Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 16:41:34 (GMT)
From: May 18, 2001 To: May 29, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


creativejani -:- There are probably people reading who haven't ... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:44:05 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Plenty of these on this site -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 14:20:18 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- Thanks! It takes a while to get around it all..nt -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:02:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- It's a huge site -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:35:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Is this the link? (and site map) -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 02:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Yes, I saw the 'toon strip.... -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:42:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- OK, here's the URL (my link failed, natch!) -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 17:03:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- OK, here's the URL - active link for novices -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 19:03:11 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- there is a lot around creativejani -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:22:20 (GMT)
__ chuck -:- There are probably people reading who haven't ... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:56:28 (GMT)

Sam Hardy -:- An End To Suffering -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:10:33 (GMT)
__ sb -:- An End To Suffering? Which one? -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:08:51 (GMT)
__ __ Sam Hardy -:- An End To Suffering? Which one? -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:51:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- childish NT -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 12:42:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sam Hardy -:- not to mention true (nt) -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 02:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- AND?????? -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 16:59:37 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Animals dont get these problems, -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:24:08 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- Animals dont get these problems, -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:01:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- I like your post. (nt) -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:16:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sb -:- Love is real - aha -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 12:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ clh -:- An end to suffering -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:39:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sam Hardy -:- An end to suffering -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:47:08 (GMT)
__ __ Sam Hardy -:- Animals dont get these problems, -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- neurotic chimps -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 01:24:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sam Hardy -:- neurotic chimps -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 01:39:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- indiginous, natural...why is it better? (ot) -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 19:43:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Tangent, I reckon (ot) -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 21:06:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- yes, I like forests too(ot) -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 21:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- yes, I thought of people too(ot) -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:05:53 (GMT)

CHUCK -:- quetzalcoatl -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:37:53 (GMT)
__ sb -:- what happen to you? -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 02:47:47 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- How many incarnations is this now ? nt -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 01:35:18 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- If you roll quetzi and sock him in water -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:37:41 (GMT)
__ __ CHUCK -:- If you roll quetzi and sock him in water -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Am saying that you are a boofhead. -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:09:20 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- quetzalcoatl -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:55:08 (GMT)
__ __ CHUCK -:- quetzalcoatl -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:59:14 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- quetzalcoatl : get him to rip your ...... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:49:21 (GMT)
__ __ CHUCK -:- quetzalcoatl : get him to rip your ...... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:57:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- FUCK OFF !!!!!!! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:10:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CHUCK -:- FUCK OFF !!!!!!! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:17:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ calling FA -:- thanks bin -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:15:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- S. America stuff... reminds me of the Celestine -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:43:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ clh -:- S. America stuff... reminds me of the Celestine -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:55:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Oops.. sorry .. geography v. boring at school! nt -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:57:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CHUCK -:- quetzalcoatl the high priest of Peyote -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:49:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy_Warp -:- quetzalcoatl the high priest of Peyote -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:55:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ chuck -:- I remember the 'acid within' satsang!!!... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:01:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- lsd can be made from morning glory seeds, yes. -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 09:52:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ clh -:- I remember the 'acid within' satsang!!!... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:19:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CHUCK -:- I remember the 'acid within' satsang!!!... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:35:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- YOU are acting like a plant. Scram! -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 02:52:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ clh -:- I remember the 'acid within' satsang!!!... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy warp -:- Chuck ... here's me Email address nt -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:03:56 (GMT)

Joe -:- For the Record re EPO Events -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:27:21 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- great post Joe -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 20:01:33 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- For the Record re Ex-Premie Organization Events -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- PS I've been angry and did not apologise to you -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:33:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Patrick, I am not angry or resentful about this -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:10:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Joe, you're a kind and good man NT -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 21:01:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- PS I've been angry and did not apologise to you -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:41:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Sweetie Dahling -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:51:35 (GMT)
__ bill -:- If your thick Im jealous:)...nt -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:08:08 (GMT)

Premette -:- Maharaji is FAT. How FAT is he......? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:27:36 (GMT)
__ chuck -:- Maharaji is FAT. How FAT is he......? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:51:42 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- fatter than me or even fatter than I -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:43:15 (GMT)
__ __ chuck -:- fatter than me or even fatter than I -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:47:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- sure Bob is a good friend of mine :) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:49:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ chuck -:- sure Bob is a good friend of mine :) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:54:33 (GMT)
__ chuck -:- Maharaji is FAT. How FAT is he......? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:42:55 (GMT)
__ freepeople -:- Maharaji is FAT. How FAT is he......? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:52:45 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Now look, folks ... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:36:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- Now look, folks ... what's the real issue? -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:37:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- But he wants to hide it. -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 02:58:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Fat is a Premieist Issue... no seriously folks... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:16:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC The Fat Fag -:- Amen, Moldy and cq .....NT -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:54:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Amen, Moldy and cq .....NT -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:05:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I love being fat. When I was a skinny little sissy -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 06:48:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- hahahahahahahahaha -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 17:02:02 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Rolling Stone Article Comics on EPO !! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:55:24 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Rather embarrassing what! (nt) -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 03:01:57 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- He's the filter,not the filament... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:18:53 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Rolling Stone Article Comics on EPO !! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:42:33 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Hilarious! Great Work Jean-Michel (nt) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Funny how current the cartoon seems -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:32:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- My thoughts exactly, Richard:))) n/t -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:31:30 (GMT)

jim boeger -:- People who don't post their email addresses -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:40:46 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- People who don't post their email addresses -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 16:20:25 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i think i used to know you once. are you--? -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 10:42:43 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Now that's what I call wisdom -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:39:44 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Now that's what I call wisdom -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:47:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- the wisdom of the pussy monkey -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 12:04:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy_warp -:- pussy monkey -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 13:27:05 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- People who don't wear name badges and walk around -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:00:36 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Speaking of name badges, in Afganistan ... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:03:09 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- that me dear is nonsense -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:49:07 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- People who don't post their email addresses -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:01:07 (GMT)
__ cq -:- ... and your bank account number ...? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:41:22 (GMT)
__ E Bai Gum-Ladd -:- Who rattled your cage? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:08:35 (GMT)
__ sb -:- we have our reasons -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:57:21 (GMT)
__ Way -:- A book recommendation for you -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:47:02 (GMT)
__ __ jim boeger -:- A book recommendation for you -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:59:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- FA:got some snot here for deletion[post above].(nt -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:33:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- A book recommendation for you - good idea, Way -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:51:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- A book recommendation: fucking brill post Pat -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jim bo -:- A book recommendation for you - good idea, Way -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:06:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- A book recommendation for you - good idea, Way -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:36:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- All right then if you want to take that tone -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jimbo -:- All right then if you want to take that tone -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:22:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I emailed you -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:26:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Now that's not nice, jim..... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:32:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jimbo -:- Now that's not nice, jim..... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:24:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- jim, you want attention, don't you? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:42:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks Cynthia, Jim does need help -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:49:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Noname -:- Jim's still a premie, isn't he? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:04:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ clh -:- Jim's still a premie, isn't he? -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:10:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- In a nutshell. Well put. My thoughts exactly ...NT -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 06:54:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Jim's still a premie, isn't he? YES but I don't -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:21:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Premie Ji -:- people who don't post their eMail addresses -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:14:42 (GMT)

Monmot -:- Teen Fiction Warns About Cults -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:35:51 (GMT)
__ chuck -:- Teen Fiction Warns About Cults -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:45:18 (GMT)
__ __ Sam Hardy -:- The Big Cults -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:58:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- The Big Cults--Funny You Should Mention That -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 16:25:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Big Cults--Funny You Should Mention That -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:18:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- havent you followed the protests re the WTO? -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 10:53:00 (GMT)

Sandy -:- The way it goes -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:07:31 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Wow , didn't realise that fuckrat's lineage ... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:55:19 (GMT)
__ E Bai Gum-Ladd -:- The way it goes -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:13:35 (GMT)
__ wolfie -:- ....he had 700 women according to Bible (nt) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ Brigham Young -:- Bring 'em plenty,and bring 'em young! [P+L,such(nt -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:58:34 (GMT)
__ __ The Duke of York -:- only 700? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:11:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Anon2 -:- the way it goes -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:24:44 (GMT)

wolfie -:- All european programms overbooked -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:55:37 (GMT)
__ Jorge -:- Miami -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:10:02 (GMT)
__ sb -:- he keeps them so needy. Oh grace.BS -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:59:39 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- I reckon its a gratitude inducer.... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:47:35 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy warp -:- Hello Loafji.. woefully unsynchronised one -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Nottingham has certain traditions... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 16:26:09 (GMT)
__ jimboeger -:- All european programms overbooked -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:46:43 (GMT)
__ __ Anon2 -:- you'd think it'd be like that to get more money 4 -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:34:42 (GMT)

Cynthia -:- Sen.Jeffords,R-VT goes Independent! NEWS FLASH OT -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:08:25 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Jeffords is no saint ..he's a politician -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:00:59 (GMT)
__ bill -:- It is not because of the tax break or the budget -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:44:35 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Bill, it's a lot of things... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 20:25:27 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- It is not because of the tax break or the budget -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 16:53:12 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- Get your new 2004 bumper stickers ready ... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:11:14 (GMT)
__ E Bai Gum-Ladd -:- Sen.Jeffords,R-VT goes Independent! NEWS FLASH OT -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:57:44 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Great News -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:20:26 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Bush has written off the west coast. -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:21:50 (GMT)
__ Voyeur -:- Sen.Jeffords,R-VT goes Independent! NEWS FLASH OT -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:59:53 (GMT)
__ __ jsk -:- ANOTHER POLITICAL NEWS FLASH -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 13:28:04 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- This is not a political forum, but sometimes... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:32:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- On the balance of power... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:11:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- This is not a political forum, but sometimes... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:50:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Vermont politics -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:19:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Judicial picks -- ot -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:16:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ nt -:- vince -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:27:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- How about Orrin Hatch? Ugh! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:44:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hanging in there, Marianne... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:30:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Vermont is unusual ot -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:15:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Vermont, Minnesota, Oregon ot -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 17:23:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Vermont, Minnesota, Oregon ot -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 18:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Vermont, Minnesota, Oregon ot -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 06:32:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Interesting Dialogue o/t -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:57:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Vermont is unusual ot -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- It's true, Joe... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:57:47 (GMT)

creativejani -:- here's a good quote...from 1971 -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:36:16 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Then:hey, you hippies, I've got permanent LSD!Now -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:05:32 (GMT)
__ Sanji aka Sandy -:- yeah, ganja was invented in the west by Al Gore... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:56:36 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- hey,No internet w/o Al Gore rhythms [algorithms]nt -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:53:40 (GMT)


Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:44:05 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: There are probably people reading who haven't ...
Message:
heard any of M's early Guru is greater than God-type satsang. Would the forum administrators consider having a collection of his stuff over the years to demonstrate his changing position on everything except his own wonderfulness?
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 14:20:18 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Plenty of these on this site
Message:
Hi creativejani -
Here's a page on ex-premie.org that contains a lot of links to some of M's more outrageous past quotes and claims.

Maharaji's past

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:02:49 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Thanks! It takes a while to get around it all..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:35:15 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: It's a huge site
Message:
But most of the 'old' stuff is in the DLM/EV Papers-Indian background portion.

BTW, does that link work?

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 02:22:40 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie and creativejani
Subject: Is this the link? (and site map)
Message:
m's history

Ex-premie.org Site Map

And don't miss 'Mr. Natural Meets The Kid,' creativejani!

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 15:42:53 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Yes, I saw the 'toon strip....
Message:
Hi, I saw that, very funny! Have you checked out the site General Sir Dave posted recently? It's a great site, easy to find the general points about m and his cult, suicides of premies, his affairs etc. Much quicker than ferreting out the stuff in the archives here - with links to all the other main sites.

I've spent most of the afternoon there. Drat!

Bye.

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 17:03:57 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: OK, here's the URL (my link failed, natch!)
Message:
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/claims.htm

Maybe Stonor or Selene or some kind person can make it into a link for me!

Katie the HTML illiterate

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 19:03:11 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: OK, here's the URL - active link for novices
Message:
m's past

(I'll email you my virtually idiot-proof system ;)

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:22:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: there is a lot around creativejani
Message:
Along with the site map on here, Roger and Sir Dave and others have put a lot together.
Here's a good starting place:

Not Maharaji's Mixed Bag
I don't know if any of this is linked to from here or not and or why not if not but I have found some great stuff on these sites.
And thanks to search engines the above links and JM's and others show up fairly up the list on a maharaji keyword search from google or wherever.
I know this wasn't exactly what you were asking about but I do think there is a lot out there. If it needs more consolidation here you could email the FA's regarding suggestions.
I'm into helping again, was too busy for a while.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:56:28 (GMT)
From: chuck
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: creativejani
Subject: There are probably people reading who haven't ...
Message:
iz this like a chat room for people who have stumbled upon maharhji>
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:10:33 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: An End To Suffering
Message:
Despite the dramatic hook of the heading, this is a fairly trivial post. Is suffering, physical and psychological, simply bad fallout from carrying around those selfish genes? The Hedonistic Imperative seems to think so:

http://www.hedweb.com/

Personally, I like Kurt Vonnegut's theory that we're transport systems for viruses.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:08:51 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: An End To Suffering? Which one?
Message:
Do you think viruses can love and enjoy what we enjoy just by having a human body?
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:51:10 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: samhardy2002@yahoo.com
To: sb
Subject: An End To Suffering? Which one?
Message:
I don't know what viruses get up to in the privacy of their own homes.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 12:42:40 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: childish NT
Message:
y
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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 02:01:04 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: not to mention true (nt)
Message:
n
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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 16:59:37 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: AND??????
Message:
what about it? Lets talk about real human issues. The rest of life is doing their thing, yes. Irrelevant. Nice to watch and know, but doesn't help me find my self.

I don't get your posts, sorry Sam.

Love to you,

SB

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:24:08 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: Animals dont get these problems,
Message:
and they have the genes. Us humans have human nature, and we cannot live completely successful lives, one of the evidences
that there is some form of god.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:01:10 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Animals dont get these problems,
Message:
some form? call it ALL forms. hehehehe

There is 'something' and why give even a name. Names are confussing. Do you feel part of taht whole?

The state of being is the healthier one.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:16:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: I like your post. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 12:46:07 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Love is real - aha
Message:
That is what I'm most sure of and what I am basing my days on and it's wonderful. He did not take that from me. I was worried at some point that it wasn't going to come back.

Love to you my friend. Be well.

SB

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:39:07 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: An end to suffering
Message:
You are ignoring the general trend towards improvement of living conditions for thr whole human race thru all history. The planet now supports more people who live well than ever before, both in terms of absolute numbers and percentages. Read some Dr. Milton Friedman, or some Galbraith to get a different perspective.

Which isn't to say the suffering of millions isn't real. Just that we tend to be too close to the picture to have an accurate perspective.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:47:08 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: None
To: clh
Subject: An end to suffering
Message:
Six milliom children dying of starvation a year ain't much of an improvement, not to mention the thousands in slavery to produce the cocoa for my chocolate. Not that I'm complaining, mind you.

Where's the World Welfare Organization when you need it?

Galbraith was quite a nice chap for an economist. bill could tell you the story about the economist on the desert island with a can of baked beans.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:32:52 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Animals dont get these problems,
Message:
Sounds like John Lennon's 'God is a concept by which we measure our pain'.

Maybe it's evidence we have a big brain which thinks about things.

Chimpanzees have psychological problems in social groups, too

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 01:24:13 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: neurotic chimps
Message:
Hi Sam,

Do chimpanzees have psychological problems in social groups in the jungle, or just when they are with us? I figure I need to answer this question before I pack my leopardskin sarong and go feral. Love, Lesley the Primate.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 01:39:11 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: samhardy2002@yahoo.com
To: Lesley
Subject: neurotic chimps
Message:
All kindsa monkeys are under intense pressure in a wild social group, especially the boss guy trying to hang on to his harem.

You're feral enough up that valley with the lichen-encrusted gargoyles.

love, Sam

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 19:43:37 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: indiginous, natural...why is it better? (ot)
Message:
I think one of the worst examples of poor logic is 'it is natural it must be better' 'it is inginous it must be better'

The most natural thing in the world is death. Death is exceedingly natural.

Chimps, or most other animals, do not live in a harmonious disease free no anxiety state. And when there were no humans, or if there were no humans, this would be true. What is the life of most animals, competing for resources, trying to get enough to eat without being eaten yourself, finding your place in the pecking order, trying to get your young to adulthood. A lot like our lives. And there is wastage ( ie survival of the fittest ) in all animal species. Less wastage with longer living mammals with long gestations and long periods till adulthood. Big investments in these young.

But most of us are around because of unnatural advances in my book. Shelters to protect us from animals, societies and laws to protect us from eachother, sanitation, clean cooked food....on and on. We can debate vaccines and birth practices but our cemetaries are no longer full of young women and children as they were 150 years ago. Frankly, in many ways an old woman is unnatural, a woman who isn't dead, or doesn't have 10 kids, is unnatural. Maybe even having all your teeth at 40 is unatural, ( the Brits have always been more natural hee hee ).

Anyway, give me technology, medicine...etc. No way I would trade lives with someone without the access to these things.

Was that a tangent or a rant?

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 21:06:39 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Tangent, I reckon (ot)
Message:
I will go on an indigenous tangent: Have you ever noticed that when you go into a forest that has not been damaged, how harmonious the plants are, how beautiful the result is?, my bet is you have. Here where I live we have a major problem with an Indian tree import, the Camphor Laurel. It grows fast, propagates itself like crazy, and manages to stop the native plants from regenerating themselves. It is sad to see how the waterways are infested with the tree, and it is not a beautiful sight. Having said that, I have to agree with everything you said, natural is one hell of an abused word, and I doubt if any creature leads a utopian life. I often think how tough and miserable it must be for birds, when the weather is bad.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 21:41:39 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: yes, I like forests too(ot)
Message:
especially Redwoods. I agree, around here it is Eucalyptus growing like weeds and I think they are ugly and do not belong.

I agree on the tree thing.

eeck..but if we thought of people that way I would be send away from California myself! I am not indigenous! Wasn't there a guy once who thought he was ridding his country of all the non indiginous? I guess a lot of wars have been fought over that one. Wierd.

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 23:05:53 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: yes, I thought of people too(ot)
Message:
Europeans in australia have managed to do major destruction in a mere 200 years, not to mention the cane toads from s america.

If you look at what has happened since the industrial revolution from the perspective of other life forms than human on this earth, we must be viewed as a major problem.

Back to the word 'natural', I guess you would have to say this destruction is natural too! wierd, wierd, wierd

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:37:53 (GMT)
From: CHUCK
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: quetzalcoatl
Message:
wattt doez all this have to do with Quetzalcoatl???
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 02:47:47 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: CHUCK
Subject: what happen to you?
Message:
What is your problem. You CAN'T talk?

Are u weird or is just me? What do you have in mind. I do like riddles. What are we playing?

What association are you trying to make with an Aztec god and Lard? Help me please. I want to know.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 01:35:18 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: CHUCK
Subject: How many incarnations is this now ? nt
Message:
j
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:37:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: CHUCK
Subject: If you roll quetzi and sock him in water
Message:
and stick him up your nose you'll find out dickhead.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:38:43 (GMT)
From: CHUCK
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: If you roll quetzi and sock him in water
Message:
watt u trying to say?
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:09:20 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: CHUCK
Subject: Am saying that you are a boofhead.
Message:
what you're saying?
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:55:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: CHUCK
Subject: quetzalcoatl
Message:
Wasn't Quetzacoatl the Aztec Serpent God, and didn't the Aztec leader think Cortes was Quetzacoatl when the Spanish invaded Mexico? I'm trying to remember my 6th grade history about this.

BTW, not mentioned in most of our history books was that smallpox killed off so many Aztecs that Cortes basically just walked in over dead bodies. It wasn't some great military victory. [From Louwen 'Lies My Teacher Taught Me']

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:59:14 (GMT)
From: CHUCK
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: quetzalcoatl
Message:
WAZ QUETZALCOATL ALSO AN ANCIENT ECK MASTER????
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:49:21 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: CHUCK
Subject: quetzalcoatl : get him to rip your ......
Message:
...heart out & you'll find out .

Hey , fuck the Aztecs .

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:57:38 (GMT)
From: CHUCK
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Bin Liner
Subject: quetzalcoatl : get him to rip your ......
Message:
IZ MAHARAJI REALLY AN AZTEK???
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:10:35 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: CHUCK
Subject: FUCK OFF !!!!!!!
Message:
FU
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:17:43 (GMT)
From: CHUCK
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Bin Liner
Subject: FUCK OFF !!!!!!!
Message:
wen eye said 'iz maharaji really an aztec?' eye waznt trying to be funny - eye waz trying to lead up to something vary strange that happened to me - and hence eye started to study parapsychology to see if any so-called 'science' has covered or at least tried to explain the phenomena that eye haven't even yet told U yet, about.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:15:18 (GMT)
From: calling FA
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: thanks bin
Message:
This is spam.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:43:43 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Anybody vaguely sentient
Subject: S. America stuff... reminds me of the Celestine
Message:
Prophecy... must be a candidate for 'the worst novel ever written'...
BTW Is this a private conversation or can anyone join in??? Wot the fuck are you talking aboot???
Moldy Warp who's trying to make sense
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:55:46 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: S. America stuff... reminds me of the Celestine
Message:
minor point, but maybe important to chicano exes. Aztecs are Mexico, N America; not S. America
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:57:11 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: clh
Subject: Oops.. sorry .. geography v. boring at school! nt
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:49:57 (GMT)
From: CHUCK
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: quetzalcoatl the high priest of Peyote
Message:
quetzalcoatl the high priest of Peyote

That guy 'Bin Liner' who said 'FUCK OFF!!!!!' WHY IZ HE MAD
But u seem to be sentient so let me begin.
wen I received knowledge from an Indian Mahatma eye waz most impressed by GMJ saying 'I can show U the LSD within U' Do U remmeber that One/??? At anyrate, something strange happened
and it haz to do with QUETZALCOATL, But only because U may be SENTIENT = have eye gone this far with my story.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:55:54 (GMT)
From: Moldy_Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: CHUCK
Subject: quetzalcoatl the high priest of Peyote
Message:
E Mail me about it if yer like Chuck..
I remember the 'acid within' satsang!!!... Well ... will await yer E Mail or post... re 'something strange happened'
MW to whom something strangely strange but oddly normal happens most days...
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:01:26 (GMT)
From: chuck
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Moldy_Warp
Subject: I remember the 'acid within' satsang!!!...
Message:
do U have an email address
I have some artwork that i did while listening to a GMJ satsang
tape while at work.
Any wayz = wen i received knowledge, first eye saw this light but than it turned into this golden antique face of something really like - a golden mask. It waz really a - probably the strangest experience eye ever had in my life. I've tried studying science and trying to put it into a scientific vocabulary. Maybe the fact that I ate a whole bunch of Morning Glory Seeds (500) had something to do with it. That iz Aztec food eatin by the shamans of ancient aztecka. Did U ever hear of Morning Glory Seeds = a whole bunch of them = constituting a psychedelic experience?????
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 09:52:11 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: chuck
Subject: lsd can be made from morning glory seeds, yes.
Message:
if you are saying that you deliberately took 500 morning glory seeds before going to your knowledge session, you rather contaminated your state of attention for the initiation and that wasnt smart.
you probably just had an ordinary acid vision type hallucination.
we talk about this here sometimes.
the real light , when it comes for you, isnt a donut you see by squeezing your eyes or rubbing your fists in them or pinching the bridge of your nose in the dark. when the real thing comes, its everywhere and a presence and a place and you dont control it, it has a will.
when you see faces or visions or patterns while closing your eyes in a dark room and TRYING to see light, those are just fakeouts. call em hallucinations, imaginations, nerve pressure,--whatever.
they aint the light.not the real one.

i dont know why youre obsessed with quetzalcoatl, but he was considered a master and savior to the mexicans of long ago. he taught them valuable skills and things that were vital to their survival [ unlike lard of the universe] and when he left them, he promised them he would someday return. so as far as lardass milking the promises and beliefs of yet another people to his shamelss advantage, why, sure the lard would readily use that to add to his already overstuffed collection of myths, that conveniently seem to indicate his right to own everything and everyone in sight.

personally?, I'd just file your golden mask vision under 'acid hallucinations, brought on by morning glory seeds'.
i dont think it meant anything much, in the long haul.
really.

and spell things normally wouldja?
your whacked spelling makes you look illiterate and stupid. no one can take you seriously when you present that way.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:19:08 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: chuck
Subject: I remember the 'acid within' satsang!!!...
Message:
Morning Glory Seeds contain amides of lysergic acid related to, but not as strong as, d-Lysergic acid n,n diethyl amide. As an ex LSD junkie who messed up my life far worse with drugs than with m&k, I recomend not messing with it.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:35:54 (GMT)
From: CHUCK
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: clh
Subject: I remember the 'acid within' satsang!!!...
Message:
Did U ever eat a bunch of Morning Glory Seeds?
If not, don't knock it. I mean, it really iz a different unique thing.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 02:52:57 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: CHUCK
Subject: YOU are acting like a plant. Scram!
Message:
go and come back when you feel like being free. You're acting weird. Why discuss drugs here, now, this late. hahahaha
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:46:07 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: CHUCK
Subject: I remember the 'acid within' satsang!!!...
Message:
Ate em. Extracted the amides to concentate and control dosage, and to reduce the body trip. I was once a cook.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:03:56 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: chuck
Subject: Chuck ... here's me Email address nt
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:27:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: For the Record re EPO Events
Message:
I'm really glad that the venue is set for ex-premies to get together in San Francisco, and and to meet in person, and I'm glad it's at an open location that anyone can show up for. I understand it may be a large turnout.

We can all be a valuable support for each other. As I have mentioned a number of times, when I left the cult in 1983, there wasn't any way to get ex-premies together to talk about what the hell happened. Down below Joy and Richard mentioned David Davis who left the cult with a note on his pillow. Many people left the cult under those kinds of isolated circumstances. It's really devestating. You lose all or most of your friends, you lose your identity and purpose for living, you fear that you are in your mind, etc.

And that's what makes EPO so valuable -- it's a source for support and information. Meetings in TRW just add to that, and some people might like them, and others might not.

I have always felt that everything that happens here should be as open as possible. Some of you will remember lively discussions we had years ago about whether posts could be censored, or posters could be banned. I was always on the side of unfettered free speech, although I have come to understand that sometimes the FA has to act to keep the Forum from grinding to a hault, and I think they have done a good job at that, whoever they are.

Same way with any other 'events' that are outgrowths of EPO. I'm all for them being as open and welcoming as possible, even to premies if they wanted to attend. That's why I was against using obscure, unexplained, words to describe these things, no matter how innocent the intent. Some people agreed with my criticism of 'Latvian' and some didn't. That's what makes this place great. I know it was just a lighthearted fun way to describe things. There was nothing wrong with it, as long as it didn't exclude people.

Anyhow, I just wanted to correct a few erroneous things that Pat has been saying because now it's in the inactive, and I have to say I don't know where he got the ideas he did. But they are wrong. In a post in the inactive, he said:

The first time that you and I discussed the SF get-together here a few months ago you began to criticize the use of the term Latvian Night and opined that it would be better to have an ex-premie seminar with presentations by disgruntled exes.

This is not true. I did question 'Latvian Night' but I never suggested to replace the event with a seminar. I have mentioned, a number of times over the years, that someday I would like to see a seminar, complete with speakers and workshops, talking about cults in general and the Maharaji cult in particular, getting out of them, incorporating the experience into your life, workshops on therapy, etc. But that is obviously some place in the future, and had nothing to do with any ex-premie get together.

When you did not like my cheerful defense of the term Latvian Night you then became argumentative and bullying about publishing the venue on FV to the point where you were so thick-skinned and insensitive that I was forced to reveal where it was which had not been my wish.

Whether I was argumentative or bullying is Patrick's subjective opinion, but my questioning about why a location for an EPO 'event' advertised here was secret was a legitimate question and I wasn't the only one who asked it, and I had every right to ask it. This was completely in line with Patrick's own, professed, opinion that he didn't want to belong to some group or club. Well, holding events in secret locations, the address of which you can only get by emailing someone else, comes accross to me as pretty exclusive and clubby. But when Patrick explained his reasons, I accepted that. I think the record shows that.

Pat could have emailed me and explained what was going on and why he felt the way he did if he didn't want to state it on the Foru, but he didn't, instead putting it all on the forum for people to see and then blaming me for it. So to the extent Pat talked about things he didn't want to on the Forum, that was his choice, not mine, so Pat's resentment is misplaced. Maybe I am a bit thick. Sorry, that's the way God made me, and sorry I'm no good at reading Patrick's mind. It's one of my major deficiencies.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 20:01:33 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: great post Joe
Message:
You are not thick, dense or literal. I have decided not to come this time but it more the head space i am at these days than anything else.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:46:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: For the Record re Ex-Premie Organization Events
Message:
During the exchange which you mention you also said that my restaurant was a public venue and you could not understand the secrecy. I then had to explain (which I again resented as I thought it would be obvious to all) that it is not a public place. Restaurants are private property and I spend more time there than I do at home and it is an extension of my private space.

You also asked why people had to make reservations and suggested that not everyone wanted dinner and that since it was a public place that anybody should be allowed to turn up uninvited. What I should have pointed out to you at the time was that, even if it were not MY restaurant, NO restaurant owner would be pleased if a bunch of people turned up not wanting to eat but simply to meet on their private property.

That same limitation still applies to the current venue. Restaurants are not public they are private and the owner reserves the right to entry. Furthermore Marianne has still had to make reservations as it is the norm when entertaining a large group. And the post dinner venue is still a secret obtainable only by emailing Marianne unless you would like to publish her address on FV.

It was never the organization and planning of the event that put me off as some people seemed to think. It was attaching the Ex-Premie Organization name to it that I thought smacked too much of joining a group as well as the killjoy attempt to politicize it and basically crush all the fun out if it. Anyway have your kind of fun. It's not my idea of fun. I won't be there.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:33:52 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: PS I've been angry and did not apologise to you
Message:
I need to apologise because most of my reaction to this thing has been based on a resentment that I felt long ago and could have been talked about in a sensible way. Instead I bottled it up and blew it out of proportion and my reactions have tried to make you look like the bad guy which is balls. As everyone knows you're one of the good guys.

Probably lots of exes would like something more serious instead of just a dinner and party and you had every right to suggest it. Just because I am newly uncultivated and particularly touchy about anything that looks official did not give me the right to then try to make you look like the bad guy. I was being silly and childish.

I apologise sincerely and ask that you forgive me for my emotionalism and I hope that you don't hang on to resentments the way I do.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:10:42 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Patrick, I am not angry or resentful about this
Message:
I was just trying to understand where you were coming from, which I was having a hard time doing. Anyhow, I'm glad the air is cleared.

Joe
Who rode the J Church this morning, until it crashed into an SUV, and I had to get out and walk!! Just a normal, everyday, commute in Urban America!!

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 21:01:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks, Joe, you're a kind and good man NT
Message:
j
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:41:17 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PS I've been angry and did not apologise to you
Message:
Darling Pat, I hope this means you're coming to the PARTY.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:51:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Sweetie Dahling
Message:
I was so pissed yesterday that I told the boys to go ahead and make arrangements for something which we had intended to do before Pigeon Fanciers' Night was even talked about. Now all are hearts are set on that. But I'm still hoping you will make it over soon. For me it's always more fun with a small number of people anyway.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:08:08 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: If your thick Im jealous:)...nt
Message:
sfgc
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:27:36 (GMT)
From: Premette
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji is FAT. How FAT is he......?
Message:
1. He is so fat he has his own zip code.

2. He is so fat he has more chins than the Hong Kong phone book.

3. He is so fat he hasn't seen his feet since 1968.

4. He is so fat his blood type is Ragu.

5. He is so fat that when he sits around the house he really sits around the house.

6. He is so fat his face seats five.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:51:42 (GMT)
From: chuck
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Premette
Subject: Maharaji is FAT. How FAT is he......?
Message:
EYE MESSED UP
TRY THIS ONE
'WWW.FUSIONANOMALY.NET'
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:43:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Premette
Subject: fatter than me or even fatter than I
Message:
Now stop this fat stuff.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:47:25 (GMT)
From: chuck
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Selene
Subject: fatter than me or even fatter than I
Message:
try theze websites = tell me if they have relevance
1. www.fusionanomaly.net
2. www.rawilson.com

and did U ever hear of the CHURCH OF THE SUBGENIUS.?

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:49:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: chuck
Subject: sure Bob is a good friend of mine :)
Message:
He is real you know.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:54:33 (GMT)
From: chuck
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Selene
Subject: sure Bob is a good friend of mine :)
Message:
U no Robert Anton wilson. or J R Bob dobbs??????
I've seen Maharaji, Dr. Leary and Robert Anton Wilson.
But here iz watt people don't under-do-stand.
All three would be almost unknown, if there wazn't a Vietnam War,
the crazy-iest cult of all, going on. Right?
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:42:55 (GMT)
From: chuck
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Premette
Subject: Maharaji is FAT. How FAT is he......?
Message:
He iz quite fat. Question = how mani crazy people who anywayz
try theze two:
1. www.fusionanomaly.com
2. www.rawilson.com
and then emial me pleze
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:52:45 (GMT)
From: freepeople
Email: None
To: Premette
Subject: Maharaji is FAT. How FAT is he......?
Message:
1- He's so fat he uses hoola hoops to hold up his socks.

2- He's so fat he went to the movies and sat next to everyone.

3- He's so fat when he wears a yellow raincoat, people said 'Taxi!'

4- He's so fat when he tripped over on 4th Ave, he landed on 12th

5- He's so fat he fell and made the Grand Canyon!

6- he's so so fat he wakes up in sections!

7- He's so fat that when he hauls ass, he has to make two trips!

8- He's so fat that most premies are transparently skinny.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:36:52 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Premette and 'freepeople'
Subject: Now look, folks ...
Message:

dissing the Maha because of his blatant use/abuse of human gullibility is one thing. Dissing him 'cos he's fat is quite another.

Me? I used to be thin (painfully so, some said). Now middle age has spread its influence on me, I still think I'm thin - for my IQ. It's just other people that have a problem with my flubber [me? I've no problem with it at all, apart from the shock therapy I get from looking in the full-length mirror every ... (morning? whew! I should be so brave) ... now and then.]

the issue

Remember this folks - fat is a pre-forties issue.

Anything else is just a cheap dig at ... body issues.

(it's the damage done to peoples' minds that's the real issue, isn't it?)

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:37:59 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Now look, folks ... what's the real issue?
Message:
I think it's more a case of 'body tissues', in his case, and rather alot of them...I once heard a premie say he needs to be fat to hold all the love! And I bought it! I thought he was just cuddly, but as you get over the hill (40 ish, I'm well over) all that cuddlyness starts drooping and isn't quite so adorable. Still, I've never sat close enough to really be able to judge, and you know what miracles they can do with video editing/airbrshing etc. these days!

Really, someone who obviously abuses their own body isn't the best choice of a perfect master, are they? It gives a bit of a clue about the state of (not) god-consciousness of the fatty in question, don't you think?

I've always had a weight problem myself and I think it's back to not feeling secure and loved when I was a child - could that apply to m? Why not, Shri Hans, who he seems to have revered, was often away spreading knowledge and used to beat premies with sticks. That must have left a strong impression as to what a Satguru is on the young miragey. A case for psychoanalysis when this is all over, I think.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 02:58:36 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: But he wants to hide it.
Message:
I have some too. big deal...but he would really, really like to be different. We have come to accept it right? Imagine with his insecurites it might come in the way of things. god is fat to blow your mind away. cause, he could have had David's body but chose a short one and round like cause he's so, so humble....

Yea, right. I like being overweight too. How much stupidity we heard?

I still don't have the 'thing' working. be patient.

luv is in the air, all over, everywhere, not just the breath you moron clown chachashi.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:16:59 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Fat is a Premieist Issue... no seriously folks...
Message:
I don't like people posting digs aboot 'fat' here.
Lots of very nice people are 'fat' (wotever that means)...
I used to be thin till I had my last (4th) child, and was so sick when pregnant that I got very very thin, and then put on 2 stone in 6 months after the birth...
Rawat may be fat for self-indulgent reasons... but other people here have so-called 'weight problems' for other reasons... not the least of which is 'comfort eating'... which is entirely understandable reason if you think of wot we have been through!!!
Agree with you cq...
love Moldy who is getting thin again but knows that lovin' yerself is the most important thing (body size irrelevant)xxx
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:54:25 (GMT)
From: PatC The Fat Fag
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Amen, Moldy and cq .....NT
Message:
k
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:05:31 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: PatC The Fat Fag
Subject: Amen, Moldy and cq .....NT
Message:
It was a joke, to ridicule the forged divine images. I did not started i did posted bellow.

I have something around my waist but at least I don't say taht I'm the lord of the universe. hahahaha

SB, in a diet, as always. I eat what I want. LOL

PS:I will answer your letter soon. I started and it made a wrong painful turn and couldn't finish it. I must re-do it. (I like your humor!)

luv is real,

SB

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 06:48:38 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: I love being fat. When I was a skinny little sissy
Message:
everybody took advantage of me. Now I am big and not invisible and also feel that I have some padding like armor against some nasty jabs. I used to be too thin-skinned and still am but it doesn't hurt as much.

You said you took a wrong turn in your letter. You can't take a wrong turn with me. I love mistakes including my own. It's the only time I feel I learn something really new.

I don't mind fat jokes about Rev Moon Beam. If he was thin I would say he was a miserable stingy schemer which is just as bad as being a greedy, irresponsible pig.

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 17:02:02 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: hahahahahahahahaha
Message:
I like you!!

I'm in a hurry. Read capri's post on Anything Goes.

I'll 'talk more later, I want you. I have little time and want to catch up with FV. LOL

love is it!

SB

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:55:24 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Rolling Stone Article Comics on EPO !!
Message:
Rolling Stone Article .....

When The Lord of All The Universe Played Houston
Many are called but few show up

Texts still to come. Please be patient.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 03:01:57 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rather embarrassing what! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:18:53 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: He's the filter,not the filament...
Message:
Unbelievable how true the whole thing rings...then and now....

Great insight and wit...

Would he do one today?

Or, maybe we should....lots of possibilities...

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:42:33 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Rolling Stone Article Comics on EPO !!
Message:
J-M this is too priceless, thank you. To think that the artist, Randall Holmes? had it down so perfectly in 1974. A while ago I did a little blurb on the McDonaldization of the presentation of m&k - it absolutely pales next to this great piece of insightful satire. Thanks again, am looking forward to reading the text.
Gary
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:24:00 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hilarious! Great Work Jean-Michel (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:32:54 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Funny how current the cartoon seems
Message:
The cartoonist perfectly captured the nature of GMJ in the west then and the insights apply today. The arrogance was obvious then. Isn't it interesting how it all seems so obvious now but back then this person was obviously 'in their mind' and only needed Knowledge to clear things up?
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:31:30 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: My thoughts exactly, Richard:))) n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:40:46 (GMT)
From: jim boeger
Email: jimboeger@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: People who don't post their email addresses
Message:
are cowards
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 16:20:25 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com
To: jim boeger
Subject: People who don't post their email addresses
Message:
Or just lazy. Most people already know my email, and if you don't all you need do is ask.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 10:42:43 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: i think i used to know you once. are you--?
Message:
short,, blue eyed, had curly blond hair and a beard in the 70's, got stuck in canada after montreal peace flight77, drifted around ottawa? did you stay in a small house rented by greg kettles, which he pawned his macrobiotic cookware to pay for? and it only lasted a week before we all had to move out again?

are you the guy who had a room in the rex hotel in miami beach after guru puja that same summer? a rundown place on southbeach, on meridian avenue, just above the 5th st causeway? do you remember a girl you met in ottawa with long brown hair, who packed her stuff in a us mailbag, who stayed in your room thru august? for lack of anything better to do, she spent almast every day suntanning on the beach for the hell of it, in a tube top and cutoff jean shorts. she got a letter from denver at summer's end, telling her to come back there or she would lose all her stuff, so she packed and walked out and threw out her thumb on 5th street, that afternoon and split?

tell me if you're that Jim.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:39:44 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Now that's what I call wisdom
Message:
keep it up confucious.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:47:36 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Now that's what I call wisdom
Message:
Confuscious couldn't keep it up otherwise he wouldn't have had to write all that I Ching crap...
AND BTW... Salam ... you STILL haven't told me wot a 'pussy monkey' is...
Moldy warp who has a long memory
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 12:04:24 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: the wisdom of the pussy monkey
Message:
I don't know either, but let's let not a little thing like complete ignorance get in the way of confident assertions...

'A grease monkey' is a British derogatory term for a mechanic.

and

'code monkey' is a term favoured by Indian programmers for a grunt coder (routine programming done by according to a closely specified 'recipe')

SO

'a pussy monkey' clearly is intended to refer to a male who prostitutes himself to the fair sex for their pleasure? But is not too talented??

Uhuh, is that the time? I'd better go now.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 13:27:05 (GMT)
From: Moldy_warp
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: pussy monkey
Message:
Well if that's wot one is Salam is way off beam!!!
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:00:36 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: People who don't wear name badges and walk around
Message:
with their address tattooed on their foreheads are cowards - aren't they?

Why should I post my email address, I don't want any email at the moment. Thanks all the same.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:03:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Speaking of name badges, in Afganistan ...
Message:
that fundamentalist country with an extremist view of Islam, now all 'non-Muslims' will have to wear identification badges of some sort when in public.

What next, ghettos, then concentration camps? If I were a 'non-Muslim' in Afganistan I would be getting the hell out of there.

There's no fun in fundamentalism,

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:49:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: that me dear is nonsense
Message:
I posted mine here for ages and it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to find it still.
I just got sick of attempts at hacking as I use work email.
Not blaming anyone here! But why aggravate the issue and since my emai is just fine I see no reason to get a hotmail account.
Also people have a right to privacy if they so choose. What I think is over the top is the ones who preach privacy to the point of using anonymizers at all times and hiding completely and thoroughly their identity here and then abuse that privacy by being disruptive or worse. But that is my opinion only. and Please note:
There is a diff between an anonymous name here and total anonymizing via proxies etc that is what I am saying.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:01:07 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: A_ODwyer@hotmail.com
To: jim boeger
Subject: People who don't post their email addresses
Message:
You could say they same about people who choose not to use their real names - but that would be a another silly generalisation. It all depends on the reason for anonymity and whether they abuse that anonymity on the forum to make threats, spam post or otherwise cause disruption.

Anyway, it is the easiest thing in the world to set up a fake email account to go with your fake identity, and nothing whatsoever to do with bravery.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:41:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: ... and your bank account number ...?
Message:
It might have been old Aristotle who said something along the lines of:

'It would be foolish to be brave for no reason;
bravery is only a virtue when one is brave in the defense of his values'.

So, Mr Boogy-man, (am I brave or foolish to call you that?) - what are your values that impel you make such an inflexible judgement about all who post on the internet?

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:08:35 (GMT)
From: E Bai Gum-Ladd
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Who rattled your cage?
Message:
Now then lad. People who don't post their email addresses don't want spam. Dunt thee think before thee post? Oh aye, we had a lorra spam in the war, ya know. Those Yanks brought it over with them stockings for our lasses.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:57:21 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: we have our reasons
Message:
Example: My ex is still a premie, the father of my son, very hateful person. This has been discussed here before, many times, and fear of being 'hammered down', if you know what I mean..

If people want to communicate there is always a way to get those addresses. Do you write with Pat, Selene, Moldy, Bill, Bob, Katie, Jm, Brian,Helen, Robyn, etc.? they have mine. Ask for it. I'm sure they don't mind I am doing this. They know my ensalada. LOL.
But you are right. I'm beginning to feel so free that I will tell my real name soon in my jounal I'm working on. Oh my, I have so much to tell. LOL.

Stay strong and centered. Nothing to fear. He fears us.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:47:02 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: A book recommendation for you
Message:
'How to win friends and influence people' by Dale Carnegie. I think you could use a few pointers.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:59:09 (GMT)
From: jim boeger
Email: jimboeger@hotmail.com
To: Way
Subject: A book recommendation for you
Message:
[edited by FA]
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:33:39 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: FA:got some snot here for deletion[post above].(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:51:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: A book recommendation for you - good idea, Way
Message:
Jim, If I were you I would not alienate people here before you've gotten to know them. It is very tempting to be rude on the net because you are not face to face with the person. I also know that you pride yourself on being obnoxious but half the problems in your life would be solved if you treated others as you want to be treated yourself and I'm sure you prefer to be trusted and respected than feared and hated. Way is also a friend of mine.

If you took the time to look at this site you will see that most of us have our emails posted in the White Pages section and there is no need for us to repost it everytime. When you are new and trying to make friends here then it is a good idea to post your email address. However it seems that you are not interested in making friends or being liked.

You have a good opportunity here to talk with some of the cleverest kindest people that I know and by keeping their company healing yourself of the mental illness that you have. If you continue with you obnoxious behavior I will not associate myself with you. I know too much about you and am too outspoken to not speak about your problems if it is necessary to make you behave properly.

You are welcome if you behave respectfully.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:05:58 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: A book recommendation: fucking brill post Pat
Message:
PS Check yer Email (yet again!!!)
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:06:24 (GMT)
From: jim bo
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: A book recommendation for you - good idea, Way
Message:
Pat, you are correct. i am not interested in being liked. i am more interested in being worshipped. thank you dear. jim and by the way, i think maybe the mosty important benefit that mankingd has to get from this www is that you can speak your mind in relative safgety or you can make it as safe as you want. it depends on how dig of a coward you are.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:36:56 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: jim bo
Subject: A book recommendation for you - good idea, Way
Message:
Jim:

A word of advice. You're no match for most of the people here. The internet is dominated by people who can use the medium effectively. There are huge opportunities, but being confrontational and combative when you're overmatched is not the best way to take advantage of them. You can also get very badly stung. Take care, and learn.

--Scott 'veteran of many internet battles' T.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:12:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jim bo
Subject: All right then if you want to take that tone
Message:
of voice with me then please do not count on me as an ally. You can stew in your own fear. If you put out fear here that's what you will get back. If you are smart-assed that's what you'll get. I think you are in no position to be smart-assed.

You know and I know that your life is a pathetic mess. Did you think about killing yourself last week again? You need therapy badly, boy, or are you afraid to become sane because you will lose your SSI payments and may have to take some responsibility and do some work?

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:22:34 (GMT)
From: jimbo
Email: jimboeger@hotmail.com
To: PatC
Subject: All right then if you want to take that tone
Message:
see, you're threatening me with your friendship. do ou realize that. ally, agaist who. and could you wexplain, im thinking that ehrthe messages aren't emaild out of here? that would make more sense or something.i just wrote you a message but didn't post it, thakthinking that it would just oggo to you. it still maky be here on my machine, but it said about privacy abnd so forth. or sojething.ps why don't you take some responsibiliyty anbd do th3 the work it woudld take to grow your business so yu could hire me. i'll help with paper work, phone work etc. the only thing i can't do a lot of walking or standiong.so i'm positing theis because otherwise it[s too confusing for me to rtry to get it ot to you proivately.jim
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:26:14 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jimbo
Subject: I emailed you
Message:
I can't hire you. You couldn't do the work. It would be like throwing money down the drain and I would have to put up with your insanity and obnoxious behavior. What do you want to be when you grow up?
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:32:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Now that's not nice, jim.....
Message:
Screaming in all caps?

What's your problem? Care to discuss it in lower case?

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:24:38 (GMT)
From: jimbo
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Now that's not nice, jim.....
Message:
all cpas acaps is easier if you start with one.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:42:40 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: jimbo
Subject: jim, you want attention, don't you?
Message:
Hi jim,

You want attention. You've got mine for a short time. Based on your responses it appears you have some problems. The issue is not email addresses, the issue is why did you start posting here?

Now, get yourself straight in your mind and decide whether or not you want to converse here. The way you're headed, you could possibly be blocked. If you need psychiatric help, then please get some. Many of us have been and are in that situation.

Help and conversation is here if you remain civil and give respect to others. It takes time to get used to this forum. It's not a joke for you to play with, either. Please be civil and try to type more clearly, too.

Regards,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:49:49 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks Cynthia, Jim does need help
Message:
He is not my friend but an acquaintance, a premie for whom I feel very sorry. However he does alienate people with his manipulative, passive-aggressive behavior. Be careful. Remember that old hindu bullshit story about saving the scorpion? Each time the man tries to save the scorpion from drowning the bug bites him. Well, I think it's a dumb story anyway. I'd let the bug drown but if I were feeling compassionate and tried to save it and it bit me I woudl stomp on it.

I feel the same way here. He does not now that he is trapped in an infantile, unethical, immoral and hypocritical hindu fear-based cult. Thanks for being kinder than I am. I've shared with him the mental problems I have had and how I have overcome them but he is still quite attached to his.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:04:38 (GMT)
From: Mr. Noname
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Jim's still a premie, isn't he?
Message:
I once met Jim along time ago. And, indeed, he was having a difficult time back then too.

Within the last few years posts here and there from Jim and it would appear that he is still a premie. Is that still the case? I feel that it would be helpful to know if Jim is going to be 'hanging' around here so that we know his true motivations.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:10:53 (GMT)
From: clh
Email: None
To: Mr. Noname
Subject: Jim's still a premie, isn't he?
Message:
I think whether he's a premie, a fence sitter or an ex is irelevant. He clearly has some serious unresolved issues, and all 3 classes of people can get help. And until he's sought and sucessfully found help he'll likely be objectionable much of the time; with different motives much of the timt, too, so that sussing them out would be futile.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 06:54:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: clh
Subject: In a nutshell. Well put. My thoughts exactly ...NT
Message:
l
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:21:06 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mr. Noname
Subject: Jim's still a premie, isn't he? YES but I don't
Message:
what his motivations are other than to get some attention. He is very lonely.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:14:42 (GMT)
From: Premie Ji
Email: None
To: jim
Subject: people who don't post their eMail addresses
Message:
This handle may or may not reflect reality. I invented it 'cause I think even jim, who seems dim as well as new, might understand how it would draw slam and flame, sturm und drang (sp?), on the ex forum known for bullying, flaming and hammering down. Everywhere but here and the 'anything goes' forum my handle is my name, and I do provide my eMail. Here, well I don't mind being flamed on the forum, I'm a big boy and can take it. But I wouldn't want my eMail account to get clogged with crap. Think about what you going to say before you open the old pie hole, jim.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:35:51 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Teen Fiction Warns About Cults
Message:
From bookmagazine.com:

Cult Attraction

Several new novels describe the dangers of religious fanaticism
by Kristin Kloberdanz

IN THE LATE '80s, MARGARET Peterson Haddix, then a reporter for the Indianapolis News, was assigned a story on the Indianapolis Church of Christ, which had been accused by its former members of being a cult. Haddix learned that the church was recruiting a staggering number of young people from high school and college campuses.

What really captured her attention were the stories of those who had broken away. She interviewed countless people who had left the church, members who initially had been very enthusiastic but had become disillusioned.

'It was interesting to me, the psychology of leaving and how they were dealing with it,' Haddix says. 'Some people were kind of turned off to faith in general, and others were more of the attitude that it was a really bad experience, but that they really believe in God and just need to find the right way to be religious.' Ten years later, Haddix published Leaving Fishers, a novel for teenagers based on these interviews.

Haddix is one of several authors introducing the emerging wave of teenage fictional characters who try to explain what it's like to be part of a cult: how they are at first thrilled by the momentum, and how they later fight to leave when conditions get out of hand. In addition to Haddix, Linda Crew has recently published Brides of Eden, and Jane Yolen and Bruce Coville wrote Armageddon Summer, about a millennial doomsday cult. Like YA books on domestic abuse, drug use and eating disorders, these accounts can be looked at as both cautionary tales and engaging reads.

'Cult recruiting is a form of confidence game,' adds Margaret Thaler Singer, a clinical psychologist, psychology professor at the University of California, Berkeley and co-author of Cults in Our Midst. 'They'll get the lonely kid, the new kids in town, the kids who just transferred. Some of the cults actually train people to go to school grounds and see who's at the edge of the crowd that no one is paying any attention to.'

'I read everything I could find about modern-day cults and how this happens,' Crew says. She explains the process of 'love bombing,' the way new members are made to feel important, even as they are being slowly removed from mainstream society. 'Then the fear is put in you of what's going to happen if you try to get out of this group, how you're going to be cut out.'

Whenever a Heaven's Gate or a Branch Davidian tragedy occurs, the media—and the public in general&3151;buzz with a sick fascination. There is collective sorrow for the group and anger for the leader, but there is the excited feeling that an urban legend has just been played out before our eyes, and the media tend to dwell on the lurid details. Carol Giambalvo, a former director of the Cult Awareness Network, says that the current crop of books about cults for young adults may help serve as a warning against cults, rather than simply a titillating story, as long as they avoid this kind of melodrama.

Singer agrees. 'Any writing that shows that deception, trickery and flattery are the ways cults recruit the young people in, then the authors are on the right track,' she says. 'The book has to be real blunt that the flattery is just to warm them up; then the trickery follows.'

For more information on Leaving Fishers and Brides of Eden, read the complete article, 'Cult Attraction,' in the May/June 2001 issue of BOOK.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 22:45:18 (GMT)
From: chuck
Email: ckaltwasser@hotmail.com
To: Monmot
Subject: Teen Fiction Warns About Cults
Message:
Try theze two and tell me if they have any relevance to your trip
watt ever it iz.....
1. www.fusionanomaly.net
2. www.rawilson.com
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:58:49 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: None
To: chuck
Subject: The Big Cults
Message:
What about the cult of economic rationalism? Does anyone warn the kids about the effects of globalisation on their local economy?

What about the cult of advertising? Does anyone teach the kids logical thinking so they realise they don't have to consume everything new and shiny and cool?

http//www.adbusters.org

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 16:25:07 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: The Big Cults--Funny You Should Mention That
Message:
Sam:

I agree. I read the Adbuster pretty regularly. Check out, if you haven't already, the books 'Culture Jam,' by Kalle Lash, and 'No Logo,' by Naomi Klein.

Also: www.thebaffler.org They publish a fabulous journal which really takes apart the culture you're talking about. The Editor, Thomas Frank, has a new book out called 'One Market Under God.' I haven't read it yet, but will.

I've been fascinated by advertising for years now, and like you, I do think it's a big cult.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:18:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: The Big Cults--Funny You Should Mention That
Message:
Also, check out 'Fast Food Nation' by Eric Schlosser. Fantastic book about advertising manipulation and how fast food has destroyed, not only healthy diets, but farming, made meat processing the most dangerous job in the country, and increased obesity among americans by 100%, etc.

BTW, I heard that McDonalds has admitted that its french fries are fried in beef fat before they are sent to the outlets where they are cooked a second time in vegetable oil.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 10:53:00 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: havent you followed the protests re the WTO?
Message:
the 'battle in seattle'? the stink in DC? the embarrassment at the democratic convention in L A last summer?
hel yess , they know. and they have no leaders and no organization, deliberately. they learned by watching our mistakes in the 60's. they intentionally don't let anything develop that the govt could infiltrate or disinform or polarize the way COINTELPRO did to SDS and the Movement.

oh yes. they know. bigtime.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:07:31 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The way it goes
Message:
I suppose there were servants in King Solomon's court who were beaten for accidentally spilling wine on the robes of the courtiers, for falling asleep during a midnight soiree...some servants were probably verbally and physically mistreated by one or more of Solomon's many wives, and some servants were probably used as pawns in the murderous intrigues that Solomon had going on against his own family to stay in power...

Yet what is remembered is his wisdom as recorded in his Psalms and Proverbs. And his name is universally synonymous with wisdom itself.

Could it be that we are caught in the folds of the eternally flawed underbelly of the mechanics of human evolution, caught in the thick dusty velvet folds of the curtains on the stage of life, and the efforts of whatever God of Love there is to raise human consciousness?

Nawwwww.......

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:55:19 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Wow , didn't realise that fuckrat's lineage ...
Message:
...can be verified in Holy Writ .

I might have to change my mind about him now . I mean man that's so troooooo .

My advice to anyone trapped by an underbelly is to whip out a cigarette lighter & apply it to one of the folds .

You'd be surprised how nimble these gross bastards can be at changing their tune when they understand that you don't like being fucked anymore .

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:13:35 (GMT)
From: E Bai Gum-Ladd
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: The way it goes
Message:
Eeee, there's nowt so queer as folk.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:13:11 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: ....he had 700 women according to Bible (nt)
Message:
mmmmmm
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:58:34 (GMT)
From: Brigham Young
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Bring 'em plenty,and bring 'em young! [P+L,such(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:11:18 (GMT)
From: The Duke of York
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: only 700?
Message:
piffling.

Look at me - grand, old, and a Duke to boot. AND immortalised in rhyme:

The grand old Duke of York
He had ten thousand men,
He marched them all to the top of the hill
And he had them all again

That's the life eh? Bugger me if it ain't. What?

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:24:44 (GMT)
From: Anon2
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: the way it goes
Message:
Careful, people might think you are a fece sitter. Your post could be taken as saying that the things we complain about here are just the kind of things that always seem to go on around so-called Masters, from Budda to Nanak to Jesus. Why none of these guys, especially m, have been able to get better quality inner circles is beyond me.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:55:37 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: All european programms overbooked
Message:
Hi everyone,

I think all the ex-premies booked a seat four or five times and offered big donations. People (premies) here in my town don't get seats anymore, cause the hall is overbooked. The hall has around 2800 seats and for registration you have to pay 50 EUR but at least you should offer 90 EUR+ and this does not cover the costs anyway. I checked it via Internet and everywhere it's said: sorry there are no remaining seats, we take you on the waiting list. Somehow strange! But this is normal standard. Strange, more strange and higher. Maybe they check, who gives the higher donation and this is the one who gets a seat. It would be economic. Why not?
Maybe I go to Mainz, I want to see how I react, once there is a crack maybe the light comes in. But anyway I've got no seat and.

They should roll out a carpet for me cause I survived in the war of enlightenment and haven't lost my brain or was killed in friendly fire.

So all my beloved ones....I'm leaving for a gipsy weekend.

I will remember your names.....it's music for me.

hugs and love......wolfie

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 00:10:02 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: Miami
Message:
If you tried to register for the Miami program over the internet, there were no seats available.

Once you arrived at the convention center, you realised there were plenty of seats left.

This was told to me by premies who were there.

Seems like another cult ploy.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:59:39 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: he keeps them so needy. Oh grace.BS
Message:
what a bunch of idiots PAMs are, my GOD!!!!!

I detest each and everyone of you playing the EV game. Idiocy.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:47:35 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: wolfie
Subject: I reckon its a gratitude inducer....
Message:
make people think they are missing out, then phone em or email em and say IF a seat becomes available .. how much do you want to offer... and then... after much praying and softening of the brain... suprise !

Grace and Gratitude will get you in... If you P(R)AY hard enough

Good luck.. i too am registered and very excited.... but woefully unsynchronised.

Love

Loaf

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:09:59 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Hello Loafji.. woefully unsynchronised one
Message:
Where are you registered???... I've got 2 invites to Nottingham Ice Spectacular... in 2 minds whether to go or not... could be fun
PS fuck off EV monitor... you don't know who I am! AND ... get a life.. your own that is.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 16:26:09 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Moldy warp
Subject: Nottingham has certain traditions...
Message:
..and legends of greedy, authoritarian leaders - the kind who steal from the poor to feather their nests. And, not forgetting, a reputation for heroic, justice-seeking outlaws who give the tyrant a very hard time - resulting in his timely downfall and social humiliation.

Now why did I just remember that? :)

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:46:43 (GMT)
From: jimboeger
Email: jimboeger
To: wolfie
Subject: All european programms overbooked
Message:
hey buddy. i wish i could go twith you. im in san francisceo,cakufirbubuauia.go see god. via visio deo. something like that.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:34:42 (GMT)
From: Anon2
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: you'd think it'd be like that to get more money 4
Message:
m, but it isn't. I have moles inside.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:08:25 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sen.Jeffords,R-VT goes Independent! NEWS FLASH OT
Message:
Hi All, For Your Information:

Just wanted to let everyone know that a big shift in national politics will take place today when Sen. Jeffords announces at 2:00pm EST, that he's leaving the Republican party and switching to Independent!

It's been ''breaking news'' on our local channels all day yesterday and today. He doesn't agree with the Bush about a lot of things, especially the tax cut and the budget.

When a school teacher from Middlebury, VT was named Teacher of the Year, Jeffords was snubbed from the ceremony at the White House--not invited. He met with Cheny and Bush yesterday, but this is happening!

Jeffords appeared on local TV with Independent Congressman Bernie Sanders-Independent-VT, yesterday, confirming he would make an announcement today. This is very big news. For him to appear with Sanders is outstanding as Sanders is a Democatic Socialist, founder of the Progressive party in Vermont, and very left wing.

Jeffords will be allied and organizing with DEMOCRATS, therefore giving the Dems a majority in the Senate.

He is a Senior Senator and Chairman of the Committee for Health, Education, Labor, and Pensions, and also is on the following committees: Sen. Finance Committee, Veteran's Affairs Committee, the Special Committe on Aging, and the Norteast-Midwest Coalition.

When this change-over happens, the Democrats have promised him seats on other committees, as they will now take the MAJORITY in the US Senate!

It will be interesting to see how this plays out in the Senate, as well as, the national media.

This is very, very good news!

Cynthia

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 11:00:59 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Jeffords is no saint ..he's a politician
Message:
Excuse me for butting in on your domestic politics (and I'm not so well-versed and genned up as many of you obviously ) ....but there was a great comedy skit on the British radio the other day....

Sort of highlighting from the sixties to present day the issues Jefferson ( as a Republican...moderate or no moderate ....would have found either palatable or at least tongue- bitable ) ....

You know ....things like wars, civil rights , invasion of Poor lil Grenada, star wars etc etc etc etc ......a whole long list ......the skit finished with .....Now VERMONT DAIRY RIGHTS .....THAT'S GOING TOO FAR !!!!!!!!!!!

Cheers
Dermot

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:44:35 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: It is not because of the tax break or the budget
Message:
I say, he must have a better reason than that.
But what, we shall see if that comes out.
Why shouldnt there be a tax break? Democrats would never
provide one no matter who got to design it.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 20:25:27 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill, it's a lot of things...
Message:
Hi bill,

Jeffords has been in WDC for a long time. Because he is a moderate, often voting with the Democrats, the Republicans have refused to appoint him to various committees to which he is entitled as a senior senator. The Northeast Dairy Compact is also something the Reps. have been fighting with him about for a long time.

Jeffords was very clear that his values and politics are at great odds with the Bush Administration. Choice for women, campaign finance reform, gay rights, education funding without gutting the public school systems by allowing vouchers, and especially the environment are issues which he strongly believes he must fight for, but has concluded he can't do anything by remaining in the GOP.

He is really a regular guy, like Leahy and Sanders. I know they're all politicians, but they fight very hard for the folks here in Vermont, as well as the rest of the country.

Jeffords probably won't be running again, but I gotta tell you, I am very pleased that he had the courage to upset the balance of the entire U.S. Senate based on his values and what he believes can be done. I'd certainly like Leahy as the Judiciary Committee Chairman, and Jeffords heading up the Environmental Committee.


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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 16:53:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: It is not because of the tax break or the budget
Message:
Bill:

I think they would. At least, they comitted to a tax cut in their campaign platform. It was smaller, and was targetted to middle and lower income. Ferinstance, why should I have to pay *any* tax on income used to provide myself with healthcare, when most modern industrial nations have national healthcare? Same deal with income used for education.

As I understand it, Jeffords left because of the increasing polarization within the Republican Party and the way it ghettoizes moderates. He didn't feel he could allow his seat to give Republicans institutional control of an agenda he doesn't support on *any* level. BTW, if a few Democrats had not already switched parties (including Ben Campbell and Strom Thurmond, among others) the Republicans would not currently control the Senate anyway.

The justice here is that the same arrogance that allowed Bush to go to any lengths to take the election may be the fatal flaw in his administration. It would have been easy for him to see this coming, if he had it in him to do so.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:11:14 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Get your new 2004 bumper stickers ready ...
Message:
Gore - Jeffords / 2004
Trim back the Bush.
Clip the Dick.
Evacuate the Colin.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:57:44 (GMT)
From: E Bai Gum-Ladd
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Sen.Jeffords,R-VT goes Independent! NEWS FLASH OT
Message:
The'll be dancin' up 't mill the neet.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:20:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Great News
Message:
I've always admired Jeffords, although voting for Trent Lott as Majority Leader, and voting to confirm John Ashcroft troubled me quite a lot.

One wonders if a Democrat will defect as well. John Breaux has been talked about as a prime candidate.

Then there is Strom Thurmond, who I think is 97 or 98. Since South Carolina has a Democratic governor, his replacement presumably be a Democrat. Maybe Jeffords realizes the Republican majority has numbered days anyway. I've thought that perhaps Thurmond actually died a couple of years ago, and there is some kind of right-wing conspiracy that is keeping him breathing and with a pulse through weird artificial means. ::))

It really does appear that Dick Cheney is the real president right now. I can't imagine any other president allowing the VP to be so visible and combative. Cheney is in an all-out war with the Governor of California, for example. I think Bush hasn't a prayer of ever getting California in his electoral colum. Too bad.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:21:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Bush has written off the west coast.
Message:
Gore won the west coast, so Bush probably figures 'fuck 'em, let 'em pay $$$$ for energy, all the more $$$$ for my buddies.' Thus, he doesn't want any price caps.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:59:53 (GMT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Sen.Jeffords,R-VT goes Independent! NEWS FLASH OT
Message:
Can I ask if this forum has now become a political forum?
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 13:28:04 (GMT)
From: jsk
Email: None
To: Voyeur
Subject: ANOTHER POLITICAL NEWS FLASH
Message:
more political news from Florida

Janet Reno may run against J Bush for governor

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:32:29 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: This is not a political forum, but sometimes...
Message:
we discuss off topic items such as politics.

Sorry for offending anyone, I just thought I'd post this to bring it to everyone's attention so they can watch the news coverage.

P.S. Jeffords will be announcing his switch tomorrow (Thursday) so that he can do it in Vermont.

Thanks for your comments, Joe. With this change, Sen. Pat Leahy (D) would become the Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. The balance of power is shifting....we shall see...

That's all. No one has to post about this---information only--

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:11:37 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: On the balance of power...
Message:
Cynthia:

A comment on the larger political context: The balance of power is shifting to the center. This is not because Americans are inherently centrist, but because they haven't made up their minds. They're sorting these issues out, and don't want to take a big leap in either direction yet. The Democrats would be well-advised to remember this.

I think one could successfully take an extreme position, as long as it's not anchored in one of the old ideological orientations that emerged from the French Revolution. And as Hannah Arendt points out in *On Revolution*, not all of the changes that originate in the middle are benign.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:50:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: This is not a political forum, but sometimes...
Message:
I know what you mean. Sometimes things can get really off-topic like after the election, but I think it's also great that ex-premies can express interests that have nothing to do with Maharaji. We are multi-dimensional people.

Judiciary is the scary one for me. Rehnquist will probably resign this year, and if the Republicans control Judiciary, Bush's nominee will easily get passed along and get confirmed. Then I think things like reproductive choice and civil rights are really in trouble. Plus, Bush will get to select the new Chief Justice. Very scary.

I heard the Democrats have offered Leahy to head the Environmental Commmittee. Thanks God. With Bush's all-out assault on the environment, the poor planet needs all the help it can get.

What is it about Vermont that produces such sane, sensible people?

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:19:20 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Vermont politics
Message:
Joe:

What is it about Vermont that produces such sane, sensible people?

In this regard, I think you'd get a kick out of Daniel Elezar's *American Mosaic*. Vermont is influenced by what he a calls the 'moralistic political culture' and he has an incisive theory that explains the political map of the US. It's on a different level, and different scale, from Lipset's... but just as interesting.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:16:18 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Joe and Cynthia
Subject: Judicial picks -- ot
Message:
Hi Joe and Cynthia. I wholeheartedly agree with you that Jeffords' decision to go independent is wonderful news, especially where the federal judiciary is concerned. Did either of you see the rogues' gallery of people that the Republicans have nominated for the federal bench? A former Scalia clerk, a former Rehnquist clerk, former aide to Jesse Helms, former aide to Strom Thurmond (I think, or someone just like him). Oh, it's bad. Then there's Ted Olson for Solicitor General, one of the main folks from the American Spectator-- the people who wanted us to belive that Vince Foster was murdered... Arrrghhh.

The Jeffords defection is good news compared to everything else that's going on back in DC.

Cynthia, how goes it with you?

Marianne

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:27:32 (GMT)
From: nt
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: vince
Message:
When Vince Foster was found dead from an apparent gunshot wound to the head in 1993, the government was quick to write off the death as a suicide.

That sat well with Bill Clinton and Vince's closest confidante, Hillary Rodham Clinton.

For years, detail after detail emerged questioning the official ruling.

Significant questions were raised about the unusual gun - a .38 Colt revolver made from the parts of three guns with two serial numbers - found conveniently in Vince's hand.

The Park Police said one of the serial numbers indicated the gun was vintage 1913 - and had no pedigree.

Foster family members insisted neither Foster nor his father ever owned the old revolver.

Recently, a NewsMax.com reader named Craig Brinkley contacted us.

Curious about the gun, Brinkley had filed a Freedom of Information Act request with the FBI, asking details of requests on the gun's serial numbers with the NCIC - the National Crime Information Center.

The NCIC keeps records of all law enforcment inquiries of serial numbers.

On March 23, 2001, the FBI responded to Brinkley's request.

Serial number 356555, one of the numbers on the gun, was never searched, not by the FBI, the Park Police or by that 'investigation' by Ken Starr.

Serial number 355055 was found on the frame of the gun. Brinkley believes that was the gun's real number.

That number was indeed searched by the Park Police, on the evening of Foster's death, more exactly at 22:45 EDT on July 20, 1993.

Interestingly, searches were conducted on the same serial number no fewer than three times earlier that year, before Foster's death, on March 3, March 7 and April 29.

Was someone checking to see that this gun had a 'clean' predigree and was untraceable?

We called Marilyn Walton at the FBI's Access Integrity Unit. She told us that the government does not disclose which law enforcement agencies requested a trace on the serial number. She said it could have been made by local or federal agencies who have access to the NCIC computer.

She noted that serial numbers are often duplicated, and usually when a request is made, it includes additional information, such as the gun's make and model.

In all four cases no such information was entered, just the number. Walton added that many guns share similar serial numbers.

Is it a coincidence that in the year of Foster's death, four searches were conducted on the serial number found on the old gun - none ever before or after?

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:44:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: How about Orrin Hatch? Ugh!
Message:
He is the name most talked about as replacing Rehnquist. That moralistic right-wing bastard, the one who accused Anita Hill of being insane, would be Chief Justice. And being that he is a Senator, he might have an easy time of it. Oh my God.

BTW, Ted Olson is also the lawyer who represented Bush before the Supreme Court in Bush v. Gore. Yuck!

I'm hearing that Jeffords is bolting the GOP because he almost single-handedly reduced the Bush tax cut in the senate by $400 billion. Apparently the White House planned retribution on the diary farmers of Vermont. That's politics, I guess, but good for Jeffords.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:30:41 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hanging in there, Marianne...
Message:
I will email or call you soon.

This is very exciting news. I believe that it's Jeffords who would get the seat on the Environmental Committee. Leahy, who is the ranking member of the Judiciary Committee would be made Chairperson if the Dems take control. This will also give Vermont a lot more power (for a rural state) with two senior senators in the Democratic party.

Yes, I have noticed the gallery of ultra-right nominees for the federal bench. That's another issue that Jeffords has a problem with. He's always been a moderate and he's been pissing off the Conservative Right because he so often votes with the Democrats.

Much love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:15:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Vermont is unusual ot
Message:
When I moved here, I didn't realize how ''white'' the state is. I was shocked, actually, because it wasn't something I considered before moving here. I know some people who still us the 'n' word, it very strange.

Vermont has a faction of people who still believe we should never have joined the Union--Vermont the last!

With the influx of the hippies in the 60s and 70s, this very republican state has gradually changed into a much more liberal one. The change from agriculture being the mainstay to a tourism state has also brough a lot of old and new money here. It's difficult economically because there are so many stringent environmental laws, like Act 250, which restricts development, hence, business and industry tend to stay away. Makes it difficult to make ends meet for many, but it's worth it to me.

As you know, there's also a large contingent of gays and lesbians here. The stupid state legislature spent most of this session trying to gut the Civil Unions law instead of working on new important issues, so they're now in overtime (getting paid) trying to wrap things up for this year. The Civil Union law remains intact, thankfully.

It's a weird, beautiful, and very political place to live.

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 17:23:22 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Vermont, Minnesota, Oregon ot
Message:
Cynthia:

According to Elezar's 'American Mosiac' theory there are three fundamental political cultures in the US, roughly corresponding to three geographical bands accross the country from north (moralistic) middle (individualistic) to south (traditionalistic). There is a basic similarity between the northern states, from New England through the upper midwest to Oregon. Essentially, this reflects the track people took in the westward expansion although the mountain ranges tended to disrupt the flow, so that there are pockets of traditionalistic culture in the Northwest and visa versa. He also talks about small areas where there are combinations of the two, resulting in 'hybrids.' But, as a general rule the states closest to Canada are the most 'social democratic.'

Moralism refers to an extrapolation from the original Calvinist founders (though secularization) whereby those people think of government as playing a constructive role in people's lives, and in the gradual moral 'perfection' of society. In other words, it has it's origins in religious culture but is not strictly religious. It's a product of the process that Weber calls 'rationalization.'

There's a lot of literature about the shift from predominantly Republican to predominantly Democrat in the northeast, but the influx of the hippie culture wasn't the driving force. (Although it's clearly an influence, it may have originally been a consequence.) The change has more to do with the way the US political context has changed, and the way the moralistic culture responds to that new context. As the northeast became more D the south became more R. This is all complicated my migration patterns too, so it's not unimportant that the South is not only more Republican but is also the most 'post-materialist' section of the country, by a narrow margin over New England. (In other words, it's more complicated than the conventional notion of conservative Ds switching parties.) The Rs don't seem to understand this apparent contradiction, so I think it's potentially exploitable by the Ds.

The population (both density and small media markets)phenomenon that Joe points out is also important, but you'll note that this is generally true of the northernmost states as well, so it reinforces the already established political culture. Extremely low population density seems to result in more conservative politics, and you have this odd phenomenon seen in southern Oregon and parts of Montana with very liberal enclaves sorrounded by very large conservative geographica areas: Ashland, OR and Billings, MT for instance. Political culture is fascinating.

--Scott

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 18:10:25 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Vermont, Minnesota, Oregon ot
Message:
Having spent quite a bit of time in Minnesota, I don't think it's liberalism (which I think it diminishing/Gore just barely carried the state, notwithstanding a pretty good showing by Nader), is due to the Scandinavian heritage. Plus, North Dakota, Idaho, Montana and New Hampshire (hard to find a state more opposed to taxes for social programs) would tend to be exceptions to the 'close to Canada' theory.

But I think the issue with Jeffords is that he used to be in the mainstream of the Republican party, but the Republican party has moved radically to the far right, and the Democratic party has also moved right to the political center. It's not that Jeffords has changed, the parties changed, and he went from being in the mainstream of the Republican party to being in the mainstream of the Democratic party.

I don't think too much should be made of this, though. It's unlikely that the Democrats will pick up very many seats in the Senate next time around. There are 6-8 Democrats in all those 'red' states that Bush carried by large margins who are very vulnerable(Max Baucus, both the senators from LA, Cleland in GA, etc.), and although there are a few in Republicans in the same situation, there are fewer of them. I think the seat in Illinois is the best shot.

California, on the other hand, has seen a major shift and is now central to the Dems base. It looks like LA is going to get a very progressive mayor in a few days, and anger over Bush's 'drop dead' response to the energy crisis (along with redistricting) could cause the Dems to pick up enough seats to get back the House. The California Republican party is very demoralized at the moment.

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 06:32:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Vermont, Minnesota, Oregon ot
Message:
Joe:

Well, I was just expounding on Elezar's theory, which I think has a lot of merit. There are certainly differences between the states... so the rule on a theory about the influence of this or that is 'holding all else equal.' I'm not familiar with polls done after our '96 poll, but the rule held up pretty well on that one. (The 'northern tier' was also the most social democratic, and saw trade unionism in the most favorable light.) Can't recall if NH was an exception.

'But I think the issue with Jeffords is that he used to be in the mainstream of the Republican party, but the Republican party has moved radically to the far right, and the Democratic party has also moved right to the political center. It's not that Jeffords has changed, the parties changed, and he went from being in the mainstream of the Republican party to being in the mainstream of the Democratic party.'

That statement makes sense, but is it empirical? I'm thinking of some research by Poole that gauged the ideology of members of the Senate and House over a 30 year period, and didn't find that much change. I think his study ended in the early '90s though. I have the Vote Smart National Political Awareness test given to candidates for the House for '96, '98 and 2000; and for the Senate for '98 and 2000. The Senate's kind of skimpy though, since only 1/3rd of the seats are up for any given year, and rarely the same ones for two cycles (if someone dies or retires). Therefore, no real trend data.

The country itsef has moved to the right though, according to the National Election Survey. Well, 'right' in our terms anyway. We have a kind of ideosyncratic definition of right and left in this country. We equate 'classical liberal' with 'right' for instance, whereas most of the world doesn't make that characterization. F.A. Hayek would have been insulted to have been called a 'conservative.'

-Scott

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 21:57:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Interesting Dialogue o/t
Message:
It's true that Vermont has become more progressive. Even in the 14 years I've lived here, the influx of urbanites to all areas of the state has changed the political climate. People who migrated here for the pace of life and the rural nature have had a significant effect on the change. Because local politics is so powerful many of the more progressive or liberal people now have positions of power on local and state levels.

Those hippies I referred to turned into hippie/yuppie/socially conscious types--and are now middle aged professionals with pony tails. (I'm very cynical about the business which belong to the ''VT Businesses for Social Responsibility,'' because I was involved with the forming of the organization when I worked for an architect up here, and it's more of a moniker than actual businesses who are socially responsible to their employees or the environment.) My architect boss was on the board and he was the most hypocritical person vis a vis the environment, social programs, etc. He was amazing. He'd change his portfolio depending upon the client, knew how to get an Act 250 submission with 2 hearings, which is not easy. And he never gave me a raise in five years! Yet there are some good employers here too, but not many. Even Ben and Jerry defected by allowing their corporation to get out of their control which subsequently caused the shareholders to vote a buy-out by Unilever of UK, which sells everything from Ragu spaghetti sause to tampons.

While I was watching both local and national coverage on Jeffords I noticed that the R's who are losing the majority in the senate kept calling Jeffords a ''liberal,'' which is a poisonous word in politics today, especially for republicans--laughable. Jeffords put out a written statement to the media that he has no intention of running for Governor (the speculation is he would never beat Howard Dean as a republication and that is why he went Independent). It was interesting how much the R's were downplaying the effect of this change, while using those words: liberal and left-wing to refer to, of all people Jim Jeffords.

I think what happened was that Jeffords found himself in a party that was no longer the republican party of his family, which has been in Vermont since the 1700s. His grandfather, a judge, swore Calvin Coolidge in when he became president. Sure he's a politician, but he's intelligent and principled.

With such a dunce in the White House, and he really is stupid, I feel more reassured that at least one house in Congress has a democratic majority. I realize they are all politicians and don't reflect my personal progressive politics. Better than Jessie Helms at the helm, though!

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:49:26 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Vermont is unusual ot
Message:
That makes a lot of sense, Cynthia. I think there is also something about Vermont being small enough that retail politics still exist there. In California, you never meet a politician, you just see their million-dollar TV commercials. We are just too big.

Re Civil Unions, I read a quote from Howard Dean, when speaking about the Vermont Legislature: 'I wish these people would quit talking about sex and get back to work.' I thought that was great.

I understand Massachusetts is now considering a civil unions bill.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:57:47 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It's true, Joe...
Message:
Our national politicians are very accessible because our population is about 600,000. Considering the size of the state, that is very small.

I always keep in touch with all three: Leahy, Jeffords and Sanders. Their people are able to get messages through. Bernie's trademark in VT has always been not wearing a tie (which he reluctantly started doing once he reached Congress).

As far as helping folks with problems the same is true. It's always possible to get information and action with their help.

Depending upon where he gives his speech, I may take a drive tomorrow to hear it in person.

This is a major shift in power and very exciting for such a small state!


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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:36:16 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: here's a good quote...from 1971
Message:
I found this transcript of satsang given at Satyalok Ashram, Moradnagar, 12th April 1971. I think it shows what he thought of us westerners when he first came over, and it brings it all back to me...

'It has been proclaimed that the seat of ONne who is Shri Guru Naharaj Ji is the highest of all greatest of all....
But why is He regarded as highest? Why is He regarded a sgreatest? This has got one very big specific reason. That specifice reason is this, that, He fives Knowledge, and He sives such Knowledged knowing which we reach that stage, we reach that ascent of lige which theses foreigners want to achieve by so mnay means. They take LSD, intoxicants, ganja(marijuana), sulfa injection. They want to achieve that stage by these means. But now they are completely tired and vexed by taking LSD repeatedly, by using sulfa (ganga, marijuana)perpetually. Now they want to search for some other thing.

Then how great Shri Guru Maharaj Ji is for them that they got the shelter of that thing which is to remain with them always.'

Later in this satsang he says'What is devotion? When we proceed on that path, that will leave us at such a highest place where there is only light
This is what most of the early premies heard. Later on again he says how guru is greater than god because he shows you god face to face, and he calls knowledge 'knowledge of God'. That God bit got dropped quite a few years ago, of course, in one of the many re-inventions of the 'message'. Now they claim not to be religious etc etc.

Of course, it was the promise of the experience of light and the prospect of being 'saved' by M which got the initial enthusiasm and energy to spread his message. (I think there was a thread about the LSD influence on the early Mission a few days ago - I didn't read it but I remember all the satsang saying how knowledge was beeter than LSD, light brighter thanten thousand suns etc.) Now M is saying he never promised or wanted anyone to attain an 'out of this world' experience. (FAQ on EV site.)I emailed EV a couple of days ago about this discrepancy, I haven't heard back!

Surprise.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:05:32 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Then:hey, you hippies, I've got permanent LSD!Now
Message:
M has decided that he never told anyone that they could reach some sort of permanent high.
He just didn't make that statement.
Must have been them dang mahatmas, or maybe the premies just imagined it...

Although that is surely the most blatant and memorable statement he made in this regard, for many years he made similar statements.
In fact, he always used to harangue premies for not 'being in that place' all the time, where guru maharaji was...

The assumption was that he was always in that place, we weren't, and we needed to be more devoted to get there and stay there all the time.

This is one of the major reasons why so many premies got so screwed up emotionally/psychologically: they were trying to do an extremely unnatural (and impossible) thing, which m couldn't do himself, but implied that he was doing...

This constant attempt to always be meditating, and 'in that place' caused many people to lose track of their own inner voice.
Any voice besides the party line of 'constantly remember holy name',or 'leave no room for doubt in your mind', was the evil mind, and to be avoided like the plague.

Rather than teaching people how to follow their own inner voice, m taught them how to be devotees of his.

A devotee listens,and the master speaks.
A devotee does not doubt the master.
A devotee serves the master.

What a relief to not be a devotee.

I wonder...
How would m's service to his master be rated?
Is he doing a good job?

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:56:36 (GMT)
From: Sanji aka Sandy
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: yeah, ganja was invented in the west by Al Gore...
Message:
It was never previously heard of in India, nor was it ever used by x-rated premies or the Master himself to chill.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:53:40 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Sanji aka Sandy
Subject: hey,No internet w/o Al Gore rhythms [algorithms]nt
Message:
nt
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