Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 22:15:37 (GMT)
From: Apr 15, 2001 To: Apr 25, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


JHB -:- Feeling and Intellect -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 00:04:20 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Beyond this duality -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 12:37:46 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Reply from below -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 15:53:50 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Where the illusion lies -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:27:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Where the illusion lies -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:36:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Where the illusion lies -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 22:58:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- SANFORD PASS IS A FUCKING MORON! -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:47:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Don't get sand(y) in your eyes Jim -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:29:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Where the illusion lies -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Beyond this duality -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:58:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- Moldy for sure, and warped to boot -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Sandy - I presume you are talking non-dualisticall -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:38:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- To MW -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:57:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- To MW -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 15:52:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- To gerry -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:36:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- what are you looking for sandy? absolution? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:44:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- This isn't a pissing match, Sandy -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:33:39 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You mean beyond being a full functioning person -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 12:55:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- My mere presence here refutes your remarks -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:38:49 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Feeling and Intellect - yes, I've been thinking -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 00:50:24 (GMT)
__ __ Curious George -:- TAnnhauser Overture -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:51:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Bruch Violin concerto - oh, yes, love it too NT -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:38:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Bruch Violin serenade and VC2 -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 21:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ C.G. -:- Gee Thanks! (O.T.) -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:43:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, G, thanks for the tip NT -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:16:59 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Feeling and Intellect - yes, I've been thinking -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:45:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- taking one's emotional temperature obsessively -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- taking one's emotional temperature obsessively -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 21:31:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- I've been thinking -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:08:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- wisdom -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:55:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Gregg - intuition -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:43:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- Pat- on fuzzy words for intuition and thoughts -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:24:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, Moldy, perfectly good words but Psi factor -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:46:26 (GMT)
__ janet -:- rejoinder to sandy on this aalso -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 00:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- back to janet -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:32:09 (GMT)
__ __ Mercedes -:- Right on Janet...Thank you! N/T -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:28:22 (GMT)

JANET -:- MODERN TRANSLATION OF YOUR VIEW -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:15:42 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Twist and shout -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:44:01 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- Twist and shouno sandy, i did it for this: -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 09:53:24 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Janet, this is out of line. -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 10:06:40 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Anth, you have my OK to publish the EV letters -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:46:04 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- I strongly disagree -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:37:16 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- I strongly disagree -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:49:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Standard premie lines -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:07:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- In this case, your observations are astute with -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:18:23 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- i was magnifying the iresponsibility and escapism -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:47:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You mean 'distorting' -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 12:50:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Where do you get this 'rights' thing, Dave? -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The Magna Carta -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:26:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Nice side-step, Dave -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:50:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Barnacle bill -:- go easy on the tards Janet, just laugh.....nt -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:29:14 (GMT)
__ JANET -:- THE ABOVE IS FOR YOU, SANFORD H PASS -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:19:24 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Give the guy a break Janet ...... -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:47:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- i am, bin.i'm clarifying his problem for him -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:54:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Yes, but... -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:50:53 (GMT)

Larkin -:- I am the very model... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:19:01 (GMT)
__ Larkin -:- Thank you everyone - I'm filling up... -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 18:07:49 (GMT)
__ __ Moldy Warp -:- Thank you everyone - I'm filling up... -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 02:03:09 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- BRAVO! Larkin! Sensational! n/t -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 15:25:24 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Gilbert and Sullivan were perfect masters too -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:53:04 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Gilbert and Sullivan - you surprised me, Jim -:- Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:24:46 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Give this poet a Nobel prize. -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 10:14:55 (GMT)
__ JANET -:- IT SPARKLES! it delights! it captures! yes! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:28:28 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- A lark in the afternoon -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:37:10 (GMT)
__ __ Curious George -:- A Lark in the Clear Air (Irish Folk Song) -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:11:43 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- I am the very model of a modern Major-general -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:34:31 (GMT)
__ Richard -:- I laughed, I cried.... A triumph! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- It's all brilliant but these lines:- -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:38:28 (GMT)

janet -:- to reiterate:justice re: jagdeo -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:03:03 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- justice- a place to start -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:54:10 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- the civil trial would order this as sentence -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 21:36:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- failure to report a felony ... is itself a crime -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 19:26:21 (GMT)
__ toby -:- to reiterate:justice re: jagdeo -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:31:49 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- REALLY? That's gross! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:22:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- did the housemate do it himself? oh the pain. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 21:40:16 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- I need to break a myth, toby... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:30:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I need to break a myth, Cynthia -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:44:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I agree with you Jim... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:32:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- I need to break a myth, Cynthia -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:05:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Agya, not Interpol. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:00:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- .....and pigs could fly in the middle of July -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:54:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- .....and pigs could fly in the middle of July -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:00:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Why July only?..nt -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:56:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Why July?..more flies in July except in OZ. NT -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:34:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Cynthia, Guru Goodbar is giving me a lot of laughs -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:07:48 (GMT)

Nigel -:- The Archbishop of Westminster -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:36:35 (GMT)
__ PatC -:- Exactly, Nige, Rawat'll brush it under the carpet -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:02:23 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- See, I LIKE where that goes -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:07:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Seeing is believing. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Right -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:50:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- At risk of repitition, I don't see it going there -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:32:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- why MJ wouldnt meet Abi, only her dad: simple -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:13:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- OkaAAAaayyYYY ......... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 19:04:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- GREAT POST Jim!! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:04:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- Jim, I've followed all your posts about this and -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:12:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- God, Pat, you make it sound like a cult! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:24:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Whatever gave the idea that is was a cult, Jim? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:41:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I give up. Let's ALL go back -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:44:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Saintly Charanand was getting laid back when? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:17:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Donner, can you elaborate please?.....nt -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:22:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Donner, can you elaborate please?.....nt -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Now you're talking, Jim -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:52:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good idea. Sandy? Dog? Let's go, boys -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:58:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Good idea. Sandy? Dog? Let's go, boys -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:14:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You enjoy Knowledge, Dog? Why do you need Rawat? -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:39:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You half outed me, I'll finish the job. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:40:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Bring it on, dude -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 12:17:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck off, Snady -- you have no right to say dick -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:31:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Attention all posters: Unless you were in the -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:17:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- No Sandy, you got it wrong -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 19:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Sez U -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:02:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- waste my time, then! try this on and explain: -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 00:18:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Just one more post before you leave -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:27:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- If a drunk saves your life and then he needs you -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:04:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- If an elf borrowed your favorite unicorn .... (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:48:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- or ET took the best UFO for a joy ride .... (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:36:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- or your leprachaun lost your pot of gold ....(nt) -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 16:02:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- or Shirley McLain misplaced a past life ....(nt) -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:19:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- or your dream interpretations are inconsistent (nt -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 00:27:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- or your spirit guide runs off with your medium (nt -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 00:46:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- or you don't know if your guru's God or Satan (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:22:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- or you know he's both but you're Zoroastrian (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 03:54:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- or you can't decide between Prempal and Satpal(nt) -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 04:14:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- or UR channeling Hans when Sat 'n Prem butt in NT -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:31:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh no, was I 'manifesting' again? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:33:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- 'any fair minded person should agree' you say. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 19:24:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Am tired of you picking on sweet, naive Jim, Sandy -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:30:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You talkin' ta me? Are YOU talkin' to ME? (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:20:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- 'any fair minded person should agree' you say. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 21:17:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- As usual, you eschew all the safeguards of reason -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 19:53:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Defer? Well, echewze me! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:37:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Don't have a right to say what? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:46:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Sandy, do yourself and your wife a favor -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:58:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- OOh - that's so apt, Jim! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:55:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Pat: Rev Feelgood Strangelove -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:50:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Gush gush gush (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Sour Grapes, Sandy? (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:54:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- OOh - that's so apt, Jim! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:17:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- The irony about the Indian premies is that they -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:34:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Hypocrisy and perversion is now ok? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 15:47:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Hypocrisy and perversion is now ok? NO! -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:27:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- It's a big pile of bullshit. -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:12:39 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- I agree.He'll use it to his benefit...nt -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:39:20 (GMT)

Joe -:- What actually happened? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:27:11 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- What actually happened? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:25:02 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- What actually happened? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:32:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- agree with your very valid points, Joe -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:17:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Very true Connie, thanks. (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:05:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- agree with your very valid points, Connie -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 05:49:31 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- If Maharaji were really honest -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:26:39 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 00:04:20 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Feeling and Intellect
Message:
I was trying to have an argument with Sandy below where he questioned whether I had feelings. After responding I went to the toilet and thought of a further response, which I decided was worth a new thread.

Feelings feel a lot better when they are in harmony with intellect. I had so many strong feelings as a premie, and generally interpreted them using my intellect in line with the Maharaji party line. This caused suppressed conflict in my mind because there was nothing else in my mind that supported most of those interpretations. I can now interpret those experiences using the rest of my mind, and it feels so good.

I am not certain that the experiences are totally physical, but then I'm not certain what physical means. I'm also not certain that the experiences prove the existence of god (whatever kind) or a spiritual realm. Of course, I'm open to a scientific model of spiritual experience.

So what I'm trying to say, after a Scottish spirit(ual) experience, is that we all have feelings, and they are important. We also all have intellect, and using it is important. I just wish people like Sandy would try to feel and think at the same time.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 12:37:46 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Beyond this duality
Message:
JHB,

I spent a large part of my young adult life looking for the meaning of Life. Maybe you did too. That search took me to alot of places and opened me up to alot of experiences, many of which I would say alot of us visited at one time or another. For whatever reasons, we all here settled on Maharaji at a point in time as the person who had the answer, the Knowledge, whatever you want to call it. For me, I had the sort of experiences that you read about in old texts. I had some very 'special effects' experiences way before receiving Knowledge while I was a closet aspirant, which took four years. These were the sort of experiences that you just don't chuck out the window when you hear some bad news. So I am in the process of balancing my own thoughts and feelings and 'spiritual' experiences myself.

Years went by. Shit happened to us and obviously shit happened to and around Maharaji. Many here claim that Maharaji was the cause of shit happening to many of us. Janet put up a pretty strong post below with a shitlist on it, as a matter of fact.

OK, so here we are now, years later and in different camps about what went down and why. I gotta tell ya that I am having some very strong thoughts and feelings about the whole thing. There are premies, ex-premies and then there are those like myself who want to go beyond this duality and continue on the path of light and love and inner fulfillment, not selfishly, but just to be all that one can be....you hit some rough road or a bridge out and you look for another route if you really want to get to where you were headed. I am sure that many here on this site want that too, but not at the cost of giving up on this crusade that has started to out someone who is commonly thought of here as a fraud. But how? I think and feel that he did in fact deliver the goods to the planet at large - Knowledge works, regardless of whatever composite of techniques it is, or the history of the ancient families - from my own direct experience. Yet my heart goes out to those who got caught in the administrative/heirarchical/dirtylittlesecrets side of the thing.

This is bigger than both of us, JHB. I have tried to reconcile both viewpoints and give both viewpoints a place in me to live, but this is becoming increasingly difficult. Being a basically amiable guy, I want everyone to be happy and friends. I can't make that happen on this one, and amiability must give way to something else. Premies tell me one side, ex-premies tell me the other side. The two sides don't fit together to become one thing. And the thing is, the only peace of mind and break from the duality I have enjoyed since I wandered down this road to your site is when I practice Knowledge.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 15:53:50 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Reply from below
Message:
Sandy wrote down below:-

If a drunk saves your life and then he needs you to bail him out of jail on a vagrancy charge are you going to let him rot there because he is a drunk? Does the fact that he saved your life have any juice?

Sandy,

If that same drunk came round to your house every day after you bailed him out of jail and asked for money to feed his drink habit, how long should your gratitude last?

I think I've paid for the meditation methods over and above the effort Maharaji went to to teach me them. In money $30,000 approx. In career damage, difficult to say. And in being indoctrinated to think that this world has no value, human relationships are chains, having a family is spacing out, and truth is something that can only be found by not thinking, well, I really do think I've expressed my gratitude more than enough.

Anyway, Maharaji didn't save my life, he got one of his staff to show me how to meditate. Big difference.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:27:04 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Where the illusion lies
Message:
I guess we've all said them at some time or other. Beyond duality, beyond the comings and going of this world, beyond life and death, even. But I think the real word affects us far more than we admit.

Do you think Maharaji practises knowledge? I wonder if you can still listen to him with the same reverence that you used to back in the seventies.

Do you realise that you have just as much right to speak about truth (as you see it) as Maharaji does? You also can give the four techniques of knowledge to people if you want. There's nothing and no law, either in Heaven or Earth to stop you from doing that.

You might be a better 'teacher' than Maharaji. People might find you more relatable and accessable and perhaps kinder. The only reason why Maharaji is revered is because it has been instilled into them that he is special. That is the illusion.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:36:02 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Where the illusion lies
Message:
Dave,

For whatever reason the powers that be saw fit to install Maharaji as the one who would be the young boy from the east who would travel to the west and spread the Knowledge of God to the world, it happened.

The illusion as I see it, is that some folks expected perfection on the physical level, which Maharaji always said not to look for, and they were sorely disappointed when things got messy and some very human frailties came to light among the elite of the organization including Maharaji.

Please continue if you wish, David. I appreciate your civilied way of disagreeing with me and I find it easier to communicate with someone like yourself who does not make it a personal war.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 22:58:18 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Where the illusion lies
Message:
Like a star travelling from the east to the west, you shall see the Son of Man come with great power and glory amongst the clouds. And every eye shall see Him... etc etc.

That's just from memory since I don't have a Bible handy. How about the marriage of the lamb? Some said that was Maharaji's wedding to Marolyn. Or the four horses of the Apocolypse? Some people thought they were the Beatles.

As I remember it, there's nothing in the Bible about the Son of Man going from east to west as a young boy but then I guess that's in the Sanford Pass version?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:47:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: SANFORD PASS IS A FUCKING MORON!
Message:
For whatever reason the powers that be saw fit to install Maharaji as the one who would be the young boy from the east who would travel to the west and spread the Knowledge of God to the world, it happened.

You're a dunce, shp. I agree, you should be kicked out of here for sheer stupidity.

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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:29:41 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't get sand(y) in your eyes Jim
Message:
How can you read his stuff! I can't bear it. That bit you picked out was a lulu. Knowledge of God. Fer sure fer sure.

Your brain will rot Jim. Rot I say! #-p

--f

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:04:40 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Where the illusion lies
Message:
Sandy,

Do you have any evidence at all apart from what Maharaji's devotees said and an obscure quote from the bible to support this outrageous statement:-

For whatever reason the powers that be saw fit to install Maharaji as the one who would be the young boy from the east who would travel to the west and spread the Knowledge of God to the world, it happened.

Do you really believe that?

If so, you really do have a long, long way to go:-(

John.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:58:05 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Beyond this duality
Message:
Sandy Wrote:

'Being a basically amiable guy, I want everyone to be happy and friends. I can't make that happen on this one, and amiability must give way to something else. Premies tell me one side, ex-premies tell me the other side. The two sides don't fit together to become one thing. And the thing is, the only peace of mind and break from the duality I have enjoyed since I wandered down this road to your site is when I practice Knowledge'

Moldy Replies:

Look Babe. You are getting muddled up between:

1: Some (unprovable and therefore possibly dubious)concept about 'seeing beyond the duality of the world to a reeealer reality where all is one'
AND

2: REAL LIFE . (also known as 'maya, the world of duality, illusion, bla bla')

A poodle and a montain gorilla may be 'all one' in reeeeealiteee, but it ain't gonna do you much good trying to mate them together.

Your lack of peace of mind comes from sitting on proverbial fence(ouch!)
AND
if you were the states in 1940, what would you do??? Say 'oh Germany and the allies are all one reeeeeally so I'll just sit under me blanket and contemplate inner bliss til they merge.
Hutler's a nice guy reeeeally and gas chambers have a cute side if you hang around one long enough'???

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:14:29 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Moldy for sure, and warped to boot
Message:
MW,

You sounded like Dennis Miller or Dennis Leary talking in their sleep. Some very caustic stuff, some wit too, especially about the dog and the gorilla...but no cigar.

No connection to this reality on our screens.

As for your remarks about Hitler, I forgive your total stupidity. He was sinking US merchant marine ships in the summer of 1941. We sent protests, that's all. The US did not go to war until Pearl Harbor (which they also knew about prior) to shore up public support. Roosevelt and his advisors turned down deals to trade Jewish lives for trucks. Some of those lives were my relatives. You are way off base here, Moldy. Why don't you and Janet go have tea and chat? You seem to be on the same hyper wavelength and are both really screaming at the treetops sort of folks. Maybe if you observe each other a bit, you will see yourself in all your glory and realize what changes need to be made in your presentations.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:38:45 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy - I presume you are talking non-dualisticall
Message:
OK. I retract the date of US entry to WWII(mucho apologies for my historical/political inaccuracies). If I hit a raw nerve re:Jews, I'm sorry for that too. I didn't intend to. I just meant that 2 sides cannot always be reconciled.
You can hurl insults at me, if it makes you feel better. I don't really care. I actually was trying to articulate that premie-land will not allow you to think clearly. It will fuck-up your head and your heart. And seeing as you are posting on this site I see no reason why I should keep my mouth shut when you are writing from the confusion of the warped(no relation) Rawat philosophies that you and many of us swallowed for the best of intentions.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:57:43 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: To MW
Message:
OK. I retract the date of US entry to WWII(mucho apologies for my historical/political inaccuracies). If I hit a raw nerve re:Jews, I'm sorry for that too. I didn't intend to. I just meant that 2 sides cannot always be reconciled. You can hurl insults at me, if it makes you feel better. I don't really care. I actually was
trying to articulate that premie-land will not allow you to think clearly. It will fuck-up your head and your heart. And seeing as you are posting on this site I see no reason why I should keep my mouth shut when you are writing from the confusion of the
warped(no relation) Rawat philosophies that you and many of us swallowed for the best of intentions. -MW

Dear MW,

Apology accepted re Jews and WWII.
No, I don't enjoy hurling insults
and always feel less than who I really am
when I do, even if they are good shots.
I am in no-man's land between premies and exes.
I see the good and also the bad side of the thing.
It is not a comfortable seat to be in, but it is
where I am at. Admitting where one is at frees one
to go beyond that point to a higher one, or so the
theory goes. 'The truth shall set you free' is true
I think, on both the cosmic and the mundane everyday level.
I welcome dialog without insults anytime.
I am more interested in why folks left than in trying to
get anyone to come back. That is not my agenda.
And I understand what you mean about groupthink.
This is true in many organizations, and not always the
fault of the leader. But the leader does set the tone
for the masses who blindly follow and don't use their own
faculties. Many people are like that.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 15:52:03 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: To MW
Message:
Sandy wrote

...But the leader does set the tone
for the masses who blindly follow and don't use their own
faculties. Many people are like that.

Know anyone in particular with this problem sandy? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:36:36 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: To gerry
Message:
Yeah, gerry I know thousands of them....all the premies who would not even come here, let alone dialog with the likes of you....all the premies who would not want to know about and not want to empathize with Susan, Abi, the guy whose book company idea got ripped off, the suicides, the displaced ashramers, Pat Halley, all the childen whose lives were upset over their premie parents'
zeal (suffer the children to come to me?), and all the others I did not mention.

Yeah, gerry, I know thousands of them, though not by name. I live with one of them, though. She thinks everyone here is all screwed up and I have been brainwashed. You know not of what you speak. However fucked up I am, I still feel for those here who were hurt by all this herein recorded and documented stuff about Maharaji and those around him and serving him. My standing up for some of you here has cost me dearly too in ways I don't care to detail here.

So I have to bite my tongue and not insult you now. Let me just say that you are very mistaken about me.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 09:44:28 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: what are you looking for sandy? absolution?
Message:
you've got it.
look--you seem to e caught with this idea that gmj it the Way, the One True Master in Our Time Who Was sent to Reveal Us God's Will.
You keep drifting back to the what -if scenario that no matter how fucked up he may be, you're afraid to turn away because you fear you might turn your back on the One ho Was Sent,

So let's go after that belief or fear.
look around you. look into any new age publication. i dont know what you have where you live, but we have the whole life times, put out by the whole life expo, and numerous others. go on the web and look up the trancenet news service and read the site.

sandy do you have any idea how many characters there are all over the globe right now who claim to be God's One True Messenger?
What do you supose would happen if you put em all in a locked room and left them there? Can you imagine the power struggles that would ensue? The fights? the arguments?
If they were all truly sent by God, no such thing would occur. God would manifest and free them all to continue His Holy Work. They can't all be The One True Messenger.

Look --sandy--prem pal singh rawat was born into a family in india that was sired by hans, who learned these meditation techniques from another yogi. we have traced the line of heirophancy here on this forum and this site. if you care, it goes back to kabir and guru gobind singh. but so what?
these 4 techniques were taught to hans and he taught them to his kids. then he died. prem pal was put on the throne at age 8. he only knew what he learned in his family, what he heard. he had a childs understanding of it. it was the religion he was born into and learned at his parents knee.
he went to catholic school and got as far as a 9th grade education. he ridicules books. he scorns education and intellect. he truly does not have much understanding at all in religion or critical thought. all he can do is repeat what he heard his parents say.
his father left him this task. take this to the world. all he can take is the 4 techniques he was shown, and repeat what he saw in his home. he has no real knowledge of how its done in other families, other lands. he's a child, sent to do a mans job.

he gets to the west and sees the money, the comforts. after india, this is living. hes a teenager. he has no father to curb him. he spouts the family religion and ignorant westerners bow down to him. what more could a kid want? he gets anything he asks for. booze. dope. money, cars. slaves. he kicks mom out and marries a busty blonde stewardess who believes he's god. he starts porking her at age 16.
who is there to stop him?

he knows nothing of the world outside of his following. they take him everywhere, get him everthing, insulate him. he doesnt talk to ordianry people. he stays carefully inside his own world, where he is king. and his ignorance is perpetuated.
he is much like an illiterate adult. he can cover for his ignorance a long time if he''s skillful at diverting the attention away from his blind spot. if he can talk convincingly, he need never read or write anything and no one will know he cant.

if you stay within his world, you have no knowledge of what else is out there that goes on, either.

you think this is all there is.

but suppose you do venture out. you break the taboos. you discover how many others there are who also know these techniques. you discover how many others there are who tell their followers they are god's one true messenger.

lets say you have the ultimate experience to awaken you--you die clinically and have a near death experience. you are declared dead and while it happens,you are taken up into this light and meet this great being, you are shown your life and everyone you ever affected. you are shown your purpose for being born and shown that your time is not up yet. you know by presence that this being you speak with is the creator who made you.

and guru maharaj j is nowhere to be seen, mentioned, known, zip. when you awaken back in your body, you recall that oddity and it seems strange to you.

they tell you that they came into your room and found you expired. no one is sure how long you had been gone when they succeeded in reviving you, but the monitors clearly show you were dead for some time.

ut youre alive again and you remember the place you were taken and the great being who came to speak with you.

once you go home, you find out there is a huge body of experiences just like yours to be read about. you meet people it happened to, just like you.

and it doesnt feel at all like premies did, they dont talk like them at all.

they dont talk about anyone sent by god to earth now in a body. they dont speak of trying not to listen to their minds.

they don't turn a deaf ear to anything. they don't shrug away from responsible reaction and emotion.

and they certainly dont 'do participation in synchronized fashion'.

you are quite deeply changed by all this. you know maharaji didnt give you your life and he didnt take it away and he didnt give it back to you. no one up there ever heard of him.

in fact, you try to get him to answer you about it.
he gives you some flippant, disrespectful reply that the whole room giggles about as if they understood.

you know they did't.
they didnt die and see their whole life and get sent back.

but you did.

and you realize once and for all that god is no more in one person than another, and that maharaji is no more than any one else, but in his ignorance, he is a good bit less, given all his claims on the record. you realize that others are better versed, know more, are better teachers, better practicers, better yogis, better scholars and just plain better human beings than he is.

you see it in its perspective. you see this one pathetic guy, doing what his dead daddy told him to do, the only way he can think of to do it, knowing very little and bluffing thru the rest, and 6 billion other human beings who dont need him in order to live their lives the way they wish. and you realize you have god and mj in the wrong order.

maharaji doesnt help you see god.

god helps you see maharaji for what he is.

its absurd to think that by watching one person or not, you might blow your life. you get your life. not his.

your life is the one to watch.
god is with you now, where you are. not up there in that ignorant indian opportunist, bluffing.


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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:33:39 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: This isn't a pissing match, Sandy
Message:
I feel genuinely sorry for you. I do. I really wish you'd snap out of your trance and come alive. But I don't want to harbor any impractical or unrealizeable dreams. You are stuck. I see no hope for you. You'll die believing all this bullshit. Sorry. Really.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 12:55:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You mean beyond being a full functioning person
Message:
Why not just build yourself a cocoon or something? Close you eyes. Play possum. Ostrich? Get some counselling with Valerio where you can both avoid ideas like 'right' or 'wrong'. Stare at a picture of Maharaji and pray for a sign. Pray to him silently. Watch a video.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:38:49 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My mere presence here refutes your remarks
Message:
Doesn't it?
You betcha!
You are a big fish
in a little pond,
your every splash
a tidal wave for
the smaller fish you
overshadow to surf on.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 00:50:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Feeling and Intellect - yes, I've been thinking
Message:
Similar thoughts. I haven't got it quite figured out yet. The ''feelings'' I had in satsang, darshan etc were pretty powerful but they were usually accompanied by my mind being freaked out. The feelings were so strong that it was easy for this burnt out acid head to think I was feeling god. (I had not yet deconstructed psychedelics.) What it has taught me is never to interpret feelings as truth. My mind, my intellect is the only thing that I trust to grasp what truth is.

But just because I no longer subscribe to the BS of ''that feeling of Knollidge'' does not mean that I wish to eschew all feeling. Today I had to pull the car over and just stop and listen to the Tannhauser overture. I cranked the speakers up full blast. The schoolkids at the bus stop thought I was nuts. I must have heard it hundreds of times but the ecstasy expressed in that sweeping music just got to me like it never has before and I am not a Wagner fan (little neaurasthenic anti-semite twerp.)

I definitely value feeling, thrive on it, but it is too tied in with the imagination to be a reliable measurement of truth. Darshan, like LSD, triggered the imagination and I have still to understand fully what imagination is. All I know is that I will not be building any lasting beliefs or values on it in future.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:51:36 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: TAnnhauser Overture
Message:
HI Pat C,

HAve the same tingles up the spine from Wagenr's Tannhauser myself.

HAve you ever listened to the Bruch Violin concerto? Same thing for me.

Regards,

C.G.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:38:44 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Curious George
Subject: Bruch Violin concerto - oh, yes, love it too NT
Message:
k
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 21:35:23 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Bruch Violin serenade and VC2
Message:
Bruch's 2nd violin concerto and violin serenade are also very beautiful. I heard the serenade yesterday on the radio, it reminded me of the violin concerto, when they said it was by Bruch it was no surprise.
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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 04:43:59 (GMT)
From: C.G.
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Gee Thanks! (O.T.)
Message:
Didn't know about them. thanks for the info.

C.G.

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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:16:59 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: G.
Subject: Yes, G, thanks for the tip NT
Message:
j
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 01:45:16 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: PatC/JHB
Subject: Feeling and Intellect - yes, I've been thinking
Message:
I agree with both of you guys. As premies, thought was filtered through the 'party line' as JHB said. So it was tied into a very specific set of behaviors and sensations.

'Feeling' is not superior to intellect, that is a sort of romantic notion. But when someone has no empathy, he or she can be said to have no feeling.

I agree that feeling, when in line with intellect, makes for a less conflicted, and happier human being.

we don't have to act on our feelings every second, nor do we need to take our emotional temperatures every five seconds and freak out if we're not having 'that bliss, that peace, that....' And we don't have to have our every need assuaged at the breast of Maharaji, our once imaginary friend, every single second. Sometimes learning a little intellectual toughness is not such a bad thing.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:01:04 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: taking one's emotional temperature obsessively
Message:
Exactly, Helen. ''Am I happy?'' ''Are we there yet, mom?'' Childish nonsense.

I just wanted to add that, even when I get a hunch, I always think about it before acting on it. As i've gotten older I don't have to analyze my hunches so much but hunches are thoughts -almost like shortcuts or what are called ''macros'' in word-processing programs, conglomerations of previously learned judgments. I don't trust ESP stuff.

Sometimes I've regretted not trusting my first impressions but I would rather analyze intuition than give into prejudices.

Also I am never satisfied until I have thunk things through no matter how long it takes. Feelings do not convince me as much as finally understanding something with my mind, grasping all the ins and outs of it and connecting all the dots.

In my tripping days I had a couple of less than blissful trips and was told by a go-with-the-flow type that it was because I was trying to understand it with my mind. He became a heroine addict for 20 years though. Flowed too much I guess. There's a balance.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 21:31:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: taking one's emotional temperature obsessively
Message:
Yeah. I've had people tell me I think too much. But after 20 years of not thinking (in my youth) I like leading with my brain now. Even on my wedding night I wondered what the heck dumb thing I'd gone and done now. We only knew one another for 6 months. (Fortunately I made a good choice for once and we have been married now for 16 years).

Very typical of me in my youth to do very impulsive and at times self-destructive things. So that is why I am very careful now. I see how my former ways of rushing headlong into things hurt other people and hurt me. So I would rather take the time to think things through than cause pain, or make a decision I will regret.

I agree that sometimes hunches are macro thoughts skipping the thinking it through stage. First impressions say a lot and are usually right for me, yet at times I can be so competely off base. sometimes hunches are just our fears.

good talking to you, gotta run

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:08:51 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I've been thinking
Message:
Interesting thoughts! If we really knew what intellect and emotion were, of course, we wouldn't be having this conversation, but we don't.

Theories abound. And abound again, in abundance. But...so?

I am reminded of my brother, a mathematician, who stutters. How many theories there are about stuttering! And why one doesn't stutter while singing, for example.

Yet he still stutters (less than when he was young, especially after becoming a father and husband). Theorizing is fun...but not always useful, especially in the realm of the mind. In the realm of the spirit, theorizing becomes especially risible. (OK, I like those ten-dollar words, even when they obfucate rather than clarify. Risible: laughable.)

I like this comment of Helen's: 'we don't have to act on our feelings every second, nor do we need to take
our emotional temperatures every five seconds and freak out if we're not
having 'that bliss, that peace, that....'

Despite our opinions about our emotions, they are definitely not worth monitoring constantly, ESPECIALLY as an indicator of our spiritual growth. That monitoring was one of the most poisonous aspects of the cult experience. Lighten up, for God's sake. We all have up and down moments. We're humans. If spirituality is good and real, certainly it takes human nature into account!

This statement of Pat C's I'd take issue with, especially under the 'never say never' dictum:

'What it has taught me is never
to interpret feelings as truth. My mind, my intellect is the only thing that I
trust to grasp what truth is.'

Many revelations I've had have had nothing to do with the intellect. Revelations of intellectual discovery are prized highly in my book, but I've had many experiences in which an intuitive sense of ultimate order (words fail me here...order sounds too facist for what I'm trying to express)has nothing at all to do with the intellect.

However, neither was it at its core an emotional experience.

If such an experience was later judged to be suspect by the intellect, great. I'm not excluding the intellect as a tool in one's intellectual growth.

Hypothalamus, neocortex, limbic system, God, reason, and lust.

So fucking complicated.

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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:55:33 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: wisdom
Message:
It is complicated! Hey, thanks for the vocab word: risable. I never heard the word before. Sounds like a drunk person trying to say 'visable.'

One thing I think we'd all agree on is that we have gained some WISDOM from this whole ordeal. WISDOM that comes from pain, reflection, wanting to do the right thing. One thing I like about having a few grey hairs, is having the bit of wisdom to be able to laugh at myself and at life, not take it all so seriously. I've walked down a few roads I don't wish to walk down again, but there are many more roads to come, good and bad, and I hope I can still have some 'feeling' left in me old heart.

Cheers

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:43:24 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Gregg - intuition
Message:
I wanted to say that I trust my intuition and instincts but backed off from using those words because I feel that they are fuzzy words which actually probably describe ''thought'' (even if the thoughts are subliminal and sensational.) Yes, this is deep water.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:24:23 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat- on fuzzy words for intuition and thoughts
Message:
Agree with wot you are saying on this thread.- Bit about getting older and therefore finding you can trust your 'instincts' or 'intuition' more due to accumulated info in your brain.
It's wierd - that is, using these inadequate labels like 'feelings', 'thoughts', 'intuitions' for a complex processing device like a human being. My latest thoughts (or feelsngs or intuitions) are that there is no actual separation betwwen these 'things'. As my philosopher friend Frank is fond of saying often - 'thoughts ARE feelings'. Nevertheless....they seem to be separate operations of the brain.
God - I shall start rambling in a minute - it's a bit like trying to look the back of yer head!
Moldy Warp who needs a mirror urgently.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:46:26 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Yes, Moldy, perfectly good words but Psi factor
Message:
makes me reluctant to use them. Too many people use words like instinct, hunch, intuition etc as if they were functions divorced from thought and some sort of ESP thing.

When I moved from S Africa to England I did not have as hard a time as when I moved to the USA. The unspoken cultural cues that I used to understand people were similar in SA and UK but not in USA. Not only is the language used differently but the class structure is different. The middle class in SA and UK is more genteel than here. I made quite a few errors of judgement about people here before figuring out that the middle class here is a wealthy working class and not as refined as what I had come to understand in SA and UK.

Yes those words are shortcuts for complicated mental processes.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 00:39:21 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: rejoinder to sandy on this aalso
Message:
Yeah, I know you are being real literal here and being real accurate about what he said and all that, but you sure are being mental about it,
no heart whatsoever.
All head, little to no heart, maybe that is your problem.
You thought this and you thought that.
What did you feel?
Do you even know?
Were you also listening when he talked about feeling?
Enjoy it all, but remember your life and the giver of it first and foremost,

you idiot.
[ excuse me. 'you idiot'? this is speaking from the heart?]
Open your ears and
take out the wax of hard heartedness and judgement,
maybe it will sound different.
First of all, i don't think maharaji has a heart. he has a pump that moves his blood, but i don't think he has a heart, not like you mean. if he had a heart, if he had one iota of honor for acting from the heart, we wouldnt have this tremendous storehouse of grievances against him. if he lived by the heart, he would never found his marriage in trouble. he would neer take a mistress. he would never fuck premie girls who were not his wife and then ditch them.
he would never have ridiculed the denver man whose wife had died, or driven him to suicide, with his cruel, humiliating remarks, in front of the whole festival.
if he came from heart, he would never have insulted the brother in 1987, who stood up in Palm Springs Knowledge review, and told him that he was having more and more trouble meditating since he had contracted AIDS. Nor would he have denied to his face the following year having called him a demon at the year previous, when the man's AIDS had advanced to such a condition of pain that he couldnt meditate anymore.
if he lived by the heart, this Jagdeo saga would not be playing out over 30 years.
feeling? i think the only feelings maharaj knows are smartass flippancy, anger, acquisitiveness, avarice, and fear.
oh, and denial.
i think what he experiences as love is actually smug self satisfaction and ownership.
what does he love?
things. watches, jets, cars, gadgets, cognac, meat, money.
insensate objects, which neither feel, nor return his sentiments for them.
people?
i seriously doubt he can feel love for people. He doesnt greet the premies with recognition or joy when he comes out to speak. All business. Chop chop.
he gets up on the stage and he sucks up all that narcissistic attention for every little thing he does ans says-but love back?
no.
he speaks of premies with derision. with insult. everyone is fodder for his slams. have you ever heard him praise anyone with genuine equal regard on a par with himself?
he doesnt feel love towards sentient things that can feel.
I've watched him in Darshan lines. He's bored. He stares straight ahead. He whiles away the time. He doesnt smile and greet familiar faces. He doesn't give. He just takes it. Looks at his watch, hustles thru like a machine. Wants it over with. Its not an encounter characterized by love. Utterly impersonal.
A $2 dollar whore fakes love with a long line of customers better than he does! They're both getting money for putting themselves there, but he just sits there, unresponsive, unreactive, glancing at his watch.
so dont give us this 'come from your heart, come from the feeling' chorus.
if you made love to your spouse and they sat there as unresponsive as he does, you would know something was terribly wrong with your supposed 'love' relationship. there'd be feeling from your side, but not coming back from the other side. you'd be making the gestures of love from your side, but they wouldn't be making any back.
that's not love. they aren't feeling any love towards you. and they aren't demonstrating love towards you.

he doesnt love marolyn. if he did, he wouldnt be fucking monica.
he doesnt love monica. if he did, he wouldnt do this to her.
he doesnt love his kids. if he did, he wouldnt pull premlata out of USC and forbid her to attend college as she wants to.

he doesnt love, sandy. he has this bottomless appetite and he's insatiable. if he had love, he could be satisfied with having nothing. he would show care and compassion. he would greet us as the familiar friends he has had with him for 30 years.
he would speak to us and of us, with love, not derision, ridicule and humiliation.
in the tibetan book of the dead, they speak of one of the hells as the realm of the hungry ghosts--gross, howling, angry, frustrated, missapportioned entities with huge bellies and pinprick mouths, who can never get enough, who are condemned for eternity to want and crave and yearn and hunger and never be able to fill themselves.

we are coming from our feelings, sandy. and our feelings say that this is all wrong.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:32:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: back to janet
Message:
janet,

I want to respond to you, so my words will be asterisked inbetween yours:

First of all, i don't think maharaji has a heart. he has a pump that moves his blood, but i don't think he has a heart, not like you mean. if he had a heart, if he had one iota of honor for acting from the heart, we wouldnt have this tremendous storehouse of grievances against him.

*Shit happening is not proof that he has no heart. Are you saying that whatever love you felt from him in the past was a trick? You never felt anything good and true from him?

if he lived by the heart, he would never found his marriage in trouble.

*Whoa, sister! I can speak from direct experience that someone can be very loving and be living from the heart and still find their marriage in trouble.

he would neer take a mistress.

*That seems to be a cultural thing, accepted in some places as normal and considered a big no-no in others.

he would never fuck premie girls who were not his wife and then ditch them.

*Personally, I happened to agree with you on this one, but going back to cultural traditions, there is a history of gopis.

he would never have ridiculed the denver man whose wife had died, or driven him to suicide, with his cruel, humiliating remarks, in front of the whole festival.

*I am not up on that event. Please refer me to it in archives or fill me in.

if he came from heart, he would never have insulted the brother in 1987, who stood up in Palm Springs Knowledge review, and told him that he was having more and more trouble meditating since he had contracted AIDS. Nor would he have denied to his face the following year having called him a demon at the year previous, when the man's AIDS had advanced to such a condition of pain that he couldnt meditate anymore.

*I want to know more about this. My wife and I both had brothers who died of AIDS. Please refer me to it or fill me in.

if he lived by the heart, this Jagdeo saga would not be playing out over 30 years.

*I, too, would have very much liked to see this matter dealt with on a more personal and sincere level, ministering to the feelings of the children and their parents, with some sort of remark to the premies at large about it, just to give us a heads up. I think that he took bad advice and/or did not know the pervasiveness of the problem. Don't kill me for that opinion, just tell me why you think I'm wrong.

feeling? i think the only feelings maharaj knows are smartass flippancy, anger, acquisitiveness, avarice, and fear. oh, and denial.

*You never felt anything else? And if you did, was it real at the time, or do you think it was just a trick to get over on you?

i think what he experiences as love is actually smug self satisfaction and ownership. what does he love? things. watches, jets, cars, gadgets, cognac, meat, money insensate objects, which neither feel, nor return his sentiments for them.

*I did not appreciate that remark he made when he got a fancy car and he said something like 'you'll never have this' to the premies. I understand what you mean...it ain't easy being rich, having to have another million to protect the first million, etc.
But that is somewhat true, you know.

people? i seriously doubt he can feel love for people.

*I heard that he offered asylum to some South American premies whose country was persecuting them. I heard he offered them to stay at Amaroo to escape political punishment. That sort of stuff doesn't happen often, and I think he saves his favors like this for really heavy problems, not wanting to become a homeless shelter or a food bank.

He doesnt greet the premies with recognition or joy when he comes out to speak. All business. Chop chop. he gets up on the stage and he sucks up all that narcissistic attention for every little thing he does ans says-but love back? no. he speaks of premies with derision. with insult. everyone is fodder for his slams.

*I cannot disagree with you about his style. But there is a quote from...excuse me, the Bible. It says 'the Lord chastens who he loves', and I don't mean here that Maharaji is the Lord. But the chastening can come through anyone who care about us, who has our best interests at heart. I thnk he's harder on Americans than most, probably because we have more materialism and media crap to cut through than most other places. That was my experience when I listened regularly.

have you ever heard him praise anyone with genuine equal regard on a par with himself?

*Yes, his father. He put his father way above himself and I think he really sees his work as fulfilling his father's dying wish to spread Knowledge to the world at large.

he doesnt feel love towards sentient things that can feel.

*That is your speculation. He just doesn't show it the way you think he should.

I've watched him in Darshan lines. He's bored. He stares straight ahead. He whiles away the time. He doesnt smile and greet familiar faces. He doesn't give. He just takes it. Looks at his watch, hustles thru like a machine. Wants it over with. Its not an encounter characterized by love. Utterly impersonal.

*This is totally your personal read of it, nothing more.

A $2 dollar whore fakes love with a long line of customers better than he does! They're both getting money for putting themselves there, but he just sits there, unresponsive, unreactive, glancing at his watch.

*$2.00 whore? What country are you in?

so dont give us this 'come from your heart, come from the feeling' chorus. if you made love to your spouse and they sat there as unresponsive as he does, you would know something was terribly wrong with your supposed 'love' relationship. there'd be feeling from your side, but not coming back from the other side. you'd be making the gestures of love from your side, but they wouldn't be making any back. that's not love. they aren't feeling any love towards you. and they aren't demonstrating love towards you.

*Janet, are you now or have you ever been married? Forgive me if I am not up0 on your status from previous posts, but I don't check this stie every single day. There are many reasons why love does not flow between people and not all of them are as deep or root caused as you suggest. Some are even physiological, having nothing to do with emotions or anything else.

he doesnt love marolyn. if he did, he wouldnt be fucking monica.
he doesnt love monica. if he did, he wouldnt do this to her.

*No, it's not a perfect world. And it's not how I would live personally. But I am not the judge and neither are you as to whether he loves those people or not. That is between him and them, private. His life should not be in a fishbowl. He is not an elected politician and is entitled to work out his shit like the rest of us, in private. He has said over and over that he is not perfect, the Knowledge is. Yet you demand human perfection from him anyway, even after he has said it doesn't exist. Yeah, I know there was alot of confusion about east-west and what was meant at certain times, superior power in person and all that...that is where common sense comes into play if you have it. Superior power=Knowledge=perfect....in person=human=fallable.
This is not new information. You have taken things he has said and built an argument, but you have left out other things he has said which don't support your position.

he doesnt love his kids. if he did, he wouldnt pull premlata out of USC and forbid her to attend college as she wants to.

*There has got to be more to this story about Premlata. Care to fill me in?

he doesnt love, sandy. he has this bottomless appetite and he's insatiable. if he had love, he could be satisfied with having nothing. he would show care and compassion. he would greet us as the familiar friends he has had with him for 30 years. he would speak to us and of us, with love, not derision, ridicule and humiliation.

*Someone with love can have nothing, everything or any increment between the extremes. It won't affect them either way. I can relate to you about where are the warm friendly greetings after 30 years? That is just a question of style. Some people are just not real chummy, no matter how long you know them or how much love there is between. That in itself is no indication of anything deeper. I can also relate to the derision, ridicule and humiliation and not liking it, but trying to go beyond my ego and listen for what is in there for me underneath the rough surface.
Sometimes it has been very educational after I got over the hard words.

in the tibetan book of the dead, they speak of one of the hells as the realm of the hungry ghosts--gross, howling, angry, frustrated, missapportioned entities with huge bellies and pinprick mouths, who can never get enough, who are condemned for eternity to want and crave and yearn and hunger and never be able to fill themselves.

*Yeah, I know. I have lived with hungry ghosts. No fun at all.

we are coming from our feelings, sandy. and our feelings say that this is all wrong.

*And I am coming from my feelings too, janet, and my feelings say some of this is wrong but there is something real and true too.
Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:28:22 (GMT)
From: Mercedes
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Right on Janet...Thank you! N/T
Message:
uu
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:15:42 (GMT)
From: JANET
Email: None
To: SANFORD H PASS
Subject: MODERN TRANSLATION OF YOUR VIEW
Message:
'Some mahatmas had sex.
Omygod.
This has never happened before in the history of the world.
What are we gonna do?

Sandy's answer:
If all else was well with you and Maharaji, this would not have rocked your boat.

Situation being what it is,
your sarcasm and cynicism over this
has a boat to barnacle onto.'
-------
REFRAME#1
-------

Some mahatma had sex WITH MY CHILD.
Omygod.
This has never happened before in the history of the world.
What are we gonna do?

If all else was well with you and YOUR DRUG, this would not have rocked your boat.
Situation being what it is,
(THAT YOU'RE SOBER)
your MORALS and RAGE over this
has a boat to barnacle onto.
--------
REFRAME II
--------
Some GANGBANGERS had sex WITH MY 9 YEAR OLD CHILD.
SO WHAT.
This has happened before in the history of the NEIGHBORHOOD.
What are we gonna do?
NOT GONNA DO NOTHIN. I GOT RIGHT WITH MA WHITE, JUST HIT UP, AN
I'M ON THE NOD, MAN
DON'T BOTHER ME. GO AWAY
If all else is well with you and YOUR HEROIN, this DON'T rock your boat.

Situation being what it is,
I'M TOO BLOWN AWAY TO CARE, MAN
so your STRESSIN and TRIPPIN over this
DON'T HAVE MY boat to barnacle onto.

---------
AND JUST TO CORRECT YOUR FUCKED UP METAPHOR, SANDY--

A BARNACLE CAN ONLY GROW ON A BOAT THAT IS STILL AND NOT MOVNG

A BOAT THAT IS ROCKING IS ACTIVE AND NOT A HOSPITABLE PLACE FOR BARNACLES TO SETTLE AND FEED ON

SO SEEING AS HOW YOURE THE ONE WHO ADVOCATES NOT ROCKING THE BOAT AND SITTING INERT, TIED TO THE SAME SPOT DAY AFTER DAY, THE BARNACLES ARE SETTLING AND FEEDING ON YOU, DEAR. LEAVE EM THERE LONG ENOUGH AND YOUR HULL IS GONNA ROT THROUGH AND YOUR SHP SINK.

ON THE OTHER HAND , BY SHARP CONTRAST,OUR BOATS, WHICH ARE INDEED ROCKING, ARE GETTING RID OF MORE ENCRUSTED, PARASITIC FILTH OF THE PAST EVERY NEW DAY,WHICH FASTENED ONTO US AND FED ON US WHILE WE SAT IDLE AND HELPLESS.

YOU'RE NEVER GONNA GET ANYWHERE, TIED TO THE DOCK.
SO UNTIE THE ROPE AND SET A SAIL, SMELL THE WIND AND KNOW WHICH WAY IT'S BLOWING.
AND IF THERE'S NO WIND, ROW

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:44:01 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JANET
Subject: Twist and shout
Message:
You twisted my words and then shouted about it.
The mahatma I was referring to was Charanand,
not Jagdeo.
You built you whole thing around that.
Your whole thing was full of sound and fury,
signifying nothing.
For you to imply that I am cool with child molestation
Is very twisted and inaccurate.
I forgive you.

Sandy

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 09:53:24 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Twist and shouno sandy, i did it for this:
Message:
i knew full well which mahatma you were answering about.

what i am zeroeing in on, is your--and most premie's attitude(s), a deadly irresponsibility, that blankets over your innate moral and responsible outrage when you hear of the cases we keep bringing to light here at EPO.

This unfeeling ethos, that the whole rest of the world can go to hell, as long as you've got your 'thing' right with Maharaji, is abominable.

Get this straight Sandy:

this 'thing' you have with maharaji, is all one way.
He doesnt have a 'thing' back with you. He truly doesnt care what happens to you, and he certainly doesn't ever think about whether he's got his relationship with you, straight.

meanwhile, there are countless people all around you in your life with whom you DO have a 'thing', and it very MUCH matters to them whether that 'thing' is straight and all right.

Your wife, for example. How is your 'thing' with her?

Or your kids. How is your 'thing' with them?

Your parents?
Your neighbors?

How about your relationship with yourself???
Have you gotten down with yourself lately and checked in and found out if you're taking care of your OWN needs?

And, no, I don;t mean 'that Place. I mean things like, what have you dont with your life? Are you honoring your own emotions? Your own brain? Your own sense of right and wrong?

I used the magnification of the reframes to show you, by increasing degrees, how this ducking under a blnaket, or rolling your eyes back into your head or prattling these senseless premie statements is no more real , no more responsive, no more useful, than a junkie in the ghetto, nodding after shooting up, not wanting to be bothered by the bad news that his/her kid just got gang raped, in the burned out building next door, on the way home from school--because all the junkie wants is to find a place they can retreat to, out of the pain and the misery and the hardship, and the white powder takes them there.
The same way meditation and knowledge takes the premie there.

It boils down to (cooks down to??)
'Hey man-- I got mine. I don't care whether you get yours. Leave me alone.I'm high and that's all that matters'.

Now: you tell me what you use Knowledge for.
And tell me what its no good for.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 10:06:40 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JANET
Subject: Janet, this is out of line.
Message:
Hi Janet,

When I first started to post on the forum, and the Jagdeo incidents started to come to light, Sandy was a premie who used to come here and give us satsang.

I discussed Jagdeo with him, and his attitude, for a premie, was quite open and enlightened. He wrote a letter to Maharaji asking him for an explanation. He kept me in touch with the correspondance and sent me copies of it, which at his request, I didn't publish.

He has always been supportive and sympathetic to the case against Jagdeo, and for this, he has earned my respect. His attitude on the matter has been constant, and at the time, it was much less acceptable for a premie to even aknowledge Jagdeo may have done wrong. Our campaign was portrayed then as 'A way of getting at Maharaji'. I've had lots of communication with him off the forum at different times, and he comes across as a sincere and caring person. Sure he's struggling with his ties to the cult, but aren't we all. And it would be stupid to think we were all at the same point of realisation about what we were involved in.

So, JANET in Sandy's defence, I have to say your comments miss the mark by miles. He's on our side on this one. I think you owe him an apology.

Anth (chairman of the 'Free shp' campaign).

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:46:04 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, you have my OK to publish the EV letters
Message:
Anth,

Go for it.
And thank you.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:37:16 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: JANET
Subject: I strongly disagree
Message:
Who are you, Janet, to tell someone else what to think or do with their lives? I am strongly against this telling people what they should think about Maharaji. People can decide for themselves what they think about Maharaji and his trip and if the full facts are presented to them, they can make their own informed judgements and decisions.

All people here were once premies. Therefore, I believe it is hypocritical for any of us to try to badger someone into changing their views about Maharaji and knowledge. Live and let live, is my way of thinking. We may not agree with another's viewpoint but we have no right to try to make them change. We have no right to change other people or meddle with their heads.

David Simpkiss

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:49:15 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I strongly disagree
Message:
inherent in the statement sandy put forth. ' if all is right with you and maharaji, nothing rocks your boat'

this is comparable to blotting out all unpleasantness with an addiction.

hence the escalating degrees of magnification.

does it matter whether the parents are preoccupied with their relationship with maharaji, or with getting drunk, or with shooting up? the neglect and vulnerability crreated for the children is the same. the mechanism for negating the rest of existence and trying for 'that feeling' that makes it all ok is the same.

and all three aim for loss of consciousness of the normal world.

a boat going nowhere. with parasites growing on it.
and rotting

by contrast, the sober person does feel. is active. is not escaping responsibility or involvement anymore. the boat is moving forward again.
increasing they recognize the parasites and remove them, clean out the rot and freshen the craft.

sandy was trying to get us all to ignore everything but 'our relationship with maharaji', saying that what others do ( like mahatmas fucking sisters in the ashram or little kids) should not disturb us.

i heard that for nearly three decades of insidious bs dave. i see it for what it is, now.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:07:51 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Standard premie lines
Message:
Well I agree with that but someone like Sanford Pass isn't going to listen to you shouting at him with block capital letters and telling him what he should be thinking.

Standard old premie lines are always rolled out here. We used to say them ourselves. They've been instilled into premies over years and it is hardly surprising that premies repeat them now and again. They mean very little, in reality, of course and when push comes to shove, all the premie platitudes in the world don't help anyone and are mere theory.

Sanford Pass meant that he wasn't worried about the mahatmas having sexual relationships and he gave his reason. I don't think he was talking about paedophelia, which is something else.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:18:23 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: In this case, your observations are astute with
Message:
regard to mahatmas having consentual sex with adults versus pedophilia, and how I feel about such activity.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:47:21 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: i was magnifying the iresponsibility and escapism
Message:
inherent in the statement sandy put forth. ' if all is right with you and maharaji, nothing rocks your boat'

this is comparable to blotting out all unpleasantness with an addiction.

hence the escalating degrees of magnification.

does it matter whether the parents are preoccupied with their relationship with maharaji, or with detting drunk, or with shooting up? the neglect and vulnerability of the children is the same. the mechanism for negating the rest of existence and trying for 'that feeling' that makes it all ok is the same.

and all three aim for loss of consciousness of the normal world.

a boat going nowhere. with parasites growing on it.
and rotting

by contrast, the sober person does feel. is active. is not escaping responsibility or involvement anymore. the boat is moving forward again.
increasing they recognize the parasites and remove them, clean out the rot and freshen the craft.

sandy was trying to get us all to ignore everything but 'our relationship with maharaji', saying that what others do ( like mahatmas fucking sisters in the ashram or little kids) should not disturb us.

i heard that for nearly three decades of insidious bs dave. i see it for what it is, now.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 12:50:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: You mean 'distorting'
Message:
Janet,

To be fair, Sandy's bullshit comment about 'some mahatmas having sex' was all about consensual sex, that's obvious. So Anth's right. This is a blatant distortion and misconstruction on your part. Sandy's comments were stupid enough for what they really said. You don't have to blow them out of proportion like this.

Maybe it's time for a walk or something? A little fresh air? You do get a little hyper at times.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:47:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Where do you get this 'rights' thing, Dave?
Message:
Who said we 'have no right' to change people, persuade them of this or that or, as you put it, 'meddle with their heads'? I think we have that right in all sorts of ways, all sorts of situations. Indeed, one might argue that we don't 'have the right' to NOT do that in some instances.

I also disagree that, just because we were once premies ourselves, it's somehow hypocritical for us to even try to 'badger' someone into changing their views. Where do you get your 'therefore' in that argument, Dave?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:26:31 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The Magna Carta
Message:
Do you really think that badgering and ridiculing someone makes them change their mind? In my opinion it does the opposite and entrenches them deeper into their standpoint. We all have an ego and don't like to be told what to do by other people.

But I think ego is good and necessary and it does no good to try to smash someone's ego. It only alienates them. Persuasion is fine but Janet's badgering and ridicule of Sandford's views will achieve nothing but alienation and annoyance. I know it would me and I'd feel she had no right to do so.

Imagine if Janet was ridiculing you personally when you were a premie. Would you take kindly to it?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:50:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Nice side-step, Dave
Message:
How about answering the question?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:29:14 (GMT)
From: Barnacle bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: go easy on the tards Janet, just laugh.....nt
Message:
cvhj
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:19:24 (GMT)
From: JANET
Email: None
To: JANET
Subject: THE ABOVE IS FOR YOU, SANFORD H PASS
Message:
READ IT AND RECKON
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:47:34 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: JANET
Subject: Give the guy a break Janet ......
Message:
...he's only trying to work it out , & in public to boot .

Since I discovered this site & became an ex-premie as a result , which was last August , there have been numerous Rawat apologists posting .

Danny : fuck you pal ... gonzo .

The various dogs , weasels , turners & others .

More recently :

Erika & family , go on , retire , enjoy & forget about it .

Peter went off in a huff , fomf was a flash in the pan .


Leaving Sandy stuck between a rock & a hard place .

Come on EV , time to wheel out the pezze novante in defence of il maestro . Che cazza voi Valerio , culo , stronzo .

That goes for you too G . Whittaker , put up your dukes in defence of the Lord of The Universe .

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 08:54:19 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: i am, bin.i'm clarifying his problem for him
Message:
if he realizes the connection, he will know what to do to get out of the stagnant backwater he finds himself stuck in. this is his break.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 13:50:53 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Yes, but...
Message:
Janet, I really liked your post a few weeks ago about the power of communicating in 'I' statements. Yet it feels to me here as though you think you are Sanford's appointed fixer. I agree with Dave and co. that it may not be the most skillful way to make a point.

love Katie Darling

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:19:01 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: I am the very model...
Message:
No mystic nor ascetic, I, no pious, poor or lowly man
Radh'soami goes Armani in this well-fed, roly-poly man
And if my minions should default, I've millions to console me, man
I am the very model of the modern-mannered holy man...

As phoney as a pharaoh, let me don my silly hat fer you
More garlanded than Judy I will bare my belly fat fer you
Behold my tacky trinket stall piled high with new age tat fer you
I am the very model of a modern perfect satguru...

Much as I dig your gratitude I think I'd rather have the car
I used to like a Lear jet but the Gulfstream gets me twice as far
Attendants stand at every door to shine my waning charismar
I am one less-than-altruistic, atavistic avatar...

Ex-travellers may vilify in ridicule and parody
Yea - watch me stomp those websites out of all who would disparage me
This hamster's wheel keeps rolling while there's Ivette to encourage me
I am one very modern, money-minded mistra maragee...

So one more marble mansion please, with space to build a car lot in
A yacht wot's got the whole damn lot (a place to please a harlot in?)
And should donations start to wane I'll rope them in and snarl at 'em
I am the very model of a modern champagne charlatan...

They think that I'm omnipotent - ha-ha! - if only that were true
I wouldn't need these fawning gumps who skunk the halls of Malibu
Who want to buss my lotus ass (I really must do that for you?!!)
So wearisome the burden of the would-be modern satguru...

For piety, sobriety - they ain't not wot they used to be
A humble Himalyan cave quite frankly is no use to me
Just recognise I'm realised, just give it time - you too could be
I am the very model of a lifestyle you will surely see....

The scriptures say: 'just seek ye first...' the rest will surely come to you
Stop whingeing and complaining 'bout the the wicked things I've done to you
I always said 'Just walk away, if Knowledge ain't no fun for you...'
I never warned of rotting veg nor held a loaded gun to you.
(er.. did I???)

No mystic nor ascetic, I, no pious, poor or lowly man
Radswami goes Armani in this well-fed, roly-poly man
And if my minions should default, I've millions to console me, man
I am the very model of the modern-mannered holy man...

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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 18:07:49 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Thank you everyone - I'm filling up...
Message:
...and I'd like to thank my parents for having me and everyone I have ever met in my whole life (cue tears and affected modest blush...)

Hmm, but it WAS pretty good, wasn't it?

But to satisfy fans and further gratify my own, albeit amoeba-sized, ego there will be a comprehensive, all-singing, all-dancing Moldy, Loaf and Larkin webpage coming soon. Stay tuned...

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 02:03:09 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Thank you everyone - I'm filling up...
Message:
I'd like to thank your parents for having you too.
Moldy Warp who's tuning up her voice ready.
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 15:25:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: BRAVO! Larkin! Sensational! n/t
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:53:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Gilbert and Sullivan were perfect masters too
Message:
Excellente!

You see 'Topsy Turvy' by the way? That was good too. No, this song rocks. 'less-than-altruistic atavistic avatar' indeed.

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Date: Sun, Apr 22, 2001 at 01:24:46 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Gilbert and Sullivan - you surprised me, Jim
Message:
Topsy Turvy was an interesting movie eventhough I'm not a big Gilbert and Sullivan fan.

Debussy said: ''Bach is the God of music and a prayer should be offered to him by all composers before they sit down to write music.''

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 10:14:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Give this poet a Nobel prize.
Message:
That's great Larkin'.

I hope these brilliant satirical songs are being preserved for posterity. What about doing a whole musical? 'The Mad Guru from Amaroo,' 'Daft Devotees from Dehra Dun', the mind boggles.

Anth a Pirate from Zentrance.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:28:28 (GMT)
From: JANET
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: IT SPARKLES! it delights! it captures! yes!
Message:
love the alliteration-!
'..atavistic avatar'
...modern champagne charlatan'
'..would-be modern satguru'
'...modern mannered holy man'

someday we must make a broadway play out of all this.
we'll kick anderew lloyd webber off the charts.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:37:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: A lark in the afternoon
Message:
good one! Is there a website where you keep this stuff, or where someone keeps this stuff. We should be able to go there and quaff a cupa cheery words now and then.

--f

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:11:43 (GMT)
From: Curious George
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: A Lark in the Clear Air (Irish Folk Song)
Message:
An my soul soars enchanted!

C.G.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:34:31 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: I am the very model of a modern Major-general
Message:
...er, I mean, Flight Captain/Revivalist Preacher/Watchmaker/Investor/Snake-oil Salesman.

Thank you, Bard, for that treat.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:27:38 (GMT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: I laughed, I cried.... A triumph!
Message:
More garlanded than Judy I will bare my belly fat fer you

That line alone makes this song priceless!

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:38:28 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: It's all brilliant but these lines:-
Message:
So one more marble mansion please, with space to build a car lot in
A yacht wot's got the whole damn lot (a place to please a harlot in?)

really made me chuckle!

Brilliant Larkin. You're wasted in Academia (or maybe not:-))

When are you visiting Latvia?

John.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:03:03 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: to reiterate:justice re: jagdeo
Message:
i brought this up from below, as it seem it isnt reaching everyone.
as far as accomplishing justice with jagdeo and protecting children for good, the only avenue that will work, is action by the victims, to law enforcement. not by begging Maharaji, not by looking to Elan Vital.

here is why:

rawat can do no more than fire jagdeo. that won;t take jagdeo out of circulation from having access to real live children. EV can fire jagdeo. same result. the only action that has teeth, with regards to getting jagdeo out of circulation, so that no more children can be subject to his sexual aberrations, is for abi and susan, and any other victims he assaulted to report his crimes to law enforcement, and to be willing to go through the justice system, to apprehend him, arrest him, charge him, jail him, see that he does not bail out, take him to trial, testify against him, prove the case to get him convicted, and see him imprisoned and cataloged into the data base of known sex offenders, a la Megan's Law in California.
To name rawat in the trial as a codefendent is an option, although he is not the sex offender of abi and susan. that part of the action may be thrown out.
there can be a criminal trial against jagdeo and a civil trial against jagdeo and rawat. two separate actions in two separate arenas, with different standards of proof and culpability. Rawat would likely have to stand for the civil trial. As CEO and de facto leader of EV and all his mahatmas and followers, he would remain responsible and culpable for jagdeo's acts, especially since we have our own evidence here to present from the victims, the community and the IHQ office that Rawat and Judy Osborne and Randy Prouty and Chanrnanand all were told and relayed messages and got back to the victims years ago to the effect that maharaji knew and was relieved that it was not a new incident, and assigned watchers to shadow and monitor jagdeo as supposed safeguard to any new episodes.
Looking to maharaji and elan vital to bring justice is not possible. they have no grounds on which to prosecute. they can do no more than a hospital or a medical board can to prevent a bad doctor from practicing. in reality what happens is that such a hspital privately censures the offender, then writes a glowing letter of recommendation to another place and send the guy down the road, glad to be rid of him in their area or even their state. and the guy goes on to perpetrate the same crimes on others in the new place.
i followed up on the discusion to get in touch with interpol, after the subject surfaced in a thread here the other day. the trail has to begin with reporting jagdeo to law enforcement somewhere, in order for him to be entered into the system. the more countries he is reported in, the more it becomes a motter for interpol to pursue. law enforcement is the only aencyn the world that has the power to take jagdeo into locked longterm penitentiary custody in order to keep him from children ever again.
maharaji doesnt have that power. elan vital doesnt have that power.
if we sit around wringing our hands and passively hoping and wishing and waiting, nothing substantial will ever happen to get him away from children.
Short of natural death or a sniper, the agent to engage with to ensure his removal from society is law enforcement. and only the victim(s) have the right to bring such action.
As someone in the legal system explained to me, if the one who was wronged does not bring a complaint, and the complaint does not get brought in front of the law, the judge cannot rule on it. The system can only act on what you bring before it. That means both the police and the court. It begins with the one who was wronged, reporting, making a complaint, and a demand for justice to be done, and making it to those who have the societal power by law to do it. The complainant also has to committ to staying in cooperation to the end of the pursuit. if the complainant drops it/out, the pursuit dies.
maharaji doesnt have that power or that right. neither does elan vital.
so hoping they will 'deal with it', somehow, is a mistake in hope and attention, and a valuable waste of time, during which jagdeo can touch all the children he wishes, wherever he goes.
here's a horrible scenario to ponder:
EV fires jagdeo. he has communities all over the world where he has been, and is still clamored for, as the venerated mahatma. he opts to go to them. he molests children there.
so the only thing left to do is to entrap him with a willing child and a sting, to catch him in the act and bust him red handed.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:54:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: justice- a place to start
Message:
Hi Janet,

There are a few things that Captain Rawat could do as regards Jagdeo. To kick off, he could inform Torpoint Police Station of his whereabouts.

The focus and purpose of any action has to be the well being of Jagdeo's victims. It appears Jagdeo was attracted to very young children. Being assaulted by such a person, at this age, has far reaching effects. The damage needs to be healed. This is not a simple and straighforward process. The cult should hire professionals, with expertise in child abuse to produce recommendations on how to proceed after the victims have been contacted. It is important that these professionals have no connection, in any way, with the cult- other than a professional one.

The cult should then find out who his victims were and see what is the best way to help them. Elan Vital can send out a letter to all its members and ex-members, asking for any victims to come forward.

Then the healing can begin. The cult should have nothing to do with the counselling, therapy and whatever other healing processes the professionals have recommended. They should, however, pay the bills.

Because Jagdeo was a full-time employee of the cult, and was using his position to sexually abuse children of cult members, the cult has a responsibility to face up to. Besides funding professional help for the victims, they need to make a gesture of goodwill in financial terms, of amounts acceptable to the victims. Rawat could sell one of his expensive toys and start a 'compensation fund' immediately.

This will all need organisation, and the organisation should contain at least a cult representative, victim representative, and a professional with no connection to the cult.

At least this would be a place to start.

Anth who will be glad when it's finished.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 21:36:19 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: the civil trial would order this as sentence
Message:
if they do not get ssmart and do it first as any ethical, responsible, morally aware corporation with a conscience would initiate without having to be told to do.

but like Shell Oil, Big Tobacco, The Rocky Mountain Arsenal and the World Trade Organization, some corporations have to be publically embarrassed, sued, and pursued until their stonewalling breaks down and collapses.

I expect the latter from Rawat and EV. And the longer we wait for them to be nice and do it voluntarily, the more time Jagdeo has to 'fiddle about, fiddle, fiddle'...or simpy die.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that the victims need all this. I stoutly believe they won't get it unless a judge orders Rawat and Co to do it or face prison.

And even then, there's always the appeals process. It's one thing to receive a judgement. It's another thing to collect and enforce it.

I think in this whole effort we are contemplating, we need two sides of endeavor: the soft side, the goodguys ( like you,) who will see to the needs of the victims( and potential future victims), throughout, and we need the hardasses, who will pillory rawat and Co and push through the legal penalities and consequences, until satisfied that the bastards have paid back the world what they owe society.

It isnt either/ or. its both/and. nurturers and warriors.

its times like this, that i salute Jim Heller, for his vicious skills in court. There are times when you want the meanest shark in the water to work for you.

I think everyone here knows what their strong suit is. So, each according to his own, and all for the cause. We are not in disagreement here.

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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 19:26:21 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: failure to report a felony ... is itself a crime
Message:
'No person, knowing that a felony has been or is being committed, shall knowingly fail to report such information to law enforcement authorities'

I beleive the above is still law in the US, no?

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:31:49 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: to reiterate:justice re: jagdeo
Message:
well last time saw Jagdeo ,that was somewhat in the early
80's he was about in the mid 50ies, he is probably now in the
seventies and probably no more a great danger for kids.
But nevertheless he should be punished for that.

But not to forget is maharajis role in that.
Jagdeo wasn't his only mistake in choosing instructors.
There are a lot of others that ran wild.
M. took never any responsibility and blamed it always on them.
Example:
Matthias Bretscher,
while he was 'preparing' aspirants for knowledge , one of
them who took the 'right-hand-cut-off-story' for real, did
actually cut his hand off. His name was Christoph Quest, and he
is an actor living and working in Germany.
M's comment:
It was Matthias' mistake, he should have sensed what was going on.

M. is just a big coward who doesn't take care about anybody.
His response to Abi's fahter,is just tactical and out of the expected pressure if this comes to law.
And everything should be done that this happens.

What does he fear?

When Jagdeo will be sued , all the surrounding of DLM/EV in the
past years may come to speech in public.

When that happens a public eye will open up and look on what is
happening there.
The rainbow-press will join in too.
This mean a loss of image for a very long time.

When everybody will be informed where can he find new victims than?

And most important:
The cash-flow will go down.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:22:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: REALLY? That's gross!
Message:
Toby,

What's this about Mr. Quest cutting off his hand?

Mind you, I lived in a premie house with a guy who cut his balls off for God. You know, the bible says 'some men are born eunuchs, some men are made eunachs and some men become eunichs for god' (wasn't sure of the spelling).

Honestly. Sad, but true.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 21:40:16 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: did the housemate do it himself? oh the pain.
Message:
had he done it before he lived in that house?
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:30:27 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: toby
Subject: I need to break a myth, toby...
Message:
toby, you said:

well last time saw Jagdeo ,that was somewhat in the early 80's he was about in the mid 50ies, he is probably now in the seventies and probably no more a great danger for kids...

That is an absolute myth. Pedophiles don't change just because they grow older. It is because of this that elderly perps are often trusted to be with kids. Age is not a factor at all.

That is a worn out old myth about abusers. Period.

Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:44:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I need to break a myth, Cynthia
Message:
Sorry, Cynthia, but THAT's not true. I know. I work in the field. I've done 'Dangerous Offender' hearings which completely consider up-to-date psych evidence on this issue. Pedophiles do indeed slow down as they age and ultimately stop if you give them long enough. Not every case, of course, but generally.

Anyway, this idea of 'bringing Jagdeo to justice' seems far-fetched to me. If he were actually around in one of the jurisdictions where he molested any kids, sure, it'd be like the historic sex assault prosecutions we've seen recently against the catholic church. I mean, even then it's not easy. Cops need strong evidence, usually, but not always, corroborated. If they have that, they'll go to bat. There is a 'zero tolerance' policy extant, at least in Canada and probably the states, Australia and Britain, on even historic sex assaults.

However, the fact that this guys' nowhere to be seen and is, by all accounts, off in asia or africa, really puts a damper on the prospect of any police agency taking this seriously. The offences I'm aware of Jagdeo committing are simply not serious enough to warrant international attention. Now, that's not to say that maybe, somewhere, somehow, some cop or prosecutor would be willing to test the envelope a bit. It wouldn't be contrary to a known property of the phyiscal universe; it could happen. I'm just saying that I'd be very, very surprised if it did. There's just not enough here, yes, even IF all the allegations were in, fully documented and taken at face value. Thus, this Interpol talk seems a little over the top to me. Hell, I'd be happy as hell to be wrong on this but that is my at least slightly informed opinion. But then hell, what do I know? I'm just a counsellor.

Jim

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:32:58 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I agree with you Jim...
Message:
Hi Jim,

Thanks for the correction...I still maintain that it's important not to generalize about these types of offenders regardless of age. Ya never know.

I do agree with you about bringing Jagdeo to justice. The jurisdiction issue has been nagging me for days now because of the many countries Jagdeo has traveled to over so many years. The victims themselves must press charges, only them.

Interpol isn't interested in Jagdeo, IMO--I agree it's over the top. After all, there's no warrant for his arrest and where the hell is he anyway? I am also aware that cops need strong evidence in order to follow through on investigations. This is truly a mess. I wouldn't trust M as far as I could throw him (and that's not very far).

My concern now is this Valerio character. If he is a trained and licensed psychologist and ''trainer for EV,'' musn't he be bound to the state licensing and professional conduct boards? For EV to tell Abi's father that Valerio 'will take care of this' is scary to me because I'd NEVER agree (were I one of the victims) to meet with a licensed psychologist, who can make an assessment of a victim, then turn around and testify against them in criminal or civil court proceeding(s). I'd never extend M/EV any trust. I believe m is out to save his own ass, as he always has and I see no reason for his changing--he is a cult leader, and has a lot to lose.

I'd be interested to know if Valerio's officially employed by EV. Btw, what's his last name? If it was posted here I missed it.

I've also thought about the Catholic Church cases. Yet in those cases, at least one of the first most widely case reported in the US press, had many victims who pressed charges and were willing to testify, and the offenders were located. The RC has much deeper pockets than EV ever will and the church held out on this issue for a long time.

Unless the victims will/can band together, I don't have much hope of this coming to a criminal prosecution. It certainly isn't going to be resolved on a website forum, either. I, too, hope I am wrong...we shall see...

Love,
Cynthia


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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:05:29 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I need to break a myth, Cynthia
Message:
Jim, et al:

I agree. Consider how long it has taken to bring Ira Einhorn to justice, and his crime is not only extremely serious but well-documented with a lot of physical evidence. On the other hand, firing Jagdeo and maintaining a high public profile regarding his past might well hurt him severely. It's not clear how easily he could obtain benefactors under those conditions, and I'd be surprised if he has much of a retirement package. At the very least, it'd be a big inconvenience for him.

I also agree about the statistical characteristics of perpertrators. I think what Cynthia might be alluding to is the fact that age is no *guarantee* that the perp won't recommit, however the probability that he will do so *does* go down significantly. Same thing applies to most criminal behavior, BTW.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:00:29 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Agya, not Interpol.
Message:
Hi Jim,

Jagdeo's master could give some 'agya'. He could tell him to go to England, where the cops would like to talk to him. He could arrange a ticket and ride to the airport. He could tell Glen to contact the Police, and tell them when and where Jagdeo was arriving. Glen could introduce the Police to him on arrival, and hey presto- problem solved.

Anth, who hasn't had agya for ages.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:54:10 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: .....and pigs could fly in the middle of July
Message:
I wish everyone in the world were as nice as you, Anth. Then we would have justice. But Guru Goodbar will have forgotten all of this in the bottom of a bottle of cognac by the time the Amaroo circus starts.
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:00:59 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: .....and pigs could fly in the middle of July
Message:
Pat,

I'm going to have to start stalking you around this forum just so I don't miss your funny names for the goob. Guru Goodbar, LOL!

I agree, as I said before, goomraji is going to distance himself as far as he can so he can blame everything on everyone else which is how he has behaved since he took the 'Crown.'

He was a snotty, narcissistic brat when he started and has only gotten worse. He'll sweep this under the urug! I'll bet you a penny!

If anyone thinks goomraji cares about anything or anyone but himself (and Maybe his family) they are living an illusion.

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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:56:41 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Why July only?..nt
Message:
hahaji
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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:34:31 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Why July?..more flies in July except in OZ. NT
Message:
k
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:07:48 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, Guru Goodbar is giving me a lot of laughs
Message:
these days. I can't wait until he is pilloried by Leno. Glad I'm passing my laughs on to you.
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:36:35 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: The Archbishop of Westminster
Message:
Currently in the news in the UK. The present holder of the above-mentioned position in the Catholic hierarchy was not always an Archbishop. Indeed, at some point in his life he may have been a sentient human being - till the pointy hat went to his head. It transpires that during his humbler, not-quite-so-arch bishop years years, the holy man was required to make decisions on what to do about a paedophile amongst his priestly ranks.

His solution: move the offending animal to a different parish where he might rape the children in his new flock for some years to follow. The 'Archbishop' neither sacked the priest nor notified Her Majesty's Constabulary of his employee's offences.

The Archbishop says 'lessons have been learned'. The Archbishop has yot yet been charged with criminal negligence nor for failing to report a crime. In fact he is widely revered.

EV will too in due course say 'lessons have been learned'. The 'Maharaji' will not be charged with criminal negligence nor for failing to report a crime. In fact he will continue to be widely revered probably now for his 'shining humanity', or somesuch.

Jesus wept, after all, so why not..?


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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:02:23 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Exactly, Nige, Rawat'll brush it under the carpet
Message:
You said: ''In fact he will continue to be widely revered probably now for his 'shining humanity', or somesuch.''

If he ever does say or do something about it it will simply reinforce the faithful flock's thrill that he is indeed a human being. The current PWKs are quite proud of his fallibility and mortal weaknesses and never hesitate to point out just how ''human'' he is.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:07:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: See, I LIKE where that goes
Message:
You know, I'm the first to admit I don't really know how this will all play out, whether Maharaji's meeting with Abi's dad will, in the end, turn out to be momentous, whether this was a major milestone or not. I think one thing, then someone says 'what about this' and I think that, and then this and then that ..... who really knows? Yet, anyway?

But, I do see a real problem for Maharaji if he confirms his 'human nature' like this. In the sort term, maybe not. The short term might be chock full of premie relief that, yes, as they always kind of knew (when they weren't busy kind of knowign the exact opposite), Maharaji's a fallible human being--just like most of you. But this guy's got a messianic cult to run. He's a pudgy hindu love god, don't forget. Conceding that one of his demi-god servants was so dreadfully corrupt and that he, Mr. Big Fat Cultleader, didn't know shit about it (although the evidence to the contrary raises some serious suspicions), and worse, that he's both afraid to call the actual victim himself or even personally take the matter up with his shell corporation, one Elan Vital, leaves an indelible impression of mawkish insincerity and cowardly, frightened ineffectiveness. That image is, even now, burnt on my mind. Indeed, any premie or ex who learns of this strange encounter between two dads, the one who's just starting to wake up and the other with the ether behind his back, will neve forget it. Especially as we won't let them. Visions should commission a plate or something, a little commemorative depiction of Maharaji giving Abi's dad Valerio's phone number. I've got to stop now ... LOL.....

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:33:53 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Seeing is believing.
Message:
Hi again,

Here's my cynical reading of the entrails. The cult tried everything to stop the Jagdeo matter becoming a public issue. They failed miserably, and without any honour or dignity. They were shoddy.

The matter did not go away. It is became a bigger and bigger issue, looking more and more dangerous, doing more damage. Didn't Michael Dettmers say it was the one thing that tipped him into going public? Plus more victims are appearing. More evidence is coming to light suggesting the cult may well have known what he was up- the stuff about him having a 'watcher' when he was on tour. The mess has festered because they haven't dealt with it. Everybody who reads Abi's account can't help but be on her side. She has shattered their case and shamed them into action.

I think someone has sat down and banged their heads a bit. It's been spelled out to Rawat. They have finally accepted they have to deal with her in some way, that at least in cult terms, must be seen as, 'tackling the issue head on'. The troops must have been getting restless.

When Abi's dad read the account of her abuse, quite recently, he was very shocked. He didn't realise to what extent Jagdeo had abused his daughter. He is a premie and he wrote to Maharaji. Here is the cult's opportunity to sort things out. Get Rawat to have a chat with him and tell him how sorry he is. Maybe for her dad that's enough. Maybe not.

Then there's Abi. Rawat has to agree to what she wants.

But that's not the end of the problem. Abi is one of many victims. She is at the front of the line, and we don't know how long it is. What about the others? Is Rawat just as concerned for these victims as he apparently is for Abi? Does he even want to know who they are? Does he want to apologise and help them too?

I hope so. Otherwise it might look like he was doing a bit of PR, applying damage limitation because someone had done some sums.

Anth who'll believe it when I see it.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:50:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Right
Message:
And the thing that Maharaji and Elan Vital want desperately to do is to separate the corporation from Maharaji, to insulate him from liability or responsbility. That is, after all, the purpose of Elan Vital. If that, and the tax advantage, didn't exist, neither would Elan Vital.

Abi's father was a bit of a problem, because Abi was disclosing that he was trying to intercede on behalf of his abused daughter and was being rejected. Looked real, real bad. Has that now ben neutralized? Maybe.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:32:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: At risk of repitition, I don't see it going there
Message:
Jim, I think Maharaji would just as soon people forget he ever met with Abi's father, and the only reason they know about it, it because we are talking about it. I'm sure premies have heard that Maharaji has met with premies before.

Conceding that one of his demi-god servants was so dreadfully corrupt and that he, Mr. Big Fat Cultleader, didn't know shit about it (although the evidence to the contrary raises some serious suspicions), and worse, that he's both afraid to call the actual victim himself or even personally take the matter up with his shell corporation, one Elan Vital, leaves an indelible impression of mawkish insincerity and cowardly, frightened ineffectiveness.

As Donner has said, and as many of us recall, there is a long history of sexual abuse among the Mahatmas. Maharaji took no public responsiblity for it, and let DLM or EV, at his direction of course, dole out the punishment to these people. End of story. I don't know if he talked to any of the victims, but he isn't doing that here, either. He just met with a premie who wants to think Maharaji is a great, moral and loving being. He apparently didn't have to do much to reinforce that view.

This stuff has happened over the years, Maharaji was equally cowardly in all those circumstances, and still is, and it hasn't had much effect.

Now, I DO think the way the Jagdeo situation has been handled to date, and, I think, the abysmal way it will continue to be handled, from the perspective of the victims, might be a wedge to get people to think more critically about Maharaji. But the meeting with Abi's father doesn't really affect that, except perhaps to give some cover to those who want to excuse Maharaji's behavior.

That image is, even now, burnt on my mind. Indeed, any premie or ex who learns of this strange encounter between two dads, the one who's just starting to wake up and the other with the ether behind his back, will neve forget it.

I think you are giving more significance to this that it deserves. I don't know why it's made such an impression on you, and I don't agree it will have such an impact on the premies or the ex-premies. I'm an ex, and it doesn't on me. I think it was a fairly mundane event, not to diminish the effect it has had on Abi.

Visions should commission a plate or something, a little commemorative depiction of Maharaji giving Abi's dad Valerio's phone number.

I doubt Visions wants to play up the event, any more than saying Maharaji met with the father, comiserated, and assured him that Elan Vital would do the right thing. Period.

If Elan Vital DOESN'T 'do the right thing', so what? According to the premies, Maharaji has done his part, and, well, Elan Vital can only do so much, you know.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:13:31 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: why MJ wouldnt meet Abi, only her dad: simple
Message:
Her father is a premie. he still believes. the snow job works.
Abi is an Ex. for her the spell doesnt work. she knows. she sees him for what he is.

he can only afford to move in the world of his yes men, his machine, those who still believe and adore and obey.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 19:04:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: OkaAAAaayyYYY .........
Message:
Jim, I think Maharaji would just as soon people forget he ever met with Abi's father, and the only reason they know about it, it because we are talking about it.

Right. And we're not stopping and it's not going away and that's why this does become a bigger thing than it would otherwise. Beside that, I don't disagree with anything your or Anth say.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:04:21 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: GREAT POST Jim!!
Message:
One of the biggest steps I see is just the simple acknowledgment from their side that they are taking this very seriously, by this one act.

You don't get a personal interview with m without good reason. I am pretty sure hundreds and thousands of letters have been written to him over his 30 year span in the west, some maybe even getting to him and him even reading one or two, some maybe addressing issues just as serious, but they have not been given the same attention in such a public way. Why? Is it just time, place and situation that has warranted this attention?

This can't be dismissed anymore as just a bunch of bitter, mad people spreading viscious lies. People will see this eventually.

For ages EV and pwks have turned a blind eye, and dismissed/ignored all allegations, (even though there have been first hand accounts reported). I don't know what, if anything, will eventuate. I don't know if m will ever change, but I do think that this will have an effect and shake pwks beliefs about things in the long run. As you pointed out, this may take time, after the initial short term relief that he is 'human' wears off. It might start as a hairline crack, but eventually something will give due to the stress that crack will cause, creating an unstable foundation for the belief systems of many, leading to the whole thing tumbling down on a person to person basis.

The reasons why m met Abi's dad aside (but not forgotten), be it a legal thing, a PR thing, concern about potential damage to the upcoming event, beginning in a few days, at Amaroo, with an already disappointing attendance. Who knows, I can only guess. I think it is significant that in such a busy time, where everyone is going all out to raise the attendance, this happened. Very significant.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:12:58 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, I've followed all your posts about this and
Message:
I think you are more optimistic than I am and also perhaps less cynical. The PWKs I know see him through rose-colored glasses and every flaw of You Know Who makes him only more endearing. There may still be a few fence-sitters who have not lost all sense of ethics and normal civilized human values but the die-hards will see this as more ''evolution.''
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:24:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: God, Pat, you make it sound like a cult!
Message:
Is it really that bad? Holy moly. Well, like I said, what do I know? Just thinking out loud.
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:41:15 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Whatever gave the idea that is was a cult, Jim?
Message:
My very dear long term friend who is dissatisfied with the church ladies and who has always been a bit of a rebel emailed me from UK the other day to defend MY criticism of Rawat thus; ''Maharaji is just a premie and Elan Vital is just him and the premies muddling through.''

It broke my heart because I thought that she, my friend, at least would have seen from what heights she had fallen through the ''evolution'' of the cult of the Lord of the Universe into a new age church.

The new non-cult is even more insidious than the old cult because the PWKs are now adept at auto-brainwashing.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:44:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I give up. Let's ALL go back
Message:
Pat,

Did you know that Mahatma Gurucharanand Ji was 'getting it' even WAY BACK THEN? I'm broken. Get me a smart card. Hook me up. Let me sit in the back of the hall.

You win, Maharaji. Joke's on me, bud. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:17:10 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Saintly Charanand was getting laid back when?
Message:
Say it aint so, Joe....say it aint so!

My God, is nothing sacred anymore?

Charanand, the rock of gibraltar of knowledge, the paragon of peace, the one true saint in this whole mess, MY mahatma....

Seriously, if there was one guy who we all thought was really doing it right, one guy who was truly not tempted by this world...in THAT place of sublime peace and devotion to almighty whats-his-face...

Charanand was getting some premie poontang and breaking the ashram rules back WHEN?

I'm so upset, I think I need to go do a little technique #3 and calm down...

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:22:25 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Donner, can you elaborate please?.....nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:14:29 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Donner, can you elaborate please?.....nt
Message:
hi la ex i think i said all i know back somewhere...i dealt with him in miami at m's request/agya when he was about to bolt with a young woman in a v.w. beattle..she had some money too...took about 2 days to talk him into not leaving with her...finally she helped too as she could see there was not much of a future with this older indian guy with no skills and work experience...my tactic then with her.. so he stayed and cooled out in miami area for some time then off again on the road as i recall...circa. 1981-2 ish.
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:52:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now you're talking, Jim
Message:
Well, I DID go back and look where I am now. I cannot recommend going back if you've been out for years highly enough.

I am convinced that Sandy and Deputy Dog would be here posting that M is a fraud two weeks after going back and ''participating'' not just hanging on the fringes. Getting involved is the only way now that one can see it as a cult. The public face is very much that of a new age church. If sandy and Dog saw the inner workings as I did they would be revolted. Fringe PWKs are living in a fool's paradise.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:58:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Good idea. Sandy? Dog? Let's go, boys
Message:
Sandy, Dog,

I'm making an impassioned plea (don't know whether to laugh or cry, don't forget): would you guys consider getting synchronized with me? I'm not going to go back alone, they might kill me. But if you, Dog, were willing to let the whole world know that you are really Anthon --oops! Sorry. Anyway, Dog, I figure that Sandy can do the heavy talking. I think he knows some of the guys up top (I mean REALLY up top) and you can stand there looking all noncommittal.

Sandy, you're always looking for someone to hug. Well hug me, borther! I'm broken. Gurucharanand was getting laid BACK THEN, bro' and I can't get over it. Hugs? Please?

They'll take us. Well ... they'll take me anyway. I still have a good file there somewhere. Lots of pensionable years I never cahsed in. Plus, I'm a loudmouth lawyer now. No, they'll take me. And you guys, I'll get you in just because I won't, I can't, go in alone. What if they hurt me?

Gurucharanand, how could you? How could you do this TO ME?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 02:14:44 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Good idea. Sandy? Dog? Let's go, boys
Message:
Jim,

First, that non-committal look is just me grooving on Holy Name, you know that built in LSD. I’m in and out all the time.

Second, I don’t think I like the idea of being synchronised, sounds to lock step to me. Pat C is right. I’m a fringe premie living in a fool’s paradise. Always have been. But a fool’s paradise isn’t all that bad. You should try it. It’s underrated, like Cloud 8. Cloud 8 is not as expensive as Cloud 9, it’s also less crowded, and the view is just as good.

Third, if you wanted to be synchronised, I don’t think they’d hurt you. They’d probably let you in and just leave you alone, figuring you were a lost soul, totally in your mind. And as you know, M-I-N-D is barrier number one to synchronisation. There is no “I” in team.

As far as what you call the “Maharaji phenomenon” goes, we all had our own way of dealing with it. Maybe I was more cynical than most. Regrets? Sure, I’ve had a few. But then again, too few to mention. Why? Because, I did it myyyyyy way.

And what can we learn from all of this? Well,

There is no political solution,
To our troubled evolution.
Have no faith in constitution.
There is no bloody revolution.

We - are - Spirits, in the material world.
We - are - Spirits, in the material world.

That’s good, excellent, well done. Keep singing and humming this song until you are satisfied, and not before.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:39:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You enjoy Knowledge, Dog? Why do you need Rawat?
Message:
I think you graduated years ago and would probably make a much more loving and responsible teacher.
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:40:06 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You half outed me, I'll finish the job.
Message:
...you nearly outed me, shit, I'll do the job properly and finish your broken sentence,

'But if you, Dog, were willing to let the whole world know that you are really Anthon booze,weed,uppers, downers, sidewayzers, and acetic acid' people would have understood where I was really coming from at last.

Anth the Dogondrugs.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 12:17:02 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bring it on, dude
Message:
Some mahatmas had sex. Omygod. This has never happened before in the history of the world. What are we gonna do? If all else was well with you and Maharaji, this would not have rocked your boat. Situation being what it is, your sarcasm and cynicism over this has a boat to barnacle onto.
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:31:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Fuck off, Snady -- you have no right to say dick
Message:
Did YOU ever try to surrender yourself to Maharaji, lock, stock and ESPECIALLY smoking barrel?

If not, you weren't even on the playing field so how could you understand the rules?

Again and again and again we see this: new age marginal premies still outside the ship on some endless space walk. 'If all else was well' with YOU and Maharaji, you'd have trusted him enough to try to actually follow his agya back then which was, of you recall, to drop everything, including any relationship without kids, for him. What's the matter, weren't you listening? Waiting the word of the master'?

Stripped screw.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:17:55 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Attention all posters: Unless you were in the
Message:
ashram and gave up sex, your word doesn't mean shit according to Jim. That goes for ex-premies too, right Jimmy?

If you really gave up your life to Maharaji, then when he told you to leave the ashram and go live in the world, you would have just done it with the same devotion that you did everything else with and not gone looking for a fight with him over it. A devotee doesn't tell his teacher how to do it, Jim. It's the other way around. I can't see you playing second fiddle to anyone from the way you manifest around here. Is that why you really left?

Jim's previous response, essentially telling us that unless you were in the ashram, you don't have a clue about committment, etc:
Did YOU ever try to surrender yourself to Maharaji, lock, stock and ESPECIALLY smoking barrel?
If not, you weren't even on the playing field so how could you understand the rules?
Again and again and again we see this: new age marginal premies still outside the ship on some endless space walk. 'If all else was well' with YOU and Maharaji, you'd have trusted him enough to try to actually follow his agya back then which was, of you recall, to drop everything, including any relationship without kids, for him. What's the matter, weren't you listening? Waiting the word of the master'?
Stripped screw.

Yeah, well I've still got enough threads on to penetrate your bullshit, so I can't be that stripped. Why don't you go tell Abi's father what you just told me, you completely flaming asshole?

Sandy

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 19:56:08 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: No Sandy, you got it wrong
Message:
What Jim's saying is that it does seem that certain premies (and it looks like that includes you) came cherry picking when they came to Maharaji. And now, 25 years or more later, you are still saying the cherries taste fine. But there were many, many of us who actually thought that Maharaji meant it when he said 'surrender the reins of your life to me and I will give you eternal peace'.

You seem unable to respond to this. Even when I left the ashram and later got married, I still thought I had to dedicate every breath to Maharaji. Everything else I did was spacing out, wasting my life. Having a career, having other interests, and every moment enjoying anything else in this world was ultimately a waste of time. And that's not just my interpretation of what Maharaji said. That is what he said.

Now how come you never heard that?

John.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:02:17 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Sez U
Message:
What Jim's saying is that it does seem that certain premies (and it looks like that includes you) came cherry picking when they came to Maharaji. -JHB

I just love it when one of you tells me what the other one means. You don't know my life, my circumstances, or anything other than what I have told you here. I had just come out of a celibate monestary specifically to come to Maharaji, three years worth. Cherry picking indeed. You reveal yourself with your own accusations. -Sandy

And now, 25 years or more later, you are still saying the cherries taste fine. -JHB

I have said no such thing. I do think Knowledge has very positive effects when practiced. Other than that, what freaking cherries are you talking about, you cherry? -Sandy

But there were many, many of us who actually thought that Maharaji meant it when he said 'surrender the reins of your life to me and I will give you eternal peace'. -JHB

I thought that, too. Married premies are not second-class premies. And who the hell are you to judge all married premies as not being as surrendered as all ashram premies? What a joke.
-Sandy

You seem unable to respond to this. Even when I left the ashram and later got married, I still thought I had to dedicate every breath to Maharaji. Everything else I did was spacing out, wasting my life. Having a career, having other interests, and every moment enjoying anything else in this world was ultimately a waste of time. And that's not just my interpretation of what Maharaji said. That is what he said. -JHB

Yeah, I know you are being real literal here and being real accurate about what he said and all that, but you sure are being mental about it, no heart whatsoever. All head, little to no heart, maybe that is your problem. You thought this and you thought that. What did you feel? Do you even know? Were you also listening when he talked about feeling? Enjoy it all, but remember your life and the giver of it first and foremost, you idiot. Open your ears and take out the wax of hard heartedness and judgement, maybe it will sound different. Yeah, I know you can pull quotes out to prove whatever you want, then I could throw some back at you...just goes to show ya it's (the experience) beyond the words and can never ever be captured or analyzed by them. -Sandy

Now how come you never heard that? -JHB

Everybody hears things differently. I don't see him excommunicating anyone who got married. As a matter of fact, I think he officiated at a few premie wedding, didn't he? You know, JHB, I think at this point I'm gonna go now because you don't want to hear anything else I have to say, I'd bet. I'm not quitting or running, I'm just getting smarter and not wasting my energy when I think and feel it's going to be a waste.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 00:18:55 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: waste my time, then! try this on and explain:
Message:
Yeah, I know you are being real literal here and being real accurate about what he said and all that, but you sure are being mental about it,

no heart whatsoever.
All head, little to no heart, maybe that is your problem.
You thought this and you thought that.
What did you feel?
Do you even know?
Were you also listening when he talked about feeling?
Enjoy it all, but remember your life and the giver of it first and foremost,
you idiot.

Open your ears and
take out the wax of hard heartedness and judgement,
maybe it will sound different.

First of all, i don't think maharaji has a heart. he has a pump that moves his blood, but i don't think he has a heart, not like you mean. if he had a heart, if he had one iota of honor for acting from the heart, we wouldnt have this tremendous storehouse of grievances against hi. if he lived by the heart, he would never found his marriage in trouble. he would neer take a mistress. he would never fuck premie girls who were not his wife and then ditch them.

he would never have ridiculed the denver man whose wife had died, or driven him to suicide with his cruel, humiliating remarks in front of the whole festival.
if he came from heart, he would never have insulted the brother in 1987 who stood up in Palm Strings Knowledge review and told him that he was having more and more trouble meditating since he had contracted AIDS. Nor would he have denied to his face the folowing year having called him a demon at the year previous, when the man's AIDS had advanced to such a condition of pain that he couldnt meditate anymore.

if he lived by the heart, this Jagdeo saga would not be playing out over 30 years.

feeling? i think the only feelings maharaj knows are smartass flippancy, anger, acquisitiveness, avarice, and fear.
oh, and denial.
i think what he experiences as love is actually smug self satisfaction and ownership.
what does he love?
things. watches, jets, cars, gadgets, cognac, meat, money.
insensate objects which neither feel nor return his sentis for them.

people?
i seriously doubt he can feel love for people. He doesnt greet the premies with recognition or joy when he comes out to speak. All business. Chop chop.
he gets up on the stage and he sucks up all that narcissistic attention for every little thing he does an says-but love back?
no.
he speaks of premies with derision. with insult. everyone is fodder for his slams. have you ever heard him praise anyone with genuine equal regard on a par with himself?
he doesnt feel love towards sentient things that can feel love.
I've watched him in Darshan lines. He's bored. He stares straight ahead. He whiles away the time. He doesnt smile and greet familiar faces. He doesn't give. He just takes it. Looks at his watch, hustles thru like a machine. Wants it over with. Its not an encounter characterized by love. Utterly impersonal.
A $2 dollar whore fakes love with a long line of customers better than he does! They're both getting money for putting themselves there, but he just sits there, unresponsive, unreactive, glancing at his watch.

so dont give us this 'come from your heart, come from the feeling' chorus.

if you made love to your spouse and they sat there as unresponsive as he does, you would know something was terribly wrong with your supposed 'love' relationship. there'd be feeling from your side, but not coming back from the other side. you'd be making the gestures of love from your side, but they wouldn't be making any back.

that's not love. they aren't feeling any love towards you. and they aren't demonstrating love towards you.

he doesnt love marolyn. if he did, he wouldnt be fucking monica.
he doesnt love monica. if he did, he wouldnt do this to her.
he doesnt love his kids. if he did, he wouldnt pull premlata out of USC and forbid her to attend college as she wants to.

he doesnt love, sandy. he has this bottomless appetite and he's insatiable. if he had love, he could be satisfied with having nothing. he would show care and compassion. he would greet us as the familiar friends he has had with him for 30 years.
he would speak to us and of us, with love, not derision, ridicule and humiliation.

in the tibetan book of the dead, they speak of one of the hells as the realm of the hungry ghosts--gross, howling, angry, frustrated, missapportioned entities with huge bellies and pinprick mouths, who can never get enough, who are condemned for eternity to want and crave and yearn and hunger and never be able to fill themselves.

figure it out for yourself

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:27:23 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Just one more post before you leave
Message:
But there were many, many of us who actually thought that Maharaji meant it when he said 'surrender the reins of your life to me and I will give you eternal peace'. -JHB

I thought that, too. Married premies are not second-class premies. And who the hell are you to judge all married premies as not being as surrendered as all ashram premies? What a joke. -Sandy

When did I judge married premies? As I said later in my post I thought the same thing even as a married premie. I made no distinction between ashram or non-ashram premies in my post. Please try to read carefully.

Yeah, I know you are being real literal here and being real accurate about what he said and all that, butyou sure are being mental about it, no heart whatsoever. All head, little to no heart, maybe that is your problem. You thought this and you thought that. What did you feel? Do you even know? Were you also listening when he talked about feeling? Enjoy it all, but remember your life and the giver of it first and foremost, you idiot. Open your ears and take out the wax of hard heartedness and judgement, maybe it will sound different. Yeah, I know you can pull quotes out to prove whatever you want, then I could throw some back at you...just goes to show ya it's (the experience) beyond the words and can never ever be captured or analyzed by them. -Sandy

I felt love for Guru Maharaji. I felt devotion for him. I also loved the feeling when my breath buoyed inside me and I floated within it. I loved it when I seemed to be between thought and consciousness. I cried when it seemed like layers of myself were unfolding in blissful ecstasy up my spine. I was struck dumb when the sound of an uncountable number of perfectly tuned, incredible fine, guitar strings rushed through my most intimate self. I was amazed when I came up against myself in the experience of one hand clapping, and I knew that this was all I wanted.

So I should thank the giver of this life? Yes, I feel grateful for my life. But I'm not sure who is the recipient of my gratitiude. This is honesty on my part. None of the amazing experiences I have had have taught me who or what has given me life. If God exists, I know she/he would value honesty.

Everybody hears things differently. I don't see him excommunicating anyone who got married. As a matter of fact, I think he officiated at a few premie wedding, didn't he?

Yes he did this, but he also said all the other stuff about not dedicating yourself to your spouse. Mike Finch has said here how long it took him to get back into the inner circle after getting married. Mike was pretty close to being excommunicated.

Maharaji is full of contradictions, inconsistencies, and downright lies. The obvious interpretation is that he actually is callous and incompetent.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:04:26 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: If a drunk saves your life and then he needs you
Message:
to bail him out of jail on a vagrancy charge
are you going to let him rot there because he is a drunk?
Does the fact that he saved your life have any juice?

If someone can show you how to 'love the feeling when my breath buoyed inside me and I floated within it....seem to be between thought and consciousness...cry when it seemed like layers of myself were unfolding in blissful ecstasy up my spine...be struck dumb when the sound of an uncountable number of perfectly tuned, incredible fine, guitar strings rushed through my most intimate self....be amazed when I came up against myself in the experience of one hand clapping, and I knew that this was all I wanted', how quick are you to write off such a person and judge him for his other life activities?

When a premie comes here and tells of his or her inner flashes, he or she usually gets met with documetnation of doctors who can stimulate the brain to get a 'God experience', limbic and all that....

So JHB, do you think/feel that your experiences were the genuine article or just brain stimulation orchestrated by an Asian businessman? And thank you for your honesty and for sharing on your last post.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:48:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: If an elf borrowed your favorite unicorn .... (nt)
Message:
gggggggg
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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:36:48 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: or ET took the best UFO for a joy ride .... (nt)
Message:
l
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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 16:02:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: or your leprachaun lost your pot of gold ....(nt)
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 17:19:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: or Shirley McLain misplaced a past life ....(nt)
Message:
l
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 00:27:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: or your dream interpretations are inconsistent (nt
Message:
fffff
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 00:46:44 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: or your spirit guide runs off with your medium (nt
Message:
l
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 01:22:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: or you don't know if your guru's God or Satan (nt)
Message:
ggggggggg
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 03:54:25 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: or you know he's both but you're Zoroastrian (nt)
Message:
l
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 04:14:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: or you can't decide between Prempal and Satpal(nt)
Message:
ddddddd
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Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 05:31:14 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: or UR channeling Hans when Sat 'n Prem butt in NT
Message:
k
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:33:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Oh no, was I 'manifesting' again?
Message:
Thanks for the laugh, as usual, Sandy. Yes, I guess I was doing a little manifesting. Sorry.

Anyway, I was already gone by the time he closed the ashrams. But that's beside the point. The fact is that any fair-minded person should agree that Maharaji put a lot of pressure on people to dedicate everything back in the seventies. He, himself, derided premies who kept their own anythings, including relationships. You'd ahve to be an idiot to have missed that but, well, then ....

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 19:24:53 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'any fair minded person should agree' you say.
Message:
I learned about that form of persuasion in 8th grade. It was the way it was so why do you feel the need to sell it like a used car salesman....'four out of five doctors recommend...'

Yeah, I remember that time. I heard of Maharaji in 1973 and did not approach him or receive Knowledge until 1977-78. We all had different experiences, none of which are necessarily invalid just because they were not yours too. I read the stuff about giving it all up, and I also remember that one could travel any way they chose. If Maharaji wanted only ashram premies to have Knowledge, then he would have given Knowledge to only ashram aspirants. Duh.

Anyway, what's the point here? The gap between us doesn't seem to be a practical place to try to build a bridge.

Namaste

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:30:29 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Am tired of you picking on sweet, naive Jim, Sandy
Message:
You know he is just a simple-minded Canuck and unable to take care of himself against thick-skinned sharks from New Jersey. So, please talk to him nicely. ;)
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:20:25 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: You talkin' ta me? Are YOU talkin' to ME? (nt)
Message:
sgthr
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 21:17:40 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: 'any fair minded person should agree' you say.
Message:
Sandy,

OK, you missed some of the really heavy shit, but didn't you read his speeches from earlier times, and also from 78-80? There were many speeches even at that time that made it very clear that dedication of your life to Guru Maharaj Ji was essential to cross the sea of Maya.

And even if you never read this stuff then, you have been reading on this forum for several years now, so why can't you use your brain, and decide that Maharaji did behave in a totally irresponsible way right from the very beginning, and is not worthy of any respect whatsoever, regardless of what you experience from practicing some old meditation.

Why can't you see the obviousness of this?

John.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 19:53:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: As usual, you eschew all the safeguards of reason
Message:
You're such a cagey guy, aren't you? You sound like you're committed to rational discourse but the moment you get pinched by logic, you get skittish. If four out of five doctors really did agree on something they should have some expertise about, there'd be absolutely nothing wrong with arguing that way. But I guess that's never occurred to you, huh? Or is saying THAT unfair too? Hm? How about THAT?

Anyway, if you didn't get k until 77 or 78, you might have missed what I'm talking about. So fine, this doesn't concern you. You weren't there so defer to those who were. Get it?

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:37:53 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Defer? Well, echewze me!
Message:
asjhrdegoi;rghlbnjgfnbjqj[eg
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:46:21 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't have a right to say what?
Message:
Dick dick dick dick dick dick dick.

I got married after the 'give it all up' phase. I obviously gave up someting more than just lifestyle which you don't have a clue about... but that was then and this is now.

So now it's not about Oxford dictionaries, it's about 'I gave up more than you did back in the day'.

Yeah, how apt.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:58:57 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sandy, do yourself and your wife a favor
Message:
Please go back and ask to participate in a synchronized way with your local team. Then gradually move up the divine corporate ladder until some EV honchos start letting you in on some of their dirty little secrets. It will do wonders for you. You may even wake up and smell the coffee is burning.
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:55:42 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OOh - that's so apt, Jim!
Message:
You said: ''.....new age marginal premies still outside the ship on some endless space walk.....''

Beautifully put!

Yep, those are the ones for whom the toothpaste commercial videos are made, for whom the events are so carefully edited before broadcasting, the ones who have never really known diddly-squat about Rev Feelgood Strangelove, the ones who are not in a cult, have never been in a cult and it's just them and Maharaji....a dot sitting on a stage talking blissful nonsense.

Most of the PWKs are like that and I mean MOST, western and INDIAN householders. The only difference is that the Indians will be very upset when they here about Rev Rawat shennanigans.

And they will.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:50:35 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Pat: Rev Feelgood Strangelove
Message:
Thanks, I needed a laugh! The Rev Feelgood Strangelove is also a ''Stripped Screw!''

Interesting, what you said about the Indians' reaction to this...I hope it's true.

Love,
Cyn

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:48:23 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Gush gush gush (nt)
Message:
gag
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:54:24 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Sour Grapes, Sandy? (nt)
Message:
gag
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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:17:05 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: PatC and Jim
Subject: OOh - that's so apt, Jim!
Message:
I also like the 'stripped screw' epithet. Jim, you good!

Pat, I can't agree more about the Indians, from my old days spending a lot of time around them. That's why so many of them (including Fakirinand aka Maxwell Siverhammer) bailed and went over to M's big brother Saddlepal back in the 70s. And that's why Saddlepal lives in Premnagar ('near Hardwar, on the banks of the River Ganges') and not the talking DOT. His father's house was given over to Saddlepal, because many of them will not tolerate certain types of transgressions.

If you find a way to get the word out, that would be SO cool.

--f

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:34:44 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: The irony about the Indian premies is that they
Message:
are very pious and conservative. We got caught up in something that seemed like it was more modern than tomorrow but for the Indians Rev Feelgood is more like Billy Graham - a revivalist who is bringing back all the old moral standards and that good old-time religion.

They will be pissed when they hear that he eats meat. They will be mad when they hear that he drinks booze. They will flip when they hear that he fucks other women besides his wife.

I'm working on a plan for the Indian premies.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 15:47:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Hypocrisy and perversion is now ok?
Message:
This is about their hypocrisy, not about them having normal sex. They were telling premies to 'give their all to Satguru', which included premies depriving themselves of sex, exercise, and adequate food and clothing. They did this while they were having sex in a very perverted way, in a way that victimized people. The mahatmas were also victims of Rawat, since he made sex deprivation a requirement for being a 'mahatma'. Not for being 'satguru' of course. But Rawat looked the other way when some of them molested people. Even in situations where the sex was somewhat consentual, it was pretty weird. Here they were, supposedly 'mahatmas' and 'the Satguru', that put them in a position of psychological power over premies. They abused their power and the trust of premies.

You say 'This has never happened before in the history of the world.' Well of course it has, so what? Because plenty of other people are hypocrites and perverts, it's ok? Imagine a serial murderer trying to defend himself by saying 'Well, other people have been serial murderers.' Two wrongs don't make a right. That's Ethics 101.

This is also about how much of Rawat's 'message' has been total bullshit. They don't even believe their own bullshit. They went on and on about how 'pure' they are and how 'impure' the common premies (and especially 'non-premies') are. What's really impure is their bullshit.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:27:52 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Hypocrisy and perversion is now ok? NO!
Message:
It's not OK, was never OK, but it happens. Human nature.
Question is, how does it get dealt with once it does, in a way that preserves whatever was good before without nuking the whole marketplace over it and killing everything within 20 miles.

If you could add up all the mahatmas and then add up all the indiscretions, I think you'd have a very small percentage of bullshit, really. Tendency circa 2001 here on this site is to focus JUST on the bullshit so that's what you see the most of. If you focussed on the good that has been done you'd be singing a different song and you'd be howled off this site.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:12:39 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: It's a big pile of bullshit.
Message:
'It's not OK, was never OK, but it happens. Human nature.'

It doesn't just happen, it's something that people
willingly do. To say 'Human nature' is like saying
'They couldn't help themselves, they are only human.'
You are making excuses for them. It sounds like you're
too much into Valerio's 'avoiding judgement' and
'no right and wrong' bullshit. Face it, what they did
was wrong.

'Question is, how does it get dealt with once it does, in a way that preserves whatever was good before without nuking the whole marketplace over it and killing everything within 20 miles.'

Expose them for the corrupt assholes that they are. If people get something out of meditation, they should realize that it has nothing to do with whoever showed them the techniques. There needs to be a decoupling of meditation and Rawat. It's Rawat that did the nuking by insisting that it's because of his 'grace' that meditation works. He is still claiming this but using different words. He also stopped premies from talking, he silenced them. In his egomaniacal delusion, he thinks he's the only one qualified to say anything. You don't need a cult to meditate.

'a very small percentage of bullshit'

If I were a criminal, I would want you as my judge. In reality, the hypocrisy and perversion is rampant. It's much worse than I suspected. Besides, you can't measure the bullshit as a percentage. And what are you saying, that what you imagine to be an end justifies all of Rawat and Co.'s abuses? It doesn't.

'... here on this site is to focus JUST on the bullshit so that's what you see the most of.'

Sometimes you need to prune a tree. Elan Vital is looking like a tree that needs to be pruned down to the ground. If people want to meditate, they can do it without Rawat and Elan Vital. They can stay friends if they want, if fact, maybe they would actually start to really talk to each other! I also think that people can learn meditation better without Rawat, he sucks as a meditation teacher.

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:39:20 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I agree.He'll use it to his benefit...nt
Message:
vv
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Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:27:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What actually happened?
Message:
I've heard a whole lot of interpretations of what Abi said Masharaji and Valario said to Abi's father. I have reprinted excepts, below. In them, I do NOT see that either Maharaji or Valario (nor Elan Vital) are agreeing that Jagdeo actually did what he is accused of. At best they are saying they are sorry if he did. I see no admission of any responsiblity from Maharaji, Valario or Elan Vital, nor any kind of a plan to do anything about this.

Here's what she said:

Basically M said how sorry he was over and over again and that EV had to take care of it.

Except exposing the lie that Maharaji doesn't really direct Elan Vital, how is that actually different from what Elan Vital has been saying all along? Sure HIMSELF has now uttered the same words, but after that he washed his hands of the whole thing.

In her letter to Maharaji, Abi said:

I also appreciate that you are deeply sorry for the pain that Jagdeo has caused me, my brothers and my father.

Well, okay, he's sorry if Jagdeo did anything, but still no responsbility and no real admission that he actually believes Jagdeo did what he is accused of. What, is he going to say he ISN'T sorry? So what? If he is so sorry, why isn't he personally overseeing an investigation, especially since Jagdeo was HIS mahatma, not Elan Vital's.

I understand that you feel you can't speak to me directly but I have listened with an open heart to the apology you passed on to me via my father.

Why does he 'feel' he can't speak to Abi directly, I mean if he really thinks she was abused, and if he is so sorry and all. What is is problem? I mean, I know he's no longer God, and isn't even a leader, but he is supposed to be the reason that Elan Vital even exists, and he is the reason Jagdeo had the opportunity to do what he did. And he probably knew about it years ago.

I understand that you feel that you and Elan Vital are different agencies and that this matter must be taken up with them.

Maharaji isn't an agency, he is a person. The idea that they are separate is ludicrous and exists only to provide a shield from Maharaji actually having to do anything for which he is responsible. I can see a premie accepting this absolute nonsense as having some kind of reality, but ex-premies accepting it is very sad.

That the damage will be taken care of by Elan Vital.

Really? Just how do they propose to do that? Compensation? Possibly financing a lawsuit by Abi against Jagdeo? Yeah, he won't even talk to Abi, so that's unlikely. The 'damage' they are talking about is the 'damage' to Maharaji, not to Abi. This is extremely unfortunate, but undoubtedly true.

In this respect Valerio, acting for Elan Vital, told my father that they will do everythng they can to bring Jagdeo to justice.

Haven't they already said they did this? I mean, they asked him and he denied it. What, are they going to torture him until he confesses? Other than giving Abi Jagdeo's address and let her go after him, what will they do, other than protect their own, and Maharaji's, asses, which is the whole purpose of that organization? Since they won't even talk to Abi, how do they propose to do anything of any substance about this? Since they claim to have no actual evidence that anything was done, except Abi's letter, do they plan to do a worldwide search for other victims. Somehow, I don't think Milbank will let them do that, nor does Valario, Maharaji or Elan Vital have any intention of doing so.

Valerio also said that Elan Vital will offer a public apology.

Apology for what? Do they admit they knew about this? Will they run the draft by Abi first? Somehow I don't think so. Will they apologize on behalf of Jagdeo? WOOO big deal.

Any suggestion that they might try to track down the MANY victims of Jagdeo who seem to coming out of the woodwork on a daily basis?

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:25:02 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: What actually happened?
Message:
Hi Joe

What actually happened? Except for the parties involved, we can only speculate and discuss. We were not there.

I read Abi's open letter again. I think you have to look at the whole letter, not bits and pieces of it.

I thought Abi was very measured, dignified and showed a lot of integrity, in what is undoubtedly a very distressful matter. As Jim said below, I don't think she is anyone's fool.

Abi said:

first of all, thank you for taking the time to speak with my father alone yesterday. I am pleased that you appreciate that he deserves respect. My father is a decent and courageous man. I also appreciate that you are deeply sorry for the pain that Jagdeo has caused me, my brothers and my father.

I see this as Abi respecting and feeling for her father, and letting m know this is what is important to her.

I understand that you feel you can't speak to me directly but I have listened with an open heart to the apology you passed on to me via my father. I have let the rest of my family know how very sorry you are and we are glad of this. Thank you for caring about us as fellow human beings. Your humanity shone through at the meeting you had with my father.

I interpret this as Abi saying what she understands from what has been reported to her, not that she necessarily realizes why he can't talk to her. Plus once again, she acknowledges her father, and family.

I understand that you feel that you and Elan Vital are different agencies and that this matter must be taken up with them. That the damage will be taken care of by Elan Vital. In this respect Valerio, acting for Elan Vital, told my father that they will do everythng they can to bring Jagdeo to justice. I hope this is done as swiftly as possible. I and others are concerned that he may be abusing children now. I am very glad that after all these years the truth about this man Jagdeo is being faced. I am glad that Valerio is also acting with integrity about this matter.

Once again, Abi is just stating she understands that is what m feels, she does not state this is her understanding or belief. Even though he has distanced himself from EV, Abi then says that m feels EV must address the matter and take care of the damage, via Valerio, and states they have said they will act. She then expresses her reasonable concern about ongoing abuse by Jagdeo, and relief at maybe seeing some action/justice after all this time.

Valerio also said that Elan Vital will offer a public apology. I look forward to that happening very soon. I think this will represent an important moment for a great many people. I hope very much that you can also address the matter when you speak at Amaroo. This represents a unique and powerful opportunity for healing.

Abi is making it known on a public forum that Valerio said EV will offer a public apology, and suggests a platform where this can start.

I hope that my father and I can continue to have a respectful dialogue with you and Elan Vital about this matter.

An expression of wanting to keep it straight forward, clean and clear.

You were once my Master. Now I am beginning to understand your humanity.

Thank you Maharaji.

With respect,

Abi

When I read this last sentence, I nearly cried for Abi's dignity and courage. Unfortunately, then my objectivity went out the window. I thought here was this little girl, put in a school, with the complete trust that this was a safe place for her on all levels. In the guise of children's SATSANG, one of m's officers, sexually abuses her and others. After this horrendous incident, at 13 she RECEIVES KNOWLEDGE, loves m as HER MASTER, and wants to be HIS PREMIE.

I did wonder why he couldn't talk to her, all legalities aside, taking this into account. As he was once her master. I would think (hell, maybe it's just another one of those crazy concepts I have) upon hearing about it, as m indicated, for the first time, as THE MASTER, in the world where he has stated that every single human being matters, he would have jumped up and contacted her immediately, expressing his concern and love for her and condemnation (to put it mildly) for Jagdeo using maharaji's SATSANG as the means for his sick paedophilia.

I also wonder about Susan, and all the other victims. Shouldn't they be given the same immediate attention as Abi?

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:32:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: What actually happened?
Message:
Connie,

With all due respect, I am not commenting on how Abi or her father felt about what happened, and I respect those feelings. I am just saying that from an objective perspective, that not much really DID happen. I was reacting to the undue significance that I think people were giving this meeting. Not that it isn't significant to Abi and her father.

And I agree, that if Maharaji was really serious he really would try to get in contact with Abi and request to speak to her, and express his sympathies personally. It was only through persistence, and a couple of years of discussion on the internet, before Maharaji even relented and met with her father.

And if he we really serious and sorry he would personally see that an investigation occurred and he would personally call Jagdeo to task, and not delegate it to some corporation, which is separate from him in only a legal sense.

Abi was, after all, and as she wrote in her letter to him, one of his devotees for a number of years. She owes her at least some personal contact, even if Abi chose not to accept it.

And I also think you are correct that this 'investigation' will deal only with Abi and will not seek other victims, including Susan. I also hope that Abi isn't disappointed by the 'public apology' that Elan Vital issues. And again, why isn't Maharaji issuing it?

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:17:31 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: agree with your very valid points, Joe
Message:
I have thought and asked myself the same questions as you.

I too recognize the impact and pressure EPO had on the situation.

I hope that as more people hear about what has and is going on, their conscience and humanity will come forth and thereby force long overdue attention and action.

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Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:05:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Very true Connie, thanks. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 05:49:31 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: agree with your very valid points, Connie
Message:
'I hope that as more people hear about what has and is going on, their conscience and humanity will come forth and thereby force long overdue attention and action.'

Just had to repeat your words. This is a public forum, and there are many premies who could benefit from reading here.

Best Regards, Lesley

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Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:26:39 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: If Maharaji were really honest
Message:
He'd just have the premies kiss his arse at Amarscroo.

You and have worked in law enough to know that EV and M are not going to do ANYTHING that isn't going to further saving their own hides. Period. Bottom line. I'm glad Anth has that letter from Glen Whitaker threatening legal action against him by EV for even mentioning Abi and Susan on the Forum. I just saw that one on the main EV website today, dated 1999. At least it shows how far their good intentions went back then.

As far as the legal remedies discussion goes, the less said on the forum the better. If they think we're going to brainstorm in public they're really smoking something.

--f

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