Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, May 29, 2001 at 16:41:34 (GMT)
From: May 18, 2001 To: May 29, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


Joy -:- Children of Krishna is a Must See -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:51:10 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Children of Krishna is a Must See -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:39:16 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- How could anyone say this was a cult...?!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 16:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- Great picture, Richard! -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:55:15 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Caption to ashram photo above -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:50:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Thanks for that Richard! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:46:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Captures a time.... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:45:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Richard -:- Captures a time.... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Dan Hinckley -- nice guy -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Captures a time.... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:17:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Captures a time.... -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 01:34:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Captures a time.... -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 18:33:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joy -:- David Davis -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:54:52 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Is that... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:31:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Is that... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:06:58 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Oh boy, Richard -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:52:20 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Children of Krishna is a Must See -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 13:22:19 (GMT)
__ sb -:- did u taped it -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:43:37 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- showing this Saturday too! check kcts.org re.time -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 13:06:47 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- it's showing again Tuesday june 12 3.30am -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:46:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- thanks -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 14:31:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- thanks - don't mention it! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:15:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- thanks - don't mention it! -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 03:58:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- I left two weeks ago! -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- two weeks ago, wow! welcome!! N/T -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 01:47:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- You seem to be ok , know what you mean .. -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 00:51:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Good for you! -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 21:17:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Look - no crutches either!!! Groovy, learning to.. -:- Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:56:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- creativejani, great story! -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:50:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Hi, thanks for the pointers and congratulations.. -:- Sun, May 27, 2001 at 12:42:44 (GMT)
__ such -:- r.e. jumping around; lotsa sugar in their diet (nt -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:16:23 (GMT)

A JEWEL from bellow -:- CHRIS needs help. Anyone? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:41:55 (GMT)
__ bill -:- just keep reading and posting here chris.....nt -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:51:12 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Talk about your straw men... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:44:57 (GMT)
__ janet -:- jonestown, MJ and our marianne's role. read it -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:06:58 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- jonestown, MJ and our marianne's role. read it -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 05:31:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- People's Temple members, premies, real people... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 08:39:22 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Here be the link -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:05:27 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Just received that famous article ! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:28:54 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Just received that famous article ! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 13:26:49 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- yes!! good going -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:43:11 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- yes!! good going -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:45:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- Hunter S Thompson I'm OT again -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:08:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sb -:- Hunter S Thompson I'm OT again too lol -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:19:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Hunter S Thompson OT y lol -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Hunter S Thompson OT y lol -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yeah finished - wasn't really hungry -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 03:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'm back but only till dessert -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 03:33:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- lol -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:41:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks for the invite sb ot -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 03:08:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Ok. I say it: ANYTIME. ot -:- Fri, May 25, 2001 at 17:04:26 (GMT)
__ sb -:- alleluya! LOL -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:36:14 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Praise the Lord! What a find! (nt) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:13:27 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- Glad II was here to hear the news - well done! (nt -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:31:04 (GMT)

JohnT -:- Have You Heard ... ? (rewrite) -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:26:48 (GMT)

Disculta -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:44:50 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Petty and thick as a custard -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:55:54 (GMT)
__ janet -:- send him our support.we await his arrival greatly -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:51:47 (GMT)
__ wolfie -:- thanks......another friend of mine (nt) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:47:13 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- This guy is a looser -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:51:58 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Goddamnit, Pauline, you need a bitch slapping (nt) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:06:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- You sadist- hi roger. (nt) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:04:37 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- Nauseating experiences, IDOLIZATION and PARANOIA -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:27:51 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Nauseating experiences, IDOLIZATION and PARANOIA -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:12:49 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Jim Jones: a quote from Way's link -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:36:30 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Powerful indeed -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:20:35 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:28:11 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Many thanks, sweetie dahling, and to your friend -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:15:39 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Wow. ***Best of J-M?*** -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:58:57 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Thanks !!! ***** Keep tagging them -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:31:23 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- The fear, arrogance, defensiveness -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:13:44 (GMT)
__ jim boeger -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- The fear was instilled by rawat. Dont blame -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:20:56 (GMT)
__ __ wolfie -:- too many millions and more..... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:17:54 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:19:46 (GMT)
__ __ Curious George -:- Interesting post from Jim -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:28:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ know -:- Interesting post from Jim -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:21:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jim boweger -:- Interesting post from Jim -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:51:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- dont believe their math. it's never true. -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy_warp -:- Hello Jim... hang on in here... it gets better! nt -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:58:54 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- On the other hand... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:49:48 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- This isn't about stage fright. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:46:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- TO: Scott T. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:18:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:25:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:28:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JIM BOEGER -:- I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:01:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:30:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- you're a highly intelligent blabbermouth, at that! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:24:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- family traits (ot) -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:42:25 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Hi Jim, nice to see you here -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:12:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ jim -:- Hi Jim, nice to see you here -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:21:15 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Excuse me jim -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:03:59 (GMT)
__ Carl -:- My God, what an utter hell, a sad, sad story -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:21:25 (GMT)
__ Katie H. -:- Appreciate your friend letting you post these! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:19:16 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Thank you for this testimony! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:17:36 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Can you post a link to the French article svp? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:18:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Which one ? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Thank you for this testimony! -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:28:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Catharsis -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:36:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Catharsis -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:46:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Seating Anxiety -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:02:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Dreams -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:19:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Dreams -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:38:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Catharsis -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:52:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Anxiety -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:07:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Feeling tone . . . a very interesting term. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:52:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Feeling tone . . . a very interesting term. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:27:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Feeling tone . . . a very helpful realization -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 21:25:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Feeling tone . . . a very helpful realization -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:32:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Feeling tone . . . a Southern black expression -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:31:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Anxiety and being the victim -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:16:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Anxiety and being the victim -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:05:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Anxiety and being the victim -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:31:56 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- M down on psychology - what about Marolyn/Valerio? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:14:55 (GMT)
__ Ulf -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:58:28 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- Former instructor describes nauseating experiences -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:14:20 (GMT)

thethinker -:- knowlede is free. So why does it cost so much? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:21:37 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- my take?...because it's good business for m -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:48:43 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- because it's good business -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:07:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- because it's good business - exactly right! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:11:38 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Knowledge not only NOT free but taught wrongly too -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:43:46 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Good point, thinker -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:40:08 (GMT)
__ __ free of divinity Cult Bob -:- Good point, thinker -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:55:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Good point, Bob -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:02:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Interesting point, Pat -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 03:39:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- It was fun for me before I met the urug -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:10:16 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Sorry, knowledge. nt. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:26:07 (GMT)

creativejani -:- come on, let's do something constructive... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:08:28 (GMT)
__ sb -:- Don't be afraid! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 14:45:28 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- Hey, I could do with another mother figure! -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:20:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- May the force be with you... -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:14:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Force is pretty strong at the moment! -:- Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:28:43 (GMT)
__ General Mayhem -:- come on, let's do something constructive... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 12:11:19 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- come on, let's do something constructive... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:33:57 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- Why so many preparatory steps to Enjoy Life? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 13:16:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- Why so many preparatory steps to Enjoy Life? -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:35:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- ROFL! thanks NT -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:08:10 (GMT)
__ thethinker -:- a support group for ex-premies recovering... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:39:01 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy_Warp -:- To everyone on this thread - Email me -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 14:31:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Support group -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ creativejani -:- Support group -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:44:41 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- Who is Guru Maharaj ji? the 'authorized story'... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:24:24 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Guru is greater than God because he sells God -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:29:40 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Sorry Pat, you don't get it. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:15:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Sorry Anth, I should have said ''Guru is greater -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:26:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- I think the Captain still believes this -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:40:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I think the Captain still believes this - me too -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:44:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Great minds work alike. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:49:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Great minds work alike - trying to design a -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:59:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey, lets do sushi sometime. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:56:14 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Such -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:01:59 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- Exactly,brother! That's why I dug up the quotes(nt -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:58:40 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- They forgot to paint out Trotsky. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:30:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- It's Rum and Coke over here -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:02:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yo ho ho and cheers, Sandy -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:53:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You sound like an ex-rated ex-premie... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:04:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I was always an ex-rated ex-premie... -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:52:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Like, don't bogart that joint, my friends... (ot -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:42:34 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Found it...copied from below...belongs here -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:09:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Guru Maharaji, from u I was born and to u now I go -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:25:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- Tell the guru we're surfin',now the game is on you -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 21:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- We need one more darshan line for ex-premies -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:34:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- or maybe hunting ze wily bull tofu w/ all the kids -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:15:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Ever since I dumped the urug I've been wanting to -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:16:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- I wrote the long letter but never sent it (ot -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:18:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I'll email you later. Must go to work NT (ot -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:25:00 (GMT)

creativejani -:- all English ex-ashram premies should sue ... -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 23:01:41 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Yes Jani, -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:21:33 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Statute of limitations..? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 13:37:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- never too late. -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:02:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- That's only in America Nigel. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 14:07:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy warp -:- Check yer mail box OT ntx -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 13:41:19 (GMT)
__ __ creativejani -:- Yes Jani, -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:19:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ thethinker -:- Yes, and what about a support group? -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:34:30 (GMT)

JHB -:- Maharaji, the plane, and EV -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:52:28 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- How doggone nice of him -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:27:11 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- Anger from the heart -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:09:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Righteous Anger has its place -:- Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:01:21 (GMT)
__ such -:- like, totally cosmic coincidences, John! lila?... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Pilot Fees -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:59:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- Pilot Fees -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:27:16 (GMT)
__ creativejani -:- Maharaji, the plane, and EV -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:14:09 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Maharaji, the plane, and EV -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:18:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Maharaji, the plane, and EV -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:25:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Quotes and Champagne -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:43:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Latvian Night at John's. -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:09:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- What you have to do for the Champagne... -:- Tues, May 22, 2001 at 21:38:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ creativejani -:- Maharaji, the plane, and EV -:- Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:25:08 (GMT)


Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:51:10 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Children of Krishna is a Must See
Message:
Wow, this was a very powerful documentary, which will be greatly relevant to ex-cult members from all types of cults (not just us). Talk about cathartic, some of the early footage shown was so reminiscent of our early involvement with M (arti trays, pranam-ing, etc.), and was really eerie to watch. So many of the Hindu concepts they espoused were adopted by Guru Maharaj Ji for ashram use also (oh, I forgot, it was the mahatmas made us do it, sorry).

Apart from being a good history of the ISKCON movement in the U.S., it focused on several children who had been born in the cult and how their parents gave them up to be raised in these cult-run schools called Gurukulas, and how harsh this was on them (sleeping on wooden floors in sleeping bags, up at 3 a.m., chanting and chores for four hours before breakfast). Then it really got down to the nitty gritty of all the child abuse that happened in these boarding schools and how rampant that was. It was beyond shocking.

These abused children (about 100 of them but they're trying to add more) have banded together and hired a Texas attorney and are suing the movement for $400 million, which will effectively close them down if they're successful. There was a chat with the producer afterwards in which he was saying that many churches and other religious groups (no doubt M's lawyers, too) are watching this lawsuit very closely because it could open the floodgates for other groups to be successfully sued. We should all pay close attention! At the end of the chat with the producer, they said there was more info on the lawsuit and other aspects of the show on www.kcts.org, so if someone wants to go over there and check it out and report what's on there, that'd be good, since it's past my bedtime and that's enough cult stuff for one day for me. This program was produced by KCTS in Seattle and this was apparently the first showing of it ever, so it may take awhile to get shown in other places. Perhaps people could contact their local PBS stations to find out if and when?

Anyhow, this was absolutely fascinating, and very relevant to everyone here. A must see.
Goodnight all,
Joy

P.S. I am SO glad I was never attracted in the slightest to this sinister cult. All that jumping around just looks so exhausting, even for the young and energetic, and those ugly tilak things they had to wear on their foreheads -- yuck.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:39:16 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Children of Krishna is a Must See
Message:
Joy,

I couldn't resist sharing this photo from my Denver ashram. There are many familiar faces here including your truly. (Not shown is the renegade Hindu-concept-crazed mahatma just off camera holding a gun to our heads. It was the only way to force us to dress so funny.) The children were ashram residents as well. The women to the left holding, I believe Tristan Bishop, was our housemother. Once when I crossed the Maginot line into the kitchen she scolded me 'this is Guru Maharaji's kitchen and this is Guru Maharaji's cheesecake!' Ah, such sweet surrender.

This photo was similar to ones taken in all 26 DLM ashrams in Denver in the fall of 1973. They were given to us to send to our families in lieu of Christmas cards. I'm sure hearts stopped beating all over the US.

Ashram 1973

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 16:31:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: How could anyone say this was a cult...?!!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:55:15 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Great picture, Richard!
Message:
I don't know anyone in the picture, but I FEEL like I recognize everyone. It's amazing how we all looked the same back then (especially the men!). Also, Joe is correct about the setting - empty room in front of a fireplace altar. Almost all the premie houses I lived in had this same kind of living room.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:50:40 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Caption to ashram photo above
Message:
OK, since you asked about who these fine, well meaning folk are, let's see how the ol' brain cells have held up. '?' means I can't remember their name. Just looking at this, I have affection for everyone and a sense of nostalgic naiveté. We were on a mission from God.

FRONT ROW L to R: Housemother? holding Tristan Bishop, Brother? holding Julie Bourne, Maurice Brogue, George Fishman, Mark Lawson, Laurie Van Scoy, Sister?

NEXT ROW: Sister?, Marie Noel (French), Brother?, Dan Hinckley, Sister?, Joan Sylvester

BACK ROW: Kenny Warren, Bill Van Scoy, Mahatma?, George?, David Davis, Lucy Trotter, Richard Rogers, Carol Bourne

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:46:53 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thanks for that Richard!
Message:
That's a hoot!

The 'sister' in the middle row, far left, just under Kenny Warren is Liz O'Driscoll. She's still a premie, but is also still a good friend of mine and I think I'll send her the URL to the photo so she can get a good laugh out of it, too.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:45:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Captures a time....
Message:
All those ashrams in big, big houses with no, no furniture and altars on the fireplaces. I think the ashrams in Denver were a bit different, since they were more just housing and not centers of the community, like they were a lot of other places.

That picture says so much. Sitting cross-legged on the floor in a baggy suit with not shoes. That's a common image. Those guant faces. Those blank stares. Creepy. It really is a cult, that's for sure.

Didn't David Davis die?

Dan Hinckley? The guy who shot Reagan?

Lucy Trotter was one of Randy Prouty's girlfriends, wasn't she? I recall her as a back-stage gopi in Miami.

Any idea how many of those people are still in the cult?

Richard, why don't you have a mustache like all the other guys? Were you in your mind or something, trying to look different?

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:06:17 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Captures a time....
Message:
No Joe, not THAT Hinckley. Dan was editor of Divine Times, an incredible person, mentioned in Sophia's book.

No mustache probably because at age 25 I hadn't reached puberty yet.

I have incredible respect for the late David Davis for leaving as he did (Joy recounts this below).

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:28:07 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Dan Hinckley -- nice guy
Message:
Dan actually grew up in Hickory Corners, Michigan, the tiny town next to my own tiny town of Richland. He was a couple of years older than me but somehow our paths never crossed back in Michigan. It turned out we had many friends in common though.

I met him after he left the ashram and he was living with a bunch of ex-SF ashramites in Oakland. I would be very, very surprised if he was still a premie. He was a really nice guy, smart, very well read, with a devilish wit. I always wondered what happened to him.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:17:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Captures a time....
Message:
I was kidding re Hinckley, although I'm sure you knew that. I also recall Dan mentioned in Sophia's book.

Yeah, I had met David Davis in Miami, and he always seemed a nice guy. Around the time David split, a bunch of other people did, too. I think that would have been around 1982-1983. There was a really big exodus from the cult around that time, although people tended to leave alone, and there was very little support.

Leukemia can get people so damm fast. Another ex-premie friend of mine, whom I knew from Middle School, died of a very aggressive form of leukemia a year ago. His name was Denny Roling. I kind of got him into the cult, but he saw the nonsense and left Maharaji a long time before I did.

When you and Joy and I had lunch in Seattle, I think you mentioned a guy in Miami who was featured in a Sunday feature article about knowledge and Maharaji, around 1980. I remember I was CC in Miami at the time. The article was positive from the cult's perspective, although it seemed to have zero effect on the number of aspirants. Who was that guy?

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 01:34:03 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Captures a time....
Message:
Joe I was in Miami from 79 'till 93, but I don't remember you for some reason, of course I was a nobody then. Anyway I wish I could remember. Did you live in the Broadripple ashram? I used to do service there almost every day.
Mercedes
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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 18:33:45 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Captures a time....
Message:
I lived in the Broadripple in the Spring and early Summer of 1979.

I was community coordinator in Miami from October, 1979 to October, 1980, and lived for most of that time in an ashram in Coral Gables.

There were thousands of premies in Miami at that time, including about 500 ashram residents. It was easy not to know a whole lot of the premies.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:54:52 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: David Davis
Message:
Yes, I'm afraid David Davis did die, of leukemia, about ten years or so ago. I was pretty close to David, we shared an office out at SHIP for a couple years. He was a good guy, and split from the ashram and guru at the same time, in very dramatic fashion a good few years before his death. He hated Miami, where he'd been transfered, used to complain it was nothing but a paved swamp, and one morning he just left a note on his pillow that he didn't want to do what he was doing any more, and was totally gone, didn't leave a forwarding address or anything. He'd gone back to his native Portland, Oregon to start up a freelance airbrush art business, at which he became very successful. He's missed, and would've been a very cynical and great addition to this Forum. Richard knew him well, too.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:31:11 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Is that...
Message:
Is that David Mancoff on the floor, with a stripped shirt, glasses, and mustache?
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:06:58 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Is that...
Message:
No, although it sort of looks like David.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 16:52:20 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Oh boy, Richard
Message:
There's something about that picture. I'd recognize it even if I didn't recognize you and Joanie and is that Mort? and who's that on your left?

It's a sort of vibrational 'look.' Haven't seen it for ages. Must be out of fashion.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 13:22:19 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Children of Krishna is a Must See
Message:
Joy, I read the stuff on the kcts website, very interesting (I'm in UK). The difference here seems to be that the Krishna movement no longer has a living leader, and the current organisation co-operated fully with the programme makers. Because M is still very much the leader and in control of EV (no matter what they say on the EV website!) the only way anything is going to change for us is if some ex-premies get together in the same way and launch a lawsuit for damages. I think it will be much harder because of the level of fanaticism (devotion) of anyone still involved with EV.

The profile of the average Hare Krishna devotee was one of someone with a compulsive personality who didn't trust society (this was back in the early seventies.) You needed a compulsive
personality to cope with all the rituals.

Miragey's premies were/are, I would suspect, a bit different in that there were always two strands to the cult: the love of the master /devotion, and the bliss/inner experience/ knowledge. It seems to me, from my own experience of being more interested in the inner experience than devotion, that it was the devotees who really got ripped off and have the most to sue M for. Also, thank goodness there were never any boarding schools, Unity School in Cornwall didn't get off the ground (though Jagdeo did visit and allegedly abused a girl there - I say allegedly because that's the legal term until something's been proved, I am not doubting the story at all - people in a position of trust and power...etc.)

Of course, it's the devotion aspect of M's message that is the one being denied and hidden in the EV FAQs, because that is where the danger lies and that is his evil intention - to entice people in with the promise of something for nothing - using the word 'free' is one of the most successful marketing strategies - and then introducing the concept of gratitude, respect and finally - devotion!

I wish I could see the programme, but will keep an eye out for the law suit - we should all be taking notes here!

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:43:37 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: did u taped it
Message:
I wanted to see it so bad and I forgot totally? Maybe it will be shown again. aughhhh

thanks Joy.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 13:06:47 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: showing this Saturday too! check kcts.org re.time
Message:
if you type 'faith and fear' into the search box you'll get the info.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:46:56 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: it's showing again Tuesday june 12 3.30am
Message:
according to the schedules anyway. I don't have cable or satellite and I'm in UK so I can't see it. Check kcts.org to make sure!
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 14:31:29 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: thanks
Message:
I will set my VCR. I can't wait to watch it. Did you?

I don't read all messages, of course, impossible, so I don't know if it was explained here what the program was about.

thanks.

Do I know you from here? Or are you new?

Take care,

sb

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:15:28 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: thanks - don't mention it!
Message:
Hi SB, I'm new here and I don't know anyone much. It's interesting getting to know regulars, a bit compulsive at the moment actually. I hope I'll be able to keep it down to one posting every couple of days before long...

Are you in America or the UK? I hope you're having a good time, wherever you are!

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 03:58:12 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: thanks - don't mention it!
Message:
Hi C, welcome to REALITY. :)

I'm at in the US, close to Canada (shhh LOL)

I met few ex-premies in person, ALL fantastic human beings! JM, Robyn, Helen, Katie and Brian, Scott and G, and I write with few others ocasionally. I really don't have too much free time to be here, except when I see my son act weird and my first reaction is to post. My way of working my 'ensalada'. I want to do something to stop lard. I want him to free everybody who think he is God. (all?) hahahaha

I started to post here, 'broken in pieces', around October but read for a long time before. i came as a service to him, wanting to know what the bad ex-premies were talking about and got hooked by so much truth. hehehehehe....

It's normal to want to express yourself; we were gagged for so long. He took so much from us and talking freely was one thing I found it cruel. He made us feel like idiots, we didn't know how to talk about K...You'll get tired later, but histories are alaways welcome.

yes, I am having a great time, enjoying being alive, free. Super!
Enjoy reading the truth of our plastic god. very revealing and is all over. have you chequed it? Did you read Bob Mishler's interview? That made it for me. Yuck! He has it coming and he knows it. We'll help him gain speed. hehehehehe.... He is sick, that's all, and it made many of us sick as well. I hope you werent involved too much. He got me good. I resent all the time I lost serving an empty greedy cause.

Stick around and remain strong. When did you left?

Love to you,

SB, ex-Aspirant Contact of the cult of hell.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:19:19 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I left two weeks ago!
Message:
Hi SB, I left two weeks ago, while I was waiting to register for the Nottingham programme (sorry, event) over here, I thought I'd check the ex-premie sites I'd heard about - and within about five minutes, alot of stuff I'd filed away at the back of my mind suddenly made sense, plus the fact I'd been feeling very little inspiration at video events and the whole thing seemed boring and there was no interesting way to get invloved any more - I'm a musician and I thought M's music was pretty poor, not to mention the terrible poems. So what I read here just pulled together alot of things for me, plus I found a good friend I hadn't heard from for a long while was here already!

So it was quite painless, actually, and though it still feels a little weird - there's a big gap where M used to be, as a symbol of love and truth, I still have my connection to the love and my interest in the 'truth', whatever that is, so I don't really feel I've lost much. I wasn't in an ashram, didn't completely leave my family though I coiuld have been a lot closer, but I don't blame M for that, it was my desire to run away from the feeling of not belonging or being loved that brought me to him - if it hadn't been M and knowledge, it might have been something even worse! I suppose I listened to my heart, and it steered me clear of the rotten core of m's world. Ironic, really! I agree with you about not being allowed to express yourself in EV, which is why it's good to talk here. The EV site says people are encouraged to have original thoughts, or something like that, but reading the 'instructor training' reports earlier that just isn't true anywhere near M. Not good, not healthy, not fun, not life-affirming - the total opposite of what he'd have us believe when he's doing the master bit on stage. That's why it's so hard to realise what he's really like.

What a great site this is - it'll get to virtual heaven, no doubt about it! All the best, give my love to Canada (I quite fancy spending a bit of time in Vancouver myself, sounds like a chilled and groovy place to me. ) Cheers!

Take care,

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 01:47:13 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: two weeks ago, wow! welcome!! N/T
Message:
welcome
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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 00:51:48 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: You seem to be ok , know what you mean ..
Message:
...about the gap , it'll fill in in time . A bit like having a tooth out , you keep on putting your tongue in the hole & then one day the hole isn't there anymore.

I liked your story.

All the best : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 21:17:10 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Good for you!
Message:
two weeks only and you 'sound' good. I'm glad you do not hold bad feeling toward him. I still do, but mainly because I see how negatively it affected me, and I still have to see my friends suffer. I read a post bellow, at the end I mentioned a premie friend of mine. Pathetic. Some people got hurt bad emotionally. Those are the ones that end up down and I'm concerned for them. I was there. It seems that the deeper you get involved the more it affects you. Maybe I heard/watch too many videos and it influenced me more. I was the V.librarian, and theaspirant Contact.

EV instruct Aspirant Contacts to avoid speaking to the aspirants, because it's better that they hear EVERYTHING from the master. Is like he is in a power trip or not?Why do they have SO much about EV and him? Where did he get 7,000,000 just few months a go to buy a yacth? I didn't get it as I didn't get many, many things until I leanred the real Thruth here.

Nice to be free, isn't?

I'm going to post your post above.

Love is real: WE WON! hehehehe
No crutches.

SB

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Date: Sat, May 26, 2001 at 16:56:00 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Look - no crutches either!!! Groovy, learning to..
Message:
think for yourself and take responsibility is certainly more freedom than any premie has as long as they believe in miragey! Let's have lots of fun and show them by example what it's like to be ourselves again! It was alot of fun in the early DLM mission daysm crazy and wild but lotsa fun - otherwise I certainly wouldn't have hung around. It should be easier now to get out, since it's anything but fun going to 'trainings' and feeling a failure if you can't stump up a couple of thousand for a couple of days camping - not to mention the week of jetlag when you get back... Now, why would anyone want to be involved with that kind of thing???

The bliss of the newly awakened knows no bounds...

Take care sb.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:50:18 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: creativejani, great story!
Message:
Thanks for posting it, and welcome. I think I was on my honeymoon in Seattle (I got married to the EPO webmaster :)) when you first arrived here.

BTW, be sure and keep asking if you have any questions about the site or the forum - sometimes us regulars forget that this place can be a bit confusing for newer people.

Glad you're here!
Katie

P.S. FYI, because it's confusing, there are actually two Katies here - me (Katie H.), and Disculta (Katie D.) We don't mind being mistaken for each other, though :).

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Date: Sun, May 27, 2001 at 12:42:44 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Hi, thanks for the pointers and congratulations..
Message:
hope you had a great time in Seattle, any webmaster of this site can't be all bad...!
All the best to you both, hope you enjoy (respectable married) life and appreciate every day of your freedom from mr rawatt's evil clutches.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 07:16:23 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: r.e. jumping around; lotsa sugar in their diet (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:41:55 (GMT)
From: A JEWEL from bellow
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: CHRIS needs help. Anyone?
Message:
Yes, life goes on outside of practicing Knowledge, and for me it did so quite easily. People don't have to have Knowledge and Maharaji in their lives to experience very exciting lives (or very mundane lives if that's what they are into).

I came back -- and I'm very glad I did. By the way, during those six years I too thought about writing 'exposes' of Maharaji, and felt those same exact fears many people feel that post on this website, worrying that his followers might respond to him as Jim Jones' followers did. But be honest. Look at Jim Jones and what he was teaching those people. He had even had dress rehearsal for the suicidal Kool-aid trip. Maharaji couldn't be more opposite.

Let me give an analogy: Have any of you have watched some of those movies based on true stories? Man and woman marry, everything seems hunky dory, maybe they have a kid too, and then the man or woman turns out to be a sociopathic homicidal maniac bent on murdering husband, wife and/or child. Shall we all now conclude from this that (a) never marry a man because he could turn out to be a homicidal maniac, (b) never marry a woman because she could turn out to be a homicidal maniac or (c) never trust anyone because s/he could be a sociopath?

Maharaji is no Jim Jones and the similarities do not exist except that people trusted JJ and people trust Maharaji. End of similarities. End of need to compare the two.

Maharaji offers me something that I haven't found elsewhere except with Jesus -- plus more.

Oh my. Chris, this is SB. Do you realize what you said? I don't think you do. Just because situations, settings and belief system tell you that you need his twinky feet to make sense of life doesn't mean that you are 100% sure that is the way to go, right? What if you were wrong? I too left for a long time and in a vulnerable time he got me again 'interested', trapped in the idea taht I NEED HIM to make it..yuck!

Empower yourself and question your relationship with Lard and also, read a bit about Jesus. The guy, if what was written as his words is true, was another lunatic. Only the one who hates his mother and his father and who leaves everything behind will get into heaven?? My mother needs my love, because you know? I had to become a mother myself to understand the caring nature put in mother's hearts. It's a very special love... I left my family behind in other country and caused my mother and family to suffer, so much grief. No. A perfect master concept doesn't square. Imagine. Is taht Love?

You'll be surprised in how rewarding it's to be honest with ourselves. Lying only take us to believe we're free when in reality we are not. What if ALL what you BELIEVE with your mind wasn't true?

You come here for a reason. Why?

I have no fears and my life is just fine without him. How can you explain that? Slavitud to ANYTHING, even an idea like yours equal to servitude. Real freedom exists. Remember before meeting Rat? We could have been just fine without him. A shame we were trapped. I believe people seek religions for answers to question that NEVER are going to be answered. Why not learn how to live without crutches?

I wish you the best.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:51:12 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: A JEWEL from bellow
Subject: just keep reading and posting here chris.....nt
Message:
sdfbbad
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:44:57 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: A JEWEL from bellow
Subject: Talk about your straw men...
Message:
SB (and Chris):

I missed this. This was someone who posted on the forum? Someone we knew? I don't think you have to equate Maharaji to Jim Jones in order to see he's a fraud, so that condition is something of a straw man. The bottom line is that he's nothing special in the spiritual department, so it makes no sense to follow him. None.

I'm ambivalent about Jesus. I find lots of fault with the biblical account of things, and am not sure we know what he actually said since the gospels were written long after. The whole episode may have been wishful thinking combined with some historical facts and rumor. Ultimately the figure that emerges 'fits' the long term social evolution that ended the Roman Empire and began the modern era, so it's reasonable to conclude that 'Jesus' represents the spirit of this long term transformation, if nothing else. Then again, he could have been real in every detail... or most importantly in terms of the resurrection. That shroud evidence is half believable. And *if* he actually existed there's the rather convincing evidence of the Apostles. Very few people will die or submit to torture for the sake of something they know to be a lie. So, I don't know... maybe.

But one thing is for sure, there's so little similarity between Jesus and Maharaji *as persons* (assuming the idealized biblical account, which is all we know of him, is real) that Maharaji isn't even a close call. No 'maybe' about him. He's a fraud, pure and simple. Where Jesus was selfless, generous, celebate, honest and courageous (at least the idealized account) Maharaji is selfish, greedy, profligate, dishonest, immoral and cowardly. In short, 9 out of 10 people would make better spiritual leaders than he. He doesn't have to be Jim Jones to be worthy of rejection.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:06:58 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Christian
Subject: jonestown, MJ and our marianne's role. read it
Message:
Katie:
Your friend's emails were very revealing, thanks for posting them, I hope he will share more with us. What he said reminds me of two of the bigest trademarks of dangerous cults, IDOLIZATION, and PARANOIA.
After meeting Marianne in person, I was reading up on the internet about the Larry Layton trial, as I know she was involved in that case, on the defense team for Mr. Layton who was being tried for the murder of Senator Ryan in Jonestown. I have found one article in particular, by Rev. John Moore, who lost two daughters and a grandson in Jonestown. He knew many of the cult members over a period of 10 years, and visited his children and grandson in Jonestown in May 1978. That was the last time he saw them, because they died in the suicide-murder there in November 1978. He believes they died because of the way they IDOLIZED Jim Jones, and were PARANOID about any criticism of Jones or his organization. He maintains that without those two factors, Jonestown could never have happened.
When I was a premie, I was really annoyed by any comparisons to Jonestown. I thought the comparisons were unfair, but the more I read about Jonestown, the scarier the similarities seem. Sure, there are differences too, but the biggest similarities are not only the idolization and paranoia, but also similarities between the People's Temple members and the premies. They were often nice, kind, idealistic people, just like many of the premies I know. They also would not question their master, and would not tolerate criticism, and made every kind of excuse for him. They paid for that with their lives.
Even if we are to believe that M. would never do anything deadly (dead premies don't send checks, and a dead guru can' t enjoy his yacht, cars, planes and Malibu mansion), where IS this all going? The potential for abuse is very great. The abuse your friend describes is a red flag. Jones was also abusive.
M. is now lying on his website by saying he never claimed he was divine, and at the same time, is curently telling the premies to ''NEVER DOUBT the purity of the Master'', to sing Arti ''and MEAN it'', to not go through the darshan line ''...because your mommy told you you should, but only if you are ready to show some real RESPECT''. And lets not forget the return of the ''paranoia satsangs''.
Meanwhile, he is being introduced as a new-agey meditation teacher to aspirants, who are then carfully cultivated to be receptive into believing he is something more, as they ''progress'' in practicing his ''Knowlege''. M. may not be Jim Jones, but he certainly knows Jones's techniques. Jones said and did some beautiful and generous things too, to lure people into his power. He got people to idolize him. Then came the ''paranoia satsangs''.
In John Moore's article, he mentions our very own Marianne Bachers by name. Marianne, it must have been horrible for you to be collecting that information about Jonestown, and seeing the similarity between People's Temple members and your premie friends, to the extent that many of them idolize their Master, and are paranoid of any criticism of him, and the way they make excuses to rationalize anything he does, and the covering up for the lies and the secrecy surrounding him.
Sure premies, there are differences, but there are way too many similarities for anyone looking at it rationally to feel comfortable about. I used to brush off comparisons with Jonestown, but I have to remind myself, the Peoples Temple members were also following an ideal, and felt they were safe. They also left ''no room for doubt in their minds''. They didn't see it coming, they believed it wouldn't, couldn't happen to them. They were fatally wrong.
For anyone interested in reading about John Moore talking about ''what went wrong'' that caused his two daughters and grandson to lose their lives, here is the link.
[the link is below in the thread by disculta, about her instructor friend's nauseating experience. it is posted by chuck sprague early in the list and reads the same as this posting but the link is embedded in the last three words of his text, which i could not transfer over here by simple cut copy and paste.
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 05:31:55 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: janet
Subject: jonestown, MJ and our marianne's role. read it
Message:
Hi janet. Yes, working on Larry Layton's case was very, very intense for me, even though I'd been well out of the cult for over 5 years by that time. Although John Moore said I was co-counsel in the first trial, I was also co-counsel in Larry's second trial too.

In order to prepare for the trials, we conducted the most thorough investigation of PT. The hardest thing for most of us on the defense team to deal with was the deaths of all the young children. I had dreams in which I walked around Jonestown with a tape recorder, interviewing the kids, asking them if they liked it there. Every single one of them in the dreams told me they loved it. Then I'd see them all lined up with their mothers and fathers as the cyanide was handed out. It was a horrifying dream.

John and Barbara Moore were/are wonderful people. They were committed to progressive social causes and lived their lives consistent with those beliefs. Their two oldest daughters ended up being members of the highest echelons of PT, and were lovers of Jim Jones. Rev. Moore and his wife saw the good that PT and Jones were doing, but were blinded to the evil, just like many other politicians and community activists in San Francisco, California and beyond. Unfortunately, the support that Rev. Moore and his wife gave to PT and Jones contributed to his credibility in the eyes of the PT members. They visited Jonestown in the months just before the mass suicide and did not grasp Jones' mental deterioration or the problems that were brewing beneath the surface of the community. Their daughters were in the leadership and were not about to say anything. They were hoodwinked like so many others. And they suffered a terrible loss.

I did not know that Rev. Moore mentioned me in this article. Thank you for mentioning it.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 08:39:22 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Marianne
Subject: People's Temple members, premies, real people...
Message:
Hi Marianne.

That was errie, your dreams about interviewing the children who died in Jonestown. Doing your reseach about People's Temple must have made them very real to you. John Moore described the PT members in his sermon, which he gave only a week after his daughters and grandson died:

''Jonestown people were human beings. Except for your caring relationship with us, Jonestown would be names, 'cultists,' 'fanatics,' 'kooks.' Our children are real to you, because you know and love us. Barbara and I could describe for you many of the dead. You would think that we were describing people whom you know, members of our church. If you can feel this, you can begin to relate to the tragedy.''

As a premie, I believed the Jonestown People must have been kooks. But as I have read more about them, they sound more like people. And when I read about how so many of them were in denial about Jim Jones, and how they covered up for his dishonest dealings and scandals, how they made excuses for his every excess and abuse, they sound like, well... premies.

I know the premies look to the DIFFERENCES between Mahraji and Jim Jones, and find comfort in that. I did. And there are many. I don't deny it. There is no harm in looking at the differences.

But now that I am no longer involved with M., I have been more willing to look at the similarities, like both of them claiming to be ''divine'', then lying about it, while still playing the divine game in private. The mysterious finances, shaking people down for money, the hidden scandals, secrets, the idolization and paranoia, while maintaining an outward respectability. It's frighting. The denial and lack of critical thinking practiced by PT members and Premies is perhaps the most frightning similarity of all.

While M. may never do anything like a suicide-murder trip, the potential, the POWER is there to do SOMETHING. So what if it's different from Jonestown in some ways? Something different may happen. The potential for abuse of that kind of power over people is great. Where is Maharaji going with this power he holds over so many people?

Rev. Moore said:

''It was Jim Jones' ability to consolidate power in his own hands, and his followers' willingness to let him do it that led to the mass murder-suicide. Concentration of power is the greatest threat to freedom.''

That is what is wrong with the concept of ''The Master''. That's what's wrong when Maharaji says things like ''NEVER DOUBT the purity of The Master''.

Gary Epton had quoted part of Rev. Moore's report below in another thread, and it's worth repeating here:

''Idolatry is to place one's ultimate trust in that which is not ultimate, and to give one's elemental loyalty to people or ends that are undeserving of such loyalty, and to cherish above all else that which is unworthy. The challenge to all of us is to expose the gods that are not God as we continue on the journey of faith.''

I'm sorry if this has all been said on the forum before. I just hate it when people say the only similarity with Jim Jones and M. is that people trusted them both. It's not that simple, there is more. And if anyone really is going to compare the two, they should look at it ALL. The differences tell a story too, and they by no means make the similarities any less significant.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:05:27 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Here be the link
Message:
http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~remoore/jonestown/truth.html
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:28:54 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Just received that famous article !
Message:
I’ve just received my brand new copy of the ‘Rolling Stone’ magazine, dated March 14, 1974, thanks to some crazy American collector and exes friends.

You know, that famous one with that article ‘The Little Guru Without a Prayer’. 8 pages of texts, lots of pictures and the famous ‘Divine Light Comics’ - ‘Spiritual Hamburgers’ - with Jonathon Livingston Shri-Gull . Huge article.

Everything on the Houston Astrodome non-event, k session and the techniques explained, the divine family etc, the whole story !

Can’t tell you more for the moment. It’ll take me some time to scan the whole thing, but keep an eye on EPO, you’ll be informed when it’s online …….

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 13:26:49 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Just received that famous article !
Message:
Great, the more information on the web the better! The world is a better place for poor unsuspecting people when the truth is told...
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:43:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: yes!! good going
Message:
That and the Penthouse article were things I had always meant to research. Am so glad you found them.
Can he find Rolling Stones articles really easily I am looking for one has nothing to do with M or not directly [snicker]

It's Fear and Loathing at Elko by Hunter S. Thompson written sometime late 80s early 90s. Just thought I'd ask. No biggie. I should not be so lazy.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:45:03 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yes!! good going
Message:
I don't always get it, yeap. :0

It's Fear and Loathing at Elko by Hunter S. Thompson written sometime late 80s early 90s. Just thought I'd ask.

what is this about? Why are you naming this guy? Was he ever related to lard? I saw for the first time one of his movies. What a guy. We have neurons to spear? All that acid and still ok?
lol

Hi Selene, happy to 'see' you happy.:)

SB

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:08:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Hunter S Thompson I'm OT again
Message:
How to explain him? He is one of my favorite authors. but not for everyone. I seriously doubt he was even involved in any way with M but would not doubt he knew about him. Timothy Leary was his neighbor in Aspen.
He started out in journalism, wrote for Sports Illustrated, got 'turned on' or got otherwise wacked in the 70's and became a feature writer for Rolling Stone. The movie you probably saw was made from his novel (?) called Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. I thought they did a fair job of the movie loved Johnny Depp but the movie didn't do credit to his bizarre writing. He has a lot of other books.
I doubt the Elko article has anything directly to do with M I am looking for it for someone else, it is a parady on our justice system and I *think* a sideways spoof on the Anita Hill Clarence Thomas mess. I think.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:19:58 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hunter S Thompson I'm OT again too lol
Message:
I thought that it ment something. You know my favorite theme around here. hehehehehe

My other half used to idealized this guy and has his books too. Maybe someday I'll have time to read them. I'm intrigued by his persona and the concepts he presents. Which one can you recommend? Freedom is the key to become satisfied with ourselves and the guy surely seem to have reached it; he's a riot. Buddha said 84,000 ways to realization. Whatever rocks your boat seems to be the way? No killing and good morals, of course. :0

'if you want to be happy nothing can stop you' is a quote I read somewhere and I tried to remember it when Lard's brainwashing surfaces and I seem to get 'stacked' emotionally.

Now is not OT. hahahahahaha...

love 2 u

sb

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:31:05 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Hunter S Thompson OT y lol
Message:
hmmm well.. I suppose if you liked the movie then Fear and loathing in Las Vegas is a good one to read but I would suggest you see if he has The Great Shark Hunt as it is excerpts from many of his magazine articles and also his books. A fav quote from there and this Makes Us On Topic Again! The quote is something like In a world ruled by swine all pigs are upwardly mobile ja is M no?
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:42:28 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hunter S Thompson OT y lol
Message:
Have you finished eating already. I'm just about to. The movie version of Fear and Loathing was terrific but nothing like the book which is impossible to film just like Naked Lunch could not be filmed but they made a good movie but not like the book.

Burroughs is essential reading for anyone who thinks they may have looked into the jaws of hell as I think you and SB and I have done. Reading Naked Lunch (the only one worth reading) and Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas made me realize that I wasn't as nuts as I thought I was eventhough I had seen mental agonies that seemed even worse than theirs.

PatC, still crazy after all these years but at least I'm now back to being carzy in MY own way not leashed to a master palying bow wow worship and adore doggie.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 03:06:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: yeah finished - wasn't really hungry
Message:
sheesh :) I wonder why? ha,
only saw the Naked Lunch movie which I doubt did the book credit.

You captured what I loved about HST he made me feel not alone in my insanity or maybe sane in an insane world at a time I really needed it desperately. I read him in those years when M wasn't touring much I did a lot of growth in those 80s years when M wasn't around much, got my career together, lots of writing.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 03:33:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I'm back but only till dessert
Message:
I just ate the adrenal gland or was it the pineal gland. LOL.

Thank god for writers. I hope to talk to you about writing one day but maybe not here. Too OT.

PatC who knew I was nuts when I found out I was a fag at 14. Who in their right mind would chose that?

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:41:29 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: lol
Message:
Hilarious. I wish there were 48 hours in a day! I like too many things and I'm having so much fun...

(Come to visit us. Both of you. Get out of the heat. I can stay in his house and you have my home for both of you. Don't you need a vacation? This place is NICE)

+ luv
sb (I'm leaving soon the pc, got to work around here)

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 03:08:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: thanks for the invite sb ot
Message:
I'm still wrestling with 2 trips planned this summer, trying to work out the time off work and all, but let's talk.

I have to go too am spacing out on here and have to do things.

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Date: Fri, May 25, 2001 at 17:04:26 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Ok. I say it: ANYTIME. ot
Message:
JM is going to tell you that I'm nuts, but you really know me.

LOL

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:36:14 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: alleluya! LOL
Message:
Did you read my mail? I offered you something. Do you want it?
He will never abandon me; I continue to receive invitations. aughh

Write if you want it, would you? Thanks for all you do.

Love to you,

sb

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:13:27 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Praise the Lord! What a find! (nt)
Message:
;lkj
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:31:04 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Glad II was here to hear the news - well done! (nt
Message:
You naughty boy!
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:26:48 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Have You Heard ... ? (rewrite)
Message:

Have you heard...?


    Have you heard what they say about Randy?
    ('Was he once a nice sort of chap,
    'till he fell in with that jabberandi,
    that serpent who lies to entrap?')

    Randy was hooked in at the beginning,
    he's one of the last to get out,
    tho' he knows there's been deaths & much sinning
    and spinning to fool the devout

    There's been bald-faced lying about children,
    whose parents were caught in the fraud,
    -- sex toys for the Master's chief henchman;
    Jagdeo does stick in the craw.

    Except of Randy and Judy. Their ploy's
    -- to muddy the case we record.
    The testaments, the feelings of ex-toys
    they deny and trash for their Lord.

    They've been part of the lies and the scheming,
    covered over crimes by the score.
    Trapped dreamers who lie in their dreaming,
    their Master yet leaching for more.

    We have words for both Judy and Randy.
    There's no God nor law on their side,
    tho' there's lots been played almost as dandy
    could help them recover their pride.

    But Maharaji has squandered all chances,
    He has thieved and fucked like a lout.
    He sees an angry Kali now dances,
    And His time is fast running out.


JohnT
- never a premie
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:44:50 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:
One of my best friends in the world, who wants to remain anon for a little longer, but reads here and will soon post, sent me these e-mails about the experience of being an instructor for Maharaji. After the first one, I asked his permission to post it, and he sent me the second, plus permission.

Warning, this is powerful stuff:

First letter:

'There was a lot I liked in 5. Talk of the goings on at Amaroo made me feel a bit ill. The whole vibe of a middle school prom and the jealousies and social hegemony spured on by position and power plays... Yech, my attachment to that crap is still pretty strong, and was in fact a useful tool in extricating myself from the cult. The goings on at instructor trainings brought up more sucky feelings in me than I could stand. Some of it was truly terrible. Once, during a heated disscussion over the value of Psychology, during a break, a particular instuctor approached me at lunch with the most venemous look on his face. He started yelling at me in the lunchroom projecting his lifes hate for anything smacking of self examination, targeting me out of his belief that I was one of those secretly against Maraji because I dealt with such things in my personal work. (In the conference, Maraji bit Psych. and anyone who practiced any form of it in the ass pretty hard) Now this guy had his opportunity to vent years of hatred on me, somehow missing the fact that we we're in the same room together, ostensibly for the same purpose. A lot of people were castigated at that conference, anyone who dealt with ' the mind' OOOOga booooga! Funny, the one forum letter talks of how regimented the programs and speakers had become... That was Loring Bakers -and a number of others- greatest criticism of me as an instructor; that I was too much myself, too much of me was in the presentation! (maybe that's because I cannot get up and speak to anybody like an automaton!) Whew, I can still feel my anger over that! Well, in fact, a lot of the anger I developed over that kind of poop gave me the strength to split. I wish your latvian get together was at another time, later in the summer.'

Second letter:

'I guess the point of my expressing it is, how ironic it is that M. who speaks eloquently of how things fit together so beautifully in nature and life, seeks in his own personality, to divide and conquer in order to control. While trashing the study of psychology, and denigrating anyone involved with it, he created a division amongst the instructors that demonized those who had inclinations or experience there, that created deep levels of mistrust. In fact, his personality, like anyone's, was obviously run by the same defense mechanisms we all have. And like most, he seemed oblivious to them. All this was going on around the time of great family difficulty, as it was apparent in his sarcastic remarks that he and Marolyn were having problems. I believe that it was recommended that they get counseling. I think he resented that. Thus, all Psychologists were 'bad'. Pretty basic stuff. Actually, in hindsight, I remember - between bouts of anger that he would do that - feeling both surprised and sad that the 'Lord' would have a personality so riddled with defensivness. What was he so insecure about? But I dissmissed all that quickly, feeling guilty myself for even attempting to understand the 'divine personality' in the same terms as I would anyone else. A number of other instructors however, came up to me and let me know they felt M. was dismissive and in fact needed help, and were talking to someone close enough to him to see if he could be convinced to receive counseling. Many others of course saw that as crass arrogance, and I was too confused by my own unwillingness to admit that what I was seeing was true. I was too insecure myself in M.'s presence to trust my own intelligence. Therefore, I denied and denied, casting myself into a terrible inner turmoil. I cried at night sometimes, to ease the pressure of fighting within myself over the seeming contradictions I saw. How can his behavior be so ... well, petty? I could understand him having emotional concerns and relationship problems, but to project them amongst his instructors and set them against eachother to fight and act out his own problems? That seemed so like the behavior exhibited in the unhealthy family structures of abusers and alcoholics. The secrets, (there were many) the need for M to be fauned over, ( a lot! ) the parties and such where the competition to be M.'s favorite, or have him notice you was indescribably thick as custard... It made me sick. In fact, after a while of being exposed to it, I hated being around him. My internal pressure increased the more I witnessed his petty behavior and felt the emotional competition among the instructors, the 'family' of M.'s world. Once, I won a contest – I scored highest on an instructor test - and won the 'opportunity' to have lunch with M. I couldn't eat. I couldn't talk to him. He seemed to dislike the whole thing as much as I did. It was all so contrived. There I was, in front of all the other Inst. having jumped highest over a stick, now getting the reward of sitting, with a few other notables, at M's table. People all around the room would turn around to look, as if for that one hour, I was a movie-star, the envy of everyone in the room. Along with the others at the table, I tried to make some small talk to 'open the door' and try to get comfortable. M. was disinterested, stared off in the distance - was somewhere else - and I felt like a big idiot. The whole thing, the pretense of it all was revolting. So I scarfed down my food, got up and left. It took every ounce of courage in me to walk out of that room. Every eye was on me. I had forty five minutes or so of 'bliss time' left, and I walked out on it, walked away from the Lord. The struggle within myself was tearing me apart. Were my perceptions correct? Did M. act like an insecure middle school bully, a hurt child not able to admit to his pain, afraid to simply show everyone his vulnerability and admit it like anyone. Were the other people in the room just being themselves, or was I right in sensing the dysfunctional family dynamics I felt was rampant there. Was I just full of my own shit? Was it all just my projection and I just couldn't handle it? I went outside and broke down, sobbing in disgust and bewilderment, unable to admit that the whole gathering looked and felt like the worst nightmares of my childhood, something I vowed never again to participate in for the rest of my life. Now, here it was again, as the answer to my prayer to serve God. I was heartbroken. At that evening's party, while M was surrounded by adoring women waiting on him hand and foot, lighting his cigeretts, pouring him drinks, and he enjoyed himself by making the guys do stupid humiliating things, again, I questioned myself. Am I just jealous? Is it that I really want those girls to be fauning around me? Again, the same nausea overwhelmed me and I went back to my room. I wanted to be an instructer. I believed in knowledge, but I was deeply disturbed and afraid inside, because I was so confused about M. I juggled that pain for the next three years, giving talks and avoiding M. as much as I could. Yes, if you want, print this.... I feel too sick to my stomach even now to continue writting. More later... Disillusioned.'

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:55:54 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Petty and thick as a custard
Message:
I like that.

Keep it comming.

Great stuff.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:51:47 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: send him our support.we await his arrival greatly
Message:
since you say he reads here, i can address this to him directly:
i hope when you finally reach the decision to 'come out', that you will want to do it under your real world name, that we knew you by. Everything you have inside you to tell, indeed, to spill, will carry that much more ringing power, for you to dump out, and for us to welcome-- and for anyone who knew you in your capacity in the heirarchy. I hope you decide soon. Your years of carrying the junk that was forced on you need not be a private hell. You have friends here. You will be greeted with acceptance and respect and all the genuine human value that you never got when slaving away in the masses.
if you have fear, chuck it. if you have embarrassment, kick it out. if you have pride, then stride right on in. we have a chair reserved here with your name on it, for you, and no one else, when you're ready to walk in and make your presence known. We knew you then, and we would like to get to know you now--as you truly are, for what you WANT to be known as/for.
there is no heirarchy here. that bubble is burst.
donner is just donner. dettmers is just dettmers. I'm myself and you're yourself, and i greet you with equanimity and respect, one adult to another.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:47:13 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: thanks......another friend of mine (nt)
Message:
hh
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:51:58 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: This guy is a looser
Message:
I can't believe it. Here somebody had the opportunity to sit and be completely miserable in the presence of the Master, and he left, just because he was in pain and found Maharaji revolting. Unbelievable. Literally millions of people would crawl accross hot coals for years, just for that gift of being in Maharaji's presence, even if they were excruciatingly uncomfortable the entire time.

Have you heard of MIND?? It's strongest around Maharaji and if you are in dire agony in his presence, and if you find his behavior so nauseating you are about to throw up, it just means knowledge and Maharaji's darshan are working, destroying all the evil, filthy, disgusting impurities inside us. After all, we must understand that without Maharaji, we are nothing more than intestinal parasites that are expelled from stinking, infected bodies in great discharges of diahrea. That Maharaji even acknowledges our existence is due to his supreme love and kindness. As he said so many times, we do not even have the right to look at him, let alone expect that he might glance in our direction.

Yes, we are just parasites begging for the right to exist. Can a parasitic beggar be a chooser? Of course not, you idiot. If Maharaji actis like what seems to us to be the ultimate, uncarring jerk, and that gives us unbelievable, excruciating pain, it's because that's what we need in that moment, and it's so beautiful. Sometimes I stick needles into my face and under my fingernails just so I can be reminded how beautiful it is to be around Maharaji and the PWKs.

I wonder how many more lifetimes this guy will have to wait to have the opportunity to feel such revulsion again. Plus, all of this is just so life-affirming. I mean, like Maharaji says, it's all about being in love with life, the life of an intestinal parasite, that is.

And I LOVE Loring Baker. He is a true manifestation of an evolved intestinal parasite. He and David Smith have mastered the art of being automotons and sounding like they have been lobotomized. I've heard David no longer has any voice inflection left, and cannot even dress himself anymore. Isn't that so beautiful?

And that's the look Maharaji is after for all PWKs, and certainly anyone given the supreme privilege of speaking about knowledge or being an instructor. Otherwise they might be too much 'there' and take away from the dynamism of Maharaji's great speaking abilities. I think Loring is well on his way.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:06:36 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Goddamnit, Pauline, you need a bitch slapping (nt)
Message:
argh!
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:04:37 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: You sadist- hi roger. (nt)
Message:
sb
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:27:51 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Disculta
Subject: Nauseating experiences, IDOLIZATION and PARANOIA
Message:
Katie:

Your friend's emails were very revealing, thanks for posting them, I hope he will share more with us. What he said reminds me of two of the bigest trademarks of dangerous cults, IDOLIZATION, and PARANOIA.

After meeting Marianne in person, I was reading up on the internet about the Larry Layton trial, as I know she was involved in that case, on the defense team for Mr. Layton who was being tried for the murder of Senator Ryan in Jonestown. I have found one article in particular, by Rev. John Moore, who lost two daughters and a grandson in Jonestown. He knew many of the cult members over a period of 10 years, and visited his children and grandson in Jonestown in May 1978. That was the last time he saw them, because they died in the suicide-murder there in November 1978. He believes they died because of the way they IDOLIZED Jim Jones, and were PARANOID about any criticism of Jones or his organization. He maintains that without those two factors, Jonestown could never have happened.

When I was a premie, I was really annoyed by any comparisons to Jonestown. I thought the comparisons were unfair, but the more I read about Jonestown, the scarier the similarities seem. Sure, there are differences too, but the biggest similarities are not only the idolization and paranoia, but also similarities between the People's Temple members and the premies. They were often nice, kind, idealistic people, just like many of the premies I know. They also would not question their master, and would not tolerate criticism, and made every kind of excuse for him. They paid for that with their lives.

Even if we are to believe that M. would never do anything deadly (dead premies don't send checks, and a dead guru can' t enjoy his yacht, cars, planes and Malibu mansion), where IS this all going? The potential for abuse is very great. The abuse your friend describes is a red flag. Jones was also abusive.

M. is now lying on his website by saying he never claimed he was divine, and at the same time, is curently telling the premies to ''NEVER DOUBT the purity of the Master'', to sing Arti ''and MEAN it'', to not go through the darshan line ''...because your mommy told you you should, but only if you are ready to show some real RESPECT''. And lets not forget the return of the ''paranoia satsangs''.

Meanwhile, he is being introduced as a new-agey meditation teacher to aspirants, who are then carfully cultivated to be receptive into believing he is something more, as they ''progress'' in practicing his ''Knowlege''. M. may not be Jim Jones, but he certainly knows Jones's techniques. Jones said and did some beautiful and generous things too, to lure people into his power. He got people to idolize him. Then came the ''paranoia satsangs''.

In John Moore's article, he mentions our very own Marianne Bachers by name. Marianne, it must have been horrible for you to be collecting that information about Jonestown, and seeing the similarity between People's Temple members and your premie friends, to the extent that many of them idolize their Master, and are paranoid of any criticism of him, and the way they make excuses to rationalize anything he does, and the covering up for the lies and the secrecy surrounding him.

Sure premies, there are differences, but there are way too many similarities for anyone looking at it rationally to feel comfortable about. I used to brush off comparisons with Jonestown, but I have to remind myself, the Peoples Temple members were also following an ideal, and felt they were safe. They also left ''no room for doubt in their minds''. They didn't see it coming, they believed it wouldn't, couldn't happen to them. They were fatally wrong.

For anyone interested in reading about John Moore talking about ''what went wrong'' that caused his two daughters and grandson to lose their lives, here is the link.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 04:12:49 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Nauseating experiences, IDOLIZATION and PARANOIA
Message:
I've excerpted the final couple of lines in John Moore's report as an apt admonishment to all who post here:
Idolatry is to place one's ultimate trust in that which is not ultimate, and to give one's elemental loyalty to people or ends that are undeserving of such loyalty, and to cherish above all else that which is unworthy. The challenge to all of us is to expose the gods that are not God as we continue on the journey of faith.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:36:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Jim Jones: a quote from Way's link
Message:
Jeanne Mills, a former member of the People's Temple and subsequent victim of assassination a year following the November 18, 1978 Jonestown suicides/murders of 911 church members, wrote these words:

''When you meet the friendliest people you have ever known, who introduce you to the most loving group of people you've ever encountered, and you find the leader to be the most inspired, caring, compassionate and understanding person you've ever met, and then you learn that the cause of the group is something you never dared hope could be accomplished, and all of this sounds too good to be true, it probably is too good to be true!''

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:20:35 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Powerful indeed
Message:
Thank you dear Disculta for printing this letter. I feel that deep inside we know yet we are torn because we don't want to believe what our guts are telling us. It is a totally dysfuntional situation. I am glad your friend is out and feeling the pain of withdrawing from the whole cult. Send him a big hug.
And also I wish to thank you for your posts, they always help me.
Love,
Mercedes
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:28:11 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:
Hi Katie,

Many thanks to you and your friend for posting this. What courage to get up from m,'s table and walk!

I want to offer him a warm welcome to the forum. It's scary to post at first, but he sounds like he's well and has some stories to tell, too.

I hope you are well, too...take care of yourself (I know you do),
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:15:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Many thanks, sweetie dahling, and to your friend
Message:
for posting these letters. Please invite him to have a mini Pigeon Fanciers' Night with us if he is in SF later this summer.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:58:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Wow. ***Best of J-M?***
Message:
That's powerful stuff Katie. Thanks to your friend for writing it and letting you put it up.

It captures the atmosphere around the Captain very accurately- lots of performing monkies squabbling for a seat at the Captain's table. It also confirms what everyone tells us about his personality.

Your friend was brave to get up and leave the table. All power to her (him).

I hope she (he) starts posting soon.

Thanks again,
Anth, it brought it all back.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:31:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Thanks !!! ***** Keep tagging them
Message:
I have a lot to catch up, but I keep saving them .....
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:13:44 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Former Instructor
Subject: The fear, arrogance, defensiveness
Message:
I agree that this is a ***BEST OF FORUM***.

Thank you for writing this chronical of life with M. I'm sure it is difficult for you to revisit these intense emotions but I hope it is cathartic and healing. You have justified my own feeling that M is fearful, arrogant and defensive. Anyone who needs to ridicule and diminish another's experience so much, must be a small person indeed. The thing that I could not except in M, eventually, was his arrogance that he knew what was what even though it was obviously not true. I don't mean his certainty about himself or K but his obvious need to feel better than everyone else.

The closer one gets to M, apparently from what you and others have posted here, the less of a human being he seems to be.

Please do continue to bring this Forum and all who monitor it more of your valuable insights.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:38:52 (GMT)
From: jim boeger
Email: jimboeger@hotmail.com
To: Disculta
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:
disculta.after almost 30years of trying to 'practice Knowledge' i feel that i am very qualified to say that i think i have recently realized that a very big obstacle for me has been my own timidity which is FEAR.......which i think you could say is caused by DOUBT...SELF-DOUBT.....LACK OF FAITH....whatever you want to call it. at Montrose 1972, New York,1972, i had opportunities to converse with Mr. Rawat, then still a child. one time i was alone with him at the New York ashram brownstone i think on 83rd streeet, the top floor. i had been doing service arranging the charter flight information for the trip to India Hans Jayanti '72. i was 20........ i was terrified. i always have had a certain amount of stage fright. so i wasn't able to be myself with him. i don't think i can blame that on him.
just the other day i participated in a cross country premie conference call. it was so boring and tedious, i was in agony. but did i open my mouth? sadly, no i did not. i sat there and allowed myself to suffer. can i blame someone for that? we allow our thoughts to repress us and then we suffer. at this time it seems Mr. R is conducting propagation trainings to help people understaznd how to propagate. that was the subject of the call..we had just watched a satellite broadcast of the last day of the last amaroo program wherein M said that 50,000 aspirants FROM THE DELHI AREA were expected at the next Delhi program. listening to the American premies talk about the need to learn how to propagate. not one word was mentioned about propagation in India.i just felt like screaming at them 'didn't you hear what he just said to a worldwide audience not more than an hour ago? 50,000 aspirants from Delhi alone!!!' i held my tongue. i said nothing. i just sat there and felt angry. now i'm fairly sure that ONE word would have changed my experience completely. i could have calmly said 'India'. i could have whispered it....
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:20:56 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: The fear was instilled by rawat. Dont blame
Message:
yourself. It is not some fault of yours, this 'timidity'
is a product of the cult. Always you have had to repress
all YOUR desires and impulses.
Same with the rest of us here. Stick around, you will find
yourself helped here.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:17:54 (GMT)
From: wolfie
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: too many millions and more.....
Message:
Hi Jim,

when I received k in 73, they told us M has millions of followers around the world. I think you can hear it in this film Satguru has come.
Somehow this statements you talk about, make us feel guilty. There are 50000 people waiting in India, and in the rest of the world there are 500 people waiting, so come on premies move your asses.
More we learn to speak about knowledge from his special trainers, more fear gets involved. I can honestly say, this fear around M nearly made me sick till I started to go away. How should I care for my 'soul' if I can't care for my own nature.

Anyway India is too faraway from my understanding, and maybe they like it so much and the same people come again and again and nobody checks it properly. So he has millions of followers in India since the beginning.
Maybe he has a competition with his brother, anyway sooner or later, they depart India into Satpalis and Elan Vitalis ( this is a joke!) But 1000 000 000 people in India, there is so much heartbraking service to do.

take it easy....that's the trick Marolyn once said in a Satsang......yeah .... who cares..no fun ...no love..no nothing!

ciao.......wolfie

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:19:46 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:
Hi Jim,

There is real life after K. Whatever you do, remember he brainwashed you in many ways and taht your subconscient mind is full of traps. Reason and you will not go back. I wish you well. Make yourself strong and forget about him. Is not easy for me at times but is getting better and better.

The best for you,

Love,

SB

PS: Lard sucks! He is sick.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:28:50 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Interesting post from Jim
Message:
DearJim,

I found your post interesting - we were all and many still are like the children in The King's New Clothes. We are too afraid to speak up. But the little urchin did and we are the brave ones that do speak up. I'm going to be tuning in to a conference call very soon just because i'm Soooooo curious!

One thing I didn't really understand was your reference to India. Obviously Americans aren't falling for the same drivel but could you elaborate about your comment 'India'when conferencees were trying their damndest to learn how to propogate (poor buggers).

Thanks,

Curious George

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:21:22 (GMT)
From: know
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Interesting post from Jim
Message:
there are not 50,000 in Delhi but in India.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:51:50 (GMT)
From: jim boweger
Email: jimboeger@hotmail.com
To: know
Subject: Interesting post from Jim
Message:

WRONG.DID YOU WATHCHJ TEH STATTELLITTE ROADCAST SUNDAY.J JHE SAID 'frOM THE DELHI AREA' IM PRETTY SURELY 100% POSITIVELY NOT GUILTY. OF MISTAKEN NIMISREPRESENTATIONALISMS

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:17:57 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: jim B
Subject: dont believe their math. it's never true.
Message:
dare yourself to break the taboo and speak up next time. take notes or keepa scorecard thruout f all the things you find wrong. start acting on those thoughts and impulses and reactions you get to all the crap.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:58:54 (GMT)
From: Moldy_warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: jim boeger
Subject: Hello Jim... hang on in here... it gets better! nt
Message:
x
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:49:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: On the other hand...
Message:
if you're saying that it's time for you to speak up, and talk about your own concerns and misgivings, then I agree that it can make all the difference. In the end the decision is yours, but in this case it's not your doubts that you need to fear. It's your unwillingness to examine them.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:46:12 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: This isn't about stage fright.
Message:
Jim:

I don't think this instructor was burdened with stage fright or lack of faith (although he clearly became disillusioned). He may have been slightly in awe of M at close range, but mainly what he's talking about is the degree to which Maharaji fell short, not only of his expectations of a leader but of a decent well-balance human being. It occurs to me that he's provided us with another way to tell *good* charisma from *bad*. Look at the way the 'leader' manages the relationships around him. If they seem like amplifications of his own dysfunctions then perhaps you're dealing with someone who isn't even *trying* to be an adult (and has lost the charm of youth).

This all reminds me of something I read in Plato's *Republic* about the motivations of a tyrant. Essentially he felt that a tyrant is motivated by the need to appear to control all of their own desires. Note this isn't to *give vent* to them, but to be self-assured that all desires are under the individual's control. Being out of control is the enemy. The situation Maharaji seems to set up around his person is a way of convincing himself that he's in control. The fact that he can't control himself is something he *needs* to overlook.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:18:55 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: TO: Scott T.
Message:
Hi Scott,

You wrote:

This all reminds me of something I read in Plato's *Republic* about the motivations of a tyrant. Essentially he felt that a tyrant is motivated by the need to appear to control all of their own desires. Note this isn't to *give vent* to them, but to be self-assured that all desires are under the individual's control. Being out of control is the enemy. The situation Maharaji seems to set up around his person is a way of convincing himself that he's in control. The fact that he can't control himself is something he *needs* to overlook.

It is no mystery to me now why I was so vulnerable to the Maharajism cult. The above clearly describes my father and Maharaji. I take responsibility now for my vulnerabilities then, yet will never let anyone, especially m or my father, ever oppress me again.

I don't know where jim is coming from or why he posted. All I know is that I am quite familiar with living under tyranny. My father was a tyrant of the 1st degree, and my greatest desire as a premie was to be close to Maharaji, who I have now discovered is a tyrant with a MISSION.

Both taught me how to hate. Both taught me I was worthless. Both used and abused me. When I became physically close to Maharaji I noticed my anxiety level rise; at the same time, premies told me how ''blissed out'' I looked because I spoke with him every day. Later on I saw him every day, up close and personal. I may have felt blissed out on some plane but the anxiety and stress of pleasing that creep was beyond any reasonable expectations (his).

Both tyrants in my life rejected me, my father did it through a lifetime of heinous abuse and forcing me out of the house at age 19 to fend for myself; then Maharaji threw me away like so much unusable trash after my DECA burnout.

I look from a different perspective now and can say that being around m was no picnic. He is a tyrant and must be in order to stay completely in control.

The joke on both is that I can live my life very well without either. I can see through their lies and I have healed through (most) of the woundings.

Living well is the best revenge. It's just that after being around tyrants all my life, I have had to learn (an ongoing thing) what ''living life well'' really means.

Thanks for your post,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:25:59 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC
Message:
very hurt before and during his days in the cult. I just hope he comes back and talks it out with us and heals himself.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:28:21 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC
Message:
Pat:

It's odd. Early on, before I was a premie, while I was still an aspirant, I wasn't intimidated by Maharaji at all. In fact, I wasn't particularly intimidated until I began to soak in all of the awe the premies had for him. I've also noticed in Toastmasters that I was a rather fearless public speaker until someone started counting my 'uhms' and 'ahs' and I began to get really nervous, and lost my taste for it. I also had the problem that the system they used to communicate the time left was color coded, and being color blind I got badly burned on that deal. As a result, I quit going to Toastmasters. So, I get derailed as soon as circumstances start to make me self-conscious. Still, I'm a blabbermouth, so nothing keeps me down for long.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:01:07 (GMT)
From: JIM BOEGER
Email: JIMBOEGER@HOTMAIL.COM
To: Scott T.
Subject: I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC
Message:

SCOTT. i was curious why you ....oh well, didn't yyuu ever hear of stage fright. it can hppen in front of a cdrrdcrecrewoedcroewdcrowd or just one person it's an enery thing. your remarks are interesting. makes me think that what yoyu exoeperienced was even more remarkable. if you're generally not nervous, then something was doing it too you. righty? jim b
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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 17:30:28 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: JIM BOEGER
Subject: I know Jim and he needs a lot of TLC
Message:
Jim:

Ultimately I think I pretty much had to be 'doing it' to myself. However, recognition of that is probably necessary to having an effect on the phenomenon, or counteracting the immobilization that occurs. No, I don't think there's any evidence that I was acted on intentionally and purposefully from the outside. More like we're programmed to behave this way under certain circumstances... and ultimately we can override our programming, or allow it to be more controlling than it ought to be.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 09:24:12 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: you're a highly intelligent blabbermouth, at that!
Message:
for which i am repeatedly grateful.i soak up your posts like pure oxygen.
your surname fits you. it must be an inherited family attribute.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 11:42:25 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: family traits (ot)
Message:
Janet:

My cousin, Bruce Talkington, had a personna very much like Robbin Williams. In fact, he was a close friend of Williams, and won several emmies in his own right as creator of the Winnie the Pooh and Gummy Bears cartoon series for Disney. (Bruce died suddenly about six months ago, of as yet unknown causes.) The thing is, neither of us started out with the surname 'Talkington.' We both changed our names to that of our maternal grandfather, Wayne, in the 1970s, who was a profound influence on both of us. Gramps was anything but talkative. In fact, his nickname was 'Budge,' because of his resolute fortitude (whicn some people saw as just plain stubborness). We loved him a great deal, warts and all.

--Scott

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:12:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Hi Jim, nice to see you here
Message:
Are you the Jim I know? Certainly sounds like it. Now see, as I've told you before, the way to get rid of that fear is to turn on the master who's got that leash so tight around your little neck and go ''WOOF! GRRR! Get the fuck off my back and out of my life or I will pee on your leg.''

Good luck.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 17:21:15 (GMT)
From: jim
Email: see somewherealready
To: PatC
Subject: Hi Jim, nice to see you here
Message:
welll darling. i triedwanted to get back to you yesterday6 but everytime i tried to get onto the post, thje fuckig theing would say you kjust did dosomething illeganl and would shut coswn ymnmy computer and id have to start ita lll alll aoover again. so i did tha three times and agave upl iklmmmm im so hjappy to be on line it's realh in credilble. a firend jave me this compyuter just oyut onf f the ble lblbleubnbvbbb bljunb blue. and im having a goooodkk time..i think the pot ios ios is helping alot l i would have to sya i think you have belhelped me alot toeeelllfo i mean too. so im lookijng forward to seeing youa tat at futeure cult meetings. bythe way. km, the premies shut down icity forest lodge last sunday, with me being the only dissenting botbovote. its going to he interesting to see what happens nowl. jim
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:03:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: jim boeger
Subject: Excuse me jim
Message:
hi there jim,

this may sound a bit daft, and forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, so to speak, but are you telling us here that our problems come from our own doubt and lack of trust of the Perfect Master?

I can't quite tell from reading your letter where you're coming from jim. Are you a premie? If so, why are you posting here?

Anth the muddled.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:21:25 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: My God, what an utter hell, a sad, sad story
Message:
of emotional desolation. That brother's story epitomizes the discord, the disconnect, between the words, the actions, the feelings and the results in that nasty world.

Mariachi has built up SUCH a wall of separation, and tries to thrive in an arid world devoid of simple genuineness and personal, companionable feeling.

Oh, he maybe he can speak about simplicity quite glibly (or incoherently), but to actually extend simple, common, decent fellow-feelings to his fellow creatures, without guile or manipulation . . . why, it seems this just isn't allowed, what with being the Lord and all.

Look what's gone to his head: I Am God Almighty On Earth, Above And Beyond All Other People. Other People Are Basically Foul And Very Much Beneath Me. They Should Give Me Unquestioned Loyalty And Practically All Their Money. And Their Fresh Nubile Blond Young Bodies.

He may actually believe it all, poor sod.

He may need counseling more than anyone else on the planet, a major, cathartic upheaval, and become as born again. (Not in the evangelical way, although wouldn't that be a hoot?)

Yeah, he and Tony Soprano should go into intensive therapy. For panic attacks.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:19:16 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Appreciate your friend letting you post these!
Message:
I was too insecure myself in M.'s presence to trust my own
intelligence. Therefore, I denied and denied, casting myself into a terrible inner turmoil.

Sheesh, can I ever relate! I hope your friend will feel comfortable enough to post here soon. He is able to describe the his feelings about it so clearly..

It's very true what he said about the descriptions of the dynamic around M resembling an alcoholic/abusive family, only on a greatly enlarged scale. I was also trying to escape that dynamic when I started following M, but, as I'm sure you know, we go towards what feels comfortable to us - the extended play version, in this case!

Also, I agree that it's difficult to get rid of one's attachment to the power plays. I, thankfully, was never close enough to Maharaji to participate in it, but I did do unkind things to other premies I was close to because I *wanted* to be closer to what I felt was the inner circle (in this case, the ashram premies - snicker). I also still have twinges of those feelings about my own family dynamic - sort of ridiculous at my age, but it's very deeply programmed in me. And I also get sick to my stomach (literally) when I think about it.

Thanks, Katie, and thanks to your friend as well.
Love,
Katie H.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:17:36 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Thank you for this testimony!
Message:
I can understand so much of what's been expressed here.

I hope he/she comes out and shares a bit more ....

Hope he/she's not too depressed !!

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:18:24 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Can you post a link to the French article svp?
Message:
Bonjour Jean-Michel,

J'etais offline quand tu posted the original et je missed it.

Hope all is well with you, Paris and les malades animaux.
a bientot

Anth le fromage de tete.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 23:32:52 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Which one ?
Message:
everything is on the French forum ....

I'll keep a copy of the magazine for you !

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:28:14 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thank you for this testimony!
Message:
RE Jean-Michel's comment, 'I hope he/she's not too depressed' He's not depressed at all. He's been 'out' for at least 13 years, and hardly remembered the whole thing until I insisted he look at the forum. I just want to say that he has an incredible, creative life full of all kinds of service work, creative expression and personal love, and is a very cheerful guy. It was just the effort of dredging this stuff that got him a bit pissy, but I think he sort of enjoys it, too, because it is quite catthartic. It's cathartic for me just to read it!
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:36:45 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Catharsis
Message:
Hey Disculta,
Just reading what your friend had to say has brought up ALL kinds of feelings in me - yes, catharsis.

One thing I particularly remember is the overwhelming feeling of anxiety I had at festivals/events. Events were the closest that I got to being around M, and while I was there I was constantly putting myself down and judging myself because I wasn't in 'that place' or having 'that feeling'. (I actually knew people who went to festivals and relaxed and had a good time - not me! In fact, I judged THEM too!)

I am thankful that I never was an instructor, a PAM, or anything like that - I can't imagine.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:46:13 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Catharsis
Message:
I know what you mean darling Katie! The social anxiety of the cult is one of the things that I occasionally still dream of. I was involved in assigned seating - it was often my service. I loved having a seat up front, but there was so much in-fighting and wrangling for seats and importance. I remember one year at Hans Jayanti in Kissimmee, when it was my service to get the huge assigned seating thing organized, Raja Ji printed up assigned seating passes and gave them to all his rich friends, creating havoc and trouble for me. Then I became the official 'enemy' of RJ and co for a while - but I was just trying to do my assigned service. It was crazy-making.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:02:38 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: The Katies
Subject: Seating Anxiety
Message:
I still have dreams about getting a seat at a program, believe it or not, 20 years later. That horrible feeling of being left out, of not getting close enough. There was SOOOOO much anxiety around that. I don't dream about anything else that went on at the programs, just that fight to get a good place and how you had to step on everybody else to get it. That really caused a lot of trauma for me (and a lot of others, it seems). It's sad to hear that it still goes on.

Just goes to show how deeply ingrained was our belief that he was Lord. If we didn't really feel that, it wouldn't have mattered so much, would it?

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:19:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Dreams
Message:
Joy, I can relate. I never was able to get a good seat at a program, so thankfully I don't dream about it. I still have dreams about forgetting to drop a class in college and having to take a final exam in something I know nothing about at the last minute - after 20 years! (My student workers get really upset when I tell them this - they think graduating will stop those dreams!)

Don't know if seating anxiety proves that we thought he was Lord - it is sort of a group mentality of everyone thinking that it's REALLY important to get closer, and it feeds on itself.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:38:38 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Dreams
Message:
I still dream that I haven't studied for my 'A' levels (British High School graduation exams that seem about equivalent to a US college degree!). In actuality I did my usual last minute cramming and did great, but somehow that part of my brain has not met the part that is terrified of blowing it. This dream happens about once a year, and I have to wake up and talk to myself: you got straight A's, you passed the exams, it's alright.

Then a year or so later it happens again. I think that this and the premie social anxiety dreams are my only recurring dreams. Well, there is an occasional recurrence every few years of a small fat personage, but still the overwhelming feeling is the stress of trying to get closer to him in a litter of other mawling premie kittens.

I only recently found out that this exam panic dream is a very common thing, when I told my mom about it (she was a university teacher) and she said, Oh yes, we all have those dreams. Who knew? Where are the books about this? Who has done the studies. Maybe we can get a grant.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:52:38 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Catharsis
Message:
Did you read the thing about Amaroo where there was no assigned seating and the 'New York and South American' premies pushed in front? People must have been freaking out!

Am dealing a lot with trying to understand my own anxiety right now - it's only when I look back at my time in the cult that I realize how high my anxiety level was ALL THE TIME back then. I didn't suffer the physical burn-out that you and others did, but I sure can understand it.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:07:56 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Anxiety
Message:
I know what you mean. When I look back, I was experiencing a low-level of anxiety ALL THE TIME. No wonder I needed to spend so much time under a blanket trying to focus on my breath. I think that what happened to me was that it somatized into my body more than into my mind. I wish I had gone to a really mature therapist back when I first got sick, who could have noticed that I was under this intense, debilitating pressure to move in the ashram when I was happily married, and to somehow appease the abusive insults of MJ that I wasn't devoted enough if I didn't do this. I tried to appease him by overdoing it when I was clearly ill. I remember dragging myself to DECA to do a few hours of filing, when I was too dizzy almost to stand up. And the fumes at DECA made things worse. And he would come by and not look at us.

Although it feels a bit victimy to write like this, I am trying to find in myself the real feeling tone of how I set off on this course that led to being ill for 20 years. I feel that I am getting more and more validation, and that at a certain critical point, this validation will kind of release some of the imprinting for me. I've done everything else humanly possible, both in the health field and the clearing of beliefs field and all the other dimensions of healing work I do. But I think a big key lies in the insane level of crazy-making stress I was under, but didn't know or have acknowledged that I was under, so I just blamed myself for being crazy. My buddy quoted above describes that so well, and I think it is very helpful to me. It's like, when you really get that you were abused and that it wasn't okay, you can let go of feeling that there is something wrong with you and then you have the choice to redirect a lot of energy. There's also the choice to keep recycling the resentment, which I'm not choosing.

Yes, I was anxious to the point of doing behaviors that ruined my health.

love Katie

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:52:53 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Feeling tone . . . a very interesting term.
Message:
Years ago I read a book called 'The Nature of Personal Reality' by Jane Roberts ('channeling' Seth), that was very helpful in putting my life back together while questioning my cult involvement. The concept/experience of 'feeling tone' was key.

Do you know about that book, or is the feeling tone idea a common term in psychology?

Anyway, the book wasn't as woo-woo as you might think. Very clear, technical even, and a Godsend at the time.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:27:21 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Feeling tone . . . a very interesting term.
Message:
Boy, I'm with you... do I ever know that book! Been into all that stuff since I left the cult, but rarely talk about it here. I teach seminars about feeling tone.

Recently I've been through another turn in my path where I have realized that the 'feeling tone' or 'vibrational resonance' that I am emitting can be consciously influenced (for the better) to a much greater extent than I ever realized. It's much more powerful than positive thinking and seems to me to be the key to changing my health.

The ex-instructor I quoted is into this kinda stuff too.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 21:25:41 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Feeling tone . . . a very helpful realization
Message:
How nice to speak with someone who's familiar with that material. Jane Roberts' many books have helped some other ex's I know to become ex's. Such inspiring common sense! No fantasy or mythological rigmarole! Refreshing practical wisdom. I sort of came to consider Seth as a friend, like I look forward to meeting him somehow, somewhere. (now, maybe that is going a little far, but that's how I felt/feel!)

Thank God the publishers finally changed that awful cover from the earlier editions. Do you remember that horrible purple radiating spiral with a most unflattering b/w photo of Jane looking up out of the center, like a witch. You really can not judge a book by its cover.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 00:32:21 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: darlingwave@aol.com
To: Carl
Subject: Feeling tone . . . a very helpful realization
Message:
Yes, that was an awful cover.

I have had a lot of experience in the realm of channeling and spirit guides and all that, but prefer to talk about it offline, or off this forum (we talk about all that kind of stuff on the RE forum). My e-mail is above.

love Katie

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 12:31:14 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Feeling tone . . . a Southern black expression
Message:
Oliver Sachs, the noted English-born neurologist, discusses feeling tone in his extraordinary essay The President's Speech. That essay is about aphasia (the partial or total loss of the ability to ... comprehend spoken or written language... ) a dreadfully disabling condition. People who suffer from aphasia may develop a praeternatural sensitivity to feeling-tone as a sort of compensation for the inability to understand speech.

As Sachs says ...
This too becomes clear - often in the most striking, or comic, or dramatic way - to all those who work or live closely with aphasiacs: their families or friends or nurses or doctors. At first, perhaps, we see nothing much the matter; and then we see that there has been a great change, almost an inversion, in their understanding of speech. Something has gone, has been devastated, it is true - but something has come, in its stead, has been immensely enhanced, so that - at least with emotionally-laden utterance - the meaning may be fully grasped even when every word is missed. This, in our species Homo loquens, seems almost an inversion of the usual order of things: an inversion, and perhaps a reversion too, to something more primitive and elemental. And this perhaps is why Hughlings Jackson compared aphasiacs to dogs (a comparison that might outrage both!) though when he did this he was chiefly thinking of their linguistic incompetences, rather than their remarkable, and almost infallible, sensitivity to 'tone' and feeling. Henry Head, more sensitive in this regard, speaks of 'feeling-tone' in his ( 1926) treatise on aphasia, and stresses how it is preserved, and often enhanced, in aphasiacs (see footnote).

The footnote reads ...
'Feeling-tone' is a favorite term of Head's, which he uses in regard not only to aphasia but to the affective quality of sensation, as it may be altered by thalmic or peripheral disorders. Our impression, indeed, is that Head is continually
half-unconsciously drawn towards the exploration of 'feeling-tone' - towards, so to speak, a neurology of feeling-tone, in contrast or complementarity to a classical neurology of proposition and process. It is, incidentally, a common term in USA, at least among blacks in the South: a common, earthy and indispensable term. 'You see, there's such a thing as a feeling tone ...And if you don't have this, baby, you've had it' (cited by Studs Terkel as epigraph to his 1967 oral history Division Street: America).

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:16:13 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Anxiety and being the victim
Message:
Hi Katie -
I don't think it's 'victimy' to write like you did - we CHOSE to do that stuff, and I think part of the reason we chose to do it is because it felt comfortable to us on a certain level (extension of our childhoods, or whatever!)

I wrote a post to Sandy below about releasing anger from the heart. I hesitate to call it 'righteous' anger because of all the negative connotations, but that's what it feels like. I don't think anger is the same as resentment, or at least not REAL anger. And I think suppressing that is a lot of what made us sick, physically or mentally. I also think there is a lot of deep fear behind the anxiety - but I find that far harder to deal with than anger (because it's scary as shit!).

I'm thinking about this stuff a lot - in process, as you might say.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:05:28 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Anxiety and being the victim
Message:
This should probably go as a separate thread but I will post here because it is apropos to your discussion. I suffered from a 'double bind' for 15 years. While my intuition and intelligence told me I had everything to be angry with m about, and felt that he had betrayed my trust and wronged me with his advice vis-a-vis the ashram and consequently about relationships, having children, family, friends, career, etc., I couldn't bring myself to denounce and renounce him because I was too deeply programmed and did not have the information available on this site. These days I think he steers clear from advising people how to live their lives and focusses more on devotion to himself as master and the inner experience.

Back then, on the one hand I knew I simply had to get on with my life and accept that circumstances had changed, and on the other, a very fundamental feeling of being betrayed: used up and spit out. I would think like: 'this is just my concept of the loving master being challenged' or 'it's all inside so don't bother my little head about it' This kind of thing. I continued to go to see him and suspended (or repressed)judgement.

I now realize that what I was doing is called rationalizing. How could the one responsible for showing me this gift be 'bad'? I have always derived benefit from practicing the techniques (and continue to do so). The more I read other's personal interactions with m the stronger I feel. Since posting here I feel more empowered, in control, responsible - truly a therapeutic exercise - but would love to hear more from any lurking ex-initators or ex-PAMs. Thanks to the ex-initiator who allowed his letters to be posted here.
Gary

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:31:56 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Anxiety and being the victim
Message:
Yes, it's a delicate edge, between anger from the heart, as you brilliantly call it, and resentment.

When I first left the cult, anger was my greatest discovery. What a jewel! I did lots of breathwork and found that I could feel it deeply AND transmute it into energy and power that helped propel me forward on my own path. I know you have done similar processes.

The anxiety is more of a revelation to me. I think it was a subtle energy hidden behind a gross energy, like a bass singer behind an orchestra, or my husband Jitendra with his soft very deep voice trying to be heard in a crowd. Not that I want to equate him with anxiety!

All love and power to you as you process. Don't turn into cheese ;––) Remember to watch Whose Line Is It Anyway on Thursday ABC at 8pm. That will keep you cheery as you go through...

love Katie Darling

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:14:55 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: M down on psychology - what about Marolyn/Valerio?
Message:
If he's so down on psychology, I wonder what he thinks about Marolyn's having gotten a degree in it from the nearby Pepperdine University? And what about his trusted honcho Valerio who supposedly has a PhD in it from the same Univ.? What does he say to them? Does he bully them with abusive comments and try to discount their interest in it?

God, what a creep. The scenario of him being waited on hand and foot by legions of adoring nymphs (whom he no doubt sleeps with when he feels like it), cigarette and cognac in hand, is indeed nauseating. And all the while fostering the total illusion and charade that he's somehow divine and we should give him our love and respect and lives and money. He is one sick puppy (in this psychology student's estimation) and should be put out of business ASAP -- power to all you potential lawsuiters!

Thanks for sharing this, Disculta.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:58:28 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:
Scary indeed, do you know what year this took place ???
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 16:14:20 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Former instructor describes nauseating experiences
Message:
I think he left in the late eighties, but he will tell all soon enough.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:21:37 (GMT)
From: thethinker
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: knowlede is free. So why does it cost so much?
Message:
I was looking for other meditation techniques on the web, and saw a course costing Ł80 which had plenty of follow-ups and seemed to be organised really well. It occurred to me that it would have been much cheaper to pay for a proper course and have some support while you were learning, rather than get knowledge for 'free' (after attending 6 months of video programmes and travelling to wherever the great miragey was doing the next sessions) and then be expected to 'show your gratitude' for the rest of your life. Not so 'free' really, is it?
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:48:43 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: thethinker
Subject: my take?...because it's good business for m
Message:
You could look at it like this:

I could sell you a car for $1000.
That's it, it's yours for life. A straight deal.

Or I could give it to you for free and guilt trip you into paying me $50/month for the rest of your life.
Plus, get goodies from you once or twice a year for special occasions.
Sure, I'm not guaranteed you'd make the payments, but the odds are pretty good that the numbers would make it work.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:07:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: because it's good business
Message:
Especially if you then tell the person to whom you sold the car that it would break down if you failed to ''keep in touch/send payments'' and that you would turn into a heap of rotting vegetables if you did not drive it 24 hours a day.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:11:38 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: because it's good business - exactly right!
Message:
That's it, of course, business and ongoing devotion/money - he needs us alot more than we need him, in reality. N'est-ce pas?
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:43:46 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: thethinker
Subject: Knowledge not only NOT free but taught wrongly too
Message:
Yes, there are much better meditation teachers available. But then Rawat does not teach ''meditation.'' He teaches enslavement to a master.

He shows the techniques backwards and offers no help in the practicalities of yoga and then wonders why 90% of the people he has ''given Knowledge'' to walk away without getting anything out of it and the other ten percent go nuts.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:40:08 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: thethinker
Subject: Good point, thinker
Message:
I agree with your observation, but I think most of the people here can't relate to what you're saying because they come from a period much earlier than that when receiving K was so much easier. Back in the early seventies, you really didn't have to go to more than 1 or 2 satsang before you were given Knowledge.
Today, of course, you have to bend over backwards before it's revealed to you.

6 months is a long time to hear about something before you find out what it really is. By that time, you've become so indoctrinated into believing this Knowledge is everything you could hope for, yet you're instructed not to expect anything, that when you finally receive it, you don't know what to make of it.

So, if you experience less than what you hoped for (which I think is the case for most, if not ALL people), you still stick with it because Maharaji has you convinced that it's really this beautiful, precious diamond, and if you can't see that, that's your problem, not his. Fuck him, is what I say.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 20:55:25 (GMT)
From: free of divinity Cult Bob
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Good point, thinker
Message:
Holy cow, I just came from a hatha yoga class and the instructor revealed two of 'M's KNOWLEDGE' techniques,#3 and #4 ,which in the early 70's were called holy name or the word and nectar.It was a spontaneous 50% Knowledge review ,live, without the boring video version purveyed by a probably bored maharaji adnauseum these days.I think it's safe to say that the intro. programs at the local video hall are mainly attended by premies who striving for an experience in participation { used to be called service} and not by sincere seekers of the truth willing to wait six months to receive knowledge.In conclusion, I believe M. deserves no credit for anyone having a positive experience in meditation. It is an individuals intention,focus, sincerity, and humility which propel them on their path of learning and discovery. I'm enjoying life and all it's possibilities ,free of the cult of divinity a.k.a. Maharaji's world. Ciao for now.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:02:13 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: free of divinity Cult Bob
Subject: Good point, Bob
Message:
You said: ''M. deserves no credit for anyone having a positive experience in meditation. It is an individuals intention,focus, sincerity, and humility which propel them on their path of learning and discovery.''

That's it in a nutshell. It also does not matter what rechniques one uses or even if one uses techniques. It's all in the ''intention, focus, sincerity.''

I prefer getting high with a little help from my friends than Rev Moon Beam.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 03:39:34 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Interesting point, Pat
Message:
It also does not matter what rechniques one uses or even if one uses techniques. It's all in the ''intention, focus, sincerity.''

I never practiced any rechniques (Japanese techniques, perhaps?), but I was struck by your idea that it doesn't matter what you do so much as how much of yourself you put into it, and THAT I suppose is going to depend on how much you dig it.

For me, meditation has never been just a fun thing to do that I applied myself to in that vein. I've always approached it as my sacred duty for fulfilling the purpose of my life, at least with Knowledge.

Recently I read a book called The Wooden Bowl (which I think you'd dig btw, Pat) written by a zen practitioner who suggests that you approach meditation as a hobby. I think he's got the right idea, but I think I'll pass. I'm able to put much more of myself into a game of High Heat Baseball on my Sony Playstation, so I guess that's probably where I belong instead of trying to 'realize God' with meditation.

However, if it should ever just become a fun thing to do, something done for the simple enjoyment of it, perhaps I'll get back into it someday. But as it stands now, I don't really forsee that happenning. Too much gugu baggage.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:10:16 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: It was fun for me before I met the urug
Message:
I did the techs as part of hatha yoga. The purpose of the breathing thingy was to slow down and smell the roses and relax and not let tensions build up in the mind and body. To me it is both a hobby and a health regimen.

The primitive religious Hindu bullshit nearly killed it for me for a few years. I did it out of fear for the first few years and then, when I got away from premiedom and did it on my own all the fun came back.

My mom always used to mediate in the kitchen in the morning before the family woke up. She would drink three cups of tea and smoke a ciggy and feel rejuvenated and ready to face us. It was her sacred meditation time and she always had a lot of energy to give afterwards.

How the hell can anyone be dogmatic and religious about feeling nice and enjoying life? Well, I guess if it makes money to scare the bejesus out of folks with primitive superstitions and the fear of god you can probably make a buck or two allaying their fears. But first you have to induce the fears like the guru did - break into a thousand pieces, rotting vegetables etc.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:26:07 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: thethinker
Subject: Sorry, knowledge. nt.
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:08:28 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: come on, let's do something constructive...
Message:
I have been listening to the discussions here for about a week now, and it seems that it's time for those who have been hurt to stand up and be counted. Part of the recovery process from betrayal and abuse is to be angry at what happened and tell it to the world - you can't just bury it and try and carry on with your life. It will always be there disrupting your thoughts and causing problems. I haven't lost so much cos I couldn't bear to give up my music, art, family etc (though I did put them below M in my life and not see that much of them for 27 years! I only appreciated them when I was in hospital last year.) I expect there's more to come out about that for me, but it's the people who ended up penniless that I really feel for, plus those who suffered sexual abuse from Jagdeo and thought that M would help them - this is serious stuff! Just calling him names and agreeing amongst ourselves that he's 'a crock of sh**e' isn't enough. He's having 'Introducing the Possibility of Knowledge ' trainings now - there's one at the Old Theatre, the Old Building, London School of Economics, Houghton Street WC2 this Sunday 27th May, starting at 3 pm. (In case anyone's interested in finding out what's being said to 'pwk and committed aspirants'). The video shown will be M speaking at the Knowledge Introduction Training at Atlanta 2000. I've heard these mentioned but never felt the call to go to one - until now. I'll report back here.

I think perhaps I'll leave a letter to be opened in the case of my untimely death or disability following an 'accident', about my intentions to investigate and with this site address - you never know. After what happened to the 'pie' man...(I have been watching rather alot of Perry Mason recently).

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 14:45:28 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Don't be afraid!
Message:
When I left more than a year a go I would remeber taht a mahatma hit a person who threw a pie on maharaji's face with a hammer and I would get scared. If they have done nothing to me,Jm or others that posted their private stuff nothing will happen to you either. Fear is good because it can send responses for us to protect ourselves, but these people, premies? They are as passive and confused as him and besides, deep inside premies know what the truth is. I think is a good idea. Just don't talk to them if you want to spy. Act like them I guess is the best advice I can give you, not taht you asked, but my 'maternal' complex made me say it. hahahahaha....shhhh Get stron yourself first and then you can approach your friends, the ones still trapped in the cult.

This is America and we have rights, one, to express yourself and be you own person. Screw the lie. I can wait to read, so I can laugh a little more of the magic worl of K. Yuck!

Stick around. This forum works well to clarify the sick part of the mind maharaji created, manipulating us in many ways to think in certain way.

i wish you the best, from my heart.

Love to you, brother/sister of the universe! Peace and freedom.

SB

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:20:41 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Hey, I could do with another mother figure!
Message:
Hi SB, thanks for your concern - I'm in UK and we don't have a constitution over here, but I guess the law and society are pretty much against leaders and followers of cults - so I've finally made it to the other side of the social status quo! It's just middle age actually, the rebel spirit's not so strong... I shall be infiltrating meetings over here and reporting the current party line. I posted another reply to you on another thread - nice to talk to you!

May the force be with you...

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 04:14:30 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: May the force be with you...
Message:
It's and is soooooooo much better now. I feel like I have wings.

Do what you can you n=know it will be welcome! We die to hear about chacharachi and Co! we are writting history. hehehehehe

Is the force with you?I hope so, because love is real. Mine to you!

SB (I read and answer yours. Is late here and I must go to bed; see u later) Enjoy.

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Date: Thurs, May 24, 2001 at 15:28:43 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Force is pretty strong at the moment!
Message:
Hi SB, this is my second post to you today - I feel like we're friends already! Yes, like you I feel alot of energy that's been holding all this realisation of something-not -right being released - and it feels gooood! So nice to be responsible for my own life, and experience - don't have to believe it's better somewhere else (i.e. with M) because it's quite obviously pretty horrible around his physical form. I remember premies telling me it was 'intense' round him and you have to be strong - that translates as 'he's an insecure control-freak and loves bullying people', of course, but I suppose you try not to judge him like you would anyone else cos you think he's the Lord. Crazy! When you've invested alot of time and energy into something or someone, it's always really hard to admit it isn't working and walk away from it all. Difficult to let go. We have to listen to our own inner voice and only do what feels comfortable to us, never mind what all the people around are doing, but that's easier said than done, of course. Now hopefully I've learned that lesson...! Tchau, catch you later.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 12:11:19 (GMT)
From: General Mayhem
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: come on, let's do something constructive...
Message:
Let's see, that's

He's having 'Introducing the Possibility of Knowledge ' trainings now - there's one at the Old Theatre, the Old Building, London School of Economics, Houghton Street WC2 this Sunday 27th May, starting at 3 pm.

Keep us informed about where the venues are going to be. We'll do the rest.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:33:57 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: General Mayhem
Subject: come on, let's do something constructive...
Message:
Glad to be of service, General. I take it you'll be co-ordinating some manoeuvres, diversionary tactics etc so I'll look out for you...hey, this could be fun, just like the old days out with the jumbling van...
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 13:16:12 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: General Mayhem
Subject: Why so many preparatory steps to Enjoy Life?
Message:
Pretty soon it'll be:

'First Introduction to the Preparation for the Initial Discussion of the Possibility of Potentially Attending the Second Introduction to the Preparation for the Remote Chance of Enjoying The Life You Already Possess.'

Fee: Only 51% of your lifetime wages or other wealth.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 23:35:17 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Why so many preparatory steps to Enjoy Life?
Message:
Hey Carl. That's very funny! Yes, it's all got a bit complicated really - and as boring as any other business striving to postition themselves in the market-place of self-improvement...or something. Since it's not about god or having an out-of-this-world experience, salvation or meditation, and EV is not being lead by M - what exactly IS it all about now? Hmmm. And why are all the programmes over-booked? Last few I was at all had empty seats - maybe every-one's heard this may be their last chance to see M in all his glory before the court-cases come rolling in and he has to retire. We can only hope...I've decided to get some stickers printed with things like 'If Knowledge is free, why does it cost so much? or 'Maharaji already has several mansions, a yacht and a plane - don't give him your money!' Then I'm going to put them up on the tube escalators in London.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 15:08:10 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: ROFL! thanks NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:39:01 (GMT)
From: thethinker
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: a support group for ex-premies recovering...
Message:
I just posted the idea for a support group, but it disappeared. I think we need something more solid if there is going to be any action taken. A support group could advertise itself, and its mere existence is a warning to anyone thinking of getting involved. Also it's not confrontational and would be a beacon of sanity for all those premies still involved. Anyone who's been around for a long time will find it easier to contemplate leaving if there is a life-raft already available. I see this as phase two of the process. What does anyone else think?
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 14:31:53 (GMT)
From: Moldy_Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: thethinker et al
Subject: To everyone on this thread - Email me
Message:
x
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:32:27 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Moldy_Warp
Subject: Support group
Message:
Dear thinker,

We've discussed the idea of support groups here before, but I think your idea that it is also a very good way of attracting people out of the cult and warning them to go into it is excellent.

Although there are all kinds of things that you can do in therapy that work well to accelerate the Maharajiectomy, a simple support group where everybody gets to say whatever they are feeling would be very powerful I think. There is also the suggestion from 12-step and other groups that there be no cross-sharing, in other words, if I share something, you don't come in and comment on it, but just share your own experience. With this simple basis, a lot of freedom could probably be attained for a lot of people.

Feeling supportive, love Disculta Darling

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 10:44:41 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Support group
Message:
Hi Disculta, I was feeling that it's necessary to have a real, flesh and blood contact with people in order for anything really concrete to be done. Expressing views on a forum is one thing, but you can still be removed and not get down to the nitty gritty of how you actually feel. If there was going to be anything legal done to redress the abuse, we would need to know we had real friends who would support us and make it impossible for EV to get heavy. If they thought there was going to be a law suit brought against M, who knows what they'd get up to? Intimidation and so on isn't unlikely, given that they all believe they're defending the Lord (or so I assume) and that justifies anything, of course, in the cause of Truth or something.

If there was a real organisation existing simply to offer emotional support and information to anyone wanting to recover or leave, that would be a step forward. Internet is still available to only some of the population, not everyone who's been hurt is on the net.

If I get more involved in this I'd like to know there are people around who I could phone and would look out for me!

Love and best wishes to all reading this.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:24:24 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who is Guru Maharaj ji? the 'authorized story'...
Message:
Who is Guru Maharaj ji?

The 'authentic authorized story':
'Why do more than six million people around the world claim he is the greatest incarnation of God that ever trod the face of this planet? Why do Christian priests claim that he has taught them the way to love? Why do Hindus refer to him as the Swan Avatar?'
-- DLM/EVI, Bantam Books, 1973

'God is the same, but now we look for Him to come in a new way, to give His Knowledge. Jesus gave this Knowledge, Krishna gave this Knowledge, but now we must look again for a new Master to show us the light. I have not come to establish a new religion or sect, but I have come to give you Knowledge...' -- miragey

...'they expect God Himself to come, they pray for it, they ask for it, they announce about it, but when He comes they fail to recognize Him. And not recognizing Him in His physical form, they cannot recognize him within themselves.' -- miragey

...'whenever he comes to the physical world, the Perfect Master has to tolerate many difficulties.' - miragey

'We have to find this Word by a teacher, a guide. A guide who is perfect, and who can teach this perfect Knowledge to us. A perfect guide can guide us. You need a burning lamp to light other lamps. So, in the same way you need an enlightened Perfect Master to make you enlightened and perfect also. IF THE MASTER HIMSELF IS NOT PERFECT, HOW CAN HE MAKE YOU PERFECT? YOU NEED A PERFECT Master.' -miragey

'when Satguru comes... He is perfect, He was perfect, and He will be perfect... A devotee is sitting in America, Guru is sitting in India, but both have a very powerful connection...So, remember. We have to find that God, that person who is perfect... So, remember: we are part of Him who has manifested Himself as a Guru and who has come into this earth, and now we have to be One with Him. We have to completely merge and make our souls one with Him because He is perfect, and once we merge with Him we will also be perfect.' - miragey [aka maharaji aka guru maharaj ji], 15 years old, 1973 Shri Hans Productions

Either these words were and are all true, or you-know-who was and is a lying sack of you-know-what. [You too, you spin doctors at EVI!] Yes, I have seen big piles from elephants, but never has lil' swami seen such huge stinky piles of deluded demonic invention/reinvention! We must exorcise these demons that have been possessing the spirits, minds and bodies of our beloved brothers and sisters!

Oy - Ol' swami is losing composure here and forgetting bliss. Ok, this carcass must be hungry for meal - time for channa marsala, rice and beans with naan bread now...

Peace and lentils to the exes, poor premies [aspirants, too], and their families,

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:29:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Guru is greater than God because he sells God
Message:
and makes a good living out of it too.

I'm glad you reposted this Swami Ji because it was kind of lost as a simple response in another thread.

Sounds like you're having fun and feeling strong.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:15:32 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sorry Pat, you don't get it.
Message:
Hi Pat,

I read a lovely long quote on this topic today.

I can only remember one bit, but I'll try and reproduce it here sometime. It was a great long thing explaining exactly why Guru is Greater than God.

Anyway, here's the starter.

Guru is greater than God because God gives you five senses but Guru takes you beyond them.

Another one was, Guru is greater than God because God gives you your family but Guru does better (I forgot the details of this bit.)

This is the kind of stuff Catweazle should have hit me with when we were having our exchange of koans down below.

There were quite a few other reasons, but I can't remember them right now.

How was your birthday party by the way Pat?

Take care

Anth, who is twice as great as half an Anth.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:26:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Sorry Anth, I should have said ''Guru is greater
Message:
than God because he pretends to show you God but really just shows you how boring snot tastes.''

My birthday was wonderful thank you. I am still glowing from my cyber party and I am just thrilled to have you back here to talk to and just wish that you could come to the cool grey city of love for the Baby Throwing festival.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:40:07 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I think the Captain still believes this
Message:
Hi Pat,

I'm having a renewed interest in this 'Guru is Greater than God' topic. The stuff I was reading today had this big list of reasons why Guru is Greater than God.

The guy who showed me the quotes believes them. I think there may be lots of premies who still believe this. In fact, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Captain believes it himself. (It was written by his father.)

I'd bet hard ex-soviet-bloc dollars that if asked about it in the right situation, he wouldn't deny it.

I'd love to come to the City of Lights, and who knows, may even be able to do it within the next year. We've got an invitation from a mad Mexican and his attorney to spend a few days there, which we intend to cash in as soon as we can scrape up the fare for our World Tour.

Adios Amigo

Anth, sleeper on floors and sofas.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:44:16 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I think the Captain still believes this - me too
Message:
Yep, I think he was brainwashed at too early of an age by his daddy.

Have you ever tried sleeping in a sling?

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:49:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Great minds work alike.
Message:
But being British, I refrained from mentioning- well I deleted it.

Anth, who only sways from side to side after a few pints OF BEER.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:59:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Great minds work alike - trying to design a
Message:
portable sling. Of course I don't really have one but wish I did. My house is 850 square feet beach cottage (that cost a quarter of a million - a garage in SF is a bit cheaper) filled to the rafters with three fat fags, five mad dogs and an insane cat.

No room for a sling. But the dining room table works fine. The only nice thing about a sling is that you don't have to sing, ''Put your legs on my shoulders; hold me in your arms...baby.''

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:56:14 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hey, lets do sushi sometime.
Message:
arf arf.

I'm about to disappear for a while again, so when I get back, let's do sushi...

(Around here that's tinned sardines.)

Anth, who feels like drinking cider and shouting at strangers in bus stations for a few days.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:01:59 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Such
Message:
Hi Such,

You don't mind if I call you Such, do ya?

Your post blew away some old cobwebs and more fully reminded me why I came to him in the first place. After reading your post, I went over to maharaji.org and looked for the FAQ's about if he ever said he was God, to which he denied. Funny, I could not find that FAQ. I was going to transpose it over here on this thread to make the contrast and contradiction of his message real simple, plain and clear, but I could not find it.

If he really wanted to keep a low profile and he really was the big G, it wasn't a very good idea to allow a premie to publish a book, call it the 'authorized version' and then deny what's in it now, and then blame (ex)premies who notice the contradiction as the cause of the problem, and make them feel like they are betraying God Himself and outting Him or something. Very tacky.

It is dripping like the dickens over here, in more ways than one. The drought is finally over out hre in the US northeast, after over 3 weeks of no rain it looks like we are getting a downpour that will last off and on for a week. And the down

The part of God called Sandy ~8>)

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:58:40 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Exactly,brother! That's why I dug up the quotes(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:30:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: They forgot to paint out Trotsky.
Message:
Yes Sandy,

These two posts need to be side by side.

It's been interesting talking to Catweazle. He seems to be in the same dilema as the cult, trying to deny an embarassing past, but still believing it at the same time.

They seem to be in a tailspin both ideaologically as well as financially.

It's astonishing they are so shoddy about denying what everybody knows and can see to be true. They also deny what most premies still believe. They are trying to rewrite history, like the Stalinists did, but they've forgotten to paint Trotsky out of all the pictures first.

It's a hoot to watch.

Anth the vodka and chips

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:02:16 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's Rum and Coke over here
Message:
Hi Anth,

I hardly ever drink, hardly ever keep it in the house, but my brother and a good friend both went to St. Croix recently and brought back Cruzan Banana Rum (which is yet unopened) and also a spiced rum which goes great in Pepsi. I am using alcohol as a sedative and contemplative agent at this point in the evening, as I gaze at this site and consider the last 23 years of my life, remembering not to be too hard on myself. He was good at what he did and I bought it. I compliment him on his ability to have gotten my attention for so long, and now I see it differently.

I don't want to tie myself to anyone now due to anger or resentment, just realize what's up and go do what gets me closer to God and to my fellow human beings and to myself.

Consider the bamboo finger trap cylinder that you get at fairs and places like that...the harder you pull, the more you are caught, and the looser you stay, the easier it is to wiggle out of the forces that bind you.

Sandy, yo-ho-ho and a bottle of rum and coke

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 01:53:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Yo ho ho and cheers, Sandy
Message:
I hope you remember to drink one glass of water per glass of rum so you don't shrivel up like an old prune.

I can feel - it you're starting to lighten up and have fun already. Bless you. I'm just puffing a doobie myself and having a nice bottle of wine.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:04:13 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You sound like an ex-rated ex-premie...
Message:
cheers and clarity to the earth and everyone on it.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:52:36 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I was always an ex-rated ex-premie...
Message:
The pot smoking hippie fag with ear rings in the days when only women wore ear rings. One of those embarassing gopis who cried in darshan and fainted from joy in arti. It was fun but it really is so cold and unloving and institutionalized and zombified nowadays. And finding out that he is such a cowardly, silly hypocrite put an end to it for me.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 05:42:34 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC and Sandy
Subject: Like, don't bogart that joint, my friends... (ot
Message:
doobie doobie do, and yo ho ho and a bottle of rum!

It's about 100F here. I have digressed - and am drinking a frosty, robust Dunkel Bock. None of that Busch Budweiser dishwater for me!

Peace and lentils,

da x-rated lil' swami

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:09:46 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Such
Subject: Found it...copied from below...belongs here
Message:
Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 15:21:44
From: janet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: FAQ's-now he's blaming US for believing him!
Message:

in my email today, i got a reissue of some earlier EV newsletter from amaroo and i opened it. saw a link in the margin i hadnt seen before so i went there. and there I saw
another link at the bottom of the page to a press kit page. so i went there.
and there in clear reaction to our work here, were these responses, new ones, more
pointed, to the FAQ's our postings stir up.
now he isn't blaming the indian mahatmas anymore. Now he's blaming us directly, for
listening and taking him at his own word:

and I quote:
'Maharaji never at any time claimed to be God. As an Indian national, when Maharaji
first started teaching in the west when he was 13 years old, he used many examples
from eastern traditions which demonstrated that a student seeking fulfillment could do so
by choosing to follow the teachings of a guru or master. As he matured he realized that
western traditions put a very different emphasis on the idea of guru and wrongly
attributed messianic labels in this process. He changed his language to use the term
master only and gradually removed all Indian associations from his teaching, as this is not
a path just for Indians but is something that is available for anyone regardless of color,
religion or race. It is acknowledged that many people at the time were already looking
for a messianic type figure. That Maharaji was not such a figure disappointed some
people.
He recollects: 'I remember coming to the West and talking to people. Some had the idea
that once you attained this 'high' state of being, you would become super-human. You
would be in a perpetual state of peace with no confusion in your life, ever. Even at my
very young age, I understood that this was not the way it was supposed to be.'
'Knowledge is about having a passion for life, falling in love with life. It is about making a
continuous effort to learn and grow. It is not meant to take you away from all the
experiences of living, it is about accepting and enjoying what it really means to be alive.
It's true that I can help people feel something that is beautiful, something that exists
inside them. I consider it a gift. But, to become above it all - I have never pursued that,
nor do I want to. This is one of those bizarre things. When people saw me at that time,
they really didn't understand what it was all about.'

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

What a pisser.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 18:25:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Guru Maharaji, from u I was born and to u now I go
Message:
I posted this to you at the end of the thread that you started but it is just about to be sucked out of the drain into inactive. So I'll say it here.

Rev Rawat said in Portland in March, if you don't have that affection for him then you will not see him as the Master.
It took a long time for my affection for him to dry up and I still have little pangs of fondness for him which is fine. I don't want to hate anyone.

But not to have his master's leash around my neck is a great feeling. Everyday I wake up feeling freer and happier and I wish that for you too.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 21:37:08 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: PatC and everyone
Subject: Tell the guru we're surfin',now the game is on you
Message:
r.e. m:like I gave U my fart,4 in U it will mellow
miragey ex-Lard my life is my play... haha

Yeah, I'm feeling strong, whole, great!!!

Sometimes I do feel a lil' sad or even depressed about some of the aspects of the long tough trip I've been through [and the lingering estranged son thing], and the many opportunities I sacrificed or rejected -- for the sake of what I thought was truth, but which in reality was my own seedling contaminated by a boll weevil. Had to use some pesticide to rid my cave of lil' intruders; had to do the same thing with the sikh bhakti juju.

Cave is clean again. Now, to make the most of the time we have left in our lives - to continue to grow and fulfill our dreams, without the haze of some mirages blurring our vision - and recognizing that each shining person has a uniqueness, and that if there be a God at all [or whatever], then We are ALL Daughters and Sons of that Energy, that power of love.

I sense miragey is mixed up -- he doesn't know if he's coming or going now - guru or an ex-premie, too!! hohoho But methinks he definitely wants to hold onto that addictive mega-maya lifestyle that has consumed him and his clan.

Yo, Prem pal, forget the mala, Krishna crown, that insipid and contrived 'dance with me', and the toe-jam football -- just come clean - and Do the Krishnamurti!

Surfin' Krishnamurti:

'Everybody sailed an ocean across the blissful way,
And they groveled to a guru in Californ-i-ay,
Wearing their buttons, and medallions too,
Tell the guru we're surfing, now the game is on you.

Eastside Westside, eastside westside,
Eastside Westside, eastside westside,

Yes, we sailed an ocean and we found our way,
Stood on our 2 feet and we yelled 'hooray',
Chuckin' those videos, and the pictures too,
Yeah, tell the guru we went surfin', now the game is on you!

Everybody's doing it - the Krishnamurti,
Do the Krishnamurti, do the Krishnamurti,
c'mon now: Do the Krishnamurti, do the Krishnamurti!'

Yo bro, I think the whole bhakti juju org trip is like major wipin' out, dude. Gnarly! Surf's Up... In my Room... Catch a Wave and you're sittin' on top of the world...

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 22:34:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: We need one more darshan line for ex-premies
Message:
So that we can say it to his face: ''You're a shit, Balyouguesswhat!''

It would be very healing.

One day you and I will take our sons fishing, Swami Ji, and love them before we die.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 06:15:14 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: or maybe hunting ze wily bull tofu w/ all the kids
Message:
Pat,

I'm an incorrigible sanctified holy-roller vegetarian. But taking the lads out on a boat with some good chow and bevs on a beautiful sunny day sounds good to me. Sailing takes me away...

Personally, I think former longtime premies everywhere should take their kids out and talk to them about the m. stuff, how we were affected, ask how it affected them, tell 'em we tried to do what we thought was right, and now we just want 'em to know how much we love them - and would like to get to know them better again, too - in a new and better way.

Waxing on our keyboards now, 'stead of bhakti juju
Tell the guru we went surfin', now his game is all through...

Peace and lentils banana bro boaty,

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 08:16:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Ever since I dumped the urug I've been wanting to
Message:
write a long explanatory letter to my son but I keep putting it off thinking it will be better face to face. It can be a bit pompous and boring in a letter. I was reconciled with my dad whom I hated for many years just before he kicked the bucket and it was perfect - even right down to the amount of time I had with him as my pal.
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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 19:18:10 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I wrote the long letter but never sent it (ot
Message:
Pat,

I just emailed you. This very personal and saddening subject is better discussed between us privately, I think.

Perhaps writing the letters in the next couple of weeks, then putting them aside for a few days and reviewing them carefully before sending them to our sons - would be a good idea.

At least, then, we can get a load off our minds - and know that we've shown our kids that we're sincerely trying - if they even still care. [Part of them does care and is confused, or they wouldn't be so bitter and withdrawn.]

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 20:25:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: I'll email you later. Must go to work NT (ot
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 23:01:41 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: all English ex-ashram premies should sue ...
Message:
If there is a sympathetic lawyer reading this - it's only right that M should compensate those premies who gave him everything and got thrown out with nothing. I only gave Divine Sales my favourite LPs, and that felt so bad I realised the ashram life wasn't fo me. But I think a lawsuit would be very therapeutic and of course generate lots of publicity. There must be a way of doing it, now that so many people are connected through this site. Is there an Ellen Brockowitz-type person out there? Assistant at a law firm or something, it would be an interesting legal case in England - I've seen the post re' lawsuit in America.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:21:33 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Yes Jani,
Message:
I gave the best years of my life, our house, my harmonium, my books, albumn collection, sex life, collection of psychedelic posters, and 3,467 religious statues.

From what I remember, years ago, a premie donated a large sum of money to Unity School UK. After the school closed, she asked for the money back, and with the help of a lawyer, eventually got it. Her name was Dearden and she lived in Hampshire.

If indeed there is a legal case to get our worldly goods back, I'd definitely be interested in staking a claim.

Anth, bitter twisted bent and clutching at straws, 'Where's the cider and the rusty syringe?'

The more I think about it, the better it seems. Because, after all Jani, it's not about money is it? It's about the experience.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 13:37:50 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Statute of limitations..?
Message:
Isn't there some kind of law about the passing of time (20 years?) making it too late to do anything about long-ago crimes? - apart from serious criminal offenses...

Must be getting on two decades since the ashrams closed, so you might have to move quickly if it ain't already too late.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 18:02:09 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: never too late.
Message:
there are special circumstances, always. I checked. I'm getting stronger Nigel. I'm going for it. he deserves to be stopped, the abusive illusive never grow up without a conscience bastard.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 14:07:23 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That's only in America Nigel.
Message:
...and anyway, I'm still living the ashram lifestyle.

Anth the almost God realised, any minute now, here it comes.....POP.

'Dear Premies,

more and more each day I really feel that it's like you know, really really you know, it's like you can't really describe it.

Amen'

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 13:41:19 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Check yer mail box OT ntx
Message:
x
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:19:29 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yes Jani,
Message:
Hi Anth, it's not about money, of course not. But since we were all so mislead to think M was the Lord and would take care of us if we surrendered to him, and it's now clear that we completely misunderstood 'how it all works' it's only right that as a gesture of goodwill, to prove it isn't/wasn't the money, he should give back what was given on the understanding that He would release us from the bondage of Karma etc etc. No-one gives their house, LP collection, treasured musical instruments etc to a teacher of meditation. Apparently M is doing very well and is independent now from 'investments' so it shouldn't be any problem for him. After all, ashram premies were 'married' to M and he divorced them - they didn't want to leave. Therefore there has to be a settlement. Just like in a marriage, when one partner calls it a day, the other is angry, hurt and the only thing they can do to express that is to haggle over the wedding presents and have their pain acknowleged officially. That's what hasn't happened here, and why so many premies are so bitter - I spent 27 years believing M was someone he's not, and I'm disappointed. But I don't have that hurt, because I didn't give so much - he hasn't betrayed me to the same extent. I think it would be very good for everyone who is still hurt to get together and at least get a little light thrown onto this in public. Knowing that it's pissing M off and warning others about getting involved would be and added bonus. It just needs someone with a grasp of the law to be interested. There are no win- no fee deals these days. Putting all the energy into something positive would be great too, wouldn't it?

Hope you are both well and enjoying the sunshine!

Have you read the current EV FAQ answers - all of them are total lies and rubbish. They mustn't get away with it.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 10:34:30 (GMT)
From: thethinker
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Yes, and what about a support group?
Message:
Seems we need something a bit more concrete now, if any action is going to be taken. We're up against an organisation and need an organisaion to give the support. Like AA of something. Somewhere just for those trying to recover from being a premie, specifically to offer emotional and hopefully practical help. This web-site is great to start, but it is public and EV can keep tabs on us. We need something more now, I feel. The fact that a group existed would be further nails in the coffin of miragey's faltering career. It would create a real question in people's minds about the whole thing. Any publicity is good publicity. And if it's not actually anti-miragey, but just offering help to those who have been hurt, it wouldn't tend to antagonise those premies still in - and they'd have more of a chance of getting out. IMO.
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 21:52:28 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji, the plane, and EV
Message:
The EV FAQ includes the following:-

He does not own the private plane which he usually pilots himself to the many remote destinations to which he travels worldwide. This is leased from a private company and Maharaji does not charge a fee for piloting the plane. Because he is asked to speak at so many engagements worldwide, it would be impossible to schedule his itinerary in a timely or cost efficient manner on scheduled airlines.

He does not charge a fee for piloting a plane that is carrying him, at no cost, to EV's speaking engagements. It's nice for the private company to trust this person, who has no connection with the private company, or Elan Vital (presumably the client for the private company), to pilot this multi-million plane.

What a bizare relationship exists between these unrelated entities.

John.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 15:27:11 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: How doggone nice of him
Message:
JHB,

I didn't charge for my services when I went and listened to him either. After all, we were providing a service too. Without an audience, who needed him to get up and speak? I took time out of my busy schedule without pay, even paid my own way to get to the venues in many cases, room and board, or other premies helped out, so that he could do his thing to a room full of people and not an empty space. I think there is room for some royalty or commission for that, don't you? Or at least some good tips from his financial advisors who could have helped make evrey premie financially stable and eliminate poverty in premieland. On earth as is it in heaven, in every premies' home as it is in his home, no lack. But nooooo, it's GOOD to be poor, less distractions from him. Right.

Sandy

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:09:10 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Anger from the heart
Message:
Hi Sandy -
I'm not sure if this is the right place to put this post, but I do sense some deep anger in your recent posts and I applaud it.

I have found that expressing long-repressed deep anger can be a liberating and almost spiritual experience (or maybe it is a spiritual experience, who knows?). I don't blame M for teaching me to repress my anger - that started a long time before I even heard of him. But expressions of real, appropriately directed, anger were not welcome in M's world, in my experience.

I have also found (and maybe you have too) that it's easier for me to express anger at people and situations that I'm not deeply involved with. For example (and Jim may get irritated with me for saying this), I get pissed at Jim Heller a lot and so do some other people on here. But I don't really have any deep and lasting beef with Jim (I don't even know him), so expressing my anger towards him tends to be ultimately unsatisfying. He just tends to be an easy target.

Anyway, if you are deeply angry (and I do sense that you are, although I may be projecting), go for it. It's not always pretty, but I don't think it's 'unspiritual' AT ALL - I think it's healing when expressed appropriately.

Love from Katie, who is trying to take her own advice right now! I'm dealing with this stuff too.

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Date: Wed, May 23, 2001 at 02:01:21 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Righteous Anger has its place
Message:
Hi Katie,

The only recorded time Jesus got really pissed off was when He entered the outer court of the temple where the moneychangers hung out, who were in collusion with the local priesthood. And here is how it would go: some shepherd would save up for a dove or a bull or some sacrificial animal to atone for the sins of his family and bring on his pilgrimage to jerusalem what he thought was enough to pay for such an animal. Then he would trek to Jerusalem where the Temple was and take his coinage first to the moneychangers to get the coin of the realm of Jerusalem so he could buy his animal sacrifice to complete his pilgrimage. The omneychangers would inevitably tell the pilgrim that his money was not worth what it was back in his home town, and would trade him his money at a loss to him, maing him go into servitude until he could get enough to buy the animal and sacrifice and go back home. He could not e-mail his family or call them, he just had to hang out and be essentially a slave to someone until he saved enough to buy his sacrifice and go home. This is what pissed off Jesus so bad that He grabbed a cat of nine tails or something like it and ran them all out of the Temple.

When I heard about EV skimming premies to check them out of hotels automatically and charge them and additional $20.00 without telling them, it reminded me of that.

Love to you my sister Katie,

Sandy

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 01:44:15 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: like, totally cosmic coincidences, John! lila?...
Message:
Could you imagine him charging a fee to pilot the 40,000,000 dollar luxury jet plane that premies paid for that EVI does not even own but is owned by a separate corporation Seva [not named to the donors] which leases the plane back to EVI and which allows someone apparently not legally tied to the Seva corporation or to EVI in any way to not only fly the plane but to use it exclusively!!!!!

Wow - What a tangled web they weave when first they start to deceive!

Oops - steam from stove means rice and beans are ready! time to go...

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 02:59:02 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: John and such
Subject: Pilot Fees
Message:
Well, we are supposed to be taking EV's word on this, remember, just like all the other revisionist rubbish. And if he isn't charging pilot fees to fly the plane his audience paid for to speak at his own programs, don't think the thought hasn't crossed his mind . . . and he is surely charging EV a speaker's fee - probably in the $250,000 realm, in addition to 'donations', gate receipts, merchandising (video, CD, tape, other divine tchotchkes) percentage of food & drink concessions, travel & accomodation surcharges, satellite feeds, etc., etc., - good work, if you can get it, whatever you want to call yourself.
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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 09:27:16 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Pilot Fees
Message:
You notice EV always word their announcements about programmes very carefully? 'M has accepted invitations to speak at...'

So it's EV which invites him, not his idea at all. They're very crafty at hiding M's part in 'leading' - according to the FAQ he isn't EV's leader at all. Could have fooled me - everything they do is to try and please him, after all.

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:14:09 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Maharaji, the plane, and EV
Message:
I've just sent an email to EV querying this Not God assertion. Do you have it on tape, by any chance? I've just thrown all of my old tapes away - wish I'd kept them now!
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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:18:54 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: creativejani
Subject: Maharaji, the plane, and EV
Message:
If you get a reply I'll buy you a bottle of champagne (Latvian champagne of course, and you'll have to come here to drink it!).

Actually, I quite like the idea of buying you a bottle of champagne, so I'll buy you one even if you don't get a reply.

John (how is our friend - is she back yet?)

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 08:25:20 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Maharaji, the plane, and EV
Message:
I've just sent an email to EV querying this Not God assertion. Do you have it on tape, by any chance? I've just thrown all of my old tapes away - wish I'd kept them now!

Can I have a bottle of champagne too please John?

Anth the thirsty.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:43:46 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Quotes and Champagne
Message:
Anth,

You are also very welcome to a bottle of champagne, under the same conditions as I gave Jani.

BTW, if I organise a get together of ex-premies at my house one evening can I call it a Latvian Night?

I have a box full of tapes, but I'm confused about which quote you're refering to. Anyway, how could you throw such divine artifacts away? I have the complete set from Kissimee 78 or 79. There must be some good stuff in there if I could stand to listen to it!

John the open invitation

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 19:09:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Latvian Night at John's.
Message:
Hi John,

Being as you live in Latvia, and a are a Latvian, I think it will be OK to call it a Latvian night, but we can check and make sure.

OK, what do I have to do for the champagne and does it involve a sling and men with very clean fingernails?

Anth the Estonian.

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Date: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 21:38:37 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What you have to do for the Champagne...
Message:
...turn up. Although a bottle of Cornish finest would also help.

John the currently drinking Latvian Cranberry Degvins (it's actually vodka, but as vodka is the Russian word and Degvins - literally burning wine - is the Latvian word, I'll use the Latvian word)

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Date: Mon, May 21, 2001 at 22:25:08 (GMT)
From: creativejani
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Maharaji, the plane, and EV
Message:
No, she's not back yet - and the champagne sounds good! Even if it IS Latvian - do they grow grapes over there, then? Not getting it confused with beer, are you?

I'm printing your offer off, and I'll hold you to it!

Waiting for an email from EV...

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