Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, May 22, 2001 at 17:39:52 (GMT)
From: May 07, 2001 To: May 20, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


TiM -:- USA Today Denunciation ? -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 18:04:56 (GMT)
__ SB -:- I don't laugh. I'm with you -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 23:09:46 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Nobody Knows Maharaji, but.... -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 19:52:05 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Maharaj is common enough, as is 'Ji', but the -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 18:02:18 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Or... -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 18:50:58 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- MRC in Boston... -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 21:10:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- MRC in Boston... -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 21:22:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- MRC in Boston... -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:26:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- some history from Amsterdam.. -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 12:50:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Are you from Netherlands ? -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 15:16:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- I am -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 15:51:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Cultural differences ? US/Europe .... -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 17:10:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Cultural differences ? US/Europe .... -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 17:29:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ MRC -:- MRC in Boston... -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 00:55:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Activism -:- in Boston... -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:19:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- in Boston... -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 14:12:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Activism -:- worchester is where when -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 23:34:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- worchester is not confirmed (nt) -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 13:57:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- in Boston... -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 15:58:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- in Boston..and everywhere..PICKET signs -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 10:03:34 (GMT)

RT -:- SAT SONG: Cult Marshaled -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:51:38 (GMT)
__ Moldy Warp -:- Nice to hear you RT and welcome from me too Nt -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 00:57:07 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Welcome. RT. Thanks for the song. -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 23:52:10 (GMT)
__ SB -:- thanks RT. -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 00:17:28 (GMT)
__ __ RT -:- url welcome -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 00:56:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- url welcome -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:16:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ RT -:- url welcome -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 02:05:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ sb -:- url welcome -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 18:17:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ RT -:- url welcome -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 21:53:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- welcome -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 22:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ RT -:- welcome -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 02:33:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks for that affirmation, RT -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 08:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- happy birthday!!! -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 13:15:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- happy birthday!!! Thanks SB -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 18:57:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- nice quote, post!!! -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 03:44:41 (GMT)

TiM -:- Legal Action ? -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 21:56:11 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Maharaji has been sued before..... -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 22:58:56 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Legal Action ? -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 07:22:35 (GMT)
__ write -:- to California's Attorney General. -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:10:51 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- California's Attorney General. suggestion -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:20:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ free -:- California's Attorney General. suggestion -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:28:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- California's Attorney General. suggestion -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 04:43:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- I have an OT Question for you -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 09:32:39 (GMT)
__ janet -:- Legal Action ? I'm with you . Go after him. -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:42:23 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- The highest court -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:14:35 (GMT)
__ __ Carl -:- The highest court -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:53:22 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- there is a higher one. and there are the real ones -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:58:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gary Epton -:- And then there's a ton of money against the finest -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:02:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- I'll restate it -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:48:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carl -:- there is a higher one. and there are the real ones -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:33:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Michael Moore? or 60 minutes? -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:54:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Michael Moore? or 60 minutes? -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:35:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jondon -:- Michael Moore? or 60 minutes? -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:31:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- you are right maybe -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 22:48:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Is all bussiness eh? -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:27:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Carl -:- Michael Moore? or 60 minutes? -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:03:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dead people -:- Human beiings are dying. -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:32:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- What to do? -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:50:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- Thanks for answering. NT :0 -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:22:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi SB! -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- thanks. Didn't meant to be rude but funny. -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 05:44:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- What to do? -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:44:30 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- To those who say we weren't devotees -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 20:41:37 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Just a hug for you. NT -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:55:45 (GMT)
__ G -:- Change a few words and submit it to ELK -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:48:27 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- yeah, but Sir Dave's is quality unlike ELK (nt) -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 04:21:29 (GMT)
__ Gary Epton -:- To those who say we weren't devotees -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:33:24 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- OK, here's one of mine: -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 21:46:33 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- It could be worse -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:11:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bentmettle -:- There was Joan in Denver -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 02:16:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- you mean Rance Barela- a fine gay brother. -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 08:41:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Babs -:- Artists at IHQ -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:00:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bentmettle -:- And the writers were in little rabbit -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 05:14:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Bentmettle - were you there? -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 16:44:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- Writers -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 05:33:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- 'Chronicles of the Red Nighty' - who wrote that? -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 07:24:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- 'Chronicles of the Red Nighty' - authors -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 13:40:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- 'Chronicles of the Red Nighty' - is it on EPO? -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 17:26:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- 'Chronicles of the Red Nighty' - is it on EPO? -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 20:50:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks, Helen. If I can't find it , I'll holler NT -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 23:24:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Pat, I hope you are not shocked by content :)! nt -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 12:02:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Moi, shocked? Tickled pink maybe. NT -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:30:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- a premie artist -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:36:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- It IS worse -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:47:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Thank you. TRUE!!! Scott: read this. -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 07:53:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- It IS worse -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:47:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yes, we could only make holy art -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 22:55:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- True about formulaicTibetan art, Francesca, but.. -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 03:15:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I've broken off with all of it -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 05:06:19 (GMT)

Joe -:- Maharaji has done ZIPPO for the world. -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 18:52:11 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Terrific post, Joe ................ NT -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:05:59 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Very interesting, Joe -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 02:53:00 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- The top 8% -- scary indeed! n/t -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:15:35 (GMT)
__ bill -:- wow, that is revealing data Joe............nt -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:07:01 (GMT)

La-ex -:- Propagation surges in Smalltown,USA!!! -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 05:19:57 (GMT)
__ Queen Bee -:- I've been outed! -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 04:09:40 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- That made me laugh. Thanks. (nt) -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 00:16:05 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- The only sad part is that they -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 18:42:07 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- An idea -- brilliant if I do say so myself -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 18:01:02 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- An idea -- brilliant if I do say so myself/options -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Good ideas, but -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 23:05:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- How about SF,after Latvian night?...nt -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:13:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- How about SF,after Latvian night?...Yeah right -:- Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 08:01:52 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Sign me up for the fire extinguisher service -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 02:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- is that so everyone can get 'hosed'??? n/t -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 22:56:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Sign me up for fire extinguisher service/Hold on.. -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:11:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- dmnit, that's exactly how EV totalitarians are -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 04:14:51 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- brilliant !!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 19:31:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- brilliant !!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:22:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- brilliant !!!!!!!!!!!!!/video project options -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:44:37 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- just like God, the GOP and all other totalitarians -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:17:53 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- just like God, the GOP and all other totalitarians -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 14:36:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- from the other side of the road -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:38:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- 'Visions of exalted EV status danced in her heart' -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 14:56:10 (GMT)

Bazza -:- Maharaji's Mid-life Crisis? -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 19:59:34 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Good one Bazza. -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 16:37:54 (GMT)
__ janet -:- whata about the darshan tunnel? -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:16:42 (GMT)
__ janet -:- damn! you blew yer chance you shoulda done it -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:59:13 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- DO NOT...EVER...question the purity of the Master -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 22:34:26 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Maharaji is right, you know -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:56:37 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- DO NOT...EVER...question the purity of the Master -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 00:51:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Premies..Just what is Purity?I'd like to know.... -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:06:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- Premies..Just what is Purity?I'd like to know.... -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:27:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Premies..Just what is Purity?I'd like to know.... -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 16:24:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Christian Star -:- Premies..Just what is Purity?I'd like to know.... -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 05:33:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- you are a living master -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 13:39:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Premies..Just what is Purity?I'd like to know.... -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 15:59:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Growing Up -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 05:29:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- A really nice polite post, John -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 07:44:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- You're on to something with the identity of this -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 20:23:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Star-wanking navel gazer, Bin -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 22:38:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- ='pay no attention 2 that man behind curtain'(nt) -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 19:00:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- NO QUESTION...Rawat,...you're pure...bullshit. -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:51:13 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- am reminded of a promo soundbite -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 22:09:23 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- Excellent report Bazza - some questions -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:57:59 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- The Singing Rawats? -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:01:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Good for Hansi. I always wondered about him. -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 02:37:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- the black sheep of the family -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:41:30 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- Maharaji's Mid-life Crisis? -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:28:29 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Dead Premies don't send cheques . -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 23:15:39 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Thanks for the report -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:04:09 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Thanks, Bazza. That was a terrific report! NT -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:59:40 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Bazza,you're an honest man. Robin Hood would have -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:25:52 (GMT)

SB -:- Happy mother's day! NT -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 15:28:38 (GMT)
__ Babs -:- OK, let's go there -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 16:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- OK, let's go there -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 16:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- OK, let's go there--wham.that hurt.whew. -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:27:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- OK, let's go there. -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 09:53:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- OK, let's go there.-part II -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 10:27:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- You are wonderful Janet -:- Fri, May 18, 2001 at 02:19:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- many, many thanks for sharing all this, Janet -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 18:21:35 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- Good idea -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:41:40 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- You are my mother and you are my father -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 00:54:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- PS My son was my mother's only grandchild and she -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 03:55:27 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- OK, I owe her this -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:20:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- You are a good son -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:42:00 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- mixed emotions -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 19:26:12 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- OK, let's go there -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 17:36:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Your Mother spoke the truth -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- OK, let's go there -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 19:38:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Mother -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 19:48:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- My mother lives 2 miles away which is -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:21:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- being a community premie -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 18:34:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- Mothers and daughters -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 02:46:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Mothers and daughters -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 21:46:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Welcome home, Sweetie Dahling -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 08:00:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Welcome back!!! N/T -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:13:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yes Darling Disculta, Welcome back!!! N/T -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:17:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Thanks for the welcome y'all n/t -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 07:42:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Mothers and daughters -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:38:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Great thread -- my mom -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:10:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- She could go because she knew you were on the -:- Tues, May 15, 2001 at 08:08:57 (GMT)

Postie -:- 'You Know Who' by popular request -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 15:05:21 (GMT)
__ Christian Star -:- 'You Know Who' -- LOL -:- Wed, May 16, 2001 at 05:38:22 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- Firesign Theatre calls 1-888-610-0500 -NT -:- Mon, May 14, 2001 at 09:49:57 (GMT)
__ kev -:- He maybe You Know Who to them but...... -:- Sun, May 13, 2001 at 17:20:09 (GMT)


Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 18:04:56 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: MahaSamadhi
To: Everyone
Subject: USA Today Denunciation ?
Message:
Are there 1000 ex=premies who would donate ten-dollars each to do a one page denunciation in USA Today? We each have our own reasons for wanting Rawat gone. I've been laughed off this forum when describing my reasons. So, independent of this or that difference of opinion, a major newspaper denuciation might prevent the new wave of propogation that evidently is starting up from drawing in a large number of new victims.
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 23:09:46 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: I don't laugh. I'm with you
Message:
I'm in. Count on more than that!

Have an email address? I don't have one to give on this forum right now. You can get it from CQ, Salam, Selene, Brian and Kattie, JM, Hamsen, Sir Dave. Somebody from this forum posted a pornographic picture where a woman is in a strange situation with thre or four gentleman from behind, if you get what I mean, with my real name at the top and I consider him a unfriendly entity. I don't want to deal with that today simply because I do not have the time. :) His name is Zen; he did it. LOL. No brains.

I would like to talk with you very much to tell you some secrets.:)) Rataji hurted us but life is good, isn't?!! Once more, I thank you exes for helping me lift off. This is supper, it really is and i cannot put it in words. Real freedom?

Now lets get the rat. UFOS kidnapped rataji or something and he gotten weird, refusing to speak the truth directly so premies can finally leave, to live. He still has my son'father,yeap.

We need to give him a hand so he can stop all the insanity. We can do it if we want, why say oh well, there are other organizations that manipulate people in similar ways, but hey, this is MY guru maharaji, the one who took me for a ride where yes, there were many happy moments but now I see what he took from clearly. My guru maharaji, the one who tooked my youth and dreams away, the one who made me feel ashamed and uncomfortable with MYSELF so, so many times. My guru maharaji, the one that made me follow him and leave ALL and my family behind in other country and who I hardly see because I am so much fricking in debt following him. That is MY maharaji, my god, my everything, the one that finally took me there because he is full of compassion, my maharaji asked me to surrender to him as a requisite to experience liberation and I surrender eventuallay as 'God' wanted me to, and I did end up thinking about nothing else but him, as he told me it SHOULD BE. My Satguru is the one that confused me and persuaded me to become insane, even now sometimes, because 'he will never abandon me'. Oh yes I lost a lot, some of us did lose a lot. How do I know that he did that to people? Because I'm free to think today and I've noticed a big difference in my everyday life. My sick mind accomodated for many years all to fit, to justified rataji's sick ways but now I'm free and I feel it. No bondage. I see the difference. I know that life is what is supposse to be now, I won. ROFL!!

Talking about feeling a sense of liberation!! Yeah, I feel that today. He may be rich darling and walk around feeling pompous and powerful but he's a miserable, annal retentive, insecure scarry, sick stupid inmoral want to play god power hungry guru. LOL. I went nuts. hahahaha But lots of my money went to his pockets, or spent to support his dillusive trip. I want to stand up and say:To acquire slaves, even if with sweet lies is simply unacceptable, right?

Listen,I'm in. He was OUR guru maharaji, the bigger than God, you know, so, lets make some noice then and defend our rights. He didn't respected me or consider what would happened. EV didn't either. They went along with his dillusssions! This is the USA and we have the right to have our side of the story heard. He really fucked my life and that of many pretty good. I lost a lot following 'his invitation'. Man has regressed? In the year 2001 we people allow this to happen? I don't see why is bad to try, at least he would stop doing it to others. He is just another rotten greedy guru.

Sb in fire

:) bye now

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 19:52:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Nobody Knows Maharaji, but....
Message:
Hi,

When I mention to people that I was involved in a cult and the cult leader was Guru Maharaj Ji, most people don't know who I am talking about.

BUT....when I mention the ''boy guru'' they DO remember him.

This must be a part of any publicity so people know he's been around a long time since he was a kid, as well as the fact he is now in his forties and playing his same old con-game.

Maharaji is a common Hindu word right? Rawat doesn't have any trademarks on that name in the US, or does he?

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 18:02:18 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Maharaj is common enough, as is 'Ji', but the
Message:
combination into 'maharaji' would send many a Hindi grammarian (and Brahman) into apoplexy.

Maha = 'great/big'

Raj = 'king'

but, raji = ???

I guess the nearest English equivalent might be

'Big kingy-poos'?

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 18:50:58 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Or...
Message:
Instead of a one-time large ad, another strategy might be a newspaper advertisment announcing Maharaji's program every time he visits a Western city, in the U.S. or Europe, giving out the dates, times, and locales of the programs, and announcing the existence of this website. Just a small ad with a picture, an eye-catching headline such as Superior Power in Person is coming to Westchester, printed in the local newspaper about a week before the program.
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 21:10:44 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: MRC in Boston...
Message:
The add with picture and reference to MRC letter and EPO site was done last summer for the Boston program.
I think it is very effective, can be done fairly cheaply, and should be continued..
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 21:22:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: MRC in Boston...
Message:
I wasn't involved with the ad in Boston, but I think the entire MRC letter was printed in an alternative newspaper there. Was the date, time, and locale of Maharaji's program given in the ad? Was there a photo of Maharaji used, which one? Was the ex-premie.org website referenced?

I think the main reason to place ads for future programs would be to alert all the aspirants about the ex-premie website, and they should be in the city's main newspaper.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:26:34 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: MRC in Boston...
Message:
Way-I agree with you.
It can be pretty easy to do.
I would recommend putting an add with m's picture with a little quote plus the EPO site, maybe the MRC letter as well.

A letter was considered to be too long, and might not make sense to a lot of people who weren't premies or exes.
The MRC add was kind of a 'teaser' for the web site.
M's program could be mentioned or not.

The formula could done in each city he visits.

Also, I think we should consider some sort of program that could be taped and shown on cable access stations before a visit.
If we set up one program with the 'other side of the story' presented,and taped it,it could be offered in a number of ways.

It wouldn't necessarily have to even be a program, per se.
It could be short EV clips,some LOTU, and a presentation by someone talking about the blatant hypocrisies in m's world.
Also, web sites mentioned.
It could be done in a few different places that I know of.
I wonder how EV would take it?

La-ex

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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 12:50:16 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: some history from Amsterdam..
Message:
In 74-75 (?) There was a public program planned with m. as speaker. In those days DLM did not have guidelines or experience with press releases. The paper was informed and subsequently there was a large crowd waiting. A large part was just curious, but there were plenty of people just waiting to have a field day confronting the fraud...
Anyway ,m. never showed up, and the whole program ended up in a big riot! Now for who knows Amsterdammers, they do love that kind of fun, so these results might be bigger than would be in other places. Since that program the press did not talk about the boy guru, but only about the FAT guru!
But it does illustrate a trend easily archievable even with minor ads. The effect is like a snowball: the events become chaotic, which becomes publicity in itself!
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 15:16:51 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Are you from Netherlands ?
Message:
I always wondered why there were so few premies there !

Maybe they're smart after all. Is this something related to culture ? Like for Germany. Compared to other European countries. Not that there are many premies in other places ... and not that many left too !!!

They'll soon have more premies in Netherlands than in UK !!!

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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 15:51:45 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I am
Message:
But living in Florida, moving to Georgia. When I left I was completely out of touch with the cult for about 4 years. The impression was the same as what I get from the forum: a slowly declining cult, with a number of die-hards.
At the maximum, '74-'84 the major satsang meetings drew about 200 premies. I have no clue how things are there now.
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 17:10:46 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Cultural differences ? US/Europe ....
Message:
Do you think that the nazis and fascists episodes in Europe left something that makes us Europeans more careful with that type of groups and brainwashing techniques ?

Somebody suggested this on the French forum. Thus the different attitudes towards cults here ...

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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 17:29:22 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Cultural differences ? US/Europe ....
Message:
Could be , but I think in Europe religion under several hundreds of years of age is looked upon as something very suspicious.
In america we don't have a very long collective memory, which is good for technology and innovation, but can lead to a more naive aproach towards religious predators.
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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 00:55:28 (GMT)
From: MRC
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: MRC in Boston...
Message:
I think the entire MRC letter was printed in an alternative newspaper there.i>

No, address of the letter.

/ Was the date, time, and locale of Maharaji's program given in the ad?

The wording of the advert was 'Remember the 14-year-old Perfect Master? He's Still Here. Copely Theater, [Date] Followed by the address of the MRC letter.

The letter is still on the interenet by the way, at www.openlettertomaharaj.org.

Was there a photo of Maharaji used, which one?

Yes, a relatively recent one, in which Maharaji looks uglier than sin, and a lot like Sung Myung Moon.

Was the ex-premie.org website referenced?

No, because MRC did not want to associate its efforts with EOP, but MRC would recommend printing the EPO website address in future ads.

I think the main reason to place ads for future programs would be to alert all the aspirants about the ex-premie website, and they should be in the city's main newspaper.

I agree. It might also advertise 'alternative' programs which might be a little less one-sided.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:19:27 (GMT)
From: Activism
Email: None
To: MRC
Subject: in Boston...
Message:
Here is a qoute from the miami program Bazza went to.
The master is really asking for it.

''Don't ever question the purity of this knowledge, don't ever question the purity of this experience and DO NOT...EVER... question the purity of the Master' (emphasis real).

As he said that last bit, I just pictured him after the event, lighting up a cig and sipping his brandy!:) But it was scary the way he is now trying to bully the remaining devotees, and newcomers, into blind obedience once more.'

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 14:12:10 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Activism
Subject: in Boston...
Message:
I guess we can return to this idea in the U.S. the next time a program is announced here.
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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 23:34:13 (GMT)
From: Activism
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: worchester is where when
Message:
The program is what dates?
What location?
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 13:57:00 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Activism
Subject: worchester is not confirmed (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 15:58:48 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: in Boston...
Message:
I'd be willing to donate for the ads. I think a lot of us would. It would take a point person or persons in each city that has major Maha programs. Once a camera-ready ad is put together to submit to the papers (some of the ex-And it is Divine crew or Shri Hans Productions Crew may be able to help here), it may be able to be used again with slight modifications wherever the rat decides to land.

Good thread. Hope we can work together on this!

Many of us are blissfully in Maha free towns. Some of us are even in towns he probably never even drives through. Some are even in Maharaji-free countries! But I bet many of us would be willing to help!

==f

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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 10:03:34 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: in Boston..and everywhere..PICKET signs
Message:
Maharaji you are not WELCOME HERE !

Maharaji/aka Guru Maharaji take your POISON elsewhere !

NO MORE SUICIDES, Maharaji(real name Rawat) !

Why do you harbor CHILD MOLESTORS, Maharaji(aka Lord of the Universe)?

Maharaji, you DANCE like Elaine Benis !!

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:51:38 (GMT)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Everyone who can hum
Subject: SAT SONG: Cult Marshaled
Message:
Innertainment - take a break.

Adapted From the Fairport Convention’s 1969 hit The Deserter [Trad. Arr] on the ‘Liege & Lief' Album, sung by Sandy Denny - British traditonal folk-rock.

Dedicated to the College you can’t get in Knowledge!

CULT MARSHALED

As I was in college - just starting that day,
A guru-ing of my peers came a-bleating my way.
They entreated me with ‘Knowledge’- and Indian food -
And into an ashram they asked me to move.

When first I deserted, I thought myself free
Until my housefather informed against me.
I was quickly apprehended, by this weird ’family’
I was satsang’d and brainwashed, heavy trips put on me.

Cult Marshaled, Cult Marshaled, they swayed against me.
And the consensus placed upon me: Three hundred Arti!
May the Law serve notice on them, for their sad divinity.
Now rational thinking depends upon me.

When next I deserted I thought myself free,
Until yuppie Mahatmas informed against me.
I was quickly brought to Serve-us, and handed some Ghee,
Told: Prostrate to the photo of His Lotus Feet!

Cult Marshaled, Cult Marshaled, (My paycheck they got)
Heard the tape of Guru yelling: “Your Mind’s Vegetables Rot!”
May the Net swerve upon them, for their mad divinity.
For logical thinking depends upon thee.

......

Then up rose this web site, with it's Journeys’ - and clicks,
Saying, “Others had caught on to Rawat's Wealth Tricks !
We are free of his lying, and tell all to see!”

- Me? - Now I write funny songs for those good Ex-premies.

+++

http://geocities.com/frabaxter/fairport.html - click on Sandy Denny. No songs on Napster.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 00:57:07 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: moldy_warp@hotmail.com
To: RT
Subject: Nice to hear you RT and welcome from me too Nt
Message:
x
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 23:52:10 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Welcome. RT. Thanks for the song.
Message:
When I first read your post on Monday I did not know that you were a newbie. I am too new here as well and don't know everybody yet. I just assumed you were an old-timer whom I had not yet met until I read your reply to SB below.
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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 00:17:28 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: thanks RT.
Message:
His lotus feet, yuck!

He didn't want us to put our eyes in the world but to look at him only and asking us to do Satsang, service and meditation was his ways to keep us ignorant and needy of him, after all, without his grace we are nothin. Remember when he prompted us in the first years to leave everything? What a ride we had.

Have you seen the Lotus video?

take care of yourself.

sb

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 00:56:51 (GMT)
From: RT
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: url welcome
Message:
Hi SB. I exed 3 years ago this month and don't get out too much here. No, have not seen Lotus video recently, maybe in the 80's.

I can tell you that it is a relief to have forgotten Maha mostly; still feel the meditation at night or when quiet, and am saving for my retirement instead of his. Living well is the best revenge.

thanks

RT

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:16:41 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: url welcome
Message:
Yeap. Living well is the best revenge. Katie told me that one day and it came handy to remember it few times when I wanted to feel sorry for myself.

It's good that you forgot ratashi, I haven't yet forgot but it's much better, sometimes still bothers me. Satsangs of him come to my memory, like a recording. LOL.

I meditate sometimes mainly to relax. After leaving rat I couldn't do the techniques because I associated them to him, and about a year after I began reading the Tao, curious because someone close to me is into that and came across some breathing techniques with visualisations and it like its results. It energizes me. Don't care about end of the book where after explaining the characteristics of a complete human being, bla, bla, good common sense stuff throws the idea in a dialogo taht you must surrender and follow the master. Is all allegoric? Was there a master or is it talking about mastering something in ourselves? The Tao is about 5,000 years old. Gurus were in bussiness even than? :0

Rawat DO sucks! we won. :)

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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 02:05:19 (GMT)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: SB
Subject: url welcome
Message:
Hi SB

well that makes you a TAO-boy of the Universe. Get along little goddie. Ride them waves.

Glad you have subsituted...after 18 months of this forum I drifted away, check in occasionally...so in time the wounds go away. Formula: each year in a cult =1 month of letting go....read it somewhere.

RT

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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 18:17:44 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: url welcome
Message:
You say:

well that makes you a TAO-boy of the Universe. Get along little goddie. Ride them waves

Actually, I don't understand exactly how you are saying it but its 'my own way' practice has energized me with a good energy. Nobody can change my personality. I am. I am having fun but in the same token I feel more responsible, and now I respect and see people in a better way, more harmonious, more positive and attribute that in part to Tao, The Universal Way of the Universe, what is. No name.

If what you said is true that means that I have few months to let got still. Yuck! I still have my spells but they are short; I don't want to allow 'You know who' to spoil the rest. we are safe, WE WON.lol

I don't remember your innitials, have you been here with another name?

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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 21:53:17 (GMT)
From: RT
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: url welcome
Message:
I heard TAOism is the one pure religion on the planet; it's is good that you are in tune.

I am whot I am. It's always been time for RT here; left last year and am just checking in..so to you I am new.

RT

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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 22:43:54 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: welcome
Message:
anytime. LOL

You said:

I heard TAOism is the one pure religion on the planet; it's is good that you are in tune.

The funny thing is that when I meet maharaji in the 70s I was in the right track, practicing yoga and livng a pretty normal life as a young adult. I was young but had an understanding of myself and the world and felt happy, until a premie took me to satsang and that started the strange trip. Yes, Tao is simple but is everything and I am not missing anything and I know for sure and ratashi was wrong. He said many common sense stuff but the end under his power is a form of death, wouldn't you say?

I am reading the Tao, not much, once in a while, and it has clarified a lot my sick mind and following some principles has helped me much. It's very inspiring and it contains simple common sense and it's attracting me more and more because truly is an individual experience; no need to be sheep. I will not talk about my experiences because they are personal but they feel right and make me happy to think that I have found a harmony I never felt before. I never felt like this when I was a premie.

How are you doing? Does your religious mind still hunts you sometimes?

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 02:33:00 (GMT)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: sb
Subject: welcome
Message:
Hello, nice post SB

'they feel right and make me happy to think that I have found a harmony I never felt before. I never felt like this when I was a premie.'

As I sees it this is because you are intergrated. You are whole as intended, feeling without the brainwasher from Mailbu..who used to say 'what you are looking is inside of you' - and no one ever got up and said 'OK, F**k You very Much' and left! That shows the sheeple.

My first relief in May '98 was: ah, no more videos! I felt free and relaxed.

To answer your Query, my religious mind' is 'Creational', like TAOism. Favorite Quote: I am a spiritually developing being. As a part of Creation I acknowledge Creation in all things, even the smallest microbe. I lead a creative life, causing fears and doubts to vanish like rain before the sun. Bt creative thinking I acquire knowledge,and wisdom and a sense of unlimited strenght which unbinds me from the limitations of convention and dogma.'

For example, I make the funny songs for my own enjoyment, driving to work, and post them for whoever. It's being creative that is the fun. If you get it, cool!

OH, to see 'convention and dogma' : reminds me of: Long Beach Programs!

RT

PEACE IN WISDOM

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 08:58:09 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Thanks for that affirmation, RT
Message:
RT said: ''As a part of Creation I acknowledge Creation in all things, even the smallest microbe. I lead a creative life, causing fears and doubts to vanish like rain before the sun. By creative thinking I acquire knowledge,and wisdom and a sense of unlimited strenght which unbinds me from the limitations of convention and dogma.''

Absolutely fabulous, RT. Although I prefer to use the phrase ''optimistic outlook'' to affirmation because the New Agers have twisted the science of mind into silly putty.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 13:15:05 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: happy birthday!!!
Message:
Post that above? That is what it IS.

You write better than me. Do it please....

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 18:57:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: happy birthday!!! Thanks SB
Message:
I'm looking forward to your email.
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 03:44:41 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: nice quote, post!!!
Message:
Music is one of the most beautiful expression of creativity. Music is harmony. Look at all the credits we gave rawashit.

These ancients ones knew something, eh?

I was there at LB. How silly his world is, so stiff and orchestrated,unnatural, ass retentive. :0

I hope you come back once in a while. Premie lurkers need to know that they are missing the point and suffering for no reason porque is possible to enjoy life without intermediaries.

When did you got in? you left in 98, I in end of 99.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 21:56:11 (GMT)
From: TiM
Email: MahaSamadhi
To: Everyone
Subject: Legal Action ?
Message:
Has this website ever discussed legal action against Rawat, or at least major newspaper denunciation ? I remember an ex-devotee of a Christian cult in Texas sueing to get donated money back and won the lawsuit - many years ago. And a lawyer in Louisiana sued the KKK in Louisiana for every sent they had and every cent they would ever have - and won the lawsuit. Are there any action grouos actualy doing anything other than bellyacheing?
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 22:58:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Maharaji has been sued before.....
Message:
There have been a number of suits against Elan Vital and Maharaji seeking various damages, including donations. Also, there has been at least one suit brought by the parents of a minor who was revealed knowledge and had some resulting problems. I think those suits for settled for money, before they ever went to trial.

Note that Elan Vital now makes a big deal about not revealing knowledge to people under 18. There is a reason for that.

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 07:22:35 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Legal Action ?
Message:
TiM:

It's been discussed lots. Grounds for action are thin. There's the tax thing, since the cult seems to want it's cake and eat it too, but premies don't have standing on that. It's a federal wrap. Various class actions have been discussed, but unless he has done something very specific and personal (unlikely) then the general grounds that he has conned people by misrepresenting himself as God would be a hard case to win. Most people are gonna say: 'You believed he was God? Why?' Meanwhile, have fun with him. He hates what we're doing on this site, and it does have an effect. As Francesca and Joe have pointed out, publishing documents about what EV does and does not claim regarding it's religious status, and the associated inconsistencies, could be a lot of fun. It might lead to something with the IRS, but the duplicity is embarrassing in it's own right.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:10:51 (GMT)
From: write
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: to California's Attorney General.
Message:
All of us should do it and that would make a difference. One, two people wont count.

We have the evidence.

The type of practice maharaji uses is damaging to every person, and the damage varies depending in the involvement we had in the cult. His teachings do not empower people, do not make them stronger human beings but the opposite. A person becomes a walking blub of doubts and duality. Breath in, breath out, do not think. People have commited suicide. I almost killed myself because I couldn't love him at times. I hated him.
he calls people stupid; he laughs at the social systems we humans had created; maharaji tell us we must surrender to him;. Mind, body and soul focussed on him, forever? What about my garden?

This guy is really dangerous. I don't know what kind of responsability you guys feel to inform other beings of the danger but some of us do, I do.

I'm for it. The webmaster has my phone number and Email address, and can be given ONLY to regular participants in this forum. Email this to the Webmaster if interested in coming with a plan. What needs to be done require work and time and I can't do it alone. cq has my email address too.

SB

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:20:11 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: write
Subject: California's Attorney General. suggestion
Message:
Somebody with some legal background could make a letter to be printed out and signed, along with adress etc. Then it is easy to do and just takes 5 minutes and a stamp
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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:28:23 (GMT)
From: free
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: California's Attorney General. suggestion
Message:
we need to unite

free=write=sb

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 04:43:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: California's Attorney General. suggestion
Message:
You have to have a complaint in an area over which the AG has jurisdiction. They have a division that has some oversight over charities, but not charities that have been given tax-exempt status as a church. It is still unclear, but it looks like EV is a church.

First of all people would have to decide exactly why they are lodging a complaint and what for. Then you have to decide what laws govern it, and which agency has jursidction over those laws.

I know that many letters to the AG or whomever can carry some weight, but only if you have a specific complaint in an area where the agency has an oversight role or jurisdiction.

--f

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 09:32:39 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: tallbob47@earthlink.net
To: Francesca
Subject: I have an OT Question for you
Message:
Would you please e-mail me?
BTW I am just on my way to visit my kids in Atlanta. So I will be off line for 2-3 days
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:42:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: Legal Action ? I'm with you . Go after him.
Message:
I still feel that suing him as a class action is potent. Not just in one country but in all of them,long and hard and with relentless publicity unto ruination.
Hit him endlessly with every last concivable law and charge even remotely related and justified.

The most pernicious crippling of will is when the victim blames him or herself, and does nothing. Its impotent and powerless and leaves the criminal to operate freely and victimize others at will.

Equally pernicious is when society blames the victim for what happened to them and takes no action to right the injustice.

People are defrauded every day and the law has teeth to get them justice, no matter how gullible they may have been. Mail order fraud, telephone sales fraud, contractor fraud, confidence schemes, pyramid schemes, the list goes on and on, and they are no less prosecutable because they preyed upon the innocence and trust and credulidity of everyday people who took them as they presented themselves. It is not a crime to hear someone and believe them and give them a chance at their own word. That is the right way of being a human being. Its innate, its natural and a god given birthright.
What IS a crime, and the law is written to render jsutice for perpetrating it, is to use that innate trust and belief to swindle innocent people out of their life savings, their hard earned livings, their assetts, their time, their work and anything else that is obtained of them by fraudulent claims and means.

the son and now the brother of the US president served the mandated sentence in prison for that very crime. I speak of Neil Bush in the 1980's savings and loan scandals, specifically Silverado Bank, which gambled away the life savings of pensioners, speculating with their money in the stock market against their will and knowledge, and losing it all.

If the son and brother of the US president is not exempt, what makes anyone think maharaji is?

a thing is only impossible for as long as you think it is. It is only useless for as long as you think it is. It is only hopeless for as long as you think it is.

All it takes is one.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:14:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: TiM
Subject: The highest court
Message:
This highest court is the court of public opinion. This website is a major thorn in Rawat's side, and continues to be so.

Certain ex-premies, because of their own particular factual situations, may have a cause of action against Rawat (child abuse, sex harassment, whatever). As a group, however, people have looked at the situation many times over the years. What law is there against being stupid and giving some guy who says he's god-in-a-bod all your money, unless he:
kidnapped you and made you write checks
kept you in chains in a basement???

You get the picture. Some look at this as bellyaching, and there is an element of venting that does go on here. But you must be new. If you really read some of the threads, the story is being told by folks with 'credentials' and ordinary people. Folks that were around during the days of ashrams and devotion, and folks that are recent exes. And the story is: why would you want to join this cult or stay in this cult? and why would you want to put Rawat on a pedestal and treat him like a 'Master'?

The best that most of us can do is discuss how to see the cult for what it really is, how to get out of the grips of it, and to understand what we did so that we don't do it again. I have only been active about 5 months, and old friends of mine tell me they have been lurking for months. Many people read, and don't post. There's something that keeps them here, and reminds them not to waste another precious minute of their time.

--f

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:53:22 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The highest court
Message:
Oh yes, I can heartily vouch for the healing benefits of lurking (or 'monitoring') at one's own pace.

It takes a while to completely reconfigure one's interior landscape from the ground up, at least it does for me. And it is an on-going process.

When we can compare notes, as we do here, and share feelings and reactions that may have secretly troubled us when we were isolated within a cult that sought to suppress any courageous individual speaking out about the utter bizarreness of the whole scene, then the clear judgments from the court of public opinion are indeed the affirmation and balance that we've been thirsting for since we first felt our first 'drip'. Isolated no longer, it all becomes clearer and clearer.

Sorry for longwindedness. Just wanted to say 'here, here' for the process of lurking. It really is necessary.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:58:30 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: there is a higher one. and there are the real ones
Message:
the court of public opinion doesnt have the legal power to imprison or execute a criminal for his crimes, francesca. the real court does. the court of public opinon doesnt have the lawful power to seize the assetts of a fraud and strip him of his fortune. the real court does. the court of public opinion doesnt have the lawful power to liquidate those seized assetts and remunerate the wronged, fairly. The real court does. This website does not reach the general public and the world. We might like to think it does, but in truth it only reaches those who can read english, french or spanish, and of those, only those who care. It does not reach those who have no access or ability to use the internet or a computer. In reality our efforts are reaching very select few.

the law and the press can reach the world. as OJ Simpson found out. As Imelda Marcos found out. As did Idi Amin, and Papa Doc Duvalier, and the Shah of Iran, and Manuel Noriega.
As did Bhagwan shri Rajneesh, and Jim ad Tammy Faye Bakker, and Sai Baba, and David Koresh.

Once the world knows, there is noplace to run, noplace to hide, no place to operate.

If you want the court of public opinion, then you have to get it out there into the world media and pursue it relentlessly.

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:02:49 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: And then there's a ton of money against the finest
Message:
legal beagles m can afford. Pro bono Jim Ji?
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:48:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I'll restate it
Message:
The highest court that most of us are going to be able to go to is the court of public opinion. Be realistic. What actual legal cause of action do you have against him?

As I said above, some people may have a legal cause of action. In fact, I hope they do. But there are plenty of phonies in the world, defrauding plenty of people--you've named quite a few. If you feel you have a legal cause of action, go for it. I personally don't have one, and I don't think most people on this forum do, no matter how mad they are.

And I don't know about you, but I have better things in life to do than to get worked up over Rawat. I will not make it a full time crusade. I spend way too much time on this forum as it is. Someone got an article out in France. More power to them. But this talk of legal action thing comes up from time to time, everyone gets worked up about it, but you can't make up a lawsuit out your anger.

--f

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:33:17 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: there is a higher one. and there are the real ones
Message:
Wouldn't the whole amazing, sordid, tragi-comic DLM-Prempal story be just the thing the major investigative shows would be delighted to dig into, for the infotainment/benefit (and as a cautionary tale) for the public?

The story has everything: stupendous wealth, sex scandals, physical and psycological abuse, proclamations and denials of Godhood, murder(s), and a colorful cast of thousands. Fiction could never come close.

It's funny, but having been in ashrams and so forth for a big part of my life, I never had a TV or direct easy access to one, and sort of prided myself on being beyond all that popular culture crap anyway. And a lot of it is crap.

But recent years have brought me greater exposure to some rather fascinating thought-provoking U.S. TV shows (some of them a bit gruesome and even macabre) but they are an amazing counterpoint to suppression and paranoiac control. Wackiness may be one of the prices of liberty. And the Prempal scene is the epitome of wackiness.

So how to expose the story to the media? Wouldn't, say, Bill Kurtis Productions, or Stone Phillips MSNBC, or City Confidential, or whatever, be delighted with a story of this depth and magnitude?

Quite squirm-worthy, I'd say.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:54:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Michael Moore? or 60 minutes?
Message:
Bet they won't get any interviews with EV folks though.
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:35:59 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Michael Moore? or 60 minutes?
Message:
I contacted Moore few months a go and he haven't responded yet, maybe never? I feel he is not interested expossing guru's abuses but is interested in big companies, government. Cult members are a minority and affect a small number of people and maybe that is the reason why he didn't get interested. maybe if more people write to him he changes his mind. Here is the link to his site:

Michael Moore's Site

I am not posting here the organizations reactions because they are in Spanish, also, to avoid giving too much advantage to Lard I will avoid telling their names. What can be a good idea is to write a good letter and send it around. I did write to few organizations against cults and two sites responded me asking me to send a testimony of my experience with Guru Maharaji, the Lord of the Universe and I wrote back asking them to investigate our site. One of them wrote me back asking me to sumarize all, assuming I know our site's content, as saying that it was too much for them to read and understand.I'm working on it, slow, how my health allows it. The other is waiting for the same; details. Media? The more letters the media gets the more attention it will bring. Can you imaging? If they began to receive them it may create curiosity, at least for them to investigate.

JM, any ideas?

I struggle to write, English is my second language but I want to support anybody interested in expossing Lard.

No brakes for Lard. Loving all humans and nature etc. is good, feels good but certain people are simply not worth of our love and our respect. They have to be stopped! To love an evil person would mean to go against my morals. I may consciently love and understand their essence, but some are gone. Maharaji will never stop being God in his own. DARSHAN given lately shows that. They have become by choice in something weird. They made their choices and that makes their behavior unacceptable. In a way we do have a social responsability toward the innocent people he prays upon.

SB, ex-aspirant contact, not afraid anymore of the bozos we have in our human family, cult members, ignorants that don't know what they are talking about! It's a noble cause.

PS: Maharaji, Im getting stronger and stronger. You lied to me and I want your appology. I need it. Then maybe I can see you with other eyes. You are coocky guy talking about nothing new. Give it up peacefully. Redemption? You sin against humanity scaring us with your threats and trying to bring the whole world to your miserable bubble gum world!. Begin talking, PLEASE!!! We need you now so we can grow as individuals, so we can get healthier mentality. You damaged a very important part of us, irresponsibly.

We ex-premies are waiting. Hi EV robots!

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:31:25 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Michael Moore? or 60 minutes?
Message:
maybe once the COMBAT magazine article has been translated, they would be interested in pursuing the matter. The article promises to shed some light on the whole DLM/EV con. It might be what they need to read to decide if it is something they would like to turn into a documentary. Then there is the audience, Do you think middle America gives a rat's ass about theRat's Ass? Nobody would watch it,they could care less about this little pissant of a shit, Maharaji. No audience, no sponsers, no money, no documentary.
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 22:48:34 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: you are right maybe
Message:
It takes times sometimes to make news explode. I'm waiting with a grin in my eyes. Sb is all for justice. he he he he

Love and truth always win. The universal law is real.

I feel a shifting coming.

SB, becoming 'spiritual'. hahahahaha ... who cares

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:27:04 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Is all bussiness eh?
Message:
That is a possibility but maybe a well 'painted' scandalous pic of activities, or many people complaining can lead to something. I think. We'll see. I may be wrong. There is so much that can be used to paint that pic. Geraldo Rivera? LOL I know that there must be somebody who can get interested. It must be. I don't care if it's America, everywhere scandalous news sell and my guru chacharachi left too many documented spots behind taht can appeal to some caring soul.

An idea would be to pick few of them (reporters) and few of us write to them individually or sign a letter.

:)

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:03:34 (GMT)
From: Carl
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Michael Moore? or 60 minutes?
Message:
Yeah, those kind of shows.

But there must be a mountain of documentation that would interest them.

Gosh, even I still have a box down my basement of old AIID magazines and other objets d'art. And what with all the archival material resident on this site, I'd imagine they would have a field day.

Or is this still too parochial, too small-potatoes? You'd think the magnitude of wealth and its method of acquisition and its squandering would alone be enough of a story, even without the divinity angle.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:32:19 (GMT)
From: Dead people
Email: None
To: Carl
Subject: Human beiings are dying.
Message:
The cult drives people insane.
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:50:06 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: What to do?
Message:
Taking legal action in this context is very complicated and very pricey. It is not to be undertaken light-heartedly. Any lawyer who decides to initiate such a suit should realize that their opponent has unlimited funds and a huge international law firm as their litigation adversary.

Like Frannie, I suspect that certain individuals might have viable civil suits against EV, M, and certain people who run the cult. I am not offering any opinion about that. Perhaps there is a potential class action suit too. I offer no opinion about that either. Go and talk to a civil lawyer who does class actions before you clamor for this sort of justice. I would love to see EV and Captain Rawat hauled into court, but there are lots of issues to sort out before deciding whether such a suit should be brought, and who should bring it. Litigation is nasty business.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:22:28 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Thanks for answering. NT :0
Message:
y
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 04:43:47 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: sb
Subject: Hi SB!
Message:
SB: Sorry for my non-reply. I hate talking about the whys and why nots of suing EV in public more than I did in my post. Up above, in the thread started by Been There, I discussed at length this case he mentioned where former Moonies sued the Unification Church. Perhaps that post will be helpful.

You can always email me if you want.

Fondly, Marianne

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 05:44:23 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: thanks. Didn't meant to be rude but funny.
Message:
I will read it. i wish the day had 48 hours! hahahaha

thanks again

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:44:30 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: What to do?
Message:
Hi Marianne,

You said:

I would love to see EV and Captain Rawat hauled into court, but there are lots of issues to sort out before deciding whether such a suit should be brought, and who should bring it. Litigation is nasty business.

Can you please tell me what you mean by that? Thanks.

:)

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 20:41:37 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: To those who say we weren't devotees
Message:
Here's what I wrote back in 1978. I think my devotion to Maharaji may have been a little mispaced but then I did think he was the Lord. Hmm, if he had been the Lord, I would still be his devotee. The last verse really says where I was at - I was projecting divinity and Godness onto Maharaji's photographs. Sad but that's how it was and perhaps still is for some people.


IN HIM I SEEK REFUGE

What strength can I turn to
Whose shoulder to cry on,
What words of comfort to soothe and assure me
In the dark night of longing and passion
For someone to love me?

What love to carress me
To warm and invite me
To stay here for ever
And never be lonely?
Whose arms do I reach for
Through misty confusion
Of hell and delusion
Of wretched self doubt
And dark clouds of illusion?

And who do I cry for in hours of despair?
In anguish of pain
So deep as an ocean of infinite rain.
I long for devotion to Him that I cry for
And refuge I seek
In His pure love abounding.

Oh God can you hear me
Through tortured frustration
You said you'd not leave me
To suffer again.
I have faith in you Lord
That you'll never desert me
And cease to refill me with me
With your limitless love.

For a promise you gave me
Your faithful devotee
A promise that's worth a mine full of gold,
A palace of riches and a world full of diamonds
Of wonders and dreams of powers untold.

For you promised me love
Of the kind that I crave for,
An infinite love
That is yours for the giving
And mine for the taking.
I thank you dear Father for strength
And the comfort of kind reasurance
Your words bring to me.

Your smile is my heaven
That says all is perfect,
Your feet are the refuge
My head seeks to rest on.
The love that we share
Both Lord and devotee
Will shine all around
For the whole world to see.

And people can witness
Our love for each other,
A love that nothing
Would dare tear assunder.
As I gaze at your form
I only can wonder
How lucky I am
To love one as Thee.

David Simpkiss (1978)

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:55:45 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Just a hug for you. NT
Message:
lard sucks
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:48:27 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Change a few words and submit it to ELK
Message:
and if you used a different name, they would probably post it. Well, maybe not now but ...
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 04:21:29 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: G
Subject: yeah, but Sir Dave's is quality unlike ELK (nt)
Message:
kjkj
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:33:24 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: To those who say we weren't devotees
Message:
Those sentiments certainly ring a bell (or is it a gong?) in me. Reading your words of recognition and devotion makes me feel anger (and despair) that such genuine yearning could be so sadly misplaced. That m could inspire an innocent heart to make such a declaration only to discover further down the road that his saviour was more interested in simply gaining devotees and a larger bank balance than nurturing your soul. Even for me to say this now I have to conjure up the m who was asking Dettmers to procure premie women for him. What did he care about their devotion?
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 21:46:33 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: OK, here's one of mine:
Message:
I probably wrote this in 1976...the year GMJ briefly de-emphasized devotion, in what turned out to be a trial run for the nineties. Darshan, in the summer of '76 in Indianapolis, was performed at a distance of twenty or thirty feet, as I recall. Pranam, but no kissy.

Nevertheless, in our cozy little satsang covens in Bloomington, Indiana, we didn't have to pretend that He was not the Lord, and I remember singing this original sat-song in someone's living room at about that time:

(this is the chorus...the verses had to do with encountering all kinda shit in life)

I found the Lord
I found the Lord
I found the Lord
Or should I say
(dramatic pause)
the Lord found me
And set me free

How humiliating, recalling all this tragicomically misplaced devotion!

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:11:08 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: It could be worse
Message:
Some people are poets, some singers and musicians and then there are artists. Imagine having painted the Lord's mush forever in oils on canvas, complete with smug smile and glowing radiance? Imagine having your name on that painting and it hanging on someone's wall?

I wonder how many portraits of the Maha there are lying around. Must admit, I didn't know many premie artists and can't think of any who painted the Lord. Perhaps they thought it was sacreligious to paint the Lord's form.

Must have been lots of premie poets and songsters about though. The angst and suffering plus the 'longing' that goes with the being a premie all go to make great lyric even though it's all wasted.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 02:16:20 (GMT)
From: Bentmettle
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: There was Joan in Denver
Message:
who M 'commissioned' to do portraits of his dad in the 70s. She was also good on swans and had a massive shrine in the artroom in the Kittredge building.

There was also the guy who did the airbrushed fantasies for various posters and a few designs for Celestial Seasonings.

Rumour has it that one of his sparkling castles leant crookedly because he was on mescalin at the time!

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 08:41:42 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bentmettle
Subject: you mean Rance Barela- a fine gay brother.
Message:
my kid's father once took a notion to seat himself in a rattan shell chair that hung from a single chain from the ceiling... Rance had temporarily put it there for the day until he could take it home and properly anchor a bolt in the house's ceiling rafters to hang it from sturdily, as it was meant to be mounted, to take the weight of a grown man.

unfortunately, Rance's office ceiling in the Kittredge building was a suspended acoustic tile ceiling.
held up by wires. that were meant to only take the weight of the asbestos tiles.

and when my son's father sat in it, well...
down came the tiles, and the framework, and years upon years of Kittredge building dust, all over Rance's small, crowded office.

Rance came in moments later.

ummmmmm...yeh. uh huh. like that.

luckily, Rance looked around stunned, realized what happened, and laughed.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:00:48 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Bentmettle
Subject: Artists at IHQ
Message:
Joan's last name was Swan. We called her Swan most of the time. Richard (who posts on this forum) worked very closely with her, and with Rance Barela, the airbrush king, and James Schultz the rapidograph master. Incredibly talented hardworking and underappreciated people. I shared a car with Rance, and never knew anything about mescalin use. He was a very sweet guy.

I worked next door in the layout and pasteup department with Bruce Gaylord, James Martin, Kathy Prince, Joanie Sylvester, even Bill Patterson's sister Jane. Joy (who posts on this forum) worked closely with us as a typesetter, as did Guy Rollins' wife Janice and a sister named Kim from New Jersey. Would love to know where they all are now.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 05:14:11 (GMT)
From: Bentmettle
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: And the writers were in little rabbit
Message:
warrens all over the place until they were consolidated in one room one floor up as 'Conceptual Design' as people began to peel off - Charles Cameron (whom Lou Schwartz called 'Chuck' just to annoy him), Sophia Collier, Paul ?, the editor of AIID, leaving Dan Hinckley, editor of the infamous Times Two, Doug Bernard, and Michael McDonald. About that time people started posting fake presidential campaigns in 401 and McDonald suggested the president of DUO should be called 'Captain Trips'.
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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 16:44:12 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Bentmettle
Subject: Bentmettle - were you there?
Message:
I'm curious, you seem to have been at IHQ when I was. Email me if you wish.
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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 05:33:35 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Bentmettle
Subject: Writers
Message:
Paul, the editor of AIID, was called Sandy, wasn't he? Sandy Meadows, I think. Mitchell Ditkoff was a writer, too. Saw his picture recently on the Idea Champions website, along with Joan Apter. Charles Cameron has a site called HipBone. Sophia Collier's 'Soul Rush' is excerpted on this site somewhere...and have you read 'Chronicles of the Red Nighty' yet? What a hoot!
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 07:24:04 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: 'Chronicles of the Red Nighty' - who wrote that?
Message:
You?
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 13:40:34 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: 'Chronicles of the Red Nighty' - authors
Message:
Selene, eb, Bill, Helen, Roger, Gerry, me, and several others who probably prefer to remain anon :).
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 17:26:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: 'Chronicles of the Red Nighty' - is it on EPO?
Message:
Thanks, Katie. Did I miss something?
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 20:50:58 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: 'Chronicles of the Red Nighty' - is it on EPO?
Message:
It's on Roger Drek's website. I can send you a link if you want.
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 23:24:32 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks, Helen. If I can't find it , I'll holler NT
Message:
h
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 12:02:39 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, I hope you are not shocked by content :)! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 19:30:49 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Moi, shocked? Tickled pink maybe. NT
Message:
j
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:36:54 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: a premie artist
Message:
Funny you should mention that, Dave. One of the nine or ten members of our premie coven in Bloomington was a very accomplished artist. I bought an airbrushed B&W portrait of the Faux Guru from him once. Very nice work. I hope he's gone on to more colorful pastures since.

What a nice guy. Twenty years, names evaporate.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:47:41 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It IS worse
Message:
My impressions about m. contribution to opening people up to God, spirituality creativity and love:

He took away any possible relation with god for many, because he contaminated the subject

he weakened creativity in many, by weakening the interaction between the artist and the world.

He dampened intellect in many

Even our ability of love we had to reclaim

He stole our time , our youth and as I found out on the forum, for some of us our children and loved ones

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 07:53:35 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Thank you. TRUE!!! Scott: read this.
Message:
At least I am not the only feeling like that. My youth. So many years... I could have been wonderful without the rat! It was wonderful to me until THE SATGURU LORD OF THE UNIVERSE told us that we needed him and taht something was missing. I was 18 years old!!!!

Even our ability of love we had to reclaim

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:47:40 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: It IS worse
Message:
You're right. I kept up with my art (jazz piano) to some extent during my few years as a premie. But when I joined the ashram (What was I thinking? Oh. I wasn't.), no more music.

Just satsang (much more fun than watching videos, if any current PWK's are lurking), service (mostly making money substitute teaching, and childcare for the satsanging premies), and meditation (OK, but I wish I'd had some real meditation instruction...it would have made all those hours of sitting more fruitful.)

You are right in your premise (an anagram for premies): an artist, or ANY human being, has to be connected to the world. To rely on dogma and belief is to wither and die.

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 22:55:00 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Yes, we could only make holy art
Message:
Yes Gregg and all,

I was a songwriter and musician for many years. Oh, I kept playing music all right, when I could, but only blissful songs about the maha snoozer ki jai. When I have the time, I should put some of those lyrics on geocities just for a laugh.

Maybe even an MP3 or two if I can dig out those old tapes. We made a temporary band in SF called the Beggars (title song 'I am A Beggar') but that's someone else's intellectual property (we did another premie's songs and I sang harmony). Even when I was a committed practitioner, I jokingly called the song, 'Make Me the Dust of Your Feet,' cowgirls in bondage when my roommates played the tape, although it was fun to sing it at the time.

Then I got involved in traditional Tibetan Buddhism 1992, Kalu Rinpoche's lineage, and that was even more of a musical damper than the Maha, if you can believe it. At least with the Maha, you can write your own devotional songs, and guitar and piano playing was allowed (even encouraged, in the satsang days), even in the ashrams. Although I didn't live in the main Tib. Buddhist center, there is NO music, instruments, radios or television allowed (other than the one the Lama watches occasionally, of course, LOL). The only music was Dharma music, which went with the chanting and the rituals. It was certainly nice, and beautiful, but there is very little originality encouraged in traditional Tib. Buddhism, except among those considered to be transmitting something enlightened (i.e. years of training and credentials, although I am glad to see some of Ponlop Rinpoche's students still doing their own fine art, and even displaying it on their main website). All the art is Tanka painting, with divine geometry and everything set out for you. And of course, it must be dharma subjects.

Part of the stifling is the religious co-dependence of thinking that others are so much more 'enlightened' than me that my creative output pales in comparison or simply loses any value. I literally came to believe it was of little value to anyone, including myself.

I did enjoy making tsa tsa's (Buddhist images) with the Gelugpas (for the Dalai Lama's event in May 20, although I can't go), but that is a meditation-in-action type of practice, and again has nothing to do with artistic creativity.

Yes, religious art is only fun if you don't have to do it.

Stifle, gag, barf.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 03:15:11 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: True about formulaicTibetan art, Francesca, but..
Message:
if you'd chosen the Drunken Master (Chogyam Trungpa), you could be doing all sorts of jazzy beatnik shit and still be cool with your guru.

I'm with a breakoff sect from Dilgo Khentse Rinpoche's lineage, an American who's into creative self-expression of all types, so I feel lucky there. Anyway, I'd bet that outside the Tibetan ashram atmosphere in your group there's some creativity happening.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 05:06:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: I've broken off with all of it
Message:
... so I feel much better now. But I know what you mean about Trungpa. His students have all kinds of trips going. And, I'm sorry, but some of the wackier versions of fuzzy logic going. I just read an article from an old Tricycle magazine written by one of his former students that literally torqued my brain as I read it. Kind of cool in a way, but kind of wierd. Yes you've got to be on the outer fringes of that also. There are some lovely folks in Dharmadhatu but then there's those Shambhala Warriors with their blue blazers. Whenever a high Lama comes in the Kagyu lineage to the Bay Area, they sit on the stage in their blue blazers, FACING the audience, JUST like the WPC and the security did back in the early days of Mahrarajism.

I remember in 1973 in Boston the 'brothers' sitting on the stage staring out at the audience which Guru Charanand and others gave satsang. It was a real flashback. And many of the others have such a reverence for the ol' Vidyadhara that it gives me the willies.

You're right about being on the fringes, but as long as you're on the fringes of ANY group you can do whatever you want -- Tibetan Buddhism's nothing special in that regard. So I'm definitely on the outer fringes of my old sangha, although one of my dear friends is a nun with an extremely open mind. (Her brother's a priest in some renegade offshoot of the Catholic Church.)

Dogma stinks. It is the codependent spirituality of closely following a guru that really kills the spirit. At least it does mine. Always a learner but never a follower be.

love, f

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 18:52:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji has done ZIPPO for the world.
Message:
Quite a bit has been pointed out recently about how much in resources is wasted by Maharaji, both the huge sums spent to keep him living his lavish lifestyle, and the money Elan Vital and the other cult organizations waste pretending to be helping people by doing 'propagation' of some useless meditation techniques, which are really a ruse to get people to worship a charlatan 'master.'

Also, despite the question being asked for four years now, not one premie has ever been able to point to even one humanitarian act or deed that Maharaji or one of his cult organizations has ever engaged in, despite his early promises of feeding and clothing the world through DUO, and bringing peace to the world through his 'mission.' [At least Sat Pal professes to be helping earthquake victims in India and doing some other humanitarian things, but not Maharaji.]

With that in mind, I think it's important to put in context the current condition of the world, against the backdrop of the money Maharaji wastes by collecting watches, flying solo in a Gulfstream V, and luxuriating on his $7 million yacht.

Note the following, which I got from the Tides Foundation.

If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would look something like the following.

There would be:
>>57 Asians
>>21 Europeans
>>14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south
>>8 Africans
>>52 would be female 48 would be male
>>70 would be non-white
>>30 would be white
>>70 would be non-Christian
>>30 would be Christian
>>89 would be heterosexual
>>11 would be homosexual
>>6 people would possess 59% of the entire world's wealth and all 6 would be from the United States.
>>80 would live in substandard housing
>>50 would be unable to read
>>50 would suffer from malnutrition
>>1 would be near death ; 1 would be near birth
>>1 (yes, only 1) would have a college education
>>1 would own a computer

The following is also something to ponder...

If you woke up this morning with more health than illness...you are more blessed than the million who will not survive this week.

If you have never experienced the danger of battle, the loneliness of imprisonment, the agony of torture, or the pangs of
starvation...you are ahead of 500 million people in the world.

If you have food in the refrigerator, clothes on your back, a roof verhead and a place to sleep...you are richer than 75% of this world.

If you have money in the bank, in your wallet, and spare change in a dish someplace ... you are among the top 8% of the world's wealthy (how scary is this one!?!?).

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:05:59 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Terrific post, Joe ................ NT
Message:
k
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 02:53:00 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Very interesting, Joe
Message:
Helps to keep it in perspective, doesn't it?
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 00:15:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The top 8% -- scary indeed! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:07:01 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: wow, that is revealing data Joe............nt
Message:
dfjdf
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 05:19:57 (GMT)
From: La-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Propagation surges in Smalltown,USA!!!
Message:
OK, here's another little tidbit concerning intro video programs, since you all liked the last one so much...

It comes from a good friend of mine who lives in the south, and happened about 3 years ago.

Of course, real names have been changed or deleted...(sorry Glen)

This friend of mine relates that about 3 years ago the word was out that maharaji wanted premies to start doing more intro video programs...it was now OK to invite your friends and loved ones to these programs.
The videos had improved, they were now semi-professional quality, and the EV machine was beginning the start of their well-oiled propagation campaign.

Lots of secret and semi-secret meetings were happening all over the country.
'Trainings', held in secret at first, had achieved an almost mythic quality....what went on there?...what was it like?...did M run them, or was it just an instructor?,,,what did you learn?...would I ever get to go to one?....did they really cost $5,000...etc.

People would suddenly get called away to a 'meeting', which they were not supposed to reveal to anyone...sometimes not even to their spouse, and definitely not to anyone else in the community...

Now my friend lives in a tiny town, population of a few thousand; mostly old, country, type folks.
It's about an hour from a major city where the reigning 'Queen Bee', an 'Industrial Strength Church Lady' took residence.

This 'ISCL' was no ordinary church lady.
She was probably a double or triple strength 'ISCL', and had designs on moving up the EV ladder.
But first things first, she had to prove herself on her local turf and the surrounding territories.
This was her big chance to make it, and not much was going to get in her way.
Visions of exalted EV status danced in her heart, and this was her time and her special opportunity.

Meanwhile, the poor premie, hearing that M wants to proceed with intro programs, figures he will start one in this tiny little redneck town.
He and his girlfriend (an aspirant of about 5 years) decide to start intro programs in the local library.
They put up posters around town.
They order some current intro videos.
They borrow a little tape player, along with some 'new age' music cassettes.
They pay $25/nite for the library room.

Now they do this once a week for a few months.
They have heard the prerequisite 'David Smith' story about the premie in Las Vegas who started putting on library programs and in one year only one guy came, but the message saved his life.(supposedly)

He figures, 'what the hell', its coming from my heart, and maharaji seems to indicate that it's time for people to get knowledge...
It doesn't necessarily make sense, but lets give it a heart felt try.

(EDITOR'S NOTE)
What's interesting to me is that this guy doesn't practice knowledge, yet he wants to spread it to others.
He likes maharaji from a long time ago, and wants to do a little something.

Their intro programs go something like this.

1-Arrive 1/2 hour early at library.
2-Pay $25 fee, talk to head librarian, clear room.
3-Wheel TV/VCR into room, cue up video and do 'sound check'
4-Test out portable tape player with 'new age' music.
5-Lower blinds, test lights.
6-Wait for new people to come.(haha)


They do the following weekly routine for about a month or two.
(Not one person shows up, but they bravely forge on.)

The girlfriend turns on the portable tape player with 'new age' music for 10 minutes befoe the program.

The premie, at 7PM sharp (not sure if he was atomic-clock synchronised or not..probably not, at this 'low-level' of programming..) stands up, walks to the front of the room, and announces to the audience (his girlfriend, the aspirant) that he is pleased to present maharaji and his message, and that the video tonight is from...

Now the girlfriend, properly synchronized in her participation, after sitting quietly listening to the introduction, moves to the back of the room and turns off the light.

As the lights go out, the premie emcee pushes the 'play' button on the vcr, and quietly sits in the front row while his girlfriend sits in the back, near the lights and back door.

(EDITOR'S NOTE:)
(In all truthfulness, I cannot verify whether or not they were 'fire extinguisher' trained or not, or whether there even was a fire extinguisher in that particular room or not.

I also do not believe they had been 'David Smith Certified' at that point in their propagation endeavor...as you know, David was touring the country instructing servants on how to give new, uninvited people a free intro video of maharaji if they showed up unexpectedly one night.

Now why they would have to give the unexpected guest an 'intro' video to watch at home, when they were showing 'intro' videos right there that night in that very room, I will never know...I guess Satgurus and Church Ladies work in strange ways, just like God and the GOP...)

Now, in the major city an hour away, where about 6 premies reside, under the reign of 'Queen Bee,ISCL' word had spread that this maverick premie was having 'lone ranger' type programs in this strange little town.

What was a properly synchronized and ambitious Chuch Lady to do?

This cannot be happening in my kingdom,not on my watch!

Oh no, they're not going to run some renegade propagation operation without my special permission and supervision...
What would happen if EV found out?

So, the premie recieves an urgent call one day from 'Church Lady' informing him that all programs will cease until further notice.

The 'Queen Bee' will have to personally attend one of the events and see for herself if they pass inspection and make the grade.

So, they rendevous the next week at the little library in the little redneck town that folds up its sidewalks at 6pm, and nobody ever goes anywhere after dark, much less to the public library to hear about 'maharaji and his message'.

They just can't seem to get why they would need to receive this knowledge....

Program proceeds smoothly, according to plan.
The premie and his aspirant girl friend are on best behaviour, as they put on their special two man show.

'Queen Bee', the reigning church lady from the big city with the major EV connection, sits dispassionately in the room, as premie-ji introduces the video to her.
Aspirant girl friend in the back impeccably turns off music and lights in synchronised fashion.
Video plays impeccably, and the bliss is experienced by all in attendance.
Video ends.
Aspirant girl friend deftly turns lights on, as premie-ji thanks everyone in attendance for coming.
Aspirant girlfriend turns on portable tape player with prerequisite'new age' music.

Mission accomplished!

The Eagle has landed!

However, as they pack up and leave the room,'Queen Bee' informs that they have failed a number of items on the EV checklist.

1-The music was not an EV tape which could have, and SHOULD have been purchased especially for intro programs.
(Enya, was NOT ok, they were informed)

2-The music was not 'faded out', but turned off with a harsh 'click'.
This was to be improved upon, if further programs were desired.

3-The lights did not fade up or down during the program.
Since the library did not have a 'dimmer' switch, could they have one installed?

4-Premie-ji had not spoken one of the 3 or 4 required EV intro messages, and appeared to be slightly 'winging it'....a tad too much personality for the Queen Bee's tastes...

They were politely, but firmly informed that if they wished to continue with these programs, they would have to tighten up the ship a bit, and it would probably be ok.

Queen Bee would attend the next intro program, to check if required improvements had been made.


The Library propagation programs ended that week.

Premie-ji believes that nothing has changed, and things have only gotten more stupid.

Aspirant still aspiring, although thirst for knowledge has diminished.


TRUE STORY....names deleted to protect the innocent.....

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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 04:09:40 (GMT)
From: Queen Bee
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: I've been outed!
Message:
That was too funny!!

Just like it is in my town. Sounds like you've been around recently. Wonder if you are a neighbour even though you say you are an La Ex.

Queen Bee

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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 00:16:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: That made me laugh. Thanks. (nt)
Message:
ha har, ha ha ha ha har.
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 18:42:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: The only sad part is that they
Message:
... don't get it yet.

They think the ISCL x 3 = 'an organizational trip'

They don't realize that that's what 'the man' is all about, and that the goosestepping orders come from on high. Because I am such an anti authoritarian rebel, when I was in DLM (I think it changed to EV after my exit and during my fadeout), I used to convince myself that M was not behind all the nonsense, but that he surrounded himself with idiots.

There was even an expression bandied about the ashrams and communities, which I believe came from M but maybe not:
'He keeps the wet logs closest to the fire.' Another rationale was that it was his kindness to these ISCL's because they needed him or they would fall off the wagon. (Spinter into 1,000 pieces.)

Year after year of nazi impersonators laying that-sh*t-should-be-canned caused me to deicde that M liked these people after all, and that they were synchronized to HIM. Boy, DUH, was I ever right. I mean, logically, how could the same trip come down, almost identically, through so many different types of people, many of them even 'nice' and 'sincere'??? I was so willing to believe; when I sent my letters to M criticizing the organization I thought that 'the organization' wouldn't let them get to M. Ha ha. He didn't want to read what I had to say, no matter what it was.

As long as we want to believe, we will see what we want to see. I hope this turns out to be a major drip for these sweet people.

Thanks, la-ex
ex-lax for the soul

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 18:01:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: An idea -- brilliant if I do say so myself
Message:
How about this?

How about if a group of ex-premies rented a library room of some sort, and advertised a program about 'Maharaji and His Message.'

We could be 'synchronized' in the sense that we could set up the program the way EV says you are supposed to, and it could be advertised around town, posters and everything. Then, an ex-premie could present the program as way to present an objective view of Maharaji. A short EV video could be shown, followed by exerpts from 'The Lord of the Universe.'

Open discussion and questions and answers could ensue. Questions and discussion would be encouraged, and everyone could participate, even premies if they showed up.

The information table would include info on the EV websites and EPO. Special guests could be invited when in town. Maharaji and instructors could be invited to attend and speak if they want to, or it they decline, that could also be mentioned.

Now, I'm sure EV would have a coronary if that happened, and would likely try to shut it down. But that, in itself, would be very helpful, don't you think? EV would probably object to using the EV video, but since no money would be charged, I doubt that would get very far. And we should be careful that this event is being sponsored by individuals, or my MRC or something and that it has nothing to do with Elan Vital or Visions.

What do you guys think? Exes could this all around the country and the world.

I like this idea a lot.

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:05:58 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: An idea -- brilliant if I do say so myself/options
Message:
Joe-nice idea, I must admit.
I can see why you were such a rising star in DLM/EV.
No 'fire extinguisher service' for you...you'd be right up there with the Industrial Ladies in no time, if you were around today...

Seriously, it might be worth considering, and it might be worth it to open a new thread, asking for suggestions and options.

Maybe we could stage one show, have lots of interested people come, and present selected clips and readings from the maha, both past and present.
An ensuing discussion about the ethics and legalities of all this would be stimulating, to say the least.
Of course, M and EV would be welcome.
We could have 'directors' chairs with EV names on them, and of course, a throne for 'you know who', as he talks about 'you know what'...

It could be done in such a way that it could be shown in other communities around the world, especially just before the maha lands the Gulfstream 5 for a little intro program.

Ways to show it?
1)Every community has a free cable access facility, which must show tapes if you submit them.
The more people call in, the more it gets aired.

2)Also, the new Dish 500 system, which is now offering a free upgrade from Dish 100, will have a free 'cable access station', where shows from cable access can be shown all over the world.
They even pay you a little bit to show it, if it's good.

BTW, Dish is where the Maha projects the divine message, so it would make sense to set up a rival broadcast.

3)Also, streaming web video, is an option.

It might be worth considering taping a 'press conference' type gathering, perhaps after a Latvian gathering, when some of the people might be around.
Although it would take a bit of planning, the people and equipment are here on EPO.
The result would be a modern tape that could be shown anywhere in the world.
It would also stimulate interest in the EPO site.

Think it's worth talking about?

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 23:05:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Good ideas, but
Message:
I like just keeping it simple. There are very few people who even know Maharaji exists, and far fewer who care. It's just premies and (some) ex-premies and those unfortunate aspirants who are the target audience.

So, an hour intro program could be set up, and maybe leaflets could be distributed at intro events, plus some additional advertising, perhaps.

Then show an EV video (or portion thereof) and part of LOTU. Then have open discussion, question and answers, and premies would be allowed to attend and speak on behalf of their Master, but of course they never would out of fear of displeasing him, and actually giving 'satsang' which is now banned.

I think it would be fun.

What city to we pick first.

Anybody have a good intro video that we could use?

I would recommend on the EPO information table, we have printouts from the website, and a copy of the MRC letter. It would be cheap and easy.

The biggest thing would be that it would totally freak out Elan Vital and Maharaji. Just the idea of there being presentations about Maharaji that are not COMPLETELY synchronized, COMPLETELY in his control, would make Maharaji shit his pants.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:13:26 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: How about SF,after Latvian night?...nt
Message:
vv
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Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 08:01:52 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: How about SF,after Latvian night?...Yeah right
Message:
It all sounds so goddam exciting la-ex. Are you volunteering? Because I sure ain't. I'll be partying with the rest of the lost souls in the gardens of good and evil.

I hope you guys were joking because, if you weren't, I sure as hell am on the wrong forum - out of the frying pan and into the fire. Count me out for any sort of group synchronized participation - period. I'm a card carrying anarchist.

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 02:17:57 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Joe
Subject: Sign me up for the fire extinguisher service
Message:
yes! let's do it!

we could legally excerpt some of the Visions videos.

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 22:56:30 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: is that so everyone can get 'hosed'??? n/t
Message:
maha silly
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:11:28 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Sign me up for fire extinguisher service/Hold on..
Message:
just a minute there, Mr.eDrek.

1)Have you had the proper training?

2)Are you really in that place?

3)Are you totally synchronized, or just partially?

4)Do you know how to access the 'atomic clock'?

5)Do you have any previous 'fire extinguisher service'?

I know your heart's in the right place, but we DO have to go according to EV protocol.

After all, we're not talking about the TRAC Center, you know...

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 04:14:51 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: la-ex
Subject: dmnit, that's exactly how EV totalitarians are
Message:
I've been subjected to that kind of crap before only a few times in my life and that was when I was a premie and it was at the hands of the EV/DLM Elite units.

Goddamn!

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 19:31:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: brilliant !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
That's a great idea. Regarding EV shutting it down, I think they would have a hard time doing that, the only thing they might be able to do is stop the showing of an EV tape, maybe not even that, and it would look bad if they tried.

If only excerpts from EV videos were shown, they might not be able to do anything about it.

Maybe include showing the techniques for FREE.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:22:01 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: brilliant !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Now yer talking! Or making a video with historic clips, present situation, intervieuw fragments with premies and exes and a brief knowledge session. Something of 20 - 30 minutes so it could be shown on TV or on high speed internet.
Could this be a graduate project of some university, to garantee a certain quality and endorsement!
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 23:44:37 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: brilliant !!!!!!!!!!!!!/video project options
Message:
Bob-this could easily be done with a little time by people who already post on EPO.

It could definitely be broadcast quality, and done with a little bit of money and some time by a few people I know...

Thanks for the brainstorming...

Other ideas to think about, anyone?

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:17:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: La-ex
Subject: just like God, the GOP and all other totalitarians
Message:
I wish you would let me call you Ex-lax, dispeller of cult BS. I just love your dry wit.

I had a hunch that it had been as bad as you describe it because I went back at the beginning of 1999 when perestroika and glasnost made me think that there was hope. The bad old ISCL nazi nanny days of the nineties where talked about only by the ''Lone Rangers'' who were still smarting under the whip of the local ISCLs.

The fallacy about the current glasnost is that it will be the final fix-it for what is increasingly obvious a totalitarian religion. (Remember when YKW and Knowledge were NOT a religion?) The Lone Ranger hippie-hindu premies in San Francisco have yet to have their final rude awakening as there are several of them and they stick together. The ISCLs pussyfoot around them.

And two of the Lone Rangers whom I helped to get onto the internet are now reading this Forum.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 14:36:09 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: just like God, the GOP and all other totalitarians
Message:
Pat, La-Ex, how true, that's exactly how it was when all those trainings and synchronization begun. Now I see the totalitarism and lack of genuine love, true lone rangers were and are probably not allowed.
Sad indeed, really sad.
And why the secrecy surrownding the trainings I can't believe at the time I never questioned it, it makes me sick.
Mercedes
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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 04:38:51 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: from the other side of the road
Message:
it's easy to see it as cult Mercedes, and yes, it's sickening because he made us surrender a part of us so, so private.
Segui viniendo porque el expresarse ayuda muchisimo, no? Nuevas ideas encima de las viejas; ya ganamos. ;)

Te deseo lo mejor.

sb/I

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 14:56:10 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: 'Visions of exalted EV status danced in her heart'
Message:
La-Ex, I absolutely love your two installments of The Church Lady Chronicals (or should that be The Chronic Church Ladies). I have to keep reminding myself this is NOT a parody but real life EV. Perhaps you and Mssr Conlon can collaborate on the screenplay with Mercedes as technical advisor.

This whole scenario brings to mind those Japanese soldiers who, after WW2 ended, lived disciplined regimines for decades on remote islands believing the war was still on.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 19:59:34 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji's Mid-life Crisis?
Message:
Seems like when you get into your mid to late forties, most guys (cant speak for the ladies) start to yearn for the power and excitement of their youth. With most of us it manifests as an unhealthy (!) interest in women half our age, with maharaji it (also) seems to be the desire to return to God-status. Well that was one of my strongest impressions from the miami program, from reports of the reinstatement of darshan at amaroo and from the unusual step of having a few premies get up to the mike and give warm-up satsang in miami (mostly to do with 'Participation' and 'Resources') One local premie, bless his heart, got a bit carried away and went on about 'doing service', then realised his faux pas and tried to correct it, but it came out as 'participating in service'!.

Before the EV monitors get all in a flap, I didn't 'sneak into' the event, I was there quite legitimately working as a Union member as is required by the Convention Center contract. So I was doing 'service' and getting paid(howdya like them apples?). A well-meaning premie friend got me a seat pass (second row from front, no less) so while all my Union brothers were asked to spend the time the event was in session in the breakroom, on the clock, (coffee and pizza provided, courtesy EV) I sat my ass down and figured I'd see if the ole magic was still there.

It was exactly a year to the day since I'd seen m. last up close. Ironically in the same room as they had the aspirant meeting this time round. He seemed to look much older somehow, and tired. I saw wrinkles and gray hair I hadn't noticed a year ago, perhaps because then I was still looking through the misty eyes of a devotee. Yesterday he just looked like a tired, middle-aged guy trying to pump new life into an old act. Think of all the once-big stars like Tony Bennet and Englebert Humperdink, reduced to doing one-horse cabaret clubs and life insurance commercials, and you get the picture.

Sounded like he was determined to go out fighting though - much of the emphasis of the event was centered around him being 'the Master' and the knowledge being 'his Knowledge'. Come to think of it, that was THE only emphasis of the message this time round. They showed a clip from one of the Training meetings in which he came across really heavy, almost tyrannical, about how this was HIS knowledge and those present were damned fortunate to be ALLOWED to tell people about it. Yikes, I could sense a lot of uncomfortable shuffling going on around me. One of the most memorable lines for me was this:

'Don't ever question the purity of this knowledge, don't ever question the purity of this experience and DO NOT...EVER... question the purity of the Master' (emphasis real).

As he said that last bit, I just pictured him after the event, lighting up a cig and sipping his brandy!:) But it was scary the way he is now trying to bully the remaining devotees, and newcomers, into blind obediance once more.

All in all though, the event was pretty lacklustre. There were 3,250 people there, a much-reduced Visions sales area and really not much energy. I've been to many, many events in Miami and this one measured pretty low on the richter scale so far as the excitement and energy of the premies went. By the time Visions were packing up on the last day, I could see that most of the stock had gone unsold - usually you cant get near the sales tables for the crowds, not this time. People just weren't buying it - in more than one sense of the term!

So what about behind the scenes? Well not much has changed there. Security is still ludicrous. It is at the same time intense and inept. I got in no problem - the security goons at the service entrance weren't really on the ball for sniffing out ex's. I just told them I was with the union and got a pass. They didn't even ask for my Union i.d. Funny thing was, all the premies were stuck waiting outside for an hour because the 'list' didnt turn up:)

Smart Cards were required by everyone doing service. They had a card reader at the security table near the entrance and premies had to wave the card near it. It stored their details for download later. There was a little box attached which gave either a green light or a red light. I'm not kidding. I asked one of the goons what that was all about (they didnt know I was a premie too) and they said it responded to 'certain information' stored on the smart chip. Scary as fuck, I thought.
There was a point friday night when I was left completely alone in the backstage area for about 20 minutes. Right there were the 2 SmartCard readers and data storage box, just sitting there,....Now if I'd been a really militant kinda ex, I could have plugged my laptop into the RS232 port and downloaded all the software and personal info on the premies doing service. Doesn't the law require that entities storing our personal data take 'reasonable care' to prevent its misuse? Anyway I was there in a professional capacity and I have no inclination toward dishonest behaviour so I left it alone. Like I said, they're inept.

Set-up wise things haven't changed in 20 years - it still takes forever for them to get thier act together - I joked with one of the security goons about how amazing it was that (you guys) can cram 6 hours work into 15. He didnt get it. But that's what it was essentially. A show set which would take a normal production team 6 hours to put together took that lot 15. They kept changing their minds about stuff, things didn't arrive on time and get this - they gathered in a circle every 2 hours and had a meeting, to 'share' what progress was being made and why they were so far behind schedule.

Well that's about all there was to it. I got some dirty looks from some premies that knew me, especially Productions guys, which pretty much tells me who is reading the forum! OK fellas, I'll spare you the embarrassment of being 'busted' disobeying maharaji's agya not to read here, since most of you were polite at least. But please, just take the opportunity while you're here to put your opinions aside and think for a moment....not everything in life is as it appears to be. We all have a path in life, mine just happens to have taken a different turn recently. That doesn't make me a bad person, just someone with a different agenda, capiche?.

Can't think of anything else to write just now, anyone got any questions, anything I haven't covered, fire away.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 16:37:54 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Good one Bazza.
Message:
I forgive you.

I must say you are sounding totally different. well, I haven't been reading here for a while, so there you go.

Be good.

salam

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:16:42 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: whata about the darshan tunnel?
Message:
were you there for that? did it happen?
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:59:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: damn! you blew yer chance you shoulda done it
Message:
there it was, set up for you by grace. you shoulda done the data sap.
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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 22:34:26 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: DO NOT...EVER...question the purity of the Master
Message:
Hi Bazza,

Thanks for that great report.

When I read the statement about questioning him, I took that as a direct warning about premies looking at this site. Who else is questioning his purity with as much scrutiny as us--the forum and the EPO site itself? He's threatened, mad, and wants more dough!

I was also glad to hear that Visions sales were down. Good. Less for the goob.

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:56:37 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Maharaji is right, you know
Message:
'DO NOT EVER question the purity of the Master'

He's right you know. It's beyond question that he's an idiotic little fart who's about as pure as a septic tank.

What a pratt. He's laughable, coming out with that kind of rhetoric. As his audience diminishes he'll be yelling ever louder to the premies. Eventually they too will tire of him and see through his game and he'll be unable to control anyone but the most devout Maharaji fans.

He should have quit while he was ahead.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 00:51:19 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: DO NOT...EVER...question the purity of the Master
Message:
Thamks again Bazza for that report.
Isn't your position interesting?
You might be on a 'bongo' list, but they would have to let you in anyway, as you were there on official union busines.
It's really quite funny.

This 'Purity' quote is priceless,IMO, and should definitely be put up in large quotes on the EPO home page.
Of course, that quote would be the heading for the section on all of m's drug/alcohol/sex/money scandals.

The juxtaposition of the two, especially the command like warning, would really tell people a lot..

Like, is this a guy I REALLY need to be following?
(Or my kids?)

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 07:06:15 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Premies..Just what is Purity?I'd like to know....
Message:
This is a serious question for premies.

When maharaji says 'Never doubt the purity of the Master!', supposedly in a 'masterly' overtone, what does he actually mean?

Seriously, can anyone (maybe Christian) tell me exactly what you think he means by that statement?

is he pure?
in what sense?
what does 'pure' mean?
why should we never 'doubt' that purity?
and what would happen to someone if they did 'doubt' his purity?

The reason I ask is this:

I sincerely doubt that he is pure, in any sense.

So what's the harm in that?
Has that doubt harmed me in some way?
It's really just the plain truth, isn't it?

Why would he ever say something so silly, when we all know it's simply not true.

Bad move, maharaji, bad move indeed...

La-ex

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:27:28 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Premies..Just what is Purity?I'd like to know....
Message:
Hi, la. All I can tell you is that yes I do believe that Maharaji is pure.

I guess the best way I can explain it is that Maharaji's many affects on me in my life has always been a result of his purity. However I don't feel I can 'explain' his purity any more than I can 'explain' Maharaji or Knowledge. I can only say that is my experience.

The thought of life without listening to Maharaji, practicing Knowledge and involvement with his work is a very depressing thought. And really the most depressing thing about it would be to feel removed from that Grace of that incredible purity.

If Maharaji lives a lifestyle far removed from any concept of asceticism, abstinence and poverty -- and maybe he does -- well, to be honest this is wonderful reminder to me that not only can I enjoy the fact I have a Guru that doesn't place judgements on my personal choice of lifestyle, but my Guru reminds me that *I* should not judge others so easily. For instance, I used to be a pothead. But guess what, before and after being a pothead, I rejected any old or potential lovers that smoked pot. I used to drink until I got drunk and stupid and felt assinine; and when I quit drinking I rejected those who drink; and so on. I'll tell you this -- and I'm not shitting you, it's the truth -- it is because I believe that Maharaji probably *does* do many of the things I see posted on this website that I have recently been inspired to realize that I have been too judgmental of others and was rejecting people before I even knew them. Now for the first time in many, many years I am beginning to make friends with people who smoke pot sometimes, and drink. Doesn't mean I will start smoking pot or drinking again (because for me, I'm much happier abstaining), but it does mean I am becoming a less judgmental person.

I can't tell you what a shock it was when I realized that I have, in my own way, (due to what I have explained above), been just like a 'church lady' -- and didn't even realize it!!! It is you all and Maharaji I have to thank that I am opening up now and shedding such social limitations.

If I didn't trust and realize his purity, I honestly cannot imagine that I could have come to this same awakening; it required my trust of his purity.

For me, it is soooo beautiful.

Cheers

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 16:24:55 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Premies..Just what is Purity?I'd like to know....
Message:
Thanks for responding, Christian.
And I do, as always, credit you for posting on EPO, as a premie.

A couple of thoughts on recent posts:

1-Isn't it nice that you can come here and grow a bit by shedding some of those 'guru concepts'?
You can voice your doubts and objections, as well as your pro-maharaji feelings as well.
Why do you think maharaji forbids a similar forum such as this one on his site?
Is he afraid of the possible discussions that might take place there?
If you are growing by being here,wouldn't others?
Shouldn't you tell him you are growing by dialoging with people on EPO?
Also, are you disobeying maharaji by even being here?
And, doesn't it seem odd that you are disobeying maharaji by being here, and yet you clearly state you are growing by being here?
Does that jive with his 'clarity' in your life'

2-When you state how depressing it is to envision a life without maharaji, it causes me to think a bit.
I say this sincerely, not critically, but have you ever given thought to the idea that maharaji and knowledge might be an addiction for you, similar to the pot and alcohol consumption you mentioned?

Picture someone you know making your statement about some other teacher or guru.
Would that seem like a happy, independent and free person who has internalized a teaching and lives it on their own, or a person who is dependent on their guru for their clarity and happiness, and would be very depressed without their guru.

3-When you depend so much on maharaji for clarity, wisdom and direction in your life, it causes me to wonder.
Shouldn't YOU be the fountain of such treasures for YOU?

How do you know he is always clear?

Example:
In my life, I gave up an excellent career in teaching (7 years at the time) to go work on the DECA plane, after being told every night for months that the plane project would help maharaji save the world.
The plane was the missing piece to the puzzle.
Maharaji was the absolute Lord, waiting on the premies to help bring the kiongdom of heaven on Earth.
(As you know, these are not exaggerations-this was standard fare for satsang for years.)

I went to DECA, hated it(but stayed,because of my commitment and also because I thought there must be something that I wasn't getting yet, because I wasn't feeling any grace in being there), and 2 years later, could not get back into the school system I quit to work on the plane.

I really resented that, because the time at DECA was absolutely the worst time in my life.

I now find out(through networking with people who ran the project, that I found at EPO) that by the time I arrived at DECA, maharaji had already decided that he would never use the 707 we slaved over for more than a few years at best.
He was already looking at smaller, more efficient planes.

He was having affairs and drinking heavily at that point, according to at least a half dozen people I know, who were there with him at that time.
Dettmers says maharaji was a lost man at that point, and he told him so.
Do you think maharaji was 'clear' then?
His direction definitely affected my life, but could it be that he was lost, confused and overwhelmed with the situation?

So can you see how maharaji's ever-present, all-knowing 'clarity' might not be all you think it is?

I think you could find consistent direction, clarity and purpose by simply attending a church or temple that you can relate to every week, and keep your own power for yourself, instead of giving it to 'you know who'.

Thanks for listening,
As always, a plesure talking to you,

La-ex

PS: Just curious, since you didn't answer this in a previous post.
Seriously, who is your first choice for the next 'master', when maharaji is gone for one reason or another.
It could be anyone you know...it could even be a public figure who is not a premie now...anyone, really...
And when that person assumed the reigns so to speak, would they be your next source of clarity and wisdom?
Would it be depressing if they left you, or they weren't in your life at some point?

Bye...

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 05:33:23 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Premies..Just what is Purity?I'd like to know....
Message:
Hi, la. Oh dear, as you know I tend to be wordy, so we'll see how far I make it through your comments (which are usually fun to answer)...

'1-Isn't it nice that you can come here...' Yes, it is nice. =)

'Why do you think Maharaji forbids a similar forum such as this one on his site?'

That's the million-dollar question to me, la. I do not know the answer to that one, but believe me if I ever get the chance to ask him in actual back and forth conversation, I will!!

'If you are growing by being here,wouldn't others?'

Well, that's a pretty subjective question, la, and I can only give a subjective answer which is: yes, I do think so. In fact I think it's a 'capitol idea, Simpson!' =)

'Shouldn't you tell him you are growing by dialoging with people on EPO?'

He knows some premies dialogue here. I'm not a 'PAM' so my name would doubtfully be significant to him; however I have written him personally to say that my feeling is that propagation in the U.S. will be forever slow until and unless 'all' the premies truly feel that 'free speech' is A-okay, which obviously they do not. Notice I say 'they.' I do feel it is okay, otherwise I wouldn't feel comfortable posting here; and I do.

'Also, are you disobeying maharaji by even being here?
And, doesn't it seem odd that you are disobeying maharaji by being here, and yet you clearly state you are growing by being here? Does that jive with his 'clarity' in your life''

The only time I ever has vows of obedience with anything to do with Maharaji was 25 years ago when I lived in the ashram under the monastic-style vows of 'chastity, poverty and obedience.' Since leaving the ashram I have never felt bound to any of those vows again -- ever. Besides that, however, I would like to point out that I am not aware of even one instance where Maharaji has made a statement which I would construe to mean that he wishes I would not post here. (Elan Vital definitely does not want me to post here, but we're talking about Maharaji, not EV. It's not Maharaji I have problems with, but EV. I have an argument with Maharaji in that he endorses the way EV does things in English-speaking countries.)

2-Haha, no, Maharaji is not an addiction for me. Addictions grab me and hold onto me without my having to make an effort; I make a free-will determined effort every day with Maharaji and Knowledge. I have experienced 5 or 7 years entirely away from even thinking about Maharaji and Knowledge (pre-90s), and at the time I 'left' it took no effort to leave (as does an addiction).

And well, I do live it on my own really, la. I watch a couple or three videos a week and I practice every day, contribute something minimum monthly, have exceedingly little contact with other premies and have not seen Maharaji in person for over a year -- and in fact did not 'suffer' for not getting to go to Amaroo or Miami. I am feeling very satisfied these days, more than ever before. I love it -- and I give Maharaji credit for guiding me in this direction, as a matter of fact (EV notwithstanding).

The fountain IS in me, which as Maharaji has directed my understanding and attention again and again. Ironic and paradoxical as it sounds. I grew up feeling like a needy and desperate person. These words no longer describe my condition, and it is Maharaji's Grace I have to thank for that.

I do not know that Maharaji is always clear. As a matter of fact, I know that he is *not* always clear -- especially since he has on numerous occasions over the past ten years stated at events that he is not always clear. Anyone listening to him regularly knows this. It makes total sense to me and I do not doubt it. (Note: I am not considering the purity of the Master or Guru to be synonymous with Maharaji's clarity as an individual.)

I am very sorry to hear of your disappointing experience at DECA. Had I been a personal friend of yours at the time that was going on and had you asked my advice I would have told you what I have always felt as far back as I can remember, which is not to try to make yourself stay anywhere you don't really feel right about, no matter how 'lofty' others might consider your position. I would have said to follow that 'enjoyment' meter inside of you like a geiger counter and get the heck out of the place where you are feeling miserable. I enjoyed being very active in my local community for many years and wore many hats, but when I began to stop enjoying it, guess what, I resigned -- and resigned -- and resigned. (Because I have a lot of things to resign from.) And I do not regret my past activities, because I enjoyed them. And I do not regret resigning, because I had ceased to enjoy them. So I am more fortunate than you. Sorry.

I'm also sorry you listened to the people that made you to think you were saving the world by doing that particular service. I learned a long time ago, probably the first week I ever came to learn about Maharaji, that many premies were full of bologny (IMO) and have never felt obligated to believe any 'trip' laid on me. I felt always quite comfortable about 'separating the wheat from the chaffe' as we used to always say in the seventies. Again, not because I know everything. I don't. But I just following what I feel. Like for instance I feel like posting here, it feels good to me. If it ever stops feeling good to me, I will stop posting here. Like that...see?

What?! You want me to go to a church or temple? Ack...!!! Those places (nearly all of them if not all) give me the willies. They make Elan Vital look like a ride in the park. Thanks but no thanks. I feel best just living my own life as I see fit. Look: I am the black sheep of a black sheep in my family. It's in my genes. I don't go for that kind of stuff.

I didn't see the sentence where you asked who I would choose as the next Master. I have thought about this, and here is my honest answer: I don't care who it is as long as s/he can make me feel the way Maharaji makes me feel when I listen to him. When s/he does that (assuming Maharaji goes before I do), this is how I will know s/he is the Living Master. There are certain experiences I have had only listening to Maharaji which are uplifting in a manner that can at times be phenomenal. When I feel that, I will know. Until that happens, I will not now. It could be anyone. I have no idea who.

Well, it's past my bedtime. And a pleasure 'talking' with you again too.

TTYL (type to ya later),
Christian Star

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 13:39:29 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: you are a living master
Message:
The way it works is simple: If you open your eyes life teaches you a good lesson everyday, without a guru to tell you what to do, when to meditate and so forth.

Wake up. He took us for a ride. I feel more free and peaceful than ever!! Trust us. We know what it feels to let go of the illusion taht Lard is special. He ain't. He is an ignorant being. Read this; just like the Catholic Church, talking about dirtyness instead of celebrating life. He repeats some good stuff he picked somewhere but the man is lost and evil minded.
What you feel for him is bondage and you don't need him to enjoy your life.

Read this, from above.
Date: Thurs, May 17, 2001 at 11:49:56
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Similar Experience
Message:
I have a dear friend who is a premie. I really care about her, but now that I am no longer a premie, she is almost afraid of me. It is so strange. I keep telling her that I'm still me, I haven't changed -- I'm still the same person she always knew and I'm just recognizing the reality that knowledge never worked for me.
But her life is a complete mess. She takes several kinds of drugs to help her deal with depression and anxiety. She is constantly trying to clean and purify herself through her diet, and yet she is sick all the time. She spends money going to see m that she doesn't have. Her kids think she's nuts. It's almost like her life is such a mess that she holds on to m for fear that it would be even worse.

I don't know what to say to her. All I can do is try to be her friend and let her know I'm here for her. It's very sad, really, because I think being a premie just makes her life so much worse. It adds pressure to 'practice,' it costs her money she doesn't have, and she's holding on to something that is no help at all.

This is what is happening to most premies: Their mind is sick and taht makes their body sick as well. can you see?

Nop. You're wrong. Open up. Reclaim your freedom!

SB, ex-aspirant contact. I know how the trick works. care to ask?

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 15:59:42 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Premies..Just what is Purity?I'd like to know....
Message:
Christian- thanks for taking the time to answer.
I felt that most of your answers were honest and heart felt.

However,one thing I will take exception with:

As far as my believing people who said I would save the world by going to DECA.(and your suggestion that maybe I should have been more discerning in who I listened to you.)

Let's get real here.

It was Maharaji who was saying that.
You know that.

How many times did he say that ONLY Guru Maharaji would save the world?
If HE said to do something, you did it.(Agya)
(Will you come when he calls? Will you even know when he's calling?)

It was HIM who said those things.
We all know that no instructor would make up quotes and attribute them to maharaji.
If they did, they would be gone instantly.

This is the thing that makes so many people angry with maharaji.
He continually denies doing or saying these things.They are at first denied,but then if you can prove them, they are then attributed to some premie or indian mahatma or ev personnel.

maharaji never takes responsibility for his errors, his false prophecies, weird advice, or the negative and harmful impact he has had on people's lives.

When people bring up these very real issues, he marginalises them, by saying they are weird, a tiny minority,unhappy people, people who have an axe to grind etc.

He needs to do better than that.
However, he is a very insecure and frightened man, once he steps down off the throne/stage, and I would be shocked if he ever gets real and and accountable.

(not a lecture against you, but about 'you know who')

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 05:29:23 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Christian Star
Subject: Growing Up
Message:
I made this point long ago, but it's worth repeating. Most of received knowledge when we were very young (I was 20) and hadn't gone through many of life's experiences. Consequently, when we did mature a little, we mistakenly attributed the wisdom acquired by simply growing up to knowledge and Maharaji.

Becoming less judgemental of others' faults is a very good example of something that most people learn in the normal process of growing older. It has nothing to do with practising meditation or some invisible friend called grace.

Christian, you say that the thought of life without Maharaji is depressing. Can't you see that this fear prevents you from thinking clearly about the issues? I too was afraid two and a half years ago when I first allowed myself to think that Maharaji did not deserve the high regard I held him in. But after a couple of weeks, I had to admit that I had no evidence he was behind any of my experiences, and after that my 25 years of cult belief quickly collapsed.

And guess what, it wasn't depressing, it was a tremendous release, and although there has been some sadness and regret, and a little anger, the dominant emotion has been joy and exhiliaration.

So, Christian, let go of your fears, and join us in freedom!

John.

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 07:44:06 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: A really nice polite post, John
Message:
And full of common sense and middle-age wisdom. But - what with the UFOs and the sermon about his ''experience'' and Rawat's ''purity'' (especially his last sentence: 'It's soooo beautiful'') I think our legs are being pulled. I wonder if Jim has come back from his vacation and is having us on by posing as a looser. That's a joke but the thought did cross my mind.
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 20:23:37 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You're on to something with the identity of this
Message:

Starfucker I reckon .

That 'Naw ' below rings a bell .

Whoever he is , the guy on planet tharg who bolted his head together should be sacked for slacking on the job .

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 22:38:12 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Star-wanking navel gazer, Bin
Message:
But I'm a suspicious old fag. I've stopped attacking trolls since I was accused of paranoia but..... And look how I tore into you for which I will always be sorry now that I know who you are and enjoy you posts so much. Cheers, china.
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 19:00:53 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: ='pay no attention 2 that man behind curtain'(nt)
Message:
ozmosis
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:51:13 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: NO QUESTION...Rawat,...you're pure...bullshit.
Message:
'A show set which would take a normal production team 6 hours to put together took that lot 15. They kept changing their minds about stuff, things didn't arrive on time and get this - they gathered in a circle every 2 hours and had a meeting, to 'share' what progress was being made and why they were so far behind schedule.'

This reminds me of working on setting up a program where 'the Speaker' was going to talk. A crazed honcho stopped everyone from working, had everyone sit down, and yelled at us volunteers about being behind schedule. I thought he was nuts, but what I didn't realize is that this pissiness flowed down from the top, from 'You Know Who' (aka 'the Master' and 'He who says He's only an ordinary guy, tee hee'). I think he stopped us from working for about 15 minutes. After his rant, we just went back to working at the same rate. We completed on time, so he was obviously wrong.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 22:09:23 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: am reminded of a promo soundbite
Message:
Well I didn't hear it, am watching basketball with the sound OFF since I can't stand those announcers.
A bit came up on break:
why face your worst fears when someone else will do it for you? haha better you than me Bazza. I was thinking if M ever came here again which he won't my entire family will be called in for the union call. That bit about the SmartCard data was priceless though I do feel for the poor premie who was supposed to be charged with it's integrity and safety, after the EV monitors read your post he/she will hear about it I'm sure.

hmm less than 4000 at the convention center? pretty sluggish attendance.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:57:59 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Excellent report Bazza - some questions
Message:
Of course, DO NOT...EVER... question the purity of the Master, if you ever question his purity at all, the game is over - case closed - finito. It is impossible to reconcile all that Prem Pal is and has done with the phrase purity of the Master. As an old days veteran said after seeing M for the first time in 20 years he is the complete manifestation of himself. And that manifestation is completely not anywhere close to purity of the Master.

Thanks for the buzz Bazz. Any more details are interesting for enquiring minds (how many people there, slo-mo poetry videos, singing Rawats, etc.).

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:01:49 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: The Singing Rawats?
Message:
Blimey what an image that conjures up Richard!

Well like I said the attendance was 3,250 or thereabouts. I have a copy of the seating plan still and thats how many seats there were available in the hall. There were in fact less than that present because some seats were empty.

I saw some of the videos during rehearsals but couldn't go the distance on the first day of the event when they showed them for nearly 3 hours. Instead I hung out on the loading dock with my Union buddies. During the intermission Raja Ji and a few honchos came out onto the dock for a smoke but kept their distance from us. The security goons were very twitchy about us being there but didn't say anything to us.

The latest batch of videos are produced by Wahadamar Productions, which as you know consists of the Rawat brats Waddy (Premlata) and Amar. There is this big, slow spinning 'Wahadamar' logo which starts them off. It spins I think 6 times before fading out, just in case you're in any doubt who's making the video. A heard some grumblings among the tekkie faithful that these kids were totally into their ego about their creative efforts, nudging out some of the old timers in the process.

The few I watched were dreadful. One had a background of floating clouds, alternating with rushes blowing in the wind etc, and m's face fading in and out over the top, Enya-type music in the background. Another had marolyn standing in a garden against a soft-focus woodland background, leaning on a chair with a big fake smile and reading from a teleprompt (you can see her eyes scanning), telling us all how grateful we should be to have such a wonderful Master....

Interesting sidebar to that...the kids, Waddy, Amar and Daya made a video appearance in which they essentially told the world they were 100% behind their old man blah blah blah. I asked a premie I knew where Hansi was in all this. He said Hansi doesn't want anything to do with it, and is basically the black sheep of the family.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 02:37:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Good for Hansi. I always wondered about him.
Message:
Excellent. The oldest son usually challenges the father's authority (Oedipus complex) and I was hoping he would.
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:41:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: the black sheep of the family
Message:
Does not seem above reaping the bennies of being in the family , if the pickup line story below is true and I think it must be.

as for the rest it sounds like a typical techie crew watching the show stuff, watching the talent (ahem)
especially the loading dock anecdote.

Not that I am defending any of em but .. well.. it just is typical which makes them all the more laughable imo, considering they are in the G-o-d biz.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:28:29 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Bazza
Subject: Maharaji's Mid-life Crisis?
Message:
Bazza:

Thank you for that information. It's truely scary. He wants the premies to idolize him, put him on a pedestal above all criticism, and to be paranoid about even thinking about doubting him. Those were two of Jim Jones's favorite techniques, and we know where that led.

As a premie, I always hated comparisons of Maharaji's trip with The Peoples Temple. I thougth the comparisons were unfair. But the more I read about Jonestown, the more disturbing the similarities are.

I still doubt that M. would ever do anything like suicide-murder. He likes his hedonistic lifestyle, and dead premies doen't send checks. But he is cultivating the same slavish devotion. Where IS it going to lead?

''Don't ever question the purity of this knowledge, don't ever question the purity of this experience and DO NOT...EVER... question the purity of the Master'' (emphasis real).

I can't read Maharaji's mind, and I can relate to premies who believe he would never do anything like Jonestown. But it's important to remember, folks, that the people who died in Jonestown thought the same thing about Jim Jones. And they were sadly mistaken.

When you read about the victims of Jonestown, many of them sounded like very nice people, not unlike many of the premies I know. Being nice didn't save them from being killed, because they IDOLIZED their Master and were PARANOID about considering any criticism of him. Premies, be careful.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 23:15:39 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Chuck Sprague
Subject: Dead Premies don't send cheques .
Message:

I agree , Rawat isn't an outsider like Jones , he's an infiltrator who wants to play with the big boys money wise .

I'll allow him his Perf. M . delusions , thats why he can't give it up , retire , & take up growing tomatoes .

If he persists in his megalomania , he's fucked .

Fewer & fewer followers in the West , & he can hardly base himself back in India again , what with his big brother being God , an ex Cabinet Minister , & having won a lawsuit against him to boot.

On the other hand , he's 'old & bold' now : gotta keep the show on the road ...what a trouper.

Like you I haven't a clue where all this will end up , but I hope that Rawat gets fucked rather than people he's conned .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:04:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Thanks for the report
Message:
As far as I know, these are public events, aren't they? But sort of like any private establishment, 'they have the right to refuse service' (pun intended) to anyone. So you really didn't sneak in. They were just too inept to keep you out!

I'm glad to know that I probably won't be allowed in any more programs. I'd be more likely to be demonstrating in front of one, anyway. Maybe we could scare him away from any programs he might ever do in SF. We could have picket signs and it would be all over the papers. So stay away maha!

His speech was scary, and I'm glad you confirmed what I've known all along. The tiger didn't change his stripes.

--f

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:59:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Thanks, Bazza. That was a terrific report! NT
Message:
j
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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 20:25:52 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Bazza,you're an honest man. Robin Hood would have
Message:
taken that opportunity and grabbed that info, and oh boy, what a field day that would have been!

Nice description of things in Miami.

No questions now, but I do have to laugh at the 'Never queston the purity of the Master'...
Now that's a good one, and it really tell us something, doesn't it?

That clip should be put on EPO somewhere, to show new people how he tells people not to question him....

If you have anything to add, I'm sure we'd all like to hear...

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 15:28:38 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Happy mother's day! NT
Message:
maharaji is not a subsitute for mother's love.
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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 16:54:33 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphie'scafe.com
To: SB
Subject: OK, let's go there
Message:
An invitation to all of you to tell us stories about your Mother and her reaction to your incessant satsang. Were you disinherited or deprogrammed, or did she love you unconditionally whether or not she understood you? Did she ever actually receive Knowledge? Were you with her when she died?

And how many of you are Mothers yourself? Do your kids know that you were a cult member? How has your involvement with the cult affected your parenting style? Are your children okay? Tell us about them. Not necessarily off-topic!

Love,
Babs, a daughter and a mother

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 16:02:33 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: OK, let's go there
Message:
This is so sweet, reading everyone's reminiscences about their mothers and families.

My mother is a born-again Christian and so when I became a raving lunatic premie in the early 70s I felt it was my duty to help my mother to see clearly that the Lord was back on the planet and she was missing the point reading a dead, archaic scripture when he'd already come back! She has some letters which I wrote to her back then, which I am going to ask her to send to me so I can transcribe them for the Forum, which are embarassing in the extreme to read. I was just blithering on and on about this was the Lord and old religions were a waste of time and I hoped she'd see soon that he was back etc. etc. ad nauseum. To my mom's credit, she never got angry with me or said an unkind word. She just said she'd continue to pray for me, that I would come to my senses. It took awhile (almost ten years), but eventually her prayers worked, I guess.

I took my younger sister to see M when he came through Heathrow airport in London, in the very early days. She'd come to London for a brief visit, I don't think she knew how nuts I'd become. She thought he was the most idiotic thing she'd ever seen and promptly went back to California and became a Christian, joining the religion of my mother. This annoyed me no end. What was wrong with my sister and mother that they could not see that the Living Lord had returned? Were they blind? It continued to annoy me for many years thereafter that my sister had betrayed me in such a way (but that's sibling relationships for you). Now, of course, I'm glad for her, that she never got sucked in.

What a fool I was, and how lucky to have a patient and supportive family who still continued to love me despite my insanity. (Except privately my sister once told me that my dad was getting ready to disinherit me if I'd continued on much longer with the guru, so I guess I escaped in time for that not to happen.)

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 08:27:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: OK, let's go there--wham.that hurt.whew.
Message:
i gotta pull myself together before i can answer that one. you practically pinned me to the wall with each suggestion. that was my life, alright. here goes another vault opening.....
creeeeaaaaaaakkkkkk
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 09:53:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: OK, let's go there.
Message:
my mother was strangely behind most of the significant turning points in my premie life, and i never really saw it till you suggested I tell about the connection.
it was directly due to her that i went to MJ. Ive told the story here before. i had left college because of TM and yoga but was drifting homeless in my college town when she begged me to come back to new york and be with her thr her fathers slow death with cnacer. i had to watch her disintegrate with drinking and grief for months and didnt know how to help. we both became depressed and avoided each other, sleeping opposite shifts in a small apt, until she hit me one gray day with the ultimatium not to come home from the city until i knew what would make me happy in life. i had a psychiatric appt in manhattan the next day. so i obeyed her to the letter. when the appt was over, i didnt go home. it was directly due to that that was asked to my first satsang that same night, and went off on a quest to receive knowledge, trailing around PA after the mahatma and BBJ for the next three weeks until i got chosen. it was 29 years ago tonight, in fact.
She was visibly baffled to look in my eyes when i came home at last. And I had what she sent me out to find. She shadowed me around the house trying to fathom what had happened to me in those 3 weeks i had disappeared. i had meditated before i left, so she couldnt discern what had changed.
It was her deciding to go back to california within a month that allowed me to move into the NYC community and become a gung ho premie. she came back in october to close out the place and store her furniture, and i came with the divine sales truck (sheldon jaffee and maybe bobby manrodt were there) up from the city to load all our childhood furniture into the van and sell it. soul rush had started and i invited her into the city to see 'who is Guru Maharaj ji' after an all day meditation at joe lopez' dojo, so we were high as kites by evening. moments after emerging from the screening, she had just asked me what was knowledge, and the moment was blown by 2 friends of mine introducing themsleves and chatting. so she never got satsang.
she was again how i got to the next chapters in my premie life. when new york began to marginalize me further and further away from the center, she sent me a ticket to come see her in LA. i got off in denver and decided to be there for a while, and thus was in denver for maharaji's wedding in may of 74. my poor mom was waiting for me out in newport beach for months on end, while i lived at the shelter, and then a premie apt, and another, and went to amherst, and finally ended up homeless again in the winter in denver in an abandoned premie house on 18th and gaylord. i finally finished the rest of the plane flight i had started in april and flew to L A on christmas to see her.
she had gotten a beachfront cottage with her father's inheritance, and was drinking it away on a half a gallon of vodka every few days. i tried hard to placate her but the drinking put her in maudlin rages. i set up an altar in my guest bedroom, pranamed to it, and meditated, just like the ashram ritual. she would steal into the doorway to observe me do all this. i sang arti softly to the picture and used a tea candle since i couldnt make ghee candles for my arti tray. she didnt know quite how to inquire about it all. i advised her to come with me to satsang any number of times, but by evening she was always way too drunk to go out anywhere.
just past new years, she got so worked up she bashed a glass beer stein on the tile counter and came drunkenly menacing me with the pure glass handle. that was when i knew i had to split and do my talking from a distance again. i packed my suitcases and called the local premies in costa mesa to take me into LA. she was quite astonished and dismayed to see how fast i could arrange to vanish back into the premie world. i think i had been there maybe a week, maybe 2.
i became homeless again in l a but found other premies in thesame straits to run with. i called her from time to time. one time i took my premie 'sleepover boyfriend' to see her in newport beach overnight, since his mom lived in orange county and he was gonna see her too. he slept with me at her place, and in the morning my mom regaled him with my baby picture album and doted on him. by sharp contrast, when we got to his moms house, he made me stay in the car parked in the street and didnt want his mom to meet me.
i left l a and got a ride back to denver, and a year later i got a call that the paramedics had found her in her motel room in a 3rd level coma they couldnt bring her out of. she was in intensive care at newport beach hospital and i was to come out right away. i flew out that day.
i never saw her awake again. it took her 14 days to die in that state, lost in a limbo from a massive alcoholic stroke in her bathroom just after a shower. they had found her nylon pants wet on the shower floor, right where she was washing them out when it hit her. they found her naked and unconscious, laid out on her bed, and no one in the complex had seen her for 2 days so they had goten worried.
the surgeon said it was better that she never wake up. the damage was so exensive she would have been a vegetable the rest of her days. she was 53.
and again, it was directly ecause of her that i had the next three significant lifechanging turns in my spiritula life.
alone with her in the room one day, i asked if Jesus was real, would he please come and help her cross over, because i didnt know what to do for her. I was astonsihed when he manifested in a blaze of light and walked into the room, visible to me, and telepathically communed with me about her fate and about my own life. It was the beginning of my true relationship with him and understanding that he was indeed real.
Listening to her breath fading each day on the respirator, i truly came to understand how the life was in the breath, and i felt hers leaving her. i was not there the night she died. but i knew.
her passing sent me into a queer twilight state, so severe it was practically catatonic. it was the onset of the disability i still get checks and insurance for today. with her gone, life terrifed me. the immensity of it filled me with panic attacks, agoraphobia, nightmares, suicidal cravings. and then homicidal cravings. if charlie brown artman hadnt taken me to social security and gotten me on ssi, i might have ended up dead or insane. i didnt believe in an afterlife. i wanted to go be wherever she was and couldnt find it. i spent 18 hours a day in a subterranean cell with my face against the clammy stone wall, trying to go find where she had gone.
and again, due to her, i found out there is an afterlife!
a premie friend who'd driven me back from l.a. to denver when it was over, took me to a spiritualist medium near the denver residence, and while he was getting his reading, i felt my mother come into the room! the reader then broke off his reading to turn to me and tell me there was a woman to see me. it was her, and her father and mother and brother, now reunited over there. i recognized her presence before the medium turned to tell me she had come.

that was 1976. the fear remained with me for years, even so. i was 23. she didnt live to see me get pregnant or have my son within two years. she left me 10 thousand dollars of her fathers inheritance, which i wanted to take and buy land and retreat into whole earth catalog style life. my family kept it from me, afraid i would give it to you know who. it got pissed away on a forced hospitalization when he was 3, and the very last of it went for bail in 1988 on a domestic violence charge wth my expremie boyfriend.

psychic friends of mine have seen her or sensed her, and i have seen her in dreams since she died. shes always drunk. i did extensive research on the afterlife, starting in 1991, and found out that if you die addicted, you stay addicted over there. its much harder to quit without the body. they do have rehab if you want it. but apparently she doesnt feel its for her. she had an AA boyfriend in the 60's and she wouldnt go to meeting with him, either, so i shouldnt be surprised.

I really wonder what i will feel if i see her when i get over there. i have a hell of a lot of rage for her ruining her life, and in some ways, mine and my sisters, with her alcoholism. but she was also the strongest champion for me and all my talents, abilities and interests. i got my singing voice from her. i got my art talent from her.she encouraged and defended all my interests. she was a brilliant, but sick, woman. i was her 5th out of wedlock pregnancy, and the first she kept and raised. the others ended up in abortion or adopted at birth.
all in all, a tragic life, and her influence is felt to this day. she may be dead, but she isnt gone from the family by a long shot.

it was my father who took my son away and hospitalized me when i didnt need it, for being in a cult. my mother never did. she was a lifetime psychiatric, too, and i feel like somehow imm carrying her fallen standard for her in her absence.
all my fathers wel meaning efforts to shape my life have come to nothing, but my mother's have endured despite her drawbacks.
how odd.
especially the part about receiving knowledge.
and jesus.and the afterlife.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 10:27:33 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: OK, let's go there.-part II
Message:
in becoming a mother myself:
i owe the decision or the change of belief to maharaji. i had carried a lifelong fear of having kids or getting married because of my own home life growing up. i was sure if i had kids i would abuse them, because i only knew what had been done to me. seeing how MJ was with premlata and hansi changed that. i suddenly saw that kids are born as whole people, not blank slate dolls, and that they knew their own minds from the start. that led to my praying to have the chance to shjust one unspoiled human being all that i had come to cherish about life, and it was granted in january of 78--just as i got my ssi award and the news of my inheritance.
being pregnant was terribly emotional for me. the hormones softened me and made me weep at silly little things. no one ever understood how powerfully motherhood changed me--not the premies and not my family. the premies thought i should view my child as secondary to MJ, and my family believed that i actually did.
both were wrong, wrong, wrong.
but i couldnt get either faction to understand me.
as a result, i lost both.
my kid was a delight and delighted when he was growing up between his premie dad and I. i laid him at MJ's feet when he was 4 weeks old, in the darshan tunnel at kissimmee, and MJ stopped the line and bent over to be introduced to the reason i had not been at programs since spring. he seemed genunely pleased and touched when he looked in my little son's face.

we camped out at next year's festival too, and had a good time. drove the distance to orlando for the hurricane david festival that ws moved from the miami convention center, north, to outrun the hurricane. i think that was november 79 or 80. my son spoke his first word there.

from age 3 on, he didnt see me and phone calls were agony. his father saw him 3 times a year, so he heard premie songs and whatever his dad could share with him on weekend visits at my dads place, but i was 1200 miles away in denver and massively sad and frustrated not to be able to teach him and raise him as i had prayed to god to be given a child to do.

you have heard how he rejoined me at age 19 after being diagnosed with schizophrenia. i took him to long beach 97, which his dad came to also. any of you who were there may remember the 'yeeee haaa' that rang out over the hall during MJ's satsang. That was my son, letting fly one of his Deadhead/Phish Tour exuberances. I was amazed that security didnt swoop down on us and drag him away in manacles. Or that MJ didnt get mad either.

I was terribly cnflicted about my kid and knowledge. i worred that with his schizophrenia that he might not be able to get thru the aspirant process. he came a one or two videos with me--which even i wasnt all that interested in, and he wore his walkman the whole time.
he said the sound of MJ's voice calmed him somehow, but that was about it. there just wasnt much of a spark to pursue it. he wouldnt go without me. and i wouldnt go.

he was barred from the pasadena live satelite broadcast when they remembered him form long beach. he was made to sit out on the steps while everyone else went into the hall with MJ.
that nsulted me.

since i have exed--on his birthday, no less--oct 6th--ive shared this site and info with him. he's suitably saddened to find out how it realy is. hes an idealistic kid and reminds me of all the good things about me and the premies when we were 20 something. he's a compassionate vegan, believes in peace and nonviolence, wants to do massage and healing, craves for everyone to get along. i am quite sure he was supposed to grow up as a premie child, but my father interfered. its all a mess and i havent sorted it all out yet.
things are getting good between his father and i for the first time in 17 years. since we have both exed, we are finally beginning to get to know each other as real people and make amends for what we dd to each other as premies all those years. we had a long phone talk about that today, and for the first time ever, told eac other we love each other.

my relationships are healing with my father, my sister, my kids dad, my friends, thanks to this site.
i wonder what it would have been like had my mother still been alive.

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Date: Fri, May 18, 2001 at 02:19:49 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You are wonderful Janet
Message:
I am happy to read what is happening now to you and your
husband and how your son doing. He is lucky to have you and
he is all yours now.
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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 18:21:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: many, many thanks for sharing all this, Janet
Message:
though I haven't yet shared much here about my own family circumstances, your openness encourages me to. One day, perhaps.

(PS, I wonder why so many of us have a parent that was alcoholic?)

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 04:41:40 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Good idea
Message:
My poor mother heard me and in so many ways told me all along to shut the fut up; I wouldn't stop preaching and one daymy mom told me that if I ever try to talk like that she was going to ask me to leave. She couldn't stand to hear me talking about maharaji as the 'LORD', Satguru, etc. A raised Catholic my mother associated of course maharaji with the anticrist and she was very worried about me. Our relationship was one of turmoil and we began to see each other less and less until I left my country to be around maharaji. In those days he preached that serving him was the most honorable action a human being can do while alive, and with his many lies Lard convinced me good. I left my family: I became a cult memeber darling!!! So much fun; twenty five years of confussion and wondering by the grace of the Lard. The visits got to be less and less. I began to see her only once in a while. I never went back. I wanted to be close to my 'LORD'. What a mistake and I regreat greatly that I abandoned my family. My mother thought the worst and she was right.

I tied to bring them in. I took my entire family to satsang the day after I went for the first time and they were disgusted by the place, the feet smell, the people sitting on the floor, the idolatria toward maharaji, all. Nobody from my family received Knowledge and from then on they never wanted to hear about it again. Lucky people? well, they saw me deteriorating and all confronted me several times and advised me to reconsider my relationship with maharaji and I simply couldn't. I had already of course accepted him as my Satguru bullshit.

Today we are friends and we have been for many years. I received psychological therapy even as a premie and thanks to that I made peace with her. She is alive and happy that I left the cult!

I am a mother and my son knows that I was in the cult, sure. He wanted K in some point but not anymore,but he is caught in the middle because his father is a devotee who thinks he is God and me, I despise the man. My son turned out pretty good and he seems to be pretty 'normal', a young man with morals. He has some behavioral problems and even that I know all teenagers do to some degree I know in part is because he was affected by my involvement.

Idolatry. Tonight I watched an old video that was passed around few times which came from some PAM of the past wich contained many programs where Lard dressed like Krishna, dancing, Holi, DARSHAN(the camara is right by him, and shows the premies kissing his feet and Durga Ji, maharaji's wife doing the same) and him, in all his fake glory busting our balls telling us what to think and what not to think, and how he is the lord and we must surrender to him, and the world is bad and crazy and you better surrender, and that 'only through knowledge you can pass to the other side'. The concepts we were fed were no joke people! I founded and I couldn't resist it: How strange all really is. Silly as hell!! All the pieces fit now. He's fake!


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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 00:54:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: You are my mother and you are my father
Message:
You are my brother and you are my friend.

My mom was also a father to me because my dad died when I was young. She was often my big brother too. I did not have one to fix a broken bike so she did as she was a real handyman. She was also my friend as many sissy boys' moms are.

The first time that I saw her after I got K, I asked her what she thought I was doing when I closed my eyes and concentrated on my breath. She answered that I was close to god. Ten years after I got K and I was starting to doubt Urug Uturn, I showed her the techniques. She said she didn't need them and that being quiet was all that was necessary.

She watched Rawat videos with me and said he was okay but that he did not always speak positive thoughts and seemed to be quite negative and spoke of doubt and fear which was a nono for her. She was very much into thinking and speaking positive thoughts only. It was her spirituality which inspired me to search for truth. She hated all religion but told me that God is Love and that is all the truth I needed to know.

Just before she died a few years ago she came to stay with me for a few months and we had some very deep talks. It was during those talks that I came to realize that Knowledge was not the only way to feel great and that millions of people are walking around with peace of mind and don't make a big fuss of it. I began to see that others also were happy without K or M.

A few days before she died, when we knew she was on her last legs, I wanted to tell her that I did not believe in death and that we would all live forever and suddenly I began to feel not so sure of that. I quickly shut my mouth and thought to myself, ''What the hell do I know?'' She's dying and she will soon find out as I will when I kick the bucket.

My mother was a most unusal woman and one day I will write a book about her.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 03:55:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: all
Subject: PS My son was my mother's only grandchild and she
Message:
adored him. My cult involvement caused her the greatest pain with him because my ex took him when he was 4 and cut off all ties for 12 years because she hated the cult and thought that I was crazy. No one knew where she was. My mom talked about my son all the time. I resented my ex for doing that to my mother.

One day mom told me this story. A young man whom she knew in South Africa got married and decided to take his new wife to Scotland where he had been born. His mother had also cut all ties to his real father when she emigrated to South Africa with another man.

While this young man and his new wife were sitting watching a soccer match in Glasgow they started talking to the man sitting next to them. They told him their story and he said: ''What a coincidence. My ex-wife emigrated to South Africa and took my son with her and I haven't seen him in 20 years.''

Yes amazingly it was his real father.

This story so inspired my mother because I had been married to a Scots woman and my son had been born in Glasgow. She was convinced that if I went to Glasgow I would find him. I never did because I did not have that kind of faith. It would not have mattered anyway because they had moved to Newcastle when my ex remarried as I later discovered.

Well, 12 years after I had last seen my son, I got a letter from a premie who had received K at the same time as my ex and I telling me that my son now 16 wanted to leave his mother and come to me. It took two years of negotiations before he came to live with me. I took him to see Urug Uturn and he hated him. That was ten years ago.

Also another coincidence: At the same time as I received K, so did another couple with whom I had been very close (we had all got married at the same time too when we were living in the same commune.) This couple left the cult 20 years ago and I lost touch with them. I knew where they lived in Yorkshire and last week I began to search the net to see if I could find their email to tell them that I had also finally left the cult. I had no luck.

Two days ago I received an email from them. They did not know that I was looking for them but had found out my email address because it was included in a list of addresses in an email from another mutual acquaintance. I had not known that they were still in touch with each other. The premie/ex-premie world is very small and the internet is making it smaller.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:20:17 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: OK, I owe her this
Message:
I hurt my mother before I heard of Maharaji. I was at university, I was very unhappy, and I had read the book 'Primal Scream', and wrote my parents a letter saying that I was mentally messed up, that it was their fault, and that I was dropping out of university, wasn't coming home, and was going to sort myself out. I can't imagine the pain this caused them.

So, a few months later, I'm back home, a bit of a reconciliation, but I hear about Maharaji. I go down to London, receive k, and move into the ashram, but not before taking my mother to a screening of Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji. She was very polite. A year later, she came to satsang in Leeds, and was again polite. Maybe the fact that I was MC and my brother sang a couple of songs made it more friendly for her.

The k-lite years that followed meant I needn't talk to her about k or m. During my brother's mental illness and later suicide, my mother never mentioned the possibility that my brother's involvement in the cult played any part.

Now, she has moved back to Latvia, I have joined her here, and for the remainder of her life, her welfare is my number one priority.

I am just so grateful for this opportunity to make up for the pain I caused.

John.

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:42:00 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: JHB
Subject: You are a good son
Message:
John, having actually talked to your dear mom in Latvia, I can attest that she is well loved and cared for. You are doing a wonderful job. You are a warm and completely genuine person.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 19:26:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: mixed emotions
Message:
Hi Babs thanks I need to get this out appreaciate that you and Cynthia and SB posted in this thread.

my mom died last September and I keep waiting for something to hit me, I'm thinking may have already been worked through earlier. Our relationship is hard to explain. She was very creative and highly intelligent and liked to do all my homework with me and read to me and taught me to read and speak in both English and French before 1st grade.
However she was also very distant and cold emotionally. I don' think she was ok, she was always zoned on prescription drugs and had had a severely traumatic childhood. I m not sure the guru thing even registered with her she was probably glad to see me do just about anything other than what i had been doing. She wasnt even interested all that much in my children.
I'v tried to be a more acessible mom, pay more attention and be warmer to my kids and I am although it's a stretch for me, I had a nightmare reoccur 3 tmes since she died that i had become her.
And my boys have good memories of the premies but are not interested in M and K.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 17:36:06 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: OK, let's go there
Message:
Hi Babs,

I never got the chance to give satsang to my Mother, although I tried. She and I had a discussion a few months ago about my cult involvement and she told me she was very worried, especially when I packed up and moved to Miami with three days notice. My father, a tyrant, caused her much pain and suffering because he obsessed about me and my sister being in the cult.

When the Jonestown murders happened she became extremely worried and felt helpless. I explained as best I could to my Mother, who is now 78, with Alzheimers, how I got involved and told her that I was completely out of it now, but involved in this forum which is comprised of ex-premies. She felt a lot of relief. She is a Polish Roman Catholic and her roots in that religion are deep.

I'm very glad I exited the cult in time to be able to explain to her (while she can still understand and remember that time) what was going on with me back then.

Of course, she used her favorite phrase which these days is ''They should string him up by the balls!''

My Mom...I love her very much--she's fading away.

Cynthia

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 21:23:00 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Your Mother spoke the truth
Message:
''They should string him up by the balls!''

She is a very wise woman, and all the best to her in her twilight years.

John.

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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 19:38:20 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: OK, let's go there
Message:
Hi, my mom came to satsang for two weeks when I first started and then without an explanation stopped. We could not discuss it. She hated my involvement and pushed me away. So I was left without a family for many, many years. (I've had and have a lot of therapy to deal with this issue).
She knows now that I have left the cult and is happy.
My relationship with my mom is very complex. Luckyly she is in Argentina and I am here in Seattle.
That's all...
Mercedes
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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 19:48:56 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Mother
Message:
The six of us called our mom 'Mother,' which seems strange by today's standards, but it was the Midwestern WASPish thing to do, I guess. She was tolerant and tried to be understanding of my involvement with DLM. Her tack was 'Why can't you be happy without all this guru/meditation stuff?' Raised by an atheist mother, she didn't have much use for religion, although they dutifully sent us off to the neighborhood church for Sunday school, so we'd know more about the state religion than she did.

(My father, an ex-Catholic, was more hostile about DLM. He kept comparing Guru Maharaj Ji to the Pope to piss me off.)

Anyway, when I told my mother I was leaving the ashram - and the cult - she was so happy she couldn't sleep that night.

Unfortunately, she didn't live long enough to see me become a father.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 01:21:34 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: My mother lives 2 miles away which is
Message:
great.

She's 82 & is getting forgetful , has strange ideas about how the world works , but that's ok by me , I have some myself .

She comes from a family which was dispossesed of a large estate in Ireland in the ructions following the rising of 1798 .

Throughout the 19th & early 20th C's her family maintained a ferocious adherence to Catholicism , an insistence on scholastic excellence , & a partisan interest in politics .

Although I failed to meet the requirements of the dead generations she never reproached me , until the pied piper arrived .

We had the most appalling & violent arguments which went on to the small hours of the morning , she fired off letters to MP's , the newspapers , the Cardinal Archbishop ...all sorts. (fuck you rawat I'm rekindling some of those old fires)

She forced me to confront what love meant , & as a result I decided not to move into the ashram , because that would've been the final straw for her .

I became a 'community' premie as a result , which caused me a great deal of grief at the time because I've always been the type who wants to be where the action is .

However her influence prevented me from being totally fucked over by the cosmic con man , & that is a debt I can never repay .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 18:34:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: being a community premie
Message:
Hi Bin
Your mom did you a great favor. Still,
I know the feeling. I read a lot here about the ashram blues but the other side was bad too. Never feeling involved enough, never ok, not giving enough , the conflict of the obvious physical and emotional requirements to care for my children when it was not recognized as worth much at all 'service' wise.
I hate the cult for coloring that part of my early parenting experience which otherwise was one of the best times of my life.
Know what you mean about the Irish Catholics! I didn't mention my disinheritance here because it came from my dad's Irish Catholic side of the family but they got about $800,000 US pissed off at me. chump change to M but I could have stopped working this year.
Then again, maybe another 5 or 6 years of working is a good thing. But the fact remains it was my cult involvement that was the last straw.
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 02:46:11 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Mothers and daughters
Message:
My mother came from a large Catholic family, and she wanted to heve a dozen kids, but she and my dad were unable to have children at all. The doctor told them that they were both infertile so that neither would blame the other. They registered with several adoption agencies but were always turned down. The agencies were very strict in those days and didn't consider them a 'stable' couple, despite the fact they had already been married for sixteen years(!), because my dad was in the oil business and traveled a lot. My adoption was arranged privately, through lawyers, when my mom was 39 and my dad was 43. They were frequently mistaken for my grandparents when I was growing up.

I was an only child, but I joked with my mom that I tried to make as much trouble as twelve kids, so she wouldn't feel she had missed out on anything in life. When I joined the cult, my dad wanted to have me kidnapped and deprogrammed, but mom convinced him to be patient and let me come to my senses on my own timetable. She told me on her deathbed that, through her relationship with me over the years, she had come to understand the meaning of unconditional love.

My daughter is named after my mother. She is seventeen now. She and I have absolutely nothing in common in terms of our interests and personalities. I was a real nerd as a kid, always with my nose in a book, last one chosen for the baseball team, glasses, braces - a total klutz. She doesn't have time to read much - too busy with ballet and rock climbing. And I love her. Unconditionally.

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 21:46:05 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Mothers and daughters
Message:
What a lovely thread. A great way to come back to the forum. I have been away and was just going to lurk for a while, but this is just my kinda thing.

I just got off the phone with my mom in England (I'm in California). We have a good phone relationship, and talk quite a bit every 2 weeks. My mom (and dad) was a physicist who was drafted to work on the bomb in the second world war. Then the CND (ban the bomb movement) started in our living room when I was toddling. My mom, at 82, goes to the CND (2 bus rides from her home) every day STILL to volunteer, ever since she was forcibly retired as a university professor (by Margaret Thatcher's policies). She is an atheist and totally feels that she is responsible for saving the world. When I ask her how she is doing she tells me about how Blair or Bush or the latest nuclear power plant are doing. I've gotten used to it and have learned to talk in this language to maintain communication. I'm very proud of her dedication and genuine commitment. What a contrast to DLM!

When I got Knowledge she was fairly tolerant at first, but then started being quite angry about it. It didn't help at all in my dealing with my involvement. I understand now that she was feeling abandoned. At one point I was ironing Mata Ji's saris and she said, 'You never iron my clothes.' What a poignant thing to say!

For all her good intentions she was very cold and distant to me when I was growing up; she mentioned a few times that having kids was a big burden–– which didn't feel great to me. I think I felt quite deprived and that this definitely predisposed me to go for divine parental figures who would 'really' love me. Unfortunately, as is the way with these things, I chose substitutes who were cold and distant (Mata Ji was a block of ice, personally!), so it didn't heal anything. I think it's significant that the seminars I teach are called 'motherwave' and that I have put a lot of effort - my life's work in fact - into finding effective ways to reparent myself and others internally.

The whole subject of my mom is at the forefront of my mind right now, because I really want to go and see her, but am not healthy enough to make the trip to England right now, and she doesn't feel up to travelling here. I'm a bit anxious about it since I haven't seen her since she visited here 3 years ago. We usually trade years - she comes here, I go there. I must admit that when she comes here I don't have a good time. In person, we get along much worse than on the phone. It's easier for me to go over there so I can pop in and out. I'm always trying to find the format where the love flows best between us. I love her a lot.

It feels good to focus on how much I'm grateful to her for. She used to make me soggy tomato sandwiches to take for school lunch (which was what I deeply desired). Even the places where I feel it wasn't as nurturing as I wanted have ended up being great edges that have caused me to stretch and become quite creative. And I never doubt her good intentions.

Mother ki jai,

love Disculta

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 08:00:16 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Welcome home, Sweetie Dahling
Message:
I was hoping that you would be feeling absolutely fabulous after two weeks in the sunshine. Just let me know if you need any of my seemingly boundless energy and it's yours. (After my last surgery I am better than I have been in 15 years in spite of turning 54 this week.) I feel very blessed with robust health right now.

Your mom sounds like the mom I would have liked and my ''spiritual'' touchy-feely mom would have loved you to bits. But I always preferred my intellectual friends' moms to my own when I was a kid.

A tip about meeting moms in the right environment - meet her halfway in the Bahamas and loaf on the beach for two weeks in separate cabins. It's amazing what happens when you meet on neutral territory.

Mata Ji once said: ''If you want to worship a goddess, then worship your mother.'' But she also told me to stop having sex with my wife at the time. A cold and calculating businesswomen a la Imelda Marcos selling divine roses from her garden to starving peasants.

Anyway welcome home and come and see me soon. I want to give you some real prasad - the kind that gives you strength.

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 01:13:00 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Welcome back!!! N/T
Message:
bienvenida
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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:17:27 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Yes Darling Disculta, Welcome back!!! N/T
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 07:42:40 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Thanks for the welcome y'all n/t
Message:
poadihf
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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 22:38:37 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Mothers and daughters
Message:
In finally coming to forgive my mother I have been able to forgive all my own shortcomings as a mother. I held onto my resentment towards my mother for years and years, and when I finally let go it was like pulling out roots that were suffocating my heart, and my heart had much more room to breathe. The first step to forgiving was to try to understand her and I finally grasped how much she had endured and survived. It was finally time to let her off the hook. She has suffered enough. It's one of the gifts of growing older that we come to forgive our parents. We come to a place of accepting ourselves and them, and of seeing what is important.

Motherhood is the hardest thing I have ever done. It stirs up all my latent neuroses/fears/impulses/insecurities so that I have to deal with them in a very raw form,as nothing is more primal than the emotions your child brings out in you. It's incredibly painful when I see my own limitations as a parent, see myself doing the things I swore I would never do! Fortunately my kid has turned out great so far despite my best efforts to screw her up. She's self confident, happy, and loving! It helps that she has a a dad with a sunny personality! One writer in a set of parents is enough!

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 03:10:47 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: All
Subject: Great thread -- my mom
Message:
This is a wonderful thread. Thanks Babs for starting it!

I joined the cult at 16, when I was still living at home with my disintegrating parents, in rural western Michigan. My mother went to medical school at Northwestern in the 1930's, but met my dad, got married and had 5 kids, like a good Irish Catholic girl. But her lost professional aspirations haunted her for the rest of her life. She wanted me to make up for her loss. She used to tell me I should be a lawyer when I was a teenager. I always retorted, 'Now that's last on the list of things I want to do, Mom!' How well she knew me!

It was my move into the ashram that really upset my mom. I went there at 17, right before I went away on SoulRush and to Millennium. What she hated was the command that we were never to have doubt in our minds. I took her to hear Mahatma Vijayanad speak one night, and she walked out in the middle of the program because of his comments about the mind being evil. She was horrified. I ran out after her to try to talk to her but she was crying. Bill Patterson, our then general secretary, followed me -- in his infinite wisdom. My mom was bad off enough but Bill tried to satsang her some more and she was even more distraught. This was after he had refused to allow me to visit her at Christmas when she was alone following my father's suicide. She thought I was totally lost.

I left the ashram about 6 months later, and moved to San Francisco to go to college. I was almost done with law school when she died of cancer -- 10 days after diagnosis. I was with her as she died and she was so proud of me. When I think of her, I imagine she's proud of me being a death row lawyer and does not think about the cult anymore.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, May 15, 2001 at 08:08:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: She could go because she knew you were on the
Message:
right path finally. I felt that about my mom's passing. She left when she had done her work and saw that I did not need her help anymore. It's so wonderful to talk to you here now that I have met you face to face. I am currently reading an article by John V Moore in which you are mentioned. Yep, Jonestown. Now, his life as a parent was a real tragedy.
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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 15:05:21 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'You Know Who' by popular request
Message:
They really call him You Know Who????? This is like school girls giggling about the latest boy singer. Or school boys talking about sex. An enigmatic evolution from Balyogeshwar, Sat Guru, Perfect Master, Mraahji, The Client, Him, The Speaker, The Captain and now You Know Who. Next he'll be secretly referred to via the graphic knowledge symbol like Prince was. By his logo ye shall know him. Oh well, here's the latest on blissful video darshan ops.


INVITATIONS FOR MAY 27 INTRO BROADCAST
--------------------------------------
By popular request, invitations for the May 27 introductory broadcast are
now available at all local events. If you know someone you would like to
invite, this would be a good opportunity to introduce them to Maharaji and
his message.

PORTLAND BROADCAST NEWS!
------------------------
Also by popular request, Visions International will be broadcasting the
Portland Aspirant question & answer session on Sunday, June 10. Also, coming
in July, Visions will be re-broadcasting the main Portland event, this time
to include footage not seen in the first broadcast. For those of you who
were there, you already know that 'You Know Who' had more to say than was
previously broadcast.

BROADCASTS EASILY ACCESSIBLE
----------------------------
If you know of anyone who already subscribes to DISH, all you will need to
do is give them the time and channel number of our program, and they can
access the broadcasts. That's it. There is no need to call Visions to view
the broadcasts. Just simply tune in.

Full broadcast schedules are regularly posted on the Visions website at
www.visionsinternational.org and are also available at local events.

SPONSORSHIP
-----------
These broadcasts are made possible through the sponsorship program and by
special contributions . Sponsorship is available to anyone who wishes to
support the work of providing broadcasts and materials conveying Maharaji's
message to people all around the world. For information, please call the
toll free sponsorship line at 1-888-610-0500. Your support is greatly
appreciated.

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Date: Wed, May 16, 2001 at 05:38:22 (GMT)
From: Christian Star
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: 'You Know Who' -- LOL
Message:
LOL!!! That's hilarious!! No, I DON'T know who, hahahaha! What do you think the person who wrote that line meant that by that?

I suspect it was a kind of unconscious Freudian slip, being that politically-correct Elan Vital tow-the-liners feel that somehow saying Maharaji's name outloud and in public is naughty, LOL!!!!

Thanks for giving me a nice little laugh before I got to bed. 'You know who' -- HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Mon, May 14, 2001 at 09:49:57 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Firesign Theatre calls 1-888-610-0500 -NT
Message:
asdf
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Date: Sun, May 13, 2001 at 17:20:09 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: He maybe You Know Who to them but......
Message:
to me he will always be a big You Know What to me.
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