Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 16:11:06 (GMT)
From: Feb 26, 2001 To: Mar 07, 2001 Page: 2 Of: 5


Way -:- Two favourable media reports? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:07:08 (GMT)
__ Malibu Mole -:- Here's one from the Deccan Chronicle -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:54:31 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Here's one from the Deccan Chronicle -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 13:06:20 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- maybe someone should contact IBM and tell them -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:15:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- comprimise of rights -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:53:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Talking about 'rights' -- what are yours? -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:09:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Or maybe you are dreaming -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:29:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Yeah , you're right , freedom of speech ... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:03:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Yeah, FU2 has a personal toaster -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:31:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- X = Misogynist creep = CD = LIAR = Religious Bigot -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:41:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- whats got you -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 20:55:54 (GMT)
__ Know It All -:- Unfavourable media reports -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:19:40 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Unfavourable media reports -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:23:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- it comes out from the other side -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:18:24 (GMT)

Jim -:- What kind of academic is this? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 16:34:34 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Jim, a startling connection. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 13:58:31 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Jim, a startling connection. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:31:50 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- A suggestion ..... send this entire thread to -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Who he..? (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:27:56 (GMT)
__ nigel -:- A crap one..? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:16:14 (GMT)
__ Way -:- An outrage -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:33:52 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Try this -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:45:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- No, that email address didn't work -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:09:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- Thanks, Jim, I'm following suit -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:52:13 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Way, he is not a professor -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:39:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- Not a professor (FWIW) -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:14:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- At what institution? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:44:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- University College Chichester (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:21:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- never mind: Jim posted his address above(nt) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Not sure which one is current -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:54:44 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- What kind of academic is this? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:20:27 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- These fucking names! -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:19:36 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- was someone watching him and counting his breaths? -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 10:29:46 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hey, that's ethnocentraracism! (Isn't it?) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:24:27 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- It's called spiritual wanking!nt -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:21:48 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- And more to the point -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:15:31 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Oy oy my memory.... -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:25:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- I'd like to have a word with righteous Mr.Geaves. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- righteous relfection -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:18:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- CD's slogan: Incomplete Statements R Us -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:44:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- CD, your religious bigotry's worse than useless NT -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:21:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- what bigotry -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:49:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- righteous relfection -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:07:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- ranting relfection -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Tell us what you like about this site, Chris -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 23:32:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Patrick (formerly Anon)-- you've been tricked! -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:40:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Anon (formerly Anon) -:- Patrick (formerly Anon)-- you've been tricked! -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 21:50:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Here's Geaves' 'Life' story on ELK -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:15:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- .... and my favorite part -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:24:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- .... and my favorite part -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:26:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- .... and my favorite part -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:52:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- .... and a part -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:45:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill-'listening with your -:- heart'--maybe not so 'rare'?..maybe normal?..nt -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- just a quote -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 20:58:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- just a quote -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 13:18:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- story -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 16:57:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick (Formerly Anon) -:- I mailed this to him ..I hope the address works -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:04:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick -:- Important correction - sorry I boobed. -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:29:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Excellent letter, Anon! -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- good Anon, maybe you can help him out..nt -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:13:23 (GMT)

Tallahassee Lassie -:- Quiz-Time -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:14:24 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- Quiz-Time - Hey TL, what's the answer? {nt} -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 15:58:32 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- You know how to spell Tallahassee so ... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:24:58 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- I'm Rumi nating on this one . -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 14:21:05 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Shri Pissedagain Ji (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:22:38 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Shri Mark Knopfler -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:33:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I just think they're crap Steve. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:11:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Industrial Disease Is A Classic -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- OK, I begrudgingly admit -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 19:27:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- OK, I begrudgingly admit -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 15:31:01 (GMT)
__ __ Tallahassee Lassie -:- Shri Pissedagain Ji (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:29:50 (GMT)

salam -:- No more premies -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 12:20:23 (GMT)
__ Premieji -:- No more premies -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:11:08 (GMT)
__ salam -:- the menu at amaroo -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:58:59 (GMT)
__ __ DeProGram -:- The new rules -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 09:03:50 (GMT)
__ me again -:- What is the Link to the Brisbane courier article? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 12:51:43 (GMT)

Barry -:- Yo! anybody up?and No I'm not drunk!OT(nt) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:58:06 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- send me an emule -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:02:01 (GMT)
__ Barry -:- I have no life! I guess I'll go to bed!OT(nt) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 11:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Sweet dreams Barry (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 11:19:10 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- New page on EPO reg EV's status -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:38:26 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- And even more documents on the issue -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 15:49:41 (GMT)
__ janet -:- what are the reqquirements of a charity?? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:52:13 (GMT)

AJW -:- Scamaroo and Latvian Night neck and neck. -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:26:01 (GMT)
__ salam -:- It's March -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 14:02:48 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Be patient salam, -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:14:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- you ripped me off man, where are my brothers, -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:59:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- hold your fire comrade -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 19:55:47 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- I'll have the crispy sacred cow, chips and spam... -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 11:19:04 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- You'll be happy to hear... -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 11:21:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- It doesn't Matter panir to me either anth -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:09:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Side of beans? -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:13:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian smith -:- the sides are the best part, add a little daddies -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:27:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- The Swallows are flying north -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 12:33:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Latvian night about to pull ahead.. -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 12:18:00 (GMT)

JTF -:- So what is K good for(from below) -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:25:30 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- So what is K good for? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:35:15 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- So what is K good for? Nothing according to Rawat -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 14:32:32 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- So what is K good for? Question for you Pat -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:14:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Question for you Pat -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 20:18:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Thanks Pat -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:08:34 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Seeking -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:12:13 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- Seeking -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:25:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Liberation makes you go blind. -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 11:18:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- I'm with you, JTF -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:03:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Liberation: Horseshit or Horsemeat? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 16:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Liberation: Horseshit or Horsemeat? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 16:53:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Liberation: Horseshit or Horsemeat? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:39:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- An odd liberation story -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:30:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I am all for liberation -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 19:12:18 (GMT)

David -:- A writers request for information -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:07:14 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- So what brings you here? -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:45:24 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Lots of info in Journeys section - look here -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:50:28 (GMT)

Been There -:- Double bind re education -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 18:05:55 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Two things Been There -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:53:37 (GMT)
__ Paul -:- Double bind re education -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 19:39:16 (GMT)
__ __ Been There -:- Suggestions? -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:30:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ DV -:- Suggestions? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:01:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- As usual I have something to say... -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:01:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Great post Patrick. (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- As usual I have something to say..As usual I enjoy -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:08:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- As usual I have something to say..As usual I enjoy -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:02:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- yeah right Patrick / go to bed -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:19:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Important correction -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:34:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- To Been There: Suggestions? -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:49:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Dealing with the losses -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:48:39 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- More suggestions: read, think, learn (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:16:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Been There -:- Thanks everyone. -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 07:20:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Want two more cents? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:00:27 (GMT)

Way -:- email response from Satpal's representative -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 17:18:08 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- email response from Satpal's My response from Sat -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:20:45 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- email response from Satpal's representative -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:13:04 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing.. -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 15:05:07 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- We should send some of this stuff to ELK... -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:26:07 (GMT)
__ janet -:- Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing.. -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:20:54 (GMT)
__ __ John Alden Ins. Co. -:- So Janet, the burning question of the day is.... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:42:02 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Depression: The irony is that many PWKs -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:39:48 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing.. -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:59:17 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Phew! -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:36:58 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing.. -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 19:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Joe, you know what's ironic? -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:29:39 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- blowing off education -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:02:39 (GMT)
__ __ D_Thomas -:- Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing.. -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 19:58:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Pursuit of other than service and dedication -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:18:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Pursuit of other than service and dedication -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Pursuit of other/M was quite clear about... -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- It was all bullshit, anyway -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:24:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- It was all bullshit, anyway -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:59:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Alan Imbarrato -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:27:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- Alan Imbarrato/Jon Knight -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:33:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Same Old Story -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:50:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Same Old Story -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:49:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Same Old Story -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 05:52:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Charles S. -:- Same Old Story, remade for a much wider audience.. -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:56:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Same Old Story -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:09:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Not that different -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:03:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Pursuit of other than service and dedication -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:06:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Pursuit of other than service and dedication -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:06:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Leaving the cult was difficult and painful -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:49:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Time Fixes -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:34:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Where we stayed -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:44:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Pursuit of other than service and dedication -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:33:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sure -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:40:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- Some did continue their -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:04:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Extremely rare -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 01:03:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Connie -:- it wasn't in USA -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:26:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- education not considered 'service' -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:12:04 (GMT)
__ G -:- learned helplessness -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 16:50:21 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- Maharaji and premies' 'garbage' -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 16:27:45 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- A wonderful, refreshing rant. Thanks Disculta (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:19:23 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Maharaji and premies' 'garbage' -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:24:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I have a note from my mum. -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:56:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Charles S. -:- Connecticut refugees (OT) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:35:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Connecticut refugees (OT) -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 18:55:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Charles S. -:- Connecticut refugees (OT) -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:05:10 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Disculta, do you remember... -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 17:03:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Disculta -:- Disculta, do you remember... -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:56:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Been There -:- Has M been to therapy? -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:37:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Has M been to therapy? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:28:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- this is a MUST read post above -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:01:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- also...shared of Soprano's huh? (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:04:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Been There -:- Thanks Michael -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 07:17:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JTF -:- Has M been to therapy??extrememely relevant ? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:33:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Has M been to therapy??extrememely relevant ? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:40:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JTF -:- Has M been to therapy??extrememely relevant ? -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:45:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- M went to therapy? My jaw just dropped. -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:26:29 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Great Post, Nigel... -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 16:06:51 (GMT)
__ __ Been There -:- Inaccurate info -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:52:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Panacea -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:46:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- He certainly DOES present it as a panacea - -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:06:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ Connie -:- Precisely, keep it only within the family -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:29:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Bait and Switch -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:46:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ JTF -:- Inaccurate info/ legal necessities -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 21:46:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- K is not a pschological cure -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:54:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- K is not a pschological cure -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:04:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- K is not a psychological cure -:- Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:32:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- But Psychology can be a K cure!.....nt -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:11:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- The Psychology you can't get in Knowledge nt -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:41:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ such -:- shit! where are the razor blades when I need 'em?! -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:49:50 (GMT)


Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:07:08 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Two favourable media reports?
Message:
ELK reports on its 'Around the Planet' section, that one of Rawat's recents events in India was covered by the Indian press, 'favourably.' They present a portion of one of the reports, which is headlined: '4,000-strong crowd gushes over jet-setter.' Hey, yet another new way to refer to the Filament, the jet-setter!' Real favorable!

Come on, guys, let's write letters to those two newspapers, especially how our jet-setter runs over bycylists when he's not on his yacht.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:54:31 (GMT)
From: Malibu Mole
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Here's one from the Deccan Chronicle
Message:

Deccan Chronicle

Sant thrills with heart talk

Hyderabad, Feb. 4: Hes a jet-setting guru who helps people listen to their inner voice for contentment. His examples drawn from everyday life have a calming effect on the 4,000-odd gathering who have come to share his knowledge at Turkapally village in Shamirpet mandal on Saturday.

Head of the Divine United Organisation, Sant Maharaj, hails from Hardwar. A widely travelled guru who flies his own jet, Sant jis disciples are from a cross section of society, which include doctors, engineers and those from the corporate world.

Among those gathered were a large number of foreign nationals, too, who seem to be his ardent followers. Introducing their guru to the crowd was Gopalakrishnan, general manager, IBM.

A doctor from Delhi, Harish Gupta was also in the gathering. He says his life is more enriched now, and the positive vibrations show on the people he cures.

The Sants speech was simple and interspersed with humourous anecdotes. The discourse bordered on talks relating to inner voice or voice of the heart and spoke of the value of human life. All human inventions meant to give comfort are useless if there is no inner contentment, he said.

According Sant Maharaj knowledge must work along the directions of the heart. Im not speaking anything new but I am only reminding people of something they already know, he says.

His message is to recognise ones own thirst, using the tools human body gifted to us.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 13:06:20 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: Here's one from the Deccan Chronicle
Message:
I cann't find the link to the article, do I need to log in to be able to read it from the source?
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:15:14 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: maybe someone should contact IBM and tell them
Message:
how their GM is getting brainwashed by a cult leader and how their technology being compromised.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:53:01 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: comprimise of rights
Message:
>how their GM is getting brainwashed by a cult leader and how their technology being compromised.

Maybe someone should tell your mommy ...

What are you saying?
That if someone wants to do something or believe something, it has to be approved by the company they work for?
And where is the compromise of technology.

Ever hear of civil rights Salam. People do have individaul rights to live their lives the way they see fit. That is as far as their society allows that to happen. Hopefully you will reconsider your statement.

I don't think you will get much sympathy from IBM. I doubt that they will listen to your intolerant viewpoint. It may even be illegal for them to consider it. It certainly would be a violation of rights in the US.

CD

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:09:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Talking about 'rights' -- what are yours?
Message:
What right do YOU have to ask anyone anything, Chris, if you refuse to follow through in anything that even slightly resembles a dialogue? I guess this is what really pisses me off about you. You throw your ugly little pronouncements at us all the time, but you never have the guts to stand by a single one of them and talk the issue out.

Again, for the million-and-second time, are you aware of how frsutrated people get trying to talk with you? What do you say about that? Is that your fault? If not, why do you say that? If so, same?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:29:20 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Or maybe you are dreaming
Message:
I think IBM will be very interested in knowing why their GM, is representing their company in a meeting that is not work related and has no approval. I would like also to know what will IBM say when they know that the main speaker has run over someone with his car and put the blame on someboday else and I want to hear what IBM will say when they also hear that the speaker harbor a criminal, not your average one, but a child molister.

So, what civil right you are talking about, I bet you the GM is just as brain dead as you are, has no clue what the maharaji been up to, but that is the benefit of being in India init? You can run over people, rape then steal their lives and Bob's you uncle, while you are crying civil rights. No mate, haven't heared of it.

Neither have the thousands and thousands that have contributed to the maharaja's fortune. Because they have been lied to, plain and simple and as long as that spineless pimp of a guru that is yours is walking around I will chase him down, regardless what it takes.

Oh, but you are brainwashed and am wasting my time alking to you, sorry, forgot that.

Civil rights my foot.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:03:35 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Yeah , you're right , freedom of speech ...
Message:

....religion , & conscience .

Thank god the big boys don't want to tangle with all this shit .

Which just leaves us little ones.

All's fair in love & war , & as this is war ...FUCK RAWAT & HIS ACOLYTES .

It's deep down & PERSONAL , remember .

FU2

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:31:32 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Yeah, FU2 has a personal toaster
Message:
>It's deep down & PERSONAL , remember . FU2

I never knew about FU2 before!
You are clever.

And, I didn't know there were so many toasters.
Every one can have their own. Pretty PERSONAL, yes I see.
How do you keep them coming? My god.

Toasters for Everybody

CD

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:41:27 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: X = Misogynist creep = CD = LIAR = Religious Bigot
Message:
An inspiration to us all to follow Rawat's spiritual path, CD, you really are.

You do forgery too, it seems. Tell us about that, CD.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 20:55:54 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: whats got you
Message:
>You do forgery too, it seems. Tell us about that, CD.

Whats up with you ???

I thought AS/400 guys were well off.
Very odd stuff you are posting.
Could be the Devil.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:19:40 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Unfavourable media reports
Message:
Way, some extremely unfavourable media reports are on the way (no pun intended).
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:23:08 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Unfavourable media reports
Message:
Yes I know, Know it All, about those upcoming media reports. I've been holding my breath since Christmas about it, (and it's hard to do Holy Name when you're holding your breath).
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:18:24 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: it comes out from the other side
Message:
such is the power of holly breath
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 16:34:34 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What kind of academic is this?
Message:
I dunno, but I find it ludicrous in the extreme that a Maharaji cult member could hold himself out as an academic in the field of comparative religions. All the obvious reasons. It's an affront to the spirit of intellectual inquiry and the very nature of higher education. Does anyone know where Mr. Geaves teaches? What school? Does anyone know him?

One of Sri Sarupanandji's last mahatmas

Ron Geaves, a professor in comparative religions and one of the first westerners to receive Knowledge, has recently returned from India and filed this touching story.

Last month he took time off from his academic research to visit Akhand Yoganandji, one of perhaps two surviving mahatmas who worked with Sri Sarupanandji.

Sri Maharaj Ji, who was Maharaji's father and master, became master after Sarupanandji died in 1936. Maharaji succeeded Sri Maharaj Ji n July 1966.

Recently I was in India engaged in some research for my university. It also happened that Maharaji was in Delhi and I was looking forward to the possibility that I might have a chance to meet my master and enjoy a moment of his company.

While in Delhi I took the opportunity to visit the shrine set up to mark the place where Sri Swarupanandji Maharaj passed the last few weeks of his life. I knew that Sri Swarupanandji was the master of Sri Hans Ji Maharaj and I hoped to find out more about the history of my own master's lineage.

At the shrine, known as Nangli Sahib, I was received with Indian courtesy and hospitality and introduced to Vibhuti, a very bright girl who was to be my translator and guide. I had hoped to find out more about Sri Swarupanandji Maharaj but I did not expect to find myself face to face with an extremely old mahatma who had actually spent time with Sri Maharaj Ji's master. Mahatma Akhand Yoganandji was extremely frail and completely blind, perhaps to be expected of a man who had achieved the magnificent age of 101. However, his mind was as clear as a bell and he chuckled joyfully as he was introduced to me. He spoke to me of his days travelling around India giving people the techniques of Knowledge in the 1920s and 1930s and his own sadness when his master died in 1936.

Akhand Yoganandji held my hand and seemed to be using his sense of touch to feel me out. I, in turn, could only feel respect and deep affection for this very old man who had in his own time served and loved a living master. After some moments he announced that he liked me and would answer any question that I might have. Almost holding my breath in anticipation, I asked him if he had known Sri Hans Ji Maharaj. He became very excited and his hand gripped mine even tighter. He spoke to Vibhuti in Hindi and I awaited the translation. Vibhuti turned to me and said:

'Mahatmaji says that Sri Hans Ji Maharaj was my friend.
Later he had four sons. The youngest was Balyogeshwar (The name by which Maharaji was known for many years).
We travelled together for nearly four years spreading the Knowledge
of Sri Guru Maharaji (Swarupanandji Maharaj).
Sri Hans Ji Maharaj was a beloved sant (mahatma) of Sri Guru Maharaji.
Sri Hans Ji Maharaj loved Sri Swarupanandji very much and
Sri Guru Maharaji loved Sri Hans Ji Maharaj very much.
Sri Swarupanandji Maharaj loved all his sants very much but I think
that he loved Sri Hans Ji Maharaj more than all of us.'

I felt that this was a very special moment and on return to Delhi I communicated this information on a visit to the Delhi Knowledge centre. It was decided that I would return to Nangli Sahib accompanied by a cameraman so that a more in-depth interview could take place to record Akhand Yoganand's memories for posterity.

On my arrival back at the shrine, Vibhuti greeted me with the words, 'Mahatmaji has gone. He has passed away.'

I was deeply shocked as I had loved this old man even if only for the brief moment we had spent together. It turned out that his conversation with me had been his last. That night he had fallen ill, briefly slept and on awaking had sat upright. After two breaths he passed away peacefully.

I regretted not passing more time with him.

I learned many things from my brief meeting with Mahatma Akhand Yoganandji but these three strike me as the most important: first, I should always be ready for life to surprise me; second, I should pay more attention to Sri Maharaji's maxim: 'Do not put off until tomorrow what you can do today.' There are some things in life you never get a second shot at; but lastly and most importantly, the meeting with this old mahatma made me realise even more profoundly the significance of the relationship between the living master and the living student. I have become more aware of how fortunate I am.

Akhand Yoganand's favourite song (bhajan) that he used to sing daily is printed below:

O mind, count the rosary of breath
It is self-repeated.
Do not forget the breath
Even when walking, standing or seated.
This intimate remembrance lies deep within
And does not need a tongue.
Like a flower growing between walls
The heart lotus turns
And grows straight towards the seat
Of the living supreme power.
Then all my impurities are washed away.
This is the secret that my master revealed to me.

The cage is lying empty in the corner
Whilst its occupant flies free.
This gift was given to you,
A parrot without wings..

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 13:58:31 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, a startling connection.
Message:
Check out my 'Unity School Denver' post to Abi, above, for details of a research project our old pal was involved in recently.

I think he mentioned it to Jethro and got fired from his cult job.

Anth who sees connections everywhere because it's all one man.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:31:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Jim, a startling connection.
Message:
Anth,

I did read that, thanks. All the more reason it'd be good to have an email for Ron Geaves that actually worked.

Jim -- who states the obvious and is a little slow getting going here after a typical Friday night.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:22:40 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A suggestion ..... send this entire thread to
Message:

john.clare@telegraph.co.uk

I don't know how to do it .

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:27:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Who he..? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:16:14 (GMT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: A crap one..?
Message:
A professorship means, if nothing else, an impressive string of publications somewhere, somehow - even if it's only in The International Journal for the Simple Minded, and the only people impressed were similarly over-promoted non-entities.

I'll see if I can get onto to the uni's divinity CDROMS and track down some of Professor Geaves' published stuff.

Or maybe Padre Mickey has ready access to a relevant literature source?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:33:52 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: An outrage
Message:
Presenting this information on ELK is ok, I guess, as long as you remain a cult member. But when you present yourself as a professor of comparative religion, it is an outrage. I can only hope that the esteemed professor does not present such incomplete and one-sided information to his university students of religion. If he does so, he should be dismissed in disgrace.

Professor Geaves makes no mention about Shri Han's ashram, Prem Nagar. Why did he not visit Prem Nagar when he was in India? We all know perfectly well why he doesn't mention anything about Prem Nagar or about Shri Han's organization in India today. He also makes a bold, unqualified statement about Shri Hans becoming the master in 1936. But he fails to mention that Sarupanand's organization was headed by Varaganand after 1936, and Shri Hans left on his own.

And the guy actually mentions one of the five commandments, and how he should obey it more often. How about those four other 'maxims?'

And the supposed lesson in all this: the importance of the LIVING master. It is very interesting to read between the lines. Why did the 101-year-old man refer to Shri Hans as 'my friend' and not 'my master'? Why did he continue to evidently consider Sarupanand his master, now that he was dead, if the LIVING master is what is important, and the living master was now Shri Hans? And why did he stay with Shri Hans for only four years? Then what happened?

You can be sure that if this 'professor' went back and had been able to interview the old man further, he would have left out any mention of any information not acceptable to Prempal, whether that information is true and pertinent or not.

As you say, Jim, Ron Geaves is not an honorable academic. Far from it. He has no interest in presenting the whole story, but only in supporting his own master's cult.

If anyone finds out where this man teaches, I will definitely write a letter of complaint to his superiors.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:45:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Try this
Message:
Dr. R. A. Geaves
University of Wolverhampton, UK
Religious Studies Division
Walsall Campus, Gorway Road
Walsall, WS1 3BD
England UK

Tel: +44(0)1902 323280
Fax: +44(0)1902 323177
e-mail: R.A.Geaves@wlv.ac.uk

I just emailed the good professor directly:

'Dear Professor Geaves:

I noticed your recent post on ELK and can't help but wonder if you're aware of the excellent work David Lane has done on the general history of the Radhasoami gurus from which Maharaji's spiritual legacy ostensibly derives. That and some excellent follow-up regarding Maharaji and his father in particular are all nicely set out on a page called 'The Divine Light Mission Papers', part of the Ex-premie web site. The address is:

http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/indian.htm#ORIGINS

I'd be interested in your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Jim Heller'

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:09:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No, that email address didn't work
Message:
But really, we just have to follow up on this. First, Maharaji dismisses the value of properly setting out, let alone researching, his supposed lineage. Then, this joker purports to investigate the matter, first-hand, no less, with the obvious goal of gilding Maharaji's scum pond lotus flower.

The cult's opened this door and they'll be sorry they did.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:52:13 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks, Jim, I'm following suit
Message:
I will send him the 14 objections letter, and ask him to assure us that he does not promote Elan Vital in any way in his classes.
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:39:20 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Way, he is not a professor
Message:
he is a Doctor(as in PhD).
Last time I saw him(Nov 1999), he told me that he would be a professor within 2 years.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:14:53 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Not a professor (FWIW)
Message:
In American usage the term professor can mean any teacher in a university or college.

In England, the term means the principal teacher in a field of learning at a university or college; a holder of a university chair.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:44:47 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: wwilliam@kumc.edu
To: Jethro
Subject: At what institution?
Message:
Jethro,

Do you remember what institution he was at in 1999? Email me if you don't want to post it here.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:21:09 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: University College Chichester (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:25:09 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: never mind: Jim posted his address above(nt)
Message:
s
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:54:44 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Not sure which one is current
Message:
Geaves still is listed at Chichester, phone number only. I can't find him listed at Wolverhampton.
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:20:27 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What kind of academic is this?
Message:
Well, the mahatma clearly wasn't a devotee of prempal(balyogeshwar). I wonder how Ron got around that in his head.

I spent alot of my formative premie years with Ron and he always told many stories like this, unfortunately I drank them hook line and sinker.

The fact is almost any holyman in India will tell you that YOUR guru is special.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:19:36 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: These fucking names!
Message:
Sri Hans Ji Maharaj loved Sri Swarupanandji very much and Sri Guru Maharaji loved Sri Hans Ji Maharaj very much. Sri Swarupanandji Maharaj loved all his sants very much but I think that he loved Sri Hans Ji Maharaj more than all of us.'

How can anybody keep track of who's who with names like these? I get lost after two paragraphs whenever I read biographies of these people.

That night he had fallen ill, briefly slept and on awaking had sat upright. After two breaths he passed away peacefully.

This wouldn't be one of those classic hindu myths we hear about, now, would it? Naw. This is the God's honest truth, something for every premie to sigh about and aspire for themselves. The only way to go.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 10:29:46 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: was someone watching him and counting his breaths?
Message:
imean, he certainly wasnt around to relate the story to his buddies after he passed, was he? so who saw him do this? in other words, how do we know?
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:24:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Hey, that's ethnocentraracism! (Isn't it?)
Message:
Do you think it's any easier for them having to sort out 'Bill' from 'Mike' and the like? Hm, maybe. Actually I was thinking that maybe they only put the 'Shri's there as place keepers so they have an extra split-second to remember who they're talking about.
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:21:48 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: It's called spiritual wanking!nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:15:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And more to the point
Message:
'Mahatmaji says that Sri Hans Ji Maharaj was my friend.
Later he had four sons. The youngest was Balyogeshwar (The name by which Maharaji was known for many years).
We travelled together for nearly four years spreading the Knowledge
of Sri Guru Maharaji (Swarupanandji Maharaj).
Sri Hans Ji Maharaj was a beloved sant (mahatma) of Sri Guru Maharaji.
Sri Hans Ji Maharaj loved Sri Swarupanandji very much and
Sri Guru Maharaji loved Sri Hans Ji Maharaj very much.
Sri Swarupanandji Maharaj loved all his sants very much but I think
that he loved Sri Hans Ji Maharaj more than all of us.'

So let me see if I understand this right. Professor Geaves is investigating the alleged guru lineage of Maharaji. The very exercise that Maharaji himself scoffs at on his own site ('This ain't no history lesson, motherfuckers' -- a direct quote!), Geaves takes up with professional skill and focus. He travels to meet a supposed first-hand witness of the 'succession' or whatever. And what happens? He comes up empty.

Notice how the old guy never comes close to saying that Shri Hans took over the guru franchise from their boss after his death? Hardly. All he can say is that he thinks Shri Hans was a bit of a favorite. And this is Shri Hans' friend, after all. His failure to catch the easy lob and to endorse Shri Hans with some sort of bona fides as their guru's successor is patently obvious.

Someone should contact Professor Geaves and advise him of all the excellent work JM, Patrick and -- sorry, was it G or Way -- have done anticipating his research project and doing all his work for him. This kind of dross should never be allowed to settle as some sort of fake academic endorsement of Maharaji. What's next? TM-like 'scientific studies'?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:25:27 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oy oy my memory....
Message:
I forgot to say that when I had THAT forbidden conversation with Ron, when I mentioned David Lane, Ron was silent for a wehile and said that 'David Lane made an academic mistake' with regard to HRH shrihans.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:46:26 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Jim, Jethro etc
Subject: I'd like to have a word with righteous Mr.Geaves.
Message:
'David Lane made an academic mistake'

What the hell's he talking about! The sad thing is that Geaves is probably terribly uptight about all this. David Lane made no mistakes -he reported exactly what he was told in India and qualified it by adding 'you can't take anything you hear in India as truth' or some such words. He knows it's a crazy hypocritical guru scene over there and takes all this 'historical revisionism' with a large pinch of salt.

Geaves is making a worse academic mistake if he doesn't say exactly what Lane's mistake is supposed to have been , also he should put his money where his mouth is and give Lane the chance to defend this as yet unsubstantiated accusation.

So here we have some old fellow who reputedly knew Shri Hans saying that Shri Hans was Sarupanand's chosen One (and formerly a mahatma of his) and on the other hand we have this book which says no, it was this other guy Advaitanand who Sarupanand loved the most and so the stupid, tiresome, heinous game goes on.

Now we have biased Mr Geaves clearly chosing to abandon academic practice and join in the soppy, ridiculous pretence.

What we have proved by digging up the fact that Advaitanand carried on Sarupanand's mission is that there was indeed a dispute (not something I was ever told) and that, as usual, nobody could agree on who the next God was.

Sri Hans Ji Maharaj was a beloved sant (mahatma) of Sri Guru Maharaji.

All this 'beloved' stuff is starting to wear a bit thin.

If Shri Hans was one of Sarupanand's Mahatmas I would like to know what his given name was - because the biography of Sarupanand, that I have here in front of me, nowhere mentions him as 'Hans' or similar.

Maybe Shri Hans was a mahatma and the Advait Mat group in Guna are lying their pants off. That's entirely possible if maybe a little unlikely. The historical fact is that Sarupanand's official mission (Advait Mat) was carried on by Advaitanand. The biographer clearly describes the time and the place where Sarupanand informed his disciples that beloved Advaitanand was to be his chosen successor. But who is to say whose telling the truth? Ron Geaves?? Not I, I hasten to add. As far as I can see, all these Indian Guru's and their followers are conspicuously casual about the truth .
Even if this 'ParamHans Advait Mat' biography is bogus, what the hell can anyone including Ron Geaves say with certainty about what actually happened??

The early DLM reports, and the last words of this old guy whom Geaves has dug up to bolster his beliefs, proves nothing! Geaves just uses the situation to spin an 'emotive' little story to impress his fellow Maharaji believers.

His blurb was pulled off Enjoying Life Site wasn't it? I rest my case. That is not exactly the same as publishing an academic paper is it? He ain't going to attract much challenge from that quarter - just nodding heads.

If this extract from his burblings is anything to go by, Ron Geaves' academic research must be seen as irrelevant , due to his huge bias and lack of substance. So now we have revisionists in academia ! What a joke!

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:18:06 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: righteous relfection
Message:
>>'David Lane made an academic mistake'
>What the hell's he talking about!

You read a simple comment made to Jethro and you go bonkers.
The guy stated a quick summary of his viewpoint. At least thats all that Jethro remembers or wrote.
What the hell has got into you.

>The sad thing is that Geaves is probably terribly uptight about all this.

Thats a heck of a statement to make based on what?
You agree with Lane. Fine. Not everybody does.

>If this extract from his burblings is anything to go by, Ron Geaves' academic research must be seen as irrelevant , due to his huge bias and lack of substance.

Oh yeah. Those you don't agree with are irrelavent.
This is one of the biggest homes of ignorance on this site.
The belief that the so called 'exs' know enough to judge the so called 'premies' and brand their beliefs as worthless.

CD

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:44:49 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD's slogan: Incomplete Statements R Us
Message:
Hey, CD, why didn't you answer my question below? You know, the one I've asked you a million times? What's wrong? Didn't see it? A bit busy? Sorry. Here it is again:

Everyone I know of who's ever tried to talk with you here has complained that it's impossible to carry on anything like a conversation with you. Those who have tried have invariably expressed their frustration in the effort saying that, in particular, you don't answer questions responsively or carry through in anything akin to actual debate or dialogue.

1) Do you agree that this has been the general consensus?

2) Do you think that you DO answer questions responsively?

3) Do you think that you DO carry through in anything akin to actual debate or dialogue?

4) If you say 'yes' to 2 and 3, to what do you attribute this general frustration with you?

I'd REALLY like your answer some day, Chris, because right now, I've got to tell you, you look like a very contempuous little weenie. Here's why. You wrote:

Oh yeah. Those you don't agree with are irrelavent.
This is one of the biggest homes of ignorance on this site.
The belief that the so called 'exs' know enough to judge the so called 'premies' and brand their beliefs as worthless.

Big, ugly statement there, 'Biggest homes of ignorance'. Not sure exactly what you mean but I'm sure I'm not the only one who would love to talk that through with you. Problem is, you won't do that, will you?

Here's how it works with regular human beings, Chris. You make a big, ugly critical comment like that and the people you make it against ask you what you mean. Now you could have explained what you meant to begin with but, well, you didn't. No harm there, so long as you stick around to talk about it. So, yeah, a regular human version of Chris Dickey (RHVCD) would be expected to talk like this:

RHVCD: This site is a big home of ignorance.

Ex-premie: Oh, really? Why do you say that?

RHVCD: Well, I say that because of x and because of y.

Ex-premie: OK, fine, but I say that x isn't true and y is irrelevant.

RHVCD: No, x IS true. After all, think about a, b and c. And y matters because of z.

Ex-premie: What? What do a or b have to do with anything? And c is simply wrong. Don't you remember d?

-- and like that. It's called a discussion. Hopefully, it even includes things like this:

RHVCD: Ok, maybe you're right. Maybe y really doesn't matter here and maybe c didn't go down the way I'd heard.

which just might elicit things like this:

Ex-premie: Thank you for your candour, CD. Now, as I was saying .....

But all of that is impossible with you. You refuse to discuss anything. Instead you just snipe. For another example, Chris, not that you need one, you say above ex's are mistaken to believe they know enough to 'judge the so-called premies and brand their beliefs as worthless'. I take it that there could be a level of knowledge that might entitle an ex to do just that? Is that what you're saying? Ok, fine. Knowledge about what exactly? What are you talking about? And what's missing now? When's enough enough? And all those good questions.

But you won't do it. You won't discuss like a normal human being and so, for the millon and oneth time, I ask you again:

Do you know how much you frustrate people here?

What do you have to say about it?

Forget about the premie / ex-premie substantive issues for a moment, do you think it's fair for you to do this?

Come on, Chris, what do you say? We know you're making tons of money. We know you're a great guitar player. We know you like to perch yourself on the side of the forum and throw rocks. But what about the rest? Why won't you talk with us?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:21:14 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD, your religious bigotry's worse than useless NT
Message:
foo
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:49:00 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: what bigotry
Message:
You must be denouncing the wrong person.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:07:11 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: righteous relfection
Message:
>>'David Lane made an academic mistake'
You read a simple comment made to Jethro and you go bonkers.
The guy stated a quick summary of his viewpoint. At least thats all that Jethro remembers or wrote.
What the hell has got into you.

Just feeling annoyed about it. Can I rant for once please CD? I usualy bend over backwards to be tactful and polite with people - can't I rant without you leaping on me to claim proof that because I said somethng I did not mean that this forum is a den of iniquity? Can't you do anything but find fault here?? What about you mate? You are so keen to criticise and jump on anyone who puts a foot wrong here but not once have you acknowledged the truths that get spoken here. When your anger starts to come out I'll remind you of how you used to tick me off!

Ok I'm being too presumptuous here in guessing that Ron has not checked this out with Lane. I am reacting like this because I absolutely refute that Lane's comments about Advait Mat and Sarupanand represent any 'academic mistake' . Lane merely reports his personal interviews and directs us to the biographical book about Saarupanand. Is that an acamedic mistake? No way.

Sure Lane maybe makes acamedic mistakes occasionally - everyone does -but the suggestion that Ron is making is that the mistake is about this particular matter, which I dispute!

>The sad thing is that Geaves is probably terribly uptight about all this.

Thats a heck of a statement to make based on what?

Based on the fact that he trots out statements like 'Lane made an acamedic mistake'. Oh alright then...Ok he may not be uptight -he's probably not.

You agree with Lane. Fine. Not everybody does.

It's not a question of agreeing with Lane since Lane is merely reporting what facts and relevant documentaion he has learned about Shri Hans. He doesn't make any judgements to agree or disagree with in this case.

>If this extract from his burblings is anything to go by, Ron Geaves' academic research must be seen as irrelevant , due to his huge bias and lack of substance.

Oh yeah. Those you don't agree with are irrelavent.
This is one of the biggest homes of ignorance on this site.
The belief that the so called 'exs' know enough to judge the so called 'premies' and brand their beliefs as worthless.

Oh no - you've got me again! CD I'm so sorry!
Ok so I had better rephrase that outburst - Ron is clearly biased towards Maharaji and thus his acamedic research on that subject may reflect his feelings to some extent - However I apologise for rashly making the sweeping statement that suggests that I judge his other academic work is irrelevant. It is of course most important.

Your object that The belief that the so called 'exs' know enough to judge the so called 'premies' and brand their beliefs as worthless

We are making judgements about the beliefs of others based on our experiences of the same beliefs.

Ironically you are keen also to brand our beliefs as worthless. At least that is the impression you give me.

Anyway you're being a bit over-dramatic aren't you? I don't actually think others beliefs are worthless -I just don't share some other people's values. That's the fact.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:16:46 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Patrick (no longer Anon)
Subject: ranting relfection
Message:
>Just feeling annoyed about it. Can I rant for once please CD? I usualy bend over backwards to be tactful and polite with people - can't I rant without you leaping on me to claim proof that because I said somethng I did not mean that this forum is a den of iniquity? Can't you do anything but find fault here??

If all I found was fault I probably wouldn't be interested in the site.

I agree. You should be able rant. And I was counter ranting about the possibility that you might change from a decent fellow into something like one of the full time forum ranters who are easily identified by their subject lines. And also that your rant mmight be picked up and used to fuel further rants by others becoming a ranting rant leading to ill will and eventual bigotry ranting.

The other thing is I see some people posting about wanting to interfere or incite others to interfere in other peoples lives because of differences of opinions. Like suggesting that IBM be contacted because one of their employees spoke at a Maharaji event. Or suggesting that Ron Geaves is not competent in the field of comparitive religions and should not be allowed to pursue his academic career without interference and harassment aimed at his employer.

CD

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 23:32:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Tell us what you like about this site, Chris
Message:
If all I found was fault I probably wouldn't be interested in the site.

What, in your opinion, is good about this place? If you think there's something of value here, what? Come on, Chris, why don't you finish a sentence for once, just once?

You know, you've called this site just a bunch of rumours before. I take it you don't think that anymore. So, tell us, of all the shitty allegations made against Maharaji here, which ones do you think are true? Which do you think are false? Time for a little chat, don't you think? (Ha haha ahahahaha!)

The other thing is I see some people posting about wanting to interfere or incite others to interfere in other peoples lives because of differences of opinions. Like suggesting that IBM be contacted because one of their employees spoke at a Maharaji event. Or suggesting that Ron Geaves is not competent in the field of comparitive religions and should not be allowed to pursue his academic career without interference and harassment aimed at his employer.

I'm with you on the IBM guy, perhaps. Got to think about it a little more before I'd give that one away but yes, my initial inclination is to agree that what he does is his business.

But Geaves is a different matter. He's clearly set out as some sort of authority on this kind of lineage shit. Excerpts like:

I felt that this was a very special moment and on return to Delhi I communicated this information on a visit to the Delhi Knowledge centre. It was decided that I would return to Nangli Sahib accompanied by a cameraman so that a more in-depth interview could take place to record Akhand Yoganand's memories for posterity.

give the impression that he, an expert in comparative religions, is conducting some measure of research regarding Maharaji's lineage. He's fair game, all the way.


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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:40:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Patrick (formerly Anon)-- you've been tricked!
Message:
First, it's 'academic' (??)

Second, you've been tricked. Your answer to CD suggests that you were lulled into thinking you were talking with a Regular Human Version of CD (RHVCD). You know, the kind that talks with you, you talk with him, he talks back -- like that.

But, alas, you weren't. You were only talking with plain, ol' CD As we Know Him. Different fish entirely.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 21:50:27 (GMT)
From: Anon (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Patrick (formerly Anon)-- you've been tricked!
Message:
First, it's 'academic' (??)

That is so weird. How I managed to type 'acamedic' 4 or 5 times is almost impossible. Of course I know how to spell academic so the only explanation that I can come up with is that when typing I get into a rhythm and if I get into a wrong rhythm, I subconsciously switch of my innate spell check. Weird. By the way I am not a proper typist I use 2 or three fingers mostly .

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:15:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Here's Geaves' 'Life' story on ELK
Message:
Ron Geaves

On the master of consistency

Lecturer in Religious Studies, Dr Ron Geaves travelled to India in search of a real experience of truth. He met Maharaji, then just 11 years old, who said he could show him what he was searching for. But Maharaji advised him to continue searching throughout India and if he could not find any satisfaction elsewhere then to return to him for assistance.

Nearly 30 years ago I began a journey for adventure that turned into a journey of discovery that has never ceased to the present day. Like many of my contemporaries of the 1960's I was attracted to India because of its long history of spirituality. In 1968 I travelled overland with a friend, hitching rides through Europe, Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan and finally arriving in India in the Spring of 1969.

I had been searching in my own way for something that I called truth. I had come to the conclusion that my needs were 'spiritual' after exploring all the other avenues. I passed hours of my life searching through hundreds of books, including most of the world's scriptures hoping that one day I would open a page and my longed-for truth would leap out at me. It never did but I certainly set off for India with a head full of ideas of what I would find there and how I would go about finding it.

I was tired of theories and wanted some kind of real experience. All the books that I had read seemed to spring out of someone's direct experience and I wanted to know that for myself. I had reached the point that whenever I met someone belonging to any religious tradition claiming to know something, I asked: 'Can you show me? No more theories, no more words. Can you show me that experience?' I asked this question of a few people on my journey and later in India but it always elicited even more words.

STRANGE IMPACT

Anyone who has visited India will understand the strange impact that country can have on your life. I was amazed that India actually allowed people to just wander off and live a life in pursuit of whatever religious path they wanted to follow. I decided to do likewise and donned the saffron robe of a Hindu renunciate and headed off for Varanasi where I lived under a tree dedicated to Shiva, the god of renunciates, under the guidance of an old priestess.

However, before leaving for Varanasi, I had met with an English traveller who had told me about his young master Maharaji and the Knowledge that he had received from him. I was struck by his enthusiasm and obvious sincerity, but I have always been a stubborn and self-willed person so I decided to continue with my own plans. After a number of priceless experiences in Varanasi I decided to return to Delhi and find out what Maharaji taught.

I first met him in a house in Ghaziabad after listening to him speak in Hindi to a crowd of around 10,000. I had been amazed at his authority in addressing such a large audience. At the time, Maharaji was only 11 years old. I had been used to the holy men of Varanasi or the Sufis I had met when travelling to India. They were usually venerable greybeards. However, Maharaji had an authority and presence that belied his years. Thousands of people obviously felt that he had something that qualified him to be their teacher and guide. So I asked him my question that I had posed to others on my journey across the world: 'Can you show me?'

SIMPLE AND DIRECT REPLIES

The reply was an assertive: 'Yes, it is inside of you and I can show you where to look within.' Maharaji also impressed me in that he did not attempt to convince me that I needed to become his student. On the contrary, he advised me to continue searching throughout India and if I could not find any satisfaction elsewhere then to return to him for assistance. I did not want to go anywhere else. His simple and direct replies were the ones that I had wanted to hear from someone for a long time.

This was good enough for me and in July 1969 I received the four techniques which Maharaji calls 'Knowledge' and which provide the means to go within. At the time I had no idea that Maharaji intended to make Knowledge available throughout the world. All that is history now. Maharaji came to England in June 1971 after a few of us had spent two years preparing a small platform from which he could begin to spread his message.

Since then my life has changed dramatically. I am now a lecturer in religious studies in a British university where I teach Islam, Hinduism and Sikhism to undergraduates. My area of expertise is in contemporary forms of religious traditions and I spend a lot of time visiting religious communities and sacred sites around the world. I enjoy my work as it utilises the analytical and discriminating brain that academic training has developed. I am free to be even more independent, self-willed and individual in my beliefs and thoughts than at any other period of my life. However, the gift of Knowledge that was given to me nearly 30 years ago remains the mainstay of my existence. The experience has grown and deepened over the years and it has brought with it wisdom. The essence of that wisdom lies in the discrimination that practising Knowledge has brought with it: the ability to differentiate between the things of the mind and the heart. I like using my intellect and I enjoy the fruits of this world but I know that real and lasting satisfaction can only come from feeding the inner longing that comes from a thirsty heart. Knowledge has provided that inner source to fulfil the heart's longing.

UNCHANGEABLE

Maharaji continues to amaze me. From the day that I received Knowledge he has remained a continuous source of inspiration and delight. I do not have any spiritual or religious ideas concerning who he is. For me it is enough that he performs his role of guide with inspiration, kindness, humour and consistent dedication. I feel that he does it perfectly but he always pushes himself to perform it better. Maharaji is always prepared to change or adapt in order to make Knowledge more available to people, uncluttered by our preconceptions and false expectations. He knows that real 'sacred things' are, by definition, unchangeable by any human activities. Whatever can be changed, will eventually change. The Changeless will always be the Changeless.

Although Maharaji now tours the world, flying from place to place, attending events for audiences that range from a handful of people to thousands, maintaining a schedule that leaves me in awe, the essence of the message has never changed. Maharaji succeeds in finding countless entertaining and inspiring ways of saying: 'That which you are looking for is inside of you.' He supports his words by revealing Knowledge to people all around the world.

Last year alone Maharaji taught the techniques of Knowledge to more than 17, 000 people. Knowledge has always been free of charge and remains a gift given to whoever wants it regardless of religion, gender, race or status. It is a way to go within that puts a human being in touch with the source of their life. Maharaji continues to tell people that there is no obligation to continue practising Knowledge other than that they like it and want to enjoy the fruits that practice brings with it. He is consistent on this point. In 1971 on his first visit to England he spoke in Westminster Central Hall. He said: 'If this Knowledge gives you peace, well and good, go ahead. If not, leave it and try to find another way.'

In June of this year, he spoke in Wembley where he stated: 'If you like Knowledge, fine. If you don't like it, fine. Walk.'

Just as he did with me nearly 30 years ago, he explains simply and directly the obvious truths of our human existence and offers Knowledge as a possibility. If people respond to that message, he ensures that the techniques of Knowledge are available, if not, he sincerely requests them to enjoy their lives.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:24:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: .... and my favorite part
Message:
I enjoy my work as it utilises the analytical and discriminating brain that academic training has developed.

Yeah? Well we'll see about that, won't we, guru licker!

I am free to be even more independent, self-willed and individual in my beliefs and thoughts than at any other period of my life.

It's funny how only cult members, freed slaves and renengade robots would think of saying something like that, isn't it?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:26:52 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: .... and my favorite part
Message:
... lets see--is that what all that immoral, amoral, conscienceless volition comes from?? 'listening to the heart'?
well no wonder i had such a hard time with it! with all my guilt and high IQ ability to ponder consequences, i just couldnt justify wanton self indulgence and 'doing whatever my little heart desires', after knowing about all the heavy issues in the world like global pollution, war, race, economic deprivation, overpopulation and so on.
so thats how they do it. 'listening to the heart', eh?. isnt it amazing it could be so evil? so if i understand this right, it means, just do whatever you want? regardless of how it might affect anyone else?
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:52:01 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: .... and my favorite part
Message:
janet: well no wonder i had such a hard time with it! with all my guilt and high IQ ability to ponder consequences, i just couldnt justify wanton self indulgence and 'doing whatever my little heart desires', after knowing about all the heavy issues in the world like global pollution, war, race, economic deprivation, overpopulation and so on.

so thats how they do it. 'listening to the heart', eh?. isnt it amazing it could be so evil? so if i understand this right, it means, just do whatever you want? regardless of how it might affect anyone else?


The icing on the cake is the claim that karma from this wickedness is avoided through devotion to the Master. As if a self-conscious and moral being with free will could eshew moral responsibility...

That is surely one of the filthiest and most pernicious lies of the cult.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:45:45 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: .... and a part
Message:
>so thats how they do it. 'listening to the heart',

Here is something I found today while studying up on guitar amps:

'DrewLlVE: I see. Well, the next question we have is from someone who's just starting out playing the guitar, and they want to know: What do you feel are the best qualities a great guitarist should possess?

Eric Clapton: There is only one. I mean, if you've got, you know, more than two fingers on either hand and a pair of ears, that's -- for me, the most important ingredient, and perhaps the only one that really matters, is a listening component. And it's -- it maybe sounds a bit simplistic, but, in fact, you have to be able to listen with your heart. And it's a rare quality.'

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:05:22 (GMT)
From: bill-'listening with your
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: heart'--maybe not so 'rare'?..maybe normal?..nt
Message:
kjhl
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 20:58:11 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: bill-'listening with your
Subject: just a quote
Message:
Bill,

It was just an independent observation by a famous man that I posted.

Everybody has different ideas it seems.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 13:18:33 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: just a quote
Message:
Read Me
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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 16:57:07 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: story
Message:
Yes, a good story John. Thanks.

Hear about the day IBM mistook AS/400 for Win2K ?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:04:56 (GMT)
From: Patrick (Formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I mailed this to him ..I hope the address works
Message:
Hi Ron,

I was interested to read of your emotive meeting with Akhand Yoganandji. He sounds like a venerable old fellow and what a shame he passed away before you could see him again or the premies could get a sound-byte.

Whilst I have no reason to doubt that Akhand was telling the truth, I also am aware that in Sarupanand's biography - the book called 'Paramhans Advait Mat', Sarupanand is most elaborately described appointing another mahatma called Advaitanand as his chosen successor and who indeed went on with the mission in Guna afterwards I believe. I have this book in front of me here and it says, black on white, that Sarupanand intended Advaitanand to be his successor, and it describes by name and at great length all those present and the time and place when this happened etc.

Do you know what ShriHans' given name was - as a mahatma of Sarupanand that is? In the book, there are listed literally dozens of Mahatmas names amongst which I have found no 'Hans'. Should I be looking for someone else?

I gather that Divine Light Mission saw the Advait Mat group that ensued with Advaitanand at it's head after Sarupanand died, as a bogus mission as it were - with a self-proclaimed but unrightful leader.

I would love to know what actually took place, but the more I enquire, the more that I am frustrated, since the 'split' has produced two distinctly different camps with conflicting versions of events. ( NB. Early DLM literature merely briefly dismisses Advaitanand as a scoundrel imposter who ran off with mission money or some such words.)

I spoke to Professor David Lane a while ago (he is a quite well-known scholar of Indian religious groups) who referred me to the book which I now have in my possession. Prof. Lane told me in an email that he too met an old mahatma (of Sarupanand I think) who remembered that Shri Hans had been chucked out of an ashram for sex or some such scandalous stuff. Lane rightly commented that you can't believe everything you hear in India.

Taking what Akhand Yoganandjitold you into account, and since the Advait Mat biography goes into such extraordinary detail about Sarupanand's daily life, and DLM conversely seem to have rather little to offer as historical documentation of Shri Hans' past with Sarupanand, it would seem possible, indeed even likely, that Shri Hans, although maybe a devoted and beloved follower of Sarupanand, essentially went off and did his own thing at some stage - possibly even unaware that Sarupanand had appointed Advaitanand or even that the former had died.

This is obviously speculation on my part, but, I put it to you, probably a reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from the paucity of facts that we know from all the sources which we have at our disposal thus far. It seems to me the most logic conclusion to derive from the documentation and reports.

It seems to me that in the interests of accuracy, some attempt to seek out and question living members of Advaitanand's and Shri Hans' followers, or other people who were around, would be appropriate before jumping to conclusions as to what actually happened back then. If possible the best result would clearly be to find and interview people who witnessed these events who were more impartial observers.

Also, do you happen to know who Akhand Yoganandji's guru was after Sarupanand's death? or even more recently?

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:29:11 (GMT)
From: Patrick
Email: None
To: Patrick (Formerly Anon)
Subject: Important correction - sorry I boobed.
Message:
By the way my book says it was 'Vairag Anand' not 'Advaitanand' that Sarupanand made his successor - that was my mistake - sorry -I am by no means a scholar and these names get to you after a while.

So let's get this straight - it says Vairag Anand.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:11:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Patrick (Formerly Anon)
Subject: Excellent letter, Anon!
Message:
Either the server or this site was so slow yesterday that I didn'
t get a chance to read this. But this is really good work. Excellent.

You'll let us know if you hear something, huh? Great. Perhaps CD was right about not being too hasty criticizing Geaves who may, like CD himself, have an honest, open enquiring mind. We'll see.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:13:23 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Patrick (Formerly Anon)
Subject: good Anon, maybe you can help him out..nt
Message:
ghkdhg
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:14:24 (GMT)
From: Tallahassee Lassie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Quiz-Time
Message:
Here's a little poem by one of my favorite Indian poet-saints/
masters -no, it's not Kabir- who lived during the Moghul reign
in India:
' A cup of Wine and flowers in the garden,
That is our home, the dwelling of a happy mind,
Sayest thou those who drink are drunkards?
Thou art right, but 'tis intoxication of another kind.
Thou callest me a madman? Thou art right;
But I object to being called a devotee,
For I love Wine and that is all.

Madness of the Heart is the height of Wisdom;
The Confusion of Love is beyond logic's comprehension.
Can an ocean be contained in a jar?
Can the Master be God? Can a man be the Lord?
They say it is imagination; let them say so....'

any correspondence with a contemporary poet-saint/master
is, of course, purely coincidental...

Question: What is the name of that medi-EVIL saint ???

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 15:58:32 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Tallahassee Lassie
Subject: Quiz-Time - Hey TL, what's the answer? {nt}
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:24:58 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Tallahassee Lassie
Subject: You know how to spell Tallahassee so ...
Message:
. . . are you in / from Tallahassee? I received Konwledge there in 1972 from Fakiranand. Is there a 'community' there now? Email if you wish.

Sorry, I don't know the answer to your quiz. But don't let that stop you from posting more. I was going with Rumi but he was Persian.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 14:21:05 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Tallahassee Lassie
Subject: I'm Rumi nating on this one .
Message:
it's not Kahil Gibran is it? that well known alcoholic, but he wasn't Indian was he?
Kelly who has the same birthday as Shelley
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:22:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Tallahassee Lassie
Subject: Shri Pissedagain Ji (nt)
Message:
hic
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:33:55 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Shri Mark Knopfler
Message:
As I sit here listening to What It Is from Sailing To Philadelphia I wonder why you keep saying Dire Straits is the most appropriately named rock group. Please enlighten me, oh great one.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:11:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: I just think they're crap Steve.
Message:
inane rock and roll that never gets going.

I prefer the Trashcan Sinatras, DJ Shadow, Miriam Makeba, Abdullah Ibrahim, etc.

Anth your brother in legs

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:44:59 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Industrial Disease Is A Classic
Message:
That and Sultans of Swing and Money For Nothing are the songs I like.

I go down to Speaker's Corner I'm thunderstruck
They got free speech, tourists, police in trucks
Two men say they're Jesus one of them must be wrong
There's a protest singer singing a protest song - he says
'they wanna have a war so they can keep us on our knees
They wanna have a war so they can keep their factories
They wanna have a war to stop us buying Japanese
They wanna have a war to stop Industrial Disease
They're pointing out the enemy to keep you deaf and blind
They wanna sap you energy incarcerate your mind
They give you Rule Brittania, gassy beer, page three
Two weeks in Espana and Sunday striptease'
Meanwhile the first Jesus says 'I'd cure it soon
Apolish monday mornings and friday afternoons'
The other's out on hunger strike he's dying be degrees
How come Jesus gets Industrial Disease

Gotta Love It

Steve

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 19:27:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: OK, I begrudgingly admit
Message:
that the lyrics are better than your average pap song, but what is the line,
'They wanna have a war to stop Industrial Disease' about?

It reminds me a bit of that crap Barry Maguire 'protest song' in the 60s, 'The Eve of Destruction.'

For lyrics, try the Trashcan Sinatras,

'The hands of the clock give me a round of applause as I fall out of bed.'

and,

'Let's sing a lament, the world isn't round, it's twisted and bent.'

Sorry Steve, gotta go and put them on.

Anth, 'Lord give me strength to face another crazy day...'

Now there's a proper band.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 15:31:01 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: OK, I begrudgingly admit
Message:
that the lyrics are better than your average pap song, but what is the line,
'They wanna have a war to stop Industrial Disease' about?

I believe that the drug that was available in 1982 when the song was written is the key to understanding that line and that the drug is no longer available to unlock the key to its meaning. Next time I talk to Mark Knopfler I'll ask him which drug it was.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:29:50 (GMT)
From: Tallahassee Lassie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Shri Pissedagain Ji (nt)
Message:
wrong!
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 12:20:23 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: No more premies
Message:
This is from Amaroo 2001.

For delegates who only require transfers, a 4 day return coach pass operates from the Ipswich Transit Centre to Ivory's Rock Conference Centre (The Ipswich Transit Centre is connected to the Rail Station).This is available over the days of the event. Times will be advised upon confirmation of the event schedule. Pre-payment is required and bookings can be made directly with Travelworld Nerang. The cost is AU$80 per delegate.

There is a lot of info on both EV and Amaroo.sucks regarding this event. Has anyone secured a site map yet, or am I gonna have to go to one of those crappy video thung to get it?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 18:11:08 (GMT)
From: Premieji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: No more premies
Message:
Thanks, Salame. I love you!!!!! Smuaks
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:58:59 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: the menu at amaroo
Message:
Hot food shops will serve Thai, Italian, Asian, Indian and seafood meals. And three Australian food outlets will have such food as hamburgers, vegetable burgers, steak rolls, roast beef, roast pork and chicken. And, of course, chips.

And here I am , being a vegetarian over half my life to the point of starvation. What fucking happenend. Didn't he said no meat, eggs and mayonasse. So now it's OK. OH I know he never said that, It's the stincking Indians that told us not to eat meat. Well fuck this, tomorrow am looking for the biggest piece of stake and eating it. And by the way are they serving alchol and smokes (pitty about the smoke though, gave them up, how about condoms.

So there you go, they are expecting 4000-5000 idiots to come in an over 50,000 meals to serve. That is a lot of shit that has to go somewhere. I wonder what the Planning Services at Ipswich Council have to say about that. These are two phone numbers to call in case you life nearby, 07-3810-7857/07-3810-7884, otherwise you can e-mail the council, check it out.
Ipswich Council.

Has anyone figured out Who the hell Jeeps Nominees share holders are yet or is it gonna be me agian that goona dig up the shit?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 09:03:50 (GMT)
From: DeProGram
Email: not given
To: everyone
Subject: The new rules
Message:
Apparently if you keep giving M $$$, you can smoke, fuck, fart, drink goats blood and defacate to your hearts content! He does not even bother to put on a good facade any more. He must figure if your still swallowing this crap after thirty years of being burned you must be a complete moron, so why bother?
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 12:51:43 (GMT)
From: me again
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: What is the Link to the Brisbane courier article?
Message:
Please post the url if you know,

Thank you.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:58:06 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Yo! anybody up?and No I'm not drunk!OT(nt)
Message:
dddddd
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:02:01 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: send me an emule
Message:
Hi Bags

If you want to chat wiv me - we could natter on MSN messenger if you like - just get a hotmail account - then send me an email : loafji@yahoo.com - and I will put you on my contacts list and we can talk if we are both around.

You would be more than welcome
Loaf

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 11:02:20 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: I have no life! I guess I'll go to bed!OT(nt)
Message:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzz!
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 11:19:10 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Sweet dreams Barry (nt)
Message:
zzzz
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:38:26 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: New page on EPO reg EV's status
Message:
Elan Vital (very) Questionable Status

Church ? Charity ?

A lot could be added to that page. Anybody wanting to work on this ?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 15:49:41 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And even more documents on the issue
Message:
Why they NEED to be a Church

All this excerpt from one of the 'BEST Of Forum' threads Is this a Church I see before me?

Thanks to Rob ...

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:52:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: what are the reqquirements of a charity??
Message:
this bears on the charity commissions in UK also. can you post the criteria as well?
i think rev rawat has shot himself in his lotus foot with all his backpedaling and revisionism...
he was doing better when he had satsang, service, meditation, community centers, unity schools, mahatmas, initiators, instructors, human to human knowledge sessions, publications like and it is divine, hans yog prakash, etc.---
in other words, all the trappings we clung to as our premie lifestyle, that we have expressed a nostalgia for, right here, at one time or another!
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAROTFLMAO
I COULDA HAD A RELIGION!
HEE HEE HEE...
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:26:01 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Scamaroo and Latvian Night neck and neck.
Message:
Hi Everyone,

My Aussie moles have reported that registration for the 'mush in the bush' lecture, at Scamaroo, from Captain Rawat, have gone into double figures.

Fifteen premies have so far registered for the event.

This is the same number as those who have requested a meal reservation for Latvian night in London on March 10th.

It's neck and neck at the moment, but it's possible there will be more people at Latvian night than at Scamaroo. Pundits point out that five premies are waiting for news on a remortgage so they can afford to stay on the campsite in the bush. This is balanced by two ex-premies in Wimbledon who haven't made their minds up about the Indian meal in London yet, plus, we've lost Jethro's reply, so we don't know if he'll be there or not.

It's going to be close. Watch this space.

Anth the gourmet statistician

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 14:02:48 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's March
Message:
You said it's gonna be out in March, well, were is it? and don't pretend you don't know what am talking about. Well in case you are a bit *****, am talking about the newspaper article.

When are you going to repent and go back to being a good pom?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:14:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Be patient salam,
Message:
we didn't say which March.

Anth the used car salesman.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:59:09 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: you ripped me off man, where are my brothers,
Message:
and uncles?
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 19:55:47 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: hold your fire comrade
Message:
There's supposed to be a big magazine article out sometime this month. I'll ask the person who helped them if he knows the date it's going to be released.

Anth with your brothers and uncles in the pub

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 11:19:04 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: AJW
Subject: I'll have the crispy sacred cow, chips and spam...
Message:
Sorry Anth, I've had an over-busy week and forgot to confirm my restaurant booking. Can you add my name?

Also, Kelly, Tim et al. I'll email properly tonight.

JBH: I'll email too about that pint...

Nige the Social Animal

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 11:21:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You'll be happy to hear...
Message:
...that the Standard is winning the day.

We'll have lots to talk about.

Anth I guess it doesn't matter panir any more.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:09:24 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It doesn't Matter panir to me either anth
Message:
Its all just cheese and peas. Hardly a meal in itself, how about a nice steak and kidney pie, or some kippers and eggs, and don't forget the side of beans.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:13:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Side of beans?
Message:
Why not eat the whole bean? Why just the side?

Side of Anth

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:27:59 (GMT)
From: Brian smith
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: the sides are the best part, add a little daddies
Message:
sause and you are really in for a sick treat
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 12:33:24 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The Swallows are flying north
Message:
Hi Anth,
Scamaroo indeed!! I have the standard reservations about this!! Twenty so far on the Latvian Indian reservation. Maybe more for the Pow Wow later.
Cryptically yours
Kelly
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 12:18:00 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: AJW
Subject: Latvian night about to pull ahead..
Message:
by 2! You'll be getting an email from another ex. This is a great thread, Anth. Keep up the good work.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:25:30 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: So what is K good for(from below)
Message:
So according to pig boy, if you get K, you may or may not need a psychiatrist. You may or may not feel happy/content/satisfied most of the time. The last I knew he was claiming that K allowed you to access something within you that was already there. He never was able to say what it was. He was a lot better in saying what it wasn't. I know it's an experience beyond words.

He is so obviously full of shit. How could I possibly have fallen for his lies. Why? My latest theory is that I bought an easy way out. The K was sold as simple. I knew I wanted more than drug experiences. I wanted something that was permanent. I wanted to experience LOVE. I wanted to be happy.

The reality of my almost 25 year involvement was that I got some buzzes from S, S, M and Darshan but all they did was keep me coming back for more....seeking a permanency, hoping for a permanency of experience.

It never happened for me and being one who likes to gamble, I'd bet it never happened for anyone. That was the original promise most of us got sucked in by...

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:35:15 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: So what is K good for?
Message:
K is useless and meaningless the way that Rev Rawat teaches it. If you don't accept the urug as your Master then it won't work. Rev Rawat's whole modus operandi is to place total emphasis on his role as Master and he does not know how to teach kriya yoga which is what K is. If you want to get something out of K without the bratguru then you have to have a proper kriya yoga teacher.
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 14:32:32 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: So what is K good for? Nothing according to Rawat
Message:

Vol. 2 - Issue 44, Mar. 1 2001

Daily Edition

Without the Master, Knowledge makes no sense

Edited excerpt, Maharaji in Kuala Lumpur, 17th October 2000

Only one thing is guaranteed in a day.

What is guaranteed in a day? When you return, your wife will be waiting for you? That's not guaranteed. If you're lucky, maybe she only stepped out to shop. What are you guaranteed? Your husband is going to come home every day from work? What are you guaranteed in a day? Your children will stay there? What are you guaranteed in a day? Your business will be there? The only thing that you're guaranteed in a day is you can be fulfilled. That's it. That's all. Nothing else.

You want to be fulfilled? Without the Master, you cannot be fulfilled. Why am I saying 'Master' instead of 'Knowledge'? Because without the Master, you can't have Knowledge. Without the Master, Knowledge makes no sense whatsoever. None. And therefore, listen. Listen to what is being said because what is being said is for you. So you can also experience that joy in your life.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:14:01 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: So what is K good for? Question for you Pat
Message:
You indicated in a couple of earlier posts that you revealed the techniques to some of your friends or family.

If you care to elaborate, What was their experience?

I also saw the techinques illustrated in a book years ago, I was appalled at that time that so sacred a ritual be dared revealed.
I now think that someone may have a better experience getting them that way. A lot less concepts about this master business to deal with anyway.

I recall the methods described in the book with much more detail and clarity than the hurried and hushed knowledge session version as well.
Too bad that I already had k then, I could have saved myself years of bullshit.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 20:18:59 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Question for you Pat
Message:
Hi Brian,

In 1983 I showed my mom the techniques. She said: ''Oh, that! You don't need techniques to just be quiet and feel god inside.''

I did the techniques for two years before I got K and have always had problems with the emphasis on the urug. This just eventually blew up to the point where I could not stand it any longer and I left.

Kelly quoted in her post above how the Bratguru inisists that HE is more important than K. What bullshit. He knows nothing about Dhyana (or kriya yoga) and pushes the guru-worship thing which may work fine for Indians and the more simple-minded PWKs but is an insult to intelligent human beings.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:08:34 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks Pat
Message:
your illustration confirms that the Goob has little to nothing to do with experiencing or diseminating knowledge.
The fact that he can sit on stage now and with the wave of his hands thousands get it all at once is yet another indication of how far removed he is from the process.

It is all about him being a supernatural diety and guru worship than it is of having a practical experience today, Just another religion.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:12:13 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Seeking
Message:
The path of Knowledge keeps one perpetually seeking.

Many of us seek knowledge. Completion. Understanding. M promised us this. However, after initiation, even though you have officially 'received Knowledge,' completion (enlightenment) is put on hold. FOREVER! You are always seeking something beyond your reach.

You cannot ever attain the status of the Master. Ironic, as we know, considering His lack of attainment.

The truth is, it is not impossible to become liberated, if that is your primary desire. However, being voluntarily enslaved to a lost soul like Maharaji is not going to help you much.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:25:50 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Seeking
Message:
I'm not trying to be a smart ass but what does liberated mean? Does it mean not giving a shit about anything? Not looking at yourself as an individual identity? How can anyone go beyond speculation ?

Maybe yes, maybe no....

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 11:18:12 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Liberation makes you go blind.
Message:
Hi JTF,

Indeed, what is 'liberation'?

Throw it into the bin with all that other spiritual claptrap-'God realisation,' 'Nirvana,' 'Samhadi,' '1000 petal lotus opening,' 'Oneness with God'.

If somone asked me to describe the experience of 'Liberation' in my life, without hesitation, I'd answer, 'The feeling I got when I left Captain Rawats cult.'

It's been lingering very pleasantly for the past two and a half years.

Anth bursting into a Phil Ochs song.

'What's that I hear now, ringing in my ear?
I've heard that sound before.
What's that I hear now, ringing in my ear?
I hear it more and more.
It's the sound of freedom calling, calling up to the sky.
It's the sound of the old way a-falling,
you can hear it if you try.
You can hear it if you try.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:03:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: I'm with you, JTF
Message:
Just what is liberation, a plateau of personal freedom you never come down from? I doubt such a place exists. Maybe if your brain chemistry is permanently altered so you never have to come down again, but for most of us, I think we just catch glimpses here and there. I think it's wiser to accept that's probably the way it's always going to be. This way you don't have to torment yourself striving for something that can never be. It's an up and down rollercoaster ride. There have been times I thought I'd never come down again, and than I did. Now, when I'm having a good day, I just relish it, knowing full well that tomorrow I might be right back in the muck again, and when I'm back in that muck, as I inevitably have always found myself, I just say, 'Oh well, big fucking surprise this is, huh?'
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 16:25:37 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Liberation: Horseshit or Horsemeat?
Message:
Maybe this is one of those things, like abortion, that will always be fruitless to discuss. Claptrap or the sound of one hand clapping?

Me, I'm standing up for Liberation Theology. No, not the Marxist poverty fighters, although I prefer them to the Pope.

Liberation to me has to do with consciously fucking with normal dysfunctional consciousness thus opening up a fresh new vision of reality. It happens, and it happens to feel good. It doesn't make one coldly unable to feel feelings. Yes, there is a little distance there, but more balance, more pure intensity. Less 'noise.'

There's nothing morally better about pursuing such a vision, but neither is it a self-deluding way of avoiding life as it is.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 16:53:11 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Liberation: Horseshit or Horsemeat?
Message:
Gregg,

You're a zen man, right? Isn't zen just about being conscious, in the now? I think that's what zen's particular brand of liberation is. So, in reality, all that's required for liberation, according to zen, is just a consciousness of now, or, if you please, a consciousness of consciousness, since consciousness is the one thing that's always in the now.

I myself find the world to be a little brighter, more vibrant, when I am more fully aware of my own awareness. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to strive for a permanent state of being along those lines. That's like an alcoholic trying to quit drinking for the rest of his life instead of just trying to get through the day. You put undue pressure on yourself if you try for too much.

It's better to seek liberation in small doses; like just try for a few moments, now and then. It's more manageable and enjoyable that way. Looking for a permanent state of being is just presenting yourself with this huge mountain to climb. It's nice to dream about, but who ever makes it to the top?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:39:20 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Liberation: Horseshit or Horsemeat?
Message:
Can't argue with that. The self-inflicted pressure to 'make it to the mountaintop' is obviously antithetical to what the whole spiritual path is supposed to be about. Trying to achieve something that is at this point only imaginary? Sounds pretty stupid, and it's what we did as premies.

But a hunger for liberation isn't a bad thing if it drives one to work at being more aware. Just like a thirst for alcohol isn't a bad thing if it drives one to buy a case of locally-brewed beer.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:30:53 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: An odd liberation story
Message:
There was a woman in my neck of the woods who apparently 'woke up' permanently. She had been a Maharishi follower, and then this thing started happening to her where she felt this total beingness overtake her and dissolve all personal self. At first - for many years as she described it (I met her once) - she was terrified. Then she got in touch with Advaitan philosophy and realized that she was awake, not crazy.

Then she started holding satsang, and some of my friends went, and were very excited and inspired. After a while, she couldn't stand it any more, and withdrew from everybody, and then she turned out to have a BRAIN TUMOR and she died!

The question on everyone's lips was 'Was her permanentized awakeness just some brain abnormality?'

Thanks for the great thread, guys. I'm all for liberation meself, as an ongoing opening - a sort of living on the edge between the known and unknown, where all the fresh and creative stuff happens. Liberates me from the boredom of my looping addictions. But as for all those 'perfect, right and done' concepts that Anth listed - well phooey!

Love Disculta

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 19:12:18 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Disculta and Gregg
Subject: I am all for liberation
Message:
I respect the definitions of liberation given by Disculta and Gregg. These are not my definitions, but they are credible to me because these two people have credibility. Their definitions are self created, not dictated by someone else, like Captain Rawat.

Not everyone here discarded the spiritual search when they realized Capt. Rawat was a fraud. It seems to me these exes went on to seek a much more authentic understanding of themselves as a result of what happened with Rawat, and that we ought to respect that decision.

Gregg, tell you know who I am doing very well.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:07:14 (GMT)
From: David
Email: fcs75@hotmail
To: Everyone
Subject: A writers request for information
Message:
I am a writer working on a fictional work one of whose characters belongs to a cult. I am interested in corresponding with current cult members or ex-cult members willing to disucss their experiences. If you are interested, please contact me at FCS75@hotmail.com.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:45:24 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: David
Subject: So what brings you here?
Message:
and what have you written?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:50:28 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: David
Subject: Lots of info in Journeys section - look here
Message:
Journeys
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 18:05:55 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Double bind re education
Message:
In the early days education was frowned upon. The Goom had no respect for higher education or professionalism. So people dropped out of school, left wonderful, fulfilling careers, left training programs mid-way, etc. One woman was about to graduate as a pilot and left it all. Someone else was one quarter away from finishing a four-yearvjourneyman electrician program and gain union memberbership and was transferred to another city by Pranam Bai and couldn't complete his program. A few managed to go to college AND be in the ashram (Susan Stiffelman) with special agya.

A lot of bright, creative people were crippled financially, psychologically and careerwise when the ashrams closed. It was a long time ago, but the psychological programming was intense and outlived the ashrams.

The double bind is that The Goom encourages and uses the talents of people who have developed expertise in their fields. They are honored, they are often making (and contributing) a lot of money (so they get front seats). They either came in after the programming was over, weren't subjected to it much during that era, or had family programming that was stronger than The Goom's programming. But many of those who were in the ashrams and loyal throughout the years have struggled and struggled and are frustrated 'underachievers.'

The double bind is real even to this day. Any suggestions on how to reprogram the programming?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:53:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Two things Been There
Message:
Hi Been There,

A couple of things come to mind after reading your post. You ask, 'Any suggestions on how to reprogram the programming?'

Like Paul, I don't think it's about reprogramming. It's two and a half years since I quit, and it's been a constant period of unravelling and unwinding something that's been tangled up for years. It seems to be a matter of letting things unravel naturally, rather than replacing them with something else.

The second point was about your education. It's never too late. However, you don't really need to go to college to learn about something. It depends what you're interested in. I love history and haven't studied it officialy since I was 16, but because I've been reading about it for a few years, and doing the odd bit of archaeology, and nosing around here and there, I've satisfied my desire to learn about how we got here- which was what got me interested in it again after leaving school.

Maybe it's time to hone down your academic ambition. Ask yourself, 'In a perfect situation, what would I really like to do?'

Then see if you can do it in an imperfect situation.

Anth, who has found the forum a great place to unravel.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 19:39:16 (GMT)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Double bind re education
Message:
I don't think it's programming about education specifically but the general programming that says NOTHING is important except knowledge and M. After years of hearing and believing that careers, families, social/political issues, etc. were meaningless and irrelevant, many premies (exs) found/find it difficult to make the transition. Consider that in M's world everything exists for only one purpose--to serve him (and of course realize knowledge). Jobs exist only so that premies can make money to come see him and to give it to him. Nothing has any value outside of him. Divine Narcissism.

The hidden message in this programming is that you (the premie) are a worthless piece of shit and you should check your self esteem at the door. You don't exist outside of your 'relationship' with great one. This is amazingly destructive. My suggestions are:

1. Get therapy
2. Stay connected to ex-premie.org
3. Get out and do things and learn to
open up to experience--whatever it is.
I'm sure others here have numerous other suggestions.

Paul

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:30:06 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Suggestions?
Message:
When I posted the above I hadn't read the posts down below by Nigel, Joe, G and Disculta who discuss the exact same thing. It was just synchronicity.

Anyway, it's obvious a LOT of people curtailed their education, learning and careers as a result of M's (and his initiators') messages about being in your mind and not doing anything other than serving Him and going to programs.

I'd still appreciate hearing how others have dealt with these interruptions and losses.

Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:01:13 (GMT)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Suggestions?
Message:
In a nutshell, I've been working my ass off for the last decade. My last vacation was in 1989. I took my habit of hours and hours of devotion to guru gollum and transferred it to working for others. It made them rich, and I learned the hard way about unconditional trust. In 1995 I swore off ever working for a boss again (except as a contractor), and now 6 years later am finally getting to peek over the top of my little hill. Hell, I might even be able to vacation next year. One thing about education these days- you can get it if you want it, and probably for a lot less than you might think.
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:01:46 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: As usual I have something to say...
Message:
A LOT of people curtailed their education, learning and careers as a result of M's (and his initiators') messages about being in your mind and not doing anything other than serving Him and going to programs.
I'd still appreciate hearing how others have dealt with these interruptions and losses.

The way I dealt with it was as follows:

When I left the ashram aged 25, I basically went into hyper-drive to pick up where I had left off. Actually in some ways I was doubly motivated. At 25 I reckoned I was just still young enough to make a career as a musician which is what I had always wanted. Although I was still a premie I had enough common sense to see that in order to achieve this I needed to stop giving Maharaji all my money and keep some for myself. So from 1981 onwards I gave very little money and felt this was appropriate and that it did not affect my 'knowledge' experience or feelings of devotion.

I think if I had undertaken a full reality check on Maharaji at this point I would have been putting myself through too much. Instead I just went into some sort of denial and got on with my life as pragmatically as I could -still giving some respect to Maharaji and meditating. Indeed I provided Maharaji with a good many soundtracks to his videos in the eighties. As a matter of fact 'Visions' paid me to do this on at least one occasion -so I took on this new strange more professional role and felt connected to Maharaji more than ever, especially since he now even knew my name!

I was luckier than some because my father died shortly before the ashrams closed and he left me £10,000 which I used to buy recording equipment. I moved back to my mum's house where I was welcomed and set up a studio in the dining room. I knew that I had pretty much missed the pop star boat so I reckoned I stood a chance at doing soundtracks etc. So I just worked really hard and built up the business. If I hadn't had the money from my father's legacy, I would undoubtedly have had a much harder time getting going.

I know plenty of premie's who have gone back to education in their thirties and become qualified and go on into various careers. Sometimes I think that if I had got going earlier I would now be a lot wealthier and I feel some anger that if that possibility had not been taken away, I could now be relaxing a bit rather than still sweating my guts out every day to pay for my family etc. All the same, I try not to dwell on such thoughts as I could still win the lottery tomorrow, and who knows, I may not have used my time so wisely had I not been a premie.

I confess that I do begrudge Maharaji's overt and unneccessary opulant wealth simply becasue I would judge that those that gave it to him are on the whole suffering some hardship as a result.

In retrospect I think that Maharaji should have offered some financial support to his dedicated flock when the ashrams shut -even if it was just a token of apppreciation for their sacrifice. As I say, I was lucky, I had a supportive family to help me - others were less fortunate.

I observe that a lot of premies who have spent years doing service and who then leave for whatever reason (often with disillusionment of some sort) tend to go through a period of self-imposed isolation , of re-adjustment. They don't want to think, discuss or have any involvement with Maharaji, and they plunge themselves into their work and their new life. This was what eventually happened to me when I started to question things in M's world and stopped enjoying being a premie. I used my work as a place to withdraw to.

It's ironic that now, premie's accuse me of being obsessed with negativity about Maharaji. I point out to them that they still liked my company when I was in the denial, not-wanting -to-talk-about-it phase. That was acceptible. In that phase I never said a word against Maharaji, I was effectively in this shocked state of just subconsciously needing to distance myself from Maharaji's influence and enjoy life from my own perspective and get back to what I really felt. I was taking a break. That was acceptible to my premie friends.

What is not acceptible is now that I have regained some inner strength, and have resolved to face these issues and come properly to terms with my past , my conclusions are ..surprise, surprise...totally unnacceptible!

That is, I suppose, why premies and Maharaji are so adamant that if you don't like this knowledge then you should 'Walk' (to quote Maharaji). They are most indignant and threatened that others who trod the same path as them, and embraced the same beliefs, should not only find fault, but feel compelled to come back and criticise their world - disturb their little party. But guess what? You cannot expect to lead people astray for years these days and remain unnaccountable -not in this society anyway!

I am actually enjoying this phase of re-establishing truth in my life and I post here because I enjoy it! It feels like a perfectly worthy thing to do and I believe that this site is addressing a real 'need'. Premies lurk here because, although they may find the atmosphere here often too explosive for their delicate constitutions, the chemistry here is ironically expressing some home truths that they would not hear elsewhere. In short they know it's true.

I feel that this forum is imbued with real spirit - dare I say Revolutionary Spirit - and I am proud to be a part of something that can have such a liberating effect on the lives of those who like me, were once effectively enslaved by Maharaji.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:45:29 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Great post Patrick. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:08:19 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: As usual I have something to say..As usual I enjoy
Message:
reading your posts Patrick. It is ironic that when I first came to knowledge in 1972 I was a Musician. I played Bass/Sang with a Japanese Blues singer on the Portland scene. Back then a working band did fairly well and the act I was backing was controversial enough to create a buzz around town so we stayed busy and it beat the alternative which was a day job. I was living a great life doing what I had always wanted to do.

About two weeks after M came to town in June of '72' and I heard satsang for the first time, I abruptly quit playing music professionaly, dropped everything to follow M to Montrose. I walked out on the band after the Saturday night gig and hitched a ride on Sunday to Colorado. I left the band scrambling with only 3 days to find and rehearse a bass player to play the next week. I also left my young wife and 3 kids hanging with no real explanation, I was just obsessed by M, my youngest son was only 1 month old.

I look back at how I felt no remorse in just completely abandoning all of my responsibilities and family and compulsively chasing this kid all over the world. I guess I justified it by thinking that he was the Lord, and whatever bridges that I burned or shit I created in my life that affected other people if done on his behalf would not have negative ramifications. I was sure that somehow all sacrifices made and pain caused would turn into rewards and blessing by the grace of GMJ.

I have to admit that this action ultimately caused a painful split and divorce with my first wife, and separation from my kids. And it wasn't exactly easy to watch the band that I had quit come on TV when they made their first television appearance and read the reviews in the paper from time to time. Oh yeah, they made sure that I heard about the success that followed after I left.

Fortunately, I had used the GI educational bill, I was 24 had been to colledge, english and literature minor, major in business. The problem was that I already had children and the ashram would not accept me. I was really distressed about being rejected for ashram acceptance; in hindsight I see it as good fortune. However, I was allowed live in various premie houses intermittently between 1973 and 76. At one point I actually had my estranged wife and kids there with me in the householders premie house in an attempt at reconciliation but that only made things worse, she halfheartedly got knowledge, hated the premie house, the food and the premies, ran off, got into drugs, fell in love with a non premie, moved out with him, found Jesus and for years we fought over religion and custody of the kids.

I was able to salvage a very successful career in sales and business in spite of being ravaged by the demands of the cult and the need for survial of me and my kids. I later married another Premie woman but the demands of business and my kids that I had custody of then drove us to divorce in about three years.

About ten years ago I started playing music again with my number 3 wife who is a very talented vocalist. It took me almost 20 years to complete the cycle of what I had given up to follow M and realize how much I loved and missed playing music. I was far too rusty and had to relearn most everything, the years had corroded my ability but I soon got good enough to gig regularly again, mostly on week-ends and for the love of it, plus the extra money buys some really great gear.

I can absolutely relate to what you went through in your distancing period Pat, that pretty much describes my phase now. That is going to change soon as M is coming in a couple of weeks and I will not be available to the community so that will set some tongues to wagging.

Thanks for your usual imput Patrick, I read all of your posts and look forward to your responses

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:02:04 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: As usual I have something to say..As usual I enjoy
Message:
Brian,

Thanks for sharing your story. You had an interesting ride of it, fortunately it sounds as if you didn’t get too burned and your story has a happy outcome with singer wife number 3! It is rather strange that so many of us here are musicians of some sort. I am not sure whether that says something about musicians or not! Maybe we need to express ourselves more intensely or something.

All the best
Patrick

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:19:43 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: yeah right Patrick / go to bed
Message:
and I can just see you expressing yourself more intensely, look out world.
We still keep musician hours too, do you see what time it is?
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:34:00 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Important correction
Message:
The CD in me wrote:

I feel some anger that if that possibility had not been taken away, I could now be relaxing a bit rather than still sweating my guts out every day to pay for my family etc. All the same, I try not to dwell on such thoughts as I could still win the lottery tomorrow, and who knows, I may not have used my time so wisely had I not been a premie.

Bollocks! That is just the kind of 'maybe you would have been a junkie and died if it wasn't for Maharaji saving you' crap that I totally refute as a heinous suggestion. I sound like well... like CD! -'Maybe this, maybe that!'

Maybe BOLLOCKS!

Let me rephrase that...

I feel considerably angry that if the opportunity for a successful career during those critical years of my youth, had not been taken away, I would certainly be enjoying a much better quality of life now as are others of my age! I wouldn't just be an averagely well-off musician, I would be a filthy rich one!

Furthermore I am absolutely not about to forget that I was robbed of an irretrievable part of my youth, which I would have UNDOUBTEDLY used more wisely had I not been brain-washed into being a premie.

That's better. (rubbing hands with satisfaction)

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:49:44 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: To Been There: Suggestions?
Message:
Sending empathy mostly -don't have very specific suggestions. I'm doing education 25yrs late. I know I don't have the same career opportunities as a 20 yr. old. I try (with varying degrees of success) to trust that synchronicity you were talking about, follow my intuition (which, amazingly, seems to be alive and even functioning after years of being smothered to death by M.)and keep a strong sense that my efforts will bear some fruit... it does so far seem to be working! I am also finding the process of fimding out who I am (ie without K)very interesting - and my education is invaluable for that - the more I know who I am the more I feel I can 'contribute something to the world' (instead of removing myself from it!). Best of luck. M.W.
PS I'm finding that a very good homeopath is doing wonders for me - gradually peeling off the layers of crap I have been wallowing in and helping me regain self esteem - the latter an important part of finding a 'path'/career in life.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:48:39 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Dealing with the losses
Message:
Well, I think people try to do the best they can.

Some opportunities are just lost and you can't get them back. There is just no way you can get your 20s back. If you wasted them in an ashram, instead of doing what normal people do, like develop education, careers, relationships, etc., well, you are just going to be about 10 years behind. ***

I know for me, I tried to take the anger I felt and put it into constructive things, like career and education. It was very motivating. But I was kind of paralyzed for a couple of years after I left. I was just kind of overwhelmed with how duped I had been, and how I walked away, literally with nothing. I even lost most of my friends. It was pretty amazing, to think back on it now.

I kind of immersed myself in culture for awhile, all the things I missed, like musical performances, film, reading lots of books, travel and hiking in the mountains. And a really important thing for me was trying to repair the damage to my relationship with my family.

And what I really loved was PRIVACY. I hadn't had PRIVACY for a decade when I left the cult, and it was great, just to be able to have my own place, to not have to answer to anyone, to just be an adult, instead of some kind of regressed child, which I was in the cult.-*

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:16:56 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: More suggestions: read, think, learn (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 07:20:55 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Everyone.
Subject: Thanks everyone.
Message:
Thanks everyone for your helpful comments.
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:00:27 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Want two more cents?
Message:
Hi Been There.

I left college to move in the ashram. I asked MJ if I should and he didn't exactly say yes or no (this was on his first visit to UK) but I felt that the answer, for me, was yes. I should drop out of my degree in studying to by a psychotherapist. Rushed out to tell my academic father on the phone - silence!

Didn't read books or do anything with my brains for years. Gradually the cult eroded my being, as I described below. Emotionally and physically I became quite ill. When I reached outside the cult for help (therapy etc.) I quite quickly shifted back into a quick catch-up mode. I had missed important things like Watergate and lots of music (that seventies music movie - was it called Almost Famous? that came out recently was filled with music I never heard!). I hadn't been to a movie in a decade.

The thing, for me, was that out of my very wounding in the cult came my new emergence into the career and education world. I raced around, despite being ill, doing all the courses I could find on integrating mind body and spirit. Became good at it. Do it for a living. Somehow after I got escape velocity that allowed me to leave the cult, I gradually got into more and more reading. I now read voraciously and have to keep moving into larger houses to house the books. And I'm writing a huge book much of which is based on chaos theory. But I never went back to school in the straight academic sense. I come from a family of academics, and wasn't impressed with the wisdom of academia.

Sometimes when something seems to be a block, it can be the very key to getting you unstuck. For example, perhaps if you feel great passionate resentment about having had your life taken hostage, you could write, sing, play music or dance or something about that, and end up getting more of a life than you had in the first place. I really do believe in the regenerative potential of a human life. Don't allow that greedy dysfunctional man the power of holding you back. I'm not saying that he didn't, or that it was your fault - he had power and abused it. Yet I have found that there are many paths to evolve myself in a worldly way when I am determined enough, even though I missed the boats of health and youth and my degree program and grant, etc.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 17:18:08 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: email response from Satpal's representative
Message:
I emailed Satpal's website thanking them for their recent bios of Shri Hans and Mataji. I mentioned that I was a former follower of Prempal and I noticed that their site lacks any mention of Prempal. I received this email in response:

'It is nice that you have gone through biography of Shri Hans Ji Maharaj and Shri Jagat Janani Mata Ji. Regarding Prempal Singh Rawat we don't want to say anything because Shri Mata Ji, the patron of the Society has denounced him long back. We don't believe in mudslinging. It is for his then activities that we cut our relations with him and removed him from organisation. It is left to everyone to assess him and decide for himself whether to follow or not to follow.'

The email was signed.

I responded and thanked the writer for his response, but I again urged them to consider making some statement about Prempal. I told them that 80,000 people had received darshan from Prempal in India in the last couple of weeks, and therefore many people are being deceived. I also mentioned that Prempal's lifestyle has not changed, that he now has a mistress and a 7 million dollar yacht, etc.

I suspect that they will remain officially silent about Prempal since it is an embarassment to their own mission.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:20:45 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: email response from Satpal's My response from Sat
Message:
I was entertaining the idea of taking a vacation to India this year and I also contacted the Manav Dharam site to take a side trip there here is my response.

Dear Brian

It is glad to know that you have planned to come to India and also to ashram.

I would like to know about your program that how much days you want to stay and also about what type of accommodation you expect. In e-mail you have not mentioned that how you acquainted with the institution. Whether you have come in touch with any devotee or attended Satsang.

Please e-mail us the above details and your address, so that we can arrange it accordingly.

Thanking you,

—Basant Lal

The problem is my wife had her heart set on going to Greece as we had discussed earlier so it looks like India next year instead. It was an easy decision, The Villa on the Agean Sea sounds so much more inviting than the Ashram on the Ganges. I am not sure that the Sat's people will be quite so welcoming when they find that I was once affiliated with the kid bro anyway.

I will keep you all apprised of the developments

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:13:04 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: email response from Satpal's representative
Message:
I wish you would have told them about his crimes in India where they are more relevant than here such as the illegal cover-up of the manslaughter and about Jagdeo. They might be interested in pursuing those as a way to put a rival out of business.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 15:05:07 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing..
Message:
Studies have shown depression to be widespread. Many (or most) people, at some time in their lives, have experienced periods of bleakness and despair that run deeper than the more general feeling of being 'fed up' or 'run down'. To be truly depressed is to be unable to experience pleasure of any kind, or to conceive of a time you will again be happy. Nobody's best efforts to bring you out of it will have the slightest effect. You are also liable to lose the will to live.

A couple of factors appear significant in determining whether or not the sufferer makes a quick recovery - or recovers at all.

First is the question of whether the depression is ‘situational’ or not. That is, are there clearly identifiable causal factors (which the sufferer recognises as being the cause, such as sickness, redundancy or bereavement) or did the condition seemingly arise 'for no reason at all'?

Secondly, whose fault is it?

The best prognoses seem to be for sufferers whose depression is situational, and for those who don't blame themselves for the condition; the worst prognoses for suffers whose depression is non-situational and who also see themselves as responsible for the way they are feeling.

Thus, for anybody who is depressed I can think of no worse place to be than in a cult - though the message you will hear from those around you is the opposite. David Smith, during my 'Knowledge' session even informed aspirants that once the world had found Margie there might be no further need for psychiatry - Maharajji will 'free you from your mind' (hmm... looking at David Smith, this last statement is not so hard to believe).

As I see it, cults by their very nature will persecute depression sufferers and exacerbate their condition. It comes with the territory. Take the 'situational' factor: whatever the real-life event that brings on the understandable and legitimate depressive feelings, the cult will move the goalposts and redefine the situation. Where, say, anger might be the natural response to an external stressor, the cult will teach you that 'anger, desires, attachments rob us of eternal life...' and that one should simply ‘go within’ and ‘surrender’ to the slings and arrows of outrageous bastards…

Thus, the situation you now need to deal with is your inability to experience that bliss, that love, that feeling etc. Since you cannot experience those feelings because of the bloody depression, you're in a catch 22: what should be a situational depression becomes, in reality, non-situational and therefore more deeply engrained. Perhaps a state of affairs which resembles Seligman’s ‘learned helplessness’ – more of which in a moment…

If the origin is non-situational (say, viral or mineral deficiency) the depression is similarly redefined by dogma to be what you might call ‘cult-situational’, and satsangservicemeditation the exclusive medication. Again, the sufferer fails to recover; the depression remains untreated.

Either way, the onus of recovery is placed in your own hands, but the cause has been obscured, and along with it your best hopes of recovery. Which, in turn, affects the second diagnostic factor: whose fault is it?

Why, yours of course. Had you been 'in that place', the world would not have got to you in the first place. And if you can't see your way out of the depression right now, you can't be 'making that effort', 'surrendering completely’, can you...?

I don't think it remotely sensationalist to suggest that many premie suicides - and there have been many premie suicides - might have arisen for exactly the reasons I have outlined. Ordinary, everyday (ie. serious, yet commonplace) depression 'diagnosed' as a need for greater practice of Knowlegde; innocent sufferers named as guilty parties through their failure to get happy via Knowledge.

(Remember that Monty Python line, where the judge tells the accused: 'I sentence you to be hanged by the neck until you cheer up..!')

Seligman, a behavioural psychologist (using a pretty cruel experiment, it has to be said) identified what he called ‘learned helplessness’. Dogs confined and given repeated electric shocks will, at first, try to escape. They quickly learn that escape is impossible and must then resign themselves to further ill-treatment. Even when a means of escape is later provided, the dogs will not bother trying to escape. A depressed person in a cult may cease to see the genuine escape routes (treatments etc.) from their suffering, thanks to the psychological barrier placed by the guru. The Master’s contemptuous references to ‘things of this world’ is in itself sufficient for closing-off the exits, for are not doctors, therapists, social-support workers all ‘of this world’ ? Mere people ‘in their heads’ who lack that ‘understanding’..?

It is irresponsible of the guru and EV not to at least address the potential consequences of the -‘absolutist’ quality of Maharaji's teachings. Especially back in those early LOTU years where the manipulation through stick and carrot, fear of hell and promise of miraculous transformation is so blatant they now seek only to keep the past very well hidden.

In the light of recent allegations surrounding Maharaji's off-stage behaviour, premies (such as Turner) have argued valiantly the case that lifestyle choices are matters of personal morality, and that the Master should not be judged by the criteria we apply when judging others. I disagree, but let that pass for the moment...

Personal morality is one thing, social responsibility is something else. If premies commit suicide, the cult should acknowledge its occurrance (beyond the mere cancelling of banker's orders). They should keep records and investigate whether the incidence is greater among premies than the wider population. They should think about causes. Even if they only suspect so much as a link, they should take such actions as are in their power to make sure it can’t happen again.

(An FAQ on the ELK site, perhaps: ‘No - Maharaji never claimed to be the Lord and he also strongly recommended proper treatments and therapies for all forms of unhappiness and mental distress wherever ‘Knowledge’ was deemed inappropriate…)

They should also pack up and call it a day. Depression is a very good reason NOT to be 'enjoying life', and it is an insult to depression sufferers to even imply otherwise. Enjoyment of life is NOT universally possible with each happy new breath. And if they know so already, they should bloody-well say so...

(Sorry for that cheerful wee rant!)

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:26:07 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: We should send some of this stuff to ELK...
Message:
Thanks Cynthia, Disculta, Anth and others below for kind words, and - especially - some great, fascinating follow-up posts. It's amazing that just by letting off steam on an issue that's been bugging me there's this whole pile of closely-related testimony just waiting to pour out of ex-premies round the world, seemingly just as keen to let rip on the subject.

I wonder whether we should send some of these pieces to Enjoyinglife's 'Expressions' section..?

No faked identities this time (a la Trojan Horse adventure), I mean just genuine, sincere expressions of what 'Life with Knowledge' can be like. Because that's exactly what they are.

No, of course ELK won't publish them, but I wonder what the accumulated effect might be on the site hosts if they received enough of these contributions. They're editors right? - and editors have to read at least part of the stuff they're sent. And never forget that every premie is an ex-premie-to-be, provided they live long enough. (We might even plant the seeds of doubt which would ultimately help them on their way.)

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:20:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing..
Message:
i have had depression for most of my life. it wasnt diagnosed until i was into my 20s and thanks to mj and cult belief, i wouldnt take meds for it cuse they were worldy..i struggled into my 40s until i was willing to srrender and try them. i just started on wellbutrin today, in fact.


the way the cult deals with depression and mental illness today is like an insurance company. they flat out wont accept you as an aspirant if you have a ppre existing condition. no crazies wanted. it states clearly in the aspirant manual that only sound, level, stable people with solid jobs, good lives and sane heads are to be accepted as potential initiates. others are to be discouraged and deflected from coming or hoping to ask for K.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:42:02 (GMT)
From: John Alden Ins. Co.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: So Janet, the burning question of the day is....
Message:
Hi Janet-

Following up on your statement about how the cult is like an insurance company today, with screening new applicants, and putting out disclaimers about results etc...

Would M himself qualify today as a candidate?

I guess he would because he's wealthy.

But if you take away the wealth factor, does this seem like a guy who is stable, willing to follow, mentally healthy and free from any addictions or pursuits that might take him away from the path?

Is he ready to listen and follow without questioning?

Would he give some of his money to someone or something else, besides himself?

Would he give some of his time to serve someone else?

Would he watch the 'same ole same ole' week after week and pay $100/month for it?

Would he tell his friends and family about it?

But the biggest question would have to be:

Is m ready to practice the k everyday, without fail, for a minimum of one hour?

I don't know about that last one, that's a tough one, and I'm not sure he has the discipline for it...

Maybe he's just not ready, and needs some more satsang...

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:39:48 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Depression: The irony is that many PWKs
Message:
in SF are in treatment for depression or other mental problems and that it is quite fashionable for the thoroughly modern PWK church lady to be in therapy.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:59:17 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing..
Message:
Thus, for anybody who is depressed I can think of no worse place to be than in a cult - though the message you will hear from those around you is the opposite.

I'll tell you what makes it so tough, having been in those shoes, myself. I came to Maharaji severely depressed. I was led to believe there was this beautiful place within me that I could discover with Knowledge. So I received Knowldege and began practicing it, as well as atttending satsang regularly. But none of it helped. In fact, it made it worse, because now I was around all these, supposedly, blissed out people who were swearing by the power of Knowledge and the grace of Maharaji. But for me, it was just more of the same. No matter how much I meditated or attended satsang or did service, my depression clung to me like a wet blanket. And meditation was probably the worst. Since depression happens within, and Knowledge has no power to ease depression, what you're doing, essentially, is using meditation to dive deeper into it.

Some of the worst, most empty feelings I have ever experienced in my life have been while practicing Knowledge. I couldn't understand that, because I had come to believe that Knowledge was going to take me to that beautiful place within which I could never find, and hearing Maharaji, especially, prattle on about it made it sometimes unbearable. When's this going to happen for me was the story of my life as a premie. When is it going to be my turn that I experience all this bliss, this joy, this enlightenment? It never happenned. But I never faltered in my faith that someday it would, not until a couple of years ago when I just gave up. What a release of a burden that was, let me tell you.

But I can see where some people might go the other way, where they might not see giving up as relieving themselves of a burden, but as an ultimate defeat. And in those feelings of hopeless defeat, maybe some did take their lives. I don't know, but if you believe in something so deep and it doesn't pan out for you, and you think there's nothing else, what else is there for you to do? Have there been such people? Honestly, I don't know. I know premies have committed suicide, but for what reasons, I couldn't say. I'm sure part of the reason, definitely, was because Knowledge wasn't working for them, because if it was, suicide would have been the last thing on their minds.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:36:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Phew!
Message:
That's a powerful post Nigel.

A couple of times on the forum the topic of premie suicides has come up. It's a sad subject. I knew a couple of premies who took their own lives. I've since discovered that there have been quite a few more. You've offered the first explanation that sheds any light on this.

Like you explain so well, a cult is no place to get support if you're depressed or suicidal. In fact a cult is no place to get support for anything, other than lightening you load in life by emptying your wallet.

Anth wishing it would have been different

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 19:23:03 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing..
Message:
Premies were about the most depressed group of people I have ever been around. There was also a great amount of psychosomatic illness, which I think came from depression, and the feeling that one couldn't cope.

A depressed person in a cult may cease to see the genuine escape routes (treatments etc.) from their suffering, thanks to the psychological barrier placed by the guru. The Master’s contemptuous references to ‘things of this world’ is in itself sufficient for closing-off the exits, for are not doctors, therapists, social-support workers all ‘of this world’ ? Mere people ‘in their heads’ who lack that ‘understanding’..?

This is true for me. Painful, but true. Here is a painful story, for me.

I received knowledge in my senior year at university, where I was on full scholarship and at the top of my class. I heard about knowledge from somebody I met in a health food store that was run by premies. I came from a large, Catholic, working class family where education was valued, but I had to basically work for it myself, without much family resources to rely on. I had a relatively small trust fund from my grandfather, but of course, I turned that over to the Maharaji, and that is another story.

Anyhow, right around the time I received knowledge, I was notified that I had been awarded a full-tuition scholarship to Georgetown University law school. Well, you can guess what happened. Right after graduation (there is another story here about premies who came to my graduation and what they did that was really amazing and awful), I moved into the ashram, and wanting to serve the living God, I blew off the scholarship and law school, believing that I had the greater opportunity to serve the living incarnation of god, and that furthering my career ambitions were a much, much lower priority, so low in fact as to be meaningless. My parents were devestated, but being the liberals they are, they told me I had to make my own decisions.

So, I went to COLL in San Antonio, and then to a couple of different ashrams, and then came 1976 a few years later, and we were being encouraged to leave the ashram by, it turns out, even Maharaji himself. So, I re-applied to law school, was accepted, (this time the University of Illinois), and was even given grant money to go. By this time I had no resources whatsoever, so I thought if I went to a state school and got some grant money, I might be able to work my way through law school. So, this was the plan, but I was very hesitant to do anything that wasn't directed by Maharaji.

But then, Maharaji began his long, dark, devotional period, said things like what he said at Atlantic City about the need for intensive care, and the MIND of pursuing your own desires, even extending to relationships and marriage, let alone graduate school, and the rest is, again, history. I stayed in the ashram, and in the cult for another 6 and a half years. When I got out, I was almost 30.

So, by that point, by the late 70s, I really couldn't see any way out. In a way, if 1976 hadn't happened, I think I might have gotten out sooner, because my thinking for myself, for may own advancement in 1976, was seen in the Maharaji cult as error, being in my mind, confusion, and Maharaji played that to the hilt for the next 7 years, at least.

And it was just like you said. To the objective observer, I should have been able to walk away at any time, but by that point, I think I was so beaten down by the programming, and Maharaji's continuous use of fear to keep us in line, that I couldn't see any alternative. I was like one of those dogs given electric shocks, or like G, being in a prison you think you can leave, but then you know you can't.

I was clearly depressed during the last couple of years I was in the cult. I recall feeling suicidal quite a lot, especially when I was in Miami, and later in San Francisco. Of course, I blamed myself. It couldn't possibly be that knowledge wasn't working. It was that I was confused, didn't try hard enough, etc. At some point I gave up and just saw no alternative other than to just stick it out. I really, by that point, had no self-esteem left, or at least very little. When a tyrant like David Smith came through and further belittled people, well, that about did me in.

But then, I made some remarkable non-premie friends, who were awfully patient, and I think they sort of deprogrammed me. They were interested in me as a person, and were not interested in Maharaji or knowledge. I think I got a little bit of self-esteem back, and I, eventually, gradually, I left, but not without a lot of pain and struggle, and really, it's something I am still dealing with.

Depression, in my experience, makes you immoble. It makes you stuck. It makes you think there is just no way out and that you are helpless. I think the cult created, enhanced, and encouraged that kind of experience in a lot of people, not just me, and since the practice of knowledge was the answer to everything, that kind of mental problem wasn't even acknowledged, let alone dealt with in any responsible way.

When I look back on that period, it just seems to dark, so claustrophobic, the memories are in slow-motion, like I was stuck in mud, or frozen, like walking through Jello.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:29:39 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, you know what's ironic?
Message:
One of the last times I watched a tape of Maharaji, he was encouraging people to become successful. Paraphrased, he said, if you want to start a business, go ahead, do it, and do it well!

What a fucking creep! Huh? The first thing I thought was: ''Yes, he now wants premies to have money so they can give it to HIM!'' I'm so sorry you suffered so much. It was his fault not yours. I'm proud of your achievements in your life and your contributions here are valuable to me.

Be well,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:02:39 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: blowing off education
Message:
'I blew off the scholarship and law school, believing that I had the greater opportunity to serve the living incarnation of god,'

I curtailed my education for the same reason. It wasn't considered 'service'.

The thing about depression is that it's beyond sadness, it makes being sad seem like a joyride. It's lifelessness, paralysis. It's better to be sad, maybe the sadness is saying something, like 'Get the hell out of this hell hole!' But we weren't supposed to be sad you see, it's not 'spiritual'. In the cult, depression was called 'detachment'.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 19:58:59 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Depression: The unbearable darkness of believing..
Message:
Hi Joe,

The whole time I was in Berkeley from '76 to '81, I was pursuing a graduate degree in Chemical Engineering. There were a handful of other premies at the University also. True, learning was not emphasized in the premie community, but I was never approached by anyone in authority and told that I should quit my studies. I never heard of my fellow student premies being told so either.

Of course, I never joined the ashram and was probably never seriously considered ashram material either. In your case where did the pressure not to pursue graduate education come from? Directly from M? From Mahatmas/Instructors? From ashram premies? From yourself? What form did it take?

David

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:18:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Pursuit of other than service and dedication
Message:
It's very simple D, and I'm surprised you don't see it.

If you listen to what Maharaji said in Atlantic City in 1976, you get what I'm talking about. He said, in no uncertain terms, that you had a choice of either dedicating your life to the Perfect Master, and have the supreme opportunity to be involved in following the Perfect Master, just like the people who were around Jesus Christ had that opportunity, you could either do that, or do something else. If you believed Maharaji was the Messiah, what are you goint to do? ESPECIALLY, when at the same time, Maharaji was denigrading relationships, careers and education. What are you going to do? Would you reject dedicating yourself and following Jesus Christ?

No, nobody told me to quit school. Nobody forced me to do that. Yes, I decided to do that myself, but I decided to do it based on fraud, because I believed Maharaji was who he said he was, I took what he said literally, and I believed and trusted him.

If you were in graduate school in the late 70s, or really doing anything other than being in the ashram, trying to do 100% devotion and surrender, well, you were kind of a spaced out premie. That was the mindset, based on Maharaji's teachings at the time. And, again, if you believed Maharaji was the Messiah, why would you want to be a spaced out premie?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:02:46 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Pursuit of other than service and dedication
Message:
Joe,

I don't want to get you riled up. I think you feel a little regret for paths not taken. I'm not trying to rub salt in your wounds.

Maharaji makes a general statement: 'Dedicate you life to the perfect master.' And someone, probably on the initiator or ashram level, interprets what that means in specific terms. Someone decided that meant no College and that was that. But someone else could have taken the same statement and interpret it as 'I'm going to Medical School and become a Doctor so I can better serve Maharaji.'

At about the time you were talking about, Dec. '76-Jan. '77, I was giving up on DLM. I think the heavy devotional theme was scaring me off. I thought about dedicating my life to Maharaji, but then I said 'naw, for the level of experience, I'm having it's not worth it'. I had this idea that all the other premies were having this knock-down meditational experience which proved to them, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Maharaji was God. I thought, that's OK for them. They are following their experience. Given their incredible cosmic experiences its natural for them to want to dedicate their lives. But that's not me. It's just not happening. So I will go on with my own life, by my own path. I stopped going to satsang for the next 3 to 6 months, trying to make a permanent break.

Would you believe someone was God if they just told you so? Wouldn't you be sceptical? Even back then when you were younger, wouldn't you demand some kind of proof? I thought the proof was the incredible experience people were having in Knowledge sessions. But my Knowledge session was sort of uneventful, so I remained sceptical.

Yeah, I think 'spaced-out premie' pretty much descibed me, and I was treated as such. I'm not saying I'm better than you, just different.

I developed a healthy disrespect for ashram premies and their satsang. Sorry if this offends you, because you were one. I realized that I was getting all of my concepts about Knowledge from satsang. It's not about concepts, right? But I was getting all these concepts from satsang by the truckload and what was worse I found myself believing them from shear repetition, not because they were proven to me or they were my direct experience. I would just get up and leave. I couldn't take it anymore.

That's when I resolved to realize Knowledge myself without anyone's concepts in my ears, just the pure being, the state of no concepts.

David

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:28:53 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Pursuit of other/M was quite clear about...
Message:
not having anything to do with the 'world'.

He constantly made fun of and mocked university degrees and intellectuals,careers, family,relationships,money etc.

Instructors constantly told premies that the only thing they should do was to give everything to m,and of course the only that was possible was through the ashram...no other way...

D Thomas, you may have missed a lot of that, if you were on the fringe of a community, but if you were in the thick of it, they would get you....in many communities, they would travel through and ask the community coordinator which premies were 'fence sitters' concerning the ashram, and specifically target them with 'satsang', all about surrender through total dedication through the ashram...

I know all about this. Believe me, you were not considered a 'total premie' if you were not in the ashram.
This was talked about in ashram meetings with m, or at local ashrams with the instructors, and it was always said that no one could really make it, except for the surrendered ahsramers.

I was in the ashram for one year, 1973.
After that, I resumed my education, and started a career as teacher and counselor.
Every community I lived in, being single, I was singled out as a 'fence sitter' and hammered with 'satsang' about joining the ashram.
One day Alan Imbarrato, possibly the biggest asshole ever to join the ranks of DLM, cornered me and satsanged me about the ashram, in front of a room full of people.
I not only out duelled him on an intellectual level, but told him that I would NEVER join again, and it was predominately because of people like HIM....

That was an empowering event for me!

So, please, lets get the facts straight....the ashram was THE ONLY WAY, as preached by m and everyone on down, for years...

LA-ex

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:24:21 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: It was all bullshit, anyway
Message:
Whether you rolled up your sleeves and made a commitment to the ashram life, because you heard it said that was the only way to go, or you were a fringe premie who never got infected by that virus, and just meditated and went to satsang, everybody who chased Maharaji's dream was doing just that, chasing a dream, doing whatever they thought they had to do to catch it.

I myself was a fringe premie who was never put under any pressure by anybody to join an ashram. I wouldn't be surprised if people like me were actually in the majority. If it makes you feel better, I'll just consider myself one of the lucky ones. But I didn't receive Knowledge until late in 1980, and by that time it was almost impossible to get into an ashram, anyway. I know; I tried, and was told there was no more room in the inn. I guess I should be grateful.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:59:49 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: It was all bullshit, anyway
Message:
Right, Jerry,

Really, if you received knowledge in 1980, you did miss the big ashram recruitment campaign, which in my recollection, peaked about at the end of 1979. After that, the only people really recruited for the ashram were people they needed at places like DECA, and that's when the divorce mill was happening, etc.

But if you were a single person with a job in a community in 1978 or 1979, you certainly would have been recruited for the ashram.

Joe

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:27:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Alan Imbarrato
Message:
Now come on LA, don't you think you are being a little hard on poor Alan. He was just doing his blissful service to terrorize premies like yourself. Actually, Alan does deserve it, although I heard that he told Maharaji, personally to 'fuck off' and later apologized to premies for some of the awful stuff he did to them. So, if that's true, that kind of raised my opinion of him.

As you know, I was in DC when Randy Prouty and Alan Imbarrato were there. That was 1979, at the very height of the 'get everybody into the ashram' campaign that Maharaji was pushing at the time. Frankly, I think it was because he needed money, and needed bodies for things like the plane project.

I can recall talking to Randy about how he had identified all the likely candidates to harass into moving into the ashram, and getting their money and valuables on the way. DC was one of the richest communities, with a lot of premies with decent jobs, so it was a prime place to try to pluck off new ashram premies. I'm sure your name was on the list.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:33:19 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Alan Imbarrato/Jon Knight
Message:
I love OUR LORD MAHARAJI but Knight is a very serios asshole.


Even those of us who still attend what you call ...cult events,still know Knight to be a serious asshole...he's a joke but don't let him affect your feelings of LORD MAHARAJI

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:50:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Same Old Story
Message:
Maharaji makes a general statement: 'Dedicate you life to the perfect master.' And someone, probably on the initiator or ashram level, interprets what that means in specific terms. Someone decided that meant no College and that was that. But someone else could have taken the same statement and interpret it as 'I'm going to Medical School and become a Doctor so I can better serve Maharaji.'

No, this isn't true. Maharaji was very specific about these things and initiators for the most part didn't just make things up, they repeated what Maharaji said to them. Again, if you listen to what Maharaji said in Atlantic City in 1976, or in the many ashram meetings I attended with him, it was crystal clear that if you wanted to dedicate in the ashram, education was out.

Sure, no one would be preventing you from going to medical if that's what you wanted to do, but the point I was making is to do that, you would have to ignore Maharaji's very strong statements otherwise. Look, the ashram was the means Maharaji created for total dedication. And you couldn't be in the ashram and go to medical school, and Maharaji wrote the ashram manual and gave specific instructions on how it was to be run.

D, you were very lucky to be so skeptical. And in retrospect I should have been more demanding of proof. That is very clear. And as has been said here lots of times, premies who stayed on the fringe and didn't give up everything to be devoted to Maharaji, in other words if they either didn't believe, or didn't take literally what Maharaji was saying, well, they probably have less to be angry about.

I think the people who got the most ripped off, were the ones who were the most idealistic, the most willing to jump in head first and go all the way, who, once believing that Maharaji was the Messiah, which he reinforced everytime he sat up on that throne and has us sing Arti to him, decided there was no reason to compromise and go for it. Unfortunately, there were quite a few premies like that.

Sure, we got concepts from satsang too, but then we were given directive by Maharaji to never delay in attending satsang, and I would submit that most of the 'concepts' we got were from Maharaji himself. For the most part, the premies just repeated the stuff Maharaji said.

Maharaji, being the slime ball that he is, took advantage of us. He did nothing to dissuade the wide-spread belief that he was God, and, in fact did lots to reinforce that belief, thus resulting in the damage he caused a lot of people. Just because he doesn't do it anymore, isn't much of a redeeming quality.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:49:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Same Old Story
Message:
Joe, you said: ''He did nothing to dissuade the wide-spread belief that he was God, and, in fact did lots to reinforce that belief, thus resulting in the damage he caused a lot of people. Just because he doesn't do it anymore, isn't much of a redeeming quality.''

There may no longer be pressures to join the ashcans and generally there is very little pressure at all BUT he still ''does nothing to dissuade the wide-spread belief that he is God.''

The most obvious example of this is the requirement that aspirants go through a ''preparation'' lasting for a minimum of 5 months during which time they are brainwashed into seeing him as god. It is never said but it is implied and implied and implied. Ask Connie or Charles or any of the new exes.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 05:52:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Same Old Story
Message:
Well, that's what I thought, but if that's true, why does Charles keep saying it's all different now? I don't think it is really that different at all.
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:56:56 (GMT)
From: Charles S.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Same Old Story, remade for a much wider audience..
Message:
It IS different, in that M. is casting his net much wider, and trying to remain as low-key and uncontroversial as possible. He is never talked about as being God or the Messiah.

He talks about himself in such a way that, if you were inclined to think he was god, but just was not saying so, you could believe that. If you were inclined to believe he was NOT god, but some sort of precious teacher, you could believe that, too.

Remember, in India where the Rhadosoami tradition comes from, the people often believe in semi-divine beings, people who are both fully divine and fully mortal at the same time. They can have all the mortal weaknesses, and still be ''God''. Do you realize what leeway, what wiggle room that gives M.?

He can have it both ways, and he does. I have heard him over the years, say various things, like, he is just a human being like the rest of us, he is going to die one day, he is made of the same stuff as we are, that if you are in the desert and your car breaks down, because the fan belt broke, and there just happens to be an unused fan belt lying on the side of the road that fits your, car, that isn't Maharaji's grace, that's just plain luck! Maharaji does NOT come to people in their dreams to tell them to do things, he is here in real life in the real world. If you have worldly problems, you need to seek worldly solutions for them. EVERY human being in a combination of the infinite and the finite. I could go on and on about stuff he has said that implies he is just an ordinary guy who is gonna die one day like the rest of us, but he has this wonderful thing to share with people.

He also implies that there is more. That he is somehow special. In calling himself the Master in recent years, he has gotten bold in this regard. He still never calls himself god. But he quotes Kabir a lot, talks alot about Masters generally, tells Indian stories, quotes scriptures, talks about longing for HIS Master (he seems to get by with a dead one), quotes the scriptures a lot, which he never used to, I really hated it when he started that. It's like there is this ''understanding'', that is never addressed directly, that he is something special, but it is never identified. After all if you have ''that understanding'', you don't need to talk about it, right? And he would rather premies not talk about it with each other. All the emphasis is on him. You can have it beamed into your house now, you don't need to be comparing notes with premies.

I think he wants new premies to fall in love with him, then hope they get hooked on the subtle bhakti ju ju. But I don't think it works on most westerners, the way he does it now. Not in any way that lasts. And the more he hides from his past, the more it may chase him.

What I am saying is, he is having it both ways. He is god, and he isn't. You can belive what you want. It allows him to cast a wider net. This is why when you repeat stuff he said from so long ago, it may not have as great an effect on current premies as you might think. For all the things you have printed on this website, I can think of times when he said exactly the opposite. And the things he says nowadays are quite different from the kinds of things he said to you folks in the ashrams.

It was quite shocking to read all the anti-marriage stuff here on the formum, that was said to the premies, and verified by so MANY people, too. Many of the premies have children now, and he talks to them often as one parent to another. Anyone would think he invented families. Also, the Rhadasoami tradition is a religion/cult specifically for HOUSEHOLDERS, people with families. So where he came up with all that ashram stuff for the west, and telling people not to marry, god only knows.

I read somewhere on EPO, I think it was one of the academic authors speaking, who said that when the family split happened, Mataji was very upset when her son broke from tradition. Not only because she was religous, but in fact BECAUSE she WAS religious, she also had a strong sense of morality, and she felt her son was being irresponsible, he was too inexperienced, and by going off and doing his own thing, she was afraid that people were going to be hurt. If that was what she felt, I can only say, she sure got that right.

I think M. was very young and inexperienced, a spoilt brat who was given a lot of power. He wielded it arrogantly and unwisely. Unwittingly or not, WE helped him do it. As he has gotten older, he's been learning from his mistakes, and changing his tune accordingly. But much of what he's learned he is using to hide and cover up his mistakes, not make amends for them, and to try to secure more power for himself in ways that to not expose him to scrutiny.

Joe, sometimes I think you want to see it as black or white, it is either one way or another, like, is it THIS or THAT. But truthfully, it (M., the organization, Elan Vital) is quite a muddle. It's a Relgion, a Church and a Cult, all the while claiming it's not any of those. It has a Messiah, who claims he is not. It says it has nothing to hide, yet hides a great deal.

One of Connie's first posts really moved me, where she said one of the hardest things for her to deal with, was to actually admit to herself that she was in a cult. That's no small thing, especially the way it's all set up now, so slick and ''respectable''. Most of the premies would find it very upsetting to admit to themselves they were involved in a cult. It they find new information they didn't have before, it can take a while to sink in, and be very hard to deal with. I always thought of the MOONIES as being a cult. I certainly wouldn't have joined a cult! Yet this last involvement in ''participation'' really forced some issues for me. I'm sure the increasing expense of being a premie is forcing it for many others, too.

I can't possibly explain everything I have to say in one email, Joe. I guess it is a process, and perhaps none of us will ever see everything the same way, nor should we. If this forum has taught me anything, it is that there are so many different ways all of us got involved, were involved, and different ways we left and what it did do us, and how we are getting on with life now.

And it's that last part that is really important to me. I just want people to be happy. And I think the best way to do that is help people to find their own answers. I'm just hoping that what I contribute here might just help some people to do that.

Nice, simple answers are convienent for sound bites, but real understanding is often more multifaceted and time consuming. I think that is how we can really help each other here, to share our individual understanding, and come to a clearer understanding ourselves of so many things. It's really great to see people growing and learning, people getting through stuff here. Isn't that why most of us post here? We want to feel better!

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 09:09:03 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Same Old Story
Message:
I guess Charles can speak for himself and probably will. But I think that when he says it's different now he means the same thing as Connie and Kelly and I mean. It is different. There's this whole nudge-nudge, wink-wink thing happening now.

As Connie and I discussed in another thread, he cannot come straight out and say he is god or Krishna because he has probably been given legal advice not to. The cult is now much more sophisticated and is run by lawyers and PR men. It is a lot like the Scientologists. In your day it was still an amateur set-up. It's pretty damn slick nowadays.

Maybe we'll just have to take you to see him next time he comes to SF so you can get the big picture. Of course now that he knows that the fags are up in arms in SF he may never come here again. If you really want to know what the differences are then talk with Kelly and Connie and Brian Smith and Postie and all the other new exes.

A clear picture of the current incarnation of the cult will eventually emerge on FV. Have you noticed that this active index is dominated by new posters and new ones will come everyday? The same underlying message is still the same but the overt message is different.

Most of us newcomers are a bit surprised at how little is known about the new non-cult cult. No, not surprised. Why would any of you oldtimers be bothered to find out how it has changed since you left. But if you are really curious yu will find out. The newbies will tell.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:03:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Not that different
Message:
Patrick, I think you have a mispercetion here. Recent exes have been posting on Forum V for years now. People have been continuously leaving the cult and talking about what is going on. This isn't new. I think we've had a pretty clear picture of what's going on. The only thing I have heard recently that has added to that is that perhaps it's even more dead now than I thought.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:06:30 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Pursuit of other than service and dedication
Message:
When I was in the Columbus ashram in 1974, I was given permission to transfer to the San Francisco ashram and attend college. This was because I demonstrated that I'd have a source of income while in college. Then, about a month before I was to leave the Ohio ashram for the trip to California, someone from Denver called (the name is somewhere in my old journals) and withdrew permission for me to attend college and stay in the ashram. So, this is a specific example of ashram premies being prevented from pursuing their education.

Luckily for me I decided to chuck the ashram instead of my education.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 13:06:11 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Pursuit of other than service and dedication
Message:
Marianne,

It was probably very different for ashram premies versus non-ashram premies.

What law school did you go to, if you don't mind my asking?

To hear your story, you seemed to have made a very sharp break of it. One week you were a premie attending satsang in Berkeley. The next week you were an ex-premie attending law school and not practicing Knowledge. Didn't you agonize over it, have second thoughts, look back, wonder what was happening in the community?

David

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 17:49:23 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Leaving the cult was difficult and painful
Message:
David: I wrote a long post this morning about this and it erased! Arrgggh.

There are two issues here. One is how I left the ashram. I received specific permission from IHQ during the spring of '74 to transfer from the Columbus ashram to the SF ashram and attend college. I was thrilled. I knew that few ashram premies were permitted to go to college. About a month before I was to leave, we got the call retracting permission for me to do this. I was devastated. And I felt the same sort of decision forced upon me as when I was told by Bill Patterson that I could not go home to see my mom that Christmas after my dad committed suicide: it was either what I felt was right to do in my life or follow ashram discipline. Well, I learned from that painful lesson Bill taught me -- I chose my own future over the ashram.

I had turned 18 in the Columbus ashram. I had always wanted to make a difference in the world, and having suffered tremendous emotional difficulties at such an early age, I was, painfully, wise beyond my years. I had lost one parent already. I felt that being cloistered in the ashram was preventing me from making a difference in the world, something I just knew from the center of my being that I could do. So I convinced my 2 ashram roomies to escape with me, and move to SF to go to college. They did. We had a wonderful trip cross country -- that's when I saw that headline in early August 'NIXON RESIGNS' that so elated me. I remember you saw that edition of the Rocky Mountain News too, D.

When I left the ashram, I was voting for myself and my own future. I think my father's suicide helped me to understand that I had to take care of myself, and not depend on someone else, even Capt Rawat's promise to take care of ashram premies.

When I got to Mill Valley, where we first lived, I pined for the ashram. I had many talks with the Community coordinator about going back in, even quitting school. But he was a very good guy, and became a good friend of mine, and he told me not to do it. He would've taken me back if I'd insisted, but his honest and generous spirit allowed him to dissuade me from this choice.
SF was a very nice community at this time.

What happened to me is that I worked for VISTA in the jails in SF and saw poor people every day, trying to change their lives. It politicized me. At the same time -- this is late '75 to mid '76 -- there was a big money push for the Malibu house and also a new car, that M REALLY needed. It sickened me and made me angry. Then I got accepted into law school ( New College of California: it's in my public California Bar records for anyone to see. A public interest, leftist school with heavy emphasis on criminal defense. They let me in at 20!) Law school further politicized me and pulled me away from the cult.

I moved out of the premie house when I entered law school. I still went back to see my friends occasionally, but I became an outcast, in my mind to some, because of my vocal criticisms of M's accumulation of wealth. I think I was the first very involved premie to leave this community and really make my feelings known. Premies thought I was in my mind to go to law school. What I saw was people who were never going to be able to support themselves because they were running all over the world to see M and couldn't hold down a job. This activity seemed completely at odds with what M was seemingly trying to accomplish at the time.

I am still in contact with many of my friends from the ashram, some who are still quite involved. We don't talk about Capt. Rawat. Our relationships are based on years of devoted friendship, not the cult. If they were or do read what I post there, they'd say, 'Oh, that's Marianne. She's always got her causes, and even if we don't agree with her all the time, we love her.' Maintaining friendships in spite of differences is one of my causes too.

I felt a great sense of loss when I left DLM behind. It had been my surrogate family. I was depressed and sad and wondered if I was wrong. But then I began to see what I could do with my legal studies and realized I had made the right decision. I am so grateful that I had the strength and insight to rely on my own sense of what was right for me and invest in myself, because I do make a very real difference in the world with the work I do.

That's my story.

Marianne


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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:34:07 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Time Fixes
Message:
Marianne,

Thanks for setting me straight. I think you mentioned your VISTA job before, but I forgot.

I never looked at the 'Rocky Mountain News'. My first official indication that Nixon resigned was when Jagdeo started off satsang that night in the Kittredge building: 'Dear premies, today the President has resigned ... '

I wasn't into politics then because I had a lot happening personally. It is important because it fixes me and you at a certain time and a certain location. Did you say you were in Denver when you saw that headline? Where were you staying in Denver? You didn't happen to be staying at the Divine Shelter on Race Street? It was sort of a way station for traveling premies on their way through, as well as aspirants like myself trying to receive Knowledge. It would be too weird if you did, because that would put Janet, yourself and me at the same place at the same time, yet I don't know we would remember or recognize each other.

I wanted to kill myself (this is the depression thread). But before I did I wanted to see if Knowledge was real. I showed up in Denver and wanted to receive Knowledge right away. When I couldn't get it right away, I stopped eating so that either I would die of starvation or I would receive Knowledge. I lasted three days without eating, but finally I gave up. That was the same day that Nixon resigned. It's like the theme for that day was giving up on it.

I staid there for about 10 days, in part because my wallet and travelers checks were stolen and I had to hassle with American Express to get them replaced. I finally thought 'This is a cult. I'm being brain-washed. I'm getting out of here.' I left about 2 days before I would have received Knowledge.

But you know that depression went away. I felt optimistic like there was something to live for again. A seed of something was planted so that I couldn't shut it out or stop thinking about it, despite the long months after of being outside the influence of the 'cult'.

David

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:44:11 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Where we stayed
Message:
We stayed with Gordon and his wife, who were from Columbus. Gordon was originally from England and a high ranking WPC guy. His last name escapes me (Petty???). What I remember is that he got to attend M&M's wedding, but his wife never found out about it til it was all over.

They were very nice people.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:33:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Pursuit of other than service and dedication
Message:
Joe, you may not have been directly told to stop your education but I personally know three ashram premies who were told by DLM honchos just that, one in UK and two in South Africa. They were told that a university education would develop their egos and that M thought all book learning was rubbish.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:40:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Sure
Message:
If someone was going to school, he or she wouldn't have been allowed in the ashram in the first place, or if somehow you got in, you would have had to quit school and either do full time service, or have a full time job. There was no room for education in the ashram.

So, if you wanted to dedicate in the ashram, as Maharaji was saying you should (unless you had the supreme misfortune of being married), you didn't go to school. Pure and simple.

There are a very few examples (maybe 2 or 3 people max) of ashram premies who were allowed to go to school, but that was through specific agya, and I personally never met anyone who was given that agya.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:04:32 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Some did continue their
Message:
education in the ashram.

Where I was about 5 people were going to university. They were already there, before k. They were approved to continue, not directly by m.

My take on it was that they possibly had another source of income, maybe via their families, to put into the ashram coffers.

The qualification they would eventually get would give them significant earning potential.

All finished their degrees.

C

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 01:03:11 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Extremely rare
Message:
I was in the ashram for almost 10 years, and lived in ashrams in 7 different communities and I never met even one ashram premie who was going to school. I was either community coordinator or ashram housefather in most of those communities, and going to school in the ashram simply wasn't allowed. However, if there was some kind of rare case where somebody had an income and could produce an income and go to school, that might be technically possible, but I personally never heard of it. What country was that in? I don't think it happened in the USA, at least I never heard of it.

And of course, for most people, paying for school, AND paying an income to the ashram was simply out of the question.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:26:52 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: it wasn't in USA
Message:
Joe

I agree it wasn't the usual situation. That is probably why I remembered it.

I agree with Charles and Kelly about giving accurate, impartial information when known.

All the best
C

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:12:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: education not considered 'service'
Message:
I was told by a high-ranking ashram premie that going to college was 'not service', i.e. that I should quit school, get a job, move into the ashram, and fork over all my money.

Later when I was sucked into ashram heaviness, I pressured a 'community premie' not to continue college. She quit partially because of me saying that. I regret doing this, but at the time I thought I was being a 'devoted premie'. She came to her senses later and left the cult and went back to college.

This kind of pressure happened a great deal. Many people stopped their education because of Rawat and the cult.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 16:50:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: learned helplessness
Message:
'Seligman, a behavioural psychologist (using a pretty cruel experiment, it has to be said) identified what he called ‘learned helplessness’. Dogs confined and given repeated electric shocks will, at first, try to escape. They quickly learn that escape is impossible and must then resign themselves to further ill-treatment. Even when a means of escape is later provided, the dogs will not bother trying to escape. A depressed person in a cult may cease to see the genuine escape routes (treatments etc.) from their suffering, thanks to the psychological barrier placed by the guru. The Master’s contemptuous references to ‘things of this world’ is in itself sufficient for closing-off the exits, for are not doctors, therapists, social-support workers all ‘of this world’ ? Mere people ‘in their heads’ who lack that ‘understanding’..?'

Several years ago had a dream in which I was in a dimly lit prison. There were no bars in this prison and the front entrance had no doors. I was somewhat aware that there were no doors but did not walk out into the light of day. I had a feeling of anxiety about keeping myself in this prison, a feeling that although I could walk out, I would not because I didn't see the situation clearly and felt that I should not walk out.

Rawat talks about this in a manipulative way when he says 'the doors are always open'... BUT
And the BUT is one thing that keeps people in the cult. He makes it out that if you walk out the door you'll be stepping into HELL, so the doors are open BUT NOT REALLY. His power over people is through the illusion he fosters in people's minds.

In the light of recent allegations surrounding Maharaji's off-stage behaviour, premies (such as Turner) have argued valiantly the case that lifestyle choices are matters of personal morality, and that the Master should not be judged by the criteria we apply when judging others. I disagree, but let that pass for the moment...'

I also disagree. But for the sake of argument, let's assume that lifestyle choices are matters of personal morality. If so, then he had no right and still has no right to judge others about their lifestyle choices, yet he has done so BIG TIME, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE GOOD CHOICES. Here's another situation where there's an unstated, implied, hidden meaning. He implies that these choices are matters of personal morality, BUT FOR HIM AND HIM ALONE, because he's BETTER THAN US.

BULLSHIT!

Regarding incidents of depression, I think the poor diets (like insufficient protein) and lack of exercise suffered by premies were contributing factors. Yes, exercise was looked down on, even yoga exercises. He didn't say to exercise, so you weren't supposed to do it, it wasn't 'service'. Lack of mental stimulation, affection, and sex were other contributing factors caused by the cult. For some premies, the cult is still causing these factors.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 16:27:45 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Maharaji and premies' 'garbage'
Message:
Grrrrreat post Nigel!

At the risk of repeating myself, I would like to tell a bit about how and why I left the cult. I was having very, very uncontrollable emotional highs and lows as well as unexplainable illness. For BOTH conditions, I was getting the advice that 'You're in your mind, just meditate, sister.' I'm not kidding. I had somehow gotten my life into a world where everyone I knew was a premie (Miami, early 80's) and the entire belief field I inhabited was this cult bs. Because my health got so bad, and I had the means, I started going to various alternate healers, which started to reopen my eyes to other possibilities (I had been into all kinds of alternative stuff before I joined the cult). But it was my mind and emotions going down the tubes that eventually drove me to a therapist. I had so much transformation so quickly that it led me back to my pre-knowledge path and even though I was sick I got part-time into my profession of counselling and therapy, now with a very different twist. I had many premie clients around the time when the ashrams were closing. Lots of people were flipping out. I worked with instructors and PAMs and Joe Blow premies. I hadn't completely exited yet. I still thought I could straddle the line. What woke me up was the scale of human suffering that I was observing (on top of my own which I described below in my Holocaust posts). In one week I had THREE SUICIDAL people, one of whom I was called to 'rescue' in an emergency. He was sitting in a room with a knife, making threats to kill himself, and I was called to go talk him down. I successfully talked him down, and then tried to encourage him to go into therapy with someone. He said, 'No, MJ said he doesn't want his premies messing around in their own garbage.' (someone had asked him about therapy for premies). This was when I started hearing all the things that MJ was saying about therapy during those months. He would say things to Randy and other people around him as a sort of indirect method of communicating with all the premies. Because so many people were 'mentally irregular' (that's from Rocky I) and emotionally up the creek, I think from being abandoned suddenly in the ashram closings and maybe also at that time the initiator firings, not to mention the DECA slave burnouts, many people like me were starting to get interested in various techniques that addressed emotions and body and psychological stuff. Maharaji continually put this stuff down in a kind of pathetic sibling rivalry with other systems of belief. The 'garbage' quote above was widely quoted to me by premies who really wanted my help, but weren't sure if I might not be the anti-christ.

After the knife incident, along with the two other suicidal people (they all made it okay) I was incensed. I had been trying to remain devoted and a premie as well as doing my thang, but suddenly I saw that MJ was hurting people. Somehow it had been okay that he had hurt me, but my mother hen side came out when I saw how his irresponsible stupidity was double-binding all these other people. I wrote a thirteen page letter detailing what I was seeing and absolutely demanding (quite respectfully, as I recall) that he stop blocking the path for his disturbed flock to get the help they needed. I sent the letter to the right place (I had formerly been a Maharaji letter answerer and translator). never received a reply. Left the cult.

Nigel, your post is brilliant, and the whole thing about how double-binding the cult life was is quite insightful. I personally was going under with my depression and inner stress, and don't know what I would have done without therapy.

I'm really enjoying these incredible discussions about the real abuses we all underwent in the cult. I think it is very powerful in terms of our cult recovery to realize how much we actually suffered from the inner conflict generated by MJ's self-serving words. The validation is a bit of therapy in itself, in that it frees us from blaming ourselves which, as Nigel said, is the first step in unravelling this kind of mess.

This skillful trick is that, after not blaming yourself, and blaming, say, your parents who abused you or your guru who stole your soul for a while, a certain energy gets recovered and freed up. At this point in the cycle, it's quite important to go beyond the habitual loop of blame, for just the reason that it is a loop, and can actually cause the suffering to keep recreating itself along the same neural pathways. I never tell clients to 'forgive' because it is so misused - if you forgive at the wrong stage in your process, you end up locking yourself in a box and throwing away the key to your own recovery (I have worked with many people who have been in forgiveness-type therapy who have been fucked up by this). On the other hand, when you stop blaming yourself, blame the perpetrator and perhaps do some other life-affirming things, you start to get some of your energy back. What I have seen is that it is really key to use this energy towards creating WHAT YOU WANT in your life, and pouring your energy towards solutions, not old problems, and not to continuing to resist what you don't want, which loops you. Doesn't mean you don't continue to feel disgust at MJ, and also become much more discriminating about your new choices.

This is a subtle point, and I hope it is helpful to someone.

Love Disculta on a rant

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:19:23 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: A wonderful, refreshing rant. Thanks Disculta (nt)
Message:
anth the no text
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:24:48 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Maharaji and premies' 'garbage'
Message:
Hi Disculta,

Your post was a tremendous help to me, as well as all the others in this thread.

Because I was severely abused as a child, I had more than M's plateful of crap to process in my healing--I've been chronically depressed all of my life.

One thing I have learned about the blaming issue is to realize that 'It was not my fault.' When children are abused, the first thing they are told is 'it's not your fault.'

I think that this is an important piece to review because regardless of our individual circumstances and situations when we entered the cult, we were lied to and conned. That was not our fault. Whatever vulnerabilities I and all of us had at the time when we were introduced to M and K had to be deeply suppressed in order to remain ''good'' devotees.

This is what angers me the most about Maharaji. Does he not know this? Doesn't he see the damage he has done and continues to do to people for his own personal profit?

I think forgiveness is an issue that is steeped in Christianity and guilt, too. I was raised in a Roman Catholic family, and it's very ironic that in recent weeks I have felt a desire to go to church.

Well, I went to church for the first time last Sunday to attend my baby nephew's baptism, and all of that desire just went straight down the drain. I couldn't wait to get out of that building, away from the religious trappings and rituals. So I am glad that I had the chance to see (once again) that rites and rituals, cults and Maharaji, are definitely off-limits to me.

Spiritually (about religions), I feel quite confused right now, but I am not worried about it anymore.

I've discovered over and over by travelling south to Conn. and RI to visit relatives that I must remain living in a rural area. While the weather is quite cold during winter (which is long here), I have the opportunity to explore and experience the natural, idyllic beauty around me everyday.

That's what is necessary for me. I can't imagine surviving in my home state of Connecticut ever again. I was quite disoriented. So much traffic, so many negative vibes, so much overdevelopment (they've paved paradise). I actually got lost in my own home town!

That's me. Those are my needs. When I crossed the Vermont border coming home, I opened the windows of my car and just sighed a deep sigh of relief. My orientation is now mountains, trees--beauty which I can live with every single day. Sure there are always roving packs of assholes everywhere, but to be able to live here is the best choice I ever made, going on 14 years.

Maharaji always talks about the beauty of nature--just look at his videos! (nevermind:))) Yet I believe he hasn't a clue about the beauty of humans, our frailties, our limitations as people, and especially his own evil nature. Some have said that ''evil'' should become a diagnosis in the DSMR. I agree. Some people exist without a conscience, a sense of morality.

I've come to believe that he is evil and for whatever reasons he got that way, it's not our fault. I don't know if I'll ever forgive him. I would like my nightmares to stop. I would like to forget him. And even though I come here almost every day to read and post, it's amazing how healing it is here to talk to eachother, to compare experiences exiting the cult, and especially (for me) exposing Maharaji's fraud.

Thanks again,
Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 10:56:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I have a note from my mum.
Message:
Hi Cynthia,

Much of what you say rings very true with me. Particularly your attitude to religion and spirituality.

Remember at school, if you showed up for Physical Education with a letter from home, you were excempt? I feel I've got a note from God, excempting me from all that spiritual bollocks for the rest of my life.

We've been there and done that.

Anth the born again agnostic

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:35:46 (GMT)
From: Charles S.
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Connecticut refugees (OT)
Message:
I see you mentioned being from Connecticut. I am also from there, lived in Simsbury till 1979(It's now jokingly refered to as ''West Hartford, with chainsaws'' because they are cutting down so many trees). Where was your hometown?

I went back to visit recently, for the first time in 17 years. Connecticut seemed very built-up and congested. They've paved paradise, indeed. So much so, that my parents retired to rural Maine, where most of my relatives now live. Rural New England is still so beautiful. I always loved Vermont. Lucky you!

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 18:55:44 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Charles S.
Subject: Connecticut refugees (OT)
Message:
Hi Charles,

I was born in Hartford, but lived my first years in Plainville (the name describes it well). Then to Terryville, then to Bristol, on to Southington, and when I finally was able to extracate myself from my home, I lived in Hartford where I was introduced to K eventually.

Going back there last week, I was overwhelmed by the excessive overdevelopment...shopping plazas and malls are empty and they continue to build more!!!!

In Bristol, originally a blue-collar, working class town, there have never been any zoning laws as in Simsbury. At least up there they have some nice signage and zoning requirement for building codes, etc.

Having been in rural USA for so long, I was almost unable to drive around in Bristol, especially with a 5-speed SAAB (a 1987) which is a great car in Vermont. The vibs of people there are so creepy (I'm very sensitive to people), and the ugliness of the development almost makes me cry....but....that's the choices people make about their surroundings.

Right now, a big fight is going on about development in our town in VT about folks being able to build houses along mountain ridges, which will just uglify the mountains. Vermont has long been a forerunner in quashing over-development, that's why I'm here.

I know many people love the cities. I miss the things there which I used to enjoy, i.e., the theater, museums, etc.; now I have to drive longer distances to get those places...it's worth it. Burlington is not a city by any standards of ''big cities.''

I'm so glad to be home.

Love,
Cynthia

P.S. I apologize for the delay in responding...my computer crashed a couple of weeks ago, and I'm still tweaking it, figuring out all the bugs, and every time I've tried to post more than one message here my browser shits the bed!

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:05:10 (GMT)
From: Charles S.
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: Cynthia
Subject: Connecticut refugees (OT)
Message:
I remember Plainville. That's just a couple of towns down the Farmington river from Simsbury. We'd drive through there whenever we headed south, or on our way to visit family in New Britian. My mom was born in Hartford, I had grandparents there, so we visited there quite a lot, too.

I have a theory about Connecticut. I think the Greater New York area is expanding. The definition of ''suburb'' is being pushed further and further out. New Yorkers with new weath are moving out further to buy their bit of suburban peace. They have finally made it up to Hartford county.

When my sister and I visited Simsbury recently, it was not the sleepy, one-horse town we once knew. It had that busy, ''New York'' vibe to it. Soccer Moms in SUVs racing about frantically. International restaurants, boutique stores, a World-Class International Ice Skating Rink. Corn fields turned into business parks and condominium complexes, the few remaining farms being turned into fancy housing developments.

The house I was raised in, built in 1860, was torn down to build a parking lot with a drive through ATM machine. The town has a chamber of commerce now, and a new slogan: ''Olde Charm with New Excitement''. My sister and I had a good laugh about that. For us, the most charming thing about the town had been that it was so unself-aware. It didn't know it was charming. Not anymore. It's now a major selling point, a marketing schtick.

And you weren't kidding about the empty stores and malls, and all the construction to build new ones. I noticed that too, and couldn't figure out why, it made no sense.

I know change and growth are inevitable, and not all necessarily bad, but where does it stop? Where does one draw the line? Vermont is wise to contol it's growth, but the pressure to build more never stops. Isn't Vermont getting some high-tech industries now? I know Maine is. Visiting my Parents in rural Maine was a welcome relief, but the growth is happening there, too.

Even here in Califorinia, they keep building new communities, even though the state does not have enough electricity and water to supply them. But it can't ALL just become one big city, can it? We need trees and clean air and clean water. Someone needs to tell George Bush. His answer to California's energy crisis is to lift pollution controls. What a legacy to leave future generations. Shame on him.

I don't know what to do other than fight the good fight, do our part while we are here, at least try to leave the place better than when we found it. People need to live, but not at the expense of cutting off the branch on which we are sitting. There has to be better ways.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 17:03:39 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: Disculta, do you remember...
Message:
any of the specific things that m said in those days about therapy, psychology and other forms of healing?

I know that early on, in the 70's, m specifically told premies NOT to get into psycho-therapy etc., because it would confuse them.
Later, at the end of the DECA days in the early 80's, I remember hearing through some premies in Miami that he said it was OK to get into other therapies and healing modalities.
I remember he actually recommended a therapist or taking anti-depressants to some premies at that time.

I feel that the main thing that kept me sane druing the 70's was that I worked at a 'day job' as a counselor and teacher with many mental health professionals, which served as a 'balancing act' for my 'night job' as a typical premie fanatic of the cult.
I feel sorry for premies who never had a similar balance in their lives, especially in those strange days of devotion...

I was just wondering if you had specific references and time periods, concerning the m quotes.
Also, does anyone know if m or raja ji has ever been to a
therapist?
God knows they need one,or an army of them....

Thanks,
La-ex

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 17:56:46 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Disculta, do you remember...
Message:
Sorry, la-ex, I just saw your question.

I don't remember many details. I'm pretty sure it was 1984. It was a whole wave of indirect quotes via, I think, Randy and others about what MJ was saying at the Miami residence about various kinds of therapies that the premies were getting into - rebirthing and so on. The general tenor was that he disdained it all, and the only specific quote I remember was the thing about premies not getting into their garbage.

When I sent him my magnum opus letter, I said to him that in order not to risk harming hundreds of people who hung on his every word, he should officially reverse this position and let everyone know that it was okay to go for therapy, because they most definitely understood otherwise from him across the whole community. Considering that I gave him the examples of the three suicidal people, I thought it was a pretty compelling argument for him to clean things up a bit, but he didn't, at least not for a long time after that if at all (I had left). And I thought it was very urgent - premies' lives were at stake as I saw it.

This made me feel more disdain than I had ever felt.

love Disculta

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:37:41 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Has M been to therapy?
Message:
According to Pranam Bai (Kathy Sullivan), M. and Durga Ji saw a therapist (in the '80's). Durga Ji came in 'dripping with diamonds.' They never told the therapist what M. did, i.e. what his work was. After a couple of sessions M. shut down and wouldn't go back. I don't remember the therapist's name, but she had celebrity clients and wrote a book called, 'Go For It!'
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 02:28:24 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Been There
Subject: Has M been to therapy?
Message:
Been There,

The information provided by Kathy Sullivan is substantially correct. The therapist’s name is Dr. Irene Kassorla. Maharaji and Marolyn began therapy sessions with her in the later part of 1984 and continued for about six to eight months thereafter to help resolve their marriage difficulties. It is not true that Maharaji shut down and wouldn't go back after a couple of sessions.

At the time, Dr. Kassorla, who lived and worked out of her palatial home in Bel Aire, California, was known as the “therapist to the stars.” She is the author of several books including Nice Girls Do, Putting It All Together, and Go For It: How To Win at Love, Work and Play. She also hosted a call-in talk show on CNN for a while.

I don’t recall if Marolyn attended their first session “dripping in diamonds” but your report that, “they never told the therapist what M. did” requires clarification. It is true that they never told her who Maharaji was or what he did. That task was left to me, since I was the person who suggested that they seek therapy in the first place, and I was also a key participant in the selection process. Because Maharaji had publicly bad-mouthed therapy for years, and because he was a public figure, I wanted someone who had an established reputation for protecting the identities of her famous Hollywood clients.

At the beginning, they had one-hour sessions every week for about two-months. After that, their sessions tapered off to about once a month and towards the end, they consulted with her on an “as need” basis. During the first month, I met with Dr. Kassorla after each session to answer questions. It was clear that she had never worked with a guru and his wife before, and she had many questions concerning the nature of his work, his teachings, his philosophy, the culture of worship and deference that surrounded him, and questions about Marolyn becoming Durga Ji, his devotee as well as his wife when they were married. She obviously considered this information to be very relevant to their current marriage difficulties. As a professional, she never discussed with me what took place in her sessions with them. My role was to provide her with whatever specific and/or contextual information she required.

Michael

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:01:33 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: this is a MUST read post above
Message:
During the first month, I met with Dr. Kassorla after each session to answer questions. It was clear that she had never worked with a guru and his wife before, and she had many questions concerning the nature of his work, his teachings, his philosophy, the culture of worship and deference that surrounded him, and questions about Marolyn becoming Durga Ji, his devotee as well as his wife when they were married. She obviously considered this information to be very relevant to their current marriage difficulties.

Michael,

I am starting to think that the screenplay should be

'Being Michael Dettmers'

This is just surreal stuff you have to say. I just cannot fathom what this must have been like.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:04:23 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: also...shared of Soprano's huh? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 07:17:32 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Thanks Michael
Message:

Michael, thanks for the clarification. The conversation with Kathy Sullivan was a long time ago, and my memory of what she said was sketchy. I had no idea you played a role in either finding the therapist or consulting with her. That they went for six to eight months is impressive.
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:33:30 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Has M been to therapy??extrememely relevant ?
Message:
'My role was to provide her with whatever specific and/or contextual information she required.'

Are you free to comment what info she wanted?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:40:51 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: JTF
Subject: Has M been to therapy??extrememely relevant ?
Message:
Not beyond what I already said, namely that 'she had many questions concerning the nature of his work, his teachings, his philosophy, the culture of worship and deference that surrounded him, and questions about Marolyn becoming Durga Ji, his devotee as well as his wife when they were married.'
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:45:31 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Has M been to therapy??extrememely relevant ?
Message:
Thanks anyway...I understand why you can't speak completely free but I really do appreciate what you do contribute.
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:26:29 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: M went to therapy? My jaw just dropped.
Message:
That is an amazing piece of history Michael and thanks for sharing it. I do recall now that at a mid-80's program Maharaji mentioned the book 'Go For It' in a positive way. Because I was beginning to look closer at myself via 'head books', I took it as a ray of hope that M was talking about other resources. Naturally, my wife and I went out and bought the book. I wonder now if he was truly committed to the therapy and if so what revelations there were. Too bad that process only lasted a short while.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 16:06:51 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Great Post, Nigel...
Message:
Hi Nigel!

I appreciate what you said because the conflict of ''being in one's mind'' versus ''surrendering to M and K'' caused me and many other premies much mental suffering.

How could we reconcile going to a therapist or psychiatrist when the nature of such treatment would mean examining feelings and thoughts? We couldn't.

I agree that EV should acknowledge suicides and depression, but it will never happen IMO. Because K and M are presented as a panacea to all suffering in life, the resulting brainwashing prevents one from going against the teachings of the ''master.'' I don't think it would be possible for EV or M to admit that any follower would need outside help. It's plain cult dynamics.

It is a catch-22, a double bind. Even in these days of K-Lite, I can't imagine that M would ever admit he has failed at anything, nor would his inner circle.

I think the best approach is to continue to present information to premies/PKWs that the whole thing is a bunch of crap.

Good explanation of the various types of depression, Nigel, thanks.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 20:52:18 (GMT)
From: Been There
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Inaccurate info
Message:
Cynthia, K and M are NO LONGER presented as the panaceas to all suffering in life. That is simply inaccurate. However, that was the case years ago. Outside help is currently acknowledged as sometimes needed and useful, in fact, several devoted premies who are PAM's are therapists themselves, and their clients are premies. Your information is outdated.
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 03:46:07 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Panacea
Message:
Cynthia, K and M are NO LONGER presented as the panaceas to all suffering in life.

Of course it is. Even though M himself tries to claim it's not, in the next breath he'll start gushing about this wonderful, perfect place within that's readily available. If that's not a cure-all for whatever ails you, what is? Unless, it's not there sometimes, and you have to go to professional help to get you through. Is that the case? Sometimes you can find this beautiful place and others you can't? When you can, all is fine and good, when you can't, go to a shrink? Think of what you're saying, Been There. When you do, you'll agree, I'm sure, just how fucking senseless Maharaji can be in things he says. Just because he says Knowledge isn't a panacea doesn't discard the fact that it's definitely presented that way.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:06:50 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: He certainly DOES present it as a panacea -
Message:
- you're absolutely right there, Jerry

And if you, Been There, doubt that, then ask yourself why EV posted the following earlier this week

.
.

'- the key here is
to achieve the balance, and nothing will allow
you to achieve that balance more beautifully
than Knowledge.
Nothing will allow you to
achieve that balance more beautifully than
understanding. Nothing will allow you to achieve
that balance more beautifully than you - you - shrugging off
those labels, shrugging off that excess baggage and saying:
'Okay. Life, I'm yours, and you are mine. Now, let's live. Let's
exist.' Not in pain, not in ambiguity, not in suffering, not in guilt,
not in sorrow But, live this existence as it truly is.'
Maharaji in London, 14th June 1998

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:29:07 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Precisely, keep it only within the family
Message:
Very convenient.....

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:46:56 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Bait and Switch
Message:
True, knowledge was presented as panacea of all suffering, but after receiving it, and finding out that most defintely isn't the case, Maharaji used the whole 'mind' issue as an excuse for why it didn't turn out like promised.

It is hard to understand what the hell knowledge is supposed to do these days. Maharaji presents this vague idea that you are in the desert, thirsty, and knowledge quenches the thirst. It is entirely a self-proclaimed problem and solution, with apparently no effect whatsoever on any other part of your life. It's so thin, I can see why he has such a very hard time attracting any new cult members.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 21:46:51 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Been There
Subject: Inaccurate info/ legal necessities
Message:
While I was still trapped within/inside the cult, rawat did soften on the need for some to seek professional help. I was told, confidentially, that there were legal aspects involved in pig boy's softening.

This legal fear also had much to do with the need for the Rejoice Cult Events in the late 80's. If you recall, pig boy said we had been taught wrong light technique(blame it on the Mahatma's, again). No more eye gouging that seemed to be causing some problems for some avid seekers of THE DONUT.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 22:54:15 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: K is not a pschological cure
Message:
I was talking with a friend - 70'sPWK - and out of the blue they said after going to the Oxnard program something 'shifted'. This person said they were grieving the loss of Knowledge as a cure-all. Grief is a good thing if it is replacing depression / numbness. They finally got that in order to move ahead psycholgically, they had to take the bull by the horns and work on themselves and not expect that M&K were going to heal them. This may sound pretty obvious to most but a profound revelation to that person. Because of this new view of K they thought it was too expensive to go to Amaroo just for a darshan buzz. I'm guessing there are thousands of PWK's out there believing in M&K as a panacea.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:04:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: K is not a pschological cure
Message:
Hi Postie,

Was that person you talked to saying the Oxnard program caused them to start feeling that Maharaji was NOT the panacea? Or were they already feeling that?

I think programming dies hard. I agree there are probably lots of PWKs who believe that knowledge is THE answer. I mean, Maharaji sort of says that, although he hedges a lot more than he used to.

So, I ask what I asked above. If knowledge used to be the answer, the panacea, but at some point it STOPPED being the panacea, don't PWKs feel just a bit resentful for being led to believe by Maharaji that it was, with all the things they did in their lives as a result, that they otherwise wouldn't have done?

And what is left? You practice knowledge, which the solution for a problem that didn't exist until Maharaji told you it did. And it has no effect on you or the rest of your life. I mean, other than belonging to this PWK club, what is actually there?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 01, 2001 at 23:32:00 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: K is not a psychological cure
Message:
Well, this person has done a least a decade of regular therapy and I think finally realized that they never made progress because down deep they were relying on K for the 'cure'. Just my guess. So, I think this person went to the program in Oxnard knowing that they were responsible for their own emotional well being and saw clearly for the first time that K wasn't it. When I gently suggested that, in my experience, M never had addressed emotions they started defending him. The comment was 'that's not true now, M talks about the heart and how you need to be open and how tough life was sometimes . . .' so I didn't push it. But the crack is in the dike and the water is dripping through.

In a thread you started below on what our vision / imagination was, it was amazing to me how much the young Guru was a giant DiamondVision screen we could project our collective vision on. Whatever we needed him to be, he was it. It started out simply enough but M never denied those visions. He has reimaged himself over the years so what's left are four techniques and some convoluted and slyly implied devotional path. No steak and no sizzle, just smoke and mirrors.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 00:11:42 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: But Psychology can be a K cure!.....nt
Message:
vv
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 04:41:04 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: The Psychology you can't get in Knowledge nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:49:50 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: shit! where are the razor blades when I need 'em?!
Message:
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh God Help US All!!!!!!!!!
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