Bob -:- spontaneity -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:36:08 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Thanks Bob -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:51:16 (EDT)

__ __ Zelda -:- Re: Ditto Now M. sells Denial retail -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:38:02 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- My apologies to Gerry deleted -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:33:17 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- Why are you doing this? -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:39:23 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Because poeple read you accusing me of rudeness -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:50:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Now you're pissing me off -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:30:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- gerry please dont -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:59:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Me having the password -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:58:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ gery -:- Yes, John, thanks. -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:29:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Gerry, you and I are not meant to fight -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:48:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ Zelda -:- 'Bufus' =term of endearment . Light hearted . [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:09:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- I understand -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:50:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: I understand -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:25:44 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- Re: I understand -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:17:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- Re: I understand -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:15:06 (EDT)

Francesca -:- To PEG: your post is gone -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:08:04 (EDT)

eBay Alert -:- Blue Aquarius LP For Sale -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:10:54 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- Okay, Once again...re: no text... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:49:02 (EDT)

btdt -:- re;Lady Charlene Glasserly -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:26:45 (EDT)

__ cq -:- Re: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:57:56 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- Re: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:47:38 (EDT)

btdt -:- re;Lady Charlene Glasserly -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:26:44 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Cost of the 'conference' for big donators -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:48:17 (EDT)

__ michael donner -:- Re: Cost of the 'conference' for big donators -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:55:26 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- What? Donations Down? -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:32:52 (EDT)

__ MahaMoneyBags -:- Wow!!Count Me IN!!(is toe kissing Extra?) -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:31:47 (EDT)

bob lesch -:- deca -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:59:03 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Your ''Recollections'' -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:37:27 (EDT)

__ RichMandrake -:- DECA, an Acronym for... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:20:09 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Great Acronym, Rich [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:48:57 (EDT)

__ bill -:- oh that tendency to paint things as if. -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 09:57:51 (EDT)

__ __ bill-just in case, -:- 'I suppose' means we didnt have them. [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:39:55 (EDT)

__ __ Rick -:- well done, Bill (NT) -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:03:44 (EDT)

cq -:- How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:23:24 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- Yep,how M claimed to be God! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:24:25 (EDT)

__ btdt -:- Re: How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:24:47 (EDT)

__ __ cq -:- Oh, yes, that imprint on our souls -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:35:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Re: Oh, yes, that imprint on our souls -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:31:00 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Re: How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:24:47 (EDT)

Pat:C) -:- Fringe premies, church ladies, fanatical cultists -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 04:13:28 (EDT)

__ such -:- r.e. LG premies -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:15:49 (EDT)

__ Toette -:- You hit the ail o the head! nt -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:20:06 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Did you have an n-dectomy, Tonette? -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:47:15 (EDT)

__ Gregg -:- premiespotting -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:09:39 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- PWKs are not premies, Gregg -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:10:18 (EDT)

__ BTDT -:- YES!!! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:10:36 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Now I want to hear your story, btdt [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:08:15 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Pat and BTDT...both Excellente! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:58:23 (EDT)

__ Rick -:- great, Pat -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:38:56 (EDT)

__ Loaf -:- EXCELLENT PAT ! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 06:02:55 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:07:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ Loaf -:- Re: Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:22:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:22:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Pat:C) -:- Many thanks Loafie -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:52:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Me, too...More, please -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:45:12 (EDT)

Barry -:- So! Maybe M did use the forum eh? -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:50:05 (EDT)

__ Loaf -:- THIS COULD BE MY FIRST 'FLAME' !! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 02:46:15 (EDT)

__ __ Zelda -:- Oh Loaf...!! We are all misty. Cngrats!! [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:04:49 (EDT)

__ __ Barry -:- Re: Just call me Bobby Brady! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:29:07 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- How are you Barry?? -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:14:06 (EDT)

__ __ Joe -:- Also... -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:21:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ gerry -:- Joe, I think this Jim's friend, not Bazza [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:50:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Isn't Bazza Jim's friend? -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:59:36 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- This is Barry Clarke, Jim's friend -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:04:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deborah -:- Hi Francesca and HI Barry you troublemaker ;) -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:37:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Re: Hi Francesca and HI Barry you troublemaker ;) -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:12:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Thanks Fran -:- But keep ya day job Barry -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:01:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Yo! Joe Satriani -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:22:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Re: This is Barry Clarke, Jim's friend -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:09:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barry -:- Re: Blind Joe! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:25:55 (EDT)

Joe -:- Why the Maharaji Cult is a Cult...Reprise -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:42:10 (EDT)

__ Gregg -:- A test for exes only: -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:28:58 (EDT)

__ Steve Quint -:- Re: Why the Maharaji Cult is a Cult...Reprise -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:48:24 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Good stuff, Steve... -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:50:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- These Ex-Premie Sites Are The Bests -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:28:41 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Re: Why the Maharaji Cult is a Cult...Reprise -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:04:07 (EDT)

__ __ Rick -:- Re: Why the Maharaji Cult is a Cult...Reprise -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 17:52:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- Yeah, but -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:05:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Rick -:- Re: Yeah, but -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:37:39 (EDT)

Bob Lesch (posted by JHB) -:- Ashram/Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:22:52 (EDT)

__ Gregg -:- Re:Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:40:38 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- Re: Ashram/Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:10:02 (EDT)

__ __ Deborah -:- Re: Ashram/Techniques -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:12:59 (EDT)

__ __ RichMandrake -:- Great Post Cynthia!!**BEST OF** -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 05:36:00 (EDT)

__ __ ggg -:- Re: Ashram/Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:37:47 (EDT)

__ __ gerry -:- *****BEST OF***** -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:19:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks, Gerry... [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:44:10 (EDT)

__ Joe -:- Re: Ashram/Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 17:31:40 (EDT)

__ Mirror at the End of the Road -:- Re: Ashram/Techniques -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:29:58 (EDT)

__ __ Francesca :C) -:- Ashram debt -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:41:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Ashram debt -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:31:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Unconscious -:- Sorry, I misunderstood ... -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:09:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ 'factonal'= -:- fiction+fact -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:33:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Your subconsious ... -:- Re: 'factonal' [sic] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 00:13:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: 'factonal' [sic] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:30:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Fran...I was nearly tranferred to SF in 1980... -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 17:21:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- We coulda been roomies! -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:38:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: We coulda been roomies! -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:18:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Heir David Schmitz -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:19:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ btdt -:- Re: Heir David Schmitz -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:44:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Heir David Schmitz -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:12:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca :C) -:- He comes short of foaming at the mouth -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:37:13 (EDT)

Joe -:- This was the crux of the cult for me.... -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:54:59 (EDT)

__ suchabanana -:- such an incredible feeling of relief [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:19:41 (EDT)

salam -:- an interesting link -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:34:38 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- A Request and Question... -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:17:28 (EDT)

__ Richard -:- Also use the edit feature -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:32:25 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Edit won't work for me -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:19:17 (EDT)

__ __ __ JHB -:- You're being slowly blocked -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:31:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Jim... -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:13:37 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- I use the edit all the time... -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:38:09 (EDT)

__ Forum janitor -:- Re: A Request and Question... -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:23:33 (EDT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Sure...do your thing:) [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:30:29 (EDT)

**** -:- ??? -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 12:32:04 (EDT)

__ salam -:- Re: ??? -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:11:40 (EDT)

__ __ silvia -:- What K does to people -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 15:17:42 (EDT)

__ __ !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- 0 M&K = :> -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:33:37 (EDT)

cq -:- If Maharaji won the Lottery -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 11:37:23 (EDT)

__ Cynthia -:- We would never know }( [nt] -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:10:39 (EDT)

__ __ Loaf -:- If he won HE would never notice [nt] -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:36:52 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- One more chapter of 'The Book' -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:48:55 (EDT)

__ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, J-M. Started reading it -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:59:54 (EDT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Yes it's extremely boring BUT -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:30:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ salam -:- Re: Yes it's extremely boring BUT -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:00:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Chelaji on a New Path -:- That's why you were only a temp-guru -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:20:01 (EDT)

Jerry -:- Welcome to Spin City -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:25:05 (EDT)

__ cq -:- And the Spin shall set you free? -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:26:16 (EDT)

__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- SC is greater than Hendrix -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:12:03 (EDT)

__ __ such -:- well, carp are bottom-feeders -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:42:11 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- That's simply a lie -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:13:11 (EDT)

__ gofer boy -:- CT's question -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:09:40 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- My answer to CT -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:29:27 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Could someone post this answer to CT for me? -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:22:13 (EDT)

__ __ Pat:C) -:- That's my pal, Cosmic Traveller -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:12:51 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Could someone post CT's post too? -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:17:36 (EDT)

__ __ gofer boy -:- David Andersen's response to SC -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:17:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ Pat:C) -:- ...and SC's repsonse to CT -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:19:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What a funny guy he is! -:- Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:31:45 (EDT)

__ btdt -:- Re: Welcome to Spin City -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:01:46 (EDT)

__ __ Loco -:- Re: Welcome to Spin City -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:16:53 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Re: Welcome to Spin City -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:29:17 (EDT)

__ __ btdt -:- correction: 'to really see' -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:03:19 (EDT)

__ Levels of Denial and -:- Rationalization heretofor thought UNATTAINABLE! -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 11:26:50 (EDT)

__ Jethro -:- Jerry. absolutely spot on ! -:- Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 11:05:36 (EDT)

Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:36:08 (EDT) From: Bob Email: None To: All Subject: spontaneity Message:

Fortunately the CAC miseries are over for now. What I regret is that these attacks cause a lack of spontaneity on the forum, everybody is more on guard. It has done nothing for cacaraji, exept put serious doubts in the heads of his followers. We need to deal with the sense of vulnerability: I like the forum to be a place like home, where I can meet my friends. We had similar ideals and we were screwed similarly. Sometimes we take action together, we welcome new exes and we share experiences and opinions. It is good that trolls are excluded and deleted. Of course some of them think we are fair game. After all this forum and EPO had a huge impact on the expansion plans of cacaji: The European tour was a near debacle with the press criticism in France, the empty seats in Spain and the rain and mad cows in England. The forced press release about Jagdeo(insulting and incorrect as it was). And now the incriminating activities of the CAC site, hastily withdrawn. We have forced rawat and EV in a defensive position all the time!! This is as much victory as we could expect. It has probably saved hundreds of people from falling into the same trap as we once did. I hope the spontaneity, the intelligence and the creativity will soon get the upper hand over the initial shock of some of us after what happened with caca. These are just desperate attempts of some premies holding on to straws...

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:51:16 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Bob Subject: Thanks Bob Message:

We had such great times on FV but I know that the old-timers also had problems and lived through bad times on all the previous forums. Give it a couple more days and we'll all be having fun here again sharing our experiences.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:38:02 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Ditto Now M. sells Denial retail Message:

thanks for the recap- It is true that Muffinfat and premies are on the defensive. The past months have been rough on exs but also on ev/m. So it is working- good reminder best part is premies are researching and aspirants are making informed choices. The one trap that worked so well in the past . Namely 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' has fundementally changed. No longer is M trying to dispel doubt that meditation is good or bad. He is having to sell DENIAL. He is so out of touch he is still HOPING people doubt the advantages of meditation wrapped in the fancy paper of his 'knowledge'. Marolyn is the one with the key. If she runs a reality check and stops enabling Him - it will all gently come to right. go marolyn Z

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:33:17 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: All Subject: My apologies to Gerry deleted Message:

So you had second thoughts about resigning and deleted your post from F7 but you also deleted my public apology. Perhaps you need a break. However I do think you are being hasty and hotheaded. I will repost my apology and suggestion. This is what Gerry deleted: Gerry, my apologies I don't know why you thought my email was rude. All I said was: ''Turn the IP#s off on F7...NT.'' I emailed you because it seemed that you may not be looking at the forum and had not seen the problem. All of us who were victims of CAC and also others who felt our pain are a bit on edge. But I am hoping that we will all regain our normal strength and composure and continue to provide a venue for ex-premies as well as questioning premies who visit EPO and the forum. If you still feel that you don't want to continue being FA of F7 then I will set up Forum 8 and pay for it. We can continue with hotboards because it is a familiar format. Like you, I will delete spam and block malicious trolls. Since all my skeletons were rattled out of the closet by CAC, I cannot be blackmailed as I have nothing to hide. I did not mean to be rude to you and I apologise if that is the way it came across.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:39:23 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Why are you doing this? Message:

You know what irritated me? Your sending me an NT email, with nothing in the text box. Also, you sent it on the back of an email I sent you five days ago to which you didn't bother to reply. PS it's all yours. That's what you want anyway, right?

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:50:56 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: gerry Subject: Because poeple read you accusing me of rudeness Message:

But did not have the opportunity to see my apology. I'm sorry if my email seemed rude. I grabbed the first email in my inbox as a quick way to email you. I had other stuff to do as well and was in a hurry. The problem had gone on for quite a while and I thought you were not aware of it since Francesca's polite request and Salam's were ignored. It was not my intention to insult you. I am also offering a way out for you if you are feeling upset. The forum needs calmness and stability not temper tantrums. People need to know where they stand and that their posts will not be deleted on a whim.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:30:32 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Now you're pissing me off Message:

I do not remove anyone's post on a 'whim.' I've been very light handed and deleted MY thread and other references to the IP fiasco. That's it, unless you call that troll from Spain a 'person.' And I'm entitled to blow a little smoke from time to time. AS SOON AS I FOUND OUT THERE WAS A PROBLEM I IMMEDIATELY CORRECTED IT. There is no way I was ignoring Salam's or Fran's posts. No way. I had not seen them or I would have acted earlier. I've always been in favor of other people having the forum password and one person has had the password for a couple of weeks. Unfortunately he didn't catch the IP thing either, although he might not feel authorized to act, it would have been welcomed. I provided a smooth and easy transition in a difficult time. Perhaps you or someone else could have done a better job, but I did what I could out of a sense of loyalty and concern. Personally, I don't need this forum anymore.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:59:00 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: gerry Subject: gerry please dont Message:

dear gerry What you have done and are doing here is very much appreciated. Can you two have your fight in private, and please do not move forums again. Whatever happens.. we are healing people here. Loaf

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:58:30 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: gerry Subject: Me having the password Message:

Gerry, I saw the encoded ip addresses and assumed you were looking at someones (probably ****'s) ip address. I didn't try to read one as I didn't want to abuse my access, so I didn't know that the password protection was off. Because of some posters' reactions to me as FA during the final days of F5, I have been very careful not to be seen as FAing in any way on F6 or F7. I have the password for taking archives and that's all. My personal advice on this issue is the same that has been given by other FAs many times, and that is that it will blow over very quickly. You have, as you say, FA'd with the minimum of interference, and I think that is appreciated. People are jumpy in general after the CAC thing, so I wouldn't take anything too seriously. Anyway, rather than just say you want others to have the password, why not advertise for Forum Administrators? You know how people like titles:-) John.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:29:56 (EDT) From: gery Email: None To: JHB Subject: Yes, John, thanks. Message:

I really appreciate what you have written here and want everyone to know that you in no way have abused your confidence. YOU are doing a great job on EPO and we all owe you a debt of (ahem) graditude.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:48:45 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: gerry Subject: Gerry, you and I are not meant to fight Message:

Let's talk about it tomorrow after a good night's sleep. Tonight six of us SF exes are having a little dinner party and hopefully it will make us all feel more relaxed and friendly again. I wish you were here.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:09:41 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: 'Bufus' =term of endearment . Light hearted . [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:50:24 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Zelda Subject: I understand Message:

I took Salam's name calling just fine. It WAS a dumb thing to leave the IP codes on and I HEARTILY APOLGIZE TO ANYONE WHO WAS COMPROMISED OR FELT THEY WERE COMPROMISED AND PARTICULARLY TO SUCH. It was the first time I had the need to go there and although I'm familiar with the works of Hotboard forums, I hadn't had to ID anyone's IP in a while. So shoot me. Seriously, if there is a concensus of NO CONFIDENCE IN MY FA status, I will step aside immediately. If people are OK with it or indifferent, I will carry on.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:25:44 (EDT) From: Voyeur Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: I understand Message:

Gerry, As an occasional poster but constant lurker, I think your FAing has been fine and I hope you continue. With reference to todays flare up I think someone should engage brain before hitting the keyboard

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:17:08 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: I understand Message:

hi gerry since I dont know what an ISP is - I just figured it was some computer thing that someone realized was in the wrong place and they posted on the forum to let sombody know about it. It was obvious to me that the person who needed to know about it was not looking at the forum and it took a while to get straightened out. I know how it can be to have a crisp non personal email arrive! It feels like a little lance . but then I also know that the letters on the screen are souless. If pat was just tossing you some info while he was busy he could have given you a smily face at least. ;) finally, i never can keep track of who is running the show there has been so many changes. But I thought this forum was going fine. Too bad forums cant be sublet if you need a vacation. thank you for your work and lifeboat Z

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 19:15:06 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: I understand Message:

Gerry, You are OK. I think you feel worse that we do about it, so don't kick yourself. It happened. It was corrected. It's over. Bests, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:08:04 (EDT) From: Francesca Email: None To: All Subject: To PEG: your post is gone Message:

Dear Peg, Your post is gone, but you've reminded me why I'm here. I can kibitz with my friends offline, and by private e-mail, but this public discussion has an important purpose. I have met many good people here. THANK YOU. Love, Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:10:54 (EDT) From: eBay Alert Email: None To: All Subject: Blue Aquarius LP For Sale Message:

The description mentions that it looks like the LP was never played. Mint Blue Aquarius. [ Come And Get Yer Blue Aquarius LP ]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:49:02 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: All Subject: Okay, Once again...re: no text... Message:

Will you folks puleeze try to remember to click 'yes' on the no text button? If you're posting within a thread is right there to the left of 'post'. If you're posting a new message, just simply place nt on your subject line. It's starting to bug me. My machine is slow enough....no responses necessary.... That's all Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:26:45 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly Message:

Not knowing how to bring this post up here, I hope ya all will know what I'm talking about. Lady Glasserly brings up an interesting point about the registered agent for the Rawat children's latest venture. Is it possible Maharaji is making money off Vision sales in the same or similar way?

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:57:56 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly Message:

Click here: http://sitelevel.whatUseek.com/query.go?crid=2bd1a44735545585&query=Wahadamar&slice_title=&page=&domain=&exclude=&autocustomize=

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:47:38 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly Message:

Do I have this right? Dunrite has been around since 1988? The premies saw the latest batch of films at the event in Oregon, La and ooood and ahhhhhhed that the kids just started this company to make these marvoulous films. All those links gave me a headache! Geeze, I wish I was smart enough to figure how all these shell corporations link to each other. But here's something I've been wondering about for awhile and I think I'm not far off the mark. All the sophisticated 'participation' services that are available now, it's like applying for a real job. So I get to thinking, the fruits of unpaid premie labor for supposedly EV can be used via data, info, etc for a real company presenting itself to the public which is none other for Maharaji or Wahadamar. Just like Dunrite. Man what a deal! Free premie labor parlayed into profit for M and Ev=M.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:26:44 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: All Subject: re;Lady Charlene Glasserly Message:

Not knowing how to bring this post up here, I hope ya all will know what I'm talking about. Lady Glasserly brings up an interesting point about the registered agent for the Rawat children's latest venture. Is it possible Maharaji is making money off Vision sales in the same or similar way?

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:48:17 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: Cost of the 'conference' for big donators Message:

with Rawat: $9,000 I've just got the info from one of my moles. That doesn't include the trip, and the 'gift', of course !!!!!!!

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:55:26 (EDT) From: michael donner Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Cost of the 'conference' for big donators Message:

what conference? the one in arizona? what is purpose and content? more details please. thanks

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:32:52 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: What? Donations Down? Message:

Nine thousand bucks! Christ, nine thousand bucks!? I am curious to know how many premies have canceled their regular donations to him/EV. Nine thousand bucks. Guess we know who he's targeting for the $$! Maybe he needs a new toy. Maybe he's going to discuss our terrible ''hate club.'' LOL I hope he's shitting his pants. Thanks, J-M, Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:31:47 (EDT) From: MahaMoneyBags Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Wow!!Count Me IN!!(is toe kissing Extra?) Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:59:03 (EDT) From: bob lesch Email: None To: All Subject: deca Message:

this is actually in response to cynthia and gregg. people were all told they were endangering their health due to exposure to toxic chemicals. i know they were because i was the one who continually told them. the people involved - guys all (except one woman named nancy who took a few precautions) all chose to be 'cowboys'. it seemed odd calling 'm' the cient so i started refering to him as the boss - and still do to this day. cynthia - you were not the only one who had trouble working for jim and guy - many of us did. and as for the food - i actually thought it was pretty good. now the issue of sleep - yes indeed - people got stretched. most of it was by there own doing. you see the initail policy was for people to work 6 days, sunday was a complete off day to enjoy the beach or get extra rest or whatever they chose. and we were back at the broadripple fairly early each evening. the guys all pushed themselves past limits of exhaustion - as if they had something to prove. as time progressed - the people who stuck to the original schedule started to be released, or transfered back around the country. there were exceptions. those who had special skills remained no matter their schedule. and when the 'cowboys' stared to burn out, they started to get released as well. now i am not familiar with the workings of the office staff, most of my dealing w/ them were to process po's for my department - 'motor pool'. and i did everything i could to get around office visits after we moved from hialiah to miami. as for health care - i went to a local chiropractor who also practiced keniseology twice a week in the beginning, down to twice/month when i left. lots of others went as well. as far as folks seeking/needing other kinds of care - all i know is that i provided lots of cars to folks going for 'doctor visits'. we were adults! we needed to insure that our needs were being met. yet for some reason, i was constantly reminding people at deca and in the aqshram to take care of themselves.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:37:27 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: bob lesch Subject: Your ''Recollections'' Message:

I don't remember you at all. If you were in charge of the motor pool, I probably did know you but can't place you. As for your remarks about Deca. You have it completely ass backwards. Btw, I didn't have any problems with Guy or Jim. We got along quite well. Hession was very kind to me, as was Guy. It was Maharaji who was the demanding fool. He'd prance into the design room and look at renderings, etc. and say, ''no, do it over, this way.'' Bill said a lot below that I don't need to repeat, but he's got it right. I know this because I was there hearing all of M's demands which were beyond unreasonable. I never got Sundays off, either. And to call the 'mostly male premies' cowboys...who worked night and day to meet guidelines for the Lord, well, that is such an insult to the people who slaved. This was a secret cult slave-labor company and I protected his identity. Don't get me wrong. At the time I was in gopi-ville. I thought I had the best job going. But it was a cult. It was secret. Maharaji gave orders and we followed them to exhaustion, because we thought and believed he was protecting us. Turns out, he didn't give a shit about anyone but his big playground there at the complex. He complained and complained and complained. Were you there at the little Hialeah warehouse satsang when he told everyone that we were not working fast enough, not working up to his standards, and not fulfilling goomraji's agenda? I was there, ten feet away from him. We were gearing up to move to the complex and he said we had to get going. Were you one of those 'cowboys' (the carpenters and ruglayers) who converted the admin. section from a drab warehouse into plush offices in like no more than two weeks? No. you managed the carpool. BFD. Maybe you got health care. I had some wisdom teeth pulled out. The only health care I received was from the doctor at the Broadripple when I started having migraines. He put me on some kind of anti-depressant which made me climb the walls. I took myself off of them. You don't know jack-shit about what really happened at Deca. Motorpool coordinator. BFD. You got Sundays off. We didn't because we couldn't. Your post is very inaccurate. Cynthia P.S. Besides everything else I had to do, I assisted Swan with her special projects (direct agya--whoopeee) which consisted of mostly painting portraits of Shri Maharaji, embroidering his krishna pants with gold thread, making malas for all the programs--this was done after our deca work was done for the day, in our broadripple room. It also meant that I had to drive her around (I didn't mind it at all) but the point is that she didn't drive and we wasted hours looking for do-dads, and gold and silk thread, often getting lost in the bowels of Miami during a time when riots were going on and it was unsafe. And I also cleaned his offices, raked his rugs, and cleaned his toilets! Charanamrit, Yeah, Maharaji was a gem.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:20:09 (EDT) From: RichMandrake Email: None To: bob lesch Subject: DECA, an Acronym for... Message:

D(id) (h)E C(are) A(tall?) Bill, you miss the Point....From what I can hear, Cynthia, Bill and many, many other Premies at DECA (I was not there) worked Extremely Long exhausting hours under conditions that were not optimized for safety and probably at times unsafe. You say that you told premies to 'take care of themselves' while working at DECA. I believe you. But who was the 'BOSS' there? Who was the one that these exhausted Premies were Really listening to..for direction..guidance..and yes..ORDERS? It was none other than MahaRawat. So the question becomes...What was Mahrawat's Guidance? What were MahaRawat's Orders? what were HIS Priorities?..What did HE Care About?.. First and foremost (as I'm sure you'll remember if you try) Back then MahaRawat's clear and direct message to Ashram Premies was that the Purpose of their Life was to Serve and Surrender to the Living Lord (Himself). ( I can elaborate if you wish). Thus any Orders and Direction that MahaRawat gave at DECA were, Im Sure, Given ABSOLUTE Priority by All those Premies Working there. The Question then becomes..what orders did MahaRawat Give those at DECA????...Was It..Make Sure the Premies are Safe..and follow ALL Safety guidelines???....Make Sure they get enough Sleep and eat well and take care of themselves..Because I love and Care for them so Much???... OR Was it..DO This Semi Impossible Task (for My luxury and Convenience) ...No I Changed My Mind..do IT THIS Way....And Have it Done..By YESTERDAY...That is My AGYA to Be Followed Impicitly......and THAT was the Priority and NOTHING ELSE not Premies Safety or Health or Well Being?... I think I know the answer..and I think..if You have the Courage to HONESTLY look at the facts (shocking and disillusioning as they are) you do also, Bill....All the Best..RichMandrake..

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:48:57 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: RichMandrake Subject: Great Acronym, Rich [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 09:57:51 (EDT) From: bill Email: None To: bob lesch Subject: oh that tendency to paint things as if. Message:

THere were no respirators lining the walls collecting dust in the Paint and sanding areas. We were not recklessly thumbing our noses at pesky health reminders. We had gloves and respirators I suppose when we were all asked to work with MEK and wash plane parts and in fact the whole wings at the hanger and also at the complex. I dont recall any catagory such as -adults-. We were devotees and that was that. We had no air fed respirators at the hanger till one day one guy ran out of the hanger doors and took off his resirator and said 'help me' and m happened to be nearby and THEN we got an airfed system. That was long after the 707. If it was your job to handle safety issues at the complex and the hanger, then you were VERY bad at your job and are really out of line dismissing all your lack of proper behaviour as oh what could you do? You cant MAKE people act like adults and be safe. How about the shop where gold plating was done? Call that a safe environment? How about the lack of gloves for all those working directly with chemicals? How about the welding shop? We all got to breathe the air from that as there was no fan system. How about all the people brought in to wash parts with MEK from the helicopter, the hawker sidley, the sanding dust. How possibly do you state that we were not told to work 7 days a week and also nights and that facts are that we ALWAYS had deadlines that could not possibly be met without tremendous effort and time. You are also wrong about the health care. Sure, there was a 100,000 dollar a year insurance, but there was no one coming around telling us about how we could possibly benefit from it. Why does your memory have such enormous gaps? I could type more but I must leave at the moment. Maybe in the office or wherever you worked there was some disconnect from the reality of the work. But if as you claim you were responsible for safety, your disconnect is unforgivable. Let me say something that should have been told to you way back then. You are fired.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:39:55 (EDT) From: bill-just in case, Email: None To: bill Subject: 'I suppose' means we didnt have them. [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:03:44 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: bill Subject: well done, Bill (NT) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:23:24 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: All Subject: How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ... Message:

I will tell you about Satguru, and if you have any questions or doubts in your mind, then you will repel what I have said to you. Yes? Shouldn't we give our devotion to God? What is God? Well, Guru is a personification of God in the Earth, right? I told you yesterday: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? I want that the general should sign some papers. I need not go to his office when he is sitting in my home. Is it necessary to go in his office when his is sitting in my home? When God has come here, then what is the need to give devotion to God there? Why didn't Jesus say -- or does it say in the Bible anywhere -- that He would manifest Himself again? For future generations, so they could have a living God? He has said, He has given you a hint, but you want everything in a perfect state. He has given you a hint -- you don't recognize that hint. In Mark, Chapter 13, he says that One would come after him, not the son, not an agent, not a messenger, but the Father. I think in Srimad Bhagavat Gita, it is written that He will come full, He Himself will come. That first when He came, particularly to some places He saved; but now because He will come to save the whole world, He will Himself come, full. Why so puzzled? It is a very fortunate thing for the people of this age that He Himself, full, will come. Or has come. Yes? Doesn't it say He will come with a shout through the clouds? Not at all. Not at all. I came by airplane! (laughter) When I came there were clouds, many, many clouds.' 'So where are you seeking to give devotion? You have to give devotion if you have some devotion left. Because you just were wasting you devotion into these materialistic things. You are a devotee of your wife sometimes, and wives are devotees of their husbands. Some were devotee of this wealth, some were devotee of this house -- how many things! If you have some devotion left, then give it to the Guru. Guru is that practical thing that can say: 'Okay, come on!' Light has got no hands to use. That's why, because we have got no words to put him in a word, we say, 'Guru is the highest manifestation of God.' Remember, Guru is God. Bigger than God. Bigger and bigger than God. They have said, 'Nobody in this world has been yet born who can describe about Him, who can describe about Him.' 'So, see that if you want to give devotion, give it to Guru. Guru does not deal with us as father or as friend, but as children. As children. Something happens to us; He takes care of that. How many medicines are there in this world? How many medicines has He created? So see, search in God; you will find that Guru is the Supremest of all. It is said that 'In a day I should bow many thousands, thousands, thousands, thousands, millions, millions and millions of times to Satguru.' Such a high thing, such a high power, has come. 'I was seeking for God, but God has come in body! What can be higher and holier than that?' Maharaji, Alta Loma Terrace, Hollywood, California, August 15, 1971. 'Do you need me? I am with you. You can't see me, though I'm the light that allows you too see me. You can't hear me though I talk through your voice. You can't feel me, though I'm the power that works in your hands. I'm working within you though you ignore my paths. I'm working though you don't recognize my work. I'm not a strange vision. I'm not a mystery - only in absolute silence beyond the personality that you seem to be; and then only like a feeling and like faith. Still I'm with you, still I hear you, still I can answer you. When you need me, I'm with you and I help you. In the moments in which you think you only find yourself, I'm with you. Even in your fears. Even in your pain, even when you meditate and when you don't meditate. I'm within you and you're within me. Only in your mind are the problems of 'mine' and 'yours', but still only with your mind you can know and perceive me. Empty your heart of ignorant fears because apart from your personality, in between, I will be with you. By yourself, you cannot do anything, but I can do everything. Though you cannot see the good - The good is there. Because I am there, because I have to be, because I am everything. Only in me the world has meaning. Only when you are in me, the world will take it's true shape. Only because I am the law, in which rests the movement of the stars and the growth of each living cell. I am the love that is the fulfillment of the law; I am safety; I am your peace; I am everything. Though you fail finding me, I never fail finding you. Though your faith in me is insecure, my faith in you never vanishes. Though you give your faith and love senselessly to others, My love is only for you, because I know you, because I love you.' (Maharaji, Speaking to IDP Group - February, 1982) 'Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion? Guru Maharaj Ji knows all. Guru Maharaji is Brahma (creator). Guru Maharaji is Vishnu (Operator). Guru Maharjai is Shiva (Destroyer of illusion and ego). And above all, Guru Mahraji is the Supremest Lord in person before us. I have come so powerful. I have come for the world. Whenever the great come,the worldly oppose them. Again I have come and you are not listening. Every ear should hear that the saviour of humanity has come. There should be no chance for anyone to say that they haven't heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. Those who have come to me are already saved. Now its your duty to save others. Shout it on the streets. Why be shy? When human beings forget the religion of humanity, the Supreme Lord incarnates. He takes a body and comes on this earth ......' (quoted in the book 'Who is Guru Maharaji?')

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:24:25 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: cq Subject: Yep,how M claimed to be God! Message:

'I told you yesterday: Who is Guru? The highest manifestation of God is Guru. So when Guru is here, God is here, to whom will you give your devotion?' - miragey

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:24:47 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ... Message:

Thank you for finding all this. It is what haunts me to this day. Evidently, all those years thinking I wasn't 'surrendered' enough I was actually too surreneder, too opened, because these words went to the core of my being. They are still there. How long does it take to get separated from these words that were etched on our trusting souls?

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:35:28 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: btdt Subject: Oh, yes, that imprint on our souls Message:

Hi BTDT, any thanks should go first to the people (I know Jean-Michel's one of them) who typed up these quotes and put them on ex-premie.org, which is now a huge resource of info and quotes about the Maha. Me? I just forwarded the info. But as to your post. Oh boy. You ask 'How long does it take to get separated from these words that were etched on our trusting souls?' Hmmmm, ... how long is history? Aye, there's the rub. It's all very well for M's spin-doctors to bleat 'move on; that was then; this is now' but for those of us who, in the early days, really took M's message to heart, the scar it leaves is not so easily forgotten. M's denial of responsibility in all this can be summed up in two words: pathetic and repulsive. In fact, if there's one thing that marks him out in the history of the mass-manipulation of people's minds, it's the fact that he somehow got many thousands of people to believe that he was the one of whom it was said in the Bible 'And a little child shall lead them' and yet he's the same one who now allows EV to publish a disclaimer to the effect that he never promoted himself as the Messiah. Well, I'll say this to the Maha (and you'll have to excuse my French): You fucking well DID. And it's about time you owned up to how much damage you did in the process. To think that you, Maharaji, still have the audacity to deceive impressionable minds into thinking you're some kind of 'Master'. - Well, shame on you for denying your past, yet still attempting to 'have your cake and eat it'. Let history have the last bitter laugh at your pretentions of divinity, MahaRaji, you King of Beggars. sheesh ... and I thought I was over this ...

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:31:00 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: cq Subject: Re: Oh, yes, that imprint on our souls Message:

Thank cq. That was a deliciously refreshing blast of truth. That;s the way to deal with it btdt. Get it out of your system. Wash that man right out of your hair and send him on his way. Even if it means cussing him out or poking fun at him. Whatever it takes to get rid of that feeling of having been lied to manipulated and raped.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:24:47 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: How M 'never' claimed to be God, part 97 ... Message:

Hi btdt, I know how you feel. It takes time to re-wire the circuits of my though processes. When I think of the uncountable hours that I listened to satsang, listened to tapes, read his satsang, and ate it up whole, I have to give myself a pat on the back and say ''Well, done, Cynthia, you've come a long way out of that black hole of a cult.'' It does take time and patience. Lots of stuff still pops up. I loved Maharaji so much and believed everything he said. He's a liar and a conman. An actor. A charlatan. A fraud. He is bad, you are good, btdt. If you need to use affirmations to reclaim yourself from his terrible programming, use them. Everytime you catch yourself thinking about him or feeling ill when those thoughts feel entrenched in your mind and heart. Just say NO MAHARAJI, YOU LIED. Get angry. Shoot darts at a picture of him if you still have one (and can stomach putting one up. Take pictures of him and scribble all over it. Get out the anger safely. It's healthy. Work on forgiving yourself for being dooped into the cult. It is so amazing to me now that I actually joined that (or any) cult--it's very unlike the real me to have been sucked in. When I read on this board I am in awe of the intelligence of exes. When I think about it, Maharaji really wasted us on his hindu juju. I still cannot bring myself to do meditation (err, excuse me, practice):) So I don't, because it's intrinsically connected to m for me and gives me the ickypoos. Everyone's exiting experience is different. No time schedule. There's no mix and stir method of existing this Maharajism cult. Maharaji certainly wasn't the panacea to life and now I am happy without him. Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 04:13:28 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: All Subject: Fringe premies, church ladies, fanatical cultists Message:

Jim asked the other day if there were only two types of premies in the context of the way they interact with exes here. There are those who don't discuss but simply disagree and resort to evasions, illogical rationalizations and outright lies. Then there are those who seem to listen to reason. I tend to agree that there are broadly two types who post on cult-related forums: the good, honest and sincere guys either kick the gurujism habit or argue for a while and then disappear; and then there are the bad guys who seem to be maliciously opportunistic, cynical and dishonest. If the good guys begin to see that Rev Rawat fits into the latter category of evil, cynical guys, they will leave. The bad guys know Rawat's dirty game and concur with him in his anti-social and immoral ways - but they are not rotten to the core and they are eaten up with the mental contortions and game-playing that they have to resort to in order to maintain their belief system unless they are real sociopaths and there definitely seem to be a few of those around - witness the anti-ex websites and a few nasty trolls who post here. There at least two good guy premies who post on LG. Neither of them are cynical cult apologists. One of them I know personally. He believes in being honest and having a social conscience. I may not agree with his Hinduism but we live in SF and here we all agree to disagree and live and let live. We have to. There are too many conflicting minority groups here. You learn to judge a person by his character not his beliefs or politics or race or sexual orientation. This premie is very much a typical fringe premie and was out of the cult for 15 years before I turned him back onto K about 4 years ago. (Yes, mea culpa.) But he disliked EV even more than I did and would not get involved with ''synchronized participation'' in the cult. His Hinduism is politically incorrect and an embarrassment to the church ladies who have ''evolved'' along with M. I don't know the other good guy premie on LG personally but have figured out that he knows he has to remain honest because of his 12 step program. It does not work if you compromise the truth, live dishonestly or tell lies. I sometimes have thought that the reason why he is a decent guy is because of AA. He was addicted for many years despite having M and K. I wish he would entertain the possibilty that his life was turned around and is great because of his own efforts. He also has a slightly politically incorrect belief system about M and K but seems to be a bit more of a church lady than the first guy. But church ladies don't often post on these forums. Some have tried but given up. Most of the church ladies that I know are also pretty uninvolved in the cult and are married, middle-aged, middle-class people who do the whole particiapation thing because they love the M that they see on TV and as a speck on a stage a few times a year and they enjoy K. To them it is a nice comfortable new age religion. Last year, when I went back into the cult for a while, I met up with some old premie friends whom I had not seen in years and found that most of them were much like they were 17 years ago when I last saw them except to me it was now obvious that they had always been church ladies and were comfortable with a religion of waterfall and guru videos. The same guys did all the work like AV stuff. The same ones donated all the money. The same nuns of both genders were instructors. But I also met a few new premies whom I had not known before because I used to be a fringe premie. Now I had returned as real cash cow church lady and suddenly I was moving in higher cult circles than I had ever moved before. These were the fanatical cultists. Suave, rich, cynical, selfish, cold, calculating. I knew some of their faces from the 80s. These were the guys who wore designer clothes to M events and gossiped with Charnanand and sat in the front seats because of connections or big donations. Most of them don't actually do ''synchronized participation.'' They leave that to the church ladies who don't have big bucks. The guys who did the dirty work of setting up the anti-ex websites did it to impress these A-list premies because they are A-list wannabes. M is the topdog in the dog eat dog world of the cult and he draws up the A-list. (Pia was probably a sincere church lady who was cynically exploited by this bunch.) The other dozen or so premies posting on the cult forums who toe the party line and spout the revisionist cult propaganda are not all bad or nuts or even A-list wannabes but the few who are leave such a bad taste in my mouth that I find it hard to listen to ANY cult apologists even the few sincere church ladies who stray in and leave quickly. Sorry guys, but it's hard to hear about how M and K have ''evolved'' and that it isn't any of our business that he ''made a few mistakes which weren't really mistakes but a learning process and he really has got everything sorted out etc.'' If you make arguments in favor of the cult it means that you think that Mr Rawat's flexible (I'll be kind) treatment of the plain truth is not an unethical pack of lies. The only reason that I can think of why people would think the cult is okay is because they are fringe premies who are so uninvolved that they don't know what's going on or they are so involved that they have something to lose. The only other possibility is that they are such lonely social misfits that the greatest thing going for them is the whole sterile and weird culture of ''propagation training seminars'' and futile ''synchronized participation'' which can never achieve any semblance of human warmth and naturalness because it has had all the spontaneity and democratic enthusiasm crushed out of it by the dogma that ''M must first approve of it.'' M and K may just be a joke and a game to these guys but to me he was the master without whom I could not ever go home and whose purity I should never doubt. When you realize that that is not the case and that the whole game is just a nudge-nudge/wink-wink joke then you feel soiled, dirty and fucked in the ass without vaseline. You feel used, raped and deceived. Fanatical cultists of course cannot see this because their social identities and status and sense of self-worth and the very purpose of their lives are inextricably linked with M. They are desperate to protect that and will not hesitate to stoop to any form of intimidation. Rev Rawat is THE topdog fanatacal cultist. Sure he's in it for the money but he is also very likely just as deluded by gurujism. Well, he also likes the pomp, power and adulation - that's probably what he is addicted to more than the money or the religion. Fanatical cultists share in his sense of superiority and importance. The delusions of having the True Knowledge and knowing the meaning and purpose of life are heady drugs not easily kicked. So, the church ladies don't post on the forums. The good guy premies seem mostly to be mavericks who aren't rich and may be muddle-headed but are sincere. Usually they are too boring and cliche-ridden to engage in an interested conversation. The mischief-makers, cacweasels and cult apologists are either oily A-list cynics or their wannabe imitators. I don't understand these people and have never liked them and take no pleasure in speaking to them as they make me feel dirty.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:15:49 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: r.e. LG premies Message:

Except for 2-3 bad apples, there are also some nice premies at LG. I mean, only a lil more than a year ago, but for da grace of Allah, it coulda been some of us posting as diehard phelgms over there. 'The only reason that I can think of why people would think the cult is okay is because they are fringe premies who are so uninvolved that they don't know what's going on or they are so involved that they have something to lose. The only other possibility is that they are such lonely social misfits that the greatest thing going for them is the whole sterile and weird culture of ''propagation training seminars'' and futile ''synchronized participation''...' Righto. Also, da patently feeble 'premie logic' is an auxi-moron (aka oxymoron). [because dat brain has been ritually denigrated to auxiliary or demonic status by da maha's Hindu trad incultcation]. breathing + using one's brain is really good -- for anyone. For premies, however, looking at the cult situation honestly and objectively is difficult, because of the mental conditioning and blinders effect; for dem, 'denial' is like a river in Egypt. feeling that breath, that Brain, that healthy holistic bliss -- hohoho

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:20:06 (EDT) From: Toette Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: You hit the ail o the head! nt Message:

t

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:47:15 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Toette Subject: Did you have an n-dectomy, Tonette? Message:

But your missing 'Ns'' provided cute typos: ''Toette.'' Is that a footkisser? LOL! And hitting the ''ail'' on the head? Yep getting out of the cult is good for what ails you.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 12:09:39 (EDT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: premiespotting Message:

Thanks, Pat. As one who never looked back until this forum appeared, I am very appreciative of updates like yours. EV truly is a different colored horse than DLM. Back in the late seventies, there were lots and lots of us lumpenproletariat premies: guru-worshipping foot soldiers a million miles from the Malibu mansion, with no hope of getting close to M outside of a darshan line. Absence made the heart grow fonder: we were able to keep our rosy-glasses image of the Lord unsullied by real info. Now, there is too much real info available, and it takes a real act of desperate will to maintain a belief in God made Flesh (or, at least, flesh manifesting Spirit). Your report on the dynamics of the twenty-first century version of Premieman made for some very interesting reading to one who will always be interested in the outcome of that very strange phenomenon of which we were once a part.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:10:18 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Gregg Subject: PWKs are not premies, Gregg Message:

I loved being a premie - just hated being a PWK. Aren't you glad you got out early?

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:10:36 (EDT) From: BTDT Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: YES!!! Message:

Another vote for 'Best of the Forum' ! Well done. This has been a good week. Much intelligence MANIFESTING around these here parts. You know, a person can watch and see this stuff but not understand what the hell is going on because it just doesn't jive with what we were steeped in for years and years and years. Maharaji's world was supposed to be 'for the weary and the weak', instead it's a corporate nightmare on acid. How does it last? One word......'surrender'. Catchy little word, that one. Surrender when you're being abused by premies, surrender when Maharaji makes no logical sense whatsoever, surrender when you learn yes indeed it's possible to buy a good seat at an event, surrender when you learn the lord of the universe drinks, smokes, has affairs, doesn't give a rat's ass about child molestation, surrender when you are badgered for money, surrender when you are guilt tripped and whipped into telling everyone you know there is this possibility (choke) of knowledge, surrender when the EV'ers use you and then make fun of you for speaking the truth and never apologize when they use your ideas, surrender when the lord of the universe who told you he was the lord of the universe tells you it's your fault for calling him the lord of the universe. What is the matter with you people around here, anywhere? Just surrrender! You'll feeeeeeeeeeeeeel better.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:08:15 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: BTDT Subject: Now I want to hear your story, btdt [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:58:23 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: BTDT Subject: Pat and BTDT...both Excellente! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 08:38:56 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: great, Pat Message:

Goddammit, Pat. You nailed down a whole truckload of 2x4's there. That shit is magazine ready. Best layout of modern fatboy toekissing culture I've seen so far. I felt like I was watching a two hour movie repleat with Pattie Hearst as a greying official of EV and Mark Wahlberg playing a younger version of Michael Nouri. You really captured the smell of the bathroom after the church ladies (male and female) made messy-poos. Eiuwwwwwwwwwwe!

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 06:02:55 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: EXCELLENT PAT ! Message:

what a great post. The social structure and tensions within elan vital are anaesthetised and supressed by practice, holiness and desperation. It is refreshing to see the WHOLE THING INCLUDING MAHARAJI AND KNOWLEDGE as a social construct - its so useful for everyone to seriously QUESTION whether the patterns of belief set up in maharaji's childhood are really doing us any favours now. No matter how synchronised and corporate the animal.. somewhere deep inside there is someone who knows better. Something deep inside us all knew Maharaji's poetry was attrocious - and yet we trusted him and went along for the ride. Trust is a key issue here - beacause it BINDS and BLINDS people to structures of thought which are not their own.. and to promote Trust as a FEELING, without ever supplying something to Trust.. is a very strong delusional tool How can people in this subjective state see what is going on around them ? In Nazi Germany, decent, sincere people got caught up in something, which had they had the chance to stand away from, they would have seen it for what it was. THEREFORE the SUBJECTIVITY of 'Knowledge' is doing the Premies no favours at all. Next time you get a chance .. even at an event or more importantly at participation meetings or Trainings..Stand back.. Think, see and feel a whole different set of responses above and beyond the pavlovian conditioned ones of 'gratitude' and deep peace. Knowledge is no big deal.. and it wont bring peace to the world. Sorry chaps. Its purely HIS TRIP you are playing with here.. and he doesnt love you. Never did. He is drunk on his own feelings... addicted to status. Its not a good way to be. Where do you want to go today ? Loaf

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:07:42 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this Message:

I was out of premiedom for 17 years and when I went back last year I was stunned by the revisionism. During those 17 years I kept in touch with some premies but they were fringies like me. What I would like to hear is the stories of those of you who hung in there throughout the ''evolution.'' How did the revisionism just creep in? I can imagine that the loyal church ladies just swallowed whatever came down the EV pipeline and were told by the A-list premies that ''this is what M wants - he wants you to hand in all your old pics of darshan and any printed or taped mention of him saying he is god etc.'' I was not around during the bookburning period and had a lot of old politically incorrect stuff. Now I can kick myself for getting rid of it when I left 8 months ago. Anyway I would love to hear the stories of those of you who hung in there for the past 20 years.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:22:59 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Re: Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this Message:

revisionism started around 1983/4.. although in truth the seeds of it began when he had his hairs cut in 1980. The ashram closure was put accross to us new premies in 1983 as a 'new beginning' - and then in 1985 darshan was queitly dropped. I was at an event in miami in '85 when he got shirty about people asking him to dance again.. and I think a lot of it had to do with his pilot status and corporate executive mindset, surrounded by advisors and 'suits'. He dropped the Guru around this time.. and the second j - and even contemplated using Prem Rawat for speaking engagements.. and gradually we were asked to stop speaking.. satsang was abolished and videos and 'authorised speakers' were provided to toe the party line. In birmingham 1985 he showed a film he had put together.. it was called 'evolution' - and really that whole period addressed the issues of letting go of the past, but sticking with him and not gettting left behind I was around instructor conferences in the late 80s and was aware of a lot of very unhappy 'hippie' premies who had not made the transition to 'events' from 'festivals' and who didnt like the new style of things. He started hosting dinners where we all gawped and ate.. black tie... and gradually the social tone of elan vital changed, from a free for all, to an exclusive, controlled, sleek, corporate function. The ones who got left behind were generally those who did menial service or none at all.. most ambitious career premies found some niche.. there were endless meetings..and so the absence of nightly satsang and all the community feel was gradually replaced with a Regan/Thatcherite yuppyism - and those who didnt buy into it were to some great extent left floundering. By the early 90s M had quite simply re-invented himself.. and anyone calling him Guru Maharaj Ji was clearly marked as someone who wasnt in touch..and therefore a bongo or a potential security issue at events. Security gradually became 'steward' - and events were controlled - more importantly we controlled ourselves.. the 'in crowd' were up to speed with M's terminology and view of himself and his work and the way he wanted to be perceived, but if you weren't.. then you needed tuning or bringing into the fold. The whole tone at this time was 'this is maharaji's game, not ours, and we must play it his way.. its his knowledge, his event, his video... etc etc' Written publications ceased in 1982 (in the west.. India was always different).. and music tapes became 'non-explicit' such as Oasis of Love and Fire in my heart etc which did not name him. Indian terms and hindu trappings were frowned upon.. huge pictures of him were discouraged, altars dismantled, and arti trays relegated to catching crumbs under toasters. Ashrams and premie houses split up.. (DIVIDE and CONQUOR)and when premies did come together, it was very much on his terms. I hope that gives a flavour of the 80s...knowledge lite years. It was gradual really - I didnt realise how far things had changed until sometime in the 90s I listened to an old tape (from which we were dicouraged) and it sruck me how 'explicit' maharaji was pre 1984 - after which he changed his tone to an expansive, inclusive, non specific slant on life.. and he did not address the issuees of community and master and devotion to him other than to say 'it is an individual connection between him and you'. This divide and conquer tactic effectively stopped us thinking or talking amongst ourselves, to have said that you thought things were better int he old days would have been heresy - but moreso it would have made a fool out of yourself.. to criticise maharaji was to doubt him... thats enough for now Loafie

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:22:11 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Re: Thanks, guys. Now could you answer this Message:

Man, that really brought back some memories for me. I was living in L.A. when nightly satsang was discontinued at the Loyola Theatre. I think it was '82 and satsang was moved to the ashrams in Westwood, Westchester, Van Nuys and Santa Monica. It was a tiresome juggling act to get satsang every night. I was no longer friends with any premies. I'd moved from Honolulu to Miami in '79, and to L.A. in '80. I wasn't aware of it at the time but the reason I'd left Honolulu was to escape the subtle oppression I'd boxed myself in with. I had developed a character who played a role; the premie who was devoted. I couldn't stand it any longer but I was conflicted between what I saw as duty and the freedom I wanted. I kept going to satsang in Santa Monica. It was held only twice a week. Because I wasn't really friends with anyone, I had no idea of the changes that were happening. All I knew was that I felt abandoned when satsang was scaled down. A few months later, or maybe a year later, I remember there was no more satsang at the ashrams, and I remember vaguely hearing they'd closed (or something). But not being 'connected', the impact didn't really hit. The only satsang available then was in a small stuffy conference room at a hotel in Santa Monica, and you had to call an answering machine to find out when it was held. It was 'introductory' satsang so it was absolute pablum. It was also very bad satsang, and I know you all remember that. Fingernails on a blackboard. I remember going to one of those fancy dinners, probably around '85. The whole thing was absolutely dumb, and it was one of the most awkward evenings I'd ever had. By the time I left L.A. in '86, it had become so boring, I rarely went to satsang. I'd see maharaji once or twice a year, in Long Beach or downtown L.A. The whole thing had lost its soul and I was just hanging in by a thread. When I moved to New Mexico, Satsang was once a week, I think. It was also pretty bad satsang, and now there were part time initiators. Up until that point I had looked up to initiators and thought they had at least earned their stripes. The woman in Albuquerque who was an instructor was completely faking it. It was like Dubya Bush being president. One time I asked her for a ride to a little intro program being held in Santa Fe, and she tried so hard to weasel out of it, but I wouldn't let it go and she begrudgingly took me in her little Toyota. It was so obvious I'd upset her little Barbie-doll version of being a princess initiator. The final straw, the very last drip was in '91 or '92 when I went to San Francisco to see maharaji, and all the seats were taken in the auditorium. Some drone premies ushered us into a conference room to see a video feed. The whole thing was so lifeless, and it was so easy to just quietly drift away from my involvement. I remember seeing maharaji for the last time in '93 or '94, again in San Francisco. I took some friends and this time I saw it through their eyes. All I can say is I was embarrassed.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 15:52:31 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Many thanks Loafie Message:

Of course I'd like to hear more.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:45:12 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Me, too...More, please Message:

I had been away during the revisionist years and when I went back for a short time no one would tell me anything about how the transitions took place nor how they felt about them. It's all in Maharaji's plan is the answer I'd always get.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:50:05 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: All Subject: So! Maybe M did use the forum eh? Message:

Hi all! Fran reminded me the other day that my post a ways back wasn't to far off after all! The Cac attack comenced, and surely it was due to all the info and babling back n forth around this place. I specificly said that M would find a way to use this forum against you. Look whats happened in the last month eh? I'm not trying to rub nothing in, but sometimes I feel like anybody who posts, who was not a premie before isn't taken seriously at all....just my feel on the scene is all! Anyhow, maybe I'll hang around for a bit. La la la la lala la.....

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 02:46:15 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Barry Subject: THIS COULD BE MY FIRST 'FLAME' !! Message:

Barry.. taking someone seriously is all well and good - but when you post adolescent rubbish like this.. I wonder if it even merits a response. Francesca seems to credit you with some intelligence, but I suspect she is a diplomatic soul. What do you want ? Why are you here ? Do you feel that as an 'outsider' you have a special point of view ? well.. if you do, let us see it. You seem like a friendly and delightful teenager. All the best.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 18:04:49 (EDT) From: Zelda Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Oh Loaf...!! We are all misty. Cngrats!! [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:29:07 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Re: Just call me Bobby Brady! Message:

Sorry ya feel that way.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:14:06 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Barry Subject: How are you Barry?? Message:

How are you doing guy? You seem to have had quite a few ups and downs these past few months. Hope it hasn't affected your blood pressure too much. Got any new friends, not anybody in particular, but perhaps new, like somebody who was angry at you, but isn't anymore? Somebody you've been doin stuff with and the like? Just wondered.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:21:10 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Joe Subject: Also... Message:

Been to any good 'events?' Did they let you sit up close and everything? Seen any celebrities? Did you get to talk to them? How is your diet? Getting enough sleep? Getting enough exercise? Have you tried zinc tablets and bee pollen? Does soy do anything for you? How are your cats? What are their names? Any of them named Chucky Cheese or maybe Borsh? Good names. I have a Dalmatian named Nigel. He's a good guy, but getting on in years. Dalmatians shed a lot you know, sometimes you have to look real hard to see what's causing that. You have to look into it very, very carefully, so you know, you know, why he's shedding so much and what you might do about it, and sometimes that's expensive, but I'm committed to do it and it' worth every penny, because you have to find out, I say. Sometimes you have to call in experts, even. But he's doing fine. Doesn't like cats, though. It's a real problem sometimes.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:50:40 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, I think this Jim's friend, not Bazza [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:59:36 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: gerry Subject: Isn't Bazza Jim's friend? Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:04:58 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Joe Subject: This is Barry Clarke, Jim's friend Message:

Joe, that Barry is Barry Clarke, Jim's musician friend from Canada. He's at http://acousticoutlaw.tripod.com/page2.htm By the way, some of his tunes are great!!! I just downloaded It's Only Furniture and Cowboy Angels yesterday. He had said a while back on the Forum that he thought we were showing too many of our cards, and that M would use all our good work on the forum against us. He was trying to be supportive of Deb, who was starting to get Forum involvement overload. I thought he was wrong. Turned out it was very prophetic indeed. He's never been a premie. All he knows about it comes from what's he's read and heard. Francesca

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:37:46 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: Hi Francesca and HI Barry you troublemaker ;) Message:

Barry, How ya doing? I love your music by the way, encourage others to give it a listen. When are coming to Victoria, I'm looking forward to meeting you? Francesca did Barry give you a link to the free CD? Lots of good tunes. I've been busy lately, how about you?

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:12:28 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: Deborah Subject: Re: Hi Francesca and HI Barry you troublemaker ;) Message:

Hey Deb! I'm fine. I don't know why I did it? I guess if you look at Joe's post at the very bottom ( the 1 I posted Blind Joe to), well his reply sez it all. Vain, unforgivable, ego-driven back door runaway reply if you ask me. Don't know when I'm comen home. Soon me hopes! E mail me for some chit chat OK? Thanks for the support on the music. I'm in the middle of producing my 2nd CD, so I'm just trying to get interest up again to the 1st one. later Deb.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 03:01:50 (EDT) From: Thanks Fran Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: But keep ya day job Barry Message:

best ta lern howta play de guitar before commiting to CD mate. makes a great 'ex-premie' soundtrack though, miserable as fuck!

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:22:42 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: Thanks Fran Subject: Yo! Joe Satriani Message:

What-ever! If you love Eddie Vanhalen, well woop de doo! I like simplistic guitar-so what! Lets hear your CD Joe Satriani. Miserable? Guitar rock is miserable buddy!

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:09:26 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: Re: This is Barry Clarke, Jim's friend Message:

Thanks Gerry and Francesca. I don't understand this idea that 'M used the Forum against us.' Really, the website has been immeasurably more damaging to him that it could ever be to us. Plus, I think I've gotten a lot more out of looking at that whole period of my life again. It's been very helpful in a number of ways.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:25:55 (EDT) From: Barry Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Blind Joe! Message:

Oh how convieniant for you!

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:42:10 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: All Subject: Why the Maharaji Cult is a Cult...Reprise Message:

A woman who does counseling for ex-cult members, Jan Groenwald, and who has worked a lot with Dr. Margaret Singer, has come up with a 'universal definition' of a cult, and a list of cult characteristics. I picked 14 of them, that I think apply to the Maharaji cult quite clearly. Note that they do not include Jonestown or Heaven's Gate-style weirdness. Elan Vital and premies have been saying basically that unless a cult is a prison that engages in mass suicide, it's not a cult, and since premies don't do that, what's the problem? A cult does not have to imprison people or hound them daily for compliance to be a cult. No, a cult is really quite other than that. It really has to do with changing your thought processes, in changing the way you process information. Here is Groenwald's analysis: Basic Definition: CULT - Any group which has a pyramid type authoritarian leadership structure with all teaching and guidance coming from the person/persons at the top. The group will claim to be the only way to God; Nirvana; Paradise; Ultimate Reality; Full Potential, Way to Happiness etc, and will use thought reform or mind control techniques to gain control and keep their members. The Maharaji cult fits this 'universal' definition, obvously. The 'mind control' techniques (discouraging doubt, not allowing criticism of 'the master,' demonization and ostracizing people who leave and criticize, fear of what happens if you leave, etc., are all discussed below.) Cult Characteristics: 1. Their leader may claim a special, exclusive ministry, revelation or position of authority given by God. Yes, obviously. In Maharaji's case he has stressed that there is only ONE Perfect Master, and that he was 'chosen' by his father, the previous one, to be PM. Sat Pal, does, however, disagree. 2. They believe they are the only true church/having the one true belief/experience/access to the ultimate. Yes, although in the Premies' case, it's the one, true 'experience' that you can only get from Maharaji and no place else. 3. They use intimidation or psychological manipulation to keep members loyal to their ranks. This could be in the form of threats of dire calamity sent by God if they leave; certain death at Armageddon; being shunned by their family and friends etc. This is a vital part of the mind control process. In the past, Maharaji said that tons of vegetables would rot inside you, and that you would smash into a thousand pieces if you left him and knowledge, and I personally heard him say we would go to hell if we weren't devoted to HIM. I think now it's more subtle, but the basic fear is that life will be meaningless and miserable is the premie left M and K. I think the social, peer pressure, is also still there. AND Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group. Same as above, and another major reason people don't leave. Also, I think this is why there is sometimes such a huge divide between premies and ex-premies. I think premies have a hard time even conceiving that ex-premies could possibly be happy without Maharaji and knowledge. The mindset is so great, that they almost can't fathom it, and so they have to do what Charles Glasser does, they have to say we are nuts, on drugs, or just like to 'hate.' 4. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group’s perspective, people who leave are: 'weak,' 'undisciplined,' 'unspiritual,' 'worldly'; 'brainwashed by family, counselors'; seduced by money, sex, rock and roll. We have all heard variations of this from premies, like Charles Glasser, Pia Grunbaum, etc. When will I get the sex and rock & roll? That's what I want to know. AND Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family. Ditto. 5. Any time you say anything negative about the group, whether justified or no, it is regarded as 'persecution'. Any criticism of the individual is also seen as persecution only because they are the 'true Christian' or 'enlightened' one - not because they, as an individual, have done the wrong thing. However, at the same time they will feel free to criticise whatever you believe, say and do because they are 'the only ones who are right'. Man, have we seen this lately in spades or WHAT!!! Glasser, CAC, Elan Vital, all claim that THEY are being attacked and victimized by ex-premies. It is truly amazing that premies or Maharaji would claim persecution by ex-premies, with no proof whatsoever by the way, to the point of going on a crusade about it, but we have heard it enough that they meet this characteristic of a cult in spades. .6. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate With rare exceptions, absolutely yes. The very hardest thing for a premie to do is to criticize Maharaji, and if they do, they are probably on their way out or the cult. This is a TRUE test of cult programming. Ask a premie to say something critical of Maharaji. Anything. Watch the squirming and discomfort. This is the litmus test for me. 7. Members will be expected to give substantial financial support to the group. This could be compulsory tithing; signing over all their property on entering the group; coercive methods of instilling guilt on those who have not contributed; selling magazines, flowers or other goods for the group as part of their 'ministry'. I think this was much more blatant in the past in the Maharaji cult than it is now. It certainly was the case when I was a premie, including tithing, turning over assets, and selling flowers on the streets. But it seems to be more subtle now, although the pressure to donate is definitely still there, including Maharaji saying that 'participation' enhances your 'experience.' I understand that people like Yoram Weiss have made a carrier out of harrassing and guilt-tripping premies into donating to Maharaji, personally. But in any event, every premie knows there is a strong undercurrent of fundraising constantly going on in the cult, even though the results in regard to propagation, never seem to materialize. But since premies can't criticize Maharaji, they also can't complain about how their donations are being spent. And, of course, how they are being spent is kept secret from them at all times. AND Any dissent or questioning of the group's teachings or the leader are discouraged. Criticism in any form is seen as rebellion. There will be an emphasis on authority, unquestioning obedience and submission. This is vigilantly maintained. Obviously very true, and always has been. Again, it is almost impossible to get a PWK to criticize Maharaji in the slightest, so programmed and fearful they are. 9. members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of propagating, performing certain humiliating rituals, going long distances for cult meetings, et.' Going long distances with no money was always a test to get to festivals and seen that way, and I think it still is, and so was propagating (bringing in 'new people'). Is darshan a humiliating ritual? I sure think so, and it's going on currently. If a premie decided NOT to go through darshan, how would he or she feel? 10. Information is not freely accessible No kidding. That's why this website gets more traffic than Maharaji's. It's because you can actually get information here, and Maharaji and his cult are so secretive, so paranoid of telling their own members anything, I guess for fear an ex-premie might get it, that they treat their members like idiots as if they couldn't be trusted with actual information. information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid Always true, and still is. Leadership decides who 'needs to know' what Sound familiar all you Elan Vital people? 11. Cults make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s. This is basically the essence of the Maharaji cult. It's a cult of attribution, like I mentioned in the Bob Mishler quote below. All good is due to M, all bad is due to YOURSELF. Since M and K are beyond question, it must be the premie himself or herself, although it does appear there is a group within the cult that is willing to criticize the 'organization,' keeping the ridiculous illusion that Maharaji isn't in complete charge. 12. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda such as Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc. You betcha, not to mention Satellite Feeds, trinkets and wrist watches with cult sayings on them. 13. Adopt 'loaded' language (characterized by 'thought-terminating clichés'). Words are the tools we use to think with. These 'special' words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous 'buzz words'. This is so fucking true of the Maharaji cult, it's amazing. Note how 'loaded' these words are in the Maharaji cult: mind, heart, knowledge, master, that love, that peace, that experience, that gift, thirst, fulfillment, and many more too numerous to mention. They all become loaded words that lose their ordinary meaning, and Maharaji and the premies speak them to each other with a nod and wink they only THEY understand what the hell they mean. Total garbage. 14. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down 'reality testing' by stopping 'negative' thoughts and allowing only 'good' thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism. When Maharaji commanded us to meditate 24 hours a day, this was delinitely true, but I think this still exists, either as the 'holy name' technique, or just repression. Hey, guess what? It's a cult.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:28:58 (EDT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Joe Subject: A test for exes only: Message:

Read through those very apt litmus questions for cults AS IF YOU WERE THE PREMIE YOU ONCE WERE. It's very interesting, at least it was for me, to note the self-righteous cult-think that informs one's internal rebuttals. And incredible, too, always, for me, to note how, in the grips of a cult, I was able to believe I was in a non-denominational self-discovery group that had nothing in comon with the Krishnas or the Moonies.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:48:24 (EDT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Joe Subject: Re: Why the Maharaji Cult is a Cult...Reprise Message:

I found a site owned by Jan Groenveld. This is a very nice site. Here's the text from the home page: A goldfish living in a bowl that is painted black on the outside will never know it lives in a bowl unless someone takes it out and shows it the rest of the world. Mindsets can be like that - locked into a `thinking box', unable to see outside because the web of beliefs is so all-encompassing How can this happen to people like you and me? Have you ever bought an outfit that didn't fit properly because the sales person convinced you it looked nice? Ever have someone talk you into having another drink when you didn't want one? Ever run into a clever con artist who had a good line? Ever sign a contract you didn't really want to sign? Getting involved with a cultic group could be just that easy? (If you still think it can't happen to you take our test on the General Information page [grin] In the USA alone there are an estimated 5,000 cults actively recruiting people of all ages, from all walks of life, at the rate of tens of thousands of new recruits every year. Australia is not far behind. Like most other countries, we tend to import them as soon as they develop. We hope this site will help you to learn how to establish criteria for defining a cult, how to recognize cultic and spiritually abusive behaviors, and how to guard against unwanted psychological persuasion - the techniques used by cults and spiritually abusive groups to recruit and retain their members (and unethical salespersons.). In light of this analogy of the goldfish living in a bowl painted black, some good slightly off-topic postings on this forum will probably do more good than harm in showing pwk's who might peek in that there's more to life and to theology than the twisted, ever-changing perspectives of the delusionary, manipulative Maharaji. Here's one of the characteristic of cults from Jan Groenwald's site: Attempts to leave or reveal embarrassing facts about the group may be met with threats. Some may have taken oaths of loyalty that involve their lives or have signed a “covenant” and feel threatened by this. Refugees of the group are usually faced with confrontations by other members with coercion to get them to return to the group. Maybe some old-timers see free speech as threatening to the survival of the cult and therefore to their salvation. CAC is what I'm thinking about. This is not nice stuff but 'honesty is the best policy'. The whole thing is sordid and desparately needs as much bright light and fresh air as possible. Steve [ Jan Groenveld's Site ]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:50:57 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Steve Quint Subject: Good stuff, Steve... Message:

I get a lot from reading some of the anti-cult sites. It's not only interesting (there are so many out there in all shapes and sizes) but educational and validating to me. I remember the explanations from years ago that Maharajism isn't a cult. I ate those explanations whole. I simply knew I wasn't in a cult, because I was made to believe that Maharaji was the Lord, the superior power in person. We were different from all those ''cults'' like moonies and krishna folks. I could explain it all away very easily. Thanks for the link. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 10:28:41 (EDT) From: Steve Quint Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com To: Cynthia Subject: These Ex-Premie Sites Are The Bests Message:

I know that some pwk's criticize these ex-premie sites for being negative. The facts are: 1. When Person A been following Person B who has virtually claimed to be God and to offer salvation, and then something happens to make Person A seriously question those beliefs, Person A owes it to themself to figure out what happened, ESPECIALLY when many years of their life have been dedicated to Person B. And if there are many such Person A's, it's natural to try and help each other reach the truth. So what we're doing in these ex-premie sites is THE MOST NATURAL THING IN THE WORLD. Thanks for the feedback, Cynthia. Love, Steve

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:04:07 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Why the Maharaji Cult is a Cult...Reprise Message:

9. members are required to demonstrate their loyalty to the group in some way. This could be in the form of propagating, performing certain humiliating rituals, going long distances for cult meetings, etc.' We could prove the applicability of these check points forever but just one thing about this one. When Maharaji decided to pump up the religion again in '77 he did all those '19 day' programs, so-called because of their spacing. They were all over the states and Maharaji specifically, openly and completely undeniably boasted that they were a test for 'Mr. Mind'. He wanted us to reaffirm that our jobs and personal lives meant nothing. If our worldly boss fired us, fine, let him. The idea was that we knew who our real boss was.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 17:52:08 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Why the Maharaji Cult is a Cult...Reprise Message:

Those 19-day programs and the many that followed were a huge financial blunder. Sure, maharaji was the boss, the master, and Mr. Topcat, but he blew an opportunity to get all that money that went to the airlines and the hotels for himself. It makes me think his ego is, or was, more important to him than money. Maybe he got the kind of rush that rock stars get from performing live; all the adoration and attention.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:05:27 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Rick Subject: Yeah, but Message:

One of the big motivators behind the 'master' is to get his devotees to show continually more dedication and proof of their devotion. So all those programs might have used up a lot of money, but for some of those people, they served to demonstrate their devotion to Maharaji, and probably made them feel more connected to him, partly as punishment for the sins of 1976 when we had the gall to think for ourselves a little bit, and maybe not think of Maharaji as God quite as much. I know for me, 1977 was launching pad into the next six years of the darkest period of the cult, with the more self-hate, and Maharaji's demands for more demonstrations of devotions than ever before. It was kind of a nightmare, a nightmare with a fat guy, with flabby breasts, dancing around in bizarre outfits. A real nightmare.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:37:39 (EDT) From: Rick Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Yeah, but Message:

Definitely a nightmare. I beat myself up a lot for not meditating enough, not doing enough service, not 'staying on the word', chit-chatting too much... And the premies always passed around disapproving looks or totally phony smiles. But the fat guy was a lousy businessman. A good businessman always has his eye on the dollar. Retribution, punishment, and principles don't stand for much. Shit, I'm a lousy businessman... I coulda been a guru.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:22:52 (EDT) From: Bob Lesch (posted by JHB) Email: None To: All Subject: Ashram/Techniques Message:

[Bob sent this to the EPO Webmaster mailbox. He has given me permission to post it, and has promised to respond if anyone has any issues with his point of view - JHB] having been asked to become a member of the ashram in 1977 and staying until they were closed in the states in 1983, i think i have a valid 'point of view'. there was no 'ill-preparedness' when we all left at the end. in fact, everyone i still have contact with, lives and has lived, far above the poverty line from the first day of their 're-integration' back into the mainstream. where else did young men and women get a chance to live w/o the stress of worldly expectations while pursuing spiritual goals? nowhere i know of. who among us was physically abused? no one i know of. who among us left w/ financial debts or physical ailments? no one i know of. granted, it was not a place for the weak, or weak of heart. but if you go back and try to jog your memory of that time in your life, i do not think you'll find you were forced to do anything against your will. in fact, i was always encouraged to follow my heart and was never asked to compromise my own integrity. as far as the techniques that maharaji teaches are concerned - there are many people who 'missed the boat'. and i'd like to explain why i believe that. i come from a different perspective than most people. i received the techniques 28 years ago and have practiced them on an average of 5-6 times /week for .5 - 2.0 hrs each session over that period of time. in that same time frame i have been a student and practitioner of alternative medicine including many asian disciplines including shiatsu and acupuncture. there is no healing technique that i have encountered as effective or efficient as maharaji's techiques. aside from the aspect of 'spiritual enlightenment', the healing aspects on a purely physical level are incomparable to any healing techniques currenty known in the medical community, both in terms of ease of use and overall effectiveness. there is nothing false or misleading about the practice of the techniques. in fact, it is my beleif that maharaji has always understated the power and value of practicing the techniques. now i'll admit that i have not always agreed w/ every i was told to do in 'service to maharaji'. i encountered a lots of egotistical fools who tried to convince me to do things that went 'against my grain'. i did get reprimanded for not following the party line. so what! i got transfered all over the country for being headstrong as a 'punishment'. i looked at it as a great way to see the country and learn a new skill. was that a hardship? so i have to say - thanx! because i know that some of the people responsible for this site had a hand in sending me around the country and contributed in some way to the wealth of knowledge and experiences i have accumulated. all in all - i'd have to say that these 28 years have been nothing short of wonderful. wishing you all the best in life, bob lesch

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:40:38 (EDT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Bob Lesch - posted by JHB Subject: Re:Techniques Message:

Bob: I have heard dozens of tales of abused ashram residents and DECA workers. How can you discount them? I, like you, joined the ashram in 1977 (well, Jan. 1978.) I do not regret the experience, or the previous 3 years experience w/ M. I left a year later. However, I can't believe that you think M's techniques are that fantastic. I have to assume you believe this due to your faith in M. I have experimented with many meditations more efficacious and especially more well-explained than M's. Sure, the 4 techniques work, but they are nothing special, compared to the wealth of spiritual wisdom that has come to the Western world in the last few decades. I have to assume that the Lotus Feet reign supreme in your spiritual experience. Right?

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:10:02 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Bob Lesch - posted by JHB Subject: Re: Ashram/Techniques Message:

I'd like to respond to a few of your comments: Who among us left w/financial debts or physical ailments? I did not have any financial debts because I moved out of the ashram before they were closed, however I know several people who were left with a heavy burden of debt as a result of the shutdown. Who among us was physically abused? First, there are the children who were sexually abused by Jagdeo. That heinous type of physical abuse caused long-term emotional harm to the victims. Second, Maharaji himself abused his powerful status as Lord, when he solicited sex from female premies and threw them away like so much trash to him. That's also physical abuse, as well as intense emotional abuse. No refuting it. It's a fact. Those countless ashram premies who were working at the Deca (Broadripple, other hotels) ashrams, were without question taxed physically and emotionall beyond imagination. I was there for a year working directly under Jim Hession and Guy Rollins in the Design Dept. Hession was the 707 project director and Rollins, who was in charge of the Design Dept., was my boss. Maharaji came to our office everyday, several times a day and made impossible, often ridiculous demands upon us. I started to physically and emotionally break down. As the 707 project was coming to an end, premies were so burnt out it's now impossible to calculate how much damage Maharaji did to these premies. Exposure to many toxic chemicals, along with 24 to 72 hour stretches of working on coffee and cold fatty food served in styofoam was not exactly good for us. I developed chronic migraine headaches from lack of good food and sleep. I don't know of many people who had the time to meditate because we were so tired, but I and many others tried. I do not think you'll find you were forced to do anything against your will I was, as were many at the Deca project. The fact that it was a hidden, secret company with no OSHA liability coverage, no legal standing as a bona fide employer speaks to that. Everyone there had to lie about Maharaji's identity. His name was never spoken. He was always called ''the Client.'' Whenever an outside vendor had to come, say to repair a photocopier (which we needed IMMEDIATELY for M's requests) I'd have to make an excuse to get them out of the building. At the hangar, everyone had to lie to the FAA inspectors about the identity of the 707 owner (which was really a company, but we all know was actually M). For a week I had to fill in for someone at the hangar. Every rivet, bolt, EVERYTHING that was done to that aircraft had to be documented and signed off by the FAA. The volume of paperwork was immense. I hated it there. As I stated above, at the large complex, many, many people were exposed without proper protection to many toxic, lethal chemicals--all for the benefit of M. He never seemed to worry about it. I know people who have had longterm affects because of that exposure. In addition, because the project was always stretched to it's limits financially, and M or whoever in charge didn't want to buy the Boeing specficiations, we broke the law. A premie who worked at Boeing smuggled volumes of photocopied documents, and I mean boxes and boxes, which were flown to Miami for Maharaji. I'm sure that he knew this was going on because he requested them, and he later placed that premie in the initiator program, i.e., after all the illegal smuggling was done and she came to Miami. I received those documents personally, and it was my job to prepare them for Maharaji's use. All these things are definitely and without question, being asked to compromise my integrity and safety as a so-called free citizen. I did it because I though M was the Lord, immune from criminal activity, which, of course, I believe covered me, too. As far as the techniques that maharaji teaches are concerned - there are many people who 'missed the boat'. Before I received knowledge in Jan. 1976, I became an aspirant in August of '75. It wasn't long before I ''knew'' I wanted knowledge. I was sucked in big time. For months, in preparation for meditation, minimum 1 hour in the am and also an hour in the evening, I sat on the floor, crosslegged, either listening to tapes or reading Maharaji's satsang from one of the magazines. After I received knowledge I was a faithful meditator. Every day, twice per day, and trying to remember the 'word' during the day. Once I was in the ashram, I did even more meditation. I went to satsang every day. I got up to sing arti and I wasn't the first one to rush out of the meditation room. After I was finished at Deca because I got so sick, I meditated for many, many hours every day, until, of course, I was forced to go to work after a couple of months. You see, I had more earning power than most other ashram premies. I've heard that expression ''missing the boat'' a lot lately from premies. With all respect, I know many premies who were faithful to their knowledge and ashram vows, despite what the spin is now. While I was in the cult, I made a decision to surrender everything to M. As a result, I still to this day, experience the physical affects of my experience being a premie in Maharaji's ashram. I hope this explains things... Sincerely, Cynthia J. Gracie

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 17:12:59 (EDT) From: Deborah Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Ashram/Techniques Message:

Hi Cynthia, I can't believe this guy comes over and tries to revise the situation with the claim that we were all adults shit. We were all cultists who happened to be the same age as adults. Yes, lots of secrecy around the hangar. Their was a time when one of the Boeing airplanes collapsed from the support and went through the body of the plane. A whole team of Boeing technicians were working along side the premies. Some of them actually found out WHO the client was and figured out the cult. I mean, in retrospect, it was weird. A tonne of premies would come in for volunteer and do anything they were told. The Boeing employees would ask people what their job was and the service crew would blissfully reply that they didn't work, they were volunteering. Didn't add up to non-cult workers. And when the Client did show up, you'd think the President of United States was arriving. All the security and stuff. Everyone running around like crazy and no one able to concentrate on tasks at hand. I'm sure the BigHead loved the attention from non-premies as well. I was asked to photocopy a manual at the Hangar and told it is was illegal and keep it low key. Kind of difficult though, the manual took me at least 40 hours to photocopy. But at the time, it seemed like play, how could it not, we were silly little guru groupies.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 05:36:00 (EDT) From: RichMandrake Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Great Post Cynthia!!**BEST OF** Message:

Thank you,Cynthia, for Communicating so Passionately and Eloquently your Experience in those 'Lord of the Universe' years....All the Best...RichMandrake

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:37:47 (EDT) From: ggg Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: Ashram/Techniques Message:

Hi there Just a little note on your viewpoint. Abused on an emotional level is effectively bad for a child too. My daughter aged 6, watched and screamed and cried while the premies in the premie house we lived in dragged me off to satsang every night. And I had to hear her crying her eyes out and be told that she would be all right. I trusted that she was I thought we were all nice people. Looking back, it took her twenty years for her to tell me how she felt about it, not until I left the cult could she even begin to tell me, she has suffered from her mother putting the cult first in her life. She has not forgiven me for many things that happened to her in that house. Forced to eat things she didn't like, being with people that she didn't like, not having her mother to herself. In her young mind she was treated badly. We are still trying to put the damage right today. Don't tell me everything was fine and dandy for everyone, please. ggg

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:19:22 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: *****BEST OF***** Message:

I'd like to respond to a few of your comments: Who among us left w/financial debts or physical ailments? I did not have any financial debts because I moved out of the ashram before they were closed, however I know several people who were left with a heavy burden of debt as a result of the shutdown. Who among us was physically abused? First, there are the children who were sexually abused by Jagdeo. That heinous type of physical abuse caused long-term emotional harm to the victims. Second, Maharaji himself abused his powerful status as Lord, when he solicited sex from female premies and threw them away like so much trash to him. That's also physical abuse, as well as intense emotional abuse. No refuting it. It's a fact. Those countless ashram premies who were working at the Deca (Broadripple, other hotels) ashrams, were without question taxed physically and emotionall beyond imagination. I was there for a year working directly under Jim Hession and Guy Rollins in the Design Dept. Hession was the 707 project director and Rollins, who was in charge of the Design Dept., was my boss. Maharaji came to our office everyday, several times a day and made impossible, often ridiculous demands upon us. I started to physically and emotionally break down. As the 707 project was coming to an end, premies were so burnt out it's now impossible to calculate how much damage Maharaji did to these premies. Exposure to many toxic chemicals, along with 24 to 72 hour stretches of working on coffee and cold fatty food served in styofoam was not exactly good for us. I developed chronic migraine headaches from lack of good food and sleep. I don't know of many people who had the time to meditate because we were so tired, but I and many others tried. I do not think you'll find you were forced to do anything against your will I was, as were many at the Deca project. The fact that it was a hidden, secret company with no OSHA liability coverage, no legal standing as a bona fide employer speaks to that. Everyone there had to lie about Maharaji's identity. His name was never spoken. He was always called ''the Client.'' Whenever an outside vendor had to come, say to repair a photocopier (which we needed IMMEDIATELY for M's requests) I'd have to make an excuse to get them out of the building. At the hangar, everyone had to lie to the FAA inspectors about the identity of the 707 owner (which was really a company, but we all know was actually M). For a week I had to fill in for someone at the hangar. Every rivet, bolt, EVERYTHING that was done to that aircraft had to be documented and signed off by the FAA. The volume of paperwork was immense. I hated it there. As I stated above, at the large complex, many, many people were exposed without proper protection to many toxic, lethal chemicals--all for the benefit of M. He never seemed to worry about it. I know people who have had longterm affects because of that exposure. In addition, because the project was always stretched to it's limits financially, and M or whoever in charge didn't want to buy the Boeing specficiations, we broke the law. A premie who worked at Boeing smuggled volumes of photocopied documents, and I mean boxes and boxes, which were flown to Miami for Maharaji. I'm sure that he knew this was going on because he requested them, and he later placed that premie in the initiator program, i.e., after all the illegal smuggling was done and she came to Miami. I received those documents personally, and it was my job to prepare them for Maharaji's use. All these things are definitely and without question, being asked to compromise my integrity and safety as a so-called free citizen. I did it because I though M was the Lord, immune from criminal activity, which, of course, I believe covered me, too. As far as the techniques that maharaji teaches are concerned - there are many people who 'missed the boat'. Before I received knowledge in Jan. 1976, I became an aspirant in August of '75. It wasn't long before I ''knew'' I wanted knowledge. I was sucked in big time. For months, in preparation for meditation, minimum 1 hour in the am and also an hour in the evening, I sat on the floor, crosslegged, either listening to tapes or reading Maharaji's satsang from one of the magazines. After I received knowledge I was a faithful meditator. Every day, twice per day, and trying to remember the 'word' during the day. Once I was in the ashram, I did even more meditation. I went to satsang every day. I got up to sing arti and I wasn't the first one to rush out of the meditation room. After I was finished at Deca because I got so sick, I meditated for many, many hours every day, until, of course, I was forced to go to work after a couple of months. You see, I had more earning power than most other ashram premies. I've heard that expression ''missing the boat'' a lot lately from premies. With all respect, I know many premies who were faithful to their knowledge and ashram vows, despite what the spin is now. While I was in the cult, I made a decision to surrender everything to M. As a result, I still to this day, experience the physical affects of my experience being a premie in Maharaji's ashram. I hope this explains things... Sincerely, Cynthia J. Gracie --- Great post Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:44:10 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: gerry Subject: Thanks, Gerry... [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 17:31:40 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Bob Lesch - posted by JHB Subject: Re: Ashram/Techniques Message:

Thanks Bob, for the thoughtful post. And thanks also for agreeing to discuss this with people who take the time to address what you are saying. First, regarding the ashrams, I lived in Maharaji's ashrams from 1974 until 1983. I left a few months before all the ashrams were closed, later in 1983. So, I lived there a long time. So, my point of view is 'valid' as well. I do not pretend to say that ever minute in the ashram was a drag. It wasn't. But much of that time I hated the ashram, mostly the poverty and the celibacy, the lack of privacy, but I think you have to agree, that during that period Maharaji was clearly viewed as a Supreme Being, who knew what was best for us, and leaving the ashram would have been a demonstration of extreme lack of faith in him. Moreoever, Maharaji held ashram meetings in which he denigrated those who might think about leaving the ashram, and the initiators did the same thing, parroting what he had said. So while, you had "free will" to leave, that's very misleading. To be in the ashram for 10 years, my 20s basically, I obviously wasn't doing anything else, like getting an education, a career, and relationship and a family, and all the things people do in their 20s. So, for Maharaji and Elan Vital to now claim that they were never intended to be a life-long committment, that they were just temporary, 'experiments' or that they were to protect us from drugs or something is quite offensive, and, in fact, lies. Since my dedication in the ashram was to Maharaji, it is appalling that he would lie about it now. You said: there was no 'ill-preparedness' when we all left at the end. in fact, everyone i still have contact with, lives and has lived, far above the poverty line from the first day of their 're-integration' back into the mainstream. While being above the poverty line is laudable, I know for me, in my 30s I had to basically start over on a career, because most of us in the ashram worked menial jobs, and were often transferred or given jobs in the cult so that we couldn't keep jobs for very long. So, I don't think I was below the poverty line, but I don't think it helped my living standard to have lived in the ashram. And of course, Maharaji gave us no asistence, serverence or anything like it when we left to get started on our own, despite the fact that he has millions and lives like a king. I also know people who, after the ashrams closed, didn't fare too well, either financially or psychologically, and Maharaji did absolutely nothing to help with the transition, and even stuck the ashram premies with the ashram debts. It was pretty disgusting and there are quite a number of people who are pretty angry about it. Mostly, it's Maharaji's uncarring attitude towards us as people that makes people the most angry. who among us was physically abused? no one i know of. While there are some examples of physical and sexual abuse, and also examples of premies who were permanently injured ffrom their "service," I agree that this wasn't wide-spread, but I think psychological abuse was rampant, both by mahatmas and initiators, and the most extreme, David Smith, who engaged in wholesale psychological abuse of the ashram premies in a couple of the ashrams I lived in. He was a very sadistic person, and having access to people who were vulnerable in the ashrams, he preyed on them. Anyone who was in the San Francisco ashram in 1981, for example, will testify to this. The ashram was a situation that put people in vulnerable situations to anyone with an abusive personality or illness. Since they were trying to completely surrender their lives to Maharaji, the ashram premies were vulnerable to him and to the 'powers that be' like David Smith, who were operating on his behalf, and with his instructions. But since Maharaji never even knew who we were, let alone grave a rats ass about us, there was no actual protection. Some ashram premies were injured working at DECA, for example, in 'service' and that's another example. who among us left w/ financial debts or physical ailments? no one i know of I know one ashram premie, now an ex-premie, who, when the Montreal ashram closed, they had to divide up the debt, and she was stuck with $20,000 in ashram debt and took years to pay it off. G, who posts here sometimes, said when the Washington DC ashram closed, he got stuck with about $5,000 in debt, just him personally. I guess I was lucky that I left before anyone knew the ashrams were closing, and although I just left with my clothes, I at least had a job and no debt, although I soon was in debt, just to get an apartment, etc. So I think you might be lucky you didn't get stuck with a debt, but I think people have a good reason to be upset with the fact that Maharaji first lambasted people for thinking of moving out of the ashrams, talked about them as life-long commitments so that people trashed their lives for 10 years to live there, and then just dumped the ashram premies with no explanation when he felt like it. Oh, yeah, and then he blamed US for the ashrams not 'working.' It's pretty reprehensible. Regarding the techniques, I'm glad you find them positive and helpful, and I think that's great. I don't deny that some people find them something they want to continue to do. I think the problem is when people think Maharaji has something to do with the experience they are having, or the fact that meditation might have health benefits and the like. Nothing wrong with meditation, it's the belief system, that Maharaji is connected to it in some way that is the problem. Gee, Bob, I recall your name, but I don't know if I ever lived in the same community with you. I hope I didn't do anything awful to you when I was an Elan Vital bureaucrat. Joe Whalen

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:29:58 (EDT) From: Mirror at the End of the Road Email: None To: Bob Lesch - posted by JHB Subject: Re: Ashram/Techniques Message:

Dear Bob: Thank you for your thoughts on early life with Maharaji. Although I don't fully agree with your assessments, I won't indulge myself in a full rebuttal. There are two points which I will address. You say: 1. who among us was physically abused? no one i know of. There have been several posters on the forum who were sexually molested by Mahatma Jagdeo. I assume that that falls into 'physically' abused. Also, many premies performed excessive service to their physical/mental detriment, being pushed and pushing themselves into ill health to prove their devotion. That counts for both emotional and physical abuse in my book. 2. who among us left w/ financial debts or physical ailments? no one i know of. I was a treasurer of a community and when it was disbanded, I, personally was left with a large debt. There were quite a few pleas for financial assistance at community meetings, with minimal donations, and I was left with the lion's (and I mean LION) share of the debt to repay personally. I also knew an ashram premie who was asked to leave the ashram when it became known that he had a long-term and incurable illness. Pleas on his behalf to help him make the transtion were denied. So, although you personally may not have known people who were entangled in the examples you mentioned, it does not mean that they did not occur. One of the recurring phenomena that I've noticed with people in cults, and premies in particular, is the notion that if something was not directly experienced, then it doesn't exist. That type of solipsistic thinking belongs to people in their 20s, but sadly seems to represent the current mindset of many premies. More exists out there in the world than just *I*. Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:41:38 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Mirror at the End of the Road Subject: Ashram debt Message:

When I was transferred to the ashram in the San Francisco California Bay Area in 1980, there was a brother in the community (who shall go unnamed, I don't wish to mention people's names who don't participate here). He had come to the Bay Area to live in that community (outside of the ashram) after an ashram in Sacramento, California had closed. Before moving in the ashram he had some personal debt, but had the money to pay all the debts off before he moved in the ashram, which was supposed to be required. (However, as ashram coordinator and house coordinator and treasurer over the years, I can tell you that many an overzealous devotional-thinking instructor saddled the ashrams with people's personal debts from time to time.) The Sacramento ashram did not have sufficient funds to go to a program. They told this brother to move into the ashram WITH his debts, give the ashram the money so that some of the ashram residents could go to the program, and then his debts would be absorbed by the ashram. The ashram closed, and he was stuck with his debts. Francesca

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:31:51 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: Re: Ashram debt Message:

This isn't entirely the whole story and it is far from factional. Believe me, I know. This guy caused a lot of turmoil and defimation of character.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:09:01 (EDT) From: Unconscious Email: None To: btdt Subject: Sorry, I misunderstood ... Message:

I thought someone was criticizing your post and I was tired. It's terrible what some people will do in the name of 'holiness'. All the best to you!

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:33:17 (EDT) From: 'factonal'= Email: None To: btdt Subject: fiction+fact Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 00:13:42 (EDT) From: Your subconsious ... Email: None To: 'factonal'= Subject: Re: 'factonal' [sic] Message:

with the 'tone' of being 'factual'

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:30:11 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Your subconsious ... Subject: Re: 'factonal' [sic] Message:

Actually it was a typo but boy did it bring up a lot of stuff I thought I'd forgotten about. This guy did a lot of damage to a lot of people all in the name of climbing the premie ladder to the sky.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 17:21:02 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: Fran...I was nearly tranferred to SF in 1980... Message:

I'm going to reply to the above post, but I wanted to tell you that when they (DLM-Miami) were considering where to transfer me, the two options were Gainesville and San Francisco! I, unfortunately, was sent to Gainesville.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:38:10 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: We coulda been roomies! Message:

Well, we're making up for lost time! Love, Francesca

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 22:18:30 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Francesca :C) Subject: Re: We coulda been roomies! Message:

I know, roomies! But wasn't David Smith there in the 80's? That really would have sent me off the deep end. I still, for the life of me, cannot remember David Smith's face. I know I've seen him, but it's a real block. Good, I guess, eh? Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:19:46 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Heir David Schmitz Message:

Smith was in charge of the 'Western Region' of the US from about 1981 on. Before that, he had been in England, and freaked so many people out there that they finally sent him back. I remember he showed up in Miami, and was supposed to rest because he acted like he had had a nervous breakdown in the UK. But he started being weird right away, messing with people, and I told him to cut it out. He didn't like that. Then, I had the misfortune of meeting up with him again in San Francsico where I got sent toward the end of 1980. Smith absolutely terrorized the ashram premies, and actually was pretty weird to the community premies too. He was about the most uptight person I ever met. He just ozzed paranoia and repression. A very weird person. But, apparently Maharaji liked him and put in in charge of all of us. But all the social climbers in the ashram, mostly women who shall not be named, some of whom are now still in Elan Vital, including on the Board of Directors and being bureaucratic flaks, kissed Smith's ass so much it was nauseating. I fought with Smith tooth and nail and he finally backed down, but he is one screwed up, robotic, cult-crazed, totally programmed, jihad-ite for Maharaji. I haven't talked to him in years, but, according to Jim who has, he acts like he has had a lobotomy, totally flat personality. San Francisco was a great premie community because it was so non-conformist. I think it was the Haight influence and all. It was the opposite of Washington DC which was very organized and together. The premies in San Francisco where just too independent, for much organization. I guess that's why there was never much propagation in San Francisco, and still isn't. There is nothing happening here, except for the few church ladies that Pat talks about. Smith comes here sometimes still, I am told, and I've always wanted to show up and ask if he remembers me, and then report him to the war crimes tribunal.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:44:42 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Joe Subject: Re: Heir David Schmitz Message:

Well, he was still acting pretty much the way you described at the last Santa Monica program. Some of us watched him go balistic over the lady who had the coffee cart outside the hall doors. She had received knowledge eons ago and dropped out of the whole scene. Fast forward twenty years and Maharagi literally ends up where she works. Of course everyone was talking to her, thinking this was the best lila in the world and how special she must be to have the Lord come to her, she was laughing and said 'Who knew my past would come back to bite me in the arse (sp).' She wanted to go in, have a look around at his pix, etc to see what he was like now, and then attend the program. As it was a pwk writstband event only, Smith saw her and went ballistic, literally throwing her out. She was stunned and had a few things to say about the security people. Someone tried to explain who she was to Smith and all he could bark was 'Stay out of it.' Well, they didn't and Charanand said that yes she could go in, she could get the magic wristband. Smith eyed all this and eventually tried to cough out an apology but it was too late. She related to the premies but he ruined it. So maybe, for her, it was her lucky day to be accosted by Smith cuz she folded up her cart and left, never going in the hall. The premies who watched this whole scenario were appalled.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:12:31 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: Heir David Schmitz Message:

Well. I guess Gainesville was the better choice, although I still to this day have never been to the west coast. I was a renegade premie at Gainesville and was made Asst. Community Coordinator, which, in essence, meant that I did all the work, and the Community Coord. a guy named Randy something, got all the credit, etc. Smith sounds like a complete and total asshole, not to mention rage-a-holic. He must think he's almost a god-in-a-bod.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 16:37:13 (EDT) From: Francesca :C) Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: He comes short of foaming at the mouth Message:

Not a pretty sight. Once you don't take him seriously -- meek as a lamb. He has no power if you don't buy into his place in the cult. It is funny that by the time I was ready to tell all the instructors who laid into premies (including me) off, right before I moved out of the ashram, the situation never presented itself. Things like that happen for a reason. I would have verbally taken their heads off, because I didn't think they were anyone important. In fact, they were living off our charity and should have been a bit more thankful. I remember one night when the instructors were in our kitchen, talking loud and running a blender. Someone asked them to stop so that people could sleep, and Smith told them off. He had one ashram meeting at Galewood Circle in San Francisco where he was yelling at us and trying to turn us into spineless 'I am not worthy types.' Telling us we all didn't deserve to live in URUG's ashram. Telling us we were pathetic. Making fun of the fact that we sat on the floor and meditated and dragged our pathetic little meditation blankets through the house. He said they were full of hairs and stuff from the floor like horse blankets. And then he started neighing at us! It was great. I wish I had it on tape. By then I thought he was full of baloney and wasn't amused. It was worthy of the Kissimmee rants of the Drunken Master. 'Suck the rat, it's full of Coca Cola.' Mmm hmm. Tasty, lord, tasty. Francesca

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:54:59 (EDT) From: Joe Email: None To: All Subject: This was the crux of the cult for me.... Message:

Bob Mishler has some great analysis in his interview. I think the following really sums up the plight of a premie (at least it was the plight of ME as a premie), and what is so potentially damaging about it. It was also why I had such an incredible feeling of relief when I got out of the cult. I have always said that the Maharaji cult is a cult of attribution. You just learn to attribute nice experiences to Maharaji, and bad experiences to yourself, or others. That's basically it. If you don't do that, you, like the vast majority of people who receive knowledge, split. If you do that, you get glued into Maharaji in a way that is sometimes very difficult to break, and you can go on for your whole life living in that mindset. Premies can really be having an 'experience' because of the depth of their beliefs and they may feel they get benefits from that (I know I did), and their associations with other sincerely believing people, but the key point is to understand that Maharaji has nothing do to with the experience they are having. Unfortunately, you have to get OUT of the cult and OUT of the belief system before you can even see what's going on. That's why ex-premies speak of having that 'aha' experience once they break that programming. Here is Misher's quote, every bit as true today as it was when he said it in 1979: The problem is when you see people taking such a toll upon themselves, because the nature of their belief is such that when anything goes right in their lives, well, that's the grace of Guru Maharaj Ji. When anything goes wrong, well, that's themselves. That's their minds. So they are kind of in a bind, where anything that's beneficial they have to credit to the guru, and anything that's bad, well, they know that they're just not trying hard enough. So a lot of them have a great deal of difficulty. They are very hard put-upon

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:19:41 (EDT) From: suchabanana Email: None To: Joe Subject: such an incredible feeling of relief [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:34:38 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: All Subject: an interesting link Message:

maybe the cacas can add it to their 'database', next time they go one line http://www.tolerance.org/hate_internet/index.jsp

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:17:28 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: All Subject: A Request and Question... Message:

Could everyone please use the 'n/t' function when posting only in the subject line? It's easy. Also, what the f**k is this post below? Thanks, Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:32:25 (EDT) From: Richard Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Also use the edit feature Message:

There is a very good 'edit this message' feature with which to change all parts of your message. It appears at the bottom of every post but is only editable by the originator of that post. No need for those tedious 'Oops I f*****d up' correction re-posts, just edit the original, save and the changes are done.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:19:17 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Richard Subject: Edit won't work for me Message:

Funny, but when I try to 'save' my corrections (not that I ever make mistakes, of course) it never works. Instead, the program just triggers some sort of download function and I end up getting an error message. I'd love to be able to fix my mistakes (the ones I don't make, I mean) but can't. Anyone?

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:31:47 (EDT) From: JHB Email: None To: Jim Subject: You're being slowly blocked Message:

Gerry is blocking you slowly, taking away facilities one by one. Next you won't be able to post the letter 'z', afterwards, the question mark will be out of bounds. You may have noticed that use of the phrase 'fuck you' is already off limits. Towards the end your posts will consist only of the letters e,m,i,a, and l, and the space character. John who has just tried to edit the subject of Bob Lesch's post above and can change it in the message but not in the message list.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 18:13:37 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: JHB Subject: Jim... Message:

As I understand it, if you leave the site and come back, you can no longer edit your posts. Maybe that's what's happening...I dunno...it's computer shit and I'm a computer dummy, sort of.. Cynth

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:38:09 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Richard Subject: I use the edit all the time... Message:

I am compulsive about typos and missing words, etc. It really works quite well.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:23:33 (EDT) From: Forum janitor Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: Re: A Request and Question... Message:

It's spam from that idiot from spain, you-know-who, the guy who posts one liners. I've a little more cleaning to do so I'll leave this up and your post for a while before I delete it. Is that ok with you?

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:30:29 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Forum janitor Subject: Sure...do your thing:) [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 12:32:04 (EDT) From: **** Email: None To: All Subject: ??? Message:

???

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:11:40 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: **** Subject: Re: ??? Message:

****?

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 15:17:42 (EDT) From: silvia Email: None To: salam Subject: What K does to people Message:

&^%^$*&**# them up!

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:33:37 (EDT) From: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Email: None To: salam Subject: 0 M&K = :> Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 11:37:23 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: All Subject: If Maharaji won the Lottery Message:

Question: If Maharaji won the Lottery, wouldn't he have a problem with the begging letters? Answer: No, he'd still keep on sending them. ;)

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:10:39 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: cq Subject: We would never know }( [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 14:36:52 (EDT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: If he won HE would never notice [nt] Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:48:55 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: One more chapter of 'The Book' Message:

online. Page 84-111Merger Of The Finite Into Eternal - Observations Made by Shri Paramhansa Dayal Ji Lots of 'satsang' and sermons, but some interesting stuff. [ More on Shiv Dayal ]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:59:54 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Thanks, J-M. Started reading it Message:

I am not sure if I can read the whole thing and comment on it as you suggested. It really is the biggest load of crap. I suppose, if you take yourself as seriously as these pompous gurus do, then the lineage is important. But for me it is a bit like reading about how Jerry Falwell cam to be head of his church. It's boring. The only people who will be interested are Rev Rawat's historical revisionists. Sorry, J-M, I know it is an important book in that it shows that Shri Hans was not in the true lineage and that Rawat Junior cannot claim any sort of historical clout but goddam it - it is pompous nonsense.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:30:18 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: Yes it's extremely boring BUT Message:

you'll find quite some references on the origins of Rev. Rawat's philosophy. Maybe I'll do it myself later on when the whole text will be online. I view it like a general index on several issues. Like the 'financial service' I stumbled upon in this chapter. And the guru-disciple relationship Shiv Dayal comments a lot in this chapter, and you'll see that Rawat's merely parroting him. I'm 100% sure he owns a copy of this book, and quotes it quite often. And no premie's aware of this.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:00:51 (EDT) From: salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Yes it's extremely boring BUT Message:

actually I found it interesting. Having visited big brother website that u r refrencing and reading about how Shri hans found his guru, witnessed a miricale while drowning then recieving the '4 kriyas'. Rathet amusing, wouldn't you say so? Why can't Indiam talk about a guru without describing him as a miracle maker and a magicina with a secrt agenda?

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 01:20:01 (EDT) From: Chelaji on a New Path Email: None To: salam Subject: That's why you were only a temp-guru Message:

C'mon Guru Nerdji Salamji!!! Spice up your bio with a miracle! Make Tyson fly or something ... then I'll give up the Bleached-Blond-Taiwanese-Fashion-Guru (her clothes are too expensive anyways), and go running back to you, Oh my Beloved Guru Nerdji Salamji! :)))))) Your Ever-So-Humble-Chela-on-the-Path

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 10:25:05 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: All Subject: Welcome to Spin City Message:

Over on Life's Great, cosmic traveller (if that's who it really is) questioned SC about the revisonism done by EV, and here's what SC had to say: Interesting points CT. Though why be puzzled when the champagne is in your hand? Take a gulp and enjoy the celebration! I know what you mean. Too many people trying to re-write history? : The following is the perspective of a private citizen who has benefited from the teachings of a speaker best known as 'Maharaji.' The opinions expressed are not intended to reflect the views of Maharaji or any organisation that helps him in his global work. Nor should it be mistaken as a popular or official perspective on the matters discussed: It's always been a question of safety. Whether we believe in the Bible or not, the fact is that many of us developed respect and love for this guy 'Jesus' who we read about in religious studies. At school I was so fascinated by his life that I got high grades in 'Religious Knowledge' which, frankly, was embarrassing at the time, me being somewhat of a rabblerouser. But many of us were thrilled with his speeches and felt confused and regretful that such a person was not around 'now'. Well, it turned out that a young boy came over from the East and said he had something to show us. Those around him were sprouting all sorts of amazing claims about his divinity, lineage etc. Some of it was impressive, some preposterous. Even he was unaware that in the west 'God' was regarded as a 'personality' rather than simply 'the pure and perfect energy which created and sustains the universe'. After a few years of 'exuberant' propagation, it was realised that making wild sweeping claims was not the way to go and could lead to a backlash in the public eye which could compromise the safety of M and students. It wasn't needed, the gift speaks for itself. For his part, M was most often extremely modest in his claims. Some of his Indian representatives brought the tunnel visioned concepts of Hindu mythology with them and sprouted absurd, unacceptable concepts at western students. As history shows, they weren't around long. But too late. Many written and film archives still carry touches of the titles and job descriptions bandied about in the 1970's. Whether they were or are 'true' or not is a relative and subjective thing, personal and non debatable. What is debatable is the manner in which the public image and promotion of the speaker was adjusted. For those that love Maharaji and respect the enormous amount of energy and effort he had put into spreading word about the Knowledge he offers, his safety is paramount. Of course it is. There were many 'saviours' manifesting in the west around that time, and one of the Woodstock rock festival headliners (I think it was Country Joe McDonald) said in 1969 something like 'If Jesus comes now, we'll all be wearing chains with electric chairs hanging around our necks in a few year's time.' This sums up perfectly the mood of the culture into which M innocently and unknowingly arrived from India in 1971. It is important and proper that people, especially those who no longer wish to follow Maharaji's teachings, respect the right of those around him to advise him, in any way they see fit, to accommodate the political climate of the times and adjust PR output accordingly. It in no way impinges on his teachings, gifts, work, efforts or effect on his students. As far as... why won't he acknowledge other Masters? Look, I can only speak from my perspective which as you know is both limited and sometimes flawed. I'll analogise this one. Why do so many rock bands carry the title 'Greatest Rock n Roll band in the world?' Surely there is only ONE? Let's assume I'm a good guitarist. When I go somewhere to play, I'm there to give fans a good experience of my musical skill and feeling. Over the years, some people have said 'Man you're better than Hendrix!' 'You sound like Van Halen!' Most times I have laughed with the genuine feeling that they are mistaken. Other times, while playing with inspiration, I've thought, 'shit, they're right, this is awesome stuff!' So what to do? Play Mr Humble all one's life, constantly holding others up as better or similar to oneself, or embrace one's individuality and original nature and ALLOW others to see you as their benchmark performer? It's the fan's call and the performer's privilege. Of course, only a handful would agree that I'm a contender. The media and promotion/publicity generated by record companies determines who they see as the best – the current stable of rock icons, most of whom are 'famous'. Many of us musicians are happy to be the acknowledged fish in our little ponds. We respect dozens of guitarists, love them all, but when we're strutting our stuff with our fans – we're the Best! Similarly, in the world's eye, and as 'ex-premies' love to remind us, Maharaji is only a big fish in a LITTLE pond. He is happy to cater to those who are interested, and happy for that to be a little pond in a great big world. That's how it is. The other Masters, whether acknowledged or not, are irrelevant, insignificant. Not because they aren't Masters or have nothing worthy of learning, but because in M's pond, he is the fish, he has the juice, energy and gift to offer. I haven't seen anyone else flying all over the world constantly talking about a free gift that any sincere person can have. The real beauty of Elan Vital is the very thing the exes criticise most. The fact that many thousands of people do indeed, come, receive knowledge, and then wander off. Exactly! That's how he wants it to be - FREE CHOICE! If and when they come back to M and K, fine, great, if not, ok too. No sweat. If opponents want to embarrass Maharaji by scoffing at all the people who come and go. Then they're going to HAVE to acknowledge that the freedom and easy going nature of the operation which allows that, in NO WAY comes close to the sinister cult, group mindwarp assembly they paint onto EV as an organisation or to students who enthusiastically embrace his gift. I have chosen not to engage further in this debate, preferring my status as a carp in a little backyard pond who fiddles with his instruments while the Roman Cyber Empire burns itself up. Please do not encourage further input to this thread. I greatly dislike long posts like this, which reek of self importance and the sad need to be 'heard'. In future, those who want to hear me, please buy my CD 'The Powderkeg of Luminosity.' Then you will know I am much better with notes than with words. Stay well CT, SC Too much, eh? CT, I'd thing long and hard on what SC said to you here. It's a perfect example of just how far people, who can't face cold truth, will go to fit the facts into a worldview they might have become too comfortable with.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 11:26:16 (EDT) From: cq Email: None To: Jerry Subject: And the Spin shall set you free? Message:

Seeing as SC's post has gone unchallenged since 7th September, I've decided to post the following on LG, under the thread entitled 'The truth is not your enemy'. Not content with trying to re-write history, SC now attempts to re-define the meaning of the word 'modest'. (see his post below where he says 'For his part, M (I presume he means Maharaji) was most often extremely modest in his claims'. Apparently the word 'modest' can now describe someone who sat on a spotlit throne 50 foot above his audience, wearing a jewel-encrusted crown and a highly-placed official (Mahatma Charanand) kissed his feet. This being part of an event described by Maharaji himself as 'the most holy and significant event in human history'. If that's what humility means to you, SC, then you really should read Orwell's novel '1984' again. You'd make a fine recruit for the Ministry of 'Truth'.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 16:12:03 (EDT) From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jerry Subject: SC is greater than Hendrix Message:

Because he can show you Hendrix!

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 19:42:11 (EDT) From: such Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: well, carp are bottom-feeders Message:

SC: 'my status as a carp in a little backyard pond' -- more 'smoke on da water'... hohoho

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:13:11 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: That's simply a lie Message:

After a few years of 'exuberant' propagation, it was realised that making wild sweeping claims was not the way to go and could lead to a backlash in the public eye which could compromise the safety of M and students. It wasn't needed, the gift speaks for itself. For his part, M was most often extremely modest in his claims. That's entirely untrue. Here's Maharaji in 1990: So Tulsidas says that he bows down to such a Guru Maharaji, the Master, who is really Hari (Supreme Power) in the form of man. So the main thing to understand here is that he bows down to the feet of that guru whose utterances, whose expressions are able to illuminate. And what is that which is illuminated by his words? It is the heart which is illuminated. His words are able to sever and dispel the spidery web of illusion, infatuation and ignorance. This I have seen myself and realized in my own heart. Yes, in my heart! SC's a complete phony. I've seen it for myself, how these premies operate. Last week I was sitting here trying to discuss Maharaji with a current cult member. He made the same point, more or less, that, whatever Maharaji might have said when he was young, he sure stopped making these claims later. Then I showed him this quote and watched his face very closely as he first read it aloud and then scrambled to reply. I could say that I cross-examine people for a living but that's really just gilding the lilly. We all know what insincerity looks like. Science tells us that so much of our uniqueness as humans, reflected in our unique, large cerebral cortex, is all about subtly reading each other. In any case, it was so obvious that my friend the cult member was preparing to lie. And lie he did. He could barely contain the smirk in the corners of his mouth as he lied in the name of 'truth'. What'd he say? Honestly, I can't quite remember but I assure you it wasn't 'Oh, I see'.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:09:40 (EDT) From: gofer boy Email: None To: Jerry Subject: CT's question Message:

SC, I'm a bit puzzled here, Maharaji stresses the need for a living master, yet I have connected with a number of those that have passed on and it seems like Jason has also, with Yogananda who undoubtably was/is a great master. How is it possible that M fails to recognize the other great masters that have come (mostly) out of India? I have always wondered about this; perhaps Maharaji has the same realization that I had in 1983 that the Masters are One. Sometimes I feel that I am the only bridge to that realization however I am well aware that 'no man (or woman) is an island. Most just accept that either there is no significance to masters or that they have found the 'one true master' I find this extremely divisive. Many times here, I have wanted to share some really great Satsang that has come down the pike via other masters but unlike some of the exes that bring their agenda here, I want to stick to the Satsang of M in order to not add to the confusion. Question is, with Maharaji denying his earlier role as LOTU and his recent denial of himself in God consciousness how can he claim that he is Master. Or does he use the word referring to Sri Hans in the second person. Don't get me wrong, I still subscribe to his Satsang via the satellite and I consider him a very very special friend and I enjoy his discourse very much. But to deny those things and to have Arti sung to him again, well you must admit that the exes have a point there. I would like to hear from the premies who frequent this site regarding this as I have more than digested the opinions of the exes. Also the EV whitewash spin that it never happened is just so much bull**** how do you guys feel about that, I mean it denys or tries to deny that those LOTU years never happened and it is historical revisionism at it's worst and I must admit that the exes are right about what a crock it is. SC, I'm not confused because of my practice, which is comming along fine. However the exes are right IMO we need to discuss some of these issues rather than bury our heads in the sand and act like they don't exist. And I'm not talking about things that happened 20 years or more ago, that's been more than gone over. I'm sure that you know what I mean. peace and love, CT ps: this may not be the place for this, Carlos has my email and I believe has offered to help people connect with me (correct me if I'm wrong Carlos) but this concerns all of us becuase it is about the truth

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:29:27 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: gofer boy Subject: My answer to CT Message:

CT, It's interesting how your post to SC is padded with assurances that you're still a 'company man' so to speak. Doesn't it bother you that you can NEVER discuss these issues openly in and around Maharaji? Unfortunately, as you and I both know, if you think SC's brushing your more than valid observations aside, Maharaji would do much worse. IF you had the temerity to stand up at a microphone and ask such questions, he would ridicule you. In that moment, like any cult leader, he would take your sincerity as a threat to his ego and would marshall all his situational power to make you feel like a doubting fool. Is that love? Is that truth? Honestly, CT, is it?

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:22:13 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: gofer boy Subject: Could someone post this answer to CT for me? Message:

CT, You've raised some interesting questions, even given your assumptions which some, like me, don't accept. SC's offered one answer which you can judge for yourself. Does it really seem honest to you? Does it? Anyway, there are other answers to your question on the ex forum if you're interested. An Anonymous Ex-Premie (yeah, right!)

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 14:12:51 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: gofer boy Subject: That's my pal, Cosmic Traveller Message:

He may be the last of the Hindu hippie premies but he also happens to be very honest. If only he can shake off the Hindu juju.....

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:17:36 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Could someone post CT's post too? Message:

I'm unable to even read CD's excellent forum but it seems like CT's post would be at least as interesting here as SC's nonsensical answer. Who knows? Anyway, if someone could grab it, that'd be great. Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 20:17:20 (EDT) From: gofer boy Email: None To: Jim Subject: David Andersen's response to SC Message:

David Andersen to SC: Fabulous post, SC. We're on much the same page. Read the post from 'CT' again. It has subtle and not-so-subtle tone and obvious grammar and punctuation differences from anything I've read from the genuine CT before. CT, is this really you? I question whether it is. But no matter, SC, you old hound. Your post is beautiful. It stands on its own. Let's get together in Oz the next time around; get my email address from Geoff & Kim; I'd love to hook up with you. Stay well, my friend --- -stay inspired and inspiring......xoxoxoDA And CT's response to David Andersen: Yes David, it really was me. The pranam, I can understand, because no matter what a premi feels, a chance for complete humility is a great thing. But the arti part, even though optional, 'superior power in person' I used to believe that and no longer do, so there is my quandry. How can I sing something that I no longer believe to be true? I totally undrestand SC's point that Maharaji has his own pond and that he is the big fish yet he started losing me when he said in Portland that 'everybody else was out there swinging the golf clubs and he had the golfball' I mean, the light is in everyone and according to my experience, in everything so how can Maharaji claim to be the only one to have the golfball? Or did I miss something and Maharaji is only pretending that he is not the Lord. peace and love, CT

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:19:37 (EDT) From: Pat:C) Email: None To: gofer boy Subject: ...and SC's repsonse to CT Message:

SC says to CT: He said it within the fishpond CT You know, at an event, his pond. That's where he has the golf ball, and from that perspective it does indeed appear as if others may be swinging clubs. He also constantly repeats that if you'd like a round or two with anyone else, then go for it. It boils down to personal preference. I'm a one teacher dude myself, it is so simple and suits my imbalanced Libran indecision very well. I don't doubt that other people have a wonderful cosmic and enlightening experience following other teachers. I like meeting great and high souls and suffer no internal dilema regarding their allegience to someone other than Maharaji. He's my man, that's all, just like my partner is my partner, it doesn't mean I don't like, fancy, admire or even (gulp) desire other lovely people. But I made my choice and I stick with it like she stays with me cos it works very well. If it didn't, we'd move on. Same with MJ, I've had a couple of rows with him over the years but we made up even stronger. On that basis CT, my advice to you is this...Leave Maharaji. Have absolutely nothing to do with him but continue to practice the meditation that brings you solace and inner contentment. Drop him and embrace the other teachers wholeheartedly and sincerely. After a year or so you'll feel very clear and balanced about M's role and then make a choice based on that balance. A dear friend of mine now has a pic of the Dali Lama on a candle lit alter instead of M. So what? He is a wonderful man. She's still a lively brilliant soul who brings love and happiness to all about her, has had K since 1972, knows many ins and outs and has based her decision on what suits her the best. I believe that a lot of pwk confusion is caused by this strong resistance of and fear to walk away. I say - walk away, you're already in touch with your heart and will take that connection wherever you go. Trust it. Me: Yes, I would also like to see my pal, CT, walk away but for different reasons than SC. SC wants CT to split because he is a politically incorrect embarassment, because he does not toe the EV A-list PWKs party line. The party line is ''if you don't like what M is doing and want to think for yourself, then walk.'' If you don't enjoy weaseling your way to the top of the cult - then fuck off! PS One interesting outcome of Gerry's goof-up by showing the IP numbers is that you now see that SC also posts as Passing Through, CV and a host of other aliases. This is the same cultweasel apologist who posted as cerise, Marolyn Kintire et al. His real name is David Rou.... Oops, sorry, David. But everytime you piss me off with your weasely deceitfulness and game-playing, I'll add another letter to your name.

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Date: Sat, Sep 08, 2001 at 13:31:45 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Pat:C) Subject: What a funny guy he is! Message:

He's my man, that's all, just like my partner is my partner, it doesn't mean I don't like, fancy, admire or even (gulp) desire other lovely people. Is that true, SC? Do those pics of Bal Bhagwan Ji just drive you downright crazy sometimes? Like the old bumpersticker says, 'So many gurus, so little time!' What a burn, huh? By the way, are you really PT too? Figures. There has to be a limit to how many people can be that disconnected from reality.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:01:46 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Re: Welcome to Spin City Message:

Sounds exactly like the dribbling legaleze from an EV'er like Sharon Stokke or similar. Can you imagine them being able to really the world they are in? My gosh, it would mean giving up their exalted posts at the local PTA.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:16:53 (EDT) From: Loco Email: None To: btdt Subject: Re: Welcome to Spin City Message:

Looks like an official statement made by EV with a touch of a human factor. Very interesting.

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:29:17 (EDT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Loco Subject: Re: Welcome to Spin City Message:

Typical cultspeak, isn't it? I especially enjoyed it because the writer seems so sure of himself. There's a choice. Right. In a cult. He never intended it to be that way. Sure boss. That's why we sang arti every fucking day, twice a day, and considered ourselves as belonging to him in the ashram--the girls considered ourselves to be married to him. Community premies male and female were devoted to him. It's the best way to get money, you see: obey agya. O what a tangled web he weaves.... Remember that old analogy m used to use when asked by new premies why they felt confused just after receiving knowledge? He'd say something like this: The mind is a powerful entity, (actually it's an absence) and when it is faced with this supreme knowledge, this holy knowledge, it tries to cause A LOT of confusion. It's like when you jump into the ocean and the sand comes up all around you and you can't see anything. But, if you wait a while and practice that meditation, that sand settles down and then you can see all the beautiful fishes! Same with knowledge. It's spin city all right. They're spinning themselves so much they don't know they don't even need him. Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 13:03:19 (EDT) From: btdt Email: None To: btdt Subject: correction: 'to really see' Message:

[nt]

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 11:26:50 (EDT) From: Levels of Denial and Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Rationalization heretofor thought UNATTAINABLE! Message:

Absolutely UNBELIEVABLE !!! Im Stunned at this Monologue of Unsurpassed Illogic and Inanity...BRAVO..on your Colossal Achievement!!

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Date: Fri, Sep 07, 2001 at 11:05:36 (EDT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Jerry. absolutely spot on ! Message:

'Too much, eh? CT, I'd thing long and hard on what SC said to you here. It's a perfect example of just how far people, who can't face cold truth, will go to fit the facts into a worldview they might have become too comfortable with.'

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