Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, May 12, 2001 at 19:40:58 (GMT)
From: Apr 27, 2001 To: May 10, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


SloeBurn -:- Ending This -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:17:37 (GMT)
__ kev -:- Ending This -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:42:49 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Just thought of one thing that might help -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:20:29 (GMT)
__ Chuck Sprague -:- Ending This... netural topics of interest... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:06:22 (GMT)
__ salam -:- what is more important, -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:55:44 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- tough,but True;the Process may be hard but FREEing -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:16:31 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Truly a *BEST OF* post, thanks for encapsulating -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:11:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Curious -:- A question -:- Mon, May 07, 2001 at 05:46:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- A question -:- Mon, May 07, 2001 at 15:26:33 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- *****BEST OF FORUM***** -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 01:59:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- *****BEST OF FORUM***** I 2nd the motion *BEST OF* -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:33:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Definite*BEST OF FORUM* for this whole thread!(nt) -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 13:57:02 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- [para 7]',now that there is no mental obstacle'(nt -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:58:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Typo corrected per your request NT -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:16:09 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- This is the kind of post that keeps me coming back -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:31:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Oh Brian! ot -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:50:18 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- You excelled yourself with that one . Thanks (nt) -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:48:18 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Excellent post! -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:26:30 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- I made a copy of your post, Such and I will email -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:17:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tony -:- Me too,an excellent summary. nt -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 06:14:56 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Such -- brilliant post, especially the end -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:16:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- dear Francesca... (ot -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 21:58:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- dear such... (ot -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 00:01:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- I feel such compassion for Marolyn and the kids... -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 09:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ Nick -:- tough,but True;the Process may be hard but FREEing -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:31:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks for your post, Nick -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:26:55 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- suchji----------------ot -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:51:37 (GMT)
__ CD -:- enjoy now -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- false vs non-absolute -:- Mon, May 07, 2001 at 00:59:08 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Thanks for being candid, Chris -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:32:11 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- re. M saying 'things of real value' -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 03:58:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- re. M saying 'things of real value' -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:57:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- re. M saying 'things of real value' -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:17:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- No one finds what you claim is inside chris.....nt -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 01:53:16 (GMT)
__ __ GERRY -:- so true, Chris -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:50:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- so true -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Diagnosis sought -:- Chris and sandy, what is the real flaw there?...nt -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:30:56 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- There are no Masters , incarnations of God ... -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:15:36 (GMT)
__ __ SloeBurn -:- There are no Masters , incarnations of God ... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:04:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Great gem there, SloeBurn -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:20:33 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:09:45 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:43:42 (GMT)
__ __ SloeBurn -:- Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:14:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- 4 techniques -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:06:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bob -:- rugu -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 12:08:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- u r -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 21:02:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- u r -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 05:02:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- u r -:- Mon, May 07, 2001 at 20:40:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- u r-------------------------------gggggg -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 12:14:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- u r -:- Tues, May 08, 2001 at 01:44:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Thanks for articulating that so well, Gary -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 17:40:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- u r- AMEN!!! nt -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 11:56:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- u rug ur gu rugurugggg -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 23:50:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Encountering Mr. Rawat. -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 22:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- rugu - he who uses his followers for a RUG n/t -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 18:56:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- I hope you can find support here, Sloeburn -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:44:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- By all means, use us for support! -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:37:01 (GMT)
__ Babs -:- Finding the way out -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:28:17 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Ending This -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:15:08 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Ending This -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:00:15 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Ending This -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:22:15 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Ending This -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:54:50 (GMT)
__ __ Bob -:- Ending This -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:25:02 (GMT)

salam -:- So what is m promise -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 12:14:27 (GMT)
__ bill -:- I remember verbatim.. -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 18:14:25 (GMT)
__ sb -:- He'll take you 'there'. He is MAGIC!!! -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 13:28:58 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Funny you should use the word ''Magic'' -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 18:11:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- The Red Dragon -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 15:29:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Cynthia! -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 12:00:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- salam--Oh I'm an old time cusser from way back!n/t -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:39:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- salam--Oh I'm an old time cusser from way back!n/t -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:01:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Salam! -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:36:26 (GMT)

Sam Hardy -:- God and the Brain -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 04:09:36 (GMT)
__ El Santo -:- God and the Brain -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 19:00:43 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- More mind exploration -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:49:08 (GMT)
__ hamzen -:- Couldn't agree more Monsieur Sam -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:22:38 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- me three, sam and ham! -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 20:06:23 (GMT)
__ such -:- corporal punishment; corporeal form (nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:12:16 (GMT)
__ __ Sam Hardy -:- corporal punishment; corporeal form (nt -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:41:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- corporeal form as form of corporal punishment?! -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 08:38:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sam Hardy -:- silly me, -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 23:35:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ such -:- I used to perform that tune 'Suzanne' in '60s (nt -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 08:40:33 (GMT)

Ian Dury -:- The care and feeding of major donors -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:47:46 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- The Portland 'major donors' meeting -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 08:01:03 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- The Portland 'major donors' meeting -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 17:09:11 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- 'major donors' meeting - not suprising at all -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:19:04 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- 'major donors' meeting - thanks for info, J-M, NT -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:48:22 (GMT)
__ __ Ian Dury -:- PLEASE READ JM'S POST ABOVE! (nt) -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:57:08 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- This is disgusting.... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 10:54:16 (GMT)
__ Voyeur -:- The care and feeding of major donors -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 14:35:59 (GMT)
__ such -:- yeah, I got invited to some hush-hush meetings -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:02:42 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- The one time I was treated like a VIP -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 07:39:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Richard -:- Donations = good seats -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 14:51:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Dressing the audience -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:20:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Feeling special = Knowing Secrets -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 16:03:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Dressing Up for Programs -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:26:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Joy and Babs...Dressing Up and Salad Dressing -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:54:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ m -:- Dressing Up for Programs -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:45:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- I Don't Appreciate This, m -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:14:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- oops sorry, joy... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:22:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- Dressing up and down -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:44:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- Dressing up and down -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:26:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Feeling special = Knowing Secrets -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:06:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Feeling special = Knowing Secrets -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:22:10 (GMT)

Moldy Warp -:- God-in-a-Bod and the finger pointing crap -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:46:59 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- fake goody goody crap -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 03:32:17 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- the finger pointing crap -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 02:34:05 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- and all five fingers are pointing at THEM. -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 08:41:00 (GMT)

cq -:- this so-called 'Master' ... is a master-hypocrite -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 20:29:48 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Rawat is ALWAYS on Vacation!!! -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 15:44:56 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- (embedded message) -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:47:52 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- this is really pretty funny -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 02:40:29 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- He stinks out loud .....MY heart .. -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:13:24 (GMT)

Sandy -:- Charan Anand's definition of a saint -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 16:20:26 (GMT)
__ janet -:- by his definition, every activist on the planet -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 08:31:52 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Always good advice to mind one's own business. -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 08:15:43 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Think about this -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 17:13:48 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- The human factor -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 17:57:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- something about your posts -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:30:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- something in the way she posts.... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 03:08:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- something .... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:40:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- something .... -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 22:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- diazepam helps too just kidding -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 23:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Selene -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 23:46:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- don't underestimate me ace :) -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 00:14:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- So how about those Yankees....?! (nt) 8*) -:- Sun, May 06, 2001 at 12:58:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- I'll bet ole goob reads... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 02:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- what ole goob reads -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:45:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Not cool or pc, I know... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 23:18:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- causal relationship -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 00:29:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ oh and.. -:- Regulators sucked awful too but..... -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 05:15:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry the librarian -:- Here's one you will like, I think... -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 16:25:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks gerry sounds good -:- Sat, May 05, 2001 at 17:49:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nop -:- Just words. -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:30:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bob -:- BOHICA, BOHICA -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:39:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- BAAWHICA -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:44:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bob -:- BAAWHICA -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:52:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- BAAWHICA -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 20:12:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Question -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 20:43:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Question -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 22:11:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Question OT? -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:20:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- your lousy analogies... -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:25:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- OMG! What a laugh! -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 07:05:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- so that means you are into the big bang theory? -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:30:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- well it all depends on whom I'm banging ::)) -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:46:59 (GMT)
__ such -:- Yeah, I asked Charanand some things about m. and -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 16:53:21 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- I don't have a problem w/ Maharaji having privacy -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:01:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- But which ''privacies'' Sandy? -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:53:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Cynthia -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:28:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ geeerry -:- you poor, poor fucker. -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 02:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- I agree with you about 'which privacies'! (nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:10:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- No matter how 1 nurses a grudge,it will never heal -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:08:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- No matter how 1 nurses a grudge,it will never heal -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:39:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- No matter how 1 nurses a grudge,it will never heal -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:00:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hey this is the place to do it -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:35:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- Useful for All: including me, him, you too... (nt -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 08:11:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- N'est-ce pas! C'est la verite... [sans accent] (nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 02:15:53 (GMT)

Sandy -:- If...and a question -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 14:52:01 (GMT)
__ janet -:- you're getting it, finally. i have been telling -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 09:01:23 (GMT)
__ SB -:- He IS FAKE Dandy, yes. nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:40:08 (GMT)
__ __ sb -:- sandy nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:41:22 (GMT)
__ bill-stop making so -:- many threads you fuck head,,,,,,nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:53:35 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- so many threads - but this one is Sandy's outing -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 18:58:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- cq -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:53:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- You know? -:- Mon, May 07, 2001 at 02:38:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- It's two-way, you know ... -:- Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:29:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill-I love you cq but -:- you are wildly optomistic:) -watch, in a week,..nt -:- Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:36:36 (GMT)
__ such -:- Sought a Yogananda; got Lotus Robber Sewage! (nt -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 16:35:29 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- If...and a question -:- Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:31:35 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:17:37 (GMT)
From: SloeBurn
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Ending This
Message:
My wife was a premie since the early 70s.. I guess still is although she hardly every attends events any more. Sends our hard earned cash though. Anyway, I love her so much and none of that matters to me. The way I found out about this website is that I was doing some investigation into 'finding Knowledge' for myself. One one hand, she says it is the most fulfilling thing in her life, on the other hand, her eyes look sad when she talks about it. In the past, if I challenged the idea (I challenge everything until I can prove what's True) she would totally freak and start acting kooky. She is normally a very level headed gal. I went to a local meeting and watched the videos which seemed really great. However, the people seemed to be in a somber zombie-like state. I was worked up for this and expected to see people radiating intense joy. I have met some enlightened people and that is how they appeared. Comfortable in themselves, and so beaming with happiness that it overflowed to all around them. These folks seemed like they were enduring a long and painful sickness. But the message still sounded great and I kept doing research (I am a seeker, but I seek very carefully) I found out about all of this (the child abuse stuff, the things about Lord M, etc.) and I presented it to her gently. I think I may have made a big mistake. She is acting funny... I am worried about her mental health. Can she take it if all of this stuff turns out to be true? Has anyone here brought a loved one safely 'down from the mountain'? Are my worries that she will have a breakdown justified? For our relationship and her well being I want her to be rid of this cult. There are real Masters out there and they don't act like this. The genuine Masters I have met are very normal very humble hard-working middle class folks, but they have that something special and radiant that makes your arm hair stand on end. On the other hand, I am beginning to believe that she has built so much of her inner strength on this straw god that she might fall apart if he is exposed to her as a phony. I would almost rather have her keep believing in him.. but I also love her too much to watch her making a fool out of herself. Okay.. I am rambling, but I would love some feedback and advice. I was hoping maybe I could connect with some of the people she used to know who maybe got out safely.
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:42:49 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Ending This
Message:
Hi SloeBurn

I can not really add to the great advice that some of the posters here have already given you.
You say you are worried about her mental health this of course is only natal but you must remember that it is a very stressful thing for her to go through. The realization that a very large part of her life has been based on a lie and that someone that she loved and was/is so devoted to has let her down so badly. This, I can tell you from my own personal experience can be the biggiest mind fuck of them all.

When you are in a cult you give so much of yourself and it is hard to reclaim your own identity outside of the cult. The emotional ties of being in a cult are so very strong. For me it was very much like that film The Matrix where the main character is brought out of an imaginary world in to the grim realtities of the real World. But all I can say is that once your in the real World and you realize there's no going back you also realize that this World is still quite a good place to be in. My only advice would be not to force things. If she wants to leave she will but let it be at her own pace.
My personal hope is that it will all come to an end soon. Premies are very thin on the ground at the moment and getting thinner as we speak. But I fear m could well hold out for a few more years yet. But I feel we are very much watching the end game.

Take care of yourself and your Wife,

Kev.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:20:29 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Just thought of one thing that might help
Message:
SloeBurn:

If it is extremely confronting to your wife that you practice K without M's blessing, why not practice some other form of meditation? As Pat says below, they are all just techniques. I personally don't like the ones I learned from M anyway, although they are fine for some people.

There are plenty of other teachers out there, and even books where you could learn to meditate. Jack Kornfield and Thich Nath Hanh have books and tapes, and there are countless others. It may take the pressure off freaking her out over practicing K without initiation. If you go to any bookstore that carries this sort of stuff, you can browse the books and see what 'rings' for you, and start there. Or talk to other meditators in your community. Some communities have local peer groups of one sort or other where peers teach each other to meditate, rather than a poo-bah teacher. Also John Kabat-Zinn has books and tapes on meditation that don't involve being a Buddhist, or being any 'anything' (Wherever You Go, There You Are, and Full Catastrophe Living) (Kabat-Zinn tapes). I often use his and Plum Village's tapes (Thich Nath Hanh) when I'm tired, sick, lazy or fried.

Truth be told, a lot of meditations that involve breath are similar to 'holy name,' but are superior in my opinion, because there are more expansive uses and extensions of the technique, i.e., they are not just about merely following your breath like holy name is, although that's one style. Many techniques use following your breath as a starting point, rather than the whole point. Also, the lack of body awareness in K has been known to space out those of us that are more cerebral. There are other techniques that incorporate the body or parts of the body, the ambient sounds in one's environment, etc., bringing us more fully into the moment instead of spacing us out.

But as Pat said, they're all just tools to go within and realize that within is also without, so you are not missing anything by not practicing K if that freaks her out. Just a thought, don't know if it could help you here.

--f

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:06:22 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Ending This... netural topics of interest...
Message:
SloeBurn,

It can be a real shock for a premie to hear about a lot of the information here. Your wife may need time to assimilate it, in her own way. I agree with JHB, that perhaps discussing the Indian background, might be a more 'neutral', non-threatening way of talking about her exprience with Maharaji, rather than confronting her about him directly.

The people who write about the Indian background are mostly academics, who are merely interested in observable facts and historical records. They don't have an agenda or vendetta against Maharaji, they are not ex-premies (though David Lane is an ex-satsangi, but that also gives him some insights as well).

I was shocked to found out that Maharaji's 'secret' techiniques were also known as common yoga techiniques, taught by many people freely and openly (The only reason for keeping the techniques secret is to manipulate people). I learned about Bhakti, and how M. uses that combined with Kriya yoga techniques to create his own religion of devotion to himself, a cheapened version of Rhadasoami guruism.

This helped me to see him and what he is doing in a whole new way. It helped me to look further at what I was involved in, to then start looking at it all more objectively, and to eventually find my own answers and a way out that was right for me.

Probably the best thing you can do for your wife is just love her, and don't try to change her. Give her space to change, but let her decide, and find her way. If you educate yourself about the Indian background, you will have a better understanding of what she got involved in, and it may give you some neutral topics to discuss with her. Most of us did get involved when we were young, as it sounds like she did. Neutral information about the background of what she got involved with may feel less threatening than questioning her feelings about M., and lead to a more objective examination of the whole thing for her. When M. was new to the west, much of this information was not commonly available.

And Helen is right, too, it's not like your wife has to throw out everything cold turkey. The truth always holds up to scrutiny. If she does allow herself to question, she can let her understanding evolve and change, and decide for herself what really helps her. It may be a process, not a sudden break, and that's ok.

I still practice the four meditation techniques. But I practice them the traditional way, as Yoga, not Maharaji's way. He teaches them backwards, and all mixed up with bhakti yoga and all sorts of religious crap. It's like his satsang, he can say some good things, but it's so mixed up with rubbish, it just makes the rubbish sound more credible. But the rubbish is still rubbish, when held up to scrutiny.

There is a lot of information on this site, and links to many sources. Read it and learn. It can take a while to assimilate, I read over a period of two years before finding my way out. Give yourself and your wife time. I'm affirming for you that everything will come right for you both.

Best Wishes, - Chuck

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:55:44 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: what is more important,
Message:
you wife or the truth?

What a shit decision to make ha?

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:16:31 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: tough,but True;the Process may be hard but FREEing
Message:
Dear brother,

You sound like a very caring and conscious person.

Especially for the premie longtimers, confronting the dirty hidden skeletons in the cult closet and the money trail [at least the parts that haven't been erased or laundered] begins what can be a difficult but liberating process.

First, some of us invested a huge chunk of our adult lives in the cult belief system surrounding m.'s personality cult. Some of us sacrificed the allegedly worthless illusions of careers and relationships, perhaps lived in ashrams, regularly gave hard-earned money that could have been better spent on ourselves or poor families, spent thousands of evenings at indoctrinating cult events, framed our life cosmology around dysfunctional miragey as the central concept-maker and worldly authority figure, and gave him the kind of unbridled love and devotion truly only worthy of the real God [or life energy] residing within each of us ourselves.

The 4 techniques of meditation themselves are very old, and are shown by others, too, sometimes with no strings of devotion attached whatsoever. The come-on that the so-called knowledge is free is not true -- miragey sells it with a price - buying into him in order to receive it. Those strings are further sewn into the individual [like a puppet] by promoting the notion [via innuendoes nowadays] that one's inner experience is somehow tied to or reliant on him -- a fallacy. One can practice meditation and have some peace of mind and nice experiences without devotion to him at all, or going to the mind-numbing Big Brother vids, either.

When m. first came to the West, he presented himself as the Lord saviour in human form - divine. Now, it's watered down for acceptability and palatability in those societies where many people are now wary of cults and have heard about Jonestown, the Rajneesh debacle, Scientology brainwashing, Sly Baba, Maranatha, holy rollers, evangelical rip-off artists, Hale-Bop suicides, and other cults.

The decades of mental and emotional reinforcement by m.'s lectures, the videos, and association with other premies themselves create a huge mental onion of cumulative layers, that when peeled, however, reveals an emptiness at the core -- that is, the part surrounding m. and the cult organization itself.

Now, there are some of us who still enjoy doing various techniques of meditation. For instance, I incorporate some zen and Tibetan approaches of breath meditation. Even my mainstream medical doctors recommend breath meditation for health and relaxation. Also, I generally meditate on the inner light and inner sounds now in a quiet dark room [at night or early morning] without poking my fingers on my eyeballs or into my ears. I actually feel closer to my own Creator [or energy] within me, now that there is no mental obstacle of a guru or intermediary in between.

Giving blind devotion to m. for years has engendered a false sense of learned helplessness and has perpetuated a co-dependent relationship on the part of many people, whereby thousands of premies have been enabling his own dysfunctional life and addiction to gross materialism [the maya] at the expense of their own lives and destinies and the fulfillment of personal goals.

Miragey preached a mantra of 'no cheat, no deceit.' However, the facts presented on this site reveal a clear pattern of cheat and deceit by m. and his organization. He denounced drugs [and many premies felt guilty for indulging], yet did them himself - pot, booze, cigs. He and the org practically extorted money from premies through guilt trips to support propagation. Yet, the majority of the money has gone to support him and his extended family in fabulous riches. He loves to quote Kabir, yet he avoids telling the premies that Kabir also said emphatically that a true saint or perfect master does Not ask for or accept material wealth/riches from his devotees. He ran over and killed a bicyclist in India with his car, then switched cars in the motorcade, split the scene and let an innocent premie take the blame instead. He knew about reported complaints regarding a pedophile instructor, yet did not facilitate justice or offer apologies or compensate the victims or their families. After he got a cream pie in the face in Detroit in '73 and his brother, the WPC, and some instructors instigated a retaliatory murder attempt that almost killed reporter Pat Halley, he ordered his subordinates [including Michael Donner and involving DLM President Bob Mishler] to aid and abet the cult fugitives from the law to avoid prosecution and adverse publicity (e.g. 'get Fakiranand out of the country'). He and his older brother waged a bitter court battle in India over the earthly spoils of the family 'guru business.' He asked his personal financial advisor Michael Dettmers to procure young blonde premie women for his sexual pleasure, while he was married to Marolyn. Money that well-intentioned premies donated ostensibly for propagation and DLM/Elan Vital has been routinely diverted for expensive cars, planes, yachts, residences, watches, and other trinkets and material riches for 30 years. He authorized the creation of shell corporations [e.g. Seva], not EVI, that actually control the assets derived from the premie donations; and he controls those corporations through the interlocking directorates [in fact, the $7 million yacht Serenity is listed as being for the personal benefit and use of the 'owner']. He also derives wealth from premie-owned businesses in which he was given shares. Amaroo is not a non-profit corporation land holding. He sold the Malibu house premies bought for him for $250,000 back for about $5 million 4 years later, yet still lives in that house today remodeled and maintained at premie expense [estimated at 28,000 sq. ft. with a marker value of $25 million]. After purchasing and refurbishing expensive luxury jets with premie money, he has repeatedly gone out and bought new more expensive luxury jets, only getting a fraction of the projected mileage and lifespan on each plane. He has allowed his aides to verbally bully and abuse the premies. When the ashram premies began aging and it became evident that the cult would eventually need a medical plan and retirement homes in the future, he disbanded the ashrams instead.
He led premies to believe that they should pray to and worship him, even though he apparently admitted that he did not hear their prayers. Instead of taking any blame for mistakes or failings due to his directions, he routinely put the blame and guilt trips on his subordinates, the organization, and his devotees. He has to date not accepted responsibility, blame, or accountability for these things.

No cheat, no deceit -- That is why, finally, many of us longtime devoted premies had to say 'adios'. I mean, come on, how much does it take before intelligence kicks in -- even in spite of the cult brainwashing to subjugate our wicked minds and never leave room for doubt, especially regarding him. Sure, lots of us have messed up, too, in various ways in our lives. But none of us has claimed to be the master of perfection, the Lord of the Universe, the satguru, the saviour of mankind. What kind of role model do we have here? What kind of saviour of mankind behaves thus to his own devotees? What kind of master of hypocrisy is worthy of such blind devotion? Is this just some divine game [lila] or illusion being played? No! Are the facts presented on the ex-premie.org website lies? No. Most of them come from public records and/or eyewitness accounts.

Ok, now, what to do? When a longtime premie sees the information posted on this site, here are some typical reactions/patterns: initial disbelief, dismissal, justification, and anger, denial, then maybe some curiosity, then upon further investigation: shock, pain, sense of betrayal, anger, bitterness, sadness, then a sense of a veil being removed from one's eyes, a burden being released, gradually a newfound freedom, a sense of growing self-awareness and discovery, self-esteem, and a desire to experience more out of life that was missing or previously denied.

There is a gentler forum for recent exes or people leaving the cult. Sometimes this place [people] can be kind of harsh. If she seems fragile already, then get the recent exes email address from the forum administrator [as listed above in the menu at the top of the page]. Also, I would recommend finding a good certified mental health counsellor (with Ph.D. or at least M.A.), preferably one who is somewhat knowledgeable in this field of cult detachment [but one who is not attached to any cult or religious trip]. There are some self-help books that help, pertaining to codependency, personal space, setting personal boundaries, respecting oneself, etc. Lots of longtime premies seem sad -- for good reason. They have suffered and endured a life of emotional deprival and suppression of their own unique essences, dreams, and intellects, in many respects. Their lives have been sublimated and sacrificed at the altar of miragey's Napoleonic gluttony.

That having been said about miragey [master of the mirage]. I finally had to forgive him, because the anger and bitterness of betrayal was a terrible burden for me to carry around anymore. However, I hold him and the organization accountable for a number of things that have affected the premies and their families, and there must be full disclosure and responsibility accepted. Upon my last breath, I don't wish to be judged, either, for the pathetic failings and mistakes in my own life. But, because of my devotion to miragey, my only beloved child was taken from me, and I was denied my rights as a Dad in court, for being a cult member -- right after the Jonestown massacre. Now, my adult son won't even give me his phone number or address -- he is still angry and bitter, too. So, the harm has thus been perpetuated and passed along to another innocent generation - premie children. Imagine the prolonged suffering I went through when my wife left the cult and walked out, and then I was not even permitted to have my boy visit me, when I lived in a premie house!

I would naturally advise kindness and patience, lots of walks, talks, listening, hugs, and making and taking some time for special new experiences and fun or interesting excursions, finding a new vitality and joy in the simple everyday pleasures of existence, discovering and nurturing latent talents, professional and personal interests, and sharing new adventures together. Also, once [and if] she voluntarily takes the first step toward cult recovery, get rid of any miragey photos in the house, vids, etc. that are constant reminders.

I really must go now. I hadn't anticipated reading your post. But, after reading about your situation and your wife's plight, I felt honorbound and compelled to immediately respond. I wish you and your spouse abiding happiness and the best of luck -- and a new life of shared journeys, contentment within your hearts, and peace in your minds.

Ciao,

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami
[who is such a banana, too]
jai suchabanana... haha

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:11:20 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Truly a *BEST OF* post, thanks for encapsulating
Message:
so succinctly the whole 'exiting' experience - my sentiments entirely. Excellent commentary and advice for premies, 'spouses of', fence-sitters, and exes alike. Gary
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Date: Mon, May 07, 2001 at 05:46:04 (GMT)
From: Curious
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: A question
Message:
Are you 'new' here? I don't remember that last name.
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Date: Mon, May 07, 2001 at 15:26:33 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Curious
Subject: A question
Message:
That's okay, as long you're remembering the holy name . . . actually I've been posting here for the last couple of months - check the recent archives if you're really curious.
Gary
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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 01:59:51 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: suchabanana
Subject: *****BEST OF FORUM*****
Message:
It's a keeper, such. I'm printing out copies. You must have been divinely inspired. Best explanation yet. Merci, swami ji.
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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:33:30 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: *****BEST OF FORUM***** I 2nd the motion *BEST OF*
Message:
Forum***** five stars, two thumbs up blue ribbon post
Whooooo baby
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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 13:57:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: J-M_FA_webmaster
Subject: Definite*BEST OF FORUM* for this whole thread!(nt)
Message:
ddf
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:58:26 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: [para 7]',now that there is no mental obstacle'(nt
Message:
correct text: paragraph 7

w/o an unintended typo r.e. double-negative awkwardness mistake

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:16:09 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Typo corrected per your request NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:31:23 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: This is the kind of post that keeps me coming back
Message:
BRILLIANT WORK Such, you outdid yourself which is hard to do.

This post is a keeper and should be read by everyone who has ever recieved knowledge both current and ex.

You said just about everything there is to say about the whole GMJ cult experience from start to finish.

BEST OF FORUM NOMINATION!

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 02:50:18 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Oh Brian! ot
Message:
Brian, please email me.

Thanks, Marianne

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:48:18 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: You excelled yourself with that one . Thanks (nt)
Message:
g
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:26:30 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Excellent post!
Message:
Thanks. I will print it and give to some premies I know. You sumarized the guru extremely well.

luv

sb

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:17:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: I made a copy of your post, Such and I will email
Message:
to my premie friends because it is a good summary of of my concerns.

Dear Sloeburn,

I still meditate and, as Such says, once the guru is out of the way, the experience is even better, cleaner, more wholesome and MINE, MINE, MINE.

I will not presume to offer any advice about your situation. Like Such, I also lost a wife and child because of my involvement with the cult and to this day they do no yet trust me.

All I can say is that I wish you strength and hope that your wife will see that YOU love her and that the guru does not. As he said last year to the premies: ''I don't know your names and I don't WANT to know your names.''

Yes, sometimes he speaks the truth even if it is by accident.

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 06:14:56 (GMT)
From: Tony
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Me too,an excellent summary. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:16:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Such -- brilliant post, especially the end
Message:
This put a whole lot together, phew. Also this disclosure about your life, which may have been made elsewhere, but I've only been here for about 5 months.

But, because of my devotion to miragey, my only beloved child was taken from me, and I was denied my rights as a Dad in court, for being a cult member -- right after the Jonestown massacre. Now, my adult son won't even give me his phone number or address -- he is still angry and bitter, too. So, the harm has thus been perpetuated and passed along to another innocent generation - premie children. Imagine the prolonged suffering I went through when my wife left the cult and walked out, and then I was not even permitted to have my boy visit me, when I lived in a premie house!

This is so sad, and heartbreaking. I don't know when you exited the cult, or started peeling back the onion -- many of us don't exit all at once -- but I hope you've been able to heal some of this.

Are there are parts of the court judgment that aren't too personal, and actually go the heart of the matter -- damning the cult? I would think they should be enshrined on ex-premie.org somewhere. Of course, if the court judgment was more based on your own personal level of commitment, no use dragging that back out. Been there, done that.

Namaste, f

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 21:58:11 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: dear Francesca... (ot
Message:
Dear Francesca,

I'm sure you mean well, but I don't think most of us would want our old personal scars and private living hells cut open again, rubbed with salt, and displayed for public consumption. Indeed, other factors were involved, like a rich conservative domineering family vs. a struggling artist, extended extracurricular activities that deeply hurt my feelings, tactical perjuries in my ex's depositions -- and a prolonged, vindictive proverbial hell hath no fury - which only served to harm and poison my beloved child. The private parties involved would surely regard any inappropriate public display as malicious and harmful intent - and call their attorneys.

On the contrary, if you (or anyone else) want to reopen Your own wounds and publicly display Your own personal living nightmares and hells, private laundry, divorces, etc., that would rightfully be Your decision.

Please don't presume further. Right now, I'm trying to Heal my family. Thank you.

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Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 00:01:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: such
Subject: dear such... (ot
Message:
Dear such,

Sorry -- you explained more than you had to. That's what I meant by the last sentence of my post -- exactly what you said. No use dragging that personal stuff out for public consumption.

And like you said, if someone else wants to do it, fine. I certainly wouldn't presume that you or anyone else would want to!

love, f

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Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 09:25:28 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I feel such compassion for Marolyn and the kids...
Message:
Francesca, it's ok -- I AM, in truth, actually a deep and caring person, and I truly understand your honest motivation.

You know, this got me thinking:

What about all the heavy stuff posted here?!! I mean, Marolyn Johnson [aka Durgaji aka Rawat] was my friend - she was/is a wonderful person, at heart. To see all this terrible (but truthful) personal stuff [some involving her] displayed for the world to see -- hos got to be very devastating and personally humiliating.

Marolyn Lois Johnson: If you or the kids ever read this stuff, please know, Marolyn, that some of us still feel SO much compassion for you -- and your kids who were raised in the midst of all the smoke and mirrors.

Oh, dear God, if any of us has done wrong in the process, please forgive us all. More than anything, dearest Marolyn, I would have wished that the truth would liberate you and the kids, too -- and, yes, even poor Prempal himself -- who was clearly raised in such doctrinaire delusion, much sorrow, and dysfunctionality. After all, he lost his dad when he was very young, and thus traumatized, thought to continue the work -- but was himself then seduced by the temptations of maya [material illusion] and his own inherent weaknesses and mental confusion.

Enough for now. But, truthful abiding intuition speaks volumes, and there Is some wisdom, yes, in what I speak -- although, of course, I am just a silly, humble and lowly servant for the poor and meek,

Peace and lentils,

da lil' swami

PS that family court situation also archetypally personified the rote, institutionalized blind Discrimination against Dads and their kids -- which has harmed millions of families in our modern society - and contributed to much of our civilization's continuing problems and dysfunctionality. Let us therefore learn from the mistakes of the past -- and not be doomed to repeat them. Om da, Namaste!

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:31:08 (GMT)
From: Nick
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: tough,but True;the Process may be hard but FREEing
Message:
Wow! What a brilliant posting.

It's posting like yours, Such, so full of perception and kindness, which were instrumental in helping me to finally and definitively leave the cult (after 29 years)a few weeks ago. Your analysis of the premie reaction to the info on M on EPO so closely mirrored my experience.

Just yesterday I was remembering how easy it was for me to see through all the other cults over the years when I was a fully paid up premie, and how blind I was to acknowledging any possible fault in M. No doubt because I had so much of my life, physical, mental, spiritual, financial, tied up in him that I would not allow myself to even begin to consider that I could have made such a fundamental and far reaching error in my judgement when committing my life to him over all those years.

I first saw the Mishler interview about 2.5 years ago, but simply did not allow the content to penetrate - my concerns only centred around the 'negative' consequences it might generate if other premies saw it, so much was I the archetypal 'company' man. Then, more recently, as doubts really began to hit me and I spent increasing amounts of time reading this site, I became more open to accepting what is now so very clear to me (i.e that I was heavily involved in a cult, and have allowed myself to be very much misled). But it took time, and it had to be the right time. Otherwise denial is the immediate reaction, for one's own protection and self preservation (or that's how it seems). The prospective loss of a value system, set of beliefs, sense of belonging to a community of people, the respect you have within an organisation, not to mention the guilt trip and fear of everlasting damnation (and I'm not joking) is scary.

And yet as soon as I made the clear and final step to get out (which was marked for me when I actually stated my name publicly here)I have felt a great sense of relief and new beginnings, and see so clearly how I let myself be deceived. I still do the 4 techniques (actually, to tell the truth, just 3 of them) and my experience of them really does substantiate to me what many people here have said, which is that it is not dependent on belief in M in any way - no better, no worse. One big difference is that I am now free of any sense of duty in that particular activity, and that is very liberating.

I know I have a lot of de-programming to do. However, I feel fortunate that I have come out without major pain or bitterness (at least yet). Having said that, the support and help that this site offers is fantastic - people talking honestly and openly of their experiences with M: something denied to me (or which maybe I denied myself) for most of my adult life.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:26:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nick
Subject: Thanks for your post, Nick
Message:
I'm sure it will mean a lot to all recent exes like me.
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:51:37 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: suchji----------------ot
Message:
I got your E-mail and I forgot to answer it. Been totally busy up to my eyeballs. Sorry.

Jut thought to let you know.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:22:40 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: enjoy now
Message:
>but I also love her too much to watch her making a fool out of herself.

Maharaji has said some things of real value. Don't lose sight of that with what you read on this site.
Your wife will do just fine. Keep in love and don't try to 'fix' her.

>I am beginning to believe that she has built so much of her inner strength on this straw god that she might fall apart if he is exposed to her as a phony.

There is more to it than that.
Some people do feel something inside and base their strength on that even above M. Over the years M has actaully said to trust your inner feelings above any words. Not easy to do some times though. And certainly there are contradictions in what he has said. There is no absolute in words or ideas.
When you watch the evening news and also see your life as a little speck in infinite time, can you really say what true 'sanity' is. Or even what is really the most real thing in your life.
Anyways, enjoy your love and friendship and you both will do just fine!

CD

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Date: Mon, May 07, 2001 at 00:59:08 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: false vs non-absolute
Message:
'And certainly there are contradictions in what he has said. There is no absolute in words or ideas.'

There is a big difference between a statement being false and words/ideas not being absolute. He has made contradictory statements, and that shows that at least some of those statements are simply false. There is no leeway here. For example, he has said the following:

1. When asked what happens when we die: 'I don't know. At least I'm being honest'
2. When we die 'It all ends.'
3. When we die 'Something continues.'
3. 'Is there reincarnation? In my opinion, no.'
4. In the old days he would go on an on about reincarnation, he even talked about some 'hydrolics' involved.
5. He at least one time suggested that some premies were maybe followers of the 'Perfect Master' in a prior life.

The non-absoluteness of some words/ideas in no way accounts for these contradictions. At least several of these statements are false. Period. Are you suggesting that all these statements are true?

Why did you write 'ideas'? If you know something, it's not just an idea. Are you suggesting that he talks about ideas of his without really knowing what he's talking about? That he bullshits like so many other people? Hey, I can bullshit too, but I don't call myself 'The Master'.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:32:11 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Thanks for being candid, Chris
Message:
You said: ''And certainly there are contradictions in what he (Rev Rawat) has said.''

It is those contradictions that have cause so much of the pain and suffering to some very trusting, innocent and idealistic people.

And the contradictions continue in the form of the rewriting of our history to obfuscate any embarassing mistakes that he made in the past such as his claim that he was the greatest incarnation of God ever to live.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 03:58:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: re. M saying 'things of real value'
Message:
How about 'Get me the fuck out of here before the police arrive. Say the houseboy was driving'.

That was probably pretty valuable at the time. Or did you have something else in mind?

Perhaps '107 foot yacht'. That has value for sure.

'I'm just glad it isn't a new incident...'

No seriously, Chris. What's your favourite M line? - I mean, like the most amazingly profound, insightful thing you can remember him saying. Just one show-stopping example will do.

Like to share it with Sloeburn? Otherwise I fear he will not be so easily impressed. He's seen a bunch of premies 'trusting their inner feelings' and they just looked like they were enduring some dreadful sickness, remember.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 20:57:40 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: re. M saying 'things of real value'
Message:
>No seriously, Chris. What's your favourite M line? - I mean, like the most amazingly profound, insightful thing you can remember him saying. Just one show-stopping example will do.

'The peace you are searching for is inside of you.'
'Happiness is not a consequence'

Maharaji has certainly said things over the years that were very astute and true. Certainly any words I post here will only be torn to shreds no matter what their value.

When the plane rises abouve the clouds and the truth that the sunshine has always been there is experienced first hand, I feel what the peace hidden under the clouds of my ideas is.

I can share with Sloeburn that the fundamental message that Maharaji has presented is positive and valuable.
It has served me well.

Whatever anybody may think of M personally, the validity of what he has encouraged can be tested by anyone with their own first hand experience. You make your own choice.

Cheers,
CD

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:17:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: re. M saying 'things of real value'
Message:
'The peace you are searching for is inside of you.'
'Happiness is not a consequence'

Then why do you have to meditate for it and 'keep in touch' with the master so you don't lose it?

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Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 01:53:16 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: No one finds what you claim is inside chris.....nt
Message:
asdfg
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:50:47 (GMT)
From: GERRY
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: so true, Chris
Message:
Chris, how was the love fest at the golden lotus feet this year? I'm assuming of course, you went to Amaroo. I mean, you'd almost have to, what with all that money you make (I can't remember how much that was but I do remember you telling us all, and how impressed I was at the time) and they know your real name and everything.

I have to agree with you, Maha has said some incredibly wise things. Useful too. My favorite is:

SUCK THE RAT. YOU LOVE COCA-COLA !!!

Now isn't that a great line? I wish I'd thought of that. What year did he say that? Was it in the Kissimme era where all those people got sick working illegally on Maha's 707, guilding the toilets and stuff and then ole guruji sell the mess to Maharishi? Well, something like that.

And yeah, it is nice to have a nice life. That's a pretty nice guru you have, you know, letting that kid take the blame for the man Maha killed with his car in India. Such grace to serve the perfect master of our time, born lord of the yogis, lord of the universe.

Embarrassing, isn't it?

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:10:38 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: GERRY
Subject: so true
Message:
>Chris, how was the love fest at the golden lotus feet this year? I'm assuming of course, you went to Amaroo. I mean, you'd almost have to, what with all that money you make

Didn't make it. Funny that the money that should have allowed me to go prevented me from going because there was a conflict in timing.

I ended up spending the money on guitars and amps.

But, if I get a chance I am sure I will attend some more M events in the future.

CD

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 11:30:56 (GMT)
From: Diagnosis sought
Email: None
To: GERRY
Subject: Chris and sandy, what is the real flaw there?...nt
Message:
dfafsad
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:15:36 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: There are no Masters , incarnations of God ...
Message:
... although there certainly exist people who 'radiate' to others.

There are many more people who 'drain'.

I suggest that you leave your wife to deal with HER illusions , whilst you deal with YOURS .

Trying to convince someone that they are following a false master at the same time as believing that there's a true one out there somewhere , I would say is a recipe for disaster .

If & when she accepts that she has been following the Pied Piper for all her adult life she will be inevitably freaked out .

I'm speaking from my own experience , I felt like I'd had my legs kicked out from under me when I realised that Rawat was a phony .

Fortunately I had the support of my wife who said 'how come it's taken you so long to work that out'.

What I DEFINITELY wouldn't have appreciated at that time was being told , not to worry the real guy is still there for the finding .

Give one up , give 'em all up .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:04:58 (GMT)
From: SloeBurn
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: There are no Masters , incarnations of God ...
Message:
I think my definition of Master is a little different. I don't believe there is any one person, or even multiple people who are to be adored and worshipped as incarnations of the Creators. What I do believe is that there are people who have been touched by the Infinite and who also have a great capacity for nurturing and teaching. Just like a master carpenter could teach me how to build a beautiful cabinet, but that doesn't mean he is the only one who could teach me or that I couldn't buy some books and figure it out on my own over a long period of time. I do believe that when one person takes control over another, that clearly shows that they are no Master at all.
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:20:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Great gem there, SloeBurn
Message:
This is precious:

I do believe that when one person takes control over another, that clearly shows that they are no Master at all.

Thanks for that.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:09:45 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques
Message:
Dear SloeBurn:

There are no easy answers here. Your post was eloquent, and showed your love for your wife. Your support and understanding will be her most valuable asset. Because the meditation that Maharaji teaches is not unique, the meditation iself is not a fraud -- connecting HIM as the source of the experience is the con job. Or put another way, thinking that he is the human embodiment of the source of that experience. I prefer to do other meditations but there are several people who post on this site that still practice the techniques, and I hope they will chime in here. Hopefully with my subject line, they will.

There are some good links on the Rhasoami (sp?) roots of the meditation that M teaches, and the main ex-premie.org page has a link at the bottom of the page entitled, 'The True Spiritual Heritage of Prem Pal Rawat.' I think another poster also referred you to that link. I've only skimmed it myself, because I'm no longer interested in that practice, but it does show that these techniques are taught by many before him, and many other teachers currently.

Her experience in meditation are her own, and can never be taken away from her. In fact, she can gain more of her experience back if she realizes that it truly comes from within and without her, from her experience of life itself.

I think the reason people look so glazed over at the vids is that this guy truly makes no sense, and if you get your brain working around it, you'd think he was a moron. There was a commandment 'leave no room for doubt in your mind.' So the switched-off look you saw around the premies is the fact that, even if their brains work the rest of the time, they shut down anything in their mind that would be critical of M or analyze M in order to listen to him. Not realizing that he's a moron is a fierce form of meditation, wouldn't you say?

Anyway, I don't want to ramble.
This one is a good link on the spritual traditions from the ex-premie site:
spritual heritage, ex premie links

I really don't know what it would be like to have been around this long. I knew many rotten things about M even when I followed him, although not the total awful truth. I don't know what it would be like to be hit with it out of the blue. But maybe as someone else said, she's showed signs of knowing it's not all that it's cracked up to be. So make sure not to lay too much on her at once. And keep posting.

Best wishes, f

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 04:43:42 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques
Message:
I still practice the Special K, breakfast of seekers and suckers alike. In a nutshell (and sometimes I do feel like One) the experience is as 'peaceful' today as it was when I was tied to the concept that it was by m's grace. Clearly, the information available on this site about m's behaviour, lifestyle, and responsiblity towards his most ardent followers as well as my own experiences regarding m's cavalier attitude has made it impossible for me to retain any sense of allegiance to him. Indeed, Such's description of the various stages of departure after being thusly informed is so true. For me, it was a matter of having my worst suspicions confirmed and then a helluva lot more. Gary
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:14:48 (GMT)
From: SloeBurn
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Calling all ex-premies who practice 4 techniques
Message:
My wife has kept the 4 techniques absolutely secret from me for 15 yrs. I think that secrecy is one reason I was getting so interested in finding out for myself. She told me that the reason I couldn't just go and learn the techniques is that M said if I wasn't 'properly prepared' that it could seriously damage me. I had been questioning why they told me it would be at least 8 months but as long as 2 yrs before I would be allowed to get K. Now that I know about the techniques (from various websites) she is truly worried about me. I think she thinks I am going to be struck down by lightening or something. It is sad. She does believe that without the guidance of M the techniques won't work. On the other hand, she is afraid I am going to try them and do myself some harm. This is a normally rational woman with an IQ of over 140. I think maybe I have done enough for now and will sit back and let her think. I sure could use this forum for my own support while we go through this though.
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 21:06:08 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: 4 techniques
Message:
>Now that I know about the techniques (from various websites) she is truly worried about me. I think she thinks I am going to be struck down by lightening or something. It is sad.

Are you sure about the 'lightning' thing?

People oftne ridicule what they can't understand.
My experience of a knowledge session was valuable because the setting and preparation did allow me to have a full experience.

If you go out skiing for the first time and have no physical preparation or pre-launch advise to set the context, you just might not find skiing to be that enjoyable and not want to pursue it any further.
Thats the thing. You won't be struck by lighting on the ski slope but maybe by a snowboarder. No may not retain the interest that would allow you to progress to the point where you experience the true thrill of skiing down a fast slope.

Take care,
CD

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 12:08:54 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: rugu
Message:
On the contrary, my experience of the -modified- 4 techniques became much stronger AFTER breaking up with the guru.
More insight , more love , more experience and most of all: more sense of self worth.

Of course he said some good things during 30 years of speaking.

He turned more people away from God than he brought them towards Him, because many ex premies are very ambivalent after their decades long flirtation with this con.

Rugu: he who leads from light into darkness

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 21:02:49 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: u r
Message:
>He turned more people away from God than he brought them towards Him, because many ex premies are very ambivalent after their decades long flirtation with this con.

Not the way I understood the message.
To me the fundamentals were that I am living based on a great power within me that is common to all human beings.
The meditation is a method to experience the difference between ideas and what exists.
In many 'spiritual' writings I now see the common theme of the search for this ultimate truth about our lives.
And the value of the priority of awareness of our own true identity relative to the daily chores and our other ambitions and endeavors.
A very high self worth because what we are is great and not just a theory or what we want to believe. From an increase in our own self worth we can be in a position to share more.

The very people who now interact on this forum, whatever their current beliefs and theories, were originally brought together by the effort of Maharaji and the many people who assisted him.
Today the ex-premies continue to stick together. Most of them still have their high goals and idealism. Way more than your average person on the street.
I doubt any of the people participating on this web site would be doing any better never having encountered Maharaji.

CD

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Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 05:02:29 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: u r
Message:
May I recommend that you visit or re-visit the 'What's New?' section of this website and read the Michael Dettmers Speaks Out section. The main thing, you see, is not whether k is valid, it is about how m used and manipulated people who he recommended be devoted to him.

For me it wasn't just a matter of receving k and listening to m for continued inspiration. It was being told by m that the experience happens only by his grace. It was being told by m that this path was one of service, satsang and meditation and that by heeding his call (following his direction or agya) and for instance, living in the ashram, or doing 'full-time service' like those involved in the DECA project - this was paramount to 'realizing k', or being connected to the experience.

CD, if you take this enlightenment process seriously, and I believe you do, you listen carefully to m's advice as to how best to be 'in the experience'. Many of us who post here were quite sincere in following m's direction, because we were quite sincere about having the experience of k and serving m with the hope that we were helping to make this world a better place.

Every morning and evening in the ashram we would sing: You are my mother, You are my father . . . . You are may All my Lard to me while staring at a picture of m and somebody swinging an Arti tray. Whose idea was it that we do this? And while we were doing it (in the evening at least) m was half-way to passing out on booze and pot in the company of 'x-rated' acolytes. No one can dispute (except perhaps EV and m) that it was instilled in us that m was 'Lard'. Such as when M would make sly references in his talks like one I heard in Rome in the early '80s that went something like 'You know Jesus was around when the Roman empire was really powerful and influential - and people doubted him then, and Christians were persecuted and now here I am in Rome, don't you think that you have an opportunity to recognize (big smile)?' Or, the oft-quoted '...not a leaf moves without my knowing' or 'these are my creatures' - a interesting line spoken when referring angrily to a premie who was interfering verbally with premies approaching him in the darshan line one time in Miami. And of course what kind of message was m trying to convey when dressing up in the Krishna crown and costume?

So, what's my point? The point is, it is a well established fact to all who post here that m instilled in us the sense that he was Lard, Porky Master, whatever - and he encouraged our devotion - indeed, he stipulated that it was a necessary component to experience k. We entrusted our lives to him in service as per his advice. And what happend? Well, thousands of people made tremendous sacrifices of personal will, family, career, children, relationships, money, towards schemes that were meaningless. The ashrams which m said were going to be the 'backbone' of communities and central to his mission of spreading k were disbanded without so much as a thank you note and to add insult to injury - saddled everyone with debt - as if they weren't far enough behind the economic 8-ball after years of 'service'. The people who were involved in DECA worked their asses off for free at great personal sacrifice, in appalling conditions for over a year only to have m turn around and sell the plane at a huge loss, shortly thereafter. People have donated large sums of money that have gone towards supporting m's opulent lifestyle rather than 'propagation'. In other words, you took m seriously, you took his advice and direction and you got burned, burned big time. M has established a pattern of not taking personal responsibility for things that have taken place in his name, under his direction, by his grace. Actually, m has established a pattern of not taking responsibility at all - look at Jagdeo.

Now you come here CD and want to lecture us about what? k? Some of us still meditate using these techniques - if you've been following the FV then you know that these techniques do not 'belong' to m and are in fact shown by other teachers, fellow travellers, and have been printed in books. To make the statement that you think the majority of people who have taken the time to post here are better off having known m is ridiculously insulting when the very reason we are here posting is to help extricate ourselves from the years of abuse we have suffered by trusting m. Yes, A B U S E. ABUSE of our self-esteem. ABUSE of our trust. ABUSE of our young lives, So, I know you'll excuse me when I politely ask you to FUCK OFF!!!!!!!

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Date: Mon, May 07, 2001 at 20:40:01 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: u r
Message:
>Yes, A B U S E. ABUSE of our self-esteem. ABUSE of our trust. ABUSE of our young lives, So, I know you'll excuse me when I politely ask you to FUCK OFF!!!!!!!

Quit being so full of self pity and blame.
Do something positive with your life.
Yes, you have one.

There is no excuse for your insulting behaviour.
Hope for better things.

CD

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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 12:14:47 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: u r-------------------------------gggggg
Message:
Keep on posting CD, Always good for a few laughs
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Date: Tues, May 08, 2001 at 01:44:15 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: u r
Message:
Quit being so full of self pity and blame.
Do something positive with your life.
Yes, you have one.

Indeed I do and no need to thank the big m for that. And no I don't live my life full of self-pity but I do come here to lay blame at someone's tootsies for all the things I expressed in my post to you that you chose not to respond to.

There is no excuse for your insulting behaviour.

Ditto, CD. You have insulted everyone who comes here to heal from the real abuse we have suffered from m's deceitful manipulation by saying that we are all better off for having known him. Go figure, I guess EPO must really be about saying thank you. Leave off my last missive to you and re-read my post.
Gary

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Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 17:40:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Thanks for articulating that so well, Gary
Message:
Devotion to Rev Strangelove is still the key to the ''experience'' otherwise there would have been no darshan or arti at Amaroo. It is precisely this ''devotion'' that we are healing our broken hearts from. It was never necessary to Knowledge and is simply a primitive religion for peasants.
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Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 11:56:21 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: u r- AMEN!!! nt
Message:
ugrrruuuuggggggg
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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 23:50:28 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: u rug ur gu rugurugggg
Message:
Yeah, just like the 12 step meetings in jail.

Thanks to alcohol and drugs they can all share this unity.....

This is no disrespect to recovering --holics.

The bond we share on this forum is the fight to reclaim our lives.

And yes, just like those inmates, we do share a common history

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 22:47:12 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Encountering Mr. Rawat.
Message:
You say : I doubt any of the people participating on this website would be doing any better never having encountered M .

That's a good point for someone like me who never got close enough to the fire to get burned . I mean physically close , like washing his socks or gold plating his toilet , or working on his jetplane .

I somehow think , & please correct me if I'm wrong , that you didn't either .

Can't you put yourself in the shoes of those who did ?

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 18:56:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: rugu - he who uses his followers for a RUG n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:44:34 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: I hope you can find support here, Sloeburn
Message:
Francesca said to you: ''When I visited a former premie (who got me started posting on this forum) I was amazed that he was still wanting to bring people to EV so that they could learn to meditate. He has since left the cult big-time, and is a major contributor on this forum.''

She was talking about me. At that time (last October) I still believed that Rev Rawat had some sort of ''magic touch'' which would inspire premies to take the techniques of meditation more seriously than if I showed them or if they learned them from books or the internet.

Well, as Francesca said, the ''magic touch'' is to brainwash us into being devoted to him. The techniques are absolutely unimportant and are simply tools for cutting out outside distractions while pursuing inner peace. It is not WHAT you do in meditation that is important but WHY you do it.

Plenty of premies got nothing out of meditation and others got a lot. I also know people who experience inner peace who do not use any techniques. It is what you want that puts you in touch with peace not four simple yoga techniques.

I hope you realise that nothing bad will happen to you if you do them as your wife seems to think. It is that very fear and superstition which is the result of the brainwashing by Rev Rawat.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:37:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: By all means, use us for support!
Message:
I think that the whole reason for the 8 months to 2 years is to complete the ties to the cult, and M. If people could just get the techniques and meditate, the cult would not have brainwashed followers. 8 months to 2 years is a good long time to get the hooks in, wouldn't you say?

There is value to community and support and guidance from those who seem to know a bit more than us, at least at the time we seek to learn from them. From your posts above, I think we see eye-to-eye about teachers v masters.

Since I have been studying Buddhism since 1992 (I have recently gotten away from a cult-like involvement with Vayrayana), I have noticed that the teachers in many traditions put essential information and meditations in books. They encourage folks to study some with a teacher or group, but that doesn't keep them from sharing the nuts and bolts.

When I visited a former premie (who got me started posting on this forum) I was amazed that he was still wanting to bring people to EV so that they could learn to meditate. He has since left the cult big-time, and is a major contributor on this forum. There are so many Buddhist teachers, including Western Buddhists, that will teach you how to meditate the first time you show up, and never expect a thing out of you, or ask that you return. Babs wrote of a similar experience with a Tibetan Buddhist group in Boulder (otherwise she wouldn't have gone to the session). There is simply no reason to need to wait so long, other than to be indocrinated so fully, to have gone through so much, that one will be willing to stick with it for an inordinate amount of time.

After leaving M (along with the rest of his brother, Bhole Ji's, band), I actually went back in 1975 or '76 (memory does not always suit me well) because I was convinced that I had gotten the techniques from M, that he was the master, and until I'd practiced sincerely enough to see if they really worked, I couldn't abandon them. The brainwashing and the fear. I understand only too well.

Then I was in a premie band in LA called 'Beckon Gently,' and one of the musicians was having trouble meditating. She attributed it to the fact that she had never been revealed K through the proper channels, because her husband had actually taught her the 4 techniques. She had interviews and a special K session with John Hampton. Your wife has been told NOT to open that little box. And she's afraid to. My heart goes out to her, and you. I know many, many, intellgent people who somehow shut off their brains enough to coo at his babble and follow him. Since the 70s.

Best wishes, f

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:28:17 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Finding the way out
Message:
I was very touched by your description of your wife's situation and I wish I had some easy answers for you.
I, too, joined the cult in the early '70's. My husband doesn't really understand how I could still be in the process of getting over it, since he was never a premie. We've been together for twenty-two years now. We love each other deeply, work well together, and have raised a couple of delightful kids.

The main issues I am dealing with are regaining my creativity and self-esteem, and learning how to set appropriate boundaries. Having a good therapist is helping a lot.

There are a lot of things that have been useful to me over the years. I went through the est training in '79, at about the time I stopped going to nightly satsang. I still remember my amazement when all of the 'graduates' of the training emerged from the office building where we had been cooped up for three days, and there was a brilliant double rainbow in the sky. Up until that moment, I actually believed that rainbows were a gift from my Guru Maharaj Ji! I'm not recommending that your wife does est, of course, I'm just saying that there are many, many ways other than Maharaji's way to get where we want to go, and sampling from the spiritual smorgasbord is a real eye-opener for people who have been stuck in a One-Way cult. Mostly, though, I think she'll be okay because she has you. It was my longing for and belief in human love that got me out of the cult and into a real relationship.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:15:08 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Ending This
Message:
I'm not sure how helpful I can be, but I do want to say that you put things very clearly. Only once or twice have I tried to (gently) question a long-time premie about whether Maharaji was really the medtiation master he presents himself as - and I got the same reaction you describe - a fearful, nervous neurotic state - like an unpredictable, maybe dangerous dog.

I am also a careful seeker, like you, and believe if you pay attention to the really very commonsensical signs of healthy spiritual growth which you mentioned, that one can avoid the many fraudulent teachers out there.

Your wife's problem is undoubtably that she got into the cult when she was young and not so careful (the pattern for many of us here), and, not having got out earlier, her entire pattern of spiritual growth has been identified with Guru Maharaji.

The trick would be to help her accept that letting go of M does not mean relinquishing her connection with the Divine. Although there are atheist ex-premies on this site, many of us have continued our spiritual practices with healthier practices and groups. Gurus are supposed to encourage their disciples to 'graduate,' but most of them don't. Leaving M is particularly difficult for some because he is more than just a teacher; he presents himself as a Savior. So you have a Super-Teacher AND a father/child sort of emotional relationship which can be a hard crutch to throw away.

I hope some comments here help you...I can see how just letting things be might seem attractive to you, but I'd bet, reading your post, that you will find ways to gently encourage her to outgrow Maharaji. (In reality, I'm sure she's already outgrown that Big Baby, but she hasn't let her fantasy guru go yet.) Good luck.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 22:00:15 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Ending This
Message:
Sloeburn,

Be gentle with her. None of us here, even though we've been in the cult, can possibly know how she will respond to being challenged like this. Rather than confront her with Maharaji's behaviour, as you are a seeker, maybe learning about the Indian background, and discussing that with her, would be better. If she sees that Maharaji is just one of many teaching similar meditation methods, and that Maharaji's claim that he is part of a lineage is very debatable, maybe she will be more open to discussion.

It's sad for me to read posts like yours, because seeing genuine seekers after truth radiating is what drew me in to the cult in the first place. In those days most of us were fired with enthusiasm (from most of our jobs! - OK, I'll get my coat), but that initial inspiration had a momentum that kept us going long after the inspiration died. Hence the zombie look on the faces of those you saw at the programs. The only thing left is the attachment to Maharaji, and the need to see him to get fired up again, but it can only last while in his company, because there is no community any more.

I believe and hope she will see that her love for you is much more real than her love for Maharaji. Certainly, your love for her is greater that the non-existent love that Maharaji has for your wife.

John Brauns

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:22:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Sloe burn
Subject: Ending This
Message:
I agree with John. The whole trip has given your wife some sense of stability, a program so to speak, with which to focus herself. Frankly, I need that too. I have a program that I follow that has to do with pain management. It helps me pace myself and get things accomplished. Some of us do need some kind of program, whether it be a 12-step program, a church program, etc.

So be gentle with her. She doesn't have to give up all faith in God or give up meditating, etc.

I would say encourage her to think through this stuff critically, without giving up her quest for a gentle and loving heart. There's nothing wrong with the spiritual impulse, but I have definitely come to the conclusion that there is something very wrong with the idea of a master.

Noone can show you the way. They can tell you how they found the way, but each person has to find his or her own way. Masters are by definition exploitative. The idea that one must sit at a master's feet waiting for a crumb of wisdom to fall (Disculta's phrase)makes the devotee weak, passive, and eventually to give up his or her own ability to process experiences and decide what is right and wrong for him or her. Giving over one's power to another person can never result in anything positive. In the words of Joseph Campbell, we each have to become the authority of our own lives.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:54:50 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: SloeBurn
Subject: Ending This
Message:
Sloeburn,

If your wife is a normal, healthy person, she will be able to make the adjustment from a cult member to an ex-cult member. However, most of us here made the change at our own pace for our own reasons and we did not have the negative information about Maharaji forced on us. So I can't say for sure what her reaction will be. She may of course resent you if you push her too hard.

I do think she deserves to know everything about Mr. Rawat that is established here. On the homepage of this website is a link called Introduction. At the bottom of that link, is another link called 'The 14 Objections.' All of the information gathered for those 14 objections is reliable and verified. It is based on first-hand accounts and direct evidence and is not just rumor. Your wife may be shocked by some of it.

You should know that there are many premies who do know all about Rawat's smoking, drinking, sexual affairs, the hit and run, etc. etc., yet they still follow Rawat as if he is their spiritual master.

Nobody here can predict what will happen with this issue between the two of you. But I can tell you that it is invariably a joy once a person starts to rebuild his or her own inner strength as they kick their straw god to the curb.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:25:02 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Shoeburn
Subject: Ending This
Message:
Give her a hug and tell her you love her!

I think the ex premie site could do a lot of good, but try to trust her ability to cope with it.

Being overprotective, could be like co- dependency.

When I was tearing myself loose from maha. I ent a number of times to some 12 step programs like the AA. Not for substance abuse but for reckognition of a pattern.

To me it was (is) helpful to vieuw the time in the cult as an addiction.

But before I got to that point, I spent about 7 years carefully comparing and studying different disciplines, traditions while also trying to understand things going on in society.

Eventually knowledge (not'Knowledge') and love got me to the point that I dared to cut myself loose.

The actual moment was when I revealed the techniques to my girlfriend, breaking the promise to 'the lord', there by fully acknowledging to myself that he was a fraud.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 12:14:27 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: So what is m promise
Message:
Maybe I should add: Now.

What is he offering now. When I look back at the 20 odd years that I knew about 'the path' of enlightenment I can say that I haven't found anything. Ok so there is this thing that one can meditate on, there is this other thing that can 'lift' you up spiritually, and?

So what?

I don't know if m compares himself with other spiritual leaders. Take for example mother Teresa. Now this is a little old lady that shared the gutters with casts in India, I think she deserves to be noted. but how does m get noted? what has he offered the world? or the people that followed him. He has been successful in making money and increasing his personal wealth. But how many people has he made happy and how many has he made misrable.

so he offers 'knowledge' of the self. I think tht is a lot of bull. Anyone can do that. So again I ask, what is he offering that is unique?

I don't see the reason for being enlightened or not. Saved or not. In a sun of 1000 petals or not. I have seen it all, lived it all and experienced it all. I have seen myself out of my body even, so bloody what?

What a failed fucking experiment knowlege was. Or don't you see it that way Rawat?

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Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 18:14:25 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: I remember verbatim..
Message:
Or close anyway,
When you finally surrender, guru maharaj ji gives you himself,
he somehow comes into you and you are a part of him
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 13:28:58 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: He'll take you 'there'. He is MAGIC!!!
Message:
NOWHERE, of course. The guy is a fraude.

Gurus are good only for those innocent that believe still in Santa. LOL.

Do you really know any premie who seems to have it together? i'M SURE YOU DON'T. They are all still searching... How boring can it be, I mean, twenty some years later! No. He doesn't deliver anything but confusion, if you ask me...MAHARAJI SUCKS!!

Hi sweetheart!

SB, improving as it was 'promised' here...

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 18:11:04 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Funny you should use the word ''Magic''
Message:
Isn't that the euphemism he used in the 90s as a substitute for ''Grace?''

I agree with Salami Ji. So What?

And MAHARAJI SUCKS THE BIG ONE!

AND he can kiss my ass--fuck kissing his toes!

An idiot in fancy clothes, a fake with no intelligence, a lazy motherfucker who couldn't work to keep himself fed!

Cynthia,
Angry at the Cowardly Cowering Creep

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 15:29:21 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The Red Dragon
Message:
Oh, if I could only give his toes one more kiss! What I wouldn't give to have a pair of little Hannibals dentures so I could give Maharaji a darshan 'experience' he would never forget!

Give back the money Maharaji! Do the right thing. Whoops, I forgot, you don't have a clue as to what that term means.

Tonette- who still wonders and hopes to where this might all might end.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 12:00:29 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia!
Message:
Where did you learn to speak like this?

SB, nice to see you again.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:39:57 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: salam--Oh I'm an old time cusser from way back!n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:01:28 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: salam--Oh I'm an old time cusser from way back!n/t
Message:
and so what, right?

It expresses well our emotions at times, doesn't?

SB, who tries more and more to stop cussing but not always succeeds.

MAHARAJI, YOU MOTHER FLYER OH WELL, I am doing again: FUCKER!

Hi Cynthia!

SB

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:36:26 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Salam!
Message:
Hi darling! Nice to 'see' you!

I come everyday to read few posts but hardly post mainly for lack of time. E-mail me one of these days, would you? Or do the phone thing.

Are you ok?

love,

S

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 04:09:36 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: God and the Brain
Message:
The postings on God and the Brain have been interesting. The Newsweek article on neurosurgery is fascinating, though the author, in true Readers Digest style, wimps out at the end with a bet each way.

A TV interview recently with a neurosurgeon had him pondering the deep questions his job naturally stimulates. There he was, mucking about in the brain with a knife, prompting thoughts, emotions and transcendent experiences. Where is the difference between the brain and the mind, and between those and the soul and the heart, and the rest of the universe for that matter?

Aren't these just mental constructs by which we categorise varieties of experience? Does it matter if God is an all-powerful being or just a stimulus to the temporal lobe? Couldn't these been 'designed' (evolved) to be the same thing?

Interesting questions, posed by those of us comfortable enough to have ways to make it through the night. And it seems to me there are many ways, most of them with inherent dangers, and that's why sometimes a teacher comes in handy. But eventually you grow older and grow up - the shaman's apprentice becomes a shaman, and the Buddhist kills the Buddha when she meets him on the path. You find stillness inside yourself and love inside lots of people's eyes.

Some of the teachers have said, don't follow me, figure it out for yourself, everything I say is a contradiction, all I want you to do is get off your bum and wake up. Strikes me as good advice. Whether M would ever abandon the traditional Sikh master role, the Catholic conditioning, and the loss of a father at a very young age, is difficult to say. He's 43 now, and it's taking some time to look at the defences.

Meanwhile, press on, as Tallulah Bankhead would have said were she still in corporal form.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 19:00:43 (GMT)
From: El Santo
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: God and the Brain
Message:
Well said, Sam! I've been exploring similar Qs for over 20 years now.

Would post more, but some dude by the monicker of 'cq' seems determined to pick an odd fight with me... whatever the hell I post... go figger...

Recommended reading: Julian Jaynes' 'The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind' (ISBN 0-395-56352-6). Addresses some rather profound issues from a bio-psychological perspective.

Well worth reading... if y'all haven't already, etc...

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:49:08 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: More mind exploration
Message:
This is from today's newsscan Warning: slower than molasses this AM, but it could be our server.

Of course, I also know that what seems like such good science today is a laugh in about 10 - 50 years. The earth was once flat.

Francesca

-----------------------------------------

WORTH THINKING ABOUT: IS THOUGHT WHAT MAKES HUMANS HUMAN?
Author Brad Leithauser thinks we will be sharing more and more of our brainpower with our machines:
'Just how 'special' our brains are -- which is to say, to what degree they are not duplicable by machines -- has emerged as the central issue in the field of artificial intelligence. There is as yet no way of knowing whether any inherent boundaries exist to a machine's capacity for replicating human thought -- or how, if such boundaries exist, they might be categorized or defined. Meanwhile, researchers in artificial
intelligence tend to feel both vexed and amused at the way the public seems unthinkingly to shift its definition of creativity to exclude machines. In her book 'Machines Who Think,' Pamela McCorduck observes, 'There is superstition about creativity, and for that matter, about thinking in every sense, and it's part of the history of the field of artificial intelligence that every time somebody figured out how to make a computer do something --
play good checkers, solve simple but relatively informal problems -- there was a chorus of critics to say, but that's not thinking. In the next few decades, our society will certainly see machines dramatically extend their range of activities, and creativity will doubtless have to submit to a good deal of redefinition. Whether we will be able to keep the term at all -- at least in its present guise as a process both mysteriously and uniquely human is a question that encompasses deep neurological and philosophical issues.'

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:22:38 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: Couldn't agree more Monsieur Sam
Message:
I'll have to check that article out, another interesting one.

At the risk of boring everyone who's already seen the same from me here, was the experiements done with magnets over a certain spot in the brain, University of Oregon I think, even atheists had transcendent experiences when the magnets were over the spot. Some even felt they were in the presence of god, although one person who experienced this thought it was just one part of his brain racing ahead of another part, a la the reality ripping you can get on psychedelics.

For myself it's neither here nor there whether the experience is from some other 'transcendent' reality, after all if an experience has value, it has value in itself, not for the belief structures hung out to dry upon it, but then as a pseudo zen raver I would say that.

As I get further and further removed from the 'religiosity' of dlm and dim boy, the way premies hang onto their belief structures ahead of an openness to the moment in all it's glory becomes increasingly comical to 'behold'.

Ohh well, ces't la vie and all that,
ohhh and hello to everyone

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 20:06:23 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: me three, sam and ham!
Message:
The more we find out about stuff, especially the brain, the more we should become convinced that we are never going to know what the nature of reality is...and I say that not in the sense of one who scoffs at the scientific method or in the sense of a Newsweek writer, who, as Sam points out, always waffles at the end of such an article. (I just got it in the mail yesterday and haven't read it, but I bet the last sentence goes something like this: 'Whether it ultimately turns out that God is but a shifting web of neurons firing within the complexity of our fleshly computer or that God has designed us to perceive Him with all of our faculties, one thing is certain: scientists and theologians will have much to talk about in the years to come.')

This not-knowing we are talking about is really pretty liberating. I am fascinated by all this research, but not because my questions about God will finally be answered. I've pretty much accepted that there's no golden key (or Lotus Feet) out there; it's just up to me to cultivate awareness and compassion and see what happens.

As premies, we would claim it's just 'the experience of Knowledge' that matters, but there was always an underlying theology (most especially about the Guru, of course) that got in the way of a truly liberating attitude. The endless self-monitoring was born of an almost superstitious dichotomy between 'the mind' and 'Knowledge,' a Manichean distinction which did far more to keep us in thrall to the Guru than it did to free us from our neuroses.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:12:16 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: corporal punishment; corporeal form (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:41:32 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: None
To: such
Subject: corporal punishment; corporeal form (nt
Message:
I figured that, too, until I checked my pocket dictionary:

'corporal adj of the human body, bodily, physical'

Both are right.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 08:38:02 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: corporeal form as form of corporal punishment?!
Message:
Sergeant Hardy,

Sam I Am also meaning it more as a silly philosophical koan. You know, like that ancient Hindu philosphy: where we get reborn here into this world of ignorance and suffering -- until we finally pass, get enlightenment, and then graduate from this spiritual kindergarten in the physical universe.

Cheers,

corporeal swami

PS Yeah, both words come from the Latin noun [masculine form] 'corpus': body.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 23:35:02 (GMT)
From: Sam Hardy
Email: None
To: such
Subject: silly me,
Message:
I'm so slow on the uptake some times.

The only silly philosophical koan I could think of was Leonard.

Cheers,

Sam

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 08:40:33 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sam Hardy
Subject: I used to perform that tune 'Suzanne' in '60s (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:47:46 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The care and feeding of major donors
Message:
Richard said below:
'Having been involved with a non-profit arts organization, I can tell you that the majority of donors give a tiny amount whereas a very few give the majority of the money. This is universal among fundraising efforts. For every 1,000 donors of say, $25, there is 1 donor of $50,000 or more. So why play to the masses when the big bucks can be gotten from a handful? As for the masses, let them eat satellite darshan cake from Dish Network re-broadcasts - the middle-rung donors are providing that for free now.'

In fact, there is actually a highly synchronized 'participation opportunity' devoted to tending to needs of the most wealthy, generous devotees, currently called the 'major donor resource team'.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 08:01:03 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: The Portland 'major donors' meeting
Message:
From some anonymous (but reliable) source:

At a private resource meeting of major donors (for which some donors came from abroad) on the day of the Portland, M. spoke to the donors for an hour before the general program, and the donors pledged US$6.8 million for three EV projects in 2001, including upgrading the Amaroo site. People were blissed out about it, because the amount pledged was almost double the amount pledged for the year 2000.

Someone suggested before Portland that M. must be having the program because he needed money. From that perspective, it appears that Portland was a success .....

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 17:09:11 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: The Portland 'major donors' meeting
Message:
Someone suggested before Portland that M. must be having the program because he needed money.

Meaning???

Can you tell me of a time when m didn't need money??

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:19:04 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 'major donors' meeting - not suprising at all
Message:
After all, M is the god America deserves.

In the West, and most conspicously in the US of A, consumerism as a philosophy and consumption as it's ritual has totally replaced the religion many still romaticize about. What was Sistine Chapel frescoes or ancient Buddhist Thankas has become product erotica via TV commercials. High Mass is now mass consumption in the mall churches. So it is not suprising that the high priests of M's religion are the Major Donors and the results of their patronage and 'worship' are corporate jets and luxury yachts instead of cathederals.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 17:48:22 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 'major donors' meeting - thanks for info, J-M, NT
Message:
j
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 16:57:08 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: PLEASE READ JM'S POST ABOVE! (nt)
Message:
xxx
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 10:54:16 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: This is disgusting....
Message:
I feel sick. Looks like the gravy train goes right on to the end of the track:-(

John.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 14:35:59 (GMT)
From: Voyeur
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: The care and feeding of major donors
Message:
I had always (after the early '80s) wondered whether large contributions would get you better access. During a 'renaissance' with GMJ in the mid '90s I was present at some local head banging event about the need for money when a slide went up showing the level of donations received . I realized from that, that the level that would get you to the top few percent of donors was not much above $1,000. I toyed with the idea of doing it to see (I had the money), but luckily, never got round to it. Just imagine where I could be now!!!!!
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:02:42 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: yeah, I got invited to some hush-hush meetings
Message:
with m. for the big hitters. Instructions: 'Ok, here's where the meeting is. Now, promise you won't tell any of the other premies, ok?!'

Then, a good buddy and I were sitting up near the front at a major m. program, and he said to me, 'I can't believe we got such good seats on such short notice. I know this sounds kinda weird, man, but you don't suppose they've been putting us up front because of all our hefty donations?' 'Nah, I don't think they would operate That way. I mean, that would be Too Much, c'mon.' 'Good, 'cause that would make me feel kind of uncomfortable, y'know.' 'Yeah, me too -- if it were true...'

drip, drip, drip...

Well, we know better now, don't we, exes and prems?!

PS Upon reflection, realistically, maybe the lil' perks provide incentives for people to keep the whole gravy train running.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 07:39:30 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: such
Subject: The one time I was treated like a VIP
Message:
I don't remember the year but it was some time in the late 80s when Urug U-Turn came to San Francisco. Chuck and I worked out how much it would have cost us to go to Miami to see him and it came to a couple of thousand bucks so we donated that. I must have been feeling very devoted, pious and holy at the time.

The Urug came and we went down to the event venue and went to the seating desk to get our seat numbers. We were told to follow this church lady. Instead of leading us to our seats in the hall we were taken into a private office where one of the industrial strength church ladies whom we knew was presiding behind the desk. She checked out names off on a list and we were led to the second row in front of the stage.

I was in heaven. Till then I had always been so poor and had been banished to the peanut gallery, the last tier of seats before the roof from where the Urug looked like as small as a sequin on Mae West's tit in Madison Square Gardens.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 14:51:05 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Donations = good seats
Message:
Because I was doing all of the brochure design work pro bono, I attended a North American Sponsorship Program strategy meeting in Miami - mid-80's. It was said very specifically and matter of factly by Bill Wishard that one of the bennies to the larger donors was getting better seats. That's what I mean when I refer to the 'First Three Rows Club'. In one of those 'no bad ideas' quality circle type meetings, it was seriously suggested that we do a lottery and the winner would get to ride in the Lear 55 with Hisself.

It is not suprising, really. It's no different US politics these days where money means access and access buys power.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 23:20:46 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Richard and Pal
Subject: Dressing the audience
Message:
Wishard had done the 'up with people stuff.' I remember when there was a program in SF in 82 that folks with money and nice clothes were brought up front. He had some quaint term called 'dressing the audience.' Like you said, it's common practice in all organizations.

Even the Dalai Lama's teaching in San Jose had all these levels you can donate at, and then you get a better seat. The only thing is that it was up front, and right on the website, rather than presenting some other image. Even though they've turned the Ticketing over to the Shoreline Amphitheater, $500 will still get you a special seat. And I quote:

New Opportunity for Sponsorship
We are delighted to announce that a number of corporations who own season box seats at Shoreline Amphitheater have kindly donated the use of these seats to Land of Medicine Buddha for the Teachings of His Holiness.

These box seats, located at the back of the lower concourse, are available for a donation of five hundred dollars per person. In addition to this special seating opportunity, each sponsor may choose a name to be placed on, in or at the Sponsors Prayer Wheel.

It's standard procedure. It's the hush hush stuff as if they're doing a dope deal that's so strange. I used to think it was because some of the honchos in DLM's only business experience was dealing dope, but this stuff has gone on much longer than the 70s daze.

I frankly think the hush hush is because Maharaji has gotten so much personal enrichment from the coffers. If you walk around in orange robes and ill fitting glasses with some beads around your wrist and don't own much, the money might actually be doing some good.

==f

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 16:03:47 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Feeling special = Knowing Secrets
Message:
Hi Richard,

The only period during my life when I had special seating was when I was at DECA. They reserved a block of seats in the front of the hall for us because we WORKED up until rawat showed up at the live programming sessions. I was one who was told when to send everyone over to the hall, except those guys who had to do security on that fucking complex and at the hangar.

That's the rat's mentality. Secrecy is the bait, money is HIS reward. It's a mind-fuck to the maximum because those brainwashed money givers think they are special and their reward is to ''get to'' sit up front, while ratface couldn't care less about them--it's always the money--ALWAYS!

Chaa-Ching!

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:26:48 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Dressing Up for Programs
Message:
A particularly difficult aspect of the whole thing for me was finding the fancy clothes to dress up in for these programs, particularly if you were near the front. It is not easy to do if you're a supposed poverty-stricken renunciate who's been in the ashram for many years and doesn't have access to the clothes or the cash. (One time Peter Potter even declined my request for money for underwear! You had to become really underhanded to get anything to wear in the ashram, much less fancy stuff for programs.) In the end, it was such a double-standard there, we were supposed to dedicate everything, but then we were also in competition with everyone else to look like the jet-set crew which hung around Maharaji. I noticed the mahatmas and initiator candidates really got into this 'look rich' thing in a big way. This all makes me sick now, to think of it. I can remember getting a beautiful blue sweater with beading on it which I wore in darshan lines and then starting to feel funny that perhaps he'd seen it more than once and I better find something else. I'm so glad to be able to just dress for me now and not have to compete with 10,000 other people to look good in the eyes of a materialistic creep who didn't even care anyhow, I'm sure he never even saw me and if he did it didn't matter a whit to him.
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:54:50 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Joy and Babs...Dressing Up and Salad Dressing
Message:
Hi Joy,

I experienced the same thing. Here I was, at the front of the hall and I had such threadbare dresses I felt like a pauper. Yet, as an ashram premie, that was supposed to be okay. Poverty, after all.....

When I joined the ashram in Hartford, we had some pretty good income earners, and I was one. It was quite embarrassing to not have decent clothes to wear to work.

And Babs, throwing your new clothes away was so cruel! What were those people thinking? Never mind, they WEREN'T thinking!

As I said, it was all about money for him, not the basic necessities for us.

I remember once in Hartford, the house mother yelled at us for using too much salad dressing on our salads. ''Look at all that's left at the bottom of the dish, you're wasting it.'' she said. We all pretty much ignored her and agreed she was a little over the top on the salad dressing!

Sheesh!

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:45:06 (GMT)
From: m
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Dressing Up for Programs
Message:
Dear Joy,

Yes, I remember that sweater, it was beautiful and you were beautiful in it. I'm sorry my love wasn't evident to you, but know that you are as precious to me as life itself. Thank you for your years of devotion and your sincere love. It was the greatest gift of all.

Love,

m

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:14:30 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: m
Subject: I Don't Appreciate This, m
Message:
Whoever you are, I don't share your sense of humor, m. That was not an amusing post.

--Joy

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:22:34 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: oops sorry, joy...
Message:
It stirred me up too. I got a little teary eyed as I thought this up and wrote it.

But then I cry watching the Sound of Music--the first half.

It was thoughless of me not to consider your feelings. Please forgive me.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:44:48 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: gerry
Subject: Dressing up and down
Message:
But wasn't that exactly what we all wanted him to say and he never did? We just wanted to know that he loved us and cared about us as individuals, that he knew what we were going through, how much we had sacrificed to get to his feet one more time. The joke hurts because it reminds us that he never cared at all... We are all his scorned lovers.

The clothes issue was always a big problem. Never mind darshan dresses - just finding decent clothes to wear to work if you were an ashram premie with an outside job was damn near impossible! When I was living in the Houston ashram, my parents came to visit and took me shopping at Neiman-Marcus. They bought me some nice skirts and dresses, slightly below-the-knee length. The ashram housemother gave them all away to sisters who lived in premie-houses, and bought me some polyester pantsuits from a thrift store to wear to work instead because 'Maharaj Ji prefers pantsuits.'

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 13:26:22 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Dressing up and down
Message:
Hey I suddenly remembered an event in 75, I guess it was in Germany or so. I was still in the ashram. I had broken my leg during service 2 months before, and was walking on crutches. This gave me the privilege to have early access to the darshanline. It was cool to feel privileged for a change, although it did not make a difference in the 'spiritual' experience: nil. Usually as an ashrampremie you got a few treats from non ashrampremies, like icecream etc. and there was more freedom: you could take walks etc.
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:06:01 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Feeling special = Knowing Secrets
Message:
True. True.

I know I always felt 'special' when I got a bennie like going to a conference or was privy to inside info. I even got to sweep out the divine garage at Deca a few times. Of course, most of the commmunity premies would have thought you were very special, Cynthia, and been envious (jealous) of your gig at Deca. Like Donner said in so many words, if only we'd known how boring his gig was. For myself, I stayed extremely busy - sort of a 'idle hands are the devil's workshop' mentality. I burnt out to prove how devoted (and special) I was. But that is another topic altogether.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:22:10 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Feeling special = Knowing Secrets
Message:
Richard, they actually let you into the garage? Now that was sacred territory!

The only time I got in was to give Rev Do-Bad a message from Marolyn and I got really dirty looks from everyone, including the rat! I wonder if some X-rated activity went on in there like drinking or pot smoking....hmmm...all those cars = makes him feel special. Cognac and a drive? Pick your expensive car--he has 'em all.

I burnt out so bad I got a double whammy: feeling special for working so hard vs. guilty for not working as hard as the other premies (a bad devotee) and being sent away. For a true believer, darshan withdrawal can be devastating and I was a mess!

Above and beyond all the shit that went down, it is soooo good to be out of his grips.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:46:59 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: God-in-a-Bod and the finger pointing crap
Message:
I was going to post this below in 'god-in-bod fucks with your will' thread, but, on second thoughts thought it was a separate, but related, subject.
It is, namely, the immortal lines:
IF YOU POINT ONE FINGER AT SOMEONE THREE FINGERS ARE POINTING BACK AT YOU

Wot the fuck does this ACTUALLLY MEAN?

It means
- don't use your own judgement (cos it's warped by the 'world'- not to mention the imnmortal but fatally flawed 'mind').
- don't evaluate anything or anyone cos it's just your 'mind'.
- if you do ANYTHING even remotely assertive you'll regret it.

Wot a pile of complete bollocks
(with due deference to Jesus and his 'Look not at the mote in your brother's eye when you've got a beam in your own' stuff! But, come to think of it, how do you fit a fucking beam in your eye)
Moldy Warp who's spent far too long listening to 'spiritual' wisdom but now prefers 'earthly pleasures'!

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 03:32:17 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: fake goody goody crap
Message:
I've always had an awful time with it even when I'm doing it :) My intolerance was buried and used to surface as a feeling of inadequacy that i couldn't be that 'pure' or 'nice' whatever.

Recently the pendulum swung big time and I could barely stomach it at all. would literally cringe in all ways but physically.
That gets uncomfortable so I tune it out. I have to where I work there are so damned many people like that they couldn't exist in a less sheltered environment. ugh.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 02:34:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: the finger pointing crap
Message:
Now Moldy, I read this wonderful piece of wisdom about turning the other cheek on the web yesterday. It was on the home page of a black gay guy in Washington DC. He is a political activist and very much into fighting the prejudice against gays in the African-American community.

He was raised by a poor working-class black family of church-going christians and was taught never to point fingers or judge others and always to simply accept his fate in life.

He said:

''Remember this whenever you are being insulted or unjustly accused or have been abused or taken advantage of:

It takes 32 muscles to frown and scowl but it only takes four muscles to reach out your hand and

BITCH SLAP THE MOTHERFUCKER ALL THE WAY TO KINGDOM COME!''

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 08:41:00 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: and all five fingers are pointing at THEM.
Message:
so there.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 20:29:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: this so-called 'Master' ... is a master-hypocrite
Message:

The request of the heart

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in London, 13th June 1998

What am I doing with my life? Do I feel
contentment, or not? Do I look at this
life in the simplest of terms, or has
everything become complicated? Of all
the people that I listen to during my
day, during my life, do I listen to my
heart? And when my heart speaks to
me, do I understand what it is saying?
Will your heart tell you to buy a new
car? No. Will the heart tell you to take
a vacation? No.
Your boss might, your wife might, but
your heart won't. The request the heart will put out is
for you to be fulfilled. And when the heart is fulfilled, it
only says, 'Beautiful'. Because your heart is simple.
Your life is simple. You are simple. That is your nature.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 15:44:56 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Rawat is ALWAYS on Vacation!!!
Message:
He's on vacation from being a decent human being. On vacation from honest work. The only work he probably does is wipe his own ass on the golden toilets he so adores.

FUCK MAHARAJI! Got that EV Monitors? YOUR lord is a lazy son-of-a-bitch! Btw, what ever happened to the Jagdeo issue? Carefully tucked under the Urug?

Please tell him that from me.

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:47:52 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: (embedded message)
Message:
'.........And when the heart is fulfilled, it
only says, 'Beautiful'. Because your heart is simple.
Your life is simple. You are simple. That is your nature. (So sit back, enjoy and let me do your thinking for you. Just do what I say)'
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 02:40:29 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: this is really pretty funny
Message:
Listen: (repeated from above)

'The request the heart will put out is
for you to be fulfilled. And when the heart is fulfilled, it
only says, 'Beautiful'. '

M is describing the feeling he gets when he finally gets his mitts on the jet he's been craving.

Now, I don't think Prem Pal consciously thinks, 'Hey, I'll convince my followers to be antimaterialistic so they'll send their money to me and I can buy shit and I'll base my pitch on Hindu scripture about nonattachment and following the heart...wow...how post-meta-ironic!'

But,pretty funny, nonetheless.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:13:24 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: He stinks out loud .....MY heart ..
Message:
...tells ME to buy YOU a new fucking yacht that YOU can float about in , over the ocean of shit that's US , because YOU convinced ME that YOU need a new jetplane so YOU can convince THE WORLD that YOU are up there with the all time greats illumination wise .

Now YOU need a holiday.

Well , FUCK YOU .

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 16:20:26 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Charan Anand's definition of a saint
Message:
I have had a particularly open-hearted morning toward everyone, no bias towards anyone. So I am going to post the following and then I MUST take care of some other things and be away from here, so if I don't respond to replies, I will later. I did not mean to tie up the threads this morning, and it was not for sport, amusement, or to mess with anyone here in any way.

It came to me this morning...Charan Anand's definition of what a saint is:

'A saint is somebody who minds his own business.' -Mahatma Guru Charan Anand

And I used to think it was so cool, so above-it-all to be like that.

So the question then becomes:

'What IS your business, to cover your own ass and stay in the good graces of your Master and your peers at all costs, even to the point of shoving the welfare of premies and their children under the rug and hope it goes away?

or

To BE that great soul that 'mahatma' means and stand between the darkness and the devotees as a shield and a protector? If Maharaji is the protetor of the weary and the weak, who is weaker in this world than a little child? And should not his assistants, his 'great souls' to be carrying the same banner of protecting the weary and the weak, like a knight carries the colors for his king?

Everybody have a good day. Later.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 08:31:52 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: by his definition, every activist on the planet
Message:
is automatically barred from sainthood.
even mother theresa.

that shows you what I think of that little piece of advice.

greenpeace?
the peace corps?
Seva?
PeTA?
Amnesty International?

this man's stock is dropping lower and lower in my portfolio with every new piece of research I hear about him.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 08:15:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Always good advice to mind one's own business.
Message:
But I'm not a saint (too much hard work) so I'll poke my nose in here.

Charananand and Urug U-Turn are just as capable as you are of saying something wise and sensible. That's part of the problem. Like I said to you before the urug mixes up some quite sensible satsang (''you are going to die for sure so make the most of this moment'') with absolute brainfarts about filaments, wild horses and captains of sinking ships etc.

Did you never notice that whenever the urug was talking about the eternal verities such as death and the need to enjoy each moment that he seemed to be inspired but as soon as he started talking about the Master (always in the third person) he would look like an ego-tripping cocaine addict in need of a thorazine shot?

If you needed a permanent master you would have been born with one attached to your navel. So you got K from him and you enjoy it - so do I. It's time to move on. You don't have to join in the baby throwing festivals. I only do it because it's fun to be irreverent.

Just realize that you can enjoy K without compromising your integrity by being attached to another man who calls himself a master. It's too silly and un-American. And not only unnecessary but stunting to your growth as a man.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 17:13:48 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Think about this
Message:
Sandy,

Did you read that link that Roger posted about Religion And The Brain? It's a little thick, but I think it's worth reading.

Consider this. If what's said in that article is true, than all Maharaji is, is a catalyst for spiritual consciousness, and the only reason he may be that is because you believe it, because this whole elaborate scheme has been setup for the purpose of inducing spiritual consciousness. This stuff about perfect masters who have the power to impart knowledge of God only works because the brain is preprogrammed to respond; not everybody's brain, but certainly those who feel closer to God through Maharaji.

Now, if that's all it is, wouldn't all your defense of Maharaji really be protection for your spiritual experiences you've had by him? Isn't THAT what you're really afraid of losing by renouncing Maharaji? That's almost understandable, because the experience is one you obviously desire. My advice to you is shop around and find another means for that experience that doesn't require your devotion to another human being. That can only end in a bad way. There's nobody out there who can possibly live up to the standards we impose on them for us to believe in them without question, and that can't help but rob you of the fullness of experience you're looking for.

Bottom line, Maharaji, at this point, only gets in your way of you achieving what you're trying to. The seeds of doubt have been planted (through his own doing) and that's never going to change. Maharaji has muddied his own waters, and in turn, the experience of God you use to find through him. The guy just ain't gonna work for you anymore.

Time to move on.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 17:57:28 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: The human factor
Message:
You can really get off with a stud farm ejaculator, but a compatible human partner and a healthy balanced love relationship is preferable to me at least.

You can read or go to movies constantly to vacariously experience the emotional spectrum, or you can have a human life of your own.

You can read the reviews of others and decide where and what to go, eat, look at, spend time with, or you can utilize your own sense of judgement and make your own human agenda.

You can eat space food out of a tube or you can enjoy a great homecooked meal.

You can seek God through the brain functions and the science of it, probing the brain and shooting current into different areas or holding magnets here and there or you can seek the company of a human teacher and human fellow travelers going the same direction.

Romantic notions? Antiquated ideas in the cyber world of the 21st century? Call me old-fashioned, but I rather enjoy the idea of a real human Master (not as in master-slave, but as in master of the self and imparter of that Knowledge). More than that, I would enjoy a world where everyone has reached mastery and there is no more need for a redeemer, for all would have been redeemed.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 00:30:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: something about your posts
Message:
Have not read many but when I do I get this sense of being preached to, told how it all should be in the World According to Sandy. I am goingto hit and run and not read for a while as I perceive that you do not give a shit and I may be wrong of course. hope so.

I have trusted my ability to find and read about the books and movies I like and do so often by reading reviews.
And what is the fuck is so bad about reading or going to good films? Ever think it coud EXPAND your experience rather than belittle or limit it?

And I may add I live life as well and have a lot of people in my life more than I can stay in touch with as often as we'd like.

And eating for the pure gluttony of it is gross if done too much and makes one fat. Personally I would not mind being able to make up for those times by taking a pill for a few days and getting everything I needed minus the fat and calories.

Your post remind me of some old starship song that I never liked (should have read a review by people I trust) some line goes on about living in stories and living in books or you can live and leave all the stories behind. A canned cookbook how to live pat answer like myold friend M used to give. Doesn't ring quite well with me seems to be a bit like the urug thinking.
Wonder what books M has around the house? Any idea Sandy?

selene - likes to read doesn't want to seek god no mastery neither. oh wait I am getting good at programming again hahaha can imagine your thoughts on living in cyberspace.
Oh hi is that you here?

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 03:08:12 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: something in the way she posts....
Message:
Hi Selene,
Gotta be brief. I did not mean to never read or never go to movies, I meant not to immerse so deep in fiction that the reality of one's own life gets lost...sorry i thought that was a given. I'm shot for the day. G'night.
Sandy
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:40:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: something ....
Message:
You said:
I meant not to immerse so deep in fiction that the reality of one's own life gets lost

awwww Sandy that is too easy.
I did that for a many a year. It was call being a premie.

LOL. Take care.

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 22:44:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: something ....
Message:
Hi Selene,

Y'know, I was thinking this afternoon from my experience about what occupies a premie's head according to the script. It used to be s-s-m. Now it's called something else, but it is essentially the same thing. A premie is supposed to be thinking about Maharaji 24/7, and it's about devotion, and also feeding one's own head and staying high on a personal level. Closed circuits are created becasue we are not supposed to discuss our personal experiences of the Knowledge, but all nod in that gotcha way when together, yet there is not the kind of tangible human warmth one would expect between devotees. Everyone seems to be in their own head and that is what they have been conditioned to be. Being natural seems to be reserved for the Master, while the rest seem to just react and knee jerk, not really relax or be natural. But then again, I have not been around premies for almost two years. It's all about, 'oh Maharaji, help ME have THAT experience, and hardly ever, 'oh Maharaji, please help that poor old lady I saw today on the street and gave some help to'...

I have missed praying for somebody besides myself. So I started again and I feel much better. Who do I pray to? I pray to the God of all gods, the Prime Creator, Numero Uno, formless and infinite. No dogmas, no mantras, no frills. The same God I believed in before and since I met Maharaji. I have seen evidence of it working, so not only I am benefitted by my spiritual practice, somone else's life is going smoother beside my own. I was taught that one gets what one wants or needs by helping others get what they want or need...not by just going for one's own booty first.

I am also starting to get that good feeling of life unfolding as it should, problems and all, and being able to deal with it all from a calm place, from prayer and being still for a bit...very similar feeling to the one that follows practicing Knowledge.
Amazing....grace.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 23:12:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: diazepam helps too just kidding
Message:
Guess we all have our own steps we take. I'm happy for you that you are feeling good.
I do realize that my exiting process was very odd. I was engulfed in anger for many many months acting out on it in impossible ways and do think the repression you describe was a big contributor.
When I look back over 98 and 99 I am amazed I survived. I think the worst is over.
It would most likely have been less destructive if I did believe in God, pray, etc. But I couldn't and still can't. My sister gave me a copy of the Seat of the Soul after my mother died last fall. I still can't read it. All I can remember is our childhood and the cold comfort religion offerred in the midst of deprivation and abuse.
But if praying helps you and you are finding your way that is wonderful and not at all for me to judge.
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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 23:46:27 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Selene
Message:
Selene,

I'm not gonna try to sell you on a religion, any religion
I'm not gonna try to prove anything
I'm just gonna ask you to lcose your eyes and look at your body from about six feet away, taking away the skin, muscles, and revealing in transparency so you can see right into them, the blood/circulatory, breathing/respiratory, cerebral/spinal cortex, stomach spleen, pancreas, all of them, pulsing and doing their jobs, the actual systems that are sustaining life in your body...just focus on yourself in that way, watch you blood gush out of your heart and flow through all those little tubes and back again...like a beautiful fountain, that's what we are. So think about that a bit and then ask yourself if you don't feel the slightest bit of a desire to thank whoever set this up for you...and then living a life based on that thankfulness. Just think, no more war or human strife on any level, all from the simple experience of realizing that we are guests here and we are just passing through and this place is unconquerable because we all die and it remains and goes back to its nature again and again. How great it would be to be included in that transformation of earth to heaven and live to tell about it. That's my kind of religion. You don't ahve to talk about it to feel it.

Once Abraham Lincoln was approached by some rahter gossipy Washington society matrons. They asked him:
'President Lincoln, how can you bear all the responsibilities and be an atheist?' President Lincoln asked them why they thought he was an atheist and they said because none of them had seen him going to church on Sundays at any chuches in the area. To which the quiet man replied:
'Ladies, I believe that a person's realtionship with God is personal.'

Sandy

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Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 00:14:52 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: don't underestimate me ace :)
Message:
I do indeed understand the diff between dogma and personal spirtuality. I don't think *you* are getting me.

Have a headache and do not want to contemplate blood gushing anywhere at this particular time. Sandy, I said I was happy you felt good. And didn't mean to imply a cry for help on my part I am doing quite well. Finished a huge work project except for fine tuning that I am procratinating by being here.

I don't like doing those visualiztion type things and don't want to. I won't take styrofoam bats in therapy sessions and pretend to hit ex husband or guru either. my deep joy that comes at times is not so dissimilar from what you are trying to say, I just don't tell others how to do it. I do think you meant well. You just haven't gotten to know me I guess. No problem. If I need fixing it will happen I am sure as my history has shown me I don't get away with avoiding much of anything in that area.
Thank you.
Respect, Selene

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Date: Sun, May 06, 2001 at 12:58:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: So how about those Yankees....?! (nt) 8*)
Message:
safdrg
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 02:09:55 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I'll bet ole goob reads...
Message:
STEPHEN KING !!!
.
.
.
.
.
very funny post btw selene.

literary note: SK's book On Writing is excellent.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 22:45:10 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: what ole goob reads
Message:
goob doesn't need to read does he?
I hope he doesn't read Stephen King. I know everyone laughs at Stephen King but I have read some very good books by him. And wasted money on some of the worst trash ever written don't know how he can be so inconsistant and I gave up even buying his latest at the used bookstores.
The book on writing WAS good if it's the one I am thinking of. Was a while back.

pls kick in with Roger I have decided the Ritz-Carlton is preferable to the Fairmont. Thank you very much.

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 23:18:42 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Not cool or pc, I know...
Message:
but I really like Stephen King's books. He seems like a decent and down-to-earth person.

The book On Writing is quite new, 2000 I think, and it contains a graphic description of his horrible ordeal of being struck by an automobile. Are you sure you read it? It has some absolute gems about writing, it's very entertaining and irreverent. Don't miss it!

What books of his did you think were trash?

Anyway, I think consistency is way over-rated. Stephen tells about writing Cujo and not remembering much of the experience, only that he was typing with a beer in one hand and a coke spoon in the other. Had to stuff q-tips up his nose so he wouldn't bleed on the keyboard. He quit drugs and alcohol some time ago, however. Could there be a causal relationship here?

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 00:29:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: causal relationship
Message:
I'm not certain there is a pattern. Almost hope there isn't cause I will never write again if there is :)

And I 've never understood the snob factor about SK.
His last novels I bought I hated. Desperation, I didn't finish.
Don't even remember what else, that trilogy. But The Green Mile was great.
Delores Clairborne was great. Loved The Stand, Shawshank Redemption, The Body (Stand By Me was the movie)

My first reading was The Shining (another book botched in movie form by Kurick imo) I was on my way to a Miami 'festival' and we stopped at someone's house in Houston they all wanted to go out and I was too fried. Checked out the bookshelves and by the time they got home at 1 a.m I was scared shitless.
You are right I didn't read the new book on writing. Years ago he had something written about writing horror stories.
I will check it out.

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 05:15:03 (GMT)
From: oh and..
Email: None
To: jlkjlkdjl;kj
Subject: Regulators sucked awful too but.....
Message:
It's like the recording biz from what I have seen it's similar I think, you can only pump out so many hits. If you are a prolific author you are bound to put out some junk as well. It's just when he is bad he is SOOOOOO bad.
I still thank Stephen King for helping me through a divorce and for many writing inspirations. Sandy please don't think ill of this :) I was still alive then too. I could have just od's on meth.
New favorite authors are whoever wrote Bridget Jones and Fight Club have both on shelves too lazy to go look goodnight love, selene.
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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 16:25:33 (GMT)
From: gerry the librarian
Email: None
To: oh and..
Subject: Here's one you will like, I think...
Message:
My Sister Life: The Story of My Sister's Disappearance

by Maria Flook

Yes I have it right, 'sister' is singular. Here's some reviews.

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Date: Sat, May 05, 2001 at 17:49:28 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: gerry the librarian
Subject: thanks gerry sounds good
Message:
I might pass it on to my sister when done. She still draws a blank when attempting to understand my life after about I was around fourteen and on.
#$#$#@#%@@! oh well.
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:30:21 (GMT)
From: Nop
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Just words.
Message:
A true master empowers poeple and a good analysis of maharaji's words can show that he is not interested in the long run to empower you but to make you dependant, behind the lie that you need guidance to live your life well. He is no true master.

Darshan Sandy?

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:39:32 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: BOHICA, BOHICA
Message:
BOHICA

Bend
Over
Here
It
Comes
Again

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:44:25 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: BAAWHICA
Message:
Backs
Against
A
Wall
Here
It
Comes
Again...

Why in the world would you voluntarily bend over if you know it's coming again?

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 19:52:06 (GMT)
From: Bob
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: BAAWHICA
Message:
Reading about 'a real human Master'
There ain't no such animal.

We of all people should have learned this.

This gurudiction can only lead to another waisted 20 years.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 20:12:18 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Bob
Subject: BAAWHICA
Message:
Reading about 'a real human Master'
There ain't no such animal.
We of all people should have learned this.
This gurudiction can only lead to another waisted 20 years.
-Bob

So just because you had bad experiences with one person, there ain't no such animal? I would beg to differ, but that is just conjecture on my part. Maybe the real role of a so-called Master is just that - to impress upon those who have eyes to see, that they need to be their own masters. If that is realized from the experience, then it was not wasted time. I don't exactly want to be a permanent gopi groupie either.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 20:43:39 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Question
Message:
What makes a master a real master?
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 22:11:35 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Question
Message:
What makes a master a real master? -Jerry

Big question and a good one.
The tree is known by its fruits.
What does a master grow?
I used to think a master grew more masters (of self)...
people contented from within, whose lives were in pretty constant balance and harmony with the rest of creation. Happy people.

I can't go into more now, but there is more to this answer.
Thank you for making me think harder by such a seemingly simple question.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:20:47 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Question OT?
Message:
People cannot enjoy life without K Sandy? And are premies truly happy?

How many happy premies do you know that are that are truly well adjusted and 'mature' people?

Why the master teaches premies to feel better than other people, to see themselves as being special than the rest of the people without K?

I think premies are in a way pathetic people. Needy, fearful, robotic people who settle for a few simplistic answers given by s person as the asnwer to their unhappiness. Premies began to enjoy BEING CULT MEMEBRS. tHE SMILE, THE FEELING SPECIAL, AND THE WHOLE CAP....

Just because you say that is night when the sun is shinning it wont make it a night.

Outside 'maharaji's world', having left the cult I have meet new people and to be honest, they are much better off without a guru. They are happy, content people who accept life in its own terms without a need of imaginary answers or ego trips as premies have.

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:25:22 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: your lousy analogies...
Message:
Take your stud farm ejaculator, strap it on the Filament's space tube and blow hard. Hopefully, both of you gas bags would burst.
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 07:05:07 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: OMG! What a laugh!
Message:
Thanks gerry. Haven't had a good laugh all day until now!
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:30:00 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: so that means you are into the big bang theory?
Message:
I thought my analogies were quite apropos.
And I don't fold because of grumblings and nastiness.
So be that way.
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 23:46:59 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: well it all depends on whom I'm banging ::))
Message:
And I don't fold because of grumblings and nastiness.

I thought gerry's post was more humourous than it was nasty, but I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

Here's a question for you though. What will it take...that is, for you to fold?

No intimidation intended, just an honest question.
Can I get an honest answer?

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 16:53:21 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Yeah, I asked Charanand some things about m. and
Message:
he said [in an upset tone], 'I don't discuss Maharaji's private life. Maharaji's personal affairs are nobody else's business.'

As it turns out, whoa!!! Who woulda thunk it, huh?!!

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 18:01:26 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: such
Subject: I don't have a problem w/ Maharaji having privacy
Message:
in his personal life, but when it impacts directly upon the private lives of others, that's where I, civilized society, the law, and common decency draw the line. N'est pas?
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 17:53:02 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: But which ''privacies'' Sandy?
Message:
Sandy,

Which privacies are acceptable?

The privacy to purchase a $7 million yacht and not tell the donors? The privacy to sexually use his followers? I could go on ad naseaum, but I can't think of any secret, private thing, short of his having an intimate life with his wife and a living as a family man, without the luxury provided by his ''servants,'' because he's proven again and again he doesn't deserve it. If he wants luxury he has the privacy to get a job to earn the money to buy stuff for himself.

Secrets a/k/a privacy are the poison of dysfunctional families. The Maharajism cult is a huge dysfunctional ''family.'' He's no master--he doesn't even qualify to be a certified teacher! No Sandy, we don't need masters. There were some so-called benevolent ''slave owners'' in this country, but the African American slaves still wanted, craved, desired, and suffered for their freedom from masters. I also don't believe in enlightened souls anymore, either.

I think that not having a master is inherent in human nature. I believe all religions through the ages have built false belief systems in us which have served no purpose other than to make life unhappy--especially the mainstream Christian-Judeo religions. Sandy, if I sound angry, it's not toward you. I'm quite angry at m today, though...I want to make that clear.

Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:28:32 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia
Message:
Cynthia,

My idea of a Master is like a person who wants to learn carpentry going to a master carpenter to learn wood from him. Apprentice, Journeyman, Master. Badda bing. That's why I went to Maharaji in 1978 to receive Knowledge. I thought he would teach me how to master whatever it was he taught, self-mastery, Knowledge of God within. 'I want you to have the same experience I am having', he said. I did not know how it would turn out when I went to Maharaji, but that was my original intention. The extra juice to this education was that I thought I was going to the feet of God Himself in person (as advertised) to fulfill my experience as a human being and then help him bring it to others (service?). That was what I thought it was, with no clue about all the intrigues and stuff posted here on this site. Many people call me crazy for compromising my personal scene by allying myself with some exers over what I think is a valid point. It would be so easy (on the outside) to ignore you guys and just practice Knowledge, go to programs and raise my family and so on. I am not going to pretend that I have all my shit together...as a matter of fact, I am going through major transitions on all levels right now, and I am not here to proclaim or defend or apologize or rationalize anything. I don't know why I am in this situation of seeing both sides and feeling empathy for both sides.

In the Bible, Jesus said to be hot or cold, because if you are just luke warm he would spit you out. I respect the conviction of premies and ex-premies alike for at least taking a position and sticking to it based on personal experience and feelings, whereas I am trying to be more quiet now, being in the middle and not committed to either side. In a way, I envy both committed premies and ex-premies for their committment. Some have told me that it's OK to be in the middle, but I am uncomfortable with it at this point. Something will give in due time. I cannot push the river.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 02:32:52 (GMT)
From: geeerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: you poor, poor fucker.
Message:
sandy, re this stuff and the rest of the shit you posted to day: (and I'm not talking about your explaining your personal transition here)

You've reached a new nadir in fucked up thinking for this forum. If I had all your religious, superstitious, mumbo-jumbo junk spinning around in my head, I'd be nuts, too. OK, more nuts, then.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:10:48 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I agree with you about 'which privacies'! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:08:32 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: No matter how 1 nurses a grudge,it will never heal
Message:
Dear Cynthia:

I have found that no matter how one 'nurses a grudge', it will never heal.

So, I finally had to deal with that stored-up anger and the bitterness of betrayal[s], the sacrifices, the many years, etc.

Unloaded the burden of that anger, pain, and sorrow I was carrying around within myself. Then some forgiveness, but with insistence upon full disclosure and accountability.

Then, gradually feeling better. Focussing on positives in life.

Humour has definitely helped in that process, too.
Without levity, no levitation of one's spirit/well-being.

Best wishes, and

Peace and lentils,

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 01:39:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: such
Subject: No matter how 1 nurses a grudge,it will never heal
Message:
dear mr peas and lentils, tell your banana to point that thing at your ownself.

hint

.
.
.
.
.

yes you have a good philosophy here. use it.

.
.
.
.
..
.
do I have to spell it out?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
J-A-M-E-S H-E-L-L-E-R

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:00:56 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: No matter how 1 nurses a grudge,it will never heal
Message:
I'm not really nursing a grudge. I am releasing anger as it comes and that's healthy. Yesterday I was very angry at m and that's what was reflected in my posts.

Yet, I understand that grudges mostly block healing rather than helping. But healthy releases of anger are okay.

I just try not to take it out on others here, because everyone is at their own state of understanding and stage of healing and exiting the cult.

There is a lot to be angry about, though, I must admit.

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 19:35:45 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hey this is the place to do it
Message:
Vent away, I say! I noticed your 'pique' yesterday, Cynthia, and I actually, well, enjoyed it. I guess that makes me a hyena or a jackal, one of Such's sub-humans. I hope he never gets into a position of power. We all be in for the Banana Inquisition, I'm afraid.
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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 08:11:09 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Useful for All: including me, him, you too... (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 02:15:53 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: N'est-ce pas! C'est la verite... [sans accent] (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 14:52:01 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: If...and a question
Message:
If Maharaji had not been presented to me as the superior power in person by premies, mahatmas, DLM (at the time) print and video media, songs and traditions, and by he himself in his satsangs, I would not have dropped what I was doing and followed him. I was at a stage of seeking the Master of the time if there was one to seek, not just another meditation technique or teacher. After all, I had taken a vow to Jesus Christ in good faith and had no intention of taking any steps backward. Therefore, the only person I would have left for would have been someone current and very connected.

If Jesus had been on his donkey on Palm Sunday and a little child ran in His path and got accidentally trampled by the donkey and the throngs of people, I don't think He would have dismissed it as something He had to deny or hide. I think He'd have gotten off His donkey and either healed the kid or brought him back to life. I really don't think He would have just switched donkeys and kept going.

Here is the question: How can Arti be sung to Maharaji, and darshan be happening and have the word of it spread all over the planet, and still have the Q & A on the EV site say that he never said he was God? Is this some sort of technicality or something?
Was everyone there supposed to be under a vow of secrecy? The discrepencies are getting blatant now, even to me. And for so long I have held back, thinking, 'Shit, if he is God, I don't want to rat him out.' Fact is, I just don't think that God would let one of his personal representatives hurt the children of his devotees and repeatedly get away with it without stopping it. For a long time I had given him the benefit of the doubt, thinking that perhaps he really did not have a full picture of what was happening at the time. But as I see how it is being 'handled' 20 some-odd years later, I just don't feel that love he talks so much about coming to the injured parties.

I think anyone who is getting laid regularly, who has the best smoke and drink at his disposal, has devoted servants working for nothing or little taking care of his entire physical plane activities, who has starry-eyed devotees all over the world ready to do anything for him, can talk of God and love and inner peace without any trouble, and even transmit some of his personal re-reflected charisma to his follwers who get addicted to basking in the glow, like groupies. It is a paradox that someone with such a worldly life still goes for God at all, so perhaps that is part of his unspoken message.

A famous bank robber was asked once why he robbed banks. His answer was 'because that's where the money is!' So Maharaji immerses himself in the world and in worldly things 'because that's where the people are!', I can deal with that. But it seems that the golden lotus which is not supposed to touch the dirty water and remain above it has gotten some sewage on a few petal tips. That is my problem with the thing.

Apologies seem to be going out of style. Saying one is sorry becomes a cause of litigation and not reconciliation anymore. This pains me, that people screw over other people and then consult with their attorneys before issuing an apology or statement. To me, forgiveness is an essential part of life which seems to be getting passed over, as if the 'new' new covenant is 'just keep the tape rolling and don't worry about that person you just ran over.' Call me a savage, a throw-back, but I am still nostalgic for hearing the sweet sounds of a contrite heart, and hope to be the steward of one myself.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 09:01:23 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: you're getting it, finally. i have been telling
Message:
you from day one that you have it in you to be a better man than he is. You have it in you to be a master where he doesn't.

I found it a balm upon my soul to turn back to Jesus for a goodly number of the years I was repelled by EV and big M before I declared myself here.

Now, as masters go, Jesus is still untarnished. If you turned to him once, turn to him again. It'll do you far more good than the creep from Hardwar.

Oh--and accept no middlemen. I mean NONE. deal one to one with Him.

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:40:08 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: He IS FAKE Dandy, yes. nt
Message:
aha
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 06:41:22 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: sandy
Subject: sandy nt
Message:
s
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 00:53:35 (GMT)
From: bill-stop making so
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: many threads you fuck head,,,,,,nt
Message:
sdfh
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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 18:58:07 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sandy and bill
Subject: so many threads - but this one is Sandy's outing
Message:
... or at least it sounds like Sandy's finally put two and two together without making twenty-two.

Here's Sandy's question. A good 'un, IMO:

Here is the question: How can Arti be sung to Maharaji, and darshan be happening and have the word of it spread all over the planet, and still have the Q and A on the EV site say that he never said he was God? Is this some sort of technicality or something?

Was everyone there supposed to be under a vow of secrecy? The discrepencies are getting blatant now, even to me. And for so long I have held back, thinking, 'Shit, if he is God, I don't want to rat him out.'

Fact is, I just don't think that God would let one of his personal representatives hurt the children of his devotees and repeatedly get away with it without stopping it. For a long time I had given him the benefit of the doubt, thinking that perhaps he really did not have a full picture of what was happening at the time.

But as I seem how it is being 'handled' 20 some-odd years later, I just don't feel that love he talks so much about coming to the injured parties.

.
.
.
Thanks for thinking out loud there, and for saying it so clearly, Sandy. No wonder we premies were told to 'leave no room for doubt in your mind' - the whole trip was so riddled with holes that even the slightest doubt was bound to result in the (eventual) departure of those who disobeyed instructions and reclaimed their ability to think for themselves.

The fact that it can take some of us many, many years to wake up to the transparency of what's really going on in EV and with Mr Rawat says much for the perniciousness of his attempts at indoctrination.

The dream of finding your Saviour has been changed forever, Sandy. Not every self-proclaimed Messiah who (for whatever reasons) tries to convince others that he/she's the one everybody's looking for should be beleived.

And that's a big lesson in itself.

You're beginning to recognise that wound in your psyche, Sandy (at least that's how it seems to me).

But it can heal, if you apply a liberal dose of honesty to your self-evaluation, without indulging in an overdose of self-pity/self-disgust.

You (if anyone) should be able to make it - and here I think we should all spare a thought for those 'brothers and sisters' who didn't make it, and thought the betrayal of their trust could only be dealt with by either:

(a) running back to the fold and pretending their doubts never existed; or

(b) ... well, it may not have been the only alternative, but some premies took the ultimate decision (i.e. their own life) when faced with the magnitude of how they had let themselves be deceived.


Personally, Sandy, I think you saw through the Maha long ago, but for some reason (and I hope someday you can tell us why) you felt you had to stick with him.

Sounds like you've finally reached the point of no return.

Best of the best to you,

Chris

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:53:29 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: cq
Message:
cq,

I have almost no one in this world to share what I am feeling without some sort of advertisement from them to think how they think as a fee for listening. From my wife, fuggedaboudit. She thinks I am brainwashed and backslidden for even paying any attention to this site and questioning anything about Maharaji. Other premies? There are a few I can talk to, but basically what I get is the same thing my wife gives me, but more polite and mannered. From folks who don't know shit from shinola about Maharaji, I cannot talk to them about this for obvious reasons. And from the ex-site, I do get alot of shit, but I also get some fair-minded conversation from a few who give me the space to clear a bit.
For this I am grateful, although I have never said so until now.
I need to hear my own thoughts, my own God inside me, and get away (at least in covnersation) from everyone else for a bit.

When the day comes and I meet my Maker, I don't want to be confused about who I am devoted to and what I love, not even in theory. I am a pretty simple guy, a do-gooder and a straight up friend who just happened to be born at a time of great spiritual upheaval. So I looked for the end of the rainbow and thought it was at Maharaji's feet, like many others. I cannot forget or erase what I have learned here, and what I have learned here has shaken my faith in him, not because of my weakness as I have been told by some, but by his own and his assistants' own actions. I have been owning something here that doesn't feel like it belongs to me. I need to step aside and be quiet for a spell, and set down this load for a bit. Sometimes answers come easier when I stop repeating the questions over and over again. I will not be posting here as much but I will be looking in.

Sandy

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Date: Mon, May 07, 2001 at 02:38:27 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You know?
Message:
It makes me feel so, so good to see your present reasoning. I am happy for you!

Keep thinking. 'The truth will make you free' the saying goes.

Love,

SB

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Date: Fri, May 04, 2001 at 18:29:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: It's two-way, you know ...
Message:

Sandy, the less we see each other as taking sides on these issues, the greater the chance that some real sharing of thoughts, ideas - and on a good day, even feelings - can happen.

But it's the same old story. Like religion and politics polarizing people until the inevitable happens - i.e. no real dialogue, only a spouting of opposing allegiances across the floor.

It's interesting to question why why people lose their faith in/allegiance to any particular group, be it a political party, a faith, a football team ... whatever.

The crux must be when they discover that the professed ideals of the group are in reality totally at odds with their public behaviour, i.e. one thing is said while another is done.

Why waste energy trying to defend such a group? Their stated ideals may be one thing, but their actual behaviour is quite another.

To be true to the original vision, it's then necessary (to be true to oneself) to say 'this isn't what I signed up for' and then to quit.


That's how I see it, Sandy, and if you think that means I'm trying to tell you to see it in the same way - well, ...I'd far rather you'd point out any flaws in the argument, as it happens.

If the logic is flawed, it doesn't matter how many people agree with you.

Enjoy your sabbatical,

Chris

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Date: Thurs, May 03, 2001 at 21:36:36 (GMT)
From: bill-I love you cq but
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: you are wildly optomistic:) -watch, in a week,..nt
Message:
asdf
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 16:35:29 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sought a Yogananda; got Lotus Robber Sewage! (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, May 02, 2001 at 15:31:35 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: If...and a question
Message:
Sandy:

'But it seems that the golden lotus which is not supposed to touch the dirty water and remain above it has gotten some sewage on a few petal tips. That is my problem with the thing.'

Well, I appreciate the ironic imagery but he's not a dirtly golden lotus; he's a weed toward the bottom of the pile. That's the truth of it.

--Scott

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