Katie Darling -:- Keeping the 'exit counseling' conversation alive -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:16:30 (GMT)

__ salam -:- KD -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:59:56 (GMT)

__ Susan -:- list of therapists? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:30:25 (GMT)

__ donner -:- Keeping the 'exit counseling' conversation alive -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:32:05 (GMT)

__ Babs -:- On the benefits of therapy -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 04:36:24 (GMT)

__ __ Katie Darling -:- On the benefits of therapy -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:41:23 (GMT)

__ __ Richard -:- On the benefits of therapy -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:10:25 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:38:25 (GMT)

__ __ Katie Darling -:- Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:19:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, I'm not with you -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:41:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie H. -:- Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:50:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Hey Katie -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:57:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Hey Katie D=marijuana=drowning feelings of guilt? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:34:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Hey back, Katie -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:03:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Also, suppressing the 'dark' or 'shadow' side -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:05:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jerry -:- I'm curious, too -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 08:23:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ donner -:- I'm curious, too -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:30:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You sure about all that, donner? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:41:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- You sure about all that, donner? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:10:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- What did I say that was so wrong? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 22:04:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- What did I say that was so wrong? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:38:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- False premise, premies -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:55:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- False premise, premies -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:46:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- False premise, premies/disagree with 'trend'.. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:02:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- False premise, premies/disagree with 'trend'.. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:20:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Luck of the draw maybe? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:53:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Luck of the draw maybe? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:06:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Luck of the draw maybe?/Jim,I gotta agree w/MD -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 14:55:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh no, it's Recovery Talk! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:46:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Same for me Jim -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:37:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Donner, were you more passionate and intense than -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:05:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Donner, were you more passionate and intense than -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:29:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Donner, thanks - your tales of M's incompetence -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:24:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- guru worship addictive like drug abuse -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:06:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Addiction is NOT a good analogue for this cult -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:27:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- guru worship addictive like drug abuse -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:24:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Would 'dependency' be a better word to describe... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:00:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- I Don't Agree, Donner -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:13:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- I Don't Agree, Donner -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:42:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:09:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:47:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:28:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- You're right, John - my apologies to Michael -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:31:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- Can some of y'all work on some of this? -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:19:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Forum as a limited format -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:03:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- The Forum as a limited format -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:56:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Aint nothing much wrong with the much.. -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:14:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Well said, Dermot, cheers, here's another pint NT -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:58:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- nothing much wrong with forum I mean! nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:17:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's illogical, donner -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:06:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- That's illogical, donner -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:17:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- feeling left out -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:28:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mike, I'm with you but isn't it unavoidable? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:23:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- no dogma,hazing- Not ok:'harass the new guy'.JIM!! -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:03:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's wrong, such? Can't you read? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:34:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- sometimes subliminal truth masquerades as'joke'(nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:05:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- fuck off, will ya? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:02:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- gentle swami...... -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:34:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- r.e.aliases:rt of privacy,people's own business(nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:09:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- repecting personal space, boundaries,+ safety (nt -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:14:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Mike, I'm with you but isn't it unavoidable? -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:50:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- One other thing -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:10:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- confirming what Joe said about 'ot' -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:27:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- OTs helped me to get to know the people behind -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 22:10:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- You are correct donner -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:35:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- You are correct donner -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:00:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- to michael donner, re the forum -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:17:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- to michael donner, re the forum -:- Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:06:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- good points and hard to address -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:51:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- right on, Susan -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:43:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- I'm curious, too -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:52:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I'm curious, too -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:11:51 (GMT)

__ __ cerise -:- Marijuana = to GET HIGH -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:58:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Marijuana = to GET HIGH = fun with Victoria -:- Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 10:10:47 (GMT)

Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:16:30 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Keeping the 'exit counseling' conversation alive Message:

There has been a thread among recent-fast-disappearing threads about how to help premies exiting, what kind of therapy works, should we have a link on here to appropriate counsellors, or have another moderated forum or something. I and others who have mentioned being counsellors get a lot of e-mails, and this indicates a need that I think would be really valuable to try and fill somewhere on EPO, at least with good links. BTW, officially, 'exit counselling' refers to a particular practice developed by certain people post-deprogramming. I am using it the way Joe did below, in a generic sense. I posted the following below, as a thread was disappearing, and am reposting to keep helpful discussion going: 'Here's some quick thoughts on what I found particularly helpful in working with people (not only premies) exiting cults. I'm personally mostly on sabbatical rebuilding my bod, and not available any more for this, although I did it for years. The trouble with going to people for therapy who don't have any experience in a cult is that they can occasionally (not always) be too judgmental, without really understanding. Then the exiting person just gets a subtle experience of being fixed and shamed by an authority figure... same old same old... Here's some quick thoughts on what I found particularly helpful in working with people (not only premies) exiting cults. **Some of the stuff that needs to get cleared from the cult experience is similar to an addiction problem. One becomes addicted to the cult highs even though many other parts of one's life are falling apart. A person may transfer to another addiction (substances, for example) when leaving if the underlying roots of the addiction aren't addressed. *** Talking of addictiion...There is usually some resisted emotion or belief that holds a whole pattern of addiction in place. I've played with some of my therapist buddies at actually listing addictive substances according to the emotion that they help a person avoid (e.g. marijuana = resisted grief, alcohol = fear, coke = rage, chocolate = heartbreak or even heart-opening). I'm not being moralistic here, BTW, I'm talking about ADDICTION, which hurts oneself and others. I wonder what emotions being a premie helps one avoid? I think it is different for each person, but the sensation of personal power would seem to be a contender... and grief, fear, rage, heartbreak...? *** It's really important to tease out the various layerings of beliefs involved in a person's cult addiction. For example, there may be a layer of what we now consider unhealthy beliefs inculcated directly from MJ. This Forum is a really good place to have a lot of these beliefs reflected on and deconstructed. Then there is a deeper level of personal belief that makes one susceptible to these in the first place. Throwing off the first level of beliefs doesn't necessarily mean one has thrown off the second. For example, let's say one has (perhaps unconsciously) the underlying belief about oneself that 'I'm no good,' or that 'my personal power is too much' (and there are innumerable childhood scenarios that might tend to support such beliefs, and there may be innate tendencies too - as per some twin personality studies). Then you come along and run into MJ and it's a match! You know in your heart that he is your Lord and what he says is true, because he is speaking your deepest 'knowing' about life and yourself. It's really good to have some kind of counselling that goes deeper than just debriefing the cult experience, but also causes one to delve into the underlying patterns that brought one into it. *** It's really, really important to validate the positive experiences a person has had. Otherwise, a counsellor, as the new temporary guiding person, is once again asking the person to deny a part of themselves that has been real, just as MJ did to us. Some people on the Forum do this to premies who are wavering, probably with wellmeaning intent, but it's a bit like the birds grabbing the baby turtles as they stumble towards the ocean, as I think Joy put it...Then you just get the ole pendulum effect where people get very confused after a while and then go numb and kind of disintegrate inside, invalidating their own past positive experiences that THEY created through their effort, faith, etc... And then a person feels they have to jettison this sincere, spiritual or idealistic world-serving part of themselves. I have worked with more people in this kind of confused space than directly on their way out. *** The best person to work with an ex-premie is an ex-premie, because you can give the most realistic validation of anything the client wants to throw up as a unique, special, inarguable proof of the specialness of MJ. You've been there, done that, felt that. You are hopefully experiencing something better now. You are very helpful to an exiting person in this dual role. I just had an idea. Perhaps if there are local groups of ex-premies, they could hold an occasional invitation-only group meeting for premies considering leaving, or who left whenever, but feel they may have unresolved issues. Perhaps one or two fairly skilled people could coordinate it. These kinds of things work best, I think, with skilled facilitation by someone who is more recovered, and a lot of grass roots support where people can get to just speak and be heard, without being 'corrected.' Actually, I'd be willing to do an occasional group like this in the SF Bay area along with some of my esteemed buddies from here, whom I'm looking forward to meeting very soon... Even one time might be valuable (don't want to commit to a new job as I'm sliding out of the one I have!). Also, I could make a few suggestions about a minimalist format that might work. I bet some of you other therapist-counsellor types could too. I think this is really, really worth talking about. I haven't lost my passion for real service, and I don't think many of us have... and helping people who are trapped in a limited, fearful mindset is a real service. Yes, yes, katie darling, and so is taking care of your nasty cough a service! Yes mom! Love Katie Darling.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:59:56 (GMT) From: salam Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: KD Message:

am glad this turned out to be a good post. Nice to see you back. Salam

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:30:25 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: list of therapists? Message:

Dear Katie, I would like to see a list of therapists on the breaking free part of ex premie org. I suppose there could be concerns about endorsing these people and lawsuits. But, perhaps a disclaimer could be attached?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:32:05 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Keeping the 'exit counseling' conversation alive Message:

great post...see my comments below.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 04:36:24 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Katie Darling Subject: On the benefits of therapy Message:

I walked out of the cult twenty-two years ago but I didn't start seeing a therapist until three years ago. I called and scheduled my first appointment with him because I wanted to work on anger. I seemed to be feeling a lot of anger that wasn't directly caused by or related to the events of my life. My extremely patient husband called it 'Id Rage,' a sort of all-pervasive anger that never went away completely and flared up easily, despite the fact that I had been taking Zoloft daily, religiously (!) for about six years. So I didn't seek help from an exit-counselor. I didn't realize I still had unresolved issues with Maharaji. I didn't even mention to my therapist that I had been involved with a cult when I was in my twenties. But one day I was sitting on the floor playing with his wooden blocks, and I kept building this altar/throne platform/thing over and over, and the next thing you know I was singing twameva and arti. Very entertaining for him, no doubt. I painted a chair draped in white satin with a sunburst backdrop in rainbow colors. He asked me if I could sit in a chair like that and I was absolutely appalled. 'Of course not!' So he asked me to paint a chair that I could sit in, and I painted one of those ladderback Mexican chairs with cane seats, bright, gaudy flowers on each of the slats of the ladder. He asked me to look at both chairs and find something, anything they had in common. I looked and looked. Couldn't think of anything. Took them home. Still couldn't think of anything. Finally hit on the notion of bugs. Bugs are everywhere. Maybe they're so small we can't see them, like dust mites, but there could be microscopic bugs sitting on Maharaji's chair and on my chair, yes? I found a sheet of bug stickers from some long-forgotten little girls' birthday party, you know, the party favor collectible type stickers, and I stuck ants all over my paintings of the chairs. I stuck a big green praying mantis right in the middle of the satin-draped throne, one claw raised as if he was preaching and gesturing. I mounded ants on the satin foot-pillow; a yummy lunch for the mantis after his speech. It was fun making fun of Maharaji but it was scary, too. It wasn't until I actually revealed the four techniques to my therapist that I finally felt like I was free. Writing about my cult experiences for The Sun magazine was very therapeutic, too, as was writing my 'Journey' for this site. I'm certain I still have stuff to work through, but at least I'm off the Zoloft now. I can imagine that having another ex-premie as a counselor would save quite a bit of explanation... I can also imagine a roomful of exes draining their glasses, hurling them into the fireplace, and gleefully shouting 'that ******* bastard!' So if anybody in Denver wants the name of a great addictions counselor, Naropa graduate, who is familiar with ex-premie angst, feel free to e-mail me; and if anybody in Denver wants to drain and hurl glasses, ditto. It's almost Spring and Persephone is rising! Love, Babs

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:41:23 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Babs Subject: On the benefits of therapy Message:

He he he he. I don't remember reading about this in the Sun either. The amazing thing is that this was years after you had supposedly 'forgotten' about Miragey. I guess that's what inspires me to at least keep a conversation going about this stuff. I didn't know until I knew how much deep wounding I had, and how much help was possible, and maybe some people reading here are in the same situation. I know that I was brought up in a family that absolutely reviled anything smacking of therapy (even though my mom was an experimental psychologist - rats in mazes, you know). Then I went on to another family that absolutely reviled therapy - MJ's world. I had to be hurting pretty badly to break my own taboo and get some help. I was surprised to find how important it was in my happiness. Ah... bugs and mantises, thrones and foot-pillows. just goes to show how much FUN we can have clearing our Miragey stuff dont-it?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:10:25 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Babs Subject: On the benefits of therapy Message:

Wow Babs, praying mantis and ants? Wow. Too late for any witty observation but, wow! Which issue of Sun were you in? I've subscribed for years.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:38:25 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from? Message:

Just curious, Katie, where do you get this stuff?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 06:19:50 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Jim Subject: Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from? Message:

Don't know if you really want to know?This is only intended for people for whom it feels helpful. I'm not up for arguing, but I'm happy to tell you 'where I got this stuff,' although it was in chatting with other therapists that I put it into words. Had a lot of clients over the years into various different substances. The example you picked, marijuana: lots of people who accessed incredible creativity or mellow feelings by smoking dope, but as they greyed into their forties, mostly couldn't get creative without dope, and the 'creativity' seemed to be looping round and round. I started to notice that they were people with a lot of unfelt grief. Often, when they felt and integrated it, they were able to be creative, mellow, etc. without dope (or with). The dope had previously been a way of bypassing the sadness to get them more in touch with a part of themselves. I noticed similar things with other substances: they were bypass devices to help people get around intense unresolved feelings to a zone where things felt okay. The main point I was really making in my post was: what was the MJ and K drug helping us bypass, emotionally? Different for different people, just as my little substance rundown is just a generalization that I threw in to make this other point. And in relationship to therapeutic issues of exiting, I think that looking at what we needed it to avoid in ourselves can be helpful. And I was making the point that we may still be avoiding that, in which case we may not be really healed or recovering ourselves, just switching avoidance strategies.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:41:33 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Sorry, I'm not with you Message:

Don't know if you really want to know?This is only intended for people for whom it feels helpful. I'm not up for arguing, but I'm happy to tell you 'where I got this stuff,' although it was in chatting with other therapists that I put it into words. Katie, You've always struck me, right from the start, as a really neat, intelligent woman. Was it five years ago that we first met on alt.support.ex-cult? You and Scott Perry answered my question: has anyone ever heard of the former, teenage Lord of the Universe, Guru Maharaj Ji? You posted as 'Unlimited' and it was wonderful meeting you then. Someone, at least, remembered this bizarre trip. Fortunately for me, both of you were nice and thoughtful. Yet, even then I think we sparked a bit, you and I. I never had enough respect for your counselling world and I think that set us off against one another a bit. So what's new, eh? I'm still me and I still have some real doubts about this stuff. For example, I must say I'm not surprised by your reaction above to my question about the pot = grief theory. Why is it that you counselling types so often aver frank, non-counselling discussions about the theories you use in counselling? If yours was a scientific theory, I couldn't imagine you responding to my question with that classic, 'sensitivity' litmus test of a question: do you really want to know? What are you screening for? Sincerity? Yeah, I asked. I wanted to know. Big deal? No. No big deal. It's a discussion. Okay, so then you do elaborate, thank you very much. Here's your explanation: Had a lot of clients over the years into various different substances. The example you picked, marijuana: lots of people who accessed incredible creativity or mellow feelings by smoking dope, but as they greyed into their forties, mostly couldn't get creative without dope, and the 'creativity' seemed to be looping round and round. I started to notice that they were people with a lot of unfelt grief. Often, when they felt and integrated it, they were able to be creative, mellow, etc. without dope (or with). The dope had previously been a way of bypassing the sadness to get them more in touch with a part of themselves. I noticed similar things with other substances: they were bypass devices to help people get around intense unresolved feelings to a zone where things felt okay. What's going on here? You seem to be defending a theory -- that pot smokers have a lot of unfelt grief -- but the theory's never clearly on the table open for debate. Sorry, Katie, nothing personal, but that's what I hate about the counselling world. There's not much room for open dialogue. Say I was one of your clients, say I smoked dope and say you laid this theory on me. Say, of course, that you did it as graciously, appropriately, sensitively, kindly, patiently, warmly and caringly as possible. Sure, I'll give you all that. Indeed, I wouldn't expect that you, knowing you the little I do, would ever be any less than that (that's meant to be a compliment, by the way). Say you even did it for free. Even still, I think there'd be all sorts of pressure for me to adopt your theory no matter what I really thought and no matter whether it's really true or not. Honestly, isn't that the case? What I'm saying is that I think that counselling as a practise too easily smothers free debate. In so doing, it opens the door for all sorts of ideas that otherwise wouldn't see the light of day to find warm, sheltered comfort, comfort, perhaps, they just don't deserve. You know, you say that you and some of your therapist friends 'played around' with listing some of these 'addiction correlations'. I don't mean to be rude but did you ever stop to think that maybe you guys were just making shit up and that perhaps it's unethical to try to impose these ideas, no matter how gently, on your clients as if you really knew what you were talking about? Is it the 'play' part of the exercise that somehow makes it all alright? Where's the accountability? Or is it all somehow just a bit beyond words?

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:50:45 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Marijuana = resisted grief? Where's THAT from? Message:

Hi Katie (and as you said, this is only for people who 'want to know' - snicker) - I think those are NLP concepts, although I could be wrong. I found them helpful myself. The one I particularly remember is cigarette smoking is an anger suppressor. This is TRUE - in my experience! BTW, this COULD all be related to brain chemistry - but I doubt if it's been quantified experimentally - I think it's all empirical. Love, Katie H.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:57:38 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: Hey Katie Message:

Yes (I gave up smoking when I got K come to think of it) but.... did you get the actual point I was making (which was to use substances as an analogy and to suggest figuring out what the 'substance' ofMJ and K might have been drawn in to suppress)?? I mean, who cares about the drug stuff? Well, apparently it's an ISSUE (snicker).

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:34:20 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Hey Katie D=marijuana=drowning feelings of guilt? Message:

Any research on that? I have wondered if some people drown their conscience with lots of pot.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:03:47 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: Hey back, Katie Message:

Yes, I did get the point - but I did get sidetracked by the analogy :). A lot of people here have said that M & K has the effect of emotional retardation. I have heard so many recent exes say that they have the emotions of a 20-year-old in a 45-year-old body. Perhaps addiction to the M and K 'substance' has something to do with not wanting to take on personal responsibility? Or is this too easy? Love, Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 16:05:34 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Katie Subject: Also, suppressing the 'dark' or 'shadow' side Message:

That was a big part of it for me, as I just wanted that part of myself to GO AWAY so I wouldn't have to deal with it.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 08:23:02 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: I'm curious, too Message:

Katie, As a student of psychology, how much studying of brain chemistry have you done? Don't you think marijuana just alters brain chemistry, and in doing so just makes people creative where otherwise they wouldn't be? I'm only talking about certain individuals. Obviously, not everybody becomes a creative genius after a toke or two. But the main point I'm trying to make is that I don't think marijuana, or any other substance, opens doors or bypasses them as you suggest, to who we are. I think it just changes us because of the effects it has on our brains. I disagree that there's a 'real' us that needs to be confronted instead of being sidestepped through the use of substances and/or gurus. And to be honest, if there's some kind of substance out there that can change me from sad to happy, without me giving up my freedom, or without any longterm negative effects, bring it on. It's all just brain chemistry as far as I'm concerned, so if science ever finds that magic pill, which I'm almost certain someday they will, I'll be one of the first in line.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:30:29 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I'm curious, too Message:

this conversation is both interesting and frustrating for me...like the forum generally. someone (in this case katie d.) starts a serious thread about exit counselling and next thing we know it becomes a conversation about the pros and cons of pot smoking, brain chemistry etc. is this deliberate or unconscious sabatage? have a look at the whole list of threads today, most days and it feels very much like (to me of course) a group of friends chatting about various topics, random hits, few jokes and ...well kinda cultist really. this raises the issue that was the context for this thread in the beginning...how to most effectively present material in a way that is most useful for current premies, fence sitting premies to engage in their personal process of recovery from the m cult. now, maybe i've got the whole thing wrong and don't understand the place this forum has within the whole of the ex site. maybe the ex-site home page needs to be enhanced to steer those seeking recovery from the cult help to other corners of the site...counselling corner, keeping the best of posting corner up to date etc. but frankly speaking, i get a mixed message for the regulars posting here...seems on one hand that they (we) want to be in contact and in conversation with those working towards exiting. the other message is that its a place to chat and share jokes and inuendo with the others posting. now, of course it does not have to be either or, but many folks posting lately (my self included) spoke to being turned off to the site as a source of reliable information or conversation without trashing, and the whole thing quickly moving into trivia, blaming and flaming. maybe a separate forum for all the ot stuff perhaps. certainly i am ready to hear more about understanding the sublties of this site and its hoped for place in bring assistance to others. and one comment on katie d's original point...until we move from anger and blame...both wonderful and natural places to go and feel when leaving such a cult...and into looking at what it is within us (me) that i did...what i wanted, what i got out of the situation that i choose...then recovery is not complete. once again, there is no guru without devotee...the old velcroe concept of the hook and pin...without the hook inside me for the message of the guru there is no connection. and i believe that without figuing out that part of myself, my own needs, drives and weaknesses, i will replace the guru with something else, with other relationships similiarly structures...will find other ways to give my power away, to avoid my own power and miss making my own contribution and establishing relationships that are not co-dependent.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:41:39 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: donner Subject: You sure about all that, donner? Message:

and one comment on katie d's original point...until we move from anger and blame...both wonderful and natural places to go and feel when leaving such a cult...and into looking at what it is within us (me) that i did...what i wanted, what i got out of the situation that i choose...then recovery is not complete. once again, there is no guru without devotee...the old velcroe concept of the hook and pin...without the hook inside me for the message of the guru there is no connection. and i believe that without figuing out that part of myself, my own needs, drives and weaknesses, i will replace the guru with something else, with other relationships similiarly structures...will find other ways to give my power away, to avoid my own power and miss making my own contribution and establishing relationships that are not co-dependent. I don't mean any disrespect to you, Katie or even Katie for that matter [joke!], but I don't buy any of that. To me, this entire sentiment, complete with relevant jargon about 'co-dependency' and 'recovery' is far off the mark. Is this an open subject for you or not? The reason I ask is that I've found, right here on this forum in fact, but elsewhere as well, that people defend this kind of 'recovery' thinking with something like religious zeal at times. For instance, they're quick to brand me this or that ('in denial' perhaps?) simply for challenging the idea. How about you? Open topic or taboo?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:10:12 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Jim Subject: You sure about all that, donner? Message:

open discussion jim. no probs...but those sentiments are my current life experience and have been helping me greatly take more responsibility in shaping my life into more peace and enjoyment and greater intimacy in my relationships. but go ahead, shot (no jim, not your own foot!)

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 22:04:00 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: donner Subject: What did I say that was so wrong? Message:

My response was in direct proportion to things Katie D contends are true, like this stuff about different drugs being used to cover up various emotions. Maybe that's so (although I think marijuana is tied to grief, cocaine is tied to rage is a load of malarkey), but that doesn't mean we are running from who we 'truly' are. We're just changing it. Granted, an argument can be given that because personality changes are effected by drugs, that makes them not real, but still, I'm a little surprised that you and Katie think I've gotten offtrack by responding to that aspect of her post. She started it, not me. What am I supposed to do, just divine what's most important in what's being said and respond accordingly? If you don't want to discuss something, don't start a discussion on it. And anyway, what does exit counselling have to do with drugs to begin with? Katie seems to think there's a correlate between drug abuse and guru worship. Maybe there is, but if you ask me, that's stretching it, and not even worth investigating. If anybody needs exit counselling on anything upon leaving the cult, it's on their shattered dreams, not what they were running away from by running into the arms of their guru. It's pretty obvious what's being run away from, a cold, uncaring world. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that. So, where does somebody go to find the love and kindness they hoped would save them in the cult? That's the issue I would address. And why would somebody even run into the arms of a guru for it to begin with, when it's not really there? Got any ideas?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:38:39 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Jerry Subject: What did I say that was so wrong? Message:

hi jerry...i think they run into the arms of the guru because they think it is there...when they find it is not, they likely run into the arms of someone else, or something else thinking and hoping the same...until they finally realize that its the running elsewhere that is the issue...so the question for me is..why did i run into the arms of m, what was going on for me then and to what extent is it still going on for me now. i want to change the patterns in my life fundamentally.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:55:15 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: donner Subject: False premise, premies Message:

donner, I distinctly recall the wave of 'propagation' that caught me up and likely you too was all about selling the most alluring package possible to everyone and anyone. I can't see how getting k, at least then, was anything more than just catching a wave in the zeitgeist. It's like cocaine. Everyone was doing it in the late seventies (actually, I missed out because I was in a cult) and I think it'd be facile to suggest that people who fell prey to coke then were out looking for some giant plug to fill a gaping hole. They were just people fucking around, trying to have more fun and getting lost, sometimes with dreadful consequences, in the process. Cigarettes, same thing. Everyone smoked back in the fifties and early sixties. Is it really that useful to ask what deep dissatisfaction our parents and grandparents were seeking to resolve by smoking? No, I don't think so. They were just smoking. And how about those hordes and hordes of Indian premies? Personal issues to resolve? More co-dependency to look forward to without deep insights to 'break the cycle' (I'm not sure exactly what cycle we're talking about but there's usually one not far at all when this recovery stuff starts up)? That strikes me as all odd and beside the point. We became premies because we got caught up in a trend. It could have and indeed did often happen to just about anyone. Remember the 'all walks of life' bullshit? Well, it was true to some extent. And no, I don't think that that only means that only the co-dependent or addiction-prone non-hippie types got k. Rather, it was just the unlucky ones.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:46:08 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Jim Subject: False premise, premies Message:

jim...if it was just a big net and you were innocently swimming along then why did we (i) get caught and so many others did not. i was around many many friends at the time of 72 that thought it was crap but for some reason it did not sound like crap to me...same message, same net...where was i at at that time, what was my pattern, programming til then that resonated with the message when it clearly did not to most of my friends then? this is my side of the dance...the side i want to understand better. ya, we were caught up...why us...i contend that there is/was somethng in us that is worth understanding better.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:02:03 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: donner Subject: False premise, premies/disagree with 'trend'.. Message:

Jim-I can't completely agree with your 'trend' theory. There are parts of it that are valid, but I distinctly remember being told by every person around me, to NOT get into the guru, because he was a fraud, and a money grubber.(they don't seem so stupid now...) So, there was something pulling me towards M from within me, that was much more powerful than a 'trend'. I have always avoided trends like the plague, and when 'premie trends' came up, I could spot them a mile away, and knew them for what they were... So, I have to agreee with Mike....the knowledge craze was there, but it was more than the craze, or fad, that kept me going for so long...I believe the answer to that question is a bit different for each of us, but it might be interesting for everyone to identify the one or two main things that they think caused them to get into it, and why they stayed....it would be interesting to see how long the list went, and what it contained...

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:20:16 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: la-ex Subject: False premise, premies/disagree with 'trend'.. Message:

would be a great list. my top two would be to 'save the world' via a combination of spiritualism and socialism (cum DUO), the catholic part of me re being an apostle of the lord as the highest possible human potential so, the combination was very powerful for me...a young (fit the prophesies), charismatic leader, combining spiritualism, allowing me to be an apostle with a mission to bring peace on earth. wow. hooked for a long time to say...played into my deep sense of loyalty, boundless hopefulness that it would turn around and really start working (spread k to the world) and fear of judas story. remember the apostle who joined jesus thinking jesus was gonna free the jews and create a worldly kingdom of heaven on earth and then finding out it was not gonna be like that dispaired and betrayed...oh, not me, no way this was gonna be me....i am still a recovering catholic...all ex catholics are i think.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:53:57 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: donner Subject: Luck of the draw maybe? Message:

Hi donner, I think it's a great question, this 'why us?' or 'why me?', but I think it's got a fairly simple answer: happenstance. I mean, with myself, I know the various little things that occurred in my life leading up to my hearing satsang at a time when it would interest me. Jut a lot of little cultural things, like having a girlfriend whose whole family was into yoga. I thought that was exotic and wanted to impress her, I guess. I wanted to develop something of her older brother, Bob's, apparently 'high' presence. So that lead to Be Here Now. And that lead here and thatlead there and, next thing you know, my friends, Steve and Dave, are telling me about a guru and, guess what? I'm really into that, man! I mean, who'll try anything? The young? The naive? Anyone with a little interest in the area? I realy don't think there was any special anything, good or bad, within me that got me to check out the guru. It could have been heroin, it could have been snowboarding. All would depend on context, social influence, all that stuff. Yes, some of our friends were more cynical about all ths shit back then but then maybe they just weren't doign exactly the same reading we were. It doesn't take much to make someone even a little interested when, after all, you're being offered eternity-on-a-stick, no money down, try it, you'll like it.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:06:21 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Jim Subject: Luck of the draw maybe? Message:

hi again...one last post for the evening...jim, you sound too much like a victim...like you don't make choices and its all 'happenstance' did you say? come on jim, give yourself more credit then that...happenstance? imagine owning your own power...no one to blame just choices you are making each moment, learning from the results and making more choices...becoming a better person each time. good nite jim, warmly michael

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 14:55:24 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: donner Subject: Luck of the draw maybe?/Jim,I gotta agree w/MD Message:

Jim-I agree again with Mike. Your 'happenstance' theory sounds a little weak. With the presence you have shown on the Forum here, I can't imagine you being the type of guy who would just go with the flow, like the smokers of the 1950's... I think there's deeper reasons we all got in and got hooked for so long... I could go with 'happenstance' theory for lets say the TM movement...a lot of college kids paid their $75, got the mantra and practiced for 6 months or so...probably practice once and a while when they feel like it now....I'd call that 'happenstance', but certainly not the M stuff....remember, we all did a lot of things that went against our sense of : comfort, social respectability, career opportunities, relationship possibilities, personal power, family ties,friendships, health, wealth etc. etc. What I'm saying is that it was powerful, and their are powerful reasons why we went along for so long....'happenstance' would have knocked us out after the first year or so, like many TMers....

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:46:45 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: donner Subject: Oh no, it's Recovery Talk! Message:

Sound like the Victim, huh? Guess what, Mike. I WAS the victim. Completely. And so were you no matter how much you 'own your own power' (what does that mean, anyway?). Maharaji hit my life like a carefully prepared sting operation. I'm eighteen years old, like I said, a bit interested in spirituality. Thought the idea of a guru was kind of cool. Thought maybe there were things to experience that were out-of-this-world and all that. Get invited to the big, mansion-y house that was the ashram in Toronto. Everyone doing their subtle love-bombing thing. Then there are the pictures, the genuflection, the satsangs, let's not forget the satsangs! Then you got your shaved-headed 'holy men' coming to town. Christ, Mike, it was a set up! So I wasn't cynical enough to see thorugh it. Yeah, if there was a mistake that was it but, honestly, can you blame an 18 year old in '72 for not being cynical enough? Don't forget, there was absolutely no negative information to go by. Nothing but the hot, hot press of the guru's myth-making machine for historical context etc. No, sorry, Mike, it's absurd to say that I wasn't a victim. That's exactly what I was.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 07:37:15 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jim Subject: Same for me Jim Message:

Exactly my experience . Also 18 in 1972. Fun loving hippy kid , interested in getting high, music. Thought meditation sounded a bit exotic, like a new drug that none of my friends had tried. I wasn't looking to fill a gap just thought the premies were an evolution from hippies. They were a couple of years older than me and talking about the ultimate high, better than acid, world peace...... I didn't like maha when I first saw him...squeeky voice ..couldn't understand him..he wasn't what attracted me one bit. I prefered the baldy saffron robed ones meself.. Hal

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:05:17 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: donner Subject: Donner, were you more passionate and intense than Message:

your friends who did not fall for Rev Rawat? That seems to be something that I have found out about the exes. They are on a whole a lot more energetic and enthusiastic than ordinary folk, more idealistic, inspired and sometimes introspective. Many of the remaining PWKs seem apathetic and passive. Anyone with any sense of independence or initiative and leaders and self-starters have left.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:29:33 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Donner, were you more passionate and intense than Message:

generally true i think. tho many of my friends then were quite energetic...berkely at the time and running with some deeply commited radicals..but generally true... i wonder who is still around and getting things done sometimes these days. when i heard that the guy who was once on our bongo list of instructors is/was in charge of security (oh, sorry, safety) at the programs, i had to laugh at the irony of that one. reminded me of when m use to make instructors...there would be these huge stacks of applications and i (sometimes others, bill paterson before me with same experience as me) would 'screen' them and make recommendations (told to) and m would completely ignore those recommendations and pick some really odd duck (so to speak), saying that he could make anyone an initiator (meaning a good one, no matter how troubled or terrible a speaker, etc), 'just watch me'. and i watched how he basically put many sincere folks into those positions and situations and they fell apart completely, became sick and totally dysfunctional. his personal ego trip. it became unbearable...and then be assigned to 'clean up the mess' he had made in their lives. part of the last straw of 1984.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 09:24:29 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: donner Subject: Donner, thanks - your tales of M's incompetence Message:

and insouciance keep on opening my eyes more. I am sorry that a catholic idealist (me too - in monastery for two years before M)had to see all that stupidity combined with such power. Well, this time the Judas Iscariot's are right. Did you ever have experiences of darshan with him in ordinary situations or did that only happen during the darshan line? Don't answer if you don't want to. (By darshan I mean what Jim calls ''the big magic punch.'')

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 00:06:40 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Jerry Subject: guru worship addictive like drug abuse Message:

Katie seems to think there's a correlate between drug abuse and guru worship. Katie D is suggesting they are both addictions and I agree. Both can be treated as an addiction with the root cause being a need to fill a void or mask an emotion. Both are addictions in that when under the influence, you are powerless to stop. It's an interesting modality and perhaps useful to some. It's too bad a post that was so well intentioned causes some of us to pick apart her therapeutic musing. She clarified by saying it was an idea derived from work with her clients. The spirit of the post made sense to me as a way to view guru/devotee thing. Not hard science but a further way to demystify the dealer. People leaving M&K need help and support. If they come here it is our obligation to provide help. I think that's what she was saying and I agree.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:27:46 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Richard Subject: Addiction is NOT a good analogue for this cult Message:

I fully agree with Jerry. Katie was showing us an example of what she and her colleagues have to offer. She didn't have to give the addiction / emotional baggage examples but she did. So it's completely fair game to ask where and how she got them and why she believes they're true. I somehow doubt that if she got an unquestioning laudatory response, no one would be bitching about how irrelevant her original comments were. Challenging the idea is the real problem, isn't it? Personally, I think the addiction analogy is more misleading than helpful. For one thing, I don't really like to see addiction used for anything but real, physical dependencies because the looser, vaguer usage starts getting pretty meaningless on the margins. Everything becomes an addiction if you're not careful. Even calling things 'addictions'. In any case, addiction problems are usually all about will power and having the wisdom and strength to stay away from something. The cult, though, is different. It's never as if the cult member knows he's in a cult and just can't find the willpower to stay away. I've never heard a premie, at least, talk about the Maharaji cult that way. Have you? So there's no inner turmoil such as one finds with other addictions and perceived bad habits. Frankly, as we've seen in a number of cases, once someone turns the corner and stops letting the cult tell them how to think, they're out. Thirty year 'addictions', if you will, come to a grinding halt and that's that. Sure, the person might need all sorts of support but I don't think labelling their cult involvement as an addiction serves an purpose save to confuse.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:24:44 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Richard Subject: guru worship addictive like drug abuse Message:

Well, Richard, I don't see it as an addiction. And if some people don't like that I've challenged Katie's ideas about that as well as her notions that there are tailor made drugs for various emotions, well, that's just TFB. I consider my tour with Maharaji to be based on unfounded beliefs in a God above and that Maharji was His gift to the planet so we could know Him, and be saved by that Knowledge. I didn't get much out of following Maharaji, unlike drugs and alcohol which have a very definite affect, and do alter brain chemistry, thereby inducing addiction because of said alterations which the body comes to rely upon. No such change in physiology happens to a premie where physical withdrawal symptons are the result when you break free from the cult. Yeah, there's an emotional withdrawal I suppose, but what really happens is you just throw in the towel because M & K just ain't taking you there. But are you now left without a drug to lean upon because of it? I wouldn't look at it like that. That's certainly not what happenned to me. And while I might consider that Maharaji is a means for masking emotions, what I think he really is, is a means for chasing the dream that there really is something more than... this. That's what I went to Maharaji for. I wanted to believe it was all true, that there was a place inside me that Maharaji had the key to unlock. I was a young man who saw nothing but a vacant regimen ahead of him unless somebody like Maharaji could change that and offer me a way of life other than the drudgery my parents had in store for me. Really, it was just too much to bear, the thought that all my life was going to be was 9 to 5, and then death. Maharaji said no, no, no! Life is so much more than that! So, I checked it out. Sadly, it seems that life isn't much more than that, and Maharaji failed to deliver on his promise that it is. Now, how does that relate to addiction? And as far as exit counseling goes, for me personally, this website is all I need. If others need more, well, that's them, not me. I don't know what to do about that.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 03:00:22 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: Jerry / Jim Subject: Would 'dependency' be a better word to describe... Message:

...the relationship between guru and devotee? Wouldn't you say that's true? Personally, I quit practing K in 1987 or 1988 when I realized M was an arrogant authoritarian and I was no longer DEPENDENT upon his presence in my life. It was like breaking an addiction and it took several years of physical and emotional work to be know I should quit. I was physically holding fear in my body that had to be released before I felt safe to give up the dependency. So there may be a case for craving darshan as an addiction. In about 1993, I went to Long Beach to 'check it out' and got re-hooked by the 'drug' of nostaligia. It felt comforting and familiar (despite the bad poetry and devotional muzak) but eventually I felt myself slipping back into a depency on M and his world. Fortunately I recognized 'that feeling' and slammed on the brakes. That ol' time religion is like a drug for sure. By the way, I did defend Katie's addiction comparison by saying it may be useful for SOME people, not all. I think any way you come to the exit door is a good way. So if there are X number of premies or recent ex-es that benefit from thinking of darshan as a drug - what's the biggie? Others may find the fuel they need in simply knowing M is an alcohol abuser or abuser of devotees or a hit and runner. Very lively topic so there's obviously a huge charge around this. More food for the mind.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:13:11 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: donner Subject: I Don't Agree, Donner Message:

I don't agree. I think the diversity of subject matter and type of posts (but always tying back in to the main topic) is what makes the Forum so vibrant and interesting. Things which aren't exactly on topic are almost always marked OT, so you can choose to read that or skip over, and people also mark NT when there's no text so you don't waste time opening it. I personally like to just peruse the threads and get a great kick out of just the headers alone. I take awhile and am pretty selective about what (and who) I read on here. Sometimes I spend more time just scrolling and deciding what to read than actually reading. You can get a feel for when something's a chit-chat thread, or has some substance. I think it's a great place for ex's to network and blow off steam and jive and just hang out. There's lots more serious places on the site if people want the straight info. Just my 2¢ --Joy P.S. But one thing I do agree with you on, Michael, is your $50 bet that M doesn't read this site. I think it would be too confronting to his self-image as Perfect Master/God Incarnate to read this regularly. Recall how when Mishler and Dettmers almost had him convinced to get down off his throne he always snapped back into his God persona big time. And I can't imagine he posts either. I think ex-s flatter themselves that M is engaging in dialogue with them somehow. It's kind of sad really, like trying to get attention from your dad, who couldn't be bothered with you. No, I wouldn't hold my breath on M posting or reading here, that's for sure. He's no doubt too busy with his new yacht and Gulfstream jet.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:42:44 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Joy Subject: I Don't Agree, Donner Message:

thanks joy...good points to beef up the other parts of the site then perhaps is the idea and you are correct about it being a place to blow off steam i guess.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:09:59 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: donner Subject: I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming Message:

I agree with so many things that so many are saying here, that I am beginning to feel that there could be a very valuable addition to the EPO site in the works... I agree that the forum has its moments of greatness, including humor, insight, spirited debate, wacky humor and stories etc.and also it's moments where people may be turned off....I also think that it might be better focused on the real work of helping people: 1)understand more of the dynamics of the cult: 2)begin the questioning period, and feel OK about it. 3)talk to others about these issues, such as other exes, counselors, people willing to just listen or chat off line etc. 4)determine if they want to exit or not. 5)if they want to exit, to begin the exit process. If these objectives are to be met, we would certainly need another type of forum or page where these things could be worked on...a place where only these issues were talked about, for a specific reason and purpose. I think we might be best off if we let the Forum stay just as it is,and begin a different part of the EPO site solely for the 'exiting process'. This 'exiting' part could contain relevant articles(hopefully not too lengthy or clinical), relevant journeys,'cult list questions' to ask yourself, relevant posts from the archives that dealt with the exiting issue,a place to ask questions that could be answered by a number of people who volunteered to write once in awhile(again, not too much burden on any one person, hopefully), links to good books or articles, counselling centers and networks,possibly e-mails to talk to someone here(have to make sure we don't over-extend ourselves here again).... There really is a lot of potential here, and a chance to do a lot of good. It would have to be well thought out and discussed, but I think a simple, clear formula could emerge. We would want to make certain that nobody gets overloaded with too much work(we're all plenty busy I'm sure), and we would need to have a few discussions and some general guidelines we agreed on. I do believe that anything we did, if it was simple, clear and accessible, would be helpful. A lot of this is already here...maybe we just need to look at it all, and rearrange some of it, and put it onto a page that the newcomer is easily directed to, that states that this section is for new people considering questioning their involvement and/or leaving the cult.... I think everyone has a good point here.(maybe we're all holding a different part of the elephant). Like Donner says, the forum is interesting, but can be offputting as well.(I generally like the rowdiness and unpredictability of it). I'd favor letting it stay as is, but including another section that would be a bit more serious and educational, that really gets more to the work of understanding,leaving, healing, self-empowerment after leaving, letting go, reconciling with old friends and family members, etc... I also think that in no way should it be implied that someone could get 'free therapy' here, or that it should be attempted. But, we could certainly help 'point the way' and encourage someone to get help from the proper sources... Comments?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:47:00 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: la-ex Subject: I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming Message:

one idea might be to put a heading on the home page of names and email addresses of those of us who are willing and interested in having more conversation, uninteruptted so to speak with anyone on the fence so to speak i would put my name there for such. perhaps on rotating basis...something like what sir dave or jean michel suggested a week or so ago.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:28:01 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: la-ex Subject: I'm curious, too/Lets keep the good ideas coming Message:

Katie, I've also been thinking about this, and the idea of multiple rooms for the forum appeared in my brain (I notice someone else, sorry forgotten who, had the same idea). Not sure if it could work tho. But, I think you said we don't direct newcomers to the forum. Sorry, that's wrong. The new site page has the forum as the second item after the introduction. If people skip the into, they will come straight here. John.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:31:19 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: JHB Subject: You're right, John - my apologies to Michael Message:

It used to be on the bottom of the page (didn't seem to make much difference, though!). I apologize for the mis-statement - and thanks for pointing this out, John.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:19:33 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: la-ex Subject: Can some of y'all work on some of this? Message:

As it stands, the current section of the site that deals with exiting is called 'Breaking Free'. Brian and I wrote this in late '97/early '98 - and yes, it could stand to be updated and improved - a lot. However, I still like the TONE of the pages - I think they are accessible for people who are on the fence. La-ex, you don't have to be a computer genius to WRITE something, or come up with a synthesis and links to other parts of the site (just write out the URL's!). Also, I know a lot of y'all - including some recent exes - are in touch with each other, so you could work on this together. You don't necessarily have to make a page - just come up with the content. That is the hard part! About the idea of another forum - it sounds like a great thought, but I have to wonder who would be willing to adminster it! Take care - Katie H.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:03:54 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: donner Subject: The Forum as a limited format Message:

have a look at the whole list of threads today, most days and it feels very much like (to me of course) a group of friends chatting about various topics, random hits, few jokes and ...well kinda cultist really. I would actually say it is the opposite of a cult. It's just open discussion, although there is a general topicm and if there was anything 'cultlike' about it, you would hear screams from the participants. Yes, some people here have become friends, and sometimes familiarity breeds contempt, but more often I think it's affection, respect, friendship, support, which I don't think any of us will ever be without a need for. As Katie says, you just can't control how you would like threads to go, and I used to get frustrated with that, but that's just he way it is. Sometimes threads go beautifully, and sometimes they don't, for all kinds of reasons. I think you kind of have to let go of that. Despite all this, the Forum has been amazingly successful, I think partly due to the fact that it isn't regulated much. The website is the source of all the basic information, and the Forum also ends up as a source for the website. You and Michael Dettmers, bring up information, and that is culled from the Forum and goes permanently on the website, due to the hard work of people like Brian and J-M. And to answer your question, that seems to be the best way to do it -- to see the forum as an open discussion with a general topic, and then the website as a permanent despository of certain information that comes up on the Forum, so that people can access it permanently. This Forum isn't for everyone and was never intended to be. Some peole won't like this environment and some will. Part of the limitation is just the internet format, which isn't easily controlled, but I think in the big picture, that's a benefit. And I have also seen that some people say they hate the Forum and don't want to be hear because of the way people are, etc., but I have also seen that that sometimes isn't the real reason. Sometimes people are just not ready to deal with all this, especially in a public forum. That the Forum isn't the way they would like it to be, is I think sometimes, just an excuse. I agree about moving from anger and blame, I mean as a central focus, although all the anger may never go away, but that isn't a bad thing. One of the reasons I participate here is that I'm motivated by the fact that I wasted years of my life following Maharaji, and this allows me to do something positive about that, to take that negative thing and do something constructive with it. It isn't perfect, but it is certainly having some effect.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 01:56:11 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Joe Subject: The Forum as a limited format Message:

i guess i must seem like a control freak...just trying to say how it seems and feels to me and others who joined in recently. what are some of the signs of cultish...certainly not a cult god forbid joe...but notice the language for example...there is an in group, newcomers, use of known (to the in group) abbreviations that us newcomers need to ask about...there is the enemy..which each cultish needs...m for example...then the subtlers labelling that goes on...lurkers for example, and a group of friends even can feel warm and fuzzy to you if you arre one and a bit clickish if you are not...sharing of pictures, inside jokes...spreading of gossip and second hand stories.... joe, these are classic signs of cultish behaviour. and probably there is a place for this...but it might be that it works at cross purposes with helping others to exit, to experience this site as welcoming and non judgemental and safe...yes, they need first and formost to feel safe during the delicate process. what do you think joe? respectfully submitted

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:14:33 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: donner Subject: Aint nothing much wrong with the much.. Message:

I thinlk you've got to widen your scope rather than intensely studying it thread by thread, day by day. I'm a new poster (though not a new reader)and as far as I can over the months and years of the forums life I think there has been phenomonally relevant intelligent and illuminating posts. What are you looking for? To rid the forum of all its comics ...drek, anth, farkel etc etc To rid the forum of all its diverse personalities and characters? To rid the forum of all OT output? I could go on and on, Mike. And put in place some straight laced,middle of the road cult recovery thereaputic unit? God that'd be disastrous!! That's when you might see the beginnings of a cult( or lets call it counter-cult but it'd be the same thing). Mike, you've said your new to the net ...well I've been online for years.....don't get too frazzled by netspeak and forumspeak etc that's just the surface culture. I reckon it'd be impossible to control something as fluid,creative and dynamic as this forum. I think you'll just have to accept the good with bad. the crap with cool, the abusive with the kind....I know you PAMS are used to runing things:-) but if this place turns into some sedated vehicle, I for one would be outa here never to return ( good riddance you may say:-) } Remember not all of us are driven by some squeaky clean desire to de-cult people in a certain fashion......just being an ex-premie living a life ...working not working...blowing dope not blowing dope, drinking not drinking, following an alternative spiritual path or being an out an out atheist....and on and on it goes.....we are just people with one fundamental common link between us......ex-premies. However if people want to do things beyond the forum in a more organised way ....then do it .....all power to ya elbow,,,,BUT PLEASEEE just let the forum flow along and evolve naturally. Just expressing my opinion..... Best Regards Dermot

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 21:58:49 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Dermot Subject: Well said, Dermot, cheers, here's another pint NT Message:

k

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 19:17:31 (GMT) From: Dermot Email: None To: Dermot Subject: nothing much wrong with forum I mean! nt Message:

zz

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:06:25 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: donner Subject: That's illogical, donner Message:

i guess i must seem like a control freak...just trying to say how it seems and feels to me and others who joined in recently. Nothing wrong with that and nothing wrong, either, I hope you'll agree, with me seeming to argue with everything you say here. :) See, smiley face! That's me. what are some of the signs of cultish...certainly not a cult god forbid joe...but notice the language for example...there is an in group, newcomers, use of known (to the in group) abbreviations that us newcomers need to ask about...there is the enemy..which each cultish needs...m for example...then the subtlers labelling that goes on...lurkers for example, and a group of friends even can feel warm and fuzzy to you if you arre one and a bit clickish if you are not...sharing of pictures, inside jokes...spreading of gossip and second hand stories.... joe, these are classic signs of cultish behaviour. and probably there is a place for this...but it might be that it works at cross purposes with helping others to exit, to experience this site as welcoming and non judgemental and safe...yes, they need first and formost to feel safe during the delicate process. what do you think joe? respectfully submitted This cult analogy is bullshit, I'm afraid. It's illogical. Yes, any group of people will by definition have some characteristics in commone with a cult. Why? Because they're both groups of people. It's groups of people that share all these similiarities, like in jokes, and the like. But that's trivial. If it weren't, one would be able to say that any group of people was cultish, in part, and that completely drains the word of its otherwise potent meaning. You want tell-tale signs of cult activity here, there or anywhere, you better find some of the significant defining traits. You know, stuff like oppressive, authoritarian structure, having an unquestionable cult leader, that kind of stuff. Gossip, even among friends, won't cut it. By the way, 'lurker' is an internet-wide term for people who read newsgroups or bulletin boards but don't contribute. No one here made it up.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:17:18 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's illogical, donner Message:

yes, i went to far no doubt...but jim, try to listen to what some of the new comers have been saying about how it feels...that is the main point here...no aguments really...no significant signs of cult of course jim...not being computer person i am not aware of normal computer language (which also makes me feel like an outsider in this relm)...lurkers, trolls etc.but can you see how some of what we say here and how we say it does not feel too inclusive, welcoming? that is my point really...

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:28:19 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: donner Subject: feeling left out Message:

Hey Michael - If people are feeling left out or not included - that's important. Other people have mentioned that before - in fact, it's been brought up for years. The problem is that, as I said below, I don't see it when I'm doing that, and I don't think other people do either. So maybe you, or other people who feel that way, can gently confront some of us if we are doing that to you? Re the in-jokes and stuff like that - I'm always willing to explain them (not that they are all that funny - some of them are, though!) There are a lot of really intelligent people here who like to play with words - so you do get a lot of 'site-speak'. I think Richard's idea of a glossary (perhaps including internet terms as well) is a good one. Take care, Katie

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:23:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: donner Subject: Mike, I'm with you but isn't it unavoidable? Message:

Isn't it just human nature that people grow comfortable with each other after some time? They develop a common history, some group norms, it's all inevitable. And isn't the corollary that newcomers always feel some initial awareness of that group's environment, if not nervousness or trepidation, when they first approach? I'm a big boy now but I still feel a little something when I walk into a party. After a bit, I'm part of the group, though, and get to harass the new guy. That's the point, isn't it? [smiley face emoticon in an abundance of caution] Jim The Insider

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:03:25 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Jim Subject: no dogma,hazing- Not ok:'harass the new guy'.JIM!! Message:

this ain't no frat -- no hazing. They even banned that shit in the US Marines. Leapin' lizards and Moldy Madeleine O'Hare's bones!!! C'mon, man, we already went through this bs. Let's don't keep reinventing the wheel here. no steps backward. get with the program of what lots of people have been saying. Frankly, I thought you were doing really well here of late with your 'cooler' attitude. with the groovier vibe, Look at all the folks pickin' up the pieces, and making this joint feel really alive!! 'I get to harass the new guy'. and maybe get your ass dumped on, too, by everybody else again, and again -- duh! So, get that supercilious smirk off your face, man. That ain't even funny, anymore... donner & co. aren't djuro and some of those other bleeping dweebs (who clearly deserve whatever they get - as well as 'you know who'). Save the smarmy sarcasm for the real shitheads. I thought you grew up, man. C'mon Jimbo. If this is a party, then let's welcome the newcomers to truly party hearty! make 'em feel comfortable, so they can unleash their inhibitions and FEEL GOOD. A lot of people haven't felt good, Jim, because of this miragey shit - and then the fallout hurts, too, for many. Even discussing it revives a lot of stuff inside that people have kept suppressed - often for many years. You still got anger yourself [and have said as much (even though you weren't even sucked in all that many years)] -- meaning that your shit on the subject ain't all worked out, either. no slip slip sliding - you ol' backslider insider. haha We're all bozos on the bus. You're right that, like any group, it takes awhile for people to feel comfortable with each other. donner and others will come to understand that fact - it's human nature. Also, just because someone just posted here doesn't necessarily mean they are new to the ex-thingy-wingy. Some people have also been through some changes you or I probably haven't even seen or it made it through yet, too. There's no dogma here. And people like Patrick also need to lay off, too, as you correctly pointed out yesterday with their own agendas of peer pressure. People need a comfort zone around their personal space, vs in-your-face. Most of us just wanna be Free and safe to express who we are, not a new cult mentality. So, let's roll out the welcome mat! C'mon, bro, plug in the Fender and on with the show -- and let's have some good-time rock-n-roll! The more the merrier... Peace and lentils, yo' bro PS also, some of these new posters have some valuable and helpful information, councilor! piecing together the whole puzzle, helping each other make sense of what was not fully comprehensible - because it had been long concealed -- now revealed.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:34:56 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: such Subject: What's wrong, such? Can't you read? Message:

I'm a big boy now but I still feel a little something when I walk into a party. After a bit, I'm part of the group, though, and get to harass the new guy. That's the point, isn't it? [smiley face emoticon in an abundance of caution] THAT's what you're jumping up and down about? That joke? That most obvious joke? The one I even went out of my way to telegraph as such even though at the time I thought 'really, who'd be stupid enough to miss this one?'? Sorry, such, but I'm not sorry about nothing. This is ridiculous.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:05:48 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Jim Subject: sometimes subliminal truth masquerades as'joke'(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 06:02:39 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: such Subject: fuck off, will ya? Message:

Come on, such, I don't need you to psychoanalyze me. Remember last time? It was a joke, such. You know? Like your puns? A joke?

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 04:34:26 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: such Subject: gentle swami...... Message:

You said: ''There's no dogma here. And people like Patrick also need to lay off, too, as you correctly pointed out yesterday with their own agendas of peer pressure.'' Which Patrick did that in what post? Not me! I have five dogs but no dogmas.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:09:58 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: r.e.aliases:rt of privacy,people's own business(nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 05:14:16 (GMT) From: such Email: None To: such Subject: repecting personal space, boundaries,+ safety (nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:50:44 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mike, I'm with you but isn't it unavoidable? Message:

good question...is it unavoidable? perhaps to some extent not. is it worth being aware of the need to be inclusive and to create a safe envirnoment for the sake of the purpose...and can we elevate our awareness to allow this to happen? i am just trying to contribute to that process. do you do much mediation work in your lawyering business? mediation requires creating safe environments as a first step towards the possibility of acturally joining together...not falling apart.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:10:06 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: One other thing Message:

I have actually heard recent ex-premies say they appreciated seing the ex-premies here entering into 'off-topic' threads. I think it was important to them to see us as people with all kinds of viewpoints and interests, personalities, etc. And that certainly comes accross. This helps mitigate against the idea that we are just a bunch of hateful, negative people who refuse to move on, being obsessed with opposition to Maharaji. What comes up in those off-topic threads is that the ex-premiesl are a varied and talented group of people who are doing lots of things in their lives that have nothing whatsoever to do with either Maharaji, or opposition to him.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 20:27:48 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Joe Subject: confirming what Joe said about 'ot' Message:

Hi Joe - VP (who you will remember) told me that the only reason he began posted on the forum is because he read an exchange between you and me where we were talking about NFL football (snicker!). That convinced him that we were 'normal people' and not just a bunch of weirdos. Boy, we sure fooled him :)! Love, Katie

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 22:10:25 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: OTs helped me to get to know the people behind Message:

names. To get a feel of their characters and trust some and dismiss others. Perhaps a section for newly exiting cultees would be good. I have thought that several forums might help. Each dedicated to certain topics: new exits, philosophical discussions, cult history and reminiscences, baby throwing contests etc. Just kidding baout the last one. But you catch my drift I hope.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:35:19 (GMT) From: Richard Email: None To: donner Subject: You are correct donner Message:

Your points are all well said and much needed. The forum is all of those things and it is sometimes frustrating to see a well intended idea devolve into squabbling or one upmanship. I lurked (read but did not post) here for a couple of years, partly from a National Enquirer guilty pleasure but mostly for the chance of occasionally reading a thread that would help me. In the past several months, the quality and consistancy of information I find useful has increased. But still, if I sent a friend here, they may find powerful revelations or in-house squabbling depending on the day's content. Frustrating to not know for sure they'll get the message. A few observations about this forum: • It's made of a diverse group of former devotees of Maharaji plus the stray current devotee. Some will agree with a point, some disagree and others pick up on some minor detail and derail an otherwise good topic (as you said about this one). • A lot of really good information gets exchanged here concerning the truth about M. Some is heresay or inuendo and there should be more accountability. • A lot of banter takes place as an escape valve / comic relief. It's much needed. Off topic threads are begun with OT in the header and this is useful. • Another site called Anything Goes was started to handle a lot of the flame wars and OT stuff. (You should have read here before that was started.) • Every new poster contributes his / her unique viewpoint. Every day it seems, there are more viewpoints arriving. For example your comments above helps raise the bar in terms of staying on purpose. • There is a huge amount of information available on the website at http://www.ex-premie.org (button at the top of this page) other than what's posted here. Unfortunately, newcomers probably come to the forum and never see the other stuff. That does need attention. • This site was created by and run by volunteers and the content is ever evolving. Again, the intention of the site is ever changing - hopefully towards staying on purpose. It is important for me to remember my purpose here as you said above your purpose was to figure out the guru / devotee - velcro thing. My purpose here is to: • Figure out the Richard that was drawn to GMJ and Knowledge in 1972. • Keep alive the parts that are healthy (inspired, passionate, creative, etc) and let go of the destructive ones (giving power away, self worth projected on others, not taking responsibility for my choices). • Tell the truth about myself in relation to M&K and hopefully help others while doing so. When I remember those things before posting, my posts are (IMHO) much more effective.

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:00:52 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Richard Subject: You are correct donner Message:

well said thanks for sharing the backgroud and insights.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:17:39 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: donner Subject: to michael donner, re the forum Message:

Hi Michael - You wrote: this conversation is both interesting and frustrating for me...like the forum generally. someone (in this case katie d.) starts a serious thread about exit counselling and next thing we know it becomes a conversation about the pros and cons of pot smoking, brain chemistry etc. is this deliberate or unconscious sabatage? I'd have to say unconscious, and I don't think the people who derail the threads think of it as sabotage, but rather as standing up for their personal beliefs. For example, someone can (and has) write a brilliant post about their ideas about M's motivation and psychology, and then end the post with something like 'M is a typical Saggitarius'. The thread then ends up being an argument about the validity of astrology. I see this as 'off topic' but many people here do not. Also, some people here are quite against any form of counseling or therapy, as you may have gathered. I'm glad Katie D. keeps bringing it up, personally - and it sounds like more people on the forum NOW are able to relate to what she has to say. One thing I've observed over the years on the forum is that threads tend to degenerate into off-topic, arguments, and jokes as they get longer. (Maybe because of the law of entropy - snicker!) This isn't always the case, though, so it can be frustrating trying to find relevant posts. You wrote: have a look at the whole list of threads today, most days and it feels very much like (to me of course) a group of friends chatting about various topics, random hits, few jokes and ...well kinda cultist really. In my experience, lots of on-line forums are like this - in-jokes, personal friends talking to each other, and so forth. I really wouldn't call it 'cultist' - I think that's a bit extreme. The problem is that you really do not notice the clubbiness of the forum when you are IN it - so I think it's good for people to keep bringing the subject up. this raises the issue that was the context for this thread in the beginning...how to most effectively present material in a way that is most useful for current premies, fence sitting premies to engage in their personal process of recovery from the m cult. now, maybe i've got the whole thing wrong and don't understand the place this forum has within the whole of the ex site. maybe the ex-site home page needs to be enhanced to steer those seeking recovery from the cult help to other corners of the site...counselling corner, keeping the best of posting corner up to date etc. Actually, the homepage doesn't steer people towards the forum, in my opinion, anyway - it's at the bottom of the page of links, and you have to go through the forum introduction page first. BUT, the forum seems to be the page that everyone wants to look at first. It's obvious that some new posters here don't bother to look at the rest of the site first - understandable, I guess, but frustrating. but frankly speaking, i get a mixed message for the regulars posting here...seems on one hand that they (we) want to be in contact and in conversation with those working towards exiting. the other message is that its a place to chat and share jokes and inuendo with the others posting. now, of course it does not have to be either or, but many folks posting lately (my self included) spoke to being turned off to the site as a source of reliable information or conversation without trashing, and the whole thing quickly moving into trivia, blaming and flaming. The forum IS both - and also I can tell you that it is extremely difficult to control the content of the forum without alienating people (and without severely stressing the FA's). I used to post on another ex-premie forum where there was an attempt made to control content, and it was difficult to post 'acceptably' there. There is always going to be a certain amount of chit-chat (OK) and unsubstantiated gossip, blame, and flame (not so OK) on here because the discussion is not moderated - or is very lightly moderated. I'm sorry if this turns people off - really! - but I don't think I or anyone else wants to get into controlling what people post here. And it does tend to be dynamic and ever-changing - sometimes you'll get a week of really relevant and helpful posts, and then sometimes you'll get a week of chit-chat. I do think, though, the 'in-group' thing that you mentioned could be somewhat corrected if people were more aware of it. As I said earlier, it's hard to see it when you're IN it. And I think a certain amount of personal communication and reinforcement is good, honestly. You wrote: maybe a separate forum for all the ot stuff perhaps. certainly i am ready to hear more about understanding the sublties of this site and its hoped for place in bring assistance to others. The original concept for this forum was that it was a place for ex-premies to connect with each other. It wasn't necessarily meant as a place for 'helping others' (if by that you mean people no the fence, or current premies who are struggling.) It was mostly a place for exes to connect, talk about their experiences, meet old friends, etc. It's evolved into a lot more than that - but that was the original intention. Anyway, as I said, I am sorry that people are turned off by the forum. I agree that it is imperfect, chaotic, anarchistic, unfocused, argumentative, disagreeable - BUT, it's what it is: a dynamic system powered by the people who post here. As I said, I've also been very frustrated by it, but have learned to accept it. I don't think anyone can change the forum without posting on it - and, even then, they might not change it very much - depending on the mood at the time. Take care - Katie H. P.S. and BTW, I think an 'ot' forum is a good idea. One does exist (Sir David's 'Anything Goes', but it's not used by very many people. Most of the people who use this forum are interesting and intelligent and would like to hear each other's opinions on 'ot' stuff (news, movies, music, science, religion, etc.)

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Date: Mon, Mar 26, 2001 at 02:06:42 (GMT) From: donner Email: None To: Katie H. Subject: to michael donner, re the forum Message:

as a newcomer, thanks for the background and info...i'm beginning to get the picture more clearly...so i'll keep adding my voice to the mix for the time being. warmly

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 18:51:50 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: donner Subject: good points and hard to address Message:

I think we should make an effort to direct new people toward reading the ex premie site as a whole, and then the best ofs.... I think there is more than one dynamic on the board. I do think that the primary purpose is to help people out of the cult, expose the cult, and help us all clear out the cobwebs of the cult But, we in the proccess make friends, and start engaging in 'chit chat', and we have had threads on OT things such as the academy awards, the Clinton/Lewinsky scandal, the election...endless stuff about Chomsky and evolutionary psychology. And the topic of limiting the discussion to on topic has come up before. The biggest argument against it is the common experience we all shared...the cult. Anything that smacks of censorship tends to set off our ex cult member antennae. We may have to put up with the rambling and hard to get to the good stuff nature of the forum for the sake of freedom of speech. There are a few rules, no threats, no using anothers handle...I am sure more, but the rules are quite minimal. One idea would be to divide discussion by topics as is done on other net boards. One could come to a main board directory, and see 5 topics lets say...recent ex's, old time ex's, ex PAM, off topic posts and imposters....just kidding. But we could pick 5 topics. I am just not sure I like the idea, but it is something we could explore.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 19:43:30 (GMT) From: Katie H. Email: None To: Susan Subject: right on, Susan Message:

And the topic of limiting the discussion to on topic has come up before. The biggest argument against it is the common experience we all shared...the cult. Anything that smacks of censorship tends to set off our ex cult member antennae. We may have to put up with the rambling and hard to get to the good stuff nature of the forum for the sake of freedom of speech. This is so true - we used to make jokes about being FA's on a forum where EVERYONE has (understandable) issues with authority - and that includes the FA's themselves. It's not easy - and the FA's often get flak for enforcing even the few rules that exist here.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 15:52:05 (GMT) From: Katie Darling Email: None To: Jerry Subject: I'm curious, too Message:

Thanks for your comments. Funny how my actual point seems to have gone to the sidelines. Did you think I was moralizing against marijuana? If you read my original post, I made it clear that I wasn't, and in my response to Jim, I said that after clearing grief, the people I was describing could be creative without dope, OR WITH. I'm all for creative chemistry. Nuff said. Do I think 'there's a 'real' self that needs to be confronted instead of being sidestepped through the use of substances and/or gurus' as you put it? Not 'confronted.' There is certainly a self with less stored-up, unfelt, unacknowledged sadness/fear/anger that feels GOOD. love Katie Darling

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 17:11:51 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Katie Darling Subject: I'm curious, too Message:

Katie, (or should I call you 'darling'? Is that your real name?) I was just homing in on one aspect of your post which sparked some of my own ideas about brain chemistry and how that makes us who we are. But I understand the gist of your post is about exit counselling. While I agree that it might be a good thing for ex-premies and premies on the fence to meet and share their experience, I don't agree that 'skilled' moderators are called for. I think just letting people get together and hashing it out, in person, much the same way it's done on this forum is all that's required.

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 03:58:51 (GMT) From: cerise Email: None To: Jim Subject: Marijuana = to GET HIGH Message:

good one Jim, that really annoyed me, all this 'classification' therapy analysis prognosis, a really good money spinner for the new age spindoctors, there's hundreds here and mum's seen them all!! What's wrong with... marijuana = to GET HIGH! oh yea sorry I forgot, I'm just a stupid young chick (pretending to be god knows what) No, a god knows what pretending to be a stupid young chick! who actually thinks she's really smart!! :C

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Date: Sun, Mar 25, 2001 at 10:10:47 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: cerise Subject: Marijuana = to GET HIGH = fun with Victoria Message:

It takes one to spot one, angel-tits. Sorry to steal your thunder, Thelma Oh what fun. Let's get stoned together at the next Latvian Night, Vicki.

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