Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 19:40:58 (GMT)
From: Apr 27, 2001 To: May 10, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


F arti -:- How is lotus feet kissing rationalised? -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 10:31:13 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Premies don't rationlize, they crave.... -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 15:09:28 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Premies don't rationlize, they crave.... -:- Mon, May 07, 2001 at 03:18:06 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- How is lotus feet kissing rationalised? -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 08:42:07 (GMT)
__ __ F arti -:- So his toilet must be getting a human body -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 11:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- A provocative thought -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 07:45:38 (GMT)
__ such -:- Foot Fetish cult. Toe jam football... (nt -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:59:40 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- + in India,musicians pranam to their music guru(nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 16:43:59 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- How is lotus feet kissing rationalised? -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:20:46 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Or singing Arti to'Superior Power in Person..'(nt) -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 12:55:09 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Knowledge is carefully packaged -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:38:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- yes, the fluctuations of org political correctness -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:20:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- You did it again, such, yer suchabanana -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:12:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- gErRy.Funny you should mention.On Human Respect... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 07:59:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- HEAR! HERE! - yet another *BEST OF FORUM* (nt) -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 05:24:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- pedantic and condescending -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:09:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- gErRy, fine, now take a piss somewhere else. LOL -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:49:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- That's a rather vulgar characterization, swamiji -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 01:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- vulgar? You referred to my female friend as a c--t -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:22:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Sorry I'm not as en -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 16:14:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- gerry, let's get some things straight here -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 20:31:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- whaaat? -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 20:57:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- ok, now. (ot -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 22:11:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- ok, now. (ot -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 22:15:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- No way -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 05:31:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- On Human Respect...very well put, Such -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:57:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ F arti -:- They are not going to mention arti and darshan -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 11:12:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- You did it again, Way! Beautifully said. -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 02:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roy -:- Great world marketing synopsis! Gary / Way nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 01:06:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Knowledge is carefully packaged -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:48:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- m. is Costco Guru, Inc. (nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:30:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- LOL - great post, Gary -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:49:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- carefully packaged -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 17:49:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Hey, Mel -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:44:26 (GMT)

Jethro -:- Hear this from a Reiki master -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 07:12:45 (GMT)
__ Bob -:- falling through the cracks -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 08:17:45 (GMT)

Moldy Warp -:- God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:19:49 (GMT)
__ Bryn -:- God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 11:20:33 (GMT)
__ Ulf -:- God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 09:44:27 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 09:18:38 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Hey Oafie - it makes me sad too -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 11:53:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- i think is different for everyone... -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 13:33:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ mOLDY wARP -:- Loaf - rat-arsed - the 3 of us -you're on xx nt -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 21:07:03 (GMT)
__ janet -:- God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will--wow. yeaah -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 08:57:37 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- surrendering the reins of your life -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 07:12:52 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- So True, DPGAJ -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:21:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Another tit -- owning my own sh*t -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 17:14:41 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- This part shook something loose in me -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 03:39:23 (GMT)
__ __ Katie H -:- This part shook something loose in me -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 13:18:48 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Fake God-in-a-frock can fuck off -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:21:41 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Fake God-in-a-frock can fuck off -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:30:28 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 00:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Tell me about it Selene -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:02:29 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- 'Mouldy maybe and warped for sure' (Sandy, 2001) -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:37:30 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- 'Mouldy maybe and warped for sure' (Sandy, 2001) -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Sir Dave said: ''It's all 180 degrees wrong. '' -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:43:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- First we have to get our horse tied up and not let -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:38:36 (GMT)
__ __ Joy -:- Erosion of Self-Esteem and Will -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:53:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Joy/Moldy/Selene -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 03:02:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- it's on me -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 03:26:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- it's on me -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 20:57:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Helen , you can never say 'fuck' too much nt -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:53:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Erosion of Self-Esteem and Will -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 00:43:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- The big hole, gaping void... -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 00:55:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ donner -:- The big hole, gaping void... -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- The hole where brains used to be!. -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 03:12:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- The hole where brains used to be!. -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:50:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H. -:- And wanting to feel like a 'good' person -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 13:28:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- sneaking some 'Mind' on the side -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 21:11:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- sneaking some 'Mind' on the side -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 21:59:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- sneaking some 'Mind' on the side -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:42:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You and me both -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:20:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- You and me both -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:07:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Oh, there's a lot of good, I agree -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:30:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- squinting vs. trying to change -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:06:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Being able to speak your mind ... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 04:15:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Being able to speak your mind ... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:50:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- What a waste! -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 14:40:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy warp -:- What a waste! -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:11:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- You rock Baby! nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- On owning our part in the situation -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:50:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- On owning our part in the situation -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:15:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Moldy warp -:- On owning our part in the situation -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:17:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- On owning our part in the situation -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:13:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Thanks... -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:38:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I'm not sure 'they' knew/know either -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:37:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Moldy, you are funny, hic, nt -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:31:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- The big hole, gaping void... -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:05:09 (GMT)

Brian -:- Woman seeking premie father -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:04:50 (GMT)

Lesley -:- To Michael Donner, q re devoteeship -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 20:50:36 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Sado/Masochism -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 00:28:18 (GMT)
__ __ Lesley -:- Thanks, Peter -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 05:59:07 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- Sado/Masochism -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:09:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Wildflower -:- Sado/Masochism -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 01:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Reading and processing on this forum -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:45:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Wildflower, you wise grasshopper -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 16:23:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Wildflower, welcome to the world of -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 04:45:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- Thanks, Donner -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Sado/Masochism -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 03:54:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Sado/Masochism - Bondage and Discipline -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:47:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Pat C,I know what you mean about holding back.... -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 04:27:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- In Moldy's thread above, Francesca said -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:12:42 (GMT)
__ donner -:- To Michael Donner, q re devoteeship -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:58:20 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- To: donner....Wonderful post... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:17:26 (GMT)
__ __ Lesley -:- The crux, to me -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 05:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- PS -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- PS -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:27:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Yes - looking at who we were -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 21:21:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Sabotage of the great impulse -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:40:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Great stuff, donner, Lesley all!======n/t -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Thanks Donner....nt -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:37:18 (GMT)

la-ex -:- JM, a few questions about the magazine article... -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 15:00:03 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Some answers -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 08:00:32 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Translation update -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 10:04:06 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Mind -:- The value of India to Rawat -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 09:25:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- Mob? -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 17:59:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mr. Mind -:- Mob? -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:39:50 (GMT)

Brian -:- Site mail: Guilt, Gratitude and Gurus -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 13:01:11 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Hate to think that these are -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 18:37:30 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Little guilt shrine -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 18:31:47 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Guilt, Gratitude and Gurus -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 17:18:32 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- Sheesh, the second one could have been -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 17:13:16 (GMT)

Roger eDrek -:- The mystery is solved - I am at peace -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 02:56:27 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Roger - great post -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 13:22:35 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Excellent! -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:53:24 (GMT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- focusing on different parts of the brain? -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 05:49:18 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Great post -- I'm still reading -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 16:10:12 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Terrific post - the money was for 5th tech -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 03:11:42 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Atta boy, Rog, I'm prouda ya(nt) -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:02:37 (GMT)

Cynthia -:- I found some interesting info on Michael Bolton... -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 20:40:22 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I found some interesting info on Michael Bolton... -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 03:15:34 (GMT)
__ curious -:- Michael Bolton the singer?. NT -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 22:03:23 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Did he have his mullet when he was a premie (nt)? -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 02:43:18 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- yes he did... -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 10:29:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ puzzleman -:- yes he did... -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 20:54:52 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Michael Bolotin...(origional name) -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Cool Bill, Thanks I do it! (nt) -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 19:30:20 (GMT)

cq -:- identifying with the 'master'/'teacher'/'guru' -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 19:48:04 (GMT)

Bob (Reposted by FA) -:- Inspiring Story -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:26:48 (GMT)
__ cq -:- you mean *this* John Dobson? -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 19:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- I dont believe his thinking would survive forum -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 22:54:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- You had me seriously worried there, Bill -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:55:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- ... but I'm sure his 'Dobsonian mount' is the biz -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:44:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- wow, thanks cq, this is great stuff....nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 01:16:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ ULf -:- please translate into danish n.t. -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 11:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Hi Ulf, how are you, email me sometime:))) n/t -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 18:20:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- please translate -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 12:02:17 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- YEAH, this John Dobson -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:04:58 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Great site cq , Bob . I 'm a sucker for stuff... -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:01:44 (GMT)

Susan -:- a post from me -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 15:31:24 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- A post from me too! -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 06:25:58 (GMT)
__ Tony -:- a post from me -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:24:37 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- a post from me -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:11:50 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- a post from me -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 15:54:29 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- a post from me -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:09:03 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- Amaroo 2005? I don't think so. -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:30:06 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- a post from me -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:14:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- a post from me -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 03:56:21 (GMT)

jaan -:- class action law suit -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 14:52:39 (GMT)
__ Mark appleman -:- class action law suit -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:49:45 (GMT)
__ __ Jaan -:- all threads lead to the same place... freedom -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 06:49:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mark -:- Great Post. Sorry don't know those folks (no text) -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 16:06:20 (GMT)
__ __ Mark -:- To Infinity and Beyond - to Love -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 04:28:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- Great posts -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 19:43:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Great posts..nt -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:49:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Yours is a lovely essay in 2 parts Mark -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 18:59:22 (GMT)
__ salam -:- pigs will fly before you can do that -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 15:59:30 (GMT)

Tony -:- Maharaji,protect me from your followers. -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 10:07:37 (GMT)
__ Sivan -:- Maharaji,protect me from your followers. -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 10:57:13 (GMT)
__ TD -:- This doesn't give me hope for old premies... -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 02:57:17 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- why some of those from 70s and 80s have it BAD -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:02:08 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- good insights and self awareness/truth nt -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:15:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- ditto (nt -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 16:34:49 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Maharaji loves us - yes and so does Bush. -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 17:12:05 (GMT)
__ __ Tony -:- Yeah,spot on Patsy,Can I call you that?nt -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:11:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- You can call me anything as long as you -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:34:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tony -:- Yep,That joke works in oz Pat. nt -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 09:22:48 (GMT)
__ salam -:- But Tony, this is your second chance -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:06:44 (GMT)
__ __ Tony -:- Sorry mate the mole is dead,or is he? -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:09:03 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- What it's all about -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 10:43:47 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- What it's all about -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:18:41 (GMT)
__ __ Tony -:- One thing I failed to mention -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:20:02 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Give me Cliff Richard any day -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:04:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Still movin' and a groovin' -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 00:44:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- trapped eternally as a 1958 teenage ducktail. -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 08:50:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- trapped eternally as a 1958 teenage ducktail. -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 14:45:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Now... if he had gone to Vegas -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 17:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hey I had a blue rinse today... -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:38:31 (GMT)
__ __ toby -:- What it's all about -:- Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 11:10:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mercedes -:- I hear what your are saying... -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 04:22:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tony -:- Thanks Merc nt. -:- Tues, May 01, 2001 at 09:26:16 (GMT)


Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 10:31:13 (GMT)
From: F arti
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How is lotus feet kissing rationalised?
Message:
I would like to know how western premies rationalise the kissing of his feet.What does this mean?It is not like premies go and bow down to their bosses and spouses and kiss theur feet.What is the message being given here.I just do not get it.Is it out of respect or is to be submissive to the lord?What does m think about it all.He probably enjoys having people (upwards of 4,000) kiss his feet.He is probably like a rockstar on stage being empowered by his fans.
It is all a bit weird when you actually look at it objectively.Obviously it is kept secret from outsiders as well.Could you imagine a premie turning up for work after being to Amaroo and telling their workmates that they had just had a wonderful experience.'oh what did you do?'I went and kissed my gurus' feet.I think they would be phoning the funny farm to come and take them away.
Are there any premies that would like to comment on this?Please don't tell us how beautiful it was.We already know you would say that.
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 15:09:28 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: F arti
Subject: Premies don't rationlize, they crave....
Message:
I don't know about the new PWKs, but the old timers never had to rationalize darshan or arti. I never did. Kissing his feet was always the ultimate ''gift.'' The greatest excitement prior to a program in the 70s was toe kissing. I remember the rumors that when he gave darshan he actually grew in physical size from all the ''love'' he got in the darshan line. So many myths and lies.

By the time I was totally programmed, which didn't take long for me, I was ready and eager to kiss his feet. It was all explained in the aspirant program at the time (1975). At the 1975 Hans Jayanti, Crapper Rawat still allowed aspirants to toe kiss and I actually had a very powerful experience prior to getting k. I never thought it through because I had already been programmed not to doubt or question. I was so hooked on m, that my practice as an aspirant was to sit for an hour each morning and night and listen to his tapes or read his satsang in prepping for the k.

Obviously, the Royal Shithead does it for the money. Maybe for the adoration, too, who knows what goes through his pickled, screwed up mind? But for premies, Big D-Darshan, or toe kissing has always been considered the ultimate. Singing Arti directly to him was a mindless expression of all the love I felt for him, which I now know was the icing on the proverbial cake of programming. Both darshan and arti reinforced in me that I could never leave him for fear of leaving the living lord. I was trapped by him and didn't know it.

I felt the same darshan cravings after being away from him for 16 years. Yet when I returned in 1997 the props had completely changed and the duct tape was securely on the mouths of premies, who were no longer called premies but PWKs.

I had been around earlier in the game though, and had spent actual time with him so I started to question this gag order and all the changes, but it in no way changed my programming about wanting that Big ''D.'' In private, old time premies spoke about Amaroo or India as ultimate destination points because they knew he gives toe kissing sessions in those places. I also experienced a lot of guilt because I no longer had the energy or desire to drop my life and spend all my money to travel those distances. I started to get very angry at him.

I don't know what premies say to newcomers about this now, but there must be some slick explanation because the fuckhead certainly has been not-so-subtly leaning toward personal devotion to him in his speaks--the same crap that took place after the infamous summer of 1976--when we, in his opinion, all became very BAD PREMIES (translated: bad people). If I remember correctly, during some of his '76 and '77 tours through the US he withheld toe kissing which for the true believer was torture and punishment. That's when the shit hit the fan and premies moved into ashrams in droves--especially once the 707 project was underway. He has to have what he wants, after all. The selfish bastard.

More devotion, more money. That's the name of the game for Rev. Doo-Bad. No, I never rationalized devotion--I was too busy obeying his agya and losing my real life.

Now that I know he never cared one bit about me, I am truly pissed that I would scrounge the last dollars I had to place in those darshan tunnel envelopes, or love card that I bought for him. Money which should have gone toward my food for the long drives home from those extravagant ''programs.'' (No wonder they call them events now.)

I'm still recovering from years and years of his mind-fuck. At least I don't feel guilt anymore, just a lot of anger!

Cynthia


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Date: Mon, May 07, 2001 at 03:18:06 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Premies don't rationlize, they crave....
Message:
Yeah, actually he called us 'two-faced monsters' at that program in Atlantic City in '76. Well, I guess it takes one to know one.
Gary
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 08:42:07 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: F arti
Subject: How is lotus feet kissing rationalised?
Message:
I used to think this about darshan (I was told so by the mahatmas as well) that I was receiving the divine energy of the universe that flowed from M's feet into my body.

The mahatma's told me that in order to fill a bucket with water it had to be held below the tap. So in order for the devotee to experience the blessings and grace of the master one had to bow beneath the lowest part of the gurus body as the divine energy of the master flowed down from his head and out through his feet.

I obviously bought that crock of shit as I lined up for the feet kissing thing every chance I could.

I also rationalized darshan by thinking that I would get a free ride or a boost into the upper registers of consciousness, that I would become a realized soul faster on the osmosis factor of direct contact with the living lord, more horseshit.

What I was doing was acting like a mindless zombie, expecting and imagining an experience that I fabricated based on prior programming. I was also being subserviant and doing the premie peer pressure thing by publicly prostrating before m, thereby surrendering my free will to him. It was a calculated mind fuck and I went for it, until I woke up.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 11:04:18 (GMT)
From: F arti
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: So his toilet must be getting a human body
Message:
In its' next incarnation,seing as though it is under the master and getting all that energy flowing into it.Sorry,I could not help it.
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 07:45:38 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: F arti
Subject: A provocative thought
Message:
But the reality of it is the toilet is getting the same thing we got for so long........ shit on
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:59:40 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: F arti
Subject: Foot Fetish cult. Toe jam football... (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 16:43:59 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: such
Subject: + in India,musicians pranam to their music guru(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:20:46 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: F arti
Subject: How is lotus feet kissing rationalised?
Message:
Must be quite old. Jesus washed the feet of the disciples and they were shocked by this. So it is not just Indian.

brings up another question:

How is ass kissing rationalized?

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 12:55:09 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: F arti
Subject: Or singing Arti to'Superior Power in Person..'(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:38:40 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Knowledge is carefully packaged
Message:
Enjoyinglife is a premie-run website designed for premies. They published reports on all four days of Amaroo, yet they never mentioned that Arti was sung on the last day. Why not? That would have been very interesting for the premies back home.

Everybody commented on the music and the comedians, but all were mum on darshan. Hmm?

The Miami program next week will start off with the 'Foundation Videos' which basically are instructions for premies on how to talk about Knowledge to new people. There is a constant concern by Rawat to carefully package his message.

Buy why? Is the truth ashamed of itself? Does beauty need to be explained? Does love require careful choreography? Does harmony come with instructions?

The poor premies really don't know what to say and what not to say. They don't know if they sing their Lord's praises if it will please him or annoy him. The rules of public expression keep changing. And the status of darshan and arti keep changing. Not to mention what Rawat wants to be called - nobody knows if he is now a teacher or not, a leader or not, a figurehead or not, a Perfect Master or just a master, or just a premie himself, or just 'you know who.' He seems to think that the premies have goofed it all up, but it is entirely his own fault because of his 30 years of contradictory proclamations, his packaging and re-packaging.

Why the never-ending adjustments? Why not just let it all hang out? It would be alot easier.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:20:53 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: yes, the fluctuations of org political correctness
Message:
Dear Way,

As the times and cultural attitudes have changed, and as cult awareness has increased, so too have cults and media massagers repackaged their messages accordingly - karma chameleons. In the process, they feel it necessary to periodically reindoctrinate their followers. Many of the followers don't apparently see the discrepancies in throwing out cult concepts, lingo and rituals that were formerly presented to them as divine.

Yet, as we have seen [time and again], when the cult is threatened, the charismatic cult leader will revert to the previously open [but now hidden] practices to reinstill loyalty among the troops. The layers of samsaras [mental impressions] run deep in long-time devotees, and many of them feel they are somehow part of a big divine secret being played upon everyone else - and they thereby feel that, in singing arti or doing the toe-kissing they are enjoying the now publicly 'forbidden fruit' in the West.

Apparently, 1-2 exes also learned their dogma lessons well in the cult ashrams, and so they do the flip side: try to impose - and even enforce - a rigid and ridiculous dogma of their own personal politics and cosmology as 'politically correct' doctrine here, too.

As far as I'm concerned, being an ex-premie means being Free -- Free to think as one pleases, without some beevis and buttheads trying to tyrannically presume to institute or ritualize any new doxology or inquisition of those who don't agree with their own ideological suppositions.

[Anyway, that was also on my mind this morning, as I was sitting in my office preparing a lecture about cultural revisionism in scientific historiography. I have also observed the ebb and flow of the tides of political incorrectness for many years within every educational, governmental, and non-profit organization and/or institution I have ever known or been associated with...]

Peace and lentils,

PS May run the final installment of the Halley thingy soon. am way busy, busy, busy...

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:12:45 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: such
Subject: You did it again, such, yer suchabanana
Message:
Nice post, but this part,

Apparently, 1-2 exes also learned their dogma lessons well in the cult ashrams, and so they do the flip side: try to impose - and even enforce - a rigid and ridiculous dogma of their own personal politics and cosmology as 'politically correct' doctrine here, too.

weakens it considerably.

I don't see Jim or anyone doing as you say. Why can't you allow Jim the same freedom you want for yourself?

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 07:59:35 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gErRy.Funny you should mention.On Human Respect...
Message:
Dear gerry,

Look, brother:

1. I didn't single anyone out in this post. But, see, apparently someone comes immediately to mind, huh?

2. I respect and tolerate anyone's right to believe in God or to be an agnostic or atheist, whatever.

3. I also respect and tolerate anyone's right to meditate, or not.

4. I respect anyone's right to pray, or not.

5. I respect anyone's right to subscribe to evolution theories, creation theories, creative evolution theories, devolution theories, symmetric theory, Big Bang theories, whatever. Furthermore, there is no single politically correct theory of evolution or creationism -- there are rather a myriad of such variations and offshoots. Prove any one of them conclusively. Who can? Nobody here. To condemn and degrade others for their own views on this subject (as has been done here) is tyrannical and nonsensical.

If we're discussing the guru or a book [for example], sometimes I personally enjoy humour that does not make the other person I am conversing with here the actual target. For instance, Sandy mentioned a book he read - ok, I am familiar with some of that stuff. I did my SNL skit without degrading him personally as the target of the humour, in the process. Rather: the Urantia book, the ascended brotherhood, etc. Years ago, I read a lot of books on those subjects. Plus, now some of these ascended master channels and gurus are on cable tv [e.g. Elizabeth Claire Prophet]. You will notice that I didn't say 'yer so -----in' stupid' etc. That would be a personal attack, gerry. There's a difference.

Now, I certainly think it's fair play here to rip a greedy guru - who is plainly in dysfunctional denial. I think those who come with clear good intentions merit our courtesy, however, and those who are at least polite likewise deserve some measure of civility -- even if we disagree with their opinions or beliefs.

On the other hand, what I do not respect or countenance is the attempt by anyone to behave harmfully or sadistically to those who are clearly in pain, trying out their wings, expressing their own sense of freedom or vulnerability, or questioning their previous belief systems.

I also think that it is patently uncivilized, anti-social behaviour, and counter-productive to routinely engage in demeaning buzzwords and expressions that stereotype other people here, to degrade, abuse and humiliate other exes and premies for sport - or out of sheer malice, to degrade those who are receiving professional/medical counselling, therapy, or using medication, or to rotely dismiss other's points of view with profanities (or blatant racist and sexist terms). That's not just politically correct, either -- that's called being a civilized being in the modern world.

Further, the usage of language IS important, gerry. Sure, it's a lot easier to tell someone to bleep off or call them a vulgar name, or label anything we disagree with as 'new agey', etc. than to simply take the time and care to practice civility and intelligence -- or to just exercise a little self-restraint and practice sensibility.

I also don't respect aggressive, nasty bullying of the meek. Never have, and never will.

These are my opinions, too, of course, gerry. But, I have observed that Many others here have shared and repeated these same concerns regarding civility and empathy. For, when there is no empathy or compassion for others, when we do not recognize or respect the humanity in others, then we are practicing the path of despicability.

I believe in a forum free from fear -- yes, it is a fact that many exes and questioning premies lurk but don't post here, for that very reason; they simply do not wish to be degraded as human beings, or insensitively savaged, or have their wounds or scars reopened or rent asunder by the fangs of any would-be jackals or hyenas in human form.

Of course, these expressed concerns may even seem idealistic to some. However, to me, they are the mark of whether someone is civilized, a genuine human being, or worthy of engaging in any conversation. In every place where I have worked in the last 15 years, such factors are considered a matter of basic, common decency -- and necessary for general social harmony, well-being, and productivity.

After all, do we want to be snakes and hyenas, or respectable men, Gerry? I mean, we talk about the abuses of the cult; what about modes of abuse in communication here, too, and in the other areas of our lives? Same thing. Have we learned nothing about how to treat our fellow human beings? Sure, there is the easy low path that leads to the disfunctional and filthy stye, and then there is that road of fellowship, a little harder, but which leads on high -- where we treat each other respectfully as brothers and sisters, and politely acknowledge each other's respective rights to her/his own individual perceptions and inherent identity.

Even in democratic republics, it is said that your right to freedom ends where another person's nose [or face] begins. Same thing with words here, gerry. The written word can be a powerful tool - however, once written, it may be even harder to retract. Words and written communications can also be abused; frankly, I don't see the need for an ex-premie Mein Kampf or an oppressive mentality that instills fear, suspicions, loathing or misapprehensions among all these good and decent people.

Now, rather than respond curtly or dismissively, see the time I have taken to communicate my thoughts here to you?

Ok, better sign off here now.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 05:24:55 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: HEAR! HERE! - yet another *BEST OF FORUM* (nt)
Message:
Well said, as usual.
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:09:35 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: pedantic and condescending
Message:
You didn't have to 'single anyone out' with your post, Such. (What's your real name anyway, and why are you hiding? I dislike talking with 'ghosts.')

You made it obvious with comments such as 'good thing someone's on vacation, te he he.' And of course, with your famous, violent, and physically threatening posts to Jim in the very recent past. So you're just being dishonest here, swamiji.

How much 'civility' must we expend on recalcitrant, verbose gasbags who have nothing better to do than to deliberately bait people here, albeit in a thin veneer of civilty not unlike your own.

What you call 'abuses of communication' have been just the thing that changed many a person's mind about rawat and his cult. I have seen dozens of posts here thanking Jim for his uncompromising stance. This happens frequently, in spite of his sometimes grating style.

But I don't attempt the futile and needless task of reforming Jim. And you are not going to change him one iota, all your admonishments and threats aside.

I don't need a lecture about democratic rights, either. I am well versed in the subject. Jim is not violating anyone's rights here but you seem intent on denying him his right to express himself as he sees fit.

There are as many communication styles as there are people, in case you haven't figured that one out for yourself. I certainly don't claim to know what moves people. And moving people out of the cult is the reason we do this, right? Jim is effective. Is that what really bothers you about him?

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:49:15 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gErRy, fine, now take a piss somewhere else. LOL
Message:
Look, bro:

When you apparently weren't around or paying attention, someone and I already sorted out about 90% of things.

Also, te he he, I was just kindly teasing poor Sandy - 'cause someone would have probably given him a hard time for posting certain heretical, alleged 'new agey' things.

Also, ok, what may be effective for some people clearly does NOT work on Many others -- too 'grating'. But, then, that requires some understanding, empathy, and sensitivity - which is evidently sorely lacking.

And, yes, if deliberately provoked and jerked around by somebody, well, then I am also a master of gamesmanship and gnarly karmic instruction. But I think we've dealt with that already now, man.

Now, if you don't like talking with 'ghosts', then don't bother posting to 'em. Simple, easy. So, myob, on that account. I will tell you something, though: Swami Suchabanana was actually my nickname [it began as a bro roommate's reference to a most generous endowment that got lots of gorgeous babe action]. gErRy, I don't know you, either, except for what you write here. I mean, we never had some good beers together or went to a football game, or lived in the same 'shram or premie house. I play on MY Terms, too -- Not yours, miragey's, or anyone else's anymore.

Talk about 'baiting' people! C'mon - Get ReAl!, gErRy - look in the MiRrOr YoUrsElf! [how 'bout that gEnTleManLy gEm you posted: 'show me your tits', for starters. Sounds like a crude redneck logger in a backwoods stripper bar.]

Lastly, I do like providing some healthy levity here and sharing occasional genuine moments of my own insights or inspiration. That's essentially why I'm here, gErRy -- to be of service to others. I don't need this site for myself at all; it takes up time, and it's sometimes a distraction. I've got all kinds of other things happening in my life. Oh, yes -- I've got a life, too, brother. But, after having my openness and honesty abused and ripped off by others for many many years, I am rightfully protective of my personal space and boundaries, and most particular about the company I keep.

Which reminds me, I gotta get back and do some work now...

Pees and lotsa lavs,

your banana buddy

PS I was truly sorry to hear what happened to your spouse. There are a lot of crazy and reckless drivers out there. I hope she's feeling a Lot Better now. I always watch out for those young'uns with the big-wheel pickups, especially. Kinda makes a body want to buy a Humvee.

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 01:23:57 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: such
Subject: That's a rather vulgar characterization, swamiji
Message:
When you apparently weren't around or paying attention, someone and I already sorted out about 90% of things.

I'm glad to hear you stopped threatening people with physical violence. That's a step in the right direction. Now perhaps you could grant me the same recognition. That is, that the oh so horrible 'tits' comment I made (hmm,how does that compare with your threats of volence?) was written to a person I now get along quite well with, you'll be happy to know.

o, te he he, I was just kindly teasing poor Sandy - 'cause someone would have probably given him a hard time for posting certain heretical, alleged 'new agey' things.

OK anything you say is 'funny' and 'kind.' Got it.

Also, ok, what may be effective for some people clearly does NOT work on Many others -- too 'grating'. But, then, that requires some understanding, empathy, and sensitivity - which is evidently sorely lacking.

This paragraph me no capichey, prof. Wanna try again?

And, yes, if deliberately provoked and jerked around by somebody, well, then I am also a master of gamesmanship and gnarly karmic instruction. But I think we've dealt with that already now, man.

Yes, master, we have dealt with it. Can I ask a question? How tall are you?

Now, if you don't like talking with 'ghosts', then don't bother posting to 'em. Simple, easy.

Not so easy, swami. Like it or not, I seem to be engaged in this conversation with you.

So, myob, on that account.

Why, what are you afraid of? Why isn't the identity of someone I'm reading and posting to on a regular basis my business?


I will tell you something, though: Swami Suchabanana was actually my nickname [it began as a bro roommate's reference to a most generous endowment that got lots of gorgeous babe action].

Are you drunk or something? This is one of the stupidest things I've read on this forum in a long time. Wait, 'stupid' may not be the right word. I'll get back to you on that.

gErRy, I don't know you, either, except for what you write here. I mean, we never had some good beers together or went to a football game, or lived in the same 'shram or premie house. I play on MY Terms, too -- Not yours, miragey's, or anyone else's anymore.

Lay off the 'gErRy' will you? I'll post as gerry or Gerry or gErRy under my own terms, thanks.

Talk about 'baiting' people! C'mon - Get ReAl!

What would you call it then, swami, you're the guy with all the answwers.

gErRy - look in the MiRrOr YoUrsElf! [how 'bout that gEnTleManLy gEm you posted: 'show me your tits', for starters. Sounds like a crude redneck logger in a backwoods stripper bar.]

I think we've dealt with that already now, man. ('Already now' wince, wince.)

Lastly, I do like providing some healthy levity here and sharing occasional genuine moments of my own insights or inspiration. That's essentially why I'm here, gErRy -- to be of service to others. I don't need this site for myself at all; it takes up time, and it's sometimes a distraction.

Well well well. We agree on something. I've done every bit as much of that as you have and more of it. True, I've gotten into some rough fights, but that's life. I'm not a swami and so I'm prone to such things. Ten years on the streets tends to make a person a little testy.


I've got all kinds of other things happening in my life. Oh, yes -- I've got a life, too, brother. But, after having my openness and honesty abused and ripped off by others for many many years, I am rightfully protective of my personal space and boundaries, and most particular about the company I keep.

Yes Such, we all know how wonderful and busy you are. Were DO you ever get the time to give darshan?

Which reminds me, I gotta get back and do some work now...

Pees and lotsa lavs,

your banana buddy

PS I was truly sorry to hear what happened to your spouse. There are a lot of crazy and reckless drivers out there. I hope she's feeling a Lot Better now. I always watch out for those young'uns with the big-wheel pickups, especially. Kinda makes a body want to buy a Humvee.

Thanks for the sentiments about Patty and the rest. Oh, and she was struck by a fifty something woman (co-employee.) I'm sure it's all good advice but I'm really not the violent type. I leave that to you well endowed gnarly karma masters. (snicker)

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:22:47 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: vulgar? You referred to my female friend as a c--t
Message:
gerry,

who you kiddin' here, anyway?! You called my honourable friend a c---. Remember?

If you wanna talk with me, cut the crapola. I also saw You flame JH with a 'F--- Y--' JH tag on every post he did one week here.

threats? tehehe You're quite mistaken, rather a cordial invitation in response to repeated provocations. Just between 2 acquaintances, anyway, neither of whom is you.

Who cares how tall? but, Definitely tall Enough...

If you wanna mince words, go bake some pie, or play Scrabble with somebody.

If you wanna know who you're talking to, wait and see - maybe. But that's strictly on a need-to-know basis, and frankly, with your bad attitude, right now you clearly Don't need to know.

Well, if you got some beef, go get some buns and have a barbecue in the backyard with the fam, man. It's still Friday night! Geez Louise, already...

Ciao. The drummer and B-3 player just pulled up for a session.

Peace and lentils,

PS Oh, I see you like snickers, too.

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 16:14:40 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Sorry I'm not as en
Message:
gerry,

who you kiddin' here, anyway?! You called my honourable friend a c---. Remember?

No I don't remember. And when did you start using British spelling and affectations?

If you wanna talk with me, cut the crapola. I also saw You flame JH with a 'F--- Y--' JH tag on every post he did one week here.

Sure I did. At least I did it to his face and didn't wait until he was on vacation to take little passive-aggressive digs at him. I guess that was my whole point with this discussion. I started out saying I liked your post but that the not-so-subtle swipe at Jim was uncalled for and weakened your post. Now I think it was just plain cowardly.

threats? tehehe You're quite mistaken, rather a cordial invitation in response to repeated provocations. Just between 2 acquaintances, anyway, neither of whom is you.

So what if it wasn't me. YOU threaten Jim and now you are dissembling.

Who cares how tall? but, Definitely tall Enough...

Tall enough for what? I just wanted to know how bad your Napoleon complex really is, that's all.

If you wanna mince words, go bake some pie, or play Scrabble with somebody.

I don't mince words and you know it. And I hate scrabble.

If you wanna know who you're talking to, wait and see - maybe. But that's strictly on a need-to-know basis, and frankly, with your bad attitude, right now you clearly Don't need to know.

I really don't give a shit but everyone here seems to know who you are and I'm sure someone will fill me in so, no sweat.

Well, if you got some beef, go get some buns and have a barbecue in the backyard with the fam, man. It's still Friday night! Geez Louise, already...

Thanks for the good wishes but I'm vegetarian now and the thought of eating beef literally makes me gag.

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 20:31:33 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: gerry, let's get some things straight here
Message:
r.e. spellings and 'affectations'? I was born in England, then raised in a number of other countries thereafter. So, if you don't like it, go pull some wings off flies -- or hopefully something more constructive.

When I was gone for 3 weeks, 'somebody' and pals posted malicious Lies: that I was supposedly having gay sex for years with the mahatmas. Talk about cowardly! Now, cordially inviting someone to back up their lies with their guts is not a threat - but an honourable tradition among gents for receiving satisfaction. Also, the other party Never 'fessed up or apologized, but I Did - twice. So, who's the Bigger person now, mister?! Also, what I did was clearly a point of instruction. (In retrospect, however, the big bosses suggested I use the 'quip', not the 'whip.' But I Don't take baloney from anyone - Anyone. Got it?!)

Napoleon complex? What utter poppycock. I'm not into illusory empires or mirages. How 'bout you, gerry? I Know Your Style - You got a serious toilet talk (or 4-letter word) complex? Hey, then you should hook up again with miragey. He loves toilet talk, too - of course, his is politer than yours. (snicker) So, clean up your own act!

now, r.e. vegetarian. me, too, even before the cult. Had a lil' calf - my animal friend. Came home from elementary school one day. Where's Willy? Can't hear his lil' bell out in the pasture or behind the barn. At dinner: 'Daddy, where's Willy? I can't find him anywhere.' 'He's on your plate. You're eating him.' 'Waaaaaaaaa'... I don't eat anything that had a face, or eggs.

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 20:57:33 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: gkl1@techline.com
To: such
Subject: whaaat?
Message:
r.e. spellings and 'affectations'? I was born in England, then raised in a number of other countries thereafter. So, if you don't like it, go pull some wings off flies -- or hopefully something more constructive.

OK It now looks like a cheap shot--sorry.


When I was gone for 3 weeks, 'somebody' and pals posted malicious Lies: that I was supposedly having gay sex for years with the mahatmas. Talk about cowardly! Now, cordially inviting someone to back up their lies with their guts is not a threat - but an honourable tradition among gents for receiving satisfaction. Also, the other party Never 'fessed up or apologized, but I Did - twice. So, who's the Bigger person now, mister?! Also, what I did was clearly a point of instruction. (In retrospect, however, the big bosses suggested I use the 'quip', not the 'whip.' But I Don't take baloney from anyone - Anyone. Got it?!)

Who did this? If this is true this changes everything. I thought you wrote that post (the one which was removed by the FA for threats) just because you didn't like his style. Please fill me in on this--this is important to me. I need to have it spelled out, if you can. Email if necessary?

Napoleon complex? What utter poppycock. I'm not into illusory empires or mirages. How 'bout you, gerry? I Know Your Style - You got a serious toilet talk (or 4-letter word) complex? Hey, then you should hook up again with miragey. He loves toilet talk, too - of course, his is politer than yours. (snicker) So, clean up your own act!

OK napolean complex is a person of short statue who compensate for his height with braggadocio. This other stuff 'go back to Miragey' is silly, such. I'm not really into scatology and please don't characterize me as being so. It's kinda like saying you had gay sex with mahatmas, although I understand it's a matter of degree.

now, r.e. vegetarian. me, too, even before the cult. Had a lil' calf - my animal friend. Came home from elementary school one day. Where's Willy? Can't hear his lil' bell out in the pasture or behind the barn. At dinner: 'Daddy, where's Willy? I can't find him anywhere.' 'He's on your plate. You're eating him.' 'Waaaaaaaaa'... I don't eat anything that had a face, or eggs.

Yikes.

Peace and lentils,

You too.

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 22:11:22 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: ok, now. (ot
Message:
gerry,

but if I email you, keep it to yourself. agreed?

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 22:15:16 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: such
Subject: ok, now. (ot
Message:
Yes, agreed.
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Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 05:31:48 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: such
Subject: No way
Message:
I don't believe Jim Heller had anything to do with starting or participating in spreading rumors about your having sex with mahatmas. It's just too far out of character. I've never known Jim to lie. I have met Jim in person and unless he admits it or someone proves it, I say this is as much a smear job as was apparently done on you. It's possible someone wants you to believe it was Jim. Have you thought of that?
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:57:41 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: On Human Respect...very well put, Such
Message:
Apparently the ancient Greek word ''hubris'' originally meant to touch someone inappropriately; to push or shove someone. Then it came to mean to insult someone verbally. A rude person was said to have ''hubris.'' Only later did it come to mean what we now understand it to mean - arrogant egotism.
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 11:12:44 (GMT)
From: F arti
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: They are not going to mention arti and darshan
Message:
on the enjoying life site as there are some newborn premies,remember 25 people got the gift just before Amaroo.I can guarantee most of them have never heard of arti or darshan.I also know that they were not told about the cost of going.It would have been free for them to attend.They cannot be scared off too early in the peace ( so to speak)It is best to let them find out slowly and then they will also let it become part of the brainwashing.Cults are very clever.
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 02:53:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: You did it again, Way! Beautifully said.
Message:
You said: ''Is the truth ashamed of itself? Does beauty need to be explained? Does love require careful choreography? Does harmony come with instructions?''

What more can I add except to say that I wish to god that Sandy would go back and do synchronized participation and see for himself how You Know Who and his You Know What are being slyly and deceitfully marketed.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 01:06:24 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: z
To: Way
Subject: Great world marketing synopsis! Gary / Way nt
Message:
q
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:48:52 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Knowledge is carefully packaged
Message:
It goes something like this: A message can only be as clear as the one giving it. Either m or EV honchos decided that for the sake of so-called 'clarity' and consistency only m would speak about it. This is called 'quality' control. This also applies to the revealing of the techniques. As with all things in the latter part of the 20th century and into the 21st century there is a trend towards homogenous uniformity. No matter where you grow up in the States and Canada, for instance, there is the phenomena of the 'big box' stores and shopping malls and fast food outlets that are almost identical whether you are in Albeqerque (sp?) or Vancouver. So there is now a kind of MacDonaldization of the presentation of m&k. Instead of just receiving a burger and fries and going on your merry way however you must recognize the supremacy of the *Chef* along with your order of charbroiled *keys to the kingdom of heaven*. As with all franchises with a strong head office you are not allowed to deviate from the 'master plan'. M or EV is also attempting to replicate the efficient systems of successful franchises with corporate trainings, etc. Only problem is m is not getting the repeat and new business he hoped for and a lot of the people eating at his restaurant are complaining of a severe case of Montezuma's revenge.
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:30:59 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: m. is Costco Guru, Inc. (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:49:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: LOL - great post, Gary
Message:
Urug 1-jar-a-ham needs careful, 'quality-controlled' product placement and salestalk not to lose market share. Exactly.

Shame about the customer feedback bit...

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 17:49:38 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: carefully packaged
Message:
It might be interesting to get a transcript of this on the ex premie website, of course with highlights how it was done in the past
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:44:26 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Hey, Mel
Message:
Mel,

Did you manage to attend Amaroo? I know you were planning on it? I'm so curious. Did you manage to get retuned and connected to the Master? Or did the drops keep falling?

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 07:12:45 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hear this from a Reiki master
Message:
I picked up this book belonging to a friend. It is called 'Reiki a beginner's guide'. The author is Sandi Leir Shuffrey and she is a 'Reiki master'.
Here is an excerpt(page 83),
'In my search to be me and accepted as such, a friend introduced me to Maharaji. I was initiated into the 'Knowledge' of Guru Maharaji in 1981, a then 21-year-old Americanised Asian with a wife and four children. He gives a direct experience of the Knowledge of God through four techniques namely Inner Light, Inner Sound, and Inner Feeling (Reiki bing the Inner Touch). I needed to give nothing except myself and a commitment to myself to maintain the connection. That connection is not dependent on the technique although enhanced by it. It is the ultimate relationship of Master/Student/Knowledge of God. This I still practice.'

This was first published in 1998.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 08:17:45 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: falling through the cracks
Message:
I do not know if this is the situation here, but is this not something to be jealous about?
Somebody walks in satsang, hangs in there for a while, gets k. and drifts away and lives happily ever after?
Those people sometimes even practising for years must have had a natural immunity or a good guardian angel.
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:19:49 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will
Message:
I have been thinking a lot about the damage done to us(or at least, me) by our unfortunate sojourn in Rawatland.
I keep thinking of Nigel’s 3rd sort of damage that he talks about in his ‘Journey’… that is ‘motivational damage’.
For me, this has been the most insidious, ‘hard to spot’, effect of ‘handing over the reins of my life’ to ‘The Lord’.
Erosion of motivation = erosion of your will.

The ... (trying to find a suitable adjective here – ‘awful?’, ‘tragic?’, ‘horrendous?’) consequences of handing over my own precious will to the Hamster have taken 23 years to understand and come to terms with.

Rawat's 'philosophy' (for want of a much better and exceedingly offensive word)along the tedious lines of 'you are a leaf blown in the wind' or ' you can't steer your boat, you can only adjust the sails to the prevailing wind',has had an interesting effect on my life. If you are repeatedly told that what you want will do you no good(cos it's all maya,'world as illusion', only REAL desire is to be a devotee etc.) then you cease to know, not only what you what, but WHO YOU ARE.

A list of some of the consequences of damage to my own will (and sense of who I was)run as follows:

1 Selling my entire record collection (cos any non-devotional music threatened to encourage 'the mind')

2 Moving from a beautiful house in the country where i had choesn to live to a inner-city hole (cos you couldn't get knowledgeee if you weren't in a 'community')

3 Neglecting old friends cos they were 'in their minds'(or fretting about them cos they didn't want K)

4 Marrying my premie boy-friend cos Ann Johnston told him to propose and the community co-ordinator seconded it (Ann Johnston's 'agya'-not the proposal)

5 Sending my kids to school, even though I was going to home-educate them when they were little (cos Hamster said you should not get into alternative-type trips, but follow 'well-trodden paths' and it wasn't the time to get into home-education 'trips')

6 Not studying psychology (or anything else for that matter) because what was the use - only the Lord could help mankind... no use ignorant (full of the impurities of this world) old me trying to do anything good (I hadn't a clue what i was talking about)

7 Most of all - having a repeated sense that anything I 'wanted' to do or be was doomed because it was 'worldly' (similar to Christian/Buddhist 'the world is suffering' philosophy). Well, yes, there is suffering in the world, but there is happiness too.

I'd like to thank my friends here on FV, and my friends in 3 dimensions, and most of all my best friend, for being there and (whether they know it or not) helping me rediscover my very own life.


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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 11:20:33 (GMT)
From: Bryn
Email: Bryndaviesesq@hotmail.com
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will
Message:
Dear Moldy
Hello to you. Nice post, well said I say.
I am convinced that we are actually evolving, and not suffering from wasted time.
I visited the house of a seriously spiritual/functional person a couple of days ago. An individual who had concentrated, dedicated, and was concerned and articulate-focused too, and for all I know 'grateful'. They weren't a premie. All I can say is keep me away from god, goodness, serious attempts at 'will', saving the planet, saving myself, and bollocks to it all.
In the words of one youth;People who talk talk shite.
Love Bryn
ps New ways must be found. Let us find them.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 09:44:27 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will
Message:
You say it so very well.
When i was a premie, everything we did was only o.k.
when it was towards rawats world
All of my own things, i wanted to do , was really a waste
of time . what a mindfuck, i cant belive that it really was
me, and it is only 16 months ago .i was like this.
Reading your post makes me feel a lot of anger
and a lot of sadness,,
hope that someday we can pay him back

Ex premie org. Deserves a lot of thanks, and so does all
the people here.

Thank you Ulf

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 09:18:38 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will
Message:
Oh Molds...it makes me sad to think of what we have been through... I cam emphathise with you every step of the way...I hug you.

Lots of love

Oafie
x

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 11:53:02 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Hey Oafie - it makes me sad too
Message:
Even when we're incredibly happy there's sometimes a questioning voice... it's a doubt that we can trust ourselves to guide ourselves...it's nothing other than that hole gouged out of us by a fucking cult.
Big hug to you too
OT How's the song going babe?xxx
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 13:33:11 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: i think is different for everyone...
Message:
but there is something really wonderful in coming through all this together

something which is really worth celebrating.....

I am learning so much... leaps and bounds .. and it sure beats working in a factory.... I think the recognition for me is that M played a part in my psychological journey for a while - but he never was the destination....but the motivation of my train was always sincere, no matter what he was doing... it wasnt my fault..even if I bought into the shite.. It was with very sincere reasons, and i am so glad to be on the road again after a brief derailment.

let us celebrate our selves and our time and the treasures and people we have in this fucked up comedy of errors...

Love to you - I should like to get rat arsed with you both next time.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 21:07:03 (GMT)
From: mOLDY wARP
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Loaf - rat-arsed - the 3 of us -you're on xx nt
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 08:57:37 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will--wow. yeaah
Message:
eery one of you said something that hit and went in.
i look back at my 48 years and I'm puzzled why i still havent done anything with my life.I'm not interested in making money. once upon a time i was. I'm not doing my artwork. once upon a time you couldnt keep me from it. I'm not doing my sewing, but there was a time when,,you couldnt keep me from it.

I had a brain. a ferocious intellect. I was honor society, mensa, national merit scholarship scorer. I wanted to revamp education, to teach gifted kids, to inaugurate a new knd of school. I wanted to home school my offspring my own self. I wanted to build a dream homestead in fertile woods and life whole earth catalog style. I thought i would grow up to bne a liberator of human potential, a touring speaker and seminar giver rousing people to new heights of knowing.

and when i look at what happened, i burn, deep in the center of me.

whoev remarked about giving their ecord collection away--that was me, too. one of the first things I resolved to do after i lost y son and got away form my family and the mental hospital in 1982, was to regather back up as much of my life before Premiehood as I could. It came back in strange ways. I went dumpster diving the alleys of Denver capital hill for 10 years. sometimes no knowing where i was being taken or led. I followed a call that would come tap me and tell me it was time, and out the door I'd go. But I found parts of myself, parts of my life, that had been taken away or i had thrown awy that i never should have let anyone do to me:
I found a girl scout knife just the same as the one i once owne I have it still, on my keychain right now. I found a brownie scout handbook and pin, and then a cap, same as i wore when i was 7. i started collecting vynil LP's, going back to my childhood, even to my parents tastes, my junior high years, my highschool and college days. and beyond, into the 'forbidden' music we werent allowed to listen to in the ashram years. I felt a vengeance like stabbing some hideaous beast thru its heart, each time i reclaimed another one.
tonight i blew 7 bucks in a thrift store on some more LP's. strange memories surfaced when i got home and played some of them. there are several more to play before i file them in their timeline with my others. I feel strange tonight, not in my past nor in the prsent and not in the future either. my friend who left another cult years ago says I'm right on scheduel for the process. It feels shitty, but if its taking me to me as i am supposed to be, as god intentionally made me to be, I'll endure the yuck.

the sheer scale of the falsehood overwhelms me. how much of what i am right now is a mask? how many things do i have in my house right now that aren't what I would sorround myself with if i were never in the damned cult? how would I have been, by now, if I had been acting on my own, and not given myself to this stupid thing?? what would I have? what would I be by now? who would I know? where would i be living? what would I be doing?
it absolutely pisses me off and depresses me at the same time.i want ME! i want my own life! i was supposed to be brilliant, a strong woman, a light to humanity! and instead i got co opted by this smirking little con. it makes me want to lead an army up to malibu and bulldoze his house down and take away everything as plunder!

and yet still it wouldnt give me, me back.

I'm the only one who can do that.

but you guys sure help. keep it goin.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 07:12:52 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: sharkdc@aol.com
To: everyone
Subject: surrendering the reins of your life
Message:
There is somthing very seductive and tempting about this concept of turning your life and will over to somthing or someone who purports to be in tune with a higher power. This in essence is the state we find ourselfs in as newly born infants, that is totally dependant on an unknown source of care (our parents) who attend to all of our needs and wants without our having to lift a finger for ourselves. Who wouldn't want to recreate this situation of totally being taken care of, it lacks the uncertainy and danger of being an adult. The notion that we can do this with God, whatever we consider him/her to be seems to relieve us of alot of anxiety over our how our lives will work out. A similiar concept is notion of surrendering or not being attached to the fruits of our actions. Life is fraught with unforseen circumstances often things don't work out the way we would like them to, often we are dissapointed, experience loss, sorrow ect. I f we are encouraged to condition our selfs to not be 'attached' to the outcome of our actions this seems to lessen our concern and anxiety about the outcome of our actions.

The problem comes really when we surrender the reins of our life to an untrustworthy or incompetant person who cannot be relied upon to make decisions that are in our best intrest. When this happens we run the risk of being given bad advice and being exploited for that persons own selfish purposes. This is what happened to many of us with Miragey. We wanted to be infantilized, to be cared for by Big Daddy, if you doubt that consider these lyrics. 'so rock me Maharaji, and roll me tonight, so rock me
Maharaj Ji and say it's alright' . Rockaby Baby remember? Just like your Mama and Daddy did when you were an infant right? We wanted to feel secure, to believe that everything was gonna be alright, to be taken care of by Big Mother/Father God who'd pop that big meditation titty into our mouths and suckle us to sleep. Somehow we were not getting that type of assurance from the culture we were living in and sought to create these conditions for ourselfs. In exchange for this pschological crutch, we gave all of our time money and enthusiasm to M which he exploited to enrich himself.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:21:08 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: So True, DPGAJ
Message:
Wow, that all really rang true, what you just said, DeProgram. In fact, everything in this thread has been really profound, everyone's had amazing insights.

It's funny, because this is one aspect of having been in the cult that I've sort of ignored and not explored very much, the residual damage to my sense of self and self-esteem. It's almost as if I'm afraid to look. You know, sometimes I think I hang out here just for entertainment value because it's so interesting, and the people are fun, but when I come across things like what's been said in this thread it makes me realize I'm sitting on a whole giant pile of un-worked-through stuff that needs dealing with before I can ever feel whole and complete.

This substitution of Maharaji as 'Big Daddy'/mother figure really rings true (Disculta--what've you got to say??). Before receiving K I used to suffer from vague anxiety attacks which resulted in difficulty sleeping (at the tender age of 18) and have had lots of problems with it since, as well, though it is lessening as time goes by. But it's curious to me that during the entire almost ten years I was in the cult I had virtually NO anxiety, and not so much as one sleepless night, ever. I slept like a baby the entire time. Now that may be due to the fact that I was overworked in my service all those years and just plain exhausted, or the fact that meditation puts you into a soporific state, or the fact that substituting M as an all-knowing, safe, big-daddy who cared about me replaced the fear of the unknown. Could have been all three put together. But I'd certainly rather now face the demons of existence than bury my head in his feet and pretend it's all bliss and enjoyment of life. Way too simplistic and like you said, DeProgram, exploitable to the max. As the old saying goes 'The only way out is through!'

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 17:14:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Another tit -- owning my own sh*t
Message:
'Guru Maharaji Ji, you are so big,
and I am so small.
But when you shine, you shine for all,
yes you shine for all my Lord.

Though the sun may fall
and the moon may die
I will always love you forever.'

--yeah, the big guy. He was going to save us. But the whole construct, the whole guru concept and the organization was another trap I struggled against from day one. I usually heard the voices under the ice, sometimes only faintly. The only reason I slept well in the ashram (or out of it) was sleep deprivation. Two hours of meditation, arti, stasang, service, job -- where was there time for sleep?? There was a spritual angst bubbling under there. Not to say that I was constantly haunted. It came and it went.

I can say that I used the time in the cult to keep those voices down there, and avoid some things I am dealing with now. So the cult used me, but I have to understand that I used it. I was suicidal, and I couldn't deal with life. ('The full catastrophe' as Zorba the Greek put it.)

If I don't understand this, and see how I have carried my cult-like behaviour into other areas, I am in danger of finding another tit to cling to. Wildflower is so right on. Stuff is still coming back that I 'left behind' in 1973--or so I thought. So I have to understand why I used the cult to stuff a sock in it. It's kind of like soul retrieval. Some indigenous people believe that when traumatic events happen, there are parts of your soul, or self, that 'shard' off or are otherwise separated from us. Modern psychologists might call it some form of disassociation. The idea of soul retrieval work, or certain types of psychological work, is to claim that stuff back. At the time that those parts of us 'shard off,' it is usually due to a real urge for survival. We can't deal with it, so we send it away. The problem is when we send it away so far that we can't get it back, or forget it is even out there. Some of those parts of ourselves are necessary to deal with today, the here and now.

The work of claiming ourselves back again is the joyful and empowering part of this process.

Love you, f

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 03:39:23 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: This part shook something loose in me
Message:
Moldy, for me this was brilliant:

Rawat's 'philosophy' (for want of a much better and exceedingly offensive word)along the tedious lines of 'you are a leaf blown in the wind' or ' you can't steer your boat, you can only adjust the sails to the prevailing wind',has had an interesting effect on my life. If you are repeatedly told that what you want will do you no good(cos it's all maya,'world as illusion', only REAL desire is to be a devotee etc.) then you cease to know, not only what you what, but WHO YOU ARE.

The other thing was that when I listened to this type of abuse, not just from Rawat, but from the Catholics and the Buddhists or whatever spritual teacher was on the soapbox, I felt it hit somewhere so deep in me, that I was lost and hopeless.

I took it to be the deepest truth. How programmed and Pavlovian of me. Tell me my deepest fear is true, fer sure, fer sure, I'll follow you anywhere. You've just confirmed my worst fears. Hallelulia, I've hit the bottom. Nowhere to go but up, and you/your philosophy/your church/your god is takin' me there. Gospel train. So insane.

The other thing I stopped doing so many times is playing music, being creative, doing art. Because, as you said, I didn't know who I was anymore. What did I have to say that was of any interest to anyone when these great spritual schmoopavatis had the whole schtick down, something that would take me more time than I have left in this life. So I stopped expressing myself, because it was not only useless, it was 'manifestations of my confused mind' or 'impure views.' Oh, oh, oh.

Thanks for shaking that clod of my own stupidity out of my head, Moldy. Is this group therapy or what? The people who tell us to get a life haven't a clue. We not only have gotten our lives, we're reclaiming parts of them we didn't even know we'd given away.

love --f

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 13:18:48 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: This part shook something loose in me
Message:
Hey Francesca (and all),
If you are repeatedly told that what you want will do
you no good(cos it's all maya,'world as illusion', only REAL desire is to be a devotee etc.) then you cease to know, not only what you what, but WHO YOU ARE.

I can't remember a time in my life when I was NOT told that what I wanted personally was unimportant - and that if I did want something, or want to do something for myself, I was selfish. This wasn't just spiritual either - it was negative programming about being female, and the result of living with parents who were alcoholics and needed to be taken care of. Of course, I fell for M's similar programming hook, line, and sinker - it felt COMFORTABLE! And it made me feel less guilty for being alive.

It takes a long time (maybe forever) to get over this stuff. I still have a lot of trouble doing something for MYSELF only - like art - although I can do it to help someone else easily. I still feel selfish when I am not 'serving' or 'helping' other people all the time. I still feel that WHO I AM is unimportant - although, thankfully, not all the time anymore!

There is a book about American Buddhism called 'Chop Wood, Carry Water', which is OK. However, one thing said in it stood out for me, and helped me change my life. It was the line 'You've got to be somebody before you can be nobody.' In other words, don't try to kill your ego before you even have one, or you can go nuts. I agree.

Love -
Katie

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:21:41 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Fake God-in-a-frock can fuck off
Message:
Sorry but I'm not too profound at the moment. Fuck him, the bastard. It's all 180 degrees wrong. Everything fake-God-in-a-frock said was a load of old tripe and if people had done the exact opposite of what he said, then they'd be miles better off.

One way in which god-in-a-frock is dangerous is if you listen to him and believe any of the codswallap that he spouts. That is dangerous to all people. To put it in a nutshell - the guy's pure poison and the quicker people run from him, the better for them.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:30:28 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Fake God-in-a-frock can fuck off
Message:
Fuck him indeed - a bit of healthily expressed anger never did anyone any harm. Which makes me think of another point - which i think I'll post as new thread - namely - the whole 'judging' stuff.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 00:45:54 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: God-in-a-Bod fucks with my will
Message:
Today, just an hour ago or so, pinched my finger in the damned cabinet getting the mop to clean up juice I spilled while trying to open the bottle.
It hurt and I started crying hysterically.
On the phone afterwards I asked someone - how old am I anyway to fall apart like that over this dumb thing?
Of course I realize it's not the incident per se but worrying over a mess of a life I have to still clean up over. I've been doing a lot of that, the working it out that keeps spilling over.
Let's add arrested development to the list, or perhaps it's all inclusive in the list you already typed out. Sometimes i think the oldest I must be emotionally is 30 and that's a strong hope.
And along with M telling us all the time, 3 years ago I would have called some premie and been reinforced that all this shit in this life was all just that, shit, and I'd be lulled into some sort of non-peaceful numbness.
Thanks Moldy Warp. I know it's hard to face these things but it's worse not to. TALK ABIUT FREAKIN' ROTTING VEGIES Mhahahaha!!!!
Someone got my antiques and records in the 70s' too.
selene still cleaning up messes
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:02:29 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Tell me about it Selene
Message:
Extricating yourself from 'the mess' can be hard - but I wouldn't have it any other way. Numbness - out the window! Crying, laughing, being sad , being happy - that's what life is SUPPOSED to be about.
But I don't think we should be too hard on ourselves and call messes 'our messes'. They are at least as much Rawat's messes.
There's a lot of lovely, very intelligent people here - and we all got caught up in a fucking cult!
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:37:30 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: 'Mouldy maybe and warped for sure' (Sandy, 2001)
Message:
Perhaps such a character analysis from SHP counts as a rave review. It does in my book, anyway.

Perhaps I'm biased, but - hmm - cool post, well said, indeed... x

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:28:36 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Mouldy maybe and warped for sure' (Sandy, 2001)
Message:
I have had issues of my will power and the lower than usual energy level in it lately, too. This has come up recently, about the same time I started questioning the validity of Maharaji's personal actions and treatment of some premies as documented here. I never attributed my will power slump to him or blamed him for it, but I definitely see a correlation where my attention and energy were (are) split between two oppposite poles coinciding and the lower energy.

I can never go back to seeing him and the whole thing exactly like I saw it before. The door swings one way in that respect. Once you know someting, you know it. Next step is what to do with the information keeping the most open mind possible. (And I am just so sick of thinking something negative every time I hear or use the word 'mind'...even my syntax has been altered due to the shunning of some words and attributing negative meanings to things that are not necessarily negative....having nothing to do with Webster's or Oxford's definitions....maybe that's where I picked up that habit.

Sandy

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:43:31 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sir Dave said: ''It's all 180 degrees wrong. ''
Message:
In order to appreciate the mixture of satsang and brainfarts that constitutes Rev Rawat's sermons I had to ignore my mind, my own intellect, understanding and wisdom. To allow myself to feel the contact high I got from him I had to ''surrender'' all my own thoughts. It is taking me a long time to just think straight and be simple and honest and straightforward without any complicated ''spiritual'' contradictions and imaginary stuff.

The best thing I can do now is to allow myself to be exactly the way I always wanted without any religious guilt or fears and superstitions; trust my own instincts and feel whatever joy or strength or self-confidence I want.

Maybe I will call him Urug U-turn.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:38:36 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: First we have to get our horse tied up and not let
Message:
them run wild (circa late 1970's?) and now his mission is to let our horses run free....mixed matphors or mixed messages?

'In order to appreciate the mixture of satsang and brainfarts that constitutes Rev Rawat's sermons I had to ignore my mind, my own intellect, understanding and wisdom. To allow myself to feel the contact high I got from him I had to ''surrender'' all my own thoughts. It is taking me a long time to just think straight and be simple and honest and straightforward without any complicated ''spiritual'' contradictions and imaginary stuff.
The best thing I can do now is to allow myself to be.' PatC

Dear Pat,
Sounds like what both some premies and ex-premies are trying to do. Your post sounds like the horsey satsang he gave about letting the horses run free, taking off the harnesses and bridles. Funny about that, though. He used to talk about not letting your horses (minds) run wild, now he's saying let your horses (premies spirits?) run wild....just thought of that. Hmmmmmm

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:53:34 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Nigel and Moldy
Subject: Erosion of Self-Esteem and Will
Message:
Nice post, Moldy. I agree that years with the urug (love that term, PatC) work on eroding your self-esteem and sense of self-worth. It took me TEN years of down-time after getting out of the cult to finally start to feel like myself again and have a sense of self and direction (roughly the same amount of time I spent in the cult).

I was having a long conversation last night with a close friend who was in the SF area ashram at the same time as I was. She lurks here but hasn't posted (HI!) She told me she recently had a telephone call with the psychologist Margaret Singer of Berkeley (author of one of the anti-cult books recommended here, I'm too lazy to pop over to that part of the site and find out which one), who is now in her 80s, and Singer told her that DLM's meditation techniques make one spaced out and lose direction, which is what keeps premies in the cult. That was definitely my experience. It's taken an awfully long time to find my center again from the whole involvement, and I really can't stand feeling spaced out now in any way, I want to be in full possession of my faculties from here on out (not easy when you have chronic fatigue syndrome!)

Anyhow, thanks for the post and insights, Moldy.
Love,
Joy

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 03:02:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joy/Moldy/Selene
Subject: Joy/Moldy/Selene
Message:
That's the second time I have seen a reference to Margaret Singer's book here in the past month, and that is VERY interesting what Singer said about the meditation making people spaced out and lose direction. That *is* exactly what happens. 'satsang, service and meditation' are so seductive that way!! I remember reading in the book 'Reviving Ophelia', that cults are very seductive to those in the throes of adolesence. It's so damn hard going through the pain of forming an identity and so tempting to chuck it all and join a cult that has all the answers.

But I sort of miss having a simple path to follow too, something very basic to go back to. It sucks alot of the time being an adult and having to process through the big questions: what do I really want to be doing with my life? Have I achieved what I set out to achieve? Am I doing the right thing by my kid? Did I make a complete jerk out of myself at the PTA meeting tonight? Do I say 'fuck' too much?

It was so much simpler to just go into the zone. Where the only important goal was to be blissed . Lest I wax too nostalgic, I remember all the GUILT that I was never a good enough premie. Hmmm,,,, I am seeing a pattern here. I was a neurotic premie and now I am a neurotic ex-premie--ha ha!

I think my self-esteem and will were low already when I got into the cult. I was ripe for the pickin'. It wasn't like I had to heal from the cult and was once again, the woman with the strong ego. No, my ego was never all that strong. So I kinda feel like I had to build from scratch. At least I knew what I didn't want, that's for sure. I think that was the process for a lot of us, that in knowing what didn't work, we could begin to find what does work, and had to build up an identity.

It wasn't just the cult that screwed me up. I made a lot of bad choices, and I feel like I am the one who has to put the pieces together. It's on me. It is a bit overwhelming at times. So Selene, I understand why you sobbed today! SOme days are like that.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 03:26:02 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: it's on me
Message:
Definitely know what you mean. There's lots of factors that have made us who we are now. M doesn't DESERVE all the credit (or blame) IMO. But I do believe he/the cult/the thinking processes and rationalizations slowed down the the timing for when I began healing.
And for me, that's THE MOST important thing about all this: I know how bad it WAS because of how much healing has recently happened for me!! This is the real point and the yardstick I can use.
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 20:57:40 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: it's on me
Message:
Yeah, like I always say, I was already screwed up so I needed M like a hole in the head!
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:53:37 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen , you can never say 'fuck' too much nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 00:43:37 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Erosion of Self-Esteem and Will
Message:
I know exactly what you mean about finding your center (or 'centre' as us on this side of pond call it).
I remember meeting an old friend 10 or so years ago, who told me about a woman he knew who had recently got K. What he said to me then has always stuck with me: 'She used to be a strong woman, but she has a big hole in her.
Such implications are pretty horrendous.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 00:55:54 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: The big hole, gaping void...
Message:
God, know what you mean, Moldy. It's like the shelf of you life that you keep trying to put up, but the plaster's crumbly and the fucking rawlplug keeps coming out, but you know your life needs a shelf on the wall just to get the kids to school in the morning but the guju keeps saying surrender all drill bits to me and trust the Grace to do the DIY. Ot something ;)
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:18:44 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: moldy
Subject: The big hole, gaping void...
Message:
hi..your list above is close to mine...and some of the other's also...my chevy impala 2 door coup, 4 barrel and more. and i completely agree with your drift...one thing that strikes me is the language of...what 'it did to me' what 'he did to me' yes but there is also the element of us putting ourselves into the situation. i feel strongly that we have to know and own that part,our part in the pattern to be able to avoid it again.
but ya, what a mind fuck it all was and will weakening daily.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 03:12:20 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: The hole where brains used to be!.
Message:
I agree with you donner. The horrible thing, though, is that even strong people get sucked into cults. The problem with the brainwashing process, or the process of surrendering one's will, is that it happens very subtly, and there comes a point when one really doesn't have a will. One wakes up with a hole in their soul and they don't realize it, they have been so thoroughly brainwashed. I mean, how embarrassing...! Everyone else can see it, see that your strength has been captured, but the one with the hole goes on saying, 'everything's wonderful.'

But I agree with you that we have to own up to our own part in the process. I WANTED to give up on the hard work of living, I wanted the bliss. I got bliss and a whole lot more that I didn't bargain for. But I also was just a baby with no clue what I was walking into. But, you live and learn, you know what you know when you know it.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:50:13 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: The hole where brains used to be!.
Message:
ya, i think our age at the time had lots to do with our vulnerbility to the cult...and hindsight is usually 20-20. as my partner points out often, my current sight is not always great still.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 13:28:49 (GMT)
From: Katie H.
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: And wanting to feel like a 'good' person
Message:
Hey Helen,
I know that I desperately wanted to feel like I was 'good'. And for me, because of the way I grew up, feeling like a good person meant giving up everything, never thinking about myself, trying to serve others all the time, and being totally unselfish (or trying to be - snicker). That's what I thought at the time, anyway :(.

I don't really get it when some of the premies who post here say that they 'enjoy' knowledge and that's why they practice it. For me it wasn't about 'enjoyment' at all - it was about trying to surrender and be nothing, so I could finally be OK.

Love to you,
Katie

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 21:11:57 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie H.
Subject: sneaking some 'Mind' on the side
Message:
Hey, being a self-sacrificing type person, as you and I tend to be, is not the type to enjoy an all or nothing trip like knowledge! We can never be good enough!

The people who enjoy knowledge, honestly, are not giving 100% to Maharaji. They are sneaking some 'Mind' on the side!

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 21:59:21 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Helen and Katie H.
Subject: sneaking some 'Mind' on the side
Message:
So right you are. There are parallels to this and my friends that can still be diehard Tibetan Buddhists, right in there, working through the local and regional centers, promoting the activities, etc. I say what about all that guru yoga, what about all those elaborate hells and the reasons you go to them.

They'll basically say they don't believe all that stuff, and they have their own version of it that they do believe. And they have respect for all the teachers. Then I'll ask them how they can support centers where Lamas and Rinpoches come and teach people that stuff. For which, of course, they have no answer, otherwise they'd be less involved.

There's folks like us, and there's folks that can look the other way. I'd rather back off, get out of organized religions and cults. Some folks just won't smell the coffee and realize that most religions and cults are all or nothing, once you are in the inner circle or are really engaged.

Love, f

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:42:13 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: sneaking some 'Mind' on the side
Message:
Yeah, the more mentally healthy ones are the ones who are practicing some kind of denial. They aren't really surrendering everything deep down inside.

It's amazing. I went to a non-fundy church for awhile and was talking to the membership director about my problems with Christian theology. She said, 'Oh, I don't believe any of that stuff either, I just come here for the people!' I just about fell off my chair. And she was a very happy person. I liked that church alot and I wish I could have that kind of attitude, but I couldn't.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:20:34 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: You and me both
Message:
It seems like we could get better places to go for the people, huh, if nice people quit going to places like that. In fact, they might start some better places if they quit hanging out there.

Wit cha all the way on that one. So many people are involved for 'the people' and don't give a rat's ass about a lot of it. I just can't get 'behind' things I don't believe in. Whenever I lose my confidence in something like that, I'm outta there.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:07:41 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: You and me both
Message:
Well, I still think a lot of people get something good out of religion even if they don't swallow all their religion's theology lock, stock and barrel. I am not anti-churches or anti-religion at all. I think alot of people are able to make peace with what they can embrace and what they cannot, and can still live with their religions.

I know that I take things very seriously. If I make a commitment to join a church, it would be because I embrace the theology. I'm a weird case because I wan't raised Christian per se, so it's doubly hard for me to go to a Christian church. But most people in the US are Christians and most they make peace with their own vision of Christ. As long as they don't hurt anyone or themselves, or try to make laws that affect me, or try to convert me, It doesn't bother me. When people take on super fanatic, fundamentalist attitudes, that DOES bother me. That missionary whose plane was shot down over Peru, whose wife and son were shot and killed, believes that that bullet came from God (because he and the pilot survived, which makes it some kind of a miracle to him. He thinks God chose his son and wife for a reason). Now, I think THAT is psychotic. He is celebrating their deaths because he believes God made it happen. He seems like a sick puppy to me.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:30:14 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Oh, there's a lot of good, I agree
Message:
There's a lot of good in some religions, if you can keep your distance from it, and personalize it in a way that isn't like the sick example above. (Not run to them like a moth to a flame, like I've done.)

What I can't understand is people that are the pillars of religious organizations that don't believe half of it. I know it's just because they see the ethics of it differently than I do, but there's also a level of denial that lets them get that close, and squint when they see the contradictions. The less dogmatic the reglion or group, the less the problem, of course.

Love, f

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:06:37 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: squinting vs. trying to change
Message:
Right, I agree with you wholeheartedly. When I went to Catholic University for graduate school there was this big controversy in the religion department. Silly me, I didn't realize that CU was *The* Catholic University of America and was supposed to be a spokespiece for the Vatican. I just knew I was already teaching there so I could get free tuition! There was this guy, a priest in the religion dept. who went against church doctrine and said something like 'birth control is ok.' He got in big doo doo.

Here I was taking education and English courses where professors talked about books like Lolita and by D. H. Lawrence, all with major sexual themes, but I guess those departments weren't subject to the same sort of scrutiny.

I think there are alot of Catholics who disagree with the church's stance on alot of things but love their church community. I think some of them are outspoken about the things they disagree with too, and are trying to change things, which I think is good. I agree with you that squinting or pretending not to see the contradictions, is a form of denial. Better to face what you don't agree with, and be honest about it, denial in the most extreme form makes people split off from themselves.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 04:15:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Being able to speak your mind ...
Message:
... that's an excellent way to change things from within, still keep your own integrity, and join in for the good things that can be found in a spiritual community. Good point. I've enjoyed this disussion a lot, and I thank Moldy for starting it.

There is a bit of dysfunction at Catholic Universities, at least one in SF that know about, USF. When I lived in SF my roomate worked in the school office and was a DJ at a radio station, KUSF, that broadcast out of USF, run by student at this Jesuit University at the top of a beautiful hill overlooking part of the city. There was a lot of punk after 5 pm (this was about 82-84. I always thought it was great when they played Johnny Rotten singing 'Jesus Christ was a Sex Pistol.' But in the name of creativity and the kind of marketplace of ideas that has to exist in an educational environment, they looked the other way, I guess.

love, F

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:50:09 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Being able to speak your mind ...
Message:
That is too funny--Johnny Rotten singing that song on a Jesus station.

It's funny, but my Catholic friends are pretty loose, not uptight or rigid at all. I think alot of them have a good sense of humor abotu 'Catholic guilt' etc. The intellectual atmosphere at Catholic University did not 'feel' stifling at all. In fact, it's where I had my biggest Drip Drip Drip. The spiritual and religious people there (at CUA) were so much more into bringing their values into service to others, and much less fixated on their 'experience.' In contrast to the sort of 'living faith' my CUA colleagues had, the narcissism of the Maharaji trip seemed so superficial and shallow.

Off to happy hour with one of my Catholic friends, as a matter of fact. We're going to get 'liquored up' and see Brigette Jones--ha ha. 'Liquored up' for me means one glass of wine.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 14:40:59 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What a waste!
Message:
Reading this thread makes me feel so sad. Of course I tried as well rationalizing all the time wasted as being useful in my growth process, and of course there are always some memorable events in so many years.
But how much more could have been learned, how many more projects could have been succesful?
Even now I am way too naive for my age.
This forum also makes it very clear that I am still not very able in expressing emotions to people I know, a lot has to be held back, because it's all too fucking weird for them.
It is not just the years in and around the cult, but also the years of recovery, and the missing out of normalcy.
It is really like in one of those movies where somebody wakes up from a coma in a body 20 years older in a time 20 years later.
From our point of vieuw I hope the theory of karma and reincarnation is true: It gives us more time and it would bring justice to rawat. (ouch! ouch! ouch!)
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:11:13 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: What a waste!
Message:
Bob - you said
'It is really like in one of those movies where somebody wakes up from a coma in a body 20 years older in a time 20 years later.'

Christ (no religious undertones intended) I can relate to that.
In a wierd way, I could wipe out the last 20 or more years of my life with no regrets... someone said (christ I hope it wasn't
some pretentious git) 'to your own self be true'.
Know wot you mean by 'naivety' too - call it 'innocence' though, and it assumes a different character.
if you're sad. we can be sad together, on FV, and feel better together too.
Lots of love, Moldy

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:58:38 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Moldy warp
Subject: You rock Baby! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:50:06 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: On owning our part in the situation
Message:
When you say
'yes but there is also the element of us putting ourselves into the situation. i feel strongly that we have to know and own that part,our part in the pattern to be able to avoid it again.'
I kind of agree with you.
But...
the 'have to' element is like trying to force or impose some state on ourselves..
We've had that done to us (and I do mean TO us) by Rawatland, that I reckon now is the time to be kind to ourselves and just be with what we feel - and if we feel like laying blame lock, stock, and two smoking barrels at the holy hamster's feet then that's probably because it is psychologically healthy for us to do that at that moment.
It's an unravelling process - I guess - just when you think you are unravelled you find a few more tangley bits. But I have a conviction that it's possible to completely rid oneself of Rawatland.... just takes some time, lots of love... oh and plenty of real ale.
Love Moldy (hiccup)
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:15:27 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: On owning our part in the situation
Message:
yes, unravelling process and yes, healthy part of it...and sorry about the have to...it has been helpful for me personally to own my part...but in fact the part of the process began some years after laying all the blame on him. thanks for pointing that out.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:17:35 (GMT)
From: Moldy warp
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: On owning our part in the situation
Message:
hey - Donner - no need to apologise for the 'have to' bit. I only noticed it cos I'm prone to 'have to's' myself... and know the psychological pain they can cause oneself. It's all a wierd mixture of totally blaming Rawat and totally taking responsiblity for one's own position - but perhaps the 2 states go together rather well when you think about it...both involving an act of will and judgement.
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:13:46 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Moldy warp
Subject: On owning our part in the situation
Message:
yes, absolutely...two side of the same coin...can't have one without the other...yes.! and he has got to look at his side and i best look after ours cause i can control mine, , not his.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:38:31 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Thanks...
Message:
Moldy and everyone for your posts, I didn't have much when I moved into the ashram but I had my grandmother's gold watch, I gave it to the ashram to pay rent or something stupid like that.
I too struggle with finding my own identity, the one that was robbed from me, yes I know I somehow chose to be in a cult but that's not all, they knew we were ripe for the picking, they knew of our low self esteem somehow those radars were working for them and we fell in the web, Gosh it takes time and effort to extricate ourselves from it but it works and yes I feel that I have my life back, I am discovering or uncovering my true identity, ME.
So I thank you all for helping me free myself a little bit more each day.
Mercedes
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:37:53 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: I'm not sure 'they' knew/know either
Message:
Dear Mercedes (and I do mean *dear*, even though I've not met you 'in person' yet),

It's a really wierd thing, but in a way we're all 'victims' here -- even the current EV brainwashed, although it is hard to see some of them with compassion because they screw over people like Abi and Susan to cover their Master's arse.

Victims of what? We in this thread were on the receiving end of the same device. But what was the device? I don't think the people wielding the power of the cult device have a clue as to what they are doing. Because they are doing it to themselves, too. Why would anybody sane do a thing like that. Maybe the PAMs got a few nice suits out of it when they were in the ashram, but it certainly wasn't worth the bowing and scraping. Although we are scarred, we are the lucky ones. They, and Rawat, are still caught in the trap of master and devotee, and may be caught for the rest of their lives. That gives me the creepy crawlies. People like our dear friend Phil, still being the shill, believing ... what???

The device is made up of people, laying trips on people, from the top on down. And the guy at the top is so confused that he babbles. Besides being plopped on a throne and told he was god at a tender age, he's a victim of his own greed, and some other strange stuff I probably don't want to psychoanalyze because it's ugly and will get me nowhere.

We are in the process -- we are reclaiming the parts of us that were victims and saying -- 'hey, we don't have to do this anymore.' But the ranting and the blaming is a necessary part of the process. Just like grieving a loss. You can't get over it until you get over it and get through it. And to say one shouldn't cry or blame or point the finger would be wrong too.

So all of you, rave on.

love, f

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:31:38 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Moldy, you are funny, hic, nt
Message:
xox
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 01:05:09 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The big hole, gaping void...
Message:
Know wot you mean too. Shelves very important!
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:04:50 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Woman seeking premie father
Message:
I received a Journeys entry from this woman a while back, and asked her if I could post her appeal on the forum instead. She wrote back today and gave her okay. Her story follows. Anyone wishing to contact her can reach her via email at traceyg_smith@hotmail.com.

I am Tracey Gaynor-Smith. My mother is Daisy; she was a member of Elan Vital in 1979, in Torquay, Devon, England.

I am searching for anybody who was a member at this time in Torquay. Specifically a man called Robert, surname unknown. As far as I know he was an English teacher to foriegn students. Last known whereabouts: America.

If you read this and you knew Daisy you would also know her sister Francis, also known as 'Cha'. Any clue to Robert's whereabouts would be appreciated as I believe that I am his daughter.

Please do not hesitate to Email if you do not know Robert's whereabouts but did know my mum and aunt because their memories are vague.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 20:50:36 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Michael Donner, q re devoteeship
Message:
Donner, you have consistently made the suggestion that premies will remain in the guru/devotee relationship until they stop wanting that kind of relationship.

This does not gel with my own experience, my take on it is somewhat different:

The best understanding I can offer myself is that the guru/devotee relationship makes use of the same energy as sado masochism, I did not understand this as a premie, I had a very different explanation for it, a sorta divine one.

Over the years, as I sat in front of Maharaji, in order to make him right, I would sacrifice myself piece by piece, something I would not have done if I hadn't trusted him, and believed that he spoke the Truth.

I could not leave fast enough once I realised he was not a divine being, the corrupting stench that seeps out from under his golden throne was already freaking me out.

I think that the energy that powers sado masochism is inherent to us all, has to do with the need to be submissive and dominant at different times, is not 'bad' in itself, but when harnessed to the practices of guru/devotee, extraordinarily destructive and harmful to our sense of self, definitely not worth whatever 'juice' you get out of it.

So, Donner, when you insist that I wanted that relationship for 27 years, I ask you to elucidate, either there is something I need to acknowledge or accept about myself, or I can reject what is to me a painful assertion.

Best Regards, Lesley

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 00:28:18 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Sado/Masochism
Message:
Dear Lesley,
While Donner below has a different slant I want to support your hypothesis re:Sado/Masochism.

Masoch - the guy from whom the term Masochism was developed - was talking about pain being involved with love - and the intertwining of pain and love in relationships. Sadism - from de Sade was termed in order to talk about emotionless relationships - or no-relationship relationships where people were seen as objects only.

And there is a power in dominance and submission for many people. i.e Kids dream of being as poerful as their teachers, parents bigger siblings.

I think we kept coming through the pain for the love. So there is definitely a love/pain relationship. And we were also objects for him at times.

And I agree largely with Micheal Donner - different slants on the same subject.

Cheers

Peter Howie

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 05:59:07 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Thanks, Peter
Message:
I didn't know the origins of the term, but it is precisely those elements I meant. On the one hand, the very real yet deadly engine of love conquering pain, on the other, the surreal and puppetlike play of objectivity, not real at all.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:09:38 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Peter Howie and leslie
Subject: Sado/Masochism
Message:
yes peter, we definitely came thru the pain for the love...though for me usually more pain...however much denied at the time and suppressed at the time..then real love. in retrospect, as i have mentioned elsewhere some weeks ago, for me i often thought i had a 'personal' relationship with m due to my proximity to him on an almost daily basis, but really there was no personal relationship at all. M never shared anything about his process, thoughts, doubts, pain, fear etc...never showed any interest in my personal process, life, pain etc...i never shared with him anything personal, was usually in some state of fear around him (denied often but sometimes noticeable to myself but ignored and pushed thruough). Others often referred even here on this forum about my 'personal relationship' with m. what a joke, no funny ha ha, rather funny sad like.

the wholeexperience reinforced a very distorted concept of love really...imaginary love. It took quite a few years to adjust to the possibility of actual love within my marriage/relationship after leaving in 84. That distorted ideal concept hung with me for lots of years and nearly made it impossible to create an intimate relationship.

Such a whole bunch of projection onto the m scene from the hopes of my childhood really...and because the situation was so phoney and one (I) could read almost anything one wanted to into it with m, it was possible to maintain that illusion for a long time in spite of all the signs of illusion of it all.

for me,it took til 84 even 86 to let go of the story i was invested in...i feared for who i was and might be without it in my life.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 01:35:37 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Sado/Masochism
Message:
My experience dovetails pretty exactly with yours in that I am also quite clear that I needed a tangible living master/ guru/ superfather figure when I became involved. For me, it was partly because my self esteem was too low to think I could find truth without a guide, and partly because I was subconsciously trying to fill the void in my childhood relationship with my own parents. Therapy and 12 step have helped me with these issues a lot.

Interestingly, I am now examining the Waldorf/Steiner thread in my life and finding some disturbing elements. As a teacher and a parent, I was very attracted to Waldorf and found Steiner's philosphies stimulating. Though I never became an anthroposophist and certainly not a true believer, I did enroll my kid in Waldorf and take a lot of summer courses in the teaching aspects of it. Now, after 8 years of involvement, I have recently had some experiences that have been very disillusioning. I always thought we'd be a Waldorf family through grade 12, but now as high school draws near for my kid I am convinced Waldorf would be the worst possible choice. There are a lot of true believers among the faculty, and there are ways in which the kids are subtly manipulated by them. Overall, I am not at all sorry we chose it for k-8, but I never thought even three months ago that I'd be looking at the Waldorf system with the suspicious eyes through which I now see it.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:45:52 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Reading and processing on this forum
Message:
will clean out the closets in your life. Certainly did to me. As soon as I pointed at the cult I left, three fingers pointed back to the cults I was still involved in. Which is mostly passively accepting group think rather than that still small voice within.

And your comment about everything you didn't deal with when you went 'to the shelter' coming back after you leave is ringing and ringing for me. Since I have been peeling back the layers of the cult for years, it's been coming back in slow drips, the major ones being when I left the ashram, and then left the local premie community. But seeing the cult in the religion I was practicing at the time I started posting here brought some stuff back from my early 20s, before I came to the 'feet of the master.' Of course you are right and I am older and calmer and can deal with it better now, be at peace with not knowing some things, too.

love, f

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 16:23:31 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Wildflower, you wise grasshopper
Message:
Wildflower:

I used to be around Waldorf education a lot because two of my close friends are Waldorf teachers (one high school, one kindergarten) who moved away from this area. If you ever want to e-mail my high school teacher friend, drop me an e-mail and I'll give you his address. He was trained at Emerson in England and used to be part of the Fair Oaks school (he's now in Sonoma County). He almost left Waldorf teaching, but took a sabbatical and came back.

There is a lot of Steiner cultishness about the school. I had two Zen Buddhist friends that sent both their sons there, and they felt that at least at the Fair Oaks school, there was very little pressure for their sons to become anthroposophists, and it was way better for their particular kids than public school. That being said, we always felt there was something strange and stagnant about following the teachings of a dead master, no matter how brilliant. Steiner had theories about everything that I found rather stifling. But so did many people involved and they tried to push the envelope.

The traditionalists wouldn't go beyond Steiner's theories, so much of it, at least at the time I was around, wasn't modernized. If they haven't changed, I'm sure it's only gotten worse. The anthroposophists had this idea that amplified music was bad (some theory about tone), so although I was one of the muscians who offered to play at their crafts fair (forget what it was called), they frowned on my sound system. Most of them performed in a large area outdoors without microphones and you couldn't hear them. I loved it when the music teacher came up with his jazz band, fully amplified, and blew all their theories away! So there were always people who saw the practical side.

I can't think of the name of it, but many of the core people involved in that school were part of a Christian religion whose name escapes me. The dancing, the painting, how you read poetry aloud, even the self-expression comes out of a certain Steinerian mold. I'm sure that's what you're doing right now -- trying to figure out whether the 'mold' of the 'Dorf culture is worse that the mold of the cuture of the local high school in your town.

The thing I always found funny was the eurythmy. All this scuttling around with their feet, everything beautiful, wonderful arm movement. I always thought they should clone it to that Irish dancing (sorry folks) where all they do is use their feet with their arms stiff at their sides. Now THAT would be wild!

--f

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 04:45:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Wildflower, welcome to the world of
Message:
being allergic to all dogmas, creeds and other religious or spiritual ''lenses'' through which to view the world. Once bitten twice shy as they say. My involvment with Maharajism has left me bored and impatient with any other totalitarian or absolutist dogmas.

Now I like to just keep it simple, have a positive outlook on life and be honest and straightforward. I feel that I will find out whatever I am meant to find out just by keeping an open mind and continuing learning. I don't have to jump at every answer that comes along.

But I am definitely allergic to religion and spiritual stuff especially anything that tells me that I am not sufficient unto myself or that I need some sort of agent, creed or dogma to lead me to god.

I'm glad you're questioning Steinerism and anthroposophy because it is quite mind-bending stuff.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:08:44 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Thanks, Donner
Message:
I really understood that. My marriage is seriously benefitting, not to mention everything else, from clearing that confusing bugger out of our lives!

Thanks for your posts, please tell me if you figure I'm fudging something, re 'crux' post below, best regards, Lesley.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 03:54:05 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Sado/Masochism
Message:
p
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:47:17 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Sado/Masochism - Bondage and Discipline
Message:
Socalled ''love'' in an unequal relationship, a power trip is S&M and often involves B&D even if not actual but emotional. The Passive Bottom surrenders to Active Top. In the leather scene that is play-acted and induces states of heightened awareness, euphoria and bliss which is why that kink is pursued. But, at the end of the game, sane adults kiss and make up as equals. Though I think Lesley is using the term more for dramatic effect, it has a smattering of truth about it. The B&D was the fear, superstition and religious guilt.

Donner said that, eventhough he was physically close to rawat, he felt only an ''imaginary love.''

He continues: ''It took quite a few years to adjust to the possibility of actual love within my marriage/relationship after leaving in 84. That distorted ideal concept hung with me for lots of years and nearly made it impossible to create an intimate relationship.''

I'm only just beginning to see how it distorted all my relationships not only with my partners but with ordinary people in everyday life. I was holding a part of myself back all the time. Also holding myself back from just enjoying life without constantly comparing it with the ''inner truth'' or what
Urug U-Turn would think.

Maybe not S&M but SS&M. (The religious bondage of satsang, service and meditation.)

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 04:27:07 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat C,I know what you mean about holding back....
Message:
It's ironic, isn't it, how we thought we were getting so much out of life with the guru, and now we realize how much we're really getting out of life WITHOUT the guru.

I had lunch with an old friend,an ex for many years now, and he was saying how m and k used to be the antidote for the world, which seemed lifeless.
Now, the world looks great, and life has never looked better and more satisfying, while m and k have become completely lifeless, stultifying and boring.

I've had what we used to call 'satsang' with 2 other exes in my area, while the church ladies prepare knowledge packets.
The exes actually talk about real life experiences and realizations, while the CL's have nothing to talk about.

I really related to what you said about always holding back,...remember the advice to always keep m between 'you and the world'?
Isn't it great to feel completely one with everything inside yourself,to not hold back on anything, and to be free from the spiritual bondage to m?

Life is great, and I wonder if and when m will ever really wake up, drop the game, and free the premies....

Good night.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:12:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: In Moldy's thread above, Francesca said
Message:
The other thing I stopped doing so many times is playing music, being creative, doing art. Because, as you said, I didn't know who I was anymore. What did I have to say that was of any interest to anyone when these great spritual schmoopavatis had the whole schtick down, something that would take me more time than I have left in this life. So I stopped expressing myself, because it was not only useless, it was 'manifestations of my confused mind' or 'impure views.' Oh, oh, oh.

Thanks for shaking that clod of my own stupidity out of my head, Moldy. Is this group therapy or what? The people who tell us to get a life haven't a clue. We not only have gotten our lives, we're reclaiming parts of them we didn't even know we'd given away.

There is more plain truth spoken here in one day than I heard in the whole year I went back in the cult.

Several people have drawn attention to the fact that we also stopped allowing ourselves to be playfully creative because it was unimportant, egotistical or delusional. In the past few months since leaving Urug U-Turn, I have been happier, healthier and more relaxed and playful than I ever was inside of the straight-jacket of conformity to the cult or his sick Hindu philosophy.

No wonder the ELK droppings seem so phoney and pretentious nowadays. Either they're bluffing and trying hard to convince themselves or they really are shallow and insipid people because the ELK contributors sure sound like robots. But I don't think that they really are superficial people. They are simply stunted by cult brainwashing.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:58:20 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: To Michael Donner, q re devoteeship
Message:
hi, i'll try a bit here and maybe more later as time allows.

you just said yourself that you would give a piece of yourself away to him bit by bit...and hedged a bit by offering that 'when you trusted him...believed him' and then you found out later that he was not telling the truth.

one of my questions would be...was he telling the truth when you thought he was...or did you think he was when he was not? if the later is true, then what was in you that made the difference. it had to be in you because he was never telling the truth.

and giving yourself away peice by peice is exactly the same to me as giving your power to him...giving your power away. why do we give our power away to someone else? yes, of course we use the excuse...and believe me when i say that this is my story too...we used the excuse that he was divine...so therefore we were justified. then when we find out that he was never divine, what then happens to that justification?

for me, when i examine my biography, my family upbringing lock stock and barrel i was a perfect candidate for his lies and i fell for him/it...the story/lie full on. because in my was a devotee wanting to be attached to a saviour...a disciple wanting a lord, a peaceworking wanting a world wide peace movement.

i don't think the analogy of sado/masi is relevent nor necessary. just look at the very personal story of who you were then...how you have changed and why you no longer want to give yourself away peice by peice...or perhaps...as with me...how that is still in me but less and less. analogies can be a distraction for the personal story line we are living...and each different ones just as we all saw and found for some time...something different, even slightly in that particular guru. (fake guru)....as apposed to some other faker.

more later...but what do you think so far?

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:17:26 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: To: donner....Wonderful post...
Message:
Hi Donner,

Everything you said in your post is spot on, as the Brits would say. I know this thread is slipping into inactive, but I think that your reflections and analysis are very clear and help me very much. Please keep on posting!

Devotion to m for me was absolute. Even if my mind told me in the background (which I would dissociate away) that he was lying, the devotee in me ignored it.

When I examine my life prior to the cult, I was primed and ready for devotion; I was craving someone to love. On the surface, becoming a devotee of m was quite safe--no real personal contact until later on--and it was the personal contact that started my doubts (which I also ignored for a long time). By becoming a devotee, especially in the ashram, I believed in the facade/con that m loved me unconditionally, and I, in turn tried to do the same. This is so individual, even though we all went through similar dynamics with him.

The betrayal of the trust was quite devastating to me because I really loved m so much. I am so glad I was never x-rated because I never would have had the emotional strength to cover for him for very long, and I'm sure eventually the stress of his erratic personality and behaviors would have stressed me out beyond my ability to cope. Which is what happend to me a DECA, but that's a whole different topic.

Thanks again, donner, your observations show me that you've done a lot of soul-searching and self-examination on this.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 05:52:34 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: The crux, to me
Message:
is what kept me there giving my faith in myself away, what made me offer my love to him.

I can see quite clearly that my background set me up for it, led me to accept a saviour, gave me the 'receptors' if you will, even an acceptance of that type of relationship;

but what did I want? what was I actually pursuing? or had my trust in Maharaji blinded me?

I believed Maharaji spoke the Truth, with a capital T, it was up to me to understand Him.

When I realised he was not, largely thanks to this site and just the personal need to understand, I was able to pull the whole thing apart, to the childhood roots, relatively quickly and easily.

So what did I really want, when I sat on the ashram floor, in front of Mahatma Adharanand, all those years ago?

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 06:23:03 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Donner
Subject: PS
Message:
Just reread your post, what do I think so far?, some really great stuff, donner, definitely something I can work with, wonderful, these sort of conversations end up having a permanent effect, imo, in this case, I sense a gentleness released.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:27:41 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: PS
Message:
such a good question for us all to think about...what did we really want back then...likely there is still a real kernel there that still wants something...something wonderful...maybe world peace or a life of service with others doing the same wonderful things we are together this time as equals enjoying the challenges and struggles, joys and pains together as equals mutual respect...perhaps we assumed that those we the elements of the m/dlm story we were joining back then...only to find out not! at least these are elements for me. i look at my impluse back then and see a good person searching and hoping, willing to struggle and work hard for good stuff...the misguided parts, the sabatoge of that great impulse from within myself from the old catholic trip i still carried...in retrospect...it was a great clearing process for me ...clearing me of many of those old patterns and accumulated illusions. wish it didn't take so long 72-84/6 but that was how long it took...even after with the unravelling process...but what else is life mostly about anyways..living and learning, growing and giving.
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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 21:21:58 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Yes - looking at who we were
Message:
Michael - it is very helpful for me to look at who I was then and what drew me to M/DLM. The guru used to suggest if you were doubting K, just look at why you received K in the first place. His idea was to restart the cycle of involvement with him but it works to take one step further back to rediscover who I was BEFORE I heard of M & K. Of that 'Richard', I am positive there remains a core of potentiality.

The mythologist Michel Meade and the archetyple psychologist James Hillman talk about a 'thread of genius' that runs through each of our lives. It is that thread that offers meaning to life and it is that genius that is our true gift to humanity. In our case, M coopted those 'threads of genius' and wove a tacky rug for himself. But, the threads remain to be picked up again. Here's a website I did for Michael Meade's organization. Mosaic

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:40:15 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Sabotage of the great impulse
Message:
So now I am a middle aged woman, and like many I wake in the early hours and think through stuff.

My 'great impulse' is really such a little simple one: fulfil my artistic craving. I just read that interesting article on religion and the brain in newsweek, (I rather fit the 'prone to transcendant experiences' profile), it really confirmed something for me:

When i was going through the 'Truman Show Effect' of leaving the cult, I remember standing in the studio and thinking, okay so am I viable, the answer I gave myself was yes, as long as I can do it my way, and my way is with my fingers deep in clay, I can trace this back as early as 4 or 5 years old.

I was thwarted as a child, and then sidelined as a premie, my strength subverted to following another. I cannot detect anything in me that actually wanted this.

I am still chewing over the original question of this thread. You said the explanation that he was divine was our excuse, our justification, but that implies that I wanted it regardless, yet my own actions do not bear this out, I left as soon as I realised he wasn't divine. I feel more like a warrior who was told to forge a way forward, but then got kneecapped and my weapons taken away; if I had known I had to compete, if I had known I would have to fight others, in order to have my way, if I had not been told how wonderful everybody was, if there hadn't just been a world war, if I had not been set up to fall for the first fucking messiah that came my way, I might have had the necessary to see through Maharaji right from the start, but I didn't, and so I sat there and listened to him, and he misguided me, he dictated the terms, I accepted them, til my stomach was so toxic I couldn't stomach him anymore.

I will add at this point that during the last 30 years, I have not been living in a meditative vacuum all the time, the story I write here has to do with my inner landscape!

What changed in me? you asked, well it is quite plain to see; I picked myself up from the black wall of my despair, and chose survival, I walked back the way I had come, in other words, through necessity, I stopped being a premie, I started putting myself first, and this gave me a platform from which I could say: hey I've been a good premie for 27 years, what are the fruits?

Back to the 'good daddy' business, if I wanted that, (and I'm not certain that I did, actually, isn't that just the same as saying I wanted God, Jesus, and the fairies), why did I hang around so long with such a bad one!?! Best regards, Lesley

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:54:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: donner and Lesley
Subject: Great stuff, donner, Lesley all!======n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:37:18 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Thanks Donner....nt
Message:
sdfhfd
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 15:00:03 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: JM, a few questions about the magazine article...
Message:
JM-I have a few questions about the recent article.

1)do we have someone to translate it yet?
do you know if it would be acceptable to the publishers of the magazine if an english translation was available on this site?
If it its acceptable to them, I can work on getting a translator who I think would do it.

2)a few questions about the prostitution/drug scene in India.
According to the article, can you briefly describe what went on there:
a)did Sampuranand run it? or his family?
b)for how long?
c)could money from there have paid off the settlement in India for the man that m ran over and killed on his bicycle in the 1980's?
d)what exactly did they do? Bring drugs in and out of India? Bring women into prostitution?

I would like to reference this article in a letter I am writing to some community contact people around the country.

Thanks again for all of your work.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 08:00:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Some answers
Message:
1)do we have someone to translate it yet?

Yes. We're already into translating the summary/presentation page for EPO. The magazine staff has their own professional translator, and they insist translating the articles themselves. We'll see what happens. In case they don't manage to translate it, I'll offer your help.

do you know if it would be acceptable to the publishers of the magazine if an english translation was available on this site?
If it its acceptable to them, I can work on getting a translator who I think would do it.

We haven't discussed the details yet. BUT they said they want to have it available on the Internet, whether on their website or on EPO.

2)a few questions about the prostitution/drug scene in India.
According to the article, can you briefly describe what went on there:
a)did Sampuranand run it? or his family?
b)for how long?

They don't want to give more details for the moment.
They talk of Sampuranand only, and his connections in Nepal through EV in Nepal.

c)could money from there have paid off the settlement in India for the man that m ran over and killed on his bicycle in the 1980's?
d)what exactly did they do? Bring drugs in and out of India? Bring women into prostitution?

c)No mention of the money being used for any special purpose.
d) Women into prostitution.

I would like to reference this article in a letter I am writing to some community contact people around the country.

I'm sorry if the story is a bit vague, we're lacking written details, but there are witnesses to backup the story, even in court if this is necessary.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 10:04:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@club-internet.fr
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Translation update
Message:
I've just got a phone call from Combat's editor in chief.

They've received lots of orders from abroad (not from France) for the review, and will welcome any professional help to translate the articles.

And there will be a good article advertising the review in a well known daily newspaper in a few days.

Maybe we should discuss this by email.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 09:25:25 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The value of India to Rawat
Message:
I recognize the details aren't out but I'm thinking that Rawat's K might be the false store front to run a mob/mafia like business in India and possibly other countries that seem to be poor by western standards.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 17:59:11 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Mob?
Message:
Please tell us more!
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:39:50 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Mob?
Message:
just speculation at this point...must wait for more info to be revealed
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 13:01:11 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Site mail: Guilt, Gratitude and Gurus
Message:
Here's a couple of emails. See if you can guess whether they came from premies or not:

To ex-premie org:
all I can say to you lot is that obviously you have no idea what you are doing. If only you could experience what I and many of us grateful premies experience, and the love and gratitude we have for our master you would be filled with guilt. How can you go to this length to bring down something that you know in your heart that is true. What damage has M caused you? Maybe you never experienced anything in the first place. All I can say to you lot is that you are sad nutcases and you should be ashamed of yourselves. Many masters have come and only few have been fortunate enough to recognize them. I thank God and my master for his love, patience and for giving the gift of devotion.

The gift of devotion! That's the gift that keeps on taking.
Then there's this email:

Hi:

My name is ________. I wanted to ask all of you if you really meditated? Did you ever see 1000 suns within you? Were you ever free in the most difficult situation? If you really meditated You would have experienced Knowledge. Knowledge is within not with any organization. You can experience it every where.

Also, Bal Bagwan Ji is not a Satguru. He is a typical guru, a very spiritual man. I spent time with him when he was in New York, soon after the split in the family. He took us all to see 2001. A servant he is to his Guru Maharaji, not to ours. I stayed in the ahram awhile, spent a lot of time with him. Moved in to his ashram awhile, and left when I realized the vibration there was spiritual, but not the vibration of the holy word.

The knowledge is true. What goes on outside is untrue. I am convinced now that Guru Maharaji is a true Perfect Master. When going before hiim don't expect Maharaji to change you external situations, his concern is the Spirit.

Thanks for the great pictures If you can sell me more would appreciate it

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 18:37:30 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Hate to think that these are
Message:
I hate to think that these e-mails represent your 'run of the mill' premie.
Neither one of them sounds as if he/she is in their right mind!
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 18:31:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Little guilt shrine
Message:
Actually nipped that title from the name of a local band (LOL) if they stop gigging maybe I'll revive it.

Here's the great part of the first one:

If only you could experience what I and many of us grateful premies experience, and the love and gratitude we have for our master you would be filled with guilt.

Oh, yeah! Beat me, whip me, make me write bad drecks!

Seriously though, I feel very sorry for the person behind door number 1. She thinks M has some serious messianic guru-juju shit going, and we will all go to hell for slandering him. Read: she will practically go to hell for even reading it. Hope you told her to check out some of that Donner and Dettmers stuff. But again, seriously, people like the person behind door number 1 would get their grits fried if they read that stuff. If they do not face it head on, the denial machine will put them in a state of mental lockjaw, and this I do not wish on anyone. After all, we've all been there, done that, or we wouldn't be here.

I'm sure that among devoted PWKs, there's even some denial-o-babble to cover for the Mike D x 2 revelations. Something along the lines of not understanding a true master in his own time. (Larkin, one of us has to write a song on that one. Boo hoo. Sniff.) Or Donner and Dettmers were sour grapes, or jerks or some other rationalization that doesn't nearly cover that large arse, but will do in a pinch.

--f

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 17:18:32 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Guilt, Gratitude and Gurus
Message:
Thanks for typing those in Brian. In a thread below Bill asks if darshan and arti would be big drips for some at Amaroo. Not for the faithful flock. Anyone who can write letters like that can still sing: ''You are my mother, you are my father...''

My favorite email (sent everyday for 2 months) was: ''Ask for the gift of gratitude.''

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 17:13:16 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Sheesh, the second one could have been
Message:
me 5 years ago!!
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 02:56:27 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Everyone
Subject: The mystery is solved - I am at peace
Message:
Religion and the Brain article on MSNBC.

I'm sure that Jim has read all of the underlying books and discussed here while I wasn't looking, but I'm a Reader's Digest kind of guy and even the length of the simple MSNBC article was getting a little long for me.

But, the article has done much to provide me with the understanding that I need to completely and finally no longer need my Guru Maharaji anymore in the least.

The article discusses how various parts of the brain play a role in creating a 'spiritual' experience. I've had such experiences most of my life (even before drugs) and I even had one or two in the presence of Maharaji and even sometimes, though rarely, while doing the Big 4 secret techniques as taught by Big M.

However, the most significant 'spiritual' experiences I ever had were on my own prior to Maharaji doing a technique that I taught myself. The MSNBC article describes essentially what that technique was exactly - the shifting of focus onto and away from the various parts of the brain. I was pretty good at it and could within minutes be in 'that place', nirvana, satori, samadhi (sp?).

Maharaji's techniques or lack there of just confused me and I rarely ever had any significant experience. And really the teacher is at fault because just look at how the techniques have changed throughout the years. It's like Maharaji and his Mahatmas never even practiced them at all. So much confusion on where or when or whether to focus your attention, how hard to gouge out your eyeballs, how to stuff your thumbs into your ears, whether to think or say 'so hum' or 'so hung', etc. What a bunch of total fucking bullshit from Maharaji and Company.

Oh, wait a second. There was a significant improvement made in the delivery of the techniques in the mid to late 1990s with the actual pictures of Maharaji himself doing the techniques and DVD knowledge. Anybody been to those Knowledge Reviews? Oh, ah, so personal! As the Boss slips behind stage for a smoke.

Of course, the Maharaji crew will say that the 'experiences' discussed in the MSNBC article are not the 'real' experience, the experience that they get from Maharaji and, therefore, I am deluded and still missing 'that' understanding that I never had in the first place while I was a devotee for nearly 25 years.

So, I now see that what I was chasing with Maharaji was a mental masturbation of something that I had already had - something that Maharaji didn't have to give me because I already had it in the first place. And, hey? Isn't that what Maharaji said in the first place? What I don't understand is why did he have to pretend he had something up his sleave and why did he have to take all my money? (Oh, that's right Knowledge was FREE.)

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 13:22:35 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Roger - great post
Message:
Hey Roger -
I know that you've been struggling with this for a long time, and I was really happy to read your post. I think you'll help other people by posting about this.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 23:53:24 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Excellent!
Message:
But, the article has done much to provide me with the understanding that I need to completely and finally no longer need my Guru Maharaji anymore in the least.

I agree with this, Roger. To me, Maharaji was just a means to an end which, actually, didn't work. I got more out of praying to the Virgin Mary than meditating, and I identify much more strongly with the Jewish, Muslim, and Christian mystics than I do with the Hindu, but somehow I got bamboozled into believing Maharaji was the living Christ, and while I never felt comfortable with that concept, I latched onto Maharaji for fear of missing my window of opportunity, just in case he was.

Strange how the mind works and drives you down blind alleys, as was the case with Big M. But for some people, I suppose Maharaji is just the boost they need for all that brain chemistry to kick in and, voila, the 'experience'. Understanding how the brain works and what role it plays in mystical experience does shed a great deal of light on what purpose Maharaji truly plays. He's basically a catalyst for brain chemistry that leads to a mystical experience. But, obviously, he's not for everybody. There are so many other means at peoples' disposal, depending on what suits them, to have an experience just as intense as any premie has ever had. Understanding this does knock Maharaji down a peg, and frees one to explore other avenues that might not otherwise be for fear that Maharaji was the only way. Yeah, right, I'm glad I got over that one. You too, it appears, Rog. Congrats!

But I'm curious about something. I'm not sure I understand what you mean by focusing on different parts of the brain. Could you elaborate on this? Thanks.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 05:49:18 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jerry
Subject: focusing on different parts of the brain?
Message:
well, Jerry, it's kinda like I can describe it, but...

or it's like a Superman comic book

or it's like...

actually, it's kinda like laying down on the ground and playing with the energy in your head and a bit with your body first and shifting it up to the head and moving it around a bit and then there it is - that experience - timeless, bodyless, and all that feeling of oneness

shit, with what I know I should be a guru (money for nothing and chicks for free)

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 16:10:12 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Great post -- I'm still reading
Message:
I downloaded it last night and will pass the link on to several of my family and friends. Some interesting discussions and thoughts are in that. But I'm still reading. My morning train ride is short (I downloaded it -- I read enough on a screen all day).

--f

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 03:11:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Terrific post - the money was for 5th tech
Message:
First four techs were given ''free.'' Only the big donors were taught the tongue in cheek tech.

Interesting what you said about focussing on different parts of the brain. That's exactly how the techs are taught in the traditional yoga way.

I figure that the value I got for money that I donated was to learn that I didn't need an ''executive friend'' named You KNow Who telling me about You Know What.

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:02:37 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mr eDrek (TM)
Subject: Atta boy, Rog, I'm prouda ya(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 20:40:22 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I found some interesting info on Michael Bolton...
Message:
Hi all,

While looking for some information about child abuse, especially adult survivors of child abuse, I searched the site, Prevent Child Abuse America, hoping to find a Colorado chapter (which they apparently don't have). I was just curious about victims assistance programs, etc.

While browsing the site, I clicked on testimonials and discovered that Michael Bolton is the Honorary Chairman of Prevent Child Abuse America. This organization has gained enormous strength and power in their efforts to stop and prevent all child abuse, as well as assist in helping families to become healthy.

Here are the URLs for the two pages where he makes comments:

http://www.preventchildabuse.org/about_us/honorary_chair_msg.html

and

http://www.healthyfamiliesamerica.org/about_hfa/testimonials.html

I knew Michael slightly when he was a premie from the New Haven, Conn. community and I was from the Hartford community.

I wonder if he knows anything about the Jagdeo issue and if anyone here (Bill?) knows him well enough to contact him about it. Michael certainly seems to be on the right page concerning the safety of children and has a foundation which supports many charities.

This is in no way meant to harrass Michael or try to coerce him to help in the matter. It's just that he has a lot of connections and might possibly be willing to help.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 03:15:34 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I found some interesting info on Michael Bolton...
Message:
Cynthia:

Interesting that he was a premie. He always looked familiar and I never could figure out why until I found out that his real name was Michael Bolotin. New Haven was so small in 1968-69 that all the musicians in town at least knew who each other was. I hung out in the street a lot in 68-69 when I was bored and a lot of other young people at least made appearances at the few places there were to hang out downtown. I vaguely remember a skinny kid named Michael Bolotin but I never really knew him.

It's nice to read the stories of his kindness below. I hear he now lives in my hometown in Connecticut (that may be old news by now, but I think my mom said he still lives there).

Unfortunately I don't know him so I can't help, but I will check out the websites. The only contact I would have with him is a cousin who is a restaranteur in CT (owns several restaurants) and hangs out with MB. But I haven't seen my cousin in over 30 years; anytime he's supposed to be at his mother's house for a holiday he hasn't shown. So my chances of getting through to Bolton through him would be slim to none.

--f

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 22:03:23 (GMT)
From: curious
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Michael Bolton the singer?. NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 02:43:18 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Did he have his mullet when he was a premie (nt)?
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 10:29:28 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: yes he did...
Message:
he was a nice guy. word has it that now that he's a star he's gotten egotistical and only travels with the other celebrities of comparable reknown.
I think he swore off the goo goo right about the time he hit it big. I would be curious to hear from him today. I still have dreams ocasionally with him in them, and he's always stil right there for me.
when i was immensely pregnant and stranded homeless in new haven in the summer of 78, he let me stay with him in his empty apt while his marriage was breaking up.

i hope my dreams are right and the rumors are wrong.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 20:54:52 (GMT)
From: puzzleman
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: yes he did...
Message:
Yeah Mike Bolton,
I knew him when he was just a scrap of a premie - all hair and teeth.
But I won't have a word said against him as he helped me out when I was suffering from some awful rash and had been thrown out of the ashram 'cos the housemother thought I would infect everybody.
After sleeping in the park for two nights I was out looking for some food and hoping to bump into some premies that would put me up when some Hare Krishna guys started to hassle me. When I owned up to being a premie they decided to mug me so I ran like the holy wind. I was not as fit as I could have been ('cos that housemother used to feed us fatty slop every day) and they were getting close ( one of them had a funny sort of bragon thing he was waving violently) but just before they caught me who should I run past but but premie Mike who said Jai Sat Chit Anand and caused the pursuing Hares to slow down and start to pretend they were just out for a stroll.
I like his singing too
old puzzleman
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:00:30 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Michael Bolotin...(origional name)
Message:
Hi Cynthia, would you email him at those organizations?
My email does not work.
Just tell him and also tell him about us and EPO.
He would be interested and also he might really be able to
finish up his lingering memories by reading Dettmers and Donner
and all else.

Dont be shy about emailing him. He is ok.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 19:30:20 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Cool Bill, Thanks I do it! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 19:48:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: identifying with the 'master'/'teacher'/'guru'
Message:
Reply to 'El Santo' - from Richard's thread 'The appeal of M as bad boy' below

This was worth bringing up top, I thought, in reply to your response in Richard's thread:
.
.
.

Nothing original to offer? You sound like Sant-ji hisself! (but I'm not that paranoid to think you are).

as for 'marks and smarts' (ref. your first post on this thread) - I have to ask why you became a premie yourself (didn't you? or am I being very dense in thinking so?) when your impression of premies was that they/we (as was) were 'total assholes'? El Santo? You listening? Or is your disdain for premies (and your moniker) an indication that you identify with the guru-figure?

You - identifying with the guru??? Of course. That's part of the trip. It's getting beyond the limitations of your guru that inspires you towards the reality, isn't it?

I must confess that I take issue with your implication that premies were of only two types, i.e. either total fakers or pretentious pseudo-intellectuals. Hey, what happened to us in the middle? Yeah, us partial fakers and pretentious pseudo-intellectuals? Jeez, - only pretentious? why not add 'precocious' to that as well? (or was that only me?)

So, whoever you are, or want to identify with being, let's get down to some straight communication here:

'Truth is beauty, beauty truth,
that is all ye know on earth,
- all ye need to know'
(Keats)

Should it not then follow that 'truth is in the eye of the beholder'?

I also wonder if it then follows that (as logic would imply) 'untruth is in the eye of the beholder'?

- in other words, (as once voiced by a certain W. Shakespeare) 'nothing is good or ill (evil) save (except) thinkg make it so'?

What am I getting at? To be honest with you, I'm not sure (and forgive my 'brainstorming', if it needs forgiving).

But, to be fair, I'm also not sure what you're getting at. That the 'left-hand path' followers were the ones Maharaji truly was targetting?

I wonder? How much of what is projected on the 'guru/master/god'-figure is a reflection of our own wishes/hopes/desires? And how much of the true character of the guru/teacher/god gets annihilated in the process?

Over.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:26:48 (GMT)
From: Bob (Reposted by FA)
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Inspiring Story
Message:
[Reposted by Forum Admin as the original post was either corrupt or more likely had inadmissable HTML]

I tried to embed a link, well it did not work. Try Dobson or John Dobson on your search engine. He was a guy living in an ashram for 25 years, secretly buiding telescopes in the basement. He got thrown out and since then built big portable telescopes, which he put on sidewalks so people could see for themselves the grandeur of the sky at night. He is in his 80s now, and still gives workshops how to build telescopes to amateurs.
I built a small one myself (4 1/4 inch) and it is great to go out and observe!

Bob

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 19:06:09 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Bob (Reposted by FA)
Subject: you mean *this* John Dobson?
Message:
http://www.quanta-gaia.org/dobson/index.html#Dobson

click here

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 22:54:07 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I dont believe his thinking would survive forum
Message:
analysis.

All his ideas are based on trying to prove a couple lines of
hindu cosmology spoken by his hero's.

If we don't see the Absolute as what it is, we'll see it as something else. If we don't see it as changeless, infinite, and undivided, we'll see it as changing, finite, and divided, since in this case there is no other else. There is no other way to mistake the changeless except as changing. So we see a Universe which is changing all the time, made of minuscule particles, and divided into atoms.

But because of the revealing power, the changelessness, the infinitude, and the undividedness show through. The changeless shows through in us as our yearning for peace and security and it shows in what we see as matter as its mass or inertia. The infinite shows in us as our yearning for freedom, and it shows in what we see as matter as the electrical charge on the minuscule particles. And the undivided shows in us as love, and it shows in what we see as matter as gravity and the attraction between opposites like positive and negative electrical charges. The Universe is 'wound up' against gravity only because the undividedness shows through. And it is 'wound up' against electricity only because the infinitude shows through. Gravity, electricity, and inertia are simply the nature of the underlying existence showing through, just as the length and diameter of the rope show through in the snake for which it has been mistaken. What we see as energy is simply the underlying existence showing through. Everything that happens, happens because of that.
Our problem is to reach the goal. To see beyond the screen. You remember that Swami Vivekananda said that the Universe is the Absolute seen through the screen of time, space, and causation. It's no use asking how the Absolute became the Universe. The Absolute has not become the Universe any more than the rope has become a snake. Our problem is to see it straight. And you remember that Sri Ramakrishna said that maya is nothing but the egotism of the embodied soul. And that is genetic. The prime directives of the genetic programming are to direct a stream of negative entropy upon ourselves and to pass on the genetic line. That is why we feel ourselves to be the doers of action and the enjoyers of its fruits. It is just a genetic mirage. The genes have us persuaded that by following their dictates we'll reach the peace of the changeless, the freedom of the infinite, and the bliss of the undivided. They don't have it to give. We don't get the undivided; we get a family. You must have noticed.

Our problem is to reach the goal, and not be hoodwinked by the genes. But this is not a journey from one place to another in an actual world. It is a journey from one point of view to another. That is why it is often referred to as an 'inner journey'. It is a journey from an erroneous point of view, dictated by the genes, to a point of view from which we can see through the genetic mirage.

Counter-cheating the Genes
It is important to remember that our problem is genetic. As James Burke says, 'If you don't know how you got somewhere, you don't know where you are.' And as I say, 'If you don't know where you are, how will you know where to go?' In order to 'counter-cheat' the genes, we need to know how they have cheated us.

In an apparitional Universe, seen in time and space, there are only three drives to catch hold of -- the drive for the changeless which we see in matter as inertia, and in ourselves as our yearning for peace and security; the drive for the infinite which we see in matter as electricity, and in ourselves as our yearning for freedom; and the drive for the undivided which we see in matter as gravity, and in ourselves as our yearning for love and bliss. There are no other drives for the genes to catch hold of; so they have caught hold of these three and persuade us to run after them in ways that get their genetic necessities fulfilled, in ways that fulfill their prime directives. But the fulfillment of a genetic necessity does not confer on the organism the fulfillment of the yearning that drives it. The yearnings have been borrowed by the genes. But the genes have left some loopholes which we built in at the beach long ago.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:55:00 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: You had me seriously worried there, Bill
Message:
I didn't realise your post (apart from the first three lines) was a direct quote from Mr D!

I was wondering how to break the bad news to you, but I guess it's not so bad after all.

Try reading his diatribe in an Alan Partridge accent (aha!) and then try admitting that the after-effects of swallowing the Maha's indoctrination don't leave his followers looking like absolute (sorry, 'Absolute') idiots.

Such unmitigated, pseudo-scientific, pseudo-philosophic (love of wisdom?) TRIPE I've not heard in a long time.
This guy sounds well and truly stuck in a world-view that pretends to be profound, but is so full of illogic, contradiction and sheer mistaken use of the English language that I'm just thankful I don't have to bother analysing it for anyone else. The non-sequiturs were hard enough to stomach without having them repeat on me.

But thanks for the precis!

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:44:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ... but I'm sure his 'Dobsonian mount' is the biz
Message:
However, if it's philosophy you want, I think the following quotes are worth more than any amount of his regurgitations of Ramakrishna and Vivekananda.
.
.
.
the quotes start here (and there's a few good'uns amongst them):

It is impossible to travel faster than light, and certainly not desirable, as one's hat keeps blowing off.
Woody Allen, Side Effects

When a man sits with a pretty girl for an hour, it seems like a minute. But let him sit on a hot stove for a minute
and it's longer than any hour. That's relativity.
Albert Einstein

Space ... is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mindbogglingly big it is. I mean, you may
think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space.
Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Space isn't remote at all. It's only an hour's drive away if your car could go straight upwards.
Sir Fred Hoyle, Observer (London, 9 Sept. 1979)

We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Personally, I don't think there's intelligent life on other planets. Why should other planets be any different from
this one?
Bob Monkhouse

The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it)
but 'That's funny...'
Isaac Asimov

Cows in Space. The herd shot around the world.
Anonymous

His ignorance is encyclopedic.
Abba Eban

The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than the question of whether a submarine
can swim.
E. W. Dijkstra

You believe in a God who plays dice, I in complete law and order.
Albert Einstein in a letter to Max Born

If God played dice, He'd win.
Ian Stewart, Does God Play Dice?

Not only is God playing dice with the universe, He's using loaded dice.
Joseph Ford

Now, my own suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can
suppose ... I suspect that there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of, or can be dreamed
of, in any philosophy.
J.B.S Haldane, Possible Worlds and Other Essays

... if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I give you no hope; there is nothing
for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation.
Arthur Eddington, The Nature of the Physical World

No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.
Albert Einstein

Science must begin with myths, and with the criticism of myths.
Karl Popper

To demand 'sense' is the hallmark of nonsense. Nature does not make sense. Nothing makes sense.
Walter Alexander Raleigh

Nature does nothing without purpose or uselessly.
Aristotle, Politics

Truth may be stranger than fiction, but fiction is truer.
Frederic Raphael

In science the credit goes to the man who convinces the world, not to the man to whom the idea first occurs.
Francis Darwin

The universe is not hostile, nor yet is it friendly. It is simply indifferent.
John Hughes Holmes

Life exists in the universe only because the carbon atom possesses certain exceptional properties.
James Jeans, The Mysterious Universe

The universe is like a safe to which there is a combination, but the combination is locked up in the safe.
Peter de Vries

Science is an edged tool, with which men play like children, and cut their own fingers.
Arthur Eddington

I am too much of a sceptic to deny the possibility of anything.
Thomas Huxley

The heaventree of stars hung with humid nightblue fruit.
James Joyce, Ulysses

A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather
because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.
Max Planck, A Scientific Autobiography

Science is built up of facts, as a house is built of stones; but an accumulation of facts is no more a science
than a heap of stones is a house.
Henri Poincaré, Science and Hypothesis

Science is for those who learn; poetry for those who know.
Joseph Roux

Science is what you know, philosophy is what you don't know.
Bertrand Russell

All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
Ernest Rutherford

No scientific theory achieves public acceptance until it has been thoroughly discredited.
Douglas Yates

Research is the process of going up alleys to see if they are blind.
Marston Bates

When it is dark enough, you can see the stars.
Charles A. Beard

Basic research is when I'm doing what I don't know what I'm doing.
Wernher von Braun

The essence of science: ask an impertinent question, and you are on the way to a pertinent answer.
Jacob Bronowski, The Ascent of Man

The great tragedy of Science: the slaying of a beautiful hypothesis by an ugly fact.
Thomas Huxley

Humour is just another defence against the universe.
Mel Brooks

Today's brains are yesterday's mashed potatoes.
Richard Feynman

A hen is only an egg's way of making another egg.
Samuel Butler, Life and Habit

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 01:16:04 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: wow, thanks cq, this is great stuff....nt
Message:
scfgsvc
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 11:47:12 (GMT)
From: ULf
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: please translate into danish n.t.
Message:
hhh
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 18:20:37 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: sylviecyn@yahoo.com
To: ULf
Subject: Hi Ulf, how are you, email me sometime:))) n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 12:02:17 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: ULf
Subject: please translate
Message:
I have not had the time to really check the article. I had an other one and it was just about him leaving his monastery/ashram to do something meaningful in this world. The guy did revolutionize amateur telescope building: Ordinary hobbiists can see Pluto for example while this planet was only discovered in 1930 with the biggest instruments at the time.

That's why I am so glad that I never wrote a book about this stuff. It would be just too embarrasing now. Philosophy , religion , science and making a buck are very different activities and can corrupt each other when mixed.

We've had a very dirty example of this.... (although hahaji never made it to the level of science and philosophy)

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:04:58 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: YEAH, this John Dobson
Message:
Thanks

(I had no clue that he had theories about cosmology, I just know him from the telescope design) Interesting..

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:01:44 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Great site cq , Bob . I 'm a sucker for stuff...
Message:
...like this , but haven't the time to dig it out .

I've printed off a couple of essays as bedtime reading : fingers crossed as to whether he turns out to be a crackerjack .

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 15:31:24 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a post from me
Message:
I wanted everyone to know that I am just trying to take a little break from all of this for a while.

I realized that the timing of my absence could look 'suspicious' as if I had been influenced by the cult. This is not at all where I am at, it was just all feeling very emotional for me and I needed at break.

I agree with LA ex that the developments at Amaroo reflect a pattern with Rawat of reverting to heavy devotion under stress.

What I most want to be clear, to Rawat and EV, is that any conversations I have had with premies have only reinforced my belief I am dealing with cult members. Perhaps, if anything, I find the whole situation more hopeless than before, because I wonder if after a person has spent his or her entire adult life in a cult that person has a soul left to reach out to.

There are a lot of long time premies here that prove otherwise. But I do worry about those left who are kissing feet and singing arti in Amaroo. I find this development sickening.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 06:25:58 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A post from me too!
Message:
I understand completely Susan, I am taking a break right now myself. Just recharging my batteries and getting used to life without the influence of the cult and M for the first time in years.

I am not feeling guilty about not practicing knowledge either, this is a first time experience of no guilt after all of these years. After being conditioned for 29 years to feel as if I had an obligation to be a good devotee this is very liberating.

I am alive and well

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:24:37 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: a post from me
Message:
Hi Susan,
Take care darling.Have a break if you need to,but your absence will be noticed by us all.

Cheers TOny

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:11:50 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: a post from me
Message:
enjoy some time off i have...feels fine and life is full otherwise no doubt. your observations ring true to me about m's reversion to devotion...time and again that is the pattern and his identify that he cannot mess with cause who would he be without it...and he fears going there. and folks will kiss his feet until they no longer need/really want to.
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 15:54:29 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: a post from me
Message:
I wouldn't worry about them. They want to kiss his feet and sing arti to him. After nearly thirty years in the West, Maharaji has finally gathered just 4,500 devotees, hidden away in the back of beyond and afraid to tell the world about what they're doing with their 'master'. Such secrecy speaks for itself.

If you talk to premies too much you get the idea that they're everywhere when in reality, you can count them in the hundreds per country.

This is a closed and private club now. And like all such closed things it will disappear up its own arse. Next year if there's an Amaroo event they'll be maybe 3,500 premies attending and the year after, maybe 2,000. By the year 2005 it may well be in the hundreds and we'll have the spectacle of the Lord of the Universe dancing the two step with full Krishna regalia to an ever diminishing audience of old people.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:09:03 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: a post from me
Message:
spot on as usual sir dave.
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:30:06 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Amaroo 2005? I don't think so.
Message:
One minor correction Sir Dave. I think 2005 will see smallish cocktail parties where perhaps 100 'participants' fork over $10,000 or so to attend. The guest list would be drawn up from the FTRC (front 3 rows club).

Having been involved with a non-profit arts organization, I can tell you that the majority of donors give a tiny amount whereas a very few give the majority of the money. This is universal among fundraising efforts. For every 1,000 donors of say, $25, there is 1 donor of $50,000 or more. So why play to the masses when the big bucks can be gotten from a handful? As for the masses, let them eat satellite darshan cake from Dish Network re-broadcasts - the middle-rung donors are providing that for free now.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:14:12 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: a post from me
Message:
Hi Susan,

Your need for a break is completely understandable. I was pretty sure that m was planning to give toe kissing sessions--that's what he's done before at Amaroo (I've never been there).

I'm sure that the old timers (and probably well programmed newcomers) loved singing Arti to him, just like in the old days. It's the same old cult leader manipulation: kiss my feet, then give me your money and I'll give you bliss. He even performs on stage now. YUCK!

I've noticed over the past few months from reading the EV newsletters that m's bringing the ''ole time devotional'' stuff back and premies are pleased as punch. And they're probably punchy from being around him for so many days.

He has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't care about anyone but himself and what he can get from his devotees. His not-so-subtle jokes about exes and this site were pathetic.

Take care of yourself, Susan
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 03:56:21 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: a post from me
Message:
Hi Susan, I am glad you are taking a brake, we need to process all this stuff and I will miss you.
I can't see how mraji can reconcile being a regular Joe and having people kiss his feet and sing full arti as if he were some god or something it doesn't jive and I don't think pwk's see the contradiction they are drunk with blissful addiction.
Sr. Dave was right on the money.
Enjoy your time away.
Take care...
Mercedes
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 14:52:39 (GMT)
From: jaan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: class action law suit
Message:
Perhaps this has already been discussed. Why hasn't anybody filed a class action lawsuit against 'M' for misrepresenting the truth. Saying he was 'G?D' and then saying he was not. Getting everyone to move into ashrams, surrendering there lives and then disbanding them. It seems there are so many disgruntled premies .... that with a good lawyer who has an axe to grind with 'M' ((Jim Heller ????, in fact I mentioned the idea to him many years ago)) we might be able to get back some of what was given up by all of those who bought the lie .....
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:49:45 (GMT)
From: Mark appleman
Email: apple4256@datastreet.com
To: jaan
Subject: class action law suit
Message:
Hi Jaan,

Really just hitchhiking this thread as it is closer to the top, and all threads are leading to the same place... freedom. Hi , & nice to see you are back in your mystical India ...( Jaan and I know each other )

The class action thing can't work for a lot of reasons, but a central one (and connected to some of what you posted below), is that Truth is subjective in a linear fashion. Maybe if he claimed to elevate someone to a particular measureable frequency, and didn't , there might be some case for or against.

But he IS god incarnate or the true dude to many people, and to them has delivered. In fact, many that you and I have personally spent time with, satsanged with, and partied with.

I personally feel the Truth thing and guru thing are for the EMOTIONAL BODY only. The Bhakti cocktail , one part new paradigm or meditation technique, along with the EMOTIONAL CERTAINTY alignment with the 'new' deal, can put someone's emotional body in bliss.

Its standard Hypnosis 1-2-3 . First, Be an Authority. Next, Have a new Technique, Philosophy, or Secret Thing. Finally, Overload or Overwhelm the critical mind of the thinker with Myths/Satsang Stories/Steps to enlightenment / Industrial dancemusic / sex,drugs,or rock n'roll/you name it.

As the conscious mind overwhelms in front of the Authority,With the New Paradigm, in Overload, the deeper mind gets cartured AND programmed. And the EMOTIONAL BODY FOLLOWS. Congratulations,you've been hypnotised. This is why followers can't get out of the loop, and cling to some narrow defendable thread of their master's ( or church's) life, or seek a new master. The Emoitional body craves the well being of certainty, and its attendant bliss.

And that bliss becomes the 'de facto' truth. Whether it be Amaroo, Steven Gaskin's farm, Shaballa, Mt Shasta, or the sweet Hindu knowledge culture you described below.

And the Bhakti cocktail can carry quite a punch. Though it can be stirred, not shaken. With Bhakti, truth is truly 'whatever turns you on'

Your admirable quest for the true lineage of the techniques addresses one part of the TRUTH that IS measureable - truth ,as a function of HONESTY, or FACT. Yes clearly, maharaji ji's only claim to holiness is that his story, lineage, personal life, mission , and personna - are full of holes indeed!

That I think in the higher and highest function of this site- pointing out the holes in the Big Cheese. To offer people clear factual evidence that things are not- and never were - what they seem.

Readers can pick their poison; from accidental vehicular homicides to multiple mistress abortions, to daily drinking from 1972, dope& sex addiction , clandestine drug and alchohol parties with his specially cleared X-Rated friends. To Phony lineage myths, the weak knowledge (Kriya) techniques ( I addressed that one on my personal Journey a few years back ), Rawat family cover ups regarding Dad,Dad's death,claiming to bring knowledge to the West for the first time ( as he lives up the street from Yogananda's Ashram,who did bring the Knowledge to the West 80 years ago !). A host of highly suspect High Souls,or Mahatma's ; (Vidyanand,Fakiranand, Jagdeo),& a 20 year succession of Western DLM coordinators who split.

This IS the Class Action Suit that has taken place. We, the faceless and voiceless Premie Ji's, have reclaimed our life, voice, personal power, and freedom. We have taken Action.And it is clear that Maharaji has no Class whatever. Summary Judgement.

This has even forced the tail to wag the dog; ie, making Maharaji reframe his tale like some over-wrought Agent Maxwell Smart(from the old TV show 'Get Smart') 'Well, would you believe Teacher,Agent 99 ?' 'OK,Would you believe Master ?' 'How about Friend?' This to me is in response to the multidirectional FACTUAL leakage of TRUTH that occurs here. He changes his Suit transparently, and is in the midst of a 5 year endplay.

I'd like to offer my take on the other Non Factual aspect of Truth in the next post. To follow after dinner.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 06:49:23 (GMT)
From: Jaan
Email: nowbeopen@yahoo.com
To: Mark appleman
Subject: all threads lead to the same place... freedom
Message:
Mark:

Big cosmic hello to you. Nice to hear from you. Yes, we are free and there are no rules to the game. Follow your gut and your will find the 'WAY'. We always have known the 'WAY'. Just follow your inner voice, it knows. And if you have trouble with it's suggestions, then take a step and in the 'doing' your 'path' will reveal it self. At this point it simply becomes a navigational question, a question of 'atitude' .... I always say, here is a Jaan original:

'In order to find out where it is, you find out where it isn't, and when you find out where it isn'y, you find out where it is'

No need to get upset. You make a 'wrong' turn and at some point it becomes evident, you then simply do a u-turn, and go the 'right' way. Perhaps all these years with 'M' led us to a fork where a bunch of us went 'right' and the rest of the 'flock' went left which was 'right' for them and went to another bhakti 'PROGRAM', or for us 'brain washing' session. It really is what you believe, if you believe it's true there is a great support system with cheer leaders to support you and if it doesn't ring true then it's a navigational 'atitude' adjustment,we do not need to feel pain because the so called existing premie world does not agree with you, anyway life goes on and I think the only thing we take with us from all the experience we have lived is 'WISDOM' in the form of 'INTUITION'.

Anyway, enough said. Give my love to all the premies and ex-premies that know me in Malibu and a special big hello to Billy as well. Enjoy the waves ....

Happy trails,

Jaan

ps. Did you Know Julio Liebsch, I am trying to get his phone number, he hung with Bob Seylon, Spudy and a few other carpenter / painter types in Malibu .....

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 16:06:20 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Jaan
Subject: Great Post. Sorry don't know those folks (no text)
Message:
VV
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 04:28:52 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: apple4256@datastreet.com
To: Jann
Subject: To Infinity and Beyond - to Love
Message:
Jann, you referred to some of the following. Others come from media, or other books and teachings.

Connection to the Central Sun. Alignment with the Love Rays.
Merging with the Mystery/aka/Life. Merging with our inner being. Operating from the level called Monadic , or Christ Conscious . Visiting the Temples of Light on the Inner Planes. Becoming our all-knowing WITNESS self. Being Free. Meditating on the Kriyas,or knowledge, without a Guru. Buzz, 'we are going to Infinity and Beyond'. The thrill of Discovery. Knowing the Multi-Dimensional self. Leaving THE MATRIX. Doing true service .

Yes, Jann, sign me up for all of the above. And that which I can't even envision and articulate yet. Let me be in that number.
Absolutely.

It is interesting. On the Bal Bahgwan Ji site there is a short piece about the lady we knew as Mata Ji. And while by no stretch of the imagination was she my confidant friend or aquaintance, I felt very clear and objective that the report of her life was a PR piece, a fluff piece, identifying her with the archtypal Mata Ji type lady Saint, rewriting her history, etc. Definitely to establish the Authority of Bal B as the True Guru.( see Authority reference in previous post ). However, the subjective me already was starting to be very impressed with her list of accomplishments. And this is from me , a pretty out of the woods Masterholic ( no masters since '95 ! ). I realized that the whole Overriding belief system was that you had to have a master to MAKE IT. And I was being marketed by PEOPLE WHO were VERY GOOD at HYPNOTISING ME into giving my power away ( using the old 1,2,3 from the last post). And the rest was merely comparative, competing marketing for WHO was IT.( This is of course not unique to India, as football stadiums are filled on a regular basis with crowds 20 times the current Amaroo troupe numbers, of rocking swaying devotees of Jesus ) This planet is famous for its addiction to Saviors.

Once we believe there is a Mr or Mrs IT, we are in a Fear / Lack induced decision tree of sorts. No win situation. But tell that to the recruiters out there ! ( including of course the Rawat crowd ) Saviors Imprison.

So are we a bunch of shoppers, hopefully making our informed and correct decisions to constantly keep ourself in some version of the list cited above ? Are there some consumer tips and Rookie Errors to avoid Fear based decision making ?

Firstly, I feel we move through the adoption of belief systems ( personal versions of computer 'operating' systems ) . Belief systems that we accept because they hold the promise of getting us somewhere. Somewhere that feels good when we think about it. They are vehicles of sorts. Once we accept a belief System, they (like the memes Jim used to speak about) will promote phenomenon to support themselves. Like Hal the Computer in 2001 and some women I dated, they like to be on top.

However, we have to develop the ability to '86' a belief system if it no longer serves us, or it has fulfilled its function. Get out of the vehicle, or trade it in, so to speak. We have to learn to hitchhike belief systems, and summon updated models. Not unlike Software Upgrades. Windows 2001,2002,etc.

I currently hold the belief that by consciously focusing into
a higher, more inclusive frequency through Intuition, Imagery, & Intention (my current 3 I's { yes, pun intended } belief system ); I can summon more of the states of awareness mentioned above, than thru the old software of Karma, Masters, and Kriya. I also hold the belief that anyone who wants those states of awareness, or desires anything truly, can recieve that from a highly preprogrammed and responsive universe.

And despite being a financial broker as my day job, I don't believe in masters and/or brokers between the self and the Source or Big Love. If anything, my model is closer to a collection of sleeping human angels, or living sparks of Source.

This belief system is giving me the ride of my life and bringing me to levels of awareness, love, and grounding I wouldn't have believed possible. Also attracting very illuminating people and ideas to me . But I also am aware that I might be riding a different wave 2 years, months or days from now,if this belief system no longer serves my bigger self. Also, that what I am doing is particular to me, and that while I believe everyone can experience this, it will come to them from thir own bedrock Intention, Self Love, and Self Allowance of it. Through their own way, with their own particular technology (techniques if needed) that appeal to them , and allow them to accept that they are the equal of any and every historical and mythic figure that has ever come down the pike ( or out of the imagination of any writer). One of a kind,a Custom Model, and an essential cog in the great machinery of Beingness. A Babe of the Universe. And as I hold this awareness as my authentic self, I move to the state beyond Nirvana.

To California. Back in my body, where the divinity that I am chooses to express a life outside the belief systems of aging , karma , and self limitation. And holding the energetics and possibility of freedom,cooperation, and expansion for all - IN THEIR OWN TERMS !

So from our spot out there on the waterfront @ Leo Carrillo Beach, I wish you good surfing,freedom from Neptune's Net, and a stiff board. Choose empowering belief systems that have you at least tied for first place, and that feel good in your gut ( which is your OTHER brain, connected to the Central Sun / your Own Higher Self ). Don't be afraid to monitor the new software and CONSTANTLY UPGRADE. These are the times of Awakening we came for.

And follow the old gut.

To Love.

When we do follow the LOVE belief system, in my experience, we ARE the Master, and the Universe - the capital U Universe - does our Bidding. With the caveat that we stay in Love.

By the way, Jann, Billy sends hers.

Mark

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 19:43:48 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Great posts
Message:
Really kicks ass
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 02:49:16 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: Great posts..nt
Message:
asdgfsd
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 18:59:22 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Yours is a lovely essay in 2 parts Mark
Message:
Eloquently expressed insights such as yours are the reason I continue reading and posting on this forum.

Loved the 'Hi, I'm a masterholic' twist.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 15:59:30 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: jaan
Subject: pigs will fly before you can do that
Message:
been said before.

Hahaji is inocent unless you can prove otherwise.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 10:07:37 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji,protect me from your followers.
Message:
Remember this saying'Jesus protect us from your followers'I think it was a bumper sticker.
I had a phone call today from a premie in Ipswitch.I receiver K with her and her husband 27 years ago and I love them both dearly.Her husband and I were drinking mates long before we ever came to K.He now works full time (payed) at Amaroo.
His wife wanted to know whether I went to the event.I said no and she pondered as to why not.I told her I was now an ex premis.I could hear her rate of breathing change on the other end of the line as she hesitated for a while and then proceded to give me satsang.It was the ususal cliches garnished with her description of how amazing M looked and how he was in such a relaxed mode at the event.Then she brought out the big guns.But M still loves you Tony,he really does.At this point I nearly puked over the phone.
I remained very respectful towards her.She really is a very lovely lady and I could see where she was coming from.I had done the same in the past myself.
There is one big advantage that exes have over premies and that is that we have been premies and now we are exes.We are in territory that they have not been into yet.We are the pioneers.So we have the advantage of seeeing more than premies.Remember that old satsang story of the frog in the little pond,who went to the ocean.Well we have gone to the ocean and premies are still in the pond.
She then said that I would get over it and come back one day.I said no that is not going to happen.
I told her part of the reason for exing was the fact that i felt there was very little integrity surrounding Ev and M.I got more standard satsang for this as well.
I told her about Michael Dettmers and the 7 million dollar yacht,but nothing could break the armour plated cultsuit.
We hung up ater mutually agreeing to disagree.
I think this is going to be happening more and more as time goes on.Remember my wife is a practising premie and local contact.

Cheers Tony

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 10:57:13 (GMT)
From: Sivan
Email: -
To: Tony
Subject: Maharaji,protect me from your followers.
Message:
hi tony,
A friend i got k with, and have had no contact with since 1980, rang me last week. He and his wife still think m is it- but they live fairly isolated with no net. So i shared a few facts and offered to print and post the stuff from this site. They really liked the idea - every leaf makes a forest. Good to just make people aware of information.
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 02:57:17 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: This doesn't give me hope for old premies...
Message:
just reading your post Tony, made me realise that the chances of some of these old-timers getting out are going to be minimal. The cult is their life now.

For my birthday last month, my ex-partner who is a full-on premie, rang and left a message. Part of me wanted to ring back and ask him what he thought of Maharaji, and talk about what a fraud he is, but I kinda knew that it would also be pointless, in that I didn't want to hear a whole bunch of premiespeak in return. He doesn't go on the internet, so it's doubtful that he would know about all the Dettmers revelations etc...

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:02:08 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: why some of those from 70s and 80s have it BAD
Message:
I think we can all relate or we wouldn't be here. It's the web dammit--the interconnected web of us all. My condolences though, on your wife being the local contact and a practicing premie. My husband are I are both former ashramers. He was disinterested and then openly cynical about M sooner than I was, after we moved from a major community to an almost nonexistent one. He had to put up with my mild interest for a while, and several fundraisers I sent money to, but I would not have given him anything that resembled 'satsang' at that point. We essentially left in the mid 80's but still went to a few programs after that. Yet just yesterday I found documentation that I was donating money as late at 1994!

I'm sure my story is similar to many: I have dear friends and family who still say gushing things about M and tell me that M said things like, 'breath is powerful,' as if they are passing on some great, wise revalation. I have friends that were instructors. I have friends I haven't talked to in several years that involved with EV administration. I have friends that are at various levels of getting out or at a certain level of disinvolvement, but are shocked when I say that I believe M is a fraud. They are more along the lines of 'well it was lovely but I moved on.' Then there's a few who are checking out the forum. Interesting.

But I do know why I stayed involved for so long. All around me was reinforcement for the trip I was trying to leave. Probably moving from SF helped accellerate the process. At one point in our involvement with K and M, we left a lot of our old lives behind, and in those communities that were formed in the 70s and 80s, Knowledge and Maharaji was our world. I don't think there has been any duplication of the total environment that was the premie communities of the 70s and 80s. And I believe that's why the programming ran so deep for us; it was an essential part of the fabric of our daily lives, and the people who populated it. It is one thing to go to programs and vids occasionally, or even regularly, and get input from other sources the rest of the time--your coworkers, your friends who aren't into it. It is another to have the trip reinforced by your roommates, ashram mates, and your community. Most of our friends were premies or at least could tolerate our babbling and came to programs with us. And satsang EVERY NIGHT. Holy smokes.

So even when we went to leave, many of us didn't have deep ties to many people in our daily lives besides other premies. And the more years you were 'in,' and the more involved you were, the more entrenched you were as well. YOW.

Keep truckin'

==f

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:15:51 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: good insights and self awareness/truth nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 16:34:49 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: ditto (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 17:12:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: Maharaji loves us - yes and so does Bush.
Message:
I'm sorry, Tony. I read your post with a knot in my stomach because I go through the same thing with my premie friends that I've known for 28 years.

Whenever that old warhorse, ''M still loves you'' gets trotted out my immediate reaction is to become indignant and righteously angry. It is very difficult to let your friends know that you still love them despite thinking that they are blind.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:11:43 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yeah,spot on Patsy,Can I call you that?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:34:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: You can call me anything as long as you
Message:
don't call me COLLECT, or does that joke not work in Oz? I just had an hour phone call with a premie and I am so blissed out from speaking the TRUTH ABOUT MAHAHARAJAJUJU.
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 09:22:48 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yep,That joke works in oz Pat. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 16:06:44 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: But Tony, this is your second chance
Message:
Please say yes. We need a mole:)
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:09:03 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Sorry mate the mole is dead,or is he?
Message:
G,day you ole'bastard,
Yeah EV are watching me.Maybe Aussi Ji still resides amongst you all? Stay tuned.I thought you were going to Amaroo Salam?

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 10:43:47 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: What it's all about
Message:
Some people will always be premies. This part is telling:

'garnished with her description of how amazing M looked and how he was in such a relaxed mode at the event'

It's all just about him. Premies are not premies because of some experience in meditation. They're Maha worshippers and just as Cliff Richard can pull in crowds of older middle-aged women all swooning and wetting their knickers as he comes on stage (I've been to one of his concerts) so Maharaji will be able to pull a crowd with his Maha show, for years to come.

But that's all it is. It's all boiled down to a handful of Maha fans. All the normal people have left now and those who are left will continue to beg him to dunce dunce dunce as they shuffle about with their Zimmer frames and bifocal glasses.

'But M still loves you Tony, he really does' should be translated as, 'but I still am a Maha fan and can't see why you're not one too'

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 23:18:41 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: What it's all about
Message:
straight to the point as always sir dave it has always been about devotion...that is the path he offers...guru and devotee...first and last...until the devotee in us moves on to something original.
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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:20:02 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: One thing I failed to mention
Message:
G'day Dave,
It is interesting to note that when at one point in the phone conversation she said to me..'so what are they saying on the ex premie sites?' For a moment I could see that part of her really was interested in knowing the truth.That did'nt last long as all the standard satsang responses overode it

Cheers Tony.

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 21:04:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Give me Cliff Richard any day
Message:
Is he still singing? Still a born again christian closet case? He can't still be living with his mother unless he's done a Norman Bates.
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 00:44:22 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Still movin' and a groovin'
Message:
and you can see for yourself at The Official Sir Cliff Richard Website.

Read about his fans' dedication on the first page of the site near the bottom. Cliff fans will go to any lengths to get his darshan and at least they do get an acknowledgement from the man.

He admits that the reason why he still looks so young is because he has regular injections of Bottachelli (or something) which takes the wrinkles out of his face. Quite a lot of stars have this done now. He must be in his early sixties, at least.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 08:50:37 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: trapped eternally as a 1958 teenage ducktail.
Message:
No mention of his age on the site. But I think he is ten years my senior, 64. Thanks for the link. Never could stand his music but grudgingly admired him for being such a pro - modest, relaible, sensible and hardworking. He has looked like a teenager for nearly 43 years. Maybe Mick Jagger needs some of those Bottichelli wrinkle-removing shots.
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 14:45:27 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: trapped eternally as a 1958 teenage ducktail.
Message:
You have to look at the year by year history to see his age. He's 60. I had a girlfriend who was crazy about Cliff and she dragged me off to one of his concerts in 1983. The place was full of middle-aged women and young Christian types. But he was an excellent performer and I was very impressed.

He's been at the top of the business for 43 years! Seen all the greats come and go and performed with many of them. It's kind of not cool to like Cliff, of course, but some of his songs are real masterpieces and timeless, like him.

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 17:37:08 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Now... if he had gone to Vegas
Message:
Like his bad boy rival, Elvis...

The American version of the goody-two-shoes teen-idol, Pat Boone, just faded away writing love letters in the sand in Santa Monica.

But that Welshman (It's not unusual...) and Humperdinck still play to the blue-haired gamblers. Now what did I do with my blue rinse?

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:38:31 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Hey I had a blue rinse today...
Message:
Got rid of all that mousy yellow (minerally water here in my little backwoods redneck loggers town.) And a bit of a trim so it now hangs nicely at shoulder length. Not a mullet cut though. (snicker)

But enough about me. Let's talk about Such's big banana. (double snicker with a sheesh on the side)

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Date: Mon, Apr 30, 2001 at 11:10:24 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: What it's all about
Message:
well said Sir Dave,
it is bad with still-premies but it is even worth
with ex-initiators that haven't clearly set themselves apart
from maharaji and the cult.

I had a little email exchange with m.bretscher but that was
very unpleasant for everything I asked was experienced by him
as aggresive and primitive, and he was not taking responsibilty for anything.

Alicia Powers sent me a last email,threatening me with law for
'harrassment'.
Well that was provoking but it never was harrassment.
But in this kind of overreacting you can see how much desaster
m. and his cult are producing inside people like alicia and matthias ,which they never get aware of.

And this proves how important this website here is, to get clarity and to really step out of all that pseudo-spirituality
that was produced by the clut.

Toby

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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 04:22:18 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Tony
Subject: I hear what your are saying...
Message:
... a premi friend called me the other day because she hadn't seen me in a long time and proceeded to tell me all about Portland and the K session in Seattle and how blissed out she was . Now when she quoted M I told her I didn't wanted him in my life ever again, there was silence and all of a sudden not much to talk about.
Premies are in denial or drunk with bahkti ju ju...It is not about an internal experience true, it is about getting addicted to miragey and celebrate all the stupid things he does like playing music, I can't believe people payed all that money to hear the man play it is ridiculous.
Take care
Mercedes
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Date: Tues, May 01, 2001 at 09:26:16 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Thanks Merc nt.
Message:
nt
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