Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 01, 2001 To: Sep 08, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


Nigel -:- Dawkins' tribute to Douglas Adams (RIP) (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 06:25:08 (EDT)
__ Zelda -:- Thanks Nigel. [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:20:32 (EDT)

Salam -:- hey gerry -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 05:21:24 (EDT)
__ janet -:- thats fine parchment mate! -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 20:20:55 (EDT)

Jim -:- ARe there really only two kinds of premies? -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:54:39 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Why do you care? -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 13:42:16 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Sorry, Jim -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 16:46:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Have Premies read EPO? -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 19:16:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, I think many have... -:- Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 13:42:28 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- Re: ARe there really only two kinds of premies? -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:02:55 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Lots of people with mental problems -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 17:24:09 (EDT)
__ Chuck S. -:- Re: ARe there really only two kinds of premies? -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:09:52 (EDT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Magnificent Post ! ThanksChuck -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 17:49:24 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- A classic explanation, Chuck -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:02:44 (EDT)
__ __ Rick -:- Chuck S. - good post/very clear (NT) -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:50:19 (EDT)
__ Steve -:- Re: ARe there really only two kinds of premies? -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:38:09 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Yes, Jim and Steve -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:05:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Yes, Jim and Steve -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:06:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- No, Rick, I could not -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 14:25:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Yes, Jim and Steve -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:04:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Jim -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 16:31:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- In all likelihood, Bazza was Rob -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 19:29:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Let's not forget the other kind -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:36:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Premies Invest A lot in Maharaji -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:29:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ ggg -:- you're so right -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:38:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ ggg -:- Re: Let's not forget the other kind -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 05:05:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Oh, them - yep that describes most that I know -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:50:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Oh, them - yep that describes most that I know -:- Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 21:20:31 (EDT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- The way I see it! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:24:43 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- See what I mean? -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:45:49 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- See what I mean? -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:45:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Got your mojo workin'? -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:24:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Got your mojo workin'? -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:11:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mojo? -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:40:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Mojo? Juju! -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:19:26 (EDT)

Joe -:- Maharaji from Atlantic City 12/76 -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:21:09 (EDT)
__ Lz -:- Re: Maharaji from Atlantic City 12/76 -:- Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 06:27:16 (EDT)
__ RichMandrake -:- I Second the Motion!!! -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:59:54 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Hi Rich -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:43:06 (EDT)
__ silvia -:- CQ, read Joe's post please -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:38:12 (EDT)
__ __ cq -:- Thanks, Silvia, I've emailed him (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:41:30 (EDT)
__ Passing Through -:- 1976? not far enough! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:27:32 (EDT)
__ __ Pauline Premie -:- True, PT -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:56:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Hahahahahahahaha -:- Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 15:32:38 (EDT)
__ __ Tonette -:- A gentle question PT -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 02:49:55 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Tell that to Dave Wener's family -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:24:39 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Exes have no sense of humor -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:03:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Took it literally and flipped -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:57:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, Disculta -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:33:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ bdtd -:- Re: Thanks, Disculta -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:31:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ bdtd -:- Re: Thanks, Disculta -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:30:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ bdtd -:- Re: Thanks, Disculta -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:27:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ RichMandrake -:- The Michael Nouri Knowledge Hour -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:12:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Good going Rich -:- Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 16:00:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Thanks Rich , I'm envious -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 15:59:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- hey Bin email me [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 17:18:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thank you, Rich for a powerful -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 14:39:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks Rich, a MUST READ!! [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 13:20:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Wow, Must READ **BEST** -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:20:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Great, great post, Rich! -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:10:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sorry -:- psyco computer -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:32:45 (EDT)

Cedron -:- They're here (OT?) -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 19:09:51 (EDT)
__ An Alian -:- Re: They're here (OT?) -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:29:14 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- Don't make me laugh -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:11:24 (EDT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Yeah life in rural England can be boring -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:49:59 (EDT)
__ __ Nigeandmoley -:- laughing our tits off... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:09:43 (EDT)
__ ggg -:- Re: They're here (OT?) -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:40:33 (EDT)

Joe -:- More from Charles Glasser Jr. -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:54:29 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- something positive for -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 19:37:01 (EDT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- My Agenda -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:20:56 (EDT)
__ Chuck S. -:- Joe, I sometimes think we need a FAQ page... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:42:41 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- CG IS VIOLET ELIZABETH! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:02:20 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Excuse me, few question -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:06:57 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: More from Charles Glasser Jr. -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:51:33 (EDT)
__ __ Steve -:- exes have no humour ? What a joke ! nt -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:49:30 (EDT)

Steve -:- I feel nauseated ! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:52:59 (EDT)
__ Selene -:- guess that wasn't an introductory video -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 19:25:23 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Good for you! -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:05:58 (EDT)
__ Moley -:- Welcome Back to Reality Steve xxx nt -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:16:01 (EDT)
__ ggg -:- Re: I felt really sick on . . . -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:31:45 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Thanks to Steve and ggg for being candid -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:03:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Re: Thanks to Steve and ggg for being candid -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:06:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Thanks to Steve and ggg for being candid -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:47:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Pat/Disculta, Hold Hands While You Watch... -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 18:13:01 (EDT)

Joe -:- The Spin and Lies of Charles Glasser Jr. -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:43:32 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Response from Charles -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:26:57 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Geezum H. Crow! -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 13:10:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Glasser Whistles in the Dark -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 15:30:47 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- Re: The Spin and Lies of Charles Glasser Jr. -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:47:50 (EDT)
__ Chuck S. -:- Glasser wants to simplify our motives so...... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 16:35:13 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Of course the concept of ''The Master'' -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 16:03:40 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Re: The Spin and Lies of Charles Glasser Jr. -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:58:02 (EDT)
__ __ Zelda -:- Fabulous, Logical , Useful Post Joe! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:57:52 (EDT)
__ __ Joe -:- Oh, I dunno.....nt -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:11:36 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- People Magazine 1975 article on EPO -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 13:04:52 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: People Magazine 1975 article on EPO -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:46:45 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: People Magazine 1975 article on EPO -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 00:24:04 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- :: not a Lord of the Universe for 26 years :: [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:42:21 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Great work (small typos) -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:10:54 (EDT)
__ Who's the astrologer? -:- Re: People Magazine 1975 article on EPO -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:04:18 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: People Magazine 1975 article on EPO -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:57:08 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- What a throw back [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:41:54 (EDT)
__ such -:- a classic [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 13:54:14 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Amazing -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 13:52:09 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Amazing -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:39:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ a0aji -:- :: issues :: -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:51:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: :: issues :: -:- Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 16:04:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I've seen the smooching pix before... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 16:48:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nick -:- Re: I've seen the smooching pix before... -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:52:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: I've seen the smooching pix before... -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 14:47:20 (EDT)

Vera -:- amaroo fundraiser moved to Arizona -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 08:30:59 (EDT)
__ Tonette -:- My guess -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:56:52 (EDT)
__ __ Tonette get to work -:- or I'm coming across the... -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:03:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Hey, I am the supervisor -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:57:41 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- What does that mean -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:45:21 (EDT)
__ __ Amaroo is to Maharaji -:- as Jonestown was to Jim Jones [nt] -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:45:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Amaroo and Jonestown -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:39:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: sacred *cash* cow :: -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:02:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: :: sacred *cash* cow :: -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 13:50:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: :: sacred *cash* cow :: -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 00:36:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ The Last Resort -:- Amaroo Retirement Community -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:13:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- :: Windows ME? No thank you! :: [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 00:38:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Amaroo Retirement Community -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:40:31 (EDT)

Peter Howie -:- Another good read on groups/cults -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 21:53:07 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Re: Another good read on groups/cults -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 16:00:25 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Very good post -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:52:25 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: Another good read on groups/cults -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:54:15 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- UCSantaBarbara -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 12:22:09 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 06:25:08 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Dawkins' tribute to Douglas Adams (RIP) (ot)
Message:
Fans of either man might find this piece interesting. So too might those people who trash Richard Dawkins and characterise him as somehow hateful and humourless.
[ Dawkins' on Adams ]
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:20:32 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Thanks Nigel. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 05:21:24 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: hey gerry
Message:
when you've finished spending your girlfriend's money do you think you can change the background. It has the color of milk gone sour. A bit of pink is better :)
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 20:20:55 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: thats fine parchment mate!
Message:
i beg your pardon! we here are no common peasants! that which you see on your screen happens to be a replcia of the very finest of her majesty's parchment, not cheap, I'll have you know!!! curdled milk, indeed! have you not breeding, man? do you not recognize good taste when you see it?
...although...you DO have a point, there. perhaps a touch of the blush of dawn WOULD warm it, just a tad..
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:54:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: ARe there really only two kinds of premies?
Message:
Thinking about this last night, I'm wondering, are there really only two kinds of premies? Those amenable to rational discussion about Maharaji and those who aren't?

Put another way, are there any recent ex premies who once indulged in the specious inanities of premies like PT and all the rest? I'm not sure if there are. It seems that there are lots of people like Chuck or Steve or Brian Smith or BTDT -- lots -- who were exposed to the truth about Maharaji, grappled with it for a bit and then finally succumbed, their dream (nightmare?) shattered, they well knew, by reality. But these all seem to be a breed apart from the premie anonymice, trolls and viscious clowns that post here in Maharaji's defence. Has a single one of them ever broken free? Sadly, I can't think of a single one. Can you?

The implications for this are important. It well might be that there really is no purpose at all in talking with premies. I believe the recent exes mentioned above have generally said that it wasn't the dialogues as much as the hard facts we've exposed about Maharaji that made a difference. If that's the case, then maybe there really is no cause to talk with them, except for the sheer cathartic pleasure (pain?) of it all.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 13:42:16 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why do you care?
Message:
Jim,

I've no illusions that I'm going to get the CDs of the world see the light. Heck, I don't even really care if they do or not. I don't even know what the fucking light for them is. They seem happy with what they have. Are you happy with what you have? But that's really beside the point. The point is that I, myself, was never anything like PT or CD. I was a miserable fucking premie. I was just in it becasue I didn't know what else to do with my life and somehow fell into the trap of believing that following Maharaji was my life's purpose.

But I never enjoyed it. I wonder if there are other hapless souls like that out there. If there are, those are the ones I try to reach, the ones who just aren't getting anything out of it, and would be better off to let go of it. Maybe like me, they just need a little nudge, a little plea toward rational thought from somebody who's been there. Hell, I know for myself that to make sense of being a premie is incredibly hard to do, especially if you're not having the 'experience' that guys like CD, PT, Carlos, and all the rest keep raving about.

So, as far as I'm concerned, they can have their 'experience'. Life's short and whatever the 'experience' is, it'll be over soon enough. In the long run, what difference does it make? If they want to live their lives following some guru, who cares? What is it to you or me or anybody else if that's what people really want to do? The only unfortunate thing about cults is that lost vagabonds have a tendency to get caught up in them. Some, apparently, like the trap and don't see it as being one. I live on a different planet from them. Others, the ones I care about and can relate to, are miserable in their trap, and need help to break free from it. That's where EPO is a life saver. Thank Gawd for it. I'm almost certain I'd still be trapped if it wasn't for it. It's true I was teetering when I got here, and maybe the timing was just right, that's why I was so able to make a quick break, but if you had caught me a couple of years earlier while my faith was still strong, maybe I wouldn't have responded so quickly.

Maybe that's all it really boils down to. Maybe the timing's got to be right. People have to be leaning toward a break from the cult before you can help them make it. Otherwise, you're banging your head against the wall. But one thing you should be aware of is even if you're not getting through to the premie you're arguing with, there are lurkers looking on, and you never know how many of them you might be helping. You do good work here. Keep it up.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 16:46:11 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Sorry, Jim
Message:
I didn't get the full gist of your post before I put my two cents in. But I think my last paragraph is the way I stand on this issue. It's a matter of timing. People change. There isn't an ex who wasn't once a premie. Were we incapable of being rational then? That's the question, eh? I don't know. I think probably so. So much is invested in Maharaji. Personally, I don't think I would have much to do with EPO when I was a premie if I wasn't ready to hear it. I think the premies who hang out here and argue with exes are missing something. Is it just the ability to be rational? Beats me. But I think if they're really dedicated to Maharaji they're wasting their time here. The only reason I can see for a premie to be here is to try to undo the damage done. But they only make it look worse for Maharaji by attempting that. They should know that, but they don't. Stupid? Or just the result of having on cult blinders? I don't know.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 19:16:40 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Have Premies read EPO?
Message:
I don't know if the current LG premies have read EPO. I posted a challenge for them to correct any inaccuracies, and one did quote from the history of Maharaji coming to the west, but I doubt if any of them have actually spent a few hours reading what's there. Whether that's through fear (as it was for me at first), or just an irrational belief that it's all lies, I don't know.

Have any premies reading this read EPO?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 13:42:28 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes, I think many have...
Message:
Then, their eyes glaze over, and unable to respond to anything about the substance of what's there, they start screaming 'lies' and 'hate' like Glasser does and Pia did. I think many premies have read it. There isn't much there astounding. The history is well known to most premies, at least those who have been around awhile. It's only the Mishler, Donner and Dettmers information that is new to a lot of premies, but a lot of premies knew that too.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:02:55 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: ARe there really only two kinds of premies?
Message:
Jim,
An old debate we had on forum I or II was if there was any predisposition or characteristic to a person who joined a cult. You and some others were sure there wasn't; that it was just a random occurance and that anyone could've ended up following maharaji. Myself and some others thought there was a psychological profile of some sort that contributed to the vulnerability necessary for maharaji to penetrate.

The gap that separates the two types of premies we see on the forum nowadays might point to two types of people who joined maharaji in the first place. Those whose involvement was peripheral in terms of psychological compensation and those who supported a real form of their own craziness with maharaji's babble.

The frustration in dealing with the premie anonymice isn't much different than dealing with mentally unstable people who aren't in a cult. I've thought for years that these premies are just using the cult to reinforce their own mishegas.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 17:24:09 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Lots of people with mental problems
Message:
There were always lots of people with mental problems who were premies, and I'm sure that's still true. In the 80s, Miami was overrun with premies who had serious mental problems, and I was always having to deal with them. I think the cult tended to attract people who had problems and were looking for a way out.

Once in the cult, however, they were disdained, abused, and rarely given any help. They were just a problem for 'security.'

My ashram roommate in San Antonio, who tried to castrate himself, could be violent at times: the DLM powers that be had him committed to a mental institution, this, after he had donated all his money to Maharaji. Then he was sent to live with his father and neither the mission, or Maharaji wanted anything to do with him.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:09:52 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: ARe there really only two kinds of premies?
Message:
When I first learned about EPO, which was not long after I got onto the internet (1998), it supprised me a little, but not much. M had acknowledged that he had critics, but maintained that he had many more friends than enemies, and his critics simply mis-understood him.

I didn't know alot about M's past, or what he had said pre-1980's. I didn't care if he took drugs, drank, or had an open marriage. I had always rather liked the idea that he was a ''naughty'' guru, instead of some boring old fart in saffron robes saying ''none of this, none of that''. I thought most of EPO was just gossip anyway, and not that much different from what I already knew.

Still, it was also a place where you could possibly hear NEWS about M, news that you would not here from official chanells. I was sure many churchladies probably went there too, to get the latest gossip. So I looked in on it from time to time.

When I read the Bob Mishlere interview, I was sympathetic. I started learning a lot about the pre-1980's history of M that I had never known. I made lots of excuses for M in my mind, because he had been so young. I reassured myself that things had changed a lot since then.

Reading about the Rhadasoami Roots was facinating. At first I thought, ''See, M. really HAS stripped away a lot of the religion. This is GOOD.'' But as I understood the Indian Background more, I began to see that a lot of the religious morality and rules had been stripped away, but much of the religious belief system was intact, and in fact, M was reinforcing parts of it and bringing it back full strengh, especially the ''Master'' stuff, which was making me uncomfortable.

I would read some of EPO, then give it a break, and assimilate it. Pat and I would discuss it. While I didn't mind at all that M would drink alcohol, it was not good to hear that he drank himself unconcious sometimes, and had to be carried up to bed. While I didn't care if he had a mistress, (in his culture, his own father had TWO wives, after all), the idea that he would use his position to have one-night stands with female premies sounded sordid.

The Jagdeo thing was disturbing. How could he be indifferent, since he had kids of his own? And even if I couldn't be sure about all those things, there was the Elan Vital revisionism. I could see that actual lies were being told.

When I made inquires about financial records, about how my donations were being spent, there was a wall of secrecy that could not be penetrated. All these things made me begin to look at M more objectively.

I waited for M to elaborate about his critics and their misunderstandings that he would refer to occassionally. I thought, surely there ARE explanations for all this, and he would explain. I waited. And waited. He never did. I doubt he ever will. How can he? If most, or even half, of what's been said about him is true, how can he just explain it away?

I'd like to emphasize that we didn't just believe everything we read, any more than we would believe everything we were told by the premies, Elan Vital, or our local politicians. We've always believed it is healthy to be skeptical, and that scrutiny often reveals the truth about anything. We were helping out with video events and attending commitee meetings to see for ourselves what was happeing with M and K and the premies, as we heard things were changing for the better, and we really wanted to help.

When Dettemer's revelations happened, they really impressed me. He was not angry or bitter sounding, he was calm, rational, and to the point. He seemed honest, sensible and level-headed, not judgemental or vindictive. All this information came together, not only what we read on EPO, but also what our own experiences on the committee and what we were seeing on the current videos was telling us. M's admonishments to ''leave no room for doubt in your mind'', started to sound very self-serving. His inability to admit mistakes, the secrets, the lies I was sure about, all began to make me realize that I didn't know M at all. With all this new information, we began to connect the dots, and the picture that was appearing was not very pretty.

It ultimately lead to us leaving the guru. It was painful at first, but with time it just got easier. We've been through a lot of stuff over the last eight months, but it really has gotten MUCH better. I'm very glad, and very happy! As hard as the initial pain was, it was worth it.

The reason I've gone into all this is, because you asked, is there really any point talking with the anonymous premies who post here?

When I discoverd the EPO site, the forum did not iterest me. People would argue there, and I didn't like it. I didn't want ANYONE trying to convince me of anything. It held little interest for me. I was drawn back to EPO repeatedly, though. Why? Because I felt, if there was anything there I had to avoid in order to continue being a premie, then my involvement must be based on a falacy. And if THAT was the truth, I needed to know that, even if it was painful.

So I started out giving M the benifit of the doubt. I investigated for myself what I could investigate. I gave him YEARS to explain anything that needed explaining. Then I finally realized that he would never explain, because he couldn't. Because what he has done and is doing will not hold up to scruitiny.

Jim, this is why most of the premies who post here will not engage us in rational discussion either. Their Master can't explain it all away, and neither can they. And if they do try, it just doesn't hold up to scrutiny. As long as they are determined to ''leave NO ROOM for doubt in their minds'' regarding M, they will never be able to hear what we are saying, and will problaby feel hurt and blame US.

I am not a know-it-all, perhaps there are some premies who can be helped and talked throught it. But without that willingness to examine the whole picture, it seems futile. I felt for myself that I HAD to look at what was said on EPO, because if I couldn't, then I was just defending an illusion. I felt the truth would not be destroyed by reading anything. And you know, it wasn't. The truth was I got some good things and some bad things out of my experience with M, the good things were really mine all along, and I could keep them, and the bad I could just let go of and move on.

I personally am not interested in trying to convince any of the premies of anything. The information is all there on EPO. If they can't read it, because protecting what they believe is more important than impartial facts, that's their choice.

I tend to believe there is not anything to be gained from talking to anonymous premie trolls who post here. But I have to admit I could be wrong; there is no ''one size fits all'' way of leaving a cult.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 17:49:24 (EDT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Magnificent Post ! ThanksChuck
Message:
I would not even attempt to elaborate on the many important points you outlined, you covered every nuance and issue that comes to mind in my experience of disengaging myself from the cult and the guru.

You said it all so beautifully Chuck, basically, I had to go through many of the same painful steps of reviewing facts and confronting truths as you did. When the chips did not stack up in favor of reality and logic, I had to reach down inside of myself and do the right thing.

I had to be true to myself, I had to be brutaly honest and admit that no matter how deeply invested I was in the cult belief system and no matter how emotionally attached I was to the guru, I had to find the strength to let it all go.

Going over the last 30 years of personal experience in relation to what I now understood, the cult and the guru mentality just did not make sense anymore, and in hindsight never did. That and the fact that M never came forward in the past or present and probably never will in the furure to address the issues sealed my decision to break free.

I am happy that I did, I wake up a free man today. I am grateful for the information and support that I found from the resourses available on the Internet and the ex-premies who had gone through the exiting process before me.

To my credit I wasted no time in processing the truth about the cult and the guru. However I would not have been able to exit as fast as I did (5 weeks) had I not found the EPO and the forum.

The facts are there to be faced, one has to grow up, let go of daddies hand and stand on their own feet and learn to walk. Walk away and find the courage to face the reality of life on ones own terms without dependancy on a cult, charimatic figure and/or mystical belief.

Life is great! period. Why clutter it up with involvement in a guru and a cult, what a waste.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:02:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: A classic explanation, Chuck
Message:
Ironically, I feel like printing your post out to show to premies I know! Kind of like, 'See? This is a fair, reasonable response.' But, alas ....

Anyway, I think I will do that. No harm having something like this on hand.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:50:19 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Chuck S. - good post/very clear (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:38:09 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: ARe there really only two kinds of premies?
Message:
Hi Jim,

Sadly I'm starting to think that there's no point in discussing the issues with prems until they reach a certain point of detachment. I guess until there's a little doubt there already they'll never be open to believing anything negative about him or the nollij.

My theory is that those of us who come here and are assisted to leave are already almost there. The cracks have formed , the 'drips' have affected the foundations.

Over on LG the general premie consensus is not to believe anything quoted on the EPO site. All those with negative stories about M's behaviour are 'glasserised' as coming from bitter , twisted, out and out liars.

One thing they don't consider is that if it was all lies we could make it much , much worse. Hey guys , lets make up some despicable lies about Mahraji. ' Yeah well I remember the time a few of us ex rated guys were wapping up some smack and coke cocktails.. well Marolyn was getting really out of control you know , wildly horny... anyway.... '

Don't you see premies, that if Glasser's portrayal of exes were true , we'd be really going to town in our drug crazed , insane , lying way?

We could blatantly lie in the way that the premie site CAC did about ex premies.

I've been spending time over at LG , hoping for some meaningful dialogue , on topic. It just doesn't happen. There've been some intelligent articulate spin doctors there , like 'Harry'and a couple of sweety pie , real nice guys . The conditioning is so strong though - they just don't know that a virus has got in there and warped their programs.

It is sad , indeed .

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:05:59 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Yes, Jim and Steve
Message:
I sometimes wondered if the two of you were naive the way you argued with premies on LG. Steve has a point about EPO's effect on people.

I knew about it for a year before posting. I was only receptive to reading it because I had already seen that it was a cult but I still thought that M was blameless. Then I began to see that the problem was not the cult or EV but Rawat. I decided to see what EPO had to say and read Mishler and Dettmers. Still I made excuses. I re-read Mishler and the scales dropped form my eyes. But they were already loose.

If the scales are still tightly glued on the premie will rationalize away everything. And the glue on those scales is their blind love for Rawat.

It reminds me of when my parents used to fight. I always took my mom's side because my dad was a drunken buffoon but god help me if I ever criticised my father to my mother. Suddenly she would turn on me and attack me. No matter how much she saw his faults she hated anyone else to see them. She adored him.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:06:45 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Yes, Jim and Steve
Message:
Pat,
Were you ever capable of engaging in debate the way that the anonymice do? I mean being 100%, absolutely unreasonable.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 14:25:45 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: No, Rick, I could not
Message:
I may have pulled a smug superior trip and evaded the question but usually I know when I'm wrong and am the first to admit it. Sometimes I think the premie trolls and CAC and Glasser's site are really just premie jokes. They have a weird socalled sense of humor which is not at all kind or sociable. In fact they are often bordering on sociopathy and are game-players.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:04:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Re: Yes, Jim and Steve
Message:
Pat,
Were you ever capable of engaging in debate the way that the anonymice do? I mean being 100%, absolutely unreasonable.


---

Yes, Rick, THAT's the question. I've yet to see someone do that dance and later become an ex. Am I forgetting someone?

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 16:31:03 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim
Message:
Rob, the Scotsman. What was his story? Didn't he do a turnaround and become an ex? Or was he just pretending to be an ex? I remember him being pretty bad as a premie; sort of a 'Nil' type.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 19:29:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: In all likelihood, Bazza was Rob
Message:
Rick,

There are many good reasons to believe that Rob, who did claim to break free from the cult at one point before he disappeared for good, was none other than our good friend, Barry Shaw (or 'Bazza'). Bazza's the only ex I know of who's ever claimed to go back, even tentatively, after reading EPO and engaging in the self-education project about the cult available online now. But it looks like he was just playing us all anyway.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:36:53 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Let's not forget the other kind
Message:
Then there's the premie who's the saddest of all. The one who runs screaming from the room when anything thing that even hints at negativity of M is mentioned. This premie has doubt allright but they are too emotionally and spiritually bankrupt to even begin to address the real truth. Man, talk about running from your problems.
It reminds me of a person who has a lump, which they think might be a cancer, too afraid to see a doctor.

Tonette

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:29:42 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Premies Invest A lot in Maharaji
Message:
Actually I was thinking the opposite of those premies being emotionally and spiritually bankrupt to address the truth.

I think they are too emotionally and spiritually invested. We all invested so much, that for me, anyway, I held onto the cult stuff far too long. I was afraid because the fact is that M did cause me to believe his myths and lies to the extent that I gave over everything to him (well, as much as I was able as a human).

Letting go of that is very tough especially if a premie has been engulfed in the 'world of m' for many years.

That's why I think that after breaking free, and subsequently getting my head and heart back, I feel impatience with the ones who don't see and understand the cult.

Arguing with them is fruitless, as I've demonstrated to myself over the past weeks. Especially the interlopers who I have intentionally been nasty to. Sometimes the trolls here piss me off. But it only takes away my own energy, the good energy that I've reclaimed during this process of exiting.

When I first heard about the EPO, I didn't have a computer so I went to a library and was literally shaking when I opened the site. I was so shocked at the language on the forum and the ridicule of m by exes.

I was still trying to be part of that 'world,' and I asked one premie woman, an old timer if she'd seen the site. She looked at me with an expression of absolute fear. NO, she said, I won't go there.

It's the investment that premies make in Maharaji on every level that is tantamount to a long-term intimate relationship. The relationship may have become bankrupt, but the investment is so huge, it's plain old nearly impossible to leave.

My before coffee 2 cents.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:38:39 (EDT)
From: ggg
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: you're so right
Message:
It went even beyond an intimate relationship because we were supposed to have total devotion. So thus the everscrabbling premies trying to get to the front row, do more service, blank out anything not to do with the cult. There are/were still those who cannot see through the script. Who knows why they are still in it. I think I might still be in it if my partner (new Premie) hadn't gotten really angry with me about how he had just discovered how deceiving m and his cronies truly are.

First time I saw the site though. I remember reading someone's journey, it was very, very beautiful incredibly well put, insofar as what part m had played in his life and how he had walked away. It took another year before I was able to logon again. The fear of leaving was tantamount to and worse than getting a divorce because he was supposed to be our all. But the drip had begun, and by staying away from all of it, the whole thing began to unravel for me.

Many premies are still in that 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' which is so bad, and another person I hadn't spoken to in years rang, we spoke about it for a couple of hours, he thought m had made his life really chilled, so he was grateful for being chilled, sad to see he was so chilled, so ill. His script is so convincing, although he's convinced himself that he was never really in it anyway. So he's taken I'm the completely, really messed premie that never got it, can't even get into the premie stakes, but 'I'd like to stance, (because of my humility).' What I call fake 'humility.'

The ridiculousness of it just goes on and on . . .

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 05:05:27 (EDT)
From: ggg
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Re: Let's not forget the other kind
Message:
Too sad for words, a lot and a lot of these - I agree. Friends who can't speak to me now as I have become a betrayer in their eyes!
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:50:06 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Oh, them - yep that describes most that I know
Message:
I emailed my premie friends the CAC site and have not heard from any since and I've known most of them for 30 years. I think they cannot deal with the ugly side of the cult and their brains have frozen up.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 21:20:31 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Oh, them - yep that describes most that I know
Message:
I'll bet that silence you hear is the sad sound of those premies thinking 'that's what they get'.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:24:43 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The way I see it!
Message:
Jim,

Do you remember the second Austin Powers film 'The Spy who Shagged Me' when Austin had his mojo stolen. Well, didn't that fool spend almost the entire film looking for his mojo in the outside world, only to realize at the film's end, that it was inside him, always had been, and it could never be stolen.

That film powerfully sums up the way I feel about Knowledge. Now you can rip me if you want Jim, but I know that this post will help further the discussion here for many exes.

Also check out Psalm 82.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:45:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: See what I mean?
Message:
Dog,

How's your study of brain science coming? What's that? It isn't?

Too bad. What? I can't hear you, Dog. You're what? Sorry, it's a little loud in here. Here, let me turn down my stereo. Okay, that's much better. Now, what were you saying?

The Bible, Dog? The BIBLE?!

Dog, I've got a question for you: if it turns out Maharaji's behind CAC would that affect your opinion of him? Remember, you've already told us that you already think much less of him after the Dettmers revelations and the like. What if you learned that he was actually behind CAC?

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:45:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: See what I mean?
Message:
Dog,

How's your study of brain science coming? What's that? It isn't?

Too bad. What? I can't hear you, Dog. You're what? Sorry, it's a little loud in here. Here, let me turn down my stereo. Okay, that's much better. Now, what were you saying?

The Bible, Dog? The BIBLE?!

Dog, I've got a question for you: if it turns out Maharaji's behind CAC would that affect your opinion of him? Remember, you've already told us that you already think much less of him after the Dettmers revelations and the like. What if you learned that he was actually behind CAC?

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:24:49 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Got your mojo workin'?
Message:
Sheesh, did you read my post? Where is your mojo Jim? Do you know? Okay, I'll give you a hint, it's not in Malibu? Take the 'money' and run old Bud. Okay do what you want. My hunch is that he was behind CAC.

Remember that old satsang about the snake who got Knowledge and started getting beaten up a lot because he was so blissed out and people were no longer afraid of him. He complained to his Master who said he could always hiss.

My experience of Knowledge is not touched by all this. What's the big deal? There are many exes who still meditate and I'm almost an ex Elan Vitaller.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:11:26 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Got your mojo workin'?
Message:
Dog,
That's where maharaji still has a hold on you. It isn't an experience of 'Knowledge' you have. 'Knowledge' is a made up concept, like chakras. If you just consider what you feel in meditation, on it's own, and don't interpret it in any particular way, then there is a big deal. It's always a big deal when there's deception and people get hurt.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:40:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Mojo?
Message:
Sheesh, did you read my post? Where is your mojo Jim? Do you know? Okay, I'll give you a hint, it's not in Malibu? Take the 'money' and run old Bud. Okay do what you want. My hunch is that he was behind CAC.

Talk plain, Dog. Talk plain. Define 'Mojo' because, to me, that means nothing. But yes I did read your post. I asked you about learning something about the brain for a change instead of all this spiritual junk (yes, junk). Are you afraid of science? No? Then why not put aside all the stuff you've been reading for the last thirty years and look at what science has to say about consciousness, the brain, life, who we are? It's a little deeper than Austin Powers, you'll be happy to learn.

Remember that old satsang about the snake who got Knowledge and started getting beaten up a lot because he was so blissed out and people were no longer afraid of him. He complained to his Master who said he could always hiss.

Again, could you say what you want to say plainly please? What?

My experience of Knowledge is not touched by all this. What's the big deal? There are many exes who still meditate and I'm almost an ex Elan Vitaller.

So what are you saying? Are you 'almost' an ex-premie? A former follower of Maharaji?

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:19:26 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mojo? Juju!
Message:
Jim you ask Dog: ''Are you 'almost' an ex-premie? A former follower of Maharaji?''

I've watched you criticise new age mojo juju thinking in exes who are still full of it but who have definitely seen through the gurujism. I've done it myself because of my impatience with new age cliches but I won't do it anymore.

It is enough to me that someone has realized that they are no longer enslaved to a master. The mojo stuff will get sorted out in time as people find their own voices and no longer have to rely on new age or gurujism cliches.

I may find new age mojo tiresome and the result of lazy thinking but gurujism is my main focus of criticism and, when someone finally has the balls to cut their emotional ties to the guru, I will applaud them as I now applaud Dog.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:21:09 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: Kevjo@mindspring.com
To: All
Subject: Maharaji from Atlantic City 12/76
Message:
I still have the tape of Guru Maharaj Ji speaking to the coordinators after a program in Atlantic City in December, 1976. I quoted parts of it a few months ago. That's when Maharaji says that the ashrams are a life-long committment, that anybody who moved out and got married made a terrible mistake (that it was equivalent to blowing your brains out with dynamite), and the like.

All of it is enlightening, especially in light of the lies Maharaji and Elan Vital are spreading now about what Maharaji actually did and said back then.

Anyhow, I have this tape, and I really think it should be transcribed and put onto the EPO site. Would anyone like to 'do participation' and take care of that? Volunteers? My email is above.

Joe

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Date: Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 06:27:16 (EDT)
From: Lz
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Maharaji from Atlantic City 12/76
Message:
Am happy to transcribe ... sent you an e-mail.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:59:54 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I Second the Motion!!!
Message:
Yes...It would be VERY Interesting and Clarifying to read the transcript of that Meeting, Joe. Important Stuff!!...I am hoping that you can get it up on a Separate Page on EPO soon....
By the way thanks for your intelligent and (usually) reasoned posts here. I enjoy and benefit from reading them even when I disagree with you...All the Best...RichMandrake
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:43:06 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: kevjo@mindspring.com
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Hi Rich
Message:
Thanks. We need somebody to transcribe the tape and that's the help I would need at the moment. You can look in the archives from about last March or so, when I quoted some sections and there were vigorous comments from Forum 5.

Thanks for the compliment on the posts and I've enjoyed yours as well. I think the strength of this forum, in stark contrast to any of the premie sites (except LG, which was formed by ex-premies), is that all kinds of viewpoints and disagreements are allowed here, so if you disagree with me, or even if you agree, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Thanks again, and if you know of somebody who can transcribe the tape, please let me know.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:38:12 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: CQ, read Joe's post please
Message:
E-mail CQ about it.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:41:30 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Thanks, Silvia, I've emailed him (nt)
Message:
badaboom
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:27:32 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 1976? not far enough!
Message:
Gee Joe,
Lighten up!
Or do you really think he meant it literally?
I think the root of all ex-premies problems with M and K is that you take everything literally and have no sense of humor.
PT
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:56:47 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: True, PT
Message:
Yes, when Maharaji said he was greater than God, DAMMIT, he was kidding! When he said to surrender our lives to him, he was KIDDING! He didn't mean any of that, it was all a joke. I can't believe you ex-premies took him seriously. The joke is on you!! HAHAHA. You just don't understand his humor and without THAT understanding, you are lost.

I never took the ashram seriously either. That's why I was having sex with the house father and several of the initiators on the roof of the ashram. I also drank and did drugs, and I even ate hamburgers in the basement. I never took any of the rituals seriously either, that's why I used the arti candles to butter my toast, and I used to wipe my butt on the towels we were saving for when Maharaji visited our town. But he never did.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 15:32:38 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Hahahahahahahaha
Message:
Merci! or should I say Mercy. Laughed out loud at school computer. I know they're going to come take me away. Fuck that is so fuckin funny.

Can't believe you answer that clown so well. Shit!

hahahahah

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 02:49:55 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: A gentle question PT
Message:
Okay, maybe we goofed by being affected by M's discourse. So, since we were way too literal, how would you interpret what M was saying at the time? Not to mention his body language and voice inflections that went along with these statements. I'm curious to see how you see it.

Tonette

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:24:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Tell that to Dave Wener's family
Message:
I think the root of all ex-premies problems with M and K is that you take everything literally and have no sense of humor.

You deserve to be punished, PT. But guess what? You are being punished. I have to remember that when I see such insulting garbage. I have to remember that it's you guys, not us, who are paying so dearly. I spent some time with a guy like you yesterday and walked away feeling so sorry for him. I'm sure if we were together in real life rather than here, I'd feel the same for you.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:03:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Exes have no sense of humor
Message:
and take everything literally. Yep. Say what you mean and mean what you say. It's called speaking the truth. Infortunately we were all so naive and trusting that we believed Rawat's lies to the point that people gave him their inheritances and were impoverished when they were kicked out of the ashrams and other's killed themsleves when they found out that the superior power in person was unable to help them. Gee, but it has all been lies and jokes all along. How silly of us.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:57:17 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Took it literally and flipped
Message:
It wasn't funny to me, especially since it was being quoted to me by my bridesmaid as I was getting married to the guy I had been encouraged to move out of the ashram with a few months earlier, when they were trying to avoid the responsibility of all us IHQ premies.

I was in for a penny, in for a pound. I took everything M said completely to heart. It seemed absurd to me to go so far as to be a devotee of a strange, overweight, materialistic guru unless I was absolutely certain that he was my spiritual master, and that therefore I should listen to him implicitly. So his turns and changes of direction were a major mind-and-body-fuck for me. I think that the day I heard that satsang (BTW, the bridesmaid is apparently still married to someone who is rumored to be CW!) was the beginning of a big down-turn in my life - and in the lives of many premies I knew. Although on the one side, things got more exciting and 'high,' with tons of programs and a return of the 'magic,' it was being driven by extremely heavy and abuse satsang by M at most of the programs, and especially at the new 'secret' programs for the higher-ranking ashram premies or instructors or rich premies.

It's not okay that M did this! It was clearly self-serving, as I now understand. He was not concerned about our human wellbeing, and because I believed his certainty that he was the Lord, I overrode myself and my body and became ill.

Many, many people I knew became ill or a bit crazy during this time, especially when M reversed the rules again and closed the ashram and fired the instructors, leaving thousands of people who had dedicated their lives––sometimes leaving spouses and children–– devastated and in various stages of shock. It's my belief that a good proportion of these people are still suffering from PTSD from these shocking experiences of institutional guru abuse, and haven't found a way to validate what they went through and therefore 'get over it.' I think that most people who went through this just moved on, which is a really good idea - I did. But I think that most of them moved on without really integrating their experiences, which leaves a kind of stagnation in part of the self which can lead to depression and an inability to make one's life work. We often meet people on these forums who have just discovered the information and the forums after years and years of being out, doing fine and forgetting about the whole thing. Yet when they actually look at what happened and let themselves feel what they actually felt about it, which was probably suppressed by shock or lack of permission at the time, they frequently report that they feel like they have recovered something.

This is the reason some of us continue to post here, despite having lives and not really caring a hoot about M. I know it seems that we posters are obsessed about him. The people who are sure we are obsessed about M are those who actually are obsessed with him as a way of life, and they can't imagine how it actually is from this side. Having seen through him, he doesn't mean much to us one way or the other, but we are not happy with his behaviors and their effects on parts of ourselves, and on so many other people.

Love kd-feeling rather serious

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:33:00 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Thanks, Disculta
Message:
I'll keep on posting too until Rev Rawat straightens out his act and comes clean. The reason why I am here in the first place is because an aspirant committed suicide in my community last year. He killed himself because he had been watching five months of Rawat videos all saying that he could not come home without the master and needed to be saved from the evil mind and the big bad world by the master.

One does not turn to a master for help if one does not need it. He asked for help and it was not forthcoming. He needed help now not later. He began to feel that he was being led down the garden path. He was told to have patience. He chose to kill himself at the age of 22 instead.

I don't know any completely sane premies. The insanity leads them to think that it's fine for the guru to play games, tell lies and spin revisionist bullshit.

Like Jim, I also feel very sorry for them because it is impossible for me to ever make them believe that, by leaving the master, they will be freeing themselves from enslavement to a cynical, unethical and greedy man. They really have to see that for themselves and they can only see it if they first find sanity and morals inside themsleves.

As long as they rationalize the master's obvious lack of ethics they are themselves unethical or struggling with the insanity of having to deal with conflicts in themsleves.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:31:46 (EDT)
From: bdtd
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Thanks, Disculta
Message:
Jim, I think you have put it in a nutshell....the lack of ethics doesn't matter if they still seem him as THE master. He has carte blanche if he is the man incarnate. The last video I watched was the kit training advertising video. He said grace is courtesy, so now it is all 'courtesy' of the master. If we had just said, back in the old days, according to him, that we loved him to death instead of calling him the lord of the universe, there wouldn't be this confusion today.

Ooops, my fault!

He is the master so he makes and changes the rules. Knowledge and all that comes with it is 'courtesy' of him and it's like borrowing a car. If he wants his car back, then he gets his car back.........So all those people sat there hearing this stuff and it seems justifying to them, that he is the Master magician, waiving his wand of grace, uhhh, COURTESY, and however the game of knowledge gets played, is up to him, and it just doesn't matter. Infact, if we have any brains at all, we would understand he can change the 'rules' whenever and however he chooses.

Remember, that's why we need a living master, to make knowledge alive in the time we are in....... How many times has he said that? Golly, gee.

It is the stupidist video I had ever seen.

Still, yesterday, I was feeling very suseptible to it all. It was that all pervasive pull that I was leaving basically my whole existence behind. It was scary! The vulnerability one is left with in trying to live without premiedom is no easy task.

I realized I honestly had been existing for twenty-eight years with the daily feeling that all I was, was due to knowledge and M. And it didn't make me feel very confident to go out and face my day. Infact, it was crippling and paralyzing. This was the essential thing that had me tied to knowledge and m. Without that, I had no humaness, no identity worth anything, NO FEELING. The trick is, realizing that is me. I can be all that because I always was. What a revelation. But I tellya, it's a powerful tie. And I just don't think premies can give up that tie, that umbilical cord easily. A lot of factors have to be in place for that one piece of information to click and then the whole picture snaps into focus.

The best art exhibit I was lucky enough to attend was the impressionist painters. Up close, they are just brush strokes. Step back a few feet, it becomes a picture. Step waaaaaaaaaay back, and it becomes a crystal clear moment in time. I'm still stepping back, just trying not to trip over my own feet. It's been a long time since I trusted my own two feet.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:30:01 (EDT)
From: bdtd
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Thanks, Disculta
Message:
Jim, I think you have put it in a nutshell....the lack of ethics doesn't matter if they still seem him as THE master. He has carte blanche if he is the man incarnate. The last video I watched was the kit training advertising video. He said grace is courtesy, so now it is all 'courtesy' of the master. If we had just said, back in the old days, according to him, that we loved him to death instead of calling him the lord of the universe, there wouldn't be this confusion today.

Ooops, my fault!

He is the master so he makes and changes the rules. Knowledge and all that comes with it is 'courtesy' of him and it's like borrowing a car. If he wants his car back, then he gets his car back.........So all those people sat there hearing this stuff and it seems justifying to them, that he is the Master magician, waiving his wand of grace, uhhh, COURTESY, and however the game of knowledge gets played, is up to him, and it just doesn't matter. Infact, if we have any brains at all, we would understand he can change the 'rules' whenever and however he chooses.

Remember, that's why we need a living master, to make knowledge alive in the time we are in....... How many times has he said that? Golly, gee.

It is the stupidist video I had ever seen.

Still, yesterday, I was feeling very suseptible to it all. It was that all pervasive pull that I was leaving basically my whole existence behind. It was scary! The vulnerability one is left with in trying to live without premiedom is no easy task.

I realized I honestly had been existing for twenty-eight years with the daily feeling that all I was, was due to knowledge and M. And it didn't make me feel very confident to go out and face my day. Infact, it was crippling and paralyzing. This was the essential thing that had me tied to knowledge and m. Without that, I had no humaness, no identity worth anything, NO FEELING. The trick is, realizing that is me. I can be all that because I always was. What a revelation. But I tellya, it's a powerful tie. And I just don't think premies can give up that tie, that umbilical cord easily. A lot of factors have to be in place for that one piece of information to click and then the whole picture snaps into focus.

The best art exhibit I was lucky enough to attend was the impressionist painters. Up close, they are just brush strokes. Step back a few feet, it becomes a picture. Step waaaaaaaaaay back, and it becomes a crystal clear moment in time. I'm still stepping back, just trying not to trip over my own feet. It's been a long time since I trusted my own two feet.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:27:45 (EDT)
From: bdtd
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Thanks, Disculta
Message:
Jim, I think you have put it in a nutshell....the lack of ethics doesn't matter if they still seem him as THE master. He has carte blanche if he is the man incarnate. The last video I watched was the kit training advertising video. He said grace is courtesy, so now it is all 'courtesy' of the master. If we had just said, back in the old days, according to him, that we loved him to death instead of calling him the lord of the universe, there wouldn't be this confusion today. Ooops, my fault! He is the master so he makes and changes the rules. Knowledge and all that comes with it is 'courtesy' of him and it's like borrowing a car. If he wants his car back, then he gets his car back.........So all those people sat there hearing this stuff and it seems justifying to them, that he is the Master magician, waiving his wand of grace, uhhh, COURTESY, and however the game of knowledge gets played, is up to him, and it just doesn't matter. Infact, if we have any brains at all, we would understand he can change the 'rules' whenever and however he chooses. Remember, that's why we need a living master, to make knowledge alive in the time we are in....... How many times has he said that? Golly, gee.

It is the stupidist video I had ever seen.

Still, yesterday, I was feeling very suseptible to it all. It was that all pervasive pull that I was leaving basically my whole existence behind. It was scary! The vulnerability one is left with in trying to live without premiedom is no easy task. I realized I honestly had been existing for twenty-eight years with the daily feeling that all I was, was due to knowledge and M. And it didn't make me feel very confident to go out and face my day. Infact, it was crippling and paralyzing. This was the essential thing that had me tied to knowledge and m. Without that, I had no humaness, no identity worth anything, NO FEELING. The trick is, realizing that is me. I can be all that because I always was. What a revelation. But I tellya, it's a powerful tie. And I just don't think premies can give up that tie, that umbilical cord easily. A lot of factors have to be in place for that one piece of information to click and then the whole picture snaps into focus.

The best art exhibit I was lucky enough to attend was the impressionist painters. Up close, they are just brush strokes. Step back a few feet, it becomes a picture. Step waaaaaaaaaay back, and it becomes a crystal clear moment in time. I'm still stepping back, just trying not to trip over my own feet. It's been a long time since I trusted my own two feet.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:12:17 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: bdtd
Subject: The Michael Nouri Knowledge Hour
Message:
BTDT, You talked about watching the latest Knowledge Propagation Video with Personal Host and MC Michael Nouri....Ironically it was THAT Video, which I saw maybe 2 months ago...that was the Straw that Broke the Camels Back...I had been limping along carrying that heavy bag of rationalizations and irreconcilable beliefs on my Premie Shoulder...Still waiting for MahaRawat to FINALLY make sense of it all..Still Waiting to be able to FINALLY Surrender to the Living Perfect Master (I know its sick but DEEP Conditionings die hard).Always blaming myself for that chronic..Uneasy feeling...That Something just Wasnt Right..

I then walked in 5 minutes late to the Michael Nouri/MahaRawat Variety Show. MahaRawat was in the middle of explaining that it wasnt HIS fault that people had seen him as the Lord of all Creation...I immediately felt my Blood begin to Boil...This Had ALWAYS Been a sticking point to me...Why doesnt Maharaji JUST TELL THE TRUTH??!!..I had managed to suppress that desire/conflict/confusion to a great degree..But for some reason..THIS Time..to hear Maha/Rawat spout that Bullshit...was INTOLERABLE to Me!!...I found myself cursing myself for being late because I wanted to hear Maha/Rawat's FULL explanation/Deceit and the Church Lady who had called me to tell me about the video made sure to tell me that it was a special 'ONE Time Event'....The Video was segmented..and at the End of the segment Msr. Nouri came on...and very glibly explained what MahaRawat just had said and then briefly a page of bulleted writing came on the screen to spell it out for those of us..who may need to READ the Party line..to memorize it...
I found this all Disgusting!!!..Words fail me in Describing the Very Practiced..Polished yet Oily Doublespeak that Nouri was spouting with a Straight Face (what does this guy GET from it anyway?..Blondes, Cognac and Cuban Cigars?? )and the CLEAR Intend of it was for Maha/Rawat to Brainwash/Condition us Again...To Believe/Spout that Maharaji came to the West with a 'Simple Experience to Share' and it was the MAHATMAS who took that and started pranaming to Him and calling him the Lord...The Savior..All Powerful etc..MAHARAJI THATS AN OUTRIGHT LIE!!!

As The Video went on Nouri explained that we were seeing 'another side' of Maharaji. What I Was Seeing was a Very Smug..Condescending Flippant fat guy..Who was TELLING those poor souls lined up against the Walls in Atlanta How it Is...I Could Actually FEEL the Intimidation in the Air...As he Condescendingly talked about how everything is by the 'Courtesy' of the 'Master'..and explained how it used to be called the 'Grace' of the Master...(Obviously training us as to the New Premie Doublespeak of The Day)..

Something in me was just boiling..it was all so contrived..so unloving..so disrespectful of those in the room. Yet I saw my own chronic attitude of forced reverence and fear afflicting those sitting in the room. This feeling has alway been running like a underground river beneath the Bliss and Adoration of my personal Premiedom and apparently theirs also.
It was then that Maharaji somehow transformed right before my eyes...to the Liar..I now know him to be. The Video cut to a response Maha/Rawat was giving to a woman who apparently had the audacity to bring up the subject that he once claimed to be the 'Lord of the Universe' (the actual question was edited out..Im sure to spare us the full intensity of his deceit). His reply was given in a patronizing manner with MahaRawat with a straight face and almost completely covering over his distain, responded that (and i forgot the exact wording) WE had gone overboard and we should have just told everybody that Maharaji was a guy 'we loved to Death'..EXCUSE ME MAHARAJI?...Wasnt it YOU that had us sing to you every night 'Our Lords the SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON??..Wasnt it You ..who on every inside flap of YOUR Proganda Rag 'And it is Divine' signed your name to a statement that there is 'Never a time when THE LORD OF ALL CREATION doesnt Manifest in a Human Body'.....

Well I didnt know it at the time but my former 'Lord and Savior' had just delivered the 'Coup de Gras' in severing my devotion to the Sick Belief System I had been merged with for the last 28 years. I sat through the rest of the Video..my heart pounding and my head racing. I then quickly exited the event went home and quickly distracted myself by either turning my TV or Computer on and focusing on other things until the feeling of Betrayal had passed.
Days passed. I didnt sit down to meditate (unusual for me). I could feel myself palpably upset with MahaRawat for his Deceits..yet not having anything to deprogram me from the overriding belief that he WAS the Lord and I wasnt...therefore even though he lied to me and disrespected me by his lies...somehow HE was right and I was Wrong. Even So..I was Angry at him for putting me in the position of having to try to devote myself to someone who would lie to me like that...Weeks passed...I didnt think much about this..but neither did I meditate ..or watch any of the Maha/Rawat Videos on my Shelf...Then..one night...almost unconciously...I was on my Computer..and typed in the Word Maharaji in a Search Engine. Rawat had conveniently made numerous website that spouted his propaganda and got them up front on the Search engines.(Im now SURE that this is a conscious Strategy on his/Ev's Part to keep people like me from FINDING what I found.)

What I Found is EX-PREMIE.ORG...God Bless You, Forever!!!...For the Next Days even weeks..I found myself Devouring the Pages and Posts of Mischler, Dettmers, Donners et Al...And as I Digested the Material, I FINALLY had the pieces of the Puzzle that had been missing, LO these MANY YEARS...I had the information to Deprogram myself ..from a belief ..that absent this website..I might have carried with me to My Grave...so THANK YOU AGAIN....those of you who have put up and supported this information....I am Grateful to You...your Courage and your HONESTY...in truthfully portraying and exposing the one who apparently so sadly is lacking in those qualities...
So BDTD, just thought you might be interested in hearing how that video effected another fellow formerly deluded traveler..Thanks for Listening...RichMandrake

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Date: Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 16:00:07 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Good going Rich
Message:
This is going to be agreat post for any new person coming to the forum. You can walk people through the honest emotions and reactions to Maha's cruel and self-serving revisionism. You are brave to admit it.

I find it appalling that some of the premie bongos here can't address Maha's insincerity and deceit. Unfortunately they may never experience that bravery themselves. Too bad!

There's a revelation of truth that makes us stronger, even though we have to submit to the debilitation of its initial acceptance. I hope others speak out about their reaction. I really think that a lot of the premies repressed the realization of what Maha was actually doing.

You said the video was a one-time thing. Is it possible to get a copy of that video?

Shame on Nouri for participating. What the hell is the matter with him, anyways? He's a professional actor. Wouldn't Enquiring minds like to read about that story in the rags.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 15:59:03 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Thanks Rich , I'm envious
Message:
.. that's the sort of post I would have liked to have written a year ago when I , like you , discovered the truth (courtesy of EPO) about the Pied Piper of our time.

Being a novice typer then (not a great deal better now)I used to swear & blaspheme a lot to make up for the blockage in the flow of thought, if you see what I mean.

It gets better believe me , now the guy is entierley out of my head, as he will be soon out of yours , & the only reason to keep posting is to do with issues of truth & justice, both of which never had anything to do with HEEM in the 1st place.

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 17:18:49 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: Bin Liner
Subject: hey Bin email me [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 14:39:23 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Thank you, Rich for a powerful
Message:
post. Many of us have said that the Atlanta training thingy was the final straw. It became so obvious in Rawat's body language and oiliness that he was spinning and lying through his teeth.

Even more than EPO I wish to thank Rawat for finally cutting the tie. His lies in person and on his websites all revolted me to the point where I was receptive to hearing what EPO had to say.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 13:20:06 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Thanks Rich, a MUST READ!! [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:20:06 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Wow, Must READ **BEST**
Message:
Thanks for that Rich. Even all these years later (I left in 1983), I can completely relate to the feeling of self-doubt and self-blame that is the cornerstone of the Maharaji world. Thanks so much for sharing that, and I hope everyone reads what you had to say. Quite a transformation, and thanks for trusting your own feelings and thoughts enough to get free.

I know this might sound trite, but it's reading a post like yours that makes me think that the exes who work to keep this site going really are doing a service, and in my case, it kind of makes up for some of the years I feel I wasted following Maharaji.

Thanks again.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 12:10:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Great, great post, Rich!
Message:
Rich,

All the caps make it read like John Barth's 'Sot Weed Factor' -- excellent book, excellent post.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:32:45 (EDT)
From: sorry
Email: None
To: bdtd
Subject: psyco computer
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 19:09:51 (EDT)
From: Cedron
Email: None
To: All
Subject: They're here (OT?)
Message:
Check out The face and also 1974 (S.E.T.I) Arecibo radio transmission which is an exact replica of the radio message sent by us in 1974 to outer space.

All these circles have been verified as being authentic and not man made. Man made crop circles remove the seed heads of the crops when they are formed. All the seed heads of these crops were intact. Some of the formations appeared within ten seconds.
[ August crop circles in England ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:29:14 (EDT)
From: An Alian
Email: None
To: Cedron
Subject: Re: They're here (OT?)
Message:
Can't belive u poms belive this stuff. The message we sent is marked on a corn field. Now why the hell does any body from outer space wants to do such a thing, ha? Why can't they just send us a wirless or something. Go away.

And hey, the plot thickens, the face of the fellow from Mars. How ever is doing this is getting real good.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:11:24 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Cedron
Subject: Don't make me laugh
Message:
All these circles have been verified as being authentic and not man made.

Who verified them? I mean, seriously, who could possibly be an expert on where crop circles come from other than those who expose the frauds? If you ask me, it's just a matter of time till these prove to be some prankster's joke as well. I wouldn't be surprised if they already have been and we just haven't heard about it yet.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:49:59 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Cedron
Subject: Yeah life in rural England can be boring
Message:
..which is not to say that the inhabitants are stupid.

The radio transmission pic seems to have some sort of hefty communication disk & a hangar, on what looks like the end of an old military airstrip just across the road from it.

Wouldn't you say the guys who work there socialise with the agriculturals down at the local boozer?

These days it probably isn't called the 'Wheatsheaf' anymore : it'll've been renamed the 'Fuck the Moron'.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:09:43 (EDT)
From: Nigeandmoley
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: laughing our tits off...
Message:
Brilliantly put, dear Bin man. Bless you.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:40:33 (EDT)
From: ggg
Email: None
To: Cedron
Subject: Re: They're here (OT?)
Message:
Thanks for that I'll probably try go see one near me at the weekend! There is always a vibe around them as well. I think!!
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:54:29 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: More from Charles Glasser Jr.
Message:
Down below, I've quoted some stuff from Glasser's website in which he says that some ex-premies are just upset because Maharaji got rid of the Hindu trappings of the cult. According to Charles, that's one group of us. It's ridiculous, but that's what he says.

Another group of ex-premies is just insane, according to Charles who is apparently not only a lawyer, but also a psychiatrist. Nice one, Charles, this from a man who will fly around the world to kiss somebody's feet. Look who's talking.

Another group he calls the 'Hate Club.' I don't know who he puts in this group, but it could be anybody who says anything negative about Maharaji, which is apparently a mortal sin on the planet where Charles lives. Anyway, this is what he says:

That's the Hate Club. There are really only 4 or 5 of them, but they have a loud and bullying way of dominating the agenda. They have publicly vowed to let no positive expression about Knowledge go unsmeared. No matter what is said, these hardy few will scream and scream and scream until reasonable people give up and go away. Which is just what the Hate Club wants.

Interesting, no? Not one word on the SUBSTANCE of anything the 'hate club' says. I wonder, did Maharaji have a meeting with premies somewhere, in which they decided that the way to deal with ex-premies is to just label them a hate group and completely avoid even addressing anything they say? I wouldn't be surprised, as Maharaji hasn't addressed any criticism in his entire life, from what I can tell. It sure seems like something like that has happened, because this is ALL we get from premies. They seem incapable of dealing substantively with any criticsms having to do with Maharaji, and they just write them off as the evil musings of derranged people having no legitimate criticisms.

Then he says, sounding much like Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson in the way they villify gay people. He says we have an AGENDA, and probably believes we all have it posted to our refrigerators and read it EVERY DAY, just like the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO, [Something like: 1. Pick up dry cleaning; 2) Do something HATEFUL towards Maharaji, and anything assoicated with him; 3) Buy stamps..etc:

They have publicly stated their agenda plain and simple. They will do and say anything to destroy Maharaji and the practice of Knowledge.

See, we are just EVIL, and we have an AGENDA. We are the agents of darkness, because we have rejected the light. We are the Lucifers. We once were part of the light, having seen the true God, but now, we have fallen and are just miserable and evil, and just want to destroy so that everyone will be as miserable as we are, because, well, misery loves company, I guess. That's our agenda, see. It's all so clear to Glasser in that mind of his. He can tell we are all miserable, and hateful, by the way we post. It's just so obvious to Charles, the priest, as he rages against the darkness. He must feel just so righteous, there, defending the love and light from the powers of the dark side.

Since Glasser thinks Maharaji is incarnation God, by definition anybody who criticizes him is in cahoots with the devil, the prince of darkness. Really Charles, you are a drama queen, aren't you? Do you think you were part of the Inquisition in your past life, out there defending the one, true religion from heresy? Such a noble person, Charles. A drama queen for sure, but noble, too.

I find this following statement from Charles extremely ironic.

It is utterly astonishing. Their hallmark is a complete and total inability to say anything positive.

Well, if you can't say something nice.... But, seriously, I say the same thing about premies. They are incapable of criticism of Maharaji. They just can't do it. Catholics can criticize the pope, people dish the President all the time, but Maharaji, no way, not from a premie. There isn't even the TEENSIEST criticism from a premie, at least not in public, and really, Charles, this is one of the hallmark characteristics of a cult, because you believe that Maharaji is ABOVE criticism. Completely and totally above having to follow the rules that everyone else is supposed to follow. Note also, that, like Charles, when it comes to Maharaji, premies lose any shred of a sense of humor. They become COMPELTELY humorless. That's another true sign.

And BTW, there are plenty of ex-premies who have some positive things to say about Maharaji and their involvement with him, including me. Read the Journies, Charles. Do your homework.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 19:37:01 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: something positive for
Message:
Charles Glasser Jr.
When I was a premie I was **SO** happy to see him lose the Hind act.
I could just applaud instead of yelling Bhole Shris, I didn't have to see him in 'THAT' outfit. It was great. and....
I see now that it is quite helpful to M to have given that up. Imagine showing THAT to your friends. Positive move indeed.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:20:56 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My Agenda
Message:
My agenda, as a member of the Hate Club (well, actually, I'm a member of the extreme dislike club) is to ensure that ex-premies around the world get the best parking spots throughout the planet, and these parking spots will be free. They will be for ex-premies only, not for fence-sitting premies, or those who left M and then returned to the Lotus Feet, or for people who were never premies. These parking places will be for ex-premies only. I want to convert all handicapped (or differenly abled) parking to ex-premie parking. I will stop at nothing to acheive my goals; I will destroy M and his Love Club in order to attain perfect parking for all who once parked themselves at the lotus feet (I guess this also puts me in the 'crazy ex-premie' category, too).
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:42:41 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, I sometimes think we need a FAQ page...
Message:
... for this forum. To all the assertions premies make about us again and again. But instead of FAQ, mabye it should be FLA, for ''Frequently Leveled Accusations'', since they seldom ask questions, because they don't really want to hear our answers. I've given up talking with anonymous premies, as they avoid questions or discussion and just harrass. It's boring. I'd like to be able to just give a FAQ link as a reply. One gets tired of patiently and reasonably answering the same old accusations again and again, only to have the answers ignored.

I liked what you said, about the premies not wanting to address the SUBSTANCE of anything the so-called 'hate-club' says. Much like M. himself. I remember hearing M. speak several years ago. He mentioned that he has enemies and critics, but that he believed it was all a misunderstanding. I wondered what he was talking about. Over time he would make a few references like that, but never follow up on them. I eventually learned about the EPO website.

I made all the usual excuses and justifications for him in the begining. But eventually, I had to wonder, if these things really were all just misunderstandings, then why was he not doing anything to clear them up? I waited for YEARS for M to explain things, and he never did. What DID he talk about? He just whinned about how hard it is to be a millionaire, and talked about his toys and gadgets and how they went to buy his daughter a horse but she couldn't decide which one, so they bought three. About how he needed more money for propagation and more premies to do service, without arguing or questioning what needed to be done. Oh yeah, and Satsang too, like ''Never doubt the purity of the Master'', ''Don't go throught the darshan line unless your ready to show some RESPECT'', and ''I don't know your name, and I don't WANT to know''. And ridiculing questions collected from aspirants and joking about how stupid questions were, while the PAMS in the audience snickered knowingly. How people should just SHUT UP and LISTEN. LISTEN TO THE MASTER.

Over two years of on-and-off reading of the EPO website, slowly assimilating the information there, I continued listening to his discourses and waited for him to explain these so-called misunderstandings. But he never did. Why?

For the same reasons the premies don't want to discuss them with us. Because for the most part, they CAN'T be explained away. There are no misunderstandings. What happened in the past, and what is happening now, would not hold up well under scrutiny. That is why there is so much secrecty around so many things regarding M.

The exes may not have all the facts (not for lack of trying!), and there are plenty of secrets yet to be revealed, but enough of what we are exposing is true enough that it cannot be explained away. Their response is to ignore it, or intimidation and blackmail via a website like CAC.

Maharaji can clear all this up any time he wants to. Misunderstanding's, Maharaji? We'd love to hear what you have to say. I waited for years. Really I did. All in vain.

Oh, and lest I be accused of never saying ANYTHING positive about Maharaji, lets see... He often said nice little truisms like ''be grateful'' and ''count your blessings'' and ''enjoy your life'', which I always found appealing. Sometimes, he would tell good jokes. I used to be grateful for the meditation, till I found out it was half-assed yoga the way he was teaching it, and I could have had it without all the conceptual baggage M. dishes it up with. No wonder THAT was a secret!

But, all things considered, I can get the trueisms, the jokes and the meditation from other sources, which don't even ask me to send checks. So, lest I sound like an ungrateful hateclub member, I can honestly say I REALLY DO have a lot to be grateful for. M turned out to be a teacher after all; I learned about what happens when you follow a teacher who never lets you graduate, doesn't answer questions, keeps secrets and claims he's not really a teacher, but ''You-Know-Who''. :)

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:02:20 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: CG IS VIOLET ELIZABETH!
Message:
That's the Hate Club. There are really only 4 or 5 of them, but they have a loud and bullying way of dominating the agenda. They have publicly vowed to let no positive expression about Knowledge go unsmeared. No matter what is said, these hardy few will scream and scream and scream until reasonable people give up and go away. Which is just what the Hate Club wants.

'I'll thkweam and thkweam and thkweam till I'm thick...'

(ref: Just William by Richmal Crompton)

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:06:57 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Excuse me, few question
Message:
Charles Glasser says:

There are really only 4 or 5 of them, but they have a loud and bullying way of dominating the agenda.

Dominating what agenda? The agenda about the BigHead being a FRaud? The agenda that we are dominating the agenda that the litttle scum is God almighty in a bod.

And if there is only 4 or 5 of them, how come 12 apostates with different pictures and addresses and phone numbers with threats of more to come are on the page?

Just thinking!

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:51:33 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: More from Charles Glasser Jr.
Message:
Hey joe, you mentioned:
he (Charles Glasser) says we have an AGENDA, and probably believes we all have it posted to our refrigerators and read it EVERY DAY, just like the COMMUNIST MANIFESTO, [Something like:
1. Pick up dry cleaning;
2) Do something HATEFUL towards Maharaji, and anything assoicated with him;
3) Buy stamps..etc:

Can I get one of those refrigerator magnets? ;)

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:49:30 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: exes have no humour ? What a joke ! nt
Message:
Thanks for that Debs. ROFL
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:52:59 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I feel nauseated !
Message:
My God i feel so terrible. Agh ! Retch !

I've just this minute come back from watching a video of Maharaji at Amaroo this year. Fucking hell !

I decided to go with an open mind (and heart). God I feel violated ! Must stop all these exclamation marks !!!!! That's it. I can never see or listen to that guy again.

An indescribable experience for sure. First thing I thought as he started was how appalling he is to look at, so porcine , with little squinty eyes and a phlegmatic nasally voice. The voice is the same as ever ....

So I listen (stomach churning) as he goes on and on and on and on ... few old Indian stories... a corny joke about the three bears .. then the story of three little piggies .. house out of straw.. yuk .... master ... he's the only one who gives it..his voice grates on me., I shudder quietly .What the fuck's he talking about ?

At some point he's implying that he's a wild , beautiful , untamed stallion and we are all coralled and broken spirited horses. he's come to set us free to join him . No one has ever tamed him or been on his back . He makes some derisory comments about how people in this world don't know that experience . Only premies ..He's the only one who's giving it...

Don't doubt . Don't judge a master by any standards other than the gift he has given. He doesn't live by our codes and masters never have.

As I listened I felt oppressive energy - exactly the opposite of what he was saying . I felt good , free when I arrived at the house then as I listened it felt like a virus was infiltrating me. He was trying to ride my back and capture my spirit. It crossed my mind that he may be evil, possessed.

His whole presentation was so naff , predictable. He stumbled and bumbled , muddled and winging it. Oh jeez it was so bad.... I can't believe that i was one of those people that the camera kept scanning in the audience. Blank , adoring....brain gone into inactive . They all looked so old too Wow ! A pathetic middle agers cult.

That was the first newish video I'd seen for 2 years.

So the end of the video arrives (at last). My friend asks me the question I'd been dreading ...... ' I really liked that , did you enjoy it ? ' No, I couldn't relate to it at all ' I replied. He looked astonished and then proceeded to allow the video machine to move on to another video ! Nottingham it was... even fucking worse. I sat stunned in horror. What a load of garbage. I really can't describe this experience......

I lasted ten mins and had to excuse myself and run out. I just arrived back home and am typing this fresh and inarticulately .. raw journalism.

I'm so sure now. Free from any doubts... It sucks big time and I'm glad to be out.

Steve the blessed and relieved.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 19:25:23 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: guess that wasn't an introductory video
Message:
What with all the
I'm the only one who can give its and
I've come to set you free and this one:
Don't doubt . Don't judge a master by any standards other than the gift he has given. He doesn't live by our codes and masters never have.
I'm surprised really that he said those things, what happened to the repackaging?
Well don't feel bad I felt that way for 2 years before I finally gave it up.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:05:58 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Good for you!
Message:
Hey Steve,

When I saw the title of your post I thought you were returning from LG! That's how I felt the couple of times I stopped in there to read.

It's just so, so, icky, isn't it?

I'm happy you are happy. I find that if I stay away from the yuckiness, I feel much better, too.

Be well, you sound so good,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:16:01 (EDT)
From: Moley
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Steve
Subject: Welcome Back to Reality Steve xxx nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:31:45 (EDT)
From: ggg
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Re: I felt really sick on . . .
Message:
Hi Steve

I can understand exactly how you feel. On Friday my friend, who is exiting at the moment asked me to read the Elan Vital newsletter that she is still receiving because she couldn't believe or even understand the stupid content of it. So I did. I knew I didn't want to, but if it helped her understand something . . .
So the whole thing is just so banal, and I mean inane. He's talking about
'Knowledge is everything and this life is nothing.' It makes me SO mad when he disses life itself.
'Knowledge gives you trillions and billions.' And that's where the sentence ends. Trillions and billions of what? You stupid man. The examples are the stupidest when he talks about wisdom. he talks about trees growing as if you were five years old and just discovered that trees grow. He really is an insult to the intelligence of any normal human being.

So Ok we read it trying to glean some understanding of it or some trinket of wisdom or something but it doesn't make sense and most of it isn't even grammatically correct. Not relevant to anything or in the slightest bit interesting. Just boring negative anhilation shit.

I must say I forgot about it, until the next day I felt really bad. Just so off key, off centre, offline, call it what you will but not my normal self. Like I did just before I exited. Blasted away, needy, disempowered, depressed, feeble even I would say. I hated feeling that way all of Saturday. So I won't do that again. But worse is how deep does this programming go, if that evoked such a strong reaction in me, it begs the question what has this stupid guru done to me and countless thousands of other innocent and sincere people. It certainly triggered something I would have not expected.

ggg

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:03:39 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: ggg
Subject: Thanks to Steve and ggg for being candid
Message:
And you both articulated your feelings well.

This is good for anyone still watching the videos to listen to what he says and stop drooling over the fact that it is so miraculous that 'he is here'.

Not to mention how smuggly lucky and priviledged they are to 'get to gaze and marvel at his sight on the video' while the unfortunate others don't even KNOW he exists. Yea yea, we KNOW he's here, but now we KNOW what he's about as well. Big difference.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:06:36 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Re: Thanks to Steve and ggg for being candid
Message:
Yes, thanks. It's a tough job but someone's gotta do it.

Not me, though. I have never, never wanted to see or hear M since i left. I have instinctively felt that it is bad for me. They say that one receives 75,000 hours of parental programming, in a normal upbringing, and this is why some who are quite grown-up and accomplished and mature revert to the most amazing whiny helplessness when they go home for the holidays. It's as though there are multiple psychic cords or strings through which they can unconsciously operate you like a puppet and make you feel like a kid. I don't always experience this with my parents, but if my energy is a bit low it can be almost like the twilight zone being with them on a bad day.

I wonder how many hours of Maharaji-programming I received? I don't feel drawn to go and see him, but I must admit I am curious to see how he looks these days, since if I conjure a mental image he is about 15 years old and kinda cutish.

I've had descriptions, but does anyone have a recent photo?

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:47:23 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: Thanks to Steve and ggg for being candid
Message:
I'll email you a recent pic, Disculta. But what about we have another Pigeon Fanciers' night and I'll show you the tape of the Atlanta Propagation Training seminar - the one where he tells people that the only way to propagate is to shut up and show videos of him.

It's the only bit of maharajiana I still have and it is an eye-opener. After seeing that 8 months ago I have never watched another video. It was obvious that he was just another slimy little conman and should be on late night TV selling get rich quick schemes. Wait until you see how cold and calculating he looks nowadays - fake smile and airbrushed zits notwithstanding.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 18:13:01 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Pat/Disculta, Hold Hands While You Watch...
Message:
I still have a few videos and I am afraid to watch them. Not because I would go back or anything, just because he's really creepy.

Yucky and creepy!

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:43:32 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Spin and Lies of Charles Glasser Jr.
Message:
Charles Glasser has modified his website somewhat, I think partly because he is freaked that some might think he was behind the CAC website, or that his own hate site encouraged the CAC folks. Anyhow, he has some amazing statements about people who don't like Maharaji anymore like the following, which are there to rationalize away the legitimate objections people have about Maharaji:

A good handful if critics [of Maharaji] are people who quite innocently fell into the trap of coming to Knowledge with preconceived ideas about spirituality....And to be fair, back in the Seventies a lot of people encouraged a quasi-Indian religion to develop around Maharaji..but he dismantled most of that leaving people with no external substitute for the experience of Knowledge.

I think perhaps Mr. Glasser was still in diapers in the 70s because he sure doesn't know what he's talking about, that's for sure.

Isn't it interesting that all the 'spiritual concepts' about Maharaji and knowledge just sort of 'happened,' or they were caused by 'others?' No one, NO ONE, encouraged the spiritual concepts of himself as God and all the rest more than Maharaji himself. If Glasser had been around then, he would have seen that for himself. Perhaps he should view the video, 'The Lord of the Universe' and get some education about this.

And as for M supposedly having 'dismantled most of that,' I wonder if Mr. Glasser is referring to ARTI, which is about as spiritual and religious and Hindu as you can imagine, and also DARSHAN, which is the Hindu feet-kissing ritual, and the related 'external substitute for the experience of Knowledge,' when he says that. Obviously not, as I am informed that Mr. Glasser was just a few months ago in Amaroo, where Maharaji and his devotees engaged in both. So much for the ending of the religious spritual concepts that Maharaji has so valiantly engaged in.

Then Glasser says:

Well some of these folks felt abandoned...They still had Knowledge, but wanted all the trappings and window dressing instead.

Here Glasser gloms onto the Elan Vital crap that people who left Maharaji are just pissed that he dropped all the Hindu mumbo jumbo. Well, first of all he didn't (note, above), but also, isn't it interesting that I have yet to hear of an ex-premie who, so in love with spritual religiousity, went on to join the Hare Krishnas or some other, more traditional guru trip. How many did that? Not one that I know of. In fact, if they were anything like me, they were sick and tired of worshipping Maharaji through Hindu rituals and would have supported any reforms in that regard. No, I left Maharaji because knowledge didn't work for me, Maharaji didn't give a crap about anything but making himself rich off our slave labor, and he was a liar, somebody you wouldn't want to devote your life to, nor to have as your 'master.' It had nothing to do with any so-called reforms, all of which were compeletly superficial and entirely for the purpose of trying to get new converts.

Then Glasser says:

It seems that these folks can only practice Knowledge if taught by a poor Indian in white robes [saffron, Charles, get it right], and a heavy accent, rather than a very witty guy with remarkable talents and exquisite taste. Why should I care if he drives a nice car?

Well, I guess evaluation of 'talents' is very subjective, and and as they say there is no accounting for taste,(just check out a few of the pictures on EPO of Maharaji if you want to see what the epitome of bad taste in the person of Maharaji is all about), Glasser doesn't seem to realize that the western initiators were in full swing years before I left and I don't recall any saffron robes for the few years at the end of my involvement. But no, Maharaji's speaking style hasn't really changed. He is just as incoherent and boring as he ever was, except to those who believe whatever he says is golden because he's god. You know, Charles, the same people who line up to kiss his feet. The accent doesn't much matter if you are that far gone.

The other thing that Glasser doesn't seem to notice, is that a large percentage of the people who participate in EPO, are ex-premies who left the cult in the past few years, after all the supposed 'modernization' took place. But since it seems that the Hindu mumbo jumbo is coming back in full swing, you'd think many of us who are just in love with the rituals would be back by now, back swinging ARTI trays and pranaming, back kissing our appropriately spritual master's feet, just like in the days of all those confusing spritual concepts back in the me-decade.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 11:26:57 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Response from Charles
Message:
I emailed the above to Charles Glasser Jr., on his website (mjtruth2001@yahoo.cm), where he openly asks for comments, but apparently wants no disagreements, just positive comments, I guess. No, Charles isn't interested in contrary comments. Charles is one VERY angry guy. I mean, he is really angry. No telling what he might do. He's a little scary in my opinion. He might do lots of things in that kind of state. Not sure what, but who knows? BTW, is that the way they talk in New York, with the swear words? Brooklyn maybe? Not sure, but I think most New Yorkers are a little more respectful.

Here's his response to me:

So you turn out to be a hateful asshole after all.
Disappointing but not surprising. I guess some of the
other exes were right about you.

You are 'informed that I was in Amaroo'? You checking
up on me?

Have a nice life. Jerk. Please stop sending me your
crap.

cjg

Here's my response to him:

Sorry, Charles but if you put up websites attacking people, you might expect they will respond. Too bad you are fulfilling my expectations and are unwilling to discuss the actual substance of anything. Plus, name calling is really beneath you. Are you always this angry? Do you always hate this much? Or is it only others who are hateful?

I'm not checking up on you Charles, but the premie world is rather porous. Are you saying you weren't there? Are you saying you didn't sing Arti and go through darshan? Do you like the Hindu rituals, Charles?

But I will abide by your wishes and not correspond anymore, even though your website openly requests it. Gonna take down the email on your website?

Have a nice day Charles, and I'm really sorry we upset you so much.

Joe

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 13:10:14 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Geezum H. Crow!
Message:
Hi Joe,

Of all the people here, I consider you to be one the most reasonable, sensible, civil, and kind. You don't deserve shit like what Glasser just dished out to you.

His comment: ''I guess some of the other exes were right about you.'' has me puzzled. What exes have called you anything like what he wrote?

It's very tiresome, isn't it, to be called hateful, especially when one is trying to understand the motives behind the backlash websites. He seems quite scary to me, too, asking you if you are checking up on him.

Joe, don't let it get you down. I don't know of anyone here who thinks you are a jerk. I certainly don't.

I'd keep that response :) though...
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 15:30:47 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Glasser Whistles in the Dark
Message:
I would say something about blowing smoke up certain parts of his anatomy, but I don't want to give anyone the ability to take that out of context. So, let's just say Glasser is whistling in the dark when he makes comments like that. Like everything else he says, he provides no substantiation whatsoever, and just makes blanket attacks. Such is modus operandi of some people, I'm afraid.

Glasser received knowledge in 1980. Doubt he knew about DECA, Millennium, etc. But if he went to festivals 1980-1985, he knew about the Lord and darshan and Arti, and apparently he is doing it again in Amaroo, just a few months ago. The word 'hypocrite' comes to mind.

Thanks, Cynthia. I always enjoy reading what you have to say.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:47:50 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: The Spin and Lies of Charles Glasser Jr.
Message:
Very well-argued and written, Joe.

Glasser is a whole problem unto himself. But I damn well wish he wasn't our problem, too. (So does he, probably...?)

Can't this effing l**ser get a life for once? Move on a little? I never asked him for donations. Did he renovate your plane..? No, mine neither. (Whatever happened to appropriately-focused righteous anger?)

Yeah, so why the fuck can't Glasser leave alone what has fuck all to do with him? ie. this forum: people expressing their own experiences of lives with M and Special K?

If Maharaji's critics have made factual errors let him correct them.

But Glasser cannot or will not do that. Your starter for ten: Why not?

(sorry, no prizes for 'coz he's in a cult' - we knew that already)

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 16:35:13 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Glasser wants to simplify our motives so......
Message:
... he and other's can easily dismiss them. His ''Excuse Maker'' is working overtime. But I see great irony in some of his statements.

I left the cult only 8 months ago. I was one of those 1980's premies who didn't like the Indian trappings. I was relieved and pleased when many of them seemed to be de-emphasized or discarded in the 1980's.

However, many of the Hindu concepts came back with a vengence in the 1990's. M even began quoting Hindu scripture to back up his roll as the Master, comparing himself to Krishna and other Masters. He has been very forceful and uncompromising in explaining who he is, and what our roll is as a ''student'' of ''The Master'' (Stop asking questions and SHUT UP and LISTEN!!! Think of ME when you die. No one has ever saved himself. You can't go home without The Master.) Foot kissing is available for those who can afford the expensive programs in remote areas.

I've been watching the same videos and attending the same programs as Charles Glasser, for the past 20 years. Who does he think he's kidding?

He and many other premies like to think that all the exes here left long ago. That's hardly the case, new people are posting all the time. Many leave the cult without posting here at all. Many have been helped just by reading the EPO website. That's why websites like CAC appear; to intimidate us into silence.

NONE of the premie websites (like Glassers) link to the ex-premie sites, but many of the ex-premie sites link extensively to premies sites. Why? Because we aren't afraid of what they have to say. We know it dosen't hold up to scrutiny. Can they say the same? If what we are saying won't hold up to scrutiny, then why are they using intimidation and blackmail, via email and anonymous websites, to silence the guru's critics?

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 16:03:40 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Of course the concept of ''The Master''
Message:
is not Hindu or feudalistic or primitive. It is completely western, democratic and as modern as tomorrow. Sorry, I couldn't help being sarcastic.

Charles really is farting against a gale.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:58:02 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: The Spin and Lies of Charles Glasser Jr.
Message:
Hi joe. Let me quote this line again.

Charles Glasser has modified his website somewhat, I think partly because he is freaked that some might think he was behind the CAC website, or that his own hate site encouraged the CAC folks.

Bingo! But the question is, WHO do you think he is worried about seeing it?

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:57:52 (EDT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Fabulous, Logical , Useful Post Joe!
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:11:36 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Oh, I dunno.....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 13:04:52 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: People Magazine 1975 article on EPO
Message:
People Weekly Magazine Article 1975

The teenaged guru fights his brother for control of the wealthy divine light mission....

Including some pictures most of you have never seen. Even premies will love them !!

Don't know about Indian premies. Pat ? Your opinion ?
[ People Mag 1975 article ]

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:46:45 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: People Magazine 1975 article on EPO
Message:
I don't know why but the 'smooching' picture makes me feel very sorry for Marolyn.
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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 00:24:04 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: btdt
Subject: Re: People Magazine 1975 article on EPO
Message:
I don't know why but the 'smooching' picture makes me feel very sorry for Marolyn.


---

It's photographic evidence of part of her abduction.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:42:21 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: bubblegum@ji.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: :: not a Lord of the Universe for 26 years :: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:10:54 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Great work (small typos)
Message:
Twice you've written 'bean' instead of 'been'. 'Bean' is like un haricot en francaise.

Wow, where were we when this stuff came out, huh?

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:04:18 (EDT)
From: Who's the astrologer?
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: People Magazine 1975 article on EPO
Message:
JM-

Great work, as usual.

One thing that stood out, was the prediction of the astrologer, concerning m's future.

1-He would finish his work by the time he was 16.
2-He would probably get married 3 times.

I think that m did peak around 16 or so.
As far as the marriages go, it seems that he is well on his way in the 2nd one...maybe when monica gets a few years older, he'll be ready for #3...

Now if you could find that astrologer, that would be some real sleuth work, JM...

Thanks again...

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:57:08 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: People Magazine 1975 article on EPO
Message:
Just great stuff, J-M. Thank you so much.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:41:54 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What a throw back [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 13:54:14 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: a classic [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 13:52:09 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Amazing
Message:
I can't believe I had never seen that. Of course, at the time it came out, I was busy slaving away in the ashram in San Antonio, far from the ordinary world of magazines and newspapers.

I never saw that picture of Marolyn and Maharaji kissing before. Must have been a sensation on the cover of an Indian magazine. Tacky of Maharaji, though, to have a fake photo of Bal Bhagwan Ji made up to discredit him in retaliation.

Boy, Bal Bhagwanji sure has put on weight. Maybe he was jealous that Maharaji was so fat and he wasn't.

Thanks, J-M, just a little more in the historical record!

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:39:31 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Re: Amazing
Message:
More amazing is that we are getting the proof that Maha is really a creep who stoops to Fraud everytime to save his little empire.

The man truly makes me sick.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:51:27 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Deborah
Subject: :: issues ::
Message:
More amazing is that we are getting the proof that Maha is really a creep who stoops to Fraud everytime to save his little empire.

---

On the contrary, I think there was still a lot of Sant Ji left in him, at the time some of those photos were taken. It makes a lot more sense to me, since the Maharaji I fell for was the eighteen year old boy from India, not this character we see before us today. How responsible was I at eighteen? Would I have noticed how much my actions affect others? He was an adolescent then, and seemed to be having some fun, and he was also awfully industrious for a boy his age -- intensely so.

No, these pictures remind me of the boy who came before the man. If he could have stayed that boy, I would probably still be premie-brainwashed (though clearly 'spacing out' the Knowlege. ;)

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Date: Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 16:04:22 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: :: issues ::
Message:
I hear you:p
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 16:48:36 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: I've seen the smooching pix before...
Message:
Thank you, J-M!

Great work.

While I was in Miami in 1979-1980, someone showed me that picture of M&M kissing. It was a print, not a copy of the magazine. Don't remember who showed it to me.

It was floating around though...

Thanks again,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 07:52:44 (EDT)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: I've seen the smooching pix before...
Message:
I remember seeing a similar picture in the Sunday Times (UK) sometime in the late 70's. The story was that the woman in receipt of M's grace was not Marolyn (the view was of the back of her head) but someone who worked in the kitchens. Of course, at the time I simply dismissed such a ridiculous notion as a crude attempt to besmirch the Perfect Master.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 14:47:20 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Re: I've seen the smooching pix before...
Message:
Hi Nick. Up until 9 months ago I had that pic framed on my wall. Then I took it along with five shoe boxes of guru crap and gave them to another premie. It was a still from Rawat's wedding video where he kisses the bride. Of course it was illegal in India to show kissing in movies or magazines until the early 90s and is still reagrded as obscene to kiss in public.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 08:30:59 (EDT)
From: Vera
Email: None
To: All
Subject: amaroo fundraiser moved to Arizona
Message:
September's major donors' meeting has been moved to Arizona.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:56:52 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Vera
Subject: My guess
Message:
M and EV realizes that vast amounts of funds could be saved on using a closer and cheaper venue.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:03:26 (EDT)
From: Tonette get to work
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: or I'm coming across the...
Message:
river right now and talk to your stupervisor
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:57:41 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Tonette get to work
Subject: Hey, I am the supervisor
Message:
Hi John, you're up early!
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:45:21 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Vera
Subject: What does that mean
Message:
Sorry, I don't know what Amaroo is all about? Is that the name of a city in Australia? Don't know, was away from the cult since late 80's. And are you saying that only major donor's go that festiva?.

Is donating a liver to the alcoholic Perfect Sheister considered being a major donor }) ?

Seriously, I don't know about some of the 90's and later events. I didn'[t know till I came here, the BigHead had a gag order on Satsang.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:45:24 (EDT)
From: Amaroo is to Maharaji
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: as Jonestown was to Jim Jones [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 08:39:47 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Amaroo is to Maharaji
Subject: Amaroo and Jonestown
Message:
I've always thought that since I became an ex. It's not in the US. It's isolated. Maharaji pulls out all the stops there by giving darshan and ''letting'' the premies show devotion to him as Lord.

It's frightening, isn't it? I've heard many old timers say they wish they could leave this world and live in Australia at Amaroo. All together with Maharaji.

Chills go up my spine.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:02:59 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: :: sacred *cash* cow ::
Message:
I've always thought that since I became an ex. It's not in the US. It's isolated. Maharaji pulls out all the stops there by giving darshan and ''letting'' the premies show devotion to him as Lord.

It's frightening, isn't it? I've heard many old timers say they wish they could leave this world and live in Australia at Amaroo. All together with Maharaji.

Chills go up my spine.

---

Well, sheer speculation on my part, but yes .. it seemed to me, after the details we can piece together about M's psychological life, that he's ripe for making bigger mistakes than he's made in his youth. Once he gets suicidal (which, quite frankly, I'm sure he has) it's anyone's guess what he may direct others to do, in a fit of grief and self-pity.

On the other hand, it may never happen or even get close to happening. I can see him riding out the charade until retirement, when some acolyte or other takes over the business. Now that he's shed 'the perfect master never dies' it may indeed be possible -- plus, he can Lila the fuck out of people's heads, any time he wants to. He can retain the title, and still get others to do the work (schlep?) for him.

He's got a good cash cow -- not as good as at one time, but every wealthy person peaks *sometime* in their life; most do not Jonestown out -- they deal with it, however ineptly.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 13:50:43 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: :: sacred *cash* cow ::
Message:
I don't necessarily think he'd pull a Jim Jones on the premies, but they way things have been going he must be having a bloody fit! The backlash from the CAC and Glasser and Pia's websites, the fake press releases, the secret meetings...oooooooh I would love to be a fly on the wall.

Think he's been screaming at people? I do. He's a belligerent drunk, and unpredictable. Makes me think that his mind is so fucked up, his life has been sooo fucked up, living as the living Lord, that something could pop inside him and make him loose it big time.

On the other hand, premies have always been so dispensible to him.
The isolation of the Amaroo site is what's so creepy to me. I'm happy I never went there. For premies, it is/was?? the ultimate place to go to be with m.

Remember in the late 70's when he had the weeklong festivals? At the end, he's always say something to the effect that 'wouldn't it be wonderful if we had our own place, and goomraji and the premies could be together anytime we want?' The premies would go ballistic in bliss, eyes glazed over.

It's about the money, though. If enough premies stop sending him money, and his ship goes down, it's certainly possible he'd gather a few hundred down at Amaroo for the final blessing.

It is truly scary to me to admit this. I wonder what his reaction would be if/when he got a lot of national press, i.e., CNN type exposure. What would send him off the deep end?

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 00:36:44 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: :: sacred *cash* cow ::
Message:
It is truly scary to me to admit this. I wonder what his reaction would be if/when he got a lot of national press, i.e., CNN type exposure. What would send him off the deep end?


---

At least he doesn't have an army to command. I have to abstract here, a bit, and note in passing the unseen massacres that are bound to occur in the future, everywhere evil takes a seat. Nationalism is a cult, too; and it often commands an army and garners wholesale visibility -- and still, it goes on.

By legitimizing M's cult, we put minors at risk. I think about that sometimes, and why it is important to speak out now, in restitution to them. If I can help a cult member's kid make sense out of their situation, that's better than just hand-wringing and saying there's nothing I can do about it now.

Never mind I was a minor, myself, when I was indoctrinated. There were children much younger than me who .. had to go to public school and whatnot, with their parents acting like that at home every day.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:13:36 (EDT)
From: The Last Resort
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Amaroo Retirement Community
Message:
'Please sign over all your money to ME, and you'll have no problems'
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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 00:38:43 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: The Last Resort
Subject: :: Windows ME? No thank you! :: [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 09:40:31 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: The Last Resort
Subject: Re: Amaroo Retirement Community
Message:
ROTFLMAO!!!! Tee hee hee hee, good one!
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 21:53:07 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Another good read on groups/cults
Message:
Hi all.

Found a book that wasn't listed on ex-premie.org and thought someone might be interested.

It is called 'Under the Influence' by John D. Goldhammer - Prometheus Books, New York, 1996,ISBN 1-57392-00601.

One quote that I liked and related to a post of mine yesterday - spooky eh!
'For one's own part, one is a mere disciple, but nonetheless a joint guardian of the great treasure which the Master has found. One feels the full dignity and burden of such a position, deeming it a solemn duty and a moral necessity to revile others not of a like mind, to enroll proselytes and to hold up a light to the Gentiles, exactly as though one were the prophet oneself. And these people who creep about behind an apparently modest persona, are the very ones who, when inflated by identification with the collective psyche, suddenly burst upon the world scene. For, just as the prophet is a primordial image from the collective psyche, so also is ther disciple of the prophet' from Carl Jung 'Two essays on Analytical Psychology'

Bought the book off Amazon.com. A pretty good overview by one who was in a cult and out since 1982. Good thinking and presentation. Not all his own ideas - well referenced though as with many of these books often referenced to books that are not so strong themselves - but not bad in the scheme of these types of books - i.e not all their own ideas. If you've already read a few others it may or may not add something for you.

I bought it because I work with groups both organisationally and therapeutically and thought the title referred to that - so it is an accidental find.

It is from a slightly Jungain perspective. It also has heaps of natty quotes most of which make no sense to me at all but I recall all sorts of enigmatic quotes making sense at one time.

Chapter titles - Collective Enchantment, Trapped in Paradise (his experience with Ann Ree Colton????), Fatal Persuasion, The dark side of groups, Systems - mega groups, The collective machine, going backwards - development regression in groups, creating gods, the neurotic side of religion, the color of the dream (connecting racism with religion), slaying the collective dragon, putting soul into relationship and life after group.

Cheers all

Peter

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 16:00:25 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Re: Another good read on groups/cults
Message:
Thanks, Peter. Another book to read.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:52:25 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Very good post
Message:
Thanks Peter, we need to have a broader bibliography on the EPO pages along with abstracts and a quote or two. Has someone agreed to put it up yet? Nice contribution. Nice to see back here.

Deborah

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:54:15 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Re: Another good read on groups/cults
Message:
This is interesting.
[ brainwashing ]
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 12:22:09 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: UCSantaBarbara
Message:
Warning signs

Concerned that some high-pressure religions pull students at UC Santa Barbara away from studies, family and friends, an interdenominational group called the University Religious Conference outlined the following warning signs:

The group claims to have all the answers.

New members are asked almost immediately to recruit new members.

The group encourages people to put their meetings ahead of all other commitments.

Past religious and social affiliations are criticized.

Recruits are told their parents and friends don't have any answers.

Doubts and questions are seen as signs of weak faith.

Recruits are invited on retreats but are given only a vague idea of the agenda.

Warning signs

Concerned that some high-pressure religions pull students at UC Santa Barbara away from studies, family and friends, an interdenominational group called the University Religious Conference outlined the following warning signs:

The group claims to have all the answers.

New members are asked almost immediately to recruit new members.

The group encourages people to put their meetings ahead of all other commitments.

Past religious and social affiliations are criticized.

Recruits are told their parents and friends don't have any answers.

Doubts and questions are seen as signs of weak faith.

Recruits are invited on retreats but are given only a vague idea of the agenda.

To see more documents/articles regarding this group/organization/subject click here.

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