Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Apr 25, 2001 at 22:15:37 (GMT)
From: Apr 15, 2001 To: Apr 25, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


la-ex -:- how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:14:15 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Well if he IS sincere... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 11:55:09 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Moreover (M please read) -:- Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 10:16:30 (GMT)
__ donner -:- how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll) -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:52:44 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Valario -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:24:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- General question to Mike, Mike and any other X-PAM -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:33:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ donner -:- General question to Mike, Mike and any other X-PAM -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:01:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Shopping too much -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:57:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- Shopping too much -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:21:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Shopping too much -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:31:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Eve Jacobs -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:20:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Eve Jacobs is a human being rather than a 'suit' -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:33:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Eve Jacobs is a human being rather than a 'suit' -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:10:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- I did service for the instructors' training -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 19:44:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Yikes -- tx for the inside view n/t -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:05:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- and the tennis lessons, massages and -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 07:25:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- M has soft spot for Charanand. Jagdeo too? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:46:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- NOW I'M FUCKING ANGRY!!! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:38:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- NOW I'M FUCKING ANGRY!!! -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:19:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- NOW I'M FUCKING ANGRY!!! -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:33:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ donner -:- NOW I'M FUCKING ANGRY!!! -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:35:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- That makes two of us -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:54:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- You naughty boy salam -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 20:11:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- A lawsuit against Rawat -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:48:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Cheryl Gunnarson? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:58:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Seva Corp Amer -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 19:03:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Someone in LA can go down to the LA courthouse -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:24:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- LA court search, anyone? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:30:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Search Service -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:35:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Effective Organizational Systems: Valerio -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:52:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- LOL -- this corporate training thing -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:33:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Churn out the toasters and be glad MF's (nt ) -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:48:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Psychologists used against abuse victims -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:30:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- That's what I've been trying to say.... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 20:36:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- P.S.... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 20:41:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Pepperdine and Valerio -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:14:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- make sure they know their money goes to maharaji -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:09:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Forgot to say the Valerio watch should say ... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:32:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Valerio: 'walking in the footsteps of the Master' -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:14:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- This is incredible, the cherry on top of the cake -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:10:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- CORRECTION, I meant Tegeshwaranad/not Padarthanand -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:19:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Padarthanand - not so nice -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:02:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Padarthanand - not so nice -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 21:25:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Gitanand? Was he a git? LOL -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:56:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Thanks for the laugh, Francesca... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 15:11:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Gitanand taught me the meditation methods -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 21:47:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Gitanand was the one that killed the cat ... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:23:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Gitanand was just the first.... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:36:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- And I've started to call it ''Knollidge'' because -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:24:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- NOW you are pulling our legs, Jim -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:57:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- No exaggeration, Pat - we WERE like that -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 13:39:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Yes, Katie, I know, I was like that too -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:04:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- Aaagh, Pat! -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:34:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- No exaggeration, Pat - we WERE like that -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:06:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie H -:- G - I can relate -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:39:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- The rumors -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:49:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Not kidding at all. We were all like that, Pat -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:01:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gary Epton -:- More like un-mounties. nt -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 07:24:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Where were you? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:41:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- In Maharaji's World, brother Joe! Where were YOU? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:55:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Charanand and his sexual liaisons with premies -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:16:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Answer me this please, Joe -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 20:09:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Okay -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:40:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Charanand was fucking a beautiful woman in -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:09:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- I never would have guessed about Charanand! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 15:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I know Canucks are a bit naive and sweet but -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:07:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- This pisses me off! -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:15:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Amazed -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:04:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Now THIS is like the Jerry Springer show -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:08:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Now THIS is like the Jerry Springer show -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:48:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Can you imagine Gurucharanad having sex? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:20:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Can you imagine Gurucharanad having sex? Yes! -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:05:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Can you guys take this somewhere else please? -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:44:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- I made a note of it, Jim. -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:08:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I made a note of it, Jim. -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:17:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- You must be bored with FV if you're answering me -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:31:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Pat, didn't notice it was U I answered (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:51:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Sorry, Jim, did notice it was -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:21:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- It's too gay to imagine another guy having sex -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:34:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Excellent questions, Jim. I hope we can keep this -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:45:31 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Of course there's already a Jagdeo -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:16:15 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Whoever said.... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:56:56 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll) -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:40:51 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll) -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:10:09 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll) -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:15:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Zelda Brockovitch -:- how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll) -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 05:33:32 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Go girl! -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:42:40 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- He'll go to ground -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:24:54 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Interesting Speculations... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:13:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ michael donner -:- Interesting Speculations... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:03:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ PatC -:- The bare-faced liar will brazen it out. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:56:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- The bare-faced liar will brazen it out. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 14:58:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Cynthia, every morning I wake up happier than -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:25:53 (GMT)

PatC -:- Was Jagdeo one of the king-makers? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 21:54:39 (GMT)
__ janet -:- i doubt charnanand could have had a guru biz -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:28:34 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Wasn't Gyanyoganand a guru.... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:23:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie Darling -:- Not-so-blissful Gyanyoganand memories.... -:- Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:24:44 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Dogs bark whilst he halts by them .. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:15:17 (GMT)
__ __ PatC -:- Bin: ''The Barons can't dethrone him unless.... '' -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:07:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- thanks to kelly's call to india, jagdeo can't -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:38:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- thanks to kelly's call to india, jagdeo can't -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 20:26:53 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- And another videoclip on EPO -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:12:48 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- I haven't seen pieces of Donald Trump, Bill Gates, -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:55:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yeah, Francesca, but what about Robert Maxwell? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:51:08 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Excellent work as always, JM -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:42:45 (GMT)
__ __ Kaj -:- how arrogant little Rawat is! -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:44:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ kev -:- how arrogant little Rawat is! -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 19:27:47 (GMT)
__ __ Gerry -:- Shades of M and Amaroo? warning: ruff -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:54:29 (GMT)

Salam -:- Charanand Giving no-lije in Sydney -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:39:28 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- If it's free, go (but take your own koolaid) -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:42:51 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Easy said hard to do. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 06:55:39 (GMT)
__ Katie Darling -:- Charanand Giving no-lije in Sydney -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:02:37 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- KD, am really suffering here you know -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:04:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- you wont get sucked in. go and prove it. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:00:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- janet, janet -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:28:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Babs -:- Jowls -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:06:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- Jowls - the cheek meat of a hog. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:02:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Like Paul McCartney? (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:41:32 (GMT)

AJW -:- Jagdeo Victims -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:12:25 (GMT)
__ janet -:- Jagdeo Victims--write to me anth-- -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:12:48 (GMT)
__ E. Windsor -:- The children are starting to scream -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:14:27 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- This might be useful -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:51:03 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- there has been a pic on ex premie org for a long -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 19:19:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I know but that's a RECENT pic -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:51:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- no dave. he was never bald and saffroned. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:10:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gary Epton -:- He has one lazy eye -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:31:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ PatC -:- ....and one evil eye for keeping on the kids. NT -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:05:38 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Jagdeo Victims -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:05:20 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Jagdeo Victims -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:00:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Jagdeo Victims -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:27:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- I think you are exaggerating -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:31:37 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Jagdeo Victims -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:04:49 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- Defense lawyers for Jagdeo -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:17:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Good One, Katie.... n/t -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:32:00 (GMT)
__ Sandy -:- Anth -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:25:28 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- What do I want. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:01:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- If all you want is to help the victims... -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 12:57:49 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Correction... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:31:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- It could have happened this way -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:15:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- It could have happened this way -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:30:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- It could have happened this way -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:28:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- More junk from Sandy's Myth Machine -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:45:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Myth machine? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 21:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Myth machine? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:00:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Evidence? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:15:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Upper middle management? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 17:46:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- reconcilliation. -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:54:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- You find it 'silly or ridiculous'? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You are fishing for a fluke, and I don't mean fish -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:16:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- What about the manslaughter wobble dance? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:44:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- What's wrong with this picture? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:30:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- There is no way randy would keep this from rawat.. -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- What's wrong with this picture? -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:36:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- ask Jim, I cant read you.......nt -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 17:24:42 (GMT)
__ Jim Sander -:- Thanks for doing the right thing, Anth... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:12:40 (GMT)
__ __ Katie Darling -:- Here it is! A Jagdeo watcher... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:08:23 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Thanks for doing the right thing, Anth... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:03:41 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks for doing the right thing, Anth... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 19:17:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Yes, Jim's post is VERY important... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 19:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ Jim Sander -:- Thanks for doing the right thing, Anth...Also.... -:- Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:18:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Unity School Teachers -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:07:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robert Setton -:- Good luck Anth -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:09:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Am I right, Robert? You'd like m to fall? -:- Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:16:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bazza -:- Klang Klang Klang -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 05:42:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ PatC -:- Klang Klang - you mean the Klaxon's wailing -:- Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 07:33:33 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:14:15 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll)
Message:
I'm just curious...it now seems that m is human after all, and cares deeply for the 'rank and file' premie, and abused kids,as well...

At least this is what the current spin is.

My guess is that m uses this to 'reinvent' himself, as the 'kinder, gentler' master...

I can see him, if he addresses it in amaroo, even shedding a few tears, and getting a tough, no nonsense attitude in his search for justice...

This totally new side of m could go a long way towards 'warming up' or 'humanizing' his image....for new people, and for fence sitting premies as well....it certainly couldn't hurt him in any way, since he has to address it soon anyway...

One example: I was out with an old time premie and his 'new premie' girlfriend one night recently, and the old timer tells a story about how shri Hans once beat a mahatma for stealing a rupee....the gist of the story was that maharaji and the organization have extremely high moral standards...what a laugh!

Point is, the premie, because m told the story, believed it totally, as did his girlfriend...if he gives an academy award winning performance at amaroo, I'm sure the faithful will believe him, and it can also give him a certain type of 'inoculation' against the issue when it gets more publicity...

Maybe I'm cynical, but I see m sizing up his opportunity now to come out with the 'new, improved' m, in order to shore up the troops...

One thing we might consider:

Making a specific site about this (jagdeo), for collecting information that can be used in the process as it unfolds...
There could be a link to EPO....first time posters or lurkers on the jagdeo site might get their first glance at EPO and other things as well..

Comments?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 11:55:09 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: la-ex
Subject: Well if he IS sincere...
Message:
...his main concern will be to trace Jagdeo's victims, one by one (a) to enable the police to build their case, and (b) to apologise and compensate those victims one by one.

If he is not sincere, he will treat the matter as 'dealt with' already.

EV is uniquely positioned to trace Jagdeo's victims from over the years and across the continents. EV alone will have some sort of record of his travels and 'working' schedules. EV alone have access to the community networks where appeals may be launched - not to mention the web and satellite technology. EV do what Maharaji tells them to do. So a sincere Marahaji (if that isn't an oxymoron) will marshall ALL his resources and appeal for information, witnesses, victims.

A sincere Maharaji will confront the scale of the damage and make amends. That alone is the litmus test. It will take time and enormous effort, and can NOT be achieved in the current 'information vacuum' that is EV.

According to Glen Whitaker's letter to Anth an internal investigation was already carried out. ('Tell me Jagdeo, did you ever abuse children? - No? - Oh, thank heavens for that. Sorry to waste your time..')

It will be interesting to watch how things pan out this time around, but the circumstances and timing of this sudden display of Prem's humanity smell less of sincerity than of damage limitation.

My prediction is this: Margo will make a minor public apology for the behaviour of others, maybe exploit the occasion to enhance his image as a 'caring' person then dump the whole episode in his out tray.

Let's see if he does any different...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 21, 2001 at 10:16:30 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Moreover (M please read)
Message:
A number of recent posters have expressed doubts over Jagdeo’s ever being brought before the courts. Jim made it sound extremely unlikely – especially if Jagdeo is in Africa or Asia. This is a truly depressing thought.

But I wonder if we’re overlooking one obvious solution: Jagdeo may be a monster, but isn’t it also true he is still a devotee? As such, Maharaji need only order the creep to hand himself in. Give him express agya to submit full documented confessions of all his sexual assaults over the years to the relevant authorities.

No wishy-washy cross-examination by Valerio or whoever, but a straightforward command, on pain of hell-fire to obey the SUPREMEST INCARNATION OF GOD standing before him. How could it not work?

It would at least be a measure of Maharaji’s integrity if he were to make the effort – and for once in his life put his undeniable ‘powers’ of social influence to worthwhile use.

How about it, Guju? Time to bring out the rotting vegetables for old-time’s sake.

I assume you DO want to see justice prevail?

(BTW: I wrote this post off-line before noticing AJW has made the same point higher up. Not plagiarism, Anth - more a case of 'great minds...' ?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:52:44 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll)
Message:
how will he play it...he will sacrifice jagdeo just like he would sacrifice anyone else to save his reputation...nothing new here..he often canned instructors who screwed up becasue it made him look bad...after all, he selected these folks and has a reputation to uphold. so, its not big deal, new or otherwise for him to crucify jagdeo...might have earlier if he knew earlier or it became an issue earlier. this means nothing new and should be interputted as nothing new.

choice of valario is still interesting to me...what is his authority visa vi e.v. again??

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:24:00 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Valario
Message:
Didn't Mercedes say that Valario was in charge of 'trainings' at Elan Vital? I understand his wife also works for Elan Vital.

So, if Maharaji said that 'Elan Vital' was dealing with the issue, then Valario would make sense.

I think you're right. Maharaji will can Jagdeo like a hot potato, and that will be the end of it. I doubt Elan Vital will make much effort to try to get any criminal prosecution. Who knows what Jagdeo might say under oath?

I doubt they will offer Abi any compensation, as that might open the flood gates to all of Jagdeo's victims, and there appear to be many. The 'apology' will be carefully worded to take no responsbility, or admit anything. It will be a kind of sympathy card, at best.

Donner, you said you hadn't heard about Jagdeo's crimes. Do you recall Palokanand when he was discovered molesting little boys? That, I am sure, was widely known among the premies.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:33:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: General question to Mike, Mike and any other X-PAM
Message:
Joe asks about reports re Parlokanand. I wonder if either of you guys (or anyone else who was there and could answer) could explain just what the process was? I take it that at some point someone complained about Parlokanand. Complained to whom? What was the process? When, if at all, did Maharaji involve himself, directly or not? What were the specific allegations (and what's important here is how widespread allegations would be before some official action was taken)? Were there under-the-radar lawsuits and secretive settlements? What do you know about those, if anything? What happened to Parlokanand afterwards? Sent back to India, sure, but then what? Any idea?

And what about some of the other guys? For example, Trebinanand, who out-and-out raped Patty in Regina? Or Tejeshwarand, who maintained a virtual harem in one of the two side-by-side Vancouver ashrams, going so far as to have one of his girlfriends, a housemother from Philadelphia flown up to help 'look after Mahatma Ji'(insert joke about 'City of Brotherly Love' to taste)?

Was there a process?

Finally, to expand this a bit, and get off the issue of sexual exploitation, what can you guys tell us of the frequency with which other lawsuits or scandals came Rawats way? I remember Darby from Vancouver tried to give her large inheritance to the cult. All I know is that there was a suit and I think her family succeeded in reclaiming the money. But what else was going on? Surely, that wasn't an isolated affair.

I know that, in some ways, these questions might seem burdensome but all I can say is that you guys were there, we weren't, and you really can complete the picture for us. Indeed, as you already have. This is just a bit more. The answers, especially on the sex stuff, might help us all think more clearly about this all.

Thanks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:01:11 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: General question to Mike, Mike and any other X-PAM
Message:
some answers...kinda...parlokanand and others situations and 'crimes' were broght to m's attention by various people depending upon who was kinda responsible for communications with them and their scheduling, etc. some when via bob mishler or me...info we got generally from the 'communication system to the ashrams or communities...ie..nancy brown, joe natter and others while in denver would be talking with the ashram community coordinators nightly...getting info...give info etc. such reports would come in and the offenders would be called into 'headquarters' waiting often days and weeks to get some direction. one time m asked teddy tannenbaum for example to think of some outrageous punishment for two indian mahatmas (not sure which ones)...one was sent to paint some outdoor thing in kansas in the hot sun for days and days...one was assigned to help tar the roof of the kitridge building for example...and then perhaps sent to india.

if they were sent back to india there was communication directly between m and sampuranand almost always...sometimes discussions in hindi re what they would do in india...not sure...sometimes the discussion revolved around the sensitive situation in india re the family feud and how their being sent back would affect that situation within the family struggle.

the couple western initiators who 'fell into sex' were usually defrocked and sent to their home countries...sometimes wiht and somethims without explanation to the nat. coordinators or city coordinators.

there were never any lawsuits re the indian guys that i knew of and likely i would have...no settlements etc.

one exception was charanand..who got into a few relationships and m was always very upset but also forgiving sitting him out for months and months adn then he would be assigned again. m clearly had a soft spot for him and he never was involved in anything that wasn't consentual...so to speak...considering the age and power differential involved which makes consentual questionable.

some of the others in line of communication re falling/fallen mahatmas were bill paterson before me, mishler before him...bill working with m re the candidate files before me and liaisoned with instructors before me...i was in that spot from like 80-84 and i remember a few 'western' instructors getting out there in sexual ways (hetro and gay both) and just a bit crazy like mathieus for example....and those spending too much money, shopping too much, not giving satsang or k properly etc.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:57:31 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Shopping too much
Message:
That's funny. I can remember one of my biggest problems as a Community Coordinator was that the intiators had almost nothing to do. There were, at best, a handful of aspirants in any community I was ever in. They gave satsang at night, occasional reviews, etc. Anyhow, many of them DID get into shopping big time. I can recall taking initiators to department stores while they decided WHICH silk blouse and Gucci shoes to buy, while the ashram premies couldn't afford new underwear. Something about it seemed strange. I always thought they were trying to immitate Maharaji, in only buying the most expensive clothes.

And I won't even get INTO Ann Johnston. It took an entire community of premies just to keep her clothes cleaned, pressed and repaired, not to mention earning money to buy her new clothes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:21:11 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Shopping too much
Message:
ya, that bit really use to bug me too...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:31:53 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: Shopping too much
Message:
Used to bug me too. Just what Joe said. We'd be trying to make ends meet. I remember when Eve Jacobs stayed at Galewood Circle ashram in SF. I really liked her, but she was in la la land. The community coordinators would just let these folks go wild (don't get me started re Grace Wallis, although she was also kind to me). I remember when we didn't have money for some really basic stuff. Eve was reading a novel and sort of hanging out during the day. Ironically, it was the same novel that Barbara Mahler had confiscated from a sister during David Smith's 'purge' prior to Eve showing up. (Ashram premies were not supposed to read books!) In that way, she was a breath of fresh air, because of the stark contrast to Herr Schmitz.

Eve wasn't going to satsang every day, either. But one morning she woke up and was in a real playful mood, saying, 'I want to buy a hat! I'd like to go out today and buy a hat! How would I look in a hat!' She asked the house coordinator for money. We had a sensible house coordinator, and I think she tried to be as tactful as she could be. Eve was nice, but many of the instructors were just clueless. And bored.

I think it was largely imitation of M. Of course there was Elliot Brye, Bill Rowe, Kathy Sullivan and some others who never asked for much. But they were the exception. Were they given pep talks by M that they were owed this sort of treatment, or was it just the 'culture'?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 17:20:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Eve Jacobs
Message:
I have to admit, when I was CC in San Francisco, I took my Emporium credit card and let Eve buy a new 'darshan outfit' including a new hat. She had me wrapped around her little finger. She sweet-talked me into doing it after the ashram coordinator said they didn't have the money.

Not that I was attracted to her or anything (obviously), but she was really nice to me, just as a friend, and I could talk to her during a time when I felt really alone and miserable. She even called me a few times from other communities to see how I was doing. So, I confess, I indulged her in a bit of a shopping spree.

When Richie Azzarone came to town and we imitated the Moonies and sold flowers on the street to raise money for fatso's plane, some of he money we made went to pay off Eve's clothing bills.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:33:55 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Eve Jacobs is a human being rather than a 'suit'
Message:
I can imagine that Eve was a breath of fresh air after what Schmitz put you through. She certainly was for me, as far a being someone I could just talk to. Things eventually got so oppressive around the shram that I enjoyed selling flowers with Richie and John Gannon. We also sold those mexican pots with Chico. At least I got out of the house and nobody got on my case for not doing service. But I must say I'm glad to know that our house coordinator had some sense. I was told that when Eve was sent to LA after SF, the house coordinator there also had to clip her spending habits.

I didn't like some of the instructors' decadence, but I think that it was a strange situation for them also. I don't think Rawat wanted to pay their clothing bills out of his coffers. After all, Rawat is the man who would starve the premies working on his plane and cut the budget for their comfort-level expenses rather than to treat them like human beings. The instructors were probably told it was a sign of respect for Rawat and his stinking K for them to 'dress up' and for the ashram premies and community premies to pay for it. So the ashram premies were caught in a rotten squeeze. Have almost nothing for yourself, and then have these decadent instructors thrown on you, one after the other if you lived in a major city. That was one of my major drips, for sure.

Hierarchies stink, don't they. Not only having to treat M like god-in-a-bod but then to be forced to kowtow to the instructors. I'm sure that anyone who was fanatically into the cult -- be they an instructor, in the ashram, or living in a community -- has some regrets for conduct done out of mindless blindness.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:10:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Eve Jacobs is a human being rather than a 'suit'
Message:
Actually, Eve was in San Francisco prior to the purge of the Nazi Smith. Eve really was a fun person, and very down to earth. She was really good to me, but then I kind of needed somebody to talk to.

It was during the Smith Inquisition, that I talked to Eve quite a lot, although she was in another community. She told me, although she made me swear on a stack of Bagavaad Gitas that I wouldn't tell anyone, that she also believed David Smith was mentally ill, but she didn't dare say anything because Smith was also technically in charge of the initiators in the region. She felt Maharaji didn't know what a sadistic bastard he was. I disagree with that, and note that David is still serving the lotus feet, so fascism appears to have its rewards.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 19:44:07 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: I did service for the instructors' training
Message:
in Malibu sometimes in the late 70's early 80's. I was their support person, making sure they got fed and taken care of as they went through their 'training,' which consisted of hours of satsang all day, occasional visits to the Res. to get patronized by the 'family,' and then evening satsang, the highlight of which would be the attendance of Claudia, or someone who lived close to MJ.

I was allowed to sit in on the evening satsang because I was the instructors' support person. I was able to do this service because I was considered a 'wealthy premie' through my husband (this was a bit exaggerated, but got my hubby and I good seats). Anyway, the group of initiators-to-be that I was mothering were mostly women, and serious shopaholics. They kept asking me to take them shopping, and they were incredibly sweet to me (more than to many other people) and it took me a while to catch on that they wanted me to subsidize their wardrobes. In fact, it wasn't until we were actually IN the fancy stores that I realized that they didn't have money of their own. Looking back, I can't remember how far I went for it. I know I bought them some stuff, but I felt incredibly manipulated. I mean, this wasn't basic nice clothing, but real super-designer stuff.

And I also felt, and feel, a lot of compassion for them. They were like trapped animals. Not allowed to have sex or sexual interest ever again, yet they were a sexy bunch. There was all kinds of food obsession and of course shopping is the new sex (I just read that somewhere). So I can understand their desperation. Having reached the pinnacle of their world (I mean, I always wanted to be an initiator, and felt bad that I had married and blown my chances, because I thought it was the closest place to MJ) they were actually miserable, deep inside. They have all left and married now, although I think some of them are still premies. One is strung out on drugs.

In retrospect I'm so glad that I never got back into the ashram/instructor system after leaving in 1976. Although I felt torn, and that I had blown it, at least I didn't suffer the extreme deprivation on all levels that many of my friends went through in trying to sincerely dedicate their lives. Somehow, for me, my ashram life in the early years, much of which was in Spain and South America, was mostly fun. But the later years the ashram scene really looked like a hell-realm.

love Katie Darling

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:05:55 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Yikes -- tx for the inside view n/t
Message:
n/t
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 07:25:55 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: and the tennis lessons, massages and
Message:
psychic ''readings.''

I was practically starving in a basement in the Haight that was so damp it had mushrooms in the bathroom and had just been asked to give money towards a dinner that we were doing for the newly blinded-by-the-light premies in Lawton Street ashram when the latest transient male instructor (can't remember which of the suited clones it was) asked for money for his tennis lesson.

I'm beginning to realise that the drips started LONG ago, probably even before I got Knollidge. But when you're desperate for a roof over your head you don't care if there are a few leaks. You wait until the roof caves in. I just wish to god I hadn't kept patching the holes with my own rationalizations.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:46:38 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: M has soft spot for Charanand. Jagdeo too?
Message:
I know he had a soft spot for Sampuranand because of incidents in the past. Has his soft spot for Jagdeo made turn a blind eye for all these years? What is that soft spot? Or is it more like emotional blackmail?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:38:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: NOW I'M FUCKING ANGRY!!!
Message:
..one exception was charanand..who got into a few relationships...

Thanks for your answer, Mike. It all helps. But this above, oh man, I'm pissed! You know, I'm not too sure how much to dress this up; it's a pretty naked emotion really: I'M JEALOUS!

Want to know why? I'll tell you why. The other day I emailed Jennifer Boire at the email address in the thread below 'fyi - as announced on 'firstclass'. You can see the scurrilous things I said to her. Anyway, she emailed me back, teasing me, amongst other things, for being the obviously sexually-repressed horn dog I was then. Something about how I used to really look for love, doing all that 'heavy gazing' .... And hell, Mike, she's right! When I wasn't giving it all to Maharaji I was trying to do something with it. Something. ANYthing.

And Jennifer was so cute bakc then, I could have just reached over and ....

no!

. I was an ashram premie. Indeed, the point was I was a premie, who cares about the ashram? A premie was someone who realized that this life wasn't really his own, right? Like Mahatma Guru Charanand, huh? Boy, did he, and all the drones who fell all over him when he came to town make me feel like a dirty, little worm. In the Downpour of the Hoooooooold on there, Mahatma Ji. I was had!

Mike, details, please. More details. Leave the girls' names out, if you like. I don't give a fuck. They were every bit as hypocritical as he was. But, please, what is this shit?

Thanks (??)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 03:19:22 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: NOW I'M FUCKING ANGRY!!!
Message:
relax ole timer...sex in the ashram was pretty guilt ridden and not much fun as i noticed and experienced once or twice...guilt and no context for real feelings ...context man...give me context anyday
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 04:33:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: NOW I'M FUCKING ANGRY!!!
Message:
Thanks, Mike. I feel SOOOOO much better. :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:35:24 (GMT)
From: donner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: NOW I'M FUCKING ANGRY!!!
Message:
anything to try and help , jim.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:54:14 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: donner
Subject: That makes two of us
Message:
You coming to the anger managment seminar? :)

Hey if it makes you happy, I wasn't in the ashram, but where I was I knew that a lot of ashramiees were porking each other. (I even managed to pork one myself). They were the same ones that were running the show. So there you go.

(no offence to the enlightened souls)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 20:11:47 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: You naughty boy salam
Message:
I thought you were a Moslem. Isn't porking forbidden?

Anth the fromage de tete.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:48:45 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A lawsuit against Rawat
Message:
Jim,

You asked about lawsuits. I know of a record of one lawsuit against Rawat, which was filed in California. It was actually against Seva Corp., but that's just one of Rawat's shell corps.

Detail Record No. 155

Information America Database: Lawsuit
Information Current: 01-01-1980 through 06-30-2000
Last Updated: 07-20-2000 (Updated on a monthly basis)
Filed: County Clerk Civil

Case Number: C582663
Filing Date: 01-10-1986 CA
State: California
County: Los Angeles
District: Central (Los Angeles)
Court: Civil
Defendant: Attens, Ferdinand
Defendant: Seva Corp Amer
Defendant: Pascotto, Valerio
Plaintiff: Gunnarson, Cheryl

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:58:05 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: G
Subject: Cheryl Gunnarson?
Message:
Does this name ring a bell for anyone? Thanks for this information, G.

Does the computer abstract list any more details? Does it show the attorney for the the plaintiff? If so, who is it? It would be very easy to have the court file pulled and review it. It's all public record.

What or was the relationship between Valerio and Seva? Anyone know? Anyone know about the other personally named defendant?

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 19:03:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Seva Corp Amer
Message:
This is not from a company abstract, it was from a search (on lawsuits re Seva Corp. of Amer.) from www.knowx.com and I believe from the courthouse's web page (I'll have to review how I found it). I couldn't find any more info online. I think there is some info on Seva Corp. of Amer. here at EPO, if not I have some info on it at home. Here's a little on it, I have more at home:

SEVA CORPORATION OF AMERICA
Number: C0858497
Date Filed: 1/5/1978
Status: active
Jurisdiction: NEVADA
Mailing Address
P O BOX 1437
THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358
Agent for Service of Process
JOHN K BALE
516 N. PENNSFIELD PLACE, SUITE 108
THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91360

Source: results of search at CA Sec of State web site

Further info on Seva Corp. of Amer. can be obtained from the CA Sec of State. See Corporate Records

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:24:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Someone in LA can go down to the LA courthouse
Message:
and look over the records. As you say, they are public records. If I lived down there, I'd do it myself. I'f there's a lawyer or paralegal, they'd be able to cut to the chase and see if any of it was worth copying because there would be a per-page charge. The LA courts are such a zoo that it would be good to find out what their procedure was first. At least the final resolution or judgment would be of interest, the original complaint, and the memorandums of points and authorities for both sides, I would imagine.

And if there was no final resolution and just some sealed settlement, so much more for the intrigue factor. And we have Valerio involved. Interesting. The guy who's supposed to make it all right for Abi and her father and all Jagdeo's victims. Yeah, right. The plot sickens.

--f

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:30:47 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Francesca
Subject: LA court search, anyone?
Message:
Your sentiments are mine exactly. I have to search these records all the time for my habeas cases, so I know the procedures in each of the different courthouses. It is a total zoo in LA clerk's office. If you get a death penalty appeal from down there, you never can be sure that you get all the records from the trial because it is so disorganized. But a civil case like this is different. Just who was the plaintiff's lawyer??? And who defended Valerio -- his brother?

Potentially very interesting or a total dead end.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:35:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Search Service
Message:
I you wanted to spend some cash, you could hire a search firm in Los Angeles and they will get the files and copy whatever portions you want. What I do sometimes is get the firm to get a copy of the docket sheet. Then, I select from that what I want copied. Anybody with a litigation background can see immediately what is important and what isn't.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:52:16 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Effective Organizational Systems: Valerio
Message:
Valerio's a licensed psychologist for the state of California. As of today's date, he holds a valid license to practice in California. It appears it was issued in March, 1994.

But take a look at this link: www.eos.org
He runs Effective Organizational Systems. Read the site, Joe and tell me what you think.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:33:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: LOL -- this corporate training thing
Message:
has been going on for years in DLM and EV. I remember Prentiss Uchida, and W. Tim Gallwey in LA in the late 70s to early 80s. Premies worked for their companies. I remember an old ashram buddy (and a dear heart) working on major contracts to the telephone utility companies training the employees. I think it had to do with Tim's 'inner game' stuff. John Berzner was just a great salesman. Because he worked for Advent (early video technology, before VCRs), he was responsible for getting communities Advent video equipment and got the communities into video early on in the technology.

Our satsang skills, as has been discussed before, were getting pretty honed. If you took away the raw belief in M, some of us could have easily given M a run for his money.

I don't know, and it hasn't been discussed where I've seen it, why M shut down ordinary premies from giving satsang. My guess is that 1)some of our slobbering devotion was embarassing on the one hand but 2) some of us were great at motivational speaking, from doing it for so many years. We had to convince ourselves and others of quite a bit of baloney. Auto-brainwash.

Damn, we were good. Too bad I don't look corporate, and I don't look good in a suit. Even if I did, I'd be laughing at myself too hard. Let's face it, I'm too much of a cynic to take my bullsh*t that seriously.

Love, --f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:48:08 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Churn out the toasters and be glad MF's (nt )
Message:
ffffffffffff
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:30:38 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Psychologists used against abuse victims
Message:
This is the man who is supposed to be 'helping' Abi and her dad.

Well there's a licensing board for pyschologists. And its more strict than the licensing board for Gurus. (LOL) If he steps out of line, or does something unethical, he could lose his license or be disciplined. It seems like they are sicking psychologists (Valerio) and human resources consultants/attorneys (Marcia Leitner) on Abi and Susan and god knows who else.

These people are skilled in their craft, and skilled at damage control, and know the whole game re potential litigation. It's a minefield for the victims to talk to these folks without their own skilled advocates.

We should definitely keep a Valerio watch.

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 20:36:54 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: That's what I've been trying to say....
Message:
Btw, I abhor these types of people and organizations which do nothing but suck the money out of corporations--money which ought to be going into salaries of employees. I also hate the word team.

So, I agree with what you have said, Francesca. The last person who should meet with this character is a victim. The website is particularly culty (as I find most of these management consultant types).

I wonder what his clients would think if they knew they hired a bona fide CULT MEMBER to train their management staff? Like, the American Heart Assoc., Arco, the City of Pasadena, the Daily News, Ernst and Young, Fedco, First Interstate Bank, Fleishman-Hillard, Goldman Sachs, Pepperdine University, Southern California Edison, Southern California Gas, University of Southern California, and the Watts Health Foundation?

I think I'll make it a project of mine to let them know. I have nothing to lose--let the lawyers come after me, I frankly don't give a rats ass. These consultants are bloodsucking, moneysucking, leeches. Actually, leeches have more value.

If any of the victims meet with this guy, they are swimming in shark territory. I've said this a few times over the past few days....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 20:41:53 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: All
Subject: P.S....
Message:
I'll also add when I contact his clients, that he's working for a cult, of which he is a member, in the matter of child sexual abuse perpetrator, a pedophile, who has been harbored by this person's CULT for over twenty years--on THEIR BEHALF!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 16:14:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Pepperdine and Valerio
Message:
Pretty interesting. I don't know how liberal the culture might be at Pepperdine, but my impression is that it's pretty much known as a Republican, conservative, WASP establishment, although I was told recently by a young Republican friend of mine who graduated from Pepperdine Law School that a couple of the Democrats in the California legislature are Pepperdine grads. Pepperdine's law school that was offering some kind of position to Kenneth Starr around the time of Clinton's peckergate scandal!

It would be interesting to know how far in the closet Valerio has to be with his cult affiliation.

There is a strange tie-in, as you pointed out, with cult speak and corporate training speak. I know that some of the western Buddhist teachers are branching out into that as well. Corporate training would not be used if it wasn't at least offering the promise of success, personal fulfillment, wealth and satisfaction. Kind of like a corporate cult religion. The church of the power players and team builders.

I'll have to think about that one, because some of M-s higher uppers and instructors have branched off into corporate training. Mystifying blend of buzzword mumbo jumbo, that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 09:09:08 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: make sure they know their money goes to maharaji
Message:
and point them to EPO
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:32:00 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Forgot to say the Valerio watch should say ...
Message:
BREATHE. So should the Jagdeo watch.

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 18:14:09 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Valerio: 'walking in the footsteps of the Master'
Message:
Thanks for that link, Marianne. What is it about these PAMs and their ''management consulting businesses?'' Joan Apter too. These are the ultimate parasites. They produce nothing but hot air for sale to the highest bidder.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:10:17 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is incredible, the cherry on top of the cake
Message:
Mahatma guru charanand getting laid, no wonder he was so blissed out all of the time. I had my suspicions about other mahatma's who I personally encountered and chauffered around, but charanand, No never.

Here goes another illusion, might as well get to it and destroy all remaining sentimental attachments to the cult and expose its seedy little secrets.

Pardarthanand had me wondering why he always wanted to load up the car with handpicked sisters and cram together in the back seat of the car and go on a so called sightseeing trips or errands.

Hmmmmm .......and there were many more of these excursions with him and more sisters around him than with the other mahatma's I was assigned to look after and drive around on their visits to Portland back in the early days.

Keep knocking down the illusions gents, it is enlightening to know that I/we were duped in more ways than I had previously imagined. Exposing the soft underbelly of the cult helps me realize how fortunate I am to have gotten out and how the fruit doesn't fall too far from the tree.

And I am with you on this one Jim, angry and well yes, jealous in a way, since I repeadedly took the high road and avoided any sexual overture or contact when there were many opportunities to act otherwise.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:19:33 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: CORRECTION, I meant Tegeshwaranad/not Padarthanand
Message:
Teg was the one who loaded up the car with the sisters, P was actually one of the more nicer mahatma's
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:02:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Padarthanand - not so nice
Message:
There are some posts about him.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 21:25:09 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Padarthanand - not so nice
Message:
Yeah, I read those posts about P a few weeks ago, I was speaking in reference to my own personal encounters with them.

The strangest mahatma I encountered was this one named Gita Anand a tiny little man who pitched a major fit when he was served concentrated OJ. He demanded fresh squeezed orange juice at a time when the premies were barely making ends meet and were cutting major corners finacially. He looked at me with this incredulous gaze and scoffed, 'how can I drink anything else'! I scurried off to the market like a good devotee.

He off course was oblivious to the struggle and took major advantage of the Grace of GMJ as he envisioned his entitlement to special treatment. He sat there enjoying his fresh squeezed while the rest of us drank OJ concentrate.

I never heard of or saw him after that even at festivals, anyone have a clue as to whatever happened to him?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:56:14 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Gitanand? Was he a git? LOL
Message:
Larkin, here's a character for one of your epic songs! Mahatma Gitanand, the biggest git in DLM/EV.

We could have Mahatma Prickanand, Bonkanand, Shaganand, and Scruanand. Also Whineanand, Spendanand, Demandanand, etc. All coming to a community near you! Aaaaaaaaaaa!

And if you ask for satsang, they say, 'not tonight dear, I have a headache.'

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 15:11:31 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Thanks for the laugh, Francesca...
Message:
Hi,

I love your sense of humor, btw. This one is a gem:

And if you ask for satsang, they say, 'not tonight dear, I have a
headache.'

I can't believe we're talking about Mahatmas and their girlfriends, errr, well, yes I can...

Love
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 21:47:18 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Gitanand taught me the meditation methods
Message:
But I've no idea what happened to him.

John.

PS. I've given up the use of the words knowledge and techniques the way the cult uses them for Lent or Borrowed or maybe for Ever.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:23:56 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Gitanand was the one that killed the cat ...
Message:
.. for some reason or other . It was mentioned here once before ; he got shipped back east as a consequence ,if my rumour addled brain has any credibility .

I remember the little fucker well , no wonder you've ended up an unbeliever if he showed you the trick .

Pressing your eyeballs till they pop out of your ears is all wrong .

You should've got yourself initiated by a true great soul .....like M . Guru . Charnanand .

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:36:07 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Gitanand was just the first....
Message:
....I was retaught the meditation by so many others I forget their names, but I know it included Gurucharnanand and some fat bloke called Rawat, so I'm sure I got it right eventually. Actually Gitanand did not teach pressing the eyeballs - he taught the light touch version, although he did say that I should listen to 'the right side of ear' for the music meditation. Of course he could have been speaking Yorkshire and meant 'the right side of 'ere' and I missed where 'ere was.

John the master of many methods of meditation taught by Shri Hans Ji's downstreamers.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 22:24:48 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: And I've started to call it ''Knollidge'' because
Message:
it sure ain't real knowledge. To add insult to injury, Guru Goodbar Feelgood Strangelove also teaches four ancient techniques BACKWARDS. I kid you not. The first two are the most dramatic for peasants and that's why he does them first.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:57:51 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: NOW you are pulling our legs, Jim
Message:
You're kidding right?

You were that naive, altruistic and idealistic?

If you are not bluffing then you are to be commended for your purity. Cynical old fags like me always saw all the dirt and forgave it because who was I, a filthy perv, to judge anyone?

Hedonism was easy to forgive. The new revisionism and conspiratoriality is not.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 13:39:53 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: No exaggeration, Pat - we WERE like that
Message:
And I didn't even live in the ashram - although I knew a lot of people who did, and it was the worst for them. I knew MARRIED couples who tried to remain celibate so they wouldn't be 'distracted' from devotion to M. 'Women and gold' and all that other BS.

Have to say that it makes me angry to read about Charanand and others too - the celibacy/no relationships/M comes first rule caused an enormous amount of pain for many people I knew, and for me personally. It is hard enough to have a relationship anyway - almost impossible when you were competing with Maharaji.

Katie
(not from Canada)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:04:49 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: Yes, Katie, I know, I was like that too
Message:
mata Ji told us to stop having sex with our wives. My marriage broke up. I was twisted into a ball of repressed sexuality and THEN Rev Strangelove got married. I felt like I had been kicked in the balls. But I shut up and defended him against criticism by others. Sick! Yep, I was sick.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:34:59 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Aaagh, Pat!
Message:
Some of the things Mata Ji said were pure poison. It would have been nice to have a public retraction of them after she split with Rawat, don't you think? 'Blame it on Mata Ji' doesn't work too well since Rawat apparently believed some of the same things she did.

I never had a clue about the mahatmas, M's drinking, etc. until I read this forum. I WAS freaked out when Rawat got married, but rationalized it too. I WAS naive, for sure - not like Sandy, who apparently didn't take the stuff about relationships seriously.

My life turned out OK, but I know many others whose lives were affected in a very negative way - and for good.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:06:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Katie H
Subject: No exaggeration, Pat - we WERE like that
Message:
I was like that, very gullible, idealistic, self-denigrating and denying, and nieve. I had no idea any of this was going on. I didn't hear the rumors because nobody told me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 11:39:05 (GMT)
From: Katie H
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G - I can relate
Message:
Your statement very gullible, idealistic, self-denigrating and denying hits a nerve. I have some bad stories about this whole thing which I can't tell here, but a lot of people's lives got screwed up.

Ever notice how many of the people who post here don't have children - and how many are still single? (That could be a phenomenon of who has time to post more on the internet, but I don't think that is all it is.)

I didn't realize I was still so angry about all the BS we were fed about relationships.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:49:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: The rumors
Message:
I also was gullible and took what Maharaji said, and what scheisters like Charanand said, seriously. I did hear a few rumors, all of which turned out to be true (which is, by the way, the case with almost all the rumors I heard during my involvement as a premie, and I'm sure it's still true today), but Mahatmas like Parlokanand, Fakiranand and Vijayanand, and some ashram premies who got into relationships or otherwise erred, were often made public examples of. Disgraced, rejected by Maharaji, etc.

For that matter, the 'holy family' was also an example, all of what could happen to you if you listened to your MIND or followed your DESIRES, both of which were mortal sins in the Maharaji-cult world, and could lead you to everlasting maya and pain. No one, we were told, no matter how high. And of course, the WORST, desire was sex. Little did we know that Maharaji was having sex with Marolyn at age 15, sex with other women premies at 25, and since his 30s has had an ongoing mistress. And many of the Mahatmas were doing similar things.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:01:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Not kidding at all. We were all like that, Pat
Message:
No shit. I'm serious about this. I took it in stride when I heard that Mahatma Ji was a little unrenunciated in recent times. That's okay. So am I. But this is the first I ever knew -- or even thought -- that he was getting laid -- oh my god, I can barely even say it! -- back when I was furtively trying to hide the fact that I actually ate a couple of grapes from Mahatma Ji's shelf in the fridge. It was like that, Pat. In the seventies, in Canada at least, we were mounties.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 07:24:49 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More like un-mounties. nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:41:25 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Where were you?
Message:
Hey, I thought Charanand's sexual liaisons were common knowledge, at least by about the early 80s. Even I knew about them. By that time, I thought for other reasons that Charanand was a monumental fake and snake-oil salesman, so it didn't surprise me that he was also a lying hypocrite. But I can remember that by the time I got to San Francisco, which was about 1981, Charanand using is holy wand with the ladies was well known.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:55:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: In Maharaji's World, brother Joe! Where were YOU?
Message:
You too, Joe? Holy shit, I feel like I'm in The Invasion of the Body Snatchers or something. You know, as I've posted here several times before, I grew quite hostile to Gurucharanand, thinking that he was just too slick, too fake. I thought I could see through that 'winning smile' of his and got sick as hell of his music. But never, for the life of me, did I eve suspect that he, of all people, was sexually active. You know, anyone who wasn't there (and I mean really there) would never understand how scandalous the notion of him, of all people, crossing that line. But you were there, Joe. So your blase response to this mystifies me.

All I can figure is that you are definitely talking about the early '80s and not a moment earlier. Something must have really changed in those last years you were around because when I was still in, up to '81 I think, yes, this would have been scandalous.

Having said all this, does anyone know if Gurucharanand was fucking his 'close friend' Caroline from Vancouver back then?

Boy, do I feel had! Seriously.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:16:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Charanand and his sexual liaisons with premies
Message:
Regarding the timing, yes, I think I only heard about it in about 1981, but when I heard, it was that Charanand's sexual liaisons had been going on for years. In fact, I spoke to a women who said she had sex with Charanand. This was around 1982.

Actually, by the time I heard about it, I was also already on a slow ascent out of the cult, so it probably was just one of the 'drips.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 20:09:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Answer me this please, Joe
Message:
Did you ever sit through a single one of his living saint one-man shows AFTER you knew he was a ..a... a... FORNICATOR?

I can't imagine it, personally, if you know what I mean. I'd have said something, done something, walked out, something. Can't see you doing otherwise either.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 23:40:36 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Okay
Message:
No, I don't think I did, but I did see him 'sing' at a couple of cult guru-worship programs after that with that group with Arthur and Rich. He stunk. All three stunk.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:09:00 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Charanand was fucking a beautiful woman in
Message:
West Hollywood in 1977 and 78. I know because she was my friend and told me. Before I heard gossip in London in 74-75.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 15:36:00 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Pat
Subject: I never would have guessed about Charanand!
Message:
When I was in the ashram I never heard anything about Charanand. I was also one who followed the rules, except in my mind, when I found someone attractive, then felt horribly sinful and ashamed for having such thoughts.

Before I went in the ashram my ''premie boyfriend'' (who coerced me into having an abortion after consulting with Charanand, along with his prominent family's pressure) was always Charanand's tennis partner (his daddy owned a tennis club in Hartford), and chauffeur whenever Charanand was in the Hartford area. Actually, as recently as 1997 or '98, this premie drove Charanand around Florida for ''guest appearances'' at premie communities after a program in Miami. I know this because I had met with this person and he told me he was still hanging around Charanand whenever he could and he had spent the entire past year following M around the globe.

Never heard a rumor about Char. when I was in the cult. I'd be interested to know just what this premie knew about Charanand and his sexual exploits (he wouldn't have told me, even if he knew about it then). He worshipped Charanand and felt special because Char. was his friend, which, made him feel closer to the goob. Charanand advised this premie to surrender his life to the goober and that I should, too. I never had even met the creep! That Char. was put up on a pedestal as a really, especially, realized soul does put the icing on the cake for me.

OOOOOOHHHH it pisses me off. Liars, all, and the goober's on top of the list. What a scoundrel! What a User!

Love,
Cynthia


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:07:03 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I know Canucks are a bit naive and sweet but
Message:
I still can't believe that you did not know about Charanand's shennigans. He was a notorious womanizer and wherever he went there was girl gossip that fags were allowed to listen to. Most of his conquests were tickled pink.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:15:54 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: This pisses me off!
Message:
What fucking assholes these guys are! I had no idea about any of this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 14:04:48 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Amazed
Message:
I was around at that time and thought I knew a lot of the dirt, but I never heard a word about Charnanand! I always used to think of him as a eunuch. Around the time that people mention him having affairs (73-82) I coulda really used the information, so as not to feel guilty about my own leaping libido. DARNIT!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 18:08:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Now THIS is like the Jerry Springer show
Message:
An unfortunately paranoid brother who posted under the name 'Runamok' used to decry the forum as being nothing better than an internet version of Springer on account of all the fighting. That was dumb. However, THIS kind of stuff really does remind me of Springer. Only instead of learning that your brother's been fuckign your wife AND her sister for all these years, it's Gurucharanand who comes out from behind the curtain with his arms around a couple of girls.

And what's the show all about? Whee's the money shot? It's that close-up of your face, premie-ji. You done been had, girl! Ha ha ahaaaaaa [studio audience]

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 23:48:51 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now THIS is like the Jerry Springer show
Message:
Yes, it's beyond bizarre. This thing with Charrypoo is somehow more amazing than MJ having torrid affairs, although I never knew about that either, until I found out here. I always used to tell friends that I had a pretty crummy guru, but at least he wasn't one of those sex abusers. I used to say I thought he was too paranoid and shy to be one. Fu-u-u-u-ck! Who knew?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:20:10 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Can you imagine Gurucharanad having sex?
Message:
I find it kind of hard. He is all skin and teeth, and I can't imagine him out of saffron robes.

It IS funny to think of Charanand loading his suitcase into a Volkswagen Beetle and leaving with some premie sister to start a new life, while Donner tried to talk him out of it. I would have LOVED to have seen that!

And then, the light bulb goes on in the sister's brain. 'Oh yeah, this guy is OLD, he has no skills, he's broke, and also, he's FUCKING WEIRD! What was I THINKING?'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:05:16 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Can you imagine Gurucharanad having sex? Yes!
Message:
Perfectly awful. Skin like dried parchment, dry lips. It would be like making love to a shrivelled skin shed by a snake or a cocoon discarded by a caterpillar or a pod vacated by an ET.

They sure were an UNsexy bunch. About as exiting and passionate as prunes with cold custard. I don't even want to think about what their private parts were like.

Oh all right - like the Mugwumps' members in Burrough's ''Naked Lunch'' - crawling around with a life of their own looking for orifices to penetrate.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:44:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Can you guys take this somewhere else please?
Message:
Pat,

You, too, should hear that King Missle song. Get the CD. You'll love it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:08:50 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I made a note of it, Jim.
Message:
But it better be twisted. My sense of humor is pretty weird.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:17:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: I made a note of it, Jim.
Message:
You'll love it!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:31:47 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You must be bored with FV if you're answering me
Message:
What happened? The joint was jumping. Now it's so quiet that I'm having to look at porno sites. I wish you'd start some controversial thread.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 02:51:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Sorry, Pat, didn't notice it was U I answered (nt)
Message:
gggggg
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 05:21:18 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, Jim, did notice it was
Message:
your writing style doing the guguguji rant to Gary above. I loved it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 00:34:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: It's too gay to imagine another guy having sex
Message:
Joe,

If you haven't already, you have to listen to King Missle's 'Gay / Not Gay' song. It's on the 'Failure' album. I just searched for an mp3 for you but couldn't find one. Trust me, Joe, you have to hear this. It's that funny.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:45:31 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Excellent questions, Jim. I hope we can keep this
Message:
discussion of the inner workings of DLM/EV alive.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:16:15 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Of course there's already a Jagdeo
Message:
page, front and center on the EPO main page at:
http://www.ex-premie.org

Under harboring a pedophile. Even has a photo of Jagdeo. I remember him as a fanatic of sorts, sort of bug-eyed and intense.

Some of the information Susan mentions is already posted there, with links, such as Abi's story, letters from Anth to Whitaker, Whitaker to Anth.

Susan made an impressive list, and hopefully what is appropriate can all be added. I just browsed that portion of the site today, and Anth was even threatened by Whitaker with legal action against him by EV for posting on the forum about Abi. So they've already gone on the record as denying it, in my opinion.

There's also links to the Dettmers letters, and letters to Dettmers from Terry Yingling and Marcia Leitner of EV. So la-ex, check it out. A lot of the ugly truth is already posted!

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:56:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Whoever said....
Message:
That Maharaji doesn't give a crap about abused kids? I'm sure if presented with an abuse victim, he would say he was sorry he/she was abused. Why is this any kind of revelation? No one has suggested that Maharaji is a cold monster. I'm sure he likes his kids, at least some of the time, and I heard he took the time to convert a dog to vegetarianism, by his grace, according to his older brother.

Hitler also liked kids and dogs, and was often very nice to his friends, Eva Braun, etc., he liked flowers and cried sometimes. So?

I am not comparing Maharaji to Hitler. I am just saying that expressing sympathy to the father of a child who was sexually abused does not change the basic problem. He is a fraud, who is out for his own material wealth at the expense of the sincerity and devotion or ordinary people. He is a liar about the past. He wrongly inserts himself into the middle of a sincere desire for love and happiness, and uses fear as a means of keeping people devoted to him. He has damamged many lives and refuses to even admit it. He also is often not a very nice, nor very moral, person, even though he was apparently nice to Abi's father.

He has been nice to lots of people, and he has been a total asshole to lots of people. I've personally seen him be very sweet, and I've personally seen him be amazingly cruel. My point is, don't get carried away because he was nice. He may have been 'nice' for completely Machiavellian reaons, or maybe he was sincere. Only he knows, but in either case it means zero.

As far as a new image, this was a private meeting. How about a satellite broadcast featuring tears over Jagdeo's victims? That might be interesting.

If Maharaji was just 'nice' all the time, and didn't inject massive amounts of fear into his followers from time to time, he would lose most of them, so I wouldn't expect a major change.

I don't think Maharaji has much in the area of self-awareness. How else could he live with himself after getting up and speaking the drivel he does? How else could he say the stupid things he does? How else could be show his face after parading around as God for years and then pretending he isn't God and never was? How could he dance around and look so ridiculous?

No, no image change, because he is a one-trick pony. Just obfuscation and trying to do whatever is necessary to hold onto the money. That's all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:40:51 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll)
Message:
I think he'll say nothing. But who knows.

More important to me is the last part of your post.

There is a huge volume of information circulating on the Jagdeo issue right now. We need to somehow catalog it. Some of it is stuff we can post on the forum, some not. But I like the idea of a list of all the reports and evidence we have. I know that sometimes something I assume Abi knows she doesn't , or she will think I know something I don't. There is just so much out there.

Here is a list of what I can report:

The incident with me and another in 1977
Abuse that was reported to me at that time
My reports to Randy 1977 and Judy ~1982
My first report on the web 1997
My letter via Michael Dettmers to M and the letter from Marcia Leitner
My talk with Judy a few days ago
I have at least 2 people who recall my telling them about telling Randy and Judy back in the late seventies/ early eighties.
Other things I am not at liberty to discuss at this time (sorry!).
Abi's first incident
Abi's first reporting of this to Jim, around 1998
Abi's first report on the web

Charnananand was advised by Abi's dad about it ( when?)

Anths reporting of Abi's abuse to police
Anths correspondence with Glen Whitaker.

Karen's report of the girl in the ashram in India.
Karen's letters to Deepak and the phone call.
Karen's report of Jagdeo holding an exalted status in EV India as late as 1998.

Katie recalls rumours of a guard
Jim Sanders recalls rumours of a guard
FOMF recalls rumours about the pedophilia

Who reported that as a Unity School teacher in Denver she saw Jagdeo was alone with kids ( that is on the website)

Rawat's meeting with Abi's dad
Valerio's meeting with Abi's dad.

These are all the things I recall being posted about. Does anyone have anything to add?

Why was Jagdeo sent from the West for good in the early 90s? What happened then?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:10:09 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll)
Message:
you forgot my notifying interpol, last week
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:15:46 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll)
Message:
The time between all these events also shows how cold
fearful and cruel rawat and his gang of liars were.
No response till he was pushed to the wall right there at
the site in australia.
He was backed into a corner.
But even then the squirming dog showed his cowardly lying.

Also needing to be mentioned was the anguish all the stonewalling was causing you and Abi.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 05:33:32 (GMT)
From: Zelda Brockovitch
Email: None
To: thread
Subject: how do you thik he'll play the jagdeo thing?(poll)
Message:
he will smell a lawsuit coming and try to avert it by getting human with the people involved and get some specially chosen people to say the right thing to the vicitms in an effort to try to reroute the mud flow away from a lawsuit.

But he will not waste time because all the while he will push his legal team to plan for the worst case scenario.-by preparing a defense and by reinforcing the great corporate fire wall-- and possibly take further steps to distance himself and his wealth from the reach of a payout.

but in the end he will allow himself or ev to settle on a good compensation for the victims. he will first offer a measly sum and then up it to what the victims want.

if he doesnt do that he knows there will be a deep and serious unsettledness in every premie heart but he knows that he will need to appear to be a man and do the right thing in order to keep on his 'mission' as he sees it.

he has made his own bed by this knowledge lite business which implies that a person can have knowledge and still function in the world.
People who function in the world while they have knowledge witll look to him with confidence to put this matter right .
he will need to act with integrity in order to retain credibility with his premies.

Z

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:42:40 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Go girl!
Message:
I have at least 2 people who recall my telling them about telling Randy and Judy back in the late seventies/ early eighties.

Way to go, Susan. This is just the kind of stuff that is going to bite Randy Prouty in the ass.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:24:54 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: He'll go to ground
Message:
After Amaroo, he'll withdraw from public life, and gradually liquidate his holdings and disappear from premie, and EV, life.

He doesn't give a fuck about spreading knowledge, and knows when to run.

Just my opinion.

John the Gambler ('you gotta know when to hold up, know when to fold up, know when to walk away, and know when to run')

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:13:23 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Interesting Speculations...
Message:
He can play this one to the hilt at Amaroo...yet, if he does, will the premies feel confirmed in their belief that he's human, has empathy, reinforcing a positive view of him? How's he going to explain it without lying? Will he give darshan? If he does, a lot of western premies starving for toe kissing may completely blow the whole issue off--easy to do when in a cult getting juju'ed out.

Or, if he does come out with it at Amaroo won't he be kind of compelled to ask for people with any knowledge of this issue to come forward? Can he even legally mention Jagdeo's name? Premies are going to come forward as time progresses. Will he be opening a can of worms in terms of the number of victims? This could completely ruin him.

As I write this I am tending to think he won't say a thing at Amaroo. I think he's going to distance the whole thing and make it a very blissful time for all.

This is what I think at the moment,
Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 01:03:28 (GMT)
From: michael donner
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Interesting Speculations...
Message:
my bet is on m saying nothing publicly about it at all. total silence...then going about his business as usual...abi's father might get an update from valario...that will be about it. end of story...got $10 to bet on the fact that he says nothing, nada publicly in australia program. any takers?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:56:38 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: The bare-faced liar will brazen it out.
Message:
Cynthia said: ''I think he's going to distance the whole thing and make it a very blissful time for all.''

I agree. He will pretend nothing happened. The inner circle premies who know about his meeting with Abi will be treated to a few in jokes about it. Like: ''You know SHE is in her mind if she has been carrying this thing around with her for 20 odd years. See that's what comes from not having faith in You Know Who.''

The market researchers and spin doctors may eventually come up with some innocuous but legally vague revsionism on his websites to counter EPO's coverage. But it will just be more of the same thing. He really is quite thick-skinned despite his ''almost'' tears in Abi's father's presence. Al Capone apparently often cried after offing his enemies. Even sociopaths can be sentimental.

But he knows nothing much will ever come of it and it is better for him to ignore the rumors than fuel them by addressing them. The faithfull will meditate their doubts away and he will carry on as usual.

I personally have seen him lie. In 1987(?) in Palm Springs we were divided up into small groups in separate rooms so that he could spend time answering our questions. A premie from Berkeley (who had been in the ashram and was high enough up in the org to be known personally by Rawat) asked him a question.

I don't remember the exact wording but I do know that this premie had recently been diagnosed with a fatal disease, AIDS, and he was sobbing and obviously frightened. He told Rawat that he was finding it hard to meditate because of his illness.

Rawat made a joke at the premie's expense and then said: ''So you can't meditate anymore. Well that's your problem. Of course you will turn out to be as evil as Atilla the Hun.'' All the premies laughed at this. I failed to get the joke unfortunately.

The following year Rawat did the same thing in Palm Springs. Again the sick premie spoke to him. This time he told Rawat that, ever since he had told him that he would become as evil as Atilla, that he had not been able to meditate at all. He broke down in front of everyone.

Rawat laughed and said: ''I never called you Atilla.''

''Yes, you did,'' said the premie.

Rawat: ''Then I'll just have to take a look at the video of last year and see if I did. But I know that I didn't so you must be lying. Ha ha ha. Next question.''

It was sickening. Rawat knows how to tell lies very well. I've seen it on other occassions. His whole website is a lie.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 14:58:07 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: The bare-faced liar will brazen it out.
Message:
Hi Pat,

I thought nothing could shock me, but what the goob said to the premie with AIDS whom you described above convinces me (again) that he has absolutely NO empathy for others. That a premie would be sobbing and looking to him for comfort and for the goob to come out with such a statement then lie about it later is downright cruel.

Maharaji seems to enjoy being cruel, and someone as narcissistic as m has no problems feeling sorry for themself. Which is what I believe he did with Abi's father. It's become very natural for him to lie. Just like breathing.

Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:25:53 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, every morning I wake up happier than
Message:
the day before just knowing that I am finally free of all the lies and deceit which were eating away at me for years.

I knew there was something wrong right from the start but, like Sandy, I believed that Rev Goodbar was god and above human morals and I put up with the bullshit but it ate a hole in my soul.

Well, I just said to Chuck and Andy yesterday I feel like a new person now. Sometimes I am so exhilirated I feel like dancing. I did not know how much of a burden on my soul all of Rev Feelgood's lies and hypocrisy was until it was gone. Free at last.

Poor old Rev Strangelove - there a special place reserved for him in hell.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 21:54:39 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Was Jagdeo one of the king-makers?
Message:
Some people have suggested that the only reason that Jagdeo was not defrocked (as were lesser mahatmas who committed lesser crimes) was because he had some sort of hold over Rawat.

Was Jagdeo one of the senior mahatmas, like Charanand and Sampuranand, who staged the coup d'etat which placed Prempal on the throne?

I understand that, while Mata Ji and her handpicked loyal followers were discussing who was to be the next guru, Charanand and Sampuranand were leading a coup. Mata Ji wanted to be named the successor but compromised with her conspirators and the outcome of that meeting was to name Satpal the successor.

Meanwhile, before Mata Ji could make her announcement, Charanand (who had his own thriving guru business before he joined forces with Hans' more successful business) and Sampuranand had already completed their coup and announced to the waiting crowd of premies that Prem would be the successor.

I understood this to be their means of retaining power. They knew that they would never be able to seize power themselves either individually or together without splitting DLM into factions so, like the barons of feudal Europe, they placed a juvenile puppet on the throne. These divine ''barons'' probably do have a hold over Prempal. Like all king-makers, they can dethrone him as easily as they once enthroned him.

Was Jagdeo one of those conspiring ''barons?''

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:28:34 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: i doubt charnanand could have had a guru biz
Message:
at the time hans passed away. Charnanand once related to me that he came to Hans at the age of 19 and became a mahatma within a very short time. Age 20 or 21 i think it was, and that he had been with Maharaji all his adult life. I don't know Charnanand's age at present, but i saw him last year in Santa Monica and talked with him casually 1 on 1, and I would guesstimate his age to be in his early 60's now. going back 30 years to his first trip to the west would make him early 30's then, so going back from 1971 to 1966, 5 years, would have made him around mid 20's--maybe 25, 26, when hans died and sant ji was put on the throne.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:23:08 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Wasn't Gyanyoganand a guru....
Message:
.... before joining Maharaji? I remember stories of him travelling by some sort of 'beam me up, Scotty' system.

John who used to believe this stuff

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 20, 2001 at 08:24:44 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Not-so-blissful Gyanyoganand memories....
Message:
I don't know, but he was my torturer for several months. He came to Spain and I was his translator, cook, and general assistant as well as community coordinator for a while. He didn't like feisty women. I tried really hard to hide my feist, but it kept wafting out like farts.

I remember trying to organize hundreds of Spanish premies to go to Millennium, and he would come into the office and say it was all too complicated, and tell me to just show him what needed to be done, and he would explain the easy way. I would humbly accept his ridiculous suggestions, and then I'd have to redo the whole transaction (like a list for Joe Natter of who was coming, that Gyanyoganand had thrown out as unnecessary, etc. etc.).

He looked like an ET, and the Spanish premies absolutely saw him as a cosmic guru, with his bald pate and bright little eyes. But he wasn't kind to me. Sometimes I would be so tired from translating and cooking that I would fall asleep in front of the room while translating his interminable, always-the-same satsang. He never expressed concern about my wellbeing or health, but just disapproval for falling asleep on the job. Jeez! No wonder I got CFS! I hadn't remembered about all that for years.

I needed to express that resentment, but I feel we were both sort of victims, actually. He was just a young dude trying to be a good God rep. At least he got out and split when the going got tough. I wonder if he's with BBJ now or what. Anyone know?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:15:17 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: Dogs bark whilst he halts by them ..
Message:
who're the dogs ? Does Rawat halt from compassion ,or from his limp ?

Only time will tell , but the safe bets are on the limp .

The Barons can't dethrone him unless they can set themselves up as King , & Rawat's lawyers won't let that happen .

I'm afraid it's up to the peasants to foment the revolt .

Having said that , your speculations are my own & thanks for filling in the gaps that make them more plausable .

All the best : Pat Dorrity .

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:07:43 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Bin: ''The Barons can't dethrone him unless.... ''
Message:
Hi Pat,

I never really thought it out to the point where they actually might dethrone him probably because, for the reasons you stated, it never seemd like a possibility. However, I think they have had a psychological hold over him because of their placing him in power.

This may now be wearing a bit thin and Rawat may throw Jagdeo to the dogs at the gate. But I doubt it. He may finally ''retire'' Jagdeo without too much scandal. The dirt on Jagdeo would splash onto rawat so he will hush it up as best as he can.

But this too could blow up in his face. If Rawat ''retires'' Jagdeo without scandal, without explaining why or without in some way making it known that Jagdeo is disgraced, Jagdeo could go back to India and dish the dirt on Rawat.

PS I'm still pissed, Pat, in the USA way (though,like you, I enjoy the UK way too) but I'm not mad which in the USA means infuriated, heatedly angry. Being pissed is cooler and more indignant. This meeting of Abi's father with Rawat has really irked me. To me it just confirms his irresponsibility.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 08:38:32 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: PatC
Subject: thanks to kelly's call to india, jagdeo can't
Message:
peaceably return to his priveleged position there anymore. Remember, he has been confronted by Deepak with the website accounts and decided the heat was too much. If Deepak knows(which he does, and kelly can reinforce it), he can inform one and all about Jagdeo and make him a pariah in DLM india and the indian diaspora.

Kelly ought to be keeping Deepak current with developments here on the site since their last contact. If Maharaji does defrock Jagdeo and banish him, Deepak ought to know so he can reinforce the banishment in India and keep it common knowledge what jagdeo does to choice little girls, so that parents can protect their kids from him.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 20:26:53 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org. uk
To: janet
Subject: thanks to kelly's call to india, jagdeo can't
Message:
Hi janet,
I have sent Deepak more e-mails updating him on the information coming to light on this forum. He is not replying. I think it very likely he is fully informed on recent developments.
Just to reassure you, I keep reminding him of my concerns about the young girl in the ashram and possible others, and also re-iterating how concerned we all are that wherever Jagdeo is, and I'm sure Deepak knows or can find out, that he should not be in a position to abuse children. I have been putting this more strongly now that M has acknowledged the issue by meeting with Abi's father.
Just to remind you, here is an excerpt from my letter after our phone conversation.

'I would still like some reassurance that Jagdeo is no longer in a position to commit any more paedophile acts. I don’t know what the law is in India about this, or how much protection there is for children. I suspect it may well be less than in this country. Perhaps you could give me some information on this? I do know that many people are also anxious to know whether any measures have been taken to safeguard children in the community where he is now living. Can you do anything about this? Or find out?'

Deepak has not answered this, I just hope he's listening. If not, I'll just have to SHOUT LOUDER!
Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 14:12:48 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: And another videoclip on EPO
Message:
Anybody else couldn't take it

More to come .....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:55:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I haven't seen pieces of Donald Trump, Bill Gates,
Message:
Larry Ellison or any of the other rich and famous all over the place, and they have way more money than the huckle-buck huckster of Amarscroo. I'm still waiting for them to ...blow apart in a million pieces in a second.'

LOL, that is rich, and not in the way that old hucky intended.

--f saying thanks for the laugh

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:51:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Yeah, Francesca, but what about Robert Maxwell?
Message:
Wasn't that the name of the English financier who jumped overboard? That's not exactly a million pieces but it's something. And then there's that Dupont guy, the one who flipped out and shot the Olympic athlete that was training on his estate. No, I know, no million pieces but still, how'd YOU like to go to jail just because you were super wealthy? So, to be fair, Maharaji's got a point there.

And lucky for us that he's so open about it all. Think of all the people who otherwise would have gotten incredibly wealthy. Think what might have happened to them without his warning. Maybe that's what he meant by his promise to bring world peace, he planned to save us all from getting rich enough that we'd actually blow into a million pieces.

Oh yeah, there's that really, really fat guy in Monty Python's Meaning of Life. You know, the one who has that last wafer-thin mint. He actually does blow up into a million pieces and he looked pretty rich .....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:42:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Excellent work as always, JM
Message:
How ludicrous, huh? Might as well be any cult you can imagine. In other words, Heaven's Gate, the Solar Temple, these groups have nothing on m.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:44:28 (GMT)
From: Kaj
Email: None
To: J-M and everyone
Subject: how arrogant little Rawat is!
Message:
nice clip, J-M!
Can't believe how arrogant little Rawat is there - 'it is not luxurious at all /---/ any other person would blow up in a split second ...' What bullshit!

BTW, I found two tapes among my belongings: a Q&A session from Montreal, May 2, 1977, 'Hour of crazyness' (I was there and remember it quite well), and another, a satsang from Brisbane, also May 2, but 1981.

I could borrow them if someone is interested to transcribe them and make an analysis for EPO. J-M? Joe? Anyone else?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 19:27:47 (GMT)
From: kev
Email: None
To: Kaj
Subject: how arrogant little Rawat is!
Message:
Thanks J-M and thank you Kaj, for the translation. I played it lots of times, but found it hard to understand what Rawat was saying. Maybe you could put some subtitles on it J-M? Or is it just me?

'it is not luxurious at all /---/ any other person would blow up in a split second ...' Blow up in a split second.

Now thats something I would like to see m do...

Thanks again Jaen-Michel, keep up the good work.

Kev.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:54:29 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Shades of M and Amaroo? warning: ruff
Message:
Buenos Aires - While a member of the 'Lineamiento Universal Superior' (L.U.S. -- Superior Universal Alignment) cult is being accused of crimes against children, the cult's leader, Valentina de Andrade, is also under suspicion. She is believed to be living in Argentina, according to investigators in this country's capital.

In the city of Altamira, State of Para, 13 children were raped, with their genitalia mutilated for what appear to be ritual satanic purposes, and then stabbed to death. Physician Anisio Ferreira de Souza, an alleged member of the L.U.S. sect, is among the accused and is currently in jail. He is also under suspicion of having created an organization dedicated to murdering minors to steal their vital organs, and of having committed crimes in the states of Parana, Goias and Espiritu Santo.

Judge Luis Ernane Ferreira Malto, of 3rd Crimilan Court in Altamira, mandated preventive custody for other parties suspected of being involved--among them another physician, a former corporal in the military police, and Valentina de Andrade herself. 'As of today, they shall be hunted throughout the country and even abroad,' stated the judge when issuing the preventive custody decree.

In 1992, Brazilian justice investigated Valentina and her group due to the disappearance of a child in the island of Guaratuba, in the southern state of Parana, where another children had become a victim to ritual crime. Valentina and her followers avoided prosecution when suspicions were proven to be inconsistent. From that moment on, the sect ceased all public operations and its leader left Brazil for the city of Londrina in Parana. Taking up residence in Buenos Aires, she was followed only by a few faithful adepts, having been deserted by hundreds of followers who had become aware of the psychological manipulation and economic exploitation to which they had been subjected under the Brazilian's leadership.

While former members who denounced these abuses testified to the non-existence of ritual crime or the kidnapping of children by Valentina de Andrade, they did accuse her of having commited 'coercive persuasion' after forcing a couple to turn over their baby daughter to a childless couple, and forcing other couples to leave their children with grandparents or other guardians in order to 'leave the planet' aboard her spaceship. These children were believed to be 'negative energies' by Valentina, who advised that they be left behind. Meanwhile, she portrayed herself as a lofty cosmic entity of 'light, love and truth' who had become incarnate on Earth to perform a mission.

Valentina's preching started in 1981 after having received allegedly extraterrestrial messages through her former husband, Argentinean national Roberto Olivera, her accomplice in the sect until 1987. Shortly after, Valentina embarked upon her mission to spread the information she had supposedly received from the cosmic beings. This task is apparently pursued only by a few former members of her group, after having separated themselves from Valentina. A confidential source says the woman's 'abuses betrayed the mission, using her extraterrestrial-imparted knowledge for her benefit and not for the common good, for which reason the teachings must be purified from her distortions and rescued from the ridicule she created by her ravings.'

While Brazilian authorities sought Valentina de Andrade in the country, hoping to finde her in Sao Paulo, sources knowledgeable on UFOs in Argentina claim that L.U.S.'s leader is spending her 70 years of age in Buenos Aires under fair economic conditions, without working and relying on the earnings of her followers. She changes residences frequently and has not denied herself a trip to Las Vegas among other ostentatious ways of fulfilling her 'mission on Earth'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:39:28 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Everyone
Subject: Charanand Giving no-lije in Sydney
Message:
He is staying at Mosman (or was). At least there has been two no-liji sessions in the last few days. Wasn't told the numbers, neither I could get an exact figure on how many mellons are going to Amaroo. But it looks like there are few premies being called on to do, you guessed it 'PARTICIPATION'. Appears to be something happening at Amaroo in May 'after the event', anyway, the whole thing is hush hush and very secretive and no one wants to open his/her mouth. Someone I know is getting very close to gugu hahaji, but does not want to tell me, shit. Looks like hahaji is being invited to Sydney, fuck. I may go if he comes. Been trying to sneek in a camara in, donno if it will work, will find out. Problem this person is very inquisitive and want to know why this why that. Tried to sound as inocent as can be, but I think the bottom line is that am a suspect. (am inocent really, belive me)

Was told to contact boldi, but I may send a hello message to Belkis. Maybe invite her for cappacino and greek cookies (i love greek cookies).

So there you go. Been invited to go to Amaroo again and HAVING BLOODY HARD TIME WITH IT. Just in case you're wondering.

Well I was told that maybe I walked away from hahaji because I got distanced from him. That maybe somewhere inside this mellon that I carry on my shoulder, just maybe, there is a glimer of hope. Maybe if I saw him once again, something will happen. Well fuck again. Been looking at his pictures all day today, some very recent and must say that all I could see is one ugly looking indian(not even that) bastared dressed up in a Jilabiah and making faces. Sorry bud, but the only way that am gonna sit down is if you chain me to a chair. I don't think that there is a way in the world that I will have you as a master again.

Well hahaji, am really sorry, but I don't think that this will work. Now I know you read this shit that am telling you, so there. What can I tell you. You basically blew it, well at least with me. What concerns me is that I wonder if you care? Like does it hurt you to see people walking away from you, or don't you give a flying pussy?

Well mister master, as long as you live in your ivory tower, leafing through your greenbacks and never bother to come down to earth to face the music, then that is all you're getting from me.

I have asked you in the past wether or not you wanted to discuss this in private, but since you have not bothered to reply, then all I can say to you is to stick it up yours. However, am open to negotiations as are all me mates in this forum. Well consider that a personal message.

As for you EV boofheads, please send my best wishes to Belkis and give her my e-mail, I would like to see if she can persue me to change my mind. Warrning, am thick as a brick. dah da da da dah.

Love to all

Salam-undetermined

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:42:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: If it's free, go (but take your own koolaid)
Message:
Salam,

It really would be so cool to get an insider outsider's report if you were actually thinking of going. As for Maharaji's looks, don't you think that what he's lost in his incredibly gorgeous youthful beauty, he's made up in wisdom and character? It's written all over his face although you might need a smart card to see it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 06:55:39 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Easy said hard to do.
Message:
Everytime I think of going I get some sort of paralysis. The gray matter jams up. Not sure what is going on.

The person that invited me is really lovely and honest, so I don't want to abuse their trust and cause them any undue problems. Today is my last day to make up my mind and I think I will stay in Sydney. Yes I know you guys are dying for it, but I've had some bad shit happening to me in the last 2 years and it appears that am not ready or strong enough for this. Sorry. I promise if he does come to Sydney I will consider it thorowghly (fuck, how do you right it). Am really very busy for the next 2 weeks and can't afford the time.

In the mean time I will be extra nice to the person when he/she comes back and see what I can learn. He/she is leaving to do 'participation', EV is paying for the person (by not charging him/her).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:02:37 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Charanand Giving no-lije in Sydney
Message:
Hey Salam,

I kinda want you to go because it is so entertaining to read accounts of people who attend these events. I don't know why. It just fills a deep need for hysterical laughter.

I don't want you to go unless it seems like a fun thing for you - no not even for me.

But I must admit that recently, after not even dreaming of going near a program, and not seeing MJ for 17+ years, I am curious. I have heard that he has jowls. I hope you sneak your camera in.

From across the globe, xx Katie Darling

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:04:45 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: KD, am really suffering here you know
Message:
and that it is no bull. I mean really.

Here I am trotting upon the path of liberation and I get a side walk call to stop. It is so entiecing. Am being railroaded into it. Like being called by a sexy blondi(must say am weak on the last one), and it's getting me worried. Looks like hahaji has bored a deeper hole in my head than I thought and the infection needs treatement. You do that sort of stuff don't you. Well matie, I'll go if you want me, but if I flip you're in troubles:)

What's a jowls?

yeh, EV monitors, dream on.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:00:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: you wont get sucked in. go and prove it.
Message:
you dont have to stay the whole week, do you? can you dare to go just long enough to see for yourself how deep is your gross out?
when i went in april 2000 i couldnt sit still, couldnt concentrate, couldnt wait for him to shut up. and i had been awake all night with excitement at seeing him just a walk away from my house.
if you accept, how will you get there and get back home?

as for cameras--go to a spy store and get those tiny disguised ones that look like pens or cigarette lighters an so forth.

besides, dont you need to test out whether you can crash the smartcard reader at the gate with your sabotage chip?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:28:46 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: janet, janet
Message:
I don't need to prove anything, neither to myself or to anyone. We all know what will happen if we jump in hot lava. Like I said, am pretty busy and can't afford the time. If he comes to sydney I may consider it. As for smart cards, I don't need them, I have a secret entrance that no one knows about :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 02:06:53 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: salam
Subject: Jowls
Message:
When the baby gets to be middle-aged but hasn't lost his baby-fat, gravity takes over and those chubby little cheeks that grandma loved to pinch settle around the jaw-line and meander down the neck. It's not pretty.

Here's what the dictionary says:

slack flesh, as a dewlap, wattle, or the pendulous part of a double chin associated with the lower jaw or throat, also, the cheek meat of a hog.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 04:02:54 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Jowls - the cheek meat of a hog.
Message:
Lovely phrase. This hog we're talking about really has begun to look like the greedy little piggy that he is. His ugly soul has made his face equally ugly. His publicity photos are still fancied up but seeing him in the flesh and projected onto the video screens above him 100 times larger than life he is very ugly. Marlon Brando is beautiful in comparison. Rawat looks like a Mafia boss. Brando simply looks like an old debauchee.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 03:41:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Like Paul McCartney? (nt)
Message:
ffffff
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 12:12:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jagdeo Victims
Message:
Hi,

I had a letter from another Jagdeo victim this morning. This time it was a young man, who was sexually assaulted by Jagdeo when he was six years old. He also told me that, in the same sessions, he thinks that Jagdeo assaulted two other young girls, aged around five and six years old at the time.

I know these alleged victims, and will talk to them in person. If it looks like the allegations are solid- and at the moment I've no reason to doubt the person who wrote to me, then I'll encourage the victims to report these crimes to the police.

Anth, trying to do the right thing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:12:48 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Jagdeo Victims--write to me anth--
Message:
jai_choix@webtv.net
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:14:27 (GMT)
From: E. Windsor
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The children are starting to scream
Message:
Someone put a hand over their mouths a long time ago and then one by one they bit, and tore, and screamed out 'ABUSE!'

This began with a child on a throne and it will end with the screaming of children.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:51:03 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: This might be useful
Message:
Is there a picture anywhere, of Jagdeo from the seventies? The reason I ask is that I can't remember which Mahatma he was and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

I keep thinking Jagdeo was one of the young bald Mahatmas who was very silly. There was one guy who kept going, 'Jesus, Jesus, Jesus' in mockery of the Christians in his satsangs. I thought his name was Jagdeo. I think it ended in 'deo'.

If a seventies pic of Jagdeo is put on the net for all to see, then it might jog people's memory. It would mine. I know already that some people have mixed Jagdeo up with Rajaswar, who was also one of the older Mahatmas and used to be a judge, I believe. If I can't remember which person Jagdeo was then how less able would be someone who was five or six at that time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 19:19:54 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: there has been a pic on ex premie org for a long
Message:
time, click on the main page (above), then the pedophile issue, you'll see it
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:51:13 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: I know but that's a RECENT pic
Message:
And there's no pics of him from the seventies, when he would probably have a shaved head and be wearing robes?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 10:10:28 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: no dave. he was never bald and saffroned.
Message:
jagdeo always looked exactly like that from the first day he came to the west. he was a householder, like rajeswar, and so never could take the monk vows of renunciation. householders kept their hair and their western dress, and when relaxing at home, wore whites rather than saffron. white dhoti's around the waist and either western casual shirts or kurta's above the waist. I waited on both jagdeo and rajeswar at 1560 Race in Denver, cooking with them in their upstairs kitchen, singing in their room and listening to their stories.

they both wore whites, not saffron, and never had shaved heads. ever. householders--married with families--could not take those vows--unless they renounced their worldly life and became monks. these two never did.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:31:59 (GMT)
From: Gary Epton
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: He has one lazy eye
Message:
Either that or it is a crazed eye or glaucoma-ed - if you saw him face-to-face you'd remember (creepy)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 01:05:38 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Gary Epton
Subject: ....and one evil eye for keeping on the kids. NT
Message:
k
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:05:20 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: AJW
Subject: Jagdeo Victims
Message:
Dear Anth,
Oh No! Six years old, how awful.
It's not as if we didn't know that there must be more, many more, out there who have suffered at the hands of Jagdeo.
It makes me more certain than ever that my suspicions and concerns about the incidents I witnessed in the ashram in Delhi are justified.
I have written to Deepak again about this and offered to help. Surely, now that M has met with Abi's father and acknowledged the truth of her situation, our concerns about all the other victims MUST be addressed.
I am also taking other steps to get my concerns heard.
Anth, you are doing the right thing, and count me in for any help you need. And thank you.
Kelly
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:00:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Jagdeo Victims
Message:
Kelly, I'm not so sure Maharaji has 'acknowledged the truth of [Abi's] situation.' All I've heard him do is give sympathy. Have you heard anything more?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:27:55 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Jagdeo Victims
Message:
Hey Joe, (sorry I can't help but address you that way!)

Though you might ask me where I'm going with that gun in my hand!
I'm feeling quite militant at the moment!

I believe we are witnessing a really significant breakthrough. The wall of silence has been breached. I think that M's acceptance and sympathy and apologies to Abi and her Dad, is a total acknowledgement that she was wronged. He has ordered EV ( who he has nothing to do with!) to sort it out for her. He has agreed to her requests that Jagdeo be brought to justice, that there should be a public apology and that she should recieve damages. In that, I know no more than you or anyone else who has been carefully reading this forum.

Personally, I want more, and I am fighting for more. I think there should be a really thorough investigation into every move that paedophile has made. Because of my own involvement in India and what I witnessed there, I feel a sense of duty to follow this through.

No matter what we may think of M, he has taken an irrevocable step here. He has committed to see justice done. and I, for one will hold him to it.

And , of course there's stuff I can't talk about here. Contact me offline.
Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:31:37 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: I think you are exaggerating
Message:
I think that M's acceptance and sympathy and apologies to Abi and her Dad, is a total acknowledgement that she was wronged. He has ordered EV ( who he has nothing to do with!) to sort it out for her. He has agreed to her requests that Jagdeo be brought to justice, that there should be a public apology and that she should recieve damages.

Kelly, I don't think he went as far as you think he did. What do you mean 'M's acceptance?' What do you mean 'apologies?' I haven't seen any, except the promise that Elan Vital, and not Maharaji, will make some public sympathy statement. What do you mean there is a 'total acknowledgement that she was wronged,' and by whom? And to suggest Elan Vital is sorting it out 'for her' is also stretching. When did you hear Abi was to receive 'damages?'

Have we been reading the same stuff?

Also, see my thread re 'what actually happened?' above.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:04:49 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Jagdeo Victims
Message:
Hi Anth,

Thanks for doing so much...this is very tough stuff do deal with.

I've been expecting more victims to come forward. This sickens me. Is there some sort of victim's of crime advocacy organization in the UK? I mention this because once a victim reports the abuse to the police, they are very vulnerable to any legal system. They must be emotionally prepared to face what could be a long road of legal proceedings.

In the US most if not all states have advocates (in VT, they work for the state prosecutors' offices) and are trained to assist a victim of any physical crime, not just sex offenses, in order to help them make it through this process. These advocates accompany victims to depositions, etc., as a means of personal support. Sometimes there are funds available if the person cannot afford counseling, if they want/need it.

If/when Jagdeo ever makes it into the criminal justice system, I'd be curious who'd foot the bill for the defense lawyer. In any case, it's the defense lawyer who could easily rake these victims over the coals...it's very tough.

I also believe that Maharaji has known about this since the first complaint was made. I have no doubts about it. I think he's so self-absorbed, uneducated, and narcissistic, it's easy for me to believe he just wouldn't care about the children of premies or any child who has been abused by Jagdeo.

I am so sorry for these people. This is very, very difficult stuff for the victims to deal with. Unfortunately, the victims themselves are the only ones who can take action and follow through. I hope they have the courage.

Thanks again, Anth...you are doing the right thing.

Love,
Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:17:06 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Defense lawyers for Jagdeo
Message:
Cynthia said

'If/when Jagdeo ever makes it into the criminal justice system, I'd be curious who'd foot the bill for the defense lawyer. In any case, it's the defense lawyer who could easily rake these victims over the coals...it's very tough..'

Does anyone know any defense lawyers who could volunteer in disguise?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:32:00 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Katie Darling
Subject: Good One, Katie.... n/t
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:25:28 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth
Message:
Anth,

The more I read about this, the more absurd I find it to believe that Maharaji knowingly allowed a flaming pedophile to perpetrate sick crimes under his personal direction while representing him and Knowledge all over the world, and upon the children of premies besides. Reports from various sources indicate that he relieved many other mahatmas from their duties with dispatch for much less. Something does not add up here, and if the powers that be can hold off demonizing Mr. Rawat for a moment, it might be more just and fair to look deeper.

It did happen on his watch however. And that should still be dealt with sooner or later, sooner the better.

Seems like even if this issue gets resolved, the EPO archives still have many bones to pick clean with him, so this is just the tip of the iceberg.

What say you Anth, do you want reconciliation or do you just want to expose the dirt and leave it at that? I am curious.

Somebody asked me if I am a premie, an ex or what. I never did like labels...that adhesive stuff ruins your clothes....

Sandy

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:01:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: What do I want.
Message:
Hi Sandy,

I find myself in an unpleasant situation with all this. Believe me, I'd be much happier if I'd never heard of Jagdeo. However, Jagdeo has left an awful mess of suffering behind him. God knows how many victims are out there who we don't know about, still suffering.

My aim is very simple. It is to help them. I want to help the victims do, or achieve, whatever will make them feel better and come to terms with the crimes that they have suffered.

My only beef with Maharaji about this, is that as the leader of the cult, he was responsible for the actions of his Mahatmas. He obviously didn't carry out this responsibility properly. The reports of him being told, and the subsequent non-action is also disturbing. But this is not my main concern.

As I said earlier, my role in this is to help the victims.

Or to put it another way, I'm trying to help clear the shit up that Jagdeo has left around the world.

I know you feel as strongly about this as I do Sandy, and I appreciate your continued support.

Anth walking the walk.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 12:57:49 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: If all you want is to help the victims...
Message:
then you are truly a premie (lover) of truth as I see it, in the spirit of the Good Samaritan, who Christ said knew the Secret even though he could neither read nor write and had no theological learning, but his heart was in the right place (bingo!) and he stopped to help an injured traveler on the way. Names and labels and words can be so confusing and ambiguous, it is wise to watch the body language and actions of a person to see where they are really at.

What has been particularly disappointing to me - and I am sure to you - is that you were once so trusted that you hung out with his own kids and taught them, and you were trusted with kids at the schools. With that much trust invested in you, I am surprised that you have not been given the respect or a willing and interested ear about all this.

There are so many convolutions now swirling about here that even if this matter got taken care of - better late than never - there would still be much to sort.

Sandy

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:31:06 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Anth
Subject: Correction...
Message:
'The more I read about this, the more absurd I find it to believe that Maharaji knowingly allowed a flaming pedophile to perpetrate sick crimes WHILE under his personal direction AND while representing him and Knowledge all over the world, and upon the children of premies besides.' -Sandy
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:15:25 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: It could have happened this way
Message:
I think Maharaji passed the buck onto someone else to clean up the mess. Also, he didn't want to fire Jagdeo because for some reason, Jagdeo has some sort of psychological hold over Maharaji.

So I think Maharaji hoped the problem would just go away. That's what comes of solving problems Maharaji's way. Ignore it and pass it on to other people, people who are his terrified sycophants.

Consider the people in the know who knew Jagdeo was abusing children. How would they report back to Maharaji that his Mahatma was still abusing children? What would they say to Maharaji?

'Well we think the problem's gone away and Jagdeo's OK now.'

would be their likely advice to him. First we have the incompetence of people not having the guts to tell Maharaji the whole nasty truth. We have the abused children who premies will not believe because Jagdeo is such a high soul. (Witness Abi's account)

Then we have Maharaji who just wants to forget about the situation and carry on playing with his expensive toys and raking in the money. Small wonder then, that there was a breakdown in communication. And that is what I believe happened.

Also, Maharaji didn't have the guts to confront Jagdeo himself, for reasons I've mentioned above.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 16:30:11 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It could have happened this way
Message:
Of course the implied has never been said Sir Dave - Maybe M was a vicitm if J was around when he was a little kid, I have trouble believing that all the attmpts that Abi made were never passed on or heard.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:28:30 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: It could have happened this way
Message:
Dave,

I just read your 'could have' post above about how you think it went down. I respect your right to the cynicism. I am not as cynical at this point. Not that cynicism is good or bad. No judgement intended.

Maybe some of the ex-premies here are a remnant of his true inner circle in exile due to the 'terrified synchophants' who have surrounded him and allowed good folks here to fall through the cracks of DLM/EV? Upper middle management is usually the strata that fucks up the works out of fear, ambition, greed for power, etc. You know the drill. Alot of the input here seems pretty right-on information about how to be straighter with other people who got hurt? Ever thought of that one, Sir Knight? Maybe we need to introduce more knighthood and chilvary to the declared followers and knowers of God.

Sandy

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:45:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: More junk from Sandy's Myth Machine
Message:
Upper middle management is usually the strata that fucks up the works out of fear, ambition, greed for power, etc.

Oh yeah? You just make shit up, don't you? As IF you know what you're talking about.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 21:54:01 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Myth machine?
Message:
As IF, oh samuri lawrrior!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 22:00:17 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Myth machine?
Message:
Sandy,

If the beliefs you espouse are not myths, could you please give the evidence for your beliefs please? In fact, I'm not sure what your beliefs are, so could you please clearly state your beliefs, with supporting evidence. Thanks.

Isn't this a reasonable request?

Faith is like trust, worth trying out until the object of your faith or trust lets you down. Then you drop it.

Don't you agree?

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 23:15:14 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Evidence?
Message:
Sandy,

If the beliefs you espouse are not myths, could you please give the evidence for your beliefs please? In fact, I'm not sure what your beliefs are, so could you please clearly state your beliefs, with supporting evidence. Thanks.

Isn't this a reasonable request?

*Not in this venue with this audience.

Faith is like trust, worth trying out until the object of your faith or trust lets you down. Then you drop it.

*Not always. I have had some pretty bad shit happen to me in my life, but I still believe in a loving, forgiving and merciful God. Go figure.

*Your attempts to corner me with words is so transparent I could use them for a full sized sliding glass door.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 17:46:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Upper middle management?
Message:
Sandy,

What do you base your statement on? What studies? Many times it is other levels that screw things up. Akers, who was stuck in the mud, kept IBM from progressing and upper management at Sears screwed up by not wanting to compete with themselves.

Besides that, Elan Vital is not your usual organization, not at all. Rawat has more dictatorial control than most CEOs. Elan Vital is more comparable to a dictatorship. Remember what Rawat said, 'I don't believe in democracy.' I remember a story of someone trying to offer an idea to Rawat, Rawat yelled at him 'You should listen to my ideas!' (or something close to that). Someone like that wouldn't let middle management run things.

And how does your statement apply to the Jagdeo issue anyway? Are you implying that Rawat wasn't told about it at all?

I don't believe it, but for the sake of argument, let's assume that Rawat didn't know about what Jagdeo was doing. Well first of all, that blows the image of him being some all-knowing enlightened God-in-a-bod to smitherines. Second, it was his responsibility to know. There were rumors about what Jagdeo was doing, it was reported to high level honchos, and he didn't know? What would that indicate? Something would have to be seriously wrong with the entire picture, and he the dominant player. It reminds me of Reagan and the Iran-contra affair. Whether Reagan knew or not, it looks very bad.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:54:50 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: reconcilliation.
Message:
In which way Sandy.

For having someone working for him claming to be spritual figure that turn on little children and rape them when no one is looking? Why don't you ask the victims?

We have been through this before, but just in case you forgot, JMKhan made a list of things as to why 'I' object to maharaji. Please read it.

At one point or another you are really going to have to make a quatum change. Well at least you are among people that can understand your position (though some continue to ridicule it). but am not talking about you in person, this is a general statement for anyone out there looking in.

Meanwhile peace and pizza (seeing that Jim doesn't like lentils)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:54:01 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You find it 'silly or ridiculous'?
Message:
That is what the dictionary says absurd means.
Heavens to betsy Sanford, I think you are tiptoeing into
overly strong and unsyncronistic words here to describe
our lord.

Well darn it, I also find it 'silly and ridiculous to believe that Maharaji knowingly allowed a flaming pedophile.......'

I think Jim would be shocked to see this bold step away from discreet terminology.

Usually I would only use that kind of talk to describe, oh,
ET's.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 15:16:05 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: You are fishing for a fluke, and I don't mean fish
Message:
That is what the dictionary says absurd means. Heavens to betsy Sanford, I think you are tiptoeing into overly strong and unsyncronistic words here to describe our lord. -bill

bill,

Why are you misrepping what I said? For what purpose? I was describing as absurd the notion that Maharaji would ever condone, allow or knowlingly look the other way while Jagdeo went around the world in the name of Knowledge and directly repping Maharaji,
while at the same time being an active pedophile. That is what I think is absurd, bill. Got it now? I think there are missing pieces to this story and theories have become reality for some.

He may like money alot and everything it can buy, and he may really enjoy the good life, but I make a statement of faith here and I say that he would not knowingly allow Jagdeo to roam the earth in his wake molesting children. The fact that it happened is beyond debate, and that the matter cries out for some sort of sincere closure is not denied. I think that the term 'to harbor' implies that the harborer knows what he is harboring. In this case, I now question that theory. Pieces are missing, the whole truth is not out yet from some sides of it, and by that I mean the middle people like Randy and Susan and Charanand and others who got messages...not Susan, Abi or anyone who was a victim. It just doesn't feel like all the facts are on the table yet, though much has been told. Now that more of the story is coming to light, who knows how the picture will look and who is in it when the last brushstroke has been applied to complete it? For now, I refuse to accept that Maharaji had anything to do with knowingly allowing Jagdeo to run such an outrageous trip. that would require irrefutable evidence and I am not aware of any to date.
Sandy

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:44:08 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: What about the manslaughter wobble dance?
Message:
Sandy said: ''For now, I refuse to accept that Maharaji had anything to do with knowingly allowing Jagdeo to run such an outrageous trip.''

A man who can leave the scene of a crime and let someone else take the blame for it, as happened when Rawat killed the cyclist in India, is capable of all manner of cowardly, dishonest and irresponsible behavior.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 18:30:47 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: What's wrong with this picture?
Message:
Again, not that I believe it, but let's suppose Rawat didn't know. What kind of fucked up situation is that? A truly enlightened person would insist on being told of any wrongdoings that were happening under their watch. (In reality, Rawat was and is guilty of many wrongdoings himself.) Assuming they didn't tell him, why? Why wouldn't they have told him? Here they were, 'devotees' of the supposed 'Perfect Master', and they don't report a heinous crime like this to him even when the victims are his own 'devotees'? That's a pretty absurd picture isn't it?

This reminds me of being in the ashram and wondering why, if 'Guru Maharaj Ji' knew everything, was he allowing premies to be treated so poorly (sleeping on the basement floor, wearing worn-out underwear, etc.). Now I understand, he's doesn't know everything, and what he knew about he didn't care about.

Here's another thing, if Rawat were a good and insightful person, wouldn't he be able to tell that Jagdeo is a creep? I remember Jagdeo staying in an ashram I lived in, I didn't like him at all, something about him seemed very off, but I couldn't analyse it, I was too brainwashed. I also remember the 'powerful satsang' that was projected from his mouth at 'festivals', which translates to 'he yelled a lot'. He was very 'strong' about the guru is God and greater that God thing. So I think Rawat had something to lose if he got rid of Jagdeo, and it would have looked very bad for Rawat if it got out that this 'Mahatma' was in reality a pedophile. That would have got people thinking.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 00:18:44 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: G
Subject: There is no way randy would keep this from rawat..
Message:
sdafa
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:36:52 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: G
Subject: What's wrong with this picture?
Message:
Right G, Absolutely right,
That's whats wrong with the picture. and something is terribly wrong.
Very good point. There's something very FISHY here.
Kelly
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 17:24:42 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: ask Jim, I cant read you.......nt
Message:
asdgasd
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:12:40 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: sjimsander@aol.com
To: AJW
Subject: Thanks for doing the right thing, Anth...
Message:
It must be tough to hear more of these things, especially since you are a parent and former teacher, and personally knew these kids.

I have e-mailed EV and left phone messages for Kathie Thomas which have never been returned.
If you read my letters from a few weeks ago, you can see that EV never once mentioned any interest in the jagdeo situation from the Denver Unity School.
When I mentioned that to them again in the final letter, I never got a response!

I guess that shows how much interest they really have in getting to the bottom of this.

I have a friend who did security around jagdeo at that time-he never saw him do anything, but was under strict orders to not let jagdeo out of his sight or to let him do anything wierd.
I'm not sure if he would make a statement to that effect or not, but I can ask him.

I agree, an international law suit would be their worst nightmare, but I also think that perhaps the threat of that may be the only thing that would make them fully participate in an investigation.

Thanks for your efforts, I know it's tough to hear this stuff...

JS

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:08:23 (GMT)
From: Katie Darling
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Here it is! A Jagdeo watcher...
Message:
I had just remembered, below, that each community had one - which proves that he was known to be a pedophile. Otherwise, why do you have someone to watch him around kids?

In his post above, Jim Sander says that he actually knew one of these people. Which means it's true, and that there are more. Let's find them. Let's challenge EV to find them. Now this seems to me to be strong evidence of complicity. Right, you lawyers?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 20:03:41 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: karen@ringrose.org.uk
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Thanks for doing the right thing, Anth...
Message:
Hi Jim,
It seems from several posts I have read recently, including Katie Darling's, that several people remember Jagdeo having a special guard or minder. What the heck does that mean? Well it's pretty damn clear to me. They, whoever 'they' are, were aware that the man had a problem, and they thought they could contain it by being watchful. BUT, who alerted them to this, WHO KNEW?

It's obvious now that several people in EV, and probably, but not certainly, the master himself, knew that this mahatma (great soul) was interfering with young children. WHY was he guarded? and not sent packing like so many others. Why has he been tucked away in a corner of the Delhi ashram treated with respect and with several young girls at his beck and call? Did he have a minder there? I think not!
The whole thing smacks of a big cover up but I, for one, am determined to get to the bottom of it.

Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 19:17:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Thanks for doing the right thing, Anth...
Message:
I have a friend who did security around jagdeo at that time-he never saw him do anything, but was under strict orders to not let jagdeo out of his sight or to let him do anything wierd.
I'm not sure if he would make a statement to that effect or not, but I can ask him.

This is very important, Jim. If he was told to 'watch' Jagdeo, that likely means Elan Vital knew about the reports of abuse. The thing is, though, if your friend didn't know why he was supposed to watch Jagdeo, Jagdeo could get get away with doing what he did. Did he sleep in the same room with Jagdeo? Did he really follow him around 24 hours a day? What constitutes something 'weird?'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 19:32:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, Jim's post is VERY important...
Message:
You hit the nail on the head, Joe.

Jim: do you know the premie's name doing security? Is he contactable?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 17, 2001 at 13:18:42 (GMT)
From: Jim Sander
Email: None
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Thanks for doing the right thing, Anth...Also....
Message:
Anth-

has anyone made a list of Unity School teachers and staff, either in England or from the Denver school?

I remember probably half a dozen names from denver..

JS

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 09:07:40 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Jim Sander
Subject: Unity School Teachers
Message:
Hi Jim,

It now seems that Jagdeo abused children in Cornwall after Unity School was closed. A large community of premies stayed in the area, and the building was taken over by the cult and used for various different things. I think this was the period Jagdeo was down there.

I know several of the teachers from Unity School Denver,as I spent a couple of weeks there with them after Tuscon. At one point they invited me to teach there. I'd like to get back in touch with them, if you have any of their email addresses, maybe you could connect us.

Thanks Jim, (and everyone else) for your support. It makes a difference.)

Anth.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 16:09:17 (GMT)
From: Robert Setton
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Good luck Anth
Message:
...though I doubt you'll need it seeing as you have a good line of contacts and information already. Your integrity is obvious and laudable. No doubt you will get to the bottom (or top!) of this absurd situation.
regards,
Robert
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 18, 2001 at 17:16:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robert Setton
Subject: Am I right, Robert? You'd like m to fall?
Message:
Robert,

Am I right in thinking that you're one of the premies who'd actually like m to fall so you wouldn't have to decide anything? Honestly. Think about it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 05:42:08 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Klang Klang Klang
Message:
Keep hearing those bells, Jim.

Don't think our Robert's quite who or what he pretends to be;)

But then, what do I know? Not like I got the inside track or anyfink.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 19, 2001 at 07:33:33 (GMT)
From: PatC
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Klang Klang - you mean the Klaxon's wailing
Message:
Me too, Bazza. Quite frankly to me he's either a common or garden variety phoney or something more insidious like a looser.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index