Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 16:41:34 (GMT)
From: May 18, 2001 To: May 29, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


AJW -:- Captain Rawat isn't finished yet. -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:42:15 (GMT)
__ SB -:- hahahahahahahahahhhahahahahahahahhahahahahah NT -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:07:37 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Yes, it was quite entertaining when maha did the -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:10:06 (GMT)
__ Roy -:- Should this succeed... -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:13:15 (GMT)
__ __ Ones who practices K -:- This is true unlike Anth's story -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:23:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Sounds like a lot of fun, Roy -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 01:27:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- oops - not Roy - I meant the holy family here... -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 01:33:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Looking forward to seeing Marolyn Peaking -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:30:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ C.g. -:- I was waiting for that (ot) -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- me too I was going to comment -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:45:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ C.G. -:- Now give me a hard time about intersting! -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:41:48 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Yes Roy, we're screwed. (nt) -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:19:39 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- My source agrees and.... -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 10:59:57 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Thanks for the report Anth - brilliant! -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 15:15:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Will M's autobiography be called 'Soul on Ice'? nt -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 19:54:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Been There -:- 'Soul on Ice' already taken -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 20:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- 'Soul on Ice' already taken - I knew that -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 01:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Swami Gosh Ji -:- Your wit was too wry -like dry ice -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 09:01:00 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Rawat playing with himself on ice? A must see nt -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 11:07:21 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- Captain Rawat in ice spectacular !LOL and LOLnt -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 10:51:34 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- when hell freezes over-! and i quote -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:49:12 (GMT)

Sandy -:- On letting the heart speak -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:13:20 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Sandy,about this mind/heart business with m... -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 05:23:43 (GMT)
__ __ free -:- Pss -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:03:50 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Nothing has changed, notice how he -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 03:15:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Bill, Bill, Bill -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:06:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill-I cant be bothered -:- capitalizing the b, and Janet is right..........nt -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- capitalizing the b, and Janet is right..........nt -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 20:23:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You mean you ageee with her...that's as far as you -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:30:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- you dodged his observation. he nailed you. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:55:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Janet -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:03:25 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- to la-ex -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:06:59 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Following a path with heart -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 01:42:24 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Following a path with heart -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 15:16:17 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- To Pat -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:11:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- To Sandy -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:22:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- To Sandy.. on mind-heart so-called dichotomy -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:10:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- To Moldy -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:09:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- To Sandy with kind thoughts -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:12:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- To Pat C with kind thoughts -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:13:36 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Get out while you can! -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 01:16:51 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Jerry, what the fuck...? -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:18:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Just goofin' -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 11:48:57 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Listen to your heart = Bhakji Juju -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 00:43:24 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Let's put it this way, Joy -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:25:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- I was rubbing my eyes yesterday Joy (and Sandy) -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 17:20:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joy -:- Cosmic Donuts: Fun, but not God -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:31:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Cosmic Donuts: Fun, but not God -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:22:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Hey Joy, remember this?! -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:39:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- The Who = More Blissful Than M! -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:31:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- The Who = More Blissful Than M! -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:47:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- The Who AND the Dead = More Blissful Than M! -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 19:19:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Touching his inner leg (still OT) -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 00:40:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Did your cosmic donut have rainbow sprinkles? (nt) -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:15:59 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Ever considered Atheism Sandy? -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 23:31:20 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- To my dear brother Anth -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:37:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Then try being agnostic -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 01:51:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Hands came from paws, and paws from claws... -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 02:44:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- You didn't finish. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 00:08:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- You didn't finish. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 17:55:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- ALL the way -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 23:04:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- It's that very assumption -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 11:41:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- As above, so below -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:19:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Yes Mr Mind, it's about belief, not experience. -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 11:57:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Flash to AJW -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:26:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Mythological Archetypes and Jesus. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 10:50:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Yeah, Campbell was cool -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:14:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Jesus became 'Messiah' in 350 AD, for Christ sake -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 14:52:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Jesus became 'Messiah' in 350 AD, for Christ sake -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 00:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Gracias Padre Migelito -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 03:49:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- 'the will of God' -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:01:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- 'the will of God' -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:42:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- 'the will of God' -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 09:39:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- What makes Walsch more valid than you or me? -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:28:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- 'the will of God' is called evolution -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:28:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Not wishing to restart the evolution debate, Pat.. -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 18:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Shit happens, so there is no God? -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 00:56:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Not talking as a scientist but as an old acid-head -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 19:51:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- OK - that's cool - so why 'Will of God'? -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:40:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- So why 'Will of God'? Meant ''wiill of man.'' -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 01:59:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Intelligence. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 19:41:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Absoultely not, Anth.... -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 21:04:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Intelligence is what my spies tell me -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 20:07:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- PS It was not easy talking to two people who -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 02:03:20 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy warp -:- About atheism -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 00:23:36 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Keep on kicking the tyres .Best Wishes (nt) -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 22:30:34 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- On letting the heart speak -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:44:25 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- On letting the heart speak -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:44:48 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Bit of a drama queen there, Sandy... -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:41:03 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Notice that the torpedo is not targeting the big -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 03:21:28 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Drama...queen?? -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Just a friendly dig, mate... -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 18:11:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I can dig it (nt) -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:43:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Drama queens don't talk baseball! -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:20:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You can back me up but not too close..haha (nt) -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:45:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- You can back me up but not too close..haha (nt) -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 09:51:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Amazed -:- You -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:52:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hey Janet, feeling OK? -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:01:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Gosh Ji -:- By golly Janet, are you feeling OK? -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:15:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Sandy that was a great thread that you started -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:55:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hey Pat -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:38:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hey Sandy, glad to here you sounding strong -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:51:24 (GMT)

JHB -:- Using the Mind -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:58:07 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Excellent, excellent point, John -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:14:11 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- no oxy, business man to the end -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:17:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Oxy -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 19:53:15 (GMT)

Christian Star -:- Belated response to la-ex -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:28:53 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Stereotypical Cult Think ?? -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 09:44:50 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- A question. -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 17:56:35 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- maharaji hiding every aspect of himself and... -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 05:56:43 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- great la-ex, plus these questions -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 05:54:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- great la-ex, plus these questions -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 06:58:16 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- I disagree where you agree. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 02:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Another brilliant essay, ex-lax -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:32:51 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- I can't decide whether you're crackers .... -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:33:40 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- I can't decide whether she's crackers ....or Jim -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 03:12:21 (GMT)
__ cq -:- pardon me for jumping the queue ... -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:52:27 (GMT)
__ __ Christian Star -:- pardon me for jumping the queue ... -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:06:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- 'Maharaji' is nothing but an icon -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:41:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- Maharaji is for me a special connection -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:05:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- ..badge, emblem, lucky mascot, logo. Great Post! -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:17:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- I had a 'pure' experience too, Ms Star ... -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:33:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ In a Nutshell -:- The techniques work -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:24:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- I must be perfect! -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:56:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- I had a 'pure' experience too, Ms Star ... -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:02:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- I had a 'pure' experience too, Ms Star ... -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:34:18 (GMT)

Christian Star -:- Message from EV to online newsletter subscribers -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:04:27 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- I agree with you Christian. -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 18:05:24 (GMT)
__ Santa -:- What do you want for Christmas? -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:19:50 (GMT)
__ __ Christian Star -:- I have been out -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:02:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- you may not be aware of it, but we have here -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:50:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Christian;Man and woman marry.... -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:05:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- I have been out -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:51:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ One who knows -:- Don't pin your hopes -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:35:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- Not a matter of pinning hopes -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:09:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Your master -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:10:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ One who knows -:- Gratitude spatitude -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:41:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You sound like you have you head screwed on right -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:05:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- gratitude -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ George -:- gratitude -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:49:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Stage show - exactly... -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 23:56:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- I have been out -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:47:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- I have been out -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:18:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- 'Jesus -- plus more' you say? -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:18:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- If that were there case -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:24:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- 'Jesus -- plus more' you say? -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 23:20:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- please find her the thread on EV like Jones' -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 10:11:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- interesting point about where we get our news on m -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 16:16:08 (GMT)

TiM -:- New clickon news add area to this site? -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 15:56:57 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- Clarification - This Forum and the EPO Site -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:17:07 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- It's cheap: It makes sense. -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:29:22 (GMT)
__ sb -:- Great idea!! -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:51:59 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- New clickon news add area to this site? -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:49:24 (GMT)

Carl -:- Lets see: There's Lard of course, and BM, MahaHaha -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 10:43:41 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- I liked Barry Bollix Shaw , but it never took (nt) -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 22:15:08 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- 'Ere, you having a go at me Bin? -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 04:07:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Oops , my mishtake , forgot about you (nt) -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bazza -:- No worries mate, I've bin called worse recently nt -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 03:29:47 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- These nicknames from FV Glossary -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:23:37 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Got a new one, I think -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:21:52 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- I just knew there was a 'Master List' (ouch) -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:38:03 (GMT)
__ Gary -:- Lets see: There's Lard of course, and BM, MahaHaha -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 15:00:11 (GMT)
__ __ Me Again -:- Oh yeah and Rev. Moonbeam, Urug, Urug Uturn . . . -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 15:50:35 (GMT)
__ Zelda -:- Malarky, Ringwiath, Jalopy, Balletyogashwamp -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 10:54:53 (GMT)
__ __ nt -:- don't fergit Filament and RawRatt (TM) nt -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:51:09 (GMT)

Bob -:- So let's do it ! -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 02:25:14 (GMT)
__ SB -:- I'm in -GOOD IDEA! -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 03:06:58 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Nottingham Program June 16-17 -- CALLING BRITS -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 17:21:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- Nottingham Program June 16-17 -- CALLING BRITS -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 03:17:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Joe / Creativejani - Email about IT if you like nt -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 11:22:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Good idea for those discreet cards for premies... -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 04:36:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Good idea for those discreet cards for premies... -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:47:31 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Email me .. and which thread doya mean??nt -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 08:11:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- Email me .. and which thread doya mean??nt -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:13:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- American programs -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 14:42:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Have any US programs been announced? (nt) -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:44:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- No, just a rumor about Worchester, Mass. (nt) -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 17:09:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- I'll mak e the banners. NT -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 14:59:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Email me .. and which thread doya mean??nt -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 12:33:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- ADD -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 20:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- ADD -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:26:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- Email me .. -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 09:26:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Public event in Mauritius -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 15:24:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Poor Indians receive k by 1000ds!! -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:46:26 (GMT)


Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:42:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Captain Rawat isn't finished yet.
Message:
Things have not being going well for Captain Rawat and his cult for the past couple of years. Recruits are down. Donations are down. Attendance at events is down. Video programmes are closing. Devotees are dropping like leaves in autumn, and the exiting is working like distillation, leaving only the extremely ambitious and the extremely nutty. A volatile process which will surely end in tears. In the UK the cult can’t even afford the stamps for their begging letters.

But the Captain isn’t finished yet. He held a secret meeting at Amaroo with cult intellectuals (there’s a contradiction in terms) to come up with a plan to turn the tide of defections. The Captain needed something with a bit of razzmatazz. Those sickly slide shows of waterfalls and flowers, interspersed with inane comments about remembering to breath don’t hit the spot any more. The videos don’t bring them in the way they used to.

Apparently the meeting was getting uncomfortable, until a journalist who can also see into the future leapt up and said, “I see it all Lord. There are lights. There is music. There is a Krishna crown. There are gopis, and one thousand arti-trays. And in the centre there is you Lord, in all your glory, no longer imprisoned on a throne, but gliding around the stage with the grace and elegance of a swan.

Well, the Captain went for it in a big way. I guess he’s getting a bit desperate, as the monthly payments on the private jet are slipping behind. They spent a couple of days coming up with a script. The Captain made a few alterations. The costumes were ordered. Musicians were auditioned and a couple of songs written for Daya. They are in secret rehearsal at the moment, but my contacts at the “Theatre”, via the left wing council in my home town, Nottingaham, sneaked me in for a preview.

To be honest, it really worried me, because I think the new concept just might work. I hate to say it, but I was impressed. They’re putting on a 90 minute spectacular:

Maharaji on Ice.

It includes ice dances representing past Perfect Masters. The Captain will play all the past masters (his skating is surprisingly good). The scene I saw where he played Jesus, and rose from the dead was quite moving. They hoisted him off the ice 30 metres above the stage, where he disappeared in a large fluffy cloud. A booming voice rang out, “Welcome home he who is greater than me.” The Captain wore a longhaired wig, false beard, and white sheet. I could almost have believed it was Christ himself, ascending to Heaven, until one of his ice skates dropped off and knocked John the Baptist out. (He needed five stitches.)

His portrayal of the Buddha was also quite moving. He came gliding onto the ice on a little sledge, sitting meditating. He did rather spoil it when he lit up a Marlborough. He said he was tense, and promised the director he wouldn’t to do it on the night.

The climax to the show is the Krishna set. Originally they wanted to do it with a real elephant. Getting the ice skates on the beast wasn’t such a problem as you might imagine. They shoved it onto the ice and it glided slowly across the rink with the Lord on top, but when the elephant stopped the ice cracked and Krishna had to jump off. Fortunately he wasn’t wearing his papier mache crown at the time, and no serious damage was done.

Anyway, at the end, a thousand gopis glide onto the stage with arti-trays, and the whole audience sing along. (The words will be printed in the programme.) It was a bit like a Nuremburg rally on acid. It was very atmospheric. I could almost believe I was in medieval India, next to a lake after a sudden freeze.

The show is taking place at the Nottingham Ice Rink in June. I think this could be the turning point in the Captains fortunes. Apparently the hall, which holds about 160 people, is already sold out. I guess they expect to make their money on the video.

Nottingham Ice Rink is a symbolic venue for the Captain. He is known to be a great fan of the artistic ice dancers, Torvill and Dean, who won a gold medal in the Olympic games a few years ago. He is apparently quite excited about skating at the same ice rink.

If the show is successful, there are plans to move it to London.

So, don’t forget, you heard it here first.

Anth the reliable source of information.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:07:37 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: hahahahahahahahahhhahahahahahahahhahahahahah NT
Message:
hahahhahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahha
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:10:06 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yes, it was quite entertaining when maha did the
Message:
triple axel loop-de-loop thingy with his skates on backwards and landed flat on his plushy tushy. Apparently the North American premiere will be co-produced by Ice Capades and Barnum & Bailey, sponsorship by Courvoisier. I so enjoyed the prancing hamsters, where did Glen find those miniature skates?
p.s. cross-dressing David Smith doing the pirouette in the ballerina skirt was priceless. Who knew?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:13:15 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: AJW
Subject: Should this succeed...
Message:
as I fear it will... rawatt- guru on ice, will go sailing
over his present troubles, and pirouette his way into the hearts
of young and old the world over. The head spins at this bold new
approach to fundraising and propagation. His clever minions have
the ability to book every ice ring in the world! - effectivly
edging out any would be competition. 'Maha on Ice' (with the
familiar krisna hat/skate logo) The wobble dance on ice w/ salsa
music. Sequined costumes, feather boas, polka music played by
smooth skating devotees with flashy accordians. Command performances with Yanni at the Ice palace, or the three tenors.
The River Dancers on Ice with 'Lord of the Ice'

Marketing opportunities: a remake of his golden logo on a chain,
guru cube ice, hawkers plying the eager crowds with captain fudgebars. Sonja Henny lookalikes selling video performances on late night TV. Iced drinks / hot drinks, scater-ade.
Imagine the appreciative hamster- cheeks puffing from a difficult
triple axel combination zigzagging his way across the flower strewn ice having just played the brilliant role of Eldrich Cleaver's (yes, again) Soul on Ice. The slippery effect of bhakti juju mixed with razor edge dexterity- creating an ice folly the world has never known.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:23:59 (GMT)
From: Ones who practices K
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: This is true unlike Anth's story
Message:
Has it already been mentioned that there are 4 new promotional videos just out for premies only of 1, Maharaji speaking about himself & K 2, Marilyn peaking about m & K, 3, Prem Lata talking about m & K 4, Amar talking about m & K. I'm looking forward to seeing them.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 01:27:36 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Ones who practices K
Subject: Sounds like a lot of fun, Roy
Message:
Hope you have an experiemce - and I mean an experience of happiness you would not have achieved without the new video product. Guess I should let you be the judge of that. And anyway, what the fuck do sin-blackened souls such as I know about happiness?

But I would pay sensible money to see the ice show.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 01:33:54 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: oops - not Roy - I meant the holy family here...
Message:
Sorry Roy. Replied in the wrong place.
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:30:02 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Ones who practices K
Subject: Looking forward to seeing Marolyn Peaking
Message:
OK, let's assume Maharaji is the Perfect Master, but considering that Maharaji banned satsang given by premies, what qualifications do members of his family have to speak about knowledge?

John the amazed at how corrupt the cult has got.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:39:42 (GMT)
From: C.g.
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I was waiting for that (ot)
Message:
As we peak! We must be tickling the keys at the same moment in time. Cool! We could get into snooker, building houses or all manner of things that just must be a bit more productive but less intersting of course

C.G.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:45:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: C.g.
Subject: me too I was going to comment
Message:
I'm the last one who should laugh at typos but that was a good one :)
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:41:48 (GMT)
From: C.G.
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Now give me a hard time about intersting!
Message:
Good word though ... what would it mean?

C.G.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:19:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: Yes Roy, we're screwed. (nt)
Message:
may as well call it a day.
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 10:59:57 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: My source agrees and....
Message:
...says there's a planned segment for the skating Rawat with his famous flower dress on to play badminton with himself. Can you imagine all the EWS and Ahs from the totally mesmerized audience as Rawat finally manifests HIS GRACE?
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 15:15:02 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Thanks for the report Anth - brilliant!
Message:
So that's how you cross the ocean deep - wait'll it freezes and just skate across! Coooool, man. Now if Tonya Harding could be persuaded to slip in as one of the gopis....................
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 19:54:14 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Will M's autobiography be called 'Soul on Ice'? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 20:07:24 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: 'Soul on Ice' already taken
Message:
He can't use 'Soul on Ice' Postie. Eldridge Cleaver of Black Panther fame already wrote a book by that title. And a good one it is.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 01:14:00 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: 'Soul on Ice' already taken - I knew that
Message:
Should my wry wit have been why writ? I read Soul On Ice in about '67 or so - powerful. Trying to be funny.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 09:01:00 (GMT)
From: Swami Gosh Ji
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Your wit was too wry -like dry ice
Message:
''Asshole on Dry Ice'' would be more in keeping with the slapstick humor of FV.

I can see it now - the new darshan for the 21st century. You walk slowly through the blue tunnel punctuated by the solemn faces of the industrial strength church ladies all smiling like self-renewing virgin madonnas on LSD until you reach the throne which is hidden in a billow of clouds from dry ice. Yanni filters softly from hidden speakers and there, as the mist parts, you see two beautiful soft round brown cheeks.

On either side stand David Smith and Glen Whittaker holding those cheeks apart so that you can kiss Rev Rawat's lotus bud.

PatC - I'd rather kiss my dog's nose at least I know where that's been.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 11:07:21 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Rawat playing with himself on ice? A must see nt
Message:
x
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 10:51:34 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Captain Rawat in ice spectacular !LOL and LOLnt
Message:
and LOL again!
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:49:12 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: anth, richard et al:
Subject: when hell freezes over-! and i quote
Message:
from Robert Frost: (FROST, no less.--you know--rime?)

'Some say, the world will end in Fire,
Some say, in Ice.

From what I've tasted of Desire,
I hold with those who favor Fire.

But I think I know enough of Hate,
to say that Ice is also great,

and certainly would suffice.'

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:13:20 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: On letting the heart speak
Message:
Hi Everybody,

I have been thinking about all the emphasis that Maharaji places on leting the heart speak, dance, sing, breathe, beat, skip to my loo...letting the heart do its thing. By its very nature, it cannot be edited, abridged, or altered in any way and still be the message of the heart. It has to be unbridled, like those horses he was talking about.

Well, folks, my freed up heart is telling me that something is very uncomfortable to my heart in Maharaji's world...not the experience of Knowledge, but in the physical world that he lives in and functions in as a mortal human being. So no word games here, let's be clear. God Almighty knows my heart and I have no fear of any negative repurcussions. If Christ let Thomas stick his finger in His side to allow him to KNOW the reality, then I approach my formless God in the same spirit, and do not feel the least bit less of a lover of truth to come right up and kick Maharaji's tires to see if the thing is solid or not. If he is offended, then that is not the Spirit I was seeking, was it? It's real, sincere and for some damned good reasons as expressed on this here site.

So to all you folks who are monitoring this site from EV and Maharaji's offices, here I am, boldly approaching the throne of Grace (not Maharaji's chair, but the throne of Divine Grace in my own heart), and asking most seriously and without reservation:
WASSSSSSSSSSSSUP????????????

To all ex-premies, I stand with you as far as questioning the way PEOPLE were and are mistreated under the authority of Maharaji, his assistants, agents and representatives. Things having NOTHING to do with God, love, peace, or any related matters have happened without any explanation or effort to clear up.

AND MY HEART CRIES FROM IT, MAHARAJI. YOU WANT TO HEAR MY HEART? HEAR THIS. AND I AM JUST A BYSTANDER, NOT EVEN INVLOVED DIRECTLY. I CAN ONLY IMAGINE HOW THOSE PEOPLE FEEL WHO WERE DIRECTLY IMPACTED BY SOME OF THE THINGS RECORDED HEREIN. NOW WHY WOULD YOU SAY TO LISTEN TO MY HEART AND THEN TURN A DEAF EAR TO IT IF IT'S NOT ALL ROSEY POSEY?

I could care less about the 'stuff'...the money and all it can buy. Teachers have come as aesthetics and as kings, I have no problem with that. Wisdom is not limited to the barefoot ash covered sadhu or the crowned bejeweled sovereign. Both can be valid if they deliver the wisdom and live as righteous examples.

Sandy the Doubter

PS I did not leave room for doubt in my mind, never. The doubts came about from the pain and suffering I felt IN MY HEART from brothers and sisters here on this site at the hands of someone or something emanating from Maharaji himself. The doubts are in my HEART, not in my mind, based on live human beings' feedback. I will not write them off as 'acceptable losses in the battle to bring peace to the world', no way.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 05:23:43 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy,about this mind/heart business with m...
Message:
I agree totally with your post, especially the part about the doubts and questions coming from your heart, not mind.

I have always said that my journey away from maharaji began as a calling from my heart to know the truth.
It ended with my understanding how trapped I was and how free I became by letting go of the maharaji/premie filter I had been conditioned to see the world through.

About this heart/mind issue with m...

I think this is a major way in which premies are controlled and manipulated by maharaji.

He sets them up with the basic proposition that you are only in your heart or mind, and that's it.

Of couurse, heart is everything good, mind is everything bad.
Of course, every good premie wants to be in their heart, not mind, right?

Now remember, you can only be in one place or the other...

So, when those doubts come up, when those stories from first hand witnesses come up, when you begin to see that a lot of what he says and does, doesn't make sense....what do you do?

You remember that if you're not in the heart, you're in the mind, and get as far away as possible.

Of course, maharaji always tells premies that all he talks about is the heart.
He is only about the heart.
Therefore anything else, is of the mind.
Don't get into it. If it's anti-maharaji, it's of the mind, not the heart.
It's that simple, as he always says...

In doing this manipulation on the premie psyches, he is actually leading them away from THEIR heart, and into following him.

HOWEVER, here is the hitch:

This Blind Spot (BS) in the premie belief system which allows maharaji a free pass on all of this stuff (ie: 'I can't judge my master', or 'he doesn't judge me, so I don't judge him), is now going to be exposed, as maharaji tells them to go onward and outward into propagation.
As premies spread the word, it will only take a few outraged and pissed off aspirants in each community to make them see what they are doing...doing to these poor aspirants and doing to themselves..
I guess each person reacts to it in their own unique way,but I
had this happen to me a couple of times and was a major reason for my beginning to post here...after a few weeks, the process was under way and freedom a reality...

I believe this conflict is inevitable for anyone actively supporting propagation...

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:03:50 (GMT)
From: free
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Pss
Message:
Thanks for the 'clarity'.
My subconsciente mind is saturated with lies and to hear the and to hear stuff like this brings a spooky feeling for a second and then, a sweet remeberance taht I'm free. I'm keeping this one; you're so right.

Coolaid? No need of colaid for some us,going for the mind was sufficient: I realize now taht I was emotionally dead. I couldn't talk. I wasn't allowed to talk folks. NO CHIT CHAT, remember? WHO IS THE CREATOR OF DOUBTS?? LARD OF COURSE. he drove some of us nuts asking to surrender to him too many times...

If it wasn't because many loved ones have access to this forum I would explain a particular way how I tried to commit suicide; it's documented, and was in the news. I miracously did not died and was hospitalized for a month and a half in a Psychiatric Hospital, diagnosed with severe depresion, allucinations and dilussions. I was in a coma for 2 days and when I came out I found myself strapped to a bed, both hands and feet tied. Very humiliating. Can you imagine what they told me about MY LORD?
Another time I took all medications in my home and had my stomack pumped; i almost died there too, and there where other two episodes more... My mental problems did not start after few years of being in the cult: I always felt I wasn't even good to love this GOD. My heart was telling me he was no good and the conflict was hard to bear.. Very sad.

Good post la-ex

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 03:15:11 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Nothing has changed, notice how he
Message:
still wont dethrone m or even let rawat be responsible for anything.

'To all ex-premies, I stand with you as far as questioning the way PEOPLE were and are mistreated ---under the authority of Maharaji, his assistants, agents and representatives'---

Echoeing the dominating narcissist, 'do not EVER question the
purity of the master.'

Still the slave cowering at the 'master'.

Dettmers, Donner, all the rest be damned, fear rules this one.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:06:59 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Bill, Bill, Bill
Message:
Dear Bill,

You need to take a course in reading comprehension, and maybe one on self-esteem enough to captialize your own name. What's that about anyway, trying to demonstrate how humble you are?

Sandy

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:25:28 (GMT)
From: bill-I cant be bothered
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: capitalizing the b, and Janet is right..........nt
Message:
sghng
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 20:23:18 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: bill-I cant be bothered
Subject: capitalizing the b, and Janet is right..........nt
Message:
sometimes me either. And who cares?

And I LOVE myself today!! hahahahahaha

Hi billy,hi sandy.

sb :)

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:30:46 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: bill-I cant be bothered
Subject: You mean you ageee with her...that's as far as you
Message:
can see. Good luck in reading comp school.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:55:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: you dodged his observation. he nailed you.
Message:
its a great performance, sandy, but you still have yourself subjugated to the pipsqueak on the throne as if he belonged there and it meant something. he will never answer you. nothing is going to make sense until the bubble pops and you 'get it' that that guy in the chair isnt anyone, doesnt know anything, isnt worthy of any of what you have given him nor does he have anything that you have attributed to him.

mastery isnt for others. its something you work at over a lifetime for yourself, for your own desire or need to understand. whether others see it or not is irrelevant to the pursuit. we find our models and heroes by ourselves. they do not come thundering down on us , intimidating us with orders to worship and please them.
respect has to be earned. it cant be gotten any other way. and mastery may be seen in the eyes of the beholder, but the honest person will never declare themselves a master, because the more one finds out about something, the more they realize how much they still do not know about it. the honest person is acutely conscious of what they do not know and brushes off the label of 'master' when it is pasted on them.

until you walk away from your diehard need to look in the direction of that shrill manipulator, and you begin to realize the enormity of the lie that has consumed your years, and you come to understand that you are and always have been, more important than he is, you are still trapped in it, sandy.

your post was all an act. it was all a drama. you might as well have fallen on your knees and beat your breast and wailed 'Mea culpa, mea culpa' with great shining crocodile tears, for all it meant.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:03:25 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Janet
Message:
Maybe you and Bill can get a group discount if you apply together at the reading comprehension school.
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:06:59 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: to la-ex
Message:
Hi la-ex

I recently picked up a little book entitled 'The Law of Success' by Paramahansa Yogananda for a measley $2.00 at Borders. I got more positive input about how to do my own life from that than I have gotten from Maharaji in over 20 years of listening.

Love from your brother,
Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 01:42:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Following a path with heart
Message:
Love, joy, peace can't be organized into an institution the way Rev Strangelove has done it, the way all gurus do it.

Now if M had come to the west and worked with a handful of premies, taught them meditation (which of course he never does and does not know how to teach and teaches the techniques backwards) and then said to them go out and give this knowledge of joy to your friends and family it may have never come to this bad place where he is today.

If he had NOT controlled it, organized it, institutionalized it and turned it into a money-making religion... well, then he would probably be a poor man but a happy man and millions of people would have been turned onto the joy of Knowledge by their friends and lovers quietly and without all the hype and BS.

When all this is over, Sandy, and you have rediscovered your own strength and become clear and happy once again, what's the bet that you will make a wonderful, loving, kind and responsible meditation teacher sharing the joy that you have found with your friends and lovers.

Be kind to yourself too.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 15:16:17 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Following a path with heart
Message:
True enuff. One of the major conundrums I had when in the fold was, irony-of-ironies, that maha himself was the biggest obstacle in propagation. So much weird baggage, re-inventions, and revisionism attached to his persona. So much 'splaining to do. Now there is a corporate/robo/merchandising culture to wade thru. To keep the whole shambala straight m has to do all the talking. Seems as if the simple gift for the heart has gotten fairly mired in it's own muck.
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:11:17 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: To Pat
Message:
Yeah Pat,

But the sad part is that I married a woman who is 'gone' so to speak over Maharaji and will not even listen with an open mind or heart (God, I hate that fucking dichotomy!) about what I have learned, and we have two teenage sons and she wants to separate over that and the fact that she is still playing the 'vicitm' to my 'bad guy' in her head.

This too shall pass...

Love from your brother,

Sandy

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:22:55 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: To Sandy
Message:
You cannot imagine the happiness I feel looking at what is happening to you. Life is yours now to enjoy as a real human being without the need of crutches or false beliefs.
Life is much more real than that.

Whatever you do don't come back. THINK.

All my love to you, beautiful people. :)

I'm glowing...

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:10:56 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Sandy
Subject: To Sandy.. on mind-heart so-called dichotomy
Message:
yeh I hate that too... and the fact that once you get the idea permeated through your 'head' that your 'heart' is a completely separate sort of self-contained entity... it takes years to get rid of that idea. The latest neurophysiological research is confirming wot my lonely philosopher friend Frank has always said... namely 'Thinking is a feeling'.
I do hope your marriage situation can be resolved somehow so that you can all be happier... not easy, I know. But a lot easier if you do not have a lot of cult-like nonsense thoughts runnung through your head!
Email me if you like... cos I can relate to a lot of your situation...
All the best
Moldy
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:09:40 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: To Moldy
Message:
Hey Fungus,

How you doin'?

I am ONE person with tools and powers at my disposal, and to which I listen and learn and come up with the way I be. One of these is my heart and one of these is my mind. It's interesting that Maharaji says to trust the heart and not to trust the mind, for Christ said that what defiles a person is not what goes into their stomach and out the tube, but evil that emanates from the HEART. So trusting the heart and not trusting the mind is not a totally valid way to deal, if Christ is worth His salt, which I happen to think He is. Heart can fool ya as well as mind, and both can be great allies, too. The phrase comes to mind, 'his heart is in the right place'...now if that be the case then it can be trusted. So what is the right place? I believe it is to be in inner surrender to the Divine Will, even if we don't know exactly what that means or how it will manifest. And trusting in love but not being stupid or naive about it...being wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:12:48 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Sandy
Subject: To Sandy with kind thoughts
Message:
One of the first things you ever said to me was ''from one piece of god to another.'' So, as one of the six billion other pieces of god walking this planet let me say you know life's tough not all of the time thank god but sometimes and god helps those who help themselves and us old farts have to be a bit stoical unless you decide to start an early second childhood like I have.

You have to be tough to survive tough times. You know where to get your inner strength. It's all in you and always was. Give yourself permission to be strong and happy and loving and giving not neutered by a socalled Master. You're it. You are the Master of your own destiny.

As the Bard said: ''Stiffen those sinews, summon up the blood, disguise fair nature.....''

Have you ever read anything about or by Ramana Maharshi? I will think optimistic thoughts about you for a good outcome to your predicament. You know you can email whenever you want. I was so newly out from under the spell that I could not really be kind to you and sympathise and was very cold to you sometimes. I apologise.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:13:36 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: To Pat C with kind thoughts
Message:
Hey Pat,

Thanks for the kind thoughts yourself. I have been having a very good run lately, lots of positive energy and strength, lots of opportunities to do right livlihood and all that. I am not attached to the outcome anymore with my spouse. She has her yes and her no and can use them any way she wants and I can't stop her even if I really believe separation is a big mistake. Maybe it isn't in some cases. Anyway, your kind thoughts are appreciated and felt ovah heah in Joisy.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 01:16:51 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Get out while you can!
Message:
Sandy,

The following article is what's been happenning to premies in India who have been sitting on the fence too long. They've been terrorizing the neighborhood. Rumor has it, it's going to start happenning to western premies any day now. Get out while you still can! Forget about your heart! This is serious!!!

Oh, my God, it's Monkey Man!

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:18:45 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry, what the fuck...?
Message:
Sounds like the 'chupacabra' of Central America...what's the tie to premies?

Anyway, yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, for Thou art with me.

And besides that, my heart has been out since I first heard of some of the shit that happened to premies that apparently no one in authority thought was worthy to do anything about. Only my intellect has been engaged and that seems to be fading too in this middle of the night soul search.

Love from your brother,
Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 11:48:57 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Just goofin'
Message:
Sandy,

I figured my post would come across as being a little feebleminded, but I figured what the heck. I read that article in the news yesterday and was going to post it as an 'OT' (I thought it was really interesting) when I saw your post about the heart and decided 'hey, why not post it here?' Like I said, just goofin'.

I am totally bored with Maharaji. There is nothing about him these days I want to discuss, not his philosophy, not his whereabouts, his doings, the guy just doesn't interest me, anymore. I consider that a good thing. So, really, I've got no interest in posting anymore if it's not OT.

Good luck with disengaging your intellect from this trip. As time passes, Maharaji will lose his grip on you (as he has been, I'm sure), and you won't suffer because of it. It's not a good thing, this bhakti yoga import Maharaji brought over with him. It's not the way to go in life. No human being can possibly live up to the expectations we had of Maharaji, and which he encourages people to have. It's all a dream he invites you into. This website is our wakeup call.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 00:43:24 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Listen to your heart = Bhakji Juju
Message:
I think this 'listen to your heart' line that M is so fond of is western cultspeak for the bhakti juju.

I think what he's saying when he says that is focus all your love and attention (and of course money) on me and you can get blissed out by believing that I am God in person. That bliss is what he's terming 'heart'. It's not heart at all. It's misguided worship of a phoney supposed God, who is counting on people believing he's such for the whole charade to work.

As Sandy says, 'heart' speaks in many ways, not just phoney bliss. Do the techniques of Knowledge in and of themselves produce a 'heart' experience? I don't think so. I think M is capitalizing on it by turning the focus on himself (when it's initially sold as YOU are the one who needs inner peace, etc., isn't it?). He wouldn't get any devotees at all, would he, if he advertised it as a 'heart' experience? So he's guilty of false advertising, that's for sure. Knowledge of God and inner peace somehow gets translated as a 'heart' thing after you've signed on the dotted line. In my experience in the cult, the Knowledge techniques didn't produce an experience of God, or inner peace, and my heart was waylaid from experiencing real human emotions for my fellow human beings, family and friends by its useless distraction and focus on M.

'Listen to your heart' is a major guilt trip he uses to keep the wavering and skeptical roped in (he needs their money and adoration for his ego). It makes me really angry to hear it. It's manipulative in the extreme.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:25:54 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Let's put it this way, Joy
Message:
I don't buy a master who has the same frailties as I do and as all the rest of humanity has. If he has the same frailties, then he is no more a master than any one of us. To be merely a dispenser of techniques and a generator of a show-biz charisma is not the measure of a master to me. He must walk the walk as well as talk the talk or else I may as well sit at the feet of the guy at the bar across the street who speaks alot of wisdom through his vodka cloud of bliss but does not live it.

Love from your brother,

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 17:20:16 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I was rubbing my eyes yesterday Joy (and Sandy)
Message:
and I noticed that the cosmic doughnut appeared.

So I sat and looked at it -(actually I had rubbed so hard that I didn't have much choice!). I thought about how for 12 years I looked at this light and tried to believe that it was God, and that it was transmitting love to me. But really it's no more loving than a spotlight. It's some kind of natural phenomenon, and the divine or whatever is surely in it, but it isn't any more or less God than a traffic light.

I am very fond of the near-death experience research of Kenneth Ring, in particular as described in the mind-blowing book 'Lessons From the Light.' In reading the thousands of descriptions, from all cultures and religions and all parts of the world, by people who have had NDE's and seen light at the end of a review of their lives, the remarkable thing is that they describe how they feel that they are UNCONDITIONALLY LOVED by the light. It's not just a light, but a presence, a feeling. When I first read this stuff (Moody's earliest book) I was still a premie, and I felt chuffed that I was able to experience this loving light while still alive because I had 'the secret.' But I remember vaguely that it was also a drip, because in my meditation (and I did hours and hours and hours because I was sick and thought that would heal me) although I could project onto the light some of the feelings I had felt in a program towards MJ, and although I tried really hard to believe that I was experiencing the presence of God, I wasn't. Except when I was, which didn't have much to do with that particular technique. I still have experiences when I feel an alive, sacred presence in everything, which I might call an experience of the presence of God (in the right company, although I would NEVER say it on this forum!). But I feel sad that for so many years I was looking for 'God' in this one, very introverted, very separate-from-everything way, covered by a blanket, as though my incarnation into this place with all the other beings here was a big mistake and I just had to get BACK to the father or some such crap.

So glad I have woken up. Love to you Joy and Sandy and all.

Disculta Darling

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:31:41 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Cosmic Donuts: Fun, but not God
Message:
Great story (and post) Disculta. I think I mentioned it here before but by far my greatest experience of 'The Light' was when I opened a blasting hot gas fired oven to put something in it and it just momentarily blinded me. Much brighter than what I'd seen in meditation. So it is just a physical phenomenon.

To tell the truth, I had a better experience of 'God' at Grateful Dead concerts (even sans drugs) than I did under my blanket. He/She/It's everywhere, not just experienceable by the four techniques, as M would have us believe. As the Buddha supposedly once said -- 84,000 paths to realization!

P.S. Not that I think Jerry was God, mind you, as a few die-hard Deadheads used to have on their T-shirts -- it's just an easy mistake to make when you have a transcendental experience (and honestly, he gave me a lot more than M did) -- to assume the vessel it comes through is somehow more divine than you and worthy of worship. Ain't necessarily so. I think Jerry was always pretty good at disavowing any part in what he did for people, he just got up and did his job, people's experience was up to them.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:22:30 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Cosmic Donuts: Fun, but not God
Message:
You don't have to answer if you don't want to, if it's too personal.

My boyfriend introduced me to the music of GDead not long a go ( I had no clue of the group) and now that I just realize who you are, just simple curiosity, I have a personal question. Did Jerry ever received K? And did you divorced because you wanted to stay with Lard and Jerry wanted to be free?

Thanks. :)

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:39:38 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Hey Joy, remember this?!
Message:
I don't know if I posted this story of you online or just by e-mail, but I have to tell it again.

When Joy and I were living at 1560 Race Street ashram in Denver back in 1976, she snuck off one night to see a big Who concert at a stadium. Not the Dead, the Who! The next day she was totally blissed out, and kept telling everyone that the feeling at the Who concert was better than at any Maharaji program. I remember thinking she was a bit confused - hahahahahaha.

But actually, Joy, it was a 'drip' for me, although it didn't 'take' for many years (apparently not for you either). When you said that a Who concert was more blissful than a Maharaji show, it stuck in my brain. All sorts of thoughts about the 'feeling' being really just a phenomenon of group energy (which I sort of knew at some level anyway) were fomented by your innocent quip.

Quip on, babe. love Katie

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:31:41 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: The Who = More Blissful Than M!
Message:
I certainly remember the show, but I don't remember making that comment! I remember I went with Jean Locke. I think it was the beginning of the 'spaced out' year for me, when I moved out of the 'shram for a year or so, and smoked dope every single day and went to lots of rock concerts. I was a real rocker in my youth (have turned into a folkie in my middle age here, but that's another story). There's something very powerful about a large group of people focused on a stage and having a simultaneous positive experience. This is exactly what we experienced at those 'festivals' with M, just substituting devotion to him for the music. And I think back then the One Foundation music fueled the whole thing as well, music is a very powerful medium to higher consciousness and blissful experiences.

Anyhow, glad that was a 'drip' for you -- I don't know how these types of things came out of my mouth--what an undevoted thing to say!

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:47:56 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: The Who = More Blissful Than M!
Message:
I remember that I was the only Premie I knew who liked the Who. Everyone else was into devotional music or the Grateful Dead. One year the Who and the Dead were going to play a show at the Oakland Coliseum (I think it was 'A Day on the Green). All the premies would ask 'are you going to the Dead show?' and I would answer, 'You mean the Who show, right?' The Who in those days (Keith Moon was still alive) WERE more blissful than M.

Michael the Unrepentant Rocker who sings Monteverde.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 19:19:36 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: The Who AND the Dead = More Blissful Than M!
Message:
Yeah, the Who were an awesome live band. So were the Dead. People who would listen to a three minute single of My Generation or Truckin would say they weren't into these bands, but they had no idea, the shows were incredible, they'd take you to a whole other level of . . . whatever, I can't say awareness . . . it was sort of indescribable -- just out of yourself, at any rate.

I feel lucky to have been involved in those shows way back then (and I went to an awful lot of Dead shows post-M, as well, that was part of my cult-recovery!). My teenage stepdaughters tried to go to a Who concert in London recently but it was sold out. Yes, they're still performing though without Moon and in their 50s I can't imagine it's as good. The garbage which passes for rock music these days is nothing compared to the good old stuff we got to see, and this is kind of confirmed by these girls being into a lot of the bands we used to listen to as well. We were involved in a real cool slice of history there.

Well, that's enough OT raving here. Nice to compare memories with you, Mickey (like a couple of old folks in their rocking chairs on the porch . . .)

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 00:40:25 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Touching his inner leg (still OT)
Message:
I saw the Who back when they were a local London band in the 60's, and I touched the inner leg of the lead singer - darn, I can't remember his name - the blonde curly guy with surly eyes.

I saw the Dead at Oakland, too, but I was the only un-stoned person in the house (health non-permitting). I loved it, but I wasn't sure I was completely GETTING it.

There is a new band called Phish that I just discovered who do a similar wild improv thing to the Dead. I've been playing them in my car and feeling young and wild.

love Katie

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:15:59 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Did your cosmic donut have rainbow sprinkles? (nt)
Message:
dfasg
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 23:31:20 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Ever considered Atheism Sandy?
Message:
Hi Sandy,

How are you doing?

Have you ever considered becoming an atheist? I've been considering it for a while.

One reason is I'm getting fed up of being an actor in a play who contantly interupts his lines and starts yacking about the author. I think I'd do a better job if I really got into my part, and forget about who wrote the script.

Another reason is, if in fact there is a God, he or she won't give a toss if I believe or not, being full of infinite compassion and all that.

I dunno Sandy, my big experience of the Creator was on acid. I'm starting to doubt.

Whaddya think mate?

Anth who'll try anything once (not always a wise move).

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:37:42 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: To my dear brother Anth
Message:
Hi Anth,

I stake my life on the existence of God, God being Love. I cannot tell you what to do or what to believe or not believe. All I can say is that when I look at my hands and concentrate on them for awhile and realize there are bones and veins and nerves and blood running through them, and realize that I can control those hand with a mere thought or inspiration, I am blown away by the fact that these are only two hands and there are billions of them in the world, not to mention other body parts and planets and stars and galaxies and universes I cannot explain the existence of whatsoever. But it sure feels great to be able to command my hands to do good instead of evil, to type this to you with these hands instead of typing something like how fucked up you are to question something that most certainly demands questioning by any sane caring person.

Yes, Anth, forget the author and play your part, like a great actor who reveres the playwright but forgets him or her for the moment to completely immerse him or her self in their role.

Love from your brother,
Sandy

May my will be united with the Divine will and be in accord and harmony with it.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 01:51:40 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Then try being agnostic
Message:
Because when you look at those hands, you really don't know where they came from, do you?

I think it's more honest to be agnostic. It's an admission that one really doesn't know. And who does?

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 02:44:06 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hands came from paws, and paws from claws...
Message:
...and presents come from Santa Claus.

But I guess it's sort-of true that nobody knows for sure, Jerry, but the evidence is piling up, surely?

Nige the well-and-bloody-truly-convinced atheist.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 00:08:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You didn't finish.
Message:
...and claws come from ...

Try tracing it back all the way. It's a bit like looking at a landscape that disappears into fog. We simply don't know what is 'out there'. There is no reason to think that the landscape simply ends and beyond that there is 'nothingness'. That reasoning is similar to thinking the earth is flat. Besides, there is no such thing as 'nothingness'. Boundary conditions like that don't make sense.

Presents don't come from Santa, but so what?

The evidence for what is piling up? Evolution does not imply that there is no God. At www.talkorigins.org, a question is posed 'Don't you have to be an atheist to accept evolution?' They reply 'No. Many people of Christian and other faiths accept evolution as the scientific explanation for biodiversity.' They define 'Evolution' as 'The fact the frequency of the apperance of alleles in a population of organisms changes over time.' It does not follow that there is no God. Let's not pull a switch here on the definition of evolution.

'...sort-of true that nobody knows for sure'

Actually it is true that nobody knows that God is unlikely. Do you think you know what the likelihood is? Can you prove something about the probability? I haven't seen any such proof from any atheist.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 17:55:36 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: G
Subject: You didn't finish.
Message:
...and claws come from ...

Try tracing it back all the way.

All the way back to what? - single celled organisms or the beginning of the universe..? Let's be clear what we are talking about. The latter is not the province of evolutionary theory. Natural Selection merely renders unnecessary (that word again) any external guiding agent or 'God' to explain the haphazard emergence of complex life-forms. That's all.

As for the beginning of life itself? Well none of us was there, but it has already been shown that forms of the simplest organisms (ie. proto-viruses) can emerge spontaneously from an artificially-induced primordial stew.

It's a bit like looking at a landscape that disappears into fog. We simply don't know what is 'out there'. There is no reason to think that the landscape simply ends and beyond that there is 'nothingness'. That reasoning is similar to thinking the earth is flat. Besides, there is no such thing as 'nothingness'. Boundary conditions like that don't make sense.

What has that to do with evolution or the question of 'design'?

(Presents don't come from Santa, but so what?

This was just a flippant aside with no relevance to anything.)

The evidence for what is piling up? Evolution does not imply that there is no God.

I mean evidence is piling up for Natural Selection being not only necessary but sufficient to account for evolutionary change. Therefore no need for a director of operations.

At www.talkorigins.org, a question is posed 'Don't you have to be an atheist to accept evolution?' They reply 'No. Many people of Christian and other faiths accept evolution as the scientific explanation for biodiversity.' They define 'Evolution' as 'The fact the frequency of the apperance of alleles in a population of organisms changes over time.' It does not follow that there is no God. Let's not pull a switch here on the definition of evolution.

The fact that miscellaneous God-botherers accept (or should I say, have been pretty-well forced to accept after heavy initial resistance) the reality of evolution is of little interest to me, and has zero relevance to questions on the 'nature of nature' that I can see. People may be able to take on board Darwininism, virgin births and Christ's resurrection, but only one of them is science.

'...sort-of true that nobody knows for sure'

Actually it is true that nobody knows that God is unlikely. Do you think you know what the likelihood is? Can you prove something about the probability? I haven't seen any such proof from any atheist.

As I mentioned lower down in the context of so-called paranormal phenomena, it is impossible to prove a negative. But as the number of 'unknowns' diminishes with our vastly increased understanding of biochemistry, so too does the need for miraculous intervention. Sure, nobody can show God doesn't exist, but in the sense just outlined, at least for me, the probability of divine entities calling the shots does change as science progresses - even if you can't assign a numerical value.

(That is to say, at least for the kind of 'God' humans like to believe in - ie. one possessed of human qualities such as intelligence, compassion or intention. Looks very much to me as if 'in the beginning man created God in his own image', rather than vice versa.)


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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 23:04:08 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: ALL the way
Message:
'All the way back to what? - single celled organisms or the beginning of the universe..?'

What part of 'All' don't you understand? Going back to single-celled organisms would be going back part of the way.

'The latter is not the province of evolutionary theory.'

No kidding, so evolutionary theory says nothing about whether there is a God.

'Natural Selection merely renders unnecessary (that word again) any external guiding agent or 'God' to explain the haphazard emergence of complex life-forms. That's all.'

You write 'haphazard' as if you know that to be true, you don't. Natural Selection might mean that God is unnecessary to explain evolution, whether it really does is not at all clear, I don't think it does, I don't think there has been enough time for 'unguided' mutations and Natural Selection to assemble the vastly complex structures that are in living organisms (who really knows?). Unnecessary only means that it didn't have to happen by miracle or intent, it doesn't mean it didn't.
I don't think God is 'external' in the way many theists think, I believe that the material universe is a part of God. Also the guidance does not have to be in the form of any 'violation' of physical 'laws', instead the guidance can (and does, assuming no 'laws were violated') come from the initial conditions of the universe and from physical laws, which I believe come from God. The first cell was a complex life-form, and genetic evolution does not address its emergence.

'forms of the simplest organisms (ie. proto-viruses) can emerge spontaneously from an artificially-induced primordial stew.'

What experiment are you referring to? Was this 'stew' really a faithful reproduction of the primordial stew? How much tinkering did they do? I tend to be sceptical about pronouncements like this. A protovirus is a far cry from the first cell, isn't it a bit of a stretch to call a bit of genetic material that cannot reproduce itself an organism?

'I mean evidence is piling up for Natural Selection being not only necessary but sufficient to account for evolutionary change.'

No, the mutations must first happen, and where is the evidence that they are 'unguided'? Simply because harmful mutations happen? That's not enough.

'miraculous intervention'

Again the idea that God must go around performing miracles.

There is still the issue of the values of physical constants, they are at the precise values required for life. Just coincidence? And the physical laws themselves. Just coincidence that they took on these values and interacted in such a way that life formed? Where do these laws come from?

There is also the hard question, the nature of consciousness.


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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 11:41:08 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: It's that very assumption
Message:
that there is some knowing, loving, divine power that got us all in this rawat mess to start with. We will never really know how much of a part our belief system was influenced by our early upbringing. Now, as adults, we use the word experience as if it is the meat of the sandwich. How much does our belief system influence what we call our experience? We've all been conditioned from our childhood to believe stuff. I, for one, don't really know anything for sure. The stuff I find myself thinking I know, often is exposed as just wanting it to be true for convenience sake.
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:19:49 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: As above, so below
Message:
One quick example:

Parents and children in a healthy relationship...I think the vibe reflects the realtionship between human beings and whoever birthed us into existence.

I'm not going to give up on love because somebody hurt me.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 11:57:56 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Yes Mr Mind, it's about belief, not experience.
Message:
Hi Mr Mind,

I agree with you.

Premies are told that it's an experience that won't fit into words. It's not a belief system, it's something you feel.

This is clearly bullshit. You have to have a set of beliefs intact for it to work. They are carefully slid into your head before you receive knowledge. This is called, 'preparation for knowledge'.

You must believe that:

Captain Rawat is the Master. And if you did a bit deeper you'll also have to believe he's the Perfect Master- like Jesus and Buddha. (Check out the Captain's website.) This also means you have to believe that there is such a thing as a 'Perfect Master'. This concept doesn't exist outside the cult. The reason it exists in the cult is to put Captain Rawat on the same pedestal as Jesus, Krishna, Buddha etc.

You have to believe that what you see when you poke yourself in the eyes is some sort of divine experience of inner light.

You have to believe that what you hear is inner harmony, coming from the source of your being.

You have to believe that when you concentrate on your breath you feel your soul.

You have to believe that God tastes a bit like snot.

You have to believe that Captain Rawat knows more about life than you- despite the fact that his personal life is a total mess.

You have to believe all the money and effort you've put into the cult wasn't wasted.

You have to believe that you haven't made a big mistake.

You have to believe that's it's a big Divine Game, and it will all work out in the end. It sure as hell isn't working out now.

You have to believe you are happy and content and full of joy, living the life of a cult member.

You're right. You have to believe alright.

Anth, 'Well I saw his face, now I'm not a believer, I couldn't go back if I tried,' Der der der da.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:26:21 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Flash to AJW
Message:
Jesus did not say He was anybody special in public until almost the crucifixion. He merely hinted at it with even His closest ones, or that's how the story goes. He just did His thing and those who were looking for a Savior recognized Him. Where's Fr. Mickey for documentation??? It was His disciples who lauded Him and spread the word of who they experienced Him to be.

Now in my experience, Maharaji was presented as the One, in songs and worshipful practices we were given to do - and which we gladly did at the time...'back in the day, as the kids say today. Big difference.

Sandy, nodding but not winking

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 10:50:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Mythological Archetypes and Jesus.
Message:
Hi Sandy,

Wasnt' the earliest recorded Gospel (John) written 50 years after Jesus died?

Have you read Joseph Cambell on avatars? He says that we have this archetype pure being in our mind, like we have an archetype evil being, and loads of others. We dump the label of our 'God in human form' archetype onto anyone who we feel comfortable with: Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed, Captain Rawat, Rev. Moon, and even Superman.

Maybe it's different mythological archetypes for different folks.

Anth, playing with ideas.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:14:18 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yeah, Campbell was cool
Message:
I used to watch him on cable, very interesting guy.

I was watching a cable show very late one night about the Qumran caves and the scrolls they found. This particular show came on about 2:00 am. Wizened old bearded professors and scholars who had studied and researched this stuff all their lives were saying that the scrolls said that Jesus did not die but was revived and taken to the desert Essene community, married, had kids and lived to ripe old age, after successfully completing His mission of reality street theatre to raise human consciousness to the 4th chakra, heart, selfless love level.

Normally, shows like that repeat a few times a month. This one never came on again for some reason.

So I understand that what we think a Master is from scriptures is not always literal.. I also know that the scriptures have been messed with bigtime.

Sandy, going for the message between the lines, the lettereth killeth but the Spirit giveth lifeth.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 14:52:11 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Jesus became 'Messiah' in 350 AD, for Christ sake
Message:
It was at the 'Let's Declare One Messiah Conference' (sorry biblical scholars but I was making lunch while listening to this cable show on Christianity and can't remember the name of the gathering) that the group of Wise Old Guys declared Jesus to be the one Messiah. This was in the mid-300's. The reason this happened was that Constantine wanted to unite his empire and needed one religion to rally around. Father Micky - please help with some details.

Sort of blows a hole in all the touchy feely around Jesus, init?

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 00:03:31 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Jesus became 'Messiah' in 350 AD, for Christ sake
Message:
Richard, he was called The Christ (Greek for Messiah, it was not his last name) by St. Paul in his epistles which are the earliest documents of the Church, and if you accept the Gospel accounts, he was called Messiah or Christ by St. Peter pre-resurrection. So that means from at least 40 CE (if you accept Paul's use of the word) or from 30 CE (if you accept the account in the synoptic gospels).

I believe the 'Let's Declare One Messiah Conference' as you refer to it is the Ecumenical Council of Nicea, in 325, at which the first version of what is called the Nicene Creed was created. Constantine called that council to end the arguments between the Arians and the Orthodox bishops; it was a trinitarian theological argument. Arius claimed that 'there was a time when the Son was not' which made the second person of the Trinity a kind of half-divine half-created being. The orthodox claimed that the second person of the Trinity was of equal substance and importance as the first and third persons. The Council was called to settle the argument (which lasted for quite a while longer) and not to proclaim Jesus Messiah or Christ; that was already accepted doctrine.

Also, in a post just a bit above this entry, Anth had made the comment that the Gospel of John was the earliest gospel. John was the last gospel and was written early in the second century; the earliest is Mark, which contains no birth in a manger with shepherd and Magi visitors, but contains what we call the 'Markan secret,' in which every time someone figures out that Jesus is the Messiah he asks them to keep it quiet. The gospel of Mark also has two endings: one in which the women find the empty tomb and run off frightened, and the second in which the Resurrected Christ appears to Mary of Magdala and the eleven.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 03:49:08 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Gracias Padre Migelito
Message:
Thanks Mickey.

I now feel only slightly less than totally ignorant of the religion I grew up with and spent the last 35 years rejecting. Lately I've been curious about the teachings around Christ so I'll take your comments as a nudge further in that direction.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:01:27 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: 'the will of God'
Message:
dear sandy--i have come to understnad that many people have completely misread the true mechanism by which they interpret the meaning of the phrase 'i want to do God's will' or 'may I be guided by the will of God'.
I was one of those for a good 4 and a half decades of my life. I thought that there was me, with my tiny brain and my faulty ability to see existence, blundering along in limited ignorance and making terrible, offensive mistakes thru the use of my own mind and desire--
]and then there was this huge, vast, all knowing, all seeing, all guiding intelligence that had A Plan, and that I was supposed to try to divine ( pun intended) what it wanted of me.
It was doomed to fail. How could I, if i was such a tiny, flawed creature, ever be able to reach such an impossible level of knowing the Mind of One such as That?

and then just a bout a year ago all that popped. What transformed it was the mind blowing revelation that the real relationship between me and That was not one of flawed to flawless, but that the nature of God is such that my will Is his will. Whatever i want to try, he wants me to have it. Whatever my desire, whatever my conception, it is his will that I have it.

Even including the so called horrible thing People are always wailing 'how could a god like that allow such terrible things to happen?'
the anser is that the only way people learn is by experience. they learn by having happen what they think will make them happy. nothing else will do it. So the criminals and the warlords and the violent are no less granted what they think up than are the harmless or the well meaning or the noble.

all these enterprises that are fouling the planet--they were not begun with that end intended. they were begun originally in the belief and notion that it would be a great thing. the internal combustion engine was a great invention. no one foresaw the greenhouse effect when it was first produced. only reaching the point of seeing what it brings and making the resultant decision to stop, will teach the lesson truly.

my point is resounding and will alter your entire life, if you absorb it in its true dimension. It is not 'may God's will be done', and a futile effort to fathom the Mind of God with your personal, limited one, but to realize that whatever is your will, is God's will. Whatever you want to have, to do, to try, for you, then that is his will and joy to bring you, show you, make for you. The whole of the world is acting this out as we speak, and always has been.

No child can fathom the mind of their father. it is the parent who helps the child, who brings it what the child cannot make, or reach, or get, or do--and is there to see that the child comprehends what happens as a result.
God's will is always done, because he makes your will, his will.
do not fear making the wrong choice. any choice is ok with him. He will not judge. Your will shall be his will. He take syour wil and makes it possible for you to enact it--and because he leaves it to you to try your idea and for you to judge the outcome, yourself, It is the only way you will learn and gain wisdom and knowledge about existence.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:42:10 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: 'the will of God'
Message:
Hi J,

Yeah, what you said, BUT...

I happen to be a student of the hemp plant and all its great uses besides the psychoactive kind. When Henry Ford designed the car, he wanted to make it from fiberboard composed of the strongest fibers on earth - namely, hemp - and he wanted to power them with oils from the earth - namely hemp oil. I have proof in photos and words from the Ford Museum. Carnegie (steel) and Rockefeller and Mellon (gas) basically informed the new kid on the block (Henry) that if he was going to make cars in America, they would be made of steel and pwoered by gasoline. ford and his pal Rudolph Deisel both said that if cars are so constructed and powered, they would destroy the planet. But he knew he was out- gunned so he went along with it.

There is evil in the world, greedy bastards who will rape their own mother (earth) for a dollar. Everything everybody does is not in accord with the Divine Will. People have free will and that is the name of the game. You want to go along with the program or do it your own way? That's been man's dilemma since forever. And to go with the program, we don't have the whole map in front of us and that really bothers parts of our minds that want to run the show, ego and so forth.

And there is good in the world too. And like every good story, the evil looks like it's winning until the very end of the movie, and that's what we all came to see, the good guys kick ass in the nick of time.

So mistakes and learning are one thing, but to consciously do harm to the earth and all life on it for profit is just plain evil.

It is the Father's good pleasure to give us the keys to the Kingdom, and whatsoever you shall ask for in the consciousness of the Name I shall give it to you. Just remember, Darth Vader and Obiwan Keobi (All-be-one-can-all-be) may be fictional characters, but they represent something very real, that you can use the power for good or for evil. Allying one's own will to the good is a way to stay on track, then ask for whatever you want in right action.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 09:39:39 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: 'the will of God'
Message:
a rehearsed answer that didnt understand me.
evil is a term of judgement. in eternity there is no evil. it is not seen that way.

have you read any of the set of books titled 'conversations with god' by neale donald walsch?
they are not what you'd think. i urge you to start with book one, and not go on to book two until you've absorbed the shock of the brainworkout in book one. and so on, with all five or six volumes. if you can do it, you will realize how much courage and honesty it takes to live your life in full awareness of god.
my post will make much more sense to you once you've absorbed them.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:28:43 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: What makes Walsch more valid than you or me?
Message:
You give away your authority to others and don't give your own ideas as much credit.

And if you are so forgiving and don't think there is evil, then what is your beef with Maharaji?

I know it's a process of light and darkness and it's all One. Like at a stadium game, to the fans it's one game, but to the participants its a duality situation at the field level.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:28:49 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: 'the will of God' is called evolution
Message:
Yes, Janet, there are no accidents or real mistakes. We're all doing and thinking just as we're supposed to be. I don't feel very separate or all that different from you so why should I feel separate from anything including god or the oneness of life?

My biggest obstacle with guruism is it's duality. If I am not separate from god why should I be separate from the Master and be stuck in the Master/servant duality? We're all in it together as equals. Fuck masters. Boring, undemocratic and infantilising.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 18:28:07 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Not wishing to restart the evolution debate, Pat..
Message:
.. but if you are going to refer to evolution as the 'will of God' - and therefore the work of an intelligent designer, you are effectively saying the HIV virus (just one example out of thousands of nasties) is a deliberate, intelligent design. Surely not?

- or if so, who would want anything to do with such a dysfunctional deity?

You can't have it both ways, that I can see. Any 'God' behind the evolutionary clockwork would have to be nasty at worst, indifferent at best. Surely more comfortable all round to leave him/her/it out of the picture and accept such misfortunes as the haphazard meanderings of Natural Selection. Certainly more intellectually satisfying, I think.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 00:56:05 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Shit happens, so there is no God?
Message:
That seems to be the emotional reasoning behind your atheism. There seems to be some questionable hidden assumptions in your 'reasoning', maybe something like this:

God is supposed to be nice, loving, and able to do anything (even the impossible?). There is this hidden idea here that 'impossible' has no meaning, a highly dubious idea.
Shit happens.
Since God could do anything, He could have prevented the shit from happening, He could have made a 'better' world instead of this one with all the goodies and none of the nasties.
He would have because He is nice and this shit should not happen; this shit isn't nice because it hurts and it kills.
There is no spiritual reason for suffering.
So God would not have permitted it, no matter what the cost. If eliminating pain also meant no pleasure, so be it. Of course, God could do that, right? He's 'omnipotent' (defined in a way that doesn't make sense).
So the nice loving God able to do the impossible does not exist.
Therefore there is no God of any sort???

Whether there is a God doesn't depend on whether anyone wants anything to do with God. Ironically, you do have something to do with (at least) the concept of God, my guess is that you think about it more than most people. If there is a God, you do have something to do with this God, you have no choice.

Without viruses, we wouldn't be here. Pain has survival value, it is necessary. Living organisms die, that's the way it is.

This world is not a heaven, but I think it's far better than nothing. All the nastiness might simply be an unavoidable price that has to be paid.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 19:51:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Not talking as a scientist but as an old acid-head
Message:
By god I mean life or Mother Nature and yes life is indifferent, amoral and not intelligent. But human beings are the current acmes of evolution and are now becoming capable of directing evolution.

I don't have a licence to practice science - only poetry. But neither am I a theist who believes in some mysterious creator. I am an agnostic content to enjoy beauty and leave the sweet mystery of life to the scientists to unravel.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:40:14 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: OK - that's cool - so why 'Will of God'?
Message:
nt ;)
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 01:59:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: So why 'Will of God'? Meant ''wiill of man.''
Message:
Janet was trying to get Sandy to see that he need not get his tits in a tangle about obeying the ''will of god'' and I understood what she was trying to tell him - trust yourself.

To me basically our thoughts are the only signs of intelligence in this universe so why would they not be fine to follow without bothering about whether a socalled god approves or not.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 19:41:31 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Intelligence.
Message:
Hi Pat,

Isn't 'intelligence' nothing more than the ability to do IQ tests?

Anth who used to be a teacher.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 21:04:59 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Absoultely not, Anth....
Message:
IQ has nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence.

Nige the IQ of zero (because he could never be damned well arsed to fart about with those anoraky, get-a-life puzzles with no diagnostic merit whatsoever...)

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 20:07:01 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Intelligence is what my spies tell me
Message:
So Glen was not really fired or demoted at all but promoted to counter-intelligence oops I mean international PR spin control.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 02:03:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: PS It was not easy talking to two people who
Message:
believe in god but, since most people do, I have to make myself understood to them and just try to use the word without cringing too much.
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 00:23:36 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: About atheism
Message:
Anth said:
Have you ever considered becoming an atheist? I've been considering it for a while.
One reason is I'm getting fed up of being an actor in a play who contantly interupts his lines and starts yacking about the author. I think I'd do a better job if I really got into my part, and forget about who wrote the script.

Moldy replies:
Yep I've finally arrived at something pretty damn near atheism... after an interminable amount of post-cult time trying to renegotiate my pact with whoever the real lord of the universe was... I finally came to the conclusion that by far the most likely conclusion was that I was having an imaginary conversation with an imaginary friend.
I always thought atheists must be depressed people... but in fact the opposite seems to be true... for me and my nearest and dearest anyway.
And the best thing is, as Anth put it, I can, and am, finally get into the part... I no longer have to be a f**king leaf blown on the wind or an equally f**king yachtsman who can only adjust the sails...
OK so the nature of 'the world' is that sometimes things go right and sometimes they don't but we can still be in sole charge of ourselves and write our very own scripts.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 22:30:34 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Keep on kicking the tyres .Best Wishes (nt)
Message:
k
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:44:25 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: creativejani@aol.com
To: Sandy
Subject: On letting the heart speak
Message:
That's very true Sandy, it's the insensitivity of all the people who are 'close' to M or seriously committed to serving him (like the security guy who wouldn't let a mother and her 3 month baby into a hall out of the pouring rain because 'children aren't allowed') My heart told me to steer clear of the inner circle, they were and are scary, 'only following orders' (where have we heard that before?) and not allowing compassion or humour into the frame - so those are M's orders! It's difficult to connect that to M. I got such a great experience from meditation and darshan (Yes, I did, many years ago!)

It seems there's a great difference between the beautiful 'inner experience' and experience you have when you have to satisfy the demands of M ('surrender' to him) - and I's thankful I DID follow my own heart and listen to the warning bells that went off whenever I got too close to the 'true devotees.

Last program I went to (Paris I think) I noticed M always criticises the people trying to serve him - I thought it was a bit cruel to demean their efforts - it's a cheap shot, he knows all the other premies love it. Good policy - make people want to serve you and then tell them nothing they do is good enough. Classic abusive relationship, which makes it very difficult to leave because you lose your self-esteem. But he's meant to be a teacher, isn't he? So how come he hasn't managed to teach them how to behave with a bit of humanity? Surely if he was really loving and compassionate his closest followers would be too? He seems to turn them into Nazis. The closest followers are the ones who reflect his real personality. It's just so painful to have to see someone you believed in change into a totally different person, we don't want to admit it to ourselves.

Anyway, what's the point of a teacher you can never get to talk to?

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:44:48 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: On letting the heart speak
Message:
Hey creativejani,

And what good is listening to one's heart if we are supposed to edit out anything that smacks of questioning Maharaji? For Christ's sake, and I mean that literally as well as figuratively, if our heart gives us indication that something is wrong at HQ, then how in God's Holy Name are we supposed to ignore it???? I would rather serve in Heaven than reign in Hell.

Love from your brother,
Sandy

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:41:03 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Sandy
Subject: Bit of a drama queen there, Sandy...
Message:
But nice post - well said in that you have finally torpedoed the 'mind = bad / heart = good' myth. As they say, pain is the best educator.

Nige the old leftie with the painful left leg.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 03:21:28 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Notice that the torpedo is not targeting the big
Message:
issue,

'DO NOT EVER QUESTION THE PURITY OF THE MASTER'

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:52:34 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Drama...queen??
Message:
Hi Nigel,

After all these years of banging heads, I start to open up and you have to bring up sexuality issues too?? Hahahaha

Nigel, this has been a long and winding road and it is not totally travelled yet by a long shot. All I know is I personally feel better and truer to my Self when I say what I have said throughout this thread. I am not trying to be a rebel or a premie or an ex-premie...I am just trying to be true to how I really feel, and let the chips fall where they may. I lay my life before the mercy of the Almighty God of Love and say what is in my heart. If that is a crime, then convict me.

So how about those New York Yankees, think they will win the Series this year? (Drama queens don't talk baseball!)

Can you see the stuff between the lines on your monitor...and I don't mean the dust.

Love from your brother,
Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 18:11:14 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Just a friendly dig, mate...
Message:
..nothing nasty. It's just you were somewhat venting in public (all those melodramatic capitals) much as you have chosen to use a public forum as a confessional throughout your questioning process. Your choice, and I've no problem with that - it can be somewhat wearying ay times, intriguing at others. If you make your business everyone's business you gotta expect people to join in however they feel like joining in - just as you have expressed how you feel here in no uncertain terms. (And my post was basically supportive, if case you failed to read between the lines of your monitor...)

My point chiefly about 'heart' (good) vs 'mind' (bad) - a simplistic distinction I hate for an organism such as homo sapiens with its complex interaction of drives, sensations and cognitions all embodied within a unitary nervous system.

But anyone using the 'heart' metaphor to represent all things glowing, lovey and spiritual should equally apply the term to anger, resentment, emotional rages etc. It is all emotion, and emotional expression is generally healthy - especially in comparison to the stifling, stunted version of 'heart' presented by M as the entity which 'thirsts for Knowledge' (whatever that means) and no more.

So vent away, Sandy, and take no more notice of me than I deserve...

Cheers,
Nige the shameless and happy rationalist who donated his soul to medical research.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:43:40 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I can dig it (nt)
Message:
fhjy
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:20:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Drama queens don't talk baseball!
Message:
You have got to be kidding. Baseball fanatics are all closet drama queens.

Don't let the atheistic scientific materialists like Nige and Moldy rip you up, Sandy. I'll back you up all the way if you stick with saying god is love as long as you don't expect me to go along with any UFO stuff. Okay?

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:45:16 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You can back me up but not too close..haha (nt)
Message:
xdfghdgh
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 09:51:56 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You can back me up but not too close..haha (nt)
Message:
whatsa matta sandy? afraid of love? what about love thy neighbor? if god is love, are you afraid of god? afraid of what might happen if something that real got next to you? whats the worst that could happen? you might feel emotions you keep locked up? its just skin, after all. whats so scary about skin? whas so scary about feeling something for your brother? or from your brother?
i told you it took courage to face god. if god is love, then it takes courage to face love, too. it appears you're terrified of brotherly love. why?
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:52:09 (GMT)
From: Amazed
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You
Message:
Oh Janet, you are a wonderful person. Such kind words. I want to say something and I am 'afraid' I may confuse Jim's and the atheists around so I'll hold saying who I'm. It doesan't matter really. What is true is true.

I believe in something today: ME and that loving is the best of all emotions. Ok, I say it. Some of us are 'divine' entities because we have transcend all barriers and have reached a higher understanding,so in that love we feel compelled to help others love themselves as we do, or to learn how to love period. We cannot love anything, anybody without knowing how to love ourselves first. The law of the universe, making what is suposse to be together, together. The lower self must merge, integrate with the higher one. There is a higher capacity humans can develop and false beliefs are like a Dead End street. We were free and by lardishi's grace we faced it hard.

LOL,:)I bet you are shinning in that love. I am not afraid of it no more. I wish I could forgive chachashit, but maybe that emotion is what is going to make me do what I have to do to help bring his empire down and I should be happy I have it.

;)

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:01:46 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Hey Janet, feeling OK?
Message:
I was joshing with Pat who I believe said he was gay. I was making a funny. Geez, Louise, lighten up.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:15:07 (GMT)
From: Bai Gosh Ji
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: By golly Janet, are you feeling OK?
Message:
You are giving Sandy some extra special hard treatment, Shri Doctor Ji! Mahatma Sandy Ji is very fine fellow and just does not like Ayurvedic prostate massage. Poor old Sandy Ji - attacked by you and bob for no reason at all.

PatC - and you did misunderstand what he has been saying in this thread.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:55:22 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bai Gosh Ji
Subject: Sandy that was a great thread that you started
Message:
Probably had something to do with the title.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:38:14 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hey Pat
Message:
Yeah, good way to start something rolling, letting the heart speak.

I feel like I'm about ready to have a fork stuck in me - and I don't mean a pitchfork - I'm getting pretty done, not with a bang or a whimper, but with a simple peaceful feeling of clarity, especially after seeing the two posts at the top, one from the 'authorized book of who He is' and the other from the recent FAQ's on his website.

yuggity yuggity yuggity (you know, that noise when a cartoon character gets caught in a revolving door or something...)

Sandy coming to his senses and his center

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:51:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Hey Sandy, glad to here you sounding strong
Message:
As Rev Rawat said in Portland in March, if you don't have that affection for him then you will not see him as the Master.

It took a long time for my affection for him to dry up and I still have little pangs of fondness for him which is fine. I don't want to hate anyone.

But not to have his master's leash around my neck is a great feeling. Everyday I wake up feeling freer and happier and I wish that for you too.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:58:07 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Using the Mind
Message:
Premies and Maharaji say that the experience of Knowledge cannot be understood by the mind. OK, I can see where that comes from, it's really difficult to get your mind around some of the cosmic-feeling experiences that we've had.

But, when we have these experiences, do we really not use our minds?

I've had intense meditation experiences. I still don't know what they mean, but I can understand why people have got worked up over them in the past. As a premie, however, I did use my mind, and told myself that the experience I had proved that Maharaji was someone special for teaching me how to meditate, and that the experiences were in fact what Maharaji said they were.

So I used my mind to decide that Maharaji was worthy of trust and faith. I had no proof or other evidence that this decision was sound. I also then decided, using my mind, that the meditation experience was an experience of God, only because Maharaji said so. Again, no proof.

So, it was using my mind, but not critical thinking, that kept me in the cult.

So, premies, tell me you don't use your minds to understand Knowledge.

John.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:14:11 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Excellent, excellent point, John
Message:
Experiences that are beyond the mind don't tell us that 'so-and-so is god,' or that this and that happened, etc.

To say what happened, to define it, to conceptualize about it is -- is using the mind. In fact, the idea that M has any connection at all with our experiences is a concept.

Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition has this definition of concept:

'1. something conceived in the mind : thought, notion
2. an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances see idea'

Particular instances of experiences in meditation, perhaps. Yes, Rawat is a danerous, oxy, moron. Good one, John. To say that ideas are experiences is fuzzy, fuzzy logic. Knowledge and the Master is a spiritual hairball.

--f

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:17:34 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: no oxy, business man to the end
Message:
Hi Francesca,

Remember Bob Mishler's radio interview. He knew what he was doing to our minds and the sick thing is he found that funny. He enjoyed playing with our minds.

John, great point as F said!

love to you both,

SB

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 19:53:15 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Oxy
Message:
As in 'built like an ox.'

Love to you too, f

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:28:53 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Belated response to la-ex
Message:
I was away for a couple days and the thread in which we were typing became inactive. So, I'm quoting here your last post:

'Christian- thanks for taking the time to answer.
I felt that most of your answers were honest and heart felt.
However,one thing I will take exception with:

'As far as my believing people who said I would save the world by going to DECA.(and your suggestion that maybe I should have been more discerning in who I listened to you.)

'Let's get real here.

'It was Maharaji who was saying that.
You know that.

'How many times did he say that ONLY Guru Maharaji would save the world?
If HE said to do something, you did it.(Agya)
(Will you come when he calls? Will you even know when he's calling?)

'It was HIM who said those things.
We all know that no instructor would make up quotes and attribute them to maharaji.
If they did, they would be gone instantly.

'This is the thing that makes so many people angry with maharaji.
He continually denies doing or saying these things.They are at first denied,but then if you can prove them, they are then attributed to some premie or indian mahatma or ev personnel.

'maharaji never takes responsibility for his errors, his false prophecies, weird advice, or the negative and harmful impact he has had on people's lives.

'When people bring up these very real issues, he marginalises them, by saying they are weird, a tiny minority,unhappy people, people who have an axe to grind etc.

'He needs to do better than that.
However, he is a very insecure and frightened man, once he steps down off the throne/stage, and I would be shocked if he ever gets real and and accountable.

'(not a lecture against you, but about 'you know who').'

-------Response:----------------------------------

Hi la, and thanks for your kindness toward me.

I was not around during the DECA days, so I am not certain I 'know' what you say I 'know' in regard to your particular experience in regard to that. But of course I can understand that the DECA matter was treated as if this would save the world, etc., and Maharaji was quoted, etc. I don't question you on that and believe that your words too are honest and heartfelt.

All I can say though, still, is an extension of what I already said, which is that when people lay trips on me -- no matter how lofty -- I have a problem with that, and it makes me unhappy and uncomfortable. And I leave. Forget saving the world -- I do not have any such illusion that I am such a lofty soul. Shoot, I have never done hardly anything to 'save' a homeless person from cold or hunger unless it was a personal friend of mine. I'm not proud of that; just saying that for better or for worse I only do what I feel good about -- even when sometimes it has meant turning my back on a representative, if you will, of someone in the world needing a handout, and badly.

I also do not know what Maharaji was saying during those DECA years at programs. I was not there. However I know that in the past ten years he is not talking about saving the world, and in fact one gets the very distinct impression from his talks that that is *not* the goal of his mission. Knowledge for people who want it. That's the message I have been hearing for a very long time.

Now, if we want to go into ancient history we could quote the Peace Bomb program where he spoke that maybe the bombs could turn into flowers. And I could see how anyone with an ounce of skepticism could have problems with that. For me, I just feel a sense of wondering and leave it at that.

Yes, I think perhaps Maharaji does worry about what people think of him to the point of hiding every aspect of himself and his life that he fears will be targeted for hatred and criticism. That doesn't make him a monster; it makes him human. But yes, I do agree with you that it would be in everyone's best interest if he could overcome such fears and insecurities and be more boldly himself -- and let the chips fall where they may.

He may never choose to do that, though, but still has something of great value to offer me. And I accept it and am very grateful for it.

Cheers

C.S.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 09:44:50 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Stereotypical Cult Think ??
Message:
Isn't the following quote from Christian exactly the way we were all programmed to THIMK by the maharaji-read -Never leave room for doubt in your mind-The Prime Directive

'Now, if we want to go into ancient history we could quote the Peace Bomb program where he spoke that maybe the bombs could turn into flowers. And I could see how anyone with an ounce of skepticism could have problems with that. For me, I just feel a sense of wondering and leave it at that.'

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 17:56:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: A question.
Message:
Hi Chrissie,

I hope you don't mind me butting in with a question here.

Do you think that the sincere believers following the Rev. Moon, the 'flying yogis' practising TM, the folk in pink chanting 'Hare Krishna' all day, are putting their lives into something of great value?

Or are they barking up the wrong tree so to speak- into unhealthy, introverted religious cults, each with their own unique view of life and the answer to everything?

Just wondering.

Anth stumbling around in the Gu.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 05:56:43 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: maharaji hiding every aspect of himself and...
Message:
his life,that he fears will be targets for hatred and criticism.

OK, I agree, there are some people who just want to hate maharaji and criticize him.
(Although a good question might be 'Why do they hate maharaji?'...is it unfounded anger that they project on him, or do they have real points to consider that he refuses to answer?)

However, putting those people aside, most people that I know would certainly want to know a good bit about maharaji's personal life, his values, his beliefs,moral code(if he has one), his outlook on life etc., if they were to ever consider following him as a student.
For instance, does he lie?
Does he take resposibility for his actions?
Does he manipulate people?
Can I believe what he says?
Can I trust him?

At some point in the aspirant conditioning process (I know the premies will say it is a 'heart-opening, feeling the thirst' process, but I have simply seen too much to not call it conditioning. I was an aspirant coordinator for 4 years in one community, and 2 years in another. A lot more goes on there besides just 'feeling the thirst' and 'getting in touch with the heart', as the new person realizes that this commitment is no ordinary commitment.)
At some point m will tell them in no uncertain terms that he is the master, they are the student, the commitment should be forever,and to not doubt or judge the master.

This is big stuff.
Only a blind fool would accept this without also applying some critical thinking and reasoning to the process as well.

For instance, who is this man I will be following?
I will probably watch videos of him and only him once or twice a week.
I will probably go to programs to see him.
Yet I will never question the master or process.(because he told me not to).
There is no opportunity to question him. Why?
Shouldn't I know a WHOLE LOT about this guy before I give a HUGE aspect of my life to him?

When any aspirant reads the first hand accounts on EPO, as well as the obvious hypocrisies in maharaji's ever-changing philosophy,his view of himself, and his prescription for practicing and realizing knowledge (BTW, just what is 'realizing knowledge?...the only guy I knew who ever said he had 'full realization of knowledge' was Bob Mischler, and look what happened to him), they will quickly surmise that something is quite wrong with this guy and the group around him.

They should ask a lot of questions about this guy..a lot.
And when they do,they will see that there are no good answers, just lame excuses.
Premies do not see certain things about m, because they simply cannot afford to.
Too confronting.
Rocks the boat too much.(and this is the boat that is supposed to be the only one that DOESN'T rock...and this may be their ONLY boat)
Nope, we don't have to go down that road.
Why would we want to? That's the mind, isn't it?

Beatles:
'Living is easy with eyes closed..'

William James:
'Beware the religion that cannot stand the light of psychology'

Think about it.(if m will allow you)

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 05:54:51 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: great la-ex, plus these questions
Message:
A student of life, when selecting a teacher, much less a 'master', should ask this very important question:
Does this teacher have my best interests in mind and heart?
Or to put it more specifically:
Does he or she care about my soul?

I personally don't believe M can meet this benchmark.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 06:58:16 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Richard
Subject: great la-ex, plus these questions
Message:
Very powerful post, Richard. Thanks.

Steve

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 02:52:07 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I disagree where you agree.
Message:
la-ex, you said,

'OK, I agree, there are some people who just want to hate maharaji and criticize him.'

Kindly name one.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 08:32:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Another brilliant essay, ex-lax
Message:
You said: ''....just what is realizing knowledge?...''

Answer: ''Realizing Knowledge means to see that God is great but Guru is greater than God because he reveals God.''

It also means merging with Mahahaharaji into the oneness. It means marrying him soul to soul, heart to heart. No wonder premies are worried, paranoid, secretive and defensive.

Who the hell wants to be in a relationship like that with a man who cannot come clean about the past and admit that he has behaved very badly and taken advantage of too many people?

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:33:40 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: I can't decide whether you're crackers ....
Message:
...or taking the piss .

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt .

You're taking the piss , whoever you are , & are very good at it too.
Congrats.

ps : I always thought Christian was a boy's name.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 03:12:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: I can't decide whether she's crackers ....or Jim
Message:
back from Costa Rica taking the mickey.

I especially liked the bit: ''That's my story and I'm sticking with it.'' Emotikons and all.

I could almost hear Jim cracking up. How long will he keep it up? Until Catweasel joins in the fun?

Sorry, Christian if you're real. You're a hoot and a holler all right, lass.

You know, I once also saw a UFO which to this day I cannot explain but the cynic in me says it was probably some secret military thingy. Never been lucky enough to see little green men yet.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:52:27 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: pardon me for jumping the queue ...
Message:
I certainly can relate to what you say here:

'when people lay trips on me -- no matter how lofty -- I have a problem with that, and it makes me unhappy and uncomfortable. And I leave. Forget saving the world -- I do not have any such illusion that I am such a lofty soul.'

... and thanks for being upfront with that.


What I don't yet understand is how you perceive Maharaji as 'pure' (I think that's how you described him in a thread below), when he's laid trips on people like these:

quote:


November 8, 1978 in Kissimmee, Florida:

'Like I was saying yesterday, you say:
'If You could find any place, any point, anywhere, anything, if You could just find a
little place for me, then just please stick
me in somewhere, because I want to be on Your boat, and I want to be with You so
desperately. I am already indebted to
You. Don't expect anything from me, I will do whatever I can by Your Grace, but
don't expect -- I'm already too much
indebted to You.'

'How can I ever repay You, what can I ever do? And I can't pay You even if I have
the whole wealth of this entire world:
When I can't even pay You with that, Guru Maharaj Ji, then what have I got, what is
there that I can give to You?'

'And You give me so much. You give me that affection. You give me that Love and I
keep taking it. I never even think
about, oh Guru Maharaj Ji, what can I give You? I mean, if there are people that
can be called 'the worst' then here I am, it's
me. If there is somebody who is the worst of the bunch, here it is, it's me, and the
more You see that it's me then please help
me more, please.'

'And, even what right do we have to plead to Guru Maharaj Ji? Who are we, you
know, who are we that we can even plead
to Guru Maharaj Ji and say please, or talk to Guru Maharaj Ji, or look at Guru
Maharaj Ji? But we do it.'

.
.
.
And, if you can stomach it, here's a few more from the 'master's' mouth (it was his mouth
he was speaking out of, wasn't it? ...)

quote:
.
.
.
'TODAY human beings are not human beings. In fact, they are lower than animals,
because animals at least have love for
and faith in their master, but human beings have respect for nothing.'

.
.
.

YOUR complete happiness is based upon these small things, Oh, my car! Oh, my wife!
Oh, my two kids ! Oh, my little
house ! Oh, my business ! Oh, my money ! Oh, my bank account ! It's like taking a jack in
two pieces, and taking one piece
on top of each and lifting up a seven or eight ton truck; then going right under the tire to fix
it. If that's where you are
completely passing your happiness, then you haven't got too many chances to stay happy.
(December 2, 1971)

.
.
.
You are a premie. Right?
When you received this Knowledge, you dedicated your life to me. Right? If you are so
fake and phony as to refuse
your duty, as to regret your duty, then I don't think you are even a premie.
(M speaking to community coordinators, November 11, 1975 in Orlando, Florida)

.
.
.

'When you give up all your hopes, when everything is dead, when everything is gone, when
everything is over, when it's all
finished, it's all gone, it's all dead, and when that true surrender for even a moment strikes
you, Guru Maharaj Ji comes and
picks you up, and takes you to His oasis. He takes you to His place where you always
wanted to be. And you know, I mean
that's so wonderful, it's so incredible. Do we really deserve that, to even be able to go
back to the oasis?

'I mean, who are we to be able to deserve to go back to the oasis? What have we done in
this life that might be worth it?
Nothing. It's just tumbling boo-boos one after another, one after another; that's all we've
done in this life. But that's not the
way how we'll be able to really get out of here. Out of this mind. Only by Guru Maharaj
Ji's Grace. Only by Guru Maharaj
Ji's Love. Only by Guru Maharaj Ji's affection.'

'So that mind, that factor that's always against us, can get us; it has the potential of getting
us. What I'm trying to say, is that
I'm not trying to kid you when I say that the mind can zap you, the mind can get
you. It can get you. And we have to be
aware of that, and do something, and the only thing we can do to avoid that, is to
surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji.'

.
.
.
Well, Mr Star (or are you a Mrs or a Ms?, not that it matters that much) - just WHO, if not the Maha, is guilty of 'laying trips on people'?

Maybe you're unfamiliar with the evidence, and that's why you're still attached to him?

No hard feelings, you understand, but I think you should know where he's coming from.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:06:59 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: pardon me for jumping the queue ...
Message:
Sorry, cq, but I just don't have a problem with those quotes.

There is a purity which Maharaji revealed to me when I connected with him, and when I feel and experience every time I feel that connection. It is *so* pure and *so* beautiful that nothing in those quotes above are outlandish to me.

I am a female. What are you?

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:41:32 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: 'Maharaji' is nothing but an icon
Message:
Dear Ms. Star:

I hate to burst your bubble, (but here goes anyway):

You say: There is a purity which Maharaji revealed to me when I connected with him.

I will grant you the benefit of the doubt and acknowledge that you enjoy a sense of purity. Don't we all, at times? The sky is blue, and it makes me cry, just because it's blue. The smile of a baby, the kindness of a stranger, etc. etc. Likewise, our interior space can be pure, and lovely, all neuroses subsided in favor of the simplicity of the human heart.

But what I will not grant you, in any degree, in any way, is that Maharaji revealed it to you (or me), or that you enjoy a connection to him.

Maharaji is an icon, a 'representative of a sacred personage, usually painted on wood or ivory.' In this case, it is a flesh and blood icon, but it is indeed an icon, nothing more and nothing less. Maharaji deserves your adoration as much as a statue of the Virgin Mary or Shiva or the many other images that people paint for themselves.

You give Mr. Rawat far too much credit, and therefore you rely on a source that is external, imperfect, fallable, and finite, and most of all impossible to connect to. But the real source is not external, imperfect, fallable and finite, and most of all it is possible to connect to.

Take off your rose colored glasses just for a moment. Just long enough to re-read your statement above. What did Maharaji reveal to you, really? What connection do you have with him? Are you thinking realistically here, or magically?

Well, if I have successfully burst your bubble, then stand up, dust yourself off, and proceed on down the road, dearie. But if your bubble remains intact, then climb aboard and float off into the sunset.

Whatever.

Bye now.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:05:45 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Maharaji is for me a special connection
Message:
Sorry, Way, but I am still bubbly. You have your experience; I have mine.
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:17:43 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Way
Subject: ..badge, emblem, lucky mascot, logo. Great Post!
Message:
- but I'd disagree about there being a 'real source' - internal or anywhere else, but now's not the time to quibble. Well said, Way.

Listen up there, Christian, (as we say in the 'pool), this here Way's got his or her head screwed down approximately right. Know worra mean, like?

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:33:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: I had a 'pure' experience too, Ms Star ...
Message:
... it's true, my experience of meditation was cleansing, centring, and the nearest thing to purity I had come across in a long time.

(btw, the name's Chris, short for Christopher).

The point is this - meditation is beneficial for, if not the majority, at least a sizeable minority of those who are introduced to it. No matter WHO introduces them to it. Could be Maharaji, could be the Maharishi, could be Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, could be Bhaktivedanta, could be Sai Baba, could be Muktananda, could be Jesus, could be Mohammed, could be Buddha ... you get the drift?

But just because the experience you were shown how to connect with worked for you, why should that imply that the messenger who showed you those techniques was 'pure'?

The fact that you see nothing outlandish in those quotes from M indicates to me that some impurity has definately crept into your ability to judge the difference between purity and outright exploitation.

Maharaji inherited some (and only some) of the techniques of the meditations collectively known as 'Knowledge' from his father, Shri Hans. His older brother, SatPal (formerly known as BalBhagwanji) also inherited the same techniques.

Purity is the reason his older brother denounces him now.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:24:01 (GMT)
From: In a Nutshell
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The techniques work
Message:
Just because the techniques work and they do very nicely thank you very much doesn't mean that the person who gave us them old techniques is perfect. It seems he certainly isn't. I always thought my father was more perfect and i'm pretty sure his kids feel the same way about him.

We'll see from those videos his kids have made and also the one made by his wife. Will they still say he's perfect. If they do they it will be interesting.

In a nutshell

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:56:28 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Nutty
Subject: I must be perfect!
Message:
I revealed the techniques to several people!!

They worked!

So I am perfect!

The fried chicken was good today, later I am going to sin some more!

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:02:27 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I had a 'pure' experience too, Ms Star ...
Message:
Hello, Mr. Chris,

His older brother was of a kind of logic that never made any sense to me and I never paid attention to him then and certainly not now.

Anyhow, I have never experienced that kind of purity without Maharaji, except to some extent from my experiences with Jesus.

I'll take your word that you didn't experience anything you could sense as more special than what you experienced elsewhere; for myself, I have, many times, experienced something of purity and beauty like none else. Though I have had very wonderful experiences outside the realm of Maharaji and Knowledge, none of them could touch the purity and marvelousness of experiences in direct relation to my own connection with Maharaji.

So, for me, it's a good thing. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. =) =) =)

Ms. Star

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:34:18 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: I had a 'pure' experience too, Ms Star ...
Message:
but i have come to the point where no matter how powerful those experiences were or could be again, they don't make right or allow me to condone and leave unmolested all of the wrongs that maharaji has done in the 28 years that I have known him. My moral sense is outraged. My human compassion is incensed. My conscience is filled with abhorrence. None of what he showed me excuses what he does with the naked trust that innocent people give him. It is not a crime to trust and believe and give someone a chance. That is inbuilt in our natures. without trust, life becomes impossible.
It IS a crime to mislead people, to exploit their innate trust and belief. It IS a crime to promise something and not deliver. It IS a crime to claim to be something you are not, and still another crime to lie and cover up and deny that you promised it at any point.
The crimes are all committed by him, not we who listened and believed and trusted and gave and gave and gave--our time, our work, our health, sacrificed our friends, families, schooling, careers, money, work, talent, and for some, our morality, ethics, and fairness.
If you have a relationship with Jesus, ask him if he approves of what maharaji does.
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:04:27 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Message from EV to online newsletter subscribers
Message:
'We apologize both for the appearance of a banner advertisement in issue 98 of the newsletter, and for the delay in sending issues 99 and 100. These problems were caused by change in policy of the company providing the mailing list service.

'We do not endorse any advertisements.

'Thank you for your patience and feedback.
We hope you continue to enjoy the inspiration contained in these newsletters.


The Elan eNewsletter team.'

Note: When that banner came in my e-mail with the daily quote of Maharaji I assumed it was just such an error. And of course many people on this website assumed quite the opposite. Another example of: we all see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear.

Cheers

C.S.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 18:05:24 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: I agree with you Christian.
Message:
You said, '...we all see what we want to see, hear what we want to hear.'

You put it very clearly. I completely agree with you.

Anth the myopic squinter

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:19:50 (GMT)
From: Santa
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: What do you want for Christmas?
Message:
Correct Chris. Not ALL seems what it is sometimes. Follow your guts/instinct. What is it telling you? You are a cult memeber darling, simple. How do we ex-premies know? because we know what is like to be out. You are still speculating with your limited trained mind who is right. What CHRIS think?

Maharaji doesn't empower people but keeps'em week and needy of him. Grace my ass. I have my own grace!! And feel it too. And enjoy it! Being alive is an incredible rich, rich, undescribable experience, only when we are truly free of misconceptions. You are still full of them.

I wish you more light to disipate the darkness chachashi bestow upon you. Love is real and universal.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:02:21 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Santa
Subject: I have been out
Message:
I have been out, Santa. I left Maharaji and practice of Knowledge for a full 6-year span or so, in which time I lost touch with every single premie I knew (hundreds), and went on to live my life almost as if Maharaji and Knowledge had never happened to me.

And what happened. Good things and bad things, ups and downs. The downs were much worse than anything I ever experienced while practicing Knowledge, and the highs were not as high either. But I really didn't think about that during most of those years and in fact during most of those years Maharaji very, very rarely even crossed my mind at all, though I had lived in the DLM ashram for 3 years.

But I came back to Maharaji and to practicing Knowledge because I found that something was missing in my life without it practicing Knowledge. I had completely forgotten the experience that could be had by listening to Maharaji and also seeing him in person, but once I finally saw him again after a juncture of 8 years, it felt really great. In fact, I felt so grateful to re-discover Maharaji that for years every time I saw him I couldn't stop weeping out of gratitude and relief. He is my lifeboat on an utterly deep level.

Yes, life goes on outside of practicing Knowledge, and for me it did so quite easily. People don't have to have Knowledge and Maharaji in their lives to experience very exciting lives (or very mundane lives if that's what they are into).

I came back -- and I'm very glad I did. By the way, during those six years I too thought about writing 'exposes' of Maharaji, and felt those same exact fears many people feel that post on this website, worrying that his followers might respond to him as Jim Jones' followers did. But be honest. Look at Jim Jones and what he was teaching those people. He had even had dress rehearsal for the suicidal Kool-aid trip. Maharaji couldn't be more opposite.

Let me give an analogy: Have any of you have watched some of those movies based on true stories? Man and woman marry, everything seems hunky dory, maybe they have a kid too, and then the man or woman turns out to be a sociopathic homicidal maniac bent on murdering husband, wife and/or child. Shall we all now conclude from this that (a) never marry a man because he could turn out to be a homicidal maniac, (b) never marry a woman because she could turn out to be a homicidal maniac or (c) never trust anyone because s/he could be a sociopath?

Maharaji is no Jim Jones and the similarities do not exist except that people trusted JJ and people trust Maharaji. End of similarities. End of need to compare the two.

Maharaji offers me something that I haven't found elsewhere except with Jesus -- plus more.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:50:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: you may not be aware of it, but we have here
Message:
a longtime member of the forum, Marianne DB, who is an attorney who represents prisoners on death row facing the final penalty for their acts. Marianne personally was involved in the legal aftermath of the People's Temple in Jonestown, and she knows the parallels between Jim Jones and maharaji, between the People's Temple and Elan Vital, chillingly, up close and personal as a result of being deeply involved in both phenomena, in a way that neither you, nor any of us ever could. She is uniquely qualified to speak on the subject, and she reports that maharaji is moving closer and closer to Jim Jones' footsteps every day.
She had a personal friend who went off and joined Jim Jones as a follower, around the same time that she found maharaji and joined DLM, and her girlfriend died drinking the koolaid and cyanide when the final crisis went down in guyana.
so you speak in glowing ignorance and denial, intentionally hiding from yourself the truth, because you want to. Marianne has no such wish or motive to. I will take her word on it anyday, over yours. You would benefit far more if you listened to her reports, over those you are believing and clinging to now.
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 06:05:28 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Christian;Man and woman marry....
Message:
Man (m)consistently lies to woman (Premie).

Woman(premie) confronts man (m) about lying.

Man(m) won't respond.

Man (m) tells woman (premie)to never doubt the man (m) or his purity.

Now Christian, what is a woman (premie) to do?

Stay, leave, go to counselor, stay in denial, not doubt....?

What would you do?

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:51:58 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: I have been out
Message:
Fear ripping through your guts, it just has to be up there as one of the worst experiences possible. Anyone who releases you from that will get your tears of gratitude at your heartfelt sense of relief. Shame on that person who takes the opportunity of your trust and attention to inculcate more fear laden beliefs.

Religion, bad for the soul, imo.

Do you really really want to pin your hopes on, actually on what: the stage show, Maharaji, or the real person, Mr Rawat?

Best Regards, Lesley

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:35:41 (GMT)
From: One who knows
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Don't pin your hopes
Message:
Dear Star,

I agree with you that knowledge if you practice it works a charm. Also when you have that connection and you go and see M it's amazing too. But don't pin your hopes on M the man. He's only human and he could definately let you down.

Trust in a human is as old as the hills. Gurus have been around for hundreds of years as we all know. Christians put their trust in Jesus ( I think he was a particularly trustworthy guy but I'm only speculating) when we trust ourselves it's definately easier to trust others but we need to be wary that we are all infallible and can let down and be let down. I'm really hoping M isn't greedy but it seems like he is often.

Enjoy practicing knowledge and be grateful that he is the one that gave you the techniques but don't go overbouard like so many premies.

Cheers,

One who knows.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:09:34 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Not a matter of pinning hopes
Message:
...but a matter of feeling the cup running over and tears of gratitude.

Sounds sappy, I know, but Maharaji is right when he says that there's nothing better than that feeling of gratitude. It's perhaps a (or the?) apex of human feeling -- gratitude. He gives me a reason and a way to experience it in such full measure that it cannot be contained.

No need to feel sorry for me. =) =) =)

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:10:19 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Your master
Message:
separates people making you believe you are special, people are suffering and need K, etc.

He goes against the laws of nature doing that. We are all memebers of the same world, under the same circumstances. Normal people, especially the ones who are not bonded to any religious are so much real and loving taht premies are. Premies say to love K and M and cannot love themselves. An example. A premie friend of mine doesn't have medical insurance according to him for lack of money but mangages to send EVERY month hundreads of dollars to Lard, one of the last times as much as $1,000. This premie is an full time alcoholic, suffers of panick attacks,mistreats his friends,son,employees but mostly, he mistreats himself. Haven't had a dental cleaning in a long time; cannot drive any more because of his acute anxiety; he is alone most of the time, issolating, LONGING. When I met him 13 years a go he wasn't like that. WHY?

Maharaji doesn't empower people but keep them needy and weak, for ever, because as Mishler disclosed, Lard needs us to survive, to support his life high style he has become acustome to, by the grace of his followers. Prepare yourself and get strong. Yor master is going to stop treating people like dogs. People deserve to be alone. Religiones can go to the shit, all of them. We need to come back to nature, fit in it, and a master cannot do taht. In one hand he shows you pretty pictures but then, most are afraid to go outside and see the REAL nature, smell it, feel it, not think about it.

Don't you get bored of the same shoit? It's worthless to become a fanatic cult member. Don't you see how much love is there around you? Or is it that as with others followers you cannot love anymore? What I thought was love that I felt as a premie was peanuts compared to what I feel today. How do you explain that?

Always repeating the words of the master. Find your own widsdom he said once. have you? No. You talk as a dependant entity who trully is like a fish thirsty in the water. Lard got all backwards and he is NOT a free person. Read Mishler's tell all radio interview, with your heart. Lard full your mind but the doubts come from your heart. Your heart knows, that 'divine' intelligence in each of us knows that masters are for dogs and slaves. He mastered you alright.

well, if you enjoy being THAT, who can stop you? Because I love you too is that I am taking time of my life to write to you. Wake up brother. He took us for a ride. he may have beauty in himself somewhere but you must find your own. Only that will empower you and make you brake free! TRY IT! It's so much easier to do it alone. Trust us ex-premies. We were where you are. JUMP!

I send you love and respect and hope you are not scared of chachashi threats: Is simply not true. My life is so, so much better today. I feel happy and grown up, wiser, FREE. I feel he had clipped my winds and now I can 'fly' again. God's speed?

MAHARAJI SUCKS!! RUN!

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:41:47 (GMT)
From: One who knows
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Gratitude spatitude
Message:
Lets get things in the right perspective here.

Be grateful for M giving you the techniques but be even more grateful for this life. He didn't give you this life. He made a difference and maybe a great improvement and possibly a big difference and improvement but he definately didn't give you this life.

He and GOD are not one and I'm not really sure that Jesus was either. But at least Jesus was a very humble and not at all greedy guy by all accounts.

One who is learning all the time.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:05:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: One who knows
Subject: You sound like you have you head screwed on right
Message:
I just been following your posts. Did you also post as ''In a Nutshell?''

What really has completely put me off the whole guru juju stuff is that 30 years ago we all sang to Rev Rawat, ''...from you I was born and to you now I go.''

Okay so it was old Hindu hooey and he has supposedly ''evolved'' but why all the fibs put out by him that he never said he was god? He did.

Like you, I still enjoy the gyanyoga (eventhough he taught the techniques backwards) but I'm finished with him. He's a greedy piggy and a liar.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:46:13 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: gratitude
Message:
Interesting topic, really, I left the lotus feet about a year ago, it was a pretty rough ride, and had been for a couple of years. I needed help and reached out for it, I was deeply touched, people who had no reason to, irreligious people, people who did not have the Knowledge of God, responded, I was privileged to see compassion in action by the ordinary man. My friends, pleased to see I had returned to the land of the living, kicked me around a bit for being such a pain in the ass, tended my bruises, earned my gratitude.

Yes, I have felt a lot of gratitude since leaving those twinkling tootsies, and the best part about it, is that it feels simple and healthy, it is mine, in my control, and it is free.

Perhaps that is the unkindest thing Mr Rawat perpetrates with his persona 'Maharaji': fear of untying the bond you have tied around his feet of clay, fear that in the so doing, you will lose touch with your heart. It is not true. Best regards, lesley

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 23:49:19 (GMT)
From: George
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: gratitude
Message:
Good one Lesley.

George

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 23:56:23 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Stage show - exactly...
Message:
Nicely put, Lesley.

What Christian has seen, what most premies have seen, what we all witnessed, happened on a stage - ie., 'Maharaji' is a performance. A prescientific pantomine (though now less camp than in the wobble-dance days) Likewise darshan is just an archaic hindu equivalent to the modern 'hypnosist's' fakery.

I wonder what is the first thing Mr Rawat does when he gets back to the dressing room and slips off the crown. (Who'll put money on 100-1 outsider: 'Meditate'?)

Cheers,
Nige

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:47:07 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: I have been out
Message:
You just dont leave M for six years , starting a new life
and then find out that you should go back to him
Tell me ,about the six years ,,,,,,

You left the lord of the universe , how did that feel ?

You where ONLY doing your own things , and not helping
M in his great work to bring knowledge to the world.

did you not feel like you was wasting your time , not
being a part of his play.?

I dont think that you really can leave M, like that...
The belive system is inside , and it takes so much
time and help from others to leave it .

So i am saying that you came back to M
thanks to the programming,,
It is so deep inside us .

Please think about it

regards Ulf

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:18:46 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: I have been out
Message:
No, dear, I actually did leave that easily. First, I moved out of the ashram. Next, I quit listening, practicing and contributing. Next, I felt like I wasn't sure there was anything really there for me. Next, I decided to throw out all the concepts and go on with my life, figuring that if there was any real understanding it would come back to me somehow.

It was very easy for me to leave, and no one tried to get me to stay. I think they were worried about a recent saying Maharaji had said at the time that if someone was drowning you shouldn't try to pull them out unless you had a very strong anchor because otherwise they would pull you in and both would drown. At the time, I was very kind of disappointed that people just let me go without argument. A part of me would have liked to feel more 'wanted.'

Anyhow, I realized later that was for the best, because I don't want to be into Knowledge (or not into Knowledge) because of peer pressure anyway. It's a very personal choice and decision.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 20:18:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: 'Jesus -- plus more' you say?
Message:
You know, Christian, it's very interesting to hear you say that 'Maharaji is no Jim Jones'.

Just a few days after the Jonestown massacre occurred, I happened to be in the audience at the morning discourse of one Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, in Poona, India.

You know what he said? He said 'Jonestown could never happen here', and as a sannyasin (formerly premie), I wanted to believe him.

Fortunately I managed to have enough doubts to resist following him when the cult moved from Poona to Oregon.

In Oregon, Rajneesh's followers armed themselves to the hilt, established their own police force, poisoned a local salad bar just before a local election, and were found guilty of the biggest telephone-tapping scam in the history of the USA.

I know it seems an unlikely scenario to you, but have you ever really asked yourself why you believe Maharaji could never follow the example of the likes of Jim Jones or Rajneesh?

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 02:24:16 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: If that were there case
Message:
Okay, let me put it this way: for all I know Maharaji could quit being the Perfect Master before he leaves his body. I'm not saying he will or not; I'm saying I do not know.

Therefore, let's take your scenario of a possibility of Maharaji ever becoming like Jones or Rajneesh or any other number of dark examples we have seen in the past decades. Personally, if Maharaji started actually saying the kinds of things Jim Jones said (sorry, I'm not familiar with Rajneesh enough to speak of him), such as talking about a possible need for suicide, then at that point I would STOP following him.

However, Maharaji has been very consistent in what he has been teaching, and what he is teaching is very far removed from Jim Jones and one might say even the polar opposite when it comes to life versus suicide. For now, I have no worries.

If Maharaji were to start sounding like Bal Bhagwanji, for instance, or Jim Jones -- yes, I would leave him and not look back.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 23:20:28 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'Jesus -- plus more' you say?
Message:
I think M could only do something that crazy if he re-established the ashrams, cos you need to be completely away from sanity and the ability for rational thought to follow someone to the death... mind you, maybe permanent knowlege centres would be a start - or even Amaroo. that would be pretty far removed and with everyone so blissed out and everything it might be the perfect setting. Better take care next time you go, premies. That longing to be away from 'the world' could lead to a permanent removal. (Just an opinion, best to be fore-warned.)
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 10:11:26 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: creativejani and all here
Subject: please find her the thread on EV like Jones'
Message:
inner circle? It ran not too long ago. It talked about the parallels between the climate of fear at the residence and the same around Jones' inner circle, about the way both Jones and maharaji employ constant restructuring and shuffling around to keep people off blance and never knowing what the leader wanted next, about the rageaholism of both Jones and maharaji, their paranoia, their demand for absolute servitude, their having sex with female followers and then dismissing them utterly and banishing them out of invovement, and about both of them deliberately setting people closest to them against each other to see what they would do. Tell her also about the sadistic things both of them put their closest servants up to in order to 'test' them.
Some of the posting came form Marianne, some of it came from Michael Donner.
It ain't hearsay if you were there in person when it happened. That ain't speculation, conjecture or opinion.
That's first person, eyewitness testimony, convictable evidence in a court of law.

One other point christian:

if maharaji was doing such things as would make you leave immediately, the only place you would learn of them
WOULD BE HERE AT EPO, BECAUSE NO WAY WOULD HE LET IT BE KNOWN WILLINGLY, AND NO WAY WOULD ELAN VITAL OR THE PREMIES BE THE ONES WHO WOULD ALLOW THEMSELVES OR YOU TO KNOW IT.

SO YOU WILL DEFINITELY LEARN OF IT HERE, NOT OVER THERE. WE WILL TELL YOU THE REAL STORY. WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO CAN.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 16:16:08 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: interesting point about where we get our news on m
Message:
an interesting point to note from janet's post to christian.

suppose you began to suspect some strange things were going on in maharaji-land.
Maybe it was things he said, or the way he seemed to act, or the people around him...

lets say something made you just a bit uneasy with the whole thing, and you wanted to get some insight into it, some clarification on something....basically, you just wanted to know the truth about the man who you implicitly follow, who now seems to act in ways you are uneasy about...

WHERE would you get your news?
WHERE would go to talk about it to ease your mind?
WHERE could you even express these concerns and get a real and thoughtful answer?
WHERE could you dialog with someone about it?
WHERE could you express doubts?

Christian: would it be at 'Enjoying life with knowledge' or 'EPO?'

AND, why is that? Does that tell us something?

again, just simply stating the obvious...
(hmmm, maybe m and I do have something in common...we like to point out the obvious...)

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 15:56:57 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: Mahasamadhi
To: Everyone
Subject: New clickon news add area to this site?
Message:
Lots of good ideas in the threads below on using news adds. Don't loose this info and let this momentum slip by. How about a special section of accumulated ideas and current updates? Any new person to this site shold easily see that this information is available to them. And we also would keep updated as to what people are doing.

Why wait for official programs to run small inexpensive ads that direct peope to this ex-premie site. Run one in your city whwnever you can afford to and thus keep the info about rawat running far and wide.

On such a site there could be a camera ready small ad that could be downloaded by any body to use anywhere. -ViC

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:17:07 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Clarification - This Forum and the EPO Site
Message:
Before Brian, the EPO Webmaster, responds, I would like to clarify the relationship between this Forum and the EPO site.

The Forum is owned and managed separately from the EPO site, although it currently shares the same server as the EPO site, and the forum software was written by the EPO webmaster.

The EPO site itself has no official, or primary, status among sites set up by ex-premies, and as far as I am concerned it has equal status to other exes' sites such as Roger Drek's and Sir Dave's sites. It was set up, as the others were, by exes, and ownership has passed to Brian (although Jean-Michel currently contributes to the running of the site, since his own site content was transferred to the EPO site following EV's legal threat).

So, why am I saying this now? Because it's not always clear who is the intended addressee for suggestions for changes to site content. Also, although the EPO site name includes .org, there is no organisation of ex-premies, where members can submit suggestions for the running of the organisation.

So, if you have an idea, by all means feel free to share it on this forum, but if you wish it happen, then you have a choice. Either establish a relationship with someone who already has an anti-Maharaji site so that the necessary interest and co-operation can be established, or set up your own site, as others here have done.

This idea, for instance, could be set up on a Geocities web site by any ex or group of exes who is interested in setting it up, although I'm not precluding the possibility of one of the webmasters of existing sites taking up the idea.

Forum Admin

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:29:22 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: It's cheap: It makes sense.
Message:
Lets do it Tim and others.
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:51:59 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Great idea!!
Message:
I'll offer some of my time for that.
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:49:24 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: New clickon news add area to this site?
Message:
Great idea! EPO should have a page to download for those occasions,
About publishing without an event in the area: In my opinion this should be done very sparingly or not at all. It could undermine news value, and therefore the chance for a big time press event.
Picketing in front of non public programs, placing an ad and giving notice to the press, could also make closed programs into newsworthy events.
If any of those programs turns into chaos, the press is already aware, and with the proper info (EPO) can turn into a major scandal, being picked up by major newsbroadcasts!
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 10:43:41 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Suckers for Pseudonyms
Subject: Lets see: There's Lard of course, and BM, MahaHaha
Message:
Captain Rawat, Rev. Moonbeam, Maharoonie, the urug, Mariachi (I like that one), the Goomer, 'M', LOTU . . .

What else, there's dozens of 'em. Everyone has their favorite.

Any fellow list-makers feel like adding to the tally?

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 22:15:08 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: I liked Barry Bollix Shaw , but it never took (nt)
Message:
h
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 04:07:20 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: 'Ere, you having a go at me Bin?
Message:
Using my name like that, what a flamin' liberty!

bazza
aka Barry Shaw

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:22:35 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Oops , my mishtake , forgot about you (nt)
Message:
m
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 03:29:47 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: No worries mate, I've bin called worse recently nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:23:37 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: These nicknames from FV Glossary
Message:
Names for Maharaji:

M = Maharaji

The Captain or Captain Rawat = Maharaji when flying

The Client = Maharaji when anyone else is around

The Speaker = how Maharaji is explained to hotel and hall management

Reverand Rawat = First and only representative of the Enigmatic and Autodidactic Church of the Non-Hindu Maharajism

LOTU = Lord of the Universe

You Know Who = how he refers to himself now

Other knicknames for M:

MJ
GMJ
Sant Ji
The Perfect Master
Sat Guru
PPSR
Harharaji
Bratwat
Lard
Rugu
Urug
The Fatguru
Hamster (as in 'Perfect Hamster')
Tubby
Captain Rawat
Goomraji
Goober
Mahaha
Margie
Miragey
Rawrat
Rotwat
Karma Chameleon
God-in-a-Bod
His Rotundity
God in Human Form
The Greatest Incarnation of God to Ever Trod the Planet

Names for M family members:

Rogerji = Raja Ji

Bowlajello = Bhole Ji

Bubble Gumji = Bal Bhagwan Ji

Sat Pal = Bal Bhagwan Ji

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 21:21:52 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Got a new one, I think
Message:
Not sure if it's original but it popped into my brain today.

Oxy moron

;-.

f

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:38:03 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: I just knew there was a 'Master List' (ouch)
Message:
Thanks! It's fun to encounter the ever-more-clever bastardizations and humorously fractured moniker mangles as we shake off the shackles, and save beaucoup shekels.

Jeez, I'd better stop.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 15:00:11 (GMT)
From: Gary
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Lets see: There's Lard of course, and BM, MahaHaha
Message:
I believe PatC owns the title concerning AKAs : ballyouguesswhat, you-know-who, pimple rawat, are a few of his creations.
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 15:50:35 (GMT)
From: Me Again
Email: None
To: Gary
Subject: Oh yeah and Rev. Moonbeam, Urug, Urug Uturn . . .
Message:
he's got a million of them I tell ya . .
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 10:54:53 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: nope
To: Carl
Subject: Malarky, Ringwiath, Jalopy, Balletyogashwamp
Message:
Gumangi, Jujumillwalkie, Ballony, Betty
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:51:09 (GMT)
From: nt
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: don't fergit Filament and RawRatt (TM) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 02:25:14 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: So let's do it !
Message:
Below we had a great thread in which we discussed a public announcement in the places where m. was going to speak publicly.
This would allow potential victims to be better informed, and would attract also people who are not afraid to ask painful questions, or even better, the press. (read my post about Amsterdam, this really happened).
I would be willing to spend some money on this.
Since I have ADD, I am not the one to organize this.
If I get a bankaccount#, I would be willing to pay my share for ads in the local papers.
Wouldn't it be so cool to see his efforts to gain new followers go to waste and see the press expose all scandals and rip him to shreds?

(YESYESYESYES) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 03:06:58 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: I'm in -GOOD IDEA!
Message:
How much do you want. You got my email address. SB

It would be super!!! Good idea!

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 17:21:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Nottingham Program June 16-17 -- CALLING BRITS
Message:
I just noticed that there is an 'event' (something about a 30th anniversary celebr) in the UK on June 16-17.

So, that would be a good time for the Brits to do an ad or do some other kind of EPO, and Maharaji's past.

That would be just about a year after MRC did the advert in connection with that program in Boston and put the MRC letter on line.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 03:17:09 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: creativejani@aol.com
To: Joe
Subject: Nottingham Program June 16-17 -- CALLING BRITS
Message:
Hi Joe, I'd be into that, I posted another reply but don't know what happened to it. The programmes aren't public though, so I don't know how many people would see the local paper who'd otherwise be going. Placards outside, or even discreet cards with the website addresses on them might be more effective. Once you know these sites exist, it's too intriguing not to look , and once you hear the stuff M's been up to...

Email me if you want to organise something.

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 11:22:49 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: creativejani and joe
Subject: Joe / Creativejani - Email about IT if you like nt
Message:
x
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 04:36:42 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Good idea for those discreet cards for premies...
Message:
This was discussed a few months ago...

we thought that a link to epo would be best achieved through a'pro-maharaji' sounding title on the card.

a negative one would instantly tip the prems off that it is anti-maharaji, and they might be tempted to look, but also might not look.

a 'pro- maharaji' sounding title would welcome all people in: premies, press, aspirants, interested onlookers, ex-premies etc.

I think Nigel came up with :

'Maharaji: Revealing the Truth...'

I think a few others were:

'Maharaji: The truth within...'

'Maharaji: Knowing the truth..'

Any other ideas for titles on the cards?

Also, could it be linked to EPO?

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:47:31 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Good idea for those discreet cards for premies...
Message:
Leaflets on car windscreens would be good - what about: 'The Truth? You be the judge!' Could have EV's answers to criticisms, with appropriate quotes showing it to be lies, plus the EPO address. And maybe a nice piccie of M in his Krishna crown, and giving darshan...
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 08:11:57 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: Bob and SB
Subject: Email me .. and which thread doya mean??nt
Message:
x
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:13:48 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: everybody
Subject: Email me .. and which thread doya mean??nt
Message:
Must have been unclear above, sorry.
The thread below: Usa today denunciation-
my post: some history from Amsterdam-

I should not take the lead in this as I have ADD, attention deficit disorder, which really disqualifies a person for organizing tasks: without ritalin I cannot even hold on to a job!
I do not want to lose other peoples money, like m.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 14:42:58 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: American programs
Message:
I think there is plenty of support for ads in newspapers for any upcoming Rawat events in the U.S. Once a city is announced, we should probably organize by email off-line.
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:44:34 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Have any US programs been announced? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 17:09:41 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: No, just a rumor about Worchester, Mass. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 14:59:28 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I'll mak e the banners. NT
Message:
yeap!
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 12:33:57 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Email me .. and which thread doya mean??nt
Message:
Your brain is going to get better now that you left the cult.Every premie I know is sick in one way or another. Rat kept us anxious, weak and needy. Strenghten your being; regain power/energy and you will heal; he threw the enrgy that regulates the body out of balance. I was physically healthy before meeting him and later on I began to develop all kind of medical problems: My body got sick because he sicken my mind!

When did you get Add, before or after 'heaven'?

Medications for ADD are too harsh in the body; natural medicine can help. How do you control your condition? Why am I telling this here? I just got up. I'll email you about this.

Attention: We put ratashi up now is our moral obligation to bring his arsh down? Yeap. That is what I think.

S

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 20:58:09 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: ADD
Message:
I will get to e-mailing you probably after my move to GA.
I had ADD, Attention defict disorder since early childhood, although not diagnosed then.
Ritalin does help me a lot to get organized, I can hold a job nowadays! My father and his sister, and her son have this condition as well, it runs in families.
There are some alternative therapies and diets which work for some people, but for most people with ADD stimulant medication, and sometimes antidepressants are proven to work much more effective, certainly in my case.
Of course having ADD , which is known to make people more accident- and mistake-prone, was one of the reasons getting into the cult.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:26:45 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: ADD
Message:
I understand. I'll email you one of these days regarding ADD.
Be well!
love,
sb
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 09:26:28 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Bob
Subject: Email me ..
Message:
Hi Bob
If you are good enough to organise I am glad to make a reasonable contribution. Just Email me when you want.
Tally Ho
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 15:24:56 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Public event in Mauritius
Message:
I was a bit surprised to see that Rawat is planning a public event in Mauritius, Sunday, Oct. 28. The event is for people from Africa only. No public events in the entire European tour, though, wonder why.
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 16:46:26 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Poor Indians receive k by 1000ds!!
Message:
and currency better than Indian rupees !!
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