Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Dec 02, 2001 To: Dec 08, 2001 Page: 2 of: 5


Moley and Nige -:- So which festivals were you at? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:52:42 (EST)
__ Bryn -:- Pontryfendagai? and Harrogate field! -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:30:37 (EST)
__ __ Lesley -:- Re: Pontriddythingummy -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:09:35 (EST)
__ such -:- Strawberry Fields: Toronto, 1970 -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:00:34 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Regional Retreat in the Poconos??? -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:49:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Poconose Retreat -:- homemade tape -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 13:48:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Suzanne -:- Maharaji's Poconos bitch fest -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:23:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Maharaji's Poconos bitch fest -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:12:12 (EST)
__ Richard -:- Re: festivals -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 19:22:42 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Does GBBF count? -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:13:21 (EST)
__ Joe -:- First and Last -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:33:58 (EST)
__ __ Joy -:- Walking Out -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 07:09:48 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: First and Last -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:09:51 (EST)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Millenium was your Last? -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 20:54:12 (EST)
__ Ulf -:- festivals list -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:09:36 (EST)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: So which festivals were you at? -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:16:55 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Best Festivals. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:05:02 (EST)
__ Tonette -:- One too many. nt -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 02:49:27 (EST)
__ __ berni -:- too many too many too -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:20:48 (EST)
__ __ __ berni -:- Vunderfull Copehhagen -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:20:49 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Do one night stands count? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:54:11 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- First and Last -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:02:33 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Oops! Forgot Oakland 98 -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:57:12 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Foggy Memories.... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:20:37 (EST)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Gawd - I forgot about chit chat -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 21:12:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Gawd - I forgot about chit chat -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:15:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Me too.. I forgot about chit chat -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:55:41 (EST)
__ __ Tonette -:- To Pat Conlon OT to above thread -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 03:46:02 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- To Tonette... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:04:17 (EST)
__ __ __ Barbara -:- Hey, Tonette -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:36:21 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I don't understand, Tonette -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 04:46:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- PS Okay, I read your other posts... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:29:03 (EST)
__ __ Loaf -:- Fossils... its the new stuff that counts ! -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 02:59:49 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Fossils... its the new stuff that counts ! -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:57:38 (EST)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- by his grace -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:30:41 (EST)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:28:19 (EST)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Fossils! Thanks for nothing -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 04:58:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Loaf the overgrown chicken -:- Re: Fossils! Thanks for nothing -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:27:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- No shame in being suckered into cult??? -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 21:00:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- None at all -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:11:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- I DIDN'T say I was GUILTY -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:44:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ wolfie -:- no creditcards accepted -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:39:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- influences... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 13:15:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- M is the baby, the bathwater is the Cult -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:42:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: M is the baby, the bathwater is the Cult -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:50:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Who are what was the plug, Grasshopper? -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:09:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- PS Should be Who or what... -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:17:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: PS Should be Who or what... -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:48:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Maha is 5 yrs. older than you -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:13:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- It is the plug of faith Pat [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:13:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- No Grasshopper, nor is it a buttplug -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:23:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- You speak wise words oh Patanand [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:31:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ berni -:- Re: influences... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:36:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- thanks bernie -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:57:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean Valjean -:- R -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:18:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Victor -:- now Jean [nt] -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 10:34:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hello, Jean... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:44:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- welcome jean.. and thankyou -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:56:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ berni -:- never really 'sold out'.. I bought in -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:11:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: never really 'sold out'.. I bought in -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:18:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- At least some of our bliss... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:07:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: At least some of our bliss... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:44:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I understand, Loafie -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:27:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loafie -:- whats a kvetch ?? -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:34:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- It's what yentas do -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:58:25 (EST)
__ Joe -:- British Premies at Kissimee -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:39:44 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- Re: British Premies at Kissimee -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:16:45 (EST)
__ __ __ SULLA -:- What a smell for business! -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 12:36:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: What a smell for business! -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 17:56:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Prostitution/Drugs at Kissimee -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:22:41 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Sulla -:- Re: Prostitution/Drugs at Kissimee -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 13:20:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Whoa, Sulla -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:45:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Re: Prostitution/Drugs at Kissimee -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:37:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Barbara -:- 'Stealing at the 7-11' -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:29:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Christ...Was I Naive... [nt] -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:26:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Cynthia, please... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:31:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Christ I am gullible.... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:40:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- LOL...I hear ya [nt] -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:30:28 (EST)
__ __ Moley -:- British Premies at Kissimee nightmare -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 09:21:44 (EST)
__ __ __ wolfie -:- dancing all night long -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:46:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ such -:- r.e. costumes -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:09:06 (EST)
__ __ Pullaver -:- Kissimmee -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 22:17:38 (EST)
__ Joe -:- Come on , you can do it... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 18:34:44 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- Hmm... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 18:55:44 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- That's funny Nigel. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:07:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ berni -:- Re: That's funny Nigel. :LOL -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:40:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Moley -:- Christ - did he want to get into my knickers?? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:01:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Loss of Memory -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:55:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Vicki -:- Re: Loss of Memory -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 10:06:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'd forgotten about the Pasadena dos -:- Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 13:30:57 (EST)

Joe -:- What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:29:20 (EST)
__ sulla -:- Re: What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:01:20 (EST)
__ __ Sulla -:- The breath and the swing -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:08:45 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Vital organs vs. Elan Vital organs -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:22:29 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- 'Elan Vital' -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:58:16 (EST)
__ __ __ McDuck -:- Re: 'Elan Vital' -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:25:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Right -- see Nigel's post (above) nt -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:32:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ McDuck -:- Silly me NT -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 19:08:18 (EST)
__ Pullaver -:- The Oracle and Forrest Gump -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:35 (EST)
__ RichMandrake -:- Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey.. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 18:24:00 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Jack Handey was Al Franken -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:50:26 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Just for fun, my analysis -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:46:34 (EST)
__ Andrea Eriksonn -:- Joe, it's so EASY to understand... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:17:23 (EST)
__ __ Andrew Davidson -:- $$$ BEST OF FORUM $$$ [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 21:53:28 (EST)
__ Joy -:- M doesn't actually say anything -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:09:45 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Well done, Joy and (OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:48:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:56:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Re: Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 23:48:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Ken Campbell -:- Re: Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:32:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Course you can come, Barbara... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:56:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Re: Course you can come, Barbara... -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:45:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That would be SO COOL -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:21:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Yes, indeedy -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:32:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: Twixt Scotland and London... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:02:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Flags at half-mast..? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:59:11 (EST)
__ __ Nigel -:- Excellent post, Joy -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:23:26 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:50:13 (EST)
__ __ such -:- what pajamas? hohoho [nt] -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:19 (EST)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- It's not, Oh well , there goes that concept nt -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:58:48 (EST)
__ __ Joe -:- Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:05:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Yoko -:- Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:38:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- That could be a rap song. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:18:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ berni -:- Re: That could be a rap song. -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:47:50 (EST)
__ Nigel -:- Great post, Joe.. -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:45:00 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- How to Listen to Satsang... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:49:01 (EST)

Rick -:- White Boy Goes Taliban (OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:38:58 (EST)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:11:02 (EST)
__ __ Barbara -:- Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT) -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 03:33:52 (EST)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT) -:- Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:11:39 (EST)
__ Gregg -:- Not totally OT... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:32:35 (EST)
__ __ such -:- yep,he went whole-hog gung-ho WPC -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:02:29 (EST)

gerry -:- 'IT' is coming (not OT) -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:32:05 (EST)
__ salam -:- is that it? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 20:00:23 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Sounds Spendeeeeey, -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:48:02 (EST)
__ __ gerry -:- Re: Sounds Spendeeeeey, -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 20:15:31 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Lots of bells and whistles -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:36:08 (EST)
__ such -:- does it come with da Ginzu steak knives? -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:48:05 (EST)

don -:- miami event -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:27:58 (EST)
__ Brian Smith -:- Translation -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:53:45 (EST)
__ PatC -:- Re: miami event -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:41:37 (EST)

Abi -:- virus alert -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:44:13 (EST)
__ Chuck S. -:- The 'Pentagone' virus... -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:35:30 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: virus alert -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:46:36 (EST)
__ __ cq -:- It ain't Badtrans, John -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:32:25 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- You're probably right -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:45:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- yes, it's the goner virus right -:- Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:45:24 (EST)


Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:52:42 (EST)
From: Moley and Nige
Email: Moley@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: So which festivals were you at?
Message:
Nige: Was Jim at Kissimee? Was Joe at Rome, '78? Was Joy at Malaga.? Was Katie at Houston? Was brother CD at Lingfield racecourse, '79? Did your lives change for the better? Did you see more Light from thereonin? Garner more understanding?

Were you a scummy pleb in the crowd like me or, dare I suggest, in some cases, even spouting from the stage - heaven forbid? (Mike, Mike or Mike..?) Or maybe playing in the band? (Hi Fran!)

We just thought it interesting to find out who was where in which year. Which fire and brimstone or devotional bollocks did you submit your impressionable young minds to?

And did we perchance unknowingly meet up in the granola queue? (whilst summoning up the inner courage to - under intruction - go begging other premies for our 'registration' cash? - now THERE'S a whole other thread..)

Moley: Talking of granola - I smuggled a suitcase full of the bloody stuff into the States for the 1979 Kissimmee extravaganza (no cash for food- as usual)... But I am getting ahead of myself... 'Events' I went to, in chronological order, with salient comments..

1977: March, Wembley,U.K. First time I saw the Godhead in the flesh. Sitting on a throne, above a mountain of flowers. Jesus, come again - or so I 'experienced' as a tender young aspirant. I've NO idea what the f**k he was talking about - but that was never the point (as Joe said it below!)

Bloody Hans Jayanti, Rome Nov 1977 - I've NO clue what Rome looks like... but have a dim memory of walking past seriously historic monuments, and ignoring them completely. 6 days on an ancient double-decker bus to get there and back.... all travellers semi-hysterical by end of journey.

Dortmund Sept 1978 - the biggy i.e. HOLY BREATH. 3 week old baby - sleeping in an army tent cos of lack of funds. Again - haven't a bloody clue what Rawat was talking about.

1979's a blur - some crap in Malaga involving water canons, and the infamous Lingfield race course - thick smog - premie marital arguments overheard from next tent... and

Kissimee Nov 79 - Rawat in BAD mood on first night... and me thinking 'bollocks, I've in ested me life-savings to comed here'... then Rawat on some primitive cart in Krishna costume.... Oh It's too painful to go on....

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:30:37 (EST)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: Pontryfendagai? and Harrogate field!
Message:
I tremble to remember the two above travesties! One was I think to celebrate Raja ji's birthday. At the other we queued to have darshan from a life-size photograph. I was that soldier.
love Bryn
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:09:35 (EST)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Bryn
Subject: Re: Pontriddythingummy
Message:
Was that the one in a field in Wales which Babagwanji turned up to instead, much to our disappointment.....I spent a lot of time digging up thistles with a kitchen knife.
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:00:34 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: Strawberry Fields: Toronto, 1970
Message:
500,000 people -- we totally Rocked!

er, maybe you mean one of dose guru puja [translation = guru worship] Nuremburg rally-style love-in fests.

so, kissimmee awweddy [smooch smooch] hehehe

Lessee: acted in a play, sang and was sitting on da stage at Millenium for 3 days in between David Anderson and Mike Nouri about 20 feet from the Lord of the Universe, performed at Orlando, made it to a bunch of Miami Jackie Gleason Convention center guru worship love-ins and spray-painting in the Orange Bowl, Hollywood, Philly [I skipped out as best man at my buddy's wedding - which, as a premie then, he understood], Oakland, bunch of Long Beach events, Tucson, Amherst [where I practically got kicked in the face by a chunky foot as it passed by on the back of a passing vehicle - that was the darshan line], and Kissimmee, etc. etc. etc. [+ traveled to see miragey at scores of programs over the years (too many to recount here or remember them all) + various big parties at the Malibu residence]

I remember quitting a band so I could make it to one festival, selling my awesome stereo to buy a ticket to another, accepting cash instead of car repairs for a car accident caused by a premie - so I could attend another fest, traveling to Tucson with a crazy lady in a VW van that had wheatgrass and sprouts growing on the floor, having my passport photo taken with a Krishna t-shirt on before Guru Puja in London, literally standing in the middle of the airport runway with my suitcase all night at Orlando - waiting for a chartered plane to show up, driving cross-country from LA to NY non-stop in 3.5 days with 3 other premies and a screaming lil kid named Jasmine - and then missing my flight to Europe, reeling in shock as marji gave his famous Long Beach drip shatsang about doubling and redoubling his millions again and again etc. - 'it's not easy to be rich', and programs like the inane 'dung beetle' shatsang at Pasadena, etc.

btw, When I got to Kissimmee, I took one look at the concentration - er refugee - camp facilities and hightailed it over to the nearest motel - where some premie brothers were kind enough to let me share the floor space with a bunch of other people for only $20-30. Then I met a really sweet sistah from Melbourne named Sharyn, and we 'shared' a lot and ____ed our brains out all week after each evening event. Boy, that was sure better than celibacy! (I almost moved to Melbourne afterwards to marry her, but thought it would keep me too far away from miragey, etc.)

I remember dancing late at night en masse with da Krisha marji at Kissimmee, Omassa giving some heavy scary satsang, and the countless raised arm sieg heils - er, bolie shri satrugu devs - shouted in allegiance and obedience to OMassa. Remember, this was only a year after the Jonestown cyanide koolaid incident -- and that night I kept thinking, 'Geez, if anyone else showed up here who wasn't a premie, they'd think we were in some kind of bloody crazed fascist cult!!'

hahaha

yes, dose memories... [oy vey, now you've triggered one of them flashbacks -- aiuto! caramba! sacre bleu! ouch!]

Peace and lentils,

PS speaking of flashbacks, some premies were pulling m. around on a chariot -- shades of Ben Hur or Caligula. "Luva me! Nuper ab bige transcursus sum." [trans.: "Help! I've just been run over by a chariot."]

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:49:21 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Regional Retreat in the Poconos???
Message:
Gee, Nigel and Moley,

This thread has awakened my foggy memory a lot! I've remembered so many more programs that I attended.

In the northeast, 1976? 77? we had a regional retreat that included Connecticut, Boston, Philly, New York City, all the upstate New York premies, and other smaller eastern communities. It was held on the campgrounds in western Pennsylvania--near Scranton--the Poconos.

Lots of initiators were there, it was a huge regional retreat. All of the famous local premie bands played (not our little Hartford one) and on the last day, on Sunday afternoon, Maharaji helicoptered right into the site with no notice. I remember all of sudden hearing those copter blades and the sun was in the western sky and as the copter got closer, it was a total blow out bliss-a-rama.

He came and gave satsang, blissed everyone out beyond the beyond as we used to say, and then left.

We were all packed up and ready to leave, I was still with my premie boyfriend at the time. On the way home we stopped at a restaurant and the waitress asked us if we were newlyweds (our shining eyes)LOLOL! (The Poconos area is/was a big honeymoon spot where they have champaign shaped tubs and heart shaped beds)!!! LOLOL My boyfriend abruptly said 'NO we're not married.'

I just remembered that retreat--a surprise visit from the Lerd.

The accommodations, btw, at the camp, were less than nice, dirty cots, etc.

Anyone remember that one?

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 13:48:56 (EST)
From: Poconose Retreat
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: homemade tape
Message:
of an orgasmic Indian Bai screaming as Humpty Dumbrowski Ji arrived in a helicopter...the tape then has fatso's satsang about the trouble he went thru getting there

There was another East Coast event the following year at same VENUE with the hope and rumor of an encore arrival of pimple puss. He was a no show but I remember we would be woke up each morning by a loud speaker saying 'Good Morning and welcome to another day in Guru Maharaj Ji's world'. My constantly yapping mind was quick to point out how this was like Orwell's 1984.

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:23:22 (EST)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Poconose Retreat
Subject: Maharaji's Poconos bitch fest
Message:
I wasn't at the Poconos, but it was 'phone fed' to the rest of the known world I think. Either that, or we heard a tape later.

Anyhow, Maharaji arrived, the premies swooned, and M proceeded to bitch about how difficult it was to get there, and about how he was told the ride from the airport would be 30 minutes but it was really 45. He was very put out. This is a clear example of how M could say anything and people who are predisposed to think he's God, would think it was great.

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:12:12 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Poconos bitch fest
Message:
I don't remember one word he said. I do remember saying how it did take him longer to get there.

Gee, 15 minutes late and he gets pissed off. Well, he has his VERY OWN helicopter now, and still he bitches...

What an idiot.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 19:22:42 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: Re: festivals
Message:
Festival Highlights

First: Guru Puja 1972 Montrose, Colorado
First time I saw the SatGuru (see link), first service -photographer, first darshan and holy breath -blew my freakin' mind. A truly lovely experience. It was transcendental, man.

Hans Jayanti 1972 Delhi - Jumbo D from New York. A personally transforming trip from the standpoint of seeing how the other 90% of the world lives.

Millennium 1973 Houston, Texas - much ado about nothing.

First US Holi 1974, Key Biscayne - Was photographer for Divine Times and sat on stage where I shot M with silly string and got so blasted I momentarily regressed to an infant in diapers. (I'm serious, I was thrown beyond the three worlds.)

Rome 1977 - I walked over to the Vatican and was standing outside St Peters. Everyone started looking at me, or so I thought. I turned around and they were really looking past me at the Pope who was on his balconey.

The Kissimmee festivals where I did Darshan Recovery. At the last one, I stood directly opposite M to help the big guys haul out the disambulatory premies. Quite a show. Krishna in the Ferrari was a drip.

Holi in Miami, peaking at the big Orange Bowl orgasmic extraveganza. I'll never forget the looks on the oldtimers' faces as we sauntered back looking like tie-dye gone awry.

Last one was 1997 Long Beach. Huge drip. M said it was all about my experience. Everything else said it was about devotion to M.
[ Another acid head for the SatGuru ]

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:13:21 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: Does GBBF count?
Message:
I've also been to the Norwich Beer Festival twice, The Pig's Ear Festival three times, and the Crystal Palace Home Brew Festival four times. The latter took place in a scout hut and was to raise money for the scouts. Selling beer was of course illegal without a license, so the beer was free, but the program cost a few quid.

I've also got this vague memory of going to a racecourse and not seeing any horses, spending ten and fourteen days in a field in Florida, getting squirted in Marbella and Rome, and generally sitting in some hall listening to people drone on and on in Copenhagen, Dortmund, Essen, Rome many times, Paris, Geneva, Birmingham, Brighton many times, Miami (twice for Guru Puja), and once for his birthday party. I also saw him in Long Beach.

Strange times, but the GBBF was more honest.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:33:58 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: First and Last
Message:
First was Guru Puja, London, 1973

Last was Guru Puja, Miami Beach, 1982

Seems like hundreds in-between, including Millennium, at least four Holi festivals, both Kissimees, Rome, Montreal a couple of times, several "birthday parties" (two in Miami, one in LA), Various in Denver, Tucson, Philadelphia, Portland, Orlando, Kansas City, Amherst, Toronto, Atlantic City, and Miami, Miami, Miami, Miami.

The big break came in December, 1982, when I decided I could not STOMACH the idea of going to Miami for M's STUPID birthday party, once again in the Miami Beach Convention Center. Believe it or not, I was still living in the ashram at that time. This seems like such a small thing now, but it was a BIG DEAL for me and all the premies I knew. They were praying for my immortal soul and I literally shook when I made the final decision not to go.

I remember I stayed in San Francisco, in the ashram all by myself. It was heaven. March, '83 moved out.

Later in 1983 Joy, I, and some people from our ex-cult group (both ex-Moonies, I think) went to see M at Chabot College. We sat in the balcony, ate bagels, and made comments. Remember that, Joy? I'm sure today we would have been kicked out, or not let in at all due to our questionable devotion.

In November, 1983, I went to Miami to visit friends and M just so happened to be doing an 'intro' program, which they didn't tell me about sooner for fear I wouldn't come. They talked me into going. M took questions from the audience and he was absolutely nasty and obnoxious to people. Even the premies I was with were put off by his arrogant behavior. What was even more insulting was that people weren't allowed to leave until M had "left the building" like he was Elvis or something.

That was it, until one time in 1990, I went to another intro event a couple of blocks from my office at the San Francisco Marriot. [Joy had I think gone with Richard to a program in Vancouver, called me up and said I should go in SF because it was "hysterical."]

That's when I walked out in the middle of M's insulting talk about how stupid and screwed up the 'people of the world' are. Considering his messed up life, I figured he had no business making comments on those of others. The ga ga looks on the faces of the premies I saw as I walked down the aisle on my way out creeped me out. It was so clear they thought he was God. I went home and took a shower.

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 07:09:48 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Walking Out
Message:
Hi Joe. Now that you mention it, I do remember going to that Chabot College
thing as probably the last full program I went to with M. I wonder what
became of those two ex-moonies, they were nice people.

I think going to a program with eyes wide open (after reading the Forum, or
being a fence-sitter) can be a really good thing. Helps to make the final
break. I recommend it for all fence-sitting premies, but only if you tell
yourself beforehand you're going to listen to him with all your critical
faculties to see exactly WHAT he is saying.

That's what I did before going to that final one in Vancouver in 1990 with
my premie friends. I had been an ex for over 8 years at that point, but
thought it a good opportunity to go up to Vancouver and see an old
non-premie friend at the same time, and just out of curiosity with the M
program, I told myself I would try and keep an open mind and see exactly
what he was saying, if it had any meaning for me or made any sense.

The program was in the Pan Pacific Hotel. Fortunately, I had the last seat
in the last row (what premie would ever say THAT!) so it was easy to walk
out after five minutes. That was all I could stomach either, I could not
sit there another minute after I realized he had nothing to say, and his
arrogant, patronising tone of voice literally made me want to scream. It
was the arrogance that drove me out of there, I could not handle it at all.
I whispered to my friends that I'd see them in the lobby afterwards, and
spent the rest of the talk browsing the gift shops and having a cup of
coffee in peace and quiet.

It was a really liberating feeling to make a public statement, if not to the
premies who by and large couldn't see me walk out, but to Maharaji himself,
who no doubt could. It put the final seal on my involvement with him
forever and made me feel totally free. I highly recommend doing this.

Merry prankster idea: It'd be kinda cool if we all did it en mass, wouldn't it? Those who could get in, of course.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:09:51 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: First and Last
Message:
Same here Joe, Guru Puja in London 1973 was my first, at that cold and muddy camp site. For me it wasn't much fun. Rain, cold, bad food, no compadres. I didn't know anyone except the 'sister' I traveled with from the Pittsburg ashram. Oh, I just remembered: to raise the festival money, I sold my half of the car my brother and I had shared for five years, a way cool 1940 Buick four door sedan. Grrrr.

The last festival I attended was Houston, the Millenium fiasco I never warmed up to the lad, couldn't get past his squeaky voice and the stupid things he said. He was a real let-down after some of the adult mahatmas, particularly Rajeswar. I returned to (relative) sanity some months after that program.

JSCA

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 20:54:12 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Millenium was your Last?
Message:
I didn't think exes went back that far? I met a couple in Victoria that recieved Knowledge and was turned off when they realized everyone idolized Maha. Lasted 2 months for them. Premies for 2 months. heh hee
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:09:36 (EST)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: festivals list
Message:
1975 Essen , my first festival i had k a few days before
this is where i first saw M , and got the Holy breath
all was sleeping togheter in a big hall , a lot of farts
but i loved it

1976 Montreal peace fligth , after the program all the premies
was walking down a main street in Montreal , i feelt we where
really showing the ``power of the love ``, when we was walking there
i remember shop owners comming outside their stores , to look at us all. i was so proud...

78 Miami ,,,orange bowl ?

78 Malaga ,, the bull figth arena ,, i was feeling the whole arena
was flying out into the space,,, there was 3 festivals in Malaga
around late 70`s ,, i was there to the all.

We where all dressed in white , coming for holy , it was soooo divine
bible feelings

M at stage with his water gun

Building stage i was

78 Geneva . do not really remember much

78 or 79 , Dortmund ,, rain mud water , i was there for building the stage , loved the trip.

79 Kissemee,, Oh it was so heavy satsang , he nearly killed me
and there was two festivals in Kissemee ,, I meet M when i was leaving
the place one day ,, just drifting away , then M came in his car , he looked me rigth in my face ,,, i felt bad , because i was leaving and then went back,,, good boy ,,,,,( i felt that he did not want me to leave , Oh well.....

80,, rome . shri hans festival , cant remember that much
But have still 4 hours of tapes here from that festival
and i tell you Devotion was everything at that time (western
mahatmas satsangs )
80- 82 miami ,,, orange bowl ,, lazer ligth ,? harakrishna people outside the hall ? Me outside giving satsang to the poor souls

Later it was : wembley Brigthon , lingfield ,,, I was building the stage. and many more ,, cant really remember.

My latest was Copenhagen 96 or 97 ,, just before epo

Over , And it is one two three , what are you figthing for
dont tell me that i aint ,,,,,,,,

cheers Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:16:55 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: Re: So which festivals were you at?
Message:
My first festival was Hans Jyanti in Toronto, I think it was in 1974.
I was at Orlando Hans Jyanti (1975?), and I remember a festival in Montreal but I don't remember the year. I attended a birthday celebration on the Queen Mary in Long Beach once, too.
I really didn't spend enough time chasing after dem lotus feets!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:05:02 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: Best Festivals.
Message:
Hi Nigel,

Best festivals I was at were Glastonbury 71 (helped build the stage) Glastonbury 95 (had a press pass), Lincoln 71 (saw Byrds) Elephant Fayre (80 something, John Martyn topped the bill), and the Eclipse Festival at Millbrook (£2.00 to go in, 5 great local bands).

Anth the festive.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 02:49:27 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: One too many. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:20:48 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: too many too many too
Message:
Haven't got a clue of the dates as I was living the timeless life but I remember...
Guru Puja Ally Pally - 'Get out of your Mind' posters and Cuffley campsite where M said that people had the wrong impression of him because of the Rolls Royce 'But it's a really old one' he said and we all laughed.
Geneva where his face was projected onto a 50ft? high video screen and we slept in Nuclear fallout bunkers, although I did have some good times with Kanute - an inspired flute/sax/everything player from Blue Aquarius - who entertained us 'fringe' premies so well.
Rome many times - once getting so drunk during a night on the town that we couldn't find our hotel until the next day - and going back to the small hotel after Holi wet and coloured.
Essen Getting lost again without being able to speak German. Every time we asked the way back to Essen they thought we wanted food - we did look a bit thin.
Dortmund where we stayed with a family of former SS officers - pictures on the wall and a strange vibe.
Orlando the never ending Krishna costume/dance all night festival. Nectarel and frozen yoghurt were the highlights - oh and there was a small hurricane.
Miami where you could fry eggs on the pavement
Lingfield a day at the races
Houston Millenium peanut butter and jello, Hare Krishna's putting sand in the petrol tanks, astroturf, Bhole Ji's band and Eric Mercury who did a good set
Montpelier Strongest memories are the wild horses on the Camargue and some sort of circus tent.
Munichfollowed on from Montpelier where we got woken up at 4a.m by German police with machine guns who through us out of the hotel into 4ft of snow. Mind you there were 12 of us in a double room.
Wembley Brighton Leicester Birmingham Malaga ..... to many more to mention
Aaaarrrggghhh - What have I done with my life?
It's true that some of it was fun though I can't help feeling I should have been doing something else with my time and money.
berni
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:20:49 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Vunderfull Copehhagen
Message:
First reluctant Darshan due to peer pressure.
Mostly remember they have some really rude shops there.
>;->
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:54:11 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: Do one night stands count?
Message:
What's the bet I'll recognize every single one of you from past festivals unless you've had a face-lift? Never forget a face.

1974 April: Copenhagen (two days and nights by train from London with no food or running water and three thousand screaming babies; Holy Family War - torn between Ashokanand and Prempal; get first darshan and go with Rawat.)

1975 July: Essen (sleep in campsite on Rhine run by the Nazi Nanny from Auschwitz, swim in Rhine - hair sticks in solid mass for two weeks, very embarassing.)

1976 May: Montreal (miss His Holeyness's last night's satsang because of being seduced by Gigo from El Salvador; feel like a rotten cabbage for weeks afterwards.)

1977 July: Miami (stay in Fountainbleu Hotel for two weeks with a bunch of Aussies with rugby players' legs and weird senses of humorand fall in love with USA.)

1977 November: Rome (get horribly constipated from catered food and after festival do the Vatican in 20 mins.)

1978 April: Malaga (nearly miss darshan because of Gigo; last person through still dressed in Holi paint-splattered clothes with some mud and...well this is a family forum.)

1978 September: Geneva (sleep on emergency stairwell of festival hall.)

1978 September: Dortmund (spend most of the time swimming in fancy pool with ten foot artificial waves.)

1978 November: Kissimee (spend most of the time in the communal showers with Gigo looking at Aussies with rugby players' legs.)

1979 January: Denver (too frozen to remember much - miserable and lonely as hell.)

1979 July: Miami (too sunburnt to remember much.)

1979 November: Kissimee (work in food service stirring pots the size of a Jeep.)

1980 January: Baltimore (too frozen to remember much.)

1980 July: Miami (have to catch a taxi back to hotel to get jacket as air-conditioning in hall too cold.)

1980 November: Rome (stay on afterwards for two weeks and fall in love with Rome.)

Ready to drop out but meet Chuck who wants K. Go to several local and LA events.

1981 July: Miami (ditto)

1982 July: Miami (ditto)

1983? July: Palm Springs (fabulous three days in swanky resort.)

1984? July: Palm Springs (ditto)

It becomes a bit of a blur here. I think I went to four festivals (Pimple's birthday bashes) in December in Los Angeles for about four years in a row between 1981 and 1984. Also in the same period rawat came to Bay Area several times for one night stands. Do they count?

Drop out till 1990.

1990 July: Miami

1990 November: Rome (EV books me into a sleazy hotel; thought I had an allergy to grappa but turned out it was bed fucking bugs.)

Drop out till 1994. I meet Andy who wants K; Rawat comes to Bay Area. Spend the next two years going to all the local and LA events.

Last festival: December 1997 in Long Beach.

I think I'll submit this to EV as my resume/CV to particiapte in a synchronized way.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:02:33 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: First and Last
Message:
My first festival was Montrose July 72, my last Event was Oakland summer of 98. Pat are you sure you didn't attend that one? If so you were at my last event (even though it was just a one day thing.

In between all of that was Hans Jayanti India Nov 72 a grueling 5 week torture test. Others that come to mind are Millennium 73 Houston TX, Amherst MA, Kansas City Mo, (remember that huge grotesque Ship stage) Philadelphia PA, both the Florida Kissimee festivals, Tucson AZ, Denver CO, the numerous Miami and Orlando escapades including Holi. Numerous LA and Long Beach CA events plus many Pacific NW events in Seattle WA, Portland Or and Vanvouver BC.

At one point I traveled half the way around the world and far and wide to see M. He was here in my hometown last year, and I did not go, didn't want to go and would not walk across the street to see him today.

That journey in my life is over, I have finally come home

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:57:12 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Oops! Forgot Oakland 98
Message:
Yes, that was my last one and even worse I told a former premie who had dropped out for 15 years about it and he went and now he is stuck back in the cult. Oy vey!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:20:37 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Foggy Memories....
Message:
My first festival was as an aspirant and it was the 1975 Hans Jayanti in Orlando? My last 'event was 1997? in Montreal.

In between I went to every one in the US and Montreal from '75 through '80. Went to both of the Kissimmee weeklongs. The first one was spent in a hotel and I felt too distant from the scene. The next one I was in a tent ) because I was doing Deca service. I am a modest person and hated the group showers and couldn't blow dry my hair. During the second Kissimmee, I spent most of my time in a trailer doing Deca service and making malas. Only break I got was during the fatass's speeches. And remembering not to chitchat was mind-numbing.

Never been to Europe. Glad I missed the Rome one in 77 or 78?? Yet what astounds me the most is the amount of traveling I did 'round our beautiful country and never saw anything but the inside of a fucking hall.

All have blurred together like a morning hangover--was I there? Did I? I went where? Said what? Saw whom?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 21:12:37 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Gawd - I forgot about chit chat
Message:
I remember that in the Kissimee era - bumping into premies you hadn't seen for months - dying to catch up on all the gossip - but censoring ourselves in mid-sentence....
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 11:15:39 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Re: Gawd - I forgot about chit chat
Message:
I remember Maharaji saying over and over ''no chit chat only satsang.'' Talk about mind control.

He was so mean during that second Kissimmee thing ''I'll be driving around here, and if I hear one word of chit chat, well I don't know what's gonna happen.'' (Premies laughing nervously)

What a tyrant! I too had friends from Conn. that I would bump into who I hadn't seen since I had been transferred to Miami, and the GUILT about just talking to them and catching up...

Get a pit in my tummy just thinking about it...

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:55:41 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Me too.. I forgot about chit chat
Message:
God i was priggish at times... even though this was years later at events I never wanted to socialise IF I was 'in THAT space'... and othertimes it was fantastic playful fun.. I remember having a great laugh with Guru Pat and BumphieJi and Bill Cotching in India..

It was a blast !

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 03:46:02 (EST)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: To Pat Conlon OT to above thread
Message:
Dear Pat,

I'll never forget you turning me on to the meterorite shower that magical night, nor all your replys to me which were so loving. Are you sure you're gay because I would be tempted by you. Anyway, I wanted to say goodbye. I don't have the time, nor the stomach for the forum. To understand my feelings and thoughts about the forum please read my response to Cynthia and Moley under the thread of Jim apologizing to Katie. You, I will miss. I'm still going to take you up on the offer of meeting. If you are ever in Wasdington, DC look me up please. We will have a good meal, some conversation, and wine and perhaps do you like to play cards?
Anyway, it's enough, I'll let the newly exiting PAM's and premies have space for posting. I don't think, BTW, that the PAM's are off the hook just by posting here however mislead they were. Look at Michael Dettmers, he blew in here, posted some, cleared his conscience and is gone. How has Michael used what he knows about Maharaji to bring the lard to justice? I guess he has too much to loose. Michael, gone like a theif in the night. Just like the guy recently, John MacGregor. Oh well, such is life. Some things aren't fair and Maharaji is one of them. Don't hold your breath (pun intended) on waiting for the cult to come to a screeching halt. Maharaji will some time, in the not too distant future, cut his losses. He's just going to retire. That's my take.
The forum is valuable and people will use it for what it is worth.
I am retiring to my life of raising children, loving my husband, earning income, preparing for the holidays, attending to my friends, and running my household.

You are a great soul Pat. I took this forum too seriously, got burnt and discouraged and now have to leave. Carry on with your general good nature and Godspeed.

Love, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:04:17 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: To Tonette...
Message:
Tonette,

I read your posts below. Just as we were getting to know eachother you are leaving.:( When you made your post 'Jesus, Mary and Joseph,' I felt your frustration with the ongoing Jim/Katie thing. I hope it ends sometime in the near future, too, for everyone's sake.

I didn't like Moley's retort to you either. It felt like a slap in the face. That's her problem, I guess. I really don't know her and believe she doesn't like me much, but I don't expect everyone here to like me, and I'm learning not to care about that so much anymore. You didn't deserve that remark, though, and I do believe you are owed an apology. (I'm ducking, I may get flamed for this remark) :)

I have gone through many phases with the various forums here (fora?). I have often felt inferior to some of the highly educated folk here who can have discussions that blow right over my head. Yet I am who I am who I am, and I have things to say and will say them.

I have realized breaks from the forum are necessary, this place gets pretty heated. But there is something for everyone to contribute, and I've very much enjoyed your writings. You are a caring and kind woman. I feel very angry at Maharaji too. I also believe that EPO and the forum has assisted many more people out of the cult that we can imagine.

One thing about leaving the forum, Tonette, don't lock the door. Know that you are always welcome to return. You have a right to say what you want to say, just like everyone else. This isn't a club, it's a unique forum with individuals who are still working themselves out of the stupid cult. Anyone who thinks they have an elite position here is fooling theirself.

Also, please know that since I first started posting on F4, left, returned, left and returned again (more than twice), I have found that upon returning that despite many of my own shortcomings, temper tantrums, (and I've had quite a few) I have been accepted back.

If you want to email me, please feel free to any time: sylviecyn@yahoo.com.

You will be missed...take care of yourself,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:36:21 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Hey, Tonette
Message:
Hi Tonette:

I understand your desire to leave. Contrary to common opinion, words can indeed hurt almost more than a physical blow. I really can't speak for Michael Dettmers (obviously), but I did want to mention to you (so you won't leave with the wrong impression) that Michael has done quite a bit behind the scenes. He was able to have delivered to Maharaji a letter from Susan, among other things. Also, shortly before he arrived here, and when he first posted, MD took a serious amount of heat. If I remember correctly, what got him to open up was Rev. John Hammond-Smyth's sermon, which was hilarious.

One important fact to remember, which I'm sure you do, is that these guys were in a cult also. I dcout they were any more of a free agent in their head than we were in the midst of our association.

Ciao, Tonette

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 04:46:17 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Tonette
Subject: I don't understand, Tonette
Message:
I guess I won't understand until I read the post to Cynthia and Moley that you mention. Please email me or at least keep my email address since I don't have yours.

I've had to cut back on my time here because I put so many things on hold during this past year and now they are catching up with me. So, like you I need to spend more time on real life than here.

But you say you got burned. I guess I'll have to look and see what you mean by that. The only things, other than myself, that would stop me from posting would be if I got banned or had no computer. No one has that power over me and conversely no one has the power to coerce anyone into posting.

We don't know what former PAMs are up to when they are not posting. Also not everyone wants ''to bring the lard to justice'' and some of us think that it can't be done (except in the court of public opinion - here) and even if it could be done, don't have the wealth, time or stomach for it.

I really hope you will get in touch with me and I think it would be good to take a break and perhaps later take a look at the forum with a fresh perspective and a bit more detachment. It's not meant to be a chore but a pleasure. We don't owe anyone anything except to be happy and pay our way.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 05:29:03 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PS Okay, I read your other posts...
Message:
...and yes, I think you need a break. The forum really is not worth getting that upset over. I'm sure your family will appreciate having more of your time and I bet you have lots of things that you want to do for yourself too.

Part of what I remembered from your post to Cynthia is that it made me realize that the forum has role in helping some people exit but not all.

You mentioned all the people whom Rawat has harmed in one way or another. Some of them will figure it out for themselves and heal themselves; others may read EPO and/or the forum but never post and others are more sociable and like to mix it up with the bunch.

The forum will definitely not appeal to all exes or even be needed by them. It is not as important as EPO but it is fun and when it stops being fun then it's time to take a break.

I sure hope you will keep in touch and, if you need to talk this over with me, I'm willing.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 02:59:49 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Fossils... its the new stuff that counts !
Message:
Rome 1982 - Darshan wow and screeching
manchester
Royal Albert hall
1983 - UK events and a few others.. I have lost all my ticket stubs in a fire - so I cant remember
1983 - Miami Convention centre (thats me on the pic with me tongue jammmed up my nose)in my dads shirt and tie (he died Nov 82).. I wasnt into clothes then..
1984 Lots of European events - Holi at the Orange Bowl Stadium Miami
1985 Lisbon, Madrid, paris, barcelona ....
etc etc lots of Miami, Fort lauderdale Webley/brighton Conf centre...
1990 I went mad... India,Paris, Berlin, Vienna, Zurich, Milano, lljubiana, Madrid, Dublin, Wembley, Copenhagen, Amsterdam.. Montreal, NYC, Philidelphia, Washington, Durham, Atlanta, Miami (relocated to palm beach), India again...was it 'Arise' in Rome that year ?
1991.. I think... was Holi in India, then later in the year Amaroo and Hans jayanti in delhi again and assorted other European progs.. cant find me old passport to check
1992 was India... was it Argentina Too ?
1993 was the beginning of the end...just UK events
1994 slowing down a lot... Brighton... erm.. erm... I started going to college though !
1995... erm... I didnt miss him in the UK, but I cant remember anything he said.. looking back, I really used to enjoy going to events. I didnt get 'oppressed' though... it was always a game. I guess what saved me was that I was crap at doing service.. I was a young pleasure/ darshan seeking missile, and that kept it fun.
I might have worn a suit but that was only to give the impression that I could go where I wanted to (and very often did !!) I remember..... oh here we go, I'd better stop before I start waxing lyrical about the Rejoices in Birmingham UK.. and then have to explain that I loved the feelings I had at that time.. and dont care if they were manipulated by a chain smoking despot... it was great !
Bye Maharaji, and thanks for all the fish.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:57:38 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: Fossils... its the new stuff that counts !
Message:
Hi Loafie,

I read all your posts and I support you in how you are feeling now.

I had wonderful, blissful experiences and it is sad it was all a big congame.

That's so hard to accept. Especially for premies who loved him so much. It is like a father that constantly says: ''you owe me, you owe me.''

When I read that in your post below I felt a lightbulb go off (again) because my bio-father was exactly like that. It's no wonder I fell into Maharaji's trap...if I believed in fate, I would say I was fated to be attracted to a fake.

But I won't try to comfort you except to tell you that I have felt sad the way you do. The loss is great when one believes someone to be the panacea to life, the LORD! THE LOSS IS GREAT!

But, pampering yourself, giving yourself the time to sit with you feelings as they are until you move on to the next step. Not like AA or anything like that, but the acceptance that Maharaji did take away real years from us. Our youth, our energy. At 48, I have quite a bit less energy than I did at 21, when I entered his world.

So just don't let anyone tell you how to feel, at the same time don't allow yourself to go too deep into the abyss of depression; it is a process.

You take care now,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:30:41 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: by his grace
Message:
Hi Loafie,

thanks for your picture. What a divine glance in your face, and this wonderful cultic design in the outfit.

My first programm was Millennium, I was nearly paranoid.
Kophenhagen I gave my golden watch to M.
Essen
Dortmund
Hamburg
Geneva
Rome
Orlando
Kissemie
and so on
Amaroo 97 I started to smell the rat
my last one was Mainz 2001 as undercover agent
Now aspiring the next programm to tell M: ' I think you are a conman'
This would be an act for my emanzipation (spell?)

.....wolfie getting bored to remember all of this

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:28:19 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject:
Message:
Hi Loafie,

thanks for your picture. What a divine glance in your face, and this wonderful cultic design in the outfit.

My first programm was Millennium, I was nearly paranoid.
Kophenhagen I gave my golden watch to M.
Essen
Dortmund
Hamburg
Geneva
Rome
Orlando
Kissemie
and so on
Amaroo 97 I started to smell the rat
my last one was Mainz 2001 as undercover agent
Now aspiring the next programm to tell M: ' I think you are a conman'
This would be an act for my emanzipation (spell?)

.....wolfie getting bored to remember all of this

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 04:58:16 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Fossils! Thanks for nothing
Message:
I remember you from Miami in 82! I was a hippy Californian with a tan and still had all my hair, teeth and waistline and, eventhough you were such a little chicken, wondered if you'd been to boarding school and knew the ropes. ;)

Just kidding.

You sure were a gopi.

In between festivals it was always hard work for me to get high but I'm glad that I persevered because the festival highs soon palled and I was left to my own devices for which I am grateful as I now see that all those highs came from me not His Holeyness. So I don't have to thank him for anything except teaching me what a scam gurujism is.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:27:28 (EST)
From: Loaf the overgrown chicken
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Fossils! Thanks for nothing
Message:
I am such a gung - ho enthusiast.. anything I do I tend to throw myself into wholeheartedly... so I AM GLAD that I had a blast following M round the world.. and going to places I wouldnt otherwise have made it to.. Glad that I met some wonderful premies and travelled by plain, train and automobile as one of the travelling bandidos.. it was an inspiring and wonderful time of my life.

Life was one long holiday... God only knows how I managed to stretch my credit cards that far.. and for so long... but I did.

I was running as fast as I could, away from all sorts of doubts and emotional issues, but for a while it was as close to heaven as I could have imagined...

but after enlightenment.. the laundry !

This phase of my life could not be more contrasting. I am burned out, lonely and tired.... but I am learning all the time. I dont know if I will ever come out of this one.. I doubt it somehow.... after many years of having him be my coach... urging me on, I dont think I am very motivated on my own - but it is a period of re-adjustment.. as ever.

All the best

Loaf

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 21:00:22 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Loaf the overgrown chicken
Subject: No shame in being suckered into cult???
Message:
Why?

Hi loaf, Don't think we've ever chatted. It's nice to meet you.

Doesn't it repulse you to know you kissed the asshole's feet and you liked it? Oh well, learn something new everyday. Are you sure you've dealt with the fact that this is a cult?

Sounds like you just changed your brand of toothpaste. ;)

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:11:11 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: None at all
Message:
Why should I be ashamed ? It is not my fault !

And there are worse things.... I did NOT abuse any children in my care.. I killed nobody... I am ashamed of some of my BEHAVIOUR - I , for many many years had very little emotional contact with other people.. my Gratitude was Hijacked.. so I never really got to tell my father that I loved him (which I did) - and I took the kindness of strangers on many occaisions, and gave thanks to Maharaji in their place.. but why should I be ashamed ????

Deborah.. I wasnt even a high powered honcho wreaking havoc... I was insensitive sometimes.. self important, parsimonious, priggish and smug, but I wasn't a Nazi. I did no war crimes. I was sweet and desperate for the feeling, and the truth... God knows what YOU got up to if you feel so guilty...i think you need to sort your attitude out if you want to BRAND and BLAME people or to disrespect Indian culture.

All is well.. and I LOVED Darshan !

Loaf

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:44:05 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: I DIDN'T say I was GUILTY
Message:
Loaf,

I said that I felt shame for being duped. Thinking that Maha was a Perfect Master and surrending the reins of my fuckin life to him, is, how shall I say it, the stupidest thing I ever did. Not to mention, that I informed everyone I knew prior to that ridiculous event about my newfound fortune. I decided that it wasn't worth it to keep in touch with these great people since THEY didn't understand.

I am VERY clear that it was not my fault.

I suspect that you have never read my posts, but if you haven't, how would you have such lucid insight to inspire the following advice.

'I think you need to sort your attitude out if you want to BRAND
and BLAME people or to disrespect Indian culture. '

I have fairly BRANDED this is a cult and I don't BLAME Indian culture for Maha being a cult leader.

And for your information, I have sorted it out, I am going to sort Maha out as well.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:39:19 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Loaf the overgrown chicken
Subject: no creditcards accepted
Message:
come on Loafie.....if you have streched your credit cards too much...this can bother me too. Lost time is much more worse, lost money you can get back, but lost time?????
He was your coach? I would question this. He coached us with subtle fear. I can't believe that your time as premie was free of things that bother you now, maybe the way we surpressed them was different. I like to dream, to think and do nothing and I call it meditation and it's good as a good sleep and sweet as a good dream. It helps me, we tried so many times, but did we really or was it some thing because he told us. No I'm not so stupid. We have done a lot of good stuff and what we have learnt we have learnt whith M, or without him.

Take care......wolfie......Jesus died, Buddha died, M has do die and I feel I have to die too.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 13:15:42 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: influences...
Message:
when I talk about M's influence.. i am NOT talking about whether he is worthy of my love and respect that i showered upon him.

My love and respect were precious - and still are. He was never REALLY the issue - cos he was always an icon, a catalyst a distant figure.

What WAS harmful was the horrific social cost of dreaming and 'using' people which I would justify in getting my fix. The obsession with 'experience' and 'how you are feeling' has had a horrific social cost for me.. BUT also an incalcualable benefit. I speak for myself only. I am not throwing my baby out with the bathwater... and there was a baby, found blissful and energised in strange and magical moments.. entirely subjective, glimpsed in that charade which was Darshan, awakened sometimes in a meditation when tears of gratitude would pour down my brainwashed cheeks... a child too long trapped who was let out, excited and dancing to race accross the world to be with his Lord.

Madness or folly.. it was great, and I am not so stupid to join a PRO or ANTI emotionally correct movement. Whatever is said, my past is my past and it makes no difference to me if I was hoodwinked by Peter Brook or Stanislavsky or maharaji or Speilberg... the HOLI day was the happiest of my life yet.. I lost my pants, and got dysentry and laughed and shouted and swallowed too much stagnant Indian water ... but I WAS happy.

Should I pretend otherwise in order to fit in here better ?

Am I an ex-premie ?
Am I am ex-Ian Warburton ??

No. Its all part of my life. There are aspects of the horrendous neglect of his teaching which have done me enormous hurt... but festivals and events were for me happy times by and large.

I loved them.
I have outgrown them.
I move on...

But my joy in 1992 is still beautiful - no matter what caused it.

Loafie
x

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:42:59 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: M is the baby, the bathwater is the Cult
Message:
Throw them out.

Now draw yourself a whole new fresh tub of water, bubbles and all nice and hot, now get in there and baby yourself Loafie, relax and let all of your cares, concerns, conflicts and cult rust soak away and disappear down the drain when you pull the plug.

Just like a big Hug, It does the mind and body good

Cheers Brian

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:50:34 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: M is the baby, the bathwater is the Cult
Message:
M aint the baby... he was a rubber duck. the baby was MY feelings.

Now... who pulled the plug out ??

Loaf

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:09:33 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Who are what was the plug, Grasshopper?
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:17:44 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PS Should be Who or what...
Message:
and it's a koan.

Want a daddy? There's lots of leather daddies who don't like their boys to be too young.:)

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:48:30 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: PS Should be Who or what...
Message:
No I dont want a daddy thanks Pat..I had a real one who is now very subtle (he always was) and I had a projected guru type daddy who was only 2 yrs older than me and who I thought loved me.

Now my subtle father is more vivid to me than my fake plastic one.

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 15:13:12 (EST)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Maha is 5 yrs. older than you
Message:
Unless your the same age as Jack Benny ;)
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:13:57 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: It is the plug of faith Pat [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 04:23:40 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: No Grasshopper, nor is it a buttplug
Message:
It is you. Without the plug you could not give the baby a bath.
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 05:31:16 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You speak wise words oh Patanand [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:36:30 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Re: influences...
Message:
awakened sometimes in a meditation when tears of gratitude would pour down my brainwashed cheeks... a child too long trapped who was let out, excited and dancing to race accross the world to be with his Lord.

Madness or folly.. it was great, and I am not so stupid to join a PRO or ANTI emotionally correct movement. Whatever is said, my past is my past and it makes no difference to me if I was hoodwinked by Peter Brook or Stanislavsky or maharaji or Speilberg... the HOLI day was the happiest of my life yet.. I lost my pants, and got dysentry and laughed and shouted and swallowed too much stagnant Indian water ... but I WAS happy.

Should I pretend otherwise in order to fit in here better ?

I would answer a resounding NO!
Don't toe the party line ever again. Speak as you find and sod 'em if they don't like it.
I think one thing we should have learnt is not to respect the apparently strong, confident, in-your-face characters who say 'this is the way it is'. Once bitten and all that.
Being yourself is the only way.
I too miss that feeling of being part of something magical and special. Not to mention being impervious to all the things that now bring me down like no money and the lack of physical/material comfort and security. In those days all that mattered was serving the Lord and getting in some meditation - let the cruel world take it's best shot.
Of course it was totally doo-lally madness and I feel completely foolish and embarassed about it, but it still felt like being in some sort of fantasy film where we were 'protected'. Shame it wasn't real.
cheers
berni

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:57:21 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: thanks bernie
Message:
I think it is important to remember that i had integrity as an aspirant.. and also as a premie.. i never really 'sold out'.. I bought in !

I think what makes it hard for people to respect premies is the 'closed mindedness' - but there are many shades of prejudice.. and I (hving been extreme in my Premiedom)have learned so much from this journey..

I genuinely feel sometimes that exiting is the natural fulfilment and re-integration of the whole process...

there is no parting if you take yourself with you as you go... but there is still the sorrow and grief over the death of a father figure which took me a little time to get used to.

this place is at best for me an orphanage and play room, a rehabilitation session and a place to stretch my cramped wings.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:18:00 (EST)
From: Jean Valjean
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: R
Message:
Thank you for this loaf,
i am really moved for i do feel the same.
this is the first time i post on this forum and i am very pleased
to have the opportunity to speak out somethisng at last.
English is not my mothertongue language so you may find my post
quite simplistic.

i am proud and very pleased to do so.

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 10:34:05 (EST)
From: Victor
Email: None
To: Jean Valjean
Subject: now Jean [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:44:37 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean Valjean
Subject: Hello, Jean...
Message:
Welcome and good for you for posting.

I hope you will tell us more about your life w/Maharaji and don't worry about all the arguing here...sometimes it's like siblings fighting.

I was a gopi premie. I miss the community part. Even though we were in a cult, it is the people I miss the most.

Best,
Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:56:16 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Jean Valjean
Subject: welcome jean.. and thankyou
Message:
hello jean, dont worry.. honesty is what we have been longing for for soooo long. I speak only for myself.. but it is my sincere feeling that even if we feel it, we are not alone, and the many shades of colour that make us who we are come flooding in... everything is not black and white.

I am moved and very happy to hear you speak.

Thankyou my friend.

Loafie

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:11:47 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: never really 'sold out'.. I bought in
Message:
Too True.
Hi Loaf,
What a weird trip eh?
It was a bit like going out to see some theatrical event the first time I went to hear satsang at the ashram - and a quarter of a century later I found I had become part of the production of some fantasy fairytale nightmare and was having a hard job leaving the theatre of the absurd.
Still I got out - or did I? What am I doing still talking about it 10 years after leaving.
Maybe I am more psychologically disturbed than I thought? ;)
When did you escape?
berni
Posting like there's no tomorrow 'cos (snigger) I haven't got a password - unless my campaign to abolish the pw has succeeded. If not they'll probably cut me off soon but I don't care because the Sopranos is on in a minute.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:18:44 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: berni
Subject: Re: never really 'sold out'.. I bought in
Message:
I am still escaping and integrating and moving on.. all simultaniously... i started exiting in 1993.. but didnt realise what was happening..it was a very unsettling time. It took me quite a while to stop feeling 'disloyal', so deep of the tired old cup of 'gratitude' had I drunk... but it wasnt enough any more. I started to outgrow him when i realised that I didnt fit the clothes he wanted me to wear any more.. being thankful is monotonous once you begin to feel that you actually 'deserve' this. No gratitude needed. its mine now.

From that point on he seemed to be playing a one string fiddle... expertly it has to be said.. as tempting as the voice of Saruman, and as much as I would have liked it to be enough.. having my gratitude 'milked' began to strike me as bad parenting.

What sort of father would constantly remind his children how much they owed him ?

I then began to realise that encouraging TRUST (as a feeling) was as dangerous as encouraging PRIDE before a flag... we are impressionable souls.

and then the more I thought and looked and saw, the more manipulative he seemed.

And then one day.... his confidence which is so alluring to me once actually looked like folly... and I knew it was over.

Dont worry about passwords.. just enjoy your 15 minutes of fame.

I can't tell you guys how much your support and words and presence means.. its dangerous and exciting and .. I am glad to say :

Its fashionable to be confused.

xx
Loafie

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:07:16 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Loaf
Subject: At least some of our bliss...
Message:
....came from living for something greater than ourselves, not thinking or worrying about ourselves too much. That still works and always has which is why throughout history sensible people have devoted themselves to causes or to the welfare of other people.

Now, chicken, (or are you a pullet already?) just listen to this old chicken-hawk (not really;) and trust me: if you find a way to channel your love to others you will be happy and definitely never lonely. Promise. The more time and concern you give to others, the less time for self-pity. You won't have the time to feel sorry for yourself because you will be having too much fun. :)

And don't be blue. You know you can email me any time you want.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:44:44 (EST)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: At least some of our bliss...
Message:
thanks Pat.. but i am sort of enjoying and reclaiming my life by means of asserting my right to be fucked up and miserable !

It sounds like a cop out, but I am deeply humbled and quietened by what i am going through... I just dont have the energy to be bright and cheery at the moment.

And incidentally, thanks for your talk about helping others.. i do and I love it - but they are not there as therapy for me, and sometimes (and only sometimes) being distracted from what is going on is exactly what i dont need... I am ok.. honestly. I talk frankly here which can make things sound worse than they are, but I want to air my pain (and my pleasure and my perspective) in case it makes sense to anyone out there.

No martyrdom... just the company of truth.

:0)

Loafie

(and thanks )

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:27:46 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: I understand, Loafie
Message:
It is a relief to sometimes just be miserable without having to put on a happy face. I thought you were more unhappy than that though and just wanted you to .... be happy. But I really understand. You just feel like having a kvetch.

And yes, to me satsang is simply sharing love and being honest.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:34:22 (EST)
From: Loafie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: whats a kvetch ??
Message:
iT SOUNDS LIKE A SMALL JEWISH YAUGHT. I am not saying I wouldnt like one, but I cant picture jackie mason afloat....
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:58:25 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loafie
Subject: It's what yentas do
Message:
Yiddish for whine, moan, grumble, let off steam etc. Jackie is not a yenta. He's too meshugah.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:39:44 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: British Premies at Kissimee
Message:
I recall doing 'intake service' at the front desk at the Kissimee swamp festival in 1979. I was sent there early to do 'service' which was basically to help ensure that M had accommodations to his satisfaction, and the premies had the bare minimum, with Portolets, tents on bare ground, cold showers and sitting on the ground in the hot sun, while Maharaji sat in the shade and bragged that he had 'an invisible wall of air conditioning' surrounding him while sitting on that gross, gross throne with all the electronic gadgets that he thought were so neato cool.

With all that, one wonders why he was so obviously pissed through that whole festival. He sure did yell at us.

Anyhow, it was about 90 degrees F and 90% humidity although being November, it did cool off at night. Sitting there in my shorts and tank top it was interesting watching the British premies show up from the airport wearing woolens of all types, skirts, pants, scarves, hats, sweltering in the heat, dragging their camping gear behind them. Moley, were you one of those?

Hell must be better than what the Kissimee Festival was, or there certainly is no God.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:16:45 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: British Premies at Kissimee
Message:
Hi Joe,

I went to Kissimee a couple of weeks early to help Michael Blakemore organise the childcare.

In true British tradition, there was a thieving ring, organised by an anarchic British premie working in the kitchen, who stole loads of meal tickets and distributed them free to broke British premies doing service, including myself and family.

I also heard there was an onsite brothel, run by some South American premies.

I think any kind of drug you wanted was available on site too.

The 12 year-old daughter of a British rock star was sexually abused by a premie posing as a new age doctor. Again, (seems to be my fate) I became involved. I demanded that the security called the police, and have the guy arrested, but they didn't want bad publicity, and gave the guy satsang instead.

Those were the days.

Anth my bike is worse than my bark.

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 12:36:25 (EST)
From: SULLA
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What a smell for business!
Message:
OH MY GOD! So South American premies also run the burdel???
What a smell for business!! I'm impress!! Something they have to learn from the boss!!
And the 'prostis'? Were they also South Americans? Do they have a prosti sample from each S. American country?
Were European, North American and other continent meretrices also available?
And don't tell me that only South American premies took advantage of the onsite brothel. I bet the businessmen were paid a lot of not counterfeit bills.
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 17:56:26 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: SULLA
Subject: Re: What a smell for business!
Message:
Hi SULLA,
There were brothels from several countries, but the South American ones, where I spent many red food tickets, were the best by far. Much classier than the Eurotrash. The Americans were too expensive- three lunch tickets for howsyafatha, six for a howsyamum, and a dozen for the full General Montgomery. Their tents were tidier too.

The South Americans also had the best drugs.

Anth the African

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:22:41 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Prostitution/Drugs at Kissimee
Message:
I found out later that the charters from South America to the Kissimee festivals were being used to smuggle drugs which were sold widely at the festivals in both 1978 and 1979. Apparently the Miami satsang hall became a focal point after that, being that hundreds of South American premies stayed illegally in Miami after those festivals. Miami was awash in drugs at that time. Many premie drug dealers in the Miami community. I sometimes borrowed money from them when we were short on paying rent for the satsang hall.

So, DEI agents (I guess it was just FBI then) staked out the satsang hall posing as premies listening to satsang. Weird. DLM cooperated with the feds and I was told as CC to do whatever they wanted. All those vices, as well as M milking the organization for every cent it had, were part of the reason there never was a big outdoor festival after 1979. In fact, international programs period kind of died after that.

Yes, there definitely was a drug and sex trade going on at Kissimee. But stolen food tickets!!!! That is just too much to comprehend!

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 13:20:18 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Prostitution/Drugs at Kissimee
Message:
I'm a South American and as Barbara, I didn't travel in that ring of hell, as many hundreds of South American premies didn't either. Was the premie business only about cocaine? or did they also sell Heroin, LSD or Hashish? Because if they did, not only the South Americans, but also the British, other European, North American or Indian premies were involved. What do you think?
And about the stealing, you cannot put all the people in the same sack, not because some Indians or British or North Americans steal, you can say when something disappear that must be the Indians, or British or North Americans. Estrange thing you didn't refer to us as 'Hispanics' so you could include more people in the same sack, as Mexicans, Central Americans, and even Hispanics from Spain.
I don't thing we exported those steroids. And what's tschotke? It's a drug?
Never heard about it.

And what about you borrowing from that stinky money! Are you sure you are not from South America?

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 14:45:17 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Sulla
Subject: Whoa, Sulla
Message:
I didn't talk about any stealing. All I know is that I was told by Elan Vital honchos that the charters from South America to the Kissimee Festival were being used to smuggle 'drugs' into the US. I assumed it was cocaine, but I don't know for sure.

That isn't to say that American premies, Europoeans and others WEREN'T dealing drugs. At that time, like I said, Miami was awash in drugs, especially cocaine and had the highest murder rate in the US. And it wasn't just South Americans who were dealing, that's for sure. Those premie drug dealers that I hit up for money to pay rent on the satsang hall were Americans. Plus, I'm sure at least half the Miami Community, including many of the hundreds and hundreds of premies who were in the ashram in the Miami area, smoked dope regularly. I, being the stalwart company man, did not, however.

But the FBI was interested mostly in the smuggling part of it; why I don't know. And the staking out of the Miami satsang hall was in regard to ALL drug dealing, not just in regard to a particular nationality.

I think 'tschotke' is a Yiddish term for kitchy junk. The kind of stuff that Visions sells. At that time, Elan Vital was selling lots of pictures of M, as well as various junky jewelry, tapes, barrogans, tote bags with the Lard's face on them, etc.

What 'stinky money' are you talking about?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:37:55 (EST)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Prostitution/Drugs at Kissimee
Message:
Joe,

I was doing security at one of the Kissimmee programs and spent part of a day following around some South American premies who supposedly had a cocaine ring going at the festival. I remember another festival at the Convention Center in Miami during that era where there were counterfeit bills coming in from South America and the were being used to buy tschotke at the sales tables. The problem was not just taking the couterfeit bills, but giving them change in good currency.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:29:19 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'Stealing at the 7-11'
Message:
I remember the 7-11 on the corner of the road which led into the festival grounds was stolen blind. I never heard of the prostitution ring but, then again, I didn't exactly travel in that particular circle of hell.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:26:35 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Christ...Was I Naive... [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:31:21 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, please...
Message:
At kissimee, how do you think those premies put on white shirts and black pants and pulled Maharaji around that swamp on a flowered cart while he wore a crown and a pearl mala unless they were on major drugs? Think about it! :)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:40:44 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Christ I am gullible....
Message:
Joe,

Do you mean steroids? LOL!

I remember that particular cart ride well...I can still hear the Indian premies singing in Hindi in the background...actually have a audio tape of it....premies blowing shris in the background...he made eye contact with me....I fell down crying....

Christ, I was gullible! O me gawd...

The nipples were airbrushed out eh?

btw, Joe, AIID, must have become Elan Vital earlier than 1980. I remember it happening earlier...are you sure?

Gotta go fer now...my turn to make dinner...and the 1939 version of Gulliver's Travels is on AMC right now....one of my childhood favs.

...Last night Tom watched ''Catch 22''...cast of thousands...

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:30:28 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: LOL...I hear ya [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 09:21:44 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: British Premies at Kissimee nightmare
Message:
Yep, I was one of those. Battered suitcase full of granola, premie husband and 11 month old baby in tow. Husband's dad gave each of his sons £500 to fly to Eygpt to visit him - and so we flew to Orlando instead!
A bunch of us from local community - landed at JFK airport.... wandering around in the Maya... looking totally spaced-out (I say this in retrospect!). Got escorted through the airport by big beefy gun-toting airport policeman, who must have taken pity on us. Me paranoid cos I was smuggling foodstuffs into the States. (Smuggled a toddler into Spain next year. Pretended 'he' was a 'she'and took him through as my daughter on my passport, with a flowery bonnet on, cos he wasn't on his Mum's.)
Kissimee - ended up with another premie in our tent (Where are you Arnie?). Bitten by insects. Drowned in tropical rainfall one day. Spent only money on a ring so I could be 'married' to Rawat. Cold water, dirty toilets. Big-time heavy telling-off satsang on the first night. Running through swamp to get to M's car, see him close up driving past in luxury (ignoring me obviously). Severe lack of sleep. Semi-starvation. By end of 10 days on another planet. Got on internal flight, and wept and wailed en masse with rest of community. Got on next flight - too consumed by itching bites to feel devotion. Back to reality!
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:46:37 (EST)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: dancing all night long
Message:
Hi, wasn't it divine to dance all night long with the Lord of Lords. Damn I always was thinking, why I can't get into the groove, should have had some good smoke and made my own party in the hotelroom. No me and my wife with our three year old son and our ten month old daughter hanging there half the night totally exhausted. My heart screamed stop stop but I 've heard myself shouting: please dance dance dance. Then he got behinde the stage, I thought now it's over, shit he came back in another funny coustume, blue ones, red ones, green ones, golden ones........those were the days my friends.

love ....tears and laughter.......wolfie after a long long movie schow

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 03:09:06 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: r.e. costumes
Message:
yeah, one night miragey had so many weird dress changes -- it was like a Liberace concert.

Won't you dance, dance, dance, our hearts blah blah blah...

those were some crazy days and crazy nights! LOL, fer crying out Lard!

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 22:17:38 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Kissimmee
Message:
There was more than one Kissimmee program, no? These multi-day festivals are kind of a blur of impressions to me now. I had to laugh (loudly) at Nigel's memories of his suitcase of granola and a Krishna-clad margie being pulled around like an ox and cart. I remember that one, with the premies forming a long twisting procession - a perplexed looking Donner being one of the honourary pullees and of course the regular security suits with walkie talkies marching briskly in advance.

Oh the memories, like driving there in our rented ashram Winnebago. Doing entrance 'security' during the evening shift and giving a very long and sensuous massage to a 'sister' I got paired with. She ended up inviting me back to her tent to, ahem, do group meditation. I very nearly left the ashram then and there to hitch-hike back to the Kootenays with her - but then marji had his infamous meeting in which he stated quite plainly and clearly that only Mr. M-I-N-D would make us ever want to leave the ashram. Doh!!!!

Trying to meditate in one of the tents and having to listen to some guy constantly wrapping and re-wrapping himself in this crinkly, metallic, space-age blanket someone was selling to the premies to keep them warm. Washing my favourite blue jeans and hanging 'em out to dry, going to satsang, coming back and finding out that they had been ripped off - everyone was telling me if must have been the South American premies. Listening to margie giving satsang about how the premies are propogating - like rabbits - and derisively describing us (paraphrasing Ira Woods) as nothing but lumps of flesh clinging to other lumps of flesh - I was certain he threw in that bit just for me because I was an ashram premie who was breaking his vow of celibacy for the first time at Kissimmee.

I remember that I actually put a suit on for darshan out in this muddy field of dreamers. Living on nothing but yoghurt, bananas, and 'bliss'. I mostly remember the youthful idealism and hopefulness of being together on the land with people from all over the world as 'one family' listening with 'one heart' to our dear Lord, Guru Maharaj Ji. A long journey dear friends from that to Visions trinklets, $100 suggested entrance donations to Speaker Appointments, selling access and proximity to the high rollers, a Lear Jet, a 7 million dollar yacht, palatial residences, Special Trainings, CAC attacks, and yer run of the mill bongs, booze, blondes and bhakti bucks. Sigh.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 18:34:44 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Moley and Nige
Subject: Come on , you can do it...
Message:
What came after Kissimee, 1979? I was enjoying your rendition of those mind-fucking festivals.

I heard that M is holding an "event" in the good old "Miami Beach Convention Center" the site where both Richard Nixon and George McGovern accepted their respective party's nominations in 1972.

I must have spent 1000 hours in that cavernous, dank, place, because so many festivals took place there between 1977 and 1983. . The thought of it brings back the smell eminating from the huge air conditioning units. I'm sure any US premie or ex-premie can conjure up the same.

The very idea of having to once again be in that hall listening to me sitting on a stage covered in Federal Blue carpeting, makes we want to puke.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 18:55:44 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hmm...
Message:
What came after Kissimee, 1979? I was enjoying your rendition of those mind-fucking festivals.

I heard that M is holding an "event" in the good old "Miami Beach Convention Center" the site where both Richard Nixon and George McGovern accepted their respective party's nominations in 1972.

I must have spent 1000 hours in that cavernous, dank, place, because so many festivals took place there between 1977 and 1983. . The thought of it brings back the smell eminating from the huge air conditioning units. I'm sure any US premie or ex-premie can conjure up the same.

The very idea of having to once again be in that hall listening to me sitting on a stage covered in Federal Blue carpeting, makes we want to puke.


---

Beats me why anyone would want to cover themselves with federal blue carpeting, but - then again - this was a cult, was it not...?;)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:07:48 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That's funny Nigel.
Message:
On the subject of carpets. I hear a US airforce pilot shot down what he thought was a Taliban soldier on a magic carpet, over Kabul, then got into big trouble because it turned out to be an Allied Carpet*.

Anth, it's the way I tell 'em.

*Allied Carpets are one of the biggest carpet retailers in the UK.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:40:13 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: That's funny Nigel. :LOL
Message:
Ho ho ho :)
Thanks for the laff Anth - I'm just getting a few posts in before the FA realises he's got the password thingy turned off
;)
berni
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:01:23 (EST)
From: Moley
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Christ - did he want to get into my knickers??
Message:
Sometime in 1980 - London - some Godforsaken event all about 'Satsang, Service, Meditation and Devotion' - and the only one that really mattered was 'Devotion'! LOng, lingering looks from the Lard in the darshan line - scary but true - and here's me thinking he thought I was a devoted premie....

Moley - fell off a Christmas tree circa 1977

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:55:43 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Moley
Subject: Loss of Memory
Message:
Los Angeles in 74, small
Kissimee witht the floating stage and double foot darshan
Back to Kissemee sleeping in tents, a smart premie from our communtity had a custom shade tent made and we all sat under that along with pushy other pwks who demanded to
rome
montreal-loved that town
miami too many times to remember including the fancy dinner in 79 or 80
L.A. too many times
S.F a couple of time
Berkeley
Oakland
Philadelphia with the first flower mala
Portland in 76 or sometime there abouts, the gas shortage year
Miami, only it was an hour north of Miami
Universal studio hotel thing
Santa Monica
Denver, that big Valentine one in the 70's
Denver, again but can't remember
Arizona, somewhere
Chicago early 90's or late 80's near on that university campus, or nearby

Sure wish I had all the air fare back, along with the hotels. Remember when we first stayed in Miami for like $12?

There's probably more but it's all one big blurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 10:06:48 (EST)
From: Vicki
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: Re: Loss of Memory
Message:
Ahh, it's starting to come back.....
Pasadena
Thousand Oaks six years ago or so
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Date: Fri, Dec 07, 2001 at 13:30:57 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Vicki
Subject: I'd forgotten about the Pasadena dos
Message:
and Thousand Oaks. They all kind of blurred into one. All during that time I was really starting to find the events boring and fell asleep during rawat's sermons.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:29:20 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it.
Message:
I have heard some people say they find what Maharaji says inspiring. Actually, even as a premie, I can say that is something that was never, ever true for me, although I might have said it sometimes.

When I listened to M, I just tried to turn my brain off and 'be open,' because if I thought about what he was saying, it was ridiculous. Amazingly simplistic and dumb. Because those thoughts constituted 'doubts' and because Maharaji commanded me NOT to doubt, I did my best to just let what he said waft over me with no analysis whatsoever. In today's premie jargon, I was trying to listen to M with my 'heart' instead of my 'mind.'

But what he says is really stupid, perhaps mixed in with some things that are maybe kind of reasonable. For example, the following is from M speaking in Rome in June, of this year:

The future does not know about you, and the past has forgotten you. Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

Is he trying to say we might die at any time? I guesso, but I'm not sure. Okay, let's assume that. What 'elbow room' is he talking about? Then, he says:

There is no room for error. Your existence isn't a compensatory body that tries to compensate for all your mistakes. Life is not a shock absorber. Life is not a rubber sole on your shoe. Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. Life is none of these things.

What mistakes? What error? What is the difference between 'existence' and 'life?' What the fuck is he talking about? So what if life isn't an elastic band in your pajamas? He makes no sense, and yet this is what they chose to print in the Elan Vital online newsletter, supposedly because it was the most profound statement in his satsang. Again, I assume he is trying to say you might die at anytime. Okay, let's assume that. True statement, but hardly inspiring.

Next, he just drops that discussion and starts talking about breathing:

You need to begin first by recognizing this breath. In theory, it should be incredibly simple for the living to understand the value of the breath because without that, there would be nothing. Without that, you would merely turn blue. Without that, your brain would not function, your eyes would not function, your ears would not function, your hands would not function, your heart would not function, your kidneys would not function: nothing would function. You would think that there would be a recognition of its importance, but there isn’t. Everything else comes in between - all the concepts, all the ideas, all the preferences.

Okay, so you need to breathe and it's important. True, maybe your heart would stop beating if you weren't breathing, but you would also stop breathing if your heart stopped beating. That's just as true.

You also have to have blood flow, a nervous system, a functioning liver, and a bunch of other elements of the body or you couldn't breathe either, at least not for very long, and just like not being able to breathe, losing your nervous system, the thing that tells your body to breathe, would also make it impossible for anything else to function. So why doesn't M say that first you have to understand the value of your nervous system, or brain? Why breathing?

And even if you could breathe, if you didn't have oxygen, it wouldn't do any good anyway, or if you had breath but no lungs, or lungs but no circulatory system so the oxygen could do your body any good, you wouldn't have life either. Why not just pick one of those things for what you "need to understand" the value of?

The point is, why does he pick BREATHING as this thing YOU NEED TO RECOGNIZE as having profound importance for 'life' above all else when other things are equally, and perhaps MORE important? [I mean, I was taught in first aid in Boy Scouts that if someone was both not breathing, and bleeding from an artery, it was MORE important to stop the bleeding first, because the person would die sooner from loss of blood than lack of air.]

Does M do this because he is trying to tie breath into 'life force' and that to the 'word' meditation technique (now technique number three)? If you think about it, it makes no other sense.

And if so, why do you need light, music and nectar techniques? What are they for if it's the breath that's important?

I am CONVINCED that the only way people say that they find M inspiring is because they DON'T actually listen to what he says. That's why if you ask a premie to tell you what, in content, Maharaji said, they are usually unable to tell you, except maybe for the 'joke' M told, or the general gist of being reminded of the value of 'life.'

The first time I realized this phenomenon was when I brought a person whom I respected to see M for the first time, in about 1981 or so. She was polite, but after nearly falling asleep while M rambled on, she told me later that there wasn't any content in what M said, that it was disjointed, and made no sense.

I remember thinking at the time that was because she was listening to the 'words' with her mind instead of her 'heart' or some such nonsense. Then I thought about that thought, and I had a major DRIP.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:01:20 (EST)
From: sulla
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: What M actually 'Says' -- don't get it.
Message:
I also notice this obsession for the breath. I had the impression that he meant that God is in the breath. It sounded so weird for me,and more weird when he was talking about a baby who was breathing for the first time after he was born, and how this breath made him to be alive and an individual, independent of the mother, not part of her mother's body any more, but himself. I really was wondering if I heard this reasoning before in the pro abortion movement. I believe that the baby was alive since the moment of conception, and an individual human been even while in her mother's womb.

Sorry about misspells or grammar errors.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 14:08:45 (EST)
From: Sulla
Email: None
To: sulla
Subject: The breath and the swing
Message:
When I received K it was explained to me that breath was the vehicle to go to a place inside so I could feel the experience of the holy name. I wasn't told that the experience was in the action of breathe. My husband was told to make a noise, and visualise M in a swing, but he couldn't do it that way, because while the breath went up and down with the sound, the swing went from left to right. I think M is so confuse now, he is trying to understand and explain things that he himself doesn't understand. He is changing all the foundations of this K trip at his will and understanding. I would rather follow Satpal, at least he is more authentic.

Oh my God! Another premie calling me to find out what was going on with me, we started arguing and I had to tell her that I was going to believe that even if Maharaji was the devil she would follow him. I would! she answered. I can't believe it, but I heard something like that lot of times. I don't have patience. She doesn't care and she doesn't want to know. Why she ask then? She doesn't want to talked to me again either. It's OK.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:22:29 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Vital organs vs. Elan Vital organs
Message:
I guess the reason 'vital organs' are so-called, is because each is vital for survival and must, by definition, be equally vital - as you have so astutely pointed out, Joe.

The thing is, both 'breath' meaning 'life' and 'heart' meaning 'emotional core' are fairly standard metaphors in non-cult circles - and not bad ones when used as simple figures of speech. The trouble with M's use of the the terms is the way he thoughtlessly confounds 'breath' as process, or 'heart' as vital organ (physical) with 'breath' as 'life force' and 'heart' as 'elan vital organ' (supposedly 'spiritual') as if the literal apllications were interchangable with the figurative. Hence the irrational nonsense in the passage you quoted.

NB for folk unaware of the term's origin: 'Elan Vital' was first coined by the philosopher Henri Bergson to describe an unseen entitiy or life force which not only animates us (defines the difference between a live body and a dead one), but also serves as the guiding hand behind evolutionary change. Regarded by most scientists as cranky nonsense, Bergson's theory sits well enough with M's cranky nonsense.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:58:16 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Elan Vital'
Message:
I recall being at IHQ in Miami circa 1980, when the decision was made to change both 'And It Is Divine' and 'Divine Light Mission' to 'Elan Vital.'

Like Richard said, AIID was a pretty stupid name for a magazine, and the explanation regarding DLM was twofold: First, we wanted to get rid of the 'Divine' implications and second, M wanted to create the pretense that EV and DLM were 'different' organizations.

I do recall somebody at IHQ, might have been Dennis Marciniak, talking about how the name came from a French philosopher. I don't know who suggested the name to Maharaji, but it's certain HE didn't do the research. At the time, he was still spouting his profoundly anti-intellectual nonsense, even saying he had never read a book himself.

As we know, at least in the States, Elan Vital is nothing more that DLM with a name change, and even on the current, shrunken EV website, it states that EV has been around 'since 1971.' The name change did not even happen until 1986.

So, the magazine title got changed, but it remained a gaudy, grotesque publication, with almost nothing but garish pictures of Maharaji with his corpulent face sticking out of Krishna crowns. I am told by people from SHIP that his pictures had the zits air-brushed off of them. I don't know if they also air-brushed out a few of his chins.

The 'satsang' in them was heavily edited, but still unreadable. And NOTHING else was in the magazines anymore as there had been in AIID. Remember the stories on Yuri Geller, and even a "Womens' issue?" The focus of the EV magazine was entirely on the worship of Prem Pal Singh Rawat/Guru Maharaj Ji.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:25:43 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: 'Elan Vital'
Message:
Joe, the French philosopher was Henri Bergson, early 20th century. Haven't been able to find out who originally suggested 'Elan Vital'.
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 18:32:46 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: McDuck
Subject: Right -- see Nigel's post (above) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 19:08:18 (EST)
From: McDuck
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Silly me NT
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:35 (EST)
From: Pullaver
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Oracle and Forrest Gump
Message:
Actually the reverse seems to make a trifle more sense:

There is room for error. Your existence is a compensatory body that tries to compensate for all your mistakes. Life is a shock absorber. Life is a rubber sole on your shoe. Life is an elastic band on your pajamas. Life is all of these things.

As Forrest Gump said with more poignancy: life is a like a box of chocolates. . .

Speaking of Forrest Gump, how about these Gumpisms?

Forrest Gump: My mama always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.

Mrs. Gump: Remember what I told you, Forrest. You're no different than anybody else is. Did you hear what I said, Forrest? You're the same as everybody else. You are no different.
Principal: Your boy's... different, Miz Gump. His IQ's 75.
Mrs. Gump: Well, we're all different, Mr. Hancock.

Mrs. Gump defines vacation: Vacation's when you go somewhere... and you don't ever come back.

Jenny Curran: Do you ever dream, Forrest, about who you're gonna be?
Forrest Gump: Who I'm gonna be?
Jenny Curran: Yeah.
Forrest Gump: Aren't, aren't I going to be me?

Forrest Gump: My name's Forrest Gump. People call me Forrest Gump.
Drill Sergeant: Gump! What's your sole purpose in this army?
Forrest Gump: To do whatever you tell me, drill sergeant?
Drill Sergeant: God damn it, Gump! You're a goddamn genius. That's the most outstanding answer I've ever heard. You must have a goddamn IQ of 160. You are goddamn gifted, Private Gump. Listen up, people...

Forrest Gump: Now for some reason I fit in the army like one of them round pegs. It's not really hard. You just make your bed real neat and remember to stand up straight and always answer every question with 'Yes, drill sergeant.'

Drill Sergeant: ...Is that clear?
Forrest Gump: Yes, drill sergeant!

Forrest Gump: He was from a long great military tradition. Somebody from his family had fought and died in every single American war. I guess you could say he had a lot to live up to.

Forrest Gump: Stupid is as stupid does.

Mrs. Gump: Don't you be afraid, sweetheart. Death is just a part of life, something we're all destined to do.

Mrs. Gump: I happen to believe you make your own destiny. You have to do the best with what God gave you.
Forrest Gump: What's my destiny, Mama?
Mrs. Gump: You're gonna have to figure that out for yourself. Life is a box of chocolates, Forrest. You never know what you're gonna get.

Jenny throws several rocks at her former home and then collapses in tears.
Forrest Gump: I guess sometimes there's just not enough rocks.

Forrest Gump: I'm not a smart man, but I know what love is.

Forrest Gump: My mama always said you got to put the past behind you before you can move on.

Forrest Gump: I don't know if we each have a destiny, or if we're all just floatin' around accidental-like on a breeze. But I, I think maybe it's both, maybe both happening at the same time.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 18:24:00 (EST)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey..
Message:
In the early '90s Saturday Night Live had a Poetric/Prose Skit called 'Deep thoughts...By Jack Handey'. It featured incredibly dumb and disjointed Poems...made funnier by their attempt at Profundity.

There was a cast member back then named E Whitley Brown (or something like that). I had heard that he was a premie and had created the Skit based on Maharaji's Poems. Anyone know anything about that???...

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:50:26 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Jack Handey was Al Franken
Message:
And I think you mean E. Whitney Brown, who was on SNL but was never a premie, as far as I know.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:46:34 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Just for fun, my analysis
Message:
The future does not know about you, and the past has forgotten you. Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

{Tongue in cheek} or maybe not, this could be interpreted as an inside glance into m's psyche. Musing over the way he views his past, predicting his own future.

the past has forgotten you.

Sounds like he is speaking of his own hopes for his past revision system to actually work and the LOTU, DLM, stuff, etc. is forgotten buried.

Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

This sentence seems like he is fearfully pondering his own future, Precarious, walking a thin line, no elbow room.

Propagating bunko juju knowledge in the age of real information has him freaked out.

You just have to look real hard, read between the lines to get his real meaning Joe.

Brian the proof reading psychoanalyst

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:17:23 (EST)
From: Andrea Eriksonn
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, it's so EASY to understand...
Message:
... you really were listening with your 'doubtmaker', not your heart.
Let me explain. For example:

The future does not know about you, and the past has forgotten you. Precariously, on a thin rope, you walk. There is not much elbow room.

This is to make you paranoid (for your own good, of course). You think you are o.k., and you forget about The Master. But in reality, nobody cares about you, at least not enough to remind you to breath and be grateful. Only the Master can do that, which is why you NEED Him, and should never doubt Him. If you do doubt Him, you may just slip right off that thin rope, and end up like decomposing vegetable matter, or even worse, as a complaining ex-student posting on F7.

There is no room for error. Your existence isn't a compensatory body that tries to compensate for all your mistakes. Life is not a shock absorber. Life is not a rubber sole on your shoe. Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas. Life is none of these things.

I just can't believe you don't see the profound message here, Joe. The Teacher is clearly explaining that we need Him. There is NO ROOM for ERROR - so we'd better watch out, and stay close to He Who Never Makes Errors! He's not called the Perfect Master for nothing, you know. Without The Master, we are just fish caught in a net, happy that we're going to have our heads cut off. How could anyone doubt that?

And of course he is right to tell us that life is not like rubber products. He's saying that even though you are a premie, shitty things are going to happen in your life, because life is not a shock absorber, shit happens. So when shit happens in your life, even though you are following Him, it's not his fault. It's lifes fault, which is why you need Him, even though he can't stop the shitty stuff from happening anyway. He's not here to solve your problems, but here to remind you that you NEED HIM. As He wisely says, ''No man has ever saved himself''. And don't start nit-picking, like asking ''saved from WHAT?'' All premies know the words are not important.

You need to begin first by recognizing this breath. In theory, it should be incredibly simple for the living to understand the value of the breath because without that, there would be nothing. Without that, you would merely turn blue. Without that, your brain would not function, your eyes would not function, your ears would not function, your hands would not function, your heart would not function, your kidneys would not function: nothing would function. You would think that there would be a recognition of its importance, but there isn’t. Everything else comes in between - all the concepts, all the ideas, all the preferences.

Now this part is SO important, SO profound. You see, NO ONE ELSE in this world will tell you how important it is to breath, and be aware of it. He's told us many times, that NO ONE ELSE will tell us about the breath. All those yoga teachers who teach the techniques to just ANYONE, and don't ask for money, are just charletans who are not supporting Maharaji's work. People need to be reminded of the importance of their breath, but if they don't hear it from You-Know-Who, then it isn't worth Jack Shit.

Maharaji 'saves' us from all those ideas, concepts and preferences that come between us and our breath. And you can't buy that in a book somewhere, or have some yoga teacher or friend show you how to concentrate on your breath, because Maharaji doesn't make any money when that happens, which means his important work and and lifestyle are not supported. That is just plain WRONG. That's also why the techniques are secret, to prevent that sort of thing from happening. He is so wise!

And you go on and on about the techinques, you are SO unsyncronized! I mean EVERY thoroughly modern PWK knows that the actual techniques themselves are really quite incidental. That's why they've ended up on DVD, the Teacher is tired of talking about them, he'd rather talk about Himself and how we need to be paranoid about thinking we don't need Him. THAT is what is important.

As the Master has evolved over the years, he's given less and less importance to the techniques, and more and more importance to Himself, to the point where he makes very few claims about the techniques at all anymore, because they are unimportant without Him. The Gift means NOTHING without the Gift GIVER, who is so much more important than the Gift. If you had Kept In Touch like you were supposed to, you would know that. So don't talk to me about the techniques. I never talk about those, THAT sort of thing is for Churchladies.

If you weren't so busy being unsyncronized and filtering out the Good, I wouldn't have to explain all this. But I do explain, because I am kind and good, and not in a cult. But don't you try and trick me by asking me questions! I'm following the Teacher's example, and letting you know beforehand, that I DON'T WANT ANY. That was so thoughful of Him, and now it's thoughtful of me too!

Andrea Eriksonn,

- Who know's for sure that life isn't confusing when you only Consider This, not THAT, and who knows that rubber products will always fail you, but The Master never will, because it's not His fault that the elastic band in your pajamas always breaks eventually. As Maharaji once said, "Don't thank God, thank the Master." And I thank Him that I'm not in a cult! :)

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 21:53:28 (EST)
From: Andrew Davidson
Email: None
To: Andrea Eriksonn
Subject: $$$ BEST OF FORUM $$$ [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:09:45 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: M doesn't actually say anything
Message:
Hi Joe. Good points you raise. I think people (or more specifically, premies) find M inspiring because they are not listening with their critical faculties at all, they are projecting onto him that he is the Lord of the Universe (and whose idea was that?) and therefore ANYTHING that M said or did would be constituted to be inspiring. In the past, when I was under that spell, even the slightest glance from him would be enough to send you into rapture for days. I remember one time when Dennis Murphy (M's cook) brought me back in some tinfoil some half-eaten gulab jamuns which I had made for him and I was blissed out of my gourd that the LORD had actually eaten something I'd cooked. Now, under normal circumstances what would be one's reaction to some sloppy, half-eaten leftover food presented to you in tinfoil?

I, personally, have listened to thousands of hours of his satsang, and transcribed many, many of the speeches, and there really is nothing memorable said in it at all. Just surrender the reins of your life to Guru Maharaj Ji and all will be well. (Back when he was saying that more overtly than he is now. I guess now it's just surrender the details of your credit cards to Maharaji the Master and all will be well [for him].)

Your friend was still in possession of her faculties and not under the cult spell of phoney devotion and hence was able to see it so clearly for what it is (mind-numbing drivel with no real content whatsoever). As any thinking person would when they initially come into contact. Hence the lengthy 'aspirant' process which helps shut down those critical faculties and slowly steeps one in the brainwashing necessary to get into 'that feeling' and find M inspiring. I remember it took me several satsang meetings to finally 'get it'. Everyone's initial reaction is almost invariably 'Huh??'

If you don't somehow see and listen to him through the filter of his supposedly being divine, there's no way anybody could find what he says inspiring. The nightly news reader on television is more inspiring, really. In fact, I think his talk is specifically oriented towards shutting down those critical faculties, because it tends to go around in circles and never really comes to any logical point and is delivered in an arrogant and sneering fashion which implies you know nothing and are a dummy (because you're not blissed out all the time) and he is somehow in possession of more wisdom than you. It's patronizing in the extreme.

Hope all's well with you, look out for a Christmas card from me in the mail,
Joy

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:48:48 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Well done, Joy and (OT)
Message:
If you don't somehow see and listen to him through the filter of his supposedly being divine, there's no way anybody could find what he says inspiring.

That really sums it up, Joy. You have to have the mindset FIRST. After that, you would be inspired if he just drooled.

I already got your card. Man, you are getting things done early! Have a great holiday.

So, it appears definite that Kevin and I are going to Eng, Scotland and Ireland, but not until May-June, I think leaving Memorial Day weekend. Kevin wants to do a walking trip on the Dingle Peninsula in the middle, which I think is about 8 days. So, it will be England first, followed by Wales, then Ireland, then a ferry from Belfast to Scotland, then back to London and home. Think we can do that in 3 weeks? I do want to see you, so that will likely be either at the beginning or the end of the grand tour.

Getting this committment has been a major victory for me. Kevin has been unwilling to take a longer vacay due to his relatively recent position at the Tides Foundation. But I eventually won him over.

So, it looks like Cuba is out and the British Isles are IN.

In the meantime, maybe I can come up and see you in the States when you are back.

When we went to see 'The Closet,' I was reminded of all those many French and German films we went to see during our decompression from the ashram and the cult. While 'The Closet' was great -hysterically funny, it appears, unfortunately that the French film industry has gone to hell, another victim of Hollywood, I am afraid.

BTW -- Watched Ab Fab on Monday night. They had a rerun of my favorite episode, the one where they go to Morocco and Patsy sells the daughter into white slavery. So funny.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:56:01 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:
Don't forget to check out the hometown of me, Moley, Merseybeat, Magiclara, Larkin and Loafji.

'A splendid time is guaranteed for all...'

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 23:48:39 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:
I might be in your neck of the woods around June, possibly the same time as Joe. I'm helping some friends make a documentary on Ken Campbell who, I think, is from Liverpool (Sci Fi Theatre etc.).

If so, perhaps I might invite myself to join Joe, you, et al.?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:32:10 (EST)
From: Ken Campbell
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:
Great actor/producer
Really funny antagonist for Basil Faulty
when he gets Polly to pretend to be Sybil
:)
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 06:56:19 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nige@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Barbara
Subject: Course you can come, Barbara...
Message:
Amazing you are doing a documentary on Ken Campbell. Fantastic guy. Did you ever see him as 'Oscar' in Brookside?

Will you be meeting him? Can you bring him along too..?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 11:45:14 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Course you can come, Barbara...
Message:
I've seen Ken C. in a movie where he plays a hotel clerk (can't remember the name), and I have a tape of one of his one man shows. I've got his CD Won Ketonka (sp??), about his visit to the islands where the inhabitants worship the Duke and Duchess of Edinburgh and his riffs on pidgin English. I just printed out a 400 page thesis on Ken which I have yet to dive into.

Since my friends think my humor etc. is similar to his, they want me around when he's being interviewed, so if I can steal him away to join us, that'd be tres fun.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:21:01 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: That would be SO COOL
Message:
It would be great to see you there, Barbara, and maybe we can get Joy to show up as well. And please, bring Ken along. I'm sure you would have pithy things to say about the ex-Lord of the Universe.

The general outline of the plans is leaving Memorial Day weekend and connecting up with the Brits either early in June, or maybe later on the way back. No firm plans yet, so maybe we can wait to hear when you are there and plan accordingly.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 15:32:59 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, indeedy
Message:
One of the producers is going over in January to do some background work, so I'll have a better idea of the time frame when she returns.

Would def be fun.

I've always wanted to do a walking tour since I love to wander around like that. Your trip sounds great. Hope the timing works out, too.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:02:19 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Twixt Scotland and London...
Message:
Yes, I did think of that. Maybe we can work something out, maybe with Joy included. I didn't realize all those exes were in the same vicinity.

Are the flags still at half-mast?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:59:11 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Flags at half-mast..?
Message:
Not while Liverpool FC are three points clear at the top of the premier league for the first time in a decade...

But many sad faces and nostalgic reminiscences for sure. And the Town Hall flag was at half-mast on Saturday.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:23:26 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Excellent post, Joy
Message:
So well said. A++ (I am the middle of a major marking binge and writing like yours craps on the tedious drivel I have to deal with). Moley says she'll give you a bell in the next couple of days.. (can you email your phone no. again, Thanks.)
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:50:13 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas.
Message:
You're absolutely right about the relatively content-free nature of M's speeches. What a rambler.

I'm not sure he's talking about death in those two snippets you quoted, about 'elbow-room' and 'life is not a shock absorber.' I think he's talking about the need to be fanatically one-pointed, to not leave room for doubt in the mind, etc. It's the fear-mongering that is the stick that accompanies the carrot of Knowledge.

If you space out, you see, and get involved in 'the world' instead of servitude to God in the Flesh...that is a very dangerous thing. You will lose everything. He's mentioned 'rotten vegetables' and the like a few times, but usually he speaks in code, like he does here, to avoid being nailed on the charge of threatening his followers with hell or damnation or something like most religions do to help keep the faithful queuing up with their donations.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 19:55:19 (EST)
From: such
Email: banana@nude_eden.org/y
To: Gregg
Subject: what pajamas? hohoho [nt]
Message:
we don't need no stinkin' pj's! hahaha
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:58:48 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: It's not, Oh well , there goes that concept nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:05:53 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas.
Message:
Interesting. I thought about that too. Kind of the 'tightrope' of being focused. I think it was sometimes referred to as 'the razor's edge.' If that's true, it's even more ridiculous because it's not supposed to be about fear of falling. According to M, I understood it was just about 'enjoyinglife.'

I think the point is, it's not about anything except connection to the uberlord.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 07:38:23 (EST)
From: Yoko
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Life is not an elastic band on your pajamas.
Message:
It's more like a plastic ono band when you are on the 6 lane freeway headin to the court of love at the feet of the master tree who looks down at all the weeds as there is only one true master at any one time who, of course, is timeless as well as being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent
The Big Giant Head
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 12:18:44 (EST)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Yoko
Subject: That could be a rap song.
Message:
well done
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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 16:47:50 (EST)
From: berni
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: That could be a rap song.
Message:
They don't call me the mutthha JJ KOOL-j XP(that's ex-premie to you ole fogey dudes) for nutthin
I say thanx but I'm too hard and cool
b
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:45:00 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Great post, Joe..
Message:
Stay tuned for further thoughts - very closely related to your thread (ie., why is it there are no 'writings' of the corpulent Muddlehead avaiable to the needy public?
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:49:01 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: How to Listen to Satsang...
Message:
Hi Joe,

I remember when I was an aspirant back in '75, I was told that ''it'' meaning satsang was not about the words, but about the communication between the satsang giver and receiver. ''Don't worry if you don't understand something that's said, the understanding will come to your heart, this is not like regular communication, but from soul to soul.'' Well, I ate that one up obviously because I received k and joined the ashram.

This was a rationalization for all those muddled and nonsensical words from not only Maharaji but any premie who stood up to speak. It was an explanation that satsang, company of truth, was from one heart to the other, and the words were virtually meaningless. Juju. I remember folks would say stuff like ''Oh that person's so clear.'' Supposedly, the more one did meditation and service, the more clear a premie became. Pure BS.

Later, in 1997, when I tried to go back and revisit my connection to m, so many changes had taken place and no one was allowed to speak about anything. I thought (very naively), that as a premie who had been around during the devotional years and had returned, that some kind of explantion of all the changes would be given to me, either by a community coordinator or an instructor, i.e., why premies don't give satsang anymore, etc. But noooo. All I was told was to listen to Maharaji's videos/tapes and all the answers would come to me. I was especially given dirty looks when I mentioned I had been around M during the Deca years. I couldn't figure that out. Secrecy and juju again.

Well, no answers came, and here I am.

Revelations did come, but not exactly what Maharaji would have wanted me to discover. One drip came before I read EPO because of all the secrecy, unreasonable demands for money, and the lack of care for old time premies returning. Part of that drop included the elitism within the cult such as the apparent special attention given to big donors.

The second drip was my trip to Montreal to see him for the first time in 16 years. I felt absolutely nothing. I looked around after the program and many premies were in a trancelike state with that glazed over look in their eyes. I didn't have it. I didn't feel it. Nada. Nothing. No connection whatsoever! There was chaos in the Divine Sales area though, pushing, shoving, and more dirty looks. Glad I never paid for that program LOL!

The final drip was that horrendous ''satsang'' which I heard live over a satellite feed where m tore into premies about not being grateful enough to him for everything he has done, i.e., he saved our lives. Actually, that was the first time I heard him mention Phase II (now called the 'it's time for me phase.' He proclaimed that he had fulfilled Shri Maharaji's agya by bringing k to the world (yeah) and that Phase II would inlude training sessions for premies who wanted to be part of the team for propagation (sure). Yet he was vague about it and didn't get into details, but they would be forthcoming.

He cursed a lot (it was live and unedited) and was in such a pissy mood I just left after the feed very very angry at him. My first thought driving home was ''how dare he talk to me like that!'' I also thought, ''when has he shown premies gratitude for everything sacrificed for HIM?'' That video was edited.

I think because I had worked in the world, especially my employment as a Personel Director for a large law firm, without any contact with m or premies for 16 years, that I had grown older and wiser...even wiser than I ever thought him to be. Lawyering is so much about words and clear writing. I learned very much from working for and with attorneys, so I was more tuned into the words than some magic I was supposed retrieve from watching m on tv. What is this bullshit I asked myself? Even my husband (poor guy) who I had earlier insisted watch videos fell asleep during them at home. I took him to an intro program. Nothing. He would comment about how simplistic m was said stuff like ''Gee, Cynthia, I always knew a sunset is beautiful, a rose smells wonderful, what is this guy trying to sell?''

I'm grateful that once I got to EPO my doubts were confirmed and validated. I'm especially grateful I never got my husband initiated into the cult.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:38:58 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: All
Subject: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT)
Message:
I just watched Politically Incorrect. The main topic was John Walker, a 20 year-old American Taliban fighter who was captured in Afghanistan. The question was to what extent is he responisible for treason. Although the panel considered his age as a mitigating factor, no one seemed familiar with cults and their influence. In fact, the word cult wasn't even mentioned.

Walker got interested in Islam at 16 and found his way to Pakistan to study, eventually joining the Taliban. This guy had some very bad luck.
[ White Boy Goes Taliban ]

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:11:02 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT)
Message:
Although the panel considered his age as a mitigating factor, no one seemed familiar with cults and their influence. In fact, the word cult wasn't even mentioned.

Walker got interested in Islam at 16 and found his way to Pakistan to study, eventually joining the Taliban. This guy had some very bad luck.

Well Rick, I've been saying for some time that this process isn't all that mysterious to most of us, and that we have an understanding that most of the public, and policy professionals, lack. But every time I make such a statement I get slapped with people who want to emphasize the *differences* between Maharaji's cult, and this or that cult of Islam. In some very important sense a cult is a cult is a cult.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 03:33:52 (EST)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT)
Message:
Scott:

You're more connected to people in the know in the DC area than most, or any, of us. Have you ever brought up the cult aspect of the Taliban to the people you know? I'd be curious what their response is. There's a new career path for you...(not that you're looking). ~)

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Date: Thurs, Dec 06, 2001 at 17:11:39 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: White Boy Goes Taliban (OT)
Message:
I've suggested it to a few people, but haven't garnered much interest. The main issue, I think, would be to demonstrate how or why the present paradigm could lead to dangerous misjudgments, or how the cult paradigm might provide more leverage over the problem. Mix cults with nationalism and you've got a serious problem on your hands. And to be honest, Jerrold Post thought of this long before I did, though I'm not above upstaging him if I can think of a powerful tag.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:32:35 (EST)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Not totally OT...
Message:
The Taliban always struck me as more akin to a cult than to a state. John Walker could have been one of us at twenty, searching for meaning in life and mistaking fanatical certainty with actual truth.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:02:29 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: yep,he went whole-hog gung-ho WPC
Message:
yep, that kid went whole-hog gung-ho Taliban WPC -- after being incited by the cult priests. kinda like da 'holy family' inciting Fakiranand, Fletcher, et al to assassinate reporter Halley, or marji's network of faithful minions plotting dat participatory cyber-terrorism against da apostate infidels... to earn their ticket to everlasting salvation.

According to a friend in Marin County's skid row, that's NOT the same Johnnie Walker he's known and loved all these years!

Peace and lentils,

PS btw, we've had several threads already discussing the similarities and parallels of these cults.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 11:32:05 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: 'IT' is coming (not OT)
Message:
No not that 'IT' but the new software.

OK, OK, I thought it would be quicker but I've a large learning curve before I can get my new domain up and running. This will include new software for the forum and lots of server space for anyone who wants it (related to the topic, of course.)

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Each of these features may be enabled by the administrator independently of the others:

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Messages are organized in categories

Register and protect your identity with a password

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Private discussions between any two registered users.

Chat function allows realtime commuciations between members.

Submit your links to the forums links section.

Once logged in, you do not need to enter your user name again during the session.

The ability to modify your own posts.

The ability to delete your own posts.

The ability to prevent replies to any of your posts

The ability to collapse/expand, close/open your threads.

The ability to send/receive email notifications for new posts.

The ability to upload a file when you post, which is then automatically linked. If a .gif or .jpg image file, it will be displayed automatically as thumbnails, using the iconizer.

Identify new posts easily (by different color)

The ability to use HTML in the message body (HTML will not work in the Subject field).

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The ability for the message body to be empty, sometimes called NT (No Text) posts.

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Admin activities are logged with IPs and resolved hostnames.

Forbidden word & name features can prevent posting of unsuitable language and names and automatically ban users who have a predetermined number of violations. Banned user will find it hard to get back in.

Detection and prevention of "posting bombs". E-mail alarm of possible attacks is sent to admin.

Two level administration - administrator and moderator. Administrator has all rights while moderator has those assigned by the administrator. Moderator rights always exclude the ability to configure the message boards.
Pre Moderation. When enabled, messages must be first reviewed and approved by moderator before showing up in the board.

User registration. Users can be required to register and login to post and for other functions.

Email validation on user registration. If enabled, when user registers, an e-mail is sent to user provided e-mail addresses with a unique activation link to activate the account. The user may also need to acknowledge acceptance of the forum rules.

Users will find themselves exposed if they try to assume multiple identities. All names used by a poster are indicated on individual message pages posted by that same person.

Visit counters. The Board can track and display number of visits to a message.

Statistics. Compute and display posting statistics.

Email notification of new messages to a set of e-mail addresses, of responses to orginal posters.

Many more....

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 20:00:23 (EST)
From: salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: is that it?
Message:
does't cook for ya?
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 16:48:02 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Sounds Spendeeeeey,
Message:
I don't mind chipping in, You can count on my support Gerry
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 20:15:31 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Re: Sounds Spendeeeeey,
Message:
I'm a pretty good shopper, Brian ;)
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 15:36:08 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Lots of bells and whistles
Message:
I hope we can have a transition phase between forums for those of us who freeze up when faced with new bells and whistles.
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:48:05 (EST)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: does it come with da Ginzu steak knives?
Message:
yes, that's not all. besides the Vegematic, you'll receive this set of carbonized steel Ginzu knives. Look - see how easily it cuts through a soft tomato!

now, how much would you expect to pay for all this? operators are standing by, and if you call right now, you'll also receive these non-stick pie and cookie pans...

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:27:58 (EST)
From: don
Email: None
To: All
Subject: miami event
Message:
<< Back Continue >>

Contributions beyond the suggested registration amount are welcome and important to the financial success of the event. If you wish to make an additional contribution, please select an amount from the options below. It will be added to your total.
The registration fee is $120.

None Selected
$25 Extra Contribution
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If you requested translation on the previous page, please check-off the Translation Contribution option to contribute $15 toward the cost of providing translation.
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Processing your payment.
This may take up to 60 seconds.

Thank You.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 05:53:45 (EST)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: don
Subject: Translation
Message:
Contributions beyond the suggested registration amount are welcome and important to the financial success of the event.

Contributions beyond the suggested registration amount are welcome and important to the financial success of MAHARJI

(The Event?) Yeah right, has he revised his name again.

To make an event profitable is a no brainer even at the low end donation level.

The way these plays for money are inflated and presented by stressing the importance of meeting and exceeding the suggested donation to insure a successful event is nothing more than a cold hard con.

I wonder if any of the premies in the hall will scan a head count, calculate costs, subtract reasonable expenses, multiply attendance and wonder if it all adds up to a successful event.

Are there any PWK's with mathematic skills still in tact?

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:41:37 (EST)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: don
Subject: Re: miami event
Message:
I got this Ev email:

In Boulder, Colorado last week, Maharaji spoke about the upcoming event in Miami:

'I think you will have a good time; A lot of people are coming; It is going to be very special. Something old, something new.'

I also got an email with more goodies from Visions. It was such a fancy email all I had to do to buy was click on a goodie.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 02:44:13 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: virus alert
Message:
Hi. I was just sent 18 53kb virus messages. The attachment was screen saver. Anyone else got these?
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 04:35:30 (EST)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: The 'Pentagone' virus...
Message:
... a.k.a 'gone' or 'goner' virus, disguises itself as a screensaver (scr) file. If it gets opened, it attacks virus scanner, firewall and other security software, by disabling it then deleting the files that hold them. I just read about it on C-NET, it's the latest one. :|
[ The Goner Virus/Worm info... ]
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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 03:46:36 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: virus alert
Message:
Abi,

We've all had these recently, although 18 in one go seems a bit high. If it's the same one (called badtrans), you are at risk if you have IE v5.01 or 5.5 because it can infect your PC without you opening any attachment. If you have either of these versions, Microsoft have a patch that fixes the loophole. If you haven't got either of those versions, then you should be safe as long you follow the usual safety guidelines of not opening attachments you are unsure of.

John.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 12:32:25 (EST)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: It ain't Badtrans, John
Message:
Here's the low-down from http://www.guardian.co.uk/internetnews/story/0,7369,612471,00.html

Latest computer virus is a Goner

Sarah Left
Wednesday December 5, 2001

After battling through the Badtrans worm
last week, computer users are being hit
today by yet another email virus, this one
called Goner.

Experts described Goner as one of the
fastest-spreading viruses they had seen to
date. It is, however, simple to spot and if
users delete the email their computers will
not be infected.

The infected email has the word 'Hi' as
its subject line and the body text reads,
'How are you? When I saw this screen
saver, I immediately thought about you. I
am in a harry (sic), I promise you will love
it.' Its attachment poses as a screensaver
and is labelled 'gone.scr'.

Unlike more complex worms, such as last
week's Badtrans which is still doing the
rounds, the subject line, attachment and
message of Goner do not vary. When
users double click on the attachment, the
infected email spreads itself to all
contacts in a Microsoft Outlook address
book.

Anti-virus companies have issued updates
to block Goner, though users can also
protect themselves simply by hitting the
delete button.

Alex Shipp, spokesman for anti-virus
service MessageLabs, said: 'It's
spreading with tremendous speed and
thousands of users in Britain have already
been sent it. The virus mass mails itself
out through email and attempts to destroy
anti-virus software on computers, which
could prove extremely problematic for
those unfortunate enough to receive it.'

Goner was first detected yesterday
morning, and experts believe it was
created in Europe. The US, the UK and
France are the worst hit of the 17
countries affected so far.

Mr Shipp said: 'We had a handful of
reports this morning but at mid-afternoon
in the UK it went mad. We have had about
30,000 reports and the figure is rising.'

Graham Cluley, senior technology
consultant for Sophos Anti-Virus, said:
'This worm highlights the importance of
being suspicious about anything that
arrives unexpectedly in your inbox ... Even
if the email appears to have come from a
friend it still should not be automatically
trusted.'

A criminal investigation has now been
launched in an effort to track down the
person responsible for the virus.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 14:45:59 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You're probably right
Message:
I don't bother telling anyone about viruses as I assume people don't open attachments that they are unsure of, and if they are foolish enough to do so do, then that's their hard luck. Badtrans is different because it could affect normally careful users, so was worth publicising. All the badtrans emails I've received are consistently 40k so Abi's 53k emails are probably this goner virus.

John.

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Date: Wed, Dec 05, 2001 at 17:45:24 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: yes, it's the goner virus right
Message:
thanks for letting me know. Amazing to get 18 of them though!
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