Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 19:40:58 (GMT)
From: Apr 27, 2001 To: May 10, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Jerry -:- Faith , darshan, and meditation -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 15:52:59 (GMT)
__ Dermot -:- Faith , darshan, and meditation -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:43:42 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Faith , darshan, and meditation -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 22:39:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- Faith , meditation and experience of God -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 23:34:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- an experience of God: I did. -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 15:02:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Really Janet? -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 20:22:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Really Janet?-yep. in the K session with tech #2 -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 11:31:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Oh , ye of little faith -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:19:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- Oh , ye of little faith...and used to have so much -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:46:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- 'experience of God: I did.' -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- Faith , darshan, and meditation -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:26:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dermot -:- That's funny Bob ;) -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:47:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- That's funny Bob ;) -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 22:57:49 (GMT)
__ Djuro -:- IS BANNED - DO NOT ATTEMPT ENGAGEMENT! - FA -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:08:33 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- IS BANNED - DO NOT ATTEMPT ENGAGEMENT! - FA -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:55:19 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Faith , darshan, and meditation -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:20:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ sophiem -:- Faith , darshan, and meditation via OZ -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 03:45:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Faith , darshan, and meditation via OZ -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:33:09 (GMT)

Sandy -:- On human nature and doing the right thing -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 14:39:36 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- On human nature and doing the right thing -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:17:28 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Evolution allowed me to help make two more men -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 20:08:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dr. Ruth -:- Er, that was an Erection (nt) -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:52:09 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Low blows from Jim as expected -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:01:16 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- On human nature and doing the right thing -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:06:52 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- On human nature and doing the right thing -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:20:52 (GMT)

Investigative ex -:- Child abuse reporting requirments for CA psychs -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 03:47:01 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- She's not a child anymore -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:29:22 (GMT)
__ janet -:- Valerio is checkmated. everyone send this to him. -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 11:22:16 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- I can't believe I forgot about this law.... -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:43:54 (GMT)

Jim -:- Analyze THIS! -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 17:00:12 (GMT)
__ bill--Do you figure that -:- the feet kissing and arti was a huge drip for some -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 20:04:01 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Analyze THIS! -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 20:23:55 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Spin control -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 18:31:26 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes and don't forget the Conehead factor -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 19:39:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- god, jim, you said it. ewwwwww.double ewwww. -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 02:01:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Is this a sick joke or what? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 05:57:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Is this a sick joke from FV or what? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:09:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Is this a sick joke from FV or what? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:48:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Is this a sick joke from FV or what? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:45:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Practically invisible -- right on -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 20:53:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Flattery will get them nowhere.Koolaid,anyone?(nt -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 09:43:12 (GMT)

jaan -:- do you still feel love? -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 16:59:10 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- do you still feel love? -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 18:26:01 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- eer yee, eer yee -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 05:17:06 (GMT)
__ __ jaan -:- 'knowledge is eternal and true' -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 04:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Kashi Kedarghat Wala Baba ??????? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:15:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- why do you say this, Pat? u know somthing? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 11:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Jaan said 'of course there are all kinds of truth' -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:09:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jaan -:- Kashi Kedarghat Wala Baba ??????? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 09:11:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Kashi Kedarghat Wala Baba and Obi Wan Kenobe? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:23:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Kashi Kedarghat Wala Baba ??????? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:27:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jaan -:- happenning in our heads, and nowhere else -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 04:04:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Ooh ee ooh ah ah, Bing Bang Walla Walla Bing Bang -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 01:14:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Whoever gave you that idea? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 07:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- DOUBLE BINGO...Great Post Sir Dave...n/t -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:15:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- BINGO..The Truth at last. nt -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 09:04:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ jaan -:- Whoever gave you that idea? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:48:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Consider this idea then -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 14:44:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jaan -:- Consider this idea then :-)))))) -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 15:14:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Whoever gave you that idea? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 10:30:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jaan -:- TRUE MASTER ???? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 14:12:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- TRUE MASTER ???? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 20:37:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Jaan I'm glad that you haven't taken another guru -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:22:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- AMEN!! Sir Dave. NT -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:16:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ jaan -:- Cheers, Thanks for sharing !!! -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 04:11:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- And I wish you the very best to Jaan -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 07:53:30 (GMT)

Bob -:- technique 3- 'the word' -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 16:12:19 (GMT)
__ Tony -:- Christ that sounds bloody complicated -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:36:21 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- Bob.... I too did Tai Chi mny yrs ago... -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 18:14:16 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Bob.... I too did Tai Chi mny yrs ago... -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 06:01:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- No wonder we're so queer, Salam -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:18:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- am not queer. -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:34:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- So, I'm a fruit; you're a nut. Who's vegetable? NT -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:54:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- 'word' -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 12:00:36 (GMT)

cq -:- Amaroo's over - where's Abi's 'public apology'?(nt -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 15:27:34 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Why should child molestation? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 06:24:41 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Well from what I heared -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 05:18:47 (GMT)
__ kev -:- Yes, Maharaji we were all waiting -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 17:13:33 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- When will people understand? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 00:05:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ donner -:- right on dave...nt -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 01:39:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- You want that dime sent where? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:44:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill--on second thought, -:- if Abi's dad was still there rawat mentioned it in -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 03:24:23 (GMT)

Bob -:- the little boy that could not -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 15:22:57 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- sorry, HE ain't no GENIUS! -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 06:27:16 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- the little boy that could not -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 16:21:08 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- Forum Stats -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 21:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Forum Stats. Question. -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:47:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Don't Know It All -:- yes debatable -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 21:46:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- ps now I feel bad sorry. -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 21:54:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- FAs don't do that -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 06:12:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I know better -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 21:26:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- well me dear -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 08:22:06 (GMT)

cq -:- Do M's Hindu followers dig his love of 'cow pie'? -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 15:21:56 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- we did -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 15:25:58 (GMT)

Mr. Mind -:- Mr. Maha advises against smoking cigarettes -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 11:30:19 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Mr. Maha advises against smoking cigarettes -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 01:14:35 (GMT)
__ SURE -:- Mr. Maha advises against smoking cigarettes -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 12:32:44 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Suck the ... -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 19:03:43 (GMT)

PatC -:- I got email from hanuman -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:04:53 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Hanuman, I did not get you banned from FV -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 00:47:02 (GMT)
__ __ From Hanuman -:- to PatC via email and my reply -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 00:58:32 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Well, he isn,t playing with a full deck -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 06:34:45 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for seeing Mr. h in such a balanced ... -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:58:59 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Not playing with a full deck. I'll be nice -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- to Francesca and Pat C -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 04:02:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- 'beaten up' by cult' - thanks Tonette for reminder -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 08:01:17 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- I got email from hanuman -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 01:09:41 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Oy, Pat! -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 02:57:02 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- He thinks I'm a degenerate like Kerouac and -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 03:06:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- I'm sorry -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 03:16:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Kerouac OT -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:21:29 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- my TV sucks -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:14:38 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Law and Order: An evil twin kills her good twin -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:32:36 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Hopefully, he was watching his favorite show -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:12:37 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- And hanuman died a lonely monkey -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:34:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Why isn't hanuman in Amarscroo -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:49:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- I feel sorry for him. I think he's lonesome -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 05:25:37 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- PS: You Know Who reveals You Know What -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:11:20 (GMT)

G -:- Some info on Elan Vital -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 21:36:18 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Tom Hagan? -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 21:45:17 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- No, nice Tom ji premie foot-soldier from Visions -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 23:43:51 (GMT)

Jim -:- One terribly wrong thing m said yesterday -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 18:36:05 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Learning to Learn -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 01:46:26 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- One terribly wrong thing you said here -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 14:08:35 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Didn't Marorlyn have neurosurgery? -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 07:28:31 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Why does he blather and what is satsang -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 07:48:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- The real M / fake M experiment revisited -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 12:44:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- The real M / fake M experiment revisited -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 12:04:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- How did I do it? - surprisingly easy... -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 15:28:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- This's the third time I've tried to read your post -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:28:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Loaf -:- The real M / fake M experiment revisited -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 18:24:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- The real M / fake M experiment revisited -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Dermot -:- 2 0r 3 right then...hmm quite good ;)) (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:49:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Over half of them wrong....;) (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:31:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Not entirely wrong, but... -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 22:23:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- no.. YOU said they were extracts from m's... -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 05:24:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- I said no such thing. Please re-read agya (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:07:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- I got too blissed out to read the small print -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:51:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Not entirely wrong, but... -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 10:10:44 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Wrong, irritating, and the same old, same old -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 03:31:01 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Wild horses couldn't drag me to Amaroo -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 02:37:52 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- It makes perfect sense to me -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 02:35:39 (GMT)
__ __ Roy Rogers -:- Give me the reigns of your life and I will.... -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 03:06:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Trigger -:- reins, reins - REINS!!! Geddit right goddamit.(nt) -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 15:36:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Roy and Dale Evans -:- We know a little girl named Cynthia.... -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:52:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- No it's not -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 23:51:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- rains:wet. reins:horse. reigns:king got it? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 12:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave (Head Librarian) -:- No - since when were you a horse, Janet? -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 14:27:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- nay, he can have all my rains, unto drowning. -:- Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 14:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Guru Mariachi -:- Give me the reigns of your life and I will.... -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:34:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tumblin' Tumbleweed -:- Give me the reigns of your life and I will.... -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:39:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Guru Mariachi -:- Give me the reigns of your life and I will.... -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:41:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Om Om on the Range.... -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:45:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Om Om on the Range.... -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- true confessions -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:59:10 (GMT)
__ bill--that bastard, HE is -:- the one that breaks your spirit.........nt -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 22:10:33 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Agreed, Bill -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:57:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- excellent point....nt -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 03:32:19 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- The Breaking of the Spirit -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 22:59:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Good one Greg -- right problem, wrong solution -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:56:56 (GMT)
__ kev -:- One terribly wrong thing m said yesterday -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 19:56:13 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Actually, Jim, -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 19:53:58 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- I caught that too -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 20:55:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- wild horses, we'll ride them some day -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 02:38:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Giddy up! Yee-ha! -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 12:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Giddy up! Yee-ha! -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 16:08:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You go, girl. Right on, as always -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- You go, girl. Right on, as always -:- Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:42:17 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- One terribly wrong thing m said yesterday -:- Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 19:22:04 (GMT)


Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 15:52:59 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Faith , darshan, and meditation
Message:
Does meditation work if you don't believe in it? Is it like prayer? The power of prayer works only for those who believe in God. If you don't believe in God, praying is not going to make you feel closer to him.

Is meditation like that? Before you sit down to meditate, don't you have to believe that it has some power to cause an experience in order for it to do just that?

And couldn't we extend this to the power of darshan? Couldn't the experience of darshan just be a result of the belief we had in Maharaji's power? For someone who had no such belief, could darshan have any effect?

Anybody want to share their ideas on this? I think it's a very important subject if we're to get a deeper understanding of why we dove so deep into Maharaji's world. If not for faith, would we have?

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:43:42 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Faith , darshan, and meditation
Message:
Hi Jerry,

Interesting post.

Of course any answers are dependent on the definition of the terms involved. Your first Q…..Does meditation work if you don't believe in it?
The operative words…meditation…work….believe…..can be defined in different ways.

If you're referring strictly to the k techniques then obviously they (for us exes AND premies) carry a lot of baggage. It's probably hard, if not impossible, to disassociate them from you know who and his you know whatness !!

However, as a form of refreshment/ relaxation I reckon most meditation techniques do 'work' to some extent at least. For instance, on occasions I like to do the yoga 'corpse' posture whilst concentrating on slow , rhythmic breathing. Just sort of ' letting go'. I don't think I believe in anything in particular …..my usual motivation is just one of tiredness, fatigue. Afterwards, I usually feel refreshed, zingy….a heightened feeling of awareness. So , as a result, something has 'worked' to the extent that instead of a tired lethargic feeling , I feel more alert and 'high'.

I think the 'Darshan' experience is a whole different ball game. As aspirants we were heavily conditioned into associating m as some sort of superior bestower of a subtle ( yet ,nevertheless, powerful) experience. A person ….a being….who knew our innermost selves more than we did !!
It's easy to scoff at such a notion now ( and we do ) but it's also easy to dismiss that earlier conditioning. It went pretty fucking deep. Or it did in my case, anyway. These days it blatantly obvious to us that k, ev etc etc is based soley around a weird, obnoxious personality cult. Ahh ….if only I saw so clearly in 1973 !!

Even so , there where many times when my experience of darshan was zilch ( of course that was my own fault….too much in my 'mind':) ) But when I did experience something it was pretty powerful. I remember once floating along as if I'd smoked some exuisite , un-cut. Nepalese gold dope. Just feeling so cool . Of course the fact that I'd been so conditioned into believing in m and the fact that I'd travelled thousands of miles and the fact that I was getting off on a whole festival atmosphere and the fact that I'd psyched myself up with so much anticapation etc etc etc well I dismissed all that. The experience was there because he 'gave' me it .Full stop. Ha …..more probably there because I hoped, prayed, believed and longed for it. It was my experience and I conjured it up. Really, it was nothing to do with him ….cept I dropped some cash in an envelope to help his house or plane funds or something hahaha.

Now that I don't BELIEVE in him I'm sure I wouldn't experience anything from him. Premies would say that's because I'm in my 'mind'. His darshan experience is still there but I've closed myself off from it. Yeah Right.

Anyway ….basically I reckon relaxing meditation can give experience regardless of belief but darshan really requires a deep , conditioned belief.
I had some sort of an experience as a catholic boy but that was because I was deeply conditioned/ brainwashed. Now I experience nothing from Catholicism …..but now I don't believe in it.

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 22:39:44 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Faith , darshan, and meditation
Message:
Hi, Dermot,

Thanks for the reply. I guess it could get confusing when we define just what it means by 'works' when talking about meditation. I guess it all depends on what you're after while practicing. If it's for a little relaxation and heightened awareness, as is the case for you, I guess it 'works', as you have stated.

But I'm talking about the expectations of Knowledge and similar expectations people have from practicing other forms of meditation, the expectaton that you will commune with God. If you don't first believe that meditation can achieve that end, I don't think it can. I don't even think the thought that such a thing might happen, or is happenning, while meditating, would ever enter your mind unless somebody first planted it there, as was the case with us when we received Knowledge.

Interestingly, Maharaji no longer claims that he can reveal God, only that there is peace within, and he can reveal that. It would be interesting to see how many people who have received K, since M stopped God talking it to death, have experiences of God while practicing it. In fact, it would be hysterical if there were two camps out there, the old school of PWK who think they're seeing God while practicing K, and the newer, more improved model of PWK, who think no such thing.

As for the darshan experience, I think you were right on about it.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 23:34:57 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Faith , meditation and experience of God
Message:
I doubt if there is anyone before or after m stopped openly claiming that he could show God , who can honestly say that they experienced God in meditation. Don't kid yourself, if there is a God, there is more to Him/Her than a bit of light and an AHA feeling!!
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 15:02:55 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: an experience of God: I did.
Message:
seriously.

well you asked.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 20:22:08 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Really Janet?
Message:
.....what makes you think, feel and understand that you experienced GOD ?

....you absoluttely 100 per cent certain ?

.....you sure it wasn't your imagination?

.....you, Janet, here for a few score years .....born and conditioned in a particular way .......experienced ( albeit if GOD actually EXISTS :) ) something so incomprehensible, so vast beyond vastness, so infinite beyond a billion billion peoples imaginations combined , something so eternal that we haven't the slightest glimmer of knowing what that means .....

You just happened to EXPERIENCE it.

Sheesh .....you're lucky huh?

Dermot

who hasn't a clue what he's experienced

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 11:31:16 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Really Janet?-yep. in the K session with tech #2
Message:
I've described it elsewhere here.

and having said that, I can hear all the premies like Djuro and Turner rushing in and saying 'then there's your proof he is what he says. and how can you leave him if he showed you God?'

and in the first weeks of my declaring myself an ex, that troubled me. but no longer.

because I see prem pal rawat for what he is and what he has decided to do with the hand fate has dealt him, and i hate him and his whole game. he didn't show me what I reached, he doesnt practice it himself, he's a drunk and a whorer, he's illiterate and ignorant and a user, an extorter, has no conscience, no care for anyone, and will not change and come clean about any of what he's done to people.

and apart form this site, if what I have been told about the afterlife is true, I would not want to be him when his life review is played and the tribunal convenes to judge him.

but yess. what i reached in the knowledge session when i first did the music technique, was indeed God.

and no, I didn't imagine it.

you know what they say:
'after enlightenment, the laundry'

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:19:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Oh , ye of little faith
Message:
Dermot,

There is such a thing called the mystical experience that quite a few people have experienced. While God may be a product of specific brain chemistry, people do have experiences they describe in just such a manner as you just described. If you'd like to learn more, there's a very interesting book called Why God Won't Go Away that deals with this subject. Much of the book is pure speculation and should be treated with skepticism, but much of it is also a definitive study of what transpires in the brain during spiritual experience. It's also very well written and engrossing.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:46:59 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Oh , ye of little faith...and used to have so much
Message:
...Hi Jerry

Yep ....I have a little understanding of the ' mystical ' experience. The 7yo catholic boy who used to furtively get out of bed in the middle of the night and pray and 'commune' with Jesus and the saints. Who ( when not afflicted with bi-sexual guilt or outright rebelliousness ) was going to dedicate my life to the church. Who was enthralled and enraptured by first the Catholic/ christian mystics then every sort of mystic under the sun.

Who started on acid as a 15yo innocent wide-eyed seeker of the transcendental.....who ended up with Guru mumbojumbo 7 years later. Who used to soar away in all night meditations.

Who now ....wonders how we can ever hope to glean the slightest perception of ultimate reality -:))

Hey I 'll check out the book sometime,,,,thanks.

Dermot

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:49:50 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: 'experience of God: I did.'
Message:
Have you been able to separate it from the person m. ? Bob
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:26:34 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Faith , darshan, and meditation
Message:
Interesting You bring catholicism whith the picture:
In the archives of my memory, of darshan like events:
-first communion- With all the anticipation of 'receiving christ'.
-seeing Santa Claus- Actually in Holland, where I grew up, it was 'Sinterklaas' (saint Nicolas).
Also Memorable, just after leaving the ashram, I was in a Dolphin show: I got completely carried away, tears streaming over my face etc. This has been the strongest one in my life.
(whith m. it was never that great. When I tried to look in his eyes I always got the strong impression that he did not like me)
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:47:25 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: That's funny Bob ;)
Message:
... when I tried to look in his eyes I always got the strong impression that he did not like me

haha yeah I got that impression sometimes.....also, once or twice i walked through and we sort of mutually eyeballed each other as if we both were suspicious of each other :))

maybe your impression was right.... maybe he dislikes al the premies hahah ....maybe he thinks ' for fuck sake ....here comes another schmuck.....hope he left a decent tip in the envelope ' :))

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 22:57:49 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: That's funny Bob ;)
Message:
The other thing which made this cult such a freak show is the introduction of the apocalyptic programming from christianity into DLM. I remember a satsangfragment from m. in '73 about Millennium '73 in which he said not to be surprised if the angels came from above and would lift the astrodome into heaven .
(of course I got it all wrong and took it literally - like all the premies in our ashram- (deniability))
I live in Florida and meet quite a few southern baptists at work etc. Any small earthquake or tornado, or anything in the news always evokes their respons that these are the end of days blabla . when I confront them with the fact that the likes of them have said this for 2000 years now, they respond with the phrase that the hour is not known to man...! Although I depise their primitive dogmatism I do deeply respect the purity and the spirituality of many black Christians.
Anyway, This apocalyptic vieuw created an urgency to the movement which is foreign to the Indian roots (I think)
This urgency emphasizes the cult caracter of the movement. Wasn't there a time that m. was nagging on and on about shape up or ship out. Which implied missing out on a unique , crucial, unrepeatable opportunity.

In my new life as a worm or fire ant I feel much better. I like it here...!

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:08:33 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: IS BANNED - DO NOT ATTEMPT ENGAGEMENT! - FA
Message:
[Djuro's text deleted]

All attempts to communicate with Djuro in the past have failed. He/she usually posts one line satsangs and then never answers questions put to him/her. Normally posts from Spain where his/her IP range is blocked. Currently posting from Australia, so I wonder where he/she's been.

Any further posts from Djuro will be deleted, along with any responses.

Forum Admin

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:55:19 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: IS BANNED - DO NOT ATTEMPT ENGAGEMENT! - FA
Message:
maybe he/she immigrated.

He speaks Arabic, only other person I know off that can do that is Cat. Ofcourse I could be mistaken, as north africa is cloose to Spain and Dj could have been there and learned a couple of wards.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:20:32 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Faith , darshan, and meditation
Message:
Hey, Djuro, you forget, I was a premie. I did believe in Maharaji. I did experience something in his presense. I do believe that was because of what I believed him to be, not because of what he really is. I think the same is true for you.
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 03:45:57 (GMT)
From: sophiem
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Faith , darshan, and meditation via OZ
Message:
Oz never did give nothin to the tinman that he didn't, didn't already have.
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:33:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: sophiem
Subject: Faith , darshan, and meditation via OZ
Message:
So, who needs Oz, then?
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 14:39:36 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: On human nature and doing the right thing
Message:
I live in a little town, less than 2 miles square. The population is very racially and enthically diverse. Despite the small size and great diversity of the town, there has just recently cropped up an element of 'American History X' style racism, complete with swastikas and shaved heads. This has manifested through some high school boys, although it has been fueled by some adults who are known throughout the town as the real instigators. Ground zero for all this happens to be the on the street where I live, with the principal generators of the racist attitudes living about 100 yards down the street. On top of that, the person commonly known by everyone from the mayor to the police department to the average citizen who is aware of the problem, to be the primary party generating the hatred works for the town as the superintendent of public works. This is no secret to almost anyone who has gone to any town meetings or knows anything at all about the matter.

About a week ago, some of these budding skinheads chased a group of black kids up our street and one of the skinheads had a baseball bat....someone had thrown a small rock at the skinheads' house and broken a window. Thankfully, no one got hurt, but the news made the local and regional (NYC) print and TV news media. 'If it bleeds (or even comes close to bleeding) it leads', so the media mantra goes. There have been emergency town meetings and much talk about how to defuse the situation. These kids - the white ones, the blacks one, the hispanic ones, the asian ones - most of them grew up in this town. I watched them grow up with my kids from the time they were in kindergarten. Many of them, including the #1 skinhead kid, used to ride their little bigwheels up the sidewalk in front of our house. Now some of them are at each others' throats, all stirred up by narrowminded adults from within and from without our town who have deep prejudices.

The mechanisms to correct the problem are not laser-like. It's much more convoluted than that. Evidence, proof, testimony, and all that other legal stuff has to be satisfied, even though it's all common knowledge. Those few townspeople who witnessed the bat-wielding chase (which got the media airtime in the worst possible light) refuse to stand up and say what they saw out of fear for themselves and their families. The police have not been able to take more decisive action due to a lack of the technical details, even though almost every kid in town knows exactly what went down.

As this has been playing out locally, my thoughts have been reviewing what has been going on with us here in the conversation about all the things that happened with EV etc and with Maharaji at the 'helm' of the whole thing, even if not in writing. And without making any defenses or apologies, it has become more understandable to me how so many injustices occurred to some and were not reported or corrected for the same reason...fear. In the case of my town, I can understand that the fear is of physical violence. But what is the driving fear of a premie or a group of premies to not come forward to reveal real problems to the management or try to fix it? Fear of hell, of non-existence, of coming back as a worm and getting smashed on the sidewalk and eaten by ants, like the mahatmas said would happen if you reveal the techniques? Fear of saying or doing the politcally incorrect thing? How can that be? If Knowledge doesn't even equip someone to do the right thing and use common sense in a bad situation involving human beings - especially children - then what good is it? I don't just want my own head high and to hell with everybody else.

So while I am not thrilled with these local and premie-related life situations, I also understand a little better why the problems were not addressed and fixed right when they occurred. This is not a apology or a defense, just an observation.

Far as I'm concerned, the information gathered here can be very valuable to Maharaji and EV. If you take away all the insults and bad vibes, there is some very good advice and guidance here.
Sandy

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:17:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: On human nature and doing the right thing
Message:
Your cowardice is showing as usual. Look, andy, just because you're married to a cult member isn't our problem? Lots of people have expressed deep sympathies for you. It's a terrible crisis, no doubt about it. But fuck off if you think you can continue to insult our intelligence wtih this kind of whitewash simply because YOUR life falls apart should you ever simply face the truth.

You know, maybe 'cowardice' isn't the right word. Maybe it's asking too much of any person in your shoes to call a spade a spade and live with the consequences. But don't for a minute think you can use us here like this. THAT really is abusive. You should get lost if that's really all you're about. We're already out, Sandy. We'll talk with you sincerely if you're interested but I don't think even the gentlest person here wants to be used as your foil to rationalize why your world isn't necessarily falling apart. That's profoundly disrespectful on your part. What you need, I think, is another premie friend or so who also see what's wrong wtih this picture but who also can't afford, for whatever reason, to face it.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 20:08:46 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Evolution allowed me to help make two more men
Message:
And that's from an intelligent life source that I was allowed to pass on my genetics to two great young men. Guess I had something worthwhile to contribute after all.

What has your unintelligent life source allowed you to pass on lately, besides bad blood between people?

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:52:09 (GMT)
From: Dr. Ruth
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Er, that was an Erection (nt)
Message:
\o/
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:01:16 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Low blows from Jim as expected
Message:
Leave it to you to rub salt in the thing...I was expecting to hear echoes of my marital stuff from you. Nothing was said about this on this here thread, but you took care of that. When all else fails, just go for a weak spot and sweep the legs. Yes, we do agree that you are not from an intelligent life source. You are just an asshole who does not happen to subscribe to Maharaji and thinks he's a phoney....but all that Maharaji stuff does not cancel out the immutable fact that you are a complete asshole. And that is more aboput who you really are than your philosophy, the books and people you can parrot, or who you believe in or don't.

As for the 'we're out and you're not' attitude, I was not aware that this was a missionary movement or a marketing group that did not want to talk to anyone but hardcore interested parties. I thought it was a Forum. And you know what? It is a Forum and you are out of line, but I don't expect the FA to do anything about it. Some people here may not like certain things about me, but I bet they like your shit even less.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:06:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: On human nature and doing the right thing
Message:
Sandy,

I don't think Maharaji is interested in gaining from the evidence gathered here. For one thing, he knew about the evidence before we did. We're just revealing his dirty little secrets.

As for EV, well, the latest news about the little skits of mockery, at Amaroo, toward EV show just what EV is good for. It's Maharaji's front for taking the blame when things go wrong; it's his scapegoat.

What do you think about that, anyway, these 'comedy' routines at Amaroo, where everybody and everything associated with Elan Vital, WITH THE EXCEPTTION OF MAHARAJI, was made a mockery of? Do you think that's fair? And why would people want to make themselves a laughing stock for the benefit of one person? Doesn't that sound just a little fucked up to you? Does to me.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:20:52 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: On human nature and doing the right thing
Message:
Sandy,
I don't think Maharaji is interested in gaining from the evidence gathered here. For one thing, he knew about the evidence before we did. We're just revealing his dirty little secrets.
As for EV, well, the latest news about the little skits of mockery, at Amaroo, toward EV show just what EV is good for. It's Maharaji's front for taking the blame when things go wrong; it's his scapegoat.
What do you think about that, anyway, these 'comedy' routines at Amaroo, where everybody and everything associated with Elan Vital, WITH THE EXCEPTTION OF MAHARAJI, was made a mockery of? Do you think that's fair? And why would people want to make themselves a laughing stock for the benefit of one person?
Doesn't that sound just a little fucked up to you? Does to me.
-Jerry

Jerry,

As for the comedy routines, I won't say they are right or wrong, but I for one would not enjoy always being the brunt of jokes and not be able to poke some good clean fun at the poker once in a while. But if someone thinks they are being teased by the Lord Himself, I don't think that issue would come up, for that would change everything now, wouldn't it?

I do see what you mean about the very strong potential for EV to be the Costello to Maharaji's Abbott, Laurel to Hardy, Curley and Larry to Moe...it's a universal and eternal game, good cop/bad cop, smart guy/dumb guy classic. But to live that way, no I don't think it's exactly my cup of tea, either.

Does it sound fucked up, you ask me. For me, I am not comfortable with it. But I will not say it's fucked up for someone else to do it. That may be where they are at in their evolution and that is none of my business unless I am asked about it, which you just did.

ONE MORE THING...

I was walking this morning and sometimes a quote from a book or a song comes to me that is like an answer to a question I have out there waiting for a reply...

This morning a Biblical phrase came to me:

'Perfect Love cast out all fear.'

And I thought about how much fear has been a factor in the conversation here about how DLM/EV and Maharaji have spoken to and dealt with his people in private and sometimes in public too....

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 03:47:01 (GMT)
From: Investigative ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Child abuse reporting requirments for CA psychs
Message:
Does anyone else find this information relevant given recent information discussed here?

The legislature finds that there is a need to ensure that professionals of the healing arts who have demonstrable contact with child abuse victims, potential child abuse victims, and child abusers and potential child abusers are provided with adequate and appropriate training regarding the assessment and reporting of child abuse which will ameliorate, reduce, and eliminate the trauma of child abuse in a timely manner to prevent additional occurrences.

This training includes the study of the assessment and method of reporting sexual assault, neglect, severe neglect, general neglect, willful cruelty or unjustifiable punishment, corporal punishment or injury, and abuse in out of home care. The training shall also include physical and behavioral indicators of abuse, crisis counselling techniques, community resources, rights and responsibilities of reporting, consequences of failure to report, caring for a child's needs after a report is made, sensitivity to previously abused children and adults, and implications and methods of treatment for children and adults.

The state penal code requires that a state licensed psychologist who reasonably suspects that a child has been the victim of child abuse shall report that information to a child protective agency - at least within 36 hours of discovery of that information.

Comments anyone?

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:29:22 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Investigative ex
Subject: She's not a child anymore
Message:
You'd have to study the whole thing, and this is California law. First of all, Abi's not a child anymore, so why report to a protective agency? Those are child protective agencies and there's no child to currently protect.

What you've got is just the legislative intent portion, not the law itself. The legislature always says grandiose things in the intent. The nuts and bolts of reporting are in the law itself. You'd have to look at the whole statutory scheme, and look for stuff that's more like Abi's situation in the codes, and stuff that Valerio may be required to do.

There still may be some reporting that has to be done for any child abuse he finds out about, but then again, that may only be if she is having a professional consultation with him. If she's not a client, there may be no requirement -- you have to look at the law. But I'm going to be honest here. Reporting Jagdeo to California authorities for an incident that either happened in some other country or here, but the victim is now living half way across the globe, and the perpetrator is living in India is kind of reaching. Still, it's worth reading up. Do you know what code you are looking at, and what section number?

--f

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 11:22:16 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Investigative ex
Subject: Valerio is checkmated. everyone send this to him.
Message:
period.
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:43:54 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: I can't believe I forgot about this law....
Message:
Hi Janet,

DUH on me! I believe every state has this type of mandatory reporting law--all health care providers, teachers, school administrators, hospital administrators, etc. are mandated to call the police or report it to Child Protective Authorities. In VT this is taken VERY SERIOUSLY.

When I worked as a hotline volunteer on the Washington County Sexual Assault Crisis Team, we were not mandated reporters, but we elected to be mandated reporters as a policy of the agency. Thus, when we got calls, (most of which, interestingly, were not from current rape victims, but adult women survivors of sexual abuse in emotional/suicidal crisis), and we spoke to someone who disclosed child abuse happening, we reported it.

If Valario has information about this he is MANDATED to report it. The only glitch is the age of the victims. Yet it could still be going on where ever Jagdeo is which probably makes it more of a moral issue than a legal one.

My 2cents,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 17:00:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Analyze THIS!
Message:
This is simply amazing. It's as if they're shadow-boxing with us or something:

A transforming process

This afternoon, it was the Scandinavian 'saddhus' who stood at the top of the amphitheatre with their banner invitation inviting Maharaji to visit them. The informality of Amaroo has made these impromptu invitations an almost daily occurence, started by the Brazilians with a human chain of T-shirts bearing their message and then the Ecuadorians with another banner.

The northern Europeans took their cue from Maharaji's recent description of their homeland custom of jumping from saunas into freezing cold waters - a pastime worthy of rishis and saddhus.

Thus, Maharaji began by announcing that his European summer events would be confirmed 'any day now'; with, he hoped, a visit to Scandinavia included.

The relaxed, leisurely pace of these 'events in the bush' has also given birth to new and healthy satirical entertainment. Hardly a single element of the culture that has grown up around Knowledge was spared, as the small troupe of actors playfully mocked EV bureaucracy, teamwork, and the 'premie archetypes.' The stumbling attempts by the beer-swilling Aussie to tell his mate in the pub that he had just received Knowledge was perhaps most poignant of all.

Smartcards, you will be happy to know, are evolving into 'smartchips' which will be embedded in the forehead. Not only will they help people not to forget the techniques but they will ensure - with an electronic alarm built-in - that the required amount of practice is done each day.

Maharaji himself often seemed to laugh louder and longer than anyone in the audience at the comedy acts.

A mega-mega-event will be happening in Delhi this year, he told the audience which was now over 4500. Open to the public, 50,000 aspirants are expected.

He then briefly reminisced about the early days in England and how looking at the achievements of today it was clear that even dreams were 'limiting'.

But, he added: 'This is not a numbers game. It is about everyone who is interested. It is about those who have taken that challenge.'

He conjured up the image of a painter trying to paint the face of someone who was face was lit up by the subtle, heartfelt smile which comes from experiencing Knowledge.

'Whatever effort you make towards Knowledge, it will not go in vain. It will never go in vain,' he said.

Moving to a metaphor about how wild horses have their spirits broken so that they can be ridden, he surmised: 'Maybe one of the reasons the master is never understood properly by the world is that he takes this horse back to the wild and tries to mends the broken spirit .' If people should say that a wild horse is 'useless', the master, he said to loud applause, will simply say: 'So what?'

Maharaji returned to the theme of individual effort - that this was the crux of practising Knowledge. 'This is easy to forget. I don't know why. But it is the sweetest thing when it is remembered. Let the sweetness be in your life.'

The event was all but done, when Maharaji came to the keyboard to serenade the audience for the second and last time. He said he was not planning to cut a CD as he preferred to play live for the time being. He talked briefly of his eclectic musical tastes, saying his music contained a 'little twist and twang of everything.'

He began to play his uplifting, gentle, lilting music, then looking over his shoulder at the lightshow projected on an adjacent wall, he laughed: 'Pretty trippy stuff.'

Yes, Maharaji, you could say that!

More will follow here over the next few days, but you can stay in touch with the event by subscribing to the Elan newsletter at www.elanvital.org, or visit www.evnewsletter.org. A hard copy of the newsletter is appearing every day and this is then published on the net.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 20:04:01 (GMT)
From: bill--Do you figure that
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: the feet kissing and arti was a huge drip for some
Message:
of the -just rich enough to afford amaroo- premies?

Arti must have gone down rather poorly with some of the
zealots.

He must want to wear that crown again real bad.

When the ink dries on the checks in the darshan line, and they all land in thier homes, er, excuse me, apartments, (How many can afford homes after a lifetime of rawatism?) wont some of them have a hard time reconciling phase 2 with this new
phase three? Which is of course, just warmed over phase one.

Am I wrong to think part of this approach of his is a major
'fuck you' to us and all the 'world' that expects honesty
and some contrition from criminals.

Clearly he is pulling out all the lord schtick full bore
and clanging shut the prison doors on all the leftover
devotees that have not been able to leave his programming thus
far.

He even talked about how in the future they will say -you have so much wisdom-.

This site is even more needed now.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 20:23:55 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Analyze THIS!
Message:
The northern Europeans took their cue from Maharaji's recent description of their homeland custom of jumping from saunas into freezing cold waters - a pastime worthy of rishis and saddhus.

It's amazing. I wonder how many of these Europeans did this before M said it was a pastime worthy of rishis and sadhus. Let's just hope he doesn't get any ideas about arsenic laced Kool-Aid or something.

Hardly a single element of the culture that has grown up around Knowledge was spared, as the small troupe of actors playfully mocked EV bureaucracy, teamwork, and the 'premie archetypes.'

This is just too fucking transparent. I wonder if Maharaji was one of the characters being mocked. Ya think? I mean, he's only the guiding force in the organization. Not a cult, my ass!

The stumbling attempts by the beer-swilling Aussie to tell his mate in the pub that he had just received Knowledge was perhaps most poignant of all.

Hey, Catweazel, they're doing your biography!

Smartcards, you will be happy to know, are evolving into 'smartchips' which will be embedded in the forehead. Not only will they help people not to forget the techniques but they will ensure - with an electronic alarm built-in - that the required amount of practice is done each day.

They don't need that. They've already been programmed.

Maharaji himself often seemed to laugh louder and longer than anyone in the audience at the comedy acts.

Big surprise there. It's not as if he's never called them assholes in his life. Who doesn't like laughing at assholes?

'Whatever effort you make towards Knowledge, it will not go in vain. It will never go in vain,' he said.

Let me be the judge of that, okay, Big M? I beg to differ. You did say it was something within me. How would you know what that is, unless you're God or something? And we all know, you would never say you were that! So, let me be the judge of what's happening within me. You have no idea.

The event was all but done, when Maharaji came to the keyboard to serenade the audience for the second and last time.

Serenade? You sure you're using the right word there? Serenade? Sheesh!

He began to play his uplifting, gentle, lilting music, then looking over his shoulder at the lightshow projected on an adjacent wall, he laughed: 'Pretty trippy stuff.' Yes, Maharaji, you could say that!

Yes, Maharaji, you could say that. Fucking weird is what I'd call it.

Now, I've got to go outside and get some air. It's a beautiful day in New York.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 18:31:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Spin control
Message:
Thanks for the update. This stuff makes me want to hurl, so I only take it in small doses. I think that some of their marketing whiz corporate trainer types look at the whole situation (including EPO) and decided that the best way to desensitise the premies to the jibes is to make fun themselves. Of course this will never work, because none of the skits lampoon the Master.

They didn't have a skit of Maharaji yelling and cooing non sequiturs. They didn't have a skit of Maharaji raving on a couch with a bottle of cognac in his hand as premies bowed and scraped. And the skit about killing bicyclists and having someone else change places with you in the driver's seat is missing. Not to mention Monica Lewis' striptease in the hotel room.

No, don't worry Jim. They'll never get it right. But damn, I wish someone had been there with a tape recorder to tape M's keyboard playing. Of course, truth be told Fuzbee Morse or one of those other music gurus he has around there could have preset so many things into a synth that a monkey could have played it. Or a rat. Or a hamster.

Have a good trip with Laurie.

Love always --f

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 19:39:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yes and don't forget the Conehead factor
Message:
So true, Fransesca -- and this will have to be my one post for this part of the rest of the morning (it's noon already? Whatever). I've really got to get going here.

What strikes me more than anything about this report is how contrived, unnatural and downright fucking weird these people are behaving:

This afternoon, it was the Scandinavian 'saddhus' who stood at the top of the amphitheatre with their banner invitation inviting Maharaji to visit them. The informality of Amaroo has made these impromptu invitations an almost daily occurence, started by the Brazilians with a human chain of T-shirts bearing their message and then the Ecuadorians with another banner.What's with this 'impromptu' bullshit? And 'informality'? These pathetic 'invitations' have been the only authorized cult group expression for decades now. They were farcical then, all the staged remonstrations, the exaggerated, simplistic glee that seemed a little much to me even when I still thought Maharaji was actually the Lord of the Entire Fucking Universe Walking Around in a Kid's Body. Now they're like kinky kabuki dramatizations. Everyone pretends that he's the most popular Executive Friend Of Elan Vital (Wink, Wink), that the whoel world wants him and yes, that his time is so valuable but maybe, just maybe, if we ask sincerely ....

No, these guys are like coneheads. They've bit the cult's hook and swallowed the line that being just a plain, ol' regular human being is somehow wrong, not enough. So they lose all touch with normalcy. Yet, because they know that somehow CAN'T be right (they're not sure, even their cult leader's not sure), they play at being normal again. Coneheads. So they laugh too loud and then carefully document in their little notepads 'laughter at 3:17'. They're all spying on each other seeing who can best pull off the trick of pretending to be normal when you're anything but. Like I say, coneheads.

The northern Europeans took their cue from Maharaji's recent description of their homeland custom of jumping from saunas into freezing cold waters - a pastime worthy of rishis and saddhus.

Thus, Maharaji began by announcing that his European summer events would be confirmed 'any day now'; with, he hoped, a visit to Scandinavia included. Another notation in the conehead's report: Cult leader said 'any day now'. Please store for later assessment. No minutiae too trivial to note when one's obsessed with this staged 'normal human interaction'

The relaxed, leisurely pace of these 'events in the bush' has also given birth to new and healthy satirical entertainment.Again, an entry straight out of a conehead report back to planet zeon or wherever they came from. Picture Dan Ackroyd furtively writing: Successfully established a 'relaxed, leisurely pace' as instructed. Implementing stage two with 'healthy satirical entertainment'. Will now try laughter. Ho ho ho. Good, it works. Hardly a single element of the culture that has grown up around Knowledge was spared, as the small troupe of actors playfully mocked EV bureaucracy, teamwork, and the 'premie archetypes.' The stumbling attempts by the beer-swilling Aussie to tell his mate in the pub that he had just received Knowledge was perhaps most poignant of all.Ho ho ho. Repeat: ho ho ho.

Smartcards, you will be happy to know, are evolving into 'smartchips' which will be embedded in the forehead. Not only will they help people not to forget the techniques but they will ensure - with an electronic alarm built-in - that the required amount of practice is done each day. Truth becomes farce becomes truth becomes farce becomes truth becomes farce .... ho ho ho ho ho ho

Maharaji himself often seemed to laugh louder and longer than anyone in the audience at the comedy acts.Further conehead observations. Cult leader laughs louder, longer. We will now join in. Ho ho ho ho ho.

A mega-mega-event will be happening in Delhi this year, he told the audience which was now over 4500. Open to the public, 50,000 aspirants are expected.

He then briefly reminisced about the early days in England and how looking at the achievements of today it was clear that even dreams were 'limiting'.

But, he added: 'This is not a numbers game. It is about everyone who is interested. It is about those who have taken that challenge.'

He conjured up the image of a painter trying to paint the face of someone who was face was lit up by the subtle, heartfelt smile which comes from experiencing Knowledge.At this point, all coneheads experimented with subtle, heartfelt smiles. Note two coneheads over to right still in laughter mode. Ho ho ho ho. Remember to reinstruct them on Synchronization.

'Whatever effort you make towards Knowledge, it will not go in vain. It will never go in vain,' he said.

Moving to a metaphor about how wild horses have their spirits broken so that they can be ridden, he surmised: 'Maybe one of the reasons the master is never understood properly by the world is that he takes this horse back to the wild and tries to mends the broken spirit .' If people should say that a wild horse is 'useless', the master, he said to loud applause, will simply say: 'So what?'Cult leader moved to a metaphor. Maudlin message indicates need to reply with loud applause. Loud applause implemented.

Maharaji returned to the theme of individual effort - that this was the crux of practising Knowledge. 'This is easy to forget. I don't know why. But it is the sweetest thing when it is remembered. Let the sweetness be in your life.'

The event was all but done, when Maharaji came to the keyboard to serenade the audience for the second and last time. He said he was not planning to cut a CD as he preferred to play live for the time being. He talked briefly of his eclectic musical tastes, saying his music contained a 'little twist and twang of everything.'

He began to play his uplifting, gentle, lilting music, then looking over his shoulder at the lightshow projected on an adjacent wall, he laughed: 'Pretty trippy stuff.'

Yes, Maharaji, you could say that!Cult leader masterfully demonstrates mock throwaway line. Store line for future reference: 'Pretty trippy stuff'. Ho ho ho ho.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 02:01:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: god, jim, you said it. ewwwwww.double ewwww.
Message:
thats exactly how i used to feel. that nails the real face of 'synchronization' i hated there, and i hate it when it happens over here, too.

this sonofa bitch makes me so mad. here he is on the one hand perpetually editing out and removing any signs of initiative, originality or spontanaeity (no long rangers)
while telling the world and his drones that he's turning them back into wild horses and if theyre of no use to society that way,'so what'?
sounds like anarchy, looks like zombies.

what he's really saying is that HE is one wild horse that will never let anybody break, train, subdue or catch him, and if he's of no use to society, 'so what? his drones will give him anything he wants for the asking.

this is seriously fucked up shit.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 05:57:28 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Is this a sick joke or what?
Message:
Smartcards, you will be happy to know, are evolving into 'smartchips' which will be embedded in the forehead. Not only will they help people not to forget the techniques but they will ensure - with an electronic alarm built-in - that the required amount of practice is done each day.

I saw this earlier but did not say anything, but now that it is mentioned, I don't know where this asshole gets his jokes from. Bloody one stupid dumb sick weirdo. Maybe he stick one up his rectum and see if it works on him first.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:09:56 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Is this a sick joke from FV or what?
Message:
He pinched that joke from here, Salam. A couple of months ago we were joking about it and somebody (it may have been Thelma) suggested that the next step would be an embedded chip. He gets his best material from FV.

Oh, Glen Whittaker, sweetie darling, it's called stealing.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:48:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Is this a sick joke from FV or what?
Message:
Dear Pat:

I think we should put copyright symbols next to all our good jokes and then if they pinch them we can send cease and desist letters to EV for infringement of intellectual property.

----------------------------------

Here's the standards from the US Copyright Office:

'Form of Notice for Visually Perceptible Copies
The notice for visually perceptible copies should contain all the following three elements:

1. The symbol © (the letter C in a circle), or the word 'Copyright,' or the abbreviation 'Copr.'; and

2. The year of first publication of the work . . . ; and

3. The name of the owner of copyright in the work, or an abbreviation by which the name can be recognized, or a generally known alternative designation of the owner.

Example: © 2000 John Doe

-----------------------------

Of course, there are more ins and outs of IP law that I will not discuss on the forum, because I don't want to give EV any help. The precious little I know about it will not be used to benefit the kiss-butt soldiers.

Francesca

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:45:36 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Is this a sick joke from FV or what?
Message:
Good idea on copyrighting the jokes around here.

I, too, would like to hear what the goorat played...but, ummm, maybe not, too...icky!

The whole Amaroo event is nothing but a huge dog and pony show. Now the gooroo is performing on stage (of course, he's already failed at dancing)!!!

He gives DARSHAN, and claims he's no Lord. They sing arti and he's not the Lord, except that they are singing it to him, at him, while he's up on a high platform. So all the Darshanees will go back to their home towns and make all the premies who decided not to go feel jealous because they didn't get to tickle the toes of the Giant GURU MAN.

He's so transparent he's practically invisible!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 20:53:16 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Practically invisible -- right on
Message:
Cynthia:

Couldn't agree more. This site must be a major thorn in EV and M's side, because it is one of the few ways new recruits can find out what's really going on.

Bob had a great post down below -- that's since gone inactive -- where in about 2 short paragraphs he summed up the situation that has always been going on regarding coverup. They've always been hiding something, and never been up front about it. We knew it too, and I was part of the complicity. Stuff for new people -- not too much too fast, just the right approach. Didn't want to freak people out. Of course, if I'd thought this juju was bad, I wouldn't have done it. But we were all part of the trap. Normal people, at least to the people who'd listen to us.

Since the press isn't invited to inner circle stuff, and because there doesn't seem to be press interest in mole-ing in to Amaroo types of programs, this is where people find out the words to Arti, the real story, and what they are being schookered into.

love, f

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 09:43:12 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Flattery will get them nowhere.Koolaid,anyone?(nt
Message:
oy vey
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 16:59:10 (GMT)
From: jaan
Email: nowbeopen@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: do you still feel love?
Message:
Greetings to all ex and non ex-premies. I'm new to this forum. So forgive me if I'm covering old ground. I would like to get some of your feed back though.... So we spent all these years with M. Did we not meditate and get in touch with some higher force? Can we not benefit from this awareness of 'cosmic love' in our daily lives, whether M is in the picture or not. So on this basis have we not gained in some way and the whole thing isn't a total loss .....
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 18:26:01 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: jaan
Subject: do you still feel love?
Message:
More than I ever did in those days!
By getting rid of my peceived dependence on a master to get the keys to my inner treasures.
YOU own all those experiences. By having practiced k. for a period of time, and putting all your energy and sincerity in trying you have gained ways of perceiving reality which not everybody has. I found that it needs work though:
On so many levels of (sub)conciousness we have linked the person
of m. to our inner self. the work is to somehow detach these links because they are false.
The other work -for me - is to neutralize the opposing reactions in myself: I still eat at least 70 % meat in all meals, am apprehensive at religion and can't stand Indians!
Eventually I will have to become more neutral I guess.
The tricky part is that those links are programmed in on a deeper
level, just because you were working with higher energies and deeper levels of awareness than easily attained in daily life.
My way of dealing with this:
1) get a life
Only when building up my own life, with some stamina towards the job, study and relation, I was able to create a baseline in which I could develop some selfrespect. Normally I think one should have this when becoming an adult, unless things were a little too disfunctional when being a kid.
2) Match the intensity
Everytime a genuine, true moment in life occurs You are able to access that deep level of brainwashing and change it.
For me my 2 little girls have shown me that I have many, many more capabilities of love . They are able to induce a Love in me that is not just intenser, but also much more selfless and easier to work with in the real world. But yes, it could be that because of meditating all those years, I can easier relate on a pre-verbal level
3) I don't think I have found the answer to the reaction yet,
although being diagnosed with ADD (attention defecit disorder)
and taking Ritalin to fight the chaos within sure clarifies things.
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 05:17:06 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: eer yee, eer yee
Message:
who is taking the bench.

Well you're gonna cause a rumble.

My the hounorable members please stand up, the EPO parlement is in session.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 04:39:21 (GMT)
From: jaan
Email: nowbeopen@yahoo.com
To: Bob
Subject: 'knowledge is eternal and true'
Message:
Bob:

Thanks for your reply. Yes, it has been hard work, reprogramming my self as well. I think the major thing I had to let go of was the judgement that 'k' was the only truth and all others were lost. I personally never really associated 'k' with the body and personality know as 'm'. For me they were seperate, for me he held a focus on knowledge, and that was his role, to get people to focus on it and meditate. For me I can never reject 'k', because it is a fundamental path that is the basis of many different paths in so called eastern mysticism. For example in the path of 'kriya', made famous bt Paramahansa Yogananda, taught by the lineage of Lahiri Mahasaya 'k' is known as the simple kriyas. The kriyas you do when you do not have the time to perform the more complex ones. And in this path they say you can enter into samadhi by performing them. I know this to be true, the have been many times where I sat and practised 'k' for 4 or 5 hours and did enter into a state of 'sat chit ananda' or samadhi. I'm in Mysore, India right now practicing Ashtanga Yoga and a few months ago I was in Shri Anand Pur. Apparantly when Shri Hans declared himself the 'perfect master' (pm) the knowledge lineage split itself 3 ways. The link to Shree Nangli Sahib from ex-premie.org is another unauthorized off shoot. Shri Han's guru did not select him to be the next 'pm'. In Shri Anand Pur they have continued initiating people in 'k' and they call it 'Surat Shabd Yoga'. It is a beautiful place on a 1000 acres of land with a huge satsang hall and meditation hall built out of marble they took from the land itself. The neat thing about it was that the purity that we felt in the early stages of DLM was still in tact. They have never lost anything and no scandals. Just pure bhakti and service. The operate in total secrecy and do not propagate the 'k'. They were amazed that I found the place and were pleasantly amused with the fact that I was there. They queried me on the 'k' and verified that I had been correctly initiated and immediately accepted me into the flock as a long lost cousin who had finally found it's home. The thing that really struck me was the love that they have for one another. One of the most important qualities that was in tact was the fact that they had a great respect for each individual premie and that they jumped at any opportunity to serve each other. If you arrived at an airport near one of their communities anywhere in the world, they would personally pick you up, feed you and offer you accommodation without ever asking for anything in return. To be a premie in this community is a great honor and they love each other and respect the fact that we are all walking together towards that harmony in the 'light'. The fact that Shri Hans hijacked the lineage and the 'k' does not change the the fundamental truth of what it is. If you trully meditate you can feel that divine radiance from creations central sun. We can see through the unfoldment of 'm''s mission and all of it's problems, including his family rejection and his brother sat pal declaring himself the 'pm', that it was not blessed to succeed from the beginning. In order for truth to unfold in truth you need the blessing of the previous representative of that truth. If you hijack it then you are stepping out of the integrity of that fundamental truth and there has to be a karmic price to pay. The bonifide lineage of 'k' still has all of that original purity in tact. The interesting thing is how this current lineage began. The original guru 'Shree 108 Paramhans Dayal Ji Maharaj' met a mysterious yogi in Varanasi at Khedar Ghat on the Ganges River whose name was Kashi Kedarghat Wala Baba who initiated him into knowledge or Surat Shabd Yoga. This original guru then lived in the wilderness for 16 years without shelter, clothing and food and spent all his time meditating on 'k'. After this he became a wandering 'sadhu'. It was later on that he met a guruji with a large following and who recognized him as a saint. When this guruji was lying on his death bed he asked Dayal Ji to succeed him as the 'pm' for his large following. Dayal Ji agreed to become their 'guru' but did not want to have anything to do with the material holdings of the master. This is how 'k' and the concept of a 'pm' were united and started the idea of a mission with 'k' serving the guru. So for me, the way that I was able to shift some of the internal links with 'm' and 'k' was to educate myself and connect with the bigger story connected to this 'k'. My suggestion to 'm' would be for him to surrender to the current bonifide holder of the 'k' lineage. I have met him personally several times and he is a very compassionate man and I'm sure he would have some good 'AGYA' for 'm' so that he could set his karma straight .....

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:15:09 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jaan
Subject: Kashi Kedarghat Wala Baba ???????
Message:
You're pulling our legs or you have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire.
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 11:32:52 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: why do you say this, Pat? u know somthing?
Message:
as usual, I expect you hae the history to enlighten us on this.as our armchair yogi, its time to teach us yet again. what do you have that made you react like this?
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:09:49 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Jaan said 'of course there are all kinds of truth'
Message:
No, Janet, I don't know anything. I know quite a lot about yoga but very little about gurus.

To me Jaans' statement about ''the truth'' said it all. I know he/she means well and is sincere if a bit woo-woo. I just can't stand all the awe which is directed toward Hindu mumbo-jumbo.

I'm a born again Beethovian myself and think a country which invented apartheid (the caste system) and still marries off little girls to old men and turns a blind eye to widow-burning and has the largest number of slaves in the world has got nothing to teach me whatsoever.

As my dear departed mother said to me when I showed her Knowledge: ''Yes, God is love but you don't need to poke your eyeballs out to feel it.''

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 09:11:35 (GMT)
From: jaan
Email: nowbeopen@yahoo.com
To: PatC
Subject: Kashi Kedarghat Wala Baba ???????
Message:
You're pulling our legs or you have jumped out of the frying pan into the fire.

yes, I did not roll over and cry and complain ... I've been to India more than 10 times and I continued to investigate the lineage of 'knowledge' and 'see' for my self what it is all about. this was my way of healing my self and coming to terms with the 'false master syndrome'.

you see this knowledge or 'Surat Shabd Yoga' has a history. I tried for many years to pierce the veil, and the mahatmas (initiators) who were in the 'know', really did not want to say anything, because they knew it could create doubt and I assume that they wanted to protect their reputations and positions just like Michael Dettmers and all the DLM / DUO / Ela Vital VIP's did. These were the Mahatmas who were around in the early days.

Yes, this guy existed, in fact I was actually at Khedar Ghat in Varanasi after the kumbha Mela in Allahabad to try to find out more about him. Very difficult. I would like to find out who his 'GURU was, perhaps see a picture of him. However what is published about him is that he was a mysterious yogi who lived at 'Kedar Ghat, on the Ganges River in Varanasi, India. By the way, this GHAT or stair case leading down to the ganges river, is about 10 minutes walk from Chow Sati Ghat where the whole story of the immortal Maha Avatar Babaji and Lahiri Mahasaya, made popular by Paramahansa Yogananda unfolded. Varanasi also know as Kasi is a city that has a 3500+ year (some people say 5000) year history. This is also the place where they cremate bodies 24 hours a day. This Khedarghat Baba initiated who is known as 'Shree 108 Paramhans Dayal Ji Maharaj' or the 'first' guru (we are at the 'fifth' now) into knowledge. After the 'first' guru became an ascetic he used to instruct the first guru through dreams and visions. The rest of this story is included in a previous post to the forum .....

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:23:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jaan
Subject: Kashi Kedarghat Wala Baba and Obi Wan Kenobe?
Message:
You said: ''After the 'first' guru became an ascetic he used to instruct the first guru through dreams and visions.''

Were those wet dreams or just the regular kind?

Sorry, Jaan, I don't mean to mock you but it is so hilarious.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:27:35 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: jaan
Subject: Kashi Kedarghat Wala Baba ???????
Message:
Jaan, do you really believe in all these myths about taking off into the desert, revealing 'k' in dreams and visions, and such? There's a theory that mythology is just the brain's way of coping with it's own demise. It creates these myths to transcend the reality of life and death. By creating spectacular stories that cause spiritual awe and elation we feel somehow that we've gone beyond time and space into a realm more real and infinite. But the truth is it might all just be happenning in our heads, and nowhere else. That aside, hope you're having fun in India. I guess you've gotten use to the water by now, eh? Heh, heh.
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 04:04:14 (GMT)
From: jaan
Email: nowbeopen@yahoo.com
To: Jerry
Subject: happenning in our heads, and nowhere else
Message:
Jerry:

I think your right about that. I think most of it is happening in our heads. To me there is no difference between day dreams, dreaming while sleeping, and thinking about the future or the past. All of this is a process of images and visions that we get involved with within our selves. They cause us to have emotions and feelings as if they are real. The only time that we are truly present are when this process stops.

When you said:
Jaan, do you really believe in all these myths about taking off into the desert, revealing 'k' in dreams and visions, and such?

Well I am only stating the facts as they were presented to me. This is why I am trying to do my owm investigation to try to come up with my own facts and opinions by going to the source and places from where these stories come from.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 01:14:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Ooh ee ooh ah ah, Bing Bang Walla Walla Bing Bang
Message:
Anyone else remember the Witchdoctor song from the fifties or am I the oldest fart here? I just love these Hindu names.

Now, what about the one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people eater?

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 07:44:09 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: jaan
Subject: Whoever gave you that idea?
Message:
'In order for truth to unfold in truth you need the blessing of the previous representative of that truth'

Whoever gave you that idea? If there was a universal truth, it would be available to everyone and not just followers of obscure Indian sects or masters who did some sort of weird yoga.

Such 'truth' would be available to your Aunt Maud and her friends down at the Women's Institute. Such 'truth' would be available to six year old children or people serving prison sentences for murder.

It would be available and reckognised by religious people and atheists everywhere. It would be experienced by news-readers on TV and all sports commentators, together with all fashion models and car mechanics. It would be available and known by all the unemployed people whether they wanted a job or not and also, all cleaning ladies and farmers would be enlightened by it.

Army Generals would know this universal truth and so too would librarians and carpet layers. All the people who post here on EPO would know this truth and so too would all the people in Elan Vital, including Glen Whittaker. Even the Maharaja of Malibu would know this universal truth and so would you and I.

So what is universal truth? It cannot be hidden and nobody has exclusive rights to reveal it to anyone, otherwise it isn't universal truth.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:15:15 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: DOUBLE BINGO...Great Post Sir Dave...n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 09:04:14 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: BINGO..The Truth at last. nt
Message:
BINGO
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:48:12 (GMT)
From: jaan
Email: nowbeopen@yahoo.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Whoever gave you that idea?
Message:
'In order for truth to unfold in truth you need the blessing of the previous representative of that truth'

Whoever gave you that idea? If there was a universal truth, it would be available to everyone and not just followers of obscure Indian sects or masters who did some sort of weird yoga.

well, Sir Dave:
I am speaking from personal experience. This is not what I have read in books. I am sure that you already 'know' or understand what I'm about to say. However, let's get it out there and on the record for all to 'weigh' in on. OK, here we go .....

Of course, if one has not experienced 'truth', then it really does not exist except as a theory pro or con, in ones mind and therefor for such a person it does not exist.

I agree with what you say. 'truth' is available for everyone and 'is' truly for everyone, because the truth is that we all have the same life ... life force ..... which we can 'feel' as life and depending on how finely 'attuned' to it you are ... 'like a flame that does not flicker', one can actually feel a pure love or ones 'divinity' flowing from within it. of course, this is my experience .... of course there are all kinds of truth ... fire is hot ... ice is cold ... this is true, however, what I am talking about is the awareness of a spiritual love presence, a higher force, a pure love, not exclusively 'maharaji's' love, but a universal love or cosmic love a spiritual force capable of being felt by all living beings ..... of course, my Aunt Maud could reveal it to the world if she was born with an attunement and an inborn awareness of it.

The statement as I'm sure you know: 'In order for truth to unfold in truth you need the blessing of the previous representative of that truth' was used as a way to describe the passing of the 'mantle of spiritual power' in the lineage of succession from one 'truth' guru to his or her 'closest' or possibly purest disciple, so that this disciple could then be a pure vessel for the 'dharma' to continue as a living example of one who is 'ONE' with the 'TRUTH' and therefor authorized by disciplic succession to reveal it. So the point I was making was that 'SHRI HANS' was not chosen as the bonified successor and he 'HIJACKED' the process, which was doomed to fail as we have seen with 'PREM PAL' and 'SAT PAL' fiasco and as a result ex-premie.com appeared out of the ethers. Oh yeah, he was a good show man, and millions of people fell for it, and his son, PREM PAL, innocently got sucked into it, however, he still has life and he could set the record straight, like KRISHNAMURTI did with the Theosophical Society, by announcing that he was not an AVATAR and the whole process was bogus.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 14:44:38 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: jaan
Subject: Consider this idea then
Message:
If India and Pakistan did finally lose it and drop a few nuclear bombs on each other whilst the current 'embodiment of truth' was hanging out in Hardware or wherever, you'd be well stuffed.

No embodiment of truth and no devotees left to pass the mantle onto.

You know, the Roman Catholics will say a similar thing to you about the Pope. So too will the Muslims in Iran. It's all just religion and in my view, no nearer any truth than the Gerry Springer Show.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 15:14:03 (GMT)
From: jaan
Email: nowbeopen@yahoo.com
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Consider this idea then :-))))))
Message:
Dear Dave:

you said: It's all just religion and in my view, no nearer any truth than the Gerry Springer Show.

Of course this could be the brand of 'truth' that you prefer, but somehow I doubt it ...

Your right, it's too bad that the science of truth has gotten into the hands of religious charlatans and fanatics who have had millineums of experience to develop expert brain washing techniques. Too me the ability to truly do meditation is a human birth right. It's up there with breathing, eating, sleeping and f\o/king (spelling???), it is so fundametal. To be able to turn inside, activate your inner antenna and receive love rays from the some place some people call the source or central sun that causes your heart to open like a flower to the sun .... what a concept .... Of course, try learning this from your average public high school teacher. Or the millions of other clueless people sleep walking around this world. Unfortunately, these so called mystical traditions like the few you mentioned (Roman Catholics, Muslims in Iran) are the custodians of some of these processes which forces a so called 'truth seeker' to sift through all of the possibilites and hopefully not get lost in the process. Christanity is one that really gets to me ... their concept of GOD is sadism, worshipping some guy who is nailed to a cross with blood dripping down ... what a sick concept .... they should ban this violence from the churches and the innocent minds of all these little children ... ultimately I don't really think you need all these masters, you just need somebody to initiate you in the process of meditaion if this is not available as a norm in your culture. i like this Sufi who said ... forget about all these religions, just being alive is a mystical process in it self ... I believe that ultimately when you die and if there is such a thing as reincarnation then the only thing you really take with you is the wisdom gained through living through all these experiences, ultimately your religion and path does not matter, only the wisdom gained, which manifests as intuition about whats good for you and bad for you in your next life .....

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 10:30:42 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: jaan
Subject: Whoever gave you that idea?
Message:
hi Jaan
So what you are saying here, is that there really IS
RIGHT NOW ONE, ONLY ONE, TRUE MASTER,, WALKING ON THIS
EARTH,,,and he is the one you know.????????

ulf

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 14:12:55 (GMT)
From: jaan
Email: nowbeopen@yahoo.com
To: Ulf
Subject: TRUE MASTER ????
Message:
Ulf:

You said:
So what you are saying here, is that there really IS
RIGHT NOW ONE, ONLY ONE, TRUE MASTER,, WALKING ON THIS
EARTH,,,and he is the one you know.????????

Here is a long winded answer to your very good question. Actually I am simply sharing what I've been able to uncover regarding the history of this knowledge since I stopped taking 'M' very seriously. I decided to investigate it deeper since I had given 10 years of my life to it. I always felt good about 'K' but as 'M' got older I lost interest in him more and more. Since I travel to India a lot, I discovered that 'M' was not the only game in town. So I have had the opportunity to meet a few more players in the 'K' game. They were very nice people and their communities were amazing to be in. It was really nice meditating in marble TAJ MAHAL style meditation halls in India with hundreds of premies ... that bliss was definitely there :-)))) It's like going to church. Sometimes I go, and a lot of the times I don't.

Is this guy the true master, I do not know, each person has to make up their own mind about it. I can tell you that it is the lineage with the blessing of the previous masters. Do they do the puja, arti, full pranam thing ???? Does the master zip around in a Darshan Mobile????? YES, it is a trip to see. However, for me, I'm taking it slow, it's like I've already had an affair with one guru and I'm not so sure I want to rush into any lifetime commitments to quickly, if you catch my drift.

I'm really not here to promote, however, I'm happy to share some contact information for all of those who want to continue doing 'bhakti yoga' or get another perspective on the whole thing.

I actually feel that I do not need a master right now, and that the master is within and its 'ME'. I have enough experience to walk it alone at this point. I do take te opportunity to be initiated in other techniques like kriya yoga (where 'K' is known as the simple kriyas) when I feel it will help me deepen my experience or connection to the source.

I do like 'spiritual' company, so I like to travel where large groups of people go to celebrate truth .... I recently was at the kumbha mela for example (75,000,000 together) .... The other day I checked out SAI BABA (20,000 people per day) .... it's all a lot of laughs and very interesting to me ....

I think the thing that concerns me about ex-premies, and it's really none of my business, because people can do what they want with there lives, is that people seem to have thrown out the baby with the bath water. what I mean is, so people are dissapointed with 'M', but does that mean that 'K' is bull shit????? I still feel that powerful divine love within, even though 'M' is not in the picture. So who was 'M' really, to me he provided an opportunity, through his organizations and communities of meditators to find a support system to get connected to the source ... it's like when the space shuttle takes off at some point it drops the 1st stage booster rocket as it enters the edge of space, because it is not needed or useful any more. it the same for me I dropped the whole 'M' thing when it did not serve. I do still go to an occasional program to see 'old' friends ... I was one of those who stopped kissing the feet because I thought it was absurd to have my path be dependent on the spiritual power comming from the feet as well as I never moved into an ashram because I was very clear that I was a house holder and not the celibate monk type. So overall, I really don't have much to bitch about ... I did not give up too much of my power, in fact I think I gained some :-))))

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 20:37:35 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: jaan
Subject: TRUE MASTER ????
Message:
Jaan

I understand what you are saying , but i could never be
into a movement with a leader again.
It is all over for me
I still do meditation , and i sometimes it is good
it makes me relax
but after M , i cannot and will never again
give the credit of my meditation , to somebody else.
It is mine and mine alone
and i dont say to myself that it is GOD
there is no need for that, For me
I feel that this whole idea off god , aim, purpose ,ect, ect.
Only makes people very unhappy.
for myself i think that , nobody can know god
The nearest we can get to it is to say ,,perhaps
And then go on ,,and face the world.
The world as it is to most of the people here.
Not a utopia world as M`s, or another leader
but the world as it looks like when you go out of your door.
our own world.

Best Ulf


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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:22:13 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: jaan
Subject: Jaan I'm glad that you haven't taken another guru
Message:
Guru's are unnecessary for people who are self-motivated. I do the kriyas according to the traditional way and have done so for 30 years and many ex-premies also still meditate. We just don't talk about it or try to promote it as THE TRUTH. It is too personal and subjective.

I do not criticize your approach. I know you are sincere but for me my main focus here is to let people know that they do not need gurus. Wandering saddhus have been teaching each other dhyana for thousands of years without the need for guru organizations.

And I am especially allergic to them when they use the word GOD.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:16:56 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: AMEN!! Sir Dave. NT
Message:
l
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 04:11:06 (GMT)
From: jaan
Email: nowbeopen@yahoo.com
To: PatC
Subject: Cheers, Thanks for sharing !!!
Message:
I wish you all my very best.

Jaan

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 07:53:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: jaan
Subject: And I wish you the very best to Jaan
Message:
I hope I didn't offend you by making fun of your posts. I realize that you are serious and sincere and I am so irreverent. I also really enjoy meditating but I just don't approach it in quite the same way as you do. I wish you success in your search.

I don't like to talk about meditation here but, if ever you want to, I'll talk to you by email. I wish you peace and joy.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 16:12:19 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: technique 3- 'the word'
Message:
After I quit interacting with the cult-10 yrs back- I did a qi-gong ( from tai-CHI and KUNG fu) class with a Chinese master (Shen) .
This guy revealed a much more effective way to experience this meditation technique plus an interesting explanation:
Standing is more effective than sitting.
Stand in the way the Chinese martial arts teach, with slightly bent knees, and a very straight back.
You have to actually stretch your backbone, like you are pulled up by your hair, without this all efforts are fruitless.
Center of attention low in the abdomen, take time to find the balance. You should try to feel the energy.
while starting to breathe in ,pull up, contract the anus. (I am not trying to be funny here).
While breathing in concentrate on the energy flowing up the spine till in your head. Apply the tongue to the roof of the palate. This is a switch to connect the midline meridians (I forgot the proper names, this is in the acupuncture literature).
This allows the energy to flow down to the lower abdomen while breathing out.
The breathing should not be done too deliberate.
Every time you do this the energy builds up, you can feel this very strongly.
After a little while, when the room is not too bright you will start seeing colours before your eyes, this is the energy activating the centers in the head corresponding to structures in the midbrain. He also mentioned the possible sensations of sweet tastes occurring when doing the tonguelock. Again, the buildup of energy triggers the midbrain- (2/3 of the taste neves go straight into the autonomous nervous system,never causing any sensation, but causing to regulate digestion etc).
He said that he picked this up in china, and that the Japanese are aware of it. He was actually surprised that this technique was a tradition in India when I told him, he thought it was only imitated recently. He thought it was stupid to believe this was a way to experience God. He did point it out as an effective way to charge yourself with energy (qi, chi).
Being highly charged with energy one gets brighter, and to an extend, some somewhat supernatural powers, like seeing chi, healing. an improved health and.... being better in fighting!
He did not mention the soundtechnique, but I did only a few classes. In other exercises we ourselves made plenty of sounds, but these were more like the ones in ninja movies
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:36:21 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Christ that sounds bloody complicated
Message:
to me Bob.I prefer to sit on a recliner with my feet up nice and comfy and then I can go inside and do my technique which is simple and makes me feel rather good.I must've stumbled across my own switch to release lots of lovely chemicals.THat's my story and I am sticking to it.
I used to do tai chi and then attained a brown belt in Tae kwon do.Looking back on that phase all I can remember is a lot of pain.As far as standing in the horse stance and meditating,I could'nt imagine anything worse,but if it works for you mate go for ir.I can't imagine going to the movies and standing in that position amd actually being able to enjoy the movie too much.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 18:14:16 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: Loaf@superheros.as
To: Bob
Subject: Bob.... I too did Tai Chi mny yrs ago...
Message:
and I remember blowing off rather a lot... (is it only the Brits who say that ?)... this also produced sound.

Did you read PatC's fascinating post about the order of the techniques some while ago ? I am too full of wind and food to summon the energy to look for it now ... but it was very interesting and Pat owes me an ice cream now because of my endorsement. apparantly number 1 is really number 3... and Number 2 was originally Number 4, whereas numbers 3 and 4 should have been 1 and 2.

it made sense when he described it..I cant be learning new things any more... so I will continue to call them as we always have...

I had better go - I am full of trapped 'Holy Name'... I must let off some 3's.....

Yours sincerely

Mahatma Loaf

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 06:01:20 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Bob.... I too did Tai Chi mny yrs ago...
Message:
bloody confusing, init?

and here we are, trying to figure out the purpose for life. Sheesh kabab, hamburgers and beer.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:18:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: No wonder we're so queer, Salam
Message:
Mahaharajuju taught us the techniques backwards.
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:34:52 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: am not queer.
Message:
Am mental.
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:54:27 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: So, I'm a fruit; you're a nut. Who's vegetable? NT
Message:
j
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 12:00:36 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: everybody
Subject: 'word'
Message:
To tell the truth, I do not work with this. But I wanted to post it because it did give me a much stronger experience, more authentic, and at the time it was a milestone to break free. Also it helped dispel the myth about lineage of satgurus. Suddenly there was a tradition, possibly even older than the 'knowledge' tradition, totally independent from it, which gave a much stronger experience similar to that of m. And I got a somewhat reasonable explanation of the phenomena one gets while practicing, but without the mumbo jumbo of grace, the master, and all that crap.
When I would want to meditate I would do this approach.
Comlicated? Yeah in words. This stuff is easier picked up in a class, or training, just like there are very few folks who can learn ballroomdancing from a book. This is also true for a 'knowledge session' , which of course has nothing to do with
pathetic devotee behavior, or the need of giving the reins of your life to a master.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 15:27:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Amaroo's over - where's Abi's 'public apology'?(nt
Message:
hmmmmm?
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 06:24:41 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Why should child molestation?
Message:
Why should child molestation bother Maharaji? It didn't happen to any of his children now did it?

See, we are dealing with some one who is truly immoral. Evil even. And I don't use that word evil lightly.

He's counting on Abi dring up and blowing away. Sooner or later the incident will be forgotten. In-any-case, what can happen to him anyway? Nothing has and nothing will. Not even something as dirty as this has surped his power.

Disgusting.

I gotta go smell my daffodils or something. This makes me ill. And to think that there are all those poor souls, premies they are called, who are none the wiser.

By-the-way, I am totally out of patience with Sandy. He's either got to shit or get off the pot as they say.

Regards, Tonette

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 05:18:47 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Well from what I heared
Message:
I was e-mailed. To the wrong address but.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 17:13:33 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: M
Subject: Yes, Maharaji we were all waiting
Message:
but yet again you have let us down again

It seems sorry really is the hardiest word. But its about what we have come to except from you. All talk and no action or any responsibility.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 00:05:56 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: kev
Subject: When will people understand?
Message:
Maharaji is just a show. Nothing more. He's a stage act and he's as hollow and empty as a bell. You know the old saying don't you - 'Empty vessels make most noise'.

He has no interest in these pesky little problems that keep cropping up. He'll do the bare minimum to protect himself and then forget about them.

I have heard some of Maharaji's recent satsang and perhaps it's the wisdom of age but I can more easily suss people out now and he is completely without any sincerety. He's as deep as a tea spoon. He'll just keep spounting the same old vacuous nonsense and some people will continue to lap it up.

He's a rather bad actor but some people don't see through him. So the sooner people here start realising that Maharaji's crocodile tears about Abi was just an act, pure and simple, the sooner they'll realise that Maharaji doesn't care two hoots about victims of child abuse any more than he cares about the people he fucked up over the years.

Best not to project normal everyday human emotions like compassion onto Maharaji. You'll get more compassion and understanding from your next door neighbour, that's for sure.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 01:39:04 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: right on dave...nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 19:44:43 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: You want that dime sent where?
Message:
I could send it to Jim if you want to maintain your
private address. He could send it to you, with HIS
10 as well:)
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 03:24:23 (GMT)
From: bill--on second thought,
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: if Abi's dad was still there rawat mentioned it in
Message:
some obscure way. I bet if I see the transcripts I can find it.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 15:22:57 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: the little boy that could not
Message:
Just stepped on a broken sprinklerpipe while doing yardwork-barefeet-. While the bleeding is slowing down, I've got some time to post. this morning I spent more than an hour just reading up! This week on the forum brought about multiple vieuws, of course deeply coloured by my own.
One way to vieuw is of a withering cult crawling towards a slow extinction, probably with the death of a few diehards.
This was my vieuw before visiting the site, because in 10 years,
of which 7 in the USA, I never ever encountered any sign of EV, the maha or anything related, that means in normal life, not looking for it.
The other vieuw is of a very wicked, scheming opportunist with many layers of protection, and nobody really knowing where his tentacles begin and end, with many 'sleepers' who have the potential to be rerecruited if the right buttons are pushed.
It is hard to make a judgement, after all we have been lured in the past by a boy genius who never grew up.
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 06:27:16 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: sorry, HE ain't no GENIUS!
Message:
But very good at being a 'Shake-down-artist!'
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 16:21:08 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: the little boy that could not
Message:
One more question, and this is about demographics:
How many people actually visit the EPO website. How many read the forum?
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 21:28:53 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Forum Stats
Message:
The number of messages read each day currently averages about 7000. The number of frequent posters is currently about 20, with about 50 intermittent posters and others who appear and then disappear. There are about 200 messages posted each day. If we assume each regular poster on average reads half the messages, and each intermittent poster reads only 10% of the messages, then the posters acount for 3000 of the messages read each day. If we also assume that lurkers read on average 10% of the messages each day, and on average only stay around for a week, then the number of lurkers a month is about 1000.

Hey, I know all these assumptions are debatable, but it does seem that a lot of people are reading here.

Forum Admin

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:47:14 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Forum Stats. Question.
Message:
Some people have DSL and they can wiz in and out of posts, do you think that may affect the number of posts that are being read.

I know that with my 56k modem, it take ages to do anything so I only read the first few messages and leave the rest.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 21:46:16 (GMT)
From: Don't Know It All
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: yes debatable
Message:
My browser for some reason loads twice each time I click on here
to read or whatever. Are you counting hits or real analysis?
Sorry to be so picky, I'm usually on the other end of usage stats reaquests so have learned to be careful.
Or not sorry, and while I am at it, a pet peeve. I wish FA's and PAFA's (People Around Forum Admins) would stop posting that they know who so and so really is, who is posting under other aliases, and why, all the other tidbits of info you sorta drop on us and then run w/o really saying anything.
It is annoying. So you and the PA-you are able to know this - either tell us or don't , this hinting is annoying.

Selene, blame it on the cold, whatever.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 21:54:11 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Don't Know It All
Subject: ps now I feel bad sorry.
Message:
Some would say I have authority issues, huh :)
can't imagine why. Sorry I am a brat. You can erase this and above post if you want and don't tell me you can't w/o erasing whole thread because I have seen you do it. ooopppsss I'm doing it again!
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 06:12:42 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: FAs don't do that
Message:
erase threads. It's a bug in the system that attacks all posts aimed at Jim. I though you knew better.

wa? no, I can't .

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 21:26:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: I know better
Message:
Than to bother about the FA's. Just was soooooooo sick yesterday.
Have strong antibiotics now answered your post below.
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 08:22:06 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: well me dear
Message:
get better. And don't you bother your little head with my rambbling, I can't understand it.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 15:21:56 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Do M's Hindu followers dig his love of 'cow pie'?
Message:
Just listen to this guy wax lyrical about what he loves most (you can almost taste his enthusiasm!):

.
.
.

YOU JUST GO MMMM!
Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Amaroo, Australia 26 Apr. 2001

In India the original form of sugar, before refined
sugar waltzed into the country, was goor. The
way we used to make it when I was a little kid on
the farm - I used to love watching the stuff being
made - was that they take a huge vat, and they
take the sugarcane and they juice it. And they
put it in this huge vat and they keep stirring it,
and keep stirring it and it keeps getting more
concentrated and more concentrated, and when
the water evaporates it gets really thick. And the
when it gets really thick they mold it into the
shape of a pie. Kind of like cow pie, not like the pie here. They
could it (sic) into the shape of a pie and then they store it, and then
they eat it. They'll eat that. They'll put it in their chai or they'll
put that in their dinner - it's delicious! It's very strong, you have
to have a real palette for it. But it's delicious.

And this is how in this bajan the experience is being described,
that a person who is mute, is eating goor. He can't tell you how
good it is. And it goes on about how beautiful it is, how incredible
it is to go into that place, to experience that beauty, and how is
it? It is like a mute person eating goor. He can wiggle and he can
waggle, and he can smile and he can go 'mmmm'. That's it!

endquote

...

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 15:25:58 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: we did
Message:
lots of goor-y details
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 11:30:19 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mr. Maha advises against smoking cigarettes
Message:
This is from the Satsang of Maharaji on Nov. 14th, 1972. Keep in mind that he was working under the alias of Guru Maharaj Ji at the time. He was also only 14 at the time. Since then he has matured and now smokes himself.

''....and the thing is many people have been going out smoking. Well,you know who it is.....And smoking isn't necessary either because it's something completely artificial you are doing when you smoke cigarettes, and I don't want you doing thiese things..When we are getting into the internal reality, why should we start getting into artificial things? I do not understand this. We have to go more and more into reality......''.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 01:14:35 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Mr. Maha advises against smoking cigarettes
Message:
We have to go more and more into reality......''.

Good advice, Maharaji. Why don't you try it and come down off of that throne of your's?

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 12:32:44 (GMT)
From: SURE
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Mr. Maha advises against smoking cigarettes
Message:
Yeah, sure. Go against artificial things. Yatchs are ok. Very real stuff. Money in Europe. That's real stuff. Mansions. Real stuff. he told us to go against the world when he was building his. WHAT A MAN!

MAHARAJI, YOU ARE AN ASSHOLE!!

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 19:03:43 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: SURE
Subject: Suck the ...
Message:
At the Kissimmee program in the '70s, Rawat ranted about the evils of Coca Cola, he talked about drinking Coca Cola and finding a rat at the bottom of the bottle. He yelled at the top of his lungs 'Suck the rat! It's full of Coca Cola!'

Well Rawat, all I can say to you is

'SUCK THE CIGARETTE! IT'S FULL OF TAR AND NICOTINE!'

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:04:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I got email from hanuman
Message:
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 01:53:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dorje Phurba
Subject: where would you be..
To: pdconlon@yahoo.com

without guru maharaji, you would not be on this website, coz there would not be any such site..

whom could you offer all your exquisite infos on maharaji and the radhasoami connection, that u

just discovered and which i knew of since about 29 years, who cares ???

who will care about what happened on this a planet in about 30 million years?

it's all vanity..and all the vain people of epo , but the glories of lord ram and

h a n o o m a n will be remembered in the next 300 millions of time cycles..

so you had me banned from the forum, who cares.. u insulted me and laid

words in my mouth i did not say..who cares..

i hope you have a good time on the forum if that is all you are left with..

bolie shri satgurudev maharaj ki jai........

u know kerouac died a lonely man in front of the tv with a sixpack by his side

hanuman

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 00:47:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hanuman, I did not get you banned from FV
Message:
You got yourself banned because you posted deceitfully under several aliases and stalked me and tried to creep me out with your superstitious mumbo-jumbo.

Now, I am sure that if you posted under your real name and told us a bit about yourself like where you live etc, then the FA would unban you and you could come back and talk to us again.

I may not be Dr Doolittle but I am not averse to talking to monkeys as long as they speak English as I do not yet understand monkey talk. I do understand my dogs though and they give real good darshan.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 00:58:32 (GMT)
From: From Hanuman
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: to PatC via email and my reply
Message:
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 01:21:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dorje Phurba, awarenezz@yahoo.com
Subject: always you
To: pdconlon@yahoo.com

hi pat, u guys are funny..is this coming thru yer filters..are you guys incapable of corresponding on a personal level or are you

always teamed up like a cattle-a-sheep..you had to post that on da forum, heh, i knew u couldn't resist..

now ya know who i really am..francesca has enlightened you about vajrakilaya, hmh??clever gal, she is..

can't you guys have fun without constantly lamenting about prempal...oh well, i think i better shut up,

i should have better read my grandpa's bible, wasn't there something about 'pearls before swine'.

now u can post on da forum ' hanooman calls ex-premies swine' that would be typical of you, pat c.

but you know i could care less, for me you guys don't even exist!!!!

i'm just playing on and talking to myself, lonesome man i am......

i pity the poor immigrant.......regards from hanuman..

wonder if ya dare to mail me this time or do u have to request support from your exes clan????

over and out

I replied to him thus:

Hi Hanuman,

I would be very willing to correspond with you by email if I knew who you are. But you hide behind so many aliases that I can have no respect for you. I posted your email as a joke which is what you are to me unless you step out from behind your cowardly alias.

Sincerely,

Pat

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 06:34:45 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Well, he isn,t playing with a full deck
Message:
He's not just lonely, Hanuman appears psychotic!
I hope he/she has the family and friends around him that can help this person. This person is obviously not right in the head.
If you e-mail him, don't jerk his chain. You may end up flushing unintentionally. Just my opinion. By gosh, this person needs some serious help.

Kind regards, Tonette

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:58:59 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Thanks for seeing Mr. h in such a balanced ...
Message:
and humane manner. We are all human beings after all, and though we don't want to put ourselves in harm's way, some of these people cannot find help from the premie community, so they look here. I appreciate your view.

Every guru attracts his share of desperate fringe element folks. I used to do audience security and we'd have a list of folks to watch out for at programs -- for everyone's protection. For the most part, I don't remember seeing many of them as 'bongos' in a dehumanizing light, at least not for me. Living in Los Angeles for 6 years, I knew about 2/3 of them as acquaintances, and thus couldn't see them as cartoon characters. They were flesh and blood people who came to satsang regularly, and only misbehaved on occasion.

I was assigned to follow one guy at Kissimmee for part of a day and he was as meek as a lamb that day. He had lived in my community in LA and I was acquainted with him. Most of the time, seemed just like everyone else. But he had to be carried out of Loyola Theater (the then satsang hall in LA) when he freaked out in the middle of satsang one night because of an explosive outburst. Took about 3 guys to carry him out of there.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:22:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Not playing with a full deck. I'll be nice
Message:
If I find the time, I'll send him a kind email.
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 04:02:00 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: to Francesca and Pat C
Message:
Thank you so very much for seeing my point without such a well written reply as your(s).

I think Hanuman, as well as Sandy, are very fragile people.
Talk about being 'beaten up' by the cult. Most of us here have been 'beaten up' in one way or another. I, for one, feel as if I have been raped! Spiritually or physically or mentally what exactly is the differance?

Anyway, thank you for being kind to Hanuman: whomever this person is.

Keep on Truckin'
Kind Regards, Tonette

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 08:01:17 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: 'beaten up' by cult' - thanks Tonette for reminder
Message:
I have to watch myself. I get into joining in with gangbanging premies here and I do not mean to. My beef is with Rev Pimple Rawat not premies.
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 01:09:41 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I got email from hanuman
Message:
it's all vanity..and all the vain people of epo , but the glories of lord ram and h a n o o m a n will be remembered in the next 300 millions of time cycles..

Hanuman? Wasn't he that little fucking monkey in Hindu scripture? Wow, he's gonna live for another 300 million time cycles? And then what? He dies?

It's a little disconcerting, sometimes, how people get carried away by their imagination. It's kind of difficult, being surrounded on all fronts by magical thinkers, to keep your feet on the ground, but I feel I'm getting better at it.

u know kerouac died a lonely man in front of the tv with a sixpack by his side

We all die lonely, hanuman. At least Kerouac went out with a buzz or, at the worst, too drunk to care. How are you going to die, Hanuman, better than Kerouac did? Is there really a good way to die, I mean, something preferential over the other?

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 02:57:02 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Oy, Pat!
Message:
I'm sorry that you have to get mail like this - sheesh!

And I'm not sure what Kerouac has to do with it. Kerouac was - weird as this may seem - kind of a mama's boy. He was living with his mother when he died - just as he had on and off his whole life. Yep, he did die in front of the TV in his mom's house. So what?

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 03:06:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: He thinks I'm a degenerate like Kerouac and
Message:
will die a lonely old fag masturbating in front of my TV watching porn. I just hope I'm high at the time. Actually I'm already older than the Dharma Bum was when he died.

PS I thought that my weird emails had ended since I talked about them here and exorcised my own fears.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 03:16:19 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I'm sorry
Message:
...that you're still getting them. Posting them is the right thing to do, IMHO.

I'm not in the mood to suffer fools gladly today (snicker). And I don't see why such a perfect devotee feels the need to spam you or anyone, but oh well...

P.S. Kerouac was a sexist pig, IMHO.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:21:29 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Kerouac OT
Message:
Probably queer, dear. But closeted and paranoid like most of his generation (even mine) so he came off as misogynistic and homophobic in spite of having had sex with several men and fathering a daughter. Well she got even didn't she.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:14:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: my TV sucks
Message:
Looks kinda like the color scheme on Ms Powers web site ever since something when pop a few weeks ago, tinges of green on top and psychedelic striations on down but since Mexico TV I have gotten used to it. What a way to go huh? A six pack and a good video or gagging on my toungue whilst leaning on a baragon... camped out in the desert....hmmm no contest though I'd prefer a bottle of Merlot to a six pack.

who will care about what happened on this a planet in about 30 million years? it's all vanity..and all the vain people of epo , but the glories of lord ram and h a n o o m a n will be remembered in the next 300 millions of time cycles..

Translation : THIS life does not matter. Why care about this life? Your use of EPO for friendship, support, entertainment, etc. is vanity but hopping on a plane across the world to camp in the dust to kiss feet is glorious indeed. hanuman right, Pat wrong. so, Pat, what's on TV tonite?

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:32:36 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Law and Order: An evil twin kills her good twin
Message:
Or did she? I have to record it as I am at work. Hope your cold's better.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:12:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hopefully, he was watching his favorite show
Message:
u know kerouac died a lonely man in front of the tv with a sixpack by his side

Better that, Hanufuckingidiot, than in a darshan line.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:34:29 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And hanuman died a lonely monkey
Message:
starving to death with his hand in a jar.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:49:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Why isn't hanuman in Amarscroo
Message:
My condolences. I agree with Katie. Post the trash. And Dorje Purba is Tibetan (transliterated of course) for Vajrakilaya (Sanskrit I believe). A wrathful deity, a protector. I got that empowerment three times, but never got deep enough into Tibetan Buddhism to actually do that practice.

He's into some strange shit. Maybe he's bugging you because he didn't go to the outback and he's feeling guilty.

Of course, if posting his trash doesn't end up deterring him, use your filters. That's what decent e-mail programs are for. Love 'em.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 05:25:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I feel sorry for him. I think he's lonesome
Message:
I also wondered why he was not at Amascrew. A looser maybe with no money and reading all this but not able to post. It must be sad. Maybe I'll email him and see if he is not too sick.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:11:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: all
Subject: PS: You Know Who reveals You Know What
Message:
My pal Andy (also an ex) won't post here because he's too busy with his fucking orchid forum. Today he gave me his two nicknames for Rev Moon Beam Rawat which I thought were funny enough to share with you.

Pimple Warat

(Pimple because he always has zits and Warat - pronounced Wahrot. Andy learned that in the navy where Wah means BS.)

Balyoguesswhat

Needs no explanation.

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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 21:36:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Some info on Elan Vital
Message:
Take some of this with a grain of salt (especially when marked by ???). This is info supplied by Elan Vital to an information company.

Elan Vital Inc (International Learning Center)
5321 Derry Ave, Ste. G
Agoura Hills, CA 91301-3394

Mailing address:
P O Box 6130
Malibu CA 90264-6130

818-889-1193

Ms Linda S Gross, President
Ms Cathie Thomas, Secretary

Sales volume: 49,000 (???)
Number of employees: 2 (???)
Start year: 1985 (???)

Industries:
Schools, educational Services NEC, non-degree
Recorded, pre-recorded tape str, video tapes pre-recorded, audio tapes pre-recorded

Elan Vital Inc (Visions International)
755 Lakefield Rd, Ste. J
Westlake Village, CA 91361-2639
805-496-4777

Mr Thomas Hagan, Manager

Industries:
Recorded, pre-recorded tape str, video tapes pre-recorded, audio tapes pre-recorded

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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 21:45:17 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Tom Hagan?
Message:
G,

Sorry to question this, but Tom Hagan? You mean from The Godfather?

John.

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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 23:43:51 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: No, nice Tom ji premie foot-soldier from Visions
Message:
See, Not the Americano consigliare character -- but Tom of Visions, with a pretty wife in television industry, in LA, Calif. but formerly from up in Northwest USA.

Visions Intl. is just guru propaganda -- and those who work there are simply his 'Canon fodder', after all.

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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 18:36:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: One terribly wrong thing m said yesterday
Message:
This is honestly my last post today. I've got to get a whole bunch of stuff done before we take off this weekend. But Maharaji said something terribly wrong yesterday -- duh! -- and I thought I'd comment.

Okay, he said a bunch of stupid things, as usual. Did you see that bullshit about how he frees, not trains, his little ponies:

'I don't know if you have seen a wild horse. A wild horse has a spirit about it. True, it's not ride-able, but it has a spirit about it. And it runs, but not for you, and it stops, but not for you. Its main flows in the wind, but not for you. Maybe nobody has come to that horse and told him, 'You are so pretty, you are so beautiful.' But it knows anyway. And it bucks and it kicks, and it's free. Then human beings come and they take that horse and the first thing they have to do is to break its spirit. And yes, he trots and he walks, and his main still flows in the wind, but his spirit is not there.

Every human being on the face of the earth is born free and runs free like that wild horse, and then everybody else and everything else tries to break that spirit. And, you know, the horse, won't let anybody ride him, no way. It bucks and kicks and bucks and kicks till its spirit is broken, and once the spirit is broken it has no problem. It stands there, somebody throws a saddle on its back, gets on top and the horse obeys the commands. Maybe one of the reasons a master is never understood properly by the world is because he takes this horse back to the wild and tries to mend the broken spirit, so that it will dance, it will walk, and it will run again, as this beautiful creature was meant to do.'

Can you imagine? For a few brief moments he makes his cult members think they're all wild, unbroken spirits? How profoundly, ironically stupid. How cruel.

But the thing that I wanted to mention was this:

'If you are not being judged by what you do, by what your profession is, or what your level of education is, but only how thirsty you are - is there any one thing in this world that does that? Nothing! Now this is how we are born. We were told we will need to know answers to questions. Nobody actually directly said this but it was understood. Yet, it is a self-defeating system. Because you cannot have answers to everything. It's not possible.
Every time a scientist discovers something new, another Pandora's box opens up. Every time they do some research they find out that what they knew is less. Their assumptions were actually wrong. So we in our lives are told, 'You must have answers.'

But we were never taught to say, 'I don't know'. There was never an option. In a multiple test, there isn't a choice that says 'I don't know the answer'. There is a book about how to take multiple tests. And it says, if you don't know the answer, pick one. Any one. Does anyone teach you to say 'I don't know.' The Master does. Because when you don't know, you can begin know about that one thing that you need to know about. How to love that which is eternal.'

(emphasis added).

That's an ignoramus' view of science. The notion that new discoveries scuttle the old, hence it's all back to square one all the time and we don't know anything in the end, never did, never will. Nothing could be further from the truth. Science invariably corrects and adjusts its understanding of the world but that's a process of refinement, building on what we've already got. Once in a rare, rare while some new discovery puts the lie to some previously accepted 'knowledge'. It happens, sure it happens. But it's the exception and far, far, far from the rule.

Thus it's so silly when people, like Sandy below, say that there's no point learning what others think because it's not original or something. Hell, either you want to know about the world around you or you don't. Originality's useful as hell in pushing the envelope, trying to go further, even challenging current theories, of course. But it's got to be informed orginality and that means educated in the current state of accumulated knowledge we share in 2001. This new age rejection of real learning is disturbing, it completely misses the point of science's real strength which is that its a process that allows knowledge to accumulate and build on itself.

Okay, gotta go.

Sandy, Maharaji, you guys should go back to school, take a few science courses. Learn something for a change.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 01:46:26 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Learning to Learn
Message:
Dear Jim,

One part of your post about learning - in all the work I do I feel like I have made a contribution if the people I work with have increased their abilities/capabilities to learn. So one of the ways I work with them is to become familiar with their preferred ways to learn and the learning blind spots this inevitably creates.

Increasing a person's ability to learn inevitably creates independence and perhaps collaborative interdependence.

Stifling a person's ability to learn (reflect, generalise, experiment etc) will conversely create dependence on particular sources of information/knowledge/data/stories/world views. Whether this is MJ, some other cult leader, a politician, the leading local demagogue.

I believe Sandy is learning, at his own pace, because there has been a demonstrative incongruence between his beliefs of the world (MJ etc) and the reality of the world (Dettmers et al). While lesser incongruences (or 'drips' as we are colloquily creating here) are enough for some, others needs larger drips, buckets or oceans.

Congratulations on your determination to persist with him - painfull as it often is.

Good luck with Sandy and others.

Peter Howie

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 14:08:35 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: One terribly wrong thing you said here
Message:
Thus it's so silly when people, like Sandy below, say that there's no point learning what others think because it's not original or something. -Jim

If this is how you listen and process information, it's a wonder you can drive and tune the radio at the same time. I never said any such thing about there being no point in learning. You are just springboarding from doing your rant on Maharaji to try to refute the fact that I stated, which is that you are predominantly a reader, not a doer or a writer. That truth must have hurt, because you are still kicking at it.
So kiss my.....ooops, I promised I'd try to stay away from that sort of expression....Have a good day.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 07:28:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Didn't Marorlyn have neurosurgery?
Message:
Perhaps she went to a faith healer. God, yeah, science is such a waste of time when it doesn't teach you to say 'I don't know', does it? But the Master tells you to say 'I don't know' so you can begin know about that one thing that you need to know about...blah, blah...bollocks

Notice the 'begin'? He's knocking science for apparently never getting anywhere. Meanwhile, when it comes to his flock he still pitches everything at this ludicrous introductory satsang level - same as he did all those years back.

Isn't it about time someone actually crossed the ocean by his love and light (jai dev)?

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 07:48:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Why does he blather and what is satsang
Message:
I know you don't go for meditation so let's just pretend for one minute and say that You Know Who is still just blissing out his gopis with You Know What. Then it really doesn't matter what he says. It's satsang voodoo and his presence is darshan juju.

PWKs will be wanting to talk about all that they understood at the feet of the Master in Amaroo for at least a month until the Miami May event happens. But they will have a hard time getting anyone except their closest friends to listen to their highly imaginative and subjective oohs and aahs. But it doesn't really matter anyway because every thoroughly modern PWK knows that the words are not important.

Even other PWKs will look at them askance because, of course, each of them understood something different - a personal message from him to them. Wow! Man, it's sooo neat. It is impossible to understand the Master - er, sorry, You Know Who - with THE MIND you have to feel You Know What with your heart deep within inside of you.

Poor PWKs: if they really believe in You Know What then they must know that You Know Who is the biggest obstacle in the way of them sharing their ''Knowledge'' in any trustworthy and respectable way.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 12:44:24 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: PatC
Subject: The real M / fake M experiment revisited
Message:
Hi Pat,

I don't know if you were around when I did this experiment on the forum - posted some transcripts either taken from M's own satsangs or pieces I had written myself in the style of M. A few premies attempted the challenge, but none came remotely close to identifying the words of their 'great teacher'. Which to me proves that either I - even when faking it - am also a great teacher, or M might just as well be faking it. As you rightly say, in a devotional personality cult the words are irrelevant.

Anyway, here is the original experiment:

>>>>

Brothers and sisters (or to put it another way, sisters and bros) in His Grace or otherwise.. please attend carefully.
The task:
(1) How many of the following seven passages are extracts from Maharaji's addresses?
(2) Of those which were given by M, how many are from the 1970's (before M 'evolved') and how many from the 1990's?
(Hint: none come from the 1980's)
To prevent it being too easy, I have tweaked the punctuation, capitalisations, spellings and paragraphing to make the passages appear similar throughout, and I have changed any references to 'Perfect Master' or 'Guru Maharaj Ji' to simply 'the Master'.
I think premies should have a go at this. It might help them sort out for themselves which inspirational materials are suitable for showing to new aspirants, or which are worth travelling a thousand miles to listen to..
(1)
It's just like this really: where are we and what are we doing? Man looks up and sees this Moon in the sky. This beautiful Moon, and he says: 'I wonder if I could go up and land on it.. See what it's like up there. So he builds this amazing rocket, gets the best engineers to design it, and the first one maybe goes into orbit round the Earth..
Then he builds a better rocket and goes into orbit round the Moon.. Slowly, slowly all these rockets are getting bigger. They get more powerful, and they design this landing module which can detach from the main spaceship and it's like 'Hey, Jiminy Cricket!' Man has landed on the Moon. And so there he is, up there on the Moon, and it's like 'Wow, that is really something - man is on the Moon.' But then what does he do? He's standing there on the Moon - one guy, maybe two guys in these breathing helmets - they look up in the sky and what do they see?
I'll tell you what they see: they see the Earth up there in the sky. And it's beautiful! And maybe at that moment they know, they realise something. They know the place they really want to be is there on the Earth. That's really how it is! Where we already are - that's where we most need to be..
>
(2)
Have you seen worms? Have you seen ants? I can understand what it means to be born as an ant or worm in your next birth. That's why it has been said: 'It is with great good fortune we secure this human body. It is rarely attained even by gods, as scriptures say. It is actually the means to practice Knowledge and the gateway to salvation...'
But you just tell me one thing. Do ants go to their jobs? No. Do they get stuck in traffic jams? No. Do they pay taxes? No. Do they need to vote? No. Do they face all these worldly problems? No. Do they get two square meals a day? Yes. Do they have a place to live? Yes., So you just tell me one thing: There are those people too who sleep on the pavements and pass their time in trouble and tribulations. Now whose situation is better? The situation of ants or the situation of those people on the pavements? You tell me, those poor people who have no place to live, no food to eat, how do they fare in this world? Have you ever seen ants begging alms? Oh, everything is provided to ants... Have you ever seen ants saying, 'Yes sir. Yes sir!' Have you seen ants doing flattery without purpose? Have you seen ants saying, 'Please forgive me, oh forgive me?' So, you just tell me, on one side there is this human being and on the other is that ant. And for ants there are no restrictions. They are going on without any restraint. Then whose lot is better?
>
(3)
And there's this question, this big mystery.. What is this life? - this precious life - what is it? Why do we have it? What do we do with it? I mean, we have these five senses and we have all these incredible things to experience. I mean, it's out there for us. So many things to get into, things we get lost in, and that's exactly what we do. Look at it like this: we have these eyes. We need these eyes to even see where we're going. But we also use them to see the beauty - just of the world.
Also these ears.. life is tricky without them. Life is a problem. Sure it is. We need hearing for understanding each other. But also we can use those ears to listen to music. Whatever kind you like... we know what we prefer. I won't talk about that! Or the smelling sense - it's like that joke: 'My dog has no nose' and the other guy says, 'How does he smell?' and it's like 'Really bad!' meaning the dog smells really.. Ok, it's funny! It's a joke..! Ok, but is it really a joke? I don't mean it's funny not to have these senses. No, not that. I mean it's really no joke the way we are so caught up in these senses.. just tasting, just experiencing it all. And it's amazing. But it's really no joke that we miss the important thing. The thing our senses have no knowledge about.. The thing they don't even know about. They are supposed to be senses but sometimes they can't even sense it!
>>
(4)
And we want things.. no doubt about it. We see something in a shop window, and that's what we want. A minute before we were happy.. just walking down the shopping mall or whatever. We're whistling and smiling, you know, kicking stones or something. Just feeling Ok, Not feeling great but Ok, Then we look in that shop window and we see something just so amazing it's like - 'Hey, I'm not happy any more - I want one of those..' No, it's worse than that, we say 'I need one of those..'
Whatever it is, a golf bag or a hi-fi, lots of things - it could be anything. Something not too valuable at all, something that isn't really necessary.. But suddenly we want it, and we're not happy until we get it. If we're just a kid we'll pester our moms until we get it.. Remember that? But that's how it is later on, too. We grow up, we want different things but we still have to have them. So one way or other we get them. But then what? Are we happy yet? You bet we're not!' Tell me, why is that? I can tell you that. I can explain that, and that's what the Master always comes to tell you, what he comes to explain. And he'll explain it again and again - it's like a full-time job. Believe me, it is a full time job, sometimes! But the beautiful thing is, all you have to do is listen. Simple as that. Just listen and understand something.
>
(5)
What is happiness? We know the word, what it means and sometimes we'll tell each other 'Yes, I'm really happy today'. And we mean it! But is it possible we don't even know what that word 'happy' really means? Perhaps we never even knew it, never really felt it inside. So we look for it outside. Of course we do. If we've never had something - I mean, maybe we've had it but now we've lost it, we look outside ourselves for it..
It's like my father, Shri Hans, used to say when someone in the residence lost something. They'd always start looking someplace furthest away - out in the garden and the flowerbeds or somewhere.. I mean it could be just they felt dumb for losing whatever it was and didn't want anyone to see them looking for it..! But Hans Ji always said 'Never look outside for what you lost indoors..' and that is so true. He wasn't talking about losing things, really losing things. He meant something else. That thing we really want, that thing we lost somewhere along the line.. and it's just like we know it's there somewhere. It's like an instinct, like a memory from way back…
That happiness, and we go 'damn it! I just know it's gotta be here somewhere.' But isn't that really what it's like? Except if we don't know where we were when we lost our keys, and 'keys' is good, 'keys' is exactly right! - if we don't know where we were when it happened.. Ok, we kind of suspect they're in the house, inside us somewhere, but unless someone can show us where, then what chance do we have… Is there any chance of finding those keys?
>
(6)
Some of you accept this Knowledge then go off and do your own thing. You say 'Thanks a lot [....], I have what I have now. I'll just go and practice it. Do it my way.' And the Master says 'Hang on a minute, are you going to be Ok?' And you say 'Sure. I know what to do. I understand it, I understand everything..'
And in a way, that's all right. That's fine. Knowledge is free - no strings attached! If you want to do it like that, then that's what you can do, and the Master just says 'See you later, then..' And, believe me, the Master usually will see them later. Why? Because it's like this.. You're teaching this kid to read, and you give him the alphabet. So does the child know how to read? Has he learned to use the language? No - of course he hasn't - but that's what it's like. Exactly what it's like. This Knowledge is like a language. You get the techniques and it's like having your alphabet, but you don't even know what language you're learning. Because Knowledge isn't that kind of language. You won't find a vocabulary, won't find a dictionary anywhere. This isn't French or Chinese. This is the Master's own language - the language of all the great Masters. It is a language of love.. the language of happiness. In fact it isn't even 'about' anything like those other languages. In a way it's not only a language of love but a language about love, and it is the supreme language.
So if you think you know what that means then, 'Ok, that's fine - off you go'. But just remember where you got the alphabet because that's where you'll find the vocabulary and all the rest of it.
>
(7)
And here we all are again. And why? For that one reason, that one simple reason - to grasp that opportunity while we have it.. That continuity. That rare and precious thing, Just to be alive and in the company of our Master. Do we have any idea? Do we really have any idea how fortunate we are? What that means? Can we guess how many lifetimes it took? 'Lifetimes spent in ignorance, wasted years in searching…' All that time waiting for the one thing we most wanted? That thirst of which Kabir and Tulsidas spoke? I'll tell you this right now: that thirst itself is precious, for 'without the thirst there cannot be the joy of drinking at that well'. .
I mean, do monkeys know that longing? No! Nor do they know the joy of fulfilment or recognition when they meet that living Master? No! To behold that Master and recognise the source of the fulfilment. To know the fulfilment and be merged with that Master? Because - it's crazy - that is it! That is all! That much is everything.
What more is there? Yet we blow it! We blow it again and again. It isn't easy! Ok, it looks easy. When we hear the Master speak it sounds easy. Very easy. Knowledge is simple, right? Well, yes it is, but it is also the hardest thing, a dangerous thing. This is really is a treacherous path and it is easy to slip over the edge. And that is the reason we pray - pray constantly - to our Master to help us. To hold onto us - it's like he ties his rope around our middles, so we don't just go 'Hey, I wonder what will happen if I untie this knot!'
Because that is what we do. Or we say 'I don't think this knot looks right. I'll untie it and see if I can tie a better one. It's like we always imagine we can see a better way of doing things - a better way of realising this Knowledge. So we untie the knot and, next thing, there we are at the foot of the mountain! If we're lucky we'll just have a sore head and we just have to go back and start climbing again. If we're not so lucky we'll have fallen too far - just blown it completely. Like the cat's nine lives - 'Uh-ho, there goes number nine! Help me, Lord! Can you get me out of this?' And it's not funny any more.. Seriously, it isn't. Because sometimes the Master can't get you out of it.'

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 12:04:43 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The real M / fake M experiment revisited
Message:
this is real food for thought. they all sound like him, but if you say you made up some of them, you really have his style down. only the story about shri hans and the lost keys didnt quite hit my ear right. it didnt have that babytalk lullabye quality he uses.

how did you ever capture his style so accurately?
there was a time when i knew every word he had ever said at a program or in print, and i dont recognize any of these. but i also lost touch in the 80;s, so these could be from then on. you said no 80's, so i'd have to believe 90's.

email me the answers so i dont spoil it for others.
Jai_Choix@webtv.net

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 15:28:11 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: janet
Subject: How did I do it? - surprisingly easy...
Message:
Thanks janet, but seriously it wasn't that difficult. Mostly imagining myself at an event or watching a video and remembering those fractured cadences, non-sequential thought-bubbles and idiotic analogies - also making sure 'M' costantly interrupts himself and allows no train of thought to actually go anywhere. No long grammatical sentences and loads of BIG rhetorical questions ('But what is this life?') which the rest of the satsang conspicuously fails to address.

I'll email you the correct solutions - and anyone else who asks. (Including premies, provided they at least attempt the experiment first.)

Interesting point about the lost keys...

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:28:14 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: This's the third time I've tried to read your post
Message:
and I can't get further than number two. Then my mind goes numb and....I think I need a few more years out of the cult before I can stomach that claptrap without feeling funny all over.

I'll keep it and do your test a few years from now.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 18:24:51 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: loafji@yahoo.com
To: Nigel
Subject: The real M / fake M experiment revisited
Message:
1 = 70s
2 = 90s
3 = 70s
4 = 70s
5 = 90s
6 = 70s
7 = 90s

How did I do ?

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:12:20 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The real M / fake M experiment revisited
Message:
Hi Nigel

here are my wrong answers -:)

1. you
2. you
3. him-70's
4. him-70's
5. you
6. him-90's
7. him-70's

how many right/wrong ?

Cheers

Dermot

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 17:49:31 (GMT)
From: Dermot
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 2 0r 3 right then...hmm quite good ;)) (nt)
Message:
zz
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 16:31:51 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Dermot
Subject: Over half of them wrong....;) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 22:23:48 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Not entirely wrong, but...
Message:
..are you saying they are ALL Maharaji?

Interesting... Please confirm.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 05:24:33 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: no.. YOU said they were extracts from m's...
Message:
... why should i possibly doubt you ? I trust you implicitly.

Humbly

Oaf

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:07:36 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: I said no such thing. Please re-read agya (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 08:51:48 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I got too blissed out to read the small print
Message:
i reckon they is all fake
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 10:10:44 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Not entirely wrong, but...
Message:
..not entirely right.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 03:31:01 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wrong, irritating, and the same old, same old
Message:
Maharaji has been saying that about science for 30 years now - not only is it just plain wrong, but it's annoying that he hasn't gotten the slightest clue by now that he is wrong. He still hasn't learned enough to know how little he (and all of us) really know - and he doesn't care enough to learn it either.

I think Maharaji is the one who needs to say 'I don't know'. How often does HE say this? Virtually never - at least in public.

Oh yeah, and the 'wild horses' analogy is like a shampoo commercial, as Helen said. Pretty and probably appealing to some people, but empty and meaningless.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 02:37:52 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wild horses couldn't drag me to Amaroo
Message:
As usual he mixes his metaphors or fails to see where his anlogies will lead. You can't make wild horses FREE. They already are.

He's the Horse Whisperer murmuring sweet nothings into his devotees ears: ''I'm You Know Who and I reveal You Know What.''

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 02:35:39 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It makes perfect sense to me
Message:
I'd hardly call premies 'wild horses' or free. One thing Maha has a penchant for is saying the exact opposite to what is actually true.

So take all his ridiculous sayings and turn them round 180 degrees so that they mean the opposite and then they make sense.

A wild horse comes to the master and he breaks their spirit and captures them. Forget the master when you die, he's certainly not going to help you then. Don't listen to the master but rely on your own judgement, you know yourself better than he ever could.

If you go to a Maha program, don't listen to anything he says but check out old friends there instead. Give your attention and love to your lover, friends and family and don't even think about Maha. Concentrate on furthering yourself in this world and it will hold you in good stead and give you and those closest to you some security. Don't consider the master's needs and don't feel any gratitude towards him.

Give me your love and I will give you angst. Surrender the reigns of your life to me and I will give you such a Hell as will never die. I am the sourse of anxiety in this world. Be shy, don't tell anyone about me.

I have come so weak, I have come for myself. Nobody should hear that the saviour of Mankind hasn't come...

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 03:06:34 (GMT)
From: Roy Rogers
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Give me the reigns of your life and I will....
Message:
make you a wild horse again...

Perfect sense from the perfect (you know who) master...

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 15:36:05 (GMT)
From: Trigger
Email: None
To: Roy Rogers
Subject: reins, reins - REINS!!! Geddit right goddamit.(nt)
Message:
shheeeeeeessh
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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 18:52:25 (GMT)
From: Roy and Dale Evans
Email: None
To: Trigger
Subject: We know a little girl named Cynthia....
Message:
who at age 4 with her active imagination, convinced all the neighborhood kids that she had Trigger in her cellar. The kids all believed her and wanted to see him.

Little Cynthia adored our show and sang the Happy Trails song every day but when she got caught in this lie did not know what to do.

She consulted her mother and was told that lying is wrong and Little Cynthia had to go back to all her friends and tell them that Trigger was not in her cellar. She was very ashramed (oops! meant to spell ashamed) but it was her first lesson in the value of morals and not lying.

True story.
Roy and Dale, Out on the Trail, In the Happy Hunting Grounds in the Where ever....

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 23:51:07 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Trigger
Subject: No it's not
Message:
It's 'rains' acrually.

Sheesh, double sheesh.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 12:12:51 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: rains:wet. reins:horse. reigns:king got it?
Message:
do we have to review them all?
there, their, they're?
wheel, we'll, weal?

'the reigns of Kings, despite tugging the reins of their horses, can do nothing about the rains from the skies.'

doesnt that settle it?

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 14:27:24 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave (Head Librarian)
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: No - since when were you a horse, Janet?
Message:
The fact is, they all fit. And you thought the Maharaja was only talking about horses. Since when were you a horse, me dear?

But in every life a little rain must fall. Yes?

Or, that which you have domain over in your life is what you reign over.

Give all your rains/reins/reigns to Maharaji and he'll give you such an anxiety as will never die.

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Date: Sun, Apr 29, 2001 at 14:32:01 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave (Head Librarian)
Subject: nay, he can have all my rains, unto drowning.
Message:
whixh is what he would get if he got all my drips and everyone else's back, all at once.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:34:42 (GMT)
From: Guru Mariachi
Email: None
To: Roy Rogers
Subject: Give me the reigns of your life and I will....
Message:
say Giddy-up!
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:39:56 (GMT)
From: Tumblin' Tumbleweed
Email: None
To: Guru Mariachi
Subject: Give me the reigns of your life and I will....
Message:
Yippie yi o!!

get along little doggies!
Is that Father Mickey?
It's me, Helen

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:41:14 (GMT)
From: Guru Mariachi
Email: None
To: Tumblin' Tumbleweed
Subject: Give me the reigns of your life and I will....
Message:
Dang! you got me, gal!

Reverendo Miquel

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:45:26 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Guru Mariachi
Subject: Om Om on the Range....
Message:
Watch out where the huskies go,
And don't you eat that yellow snow!

I think it's time for me to go to bed!

I've been watching All in the Family and The Jeffersons reruns. Definitely a sign of insanity

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:47:59 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Om Om on the Range....
Message:
Well, we are so desperate here that we will watch anything in English, even Hunter re-runs!

Buenas noches

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:59:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: true confessions
Message:
I have an engineer friend who has to go to Siberia alot for his work. They have many old yucky reruns there too, and lousy videos! Oh, but if he is lucky, he can have a massage from Ingrid the zaftig masseuse! Seriously! She will crack him good!

Seriously, I love watching these old comedies on Nick at Night, like Golden Girls, I love Lucy, Designing Women and the like. I'm just an NPR gal in an MTV world! This will be our little secret, along with my cult history. HA HA!

Buenos stardust back at ya

Helen

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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 22:10:33 (GMT)
From: bill--that bastard, HE is
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: the one that breaks your spirit.........nt
Message:
sdfhj
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 01:57:07 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bill--that bastard, HE is
Subject: Agreed, Bill
Message:
Yeah, Bill, Maharaji puts you through the ringer just to receive Knowledge. Look at the aspirant program. People hear about Knowledge and get real excited at the prospects. 'Give it to me, give it to me!' They're like wild broncos, filled with spirit. But what do they get? They get Mahararji riding their backs, telling them 'slow down', 'easy boy', just the way cowboys talk to horses they're about to break. Before Maharaji reveals Knowledge, he first breaks you into what he wants you to be. Why? So he can ride you, of course. So he can control you.
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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 03:32:19 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: excellent point....nt
Message:
dfsdh
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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 22:59:19 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: bill--that bastard, HE is
Subject: The Breaking of the Spirit
Message:
Guru Maharaj Ji:

'Every human being on the face of the earth is born free and runs free
like that wild horse, and then everybody else and everything else tries
to break that spirit. And, you know, the horse, won't let anybody ride
him, no way. It bucks and kicks and bucks and kicks till its spirit is
broken, and once the spirit is broken it has no problem. It stands there,
somebody throws a saddle on its back, gets on top and the horse
obeys the commands. Maybe one of the reasons a master is never
understood properly by the world is because he takes this horse back
to the wild and tries to mend the broken spirit, so that it will dance, it
will walk, and it will run again, as this beautiful creature was meant to
do.'

As some of you have mentioned, yes, Maharaji's wild horse metaphor is cruelly ironic.

Of course, he is correct in asserting that society crimps one's freedom and subverts one's best tendencies in order to advance larger and sometimes nastier goals than would seem necessary for survival. Why? That's the subject of much speculation and millions of books.

But to assert that adherence to Maharajism - or any other way too simplified view of the universe - returns one to one's primordial nature is dangerously wrong. Dangerous in that one's natural desire to grow is permanently arrested in infantile adoration of The Guru.

Some teachers might encourage wild original buddha nature to flourish, in a life of compassion and responsibility and love and awareness, but Guru Maharaji is not one of them. I've been there; I'm familiar with the feelings he encourages in his satsangs, the feelings thus encouraged in DLM/EV dogma.

Trust me, if you wanna be a wild horse, don't submit to the Spurs and Whips of the Satguru.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:56:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Good one Greg -- right problem, wrong solution
Message:
He definitely seems to be able to articulate the problem sometimes. Then I was stupid enough to take his solution.
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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 19:56:13 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: One terribly wrong thing m said yesterday
Message:
Hi Jim

I agree with you that the bit about science is uneducated crap I was more shocked to hear m still spouting this crap about the philosophy of its good to say 'I don't know'.

Let just look at how this translates shall we. Lets take the following quote 'Does anyone teach you to say 'I don't know.' The Master does. Because when you don't know, you can begin know about that one thing that you need to know about. How to love that which is eternal.' What he is really saying here is; you know nothing you are stupid and I know everything and only through me can true enlightenment be found. Sound familiar?

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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 19:53:58 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Actually, Jim,
Message:
Jim,

I wasn't so shocked by the science references he made as by the comparison of a wild horse to human beings being ''broken.'' He is describing the process of cult indoctrination:

I don't know if you have seen a wild horse. A wild horse has a spirit about it. True, it's not ride-able, but it has a spirit about it. And it runs, but not for you, and it stops, but not for you. Its main flows in the wind, but not for you. Maybe nobody has come to that horse and told him, 'You are so pretty, you are so beautiful.' But it knows anyway. And it bucks and it kicks, and it's free. Then human beings come and they take that horse and the first thing they have to do is to break its spirit. And yes, he trots and he walks, and his mane still flows in the wind, but his spirit is not there. My emphasis in bold.

Substitute the bold sentence with mine: Then the cult leader (Master) comes and takes that person and the first thing he has to do is break their spirit. And yes, he listens to the master and obeys the cult leader. He still is a beautiful human but his spirit is not there, the spirit has been broken.

Every human being on the face of the earth is born free and runs free like that wild horse, and then everybody else and everything else tries to break that spirit. And, you know, the horse, won't let anybody ride him, no way. It bucks and kicks and bucks and kicks till its spirit is broken, and once the spirit is broken it has no problem. It stands there, somebody throws a saddle on its back, gets on top and the horse obeys the commands. Maybe one of the reasons a master is never understood properly by the world is because he takes this horse back to the wild and tries to mend the broken spirit, so that it will dance, it will walk, and it will run again, as this beautiful creature was meant to do.'

Substitute the bold sentence with mine: A person resists and denies, resists and denies till it's spirit is broken, and once the spirit is broken it has no problem because it's now fully programmed and the cult leader in now in the saddle. He stands there while the cult leader gives agya to do satsang, service, and mediation, and the person obeys the Master's, the cult leader's commands.

The last sentence baffles me. It doesn't make sense in his analogy, which is also entirely weird. It's almost as if he realized he was talking about a cult and covered it up by talking about the ''Master'' fixing everything???

Hey Jim: Have a great vacation and LEAVE YOUR LAPTOP HOME!!!!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 20:55:05 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I caught that too
Message:
I was shocked by him saying the exact opposite of what the cult does. This is the man who said, 'give me the reins of your life, and I will give you peace.'

Now he says, 'reins, what reins?' I found it pretty chilling. To sell someone into some strange sort of emotional slavery by promising the keys to freedom is a sick, sick, thing.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 02:38:09 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Francesca/all
Subject: wild horses, we'll ride them some day
Message:
That is really ironic that he thinks that freedom of the spirit comes from a master. But this is the junk he's been spouting all along. It used to be swans, remember? Swans all pure, floating above the mud and muck of this world. Now it's the image of the wild horse, running free and unfettered. It's like a L'oreal Commercial.

I can just see it now: some old burned out premie sitting there, probably wondering 'hmmm, maybe I will quit this crazy trip,' and then M gives this little speech and the old premie starts fantasizing about how special he is, so full of fire and beauty like Black Beauty, who noone can tame. Here he was, feeling so bummed out, and like such a loser one minute (as we all feel from time to time), but when his 'Master' tells him he's a wild horse he feels all good about knowledge again. 'Oh wow, that's so beautiful.' SO he goes to the Elan Vital chotchke table and buys a T-shirt with an air brushed painting of wild horses running with their manes feathering out behind them,with a quote from this event on the back. And he feels all recharged to fork over some more time, energy and moola to the big hamster.

I think M just puts whatever spin he can at any given time. He doesn't worry about his speeches being consistent as in 'give me the reins of your life' and 'surrender' (circa 1980) and 'let your spirit be free, like a bucking bronco' (2001). He's just like a politician trying to get a buck any way he can.

I can't even take the guy seriously anymore. He is so full of it.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 12:29:32 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Giddy up! Yee-ha!
Message:
Gee, do you think he carries a little notebook around with him so he can write down his new LITTLE seeds of wisdom so he has a new spin to present once in awhile?

Where does he come up with this dribble?

I found your post quite entertaining. Particularily, 'let your spirit be free, like a bucking broncho.' I'm still laughing.

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 16:08:50 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Giddy up! Yee-ha!
Message:
Honestly, I don't know where he comes up with this stuff. But since we know that these festivals are staged and that M's behavior 'off-stage' is totally different from his on-stage personae, then these things are scripted carefully, I am sure. Scripted to juice up the premies a bit and keep them on the hook.

I'll tell you what, my spirit was that of an old grey mare put out to pasture at the glue factory when I was into Maharaji, so I like Sir Dave's idea that Maharaji is really Mr. Opposite. Just say everything he says backwards and then you'll have the truth!

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:10:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: You go, girl. Right on, as always
Message:
Helen:

I appreciate your posts. I never fail to find your point of view refreshing!

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Date: Sat, Apr 28, 2001 at 04:42:17 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: You go, girl. Right on, as always
Message:
Well, golly, girl, thanks!

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Date: Fri, Apr 27, 2001 at 19:22:04 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: One terribly wrong thing m said yesterday
Message:
Jim, why are you continually obsessed with m? I'm glad you're taking a vacation - you'll probably camp out next to the nicest internet cafe in Cost Rica, won't you. Can you really stay away from the wonderous world of elk droppings for two weeks?

Give Laurie a kiss for me.

Steve

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