Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Jan 06, 2002 To: Jan 13, 2002 Page: 3 of: 5


Joe -:- Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:36:54 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Encore -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 10:27:12 (EST)
__ Kelly -:- Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 18:41:42 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- Re: Atlanta Training -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 11:56:25 (EST)
__ __ Pullaver -:- He's Got the Power -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 23:42:37 (EST)
__ michael donner -:- Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:58:39 (EST)
__ __ JS -:- You got it Donner!...nt -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 16:46:19 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- In a nutshell, Donner -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 13:57:51 (EST)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- bhakti yoga............ -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 07:43:13 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Excellent Michael -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:13:33 (EST)
__ wolfie -:- Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:29:07 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- The problem in a nutshell -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:36:10 (EST)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- without EPO ......... -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 07:28:32 (EST)
__ Sulla -:- I believe and I wish -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:50:48 (EST)
__ __ Disculta -:- To Sulla -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:02:16 (EST)
__ __ __ Sulla -:- You helped me -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 13:28:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Sulla, hablas espanol? -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 18:25:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: Si chica, lo hablo y tambien lo escribo. -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 10:50:11 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- This thread *** Best of Forum *** -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 03:10:40 (EST)
__ Francesca :~) -:- Deep hole! YESSS! -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:19:50 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Actual quote -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:32:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Re: Actual quote -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:37:14 (EST)
__ Disculta -:- North Bay Video Festival this Sunday -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:23:50 (EST)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Re: North Bay Video Festival this Sunday -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:38:47 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- I hope you guys have a strong stomach! -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 03:17:45 (EST)
__ Pullaver -:- Pathological Liar -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:17:46 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:53:09 (EST)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:43:44 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:39:55 (EST)
__ __ Chris -:- Tidbits on blind idolization... -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:48:16 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Re: Tidbits on blind idolization... -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:22:43 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- I wonder. -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 01:55:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Yes, I thought the same thing -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 18:16:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Great minds think alike, eh Deborah? nt -:- Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 09:54:56 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- ROFLMAO, Tonette. [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:15:45 (EST)
__ __ Deborah -:- Unbelievable! -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:38:11 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- if you and Jim want to see it... -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:10:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, thanks, Pat -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 20:59:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Will do, Jim. [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:16:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Zelda -:- Simultaneous Video E -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:54:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Disculta, I have to say... -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 22:32:46 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Yes, so strange -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:25:21 (EST)
__ __ __ bill -:- Re: Yes, so strange -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:48:12 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Rawat knows propagation is dead in west -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:44:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Rawat knows propagation is dead in west -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 17:52:19 (EST)
__ __ PatC -:- PS Kelly did a transcript of it -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:44:37 (EST)
__ __ __ bill -:- Transcript is in post just below. [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:32:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Pat W -:- Re: PS Kelly did a transcript of it -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:15:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Oy vey! Thanks Pat W. -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:25:18 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Wow, What a piece of work -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:36:54 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Makes a mockery of Roupell, no? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:13:57 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- True/Maharaji's Dilemma and the poor premies -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:29:15 (EST)
__ __ jonathan -:- Re: Makes a mockery of Roupell, no? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:28:37 (EST)

Joe -:- Passages -- The blonde mystery woman -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:02:48 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Correction -- Linda Pascotto -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:25:40 (EST)
__ Inside Edition -:- Can this be? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:41:46 (EST)
__ __ Sir Loin -:- I think you mean 'Inhuman Resources' [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 16:14:26 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Yep! (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:45:13 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Virgil Cuillo? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:33:40 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Re: Virgil Cuillo? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:49:04 (EST)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Virgil Cuillo? -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 08:39:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Virgil Cuillo?? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:57:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Virgil Cuillo? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:23:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Virgil Cuillo? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:40:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Virgil Cuillo?? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:22:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Virgil Cuillo? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:30:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Virgil Cuillo? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:44:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Call him, Joe... -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 22:17:19 (EST)
__ cq -:- Hey Joe - -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:31:48 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- Re: Hey Joe - sheesh, sorry 'bout that -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:38:41 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks cq -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:33:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- No probs - but here's an idea -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:44:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Great -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 13:04:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- You're right, Joe -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 11:48:28 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Hey Joe - sheesh, sorry 'bout that -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:45:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Cynthia (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 17:19:34 (EST)

Peg -:- I just looked up elan vital on Google -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 06:08:09 (EST)
__ Deputy Dog -:- For me happiness is a result -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:12:11 (EST)
__ __ Mirror -:- Re: For me happiness is a result -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 03:49:29 (EST)
__ __ janet -:- all true, all good-and i still -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 02:43:25 (EST)
__ __ jonathan -:- Re: For me happiness is a result -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 20:03:51 (EST)
__ __ Peg -:- hello Dog! -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:14:25 (EST)
__ __ Pullaver -:- Fence-Shitting -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:13:52 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- There's no talking with Dog -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 23:06:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Palaver, I'll make this real simple for ya! -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 22:56:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- Complete Lack of Integrity -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 00:43:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- Dedication & Service -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 08:23:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Dedication & Service -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 23:29:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- More revisionist crapola -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 01:19:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- another premie wanker -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 03:56:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Brilliant, Pullaver. [nt] -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:27:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You have no idea how true that is -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:57:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Well said Puallaver, Peg, Mirror -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:28:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- PatC - IMO if we are going to survive... -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:35:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pullaver -:- Show me -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:33:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Dog, most of us are connected to our higher power -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:31:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Dog, most of us are connected -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 18:01:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- One's true Self -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 19:41:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Atlanta Training video -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 23:02:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I thought you may have -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 04:47:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Leave evolution out of it, please -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:00:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I'll talk about evolution if I want! -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:14:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Dog food -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:11:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Dog food -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 23:41:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, Premie means lover......... -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 04:56:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Yes, Premie means lover... -:- Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 13:47:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, words and concepts -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:21:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- wow!! good and honest feedback -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:47:28 (EST)
__ church lady -:- well isn't that Special! -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 10:25:51 (EST)
__ __ Mirror -:- Re: well isn't that Special! -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:43:42 (EST)
__ Jerry -:- Happiness IS a result -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 10:21:48 (EST)
__ __ Peg -:- Jerry! -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:50:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Sorry, Peg -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 15:24:28 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- quack quack ... ooops -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 13:49:24 (EST)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Maharaji's happy little fucking world -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:19:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- My take on it? -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:59:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- My take on it -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:13:05 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- aha - here's the full quote - -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 13:52:58 (EST)

Pullaver -:- The Maharaji Monologues: Flip Flop & Fly -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 21:16:49 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- He doesn't have the decency -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 07:18:58 (EST)
__ __ Pullaver -:- Who's in charge? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 13:17:53 (EST)
__ __ __ cq -:- Who's in charge? this Forum and EPO apparently -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:03:17 (EST)

Contest: -:- Best plans for Amaroo sell-off: -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 20:56:12 (EST)
__ bill -:- Burial Plots? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:56:31 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Burial Plots? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 17:10:42 (EST)
__ Brian S -:- A cult awareness foundation [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:50:15 (EST)
__ jonathan -:- Re: Best plans for Amaroo sell-off: -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 12:08:35 (EST)
__ Vicki -:- Re: Best plans for Amaroo sell-off: -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 10:53:43 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Err, Vicki, don't you think... -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:26:24 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- Impoundement lot, rehab facility for pedophiles -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 04:24:21 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Impoundement lot, rehab facility for pedophiles -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:40:58 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Hey Cynthia, OT -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 02:16:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Tonette (OT) -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:46:05 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Leave those kangurus alone -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 10:34:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- We can not cure pedophiles -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 10:47:33 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- A Betty Ford clinic for alcohol and drug rehab [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 06:58:24 (EST)
__ janet -:- a premie homesite and cemetary? -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 23:36:09 (EST)
__ Inside Edition -:- Rabbit Sanctuary -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 22:09:06 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- LOL -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:23:06 (EST)
__ Pullaver -:- Mini-Golf & the Mini-me's -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 21:26:08 (EST)
__ Abi -:- give it to children -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 21:18:18 (EST)
__ __ Abi -:- M there in April -:- Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 21:20:42 (EST)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I wish I knew you a little better. -:- Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:10:25 (EST)
__ __ __ bill -:- why go? [nt] -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:57:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: why go? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 20:01:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: why go? -:- Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 22:28:02 (EST)


Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:36:54 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring
To: All
Subject: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It
Message:
Pat and Chuck gave me a copy of the Atlanta 'training video' in which Maharaji explains how to do propagation. It is truly amazing.

Rest assured, there is no chance propagation is going to happen. Maharaji is clearly out of it. It is about the most confused thing I have ever seen. Pat, sorry for ever doubting you, I can see why this would send you over the edge into ex-land.

I will comment more on this, but I really think everyone should see this video. Maharaji clearly does not have a clue. I mean, in his ranting 'satang' videos, it can be kind of hidden, but in these videos M is actually trying to make points, I mean actual, supposedly logical 'training' items. You really get to see just how incoherent, arrogant, and out of touch, he really is.

Maharaji says propagation is going into the toilet. Well, he doesn't actually say that, but he says that if something drastic doesn't happen, I guess it's over. He does this hand motion 'going-down-the-drain' and he is quite pissed about that, and, really, it's all the premies' fault you know, the premies and the Mahatmas. They really fucked things up, and he is still trying to clean it up.

You get the idea of how lame this 'training' is from the first 'point' Maharaji teaches the premies. That is, that knowledge isn't for people who aren't interested. I thought that was profound, as if the premies were going to kidnap people and force them to receive knowledge against their will. Maharaji says this point with a lot of emphasis, and the premies act like village idiots, like that never occurred to them before.

Anyhow, I will comment more later, and I think we should view this on Sunday evening in the North Bay video festival at Disculta's.

I want to mention the audience of premies, which I think is partly reflective of Maharaji's problem.

The 'training' was in a hotel banquet room in an Atlanta hotel in July 2000. Maharaji stands on a dias at the front, and the premies are set way, way back from him, up against the walls of the ballroom, which is kind of strange. Maharaji waddles around on the dias making 'points.'

Anyhow, the audience is entirely lily white. You might think that in a city like Atlanta, which has a majority African-American population, there would be at least ONE person of color there, but no, not one, zero.

Second, the audience is also all middle aged or older. I saw not one younger person in the audience, which was 'panned' many times. Everyone was dressed very conservatively, but modestly, like they were going to church. It looked like a room full of aging baby-boomer Republicans from Orange County. More women than men, maybe 60% women and maybe 50-60 people total.

I did recognize a couple of people I knew, although I hadn't seen them in 15 years. I guess these are the 'church ladies' right?

I am almost speechless after seeing this video. I can tell you one thing..this cult is going nowhere propagation-wise. The main problem is this: Maharaji says that premies should tell others about the 'possibility' of knowledge and it should be a pleasurable experience, and then he absolutely scares the shit out of them about what might happen if they say the wrong thing. That's the first problem.

Second, the problem is Maharaji. First, he says you don't have to 'sell' Maharaji, but then he says that you probably are not describing Maharaji as 'great' as he really is. Huh? He says that EVERYTHING is due to the Master. If the Master doesn't want people to receive knowledge they don't and he also says the experience is due to the Master. (really, it's that blatant). BUT he implies that the premies shouldn't tell people that, sort of. He gives no explantion as to how Maharaji should be described, explained, or what purpose he serves. But then, as I said, he said most people probably don't speak well enough of him. It's really confused.

He says there are terrible problems from the 70s which were due to the Mahatmas and their concepts, and that's why he had to tell people at some point to not tell anyone about knowlege as a 'stop gap.' He says he is now "revisiting" that and thinks it's time to tell people about knowledge again. The examples of what the Mahatmas said were that Maharaji 'spoke 48 languages" and that he "walked on water."

Again, proof by absurd anecdote, and for the record, I never heard anyone, including any Mahatma attribute those abilities to Maharaji. He conveniently does not mention his claiming to be the incarnation of God like Jesus and Krishna, or his dancing around with Krishna outfits on until 1983. He also doesn't mention his claiming to be saving people by his 'grace' that we should 'pray' to him and all the rest he preached for many, many years. These things apparently weren't the problem, it was all the Mahatmas, and the premies.

He does, however, consider it pathetic that 'we' are, to this day, having to defend against those things, and show that they are not true. (Obvious reference to EPO and ex-premies reminding the world of M's past, but unclear how he has ever demonstrated lack of accuracy), which, he reiterates, was all due to the Mahatmas and the premies who were just 'wild' in the way they talked about him, back then. This, he says, has put him into a "deep hole" and he has never recovered from. He seems completely oblivious to how "coming clean" and being honest might help him in that regard. Instead, he blames the Mahatmas and the premies.

This Maharaji guy is a fucking piece of work, let me tell you.

Hey guys, I thought it was bad, but it's much, much worse than even I thought.

Pat and Chuck, I now understand the reaction you had. Amazing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 10:27:12 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Encore
Message:
Chris, below, touched on the fact that this video is the one that we commonly refer to as The Michael Nouri video used in the Kit promotional presentation. It was sent out to the communities under the stictest of conditions, because they said it could do damage in the wrong hands.

Nouri appears during the Atlanta video, via breaks, explaining what Maharaji just said. Bullet point notes appear of what Maharaji said, with Nouri reading them.

It's like he was trying to convince us this was such a brilliant presentation we were unable to digest it without help!

A video snippet of Maharaji dropping in at some LA event, dribbling more of the same, appears near the end.

This Atlanta video version was the last drip for many a premie, I do believe.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 18:41:42 (EST)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It
Message:
I do believe it, I have seen it, but I know what you mean, it is 'unbelievable'.
This was my next to last 'drip'.The last being reading Michael Dettmers posts about x-rating. I have a recording of it from which I transcribed two passages and posted them on the forum. I see that Patrick W has dragged them out of the archives and posted them below, but they have aquired a lot of funny symbols. They are easier to read on EPO in the 'best of forum section', second one down, entitled 'Miragey's recent diatribe'
I first watched this with some premie friends who told me that it was wonderful 'he makes it all so clear'. Well he certainly made it clear to me! How anyone can watch this and not see right through him is beyond me. His arrogance is extraordinary.
'Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master.The Master doesn’t want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? They’re not happening.The Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes.'

So this is where he admits that he changes the rules, just as he pleases, but he is the master, so that's ok! Somewhere in this training he talks about not wanting people to come along with their own ideas, that he needs people who will just do as they're told. ' He often says things like, it used to really worry me. 'I was only following orders!'
But most of all, what I hated about that training was the way he was talking to his followers, people who had devoted their lives to him...talking down to them in the most supercilious and condescending fashion, treating them like imbeciles. It was disgusting.
I'm hanging on to this video,just in case I ever need reminding how vile he can be.
I can just imagine how you felt when you saw it Joe.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 11:56:25 (EST)
From: cq
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: Kelly
Subject: Re: Atlanta Training
Message:
Hi Kelly,

Long time no see. Hope all's well with you and yours.

Re. the training video - Joe was going to lend me his copy, but it's the American NTSC version. Any chance of popping your UK version (or a copy of it) in the post? - I'll reimburse any expenses. And with a bit of luck, or rather time, I could transcribe the juicy bits and post them here. What do you think? Good idea?

My email address is above if you think so.

tara for now.

Chris

PS - are we Latvian niting again this year?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 23:42:37 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: He's Got the Power
Message:
The Master doesn’t want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? They’re not happening So he finally admits that he is behind the death of propogation - he's just so darn masterful.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:58:39 (EST)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It
Message:
hi joe, i remember some discussion of this training when i first started posting. you hit on the point of m blaming others for the failure of propagation. this has always been an interesting point from which to enter into the process the dynamic of this particular guru.
here we have a person supposedly so powerful slidding into a victim mode of thinking and talking...blaming others for the failure of the mission he accepted from his father to 'spread knowledge to the whole world'. here is a person who i witnessed many many times quite willing to call mahatmas to denver or malibu or miami and scream at them about something that was displeasing him. a guy who called mahatmas and initiations together when ever he pleased, would have them sit for days and days and never show up to speak to them...to set them straight about the work he wanted them to do, nor explain to them how to do it. he had so many chances to tell the mahatmas what he wanted them to say and not to say...who would sit there on the stage and specifically want a particular instructor or mahatma to speak before he did..knowing full well they would say things like 'guru is greater then god, because gure reveals god'...or what ever rubbish, he knew full well what they would say and not do anything about it...only to years (or months or whatever) to blame them for his troubles

here is a guy who is supposed to be so special, so talented, so wise and could never exert the appropriate leadership to create any structure to help him do his 'work', fullfil his purpose. always someone else's fault. there have been many phases of revisionism..and then often phases of reversion back to blantant devotion as well...the impact always the message that 'one cannot do anything right with out the master' how 'much you need the master in your life' etc. etc.

so, in fact, he has been effective at continueously creating these broad strokes of 'lila'..the play between the master and the true devotee. this is the path of bakti yoga...devotional yoga that m has been on since the beginning and the path that current premies seem to want to be on themselves. surely the recent series of 'appreciation/audience' programs has demonstrated that once again.

it is not surprising that the aging group of followers (certainly generally speaking) want most to just be with him..just of touch his feet and sing his praises. all the rest is either cover and public projection to give those followers some way to justify to their own psycics that that is not what it is about really..not completely. especially for the western premies who need to feel like they are doing some good in the world. and that by following m, they are helping him spread this good news to a world that needs it.

in india, etc. there is no pretense like this...just pure bakti yoga..master and devotee.

so, the process of m getting angry and premies taking it is all part of the game that they all willingly participate in. a game that reinforces the relationship of the master and the devotee...reinforces the relationship of power and subservience that is implicit in that dynamic

no point in expecting more then this...i am not surprised (and i doubt many readers here are really surprised...nor really disappointed any more) that it is what it has always been. the show, the obvious disparagy between messages is just m's way to seperate the wheat from the chaff. and premies want to feel like they are the wheat. that they see through the games and still can surrender to the feet of the lord.

m's responsibility of/for the ashram is the same. how many times did he call special ashram meeting during or just after major programs to give those folks (us folks) special attention and recognition for the further steps into surrender that were being taken. he knew full well that he was creating a dynamic within the movement of his...to give a practicular group special attention only made others want to be there so they too could get that special attention. and what a mess that created...he created by that tactic. folks joining the ashram, saying what ever they had to, to be able to join a 'life long' committment many motivated only by the hope to have that 'special session' with m once or twice a year.

well...it goes on and on. its always been about devotion (and money of course) and it always will be.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 16:46:19 (EST)
From: JS
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: You got it Donner!...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 13:57:51 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: In a nutshell, Donner
Message:
You said: ''it is not surprising that the aging group of followers (certainly generally speaking) want most to just be with him..just of touch his feet and sing his praises. all the rest is either cover and public projection to give those followers some way to justify to their own psycics that that is not what it is about really..not completely. especially for the western premies who need to feel like they are doing some good in the world. and that by following m, they are helping him spread this good news to a world that needs it. in india, etc. there is no pretense like this...just pure bakti yoga..master and devotee.''

It seems to suit some westerners. One premie as much as gloated on LG the other day that it's great that we all walked away and now just the real devotees remain. Trouble is I see the die-hards have adopted amoral, passive, solipsistic and fatalistic Hinduism.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 07:43:13 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: bhakti yoga............
Message:
maybe is okay when the master at least would have the qualities of a dog.

wolfie wishing to have devotion for my existence

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:13:33 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Excellent Michael
Message:
Of course, what you are saying is, unfortunately absolutely correct and I was once in that place myself, and I am so grateful, I have so much 'gratitude' that I'm out of it.

I think one of the purposes of EPO and ex-premies is to at least let people know the truth, because the fact that bakti/devotion is the essence of Maharaji's trip, and the resulting continued humiliation and submission of the premies to whatever ignorant, cruel or insensitive thing he does, (including that Atlanta "training") is hidden from potential aspirants, and Maharaji is continually excused from taking any responsbility for anything.

Also, I think premies can be trapped in that whole morass and not realize that is what is happening. They are somehow able to convince themselves it is really not the case.

That is what is so infuriating about that video Passages. It is one big video rationalization/exculpation for Maharaji, by, basically, blaming his followers, using a bunch of his followers to engage in that process of blame and self-abuse.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:29:07 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It
Message:
Hi,

I saw a part of this video at the programm in Mainz (Germany).My statment afterwards was so everybody could hear it standing next to me and my wife: 'Now he is gone crazy!!!!' There was no reaction from the ones who've heard my statment.

M's show on this video is one of the worst, I think he was drunk from a night before or so. It's unbelievable and we believed in a person like him. I thought a long time, he is the most integer person on this planent. Autsch!!!!!!!!!!!

I never thought I could be more ignorant than the folks who run for the 'great Fuehrer' here in Germany, I think I managed it.

The ones who still think this video is great and very instructive are completly brainwashed or without any substance. Sorry.

.............wolfie running as fast as he can!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:36:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: The problem in a nutshell
Message:
Good for you, Wolfie that you were able to see that. I don't know how many people in that hotel banquet room in Atlanta did, but I'm sure some did. I'm reprinting what I posted to Jim, down below, because it kind of summarizes my view of that video.

Maharaji specifically said in the training that if things don't change, he can pretty much forget propagation. And yet, it's clear he had no idea how to change anything. He kept talking about the 'new' way to propagate knowledge. Other than his use of the word 'possibility' which he repeated so many times, he must think the premies are brain-dead, there isn't anything there.

Then, he said, that not only did the premie have to tell the person about the 'possibility' of knowledge, being so deadly careful not to say the wrong thing, they also had to see that the person saw the right videos, received knowledge, and 'enjoyed' knowledge for the rest of their lives.

He puts all this responsbility on the premies, and at the same time, gives them ZERO credit for doing anything themselves, because it's ALL due to the 'Master,' scaring the shit out of them for possibily doing things wrong, blaming them (and the Mahatmas) for how screwed up things were in the past resulting in the current pathetic problems he has, and on and on. I wondered how ANYONE walking out of that room, would have any self-confidence to do ANYTHING in regard to propagation. One also wonders what the hell it is that Maharaji does, in regard to propagation, because he clearly puts the onus on the premies, and they are clearly in a no-win situation.

And of course, the result is, premies don't tell anybody about knowledge, because they haven't a clue how to, especially because they have no idea how to explain Maharaji.

Somebody, probably Valerio Pascotto, has convinced M that the way to get things going is by these strange 'trainings' and I think he has probably already abandoned them, as this was a year ago. We shall see what the 'next' NEW thing for propagation will be, and how long he can con the premies into thinking he actually knows what the hell he's doing.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 07:28:32 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: without EPO .........
Message:
I would have not seen it so clear. I would have seen it, but I would have swalloed at least a little bit.

This whole M - story is a mess, hard to analize the different aspects.
In the moment I'm completly bored to talk about, maybe this is somekind of depression about my own involvment with this cult. I don't like to talk about it anymore because there is not much to say besides: ' it is disgusting '

a mess is a mess is a mess................ciao wolfie

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:50:48 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I believe and I wish
Message:
Did he also blame mahatmas for last year darshans? Did he officially cancel darshans before those? As a premie I wished to have THAT again as most premies did and do. Why did M cancel public ones? Do someone know? Why I wanted to have it? Who I thought he was? Why is still not clear for me who I thought he was?? I wish I can understand everything, to already have all the pieces of the puzzle in my mind, for all this to finish. Or never started at all. I thought everything was OK, and here I am, crying again, with sadness and rage. Poor premies we were and they are, so innocent, without knowing anything. I wish I can have him here, in this room, and punch him in the head, I wish I could go to a big public event and be brave enough to confront him and tell him how much I hate him in this moment. Thanks I have the sweet voice of my little boy asking me for a towel, it's almost late for school, but I still have this heavy feeling in my heart. But it will go away and it's going to be OK again.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:02:16 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: To Sulla
Message:
It WILL get better and it IS very confusing to leave MJ because it can feel as though you are having to reject parts of yourself. The parts that were innocent and idealistic and naive and open and loved MJ for who he said he was, and sometimes seemed to be.

It takes a bit of thinking through, but I think the trick is to realize that what we were seeing was just a reflection of our own radiant inner selves, and that the devotion and love we felt towards that was good, and we can keep it, just redirect it. Devotion to the self is good. It heals a lot of the wounds that being an unloved devotee can inflict.

All the feelings moving through are a good sign, I think, that you are moving fast from one organization of self to another. I've found it best to not resist the feelings and give them lots of space, at the same time as making sure that they don't get mixed up with any thoughts that are beating ME up.

Hope this helps. Glad you've got a little boy for some good ole human love.

Much love to you, Katie Darling

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 13:28:04 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: You helped me
Message:
Thanks Disculta for your words. They help me to remember and again understand why : ' for who he said he was, and sometimes seemed to be.' Some times it's difficult when a part inside, somewhere, is touched and starts to bleed, when you realized that something has being damage, and that moment of pain becomes more real than any reason.
I'm feeling sick today but it will pass. Enjoy that California video event, maybe one day we'll have one here in FL. Yes, I'm glad I have my children (3) , my husband and the possibility to share that human love with them and everybody else.

Much love to you also.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 18:25:36 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Sulla, hablas espanol?
Message:
Yo hablo espanol. Si alguna vez te sientes mal y quieres hablar por e-mail mi direccion es darlingwave@aol.com.
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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 10:50:11 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Si chica, lo hablo y tambien lo escribo.
Message:
Thanks for your offer, I will. Do you Know some ex premies around Fl.? That would be nice to know.
Besos.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 03:10:40 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: This thread *** Best of Forum ***
Message:
IMO ..... Thank you all.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:19:50 (EST)
From: Francesca :~)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Deep hole! YESSS!
Message:
Joe, this is great.

This, he says, has put him into a 'deep hole' and he has never recovered from.

This is wonderful news. I will throw him a few bananas if I ever find the zoo he's in.

--f

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:32:43 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca :~)
Subject: Actual quote
Message:
I was summarizing from memory, but thanks to Kelly, we have the exact quote:

...the bad news is that the concepts have really gotten us in a hole to this day, where we're still having to defend ourselves, which I find pathetic (he spits this out) having to defend ourselves and say.. No.. these things are not true.

What Kelly says about Ms arrogant, condescending attitude it very true. My question is, how can premies sit and be told they are idiots, too stupid to know how to express their own experience? He is just so insulting to them, and yet they seem to love it.

I did notice a couple of people "squirming" in the audience. One woman appeared about to leave a couple of times, but just kind of folded her arms and sat there. I think there are people who felt how weird it was, but most just looked blankly with smiles on their faces.

Did I ever look like that? God, I hope not, and if I did, I thank God I got out before portable video cameras, or I might be seen on tape!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:37:14 (EST)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Actual quote
Message:
My question is, how can premies sit and be told they are idiots, too stupid to know how to express their own experience? He is just so insulting to them, and yet they seem to love it.

I did notice a couple of people "squirming" in the audience. One woman appeared about to leave a couple of times, but just kind of folded her arms and sat there. I think there are people who felt how weird it was, but most just looked blankly with smiles on their faces.

Did I ever look like that? God, I hope not, and if I did, I thank God I got out before portable video cameras, or I might be seen on tape!


---

Hi Joe,
Excellent post from the beginning. I feel that these people still think as was already posted that the guy is god in a bod and also have no self esteem or self worth to stand up and say to m I don't agree with you and you are not being respectful of me. They think they are sinners, for lack of a better word, undeservling...Oh I could go on and on this makes me still so angry...
Thank you so very much I enjoy reading your posts.
Mercedes

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:23:50 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: North Bay Video Festival this Sunday
Message:
Gosh darn, I can't wait to see this! I haven't even SEEN him for 17 years except one old video I watched years ago, and a snippet of LOTU that I put in my birthday film last year. But I haven't seen the adult MJ at all.

Hey come one, come all, come to the North Bay Video Festival (San Francisco Bay) this Sunday eve chez moi. Any other takers? I can put you up if you want to pop down from, say, Seattle?!!!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:38:47 (EST)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: North Bay Video Festival this Sunday
Message:
That is mighty tempting, I am not sure I can make it though.
Love,
Mercedes
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 03:17:45 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: I hope you guys have a strong stomach!
Message:
I wish I was on the West Coast, it would be fun to meet you all.

Now, I'm going to start worring if this becomes a regular thing and you guys get the sudden urge to purchase a satellite dish. Although it would be hilarious to watch a video of the ex's watching a video of Maharaji.

Enjoy youselves
Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:17:46 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Pathological Liar
Message:
I wonder if m has convinced himself that he had no part in the hindu dog and pony show he headed up in the west. Is it possible he has spun his deception and lies for so long that he actually believes it?

Talk about narcissitic and egomaniacal. Does he consider for one moment that his own lack of responsibility and care towards the welfare of his followers, his spin-doctoring revisionism and never-ending quest for funds in the west are the reasons propogation is dead?

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:53:09 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It
Message:
Thanks for that review of the video.

The more I think about it, the more I believe mahaha is just stupid.

I don't think he wants propagation at all. I think he just wants money.

All he's ever done is complain and complain again. He can do no wrong, everything is always someone else's fault.

One of the biggest drips for me was that maharaji consistently revised how ''propagation'' would happen. From the beginning of my involvement in 1975, things were in flux. From the beginning of my involvement he justified every material thing he wanted by assigning it to propagation.

I do think he's addicted to adultation, but more addicted to things. What a piece of work is right. And he just can't see it.

Maharaji has the least self-knowledge of anyone I ever met. As I've said before, he lives in a box of mirrors, and can't see anything but himself.

Thanks again, Joe

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:43:44 (EST)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It
Message:
'I do think he's addicted to adultation, but more addicted to things. What a piece of work is
right. And he just can't see it.

Maharaji has the least self-knowledge of anyone I ever met. As I've said before, he lives in a
box of mirrors, and can't see anything but himself.'

You got it Cynthia, he is dysfunctional to the core, a complete addict, narcissistic idiot.
Mercedes

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:39:55 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Atlanta Training -- You Won't Believe It
Message:
We were only able to watch about 15 minutes of it before looking at each other and saying, ''That's it. It's over. I'm out of here. Rawat is insane.''

A few months after coming onto the forum I wrote a description of it which is far from accurate but is a very subjective memory of the horrible effect it had on me. Here it is:

Propagation Seminar in Atlanta, 2000

Maharaji addresses an audience of about 80 to 100 people in a hotel ballroom. The Pewks are seated around the edges of three sides and Rev Rawat occupies the fourth side surrounded by an array of corporate CEO-type sales-hype toys: a white drawing board, desk with laptop PC, lectern etc.

He walks around all through the sermon with a felt-tip pen in his hand acting very dotcommy, with one hand in his pocket and (I kid you not) his tongue often in his cheek. He sticks his tongue in the left cheek pouch between his bottom teeth and bottom lip whenever he tells a joke or says something which he thinks is profound or clever. While doing this fifth technique he is pulling a face which I think is meant to be a kooool California smile or perhaps a Bush-lite smirk.

The sermon is about the who, what, how of propagating Knowledge. Examples:

''Should everybody have Knowledge?'' He asks and puts his tongue in his cheek.

Then he looks at audience mischievously smirks and says: ''I see some of you nodding and others shaking their heads.''

He then does not answer the question (as he never does answer any questions) but non-sequiturs into another topic.

He blames the mahatmas for introducing Hinduism and says that it is not fair to blame him for this as some people do because he has said from the beginning that it is not a religion. He speaks as if the audience knows of the criticisms being levelled at him. The audience is after all quite exclusive, mostly rich Pewks and industrial strength church ladies.

He tells them that the most dangerous time to talk about Knowledge is when they are ''feeling that fuzzy feeling, you know the warm fuzzy feeling.'' He then says that it is dangerous because they will introduce concepts about who Maharaji is and that they should have NO concepts about the Master neither about what he is or isn't. And that they do not have to exaggerate his accomplishments or importance even if they are tempted too.

With his last pronouncement he puffs himself up and grins as the audience applauds. All those self-conscious flirtatious attention-getting tactics used to work when he was a chubby pretty little boy but he is now a dumpy, jowly, pompous old fool. The whole act comes off as a spin-control to the share-holders. These Pewks are after all the financial back-bone of the industry in the west. He looks like a huckster trying to impress pyramid scheme suckers that their ''investment'' will pay off big eventually.

Every five minutes or so he walks over to the desk and pushes just one key on the laptop then turns and swivels the pen in the air and says things like: ''Somewhere in Canada there is one guy who has shown the most impressive figures so far. I mean he is bringing more people to Maharaji than anybody else. How does he do it? Well, let me show you.''

He goes to the drawing board. It already has a wobbly circle drawn on it. He draw a small wedge in the circle with his felt-tip pen and says, ''This is how small a part actual propagation, introducing someone to Knowledge for the first time, is. The rest is keeping them there.''

He then wipes the small wedge out and turns to the audience with a flourish. They applaud and he grins from ear to ear having just demonstrated what a wonderful CEO he really is in that he was able to draw a wedge inside a pre-drawn circle and then erase it.

''So how does this guy do it?'' he asks; ''What is he doing right that make his figures the most impressive? Well, apparently this guy has studied every video in the local library and knows them all so well that he knows just exactly the right video to give to the right person to introduce them to Maharaji. That is the way to propagate Knowledge.''

Enough already. I have simply written what I saw not what I was thinking when I saw it. Let it speak for itself. He is truly an embarassment to civilized, intelligent people. It is hard to believe that people like John Horton were in the audience. Well, actually maybe not. I've known plenty of other dumb doctors in my 30 years in that business.

When it is over you come away not having learned anything. He has not answered any specific questions. He has told them that everybody should have Knowledge but that not everybody will be interested. He has said that they should tell people about Knowledge but that they should not talk about it. He has basically again said nothing as usual - hot air.

But the Pewks got the vibe I guess and that got them high and they felt so inspired and then they just wanted to tell everybody the good news when they got home but of course no one really wanted to here about a greedy selfish guru and they couldn't talk about it anyway so it's back to straightening out white table cloths at the video event held every week for the one aspirant who does not always show up.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:48:16 (EST)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Tidbits on blind idolization...
Message:
To PatC, Cynthia and all. Thanks for your observations - these were some of my reactions as well upon watching that DVD.

Aside from showing MJ's true colors as an arrogant ignoramus, I was also amazed at how many other pwk's watching it with me during the KIT actually thought it was great! One guy had even seen it earlier in another city and actually recommended that it be brought to our community with the KIT, saying it's very positive and inspiring!

At the KIT the Atlanta DVD was shown to us in 30-minute segments. After the first day's segment, the group exercises and the simulator interview, I decided I had some more important things cooking at home and excused myself at the break. The instructor's response was, ‘no problem; I hope you can come back for the remaining segment tomorrow - you don't want to miss that part - it's even better!' (I did go back, more out of the fact I had invested $150 than really wanting to go; but of course, I left again at the break the next day as well!)

But this brings me to some of my observations on personality idolization which I find really curiously amazing. How can anyone (no matter how much unquestioning blind love for MJ they still have) not see through his ridiculous arrogance by now!? (or if so, are willing to tolerate it as an acceptable level). It's quite scary.

Also I witnessed that same kind of crowd-swaying in Amaroo. In one talk, MJ was in his tiringly-joking way mocking the sound connection to his mike as ‘Aussie inefficiency', after which I couldn't believe the ‘boos' from the crowd (and I don't think they were in support of the Aussies). The 20–something girl sitting next to me gasped that premies can be so insensitive and started crying for a good 10 minutes. I started to feel tears myself - I've seen enough of insensitivity, too. But in another talk later, MJ, followed by the crowd's claps and cheers, did say he wanted to hand it to the Aussies for all their effort in putting this together. Talk about swaying a crowd by its tail.

It's scary actually - personality idolization can turn a crowd into blind sheep stampeding over a cliff behind its leader. Makes one wonder how far MJ would go before HE starts to notice that his own behaviour is inappropriate......

Chris

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:22:43 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Chris
Subject: Re: Tidbits on blind idolization...
Message:
Chris, in Rawat's mind, there is nothing wrong with what he is doing.

You said: ''It's scary actually - personality idolization can turn a crowd into blind sheep stampeding over a cliff behind its leader. Makes one wonder how far MJ would go before HE starts to notice that his own behaviour is inappropriate......''

Nothing that he can do is inapproriate. He is a Hindu and that religion is all about bliss not morals. He is a bhakti-guru which is all about love not goodness.

As Michael Donner said above: ''it is not surprising that the aging group of followers (certainly generally speaking) want most to just be with him..just of touch his feet and sing his praises. all the rest is either cover and public projection to give those followers some way to justify to their own psycics that that is not what it is about really..not completely. especially for the western premies who need to feel like they are doing some good in the world. and that by following m, they are helping him spread this good news to a world that needs it. in india, etc. there is no pretense like this...just pure bakti yoga..master and devotee.''

It just took some of us longer than others to see that it is purely and simply all about worshipping Rawat no matter how evil he is not about doing good or loving mankind.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 01:55:17 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I wonder.
Message:
Every five minutes or so he walks over to the desk and pushes just one key on the laptop
then turns and swivels the pen in the air and says things like: ''Somewhere in Canada there is
one guy who has shown the most impressive figures so far. I mean he is bringing more people
to Maharaji than anybody else. How does he do it? Well, let me show you.''

I don't think it is too far fetched for Maharaji really to mean at this point in his presentation, 'There is some guy in Canada, ie, Jim Heller, who has brought more people away from Knowledge than anyone else. How does he do it? Let me look again at my computer screen. Yep, the damn forum and EPO is still there.'

It would not surprise me at all for M to have twisted what is and was really happening, Canada and Jim to help him provide filler for his presentation. I guess we will never know, and it is not important, but it does make me wonder.

Fondly, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 18:16:58 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Yes, I thought the same thing
Message:
Exactly! shit that's so darn funny. I thought he was turning the Heller thing around as a reverse statistics.
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Date: Sat, Jan 12, 2002 at 09:54:56 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Great minds think alike, eh Deborah? nt
Message:
****xxx
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:15:45 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: ROFLMAO, Tonette. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:38:11 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Unbelievable!
Message:
Pat,

How can I see it? Is it possible to get a copy of that to Victoria? Maybe Jim and Laurie want to see it too. I'll ask him.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:10:56 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: if you and Jim want to see it...
Message:
....I'll mail my copy to Jim.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 20:59:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, thanks, Pat
Message:
Pat,

That'd be fun. Please do.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:16:40 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Will do, Jim. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:54:17 (EST)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Simultaneous Video E
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 22:32:46 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Disculta, I have to say...
Message:
with all jokes, aside, and having seen your photo, you would look beautiful in a sari! :)

You are so much more beautiful inside and out, than Durga Ji could ever imagine to be.

Have fun you guys!
Love,
Cynthia, the lonely northeast ex-premie with no exes to play with

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:25:21 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, so strange
Message:
He tells them that the most dangerous time to talk about Knowledge is when they are ''feeling that fuzzy feeling, you know the warm fuzzy feeling.'' He then says that it is dangerous because they will introduce concepts about who Maharaji is and that they should have NO concepts about the Master neither about what he is or isn't. And that they do not have to exaggerate his accomplishments or importance even if they are tempted too.

Yes, this is the part where he scares the shit out of them that they might say the wrong thing. He said it was like playing 'Russian Roulette' and they all have 'loaded guns' and it's extremely dangerous (I guess for Maharaji), but he never actually says what it is they are not supposed to say.

Right, the PWK is not supposed to embellish Maharaji, but then M says that they likely are understating who he is, and he also says the Master owns everything related to Knowledge.

The whole thing is so demeaning. It's like the premies are not entitled to have their own opinions and express things in ways they see fit. They have to always be concerned that they are 'thinking' and involved with the area of 'the mind' (yes, he still says that).

His bizarre idea that if you just 'select the right video' for someone to see that will do the trick, and the example of whoever that guy was with great record of bringing people to knowledge by memorizing all the videos in the 'library' was just too weird, like premies are really going to memorize the videos. Plus, Maharaji just says the same stuff over and over anyway, just with new, cute anecdotes and examples.

The purpose of listening to videos is not to learn anything, it's just to get so numbed out that you no longer have questions. It doesn't really matter what he actually says.

Plus, I'm sure those Pwks walked out of there feeling privileged they got to be with M, spending how many hundreds of dollars he charged them for the privilege, but having not a clue what it was he actually wanted them to do.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:48:12 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Yes, so strange
Message:
Hi Joe, you said;
The 'training' was in a hotel banquet room in an Atlanta hotel in July 2000. Maharaji stands on a dias at the front, and the premies are set way, way back from him, up against the walls of the ballroom, which is kind of strange. Maharaji waddles around on the dias making 'points.'

Wonder why he set them so 'way, way back from him' ?
So he couldnt really see thier wierded out eyes?
He does wear glasses, so maybe he prefers a blur to seeing
up close the strange eyes in his audience as they try to be supportive of his sentences.

Was this video sent around to the general premie world?
Is there a way to take out the photo of him giving the toilet motion
and we can put his comment underneath.
Pat C's post about the meeting is really blistering and funny.
Thanks for your posts and do comment further about the video.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:44:43 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Rawat knows propagation is dead in west
Message:
That video convinced me that he is cynical enough that he is pushing the KITs 1) to make money from the PWKs and 2) to convince them that he is still interested in propagation which he is not. He is stringing them along.

Maybe he really does not see that he is the cockroach in the cornflakes as Anth said.

Mostly it seems to be about ''Pwks walked out of there feeling privileged they got to be with M'' as you said - and the dollars of course.

PS There really are quite a few PWKs who remember every video ever made.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 17:52:19 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Rawat knows propagation is dead in west
Message:
The obstacle has always been Maharaji himself. First he's the LOTU, then he's not (wink, wink), except when he wants to be, such as Amaroo events. He alters his name, has the big book burnings, and puts gags on the premies, because only he as Master, can speak about the 'Knowledge' which he owns exclusively. He's not a master of anything but total confusion and disorganization. He is a pathological liar.

My discussion with Joe in a thread below about the Deca project reminded me of how much of an obstacle he has always been. If something doesn't go his way (or his idea of what he wants) heads roll. He becomes abusive verbally, demanding, nasty, and demeaning which reinforces the cult indoctrination. Yet, it's always been his big ass and small brain that's been in the way. Premies, as I remember, have always wanted to please him. What a freak. What do the premies do? They swallow it. What happens when you swallow that shit? You become incompetent as a functioning human being.

The essence of his cult is the worship of him and the belief of his infallibility. Maharaji's World. How can he back-peddle now? Renouncing everything he ever said up to the gag-order era, criticizing everything that doesn't go his way like a two year old, blaming everyone else for his problems: he wants, he wants, he wants. Life doesn't work that way.

I'd like to know, besides his desire for more money, what exactly he is doing, or trying to do. His treatment of premies has never been kind unless he's been on a stage in the act (and even then there have been times when he's been very cruel). The indoctrination of premies from the 70s to believe he is GOD, instilling the fear of leaving, but saying ''the door swings both ways'' (the double bind), talking as if he actually knows something about human compassion, which he doesn't, his accumulation of obscene wealth at the cost of premie marriages, homes, the loss of prime years for the ashram premies, the abuse of their children by pedophiles (while protecting the monsters in a cover up), the loss of precious time in our early lives by wasting it on him and his stupid goals, are but a few examples of how he has been the main obstacle. Then he comes up with a new ''phase'' for propagation, over and over again. It's ludicrous.

If he were truly a master, he would teach and not demand. He's no teacher, much less a master of anything. It is very telling that the premies were in the back of the room in that KIT. His body language (which I've seen before, but not in this particular video) is such that he initiates cues: the tongue in cheek, raising and lowering his voice, speaking words that make no sense while telling premies only HE knows what to do and how to do it and telling them that his 'way is the only way.'

I believe that a lot of premies remember every video ever made. For those premies, the truest believers, I feel empathy. I was there once. But there's a way out. So there's not real excuse for them, especially the PAMs.

That's why I laugh when catweasal or other premies appear here and tell us that we don't know what we're talking about. Or that we never understood, or never put in enough ''effort.'' We most certainly do know what we're talking about.

Most of us were there during the heaviest devotional period of the cult, bowing down, trying to surrender, giving as fully as we knew how, only to be scorned by Maharaji as if we were nothing but rabbits to be shot at his whim. Disposable devotees.

Propagation is dead all right. Dead and gone. It's only about rawat covering his ass, intimidating the remaining true believers into giving more and more until they can't take it anymore. Is this a human being?

All his efforts to gag us here has failed. He has to know that. If he doesn't, then he really is stupid.

Well, Maharaji, we grew up. Now it's time for you to get a job and grow up too.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:44:37 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PS Kelly did a transcript of it
Message:
I can't find it in the forum archives. Perhaps someone can remember what date. Oh, Kelly?
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:32:43 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Transcript is in post just below. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:15:08 (EST)
From: Pat W
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: PS Kelly did a transcript of it
Message:
From archives:

From Kelly

Here are some extracts from a recent satellite broadcast. An amalgamation of two ÒtrainingsÓ, Atlanta and Amaroo, plus some other clips. These particular extracts are from the Atlanta training in July 2000 called ÒIntroducing the possibility of knowledgeÓ This was the next to last ÒdripÓ for me. I was watching a video recording of it, on my own, in my house, and I just hated it so much, I was screaming at the screenÉ.some of it unrepeatable!! but ÉÓ THATÕS IT, IÕM OUTA HEREÓ
Anyway, I thought you might like to hear some of it, so I transcribed thisÉ.
On screen heading, ÒThe FundamentalsÓ

The following extract is a straight, uncut sequence.

MaharajiÉ

ÒKnowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master. The Master doesnÕt want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? TheyÕre not happening. The Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes.
The possibility of knowledge is brought to you by the compliments of your friendly Master. (laughter and applause)

Now, IÕm not getting into the logistics of it OK? I understand it is the people who are interested make many of these things a physical reality. But, the key frame here is, compliments..the Master says, yes this is OK to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride. If youÕre borrowing your neighbourÕs car, the neighbour says yes you may drive it, then one day he may say ..No you may not drive it, I want my car back.

You have to realizeÉ.Ownership of knowledge resides with the MasterÉHearing about knowledge is a privilegeÉ.Being able to talk about knowledge is a privilege, itÕs not a right, itÕs a privilege. ÉReceiving knowledge is a privilegeÉBeing able to practice knowledge is a privilegeÉ..Being able to participate is a privilege.Ó (Audience of invited guests nodding and smiling)

Another extract entitled ÒA little HistoryÓ

MaharajiÉ.

Ó When a lot of the Mahatmas came to the West, they brought with them immeasurable amount of concepts, and it kinda went wild, and there was no stopping it. The backlash of that, I had to directly bear. Because people would ask me point blank these questionsÉÓAre you this? Are you that, you know, What is this? What is that? Ò
(IÕve missed a bit here)

ÒSo, thatÕs the good news, the bad news is that the concepts have really gotten us in a hole to this day, where weÕre still having to defend ourselves, which I find pathetic (he spits this out) having to defend ourselves and say.. No.. these things are not true. So we cannot afford to perpetuate any concepts.
Knowledge worksÉlook, you know, lets face it, knowledge works. The Master, when given the right environment, does his thing, and itÕs great. It all works.

Whatever we forge for the future, we have to remember.. where.. we.. came from, and we have to remember, most importantly, how incredibly dangerous, incredibly dangerous, this stuff isÉ.. Shooting your mouth off is not innocent by any stretch of the imaginationÉ.What you say in yourÉfuzzy feelingÉyou know what I meanÉfuzzy feeling? When youÕre feeling nice and oooh sooo inspired, can be deadly dangerous. What you say cannot have any tolerance for mistakesÉ..

What do you think?É.Does this far of the history make any sense? And why IÕm bringing this up? Because I see you in the same shoes. ThereÕs a lot more of you than there were of themÉ..Comprende?É..Just playing Russian roulette with a lot more guns. Your chances go up. I donÕt want to be in those shoes. I donÕt think these mistakes have to happen and I donÕt think these mistakes need to be thereÓ

I expect you can imagine the way all this was delivered, in that pompous, petulant, arrogant way he speaks, with frequent long pregnant pauses and raised eyebrows. So supercilious, so condescending, so insulting to the audience who are all people who have given up their lives to help him. Oh yes, I forgot, itÕs a privilege!!! Anyway I could comment on this forever, but IÕd be very interested in your comments.

Kelly

Response from Pat W about these Maharaji extracts .

Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are compliments of the Master

Dictionary says: Compliments =Ó An expression of formal respect, civility. A presentÓ.
Thus M says, Knowledge, and all things associated with it, are a given by him (to aspirants and premies) civilly and respectfully. As he goes on it becomes harder to see exactly where the civility and respect part comes in.

ÒThe Master doesnÕt want knowledge sessions to happen, Guess what? TheyÕre not happening.Ó

He is the one controlling the giving out of Knowledge and he can stop doing that whenever he likes. There is a veiled threat that he may withold giving Knowledge if anything (such as actions by the premies listening) give him cause to do so. If Knowledge sessions stop of course thatÕs bad. Thus he engenders fear in the audience who are acutely anxious that it not be their actions or mistakes which lead to him making this clearly dreadful decision.

ÒThe Master changes the rules, creates the rules, disposes of these rules, as the Master wishes.Ó

He can do as he likes and his pupils live in an uncertain world. This is clearly not a ÔmasterÕ in the healthy sense of the word. It is well known that growing children (which could be said to analogous of pupils of a master) need an environment where their limits are well defined. A household where the father is always domineeringly changing the rules undermines the confidence and security of the children.

The possibility of knowledge is brought to you by the compliments of your friendly Master. (laughter and applause)

Tries to soften the unfriendly implications of his speech by suggesting that he is being friendly.

Now, IÕm not getting into the logistics of it OK? I understand it is the people who are interested who make many of these things a physical reality. But, the key frame here is, compliments.

Belittles the fact that it is hugely thanks to the tireless and dedicated work of followers that he is able to do any of this. He wants to disempower them in the equation completely and empower himself above all.

ÒThe Master says, yes this is OK to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride. If youÕre borrowing your neighbourÕs car, the neighbour says yes you may drive it, then one day he may say ..No you may not drive it, I want my car back.Ó

It is NOT your right to talk about Knowledge. That is what without any shadow of doubt he is saying here. This is very disturbing as it implies that he wants to control what people say about their own inner experience. Are we to suppose also that this Knowledge, which is within inside us is borrowed ? that our life itself Ð our very existence is borrowed ?? from him?

What kind of a gift is it that someone gives you that you have no right to talk about???

It is a gift with the condition that you follow rules which change at his whim and you must not talk about if he tells you not to. Of course the Knowledge techniques are the prime secret that you are beholden to him to keep. The right to talk about it is stressed as being a privilege that may be removed at a moments notice.

ÒYou have to realizeÉ.Ownership of knowledge resides with the MasterÉHearing about knowledge is a privilegeÉ.Being able to talk about knowledge is a privilege, itÕs not a right, itÕs a privilege.ÉReceiving knowledge is a privilegeÉBeing able to practice knowledge is a privilegeÉ..Being able to participate is a privilege.Ó (Audience of invited guests nodding and smiling)

He owns your experience. Great. You are beholden to him. The experience of your own Life Force is NOT YOUR RIGHT.
It is not a human beingÕs birthright to know their God, but a privilege that is LENT to him , without any assurance that he can even speak about it, by this incontrovertibly imperfect man , who clearly claims that he is the Perfect Master.

Another extract entitled ÒA little HistoryÓ

Perhaps ÒA little revisionismÓ would have been more apt.

Ò When a lot of the Mahatmas came to the West, they brought with them immeasurable amount of concepts, and it kinda went wild, and there was no stopping it.Ó

Yes, and he tried SO HARD to stop it didnÕt he?

The backlash of that, I had to directly bear.

Poor Maharaji had to suffer because all the mahatmas misrepresented him and Knowledge. All by himself -I think he may be trying to illicit a little sympathy here. Premies will give him heaps. ÒHow could we have allowed him to be so put out?Ó Time to get the flagellatory whips out.

IÕm sorry, but this line of blaming the Indian Mahatmas is grossly unfair. You only have to read MaharajiÕs fatherÕs satsang speeches and you can see where all the Indian concepts came from. Also it would not be hard to prove, by dredging up MaharajiÕs own early speeches, that he brought 99% of those Ôimmeasurable conceptsÓ to the West himself. He whose every word all premieÕs took as gospel . He who clearly said that we should dedicate our lives to him in the Ashram Ðbe celibate (rule one) Ðbe vegetarian (rule 2) Ð etc. etc.
Anyway, so these immeasurable conceptsÉ What is he talking about exactly? Ð and tell me someone please Ð what did the poor old Mahatmas tell us that was so frightful ÐMine just told me to meditate exactly as Maharaji himself prescribed and to do everything else Maharaji demanded himself endlessly. Nothing more that I recall.
So MaharajiÕs revisionism fails to impress me a jot. In fact I am appalled at his lack of taking any responsibility for what he actually demanded from us back then.

ÒBecause people would ask me point blank these questionsÉÓ Are you this? Are you that, you know, What is this? What is thatÓ

He must be referring to the recurrentÒDo you say youÕre God? YouÕre followers say you areÓ question.
Well, clearly one can see that the ÔMasterÕ whom he describes is unmistably ÔGod-likeÓ given his extraordinary powers and claimed authority. Next heÕll be saying ÒI never said IÕm a MasterÓ and accusing premies of misrepresenting him!

ÒÉ the bad news is that the concepts have really gotten us in a hole to this day, where weÕre still having to defend ourselves, which I find pathetic (he spits this out) having to defend ourselves and say.. No these things are not true. So we cannot afford to perpetuate any concepts.Ó

Well. HeÕs hardly helping his defence by spitting out the sort of thing that he has apparently said - if these little extracts are anything to go by.
I think he really badly needs to go a lot further than just saying ÒNo, these things are not trueÓ. OK, so he finds it pathetic to have to be answerable to criticism (which does not reasonably amount to attack - letÕs be clear about this) . But he needs to go further and prove that these things are not true...not just simply claim ÒtheyÕre not true!Ó

Also, if he finds himself Òin a holeÓ and feels Ôunder attackÕ merely because some of his past, undoubtedly sincere, followers want some straight answers then what is so ÔpatheticÕ about showing them a little deserved empathy and apologising to them for subjecting them to so many unreasonable ÔhinduisticÕ demands?

ÒKnowledge worksÉlook, you know, lets face it, knowledge works. The Master, when given the right environment, does his thing, and itÕs great. It all works.Ó

Yes, and my experience of late is that the meditation part works well without the Master bit. Sure the devotion and surrender stuff works well in the right environment. A closed environment where itÕs easy to brainwash people.

Whatever we forge for the future, we have to remember.. where.. we.. came from, and we have to remember, most importantly, how incredibly dangerous, incredibly dangerous, this stuff isÉ.. Shooting your mouth off is not innocent by any stretch of the imaginationÉ.

UhohÉheÕs sounding cross now. ItÕs the Mafioso Boss warning his hoods not to squeal. WeÕre definitely talking in terms of someone who feels that they are in a Ôwar of opposing sidesÕ hereÉ
Remember the World War Two slogan , urging the populace of the dangers of idle chat because HitlerÕs spies were rife ÐÒCareless talk costs livesÓ
I believe that in Germany at this time the warning had a more threatening tone in that if you were judged responsible for such indiscretions you could be shot or hung.

Maharaji says that if you betray him in any way youÕre Ò not innocentÓ ie YOUÓRE GUILTY. He leaves it to the poor intimidated premie to imagine what might be the punishment for this crime.

ÒWhat you say in yourÉfuzzy feelingÉyou know what I meanÉfuzzy feeling? When youÕre feeling nice and oooh sooo inspired, can be deadly dangerous. What you say cannot have any tolerance for mistakesÉ..

Deadly dangerous??!! No tolerance for mistakes? Not even a weeny bit?
I think he waxing a bit melodramatic here. How many blissed out premies, that you have met, have said something Òdeadly dangerousÕ ?? Deadly boring maybe, but life threateningly dangerous Ðhardly. What does he want-people to be so worried about saying what they feel that all they are permitted to do is spout some safe party line?

ÒWhat do you think? .Does this far of the history make any sense?Ó

Excuse me, did I hear correctly? did you ask me for my opinion??

I suppose, at this point in the proceedings, a dozen hands shot up and people had the chance to respond to this rare opportunity to answer Maharaji Ð

ÒNo, it doesnÕt make sense O Master. Actually I was rather wondering if you could explain a little problem I have aboutÉÓ

Of course not. This is not a real question. One that you are allowed to actually answer. You are merely supposed to nod assentingly and silently Ð indeed like so many sheep.

ÒAnd why IÕm bringing this up? Because I see you in the same shoes. ThereÕs a lot more of you than there were of themÉ..Comprende?É.. Just playing Russian roulette with a lot more guns. Your chances go up. I donÕt want to be in those shoes. I donÕt think these mistakes have to happen and I donÕt think these mistakes need to be thereÓ

It sounds to me like heÕs bringing this up because heÕs afraid that premies will again put him in the situation where he will have to ÔdefendÕ himself. Against what? Some simple questions? The situation where he may be called upon to answer some simple straightforward questions seems to fill him with dread. This suggests that he has no answers.

So all the premies are very likely going to screw things up royally for Maharaji given half the chance. He clearly doesnÕt want people to talk about Knowledge or at least he is extremely paranoid that people are going to fatally misrepresent him and Knowledge. This is neither respecful or civil. Why? Because it suggests that those people who have Knowledge are so stupid that they cannot possibly say anything sensible about it. (even though they have supposedly experienced it). Worse, they are more likely to be so off-base that they will cause some ÔdeadlyÕ repercussions.

Maharaji is counting on people giving him the benefit of the doubt and that they will see this ÔwarningÕ as a demonstration of how ÔseriouslyÕ he takes his job as Master and how he is reproving all his flippant, loose tongued followers who are jeopardising his work and how kind he is to let them play even a tiny little part in his work. No matter how you read it, this is a warning to keep the secrets.

IÕm probably too generous in my analysis of MaharajiÕs words. HereÕs what my dear innocent non- premie wife said when I read her the extracts.

ÒMegalomaniac! Who does he think he is? HeÕs got this thing called Knowledge. Once youÕve given something to someone, you canÕt rule their lives and tell them what to do with it and who they can talk to about it! He wants to control people. He feels threatened and scared.Ó

MaharajiÉ.

ÒLet me put it very simply. Are you, in your own self, content with not having to define Maharaji? Maharaji is Maharaji. So how comfortable are you with not having to define Maharaji? ThatÕs the real question, are you comfortable with that? Because if youÕre not, youÕre gonna sit half way, half baked, between the belief system and what Knowledge needs. Until that happens, the history can never really be cleared up, because it still lives in that era. The shade of darkness still loomsÓ

I think this is more obfuscating on M's part. Firstly he suggests that one should not define Maharaji. The alternate to one having clear understanding, definition of Maharaji's role in one's mind, would seem to be to have a 'belief' that he is beyond such definition. A 'belief' is the appropriate word I think.
Then he tries to suggest that Knowledge doen't need a 'belief system', so we're back to having an understanding of him, which surely needs some sort of definition. The 'darkness looming' bit is not clearly explained, so as a warning of dire consequences, it would seem to have been said mainly to have effect through intimidation.

ÒMaharaji is MaharajiÓ

Again he is simply stressing that he can do whatever he likes - he is beyong the limiting definitions that the world puts on him. Hence he can behave as he wishes, demand that his followers accept whatever conditions he wishes and is basically is beyond normal judgement.

As we know this is meglamaniacal talk, so either he is God or he is a megalomanic. I think we tend to think that his lack of kindness and partiality to intimidation amongst many other things, suggest that he is the latter.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:25:18 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Pat W
Subject: Oy vey! Thanks Pat W.
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:36:54 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Wow, What a piece of work
Message:
Thanks for that Joe, It felt as if I had watched much of the video via your deft description of it all.

Just another adroit example of how the boss shoots himself in the lotus feet time and time again.

Amongst this confusion and convolution he apparently understands one thing though, he senses that is he is going down the drain. He just doesn't see that it is his fault.

Rock on maharaji

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:13:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Makes a mockery of Roupell, no?
Message:
He does, however, consider it pathetic that 'we' are, to this day, having to defend against those things, and show that they are not true. (Obvious reference to EPO and ex-premies reminding the world of M's past, but unclear how he has ever demonstrated lack of accuracy), which, he reiterates, was all due to the Mahatmas and the premies who were just 'wild' in the way they talked about him, back then. This, he says, has put him into a 'deep hole' and he has never recovered from. He seems completely oblivious to how 'coming clean' and being honest might help him in that regard. Instead, he blames the Mahatmas and the premies.

(my emphasis)

Funny how people like Roupell gloat that EPO's never fazed Maharaji. What a joke, huh?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:29:15 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: True/Maharaji's Dilemma and the poor premies
Message:
Maharaji specifically said that if things don't change, he can pretty much forget propagation. And yet, it's clear he had no idea how to change anything. He kept talking about the 'new' way to propagate knowledge. Other than his use of the word 'possibility' which he repeated so many times, he must think the premies are brain-dead, there isn't anything there.

Then, he said, that not only did the premie have to tell the person about the 'possibility' of knowledge, being so deadly careful not to say the wrong thing, they also had to see that the person saw the right videos, received knowledge, and 'enjoyed' knowledge for the rest of their lives.

He puts all this responsbility on the premies, and at the same time, gives them ZERO credit for doing anything themselves, because it's ALL due to the 'Master,' scaring the shit out of them for possibily doing things wrong, blaming them (and the Mahatmas) for how screwed up things were in the past resulting in the current pathetic problems he has, and on and on. I wondered how ANYONE walking out of that room, would have any self-confidence to do ANYTHING in regard to propagation.

And of course, the result is, premies don't tell anybody about knowledge, because they haven't a clue how to, especially because they have no idea how to explain Maharaji.

Somebody, probably Valerio Pascotto, has convinced M that the way to get things going is by these strange 'trainings' and I think he has probably already abandoned them, as this was a year ago. We shall see what the 'next' NEW thing for propagation will be, and how long he can con the premies into thinking he actually knows what the hell he's doing.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:28:37 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Makes a mockery of Roupell, no?
Message:
If it weren't for EPO, I think I would be one of dazed and confused village idiots.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:02:48 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Passages -- The blonde mystery woman
Message:
Ask and you shall receive, I guess.

I have been informed the the blonde woman in the video Passages -- A Master's Journey, the one who was concerned that being a follower of Maharaji might require her to wear a sari, is the former Linda Casden (sp?) who used to be married to Ron Casden, but who is now married to... guess who?...the infamous Valerio Pascotto. So, the sari-less blonde is Linda Pascotto.

I am further informed that Ms. Pascotto is a woman of considerable family wealth, is part of the Malibu Mob, and spends quite a bit of time at a really big, but reputedly delapidated, residence on Anacapa View Drive in Malibu.

So, except for one person, we have identified the entire cast of that revisionist piece of insulting crap, all of whom should be deeply embarrassed, as follows:

Ron Geaves
Glen Whittaker
Gurucharanand
Joan Apter
Sampuranand
John Hampton
George Blodwell
Prem Pal Singh Rawat
Peter Lee
Janet Wallace
Sandy Collier
Bobby Hendry
Linda Pascotto

I was contacted by someone who thought the 'Gary Girard' guy (who may not be Gary Girard), who is by far the most revisionist and offensive, might be Virgil Cuillo, but I worked with Virgil in legal at IHQ and I don't think it's him. Anyway, I'm sure we will find out.

I also want to say, that except for the "Gary Girard" guy, and also Ron Geaves, as I already said, the dishonest revisionism attributable to these people might be more due to how the video was edited, and not necessarily to their own willingness to play fast and loose with the truth.

Thanks especially to Mike Finch, but also to everyone who helped identify these people, who did indeed, turn out to be the "usual suspects."

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:25:40 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Correction -- Linda Pascotto
Message:
I have just been informed that the sari-phobic blonde woman in the film is indeed Linda Pascotto, but that she is the former Linda Cohen and is married to the other Pascotto brother, Alvaro Pascotto.

I am informed that Alvaro is Valerio's brother and has been a
premie for 30 or so years. He is now M's principal legal advisor and has been so for the past 15 years.

I think Linda Pascotto does indeed have a position at Elan Vital, although I would assume that isn't long for this world, if what we are hearing about EV is correct.

Now, I hope that clears things up, and it should, unless Valerio is ALSO married to a blonde woman named Linda. :)

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:41:46 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Can this be?
Message:
Joe,

Could that be the same Linda Pascotto who is the Head Honcho of Elan Vital 'Human Resources'?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 16:14:26 (EST)
From: Sir Loin
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: I think you mean 'Inhuman Resources' [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:45:13 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: Yep! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:33:40 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Virgil Cuillo?
Message:
Hi Joe,

I also worked with Virgil in Miami and he was an old fart back then. And a nasty peice of work to boot. Walking around like he owned everyone and their time, espcially mine.

Virgil, wow, now that brings to mind a few choice words I won't type...

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:49:04 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Virgil Cuillo?
Message:
I agree that Virgil would be too old to be that guy in the video. Yeah, Virgil was kind of an old fart, but I got on well with him, but I only worked with him for a brief period.
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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 08:39:12 (EST)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Virgil Cuillo?
Message:
My mate Virgil? It's not him Joe.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:57:27 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Virgil Cuillo??
Message:
Maybe it was women that he liked to boss around. It was very weird. When Virgil came to the small warehouse in Hialeah, he acted like he was Maharaji, Jr. He usually came with the lardass, too, maybe that was it.

Love,
Cynthia, who is envious of the SF gatherings...beam me over :)

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:23:24 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Virgil Cuillo?
Message:
I remember being in a meeting at DECA with Virgil, Hession, not sure who else, when Virgil was going ballistic about the inept way the Boeing 707 was purchased in Ireland. He ranted about it. Apparently a million dollars was paid over by the cult for the plane without proper security, etc. I was a lowly peon in the legal department, had just arrived at DECA, and just sat there, amazed.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:40:21 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Virgil Cuillo?
Message:
It was probably Guy Rollins because he attended all meetings that involved the B707--Jim Hession, too. Maharaji ridiculed Guy a lot because he was placed in the position of head of the project design as an architect (which he was). Maharaji constantly would make fun of Guy, saying stuff like, what do you know about reconfiguring an airplane? What have you designed, like, ONE HOUSE?

I felt bad for Guy, he just would blush and take it. Same for Jim Hession too. Those guys took verbal beatings from the big creep.

I was a lowly peon, too, Joe. At the time I thought I was lucky, graced, whatever. I was probably sitting right outside the office when you were there.

You must have been in shock. Virgil was volitile. Not to mention fatboy.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:22:57 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Virgil Cuillo??
Message:
Yeah, I'm sure Rollins was there, but M wasn't there. I never got invited to THOSE meetings. I wasn't in shock, really, just amazed that things were really that shoddy.

I saw M be really mean to Hession one time, but Hession could also be very weird to people. He implied I was to un-devoted to stay at DECA, and that's when I got made CC in Miami, which I hated only slightly less than DECA.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:30:23 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Virgil Cuillo?
Message:
CC in Miami must have been quite a strange trip to say the least.

Not devoted enough? Hmmmmm....

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:44:10 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Virgil Cuillo?
Message:
That was the implication. Before I got sent to Miami, many of the ashram premies in the provinces, like Chicago, dreamed of being 'called' to serve Maharaji at one of his 'projects' and if he was around, all the better.

Premies were getting sent from the ashrams to Miami in large numbers to be slave labor at DECA, but I was not that into it. But, I got sent anyhow, and being the surrendered ashram premie I was, I went, and it was weird to say the least.

First I was at IHQ, then CC in Washington DC, then back to Miami at DECA, then CC in Miami, all in about 2-3 years. I liked DC a lot, and the people I got to work with in the Miami community I loved dearly. One was your neighbor Eric, and one was my friend Nancy Bloom from Boston. The three of us got to be close friends. The community was very weird, however.

Nancy thinks Maharaji is a moron, and Eric did too, for awhile at least, although I think his wife may have enticed him into toying with the cult again, as you know. I was Eric's best man at his wedding. I should call him, as I think their anniversary is this month.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 22:17:19 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Call him, Joe...
Message:
I think Eric would love to hear from you. He's a very good man and he was your friend. He has a beautiful house in Vermont that he's worked very hard to make it a home.

Call him. Just to say hi. I think he would be happy to hear from you. Who wouldn't?

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:31:48 (EST)
From: cq
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Joe -
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:38:41 (EST)
From: cq
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.uk.co
To: cq
Subject: Re: Hey Joe - sheesh, sorry 'bout that
Message:
what I had posted (but now gone to that big databank in the sky, thanks to the mysteries of The Net) was this:

Hey Joe (sorry, Hendrix fans, this ain't a reprise) -

weren't you going to send me an audio cassette of an infamous (well it may yet be) showdown between Mr MahaFreeLunch and his 'co-ordinators'?

I'd love to transcribe it and post it here and/or on EPO for the bemusement/amusement of all and sundry.

You've still got my address, no?

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:33:00 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Thanks cq
Message:
Sorry I didn't let you know this, but Cynthia volunteered to do the transcription, and it was just easier to mail it in the USA. Thanks so much for the offer.

Cynthia says she has a strong stomach for it, which is pretty much required, especially when you hear Maharaji say that leaving the ashram and getting married is equivalent to blowing your brains out with dynamite. But he was just so cute then, wasn't he?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:44:45 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: No probs - but here's an idea
Message:
how about me transcribing the Atlanta training video?

I'd need to borrow the vid, of course, but could easily return it (or a copy of it) when the job's done.

Let me know, huh?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 13:04:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Great
Message:
But don't you require a different format in the UK? If so, you might be able to get it from Kelly, if she hasn't thrown it away, after stomping on it, running over it with her car, having her cat deficate on it, and then throwing it into the trash. :)
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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 11:48:28 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You're right, Joe
Message:
Yup, NTSC won't play on us Brits' PAL machines. I'll ask Kelly if her cat's finished with it yet.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:45:49 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Hey Joe - sheesh, sorry 'bout that
Message:
Hi cq,

I've got it and am working on it...not to worry:)

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 17:19:34 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks, Cynthia (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 06:08:09 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I just looked up elan vital on Google
Message:
It said;

'Elan Vital - Home Page
... Copyright ©2002 Elan Vital. All Rights Reserved. Site Terms, ...
Description: Maharaji shares a simple yet profound message with those who wish to hear it: happiness is not a result... '

Just had to share that bit of magic.

Peg

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:12:11 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: For me happiness is a result
Message:
It said;

'Elan Vital - Home Page
... Copyright ©2002 Elan Vital. All Rights Reserved. Site Terms, ...
Description: Maharaji shares a simple yet profound message with those who wish to hear it: happiness is not a result... '

Just had to share that bit of magic.

Peg


---

Not my experience at all. Knowledge has made me happier. Thanks to Knowledge I now dread only one day at a time. In fact, if it was not for Knowledge I would have died a bitter man.

Freedom, as Krishnamurti pointed out, comes out of individual experience. And all conflict between people is a conflict of personal reality, i.e. the reality we carry in our three-pound universe (our you-niverse). We do not perceive the world in the same way. And when someone else sees things differently we interpret it as a threat and get sad, scared or angry. If you don’t believe me just read the paper.

For the most part we don’t want to know about Reality with a capital R. We want to live in our personal little 'dream world,' where someone else is supposed to take of it all. And if something goes wrong, someone else will be there to tell us it was not our fault.

We are all form junkies conditioned to believe that someone other than us is going to ensure that our life is happy. A form could be a guru, a concept or belief system, the cavalry. Form junkies are prisoners of hope. Hope is the belief that some source external to ourselves is going to save our ass, so we can live happily after. Hope keeps all the suffering in place. Hopelessness is finding out that it is all up to you. We are asking form to do something that it simply can’t deliver. But nobody wants to know that.

So our happiness is not dependent on form – on something external. And when the form (Maharaji, God, Santa Claus, our wife, husband) doesn’t bring us happiness, then we start blaming and running a victim story. IMO that’s what is going on this site. People running non-stop victim stories. If a train hits you, you can blame the train, but remember you're the asshole who put yourself on the track.

In summary, what happens in our life doesn’t make us crazy. It’s the decisions we make about what happened to us, that makes us crazy. Our concepts! It’s our our conditioning, it's our concepts that run our life. Maharaji said a long time ago that Knowledge is a “concept bomb.” So please get bombing and stop whining. Stop pissing your life away.

We use one another to play parts in each other’s soap opera. What a waste of time! But nobody wants to know that.

The sermon is over, so go ahead a rip me!!!!!!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 03:49:29 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: For me happiness is a result
Message:
Knowledge has made me happier. Thanks to Knowledge I now dread only one day at a time. In fact, if it was not for Knowledge I would have died a bitter man.

and

We are all form junkies conditioned to believe that someone other than us is going to ensure that our life is happy. Form junkies are prisoners of hope. Hope is the belief that some source external to ourselves is going to save our ass, so we can live happily after. Hope keeps all the suffering in place. Hopelessness is finding out that it is all up to you.

Quite wonderful contradiction in your own statements dear Dog.
Despite your own understanding as it comes forward in the second paragraph, you still express codependency in the first.

Why don't you give in to your own arguments and give it all up. There is nothing k can do for you, there is nothing k can give you that isn't already yours. There is no happiness to derive from it, nothing to gain from it. You are already complete. K has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Mirror

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 02:43:25 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: all true, all good-and i still
Message:
reserve the right to get pissed off and blow up and point fingers at someone else when they do things that my three pound brain thinks are WRONG.

as my best friend likes to yell to people who 'think they are all that , and a box of cookies'
---

'get over it! you ain't special'

every creature on earth has a self protection system and uses it. why would i want to go and exile myself from the great, beating mass of life by trying to place myself outside of it? that can get real lonely.

bark!bark! growl! grrrrr. snarl, snarl! yelp!

even mice gripe and complain at one another over their tiny little differences. and lest you think it's funny, just try interfering. they'll bite you and draw blood! and it will hurt for a week while you heal and learn some respect for another creature's reality!

as long as the maha yells at us, we can yell right back at him. he started it. his three pounds of reality isn't any better than anyone else's. why doncha send this brilliant treatise on over to him?
after atlanta, he needs someone to explain to him why what he wants is never gonna happen like he wants it to. you've got it all, right there.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 20:03:51 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: For me happiness is a result
Message:
'The sermon is over, so go ahead a rip me!'

I'm a somewhat impartial observer here, since I never accepted 'knowledge.' But I did watch lots of videos, went to one event, and listened to many audio cassettes. The last thing I want to do is 'rip' you. In fact, your opinions share some things in common with many people here. For example, you state:

'In summary, what happens in our life doesn’t make us crazy. It’s the decisions we make about what happened to us, that makes us crazy. Our concepts!'

Everyone here had a 'bigger than life' concept of Maharaji at one time or another. For some, that was a treacherous mistake. But everyone here has accepted our own fallability, the ability to make a mistake, believe something we now know as false, and help others move on. The first step in getting out of the way of an oncoming train (your imagery) is to recognize one's predicament then act accordingly.

In meeting premies, one thing is sure, you don't like to examine your situation. If you did, you would surely realize the disastrous consequences which befall these types of autocratic organizations. How much time before your money is wasted, your life aspirations are thwarted, and your ability to think independently of a 'master' are all ruined? You don't have to reason everything out now, your thinking abilties might be numb, so give it some time.

People like me who enter this forum know the decision to put ourselves in front of Maharaji was a crazy, even dangerous moment in our lives. But that was a mistake that each of made. In fact, you made the same decision as us, even though you're ecstatic with your outcome. Remind yourself of one thing: who do you think controls your life? Let us know. I'm curious. Who controls you? I'm saying the train is headed right at you. So, who's going to prevent you from taking control?

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 19:14:25 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: hello Dog!
Message:
I am sorry to here that you dread one day at a time.

don't want to rip you , and am not that good at it anyway.

Honestly though if you are dreading your days it might be worth considering giving knowledge and devotion a break and looking without bias at what is said here and on epo .

I am not saying that maharaji made me crazy, and I do take responsibility for choosing to put him in such a prominent role in my soap opera.

But I reserve the right now, having stepped back and taken a more thorough look at him, his knowledge and his (in my opinion) VERY questionable behaviour, to reject him and for me that does involve being angry.

Soap opera it may be but for me the plot has just opened up and one of the worst baddies is fading out of the picture.

Take care
peg

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:13:52 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Fence-Shitting
Message:
The problem, Dog, is that you are saying a bunch of things all at once without a coherent point. Or at least a point that speaks to the experiences of the people posting on this forum. Let's look a little closer at what you are saying.

Freedom, as Krishnamurti pointed out, comes out of individual experience.
Well, assuming he is talking about some kind of 'spiritual' freedom where else would it come from? An individual experience of what though? That's about as illuminating as saying anger is an individual experience. So thanks for the brilliant prelude. But if he is talking about freedom in a political sense, it might just as easily be described as a collective experience, because we are not free if our neighbours are oppressed.

And all conflict between people is a conflict of personal reality, i.e. the reality we carry in our three-pound universe (our you-niverse). We do not perceive the world in the same way. And when someone else sees things differently we interpret it as a threat and get sad, scared or angry. If you don’t believe me just read the paper.
Sorry but this is an over-simplificatiion and not a universal truth. It is possible for instance for one person to have an erroneous perception or description of events that he presents to another as 'reality'. The other person or group of people may object not because what is said is perceived as a 'threat and (therefore) get(s) sad, scared or angry', but may object because it is merely wrong. Revisionism is a good example.

For the most part we don’t want to know about Reality with a capital R. We want to live in our personal little 'dream world,' where someone else is supposed to take of it all. And if something goes wrong, someone else will be there to tell us it was not our fault.
Quite possibly you are talking about your own personal experience here and certainly the experience of a lot of die-hard premies who want the mythological master to make everything right. Who are you referring to here as 'we'? I think it is fair to say that all the posters on the forum are very interested in reality with a capital 'R'.

We are all form junkies conditioned to believe that someone other than us is going to ensure that our life is happy. A form could be a guru, a concept or belief system, the cavalry. Form junkies are prisoners of hope. Hope is the belief that some source external to ourselves is going to save our ass, so we can live happily after. Hope keeps all the suffering in place. Hopelessness is finding out that it is all up to you. We are asking form to do something that it simply can’t deliver. But nobody wants to know that.
You are speaking nonsense by preaching to the converted. Even Maharaji himself never instructed his followers to believe that they didn't have a personal role in their own happiness. And since when is finding out that it is up to us equated with hopelessness????

So our happiness is not dependent on form – on something external. And when the form (Maharaji, God, Santa Claus, our wife, husband) doesn’t bring us happiness, then we start blaming and running a victim story. IMO that’s what is going on this site. People running non-stop victim stories. If a train hits you, you can blame the train, but remember you're the asshole who put yourself on the track.
Talk about erroneous perception, mixed metaphors and twisting words to make no sense. It was the 'conductor' who told us get on the track. Drilled it into us, screamed and yelled at us, told us in many ways that if we followed his track, we had our ticket to heaven, and if we got off-track we would break into a million pieces. We were supposedly on the train, not walking like a hobo down the track. To suggest we cannot hold maharaji responsible for holding us hostage to his wonky vision of bringing peace on earth as sincere, young seekers of 'truth' is untenable. We all know the conditioning that went into this.

In summary, what happens in our life doesn’t make us crazy. It’s the decisions we make about what happened to us, that makes us crazy. Our concepts! It’s our our conditioning, it's our concepts that run our life. Maharaji said a long time ago that Knowledge is a “concept bomb.” So please get bombing and stop whining. Stop pissing your life away.
So Dupedy Dog thinks we are all here just whining and pissing our lives away. Show us what you mean, Dupe. What I see are people taking a principled stand against being used as pawns in m's money pit and devotion scam. People shedding all the concepts that m loaded onto us - we didn't make this shit up.

We use one another to play parts in each other’s soap opera. What a waste of time! But nobody wants to know that.
How about reality with a capital 'R', Dog. How about integrity. How about justice, truth and responsibility. Or is this all 'Days of Our Lives' to you? How about getting up on your hind legs and making a principled and educated stand for once instead of just lifting 'em to piss all over yourself.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 23:06:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: There's no talking with Dog
Message:
Great post, Pullaver, but there's no way in the world you'll ever get Dog to reason with you properly. He can't get past new age rubber words and silly putty thinking. I know him, eh? He's a premie who never gave dick to Maharaji back in the day, probably because even then he couldn't, wouldn't follow straight english. Talking with him is a complete waste of time.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 22:56:56 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Palaver, I'll make this real simple for ya!
Message:
Cherish the Knowledge Maharaji has given you. And use it! Capiche? Take the Knowledge and run.

Maharaji promised people who received knowledge clarity and ralaxation and peace. That's it!

Knowledge puts you in touch with yourself. Use it to improve the quality of your life. Or, you can keep on whining.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 00:43:13 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Complete Lack of Integrity
Message:
Dear Mr. Dog:

Do you know why your post sucks? Because it doesn't respond to any of the points I raised in my response to your post. Instead you are giving me your prescription for life which we both know flies in the face of m's claim that k doesn't work without him. Presumably then you have been able to separate k from m. The title of my earlier post to you was 'fence-shitting'. Here you are telling me that I should take the knowledge and run and stop my and our collective 'whining' here on the forum. This is a very curious perspective you have. Maybe you should take a moment and visit The 14 Objections . This pretty much sums up why people are posting here, myself included. You don't think that there needs to be any people standing up and making a principled stand against the cheat, deceit and greed of the master who has given you your cherished knowledge. I think that Jim (above) is probably right. I don't think you gave m a dime personally. I think this whole thing has been a nice little new agey religion for you. I know that you have been around since the '70s. Did you live in an ashram, do any service, donate any money, actually make an effort to go see him other than when he came to your neck of the woods? I suspect you probably have taken 'knowledge' to heart as sincerely as you have taken maharaji. Get Real.
[ The 14 Objections ]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 08:23:43 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Dedication & Service
Message:
In other words Dog you were an armchair premie who showed as much commitment to m then as you show respect now to the ex's who actually sincerely paid attention and as a result come here to purge and heal, expose the cheat and deceit, and to socialize. How galling it is to be criticized by someone who is undoubtedly patting himself on the back for his lack of involvement and now airily passing judgement on those of us that did.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 23:29:45 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Re: Dedication & Service
Message:
In other words Dog you were an armchair premie who showed as much commitment to m then as you show respect now to the ex's who actually sincerely paid attention and as a result come here to purge and heal, expose the cheat and deceit, and to socialize. How galling it is to be criticized by someone who is undoubtedly patting himself on the back for his lack of involvement and now airily passing judgement on those of us that did.


---

Pull,

True, I was an armchair premie who chose not to get involved in the bullshit politics of DLM. I am however committed to the experience of raj yoga and I defend that experience here with monotonous regularity. I consider that service to God.

You feel you were ripped off and are obviously hurting. Excuse my insensitivity. All I'm saying here is you had a hand in what happened. You should have listened to your heart instead to DLM honchos. It was you who put yourself on the railroad track when the train came by. When you blame others you give away your power.

Purge and heal, then get on with your life. Godspeed.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 01:19:39 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: More revisionist crapola
Message:
Dog, if you're gonna reply to my posts then at least address what I am saying. Which post of mine are you responding to here? Please point to what I might have said that makes you think I am just playing the "blame game" here?

You sound like m (and making just about the same amount of non-sense) blaming the mahatmas and organizers for the 'bullshit'. More revisionist, responsibility avoiding crap. I am not blaming the 'DLM' honchos as you put it, I am one of many here who are pointing out m's hypocrisy, greed, cheat, deceit, conceit, lack of responsibility, etc. because that is what people who have learned from their involvement, have principles and aspire to integrity do.

So let me get this straight. You are posting here to demonstrate your commitment to raj yoga and consider that your service to God. I'm sure God is very proud of you dog and grateful too. Looky here, what about having a look at that 14 objections page like I suggested in an earlier post and then come back here and try saying something intelligent. Instead of pointing fingers while your thumbs are stuck in your ears.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 03:56:36 (EST)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: another premie wanker
Message:
This Dog person is clearly only interested in 'his own experience'. He may or may not like m, but in effect he is a premie with the usual narcissistic attitude and is unable to discuss real human issues.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:27:05 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Brilliant, Pullaver. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:57:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: You have no idea how true that is
Message:
Pullaver,

Dog never gave NOTHING. Ask him.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 04:28:27 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Well said Puallaver, Peg, Mirror
Message:
I think you have met your match, Dog, in these wonderful new ex-premies. I also think that you have realized, as Pullaver said, that you don't need Rev Rawat to intercede for you and simply have to admit that to yourself.

Pullaver and I and quite a few new exes still enjoy meditating but don't wish to be associated with Rawat for reasons that have been well documented. We have not been whining, as you so insultingly say, but documenting why we have left Rawat. Capiche?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 09:35:42 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PatC - IMO if we are going to survive...
Message:
...human beings will need to get in contact with their higher power, call it what you will.

I don't care how people do it: psychoanalysis, NLP, the Forum, reiki, yoga, prayer, vipassana, TM, jogging, Pilates, karma yoga, Rolfing, Scientology, mantra, t'ai chi, raj yoga, spinach therapy, jogging on hot coals, nude volleyball, whatever turns you on.

I have no vested interest in what people do to open to their higher power, I only know that if we don't, we are fucked. If we don't, we will become another evolutionary cul de sac, a failed mutation, like 90% of all the life forms that have become extinct on this planet.

If we want to survive we need to get connected and centered, and I don't care how.

I apologize for using the word whining earlier. This site documents well why people have left Rawat. As I've said before, I'm glad the site is here so premies can get the full story. There is a lot of good-natured socializing going on here, and some whining.

It's just that I’ve heard a lot of whining lately from friends and family and am particularly sensitive to it. Mr. Paul Lever however does sound like he’s whining, and that’s his prerogative. To him I say 'Shit or get off the pot.' Life is passing you by.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:33:12 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Show me
Message:
I apologize for using the word whining earlier ... Mr. Paul Lever however does sound like he’s whining, and that’s his prerogative. To him I say 'Shit or get off the pot.'

Whining? Where have I been whining, Dog? Put up or shut up.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:31:02 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Dog, most of us are connected to our higher power
Message:
It's called the intellect and most of us also realize that what the world needs now is love sweet love, love of mankind, not love of an immoral guru.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 18:01:36 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Dog, most of us are connected
Message:
It's called the intellect and most of us also realize that what the world needs now is love sweet love, love of mankind, not love of an immoral guru.


---

To love onself is the beginning of a life-long romance.
-- Oscar Wilde

(One's true Self)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 19:41:07 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: One's true Self
Message:
Dog, you're talking to someone who has practiced the techs for 30 years and enjoyed the feeling that I get from it. I just don't like to use other peoples' words to explain or describe it especially cult cliches or New Age platitudes.

One of the reasons I left was because I seemed to enjoy meditation more than most premies and preferred K to M. For PWKs it's the other way around. They get high off videos. Did you ever watch the Atlanta Training video? What did you think?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 23:02:48 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Atlanta Training video
Message:
Saw the video and it made me sick. I walked out.
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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 04:47:23 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I thought you may have
Message:
Dog, I'm glad to hear that you have a conscience. Good for you.

Now, if you really want to propagate Raj Yoga, just do it sweetly without telling us that we are whiners and insulting us and try to use your own heartfelt words instead of moldy old cliches.

I'll listen because it is a topic I never tire of. I've enjoyed it for 30 years ever since I decided I wanted the bliss that I had on acid. So, I'm on your team.

Like you, I was an armchair premie who never trusted the cult. It took me 27 years to figure out that it was Rawat that I should not have trusted. The cult is his creation. The DLM/EV honchos are his favorites. They are a reflection of his warped personality.

You don't have to defend him just because you enjoy a yoga that is thousands of years older than him and understood and taught much better by others.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:00:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Leave evolution out of it, please
Message:
...human beings will need to get in contact with their higher power, call it what you will.

I don't care how people do it: psychoanalysis, NLP, the Forum, reiki, yoga, prayer, vipassana, TM, jogging, Pilates, karma yoga, Rolfing, Scientology, mantra, t'ai chi, raj yoga, spinach therapy, jogging on hot coals, nude volleyball, whatever turns you on.

I have no vested interest in what people do to open to their higher power, I only know that if we don't, we are fucked. If we don't, we will become another evolutionary cul de sac, a failed mutation, like 90% of all the life forms that have become extinct on this planet.

If we want to survive we need to get connected and centered, and I don't care how.

I apologize for using the word whining earlier. This site documents well why people have left Rawat. As I've said before, I'm glad the site is here so premies can get the full story. There is a lot of good-natured socializing going on here, and some whining.

It's just that I’ve heard a lot of whining lately from friends and family and am particularly sensitive to it. Mr. Paul Lever however does sound like he’s whining, and that’s his prerogative. To him I say 'Shit or get off the pot.' Life is passing you by.


---

You can enjoy all the mixed-up mumbo jumbo you want, Dog, a veritable Dog's Breakfast, you could say, but leave evolution out of it. You obviously don't understand dick about it and don't care to either. Please, keep talking about Scientology and the like. They deserve your acclaim. Evolution's for people who really want to understand life not just dream about it.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:14:05 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'll talk about evolution if I want!
Message:
Evolution's for people who really want to understand life not just dream about it.

What? I don't understand evolution? And you are now telling me what I can and can not say! Jim, back in the day I was considered an ex because I said what I wanted to say, and I didn't buy all the bullshit surrounding K. And I always loved the experience.

Could you see, just for a moment, that in the silence of meditation, when the internal dialog stops, when all the conditioning has been transcended, that maybe, just maybe, that is understanding life! You know become as a little child, the still waters!

Or is 'the true understanding of life' to be found in words and concepts?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:11:42 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Dog food
Message:
Dog, even if you get to Mohammed's seventh heaven during meditation, you DO NOT transcend 'conditioning.' To think otherwise is willful self-deception.

So do you consider yourself again to tbe a 'premie?' The conditioning runs deep, doesn't it?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 23:41:27 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Dog food
Message:
Dog, even if you get to Mohammed's seventh heaven during meditation, you DO NOT transcend 'conditioning.' To think otherwise is willful self-deception.

So do you consider yourself again to tbe a 'premie?' The conditioning runs deep, doesn't it?


---

gerry,

We can transcend our mental conditioning but only for a while, then we come back down. I don't know anyone who is permanently in a state of transcendence. I don't think I'd like that. Sounds too much like a labotomy. It's a dance.

I will hopefully always consider myself a premie. All it means is 'lover of truth.' I does not mean love of Elan Vital, Maharaji or anything else.

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 04:56:20 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Yes, Premie means lover.........
Message:
......but Rawat never meant it to mean ''lover of truth'' as you say. Anyone who watched him lie about his history in the Atlanta video knows that he is not lover of truth. He just wanted us to love him and show it with material goods and money and rock-star adulation.

I'm glad that you are a lover of truth. Now could you tell me truthfully - don't you think Rawat has done a disservice to Raj Yoga and has ruined any chance of spreading it in the west?

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Date: Fri, Jan 11, 2002 at 13:47:57 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Yes, Premie means lover...
Message:
......but Rawat never meant it to mean ''lover of truth'' as you say. Anyone who watched him lie about his history in the Atlanta video knows that he is not lover of truth. He just wanted us to love him and show it with material goods and money and rock-star adulation.

I'm glad that you are a lover of truth. Now could you tell me truthfully - don't you think Rawat has done a disservice to Raj Yoga and has ruined any chance of spreading it in the west?


---

No, I don't think he's done a disservice to Raj Yoga. I don't think the bakti spin did him much good. There are plenty of other gurus and organizations out there, the Self Realization Fellowship for one. Yoga, TM, t'ai chi etc. are well known now.

As for spreading it in the west goes I don't think generation Xers are interested. They are like our parents and more interested in careers and mortgages.

Do you see any interest in spirituality in your community?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:21:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Yes, words and concepts
Message:
Understanding is by definition an act of congnition. You're so far from the proper use of the english language you can't remember when you used it properly but yeah, words and concepts. You bet. Otherwise, take any nice feeling, imprint it with your favorite religious ideas, no matter how specific, no matter how vague, and call it 'understanding'. Trouble is, it isn't.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:47:28 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: wow!! good and honest feedback
Message:
Dog, what have you got to say about his post?
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 10:25:51 (EST)
From: church lady
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: well isn't that Special!
Message:
Now that's just great!

After preaching for decades about how m and k is the answer, and is the ONLY way to true happiness, we come to understand that it isn't.

I guess I was just confused, and didn't have THAT clarity for all those years.
It certainly was wise of our master to not allow us to speak about knowledge anymore, as we might have said something contradictory or misleading.

The reason premies are not allowed to talk about k is because they might accidentlly tell the truth aobut it.

It takes a true master to lie in the approved way.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:43:42 (EST)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: church lady
Subject: Re: well isn't that Special!
Message:

Now that's just great!

After preaching for decades about how m and k is the answer, and is the ONLY way to true happiness, we come to understand that it isn't.


---

Exactly!! You must admire the genius though to put it together...
He often pointed out in his sermons: 'it is natural for a human being to strive for happiness...'. This point is totally valid. Very good point, very true.
However he forgets to include that life comprises the entire spectrum of all experiences, including suffering/pain/pulling your hairs out. We readily accept joy and we easily reject pain. To take advantage of that natural mechanism is very clever to say the least. Clever because most of us came to k at an age that we still believed we could have one without the other. We truly believed that joy could be had permanently, always available to tap into.

A real teacher points out that the one doesn't come without the other. A true teacher compassionately suffers along with his students, and simply points to the inevitable as being the true 'leela' or play. A teacher that is true to his students doesn't take advantage of their ignorant hearts that still believe in joy without pain.

Very abusive, but also very clever.

Maha mind.

(But of course, he doesn't realize yet that he can't have one without the other either...)

Mirror

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 10:21:48 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Happiness IS a result
Message:
Nobody's just happy, Peg. Something happens in people's lives that makes them happy. The sales pitch of Maharaji that happiness is within you, subsisting on it's own, and he's got the magic key to open the door to it is bull. At least, it never worked that way for me.

I suppose it works that way for you, huh.

Right.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:50:44 (EST)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry!
Message:
Why did you think I was a premie?
Was it the use of 'share' and 'magic'?

I must improve my ex-premie jargon...How about this;

RAWAT IS A GREASY DISHONEST MANIPULATIVE LARDYCAKE

See NOT a premie.

Peg

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 15:24:28 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Sorry, Peg
Message:
I don't check into the forum as much as I once did so I'm losing track of who's who. I did hesitate, though, before I posted; I wasn't sure if I was addressing a premie or not. The post did have am aura of sarcasm to it. I guess I should have followed my instincts on it. Again, apologies.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 13:49:24 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: quack quack ... ooops
Message:
er, 'scuse me for pointing this out, Jerry, but I don't think you got the gist of Peg's meaning when she quoted that Google page

It's obviously an abbreviated quote (which doesn't seem to exist on the Elan Vital website anymore) and would surely have continued along the lines of '... happiness is not a result - of following your mind ... (or whatever the current 'negative' buzz-word/phrase is in the Maha camp).

What I don't get, Jerry, is how you seem to think Peg was being pro-Maharaji by posting that? And I also don't get why you title your post 'Happiness IS a result'.

Maybe it's just my IQ getting in the way.

Not yours, I hope.

;)

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 18:19:38 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Maharaji's happy little fucking world
Message:
Hi, cq,

I've been out of circulation for awhile and I wondered if Peg was or wasn't being pro-Maharaji by quoting him. Guess I was wrong by opting that she was.

I was, wasn't I? Wrong, that is.

Maharaji's message has always been that happiness is a state of being, not a consequence. What I take that to mean is that you don't have to do anything to be happy besides breathe. Or so the master would have us believe. What's your take on it?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 12:59:43 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My take on it?
Message:
My take on it?

Frankly, I'm amazed that someone who has gotten as filthy rich as the Maha, who lives the life of Reilly in a multi-million $ mansion, with every conceivable luxury that the planet can offer - I'm amazed that someone like that has the audacity, the complete lack of awareness and quite simply the sheer bad taste to suggest that the only thing the suffering and starving millions need in order to be happy is to breathe.

It shows a quite astounding lack of insight into the real problems that people have.

And coming from a spoiled brat like him … well, words almost fail me.

Let's see how happy he'd be if he had his luxury lifestyle taken away from him!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:13:05 (EST)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My take on it
Message:
Hey Jerry,

My take on the happiness thing is that it is both. I have found that it is possible (and a bit challenging) to generate happiness within myself independent of circumstances, mostly by what I focus on, which sometimes includes awareness of my breathing and my life, though in a different way than taught by M. This has been quite real and necessary for me because I've had long periods of pain and illness and sometimes other hardships which are intrinsically, situationally depressing, and it has inspired me to learn to flex my inner mood muscles. Still working on it, but it is essential and important for me (although absolutely nothing to do with MJ, whom I left 17 years ago).

It's much easier to be happy when things are going right, however. And the fact that MJ talks about his trip helping you to develop that independent inner happiness is very weird, considering that he obviously doesn't have the ability himself. He clearly has tantrums (tantrum yoga) when things go wrong, and medicates himself with alcohol and super-materialism to keep his happiness.

Sometimes it amazes me that I followed him for 12 years knowing this (but not the details) in the back of my mind.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 13:52:58 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: aha - here's the full quote -
Message:
'Maharaji shares a simple yet profound message with those who wish to hear it: happiness is not a result of circumstances in one's life, but is available because one has life'.

Now for the big question.

What the hell's that supposed to mean?

Answer - whatever you want it to mean.

(Thinks - wasn't that always the trip with M's supposed attempts at wisdom?)

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 21:16:49 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Maharaji Monologues: Flip Flop & Fly
Message:
It wasn't that long ago that the all-knowing, (Not-A-Leaf-Moves) divine Mr. M. was exhorting his followers to stand up and be counted by opposing his detractors. Listening to his slightest whisper along comes Mr. Glasser, It Ain't So, PleaseConsiderThis, Citizens Against Cyberstalking (CAC), Stop On-line Stalking (SOS), Right2Hate, HaltOn-LineAbuse and various and sundry spinners and spammers to the forum. Several months later they are all deflated, defeated, dispatched to the cyber graveyard, each one (thanks to the work of Jim, Joe, Marianne et al). Now the Master says to his faithful flock, best to ignore 'em, leave 'em be. Oh well, it's a master's prerogative to change his mind.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 07:18:58 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: He doesn't have the decency
Message:
to set the record straight and address the many people whose lives he has disaffected over the years.

He could use the internet to do so yet he chooses instead to scurry off into some secret corner with his dwindling band of faithful out of the light of the internet.

It must be very uncomfortable out here on the net for him where he cannot control the flow of information about himself and the cult.

So he avoids the issue, just like any good dysfunctional and irresponsible person would.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 13:17:53 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Who's in charge?
Message:
Deny, Deny, Deny. Avoid responsiblity at all costs. Spin, revise and let others take the blame. Create the appearance of an arms-length distance so that when plans or directives inevitably go awry he can claim ignorance or pin it on the organizers. Now that EV has been reined in due to declining revenues he will find it more and more difficult to hide. The noose narrows . . .
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:03:17 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pullaver
Subject: Who's in charge? this Forum and EPO apparently
Message:
or, as the old saying goes, 'the proof is in the pudding'.

Here's the view from a distance:

Premies interact with exes. Result? Lots more exes.

Lots more exes mean a lot less premies.

A lot less premies mean a lot less income (by fair means or foul) for the Maha.

Therefore M forbids premies to have contact with exes -

Result - premies stop questioning their involvement, stop leaving, and continue financing M's little 'lila'.

... and continue wasting their time and energy on fuelling the obscenely opulent lifestyle of the (former - or should that be 'once and future'?) fake Messiah.

He's trying to cut his losses is all.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 20:56:12 (EST)
From: Contest:
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Best plans for Amaroo sell-off:
Message:
It would be interesting to compile a list of the best possible ideas for the amaroo property, if it is sold off.

What do YOU think it's best use might be?

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:56:31 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Contest:
Subject: Burial Plots?
Message:
The australian band called Catweasel can play thier druggy music in the knowledge hall and Derek can dance while taking the drug ecxtasy.
He can hallucinate how glorious it really is to be feeling his breath
and thinking {this is the it! this is the it!}
If everyone would just come to this recognition then the world as it should be WOULD BE.

I also think it should be a graveyard.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 17:10:42 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: Burial Plots?
Message:
No Bill, I disagree. It would be a waste of land.

Give it back to wildlife, IMO. Let it the flora and fauna flourish--certainly Maharaji hasn't. :)

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 15:50:15 (EST)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Contest:
Subject: A cult awareness foundation [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 12:08:35 (EST)
From: jonathan
Email: jmc@peterson-ae.com
To: Contest:
Subject: Re: Best plans for Amaroo sell-off:
Message:
For deposed cult leaders: an Alcatraz for imprisoned ex-cult leaders, who, by tax evasion, fraud, committing fellonious acts, is forced to do prison time.

For former cult members: a tourist destination where ex-cult members can bask in the warm sunlight of reason, monitor their ex-cult leader's daily chores, and enjoy a nice vacation spot.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 10:53:43 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Contest:
Subject: Re: Best plans for Amaroo sell-off:
Message:
Lock Maharaji, Marolyn, the kids and Monica, Raja Ji in, with no servants or help, no booze, cigs or other drugs of choice, throw away the key and let them live off the land. No designer clothes, sunglasses or gourmet food served on silver trays. Put in video monitoring cams and broadcast their real behavior on satellite feeds.

Might be entertaining. How long do you think any of them would last before turning into simpering idiots?

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:26:24 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Err, Vicki, don't you think...
Message:
that they are already SIMPERING IDIOTS? LOLOL!

They can have some sunscreen, but that's it.

You're funny...

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 04:24:21 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Contest:
Subject: Impoundement lot, rehab facility for pedophiles
Message:
Yep, and let's give them something to do that's worthwhile while they're there. Have the pedophiles:

Make children's clothes and shoes.
Grow, package and ship organic baby food for 3rd world children.
Manufacture fertilizer
Manufacture bricks
Grind, bag and ship cement
Make children's beds, desks, chairs

You get the idea.

Put an electrified fence around the whole property, jam in all the perverts, make Maharaji and those in EV involved in the cover up of Jagedo live there year round to manage the place.
Attendance at nightly, 2 hour minimum discourses from the Master-Mandatory!

Admission physical to include estrogen implant and 15 minute surgical procedure, castration.

Minimum lenght of stay- 50 years

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 14:40:58 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Impoundement lot, rehab facility for pedophiles
Message:
I have to disagree, Tonette. The pedophiles would enjoy making children's clothes, shoes, and baby food, etc. They'd (excuse me) get off on it.

They belong in a regular maximum security prison.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 02:16:38 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hey Cynthia, OT
Message:
You okay? Of course pediophiles belong in prison. I was just goofing around, well maybe the estrogen is a good idea for men that like to rape little girls.
Anyway, your reply seemed a little heavy to me and I want to know that you are okay. I guess the subject matter is not one that would elicit any levity, in any way, shape, or form and making scarcastic angry comments about it is in bad taste.
I am a real sap for children. I've never met one that I didn't love in one way or another. I have a hard time taking care of children when I have to as a nurse because I find it difficult to control my emotions and be objective. When they come to me it usually ain't good news.
Anyway, I need to stop thinking about this, as it is bumming me out. I did print your post below about what the Vatican decreeded to give to my Catholic friend. I want her to ask her priest about it.
Stay warm. Vermont is a beautiful state.
Hey, if you're ever in Washington DC would you come by for a visit so we could meet?

Love, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:46:05 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Hi Tonette (OT)
Message:
I'm fine. The only difficulty I have is joking about pedophiles, that's all. It's a result of my own personal history.

I'd love to meet you Tonette. No plans for WDC in the near future, but who knows?

Actually, today, it's 40 degs. and rainy. But we have loads of snow and the temp is going to go back down. I live in a snow belt, so it usually snows every day, even when the sun is out sometimes.

Not to worry, I'm fine. I am a bit sick with a cold, but otherwise, doing well.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 10:34:30 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Leave those kangurus alone
Message:
and don't send them paedophiles

Jean-Michel, caring for wildlife.

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 10:47:33 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: We can not cure pedophiles
Message:
But we can dimish their urge. Nope, there's not a cure for these human defects. But studies have shown that hormones and elimination of Testosterone can work wonders. As for the kangaroos, they will be safe. Don't worry.
Studies have also shown that animals prefer to mate with their own species and remember, Kangaroos can deliver one hell of a kick, can defend themselves if 'something' tries a perverted act, unlike little girls or boys.
Maybe a kangaroo or two could be trained as part of the rehab program.

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 06:58:24 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: A Betty Ford clinic for alcohol and drug rehab [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 23:36:09 (EST)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Contest:
Subject: a premie homesite and cemetary?
Message:
sell premies lots to build homes on, and set aside one area as a cemetary for the inevitable. once there are enough homes built, incorporate it as a town and collect property taxes, sell the utilities like electricity and water to residents, designate some zones for commercial enterprises like markets, clothiers, chiropractic, etc. all premie membership.

David Roupell's proposition, resurrected. A gated security community.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 22:09:06 (EST)
From: Inside Edition
Email: None
To: Contest:
Subject: Rabbit Sanctuary
Message:
The entire Holy Family can do service there, as payback for all of the bunnies that the Captain blew away during target practice.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 14:23:06 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Inside Edition
Subject: LOL
Message:
Run rabbit, run rabbit run run run.

They could all be dressed in little outfits, like in the Beatrice Potter books.

Anth the cuddly bunny.

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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 21:26:08 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Contest:
Subject: Mini-Golf & the Mini-me's
Message:
Amaroonian Miniature Golf (and mini-bar). The only obstacle on the course is Maharaji himself.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 21:18:18 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Contest:
Subject: give it to children
Message:
I think they shoud donate the whole thing to a child abuse charity.
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Date: Tues, Jan 08, 2002 at 21:20:42 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: M there in April
Message:
My father tells me M is due at Amaroo in April. Wonder if he'll talk to me this time? And if he met my father again, what would he say?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 10, 2002 at 11:10:25 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: I wish I knew you a little better.
Message:
But please don't go to Amaroo without initially inserting yourself incognito. Dye your hair or something!
I have faith and hope that you WILL get restituiton someday, maybe soon, from what Maharaji has done to you and your family. Your courage and honesty has been the cause of real damage to Maharaji both financially, egotistically and perhaps emotionally. I applaude you. I would never have the energy and stamina to weather what you have done and are doing.
But you need to realize, and I am not being paranoid here, there are alot of zealots in Maharaji's cult. You are a cause for them to hate you and your inconsequential rape that happened oh so many years ago.
I wonder if going to Amaroo, openly is safe.
If you need to go, I want you to at least consider this side of it.
I'm sorry that I sound like some sort of preacher, a mother, but this is a forum, your posts are public, and I know there are many nasty facets of human beings. Knowledge does not exempt you from being a victim of it. As you well know.
Oh if you go, please be so careful.
I wish you wouldn't go. Delegate it. At the very least take a very large man with you.

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 16:57:58 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: why go? [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 20:01:48 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Re: why go?
Message:
oh just to ask a few questions. But maybe someone else can do that for me now.
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Date: Wed, Jan 09, 2002 at 22:28:02 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: why go?
Message:
Abi,

Please be careful. Don't walk alone in that lion's den. I hate to denegrate lions, but at the moment I can't think of anything better.

Don't give maharaji and the rest the chance to hurt you ever again.

Cynthia, the worry wart...

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