Ex-Premie Forum 7 Archive
From: Aug 21, 2001 To: Aug 24, 2001 Page: 3 of: 5


curious -:- curacao and amaroo soon? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:48:27 (EDT)
__ silvia, afraid of maharaji -:- Here is his planned trip -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:22:10 (EDT)
__ Loaf -:- no... but something just jarred my memory??? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:38:43 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- What a wonderful post! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:43:41 (EDT)
__ __ Bryn -:- Blessyou.......but -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:17:15 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Jesse Jackson gave me darshan once -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 16:48:50 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- Fresh take on all this -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:35:20 (EDT)
__ __ PatC -:- You can go on as long as you like, Loaf -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:23:01 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Don't be sorry Loaf -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:05:07 (EDT)

Way -:- Response to CAC -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:38:32 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- My condolences, Way -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:11:46 (EDT)
__ PatC -:- best wishes to you Way -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:16:06 (EDT)
__ Cynthia -:- Good for you, Way -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:50:17 (EDT)
__ __ such -:- Ja-weh! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:58:28 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Way to go, Way! *solidarity* [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:19:22 (EDT)
__ cq -:- Re: Response to CAC -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:14:41 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: Response to CAC -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:20:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ cq -:- must be the right word for it then! (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:28:19 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Great news Way NT -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:11:55 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- Thanks to all -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 18:58:51 (EDT)

gerry -:- Request to block certain posters -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:49:35 (EDT)
__ salam -:- FAs suck -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:07:33 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: FAs suck -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:03:16 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Re: Request to block certain posters -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:17:33 (EDT)
__ __ Bob -:- Re: Request to block certain posters -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:59:36 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Thanks, Ger -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:53:23 (EDT)

Silvia -:- Victoria: can you answer -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:12:06 (EDT)

Jim -:- What really hit home last night -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 10:56:27 (EDT)
__ PatC -:- Great stuff, Jim -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:08:26 (EDT)
__ such -:- lucid [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:48:48 (EDT)
__ Rick -:- exxxxxcellent post -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:00:39 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Re: What really hit home last night -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:20:19 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Anon spouted lies their only defence nt -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:13:03 (EDT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Re: What really hit home last night -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:12:33 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- the horror .. the horror .. -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:22:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Re: the horror .. the horror .. -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:31:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: the horror .. the horror .. -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:30:36 (EDT)
__ gerry -:- Jim: blocking Cat -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:09:48 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Did I say that? I meant CD -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:13:19 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- IGNORE HIM TOTALLY nt -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:12:48 (EDT)

Michael Dettmers -:- So I’m and apostate, am I? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 10:45:12 (EDT)
__ Jim Sander -:- The contrast is stunning... -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 00:56:02 (EDT)
__ __ And On Anand Ji -:- Nice letter, Jim S. [nt] -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 03:40:36 (EDT)
__ Scott T. -:- Re: So I’m and apostate, am I? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 22:12:26 (EDT)
__ ninkyzin -:- Re: So I’m and apostate, am I? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 21:29:59 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- was this an essay contest - or just a troll? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 23:29:04 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- You HAVE to be joking!! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 22:03:46 (EDT)
__ michael donner -:- Re: So I’m and apostate, am I? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 19:16:34 (EDT)
__ RichMandrake -:- thanks, Michael..look who's CyberStalking. -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:10:15 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: thanks, Michael..look who's CyberStalking. -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 19:16:05 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Are you serious, Rich? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 18:01:55 (EDT)
__ Charlie -:- Brilliant, Clear and TRUE. Thanks! NT -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:23:45 (EDT)
__ Pat:C) -:- Thanks, Mike, for taken the time -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:43:32 (EDT)
__ suchabanana -:- yep, a prostrate is a terrible thing ta lose -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:39:04 (EDT)
__ BTDT -:- Re: So I’m and apostate, am I? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:23:11 (EDT)
__ __ Dermot -:- Well said BTDT nt -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:33:23 (EDT)
__ EddyTheEagle -:- Re: So I’m and apostate, am I? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:18:29 (EDT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Re: So I’m and apostate, am I? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 16:06:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ EddyTheEagle -:- Re: So I’m and apostate, am I? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 18:37:45 (EDT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Michael, you sent me this email, right?? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:54:43 (EDT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Re: Michael, you sent me this email, right? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:40:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: Michael, you sent me this email, right? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:52:33 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Well Done, Michael -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:59:57 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Great post, Mike -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:05:58 (EDT)
__ __ Richard -:- Strong response Michael -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:06:07 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Good post! Good Letter, Michael. [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:01:45 (EDT)
__ Dermot -:- Excellent response ! nt -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 10:58:04 (EDT)

BTDT -:- M answering or himself -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:45:32 (EDT)
__ Bin Liner -:- ...the highest thing possible... -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:18:41 (EDT)
__ __ Pat:C) -:- Beautiful BTDT and Bin. Thanks [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:34:53 (EDT)
__ btdt -:- Re: M answering or himself -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:10:09 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: M answering or himself -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:46:29 (EDT)
__ Timmi -:- Re: M answering or himself -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:07:08 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Re: M answering or himself -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 10:48:01 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, I definitely agree -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:17:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Yeah, but BTDT had a point -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:16:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- Ok 'open kidney' for chrissakes haha NT -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:27:41 (EDT)

it only a matter -:- of when it's gonna happen -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:05:29 (EDT)
__ [Blank] -:- Re: of when it's gonna happen -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:08:51 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Are Your Base All Belong Two Uss! [nt] -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:10:33 (EDT)

Salam -:- MariAnne -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:20:33 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- Re: MariAnne -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 05:27:26 (EDT)
__ __ a0aji -:- Re: MariAnne -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 08:20:48 (EDT)

PatC -:- Okay, CAC I surrender. You've got eDrek -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 03:49:07 (EDT)
__ Cedron -:- At the foot of the mountain -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:02:53 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: Okay, CAC I surrender. You've got eDrek -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:40:32 (EDT)
__ __ PatC -:- We're too synchronized, Salam -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:46:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Re: We're too synchronized, Salam -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:03:48 (EDT)

Been There -:- Please enlighten me -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 02:20:42 (EDT)
__ PatC -:- Premies are behind CAC -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:02:28 (EDT)
__ __ Been There -:- Re: Thanks Pat -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:35:19 (EDT)

Scott T. -:- This Forum really sucks!! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 02:00:21 (EDT)
__ a0aji -:- Come see what we're talking about on EPO:CT -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:32:11 (EDT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Just run Proxomitron and it all goes away -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:45:18 (EDT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Re: Just run Proxomitron and it all goes away -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 22:20:22 (EDT)
__ Carlos -:- Gerry, if you want to set up a system -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:41:35 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Gerry, upgrade please! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:17:05 (EDT)
__ __ PatC -:- Re: Gerry, upgrade please! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:26:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Voyeur -:- Re: Gerry, upgrade please! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:08:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ BeenThereDoneThat -:- Re: Gerry, upgrade please! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 08:49:14 (EDT)
__ __ salam -:- Re: Gerry, upgrade please! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:23:40 (EDT)
__ salam -:- Re: This Forum really sucks!! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 03:01:28 (EDT)
__ __ PatC -:- Bravenet is classy but -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:06:28 (EDT)

Like It Is -:- Foolishment -:- Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:03:30 (EDT)
__ Joe -:- Who is foolish? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:30:05 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Good question! -:- Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:13:14 (EDT)
__ Abi -:- NO MORE HATE -:- Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:11:18 (EDT)
__ __ ninkyzin -:- Re: NO MORE HATE -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:28:20 (EDT)

Abi -:- A question for Victoria -:- Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:00:54 (EDT)
__ Victoria -:- Re: A question for Victoria -:- Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:25:56 (EDT)
__ __ Silvia -:- Re: A question for Victoria -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 08:50:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ Abi -:- feel no shame -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 01:16:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ silvia, afraid of maharaji's POWER -:- no shame -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:26:32 (EDT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Ahh the sensitive Mr horse pet food -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 03:35:23 (EDT)
__ __ Abi -:- is that an answer? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 01:15:17 (EDT)
__ __ PatC -:- Victorian hypocrisy -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 00:56:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Catweasel -:- Wrong Victoria -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:06:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ SILVIA -:- Re: Wrong cat -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 08:55:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: Wrong cat -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:29:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Wrong but possible right, Cat -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 07:55:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Bazza? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 05:30:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- What's so hard to believe Abi ? nt -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 06:49:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: What's so hard to believe Abi ? nt -:- Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 01:26:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ name withheld-afraid of Rawat Cult -:- Bazza was like -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 05:52:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ another ex that can't say his name -:- maybe it's Bazza -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 10:08:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- thanks -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 06:04:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ name withheld-afraid of Rawat Cult -:- Re: thanks/My apologies to you -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 06:15:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Abi -:- another Jagdeo victim? -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 20:58:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- My apologies, Pussy -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:22:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: My apologies, Pussy -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:49:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You and M would love us to just walk -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 05:07:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Re: You and M would love us to just walk -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:36:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ BTDT -:- Re: You and M would love us to just walk -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:56:43 (EDT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Catweasel, you are so sick -:- Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:54:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ CW -:- Re: Catweasel, you are so sick -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:09:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Victoria -:- Abi: I t;old you -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 00:08:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek with hair on my palms -:- Re: Abi: I t;old you -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:51:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0a =====|) ji -:- ROFL! -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:58:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- No MORE ABUSE NO MORE HATE -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 01:25:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ a0aji -:- Re: No MORE ABUSE NO MORE HATE -:- Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 18:04:21 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:48:27 (EDT)
From: curious
Email: None
To: All
Subject: curacao and amaroo soon?
Message:
Does anyone know about the upcoming program in CuraCao<

Also, I have heard that there is a 9 day program in amaroo in Oct.

Any info on either of these?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:22:10 (EDT)
From: silvia, afraid of maharaji
Email: None
To: curious
Subject: Here is his planned trip
Message:
LAWYERS ARE EXPENSIVE

Events
I have accepted invitations to attend the following events:
Florianopolis, Brazil - August 25 and 26
Buenos Aires, Argentina - August 28 and 29
Curaçao, Netherlands Antilles - September 1
and 2
Durban, South Africa - October 20 and 21
Grand Baie, Mauritius - October 26 - 28
Additional information is available at events.elanvital.org

SCUM!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:38:43 (EDT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: curious
Subject: no... but something just jarred my memory???
Message:
I had completely forgotten about one incident which took place at La tierra in argentina in the mid 90s.

we were all registering, and expected to fork out hundreds of $£'s for the priviledge of camping on site.

M was sitting in his toyota landcruiser about 10 feet away watching the proceedings.. I was going from one registration table to another trying to 'wing /talk/ charm' my way into staying and oweing the money.

This I eventually managed.. most likely because M was taking an enormous amount of interest in my goings on - and therefore they all wanted to do the right thing by him.

As I was leaving, M drove along slowly beside me, and I said 'thankyou maharaji' in a way which I thought conveyed sincerity and gratitude.. actually i was just wanting to do a bit of social climbing and brownnosing with the top man.

He looked decidedly unimpressed. I presumed it was beacause he 'knew' that I had no intention of paying the money to elan vital... but I also recall at the back of my mind the notion that 'we didnt like each other very much'.

This was an almost unconcious thing.. more chemical than anything.. and indeed I pushed it very far to the back of my mind. Very far, so that it popped up only today, years later.

Actually the significant part of 'we dont like each other' was 'I dont like you' which completely went against my experience to date. I doted on him, adored him.. and yet, with a glance and a tiny gesture.. all the emotion and charm and wonder of darshan was forgotten.

I spent the time in Argentina and at subsequent 'live in festivals' competing for his attention (like mostly everyone else at the IOC). But some subtle magic had gone. I no longer quite believed that i wholeheartedly wanted what I was struggling to get - and yet years of habit spurred me on.

I remember also my instructor conference in the late 80s. He was witty, hilarious, sharp... but there was no BLAST there. No WOW. I remember him standing very close to me and I thought.. 'this isnt darshan'.

So, what maketh darshan ?

What ingredients produced the shock of his stillness ? Why did the first time I saw him in Rome blow me out of the water? Below I have reposted something which i wrote yesterday in answer to a post on another forum by Mike Finch. I am an FOMF/PAMF in recovery !

There are a number of thoughts that spring to mind about the power of darshan experiences... which i have come to understand a little from my forays into the world of theatre directing and my tremendously successful acting.

The first notion is this.. that the 'atmosphere in a room is negotiated socially'...what I mean is that when an actor has 'presence' - what they are effectively doing is 'setting the tone' which an audience tunes in to.

This to many observers and students, appears to imply or follow an 'inner commitment ot attention' of the actor. I suspect that it is also dependant on the movement qualities.. stillness is very powerful.

Also recognition plays a huge tribal ancient role in out collective psyche. Not only the babies recognition of its mother.. but to be recognised by people who do not know you was until the invention of the camera and the media of last 100 yrs or so, a statement of IMMENSE power.

Combine these two elements.. and some of the mysteries of darshan can be made secular.. very useful for an actor who needs to command an audience and take them with him on a journey.

M also plays a deceptively 'blank' or impersonal card.. he is 'MY Guru Maharaj ji'- he for most people was not a real person - but a manifestation/projection of their own inner 'idol' - therefore to see him in the flesh (as opposed to on video or a photo) is initially *shocking* - As my dear chum Brn Davies so eloquently put it the other day (although he was talking about practicing Knowledge):
a little bit like the effect of looking into a mirror, and having your reflection 'WINK' at you.

He would also be in 3D of course - which after a long tome of getting used to his face in 2D makes a HUGE psychological difference. This coupled with his undoubted High Status and Self Confidence (in those situations) will IMPRESS and STUN the recipient no end.

Now that the Personality rather than the identity of m has become the issue, we are destroying the graven image of our Master - only to find that it was all an illusion - and we are clawing at the face of another human being, who now is fighting back.

In the need to make maharaji REAL - we have brought him down from his pedastal.. and he seems ill equipped for life amongst equals.

i dont want to hurt him. I am interested in all the questions that knowledge, mass euphoria, darshan fever and recovery bring to bear on our lives.

The fact that such discussion is polarized into mud slinging and harm doing is sad.

Take care and sorry to go on so long !

Loaf

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:43:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: What a wonderful post!
Message:
Excellent, Loaf. Just excellent!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:17:15 (EDT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Blessyou.......but
Message:
If I'm your chum-HOWCOME YOU DON'T SPELL MY NAME PROPERLY HUH?!!

IT'S BLATENT DEFAMATION.

I applied to join the softies forum today, so I'm expecting your vote.

Love Bryn.
ps When we were working with those twenty Elvis Impersonaters all those years ago, I experienced darshan!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 16:48:50 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Jesse Jackson gave me darshan once
Message:
I had completely forgotten about one incident which took place at La tierra in argentina in the mid 90s.

we were all registering, and expected to fork out hundreds of $£'s for the priviledge of camping on site.

M was sitting in his toyota landcruiser about 10 feet away watching the proceedings.. I was going from one registration table to another trying to 'wing /talk/ charm' my way into staying and oweing the money.

This I eventually managed.. most likely because M was taking an enormous amount of interest in my goings on - and therefore they all wanted to do the right thing by him.

As I was leaving, M drove along slowly beside me, and I said 'thankyou maharaji' in a way which I thought conveyed sincerity and gratitude.. actually i was just wanting to do a bit of social climbing and brownnosing with the top man.

He looked decidedly unimpressed. I presumed it was beacause he 'knew' that I had no intention of paying the money to elan vital... but I also recall at the back of my mind the notion that 'we didnt like each other very much'.

This was an almost unconcious thing.. more chemical than anything.. and indeed I pushed it very far to the back of my mind. Very far, so that it popped up only today, years later.

Actually the significant part of 'we dont like each other' was 'I dont like you' which completely went against my experience to date. I doted on him, adored him.. and yet, with a glance and a tiny gesture.. all the emotion and charm and wonder of darshan was forgotten.

I spent the time in Argentina and at subsequent 'live in festivals' competing for his attention (like mostly everyone else at the IOC). But some subtle magic had gone. I no longer quite believed that i wholeheartedly wanted what I was struggling to get - and yet years of habit spurred me on.

I remember also my instructor conference in the late 80s. He was witty, hilarious, sharp... but there was no BLAST there. No WOW. I remember him standing very close to me and I thought.. 'this isnt darshan'.

So, what maketh darshan ?

What ingredients produced the shock of his stillness ? Why did the first time I saw him in Rome blow me out of the water? Below I have reposted something which i wrote yesterday in answer to a post on another forum by Mike Finch. I am an FOMF/PAMF in recovery !

There are a number of thoughts that spring to mind about the power of darshan experiences... which i have come to understand a little from my forays into the world of theatre directing and my tremendously successful acting.

The first notion is this.. that the 'atmosphere in a room is negotiated socially'...what I mean is that when an actor has 'presence' - what they are effectively doing is 'setting the tone' which an audience tunes in to.

This to many observers and students, appears to imply or follow an 'inner commitment ot attention' of the actor. I suspect that it is also dependant on the movement qualities.. stillness is very powerful.

Also recognition plays a huge tribal ancient role in out collective psyche. Not only the babies recognition of its mother.. but to be recognised by people who do not know you was until the invention of the camera and the media of last 100 yrs or so, a statement of IMMENSE power.

Combine these two elements.. and some of the mysteries of darshan can be made secular.. very useful for an actor who needs to command an audience and take them with him on a journey.

M also plays a deceptively 'blank' or impersonal card.. he is 'MY Guru Maharaj ji'- he for most people was not a real person - but a manifestation/projection of their own inner 'idol' - therefore to see him in the flesh (as opposed to on video or a photo) is initially *shocking* - As my dear chum Brn Davies so eloquently put it the other day (although he was talking about practicing Knowledge):
a little bit like the effect of looking into a mirror, and having your reflection 'WINK' at you.

He would also be in 3D of course - which after a long tome of getting used to his face in 2D makes a HUGE psychological difference. This coupled with his undoubted High Status and Self Confidence (in those situations) will IMPRESS and STUN the recipient no end.

Now that the Personality rather than the identity of m has become the issue, we are destroying the graven image of our Master - only to find that it was all an illusion - and we are clawing at the face of another human being, who now is fighting back.

In the need to make maharaji REAL - we have brought him down from his pedastal.. and he seems ill equipped for life amongst equals.

i dont want to hurt him. I am interested in all the questions that knowledge, mass euphoria, darshan fever and recovery bring to bear on our lives.

The fact that such discussion is polarized into mud slinging and harm doing is sad.

Take care and sorry to go on so long !

Loaf


---

Good.

I saw Rev. Jesse Jackson in Hartford, once -- and I had Darshan.

So I knew at that instant that it was a mediated-experience thing;
I mean, I knew who he was. I saw the Secret Service guarding him.
He was stumping for the Presidency, IIRC.

I filed that experience away, but did not forget it -- I was genuinely
puzzled that I felt the same darshan buzz I got from Maharaji -- on
his best night; I had to be honest.

Maharaji's own rap is his undoing; he teaches honesty, of a sort. It's no wonder his devotees take him literally -- he seems to insist on it.

I disagree about the harm, though. He's done tremendous harm; I
think at a minimum, he should spend the rest of his life wearing
striped clothes, breaking big ones into little ones and talking
shop with Lex Luthor during lunch break.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:35:20 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Fresh take on all this
Message:
Nicely thought out and well said.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:23:01 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: You can go on as long as you like, Loaf
Message:
Brilliantly written, Thanks.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:05:07 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Don't be sorry Loaf
Message:
that was a really interesting post. I'll read it again later got to pop out right now.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:38:32 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Response to CAC
Message:
I've let my boss know about the CAC site and their posting of my employment information. He has asked me to stop posting from my computer at work and of course I will comply. I will be posting only in the evenings and weekends now. I'm certainly not going to be intimidated by CAC in any way.

I have written to EV and asked that they instruct CAC to remove the information about my place of employment and the other personal information. Their refusal will indicate that they sanction premie activity such as CAC.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:11:46 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: My condolences, Way
Message:
I know I wouldn't care for it if this happenned to me, as it may very well someday. Who knows who's going to pop up on CAC next? It's good that you went to your boss first and he didn't make a big deal out of it. Most people do use their work computers for personal use and if it doesn't interfere with work, most bosses don't make much of a fuss. Just wanted you to know that I don't think less of you for the picture those pricks at CAC tried to paint of you. There's nothing wrong with being an honest working man who has a conscience. Funny how CAC seems to think it does and adds up to stalking. In the long run, it can only hurt Maharaji's image for what they're doing.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:16:06 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: best wishes to you Way
Message:
Well done and thanks for being brave. Let's show them who the real sissies are!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:50:17 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Good for you, Way
Message:
Honesty is always the best way to handle things, isn't it? I thought that if you informed your boss and explained, they would be reasonable.

Of course, that doesn't in any way excuse the CACA site :)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:58:28 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Ja-weh!
Message:
way ta go!

[how to do those smiley faces?]

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:19:22 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Way to go, Way! *solidarity* [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:14:41 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Response to CAC
Message:
I sometimes wonder if I'll be next in line for one of these ridiculous 'CACattacks'.

I can hardly believe how they describe your suggestion, which was -'Send a printout of xxxxx (Maharaji) quotes throughout the years - could be printed and attached to the windshield wipers of all the rented cars in the parking lot at Long Beach Convention Center if and when an event happens there again.'

CAC call that an attempt to 'harass innocent victims'.

Harass innocent victims?

When I was in the ashram, the leafletting of Maharaji's quotes wasn't seen in quite that light …

…though, come to think of it …. ;)

Here's kudos and solidarity to you and all other exes who've been singled out for the CACheads' knee-jerk reaction. Their blatant use of the selfsame thing they accuse exes of (i.e. stalking) must set a new record in hypocrisy and unawareness.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:20:43 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Re: Response to CAC
Message:
I said 'solidarity' without having read yours. !
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:28:19 (EDT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: must be the right word for it then! (nt)
Message:
must be the right word for it then! (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:11:55 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Great news Way NT
Message:
cc
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 18:58:51 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Thanks to all
Message:
Thanks y'all.

Here I am nearly 50 and still learning lessons. So much irony here - I trusted premies more than I should have. I figured that they would know what the issue is, it certainly isn't me! The CAC is a very ugly effort and I hope it doesn't get any uglier or any more personal between us.

The issue, of course, is Mr. Rawat and his activities. He is the only person that can silence his former followers. All it takes is the truth. If he acknowledges the truth of the past and speaks the truth to all those who will listen to him in the future, then I, for one, would have no more objections, and I would move on. I would walk. In fact, I am wanting to walk. But I can't, as long as he perpetrates lies and innocent people fall for it.

Yes, Rawat, tell them to find the quiet inside and to be grateful for the opportunity of this life and this heart. But just tell them that it isn't YOUR grace. Share love, but don't claim to be its author. You said you would have been content to be a mere servant, not the master. Return to your own heart and join us, don't stay above us on the distant throne of an enigmatic figurehead, taking to yourself the devotion that should go to the real power of life.

Premies, this isn't between you and us. This is between us and Rawat.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:49:35 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Request to block certain posters
Message:
I've received a strongly worded request from a valued ex-premie forum contributor to block Victoria Clemens. The request also included a promise to withdraw from the conversation if I fail to acceed to his/her demand.

Now I see Abi and Silvia have started threads to talk with this VC and others actively and willingly engaging with VC.

If I block VC, who can probably overcome the block anyway, I will be stepping on many other toes. If I don't, we loose a valueable forum contributor.

What's an FA to do? Is it time for elections yet? :)

PS I told CD to stay away from here until he unblocks Jim and Deb from his disscussion group. I feel that's as good as blocking him. We'll see if he can honor this simple request.

As for upgrading, well, let's see if we can get this linear conferencing thing together, or perhaps find some better software. I hate to spend our hard earned money on junk if few people are going to be satisfied with it.

If necessary, though I can pay for the upgrade this month, no sweat.

Cheers and chin up all. This too shall pass.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:07:33 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: FAs suck
Message:
like always. but thanks for taking action to stop that bloody pop up window from coming up.

thanks again for taking the time. I think everyone appreciates what you are doing including the cackas

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:03:16 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Re: FAs suck
Message:
&gt; the cackas

We must have them over for dinner.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:17:33 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Request to block certain posters
Message:
I've received a strongly worded request from a valued ex-premie forum contributor to block Victoria Clemens. The request also included a promise to withdraw from the conversation if I fail to acceed to his/her demand.

Now I see Abi and Silvia have started threads to talk with this VC and others actively and willingly engaging with VC.

If I block VC, who can probably overcome the block anyway, I will be stepping on many other toes. If I don't, we loose a valueable forum contributor.

What's an FA to do? Is it time for elections yet? :)

PS I told CD to stay away from here until he unblocks Jim and Deb from his disscussion group. I feel that's as good as blocking him. We'll see if he can honor this simple request.

As for upgrading, well, let's see if we can get this linear conferencing thing together, or perhaps find some better software. I hate to spend our hard earned money on junk if few people are going to be satisfied with it.

If necessary, though I can pay for the upgrade this month, no sweat.

Cheers and chin up all. This too shall pass.


---

Thanks, Gerry; and for taking on this forum, this month.
It is appreciated -- and was, from the moment you did so.

[LATE! Thanks for the Text-Only Box! Whee!]

Now, as to your dilemma (*1)


---

There are consequences to both choices, just as there was a
consequence to vetting this in public. ;)

a) If nobody steps up to defend VC, vigorously, seems the
easier choice is to block that IP and see what develops (*2)

b) If, OTOH, someone speaks for VC, and makes a good case for
their presence, the principle in the case *could* be more
important than any one personality.

Politics suggests it *does* depend on who the personality is,
to the group. ;)

You might want to ask the person if you can out them, so the
group could have a fair hearing of all details -- just a
thought; I'm in no way certain that is a good move to make.
________

(*1) From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:

Dilemma \Di*lem'ma\ (?), n. [L. dilemma, Gr. &?;; di- = di`s-
twice + &?; to take. See Lemma.]
1. (Logic) An argument which presents an antagonist with two
or more alternatives, but is equally conclusive against
him, whichever alternative he chooses.

Note: The following are instances of the dilemma. A young
rhetorician applied to an old sophist to be taught the
art of pleading, and bargained for a certain reward to
be paid when he should gain a cause. The master sued
for his reward, and the scholar endeavored to &?;lude
his claim by a dilemma. 'If I gain my cause, I shall
withhold your pay, because the judge's award will be
against you; if I lose it, I may withhold it, because I
shall not yet have gained a cause.' 'On the contrary,'
says the master, 'if you gain your cause, you must pay
me, because you are to pay me when you gain a cause; if
you lose it, you must pay me, because the judge will
award it.' --Johnson.

(*2) Hotboards gives you that tool, as part of your fee
to register. Unfortunately, they don't give a Planet of the Apes
voting tool, that we can all use, to stone them with. ;)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:59:36 (EDT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: Request to block certain posters
Message:
At this stage I am against blocking this victoria caracter. It has not made personal attacks and it somehow gave us insight in the darker undercurrents of the cult. Very incriminating. I think we should let this play out. It will be another chapter in the EPO files.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:53:23 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks, Ger
Message:
This CACaphony is a real test of premie morality. Too bad part of the cult programming, as CD evinces oh so well, is to pop the clutch on their morality when their Master is challenged.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:12:06 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Victoria: can you answer
Message:
my post below?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 10:56:27 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What really hit home last night
Message:
Early morning here. Just waking up (watch out for typos). Saw 'The Others' last night. Nicole Kidman was great. Movie's spooky. Thank god I'm an athe--t. When we got home, checked the page and email. Someone tipped me off that, along with two more ringers, Drek's now been added to the CAC list of 'Worst Alleged Cyberstalkers'. Took a look. Sure enough, they've outed Drek, thrown up a bunch of dirty laundry that may or may not be his (I know in my case some of what they've said, even with respect to basic, core facts, is ridiculously wrong) and have thus tried to intimidate him. Hey, Rog ... I always said anonymity was a bit of yolk, eh? Oh well ....

Someone also sent me a copy of a post of Cat's from LG wherein he suggests, as it turns out he has here as well, that Bazza is somehow in on this shit. (By the way, CD blocked me from there and I would hope that Gerry would please do me the courtesy of reciprocating on my behalf.) Cat says this and Cat says that. I see Pat take Cat's word for true when he says that he's not 'Victoria Clemens' and that he's not behind CAC. Mind you, just last week Cat was threatening me with exactly this kind of attack. I dunnnooooo, Pat. Why would you believe anything he says? Anything? Anyway, if all goes well we'll eventually learn who IS behind CAC. What I said yesterday, I'm serious about.

So then, before I fell asleep, it struck me how absolutely bankrupt Maharaji truly is of any possible defences. Indeed, as we've noted, there simply are no rational defences for the guy. Indeed, hardly anyone's ever offered one.

Okay, in a sense, that's not true. The first official or cult-sanctioned defence of Maharaji was the Elan Vital response to our questions and criticisms in its website FAQ section. There, Maharaji (d/b/a EV) made his greatest public relations blunder since 1973 when he bragged to the world that his silly convention at the Houston Astrodome wold be 'The Most Significant Event in the History of Mankind.' Perhaps he'd forgotten what it's like to speak to minds outside his cult. Perhaps he thought he could just throw words, no matter how lying, at a problem and make it go away. Whatever he thought, Maharaji fucked up royally when he denied his past, denied that he'd ever claimed to be God. As damaging as all the Mishlers, Dettmers or Donners could ever be, as scandalous as all the accounts of Jagdeo and how Maharaji did and didn't handle him, what could have been more damning for his credibility than that? Nothing yet I'm aware of. Sreu, he was in a tough spot. Had to say something, I guess, to meet the challenge of his ex-followers. But, in truth, he had no move, he had no play. Baldly lying like that, especially in the face of the much-referenced quotes section on EPO, can hardly be called a 'move'. Yet, that's what he did and I'm sure he's been reeling from the results of having lied like that ever since and no, I can't see it getting any better.

Since then, however, his 'defences' have been even stranger. Indeed, one can hardly call them defences at all. First, Pia (and whoever she was really teamed up with on her EV-sanctioned site) boldly offers to stand up for the truth and set the record straight. Only problem is she can't do it. There's nothing for her to say. Her trumpeted 'call to arms' raised a phantom army without weapons. The site was stillborn in its promise to 'take a stand'. It's not as if they dragged us to the table and humiliated us with facts and arguments. To the contrary, they threw down their gauntlet and ran into the bathroom and locked the door. We then politely knocked on the door, asking them to come out and discuss this challenge. They never heare us though. They were sitting on the edge of the tub, fingers in their ears, shouting aloud 'I told you this would happen! What??

But the one thing Pia did bring to the table, much as EV itself had hinted in its first offical response, was a renewed attack on the credibility and character of us exes. I mean, really, what else are they going to do with a Dettmers or Donner? Or JM for that matter?

Then Glasser joined in. Same song only harsher, much harsher. This time, though, not even an attempt to defend Maharaji per se. Rather, Glasser's whole thrust was -- is -- to throw mud on ex-premies in the hopes of somehow, possibly scaring us offline or something. Coarse, grotesque and cowardly flailing. All about us and really nothing about Maharaji.

So now there's CAC. This is clearly an illegal operation and, to the extent that any of us care about our privacy, security or reputations, our serious concern and response is justified. I'm no expert in these matters but I do expect that there will be some serious repercussions for those responsible. I truly wouldn't want to be in their shoes in that respect. Not for anything in the world. But yes, these attacks are indeed intrusive and embarrassing. Even though the CAC entries are, in large part, false and laughably misleading and, where they're not, entirely irrelevant, they're muddy and, in some cases, painful, I'm sure. Dave was certainly hurt by his entry and the ugly violation of his family's privacy. The culprits wanted to hurt and, it must be said, they accomplished that somewhat. I beleive that they'll be hurting a lot more than any of their targets before this is over but, point is, they've shaken us all up a bit. Why deny it?

However, and most importantly, CAC has proven for once and for all that Maharaji is simply defenceless.

You know, it's exquisitely interesting in a spy-vs-spy kind of way, this question about Bazza or Rob. What if Cat's telling the truth and Bazza was that spectre come true, a real live cult operative? Oh boy! Bazza gets in, gains our confidences so smoothly he even becomes entrusted with management of the forum. Yet, all along he's working for Satan (or Jesus, however you want to see it). Then he slips out and, lo and behold, he's laughing back at Spy Central, developing the microfilm. Exciting, isn't it? But, the key thing is, it's not as if he, or whoever's behind all this shit, came up with anything the least bit relevant, is it? I mean, it's not as if the premies have busted us for faking those pesky little 'God' quotes on the web site. Now that would be a defence of Maharaji.

'What? You mean he DIDN'T say that he was God?? Why, those fucking ex-premies! Wait 'til we show them this!'

-- and then the premies put up some Real Video footage of a few of us sitting around doctoring old And it is Divine's.

Again, that would be something, a real, substantive defence of their cult leader, on topic and on the merits. But they just can't do it. There's nothing really for them to say. To be fair, they did try that a touch in their Dettmers CACaphony when they accused him of lying about Maharaji killing the bicyclist in India. But how? tearing a page from the Pia Grunbaum page of investigative journalism, they just called him a liar. Does that even count? No, I don't think so.

So, the point is, they can hit us all they want, I guess. We can and should fight back vigorously for our own personal reasons. But none of that has anything to do with our criticisms of Maharaji and his cult. Moreover, by resorting to such desparate and pathetic action, the cult has shown they've got nothing else to fight with. In short, we've already won.

The cult has proven itself to be just that, an immoral personality cult and nothing more. Over on CD's forum, I'm told, the premies are avoiding all the nasty moral implications of CAC by reminding themselves that 'Lifes Great', just take it one breath at a time and don't think about nothing!

Yeah, like I say, we won.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:08:26 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great stuff, Jim
Message:
You said: ''I see Pat take Cat's word for true when he says that he's not 'Victoria Clemens' and that he's not behind CAC. Mind you, just last week Cat was threatening me with exactly this kind of attack. I dunnnooooo, Pat. Why would you believe anything he says?''

I don't Jim. I take it all from whence it comes - an anonymouse. As far as I know it could all be one or two nuts playing games. I'm actually not all that interested in the anonymice. The CAC creators will eventually be exposed probably by EV themselves when they realized that it has made them look like an evil cult and then we'll know who the anonymice are.

There's that old saying, ''By his fruits you shall know him.'' Perhaps it should be, ''By his fruits, nuts and vegetables shall you know him?'' If the premies behind CAC are Rawat's fruits then they probably were rotten before they fell off the tree.

The fact is that I have not minded being attacked by them because I always learn from peoples' criticism of me. It has taught me to focus on my main argument (that Rawat is an evil person) and not to insult individual premies. They too have been conned just as I was. I know premies think he is nice and loving but so did Al Capone's friends and allies. God help you if you were Capone's enemy. To them he was merciless and killed hundreds.

I have already apologised for criticising private premies but my profile on CAC has not been removed. I guess I have to apologise for criticising Rawat before that happens. But the fact is that Rawat is not a private individual and I gave him ten of thousands of dollars over 28 years.

I am not entitled to criticise premies as I did not donate money to them. The fact that many DLM/EV officials squandered my donated money does irk me but it was to Rawat that I gave it. I lived in poverty because of my belief that he was Jesus come to save me. He himself said that he was that savior come again.

The new merciless brand of PWK would proabably say that was because I was a fool and should have taken a leaf out of Rawat's book and parlayed my charisma into a lucrative consulting business as many of them did. These fruits of Rawat are cynical and cold.

But let's keep this in proportion. CAC is one of maybe a billion websites. As Joe said it is like looking for one book in a library full of dusty books. ''Boris'' knows this and it is only meant to intimidate us. However I do know that their argument is that they are entitled to attack us and threaten our employment and livelihood because that is what we are doing to Rawat. Excuse me I did not get wealthy out of donated money. Rawat is still fair game even if his fruits are not.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:48:48 (EDT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: lucid [nt]
Message:
good 'un
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:00:39 (EDT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: exxxxxcellent post
Message:
Jim,
Great post. The letter to CAC wasn't worth $250, like you said, but perhaps $150. This post was worth the full $250, though. The only thing I don't totally agree with is '...we won.' We won't 'win' until maharaji's operation is disabled. So far, we're 'right' but haven't won yet.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:20:19 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What really hit home last night
Message:
> they've shaken us all up a bit. Why deny it?

Well, I don't see any good reason to give them ammunition, that's all.
It's not a denial of fact -- it is a denial of *satisfaction*.

/hobby horse on

We don't have privacy here -- quite the opposite. This is not the
best place to discuss strategy.

/hobby horse off

I had a dream about vulnerability last night. It made me think,
and it made me begin documentation, and writing strong letters
outlining what's been going on here, in a pre-emptive way (I can
just drop them in the mail, at least provocation).

They caught the first watch off-guard. They will not catch the
second watch, similarly unprepared.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:13:03 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Anon spouted lies their only defence nt
Message:
xx
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:12:33 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What really hit home last night
Message:
Just a short note to say hello. I go away for six days and, lo and behold, another forum upgrade.

Lots of changes happening in my life, all good. Sat through an entire satellite feed on August 12. I don't know why - I hadn't been going to the venue at all for a few months - thought I was going to just say hello to friends. Actually, most of the long-term, hard-core regulars weren't there - that was surprise number one. Surprise number two was that something prompted me to sit through the entire feed. I wasn't completely comfortable but I did it for some reason. For one thing, twenty-plus years of near fanatical devotion to the former lord of the universe requires some delving into the past and reexperiencing its horrors. I'm convinced that I'll work it all out some time. Optimism rules.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:22:38 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: the horror .. the horror ..
Message:
Just a short note to say hello. I go away for six days and, lo and behold, another forum upgrade.

Lots of changes happening in my life, all good. Sat through an entire satellite feed on August 12. I don't know why - I hadn't been going to the venue at all for a few months - thought I was going to just say hello to friends. Actually, most of the long-term, hard-core regulars weren't there - that was surprise number one. Surprise number two was that something prompted me to sit through the entire feed. I wasn't completely comfortable but I did it for some reason. For one thing, twenty-plus years of near fanatical devotion to the former lord of the universe requires some delving into the past and reexperiencing its horrors. I'm convinced that I'll work it all out some time. Optimism rules.

Steve


---

Quint!

I don't think it usually necessary to put one's self through all that.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:31:59 (EDT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: a0aji
Subject: Re: the horror .. the horror ..
Message:
I feel I benefited in some way from sitting through the feed. The guy's got something going for him - I wouldn't have followed the guy for so long if there wasn't something there. Yes, I've gone through horrors (and yes, Apocalypse Now is currently playing in major theatres). I may be dumb but something drew me to the perfect monster. I'm still working out why.

I'm currently reading the Tibetan Book Of The Dead, latest translation by Robert Thurman. I plan to read the classic Evans-Wentz translation next. The perfect monster discouraged book learning and I detest that. I also bought a King James bible yesterday, first time. Catching up on years of wisdom teaching that the fatguru discouraged. All the best.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 13:30:36 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Re: the horror .. the horror ..
Message:
Good luck with that.

I didn't know Apoc. Now was on -- neat!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:09:48 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim: blocking Cat
Message:
How can I? He comes in under a proxy. It just makes things worse, IMO.

Suggestions anyone?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:13:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Did I say that? I meant CD
Message:
Gerry,

Up to you, of course, but, personally, if CD's blocked me (and Deb and who knows who else?) he shouldn't be allowed over here, don't you think?

As for Cat, don't know the answer to that. I'm not that net savvy.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:12:48 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: IGNORE HIM TOTALLY nt
Message:
n
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 10:45:12 (EDT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: All
Subject: So I’m and apostate, am I?
Message:
To the creators of Citizens Against Cyberstalking:

I take issue with your characterization of me as an apostate. You state, “apostates are people who at some point in their life betray a political, philosophical, intellectual or religious cause that was dear to them and who, in a radical shift in heart, become fierce opponents of this cause.” I don’t disagree with this definition.

Yet, your libelous commentary fails to identify the political, philosophical, intellectual or religious cause I am betraying. Instead, you accuse me of becoming a fierce opponent of a well-known public figure to whom you refer as XXX. You and I both know that XXX is Mr. Prem Pal Singh Rawat, a/k/a Maharaji. You and I also know that Maharaji goes to great lengths to dissociate his mission as having anything to do with political, philosophical, intellectual or religious causes. If anything, Maharaji himself is apolitical, unphilosophical, anti-intellectual, and categorically states that his mission is not a religion. How, then, can I be an apostate if the person against whom I am a fierce opponent does not represent any of the causes that constitute the basis for apostasy?

The only cause Maharaji represents is himself as evidenced by his greed for money, alcohol, and the abject deference of his devotees. I did not always believe this to be the case. When I first heard of Maharaji in 1971, I believed that he was sincere in his desire and commitment to bring peace to the world through the dissemination of what he calls Knowledge. I very much wanted to play a part helping him fulfill such a noble cause and I actively committed myself to that end. To this day, I still hold onto the values of love, integrity and care for others that once led me to believe that Maharaji represented their highest embodiment. After many years of being in his personal service, however, I came to realize that my initial assessment of his character was sadly mistaken, and I have documented my reasons for coming to that conclusion. That hardly makes me an apostate. If anything, Maharaji is the apostate for betraying his original mission and, in doing so, disappointing and, in many cases, harming those who sincerely believed in, and supported, him.

You state, “Michael Dettmers becomes delinquent: he acknowledges breaching non-confidentiality agreements.” Will you please explain to me how one breaks a non-confidential agreement? Perhaps what you meant to say is that I breached the non-disclosure clause of my employment agreement. If that is what you meant to say, you are wrong. In fact, I never signed a confidentiality agreement with Maharaji. There was a standard non-disclosure clause in my employment agreement which prevents me from discussing specific legal and financial matters pertaining to my fiduciary responsibilities with respect to Maharaji’s personal business activities, and I have scrupulously abided by its terms. Any legal or financial matters that I have discussed publicly were already a part of the public record in that I had openly discussed such matters with premies and organizers all over the world as part of my then responsibilities. Your misquotes are deceptive and misleading because they deliberately omit what I have just reiterated.

You go on to question my competence. Let me remind you that, at the height of his popularity, Maharaji came under careful and intense scrutiny by the IRS and other branches of the US government, as did many other cult leaders. However, unlike the Rev. Moon, for example, who was jailed for income tax violations, or Rajneesh, who was expelled from the country for flaunting its immigration laws, Maharaji’s suffered no such consequences as his financial and legal affairs, for which I had overall responsibility, were organized and administered impeccably.

You suggest that I once enjoyed the lifestyle of the rich and famous by being Maharaji’s personal manager, and suggest that I have not been able to duplicate that lifestyle since leaving him. In support of your argument, you point to a house on the golf course and a Mercedes (as if they alone represent standards of the rich and famous). Yes, I did have a house on the golf course, but I acquired it several years after I left Maharaji. In truth, my current lifestyle is far superior to the one I lived while working for Maharaji. More importantly, I have my independence, dignity and self-respect, something that few people are able to sustain when in his service.

You make a scurrilous remark about my seemingly futile attempt at therapy. Where is your evidence for this claim? I have nothing against therapy, but I have never sought the help of a therapist, unless you are referring to my periodic sessions with a massage therapist. You claim that few people liked me during my years with Maharaji. I am sure that some people did not like me but, then again, I was not trying to win a popularity contest. Maharaji made it abundantly clear that, in his world, he was the only person worthy of popularity and he regarded anyone who became too popular as a threat and moved against them. Witness his family, the mahatmas, etc. Nevertheless, I did not replicate that leadership style when I left his employ. Dettmers Industries was voted by Inc. magazine as one of the “best small companies to work for in America,” precisely because, as its President and co-founder, I created a working environment and practices that fostered ambition, self-esteem, dignity and pride of ownership throughout the workforce. That is something Maharaji knows nothing about.

Of all of your lies and misrepresentations about me, however, I find particularly galling your suggestion that, because I have dared to criticize your lord and master, I should not be “allowed to come in contact with young people” as a hockey coach at the University of Virginia. If you are really concerned about young people, why don’t you start by taking Maharaji to task for his deplorable and inexcusable lack of compassion and concern for the victims who have accused Jagdeo, one of his former mahatmas, of pedophilia?

Finally, I find it curious that no one, especially those who were or are currently around Maharaji, has ever come forward and publicly disputed my claims about his behavior. I am, of course, referring to his consistent pattern of abusing alcohol, of sexually exploiting his female devotees, of fleeing the scene of an automobile accident in which he killed a man and engineering its cover-up, to name but a few. If you want to discredit me, why don’t you provide evidence that I have been lying, instead of fabricating spurious claims that I am delirious and suffering from hallucinatory paranoia? I’m afraid that you are the ones suffering from hallucinatory paranoia as evidenced by your cowardice at not identifying who you are.

Well, your unscrupulous attempt to defend your cult and its leader by spreading lies about me and others will not succeed. I am independent enough to take the heat and whatever consequences may ensue. I am also bolstered by the hundreds of former followers who have thanked me for exposing the real Maharaji thereby helping them to break free from the crippling bonds of his very destructive cult. Ultimately, your campaign will backfire because it will prove to be a great disservice to the very person you are so vociferously defending.

Michael Dettmers

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 00:56:02 (EDT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: The contrast is stunning...
Message:
Michael-

Thanks again for your precise,patiently written and illuminating posts.

I know countless people who have told me that reading your posts has done more for their recovery from the cult than anything else they have done.
Many people have said that they semi-discounted most of the stuff on epo as unsubstantiated, until they read your first hand accounts of life with maharaji.
It has turned many people around and started some little used parts of peoples brains and hearts functioning once again.

I have also come to realize that there are many people who 'lurk' but don't post here, and share information with others who don't visit here.
These revelations have spread far and wide, especially with corroborations from Donner.

When you compare the hatchet job that the cac site tried to pull on you, with your letter, it becomes quite obvious which side has the intelligence, character and sense of ethics.
I recommend that premies read the two, and then decide which side they would choose to support.

It shows me once again that those who align themselves with the truth occupy the moral high ground.
It's interesting, but quite sad to see m and ev squirm with rebuttals and denials...it's such a far cry from the early days, isn't it?
I'm not sure where and when m went wrong, but it's obvious that he is struggling to stay afloat.
It must be getting harder and harder for him to live with the burdens he has created that are now coming into full view for all to see.

When I wrote my letters to ev, and posted them along with ev's responses, I had e-mails from all over the world, commenting on it.
I even had people in town who are not premies and never had anything to do with maharaji come up to me and comment on how revealing the style and contents of the letters were.
They immediately sensed who was coming from truth, and who was in denial.

Your posts have done a lot to illuminate these issues.
The rebuttals and denials only point out the obvious discrepancies in m's world even more.

Thanks again,
Your honesty has helped many,

Jim Sander

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 03:40:36 (EDT)
From: And On Anand Ji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Nice letter, Jim S. [nt]
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 22:12:26 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Re: So I’m and apostate, am I?
Message:
Thanks Michael. I actually made it entirely through that post, and find it scrupulously precise.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 21:29:59 (EDT)
From: ninkyzin
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Re: So I’m and apostate, am I?
Message:
Read M's poem 'feeling' on his website.

I have respect for the MAN Maharaji, and gratitude for my teacher, Maharaji. I understand this to be difficult time in evolution to be responsible for such work. People change, ideas change, an Indian child grows into man. The SatGuru becomes a highly respected Master.

Perhaps it is easier for me. I dig Maharaji cos of what he's taught me and I don't or didn't ever have a concept of him as God or Lord of the Universe. (Mind you I questioned (walked out)M for 23 years and practised only very intermittently -- and have moved back into practise since 1997(walked in -- door still opened).

-- Michael, I rebelled against people in positions like yourself as early as 1974 -- finding all the going's on too much. You know all the premie concepts, self importance and arrogance; and jostling for front seat syndrome, the false pride, illusions of grandeur, all that normal shit human being stuff--I thought it was a bit off and I felt uncomfortable and felt I never really fitted in).

Something happened. 'The path of excess might well lead to enlightenment!' I came back, listened and sort of understood. It is so much better these days. So free. So real. It's my opinion its mostly the older folks that cause most this trouble both -- ex and non ex's.

Curiously, this site strengthens my experience of K. It's great to be me. I have my answers now. I don't have to give a cent to the organisation. I do not have to support overseas airlines to chase M around the world. All I do is what I want, when I want. Yes I practise the techniques, listen to M speak, and have a chat to anyone who interested. I'm still in contact with my family (tho I am checked up on -- they're all internet literate///) and everything seems to fine.

There is a fascination when I see the old Premies coming undone -- and i'm inclined to suggest the 'take it easy' approach. I sincerely feel M's motives to be true. Of the organisation and Premie and Ex Premie Kingdom!!????? CHALLENGING!!!!!

So here I am full circle at a different point. Putting all this under rational scrutiny--and what a surprise!!! I do not have to engage in any cultish behaviour to practise and enjoy K. and continue to be grateful to M. Mind you --I-- continue to be my own worse enemy when left unchecked. Just for today, everythings fine. It that rhythm I'm hooked on.

Hoping all this is sorted out soon (CAC etc) and everyone is left unharmed and intact and the better and not the worse for it.

Take care

Nin

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 23:29:04 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: ninkyzin
Subject: was this an essay contest - or just a troll?
Message:
nin,

If you live long enough, one day, you will find the whole thing
utterly repulsive. On that day, please come back here. Someone
will be here. I'm sure of it. (The address will change, of
course; that's just the way things go on the Internet).
Seriously -- your integrity dissipation light is on -- that's
that little blinking light in the corner of your viewfinder.
It's saying DANGER WILL ROBINSON, but in its own quiet way.
Your statements are of a personality with little integrity.
I'm hoping you can find your integrity, somehow -- because
you cannot be both integral and immune to the enormous
suffering Maharaji has caused us all.

out.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 22:03:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ninkyzin
Subject: You HAVE to be joking!!
Message:
Maharaji's poetry is juvenile, morose, newage garbage:

Feeling that is, was, and will be
A gentle love free
No consideration for tomorrow
Space for joy, none for sorrow
Heightened affection grows
No dismal to and fro
Together, but separated for long
Alas. Heart grows strong
No definite course to take
Elated with the heart, I awake
No conclusion to reach
Feeling to learn, feeling to teach
I wonder why this is so hard
But have I ever heard my heart?
In silence I learn to listen
In simple joy I begin to glisten
All thoughts seem so distant
Want to feel only the instant
The clever in me wants to fear
The heart in me wants the dear
Conflict is, but will be over
Heart will win, I will be sober.

Still, kind of funny for an alcoholic, wouldn't you say?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 19:16:34 (EDT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Re: So I’m and apostate, am I?
Message:
hi michael, just wanted to stand by you here in this forum. great post as always, thoughtful and clear.

as i have stated numerous times on such forums...i have personal knowledge that what michael dettmers has been saying is true and based upon personal witness and personal experiences.

for those reading that might still be harboring some need to defend maharaji as master, check inside to your devotee/master compass of co-dependency and notice what other areas in your life that you are not owning your own power...what other relationships are there imbalances in power equations...how often do you take credit for the wonders you create in your life, how often you can praise the glories of your fellow travellers on the path of life.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:10:15 (EDT)
From: RichMandrake
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: thanks, Michael..look who's CyberStalking.
Message:
Thank You again, Michael...
It was your obviously thoughtful and sincere commentary on your experience with Maharaji/Rawat..confirmed and amplified by others....That finally opened my eyes to the truth about Maharaji/Rawat

It is ironic and a sad commentary on those who defend Maha/Rawat that those who charge you with Cyberstalking are skulking in the Virtual Bushes...Hiding behind a Russian Website and accusing you and others of the CyberStalking that they are so viciously Pursuing, while you with real identity even publish your email address (courageous in my eyes).

This May ultimately be a good thing...They are Trying to Kill the Messenger...because they cannot Kill the Message.

As one, Who up until last month, was considered a large financial contributor to Mr. Rawats mission...These are a few of the Questions that they cannot kill and that will remain and grow until answered.

1. Maha/Rawat denies that he ever claimed to be 'The Lord of the Universe'..'All Powerful'..The Superior Power In Person'...yet his own quotes taken predominantly but not exclusively in the '70s totally refute this..Why does he not tell the truth about his past?..Why doesnt he take this opportunity to set straight what his REAL Realization and Place in the Cosmos is?..(this has concerned and confused me for 20 years).

2. Numerous people who have been in Maha/Rawats close proximity when he hasnt been on stage claim that Maha/Rawat has abused Alcohol on a Daily basis for years..and often while under the influence been abusive to those around him....is this true?..if so..how can someone who claims to have a consistent realization of 'that Peace within'..and once claimed to be the 'superior power in person'...do this?...

3. There have been numerous confirmed reports of Maha/Rawat procurring female devotees for his Sexual Pleasure..and then refusing to see them..talk with them after....causing...much anguish and confusion to these Women...again..are these reports not true?..If they are true what does that say about the perpetrator?..

4. If Maha/Rawat is NOT the Lord of the Universe and in fact is a very flawed human being...then what possible connection does he have with the experience that the techniques of knowledge generate inside a human being?...Why does he claim to be the necessary intermediary between humans and the experience of the Divine?...Why does Maha/Rawat claim ownership of the techniques and experience of 'the Knowledge'?

These are just a few of the questions that remain and will only grow..CAC's attempts at silencing those who speak against their Lord...only confirm my Very Sad Conclusions.

I am not a bongo (and though I am a flawed human being, I have never claimed otherwise)...I have Loved..Worshipped and Adored Maharaji to a greater or lesser degree for 28 years..I have practiced knowledge...I denied myself career, marriage and family for many years because of the concepts that he gave me at a formative period in my adolescence. I have given him thousands and thousands of dollars of my money. And I have sincerely believed him to be at least an Incarnation of the Highest Ideals of humanity.

Whatever attempt CAC makes at silencing Maha/Rawat's critics..Maha/Rawats behaviors will ultimately become known...and stand on their own....Though I dont believe most of the accusations made by CAC, I am aware that those who post here are NOT perfect..some MAY be Bongos...Some may be overly derrogatory and even defamitory (though i find the attempt at Accusing Mr.Dettmers of any of these qualities laughable).

NONE of the people who post here EVER Claimed to be 'THE Perfect One'..None claimed to be greater than God...Or ever stated that the purpose of our life..was to devote ourselves to them. Therefore I have sifted through the verbal food fights that have occured here...to find the nuggets of Truth..about the one I have so obsessively adored for these Many years.

To My GREAT Dismay...the reports about Maha/Rawats abusive and flawed behaviors...are corrobrated..consistent..and compelling...It matters not if the people who corrobrate are imperfect..they never claimed anything else...It is to the One who DID Claim to be Perfect..that the Burden of Proof now falls.

If Maha/Rawat or those of you hiding behind the CAC website can refute the Corrobrated testimony of those who have been close to Maha/Rawat..I NEED TO KNOW...I strongly suspect (to my great displeasure) that you cannot..So though in the Short run...CAC's cyberstalking , Slander and intimidation...may scare a few into silence...It will not..It Cannot Change the Underlying Truth about who Maha/Rawat is and what he Has Done....

Thank ALL of you who have been around Maha/Rawat..for telling the truth and freeing me from what apparently has been a lifetime Delusion...Most Sincerely, RichMandrake

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 19:16:05 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Re: thanks, Michael..look who's CyberStalking.
Message:
Hi Rich.

In my experience, since there was never any actual proof of anything
(good or bad) it was all a hearsay-based fantasy, promulgated by the
dude on the throne who couldn't grow a real mustache.

So I didn't need proof at all - at *all* - that fraud mirage ji
was a hoax-ster. What I needed was examples set by premies I
knew, who'd already figured it out, and were willing to say so,
in an obvious place such as this is.

My guess is you won't be able to get the toothpaste back into
the tube. At first, I was unwilling to diss maw-haw-raw-ghee
-- he was the Lord, for Christ's Sake! -- but that prohibition
soon fell away, as I realized I'd been defrauded of irreplaceable
things and resources and events ruined by cult involvement.

I still think the best slogan for DLM/EV is 'Not a cult since 1973!'

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 18:01:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: RichMandrake
Subject: Are you serious, Rich?
Message:
Rich,

Are you really just one month out and a former major lamb as well? Too much. Excellent post, by the way. That's the whole story in a nutshell.

If you'd like I'd love to hear from you privately:

jamesheller@home.com

Thanks

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:23:45 (EDT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Brilliant, Clear and TRUE. Thanks! NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:43:32 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks, Mike, for taken the time
Message:
to write such as calm and responsible message to people who do not understand the meaning of the word responsibilty and have no social conscience.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:39:04 (EDT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: yep, a prostrate is a terrible thing ta lose
Message:
i.e. scurrilous protestations from da prostrates, directed at da apostates, prose straight from da apostates, prostrations for da prose straight, and prostrations for da apostates [oops, a post ate my prose straight] hohoho
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:23:11 (EDT)
From: BTDT
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Re: So I’m and apostate, am I?
Message:
BRAVO!!! Well done. And since I never thanked you, THANK YOU! It wasn't until I saw your and Michael Donner's names that I stopped and read EPO. I then knew that there was something honest and sincere, prompting me to read the other posting journeys. The honesty keeps ringing through loud and clear, unlike anything EV or CAC have said. They have their chance and they aren't taking it. Neither is Maharaji. I, and others, were willing to give them benefit of the doubt that they would do right with having these oportunites. If CAC is their answer, well then, I guess they have spoken.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:33:23 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: Well said BTDT nt
Message:
c
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:18:29 (EDT)
From: EddyTheEagle
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Re: So I’m and apostate, am I?
Message:
Michael
Thanks for the post. I have asked you in the past to ellaborate on his drinking...but now you say he is a major alcohol abuser, heavily into sex abuse and has aparaently committed a homocide...can you please ellaborate?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 16:06:58 (EDT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: EddyTheEagle
Subject: Re: So I’m and apostate, am I?
Message:
EddyTheEagle,

I have discussed these and other issues at length. You can find the link to my comments on the EPO home page.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 18:37:45 (EDT)
From: EddyTheEagle
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Re: So I’m and apostate, am I?
Message:
Michael
I dont come to this forum very much...Last time I was here was when you started posting...I will mean while try and read your newer posts.....when I am in the us I will email you and perhaps we can meet for a beer or something...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:54:43 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Michael, you sent me this email, right??
Message:
*********************************
Tue, 21 Aug 2001 20:15:42 +0000

Roger
I have an idea I would like to discuss with you.
Where/when can I call you?
Thanks
Michael Dettmers
*********************************

Funny thing was the sender's name was BOris Kontchalovski' and the email was

Was someone trying to lay a trap and trick me?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:40:04 (EDT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Michael, you sent me this email, right?
Message:
Roger,

I definately did NOT send you that e-mail.

I do not know who is falsely using my name, but I wuldn't be surprised if it is connected with this CAC situation.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:52:33 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Re: Michael, you sent me this email, right?
Message:
Michael,

Yes, I assumed you did not send that email and that's why I did not respond giving them my phone number. And thus, on their page on me they have no phone number. Lovely.

Thanks!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:59:57 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Well Done, Michael
Message:
Doesn't it make you wonder what the authors of CAC intend? I mean by including Michael Dettmers on their site, they only encourage even more vigorous publicity about what Maharaji is really like, as opposed to the Maharaji that most premies/pwks see.

I ask the makers of that site again. Do you think that Maharaji is happy with that site? Do you think it benefits him? Have you asked him if its helping him with his image and his cause? What is your goal, exactly? Is it to hurt Maharaji? Why do you want to do that, if you are followers of his?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:05:58 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Great post, Mike
Message:
But what's this about a massage therapist? You never told us you went to a massage therapist before.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:06:07 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Strong response Michael
Message:
Good to see you here even if under such bizarre circumstances. As more truth is known, the fear increases amongst those who cling desparately to their religion. Your response, along with the others who have been defamed, exposes CAC's motives to any thinking person.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:01:45 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: and_on_anand@yahoo.com
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Good post! Good Letter, Michael. [nt]
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 10:58:04 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Excellent response ! nt
Message:
zz
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:45:32 (EDT)
From: BTDT
Email: None
To: All
Subject: M answering or himself
Message:
This entire sordid CAC episode is revealing in that, as far as I can understand, all anyone here ever wanted was Maharaji to answer questions which pertain only to him, and perhaps EV as it applies to him. The questions are valid. Instead what happens? This veiled vindetta unleashes a torrent of venum from people who are claiming to be in such a state of blissful harmony, under the guise of protecting the master. These questions aren't unreasonable, so why go to such extremes? He himself says, 'Ask your questions' in video after video-does that only apply to aspirants? Are they told anythng other than watch another video? Has Timmi ever received an answer regarding her church registry question?

One thing I feel quite certain about is this- anyone here who went to knowledge went with an open heart. We all experienced our own open heart. Nevermind that Maharaji wasn't/isn't deserving of such a holy thing. For a human being to be so dedicated to that love and devotion, is unbelievable. And that no one can take away. Not Maharaji, not Ev, not CAC, not even premies' spiteful actions. And they can't claim credit for it either. It was each individual person's quest. We, each and everyone one of us, were all questing for the highest thing possible in this life. I won't let anyone take that away, and I hope no one else here does either, no matter how badly they were harmed. That heart is untouchable to anyone but our own self. Maharaji always claimed he had claim to it but really, it is ours, and ours alone. If we can tap back in, however we choose, and come from that potent place, then really, I don't feel there isn't anything that's not possible.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:18:41 (EDT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: ...the highest thing possible...
Message:
...to see infinity in a grain of sand etc.

Why do some people feel this need & others don't ?

I felt this need very strongly at one time & got ensnared by the pied piper as a consequence. My wife, on the other hand, is a confirmed atheist & doesn't understand what I'm on about. Whilst I find it difficult to accept that she has never had any curiosity in that line herself, accept it I must.

After a year since finding the EPO site, which wrecked my residual belief in rawat as God incarnate & brought back to my memory the early years of this trip & the things I did & thought then, I've gone from armchair meditator & believer that 'I'm all right Jack', through atheist, agnostic, enraged, depressed, & a shit load of other things.

Now I'm back to square one, & guess what, I still believe in God.

What a sucker; but believe me I'll never again put my trust in anyone or anything at all that claims to show me the way.

I won't talk to anyone about why I believe in God, & if it should ever come out in conversation that I do, I'll politely say fuck off it's none of your business.

Meanwhile there's the god impersonator, still hiding behind other people's money: FUCK HIM.

All the best: Pat Dorrity

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:34:53 (EDT)
From: Pat:C)
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Beautiful BTDT and Bin. Thanks [nt]
Message:
[nt]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 15:10:09 (EDT)
From: btdt
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: Re: M answering or himself
Message:
Okay, I accept what you're saying. I really don't know what else to call that part of a human being that is the best part. Has nothing to do with Maharaji, really. I'm nearly fifty. I'm a grandmother now. I see life in a much calmer way. I swear the universe bestows something on grandparents that I wish I had at 21.

Am I wrong to think that when each of us approached knowledge, we went from some place of deep something? I don't know the word to use. I just felt that was something so honorable that we each did and it galls me to the core to have that stolen. I don't see a whole lot of people in this world that made the attempts to do something like this. My speech is probably a little flowery, my teachers have accused me of that my entire life. But how dare the indoctrination of knowledge hijacking the English language so there's nothing left to describe what I see as the best in people here? Don't mean to irritate anyone. This has been the hardest thing I have ever gone through in my life. I got knowledge at the age of 21, over half my lifetime. There's no antidote or antibiotic except facing the truth head on. I understood Annie the other day saying she hasn't been very nice to be around. My family thought I was flipping out until I finally had the strenghth to tell them all I had learned.

I looked in my aging mother's face today over tea, and remembered all the times I made her cry, giving taking off on festival jaunts, driving initiators off to some unknown place and finally moving into the kooky ashram (nothing like what people here went through. We were sort of a laughing stock joke). She went on valium. So I sit there over tea and look into her face and think, my god, the pain and worry I caused her. Another premie was deprogrammed and called my parents to have me as well. To their credit, they didn't subject me to that. It may have taken all these years, but the truth is the best deprogrammer of all.

And at least for me, maybe not others, but that is what has hurt the most. Maharaji not being a real live manifestation of the lord incarnate and the 'love' that I felt in my heart. Everything else can go, but I'm not giving up the best in me and I won't give up the best in you or anyone else here. Never. We deserved some sort of credit for attempting to see the possibility of a living master.

Here's a little humor from Disney's The Lion King. I may not have all the words right. And I'm not reprinting it other than to say it brings a smile to my face.
Maybe I should have joined Disneyland instead of Divine Light Mission.
Mickey Mouse-Master Maharaji. Same initials!

---

---
--

'As you go through life you'll see
there is so much we don't understand
and the only thing we know
is things don't always go
the way we planned
but you'll see every day
that we'll never turn away
when it seems all your dreams
have undone
we will stand by your side
filled with hope and filled with pride
we are more than we are
we are one

If there's so much I must be
can I still just be me
the way I am
Can I trust in my own heart
Or am I just one part
Of some big plan

Even those who are gone
are with us as we go on
your journey has only begun
tears of pain
tears of joy
one thing nothing can destroy
is our pride deep inside
we are one

we are one you and I
we are like the earth and sky
one family under the sun
all the wisdom to lead
all the courage that you need
you will find when you see
we are one'- Disney's Lion King

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:46:29 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: btdt
Subject: Re: M answering or himself
Message:
Okay, I accept what you're saying. I really don't know what else to call that part of a human being that is the best part. Has nothing to do with Maharaji, really. I'm nearly fifty. I'm a grandmother now. I see life in a much calmer way. I swear the universe bestows something on grandparents that I wish I had at 21.

Am I wrong to think that when each of us approached knowledge, we went from some place of deep something? I don't know the word to use. I just felt that was something so honorable that we each did and it galls me to the core to have that stolen. I don't see a whole lot of people in this world that made the attempts to do something like this. My speech is probably a little flowery, my teachers have accused me of that my entire life. But how dare the indoctrination of knowledge hijacking the English language so there's nothing left to describe what I see as the best in people here? Don't mean to irritate anyone. This has been the hardest thing I have ever gone through in my life. I got knowledge at the age of 21, over half my lifetime. There's no antidote or antibiotic except facing the truth head on. I understood Annie the other day saying she hasn't been very nice to be around. My family thought I was flipping out until I finally had the strenghth to tell them all I had learned.

I looked in my aging mother's face today over tea, and remembered all the times I made her cry, giving taking off on festival jaunts, driving initiators off to some unknown place and finally moving into the kooky ashram (nothing like what people here went through. We were sort of a laughing stock joke). She went on valium. So I sit there over tea and look into her face and think, my god, the pain and worry I caused her. Another premie was deprogrammed and called my parents to have me as well. To their credit, they didn't subject me to that. It may have taken all these years, but the truth is the best deprogrammer of all.

And at least for me, maybe not others, but that is what has hurt the most. Maharaji not being a real live manifestation of the lord incarnate and the 'love' that I felt in my heart. Everything else can go, but I'm not giving up the best in me and I won't give up the best in you or anyone else here. Never. We deserved some sort of credit for attempting to see the possibility of a living master.

Here's a little humor from Disney's The Lion King. I may not have all the words right. And I'm not reprinting it other than to say it brings a smile to my face.
Maybe I should have joined Disneyland instead of Divine Light Mission.
Mickey Mouse-Master Maharaji. Same initials!

---

---
--

'As you go through life you'll see
there is so much we don't understand
and the only thing we know
is things don't always go
the way we planned
but you'll see every day
that we'll never turn away
when it seems all your dreams
have undone
we will stand by your side
filled with hope and filled with pride
we are more than we are
we are one

If there's so much I must be
can I still just be me
the way I am
Can I trust in my own heart
Or am I just one part
Of some big plan

Even those who are gone
are with us as we go on
your journey has only begun
tears of pain
tears of joy
one thing nothing can destroy
is our pride deep inside
we are one

we are one you and I
we are like the earth and sky
one family under the sun
all the wisdom to lead
all the courage that you need
you will find when you see
we are one'- Disney's Lion King


---

I see what we did as incredibly arrogant. I'm not saying I know what
is true for you -- I don't; I can't. I have to reject cult-speak for
my own reasons; it grates on my aesthetic; puts thoughts into my head
that aren't my own, nor those of anyone I still admire.
I have a lot of new vocabulary I didn't have then; some of it will
prove as stilted and mechanical as the old cult-speak was, for me.

I know I've picked up some 12-step program jargon over the years,
having attended. Some of it was useful; a lot of it was .. jargon.

I was sixteen; and arrogant enough to think I'd found The Lord.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 14:07:08 (EDT)
From: Timmi
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: Re: M answering or himself
Message:
No, no reply to my question about being a church. Will let you know.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 10:48:01 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: BTDT
Subject: Re: M answering or himself
Message:
This entire sordid CAC episode is revealing in that, as far as I can understand, all anyone here ever wanted was Maharaji to answer questions which pertain only to him, and perhaps EV as it applies to him. The questions are valid. Instead what happens? This veiled vindetta unleashes a torrent of venum from people who are claiming to be in such a state of blissful harmony, under the guise of protecting the master. These questions aren't unreasonable, so why go to such extremes? He himself says, 'Ask your questions' in video after video-does that only apply to aspirants? Are they told anythng other than watch another video? Has Timmi ever received an answer regarding her church registry question?

One thing I feel quite certain about is this- anyone here who went to knowledge went with an open heart. We all experienced our own open heart. Nevermind that Maharaji wasn't/isn't deserving of such a holy thing. For a human being to be so dedicated to that love and devotion, is unbelievable. And that no one can take away. Not Maharaji, not Ev, not CAC, not even premies' spiteful actions. And they can't claim credit for it either. It was each individual person's quest. We, each and everyone one of us, were all questing for the highest thing possible in this life. I won't let anyone take that away, and I hope no one else here does either, no matter how badly they were harmed. That heart is untouchable to anyone but our own self. Maharaji always claimed he had claim to it but really, it is ours, and ours alone. If we can tap back in, however we choose, and come from that potent place, then really, I don't feel there isn't anything that's not possible.


---

'With an open heart' is cult-speak. I never used that phrase in
the past (although I admit, I was only sixteen years old when the
cult gave me indoctrination into that phrase -- even so, I must
reject it on aesthetic grounds).

The 'heart' is a muchly-abused term, just as 'heartland' GW Bush's
abuses show nothing of 'heart' in any form I can discern.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:17:51 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: a0aji
Subject: Yes, I definitely agree
Message:
This 'heart' stuff is bullshit. Sorry, BTDT, but it is. all that love, warmth and morality you love in yourself and others? Brain. Blood? Heart.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:16:30 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, but BTDT had a point
Message:
I don't like the term 'heart' either, because it's meaningless the way Maharaji tries to use it (it seems to be his new way to say 'the experience of the energy that is god', which is what he used to say), but BTDT is very correct that all the 'good stuff' we experienced when we were in the place comes from the same place we experience such things since we left. It all has to do with your own viewpoint and attitude towards things.

Everything I experienced in the Maharaji cult that was 'good' had either to do with my own openness and sincereity/idealism, or it had to do with being around some very nice people. It nothing whatsoever to do with either Maharaji or the meditation techniques. Maharaji and the meditation techniques were just objects of my dedication and devotion. Some might say they were the objects of my 'heart,' but that's a terrible term.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:27:41 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ok 'open kidney' for chrissakes haha NT
Message:
xx
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:05:29 (EDT)
From: it only a matter
Email: None
To: All
Subject: of when it's gonna happen
Message:
please continue what you're doing caca
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:08:51 (EDT)
From: [Blank]
Email: None
To: it only a matter
Subject: Re: of when it's gonna happen
Message:
scroll down to the defemation/libel.......
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:10:33 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: [Blank]
Subject: Are Your Base All Belong Two Uss! [nt]
Message:
ayb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:20:33 (EDT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: All
Subject: MariAnne
Message:
read you e-mail.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 05:27:26 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Re: MariAnne
Message:
Yes, could you please do that Marianne.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 08:20:48 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: MariAnne
Message:
Could you read it to *me*, Marianne? [Just chiming in here.]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 03:49:07 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: Okay, CAC I surrender. You've got eDrek
Message:
This CAC thingy has taught me a lesson and that is that I should not stoop to their level. Most of the stuff that they quoted me as saying was stupid irresponsible stuff. I did say inapproriate things about premies other than Rawat several times. I don't think I realized how much of a yenta I was until Joe called me on it several times. (Maybe that's why Joe isn't on the list.) He does not make ad hominems as much as I do against innocent premies in thrall to Jujuhead. From now on I will curb my temper as well.

So, CAC, I apologise to those people like George Blodwell, David Smith, Belkis Shah and Marolyn Rawat for the nasty things I said about them. Now, if I give you more salacious details about myself and Thelma the Thunderstealing Bitch will you take the other expremies' names off the list because they have not done anything other than attack Rev Rawat and he's fair game, a public persona who got wealthy on donated money.

Roger, when did you put a penis on Rawat? CAC says: ''One of his pastimes is taking photos of public persons, adding bare breasts or genitalia to them, and showing them on the net.'' I mean did I miss something or what. I've seen the mala titty dance but must have missed the swinging lila lulu thingy. Could you post that pic again please?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:02:53 (EDT)
From: Cedron
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: At the foot of the mountain
Message:
The beast hath roared
And all around are in grave disarray.
Yet they that believeth in the beast
Shall live to know dismay.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:40:32 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Okay, CAC I surrender. You've got eDrek
Message:
I told you so:)

you really need to think twice from now on.

Some entertainment is due

Say I swear I won't do it again

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:46:11 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: We're too synchronized, Salam
Message:
I was just praising your post below. I hope very much to meet you one day. Bless your cotton socks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:03:48 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: We're too synchronized, Salam
Message:
when am pissed off,I don't make typos.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 02:20:42 (EDT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Please enlighten me
Message:
I haven't read this forum for a while and all of sudden there's all this stuff about cyberstalking and it's being attributed to premies. I went over there and read some of the stuff, and have read some of Joe's and Pat's posts. Can someone summarize in a few lines what's happening? How are you determining who's doing it? Why's it being called a 'net jihad' -- (I know what a jihad is--but why is this being called one?) Is this for real? If so, I mean if premies are behind it, it's a huge mistake.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:02:28 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Premies are behind CAC
Message:
Who else? CAC says: ''For several years, a few persons, working together, have tried to damage the personal and professional lives of many persons interested in Maharaji's teachings.'' What they really mean is ''damage Maharaji's fake reputation.''

I first used the phrase ''net jihad'' which is a bit hyperbolical but people who know me understand that I use flowery words too often sometimes.

Basically it means that the attempted premie refutation of expremies' claims has shifted from the Mr Nice Guy tactics of publishing warm-fuzzy revisionism on official Mahrajism sites to a nastier approach - to attack and intimidate expremies personally. I first used the phrase to describe a warning that I received from a longtime premie friend last week.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 11:35:19 (EDT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Thanks Pat
Message:
Thanks Pat. This is really strange. It'll backfire.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 02:00:21 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: All
Subject: This Forum really sucks!!
Message:
Hiya:

I suppose someone must have already pointed this out, but every time I click on a post I get a cookie request, and after answering 'no' a dumbass popup advertisement that I have to close. EVERY TIME! It's like the Argyle cockroaches all over again. Sorry, but it's offensive. I don't accept cookies from strangers. No way. See you when someone starts a decent forum, with halfway competent software (if that ever happens again). The little things count.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:32:11 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Come see what we're talking about on EPO:CT
Message:
I think you do need to erect a forum, immediately (if that means
sending money in for this one you're reading now, do that, I'd
suggest).

Eventually, a few of us believe, there's going to be a need for
something a bit more .. studied than this place can ever be.
Hotboards suffers from several key defects.

Please join the discussion, now in progress, on the EPO:CT forum.
[ EPO:CT Forum Sign-Up Help URL ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:45:18 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Just run Proxomitron and it all goes away
Message:
http://proxomitron.cjb.net/
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 22:20:22 (EDT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Just run Proxomitron and it all goes away
Message:
Roger:

Thanks. Proxomitron eems to work OK, but slows things down a bit, and confuses some secure sites I've tried to use. The format of this forum still sucks, but not significantly worse than a number of other web based forums. I like the old frames version of Forum V the best.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:41:35 (EDT)
From: Carlos
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Gerry, if you want to set up a system
Message:
Hiya:

I suppose someone must have already pointed this out, but every time I click on a post I get a cookie request, and after answering 'no' a dumbass popup advertisement that I have to close. EVERY TIME! It's like the Argyle cockroaches all over again. Sorry, but it's offensive. I don't accept cookies from strangers. No way. See you when someone starts a decent forum, with halfway competent software (if that ever happens again). The little things count.

--Scott


---

that would let you take donations to upgrade this thing, one that would make accountability easy and tax problems difficult, you could eMail me for that purpose. PatC has the address. Jim would probably vet any sugestions I made to you, for free, before you implemented them. (Having advice of counsel on such shit is always a good idea, and I'm no lawyer. (I just hire them as needed>)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:17:05 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Gerry, upgrade please!
Message:
Gerry,

Could we switch to the deluxe version please!!! These ads are a pain in the arse (as they say in the country of my birth). I'm sure you'll be able to raise the money:-)

And what about archives - do we care?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:26:28 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Gerry, upgrade please!
Message:
Here's ten bucks. If twelve of us do it we pay for a year of the delux version. Yes, archives are fairly important. I save my essays but I also like to see the context, the thread, in which those appeared but it is not ALL important of it's a pain in the arse for you to do. But I do miss those grinning heads - better than this ;)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:08:20 (EDT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Gerry, upgrade please!
Message:
Tell me where to send the money, these cookie requests and popups are drving me crazy!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 08:49:14 (EDT)
From: BeenThereDoneThat
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: Gerry, upgrade please!
Message:
I'll kick in ten dollars. Where would I send it? And since there's a person with the name 'Been There' I could go to initials to avoid confusion.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:23:40 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Gerry, upgrade please!
Message:
with the free forum u can't archive. So gl the getting smart not like what they say on cyberbullshit porn site needs to get his ass in gear [like they say down under].

salam the good boy

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 03:01:28 (EDT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Re: This Forum really sucks!!
Message:
I think gl knows this. At one stage hotboard used porn picture and I decided not to use them, that is why I went to bravenet.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:06:28 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Bravenet is classy but
Message:
This is what we've got for now. It costs ten bucks a month to get rid of the pop-ups. Wanna pay, Scott T?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:03:30 (EDT)
From: Like It Is
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Foolishment
Message:
Our story so far....

For years people publicly slag The Lord Of the Universe, maybe taking quotes, old photos, talk about his kids, affairs, drinking, accuse him of murder and pedophilia. He nibbles around the edges in terms of delaing with this, but figures never mind.

A little later His followers get pissed off, express themselves, and become targeted by extremists who post personal information and make harrassing calls and letters. Some think this is justified, and bully the ones who don't out of the club.

Then other followers get really pissed, figuring that these folks have it coming, so they post --you guessed it -- quotes, old photos, accusations of pedophila and other criminal stuff.

Then everybody flips out.

Have I missed something? Oh, please, not the justifications ('we're on a mission from God!!' or 'we're saving the world from a fraud').

Hmmmm?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:30:05 (EDT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Like It Is
Subject: Who is foolish?
Message:
For years people publicly slag The Lord Of the Universe, maybe taking quotes, old photos, talk about his kids, affairs, drinking, accuse him of murder and pedophilia. He nibbles around the edges in terms of delaing with this, but figures never mind. This characterization is completely wrong. Maharaji hasn't 'nibbled around the edges,' he out and out lies. For example, there is a video clip of him on the Elan Vital website in which he lies, blantantly, about never having claimed to be the incarnation of god, when anyone who was in his cult from about 1975-1983 at least, know that's completely wrong. Now, we all know that Mahararji has an interest in lying, because it's very embarrassing for him in his new redition of 'the master' for people to know about that. Or else, he really is as delusional as some people think, and has convinced himself that it's true.

A little later His followers get pissed off, express themselves, and become targeted by extremists who post personal information and make harrassing calls and letters. Some think this is justified, and bully the ones who don't out of the club.

What extremists are you talking about, and what personal information and harrassing calls and letters are you talking about? Do you mean the current CAC hate site? If that's true, I agree. If you mean publishing personal information about Maharaji that ex-premies have done, I disagree there is anything wrong with that, because Maharaji portrayed himself as the perfect master and was always actually kind of messed up. He is a public figure, and the fact that he so carefully hid his negative qualities like drinking, drugs, sex, etc., by 'x-rating' premies and other means, is another reason the truth should come out.

The bottom line is that the cult, Maharaji and premies have never denied what has been said about Maharaji by people who know. They don't and can't do it because it's true. It's painful for them to think that the person they worship is kind of a jerk, so they attack the people who told them the truth. This is an old story in cults. When they feel threatened, they attack and they don't do it fairly either.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:13:14 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Like It Is
Subject: Good question!
Message:
Have I missed something?

Yup.

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Date: Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:11:18 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Like It Is
Subject: NO MORE HATE
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:28:20 (EDT)
From: ninkyzin
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: NO MORE HATE
Message:
yep. hate sucks
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:00:54 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A question for Victoria
Message:
Dear Victoria,

could you please let me know if you and your friends intend to add my name to the list of cyberstalkers. I am not sure why you would do this but then I wouldn't be very surprised if you did.

I would very much appreciate a reply to this letter. And as you apparently present yourself as someone who is committed to the truth and who wants to fight abuse I trust that your sense of integrity will enable you to give me a straight answer.

I think I might have dashed off a post about wishing that Jagdeo would die at some stage and I am wondering if you will use this against me.

Do you think it is appropriate to stalk people who have been stalked?

I anticipate an honest and direct reply very soon.

Dr Abigail Bray.

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Date: Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:25:56 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: A question for Victoria
Message:
Dear Abi:

I sincerely don't know... It seems that the people exposed there are those that took advantage of your misfortune to disgorge their heatred. As you can see from the profiles, these people are quite a bundle. Many of them are pornographers, and one of them, Jim Heller defends people that commit the henious crime you seem to have suffered. This Jim HELLer even says ' I am a defense lawyer and I am proud of it'. Go figure why you keep their company....

I guess you can send an email to them and see what they say.
[ Page Link ]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 08:50:51 (EDT)
From: Silvia
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Re: A question for Victoria
Message:
Adorable Victoria:

Do you know if you are going to include my photo and 'satsangs' I gave at these forums? I will like to know, so I can beging talking to my lawyers.

Is not everyday that one encounters GOD in person, you know? I really literally became mentally ill being a devotee of your Guru Maharaji, The Lord of The Universe on 1974. I was so young and naive that I am afraid somebody made a big mistake screwing my head up so, so bad.

God in person asked me to surrender to him and leave everything and I couldn't cope. I had dreams. I was a model back then, an aspiring artist, a professional dancer. A young, young, woman, and Maharaji screwed up my head with all his brainwashing and insane propositions.

Such a good job he did that I almost succeded three times killing myself. No. You cannot say I was sick before meeting GOD MAHARAJI, no.

I was a happy person and my photos can corroborate that. I was happily married after receiving GOD's MAHARAJI'S Knowledge but his demand for me to succeed realizing his knowledge made me believe I needed to live in an ashram to be a true devotee and what followed has been a life of conflict and dualities I do not wish to my worse enemy. Well, he is, but hey, I know that his life is not that pink anyway: He is a miserable person in his private life. I can recover someday, with good therapy. I doubt he will ever give away his bussiness and for that his insanity: His lie got tooo big!

I wonder if you are going to put my name. Are you going to make fun of the fact that I put myself under a train because I couldn't love your stinky master enough, as he said OI should love him? I couldn't surrender to him: All along I had such a dilemma. The confussion created by his satsangs over 26 years was great.

ARE YOU ALL GOING TO DEFEND THE EVIL OPRESSOR OF SOULS MASTER NOMATTERWHAT AND THINK YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH IT? For how long can you get away with your shinnanigans and what is it going to happen when you cannot anymore?

All your dirty practices will be revealed, further, and you will pay for each one of your actions, all of you actions. That is how the law works: You have rights, but victims have more rights. Think about that.

Do yourselves a favor: STOP!

THE BEST IS YET TO COME!

As you said. 'Holy' people, respetable, honest, sincere loving people do not behave like you, vultures!

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 01:16:08 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Silvia
Subject: feel no shame
Message:
Dear Silvia,

I'm sorry to hear that you tried to kill yourself a few times and that you were so damaged by it all. No-one should experience such profound pain.

Try not to let it get to you though. I'm sure they wont put your name on their hit list. I think the CAC site has a limited life anyway.

Don't let it get to you. Take care of yourself.

Best wishes

Abi

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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 13:26:32 (EDT)
From: silvia, afraid of maharaji's POWER
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: no shame
Message:
After 12 years of therapy though...

Yes, I explained once the details at F7 about the suicide attempts and also those of my ex-husband, still a premie.

I just sniffed a fresh cut gardenia from my patio garden... and no, I don't associate its aroma with globber anymore. Is his favorite flower but he didn't made its smell as I used to think. Poor me, cult member dreaming he was creator and destroyer of ALL. LOL

Is not getting to me; I am getting better everyday but still I have a working memory and remember how my craziness started and what happened afterwards. 'God', the one I prayed to asking to have love in my heart for globber didn't answered and I kept suffering for the doubts I felt over the years about globber not been genuine. The damage the cult inflicted me in my mind is real and is no way I can justify it or think I did it to myself. I only can say, by all I have learned in EPO that globber's lies got to me for too long, two and a half decades and they kept me confused to high limits. Now is healing time.

Although, I believe Globber and associates need to begin taking responsibility for the damage they inflict in people's minds throught the ADORATION/DEVOTION trip, well masked, but nevertheless it is just that.

Is not about you as he says lately, but about him being put in pedestal. What a horrible 'god'.

Thanks for your kind words, sincerely.

Be good yoruself.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 03:35:23 (EDT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Ahh the sensitive Mr horse pet food
Message:
Truth, the man committed to truth, you are a right hoot.

What could gm do that would allow 'internet stalkers' to be on his case?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 01:15:17 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: is that an answer?
Message:
Right now I am suffering from reading too much sleeze. I feel polluted and shocked.

I have a child and so do a couple of other women I know and we are frightened of what you and your friends might do to us.

I'm taking a break.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 00:56:34 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Victorian hypocrisy
Message:
Vickypoo says: ''I sincerely don't know.''

You wouldn't know sincerity if slapped you in the face like a wet fish.

Miss Thing gets her tits in a tangle. Oh dear, oh blush: ''Many of them are pornographers..'' The pussy is shocked!

Darling, what I create is erotica. What I write here is pornography (which is the Greek for writing about prostitutes.) I'm writing about the prostitution of the truth by Rev ''purity'' Rawat and his minions like you.

You are such a phoney. Get real for once in your life or are you too far gone?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:06:04 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Wrong Victoria
Message:
Victoria Bitters is Catweasel. Victoria Clemmens is some-one else.VC answered you not me.
Look down below. I said that I am not involved so there is not much advice I can give you. I believe that there is not a very intelligent
bunch of people here OR there is a very dishonest group of people here.
Think carefully. Who had access to all of the info published to date?
Who gave them access to that material? Me? Yeah sure. You guys goofed
, you let a nobody become a somebody. You knew that this nice new poor X was a wild and clever cyber geek . AND YOU GAVE HIM ACCESS TO YOUR WHOLE TRIP> You are the stupid bastards who let it happen. Blame yourselves. I could see it a mile off. (And Rob!) But you guys are so hell bent on your agro little trip that you completely overlook the MOST obvious things .
And who was it who let them in? JIM HELLER!!! Yah dumb schmuck...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 08:55:22 (EDT)
From: SILVIA
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Wrong cat
Message:
But because you think we are wrong there is still a possibility that we are right, logic says, correct? Doesn't the master teach about doubts? You have doubts as I had them. Well, guess what? HE IS FAKE! YOU ARE WRONG CAT, NOT US! YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO THE DOUBTS HE SO STRONGLY ASKS YOU NOT TO.

'That' which you display is not REAL freedom but cult mentality and fanaticism.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:29:43 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: SILVIA
Subject: Re: Wrong cat
Message:
Look it's pointless screaming your warcries at me you silly twit. You've got nothing to say. You are like a fart in a bottle . Every now and then you take your lid off and it's all supposed to make sense , the penny will drop and I'm floating in the same watery excess you call home.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 07:55:38 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Wrong but possible right, Cat
Message:
All Bazza had priveleged access to is posters' IP addresses (which CD has as well) - he did not have access to our 'whole trip'. Yes, it could be Bazza behind CAC, but without further evidence there's no need to jump to that conclusion.

And it wasn't Jim Heller who made Bazza FA, I think it was Nigel (though it could have been Anth). Yes, it was a mistake in hindsight, but we're such nice trusting people:-)

John the trust first, ask questions later

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 05:30:09 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Bazza?
Message:
So is Bazza behind all of this? I find this so hard to believe. Really?
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 06:49:20 (EDT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: What's so hard to believe Abi ? nt
Message:
zz
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Date: Fri, Aug 24, 2001 at 01:26:30 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Re: What's so hard to believe Abi ? nt
Message:
I think the paranoia here gets a bit out of hand. I really don't think Bazza had anything to do with the CAC horror.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 05:52:35 (EDT)
From: name withheld-afraid of Rawat Cult
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Bazza was like
Message:
the cool guy premie who spaced out K for a couple of years, returned to the fold and was immediately given top flight Service.

In this case he was given the ability to access info much to early in his so-called recovery from the cult...this is not a condemnation of anyone for giving him the job as a F.A...it's just a description of what appeared to happen

Was he a cult plant? Was he the infamous Rob? Did he use his position as FA to gather info? Here we are in the land of uncertainty again!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 10:08:02 (EDT)
From: another ex that can't say his name
Email: None
To: name withheld-afraid of Rawat Cult
Subject: maybe it's Bazza
Message:
He has the ability to join infiltrate groups. Bet you he is on it.

Oh no, they might send him across the world to film us and do that video thing. sheesh, I think I better go and have a face change.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 06:04:26 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: name withheld-afraid of Rawat Cult
Subject: thanks
Message:
for that. Pity that you are afraid of the cult.

It's too much isn't it.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 06:15:13 (EDT)
From: name withheld-afraid of Rawat Cult
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: thanks/My apologies to you
Message:
While I'm not on some guilt trip about the horrible atrocities you and the others suffered/are suffering, every time I see a post by you or Susan, I'm reminded that I was giving money to the Rawat gang that helped perpetuate the crimes against you/others and the on going cover-up that continues to this day. I may know someone who may have also been victimized by Jagdeo but her mother is still deep in the cult and won't pursue the matter.

I don't know if you'll ever be able to put all this behind you but I truly hope you can. You are unbelievably brave.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 20:58:41 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: name withheld-afraid of Rawat Cult
Subject: another Jagdeo victim?
Message:
Dear name withheld,

sad that this person you mentioned doesn't have the support of her mother. I think this is all too common. I expect there might be lots of others in that position. A culture of denial. Maybe some of those children grew up to be premies themselves and have shut off from what happened to them, maybe they have parents who they know wouldn't support them, or maybe their parents just drifted into Knowlege and then left and wondered through lots of other alternative spaces. Often kids who get abused have their boundaries broken so they end up vulnerable to more abuse. Who knows. Just hope they got some help and aren't too damaged. But chances are they are. Too sad.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:22:49 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: My apologies, Pussy
Message:
You said: ''Victoria Bitters is Catweasel. Victoria Clemmens is some-one else. VC answered you not me. Look down below. I said that I am not involved so there is not much advice I can give you.''

Me: Actually I was kind of shocked that you would pull the ooh they're pornographers trick. My apologies. It is hard to know what's what with anonymice so I made a mistake. I'm sorry.

You: ''I believe that there is not a very intelligent bunch of people here OR there is a very dishonest group of people here.''

Me: I've met most of them and they're warm, smart and sensible folk. You would like them. Again all I can say is that it's hard to know what's what with anonymice.


You: ''Think carefully. Who had access to all of the info published to date? Who gave them access to that material? Me? Yeah sure. You guys goofed, you let a nobody become a somebody. You knew that this nice new poor X was a wild and clever cyber geek . AND YOU GAVE HIM ACCESS TO YOUR WHOLE TRIP> You are the stupid bastards who let it happen. Blame yourselves. I could see it a mile off. (And Rob!) But you guys are so hell bent on your agro little trip that you completely overlook the MOST obvious things.''

It's easy to see stuff with hindsight. I can't remember you ever saying this before he left. Well, I suppose you wanted it to happen anyway. I hope not but I can't blame you since you are a premie. Anyway - he's in your camp now.


You said: ''And who was it who let them in? JIM HELLER!!! Yah dumb schmuck...''

Really, Jim, is this true? I thought he got in because of the FA at the time. I know he was very convincing. He even had me fooled.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:49:04 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: My apologies, Pussy
Message:
If you check with Sir Dave you will find that on both occaisons I questioned the bona fides of the punters involved. I think if you are honest with yourselves and admit that there is nothing honorable about the methods you have used to date (AND BELIEVE ME - I KNOW ABOUT THEM) , this is surely 'Right Whack'. I almost toyed with the idea of becoming Boris's live-in lover for the fun of it. The facts are more fun. Give it away Pat. It's all a bad joke.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 05:07:58 (EDT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: You and M would love us to just walk
Message:
But, that won't happen. I agree that MY methods have not always been honorable. I am learning just liked I learned to walk away from Rev Rawat. Others deserve that chance too.

I know you will not see it that way because you are enthralled by the juju. It never really worked for me. I have always benefitted most from my own efforts. There is nothing that you can say that will convince me that gurujism is good. Humans need to evolve away from that. It is no longer cool.

Of course, with the anonymity thingy you never know who you're talking to, do you, Bazza? Now don't accuse me of paranoia just because you don't understand my jokes.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:36:25 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Re: You and M would love us to just walk
Message:
No, no I get it. But the facts are you will not have much choice Pat. Read the writing on the wall. Dave did. Frankly I agree with him . None of this is worth it - for anyone. You do not have widespread support. You are isolated and paranoid. And it is generally of your own creation
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 09:56:43 (EDT)
From: BTDT
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Re: You and M would love us to just walk
Message:
I would say Pat has very widespread support. And if any one here is getting dished, I imagine they would have support backing them up anywhere ie work, etc etc.
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Date: Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 23:54:44 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Catweasel, you are so sick
Message:
hey, mofo! we know it's you running this fucking sicko witch hunt. You must really be proud of yourself, aren't you?

Catweasel/Victoria, I picture you sorta like the creep in Silence of the Lambs where all many of us are in your basement pit.

I'm wondering whether you are sitting naked and furiously jacking off when you respond as you have to Abi here. Come on, man, you can tell me, I'm your fiend.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 04:09:12 (EDT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Catweasel, you are so sick
Message:
Look dickweed read the post above. As for jacking off over you ??? It would never stand up.....
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 00:08:24 (EDT)
From: Victoria
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Abi: I t;old you
Message:
I'm wondering whether you are sitting naked and furiously jacking off when you respond as you have to Abi here. Come on, man, you can tell me, I'm your fiend.

This is the company you keep....

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 12:51:43 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek with hair on my palms
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: Re: Abi: I t;old you
Message:
Oh, Church Lady, you are so righteous and pious. Save me from the wickedness that lies within. Rip through me with your cleansing fire and make me see the Lord's Holy Light once again. I turned away, but you can turn me around and bugger me deep and hard with that magnificient strap-on of yours hidden neath your habit. I can't fucking wait!
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 17:58:45 (EDT)
From: a0a =====|) ji
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek with hair on my palms
Subject: ROFL!
Message:
Oh, Church Lady, you are so righteous and pious. Save me from the wickedness that lies within. Rip through me with your cleansing fire and make me see the Lord's Holy Light once again. I turned away, but you can turn me around and bugger me deep and hard with that magnificient strap-on of yours hidden neath your habit. I can't fucking wait!


---

nt

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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 01:25:57 (EDT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Victoria
Subject: No MORE ABUSE NO MORE HATE
Message:
[nt]
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Date: Thurs, Aug 23, 2001 at 18:04:21 (EDT)
From: a0aji
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Re: No MORE ABUSE NO MORE HATE
Message:
[nt]
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