Jim -:- A question for all new exes -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 22:42:40 (EST)

__ Mirror -:- Impossible to leave? -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 07:19:20 (EST)

__ Anandaji -:- Re: A question for all new exes -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:25:11 (EST)

Joe -:- The Cost of Amaroo -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:18:11 (EST)

__ Moll of Mole -:- Re: The Cost of Amaroo -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:52:16 (EST)

__ Boadicea -:- Re: Quoted B not me! -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:13:06 (EST)

__ __ JHB -:- EPO and Archives -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:26:18 (EST)

__ __ __ Boadicea -:- Re: Thanks John, I'll get the hang of it(nt) -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:19:40 (EST)

__ __ Moll of Mole -:- 'B' is my boyfriend not Boadicea NT -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:54:13 (EST)

__ housemother -:- Re: The Cost of Amaroo -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:00:15 (EST)

__ __ housemother -:- and another thing -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:42:21 (EST)

__ __ __ Boadicea -:- Re: Hi Housemother Ji! -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:12:17 (EST)

__ Roger eDrek -:- but the koolaid is free! (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:44:08 (EST)

__ __ Elan Vital -:- Correction -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 22:00:06 (EST)

__ __ __ How much for koolaid... -:- stirred with the Lord's swizzle stick? NT -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 22:09:11 (EST)

gErRy -:- The LoRd is here !!! -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:28:07 (EST)

__ Tim G -:- Re: No end to SUPERSTITION -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 20:00:42 (EST)

__ [Blank] -:- The LoRd is here !!! -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 16:48:05 (EST)

__ New-Age Redneck -:- JEEZUS mothaf....... -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:05:51 (EST)

__ housemother -:- Re: The LoRd is here !!! -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:54:02 (EST)

housemother -:- front row seats! -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:03:29 (EST)

__ Marshall -:- nt literally stands for no text (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:13:12 (EST)

__ __ housemother -:- Re: nt literally stands for no text (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:36:52 (EST)

__ __ __ Marshall -:- What I have deduced -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:48:30 (EST)

__ __ __ __ housemother -:- Re: What I have deduced -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:48:54 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Poor Booth Dyess/COLL -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 16:26:18 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ housemother -:- Booth and Bob/COLL -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 17:12:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Revisionism and Saving the World -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:30:50 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi Housemother -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:59:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ housemother -:- Re: Hi Housemother -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:23:22 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Sandwich bags? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:45:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ housemother -:- Re: Sandwich bags? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 15:05:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bob Garrett -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 16:30:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Bob Garrett -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 17:47:39 (EST)

Vicki -:- Something smells foul -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:59:34 (EST)

__ Chuck S. -:- Re: M's vocabulary... -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 15:23:20 (EST)

__ __ janet -:- dont forget the restaurant... -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:04:24 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- What about M's 'Fuck you!' video? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 17:55:58 (EST)

__ __ __ janet -:- it was to m donner -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:05:59 (EST)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- It was Jethro -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:23:59 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Naw ........ -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:14:43 (EST)

ExP -:- Disconnect -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 09:22:02 (EST)

__ JHB -:- ExP: Are you new here? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 15:23:03 (EST)

__ Vicki -:- Re: Disconnect -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:47:24 (EST)

__ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Disconnect -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:52:11 (EST)

__ __ __ Anandaji -:- Name calling isn't cool -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:56:35 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Wonderful post Anandaji -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 07:08:57 (EST)

__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Disconnect -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:18:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Steve Mueller -:- Re: Disconnect -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:54:37 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Talk about 'disconnect' -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 18:00:47 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- A perfect example, Steve -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 20:30:08 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, exactly -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 20:41:38 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- I'll bet it was -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:00:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hoc Tui -:- Re: I'll bet it was -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:06:35 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- True -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:19:02 (EST)

__ __ ExP -:- Re: True -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:13:25 (EST)

housemother -:- how many premies are there now? -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 23:55:39 (EST)

__ fly on wall -:- Re: how many premies are there now? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 18:14:02 (EST)

__ Mirror -:- how many ex-premies?? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:42:26 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Re: how many ex-premiess??s?? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:14:57 (EST)

__ I know -:- Detroit-usa -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 08:45:19 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- One too many IMO. nt -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 08:35:47 (EST)

__ __ silvia -:- juajuajuahahahahah NT -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 08:45:51 (EST)

__ AJW -:- UK Numbers. -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 05:09:27 (EST)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- France numbers -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 06:30:16 (EST)

__ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: France numbers -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:25:24 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- More on French numbers -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:22:02 (EST)

__ __ __ Ulf -:- skandinavian numbers. -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 07:06:14 (EST)

__ Joe -:- Hi Mom -- less all the time -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 00:27:47 (EST)

__ __ The Maharaji of Malibu's -:- existing herd... -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 07:26:55 (EST)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, a middle-aged group (nt) -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 16:31:54 (EST)

gerry -:- Hey Cat Fucking Weasel you shithead -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 22:15:08 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- What a great article. -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 08:40:51 (EST)

__ __ Marianne -:- Thanks for posting the article, Gerry -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:44:25 (EST)

__ __ CW -:- Why have you? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:17:16 (EST)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- Listen, you mother fucker.......... -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:32:03 (EST)

__ __ __ __ CW -:- Been taking 'Angry' pills?? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 20:39:12 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Addendum.........better yet -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:40:19 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: Addendum.........better yet -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:48:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Re: Addendum.........better yet -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:10:06 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- okay John, explain... -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:41:16 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- His partner's a premie -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 06:59:46 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Zip -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 23:56:21 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: Addendum.........better yet -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:29:55 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Thanks, Gerry, for that link.... -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 03:38:21 (EST)

__ Cat Fucking Weasel -:- You called Mr Hanky? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 03:04:53 (EST)

__ janet -:- give us the article, not the newspaper -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 00:20:49 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- Here it is! -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 00:59:49 (EST)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Indeed, there is LIFE after the cult -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 22:53:30 (EST)

Joe -:- Deepak Raj Bhandari -- Jagdeo Situation -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 19:48:33 (EST)

__ Abi -:- email please -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:17:49 (EST)

__ Ex Premie -:- Satpal's claims -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 04:33:00 (EST)

__ __ Joe -:- Re: Satpal's claims -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 22:13:32 (EST)

__ __ housemother -:- Re: Satpal's claims -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 17:41:32 (EST)

__ __ Disculta -:- He's got an army! -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:44:01 (EST)

__ __ __ ExP -:- Re: He's got an army! -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:06:15 (EST)

__ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Inspection Results -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:12:40 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- LOOK, LOOK at the Satpal Army photos -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:50:27 (EST)

__ __ livia dowte -:- Re: Satpal's claims -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 08:08:21 (EST)

gerry -:- Hey I'm Famous! -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:31:00 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Lucky bastard.... -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:54:13 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- My two day drunk -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 19:01:45 (EST)

__ New-Age Redneck -:- You might be... -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:36:25 (EST)

__ __ gerry -:- No more full of it than I am... -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:45:36 (EST)

New-Age Redneck -:- It seems to me... -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 17:49:22 (EST)

__ Mirror -:- Re: It seems to me... -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:05:30 (EST)

__ __ New-Age Redneck -:- You mean????? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:14:00 (EST)

__ __ __ Mirror -:- Re: You mean????? -:- Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 06:59:01 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- I see what you are saying -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 09:10:33 (EST)

__ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: I see what you are saying -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:23:31 (EST)

__ Guru Mariachi -:- Aha! There your are!! -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 22:49:52 (EST)

__ __ New-Age Redneck -:- The Grateful Living -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:56:47 (EST)

__ Will -:- Right you are -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 17:59:51 (EST)

__ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Hey Will -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:28:30 (EST)

Deputy Dog -:- Reality, reality, reality, reality. -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 13:29:51 (EST)

__ JohnT -:- No! Reality, reality, reality. -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:11:14 (EST)

__ __ Jim -:- 'Reality' can't be subjective -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:29:26 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- The real Real World -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:17:57 (EST)

__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Might I add.... -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:55:00 (EST)

__ Tonette -:- Oh grow up already! -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 07:59:32 (EST)

__ PatD -:- Re: Reality, reality, reality, reality. -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 19:33:36 (EST)

__ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Reality, reality, reality, reality. -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 16:37:38 (EST)

__ __ Nige -:- Grrrreat post, Redneck...! -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 21:51:10 (EST)

__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Speaking to your heart -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:33:06 (EST)

__ Jerry -:- How much reading have you done? -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:51:59 (EST)

__ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: How much reading have you done? -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 23:19:21 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: How much reading have you done? -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 03:50:27 (EST)

__ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- I'm not Nige :-) -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:27:31 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Bloody redneck crackers everywhere :C) -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:52:36 (EST)

__ __ Nigel -:- A reviewer's quote... -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 19:58:12 (EST)

__ PatC -:- Before you leave, Dog -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:38:51 (EST)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Thanks PatC - later -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:54:46 (EST)

__ __ __ PatC -:- I don't want to convert you, Dog -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 17:01:38 (EST)

__ Cynthia -:- Re: Reality, reality, reality, reality. -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:19:41 (EST)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Cynthia -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:51:08 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Dog... -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 17:58:54 (EST)

__ Sir Dave -:- Dentists and Heaven -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:26:10 (EST)

__ __ Disculta -:- Re: Dentists and Heaven -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 01:07:00 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You brave girl -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 02:49:06 (EST)

__ AJW -:- The Fundamental Reality. -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:19:04 (EST)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: The Fundamental Reality. -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:28:00 (EST)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Reality is a headache -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:55:44 (EST)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Re: The Fundamental Reality. -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:42:49 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: The Fundamental Reality. -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:31:17 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Trouble is Dog... -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 04:45:11 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- Re: Trouble is Dog... -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:24:09 (EST)

__ Jim -:- Why don't you learn to speak english??? -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:13:46 (EST)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Why don't you learn to speak english? -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:30:05 (EST)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- About Attorneys, Dog... -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:15:04 (EST)

__ __ __ Jim -:- That's it? -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:34:04 (EST)

__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: That's it? -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:38:39 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- This is empty, worthless fluff -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:05:41 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir David Spock -:- The nature of the Universe is chaos -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 09:37:33 (EST)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Jim, he is brain damaged for now. -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 09:25:08 (EST)

__ Will -:- Clarifications please -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 13:54:31 (EST)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Clarifications please -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:26:53 (EST)

__ __ __ Will -:- DD, about those 'clarifications' -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:33:57 (EST)

__ __ __ New-Age Redneck -:- What's a 'toa' dog? -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:29:10 (EST)

Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 22:42:40 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: A question for all new exes Message:

Over on LG, the premie forum that's now even quieter than normal, I've been arguing with a couple of premie regulars about the trend, as I understand it, of people leaving and the reasons they do. In particular, citing what some of you yourselves have said as well as other reports, I've maintained that it's not exactly 'business as usual' in EV right now and that, in fact, people have indeed been leaving in noticeably large numbers. While I know it's hard to gauge this kind of thing, especially when your own leaving necessarily removes you from the centre of activity, such as it is, I wonder if you could comment further? Likewise, whilst some of the diehard premie posters scoff at the effect of EPO and other ex sites such as this one, I understand that these sites are indeed having a huge impact on premies, at least in places where the internet is common and accessible. Could you please comment on this as well? Thanks

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 07:19:20 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: Jim Subject: Impossible to leave? Message:

I know that 'my instructor' (Rody Schmull from Holland) got involved with M when he was 19 or so. Very young. He is now well in his forty's, has never made a career for himself, no pension built up, completely dedicated his life to M. Although I think it is highly unlikely, just suppose someone like that would want to leave the cult? Where do you go if you're that far in? At middle-age? No working experience what so ever, not even entitled to unemployment benefits because he's never worked. Are there any exes here who came out from that position? Just curious, Mirror

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:25:11 (EST) From: Anandaji Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: A question for all new exes Message:

I just left last December. I was not a regular around Minneapolis for some years, so am for the most part quite out of touch with the 'church lady' crowd. Thus far, I have only presented my EPO discovery with one other premie, a good friend, via email. He had already mentally left the group some time ago, but he is now reading EPO and we are having a very lively communication --- the best we have ever had, as a matter of fact. I am continually impressed by how this is the greatest and most truthful satsang I have ever heard/read and ENJOYED. As far as the impact on the rest of the Minneapolis community, I do know that another exe who posts here sent out a dozen packets to premies of EPO material. Steve! Are you reading this? What has been the reaction thus far. If I learn anything more about this community, I will let you know. Personally, I think EPO must be having a HUGE impact. I don't see how EV and M can last beyond this year. Anandaji

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:18:11 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: All Subject: The Cost of Amaroo Message:

We heard that Amaroo is in hock to the tune of $10 million (US) and the annual cost of Amaroo is US$500,000 and they don't have the money anymore to both do that and pay for the goo's Gulfstream Jet, which costs even more than that. Hence Amaroo may be sold. Here is how Moll of the Mole and Bodecia described how it costs that much. I thought this was important to bring up IMO, although I wonder how someone can live on $15,000, and wonder also how it is possible to have a 2% interest rate: 'B' said it goes something like this, 10 staff X 15 thousand US = 150,000. Interest on 10 mill at 2% is 200,000. Which leaves 150,000 for rates, insurance, leases, legal fees, maintenance on the 6 toilet blocks, 2 halls, residence for his guruness, 10 cabins for the hangers on, 2 office blocks, 1 restaurant, 1 swimming pool ( for his guruness) 1 tennis court (same) 1 large hole in the ground where his guruness speaks, 1 gate house, 1 caretakers house and assorted workshops. I town centre area with cabins and huts for food and shade areas, 4 klms of road and 10 of unsealed road, water storage and treatment system, sewerage treatment system, underground power and 2000 acres of scrubby old Australian bush. Is this generally the situation? BTW, I have heard US pwks complain of flies, dust, and ungodly heat at Amaroo, not to mention how fucking hard and expensive it is to get to that remote corner of the world.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:52:16 (EST) From: Moll of Mole Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: The Cost of Amaroo Message:

I wonder how someone can live on $15,000, and wonder also how it is possible to have a 2% interest rate: < --- Joe, 15,000 is an average wage (US Dollars) and most of the loans are with premies who have offered the funds at a reduced rate. MoM

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:13:06 (EST) From: Boadicea Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Quoted B not me! Message:

Dear Joe, Hiya! Just for the record,I did not post anything re Amaroo running costs and debts. Must be a different B. BTW I can't seem to connect to EPO site. I am trying to access the last 700 messages. Would they be archived now? If not, how do I get them on screen. Love Boadicea the Pagan Luddite

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 02:26:18 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Boadicea Subject: EPO and Archives Message:

EPO appears to be down at the moment. I've raised a ticket with the hosting company's help desk. Forum archives work like this. I take regular snapshots of the forum. Then when I have the time, I run a program to format the archive file into a friendlier form. I then put this on EPO, adding the links to the Forum 7 archive page. Often, I run into a problem where Hotboards has assigned the same message number to two posts. When this happens one of the posts is lost, and the formatting program stops with an error message. When this happens I have to manually edit the file changing references to the duplicate message number. Currently, I am several weeks behind with this process, as the move to a new server over Christmas continues to cause problems. John Brauns webmaster www.ex-premie.org

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:19:40 (EST) From: Boadicea Email: None To: JHB Subject: Re: Thanks John, I'll get the hang of it(nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:54:13 (EST) From: Moll of Mole Email: None To: Boadicea Subject: 'B' is my boyfriend not Boadicea NT Message:

z

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:00:15 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: The Cost of Amaroo Message:

I left DLM about 25 years ago because we were all becoming aware of the dishonesty that filtered down from on high, the goo's unquenchable thirst for money, the way the goo would black ball his closest devotees if they angered him, and the fact that 'knowledge' was no more of a spiritual practice than praying the rosary or chanting Hare Krishna. We all gave our time, our hard work, our money, sacrificed our family obligations, careers, reputations, in order to spread the goo's word, not the mahatmas, but his. I remember how he had us propagating knowledge on the streets of Delhi. I saw him dance on stage in his little krishna outfit. Anyway, for the past two days I've done more reading and writing about the goo and those poor unhappy people that follow him than have for the past 25 years, and I feel nauseous. It's the same feeling I had before I left and never looked back. I admire the strength and endurance of those of you who confront the lies of EV, or whatever they call themselves these days. Personally I think the little fat man ought to call it quits and leave everyone alone already. Revisiting his atrocities over the past two days is like visiting an alcoholic and abusive friend after 25 years and finding them even more pathetic, bitter and decrepit than when you saw them last. It's sad and horrifying. sorry to sound so negative, but this visit to the world of the goo is overwhelmingly repugnant. I can't believe people still finance his little empire.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:42:21 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: housemother Subject: and another thing Message:

I'm in shock I guess, I thought all this goo crap ended sometime after I left....I just found the site where they sale goo glasses and watches and pens that have a quote from the Bhagavad Gita 'Even in your darkest hour I will never abandon you' YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!! Doesn't that imply that he still leads them to believe he's divine!?! I can't connect to the EPO site. Does it go down sometimes?

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:12:17 (EST) From: Boadicea Email: None To: housemother Subject: Re: Hi Housemother Ji! Message:

Welcome, I am also newly exiting in Oz. I cannot connect to EPO either at the moment so i figure there must be a tech difficulty. I also am experiencing roller coaster emotions as I absorb the well of information, unplugged after all these years. This info has dovetailed with my own direct observations and i now am recognising the 'Cognotive Dissonance' that i have endured and perpetuated for the past 28 years. Sadly the pieces are falling into place and i have come to see that the person i sacrificed/devoted my life to, has been laughing at my gullibility. Or worse, doesn't even know I exist. I have read all your posts to date and am empowered with the way you have been so quick to move through your fears. I am still grieving, though the anger is slowly surfacing. So many generous souls have offered their support to me here. I poured over the 'Archives' which gave me a solid 'History' that i had somehow missed whilst serving him around the world in his residences and ashrams. 1st hand accounts are hard to dismiss and i don't want to dismiss anything any more. The Truth can stand up to any amount of scrutiny and light, and i am sick of the culture of secrecy/confidentiality. Again welcome and take good care of yourself. You are not alone. Boudicca

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:44:08 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Joe Subject: but the koolaid is free! (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 22:00:06 (EST) From: Elan Vital Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Correction Message:

At Amaroo, a donation of $800(US) is required in order to be allowed to sleep in a tent, and $1100(US) to sleep in a tent near bathrooms you share with fewer than 500 other people. Koolaid, which is required and must be purchased in advance from Daya's Restaurant, is $80(US) per glass, but it is of the finest quality and you have the choice of five different flavors, in one of which the Speaker has washed his feet, and possibily other, undescribed, parts of his divine, golden, perfectly proportioned body. To be allowed to know what flavor that is, requires an additional donation of $500 (US).

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 22:09:11 (EST) From: How much for koolaid... Email: None To: Elan Vital Subject: stirred with the Lord's swizzle stick? NT Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:28:07 (EST) From: gErRy Email: None To: All Subject: The LoRd is here !!! Message:

'Never has there been a timewhen the Lord himself did not reincarnate for the sake of the People' (Or something like that.) Now Move over RAwRAt !!! NEW DELHI (UPI) - Thousands of people across India are flocking to Hindu temples to see a Muslim baby -- born with what appears to be a tail -- who is said to resemble the monkey-faced god Hanuman. The 11-month-old boy with a 4-inch tail has been named Bajrangbali, another name for Hanuman. Iqbal Qureshi, the child's maternal grandfather, who lives in Kharar town just outside Chandigarh in northern Punjab state, is taking Bajrangbali from temple to temple across various Indian cities where people offer money to pay their obeisance. Qureshi showed journalists nine spots on the baby's body that he said were like Hanuman's and said his grandson was the Hindu deity's reincarnation. Women and children have been offering money and bowing before the baby to pay their respect. Hindus believe in miracles and reincarnation and Hanuman is among the most popular of Hinduism's more than 1,000 gods and goddesses. Copyright © 2002 United Press International. All rights reserved.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 20:00:42 (EST) From: Tim G Email: timgitti@indigo.ie To: gErRy Subject: Re: No end to SUPERSTITION Message:

Is there no end to it...the desire to worship. The desire, of course, is a nice plump dollop of avoidance. Don't we all find that comfortable at times! Welcome Housemother, good to have your contribution.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 16:48:05 (EST) From: [Blank] Email: None To: gErRy Subject: The LoRd is here !!! Message:

One lucky bugger that will not die of starvation. See if you can convince an insurance agent to get his tail insured and get yourself some royalty.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:05:51 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: gErRy Subject: JEEZUS mothaf....... Message:

And now our 'wise' eastern mystical folks want to hang an albatross around the neck of some poor kid that possesses a birth-defect! As if it wasn't bad enough to be born with a tail (and the likely painful surgeries to follow), now he has to live with the 'fact' that he's a god! GAWD I DISDAIN RELIGION! (yeah, I said 'disdain' instead of 'hate' so we wouldn't be accused to 'hating' anything)

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:54:02 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: gErRy Subject: Re: The LoRd is here !!! Message:

The poor child has a malformed coccyx, maybe indicating a tumor on the spinal cord. Bhole Shri!

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:03:29 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: All Subject: front row seats! Message:

Thanks for the numbers. I imagine that once you finally manipulate your way to the front row, it would be harder to acknowledge the little man behind the curtain. It's like the Patti Hearst syndrome for premies, I think, your very existence seems contingent on your belief in your captor and you attribute your survival to their benevolence. Thanks Joe for those nice words. I'm still shy about this, but anonymity seems to be ok. I've never done a forum of any kind before. I'm warming up to it! Hey, what does 'nt' mean?

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:13:12 (EST) From: Marshall Email: None To: housemother Subject: nt literally stands for no text (nt) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:36:52 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Re: nt literally stands for no text (nt) Message:

why do people write messages with no text? Sorry, I'm a neophyte.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:48:30 (EST) From: Marshall Email: None To: housemother Subject: What I have deduced Message:

I think the reason is that sometimes people have a one sentence response to a post, that fits in the subject area. Then so that people don't waste time, especially people with slow computers, clicking on to the hypertext, they add the nt. It's a cyber courtesy thing or something like that. By the way, welcome to this forum, you are doing fine as a neophyte, so keep it up housemother. PS> What's your story, if I may be so bold? Cheers, Marshall

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:48:54 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: Marshall Subject: Re: What I have deduced Message:

Hi Marshall, I received K in Houston in 1971, moved to Denver, did the Race Street scene, went to India on the Jumbo Jets, came back to Colorado, then back to Houston where I moved, pre-Millenium, into the ashram there. Went to COLL in 74 or 75,(very liberating after the horribly oppressive Houston Ashram), moved back to Denver in 76. The big hoo-haa of the time was whether Bob Mishler was leaving DLM, and all sorts of political yammering. After witnessing the tyrannical 'housefather' Booth, getting his nightly blow jobs in the Houston Ashram from a desparate 'sister' and watching his star rise in DLM, then being sent to COLL as a disciplinary action for not being a 'good' premie, and finally moving back to Denver and hearing all the 'who's a good premie and who's a bad premie' bs, I realized that the organization was only as (un)healthy as its leader. Also, I met some really good people in DLM and the contrast between them and the honchos of the organization made me realize I liked the people for who they were, not for what they aspired to be by practicing K. It became apparent that K had a deleterious effect on the good people while reinforcing the ego-strutting of the power hungry. Then it was 'mirage-miragy-I'm getting outta here' for me. That's the nutshell version, in any case. Thanks for asking.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 16:26:18 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: housemother Subject: Poor Booth Dyess/COLL Message:

With the possible exception of David Smith, and of course Jagdeo and Maharaji himself, Booth Dyess has possibily gotten the most negative publicity on these pages over the years. From what I have heard, the man deserves it. I think we had heard from others about his escapades in oral sex in the Houston satsang hall. I also remember COLL, especially the final year of its existence, as being the best period of my cult-life. I think it was partly because it was this self-sufficient place in the middle of nowhere, and the rest of the Mission, especially the Denver honchos and Maharaji himself considered it an uninspiring backwater, it not being either Denver or Malibu, and left it blissfully alone. I had some good times at COLL, some of them associated with housemother herself, and a few other good friends. But, I have to say, on balance, that even COLL was largely a big waste, I'm afraid, with lots of effort expended on serving a charlatan guru and lots of repressed human expression and wasted talents. Plus, like most of the rest of DLM/DV the place wasn't very supportive of people who couldn't play the part, or who had personal, human needs that the cult did not want to expend energy addressing. That was the downside. My roomate who was put into a mental instituion and tried to castrate himself in the bathroom because he feared breaking his ashram celibacy vows is one of the more extreme examples.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 17:12:38 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: Joe Subject: Booth and Bob/COLL Message:

Hi Joe, You gave me the courage to join in this forum, thanks. After I did, however, I surfed around and read about the lawsuits. Yikes! Is it true the Goo now claims he never called himself Lord of the Universe? What? He was the incarnation of GOD, giving the knowledge they don't teach in college. Why would he tell us to surrender to his lotus feet if he didn't have super powers? Hey, I was at Montrose, in India, London and all over the US and Canada pranaming to the dude, I remember very clearly what he said. I still have some newspapers and magazines of him dressed in his Krishna suit and aligning himself with Jesus and Buddha. And they no longer use borragons (sp?). How do they nap? My memories of COLL are mostly good, partly because of the relief of being away from the Houston Ashram, which I thinked created the most rigid and judgmental environment in reaction to the Millenium debacle.And COLL is where I ultimately detached myself from the Goo. There were so many wonderful, talented, funny people there. I think I do remember Bob, was he theatrical? I get a lot people mixed up from those days. COLL was not without its problems, that's for sure. But it was possible to live a relatively free life and, for me, that provided the opportunity to start thinking critically about what I saw around me.I realized I didn't love the Goo. I loved the people who were living there with me (such as you, Joe). The Goo was like a television idol that I fantasized about, a combination superhero and rock star. Life seemed terribly unjust and maybe he could make it better. He said he could and lots of cool people seemed to agree. But it didn't get better, not in the way he said and the way the rules dictated. As a matter of fact, I discovered that the farther away I got from him and his followers, the happier I became. I think in my memory I've condensed my memories of COLL to the place where I began my recovery from the delusion. I had meditated before I learned the Goo's techniques and I meditated after I left (not using his techniques) so that wasn't a problem for me. Hey, do they still press their eyeballs and call it divine light?

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:30:50 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: housemother Subject: Revisionism and Saving the World Message:

Yes, the revisionism is rampant in our former cult. But what is most disturbing is that among his other unsavory qualities, Prem Pal Singh Rawat seems to have a terrible problem with telling the truth. The man is an unmitigated liar. Before it was hastily removed from the cult website, there used to be a clip of him saying, with a staight face, that he never claimed to be God, which is nothing but a blatant lie. They also said that the ashrams were for the purpose of saving us all from "drug culture," also a lie. Down below, I described how the goo did a 'training' last year in Atlanta, in which he says that all the 'concepts' of the 70s came from the Mahatmas, and from the premies who were just wild in how they talked about this stuff, apparently just making up stuff about who Maharaji was and he had nothing to do with it, but is forced to deal with the difficult consequences. Never does he take one iota of responsbility on himself, despite his habit of dancing half naked on stages while wearing Krishna crowns, and repeatedly saying he was 'greater than God.' No, he has absolutely not problem lying, and that seems to have no bearing on the trust some premies continue to have in everything he says. Yes, eyeball pressing is still practiced, although they claim less pressing is now involved, but the goo no longer calls it 'light technique' now, it's called, so creatively, 'technique number one.' This is true. One of the reasons EPO is such an irritation to the goo is that it reprints his actual statements from the past, which he now claims he never made. At some point in the 80s, he asked that all those embarrassing and incriminating materials be destroyed, but I guess most people disobeyed that agya, because there are reams of it all over the world overflowing in shoe boxes and closets of both prems and ex-prems. Your description of wanting to help the troubled world, and Maharaji seeming to be a way to do it, and because other cool people seemed to be following him is right on to my motivation in the cult as well. I really bought into the 'bring peace to the world' spiel Maharaji was saying. But that all went out the window by about 1978, and he never mentioned it again. After that, it seemed all the energy went into all the "stuff" Maharaji wanted, and it never seemed to end. He always wanted more and he never had enough, despite his supposed perfect happiness coming from within. That, and endless "festivals" which were nothing more than marathons of guru-worship. [You recall that one in the Florida swamp in which the goo was carted around in a flowered carriage, while premies pranamed in the dirt -- you know, that kind of thing.] That pretty much describes my last 6-7 years in the cult.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:59:40 (EST) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: housemother Subject: Hi Housemother Message:

So, were you a housemother? How about some stories of the joys and tribulations of that thankless task. You never tasted food while in the kitchen, did you?!!! What about writing a journey? You too, Marshall. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:23:22 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Hi Housemother Message:

Oh yeah, I was a housemother. Let me put it this way, I joined NOW while still in the ashram because the sexism and humiliation of being a housemother finally made feminism make sense to me. One memory is of packing lunches for the Houston Ashram. It took hours during its hay-day, and the disparity between who got what was shocking even then. The ashram had a clearly delineated class structure, not based on who brought in the most money, I'm sure dear Babs did that, but who was the biggest brown-noser. I was told to give them special things, like fritos (talk about luxury) and avocados on their sandwiches. The grunts got pb and j's. I remember one xmas when gifts were given to certain ashram residents by the ashram elite, and while some people got real gifts, bubble bath and sweaters, I was given a package of sandwich bags, and others got nothing. I have a hard time remembering much from Houston....wonder why....

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:45:24 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: housemother Subject: Sandwich bags? Message:

I hope you told whomever gave them to you where and how to stuff them. My ashram lunches were pbj and an apple with more pb. The housemothers in Columbus ashram were wonderful. I am still in touch with both of them. Aime and Naomi -- what a pair! I remember when we finally got some tofu and also some lentil based dishes -- ah, protein at last. Aime and Na were both very talented seamstresses and made some nice dresses for the ashram sisters. Did you know Bob Garrett at COLL? Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 15:05:33 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Sandwich bags? Message:

Hi Marianne, I don't remember a Bob Garrett, but again, I haven't delved into these memories in detail for sometime. Joe, do we remember Bob Garrett? My ashram 'sisters' and co-housemothers were wonderful women too. We had fun together, in spite of the caveat not to. Janis Terrapelli (sp?) was a co-housemom with me for period of time. She was great fun. I remember after one grocery shopping trip that took all day coming home and putting away the food together and something struck us as funny and we ended up on the floor of the kitchen in hysterical laughter for half an hour. It was a great release! Babs is a dear friend still, though I don't think she was housemother. She was a laundry drudge until her money-making abilities were discovered. Paula Hull might have been for a while. She was very stern with herself. I remember vacuuming for hours, and we were always preparing the place for Divine visitations, the Goo or his mom, but they never came. We had lots of visiting Mahatmas, for whom I would cook and iron their dhotis by the yard (a great privilege), and often visiting higher ups, Ira somebody and other PAMS (that means people close to the Goo I believe). Oh the person who gave me the sandwich bags was some guy we called Klu or Clue. He was a chubby little power monger. It certainly wouldn't have been safe to tell him to stuff his bags.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 16:30:08 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: housemother Subject: Bob Garrett Message:

Bob was actually my roommate briefly at COLL. Nice-looking, rather clean-cut guy as I recall. You would probably remember him if you saw him. Marianne, didn't you say he went on to become one of Maharaji's pilots? Did I hear that from you?

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 17:47:39 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Bob Garrett Message:

Yep, I heard Bob became one of M's pilots, but I was never sure if it was a rumor or truth. Anyone know? Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:59:34 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: All Subject: Something smells foul Message:

Below I asked about Maharaji's specific vocabulary when he goes into his tirades, as I never had the 'opportunity' to witness one of these tantrums, if I had, I might have been out a long time ago. No one, to my recollection has been specific, therefore, that's hidden information from the general pwk population, and ex'es as well. In the Kit/Michael Nouri video, Maharaji curses and Nouri had to preface that with "We have a chance to see Maharaji in a way we may never have before" (paraphrasing but accurate). Lo and behold, along comes Deputy Dog, posts a riot inciting essay, and 35 ex'es respond. So, that tells me, someone out there doesn't want Maharaji's hissy fits exposed in detail.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 15:23:20 (EST) From: Chuck S. Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Re: M's vocabulary... Message:

I don't have any stories to tell myself about M's tantrums, but I have read here, posts by various people, some shocking descriptions from people who experienced them firsthand. Mostly from people who were in the ashrams, or PAMS. Drunken tirades at Kissimee, chewing people out at DECCA, and I found the revelations about what happened at the San Ysidro Conference (described by Michael Dettmers and others) to be very reavealing. Certainly not the carefully edited stage and screen persona we all thought we knew.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:04:24 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: dont forget the restaurant... Message:

scenes of him and marilyn drunk off their asses with the kids at malibu dining establishments, where they got into loud, disruptive marital arguments in front of all the patrons, and MJ left seething mad and took the kids with him and drove drunk, with them in the car, back up the switchback mountain roads up to the house. god how i would love to hear a secret tape of that.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 17:55:58 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Chuck S. Subject: What about M's 'Fuck you!' video? Message:

Apparently, M once got a bunch of instructors, or instructors-in-training, or something like that, to do a brief group video, each giving the finger in unison to the camera and saying 'Fuck you!' The video was prepared for and sent to someone M was angry with at the time. Sorry I'm short on details. One or two people have confirmed this bizarre and disturbing story over time. I just can't recall who or when. Anyone?

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 05:05:59 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: Jim Subject: it was to m donner Message:

for leaving. michael? would you step forward again and refresh our references? tell the story again?

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:23:59 (EST) From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: It was Jethro Message:

He was told the story by one of the instructors in the training, Malaysia if I remember correctly.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:14:43 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Vicki Subject: Naw ........ Message:

Below I asked about Maharaji's specific vocabulary when he goes into his tirades, as I never had the 'opportunity' to witness one of these tantrums, if I had, I might have been out a long time ago. No one, to my recollection has been specific, therefore, that's hidden information from the general pwk population, and ex'es as well. In the Kit/Michael Nouri video, Maharaji curses and Nouri had to preface that with "We have a chance to see Maharaji in a way we may never have before" (paraphrasing but accurate). Lo and behold, along comes Deputy Dog, posts a riot inciting essay, and 35 ex'es respond. So, that tells me, someone out there doesn't want Maharaji's hissy fits exposed in detail. --- It's just Dog being Dog as he has for years. I know Dog, Vicki. I know who he really is and, believe me, there's no chance in hell that he's part of anything bigger like that.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 09:22:02 (EST) From: ExP Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com To: All Subject: Disconnect Message:

It saddens me really. I was just browsing M’s new flash website and digesting the various ‘Hallmark’ comments. Nice comments being relayed (charity is within, enjoy the freedom blah blah). These are the teachings of the perfect one. I just wonder why followers of M on the one hand either feel that they are not allowed to engage with ‘premies that have become lost’ or more worryingly feel that the need to engage in very ruthless mind-f**k games with former lovers of M. If the ‘experience’ is really for real and there is a wish to have others enjoy the same, surely for goodness there should be a proper and well-meaning attempt to bring back ‘lost premies’. The experience of true love would dictate this endeavour. Very sad indeed.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 15:23:03 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: ExP Subject: ExP: Are you new here? Message:

If so, welcome! If you've been around for a while and I've missed your posts, well you're still welcome! If you are new, do you want to tell us a little about yourself, such as which country you're from/in? Any details you feel comfortable with. John Brauns from Leeds but living in Latvia

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:47:24 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: ExP Subject: Re: Disconnect Message:

I wondered that myself many times. There seems to be a line; people are either not interested, potential aspirants, aspirants, pwks or ex'es. To stay in the center and remain a pwk requires a belief system that walls out reality. It's like a party, you're either in or you're out. A country club, you're either in or you're out. A gated community, you're either in and know the security code or you're out. There is such disbelief when someone leaves that the pwk denial mode kicks in with rationals like 'they must never have been that devoted' and 'didn't experience knowledge'. Especially if pwk's don't know what the behind the scenes M is all about. Their myth must stay intact and not be disturbed, especially if they believe he is the lord. Even if they don't, they have to buy into his Perfect Masterness, to stay there. There's a strong need to be 'inlove' or at least 'in awe' of Maharaji and constantly talk about him, which creates a follie a deux (sp), thereby reinforcing the fake reality even further. When a pwk no longer can do that, there's just no point anymore for a pwk. It takes an understanding of not talking about Maharaji to even remain friends. There is also a lot of misconception, I feel, that when a person questions Maharaji and doesn't buy into it anymore, everything just stops on a dime. Only those that have been through the process understand how intricate and long that process of extrication is. It's amazing really, the empire he created with no capital investment whatsoever. Just him, his techniques and claims of divinity.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:52:11 (EST) From: Steve Mueller Email: mistyqm@mn.mediaone.net To: Vicki Subject: Re: Disconnect Message:

"To stay in the center and remain a pwk requires a belief system that walls out reality. It's like a party, you're either in or you're out. A country club, you're either in or you're out. A gated community, you're either in and know the security code or you're out." --- I only recently exed but, in my opinion, this is EXACTLY why active premies who have learned about M's outrageous crap (and they are finding out rapidly nowadays - word of EPO is spreading like wildfire) choose to ignore it and continue to perpetuate the fantasy that they are following 'today's Jesus'. The feeling I had when I participated in 'participation meetings' or attended video events up until before I exed on Dec 9 was very much like I was a member of a club, of a fellowship, even of a church. They have come to depend upon each other for emotional and social support. It meets their social needs. What they are engaged in is so far out there (as far as society is concerned) that they can't talk about M and K with anyone else and so they need to cling to each other, to reinforce each other's experience. With more and more of us jumping ship every day, they need to cling ever more tightly to those who remain more than ever before. I spoke with or communicated in letters and emails with three active premies recently and in each case, the emotional depth they had to go to defend what they were doing had them nearly breaking into tears. That made me realize that those who remain after learning of EPO really have serious, deep-seated emotional problems that almost certainly go back to abuse they suffered in childhood. All three seemed to have very low self esteem in my opinion. Unless and until they manage to grow enough of a sense of self worth and true self love that opens their eyes and allows them to see for themselves that M is abusing them emotionally, psychologically, and financially, they will continue to follow him around. Kind of reminds me of the Hitler Youth that died defending their lost cause fuhrer. Sad. Very sad. But, sometimes that's what happens. Some people just choose to strangle themselves slowly. They just don't love themselves enough to take better care of themselves. Happens all the time, and not just to premies. Yes, M, I do have gratitude, but not exactly in the way you have in mind. Thanks, Vicki.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 01:56:35 (EST) From: Anandaji Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Name calling isn't cool Message:

I just have to say that as a recent exe, bleary-eyed and exhausted from trying to keep apace with this forum, I am growing weary of some of the self-righteous name calling and judging that is directed toward people who still are involved. Basically, what you are calling people, you were calling me just a few weeks ago. If you think about it, it resembles how we all were at one time when we were new in the 'cult' and felt that we were so incredibly enlightened and that those on the 'outside,' like our parents, friends, spouses, etc., were lost and stupid, ESPECIALLY those morons who rejected our sanctimonious bleatings. As far as evangelizing our new incredible form of enlightenment, perhaps it would be more effective if we would just lighten up a tad and leave some room for compassion. Some of my best friends are still active premies and I love them. At 57, I have come to some weird place in which name calling and arrogance seems so uncool and old-fashioned Go ahead and rip away. Anandaji

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 07:08:57 (EST) From: Mirror Email: mirror@universalmail.com To: Anandaji Subject: Wonderful post Anandaji Message:

Thank you Anandaji, that's one of the better posts on this forum I've read so far. True Enlightenment (though unfortunately that word has become so loaded it can hardly be used) includes all our experiences. As a premie and as an ex-premie. To embrace our own life and each others' lives as a totality of growth and awakening of consciousness, is liberating and healing. Excluding a part of our human existence is living in a split reality. To bridge the gap we need to make ourselves larger than our habitual dualistic thinking patterns, and embrace both sides of the river at once. Mirror

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:18:15 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Re: Disconnect Message:

Steve, '...They have come to depend upon each other for emotional and social support....' Man, you know what is so sad is the fact that 'I' would like most of those I met as a premie, anyway. You know what I mean? It doesn't take a cult to get that level of support, it takes a thing called 'friendship.' True, I probably wouldn't have met some of the really fine folks that I met as a premie, had I never been one, but had we met under other circumstances I think friendship would have arisen, just the same. I know it's been said before, even by me, that the single thing that hacks me off the most was that so many fine people were hijacked by 'his assholiness' and twisted into ghosts of themselves. Then it takes alot of time to untie all those damned knots to get yourself back to where you were in the first place...... a pretty nice person with good intentions and the will to act on them. Now Jim..... Jim's a different matter.... ONLY KIDDING JIM! :-] Seriously, even though I disagree with the politics of some I've had the pleasure to debate here, I can say with all honesty that I've liked (and still do) almost everyone I've met here. This, despite our superficial disagreements. On the really important stuff, I think we all agree that it's 'important,' even though our methods for dealing with it would likely differ. I think that is another term for 'diversity,' no?

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:54:37 (EST) From: Steve Mueller Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Re: Disconnect Message:

Yes, Jim, they are nice people. I'd even go so far as to say much nicer than the average person I encounter in the course of daily living. The thing is . . . that brainwashing that they're still suffering from that causes them to continue to push M on you. I just can't take that anymore! Puh-leeeeez!!!!, pewks, don't push your M trip on me!!! Just makes me want to throw up. It is so OBVIOUS what a scum bag he is and they know that I detest him and yet they STILL can't stop themselves from singing his gorys (whoops, I mean, (hate to say it, pewk, pewk) glories). The last time I talked to a premie, I asked her if she was alone, and she said (proudly at that) 'Oh, no, I have M with me.' Barf bag quick! I want to be here for them once they are ready to move on BUT they ARE going to have to move on and get past him if they want to talk with me. Later, Jim.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 18:00:47 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Steve Mueller Subject: Talk about 'disconnect' Message:

You guys are having a conversation with me and I wasn't invited! Nice to meet you, Steve. You just got out, huh? Funny, but so many new people are popping up now it's honestly hard to keep track, let alone to keep the Welcome Wagon supplied and available. But what happened anyway? Care to tell us? NAR' reference to me was just a veiled joke about some of the OT arguments we've had over time re politics (e.g. gun control). But what do you expect, eh, with a name like that?

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 20:30:08 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Jim Subject: A perfect example, Steve Message:

Steve, Jim gave a perfect example of 'important' stuff we disagree on: 'I' think gun-control is hitting your intended target with one shot... Jim thinks gun-control is taking guns away from people like me ,,,,, he he he he Right Jim? he he he he ;-) Seriously Steve, we (Jim and I) may disagree on alot of stuff, but we usually get along pretty well and I'm glad I met him (even if it was only on this forum and the telephone).

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 20:41:38 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Yes, exactly Message:

Of course whatever political beefs we ever had were nothing compared to what broke out here after 9/11. By the way, NAR (NRA?), I was thinking further about the gun control issue and it turns out I was right. :) (NOT an invitation to start that stuff up all over again!)

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:00:16 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'll bet it was Message:

a hoot, Jim. Jeez, I thought it turned out that I was right and you were left. Thar I go thinkin' agin.... :-) Actually, I was going to come onto the forum right before 9/11, but I didn't and afterwards, I didn't want to get into the free-for-all (that I assumed was happening) because I lost some very close, dear friends/comrades in the Pentagon attack. Needless to say, mourning and funerals were the order of the day, not arguments. Even though I now work for a company that had a major presence in the WTC, I didn't know anyone that we lost there. I personally know two people who escaped the WTC attack and are in fine health here in AZ (thank goodness). I don't think I could have lost anyone else and not gone stark-raving..... if you know what I mean. No, not in the mood for debates about that..... I told Nige that it's still a bit of an open sore for me. They were incredible people, the friends I lost.... I miss them much!

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 03:06:35 (EST) From: Hoc Tui Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Re: I'll bet it was Message:

Hey NAR: I thought I'd take some time out from spittin' on the third rail here and offer my belated condolences for the loss of your friends in the 9/11 attacks. There's not much press about the Pentagon attacks and I find myself occasionally wondering about what's going on there. I'm very sorry you lost some friends in that horror. HocTui ex-phlegmie

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:19:02 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: ExP Subject: True Message:

It is very sad but there was not any real true love associated with Maharaji to begin with. He certainly was never honest or sincere. And the 'experience' of knowldege is just a con. It is not true love, which, for a time I beleived. Yes, it is sad. Very. But what isn't so sad is that time and the world and us march on. It is so liberating and wonderful that we still have each other. The lie was atrocious! But we did survive. And now, with help from this forum, we can heal and help others exit and more importantly, learn from it. It's okay and I can think of much worse things. Take care and don't take it too seriously. Sincerely, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:13:25 (EST) From: ExP Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com To: Tonette Subject: Re: True Message:

Tonette said: But what isn't so sad is that time and the world and us march on. It is so liberating and wonderful that we still have each other. The lie was atrocious! But we did survive. And now, with help from this forum, we can heal and help others exit and more importantly, learn from it. Oh so true dear Tonette My comments were partly ironic and aimed at pwk’s. Being ex’ed I have found to be really liberating – at last I can now move forward and really enjoy my life. No longer do I have to internally live the lie. As Vicki says above “to stay in the center and remain a pwk requires a belief system that walls out reality” I can’t help feeling an enormous amount of love for pwk’s who I know really want to experience something true in their lives and indeed do experience that – but with the chains that surround them. After all I have been a pwk for close on 30 years and have many friends that remain ‘committed’ to M. I don’t regret the last 30 years (indeed have had a great time and learnt a lot) – just regret that there were so many blind alleys that I had to go down and retrieve myself from. Again as Vicki observes above “Their myth must stay intact and not be disturbed, especially if they believe he is the lord. Even if they don't, they have to buy into his Perfect Masterness, to stay there.” I came to K with a sincere wish to understand something important. I remember thinking at that time that perhaps I needed a Gooroo and thus slid into buying the package. “Take care and don't take it too seriously.” Thanks – I will and you do as well. No, I find all this quite amusing really. ExP

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 23:55:39 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: All Subject: how many premies are there now? Message:

I left DLM in 1976 after living in the ashram for several years. I was introduced to this site last year, but have never posted. I find it hard to believe people still follow the Goo. How many premies are there now? In the US? Anybody know?

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 18:14:02 (EST) From: fly on wall Email: None To: housemother Subject: Re: how many premies are there now? Message:

According to a close friend, still in the cult, but beginning to move away slowly, about 2 years ago, the US consisted of: 1800 premies-donate $1-500 per year 1800 premies-donate $500 per year and more I have also heard that those numbers were down to about 1200 in each category this last year. Also, about 220 received knowledge in North America in year 2000. Less than that, in 2001. A 'big donor' group of about 500 people worldwide networks to raise cash when the gooroo wants a new toy. Yorum Weiss is the head honcho, along with Steve Sardoni and others. Dave Mankoff occupies the 'David Smith in training' role and is allowed to present powerpoint presentations to dwindling masses in the dwindling halls around the country, explaining why their hard earned donations help poor premies in Africa and India get their video fixes... Also, the upper echelon of the 'elite 500',the 'jumbo donors' group consisted of about 50-100 people worldwide who, before 2001, used to caugh up $50,000/year or more. Now, the 'jumbos' have to spot the corpulent one at least $100,000 per year. This is a very select club, with secrecy at a premium. One time a premie film man filmed fatso talking at one of these shindigs, and when he panned the audience with his camera, most of the 'jumbos' shielded their faces with their dinner napkins so as to not be seen. Ahh, there's a screenplay in there somewhere....but who's gonna write it....shouldn't it be done?

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:42:26 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: housemother Subject: how many ex-premies?? Message:

Wow... based on the numbers I read, there is an incredible amount of exes out there. Are there any known numbers of active exes? I mean openly discussing the cult experience and actively participating in a healing process? anyone? Are there more active exes in the US than elsewhere? What's happening in Europe right now? anyone knows? I'm from Holland and our community was always very small. I'm not in contact with anyone but I guess there isn't much more left than the hard-core upper management and loyal church ladies... Mirror

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:14:57 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Mirror Subject: Re: how many ex-premiess??s?? Message:

I guess it's hard to define what an 'ex-premie' is. Anth's response reminded me that Elan Vital claimed 40,000 'members' at the time of the Millennium Festival in 1973, although fewer than 20,000 showed up for Millennium, and that was an international program and remember, the 'entire world was invited' to 'the most significant event in human history.' So by 1980, maybe 10,000 premies in USA, now maybe 4000 - 5000 who would go to an event. I don't know how many people in the USA received knowledge after 1980, but I'm certain it isn't very many. So, there must be 30,000 - 40,000 former premies in the USA alone. Probably the vast majority left many, many years ago and have largely forgotten the whole thing. But over the past 3-4 years, there must have been hundreds of ex-premies who have posted on EPO. Plus there are many times more lurkers than posters.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 08:45:19 (EST) From: I know Email: None To: housemother Subject: Detroit-usa Message:

Just a few, scattered, do not relate to each other, 10 premies who see maharaji BUT ONCE IN A WHILE. ONE LOONIER THAN THE OTHER. Unhealthy beings. silvia

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 08:35:47 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: housemother Subject: One too many IMO. nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 08:45:51 (EST) From: silvia Email: None To: Tonette Subject: juajuajuahahahahah NT Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 05:09:27 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: housemother Subject: UK Numbers. Message:

Hi Housemother, Estimates for the UK. People who were initiated into the cult since 1970- 40,000 Most people who showed up at a cult meeting in the 70s heyday- 10,000 (International audience) 6-7000 (British Audience). How many people show up nowadays- 2-3000 and falling fast. Soon everyone will be a co-ordinator and be able to sit on the front row. Anth the statistician.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 06:30:16 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: AJW Subject: France numbers Message:

Estimated number of people initiated since 1970: 10,000 According to an official EV document dated April 1999: 760 Premies in France. No comments needed.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:25:24 (EST) From: Vicki Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: France numbers Message:

Ahh, those 'official' EV numbers.....part of my community service was compiling local stats. The looney toon way we HAD to compute them made absolutely no sense whatsover. I quit doing them, along with many others, because it was nothing short of maddening. After reading EPO I undestood what was up; the formula used inflated the numbers. And this formula IMO came straight from Maharaji. I spoke, via computer, to the gentleman who's national big time service it was to turn them in to him, via Elan Vital. He was at his wit's end and frustrated with the way the numbers were being calculated. Then when satellite dishes hit and the video numbers fell, he was scrambling like mad to figure out how many home watchers there were, since the US numbers fell to an all time low. Someone was not pleased....

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:22:02 (EST) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Vicki Subject: More on French numbers Message:

These are the REAL figures : 760 active premies on the actual mailing list in April 1999. That means that 10-20% were already 'out' at that time. Plus: I've been in charge of the mailing list (and programs registration) in the late 80s and early 90s. We had about 1,500 active premies in France at that time, and could expect 1,200-1,400 to show up for a program. That means a 50% loss in the last decade........

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 07:06:14 (EST) From: Ulf Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: skandinavian numbers. Message:

skandinavian = 200 active premies

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 00:27:47 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: housemother Subject: Hi Mom -- less all the time Message:

I get a big smile just seeing you here. I don't have much time just wanted to say hello, again. Hey, everybody, this housemom is one great person, so treat her well, or you will have to answer to me. :) Okay, the census. When I was a raving cult member, up to 15,000 people would show up for a big, national festival in Miami, like in the late 70s or early 80s. The last 'event' Maharaji did in Miami, 4000 people showed up. I think we can all do the math. I would say the premie population in the US is maybe 5000, with maybe 1000 turing over their hard earned cash to keep the goo in gold plumbing fixtures and the rest showing up to get their goo-fix every so often. But lots of people are pretty disgusted these days and departing the incredible shrinking cult. We have it on good authority that the 5000 number is reducing by the hour, even as we speak. Welcome.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 07:26:55 (EST) From: The Maharaji of Malibu's Email: None To: Joe Subject: existing herd... Message:

is greying all the time. It dwindles and ages as very few people remain susceptible to spiritual MLM or pyramid schemes these days. I'd guess that 90-95% of the hangers on received Knowledge(recently changed to Self-Knowledge)in the 70's. Very few children of the maharaji's cult received K. There is nothing to indicate that the cult will survive in the west. Most of the existing herd know the foolishness of telling friends and co-workers about their involvement which indicates embarrassment though of course they would deny that. Other than that, all is just great for the maharaji as he has gathered much wealth and is in a financial position to just slowly fade away when and if it becomes expedient. He may or may not believe his own bullshit.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 16:31:54 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: The Maharaji of Malibu's Subject: Yes, a middle-aged group (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 22:15:08 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Hey Cat Fucking Weasel you shithead Message:

I'm telling you boy, stop going after my pal Marianne or she WILL kick your ass. This woman has a lot of influential friends and has made quite a name for herself. Check out the link, numbnuts. She has more integrity and has done more good than you or your fucking cad gooroo could ever dream of. And you CAtweasel, are just a drunken, abusive woman hater. [ One of many news articles about Marianne's life work. ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 08:40:51 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: gerry Subject: What a great article. Message:

But I have to wonder is it okay with Mariannne that you posted it? And please help me with this one, why are you engaging Cat? I see he has responded to your thread and to be honest, I have no desire to read what Cat has written. He's one wierd person and so totally dishonest and evading. I remember that John MacGregor mentioned in one of his posts that Cat's purpose here is to hijack important threads and prevent communication. Why, exactly are you encouraging him? Just wondering, Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:44:25 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Thanks for posting the article, Gerry Message:

Yes, it's fine with me that the article is posted here. Some premies like to say that we do nothing but fight over Captain Rawat's carcass. Well, in fact, many of us do things in the 'real' world that contribute to meaningful social change and to better our communities. This is but one example. There are many more for many other exes. This case was particularly difficult because my client was trying to give up his appeals and get himself executed. Luckily the federal appellate court wouldn't allow it and threw out his death sentence so that he could not volunteer for execution ever again. Thanks for all the kind words, folks. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:17:16 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Why have you? Message:

Is this the backflip?Here I am writing a manifesto for you as requested down below and now your recommending the cold shoulder, the big push, the.. Talk sense Tonette. And I'm equally amused by what you call'encouraging' I'd hate to see a rejection slip if that's the welcome!

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:32:03 (EST) From: Tonette Email: netguest42@yahoo.com To: CW Subject: Listen, you mother fucker.......... Message:

I am not going to take up valuable forum space going back and forth with you. I asked you some very specific questions which you never gave me the worthy of a reply. And you did write some to Abi after some very , I'm trying to find the right word here, damaging dialogue. How could you do that? No, we will not do this here. Email me, if you're really interested in resolving this. If you can be honest. If you have the balls. BTY, have you been neutered? Listen, I am so angry with what you did. But I will give you the benefit of my doubt. But this has to be done privately. Email me. Until I hear from you, and I will respect confidentiality, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 20:39:12 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Been taking 'Angry' pills?? Message:

Are you a mother?Give me one good reason WHY I should submit myself to your wishes.You simply do not understand the Australian psyche. How any of you could percieve insult or cruelty in what was simply a flippant reply to a question constantly asked but never answered is beyond me. Tell me this Tonnette.What do you hope to achieve by speaking to me? (Other than a trace?)What do you think might change. Once I spoke to Gail. She doesn't see me the way you do. Strange eh? It's easy to demonise people Tonette.Easy to deal in absolutes. But it is not easy to face the truth and that is that a vaste number of people (who out of respect) remain silent ,totally disagree with what you present here. Why dont you just let all that fear, pain and angst go.There are no heroes and villians.Just people, living their lives. Like me. Like you.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 10:40:19 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Addendum.........better yet Message:

Call me. On the telephone. Let's have a real conversation. 301-229-8650 Or give me your number and I WILL call you. Tonette

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:48:39 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Re: Addendum.........better yet Message:

Tonette, just a common sense comment: never post your number on a public forum. Mirror

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:10:06 (EST) From: JohnT Email: None To: Mirror Subject: Re: Addendum.........better yet Message:

A great many people here use their real name, or make it known. Like me, for one! From there a phone number is but a call to Directory Enquiries (or whatever). No gumshoe would break a sweat to find the home address, phone number, place of work, resume, etc of a great many of us. So what? Phone numbers used to be published in big fat books called Telephone Diurectories which were made available to the public. Now they are published on little ickle CDs, also made available publicly. That sort of info is not really (imho) personal data. Now, the web sites one visits, and what one says in internet chat rooms (thinking one's handle confers anonymity) -- THAT is personal data. I'm not worried about Tonette (tho I would have great concern for anyone fool enough to mess with her!) But I notice you are running a very insecure operating system with a wide open browser. Before you worry too much about Tonette's level of suss, do you mind anyone looking through your browser history cache? What about the rest of the stuff you've got on your PC? Would you know if anyone did have a look through your disk? JohnT - never a premie

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:41:16 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: JohnT Subject: okay John, explain... Message:

Whadday mean: John T never a premie? Do you mean you were never a premie?

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 06:59:46 (EST) From: JHB Email: None To: Disculta Subject: His partner's a premie Message:

So Cat's claim about no experience of what he's talking about is pretty hollow, unless of course in Cat's world, normal real life experience has no value. John.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 23:56:21 (EST) From: CW Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Zip Message:

Yes he does. Pretty vocal for someone who has absolutely no idea of what is being spoken of. No experience whatsoever.Zip

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:29:55 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Re: Addendum.........better yet Message:

Your most welcome to take a thorough look through my disk anytime. That is if you're interested in a lot of dull writings? Does it help to give you my phone number? I'm sure a voice chat would be much more fun ;-) My real name is public, I just like my nickname better, as someone gave it to me long ago. Mirror

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 03:38:21 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: gerry Subject: Thanks, Gerry, for that link.... Message:

....and thanks to Marianne for fighting the most barbaric of all social institutions - killing by the state. That particular case is one of those that highlights the potential horror of executing an innocent person. I personally don't believe that he is entirely innocent but there is enough doubt to have made a thoughtful jury prefer to impose life imprisonment to the death sentence. The were told (via a typo) that the choice was death or life WITH parole but, if they had been told that the alternative to execution was really life without parole, they probably would have chosen the latter convinced that the accused was not entirely blameless in a wanton murder but knowing that there was reasonable doubt and that the sentence was at least reversible on a successful appeal - a lot more reversible than death. Great work Marianne. I wouldn't have known that you were behind that because you never talk about your work and certainly never even boast of your successes. And yes I will vote for your friends whom we talked about today in the upcoming elections for judges because I know that they are probably against the death penalty.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 03:04:53 (EST) From: Cat Fucking Weasel Email: None To: gerry Subject: You called Mr Hanky? Message:

So she is a skilled practioner of Criminal law specialising in Capital crimes. Nothing I didn't know. So how ,pray tell does that affect me, motormouth? I'm assuming that you assume I am some-one else. Bad and potentially problematical assumption. I do not fit the description you have made.Mind you neither does any-one you have nominated as me. It's good to have friends in influential places. I have quite a few myself Gerry.Right now I'm not the least bit interested in your activities. Go back to sleep. How long have you been suffering from Terret's syndrome.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 00:20:49 (EST) From: janet Email: None To: gerry Subject: give us the article, not the newspaper Message:

all i get is the website of the sacramento bee. no article, no clue. cut and paste the text of the article you want us to read.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 00:59:49 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: janet Subject: Here it is! Message:

Of course the html looks a little fancier on the web but here's the stuff: Sentence reversed by 9th Circuit Murder trial jurors got bad instructions, the judges decide. By Claire Cooper -- Bee Legal Affairs Writer Published 5:00 a.m. PST Friday, Dec. 7, 2001 SAN FRANCISCO -- A federal appeals court Thursday set a new obstacle for a death row inmate who was asking to be executed: It reversed his death sentence. For almost a year Bruce Wayne Morris, 44, of Elverta had beseeched the courts to let him drop his appeals. 'I feel I have been through enough for a crime I did not do,' he said as recently as six weeks ago in a letter to the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. Morris was convicted of killing Rickey Van Zandt in Sierra County after hitching a ride with him in 1985. He admitted committing the crime at first but later said he did so to cover up for two female companions. A few months ago, U.S. District Judge Edward J. Garcia in Sacramento scheduled a hearing that might have paved Morris' way to the execution chamber, saying he knew of no evidence that the man was mentally unfit to choose death. On Thursday, though, Morris got a reason to reconsider. The 9th Circuit, which had temporarily stayed Garcia's hearing, ordered a new sentencing trial. The death sentence was invalid, said the three-judge panel, because the San Joaquin County jury that recommended it had been misled about its options. A misprinted jury instruction said the choices were death or life 'with' -- rather than 'without' -- parole. Until Thursday, all of the courts that reviewed the problem had called the error harmless. Defense lawyer Marianne D. Bachers reached Morris at San Quentin and gave him the news. 'He's thrilled,' she said. 'He told me he would hug the stuffing out of me if he could see me today. He knows the death penalty is off the table. He's changed his mind (about wanting it.)' However, Supervising Deputy Attorney General Ward A. Campbell criticized the court's decision, saying it failed to deal with Morris' desires and provided no guidance to the lower courts for dealing with similar situations. It is not uncommon for death row inmates to ask to be put to death. In recent years two in California have halted their appeals and gone to the death chamber. 'I think Mr. Morris' expression of discontent has to do with what he believes to be a recycling of hearings and trials with no real prospect that he's ever going to get off death row, and he's not real happy with continuing that,' said Campbell, who said he's never talked to Morris. What happens next is uncertain. Campbell has two weeks to ask the 9th Circuit to reconsider. If the decision stands, Garcia still must rule on some constitutional arguments attacking Morris' conviction -- not just the death sentence. A hearing has been set for October 2002. If Morris were to win it, prosecutors would have to convince a new jury that he was the killer. The 9th Circuit said the future proceedings must include a new penalty trial 'at a minimum.' Yet the court rejected some arguments against the conviction and called the evidence against Morris 'unusually strong.' Van Zandt picked up Morris, his girlfriend, Avette Barrett, and her sister, Allison Eckstrom, as they hitchhiked from Sacramento to Lake Tahoe. After Van Zandt's death, the three drove around in his van. They picked up a hitchhiker in Nebraska. Morris told the man he killed the victim to steal the van. The hitchhiker phoned police. Morris' jeans were spattered with blood when he was arrested. He told police he hit Van Zandt on the head 12 to 14 times with a rock the size of a softball. He absolved Barrett and Eckstrom of responsibility and, from jail, he wrote to Barrett: 'I've killed once for you, and if I have to I'll do it again ... and I don't need a rock to do it either.' The women made plea agreements under which they promised, among other things, to testify truthfully at Morris' trial. In exchange, Eckstrom received immunity. Charges against Barrett, except for vehicle theft, were dropped. At the trial, though, Morris said he returned from fishing to find Van Zandt unconscious in the van. He said Barrett told him the victim tried to rape her, and she hit him. Eckstrom later struck Van Zandt with a stick, killing him, Morris testified. Three defense witnesses, who had met Barrett in jail, testified she implied Morris was accepting responsibility out of love for her. The jury was deadlocked when it asked the trial judge, San Joaquin Superior Court Judge William Giffen, what would happen 'if we cannot agree 100 percent.' But instead of saying the instruction was wrong, Giffen said it was 'self-explanatory.' The suggestion, wrote Circuit Judge Susan Graber of Portland, was that if any holdout juror 'did not join the majority of the other jurors, then (Morris) would be eligible for parole. ' That suggestion is, of course, incorrect, and its coercive potential is obvious.' --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 22:53:30 (EST) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: gerry Subject: Indeed, there is LIFE after the cult Message:

Marianne as well as many others have gone on to do something with their lives in spite of the threats from a drunken Lord of the Universe about breaking into a million pieces. And many of us did want to do something to help others and that's why we got involved with Maharaji. Instead it turned out to be a sick aggrandizement of a charlatan who has enriched himself beyond any reasonable belief.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 19:48:33 (EST) From: Joe Email: kevjo@mindspring.com To: All Subject: Deepak Raj Bhandari -- Jagdeo Situation Message:

As I believe Kelly and others have told us this gentleman Deepak Raj Bhandari is Maharaji's main man in India, I guess head of DUO or DLM or EV or whatever it is called in India. I am also informed that he is also responsible for a lot of history in India, going back to the early 70s and has always been a confidant of Maharaji. Two points: First I note that Sat Pal fairly recently, and I think for he first time this explicitly is claiming the HE, Sat Pal, inherited Shri Han's mission. I think before he was more vague about that. What does Deepak think? But more to the point, Deepak should know the most about where Jagdeo is, what has been done over the years to prevent his access to children in India and elsewhere, and indeed if he has been living a luxurious life in DUO housing for many years and up until very recently as we have heard, despite many reports over the years that Jagdeo is a pedophile. I wonder if Abi, Susan or any of Jagdeo's victims would like to contact him. I have recently been given Deepak's email address. If anyone would like it, for the purpose of making inquiries of an important nature, because we wouldn't want to waste this importan man's time, please let me know. I am informed that Deepak is a nice guy, and I'm sure he would like to talk to anyone who has questions about the Jagdeo situation.

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 00:17:49 (EST) From: Abi Email: None To: Joe Subject: email please Message:

I would very much like to ask him a few questions. I pleaded with Valerio Pascotto several times to let me talk to him at Amaroo but nothing happened. Could you send me his email address. Mine is abray@murdoch.edu.au thanks abi

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 04:33:00 (EST) From: Ex Premie Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com To: Joe Subject: Satpal's claims Message:

Here is Satpal's current claim that he inherited Hans Ji's mission. Previously the manavdharam.org website was very vague about this point. 'His father passed away in 19th July 1966, bequeathing his mission and unfinished work to his eldest son. When the time came, young Maharaj Ji took command with his characteristic zeal and efficiency, dedicating himself to fulfilling his father's dreams. He has never deviated from the ideals and path taught by Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, no matter what the cost. His integrity and clarity of vision, his noble character, self-discipline and patient effort have earned him the respect of all sections of society.' These words (and others on the manavdharam.org website) makes me feel that I should change my handle to Satpal Premie. Certainly manavdharam seems to be doing far more for the poor, dispossesed and true seekers! much love to the sisters and brothers :-) [ Satpal's current claim ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 22:13:32 (EST) From: Joe Email: None To: Ex Premie Subject: Re: Satpal's claims Message:

I note that neither Satpal, nor Prem Pal ever mention the existence of the other. How mature.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 17:41:32 (EST) From: housemother Email: None To: Ex Premie Subject: Re: Satpal's claims Message:

The whole family seems to be master SPIN DOCTORS! He has not aged well.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:44:01 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: Ex Premie Subject: He's got an army! Message:

Check out the 'sewa' section and see BBJ inspecting his uniformed troops! Does the brother who gets his own army win the sibling rivalry contest? Who cares, I ask myself? But sometimes this forum stuff CRACKS ME UP!

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:06:15 (EST) From: ExP Email: ex_premie@yahoo.com To: Disculta Subject: Re: He's got an army! Message:

Hi Disculta Yeah I saw the army! Did think of of posting the link but thought it may be a distraction. Oh heck lets put it up anyway ..... So I guess that makes Raji Ji an absolute failure in his endeavours with World Peace Corps (where are you Raji Ji? John Lindus??) Just love the color co-ordination of Satpal's army uniform!! Did they hire a Paris fashion designer? all the best ExP [ Satpal's army ... ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 21:12:40 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: ExP Subject: Inspection Results Message:

Satpal: Unsatisfactory. Although generally neat in appearance, his feet are at slightly more than 45 degree angle, his gig-line is misaligned to the left and he is in need of a haircut. Additionally, he forgot to tuck in his blouse, he's not wearing the proscribed uniform of the day (or his troops are really messed-up) and it's 'stomach in, CHEST out' Satpal! Tsk, tsk, tsk.... It's supposed to be leadership by example. Troops: What can I say. Overall, not too shabby. I'll give them a 'SAT' for this inspection. There are, however, two notable exceptions. (1) First rank, third man from your left (short stocky guy) needs to shave the mustache and get rid of the cover. He looks too much like Saddam Hussain. Stomach in and CHEST out, soldier! (2) Second rank, fourth from the left (or furthest to the right as you are looking at the pix), EVER HEARD OF A SHOE SHINE KIT?????? I didn't think so....... fifty laps around the grinder boyo! (3) I could go on, but what the heck, I'm the inspector and I can do anything I damned well please! ATTEN-HUT! Dismissed!

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:50:27 (EST) From: Marianne Email: None To: ExP Subject: LOOK, LOOK at the Satpal Army photos Message:

ExP, this is a hilarious link. Satpal seems to have his troops fully synchronized. Captain Rawat has a lot of catching up to do. Thanks for the chortle. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 08:08:21 (EST) From: livia dowte Email: None To: Ex Premie Subject: Re: Satpal's claims Message:

Hmmm, there seems to be some confusion and revisionism going on here too. I've just read the Satpal (Bal Bhagwan Ji) stuff. For those who weren't around in the early 70's, Satpal was a frequent visitor to the west, and took the role of a subordinate to Maharaji at that time. He often appeared at meetings in London and I saw him many times. Even asked him a question once. He always stressed devotion to his younger brother, who he constantly described as the perfect master of the time. In all the stuff I've just read, there is no mention of any of this, and yet he must have been a disciple of his brother for 8 years!!! (The family bust-up occurred in 1974 when Maharaji got married.) In the description of Prem Nagar there is no mention of the fact that it was once used for the worship of his brother, and that jumbo jets full of thousands of devotees of his brother went there to stay for weeks at a time. This family seem to be the masters of revisionism for sure!!!

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:31:00 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: All Subject: Hey I'm Famous! Message:

Well, not exactly. I was querying google.com search engine with my own name to see if there were any more CACa like attacks out there in cyberspace and came across this gem: AN EXPERIENCE WITH ARJUNA NICK ARDAGH I don't know much about spirituality but non-dualism appeals to me. Can anyone explain what happened to me in this experience: I went to hear a guy by the name of Arjuna Nick speak. It was kinda weird, with him bowing to a picture (ed- jeez, i wonder why I had an adversion to this) and then having everyone meditate. I don't know how to meditate so I just sat there quietly, feeling uncomfortable. Arjuna said very few words, and engaged anyone who so desired, to ask the question, 'who are you?' Most people seemed to shy away, but since I had driven for two hours on that nutso I-5 highway to attend this thing, I was game. So we did the inquiry together and I came to the conclusion of 'nothing.' Big whoop, I thought. I was grumbling to my wife as we left. She said, 'but you were giggling and acting as goofy as they were, what are you complaining about?' Actually, I was feeling uptight and nervy so I crossed the street to a little market and bought a beer. When I looked into the eyes of the clerk there, a huge wave of feeling hit me. I stayed 'high' for a couple of days, was very extroverted and felt like I loved everybody. Then it wore off and I was back to my bastard self. What was that all about? Yours in ignorance, Gerry Lyng This is on the non duality salon or whatever it's called. Hey, maybe this means I'm enlightened!!! LOL [ guru gerry? ]

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:54:13 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: gerry Subject: Lucky bastard.... Message:

....only one beer,I need a lot more than that to maintain a two day high. I once ordered a special interest book from one of the few bookshops in the country that goes in for my line of work, & got into total confusion over the billing. Turned out I've got a doppleganger who does the same job, & who already had an account with them. I never investigated further: spookily yours : PatD

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 19:01:45 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: PatD Subject: My two day drunk Message:

I forgot to mention the name of the beer: REDHOOK ALE!!! I had a doppleganger once, not that I could ever convince the judge...

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:36:25 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: gerry Subject: You might be... Message:

enlightened, Gerry, but only if you don't care if you are enlightened. Otherwise, all you are looking for is the ultimate high, and thus, will never attain it...... he he he :-) Am I full of 'it,' or what? :-)

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:45:36 (EST) From: gerry Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: No more full of it than I am... Message:

It was a pretty great high I have to admit. Much better than anything I experienced with that fat greasy little shit from Malibu. Nice to see you around, Red. (Jeez, I almost said Mike, te he he)

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 17:49:22 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: All Subject: It seems to me... Message:

It seems to me that the 'desire' to know this 'god' guy is nothing more than the ultimate in hedonism. I mean, what if knowing god/the ultimate/whatever-it-is meant you would be miserable forever, would you want to be at 'his feet' forever? Probably not! But no, it's supposed to 'feel' really, really, really good, right? So let's pretend that we are being totally selfless in our search and then let's try to find the ultimate HIGH. Totally selfish...... not that selfish is all that bad (under the right circumstances, it's essential), but lying to oneself about the REAL motive (e.g. to feel realy, really, really good) is really, really, really self-destructive (under the guise of self-realization). I don't believe there is any such thing as selfless. Even the act of trying to be selfless is selfish. Why do you give to the poor? Because it 'feels good,' maybe? If it felt aweful to give to others, how much 'selfless' service would there be? I give to others because it feels GOOD! I give to others (and causes) because it feels right! I give because I'm selfish...... there, at least I admit it! :-)

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:05:30 (EST) From: Mirror Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Re: It seems to me... Message:

It seems to me that the 'desire' to know this 'god' guy is nothing more than the ultimate in hedonism. I mean, what if knowing god/the ultimate/whatever-it-is meant you would be miserable forever, would you want to be at 'his feet' forever? Probably not! But no, it's supposed to 'feel' really, really, really good, right? So let's pretend that we are being totally selfless in our search and then let's try to find the ultimate HIGH. Totally selfish...... not that selfish is all that bad (under the right circumstances, it's essential), but lying to oneself about the REAL motive (e.g. to feel realy, really, really good) is really, really, really self-destructive (under the guise of self-realization). --- 'Give up your search for salvation, it is selfish.' ~ St. Benedict Even though many wise men have preceeded us, and left us their wisdom in books and traditions, we still need our own discovery to validate that wisdom. Mirror

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:14:00 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Mirror Subject: You mean????? Message:

MAN, mirror you have made my day! :-) It really IS ok for me to not give a rats pattootie about enlightenment and gawd or religion or anything that 'saves' me! In fact, according to St. Benedict (who is just as believable as any other) I'm better off if I don't care about this gawd-guy. Woohoo, I'm saved! :-) You know, just this conversation could really warp the mind..... :-) BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA (in the 'old' days, didn't we refer to them as mindf_cks? Yeah, I thought you might remember those days )

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Date: Sun, Jan 13, 2002 at 06:59:01 (EST) From: Mirror Email: mirror@universalmail.com To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Re: You mean????? Message:

MAN, mirror you have made my day! :-) errr... still a WOMAN since I last looked ;) It really IS ok for me to not give a rats pattootie about enlightenment and gawd or religion or anything that 'saves' me! In fact, according to St. Benedict (who is just as believable as any other) I'm better off if I don't care about this gawd-guy. Woohoo, I'm saved! :-) THANK GOD... you finally got it. Took some years of following a phoney guru to figure out that you were already completely OK huh? You know, just this conversation could really warp the mind..... :-) BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA (in the 'old' days, didn't we refer to them as mindf_cks? Yeah, I thought you might remember those days ) Leaping in laughs and chuckles with you. Mind? What mind? Ever seen one? There's a whole bunch of thoughts, but even the idea that there is a mind is a thought. BTW... this is what leela was all about you know. Pretending that you were sailing some sort of ocean of samsara while you were the ocean itself all the time. Touching both shores, enjoying making waves, and never even getting your feet wet :) Mirror

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 09:10:33 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: I see what you are saying Message:

The supposedly self-less act of giving is ultimately selfish. Yep, okay, but why dwell on it? Reminds me of a truth I heard from initiators and Maharaji about, if you give a gift and truly give it, one would not care about what was done with the gift. Once a gift is given, the giver should not care about it's apprecitation or fate. Tell that to the people who gave their trust fund money or those that gave the donation of their time and money. If a devotee finds out that his donation paid for let's say, a new designer dress for Marolyn he might be okay with that. Hell, it's all in the family. Conversly, if a devotee found out that his money paid for Maharaji's mistress's house he might begin to wonder. Of course this gift spin was wovened so that us dupes, I mean premies, would not really question all of Maharaji's excesses. And I remember the selfish spin too! What bullshit. Yes, lots of dichotomies in this world. We are what we are. True selflessness? Doesn't exist. You got that right. But we do need each other as human beings. And I am always looking for love. But dwelling on innate faults of being human well, what a waste of time. Don't take this wrong, I am not insulting you in anyway, shape or form. I am here on this forum because it's kinda fun, definately interesting, and I have the selfish desire to try and help tip Maharaji's hand. Maybe I'm here also out of anger because I was so horribly lied to. Yes, all selfish reasons, but I do have respect for the human condition and I would never exploit it for my own rewards, unlike what Maharaji does. Sincerely, Tonette

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:23:31 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Re: I see what you are saying Message:

Tonette, You 'may' have misread my motivation behind this post. I'm, most definitely, an EX-premie. I've got nothing against the 'selfish' desire to feel good. In fact, I wholly approve of it. What I take exception with is all the premies (and any other supposedly spiritual movement) calling themselves 'selfless.' The very act of trying to become 'selfless,' is in fact the ultimate in 'selfishness.' They are looking for the ultimate high.... that's all and nothing more. I just wish they'd admit that.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 22:49:52 (EST) From: Guru Mariachi Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Aha! There your are!! Message:

Well, my little dung-beetle, I see that you are back! What is all this talk about giving to the poor and feeling good? Has not your Guru Marichi told you over and over again that the only way you will feel good is if you send your money to your beloved Guru Mariachi? Do you want to feel good? Send your money to Guru Mariachi. Do you want to feel bad? Send your money to Guru Mariachi. One other thing; what is all this talk about living masters? What is so good about living masters? That Maharaji fellow and his PWEBSTs talk and talk about the living master and how that is better than a non-living master, but what about that Maharaji fellow's master? Dead as a door knob!! Dead as that broken radio in the corner of your office. Slipped on a bar of soap and off to the land of the dead perfect masters!!! If dead master is good enough for that Maharaji fellow, dead master should be good enough for you, right?? 'Wait a darn minute, Guru Mariachi!' you well may be saying, 'Are you not a living master?' I am a Master because I have a Master of Arts in bidi-rolling and marketing from University of Industrial Tobacco Arts of Calcutta, and I am living because now that you have read my post I am living in your imagination, but otherwise I am not existing, which makes me as good as ol' Sri Hans, the German Perfect Master! So, straighten up, my dung-beetle, and get back on the right track, sending your money to me, your Guru Mariachi and not gaining vicarious pleasure giving your money to those shiftless street people!!!

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 12:56:47 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Guru Mariachi Subject: The Grateful Living Message:

Oh my guru mariachi.... you are the infinite ocean of piss..... I mean bliss. It's been eons since we've traded missives that I oh,so longed for. Gazing upon your carefully staged, mascara ridden picture does my heart good. Your holy visage (golden from the carefully prepared floor lamps) there for all to see. My heart aches.... my brain is happy, but my heart aches to be in your presents... I mean presence. Yes, I prefer a dead purrrfect massa. Dead, alive... yin, yang.... in, out (oh, maybe that's a bit too racey) ... up, down (oops I did it again... sorry Brittany) ... money, no money... It's all the same to me. I'm catatonic, remember? You've given me a purrfect piece... I mean peace within inside myself (no, maybe it really is 'piece,' since I'm doing nothing more than mental masturbation) . Ohhhhh, there I go again, talking about 'myself.' After all, I'm just an insignificant dung-beetle on the bottom of your shoes. NO... NO.... don't scrape me off with a popsicle stick... nooooooooooooooo ....

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 17:59:51 (EST) From: Will Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Right you are Message:

Right on, Red Any premie who is the least bit serious about 'self-realization' would have left Rawat long ago. I mean really now. At the last series of events, it was bluntly forbidden to ask any questions about enlightenment. What kind of shit is that? The PAMs are mostly wealthy hedonists. At least Satpal's premies still act like premies are supposed to: fight your desires and renounce stuff so you can be pure enough to see God. Rawat's premies just want to appreciate life. Well, duh! I could have told them that. What do you need a master for if you don't want to cross the infinite ocean of maya?

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:28:30 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Will Subject: Hey Will Message:

The ONLY way I can think of to make 'enlightenment' a selfless event is if you really don't care if you ever get enlightened or not. In other words, you meditate and such without giving a hoot what the results are. Of course, that is probably not possible because, in the very back of your mind, you are still looking for the 'high,' after your self-generated self-lessness takes hold, of course. I don't give a sh_t whether I ever see god or not, am enlightened or not or anything. I REALLY don't give a hoot whether M is the lotu or not....... ALRIGHT!!!!! I'm MUST be on my way..... Yeaaaaaa!!!!!...... oh heck, I blew it.... There I go, lookin' fer that darned high again. :-)

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 13:29:51 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: All Subject: Reality, reality, reality, reality. Message:

IMO there are four realities. There is your reality, there is my reality, there is the social reality (also known as agreement reality), and there is the capital 'R' Reality, i.e. the fundamental nature of the universe. All realities change except the fundamental Reality. Meditation gets us in touch with capital R Reality. IMO happiness and success are the direct result of having a personality in harmony with the fundamental harmony of the universe. That's pretty much it! We are taught early in life to deny our own experience and to embrace outside opinions. But whatever you are struggling with right now is the key to Reality. Don't resist your experience, embrace it. What you resist is what you get. Whatever it is, own it, experience it out. Experience the TRUTH through your experience. Be aware of your on-going story. That's as simple as I can make it. Thanks for letting me pontificate. I'll be hitting the road for a while. Take care.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:11:14 (EST) From: JohnT Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: No! Reality, reality, reality. Message:

There's just the three realities, I think, Dog. 1) The real world, as you say. This is the world that science has been so successful in explicating and explaining. 2) Then there is the world of intersubjective agreement. This is the world of maya where money has its reality, and other social conventions like religion (including Maharajism) exist. It's a Tinkerbell world where things exist only because we conspire with each other in maintaining the pretence. A reputation (like money) is what people think it is. 3) Then there is the private, subjective, internal world of direct perception, of qualia. So there is my experience (my reality); intersubjective reality (our shared culture); and the real world in which it all happens. It is your experience that meditation gives you a nice buzz; a cultural reality that Rawat is a fraud and a conman; and objectively real that his existence has nothing to do with the effects of meditation on its practitioners, contrary to his claims. I hope that clarifies matters! JohnT - never a premie

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:29:26 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: JohnT Subject: 'Reality' can't be subjective Message:

John, Even when something's only real by agreement, e.g. the value of money, the shared agreement must be actual. The thing's only real to the extent that it actually exists. Hence, there's really one reality and phrases like 'my reality' don't literally mean anything.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:17:57 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Jim Subject: The real Real World Message:

Take seven teens and early twenty somethings out of the little worlds they have grown up in. Put them together as room-mates in a big city and see what happens. I've been hooked on this show ever since it was set in San Francisco. (The gay boy from that series eventually tragically died of AIDS.) These kids are about the same age as many of our kids and growing up in the same world, facing similar problems. Some of them are jerks but most of them are so lovable that I completely fall in love with them. (Danny the gay boy from the New Orleans show posted his nude pic on the net when still an exhibitionistic teen and has to live that down.) On Tuesday a new show begins. This time set in Chicago. If anyone has any abstract ideas about reality, I highly recommend this show. Yes, it is commercial and heavily edited but the kids often forget that they are on TV and their raw sincerity and sweetness is totaly endearing. Oops! Blew my cover. Now you know I watch MTV. Shit! [ MTV's Real World ]

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:55:00 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Jim Subject: Might I add.... Message:

Jim, as we've said before: PERCEPTION and INTERPRETATION have nothing, absolutely nothing to do with REALITY! REALITY doesn't change, just our perception/interpretation ot it. If we find that we've made an error in our assessment (or we develop the tools to better view/understand REALITY) then it's our perception/interpretation that changes, NOT REALITY. AND YES, for those that don't know me, I'm talking about the only REALITY there is.... the PHYSICAL, measurable, scientifically provable kind of REALITY, as opposed to the 'I just KNOW it's true' non-reality world of make-believe. An small example of the above: If we only used our senses to probe the universe, we would never have found the many wonders that radio-astronomy (an extension of our senses) has located. In fact, we would never have discovered the 'proof' or fingerprint of the big bang. Likely, we would have (and did) 'misinterpret' REALITY. Instead, we came up with a scientifically sound (and provable) way to correct a shortcoming with our senses (the inability to 'see' radio waves) and corrected our myopic perception of REALITY (e.g. the universe). Gawd, the machinations, twists and turns our minds have been put through by this eastern mysticism nonsense. It takes alot of individual effort to remove those layers-upon-layers of that 'ancient' crap. GOOD ONYA JIM!

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 07:59:32 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Oh grow up already! Message:

Dear Dog, I don't want to fling insults but you did post a thread so you must be expecting and requesting replys. Four Realities? Talk about adolescent thinking in it's convolution and confusion. What I gathered from your post is you have devised this little philosphy in order to justify all the time you waste with your thumbs in your ears, your tongue stuck up your nose, your fingers on your eyes and your concentration on your respiration. That doesn't change a very real reality in that Maharaji has lied to you. It doesn't change the reality that Maharaji is pretending to be something he is not, i.e., a teacher who is concerned with your well being. Do you actually think that Maharaji cares one ioita about you? And what exactly has Maharaji shown you about the fundamental nature of the universe? Come on now, get a grip! Granted, Maharji could teach you alot about how to dupe people, in that regard, He is a Master. But what Maharji has done to you is appalling. He's arrested your developement in your ability to think and your maturity. Maharaji is mostly an egocentric ignorant fool. I guess by following his lead you are determined to be that too! Oh well. I would encourage you to take just half of the time you spend in meditation, getting in touch with the 'R reality' and read a few good books. And if you want to know the universal truth why don't you take a kid to a baseball game. BTY, this may come as a surprise because you are taught differently by your Master, I am not struggling with anything. Good luck Deputy Dog, and since you like the name of this cartoon character perhaps that is what your identity is. That's okay, we all try and do the best with the life that we have been dealed. You seem mostly lovable and don't appear to be malicious, unlike some premies who post here. I wish you would consider what I have written. Aren't you tired of 'the ostrich with his head in the sand' routine? Sincerely, Tonette

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 19:33:36 (EST) From: PatD Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Reality, reality, reality, reality. Message:

How can you have 4 realities? There is only the one, & how you make sense of it is your business. If meditation does it for you then go for it. Give us a break on the subtext that GMJ is God Incarnate. As you well know, we've all had lots of experience with that point of view, & have come to our various conclusions. Safe Journey : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 16:37:38 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Reality, reality, reality, reality. Message:

DD, As stated by others below, there is only one reality.... REALITY. I'll give you an example of reality (and I didn't even have to poke my eyes to discover it) Hit me hard in the arm and it hurts. There are some very good reasons for this, all having to do with the need for the organism to survive. When I look out of my eyes, while in a forest, I see many trees. That's real and fully natural. THAT is what my eyes were INTENDED to see. I don't have to warp my retina to see 'reality.' I have the senses required to 'experience' those portions of reality that are required for my survival. If I don't have all of the senses required to perceive a new 'threat' or 'need' then 'I' develop the tools necessary to extent my senses. These 'tools' don't WARP the senses, they amplify/extend them. As yet, there is no scientific evidence that pushing on your eyeballs does either. In fact, the only REAL scientific evidence concerning eyeball-pushing states that it can cause your retina to tear/detach. In other words, WARP the retina. You are NOT seeing 'pure energy' or anything like that. You are seeing the result of rods and cones being compressed. Following your breath is nothing more than following your breath. Wow.... an epiphany.... air goes in and air goes out and I can actually 'feel' it.... duhhhh, you have nerves in your esophagus and in your chest. What are they for? Maybe so you can determine if you are breathing something that will hazard your survival? Like really hot air, maybe? Like fumes, maybe? OF COURSE, you can 'feel' your chest (inside and out). This technique is probably better because you aren't doing anything to those nerves other than paying attention to them. But, again, there is no scientific evidence, whatsoever, that you are doing anything other than 'feeling' what those nerves were intended to transmit. Music/technique three/whatever.... is easy. Ever heard of tinitus? It's DAMAGE to the hearing apparatus. Simple as that. Your ears allow you to HEAR reality. Again and again.... for your SURVIVAL. The fact that we can choose to listen to 'pleasing' combinations of sounds for our personal entertainment is beside the point. Which does bring up another point..... I may not LIKE the sounds you make, but the sounds ARE REAL, measurable, scientifically provable events. How I PERCEIVE that reality is, to some degree, my choice, but it IS REAL. The fact that you INTERPRET rod/cone mashing as 'god' doesn't make it so. The fact that you INTERPRET those sounds as 'the music of the spheres' doesn't make it anything more than the death of nerves that it is (scientifically provable). The fact that you INTERPRET air going and coming as 'the fight of hansa' doesn't make it anything more than air (fumes, whatever). Now, who is it that is warping the perception of reality, reality itself and the meaning of same? The most WONDEROUS part of this whole thing is the fact that we, as an organism, WANT to know everything there is to know about REALITY. Even to the point of 'making stuff up' when REALITY about REALITY is too much to handle, or too mundane for us..... there just HAS to be 'more than this.' According to whom? Actually, there is MORE. Become a scientist (pick your specialty) and DISCOVER IT! But, be prepared to PROVE your discovery..... :-)

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 21:51:10 (EST) From: Nige Email: nige@theusual... To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Grrrreat post, Redneck...! Message:

Well said, indeed, sir (or madam ;)) Liked this bit: 'The fact that you INTERPRET rod/cone mashing as 'god' doesn't make it so.' Just as a guru claiming to speak to one's 'heart' doesn't make it so. Nor does even getting people to call you Massah make it so. The only thing that is 'so' is 'what is so'. Absolutely! (And - seriously - go work it all out properly, Dep-Dawg, for your own well-being) Email coming forthwith..

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:33:06 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Nige Subject: Speaking to your heart Message:

Nigel, thanks. I have a question: How does one 'speak to the heart?' I mean, I've yelled at muscle tissue before (when it's sore), but it doesn't seem to do much good (unless I add ben-gay to the mix). Speaking to a muscle just doesn't seem to make alot of sense to me..... Actually, if I did know the language of the heart, I think it would go something like this: lub dub? lubbity lubbity dubby dub. he he he he :-)

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:51:59 (EST) From: Jerry Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: How much reading have you done? Message:

It's obvious that you're an inquisitive individual who thinks about things, but it seems to me that you need to broaden your horizens beyond Maharajibabble. Why don't you take a walk over to the nearest bookstore and browse the cognitive science section to see if anything interests you? Might do you a world of good. Here's some titles you might come across that I think you'd probably enjoy mulling over. The Feeling of What Happens The Evolution of Consciousness or this excellent primer: What Makes You Tick Why don't you give it a try? If you have to think, why not think about things in a context more interesting than the simplistic and uneducated manner that Maharaji would have you think? Do you think that's really going to get you closer to truth, or 'reality'?

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 23:19:21 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Re: How much reading have you done? Message:

Jerry, very well put. Hopefully DD will actually read them. Your last paragraph brings some obvious questions that has never been answered by ANY purrrfect gooroo holy massa lotu-type guys: Why do you have to be stupid to see god? Why are the ignorant the only ones invited to play? Why do you have to be completely oblivious of reality to experience the supreme? If god is all-powerful (or, if you prefer, K is absolute truth), why can't a 'thinking' being be an active participant? Why can't my questions be answered? How can something as nebulous and powerless as doubt get in the way of something/someone that is supposed to be omnipotent? yadda and yadda and yadda..... ad nauseum. I know these aren't the only, or even the best, questions, but they're a start..... add yours to the list :-)

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 03:50:27 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Re: How much reading have you done? Message:

Well, I read all your stuff, Nige, even if I don't always comment. This was so cute I think I'll keep it and plagiarise it: ''Why do you have to be stupid to see god? Why are the ignorant the only ones invited to play? Why do you have to be completely oblivious of reality to experience the supreme? If god is all-powerful (or, if you prefer, K is absolute truth), why can't a 'thinking' being be an active participant? Why can't my questions be answered? How can something as nebulous and powerless as doubt get in the way of something/someone that is supposed to be omnipotent?'' Amen and alleluiah. 30 years of the LOTU was enough god for me. If there is a god I think it's probably clever enough to have seen the light and retired to another universe and left us to get on with our own business either out of boredom and disinterest or tact and good manners. Or maybe it's trying to get a patent on a five dimensional universe.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 11:27:31 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: PatC Subject: I'm not Nige :-) Message:

Pat, I'm not Nigel, although I take the comparison as a real compliment. I like Nige's stuff, too! :-)

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 13:52:36 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: New-Age Redneck Subject: Bloody redneck crackers everywhere :C) Message:

Sorry NAR, I read and responded in the wee hours of the morning. I must say I was stunned to wake up and find that I made that mix up but yes I wouldn't mind being mistaken for Nige too. So, I will correctly attribute the passage (which I am stealing) to you. Many thanks.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 19:58:12 (EST) From: Nigel Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jerry Subject: A reviewer's quote... Message:

(The evolution of consciousness) Not for those who are a part of a belief system!, May 16, 1998 Reviewer: gdecker@ns.net from Sacramento, CA Cool....is the word for this book. Its better than a Zen book, or even Taoism! Right to the heart of what really is and isn't. If you want to know the truuth about what is real and what is not.. get this book. I dare you! >>>> Thanks for those links Jerry - there are a couple there I will have to read (though I am familiar with similar works). I wholeheartedly approved of the comment that it is Darwin, rather than Freud, who is the scientist of the mind. >>

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:38:51 (EST) From: PatC Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com To: Deputy Dog Subject: Before you leave, Dog Message:

In a thread below, where we were having a conversation, you ended by asking me: ''Do you see any interest in spirituality in your community?'' Yes, I do. It's San Francisco after all, the city of every sort of New Age religion. You also said that the Gen-Xers are materialistic and not interested in spirituality. That's a big generalization and deserves another generalization in response. :) They are very interested but have no patience for New Age platitudes and hippy fuzzy stuff or moldy old mystical eastern cliches. They want to hear something being spoken in the language of today without all the spritiual assumptions and they definitely don't like the idea of holy masters. I wish you well on your journey. You are welcome to email me anytime you want.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:54:46 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: PatC Subject: Thanks PatC - later Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 17:01:38 (EST) From: PatC Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: I don't want to convert you, Dog Message:

I may not agree with your spiritual explanation for K or your mystical eastern religious beliefs. You'll think your way through those on your own and eventually find your own explanations. I'm just hoping that you will be able to free yourself from rev Rawat. You defintely deserve a more honest, caring and moral ''friend'' than him. So good luck.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:19:41 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Reality, reality, reality, reality. Message:

Dog, You sound like a tape of Maharaji, who has a terrible grasp on language. That's probably because he quit school to take on the guru business, he doesn't make much sense. Even now that m's lived in an English speaking country for so long, he still gets it wrong, and all the time. Fact is, in order to follow maharaji, one has to accept his warped version of language in order to believe in 'Reality' as you described it.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:51:08 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Cynthia Message:

Capital R reality is not to be believed. It exists beyond language. It's what all those zen guys were talking about. Pictures of cake do not satisfy hunger.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 17:58:54 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Dog... Message:

Okay, I know where you're coming from. I've been there. Pictures of cake do not satisfy hunger, however, a picture of a cake is a Real picture of a cake. It's not meant to satisfy hunger, but to get you salivating to eat a real cake. Very much like a video of maharaji. It makes a premie want to be physically with him, if, in their belief system, he is the Lord of the Universe, God Incarnate. Likewise, a photo of maharaji, who is the object of premies' worship, cannot possible satisfy the desire for darshan, because he is not the lord of anything, (that's what he says, anyway), plus it's only a Real picture of maharaji. My major point is this: The perception of reality (capital 'R') is the essence of human experience, yet it changes as we grow, mature, learn, read, and understand ourselves as adults. For instance, I received knowledge from maharaji and I worshipped him as the true lord of the universe (all capitals). I even had experiences I couldn't explain until I realised that he is not the lord of the universe, which he originally claimed while I was an aspirant and then a premie. He has negated that claim and has referred to himself as a teacher or master. Maharaji is not a good teacher of anything, especially reality. I have come to realize that he is very weak in the area of teaching, doesn't speak well, and encourages his followers to NOT use their minds, which, Dog, is part of the reality of human living. Because I worshipped him as lord of the universe, my perception of all other things and people around me changed dramatically. My belief in Maharaji as LOTU changed, which is my Reality, I became clearer in my mind about what and who he is and isn't to me, hence, my reality changed again. What I realized about maharaji is that what he convinced about his teachings is that I, as a premie, could not live properly without him. My reality about that has proved to be true. I can live very well, and quite happily without maharaji. Yet, maharaji doesn't want premies to believe this, rather, he requires his followers to remove all doubt from their minds. This results in faulty reasoning and suppression of what vital human beings do: think, question, be curious, and doubt. That's forbidden in maharaji's world. It may not seem tangible, like touching a picture of a cake versus tasting an actual piece of nice chocolate cake because it is the perception of what is real that makes the difference. Even what you said about zen guys is illogical. Using the word 'zen' is subject to discussion because the word has as many meanings as there are people who try to understand it. So, while maharaji says he gives premies the direct route to reality, it is only in the context of ''maharaji's world'' in which that can take place. There is only one person who controls maharaji's world, and that's maharaji. He does it through convoluted use of language and repetition. He does it through inflicting guilt and obligation on premies and by doing that he controls your reality. Reality, as you describe it, is merely another concept. And concepts are completely forbidden in maharaji's world. In real living, humans have choices, and that's a good thing. Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:26:10 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Dentists and Heaven Message:

Mr Dog; since the great, vast majority of the world's population don't meditate and will never meditate, they're all out of touch with reality, in your book. You've failed to buy a copy of ''Stress relief'' from Sainsbury's supermarket (less than £2). It explains it all very well there. Meditation is for stress relief - nothing to do with getting in touch with reality. Everything is real. If you want to pick one part of it and say that it's more real than the rest, you are denying reality. Next time you go to the dentist and have a tooth out or a filling, tell the dentist you don't need any anaesthetic and try meditating and getting in touch with reality instead. See if it works. When you die and go to Heaven, do you expect to find everyone sitting meditating up there?

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 01:07:00 (EST) From: Disculta Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Dentists and Heaven Message:

Er, Dave, I tried this in 1972. I was in the ashram in Brighton and really excited about my identity as a 'meditator.' Went for some fillings and I told the dentist I didn't need anesthesia, because I would meditate. What a BIG mistake! Once he started I had to keep the whole thing up to save face. When he finished he asked me why I was breathing so loudly. The pain, man....!

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 02:49:06 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Disculta Subject: You brave girl Message:

You did what many premies pretended they'd done and lied about. You really did use the divine knowledge at the dentist and discarded all worldly help. For me, even with a local anaesthetic, fillings were Hell and my attempts to meditate through it were useless. No, the knowledge always proved totally ineffective at saving me from Dentist Hell.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:19:04 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: The Fundamental Reality. Message:

Hi Dog, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the so called, 'Fundamental Reality'. Do you believe you see it when you press your eyeballs? Do you believe you hear it when you stick your thumbs in your ears? Do you believe you feel it when you concentrate on your breathing? Do you believe it has a taste, not unsimilar to snot? Anth, just wondering.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:28:00 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: The Fundamental Reality. Message:

Hi Dog, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions about the so called, 'Fundamental Reality'. Do you believe you see it when you press your eyeballs? Do you believe you hear it when you stick your thumbs in your ears? Do you believe you feel it when you concentrate on your breathing? Do you believe it has a taste, not unsimilar to snot? Anth, just wondering. --- Yes.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:55:44 (EST) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Reality is a headache Message:

How come then, Mr Dog, whenever I have got into light meditation I have ended up with a terrible headache and nausea? If it was reality, that wouldn't happen would it? Unless of course, the ultimate reality is a headache.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:42:49 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: The Fundamental Reality. Message:

Thanks for that forthright, straightforward answer. OK, for $40,000, if you removed your belief from the experience, what would be left? I stopped believing. If I press my eyes, block my ears, follow my breath, or stick my tongue back, I still see, hear, feel and taste the same stuff as when I was a believer. But without the belief Dog, it ain't so hot. Anth, brighter than a thousand book matches.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:31:17 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: The Fundamental Reality. Message:

Anth, If you were banging away at Julia Roberts (I know you are married, this is just hypothetical), and you started to cum, would you need to believe you were cumming in order to have an enjoyable experience? In fact wouldn't thinking probably ruin the experience. The best fun we have is when we (i.e. the thinking part of us) is not there. That's true in sports, music, etc. Dep the Buddhist iconoclast who has had enough of B.S. (i.e. belief systems) P.S. May I call you Anth 'Two Sheds' Ginn?

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 04:45:11 (EST) From: AJW Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Trouble is Dog... Message:

Hiya Dog, The trouble is, when I'm poking myself in the eyes, I don't feel like I'm poking Julia Roberts. And what I see is not nearly as beautiful as what I see when I look out of the window. Same goes for when I stick my thumbs in my ears- I'd rather listen to Motown Greatest Hits Volume 1. Etc. So this experience isn't all it's cracked up to be. Either that or the Ultimate Reality is almost as disappointing as the Perfect Master. My wife has done more for world peace than the Captain. Anth two sheds.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 14:24:09 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: AJW Subject: Re: Trouble is Dog... Message:

Anth, ain't that the TRUTH. For the considerable time that I was a premie, I used to wonder why I could get 'higher' from listening to 'external' music as opposed to the internal variety, which I always heard because I have Tinitus (moderate). At the risk of sounding like a sexist, looking (or learing with impure thoughts, if you prefer) at my wife has ALWAYS been more satisfying than poking my eyes ever was (and yes, dear premie lurkers, I saw 'plenty' of light). And you are SO right, Anth, there is no high that is as great (IMHO) as being out in the forest, breathing fresh air and staring at the beauty that's more-than-evident in every direction.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:13:46 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Why don't you learn to speak english??? Message:

IMO there are four realities. There is your reality, there is my reality, there is the social reality (also known as agreement reality), and there is the capital 'R' Reality, i.e. the fundamental nature of the universe. None of this is true according to the english language. 'Reality' is a word with meaning. It's not something you can just hijack at pleasure. Yet, you do. Indeed, like all the other new agers who post her, you do it all the time. Why? Because you need to add some weight to your statements which, on their own, are vapid. 'Reality' is a powerful word, Dog. It means that which truly is. Nothing more. It does not and cannot mean something that's subjective as in 'your reality'. What you're actually talking about there, but are too weasly to admit, is 'your perception of reality'. That leaves 'reality' uncompromised and offers lots of room for what you're really trying to say, that people perceive reality in different ways, some being much more valid than others. Because you're a new ager you can't concede that. Not easily, anyway. Likewise 'my reality' or 'social reality'. These are just undeserving expropriations of a wonderful word. Too bad for you that you can't see that. All realities change except the fundamental Reality. Meditation gets us in touch with capital R Reality. As I've already said, there are no other realitites but the one to change. What you mean to say, of course, is that peoples' ideas about reality change. It is not the case that the world was once flat, as per everyone's beliefs, and that that 'reality' changed after Columbus, etc. Yet, if we followed your rubber words that's exactly what we'd say. Silly, isn't it? So what you're left saying is that meditation gets us in touch with reality. But that sentence, too, makes no sense. Reality is what actually is. It includes what's in my office filing cabinet. How does meditation help anyone get in touch with what's in my filing cabinet? It doesn't. The claim is wrong. IMO happiness and success are the direct result of having a personality in harmony with the fundamental harmony of the universe. This is more bubble thinking on your part and I pause to say how laughable you are to claim, as you do, that you're anything like an original thinker. 'Harmony of the universe'? Where'd you get that, Dog? Surely not from nature where animals eat their young and all sorts of neat things happen. Nor could it be from humanity where harmony is a quaint ideal and little more. No, you picked up a generic grab-bag of eastern mysticism and abandonded your natural ability to think well. Your fantasy of a personality 'harmonized with the universe' is meaningless. Talking about it is just your calm, new age way of throwing your arms up and shouting 'Alleleuah'. That's pretty much it! Oh, aren't we pleased with ourselves? We are taught early in life to deny our own experience and to embrace outside opinions. But whatever you are struggling with right now is the key to Reality. Don't resist your experience, embrace it. What you resist is what you get. Whatever it is, own it, experience it out. Experience the TRUTH through your experience. Be aware of your on-going story. You'd have to pay me to deconstruct that thicket of worthless and flawed new age cliches. The fact that your theme is one of individuality and independence is horribly ironic given that you don't seem to have an original thought in your body. That's as simple as I can make it. Thanks for letting me pontificate. I'll be hitting the road for a while. Take care. You're not the least bit welcome. The fact that you don't have the guts to post under your own name is the capper.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:30:05 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Why don't you learn to speak english? Message:

Why don't you learn to speak English? What? This question is coming from a lawyer?

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:15:04 (EST) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: About Attorneys, Dog... Message:

My personal experience working with lawyers for a number of years taught me that language is the essence of their work. Being able to write well, as Jim and Marianne both do, is paramount to being successful. It might be called 'legalise,' however; all the best, well trained, and experienced lawyers I've worked with have to have a superb grasp on the language. There's no getting around this one. My best professional and business writing was learned from good attorneys. And I not blowing smoke up anyone's ass here. b)

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:34:04 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: That's it? Message:

Great. I stand corrected. Languages get capitalized. I'll have to remember that. Now, what about the substance of what I was saying?

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:38:39 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: That's it? Message:

Jim, All conflict between people is a conflict of personal reality, although we all share the same essence (i.e. Reality, the fundamental nature of the universe). I know I'm just an extra in your soap-opera but that doesn't bother me. I'm not taking it personally.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 18:05:41 (EST) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: This is empty, worthless fluff Message:

Jim, All conflict between people is a conflict of personal reality, although we all share the same essence (i.e. Reality, the fundamental nature of the universe). I know I'm just an extra in your soap-opera but that doesn't bother me. I'm not taking it personally. --- Dog, You might as well be brain-damaged for all the sense you make.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 09:37:33 (EST) From: Sir David Spock Email: None To: Jim Subject: The nature of the Universe is chaos Message:

So we all share that chaos. That's logical, captain.

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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 09:25:08 (EST) From: Tonette Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim, he is brain damaged for now. Message:

I suppose there is hope for Dog but as long as he continues to engage in self autism via meditation and ignoring glaring facts you might as well be talking to a retard. I'm sorry to say Dog doesn't even realize that he is not making sense. Kinda reminds me of some 'satsangs' I heard in my time with the cult. He also is playing a game here on this forum, maybe he learned it from Cat. You did give it a good try though. Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 13:54:31 (EST) From: Will Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Clarifications please Message:

DD, That's not simple. That's vague. Questions: (1) What is Reality with a capital R? And how does a person know when he is 'in touch with it' as you put it? (2)Can you provide one example of what you mean by 'don't resist your experience, embrace it'? (3)Also, what do you mean by 'experience the TRUTH'? p.s. either say something understandable or don't say anything. If it's ineffable, then don't bother us with words. Pontification is only fun when it makes sense.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 14:26:53 (EST) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Will Subject: Re: Clarifications please Message:

(1) What is Reality with a capital R? And how does a person know when he is 'in touch with it' as you put it? Reality with a capital Ra has been known as the Toa, G-d, the buddha Nature, Holy Name, the Christ, the always so, the elan vital, the ground of being. (2) Can you provide one example of what you mean by 'don't resist your experience, embrace it'? If you are afriad and you resist your fear it will persist. But if you examine it, get in touch with it, feel it, it will disappear. It's also know as 'Let go and let G-d.' Therapists have discovered that when you confront your pains fears and upsets they cease to have power of you. (3) Also, what do you mean by 'experience the TRUTH'? I mean get in touch with reality with a capital R. Hope this makes sense.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:33:57 (EST) From: Will Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: DD, about those 'clarifications' Message:

DD, Surely you realize that all the ex-premies have done quite a bit of reading and listening and thinking about Truth and Reality. I wasn't asking you to list all the names that God goes by, (I already know that). I was asking what YOU mean when you say talk about experiencing it. And your example about not resisting your own experience was not really the kind of example I was hoping for. What you say is not really a specific example that you yourself experienced. What specific fear are you talking about, for example??? Your fear of spiders? Your fear of death? Your fear of a man in a mask who is walking behind you on a dark night? Can't you be specific and talk from your own experience? If you did, it might be a bit interesting to talk with you. I, myself, have had what can be called 'peak experiences,' where I have felt certain feelings that are hard to communicate about. I could say, for example, 'I felt a joy that seemed boundless and my own original nature.' Lots of people will be able to relate to that, even though admittedly it's a very subjective experience. But I don't take that experience and go around talking about God and how best to reach him. At any rate, may the Fa be with you!

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 15:29:10 (EST) From: New-Age Redneck Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: What's a 'toa' dog? Message:

I might add that you didn't even come close to answering the IMPORTANT part of the question, to wit: HOW do you KNOW when you are 'in touch' with 'it?' BTW, the answer cannot include 'you just know.' HOW.... is the question. Please be specific, generic answers are just that.... GENERAL. I'll give you an example: HOW do I know I'm touching a piece of sandpaper? It has a rough texture to the touch. It appears to be made out of a silicon or diamond dust compound (can be proven in the lab), it has a flexible backing, etc etc etc. Get it? I could be even more specific, but I think this is much better than.... 'I just KNOW.'

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