Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 16:41:34 (GMT)
From: May 18, 2001 To: May 29, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


janet -:- FAQ's-now he's blaming US for believing him! -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 18:21:44 (GMT)
__ such -:- he be da proverbial Karma Chameleon,Janet. P+L (nt -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:18:49 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Perhaps he should blame his secretary -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:07:13 (GMT)
__ magnolia -:- guru is just chunkier than god -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 12:57:46 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- But Ragu is just chunkier than guru -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:04:07 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- Hijacked idealism-propagation justifies anything -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 11:05:58 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- It won't hold up in court. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:37:41 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- FAQ's-now he's admitting his culpability -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 05:47:05 (GMT)
__ Discrapancy -:- shit-fer-brains -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:08:41 (GMT)
__ Gordon Showcase -:- You bitter and twisted people -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:04:43 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- like lemon in a martini, baby. chilled, shaken... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 13:23:16 (GMT)
__ __ Bai Ghosh Ji -:- By golly!Truly, Mahraji really is greater than God -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:18:42 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Rev Pimple Rawat, we taught you! You owe us! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 00:31:59 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Yeah,miragey, kiss our feet.Read the truth here... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:18:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- Yeah,miragey, kiss our feet.Read the truth here... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:41:41 (GMT)
__ donner -:- FAQ's-now he's blaming US for believing him! -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 23:51:08 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- FAQ's-now he's blaming US for believing him! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:51:00 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- FAQ's-now he's blaming US for believing him! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:53:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- And he gets through Press Officers 10 to the dozen -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:48:11 (GMT)
__ __ Connie -:- Yep, trying to have it all ways....... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:00:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi Connie -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:57:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Hi Connie -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:59:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- such self-assured arrogance -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:34:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Connie -:- well and happy thanks Pat -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 13:13:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Looking forward to hearing more from you, Connie -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:57:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- You are brillant PC and Connie is arrogant! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:57:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You said: ''Yuppie: We're Free form Rat!'' -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:03:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- my English... Oh my -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:19:06 (GMT)
__ __ suchabanana -:- Yeah,what a total crock: m's EV revisionist BS!(nt -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 00:32:56 (GMT)
__ When he comes my -:- way, he will find a wecoming comittee.........nt -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 23:48:11 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- 'When people saw me at that time , they.. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:55:00 (GMT)
__ SB -:- LIES, lies, lies, lies.... -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:02:53 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- I guess I misunderstood this:- -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- I guess I misunderstood this:- -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:42:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- The Peace Bomb Satsang (India - 1971) -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:55:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- The Peace Bomb Satsang (India - 1971) -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:21:54 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- The songbook has lots of odes to .. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:06:37 (GMT)
__ __ Rick W -:- The songbook has lots of odes to .. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:23:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- eesh Fake irrinand -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:01:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Jeans- LOL -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:16:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Jeans- LOL agree! -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:23:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Jeans- LOL agree! -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:31:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Acapulco sounds great! 4 of us too (ot) -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:40:29 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- What a barefaced fucking liar! -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:01:09 (GMT)
__ __ Tony -:- What a barefaced fucking liar! -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:12:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- What a barefaced fucking liar! yes you Rawat -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:43:21 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- I never claimed divinity with that woman... -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:59:12 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- At least the trains ran on time Scott. (nt) -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:50:11 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Delicious Deconstructualism! (no textialism) -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:35:22 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- To Janet - Your Press Kit Link post -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:37:49 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- i think i know why it wouldnt link-its intranet -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:01:04 (GMT)
__ kev -:- I love this line -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:05:08 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- What a lyin' sack of SH*T!!! Yes, you Maharaji -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:47:42 (GMT)
__ __ Tony -:- What a lyin' sack of SH*T!!! Yes, you Maharaji -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:55:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Clark Kent -:- What a lyin' sack of SH*T!!! Yes, you Maharaji -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- What a lyin' sack of SH*T!!! Yes, you Maharaji -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Selene... -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:36:54 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Give him a break .... -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 18:57:37 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- a break? my pleasure! neck?nose?jaw?skull?spine? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:24:36 (GMT)

Disculta -:- Is the light really the love of God? -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 00:53:27 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Is the light really the love of God? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:20:30 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Yep, dopamine for dumping and dying -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:59:23 (GMT)
__ sb -:- Is the light really the love of God? -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:27:06 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- I too have no belief system-follow my ''instinct'' -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:04:28 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Is the light really the love of God? -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 17:28:19 (GMT)
__ Kaj -:- NDE and Susan Blackmore -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 16:18:38 (GMT)
__ __ Lesley -:- This makes sense to me -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:21:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- This makes sense to me -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:04:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- self love -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:50:37 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- NDE and Susan Blackmore -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:47:10 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- evidence for this explanation? -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 17:08:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- evidence for this explanation? -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:40:42 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- The jury's out. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 16:01:21 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- The jury's out. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:04:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Aims in life. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:53:49 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- The jury's out. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:45:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Curious George -:- this moment is different than any before it.... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:45:44 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- What kids have seen and say -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 14:16:52 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- NDE without the golden doughnut -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 15:47:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- NDE Pos - Neg. experiences / Al Spooner -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 18:31:29 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- Real light vs. the golden doughnut -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 13:44:20 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- ok to enjoy Your Light w/o concepts or miragey (nt -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 09:19:21 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- oh you turning out to be slippery like a fish -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 10:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- email test run worked;gotta spray for ants now (nt -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 18:56:58 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Light? What light? -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 02:36:20 (GMT)
__ G -:- like a traffic light. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 01:34:10 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- like,yellow means: slow down vehicle to a stop -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 10:20:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- You are the light -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 15:25:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- Traffic (ot) -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 12:54:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- I pass lots of major intersection accidents (ot -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:07:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Traffic (still ot) -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:13:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- I hear traffic all day;sprawl,pollution w/o vision -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 00:21:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Too much -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 05:25:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Too much -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:21:48 (GMT)

JHB -:- That which is valuable to us -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:46:23 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- Another thought provoking post from JHB -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 03:57:18 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- The point is, it's our choice -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 05:04:31 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- That which is valuable to us -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 23:35:30 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- That which is valuable to us -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 19:19:27 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- Sorrow of Arjuna: he killed his own relatives (nt -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 00:15:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- how canyou just toss this upwith no text?!?! -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 15:56:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- it's a 'literary reference': Gita, Title-chapter 1 -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:26:54 (GMT)

AJW -:- Catweazle, come back and answer my questions. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 11:28:18 (GMT)
__ CW -:- Catweasel,come back so I can score points off you? -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:23:21 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Not a word of wisdom in 3000US worth of waffle? -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:51:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cw -:- Edited by FA -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:48:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- See the Cat Dodge the Questions. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 08:40:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- See the Cat Dodge the Questions. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:03:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- See the Cat Dodge the Questions. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:05:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Delving into the depths of the weasel -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:39:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Delving into the depths of the weasel -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:40:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Delving into the depths of the weasel -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:15:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Edited by FA -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:29:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Ah, Catweazle, you're back. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:32:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Edited by FA -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 11:53:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dud is right. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 21:09:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Dud is right. -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:58:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Dud is right. -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:54:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Dud is right. Did the darshan wear off already? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 03:06:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- edited by CW -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:55:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You tickle my funny bone, Weasel Pie -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:54:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- That's an interesting thought Pat -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 14:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Still no answers. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 14:19:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Edited by FA -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 14:56:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- The Spanish inquistion? In Putney?. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:45:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Alas Cat Gorra Go. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:04:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ A monkey's uncle -:- Tch, tch -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 23:40:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Ah, but you wouldn't understand it, anyway, Anth -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 20:50:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CW -:- Why do you want to know anyway? -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 05:11:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Yeah, but somebody might Nige'. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 21:47:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Nottingham -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 21:54:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Scuba kit and candles. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:02:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Skating on thin ice -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:10:14 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- a dog licks the hand of the master who beats it.nt -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:51:49 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- JS who? -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:43:00 (GMT)
__ Christian Star -:- A story Maharaji told at Amaroo -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 13:47:58 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- You need a different lens. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 13:18:42 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- If this is wisdom, I'm a rishi's aunt. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:04:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bai Gosh Ji -:- By golly - Anth you are such a cynical plushy -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:18:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Reminds me of the furry frog in the well. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:29:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I sure hope your Jim in Amaroo post doesn't -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:38:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- PS. Jim in Amaroo. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:10:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- PS. Jim in Amaroo. rofl rofl rofl NT -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:20:21 (GMT)
__ __ Bai Gosh Ji -:- By golly, Christian Ji, you are a holy Hindu! -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:00:08 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- A story Maharaji told -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:06:10 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Oh am so -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:37:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Jai Sat Chit Anand salam -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 15:45:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- you in the slammer or somethin? -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:01:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Salam you have a way with words -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:45:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- you're welcome -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 02:27:52 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Rawat claims to be the Sustainer -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:13:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- Rawat claims to be the Sustainer -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:46:43 (GMT)
__ __ toby -:- christian star /story reteller -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 14:56:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- What you resist persists -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:17:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Katie, darling! (nt -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:46:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rick W -:- Whatever happened to Mili? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:48:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dermot -:- insightful and compassionate.Thanks. (nt) -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:06:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Your posts are a breath of sanity Katie. (nt) -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 21:51:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Premies!!! Read this and THINK!!! -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 21:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mark -:- What you resist persists -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 20:38:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- so totally right on darling nt -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:37:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Yes, Fabulous Post, Disculta! (nt) -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:34:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Go, Disculta, go! -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 20:52:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Narendereneth -:- No one else in the world can make u feel so great -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:01:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- no one can 'make' you feel anything, dude. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 16:57:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- no one can 'make' you feel anything, dude. -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:28:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yeah janet - you said it!!!!!!! /nt -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:06:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- the problem..... -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 03:06:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bai Ghosh Ji -:- By golly, Mahatama Neanderthal, you are so brave -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 23:30:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tim G -:- No one else in the world can make u feel so great -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 23:24:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Why are you trying to confuse us by.. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:21:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Yes - you can -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:15:45 (GMT)

bill -:- so the door is open now for a lawsuit it appears -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 02:47:37 (GMT)
__ bill -:- If you want to sue TM also, here is your evidence. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 03:31:55 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- Meditate CONSTANTLY in the holy name -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 04:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- Meditate CONSTANTLY, equals mental torture. NT -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:32:55 (GMT)

Larkin -:- Just some more unsynchronised syncopations... -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:23:28 (GMT)
__ Bai Gosh Ji -:- By golly - your balls upon a golden plate -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:30:01 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Give up the day job Larkin. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 11:32:26 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- Pulitzer prize. -:- Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:50:42 (GMT)

TiM -:- Why is Forum response time so slow? Quicken? -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 17:18:22 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Apparently Morse Code connections are a little slo -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:24:37 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Not a problem for me usually n/t -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:38:08 (GMT)

TiM -:- The Superior Power In Person - news ads -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 17:12:52 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- The Superior Power In Person - news ads -:- Sat, May 19, 2001 at 20:42:26 (GMT)


Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 18:21:44 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: FAQ's-now he's blaming US for believing him!
Message:
in my email today, i got a reissue of some earlier EV newsletter from amaroo and i opened it. saw a link in the margin i hadnt seen before so i went there. and there I saw another link at the bottom of the page to a press kit page. so i went there.
and there in clear reaction to our work here, were these responses, new ones, more pointed, to the FAQ's our postings stir up.
now he isn't blaming the indian mahatmas anymore. Now he's blaming us directly, for listening and taking him at his own word:

and I quote:
'Maharaji never at any time claimed to be God. As an Indian national, when Maharaji first started teaching in the west when he was 13 years old, he used many examples from eastern traditions which demonstrated that a student seeking fulfillment could do so by choosing to follow the teachings of a guru or master. As he matured he realized that western traditions put a very different emphasis on the idea of guru and wrongly attributed messianic labels in this process. He changed his language to use the term master only and gradually removed all Indian associations from his teaching, as this is not a path just for Indians but is something that is available for anyone regardless of color, religion or race. It is acknowledged that many people at the time were already looking for a messianic type figure. That Maharaji was not such a figure disappointed some people.
He recollects: 'I remember coming to the West and talking to people. Some had the idea that once you attained this 'high' state of being, you would become super-human. You would be in a perpetual state of peace with no confusion in your life, ever. Even at my very young age, I understood that this was not the way it was supposed to be.'
'Knowledge is about having a passion for life, falling in love with life. It is about making a continuous effort to learn and grow. It is not meant to take you away from all the experiences of living, it is about accepting and enjoying what it really means to be alive. It's true that I can help people feel something that is beautiful, something that exists inside them. I consider it a gift. But, to become above it all - I have never pursued that, nor do I want to. This is one of those bizarre things. When people saw me at that time, they really didn't understand what it was all about.'

what a sonofabitch.
------
you lying prick. who was it who told me that i needed the Perfect Master? You sold me the concept, and you sold me the need. I had never heard of such a thing and wasn't looking. You sack of shit! For every lie you tell, we will shoot it down with your own words, your own record, your own acts, and make plain the truth.

it takes a master liar to lie to us then, and now lie so smugly to the world about your earlier lies.
you were lying to us when you said you were god in person, and now you try to appear virtuous by asserting that because you knew you werent god when you told us you were, that now you're telling the truth by saying you aren't.

----------
i really should do a code exposure on the EV page and find out what metatags it's headed by, so we can match them in search engines. anyone want the link to the presskit?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:18:49 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: he be da proverbial Karma Chameleon,Janet. P+L (nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:07:13 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: janet
Subject: Perhaps he should blame his secretary
Message:
...the one who drafted the following dedication for new premies to recite as they chewed the carpet before his picture on the altar (oops, I mean 'table with a white sheet on it').

BTW: This was 1978. M was a married, adult, rich, naturalised American. When fatrawat says about being misunderstood 'when I first came to the West' one can only suppose he must mean the first decade of living in the West.

But you can't blame him entirely if his clerical staff let him down. Probably just some unskilled, unpaid premie misheard the Teacher of the Universe's dictation and typed this:

'Oh my Guru Maharaj Ji, I dedicate myself to You. I am weak and ignorant and am filled with the impurities of this world.

Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, through Knowledge please purify me of the impurities I possess. Reveal to me the Knowledge of all Knowledges. Strengthen me, uplift me and reveal the Truth within inside of me.

Bring me from hate to love, darkness to light, death to immortality.

I will follow Your direction and never reveal this Knowledge to anybody for any reason.

I will keep in contact with You through my devotional love, satsang, meditation and service.

Instead of typing this:

Oh my Guru Maharaj Ji, I there is no need for me to dedicate myself to you, since you are weak and ignorant and filled with the impurities of this world, which doesn't matter in the least since it's all about my experience and, after all, this isn't a cult I'm joining. I accept your 'free gift' of knowledge with no strings attached (which isn't really a gift because you have no less k in stock than you did prior to present transaction - and anyway, I understand you make a pretty decent living out of all this, no?). And I might just come and listen to you talk if you can come up with anything to say that is beyond banal, new-age cliche and illustrates a deeper understanding of the human condition than I could get off my milkman. What I do from now on is none of your damned business, fuck-face. If K is any good I might pass it on to others since it no more belongs to you than it does to me.


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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 12:57:46 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: guru is just chunkier than god
Message:
hi janet-

i remember when my boyfriend revealed that heavy little hindu slogan to me - 'guru is greater than god' - in order to explain so much in an economy of words about m and guruism. it sounded like just that - a slogan - and my reaction was not that of a young draft-avoiding idealist like he must have been in 1971, but of an american working mom with children who has heard far more intriguing lines. i just thought 'no, i think that god would still be greater than a guru, because couldn't god reveal him or herself directly to a seeker?' i mean, if i revealed god to myself, i am not arrogant enough to say that it would make me 'greater than god'.

by the way, when i first entered my boyfriend's home and saw a framed picture of m with his feet propped up on a pillow, i thought that my boyfriend must have some chunky hispanic or samoan relative, and that the guy sure knew how to make himself comfortable. 'is that your brother?' i asked him. he laughed and said that this was a photo of his guru. after he explained foot-kissing, i was just sort of grossed out by the sort of greasy looking guru with the oddly blonde wife. i mean, i disliked m on sight - unattractive and pompous-looking, with orchestrated vanity photos on par with madonna. every vintage photograph and piece of seventies literature just did not seem to jibe with the present official message. the discrepancies led me to this site about six months ago.

revisionism seems like the true religion here, not hinduism.

magnolia

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:04:07 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: But Ragu is just chunkier than guru
Message:
You crack me up, Magnolia. I just loved this line of yours: ''...revisionism seems like the true religion here, not hinduism.''

Gurujism is revisionism. Each perfect living master is more perfect than the one before and the current living one is always more perfect today than he was yesterday. Yada yada yada.

Or is he just chunkier today than he was yesterday?

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 11:05:58 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Hijacked idealism-propagation justifies anything
Message:
Lies are so common these days. All day we float in an ocean of them. Skill with language is now synonymous with power to manipulate. Is this Knowlege so fucking brilliant that you have to push it out on to people- whatever? Spin, dodge, posture, interpret, front, charm, oil, waffle, suggest, evade--BOLLOCKS! I don't think so. Premies used to look shiny-eyed, now some I see have eyes like sharks.

The main loser in all this is language itself.

Yech.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:37:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: It won't hold up in court.
Message:
All those times we stood in front of him and sang,

'You are my father and you are my mother.
You are my all, my Lord to me.
Guru Maharaji my life is within you.' etc

But we're falling for his spin a bit here janet, because when I first joined the cult Captain Rawat was pushing himself as being, not merely the Creator in human form, but 'Greater than God.' and who knows, maybe he still believes it.

Because, 'When you are dying of thirst, what is more important? The water or the person who brings it to you.'

Actually, if the cult and the Captain are pushing this line, they're fucked.

We've got a poster of him, published by his organisation, and sold to his followers, saying, 'God is Great but Guru is Greater'. (It's on EPO.)

We've got countless pictures of him dressed up as Lord Krishna.

And we have the recent testimony from a devoted follower, Catweazle, that a couple of weeks ago a few thousand people lined up to put money in an envelope then kiss his feet.

I can't believe they're so stupid. They should have taken me up on my offer to do their PR. I could give the cult at least another year. The way they're going they won't see Christmas.

Anth, glad it's official he's not God any more.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 05:47:05 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: FAQ's-now he's admitting his culpability
Message:
Dear janet,

good sleuthing.

I've been chewing on this one today and it finally occurred to me how speciaous is his whole argument. It is wonderfully full of red herrings etc.

First up - to sustain his main argument is to make himself out to be a complete turkey - irrespective of whatever else he said at the time. For instance - what CEO would get away with saying that for years his staff didn't understand what he was asking or do what he wanted? None. The CEO would be rightly held responsible.

Secondly - this whole gambit is wonderfully reminiscent of an attorney who has to argue the unarguable. What a person simply does is concoct a larger and more abstruse but superficially plausible strategem. He has done this here. His own words, or the words of EV actually attach all blame to him. Its like a pop star saying they didn't want the adulation or money or attention they just wanted people to pay attention to their lyrics - 'yeah Poor popstar!'

And following his own wonderful lead so far, he can even deny that those were his words - someone took them out of context, they were misquoted, he didn't mean it. Its a wonderful ploy - from the point of view of a nascissistic bastard - unbelievable convalutions.

Cheers and once again good sleuthing and bringing it back here.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:08:41 (GMT)
From: Discrapancy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: shit-fer-brains
Message:
But, to become above it all - I have never pursued that, nor do I want to. This is one of those bizarre things
NEVER question the purity of this KNOWLEDGE, NEVER question the purity of the MASTER. Maharaji, Miami, May, 2001
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:04:43 (GMT)
From: Gordon Showcase
Email: premie@money.com
To: janet
Subject: You bitter and twisted people
Message:
Maharaji did used to be God but look at the miracle that he's performed. He's ungodded himself. Now only God can do that and it's all for our benefit.

See, he realised that him being God was too much for us mere mortals so he turned himself into an ordinary man with normal human fiobles and such compassion he has for us, because every time he smokes a joint or gets half cut or tries to get his leg over, he's doing it for us so that he can understand what it's like to be a mortal human.

Ann Johnston said that Maharaji only chain smokes to keep his feet on the ground and to stop himself from leaving the world and ascending into Heaven. God, you people are so ungrateful.

Don't you know that Maharaji said that if he hadn't had those stomach ulcers in the seventies, the world would have been destroyed by nuclear war. He's relinquished all his 64 yogic powers so that he can be like us and all you people do is harp on about how Maharaji lied when he said he was God come to stop the child crawling into the fire.

Of course he was Krishna incarnate but now he isn't. Only God can perform such a feat as that and he's not God now anyway and never was. You cannot understand this with the rational mind because you have to have that experience.

It's beyond time and space and you people are so caught up in such limitations. If Maharaji was God before and now he never was, it's the ultimate paradox. And only the few can understand this paradox because they have realised the master, or teacher or whatever he wants to call himself.

Truly, Mahraji really is greater than God.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 13:23:16 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: like lemon in a martini, baby. chilled, shaken...
Message:
and not stirred.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:18:42 (GMT)
From: Bai Ghosh Ji
Email: None
To: Gordon Showcase
Subject: By golly!Truly, Mahraji really is greater than God
Message:
Mahatma Sowcase Ji, you truly astound me with your understanding. These manmuts are very ungrateful. Thank you for your blissful satsang.

PatC - I'm getting find of Bai Ghosh Ji.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 00:31:59 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Rev Pimple Rawat, we taught you! You owe us!
Message:
You Know Who says: ''When people saw me at that time, they really didn't understand what it was all about.''

Yes, that is correct. I suppose we were meant to read your mind when you shoved all the Hindu ''greater than god'' shit down our throats and realize that you were just being...well, hyperbolically Hindu. No, we did not understand. That's why we came to a guru (teacher) to be taught. Duh!

I think you brought a bunch of Hindu bullshit to the west and shoved it down our throats and then realized that you were wrong and so you revised your teachings. In other words you learned from us and not us from you. We sat around for 30 years waiting for you to catch up to us with your understanding and you still have not. You're a silly man.

You therefore need to refund all of our money and also pay us for what we taught you. Everything that you have in the way of material goods and western kowledge came from us. You brought absolutely nothing of value whatsoever. And while you're about it you can kiss our feet whenever you want for teaching you what a load of crap your Hindu guru bullshit is.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:18:07 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yeah,miragey, kiss our feet.Read the truth here...
Message:
Who is Guru Maharaj ji?

The 'authentic authorized story':

'Why do more than six million people around the world claim he is the greatest incarnation of God that ever trod the face of this planet? Why do Christian priests claim that he has taught them the way to love? Why do Hindus refer to him as the Swan Avatar?'

-- DLM/EVI, Bantam Books, 1973

'God is the same, but now we look for Him to come in a new way, to give His Knowledge. Jesus gave this Knowledge, Krishna gave this Knowledge, but now we must look again for a new Master to show us the light. I have not come to establish a new religion or sect, but I have come to give you Knowledge...' -- miragey

...'they expect God Himself to come, they pray for it, they ask for it, they announce about it, but when He comes they fail to recognize Him. And not recognizing Him is His physical form, they cannot recognize him within themselves.' -- miragey

...'whenever he comes to the physical world, the Perfect Master has to tolerate many difficulties.' - miragey

'We have to find this Word by a teacher, a guide. A guide who is perfect, and who can teach this perfect Knowledge to us. A perfect guide can guide us. You need a burning lamp to light other lamps. So, in the same way you need an enlightened Perfect Master to make you enlightened and perfect also. IF THE MASTER HIMSELF IS NOT PERFECT, HOW CAN HE MAKE YOU PERFECT? YOU NEED A PERFECT Master.' -miragey

'when Satguru comes... He is perfect, He was perfect, and He will be perfect... A devotee is sitting in America, Guru is sitting in India, but both have a very powerful connection...So, remember. We have to find that God, that person who is perfect... So, remember: we are part of Him who has manifested Himself as a Guru and who has come into this earth, and now we have to be One with Him. We have to completely merge and make our souls one with Him because He is perfect, and once we merge with Him we will also be perfect.' - miragey [aka maharaji aka guru maharaj ji], 15 years old, 1973 Shri Hans Productions

Either these words were and are all true, or you-know-who was and is a lying sack of you-know-what. [You too, you spin doctors at EVI!] Yes, I have seen big piles from elephants, but never has lil' swami seen such huge stinky piles of deluded demonic invention/reinvention! We must exorcise these demons that have been possessing the spirits, minds and bodies of our beloved brothers and sisters!

Oy - Ol' swami is losing composure here and forgetting bliss. Ok, this carcass must be hungry for meal - time for channa marsala, rice and beans with naan bread now...

Peace and lentils to the exes, poor premies, and their families,

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:41:41 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Yeah,miragey, kiss our feet.Read the truth here...
Message:
I can't remember when exactly he changed tack on that Master must be perfect stuff. I can remember him explaining that by perfect master, he meant one who can teach perfection. I think it was probably at a public event, but I suppose that was the first sign of one of the many u-turns to come. We need a book of quotes, tracking the erratic course of the master's teaching, to really show any waverers that he can't be relied upon in any way. I'm collecting pertinent quotes from the site at the moment with that in mind, plus any others I can dig up.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 23:51:08 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: FAQ's-now he's blaming US for believing him!
Message:
i have always been curious about notion of praying to m...he will hear and all that...how exactly does that happen m?? so many people and yet you have claimed to hear and help...that even to experience meditation we should pray to you...yes you, as i clearly recall you saying time and again...how exactly does that work if one is a normal folk, not a god or saint or with some cosmic power that got passed from your father to you.

and if you are not that saint/greater then god fellow you once told us you were...then why do you think you own knowledge and are the sole controller of that particular technology...for where do you get to claim that sole responsibility after all??

curiously trying to have it all ways, seems to me...and fooling only some of the people some of the time.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:51:00 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: FAQ's-now he's blaming US for believing him!
Message:
Hi, If there were a law suit of some kind, would you be willing to be involved? I'm serious about getting this going somehow, don't know how yet. It was the stuff about Jagdeo that really got me mad and started the thought processes. There are alot of people who have been seriously and permanently hurt by M and now he's trying to get the propagation thing going again with an 'Introducing the Possibility of Knowlege' event this weekend in London, showing a bit of the Knowledge Introduction Training he had in Atlanta 2000. He hasn't seen the error of his ways yet...

People who have been betrayed and abused find it hard to hit back and get justice because they feel it was all their fault - they feel ashamed and all those emotions keep them from speaking out. EV and M are helping alot of people over here by lying so blatantly. Thanks, EV, and keep up the good work!

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:53:32 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: FAQ's-now he's blaming US for believing him!
Message:
Donner:

Excellent points. Thanks for the insight. He'd have been better off to just ignore the issue, rather than offer that lame justification. But then, restraint in the face of temptation isn't exactly his strong suit.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:48:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: And he gets through Press Officers 10 to the dozen
Message:
This means his PR is always a total disaster. It's the worst job in the world, trying to present the biggest egomaniac in the Universe as just an ordinary guy.

The only person capable of handling it is someone who knows the score, has journalistic experience, and will tell the Captain to 'Shut the fuck up and listen.'

I'm sitting by the phone, but it's not ringing.

Anth who has lots of experience at PR, and has a brief window clear at the moment.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:00:39 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Yep, trying to have it all ways.......
Message:
Donner

Perceptive post, thanks.

The whole thing smacks of such self-assured arrogance, helped by, and reflected in those wanting to and being gladly fooled.

Yuk.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:57:27 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Connie
Subject: Hi Connie
Message:
Connie, please email me.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:59:02 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi Connie
Message:
Ditto, Connie, tried to contact you last week. Love, Lesley
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:34:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: such self-assured arrogance
Message:
Hi Connie,

Long time no see. Hope you are well and happy.

In my life the most arrogant people I have ever known have always been very ignorant people too. Ignorance means ignoring (not noticing) the facts, ignoring (not listening) to others. It also means not taking advantage of others' knowledge and wisdom and not giving them respect or acknowledging their contribution. He is a very silly man. He has learned a lot from us (but not quite enough) and is so ungrateful. ;)

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 13:13:32 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: well and happy thanks Pat
Message:
felt like I needed to regroup, and not spend so much time here (though I have still been lurking regularly!).

I found those first few weeks after leaving the cult and posting here quite overwhelming. A lot came up in me about cults, m and my involvement. I needed time alone to process some of it and also start giving some much needed attention to other things in my life.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:57:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Looking forward to hearing more from you, Connie
Message:
Yes, I know you had a rough time. That first month after exiting and posting here for the first time I ended up with flu and had many a sleepless night. Then the sun rose and now I just feel happier and freer everyday. It' so nice not to have the master's leash around my neck anymore. I wish you strength and peace.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:57:20 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You are brillant PC and Connie is arrogant!
Message:
Well said PatC!

Oh divine truth, it rejoices the center of my being... I'll come for more. You guys here gave me life again. I feel I was emotionally dead and now that I can use my logic, little by little the real human being is surfacing and it feels great.

Again, thanks again to all who come here to help others, beside helping themeselves. I can feel love coming throught the PC tube, well.

Yuppie: We're Free form Rat!

Dogs need masters. People need to know themselves.
I send you my love PC, to you too Connie.

PS:The truth will send you free: Rawat is a sick, sick individual. And what do we know about Jesus? Following scriptures? hahahahahahahahaha :0 LOL

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:03:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: You said: ''Yuppie: We're Free form Rat!''
Message:
That could have been the title of your message re traffic to Scott which I read - your little vent against those free form rats, yuppies.

Sounds like you're having fun. So am I.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:19:06 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: my English... Oh my
Message:
Did I mispelled it? Yuppie? I hope you know what I ment. Hurray sounds better? LOL

I'm having so much fun, it must be the moon or something.(snicker) oink oink is gone!

Chau, be well.

SB

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 00:32:56 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Yeah,what a total crock: m's EV revisionist BS!(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 23:48:11 (GMT)
From: When he comes my
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: way, he will find a wecoming comittee.........nt
Message:
asdfgh
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:55:00 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: 'When people saw me at that time , they..
Message:
..really didn't understand what it was all about'.

The brass neck of the little fucker : lots of people saw only too clearly what 'it' was all about & never went near him ,in the days when he was in the newspapers , on TV & his ugly mug was on posters plastered all over England .

Seems to me he's saying 'fuck you dickheads who were dumb enough to believe what I said'.

Well he may have a point there , but if he thinks it's going to get them off his back he's sadly mistaken .

Thanks Janet for bringing that reeking turd of revisionist misinformation to the light of day .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:02:53 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: LIES, lies, lies, lies....
Message:
Sickening, isn't?

Sometimes I remember particular concepts he forgged in my head and it turns my stomach, because I see how twisted dishonest person he realy is, and some times I think he enjoys doing bad to people. Maybe he is not totally bad, I don't know the guy that well, but surely he's a very sick individual. He lacks morals, and avoids responsability for his own accions, always blaming somebody else for his own illusive stupidity to stay afloat and continue in bussiness.

These people are dangerous, don't you think? Yeah, I know, there are so many other cults out there, but this one interest me very much and I have now a moral obligation to do what I can to stop his dangerous insanity. How else can it stop if not by us, the ones who brought him up? We know his history and we have plenty of evidence.

Just leave them for now try and try to hide it, and as it was said here before, they are getting worse and worse at doing it. Those PAMs that cling to their pathetic need for a master, as if they were dogs or something, they themselves are responsible for perpetuating maharaji's lies irresponsibly, not caring that their cult sickens the mind of many of its followers showing the lack of genuine love and respect for other human beings. Real love unites people, theirs is plastic.

I see it coming his way. His days of secrecy are counted: We're slowly giving the lord of the universe a hand so everybody knows what a wonderful god he is. I can't wait when the whole world knows. Revenge? No, justice!

Their(EV/RAT) practices are dirty and stupidly dangerous. The more I understand the more I see how imperative it's to stop'em. He took us for a ride now is time for us to return the favorto him, so we can protect other innocent victims of falling on his trap. What a pathetic person he ended up being. It amazes me the power he had over me.

Love to you darling,

SB

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:18:44 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I guess I misunderstood this:-
Message:
Guru Maharaj Ji is such an ocean of Grace, what shall I say of Him? How is it possible to understand Him? No ordinary person can sing about the love within him,
about the love of Guru Maharaj Ji; only a true devotee of Guru Maharaj Ji can sing about it. If you do not obey what Maharaj Ji says, what is the use of your living in
this world? Rather you should die of shame! Now Guru Maharaj Ji has come. Whenever He came before, you did not accept Him. Now I have come again to reveal the
Knowledge, and still you do not understand me. Why don't you realize? Why is this curtain of darkness shadowing you? Kaliyuga will come to an end and Satyuga
will start and people will listen to me and act accordingly. Do you think it is a joke? The great leaders think that I have come to rule and yes, they are right! I will rule
the world, and just watch how I will do it. Even the lion and sheep will embrace each other. Has there been such a king before? Krishna was not such a king. Rama was
not such a king. There were lesser powers in Ram, there were lesser powers in Krishna, but I have come to the world with full powers. Accept my words, accept me. I will
give you Knowledge. If you mistake my meaning, if you mistake a single word of what I am saying, I will not forgive you.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:42:20 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I guess I misunderstood this:-
Message:
where was that quote taken from John? I don't think I was there - I'm sure I'd have remembered! But it's pretty much in line with the tone of everything he was saying when I first got involved. It would be great to do a leaflet with that quote on one side and the current EV FAQ quote on the other - it's pretty clear now there's some straightforward lying going on. Honestly, he's worse than a politician in the run up to an election!
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:55:34 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: The Peace Bomb Satsang (India - 1971)
Message:
One of my favourites - I would sometimes read it aloud for inspiration. It's reproduced on the ex-premie.org site - look under Maharaji's declarations or something like that.

I'll reply to your last email soon, I promise!

John.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:21:54 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: The Peace Bomb Satsang (India - 1971)
Message:
This is the wonder of modern technology, isn't it? Sharing information across the globe - without the internet none of us would be able to keep tabs of what's going on - and I was impressed by the speed of your reply, by the way. I'm starting to worry now about whether I gave EV my email address ever - They may send the heavies round - oh, no, of course, it's not a cult and no-one joins or leaves it because it doesn't exist. And EV and Maharaji hardly know each other really, I can see I've been very deluded for many years about all this. I will need to go for some training about the current state of affairs - not that it's ever changed, of course. No, no, the teaching has always been exactly the same. Right. Then why is my brain hurting?

How's the weather over there, by the way?

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:06:37 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: The songbook has lots of odes to ..
Message:
His Implied Divinity. I suppose he just sat on that stage and let us all sing them to him, sat on that chair and lets them still kiss his feet, just because that is what a nice guy he is. grrrrrrr.... And, if he didn't mind the implications then why did the damned lyrics change in the 90's???????????
Know what's worst about my questions? I know what M's devotees/students/supporters will give as an answer even as I ask.
What a crock of shit.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:23:50 (GMT)
From: Rick W
Email: rbw@indra.com
To: Selene
Subject: The songbook has lots of odes to ..
Message:
As I mentioned elsewhere, I was thrown out of multiple knowldege sessions by Mahatma Fakirananda because I didn't raise my hand when he asked if I believe GMJ is God. That was most certainly a requirement at the time 1971 for receiving K. How can anybody believe m's revisionism of his own history? Amazing!
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:01:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Rick W
Subject: eesh Fake irrinand
Message:
I knew a premie who was so proud he received K from the most intense mahatma. Like it was a badge of courage or something. I think it shows good character on your part that he kept throwing you out :)

I had a really funny moment at work the other day. The gist is, this programmer guy who knows nothing about the cult was joking about this other person who received an award and he said it was because she was extremely pretty and all these guys helped her all the time.

What I remembered was she was a premie I knew fairly well and I remembered her glowing details about how it was all M's grace. You know the drill, take one step M takes a zillion.
It was **so** funny to hear this guy's interpretation.

Don't get me wrong I have been very 'lucky' at work as well and not above accepting the help, but.. the difference in the perspective was hilarious given how she would go on and on about giving M all the credit. Credit for what? Genes? Jeans? haha.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:16:17 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Jeans- LOL
Message:
Not a leaf moves without maharaji's will.

What a stupid belief to give power to him for our own capacities, qualities, personal graciousness,etc. He broke us in pieces and we were left to be back and forth following what he was talking at at that time. We look for him for EVERYTHING! He made us his puppets, always trying indirectly and some times directly to demolish our self-esteem. What a strange trip.

Nice to 'see' you laughing.:)

I made a mental visualization at a deep relaxation state that I was sending him back all the unusable 'stuff' he gifted me with, the darling... Try it. It helped me.

I wish I could have talked with you a little longer. The soon I hunged up I remebered I forgot to share few things with you. Next time. maybe I write later.

Is rainning cats and dogs here, and tornado warnings. :0

Take care, love to you,

SB

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:23:47 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Jeans- LOL agree!
Message:
Honestly SB I wish you could have been there to see me trying to hold back the laughter a bit.

Yeah i thought of some things I forgot to tell you as well.
Love you. Thanks for all the friendship laughs and support.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:31:15 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Jeans- LOL agree!
Message:
I love you too.

Acapulco will 'materialize'. The four of us? :)))

Chau.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:40:29 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Acapulco sounds great! 4 of us too (ot)
Message:
Just need a little time to learn how to spell it.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:01:09 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: janet
Subject: What a barefaced fucking liar!
Message:
Almost speechless. We now have more than enough evidence that Mr Rawat is beyond ANY moral scruples - and will NEVER own up to anything, let alone take responsibility for the consequences of past teachings and actions.

How can old premies stomach this crap without gagging? A pox on all your houses...

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:12:16 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What a barefaced fucking liar!
Message:
G'day Nige,
I can tell you how old premies can stomach this crap without gagging.As you know of course the amazing thing about being brainwashed is that you will stomach ANYTHING THAT IS TOLD TO YOU.Ater all people have suicided from being brainwashed by cults.I won't ever be surprised by what M says next and what all those die hard premies will go along with.Anything is possible.

Cheers Tony

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:43:21 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: What a barefaced fucking liar! yes you Rawat
Message:
Just liked the subject heading, wanted to repeat it! Yeah I reckon the premie's stomachs are getting queasy, they just follow their Master's lead and blame anything and everyone except Him.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:59:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I never claimed divinity with that woman...
Message:
Janet, Janet, Janet:

If having fellacio doesn't count as 'having sex,' then surely billing yourself as 'Lord of the Universe' can't necessarily be construed as claiming to be God. You need to learn to be precise nowadays, you know... say what you mean. Clearly, adopting the title 'Lord of the Universe' was just a devastatingly clever ironic jab, by a formerly servile colonist, intended to highlight the arrogance of the British former rulers of the subcontinent. It was an act of courageous Indian independence that we stoopeed Americains just missed entirely, as usual.

--Scott 'Prince of the Unbritish and the Welsh Rare Bits' T.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:50:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: At least the trains ran on time Scott. (nt)
Message:
choo choo
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:35:22 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Delicious Deconstructualism! (no textialism)
Message:
q
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:37:49 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: forum5god@yahoo.com
To: janet
Subject: To Janet - Your Press Kit Link post
Message:
Janet,

I've had to delete your press kit page post as it wasn't displaying. We've had this problem before. Could you please write to the FA mailbox and let me know what html you put in the post, if you can remember?

Thanks,

Forum Admin

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:01:04 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: i think i know why it wouldnt link-its intranet
Message:
i think the whole site is locked inside an intranet firewall for subscribers only. at some point when i was waiting for a link to jump[ to the next page, i saw that the server
EV is on now is called safeserver dot com. i could read the pages when they came in on the screen, and could lift the urls from any one of them, but when i went to post a feedback to them, their cgi form to email wouldnt go thru,. i had to ccp my text from their input window and them try clicking on any place i could find on the site for email or contact, and finally one of them took me back to my own email program with their address already inserted in the header line. i spit out the copy there and mailed them from my own email function, since their ' safe server' worked so well that i couldnt use their own inhouse feedback page to speak to them.

it is possible to get to the page if you have a subscription to the email newsletter. you use the link in the margin of the newletter that says 'email' and it would take you into the EV site, and from there the bottom of every page has links to other pages. one of those bottom of the page links says press kit, and from there you can find the FAQ's.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:05:08 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: I love this line
Message:
'This is one of those bizarre things. When people saw me at that time, they really didn't understand what it was all about.'

So please enlighten us oh great lardy one. Because I really don't understand if you say you never said or even hinted that you were God. Can you please tell me what all that dressing up as Krishna was all about.

Thanks Janet, for bring that quote to our attention. It never cease to amaze me how stupid m thinks everybody is.

love Kev

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:47:42 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: What a lyin' sack of SH*T!!! Yes, you Maharaji
Message:
Hi janet,

This is an important issue to keep bringing foward, thanks.

Guru Maharaj Ji, you are a mutherfucker, a liar, a conman, a betrayer. You have absolutely no conscience. NONE.

Your organization, Evilan Vital, man, it just shows what a cult will do to someone! You've made your premies into liars, too! And we all know it!

What about the ''Knowledge Vows''...oh my Guru Maharaj Ji, I surrender my life to you. I didn't get the K-Lite ''give peace a chance'' version. Nope. It was very clear you wanted us to believe you are: You Know Who!

What about the premies who moved into the ashcans? Was that so we could live a normal life? You idiot! What about Arti? Yes, we made it all up because we were confused westerners!

Maharaji, you are soooo pathetic!

What about Big D 'Darshan,' huh, Maharaji? You just gave a toe kissing contribution event in Australia, and the premies also sang Arti, too.

What about EVERYONE having altars to you, you, you guru-prick, bowing down to your picture, to empty chairs? ''Guru is greater than God'' You said it, Maharaji, not US!

Maharaji, you are beyond my comprehension because I now have come to believe you are worse than a leech. I can say ''have you no shame' but the answer is no, you don't. You have no shame because you have no conscience, no sense of humanity. You are sub-human. A master? You are a joke, Maharaji. You don't qualify to be called anything but a lying loser, someone who puts themself before innocent children, before anyone. You have no SHAME Maharaji because you are shameless! Btw, Maharaji, that's not a good thing.

What about all the years so many premies wasted on you, because YOU told us who you were. I heard you with my ears, and it was programmed into me by your request!

You are a lying son-of-a-bitch!

Phew, that felt good. Man, does that creep piss me off!

btw, my computer crashed and I was offline all last week. Good to be back!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:55:38 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: What a lyin' sack of SH*T!!! Yes, you Maharaji
Message:
Hi Cynthia,
I reckon the shithead will keep lying and denying more and more as time goes on.After all he has got a lot to protect,and he knows this guru caper is a great moneyspinner.It would appear that his whole family(minus Amar) is in on it as well.Money does corrupt so they say.I don't know I have never been rich.26 years of being a devotee does'nt lead to being rich does it.
Anyway I hope you feel better after getting all that off your chest,it was all spot on.

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:34:47 (GMT)
From: Clark Kent
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: What a lyin' sack of SH*T!!! Yes, you Maharaji
Message:
Gee, I wonder why he called his son amar (rama bkwds) - holy crypto-nite super-dupe!
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:56:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: What a lyin' sack of SH*T!!! Yes, you Maharaji
Message:
Hi Cynthia
It does feel good to get that out doesn't it? I have to admit though, after my anger spell last week it also feels good to feel good! Just wanted to let you know i did read you post to me and really liked it, responded in inactive.
Computers, ugh don't get me going. Good luck!
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:36:54 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hi Selene...
Message:
I'm glad you're feeling better--I had a tough week last week, but not because of my computer.

I'm not steeped in anger today, I just like to blow off steam at the goober, just because he deserves it!

Does he really think we're stupid? What a loser.

Take care of yourself,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 18:57:37 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Give him a break ....
Message:
after all...he's only human :))

Yeah Janet ....he's trying to manipulate the true facts and shift the blame for his godship on to us poor suckers !

Did he have anything to do with that Millenium bullshit ? nah not him.

Did he ( and still does?) accept the words of Arti addressed to him ? nah not him.

Did he let people worship him and kiss his feet? nah not him.

Did he .....etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc ? nah not him.

It's all our fault. It's obvious ....us sick deluded westerners twisted his words and actions. He's an innocent master that's all.

Cheers

Dermot.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:24:36 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: a break? my pleasure! neck?nose?jaw?skull?spine?
Message:
hey i would be extremely generous and give him all the breaks i could think of. bring him to me and i;ll get right down to it. I think I'll start low and work my way up, so he can fully experience each break as i bestow it. I'll save the neck for very last, when he's screaming thru his wired jaw for release from the tremendous overload of feeling, within. it will be the height of mercy and the stroke of grace, that way. he will have just enough awareness left to know overwhelming gratitude for my gift, as he feels the pain finally stop.
reciprocity, y know? I believe in it wholeheartedly. what goes around. comes around-- and i can honestly say, all the big breaks in my life came from him. no question about it. every time there was a break, it was entirely because of him. i feel i should repay that. its only right i should return it to him in kind.
in fact, i think we all should. it just wouldnt be right not to.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 00:53:27 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is the light really the love of God?
Message:
I posted below about this subject in the middle of a thread, and it was really good for me, to say it, so I thought I might be good for someone to read it, or respond to it, or disagree with it or whatever. Feeling a bit postie right now. Maybe that's why he calls himself postie!

'I was rubbing my eyes yesterday, and I noticed that the cosmic doughnut appeared.

So I sat and looked at it -(actually I had rubbed so hard that I didn't have much choice!). I thought about how for 12 years I looked at this light and tried to believe that it was God, and that it was transmitting love to me. But really it's no more loving than a spotlight. It's some kind of natural phenomenon, and the divine or whatever is surely in it, but it isn't any more or less God than a traffic light.

I am very fond of the near-death experience research of Kenneth Ring, in particular as described in the mind-blowing book 'Lessons From the Light.' In reading the thousands of descriptions, from all cultures and religions and all parts of the world, by people who have had NDE's and seen light at the end of a review of their lives, the remarkable thing is that they describe how they feel that they are UNCONDITIONALLY LOVED by the light. It's not just a light, but a presence, a feeling. When I first read this stuff (Moody's earliest book) I was still a premie, and I felt chuffed that I was able to experience this loving light while still alive because I had 'the secret.' But I remember vaguely that it was also a drip, because in my meditation (and I did hours and hours and hours because I was sick and thought that would heal me) although I could project onto the light some of the feelings I had felt in a program towards MJ, and although I tried really hard to believe that I was experiencing the presence of God, I wasn't. Except when I was, which didn't have much to do with that particular technique. I still have experiences when I feel an alive, sacred presence in everything, which I might call an experience of the presence of God (in the right company, although I would NEVER say it on this forum!). But I feel sad that for so many years I was looking for 'God' in this one, very introverted, very separate-from-everything way, covered by a blanket, as though my incarnation into this place with all the other beings here was a big mistake and I just had to get BACK to the father or some such crap.'

Whaddaya think?

love Disculta Darling

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:20:30 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Is the light really the love of God?
Message:
Whaddaya think?
What I like about this kind of discussion is that one opinion is just a valid as the next. After I read your post for some reason I thought that when I take a dump the process of defecation sends some sort of signal to the brain to release dopamine or some natural feel-good hormone to facilitate and encourage this action. If our bodies can manufacture this experience for an every-day bodily function then what might be possible for the once-in-a-lifetime (usually) experience of dying.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:59:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Yep, dopamine for dumping and dying
Message:
Watching a peaceful death it almost seems as if euphoria happens but I have also seen a bad one. But I've had painful dumps too. Better eat a lot of chocolate and cheese on my death bed.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:27:06 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Is the light really the love of God?
Message:
Today, for the longest time I expressed here my disbelief and lack of conecction with 'anything', but now, I feel 'that' and I do not understand it, but I enjoy the felling. It brings so much of a serene loving feeling so real, taht I see makes Lard looks like a bozo.

I have no belief system at this time. I follow my 'instict'?

Love is real and when I feel it I feel totally complete and at times is so strong that tears of love fall down my cheeks. Am I having strange experiences? I don't know and I continue doing it because it makes me feel good. Period. I felt like this before meeting lard, BTW. Love starts at home.

Freedom feels good and he should worry because we are getting stronger. LOL

Love to you. I enjoyed much many of your posts and tahnk you for them. You are in the right track.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:04:28 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: I too have no belief system-follow my ''instinct''
Message:
Another great message, SB. Thanks.

If it isn't all about feeling strong and healthy and optimistic - then I don't know what it is all about. And whatever it is that makes you feel good and comfortable is the thing to do - meditation, socalled tantric sex, yoga, dancing, singing, clowning or creating.

It is impossible to really describe what goes on inside our minds and bodies to anyone else. So I don't try. But everyone knows if you're feeling fine because that's when you can give warmth and consideration and that' all that counts.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 17:28:19 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Is the light really the love of God?
Message:
When I received Knowledge I was instructed to rest my fingers very lightly on the eyelids, but as time passed I stopped even doing that, and instead just rested my fingers in the notches located along the eyebrows. If you run your fingers along the top of your eyesocket, just under the eyebrows, you'll find them easy enough. My initiator even told me that this is why God gave us these notches, so that we could place our fingers there while meditating (Uh, huh, yeah, sure).

Anyway, you won't see a blinding light meditating this way, but you won't inflict any pain on yourself, either. You can just gaze at whatever (you know, that favorite word of new agers, 'whatever'). Gazing at 'whatever' never did a heck of a lot for me. I certainly never felt loved by it.

Whatever.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 16:18:38 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: NDE and Susan Blackmore
Message:
Hi Disculta,

have you heard about or read psychologist Susan Blackmore?
She used to be a believer in out-of-body and near-death experiences - she had had such experiences herselves, but then became sceptic. She has written, in my opinion, quite intelligently about them. I'm afraid the light in the tunnel can be explained in strictly physiological terms - like, when your brain and visual nerves get too little oxygen, the 'outer' visual cells get dimmed first, and you get 'tunnel sight'.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:21:47 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Kaj
Subject: This makes sense to me
Message:
I had anaphylactic shock from a tick bite some years ago. My nde went on for hours and hours and hours. Some of the time I did go fully, can't remember a thing, unconscious. Most of the time I did have consciousness, and apart from the time that I was flatlining and not externally aware, though not unconscious, I did have limited external awareness. For instance, I was aware of the presence of the ambulance officers, who, I learned afterwards, had stayed in the room, but could not see them.

I experienced 'the feeling', I am inclined to consider it self love, it is the best explanation to fit my experiences so far. I got it out of the newsweek article on religion and the brain, where they said that the part of the brain that comprehends time and space is not functioning, so lacking the necessary input, you attribute your feeling, your inner voice, to a source other than yourself.

The reason I find this so compelling is the overwhelming numbers of people who 'hear the voice of God', and when sanity returns, the brain operates normally, they have no trouble in identifying the voice as their own inner voice.

You gotta remember that all these experiences are happening in association with trauma, either physical or psychological. I have gone back in my memory and have realised that all the top notch 'light and love' experiences I had as a premie occurred when I was traumatised. Eg: my K sessh, after Mahatma Adharanand got through talking (two days), which culminated with such choice phrases as 'Every breath that you take, that you are not remembering Holy Name, you are crucifying Christ', he revealed the techniques. The room was packed, he was wearing robes, he suddenly pointed to a few people, I was one of them, he indicated we should come closer and sit at his feet. He wanted us to meditate on 'Holy Name', (I was, somewhat anxiously, wondering if I had 'got it' at this time) and then over and over and over again, hammering it in, he said 'do you understand, do you understand'. Naturally, I flipped and had a most blissful, profound experience! Ah well, they do say health is wasted on the young.

At times of trauma, one can experience some pretty extraordinary feelings and 'more real than real' imagery. IMO, this is caused by one's own traumatic brain state. If I'm feeling blue, sometimes I find a spot to curl up in, I can reach deep inside and give myself a hug. If I do this, I experience the feeling of being hugged by someone who loves me and I 'see' golden light, very nice, doesn't last more than a minute or so, and I don't really like doing it, too destabilising, and pointless really.

Didn't mean to ramble on this far, time to hit the submit button, best regards, Lesley

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:04:10 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: This makes sense to me
Message:
Hi Lesley,

Everything you said rings true for me. Self love. Loving myself is something I could never understand nor comprehend. When I was a kid whenever I heard ''Love thy neighbor as thyself,'' I never grokked it. I got the love thy neighbor piece but had no concept of what 'loving myself meant.'

Then I joined the cult which mandated no love for myself and all love for m. It's taken me a long time to learn how to love myself, which I had to be taught. Isn't that so backwards?

I was talking with my youngest sister today--she's a wonderful mother to her two babies. She told me how her three year old daughter said to her ''Mama, I love me.''

It brought tears to my eyes and joy to my heart. How wonderful that such a little girl already knows how to love herself.

Btw, Lesley, you post wasn't too long at all. I got a lot from it, thanks.

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:50:37 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: self love
Message:
I have often observed in myself and others, that we will put up with shit for ages and ages, but when we see it being put on someone else, oh boy, finally, we fight. I kinda wonder about that.

I rather suspect that self love is inherent, and it is lovely to hear that a little girl is allowed to say I love me and not put down for it.

Thanks Cynthia, warm regards, Lesley

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:47:10 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Kaj
Subject: NDE and Susan Blackmore
Message:
There is a whole body of literature about negative NDEs, although they are a tiny proportion of the vast number of positive ones. It seems that some people really hold onto their hell-realms.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 17:08:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Kaj
Subject: evidence for this explanation?
Message:
What hard evidence is there for this explanation? Why would the 'outer' visual cells get dimmed first? I don't see why that would be the case.

The sort of experience that would result from this does not seem to correspond with descriptions of the 'light in the tunnel' that people report. I would think that often their eyes are already closed and they are indoors, so why a bright light? What if someone is in a dark room?

There is a lot more reported than just a 'light in the tunnel'.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:40:42 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: G
Subject: evidence for this explanation?
Message:
Hi,

I referred to these debunkers in my 'thank you' post below. It has been discussed very intelligently on both sides by Kenneth Ring and others.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 16:01:21 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: The jury's out.
Message:
Hi Katie,

I too had a blast of kaleidoscopic patterns the other night when I rubbed my eyes, and like you, saw it from a different perspective.

I was briefly talking to Sandy about God and told him, the strongest experience I've ever had in this area was when I took LSD. I was one of those people who used to trip and see God. I always used to view my meditation experiences in the same way, sort of tripping out on patterns and things. Although it never matched up to the acid.

Anyway, communicating with Sandy, I realised that I was basing my understanding of God on my acid trips. And maybe this isn't the most reliable source of sound material. On my acid trips I also saw time go backwards, and brought dead things briefly back to life. I also looked in the mirror and saw that I was Dennis the Menace from the Beano.

Maybe hallucinations aren't too reliable.

I'm coming full circle I think. I no longer have any answers. I feel more agnostic than believer.

All the bricks are up in the air. Life is full of uncertainty again and I like it.

Anth 'The Walls of this room are different from any before them.'

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:04:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The jury's out.
Message:
Hi,

I saw light in my head when I was a kid. Never thought about it until I was taught how to squeeze my eyeballs in 1976.

I, too, have no answers. I'm not an atheist, don't know if I'm agnostic, either.

I don't know if NDEs are spiritual in nature or a result of a neuro-physiological thing happening.

Lately, when I run into these questions, I try less and less to figure them out. When I die, I'll find out (maybe).

:)))

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:53:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Aims in life.
Message:
Yes Cynthia,

Something that occured to me a while ago was, 'Why am I struggling to merge with the infinite? I'll have eternity to merge after I die. Maybe I should forget about it and enjoy what is in front of me now, instead.'

Anth, the air that you breathe...

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:45:39 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The jury's out.
Message:
Uncertainty is a divine experience indeed.

I only tripped once, but it did change my life.

I think the real 'answer' that comes to me from this thread is the multiplicity of answers, which is kind of wonderful once you let go of having to have it be one way.

I still highly recommend the Kenneth Ring book, though. It ain't no woo woo airy fairy stuff, no not at all. Quite life-changing for me, mostly because of what it says about kindness.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:45:44 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: this moment is different than any before it....
Message:
Anth was saying this wall is different than any befor it so I thought i'd join in with some I.S.B. lyrics.

One light light that is one though the lamps be many.

You can never underestimate the power of kindness,

Much love & gratitude to you for being you,

C.g.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 14:16:52 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: What kids have seen and say
Message:
Recently I saw a TV show about the Near Death Experience, about how universal are the many details of that experience (dark tunnel, light at the end, being greeted by 'angels' or loved ones, etc.)

One of the debatable points in the show had to do with how human beings may be 'hardwired' for having this experience, that it is inducable by any number of alternate methods, and may not actually indicate an afterlife.

However, the people interviewed who had the NDE had absolutely no doubt whatsoever. They had profoundly transformative experiences, often colored with a moral upliftment, or improvement in their personal ethics, and so on. There was often a sense of cultural conditioning that characterized their experiences. That is, some were predisposed to be very Christian, or not, or other.

One of the interview researchers is a doctor who became interested in the unanimity and non-judgmental purity of the NDE of children. I don't recall his name.

One of the neatest things was the statement of a young child, who said, without any dogma or programmed explanation, that in his NDE he visited with 'the light that had good things in it'.

'Good things', hmmm. There is more to the light than the donut.

BTW, any thoughts about ketamine ( special K ), etc.?

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 15:47:01 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: NDE without the golden doughnut
Message:
My opinion is that situations where you're very near to death, or serious accident may be very uplifting.

The fact that you see light or whatever has nothing to do with it. You can actually have an horrible experience when you're near to death, happened to me a couple of time, because the situation was extremely frightening, and then felt very good after the stress was over !

Of course the people talking about these 'famous' so-called NDE are the people who had them, because you've been looking for the people who've had THAT sort of NDE.

And you may also see the light and many other 'wonderful' stuff, and feel horrible, bad, having a horrible time. Those are never mentioned in the statistics !!

And what about the people who've had other types of NDE ?

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 18:31:29 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel or anyone
Subject: NDE Pos - Neg. experiences / Al Spooner
Message:
No doubt there are a billion variations of NDE, and no doubt many people have had 'close calls' and NOT had the by-now-classic experience. But I do find intriguing the similarity of the essential details of NDE as reported, being quite independent from the cultural baggage, although maybe most folks need to use their cultural familiars to comfortably describe the experience. In any case, most said that they now had no fear whatsoever of death, that the light and the stupendous love they felt 'there' answered any doubt and removed all fear.

That TV show I mentioned also featured people who had negative, hellish and frightening experiences. Who knows how much is projection, or how much isn't. But even the folks who had a frightening time of it also came back humbled, with a sense of awe at their experience, and were transformed by it.

So who knows? We'll all find out something about it, one day or another, soon enough.

I just remembered Al Spooner, a British trumpet player in Blue Aquarius, who had one lung and cronic emphysema or asthma, with an enlarged heart and the characteristically enlarged rib cage. He was always very short of breath (but still a fine trumpet player, can you believe it?).

One day he had a severe attack and actually 'died' for a short while, ambulance came, the whole bit, but he came back. (This was in California at Camp Joan Meier ca. 1974 -- any Blue Aquarians remember this event?)

He was profoundly moved and changed. He'd had attacks before, but nothing like this. He kept saying that, yes, he 'went into the light' but 'it was the feeling, man, the incredible feeling'. He kept talking about experiencing so much love, unlike anything he'd ever experienced before. He was convinced he'd been to the 'other side' and he was very convincing. He was a changed man, beaming but fundamentally humbled, and he was a humble guy to start with. The whole thing resonated way beyond any typical doctrinaire 'satsang.'

He did die a year or two after this, I believe. Old Al, great guy, wry sense of humor, terrific smile. Anyone remember him? He was somewhat older than most of us, probably late 40s, early 50s at that time.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 13:44:20 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Real light vs. the golden doughnut
Message:
Hey Disculta -
I've only seen what I would consider to be REAL light once, and it definitely WAS completely accepting, loving, and compassionate. I didn't have to concentrate on it, project, or label it to make it so, either - it just was. This happened 29 years ago, and I can still recall it like it happened yesterday.
On the other hand, the doughnut, and other manifestations of the light technique as taught by M, seemed to be just superficial visual phenomena. I don't care if I ever see another doughnut again :).

Love to you -
Katie

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 09:19:21 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: ok to enjoy Your Light w/o concepts or miragey (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 10:29:32 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: oh you turning out to be slippery like a fish
Message:
Why it is, everytime I want to e-mail you, outlook chuck a mental?
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 18:56:58 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: email test run worked;gotta spray for ants now (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 02:36:20 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Light? What light?
Message:
Oh that light. The do-nut comes out everytime you push your eyes in. It is the blood rushing in.

As for the real do-nut, vel, das isht a very long story.

To summarize, it doesn't meant a flying monkey if you see it or not. There are no answers because there are no questions. It's a conspiracy me dear put up by all them Indian guru that mis-read the signs because their minds are as big as that of an ant. There is no quest or enlightenment, it's all zilch.

Hope that will help you:)

p.s. good to see you here. and don't take notice of the forum bobo (you know what I mean),

Have fun,

Salam

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 01:34:10 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: like a traffic light.
Message:
I think the light from the 'second technique' is like all the other sensations of light that we have. It does provide something simple to focus on, something like staring at a candle but simpler, but Rawat bills it as the Light of God, fundamentally different than all other sensations of light. The evidence suggests otherwise. Rawat changed the technique so there is less pressure, but even lightly putting your fingers on your eyelids is some pressure. See phosphene. My guess is that the increased pressure in the eyeball due to pressure on the eyeball (sounds reasonable) causes a structural change in some light-sensitive pigments, the same structural change caused by light particles hitting them, this then sends nerve impulses signaling physical light. I think the little bit of light that I see without pressing is triggered by residual activity in the optic center of the brain. Sometimes I did experience something like 'the light (in a different sense) of awareness', but it was nothing like the induced light and I don't think that happened because I was touching my eyelids.
I think that avoiding life in an attempt to get 'BACK to the father' is detrimental escapism, it's like having a drug addiction. Yes, life is often tough, but I still love being alive, I don't think it is a 'mistake'.
Using meditation, yoga, or whatever to get equinimity can be helpful, but that is quite different than hearing a little sound or seeing a little light and thinking it is God. I remember my embarrassment years ago when trying to do propaganda. I talked about hearing sounds like crickets, her reply was 'You think that God sounds like crickets?' I should have asked her out on a date instead.


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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 10:20:24 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: G
Subject: like,yellow means: slow down vehicle to a stop
Message:
Instead, nowadays people play the game of speeding up during the yellow light and trying to make it through the intersection before it turns red! Rushing, rushing, rushing - to where nobody knows, except death perhaps.

The yellow light is telling us to slow this vehicle down and come to a stop now. Constantly rushing and speeding recklessly may only cause damage at the neural intersections, too.

Scurrying, hoarding, desiring, worrying in duality/separation - still the very scourges of so-called civilization.

So, regardless of cult hangovers or apparitions, let's never forget to just stop and smell the roses. I have some lovely golden roses that just bloomed last week, for example. The flowers, hedges, rhodies, and azaleas provide such calm and pleasure in their splendid natural beauty. Artists strive to recapture that magic in watercolors, oils and pastels, and photos may speak 1000 words - but no replication or explanation is sufficient or equivalent to the rose itself.

Perhaps to attach old or new polarized presumptions or concepts to one's personal inner experience may not necessarily be a good thing. It may falsely prejudge or stereotype something real which is neither the cult hype nor the supposition of our fairly primitive terrestrial material science.

I sing the body electric - there is a light that shines within every being that exists, regardless of pressing eyeballs or not. For me, a light exists which has shone me the way through darkness in this life - ever since I was a child. Before contact with cults, before exes, before the layered complications of mind and conceptual hexes. That is the true light for me. For others, I can not speak; perhaps they know not that light, or in the same manner or intensity. [That is no matter for idle debate, of course, but rather shall remain a relative and subjective mystery.] However, I personally would not accept any substitutes. And a dictionary is sometimes useful, for it may explain some words - with yet more words, but those words are clearly not the authority or measure of any inner experience I have had. Tashi delek.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 15:25:50 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: such
Subject: You are the light
Message:
...all you brilliant posters. Thanks to all of you for bringing me a giggle and a flutter to the heart this morning!

Carl: don't know about ketamine
Katie: yes, I agree
G: Yes!
Salam: hehehehehe - thanks for the deep thoughts
Such: Yes, indeed, I'm not throwing out the baby with the bathwater, just drying her off a bit more.
Scott T: haven't read your post yet

May the light shine!

Re the NDEs, and all the debunking that has been done, the Kenneth Ring work I mentioned is quite scientific. For example, they have a whole experiment on blind NDEers who are able to describe stuff on the roof of the hospital that they have never seen (such as an old sneaker someone threw up there). Personally I don't think NDEs are debunkable. Of course there are related structures of consciousness in the brain. The brain is an expression of consciousness, which precedes and outlives it. I think reductionism is sad sometimes, in an expanding universe.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 12:54:03 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Traffic (ot)
Message:
such:

Instead, nowadays people play the game of speeding up during the yellow light and trying to make it through the intersection before it turns red! Rushing, rushing, rushing - to where nobody knows, except death perhaps.

Around here, they're probably trying to arrive at an appointment on time. People have lives, and life projects, and they're important. The lights are overly long, and unsynchronized, which to me demonstrates a profound lack of regard for the clients for whom the transportation system is designed, as well as profound incompetence on the part of the designers. No wonder people try to beat the light, the designers have made it a contest.

By contrast, the design criteria as well as the skills employed in the upper midwest are quite different, and the tension experienced by drivers in traffic is a lot less. There ought to be some sort of law against bad design, or at least a way for the public to fire the designers. Things would change in northern Virginia very quickly, were that the case.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:07:28 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I pass lots of major intersection accidents (ot
Message:
oftentimes, the accident involves a young person in a pickup truck - not making the yellow in time and speeding through a red light, or swerving in front of someone in the wrong lane - crunching a smaller or lower car. I have also seen plenty of accidents caused by people trying to turn while yakking on their cell phones. Tests have repeatedly demonstrated that even professional drivers fail those basic cone obstacle driving tests when a cell phone is put into their hands.

Sure, traffic has exceeded the design capacity for many arterials and freeways, but the traffic volume also relates to urban migration patterns and jobs, transportation systems and personal choices, and US benign allowance of continued huge numbers of immigrants each year - which is steadily increasing the population much faster than the birth rate.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:13:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Traffic (still ot)
Message:
Such:

I know there are bad drivers, and immigration has been identified as a problem by some (though in reality it's a solution to the declining proportion of younger workers, at least in the US), but what I'm talking about is bad transportation design. Simply using feedback algorithms to adjust traffic flow, for instance, is technological innovation that could resolve a lot of the traffic problems. As for cell phones, make them illegal to use while driving. Allow the price of gasoline to reach it's natural level too, and most of the gashog SUVs that block visibility and represent a danger to other drivers will disappear. Start arresting people for speeding, or at least fine them. I can't think of any good reason not to jail someone driving 90 mph on a public road, unless they're responding to a life-threatening emergency.

But a system that employs punishment for behavior that arises predictably from bad design is like chopping off toes to make the shoe fit. It shouldn't be tolerated.

To whit: You have an appointment across town and have to leave enough time to arrive promptly. How do you decide when to leave, if stoplights aren't synchronized, last an average of 3 to 5 minutes, and there's no guarantee that waiting for one won't keep you from waiting for the next, and the next, and the next...? The fact that you can't predict when you'll arrive at a destination, within a 45 minute to 1 hour window, makes conducting in-person business enormously expensive. It ruins careers. It is not the delay, per se, that's the problem... but the inpredictability. The only people happy with such a system are people without jobs or obligations.

Public transit is no answer, either. Typical 'head times' on public transit are 30 minutes to an hour, so again the result is enormous unpredictability. (Head times refer to the span of time that you have to wait for the next transit, if you just miss this one. Anything more than 20 minutes is impractical for any serious or consistent use.) Time to fire some engineers in the Department of Transportation, appoint new managers, etc... but in fact there's no way to do that. Hence, we put up with a more or less constant mess.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 00:21:27 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: I hear traffic all day;sprawl,pollution w/o vision
Message:
Even in a recording studio, you get the rumble of trucks and trains sometimes. Cutting the trees, packing in the houses in side-by-side, cranking out those pesky guzzling trucks and SUVs.

Sure, we all want our cars, need to make our appts, etc. -- 'have it all' [just like the commercials]. And the US freeway system really is the legacy extension of the feds' Cold War 1950ish military connection system for heavy armored vehicles and trucks - in truth, that's what actually spawned the interstate freeways that criss-cross and interconnect N-S and E-W.

Yeah, wherever you travel - it seems like maybe some dumb premie civil engineers messed up on their 'sychronization' of the lights. [haha] Did you know that the new traffic lights cost about 100,000+ dollars apiece? I priced some for a local municipality. The ones with the video cameras that detect speeders running thru lights cost about 150,000+ dollars wholesale.

So, you premie engineers out there, like get your light technique and synchronization down better, ok, dudes?!! hehehohohaha 'Cause some folks have got gas to burn, and bucks to earn! 'Move it, buster, I'm late for my power lunch!' Beep, Beep, BEEP!!!

with that dufus dubya as prez and that flatout kickback crook Cheney as vp, looks like we may as well kiss clean air and alternative and recyclable energy sources bye-bye -- Texas oil style! After all, the lowly plebians got to pay up the yingyang to render unto Caesar...

Yep, we got the guru/evangelical Caesars, the lying monolithic tele-communications Caesars, and the military-industrial oligopoly Caesars - Earth is like Caesar's Palace - and the 99.9999% of the rest of us are the historical pawns and suckers in the perennial power see-saw of ignorant, genocidal blood and iron. Stupid, greedy homo sapiens is bent on extinction - dumb devolution of the species. Where do these dinosaurs come from, anyway?! If it's just a cycle of reincarnation of the total jerkoffs and incompetents in history, then we're really in trouble -- always have been and perhaps will be in this imperfect world where blind stupidity, selfishness, and insanity rule.

Frankly, I don't trust anyone who wants temporal power over others in this existence. It's like an infectious terminal disease. At least in the '60s a lot of people aspired to a vision of peace and cooperation and preservation of the earth. The problem was/is most people don't think deeply and find the answers for themselves, so they become susceptible to 'leaders.' Now, of course, it's the television-fed vulgarity of everyone for themselves in their lust for superficial and conspicuous consumption, materialism and gratification - and the heck with everybody else. The rat-race, indeed! rats, rawats, rats, and their brats...

Of course, American society was founded upon genocidal European greed and remains the product, model, and world leader of insatiable, wasteful, and exploitive greed, greed, greed. A thousand points of light, City on a Hill? - Nope - haha - Paradise LOST!

I must therefore defer to the wisdom of the Hopi elders and Lakota medicine men.

Oh well, I have wiped the urban dust from my feet and now shall retire to my humble cave.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 05:25:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Too much
Message:
such:

Pick a problem.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:21:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Too much
Message:
A fun and lucid post. And I agree!

Maybe yer not nuts after all...

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:46:23 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: That which is valuable to us
Message:
When we were premies we placed value on Maharaji in our lives and we placed value on the experiences we had from meditating. As a consequence of things Maharaji said, many of us subsequently placed less or no value on things that previously we valued more highly, such as our family, friends, interests. Since ceasing to place value on Maharaji, many of us once again value our families, friends and other interests more highly once again.

So the question arises as to what is this process of placing value on people, things, activities? And how is that it can be switched on and off as we have done with Maharaji and our families, friends and interests?

Value is clearly a very personal thing. What one person values may be of no value to another. But value appears to be subject to our belief systems. If we believe that life is meaningless, then it will be difficult to place value on any activity. If we believe that the meaning of life is the pursuit of personal pleasure, then we will place value on those things that give us pleasure. If we believe that nothing in this physical world is ultimately real, but that there is another world that is real, then we will place little value on the things of this world, and value those people, things and activities that will help us perceive and move towards that other world.

And if we believe that this world is real, and that meaning is found within our relationships to the people, things, and activities of this life, then we will give value to a wide spectrum of people, living things, ideas, feelings, art, activities, and everything else, that is, as they say, part of the rich tapestry of life.

I think there is a lot more to say on this idea of placing value, but as I don't like reading posts that are too long, I won't write one:-)

John.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 03:57:18 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Another thought provoking post from JHB
Message:
Thanks JHB for that. Meditation does seem to make us detached. this can be good in some ways but when it distances us from family & friends this can't be very good or productive. When we can truly love our family and not get involved in petty bickering that often takes place between family members (as far as I can see) we are going in a good direction.

C.G.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 05:04:31 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: The point is, it's our choice
Message:
I think that in spite of all the environmental, and possibly genetic, influences, I still think it's our own choice as to where we place value. We chose to believe Maharaji's words, and now we choose not to. Premies who still believe Maharaji, in spite of the evidence that he's a blatant liar, do so as a matter of choice. Freedom is a pretty powerful thing!

John.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 23:35:30 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: JHB
Subject: That which is valuable to us
Message:
You have hit the nail on the head John.We were conned or allowed ourselves to be conned into narrowing our world view to the detriment of ourselves and our loved ones primarily and by extension all the other people we had dealings with. VIVA the Rich Tapestry.
Best
Tim
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 19:19:27 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: That which is valuable to us
Message:
In India I once heard a satsang from a jnana yoga oriented mahatma that k. is basically not moral. It is a tool for detachment from this world, to reach enlightenment in the classic hundu/ buddist tradition,according to him.
It can also be used to fuzz out suffering, and thus prevent any learning from experience.
It can even be used for committing the most terrible atrocities, while still being cool.
According to this mahatma the whole bakti/devotional stuff was just to prevent people from drifting off like that, and use the guidance of a true master to retain normalcy while on the spiritual path. (truly a very different story with rawat who is utterly incapable and corrupted to be able to do this)

This whole way of thinking was flawed since prehistoric times, when krishna encouraged Arjuna to slaughter a whole tribe, and use meditation and bhakti to remain 'pure'.

I think I pass for that kind of 'purity'.

Real values build up by real life interaction I think, and by taking the world and the people serious. That way any misconceptions will be corrected, by feedback if one is willing to grow and learn.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 00:15:05 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Sorrow of Arjuna: he killed his own relatives (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 15:56:21 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: such
Subject: how canyou just toss this upwith no text?!?!
Message:
if you're going to make a comment like killing your own relatives, have the respect to at least elucidate what you see about it! to just make a cheap shot and leave it is raw. !!!
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:26:54 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: it's a 'literary reference': Gita, Title-chapter 1
Message:
It's a 'literary reference': the Title of chapter 1 of the Bhagavad Gita: The Sorrow of Arjuna.

Easy does it, Janet. Gosh! I was actually 'elucidating' succinctly on the 'slaughter' mentioned obscurely in the post I was responding to. The first reference did not mention that Arjuna was in agony over the option Krishna gave him - which meant killing his own relatives, using the Yoga of Knowledge in the name of Karma Yoga. Hence the title: The Sorrow of Arjuna.

A genuine informed understanding of the Gita is key to fully deciphering and debunking the whole mystic framework of the Rawat rugu juju.

Speaking of people killing relatives, millions of kids are killed by their moms each year. The number 1 most likely person to murder a child is not dada -- but Mommy Dearest. 'Course the radical gender feminists [like misandroist Tess Wiseheart who fabricated the Super Bowl Sunday abuse BS, as documented by Princeton Prof. Somers in her book 'Who Killed Feminism?'] don't like this government statistic made known. And the second most likely person to kill a kid is a single mom's boyfriend or acquaintance. That's the plight of countless fatherless families -- and the social results are clearly evident among most of the young gangbangers roaming the urban battlegrounds. I used to work with hundreds of inner-city kids dealing with that social environment.

My ex and her rich fam legally stole the kid when I was in the cult, so I tried to help other kids. Also...

Frankly, as a person who was regularly brutalized until I finally left home, I know whereof I speak about parental violence and abuse - especially deranged monster moms who physically, verbally, and emotionally torture their own children. When confronted by a screaming mommy chasing a certain 9-year-old around the house with a carving knife - I remember the boy crying out, 'Mommy, mommy, Please Don't Kill Me!!' If that helpless desperate child had had the choice of being molested once versus being violently tortured THOUSANDS of times, I know what choice that kid would have made.

If you want to talk with me - quit the 'cheap shots' yourself, please. I don't post here just to blow air out of... Other survivors have borne their crosses, too.

I also don't have the time or inclination to post here all day. I have lots of work to do - and other people counting on me [even now as I am typing here]. And, quite honestly, I don't have to explain myself in detail to you or anyone else at FV, if the truth be known [although I generally sincerely try to anyway, just to be nice or polite]. Do I? No, I don't. So, next time, ask politely - or just read the thread and check out what I'm referring to, First - Yourself. What's your problem, anyway, Janet? (Still reacting [2 weeks later] to my disdain of whites casually using the n word?) Have a good night.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 11:28:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweazle.
Subject: Catweazle, come back and answer my questions.
Message:
Cat,

Down below, I thought we were just getting into a friendly chat, I asked you a couple of questions and you ran off.

I'll try again.

Tell me one meaningful, wise, insightful thing the Captain said at Amaroo.

And- did you line up, put some money in an envelope and then kiss his feet?

Did you Cat? Didya? Didtya? Didya? Didya?

(Any other disciples of the living Perfect Master feel free to answer too.)

Anth, wondering how much money Catweazle put in the envelope but too polite to ask.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:23:21 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Catweasel,come back so I can score points off you?
Message:
$1oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo and 5 cents.Ever seen a 40 acre envelope?
He said you had suffered the same fate as Ravaan - And yes, like a lot of people I chose to pay my respects to my master. He said to tell you 'It's spelt Catweasel!and to cut the bullshit' (The Ice thing was too much.) You are beginning to develop into a self rightuous pommy version of Charlston Heston aren't you?.Do you look good in a toga?
And this FA, have they ever heard of J.S.Mills? Talk about petty deleting
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:51:42 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Not a word of wisdom in 3000US worth of waffle?
Message:
So, I take it from your response, Captain Rawat didn't say anything wise, meaningful or insightful. Otherwise you would have told me right? If I'm wrong here Cat, you can always correct me and tell me what he said.

And yes, 'You paid your respects to your master.' Ha fucking ha. So you did slobber over his soggy socks. Why are you so touchy about admitting it? What's all this 'pay respects' bollocks. Just say it. You lined up with all the other campers, put some money in an envelope and kissed his feet. It was probably the highlight of the holiday for you wasn't it Cat? It's not like you to be so shy and coy all of a sudden.

So, how does all this foot kissing, square with the Captain's new image of just being a simple 'Teacher', and all this 'Hindu devotion' stuff being so far back in the past nobody will even talk about it anymore? Don't you see a bit of a contradiction in what's being presented to the public, and what you toe-kissers do when you get together where nobody can see you. What if we tell the new people about all this? Won't it blow your cover a bit?

I can't believe you admitted it. Surely you were told not to say anything about it Cat.

Anth still laughing, also can't believe you couldn't find three words of wisdom in $3000 worth of waffle. Looking forward to your response.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:48:02 (GMT)
From: Cw
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Edited by FA
Message:
[Evasive response from CW deleted - FA

CW - your conditions for posting here include that you attempt serious on-topic debate. That means if someone asks you a reasonable, cult-related question, then you should attempt an answer, say you don't know, or not respond]

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 08:40:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cw
Subject: See the Cat Dodge the Questions.
Message:
Catweazle, you're really a hoot. You've brightened up my day already. I hope you stick around for a bit. You're an excellent ambassador for Captain Rawat.

If I don't deserve an answer why did you bother answering me? Twice?

So, you can't convey a single word of the Captains wisdom. I must admit, I'm not surprised. At least old Christian tried, with those rambling, nonsensical bits of Hindu mythology, and come to think of it, that's probably an accurate portrayal. Did you read it?

So, were those socks very soggy by the time you got there? Would you describe that moment, when your lips smooched those cotton dishclothes, as the most beautiful moment of your life? (That's what I used to say when I was in the cult.)

Anth, 'Openuppa your heart to the Universe of Love, and He will fill you up.'

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 20:03:33 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: See the Cat Dodge the Questions.
Message:
Hi Anth, I hate to make paranoid, unsubstantiated assessments, but I am of the opinion that 'Christian Star' is the best sort of an answer to your questions that David will give you.

My reasons for this:
I had a distinct impression that 'Christian' was male, but he said he was female, just like 'Cerise'.

Christian presented as a distinct personality, and then just faded out, within a couple of posts, to the same hardboiled attitude of My Experience is Great, and That Is All I Care About, that David exemplifies.

As I understand it, David gets a kick out of fooling people with his papier mache personalities. I just don't understand this, what is he trying to prove, that we're gullible?, well duh.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:05:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: See the Cat Dodge the Questions.
Message:
Hi Lesley,

I was going to ask the FA to check if Christian had posted under any other names, but I couldn't be arsed.

Having been away from the forum for a while, I came back and saw Catweazle a bit like a rat in the pantry, so, for my sadistic entertainment, I thought I'd try to engage him in conversation. (I've tried before, and you can see what a hoot it is, before he finally runs away.)

He's a bit like a nervous monkey. He's curious to see what we're doing, but he's easy to frighten away. Sometimes, as in this thread, he can be coaxed back for a while.

But when the questions get too awkward, like, 'Think of something intelligent your master said.' he's outta here.

The interesting thing about Christian is he or she claims to have spoke to me at the last Cultfest I went to. Who are these 'friends ' speaking to me anonymously?

Why are they afraid to be themselves with me? What do they think I'm going to do? What are they scared of?

In fact, if any of my anonymous premie 'friends' are reading this, maybe you could enlighten me.

Anth, maybe it's something to do with light and darkness, or maybe it would just be a bad career move.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:39:03 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Delving into the depths of the weasel
Message:
Yeah, he is kinda cute, isn't he! I have to ask myself, which is more real, the kind sensitive man with a sense of humour, or the feral weasel with a poisonous bite!

I have watched premie friends duck for cover, rather than be exposed to close proximity to me, I have caused visceral shudders of horror. This has made me sad, and it has also made me see how vulnerable and incapable the practise of premiedom makes a person.

In the words of a friend, 'Honey, don't you know, black IS the new white!'

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:40:48 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Delving into the depths of the weasel
Message:
You really dont bother me Lesley. I think you are wasting your time;but then obviously so am I.I think it's clear that you have made no attempt to hide your identity. But seriously , how else would you expect them to respond to you.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:15:07 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Delving into the depths of the weasel
Message:
But seriously , how else would you expect them to respond to you. (sic)

How about 'Hi, we care about you, not your belief system.' And this fear of contact is occasioned not by anything Leslie might have said or done, but simply by the fact that she's no longer a subscriber. Perfectly admirable behavior, is that it? In fact, she shouldn't have expected anything else. I have a close friend who was an early confidante of L. Ron Hubbard. After publicly discussing his relationship, and disavowing Scientology he received death threats, and worse. Well, compared to that the premies' behavior was admirable, I guess... except that it differs only in degree, not in kind. It may be human, but it's hardly the 'There's just something radiant about you premies...' sort of material.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:29:38 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Edited by FA
Message:
[Evasive response from CW deleted - FA]
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:32:07 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Ah, Catweazle, you're back.
Message:
So I'm worth responding to again am I?

So let me get it straight, you could answer my questions, but you just don't want to, right?

The trouble is Cat, any neutral observer reading this thread would think that you couldn't really answer the questions at all, and you were just, say, dodging them.

Why don't you want to answer them Cat?

It's OK, you can tell me, I'm you pal (evil chuckle).

Anth, really enjoying talking to you.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 11:53:23 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Edited by FA
Message:
[Evasive response from CW deleted - FA]
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 21:09:22 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: W
Subject: Dud is right.
Message:
Look, bonehead, Anth merely asked you to provide one example of a worthy insight by the former-boylord-turned-ordinary-exceptional-human... not open every cell of your being to the dark forces... *His* motives aren't that relevant really, given that any decent argument could overcome the worst of motives under these conditions. What a twit. It ought to be a simple feat to perform. And no, the conclusion that you simply don't deem Anth (or anyone else who might be watching, including a raft of current premies) to be worthy of such a meager response is not the first thing that leaps into someone's mind, or the second, or the third... It's pretty unlikely really, given that you can't seem to shut up about anything else.

BTW, only the weasel part fits. You can drop the 'cat.'

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:58:19 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Dud is right.
Message:
Thanks Scott. That was wonderful insight. I'm always moved by the kindness and feeling you represent Scott...a regular Mother Theresa....
So I give you a long, exalted quote .Would that shut you up? Of course not! You'd in like a rat up a drainpipe. Crowing ,spitting and squelling
Fuck, I just cant remember.
Current Premies have no interest in seeing M quoted here. Who do you think you might be fooling?
So the Twitdud signs off.As Catweasel; and if you keep teasing me Scotty boy...........
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:54:38 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Dud is right.
Message:
Current Premies have no interest in seeing M quoted here. Who do you think you might be fooling?
So the Twitdud signs off.As Catweasel; and if you keep teasing me Scotty boy...........

Exhortations to kindness and threats, all in the same breath? Sure, try to shut be up missie. Let's hear something tangible about your Guru... something empirical. You're wrong if you think there aren't premies (and even exes) out there who are interested. No one is comfortable with the conclusion than someone might be *all bad*. The request is more along the lines of 'Well, that's odd. Not a single saving grace. Not exactly cause for celebration.'

But what the heck, they're also interested in what you *don't* say. On one side we have the evidence of Dettmers and other fairly credible witnesses concerning Maharji's rather breathtaking lack of character, and on the other we have your... nonanswer. Not even silence, but a rather loud raucus nonanswer at that, full of verbal flourishes that only make the lack of substance more obvious. You're a clever girl.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 03:06:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Dud is right. Did the darshan wear off already?
Message:
You ask for it, Victoria. I so want to be nice to you and then bang I join in the let's insult the weasel festival. Why are you here? Are you so masochistic?

Nope, I think you're having as much fun as I am. Sure people are soemtimes cold and rude to one another but most of the time it's a little cyber party. Beats partying with the church ladies anyday doesn't it. And you know you love the irreverence too.

How's that leash wround your neck tied to the master. Bow wow worship and adore. Boring and he's a silly fibber.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:55:20 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: edited by CW
Message:
Now Pat, you know that I would never wear a collar let alone be leashed!!Does FA stand for Fuck All? You have forgotten . It's an everyday thing. Try just focusing on that not the funky folk you met along the way.I'll bet you you dont mind a leash with a diamond collar ARF ARF ARF
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:54:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: You tickle my funny bone, Weasel Pie
Message:
You definitely sound stronger and happier and lighter and funnier since the foot kissing festival. I always liked your sense of humor as long as it wasn't too biting. I prefer to pull my punches just a little. But I think you're having as much fun here as I am.

I won't criticize you're choices too harshly as long as you keep with this new easygoing non-dogmatic incarnation of yours. And really I have no beef with you. I simply question the need for guruism and prefer getting high with a little help from my friends some of whom are church ladies but they know it and take it light-heartedly and with humor.

But I've always hung with the mavericks anyway. I understand your disdain for having to explain yourself. I also believe that I owe no-one any explanation....unless I enter into a discussion....then I'm fair game. You too. But it was nice to hear that you don't have a religious belief system. We're it so we may as well make the most of it.

Oh I do have a beef with you. You don't tell anybody anything about yourself. To me the OT stuff about people beats the Baby Throwing Festivals any day.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 14:46:13 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: That's an interesting thought Pat
Message:
No Pat, were people taking the piss out of me? Oh my God!
I'm shocked!
I've told you about Victoria . Jesus Pat, thats personal.
I tell you one thing , I just love the fringe premie image I get tagged with.....makes me feel like I'm in the movie 'Oklahhoma'! Are you FA for a day Mr Pat? Why is this one censoring all my most humorous posts? Canadian?
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 14:19:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Still no answers.
Message:
Well to be fair Weazle,

you did answer one of my questions.

Now, you say I'm a slimey little ferret, (actually I'm a big furry mammal, like you) and I wouldn't respect the integrity of your answers, so you're not going to answer my points.

Well why are you responding to my questions anyway Cat? I mean, do you think anyone respects the integrity of someone who refuses to answer straightforward questions?

And why do you see a simple conversation as a point-scoring competition?

And when I asked, 'Have you ever been wrong about anything in your life?', in what way wouldn't I respect the integrity of a straightforward answer.

Here's one you can give me a straight 'Yes', or 'No' on Cat. I promise not to take the piss out of your reply. Honest.

Do you believe that Guru is greater than God?

Anth the sincere seeker of truth.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 14:56:43 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
To: AJW
Subject: Edited by FA
Message:
[Evasive response from CW deleted - FA]
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:45:31 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: The Spanish inquistion? In Putney?.
Message:
Hi Cat,

So, you don't believe Guru is Greater than God.

Maybe I can persuade you.

God gave you five senses, but Guru gave you the means to go beyond them, to the source of perfect peace.

Wavering yet?

Anth playing the Lord's advocate.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:04:16 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweazle
Subject: Alas Cat Gorra Go.
Message:
Cat,

I've got to go offline for a while again, pursuing my career as an international jet-setter.

So, unfortunately I won't be able to continue our conversation. I was looking forward to persuading you that Guru was greater than God, but maybe we can continue the theme when I get back.

Also, if you do come up with any wisdom from the Captain, save it for me.

Anyway, it's been fun talking to you.

Don't you go changin' now.

Anth and the Magitones.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 23:40:48 (GMT)
From: A monkey's uncle
Email: None
To: Cw
Subject: Tch, tch
Message:
Of course you are assuming that Anth doesn't know diddly squat. He in fact loves to squirm in diddly squat. Or is that squirt in diddly twat? And if he's your Auntie, I'm a monkey's uncle and you're our l'il bastard nephew.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 20:50:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Ah, but you wouldn't understand it, anyway, Anth
Message:
The thing is - and this is certainly why the Cat hesitates before plunging headlong into a breathy quote-by-quote review ('and M was just so beautiful it was like the words didn't matter, just the way he smiled...')- only people with 'that undersatnding' can hope to understand one of M's addresses and what M means by phrases like 'that understanding', 'this life', 'that breath', 'these fags', 'those condoms'...

For only when we already HAVE that understanding can we even BEGIN to understand the true meaning of understand. Or something.

Nige the just realised where he went wrong.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 05:11:05 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: That's Cat to you!
To: Nigel
Subject: Why do you want to know anyway?
Message:
It's much simpler than that Nige. I simply have no desire to tell you.
Anyway I thought you had ditched it all . Why on earth would you want to know about any of it? On another matter of mutual interest;
Gnat's piss to me would seem to be a very valuable commodity. How would you collect it and how many Gnats would you need to contribute to a two dozen slab? Have you thought this through? Or were you too scared to say 'CAT'S PISS' ????
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 21:47:19 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yeah, but somebody might Nige'.
Message:
It's funny though, when you try to sum up what the Captain says, it always comes out as inane crap. Other mythological figures didn't seem to have that problem.

Captains message comes down to, 'Do what I say and worship me.' Doing what he says is doing his yoga techniques, watching lots of videos, going to see him, and handing over lots of dosh.

Yuk.

Anth the cynical materialist demon.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 21:54:44 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Nottingham
Message:
Anth,

I forgot to tell you when we were discussing the secret Nottingham infiltration mission, that I've got the helicopter drop organised. Latvian Secret Service agents will pick me up here and drop me by parachute on the Nottingham ice rink roof. Our womon on the inside will open the roof door, and the leaflet drop will be synchronised with his Greedship's entry on stage.

Did you remember the scuba kit?

John the conspiritor.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:02:06 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Scuba kit and candles.
Message:
Yes mate, and the four thousand candles we're going to light under the ice, a couple of hours before the show.

We'll see if Jesus can still walk on water.

Anth, you won't recognise me, I'll be in drag, ... hang on, of course you will John, my Latvian accent will give me away, (I know its not PC, but there's no such thing as an Ex-premie accent)

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:10:14 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Skating on thin ice
Message:
It's a good job this is a private conversation. God, if EV found out we have perfected Rishi powers, our plans could be compromised. I now need to focus on all 36 trillion gods within so that I can return to England with all 64k Rishi powers, so I will not be able to post here for sevral hours.

Hope the levitation and thunderbolts aren't freaking out the locals.

John the rishirishitashi

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:51:49 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: a dog licks the hand of the master who beats it.nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:43:00 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: JS who?
Message:
CW:

Some time you'll have to decipher the third person references in your posts for those of us who can't read minds. As for the name dropping, there was a fairly decent British actor named John Mills. He had a daughter named Haley who was a teen idol when I was a kid (began her career as 'Polyanna' and was also in my nephew's favorite movie, 'Parent Trap'), and had another daughter named Juliet who may or may not have had a middle name beginning with 'S'. Besides that a philosopher named John Stuart Mill established the modern expression of liberalism, but if that's who you mean then next time you drop the name you should also drop the 's,' or people may conclude you don't know what you're talking about.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 13:47:58 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: A story Maharaji told at Amaroo
Message:
Ah, thanks for the invitation, AJW. I didn't make it to Amaroo, but have seen several days' events (minus comedians and skits) via satellite broadcast. Here's my favorite story, what Maharaji said but in my words, that he told on April 26th. Actually, it's a couple of stories. Maharaji explained that in Indian stories, there are stories about stories about stories. This is one I never heard and made me think of you all here on ex-premie.org that are 'against' Maharaji. (Actually I heard another story yesterday from a movie about the Nazis that made me think of you all too, but I'll save that one for another post, coz I know you want to hear what the Guru said!

Well...in the time of Vishnu (Vishnu being like an incarnation of an aspect of God as the Sustainer), Vishnu went to take a nap. He had security, and he told the person guarding his room, 'Don't wake me up. I'm going to take a nap.'

Well, then three rishis came to see Vishnu. Now rishis are not spiritual people, but rather they are accomplished people. They have mastered some very difficult things and have special powers. Because of this, the have huuuuuuge egos. Really, really big egos. So, they come to see Vishnu but get stopped by the guard. He won't let them in.

And the rishis are like, 'But we've come all this way to see him and we DEMAND to see him. Let us in right now!' But the guard has been told by Vishnu not to wake him, so the guard refuses.

In retaliation, the rishis all cursed the guard (using the special powers they have as rishis) -- that for seven lifetimes this guard will be an enemy of Vishnu!

Well, the guard of course becomes very upset. I mean, after all he was just trying to do the right thing and honor Vishnu's wish not to be awoken, and now it seemed that the most terrible consequence has come of it! He goes to Vishnu and tells him his sad story, totally bummed. And Vishnu tells him, 'Don't worry. You will have to be my enemy for seven lifetimes. I can't change that. However, you will still be blessed because you will be totally obsessed with me. You will think of me constantly and always be in remembrance of me -- only you will just be thinking bad things.'

Maharaji went on to explain that this same guard was the character known as Ravan (or Ravana) in the Ramayana, who steals Sita from Lord Ram -- but also becomes liberated at death because he was always in remembrance of Ram. (I don't think Maharaji told this last part about Ravan being liberated at death; I'm just adding that because of my own understanding of what happens in the Ramayana.)

I really enjoyed this story, and I think it's really cute how so many here who say so many bad things about Maharaji seem to 'live and breathe' him daily. It's the thing that I like about it here. Such obsession with Maharaji is very enjoyable to me.

I read earlier that Jim Heller went to Amaroo and was going to post here about it. What happened? Hasn't he returned yet?

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 13:18:42 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: You need a different lens.
Message:
Chris:

I really enjoyed this story, and I think it's really cute how so many here who say so many bad things about Maharaji seem to 'live and breathe' him daily. It's the thing that I like about it here. Such obsession with Maharaji is very enjoyable to me.

In general, I find the off-topic conversations on the forum interesting. I think the guru is stultifyingly boring, and almost never post about him. I can't even bring myself to read Mike Dettmer's posts. I don't consider Maharaji my enemy. I don't consider him at all. I live in a place, and under circumstances, where enmity has consequences. It's not a video game. There is nothing about the guru that ever achieves, in my mind, the status of the guard in the story, let alone Vishnu.

--Scott

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:04:30 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: If this is wisdom, I'm a rishi's aunt.
Message:
First Christian, let me thank you for taking up my challenge to reproduce any words of Captain Rawat's wisdom from Amaroo.

Let's see if I've got it right.

Hindu mythological figure goes to sleep. Three people want to wake him up and curse the guard. Guard is superstitious, believes curse, tells mythological figure about it, mythological figure tells guard, 'For seven lifetimes you will be my enemy.' And later on the guard becomes a mythological figure himself, and kidnaps another mythological figure from Sri Lanka.

Am I missing something here Christian?

It doesn't sound like wisdom to me at all. What's the message? Whats' the point? It's just Hindu fairy stories.

Or maybe Catweazle got it right, you had to be there.

Anth the rishi's uncle.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:18:48 (GMT)
From: Bai Gosh Ji
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: By golly - Anth you are such a cynical plushy
Message:
Don't you remember that blissful story that the Born Lord of Yogis used to tell about the power of satsang? It is soo perfect that it brings watery tears down pouring off my miserable Hindu cheeks.

There once was a thief who stumbled across a group of premies all listening to their guru's blissful satsang.

The guru said so wisely and sagely and scientifically; ''Remember this - gods and godesses do not cast shadows and just one word of such infinite truth of pure satsang can set you free.''

Well, the thief was caught and imprisoned for stealing the princesses jewels. While he was in prison the princess decided to dress up like Durga Ji and ask the thief where he had hidden the jewels.

She went to the thief's cell dressed as Durga and said to him: ''I am Durga Ji and I can save you if you tell me where you have hidden my jewels.''

But the thief looked and saw that this godess had a shadow and knew that he was being tricked so he said nothing.

The moral of that blissful Hindu story is that the words of the living master can free you from being hoodwinkled by pretend goddesses. By golly - satsang is so true and blissful and too deep for cynical minds like yours to understand.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:29:07 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bai Gosh Ji
Subject: Reminds me of the furry frog in the well.
Message:
It was wearing a papier mache Krishna crown and thought it was Ruler of the Universe. All the other little frogs believed it, because none of them had been out of the well. Anyway, one day this frog in a dress, called Jim, lands in the water...

ah fuck it Bai-Ji, you had to be there.

Anth the furry reptile.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:38:41 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I sure hope your Jim in Amaroo post doesn't
Message:
disappear before he sees it. I'm just going to read it again. Beats the Sunday funnies. Now when are you going to invent a silly Hindu character? We could tell silly Hindu stories till the cows come home. Now about that furry frog....he finally ended up at the Folsom Street Fair being disciplined by the Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence. He especially liked the water-sports and golden showers.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:10:48 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: PS. Jim in Amaroo.
Message:
Christian,

I forgot to tell you about Jim in Amaroo. He did indeed go. We had a whip round to pay his ticket. He took a movie camera and filmed lots of stuff there.

The reason nobody spotted him was because he was in drag all the time. Thelma and I advised him on different outfits-what to wear in the darshan line etc.

It all went disasterously wrong. Jim got so blissed out being in the presence of a living mythological figure, he passed out. When he came round, he really thought he was a premie called Janine. One of the security guards fell in love with him, and they've gone off to the coast together to get to know each other better.

It will end in tears.

Anth, you heard it here first.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:20:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: PS. Jim in Amaroo. rofl rofl rofl NT
Message:
g
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 18:00:08 (GMT)
From: Bai Gosh Ji
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: By golly, Christian Ji, you are a holy Hindu!
Message:
Thank you for your blissful Indian stories. I myself am now living my fourth life as a sugary ladu addict because I was once a manmut in the time when Lord Krishna manifested as a cockroach in my wife's kitchen and I squashed him - by accident when I dropped my arti tray on him.

You said: ''I read earlier that Jim Heller went to Amaroo and was going to post here about it. What happened? Hasn't he returned yet?''

Yes, Mahatma Christian Ji, I wonder that same thing myself. Such a blissful fellow. His satsang can dispel twenty lifetimes of sorrow.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:06:10 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: A story Maharaji told
Message:
Do you believe that you have to be reborn again, have jesus in your heart?
do you believe that such a thing , what millions of more extreme christians base their life upon actually exists?
Or is it just a projection of their mind, a wishful thinking, complemented with their own genuine spirituality?
If you do believe you would turn away from rawat, because the bible doesn't like his kind very much.
If you do not believe their claim have you ever tried to compare notes with them, and seen that it is impossible to convince them because they think in circles?
Were is your own claim any different?

Just go to a dolphin show. Any one of them can give you more darshan than any guru ever can!

I have to eat my tuna salad now.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:37:48 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Oh am so
Message:
Fucking humbled and blissed out with your friggin fat indian cunt guru, am pissing myself.

Get fucked

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 15:45:03 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Jai Sat Chit Anand salam
Message:
Hi brother,

Good to see that you're 'in that place', in touch with your inner feelings and true self. Howz it going down there?

I hear that they lost money at Amaroo, and there will no more Cultfests there. I think they're going to sell it to pay the installments on the private jet or something. Heard anything about it down there?

I collected the money for that aeroplane you wanted to hire, but unfortunately this bloke showed up and...ah well, it's a long story. Anyway, they're going to let me home in a couple of weeks if I can pick out my wife from a line-up.

Anth can you loosen these straps please?

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:01:25 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: you in the slammer or somethin?
Message:
Who did that to me mate?

Am a bit out of it at present, to many thinks to worry about, so the maha is taking the back stage (I hope he stays there).

Bloody premies, all blissed out, and they are all incomprehensable and delerious, so there is no point of trying. It all gagagaga and 'practice' and shit, so as you see am keeping a low profile.

Anyway, am been doin some thinkin (with the weed that I have in my head), so there you go.

Looks like the maha is about to reveal himself as a dick head prick that drinks, smokes, has family problems and a bit of shafting on the side line (a man got to have a hobby). So when the shit really hits the fan he will turn around and says 'I told you so'. In other words it's zilch, capote, no way. There won't be any blame except for those people that are in there 'mind' who tried to impose their way of thinking blah blah blah. Well you know what is the next addition to the FAQ will be.

I just wonder how many Indian devotees he will have if they knew what he does in privatly owned resturants pouring shampagne and pulling nostriel out of his rectum?

Hey you, stop squeezing Anth like. What did you say? Who you calling %$re45^&*. Take that and that and that you pommy bastar.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:45:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam you have a way with words
Message:
Am still laughing. I felt the same way a few days ago about his most holeeeeiness. Thanks for the other msg. too by the way.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 02:27:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: you're welcome
Message:
Haven't been following what's here, so I don't know if this fellow is trying to be sarcastic or what. Anyway I said what I said because I always hated those stupid mindless stories about some shit heads that lived in caves thousands of years ago.

How about if I tell you some story about how 'Hamourabi' (Hamo who?) got himself organised with the help of a some fish that came and gave him the 'laws'?

I also hate listing to third generation gossip about fatty. This puffta must be a premie or some other wanker that is finding it very amuzing to be here.

Changing the subject, you make shore (typo) that you have sun lotion on. Now run along and be a good girl :)

love you, hate morning stars and gurus

Salam

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:13:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Rawat claims to be the Sustainer
Message:
That's the hidden claim that Rawat is making in this fictional story, but of course he won't come out and say it because it's false. Now you are suggesting that Rawat is the Sustainer. Do you really think that this guy is sustaining everything?

'However, you will still be blessed because you will be totally obsessed with me. You will think of me constantly and always be in remembrance of me -- only you will just be thinking bad things.'

Sorry Rawat, none of that is true.

This goes to show how much of an egomaniac Rawat is. Just because some people oppose what he is doing, he thinks they are 'totally obsessed' and 'constantly' thinking about him, and that just thinking about him 'blesses' people. Then he throws in a vague reference to Jesus with 'in remembrance of me', as if to imply he's the messiah. Then he says 'bad things', as if pointing out his faults is a 'bad thing'. Hey, don't shoot the messenger. Rawat himself pointed out one of his own faults, his watch co$$ecting, which he described as 'a bad habit'. We're just being more thorough.

'for seven lifetimes'

So is Rawat back to saying there is reincarnation? Can't he make up his mind? First it's reincarnation, then 'in my opion, no', then 'something continues', then 'I don't know', then 'it all ends', now it's back to reincarnation.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:46:43 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: cw and cristian star
Subject: Rawat claims to be the Sustainer
Message:
We are not that obsessed. You would be surprised how much time and energy you get once you shed the dilusion that rawat has anything at all to do with spirituality, love or experience.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 14:56:33 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: christian star /story reteller
Message:
I admire your development ,probably following m. for years .

To become just a little indian stories reteller, that has
lost any own point of view, caught in an indian believe-system
(vishnu, pefect master,ravan...etc. bullshit), without even
recognizing that.

Poor guy.

I am sorry for you.

Toby

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:17:51 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: What you resist persists
Message:
... er, at least, I think that's what you're trying to tell us, Christian.

The thing about your post is that many of us here could have written it ourselves, when we were inside the whole belief system that said that MJ was the Lord. Your whole post holds that as an a priori assumption, and it's amazing to read that MJ is still hawking that particular storyline.

Christian, having been both in and out of this Lord thing (I was a fully devoted premie for 12 years, have been out for 17) I want to communicate that it's really, really different being on the outside of that belief system than being on the inside. It isn't just a matter of going into some opposing point of view. Most of us here have rather different viewpoints about lots of things (which is why we get quite contentious at times). The thing we have in common is that we are OUTSIDE the belief system that MJ is the Lord. From the outside, it just looks like a really limited and limiting little box to sit in, and many of us are very grateful that we have traded the smug security of the box for the freedom that is outside that box. From the inside, I know, I remember, that the belief system that MJ is Lord seems to extend forever in all directions. From the outside, again, it looks like a very limiting lens through which to experience real life, which is so richly textured, has so many dimensions of possible reality.

I certainly don't spend my waking life thinking about MJ, either negatively or positively. I come to this site because it is fun, sometimes, and because I have found that despite many years out of the cult (and it IS a cult, Christian!), there is still some programming lurking somewhere in my cells. It doesn't really pertain to MJ - he is about as important to me as a flea on an elephant's ass - just another person doing their thing. What IS important is the fact that through a gross abuse of power, this particular person had quite deleterious effects on my mental and physical health, and on that of other people. I'm interested in putting a little bit of my energy and insight towards helping heal some of these effects in myself and others, particularly people who are just on the edge of releasing themselves from what turns out to have been a restrictive bondage.

Still, one woman's bondage is another's thrilling B & D scenario. I know that before I felt it as a bondage, my involvement with MJ seemed to be 'the answer' and gave me an incredible (false) sense of security. Being with THE living Lord and being one of the few who has THE secret of enjoying life.

It turned out not to be true, that's all. Of course there is truth in everything, and I still do gentle practices based on breath awareness which nourish me a lot, and I still have a relationship with a higher power, or a sense of sacredness in life. In fact these experiences are enormously enhanced now that I'm not attributing them to someone outside myself.

Please feel free to keep on expressing what's true for you. I'm not in any way wanting to trade punches with you. I'm just responding because your post implied something about the posters here and why we post (i.e. obsession with MJ) that just isn't my reality, and I wanted to explain that.

In love, Katie Darling

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:46:21 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Katie, darling! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:48:08 (GMT)
From: Rick W
Email: rbw@indra.com
To: Disculta
Subject: Whatever happened to Mili?
Message:
He was always a great foil for Jim H's biting humor. Does he no longer like sparring with ex-premies? Did Jim finally piss him off one too many times?
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:06:49 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: insightful and compassionate.Thanks. (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 21:51:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Your posts are a breath of sanity Katie. (nt)
Message:
nothing today
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 21:24:00 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Premies!!! Read this and THINK!!!
Message:
Disculta very perceptively wrote:-

The thing about your post is that many of us here could have written it ourselves, when we were inside the whole belief system that said that MJ was the Lord. Your whole post holds that as an a priori assumption, and it's amazing to read that MJ is still hawking that particular storyline.

Christian, having been both in and out of this Lord thing (I was a fully devoted premie for 12 years, have been out for 17) I want to communicate that it's really, really different being on the outside of that belief system than being on the inside. It isn't just a matter of going into some opposing point of view. Most of us here have rather different viewpoints about lots of things (which is why we get quite contentious at times). The thing we have in common is that we are OUTSIDE the belief system that MJ is the Lord. From the outside, it just looks like a really limited and limiting little box to sit in, and many of us are very grateful that we have traded the smug security of the box for the freedom that is outside that box. From the inside, I know, I remember, that the belief system that MJ is Lord seems to extend forever in all directions. From the outside, again, it looks like a very limiting lens through which to experience real life, which is so richly textured, has so many dimensions of possible reality.

Premies, just try for one moment to think about this. We were in the belief system you hold so dear. We are now outside it, and we are revelling in the freedom, and we can also see how small and limiting Maharaji's belief system is. But don't take our word for it - find out for yourself!

John.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 20:38:11 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: What you resist persists
Message:
Amen, your Kawainess. A fine distinction for our Christian Star, who will one day be The Star, (or Lord/Lady) of his own Universe. Probably after fasting on hokey Hindu stories for 40 days.

Perhaps at some point you will start a post on the Abrahamic resists/persists thing. It will have GREAT value for the viewing public, on the going forward side of things. It is a healthy Belief System .

Hope to visit you and yours in Kawai one day.

Mark

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 15:37:41 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: so totally right on darling nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 16:34:53 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Yes, Fabulous Post, Disculta! (nt)
Message:
You said it so well!

Love,
Joy

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 20:52:43 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Go, Disculta, go!
Message:
It is most helpful to NOT paint any group with a broad brush and you have pointed out that we are a diverse amalgam of people. I particularly like the small box view of M's world. It's the Frog in the Well story spun around and told from the viewpoint of M's world being the tiny well and everything else being the ocean. The 'ocean' can be a huge scary place perhaps but not restricted and limited like M's 'well'.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:01:54 (GMT)
From: Narendereneth
Email: Naz234@hotmail.com
To: all h8ters of the Guru
Subject: No one else in the world can make u feel so great
Message:
Man, i dont believe all you saddos who slag Maharaji off!, I think you all suck big-time and you are so lost in your opinions of the Maharaji.
I was very shocked to find a web-site that slags off a person who spends almost every day of his life trying to help people experience the most valuable and precious element of this existence. I think you are a sad bunch of people who havent got anything better to do, there must be something seriously wrong in your lives to spend so much time trying to bring the good of this man down.
Thats all i want to say, apart from...
'Long live the Master and his teachings!',
Narendereneth.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 16:57:00 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Narendereneth
Subject: no one can 'make' you feel anything, dude.
Message:
lets start wit that.
point 2:
how long have you been in this?
me, 28 years.
were u there for the hindu years? the ashram years? did you renounce life and turn your back on it for the guru?
give up sex? drugs? relationships? abort any unborn babies for it?
did you abstain from eating meat, fish, eggs, liquor?
did you give away everything you ever owned and agree to cut off all your hair and wear funny clothes?
did you go out in the streets and stand in the way of complete strangers and make them hear your neverending prattle and force them to take a leaflet?
did you endure living on an overcrowded bus caravan for 2000 miles and a month of rallies and concerts, doing this, that ended with sleeping on the sticky, clammy concrete floor of a defunct coca cola factory, wrapped in a thin blanket and tormented by fire ants and being insistently awakened at dawn to sing a 30 verse song from memory to a picture and meditate for an hour, to prostrate yourself on whatever surface you were standing on,, to keep your tongue folded back behind your palate, to keep silence in that tortuous position all day, to meditate again when served your plate and not open your mouth to eat until your food was blessed by the infinite, to deliberately force yourself to submit to humiliating tasks for the sake of surrendering your ego and desires, to go out in your funny clothes and embarass yourself trying to obtain a job, so that you could hand your earnings over to someone else, to vacate that hard-sought job with no notice, when a program or festival was announced half a world away that you believed you would disinterate if you did not attend?

ever done any of this, dude?
every one of us , did.
that was the drill, man. that was the way. thats how it was laid on our heads. and we did it.

the guy telling us--yelling at us--to do this OR ELSE, we found out that from the age of 14, on, that guy was getting drunk every day, smoking marlboros, eating meat, fucking busty blonde babes, toking the ganja, buying 5000 dollar watches, wasting our money on trifles like gold toilets and lying thru his teeth to us.

dude!
would YOU keep on with a betrayer like that?
the guy is a CON, man! its all a racket. its a scam!
we did it all. we woke up. you don't understand where we've been with this, dude.

get wise, my friend. do some research. do some comparaitive shopping and get to know the marketplace. The picture is so much bigger than you're getting told by the sales rep.
caveat emptor, man.

its ALL advertising, brother. thats all it is. a hype to get your monayyyy.

it's all about the benjamins.
i donno bout choo, but if ben comes my way, he's stayin with ME. like he told me his own self--' a penny saved is a penny earned'
dig?

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:28:32 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: no one can 'make' you feel anything, dude.
Message:
Janet:

did you endure living on an overcrowded bus caravan for 2000 miles and a month of rallies and concerts, doing this, that ended with sleeping on the sticky, clammy concrete floor of a defunct coca cola factory, wrapped in a thin blanket and tormented by fire ants and being insistently awakened at dawn to sing a 30 verse song from memory to a picture and meditate for an hour, to prostrate yourself on whatever surface you were standing on,, to keep your tongue folded back behind your palate, to keep silence in that tortuous position all day, to meditate again when served your plate and not open your mouth to eat until your food was blessed by the infinite, to deliberately force yourself to submit to humiliating tasks for the sake of surrendering your ego and desires, to go out in your funny clothes and embarass yourself trying to obtain a job, so that you could hand your earnings over to someone else, to vacate that hard-sought job with no notice, when a program or festival was announced half a world away that you believed you would disinterate if you did not attend?

You know, I had completely forgotten that I did any of that. The overcrowded blue bus on the road to Miami, with hammocks and a roof deck, and claustrophobia in the desert, with Bob's brother-in-law walking around the bus yelling nonstop manic curses and pelting us with rocks... did you mention that? Heh.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 19:06:18 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Yeah janet - you said it!!!!!!! /nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 03:06:04 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Narendereneth
Subject: the problem.....
Message:
was we all encountered this guru who made this great promise..
we are angry because he was FAKE!
We got knowledge, meditated, followed agyas and we ended up less free, poorer,and confused.

Now how do you think this is possible??????

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 23:30:20 (GMT)
From: Bai Ghosh Ji
Email: None
To: Narendereneth
Subject: By golly, Mahatama Neanderthal, you are so brave
Message:
to criticize these horrible manmuts here. They surely will fry for 3,000 laks of lifetimes in the most abominable hells reserved for those who do not see the perfect living Master and his wonderful tests of out faith by running over Hindus and doing the old yabyum with blondes in Maibooze.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 23:24:17 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Narendereneth
Subject: No one else in the world can make u feel so great
Message:
Just sent you an Email at your address but it was returned. If you like send me the definitive address.
Best
Tim
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:21:21 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: The Nered Neran
Subject: Why are you trying to confuse us by..
Message:
..spelling your name backwards ?

I know your sort , ha !

You should do the gentlemanly thing & retire to your library with a stiff whiskey & a pistol .

Disgusted of Stratford-Upon-Avon .

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 22:15:45 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Narendereneth
Subject: Yes - you can
Message:
Just try it, and stop depending or your fraudulent master.

John

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 02:47:37 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: so the door is open now for a lawsuit it appears
Message:
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Been There
Subject: Fraud lawsuit againt Moonies by former members
Message:
Been There: The legal decision you mentioned is Molko V. Holy Spirit Association, 46 Cal.3d 1092 (1988), a decision by the California Supreme Court concerning whether former Moonies could sue the Unification Church for fraudulently inducing them to join the cult, for intentional infliction of emotional distress based on the fraudulent and deceptive cult behavior, and for false imprisonment.
The California Supreme Court held that these former members could sue the Unification Church for fraudulently inducing them to join the cult, and for intentional infliction of emotional distress, but not for false imprisonment. The decision does not mean that the state supreme court found that the cult had acted as the former members claimed. It just gave them the right to sue for these legal claims when lower courts had said that such suits violated the Freedom of Religion Clause of the First Amendment. This case also held that one of the former members had a right to sue for restitution of $6,000 he gave to the cult.

As the court discussed the legal issues, they mentioned the case of Tony and Susan Alamo Foundation v. Secty of Labor, 471 US 290, 305 (1985). This is a United States Supreme Court decision issued in 1985. Isn't this during the time that the 707 DECA project was underway in Miami? That case holds that minimum wage laws are applicable to religious groups.

In reaching its decision, the California Supreme Court stated: 'The legal question is simply whether a religious organization can be held liable on a traditional cause of action in fraud for deceiving nonmembers into subjecting themselves, without their knowledge or consent, to coercive persuation...

'The challenge is to the church's practice of misrepresenting or concealing its identity in order to bring unsuspecting outsiders into its highly structured environment.'

In finding the right to sue for fraud, the court also stated: 'For it is one thing when a person knowingly and voluntarily submits to a process involving a coercive influence, as a novice does on entering a monastery or seminary.... But it is quite another when a person is subjected to coercive persuasion without his knowledge or consent. While some individuals who experience coercive persuasion emerge unscathed, many others develop serious and sometimes irreversible physical and psychiatric disorders, up to and including schizophrenia, self mutilation and suicide... The state clearly has a compelling interest in preventing its citizens from being deceived into submitting unknowingly to such a potentially dangerous process.'

In finding that the former members could sue for intentional infliction of emotional distress, the court stated: '..the church's continued deceptions might well be seen as conduct breaching plaintiffs' trust in the integrity of those who were promising to make their lives more meaningful. So viewed, the church's actions might well constitute an abuse of a 'relation or position which gives [the church] power to damage the plaintiff's interest.'

So, the bottom line is that cults may be subject to civil liability for fraudulently inducing people to join and remain involved. Sound familiar?

Marianne

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 03:31:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: If you want to sue TM also, here is your evidence.
Message:
This was provided lower in the forum by Mr Mind.
You can join a class lawsuit in California and claim you got TM there. TM has a hotel that they bought in Hartford and it is a white elephant and it costing them a bundle and they cant sell it. Never did open.

From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: TM Instructors + Rawatian Instructors=the same ???
Message:
http://www.trancenet.org/personal/kellet.shtml
This(the above) will continue this story if you are interested

TranceNet: Joe Kellet
A Simple, Natural, Relaxation Technique?
I'd like to relate a few of my adventures from my years as a TM meditator and teacher.
PART I: SOMETHING GOOD IS HAPPENING!
At TM introductory lectures no mention is made that there could be any unpleasant experiences associated with TM. True to it's nature as an 'esoteric' teaching (a teaching with many hidden levels of indoctrination), TM keeps the fact of possible negative experiences from the student until he is already past the first level of initiation. Only after initiation, on one of the 'Three Nights After Initiation,'is the concept of 'unstressing' introduced.
TM doctrine teaches that all (absolutely all!) personal difficulties and restrictions are caused by 'stress,' which is some 'abnormality' in the 'nervous system.' If we could free ourselves of stress we would be able to experience 'pure consciousness' at all times. That is, we would be in 'Cosmic Consciousness' (CC) and would be blissful and would effortlessly perform 'spontaneous right actions' at all times. Furthermore, these 'right actions' would enjoy the 'support of Nature' and would therefore be successful. This is the 'normal' state of life that would be enjoyed by all people if only the 'stress' weren't in the way.

Notice, by the way, that we just said that this 'simple relaxation exercise' is supposed to produce people who are morally perfect, people who will 'perform spontaneous right action' in everything they think or do. Also they will receive 'support' from something called 'Nature.' Yet TMers deny to the public that theirs is in any way a spiritual or religious teaching.

This is one example of the fact that TM is an esoteric spiritual system where the full truth is revealed in degrees only as one becomes more deeply indoctrinated. Students are told in the 'Three Nights after Initiation' that a mere 'twenty minutes twice a day' (20x2) of meditation is enough to produce CC. This is a deliberate misrepresentation of actual 'insider' TM doctrine. MMY told us on Teacher Training Course (TTC) that mere 20x2 meditation would not produce CC, but that we should continue telling people that it would. Only long 'rounding' (see below) courses could produce CC, he said, but once we got people doing 20x2 meditation then maybe they would come to longer courses so we weren't really lying. This is an example of TM-style 'spin doctoring' directly from the Master.

This is also an example of how people are deceived about TM doctrine even after they are initiated. As a teacher I frequently lied to people 'for their own good' because 'they weren't ready yet' to receive the full truth, and so did my friends who were teachers. We didn't think of it as 'lying.' We thought we were giving the people as much truth as they could handle. We thought it would be wrong to tell them more than they could handle since they might 'misunderstand' and not start or continue with TM, which would be bad for them.

We did a lot of 'spin doctoring.' We deceived people by deliberately using words that would be misunderstood by the audience. We said 'TM is not a religion' even though we knew that insider TM doctrine as a whole was incompatible with all major religions (including mainstream Hinduism in large part). But we didn't think of ourselves as 'lying' because we were mentally using a very restrictive definition of 'religion,' using the word to mean something like 'an organization that demands faith in a doctrine.' Even though we were teaching doctrine incompatible with other religions we weren't demanding faith so TM was 'not a religion.' We ignored the fact that people could be and were kicked out of the Movement for openly disputing TM doctrine -- we didn't consider this as 'demanding faith,' rather it was 'protecting the purity of the teaching.'

But I digress. TM doctrine declares that the 'deep rest' produced by TM is the answer to this barrier of stress that is keeping us from CC. Stress is only removed by rest. The rest of sleep is supposed to be able to remove casual, surface-level stress. However, the rest of sleep is insufficient to remove the deeper, more serious, more obstreperous stresses 'deep in the nervous system' that are keeping us from being morally perfect, happy, and successful.

TM doctrine says that only by experiencing the much deeper rest of TM can these deeper stresses be removed. Since this involves a physical purification of the nervous system there can be physical and emotional experiences associated with this purification ('we all know how emotions are affected by our physical state'). These experiences can be pleasant or unpleasant, but the quality of the experiences is completely irrelevant. The only important thing is that stresses are being removed and we are closer to our goal of CC and even higher states of consciousness (including 'God Consciousness' (GC)!). One is just supposed to ignore the experiences associated with 'unstressing' and 'return to the mantra.' The whole thing sounds very innocuous as presented in the 'Three Nights after Initiation.'

What one doesn't hear about on these three nights of post-trance indoctrination (more on this below) is the concept of 'heavy unstressing.' A meditator usually only receives doctrinal instruction regarding heavy unstressing on 'residence courses' where one goes off for several days of peace and quiet plus the opportunity to meditate more than just 20x2. There he may learn that if a major stress is released there can be negative physical and emotional experiences long after the meditation is over.

And these major stresses are more likely to be released on a residence course. This is because this is where the 'prolonged deep rest' over a period of days is supposed to produce rest deep enough and prolonged enough to attack those whopper stresses that are really impacting our lives and keeping us from CC. The experience of having these major stresses 'unstressed' can be emotionally and physically very uncomfortable, but we should just keep meditating and should be happy the stress is on the way out.

But we should never make important decisions while on a residence course because our decision-making process is clouded by the process of stress release. (Actually, the reason we shouldn't make major decisions is because we are in a trance state so much that we can become dissociated -- more on this below).

Note that according to TM doctrine there is no possible excuse for abandoning TM. If you feel great it's because you practice TM and you should therefore continue meditating. If you feel absolutely miserable it's because 'Something good is happening!' (a major TM catch phrase) in that those bad old stresses are being released, you should therefore continue meditating. TM is working its wonders no matter what happens to you in your life!

Anyway, this 'heavy unstressing' is something that the Movement doesn't talk about in public, and that MIU doesn't do four-color bar charts on. The experience of 'heavy unstressing' is real and fairly common, regardless of whether you accept TM doctrinal explanations for the cause of it. A significant number of people come home even from weekend residence courses with very uncomfortable negative emotional overcasts, and similar problems can occur even for 20x2 meditators. What is a 'significant number of people'? Enough people so that all TM 'checkers' and teachers are taught how to help people with such problems.

On a long course, such as a Teacher Training Course (TTC), heavy unstressing is a major fact of life for many people. My TTC (the 'Mallorca/Fiuggi Fonte Course' circa '72) was infamous for the 'heavy unstressing' that went on. One TTC staffer (for any TM historical buffs this was Billy Clayton who was a 'skin boy,' one of MMY's personal attendants who carried MMY's deerskin and laid for him to sit on) called this the 'General Hospital' TTC because so many people had severe problems.

At one point we were 'rounding' for 14 hours a day! A 'round' is a period of meditation followed by a period of yoga postures or 'asanas.' Meditation, asanas, meditation, asanas, etc. etc. etc. for 14 hours a day, day after day. At other points in the course we rounded fewer hours a day which gave us time for hours and hours of indoctrination sessions. This went on for a minimum of three months for everyone, but there were people like me there for six months and even longer doing this.

It was very common for people to acquire major tics of large muscle groups, most commonly in the form of very noticeable head jerks. I'm talking about sudden jerks of the head to right or left of about 45 degrees. In addition there were people with major emotional problems. MMY had to establish 'heavy unstressing clinics.' At attempt was made to help unstressors at these clinics by application of physical therapies including body massage and foot massage.

Several people were not able to become TM teachers at this course because they were not able to free themselves of the major body tics before it was time to 'receive their mantras.' MMY could not send people back to their communities as official 'Exponents of Reality' when they had been so conspicuously damaged by the TTC experience.

One course participant went home and was hospitalized for mental difficulties by his father, a psychiatrist. MMY was quite disturbed by this event (he of course particularly wanted the endorsement of psychiatrists) and he discussed this negative turn of events in an open session. I met another course acquaintance again after I 'graduated' TTC and returned to the LA area, and she was still having very conspicuous and embarrassing major head jerks. I myself managed to overcome my physical tics in time to become a teacher, but I went home in a very strange mental state. (More on this below.)

I stayed on for a month after the official TTC ended to witness the taping of the original 'Science of Creative Intelligence' course by MMY. MMY was openly unhappy by the amount of 'heavy unstressing' that had gone on (again, that's how we heard about the psychiatrist's son). His position was that the course selection process had let too many people into the course who 'weren't ready' for the dramatic evolutionary power unleashed by such prolonged meditation.

In fact 'heavy unstressing' is never considered to be caused by 'something wrong with TM.' It is considered to be a fact of life which must be faced by anyone who wants to attain the happiness of CC. TMers are told that the answer to unstressing is to ignore it and keep meditating on their regular schedule. If a person stops meditating, according to TM doctrine, the stress is left in an 'unstressing' state and the negative experiences will continue indefinitely. Sometimes a person is advised to reduce their time of meditation, and in extreme cases meditation is temporarily replaced by a body awareness practice called 'feeling the body,' but TM itself cannot be dropped permanently without bad consequences.

Supposedly, if a person keeps on as instructed the stress will ultimately be unstressed and the person will be forever free of it. This hope is what keeps people meditating through some excruciating emotional experiences. They can't stop TM no matter how horrible they feel. The worse they feel, and the longer they suffer, the bigger the stress is that they are unstressing, and the more important it is to continue TM and get that stress completely unstressed. According to TM doctrine, there is never a good reason to give up TM -- the worse things get for you the more you need TM.

When someone does the unthinkable and gives up TM anyway as a result of heavy unstressing everyone is sorry they stopped. But they feel that (1) the person is better off as result of the evolution they did gain before quitting and the person will be in a better position to march towards CC in their next life and (2) it's just too bad they were too weak to face the unstressing, keep meditating, and overcome the stress in this life. There is never a thought among the hard-core that perhaps TM itself is at fault in some way, or even that TM just wasn't right for that person, or that the person is in fact worse off for having done TM.

There is another danger from heavy TM involvement other than from heavy unstressing. So let me start over and tell my story again from a different angle.

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 04:23:07 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Meditate CONSTANTLY in the holy name
Message:
I should have become a Lamaze instructor.

The darknes is dissipating, we are seen the light and many are going finally to realize the K of all the knowledges: GURU MAHARAJI, THE LORD OF THE UNIVERSE IS NOT REAL.

I advise him to urgently begin theraphy.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:32:55 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Meditate CONSTANTLY, equals mental torture. NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:23:28 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Just some more unsynchronised syncopations...
Message:
Smile, Mister Guru man,
You’re the Only One
Leading all love’s children
To that breakfast in the sun
Never more to think again
Never more to blink again
Tease them to the brink again
Oh what fun..!

Shine, Golden Guru man
The darkest hour is passed
Aquarius is dawning - yea,
Thine age has come at last
And here’s your holy army, man
All more than two parts barmy, man
So charming is their swami man
- till he’s rat-arsed..

Heil, Master Guru man
Your Word it shall be done
Your car [oops! - sorry – ‘cup’] it runneth over
And your kingdom it is come
They’ve no-one else to match you with
No mortal man to batch you with
Don’t ever let them catch you with
Your pants undone…

Rise, lusty Guru man
Here’s sisters by the score
Their lives are yours, surrendered – hey! –
What could you ask for more?
But basking in the afterglow
Some wanton child now wants to know:
Was she co-star in the show
or unpaid whore..?

File, flaky Guru man
Some lawsuits left and right
Don’t be a victim of
The libel, bile and spite
But just in case, you better shred
The evidence of all you’ve said
In case the taxman gets ahead
and so goodnight…

Run, little Guru man
The hour is getting late
For karma’s called your number now
The truth it will not wait
There's no-one left to call upon
(but here’s a sword to fall upon…)
Or else they’ll have your balls upon
A golden plate…

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 17:30:01 (GMT)
From: Bai Gosh Ji
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: By golly - your balls upon a golden plate
Message:
Very good fund raising strategy, Larkin. Kiss the lotus balls for only ten bucks except I think you would like to separate the golden gonads from their rightful owner before putting them on that golden plate. You naughty man.
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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 11:32:26 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Give up the day job Larkin.
Message:
Yet another brilliant ditty.

Howya doin' up there?

We've got sunshine, sea and sand down here.

Anth, who's starting to think he's retired. (TURN the telly ON, TUNE IN to Match of the Day, and DROP the empties OUT the window).

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Date: Sun, May 20, 2001 at 00:50:42 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Pulitzer prize.
Message:
Or any other(not so familiar with poetry)
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 17:18:22 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: Mahasamadhi
To: Everyone
Subject: Why is Forum response time so slow? Quicken?
Message:
I can read two chapters of a novel in the time it takes for the individual threads to appear on my computer screen. Can this be quickened. Any one else having this problem? I realize that 'quicken' is an Art Bell term, but I'm not trying to trap you as victims in another cult by using such jargon. Honest! -ViC
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 22:24:37 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Apparently Morse Code connections are a little slo
Message:
and it helps when your chip is not manufactured by Hostess
(sorry couldn't resist)
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 21:38:08 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Not a problem for me usually n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 17:12:52 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: Mahasamadhi
To: Everyone
Subject: The Superior Power In Person - news ads
Message:
Little ads in shopping mall newspapers and in classified sections of major newspapers including USA Today might or might not dilute the effectiveness of a major and larger ad in a more visible section of the newspaper for the 'host and parasite' town in which Rawat will be appearing in an official program. Discuss how you think about this ?

Public libraries have Gale Publication directories of all newspapers in the US and including inexpensive mall newspapers. These reach large numbers of readership. One paid inexpensive ad can appear in several town's paper. An individual 'Lone Ranger' ex can do this alone. The larger ads at time of program could be done by a steering committee off-line with donations for the ad accepted. Will ongoing 'Lone Ranger' ads dilute the effect of the major official program ads?

Ad # 1: THE SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON - www.ex-premie.org

Very inexpensive and tucked into classified sections. Will it draw inquiisitive response?

Ad # 2: *********************************************

THE SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON

www.ex-premie.org

**********************************

A more expensive ad in a more obvious part of newspaper. These are called 'space' ads as opposed to classified section. Two or more people to share cost. Something like this in USA TODAY appropriate section and the cost shared by five people should be affordable.

What use of ads will be helpful? What would backfire. These ideas easily get lost in yesterday's threads. Keep the momentum alive. We do need a special section on some web-site or another that can be refered to by people on any site. New people being directed to the possibility of advertising. Cumulative up-dates. This web-site is probably the best?

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Date: Sat, May 19, 2001 at 20:42:26 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: The Superior Power In Person - news ads
Message:
I think you are right on the mark! As soon as I move(I should not be doing this, I have to still pack stuff in boxes and ride trash!!!) I will give it a try in a Atlanta newspaper. I wonder if it is possible by the FA or the webmaster to find out if there will be more visits to the site from that area then.
It would be good to be able to evaluate, so we can learn and share our knowledge on the way. When I place the ad I will post about it.
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