Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 22:15:37 (GMT)
From: Apr 15, 2001 To: Apr 25, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Jim -:- This deserves a thread of its own (repost) -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:44:08 (GMT)
__ Wildflower -:- The Great Purge -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 13:30:03 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The Great Purge -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:36:38 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hey, if not for Smith I'd still be in the ashram -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 15:46:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- That's right, you don't get it -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:28:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Irony, Fransesca..... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:22:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- My iron was low today -- thanks! n/t -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 23:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- The clothes weren't the issue -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 19:57:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- There was no 'right ' w ay to be ... that's the -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:12:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Brilliant -- no rules, so we were always wrong! -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 23:53:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- What happened to Jiva? -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 22:36:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- What happened to Jiva? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:21:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Speaking of Smith, does anyone know.... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:32:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- I cannot remember David Smith... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 16:53:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Cynthia, count your blessings..nt -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:09:47 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Before the major shift from Malibu to Miami -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:15:19 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Anyone in Bay Area remember retreat in Kentfield -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 03:20:29 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Essen -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:44:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Essen -the only fun there was that swimming pool -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ulf -:- Essen my first festival -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:50:30 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- Torn apart: the double bind -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:07:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Shades of Mr. Divine Right Hand Man -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:45:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Great analysis -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:44:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Great analysis -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:19:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks for describing that further, Katie D. -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 15:49:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Love to you too, Katie darling and health and -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:29:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- You two are up late! ot -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:32:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- You two are up late! ot -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 15:04:25 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- It was in Forest Knolls, Pat -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:34:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- That was my liberation meeting -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:37:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Forest Knolls - the only fun there was the hot tub -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:10:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- No he had been exiled to Phoenix -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 19:54:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The Miraloma 'Experience' -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:27:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- More on the Miraloma Experience -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:48:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Joe, did Dr. John Horton get sued by some women.. -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:19:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Joe, did Dr. John Horton get sued by some women.. -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 20:34:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for filling in on Miraloma -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 00:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Not true Francesca. -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:19:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- I trust your word on that Joe -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:25:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- While you are are reminiscing, Joy and I are too -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 02:07:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- LOVE you, Joy and Pat and Chuck and Andy! n/t -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 03:13:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- FA! Francesca person has just outed some Andy guy! -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 03:37:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- And now Joe and Kevin are here and we're having a -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 03:52:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- God, what a score for the WPC hit squad! -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 04:01:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- No dope, just wine. Wish you were here. NT -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:22:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Wish I was there too! n/t -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:29:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- That's just what Joy and I were saying -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Forest Knolls? You were there? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:04:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yep -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:55:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- The chubby guy -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:39:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- The chubby guy, I don't think it was Dennis -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:15:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Wildflower -:- I was there too -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 13:34:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I remember you being there -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:18:55 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- BTW, it's Katie D's post re Instructor Training (n -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 03:08:40 (GMT)

Jim -:- Could someone fill in a few blanks, please? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:16:26 (GMT)
__ Suzanne -:- Could someone fill in a few blanks, please? -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:17:03 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- EVERYONE SHOULD READ SUZANNE'S POST -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:02:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Suzanne -:- It wasn't a testimonial -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:33:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK, THEN NO ONE SHOULD READ IT (NT) -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:27:58 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Being Grateful -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:26:30 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- I went in '97... -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 04:11:35 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Hey, where is the Kool-Aid stand located? nt -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:47:43 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- They're admitting they have only 1800 campers? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:00:32 (GMT)
__ Way -:- What I'm wondering -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 14:23:37 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- They mean a place to barf.... -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:52:02 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- Oh that's funny! nt -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:49:21 (GMT)
__ Peter Howie -:- Could someone fill in a few blanks, please? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:31:57 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Wildlife refuge. -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:54:59 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- What! No cognac? Only beer or wine! -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 07:56:17 (GMT)
__ __ Wildflower -:- Ironic, isn't it? Or is it? n/t -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 13:37:43 (GMT)
__ Tony Walker (Aussi Ji) -:- Anyone for a spot of marsupial hunting? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:51:18 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Mate. This is Australia. -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:16:25 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- I'm confused salam. -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:00:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Peter Howie -:- I'm confused salam. -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:23:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Cheezan Rice? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:26:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Peter Howie -:- Cheezanrice?Yes and sounds very Tibetan to boot!nt -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:05:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Anth, here is some Jagdeo info from Sucha.. -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:46:12 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- Could someone fill in a few blanks, please? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:12:45 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- you can buy a newsletter for 1.00. US..... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 03:01:17 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Not sure how they do it outdoors -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:27:00 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- Not sure how they do it outdoors- whaaat? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:14:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mr. Williams -:- Not sure how they do it outdoors- whaaat? -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 01:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Bollocks, Mr Williams, just because the music was -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 17:48:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Mr.Williams-thanks,now how about the truth, please -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:14:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's pathetic, Mr. Williams. Simply pathetic -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 01:33:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- No lip-synch but music is recorded -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:56:43 (GMT)
__ __ Tony(Aussi Ji) -:- No, Pat! please it is torture just thinking about -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:58:42 (GMT)

michael donner -:- jagdeo and m's comments -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:07:17 (GMT)
__ Wildflower -:- jagdeo and m's comments -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:00:25 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- jagdeo and m's comments -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 02:34:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Wildflower -:- jagdeo and m's comments -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 13:54:58 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- That's no way to bookmake, Mike -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Donner, you giving odds, or straight bet? nt -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:43:47 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- what I heard from DLM insider way back when:r.e.m. -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 07:02:13 (GMT)
__ Tony Walker (Aussi Ji) -:- Depends if it Aussie or US dollars -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:05:33 (GMT)
__ salam -:- jagdeo and m's comments -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:31:10 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You're on! -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:32:19 (GMT)
__ __ donner -:- You're on! -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 23:53:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill--(ah, jim...) -:- Sure! You lost the last bet with no real evidence, -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:39:25 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- I dont have ten dollars but I think... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:56:53 (GMT)

la-ex -:- Is m's Portland declaration related to jagdeo? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:22:46 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- He's been trying to distance himself for ages. -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:24:29 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- He is prepareing for the mag article? and IRS?.nt -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:50:55 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- There was talk of EV being disbanded last year -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:43:57 (GMT)

Ian Dury -:- Tim Gallway -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:14:55 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- Tim Gallway -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:09:43 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Tim Gallway - not another hot air salesman -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Pat, you should be a business guru yourself. -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:10:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Anth, I often wondered what sort of character -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:41:45 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Here's more Tim Gallwey sites -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 21:24:47 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- The Inner Game of Cleaning the Septic Tank -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:34:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jan Freeman -:- The Inner Game of Cleaning the Septic Tank -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 07:47:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Reduction to Absurdity, Jan -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 20:47:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Jan, I think Joe was being reasonable -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 19:15:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Jan, what are you saying?Whats your point? nt -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 16:18:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Know It All -:- Naming the Nameless -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:36:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ The First Know It All -:- Hey you did it again -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 07:54:14 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Gallwey was just another fucked-up bongo to me -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 22:21:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- I think he was just having problems -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:17:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You can say that again -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:43:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- You say -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 19:50:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't worry, Chris, just have a nice day, 'kay? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 23:00:37 (GMT)
__ More Sugar -:- Tim Gallway -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:55:15 (GMT)
__ Nick Danger, 3rd Eye -:- iChange--management consultants -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:33:13 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- the agony of change -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 16:09:06 (GMT)
__ __ Gary Epton -:- iChange--management consultants -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:26:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Churning out the toasters . -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:47:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- Churning out the toasters . -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:40:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Churning out the toasters . -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 16:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Good one bin -- you still need to -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:32:57 (GMT)

cq -:- How blatantly deceptive can they get? -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:16:33 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- How blatantly deceptive can they get? -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:37:06 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- payments -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- It's the same old story as the 70s -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 19:35:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- One of my last 'drips'... -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:26:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- God, it sounds creepy -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:21:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- It was plain old Creepy and Weird... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 16:03:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- The toilet zone -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:51:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Cynthia, I was trying to remember a toilet joke -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:35:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for the update -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- As I've said before to fringe PWKs: ''Go back!'' -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Mercedes -:- One of my last 'drips'... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:06:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- One of my last 'drips'... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 03:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Maharaji -:- You're in your mind, Epton -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:40:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- You're in your mind, Epton -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:48:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Maharaji -:- That's not good enough, asshole! -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 00:00:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Oh Maharaji, ---BEST OF FORUM you asshole! -:- Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 06:00:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- That's not good enough, asshole! -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 15:13:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hysterical!! This is a must read! -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:06:13 (GMT)

Steve Quint -:- Hello From The Front -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:01:39 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Hello From The Front -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:54:51 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Hello From The Front -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 16:16:02 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Hello buddy -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:19:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Hello buddy -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:41:13 (GMT)

Marianne -:- EV 'Trainings' -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:20:24 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- EV 'Trainings' - from JM's site -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:15:37 (GMT)
__ Mercedes -:- EV 'Trainings' -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 15:18:54 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- EV 'Trainings' - see Atlanta 'Propagation Seminar' -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:05:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Pat, still waiting for the video of that. -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:23:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Oops, Joe, I forgot -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Oops, Joe, I forgot -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:19:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Okay, will make copy for you today NT -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:22:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Joe, you forgot to take the video.... NT -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:25:58 (GMT)

G -:- Valerio Pascotto -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:53:37 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- How embarrassing for Pepperdine -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:16:44 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- His company should be named EGOS..... -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:37:25 (GMT)
__ Mr. Mind -:- re: Valerio's role in the cult -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 12:26:27 (GMT)
__ G -:- some web posts by Valerio -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:23:58 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- This web post is priceless -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:12:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- Pat Conlon, would you translate please...nt -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:24:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Valerio:avoid judgments ... of ''right and wrong'' -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:55:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Valerio:avoid judgments ... of ''right and wrong'' -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:42:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Valerio: lets all send him individually generated  -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 07:37:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- let's send his clients some of his quotes -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:35:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Rev Feelgood uses that jargon-generator NT -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 22:11:20 (GMT)
__ G -:- Birkman method -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:07:50 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Sounds like Guru Feelgood learned Birkman method -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 07:40:13 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- I knew it , it's all about ... -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:56:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Clue me in on the symbolism -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:38:45 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:44:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: This deserves a thread of its own (repost)
Message:
In a thread below, Katie Darling talks about her own involvement and exposure to the Instructor Training sessions in Malibu. Although she seems to start right in the middle of a thought or sentence, if you follow her closely you'll probably get the gist of what she's saying:

in Malibu sometimes in the late 70's early 80's. I was their support person, making sure they got fed and taken care of as they went through their 'training,' which consisted of hours of satsang all day, occasional visits to the Res. to get patronized by the 'family,' and then evening satsang, the highlight of which would be the attendance of Claudia, or someone who lived close to MJ.
I was allowed to sit in on the evening satsang because I was the instructors' support person. I was able to do this service because I was considered a 'wealthy premie' through my husband (this was a bit exaggerated, but got my hubby and I good seats). Anyway, the group of initiators-to-be that I was mothering were mostly women, and serious shopaholics. They kept asking me to take them shopping, and they were incredibly sweet to me (more than to many other people) and it took me a while to catch on that they wanted me to subsidize their wardrobes. In fact, it wasn't until we were actually IN the fancy stores that I realized that they didn't have money of their own. Looking back, I can't remember how far I went for it. I know I bought them some stuff, but I felt incredibly manipulated. I mean, this wasn't basic nice clothing, but real super-designer stuff.

And I also felt, and feel, a lot of compassion for them. They were like trapped animals. Not allowed to have sex or sexual interest ever again, yet they were a sexy bunch. There was all kinds of food obsession and of course shopping is the new sex (I just read that somewhere). So I can understand their desperation. Having reached the pinnacle of their world (I mean, I always wanted to be an initiator, and felt bad that I had married and blown my chances, because I thought it was the closest place to MJ) they were actually miserable, deep inside. They have all left and married now, although I think some of them are still premies. One is strung out on drugs.

In retrospect I'm so glad that I never got back into the ashram/instructor system after leaving in 1976. Although I felt torn, and that I had blown it, at least I didn't suffer the extreme deprivation on all levels that many of my friends went through in trying to sincerely dedicate their lives. Somehow, for me, my ashram life in the early years, much of which was in Spain and South America, was mostly fun. But the later years the ashram scene really looked like a hell-realm.

Now, for those of you who were around then, I ask you, wasn't this whole Instructor Training Program one of the weirdest things you ever heard of? This was the ear of marathon satsangs. We'd all whimpered back into the doghouse after Maharaji reminded us, through our National Co-ordinators, at Essen, Germany in late '76 that devotion was the ticket. The '19 day programs' soon followed which, you'll recall, were overt challenges Maharaji mounted against our budding confidence and independence (if those words ever apply in a cult setting). He specifically said that he wanted to string all these programs together to help us show our minds who was really boss. If it meant that we lost jobs, even careers, in the process, well, good premies weren't supposed to care about that, right? We had a lot of catching up to do.

So, yeah, we had all these programs, culminating later that year in Rome. The devotional gunk was now laced wtih poisonous guilt and self-flagellation as we'd all bit the apple a bit, according to Maharaji. We'd all peeked a bit too much at the world. That had to stop. So Maharaji just flooded us with self-esteem crushing prayers, ugly models of self-hatred for us to adopt. 'Oh my Guru Maharaji, you're great, I suck. I don't even have the right to call your name, yet I have to. These fucking vultures....'

And to make matters worse, the pressure was now on for everyone to move into the ashram if they were 'serious' about this whole thing, serious about learning devotion and for ashram premies to apply to be Initiators because, hell, there was no getting out any way anyway.

It was in this climate that Maharaji started these interminable brain-washing programs called Initiator Training. This is the stuff Katie's talking about. These bizarre black holes scared the hell out of me. The idea of sitting together daily for literally months, sometimes, and doing nothing but talking about how great Maharaji is and you're not, well that was freaky. And, like I say, these groups sometimes kept going for months before Maharaji decided he'd fried them enough and could finally 'trust' them.

I guess I'm just asking if anyone else ever got a good, close-up view of this bizarre chapter in the cult's history. I know that the effect bled over into all the communities as we started thinking it was normal to spend our every waking moment sitting around repeating ourselves. But I'd love to hear more what it was like for the participants if anyone knows.

Thanks

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 13:30:03 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Jim et al
Subject: The Great Purge
Message:
What I remember most was the afterblast we got in the ashram when m released the 'newly inspired' instructors after a 'tune up'. Of particularly grim recollection was the great SF purge, conducted by the verenably insane, frothing-at-the-mouth-to- clean-it(us?)-up David Smithoid. Joe, I'm sure you would remember this, as my recollection is that Sir Smith emptied your closet of all but two or three work shirts, which he gave out to others who had no need of them because of the kinds of work they did. As I recall, the atmosphere most closely resembled one of those gigantic Nazi book burnings or the similar kind of 'cultural cleansing' done in communist China.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:36:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: The Great Purge
Message:
Hey Wildflower, how are you? WHO are you? Yes, the purge has been discussed quite a lot here, by both me and Francesca.

The closet purges were in the Oakland brothers ashram. I think in the sisters ashram Barbara Mahler, lips firmly planted on Mr. Smith's ass and gazing heavenward in faked piety, fulfilled that function.

During the Smith Nazi-inquisition, I remember Her Smith had the audacity to call Lee Jester 'a robot.' If there was ever a case of the pot calling the kettle black, that was it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 15:46:52 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: Hey, if not for Smith I'd still be in the ashram
Message:
If David Smith hadn't given me agya (can he do that?) to choose between my too-close relationship with Deborah (no, we weren't x-rating ourselves ...yet) or my committment to give Maharaji back this life my ego had stolen from him, I'd still be there. He gave me the push and I walked. You gotta love the guy.

So what's the problem? You're out a few shirts or something? I don't get it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:28:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's right, you don't get it
Message:
Jim:

Maybe you were just in a hurry and didn't understand, or didn't read all the past posts on this incident and time period of Smith's tenure in SF. I understand your flippant point that the more awful these people were, the more black-and-whitely ridiculous they were, the more cartoonishly militaristically devoted they were, then the easier it was to use the door.

But come now. You only know too well what mental anguish people went through that just couldn't bring themselves to leave and kept taking the abuse that they either handed themselves or was meted out to them by others, the 'Master,' or all of these. There is a story I read recently about a battered child in LA. On the front page of the LA Times was a picture of a little girl being carried away from her mother, her abuser, who was accused of burning the girl's flesh and breaking her bones. And yet as the child was carried away, she was reaching toward her mother and screaming, 'Mama, Mama.' Yes you were an ashram puss-wuss like the rest of us, and put up with a lot of abusive crap. And it didn't make it leave, but I don't think it's fair to be cavalier about other people's suffering. I'm sure you weren't unscathed. And we both know people that committed suicide rather than leave the spiritual torture rack.

Smith traumatized the ashram premies during that purge. The period building up it was oppressive and threatening, constantly being put down for not being devoted enough, the usual mind numbing not worthy stuff. And then, the little bit of crap we owned, all of us squeezed too many to a room, with almost no closet space or any space -- to have Smith come through and even take that away -- was more than some people could bear. If they'd lost it in a fire, so what? But to be violated in the sense that this idiot had enough power over us to just come and confiscate our belonging -- books, whatever was not appropriate in his mind for an ashram premie -- this was like a wierd militaristic 'concentration camp.' There was such havoc after he was through with Joe's house that he went lighter on the others. Although his abusive motor-mouth hardly ever let up.

In the case of Joe's shirts, that was just an example of the absurd level it went to. Smith decided how many nice things people could own. Joe had a good job and was probably the main support for a whole house of people. But he couldn't go to work looking like a slob. And what did he get for thanks from Smith? Bad, materialistic premie. We'll take away these fancy shirts and give them to the brothers that only need to wear them at programs. You don't need all these.

Think again Jim. It was a strange sort of hell we lived in.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:22:34 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Irony, Fransesca.....
Message:
Fransesca,

I'm pretty sure Jim was being ironic in his post. As with his humour, sometimes you have to look a little harder to detect his irony:-)

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 23:54:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: My iron was low today -- thanks! n/t
Message:
n/t
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 19:57:24 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The clothes weren't the issue
Message:
It didn't really matter what the issue was. Smith's whole point was to terrorize people so the wheat could be separated from the chaff. It was completely arbitrary. There was no 'right' way to be. That was the whole point.

Maharaji gave Smith agya to 'clean up' the ashrams. And Smith believed that whatever came into his head was Maharaji's grace. So, arbitrary and capricious as it was, he laid into people wherever he could, dealing with whatever was there. His goal was not to get people to behave in a certain way, or set new rules. No, his purpose was to terroize, to put people through a kind of boot camp and see who came out the other side.

Now, in other situations he would have been told to fuck off, and to a degree he was in this case too, but he was dealing with a group of vulnerable people who believed it when they were told by Maharaji that the ashram was 'intensive care' and a wonderful gift, and a life-long committment. Most ashramites just believed they had to grin and bear it through the trials and tribulations of Mr. Smith, just as they had to deal with the trials and tribulations of their desires and their minds.

And since Maharaji didn't give a crap about any of us, didn't even know we were alive, he was happy to just let Smith and whoever else, do what they did, without giving it a second throught.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:12:13 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: There was no 'right ' w ay to be ... that's the
Message:
whole point .

Good point.Dead right .

Alex. Solzenitsin (sp) explained that Stalin's terror was accepted by the citizenry , because ,when the cops dragged people off the street at random , bystanders had to believe that they were crims . Otherwise , why would they get arrested ?

Inconceivable that the cops were just filling their allotted quota .

I never met this Smith guy , but he fits the cop , just as rawat fits the totalitarian , mindfucking , lying , Bossman .

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 23:53:59 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Brilliant -- no rules, so we were always wrong!
Message:
Never good enough, always in need of some more purity. Less ego, less mind.

I remember one time when Jiva (a band in LA) was going to do a fundraising dance, like they had done so many times before. The event had already been announced and was in the planning phase. Some honcho or instructor decided that their music wasn't appropriate. My memory doesn't serve me well, but I think there was some fire and brimstone satsang that accompanied the cancellation of the dance. By rejecting their heartfelt offering, the band was basically being told that their music wasn't pure enough (although they'd played at god knows how many programs) and neither were we, because we shouldn't have rock and roll dances and shake our booties.

I'm sure the band knew that wasn't really true; this was just the assessment of another unfettered instructor foaming at the mouth on some divine trip or other. But I remember one of the band members saying that the only way he could get rid of any more of his personality or ego at that point would be to take a gun to his head. It was only a figure of speech, but it was so true. To deny being human, to end up tripping over the rules under which you were always going to be wrong -- why did we continue on like this for years?

What a mindf*ck.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 22:36:45 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: What happened to Jiva?
Message:
I liked their album. When I was on holiday in the Greek Island, Rhodes, with my wife in about 88, we drank every night in a bar run by a Greek Rastafarian married to an English woman, and he had a great music collection. One night I asked to look through his LPs, and I found the Jiva album. I told him they were friends of friends of mine and asked where he got the LP. He couldn't remember. I asked if I could buy it, he said no. But I stole the original enclosure that said stuff like 'Salutations at the Lotus Feet of ... blah, blah' because I knew that Maharaji did not want that language to be read. Totally Stalinist behaviour on my part. The Greek guy did make me a copy of the album.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 04:21:04 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: What happened to Jiva?
Message:
It's been too many years. They were my buds when I lived in LA, especially Michael Lanning, Tommy Hilton and Jim and Mona Strauss, but I didn't keep up with them. A great bunch of folks. Good people, good music, big hearts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:32:39 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Speaking of Smith, does anyone know....
Message:
What's Smith up to these days anyway?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 16:53:46 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I cannot remember David Smith...
Message:
I remember his name, but I cannot remember him in any way, and I know he came to Hartford, and I was in Miami for a year, and Gainesville for a year...a mental block, I guess.

When m moved operations to Miami and the big DECA complex was set up the IDP marathon sessions took place in the very beautfully appointed satsang room there (no windows). I was at the complex day and night, but I remember distinctly the Instructors being driven from the Broadripple in the mornings in vans to the complex in Hialeah, to spend the day in that room. Christ, at times the place was swarming with instructors.

Whenever there was a break I noticed quite a few fried out instructors, as well as the instructor trainees. I mean fried. And they were in a situation that m could pop in at any time, because he was at the complex frequently during the day, fussing over his fucking jet project. Charanand was there, too. Funny, I though he was there to be the standard bearer of what a realized-soul-devoted instructor is. Now I find out it's probably during that time he was getting LAID, and probably agyad to follow the regimen!

When taking a van ride back to Broadripple, we all were crispy critters, but those instructors were baked and ready to serve.

Cynthia, happy my application to become an instructor was DENIED!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:09:47 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, count your blessings..nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:15:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Before the major shift from Malibu to Miami
Message:
The majority of the IDP programs (Instructor Development Programs) happened in Malibu before the major shift to Miami in the late 70s.

I only know they were up there for weeks on end and when they were starting to bake nicely, they trotted them down to our local satsang hall in LA. When things moved to Miami, he started playing games. I remember that some premies got 'the call' and went to Miami. This one special group (I remember Booth Dyess was in it because he was our CC in LA before he got the call, and possibly Gary Raucher) wasn't treated in the normal way. The were left hanging, nothing ever happened with them re IDP at that time. Gary eventually did become an instructor, but I'm not sure what anyone's status is these days.

I'd like to hear more too.

Guru Maharaji, you are so big, and I am so small ...

No argument there, Lard.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 03:20:29 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Anyone in Bay Area remember retreat in Kentfield
Message:
in 80. It rained for three days. There was group meditation then satsang ALL day in one room for the regular guys and another special satsang in another room for those of us who wanted to move into the ashram. Thank god I had cooking service to do and could sneak out early to get the meals ready.

Chuck was an aspirant and was not allowed to sleep with the premies. I went to the ashram satsang religiously thinking that the only way to completely surrender was to give Chuck up and join ashram. My mind got fried.

This was not the first ashram brainwashing retreat that I attended but it was the last. These all day satsangs were nightmares for me. I went back to smoking and would sneak out for a fag.

Mind you the ''festivals'' in those days were bloody nightmares too. Joan Apter would rant and rave for two hours. Bands would play ''Rock me Maharaji'' ad nauseam. We'd sit there in Essen, Dusseldorf, Copenhagen, Rome and fry fry fry from 10 am till the lord arrived at nine pm then we'd all fry some more until it was all over and we went back to our beds feeling like zombies.

Anyone who was around at this time knows that, if you did not surrender completely and give your mind to Guru Goodbar, you were doomed to hell for ever. I lived in complete fear of doom for ten years because I was a bad premie. Giving money assuaged my guilt somewhat - when I had a job. No wonder I ended up with stress-related health problems which ate away my guts.

Funny how the modern PWKs don't remember this. Even funnier how Rawat does not either. Too weird how I forgot about it until Jim just brought it up. But of course it was all our fault for taking Rawat literally and not seeing that he had his tongue in his cheek or else it was the mahatmas' fault. Rev Feelgood is completely free of blame.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:44:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Essen
Message:
Hi Pat,

So, you used to nip out for a fag did you, you naughty boy.

You post reminded me of Essen. I was in the ashram then. We all slept on camp beds in a massive hall somewhere. I think we queued up for a few hours to get a good seat, then when the door was opened we found all the seats had already been reserved anyway. There were angry scuffles and face-offs for seats all over the place.

I look back and can't believe that we took all that shite. The strange thing is, it's still going on. Cult mentality never changes.

Hope all is well with you and yours.

Anth, swimming in the ocean deep jai dev.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:04:40 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Essen -the only fun there was that swimming pool
Message:
with artificial waves that you could surf. That was the first festival where I saw violence break out between premies, quite a few fist fights in the long queues. Like a fool I took a swim in the river and my hair melted and stuck together for a month.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:50:30 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Essen my first festival
Message:
Some months before Essen i got K
i was looking forward to this event a lot
I should see m. for the first time
and have my holy breath..
What a bringdown
I feelt very confused, walking around, doing heavy necktar
and holy name,,,
I remember that becausse off my bad experience there.
i decided that i was not sincere, and that M knew this
I really had to give it all

Guru maharaj ji you are so big
and i am so small
like a flower.........

Totally mindfuck

Ulf

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:07:31 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Torn apart: the double bind
Message:
'No wonder I ended up with stress-related health problems which ate away my guts.' Pat, reading your post reminded me of how absolutely crazy-making that time was for me. And how it was the onset of my stress-related health problems which ate my adrenals.

On the one hand, I was incredibly privileged, for a monmot married person, to be allowed to hang around in the atmosphere of the high priests and priestesses. Even though I was exhausted after cooking and organizing and chauffeuring all day, I wouldn't have given up those evenings of initiator satsang for anything. But ALL THE SATSANG was about total commitment and dedication and how grateful they were to have given up their lives. You all remember the deal in those days. I mean, how tactless! I was there! It's like saying how grateful one is to be white, when the black help is in the room. I felt as though I was being torn apart - by this and also my occasional direct exposure to MJ's satsangs about that kid who left his grandparents to live in his master's ashram (whose name I have blocked).

The funny thing, though, is that although I felt this deep longing to give my complete life to MJ (translated, this means, to get some release from the stress of 'doing the wrong thing'), being so close to all these future initiators gave me the chills. No way I wanted to be them. How can I describe the atmosphere? I can still feel it in my bones if I tune into it. There was an incredible excitement. 'We have made it! We are in the inner circle! We have been chosen by the Lord, to be his hand-maidens (for some reason I can only remember the dames).' Each day they would go and do service at the residence, and mostly be ignored by MJ. I could tell who had been ignored and who talked to by their mood at dinner. I felt as though they were hostages who were being mildly abused, but were obligatorily grateful to their captors. And as I said in my other post, I felt that deep-down they were suppressing huge parts of themselves to give their lives to this tyrannical, non-nurturing lover.

Another high spot that sticks in my memory is about Claudia. She would come and give satsang every now and then, which was a special deal. Her satsang was the most over-the-top devotional desperate gopi stuff I had ever heard. I mean, Joan Apter had nothing on her in this department. I felt that it was funny, because it didn't go along with a friendly, loving demeanour towards the human beings around her. Many of the initiator candidates had this feeling of bleakness around their heart, as though it was an indulgence to get too much into personal affect - a distraction I guess. I mean, part of me was programmed in exactly the same way. It was a dramatic double life for me, because I was having a pretty humane and loving home life. Although I felt as though I ought to be like these super-inflated devotees, I wanted to go home to my sweet husband, and to my freedom. I wanted to get health care without having to go through some tyrannical treasurer. I wanted sex and personal love. These two directly contrasting wantings double-binded me to an incredible degree.

Pat, I'm so glad you didn't give up Chuck and I didn't give up my marriage (even though it ended later). I'm glad we are living in loving relationships and doing stuff we love.

Love to you all, Katie Darling

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:45:13 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Shades of Mr. Divine Right Hand Man
Message:
Oh God, what memories that brings back!

Remember Randy Proudy? I can still hear him screaming 'If you're married and don't have any children and don't move into the ashram then you are a DAMNED FOOL!' Major drip time for me on that lovely satsang. Did that guy have a Napolean complex or what?
This was circa 1979. Randy was almost as bad as David,(I do the Lard's bidding), Smith in my opinion.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:44:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Great analysis
Message:
I think it's very important to put all this into words and explain what we were really feeling then. It was so amazingly unpleasant and stultifying that I know I tend to repress what it felt like, or think it was funny in retrospect. But it was far from funny.

I used to see the initiators come out of those training programs and literally dread that I might have to be in one of them. I wanted to be nothing like them, but I was also torn apart because that was the next logical step from the asrham. And I had an Initiator Application on file. Fortunately, I was never one of the chosen.

I did see some ashram premies I knew come out of the IDP with post-traumatic stress disorder. They seemed to have lost affect, and when they gave satsang it was all about how they learned they were slimy, miserable creatures and begging Maharaji to save them. Maharaji put them in a no-win situation. He made them sit around and listen non-stop to self-hating drivel, and when what was left of their personal identities rebelled, they had no place to go and instead begged Maharaji for mercy, grace or the crumb of his attention. Very sick.

I remember Candy McNary told me that she contemplated suicide quite a number of times during her IDP. I think that was one in which Maharaji left the poor wretches there for months with no end point. It was also the one in which Maharaji told them that if they got in their minds the glass would fall for the heights, and they would shatter. So much for all the love.

She said she repeatedly fantisized about going down to the ocean off Malibu and drowning herself. She told me this as a warning of what 'the mind' can do. Even then, those statements, along with her obvious misery, gave me the creeps, and I secretly hoped it would never happen to me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:19:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe and Katie
Subject: Great analysis
Message:
You both have summed up and put into words a lot of what was going on for us in our strange state of desperation. Whether in or out of the ashram, for those truly hooked the aspiration was the same. Wanting to be in a horrible state of total surrender worse than anything, seeing how few people ever 'got there' to be with M, and how few of them stayed there, and how messed up those close to him were. The excuse we were always given was that 'he keeps the wet logs close to the fire.' One major DRIP for me, which this statement never satisfied, was the amount of assholes that he surrounded himself with -- sorry, robotic yes people who walked around in suits. Now that I am not looking upon all of them so unkindly, maybe there were people inside those robots. Let's hope some of them are now free.

All of what you both said is so true, and I can feel the whole trip in my bones. This one really rung my chimes:

He made them sit around and listen non-stop to self-hating drivel, and when what was left of their personal identities rebelled, they had no place to go and instead begged Maharaji for mercy, grace or the crumb of his attention. Very sick.

It was about the destruction of self-worth and self-esteem, and eventually, the destruction of me. I heard that when Tim Gallway fell apart he kept trying to get into the residence. Who knows, to throw his torn little heart at the feet of his torturer?

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 15:49:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Thanks for describing that further, Katie D.
Message:
You're right, you can almost feel it and I wasn't even there. Well, I was somewhere, I think. Not sure exactly ...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:29:28 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Love to you too, Katie darling and health and
Message:
happiness and peace of mind and all the wonderful we hoped for once and had crushed out of us by an incompetent greasy lardy little ball of greed and insouciance.

Reading your above post sent chills up my spine. Chuck never really went through all the heavy guilt trips that were laid on us and does not really understand the sense of healing that I am currently having. Everyday I wake up more relaxed and contented and saner and healthier than the day before.

I just wish that for all the people on whom Rev Strangelove experimented. None of us deserved to be told that god had come personally to bring heaven on earth only to then be subjected to a hell created by his spiritual and intellectual stupidity and vulgar insatiable appetities.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:32:37 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: PatC and Katie
Subject: You two are up late! ot
Message:
Hi Pat and Kiatie. How goes it in NoCal? I'll be seeing you very soon.

Much love, Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 15:04:25 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: You two are up late! ot
Message:
Hi darlin' girl,

Yes, we are up late. We're both going through menopause and the hot flashes wake us up in the middle of the night. (Or at least, that's my excuse!).

See you on June 2. It's very exciting, isn't it - especially considering I won't be meeting anyone I have ever known in person, yet it feels like a coming together with old friends.

love Katie Darling

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:34:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: It was in Forest Knolls, Pat
Message:
It was in Winter, January I think, and it rained constantly and was very cold. Her David Smith was the resident initiator, along with Dennis Murphy, I think.

Yes, we had fire and brimstone ashram satsang, hours upon hours of meditation, and marathon, boring, blithering darshan testimonies. Of course, I was probably frying a little less than you, because I was in the ashram, and although I thought of myself as a worthless wretch, I wasn't doing anything REAL BAD, so Maharaji was taking care of me, and I could feel superior to premies like you, who were just too spaced out, or lacked understanding about devotion and surrender. Really, about the only thing the ashram premies had to put up with the otherwise hellish existence was thel ability to feel spiritually superior. What a joke that was.

The non-ashram premies were reduced to feeling superior only to the confused 'people of the world' and the aspirants (the tiny handful there were) who wanted the great 'gift' that premies already had.

But that retreat wasn't unusual. I remember many retreats, and countless weekend, marathon satsang and meditation torture sessions. Not to mention those festivals. If I EVER have to look at the inside of the Miami Beach Convention Center, even ONE MORE TIME, I will vomit.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:37:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: That was my liberation meeting
Message:
I went to it knowing that I was moving out of the ashram. And I didn't feel bad about it either. I remember I wore wierd glitzy clothes (during my punker days in SF I really loved to do that and pushed the envelope as far as I could in the ashram). I think I had on sparkly leg warmers and plastic cowboy rainboots boots I'd gotten on sale at I. Magnins. My stuff always gave people a chuckle.

Since I wasn't buying into the ashram party line and Smith knew it, I had an exit interview with Schmih where he was as meek as a lamb. I told him that the ashram life was not for me. We were told we had no friends and family, and I told him that I had both. I told him that if my parents were dying, or otherwise in need of my help, I was not going to tell them, 'Go die in the bushes, I've dedicated my life to the Lord and live in His ashram.' I told him I wanted to be a human being.

And I do remember the rain. Somehow I thought it was somewhere else other than Forest Lodge, maybe it was Forest Knolls. The downpour of the holy rain, washing me clean of the guru game.

It wasn't that easy, in one sense. Even posting on this site is still removing layers. And exposing other baloney I've gotten into since M.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:10:03 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Forest Knolls - the only fun there was the hot tub
Message:
Some of us spent hours in the huge hot tub which had been made out of a corrugated tank. I remember your spikey hairdo, mini-skirt and glittery hosiery but especially your newfound cajones. Was Mark there too?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 19:54:13 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: No he had been exiled to Phoenix
Message:
When the brothers got the big palace in the nice neighborhood up on the hill at Miraloma Drive, there were leftover premies from Lawton Street that did not fit the image the powers that be wanted to convey, and there was not enough room in the Oakland brother's house near Lake Merritt (home of the infamous Smith 'purge'). So several of them, including Mark, were left in a holding pattern. Left behind with no instructions as to where they were going and what was going to be done with them. Clearly treated like rejects.

The community powers that be tried to get me to be a signatory on the lease for Miraloma because I had a halfway respectable job, and I flat refused. I saw the large zoo ashrams they'd had in LA -- I think it was the El Camino sister's house that sticks in my mind, back when I was LA ashram coordinator -- and I thought they were dehumanizing and got you in trouble with the landlords. The trip was to have several respectable people sign the lease, and then have the hordes move in. Kind of like I did in my hippie days, and poor folks still do today. (I remember the problems we had with landlords when leases were broken in LA. So many skilled ashram folks were shipped off for DECCA.)

So David Elbaz, Mark and someone else were left behind, and Schmitz or whomever was there at the time hadn't decided what to do with them. Mark was finally sent to Phoenix, and I'm sure he had a much better time than he would have at the Miraloma mere-illusion, although there were several brothers there that were great and are still my friends today. ;-)

They had to move out of Miraloma eventually, because the neighborhood was POSH and hordes of premies were parking all over the fancy neighborhood for satsang. I believe the neighbors signed a petition against the brother's ashram, though I was so disinterested at that point that the details escape me. So the upscale showcase was a bust.

We also got in trouble at Galewood for running flower sales out of the garage too often. Again the place was too posh for our premie lifestyle. I remember getting almost 100 people into our ashram living room in Santa Monica once a week, before the landlord shut us down.

LOL -- love, Francesca

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:27:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The Miraloma 'Experience'
Message:
During the Smith purge, he fired me from being community coordinator, and put Barbara Mahler (aka 'Bernadette of the Waters') in charge.

She didn't last too long and was sent away someplace (I think to a 'home' of some sort where she couldn't hurt herself by putting her nose into asses and into the air), and Marcia Leitner from God knows where, was brought in to take her place. I was relegated to the brothers ashram in Oakland, with David Elbaz as housefather, who gave us a dollar a week allowance. Fortunately, Richie Azzarone was often in town, pockets flowing with cash from flower sales, and he financed my smoothie and chocolate chip cookie addictions. At that time, working in the Embarcadero Center, I looked forward much more to my daily coffee and the greatest lemon cake at Just Desserts, and talking to my non-premie friend Lisa, than I did to meditation, satsang or seeing Maharaji.

Anyhow, I remember they found the Miraloma house which was decked out to be 'relatable' to the hoards of people who were going to come wanting knowledge now that propagation was supposedly FINALLY coming together. John Horton was in town and asked me to move back to SF -- Miraloma, to be housefather. Since I wanted to get out from under the infamous Elbaz (and that other guy whom Mark used to refer to as 'Hagar the Horrible), and away from that Viking-like wood in that big Oakland house on Bellevue, and since the commute to the financial district where I worked was easier from St. Francis Wood, I agreed.

That's when the sweet Butch Dawson was our housemom and cook, and we were only two to a bedroom, we had beautiful furniture, FIVE decks overlooking the ocean, and SIX bathrooms. It was also brand new. We slept in real beds, not on mats, and ate dinner at a REAL dining room table with matching chairs.

The hordes of aspirants, of course, never materialized, even after Maharaji did a program at Davies and I think only 3 or 4 people even bothered to show up at a follow-up program. It was a total dud, and we never really needed Miraloma to show the world that premies looked like Young Republicans. DRIP, DRIP, DRIP.

I liked living in that house, mostly because I liked the brothers there, and as housefather I felt paternal. I took advantage of the desire for us to be 'relatable' to getting everyone new clothes, requiring that they go to the dentist, and trying to take care of their needs. That was kind of nice. I also enjoyed telling Marcia Leitner that we just didn't have any money to donate to the latest plane Maharaji desired. We were just so broke after buying new cars for the guys. I actually considered, I really did, buying FIRST CLASS tickets to a program in Miami in July of 1982. I thought of explaining that rich people had to get this knowledge too, and those poor souls in first class also needed to hear satsang. Made perfect sense to me.

Yes, the neighbors did complain, and I convinced Marcia that we were going to get kicked out if we continued to have so many stupid premie programs there. I even met with the neighbors and discussed with them what they were concerned about, and things died down after that. That's the ashram I was living in when I left the cult. I don't think the ashram closed because of the neighbors. Fortunately for us, premies are not night people and satsang ended at 9:30 AM. We were all sleeping on our barragons by 10:00, so they really had no legal grounds to go after us.

I moved out in March, 1983, and I think by the end of the Summer the ashram was gone. Whenever I go down Portola, I always look up and see that house, with all the decks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:48:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More on the Miraloma Experience
Message:
While I was still living at Miraloma, Sally Reeder floated through town and decided that there was yet another solution to the problem of nobody in the whole of creation being interested in joining the Maharaji cult anymore. It was really getting bad. The salad days of the cult seemed to be long gone, and let's face it, we looked like nuts living communally at 30.

SO, Sally decided that if all the REALLY DEDICATED ashram premies, male and female, were coralled together into ONE ashram, well, you know, the light would be so bright that people would come from miles around.

SO, they found yet ANOTHER house in the Inner Sunset, over there by where Lawton Street had been, and the elite ashram premies were selected to live there. I was not chosen, seeing as I was being a big recalcitrant and overly worldy by this point. That house included Stewey Sheffield (?) Sharon Stokke, Marcia Leitner, the saintly 'Wendy,' 'Naz,' 'Hagar the Horrible', I think Gary Raucher, and a few others I either can't recall or have repressed in order to retain my sanity. I always wondered why Sharon was included in the above group, since she was notorious for ignoring her chastity vows in every community she lived in, even propositioning at least one of the gay brothers in the San Francisco ashram. That's how brazen SHE was.

Well, Miraloma became really, really nice after that. We even rallied the other brothers to keep the elitists from taking our ashram furniture to their holy shrine. We were in open rebellion by that point. It must have been around 1982. This nice guy Phil Van Kirk, was allowed to move in as well. It just all kind of mellowed out with no more expectations that we were supposed to be the backbone of propagation, that having been taken over by the elitists.

Anyhow, the saintly ashram brothers and sisters apparently fought so much that the place fell apart fairly quickly. We all thought it was very funny.

Than, about a month later, Her Smith came to Miraloma and made a 'sort of' apology for being such a Nazi. When pressed, by me about his, he nevertheless retained the view that it was all perfect and necessary. When I asked why, then, he was apologizing, he was reduced to muttering something about grace. What a weasel.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:19:29 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, did Dr. John Horton get sued by some women..
Message:
for sexual abuse?

a friend of mine told me that a few days ago.

He was told by an instructor last year that Horton was in hot water for some things he had done when he was in England.
A few different women had sued him for some sort of inappropriate sexual behavior.

Have you ever heard anything like this?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 20:34:57 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Joe, did Dr. John Horton get sued by some women..
Message:
I have heard similar rumors, but I don't know anything specifically. J-M's friend, who forwaded Marolyn's letters a few years ago, said Horton had done something awful to her, but I don't know any of the details.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 00:07:24 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Thanks for filling in on Miraloma
Message:
That's right. It was around the time of the Davies Symphony hall program. M was coming to San Francisco. The angels were going to descend with trumpets, and the hordes were going to come to Miraloma! Sort of our own SF Millenium, our astro dome, and your astro home.

What a hoot! I remember all those guys really well. The house was really nice. What you probably didn't realize is that when at least one premie in the community, who I believe was donating money monthly, saw how high on the hog you guys were living, well, he was appalled to say the least. I'm sure he wasn't alone. The gourmet cooking was amazing. Both Gary Raucher and Butch Dodson in the SAME house.

Some of the community premies looked as us ashram premies like we looked at the instructors -- as loveable, spoiled, decadent and a bit clueless. Especially the community premies that lived in funkier houses and ate funkier food. Many were not more free than we were in many ways (in fact racked by guilt because THEY weren't surrendered enough to be in the ashram) and were putting in money for us to live in nice houses with excuse that propagation couldn't happen from a dump. I remember one aspirant in LA, after working all week, going to the LA ashram to do service. The sisters were running off to do things like play tennis. She basically wondered what the heck she was doing it for. But then she remembered -- ignore the premies. She was really serving the LORD.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:19:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Not true Francesca.
Message:
Some of the community premies looked as us ashram premies like we looked at the instructors -- as loveable, spoiled, decadent and a bit clueless.

THEY weren't surrendered enough to be in the ashram) and were putting in money for us to live in nice houses with excuse that propagation couldn't happen from a dump.

I know some of them thought this, but I could never figure out why. There were some spoiled ashramites, but they were few and far between. Clueless, perhaps, for accepting what Maharaji told them, but that was about it. At least at Miraloma, we were able to afford that house only because ALL the brothers who lived there (except for Butch who ran the house) worked full-time jobs, often long hours, to make the money to pay for it. The Community premies did NOT finance that ashram. They did not, in any way, finance that house on Mirloma, at least as long as I was involved with it. Most of the brothers had decent jobs, and San Francisco is a high-wage city, and that's how we did it.

Yes, some of the instructors were spoiled too, but who do you think financed most of their whims, and had to put up with THEIR narcissism? The ashrams did, that's who. The community treasury was notoriously short, and who do you think supplied most of the money for the community? You got it: the ashrams, and the premies therein, willing to work full time and live communally. They didn't spend their money on drugs and alcohol. They didn't go to fancy restaurants. They turned over all their money, and they financed the ashrams and were the backbone of the community financing as well, and provided most of the slave labor for the fundraisers.

Now, Miraloma was originally financed, I mean we bought some of the furniture and maybe helped scrape together the deposit, from Richie's flower sales, but who you do think did 90% of the work selling those fucking flowers on the streets? Right, it was the ashram premies. Some community premies did it too, but the ashrams provided the vast majority of the work, and most of the money went to some luxury or other for Mahararji, and I think only a small portion went to deck out the ashram.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 04:25:17 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I trust your word on that Joe
Message:
Since you were cc for some of that time, and was the cc for other communities. I do know of at least one premie that donated money to Miraloma, but I didn't mean to insinuate that premie donations were the backbone of the ashram's financing.

And I think that situation was a bit unique, because it was set up to be the showcase after the Davies Symphony Hall fiasco. The premies I am talking about lived on the edge, and didn't have good paying jobs.

I never knew that the ashrams bailed the community out, but I'm not surprised. An organization I just became disinvolved with, at the local and regional level, did not receive a broad level of support. It was the generosity of a few, rather than the many.

Also, when I was ashram coordinator in LA, Kathie Gliebe took out an 11,000 loan for something or other, and when she was sucked up by Office of GMJ, the ashram were (you guessed it), stuck with the loan.

And we certainly did support a lot of the slave labor for flower sales (here and LA -- down there they did the Rose Bowl), department store inventories, etc.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 02:07:05 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: While you are are reminiscing, Joy and I are too
Message:
She's having dinner here with another ex so we're having a mini Latvian NIght with us five exes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 03:13:15 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: LOVE you, Joy and Pat and Chuck and Andy! n/t
Message:
n/t
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 03:37:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: FA! Francesca person has just outed some Andy guy!
Message:
Oh my God! Now we all now that there's some ex named Andy.

Francesca, you've simply GOT to be more careful. I can just see the EV Monitors adding yet another name to their database:

'Andy, huh? Hmmm..'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 03:52:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And now Joe and Kevin are here and we're having a
Message:
BALL!

Jim, Andy's my other husband but I won't mention the name of Joy's friend another ex.

Chuck, Andy, Joy and Joe all send their love, Francesca.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 04:01:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: God, what a score for the WPC hit squad!
Message:
Don't mean to freak you guys out or anything. (No one's smoking any dope, I hope).

You guys are lucky, actually, to all be in the same area like that. Why, up here in Victoria, Sandy and Dog and I are the only exes.

Have fun!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:22:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No dope, just wine. Wish you were here. NT
Message:
k
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:29:14 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Wish I was there too! n/t
Message:
no text
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:46:35 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: That's just what Joy and I were saying
Message:
They've all gone home now. It was so wonderful to see Joy again after 20 years. She hasn't changed a bit. We had a laugh because of course we're now old farts but to me she's the same young woman I knew all those years ago. It was hard to say goodbye to her. But she's just on a quick visit from Seattle.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:04:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Forest Knolls? You were there?
Message:
That cured me of ever wanting to be in the ashram. There was one brother, a chubby guy quite homely, who was assigned to give satsang to the ashram aspirers. He frightened the living daylights out of me. I thought I had joined the Moonies for a while as he was so heavy and ugly (actually in more ways than one.)

What I didn't realize at the time was that it was he who was really frightened and he was trying hard to cover it up with false bravado and exaggerated displays of piety. I overcame the guilt that he tried to put on me by telling myself that I was superior to him in that I at least was experiencing the bliss and was a much better yogi.

Reading this sentence of yours reminded me of that: ''I could feel superior to premies like you, who were just too spaced out, or lacked understanding about devotion and surrender.''

Well, the irony of it was that that was what I felt about the ashram premies after that retreat. Herr Blitzen Schmidtzen was so obviously a paranoid sociopath and set the atmosphere that group meals felt like either a gathering of Hitler Youth or my last supper at Auschwitz depending on whether i was feeling piously smug or frightened. Of course I blamed the ashram premies for creating a cult around something so beautiful as M and K.

If I knew then what I know now...that meanwhile, back in Miami, Rev Strangelove was running an illegally operated sweat shop for his stupid fucking Boeing, creating an elaborate corporate shellgame to hide his income, sexually molesting his employees, DRINKING (I did not touch a drop in those days) eating meat (I had not eaten a cadaver since 1968) and generally behaving like a two-bit Al Capone.....

I am truly sorry for any harm that I did to anyone during those times or any judgments that I made about perfectly decent people who were being abused and disrespected by the urug.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:55:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Yep
Message:
It was held at this Zen Retreat place. Up the hills, and when I drive by there sometimes on the way to Point Reyes, I see it's still there, and get a nauseous feeling.

Actually, that retreat was held after the Smith-Inquisition-purge. So, I was kind of numb by that point, and kind of didn't give a shit. I think many ashram premies got to that point. They were just concentration camp survivors at that point. They either shut down, or they started to fuck around.

There was almost a disembodied feeling that I had. I just disassociated myself from my body and even my identity. By that point, I knew well how to play the ashram game. How to act, what to say, who you could trust with your real feelings, who you couldn't. Then, I would go off to work at my research job at a corporate law firm, and play the game of normalcy. Plus, as a gay man, I was also playing straight. I think I could have gotten a job in the theater by that point.

I think is is partly why premies are doing those corporate-training crap-type things. It's all just an act, and premies get very good at acting. It's all pretend. If you pretend you are happy, you tend to think you are.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:39:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: The chubby guy
Message:
Was the 'chubby guy' blonde? If so, that would have been Dennis Murphy, who I think was then an initiator, former chef for fatso, but certainly at that time the 'junior' initiator in the pecking order to the Fuhrer Smith. Dennis was the guy who told me all about Maharaji telling homophobic jokes.

In DC, there was a similar 'Mut and Jeff' duo: Randy Prouty and Alan Imbarrato.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:15:08 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The chubby guy, I don't think it was Dennis
Message:
It was just some ashcan brother whom Herr Blitzen Schmitzen had given agya to fry the ashcan aspirers. He also eventually turned out to be a pooftah. God, I wish I'd known you better. We could have ganged up on Schmitzen and tied him up and given him what he really wanted. Of course i would have had to be on crystal meth to even touch the creep.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 13:34:05 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I was there too
Message:
What I mostly remember (I think it was in February) was the endless rain, and being fixated on one ashram aspirant who literally shoveled his food into his mouth at every meal like a wild animal. He had personal stresses which had nothing to do with the retreat itself, but bombardment didn't seem to free him from his mind. Maybe my mind was numb because I can't recall a word that was said or who came.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:18:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: I remember you being there
Message:
Can't you kick yourself that we didn't all gang up on Herr Schmitzen? I can see you, Joe, Fran, Chuck and me giving him worse than he ever dished out. Was Joy there too? Oh Joyeee?

Chuck and I left soon afterwards for 17 years. I think it was the last straw for many of us.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 03:08:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: BTW, it's Katie D's post re Instructor Training (n
Message:
t)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:16:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Could someone fill in a few blanks, please?
Message:
This is new on ELK:

Amaroo 2001: First impressions
18 April 2001

Arriving at Ivory's Rock Conference Centre, at first glance there is very little sign of Amaroo 2001, a new sign nailed to the wooden perimeter fence announces that the centre has become a wildlife refuge.

And as you drive up the long avenue to the original administrative offices, wallabies and hares dart across the newly mown grass.

The impressive monolith of the 'rock' dominates the vista and the hot Queensland sun adds a touch of sleepy serenity to the whole landscape. At regular intervals, though, trucks of all shapes and sizes punctuate the silence with the revving of their engines, as they deliver a variety of loads - huge sheets of turf, chairs, tables and more besides.

It starts to become clear that the whole orientation has changed from previous events. Retracing your steps to the conference centre's entrance, you can see across the road, in newly acquired adjacent land, a new high tech reception area is being built. But it does not intrude on the familiar, tranquil, rustic entrance to the parkland. And the tree lined avenue up to the foot of the rock is no longer used to park cars.

The main campsite - with its hundreds of new silver tents - is also on the new acreage, and conveniently close to the newly constructed Pavilion area, where food concessions will serve a variety of different menus. New permanent toilets blocks will prove a relief in more ways than one to not only the 1800 campers who will be staying on site but also the daily visitors.

Gradually, as more food counters open at midday in the Pavilion area, the many volunteers congregate to buy prepacked lunch - and after six in the evening a cool beer or glass of wine. They come, more than ready for lunch, from all corners the 1700 acre site, where they have been working on construction, catering, landscaping and adminstration. Predictably, perhaps, the food is not to everyone's taste, but, beyond, that everyone seems to be delighted to putting the finishing touches to the long awaited event.

The Pavilion area is a long sweep of shops dominated by a large dome, which gives design cohesion to the area and shelter from the sun; it will be the main gathering point during the event.

From here, an expanse of grass land stretches up the hill over which the amphitheatre sits. This is where you can find more and ample evidence that there has been major preparation for this event. The amphitheatre has been remodeled, a new stage erected and permanent translation booths installed. At present there are plans to translate Maharaji simultaneously into 10 different languages, when he speaks next week.

Maharaji himself met with the event organisers on Tuesday and went on a tour of the site with them. Efforts to minimise traffic during the events are being underpinned with two 'double-ended' buses, which spent most of their working lives to date at Sydney airport moving passengers from planes to terminals and vice versa. Each holds over a hundred people and despite their size are incredibly maneuverable, as they require no huge turning circles. The driver just gets up and walks to the other end of the bus, sits down at the 'other' driving seat and heads off in the reverse direction to take his next load along the centre's narrow roads.

Maharaji tried the ride - in both directions - and was later heard in a quiet moment, scanning the landscape, to say: 'This is such a beautiful place...'

What I'm wondering is what all can people actually do there? I mean, you get your evening program, I guess. Maharaji blabs on for an hour maybe. A little music. Without lots and lots of other satsangers like in the old, old days, I can't see any of that taking all that long. You get a couple of meals in there. Spend a bit of time buying trinkets. (One funny thing I noticed in EV's latest e-mail newsletter is that, during the 'festival', printouts will be available for a 'nominal cost'. Can you imagine? We're talking a couple of hundred words at best. How much do you think they dare charge for these?)

Seriously, can anyone who's recently out please explain just how these people are going to spend their days at Amaroo? Like a typical day kind of thing?

Thanks,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:17:03 (GMT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Could someone fill in a few blanks, please?
Message:
My husband and I went to Amaroo in 1997. I think you have it right. You don't do much of anything. It's actually very boring. We stayed in a tent. It seemed you walked a lot from one area to another, all at long distances. You go listen to M twice a day. The rest of the time you sleep, eat and hang out, yacking with people you haven't seen in a long time. I spent most of my time looking for people I knew, and if I found somebody I knew, we sometimes caught up on things. It was kind of like a class reunion, but that got old after the first day or so.

It's incredibly boring, but since I always found M's speeches boring, even that didn't break the boredom for me. Others seemed to find his talks exciting and inspiring.

I think I felt it was pleasant, because I believed I was having this great 'opportunity' just to be there. Lots of PWKs tell each other how lucky and fortunate they feel to be there. Everybody says this to each other over and over, and that's basically what M says to. So, after a while, you probably feel gratetful and lucky to be there. So, you must be having a good time.

They did have an expensive food place last time. But it was too expensive for my taste, and I heard the food wasn't very good, either.

It wasn't a bad experience, but by the time it was over, I was more than ready to leave. I wanted to get back to normal people. I have always felt this at programs that lasted more than one day. When I left Amaroo, I wanted to stop felling like I was supposed to be grateful all the time. It's a heavy burden to feel grateful. It isn't a good experience at all, if you ask me. That's a big lie that Maharaji and the premies say.

I think you start to hate the thing you are always having to be grateful too, because it's draining and degrading to always have to be in debt to someone. I was sick and tired of being grateful to Maharaji. To hell with that!

Now, when I look back on it, I have a very hard time trying to figure out the point of it all. It all seemed much ado about nothing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 22:02:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: EVERYONE SHOULD READ SUZANNE'S POST
Message:
It's like the ultimate Amaroo testimonial. Wouldn't it be funny if they had it up on the Amroo website?

Thanks

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:33:47 (GMT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It wasn't a testimonial
Message:
It's really the way it felt. It felt pointless. If you don't constantly keep telling yourself it's great, then it isn't great anymore, because there is no reason or point to it all. That's what it feels like at Amaroo at one of those events.

I kept thinking there were a lot more important and 'real' things I could have been doing with my time. Things that might benefit me, my family and my community. Then I would feel guilty for feeling that way. But it's true. It all began to feel very insignificant and not worth wasting time on.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 15:27:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: OK, THEN NO ONE SHOULD READ IT (NT)
Message:
JJJJ
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:26:30 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Being Grateful
Message:
I think you start to hate the thing you are always having to be grateful too, because it's draining and degrading to always have to be in debt to someone. I was sick and tired of being grateful to Maharaji. To hell with that!

Great post Suzanne. I've been debating with Sandy about how grateful I should be to Maharaji for being taught how to meditate. Being eternally grateful only makes sense if the recipient of the gratitude really is the giver of life, and even then, it might be good to have a long chat with him/her/it about some of the problems that come with being alive, instead of just being grateful!

John the sparing with his gratitude

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 04:11:35 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I went in '97...
Message:
...and his lardship spoke twice a day, around noon and in the evening.
So you have breakfast walk, shop, go to the amphitheatre go back to your tent or pavillion or wherever then go back again and have dinner. That's basically all you do. Oh let us not forget the fine dining for those willing to spend an arm and a leg and dress up to attend. Yeah wild life refuge that is, wild life of humans getting drunk and watever.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:47:43 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, where is the Kool-Aid stand located? nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 18:00:32 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: They're admitting they have only 1800 campers?
Message:
I can't imagine there'd be more that 1800 trucking themselves in every day, if that. Yes, gone are the days of 10,000 people that would follow the rat anywhere.

I love the Maharaji himself met with organizers statement. Like he has so little involvement with it except to Lord it over people, sqeak his hamsterish and collect the dough that it is significant that He Himself has anything else to do with it.

Thanks Jim -- I'll wait to hear what the current folks post.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 14:23:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What I'm wondering
Message:
I'm wondering how the

'new permanent toilets blocks will prove a relief in more ways than one to not only the 1800 campers who will be staying on site but also the daily visitors.'

More ways than one? Do they mean Relief no.1 and Relief no.2?

Or what?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 21:52:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: They mean a place to barf....
Message:
I guess that's Relief number 3.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:49:21 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Oh that's funny! nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:31:57 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Could someone fill in a few blanks, please?
Message:
Last time I went it took ages simply to get anywhere.

Cars were parked miles away - food was a long walk - meditation areas was a long way away, satsang area could be one of many etc etc. A local radio station station broadcast on different channels - on one channel stasang, another music - can't quite remember. But when I got to the satsang area I had to listen on the radio because there was no sound system - it was outdoors - it was aspirant time as I recall and premies and others didn't get close. Another time it was in a tent with a sound system as per usual.

There is a food areas where coffee type and food places are available. I imagine these are still there.

There's a tent for watching videos on m. Its a bit like a big, very big parkland surrounded by bushland with different things in different places nd miles between.

Time spent mostly chatting with colleagues which to my mind is probably the best bit of the whole thing. When I went last time there were heaps of people I could have chatted with. I felt like a bit of a fraud being there - and hence mostly avoided them all.

Cheers for now

Peter Howie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:54:59 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Wildlife refuge.
Message:
So, it's a wildlife refuge is it.

That must explain the new remodelled ampitheatre- obviously for lectures and presentations about the environment. Silver tents for 1800- they must be for the enviromentalists, coming to study the wildlife. The 'translation booths', well they must be 'hides' for the birdwatchers really. Somebody misunderstood. And then there are the roads that have been built all over the place for the big buses- they must really be tracks for the wild animals to use. And the couple of thousand people who are going to be there for a few days- well they're stomping around all over the place, eating in the fast food restaurants, doing enviromental work right?

Have I got this right? I mean, they wouldn't stick a sign up like that for a cheap publicity stunt would they? It's obviously to make it clear to the locals that Amaroo isn't a centre for a religious cult.

I wonder what gave them that idea?

Anth the wild animal.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 07:56:17 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What! No cognac? Only beer or wine!
Message:
I guess you can tie on a high after six o'clock.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 13:37:43 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Ironic, isn't it? Or is it? n/t
Message:
n/t
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:51:18 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Anyone for a spot of marsupial hunting?
Message:
Ok,Don't anyone freak out,I am only joking as usual.Kangaroos,Wallabies and Koalas are beautiful animals.
How's about some premie hunting?We can thrash beragans on the ground to flush them out of their habitats.
Yes,I know I am a sick man indeed.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:16:25 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mate. This is Australia.
Message:
There are a lot of things to do. First you can start by doing nothing. Lay down under a tree, have a barbie, duck to Brisi for a quick swim, go to the moves, have a skooner or two. There are a lot of people that haven't met for donkies of years, they could have a good chin yak. you could go bush walking, it's a bloody big place. Fuck I don't mind being there, I think it's a lot of fun.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:00:56 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: I'm confused salam.
Message:
Hi salam,

You've confused me. Why do Australians lie down under trees in the afternoon with Barbie dolls?

Or is a Barbie some kind of sheep?

Anth baaahing up the wrong tree.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:23:10 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I'm confused salam.
Message:
Ya wanker,

Barbie, barbie, b-a-r-b-i-e - where ya cook things- a hot plate with a fire underneath. Cheez and Rice don't ya' get it?

Cheers and surprised you got the other local banter at all.

Peter Howie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:26:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Peter Howie
Subject: Cheezan Rice?
Message:
G'day Peter,

Cheezan Rice, wasn't he a past Perfect Master?

Anth, about to have some Jesus on toast.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:05:45 (GMT)
From: Peter Howie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Cheezanrice?Yes and sounds very Tibetan to boot!nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:46:12 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, here is some Jagdeo info from Sucha..
Message:
Suchabanana posted this in a thread where it is ot and so might
be missed. It is about Jagdeo so I post it here for you.
....................
The Truth and full extent of what I know r.e. this matter:
Back in the mid-1970s, a credible and well-placed premie friend/insider reported to me that he had been in Denver and in Malibu, where there had been official discussions and concerns expressed by parents and teachers alike about Jagdeo performing so-called 'Knowledge sessions' with premie children.

He said that at the school, Jagdeo had been closing the door and turning out the lights and conducting some kind of junior knowledge sessions with the children.

He also said that this subject Did, in fact, come directly to Maharaji's attention at that time, and that m. thereupon told Jagdeo to stop doing these junior knowledge sessions anymore.

That's it; that's all I know. However, that means: Maharaji personally knew at least something about this matter -- if perhaps not the actual sordid facts.

I hope what I have related has helped somehow.

Let us ALL conduct ourselves with empathy now for each other, please. Evil is the absence of empathy [quote from the Nuremburg trials].

Peace,

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:12:45 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Could someone fill in a few blanks, please?
Message:
Jim,
What do these people do all day? We used to call it 'service', they now call it 'participation opportunities', and we now know it to be 'slave labor', who actually PAY dearly to be there.
Ian Dury
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 03:01:17 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: you can buy a newsletter for 1.00. US.....
Message:
At the Long Beach programs a few years ago, they sold daily newsletters for $1.00, each day, with excerpts from m's satsang the day before.

What a joke....I remember one of the newsletters had an 'editorial' from some premie, talking about how m's satsang had featured one of his favorite topics: personal responsibility...that was a major drip for me at the time...I can't imagine what I would have thought then if I knew what I know now...

So, I guess you could read the newsletter for 15 minutes or so....maybe throw a frisbee for another 15....

La-ex

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:27:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not sure how they do it outdoors
Message:
For the indoors events: Videos are shown for a few hours then Rawat comes in and sits while several bands pretend to play prerecorded music then Rawat blathers for an hour then the bands play some more and then two more videos are shown.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:14:27 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Not sure how they do it outdoors- whaaat?
Message:
'several bands pretend to play prerecorded music'

What does this mean? Do they lip-synch? Do they just pretend to strum guitars but it's all pre-recorded?

God, I left when a program was still quite a fun production. Well maybe not. But the music was live and okay. Well, some of it. Well, I liked Kim Fields and those guys.

Well, anyway.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 01:06:02 (GMT)
From: Mr. Williams
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Not sure how they do it outdoors- whaaat?
Message:
I assure you that real musicians play real music at events: in Long Beach ('96 & '97), Wembley ('98), India always; and productions are still fun; it's so fascinating for me to read everyone's speculations and half-truths regarding current events.
Every head a planet, indeed. I consistently have a great time at these events, and I'm not a robot, or repressed, or sick, or sad, or depressed, or desperate. I'm just a guy---modestly successful materially & professionally, considered quite funny and intelligent; my ratio of 'premie' to 'non-premie' friends, contacts, acquaintances and associates is about 5-to-1, non-p to p.I have 2 fabulous children,a loving relationship with my mother & siblings, a complete set of neuroses and psychological problems, many, many interests and a few obsessions----and I happen to love Maharaji and love Knowledge. And that's it---love is pretty damn simple. Have incredible mistakes been made in the name of M? Yes. Has M made some incredible mistakes? Yes. Has he copped to them? Yes, generally, not specifically, many times.Should he be more specific about how some things got fucked up years ago, and how he's learned from his own experience, and that he's just a human, on a growth & learning curve about many things? Yes. Do I still love him, even though he fucks up? Yes, I do. Love is love. I love my kids when they fuck up. I love my parents, and they have fucked up big time at certain points. Love endures. Love is loyal. Is that too simple? Am I deluded? Your call. Does it ultimately matter what you think of me, or what your speculations are about my experience? No. Knowledge is a beautiful gift, and many people on this site still acknowledge that. Can you get the experience, the love, the resilience, the healing I've gotten from Knowledge, somewhere else? I don't know, but my speculation is yes, since I believe God is merciful and humans are wired to have this experience.
In the immortal words of Jimi Hendrix, one of the great teachers of this century:

'I'm the one that's got to die when it's my time to die, so let me live my life the way I want to.....'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 17:48:14 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Bollocks, Mr Williams, just because the music was
Message:
not canned at three events doesn't mean that it is not usually fake just like the rest of Maharajism.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 03:14:51 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: Mr.Williams-thanks,now how about the truth, please
Message:
I love the way you 'open minded' or 'liberal' types of premies explain it away so easily.
You mention a few problems, tell us that we're all human, so is m, and what's the problem? Are you perfect? No. So why can't he be imperfect too?

The problem with that proposition is this:

You and I did not:

Make millions off of premie slave labor who lived in ashrams and dedicated their life to m, because he told them unequivocally that he and he alone would bring peace to the entire planet, because he was the most powerful incarnation of god to ever walk the planet.

We did not say that we would rule the earth.

We did not tell married couple to split up.

We did not tell people to dedicate everything and move into ashrams and then dump those same servants when it did not serve his whim anymore.

We did not tell people that their minds would rot or they would shatter into a million pieces if they stopped meditating, and then a few years later tell those same people that if they don't like knowledge, they can 'walk'.

We did not hide and destroy all old publications because it was time for a new identity. Not god anymore, just your friendly meditation master.

Do you realize how much hypocricy m and the premies try to hide?
And how the more you try to do it, the more transparent it all becomes?
Do you see how insecure he is?
How afraid he is of the truth about his personal life getting out?

Do you realize how much you are going along with his bullshit?
Do you realize how obvious it it to outsiders?
Do you realize how by going along with his charade, you are becoming just like him?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 01:33:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mr. Williams
Subject: That's pathetic, Mr. Williams. Simply pathetic
Message:
You don't 'just love' Maharaji, you idiot! He's the Lord of the Unjverse you promised your life to in a solemn, secret cult initation ceremony years ago if you were around then. He's your cult leader. There is nothing simple, natural open or healthy in your imagined 'relationship' with him. So give me a break with the 'golly gee, ain't love sweet' L'il Abner routine. It's so amazingly out of line here it's preposterous. You sound like Patty Hearst talking about Field Marshall Cinque, her SLA kidnapper with whom she 'fell in love' after he courted her through the closet door for six weeks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:56:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: No lip-synch but music is recorded
Message:
and the musicians just play air-guitars. You would not like Kim's voice anymore. It has become strident and harsh and she never had perfect pitch to start with. Poor lass really has lost what little talent she had. But Daya sings beautifully in a smoky mezzo and has a career in music if she wants it singing torch songs in Las Vegas.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:58:42 (GMT)
From: Tony(Aussi Ji)
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: No, Pat! please it is torture just thinking about
Message:
it.Please stop!
I remember donkeys years ago going to a video afternoon with a mate and they played a video that went for 2 hours and after it was over the person in charge asked if everyone wanted to see it again.My mate and I were both stunned when the majority said YES.We walked outside and fell on the lawn in uncontrollable laughter until we were asked kindly to PISS OFF!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:07:17 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: jagdeo and m's comments
Message:
i've got $10 for anytaker(s) that m will say nothing, nada re jagdeo while at the program...publicly at the program. abi's father might just might get a update from valario...perhaps maybe remotely perhaps without having to ask for one. any takers?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 17:00:25 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: jagdeo and m's comments
Message:
Michael, welcome back. Would love you and your partner to post to my 'Revisted Life Beyond M' before it gets archived.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 02:34:53 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Wildflower
Subject: jagdeo and m's comments
Message:
sorry wildflower...missed it...really swamped here these days...building a gymnasium at our waldorf school i;m kinda project manager as building committee chair...and getting off ground this and next few weeks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 13:54:58 (GMT)
From: Wildflower
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: jagdeo and m's comments
Message:
Sounds like a busy time, all right. You're lucky - you sound like your Waldorf school is forward thinking. Ours is a k - 8 with some stodgy anthroposophical true believers and I can't imagine them getting behind a gym, even though the regional k - 12 school has one. Have fun!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:12:21 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: That's no way to bookmake, Mike
Message:
No one will take you up on your bet because it's sure thing. Now, if you had said the opposite, you'd have had plenty of takers and stood to either lose a lot or win a lot like a real, gambling man. Perhaps Sandy can run THAT book.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:43:47 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Donner, you giving odds, or straight bet? nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 07:02:13 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: what I heard from DLM insider way back when:r.e.m.
Message:
The Truth and full extent of what I know r.e. this matter:

Back in the mid-1970s, a credible and well-placed premie friend/insider reported to me that he had been in Denver and in Malibu, where there had been official discussions and concerns expressed by parents and teachers alike about Jagdeo performing so-called 'Knowledge sessions' with premie children.

He said that at the school, Jagdeo had been closing the door and turning out the lights and conducting some kind of junior knowledge sessions with the children.

He also said that this subject Did, in fact, come directly to Maharaji's attention at that time, and that m. thereupon told Jagdeo to stop doing these junior knowledge sessions anymore.

That's it; that's all I know. However, that means: Maharaji personally knew at least something about this matter -- if perhaps not the actual sordid facts.

I hope what I have related has helped somehow.

Let us ALL conduct ourselves with empathy now for each other, please. Evil is the absence of empathy [quote from the Nuremburg trials].

Peace,

PS Mike, I am not a gambling man, either.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:05:33 (GMT)
From: Tony Walker (Aussi Ji)
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: Depends if it Aussie or US dollars
Message:
G'day MIke,
We're a bit touchy at the moment about US dollars.It is mainly on account of Aussies having to pay double the amount of rego for the event,as opposed to our American cousins.I'm not a betting man either.I don't think you will find many takers for your wager.LOL.

Cheers Tony.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:31:10 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: jagdeo and m's comments
Message:
I think hahaji is taking us for suckers. No ten bucks for me. EV will apologize fuck all. If they do, their ass is trash.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:32:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: michael donner
Subject: You're on!
Message:
Only, seeing as this was your idea, I get to pick what side I want to bet on, right? Like flipping a coin?

So my bet is that m will say nothing at all about Jagdeo.

That'll be American too, right? None of this Canadian shit.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 23:53:48 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're on!
Message:
nice try jim...the offer is that m will say nothing...u.s. or canadian either way...but ... really just responding to some comments that some believed that m would say something publicaly re jagdeo...i see that none of them want to back up those expressions with $10 my u.s. dollars against either aussie or canadian...so i am sweetening the offer...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:39:25 (GMT)
From: bill--(ah, jim...)
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Sure! You lost the last bet with no real evidence,
Message:
cmon Jim, we can finesse this somehow, you know, twisting
some of rawat's blabber to fit our purpose.

If we lose, hell, Donner has done us more than 10$ of good here.
With 10$ more for pot, Donner may have another wave of revelations uncorked. Money well spent Jim!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:56:53 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Jim and mike
Subject: I dont have ten dollars but I think...
Message:
He wont mention it directly but inuendo about restitution, guilt,mistakes, corporates , responsiblity and or the past and how knowledge frees one from such worldly shenanigans

that way those that know will be mullified and those that dont know about it will think it is just normal flatsong.

i also think he will muzzle the staff from speaking about it with the premies or amoungst themselves


Zelda

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:22:46 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is m's Portland declaration related to jagdeo?
Message:
according to those who went to Portland, m was bashing ev and saying that he didn't like them, and who needs an organization or community anyway, since they have satellite tv etc....

I'm wondering if this is his first step towards distancing himself from ev, in case ev finds itself in the middle of a lawsuit(s)....

He can-
1)give the illusion to the true believers that they will be getting even closer to him, by eliminating the ev middlemen (he has used this one many times before to drum up interest)
2)accuse ev of screwing up his work, and distance himself from ev if necessary, in case of a jagdeo related lawsuit...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:24:29 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: He's been trying to distance himself for ages.
Message:
Hi la-ex,

Captain Rawat has been trying to distance himself from his cult for ages. It's like he's opened a bar somewhere that has turned out to be such a disaster, he only visits when it's absolutely necessary, and then pretends it's nothing to do with him.

He hates to take responsibility for anything. It's always somebody elses fault. He believes he's perfect.

He wants all the benefits of being God on Earth, but none of the responsibility. He likes the private jets, speedboats, servants, Mercs, Ferraris etc, but hates dealing with the mess created in providing these things.

His personal life indicates the same pattern of confusion and avoidance of responsibility.

Who knows, maybe his cries of, 'The cult has nothing to with me. I'm innocent. Krishna crown, what's that?', are really a cry for help.

He's one confused Satguru. It's time he called it a day and tried to create an acceptable personality for himself. Lord of the Universe just doesn't do it any more.

He should start reading EPO and the forum. He should come here and talk to us. Maybe we can help point him back to sanity.

Anth ever the optimist.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:50:55 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: He is prepareing for the mag article? and IRS?.nt
Message:
asdg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:43:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: There was talk of EV being disbanded last year
Message:
A soon as the satellite broadcasts became a fixture last year rumors began to filter down from whom I do not know that there was now no more need for a PWK community, video events or EV.

Visions International would organize appearances by the speaker and continue to handle the distribution and broadcast of videos and other materials under revocable licence from Rev Rawat.

Before I saw behind the wizard's curtain I thought this was great and so did most of the PWKs who have long regarded EV as a necessary evil which stood between them and You Know Who.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:14:55 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Tim Gallway
Message:
Tim Gallway is also one of the current inner-circle, x-rated premies. What does he bring to the table - tennis lessons?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:09:43 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Tim Gallway
Message:
All I can say is that a friend of mine had the book so I picked it up and was leafing through it and got totally disgusted with it it is gueared to big CEOs nothing about the regular Joe that has to work for one of those jerks.
I guess it reflects the fact that guruji and EV are just a corporation that cares for nothing more than the bloody dollar and not just one of them millions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:56:16 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Tim Gallway - not another hot air salesman
Message:
I guess, if you've been breathing Guru Goodbar's bullshit-stinking hot air for 20 odd years, all you know is how to generate more hot air.

My experience of these ''management consultants'' was when the hospital that I worked for merged with another hospital and the combined staff was downsized. The consultants were called in to run seminars which would distract middle management while top management did their dirty deeds. Committees were formed to discuss workload changes etc. Nothing was ever decided but, when the management consultants finally left, the remaining staff all had twice as much work to do.

Lenin used to form committees to get trouble makers to spin their wheels and use their energy arguing. As he said ''committtees are for postponing decisions until they are moot.''

Smart CEOs know these hot air salesmen are useless but they use them to placate personnel while downsizing them.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:10:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, you should be a business guru yourself.
Message:
Hi Pat,

In the post below, Francesca quotes from an Inner Game Website,

'Last year he also trained all the top management of Southern New England Bell in two-day seminars designed to alter SNET's management paradigm from a command and control context, to a learning context at a time when the company was facing down-sizing and open competition for the first time.'

It looks like you hit the nail on the head. Send Tim in to give the middle management a consciousness expanding seminar, while the upper management work out their payoffs and fire everybody.

If only Captain Rawat had been a left wing revolutionary, we could have taken over the world and created the socialist paradise by now.

Anth- if only I'd moved my management paradigm from a command and control context, to a learning context everything would have been alright.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:41:45 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, I often wondered what sort of character
Message:
went into hot air manufacturing and sales and I finally realized that it was the same old hucksters who've been around ever since the snake got Eve to eat an apple. The unscrupulous preying upon the unconscious. The stupid scamming the gullible. But as Joe would say, ''Yeah, they're stupid all the way to the bank.''
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 21:24:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Here's more Tim Gallwey sites
Message:
All his inner game stuff -- tennis was just the first one. How 'bout the Inner Game of Work, o change consultants?

You can buy a pre conference workshop tape for $24

And here's his rates for speaking from Consciousness Unlimited

And on Think smart
it says: 'For the last five years, Tim has been the primary external consultant to The Coca Cola Company, developing a corporate learning culture. He designed and conducted twelve four-day seminars which trained Coca Cola's top international management team, and as many two-day seminars to help middle management maximize the on-the-job team learning.

Last year he also trained all the top management of Southern New England Bell in two-day seminars designed to alter SNET's management paradigm from a command and control context, to a learning context at a time when the company was facing down-sizing and open competition for the first time.'

So drink a coke for ol' Tim! There's way more, but it's more of the same. Just do a search on Tim Gallwey at www.google.com and you'll get it all.

Yes, I think old goo-goo Raji is going to have a run for his money if any of these guys jump ship and go into the guru business.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:34:23 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The Inner Game of Cleaning the Septic Tank
Message:
I think that's the next book on the list, seeing he has milked that concept dry on almost every other subject.

I have it on VERY good authority that Tim didn't actually write some of those books. They were ghost-written by at least one, highly underpaid, but nevertheless talented, premie writer, who shall remain nameless.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 07:47:25 (GMT)
From: Jan Freeman
Email: jfreeman@healthreaction.com
To: Joe
Subject: The Inner Game of Cleaning the Septic Tank
Message:
I quote Joe

'I have it on VERY good authority that Tim didn't actually write some of those books. They were ghost-written by at least one, highly underpaid, but nevertheless talented, premie writer, who shall remain nameless.'

Can I say Joe that I'd love to get in touch with this 'highly underpaid, but nevertheless talented, premie writer' as I have some work for them.

Or haven't I read far enough into this list yet to discover that this poor abused soul is tied up in chains in a remote castle on the Malibu Mountains, fed only enough to keep him brainwashed enough by the Guru's mumbo jumbo, so that he can be exploited by all these crafty Big name characters (Tim Guru etc) who also affect hospital management teams all over the world.

I am getting the gist aren't I?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 20:47:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jan Freeman
Subject: Reduction to Absurdity, Jan
Message:
I said some of his books were ghost-written, and the person who wrote them wasn't paid very much. That's what I said. Do you disagree?

The tied in chains crap is all yours Jan, but just reducing what I said to absurdity does NOT constitute an argument, nor is it a valid point.

Have anything to say?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 19:15:45 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jan Freeman
Subject: Jan, I think Joe was being reasonable
Message:
Jan,

Tim Gallway did very well out of his books and fame. There has been a culture within EV/DLM of people doing work and not being properly rewarded. If Tim has benefited from the work of others who have not been properly rewarded, then it's reasonable to mention it on a website that exists to try to expose the truth about the Maharaji cult.

What's your interest here? Are you someone who holds Maharaji in high regard? If so, I recommend you read the other information on the www.ex-premie.org site (link above), before posting here (although you are of course welcome to post here without being fully informed).

John Brauns

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 16:18:36 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jan Freeman
Subject: Jan, what are you saying?Whats your point? nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:36:08 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Naming the Nameless
Message:
That was er James Cameron wasn't it?

Know it All

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 07:54:14 (GMT)
From: The First Know It All
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Hey you did it again
Message:
I think I know who you are, so I get that your intentions are good. Please use another name. Don't mean to be pissy about this.

G'day mate.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 22:21:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Gallwey was just another fucked-up bongo to me
Message:
Mentioned this before but when I met Gallwey he was just another extremely crazy-eyed freak wandering around the Kissimee festival site in the middle of the night wrapped in a blanket. I was doing 'premie assistance'. He showed up almost unable to speak, he was so freaked out on the usual toxic brew m was serving us. He asked for my help but, unlike others who had completely lost it, he was strangely haughty. It was as if, even though he was now reduced to a useless puddle of malaise and spiritual introfuction, he was still a premie VIP. Arrogant to the max. Fuck him.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:17:39 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I think he was just having problems
Message:
Strange that he acted haughty. That's the last thing I would have thought. I knew him and his family when I lived in LA, as aquaintances in the same community, and I had met him once in 1973 when I was an aspirant and he was a nobody. Before the inner game -- when it was just an idea he had, and before he had married Sally, and he was always personable, just a regular guy. Sally's daughter Stephanie became a good friend of my sister's. Of course when he moved up in the corporate world and became an upper echelon pwk, I didn't interact much with them because they moved in such a rarified circle at that point.

I do know that he was going through a personal crisis around the time of the Kissimmee programs. Probably some sort of cognitive dissonance. He looked like a disheveled bag man and I didn't know him well enough to know what was going on in his head. I just know that he came out of it.

I heard several stories about the state he was in, but no use repeating them here because I do not have first-hand knowledge. Suffice to say the guy has had a dark night of the soul. And still cast in his lot with the hamster.

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:43:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: You can say that again
Message:
Problems? Oh yeah. He was having problems alright. But one of his problems was that he clearly presented as if he was above the rank and file premies who might normally stumble into a Cult Emergency Placating Center in the middle of the night with their cult leader's fearsome Lord of the Universe rant still ringing in their ears. We were there to pat backs, mutter sweet nothings and the like. He couldn't believe the fact that he was actually reduced to accepting such help what with being Tim Gallwey and everything.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 19:50:49 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You say
Message:
You rant on about things that happened to a person years ago and fail to acknowledge that the guy picked himself up and has achieved decent things in his life since that moment long gone.

CD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 23:00:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Don't worry, Chris, just have a nice day, 'kay?
Message:
It's okay, Chris. Nothing for you to worry about. Wouldn't want you to try to connect any dots, now would we?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:55:15 (GMT)
From: More Sugar
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: Tim Gallway
Message:
A giant penis!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:33:13 (GMT)
From: Nick Danger, 3rd Eye
Email: None
To: Ian Dury
Subject: iChange--management consultants
Message:
I think Tim Gallwey is part of iChange, a management consultant something-or-other which employs several X-rated prem-de-guerres, such as Jean-Marie Bonthous. Tim G. has name recognition, similar to Tony the Tiger and his Frosted Flakes, so he gets trotted out to speak, lending his impressive credibility to whatever function he's supporting. Talk about Frosted Flakes.

I find it ironic that there's so much 'change' consulting, where the defining dynamic of remaining a premie is the ability to not change. C'est la guerre, I guess.

Here's the URL for the site: http://www.iChange.org/

You have to log in and register a password before you can travel the site.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 16:09:06 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: all
Subject: the agony of change
Message:
These change seminars, as others have said on this thread, are there to help people cope with the agony of change in the workplace (ie, downsizing). Changes enforced by the top management in companies, which are going to happen anyway, it's just a way to placate people and to help them adapt. I went through many such seminars when the hierarchy would change about every two seconds at the World Bank.

It is ironic but it actually makes alot of sense that premies are leading these change seminars, who are well versed in translating management imperatives into flowery language and make it all look so positive. Maharaji is just one big corporate entity after all. And in M's oh-so cut and dried philosophy, everything is a 'game' with rules that either spell success or failure. (Why, in today's world, there's even a book about marriage called 'The Rules' written by some scary stepford wives, one of whom is going through a divorce.)

Sounds like Tim went through hell at Kissimmee--talk about the 'agony of change'! His cognitive dissonance was, no doubt, his mind NOT wanting to be led around by the nose by the Lard. But he ultimately surrendered and 'adapted,' bringing a strange kind of inner peace. The inner peace of being anesthetized on the table before the big lobotomy. He mastered the rules of that game, all right! Too bad he didn't tap into that existential hell a bit more at Kissimmee and get a clue, that's the book I would like to read! 'The End of the Game: How I Got My Independent Thought Back after Being a Lobotomized for the Lord'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:26:23 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Nick Danger, 3rd Eye
Subject: iChange--management consultants
Message:
Well I guess this is where the synchronous-team-building-life-affirming-responsibly-dedicated-evolving consciousness mumbo-speak comes from unless Dettmers is surreptitiously still in the loop.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:47:44 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Gary and Francesca
Subject: Churning out the toasters .
Message:
I'd never heard of Rhadasoami , or knew that Rawat had any 'history' other than being the latest & most powerful in a line of Satgurus until I found this site .

From what I can gather Rhadasoami seems to be a sort of Hindu Methodism , founded in the early 19thC , & rawat's cult is one of its far flung tentacles .

It seems that many of the lieutenants of the various gurus of this movement , including DLM/EV , have successfully set themselves up as Business Consultants in the area of persuading workforces to be more productive through 'motivation'.

Now,I would rather be cossetted into a boring job than prodded into one with a bayonet , but it's important to know where the notions that manipulate our lives come from .

Otherwise we are truly slaves .

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:40:20 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Churning out the toasters .
Message:
You wrote: Now, I would rather be cossetted into a boring job than prodded into one with a bayonet , but it's important to know where the notions that manipulate our lives come from.

Well my life is no longer manipulated by k or m or variant radsoami notions. As for the phenonomena of so many lieutenants of DLM/EV and other guru acts getting into the motivation/consultant/inner game racket I think it has to do with what do you do after pissing away 20 years of your life without any specific career path/training/education - you become a consultant - an expert at surviving disfunctional organizations, dealing with top-down megalomaniacal leaders, and leading the rank-and-filers down the garden path, in other words, go with what you know.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 16:14:15 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: Churning out the toasters .
Message:
Yup. Good to know being premies prepared us for something! Let's all become management consultants!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:32:57 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Good one bin -- you still need to
Message:
fill me in on the 'toasters' concept though!

It is true that what goes around comes around. These brainwashing and manipulation techniques are definitely flowing around the pewk circles. I want to literally hurl when I read some of this corporate babble.

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:16:33 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How blatantly deceptive can they get?
Message:
From Elan Vital's UK website

'Admission to all the events organised by Elan Vital is free. This is made
possible by the support of volunteers and donations. Maharaji himself
receives no compensation from Elan Vital. Elan Vital co-operates with
similar organisations around the world sharing common aims and
objectives.'

Is there anything true about any of these statements?

Anything at all?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:37:06 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: How blatantly deceptive can they get?
Message:
Truthful version:

Admission to all the events organised by Elan Vital is free for the two aspirants but the rest of you suckers have to pay a registration fee far in excess of the cost of the event.

This is made possible by the support of volunteers and donations. Volunteers are those people who pay the mandatory registration fee. Donations are those funds collected at the door where you will be shaken down for more money.

Maharaji himself receives no compensation from Elan Vital as he has already enriched himself from money which he took from DLM and the ashram premies. He now receives payments only from Visions International to whom he has given a revocable license to publish and broadcast his blather.

Elan Vital UK co-operates with similar organisations around the world such as EV USA, EV Canada, EV Australia, EV South Africa and DLM India sharing common aims and objectives of further enriching Rev Feelgood Rawat.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:35:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: payments
Message:
I think he also gets payments from Elan Vital Ltd., Ivory's Rock Conference Center, and International Conference Management, also gifts from premies and shares of premies' businesses.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 19:35:07 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: It's the same old story as the 70s
Message:
The first hit is free. After you are brainwashed and get K (unless you are smart enough to bolt), you think you are doing a service to mankind to give money to M, and to pay registration 'donations' for programs so that others can come and be suckered. I remember that during the years I was around it was very clear that the Western premies and ashrams were a cash cow so that he could tour all over the world and spread the message to those less fortunate souls. One of my earlier 'drips' was that he didn't seem to care for us. He'd tour about all over the world, and then have expensive programs here in the West, and way less of them.

He uses EV to spread the word and brainwash folks, and then rakes in the dough free of EV. Money given to him directly isn't tax deductible, either. Double suckered.

The latest sucker was to pay $75 a month to Visions so that everyone else can tune in M on the dish for free. I would LOOOVVVE to see the ratings on how many people tune that one in! I suppose premies are being told that now M can get his message to the world, because the 'dish' broadcasts will also be free. Let's wait for peace on earth to happen real soon.

Has anyone watched these dish bored-casts? I'm just wondering how the new folks will be able to be brainwashed if all they do is listen to him. Are there announcements and adverts to buy your 'breathe' watches and join in a local community? Or what? From the satsangs that I have seen, the message is still that you are wasting your life if you don't follow K and him, and that of course, you are not worthy, so do they think that's enough? Feedback, anyone ???

Yes folks, low self-esteem will bite you in the a$$ is you meet up with the Smart-guru.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:26:52 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: One of my last 'drips'...
Message:
In the summer of 1998, I think it was, when the Rat had begun using the DishNet there were two groups (communities) of premies, VT-North (Montpelier area) and VT-South (Brattleboro) on the border of Massachusetts. The other premie group was in New Hampshire. When the Montpelier coordinator resigned, a woman from Middlebury, VT took over and moved the meeting place to her home and she and her husband bought a dish. Someone in Montpelier also got a dish and the folks in New Hampshire also got one. All in their homes.

It was very confusing first because EV or Visions always wanted a head count in advance of the broadcasts in order to estimate how much to expect from our ''donations''. They gave a whole song and dance about having to buy time on the satelite server, DishNet, blaa, blaa, blaa.

Anyway, my last drip was the fact that when Maharaji was speaking twice per day, two days in a row, once in the morning and once in the evening, it was $25.00 to $39.00 to watch each video feed--at the time he still allowed some live feeds--and it would cost at least $100.00 to watch him on TV over a weekend. They had a whole other set of ''charges'' if the feed was broadcast in a rented hall.

The last time I attended one of these ''feeds'' I was killing time in between the morning one and the evening one (because nothing was happening in between) and I started reading one of the guidelines sent from Visions for charging for the feeds. In one of the paragraphs explaining how to charge folks I read the following ''...all PWKs attending are subject to a fee of...'' DripDripDrip!

Subject to? Subject to? I literally got an upset stomach. Now, this was during my short attempt at returning to his creepy toes, and that was the final straw. No. I finally said no, Goober, I don't want to spend my life traveling 75 miles round trip to pay to watch you on TV. No. I don't want to pay to travel 180 miles round trip if the feed is only available in New Hampshire. NO. NO. NO.

At the time I was trying to keep my credit card debt down, but Visions wanted only credit cards. I kept saying to myself, 'what is this shit?' So I always paid with a check (which wasn't Visions preference, and it always took them over a month to clear, so I don't know what that was about either).

No one spoke to eachother. You couldn't talk to aspirants. The only people who had anything to say were us old timers, and it certainly wasn't satsang. No one would give me any history of the ''evolution.''

I do remember one time a few of us were sitting around waiting for the feed to start and the subject of Fakiranand came up. Well, the story was all screwed up. Someone said he hit a guy in Detroit over the head with a hammer during a knowledge selection because the aspirant said something negative about Maharaji. There were a bunch of laughs (yes) and the person added 'Yeah, and they got him out of the country REAL fast!' More laughs. I couldn't believe it.

DRIP!

All these things turned me off badly, not to mention Rev Foolhardy's crassness (the advent of his toilet humor), the expense of going to a regional event in Boston was very high--and poorly attended. Nothing made sense to me anymore, and I guess that's because I had spent enough time away from worshipping the lardness to be able to think, question, and analyze. It was all too weird for me. I do remember thinking: I am not going to follow Maharaji anymore. Period. When I got a computer and online, I came here instead!

Everything was about money, money, money, money--in a real rude way, too. It was also during that time that I heard rumors that his lardness wanted a new jet. I kept asking, what happened to the DECA 707? No one would talk about the past. No one. It was forbidden. It gives new meaning to ''loose lips sink ships!''

After I read this site, I felt great relief because I knew I didn't have to feel guilty anymore, and could also save a lot of money by xing him out of my life.

I don't know what their procedures are today for charging for the feeds. I am just so happy I'm finally out.

Cynthia


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:21:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: God, it sounds creepy
Message:
Cynthia, thanks for that post. That's very interesting.

When you say no one would talk about the past or about the 'evolution,' were you asking about it and nobody would tell you? Did you get the impression that they were afraid to say anything about it?

So, when they had the satellite feed at somebody's house, did somebody come around and collect the money from you? If you said you didn't have it, would you have to leave? Did aspirants have to pay as well?

What do you mean by Maharaji's 'toilet humor?' Can you remember anything specifically.

As you know, I know people in your neck of the woods who, like you, were not really followers of fatso for a long time, but went back. The husband, I do not believe is really into it, but is just playing along to mollify his wife. I truly believe that, because it's someone I know very well. I'm looking forward to having a conversation with him in the near future.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 16:03:57 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It was plain old Creepy and Weird...
Message:
Hi Joe,

In response to your questions:

When you say no one would talk about the past or about the
'evolution,' were you asking about it and nobody would tell you?
Did you get the impression that they were afraid to say anything
about it? So, when they had the satellite feed at somebody's house, did somebody come around and collect the money from you? If you said you didn't have it, would you have to leave? Did aspirants have to pay as well?

I left the ashram in 1981 and was gone roughly 16 years. I missed a lot of stuff that happened, including the ashram closings, although I had seen M twice in the early 80's, once in Boston and also in NYC. I directly asked a lot of questions, especially about DECA and the 707 (btw, when I mentioned DECA I got a very bad vibe to shutup), why m had mandated that premies not give satsang, where did all the premies go, vegetarianism, the techs, smoking, drinking--no answers, but ''just watch the videos and you will get your answers.'' (I later discovered I had been doing the techs backwards from the way I was taught, and had a good laugh on M after I became an ex--they actually worked better the way I was doing them!) The only answers were generally ''that's what m wanted, m was very gentle when he closed the ashrams, he feels it is best if only he speaks of k.'' It was very uncomfortable, especially because I felt I had re-entered M's world, but it felt like a wasteland, a no-man's land. It wasn't so much a fear of answering my questions, rather a secrecy, a protection, which felt like they were under a 'gag order.' Very strange.

As far as collecting the fees, it was an unspoken thing that if you didn't have the money, you didn't attend, except for aspirants who were not expected to pay. No one collected the money, we would just either write out checks at the end of the day or fill out a credit card slip and place it into the little wooden donations box--which was always placed on a table--even at the twice weekly video shows.

What weirded me out the most was the Visions system of distributing monthly videos to the communities. It was set up so that each community had to subscribe at $275 (then) per month to receive the ''official subscription selections,'' but if you had bought a video directly from Visions it could not be shown in public venues, even if only premies attended. (God I hate that word, venue, now.) Anyway, because VT had so few folks, both the northern and southern premies shared the subscription fees and videos. I asked about this, thinking, what difference does it make if it's the same fucking tape--Hello? But Visions explained it away as a copyright thing. It was the strangest setup, because still being a true believer, I couldn't understand how this procedure was helping to spread k when Visions knew they were stretching the premies everywhere very thin. My sister told me they had the same problem in Hartford--not enough regular attendance and donations to cover the subscriptions. So what the coordinators would have to do is call premies with money to beg for cash to support the subscriptions. It was so screwy, it's hard to even explain.

What do you mean by Maharaji's 'toilet humor?' Can you remember anything specifically.

I can't remember specific jokes, but he'd talk about overflowing toilets, falling into toilets that were not so clean, etc. and premies loved it. Maybe others remember some specifics. To me it was very crass. I also heard that Raja also included toilets in his speaks at the time, too.

Joe, I know you know the couple I'm talking about. I hope you can have a conversation with the husband. I never went back and haven't had any contact with them since.

Take care,
Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:51:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The toilet zone
Message:
I loved one toilet joke of M's from back in my days. He said something about, what if you flushed the toilet and everything disappeared, and you were just out there sitting in the universe, on a toilet seat.

I forget what the point was -- there probably was none. He used to throw these types of statements into his satsangs. It was a funny concept. I called it 'the toilet zone.'

I'm sure he's made a string of others since I've left.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:35:02 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, I was trying to remember a toilet joke
Message:
but I could not. All I know is the Rev Moonbeam did tell lots of scatological jokes most of which I enjoyed because I also have a coarse sense of humor unfortunately.

Your story above is almost word for word my own experience going back after 17 years. It was the secrecy which really got to me as well as Visions control of the video events. The videos were rated into three categories: 1) introductory 2)learning more - for aspirants 3) and those for PWKs only and god help you if you showed the wrong video to the wrong audience. If a new person turned up a suitable video was quickly found to replace the one for the PWKs. It gave me the creeps.

You said: ''I later discovered I had been doing the techs backwards from the way I was taught, and had a good laugh on M after I became an ex--they actually worked better the way I was doing them!''

They worked better because you were doing them the traditional way. Rawat teaches them backwards to impress peasants with light and music and it actually creates a battle with the mind.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:36:48 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks for the update
Message:
I've been gone so long that I need to be filled in. Pat C fills me in on a lot of it too, since he recently exited (this summer).

Love, f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:52:16 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: As I've said before to fringe PWKs: ''Go back!''
Message:
Get involved again. It's a sure-fire way to cure one of Maharajism once and for all. When you see that it is a money-making scam and a conspiratorial cult, it's over.

Praise the lord and pass the ammunition! Let's do the scumbag in. Not real ammo - I just mean spoken and written truth - words.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:06:57 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: One of my last 'drips'...
Message:
Hi Cynthia, powerful post, I am happy you are out too.

The money thing always got me and I kept it at bay thinking it was my mind but it bugged me terribly as it does today. The more time passes and I am out the clearer I get. I am still getting out of debt for going to India and other events. I am still trying to get my life together and gradually I am succeeding. I am so super glad I am not involved anymore.
It is a sham and the lard will fall by his own weight.

Mercedes

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 03:04:40 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: One of my last 'drips'...
Message:
Makes me think of the time I attended a program in Brighton, UK and I bought a video there - it was in PAL format (Europe) not NTSC (North America). Of course when I got home I couldn't watch it on my VCR. So I called up Visions and spoke with Mary Wishard and asked her if I could exchange the video for the proper version. She told me that I would have to go through Visions in the UK since that is where I bought it. I put up a bit of a fuss, and she called me back to say that she would (albeit reluctantly) send me the correct video but not without making it clear to me that Visions is a money losing enterprise (the intimation was that I should just keep the video and buy another correct video). I remember thinking that for all Mary knew I could be a dewy-eyed aspirant and that this was poor 'customer' relations. All this to say that if Visions is not a revenue generating machine and if the purpose of Visions is to do the good work of 'spreading k' and inspiring the faithful and not lining m's pockets, then Visions should have the transparency to communicate the actual costs of the satellite feeds, etc., to the 'shareholders' (contributors). Think it will happen?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:40:52 (GMT)
From: Maharaji
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: You're in your mind, Epton
Message:
After all I did for you! And you can't buy a single fucking video tape, for God's sake. You filthy piece of shit. I always knew you weren't the surrendering kind. I look at you, Epton, and I'll tell you what. Well, I'll tell you what I DON'T see. I don't see no fuckin devotee, that's what I don't see.

So you start posting on this fucking sewage pit of a website and all you can talk about is MONEY? What about the love, asshole? What about the fucking love you PROMISED -- that's right, PROMISED -- me for the rest of your stupid, miserable life, asshole?

I mean, you just look at all I did for you, you fucking little creep. I GAVE you this fucking knowledge to begin with (yeah I know, well we AAAALLLLL can make mistakes, asshole, don't give me any of that shit. Even I make a few once in a while). And I TRIIIIIEEED to teach you SOMETHING about devotion. And now look at you? You have any idea what my father would do to you if he were alive? He'd beat you the fuck up with a fucking stick, you little piece of shit, that's what he'd do. And you know what? I'd like to be there watching, yes I would. The nerve you got coming here after all those years and bitching about some fucking video that--hey, get this, looser-- you obviousl never understood no matter WHAT format it was in!

Fuck off ...no, this is better: Kiss my fucking feet, jerkoff!

Get lost!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 22:48:31 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: You're in your mind, Epton
Message:
Pranam Maharaji. Forgive me oh Lord for I have sinned. I am an insignificant piece of shit and I am not worthy to even gaze upon your digitized, sat-allah-lite, image. Instead of my love, devotion and money I offer petty complaints. Whining when I should be serving . . . the ungrateful, mind-full wretch that I am. Yea, I am not worthy to eat from the gold toilet in your yacht. Thank you for allowing me to at least give you ten years of my life in celibacy, poverty, and obeisance while you got drunk and stoned and laid in your little house on the prayery. I'm sorry Lord for thinking I was following your agya to assist in bringing Knowledge to the world - it failed because of wretches like me. To penance for my transgressions I promise to start participating synchronously with your local team. Your duly chastised, reversely and perversely evolved creep of a devotee, gary xxx
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 00:00:42 (GMT)
From: Maharaji
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: That's not good enough, asshole!
Message:
No, no, no, no,

NO!

You can't manipulate me with that transparent guilt trip bullshit, Epton. I'm the King of Guilt Trips, bud. I don't need some goofy-assed Canadian -- you ARE Canadian, aren't you? Fuck, what's with these Dudley Doorights anyway? Wasn't that Mishler guy ... no, not him. Whowas that other one? The guy with the moustache? What
's that? They ALL had moustaches? No, I'm talking about the one that always had the moustache. Fuck, I hate it when this happens?

Marolyn? Marolyn? Where is that bitch? Raja Ji, get off your fat ass and see if you can find her, will ya'? Tell her I've got something to ask ... no, wait. This is silly. Raja Ji, you can answer my question: what was the name of that guy, the accoutant guy from Canada.. DETTMERS! That's it. Thanks. Okay, you can go now. Y' hear me? You can ...

Oh, Marolyn, thanks for dropping by. What the fuck's wrong with you? Didn't you hear me calling? Like what the hell did you have to do that was so fuckign important that I have to call like that? Anyway, don't worry your still-kinda-pretty head over it. I don't need you anymore. Naw, I'm just talking about right now. Hey, relax, will ya'? I said I was kidding. Now get out of here, I'm talking with this little punk asshole here. This Canadian fucking premie piece of shit. You ever see anything this pathetic, Marolyn? Ok, you can go.

Dettmers! That was it? You ever know that guy, Epton? Well he was a lot like you only smarter. He actually went somewhere, if you know what I mean. Yeah, he was a Canadian too but that didn't stop him. You, on the other hand, Epton ..

Quit looking at me!

Did I say you could look at me? Listen, motherfucker, you're damned right that you don't appreciate dick. You don't appreciate dick because I haven't given you the gift of appreciation, fuckface. You've got nothing. I've got everything and -- here's how the game works. I, me, Maharaji -- get it? -- I have everything. You, piece-of-shit Epton, you got nothing. Now you want something? You ask.

Hey, what are you doing? YOU LOOK AT ME WHEN I'M TALKING TO YOU!

You got nothing, Epton, and that means you don't know shit about poetry, you don't know nothing about appreciation. Clarity is NOT a french liquer and gratitude.... I feel gratitude, Epton. Know what for? I feel gratitude knowing that I'm not you, asshole! yeah, I thank my lucky stars when I see something liek you that I'm a Rawat, not some nothing Canadian piece of shit like you. You know what it means to be a Rawat, stupido? No, you don't. You don't know shit so I'll tell you. Being a Rawat is like being way the fuck up there, you got that? It's like WAY the fuck up there! You know my idiot brother? No, not Raja Ji, Bhole Ji. Well even he's got something you don't have, asshole. Know what that is? He's a Rawat. You're a little twat and he's a Rawat.

Hey, I kinda like that. Maybe there's a poem or something. Got to give that to Daya. What are you looking at?? Didn't I tell you??

There, that's better. Listen, Epton, I'm tired now. Please tell Moni -- Marolyn. Please tell Marolyn to hold my calls and do yourself a favour, 'kay? Get the fuck out of here!

Marolyn! Marolyn! God, didn't I just call her in here? Where IS that woman?

Okay, Marolyn, listen, I want you to take Epton out to the kitchen and give him something to do. Epton, you're here to work, not eat. Not talk. Not do nothing I don't tell you. You're an inch away from some serious shit, Epton, and this is no time you want to be fucking with me. You got that? Good. Now fuck off.

I'm tired. Thanks, Marolyn. Watch the guy, huh? Got a bit of a bad feeling about him. For one thing, he's a starer. You know how much I hate that. He's got like no money, I don't think. Like I say, he's a piece of shit. They're ALL shit, Marolyn. I'm so sick of this crap but, well, what else could I do? No, this is my fate, fuck you very much. Prem Pal Sing Rawat, guru to a bunch of fucking goofs. Anyway, I'm tired. Gonna take a nap. When I get up I definitely don't want to see that guy around here. And you know I mean it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 23, 2001 at 06:00:34 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: Oh Maharaji, ---BEST OF FORUM you asshole!
Message:
n/t
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 15:13:58 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: That's not good enough, asshole!
Message:
Pranam and full castrations at your holy, curvaceous feet. Dear Lord, let me be so bold as to suggest your memory might be ever so slightly addled by your ministrations of cognac, the accountant from Canada was David Goulet. Whatever happend to him anyway, he was doing your books for a while wasn't he? But you're right he did have a moustache, and a very impressive one at that - he certainly gave Bihari-Ji a run for his curling wax. Hope all is going well with the fireplaces you're having installed on the yacht. Ahoy there matey and pay watchit anand,
your humble pile of crap, gary xxx oy
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:06:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: Hysterical!! This is a must read!
Message:
That really made me laugh! But maybe it's all the Pear Cider I've been drinking. Could be that, too.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:01:39 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Hello From The Front
Message:
I just want to say hello to all my friends at EPO.

My life has improved dramatically since I started posting here on October 3, 2000. I just went over my first posts and I shed a few tears. I am particularly touched by Sir Daves's response entitled 'Insidious hijacking of the English language' to one of my early posts. It was on October 4, 2000. Here's the link.

Thank you all for being part of my growth over the last six months.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:54:51 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Hello From The Front
Message:
Hi Steve,

I'm so happy to hear you are feeling better. Actually, the words have been a problem for me too--the goober really screwed up the meanings of so many that I found myself avoiding them.

But, we can reclaim them as our own again...it just takes time..

Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 16:16:02 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hello From The Front
Message:
Hello Cynthia. How's it going. Where do you live?

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:19:50 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Hello buddy
Message:
Howisitgoinn, long time no seen. Wazup?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 14:41:13 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: Hello buddy
Message:
Very weal, Salam.

I'm gonna see your compatriots AyCayDayCay today. Very exciting.

Steve

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:20:24 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Everyone
Subject: EV 'Trainings'
Message:
Could someone please enlighten me about exactly what kind of 'training' Valerio Pascotto conducts for EV? Is there any ex who has actually attended one of these trainings? What is the purpose or objective of the training? Who actually supervises these events? What happens during the training? Must one receive a personal invitation in order to attend or is it open to whomever desires to attend?

Is Captain Rawat discussed? Is EV discussed? If so, in what connection? Why do premies need to be 'trained'?

Are the qualifications of the trainer discussed?

Does one have to pay for being 'trained'?

Where are the trainings conducted?

Many thanks, Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:15:37 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: EV 'Trainings' - from JM's site
Message:

Here is a copy of a part of a letter that some premies have received ........
-----------

You are invited to attend a seven-day Training Conference...Maharaji has accepted the invitation to attend.

In order to achieve a high level of intimacy and exchange, participation will be limited to about 85 participants.

The following may be helpful towards your personal preparation for attending the training.

1.The Training Session is not a 'typical event' with the Speaker. The format of the session is designed to increase one's awareness of what it takes to support the Speaker's work and his vision.
2.The training requires a willingness to participate and examine oneself in a group environment in front of the Speaker.

Your discretion is important. Please honor this invitation by keeping your attendance and the location confidential.

Sincerely,

The Training Conference Team

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 15:18:54 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: EV 'Trainings'
Message:
Hi Marianne, I haven't attended any trainings but I can tell you that it all started with a form that premies filled out saying they'd wanted to be in a training. I guess it was for participation purposes but now if you've gone through one of those you can go through an introducing knolige or something like that. I never turned in any forms I think you can get them from the EV website. To me it didn't feel right plus it was about 2000 dollars. So yes you have to pay and I don't think there is any way to know what the qualifications of the trainer are. Sometimes rawat is present.

MY suggestion would be to download one of those forms to give you a better idea.
Mercedes

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:05:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Mercedes
Subject: EV 'Trainings' - see Atlanta 'Propagation Seminar'
Message:
Kelley transcribed this and I lampooned it. This was one of those exclusive training sessions for the rich diehards like John Horton (who was the only face in the audience that I recognized.)

They are based on the ''Birkman'' method which is basically to get people to pay thousands to sit and listen to hot air. It is an excuse for Rev Feelgood to prance and preen in front of his devotees and pretend that he is a CEO.

The insidious side of it is that it is more brainwashing, more mindbending to twist the intellect to accept the illogicality of accepting You Know Who as a ''Master.''

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:23:25 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat, still waiting for the video of that.
Message:
Do you have a copy? I heard Roger Ebert gave it two thumbs up.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:26:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Oops, Joe, I forgot
Message:
If I don't see you before Latvian Night I'll give it to you then.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:19:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Oops, Joe, I forgot
Message:
I may see you tomorrow night, from what I have heard.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 20:22:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Okay, will make copy for you today NT
Message:
l
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:25:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, you forgot to take the video.... NT
Message:
g
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:53:37 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Valerio Pascotto
Message:
On his web site Valerio says 'Valerio Pascotto obtained his Doctoral Degree in Psychology at Pepperdine University and holds a Psychology License, a Marriage, Family, and Child Counseling license and is certified as an independent Birkman consultant.'

What is a Birkman consultant?

Some info on his licenses:

Info on his Psychology License via a License Search for Psychologist:

Search Results for Psychologist (incl. Reg. Psych. and Psychological Asst.)

The information on this page was last updated on April 18,2001

To see all the information for a licensee, click on the highlighted name. This will also include disciplinary actions if any are present.

Name: PASCOTTO VALERIO
Type: PSY
Number: 13772
Status: Valid
Address City Zip: P.O. BOX 2063 MALIBU 90265
County: LOS ANGELES
Actions?: No

Name: PASCOTTO VALERIO
Type: PSB
Number: 16651
Status: Cancelled
Address City Zip: 2510 MAIN STREET #201 SANTA MONICA 90405
County: LOS ANGELES
Actions?: No

BOARD OF PSYCHOLOGY

Name: PASCOTTO VALERIO
Type: PSYCHOLOGIST
Number: PSY13772
Status: VALID
Expiration Date: March 31, 2003
Issue Date: March 03, 1994
Address: P.O. BOX 2063
City: MALIBU
State: CA
Zip: 90265
County: LOS ANGELES
Actions: No
Disciplinary Actions: No Records returned

BOARD OF PSYCHOLOGY

Name: PASCOTTO VALERIO
Type: PSYCHOLOGICAL ASSISTANT
Number: PSB16651
Status: CANCELLED
Expiration Date: January 31, 1994
Issue Date: October 20, 1989
Address: [removed by Forum Admin]
Actions: No

Supervisor Information
This registrant may only practice psychology under the direct supervision of a licensed psychologist or board-certified psychiatrist. The supervisor(s) is/are identified as:

Number Name Type Status
PSY8929 STRACHAN ANGUS MAXWELL PSYCHOLOGIST Valid

Disciplinary Actions: No Records returned

From Board of Behavioral Sciences VERIFY LICENSES
(see also Consumer Complaint Information):

The information on this page was last updated on April 18,2001

To see all the information for a licensee, click on the highlighted name. This will also include disciplinary actions if any are present.

Name Type Number Status Address City Zip County Actions?
PASCOTTO VALERIO IMF 11868 CANCELLED LOS ANGELES No
PASCOTTO VALERIO MFC 25270 CLEAR PO BOX 2063 MALIBU 90265 LOS ANGELES No
BOARD OF BEHAVIORAL SCIENCES

Name: PASCOTTO VALERIO
Type: INTERN - MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERAPIST
Number: 11868
Status: CANCELLED
Expiration Date: November 30, 1989
Issue Date: November 10, 1987
County: LOS ANGELES
Actions: No

Business Owners: No Records returned
Related Licenses/Registrations/Permits: No Records returned
Public Disclosure: No Records returned

BOARD OF BEHAVIORAL SCIENCES

Name: PASCOTTO VALERIO
Type: MARRIAGE AND FAMILY THERAPIST
Number: 25270
Status: CLEAR (License renewal fees have been paid and continuing education requirements (if applicable) have been met.)
Expiration Date: March 31, 2003
Issue Date: October 02, 1989
Address: PO BOX 2063
City: MALIBU
State: CA
Zip: 90265
County: LOS ANGELES
Actions: No

Business Owners: No Records returned
Related Licenses/Registrations/Permits: No Records returned
Public Disclosure: No Records returned

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:16:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: How embarrassing for Pepperdine
Message:
Shame on Pepperdine for giving a PhD to somebody who can't string two sentences together. I enjoyed reading the following from Valario's website, which is 'about the founder' of EOS, his consulting group. [I know I'm compulsive about this, but I just want to grab my red pen and fix it. If he was in my communications class, I would give him a 'D-.'] This is his on-line resume, after all. It some email or post.
This is how Valerio describes himself:

Dr. Valerio Pascotto is the founder of Effective Organizational Systems. Over the past fifteen years, he has helped many individuals and corporations to reach their potential and maximize their productivity.

Valerio, honey, that's the improper use of the infinitive, and 'potential' should be plural.

He has conducted seminars and developed programs for industry in the area of team building, leadership, and work effectiveness.

I think Valerio means 'areas.' What is 'work effectiveness?' I think he means 'effective work' or 'working effectively.' Come on. Do they teach English as Pepperdine? Who wrote his thesis?

Clients include the American Heart Association, Arco, the City of Pasadena, the Daily News, Ernst and Young, Fedco, First Interstate Bank, Fleishman-Hillard, Goldman Sachs, Pepperdine University, Southern California Edison, Southern California Gas, University of Southern California, and the Watts Health Foundation, among others.

Using 'include' makes 'among others' verbose. Pepperdine should also be ashamed for hiring this guy. I think I now know why Southern California Edison is just about bankrupt.

He has been a personal counselor to individuals in key management areas to improve their persuasiveness and communication effectiveness.

Valerio, regarding 'to improve,' you really have trouble with the infinitive. 'Communication effectiveness?' Good God. I don't know what that is, but I think it's safe to say Valerio doesn't have it. Do corporate honchos read this and other incomprehensible stuff on his website and still hire him to improve the communication skills of their employees? Is this another sign of how those who can't, teach?

I know Pepperdine was close to taking the unfortunate step of hiring Kenneth Star to be Dean of the law school, but I would say the Psychology Department isn't in such great shape either, if Valerio is an example of the alumni.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:37:25 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: His company should be named EGOS.....
Message:
Effective Guru Organizational Systems (EGOS)

Maybe goomraji gave him his English lessons...and they weren't very effective. LOL~!

Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 12:26:27 (GMT)
From: Mr. Mind
Email: None
To: G
Subject: re: Valerio's role in the cult
Message:
It appears that this dude is a liason between Rawat(aka You Know Who) and EV. He may use his particular skills to make manipulation of cult members 'understandable' to the poor unfortunates who believe EV exists to spread M's selfless message, i.e. K.

New cult members are no more than show ponies to demonstate to existing cult members that they aren't in a cult. The money must come from the old-timers in ever increasing amounts.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:23:58 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: some web posts by Valerio
Message:
Valerio posts:

http://www.wiredbrain.com/comments.htm
http://www.wiredbrain.com/doc1d.htm
http://members.tripod.com/wiredbrain/doc1d.htm

http://world.std.com/~lo/96.04/0179.html
http://world.std.com/~lo/96.04/0227.html
http://world.std.com/~lo/96.05/0360.html
http://world.std.com/~lo/95.09/0290.html

http://ftp.cac.psu.edu/pub/people/cxl18/digest/9709/d22.txt

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:12:26 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: G
Subject: This web post is priceless
Message:

Mr. Pascotto says:

'I am putting together a workshop and would like to have the participants be motivated to avoid judgments and the pursuit of 'right and wrong', but rather appreciate and stay aware of the subjective nature of their perceptions.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:24:34 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Pat Conlon, would you translate please...nt
Message:
asdf
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:55:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Valerio:avoid judgments ... of ''right and wrong''
Message:
That says it all, bill. More mindbending mumbo-jumbo. You have to be insane to follow Rev Strangelove and to rationalize it requires throwing out logic and reason and adopting Orwellian Newspeak - right is wrong, love is hate, peace is war.

Orwell was lampooning Stalin and his intellectual lackeys who twisted words to suit the Communist party line. Listening to this stuff often reminds me of my old 60s communist friends trying to justify Russian state oppression. Ayn Rand would have labelled it ''The Gallant Gallstone.''

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:42:07 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Valerio:avoid judgments ... of ''right and wrong''
Message:
Funnily enough (or spookily enough) a recent contributor to Enjoying Life with K (ELK) has this to say about losing the ability to discriminate at the Hamster's lotus paws:


Pure being...

When there is no day or night;
no good or no bad.
when all melts away,
then the only thing left
is pure being.

It is so, so sweet, so sweet...

Santilal Lala
East Hampton, NY, USA

And as for Signor Valerio Pascotto's new-age buzz-words, there's a very good jargon-generator at http://www.rodneymarks.com.au/main_page.htm (admittedly created by a comedian).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 07:37:39 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Valerio: lets all send him individually generated 
Message:
jargon letters from the website
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:35:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: let's send his clients some of his quotes
Message:
That is if anyone has a quote of some of the stuff he used to say. I believe that both he and his brother used to rant at big programs. I remember one of them saying at a 'festival' that

'There will come a time when you won't want an identity.'

That fits in with him still writing about going beyond ego.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 22:11:20 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Rev Feelgood uses that jargon-generator NT
Message:
k
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:07:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Birkman method
Message:
Here's a link to the Birkman stuff that Valerio is into. It's all about 'soft skills' man.

I don't see him listed as a consultant.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 07:40:13 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Sounds like Guru Feelgood learned Birkman method
Message:
What a lot of codswallop. I've sat through shit like this with facilitators sent by the management consultants. Basically it's training to use words to mean nothing, saying lots while saying nothing, sounding smart while talking tripe.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:56:55 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I knew it , it's all about ...
Message:
...churning out the fucking toasters .
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:38:45 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Clue me in on the symbolism
Message:
of the toasters. Maybe its my general condition tonight. What do you mean by the term? i.e. share the joke!

I think we're on the same page. What Valerio practices makes my skin crawl. A lot of money for hokum bunkum. Joan Apter, and the rest of them. Hot air job skills learned at the feet of the Master.

Corporate training. The economy is changing and firms will be getting lean and mean. These guys will need to go out and do some real work in about a year or so, except if they are really giving something of value. It's not just dot-coms going bust.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index