Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 00:57:17 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: chr Subject: Answers Message:

chr, 1. Did M ever express doubts to you about his mission or who he was or about its failings? Maharaji often reminded instructors and the people around him that he was under no obligation to spread knowledge to the world. When he made such comments, there was always an implied threat that he could simply close up shop, leaving everyone high and dry. First he created a culture of dependence, then he threatened to take away that which had become the purpose and focus of people’s lives. He usually pulled this stunt when he was dissatisfied with something or other and wanted people to make more effort and express more love and devotion to him. During 1984, however, at a time when he and Marolyn were in the midst of their marriage difficulties, he went through a period when he was more subdued and reflective that usual. During moments when he felt sadness and vulnerability, he told me he sometimes felt like calling it quits. These moments quickly passed, however, and he carried on as though he had never spoken those words. 2. Was M keeping mainly gifts from premies in the warehouses because, as I was told, he treasured the devotion it was all given with? Yes. 3. I'm curious what your perception was of Raja Ji, his role and where he fits in. I know that Raja Ji has come in for a bit of flack on the Forum and I understand why. However, Raja Ji was always a friend during the time I was involved with Maharaji and, to some extent, that friendship continues to this day. When we speak, which is not often, we have agreed to focus on any and all topics other than Maharaji. Consequently, I don’t know what his current role is or where he fits in. I do know he is happily married to a wonderful woman, and that he is very proud of his two grown daughters who are on the road to establishing successful careers that have nothing whatsoever to do with Maharaji and his organization. 4. Was Mishler misquoted about firearms being stored in various places and ashrams around the country, was he lying, or was there something we didn't know about going on? I am not aware of any firearms being stockpiled in the ashrams or anywhere else for that matter. I didn’t read the Mishler article so I can't comment on it. I do remember a conversation with Bob in which he expressed his opinion that Maharaji’s security guards at the Malibu residence should wear uniforms and be licensed to carry a side arm. Maharaji nixed the idea and it was never revived, at least during my tenure. Bill, your story about the security guy in Miami is news to me. Michael

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 13:38:49 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: jed53@hotmail.com To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Just curious Message:

In the late 80s prempal did an instructor training course in Penang. One of the particpants there told me that he had some disagreement with someone and made allthe candidates stand uo in a group and videod them saying 'fuck you'. I was told this by Lee Marges, an Australian pwk, who I know to be completely honest.(I doubt that she talks to me now). Oh yes, Lee herself refused to participate. Anyway, I just wondered if you knew anything about this. Jethro PS apologies to all who have seen this before, I put this info up some time ago. PPS to any Ozs reading this. If you see Lee or Sam Bender(her husband) please tell them to email me on the above email and not be angry with me. I see no reason why what Lee told me should not be made public. Pwk's should know the character of their leader.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 13:59:50 (GMT) From: Put you in the picture Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Just curious Message:

Lee is now an Instructor.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:58:13 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: jed53@hotmail.com To: Put you in the picture Subject: Just curious Message:

Dear puitp Thanks but sad to hear it. Is Sam still sucked in? I was really good friends with Sam before either of us became prenies. In fact Sam 'brought me to k'. I have tried, unsuccessfully, to contact them a few times in last few years. I expect it is because I am public ex, but am surprised that at least Sam hasn't contacted me, if only to bollock me. I find it really difficult to believe that Sam is still involved. The last time I saw him was when I visited Oz in 1993(approx) and although we were both still premies then, he had alot to say in criticism of prempal. I realy hope he somehow contacts me. Anyway, if anyone knows him, tell him I now have a new life-partner and am having the most incredible years of my life. Even better than the buzz of discovering that the Lord of the Universe is on the planet. Cheers Jethro

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 21:51:48 (GMT) From: PYITP Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Just curious Message:

Every reason to believe he will get your message.I dont think it's how you say with them. Happy people-still enjoying what you found you couldn't.

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 22:27:11 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: PYITP Subject: Just curious Message:

PYITP I was one of the happiest premies around and probably brought I don't know how many people to prempal. Even after being thrown out of the ashram onto the street, I still went around praising Him. When I clicked that prem was a con, I became even happier after nearly commiting suicide several times thinking I had totally dissed my own life. I have no doubt now that all the love and 'cosmic' experiences that I still continue to have belong to me and I can give it to whom and what I like. I am glad that you say Sam and Lee are happy. Anyway if you see Sam, tell him I still love him and that our own personal history of going thru a very hairy situation together and surviving, is much more real than his 'connection' with prempal. If I embarrassed Lee by puting up the 'fuck-you' video story, she should understand that I just can't stand the revisionism that prempal has indulged in revisionism in his adult life. In so far as I am concerned, if anyone is considering 'receiving knowledge', they should be properly informed before making any decisions. Even if that means loosing friends. So PYITP tell sam to email me or phone me. So although I have moved I still have the same phone number. Cheers Jethro

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 23:48:46 (GMT) From: PYITP Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Just curious Message:

I would say he will have already heard your comments Jethro. But in any case , for sure......

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:00:20 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: PYITP Subject: Thanks (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 00:59:14 (GMT) From: ham the hamzen Email: None To: PYITP Subject: And we're going to kidnap and take him to a desert Message:

rave, and spike him with drugs, until he realizes that everything he credits to gm is actually his own oh and if you're reading this robyn heslop the same applies to you, after all I do still owe you one too, although you've probably completely forgotten mike cobb who used to be with carol in Edgware in 1974, and still has a soft spot for yer, yer wild man, jeesus I've still got a picture of you at robin & mandy's wedding in that dodgy pimps orange suit, with yer bushwacka beard. PYITP if you could pass this message on appreciated, even telepathically via the guru, IF you must. I would also add that Jethro the fisherman is on a really good one now, mind you it took him long enough, hah! I would also add that I too got everything from k I wanted and hoped for, more than really, but gm obviously wasn't too kean on letting people into it, and neither is he very good at helping them once there, still with all his real estate, drugs and mistresses, I'm amazed he's got any time for premies at all. yours in the beat ham PS Forum admins, the top part of this post is an in-joke, ok!

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 01:06:19 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: ham the hamzen Subject: Come to think of it........ Message:

I owe sam one like you owe robin....completely forgot that cup of coffee he gave in Tel Aviv. Jethro

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 14:51:48 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Jethro Subject: Just curious Message:

Sorry Jethro, I don't know anything about it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:48:06 (GMT) From: chr Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Answers Message:

Thanks Michael. Bill and Cynthia, I was involved in security at three different residences, and I was never aware of any firearms, even during the Deca days.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 01:25:21 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Michael - One more question Message:

I think you must have participated in Instructor Trainings and the like as well as spending a lot of time with M. Do you know whether M ever practiced Knowledge on a regular basis? Thanks again for your continued forthrightness.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 14:48:29 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Postie Subject: One more answer Message:

If you have finally recognized that devotion to Maharaji is the beginning and end of the so called 'knowledge' he offers, then Maharaji definately practices knowledge. I say this because he is absolutely devoted to, and focused on, himself to the exclusion of anyone and anything else.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:22:32 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Michael: Did M meditate? Message:

Excellent point. That sums up 'knowledge' precisely and puts the M / K relationship in focus. Those few lines deserve a **best of** status. More specifically though, did M ever meditate or otherwise use any 'yogic technique' to focus / relax or was he under the assumption that since he was the 'master' he didn't need to do that? I remember at Guru Puja Montrose in 1972 he said 'you don't meditate for me, you meditate for yourself, I am high enough, I'm already at that infinite state'. I also recall a post here that when Marolyn had her brain surgery M was very upset / agitated. When one of his doctors (Dr. John?) suggested he meditate his response was that he didn't need to do that. Lately I've wondered if he ever really meditated consistently to a point it could be relied upon as solid ground in a storm, so to speak. The more I write, the more rhetorical this sounds but I'm still curious what your observation was.

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 19:46:32 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Postie Subject: Did M meditate? Message:

Postie, I mentioned in an earlier post that I never saw Maharaji seated in formal meditation. Since I didn't follow him into his bedroom I suppose it is possible that he meditated at that time except, of course, when he was in a drunken stupor and had to be carried to his bedroom. You raise an interesting point about Maharaji’s need or not to meditate. I think it is safe to say that anyone who has achieved mastery in some domain continues to practice diligently in order to sustain his or her mastery. The arts and sports worlds are replete with top performers who continue to practice diligently. Judging by his depraved behavior, and the dismal results of his efforts to spread his knowledge, it would appear that Maharaji has long lost whatever mastery he claims to possess. Michael

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 00:35:43 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Michael Dettmers Subject: Michael: r.e., meditation Message:

Michael, You stated many posts ago that you still practice Knowlege, and that you do another meditation. Would you mind telling us what it is. And how do you feel about the four techniques of Knowledge? Do you think they work, i.e., make people happy and content?

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Date: Mon, Feb 05, 2001 at 14:27:03 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Deputy Dog Subject: r.e., meditation Message:

Hi Dog, If I said I practiced knowledge, then I misspoke. As I said in my response to Postie above, expressing and experiencing devotion to M is ultimately what practicing knowledge is all about. If people understanding that the four techniques were not invented by M and that he has nothing whatsoever to do with any experience that may be derived from practicing them, then perhaps some people may find them useful. I choose not to practice the four techniques for two reasons. First, there is simply too much baggage associated with them. Second, I have since adopted other “centering” practices that are more suited to my needs. I sit in formal meditation every day for 30 – 40 minutes using a breathing technique. I also work 3 or 4 times a week with a stick known as a “jo” in Aikido. This practice is very effective for focusing, aligning and extending my energy and intent in a specific direction. Finally, I periodically use a technology tool called Hemi-Sync. This practice helps me to visualize desired outcomes and also helps stimulate creativity. All of these practices complement my desire to lead a meaningful and full life. I do not practice them so that I can escape from the world but rather so that I can engage more fully and effectively in the world. And their effectiveness is not dependent upon surrendering to anyone. Hope this answers your question. Michael

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 06:37:01 (GMT) From: Virgil Email: Yeah Virgil To: Michael Dettmers Subject: r.e., meditation Message:

So to me Mike , that is where you lost the plot. Knowledge IS what it is all about. M? Well he is the teacher for scmucks like us. (ie; he's the one who showed us this thing) Go play with your stick Mike - you finally found what you were looking for.

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 20:43:27 (GMT) From: Insideout Email: None To: Virgil Subject: r.e., meditation Message:

jez Virg, you havn't changed a bit. Still a grumpy ol' bugger. What are you doing here? Keeping an eye on Michael? Take care, join in the fun Insideout

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 14:03:36 (GMT) From: Michael Dettmers Email: dettmers@gylanix.com To: Virgil Subject: r.e., meditation Message:

Virgil, I lost the plot back in 1971 when I projected a Catholic upbringing into believing that I had found the Lord of the Universe in a 12 year old Indian boy who possessed the “Truth” and came into the world to spread his knowledge. At that time, nothing seemed more attractive to me than to be a part of that noble cause and I joined in enthusiastically. It took me almost 20 years to finally accept that he is nothing more that a drunken fraud. My reasons for saying so are well documented on this site. The day I let him go is the day I took back my own life and once again regained my right to create my own plot. For better or worse, it is my plot and I’m no longer the “schmuck” who needs such a teacher. By the way Virgil, saying that “Knowledge IS what it is all about” is a self-referencing statement that is meaningless. Are you the same Virgil I worked with for so many years while I was serving M? If you are then, as a lawyer, you should know better than to spout such platitudes. Anyway, we should get together, shoot some pool and rehash old and new times, just like the old days. Michael

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 08:13:19 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Virgil Subject: Virgil,Were you in India in 1981? Message:

If you are that Virgil....well I won't say anything at the moment. Jethro

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 12:49:02 (GMT) From: PYITP Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Virgil,Were you in India in 1981? Message:

Heh, heh , heh. Hey Homer that got them chewing over the fat!!

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Date: Tues, Feb 06, 2001 at 16:30:50 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: PYITP Subject: Virgil,Were you in India in 1981? Message:

Mike D's post above confirms my memory of Virgil(one of prem's lawyers) being in India in 1981. I was in India with a group of (premie)consultants. I was the IT person. It was my service to try and introduce sampuranand, dipak and whatisname to computer usage. We also gave talks around the place(ie India). Rajeswar took mw around to meet his former Indian-legal-people friends. He wanted to show his former colleagues, how his guru had Western devotees who give satsang. We stayed at the Kanishka hotel and I also stayed at an ashram in Delhi. That is where is I met Virgil and heard about his antics which I refused to believe of a premie, especially the lord's lawyer. I won't say more at the present, I'll just say that had I verified the truth of what I was told, I would have definitely puched him very hard on the nose(yes harder than Ron Geaves threatened me with last year), and and got him arrested. Virgil, consider replying. I really have a problem keeping my mouth shut. PYITP, were you in India at that time? Jethro

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Date: Wed, Feb 07, 2001 at 03:10:05 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Virgil Subject: Virgil, I remember you, you were at DECA, too... Message:

Hi Virgil, You won't remember me, I was just one of the slaves at DECA who you frequently terrified by your irreverant and disrespecful behavior toward woman, and lower class premies as well. I remember you very well. ''If its Maharaji, Jim Hession or Virgil, it's a 'right away call'.'' Thank you for all your nice manners!! I remember Virgil very well. Anything for Goomraji, right? Care to answer? Are you as brave as Michael Dettmers? Let's have a conversation. Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:54:44 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: chr Subject: Questions Message:

In Miami, I heard that the security house was indeed armed. m said at one point to a security guy, 'you have your hardware, but what about your software' and he poked the guy in the ribs hard with his hand and broke a couple of the guys ribs. Michael might confirm this or deny this?

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 20:03:00 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: chr Subject: Questions--Deca Message:

Hi chr, I know you addressed this to Michael, but I worked at Deca in the Design Office and also ''maintained his suite of offices'' there. First floor, front offices off the main shop. I had access to nearly every area in the complex. Where was the place at Deca where the gifts were kept? Upstairs? Hmmm....I wonder if I know you.... Just curious and a little nosey, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 21:56:51 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Questions--Deca Message:

Hi Cynthia, it was at the other end of DECA and on the second floor. Chicken wire and wood walls. And always someone doing service gaurding it. 24 hours a day I bet.

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 23:03:29 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: bill Subject: Questions--Deca--bill, I remember that place... Message:

hi bill, Just the mention of DECA triggers me a lot. What's it like for you, have you gotten over it? Too personal? I have many blocked memories of DECA. I find it difficult sometimes to put events in chronological order, etc. I know they're all up there in my noggin'. I remember how exhausted I was, you and any one here or lurking knows that feeling of 'I absolutely cannot go on, but I will for my Lard' exhaustion. Phew! What a slave driver, so often, one of his whimsical ideas, or dark tirades, left premies slaving for days without sleep. Fucking Brat. Hear that EV monitors! He's got you reading us because he's a fucking brat!!! (chuckle) Are you doing it because he's your LORD???? Looking back, it was such a fucking weird fucking place. Bizarre! All I wanted while I was there was darshan, that's it. My magical thinking about M's power was at it's height. My guilt about not doing enough (LOL) was also at it's height. What a weird place. Swan and I would go on jaunts (having a car most every day helped) and literally hit all the tackiest crafts stores to buy do-dads for his royal arse's malas, pants, etc. Oooooooooh such bliss!:))) Personal service, wow man! I too, was well aware that security for M was packing heat. It would have been ludicrous for them NOT to, in Miami???! It was kind of a given because of what was going on at DECA, too. FAA fraud, theft of intellectual material from Boeing, a non-specified ''client,'' and all other crimes, or at least ''missdeeds'' going on. I can't remember M's body guard's name at the moment, but I remember always thinking: I pity the premie or anyone who messes with him! But he knew me and I was very reserved around M, so he never had any qualms about letting me into a private area. No smart cards back then:)))) Maharaji's presence frightened me, though. The big ole creepy crawler! What a big fat rat, eh? Hope you're well, bill--a hug to you. Love, Cynthia P.S. Have your dreams stopped??

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Date: Sun, Feb 04, 2001 at 05:05:44 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Questions--Deca--bill, I remember that place... Message:

Yes, thanks they have. In the Drekmasters red nighty series on his site, there is some DECA parts in there that describe the place partially. In honor of your post, I took a Ben and Jerry's out of the fridge while I type. Can you believe what David SUmmersong wrote?!

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Date: Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 16:47:43 (GMT) From: Jethrro Email: None To: chr Subject: Questions Message:

'I was told that they comprised mainly gifts from premies and that M had to keep them because they were given with devotion. The amount of stuff, much of it brand new,was astronomical. ' I did security of pp's property cica 1979 near his Reigate residence. It was in a hired barn on a farm which could also be described as a warehouse. There were piles of gifts from premies which I was told not to touch, in fact I was told not to touch anything, even the dust of his and darma pal's (RJ) cars. I don't know what happened to them(the gifts), but all I can say is that during the 3 months that I was there, they were never looked at by prempal or anyone else. I have to say that I once(shiveringly) peeked inside one box, and it was home-made tape of Muddy Waters songs. The note attached said, 'I really enjoy this, I hope you do too'. (Well, I had 12 hours shifts and no toilet. I kid you not and sometimes someone even brought me a meal. In fact that's where I met Aubrey West and his beloved. But that's neither here nor there). Jethro

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