Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 22:15:37 (GMT)
From: Apr 15, 2001 To: Apr 25, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Jorge -:- Maharaji and Judaism? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:12:32 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Maharaji and Judaism? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 06:08:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jorge -:- Thank Joey, very interesting. nt -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:27:12 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- A frisson of danger -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:25:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jorge -:- A frisson of danger -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 03:08:58 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Maharaji and Mohammed -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 02:13:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- To the ice cream guys- Bin and Jerry ::)) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 06:28:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- This is my recollection -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 07:49:36 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Maharaji and Judaism? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:17:22 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- Yes and No. -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:24:49 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Yes and No. -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 06:59:31 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Ooh my, you need to look again -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:37:57 (GMT)
__ __ Jorge -:- What the hell are you talking about? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- you're the one that opened the can of worms -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:30:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jorge -:- you're the one that opened the can of worms -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 03:04:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- you're the one that opened the can of worms -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:42:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jorge -:- What can of worms? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:44:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Am very relaxed thanks -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:59:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, Bill, enough of this 'yeshua' nonsense -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:14:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- You buying? I'm low on funds after the big Easter -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:44:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Y not just convert to Judaism? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:55:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Couldnt he have just twisted his ankle for my sins -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:40:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Very funny, Bill, but I'm not here right now -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:50:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jorge -:- 'There was a war, we won, let's eat.' nt -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 03:10:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Well, I just HAD to know what his mom called him. -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:09:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- No, no,no... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 21:27:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- bada boom -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:22:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jorge -:- Well, I just HAD to know what his mom called him. -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:27:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Well, I just HAD to know what his mom called him. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:26:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jorge -:- Actually it's not my first thread -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 13:50:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Actually it's not my first thread -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:45:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jackie Mason -:- Mama youse to call out from the ghetto: Yo Shiva -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:53:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- What about the Baal Shem Tov and -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:18:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jorge -:- Should we go to a 'Religions Forum'? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:44:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Should we go to a 'Religions Forum'? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 21:30:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mark -:- Should we go to a 'Religions Forum'? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:09:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Should we go to a 'Religions Forum'? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:57:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Should we go to a 'Religions/ET Forum'? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:10:07 (GMT)

salam -:- janet and Yuri. Amaroo latitude & langitude -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 15:55:16 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Crash the spaceship -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:06:35 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Better have you're para ready -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:37:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ slam -:- Birds eye view of the Target -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:12:44 (GMT)

Brian -:- A Statement of Lack of Faith - EPO to EV/Rawat -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:36:54 (GMT)
__ cq -:- and Jagdeo's still at large representing EV? (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:26:40 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Right on the nose Brian. (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:39:51 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Right on, I agree completely (or just about) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:18:08 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- What ABOUT the US/ Chinese 'apology'? (OT) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:32:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- You missed my point.... -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:35:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ulf -:- What ABOUT the US/ Chinese 'apology'? (OT) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Really, ULF? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:07:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Really, ULF? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:21:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Really, ULF? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:25:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Really, ULF? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kaj -:- international airspace? (OT) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:59:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- remember this about eastern diplomacy: -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 03:17:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Eastern Diplomacy (OT) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:59:49 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- About this matter -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:58:38 (GMT)
__ __ ET -:- We were at Millenium Sandy! -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:50:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- So is this your invisible friend, Bill? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 05:37:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- My invisible freinds are typeing on the forum...nt -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:38:49 (GMT)
__ __ Lesley -:- Sorry, Sandy, that's changed too -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:07:52 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Rawat's non-step towards change -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 16:54:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- So in other words... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:26:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- What's wrong with option D)? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:10:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're dreaming as usual, Sandy -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:55:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian -:- They are separate issues -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:11:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Chuck Sprague -:- THANK YOU! You are so right , M. teaches nothing -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:48:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Just excellent, Brian. Thanks - a must read. NT -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:51:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Don't forget the suicides -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:17:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Distinguishing the Issues... -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:30:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Public apology - what venue? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:23:38 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- A Statement of Lack of Faith - EPO to EV/Rawat -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:32:29 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- justice can only be demanded by the victims -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:01:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- According to previous posts -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:15:37 (GMT)

JHB -:- Evidence that M runs EV/DLM -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:34:39 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- I can mention the several organizers conferences -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 07:59:20 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- where's that video with the pie chart? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:10:48 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- I can mention the several organizers conferences -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 08:58:48 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Who appointed Dettmers and Donner? -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:49:52 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda Smart -:- but.. but!! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:42:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You are getting a little nutty with this Jim -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:27:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You must mean 'amount and number' (and I'M Jim) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:42:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- You must mean 'amount and number' -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:54:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- execuse me. how many Jims are here?--nt -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:03:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ michael donner -:- but.. but!! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:05:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill--Valerio is the one -:- that arranges the aircraft purchase prices......nt -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:03:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ zelda -:- but- just typing out loud -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:11:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ michael donner -:- valario -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:50:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- valario's credentials -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 16:30:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Name taken -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The First Know It All -:- Don't swipe my moniker, dude or dudette -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:28:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is Valerio [Valario?] boung by a licensing regime? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:20:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Valerio -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 06:43:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ michael donner -:- Valerio -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:43:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Valerio -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:38:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Mercedes, extended tax deadline OT -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 15:01:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- True Story re taxes -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:58:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Also, there's always the good old Form 4868! OT/nt -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 15:14:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- Also, there's always the good old Form 4868! OT/ -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:40:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- My sympathy, Mercedes! (ot) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ zelda -:- right -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 05:00:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Welcome back, Mike. Straight from horse's mouth -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:17:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's 'imply', Zelda (agree with all, btw) [nt] -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:46:44 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Proof that he sacks and directs instructors -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:24:14 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- the name change document is here on epo -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 22:55:01 (GMT)

Sandy -:- Statements of Faith -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:24:29 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Statements of Faith -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:10:11 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- It IS scientific and here's why -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:34:46 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Aren't you forgetting something, Dave? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:35:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Benefit, shmezzifit -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 01:19:58 (GMT)
__ Katie H -:- Statements of Faith - you must qualify this~! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- I agree -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:52:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie H -:- Thanks, G - very well said (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:26:34 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Quit picking on Sandy -- sheesh, double sheesh! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:09:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Oh, go argue with Sandy and Such, Jim! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:11:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can't. I have to wash my hair (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:16:19 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Faith in what? Why do we need faith? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:14:47 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- The same person who wrote Corinthians XIII also -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:19:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ such -:- went 2 EasterParty:bit off a choco-bunny's head(ot -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 02:04:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- hey lil'ol swami -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:22:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ suchabanana -:- My beetle mate! Sorry,neglected blessed tariqa... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:50:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Yo Arjuna, listen up -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:44:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Now I regret posting that because I do not see it -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:28:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Waht the hell are you talking about? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:30:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Two things I never argue about: religion and wine -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:39:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Whatever float your boat, Pat (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:42:45 (GMT)
__ sean -:- Statements of Faith -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:51:31 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- So what ? The sky is blue ..... everyone -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:23:46 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- To Bin Liner and Janet...in my own words. -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Maharaji's apology to Abi? Not quite -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Maharaji's apology to Abi? Not quite -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:02:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Seek and you shall find, oh Sandy (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:07:00 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Statements of Faith -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:10:32 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Statements of Faith -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:48:02 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Statements of Faith -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:57:17 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Statements of Faith -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:55:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- YOU ARE A COMPLETE DUNDERHEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:00:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Sticks and stones, you know ther rest...(nt) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:04:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- speak my name and I come. guess i gotta, now. -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:23:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- ****BEST OF FORUM Janet! You amaze me n/t -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:11:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- faith sucks -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:35:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ET (hi sandy!) -:- got her number? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:16:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Phone home and leave earth girls alone (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:19:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ET (have faith in us) -:- we ET's troll the trailer parks and beam up ladies -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:58:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Am lost. -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:34:57 (GMT)

Billy -:- The death of myths -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:56:07 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- The death of myths -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 21:53:25 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- The death of myths -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:15:17 (GMT)
__ Roy -:- The death of myths -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:23:03 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- 100% Agree -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:17:06 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Our Cult? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:19:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Our Cult? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 18:07:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- you mean our ex-cult?----------nt -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ berni -:- 100% Agree -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:06:13 (GMT)
__ Katie Darling -:- Yo Billy, great post! -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:37:03 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- excellent post. will we see you again here? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:33:00 (GMT)

Jim -:- What do premies really want? -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 17:31:18 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- They want to feel special... -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:26:40 (GMT)
__ __ Richard -:- They want to feel special... plus item #3 - guilt. -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 00:20:22 (GMT)
__ Will -:- Once hoping m would disappear -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:32:05 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Premies want M to change or get rid of EV -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:13:21 (GMT)
__ __ kev -:- Premies want M to change or get rid of EV -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:59:03 (GMT)
__ __ Mr. Mind -:- Premies want M to change or get rid of EV -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave (Head Librarian) -:- Hang on a mo' -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:53:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Here, read this one - it's oh so funny -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 18:29:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Hey, I want to meet the power behind the throne! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:11:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I understand - he's trying to be Mao! -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:42:37 (GMT)

PatC -:- Sunday Sermon: ''Oh, how the mighty have fallen'' -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 08:32:12 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, EV is Maharaji -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:39:11 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- '' Oh ,how the fallen have a mighty .... -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:37:03 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Sunday Sermon: ''Oh, how the mighty have fallen'' -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:52:01 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- Sunday Sermon: ''Oh, how the mighty have fallen'' -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:16:00 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- You hit the nail on the head, Pat! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 13:55:51 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Amen, brother!!! (nt) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 13:44:19 (GMT)

Loaf -:- Having no past -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:48:28 (GMT)
__ Katie Darling -:- Jumping in the void (or plenum) -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:41:13 (GMT)
__ __ Loaf -:- whats a plenum.. and do I have one ? (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 07:15:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- whats a plenum.. and do I have one ? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 09:08:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mark -:- whats a plenum.. and do I have one ? -:- Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 16:09:37 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Great post, Loaf. I am reclaiming my past on FV -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:16:21 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- oooh I just realised something else ! -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:38:52 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- focusing on you own issues -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:49:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Its heartbreaking -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 10:40:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- It is heartbreaking -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:07:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Loaf -:- Thanks helen (nt) and a x -:- Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:25:27 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:12:32 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji and Judaism?
Message:
Hello all:

When relatives would take me to see videos, I always wondered why M made refences to many religions, but excluded Judaism?

Of course, at the time I really didn't know what the real agenda was. Now, better informed, I understand why he wouldn't want to mention it: Judaism does not accept god-men.

I am sure I'm not the only one who has noticed this. Any comments?

Regards,
Jorge Kreimer
Denied knowledge twice. Phew! That was close!

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 06:08:27 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Maharaji and Judaism?
Message:
Hi Jorge,

While m himself has hardly made any references to Judaism, and I agree with the general consensus in this thread that it's really a result of his ignorance on the subject, the following recollections do come to mind.
In the early 70's there was a festival at Alexander's Palace in London and decorating the hall there were paintings depicting 'perfect masters' of the various religions, I guess to make the point that m was the perfect master of OUR time. Representing Judaism was a painting of either Abraham or Moses, or there might even have been paintings of both.
Also in the early years, a few of the mahatmas used to quote this one passage from the Old Testament in their repertoire of various scriptural quotes to drive home the point that 'knowledge' was at the base of all religions. The passage was from Genesis, when Jacob after wrestling with the angel, declares: ' For I have seen God face to face, and my soul has been preseved.' At least, that's how they used to say it.
But as for m himself, the only reference to anything Jewish that I can remember him making ,came at Long Beach 96 in his final address, when he wished everyone a merry Christmas and a happy Hannukah....I guess because, well you know... he's such a sweet guy:)

What I find interesting in all this is that while Jews make up only 2% of the overall population, they have made up between 20-25% of m's premie population. (Mind you, Jews make up a disproptionate high number in many eastern based cults. Also, 25% of all practicing Buddhists in America are Jewish AND....did you know that the largest Passover Seder in the world is held not in Tel Aviv or New York, or Miami...but in Katmandu, Nepal where approx 1300 Jews who are travelling the east in search of a spiritual buzz get together for a seder that's organized with the assistance of the Israeli gov't...they probably fly in the matzoh and stuff like that.)

In any case, I'm sure m has benefitted greatly in financial terms from the disproportionate high number of Jews in his cult. In fact , in the early years there was one premie in Montreal who came from one of the wealthiest Jewish families in the world-the Bronfmans of Seagrams fame. I just can't help but wonder if he sent in a few cases of Crown Royal along with the cash:)

Well that's it for my thoughts and recollections on the subject, Jorge. BTW, I'm glad to hear that you were turned down for k twice.
I'm sure you can now look at it this way...they did you a mitzvah! ::))

Take care and,

Shalom Amigo!:)

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:27:12 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Thank Joey, very interesting. nt
Message:
c
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:25:02 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: A frisson of danger
Message:
Hi Jorge, well spotted , that one never occurred to me ,but the reasons why Rawat excluded Judaism have been set out to my satisfaction below .

What I did use to wonder about sometimes back in the High Church days , was that line in the arti song 'bible , gita , the koran etc .

Whilst he was forever guffing off about JC , Blueboy , Rama et.al , there was never a mention of Mahomet .

Made me wonder whether or not the prophet was really a perf. master & if not why was his book mentioned in arti .

The intellectual climate of the times being as they were ,made this a difficult subject for discussion , one which I could only bring up with a few close friends ; & they just took the piss .

Well that was then , when our plain old Mr. Rawat was actually God in human form ,who looking forward omnisciently to now ,saw that a very boring novelist would cost the British taxpayer £1m+
p.a in protection against being murdered by bearded fanatics .

& that's just for writing a book , not for getting up in public & spooling on for hours implying that you're even better .

The implications !

I think Mr. Rawat is just being modest when he denies he was God .

Pat Dorrity

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 03:08:58 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: A frisson of danger
Message:
It would seem to be bad politics for Rawat to mention Judaism or Islam since the views of divinity in both these religions are abstract and do not have good avatar material for him.

It makes sense.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 02:13:55 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Maharaji and Mohammed
Message:
Well, let me ask you this, Bin? How many Muslim followers do you think Maharaji started out with in India? Muslims and Hindus hate each other. It would be pretty strange for Maharaji to be glorifying The Messenger in his satsang to a crowd that would like to see Muslims wiped off the face of the planet. And even here in the west, it's not as if there's a large faction of Muslims that turned onto Maharaji. Why would he even think to talk about Mohammed? It wouldn't make sense. People would look at each other with slightly perplexed looks if he did.
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 06:28:58 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Bin Liner +Jerry
Subject: To the ice cream guys- Bin and Jerry ::))
Message:

M often quotes from Kabir who is well known for having followers from both Hindus and Muslims.
And I can remember at least one reference to Mohammed in the early or mid 90's where m was telling the story of Mohammed bowing down to God facing the west. When someone asks him why isn't he facing the east, Mohammed answers 'because God is everywhere.'
I really think that mosts of m's references have been to Buddha, Krishna, Jesus and guys like Kabir, because that's all he really knows and has very little interest in learning anything else.
Nothing anti- semitic like Mark said, or anti- muslim for that matter. IMO, m is just anti- human.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 07:49:36 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: sharkdc@aol.com
To: everyone
Subject: This is my recollection
Message:
I remember M being compared to every major religious leader that was considered to be a prophet, incarnation or manifestation of God.

Including Mohammed, Moses, the Blue Boy, Jesus Christ (superstar), Buddha ect. The standard party line was that in every age God incarnates himself into a man who is the Perfect Master of that era, and the Perfect Master wipes out ignorance, darkness and establishes World Peace. (and makes tidy profit in the process) Then after a couple of thousand years the world starts to go to seed again, he returns to earth and reinacts this Cosmic drama.

It's a never ending cycle supposedly.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:17:22 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Maharaji and Judaism?
Message:
He grew up in a Hindu environment, went to a Catholic school, and has lived the rest of his life surrounded by fawning devotees. I doubt if he knows anything about Judaism.

John.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:24:49 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Yes and No.
Message:
Recently, my sister(a non-theistic semi practicing NY Jew), who is always on the lookout for the bizarre and absurd, sent me info from the Lubiviche Hasidism (based in Brooklyn,they have Chabad Houses-outreach centers-around the country). They have now declared that the Rebbe, their leader, (dead now for about 4 years) is indeed the Messiah. He remains in the world completely intact in his body, only we can't see him until he decides to reveal himself and usher in the new age(he did leave some Holy Water behind which is doled out to followers. Needless to say there are numerous quotes, biblical references, etc. proving why he is the Messiah. There's nothing like the ultra- orthodox and Hasidim to annoy and dismay liberal and secular Jews.

Paul

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 06:59:31 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: Yes and No.
Message:
Paul:

There's a technical difference between 'god-man' and 'messiah,' but very little practical difference. Essentially it's the same gig.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:37:57 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Ooh my, you need to look again
Message:
Hi Jorge, it IS an interesting subject you bring up.
However, take another look:)

How about SAMUEL just for starters?
He thought his every thought was god's! his every notion and
compulsion and idea was just god channeling through him.

Every madman in that book blabbing on like SOMEHOW THEY WERE
SPEAKING AS GOD. Take another look. The Jews are crippled by thinking that all the sentences muttered by many know-it-alls
is god directly speaking to them.
What a disaster that has been for them.
And a disaster for christians also.
Why the hell is paul's two cents considered god speaking?
I know many christians that say 'and god said this' and they are not talking about what the 'son of god' said! They are talking about what ANYBODY in that book said! Old OR new testament.

I have asked them, why in the world did jesus(yeshua) have to
go through anything? When anybody who managed to get thier writings into that book is considered a direct channel of god!

You cant find one book on earth with more 'god-men'.
And that is true aint it?
Jews are horribly burdened by the many 'god-men' whose blabber
is considered the actual words of 'god'.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:50:04 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: What the hell are you talking about?
Message:
and what's with the yeshua thing?
The only ones I know who use that term are christian missionaries trained to target jews.

Anyway, I believe my post was about M?

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:30:24 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: you're the one that opened the can of worms
Message:
no one else. So stick with it.
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 03:04:36 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: you're the one that opened the can of worms
Message:
and your point is....?
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:42:12 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: you're the one that opened the can of worms
Message:
eat them.
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:44:56 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: What can of worms?
Message:
I asked a question, that's all.

Relax, o.k.?

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:59:01 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Am very relaxed thanks
Message:
Well, at present am totally pissed off. Even I will stay away from myself.(now that is bad)

Cheers, don't worry about it.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:14:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Yeah, Bill, enough of this 'yeshua' nonsense
Message:
What irks me about your constant 'yeshua' correction is it somehow suggests that there's this incredibly accurate historical record that has this big blight on it, i.e. the mistaken name of Jesus. Give me a break, Bill. The whole story's so full of myth and fantasy, who gives a fuck about some small detail like a name which you're probably still wrong about, given all the time and distance.

Speaking of Jesus, isn't this his birthday or something? Drinks after work at T.G.I.F.'s?

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:44:16 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You buying? I'm low on funds after the big Easter
Message:
shopping binge. We have dozens of made in china easter bunny
thingees. Leg of lamb aint cheep. It is an easter tradition for some reason, 'lamb of god' issue?
The youngest boy had a 'leg of lamb' epiphany this easter.
I told him it was best to not think about your food.
Baaad idea to ponder at that age.

Whose mentioning flowers, easter clothes, feeding the wifes relatives,who dont know good alcohol inspired sarcasm when they
hear it, and all the pre-party work making the house look
like we really dont live like 7 pigs in a sty.

We do all this to honor a man whose name we dont even know!
It is a mindblower to me!

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:55:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Y not just convert to Judaism?
Message:
Bill,

I hear you. All that Easter shit sounds gruesome and unrewarding. Have you considered perhaps the benefits of being an Atheistic Smart-Ass Jew? Nothing to remember, nothing to forget. Spend YOUR money the way YOU really want to. Now THAT's religion!

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:40:35 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Couldnt he have just twisted his ankle for my sins
Message:
I mean really, other than posting and reading here, what else do I do wrong with my life?
I dont behave because I want to avoid hell, hell, if I wanted to go to hell all I have to do is go to a strip bar. Pay 10$ cover,
a beautiful nude woman dances inches away from my face, I cant touch her, she cant touch me, I cant touch myself, and I give her all my money.

I'm good, I dont even spank the kids, I find waving a gun
gets the same job done.

So, you claim to be an athiest huh? Seems to me you figure I didnt see that post where you told someone you
yes you Jim Heller, would PRAY for them!
I had to hit the back button to make sure it was your post.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:50:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Very funny, Bill, but I'm not here right now
Message:
I'm watching Ashely Judd in this nothing-happens flick, 'Ruby in Paradise'. God, she's almost as pretty as Laurie! [This post has been edited to protect its author]
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 03:10:53 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'There was a war, we won, let's eat.' nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:09:08 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Well, I just HAD to know what his mom called him.
Message:
Hi Jorge,
Turned out little Jesus was not called jesus by his mom!
When it was dinner time, she didnt lean out the back door and yell 'JESUS! JEEESUUUS! DINNERTIME!'.
If you were walking down the street, (or walking on water) and you saw him, and said 'Hey Jesus!', he wouldnt turn around because that is/was not his name.
It was YESHUA.

Doesnt really matter if missionaries got that right, most christians dont know his name.

Your post was a guess that maybe prem rawat(what HIS mom called him), didnt mention Judaism because they had an aversion to
god-men.

But, and maybe Jim could chime in here, Jews think Samuel (to mention my idea of the most insane godman in the bible) was channeling god.
Everything Samuel did and said was god speaking and doing.
Care to deny that?

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 21:27:02 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: No, no,no...
Message:
His mom leaned out the door and said 'Jesus, suppertime!' then when he didn't come, she said, 'For God's sake, jesus, get in here or this will be your LAST SUPPER!!'
Bada-bing!

BTW, do you really know strip clubs where the women are beautiful? They always seem to look really, really burned out, fried, and old to me. I dunno. Keep dreaming Bill!

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:22:50 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: bada boom
Message:
Got that strip joint comment from a joke book Helen!
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:27:46 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Well, I just HAD to know what his mom called him.
Message:
<Everything Samuel did and said was god speaking and doing.
Care to deny that?>>

Not that I believe in this stuff, but prophecy is quite a long way away from being the incarnation of god on earth, right?

Anyway, yeshua in hebrew means to save, or something like that. That's why I don't really buy it. It's too obvious a modern interpolation. Don't forget the Christian bible was written by greeks. Anyway, having a verb as a name is kind of silly and would have probably made a lots of people chuckle in ancient Judea.

Maybe his name was Yeshohua (a more common name) , but who knows? In the Talmud they called him Y'shu.

His mom probably called him: Jesus, Jesus, la comida esta servida!

But enough about this, aren't we in a Maharaji forum?

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:26:33 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Well, I just HAD to know what his mom called him.
Message:
Hi Jorge,
You got a pretty big thread here that you started!
I almost never get a thread going this long.
So congradulations on your first thread here, I would call it
quite successful:)

Give us another when you get in the mood.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 13:50:13 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Actually it's not my first thread
Message:
I posted here for the first time a couple of years ago. I was interested in doing a documentary on gurus and cult leaders called: 'Messiahs of the Twentieth Century'. I actually spoke to Marianne over the phone once. Anyway, unfortunately nothing happened with the show. Nobody showed any interest.

I posted again a few months ago about my family, some of which were, and some still are involved with Rawat. My father used to think he was god, untill he saw M abusing a premie he knew, then he totally lost his connection (as he calls it). I still have a couple of aunts who are heavilly into him, one of which really wanted me to get knowledge. She painted a beautyful picture of it. Anyway, I was rejected twice. I think because I didn't grovel enough (everyone else did), or perhaps I didn't watch enough videos. Soon afterwards, I found EPO. Anyway, if it wasn't for EPO, I probably would have kept asking for K.
I have that to thank you guys for.

Best regards,
Jorge

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:45:02 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Actually it's not my first thread
Message:
Well Jorge,
I think there is interest here for your messiah idea, but there are so many messiahs! From just this century.
And just in the usa. (if that is where you are from)
We do or at least did have links to a number of them.
Actually, ask sir david if he still has the link to the
list someone else made of all the messiah groups that they could
find. And that person rated them as well.
You can find Sir David here and also at the anything goes forum where he rules as webmaster.

I agree, lucky you made it here first instead of into the programming process of his lordship.
Did you get the techniques from the site yet?
We have them online for your viewing pleasure!

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:53:57 (GMT)
From: Jackie Mason
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Mama youse to call out from the ghetto: Yo Shiva
Message:
What do you think I am, chopped liver?
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:18:50 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: What about the Baal Shem Tov and
Message:
all the mystics of the Kabbalah? Rawat likes to hear about past masters who reinforce his own importance and there are plenty of Jewish mystics who had masters and disciples and secret knowledges. The only reason Rawat never mentions Judaism is that he knows nothing about it. (Actually, he is not a learned person in regard to any of the religious traditions of the world).
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:44:23 (GMT)
From: Jorge
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Should we go to a 'Religions Forum'?
Message:
I certainly did not mean to start a discussion on judaism or christianity.

Anyway, if rawat doesn't touch the topic because he is ignorant, fair enough. I thought there might be other reasons. After all he loves to talk about jesus and krishna, etc.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 21:30:52 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Should we go to a 'Religions Forum'?
Message:
You can believe Maharaji doesn't touch the topic because Judaism has a lot more commentary to it than Maharaji's little simplistic religion can handle. He's a mental midget.

Most rabbis could talk circles around M any day.

Helen AKA Little Yiddish Grandma AKA the Unitarian wanna be Jew

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:09:30 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Should we go to a 'Religions Forum'?
Message:
Jorge,

EVERYBODY who's anybody in the religion business will shoehorn Jesus (Jeshua,Sananda,whatever) into their system. He's great for business. Moses and Elijah for some reason are not officially saviors.

M is a Savior. Ergo, he distributes Jesus's knowledge and is a modern day Krishna . That's why he refers to them, and they are part of the standard devotional package. The Savior thing is always dependent on absolutes.

The Jewish thing is more tribal, relativistic,and egalitarian. M could not market himself properly in that format.

I mean there is a very real reason that M will not address his Warts and Pimples publicly, and invokes the dead heros as his equals. I mean could you imagine ;

' Hi , my name is Mr Rawat. I must admit that I have had severe personal and family dysfunction for over 25 years. Mea Culpa. But despite this , I have the knowledge of all knowledges that gives you perfect peace. Please humble your self to ME personally, accept me as your Master, who will take the reins of your life. You may not like or detest me, but you'll love my public speaking style.'

So I'd say he identifies himself with winners. Or at least dead myths that have aged well. It puffs up his rap. They call it name dropping. Then again , if what my wife Billy says below is true, M may have to invoke some new heros sooner than later.

But I don't think M is an anti-semite. I don't think he likes people per se, or himself, but he's no anti-semite. And if some Jewish Godmen we're assets to his human acquisition program, I'm sure they'd be included.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:57:40 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jorge
Subject: Should we go to a 'Religions Forum'?
Message:
Hi Jorge,

Something quite astounding about that so called spiritual teacher Rawat is that as Way mentioned he is remarkably ignorant about other religions and pathways.

I remember being quite shocked at a program once , when he stated arrogantly that he never finished any book he ever started because he finds them all pretty boring !!

His knowledge of anything scriptural or religious is only what he had handed down to him from listening to his father or Mahatmas discources. He very often makes embarassing misquotes from the bible. A famous one being that John the baptist wrote the gospel of John.

I think Way is right when he says Maha probably knows nothing of Judaism which is why he never refers to it. I can't recall the Mahatmas mentioning it either . Maybe they couldn't find a jewish master to compare Maharaji to as you indeed suggest.

Nice to have you here and welcome.

Hal

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:10:07 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Should we go to a 'Religions/ET Forum'?
Message:
Hi Hal, you make a better welcome wagon than I do.
I'll have to go back to posting at night when the threads are already well posted.
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 15:55:16 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: janet and Yuri. Amaroo latitude & langitude
Message:
Latitude (Degreeso and Minutes' ) 27 45 S [Decimal Degrees -27.76507]

Longitude (Degreeso and Minutes' ) 152 47 E [Decimal Degrees 152.78439]1/25/01 8:13:10 PM,

Now you now were to crash the spaceship.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:06:35 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Crash the spaceship
Message:
You crack me up salam! --f
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:37:02 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Better have you're para ready
Message:
glad you're enjoying the show.
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:12:44 (GMT)
From: slam
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Birds eye view of the Target
Message:
crash your ship here
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:36:54 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: A Statement of Lack of Faith - EPO to EV/Rawat
Message:
Abi posted:
My father met Maharaji alone yesterday at Amaroo for about 40min and spoke with him about the Jagdeo issue. Maharaji had only just read my father's letter the day before. He was very moved, very upset, almost to tears. They spoke father to father about this issue. Basically M said how sorry he was over and over again and that EV had to take care of it.

My father then met with Valerio who said that EV would seek to bring Jagdeo to justice, offer a public apology and see about dealing with the damage this has caused.

The value gained by Abi's father from his 40 minutes with Rawat aside, I have no reason to believe that this meeting indicates a sea-change in Maharaji's viewpoint or behavior.

I'm waiting to see what form this 'public apology' takes. My bet is that any public apology comes only from EV officials apologising for the past mistakes of past officials. I see no change here.

I'm also waiting to see what form 'dealing with the damage' takes. What do they think the damage is? That children were abused and have carried mental scars, or that Rawat and EV have suffered major PR embarrassment over the betrayed trust of premie parents and children? My bet is on the latter, and I see no change here either.

Rawat's sudden sensitivity to the 'Jagdeo issue' only came about after the number of his followers reading this site and this forum MADE him sensitive to it. Had Abi's father wanted 40 minutes of Rawat's time WITHOUT the public spotlight stretching out a red carpet to the throne, he would have been laughed at.

Maharaji now believes that EV should deal with the problem, and so they assured Abi's father that they will. I certainly see no change here.

What Maharaji believes determines what EV does. They are responsible for what happens as a result of his choices, and at the moment his choice is that they accept the resposibility for the 'damage' and deal with it.

EV is his personal shield against the consequences of his own decisions, and not a real organisation with its own decision-making process operating independent of Rawat's whims. I'm sure that their level of public guilt will only reflect Rawat's level of desired personal innocence.

Father-to-father, he can blubber all he wants. The real question is what he says when the relationship with his listeners is that of the Master-to-student relationship required of aspirants before they can receive his 'gift'.

This month, according to EV sources, thousands will have shelled out large sums of money to gather in Amaroo and listen to Maharaji's 'message' delivered personally. If he is at all serious about addressing the over-all trust issue underlying the REAL damage done to people, then he can use that venue to begin to demonstrate that he is willing to start being honest with people about his real nature, and to stop abusing their trust by dishing up more lies about being a special person entrusted by the Universe to be the sole imparter of common meditation techniques.

I'm betting that when those who trust his words next hear him speak, that he will choose to continue to abuse their trust by perpetuating the Master myth. In that case he will be choosing to continue to be the fraud he has personally chosen to be in the past.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:26:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: and Jagdeo's still at large representing EV? (nt)
Message:
sheesh
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:39:51 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Right on the nose Brian. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:18:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Right on, I agree completely (or just about)
Message:
I also see no change here, whatsoever. You really have to engage in wishful thinking to get to that, in my opinion.

Regarding a 'public apology,' take the latest US/Chinese situation as an example.

First, it will come from Elan Vital and not Maharaji. Second, it will accept no blame or responsibility whatsoever. It will say something like.

'It has come to are attention that there are allegations against......we are very conerned about this.....we have a policy against this and so does Maharaji....we are investigating and are just working our little legs off trying to get to the bottom of it.....the alleged perpetrator is no longer a part of Elan Vital....if anything bad did occur, we give our sympathy to any of the alleged victims.....PERIOD< PERIOD< PERIOD

True, Elan Vital is a shield for Maharaji, and his statement that Elan Vital MUST take care of it all and not HIM, is just outrageous, and actually makes things worse, if you ask me.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:32:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What ABOUT the US/ Chinese 'apology'? (OT)
Message:
Regarding a 'public apology,' take the latest US/Chinese situation as an example.

Example of what? It now seems pretty clear that the chinese pilot was buzzing the hell out of these guys and finally flew too close and hit them. They're in international airspace at the time and do indeed radio a bunch of 'Maydays' before their emergency landing. Do you take issue with any of this? What part? Don't you think the Chinese should be apologizing like crazy here for almost killing a bunch of foreigners, not to mention for lying (vis-a-vis the accident and the 'Maydays'), for unfairly intimidating the crew (sleep deprivation, threatening to prosecute when there was no basis at law for same) and for trying to extract this bullshit apology out of what was really turning into just another hostage situation?

Unless the crew are complete liars, that pilot only got what he asked for and the Americans are happy he didn't kill them in the process.

Your views?

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:35:35 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You missed my point....
Message:
Don't care to discuss the OT, Jim. I'm afraid I don't have time at the moment.

My point was that 'apologies' can be carefully worded to avoid taking responsbility or blame, and that it's likely that Elan Vital's lawyers will do the same. And, of course, it won't even COME from Maharaji.

One thing is obvious, though. George W. had to leave it to the adults to carefully craft the 'very sorry' letter to the Chinese, in the light of the problems he always has with the English language.

If you heard Harry Schearer yesterday on 'Le Show,' he did a parody of Dubya singing his 'very sorries' in a country and Western song. It was pretty funny.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:54:33 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What ABOUT the US/ Chinese 'apology'? (OT)
Message:
the way i have have being understanding this ,is that
the american plane was NOT in international airspace.
All the t.v and radios here have never pointed out
that the airspace was international

Ulf

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:07:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Really, ULF?
Message:
Here's a timeline from U.S.A. Today. Are they lying?:

Chronology of the China-U.S. spy plane standoff

A chronology of the spy plane crash and diplomatic maneuvering between the United States and China.

DAY 1 — Sunday, April 1

— A U.S. Navy EP-3E surveillance plane with a 21-man, 3-woman crew collides with a Chinese fighter jet sent to intercept it over the South China Sea, well outside China's 12-mile territorial sea and airspace. It makes an emergency landing at a military airfield on China's Hainan island.

— China says the plane's crew members are safe but reports the Chinese fighter crashed and its pilot is missing. Beijing blames the U.S. aircraft for the collision.

— Adm. Dennis Blair, commander in chief of the U.S. Pacific Command, says the collision was caused by a 'pattern of increasingly unsafe behavior' by China's military.

DAY 2 — Monday, April 2

— U.S. diplomats leave for Hainan hoping to meet with U.S. crew members.

— President Bush urges China to release the aircraft and let U.S. diplomats meet crew members. Says failure to do so would violate 'standard diplomatic practice.'

DAY 3 — Tuesday, April 3

— President Bush says China must release crew and plane. Secretary of State Colin Powell says crew is detained by China and that the United States has nothing to apologize for.

— U.S. diplomats meet with crew members and report they are fine.

DAY 4 — Wednesday, April 4

— Chinese President Jiang Zemin demands a U.S. apology.

— The Bush administration offers regrets but no apology.

DAY 5 — Thursday, April 5

— In Beijing, police detain several Chinese protesters outside U.S. Embassy.

— China says the U.S. crew members broke international law and will be kept for questioning, repeats demand for formal U.S. apology.

— U.S. diplomats give Chinese officials books, magazines and snacks for the crew members.

DAY 6 — Friday, April 6

— U.S. diplomats see crew members. Powell says they are in 'good health' and 'high spirits' and that diplomats may get to meet with them regularly.

— Both sides begin reviewing a draft letter intended to end the stalemate that would express regrets for the loss of life and entail an exchange of views on the collision.

DAY 7 — Saturday, April 7

— China's top foreign affairs official writes Powell to say statements of regret are inadequate and demand an apology.

— U.S. side says its position is unchanged.

DAY 8 — Sunday, April 8

— Talks continue on freeing crew. Bush sends letter expressing condolences to wife of missing Chinese fighter pilot.

DAY 9 — Monday, April 9

— President Bush cautions that 'diplomacy takes time' but warns China that relations could suffer if it doesn't release the crew.

DAY 10 — Tuesday, April 10

— China says Powell's expression of regret is a step in the right direction, repeats demand for apology.

— President Bush describes situation as a 'stalemate.'

DAY 11 — Wednesday, April 11

— United States and China reach agreement for crew's release.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:21:24 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Really, ULF?
Message:
I get your point
and it looks like, it was not international airspace

when i read your post , and that is new to me

Why was the papers here(in Skandinavian) not making a point of this.

I think it makes the whole story change.


Ulf

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:25:33 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Really, ULF?
Message:
You mean it WAS international airspace, right? As per the article?

Sure, it makes for a different picture. Why the press implied otherwise, I don't know.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:47:04 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Really, ULF?
Message:
Reading your paper , i will say that it was international
airspace.
But over here ,everybody i know , is thinking that
the plane was indeed , in china airspace
So we are all thinking , why did it take so long for that
apology.
Why are they so fucking proud
It have never(over here) been clearly said that
it was international airspace ?

All people here are thinking that it was china airspace
Ulf

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:59:44 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: international airspace? (OT)
Message:
It appears that whether the US spyplane really was in international airspace rather than in Chinese is under dispute.
Until now, the majority of the reports I have read suggest that the US plane was above Chinese territory. Of course the US denies that - but it does not turn it into a fact. I doubt that the truth will be easily known.

Nonetheless, be it either way, it was a spyplane, and I can't see that the US has any business spying on the Chinese, the more than the Chinese has the right to spy on the US.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 03:17:45 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Ulf and jim
Subject: remember this about eastern diplomacy:
Message:
we in the west are rugged individualists, self made successes, young in the ways of history. our cultures are only a couple of centuries old in world history. adolescents, realy. and like adolescents, we tend to b defensive, naive, simplistic, idealistic and subtlety is lost on us. we take things on the face of it, unaware of the undercurrents, past history and needs.
china is an ancient and 'inscrutable' civilization, thousands of years old. chinese diplomacy is subtle, and rooted in saving face and preserving the appearance of dignity, formality, honor and proper recognition. we are talkng of emperors and dynasties that were considered the embodiment of heaven to earth that went on for millennia at a time. the communist regime is only a fleck on the robes of history by comparison. you do not change the mind of a people that steeped in their own way.

the US is not averse to apologizing when they have indeed done something wrong and they know it. and they have their shifty side too, practicing plausible deniability like any crafty adolescent, scheming on how to con their parents with a believable story to cover for what they were actually up to. as grows the twig, so shapes the tree.

but you have two terrible different cultures here, oversensitive in radically different ways. the US views their mission as utterly justified, since US nuclear technology was stolen by chinese agents right out from under the noses of the labs and spirited back to china for implementation. the US feels responsible for letting that dangerous abiity get into the hands of the wrong people, and feels duty bound to follow up and try to find out where it went and to get it back, destroy it, or at least monitor it, for the sake of world safety. If they say they were in international airspace, outside the 12 mile boundary, they probably were, but remembering the teenage analgy, they could also be fudging or bluffing in the hope that the rest of the tale carries that detail without much examination.

Then you have China, who knows they have the secrets, knows what they are doing with them, and knows where they are. No way in hell are they gonna let the americans come in over their airspace and find what they are looking for, much less blow it up. If that means sending up a hotdog pilot who knows full well he may have to sacrifice himself in the sky to keep the americans from finding what they came for, then he will do it. so he scrambles, hazes them, but is very careful not to actually kill them. He gives them escalating degrees of peril, trying to deter them and give them the choice to turn back, and when he sees that it isnt going to be sufficient, he makes his ultimate decision, as prediscussed before he accepted the mission, and he disables the american plane to insure that it will have to land in chinese space where it can be intimately examined, without killing the americans in an act of war, and giving his own life for the glory of his career and the ancient land that sent him to defend it.

the chinese pilot's mission was a success. he accomplished exactly what he was asked to do. he will have a hero's burial and memory with the country.
the americans were handled exactly as the Chinese intended. They protected their secret, obtained more knowledge of the US spy technology from detaining the crippled US spy plane, didn't harm the american personnel, and get to play the injured, wronged party due an apology on the world stage, by portraying themselves as being invaded over their own airspace.

they know the truth and so does the US.

The critical thing in the entire episode is to continue to keep the chinese nuclear ability in check. the secondary thing is to keep the episode from touching off some kind of act of war or declared hardened stance, vis a vis china, that could lead to war. if assuaging their diplomatic egos with formal dioramas at court will soothe this over, so much the better.
the surveillance can continue.

if the US continues to assert that no apology is justified, this can needlessly escalate to open hostility. the dispute as to whther the collision took place in chinese space or international space can be used to either gracefully yeild or to create a bone of contention.

it is a well known technique of diplomacy to apologize even when one knows one is in the right, for the grace of it, in providing the opponent a way out. use of words such as 'perhaps' or aknowledging common and similar impulses to protect one's own borders in suspicious circumstances can lead the face-off in less threatening,more seemly directions that can end in more courteous agreement. The US knows full well what the Chinese did and why they did it. This disagreement on where it happened is a diversionary point. If the US chooses to stick over it, it is because it sets precedent for future scenarios regarding where the boundaries will be.

To back off the acuity of this moment, a way must be found to mollify the Chinese in some manner that relaxes them, relaxes their ego and lets them feel right, while costing the US and the rest of the non Chinese world nothing of value, so that other methods of monitoring and mitigating the nuclear threat can be used. Any good con knows how to do this. Hell- Maharaji is doing it right now with the meeting with Abi's dad!

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:59:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Eastern Diplomacy (OT)
Message:
Janet:

Very insightful observations concerning the role of the nuclear genie. However, I think it may be misleading to simply look at the US culture as 'young,' even though it clearly is. It's also very different in *kind*. We are ideological not because we're young, but because the culture is based on ideology, rather than ethnicity. This puts Taiwan right at ground zero in the dispute, between one society that bases it's position on the familial relationships between the older and younger 'brother' (Mao and Chaing) and who both see Sun Yat Sen as the 'father' of a unitary entity, and another society that sees Taiwan as an ideological fortress of liberalism. Neither side is inclined to relinquish it's position, so China is seeking some sort of advantage it can later use to pry the US loose. In other words, this is all about leaverage over Taiwan.

Somehow the US has to ultimately make the case that the younger brother was not only justified in what he did, but is the *real* revolutionary voice of China. In other words, this impasse can only be resolved if China moves in the direction of liberalism, and *toward* Taiwan's system.

At the Institute here in greater DC we have Chinese Ph.D. students from both Taiwan and the Mainland, and they are often not speaking to one another. The feud is very palpable. There's a lot of work involved in *not* touching off this powder keg before there's any chance to resolve it.

Sorry about the OT.

--Scott

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:58:38 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: About this matter
Message:
Jagdeo is/was a mahatma, under the direct supervision of Maharaji, not EV. Bottom line. These events are disappointing, but a step in the right direction.
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:50:56 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: We were at Millenium Sandy!
Message:
dfhgkd
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 05:37:25 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: So is this your invisible friend, Bill?
Message:
Come on, you know the rules:)
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:38:49 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: My invisible freinds are typeing on the forum...nt
Message:
scgna
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:07:52 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sorry, Sandy, that's changed too
Message:
The instructors are 'officially' managed by EV, even though they obviously still consider themselves to belong to their master and under his orders, not EV.

Personally, I am relieved and glad that I harbour no secrets anymore. My presentation is an accurate representation of myself and that feels relaxing and good.

Um, accurate, I say, well perhaps I should add that I feel a bit like an over inflated balloon that is sinking back into a natural shape!

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 16:54:48 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Sandy
Subject: Rawat's non-step towards change
Message:
These events are disappointing, but a step in the right direction.

Rawat apologised to person #1 for the damage that person #2 did to person #3. He doesn't admit to being personally responsible for any of it - yet he apologised for 40 minutes. You see a real step? In a direction that will lead where?

Do you believe that Rawat is willing to offer the same 40-minute sensitivity-session to placate EVERY father of Jagdeo's victims?

Has he apologised to ANYONE for tossing all those people out onto the streets when he closed the ashrams?

Has he apologised to ANYONE for making them pay the costs at the time after they'd already turned over their money to him for years?

Has he apologised to ANYONE for building his entire comfortable life on the financial contributions and slave-labor of those who thought that World Peace would result from their sacrifices?

Has he apologised to ANYONE for the lies that he has told, and continues to tell, to cause trusting people to make those sacrifices in the first place?

Jagdeo is/was a mahatma, under the direct supervision of Maharaji, not EV. Bottom line.

Right. So he's telling yet another lie. A 40-minute denial of all personal responsibility that you view as being a step in the right direction.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:26:37 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: So in other words...
Message:
There seems to be an element here that wants Maharaji to 'clean up his act', as if that will make things somewhat better and he can continue his mission with a thumbs-up from them. Then there is another element that just wants to expose the dirt and bury him in it, with no room for any reconciliation on any level.

If you knew that someone or a group of folks had it in for you, justifiably or unjustifiably, and they did not want to reconcile, but just beat you up, how willing would you be to get straight with them and expose your belly to them?

At this altitude - coming onto the world with a messianic message and mission - there are not alot of choices:

A) He is a genuine teacher and Knowledge is a real connection to our inner selves, even though he, DLM/EV have been messy at times and individuals have been hurt. His shortcoming is not his authenticity, but rather his to date limited ability to personally connect with his premies when things went haywire and premies got hurt or confused.

B) He is a basically well-meaning but materialistic caricature of a world teacher and is just running his trip on whoever he can. Knowledge is just a parlor trick that many teachers know how to impart.

C) He is a false teacher and Knowledge is just a red herring yogic illusion to divert attention from his vast accumulation of $$$.

Out of the three choices I have presented, I can't see him as B) or C) from my own perspective. That leaves 1). If you can respond without being insulting, I welcome your dialog...oh hell, even if you have to be insulting, I will welcome your dialog and will just skip the shitty parts.

Sandy

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:10:27 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: What's wrong with option D)?
Message:
D) He is materialistic teacher, and is just running his trip on whoever he can. Knowledge is just four meditation techniques (among many) that many teachers can teach.

You could test out the second part of this by teaching the meditation techniques to someone who will give them a try, but doesn't know anything about Maharaji. Of course it would be better if you had a larger sample like David Lane had, but there's a good chance that even one person will have a definite experience. Of course, you would need to be careful not to give any interpretation of any experience they might get, such as:-

It's an experience of God.
It's an experience of your life force.
It's an experience of your true self.
..or anything else that raises the subject's expectation of the experience.

As you still obviously suspect only Maharaji can teach meditation, it would worth be a try wouldn't it to remove your doubts?

John.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:55:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You're dreaming as usual, Sandy
Message:
There seems to be an element here that wants Maharaji to 'clean up his act', as if that will make things somewhat better and he can continue his mission with a thumbs-up from them.

A little wishful thinking? No one I know thinks anything of the sort. Quit projecting your fantasies everywhere.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:11:59 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Sandy
Subject: They are separate issues
Message:
Your 3 choices link a viewpoint of Rawat with an assigned viewpoint of Knowledge. If there are only 3 possible ways to view each of them, that's 9 different combinations, not 3.

I'm not concerned here with the nature of Knowledge, and you won't find anything on the site that passes judgement on it's benefits/drawbacks. That's a subjective judgement, like the value of prayer. Ask 2 premies (who will actually dare to talk honestly about their own personal experiences without Rawat's permission to do so) and you'll get different answers.

But unlike prayer or meditation, you CAN make an objective evaluation about a 'genuine teacher', as you put it.

If indeed people have the ability to experience the mystical or spiritual or whatever, that ability is in-born and not granted (or denied) by some other person.

It's one thing to say, 'I know something that you don't know yet', and another to say, 'I know something that you are incapable of ever knowing because I am a special being and - face it - you're not.'

As a 'genuine teacher', Rawat doesn't teach anything. Real teachers produce teachers, not life-long students. If there is no learning, there was no teaching. If there is learning, then the ability to teach results from that.

Schools are full of students. In 20 years many of them will be back in the classroom as teachers. They'll teach others to read because because they were taught, and because they personally see a value in others having that same ability.

None of them were ever made to promise that they wouldn't share what they've learned with others by some over-puffed 'genuine teacher'. Truth, Knowledge, the ability to read, etc are not the property of a 'special' person who places himself above the rest of us.

You started out like a lot of us - wanting to understand your own self. If meditation helps you in that process, then practice it.

But premies don't dwell on the value of Knowledge. They don't share that 'experience' with others, because they don't actually value it.

I have more respect for Father Love than for premies. He personally saw a value in Knowledge, and so he shared it with others. And he didn't make them kiss his ass first, or afterwards as a sign of eternal gratitude for what he showed them.

What about you, Sandy? You're always going off about what a great thing Knowledge is. Who have you shared it with? Is your own 'experience' so tied to Maharaji that you can't imagine that you had any light inside yourself before you were shown how to see it?

Premies dwell on 'Maharaji' - his magical wonderfulness. They want to help him share 'his message', and they have nothing to say themselves otherwise. They haven't learned a damn thing - about their own self or about the nature of those who pretend to be more than what they are. There are no enlightened premies. None. Zero.

Including Rawat. To the extent that he perpetuates the lie about the Master/Student relationship and the gratitude that is due him for what his 'students' haven't learned, he is a fraud. To the extent that they practice the self-deception necessary to view him as 'special', they are fools.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:48:54 (GMT)
From: Chuck Sprague
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: THANK YOU! You are so right , M. teaches nothing
Message:
As Joy once said, the ''meditation'' is just a lure to get people interested in M. Joy also maintained that new exes should stop practicing M's ''meditation techniques''. I disagreed with her at first, but am starting to see it her way.

Those same techniques, taught in a more traditional way, as YOGA, without all the religious baggage, provide a much more easy and satisfying meditation experience. And you can share that with anyone!

It's only natural to want to share what you have learned. The premies have nothing to share, except devotion to their Master. That is the only thing M. ''teaches''. I'm happy to say I don't practice ''M's Knowledge'' any more. The only reason for keeping M's techniqus secret is to manipulate people, and keep them from discovering that it's a common type of yoga, debased by M., which is misused as a lure into a personality cult.

Thanks for such a clear post.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:51:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Just excellent, Brian. Thanks - a must read. NT
Message:
j
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:17:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Don't forget the suicides
Message:
Agree wtih everything you say, Brian. I do think, however, that, while Maharaji might not have intended any 'sea change', meeting with Abi's dad might be more of a precedent than he was looking for. [What sayest thou, EV monitor? Care to let us know how this 'gesture' of Maharaji's is playing out back in the bunker?] Maharaji's either going to never do this again, in which case he'll look like he was just pretending the other day, or he'll meet with other representatives of seriously aggrieved people so he can continue to hide behind his front organization, etc.
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:30:05 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Distinguishing the Issues...
Message:
As I see it, there are a few issues here that may be getting blurred.

The first issue is the fact that Maharaji ''granted'' a private ''audience'' to Abi's father. I placed quotes over those words because that's the way premies (especially dyed in the wool ones) will view it. He's still exalted as Master and anything he says will be believed. Should he mention this issue or make an apology at Amaroo, he will only positively reinforce premies' idealistic and programmed view of him that he can 'come down off his thrown' and talk to actual premies...that will satisfy premies. (Not so good.) Yet THAT cannot be considered a public apology. In what venue will that public apology take place?

I don't believe he had a choice at this juncture (to not to meet with Abi's father) because it appears that a lot of premies are staying away from Amaroo; they are reading this site. In order to gain credibility and maintain his head of cult standard with his current followers, he had to do something that looks like a humanitarian effort (meeting with Abi's father). Personally, I don't think he would ever have done so without pressure from this forum, as well as, the pressure of the upcoming Amaroo event.

This first issue is premies' dissatisfaction with Maharaji/EV and how that will play out over the coming weeks.

The second issue is what Abi and Susan want (which really is the primary issue, but not here). That is their private business. When a child is abused in such a way, it's not usually within a cult, is not usually discussed on a public opposition website forum where information gets posted, revealed and discussed. Confronting one's abuser is a choice each victim/survivor makes for themself under ANY circumstances. In this regard, it is up to those individuals to decide if the issue has been satisfied or has brought closure to them. This, again, is never guaranteed, and only those directly involved are in the position to know this. Maharaji expressed ''sympathy'' to a father, yet, he isn't the actual perpetrator, Jagdeo is. So Maharaji has granted himself the perfect scapegoats: Jagdeo and DLM and EV. Which we all know is false, because he's been harboring a pedophile and we all know it.

Yet, still, it is up to the Jagdeo survivors to decide whether they are satisfied or if they will continue to pursue this further via legal action or whatever avenue they choose.

The third issue is us. The ex-premies. Each one of us has personal issues with Maharaji, whether or not we've worked them out emotionally/spiritually/intellectually.

We've heard that M met with Abi's father and feel very dissatisfied (at least I do), I can't speak for everyone--especially Abi, her father and Susan. We know Maharaji is pulling another, well, Maharaji i.e., mixing everything up and pointing his finger at EV, DLM, Jagdeo, everyone except himself. He's so transparent it is truly laughable. He's up against a wall, yet he's pretty good at squirming out, and we can see that, but, personally, I feel helpless about it other than to continue to post here.

What about the rest of us? Well, I don't think M's concerned about the rest of us right now....he's got a major controversy on his hands and, like any other sleezebag cult leader, he's pawning it all off to those he rules. But that doesn't mean I can't express my own disappointment with how this Jagdeo matter has been dealt with over some 20 years. Nor am I excluded from the conversation: what about the???? ashrams?? DECA??? hit and runs???, etc., etc., etc....

The fourth and final issue is the most important IMO. That's the question of whether or not Jagdeo, and any other of the sex offending Mahatmas will actually be taken out of circulation so that real, live, innocent children will be saved from possible harm from them. What guarantee and how will that guarantee be made available to Abi, Susan, all of the victims, and the ex-premies? How will we know if what Maharaji promised in terms of 'justice' will be carried out? How can we ever be satisfied with someone we have come to know as a liar and a con-man?

Hopefully, over the next weeks and months, something will happen that reassures us that Jagdeo, et al, are out of contact with children.

Then what? We will continue, at least I plan to, to post my objections to EV, Maharaji, and the entire fraud that's been perpetrated upon us.

That's how I see it today...
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:23:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Public apology - what venue?
Message:
'In what venue will that public apology take place?'

Good question. To be truly public, an apology would have to be accessable to the public at large, people who are not his devoted slaves. For example, there should be an apology on his web sites. (I say 'his' because he really controls Elan Vital.) There should be a personal public apology from Rawat that includes an admission of his wrongdoings. I don't buy his story that he didn't know about Jagdeo's crimes. And when will he apologize for the ashrams? Years ago when asked regarding the ashrams 'What was that all about?' he replied 'Mistakes were made.' I'm afraid that he will pull the same stunt this time.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:32:29 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: A Statement of Lack of Faith - EPO to EV/Rawat
Message:
The fact that missed memories and lack of responce from EV can only mean something. There is a legal issue to be addressed if and when the apology will come. Letigations may follow, meaning money going out of rawats coffers. This could by itself lead to other law suites.

I think rawat is walking on a tight rope and his legal team is going full steam ahead of trying to figure out how to minimise the impact of his apology. But like you said, he may pass the hot potato on the indian mahatmas.

Master-devotee, how long will he hang on to that?

Great insight.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:01:53 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: justice can only be demanded by the victims
Message:
rawat can do no more than fire jagdeo. that won;t take jagdeo out of circulation from having access to real live children. EV can fire jagdeo. same result. the only action that has teeth, with regards to getting jagdeo out of circulation, so that no more children can be subject to his sexual aberrations, is for abi and susan, and any other victims he assaulted to report his crimes to law enforcement, and to be willing to go through the justice system, to apprehend him, arrest him, charge him, jail him, see that he does not bail out, take him to trial, testify against him, prove the case to get him convicted, and see him imprisoned and cataloged into the data base of known sex offenders, a la Megan's Law in California.

To name rawat in the trial as a codefendent is an option, although he is not the sex offender of abi and susan. that part of the action may be thrown out.

there can be a criminal trial against jagdeo and a civil trial against jagdeo and rawat. two separate actions in two separate arenas, with different standards of proof and culpability. Rawat would likely have to stand for the civil trial. As CEO and de facto leader of EV and all his mahatmas and followers, he would remain responsible and culpable for jagdeo's acts, especially since we have our own evidence here to present from the victims, the community and the IHQ office that Rawat and Judy Osborne and Randy Prouty and Chanrnanand all were told and relayed messages and got back to the victims years ago to the effect that maharaji knew and was relieved that it was not a new incident, and assigned watchers to shadow and monitor jagdeo as supposed safeguard to any new episodes.

Looking to maharaji and elan vital to bring justice is not possible. they have no grounds on which to prosecute. they can do no more than a hospital or a medical board can to prevent a bad doctor from practicing. in reality what happens is that such a hspital privately censures the offender, then writes a glowing letter of recommendation to another place and send the guy down the road, glad to be rid of him in their area or even their state. and the guy goes on to perpetrate the same crimes on others in the new place.

i followed up on the discusion to get in touch with interpol, after the subject surfaced in a thread here the other day. the trail has to begin with reporting jagdeo to law enforcement somewhere, in order for him to be entered into the system. the more countries he is reported in, the more it becomes a motter for interpol to pursue. law enforcement is the only aencyn the world that has the power to take jagdeo into locked longterm penitentiary custody in order to keep him from children ever again.
maharaji doesnt have that power. elan vital doesnt have that power.
if we sit around wringing our hands and passively hoping and wishing and waiting, nothing substantial will ever happen to get him away from children.

Short of natural death or a sniper, the agent to engage with to ensure his removal from society is law enforcement. and only the victim(s) have the right to bring such action.

As someone in the legal system explained to me, if the one who was wronged does not bring a complaint, and the complaint does not get brought in front of the law, the judge cannot rule on it. The system can only act on what you bring before it. That means both the police and the court. It begins with the one who was wronged, reporting, making a complaint, and a demand for justice to be done, and making it to those who have the societal power by law to do it. The complainant also has to committ to staying in cooperation to the end of the pursuit. if the complainant drops it/out, the pursuit dies.

maharaji doesnt have that power or that right. neither does elan vital.
so hoping they will 'deal with it', somehow, is a mistake in hope and attention, and a valuable waste of time, during which jagdeo can touch all the children he wishes, wherever he goes.

here's a horrible scenario to ponder:
EV fires jagdeo. he has communities all over the world where he has been, and is still clamored for, as the venerated mahatma. he opts to go to them. he molests children there.
so the only thing left to do is to entrap him with a willing child and a sting, to catch him in the act and bust him red handed.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:15:37 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: According to previous posts
Message:
this sicko has already been reported to police. Check with Anth, he knows the whole story
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:34:39 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Evidence that M runs EV/DLM
Message:
There must be lots of evidence in Maharaji's satsangs, DLM/EV letters, etc., that Maharaji has always run the organisations. I haven't got my box of magazines and videos with me here, but I'm sure others have.

So, if anyone has the time, let's get some quotes posted that disprove Maharaji's claim that EV is separate from him.

Also, anybody who ever had a position in EV/DLM and was promoted, sacked, or otherwise re-positioned directly by Maharaji, please post the details here.

This is one lie we can surely challenge.

John.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 07:59:20 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I can mention the several organizers conferences
Message:
I've been a part of, once , twice a year or more in some instances.

M would dictate his policy to EV, and that was left up to us to implement his wishes. He of course always had a look (through his personal assistants/secretaries - several systems and many changes in his own staff) at what was going on, and every team had to file monthly reports statistics etc sent to him directly or through Visions.

Saying he has nothing to do wih EV is a joke. He is the dictator, chairman of EV.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:10:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: where's that video with the pie chart?
Message:
and that atlantic city tape we transcribed here not too long ago?

also-jagdeo predates the DLM/EV name change switcheroo. he came to us as one of maharaji's mahatma's back when they were stil called mahatmas.

who's in charge of the archive of evidence we keep speaking of? the videos, magazines, books, photos, letters and tapes, that never got turned in to be destroyed when he sent the call out? that repository is where we should be mining our evidence from, along with all our websites.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 08:58:48 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I can mention the several organizers conferences
Message:
J-M,

Is it possible to compile a selection of first hand accounts of examples of Maharaji running EV, and post them somewhere on the site alongside Abi's post about her father meeting Maharaji, and the EV FAQ? Even though we all know EV is Maharaji's baby, I think it's important to publish solid, undeniable evidence of this.

Thanks,

John.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:49:52 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Who appointed Dettmers and Donner?
Message:
I've known quite a few instructors but not EV honchos. One of the instructors whom I know in UK was chosen by Whittaker who WAS appointed by Rawat. The two South African Bais (now deceased) were chosen by Rawat Senior. The white South African instructor was chosen by Rawat Junior.

The Aussie one I know was chosen by an Oz DLM honcho but was given orders by Rawat. I don't know who chose Horton but I know that he got his instructions from rawat by phone every week when he was in the East during the 80s. The local instructor was chosen by EV honchos and does not get directions from Rawat.

If this proves too hard to prove then I am going to pursue a tax investigation of EV USA for misappropriating charitable donations. If I can't get Rawat I'll get his tools. Watch out EV honchos. Rawat will feed you to the sharks to save his skin. Sorry about it but you are the ones who are propping him up. Pull you down and he's out of here. Hasta la vista, baby!

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:42:22 (GMT)
From: Zelda Smart
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: but.. but!!
Message:
If EV or DLM has in the past inferred that Maflafla is the leader of the people/organization - and that what he says goes- AND they published it--- doesnt it follow that the victims had a right to assume that he was responsible --because they were given the impression that everyone was answerable to M?

When people get knowledge do they sign up to join EV ??
If they dont then EV has nothing to do with their claim.

Zelda thinking

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:27:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Zelda Smart
Subject: You are getting a little nutty with this Jim
Message:
infer, imply, yes, a difference. And yes, I made a spelling error. I also do not know the distinction between amount and difference.

Susan, would you like to hear an amusing antidote?

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:42:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You must mean 'amount and number' (and I'M Jim)
Message:
Zelda,

First, it is customay in civilized circles to address another person by their own name and not merely adopt it as your own. You have a perfectly wonderful name in 'Zelda' and I'm sure that your parents, who probably also only post under assumed aliases, would be most disappointed to see you not using it. No, no, you be Zelda and, for now at least, I'll be Jim.

The distinction between 'amount' and 'difference' baffles the best of us, I'm afraid. As a consolation may I offer the following:

One uses 'number' when the matter is subject to counting. When it's not, one says 'amount'. Thus, one talks about the number of people in the world (yes, if we wanted to, we could count them all), whereas one says the 'amount of sand' on the beach (because who'd ever bother?).

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:54:10 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jim + Jim
Subject: You must mean 'amount and number'
Message:
Re the amount and number comment- I dont think I made it and I am mixed up with the replys.
as for my name Zelda - Maxwell Smart is my mentor and when I make comment about Legal stuff I like to honor my mentor . I owe him all I know.
so far I am the one the only zelda here .
oodgay ayday
Z
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:03:35 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: execuse me. how many Jims are here?--nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:05:27 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Zelda Smart
Subject: but.. but!!
Message:
of course m runs things...i certainly appointed, selected all the instructors when i was around. you could find one former or current instructor who would think tthat they were appointed by and are responsible to anyone but m. imagine if they thought they were appointed or selected by me during the 79-84 time frame when i was so called the link to them re communications. ludicrous to even imagine.
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:03:01 (GMT)
From: bill--Valerio is the one
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: that arranges the aircraft purchase prices......nt
Message:
lkjg
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:11:46 (GMT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: thread
Subject: but- just typing out loud
Message:
I am not sure what difference it makes - it just seems important that everyone was given the impression that he was in charge back then and now he hides behind the EV organization and says they are answerable to all this ...

it is so easy and corporate yucky.'

I wonder if it makes any difference legally that the premies were given the impression that he was in charge and that we thought we were in his care and not a leaf moved in the organization without him.

Hell- wasnt it M himself that closed unity school? I remember there was a hell of a ruckus when he showed up there and the next thing we new we had to take the kids to another school.

I wonder it makes a difference legally to distinguish between Actual control and control on paper.
And if a complaint under the structure back then can be evaluated and defended under the present structure

Z

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:50:52 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: valario
Message:
hi i was addressing some questions to fohm or whoever below regarding valario's assignment and the fact that he was assigned to speak to abi's father. is this the valario who is the brother of alvaro (both initiators/instuctors of past) the valario who was the cook at the residence for years and years?

why was valario assigned the task of meeting abi's father and bringing jagdeo to justice? is he now an executive of e.v.? if not, what is his weight with e.v. will they listen to him becaouse he 'comes on assignment from m' there fore he has agya power?? if indeed valario is still a residence staffer...then this special assignment has interesting implications re the overlap of authority and contradicts the distance that m is trying to establish between himself and e.v. and trying to put the instructors under e.v.'s authourity and not his.

how stupid does he think we are? does anyone believe for a moment that anyone in e.v. will breathe without permission and direction from m? that anyone can retain a position in e.v. if they are not doing what m wants them to do? or that somehow instructors get their power/authority to give k from anyone other then m?

by looking at where valario sits in this drama we will get some insight into the current relationships wth these parties/entities.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 16:30:28 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: valario's credentials
Message:
It's the same Valario: past residence cook and initiator/instructor. He earned a Ph.D. in Psychology from Pepperdine University and works as a psychologoist.
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:42:08 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Name taken
Message:
The moniker 'Know It All' is already in use by another regular poster. Please choose another one. Thank you.

FA

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:28:58 (GMT)
From: The First Know It All
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Don't swipe my moniker, dude or dudette
Message:
Hey, you've co-opted my identity! You could be Know It Also if you wanted, but I've spent decades developing my credibility here!
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:20:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Is Valerio [Valario?] boung by a licensing regime?
Message:
If he's a working psychologist, he may have to answer to a Board of Psychologists or something. Does anyone know?
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 06:43:23 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Valerio
Message:
Hi Michael,
Valerio as I understand is in charge of trainings inside EV. I don't know what other possition he has. Yes he is Alvaro's brother.

Mercedes (about to have a brakedown with the bloody taxes)

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:43:48 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Valerio
Message:
so, my question is...is valario on the int'l payroll or e.v.? or still at residence as cook or perhaps both...how and why did he get the assignment re abi's father et al??
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:38:41 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Valerio
Message:
I don't know, the first time I saw this person was at my last event, Oxnard this past January. He is some big honcho now don't know who pays his check. His wife receives the participation applications and sorts them out I think something like that.
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 15:01:27 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: Mercedes, extended tax deadline OT
Message:
Mercedes,

Did you know people living around Seattle have two extra weeks to get taxes done because of the earthquale? You have to write 'Washington State Earthquake' in red pen at the top of the return to get the extension. I'm not kidding, but check out the exact details.

Richard

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:58:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: True Story re taxes
Message:
One time in the early 70s, when I was in college and worked over the Summer and part time, I owed about $400 in taxes to the Feds. So, I signed a form and included a letter to the IRS saying that I refused to pay my taxes because they were going to finance the Vietnam War, and instead, I was donating half my taxes to Vietnam Veterans Against the War and the other half to the Black Panther Party.

Anyhow, about a year later, I went to my bank to withdraw some cash from my account (this was before ATMs if you can believe it), which I believed had $200 in it. The teller told me I was overdrawn. I later found out that the IRS had taken all but $1 out of my account to pay part of the taxes. They never tried to get the rest of it, though. So much for that!

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 15:14:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Also, there's always the good old Form 4868! OT/nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:40:58 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Also, there's always the good old Form 4868! OT/
Message:
I know but I had trouble with my printer, anyway I got flustered and sent it in electronically. It was nightmarish. Thanks for the info anyway
Mercedes
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:27:58 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: My sympathy, Mercedes! (ot)
Message:
Glad you got it done, though. It's always a nightmare for me too - mostly a psychological one.

Love,
Katie

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 05:00:45 (GMT)
From: zelda
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: right
Message:
it seems they are falling all over themselves .
the tricky rubix cube action of M/EV/DLM needs to be played in reverse and exposed.
I hope that someone here is collecting relavant posts- and they are not only flung onto the forum to perhaps get lost.
Z
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:17:17 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Welcome back, Mike. Straight from horse's mouth
Message:
Hope you had a good vacation. You're just in time to talk turkey.
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:46:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Zelda Smart
Subject: That's 'imply', Zelda (agree with all, btw) [nt]
Message:
fffff
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:24:14 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Proof that he sacks and directs instructors
Message:
John:

I agree. But re the alleged sexual abuse situation re the mahatmas (or instructors), all we'd need is proof that M actually runs the show.

That may be all we need for EV as well. Are there by-laws or other corporate documents?

From my casual look at this situation, he may be on legal grounds to blame everyone else, but if there was enough proof otherwise, the court of public opinion would run high against him. If certain things can't be done w/o his approval, no matter what the legal papers say, he calls the shots, and is to blame for whatever his 'ship' runs into.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 22:55:01 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: the name change document is here on epo
Message:
dlm to ev name change
Lots of sites list M as the leader of EV formerly DLM. This may not be hard evidence but they must have gotten the info somewhere. They can't all be wrong.
Here just a few (if some of them are from people here, well I didn't check so sorry.)

and no html sorry too lazy.
=========================
http://caic.org.au/eastern/divi.htm
http://www.freedomofmind.com/groups/elan/elan.htm
http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/elanvital.html

http://www-cgsc.army.mil/CHAP/relpractice/Sikh/elan.htm
http://www.kheper.auz.com/topics/gurus/Maharaji.html

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:24:29 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Statements of Faith
Message:
Statements of faith cannot be proved or disproved by science or history.
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:10:11 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Statements of Faith
Message:
Have you been eating chineese cookies?
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 04:34:46 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: It IS scientific and here's why
Message:
I used to half believe that there might be UFOs buzzing our planet. It was possible given the vast number of planets that are out there possibly supporting life. But I didn't really have 100% faith in this idea. It just seemed about 50% possible.

Then a few years ago I saw a UFO very close-up and could even see the markings around the edge of it, not in any terrestial script. I immediately changed from 50% faith to 100% certainty that UFOs exist.

It's all a matter of probabilities, really. Instead of the word 'faith', substitute the word 'probability' and then you can make reasonable statements. If you don't know something for certain, then you have to have a probability figure for it. That's logical, isn't it.

You cannot say that there is a 100% probability that God exists, unless you have seen clear evidence of same. So you then have 'faith' or a 'probability figure' that God exists. Some people's probability figure is in the eighties or nineties while some people's is in the tens or zero.

Regarding your statement that Maharaji has brought benefit to the world; that is a straight forward statistical argument. You take all the people who have received knowledge and then find the percentage who say they have benefited by Maharaji.

Judging by the current number of people who attend programs, in a ratio to the number of people who received k, I'd assess that the percentage of people who will say they have benefitted from M is very low. Around the 1% mark.

I could write more on this but first the above has to be digested.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:35:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Aren't you forgetting something, Dave?
Message:
Regarding your statement that Maharaji has brought benefit to the world; that is a straight forward statistical argument. You take all the people who have received knowledge and then find the percentage who say they have benefited by Maharaji.

Judging by the current number of people who attend programs, in a ratio to the number of people who received k, I'd assess that the percentage of people who will say they have benefitted from M is very low. Around the 1% mark.

I could write more on this but first the above has to be digested.

OK, I've digested it. I won't touch your first comments about the UFO other than to say that such remarkable testimony can't reasonably be expected to convince without corroboration. You might be in the unenviable position of being certain of something you could never expect people to believe. Oh well, huh?

But as for the number of people who say they've been benefitted by Maharaji being the measure of how much real 'benefit' he's brought anyone, aren't you forgetting that this is a cult? I'm sure that lots of members of any cult would SAY they've benefitted. Reasonable minds might disagree.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 01:19:58 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Benefit, shmezzifit
Message:
Since every premie who comes here and becomes an ex-premie, is overjoyed at their transformation and release from the cult, it looks like you could have a point.
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 02:57:48 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Statements of Faith - you must qualify this~!
Message:
Sandy, people got burned at the stake for proposing scientific facts that went against 'statements of faith' such as the sun revolving around the earth that WAS a statement of faith that was important to the Catholic Church because it's in the creation story. If you say 'I have faith in god', that's one thing - if you say 'I believe the creation story in the bible to be absolute truth' (and there are people who DO take the King James version of the bible to be literal truth, because 'God said it') that's another thing entirely. You can also find people who 'believe' that the Holocaust never happened - I'm sure they have faith in their statements as well.

I'm not meaning to pick on you, but I don't like broad-brush pronouncements like this, as you've probably guessed. Your statement is way too broad, IMHO. Faith in WHAT?

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:52:14 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: I agree
Message:
It depends on whether a particular 'statement of faith' makes a claim about the physical world that can be tested. For example, 'the universe is 10,000 years old' and 'the first humans were formed directly from clay' both makes concrete claims about the world, whereas 'there is a spiritual realm' does not.
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:26:34 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Thanks, G - very well said (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:09:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Quit picking on Sandy -- sheesh, double sheesh!
Message:
I'm sorry, Katie, but somehow this just doesn't feel right. In my heart, I mean.

Sandy, hang in there, bud. I'd say 'keep the faith' but I don't want to get you in even more trouble with this pack of abusers.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:11:25 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, go argue with Sandy and Such, Jim!
Message:
Can't see anyone taking the 'high road' in THAT particular conversation - snicker.
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 03:16:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I can't. I have to wash my hair (nt)
Message:
ggggg
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:14:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Faith in what? Why do we need faith?
Message:
Yes, Sandy that is perfectly true. But why do I need faith and what do I need to have faith in?

I trust myself and have self-confidence but I don't need to believe in anything that isn't real, factual, actual and tangible. I also trust my friends and lovers and I have faith in them and am faithful and loyal to them.

I try to choose doctors, lawyers and other professionals whom I can trust and have faith in their judgments on matters about which I am ignorant. I trust bungee jumping, bankers, bureaucrats, politicians and salesmen less but try to stay away from those who are completely untrustworthy.

When I was old enough (4) to understand Santa I believed in him for one Xmas and then figured out it was my mom when I was 5 - not my dad because he was always too drunk. I believed in fairies, goblins, the bogeyman and my invisible friend until I was 5.

I had faith in Rev Rawat because his Mahatma Carnival juju was potent and led me to believe that feeling high was the truth. Now I know that feeling high is feeling high and nothing more.

As for gods, angels, devils, UFOs and ETs and other figments of delusion or drunkenness the less said the better.

Now as for hope and charity - yes, I believe in those. Why be pessimistic when it is just as easy to be optimistic and just as useless to change the future? And I definitely believe in charity - caring and kindness. It's what makes life better than mere survival.

I can't stand St Paul, the founder of the Christian religion business, but good poetry is good poetry and this a good poem.

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:19:30 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: The same person who wrote Corinthians XIII also
Message:
said that 'faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.'

Prayer is the hook, faith is the line, and effort is the reel.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 02:04:25 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: went 2 EasterParty:bit off a choco-bunny's head(ot
Message:
Sandy,

Don't worry about any 'mystical dematerializations' on the premises, my brother. Actually, I haven't had so much fun since some insufferable prick bully-boy punk wannabe in the WPC ashram taunted me with his chaka sticks 1 inch from my face while I was meditating. The sissy-boy punk ended up on the floor in 3 seconds with a broken nose and his chaka sticks wrapped around his stupid neck. The lesson there: only a total mentally unstable certifiable idiot would even dream of ever fucking around with me -- anytime, anywhere, anyway, or anyhow. [Of course, I got reprimanded by the general secretary - but promoted to head of security. Arjuna with shades... haha]

Geez, Sandy, what an Easter Party I went to yesterday. Forgot to thank the host for the surprise invite. To be honest, the dumb card I received kinda sucked, however. And there were a whole bunch of rotten eggs in the stupid Easter basket -- glad they got chucked out, though. They didn't smell so good -- phew! But that lil' white chocolate bunny SURE tasted good, though. Yum! The best part, of course, is when you bite off its soft, thick empty head. [Kinda fattening, too, but I work out all the time in my home gym to stay in shape -- pumping iron, hitting the heavy bag, doing pushups, situps, etc.] Whenever I see white chocolate bunnies anywhere near me (or around my friends), it's almost like they're practically begging to get chewed up. Yum! Boy, am I hungry now -- just thinking about it! Gotta go get a Snickers.

Hope you had a Happy Easter,

Peace and LENTILS,
LOL

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:22:41 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: such
Subject: hey lil'ol swami
Message:
Is that you?

You sound a bit rattled in the head, wazup?

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:50:38 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: My beetle mate! Sorry,neglected blessed tariqa...
Message:
Hi Salam! Namaste. Allahu Akbar!

Actually, I have been dealing with a whole bunch of kinda bad stuff lately, my dear ekwan. In some situations, too, if he doesn't get his lil' nap or is too fatigued for a week or two, even da silly lil' old swami may lose his single-pointed focus, better judgment, or sometimes even become forgetful of this eternal moment and revert back to long-discarded ways -- but, even then, only for the sake of those beings he protects and loves who are less fortunate or in pain. (But even Dalai Lama has bodyguards, too. I have seen them in Dharamsala.) No, I was being most uncharacteristically facetious - a most loathesome trait for anyone to adopt as a habit. I truly didn't enjoy inflicting pain on the misguided Texas brother who called me 'n--ger lover' and then hit me first with his chaka sticks. [Did you know, that same 'n' word was used and displayed on this very Forum,too, on the blessed Rev. Martin Luther King's birthday?]

But every person has an inherent right to protect their spirit and this sacred temple of the human body -- from abuse or physical harm. Yet, unfortunately, some people do not have that capability to protect the inviolability of their personal space -- whether by enforced laws, subjugation, or because they have been victims of abuse, indoctrination, or due to a simple chemical imbalance, etc. They are more helpless than others - and we should always treat them with loving kindness and compassion [as we should anyway].

And sometimes there are even demons in human form who prey upon and torment the weak and helpless, you know. Have you seen the concentration camp at Dachau? That same ignorance, darkness and demon mentality that abuses and treats other human beings as less than ourselves was promulgated and bred by the Nazis -- it was the very modus operandi there. I could not bear the sight of the ovens, my friend. I have a sister-in-law, some of whose family members had numbers branded onto their skin by the Nazis. Yes, That is the end-product of what happens when we do not respect the divinity and equality of the rights and sanctity of other human beings. Dear God of Abraham -- Never Again!

Anyway, that fleeting WPC incident was a moment of unconsciousness on the part of both of us, too. But, later, he understood, repented, and became my friend - and I even taught him some guitar riffs and tabla talas. So, Definitely swami needs to get more sleep, and not neglect his morning full meditation. Swami is not thugee -- that was more than a long time ago, before wisdom and discretion became the better part of valour. You know, even the temporary ijtihad of a mujtahid is fallible. And I have not exactly issued a fatwah of jihad. [haha]

Not to worry, my dear friend: The above post by a ghost from the past was mostly just a cryptic joke -- upon second sight now, in bad taste and very obtuse, indeed. Actually, I really like the solid chocolate bunnies, and I can't stand those sugary, marshmallow yellow chickadees or stinkin' hard-boiled eggs. [I don't eat eggs or carcasses of beings that once had faces, anyway. Yuck!] Guess you never did the Easter Bunny thingy; I quite understand. My family was a mixture of East-West. As kids, we always saved the head for last when eating the chocolate bunnies. And my sister and I used to swap the jelly beans; she liked pastel fruits and I love licorice. Yum! Family used to serve lamb with mint jelly. Like the human race -- the Poor little sheep who have Lost their Way -- baba bah... Yes, a Very primitive culture, this dark, material world.

I will tell you some other serious things here, too: 2 days after I told some premies about my m. objections, somebody shoved a 4 inch metal file into the back tire of my auto, and the tire blew up when I backed it out to go somewhere in the morning. Then, last week I found broken glass spread all over the driveway. Then, I got besieged by bizarre emails from people I don't even know; when I checked the so-called email addresses, they were all bogus addresses. Plus, 2 harassing phone calls at 3 am on consecutive nights - saying he [a dude] knew where I lived and 'it's only a matter of time' [click - hangup]. Hard to sleep - after such disturbances.

Meanwhile, my esteemed drummer buddy [who was manic depressive], got told by his brother that his parents had advised the other family members not to mention him to their friends or in social situations ['oh, just pretend T. is dead'; that's what they said - the poor bastards] - because his depression was such a social 'embarrassment' to them. So, he tried to stop taking his anti-depressant and went cold turkey from any medication -- all on his own, without conferring with his doctor. Then, do you know what happened? He hung himself. I came back from the memorial service [they wouldn't even allow him burial in his own church's Catholic cemetery], then went online and read some despicable, related posted things that were very upsetting to any person with any sense whatsoever of decency or humanity. The proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Can you possibly imagine how much Love and Sadness I feel for my friends? Maybe someone had said those same terrible things to T. - like what his family said? [Crying as I write this now]

So, dear brother, I truly need to go right now. Sorry. I am feeling so sad as I recount these last things I have mentioned. Please, I don't want to ruin your day, my beloved ol' dung beetle mate. And I hope no one has thought the worse for my intentions. I am sorry for my part if there has been any misunderstanding.

Well, I shall go eat some rice, lentils and chapatis, and then sit and pray in silence -- and practice my dhikr of the most holy sant mutluk -- the true sight and sounds -- at least I Know True for me.

Please, forgive if I don't respond until Thursday. I am so tired and this old body aches.

Would you please kindly leave email address again? [also, please, confidentiality about me. I don't want to deal with more hassles right now.]

Salaam to All, dear Salam,

swami suchabanana [yes, I am that such a banana...]

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 04:44:26 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Yo Arjuna, listen up
Message:
Please read and inwardly digest the email we just sent you.

There will be no more discussion from our side, it's up to you what happens next.

FA

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:28:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Now I regret posting that because I do not see it
Message:
in relgious terms but as practical advice for living in a civilized manner. Please forget that I said it.

St Pat, the agnostic snake-hater

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:30:54 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Waht the hell are you talking about?
Message:
So substitute 'desire' for prayer and we'll be OK, OK? No religiosity intended. You were the one who brought up Paul, for Christ's sake!
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:39:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Two things I never argue about: religion and wine
Message:
De gustibus non est disputandum.

I worship this beautiful world. It is visible, tangible and most enjoyable.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:42:45 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Whatever float your boat, Pat (nt)
Message:
cheers
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:51:31 (GMT)
From: sean
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Statements of Faith
Message:
Sandy, I do hope you don't really believe that, or perhaps misstated your idea. Statements of faith cannot necessarily be disproven to the believer, though that is not always true, but any statement that is in any way unambiguous can be proven or disproven. Grand ambiguities like the existence of God or life after death may not be in the realm of empirical proof, but that is a VERY FAR leap from your statement.
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:23:46 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: So what ? The sky is blue ..... everyone
Message:
...knows that.

Let's hear some more about your faith , you know , the interesting stuff about flying saucers & so on that you mentioned below .

You are getting beyond redemption.

Wake up motherfucker .

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:45:54 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: To Bin Liner and Janet...in my own words.
Message:
knows that. Let's hear some more about your faith , you know , the interesting stuff about flying saucers & so on that you mentioned below . You are getting beyond redemption. Wake up motherfucker. -Bin Liner

Dear Bin Liner,

You want some interesting stuff from me about flying saucers?
Really? OK. I think they exist. I have alot of faith that they exist. Argue with that.

More on topic though, I also have faith that no matter what dirt is unearthed on Maharaji or any of his associates to date, he has also done good in the world. That is a statement of faith and direct experience, so by your own words you cannot prove or disprove that with science or history. I will say that due to the stuff that has been unearthed, I have backed off for now from involvement with EV and going to programs because I am not in agreement with much of what has gone down as recorded here. But that does not take away from the good of the Knowledge experience that I enjoy whenever I practice it. So I am all for Knowledge but I am not all for everything that EV or Prem Rawat has said or done over the years that has negatively impacted on my fellow human beings, namely many of the people here.

As for my redemption, you are not my redeemer. It is the height of your arrogance to even think that you know if I am beyond it or not. Maybe you are talking about someone else....maybe you.

Sandy

PS Where is Maharaji's apology to Abi on this site? I heard it was around. I'd like to see it.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:56:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Maharaji's apology to Abi? Not quite
Message:
Sandy,

You ARE beyond redemption but what the hell, eh? If you don't care why should anyone else?

Maharaji never apologized to Abi. Rather, he met with her father and told him that he'd never heard of Jagdeo's abusing anyone before and that, terrible as it all is, dad would have to take it up with EV. Maharaji did give him the name of a friend he has at EV, some Valerio guy or something, although he couldn't gurantee anything. You know, his association with EV being what it is and everything. For all he knows, EV just happens to be this organization that really, really likes what he has to say so they just keep on inviting him places to share his timeless wisdom.

The meeting was interesting for a few reasons. One, it shows that Maharaji will, in fact, meet with a trouble-making premie if he's scared enough. Two, it shows that Maharaji doesn't have the guts to play the 'God-in-Human-Form Card' in every instance. Rather, he can play several cards. This time it was as a fellow 'concerned father'. Note, though, that at no time did Maharaji offer to meet the actual aggrieved party herself. Why, he didn't even have a message for her. Think about it.

Finally, those following this scandal for any length of time will appreciate learning once and for all that Susan is a liar. :)

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:02:57 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maharaji's apology to Abi? Not quite
Message:
First, you are not my redeemer either, so you have no knowledge of my status along those lines. But it sure sounds like downtown to anyone who might be passing through.

Second, what was that last item about Susan being a liar? Your
insider flippance leaves a hole in the message.

Third, you are still an asshole. Why do I call you that? Because all that comes out of you in my direction is shit.

So that was the story on Abi's dad? Can you tell me where the text is from Abi? I'd like to read it without your spin.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:07:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Seek and you shall find, oh Sandy (nt)
Message:
ffffff
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:10:32 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Statements of Faith
Message:
Sandy,

Could you give an example of what you're talking about? I was listening to the BBC World Service last week, and there was an item on the recent death of the founder of the Flat Earth Society. This chap (his name escapes me) believed until his dying day that the earth was flat, and his PA has avowed that the organisation will continue to espouse their belief.

If beliefs cannot be challenged by evidence to the contrary (or supported by supporting evidence), then, frankly, they have no value.

As the intro to a famous song by TimG goes:-

'A baker in Ferrara (sp?) thought he was composed of butter, and durst not sit in the sun, or come near the fire, for fear of being melted.'

Now this baker was clearly deluded, because had he examined the evidence, he would have to concede his belief was false.

So Sandy, what beliefs do you have that 'cannot be proved or disproved by science or history'?

Let's have a go at seriously discussing them.

John.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:48:02 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Statements of Faith
Message:
In the interest of space and time, please refer to the above post to Bin and Janet. Use that as your springboard into our discussion, if you will.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:57:17 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Statements of Faith
Message:
That's actually true, Sandy. Faith is a personal choice that can't be disproven, or proven, scientifically. For all we know, there really is a Zeus on Mt. Olympus. Who can say for sure? The thing is, if you're a reasonable person, you won't allow your faith to transgress on reason. If you're not reasonable, well, then anything goes, and it's perfectly understandable that you would believe in Zeus or any other god or gods you choose. You can even choose to believe in all the angels and saints and all the miracles attributed to them. You can even believe that some men are God in human form. The choice is your's, but is it reasonable?
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:55:47 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Statements of Faith
Message:
You can even believe that some men are God in human form. The choice is your's, but is it reasonable? -Jerry

Jerry,

Is the known universe reasonable? Are hurricanes reasonable? Are asteroids that slammed into earth reasonable? Is male-female love reasonable? Is a baby's head coming through a cervix reasonable? Is death reasonable?

To try to reason the entire existence with your brain is to try to put the ocean into a dixie cup. Some things just require faith and belief. I believe that no matter how evolved we get and how much we learn, there will always be the great unknown before us. Just because we don't understand it yet does not mean it's not reasonable or nonexistent.

Peace.

Sandy

PS I believe that all men and women are God in human form. Some are more aware of this reality than others, that's all.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:00:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: YOU ARE A COMPLETE DUNDERHEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Just when I think I can't be moved one way or the other by your childish stupidity, you do it again. Too fucking much. Your kids are so unfortunate to have you for a father. Do they have to play the adults in the family to offset your bullshit?
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 01:04:38 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sticks and stones, you know ther rest...(nt)
Message:
ashgr;ois
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:23:02 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: speak my name and I come. guess i gotta, now.
Message:
saandy--how can you be so dense? how can you blather on and not even see your own words? do i have to take them apart and teach them to you all over again?

look what you said.
faith cannot be proved by science or history.

lets take the definition of history, sandy. what is history? isnt it what occurs over the march of time?
is time over? is it done with? are we finished with history? are all the events over, all the chips counted, the story finished? is it?

no! it is not. history is time. it is what occurs over time.

what does 'faith' mean?
i had a hell of a time with this for most of my life.people would tell me i needed to have more faith and i was a blank. the word had no meaning to me. i honestly couldnt register it. i couldnt connect it to anything i knew or had ever felt or had ever known. i spent years trying to grasp the concept and failed.

i knew what a belief was. someone tells you something, and you believe it. or you don't. or you operate in the world and try things out and you figure them out and by experience you come to believe things. like--
you touch fire and it burns. you touch a live wire and get shocked. you touch ice and get chilly.
you mouth off to your parents and you get slapped. you ask for a pony and get told no. you ask every year and get told no. pretty soon you stop asking because you know what the answer will be.

or everytime you try to do something good, somthing bad happens. pretty soon you believe you can't do anything right.
or everytime you lose a tooth, you put it under your pillow and in the morning there's a quarter and the tooth is gone. you start out believing there really is a tooth fairy until you hear your parents talking about slipping into you kid sisters room and doing the switcheroo on her when she's asleep and you realize there isnt a tooth fairy, its mom and dad.

i never could understand the meaning of the term 'faith' because mine was always getting crushed and destroyed. All the good things I beleived would happen didn't. i never got a chance to experience faith because all i ever had was excitement and hope and belief and dissapointment, and repeated crushed hopes, until the only thing i could form was the certainty that whatever it was, it wouldnt happen for me.
i couldnt take things on 'faith', because with this experience, i got so i wouldnt believe anything unless you proved it to me. it didnt matter what you said was so. I waited to see what you would do. And i distlled my beliefs out of that.
It didnt matter what people said. I watched to see what actually happened. And i formed my beliefs based on what actually happened. To me, to them, to others.

History proved to me whether a thing was true or not. And I still wouldnt call what i colected from my experience, 'faith'.

it wasnt until about ten years ago that i first began to grasp what was meant by the word 'faith'. I was looking back over my life and remarking on various risks I had gone out on a limb for, people i had done things for, just because i felt that what they were afraid of, wasn't necessarily so. I had a friend who had to have his eye cut out, due to glaucoma. It was devastating to him, but i walked with him thru it and out the other side and let him know that i was sure we were bigger that it was. And it turned out to be so.
I had a friend, a homeless man i met in the alleys, who took a seizure and fell off a bridge and woke up in the hospital in a cast with a hip replacement. a year later it hadnt 'took' and i encountered him again, scared to death that if he went bad and showed them, that they would amputate his leg, it was so bad. And I took him by the hand and told him I would go thru it with him, whatever the outcomelet him know i was sure we could face it together. And in time, it turned out to be true. He didnt lose his leg. He got a new hip and in two years time he was good as new, indoors, had an income,his old job back, and had located the love of his life from 25 years ago.

And i still had no concept of what faith was.

I have a friend now, a woman with bipolar disorder. Everyone wonders why i bother to remain on speaking terms with her. I tell her, and i tell them, 'because i see plainly that she has it in her to do it. she can do anything anyone else can do. and i refuse to treat her like she's a throwaway, a lost cause, of no worth'.

she has improved amazingly over the years that i have known her. she is still doing the hard work of reclaiming herself and her own worthwhile life. she isnt all the way to where i know she can be, but she isnt where she was when i met her, either.

time has proven out. proven out what?

my faith. i had faith in these people. i had faith i could do it, they could do it, that we could do it together. i had faith that in time, history would prove me correct.

that's a meaning of 'faith' that i can understand, sandy. it CAN be proven with time.

there are other things i had faith in that i have lost faith in. know why? time didnt prove them out. time proved me terribly wrong.
like the guy i dated, who was and is still a pessimistic martyr, bent on whatever it is he is bent on. i went the distance. i gave hi my faith. i ended up with a broken leg that is now permanently too short that destroyed my balance and my faith in myself.

one can have too much faith in something sandy.

faith is not a magic bullet. it can get you killed, robbed, raped, lost, permanently disfigured. you can end up destitute.

look at the stock market! the dot com deadpool! listen to salesmen. They make their living, getting you to have faith in what they're sellign you. you can be a dupe for putting faith in something, Sandy! faith is not the answer to everything. Its an illusion that can be popped like a bubble.
The parent that is so sure their kids aren't on drugs, aren't having sex, would never shoot a gun. Look at the Columbine High scenario! Those parents were so sure their sons were normal. They had all the usual faith in their childraising providence.
'not my kid! My kid has never contemplated suicide! My kid would never steal something! My kid doesn't cheat! My little girl is a virgin-she isn't pregnant!'
it's called denial, Sandy. Illusion. Self deception. Wishful thinking. Make believe. Pretense. It isnt faith. Faith is something else.

I made a gamble of faith back in 1993 to move to los angeles and try to do something i thought i could. I was wrong wrong wrong. I got here and got slammed up against reality and realized there was no way what i had imagined was ever gonna happen, no matter how much faith i had.

reality will bear out. faith has to yeild to reality.

and history is reality. its what actually happens.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 22:11:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: ****BEST OF FORUM Janet! You amaze me n/t
Message:
best best best
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:35:14 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: faith sucks
Message:
janet,

Where do you come up with these stories? What are? The encyclopeadia of human

I found that changing the word faith with trust makes a hell of lot of difference. Faith is blind belive in an unknown entity, a fairytale that will happen and make everything OK. Well that did not work did it.

Trust, as far far as my situation is concerened is a choice based on fact and experience is beliving in something or someone, and 'trusting' that what 'I' want will happen, not in a metaphorical way, but practically. If I new you well then I will trust you will take me across the road safely. I don't have faith that if I cross the road a car will not hit me. Statistically, faith is not a factor that one should consider, as it changes a lot of parameters, but, like I said, Sandy must have been eating chineese cookies.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:16:20 (GMT)
From: ET (hi sandy!)
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: got her number?
Message:
adffg
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:19:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ET (hi sandy!)
Subject: Phone home and leave earth girls alone (nt)
Message:
kkkkk
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 19:58:03 (GMT)
From: ET (have faith in us)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: we ET's troll the trailer parks and beam up ladies
Message:
and gents for sexual interbreeding. SURELY you have heard that.
It is no secret in OUR world. Believers on your world know the stories. But we know how to pick our Sandies, and our Candies,
and so when they tell thier stories, you already know THEY are not to be taken seriously so we just beam around doing our thing
avoiding the press. Like other secretive organizations!
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:34:57 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: ET (have faith in us)
Subject: Am lost.
Message:
I thought it was scotty's job to beam up things.

How did I get here anyway?

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:56:07 (GMT)
From: Billy
Email: apple4256@datastreet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The death of myths
Message:
Hello Everyone.

I am a first time poster. The impetus for this post is two fold. First, I am very happy for Abi. After all this time, effort, and courage on her part, it must be gratifying that her situation has at least been acknowledged, and an apology made. Even the Chinese goverment managed to garner a half hearted 'sorry' out of George W. (of course for ulterior motives). This situation too, warranted some attention on Maharaji's part. It was inevitable that he had to do something about it eventually. Not that he personally will concern himself with it any longer than he has to. He will already have kicked it into someone else's court, never to be bothered with it again and taking only the steps necessary to protect himself and his empire......Nevertheless, an apology is better than silence. Hopefully it will give others the courage to step forward into the light of day. The fact that Maharaji has apologised for this is just the beginning of the truth that must eventually emerge like a cork bobbing up to the the surface of the water. Truth cannot held back forever... It's all just a matter of time.

Which brings me to another interesting topic. If we all felt confused, disoriented, or angry after allowing ourselves to be deluded by a cult, after a quarter of a century, or however long, just think how the devout Christians or the Jews will feel as their myths and beliefs unravel (which I believe is happening at an ever faster pace). On the front page of the L.A. Times last week there was a long article about Rabbi Wolpe who gave a Passover talk to his congregation bringing to light all of the studies done by groups of independently funded archeologists, who say that there is no real evidence to support the story of how Moses led the Jews out of Egypt. In fact there is nothing to support the idea that the Jews were even ever in Egypt!! This story is the basis of the Jewish belief.

Or, how about the story recently published, and spoken about on CNN just yesterday, about how after doing a whole scientific reconstruction of what Jesus looked like, he apparently did not look anything like the goodlooking Jesus we have all come to know. According to the scientists, he looked more like some disheveled thug from a prehistoric era. Certainly not what we have been conditioned to believe.

Of course just like the premies who are entrenched in their beliefs about Maharaji etc., people of all faiths will continue to believe what suits them, until they don't, irregardless of what the facts are. We all emerge from the Matrix at different times for different reasons. I too was once a premie who ardently defended Maharaji, and swore blind that it wasn't a cult.....

What is real? What is the truth? And what is myth? I liberated myself from the cult of Maharaji some years ago. It was one of the most important and exhilarating experiences of my life. I got myself back and in so doing felt a new kind of freedom. Now I make the effort and take the responsibilty of my own self realization...

Thanks and congratulations to everyone who has liberated themselves and have come forward to write their stories over these last years. Eventually the myths of Maharaji, and the power over our lives that came on the wings of these myths, will be left behind. As well as the myths of these long standing religions that provide the underpinnings of our Cult-ure.

AND WE WILL REMAIN.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 21:53:25 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Billy
Subject: The death of myths
Message:
Dear Billy,
Some myths don't need to die, IMO. I don't extrapolate from my premie experiences that all religions are cults. The info about what Jesus might have looked like, for example,(by the way he looked like a Jew from his time not like a thug) might replace the myth that he looked like an Aryan, but it doesn't make him any less revered by Christians.

And the fact that there isn't much evidence for Moses leading the Israelites doesn't mean that the stories (myths) of the Bible won't have meaning for people for many eons to come.

From what I have gathered from listening to Joseph Campbell, the allegorical and symbolic interpretations of the Bible and other myths are actually MORE meaningful than any literal interpretation could be. I am not anti-religion at all or anti the myths that give people's lives meaning. I am anti-cult though.
Helen the Unitarian whose been told she is going to hell many times but is still not anti-religion

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 00:15:17 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Billy
Subject: The death of myths
Message:
Great post, I like the cult/religion comparisson.
True I was once diluted so much so that I no longer excisted as a person and was so gung ho about the cult I couldn't see it for what it was.
It is painful and wonderful to be out and to regain perspective.
Hope you keep on posting.

Mercedes (taking a brake from doing my taxes, oh brother...)

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:23:03 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: x
To: Billy
Subject: The death of myths
Message:
Hi Billy,
Thanks for your refreshing perspective.
The only difference between a cult and religion
is good PR and time to allow the disrespectable
to somehow be respectable.(?) I suppose another ice age
may shape things up differently too. Hope to hear more from you.
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:17:06 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Billy
Subject: 100% Agree
Message:
I can no longer see any difference between our cult and other cults and mainstream religions, except that many adherents of mainstream religions do far more good in this world than any cult member I've met.

But trying to challenge those religions is a somewhat greater task than bringing down Maharaji's transparent sham. I'm not sure I care to take that on, except in a quiet, chatting with like-minded minds, manner.

John.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:19:50 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Our Cult?
Message:
I can no longer see any difference between our cult and...

I can't remember subscribing to one lately.


Good post Billy. I wonder what Jim, Sandy, Sucha, PatC will say when they finish their mud resutling? :)

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 18:07:09 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Our Cult?
Message:
May not have been lately, but cast your mind back.....:-)

John.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 23:39:13 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: you mean our ex-cult?----------nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 12:06:13 (GMT)
From: berni
Email: bernibe@flashmail.com
To: JHB
Subject: 100% Agree
Message:
Hi Billy - I enjoyed reading your post and agree with you about the myth-culture that we seem to be a part of. I've had an enjoyable Easter, watching 'The Greatest Story Ever Told', 'Jason and the Argonauts' etc. on the t.v. and listening to relatives tell me how wonderful the Easter Service was etc. while trying to be politely interested. I should say outright that I am no longer a believer in divine miracles such as turning water into wine, rising from the dead and faith having the power to make the lame walk and the blind see. Trouble is this means you are a heathen, anti-christ in their terminology so there is no opportunity for discussion
So many important events in our lives seem to be based on these myths, Christmas being the prime example ( or Diwali etc. ).
I also agree with JHB
' I can no longer see any difference between our cult and other cults and mainstream religions '
and, although the main purpose of this forum is to debunk DLM/ELAN VITAL/Knowledge etc. there are much wider issues. The premie cult is just one of many and, since leaving, I have gone back to being a seeker of truth/self improvement ( at least when I am not earning my daily bread ) based on reality rather than hope and faith ( although I still think they might have some value in the right context).
I don't think we can challenge all those that base their lives on an illusion, all we can do is try to find something that is real and share our discoveries - each step of the way openly accepting all challenges, enjoying a good argument and never being so dogmatic that we won't consider other peoples reasonable views.
I look forward to reading your future posts.
Berni
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:37:03 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Billy
Subject: Yo Billy, great post!
Message:
And I think I know who you are. Hope to meet you and significant other one of these seasons.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 11:33:00 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: billy
Subject: excellent post. will we see you again here?
Message:
always welcome the voice of intelligence and reason. i like reality better than fantasy.
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 17:31:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What do premies really want?
Message:
I wonder if you took an honest poll of current cult members, how many of them are really are content with Maharaji anymore? I'd imagine that some are dissatisifed that he's not more of the old, hindu God thing. Others, I guess, like it all just fine now. What interests me most, though, is the idea that at least some premies are secretly hoping this whole artifice finally collapses, allowing them to walk away without ever having to decide anything. I think premies who post here a lot possibly fall within this latter group.

So imagine the buzz in Amaroo and points yonder when word gets out that Maharaji met with Abi's father, commisserated as he did but ultimately side-stepped any responsibility, going so far as to suggest that he's somehow NOT in charge of EV. I guess it's all those silly announcements finally getting to his head: 'Maharaji has accpeted an invitation to ...' Has he started to believe them himself now? So what's he thinking? 'Jagdeo has accepted an invitation ....'?

NOT A LEAF MOVES WITHOUT YOUR GRACE, BABY, AND DON'T YOU FORGET IT!

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 17:26:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: They want to feel special...
Message:
Just like most people do.

1. Every cultmember gets to think they have something most other people don't have. They have the 'gift', even if they don't ever practice it, and even if they are miserable most of the time. Hence, they get to feel special, which is one of the essential elements of a cult.

2. Then, within the cult, some premies think they are even more special because they get to sit close, Maharaji talks to them, they get 'special' or 'important' service (participation) and those that don't can strive and pray for that grace to hit them someday. This advancement is, of course, smoothed along by large donations to Mahararji, if the premie has the means.

Some premies are satisfied with item one, above. For those who aren't there's item two.

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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 00:20:22 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: They want to feel special... plus item #3 - guilt.
Message:
Or maybe it is item #2.5.

They don't regularly practice K so feel good ol' Christian / Catholic / Jewish guilt for not practicing. So they go to a video now and then, go to an event once a year and give some money all out of a sense of duty. This is popularly known as 'giving K a chance'. As in keeping K on the edge of my life but never either committing or leaving.

I think that many if not most current participants don't really practice as you said, Joe, in #1 but like having the catch all fall back position of having a 'teacher'. That still has caché in some quasi-new age circles and justifies the unexplainable. I have mentioned before that many premies tend to prefer M as some sort of mythological figurehead like the Pope who has a sort of aura of credibility and unassailable character. (Jim, The Turner Syndrome?) The less they know about M the better in their book.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 23:32:05 (GMT)
From: Will
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Once hoping m would disappear
Message:
Jim said above
'What interests me most, though, is the idea that at least some premies are secretly hoping this whole artifice finally collapses, allowing them to walk away without ever having to decide anything.'

When I read that it struck a chord. Years ago when I was a premie, m told a piloting story, saying that he put his finger on the cockpit windshield and that if it shattered, he would die. The windshield was protecting him. I remember thinking, well that's an obvious and stupid story, and so what if he died? I would be free of all this without making any decision to leave.

It took this web site and some courage to leave. Many thanks to the folks that put up and maintain this site.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:13:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Premies want M to change or get rid of EV
Message:
EV is the problem. DLM/EV brought the dysfunctional mahatmas and primitive Hinduism to the west. EV wrote the revisionism. EV is a cold uncaring institution that stands between premies and their beloved. The Holy Rev also hates EV. He said it last month in Portland. EV is run by imperfect mortals who just don't really understand what M wants. Unlike M, they are not perfect.

EV/VI are the people who edit the videos and ruin them. EV harbors child-molesters. Premies want EV to be out of the picture so that they can just be alone with their precious Master. EV is a cult. EV created the cult. EV is the bogeyman. And M is doing his best to get rid of EV. He now broadcasts directly into premies homes bypassing EV and soon there will be no need for an organization.

Here is an instance of this thinking lifted from a post by a premie on Life's Great:

One high-light of the Portland event was when Maharaji used the word 'Master'. And he said 'I wonder how the people who edit the videos are going to react to this?'. He went on about how he couldn't use the word 'Master' any more because it presented the wrong image. But the word 'guru' was coming back into fashion. Maybe he could use that. He said maybe he should just say 'you know who', to describe himself.

So he went on talking and everytime he said 'you know who' everybody would just crack up. It was too funny.

So I was watching the rebroadcast of the Portland event on Dish last Thursday, and at the end it occured to me they edited the whole episode out. It just wasn't there. You would have thought that the editors would have gotten the message to let Maharaji be Maharaji, but instead they just edited it out. Maybe it was just too controversial.

I think Maharaji thinks of himself in the traditional Indian guru or master sense. Those people who are around him, who are trying to run the show, like the Mishlers or Dettmers or whoever is doing it now, want to present him in a more watered-down way. He becomes a 'humanitarian leader' or a 'meditation teacher'. They want to make him more acceptable to the general public. Their mistake is always to try to mold him into something different, than what he is.

Does he allow himself to be manipulated, or does he exert total control?

Yes, premies would like to see M kill the big bad bogeyman of EV then they can all continue in their delusion that they are not in a cult but just have the most inspiring best friend in the world.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:59:03 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Premies want M to change or get rid of EV
Message:
Thanks for that little gem Pat. What amazes me is that the premies don't see that when m puts down EV he is in actual fact putting them down. Who else do they really think EV is? Some mythical group of premies who run m's life from afar. Give me a break, it is not for nothing that a lot of premies refer to m as The Boss. If only they would stop and think for a bit they would realise that m is showing his true feeling for them i.e 'I hate the lot of you'
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:33:07 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Premies want M to change or get rid of EV
Message:
The fact that LIFE'S GREAT allowed this to be published makes me wonder if it isn't a trial balloon. Maybe Rawat is about to come back with all his powers(again). It's seen as necessary to hold onto the faithful and possibly bring back some 'slink aways'.
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 19:53:33 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave (Head Librarian)
Email: None
To: Mr. Mind
Subject: Hang on a mo'
Message:
The forum Lifes (sic) Great, is the premie forum that I started when I was trying to get premies to post on the web. It now belongs to Chris Dickey who is a premie, of course.

Don't get carried away now. This is just a place where premies can post freely without censorship.

Maharaji is a cad and a bounder, but he is sometimes funny too, all the more so to those who worship and adore him. For those of us who don't, the jokes get a bit stale after a while, a bit childish, particularly when used to cover up his own past mistakes.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 18:29:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave (Head Librarian)
Subject: Here, read this one - it's oh so funny
Message:
Here's a premie's post from CD's site. It's hilarious the way they're trying to get this scapegoat thing happening. Check it out:

David, i remember him saying that 'i can't wait to see the look on the face of the person who tries to edit this one'.....of course, that
must have become a challenge to whoever did....here's what i think: There are many wannabees around Maharaji....and they are creatures who need to feel powerful...a coverup for insecurity...when these people secure positions of power, they don't give it up.....years ago Maharaji came out and said that he wanted 'well rounded premies'...meaning of course that if everybody kept moving around in service, then each individual premie would eventually learn to do lots of different kinds of service...making well rounded a reality...there are many reasons for this, perhaps the best one is to
keep us from getting on ego trips about our particular service....without Maharaji at the helm, this ship would have crashed and burned a long time ago.....Maharaji once said to Bob Mishler...'Bob, one day they are going to erect a monument to you and on it will be inscribed: for Bob Mishler, the man who saved the world and lost his soul.'...........Take a look around Maharaji, instead of taking the opportunity to learn to be more kind and loving, the corporate types have surrounded him (to save the world?) and I do believe that they are still trying to figure a way to present him to others.....in a big way that is wherein they will be included in the limelight.....but check it out, Maharaji served his notice to everyone that he was and is free....that he is not going to let people schedule his life, that he has the satellite, that must scare the people who have tried to control who gets knowledge and how....he has the DVD by which to get 'knowledge' to people in hospitals....and those who can't travel to programs.....and there are plenty of videos out there which are full length....what is to stop anyone from making copies and sending them around?...a Visions coprywrite?...I think not....at any rate, I will call Visions and ask if they plan to release the 'full length version'......so should you and any premie who wants to hear Maharaji's latest Satsang in it's entirely....if they were not as lucky as us to be there......cosmic traveller

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 20:11:42 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, I want to meet the power behind the throne!
Message:
So there are others running the show, editing videos so that Maharaji can't get his true message across? My mind is truly boggled by this idea, and I'm going to stop writing this post while I try to figure it out.

John taking a break because his brain is blowing a fuse.

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 21:42:37 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I understand - he's trying to be Mao!
Message:
Mao Tsetung started the cultural revolution because his power had been challenged, following the Mao induced famine, by more sensible elements. To regain his power, he went over the heads of the communist party leaders, and worked up the simpler supporters to re-establish his cult god status.

So are there really elements within EV that are trying to control Maharaji, and are posts like this on CD's forum part of Maharaji's master plan to re-establish his power?

Naah! Maharaji doesn't have Mao's machiavellian skills, and I seriously doubt if there is a single person within Maharaji's inner circle trying to manipulate him.

John the getting over this absurd idea.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 08:32:12 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sunday Sermon: ''Oh, how the mighty have fallen''
Message:
I'm sure most of you old-time Fivers have heard all this before - just another phase of exitting the cult. That's why I called it a ''sermon.'' A ''sermon'' is usually boring stuff that you've heard before and everyone knows that the preacher's preaching to himself anyway.

I responded to Abi's most recent post saying that I haven't felt so angry with Rev Rawat in a while. This anger has been there for a while but it really began to grow by leaps and bounds last year when I went back into the cult after being a Lone Ranger for 17 years.

My final drip occurred last year when I began to meet some inner circle premies who kept telling me that Rawat hated EV and so did they. Things obviously needed fixing but whenever I suggested a fix it was regarded as a criticism of Miragey.

How is it possible to hold these two thoughts in your head at the same time? One: ''You know who'' and ''those in the know'' think EV stinks. Two: Trying to fix EV is regarded as a criticism of Miragey. Come on, premies, that is called insanity. EV is Miragey's brainchild or should I say Brain Fart?

Perhaps Abi has found satisfaction. I hope that she can at least feel that she has been heard and that her words have been taken seriously and that she is no longer crying in the wilderness. But, I'm afraid I take Rev Rawat's words with a salt mine. He can be charming especially if you have given your heart and soul to him (as has Abi's father) but he also is utterly unscrupulous and two-faced.

The Jagdeo issue will not go away because of this. It may become less of a cause celebre but it is a part of the jigsaw puzzle. I know that I can't do much to bring Rev Rawat to accountability legally or morally and I may die before he is exposed. But I will let my indignation be heard. ELAN VITAL IS REV RAWAT'S BUSINESS. Anything else is a lie.

I'm not very good at being angry or indignant because I'm a pleasure loving person and don't enjoy those emotions but revenge, as it is said in the classics, is a dish best eaten cold. Excuse me if I let my Jewish blood speak for a second: ''Smite mine enemies, oh Lord!'' (This really only works if said with a New York accent, a deadpan face and a world-weary shrug.)

I'll be quite satisfied to be able to needle the little squirt and keep him squirmin with my sermons. And I'm a loudmouth. Takes a lot to shut me up when I'm pissed. (In UK that means drunk. In US it means coldly angry. I mean the latter.)

Why? Because 28 years ago he told me that if I gave him my love that he would give me peace. He told me to give him my sufferings, to trust him so totally that I would surrender the reins of my life to him. How can any premie (except the K-lite crowd of the past 15 years) forget that? He told me that he was greater than god and that he was the supreme being in all the universe who had come with greater power than ever before.

Now he tells me he was only joking and he was doing the fifth (tongue in cheek) technique all along. Give me a big fucking break. The only possible slack that I could cut this guy is if he tells me that he went through the same brainwashing by his own father.

My letter to Rev Rawat:

Come on, Prempal, you know I am a very kind man and would forgive you and embrace you in a heart beat if you just posted here and said you are also now an ex-premie; that you had seen through the spell that your father cast over you; that you too were brainwashed and deluded into thinking that another mortal was god; that you also suffered under the weight of a primitive superstition and wasted this one precious life that you have been given.

Perhaps you think that the fake feelgood don't-worry-be-happy bullshit that you are peddling is your way of doing good and making the most out of life. You are mistaken. You would add much more to this world by sitting outside of the Trancas Canyon Supermarket begging with a polystyrene coffee cup.

I hope you will post here within the next week saying that you have seen the light and have been deluded by an atavistic Hindu voodoo and that you will do penance for your sins by joining Mother Theresa's order of nuns in Calcutta bathing lepers. (I know nun drag isn't as fancy as your old Krishna drag but...)

If you don't, I will take that as another insult; more proof that you are a heartless, soulless, money-grubbing fraud. It's the 21st century. If you don't know what's being said about you on the net then you must be living in a haze of cognac and Halcion. Your life is a charade. You are a a pompous, puffed up little fool if you think that money and power can bring you happiness.

But I'll end this letter on a friendly note. What do you want to be when you grow up?

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 21:39:11 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: PatC
Subject: Yes, EV is Maharaji
Message:
For those of us who have recently been involved in the cult it is very apparent that EV is the same as Maharaji. Perhaps, Rawat is jokingly referring to EV as the individuals who are tasked with whatever responsibilities they have to carry out 'the mission', whatever that is.

Certainly, we've seen the size and the name of the organization change throughout the years. And now more than ever is the lean and mean organization EV more Rawat's than ever before. From what I can tell it's a tiny organization of leaderless volunteers.

But, what is still true and even more so is that it wiggles at his whim as it always has.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:37:03 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: '' Oh ,how the fallen have a mighty ....
Message:
....great 'fuck you 'conviction that they can get away with it.

They may well be right...up to a point ...but, the pen is mightier than the sword .

Nice to see you loosing your rag a bit , I lose mine all the time , but that's because I'm often pissed UK style .

Keep at the little chisler : Pat Dorrity

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:52:01 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sunday Sermon: ''Oh, how the mighty have fallen''
Message:
Thank you dear Pat, yes it hits the nail on the head and unfortunately I don't think the rev will come down from his pedestal.
As I said to a premi friend of mine, why people are still kissing his feet if he is just another mortal walking amongst us?
Anyway I have to say that reading the posts helps me with recovering my critical thinking abilities that have been dormant for 26 f@#*ing years. I can see the damage.
Anyway Happy Easter you folks.
Mercedes
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:16:00 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sunday Sermon: ''Oh, how the mighty have fallen''
Message:
Dear Pat,
Well that's better than any sermon I could hear at any church this Easter Sunday. I salute you and I agree with you absolutely.

It's tempting to want to be high on Halcion and cognac but the majority of us have chosen NOT to have yet another addiction on our backs. Instead we have tried to look this demon (our strange journey as Maharaji's children) square in the face. We've cried over it, and we've tried to heal ourselves and pull one another out of the abyss.

M could show some of the strength we all have shown by facing facts and coming clean.

I won't put my pleasure and joy on hold waiting for him to do that (and I know you won't either) but he could do it if he really had the guts.

Maharaji, do you have the guts? It all boils down to that, doesn't it?

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 13:55:51 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You hit the nail on the head, Pat! (nt)
Message:
xx
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 13:44:19 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Amen, brother!!! (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 04:48:28 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: loafji@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Having no past
Message:
something ulf said in his tender post... about finding that he has nothing to talk about over the 'cult years' - has just struck a chord with me.

I am becoming aware of a real psychological damage to myself - almost an enlargement of a blind spot- or a black hole.... that all the time I was practicing and being weak with gratitude... my grip and investment in and commitment to my own psychology was being weakened.

I am not reccesarily implying that this was done intentionally... but it is very similar to a process of hypnosis which the 4 techniques definitely work on...

I have 20 years where i was 'out of myself' or 'beyond myself' in a state of euphoria or 'grace' where all the phenomena of daily life... the kindness of my parents, of strangers, of real working people was all hi-jacked... and I was thankful only to maharaji.

He postioned himself as the repositry for all good things... no blame... all credit. The techniques of meditation.. the aspirant process, the social and 'service' structures surrounding events, participation and M... all perpetuate a subtle displacement, that a psychological blind spot - THE SAME ONE THAT MAKES LITTLE DUCKLINGS FOLLOW THE FIRST THING THEY SEE - is available to M - and remains vulnerable....

Practicing Knowledge keeps this needy place 'moist' - and M is positioned as the unspoken answer to an un-asked question.

I have to say that I realise how fully he understands this process - as I am typing these words i am reminded of his own - and despite a little myth making, I think the mechanics of the whole operation are painfully visible to him.... it would drive me to drink too.

I am not making any moral judgements here - perhaps Maharaji you are more in focus to me at the moment after Abi's post. Yes you are a human being. I am glad. Your charm is immense - your confidence supreme.... but we are all fucked up individuals in the middle of something which even God like and presidential self confidence will not answer.

M is the product of this vacuum... he has been filling a void ever since he stepped onto a stage - and so he is pulled further and further into the illusion that HE is the attraction... the same belief which affects his followers.

The black hole of NEED which has been opened up is not going to easily be wallpapered over. The cracks in the houses of Premies are monumental - and so we have to hang a picture over it. And whose picture ?

I have no option but to jump into this void. I dont know what will happen ... but the hole in my life which has been left can no longer be met by M or elan vital's desperate marketing... the real threat to Elan Vital is the very product they mine... NEED - as long as they can turn it into gratitude... they are on a gold run...but it is a bit like keeping the monkey busy going up and down a pole - sooner or later - and it may be 20 years later - the hole in the wall will cause a person to return - and finding that M no longer fits or satisfies the hole which has grown... then questions will be asked.

It is like opening Pandoras box... be very careful before you go drilling holes in peoples psyche..... you may tap into something which EVEN YOU -= oh mythical Black hole sized master - which even you cannot contain or control.

The depths of the subconcious.......are very different in the west from the east I feel. There, many of these issues do not arise because the social and religious structure takes the strain... but in the west - the very strain is of preserving an essentially Eastern social structure... something which without a sense of community and of a tribe and of village elders is an unnatural phenomenon, and one which cannot be 'duplicated' or replaced by pubic relations.

I am glad (socially) that the big tribal chief met with Abis father and wept tears. I am glad that the social system of accountability - which has been on trial here over Jagdeo - has at least produced this result - which would not have happened without this place.

We are all glad of this place - but especially M should be very glad of this place. It is healthy. It will lance the boil.

The more that free speech and thought is editied, corporatized and managed within Elan vital - the greater the NEED for THIS PLACE - not a duplicate 'Oh arent we all having a lovely time' forum - but this uneditable house of the unspeakable.

After all - every KING had his FOOL to remind him of his mortality. And all the Kings of the Great Royal families were as righteous as you are Maharaji. And they were all fakes and idiots underneath.

ho hum... such is life

Loaf

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 20:41:13 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Jumping in the void (or plenum)
Message:
All power to you bro, and thanks for your post.

love Katie (rather submerged meself right now but then again the void is a plenum)

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 07:15:50 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: whats a plenum.. and do I have one ? (nt)
Message:
arp
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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 09:08:04 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: whats a plenum.. and do I have one ?
Message:
Heh heh heh - well, you'd have to check with the torch under the bedclothes...

Sorry if I was abtuse. It means fullness, and is an alternate concept for emptiness. The physicist David Bohm has a whole theory of the universe that is pretty cool, in which everything emerges from the Implicate Order - a vast, empty nothingness, yet teeming with the potency of life. He also calls the implicate order the 'Plenum.' Things unfold from the implicate into the Explicate Order (us, butterflies, galaxies, People magazine, etc.) which then ENfolds back into the implicate, and back out, and back in, etc. Interestingly (at least to me) this unfoldment/enfoldment doesn't just happen at death and birth, but several times a second. We are always dissolving and being recreated.

I like the idea of the plenum when thinking of (or experiencing, as I am), the void, because I sometimes find that over the basic concept of the 'void' (Buddhist sunyata - emptiness, etc.) is overlaid a transparent, slightly pessimistic belief system about life - as in 'it's all really a void,' which is really an emotional statement about one's relationship to life, rather than an actual realization of the void. My plunges into the void, while scary on the way down, have convinced me, once I let go and stop resisting and trying to control the vastness, that it is in fact a benign and indeed loving field of possibility that wants to birth me into my highest possible future. But it is sometimes fronted by an 'impostor void' that is really my own depression outpictured.

Hope this made sense. Oh well. It was good for me. love Katie

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Date: Mon, Apr 16, 2001 at 16:09:37 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: apple4256@datastreet.com
To: Katie Darling
Subject: whats a plenum.. and do I have one ?
Message:
Yes it does.
And I think your assessment is correct.
The void as discussed does carry a negative charge.
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 18:16:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Great post, Loaf. I am reclaiming my past on FV
Message:
I am meeting people here with whom I shared a dream 30 years ago and I am finding that they really are the best people of my generation.
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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:38:52 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: oooh I just realised something else !
Message:
its just that the process of practicing K and 'feeling the feeling' replaces the inner self with a luminous state of 'meditation' - in which personal responsibility is negated.

Ego can then take on the form most dangerous .... I AM this feeling.. LIFE and Me are inseperable...there is ONLY this feeling.....

It seems a subtle and dangerous price to pay for self preservation.... and yet it is so beautiful, so blissful, so attractive...

As the atmosphere around M (at events... in meetings etc) defines M... and also as M (being THE important figure in his social circle) defines the environment around him... the two become inseperable.

In the same way... the feeling of Knowledge ... the feeling of THAT feeling is defined by its boundaries... by which I mean that a Knowledge session would not feel the same in a bus shelter, from a tramp, without any introduction at all.

So mental and social focus is all.

The staging produces the God. Its something we learned from the Egyptians.

If you build it, he will come. Supply and demand.

And all the messiah has to do... is not blow it.

Its a licence to print money....bliss = gratitude = $$$

Forgive me for going on like this - I am just refocussing on MY issues so that the jagdeo situation - deplorable as it is - does not over-politicize me.

The Pope has a lot more to answer for.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 05:49:08 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: focusing on you own issues
Message:
I know. This last week reading here has been hard yet revealing for me as well.

Since I don't feel there is a thing I can do to help with the Jugdeo situation, all I can do is read the threads and process what it means to me and what has really happened to so many people who were involved with M over these years.

I'm thinking how wonderful the net is, how cults are getting exposure they never would have gotten in so much vouume and so quickly.
And the premies who do lie and cover for M are not able to do so without a critical audience.
The pope may not have been able to leave so much unanswered if the web had been around.eeks a recovering catholic saying such things this close to easter sunday.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 10:40:26 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Its heartbreaking
Message:
I am made so sad and sorry that so many people in so many 'institutions' have been hurt, raped , abused, injured....... it breaks my heart that some people when they are given a form of 'authority' - be they teachers, Nuns and Brothers, Mahatmas, Childrens' Homes workers... and all the very such people who SHOULD be worthy of the positions of trust - in loco parentis - are not able to handle that responsibilty without taking advantage of it - either socially, emotionally or sexually.

And it is soo horrible for Abi and susan and all the others to have no means of complaint... I know that in many ways the catholic Church is far more widespread - but no worse - because the countless cases of child abuse that are brought each year are hushed up - and the offending Sister or Brother or Priest just moved to another school or home or parish.

I dont know to make of M's meeting - I agree I suppose with Jim below - when he congratulates M for letting the drawbridge down... I know that socially the impact of the 40 minute meeting will be impressive... people feel *lucky* to get his time...which puts them on an unequal footing from the start... I hope M is truly glad that we are all here supporting and cheering Abi and the others on.

After all we are all on the same side.... and I also feel that as Human beings who are dissatisfied with the culture of Elan Vital, that he would have a lot more fun coming to play with us rather than perpetuating the same old culture of yes men and self satisfaction.

So - abandon Elan Vital - M - come and join us in our attempts as an enquiring human beings to understand what has passed between us - and let all the caged birds, pretty, or injured as they are... let 'em go free.

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:07:49 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: It is heartbreaking
Message:
Hey Loaf, just wanted to say your post that started this thread was brilliant. All I can say is I agree with you that knowledge and belief in maharaji do cause damage to the brain and to one's ability to process the world in a rational/satisfying way.

I think what you're saying is despite our best efforts,there are some things that cannot be fixed. I think a good percentage of us will have to 'live around' this stuf the rest of our lives. (That's Katie H's brilliant term, and it doesn't mean denying, but realizing that some damage will never completely go away.) It's a rough thing to look at square in the face but you've obviously looked that demon square in the jaws.

Despite the damage done, I keep remembering something Joe Whalen said, that 'living well is the best revenge.' That idea has helped me alot. Even if many of us are slowly 'losing my religion' in the words of REM, there is still alot worth living for...

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Date: Sun, Apr 15, 2001 at 15:25:27 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Thanks helen (nt) and a x
Message:
xx
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