Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:39:52 (GMT)
From: May 07, 2001 To: May 20, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Francesca -:- Mike Donner, can you help me here? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:03:46 (GMT)
__ Dr. Love, Phd, JSCA -:- I'm not Mike but . . . -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:57:25 (GMT)
__ __ Dr Strangelove -:- Very astute observations. Perfessor -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:33:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- OCD -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 13:22:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daisy -:- OCD -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 16:45:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- OK, I know this one -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 19:29:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- That's the same thing I heard too -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 18:18:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- True Story -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 17:48:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I'm not a premie so what does ROLF mean? -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:49:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- ROFL is a computer internet term -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Tx -- that's right -- forgot that one! n/t -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:13:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jsk -:- lol NT -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 20:05:52 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Hey bro',can you spare a grand? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:00:30 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- Mass Hysteria at Ivory's Rock -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:20:09 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Mind -:- I was at that Brighton Cultarama -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 10:28:30 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- The Grace Race: the meek shall inherit the earth -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:40:30 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Pay per darshan -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:29:02 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Pay per darshan -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 16:43:59 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- He'd NEVER eat in front of premies! -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 22:04:25 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Sir Dave, you've been to Amsterdam too much... -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 03:44:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Table dancing at Ted's new club -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 19:12:43 (GMT)
__ __ Anal Sphincter -:- Pay per darkshan -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 06:19:34 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Sir D, where the hell did ya get those ideas? (nt) -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 04:08:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Not Amsterdam but -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 19:19:35 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Ah so that's how you make a profit in a restaurant -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:15:20 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- I'm on my way ! -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 03:12:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Babs, I knew you were game! -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:19:33 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- for you bubbela, I'd do it. -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:30:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I'd do it. I bet you've done it. I have too. -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:46:19 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- What no roped off spendthrift section? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:11:24 (GMT)

Peter Howie -:- Cunning bugger re: Darshan -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 00:13:35 (GMT)

JHB -:- To Catweasel, and any other Premies -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:44:52 (GMT)
__ CW -:- To Catweasel, and any other Premies -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 01:43:22 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- To Catweasel, and any other Premies -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:14:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- So what did you sing to him at Amaroo? Arti? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 23:58:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CW -:- So what did you sing to him at Amaroo? Arti? -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:36:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- So you worship Prem Rawat as God incarnate -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 16:34:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Larkin -:- Arti - the updated lyrics... -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 18:37:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- ****BEST OF LARKIN*****NOMINATION n/t -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 22:46:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- LARKINS REVISED ARTI SHLD BECOME EPO'S PERMANENTLY -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 20:13:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Why don't you get a teddy bear? -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 16:55:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Did you also sing: ''You are my mother?'' - NT -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:22:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Did you also sing: I saw you crying in the chapel -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 12:45:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- CW's evasions tell their own story yet again (nt) -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 18:43:16 (GMT)
__ __ Sam Hardy -:- To Catweasel, and any other Premies -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 04:08:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ CW -:- JHB, Sam Hardy et al -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 07:19:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- This Forum -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 07:49:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- CW's evasions tell their own story well enough(nt) -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 13:57:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Ignoring you is Commonsense not Evasion (nt) -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 07:53:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- The reason I try to debate with Catweasel -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 09:33:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Heart, my friend -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 12:48:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- My perspective's better than yours! -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 22:05:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- You think so? -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 00:35:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Yes I do think - you should try it! -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 05:02:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CW -:- Yes I do think - you should try it! -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 10:28:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- ...will still love the hit-and-run killer guru? -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 18:03:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Catweasel, True Defender of the Perfect Master -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 21:42:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- This Forum -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:04:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Precisely, Jethro -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:50:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Precisely, Jethro -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 21:17:52 (GMT)

JHB -:- A Free Choice from ELK -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:16:16 (GMT)
__ GM -:- A Free Choice from ELK--Alkie -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 15:15:23 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- A Free Choice from ELK--Alkie -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 15:26:35 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- Probably a nice guy -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:59:20 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- Thank you, Jim -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:48:05 (GMT)
__ __ Lurker #27 -:- Yeah right on Pauline, but what about -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 15:18:03 (GMT)
__ Daneane -:- A Free Choice from ELK -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:32:56 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- pretty funny -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:28:35 (GMT)

SB -:- Secret meeting in Miami for the 'generous' donors? -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:21:27 (GMT)
__ Curious George -:- Secret meeting in Miami for the 'generous' donors? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 02:34:50 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- His extravagant lifestyle is what premies support, -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 14:06:01 (GMT)
__ Elan Vital -:- Its not secret, you're invited -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:28:41 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- wrong link NT -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:33:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elan Vital -:- wrong link NT -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:47:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- APPRECIATION PROGRAM?? -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:41:44 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Premies, test your 'Understanding' right here! -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:11:32 (GMT)
__ Christian Star -:- Premies, test your 'Understanding' right here! -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 02:16:43 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Christian,do you believe in'Christian Morality' or -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 17:09:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Christian Star -:- Christian,do you believe in'Christian Morality' or -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 18:39:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- WRONG!!!! -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 13:34:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Christian,you're a bit glossy for my taste.... -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 02:05:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- I am not speaking to please anyone's taste -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 15:21:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- C'mon Christian, we can still be buddies, OK? -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:18:43 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- God, you're NOT joking, are you? -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 04:44:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Christian Star -:- God, you're NOT joking, are you? -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 17:53:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Whether it was an accident is NOT the point -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 05:37:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Hit and run? With a UFO? -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 17:45:59 (GMT)
__ Sri Ramakishka -:- And when yer finished w/that, take your SAT's. . . -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 01:50:20 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- So... -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:23:42 (GMT)
__ __ Christian Star -:- So... -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 18:05:51 (GMT)
__ __ Dickie Pwickie -:- Premies are way beyond a questionnaire -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:29:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ David -:- Premies are way beyond a questionnaire -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:42:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Premies are way beyond a questionnaire -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:09:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ David -:- Premies are way beyond a questionnaire -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 23:07:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Luke Pewk -:- Thank you Dickie for telling these ex-premies -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 23:25:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dickie Pwickie -:- Speak for yourself Luke -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:59:15 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Sadism A Part Of Knowledge? -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 13:43:47 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Loneliness or aloneness? -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 19:42:22 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Great Post Chris, But... -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:52:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- needing people - same as needing to love people? -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 19:36:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- steve listen to me closely: -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 09:25:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Another Great Post, But... -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 16:35:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- what about YOUR world? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 22:25:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- You've Got Mail, Sweetheart -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 15:09:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Acquiring fatty deposits -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 21:23:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Acquiring fatty deposits -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 14:58:49 (GMT)
__ SB -:- are you a masochist? LOL -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:11:12 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- I hear you -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 13:48:12 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- the void.. -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:27:53 (GMT)

Joe -:- Of Faith Based/Tax Exempt 'Churches' -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 03:06:44 (GMT)
__ Christian Star -:- Of Faith Based/Tax Exempt 'Churches' -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 17:07:48 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Also forgot to say -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:55:40 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- See G's post below. The tax codes don't lie -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:53:20 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- If they are noncooperative it may cost them -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 19:29:40 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- 5K?That's five diners at Dayas eatin pasta+wine.nt -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:17:12 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Just found out that EV may not be a church -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 19:24:29 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Strange,,,, but interesting. What is going on? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 20:48:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Strange,,,, but interesting. Update. -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 22:35:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Strange,,,, but interesting. What is going on? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 21:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- EV is listed as a church in a downloadable file. -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:29:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- G and Joe -- just found out that church is one ... -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 23:08:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- G - can you send me an e-mail? -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 18:01:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Don't quite follow -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 05:34:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Good Work Francesca.... -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 01:04:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- WB . Stores Limited was the Company that -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 23:20:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks Bin, G, Joe -- curioser and curioser -:- Fri, May 11, 2001 at 05:43:21 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Does it really claim to have no members? -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:33:01 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Does it really claim to have no members? -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:54:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- See Joe's post below -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 04:30:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- See Joe's post below -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 04:59:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- See Joe's post below -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:07:50 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Yes -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:48:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- I suspect it's a bit of a bind, legally -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:16:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Food for thought -- monkey cookies -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:56:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Food for thought -- monkey cookies -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 20:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I wanna see the organ grinder -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 21:26:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Agree with your approach -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 18:40:56 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i'm peein myself with hilarity! Zero members? -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 11:48:29 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Of Faith Based/Tax Exempt 'Churches' -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:52:53 (GMT)
__ Barry -:- Really well thought out post Joe. -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 03:45:37 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Great Post, Joe... -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:44:03 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- 2 pages article in a daily paper tomorrow -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:27:26 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Great article today on EV in newspaper -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 10:33:55 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- first translation attempt: w apologies -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:56:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- Thank you, thank you, thank you... -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:09:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- WOW janet, thanks, thanks!! ***** n/t -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:37:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Thanks JM, and janet for the translation. Merci nt -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:10:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- first translation attempt: w apologies -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:30:45 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Great article today on EV in newspaper -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:35:39 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Good News Jean- Michael -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 12:52:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- DITTO -- well done, keep us posted! n/t -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- EV article on TV press review today !! -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:27:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ anymous incognito -:- EV article on TV press review today !! -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 00:43:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- EV article on TV press review today !! -:- Sat, May 12, 2001 at 04:52:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- This Poster's Identity -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 22:21:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- He is No humanitarian darling: Think again -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 22:04:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Get Lost Bjorn! You Asshole! -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 18:08:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- come on, Bjorn, you can't be serious -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 01:40:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey FA! Isn't Bjorn banned? nt -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 18:18:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- It's not because he's rich dumbo ... -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 01:11:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- well said, Bin Liner, thanks, nt -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 21:27:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- JM-did anyone record that TV spot? nt -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 21:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- The TV spot IS online ! -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:48:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Just when he was going to do his post Amarscroo -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 18:45:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- EV article on TV press review today !! -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:37:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- No heliport in Versailles I guess -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:47:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks J-M..He should walk...needs the exercise!nt -:- Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:18:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Thanks J-M..:)nt -:- Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 01:20:36 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:03:46 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mike Donner
Subject: Mike Donner, can you help me here?
Message:
Dear Mike,

In a post below, started by Joe on May 8, first thread 'the impeccability requirement,' we discussed M's obsessions with impeccability and perfection. I won't go through all the things we said down there, but several of us began to wonder whether M possibly has obsessive compulsive disorder. We also wondered if he perhaps has sort of abnormal cleanliness fetish. Someone mentioned that he washed his hands a lot, and didn't like to touch door handles. It was speculated that the reason for that may not be so much that he didn't want to touch a door handle that was touched by mere mortals, but that perhaps he thought he'd get germs (or cooties or something) from it--that by people touching it, it was unclean somehow.

I remembered your post, which I finally found from March 9, 2001, below. This snip comes from your exit letter to M.

Recently, when we shock hands at your birthday party, it was quite significant for me. I came around a corner and there you were. I had not seen you for some time, and when our eyes met I felt joy and I know you did too. spontaneously, I offered you my hand (married and living in Oregon, that is what we do first with old dear friends...perhaps before an embrace). You took it but it was the 'cold fish' hand shake and you immediately porceeded to joke about it...'gotta wash my hand now...what if everyone wanted to shake my hand', etc. I was hurt and disappointed because my simple spontaneous jesture could not be accepted and reciprocated (I was not accepted).

Mike, do you think that maybe he doesn't want to touch anyone's hand? I just wondered, because although I don't like what M does to people, usually the people who inflict the most hurt and pain on others in this world are very, very sick puppies themselves.

Am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Peace,

Francesca

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:57:25 (GMT)
From: Dr. Love, Phd, JSCA
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I'm not Mike but . . .
Message:
Anyone smoking doobs with x-rated boobs couldn't be that obsessive/compulsive about germs - but I wasn't there - maybe he just bogarted half the spliff before passing it on to the rest of the stoners. Also he apparently doesn't mind thousands of people kissing his feet. Of course I'm not Mike, but it seems clear from his post that m was just not embracing him or accepting his gesture of love and Mike felt offended and rejected. I think the only thing m is really obsessive/compulsive about is retaining our money and subordination. All this atomic clock/cleanliness/order shtick is just part of the control trip - holding the premies to a strict standard of performance - to my mind this about control and subordination. However I did read on somebody's thread that m liked his glass of cognac covered while the premie/servant bought it to him . . . but he probably saw a proper English butler doing this in an old movie and wanted the same treatment.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:33:19 (GMT)
From: Dr Strangelove
Email: None
To: Dr. Love, Phd, JSCA
Subject: Very astute observations. Perfessor
Message:
He is definitely not neurotic. He is quite normal psychologically except that he suffers from a form of child-molestation syndrome in that he was subjected to bhakti-juju guruism by his own father at a very tender and impressionable age. He also is a bit of a greedy pig.

PatC

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 13:22:10 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Dr Strangelove
Subject: OCD
Message:
I think he is a psycho with OCD. However, in India people do not like to shake hands, so there is also a cultural component.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 16:45:08 (GMT)
From: Daisy
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: OCD
Message:
I think the not shaking hands in India is a result of their use of a lota after going to the bathroom. They use a lota (a kind of pitcher of water) and their hand to clean up instead of toilet paper. I think everyone is taught to use either the left or the right hand, I'm not sure which. That hand is considered 'unclean.' Correct me if I'm wrong, some of you who know India.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 19:29:36 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Daisy
Subject: OK, I know this one
Message:
Having done time in India, I can assure you that the left hand is used for wiping and the right hand is used for eating and never the twain shall be switched or thou shalt be struck by lightning amen. Also, the lota isn't a pitcher with a spout. It looks more like a brass spittoon.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 18:18:37 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Daisy
Subject: That's the same thing I heard too
Message:
from premies that went to India. They actually tried to make us use a lota and go w/o toilet paper for a while at the Soul Rush ashram where I lived in 1973, but you still need to dry off, so that was a failed experiment. Yucko.

It's a little pot of water that you pour over your privates and you do wiping with your hand.

--f

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 17:48:02 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: True Story
Message:
Ever hear this one? An Indian Mahatma came to a U.S. ashram. Went to the bathroom. Called out from the bathroom that to bring him some water. The housemother brought him a glass -- on ICE...!!! ROFL!!!!!
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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:49:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: I'm not a premie so what does ROLF mean?
Message:
Another Marajism?

Funny story though.

--f

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:50:22 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: ROFL is a computer internet term
Message:
Rolling
On
The
Floor
Laughing
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:13:02 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Tx -- that's right -- forgot that one! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 20:05:52 (GMT)
From: jsk
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: lol NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:00:30 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hey bro',can you spare a grand?
Message:
A few details on the 'fine dining' experience at Amaroo.

Dayas fine dining took in over a half million in sales for the recent kangaroo hop.
The dinners were a minimum of $150, and since all the labor was free, the only expense was for the food itself.
My source estimated that about $20-$25 was spent on each dinner, including a cheap botle of wine.
He figured that out of the half million in sales, at least 80% was pure profit ($400,000).
Some diners paid $1,000 or more to be at the fine dining experience, as m was at most of them.
They were all sold out, and some people who wanted to get in, couldn't.

Also, m said that he wanted the premies to grow up and respect each other, so he eliminated the ticketing procedure of reserved seating.

As a result, there was a mad rush each day to get in close to the stage, and many people were treated very shabbily.
They had to prevent a number of people from getting trampled by overzealous premies, particularly from south america and new york.

Consequently, they are now back to the old system of assigned seating.
M was upset.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:20:09 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Mass Hysteria at Ivory's Rock
Message:
Also, m said that he wanted the premies to grow up and respect each other, so he eliminated the ticketing procedure of reserved seating.

As a result, there was a mad rush each day to get in close to the stage, and many people were treated very shabbily.
They had to prevent a number of people from getting trampled by overzealous premies, particularly from south america and new york.

Consequently, they are now back to the old system of assigned seating.

Christ, how long has this seating debate been going on? I can remember the same thing happenning way back at the time he had his first impromptu program at Tierra de l'amor in Argentina. People were rushing to sit near the stage and m chastised everyone for not being tranquilo. Does anyone remember the 5 day program in Brighton sometime back in the early '90s - m had decided for the series of programs he was holding at this time there would be no assigned seating so people were lining up at 6:00 a.m. in the morning to finally get in at 10:00 a.m. and even then all the 'good' seats were somehow already taken. Methinks much ado about nothing but it does say something about this whole cult of personality deal m has cult-ivated - and the expectation that his most ardent followers be in the flow enough to not act like they were a buncha louts at a soccer match. Curious.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 10:28:30 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: I was at that Brighton Cultarama
Message:
It was total chaos at times waiting to get in to see blubber butt. We'd wait for hours and then some 'unconscious' premies would just jump the barricade and go right in. Rawat's Robots are a strange, strange bunch !
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:40:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: The Grace Race: the meek shall inherit the earth
Message:
Not the most enlightened behavior. I wonder if the Israelites trampled over each other to hear Jesus' sermon on the mount? Probably sadly. If not, I bet the rats in that grace race still saved the best spaces for themselves. It's all idol worship whether it's a urug, popstar or the golden calf. Yuk! Mass hysteria indeed.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:29:02 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Pay per darshan
Message:
Reading your post I suddenly had a vision of Maharaji sitting on a stage in a restaurant, eating his dinner, while below him at the tables were the premies, all in dinner jackets (and the female equivalent), eating their dinners while they gazed at the Lord on stage, munching his chapati and dahl. Kind of surreal.

I can give Maharaji some more ideas for this pay-per-darshan, if he wants because I don't think he's taken full advantage of the many possibilities.

How about a coin operated toilets where instead of inserting a bit of small change to enter, you had to submit a 100 dollar bill to get into the toilets and there was the possibility that the Maha might be having a shit in the cubicle next to you.

The Maha could also organise 'Peep Shows' where the premies could sit in little private cubicles and insert a 100 dollar bill into the machine and then the little slot opens through which they could peer at the Lord while he sat and watched TV or shouted at somebody.

For $1,000 they could go into a bigger private one-to-one cubicle with Maharaji himself with only a glass screen separating them. They could then tell the Maha what they wanted him to do in this 'darshan encounter' cubicle. For instance, they could ask him to look all-knowing or for another $1,000 they could ask him to take his socks off. There would of course, be a little letter box thingy where the premie could pass the money through to the Maha for each thing they asked him to do.

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 16:43:59 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Pay per darshan
Message:
Hey that happened. The eating part I mean :) He had dinner at a restaurant in Philly with the whole lot of the family and premies were 'allowed' to sit at tables at a lower elevation.
The whole family ignored us. I told this story recently here, and mentioned that my strongest memory of that day was being terrified the angy Catholic neighbors would start kicking the shit out of us as the premies dropped to the sidewalk to pranam when the Hole -ie Family walked by.

ps they do have those rooms here in the US. Don't even ask me how I know cause I'm not telling.

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 22:04:25 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: He'd NEVER eat in front of premies!
Message:
Hi!

I read your visualization of Rev Do-Bad eating his dinner in front of everyone. I don't think he would. What if he got beef in between his front teeth? Or, worse, spinach? How would he know?

Premies all looking at his mouth, all terrified to say anything to him....''You tell him,'' ''No YOU tell him, not me!''

Anyway, he probably just schmoozed the crowd with cognac in hand looking for the very well dressed elite crowd.

It would be a great opportunity for prassad, though!

Yucky!

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 03:44:22 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave, you've been to Amsterdam too much...
Message:
That's the only place I've ever seen some of those little rooms, windows and boxes you talk about.

Now I never actually saw any of that stuff when in Europe, I just heard about it from some wayward premies who wandered into that city of sin once or twice after programs in Europe...

But you are right: M has NOT lived up to this full potential until he has tried some of your ideas...they are very innovtive and can bring in some good hard green stuff.

I suggest you write EV immediately and suggest that they try them at the next amaroo...

If they want to do a trial run, perhaps TED Farkel can give them a whirl down at the TRAC Center...he and Mr.eDrek can probably find some backers for the project...

Nice work...

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 19:12:43 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Table dancing at Ted's new club
Message:
with Maharaji as the main star. He'd pick up a LOT of dough at a grand a time to come and wave his arms about at your table. Well actually, I think a grand's too cheap.

What would a premie pay to have the Lord of the Universe do a private dance at their table?

Ten grand, 100K, a million?

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 06:19:34 (GMT)
From: Anal Sphincter
Email: Nasal Appendage.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Pay per darkshan
Message:
How about a coin operated toilets where instead of inserting a bit of small change to enter, you had to submit a 100 dollar bill to get into the toilets and there was the possibility that the Maha might be having a shit in the cubicle next to you.
Howzabout paying $1,000 for m to shit on you? But come to think of it this has been happening all the way along.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 04:08:53 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir D, where the hell did ya get those ideas? (nt)
Message:
lkjh
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 19:19:35 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Not Amsterdam but
Message:
Soho in London. I am friends with a girl who worked there. I went to see her one day and got a free peep in the peep-show although I never tried the 'Nude Encounter'.

That was back in the eighties when I tried my hand at stripping in a gay striptease joint. Well the punters seemed to like me but the management gave me the sack, probably because I'm not gay and no Mr Universe.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:15:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Ah so that's how you make a profit in a restaurant
Message:
The industry standard is 6% profit. The actual product does not cost much but overheads and labor eat up almost 80%. I guess the Amaroo restaurant pays no rent or labor. The usual mark-up on food is to multiply the cost of raw ingredients by four to cover overheads and labor. Wine is marked up by 50%.

Anyone want to wash dishes in my restaurant for no wages just food?

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 03:12:08 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: PatC
Subject: I'm on my way !
Message:
I have many, many years experience washing dishes for food. It's my specialty.
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:19:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Babs, I knew you were game!
Message:
You, Janet and me will never starve. In my hippie/gopi days my mom always said that I would survive the nuclear holocaust because I could get by with so little and make the most out of almost nothing. So when do you wanna start?
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:30:33 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: for you bubbela, I'd do it.
Message:
I'm on ssi and ssdi so i dont ned to get paid in money. and i'm an old dumpster diva to boot, so let me work off your kitchen leftovers. you dont even have to cook them for me, just let me cull what i can use and i'll feed myself.

barter and trade.
i hate money.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:46:19 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I'd do it. I bet you've done it. I have too.
Message:
The problem is finding a landlord who will barter you an apartment in SF where a studio in the ghetto costs $1,500 a month. That's an awful lot of bartering. Of what? We're not young and pretty anymore, darling.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:11:24 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: What no roped off spendthrift section?
Message:
M must have been listening to my complaints about heirarchy and roped off sections for the rich and (no famous ones yet)

Is it really true that the plebs got to sit in the front row if they were pushy enough?

Unbelievable.

Glad he told them to grow up even if it was his idea in the first place.

Loved you Intrductory video story.

Spoke to a luxury diner recently - he said the food wasn't that good.

C.G.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 00:13:35 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cunning bugger re: Darshan
Message:
From the story below - re: Not making darshan because it was 'a spur of the moment thing' - which however I thought got repeated the next day?

Anyway - it means that those that missed out will leave with a sense of needing more - always a good sales position - but what a bugger if you had spent a fortune going for that very reason.

Cheers

peter howie

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:44:52 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Premies
Subject: To Catweasel, and any other Premies
Message:
Do you bring new people to Knowledge? This is a serious question. If Knowledge is the real thing, then I am sure the answer is yes. So, second question - how many people have you brought to knowledge in the last 10 years? Also, how many of your non-premie friends and colleagues have been invited to video events, and what proportion have attended?

I suppose what I'm trying to ask is, 'Are you proud of following Maharaji?'.

John.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 01:43:22 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: To Catweasel, and any other Premies
Message:
Yes
You would be shocked
Yes I am proud of M
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:14:27 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: To Catweasel, and any other Premies
Message:
Fair enough, Cat, so if you're proud of Maharaji, you'll have no problem in telling me how many people you've brought to Knowledge in the last 10 years (must be dozens at least). Also, tell me how your colleages and non-premie friends react to being invited to, and attending, video events.

Also, if you're really proud, you'll have no problem posting under your real name. Don't you agree?

So, Cat, numbers, reactions, and real name. Prove to me you're proud of Maharaji.

Also, I asked you below if we met in Leeds. Did we?

John Brauns

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 23:58:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: So what did you sing to him at Amaroo? Arti?
Message:
CW,

Come on now, if you are proud of m and your 'relationship' with m, surely you are not ashamed to share a few lines of the devotional song called 'Arti' that you sang to him at Amaroo. You said before that you can't remember all the lines. Ok, fair enough, but how about a few lines? If you couldn't remember any of the lines, how could you have sung Arti to him?

I don't know, maybe you need some help remembering. The Arti that was sung to him years ago (by many premies twice a day) is shown below (from the Arti page on this site). I asked you before if you sang 'You are the superior power in person' to him and you said you did not. Well I didn't remember correctly (a good sign!), the line was actually 'Our Lord is the superior power in person I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.' Did you sing this to him? Note also that after singing Arti to m, we would bow down before him. Did you bow down before him after singing Arti to him?

So did you sing this song to him at Amaroo? Which lines are still the same and which are different? I would suppose the Hindi lines have been removed or translated. Care to supply some details? If you don't answer, we can only assume that you sang something close to this as part of your practice of 'Knowledge'. What were you saying before, that 'Knowledge' is only about your personal experience? But later you said it is a 'package deal', I suppose this song is part of the package. Are you proud of this song?

Arti:

Guru Brahma, Guru Vishnu,
Guru Devo-Maheshwara,
Guru sakshat, Param Brahma
tas mai Shri Guru vai namaha.

Dhyana mulam guru murti,
Puja mulam guru paduka
Mantra mulam guru vakyam,
Moksha mulam guru kripa.

Meditation begins in the form of our master,
Adoration begins at the feet of our lord,
Concentration begins in the words of our master,
Liberation begins in the grace of our lord.

Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
Your glory fills the world
Protector of the weary and the weak
You bring the death of attachment
You bring the mind true detachment
Save us from the ocean deep
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Creator, Preserver, Destroyer
Bow their heads and pray to You
All bow and pray to You
Scriptures sing Your glory
Heaveny hosts sing Your praises
Your virtues are ever true
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity
never bring you knowledge of the soul
will never reveal your soul
without the grace of satguru
without the Knowledge of Satguru
rites and rituals never reach the goal
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

In the river of bondage to maya
All are swept out to sea
All are sinking in the depths of the sea
Guru's boat is the holy name
Guru's ship is the holy word
In seconds he has set us free
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Anger, desire, attachments
Rob us of eternal life
Take away our heavenly life
Satguru gives us true Knowledge
Satguru is eternal Knowledge
The sword that kills our problem life
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Religions harp their own glories
Call to follow their own path
Welcome me to follow their own way
The essence of all was revealed
The seed of all was revealed
I walk on the true way today
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Nectar from Satguru's feet is
Holy and it cleans us of our sins
So sacred in cleaning us of sin
When he speaks, darkness flies away
When he speaks, darkness cannot stay
Doubts removed, new life then begins
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Mine, thine, Heart, Time
Give them to the lotus feet of love
Give them to the lotus feet of the Lord
Give yourself to Satguru
Sacrifice yourself to Satguru
Be united with the blissful Truth
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Bible, Gita, the Koran
Sing the glory of Your Name
They all sing the glory of Your Name
Angels sing Your great glory
Heavenly hosts sing Your praises
They find no end to Your fame
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Desires have robbed me and left me
Trapped in the darkness of the night
Yes, they've trapped me in the darkness of the night
Guru gives holy Name and Light
Guru gives Holy Name and Sight
Cross the ocean by His Love and Light
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Many past forms you have taken
Now we have come in your control
Again You have come to save the soul
In this time of darkness
To lead Your devotees from darkness
You have come as Hansa the pure soul
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Come to the shelter of Guru's grace
Come with your heart and your soul
Bring Him your heart and your soul
Cross the worldly ocean
Cross it by your devotion
And attain the supreme goal
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Jai Gurudev Maharaj Ji
Your glory fills the world
Protector of the weary and the weak
You bring the death of attachment
You bring the mind true detachment
Save us from the ocean deep
Jai Dev, Jai Satgurudev

Our Lord is the maker of all things created
He keeps them and brings them
all home to his word

Our Lord is the superior power in person
I bow down before such a wonderful Lord.

Twameva Mata, chaa pita twameva
Twameva bhandu chaa sukha twameva
Twamev vidya dravinam twameva
Twamev sarvam muma deva deva
Twamev sarvam muma deva deva
Twamev sarvum muma deva deva

You are my mother and you are my father
you are my brother and you are my friend
you are riches, you are wisdom
You are my all, my lord to me.
You are riches, You are wisdom
You are my all, my Lord to me.

Guru Maharaj Ji, my life is within You
From You I was born and to You now I go
Forever I'm Yours, my longing is endless
This heart of mine aches to be one with You
Forever I'm Yours, my longing is endless
This heart of mine aches to be one with You

Wherever I look, Your face is before me
Your golden Love melts all my troubles away
I give You my heart, for in You it will mellow
Maharaj Ji my Lord, my life is Your play
I give You my heart, for in You it will mellow
Maharaj Ji my Lord, my life is Your play

Oh wondrous Lord, my Guru Mahraj Ji
Your grace is a river which flows on and on
You fill my heart with Your Love overflowing
Let me come home find my rest at Your feet
You fill my heart with Your Love overflowing
Let me come home find my rest at Your feet

Twameva Mata, chaa pita twameva
Twameva bhandu chaa sukha twameva
Twamev vidya dravinam twameva
Twamev sarvam muma deva deva
Twamev sarvam muma deva deva
Twamev sarvum muma deva deva

Tasmey Shri, Guru Deva Deva
Guru Vishnu, Guru Deva

Oh my Guru Maharaji,
you are all powerfull,
there is nothing in this world you cannot do,
you can do everything,
kindly save me,
kindly protect me,
and thank you my Lord for everything.

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:36:20 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: G
Subject: So what did you sing to him at Amaroo? Arti?
Message:
G whiz!
The third degree? I sang the song with affection and feeling.
Words?It shouldn't be too hard to figure out how we could all, old and new sing the same song. You seem pretty bright. Put your thinking cap on.
No , we did not 'bow down'. Why try and make it out to be anything other than what it was , a very sweet and enjoyable moment.
If you are so keen on knowing what happened I could recommend attending. So much better to have your own experience.
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 16:34:39 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: So you worship Prem Rawat as God incarnate
Message:
even though he is clearly not, as evidenced by the many revelations about his behavior and hard evidence of flagrantly excessive materialism (like his 106' yacht), also by a lack of evidence that he is.

You sang Arti with affection (read devotion, idolatry) and feeling. Do you also believe that what it says is literally true?

'the same song.'

So you are confirming that you sang Arti pretty much as it was sung before, I'm assuming with the Hindi words translated to English.

'No , we did not 'bow down'. Why try and make it out to be anything other than what it was , a very sweet and enjoyable moment.'

Did you bow down before him to kiss his feet? Were you at the Poconos program years ago? We all bowed down before Rawat, right down to the ground. Maybe you didn't physically bow down this time after Arti, but you might as well have, you were verbally bowing down to him by singing this song to him. Do you really think anyone is stupid enough to believe it was only a 'very sweet and enjoyable moment'? Just a quick look at the words and one can see that is clearly a false statement. Consider 'Our Lord is the superior power in person.' Do you actually believe that Rawat is your 'Lord' and 'the superior power in person'? That is not just a sweet feeling, that's one hell of a wacky belief.

'If you are so keen on knowing what happened I could recommend attending. So much better to have your own experience.'

Been there, done that, and I don't recommend attending. Rather than feeling an unrequited 'love' for some person I don't know, I would rather love the people who are actually in my life.

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 18:37:43 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Arti - the updated lyrics...
Message:
Vegetation begins in the word of our master
Re-education begins at the feet of our lord
Subjugation begins in the form of our master
Humiliation begins in the grace of our lord.

Jai Gurudev Maharaj ji
Your glory fills your head
Exploiter of the weary and the weak
You know the power of entrapment
You showed us all just what 'crap' meant
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev

Fabricator, self-server, destroyer
Why do they bow and pray to you?
Have they really nothing better to do?
Guru gives true Knowledge
Sign on right here at Mindwarp College
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev

Chanting, fasting, charity, austerity
Will never bring you knowledge of the soul
Will never reveal your soul
Without the grace of Satguru
WITH OR WITHOUT our rich fat guru
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev

In the river of bondage to Guru
All are swept out to sea
All are drowning there so blissfully
Guru's boat is a holey one
A 'watch yourself drown very slowly' one
Realization don't come cheap, Jai Dev
Jai Satguru Dev

Anger, desires, attachments
Are what being human's all about
Things we couldn't really do without
Guru don't like self-expression,
But anger suppressed is depression
TIME TO LOSE YOUR CHAINS, STAND UP AND SHOUT!
(Jai Dev, Jai Satguru Dev)

Jai Gurudev Maharaj ji
Tell us please, what sets you so apart?
Why should people even give a fart?
Without the grace of Satguru
We might all find we've a lot to do
Science, music, poetry and art, Jai Dev,
So long Satguru Dev....

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 22:46:32 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: ****BEST OF LARKIN*****NOMINATION n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 20:13:38 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: LARKINS REVISED ARTI SHLD BECOME EPO'S PERMANENTLY
Message:
POSTED ANTHEM!! Great composin' Larkin
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 16:55:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Why don't you get a teddy bear?
Message:
You can love the teddy bear all you want, you can hold it, it won't ask you for any money, you won't have to travel to have a 'relationship' with the teddy bear, and you won't have to endure any silly team meeting where you discuss how to put the cloth on the trinkets table.
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 08:22:06 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Did you also sing: ''You are my mother?'' - NT
Message:
k
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 12:45:23 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Did you also sing: I saw you crying in the chapel
Message:
Pat , I sang this

You can knock me down
Step on my face
Slander my name all over the place
But aha honey lay off of them shoes
Just dont you step on my blue suede shoes

OK you little mother?

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 18:43:16 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: CW's evasions tell their own story yet again (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 04:08:43 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: To Catweasel, and any other Premies
Message:
'You'd be shocked' is an answer? Why don't you shock JHB with a number?

If the Industrial Strength Church Ladies in PR were honest, they'd tell you numbers in the west are falling off. I know it's supposed be about quality, not quantity, but it's M who keeps bringing the numbers up.

CW may be doing a sterling job in the recruitment department, but there's a lot of slackers in there.

Or maybe people are more interested in re-cataloguing their teaspoon collection.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 07:19:55 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: JHB, Sam Hardy et al
Message:
Who gives a flying Toss?Bounce off some other sucker.
No we didn't John. My real name is Ernest Glyinski.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 07:49:52 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: This Forum
Message:
Cat,

This forum is for debating issues surrounding Maharaji. The fact that I read here means I do give a flying toss, and I presume that you are also interested in the subject because you keep coming back. But then you demonstrate your unwillingness, or inability, to enter into a serious debate.

Propagation is important to Maharaji, or at least he says it is. So if current premies post here, it's only reasonable to ask them about their personal experience in helping Maharaji propagate his gift of Knowledge. If you value Knowledge (and you've said that you do many times), and you are proud of Maharaji (you've just said so here), I cannot see any reason why you would not want to discuss your own personal experience of propagation.

So why don't you want to talk about this?

John.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 13:57:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: CW's evasions tell their own story well enough(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 07:53:18 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Ignoring you is Commonsense not Evasion (nt)
Message:
Not till hell freezes over would I waste breath on the likes of you Nigel
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 09:33:46 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The reason I try to debate with Catweasel
Message:
The reason I try to engage in rational debate with Catweasel is not because I expect him/her to debate rationally. No, I've been around for long enough to know that that is extremely unlikely to happen. All we'll get from Catweasel is that it's about feeling, nothing else.

No, the reason I do this is for anyone else who may be reading, who may be contemplating accepting Maharaji as their meditation teacher, or who may be contemplating rejecting Maharaji as their Master, or for whatever reason wants to know more about how having Maharaji as a teacher affects people.

I think such people reading debates between exes and Catweasel would quickly reach the position that premies have no cogent arguments to support their belief in Maharaji.

So I thank Catweasel for the service he/she performs.

John.

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 12:48:24 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Heart, my friend
Message:
Others may realise that you are just plain argumentitive
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 22:05:34 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: My perspective's better than yours!
Message:
Remember, Cat, I've been a premie, and I've evolved. I know I can judge how others view these exchanges better than you can. Just look at your response above to the question about singing the words to Arti. 99.9% percent of English speaking people will see your response as evasion, but you seem unwilling to see that.

Keep representing your master! Us exes need do very little to bring him down when he has supporters like you!:-)

John

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 00:35:25 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You think so?
Message:
Remember this JHB. You have your own subjective experience of life as do I . You show me absolutely no reason as to why I should share any information about my recent sojourn at Amaroo.
Are you asking so you can put a positive spin on things that I discuss with you (here on this 'public' forum!) Or do I play the role of a convenient launch pad for any number of tyrannical raves from those who have looked in on what was originally a conversation between G and me? Do you see Tony Blah racing over to Conservative headquarters and giving Haig an outline of Labours National conference? How silly do you think I am?

As for that snivelling low life gutter rat Nigel - next time you somehow get thru immigration at Sydney Airport , why not meet up with me and find out who you have been abusing for 2 years. I think you would melt on the spot , choke then crawl away and hide under the furniture. Sweetie, you are such a violent aggressive little man.....
Finally for anyone who thinks I'm here as right hand man to King Richard , flying in the face of the infidels , a true crusader....think again. A true defender of the 'Faith' requires one base foundation , faith and belief. I have neither and dont function from that perspective.K is tangible, real,incomprehensible
My understanding was that according to the Forum intro, this is an open forum. So I just mosey along

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 05:02:17 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: Yes I do think - you should try it!
Message:
Hey, I started this thread, not you and G, and you never answered my question. Reasons why you should? Well, you said it, you're proud of Maharaji, and believe Knowledge is a good thing, so you must have told all your non-premie friends and colleagues about him and it. Why not boast here about how successful you've been at propagation, and that your friends and colleagues can understand what we foolish exes have failed to understand.

OK, I'll be straight about my motives. I believe you haven't told anyone about Maharaji and Knowledge for years. This is because you have a 'normal' life and don't want your normal friends and colleagues to know that you're in a cult. I just wanted to get you to admit that - that was my motive in starting the thread.

But this thing about the experience of meditation proving anything should be challenged. I had top-drawer experiences in meditation (both before and after coming across Maharaji) and believed that they proved that Maharaji was the Superior Power in Person. I now no longer believe that, but instead believe that Maharaji is using the fact that many people can experience stuff from meditating, to con people into thinking it comes from him. Is there anything you can say, given that I appear to have had similar experiences to you (of course I can't prove that except to say that a few years ago I could have said the same things as you with total sincerity), to change my mind on this?

John.

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 10:28:13 (GMT)
From: CW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Yes I do think - you should try it!
Message:
You seem to be a person much taken with the meaning of language.
I know a number of English people. They seem to be far more rigid and rule bound than you could ever be here in Oz.K to me is unfathomable. It is without explanation. To me it doesn't prove a thing. It simply is. And I like it. All I can say about your estimation of me is that it is way off track. Think of it this way. Anomnity is universal. I give no clues. For anyone.

Good luck

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 18:03:42 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CW
Subject: ...will still love the hit-and-run killer guru?
Message:
Fuck off.
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 21:42:18 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Catweasel, True Defender of the Perfect Master
Message:
See, CW is here because he is the lone prophet in the wilderness of EPO defending his dear loving Master against all comers. Real faith you see is blind. Or is it? Maha himself said there was no need for blind faith because no-ledge was the proof-in-the-pudding. Can we therefore judge Maha by his actions? Well, unfortunately Maha breaks the pudding mold because the rules that apply to the rest of us wankers do not apply to him, he is above it. Well how about reason then? Sorry, no-ledge is the path of the heart and discernment is merely a boulder in the way. Love is blind - aha, so true. So CW, enjoy the gift and feel your devotion. All of us here have. May you continue to grow in love and be bound ever so tightly to his holy lotus feet but feel free to return if you feel stepped on.
Gary
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:04:32 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: This Forum
Message:
Hi John,
CW is a liar and a coward. I just can't understand why people here still converse with him. His anonynimity makes him a total non-entity here.

Being a cult member, divine deception(telling lies) is allowed.
I don't believe he's brought 'anyone to knowledge'. If he had at least one of them would have posted here by now.
He is proud of following a paedophille-protector(amongst other things); that puts him(cw) in the same ilk.

Take care

Jethro

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 08:50:06 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Precisely, Jethro
Message:
The anonymouse is obviously demented.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 21:17:52 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Precisely, Jethro
Message:
Pat:

Anonymousie *is* demented, but in a good way, and she hasn't posted here in ages. She'd eat Catweasel alive. Definitely a carnivorous mouse. She was apparently one of Jim's ashram cronies. I wonder what happened to her?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:16:16 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A Free Choice from ELK
Message:
From Jim Sakshaug on Enjoyinglife.org

A free choice

Where should I live?

In a house of cards, rooted in relentless
searching and apathetic complaisance. Propped up
by antidepressants, mood elevators, painkillers,
and wishful thinking;

or,

In a palace of gold, filled with the sound of
life. Where the essence of beauty and love is
felt. Where a fountain flows ambrosia. A place
with firm footing in the truth and being of the
breath of life.

Thank you for the choice.

P.S. I realize there are many legitimate needs for
medications.

Jim Sakshaug
Marblemount, Wa, USA

What do you think about Jim's PS?

John.

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 15:15:23 (GMT)
From: GM
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A Free Choice from ELK--Alkie
Message:
Have you noticed that ELK sounds rather a lot like 'alkie?'

As you know there is no free choice on this band wagon!

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 15:26:35 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: GM
Subject: A Free Choice from ELK--Alkie
Message:
Have you noticed that ELK sounds rather a lot like 'alkie?'

If I may ask, what does 'alkie' mean in this context. Do you mean alcoholic?

Steve

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:59:20 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Probably a nice guy
Message:
who doesn't want to make any premies feel guilty about taking medication, and stop taking it.

The two verses, however, make me think he is on the road to the brink: on one side, relinquish the cherished belief he is relying upon to help him through the night, on the other, hold on like grim death, and suffer.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:48:05 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thank you, Jim
Message:
Yes, we have a choice, now that we have been given that gift of that knowledge, which is that love and that peace, based on that breath. Jim is just so brilliant to point that out.

Now, I am not sure how one can be engaged BOTH in relentless searching AND apathetic complaisance at the same time. Isn't that kind of hard to do, in fact contradictory?

But I know this world is crazy and confused, so I'm sure that's what's going on. Jim probably knows better than I do. I'm sure he has an outside job and everything up there in the Cascades in Washington State. We at Elan Vital are always relentless and never apathetic, but then, we all have that gift, you know.

But it's sure true that people are always propping themselves up by all kinds of drugs But I know that now I never have to take painkillers. In fact, when I had my gall bladder surgery last year (made necessary only because I am such a worthless piece of shit and forgot that place, too many times), I had it done without the use of any painkillers. Why, I found that I fainted from the pain anyway, and really didn't need those things afterall. They just got in the way and would have been just placebos to help me cope with this miserable existence, instead of remembering to breathe, and to pray, I mean, keep in touch, with the Master.

It was all such a lesson of the kind of choice I really have, like Jim says. I don't want to live my life propped up by things like antibiotics, inocculations, and anesthesia. Come to think of it, I bet vitamins and herbal medications are just crutches too. Who needs them? All I need is to breathe, and to love Maharaji. I was realizing this just the other day, as I was having a cigarette and drinking some beer. In fact, cocaine may be the next thing to go. Who needs it, really? I might give that up one of these days, too.

All you ex-premies are just getting by through the use of drugs. Otherwise, you would be in such agony for having abandoned the Perfect Master, that you would have ground your teeth down to stumps. As you know, without Maharaji, we are nothing more than the bacteria that consumes human excrement in portable toilets.

Isn't it just so beautiful?

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 15:18:03 (GMT)
From: Lurker #27
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Yeah right on Pauline, but what about
Message:
those of us who keep in touch by using drugs?
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:32:56 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A Free Choice from ELK
Message:
That is just tooo funny. I'm surprised that one made the cut...it does seem to imply 'from mentally ill to premie'. Maybe a feeble attempt to prove there is nothing mentally ill about being a premie? Wishful thinking seemed to be grouped in the wrong set of choice characteristics though.

'I watch my television because it tells me that I should'

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:28:35 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: pretty funny
Message:
The 'sisters' I knew when a premie took antidepressent and antianxiety meds. And those were just the ones who admitted it.

Wonder what he thinks legit uses are for meds after his original statement which implies one would not need them if one had , uh, whatever it is they say they have.

As for relentless searching I have more money and time these last few years than I ever had while rooted in traveling to see M.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:21:27 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Secret meeting in Miami for the 'generous' donors?
Message:
Have anybody heard of a program this week in Miami?

I didn't want to ask questions at the time a premie mentioned he was invited (I wish I did)to an special meeting. Is it true?

Thanks,

sb

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 02:34:50 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Secret meeting in Miami for the 'generous' donors?
Message:
Yes, there is a meeting in Miami this Friday & Saturday, departing on Sunday. The person that told me about it is A Generous Donor...

He didn't tell me it was secret though.

Interesting - i wonder if he's going to have to donate some More money or will it be just a thankyou.

C.G.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 14:06:01 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: His extravagant lifestyle is what premies support,
Message:
NOT the propagation of his crappy knowledge.

Of course he is going to give SOME money, in some way. He will reach for his wallet , or he will ve invited by the many donation boxes to give, or will want to buy some souvenir. You know how it goes. How many thousand of dollars I gave him! Bastard! Greedy guru? I detest him!

Still it amazes me how hard he has trapped his people making them believe, like in a trance, they are doing the right thing. How little premies can perceive of the real picture and how afraid they are to look at the possibility that they made a mistake. Maybe premies are this type of people that have a problem with Math, and cannot fathom to add or multiply. LOL. HE MAKES A LOT OF MONEY AT EACH EVENT. Can you imagine the check he gets from premies at those events and is TAX FREE! He trully is in heaven! Like a child, with all the toys, feeling important like a pompous cock. Aughhh..I'm glad I am not him, for sure. What a low human being, too ignorant.

Have a nice day. Don't monkey around too much. hahahaha :)

I point to him: Lets get'em

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:28:41 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Its not secret, you're invited
Message:
Dear Sister

Thank you for announcing this wonderful opportunity for everyone to show their appreciation.

Here is a link to the official invitation:

http://www.geocities.com/agforumdata/appreciation.jpg

EV

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:33:33 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: wrong link NT
Message:
n
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:47:09 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: wrong link NT
Message:
Gosh, we're really not synchronised here yet.

Please cut and paste the written link into your browser.

EV

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:41:44 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Elan Vital
Subject: APPRECIATION PROGRAM??
Message:
Why don't you cowards call it what it's, a fundraiser??

Hey, did you PAMs kiss his feet at Amaroo? I'm sure many of you did. How divine: You have your own God! You are so 'lucky' to believe it and even enjoy it; so much servitude and fantasy....and magic. What did Santa brought you? The power of the mind is great. Your picture's getting dirtier and dirtier.

TIP: Be careful. Question traditions!

BTW EV:I'm not un-synchronized, I'm being lazy.

;)

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:11:32 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Premies, test your 'Understanding' right here!
Message:
..by completing the following self-evaluation progress check.

(1) Explain the difference between:

(a) A real Master teaching
(b) A pretend Master pretending to teach
(c) A bloke on a stage talking

(2) Explain the difference between:

(a) a premie 'practising Knowledge'
(b) a non-premie simulating the practice of K using same yoga techniques
(c) an ex-premie simulating the practice of K using the same yoga techniques

(3) Why does an aspirant have to wait for K, and how would you decide if someone was ready?

(4) What is the difference between a hit and run driver and a contemptible piece of shit?

(5) What is the difference between a Lord of the Universe revealing a priceless 'gift' of 'Knowledge' and a bloke on a video describing some yoga techniques somebody once told him about?

(6) Describe the qualitative difference in K experience between a brand new premie and a premie who has practiced for 25 years.

(7) Have you realised Knowledge?

(8) Do you know anybody who has realised Knowledge?

(9) How would you know if you HAD realised Knowledge?

(10) Could you distinguish between a Master in permanent God-consciousness and a pretend Master who doesn't even meditate? If so, how?

(11) When Mr Rawat described himself as the 'Highest Incarnation of God standing before you', was he:

(a) Deluded
(b) One lying motherfucker
(c) Telling the truth?

(12) When the Elan Vital FAQ spokesperson asserts that Maharaji never claimed to be God, is he or she:

(a) Amnesic
(b) One lying motherfucker?

(13) Explain the difference between the average multi-millionaire playboy, sexual predator, nicotine-addicted leader of a personality cult and 'Maharaji'.

(14) Did you learn or gain anything from the last M video you watched? Please specify.

(15) What understanding do you hope to gain from the next M video you watch that you don't already possess?

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 02:16:43 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Premies, test your 'Understanding' right here!
Message:
Hmmm...too many questions and too little time, and you wouldn't like my answers anyway... but yes, I did learn something in the last video (satellite broadcast) I watched. One thing I learned that was helpful was that Maharaji considers the controversies between calling him 'Master' or 'Guru' to be just conceptual fluff. Up until this video, for a number of years, I was under the impression he would have a problem with my calling him my Guru. I am very glad to know I can call him that again, because the word Master has subtle meanings in the English culture that I truly believe Maharaji does not comprehend.

When I listen to Maharaji, though, the real thing I learn, again and again, is to focus on the most basic truth and every time it is very revitalizing for me, as if I have taken a shower -- fresh, clean, pure, inspired. He often also brings up points that really help me with current issues in my life. For instance, one of many examples is for instance when he talks about how the black and the white, the good and the evil, dark and light are within us -- and that the darkness in us is attracted to the darkness, while the light within us is attracted to the light.

And when he talks about such things, he often reminds me, in so many different ways, with different examples and different words, what I need to be reminded again and again -- that I do have the choice to choose the joy, even when things seem so very bleak. And most importantly, he reminds me again and again what I can never remember often enough and thus never tire of hearing: that the answer is within me, that fulfillment is within me and not a result of some formula; that I have riches within to mine; that I am really and truly worth something, that my life is worthwhile because I have such riches within.

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 17:09:36 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Christian,do you believe in'Christian Morality' or
Message:
any form of ethics, and would that moral or ethical code be part and parcel of any system or path of spiritual growth?(I know m says that he's not teaching anything spiritual, so let's just say growth...in particular, his teachings)

So, the question is, should a moral code be included in his teachings?

Every religion,yoga association, therapists group, massage therapists association etc., that I know of, has established some sort of ethical code of conduct.
This is necessary so that everyone is 'on the same page' about many things.
It is especially needed when dealing with power between people, and especially in the guru-devotee (teacher-student) relationship.
It is to protect people from manipulation.
There is nothing more intrusive than the guru-devotee relationship: for 12 years he told ashram residents what and how they should look at things, even what thoughts inside their own heads were good, how to live etc...all the time, he lived quite the opposite.

Gurus, (and former gurus), are notoriously lacking in this department of ethics and democracy.
The ethics around a guru generally seems to be something like this: whatever the guru wants, the guru gets, and that's what gets done.
Ethics are suspended in carrying out the wishes and the pleasing of the guru.
For instance, in just the last year in the community where I used to go, the community contact person told the inner circle of premies that 'M isn't into democracy.'

He told it with so much gusto, relishing this sort of wierd power trip, that I just couldn't take it.

So, one question I have for you, Christian, is:

Should there be a moral code that maharaji recommends and strives to live by himself?

Two:

Do you consider maharaji a 'moral man'?

Three:

Does it matter whether or not maharaji, as your master or teacher, leads what would be considered to be a moral lifestyle?

Four:

Should new people be told Everything abut maharaji before they receive knowledge, so that, knowing all sides of maharaji, not just the 'good side', but the 'other side' as well, they can then make their own informed decision about whether or not to take him as their teacher?

Five:

What would you do personally, if you brought someone into the knowledge process, they recieved knowledge, and then came to EPO, read some of this stuff, and were put into a horrible, gut wrenching state of mind, realizing that their new teacher had a huge immoral side to him that was not talked about or discusssed with them beforehand.

You obviously know all about EPO, but would you encourage the aspirant to come here and peruse the site during their aspirant process?

Finally:

If you would encourage them to peruse EPO, along with the pro-maharaji stuff, I have absolutely no problem with anything you might do.

On the other hand, if you knew about these allegations and purposely hid this stuff from the aspirant, I have LOTS of things to discuss with you.

La-ex
(BTW, I like your posts, and enjoy communicating with you)

PS: Would you please respond to me?

I've asked these questions of so many premies, and they always stop communicating when it gets to this point.
I'm not good at rejection, and it get a little lonely at times when this happens.

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 18:39:36 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Christian,do you believe in'Christian Morality' or
Message:
LOL, I enjoy communicating with you also la-ex, but my time is limited. I really shouldn't be online right now at all but attending to other duties. Your questions are voluminous, but hopefully I can satisfy both your questions and my time limitations with a few short comments.

I have a lot of problems with the most if not all sects of the Christian religion, and most especially a whole lot that is in the Bible. In fact, I am a fan of Madalyn Murray O'Hair's, the late and strident atheist's, comments regarding the Bible and the thievery, war and pillaging done in the name of Christianity and the Bible (not to mention other religions guilty of similar things).

That said, I feel Maharaji is absolutely and positively correct in not starting a religion -- which is exactly what there would be if he were to lay down a doctrine. Look at what 'Christians' have done to Jesus' teachings. I rest my case.

My own experience as a Christian as been almost entirely outside of any Christian churches -- supernatural, if you will. I do ascribe to just about all of the 'red letter' quotes of Jesus himself in the New Testament, but beyond that, I say fuck the Bible. LOL. Who needs a book when the experience is real -- and my experience with Jesus, to me, has been phenomenal but also very limited -- quite necessarily no doubt due to the fact that he's not in human body. But that's okay, Maharaji is here in human body and my belief and faith in Jesus and my belief in and gratitude for Maharaji have no conflict with one another.

I do not believe Maharaji is immoral.

I would not 'send' people to read this website because I believe that while there are very good points made that are very important, it is also very misleading. But no, I do not hide the fact of this site being here, and I basically tell anyone who wants to know my opinion on this website basically the same things I have posted here.

There is one thing I have not said, though, here or probably to others, and that is that I wish all the premies that would have any interest at all in reading and posting here would do so. It is my belief that if premies were not 'holding back' that there would be so many positive posts here about Maharaji that one would have to sift through 90% positive comments to read 10% negative -- because the fact is that in the grander scheme of things Maharaji really *does* have a heck of a lot more friends than enemies.

I have read here that Maharaji doesn't care about anyone but himself and his own family and 'PAMS' as they are called here, but I know differently. In fact I know someone he gave considerable assistance to -- who was a premie Maharaji did not 'know' -- along with a group of others, for instance a group of premies in a serious car accident on the way to one of his events. He was called and he provided plane tickets and hotel accommodations to a group of people he never met. But of course these are the kinds of stories one doesn't usually get to read here -- and the story would have much more effectiveness if I could say that I was one of those premies. It was a good friend of mine and I know the story is true, however.

I really must go now.

Take care.

P.S. Christianity morality to me means kindness; and Maharaji has promoted kindness also in his talks. I don't think he needs to go into further doctrine than that. Kindness is perhaps the best of morality.

Cheers
Christian Star

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 13:34:28 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: WRONG!!!!
Message:
I do not believe Maharaji is immoral

Why did he allowed his premies to kiss his feet at Amaroo and Miami?? It's inmoral to manipulate people! It's unnatural and damaging to people's sychics and since he has being informed and did nothing to change it to this date makes him a very dirty evil person; even if he thinks that is for premies own good he lies to people deliberatlly.

Explain to me why a person has to surrender to other and to kiss his feet to feel connected with the Universal Love or to feel human?

I could tell you few things but I only have few free minutes.

WHAT?? I can't believe you said that.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 02:05:46 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Christian,you're a bit glossy for my taste....
Message:
Christian, let me explain...

Maybe the real issue is simply trust versus lying.

I think we would all agree that trust is the foundation of any relationship,right?
The minute you can't trust someone, because you have proof that they have lied or deceived or manipulated you, you begin to realize that the relationship is over, or at least impaired in some way.
You can't really look at that person in the same way as you used to, because you realize there is now a credibility issue.

Are we in agreement so far?

I'll assume we are.

Now, to make a long story short, do you believe that maharaji has lied, deceived or manipulated premies in major ways?

(If you want to take the personal scandals reported here on EPO off the table of this discussion, that's fine with me.)

Let's just talk about verifiable,historical, provable facts.

His statements from the past about who he was, what he would do, how it would be for all of us, for whole the world, if we all only surrendered to his lotus feet and followed agya...

This is NOT cultural misunderstanding, language miinterpretation etc.

Do you REALLY believe he has not lied or deceived ?

If you feel he has not, I will bring up numerous examples, and would like to see you explain them.

If you feel he has lied, would you elaborate a bit on that?

Thanks,
La-ex

(BTW, by christian morality I meant a basic sense of morality which almost all religions and even professional associations agree upon.
You were quite slick, or glossy as I put it, when you said that maharaji should not start a religion.
I agree, he should not.
And I never asked you if he should.
I asked if he should live by a moral code and encourage others to do so.

Also, by Christian morality, I did not mean things like the Crusades etc.
I thought that would be fairly obvious to you....were you trying to deflect the questions?

And finally,....

Maharaji is moral, according to you.

Can we quote you on that one?

And can we discuss that one?

Thanks for responding,
I'm feeling better already.

La-ex
(got to go to the hall for a quick fire extinguisher service meeting...
They got a brand new one this week and I can't wait to get some of that synchronized training...)

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 15:21:26 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: I am not speaking to please anyone's taste
Message:
Since you have so little respect for what I have said, I see no point in continuing this conversation. You, my dear, are the one that rejected me.

I will say one other thing before I go, and that is that I do not feel I have all the answers to 'explain' Maharaji's past or present, nor can I explain my own. The constant learning and discovery is to me much of what life is all about. And I will say this: I have not been party or witness to many of the disparaging stories told here about Maharaji and I wouldn't want to comment on stories where I don't (1) know the person who is making the claim, (2) know what in his or her version of the incident is exaggerated or what may be left out, or (3) know the story in context of other possible extenuating circumstances.

And I will say this also, that yes, there are times I have been very upset with Maharaji and things he has said and choices he has made. Absolutely. However, there is not one person I have ever met in my entire life that has been an important figure in my life that I could not say the same thing.

You see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear. That's one of the marvelous -- and dangerous -- things about life in the universe. I want to see and hear what inspires me most, satisfies me most deeply. For my realization of this, I have only Maharaji to thank. That is my pivot point always -- even when I am in disagreement with him or upset with him. I am upset about a lot of the same things that people on this website are upset about. Yes, I am! But I do not choose to advertise those problems here -- rather, I have written to Maharaji each time I have had something to say. I don't know if my mail is even getting through to him, and that is yet another source of frustration. And it's one reason I confess I am truly glad you all have this website.

You should have some small compassion for me here. I have no group of allies cheering 'my side' as you do here or as does 'Elan Vital just following orders' people. People on this website are disgusted by me and no doubt most 'obedient style' premies are disgusted by me also. Where I am at, it is lonely.

Yet still Maharaji's words and Knowledge are my water, my bread, the most important things in my life. Though I have a troubled mind and very lonely social life, there is great beauty and hope in my heart, and yes, still I thank Maharaji every day for what he has done for me and continues to do for me and for everyone --everyone who wants it, that is.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:18:43 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: C'mon Christian, we can still be buddies, OK?
Message:
Christian-

I didn't mean to reject you.
I'm not sure where you would have interpreted that from.
However, if you took it that way, I sincerely didn't mean to put you off.

Here's the issue, which I think we were getting to, and which is kind of maddening (and frightening) to me, when I see premies getting to a point of real and honest dialogue, and then they suddenly back off.

I'm not talking about the scandalous stuff talked about on EPO...we can take that off the table,OK?

It's the entirely provable stuff that maharaji himself has said over and over again to thousands of people all over the world....he says one thing, gets people to dedicate their lives to him and give everything to him, then pulls a 180, and says he's just a teacher of some sort.

The greatest incarnation of God in the history of the planet, who will rule the entire planet as king...
A few years later, he is some sort of undefined 'master' with 4 techniques on a dvd.
And somehow he has gotten outrageously rich off of all of it, even though he never has had a job that pays a wage or salary.

It's one thing to give a few bucks and a little time to a meditation teacher/speaker....it's entirely another to give your entire life to a man who swears that he is the messiah, and the greatest one in the entire history of planet Earth, at that!

(THIS is the stuff I'm talking about. We all know it's entirely provable, yet he never addresses it. The last time I saw him on a video he said that 'the people who say there are issues to discuss, are always the unhappy ones'. Yes, they are upset, because he has no accountability and never answers his critics. That's also one of the main reason why propagation is stalled at zero in the west.)

This is his stuff, not ours, to explain.
And he does nothing about it, although he easily could.

Do you see what I'm talking about?
How could I ever invite anyone into this, knowing how he has changed his story so many times?
I feel morally bound to tell them the truth, so that they would know what this man thinks about himself before they consider getting into it.
And how he constantly changes the rules.

Do you agree that there are many things that could be understood and healed if maharaji would address this stuff?

If he did, it would help HIM and his family, as well as ex-premies and premies alike.

Sincerely,
La-ex

PS: Two things you stated that made me chuckle a bit...

1-You said if you were around maharaji and he did some 'funny' stuff, you would let him know about it.

(If you did, I'm sure you would be sent packing after the first 'insubordination'. That's if you really had the courage to do it.)

2-You stated that maharjai has helped many more people than he has hurt.
Also, that if he was only in it for the money, he would have left long ago.

(I would question the first one. In the US, about 5-10% of the people who have taken knowledge remain. I would say that the other 90-95% have said 'thanks, but no thanks'. It's a small minority that still believe he has anything to offer.)

(About the money and leaving. He left the ashramers high and dry with no explanation, after making a lifetime pact with them. He can quit any time he wants to (he has a few times, only to return after the tantrum was over). When he quits, would you folow the next 'master', and who would you like it to be (or find relatable)....Daya, Hansi, Charanand, Wadi, Glenn, Dave Smith,Padarthanand ?
Seriously, would you follow any of them, or any one else he deemed the successor?
(You can use your imagination here.)

Sincerely...

LA

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 04:44:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: God, you're NOT joking, are you?
Message:
How do you feel about Maharaji's hit and run incident?
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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 17:53:30 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: God, you're NOT joking, are you?
Message:
First, I don't know if that really happened. I can only speak hypothetically. If it did happen I'm sure it was an accident and I don't have any problem with how it was dealt with, especially since the person's family was also given money. Once dead, there is nothing that can be done. And *if* Maharaji did run into him, my guess is that it was at least equally the 'fault' of the cyclist and I am certain Maharaji would never have caused such an accident intentionally. And I don't see this as a legal issue, but as a very unfortunate accident. I'm sure that if this really did happen that Maharaji felt very badly about it indeed.
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 05:37:38 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Whether it was an accident is NOT the point
Message:
As to whether the accident happened you have to either call eye-witness Michael Dettmers a liar or accept that Maharaji switched drivers and in so doing shirked his legal responsibilies; that he effectively lied to the police in denying his involvement. He also got his mahatma's houseboy to take the rap. (No small abuse of power here..?)

Have you read all of Michael Dettmer's revelations? To me, they don't read like the thoughts of a bitter and twisted man - more somebody profoundly disillusioned by all that he has seen - and they merely confirm information reported from many other sources.

(And would MD risk his own professional reputation to libel a man who could afford the finest legal counsel in the States. What has he to gain?)

Paying off a victim's family after feeling the scene and getting someone else to take the rap is NOT a moral way to deal with having killed a man, even accidently, under any legal system. Imagine this happening in the US and the victim were, say, your brother. Would out-of-court compensation satisfy you in lieu of justice?

(What's cash to Maharaji anyway? He's rolling in it.) Whether or not it was an accident is entirely bedide the point. It is about honesty and integrity and the transparent fact that Maharaji could treat a man's death in which he was intimately involved as some kind of minor irritation too trivial to warrant his hanging around to face police questions.

Anyway, isn't it the police and maybe the court's job to determine whether or not the killing was an accident? Whether or not the Superior Power in Person was guilty of inferior driving...

For all you know 'causing death by reckless driving' might have been the verdict - if it had ever come to court. At the very least M appears guilty of perverting the course of justice, wouldn't you say?

These are ugly facts, Christian, and I am surprised you can feel comfortable about them. You say you have never witnessed immoral behaviour on the Master's part and thus give him the benefit of the doubt. Assume none of this stuff happened - or at least put a positive spin on eveything. Since you will probably never get the privilege of checking the man out at close quarters (unless you are x-rated) you might instead have to ask yourself whose testimony you would trust before deciding there WAS something rotten in the state of Denmark.

How about the balance of probabilities?

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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 17:45:59 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Hit and run? With a UFO?
Message:
It must have been an ET that he ran over.
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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 01:50:20 (GMT)
From: Sri Ramakishka
Email: None
To: All
Subject: And when yer finished w/that, take your SAT's. . .
Message:
Spiritual Aptitude Test of course:

J-SAT-CA

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:23:42 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: So...
Message:
...as to questions 11 and 12 how does anybody in premi world explains toe kissing and arti if Rawat is NOT God incarnate?

He is a sexual predator, addict, etc, etc, well put Nigel. This guy seduces and abuses people and while under the hypnotic spell we don't notice the awfull emotional, spiritual, even physical abuse.

Mercedes (working on reality more and more)

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 18:05:51 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: So...
Message:
I have no problem with toe kissing or Arti singing and I do still feel the same as I did in '72 that Guru -- or Satguru -- reveals God within. If that isn't the greatest thing ever, I can't imagine what is. People could call Maharaji 'God' and it would bother me -- though if I were to put in my two cents I would say that's not quite the way I look at it, but he certainly has a supernatural Grace -- and is stupendously and thankfully and absolutely *human* at the same time -- with human frailties, feelings and all the gamut.

I also have no problem with him drinking a lot (if that's what he does) or taking drugs (if that's what he does) or having extramarital sex (if that's what he does) and I would have to be there, in the situation, to have and express any personal problems with it. I assure you that if I were a 'PAM' that I would tell him so anytime I felt upset with him -- just as I would with any other friend. This is not to say that it would not be an incredibly intense and perhaps painful experience for me. But it is all hearsay and hypothetical. I tell Maharaji what I really think now, and if I were around him personally I would then too. Maybe he would kick me out on my rear; then again, maybe he wouldn't.

Meanwhile, he is doing a BANGUP job, and AWESOME job of helping me and thousands (tens of thousands? hundreds of thousands?) of people experience Love, Wisdom, Knowledge and Grace in our personal lives. You can tell me someone with that ability is a no-good something-or-other, but I cannot believe it. It goes against everything I have experienced to be true.

Yes, things sound maddeningly paradoxical. I somehow don't think things will in this world ever be any other way -- even around and personally near the Guru.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:29:11 (GMT)
From: Dickie Pwickie
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Premies are way beyond a questionnaire
Message:
God you must really be such a looser to waste your time with such Judas-like insinuations. Don't you recall anything from your precious time with the Perfectly Autodidactic Speaker? There are no questions when you have the one true answer of all answers. But, if it's answers you want, go to ElanVital.org and all will be revealed. Glen Whitaker has answered all FAQ there, once and for all.

Why should I waste my breath talking with you any way? It's all about my personal experience and not at all about your doubt-maker questions. Sure, the mind can have duality, black and white, trips and traps but THAT experience that my master has shown me (and you) can only be known within inside my / your heart. So as Lord Krishna said to Arjuna 'you are dead anyway' so your questions mean absolutely nothing. It would be like flying a Gulfstream GV and thinking you were on a luxury yacht - not the same thing at all except they both have antiseptic soap on board.

Synchronistically yours,

Dickie Pwickie

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:42:40 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Dickie Pwickie
Subject: Premies are way beyond a questionnaire
Message:

Dear Dickie Pwickie,

apparently premies are also beyond honestly answering the sincere questions of aspirants. I know this from first hand experiences. Everytime I asked a premie about the cult's past, I got some predetermined cover up response. This is a page taken from every other cult on the planet.

If you tell aspirants the hole ball of wax from the start, they would run like hell. The only way you can gain new recruits is through calculated systematic indoctrination leading to appreciation (empty your pockets.) So your heavenly visitor can have bigger and better.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:09:20 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Premies are way beyond a questionnaire
Message:
David:

I'm guessing Dickie Pwickie isn't what he appears to be.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 23:07:07 (GMT)
From: David
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Premies are way beyond a questionnaire
Message:
I guess Dickie is into the hit and put the blinders maneuver. It is a good practice for remaining a cult slave.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 23:25:49 (GMT)
From: Luke Pewk
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Thank you Dickie for telling these ex-premies
Message:
the facts. They are such a bunch of whiny loosers and don't realize what they are missing doing co-ordinated and synchronized service for You Kow Who - participating in our blissful ''evolution'' which these loosers call ''revisionism.''

Note from PatC: Hey, David, Dickie and Luke are satirical characterizations of PWKs.

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:59:15 (GMT)
From: Dickie Pwickie
Email: None
To: Luke Pewk
Subject: Speak for yourself Luke
Message:
Personally, I've been enjoying this Dickie Pwickie thing so much I've re-activated my Smart Card and can't wait for the next darshan line. Smackin' my darshan starved lips just to think of it. Pretty enigmatic of the Perfect Speaker in Person - now he's a teacher - now he's a master - now he's Lord Krishna - now he's a bar fly. Why should he live up to our puny expectations of what he should be? He's autodidacticly and totally himself whatever he does. Musician, inventor, poet, pilot, slo-mo video star and so much more. The real question should be 'who will he be next?' And how much will it cost me?
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 13:43:47 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Sadism A Part Of Knowledge?
Message:
Two things are clear to me right now. One, life is incredible. Two, the pain is sometimes so incredible you would think God is a sadist. In fairness, the pleasure of life can be very outstanding as well.

In my seven months on this forum, many people have expressed feelings and told stories about slave labour and deprivation in the ashram, as well as hypocrisy coming from m. For some reason though, the mood seems to be better lately.

I only pray that the roller coaster of life smooths itself out very soon. I wish I could be more optimistic but I have been experiencing incredible loneliness the last day. One can only hope in such moments.

Steve

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 19:42:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Loneliness or aloneness?
Message:
there's a big difference.

Here are some ideas that you might find interesting:

'Delight in being alone. Enjoy being alone as much as feasible, as much as practical. Delight in solitude.

Sitting silently, doing nothing,
The spring comes and the grass grows by itself.

If you can sit silently doing nothing, the spring is not far away, the spring is bound to come. It always comes in silence. It always comes when
you know how to delight in your aloneness because only then are you independent. If you delight in others' company you are dependent. If you
feel lonely when you are alone you don't know aloneness yet.
Loneliness and aloneness are two different things, notwithstanding what the dictionaries say. In dictionaries they are synonymous, but in
existence they are totally different. Loneliness is negative. It means you are dependent, you are hankering for the other, you are suffering. Your
being alone is not a joy, it is a misery. You want to be occupied.

The zookeeper guided the visitors to the next cage. 'Now here, ladies and gentlemen, we have the laughing hyena. Now, the laughing hyena has
sex on only one night in the year.'
'Well, what has he got to laugh about then?' asked a young lad in the group.
'Aha! Well, tonight's the night!'

People are happy with others, but that happiness is dependent; it can be taken away. It WILL be taken away, it is bound to disappear. It can't
be permanent, it is momentary.

Raleigh Rosenblum, the romantic young bachelor of Palm Beach who was also a big spender, telephoned the girl he had just met the night before.
She was not only gorgeous but had also proved to be a real swinger. He wanted another date. To his surprise, however, she turned him down.
'How come you are refusing to go out with me tonight?' he demanded. 'Only yesterday you said there was something about me you adored.'
'There was, baby,' she crooned in a husky voice, 'but you spent it.'

All happiness that is dependent on others is bound to disappear sooner or later. It is temporary, it is momentary, it is illusory. Only that joy is
yours which wells up within your own being. Hence Buddha says: DELIGHT IN MEDITATION, delight IN SOLITUDE.
Aloneness is the joy of being just yourself. It is being joyous with yourself, it is enjoying your own company. There are very few people who
enjoy their own company. And it is a very strange world: nobody enjoys his company and everybody wants others to enjoy his company! If they
don't enjoy he feels insulted -- and alone he feels disgusted with himself. In fact, if YOU cannot enjoy your own company, who else is going to
enjoy it?
Aloneness, solitude is positive. It is overflowing joy for no reason. It is our very nature to be joyous; hence there is no need to depend on
anybody else. There is no other motive in it, it is simply there. Just as the water flows downwards, your being rises upwards. Just give it a
chance -- give it solitude. And remember again, solitude is not solitariness, just as aloneness is not loneliness'.

.
.
.

If need be, I can tell you who said those words. Then again, it might not matter who said them.

best,

Chris

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:52:48 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: cq
Subject: Great Post Chris, But...
Message:
Everything you've said sounds great and true, but there's another factor - when a person has had severe mental illness such as I have, they need people. Badly.

I believe this changes the equation completely.

Steve

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 19:36:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: needing people - same as needing to love people?
Message:
mental illness shouldn't be seen as a stigma. We ALL have varying degrees of mental health.

If saying that is a problem for some people, then suppose I say it this way: 'we all have varying degrees of emotional health', or 'we all have varying degrees of physical health'.

Emotions ... mind ... body ... all parts of ourselves, but not our totality. Any one part can function healthily, but if one part is out of kilter - does it mean that all parts are out of kilter?

Life can throw some pretty hard lessons at all of us, and the more we have to deal with those lessons - well, aren't we healthier for having learnt to deal with them?

OK, so while we're in the process of dealing with them, it might seem that we've got problems. Problems? You can look at it that way. You can also look at it as an opportunity to come to terms with the various parts of what make you 'yourself'.

Do you feel like you need love from people? Could it be that love is something you're unwilling to give to others - or is it something that you've forgotten to give to yourself?

Do you feel unable to love others? If so, then why blame them when they don't feel to share love with you?

There's two sides of the same coin here.

Remember how it felt to give love to someone? Of course you can.

Both needing and giving love are parts of yourself. Acceptance of your need for, and acceptance of you ability to love is the issue here.

Whether someone has diagnosed you as being mentally 'ill' has absolutely NOTHING to do with it.

The journey is yours to take. And if you use the stigma as a crutch ... well, guess what needs to be said to you, bruvver -

(take up your bed and walk? ...)

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 09:25:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: steve listen to me closely:
Message:
you told us when you first came on the forum that you have a life history of mental illness. I do too. I've done a hell of a lot of self educating over the decades about it.
It sounds like you have the beginnings of a cycle of manic depression.that's an emotional condition. emotions are centered in the brain in the limbic system, the midbrain, the mammalian part of our brain that experiences things like protecting our young, bonding with a mate, declaring territory, and all the things we know as feeling and emotion. reptiles don't have it, all mammals do have it, and humans have it, along with a third layer of rational abstracting forebrain.
the brain communicates by neuro transmitters. we experience it subjectively but it can be induced deliberately, chemically.
you know this.
It sounds like you may be sliding into chemical imbalance. It happens. No biggie--unless you fail to remedy it.

don't let the subjective feelings rule you. use your forebrain and propel yourself to get to your doctor or a therapist. do not let the feelings dictate what you do. overrule them with your education and get to a place that can adjust your chemistry.

i have never had mania but I've battled depression for decades. I know what you're feeling. if you have to, force yourself to pay attention to something outside yourself that needs you. i 'cared' my way out of suicidal obsession by tending broken houseplants I found, and later on, white mice. more recently I had cats--three generations, all in one house. I had 16 last summer. I have 6 right now.

When i used to get to drowning in my moaning and yearning and festering on how i didnt have somebody, I used to kick myself in the ass and get my coat and keys and go alley walking and dumpster diving, to get my mind off of me,me,me. whether i found anything or not, i always came home different.

take action. don't sit and wallow in it.

and instead of obsessing on 'getting' someone 'for' yourself, pick some activity or pursuit that you like, that others do, too, and go where they do that. make the activity the reason for going, not the people you want to meet. that way whoever you do encounter there will already have an interest in common with you.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 16:35:52 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: janet
Subject: Another Great Post, But...
Message:
We are all interdependent. I don't buy the Hindu bullshit that we need not be affected by what's going on around us. That would make one a vegetable in my opinion. Even vegetables are affected by what's going on in the air.

Too much bullshit in the world for me.

Steve

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 22:25:46 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: what about YOUR world?
Message:
Do you have one? I have felt like you before, looking around and feeling I didn't fit, I didn't like what moved the world.

How determined are you to learn to live in a better way is essential. Are you determined to enjoy being alive or not? Do you want to beat the blues or not?

To be alive is easy, to know how to live is not. I had to learn or re-learned how to be good to myself and how to make sense of being alive. There I was complaining on how crazy the world was, totally underlooking the fact taht I wasn't putting enough attention to my world. By my world I mean learning to find enjoymen,t forgetting the brainwashing received saying the world is bad. The world is what it's and you wont change it. You can only change yourself. What is it that you are not doing?

Did you get my email??

SB, who today likes being alive and if I did it you can do it too. I thought I was a lost case.

PS:There is so much beauty to see, so much to experience simply because we have a body. Common. Cheer up!!

Write to me, would you?

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 15:09:13 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: sb
Subject: You've Got Mail, Sweetheart
Message:
what about YOUR world?

My world is getting better, thank you.

I sent you mail.

Stevie

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 21:23:32 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Acquiring fatty deposits
Message:
Steve, risking your stern silence again, I am replying to your post.

My experience suggests to me that we are interdependent on a level that most people successfully filter through an individual sense of self, through an exercise of will.

I am fortunate in that though I have always been aware of that interdependence, (as I suspect most people are, though sometimes I wonder!), my naturally healthy mental state has enough 'fatty deposits' on my nervous system to keep me completely comfortable.

I have experienced abrading them away through the practise of being a premie, eventually becoming psychotic, and I have experienced recovery, my fatty deposits are back (pity about the body fat deposits I also picked up in the process!, ah well).

This indicates to me that it is possible to improve one's comfort levels. All the best, Lesley

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 14:58:49 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Lesley
Subject: Acquiring fatty deposits
Message:
Steve, risking your stern silence again, I am replying to your post.

If this a risk to you, you probably don't have any big problems.

I feel like posting a few links.

10948.
Swift may make you PREM
But, when you're irregular,
SPAM will make you swift.

--Barrie Collins, bcollins@comox.island.net

From:

I like this site.

The home page.

An interesting book.

An interesting page.

Thus when I was a kid, we had to be very careful of eating
wieners or canned processed meats like Prem or Spam.

From:

Another fun page.

And of course,

The classic.

Steve

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:11:12 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: are you a masochist? LOL
Message:
I just sent you mail.

Luv,

sb

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 13:48:12 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I hear you
Message:
Never knew you could be lonely and busy at the same time.
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:27:53 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Steve
Subject: the void..
Message:
...left by all the attention and energy given to the urug is huge and feelings of loneliness are normal, just let them be. I feel the grieving process takes a long time and also that we become stronger and wiser by going through it.

Take care,
Mercedes

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 03:06:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Of Faith Based/Tax Exempt 'Churches'
Message:
The fact that Elan Vital can get away with claiming it's a 'church' for tax purposes and then not claim to be a religion or even have members on its website points up something really weird about this country.

According to what I read in the NYT (so it HAS to be true), all together America boasts 1,350 'sects and denominations,' a likely world record, even compared to the religiously promiscuous Roman Empire in the time of Gladiator.

We may be the most religious of the industrialized nations--in terms of the proportion of the population that claims to believe in Unseen Beings and gathers regularly to commune with them--but I think we are also the most religiously disorganized, diverse and confused. There is simply no definition of 'religion.'

I raised this with a lawyer we specializes in representing non-profits, including churches and was distressed to learn how easy it is to get church tax-exempt status. He said, basically, that, to qualify as a religion for tax exemptions, a group has to be (a) incorporated, and (b) claim a membership larger than a single nuclear family.

It helps, too, he said, pointing to the tax code, if the group boasts accessories like 'sacrament, ritual [and] liturgy,' and meets regularly for some purpose other than to discuss its progress toward achieving tax-exempt status.

That's about it. There is nothing about size, or the content of those sacraments or rituals. Clearly, anyone with imagination and legal counsel can start his or her religion in the USA. I guess this also means they can apply for funds from the new Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives of the Bush administration as soon as it opens for business.

But, despite the depressingly low hurdles to religion status, there are two things about Elan Vital that are a problem here, according to this lawyer.

First, Elan Vital claims to have NO members. Zero, nada, none. That violates the first requirement of a 'religion' under the IRS code, according to this guy.

Second, Elan Vital seems to state openly that it ISN'T a church or a religion. That would seem to be a big problem, wouldn't it? I mean, the IRS will give the exemption to practically anything that claims to have some sort of belief, but they at least are supposed to SAY they are a church or religion and have beliefs, right? How does Elan Vital get away with this? Is anybody paying attention?

I have to say, though, the athiest in me thinks it's very funny that the Christian Right isn't buying into Bush's faith-based proposal. I read an article in which Pat Robertson was bitching about the possibility of fed money going to the wrong sort of faith-based organization, like the Hare Krishnas, the Moonies, or Scientology. Some of these, Robertson alleged, use 'brainwashing techniques' and imagine that their leader is the messiah. There are, of course frightful errors, unless your religion happens to be Christianity.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 17:07:48 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Of Faith Based/Tax Exempt 'Churches'
Message:
My understanding is that Elan Vital is most definitely not structured, legally or formally or on any tax documents, as a church in the U.S. In other countries? Possibly. But then you have different tax codes in other countries as well as other regulations.
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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:55:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Also forgot to say
Message:
Thanks for the help, but because of your devotion to M, I must be honest and say that I probably won't trust anything you say. Sorry, but that's just the way it is. Nothing against you as a person. But your loyalties seem to be elsewhere.

--f

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:53:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: See G's post below. The tax codes don't lie
Message:
Although they don't appear to be a church, and they don't say they're a church, G's reading of the tax codes from a recent IRS database (updated April 2001) would point otherwise.

Also, Joe posts below that the AG's office said they were a church. Do you actually know anything about their tax documents?

--f

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 19:29:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: If they are noncooperative it may cost them
Message:
Joe:

I have to do some more reading, but this 1998 stuff I initially found levies a $10 per day fine for failure to comply, up to $5K, unless failure is for reasonable cause. Willful noncompliance carries a $1k penalty.

So let's look up the law and they'll have to comply with it. Tough noogies. At least they won't be able to get any of that faith-based money if that ever (wretch) comes about.

--f
PS My husband says GWB is not Shrub. He's more like a weed. Well he's from Texas. We need Roundup(tm). Yee haw!

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:17:12 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: 5K?That's five diners at Dayas eatin pasta+wine.nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 19:24:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Just found out that EV may not be a church
Message:
Joe:

From the IRS' website:

Organization Name: Elan Vital Inc. City: Malibu, CA Code: None - A public charity with a 50% deductibility limitation.

Public charities by definition cannot be churches.

I believe everything but a private foundation is under disclosure requirements for annual returns and applications for tax-exempt status. However, it may require that someone actually go to their office with a copy service.

I'll do some more research on this, but your friend may know off the top of his head.

peace and love, f

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 20:48:00 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Strange,,,, but interesting. What is going on?
Message:
If Elan Vital really IS a public charity, they they have to file tax returns, which are available to the public, and publish figures on how much they collect in donations and how they spend it.

In California, the Registry of Charitable Trusts, right there in your fair city, is supposed to get reports from all public charities. But, the last time I spoke to them, they said that Elan Vital, being a church, didn't need to report it.

Also, there is a search engine someplace (I think G and some others know about it, but I don't recall it at the moment), that lists all charities and shows their financials, BUT, that website said Elan Vital didn't report because it was a CHURCH!!!

What the hell is going on?

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 22:35:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Strange,,,, but interesting. Update.
Message:
Joe:

Very strange. Listed with CA Secretary of State as corporation. Listed with IRS as a Public Charity, and not listed with the AG's office as a charity. I've put in a call to the AG's office to find out why they haven't. I can't believe they claim they get in less than the amount needed to register (I believe that's $25K, but I may be wrong).

Below is from the AG's website, as they have scanned in their old guide to charities written in the late 80s, with a 1998 update:

'Public Charity' or 'Private Foundation'?
Organizations that qualify for exemption under IRC section 501(c)(3) will be classified by the IRS as either a public charity or a private foundation. Most organizations (with a few exptions,such as churches) are presumed to be private foundations unless they receive a determination from the IRS that they are a 'public charity'. In general,an organization will be classified as a public charity if it receives a certain percentage of its total support from government sources, other public charities or a broad base of individual donors. An organization also may avoid being classified as a private foundation if it maintains a support relationship with one or more public charities or governmental entities; this relationship may be either financial or programmatic.
Classification as a private foundation carries with it several disadvantages,including a 2 percent excise tax on the orgnization's net investment income, certain limitations on the deductibility of charitable contributions by individual donors, a wide range of operational requirements and restrictions and more burdensome reporting requirements.

FROM 1998 UPDATE

Chapter 3: Application for Tax Exempt Status
(New) Federal tax laws effective in 1998 require not only that
charitable organizations make available for public review at their principal office copies of their Form 990, 990 EZ or 990 PF for the three most recent taxable years, but that charities also provide copies of these Form 990 returns to any person who sends the charity a written request. The charity may charge reasonable copying fees and actual postage costs for mailing the Form 990.
Individuals who have been denied access or copies of Form 990 by a charitable organization may complain to:

IRS Exempt Organizations Customer Service 300 North Los Angeles Street, MS7043 Los Angeles CA 90012
Telephone No.: (213) 894-2330

peace, f (aka 'the badger')

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 21:22:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Strange,,,, but interesting. What is going on?
Message:
I hope they are screwing up somewhere. We'll have to keep digging as time permits.

I got the information on EV right from the IRS' search engine.

IRS charities search

A search of the AG's site recently revealed no EV. So if they are telling the AG they are a church, something is amiss here. Getting the filings from them would straighten it out. I would imagine a public charity is a charitable trust, but what do I know?

--f

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 04:29:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: EV is listed as a church in a downloadable file.
Message:
Francesca,

A while ago I downloaded a huge file from the IRS web site and found Elan Vital in the file. There is a code that shows it is registered with the IRS as a church, a charitable organization, and a corporation.

See http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/plain/tax_stats/soi/ex_imf.html

I extracted the information below from file eo_ca.exe.

G

Employer Identification Number (EIN): 237174539 (assigned by IRS to id an account)

Primary Name of Organization: ELAN VITAL INC

In Care of Name: blank
(party (officer, director, etc.) to whose attention any correspondence should be directed)

Street Address: PO BOX 6130
City: MALIBU
State: CA
Zip Code: 90264-6130

Group Exemption Number: 0000
(internal # assigned to central/parent orgs holding group determination letters)

Affiliation Code: 3 (Independent)

Subsection Code: 03
Classification Code(s): 1___ (Charitable Organization)

Ruling Date: 197112

Deductibility Code: 1 (Contributions are deductible)
Foundation Code: 10 (Church)

Activity Codes: 059 001 000 (Other school related activities; Church, synagogue, etc)

Organization Code: 1 (Corporation)

District of Jurisdiction: 95 (IRS District Office)

Advance Ruling Expiration Date: 000000

Tax Period: ______

Asset Code: 0
Income Code: 0

Filing Requirement Code: 060 (Not required to file (church); No 990PF return)

Blanks: ___

Accounting Period: 12 (accounting period ending date (MM))

Asset Amount: blank
Income Amount: blank
National Taxonomy of Exempt Entities (NTEE) Code: blank
Sort Name (Secondary Name Line): blank

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 23:08:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: G
Subject: G and Joe -- just found out that church is one ...
Message:
form of public charity. Not the only form, but one of them. So it is quite conceivable that they could be a church. Which G probably already knows because he understands the info he posted. If they are a church they don't have to file with the AG. It is interesting to also note that only 50% of a contribution to EV is tax-deductible. I wonder if they are telling that to folks.

Also interesting to note is that one of the IRS publications I was reading said that 'Although a church, its integrated auxiliaries, or a convention or association of churches is not required to file Form 1023 to be exempt from federal income fax or to receive tax deductive contributions, the organization may find it advantageous to obtain recognition of exemption.' Since the information G has said they are not required to file, perhaps they haven't. I'm sure they want the bare minimum of scrutiny. And it says no 990PF return.

All public exemption applications and annual returns are open to public inspection. To get copies, you usually have to pay, but no more than $1 for first page, $.15 for each additional, plus reasonable postage. But from the information G has, it looks like they've done nothing.

But unless I'm reading this wrong, it says, declare yourself a church, and you can do bugger-all. And bugger-all they do! Joe, perhaps you could ask your friend a few more questions about churches, and why the 50 %? Curioser and curioser.

--f

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 18:01:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: notinherent@yahoo.com
To: G
Subject: G - can you send me an e-mail?
Message:
I've downloaded the database, but you obviously have experience with those that I lack. I couldn't find anything that interprets all those codes like you did, i.e. some sort of guide or breakdown. Possibly you opened it in another program that displays .lst files better than Word does, but possibly you just know what you're doing.

If there is a discrepancy in IRS databases == whichever of the two of us is better at explaining it should contact the IRS and see whassup. Please check the one I gave the link to, as well.

This has been going on for years, so no hurry getting to the bottom of it, I suppose.

Cheers and best wishes, f

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 05:34:11 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Don't quite follow
Message:
but I'll download it myself. The info looks confusing and I'm not sure whether those are general guides to the codes they could have, or whether that is their particular code.

In any event, at the other IRS URL They are listed as no code:
Organization Name: Elan Vital Inc.
City: Malibu, CA
Code: None - A public charity with a 50% deductibility limitation.

So either the IRS has two conflicting sets of information in two different databases, or I don't know what!!

I only wish EV was 'no code.' Unfortunately, it's alive and well. Let's keep working on this and see what we can find out. One of us may need to contact the IRS if we have two sets of info from their website that don't match.

I'll get back to you on this.

best wishes, f

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 01:04:36 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Good Work Francesca....
Message:
Are they trying to have it both ways? Being a church when they want to be and a public charity when they want to be? Right, the AG should have the list if they are a charity, which they apparently said they were to the IRS. But to the state, they are a church. Is that right? Something is really fishy.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 23:20:12 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: WB . Stores Limited was the Company that
Message:
changed it's name in 1988 to Elan Vital (UK).

I mentioned this in a thread below .

This is pure speculation on my part as I have only an informed layman's knowledge of these things , which any professional could run rings round : but.... I think that DLM (UK) , with its charitable status & all was the shell .

I think that the donations made to DLM were then largely skimmed off by WB.Stores who quite legally (according to the letter of the law)charged DLM for 'services' .

They (WB) paid their taxes etc. but the profits went to Rawat . It was in effect his piggy bank .

EV(UK) is a registered charity , as of course was DLM , but why they should have chosen to merge the shell org with the real one beats me .

I don't think 'they' , whoever they are , are likely to have fucked up at all.

The richer Rawat has got , the more able he has been to pay people to bury the origins of his wealth .

I don't know anything about the situation in the U.S , all I'd say is meditate on 'Alice through the Looking Glass '.

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, May 11, 2001 at 05:43:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Thanks Bin, G, Joe -- curioser and curioser
Message:
Bin:

Makes your head spin, doesn't it? I think you'd need a forensic tax scientist to figure this one out. From the bits I've read here and there from you, G, Joe and others, it is one big mess, and that's how they like it.

Even though he has millions, he is such small potatoes no one really cares about it. Hope the old Krishna drag queen left his slip showing. If it's enough of a mess, they might have forgotten to close a trap door or something.

--f

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:33:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Does it really claim to have no members?
Message:
Wow, that is strange. Where do they claim to have no members? On the EV website?

What is obvious, as you pointed out, is that they are talking out of both sides of their mouth here. I don't know if their IRS filings or whatever they have to fill out to claim tax exempt church status is a public record (I would imagine it would have to be) and how to get a hold of it.

If they are operating legally, it might be very funny to have a page in the EPO white papers where we have the EV claims on its website, i.e. no members, no religion, and then contrast that with the scanned-in IRS papers, showing what they claim about their members and their religion.

Maybe your friend knows about these filings, exactly where that type of stuff has to be stated, and how to get them. 'Twoud be a gas to see them. If it costs a few bucks to get them, I'd be willing to contribute. If you find out anything, send me 'an e-.'

f

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 03:54:11 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Does it really claim to have no members?
Message:
Francesca:

If they are operating legally, it might be very funny to have a page in the EPO white papers where we have the EV claims on its website, i.e. no members, no religion, and then contrast that with the scanned-in IRS papers, showing what they claim about their members and their religion.

That sounds like the best suggestion I've heard on the forum in months. Kudos to you and Joe. Lets do it!

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 04:30:43 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: See Joe's post below
Message:
I hope that a recent ex will 'volunteer' -- after all, EV has no 'members' -- who has been donating regularly or quit within the near future will make a request for their application for tax exempt status.

The more money that person donated, over time, the more egregious it would be if EV refused to pony up the information. And if, as Joe says, it is required by law, that person could always send a copy of EV's refusal to the IRS.

Actually, several people could ask. Why not!

--f

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 04:59:39 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: See Joe's post below
Message:
Francesca:

I'd do it. As a research consultant for law firms I'm used to being stonewalled. Problem is, I've never contributed a dime to DLM or Elan Vital; and I'm fairly well known by name to EV, thanks to this forum.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:07:50 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: See Joe's post below
Message:
Dear Scott:

If we found someone whose name was well known to EV, but had donated a lot, it would be really a hoot! So much more fun. *If* they are required by law to pony something up, they'd be hard pressed to refuse--no matter who asks for it.

As you can see from my posts, I was even surprised to find I'd given $36 to the American Sponsorship Program in 1994. I thought I'd stopped donating years before that, but I was a sucker for the planes. Spread K, even though I wasn't practicing it.

--f

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:48:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yes
Message:
Here's what Elan Vital says on its website as one of the straw-man reasons it isn't a cult:

Elan Vital certainly relies on voluntary donations for a part of its operational costs. However Elan Vital has no membership system and no mandatory donation system.

Elan Vital says it operates through volunteers, but the volunteers aren't 'members.'

Regarding the filing for the Church exemption under the IRS Code, according to the Code, Elan Vital has to make available, at its offices or else provide copies to those who request it by mail, their application for tax-exempt status. Over the years, several people on the forum have talked about making a formal request to Elan Vital to allow access to the application. They are required to make it available by law, but I doubt up until now anyone has actually asked for it, and I doubt Elan Vital would be very cooperative in letting anyone see it. I think it would be enlightening to see Elan Vital making the case it's a church in order to avoid taxes, especially in light of the other stuff they say.

But, if someone would like to do some 'service' I think it would be interesting to see.

I think the best candidate to ask for it is a very recent ex-premie, somebody who have made donations to Elan Vital in the recent past.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:16:07 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I suspect it's a bit of a bind, legally
Message:
On the one hand, get the tax benefits, on the other make it harder for a disgruntled 'member' to sue EV. If you have legal status as a member of EV, then I would imagine there is some unavoidable, general, 'duty of care' legislation that comes into play.

Joe, Maharaji seems to have access to a lot of money, isn't money the secret religion of bureacracy? Not to tarnish the many people who man it's desks and often help other people where they can.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:56:18 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Food for thought -- monkey cookies
Message:
You said:

On the one hand, get the tax benefits, on the other make it harder for a disgruntled 'member' to sue EV. If you have legal status as a member of EV, then I would imagine there is some unavoidable, general, 'duty of care' legislation that comes into play.

Good observation. If Joe's friend is right about a requirement to have members in order to be eligible for the tax status, then perhaps it is precisely this 'duty of care' that is the price an organization must pay for receiving this status under the law. However, I don't know if that is the case, because I don't know the chutes and ladders of this area of law.

If so, it would be lovely that if by taking the deduction without fulfilling the legal responsibility, the monkey's been caught with his hand in the jar because he grabbed too many cookies. Pleasant thought, that.

--f

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 20:50:22 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Food for thought -- monkey cookies
Message:
Fantastic, loved the analogy, the mental image of our dear ex master trying to wriggle his paw free, complete with satin jacket and perplexed, frustrated scowl, is a killer, thanks, Lesley.
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 21:26:00 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: I wanna see the organ grinder
Message:
Perhaps that's Monica Lewis. Oh, I should stop now. No, no, I wanna hear the tune. Ah yes, that would be some synthesizer music from the stage at Amarscroo.

I think the monkey analogy ends with his dancing! Although those jerky movements, hmmmm ... maybe not. Little monkey with Krisna crown! :P

--f

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 18:40:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Agree with your approach
Message:
Also think it would be very important to save all letters wherein EV hem haws or refuses. You're right that most nonprofits have boilerplate language about their filings, the state AG's office, etc.

If they're tax exempt, and you've contributed, ESPECIALLY in the recent past, you have a right to know. I believe that, even if you're thinking about contributing, you have a right to know.

Hmmm, interesting. Hope someone's willing to do some 'service.'

Francesca

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 11:48:29 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: i'm peein myself with hilarity! Zero members?
Message:
that's a new one. zero members? yet you can't get into an event without a membership smart card, issued by and the property of, Elan Vital?
hee hee hee.
that's too funny.

oh man--what are we waiting for? i swear, its time to sue. or at least set an IRS audit on their asses.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 04:52:53 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Of Faith Based/Tax Exempt 'Churches'
Message:
Joe:

The ironies involved in the Guru cult are enough to spawn a book, aren't they? We could call it 'how to cultivate zealotry without leaving the closet,' or something. You've really captured the concept of sectarianism. The fact that we're religious isn't something that keeps me up at night though, primarily because it's connected to freedom and practice. What bothers me is that, on some but not all levels, we're such conformists. This isn't such a mystery, of course. I mean, if you don't have an axe to grind it's actually interesting, and fraught with opportunity. *The Crucible* was a social commentary, but it was also an insight into our identity as a people. I don't think Miller intended to be ironic. He was trying to be accurate and descriptive. By contrast the other side of the coin, ethnic identification, doesn't *need* to see the devil in every one of it's enemies, the way we do. It has natural opposition without that sort of inventiveness, where roles are well-defined, and ironically people can afford to be more sanguine about deviance, up to a point.... It can go wildly awry, of course. That's the down side.

I figure knowing this about the US offers some sort of edge. Well, more than that really, and less.


--Scott

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 03:45:37 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Really well thought out post Joe.
Message:
Religion: A word used to describe mass pillow biting (to ease the pain and desperation of the realization you are worm food)
Feeling: Simular to crapping your pants in grade school, only now you can never wash the yellow glop off your ass!
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:44:03 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great Post, Joe...
Message:
I believe that there are many non-profit organizations that do much good in our society, others take advantage.

Based on what you said in your post, I could start a religion today if I fit the requirements and become tax-exempt.

I believe this county needs to stop giving handouts to religions by allowing any of them to have tax-exemptions because they are a church. Especially the big ones, like the Roman Catholic Church (which loves to make people think they are poor)LOL; all Christian churches, Jewish relgions, etc. All religions. Period.

I'm sick of my tax dollars subsidizing religions--what about the separation of church and state?

Imagine how much good all those tax dollars could do for this country? Not likely to happen, but I think it should. In Vermont, many small towns still own the churches (stereotypical white and steepled) and the congregations lease them from the town.

So, for instance, my town recently installed a village sewer system and some places have been hooked up first. Because the town owns the church, as the lessor, they (we) pick up the expense of installing the needed sewage system and the church doesn't pay a cent.

What a racket!

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 18:27:26 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 2 pages article in a daily paper tomorrow
Message:
in France to advertise the Combat review release .......

I haven't read it yet, can't tell what it says, I'm sure EV's PR are anxious to read it. Me too !!

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 10:33:55 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Great article today on EV in newspaper
Message:
Here is the article's (2 pages 1/2 long) presentation:

09 Mai 2001 - SOCIETE

SECTE
Société. Droits de l'homme. Une secte qui programme très cher le bonheur, rien de bien nouveau...

Elan vital, une secte plus pernicieuse qu'il n'y paraît.

Le gourou Maharaji, ses avions, sa résidence à Malibu et Elan Vital, sa secte qui se fait discrète pour mieux endoctriner. Histoire moderne d'une aliénation. Enquête.

Bouygues, British Airways, Canon, Continent, Du Pont de Nemours, Kodak, EDF-GDF, Esso, France Loisirs, France Télécom, Gestetner, Hewlett Packard, IBM, Motorola, Pechiney, Philips, Rhône-Poulenc, Rorer, SANOFI, Shell, Siemens, Valeo, Winterthur Assurances, Xerox, Yves Saint-Laurent. La liste est si longue que bien d'autres devraient chercher à savoir s'ils n'ont pas mis, un jour, le pied de leurs salariés dans la méthode de motivation proposée par Management & Performance, qui présente ces clients sur son site Internet. Ce qui n'aurait, d'ailleurs, rien pour étonner, puisque ' grâce à la méthode, il devient possible d'évaluer clairement ses atouts et ses faiblesses, d'élaborer des stratégies de réussite, de percevoir autrui avec acuité, d'adopter des attitudes qui répondent aux exigences de l'environnement en adaptant son adaptabilité et sa flexibilité '. Dixit toujours le site Internet. Une promotion classique d'une entreprise de formation classique, répondant, visiblement, aux souhaits d'entreprises non moins libéralo-classiques.

Rien à voir, bien sûr, avec une secte. Sauf, peut-être, cette propension à se valoriser par l'intermédiaire de clients réels, potentiels ou simplement rencontrés voire contactés. Mais deux, au moins, des quatre propriétaires de Management & Performance, affirme Combat (1) dans son numéro spécial de mai consacré à l'aliénation sectaire, sont d'anciens administrateurs du mouvement Elan vital. ' Claude Artheix est encore chargé de la propagande en France, et Marc Levitte, président de la secte jusqu'en avril 1998, est devenu l'un des bras droits du gourou Maharaji. '

Maharaji ? Le ' dieu ' d'un groupement, signalé en 1995 dans le travail de la mission parlementaire qui s'est chargée d'inventorier les mouvements sectaires. En l'occurrence, la Mission de la lumière divine, devenue Elan vital. D'une transformation à l'autre, le Maître parfait est passé professeur de méditation, troquant ' les habits festifs de l'Inde croyante ' crédibles en 1970 pour le costard de ' n'importe quel cadre de banque ', seul respectable dans notre monde mondialisé.

Côté face, une charte affiche le respect de la personne humaine et les principes de la Déclaration universelle des droits de l'homme. Côté pile, c'est particulièrement fumeux, voire fumiste de haut vol. Le Figaro qualifiait, en 1978, Maharaji d'' amateur de voitures de sport et d'avions à réaction '. Les choses ne semblent pas s'être améliorées puisque ses tout nouveaux anciens adeptes parlent de son impossibilité à se déplacer sur les vols réguliers, pour raison de sécurité. Résultat : un Gulfstream V, 40 millions de dollars, remplaçant l'année dernière son prédécesseur sans doute arrivé en bout de course, un Gulfstream IV. Et tout à l'avenant : yacht, hélico, quelques résidences, bien sûr, comme celle de Malibu (Californie) avec héliport, ou centres de conférence, comme celui sur 526 hectares en Australie.

Financement ? La quête du bonheur. Et quelques trafics pas tous vraiment anodins, si l'on en croit les anciens adeptes que l'on retrouve sur le site www.ex-premie.org.

Quand Combat élargit son champ éditorial et se met à enquêter sur les formes d'aliénation sectaire, il entend, d'après sa rédaction, lancer un débat public sur ce sujet. Il a rencontré sur sa route, par hasard, Elan vital. Le résultat en est ce numéro de mai, dont nous vous offrons une présentation inédite. Parce que personne ne connaît vraiment Elan vital. Parce que des milliers de gens sont en recherche de repères, religieux ou pas, et sont donc des victimes potentielles. Parce que personne ne peut rester indifférent à la question.

Le Sénat vient de confirmer une proposition de loi pour améliorer la prévention et la répression contre les mouvements sectaires. La dissolution devient possible si un groupe, ou un mouvement, a fait l'objet de condamnations. La manipulation mentale devient délit d'abus de faiblesse (voir encadré).

Mais il reste à réfléchir aux attentes de ces milliers de victimes virtuelles et aux réponses, peut-être concrètes celles-là, à leur apporter. La quête du bonheur n'interroge pas que les Eglises établies, dans un monde où MacDo et Coca-Cola (intéressés, comme Reagan, par la Scientologie) sont devenus pourvoyeurs de bonheur, et où le père de l'actuel président américain recherchait le sien chez Moon. D'autant que les pressions américaines sur les parlementaires et le gouvernement français, au nom d'une liberté de ' religion ' qui ne reconnaît pas notre loi de 1905 sur la séparation de l'Eglise et de l'Etat, ne cesse d'interférer sur nos affaires intérieures et les prises de position européennes.

Enfin, notons que Marc Levitte, ancien président de Elan vital-France, est le frère de Jean-David Levitte, ancien conseiller de Jacques Chirac, aujourd'hui ambassadeur de France aux Nations unies. Il se félicitait, le 3 mai, de l'exclusion des USA de la commission des droits de l'homme de l'ONU pour ' arrogance ' et intervenait, le même jour, à la commission d'enquête sur les pillages du Congo, pilotée par la France. Cet éminent diplomate peut-il ignorer les activités de son frère ?

Emilie Rive

Plus an interview of 'Combat' editor in chief, and some excerpts from the Combat review !!

Main part of the article is online L'humanité - Sectes, without the urug's pictures and illustrations. The whole article should be available soon on EPO.

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 16:56:52 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel and all
Subject: first translation attempt: w apologies
Message:
May 9, 2001- SOCIETY
CULT
Society. The rights of man. A cult which teaches enjoyment at a very dear cost,(?nothing of good news? nothing new?)
Elan Vital, a cult more percinious than it appears. Guru Maharaji, his airplanes, his residence in Malibu, and Elan Vital, his cult which has made itself ever-so- discreet, the better to indoctrinate you.
A modern story of alienation.
An investigation.
Bouygues, British Airways, Canon, Continent, Du Pont de Nemours, Kodak, EDF-GDF, Esso, France Loisirs, France Télécom, Gestetner, Hewlett Packard, IBM, Motorola, Pechiney, Philips, Rhône-Poulenc, Rorer, SANOFI, Shell, Siemens, Valeo, Winterthur Assurances, Xerox, Yves Saint-Laurent.
The list is so long that plenty of others [ this is so awkward. i can think of a number of ways to put this] should seek to know if they are not put, one day, at the bottom of their salaries, in the method of motivation proposed by Management and Performance, who present these clients on their Internet site. Those who have not should not be surprised, since, thanks to the method, it becomes possible to evaluate clearly one's strengths and one's weaknesses, to elaborate strategies for {?}, to perceive {autrui==? trends?opportunity? changes?} with acuity, to adopt attitudes which respond to exigencies in the environment in adapting one's adaptability and one's flexibility.' So says the Internet site. A classic promotion by an enterprise in classic form, responding visibly to the hopes of enterprises no less classically liberal. No sign of a cult, certainly.
[nothing to see, to be sure, having to do with a cult] Still, it could be, this propensity to bill oneself as the intermediary between real clients, potential clients, or simply [?] to see contacted. But two, at least, of the four proprietors of Management & Peformance, says Combat (1), in their special May issue, dedicated to religious cults, are longtime administrators of the Elan Vital movement. 'Claude Artheix is still in charge of propagation in France, and Marc Levitte, president of the group since April 1998, have become one of the right- hand-men of Guru Maharaji.'
Maharaji ? The 'god' of a group, was flagged in 1995, during the work of a parliamentary task force that is charged with inventorying all cult movements.
When it occurred, the Divine Light Mission became Elan Vital. In the transformation from one to the other, the Perfect Master became a teacher of meditation, shedding the ' bright, festive outfits associated with Indian beliefs,' which were credible in 1970, for the somber tailored suit, indistinguishable from ' any other businessman', utterly respectable in our contemporary world.
On the face of it, a charter [?] respect for the human being and the principles of the universal Declaration of human rights. On the underside, it is particularly { }
In 1978, Le Figaro qualified Maharaj as a lover of sports cars and jet planes. Things don't seem to have changed much, since his most recent followers speak of the impossibility of his traveling by regular commercial flight, for reasons of security. The result: a Gulfstream V, costing 40 Million dollars, last year replacing its predecessor, which no doubt had come to the end of its use- a Gulfstream IV.
And all this to get to: a yacht, a helicopter, several residences, of course, like that in Malibu, California, with a heliport, or to conference centers, like the one on 528 hectares in Australia.
Financially? A taste for the good life.
and several [?]not entirely { }, if one believes the longtime members one can find on the website www. ex-premie.org When Combat expanded its editorial field and put itself into investigation of forms of cults, it intended, after its {} to spearhead a public debate on the subject. It encountered Elan Vital along the way, by chance.The result is in this May issue, from which we are offering you an unedited presentation. Because no one truly knows Elan Vital. Because thousands of people are searching for {}, religious or not, and are potential victims. Because no one can remain indifferent to the question.
The Senate is going to pass a law being proposed to make it easier to prevent and repress cults. Dissolving
them becomes possible if a group or a movement has been made the object of condemnations. The mental manipulation or brainwashing is to become defined as an abuse of the weak. (see [enclosed?]
But it remains to reflect upon the {} of the thousands of virtual victims and the {}, perhaps { permanent?} it brought to them. The quest for enjoyment does not ask {question?} the established churches, in a world where McDonald's and Coca-Cola (interested, like Reagan, in Scientology) have become the purveyors of enjoyment, and where the the father of the actual American President researches the {sign the moon is in? the ? of Rev. Moon?}
Out of all of the pressure brought by Americans upon the parliament and the French Government in the name of 'freedom of Religion', who don't know about our Law of 1905 on the separation of church and State, never ceasing to interfere in our internal affairs and the {} of the position of Europeans.
[ this is a mess, i know. ]
Finally, we note that Marc Levitte, longtime president of Elan Vital, France, is the brother of Jean-David Levitte, longstanding counsellor to Jacques Chirac, today ambassador of France to the United Nations. He facilitated, on the 3rd of May, the exclusion of the United States from the UN commission on Human Rights 'for arrogance' and interevened, the dame day, on the investigative commission on the thefts in the Congo, led by France. Can this eminent diplomat ignore the activities of his brother?
----------------
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 23:09:10 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Thank you, thank you, thank you...
Message:
...wow it is a mouthfull, great!!! Thank dear Janet you so very much for your effort.
Mercedes D. (I guess I am adding my last name's initial since I saw another Mercedes) I am not unigue anymore...
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 22:37:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: WOW janet, thanks, thanks!! ***** n/t
Message:
love
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:10:37 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Thanks JM, and janet for the translation. Merci nt
Message:
Mercy
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 17:30:45 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: first translation attempt: w apologies
Message:
Great start .... I'll help you tomorrow.

I'm quite busy today, and also into having the newspaper article online asap.

Looks like the TV review and Combat's wide release attracted a lot of attention from the media ......

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:35:39 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Great article today on EV in newspaper
Message:
JM could you or somebody translate the article, I am trying to read it, I speak Spanish so more or less I understand but I'd like to really be able to enjoy it.

Please!!!!!

Merci,
Mercedes

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 12:52:10 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: ?
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Good News Jean- Michael
Message:
The pendulum starts to swing. Well done in your substantial efforts..lets hope this gets copied on other continents too.
Best Wishes
Tim
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 15:35:23 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: DITTO -- well done, keep us posted! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:27:15 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: EV article on TV press review today !!
Message:
This is the mother of EV's PR disaster in France !!

The Combat review has been shown and quoted on the main TV channel (France 2) this morning. Millions of people have seen it during today's morning news !!!

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 00:43:53 (GMT)
From: anymous incognito
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV article on TV press review today !!
Message:
Why is it that you guys spend time attacking someone who has helped so many?....If you're going to attack ritch people why not attack Michael Jordan for instance?....With his money, (freely given to watch his basketball cult)he could change the ghetto....take his money, Ophras, Bill Cosby, etc. etc....I mean, 30 million dollers for his last year of throwing a piece of inflated rubber into a piece of metal....then again if we're interested in saving the ghetto, why not attack Tiger Woods?....None of these so-called 'stars' can say that they've changed lives to earn their money....m can...YOu know, I'll bet a few of the above mentioned have yauchts, helopads...million dollar estates....
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Date: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 04:52:27 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: anymous incognito
Subject: EV article on TV press review today !!
Message:
None of these so-called 'stars' can say that they've changed lives to earn their money....m can

None of them pretended to be God to pack their pockets. That's why.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 22:21:26 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This Poster's Identity
Message:
Look you guys - three otherwise respectable exes have jumped on the idea that this poster is Bjorn. Apart from the fact that the poster is obviously lacking in practice in using his/her brain, there is nothing linking this poster with Bjorn, who of course is still banned. So could we all use our own brains a bit more before jumping to such conclusions, huh?

Forum Admin

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 22:04:02 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: incognito cult member
Subject: He is No humanitarian darling: Think again
Message:
Grow up. Would you? I dare you to question your darling guru. What you are going to see is a pathetic cult lider of a cult.

How did he help you? Are you helping propagating the biggest lie ever? God talking a human form, eh? hahahahha

Your guru killed a person while driving....drunk?
Your guru hired prostitues.
Your guru doesn't practice what he preaches.
Your guru is full of crap.

But I assume you like having a guru, the whole trip, eh? It makes you feel special? Well, you are not special! There are many people that doesn't have K and are much more centered taht you guys. You guys are a sad case of idolatry hunger.

Enjoy your prision.

Question ALL!

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 18:08:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: anymous incognito
Subject: Get Lost Bjorn! You Asshole!
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 01:40:54 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: anymous incognito
Subject: come on, Bjorn, you can't be serious
Message:
you're an idiot to make such comparisions that might border on being racist
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 18:18:12 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: Hey FA! Isn't Bjorn banned? nt
Message:
xxxxx
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 01:11:43 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: anymous incognito
Subject: It's not because he's rich dumbo ...
Message:
... it's because he's a lying fucking scumbag who once claimed to be god , & now claims to be what ... ?

OK if your entertainment is watching a guy trying to stick a ball in a hole half a mile away , & your watching helps him get rich , then you can't complain .

If your whole life has been trifled with by a little cocksucker who got rich by convincing you that he was greater than JC , then you can .

GEDDIT.

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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 21:27:37 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: well said, Bin Liner, thanks, nt
Message:
xox
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 21:05:58 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: JM-did anyone record that TV spot? nt
Message:
aa
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 05:48:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: The TV spot IS online !
Message:
just need to find where, all the TV programs of that channel are online !

I now know at what time it was, I'm going to look for it today ........

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 18:45:49 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Just when he was going to do his post Amarscroo
Message:
European tour! Brilliant!

Let me know when the full article is up somewhere in French. I don't understand a word of it but one of my sisters is fluent and may get a kick out of it, as she's always thought the cult was pretty foolish.

I'll wait for the translation (sigh), which I hope will make it to the English speaking part of the world. Hope it's translated in multiple languages -- wherever EV and M goes!

Best, f

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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:37:56 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV article on TV press review today !!
Message:
I guess maybe Rawat will have to rethink his plans for acquiring Versailles as his French residence.
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 14:47:01 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: No heliport in Versailles I guess
Message:
I guess he'll have to walk ! Can you imagine this ?
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Date: Wed, May 09, 2001 at 20:18:46 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks J-M..He should walk...needs the exercise!nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 10, 2001 at 01:20:36 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks J-M..:)nt
Message:
wrstuf
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