Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Sep 01, 2001 To: Sep 08, 2001 Page: 4 of: 5


Jim -:- How to -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 16:40:14 (EDT)
__ Deborah -:- Hi Jim--amazing isn't it? -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:35:06 (EDT)
__ Dirk -:- Jim, Rawat is NOT a Liar... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:57:39 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- That made me laugh :) -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:33:08 (EDT)
__ Passing Through -:- But no cigar -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 06:05:20 (EDT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Wow! Really grabbing at some straws there! -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:20:51 (EDT)
__ __ Pauline Premie -:- Wonderful, PT -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:46:13 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Tell that to the judge -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:37:00 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- That's just being stupid -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:24:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ SC -:- Jimbo, hire new writers -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 12:52:19 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Bravo, PT! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 06:49:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ Passing Through -:- Re: Bravo, Jerry -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:28:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Encore! Encore! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:54:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dirk -:- Jerry..that was NOT Twisted Logic -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:51:08 (EDT)
__ kijai -:- Re: How to -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 05:15:48 (EDT)
__ __ Chuck S. -:- Very interesting... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:09:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Passing Through -:- Don't leave home Chuck S -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:39:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Very interesting... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:49:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- What God is... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:18:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: What God is... -:- Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 16:21:12 (EDT)
__ __ Passing Through -:- Get real Ki Jai! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 06:09:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Timmi -:- Re: Get real Ki Jai! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:20:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Stale mate Timmi -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:18:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- PT, You're a great Spindoctor... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:11:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- The Sindoctor... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:55:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- Man you're pathetic -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:11:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Forget it, Cynth -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:18:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Forget it, Cynth -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:01:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jorge -:- 'I thank Maharaji for giving me a boyfriend..' -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:46:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Passing Through -:- Jorge's family -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:45:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jorge -:- Re: Jorge's family -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:47:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jorge -:- P.S. PT -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:51:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Chuck S. -:- K Lite is bait, Industrial Strengh K is the goal -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:27:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jorge -:- Why my dad left the cult -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:57:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Your dad had morals, Jorge -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 16:21:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Good story Jorge [nt] -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:52:18 (EDT)
__ bill -:- great choice [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 21:08:31 (EDT)

STATEMENT BY VICTIIMS -:- ATTACKED BY THE MAHARAJI CULT -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 15:02:54 (EDT)
__ Cedron -:- All hail the master -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 23:26:52 (EDT)
__ __ btdt -:- Re: All hail the master -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:22:49 (EDT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Well said all, I agree . Pat Dorrity [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 16:17:10 (EDT)

Check This -:- out - What you do.... -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 12:20:06 (EDT)
__ JohnT -:- not a lot -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 08:13:40 (EDT)

cq -:- Brave New World? -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 12:02:31 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- Brave New World: RF mind control! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 13:19:00 (EDT)
__ __ Bob -:- Re: Brave New World: RF mind control! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:34:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Brave New World: RF mind control! -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:10:49 (EDT)

19th Century Revivalism/Conversion -:- Just read this/ Same old xxxx -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 09:13:02 (EDT)
__ Chuck S. -:- Different lyrics, but the same song... -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 15:05:34 (EDT)
__ __ Thank You, Chuck -:- Re: Different lyrics, but the same song... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:52:24 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- CAC, EV and Scientology: same methods -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:11:51 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: CAC, EV and Scientology: same methods -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:47:29 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Why care so much if this is stupid? -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 06:08:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Why care so much if this is stupid? -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:07:42 (EDT)
__ salam -:- This is a must read -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 05:14:33 (EDT)
__ Catweasel -:- Duhhhhhhhh -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:28:27 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Neither use nor ornament... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:20:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Neither use nor ornament... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:34:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- yea well, you know Cat, -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:58:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Steve M -:- Hey Cat - swapya........... -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:10:08 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Holy Cow! very intersting, J-M. [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:13:14 (EDT)

Peter Howie -:- Why would anyone want to leave MJ -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 00:59:24 (EDT)
__ Catweasel -:- Well Pete it's like this... -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:43:47 (EDT)
__ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Well Pete it's like this... -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:45:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Well Pete it's like this... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:41:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Well Pete it's like this... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:56:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Well Pete it's like this... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 08:50:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Well Pete it's like this... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:35:10 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- quote Dick Sutphen -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 16:53:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: quote Richard Prior -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:22:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: quote Richard Prior -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:08:46 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- That's typical, Cat... -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 14:15:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia..the POINT is -:- to Irritate YOU so that... -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:19:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Is that you NIGEL? -:- YOU irrtate so that..you get scratched. -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:42:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- No. -:- Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 06:04:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Fantasyland -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:37:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Fantasyland -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 20:00:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Steve -:- Sneeringville -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 00:33:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- So true, Steve -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:35:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Sneeringville -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:48:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Sneeringville -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 02:00:28 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- A question, Cat -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 05:27:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: A question, Cat -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 06:36:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- Re: then,Another question, Cat -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 17:07:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: then,Another question, Cat -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:45:27 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Your two bobs' worth at least two quid -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:07:37 (EDT)

Peter Howie -:- CAC - better than it could have been -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 00:37:18 (EDT)
__ Tonette -:- But the exodus is just starting -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 11:04:37 (EDT)
__ __ SC -:- Sorry to disappoint you Toni -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 12:18:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Re: Sorry to disappoint you Toni -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:11:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Sorry to disappoint you Toni -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 18:29:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SC -:- Yes we do -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 22:47:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- the risks of freedom -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:11:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- You speak with full pockets... -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 14:24:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Hey, you were forgetting your heart -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 13:57:41 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- US yoga mobs? Where? When? Do tell! -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:12:00 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: US yoga mobs? Where? When? Do tell! -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 05:23:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: US yoga mobs? Where? When? Do tell! -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 14:04:11 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- When cults disintegrate -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 01:42:36 (EDT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Re: When cults disintegrate -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 05:25:34 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Re: CAC - better than it could have been -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 00:45:30 (EDT)

Jim -:- Two simple questions for premies -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 22:29:24 (EDT)
__ Dirk -:- and a question for Passing Through -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 23:37:35 (EDT)

silvia -:- I found this: PREMIE TALK -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 22:09:52 (EDT)

A Brief History in time line -:- of a Rawat cult member -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 09:57:27 (EDT)
__ Gregg -:- Poetic Wholeness -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 23:12:23 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- You can say that again! -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 00:26:15 (EDT)
__ fan-tastic -:- A per-fect summary! nt -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 18:17:09 (EDT)
__ fan-tastic -:- A per-fect summary! nt -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 18:17:02 (EDT)
__ michael donner -:- Re: of a Rawat cult member -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:55:56 (EDT)
__ __ chuckF -:- Re: of a Rawat cult member -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:51:14 (EDT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Way cool! -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 17:07:21 (EDT)

it IS so -:- polling both open re:CAC -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 08:13:48 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Your typos, Salam -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 14:13:01 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- No, that's new to me -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 19:26:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: No, that's new to me -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 19:32:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- As salasa says, kick ass. -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 20:28:24 (EDT)
__ salsa -:- kick ass NT -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 08:18:27 (EDT)

pierre -:- Get off that computer now!(ot) -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 06:57:38 (EDT)
__ silvia -:- Tell that to Maharaji -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 08:56:37 (EDT)
__ pierre -:- Be afraid - It's happening -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 09:34:07 (EDT)
__ __ Julian -:- No need for masters -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:33:55 (EDT)
__ __ silvia -:- taugh question -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 10:16:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ pierre -:- Re: taugh question -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 11:58:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Rick W -:- Hawking -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 23:54:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- What a delightful conversation -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 14:06:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ pierre -:- Re: What a delightful conversation -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 16:02:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: What a delightful conversation -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 23:47:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Love of Self -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 16:28:59 (EDT)

From the MASTER -:- is he ever going to stop? -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 00:41:34 (EDT)
__ bill- -:- Idiot is still promising 'to be one' [nt] -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 06:35:49 (EDT)
__ __ Djuro -:- Re: Idiot is still promising 'to be one' -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 10:50:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ salsa but no ketchup -:- Djuro, get a working brain -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 15:26:52 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Same old religious fundamentalism -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 04:38:35 (EDT)
__ __ Carl -:- Thanks for that link! -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 11:32:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- respectful humor -:- Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 14:09:22 (EDT)
__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Same old religious fundamentalism -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 17:46:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks Deb -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 19:30:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Thanks Deb -:- Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:47:41 (EDT)
__ __ janet -:- thanks for that deep drink -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 05:02:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Peg -:- Yes thanks Pat -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 06:14:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Re: Yes thanks Pat -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 17:16:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Post-cult clarity and sanity -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 13:37:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Re: Post-cult clarity and sanity -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 17:52:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Post-cult clarity and sanity -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 19:39:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Post-cult clarity and sanity -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 16:40:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Post-cult clarity and sanity -:- Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 17:04:41 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 16:40:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: How to
Message:
Some friends over last night asked me what this whole cult thing is that I was joking about. I brought them into the office and said I'd explain it all in two minutes, they just had to read two things. First, I showed them this:

Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......
When human beings forget this one way, then our Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give us practical Knowlege, ....But, most ironically, we don't appreciate the Lord when He comes in His human body on this earth. Similarly, a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing... So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light. And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith.

Then I showed them this:

Did Maharaji ever say he was God?

No, Maharaji never at any time claimed to be God. As an Indian national, when Maharaji first started teaching in the west when he was 13 years old, he used many examples from eastern traditions which demonstrated that a student seeking fulfillment could do so by choosing to follow the teachings of a guru or master. As he matured he realized that western traditions put a very different emphasis on the idea of guru and wrongly attributed messianic labels in this process. He changed his language to use the term master only and gradually removed all Indian associations from his teaching, as this is not a path just for Indians but is something that is available for anyone regardless of color, religion or race. It is acknowledged that many people at the time were already looking for a messianic type figure. That Maharaji was not such a figure disappointed some people.

Didn't have to say another word.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:35:06 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hi Jim--amazing isn't it?
Message:
Nobody who is not in THIS cult will ever argue. The whole thing is just crazy. Actually makes the Scientologists look good.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:57:39 (EDT)
From: Dirk
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, Rawat is NOT a Liar...
Message:
He is a MANIFESTATION of a Liar. You MUST Understand this!!
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:33:08 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Dirk
Subject: That made me laugh :)
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 06:05:20 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But no cigar
Message:
PT: Gee, if only you given them more than two minutes.
They might have realized that there is a world of difference between being 'highest manifestation of God' and being 'God'.
Even I can claim to be a manifestation of 'God' and, forgive the ego, a higher manifestation than a rock.
This speach outlines the traditional Indian concept of the Guru as the highest manifestation of God, just as we refer to a priest as a 'man of God'.
Not that we're not all 'men or women of God' but a Guru's or priest's life is dedicated to God in a way a normal person's isn't.
'So when Guru is here, God is here'
Indeed, because the role of the Guru is to remind people of God, to make God real in people's lives.
' Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego)'
The important part of this quote is 'of illusion and ego'.
Creator, operator and destroyer of illusion and ego, not creator, operator and destroyer of the world.
The rest of the quote varies between M talking about a 'God' who is apart from him
---
-- ' then OUR Lord, who is the Lord of the whole universe, comes in human body to give US practical Knowlege, (as Maharaji himself received)....But, most ironically, WE don't appreciate the Lord when he comes in his human body on this earth'
And M talking about the Guru
---

---
- 'Similarly (important word, clearly suggesting that a Satguru etc is not the same as the above), a Satguru, a Perfect Master, a Supreme Lord who is existing in the present time, can give you the practical Knowledge of the real thing' .
The 'real thing'?
Clearly not of himself.
Which M's Guru did and M now does.
Once again M talks about God
---
- 'So God Himself comes to give practical Knowledge of His divinity, of His inner self, which is self-effulgent light, eternal light, all-pervading light'
And once again he talks about the teacher
---
-- 'And the Supreme Master, the Satguru, gives practical Knowledge of that light, irrespective of caste, creed, color, religion or sex, to those human individuals who bow before him with reverence, with love and with faith'
God is everywhere.
There is no place God isn't.
But God uses the Guru to reveal himself to people.
Just as God uses a musician to reveal music to people.
As they say, there is none so blind as those that will not see.
PT
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 03:20:51 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Wow! Really grabbing at some straws there!
Message:
You don't really believe that crap do you? It's okay to call a spade a spade.
Just watch out for that light 'brighter than 10,00 suns.'
You're very confused. What M shows is not God, it's the never ending hum of one's nervous system while alive. Knowledge has no link to anything but the firing of neurons, axioms and dendrites. It is not divine and neither is he. He's an immoral con artist who delights in material things. M's done far more harm than good while dispensing his 'gift.'
If there is a God, you insult him with you explanation, convoluted as it is. How cheap you make him out to be!
I feel so sorry for you.

Tonette

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:46:13 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Wonderful, PT
Message:
I am just so blissed out reading your post. Finally, somebody providing that understanding and that clarity, which is that gift and that love.

I mean, it's really true that everything is a manifestation of God, and so, when Maharaji says he is the greatest incarnation of God, he just means he's just like everyone and everything else, a manifestation of God. He is just greater because he's got the best clothes. Thanks so much for explaining that.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 14:37:00 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Tell that to the judge
Message:
And he'll have land for you in Florida. yeessshhhh
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:24:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: That's just being stupid
Message:
PT,

You know as well as I do that only someone in your cult wouldn't laugh in your face at this bullshit. That's why it's a cult.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 12:52:19 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jimbo, hire new writers
Message:
'You know as well as I do that only someone in your cult wouldn't laugh in your face at this bullshit. That's why it's a cult.'

....That's your stock standard answer these days.....boring as BS

Prey tell me barrister...

WHAT THE FUCK'S WRONG WITH A LOVELY , FEELGOOD, HAPPY, DISORGANISED, FAITHFUL, WIDESPREAD, SOFT, CLASSIC, BEAUTIFUL, EASY GOING, NON THREATENEING, NON INCLUSIVE, ENTIRELY FREEBASED, DEEPLY LOVED AND THOROUGHLY WHOLESOME, IMPOSSIBLE TO MANAGE CULT ?

I've been kicking at it for 30 years now and it still hasn't kicked back.

I therefore declare it a 'thoroughly mellow cult'.

SC

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 06:49:24 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Bravo, PT!
Message:
I've never seen a more brilliant display of twisted logic in all my life. Really, an OUTSTANDING performance! Particularly in comparing a priest to a guru, you had me going. But a priest doesn't claim to be a manifestation of God, he claims Jesus is that, and only Jesus. He makes no claims for himself the way a guru does. A priest believes Jesus is both God and man, just like a guru believes that about himself.

You're just twisting reason to suit yourself, but I don't sense any attempt to arrive at a truthful conclusion, PT. That's why I take little of what you say seriously. You reach too far to twist the facts to your way of seeing things. It looks desperate.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:28:02 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Bravo, Jerry
Message:
Dear Jerry,
A good priest believe's that God created this word and everything in it.
Everything is a manisfestation of God.
Including you.
I don't sense any williingness on you behalf to accept the truth.
Like most others you have not just given up on Knowledge, you have also given up on knowledge.
PT
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 20:54:14 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Encore! Encore!
Message:
Everything is a manisfestation of God.
Including you.
I don't sense any williingness on you behalf to accept the truth.

I wouldn't speak so fast on this being the truth, PT. It's debatable whether there is a God. It might well be that God is a manifestation of the human mind. How much have you studied on the evolution of consciousness from a scientific viewpoint? There's a wealth of 'knowledge' to be gained from it. I suspect you don't know much about it and are merely content with what you believe without questioning where those beliefs come from or how true they are. I think a little education on what science has learned with a little reflection on that might cause you to re-evaluate those beliefs. Do you dare?

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:51:08 (EDT)
From: Dirk
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry..that was NOT Twisted Logic
Message:
It was a MANIFESTATION of Twisted Logic...You MUST Understand the Difference!!
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 05:15:48 (EDT)
From: kijai
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: How to
Message:
In these days of knowledge lite, the new truth was at first presented as something people could start with, without 'freaking out' that it was weird.
As new people developed more 'understanding' they were deemed as being able to handle more of the 'truth'.
I've read the first satsang before and remember that he definitely said all that and more.
Is that last passage from elan vital website? Sounds like its got so lite it hardly exists.
Also has he denied more of the god thing or super master over the last couple of years?
I ask this because anyone I know who is still into it does still think he is god.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:09:15 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: kijai
Subject: Very interesting...
Message:
I recieved K. in the early 1980's, and recieved the Knowlege Lite version. I was told by an instructor not to listen to the ''old hippy premies'' who talked about M. as God. I do believe that over time, my understanding was supposed to ''deepen'' and I was supposed to accept him as something more than a mere ''teacher'', although in the begining that is what he was presented to me as. I was told in no uncertain terms that guru meant ''teacher''. If I had been presented with old ''Guru is God'' stuff right from the start, I doubt I would have persued it, red flags and alarms would have gone off.

During the 1980's he really toned down the God stuff, probably because of Jonestown. He said he didn't come to people in their dreams, he was flesh and blood just like everyone else. He seemed to discourage the God thing directly, but not indirectly.

To this day, it is still politically incorrect to call him ''God'', but it is also understood that if you have ''that understanding'', then you know who He is. Most permies, I think, believe that he is human AND he is God, or a manifistation of God. For some it may not even be a concious belief anymore, but an emotional one that was instilled when they were young.

You asked: ''Also has he denied more of the god thing or super master over the last couple of years?''

In the 1990's he began to talk alot about the Master, and the importance of the Master and listening to the Master. He began to quote scripture to support his roll as the Master. He often talks about how the world and the people in it as a negative, fearful thing (like a spiderweb or fishnet), and how the premies need the Master to ''save'' them, because no one has ever saved himself, and ''you can't go home without the Master''. Clearly, you need salvation, and He is the Savior. Darshan has come back in Amaroo. He definitly thinks he's something special, and that no one should question him.

This is a far cry from the ''meditation teacher'' I was introduced to. This is why I feel M. is deliberately misleading people. It's the old fundamentalist trick, Bait and Switch. Bait them with all the good sounding, simple, humanitarian, love-is-inside-of-you, isn't-it-nice stuff, then, once you got them hooked, ''Switch'' to your real agenda; fill their heads with paranoia and manipulative, self-serving crap, mixed in with simple trueism's as window dressing to lend it credibility. And make a lot of money in the process.

I felt torn in two for years. I'm so greatful that I got involved in service again last year. It forced me to look at how rotten and ugly it really is, and helped me get out.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:39:54 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Don't leave home Chuck S
Message:
Dear Chuck,
I was told that Maharaji wasn't God in the early '70's but I already knew that.
Only an idiot could think he was.
The general description of God as infinite and eternal excludes the possibilty of a human being being god.
In fact, only the ex-premies claim to think he was.
No wonder you guys got confused.
PT
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:49:14 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: Very interesting...
Message:
Hi Chuck,

i rec'd Knowledge in 1980 and had to recite the vows to receive techniques. Now, I lived in Miami and the BigHead was living their at that time. Do you think that made a difference? Everyone talked about him being god, we even saw old videos on a regular basis.

I don't know haow someone could have lived in Miami and not known that. What I do remember is that the initiators (who were now told to call themselves instructors) told us not to mention the 'truth' becuase the BigHead was trying to recruit the 80's professional types.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:18:30 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: What God is...
Message:
Hi Deb:

I recieved K on Christmas Eve 1981. The vows were simply: Keep the techniques a secret (that really bothered me; now I know why!), Give Knowledge a fair chance, and Keep in touch. No groveling asked for, and 'God' not even mentioned. Very simple. (I was one of those one's who got hooked on the simplicity!)

San Francisco ''community'' then was a pretty wild and politically incorrect one. Some of the hippies refered to M as God, but God means different things to different people. I thought most of them just meant it poetically. Some people claim to see God everywhere, and some even split hairs over wether or not someone can be God AND just human at the same time (like Hindu's believe), or wether some people are particular manifistations or God. It all sounded like imagination to me, and I didn't take it seriously. Years later, I came across some of the old written satsangs, and it gave me the creeps. I only thought ''Good thing he doesn't talk like that anymore'' I didn't realize the extent of the RELIGION, from which this all came from.

The Gay premies instinctively distrusted religion, and often made fun of the PAMS. I figured the ashrams were like monastaries for people who wanted that, and since I didn't, I never had much to do with them. The gay premies poked fun at anything that smacked of religion.

Many of the SF premies thought M was stripping away the religion, and for a while it seemed to us that he was. Premie satsang stopped around 1982 or '83. The premie community quickly disperssed. Pat and I were on the fringe, keeping in touch via programs, videos, and our checkbooks. Then last year we got involved again, when we were invited to participate on the committee. We heard that things had changed. And it had, it was worse than ever! Less chaotic perhaps, but more ''controlled''. No wiggle room. Too cold, too sterile, too boring. I'm so glad we tried it, it made it possible to leave. I recommend syncronized participation for anyone who is having doubts about staying with M. It makes it easier to see what's what.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 06, 2001 at 16:21:12 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: What God is...
Message:
Hi Chuck,

Thanks for giving me that picture. I actually feel more like an older timer becuse of the people that brought me to cult. They were hip, that's for sure, they were fun, but they Lord of the Universe premies, no question about it.

I was prepped for the 70's style initiation. I also recited the old vows. Tell you, I repressed those vows. Sure I remembered off and on that I took vows, but I repressed what they actually were. I was almost sick when someone posted them a couple of months ago.

Living in Miami and living around the corner from the residence enforced that 'Old style' experience. Words spoken were taken verbatem, no question, in the inner circle of Maha.

Calling him client and teacher was social window dressing.

The old timers are in denial by saying that it was any different.

On the other hand, I never had 'serious' concepts about ashrams and never heard about the rotten vegetables if you stopped practicing K. Never. I don't think I would have bought that one. I knew people who preached shakipat and Maha being just one master. They planted a seed for me, but I still thought Maha was Perfect one and only Master.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 06:09:15 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: kijai
Subject: Get real Ki Jai!
Message:
I know, literally, hundreds of people with Knowledge and I doubt anyone thinks M is god.
Some may consider him the 'saviour' (as in Jesus, Buddha etc) but god, I don't think so.
PT
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:20:03 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: Get real Ki Jai!
Message:
I know, literally, hundreds of people with Knowledge and I doubt anyone thinks M is god.
Some may consider him the 'saviour' (as in Jesus, Buddha etc) but god, I don't think so.
PT


---

I don't know what premies you know, but the ones I know all believe he is god, even though they may deny it. Obviously, they still worship this loathsome creature. Quite sickening to see apparently intelligent humans act like that towards another, in this case very flawed, human.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:18:09 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Timmi
Subject: Stale mate Timmi
Message:
Timmi says: 'the ones I know all believe he is god, even though they may deny it'.
PT: What arrogance!
Even though the people concerned say they don't believe M is god, you insist they do.
Talk about cult thinking, anyone who disagrees with you is ignored.
And what's worse, you actually 'know'.
Welcome to the ex-premie version of Sims where you create a cult and people it with people who believe what you want them to believe.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:11:53 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: PT, You're a great Spindoctor...
Message:
Maharaji said 'Guru is Greater than God.'

Now, just this year in Amaroo, premies lined up to kiss the feet of who? A Malibu playboy? An incompetent meditation teacher?

Who?

Premies still believe Maharaji is the Lord Incarnate. I don't know any Christians who line up to kiss the feet of priests, ministers, or nuns. Catholics consider the Pope to be the link to God, so they kiss his ring...which, IMO, is going too far.

Read the words to arti, which, Btw, was also sung to Maharaji in Amaroo.

This is a personality cult in which the leader, Rawat, calls all the shots. The premies who had knowlege when I received K in 1976 (prior to being an aspirant from 8/75-1/76) ALL believed, KNEW, he was the Lord. By his Grace. It's HIS lila.

We drank foot water, charanmrit; we ate prassad, food off of his plate. Who do you think you are kidding trying to make this argument?

I was around M in Miami a lot. Every day when he came to the design room at DECA, the architects, draftsmen when down on his feet, bare in sandals...are you salivating yet?

You have some nerve calling Timmi arrogant.

What about all the altars? What about all the festivals when he dressed up as Krishna and wore a crown? He didn't walk around as Jesus did, in raggy clothes, because Maharaji prefers Armani, or other $5,000 suits.

I personally heard him say he was the lord of the universe. How can you dispute that?

The reason old-time premies deny saying they believe Maharaji is the Lord is because HE TOLD THEM TO STOP. Remember the big time hoe out of all materials when communities and premies were told to destroy all evidence pertaining to m being the Lord incarnate, the Perfect Master of His Time?

Give me a fucking break; you are as transparant as your so-called teacher.

You're a piece of work, PT. You can't think straight. Too much meditation? Caught in a trancelike state that you cannot remove yourself from?

Stop harrassing ex-premies here. We know what we're talking about. Every time you come here you make a huge fool out of yourself.

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 22:55:19 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The Sindoctor...
Message:
Dear Cynthia,
The quote 'God is great but Guru is Greater because he reveals God.' makes M's position clear.
Who would want to be god when you can be the guru?

Cynthia: Now, just this year in Amaroo, premies lined up to kiss the feet of who?
PT: Not quite! The lined up to walk past M, displays of devotion were optional.

Cynthia: Premies still believe Maharaji is the Lord Incarnate.
PT: Some do, some don't. Everyone is entitled to form their own conclusions.

Cynthia: Who do you think you are kidding trying to make this argument?
PT: I'm not saying some people don't believe M is the saviour. My argument is that he didn't say he was god.

Cynthia: What about all the festivals when he dressed up as Krishna and wore a crown?
PT: Maharaji does mean 'great king'.

Cynthia: He didn't walk around as Jesus did, in raggy clothes.
PT: Ignorance of Knowledge is not excuse for ignorance of knowledge. In fact, Jesus's robes were expensive, of one piece rather than several. And when he was crucified, the soldiers drew lots to see who would have them.
When people criticized Jesus for the amount of money people spent on him and siad it should be spent on the poor, Jesus replied 'I will be with you for a short time, the poor willl be with you always'.

Cynthia: I personally heard him say he was the lord of the universe. How can you dispute that?
PT: Well if I was Timmi, I'd just say you were lying. But I don't care.
What do you think a Lord of the Universe is? And why does it bug everyone so much?

Cynthia: Every time you come here you make a huge fool out of yourself.
PT: I don't believe someone who believes Jesus wore raggy clothes is qualified to determine who's a fool.

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 00:11:52 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Man you're pathetic
Message:
PT,

You are so fucking sad and I really hope one day you see it. Don't feel too bad when you do, we were all the same as you once.

No doubt Father Mickey 'll be correcting you on your Jesus comparison with maha.

If Jim and Debs were banned from the premie forum for being too negative and attacking then maybe we'll vote to kick you off here , unless you can say something critical or negative about that slimy toad you worship.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:18:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Forget it, Cynth
Message:
He's dishonest and he knows it.
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 10:01:29 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Forget it, Cynth
Message:
I've given up on these trolls.

It was a little fun to argue, but it's really a waste of time.

Gotta go...late!
Love,
Cynth

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:46:49 (EDT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: 'I thank Maharaji for giving me a boyfriend..'
Message:
I know, literally, hundreds of people with Knowledge and I doubt anyone thinks M is god.
Some may consider him the 'saviour' (as in Jesus, Buddha etc) but god, I don't think so.
PT


---

That's my aunt I'm quoting from a conversation two years ago in a chinese restaurant. I was an aspirant at the time and this kind of talk freaked me out. She also said something like:'You are learning to love him...'

My auntie joined in the mid-eighties, as well as my dad, some cousins and one of my sisters (who never really got into it). My dad who is out now, tells me how for him M was god on earth and that nothing was too good for him. Where did he get this idea? Where did my aunt get this belief? Just confusion? I doubt it very much.

My aunt opened up to me at that moment in the restaurant because she thought I was ready for it. After she realized I wasn't and that a cult alarm rang in my head, she clammed up.

My teens were full of people who thought M was god. Those FAQs are laughable.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:45:08 (EDT)
From: Passing Through
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Jorge's family
Message:
Dear Jorge,
I have been trying to track down the origin of all these concepts.
I now believe that your family is the source.
Aunty, Dad, sister, cousins?
By the way, how did your sister manage to break free?
It sounds as if she just left it.
You know, just decided not to do it.
PT
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:47:16 (EDT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Passing Through
Subject: Re: Jorge's family
Message:
They were handing out knowledge like halloween candy corn in Peru at that time. You only had to go to a meeting once or twice at most. She was never conviced, but it was like: 'Hey, want a drag of my cigarrette?' Sure, why not?
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:51:32 (EDT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: P.S. PT
Message:
My family the source of those concepts?

What a ridiculous and stupid thing to say.
What a dick!

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:27:32 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: K Lite is bait, Industrial Strengh K is the goal
Message:
That was very much the K. Lite of the 1980's. Don't freak the aspirants out with the God stuff, but let them ''learn'' to love M. And it's STILL like that. That is why there is such control over the aspirant process. It's all about getting the aspirant to accept M. as ''You-Know-Who''. Which is also why there has been such a huge drop-out rate.

M. is so out of touch with the average person, he needs an ''aspirant process'' to (theoretically) give them Knowlege, but it's really about opening them up to recieve him as their Master. Lure them in with The Teacher, then Switch to The Master.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:57:37 (EDT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Why my dad left the cult
Message:
One day at a question and answer session in the mid-eighties, M humiliated a premie in public, because he asked him why he didn't wear a krishna costume anymore.

My father knew this premie. He knew how this poor guy loved M.

He told me that M acted with such cruelty towards this guy (and in front of a large crowd at that) that there was no way he could consider him god or master or anything anymore.
So that was it. He quit.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 16:21:19 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Your dad had morals, Jorge
Message:
Rawat and most of his followers do not.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 15:52:18 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Good story Jorge [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 21:08:31 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: great choice [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 15:02:54 (EDT)
From: STATEMENT BY VICTIIMS
Email: None
To: All
Subject: ATTACKED BY THE MAHARAJI CULT
Message:
STATEMENT BY VICTIMS ATTACKED BY THE MAHARAJI CULT

August 30, 2001

The undersigned were recently attacked by unnamed premies (devotees of Maharaji), by means of an Internet website called “Citizens Against Cyberstalking” (www.stopcyberstalkers.org) which, at first glance, appeared to be a public service to the victims of harassment. These premies targeted the twelve of us, who are all former followers of Maharaji (“ex-premies”), by labeling us criminal “cyberstalkers,” and by listing our names with eight other alleged “cyberstalkers” who included child molesters and kidnappers.

The website was an incitement to anyone viewing the site to contact our employers, families, professional associations, licensing bureaus, and other entities to inform them that we had engaged in criminal activity. The website provided corresponding addresses, telephone numbers and email links for them to easily do so. The website also included our pictures, disclosed addresses of our homes and businesses, telephone numbers and email addresses. In one extreme attempt at intimidation, the authors of the website even went so far as to provide the picture of the young child of one of the ex-premies, and listed the address of where the child lived. It also included false, out-of-context, and misleading information about all of us, including twisted and fabricated quotes these premies used as “proof” of their allegations of our mental illness or criminal activity.

The obvious goal of these premies was to blackmail and intimidate us so that we would refrain from posting about Maharaji and his cult on the Internet. The perpetrators specifically offered to refrain from further blackmail if the victim did so. Sadly, one of our numbers, so frightened about the safety of his daughter whose picture and address were displayed, capitulated publicly to the blackmail and his name was then removed from the “cyberstalker” list.

We believe we were singled out for attack from among the hundreds of ex-premies who have posted on the Internet because we are perceived to have been effective in helping premies who no longer want to be a part of the Maharaji cult, who were staying out of fear or other reasons, to leave the cult by supplying information that has been kept secret by the cult for many years, and by generally offering them support. Some of us were targeted because of what would appear to be our particular vulnerability to blackmail. Three out of the twelve appear to have been chosen because they are gay, one appears to have been chosen because his child was vulnerable to attack, and most of us were chosen partly because we have posted under our own names on the Internet, and hence were easily identifiable.

The website authors claimed that as premies they, themselves, have been the victims of defamation, harassment and other illegal activities at the hands of ex-premies, but no proof whatsoever was provided. Much less, no proof was provided that any of us, the actual victims of the website, had engaged in any such activities, and we categorically deny that we have done so.

Although the perpetrators claim to consist of four individuals, we have reason to believe that Elan Vital, the front organization for Maharaji, and Maharaji himself, may have instigated, contributed to, or condoned this attack. We have been informed by reliable sources that Elan Vital has been “monitoring,” collecting data on, and even doing external investigations of, ex-premies who have posted on the Internet about Maharaji. We have also been informed that Elan Vital has assigned monitors to review our postings to compile extensive files on all of us, and we feel there is good reason to believe, based on the nature of the attack and who was chosen for the attack, that that information compiled by Elan Vital was used to prepare the website, and to defame and attempt to intimidate us. Whether the Elan Vital hierarchy officially condoned the use of this information is difficult to know.

Under the circumstances, we find Elan Vital’s press release of August 23, 2001, both utterly inadequate and insulting, because it does not specifically condemn this attack, and it blames the victims for causing it. We are concerned because the press release is yet another “dig” at ex-premies, and might encourage the more fanatical of Elan Vital’s members to do something similar. We also suspect that Prem Pal Singh Rawat (aka Maharaji) may have been personally involved, at least to the extent of tacit approval, since to date we are aware of no public statement by him disavowing the website and its perpetrators.

After threats of legal action were made publicly by several of us, the website was modified on August 23, 2001 and replaced with a statement that the premies behind the site would be contributing their “database of resources” to two unnamed organizations. This statement, which implies further dissemination of the defamatory material, as well as the possibility that it or a similar website could appear at any time, makes it even more alarming that we have yet to see any statement whatsoever from Mr. Rawat about this, nor have we seen any evidence of attempts by him to attempt to stop his more fanatic devotees from doing anything similar in the future. Since the perpetrators claim personal allegiance to Mr. Rawat and his teachings, we feel Mr. Rawat has a moral and ethical obligation to make such a public statement.

This event is an ominous sign. Until recently, most of us believed that the more fanatical elements had died out years ago after the Mahatma Fakiranand incident in the 1970s. But these events, as well as earlier attempts by Mr. Rawat’s lawyers to shut down the websites through which ex-premies share information, lead us to believe that the Maharaji cult may be headed in the same direction as other destructive cults, such as Scientology, which attack former members who disclose critical information and opinions. Since we the undersigned stand behind our statements and opinions, and do so by not being anonymous, and because we intend to continue speaking about the subjects of Mr. Rawat and our former cult, we are understandably concerned about our safety.

We can understand why the cult is concerned about us, to the extent of wanting us to be intimidated off the Internet. In addition to providing a support for premies leaving the cult, ex-premies have been extremely effective in publicizing the fact that Maharaji is not at all the person he has tried to project, and in fact he has serious personal flaws that he has attempted over the years, with great effort, to keep secret.

We have also pointed out that Maharaji's priorities do not appear to be what he professes. During the same time he has amassed immense wealth for himself personally, he has failed utterly in 'spreading knowledge' and has thousands fewer followers today in the West than he had 20 years ago. He rarely does 'introductory programs,' rarely advertises his existence or that of 'knowledge,' and has shown little interest in doing anything other than retaining his core audience, his dwindling group of devotees from the 70s, and engaging in technological gimmicks, pretending that these are finally going to spread the word, after 30 years of failed attempts.

If anyone needs any proof of the fact that Maharaji has reverted to his “Lord of the Universe” roots to retain these devotees, they need only note that as recently as a few months ago, in a high-security enclave in Australia, Maharaji had these devotees sing ARTI to him, a lengthy Hindu song premies sang to him in the 70s, which clearly describes Maharaji as a deity, and more extreme yet, Maharaji had those same devotees line up by the hundreds to kiss his feet. Neither Maharaji, nor Elan Vital, are about to tell any potential aspirant that such events occur in the year 2001, as Elan Vital deceptively presents Maharaji to the unsuspecting world as northing more than a entirely secular, modern, meditation master. But if these people happen to turn to the Internet, they just might learn the whole truth, and armed with more complete information, make up their own minds about who Maharaji is and what he offers. For these reasons, we will not be intimidated from providing a public service by speaking out freely about Maharaji.

Joseph Whalen
Anthony Ginn
Marianne Bachers
Jeffrey Leason
William Williams
Salam Al-Ahmar
Michael Dettmers
Patrick Conlon
Jim Heller
Jean-Michel Kahn
Gerry Lyng

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 23:26:52 (EDT)
From: Cedron
Email: None
To: STATEMENT BY VICTIIMS
Subject: All hail the master
Message:

All hail the master
Who has forgotten
A simple truth
That's on the street.

For it was love
And love alone
That brought the people
To his feet.

And though he'll fight
With tooth and nail
Against the enemies
Of his kingdom,

He'll never win
This battle royal
But will concede
To higher wisdom.

*********************

O great one,
Your cannon is an empty shell
Your guns impotent and laid waste.
All around you is confusion
All about you, fear and darkness.

And the lesson to be learned is this:
The greatest truth that ever shone,
Is written in every heart that lives.
Love loves to love love.
There is nought else.


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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:22:49 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Cedron
Subject: Re: All hail the master
Message:
This is a great poem. It says everything.
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 16:17:10 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: STATEMENT BY VICTIIMS
Subject: Well said all, I agree . Pat Dorrity [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 12:20:06 (EDT)
From: Check This
Email: None
To: All
Subject: out - What you do....
Message:
Cult wars have found a new battleground on the Internet. Mainline anti-cult organizations are more active on the Internet in the United States than in Europe, where extreme anti-cultism and a lunatic fringe have a more dominant presence on the Internet. Cyberterrorism, in its technical sense, is almost completely absent in the Internet cult wars. Offensive information warfare, or information terrorism, as defined by its mainline scholars, on the other hand, includes what the most extreme anti-cultists do on the Web as well as on the Usenet. The most effective tool used by extreme anti-cultists has been, perhaps, the systematic copyright infringement perpetrated against the Church of Scientology. It has also elicited the most vigorous legal reactions. Outside of the copyright field, lists of private individuals identified as 'cultists', 'cult apologists', or 'cult supporters', may have a discriminating effect and eventually cause violence (as evidenced by another case of single-issue Internet terrorism, i.e. abortion and the Nuremberg Files). 'Victories' scored on the Internet, however, are largely symbolic. Only a very limited number of people interested in, or members of, new religious movements actually care about the Web, and probably even less about the Usenet. The claims made by Mayer (1999) that a certain number of persons have left new religious movements because of oppositional propaganda read on the Internet is interesting, but should be re-evaluated by follow-up quantitative studies. If fast-growing international movements such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses lose ten or twenty people per year because of the Internet, they are probably right in their decision not to divert too many energies to the Web but to expend their energies instead on regular proselytization activities. The damage inflicted by Greenwood on Sűkyô Mahikari may have been more extensive, but one wonders whether this is equally true outside of Europe and Australia (in Japan or even in Africa, a remarkably unwired continent), and whether Mahikari is perhaps the exception rather than the rule. Carrying online crusades offline is a notoriously difficult exercise.

There are also a number of counter-effects for the anti-cult movement as a whole. Initially enthused by the unexpected support from extreme Internet anti-cultists, mainline anti-cult organizations (particularly in the U.S.) are now increasingly embarrassed by the extreme tactics, wild conspiracy theories, and association with political and religious extremism of the most extreme Internet anti-cult combatants. While European anti-cult organizations use information obtained from the Internet fringe quite liberally (and reciprocate by offering links from their Web sites, together with promotion in their printed newsletters), the U.S. anti-cult community is increasingly suspicious and wary of potential embarrassment. After all, association with the extreme Internet fringe may well become, in the next decade, what the association with deprogrammers was in the 1980s and early 1990s for larger anti-cult organizations. It is, of course, even more embarrassing when European governments include unchecked information picked up on the Web and the Usenet in their official documents. This practice caused at least two diplomatic incidents in 1999, when, for instance, the French Mission to Fight Cults exposed a member of the U.S. official fact-finding delegation investigating religious intolerance in France as an 'activist of one of the most dangerous international transnational cults' (when she was, in fact, a member of a small Christian charismatic congregation). In the same year, again acting on information picked up on the Internet, the French delegation at an international diplomatic conference on religious pluralism organized in Vienna by the Organization for Security and Co-Operation in Europe (OSCE), wrongly accused three speakers, including one of the official rapporteurs on religious intolerance designated by the OSCE [7], of being Scientologists or representatives of the Church of Scientology.

Governments may carry a heavy responsibility in generating violence both against, and by, assaulted minorities. The extreme discourse of the most lunatic Internet anti-cult fringe may claim legitimisation by the similar rhetoric used in French and Belgian official documents. Violence, as Sprinzak (1999, 311-312 and 317) comments, 'does not just originate from below, from individuals who do not respect the law. Governments and government agencies are responsible for the generation of large amounts of violence'. 'The deeper the sense of delegitimation' experienced by a minority 'vis-ŕ-vis the government or another political rival, the higher its readiness to use physical force against the perceived foe. Intense delegitimation has in fact a double effect on the likelihood of violence. Not only does it increase the chances of violence against the object of delegitimation, but that object, sensing the imminent threat, is likely to consider counterviolence'. In other words, and even apart from such deviance amplification scenarios, political and religious 'violence is not a product of inherently violent people but of social and political circumstances'.

Diplomatic incidents confirm, on the other hand, that in order to take advantage of Internet as a resource, and thus avoid the trappings of Internet terrorism, a hierarchy of sources must be recreated. There is no reason why this should not happen, even in the limited field of religious information or new religious movements. While celebrations of the Internet as a new and more democratic approach to information were probably premature, dystopic perspectives of manipulated Internet hierarchies subverting offline hierarchies, destroying responsibility and accountability in the process, need not necessarily prevail. Students educated in the use of the Internet since primary school (Garner and Gillingham 1996), religious leaders, reporters, and perhaps in the long run even French government officials, will learn to distinguish between the Web equivalents of tabloids and The New York Times. Gackenbach and Ellerman (1998) invite us to avoid the easy comparison with television, and ''take a lesson from radio' instead. Before the 1920s, and in some countries up to World War II, radio was dominated by thousands of small, independent local stations. Almost everybody was able to air literally anything from radio stations, originally with little or no control, and widespread fears were expressed that people would believe anything coming from them (perhaps originating from foreign spies and other subversives). 'The exponential growth of the Internet', Gackenbach and Ellerman (1998, 11) note, 'has happened before', with radio. Although some secret services did use radio stations for pre-war propaganda, ultimately the worst doom scenarios were never realized. Slowly but surely, it was not only technological evolutions and governmental regulations that limited the number of stations and created more accountability (a development we may, or may not, see on the Internet in the near future), but the ordinary citizen was now able to reconstruct and internalize a new hierarchy of information sources, including radio. It is true that, after a few years, information hierarchy frames had to be reconstructed and re-internalized in order to include television, and today we face the Internet. Technologies, however, are also social, and technological determinism has been largely debunked as a positivistic fallacy. While vigilance against information terrorism via the Internet is in order, the best weapon against any form of information terrorism will ultimately be the integration of new sources into the already existing and internalized hierarchy of information sources. Education, social science, and courts of law (reconstructing new meanings to cater for concepts such as copyright or defamation as applied to cyberspace) will each have a major role to play in this eminently human enterprise.
[ Anti-cult Terror ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 08:13:40 (EDT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Check This
Subject: not a lot
Message:
Also from the linked article: The Church of Scientology (which has obtained quite a few court orders against Internet opponents on the basis of copyright infringement) and its critics have liberally traded accusations of 'copyright terrorism'. For the Church of Scientology, this is systematic copyright infringement, while for its opponents the real 'terrorism' lies in its use of the copyright law for the purpose of silencing its critics (Holeton 1998, 353).

Cults, with their secret doctrines, dare not say what they are REALLY about. That is why the Scientologists fought so hard to prevent their secret teachings being exposed to ridicule -- and it is why 'Captain' Prempal Rawat of Malibu tries to prevent his ridiculous posturings being widely promulgated.

These organisations would attract very few people if fair comment on their ridiculous pretensions were more prevalent. The 'terrorism' is in the use of copyright law. It is an affront to all our rights to prevent people from talking about what these organisations 'believe', and how silly their adherents really are.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 12:02:31 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Brave New World?
Message:
'Man does not have the right to develop his own mind. This kind of liberal orientation has great appeal. We must electrically control the brain. Some day armies and generals will be controlled by electrical stimulation of the brain.'

Dr. Jose Delgado, Director of Neuropsychiatry, Yale University Medical School
Congressional Record No. 26, Vol. 118, February 24, 1974
(Dr Delgado is described as a MKULTRA experimenter who demonstrated a radio-controlled bull on CNN in 1985)

'Mommy, how can that lady talk with her mouth closed?'

More at 'The State of Unclassified and Commercial Technology Capable of Some Electronic Mind Control Effects'
By Eleanor White, P.Eng.
June 28, 2001

http://www.raven1.net/uncom.htm

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 13:19:00 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Brave New World: RF mind control!
Message:
VI. ULTRASOUND AND VOICE-FM

Ultrasound is vibration of the air, a liquid, or a solid, above the
upper limit of human hearing which is roughly 15,000 Hz in adults.
Voice-FM uses a tone at or near that upper limit, and the speaker's
voice VARIES the frequency slightly. Either a 'tinnitus-like sound'
or nothing is heard by the target.

Ultrasound/voice-FM can be transmitted in these ways:

- directly through the air using 'air type transducers'
- directly to the brain using a modulated microwave pulse train
- through the air by piggybacking an ultrasound message on top
of commercial radio or television

The use of commercial radio or television requires that the input signal
at the transmitter be relatively powerful, since radio and TV receivers
are not designed to pass on ultrasound messages. However, the average
radio and TV receiver does not simply stop ultrasound, rather, the ability
to pass ultrasound messages 'rolls off', i.e. degrades, as the frequency
is increased.

Today's radios and TVs can carry enough ultrasound messaging to be 'heard'
by the human brain (though not the ear) to be effective in conveying
hypnosis. This was proven by the U.S. military forces in the Gulf War.

Ultrasound's (and voice-FM's) main advantage in mind control work is that
it can carry VERBAL hypnosis, more potent than simple biorhythm entrain-
ment.

The brain CAN 'hear' and understand this 'inaudible voice', while the ear
cannot. Once you can convey hypnotic suggestion which cannot be
consciously heard, you have eliminated a major barrier to the subject's
acceptance of the words being transmitted.

In previous decades, 'subliminal advertising' using voice and images
at normal frequencies were 'time sliced' into an apparently normal
radio or TV broadcast. This apparently did not work well, and now
voice-FM 'subliminal learning tapes' commercially available have
superseded the time slice method.


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Illustration showing the operation of 'silent sound' with the human
hearing system, using near-ultrasound, FREQUENCY MODULATED voice


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One method for projecting either audible voice or voice-FM over
long distances, virtually undectable if line of sight, is the 'acoustic
heterodyne' or 'HyperSonic Sound' system, patented by American Technologies
Corporation, San Diego CA, http://www.atcsd.com

THE LIDA MACHINE

Associated Press (Exact date not shown on copy but tests took place
1982/83) Loma Linda (Veterans Hospital research unit)
San Bernardino County

A Soviet device that bombards brains with low-frequency
[Eleanor White's note: More likely radio frequency carrier
which is modulated or pulsed at brain-entrainment rates]
radio waves may be a replacement for tranquilizers and their
unwanted side effects, says a researcher, but it's use on
humans poses ethical and political questions.

The machine, known as the LIDA, is on loan to the Jerry L.
Pettis Memorial Veterans Hospital through a medical exchange
program between the Soviet Union and the United States.

Hospital researchers have found in changes behaviour in
animals.

'It looks as though instead of taking a valium when you want
to relax yourself it would be possible to achieve a similar
result, probably in a safer way, by the use of a radio field
that will relax you' said Dr. Ross Adey, chief of research
at the hospital.

[Missing one line on the photocopy] ... manual shows it
being used on a human in a clinical setting, Adey said.
The manual says it is a 'distant pulse treating apparatus'
for psychological problems, including sleeplessness, hyper-
tension and neurotic disturbances.

The device has not been approved for use with humans in this
country, although the Russians have done so since at least
1960, Adey Said.

Low frequency radio waves simulate the brain's own electromagnetic
current and produce a trance-like state.

Adey said he put a cat in a box and turned on the LIDA.

'Within a matter of two or three minutes it is sitting there
very quietly ... it stays almost as though it were transfixed'
he said.

Tho hospital's experiment with the machine has been underway
for three months and should be completed within a year,
Adey said.

Eleanor White's comments (Dr. Byrd's statement follows):

1. Heavy 'fatigue attacks' are a very common experience among
involuntary neuro-electromagnetic experimentees. The LIDA device
could, right out of the box, be used as a fatigue attack weapon,
FROM HIDING, thru non- or semi-conductive walls.

2. If the LIDA machine is tuned for tranquilizing effect, then
it might also be tuned for 'force awake' and other effects too. This
device is a psychotronic weapon, AS IS. A TV documentary stated
the Russian medical establishment considers this 1950s device
obsolete. (Wonder what has taken it's place?)

Below is a statement from Dr. Eldon Byrd, U.S. psychotronic
researcher who funded Dr. Adey's work with the LIDA machine:

'The LIDA machine was made in the 1950's by the Soviets. The CIA
purchased one through a Canadian front for Dr. Ross Adey, but
didn't give him any funds to evaluate it.

'I provided those funds from my project in 1981, and he determined
that the LIDA would put rabbits into a stupor at a distance and
make cats go into REM.

'The Soviets included a picture with the device that showed an
entire auditorium full of people asleep with the LIDA on the
podium. The LIDA put out an electric field, a magnetic field,
light, heat, and sound (of course light and heat are
electromagnetic waves, but at a much higher frequency than the low
frequencies of the electric and magnetic fields mentioned above).

'The purported purpose of the LIDA was for medical treatments;
however, the North Koreans used it as a brain washing device
during the Korean War. The big question is: what did they do
with the technology? It could have been improved and/or made
smaller. It is unlikely that they abandoned something that
worked.

'Direct communication with Ross Adey: While he was testing the
LIDA 4, an electrician was walking by and asked him where he got
the 'North Korean brain washing machine'. Ross told him that is
was a Russian medical device.

'The guy said he had been brain-washed by a device like that when
he was in a POW camp. They placed the vertical plates alongside
his head and read questions and answers to him. He said he felt
like he was in a dream. Later when the Red Cross came and asked
questions, he responded with what had been read to him while under
the influence of the device. He said he seemed to have no control
over the answers.

'The LIDA is PATENTED IN THE US. Why? They are not sold in the
US--the only one I know that exists is the one that was at Loma
Linda Medical Center where Adey used to work. Eldon'

.................................................................

Involuntary neuro-experimentation activist Cheryl Welsh, Davis CA,
sent in this clipping from an article by Dr. Ross Adey but without
complete bibliographic references:

'Soviet investigators have also developed a therapeutic device
utilizing low frequency square wave modulation of a radiofrequency
field. This instrument known as the Lida was developed by L.
Rabichev and his colleagues in Soviet Armenia, and is designed for
'the treatment of neuropsychic and somatic disorders, such as
neuroses, psychoses, insomnia, hypertension, stammering, bronchia
asthma, and asthenic and reactive disturbances'.

It is covered by U.S. Patent # 3,773,049. In addition to the
pulsed RF field, the device also delivers pulsed light, pulsed
sound, and pulsed heat. Each stimulus train can be independently
adjusted in intensity and frequency.

The radiofrequency field has a nominal carrier frequency of 40 MHz
and a maximum output of approximately 40 Watts. The E- field is
applied to the patient on the sides of the neck through two disc
electrodes approximately 10 cm in diameter. The electrodes are
located at a distance of 2-4 cm from the skin.

[Eleanor White's comment: The fact that Dr. Ross Adey mentioned
an 'audience' being put to sleep by the LIDA suggests that the
'E-field' electrodes may not play an essential role. The radio
signal appears to be the primary cause of the sleep/trance effect.]

Optimal repetition frequencies are said to lie in the range from 40
to 80 pulses per minute. Pulse duration is typically 0.2 sec. In
an 8 year trial period, the instrument was tested on 740 patients,
including adults and children. Postivive therapeutic effects were
claimed in more...'

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APPENDIX PM2 - FREY'S PAPER

Human Auditory System Response To Modulated Electromagnetic Energy

ALLAN H. FREY

General Electric Advanced Electronics Center Cornell University Ithaca, New York

TRANSCRIPTION, Courtesy of MindNet Archives, Mike Coyle
posted at http://www.ritualabuse.net/MCF/

Frey, Allan H., Human Auditory system response to modulated
electromagnetic energy. J. Appl. Physiol. 17(4): 689-692. 1962.

(*) Asterisks indicate unreadable characters in the original copy.

NOTE: In 1962, frequencies were expressed as kiloCYCLES,
megaCYCLES, etc., with abbreviations being kc, mc

--The intent of this paper is to bring a new phenomena to the
attention of physiologists. Using extremely low average power
densities of electromagnetic energy, the perception of sounds was
induced in normal and deaf humans. The effect was induced several
hundred feet from the antenna the instant the transmitter was turned
on, and is a function of carrier frequency and modulation. Attempts
were made to match the sounds induced by electromagnetic energy and
acoustic energy.

The closest match occurred when the acoustic amplifier was driven by
the rf transmitter's modulator. Peak power density is a critical
factor and, with acoustic noise of approximately 80 db, a peak power
density of approximately 275 mw / rf is needed to induce the
perception at carrier frequencies 125 mc and 1,310 mc. The average
power density can be at rf as low as 400 _u_w/cm2. The evidence for
the various positive sites of the electromagnetic energy sensor are
discussed and locations peripheral to the cochlea are ruled out.

Received for publication 29 September 1961.

A significant amount of research has been conducted with the effects
of radio-frequency (rf) energy on organisms (electro- magnetic energy
between 1 kc and ** Gc). Typically, this work has been concerned with
determining damage resulting from body temperature increase. The
average power densities used have been on the order of 0.1-t w/cm2
used over many minutes to several hours.

In contrast, using average power densities measured in microwatts per
square centimeter, we have found that ****r effects which are
transient, can be induced with rf energy. Further, these effects
occur the instant the transmitter is turned on. With appropriate
modulation, the perception of different sounds can be induced in
physically deaf, as well as normal, in human subjects at a distance
of inches up to thousands of feet from the transmitter. With
somewhat different transmission parameters, you can induce the
perception of severe buffeting of the head, without such apparent
vestibular symptoms as dizziness or nausea. Changing transmitter
parameters down, one can induce a 'pins-and-needles' sensation.

Experimental work with these phenomena may yield information on
auditory system functioning and, more generally, in the nervous
system function. For example, this energy could possibly be used as
a tool to explore nervous system coding, possibly using Neider and
Neff's procedures (1), and for stimulating the nervous system without
the damage caused by electrodes.

Dr. David Erwin and
Major Robert Downs represented the Air Force and Howard Bassen
and Dr. John D'Andrea described the Army and Navy programs,
respectively. Dr. Frank Barnes of the University of Colorado
in Boulder presented a poster paper on his and Dr. Howard
Wachtel's research on the effects of pulsed microwaves.

Chuck de Caro, a former correspondent for the Cable News Network,
considers the possibility that the U.S. is falling behind the
U.S.S.R. in microwave weapons in 'The Zap Gap', to be published
in the March issue of 'The Atlantic' (see also MWN November-
December 1986).

......................................................................
Microwave News, January-February 1996

RF WEAPONS - Disabling People and Electronics

The military continues to explore development of RF weapons
for the conflicts of the future. For instance, the 'First
Directed Energy Warfare (DEW) Conference', held last year
at the Mitre Corp. in McLean VA, featured Dr. David Erwin
of the Armstrong Lab at Brooks AFB, San Antonio, TX, on
'Directed Energy Warfare RF Effects', and D.r Jose Pina of
the CIA on 'Ground Combat Applications of RF'. Other topics
included 'Personnel Vulnerability' and Directed Energy
Warfare Biological Effects'.

The June meeting was organized by the Association of Old
Crows, whose members are specialists in electronic warfare.
Conference participants had to have security clearances of
'Secret' or higher, as has been the case at similar meetings
in the past (See MWN, J-F 87 and N-D 93).

Public discussions of RF/MW weapons have focussed on dis-
rupting technology. But a recent Article in the Airpower
Journal revealed 'for the first time that the military is
developing high-powered microwave weapons for use against
human beings', reports Peter Cassidy in the January 1996
'Progressive' (see p. 14).

RF/MW and EMF-based weapons are also being studied for
civilian law enforcement. Oak Ridge National Laboratory
(ORNL) in Oak Ridge TN will soon complete a literature
review for the National Insitute of Justice on the
feasibility of 'thermal guns' which could heat the body to
105 to 107 degrees F and incapacitate the target; 'seizure
guns' which would use EM energy to induce epileptic-like
seizures; and 'magnetophosphene guns' which would cause
the target to 'see stars'.

The institute's Ray Downs in Washington cautioned that the
report may not be made public. ORNL's Dr. Clay Easterly
has said that some effects not associated with heating
could be useful in developing nonlethal weapons.
(See MWN, N-D 93.)

......................................................................
Microwave News, September-October 1996, page 19

Stop That Car or We'll Zap You

They're the sexiest gadgets in this year's action movies:
EMP weapons, which use electromagnetic pulses to zap
electronics. They have starring roles in Goldeneye, the
latest James Bond movie, as well as in Broken Arrow, Escape
From LA, and Eraser. And soon they may be coming to a
police car near you.

Law Enforcement News (September 30) reports that the U.S.
Army and the National Institute of Justice are running a
$500,000 field test to see if EMP guns can force a car to
stop by disabling its electrical systems. The plan is to
use EMP to do away with high speed chases (another Hollywood
staple). This is another example of the growing interest in
using nonlethal weapons developed by the military.

...

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APPENDIX US1 - SILENT SOUND

Eleanor White's comments:

This article shows clearly the military's intent to use
every possible thought-influencing technology. This technology
is largely classified but there are leaks, like this article.
We involuntary test subjects can tell you from first hand
experience that far more invasive devices now exist.

This article represents one of the two parallel 'tracks' on
which thought-influencing technology is being used and
further developed:

- Radio frequency signals, based on the WW II
phenomenon called 'radar hearing'

- Ultrasound signals, which can be transmitted
through the air or piggybacked on to radio/TV
signals

MIND CONTROL WITH SILENT SOUNDS

The mind-altering mechanism is based on a subliminal carrier
technology: the Silent Sound Spread Spectrum (SSSS), sometimes
called 'S-quad' or 'Squad'. It was developed by Dr Oliver Lowery of
Norcross, Georgia, and is described in US Patent #5,159,703,
'Silent Subliminal Presentation System', dated October 27, 1992.
The abstract for the patent reads:

'A silent communications system in which nonaural carriers, in the
very low or very high audio-frequency range or in the adjacent
ultrasonic frequency spectrum are amplitude- or frequency-modulated
with the desired intelligence and propagated acoustically or
vibrationally, for inducement into the brain, typically through the
use of loudspeakers, earphones, or piezoelectric transducers. The
modulated carriers may be transmitted directly in real time or may
be conveniently recorded and stored on mechanical, magnetic, or
optical media for delayed or repeated transmission to the
listener.'

According to literature by Silent Sounds, Inc., it is now possible,
using supercomputers, to analyse human emotional EEG patterns and
replicate them, then store these 'emotion signature clusters' on
another computer and, at will, 'silently induce and change the
emotional state in a human being'.

Silent Sounds, Inc. states that it is interested only in positive
emotions, but the military is not so limited. That this is a US
Department of Defense project is obvious.

Edward Tilton, President of Silent Sounds, Inc., says this about
S-quad in a letter dated December 13, 1996:

'All schematics, however, have been classified by the US Government
and we are not allowed to reveal the exact details... ... we make
tapes and CDs for the German Government, even the former Soviet
Union countries! All with the permission of the US State
Department, of course... The system was used throughout Operation
Desert Storm (Iraq) quite successfully.'

The graphic illustration, 'Induced Alpha to Theta Biofeedback
Cluster Movement', which accompanies the literature, is labelled
#AB 116-394-95 UNCLASSIFIED' and is an output from 'the world's
most versatile and most sensitive electroencephalograph (EEG)
machine'. It has a gain capability of 200,000, as compared to other
EEG machines in use which have gain capability of approximately
50,000. It is software-driven by the 'fastest of computers' using a
noisenulling technology similar to that used by nuclear submarines
for detecting small objects underwater at extreme range.[6]

The purpose of all this high technology is to plot and display a
moving cluster of periodic brainwave signals. The illustration
shows an EEG display from a single individual, taken of left and
right hemispheres simultaneously. Ile readout from the two sides
of the brain appear to be quite different, but in fact are the same
(discounting normal leftright brain variations).

CLONING THE EMOTIONS

By using these computer-enhanced EEGs, scientists can identify and
isolate the brain's low-amplitude 'emotion signature clusters',
synthesise them and store them on another computer. In other words,
by studying the subtle characteristic brainwave patterns that occur
when a subject experiences a particular emotion, scientists have
been able to identify the concomitant brainwave pattern and can now
duplicate it. 'These clusters are then placed on the Silent
Sound[TM] carrier frequencies and will silently trigger the
occurrence of the same basic emotion in another human being!'

Up to Contents

SYSTEM DELIVERY AND APPLICATIONS

There is a lot more involved here than a simple subliminal sound
system. There are numerous patented technologies which can be
piggybacked individually or collectively onto a carrier frequency
to elicit all kinds of effects.

There appear to be two methods of delivery with the system. One is
direct microwave induction into the brain of the subject, limited
to short-range operations. The other, as described above, utilises
ordinary radio and television carrier frequencies.

Far from necessarily being used as a weapon against a person, the
system does have limitless positive applications. However, the fact
that the sounds are subliminal makes them virtually undetectable
and possibly dangerous to the general public.

In more conventional use, the Silent Sounds Subliminal System might
utilise voice commands, e.g., as an adjunct to security systems.
Beneath the musical broadcast that you hear in stores and shopping
malls may be a hidden message which exhorts against shoplifting.
And while voice commands alone are powerful, when the subliminal
presentation system carries cloned emotional signatures, the result
is overwhelming.

Free-market uses for this technology are the common self-help
tapes; positive affirmation, relaxation and meditation tapes; as
well as methods to increase learning capabilities.

In a medical context, these systems can be used to great advantage
to treat psychiatric and psychosomatic problems. As a system for
remediating the profoundly deaf, it is unequalled. (Promises,
promises. This is the most common positive use touted for this
technology over the past 30 years. But the deaf are still deaf, and
the military now has a weapon to use on unsuspecting people with
perfectly normal hearing.)

In an article entitled 'Non-Lethal Weapons May Violate
Treaties',[13] the author notes that the Certain Conventional
Weapons Convention[14] covers many of the non-conventional
weapons—'those that utilize infrasound or electromagnetic energy
(including lasers, microwave or radiofrequency radiation, or
visible light pulsed at brainwave frequency) for their effects'.

Harlan Girard, Managing Director of the International Committee
Against Offensive Microwave Weapons, told me he believes the
strategy behind the government's recent push for less-than-lethal
weapons is a subterfuge. The ones that are now getting all the
publicity are put up for scrutiny to get the public's approval. The
electromagnetic mind-altering technologies are not mentioned, but
would be brought in later under the umbrella of less-than- lethal
weapons.

These weapons were recently transferred from the Department of
Defense over to the Department of Justice. Why? Because there are
several international treaties that specifically limit or exclude
weapons of this nature from being used in international warfare.

In other words, weapons that are barred from use against our
country's worst enemies (notwithstanding the fact that the US did
use this weapon against Iraqi troops!) can now be used against our
own citizens by the local police departments against such groups as
peaceful protestors of US nuclear policies.

TOWARDS GLOBAL MIND CONTROL

The secrecy involved in the development of the electromagnetic
mind-altering technology reflects the tremendous power that is
inherent in it. To put it bluntly, whoever controls this technology
can control the minds of men-all men.

There is evidence that the US Government has plans to extend the
range of this technology to envelop all peoples, all countries.
This can be accomplished, is being accomplished, by utilising the
nearly completed HAARP project[15,16] for overseas areas and the
GWEN network now in place in the US. The US Government denies all
this.

Dr Michael Persinger is a Professor of Psychology and Neuroscience
at Laurentian University, Ontario, Canada. You have met him before
in the pages of Resonance where we reported on his findings that
strong electromagnetic fields can affect a person's brain.

'Temporal lobe stimulation,' he said, 'can evoke the feeling of a
presence, disorientation, and perceptual irregularities. It can
activate images stored in the subject's memory, including
nightmares and monsters that are normally suppressed.'[17]

Dr Persinger wrote an article a few years ago, titled 'On the
Possibility of Directly Accessing Every Human Brain by
Electromagnetic Induction of Fundamental Algorithms'.[18] The
abstract reads:

'Contemporary neuroscience suggests the existence of fundamental
algorithms by which all sensory transduction is translated into an
intrinsic, brain-specific code. Direct stimulation of these codes
within the human temporal or limbic cortices by applied
electromagnetic patterns may require energy levels which are within
the range of both geomagnetic activity and contemporary
communication networks. A process which is coupled to the narrow
band of brain temperature could allow all normal human brains to
be. affected by a subharmonic whose frequency range at about 10 Hz
would only vary by 0. 1 Hz.'

He concludes the article with this:

'Within the last two decades a potential has emerged which was
improbable, but which is now marginally feasible. This potential is
the technical capability to influence directly the major portion of
the approximately six billion brains of the human species, without
mediation through classical sensory modalities, by generating
neural information within a physical medium within which all
members of the species are immersed.

'The historical emergence of such possibilities, which have ranged
from gunpowder to atomic fission, have resulted in major changes in
the social evolution that occurred inordinately quickly after the
implementation. Reduction of the risk of the inappropriate
application of these technologies requires the continued and open
discussion of their realistic feasibility and implications within
the scientific and public domain.'

It doesn't get any plainer than that. And we do not have open
discussion because the US Government has totally denied the
existence of this technology.

he initial research into mind control in the USA was conducted udner the
auspices of the CIA. The flagrant abuse of human rights in experimenting
on unsuspecting persons was based on the supposition that the veracity of
experiments would be compromised if a subject knew that he was participating
in an experiment. In the case of mind-control technology, tehis supposition
might very well be true. But that does not justify its use -- or so said
the Nuremburg Code, the tenets of which were used as a legal basis to pro-
secute Nazi scientists for war crimes. However the US seems to have
excused its own military and scientific community from adhering to that
Code. [11]

MANIPULATING MIND AND BODY BY SATELLITE

The next logical step in mind control would be to incorporate this tech-
nology into satellite communications. Since other countries are known
to have similar capabilities, there could occur a sitution in which
electronic mind control warfare is waged against a civilian population,
receiving conflicting mental manipulation from both sides. What would be
the mental state of individuals so targetted? Would it cause a rise in
mental aberrations and schizophrenia? And what are the limits of mind
manipulations? Can people be forced to commit suicide? Can physical
ailments or psychosomatic illnesses be induced?

A March 1990 report from Bosnia-Herzegovina in the former Yugoslavia sug-
gests the latter may have already happened. The report concerns 2,990
ethnic Albanians who were admitted to hospital with complaints of lung and
skin problems for which doctors could find no physical cause. [12]

It is not a far step from manipulating a person's emotional state to influ-
encing bodily functions. Indeed, much of the literature on documenting
microwave effects on biological systems deals with precisely this phenom-
enon. In fact, studies of the physical effects of microwave exposure
(including radio frequencies) generally preceeded studies of mental effects.

A meeting sponsored by Defense & Foreign Affairs and the International
Strategic Studies Association was held in Washington DC in 1983. High-level
officials from many countries met for this conference. They discussed
psychological strategies related to government and policymaking. A summary
of the agenda reads: 'The group will be discussing the essence of future
policymaking, for it msut be increasingly clear to all that the most effec-
tive tool of government and strategy is the mind... If it's any consolation
to the weapons-oriented among defense policymakers, the new technologies of
communications -- satellites, television, radio, and mind-control
beams -- are 'systems' which are more tangible than the more
philosophically based psychological strategies and operations.

[Eleanor White's comment: Anyone know where to get a copy?]

'But we should make no mistake; it will be the 'psychologically based'
systems which determine the world's fate in coming years: the condition of
the minds of populations and leaders. And we should not ignore the fact
that the USSR [this was in 1983] is working on electronic systems to
'beam' messages directly into the brain. What good, then, are conventional
systems if these types of weapons are not countered? And, on a more basic
level, what good is a weapon system if public opinion or political con-
straints prohibit its deployment?' [13]

It is obvious that they found the answer to that last question. If the
public does not know about a weapon system, it cannot prohibit its deploy-
ment. This is the situtation that applies to mind-control technology.

http://www.altered-states.co.nz/cgi-bin/reload.cgi?^/sub/silent.htm

SILENT SUBLIMINALS

Only your mind can hear. Your ears hear nothing but your mind
hears and accepts the powerful suggestions.

You can safely play these tapes anywhere - in a car, while
watching TV or listening to your favorite music, while working
or even as silent sleep programming.

Warning: Everyone within listening range of the tape will be
programmed by the suggestions. To assure yourself that strong
suggestions are recorded on the tape, take it to any Radio
Shack store, play it on their stereo and read the output with
a Radio Shack Sound Level Meter (Item 33-2050)

How To Use The Tapes: Increase the volume until it is just
below any tape noise. If your stereo deck has treble and bass
controls, you can boost the subliminal output by increasing
the treble and decreasing the bass. The player then emits a
strong but inaudible frequency - modulated 60 - 90 decibel
signal that is received and demodulated by the human ear.

Technical Information The Suggestions are delivered on a
carrier frequency of 14,800 cps, via a low-distortion sinewave
signal. This frequency is slightly above the audible hearing
range but the frequency-modulated (FM) signal is still
strongly impinging upon the diaphragm of the ear. The listener
can expect his subconscious mind to accept the suggestions
with repeated listening.

[EW: Note the similarity to Lowery patent, US 5,159,703]

How To Use The Tapes: Increase the volume until it is just
below any tape noise. If your stereo deck has treble and bass
controls, you can boost the subliminal output by increasing
the treble and decreasing the bass. The player then emits a
STRONG BUT INAUDIBLE frequency-modulated 60 to 90 decibel
signal that is received and demodulated by the human ear.

The Silent Subliminals is a new brain / mind technology
developed by an aerospace engineer. This new technique has
been licensed to Valley of the Sun Audio /

Video for this incredible new tape series. Patent pending.
Note: Because the frequency is beyond normal recording range,
the tape cannot be duplicated:

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 17:34:35 (EDT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Re: Brave New World: RF mind control!
Message:
I have doubts about the radio and tape: Commercially available soundsystems are uncapable of reproducing the high frequencies. The tapes could be copied by slowing them down. The copy would have to be played back faster than normal, perhaps on a special machine.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:10:49 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Re: Brave New World: RF mind control!
Message:
Would the translation headsets and the fm radio needed for Amaroo fall into this usage?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 09:13:02 (EDT)
From: 19th Century Revivalism/Conversion
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Just read this/ Same old xxxx
Message:
Conversion
The core of nineteenth-century evangelicalism was the experience of conversion. Conversion was compelled by a set of clear ideas about the innate sinfulness of humans after Adam's fall, the omnipotence of God--his awful power and his mercy--and, finally, the promise of salvation for fallen humankind through Christ's death on the cross as the atonement for human sin. But what students need to understand is that conversion was an experience. It was not simply something that people believed--though belief or faith was essential to it--but something that happened to them, a real, intensely emotional event they went through and experienced as a profound psychological transformation left them with a fundamentally altered sense of self, an identity as a new kind of Christian. As they interpreted it, they had undergone spiritual rebirth, the death of an old self and the birth of a new one that fundamentally transformed their sense of their relationship to the world.

Conversion consisted of a sequence of clearly mapped-out steps, each of which was accompanied by a powerful emotion that led the penitent from the terror of eternal damnation through redemption to the promise of heavenly salvation. The process of conversion characteristically began in a state of 'concern' about the state of one's soul and 'inquiry' into what were called the doctrines of salvation propelled by the question 'what can I do to be saved?' This led to a state of acute spiritual 'anxiety,' marked by deep fear over the prospect of eternal damnation, which in turn grew into an unmistakable sense of 'conviction,' the heartfelt realization that one stood justly condemned for one's sins and deserved eternal damnation. Conviction was the terrifying point of recognition that no matter how much one might desire it, there was absolutely nothing one could do to earn salvation. But there was something the penitent could do, indeed, was bound to do. That was to fully repent and surrender unconditionally to God's will to do with as he saw fit and to serve him fully. It was this act of repentance, surrender, and dedication to serving his will that Finney meant when in his most famous sermon he insisted that 'sinners [are] bound to change their own hearts.' This moment of renunciation of sin and the abject surrender to the will to God was the moment of conversion, if it was to come, the moment at which, through the promise of Christ's atonement for human sin, a merciful God would bestow his grace upon the repentant sinner.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 15:05:34 (EDT)
From: Chuck S.
Email: None
To: 19th Century Revivalism/Conversion
Subject: Different lyrics, but the same song...
Message:
The God Schtick: provide the problem, provide the solution, hook the customer emotionally and lock him in. In the secular world it's called maketing.

I had seen through the christian version of this by the time I became aquainted with Premies. But for some reason, didn't suspect the same of M and K, precisely because it wasn't christianity.

There were some things that did make me uncomfortable that I did question directly, but I was told it was definitley not a religion, not a belief system, it was just an experience, try it, you'll like it. No wagon-load of shit to be added for you to haul later, just The Truth. I thought, what is the harm in trying it? And while I did (and still do) enjoy meditation, there were many other aspects of being a Premie that never felt comfortable, like the ever present Maharaji guru-worship religion that faded after the Jonestown deaths, but never completely went away, and in fact, has been making a strong comback in recent years.

Even now, Premies say things like ''I don't know who He really is'', ''No one should have concepts about the Master'', because it is politically incorrect to say ''He's God'', but you only have to look at the writings of M's father, to see what this is all about. The Premies keep saying there are no concepts about the Master, except in the mind (the Doubtmaker). They say this because they don't want to look at the very real concepts they DO have. Those concepts hold them in bondage, and they can't release themselves from that bondage because they won't examine their concepts, because concepts are part of the dreaded 'mind'. The Premies have been implanted with a superstitious fear of their own minds. And the Master can't be understood with the mind, don't ya know. How convenient.

When I first began listening to M., after a life-threating accident which left me very vulnerable, I was not greatly impressed with M. Much of what he said seemed like little common-sense truisms, which I liked, but he seemed to ramble and his discourses were disjointed. He often seemed to be leading up to making some kind of point, but never making it. The loving kindness of the Premie community seduced me, and I began to see M. through their eyes. After the Premie community broke up, I continued with M. out of habit, out of superstious fears I was unaware of that were planted subconciously, out of a vague emotional attachment implanted in me by my good experiences with Premies. Psychologist William James has written about how people who have had powerful emotional experiences with a religion, will often stick with that religion and support it for the rest of their lives, long after they have acctually outgrown it, because of the initial emotional experience.

I've been out of the cult for eight months now. Hearing M's discourses now, I can only marvel that I did not see through them much sooner. To be honest, for years I found much of what he said annoying and useless, but there was a lingering emotional attachment, formed in my youth with my experiences with the premies.

The truth is, the 'trueisms' that Maharaji uses so often, that I had liked so well, are often said by many other people, without all the Maharaji guru-worship religion mixed up with it.

Premies say things like ''The trick is to be still. To feel alive and just be. Thoughts like clouds. I tell you, it's very nice.'' Sure, it's nice. It's little things like that, little simple truths that got me hooked in the begining. I like those little truisms, but they are just as true for me now WITHOUT a guru as with. In fact, they are much easier to enjoy without a ''Master'' than with. That is because they don't belong to anyone. No copyrights, it's all as free as the air you breath. A good yoga instructor could show you as much, and send you on your merry way. But watch out for ''The Master''. He's got a dog collar, and plans, for YOU.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:52:24 (EDT)
From: Thank You, Chuck
Email: None
To: Chuck S.
Subject: Re: Different lyrics, but the same song...
Message:
That's kinda what I was thinking when I read it but you really broke it down. I really liked the part about marketing is just creating a problem/need and then providing the solution.

Take care

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:11:51 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: CAC, EV and Scientology: same methods
Message:
Check this !!

EV and Rawat didn't invent this .....

Same methods.
[ Anti-Cult Terrorism via the Internet ]

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 01:47:29 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: CAC, EV and Scientology: same methods
Message:
My god, what is your I.Q.? This is amazining stuff and your analysis even more so. Where were you educated, if I might be so bold to inquire? Not just university, but also as a child.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 06:08:28 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Why care so much if this is stupid?
Message:
Disturbing ?
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:07:42 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Why care so much if this is stupid?
Message:
Why care so much if this is stupid?
_____

I don't understand. I don't think this is stupid, I think it is brilliant. It's difficult for me to comprehend all of it and that is why I especially appreciate your step by step analysis. I'm involved in education which is why I asked about your educational background.
The US is in a sorry state right now, except for the rare teacher and/or school. I find kids with high I.Q.'s are rarely addressed academically with curriculum that meets those needs. I am curious anytime I see intelligence, such as yours, to know how school supported or hindered the child/teen/young adult. That's all.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 05:14:33 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This is a must read
Message:
good link, thanks a lot.
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:28:27 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Duhhhhhhhh
Message:
You should be a Rocket Scientist.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:20:21 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Neither use nor ornament...
Message:
Nothing to say and too much time for saying it. Move on. Get a life.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:34:45 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Neither use nor ornament...
Message:
Get a life? Are you kidding Mr Baldy?
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 04:58:19 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: yea well, you know Cat,
Message:
The rat has a bit of mouldy cheese to distract him for a few torrid months.....ahem

.....he thinks it's 'a life'

the novelty wears off, as he'll discover..... :)

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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 01:10:08 (EDT)
From: Steve M
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Hey Cat - swapya...........
Message:
..........You go over to LG and sing the praises and I'll come back over here.

If the exes stop posting there it'll disappear , or become a guitarists discussion group.

Actually I think they need you pussy ,

Warm and affectionate regards to you and yours

Peace and Mc Donalds
Stuch...I mean St..

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:13:14 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Holy Cow! very intersting, J-M. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 00:59:24 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why would anyone want to leave MJ
Message:
I've been reminiscing again. Dangerous habit unless a person wants to learn from their experience. Anyway - it occurred to me a prime reason why premies are still premies and I am an ex.

Its like this. MJ has a regal disdain for the world - he feels above and beyond it. He feels it is here to serve his purpose etc, etc. Well guess what! So do his devotees. As a devotee they feel above the world - ('In it but not of it' was a favourite chant way back when) and being above the world allows for many very satisfying levels of magical thinking. It is this link with being the devotee of the 'above the world person' that leads them to be able to feel and perceive themselves to also be above the world. Ahhhh! I remember it well!!!!

This means that while a person is grovelling to MJ or from thier point of view - serving MJ - well while they are doing this they feel elevated above the mundane, above the crass of this world. And that, my dear colleagues and others, is a very powerful experience. It is akin to the feeling one gets when one is elevated by music, art, live performace, love, intimacy, some drugs. Consequently offering a person anything as simple as reality, certainty, clarity is not so straight forward.

This is I think why many questions go unanswered around here by premies. We are of the world, our ideas are of the world - and they (premies)are not of the world or at least believe themselves to be not of this world.

There is a great story by Jack Vance called 'Eyes of the Overworld' - where in one part of the story people can put scales over their eyes that allow them to see and experience the world as though it were endlessly wealthy and everyone beautiful and everything gorgeous. But to people without the scales over their eyes they looked like slovenly, grotty, overweigth, unhealthy people who live in broken down shacks surrounded by filth and detritus. There is something similar with premies - why would they want to give up the scales in front of their eyes in order to see a fairly humdrum world (as they remember it). I don't think this is a very assailable for the true believers - who after all can do whatever they like as they are not of this world - karma is not for the likes of thos who follow the satguru.

Anyway my two bits - or two bobs worth in Aussie-land.

Cheer for now

Peter

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:43:47 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Well Pete it's like this...
Message:
I concur that you and your friends down at the Rat's Ranch DID think like that. It was a big problem. You looked and sounded ridiculous. On building sites I distinctly remember one of the other foremen doing a real Judas on you lot.(Who them? Oh I think he picked them up at the CES yesterday morning.! Weird? Yeah! Probably Hare Krishna's!) You behaved like utter madmen.

You see Pete what you are saying here, it just isn't true. I live here , on planet earth(like you). I own things(Like you). I have family(Like you). I am enjoying a great career(Like you). But unlike you I still practice K, and I seek the guidance of someone who has never disappointed me.

The trick is Pete to be still. To feel alive and just be. Thoughts like clouds. I tell you , it's very nice.

Life is an evolutionary journey.After a while you get past what you THINK is going on. Eventually you KNOW.....

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:45:41 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Well Pete it's like this...
Message:
Hi CW,

Yeah........well! 'My idea is bigger than yours so there!!!' Nya nya nya nya nya. I am not being juvenile!

There are three slightly connected points I would like to make. First is that it was amazing that any building forman let us anywhere near a building site. I remember working under arc lights at night on building sites for Christs sake. Why - because our timelines were fucked. I remember a tennis court being quoted on and built in Toowoomba - small problem - though they signed the contract they forgot about the 4 metre perimeter fence. Slaving away and even then there was no profit for the boss. Tough lila that one especially if one gets pneumonia as well. I remember a painting quote for painting a church steeple. The idea was that we would save the scafolding costs by climbing through a tiny window near the top of the steeple and using ropes lower ourselves (rappel) down using a spray gun to point it. Premies were protected by the boss and were expendable as well. Wonderful madness.

Anyway the other points were more contentious - 'someone who has never disappointed me'. I understand and appreciate what you are saying. However I don't get that you appreaciate that he has disappointed me and others. Now I reckon that in principle you don't give a rats arse and in a sense why should you. Quite frankly I can't give you a decent answer to that simple question ('why should you give a rats arse?') that doesn't involve values that are different between us. Anyway getting into my shoes and some of the other woofy shoes around here, you would find yourself unable to continue to follow MJ. So I guess you are saying that so far it works for you. However I think you are unable and perhaps no longer even try to make and argument that MJ is good for everyone.

Other point is to do with gnosticism - being a knower. The problem with being a knower is that learning tends to cease. Because double loop questioning ceases as well. Double loop questioning is when you ask the question 'why do I know what I know?'. As long as the answer is left open and not closed down by the answer 'I know what I know because it is the right thing to know'. Anyway sometimes I reckon that knowing is more caught up in a feeling of OK'ness or self-satisfaction rather than really knowing in the technical sense.

Cheers for now

Peter

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:41:26 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Re: Well Pete it's like this...
Message:
Like I said the painters were mad.As for Toowoomba - I agree. So why didn't you walk then. Others did? All of the things you describe were totally crazy.So whose bright ideas were they? Not mine. Not yours. I'd say the Rat approved them all. Easy to see why the request was made to shut it down. I think a few smarter guys got out after Kansas City.
I dont think it's necessary for you to approve or follow M. Your choice.But I dont want to be ridiculed for my choice and I believe that is what draws down the wrath of less patient types , spawning CAC and no doubt other equally interesting sites. There is a limit to what the average punter will take.My argument would be that K is a wonderful experience. Period. Any conclusions that can be drawn beyond that are purely individual and subjective. That is the clarification Pete , and it bears some thought on your part.

Finally Pete ,we all become more experienced as we grow older. Some of us are capable of deriving wisdom from the rites of passage. Knowing to me is intertwined. It is like playing football in your youth. Intellectually you can understand what is happening now. But the subjective experience of playing is so much more exhilirating. So it is with practising K 20 plus years down the track. Cheers

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:56:41 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: Well Pete it's like this...
Message:
Yeah the Rat and the others around at the time. There was quite a heirarchy that wasn't working that needed ongoing support.

Jeez - Kansas City - I guess we both mean Boston - that takes me back. Staying at that Hyatt Hotel where not long after (5 years or so)the internal crossing bridge collapsed and people got injured and killed. My highlight from that time was watching Close Encounters of the Third Kind (directors cut) on the inhouse movie. Lowlight was trying to live on $5 dollars per day food. Also had a problem - went wandering in Boston in a bookshop and before I knew it got into an XXXXrated section. For an ashram celibate that is hard work - come to see the lord and get horny - what a twisted story I created.

Why didn't I leave - I was on the inside of a really warped way of seeing the world. Those that left the scene were seen as fallen foot soldiers defeated by the mind. It was quite an act of cognitive dissonance. But by then I had gotten quite good at it. My ability to resist was crushed by the anhilation of the Canberra ashram - crushed because we railed against the wastage of money and the bloated spongers. Anyway by the time I got to Brisbane I had gotten fairly crushed - and sickness of sicknsss - I thought being that way was good for me.

Cheers

Peter

ps One day I will recall but it still hasn't happened yet.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 08:50:37 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Re: Well Pete it's like this...
Message:
Yeah you will. And then you'll piss yourself laughing.
PS;It was Kansas and it was freezing.
It was just a trip. K was my goal. And when I got to know M , I liked him. Nothing like the bill you guys give him.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 18:35:10 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: Well Pete it's like this...
Message:
How the hell did you get to know him?

Yeah of course he's likeable - thats part of the dilemma. Charismatic - easily likable, lovable and followable people can have it all over others. Can. Anyway I recently discovered a colleague who is scared shitless of me - I challenge him too much, so he says. I don't much like his view of me but I can see that it is his view and how he gets there.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 16:53:25 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: quote Dick Sutphen
Message:
the master hypnotist:
'No one who has ever been brainwashed is aware of it'.
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:22:19 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: quote Richard Prior
Message:
Double Jeopardy
And some people are so stupid they never know when they've been had?
The simple fact is that I have no need to prove myself to anyone. You and your buddies expect and demand that right - Judge , Jury and Executioners. Damned if we do - damned if we dont.
You dont think you may be brainwashed? Jargon and the company postion roll easily of your lips.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 09:08:46 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: quote Richard Prior
Message:
Then why bother with us?
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 14:15:00 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: That's typical, Cat...
Message:
Blame the followers of Maharaji for their behavior and beliefs instead of pointing the finger right at the ONE who started the whole con-game to begin with.

When someone was not humble enough, had their own thoughts, ideas, AND expressed them, they were labeled as having ''spiritual egos.''

When someone was humble enough, they were mindless working fools, slaving for the Maha, doing his bidding. It's not about whether or not you have a career, family, etc., it's about whether or not you are in a cult, and you are.

You said:
Life is an evolutionary journey.After a while you get past what you THINK is going on. Eventually you KNOW.....

That is part of the cult-think, the brainwash, programming that Maharaji wants you to believe. The catch phrase has always been ''We don't believe....WE KNOW.''

I won't ask you any questions because I don't know who you are, but your post was quite irritating, as usual...

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 10:19:49 (EDT)
From: Cynthia..the POINT is
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: to Irritate YOU so that...
Message:
CW and those like him wont have to face their OWN Irritation (as well as Sadness, Disgust etc) about Being Misled by Captain Rawat for SO Long... The Best Defense is a Good ( or in this case not good) offense.
CW and those like him, faced with overwhelming factual evidence, show a Complete inability to admit to themselves that they've been duped. Thus Their Convoluted logic and their need to Pontificate and Annoy. Best not to even listen to their Rants (after you've discovered how Pointless and Pathetic they are).
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 23:42:57 (EDT)
From: Is that you NIGEL?
Email: None
To: Cynthia..the POINT is
Subject: YOU irrtate so that..you get scratched.
Message:
Fuck off
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Date: Wed, Sep 05, 2001 at 06:04:21 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Is that you NIGEL?
Subject: No.
Message:
This is my first and only post on this thread. Who are you?
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:37:29 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Fantasyland
Message:
It was more of a general comment about life and maturity but you are so brainwashed in the ways of this site that it is all a little beyond you huh?

Try looking outside of your narrow little interpretation of life to include intelligent life existing elsewhere other than here where fundamentally there is scant evidence of any such a possibility.

Pete and his City scrape buddies were in a word deluded - major big time. There was only one outcome possible for Pete. Exit stage left. Because his whole trip was based on a fantasy that was bound to fall down like a pack of cards. Dont lecture me Dickhead.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 20:00:17 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: Fantasyland
Message:
Hi again CW,

I did have a few good years in the Sydney ashrams. At some point I got ill from paint fumes and went on compo for a few weeks and then never went back. I began delivering mail parcels, selling garbage bags door-to-door - all to cover my living costs and then did heaps of meditation, swimming and getting really fit. It was a good time. I wasn't caught up in anything much apart form OD'ing on meditation which was pretty good at the time. MJ had special ashram meetings - he certainly did lead us up the garden path a fair bit with that one. He questioned our devotion if we wanted to be anywhere else but in the ashram etc etc etc. Anyway letting you know I struggled on a few more years post Cityscape and they got better before I left. We were rather uncermoniously dumped in the end. That was an interesting time - learning how to manage money again.

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 00:33:37 (EDT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Sneeringville
Message:
Hi Pete,

I was just wondering where this Top Cat character was watching all these episodes from ? Which dustbin in which alley ?

He now claims to be the 'Rock' of steadfast devotion but I get the impression that he was scared shitless of making a commitment in those days. Maha made it clear that if a person wanted to really be where the action was devotionally then the ashram was the place to be. I remember married premies with children who were filled with regret that they couldn't be in the ashcan where the real action was.

I don't address questions to Cat snivel because he seldom answers.

A lot of the diehard old timers I know weren't 100% surrendered in the old days. Those premies who post on the forums often say that they never believed half of what Maha was saying about guru being greater than god, or that they should surrender their lives etc. They make out now that they were the sussed ones who stood far back in the bleechers at Holi and laughed at all us idiots , singing and dancing in the coloured rain.

Cheers
Steve

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 11:35:49 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: So true, Steve
Message:
My encounters this weekened with two old premie friends proves that in spades. Both were marginal outsiders. Both now chastise me, the former ashram premie, for 'putting Maharaji up on a pedestal'. Both brag about the fact that they've 'never given a dime'. Both are living really broken lives, materially-wise. Both are incapable of even the most basic rational discussion about Maharaji. Both sound like PT.
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 03:48:29 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Re: Sneeringville
Message:
Again you are presuming that you know the Cat , have identified his 'type'. You are falling for your own brand of self rightuous cult think . (You were so much better huh?) Ask Pete. Did anyone involved in those days(especially with Cityscape )NOT live in an ashram??
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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 02:00:28 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: Re: Sneeringville
Message:
Yeah it is perculiar.

I don't quite know how to deal with it. Because I don't want to be caught in the dilemma of saying 'You just weren't devoted, so there!' - which is a bit like saying to a Jim Jones survivor - 'You didn't take the cool-aid, so there!'.

So good luck to them if that was the case. It certainly wasn't with me. I swallowed a big pile of crap and assisted others to do it too. We all smiled nicely as we shovelled it into ourselves, each other and any other person silly enough to listen. And apparently not everyone did listen. Those undevoted one....

Cheers

Peter

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 05:27:09 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: A question, Cat
Message:
Not that you're going to answer me. You never do. But on the off chance that you do, what would the earth, family, career and other things mean to you without Knowledge? Would it be enough?
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 06:36:17 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: A question, Cat
Message:
To me K is the bonus. I certainly dont under-rate any of the others.K is the icing on the cake.I dont know what the answer to your hypothetical might be Jerry. I think life can be relly interesting. And it can throw curved balls at you . Sure you can suffer immensely.
But K gives me a link.If you want to know what with... well you can always sit there with no agenda and find out PJ.
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 17:07:46 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: then,Another question, Cat
Message:
how do you account for all of us ex's who stopped paracticing knowledge--by which i eman stopped meditating, stopped going to see MJ, stopped watching videos and brasdcasts, stopped buying the printed and taped materials, stopped pranaming, stopped flagellating ourselves to be appreciative or grateful or trying to humble ourselves, stopped givng money--how do you account for our having a perfectly okay time with life?
is it even possible for you to hold that idea? do you automatically find it impossible to believe? how do you explain us Cat?

to see if it's really true, you would have to dare to put it all down and live your life without those security blankets for awhile and see if what we say is true. would you dare? would you experiment? can you accept the propsed experiment in order to see what it does?
if you were carrying around a bunch of unneccessary weight everywhere you weent that you didnt have to, wouldnt you want to know and get rid of it??

understand. we have nothing to gain by telling you this. you dont become 'our' follower or some such concept. all i'm interested in is whether you see if it matters any, if it changes your life either way, to live WITH it, and then live WITHOUT it. maybe not forever. just for a coupla months. so you can see for yourself if it makes any difference. you know you can always start up again. its not likeyoure gonna forget. we sure as hell havent forgotten.

think about the question. its not a trick. its an honest proposal. to do your life with the working theory that maharaji really isnt anything. you come first.

consider it.

you know what they say about not judging till you walk a mile in another persons shoes. here are mine. i invite you to try them on for a month or so. keep em longer if you like. see if the world is different in em.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:45:27 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Re: then,Another question, Cat
Message:
You underestimate me . I believe you 'walked'.You have everything you say. Except the experience of K. Your choice .So what?
What do you take me for ? A programmed robot? Of course I've lived for months , years without active participation and practice in the past. So what? I only do it now because I VALUE it. Why else would any one commit to a life practice. You would have to be a fool. Are you telling me you were prepared to devote yourself to something you didn't really experience? More fool you I say
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:07:37 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Your two bobs' worth at least two quid
Message:
You hit the nail on the head, Peter. Everyone wants to feel special. Some of us are contented to do it the hard way- by earning it. Others take the easy way out and are content to be ''saved'' by the master and then have this special little secret which they are supposed to ''propagate.'' Makes them feel superior.
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 00:37:18 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: All
Subject: CAC - better than it could have been
Message:
I am comparing the CAC mob to the Jonestown bullies and thugs and murderers that Jim Jones had trailing around. Or to the AUN RE whatisname people, in Japan - the Sarin gas mob. Well in my own clumsy way I reckon that these reactionary forces from MJ are fairly mild by comparison. I am also remembering some of the other links on this forum to other less savoury cults where physical intimidation was standard practice - yoga mobs in the US. The few responses (Victoria-thingy) on here show that they have the intellectual capacity similar to the guy in LOTU who talked about killing for his lord.

Mind you there are also better responses as well. One group I recall - a US yoga mob - the yoga charismatic leader (old story - fucking young women, money, the works) when confronted he said they were right, was willingly defrocked and sent home for penance. I can't see it happenning with MJ though.

Though they are mild in comparison - I reckon feeling stalked feels like shit - so I also feel for Sir Dave - its a shitty feeling alright.

Cheers for now

Peter

ps The survey on CAC is hopeful 'Yes I left because of CAC and I'm sure you'll be the first to know.' Sorry. Perhaps 'wishful' might be a better word

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 11:04:37 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: But the exodus is just starting
Message:
Time will tell but IMO, the real exodus is just starting.
I'm curious and interested enough to hang around long enough to see how freaky M will get. If the number of wealthy premies dimishes enough that M has to change his lifestyle my bet is that he will try some dire tatics. If the stock market continues it's downward trend and if the economy slows enough I surely hope M will be greatly affected. If and when M has to start consolidating his wealth, one can only wonder what exactly he is capable of. M may well be quite capable of some detrimental psychotic behavior. How psychotic do you have to be to think that you are a 'perfect master' anyway?
Should be interesting to see how this unfolds.

Tonette

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 12:18:18 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Sorry to disappoint you Toni
Message:
It ain't gonna happen.

'I'm curious and interested enough to hang around long enough to see how freaky M will get .'

Really? Try a bullfight, that's your crowd.

But the scenario to your nasty little mental soap opera and the outcome you are so desperately hoping for, will not eventuate.

You see, M's 'wealth' is already consolidated.
How much does one need...10, 20, 100 mil? 200 mill?
Believe me, if there's a full, complete, total stockmarket crash, you'll be in no position to gloat happily over M's downfall. Food and shelter may be a little higher on your priority list.

But, unlike you, M has thousands of very grateful people who wish him only the very best. Personally speaking, as my family grows older and moves on, I will end up with my grubby little hands on a small part of a 400 year old family fortune. The inheritance means nothing to me now, I am very happy and comfortable. But facts are facts, and in due course, it will come my way. If, when the time comes, M requires my financial assistance, I will be more than happy to oblige. He has done me the greatest service for 30 years and it would be my pleasure to help him in any way. I also know of at least a dozen other baby boomers from similar backrounds who are in the same position.

Thought about cockfighting, dog fights? They get pretty 'freaky'.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:11:39 (EDT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: Sorry to disappoint you Toni
Message:
Dear SC,

Your points are fine. I think what you fail to notice is that Tonette and others are feeling very badly about what effect MJ has had in their lives and consequently imagine this effect on others lives as well. Now you seem OK with MJ and for 30 years have been having a relatively good time and are greatful to MJ etc. However are you able to see and feel the experience that Tonette is having. Are you able to get into her shoes for a moment. Not for long mind you but just for a moment. If you could you would find that there is pain and disappointment there. This pain and disappointment is as a result of MJ, just as what you have is as a result of MJ. Does you satisfaction and pleasure with MJ make it OK that Tonette and others experience so much pain? This is the question that I find tough. At what cost do certain people find MJ to be of value. He clearly isn't for everyone but it seesm that the cost of finding that out is very high for some people.

Anyway its good that you respond and let us know about your own resources to support MJ. Your position fills a few holes in the picture. Thanks.

Peter

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 18:29:15 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Re: Sorry to disappoint you Toni
Message:
SC,

Have you considered using your wealth to help those who genuinely need it rather that a rich Indian playboy? Or maybe you have had your morals brainwashed out of you?

John.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 22:47:58 (EDT)
From: SC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes we do
Message:
My Grandmother was involved with the Surrey branch of the Red Cross before, during and after the war, when she was made President of the Barnett Hill National headquarters. She also travelled extensively to oversee fund allocation and monitor work being done to alleviate suffering in many parts of the world. That has been a long term beneficiary of family funds. I worked for the same orgaisation in Sydney in the 1990s. The family trusts are also involved with several other notable global aid agencies to this day.
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:11:41 (EDT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: the risks of freedom
Message:
We have here quite the promo of the modern day premie. One who is a good example of the risks of choice.
Although I personally doubt most of what this person says it all seems so fake.
Play the guitar? Well says the premie, I am a premie who plays and is quite succesful at it (hint - more successful than you are, ex-premie)
Interested in writng? I am a professional writer and a premie.
Having financial struggles or conflicts in these days of nearly worldwide recession? Well hey, I am a premie who has acquired wealth though doesn't care about it and I would gladly give it to the leader who has helped me stay serene through it all.

This is an extreme but revealing example of where lack of inner sense of self can lead. And no SC I did not respond to you directly. You don't exist.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 14:24:48 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: You speak with full pockets...
Message:
SC said:

Personally speaking, as my family grows older and moves on, I will end up with my grubby little hands on a small part of a 400 year old family fortune. The inheritance means nothing to me now, I am very happy and comfortable. But facts are facts, and in due course, it will come my way. If, when the time comes, M requires my financial assistance, I will be more than happy to oblige. He has done me the greatest service for 30 years and it would be my pleasure to help him in any way. I also know of at least a dozen other baby boomers from similar backrounds who are in the same position.

I say this: so what? You're one of those fortunates who hasn't had to work for a real living because you have a huge inheritance. Your attitude reflects that. I live around a lot of what I call ''Trust Fund Kids.'' Those are baby boomers who haven't a clue about what real work is about. They just wait for their monthly trustfund checks, or inevidible inheritance and live the good life.

What about all the poor premies out there, SC? If you want the cult to keep going why not donate the money to them? Support their flights to Australia and India, etc., etc....

I cannot imagine Maharaji needing anything more than he has already acquired on the backs of poor/middle class premies. But you wouldn't know about that. You're just waiting for death and the big check.

You're typical, SC. You haven't a clue.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 13:57:41 (EDT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: SC
Subject: Hey, you were forgetting your heart
Message:
I don't know how you could come off like that and be 'in that place.'
Anyway, I hope you got lots of cash to help M in his old age because he's more than likely gonna want an even bigger boat or house or plane. Whatever premie ji. Glad you love him so much. But I don't and neither does 99% of the folks here.
No, I'm not worried about the stock market. I happen to work for a living instead of the parasitic act M has perfected. And BTY, cockfights and such are the things on your mind, not mine.
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 04:12:00 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: US yoga mobs? Where? When? Do tell!
Message:
Too funny. I had a vision of a lot of grey haired baby boomers in Birkenstocks chasing a guru in robes down the main street.
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 05:23:01 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: US yoga mobs? Where? When? Do tell!
Message:
Well, I think he's talking about Amrit Desai and the Kripalu Center who defrocked him. I noticed he's advertising in Yoga Journal again.

love Disculta, occasional Yoga Mobette

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 14:04:11 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Re: US yoga mobs? Where? When? Do tell!
Message:
Well, I guess I am too much of an old fogey armchair yogi to keep up with all this defrocking. ;)
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 01:42:36 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Peter Howie
Subject: When cults disintegrate
Message:
Peter: Thanks for your post. The comparison to Peoples Temple and the people who surrounded Jim Jones is spot on. As influential members of PT left the church, Jones and those around him engaged in all sorts of activities to undermine them and their reports about what was really going on in Peoples Temple. Those who left the fold were accused of being child molesters, of engaging in homosexual activity, or committed other supposed crimes -- just as those named by CAC have been branded.

Here is a passage from 'Raven' by Tim Reiterman, at page 225-226:

...Jones wrestled with his own feelings of rejection. Over the years, each defection would strike him as if he had been physically wounded. He would fly into rages at the slightest provocation, the slightest sign of unwaivering loyalty. Teeth gnashing, facial muscles ready to snap, he would unleash the most abusive, almost maniacal language against potential traitors. He would menace the potentially unfaithful; he would wave a pistol inside [meetings], telling his followers not to dare leave him, not even to doze while he was talking. Losing even one person from the inner circle infuriated him.'

Sound familiar PAMS?

Give it some thought.

Marianne

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 05:25:34 (EDT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: When cults disintegrate
Message:
But Marianne, the most amazing description I ever read was a link someone put up last year about Adi Da (formerly Da Free John/Frankiln Jones) and how he has been so stressed out in the last year about the world not 'recognizing' him. He had a 'heart attack' that turned out to be just stress from his non-recognition, but soon the cult made it into an amazing new awakening he had achieved, and that they never could achieve.

Does anyone remember this and know the link? It's absolutely hysterical reading.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 00:45:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Re: CAC - better than it could have been
Message:
Pete,

Could you eamil me please?

jamesheller@home.com

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 22:29:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Two simple questions for premies
Message:
Do you think your breath is conscious?

If so, what do you mean?

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 23:37:35 (EDT)
From: Dirk
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: and a question for Passing Through
Message:
You say below that the 'Grace' that Maharaji talks about is his, as you put it, 'goodwill'.
I Have heard Maharaji say repeatedly that Knowledge is Nothing without Maharaji, the 'Grace' Of the Master. It is, as he puts it just words on a piece of paper. ( I have also heard Maharaji say that Guru Maharaji created God, but not in over 25 years, and why confuse things with the truth).

In that case, does he mean knowledge is nothing without the 'Goodwill' of the Master? Or is it more reasonable to assume that he is implying that without connecting to the Master (loving him, worshipping him, giving him money) you can't experience the fruition of those simple 'public domain' techniques?
I myself have found these same techniques from other places besides Maharaji. And although I no longer Practice them, I have heard from numerous people who have said that practicing the techniques of knowledge is even More blissful when not encumbered with the belief that you somehow need to connect with Maharaji for them to work.

Do not those 'Facts' contradict Maharaji's statements? Or is there a convenient Rationalization handy to Keep Maharaji on his throne of Power and Priviledge, by His 'Grace'? Just Wondering ;-)

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 22:09:52 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I found this: PREMIE TALK
Message:
From Drek's desk.

PREMIE TALK

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 09:57:27 (EDT)
From: A Brief History in time line
Email: None
To: All
Subject: of a Rawat cult member
Message:
crying
fighting
drinking
a child abuser
schooling
Catholic
bad behavior
under achieving
adolescent confusion
loneliness
college
drinking
smoking
pot
lsd
no direction
working
guru
hoping
marriage
divorce
drinking
guru
despairing
guru
footkissing
guru
footkissing
despairing
video
guru
no footkissing
guru
depression
prozac
recovering
EPO
Forum V
anger at guru
anger at self
to be determined
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 23:12:23 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: A Brief History in time line
Subject: Poetic Wholeness
Message:
Concise and poetic. Like our lives. We think our lives are incredibly complex dramas, but...we are so much more alike each other than different than each other...so a few words suffice.

Good luck with your journey to wholeness - which we thought a unifying father-Guru would supply; but, as it turns out, it is up to us and our partners to work towards returning to wholeness. (Not returning to the womb. That's what we tried to do with Maharaji.)

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 00:26:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: You can say that again!
Message:
...we are so much more alike each other than different than each other.

It just kills me when premies like David Andersen take individuality to an absurd solipsistic end. As if each one of us has our own cosmos with its own rules (or not, I guess). Each premie has his own incomparable experience of 'knowledge', their own, unique relationship with the guy in the chair up there.

And then, when they do the same thing with language, pretending that each one has their own unique meaning of all the words that matter here ....

And THEN, when they do the same thing for logic and reasoning .....

Why it's enough to ... I don't know. I just don't know.

Oh yeah, by the way, great poem. Fantastic.

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 18:17:09 (EDT)
From: fan-tastic
Email: None
To: A Brief History in time line
Subject: A per-fect summary! nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 18:17:02 (EDT)
From: fan-tastic
Email: None
To: A Brief History in time line
Subject: A per-fect summary! nt
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:55:56 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: A Brief History in time line
Subject: Re: of a Rawat cult member
Message:
thanks for joining in for some healing...we all have such similiar (but unique) paths into and out of that cult. fyi life is great! learining to reclaim my own power, able to celebrate with friends while working together (not for someone else)...fresh air and breathing again after so much fear and self doubt. rejoice all.
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 19:51:14 (EDT)
From: chuckF
Email: ChuckF@ozark-magic.gq.nu
To: michael donner
Subject: Re: of a Rawat cult member
Message:
good to see my family is alive and on the street where we belong!
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 17:07:21 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Way cool!
Message:
This place is way cool. And it's nice to meet old friends and make new ones. And we don't have to worry about the rotting vegetables either because they are all in Maharaji's head.
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 08:13:48 (EDT)
From: it IS so
Email: None
To: All
Subject: polling both open re:CAC
Message:
hot of the press. Cast your vote

check it out

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 14:13:01 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: it IS so
Subject: Your typos, Salam
Message:
You know you are supposed to write English from left to right not right to left. ;)
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 19:26:22 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: No, that's new to me
Message:
when did that happen? I thought inglich was slapping it together. Fuck the guru. Haven't slep all night.
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 19:32:17 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: No, that's new to me
Message:
You're working too hard. But it's a fantastic job you've done with It Is So. Many thanks.
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 20:28:24 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: As salasa says, kick ass.
Message:
Hey, do we know if premies have been instructed not to voice their opinion or something. I have 25 exes and no premies voting. Pathetic init?
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 08:18:27 (EDT)
From: salsa
Email: None
To: it IS so
Subject: kick ass NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 06:57:38 (EDT)
From: pierre
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Get off that computer now!(ot)
Message:
Saturday September 1 3:37 PM ET
Physicist Warns Humans About A.I.
BERLIN (AP) - People get ready: the machines are coming.
That's the word from famed British physicist Stephen Hawking, who says if humans hope to compete with the rising tide of artificial intelligence, they'll have to improve through genetic engineering.
In an interview released Saturday with the newsmagazine Focus, Hawking said science could increase the complexity of DNA and ``improve'' human beings.
He conceded that it would be a long process, ``but we should follow this road if we want biological systems to remain superior to electronic ones.''
``In contrast with our intellect, computers double their performance every 18 months,'' he added. ``So the danger is real that they could develop intelligence and take over the world.''
``We must develop as quickly as possible technologies that make possible a direct connection between brain and computer, so that artificial brains contribute to human intelligence rather than opposing it,'' Hawking said.
Hawking, the author of the best-selling ``A Brief History of Time,'' holds a prestigious Cambridge University chair once held by Sir Isaac Newton.
The 59-year-old lives with Lou Gehrig's disease
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 08:56:37 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: pierre
Subject: Tell that to Maharaji
Message:
the stupider the better. Yes, stupider is a word. My boyfriend just told me it wasn't but we looked it up and I won. LOL

Thanks Pierre.

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 09:34:07 (EDT)
From: pierre
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Be afraid - It's happening
Message:
All those films like TERMINATOR and THE MATRIX are coming true!
Do you think they will have an A.I.Perfect Master/Guru in the future? and would s/he/it do any worse than those who currently try to lead us to a better life?
pierre
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 12:33:55 (EDT)
From: Julian
Email: None
To: pierre
Subject: No need for masters
Message:
Computers will make far better masters than any humans would. Artificial intellegence will be mankind's saviour. When logic and reason rules this ape, there will finally be peace in the world.
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 10:16:15 (EDT)
From: silvia
Email: None
To: pierre
Subject: taugh question
Message:
No. I don't think is possible. Is not practical.

I believe man; to reach the highest human potential has to be left alone. I think to avoid self-alienation a being has to be free of any type of guru/teacher dogma. I rather ask and answer my own questions about MY life. I can read, use references, learn but a direct guidance brings corruption of the self.

Then, why are you asking that? Do I think we need to know more than we already know to enjoy the life experience while we are here? Perhaps, maybe we do; we can amaze ourselves to think about the many possibilities our Universe may have, its reasons. Was there a beginning? Does the Universe have a purpose related with us or we are just here trying to understand it, thinking we are the center of it? However, whatever a human being understands, whatever conclusion he/she may reach is only speculation, at least so far, in our age. How can I then conclude with certainty that there should be a guru, today, or tomorrow, should, as a need? Is there a need for direct guidance?

By having been in the cult for twenty some years I am in a point where life is passing by and I must learn about me, who I'm, what is important to me, I must know me. Where does a guru fits in that? Guru knows better, so do books and information. No to leaders! And that goes beyond not being able to trust a guru/teacher because one deceived me, but further. I'm no Hawkins, but I think a being doesn't need a master but needs to master himself/herself, become a REAL, FREE being. That is all what so far have become important to me after exiting the cult. What is to be free? To feel comfortable with whom I am, in all senses. People look for exterior help when they themselves have run out of explanation about their lives, i.e., have gotten out of touch with themselves. I don't see the world as I used to as a premie anymore, as something chaotic and crazy but it's the best it can be right now. There is bad but there is also much good. I'm rambling...lol

Yeah, I suppose there will be others in the future trying to control the masses saying that theirs is the best to know. Nevertheless, we don’t lack information these days and what man can benefit the most is knowing the importance of what constitutes having quality of life; nutrition, health, FAMILY, etc., as oppose to knowing a God. The most stupid people I know are the ones, my friends for example, people who live life according to what is “suppose to be lived like, according to a GOD, not to what THEY consider important to themselves and they are most simply neurotic beings. In freedom, we grow as human beings. In repression, we alienate ourselves.

Do you think we need a master/guru and if yes, why?

Silvia

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 11:58:42 (EDT)
From: pierre
Email: None
To: silvia
Subject: Re: taugh question
Message:
Hi Sylvia,
You ask a couple of questions...
Do I think we need to know more than we already know to enjoy the life experience while we are here?
Is there a need for direct guidance?
Do we need a guru?..

Well I think we all need someone who we can trust and who knows what he's talking about.
But for me it's a case of once (maybe twice - oh go on then more than a few times ) bitten twice shy. I fell for the Guru and others at different times in my life, telling me they were acting/advising in my best interests and it turned out they had hidden agendas ( or their advice was based on superstition rather than fact ) - so I am not so trusting any more.
Also I think the truth is fragmented and in many different places and can only be glimpsed through lots of study and a lifetime of experience ( if you're lucky)
So although I certainly need to know more in order to get more out of life I don't think I can learn it from any one person/guru
Yet I can't help feeling humbled by those who have dedicated their lives to some aspect of this creation - like Hawkins. I know I'll never be as clever but I would still rather discover my own aspect of truth - albeit with such guys help in what they write.
What we don't need is some mystic rubbish based on nothing but wish fulfillment and fantasy - a balance of head and heart is more my pursuit these days.
wishing you well,
pierre.
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 23:54:52 (EDT)
From: Rick W
Email: expremie@home.com
To: pierre
Subject: Hawking
Message:
Hey Pierre,

If you enjoy Hawking I highly recommend Brian Greene's 'Elegant Universe' about string theory

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 14:06:19 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: pierre
Subject: What a delightful conversation
Message:
Thanks Pierre, Silvia and Julian.

Have you guys read E M Forster's short story written in 1903, ''The Machine Stopped?''

I have thousands of gurus all come to visit me in my own home via the internet.

Pierre did you know that Rawat gives Knowledge by DVD now? It's called Auto-Knowledge.

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 16:02:14 (EDT)
From: pierre
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: What a delightful conversation
Message:
Hi Pat,
So I guess that virtual knowledge will be given to (and by) A.I. machines in the future.
I'd rather be on the playstation myself.
I'm glad I won't be around to see it
pierre
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 23:47:32 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: pierre
Subject: Re: What a delightful conversation
Message:
I've seen it. Auto k review at the Santa Monica event last year. First place it was tried out en masse.......
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 16:28:59 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: pierre
Subject: Love of Self
Message:
Great conversations, everyone!

Growing up I never understood what loving one's self meant. I never could understand it. Then, when I entered the world of Maharaji, practicing knowldege was supposed to be loving myself because I was surrendering something to a master.

It wasn't until I met my husband that I learned what loving myself meant. One day, many years ago, in the grips of despair, I just told him that I hate myself and that I felt I was ugly--inside and out.

He said to me ''Why do you insult me that way?''

I said ''What do you mean?''

He said: ''Do you love me?'' Yes was my answer. He said: ''then you insult me by saying you are worthless and ugly, do you think I would marry someone who I saw as ugly and worthless?''

I still didn't understand loving myself and it took years of studying this issue--going deep inside of myself (not with K) but through reading, guidance of a therapist I do trust implicitly, and through making decisions in my life that make me feel right, not wrong.

Maharaji always made me feel inadequate, wrong, defective. So did my bio-father.

Now, with the help of so many smart, intellectual, thoughtful, and loving ex-premies, I have learned that I do love myself. I have confidence that I am worthy of what I do, mentally, physically, emotionally, in my work, in my play.

I don't feel guilty about having fun and have dropped many of the instructions of the one master I acquired in my life: Maharaji.

Masters, male, female or IA, are not necessary, IMO. I certainly don't believe a computer/IA could love me. I certainly don't believe I would love it, either. It will be a very dark world, indeed, when/if machines make us their slaves, as Maharaji did.

My 1 cent.
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 00:41:34 (EDT)
From: From the MASTER
Email: None
To: All
Subject: is he ever going to stop?
Message:
So find the joy that is in front of you. Discover it, touch it, feel it, enjoy it. That is the truest happiness. The happiness of family is good, but it is limited. The happiness of being successful is good, but it is limited. None of these happinesses, none of these joys, removes the darkness of the inside. It doesn't matter how many degrees you have, they can never take away ignorance. But something else does. This is your companion. It will take you inside to the same place where it has always taken you, to the same beautiful, joyful, timeless place where you will be merged with eternity. To be one. And, truly, that is liberation. That is salvation.

SALVATION/SALIVATION/STARVATION/EMANCIPATION/VACATI0N/ANTICIPATION/MOTIVATION/PROCRASTINATION/OVERNIGHT SENSATION/LAST BUT NOT LEAST, MASTURBATION.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 06:35:49 (EDT)
From: bill-
Email: None
To: From the MASTER
Subject: Idiot is still promising 'to be one' [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 10:50:56 (EDT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: bill-
Subject: Re: Idiot is still promising 'to be one'
Message:
But you are only one(idiot).
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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 15:26:52 (EDT)
From: salsa but no ketchup
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Djuro, get a working brain
Message:
would you? You a nonsense.
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 04:38:35 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: From the MASTER
Subject: Same old religious fundamentalism
Message:
Around about the time Krishna supposedly lived and played with Gopis and told Arjuna to slaughter his relatives and not be attached and that this world was maya, an illusion and nothing whatsoever mattered except solipsistic bliss, Socrates was chewing the fat with Cephalus.

From Plato's ''Republic.'' Written 2,400 years ago. People haven't changed much.

Cephalus was sitting on a sort of couch with cushions and he had a chaplet on his head, for he had just finished sacrificing in the court. So we went and sat down beside him, for there were seats there disposed in a circle.

As soon as he saw me Cephalus greeted me and said, ''You are not a very frequent visitor, Socrates. You don't often come down to the Peiraeus to see us. That is not right. For if I were still able to make the journey up to town (Athens) easily there would be no need of your resorting hither, but we would go to visit you. But as it is you should not space too widely your visits here. For I would have you know that, for my part, as the satisfactions of the body decay, in the same measure my desire for the pleasures of good talk and my delight in them increase. Don't refuse then, but be yourself and have fun with these lads and make our house your resort and regard us as your very good friends and intimates.''

''Why, yes, Cephalus,'' said I, ''and I enjoy talking with the very aged. For to my thinking we have to learn of them as it were from wayfarers who have preceded us on a road on which we too, it may be, must some time fare--what it is like--is it rough and hard going or easy and pleasant to travel. And so now I would fain learn of you what you think of this thing, now that your time has come to it, the thing that the poets call ‘the threshold of old age.’ Is it a hard part of life to bear or what report have you to make of it?''

''Yes, indeed, Socrates,'' Cephalus said, ''I will tell you my own feeling about it. For it often happens that some of us elders of about the same age come together and verify the old saw of like to like (birds of a feather flock together - Ed.) At these reunions most of us make lament, longing for the lost joys of youth and recalling to mind the pleasures of wine, women, and feasts, and other things thereto appertaining, and they repine in the belief that the greatest things have been taken from them and that then they lived well and now it is no life at all. And some of them complain of the indignities that friends and kinsmen put upon old age and thereto recite a doleful litany of all the miseries for which they blame old age. But in my opinion, Socrates, they do not put the blame on the real cause. For if it were the cause I too should have had the same experience so far as old age is concerned, and so would all others who have come to this time of life.

''But in fact I have ere now met with others who do not feel in this way, and in particular I remember hearing Sophocles the poet greeted by a fellow who asked,'How about your service of Aphrodite (sex life - Ed,) Sophocles--is your natural force still unabated?'

''And Sophocles replied, 'Hush, man, most gladly have I escaped this thing you talk of, as if I had run away from a raging and savage beast of a master.'

''I thought it a good answer then and now I think so still more. For in very truth there comes to old age a great tranquillity in such matters and a blessed release. When the fierce tensions of the passions and desires relax, then is the word of Sophocles proved,and we are rid of many and mad masters. But indeed in respect of these complaints and in the matter of our relations with kinsmen and friends there is just one cause, Socrates--not old age, but the character of the man. For if men are temperate and cheerful even old age is only moderately burdensome. But if the reverse, old age, Socrates, and youth are hard for such dispositions.''

And I was filled with admiration for the man by these words, and desirous of hearing more I tried to draw him out and said, ''I fancy, Cephalus, that most people, when they hear you talk in this way, are not convinced but think that you bear old age lightly not because of your character but because of your wealth. For the rich, they say, have many consolations.''

''You are right,'' he said. ''They don't accept my view and there is something in their objection, though not so much as they suppose. But the retort of Themistocles comes in pat here, who, when a man from the little island of Seriphus grew abusive and told him that he owed his fame not to himself but to the city from which he came, replied that neither would he himself ever have made a name if he had been born in Seriphus nor the other if he had been an Athenian. And the same principle applies excellently to those who not being rich take old age hard; for neither would the reasonable man find it altogether easy to endure old age conjoined with poverty, nor would the unreasonable man by the attainment of riches ever attain to self-contentment and a cheerful temper.''

''May I ask, Cephalus,'' said I, ''whether you inherited most of your possessions or acquired them yourself?''

''Acquired, eh?'' he said. ''As a moneymaker, I hold a place somewhere halfway between my grandfather and my father. For my grandfather and namesake inherited about as much property as I now possess and multiplied it many times, my father Lysanias reduced it below the present amount, and I am content if I shall leave the estate to these boys not less but by some slight measure more than my inheritance.''

''The reason I asked,'' I said, is that you appear to me not to be over-fond of money. And that is generally the case with those who have not earned it themselves. But those who have themselves acquired it have a double reason in comparison with other men for loving it. For just as poets feel complacency about their own poems and fathers about their own sons, so men who have made money take this money seriously as their own creation and they also value it for its uses as other people do. So they are hard to talk to since they are unwilling to commend anything except wealth.''

''You are right,'' he replied.

''I assuredly am,'' said I. ''But tell me further this. What do you regard as the greatest benefit you have enjoyed from the possession of property?''

''Something,'' he said, ''which I might not easily bring many to believe if I told them. For let me tell you, Socrates,'' he said, ''that when a man begins to realize that he is going to die, he is filled with apprehensions and concern about matters that before did not occur to him. The tales that are told of the world below and how the men who have done wrong here must pay the penalty there, though he may have laughed them down hitherto, then begin to torture his soul with the doubt that there may be some truth in them. And apart from that the man himself either from the weakness of old age or possibly as being now nearer to the things beyond has a somewhat clearer view of them. Be that as it may, he is filled with doubt, surmises, and alarms and begins to reckon up and consider whether he has ever wronged anyone. Now he to whom the ledger of his life shows an account of many evil deeds starts up even from his dreams like children again and again in affright and his days are haunted by anticipations of worse to come. But on him who is conscious of no wrong that he has done a sweet hope ever attends and a goodly to be nurse of his old age, as Pindar too says. For a beautiful saying it is, Socrates, of the poet that when a man lives out his days in justice and piety,

'sweet companion with him, to cheer his heart and nurse his old age, accompanies Hope, who chiefly rules the changeful mind of mortals.'

That is a fine saying and an admirable one. It is for this, then, that I affirm that the possession of wealth is of most value not it may be to every man but to the good man. Not to cheat any man even unintentionally or play him false, not remaining in debt to a god for some sacrifice or to a man for money, so to depart in fear to that other world--to this result the possession of property contributes not a little. It has also many other uses. But, setting one thing against another, I would lay it down, Socrates, that for a man of sense this is the chief service of wealth.''

''An admirable sentiment, Cephalus,'' said I. ''But speaking of this very thing, justice, are we to affirm thus without qualification that it is truth-telling and paying back what one has received from anyone, or may these very actions sometimes be just and sometimes unjust? I mean, for example, as everyone I presume would admit, if one took over weapons from a friend who was in his right mind and then the lender should go mad and demand them back, that we ought not to return them in that case and that he who did so return them would not be acting justly--nor yet would he who chose to speak nothing but the truth to one who was in that state.''

''You are right,'' he replied. ''Then this is not the definition of justice: to tell the truth and return what one has received.''

If you find this interesting you can read the rest of it at:

The Perseus Project

If anyone has any illusion that Hinduism or Maharajism is superior to our western Platonic culture, please think again. Unless you have studied your own civilization you are being arrogantly ignorant to dismiss it.

Most premies that I know think western culture and civilzation (apart form rock-n-roll and hi-tech) is inferior. Most premies that I know hardly ever read now and have seldom read in the past.

Old age is creeping up on all of us. I'd rather hang out with the wise men of the west than the wallow in religious fundamentalism posing as the esotericism of the east.

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 11:32:21 (EDT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Thanks for that link!
Message:
It has immediately gone to my favorites list.

I love the Socratic method, asking the necessary questions to logically get at the truth, or lack of truth, within an assertion or an assumption.

IMHO, by our existence we've been granted a stewardship of our intellects and rationality, as well as our creative intuitions and, sometimes, necessary leaps of faith. And, we are animated by the lifebreath energy, and given our consciousness to do with as we will. These ought not to be warring territories in our lifescape, but rather cooperative partners, each amplifying and cheering on each other in the process of growing our understanding of 'truth'. Ideally, these inner components test and reinforce one another, and are known and felt as parts of a complete integrity, rather than to be seen as higher or lower functions or as dissociated fragments eternally unintegrated.

In the spirit of fair inquiry, no question is ever 'out of line'. Many of the ancient thinkers seemed to have a respectful humor about them, at least most translations give me that impression.

Another great guy is Marcus Aurelius. His 'Meditations' are sobering, refreshing, and distinctly lacking in fuzzy sentimentality, in my opinion.

Thanks again for the link. Great, just what I need, even more reasons to spend time staring into a computer terminal!

Best wishes to you,
Carl

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Date: Mon, Sep 03, 2001 at 14:09:22 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: respectful humor
Message:
Unfortunately too many socalled ''scholars'' seem to miss the gentle humor of the Greek philosphers and are so pompompous and pious that thay have alienated people from it. Well, a bit like opera buffs treating it as a religion and putting folks off it.
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 17:46:59 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Same old religious fundamentalism
Message:
Hi Pat,

Thanks for the post. By the 70's and 80's, we were amazed at the exotic appeal of Eastern Though, but this fad has waned for overthe past decade. i.e. Sitcoms like Dharma and Gregg tell it all. Just a sexy gal who does a little yoga whose parents are aging freaks from the 60's. Westerners have reduced it to comedy.

Now, this fall we have another sitcom with Jason Alexander (George from Seinfeld) playing the Beverly Hills guru.

I am very familiar with Perseus Project and pleasantly surprised to see it linked here. I've spent hours and hours at that site.

Let's have more posts and/or discussions like this.

Hope you're having a good day.

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 19:30:34 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Deborah
Subject: Thanks Deb
Message:
I hope you are having an absolutely fabulous day too.

I just said to Chuck this morning that I am starting to feel completely sane for the first time in ages. No more struggling to be spiritual. No more of the urug's insane commentaries. No wonder he doesn't practice K. It makes people nuts trying to find some fantasy ''inside.'' We're all perfect, clear and sane anyway.

Perseus Project is one of my favorite sites because I study the ancient Greeks. I found it when I was making my website about ancient Greek homosexuality years ago.

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Date: Tues, Sep 04, 2001 at 21:47:41 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Thanks Deb
Message:
Pat, I sent you an email talking more about this stuff.
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 05:02:28 (EDT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: thanks for that deep drink
Message:
i miss these dialogs greatly. i was in honors english in sophoore year of highschol and i soaked this up like a dry garden in a storm. but it got away from me. seeing it again is like a tall drink of ice water.
lets have more. a quote a day for a while?
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 06:14:46 (EDT)
From: Peg
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Yes thanks Pat
Message:
My poor lazy brain struggles to follow the thread but also it is fantastic to feel that my mind has more room to think.
The other day I read a bit of Richard Dawkins.. a little book called God's utility function which is part of a larger one called 'A River out of Eden' Damn! I can't find it I wanted to give you a Quote.
Anyway the point is reading it I felt for tha first time in 30 years that i could be an atheist...it wouldn't be that bad That was such a big taboo and now it is gone. I'm back to where i was at about 14 when I began to question Christianity.
God grant me an open mind...oops!
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 17:16:19 (EDT)
From: Deborah
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Re: Yes thanks Pat
Message:
Hi Peg,

I share the exact same sentiment. The idea of Atheism has no emotional charge on me at all. As a matter of fact, it is refreshing.

I am interested in reading some of Dawkins stuff myself.

I think it is Jim recommended 'Climbing Mt. Improbable'
and 'The Selfish Gene'.

Give us a little book report when you finish reading, will you.

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 13:37:22 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Peg
Subject: Post-cult clarity and sanity
Message:
Too funny, Peg, because I too felt like I went back to the simple clear understanding that I had before meeting the urug. Maharajism was like laying a coat of cheap fake gold paint of primitive Hinduism over a gothic cathedral. How can we even compare Hindu rubbish with our history? Just think of the music. Did India ever produce a Bach, Beethoven or Brahms? I know why I did it. Like most of us in the sixties, I was disenchanted with western ideals and along came a lot of esoteric mumbo-jumbo that fit right into my acid-addled brain.
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 17:52:39 (EDT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Post-cult clarity and sanity
Message:
Hi Pat
What about ,,,, did indian ever produce a dylan , cohen ,zappa
beatle, stones, or a dostojevskij, von kleinst, j.v jensen, hamsun
best wishes
ulf
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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 19:39:54 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Re: Post-cult clarity and sanity
Message:
Hi ulf. They produced some interesting poets and of course some beautiful music but certainly not elegant polyphony or Shakespeare. I'm not a lover of the musicians you mentioned although they are interesting.

In movies they had Satyajit Ray but, if you have ever seen any Bollywood movies, then you'll know that most of their art is not much better than tinsel. India produces more movies than any other country in the world.

Interesting fact I read the other day too: There is only one internet provider in India and it is owned and operated by the government which keeps the costs deliberately high to discourage the ordinary people from accessing it.

Well, they also have more slaves than any other country in the world. Not a highly enlightened culture on the whole.

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 16:40:58 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat:C)
Subject: Re: Post-cult clarity and sanity
Message:
Hi Pat,

Same here. I NEVER was attracted to any New Age Religions, Sages, Eastern religions or anything like that.

I do love studying other cultures but I like the western culture. Your example of music struck a chord :) for me. I studied opera when I was in my late teens, my teacher wanted me to study in Italy.

I grew a love for classical music at an early age. I adore Mozart, Beethoven, and many others. I also love the music of the early to mid-20th century produced right here in the US. Gershwin, Jazz, all those incredible artists who gave and continue to give us so much were introduced to me by my husband.

When I met Tom I had been out of the ashram and K scene for 9 months. All I knew was pop, and devotional music. He changed all that. His collection of music is large and full of variety.

And books. Oh I love reading. Not just novels, but everything I see that interests me and I submerge myself into learning that way. My retention level is not up to par, but I think that has to do with dissociating, as well as recovering from a cult. Whatever Tom reads, mostly classics, lately, he re-reads and remembers everything.

Life is great, isn't it?

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Date: Sun, Sep 02, 2001 at 17:04:41 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Post-cult clarity and sanity
Message:
Yes, Life is great and our ancestors be praised. From Plato to Camus and Couperin to Gershwin. I am very glad to have all of western civilization as my heritage. Beats superficial new age bastardization of eastern esotericism anyday. Tom sounds like just my kind of guy. Lucky you. Lucky him too.
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