Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 14:09:00 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Jondon: 'Sounds familiar' Message:

On Wed, Oct 18, jondon posted 'sounds familiar' Message: I found this today whilst having coffee and perusing the local fishwraps. It is awfully similar to stories I have heard here, both from the authors standpoint and the Master she followed. Seems as though there is only one way these kinda egomaniacal type can go. http://projo.com/cgi-bin/story.pl/yourlife/04391951.htm This link is no longer working, but it was 'Debbie's' account of her experience with Jim Jones and the People's Temple. I copied a bit of it, thinking of posting it. It seems relevent in this thread, so I'm hoping that Jondon can help find the link, or that Marianne knows where it can be found. Here is what I copied: Debbie's first steps across that line came when she met an articulate, handsome man in San Francisco who persuaded her to join the Peoples Temple. She was 17 at the time. Her first thought was 'Gosh, I don't know about this.' But Jim Jones had all the answers. 'Debbie, you know that's selfishness,' the father told her. That's what Jones called himself. The father. 'I know it's hard to give of yourself. It's hard not to see your mom and dad and it's hard not to go out and smoke with your old friends. But this is for the greater good of mankind, Debbie. Don't you think you could help the poor and the needy and give up that selfishness of yours?' Debbie explains what took her so many years and so much pain to finally understand. 'That voice inside me that Jim Jones told me was selfishness, that's your ability to reason. That's your conscience. When you're told to mute that, you've lost your inner compass. You become a blind follower.' Which is what Debbie became. Along with hundreds of others. You are special 'Jim Jones made every person who came to a meeting feel so special. We're all yearning for that,' Debbie tells me. Ironically, perhaps the grandest delusions belonged to the one who conceived them in the first place. According to Debbie, Jim Jones spun a web of lies around himself so thick eventually there was no way out. It's this end-justifies-the-means type of thinking that can color our perspective, make us do things, believe things. And the next thing you know, we've stepped over the line. A line that suddenly looks awfully thin and awfully blurry.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 22:40:20 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Marianne Subject: It could be worse Message:

There was that cult in Africa recently whose leader kept saying the world was going to end. Every time it didn't end the cult leader (a woman) put the date forward in order to keep the devotees faithful. After several of these false ends, the cult followers were getting restless and starting to revolt because they'd given all of their material possessions to their cult leader in the belief that the world would end soon. Finally, realising there really was going to be a revolt and that all her devotees would get wise to her and turn against her, the cult leader got all of her devotees into big barns which had been converted into 'churches' and told them to wait for the end of the world which was nigh the next day. She had all the barn doors locked so that all of the devotees were trapped inside and then she set fire to the barns and burned all of her devotees alive, every last one of them. She then did a runner with all of their money and is still at large today.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 03:03:52 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: It could be worse Message:

David: She had all the barn doors locked so that all of the devotees were trapped inside and then she set fire to the barns and burned all of her devotees alive, every last one of them. She then did a runner with all of their money and is still at large today. The death penalty hardly seems adequate, does it? --Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 29, 2000 at 23:53:17 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: hardly adequate Message:

The death penalty does seem hardly adequate in cases like these. What about war criminals, serial murderers, sadistic rapist/killers, or extremely dangerous inmates that pose a threat to other inmates or have a history of escaping? While I don't believe in the death penalty as revenge and probably not as a deterrant, what about the money spent keeping these scumbags alive? The same money could be used to feed starving people, innoculate people against diseases, protect the environment, etc. Of course, one could say just raise more money, or spend less keeping the assholes alive, or somehow make use of their sorry lives. Or that executions make a statement that murder is justified sometimes, which may not be a good statement to make, that this outweighs any other issue involved. Or that it's just not right, period. But maybe it is justified sometimes, say to protect other people. Then there are cases where someone commits unpremeditated murder and the circumstances are involved. To turn around and murder them seems quite hypocritical. I don't know, I find it to be a moral dilemma in the most severe cases.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 15:07:51 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: It could be worse: kinda like Waco, huh? (nt) Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 23:04:27 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Sir Dave Subject: From the archives... 'THIS WAY ARMAGEDDON' Message:

A Guardian report I posted a couple of years back. Thanks indeed for Sir Dave's marvellous, as-yet-incomplete, but soon-to-be-unveiled Archive Search Engine (did that sound like a hint, btw..?) Sorry about the paragraphs. They seem to get scrunched in the archives. >>> The following report comes from The Guardian (UK), January 17. It is the first instance I am aware of, of a mass suicide waiting to happen (while it is at least still possible to dive in there and get the kids out...) I'll pass it on without further comment, save to describe the accompanying four photographs: (1) Shows Mount Teide - a volcanic heap without a single blade of grass, let alone a few trees to give an air of romantic quest. (2) Heide Fittkau-Garthe, the movement's guru. She looks a bit Judy Collins-ish: long-haired, cheeky sort of smile and dimple-cheeked. Your mother would approve. (3) A middle-aged lady cult member sitting in a police car, her face a picture of blissed-out abandon. She looks like a premie remembering 'The Word'. (4) A photo of a Solar Templar, dead and wrapped in a sheet. (start of Guardian article) > THIS WAY ARMAGEDDON Is this the road to hell? Members of a German cult which is determined to commit mass suicide on Mount Teide have been thwarted twice. Will it be third time unlucky? Special investigation by Rory Carroll with Adela Gooch in Madrid, Denis Staunton in Berlin and Jonathon Watts in Tokyo. 'Tonight, as the sun slides into the Atlantic and casts Tenerife into darkness, the men from Policia Local will flick on their headlights and trundle towards Mount Teide. The chatter from bars and pounding disco beats will fade into silence as their white Ford and Seat patrol cars begin ascending the 12,198ft volcano. Trees quickly thin out, leaving only a barren landscape on either side of the narrowing dirt track. The policemen will keep peering into the blackening gloom, looking for signs of life, fearing they will find only death. It is here that a doomsday cult has chosen to commit mass suicide. Come twilight, 13 men, 13 women and five children, members of a German cult, could emerge from the shadows around the summit and drink from drums of poison. If all goes according to plan, they will make a clearing among the rocks, lie down, close their eyes and slip away, leaving behind 31 corpses, shattered families and a catastrophe for the authorities. That is the grim outcome the Spanish police must now try to avoid. The challenge is not a theoretical one: on January 7, after months of monitoring, they did just that. Tipped off by Interpol, they raided an organic farm in Arafo, near Santa Cruz, the island's capital and arrested 32 cult members, some huddled in tents, just hours, it is thought, before a planned mass suicide. A 'last supper' with suspected poison was removed. Then last Monday there was a second alert when reports came through that some of the cult members had phones relatives back in Germany to say a final goodbye. This time the Spanish police took no chances and rounded up the group, now reduced to 16 adults and three children, and took them into protective custody overnight. But in Spain committing suicide is not an offence, and on Tuesday morning the group, all German except for one Spaniard, were released for a second time. They promptly piled into taxis and returned to Arafo, where the eyes of the world now watch, waiting for them to emulate the departed souls of Heaven's Gate, Solar Temple, Waco and Jonestown. The police are desperate. The cult is law-abiding and entitled to go about its business without harassment. 'We can monitor the situation but we can't control people's will,' an officer involved in the case said. 'What do you do? Follow each person into bed, into the bathroom? That's impossible. But then, if they do succeed, who gets the blame...' A patrol car stand guard outside the farmhouse but 24-hour surveillance on individual members is impossible. And if they were spotted about to drink poison, what would the police shout? 'Stop or I shoot'? Not much of a threat when members believe the apocalypse is nigh and that an alien spaceship will land on the Teide volcano and take their souls to rebirth in the solar system of the star Sirius. So it has become a race against the clock. The end of the world, the cult believed, was due at 8pm sharp on January 8. It clearly didn't happen then. But how much longer will it be before the group tries, successfully, to commit collective suicide? Whether it comes to this hinges on one issue: do the 31 members really believe, without an ounce of doubt, that a spaceship will pick up their bodies? That the world is about to end? That God has taken human form in the portly body of a 57-year old German psychologist, Heide Fittkau-Garthe, their inspiration and leader? Yes, seems to be the answer. And they say it calmly, reasonably, without bulging eyes or foam at the mouth. Most are, after all, decent, university educated, middle-aged, middle-class Germans. Space cadets don't come more respectable. Their road to Mount Teide began in crowded halls around Germany where Fittkau-Garthe, a respected lecturer at Hamburg University and a TV pundit, gave seminars to captivated businessmen on management training, meditation and dealing with personal trauma. Unknown to most of her audiences, she drifted into the Indian Brahma Kumaris sect before leaving the university in 1993. Divorced, with a 21-year-old son, she developed a divine cult around her own person and called herself Aida, or the source. She recruited a hardcore of 25 disciples from her seminars and divided her time between Hamburg and Tenerife, where she owns the farmhouse at which the cult members were discovered last week. She told them the unresolved past of wandering souls was the source of all aggression. Cassettes recorded her ideas in a soothing voice against a background of synthesiser music. Neighbours in Tenerife described Dr Fittkau-Garthe as a pleasant woman who spent regular periods on the farm. She herself claimed her visitors were patients who had come to the Canaries for therapeutic rest. Enrique Torres, her lawyer, says members of the group were on holiday and denied any intention to commit suicide. In this account, Fittkau-Garthe is a humanitarian providing safe haven for abused women and people with psychological problems. But this fails to explain why, according to relatives of disciples, some members had begun by last year to call her God. Or why she said the world would end on January 8 and that she would protect them. Inspired by the Order of the Solar Temple, whose followers carried out mass suicides on Canada, France and Switzerland, they didn't intend to be among the doomed losers left on Earth. Sirius beckoned. It was simply a question of hitching a ride with aliens via ritual suicide. Beam me up potty, as the Sun said. And they're not even mad, or even necessarily gullible. According to some mental health professionals who study cults, they are just like us: worried at the direction society is taking, not sure what they want out of life and vaguely dissatisfied with job and family. Barry Hart, a clinical psychologist, says the typical cult member was often bright and had potential earning power - which is why they were recruited. 'It's the sons and daughters of people who read the Guardian, not the Sun. They turn their backs on orthodox religion but have needs for spiritual growth, a genuine search for meaning in life. Crazy people don't usually get into cults.' Dr Hart estimates that Britain contains up to 500 cults with up to 500,000 members. The approaching millenium is likely to swell that number. Neither coincidence nor cheaper rents result in so many cults locating in remote areas. Cut off from friends, family and the outside world, members become rationed to one source of information, the leader. Often with no TV, no radio, no newspapers, there is nothing to question the increasingly doom-laden world-view they are fed. Chris Soames did not quite fit the bill when he drifted into the London Church of Christ in 1990, but the Spanish police combing Mount Teide are unlikely to take comfort from his story: 'People think you become a slave with no mind of your own; that simply isn't the case. You have to be more active and believe what you are doing is right.' Despite retaining links with his family and resenting the oppressive hierarchy, Chris, who left the cult three years ago, was at one stage willing to die for it. 'We planned to smuggle [ourselves] into Iran to seek converts. If we were caught we would've been killed, but I didn't care because I felt absolutely sure we were right.' Such cast-iron certainty among cult members is what spurs the patrols around Mount Teide and makes Dr Hart pessimistic: 'The Spanish police will not prevent people killing themselves. If they want to do it, they'll do it.' Any lingering doubts in the cultist's minds about the wisdom of suicide are likely to have evaporated the moment they were arrested. A Roman battering ram persuaded 1,000 Jews at Masada to commit suicide in AD73. Fears that visiting congressmen heralded the break up of Jonestown prompted the Reverend Jim Jones and 914 followers to turn the Guyana jungle into their graveyard in November 1978. A law enforcement siege signalled a conflagration for David Koresh and his Branch Davidians at Waco, Texas, in April 1993. Such precedents will hardly warm the hearts of the Santa Cruz police officers. The first glimpse of their blue shirts bursting in the door could have been confirmation to Fittkau-Garthe's disciples that exit from the cosmic set was finally set. The one ace held by police is Fittkau-Garthe herself. She remains in custody, charged with incitement to suicide, which is an offence under Spanish law. Unless she really is God she is not able to communicate with her cult. Conditioned to obedience and dependency, what do they do now? Stick with plan A and head for Mount Teide? Sit tight and wait? Get a good lawyer? Some reports say half of the sect have returned to Germany. But even if true the remnants, judging by precedent, remain a serious liability to Tenerife's fun-loving reputation. Jehovah's Witnesses have stayed loyal through several false Armageddons. More worrying still, many followers of the Aum Supreme Truth cult have rallied to their imprisoned leader, Shoko Asahara, since the 1995 Sarin gas attack on a Tokyo subway, and more than a third of those members put in prison have returned to the cult, fearful that they would go to hell if they remained outside it. Heaven's Gate, whose members committed suicide en route to a spaceship trailing the Halle-Bopp comet, is back in business recruiting on the Internet. So tonight policemen will resume their vigil on top of Mount Teide. Standing amid the rocks and boulders, the archipelago splayed out below will melt into the darkness from 7pm as lights from bars and discos begin to glimmer. Even in winter Sirius, a solar system away, can be seen clearly. Tenerife's tourist board says it looks very pretty.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 21:27:00 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Marianne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

Another great post Marianne. Keep taking those vitamins! I was also reminded of a fairly recent made-for-TV drama called 'Fire on Mount Carmel' - the inside story of the pre-seige Waco cult. How in the latter days David Koresh started calling himself the 'Dirty Messiah' - being the only one among them who could take on all the sinful desires of his followers and act them out on their behalf. (Yeah, right....) Thus, his male followers were forced to become celibate whilst their wives (and their borderline-adolescent daughters - yuk!) were enticed to share their sexual favours with the cult boss. And they obliged. Same compliance/obedience/conformity processes which click-in wherever you have an 'enclosed' community (physically or psychologically) whose faith in the Master is total.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 20:25:44 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Marianne Subject: The Day after Jonestown. Message:

It was a Sunday Morning. I remember the big newspapers at the desk at the Community Center at 17th and Emerson in Denver. The big headlines and the horrific images. And I remember the dialogues (inter- and intra- personal). Would you kill yourself if Maharaj Ji told you to? The stock answer, of course, was that he wouldn't! 'Yes' would sound fanatical, and 'No' would sound way under-surrendered. But, nevertheless, I remmber feeling a strangely disquieting undercurrent that morning. I think a lot of us realized, at some level, that we WERE in a cult. Benign, but only insofar as cults went.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 23:32:22 (GMT) From: Rick Email: None To: Gregg Subject: The Day after Jonestown. Message:

I remember that day too. I was at a 'retreat', in Kauai, headed by Jagdeo. He'd been giving heavy satsang all week and the devotion trip was at its peak. Then the news broke. I'm not sure how we found out because there were no TV's or radios being used. But somehow Jagdeo learned about it and informed us. Then he gave a long satsang (lecture) on how false prophets will appear but that they're manifestations of mind. I'm pretty sure Jagdeo didn't get a chance to spend any time alone with children that week.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 19:54:10 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Boy, was I ever naive! Message:

Good post, Marianne. The funny thing is I used to proudly distinguish our group from 'cults' on the basis that we were straight up and honest. Why not? We had nothing to hide. Plus we were all brothers and sisters and that had to count for lots, I figured.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 03:31:04 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: Boy, was I ever naive! Message:

St James, I know you might have been sensitive because of that Nigel thread of a week ago. I didnt read the thread because I cant hear criticism of you. I am not professing love here, or offering valentines like you so freely gave out recently to PREMIES on the forum! And I wont mention the L word you used in Mike Dettmers direction. I have a blind spot to any greviences about you voiced by others because of your fine work here. And your help when I first got here. So when Anonomousie shows up, I dont give a shit about how others think about it or how you might think it makes you look. I do it to roast you and cmon, did you laugh at that golf thing or not. I dont even care if newbies know the story of how you created her and disposed of her. I dont care if they misunderstand. You made her fiesty and she lives. SO, dementia aside, at least say fuck you but dont say nothing!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 22:01:17 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: bill Subject: Boy, was I ever naive! Message:

Bill, OF COURSE I liked the post. What's not to like? I mean, of course, of course. Thanks,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 03:23:48 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: Boy, was I ever naive! Message:

At the time, I thought I would get you really laughing. Maybe it is too hard, or harsh, but then again, scorned woman and all that. A tip of the hat for your M Dettmers efforts. I guess you've earned another box.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:29:35 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

A chilling correlation there, Marianne. Of course, what's even more chilling is that a similar course of events could lie in store for the Maha. I was there in Poona when Rajneesh said that 'Jonestown could never happen here'. Little did I suspect that, just a few years down the line, he would have a Waco-like community (only larger) armed to the hilt, provoking the local populace and claiming that the stockpiling of armaments was a justified precaution against their (i.e. the rest of the world's) 'prejudice'. Remember that story of the premie who was proud to say she would cut off her own head for Maharaji? It might be a contradiction in terms to call her ilk 'die-hards' (since they, apparently, were so willing to embrace death). But I'm sure there are some 'die-hards' around the Maha who'd love to prove their belief-system to be right. Even at the cost of their own life, if necessary. I wonder - is that kind of death-wish only confined to cultist behaviour? Anyway, a very interesting post from you, Marianne, and thanks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:04:21 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Another great post, Marianne Message:

Thanks again. I really appreciate your posts, and your ability to integrate the revelations about Maharaji with your personal experience with the People's Temple. The scariest thing about the People's Temple incident for me is that the people who were involved were just like me or you. I would like to think that I would have been smart enough to see through Jim Jones, but I know, by experience, that I wouldn't have been. This is frightening. Personally, the 'X-rated' stuff reminds me of the concept of 'family secrets' - I am sure you know what that is! - and I think that is why people get sucked into it so easily. So many of us grew up in families where we were so loyal to our family members that we didn't talk about certain things outside the home (including alcoholism, abuse, and so forth.) And, of course, there is so much harm done by perpetuating these secrets. Love to you, Marianne, and thanks again - Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:27:34 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Katie Subject: I've been X-rated once in the 70s at the rez Message:

now that I think about it. And I tell you I was feeling incredibly blessed to have such a chance at that time. Honestly that was a lot of fun. I was doing service at the residence during a program in Montpellier. And I heard m imitating a donkey for his kids ! First I thought that was a real donkey !! Now that I think about it, I wonder ...... I didn't have a chance to see or hear much, because I was hidden somewhere near the reception of the hotel, and my duty was to pick up the phone in case somebody was asking for him when, he was not there. The whole hotel had been booked for him and his family.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:29:28 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: and also during the instuctors trainings Message:

of course. That was part of the contract. And I saw him drink more than I thought anyone could take, and smoke cigars .....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 15:53:28 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

Marianne: I've read Michael Dettmer's threads and all the subsequent posts in which he revealed the reality of 'X-rating' and other things. I've just read you post here and all the subsequent posts as of 11:44 am EST, by my computer clock. My immediate reaction is: Oh shit! Goddammit! My second reaction is: Please send me your e-mail address or else I would like to chat with you as we did once before if you have some time. Thank you. shp

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 18:34:30 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: shp Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

There it is.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 15:27:20 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Marianne Subject: great post Marianne Message:

I think that the 'x rating' post was one of the most disturbing things I had ever read about the cult. I know that I too felt a little like I had been punched in the gut when I read it. I had heard the term before, but it had not clicked what it meant. It reminds me a little of finding out a long time ago ex spouse had an affair. I also think it explains to an extent how Randy and Judy can 'not recall' what I told them about Jagdeo. Everyone around the guru is indoctrinated into their new life around the guru with promises of secrecy and protecting him. Lying about Jagdeo is just another lie. In exchange they get to be the special, chosen ones, the insiders, sit up close, in the '70s they had nicer things....in exchange for their souls it seems. Is this seeming a little like 'rosemary's baby'? Here is one conspiracy that was very real, not a theory. I think the PAMs were cult victims too, really in a more vile way than the rest of us. Part of their test of loyalty was to agree to lie to the rest of us. In exchange they got to live a life of privledge. They got to feel like the chosen ones among the chosen ones. In exchange for their integrity. No wonder so few have spoken up here. A lot more to face for them than the rest of us.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 12:59:25 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

A premie/AmText employee once said to me in justifying his continued commitments to M, 'It's not like he's asking me to pack up everything and go off somewhere far away to live or something.....though....I dunno....I probably would.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 10:30:14 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

Marianne I must admit that the I find this 'X' rating business VERY disconcerting myself, more so than the other issues generally discussed on the forum. Certainly, at the very least, it undermines any sense of trust that is explicitly fostered in the process of preparing for Knowledge and is expected to remain in place afterwards. Clearly there is an issue of double standards here. The other issue that concerns me is the apparent chronic use of alcohol and drugs, not as a moral issue, but more in the context of brain deterioration in relation to long term use and an ability to be able to think clearly. Certainly, any instruction given by Maharaji, would have to take into consideration this potential disability at the very least. I must also admit, that like Bjorn. SHP and others , I have had very positive and peaceful experiences in the presence of Maharaji, not hyped or hysterical in the 'Bhole shri' context, but more in the restful sense of the experience of 'holy name'. (Not to mention experiences of Darshan - indescribable) The contradiction between this experience and the common sense alarm bells that ring when reading MD's posts are something rather confusing for me, because most things about this seem to function on an instinctive level. Anyway, it's time to re-evaluate some things, I suppose Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 01:40:07 (GMT) From: Turner Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

Let's call a spade a spade Mel. It all comes down to whether or not you feel Maharaji should be judged by the same standards as his students. Obviously for devoted premies, Maharaji is a cut above and not subject to their judgement. This is important because it's really the crux of the matter on ex-premie.org. Some ex-premies are democratic libertarians by nature and feel that all people are created equal and therefore believe the same rules apply to all. Others aren't so politically inclined but see 'standing up to Maharaji' as breaking a taboo they are now convinced was an oppressive force in their life. The fact they survive their over-the-top derision of Maharaji without going to hell feeds their bravado and drives them to flaunt their disrespect for this person they once revered. It is the same mentality that fueled the citoyen's untethered use of the guillotine after the monarchistic icons of France were toppled during the French revolution. Such is the nature of republican tyanny. So what is it Mel? Is it the student's place to judge the Master? If so does the student use the same standard to judge him as applies to the student? On the topic of Knowledge, does the student know what he or she needs? Is what the student needs the same as what the Master needs? These questions are at the heart of the argument. First you've got to answer for yourself whether or not you buy into this Master (with a capital 'M')/Student thing. If you do, then inherent in that acceptance is the acceptance that the Master knows what the student needs in order to grow. Also is the acceptance the student is in no position to judge the Master. Now I know this is a difficult one in light of the prevailing republican (small 'r') sentiment that dominates the world today. But the fact is all men and women on this planet are not created equal. Examples exist throughout time of extraordinary individuals who offered real hope and light to their followers. They were indeed a cut above. But what ex-premie republicans hope is that there really isn't someone like Maharaji who can offer the real goods. If there was, they would have to cede their imagined political standing in the universe to another human being. It would also mean they would have to admit they failed as a premie - failure is a difficult pill to swallow. The world has seen examples of charlatans who misused the respect they were given by their followers. Ex-premies attempt to paint Maharaji in the same same hue as these charlatans who profit from deception. To this end they seek every opportunity to spin historical and current events to support their beliefs. It is so clear this is what has happens here at ex-premie.org. Michael Dettmers, though I believe missed the point on the crux of the matter, has cleared up a lot of the fantasy created by the republican ex-premie conspiracy theorists. Most accept his disclosure, but only after he came out as being against Maharaji. Others still think he's holding back because, instead of painting a picture of the demonic madman they want to believe Maharaji to be, he describes a clear thinking man in charge of a difficult situation, attempting to do the impossible. He himself waffles between sentiments of Maharaji not accepting responsibility for certain matters in a way he believes is appropriate and respect for his 'remarkable qualities'. For me, Maharaji is incredibly special. Not because I believe him to be but because he knows what I need to be happy, and has demonstrated that at every encounter with him. So I therefore choose not to judge him. I'll accept that the ex-premies' needs are different than mine. That I'll accept. But damned if I'm going to let one of them try and impose their values on me. My need is to be a student. Why? Because learning and growing is the only reason I see to be here. And the existence of the Master means the possibility to grow will never die. Even if mistakes I've made wreak devastation upon my life, there is always hope because there is a Master. And yes, as a student I recognize that my Master knows better than me what I need to keep growing. Ultimately the reasons he chose to hide his lifestyle from us was, I believe, for our benefit. As I see it, it is no different than a parent hiding their personal life from their children. There is a time and a place for everything. We were children in the '70s and 80s. Now that we've matured, it is extremely unfair to judge ourselves or Maharaji for what transpired. But for the people who cannot find value in their life as a premie, judging him now is the only satisfaction they can wring out of all those years. All I can say is let them judge away if it makes them feel better. Personally their judgements will never shake my resolve to support my Master for the good he has brought to this world. And that good will not be tarnished by the ignorance and hatred of a hand-full of confused people who look for someone other than themselves on whom to blame their pain.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 09:11:52 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Turner Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

HOOEY!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 22:59:22 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Turner Subject: Good god - are you for real, Turner? Message:

I read your post last night and was absolutely astounded by it. I can tell you that the premies who run 'Enjoying Life with Knowledge' would NEVER let something like what you wrote be printed for public consumption. However, from what Susan has posted, I guess you are for real - and I also think you are lucky that you have this forum to express these extreme views. Jim's done a pretty good job on dissecting your entire post (and Mel has provided a good 'premie' answer) so I just want to make a few comments. You wrote: It all comes down to whether or not you feel Maharaji should be judged by the same standards as his students. Obviously for devoted premies, Maharaji is a cut above and not subject to their judgement. This is important because it's really the crux of the matter on ex-premie.org. You are correct that this is the crux of the matter - IMHO, anyway. I'm just surprised that you even brought this up. Most of the premies on here excuse Maharaji's behavior by saying things like 'Hey, I have money, too' or 'Hey, I like to have a drink sometimes, too.' What you imply is that Maharaji can do anything he wants because he's not really a human being and as such, has no moral laws to follow. To me, this is really scary. You also wrote: Some ex-premies are democratic libertarians by nature and feel that all people are created equal and therefore believe the same rules apply to all. I hate to disillusion you, but this is in the US Constitution, and is not exactly what I'd call a minority view. For your sake, I hope you live in a monarchy or dictatorship of some sort. The Constitution goes on to say that all people are entitled to 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' insofar as it doesn't interfere with other people's rights to same. I try to act in accordance with this view in my daily life, and I think that most of the other people who post here (whether premies or ex-premies) do too. You also wrote: First you've got to answer for yourself whether or not you buy into this Master (with a capital 'M')/Student thing. If you do, then inherent in that acceptance is the acceptance that the Master knows what the student needs in order to grow. Also is the acceptance the student is in no position to judge the Master. Now I know this is a difficult one in light of the prevailing republican (small 'r') sentiment that dominates the world today.But the fact is all men and women on this planet are not created equal. Examples exist throughout time of extraordinary individuals who offered real hope and light to their followers. They were indeed a cut above. Let me ask you this - if you are so 'unequal' to the Master and have to completely accept him without judgement - how can you even give yourself credit for knowing that this person IS the Master. What you have said above is a rationalization for every dictatorship, reign of terror, and genocide that has ever happened in the world. All were perpetrated by people who convinced other people to discard their own judgement because those people 'knew better'. I find your views to be extremely frightening. I hope that other premies do not share them.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 21:22:44 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Turner Subject: Please climb down for a minute, Turner Message:

Turner I was at quite a loss as to how to reply to your post, because even as “premies” it appears that we probably have quite divergent views. Firstly, I disagree with your very definite views on the “acceptances” that come with the “master/student” relationship. To me my “student” relationship with Maharaji is basically quite simple - he shows me how to practice and provides the inspiration to continue and enjoy the experience, and I practice. There are no additional conditions on the relationship as far as I am aware despite what you imply when you say …” as a student I recognize that my Master knows better than me what I need to keep growing.” Your dismissal of the “ex” premie motivation as political or merely revolutionary is extremely superficial. I don’t know if you have a wide experience in dealing with people, but my general view is that if there is there is angry criticism on a matter, then it is best to listen because there is usually a legitimate cause. My belief is that there are matters to be addressed here and there is very little listening going on. There is a deep hurt here that may not be able to be rectified but certainly cannot be ignored, surely you can acknowledge that much at least. Mel.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 20:52:58 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Turner Subject: rrnphhh.... ...uggle... Message:

....fnyurkk....ergh...(choke)... urnk.. hyurghle... mmph ... ppphhhhwwwoaaarrahahahaha ... HAHAHAHAHA .... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAH!!!!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 18:56:05 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Turner Subject: 'Extraordinary Man' Message:

... It all comes down to whether or not you feel Maharaji should be judged by the same standards as his students. Obviously for devoted premies, Maharaji is a cut above and not subject to their judgement. 'a cut above'? This reminds me of the character Raskolnikov in 'Crime and Punishment', who fancies himself to be an 'Extraordinary Man'. He commits murder in an attempt to show himself that he is 'Extraordinary'. In the case of Prem Rawat, he has also deluded others into thinking he is such a person. In the topsy-turvy world of an 'Extraordinary Man', crime and vice are presented as virtues, lies as truths, cruelty as kindness, stealing as giving, and weaknesses as strengths. If you haven't judged (i.e. evaluated) him, how could you possibly know if he is a 'Master'? How do you define 'Master', what criteria do you have for someone being a 'Master'? Without any criteria, it is a totally meaningless term. Do you think he's a 'Master' (whatever that means) just because he says he is?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 15:53:03 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Turner Subject: Damn strange post Turner Message:

Do I know you? I have this feeling I know you. Is this representative of current year 2000 insider premie think? String together a bunch of jargon, spit it out and think you have made some sort of point? Or maybe you are a year 2000 Bongo? So, this I need a Massa thing is alive and well? You need him ( oops, Him ) to tell you what it is you need to grow and be happy. You can't judge him, nor can we, because he is after all the Master. Sounds like you would drink the Kool Aid. After all, he does know what you need to be happy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 16:07:41 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Susan Subject: another Turner post ( in case anyone forgot) Message:

Turner seems to be brought out of the woodwork by Michael Dettmers posts. I think Turner doth protest too much... Turners response to Dettmers: Michael You, who admittedly enjoyed the opportunity as a young man to affiliate with Maharaji on a personal level; who not so long ago still 'loved and respected' him for his many 'remarkable qualities', sit in judgement on him now on something that happened completely out of today's context. What does smoking dope have to do with whether or not Knowledge is true. Michael get real. Of course the ashrams protected people from the dangers of drugs. I personally knew a number of people, as I'm sure did you, who God knows where they would have ended up if not for the protection afforded by the ashram during those years. I was one of them. The fact that you all apparently partook of smoking dope with him in what you surely must have felt was a protected environment in no way diminishes the real potential danger the ashrams protected people from. Rules are for people who are not free. When freedom comes, the rules can go. Perhaps he thought you guys were free enough. You got to see behind the rules and potentially better understand the spirit of his message. But look at you today. Total amnesia! If you wanted a 'master' that was an up-tight ashram devotee just like you, you should have joined the Krishnas. Old A.C. seemed to me like a pretty upstanding example of their dogma. Michael you have done the most natural thing someone who stops believing in Maharaji does. Turn against him. Without an experience of Knowledge, what else could a logical person do? After you have purged yourself of any fond memories of your life as a premie; after you have let the passage of time diminish the poiniency of his words, what else could an honest, thinking person do but turn against him? That's fine. It just troubles me to see someone I used to respect from a distance resort to using stupid tit-for-tat arguments like 'he smoked dope so that nulifies the protective nature of the ashram'. That's just really dumb. The fact is Michael the ashrams did protect people from a lot of things during a period in their lives when they arguably not only needed it but wanted it. It provided an environment where they were free enough from such distractions where they could focus on knowing themselves. You see not all of us were free when we were 24 years old. It wouldn't work for me today, so I daren't judge my past by my current standards. I'm surprised you have stooped to doing just that. T

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 15:25:50 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Turner Subject: Hi Turner Message:

Let's call a spade a spade Mel. It all comes down to whether or not you feel Maharaji should be judged by the same standards as his students. Obviously for devoted premies, Maharaji is a cut above and not subject to their judgement. Right of the bat, you fuck things up with some kind of ditzy bait-and-switch. You pose a relatively reasonable sounding question -- should Maharaji be judge by the same standards as his students? -- but 'answer' it with the radical, classic cult that 'obviously' Maharaji is a 'cut above' [his students] who are unworthy to judge him by any standard. What does this show? I don't know. That you're trying to varnish your absurd cult thinking with a patina of reasonablenes? This is important because it's really the crux of the matter on ex-premie.org. No it isn't. The general consensus on the forum, I'm sure, is that Maharaji should indeed be judged and judged by the same moral standards we'd apply to each other generally. That's a given. Yes, premies try to argue that there's an 'interesting question' out there somewhere as to whether or not people should bbe judging him at all, but that's a dead issue for exes. Some ex-premies are democratic libertarians by nature and feel that all people are created equal and therefore believe the same rules apply to all. Being 'created equal' is not to say that everyone's cirucmstances are equal and identical such that no one's raises unique issues or warrant special consideration. Others aren't so politically inclined but see 'standing up to Maharaji' as breaking a taboo they are now convinced was an oppressive force in their life. I guess you think you're having a little fun here. Well, your post IS fun, that's what I like about it so much. It was hard to tell, at first, if you're even for real, this would be such a great parody of crazy premie thinking. But I seem to recall you posting before. Those posts weren't particularly funny, if I recall, so I'm assuming this is legit. Stupid, pompous but legit. Ex's discussion about Maharaji never even touches on political theory. I guess you can still access some brain cells storing your high school civics memories. Good for you that you can remember anything this late in the game. It's all silly but, like I say, fun. The fact they survive their over-the-top derision of Maharaji without going to hell feeds their bravado and drives them to flaunt their disrespect for this person they once revered. Maybe I'm paranoid but I can't help but read an assumption in that sentence that people should not disrespect people they once revered. Am I wrong? Premies say this kind of thing all the time. As if they never heard of changing one's mind. Funny thing is, we try to tell them why we've changed our minds and they don't want to discuss those reasons. Not fully, that's for sure. Crazy. It is the same mentality that fueled the citoyen's untethered use of the guillotine after the monarchistic icons of France were toppled during the French revolution. Such is the nature of republican tyanny. You sure about this? If there's one thing you can unequivocally say about this site it's that it neither encourages nor tolerates any threats of physical violence against anyone, even our former cult leader. Rather, we enjoy this forum wherein we can analyze, consider, ridicule, and challenge -- verbally -- the man and his so-called 'teaching'. Sounds like that kind of unfettered dialogue is very, very alien to what you're used to, especially, I'm guessing, when it concerns your cult leader. Look, I'm just trying to help here. You don't have a better explanation for saying something so stupid, do you? So what is it Mel? Is it the student's place to judge the Master? If so does the student use the same standard to judge him as applies to the student? I guess you forgot how you derailed that discussion yourself as soon as you started it. Not to worry, I'm sure we all know what you mean. On the topic of Knowledge, does the student know what he or she needs? Is what the student needs the same as what the Master needs? These questions are at the heart of the argument. Okaaaaayyyyyyyy, I'm just a little leery of what you're going to do to these questions. But we'll see. Maybe there's something to talk about yet. Hopefully, nothing as bizarre (or insulting) as your guillotine analogy. First you've got to answer for yourself whether or not you buy into this Master (with a capital 'M')/Student thing. If you do, then inherent in that acceptance is the acceptance that the Master knows what the student needs in order to grow. Not so fast, buddy! Not so fast at all! For I say that, if you do 'buy into this Master/Student thing' you better start defining and explaining it. After all, we're dealing with a very unique phenomenon, to say the least. So what the fuck is it? Really, what exactly, as best you can say, is it? What is that thing? You simply have to answer that and answer it well before you can proceed in any intelligent fashion acting on that assumption. But premies don't think like that, do they? Words are used to encourage slavish devotion and discourage any other kind of thinking, especially analysis, real analysis. For example, who says that, even if, for argument's sake only, one accepts 'that Master / Student thing', who says that necessarily means that the Master 'knows what the student needs to grow'? Isn't that an open issue, something worth even a little discussion? I mean, just a little, Turn ol' buddy? But here you've brushed by it like, like, well like a shady car salesman, come to think of it! Relax, Turner, let your customer relax a bit too. Let Mel do his own thinking a bit, huh? You're not anxious about this, by any chance, are you? Also is the acceptance the student is in no position to judge the Master. All I can say is ditto, ditto, ditTOOOO! Now I know this is a difficult one in light of the prevailing republican (small 'r') sentiment that dominates the world today. But the fact is all men and women on this planet are not created equal. Examples exist throughout time of extraordinary individuals who offered real hope and light to their followers. They were indeed a cut above. That's it? That's IT?? That's all you've got to say to, say, a lonely atheist like myself who thinks that all so-called avatars, God-men, prophets and Holy Mothers weren't anything but regular human beings? You say 'the fact is' but I'm sorry, Turner, we got to talk about this one. I think there's a bit of an issue here, myself. Again, relax, it looks like you're trying to close a sale or something. Don't skate over obvious issues pretending they don't exist. Somehow it doesn't make you look good. But what ex-premie republicans hope is that there really isn't someone like Maharaji who can offer the real goods. If there was, they would have to cede their imagined political standing in the universe to another human being. It would also mean they would have to admit they failed as a premie - failure is a difficult pill to swallow. Well you gotta be fair about this, Turn. For one thing, not all exes think alike on this issue. Some (regrettably, in my opinion) do, in fact, believe in the existence of 'someone like Maharaji' (by that, I assume you mean an 'avatar', you tricky, tricky guy, you!). But most, I agree, don't. The thing is, though, these latter 'republican [small 'r')' exes don't just 'hope' such avatars aren't possible, they believe that to be the case. Better still, they have reasons for thinking as they do. And no, their reasons are not at all the pathetic, little scrap you've thrown up -- fear of having 'failed' as a premie. Nice try, eh? Sheesh! The world has seen examples of charlatans who misused the respect they were given by their followers. Ex-premies attempt to paint Maharaji in the same same hue as these charlatans who profit from deception. To this end they seek every opportunity to spin historical and current events to support their beliefs. Well there you go again, mentioning issues only to skate around them. Why not settle in to a simple, fair heads-on analysis? You already acknowledge the existence of frauds in the 'field', how you gonna tell them from the real McCoy's? Exe's efforts, whatever they might be, are beside the point. The analysis focusses on Maharaji. He's the subject, not the exes. But then premies can't really have tht conversation. Not honestly, anyway. Okay, carry on. It is so clear this is what has happens here at ex-premie.org. Michael Dettmers, though I believe missed the point on the crux of the matter, has cleared up a lot of the fantasy created by the republican ex-premie conspiracy theorists. 'Conspiracy theorists'? You mean you're just going to throw a term like that out with no explanation or discussion? What conspiracies are you talking about? How about the one to maintain a certain mystique and divine image for your cult leader? Do you deny that that conspiracy existed and still exists? Talk to us about this, Turn. Please. Most accept his disclosure, but only after he came out as being against Maharaji. Others still think he's holding back because, instead of painting a picture of the demonic madman they want to believe Maharaji to be, he describes a clear thinking man in charge of a difficult situation, attempting to do the impossible. That sure isn't how I read Dettmers. Perhaps you'd like to point out where Michael's comments give anything like that impression, that Maharaji is a 'clear thinking man'. And I can only point out the glaringly obvious point, lost on you just as obviously, that 'clear thinkers' don't attempt 'to do the impossible'. He himself waffles between sentiments of Maharaji not accepting responsibility for certain matters in a way he believes is appropriate and respect for his 'remarkable qualities'. Well now you're starting to sqaunder your credibility with me, Turner. You're clearly fudging things. Dettmers' expressed sentiments have changed over the past half year but that change has all been in one direction. 'Waffling' suggests an indecisive back and forth that I'd suggest is pointedly absent from Michael's posts. I guess you're hell-bent on blurring that simple fact, aren't you? Or can't you see it? Show me the evidence of any such 'waffling'. Go on, I dare you. For me, Maharaji is incredibly special. DUH!! Not because I believe him to be but because he knows what I need to be happy, and has demonstrated that at every encounter with him. So I therefore choose not to judge him. I guess this is where the pedal hits the metal, huh? This is your reasoning: Maharaji knows what you need to be happy, therefore you don't judge him. Well, that's quite a simple dimple mouthful, isn't it? Okay, let's assume, just for the hell of it, that Maharaji really does know what you need to be happy (NOT!). Why should that necessarily prevent you from judging him? And what do you mean by 'judging' anyway? See you never really dealt with that. You started talking about how Maharaji should be judge, by what standard, then you said you don't judge him by any standard. THEN, you raised the issue a second time, again pretending that you were going to talk about what standard and all. But you never did, did you? What happened? Have a crisis of faith or something? Get a little lazy? I bet you're not to used to stringing more than a few words together to talk about Maharaji anymore, are you? I'll accept that the ex-premies' needs are different than mine. That I'll accept. But damned if I'm going to let one of them try and impose their values on me. My need is to be a student. Why? Because learning and growing is the only reason I see to be here. And the existence of the Master means the possibility to grow will never die. Even if mistakes I've made wreak devastation upon my life, there is always hope because there is a Master. And yes, as a student I recognize that my Master knows better than me what I need to keep growing. This is really, REALLY pathetic stuff, Turn. You start off with some great moral and political essay and you end up jettisoning that effort and uttering premie baby talk. I guess it was when you used the 'n' word, huh? In my experience, once people start talking about their 'needs', watch out. So I guess what you really need is something you can believe in without thinking about, huh? Yeah, that'll get you 'growing' alright. Good luck! Ultimately the reasons he chose to hide his lifestyle from us was, I believe, for our benefit. As I see it, it is no different than a parent hiding their personal life from their children. There is a time and a place for everything. We were children in the '70s and 80s. Now that we've matured, it is extremely unfair to judge ourselves or Maharaji for what transpired. Un UH, friend! You can't have it both ways. Either you're going to 'judge' him, i.e. analyze the man and the situation in a hopefully fair, intelligent and open manner, tossing around hypotheses, weighing the evidence, or you're not. You've already said you don't play this game so don't try to place any chips on this table. Either that or make up your mind. You want to judge him or not? Personally, I say go for it. For one thing, you're going to do it anyway. For another, it's fun. For a third, it's your only way out, stupid! But for the people who cannot find value in their life as a premie, judging him now is the only satisfaction they can wring out of all those years. There you go again. That word 'cannot' .... I dunno, Turn. That's a little offensive, isn't it? How about 'do not'? How about 'do not with good reason'? How about 'do not with a ton of excellent reasons?' All I can say is let them judge away if it makes them feel better. Personally their judgements will never shake my resolve to support my Master for the good he has brought to this world. And that good will not be tarnished by the ignorance and hatred of a hand-full of confused people who look for someone other than themselves on whom to blame their pain. Sorry, Turn, if I mislead you. I originally though this was a great premie post. Now I see that I was dreaming. It's just your typical junk. Nice try, though.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 03:17:12 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: That's it? Turner? Hey, Turner! TURRRRRRRNERRR! Message:

Where'd you go, bud? You've made a really strong impression here and in just a few words too. If premie thinking was like a big, dead fish, let's say, your thinking, Turner, would be like a fillet of soul. It's rich, concentrated and compleeeeetely out of this world. So don't bail on us now, Turner. Your fans need to see you stand up for the truth -- sorry, your truth -- or WHATEVER, I guess. But we need you, man. Please! (Mind you, unlike shp, you have to leave when we're finished with you. Okay?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 16:47:11 (GMT) From: shp Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey Ex Tex, Jim is speaking for you again... Message:

Check it out. He's into 'wee-weeing' all over the place again.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 23:16:26 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: shp Subject: Oh sorry ... you still here, shppie? Message:

By the way, What do you think of Turner's post?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 17:11:52 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: True leadership Message:

Jim: Just to be clear, re: Well you gotta be fair about this, Turn. For one thing, not all exes think alike on this issue. Some (regrettably, in my opinion) do, in fact, believe in the existence of 'someone like Maharaji' (by that, I assume you mean an 'avatar', you tricky, tricky guy, you!). I'm increasingly convinced that there is no such thing as a genuine avatar, messiah, etc. Charisma is a social phenomenon that performs the same function for the larger society that organizational consultants perform for corporations. That is, they provide the justifications for, and smooth the transitions involved in, tearing down the old social structures. They may or may not be 'legit,' but the objective is to at least ensure that they aren't pathological. Given human nature I expect charisma to continue to play an important role, so I'm interested in being able to discern 'good' charisma. For instance, Washington's real claim to fame is that he was willing to transfer his personal charismatic legitimacy to the newly established national government, by surrendering power to his political opponents. Roughly the same is true of Gandhi. Perhaps willingness to surrender power as part of a rational and fair process of deliberation, is one of the hallmarks of 'good' charisma. --Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 20:39:04 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: True leadership Message:

I think we're limited by our primate brain in certain regards. Logic was an add-on; it is not (unfortunately, perhaps!) in the core of our being; it is part of the last periphery that arose during the last 14 ice-ages that came and went from between some 1.5 million years ago and 50,000 years before the present. Even wanting a god or an avatar to exist is evidence of an irrational aspect. I'm fully convinced wanting one is prequel to finding one. :) I don't want one anymore. Don't want one; don't need one; ain't afraid of one. Ain't afraid of dying; ain't afraid of hell; ain't afraid of god nor devil nor Ma Bell.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 20:52:13 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: a0aji Subject: True leadership Message:

I'm afraid of all of those things. What drugs are you on? Seriously though, just because you don't 'feel the need' doesn't mean it's not a social necessity. The alternative is an ever expanding legal/rational bureaucracy... or what Weber called 'the iron cage.' Periodically things just get too buttoned down, and we have to forget what we thought we knew. A Charismatic leader is a way to go through such a transition. It's a sort of circuit breaker, a way to 'bet the farm' when continuation of the old and calculated means death. --Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 22:41:33 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: True leadership Message:

Don't worry, there'll be no shortage of cults and charisma in the foreseeable future. Brain structure guarantees us that much -- probably, forever, and especially during interglacials, when the human body's evolution is nearly in arrest. Then again, this interglacial is over!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 04:38:44 (GMT) From: la-ex Email: None To: Turner Subject: turner-you are one big fuckin idiot!!! Message:

would love to see you respond to some of the comments that come in...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 03:42:14 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Turner Subject: A clearly stated confusion. Message:

Turner: Now I know this is a difficult one in light of the prevailing republican (small 'r') sentiment that dominates the world today. But the fact is all men and women on this planet are not created equal. Examples exist throughout time of extraordinary individuals who offered real hope and light to their followers. They were indeed a cut above. My republicanism is tempered by the conviction that charisma, and charismatic leadership, are absolutely critical to human social, political, and even spiritual evolution. In short, I admit your point. I have even insisted on it, and it's the primary reason I contribute to ex-premie.org. I am not, however, blind to the essential weakness of your argument. You downplay the dilemma and it's resolution. But what ex-premie republicans hope is that there really isn't someone like Maharaji who can offer the real goods. If there was, they would have to cede their imagined political standing in the universe to another human being. There may be someone who can offer the 'real goods,' but he definitely will not be like Maharaji. There is no such thing as being a 'cut above' in the sense that you are exempt from the moral and ethical rules that govern leadership. If charisma were such a carte blanche then the standards we impose upon ourselves and others would also be suspect. We would, for instance, have no certainty that Jon Benet Ramsey wasn't killed in self defense. You simply have to impose some standards on charisma, or you have no clear distinctions between a George Washington and an Adolf Hitler until it's too late. On the other hand, you can believe the universe is perverse. Doesn't work for me. If a charismatic leader, who in his own estimation and that of his followers is a 'cut above,' behaves in a way that is a 'cut below,' then the judgment call is not even close. It would also mean they would have to admit they failed as a premie - failure is a difficult pill to swallow. I fail alot. I just pick myself up and start over. No biggie. I don't, however, blame myself for things that aren't under my control. I was fooled by Maharaji. Oh well. Life goes on. The world has seen examples of charlatans who misused the respect they were given by their followers. Ex-premies attempt to paint Maharaji in the same same hue as these charlatans who profit from deception. To this end they seek every opportunity to spin historical and current events to support their beliefs. This is a total misrepresentation of what's happening. For the most part we aren't painting anything, but stripping the paint off. Maharaji misrepresented himself as 'Lord' and then said he didn't. He presented himself as moral, ethical and caring, when in fact he was callous and self-absorbed. There are a sufficient number of red flags here that he doesn't qualify as a 'cut above.' It's inappropriate and inaccurate to represent this insight as based on a republicanism that denies the possibility of great leadership, because I don't abhor that concept at all. I just maintain that Maharaji clearly doesn't qualify. --Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 02:36:41 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Turner Subject: ***EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT PREMIE POST!*** Message:

Great work, Turner! This is a real piece of work. I can't wait to reply to it when I get a chance. I can't now but I just wanted to say, yeah, it's really something. Too much, eh? Okay, gotta go now, talk to you later, Jim

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 02:30:04 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Turner Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

WAKE UP : it's the 21st century , not the 18th. As an arguement for the Divine Right of Kings , that one , although reasonably enthusiastic , was a bit garbled. Are you sure you haven't been having a 'little toke' on the sly. Don't worry , Daddy will forgive you , he likes a nice fat spliff himself now & then . Go & drink a bottle of Bio-Fed , it'll help you grow a brain.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 00:59:41 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Simplest answers are the most likely Message:

Trying to remember who said that - may even have been Sherlock Holmes..... Anyway, paring this thing down to it's bare bones, what do we have? We have (I believe) the existance of a Creator. We have a variety of extra-normal inner experiences available to us humans, which can be stimulated by both physical and chemical means. We have a few ancient yoga techniques which sometimes allow people to access to these experiences, ranging from mild to extraordinary. We have an immigrant Indian teenager, who when he realized he wasn't actually God after all, decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth and create a luxurious, affluent lifestyle at our expense. So what was it you found confusing?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 03:58:02 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Rob Subject: Good one Rob. Message:

We have an immigrant Indian teenager, who when he realized he wasn't actually God after all, decided not to look a gift horse in the mouth and create a luxurious, affluent lifestyle at our expense. So what was it you found confusing? Exactly. Subtract the mystique and what you've got is a pretty mundane story. There still may or may not be some mystique attached to the techniques, and the related experience. That's a totally different matter. Get rid of the false guru and we may get a clearer look at that. --Scott

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 18:16:31 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

I must also admit, that like Bjorn. SHP and others , I have had very positive and peaceful experiences in the presence of Maharaji, not hyped or hysterical in the 'Bhole shri' context, but more in the restful sense of the experience of 'holy name'. (Not to mention experiences of Darshan - indescribable) Mel, The other day I was messing around with this meditation technique I read about in a book called Meditation for Busy People (not that I'm so busy, but anyway...); one of the steps in it was an 'enhancement phase' where you picture an image of someone you consider a great soul, that you're impressed by for their spiritual excellence. Well, I thought of Jesus, not because I really believe that Jesus did all the things they say, but because I was taught at a young age that he died on the cross for my sins, and rose into heaven so that someday so could I. Anyway, I was deep into this meditation, and I must have uncovered some deep remembrances of when I believed this because I felt a deep sense of comfort thinking that Jesus died for me. God in the form of man taking on all that suffering just so I could be forgiven. It felt good. I felt forgiven, and grateful that God would go to such lengths all for the love of little me, and all humankind. The point I'm trying to relay through this is how the power of faith can stir us, very deeply, and make us feel that all is well. This is what I believe happenned with you in your darshan experiences. Your faith in Maharaji ran so deep that naturally, in his presense, you would feel what any believer feels about their lord, that they're saved through him. That doesn't mean he is who you think he is. You just have to believe he is. The power of faith, it can move you very deeply, even if what you believe in isn't necessarily true.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 21:00:46 (GMT) From: janet Email: None To: marianne Subject: re: faith in something despite reality Message:

ya know--what you just said set me thinking. about things like superstition, worry beads, security blankets, lucky sports equipment, talismans, charms, crystals, holy icons and relics, the shroud of turin, and all those illogical, unreasonable things human beings cling to and imbue with power. the power is in us. a baby may have a drug addicted, alcoholic whore for a mom, but she's still mom, and the baby will stop crying at the sight of her. as long as mom is there, everything's alright. even if mom is homeless and hiding out in a squat with a needle and a spoon and a bottle with a crew of others of like situation.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 02:33:01 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: janet Subject: Janet, That is a Beautiful Poem....!!(nt) Message:

ny

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 16:54:03 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Hi Mel Message:

Hi Mel - IMHO, it takes a lot of courage and integrity to come onto this forum and say what you have said, especially after your previous posting history here. As you may already know, I think you are a really good person, and also someone who is capable of thinking for themselves. I had been an ex-premie for years when I found this forum and site, but I was still very shocked by the same kind of revelations that you are talking about now (reading the Forum I archives was the kicker for me - the 'X-rated' and alcohol issues were discussed there, although they weren't presented as clearly as Michael D. has done here.) The alcohol and drug use really bothered me most because of my personal history - I became a premie to get AWAY from people who drank and took drugs. There is no way I could have ever become an 'X-rated' premie. It was pretty simple to me - if the experience of Knowledge is so wonderful (and I KNOW that people do experience a lot in meditation - even when they are ex-premies), then why does the guy that teaches it have to drink and use drugs? I don't doubt that you've had really good experiences around Maharaji, especially in darshan - I had them too. I also had an amazing experience IN my knowledge session. And you are correct that these experiences seem instinctual and thus difficult to integrate with common sense. This has been an issue for a lot of people here - in fact, people have posted quite a bit about it, although I think they did it more when the forum was smaller. A I do think common sense, and our own personal ideas about things, are important - and that it can and needs to be part of what Maharaji characterizes as the 'heart'. The dichotomy between the 'heart' and 'mind' as presented by Maharaji, is IMHO false, and can cause a lot of problems - especially since I believe that what he calls the 'heart' and what he calls the 'mind' need to be INTEGRATED in human beings, rather than separated. Take care - Love, Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 22:11:04 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Katie Subject: Yes yes yes integrate heart and mind Message:

'I do think common sense, and our own personal ideas about things, are important - and that it can and needs to be part of what Maharaji characterizes as the 'heart'. The dichotomy between the 'heart' and 'mind' as presented by Maharaji, is IMHO false, and can cause a lot of problems - especially since I believe that what he calls the 'heart' and what he calls the 'mind' need to be INTEGRATED in human beings, rather than separated.' Exactly Katie! One of the big discoveries for me, which didn't come till AFTER leaving, was that the mind is not the problem. Making it the problem is! It has been so incredible for me to get my mind back, by gradually allowing it to put words to what I REALLY feel (rather than parroting MJ's truths). As my mind has become a truthful mirror and translator of my body and feelings, they have become more and more friendly and integrated, and I have found that they have begun to sparkly with the same quality. The fear of the 'mind' engendered in MJ's cult is similar to the fear of the devil put forth by fundamentalists, and since 'what you resist persists' they keep catching those fundamentalists doing 'devilish' things in motel rooms. My mind used to be a real nasty creature while I was a premie, because I kept attacking it, instead of allowing it to be a part of me. Let'is hear it for integration! Let the mind ride the bus with the heart! Love Disculta (aka someone you know)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 22:36:20 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Disculta Subject: Yes yes yes integrate heart and mind Message:

Maharaj Ji specifically made intellectuals and intellectualism the sworn enemy of Diving Light Mission. Can you say Khymer Rouge?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 19:26:06 (GMT) From: Liz Email: None To: Katie Subject: X Rated National Coordinators Message:

Dear Katie, Like Susan I have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach, mainly due to the fact that these National Coordinators are 'the brick wall' between M and his devoted followers. What I can't understand is that these guys like Glen, George Legare and David Smith and many more seem to be having a good time with this. All these 'Sectrets & Lies' PAMS have convinced themselves into a self rightious arrogant 'blissed out' oblivion. I wish someone could explain to me how this works while the 'doubters' really suffer from all of this including me. Seems M was right on one thing. Remove all doubt from your mind. As confused as ever, Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 20:45:58 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Liz Subject: X Rated National Coordinators Message:

Dear Liz - BTW, good to see you here, as always! You wrote: What I can't understand is that these guys like Glen, George Legare and David Smith and many more seem to be having a good time with this. All these 'Secrets & Lies' PAMS have convinced themselves into a self rightious arrogant 'blissed out' oblivion. I wish someone could explain to me how this works while the 'doubters' really suffer from all of this including me. Of course, as you know, I was never a PAM or 'X-rated', so I can't explain it from the inside. I think, however, that it is just an extension of the 'people aren't ready' idea. You know how they rate videos and events according to who can watch them or attend - this just seems like more of the same, except it is a division between people who have already received knowledge. I would guess that the national coordinators and other X-rated people feel that they have attained some level of devotion or realization which makes them able to handle the truth about M. I'd also guess that they feel that most other premies wouldn't be able to handle knowing the truth. I think they are correct in feeling this - if I had known all this about M, I would have left a LOT sooner! But I really distrust the mindset of someone that thinks 'well, *I* am advanced, or realized, or devoted, enough to hear this, but most premies are not, so we can't let them know the whole truth.' It's manipulative and dishonest - and this mindset among 'X-rated' premies is obviously promoted by Maharaji himself so that he can maintain his image while doing whatever he wants. Take care, Liz - Love, Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 23:41:46 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Katie Subject: X Rated National Coordinators Message:

Nice analysis, Katie. I also think you could view that 'X-rated' mindset as an extension of the 'see-no-evil' thinking we swallowed wholesale then repeated to others: 'M doesn't look anything like a guru, he doesn't sound like a guru. He isn't poor or ascetic (y'know... ribs sticking out, bearded, silent and holy). He's brash, materialistic, squeaky-voiced and Americanised, sure. But - hey - those are just our concepts. The Lord of Creation has not come to be another two-a-penny Indian Holy Man. He is here to blow those concepts, one at a time, and for our own sakes. I mean just think: only the Lord of the Universe could look that way, act that way, smell that way, be so uncool and get away with it. Stands to reason, surely..?' X-raters are those special people ready for the MA (aka. 'Masters') in Avoiding The Bleeding Obvious.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 23:50:54 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: X Rated National Coordinators Message:

Of course the power and pleasure of being on the 'inside' would never have influenced these people. Nah!!!! Being on the inside would be incredibly seductive. I mean being on the inside re;the ashrams and getting secret ashram satsang was pretty good. I belived when in the ashram at least for a while, that I could have two conversations. One with ashram premies where we 'knew' we were the better devotees and had a real chance of reasising M and K. The other conversation was with family devotees where I would talk as if I didn't believe the ideas of the previous conversation and talk as though it made no difference whether I was in the ashram on not. Being on the inside also meant the power of secret knowledge. Being in the in-group. I can imagine doing just about anything to be in the in-group. Being on the inside also had material advantages - a bit like people working for WD&HO Wills and saying 'smoking is your choice', or selling/making/distributing other dodgy or dangerous goods. Being on the inside - there was also nowhere else to go. You either stayed or you had to leave. You could no longer go back down the ladder. As someone else pointed out earlier - when on the inside you have to stay (and spin yourself a better and more ludicrous story) or go (and deal with the dissappointment and your implicit collusion with a grand lie). Neither are great choices. Cheers Peter

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 14:57:22 (GMT) From: red butler Email: None To: Turner Subject: Bridge to the 21st century... Message:

His eyes were open but not yet comprehending much. He ran his tongue across his teeth. There was a raw gap in the front that was new. Of course, his head was pounding and his throat was parched, but what was that sound? The high pitch whine so close by made him think of a helicopter blade grabbing at air struggling to reach lift speed. Where was that...? Mostly though, the noisy darkness scared him. He felt a breeze where there shouldn't be one and suddenly realized his pants, christ! even his underpants were gone. Slowly he rose to his feet, tripping over the beer bottles and sterno cans and brushed away the crusty film staining his chilled buttocks. He thought dimly of satin sheets and the roar of ocean waves. When was that...? From the railroad yard came the faint glimmer of dawn and soon big M was able to take stock of himself. Looking around he found his trousers in a pile next to a rain soaked and moldy blanket. 'At least they're dry,' he thought. They might even pass for clean in the dark, though he knew the strong ammonia smell would give him away. But nobody would give shit at the mission. 'Mission' that word rattled around in his addled brain. Something about a 'mission.' What was that...? He slowly struggled up the bank to the freeway shoulder. The cars whizzing by in their rush hour frenzy dizzied him even further. Gotta remember this place, he promised himself. Not that crowded and pretty safe, though the company was a little rough. It ain't Malibu, he thought, but not bad for East LA. 'Malibu,' the word haunted him. Ah fuck it. He couldn't remember that stuff anymore but he did remember some bottles he stashed by the Safeway dumpster last night. He was all right. He was fine. And the beer he'd buy with the bottle deposit would be just the way to start his day. The sun was coming up on another fine California morning and all was right with the world once again...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 20:56:56 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: None To: red butler Subject: ! -nt- Message:

nt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 00:06:09 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Peter Howie Subject: Yes - special people know they are special... Message:

And it's a very comforting feeling. Another factor in that insane trip-of-a-lifetime known as premiedom. Spot-on Peter. Cheers, Nige

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 06:49:34 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Yes - special people know they are special... Message:

The interesting blend of a sense of priviledge, low/high status in relation to M/ordinary premies - (you will always be low status in comparison with M) - so its a bit like people who have an abusive boss and go home and take it out on their families - they are going to dump the 'ego-fallout' on the grovelling masses). The entire social pyramid of DLM/EV is underpinned with fear and insecurity - everybody aware that THEIR self importance rests on His approval. Ron Geaves told me a story once of a time when he was snubbed and hurt by M - and how all the PAMs rejected him as a consequence. He was suddenly in disgrace. You find out who your friends are not - and despise them even more - no premie is going to help you toward him - they are going to drag you down - and since HE holds the key to your redeption, maintainance social salvation - everybody else is worthless. It really is a manifestation of all the worst elements of the Guru dependant cult of devotion.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 22:18:08 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Loaf Subject: This is the WOIST.. Message:

part of the whole cult experience for me - the way people would tread on other people to get to MJ! In fact I still have nightmares about it -at least I did until recently. Come to think of it, they have stopped. It must be you, Loaf, under my bedclothes with that flashlight! ;-} love disculta

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Oct 28, 2000 at 00:15:57 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Disculta Subject: I'm undercover and social climbing (nt) Message:

We must stop meeting like this.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 00:28:11 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Nigel Subject: great conversations lately Message:

Not only are the revelations about the cult interesting I think the insights and conversation they provoke is phenomenal. I am really enjoying reading these posts lately as people are putting words to so many things I have felt over the years. I may no longer feel like one of the chosen, and I no longer feel better than the average man or woman on the street...but I still have some pretty cool friends!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 20:50:47 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Katie Subject: well said Katie Message:

I am sure that is exactly how they rationalize it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 15:44:21 (GMT) From: Susan Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel Message:

I actually feel for you here, it is really hard to see these things, and like I said above, the ex rating thing sickened me, and I have been out for over 20 years, so I can imagine how you might feel. I have a lot of respect you have the guts to post that it disturbs you. I still think 'holy name' was a nice peaceful feeling. I have to access that feeling though in other ways, I can't use Rawat's meditation techniques without feeling soiled. There are other ways to the feeling, like sometimes reading a story to my 2 year old, or appreciating nature, or doing something good for a friend. Darshan, well, I agree with Anth on that. It was a 'powerful' experience, but I do not think its power came from any kind of spirituality from Rawat. Like he said, its all inside us. He is right on that. What is wrong is he then somehow agrues we must be eternally grateful for pointing out to us that life is magical and a gift. Well, yes it is. But he didn't give me the gift. And I know all sorts of people who lead magical, wonderful, spiritual lives who have never heard of PPSR. He's a con man. He doesn't sell snake oil, I do not think Knowledge itself is a bad thing, but the meaning he attaches to it, and what gratitude he thinks we owe him, that is the con.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 19:48:52 (GMT) From: M's Manicurist Email: None To: Susan, Mel andKatie, etc Subject: Seeing the Wood from the Trees Message:

Dear Susan, Mel & Katie and all, The crux of all this is that meditation WORKS and that M has used this for his own greed at the mental and emotional expense of many many people including me. He has added many false data included in his endless brainwashing satsangs. Very crutial things like you are endebted to the master for this experience. You can only experience this bliss through the master and on and on. All of which are very incorrect but we have been brainwashed into believing him and it's VERY VERY hard now to KNOW that we CAN experience God/energy/sat chit anand (words he doesn't even use these days) in everything if We CHOOSE to WITHOUT HIM sometimes by meditation and also other ways. Perhaps, (unlike many premies these days, unfortunately) by trying to be ethical and being a good person may have much to do with experiencing this happiness without M. I am trying to unbrainwash myself here as well as trying to help others in the same jam, now knowing the things about M the person we now know. Best Regards, M's Manicurist

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 29, 2000 at 02:08:03 (GMT) From: Me Email: None To: M's Manicurist Subject: Seeing the Wood from the Trees Message:

Your post resonated with many of the mental conflicts that I have been wrestling with myself. The death of both my parents within a period of 6 months (now 4 years ago!)set of a process of self-questioning that I have yet to fully resolve. One thing is for sure - before I suffered the loss of my parents I had not previously been confronted with the death of those that were really close to me. A curious side effect of my loss was the humbling realisation that nearly everyone will (or has) face a similar loss in their lives - this thought somehow made me feel more connected to the rest of humanity than anything else that had happened in my life for as long as I can remember.Why am I talking about such a personal issue? Well the main reason is that for many years I was encouraged by M to 'cut my ties' with my parents - as a result I saw less of my parents than perhaps I otherwise would. I feel guilty about this because whatever the wisdom or no of M's 'advice' it was I that CHOSE to heed it! Finally I agree wholeheartedly with your suggestion of striving for 'ethical' behaviour and outlook - for I have found (maybe for the reasons you gave!) it very difficult to contemplate that connection to the wonderfull feelings that K unlocks WITHOUT relating it to M in some significant way. I have also found it nigh on impossible to 'self-motivate' myself or inspire myself in any way remotely that I have been inspired by listening to M speak. So for now I am still in a 'limbo' of sorts - but I must also admit that the thought that there is NO human being in this world that can really act as a bone-fide guide and teacher is a thought that I find somewhat depressing for I have serious doubts about my own capacity for integrity and whatever other qualities are necessary to take me back into that that living life of deep joy that however intermittant was the experience - it was enough to embed itself in my heart and memory as something never to give up striving for.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 18:17:04 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Susan Subject: **BEST OF** - the year, and the crux of the matter Message:

'It was a 'powerful' experience, but I do not think its power came from any kind of spirituality from Rawat. Like he said, its all inside us. He is right on that. What is wrong is he then somehow agrues we must be eternally grateful for pointing out to us that life is magical and a gift. Well, yes it is. But he didn't give me the gift. And I know all sorts of people who lead magical, wonderful, spiritual lives who have never heard of PPSR.' (PPSR=Prem Pal Singh Rawat) . . . This is the crux of the matter. Thanks, Susan. Chris.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 16:26:04 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: to Subject: Dreaming We're Awake / Beaming, He's a Fake Message:

When I received Knowledge, I said to myself 'What the fuck is this?' Only cult programming gave it any value at all. I was expecting a new and separate reality as strong as the ordinary everyday waking reality; the cult programming backfired on me, because the whole thing was about that we are presently 'dreaming we're awake' (as in the film by the same title). I knew I'd met my half of the bargain. I knewI'd been ripped off. Only cult programming kept that honest assessment suppressed: that there was no 'awakening' what-so-ever. None. I felt exactly the same. Like the little boy who sees that the Emperor is not wearing any clothes, a part of me instantly -- immeasurably fast, said 'this can't be it -- I'm doing it wrong, or worse, the Initiator did it wrong.' Like a failed virginal tryst, I thought I owed the acclaimed experience another try. I didn't need to worry about it for a while; the cult programming of that time was that it was all about having an experience of devotion to Maharaji, and that Knowledge was 'just' a tool He gave us to help us surrender to Him. Meditation is 'waiting at the door' (not pounding on it) and it was up to Him when -- and if -- the door opened (so you better be good, because Santa Claus is coming to town). My thinking at the time was, well, he knows how hard I'm trying here, and he knows how hard I'm trying not to try, but just be -- and all that other shit. I judged myself worthy enough; I fully believed I'd met my end of the bargain. I know that last part is probably where the soaked-in-cult-bullshit premie is going to go 'Ahah!' but when you unsoak, you find that's all that is honestly there: bargain, and fulfillment. He asked me (as far as I was concerned, it was personal to a one) to surrender the reins of my life to him, and then he would give me peace. I took him at his word. Since this was the 'primordial vibration' I figured he was the 'giver of the Knowledge of the primordial vibration' and that he was the giver, not just some giver or other. He was the man to go see. That was my thinking; that was my belief. I continued to believe I'd met my end of the bargain, and when nothing good happened to me, I had little choice left but to resign myself to the let-down I'd set myself up for the moment I bought into the cult premise.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 15:35:54 (GMT) From: a0aji Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com To: Mel Bourne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

I hope you'll keep coming back here, Mel.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 15:20:23 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: My second valentine to Mel Message:

What can I say? You're showing some guts and honesty when you say this, Mel. Good for you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 15:36:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Mel, I forgot. Beware the 'Stockholm Syndrome' Message:

Hey, don't forget, your mind could also be kidnapped by the evil ex-premie cult. You could start identifying with your captors, making them lunch, getting up -- on your own! -- to change channels. Careful, Mel. But tell me, isn't the real burn knowing that, in this one little way at least, Maharaji's been laughing at you all along? And to think that you trusted him? Oh weLLLLLLllllll!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 12:54:05 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: I guess the evidences are not enough Message:

for you . Time to reorganize your defences for maraaji 'I suppose'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 12:43:31 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

'I must also admit, that like Bjorn. SHP and others , I have had very positive and peaceful experiences in the presence of Maharaji, not hyped or hysterical in the 'Bhole shri' context, but more in the restful sense of the experience of 'holy name'. (Not to mention experiences of Darshan - indescribable)' Mel, Just a quick note to say that I also had great experiences in meditation and darshan...the thing is I still do have the same experiences,but I do not associate those experiences with m or anyone or anything else. It is just life and loads of people are having 'those' experiences. It just hard to see and admit that as a premie. There's a great party waiting for you around the corner. Jethro

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 12:21:26 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Deception at the heart of the cult Message:

Hi Mel, I too had 'blissful'experiences in darshan- and passed out several times over the years. Naturally, when I left the cult, I looked back at these experiences and tried to figure out what was going on. I came to the conclusion that my 'bliss'was really no different from the bliss any devotee feels from their master- whovever that person may be, or the bliss a young girl feels when she sees her favorite boyband live. (I remember people passing out in a darshan line where there was a photo of Maharaji leaning against a chair. Was that a 'genuine experience of inner bliss too?). When Maharaji was in Paris last, several old premie friends stayed with me. After the programme I saw this 'bliss'from another persepective Mel- and believe me, it was not nice. The first analogy that comes to mind is a fifteen year old coming home and telling her parents that she was madly in love with a forty year old married man and they were going to run away together for a life of bliss. Whatever arguments the parents would put up against the plan, the girl would reply in her blissed out way, making the answers up as she went along, repeating things she heard, not really caring even that she was contradicting herself because she was in love and having an experience. To put it another way- it was like talking to an imature idiot. I guess we're not so smart as we thought we were. Take it easy Mel Anth the blissful

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 20:01:37 (GMT) From: Liz Email: None To: AJW Subject: Love is Blind Message:

Dear Anth, I think I'm having another drip, drip, drip, experience.....I was a Beatles fan in the 60s and went to see them on one occasion. IT WAS EXACTLY THE SAME EXPERIENCE, (MAYBE NOT SO HOLIER THAN THOU!) By the way, it took me a while to figure out what boyband was!! Hey Anth, a new word for that time after you wake up but you don't want to get up......BEDITATION! Bye for now, Liz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 20:11:32 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Liz Subject: Best time of the day - got a Masters in it! (nt) Message:

Basters in Meditation... I mean Mesters in Barditation ... no ... Marders in Bestitation ... er... Barders in Mestitation .... that was it! Besters in Masturbation ... er ... yeah. That's it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 05:59:31 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Marianne Subject: I've always seen the similarities Message:

Between Jim Jones and M. I guess the only difference is M isn't insane, is he? Just how sane can a person be if they do believe they are 'Lord of the Universe,' Divine or whatever. I don't think M has a jungle hideaway but there is the Ivory Rocks Site. Frankly, I don't put anything past M or his PAM's. Interesting post Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 06:17:55 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Not sure about M's mental functioning Message:

Given what I learned about Peoples Temple, I must question M's mental functioning given the level of deception required of those closest to him. Wasn't the whole trip supposed to be about Truth? Apparently, it is about deception. Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 12:19:39 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Not sure about M's mental functioning Message:

Good Morning Marianne:) You know, he might as well have put us in the jungle. You could be in the same town as your family and friends, and not even in the ashram, but the programming effectively put you a million miles away. One ashram resident from hartford conn went home for thanksgiving and one of her relatives said, '_____ dear, I hear you are involved with a group..' She told us she said 'Yes, guru maharaj ji's knowledge is so powerful that if you cut off my mothers head and put it on a plate in front of me It wouldnt even effect me.' I can only imagine the reaction at the dinner table! Silence, gasps, getting up for bathrooms and kitchen, and a change of subjects. I WOULD have drunk the koolaid if m asked. NO premies would have followed anyone as dumb as Jim Jones!! (that is what we thought at the time)!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Oct 27, 2000 at 00:05:11 (GMT) From: Peter Howie Email: None To: bill Subject: Not sure about M's mental functioning Message:

I remember thinking in my own twisted way that I would take poison and it would be OK because it was M asking me not some cult leader. I mean I was full of stories of devotees who had done such things and been OK. I was sure that if M asked me that I would be OK. As for killing others - I thought that I would be then learning the lila of not obeying my master. I couldn't get with the idea of actually doing it but I could get with M telling me about how I didn't truct enough etc etc. Cheeers Peter

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 14:36:40 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: bill Subject: Jim and Prem Message:

I remember when the Jim Jones thing I had a conversation with Loring Baker. The gist of it was that people would now be confusing us with them and thinking we were a cult. Those poor people they just don't get it, was the shared understanding. Us poor people, we just didn't get it!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 17:38:03 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Marianne Subject: At the Heart of the Cult: Secrets and Lies Message:

Hi Marianne, This post of yours has reminded me that secrets and lies were perpetuated throughout the cult. It didn't surprise me at all when Michael Dettmers disclosed the x-rating thing. For instance, (sigh) the DECA project. When I first arrived there I was briefed on confidentiality, what was expected of me in the situation I was in. At that time goomraji was in England and I was in the tiny Hialeah office answering phones and doing office work. Hardly high up on the scale of PAMs, BUT, the secrets were big. This confidentiality included keeping information from other premies on the project like the workers in the shop, always a need to know thing. The people who were involved in the finances at the warehouse itself, never told us what they were up to, but the office was so small it was hard not to know that 'fishy' things were going on--I never questioned anything. The hierarchy, as I look back, was not limited to the PAMs. I was asked to lie, be a part of activities which were clearly illegal, like the incident when a premie was smuggling documents out of Boeing and participating in preparing them for the staff, and goomraji (I can never be convinced he didn't know about that activity.) Particularly disturbing to me now is that I remember how essential that secrecy was to the success of the '707 project.' Now, as I look back at the whole picture of my involvment in the cult, the secrets and lies existed everywhere on a hierarchal (sp) basis. What this turns out to be is very simply, knowledge (small k) is power. I learned this specifically when I was a personel administrator for a law firm. I knew just about everything that was going, i.e.,confidential employee information, employee/lawyer conflicts, partner and management commmittee information. This set me apart from everyone else in the firm. Those who where in lateral positions to mine resented the power I had because of the information I possessed and couldn't, because of the nature of my job, talk about it. It was a lonely job. So, PAMs had the most close-up info, living and working around goomraji. Initiators also had to keep secrets, but when touring around ashrams, community coordinators would be informed about certain stuff that would not be shared with the premie community nor ashram premies. Then during those special times (probably fund raising efforts) the honcho initiators would come and talk to the communities, sharing veiled information about what goomraji wanted from us, but at the ashrams, the initiators would often inform us of stuff that was never revealed to the community premies. What I think I'm trying to say is that the whole thing was based on who was 'entitled' to 'know' something secret. A true believer as myself felt 'privileged' to have a secret to keep. Remember the old expression 'spiritual ego?' I experienced that because I was quite plugged into service in the Hartford community. By the time I got to Miami, I felt extra privileged to be 'in on' such a huge secret project (for my lord). I was on one of the tiers of the hierarchy and felt very fortunate talking to goomraji, seeing him, doing things no one was ever supposed to know about, etc. I, too, got to sit in the front of the halls in reserved seats, because we worked straight through all the programs M held, and would I would be told when M's arrival time would be, and then we would drive to the program. Don't think I didn't want all my friends from Hartford seeing me up there, walking in to be seated in the front, or going up on the stage to place flowers near his thrown. That was my so-called 'spiritual ego.' YUCK. When the Jim Jones tragedy occurred, I remember thinking about what my limits were with goomraji. We were in place at the big complex by then and the mass suicide was definitely a concern for many of us who worried about being viewed as a cult. However, I do recall vividly the decisions I made at that point--while still believing he was 'my lord.' I decided that I would NEVER commit suicide at goomraji's request and that I would never kill anyone at this request. I find it stunning now, that I would have had to even think about such things. Somewhere inside of me I knew that the possibility of his making such heinous requests could occur. Very scary indeed. I really appreciate your recent posts here Marianne. Thanks so much. Best, Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Oct 26, 2000 at 19:46:35 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: At the Heart of the Cult: Paranoia Message:

I wasn't surprised either, I had assumed a 'vetting' process would take place. I remember a sense of bewilderment at the secrecy and gossip, and the genuine fear of letting slip the wrong piece of information to the wrong person, and what world shattering pieces of information are we talking about here? the colour of the carpet in the Lord's dressing room? God, the organisation Elan Vital is SO repressive, there must be a real secret to hide, possibly the big one, that 'the Lord' is a megalomaniac drunkard who doesn't have a clue what he's doing and doesn't really love his lovers.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index