Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Mar 09, 2001 at 16:11:06 (GMT)
From: Feb 26, 2001 To: Mar 07, 2001 Page: 1 Of: 5


salam -:- More updates on IRCC -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:11:33 (GMT)
__ zippy -:- More updates on IRCC -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:31:34 (GMT)
__ G -:- Theory about the plane -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:31:03 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- on second thought -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:44:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Biz Jet Update -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:23:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Is this the man we are looking for -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 14:08:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Indeed, and like father like son -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 17:48:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- aircraft search result -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:15:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Sale of Gulfstream IV -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- some company info -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 18:54:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Don't M's flying toys have an HD suffix? -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Never mind on HD - old info -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 20:31:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- ^^^^^^^ SERVICE OPPORTUNITY ^^^^^^^^ -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:21:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- One of those corp records should show some PAM -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 09:23:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- G -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:04:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- No, what do you mean? -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 17:50:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- a clue -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 13:54:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- new entry dated October 2, 2000 -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:59:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Here is a list of all G-V registered 160 of them -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 01:18:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- his is leased -GV still owns it in savannah -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 03:42:53 (GMT)

Aussi Ji -:- It's my birthday. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:39:26 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- It's my birthday. Happy Birthday Aussi Ji -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:56:28 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- Thanks Brian.I don't (hiccup)dddrink much (hiccup) -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:14:52 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- An AUSpicious day. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:04:58 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- An AUSpicious day. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:05:51 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Happy birthday, Aussie Ji -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:42:38 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- Happy birthday, Aussie Ji -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:14:08 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- It's my birthday. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:08:18 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- It's my birthday. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:24:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- It's my birthday. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 14:08:25 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Hello birthday lady -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:16:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Happy Birthday -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 10:05:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- Happy Birthday -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:28:52 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Happy birthday boofhead. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:46:37 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- No worries Salam you gallah -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- New knowledge team -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 13:56:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- New knowledge team -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:26:48 (GMT)
__ __ King Munmut -:- Meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars :) -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 10:44:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Aussi Ji -:- And sheilas in bikinis and blowflies in ya eyes -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:50:36 (GMT)

sonofa -:- i dont get it -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:26:43 (GMT)
__ salam -:- certainly, we are the scum of this world -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 12:39:00 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- salam, we are not the scum of the world and.... -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:01:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- what's in for me? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:47:15 (GMT)
__ Sonofa -:- I know many premies to be... -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:03:52 (GMT)
__ __ Charles S. -:- FA: I typed 'Sonafa' where MY name should be... -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:09:51 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- to sonofa read below posts -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 23:56:47 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- One Quick Question -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 21:37:31 (GMT)
__ cq -:- you haven't got it yet? -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:37:56 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- i dont get it...Well I do... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:27:10 (GMT)
__ toby -:- i dont get it -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:45:44 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- you'll get it one day. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:11:04 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- i dont get it -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:07:24 (GMT)

Sazyou -:- 28 years later -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 05:50:04 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Geez -- Are you on the cover of People? -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:34:03 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- 28 years later -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:21:17 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- other not as serious questionsfor sazyou -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 17:35:53 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Materialism = Realization of God -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:48:49 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- I missed out;I took asceticism and kn seriously! -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:27:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Swami, think 'plastics' as in SmartCards which -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 03:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- we were naive, but at least there's Integrity! (nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:33:52 (GMT)
__ __ E. Windsor -:- It's a matter of breeding, my dear. -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 14:21:59 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Hey ,I'm lucky too... -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 02:20:54 (GMT)
__ __ CD -:- Hey have another FU2 -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:39:53 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY NOW, SEZYOU? -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:43:14 (GMT)
__ __ Sezyou -:- SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY NOW, SEZYOU? -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:34:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ TD -:- Sezyou - you haven't mentioned M killing a man? -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:09:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ E. Windsor -:- There are exceptions -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 14:41:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Brian Smith -:- There are exceptions , Why of course there is -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:12:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY NOW, SEZYOU? -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 12:51:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- SAY NOW -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:28:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- 'I have judged M many times' -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 23:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- SOMEONE, ANYONE, PLEASE!!!! Did CD just say that? -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:54:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- To be or not to be , in a cult that is -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 11:42:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY NOW, SEZYOU? -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:19:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- respectfully -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 09:04:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- his mistakes and errors in judgement -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:47:03 (GMT)
__ Charles S. -:- Welcome to forum V... -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 00:43:24 (GMT)
__ Connie -:- 28 years later -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 00:23:44 (GMT)
__ TED Farkel -:- Can't quite believe a gal who spells her name.... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 21:16:40 (GMT)
__ __ moldy warp -:- To TED I like wales just can't see them doing the -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:03:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ TED Farkel -:- Mr. Moldy Warp:TED'S got it all figgered out.... -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:50:18 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- explain to you -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:54:29 (GMT)
__ cq -:- 'tremendous affection ...' so he wasn't God then? -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:29:46 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Without knowing you better ...... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:21:51 (GMT)
__ __ Sean -:- Fair play to you Jim -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:38:17 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- 28 years later. Watch out! -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:03:34 (GMT)
__ toby -:- 28 years later -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:52:54 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Sazyou,just one question abut the good life.... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:22:16 (GMT)
__ E. Winsdor -:- stop being so nasty about Maharajipoos -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 16:07:10 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- One of the funniest replies -:- Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:50:13 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- That was a ' HOOT' .... (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:00:38 (GMT)
__ __ mildew warp -:- stop being so nasty about Maharajipoospotsamoney -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 00:31:16 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- 28 years later / this story sounds too familiar -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:03:11 (GMT)
__ __ CD -:- years later its similar -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:09:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- years later its similar -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 12:15:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- LIAR!! -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:06:05 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Well said as usual, Brian -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:13:03 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Very eloquent Brian - you're so autodidactic. (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- Good advice for Sezyou,she should also become more -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:26:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- One simple question, Sezyou -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:31:15 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- That's a great post Brian. (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:29:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- Sazyou, show us yer tits !!! -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:15:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Thelma -:- gErRy, show us yer tits !!! -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:34:56 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Brian, let's get serious for a moment... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:26:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- I get mine at Bi-Mart, I paid 4 bucks for the -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:35:04 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- An invitation to Sazyou. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:36:19 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- 28 years later- I'm free -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:07:15 (GMT)
__ janet -:- 28 years later--me too -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:25:10 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- janet, we should... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Well sazyou.... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 10:23:55 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- OK -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:43:05 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- SF -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:15:41 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- My , my , aren't we smug . nt -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:01:11 (GMT)
__ Abi -:- 28 years later -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:54:12 (GMT)
__ salam -:- gaga agagag -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Live and Let Live -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:31:20 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- Go for the jugular salam -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:43:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Can not do that -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:49:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- salam -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:02:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- That's what you get for selling old cars -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 14:09:36 (GMT)

Connie -:- From the mouth of my son -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:08:50 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- From the mouth of my son -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:13:53 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Oft comes oatmeal -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 05:29:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kelly -:- Seig Heil....Ki Jai! -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 12:59:36 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Out of the mouths of babes -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:40:15 (GMT)
__ salam -:- From the mouth of my son -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:44:03 (GMT)

Postie -:- Maharaji has demanded an invitation to speak -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:04:33 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- ahmahchizit? nt -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 19:04:21 (GMT)
__ __ sUcH -:- It costs no sense!But you got Visa + smartcard?(nt -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:57:10 (GMT)
__ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Maharaji has demanded an invitation to speak -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:15:49 (GMT)
__ __ Brian Smith -:- Maharaji has demanded an invitation to speak -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:20:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Maharaji has demanded an invitation to speak -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 09:00:25 (GMT)

Abi -:- Denver Unity School -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:16:07 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Denver Unity School -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:01:14 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Denver Unity School -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 13:37:56 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Denver Unity School info from DT -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 16:45:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Sharon Keller and Rudolph Steiner -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:40:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Was Steiner a Nazi sympathiser ? -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 21:18:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Anth - I also found a publication called . . . -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 19:44:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- HEY!!!!! ISN'T THAT CENSORSHIP OR SOMETHING?? -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 04:44:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Postie, name your price.... -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 10:37:11 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- Denver Unity School -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 16:39:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- tristan---bishop? son of annie bishop? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 05:13:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- tristan---bishop? son of annie bishop? -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 14:22:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ D.U.S. -:- tristan---bishop?YES, he lives in SF,I believe,and -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 06:03:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- tristan---bishop?YES, he lives . I'm glad to hear -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 09:44:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 16:35:03 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- I've got old DT w/ Denver Unity School article -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:35:30 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- I've got old DT w/ Denver Unity School article -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:41:51 (GMT)
__ D.U.S. -:- Abi-do you have e-mail address for info? nt -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:14:06 (GMT)
__ __ Abi -:- yes -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:48:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- the teachers had to go to spring valley ny -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:37:39 (GMT)

Pauline Premie -:- The Gift of Gratitude -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:26:29 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- The sauce of creation -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:12:00 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Rock Me And Roll Me And Say It's Alright -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:12:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- Rock Me And Roll Me And Say It's Alright -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 23:27:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- True. He rocked us,rolled us,now says its allright -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:08:20 (GMT)

Susan -:- Read Michael Dettmers post below -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:09:20 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- Some Answers -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:31:15 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- So it WAS your fault after all, MR. Dettmers!! -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 22:04:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- Sezyou is probably Keith nt -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 04:11:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Some answers indeed. Wow. -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 00:48:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- I echo that postie -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:44:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- sorry for all the errors/typos (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:48:32 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Michael:Can you talk more?If so, I have ?'s... -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Michael:Can you talk more?If so, I have ?'s... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:48:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- I've got a question -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:18:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Here's a question .. -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:30:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- To Michael:Can you talk more?If so, I have ?'s... -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:58:14 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- What Maharaji has to put up with is criminal -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:49:05 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- for a good laugh or cry depending on your mood -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:33:00 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- for a good laugh or cry depending on your mood -:- Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 20:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- The Sopranos -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:08:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Beyond Brilliant -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:22:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Beyond Brilliant -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:54:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Another Soprano addict -:- Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:18:15 (GMT)
__ Disculta -:- Marrying a devotee -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Dr. Casserola -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:28:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dr. Kasserola -:- You are wrong -:- Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:04:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ such -:- or is it Dr. Casserole? (like macaroni w cheese)nt -:- Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:33:33 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:11:33 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More updates on IRCC
Message:
Ivory's Rock Cult Center - this info is to complete the last one that I posted re IRCC credit check. See if you can spot something interesting. This LAVAR character is interesting, has few companies.


IRCC_More_data

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:31:34 (GMT)
From: zippy
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: More updates on IRCC
Message:
good work salam.
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:31:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Theory about the plane
Message:
I have a theory about Rawat's latest plane, apparently a Gulfstream V. Rawat likes to have his toys in other people's names, like 'Jeeps Nominees'. Maybe Gulfstream is acting as the trustee for the plane. Just a guess, I could very well be wrong. Here's a record on a G-V registered at around the right time:

N-number : N593GA
Aircraft Serial Number : 593
Aircraft Manufacturer : GULFSTREAM AEROSPACE
Model : G-V
Aircraft Year :
Owner Name : GULFSTREAM AEROSPACE CORP TRUSTEE
Owner Address : 500 GULFSTREAM RD
SAVANNAH, GA, 31407-9643
Registration Date : 25-Jul-2000
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Not Specified

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:44:48 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: on second thought
Message:
I hadn't read the following regarding Rawat's Gulfstream V, which is from this site:

'What we already know is that it's been purchased in the fall of the year 2000. It's a second hand aircraft, and it's previous owner was the late king Hussein of Jordan. It's about $40 million worth.'

There is a publication which has information of aircraft sales. I don't remember right now what it is called, but I can find out. Maybe there is a record in this publication about the sale. If so, it would give the registration number (N number).

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:23:28 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Biz Jet Update
Message:
I believe that 'Biz jet Update' is the name of the publication that lists aircraft sales. It's published either quarterly or monthly and costs a little money. It might cost about $50 to buy the issues for the latter half of 2000. There's a web site on this, but I don't remember the URL.
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 14:08:44 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Is this the man we are looking for
Message:
Name : RAWAT, AMAR
Pilot's Address : 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673
FAA Region : Western/Pacific
Date of Medical : Sep, 1999
Class of Medical : 3
Expiration : Sep, 2002
Pilot Certificates : Student Pilot

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Name : RAWAT, PREM PAL SINGH
Pilot's Address : 31334 ANACAPA VIEW DR
MALIBU, CA, 90265-2673
FAA Region : Western/Pacific
Date of Medical : Jan, 2001
Class of Medical : 1
Expiration : Jul, 2001
Pilot Certificates : Airline Transport Pilot
Airplane Multiengine Land
Rotorcraft Helicopter (Commercial Pilot)
Instrument Helicopter (Commercial Pilot)
Glider (Commercial Pilot)

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 17:48:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Indeed, and like father like son
Message:
In case anyone doesn't know:

Prem Pal Singh Rawat is 'Maharaji' (aka 'Maharaj Ji', 'Guru Maharaj Ji', 'Balyogeshwar', 'Sant Ji', etc.)

Amar Rawat is his youngest child and one of his sons.

31334 Anacapa View Dr is his 20+ million mansion in Malibu.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:15:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: aircraft search result
Message:
Below is the result of searching on aircraft code = 3980116 (Gulfstream V) registered in 2000. I used the web search facility at this URL:
http://www1.drive.net/evird.acgi$pass*11756315!_h-www.landings.com/_landings/pages/search.html

N-number Database Search Result

All entries share these common characteristics except where stated otherwise:

Aircraft Manufacturer: GULFSTREAM AEROSPACE
Model: G-V
Engine Manufacturer: BMW ROLLS
Model: BR 700 SERIES
Airworthiness Certificate Type: Standard
Approved Operations: Transport

-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N1GN
Aircraft Serial Number : 578
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : NORMAN AIRCRAFT LEASING INC
Owner Address:
C O GREAT WHITE SHARK ENTERPRISES
BLDG S-1500 PBIA
WEST PALM BEACH, FL, 33406
Registration Date : 02-Feb-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N1KE
Aircraft Serial Number : 574
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : HUM-AIR LLC
Owner Address:
1 BOWERMAN DR
BEAVERTON, OR, 97005-6453
Registration Date : 09-Feb-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N1SF
Aircraft Serial Number : 598
Aircraft Year: 2000
Owner Name : FRIEDKIN COMPANIES INC
Owner Address:
7701 WILSHIRE PLACE DR
HOUSTON, TX, 77040-5346
Registration Date : 20-Jun-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N100GV
Aircraft Serial Number : 600
Aircraft Year: 2000
Owner Name : GFSC AIRCRAFT ACQUISITION FINANCING CORP
Owner Address:
500 GULFSTREAM RD
SAVANNAH, GA, 31407-9643
Registration Date : 21-Nov-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N15UC
Aircraft Serial Number : 589
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : UNITED CO
Owner Address:
PO BOX 1280
BRISTOL, VA, 24203-1280
Registration Date : 03-Jul-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N1540
Aircraft Serial Number : 580
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : COX AVIATION INC
Owner Address:
140 KAULELE PL
HONOLULU, HI, 96819-1842
Registration Date : 18-Oct-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N158AF
Aircraft Serial Number : 506
Aircraft Year: 1996
Owner Name : FIRST SECURITY BANK NA TRUSTEE
Owner Address:
79 S MAIN ST
SALT LAKE CITY, UT, 84111-1901
Registration Date : 14-Aug-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N16NK
Aircraft Serial Number : 585
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : SUNTRUST BANK
Owner Address:
777 BRICKELL AVE
MIAMI, FL, 33131-2809
Registration Date : 24-Jan-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N20H
Aircraft Serial Number : 522
Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR
Model: UNKNOWN ENG
Aircraft Year: 1997
Owner Name : HBI LEASING LLC
Owner Address:
ATTN: GERALD D DEENEY
3415 UNIVERSITY AVENUE
ST PAUL, MN, 55114
Registration Date : 04-Feb-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N22
Aircraft Serial Number : 501
Aircraft Year: 1995
Owner Name : GULFSTREAM AEROSPACE CORP
Owner Address:
500 GULFSTREAM RD
SAVANNAH, GA, 31407-9643
Registration Date : 16-Oct-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N271JG
Aircraft Serial Number : 582
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : FIRST SECURITY BANK NA TRUSTEE
Owner Address:
79 S MAIN ST
SALT LAKE CITY, UT, 84111-1901
Registration Date : 27-Jun-2000
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental
Approved Operations : To show compliance with FAR
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N300K
Aircraft Serial Number : 587
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : FIRST SECURITY BANK NA TRUSTEE
Owner Address:
79 S MAIN ST
SALT LAKE CITY, UT, 84111-1901
Registration Date : 21-Jun-2000
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental
Approved Operations : To show compliance with FAR
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N301K
Aircraft Serial Number : 591
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : FIRST SECURITY BANK NA TRUSTEE
Owner Address:
79 S MAIN ST
SALT LAKE CITY, UT, 84111-1901
Registration Date : 28-Aug-2000
Approved Operations : Not Specified
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N302K
Aircraft Serial Number : 597
Aircraft Year: 2000
Owner Name : FIRST SECURITY BANK NA TRUSTEE
Owner Address:
79 S MAIN ST
SALT LAKE CITY, UT, 84111-1901
Registration Date : 08-Nov-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N303K
Aircraft Serial Number : 607
Aircraft Year: 2000
Owner Name : FIRST SECURITY BANK NA TRUSTEE
Owner Address:
79 S MAIN ST
SALT LAKE CITY, UT, 84111-1901
Registration Date : 14-Dec-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N33M
Aircraft Serial Number : 594
Aircraft Year: 2000
Owner Name : MINNESOTA MINING AND MANUFACTURING CO
Owner Address:
690 BAYFIELD ST
SAINT PAUL, MN, 55107-1002
Registration Date : 29-Sep-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N379P
Aircraft Serial Number : 581
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : PREMIERE EXECUTIVE TRANSPORT SERVICES INC
Owner Address:
339 WASHINGTON ST STE 202
DEDHAM, MA, 02026-1815
Registration Date : 08-Feb-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N410M
Aircraft Serial Number : 575
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : BRISTOL-MYERS SQUIBB CO
Owner Address:
345 PARK AVE
NEW YORK, NY, 10154-0004
Registration Date : 07-Jan-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N451CS
Aircraft Serial Number : 570
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : 5161 CORP
Owner Address:
C/O AVJET CORPORATION
4301 EMPIRE AVE
BURBANK, CA, 91505
Registration Date : 03-Jan-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N472GA
Aircraft Serial Number : 572
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : BOWMAN AVIATION LLC
Owner Address:
C/O GLOBAL AVIATION INC
2250 NE 25TH AVE
HILLSBORO, OR, 97124-5960
Registration Date : 13-Sep-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N502QS
Aircraft Serial Number : 601
Aircraft Year:
Owner Name : EJI SALES INC
Owner Address:
TWO LEADERSHIP SQUARE FL 10
OKLA CITY, OK, 73102
Registration Date : 27-Dec-2000
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Not Specified
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N54PR
Aircraft Serial Number : 564
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : WILMINGTON TRUST CO TRUSTEE
Owner Address:
ATTN CORP TRUST ADMIN/ACCT#523710
1100 N MARKET ST
WILMINGTON, DE, 19890
Registration Date : 21-Aug-2000
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental
Approved Operations : Research and Development
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N554GA
Aircraft Serial Number : 605
Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR
Model: UNKNOWN ENG
Aircraft Year: 2000
Owner Name : FIRST SECURITY BANK NA TRUSTEE
Owner Address:
79 S MAIN ST
SALT LAKE CITY, UT, 84111-1901
Registration Date : 06-Sep-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N555GV
Aircraft Serial Number : 518
Aircraft Year: 1997
Owner Name : GULFSTREAM AEROSPACE CORP
Owner Address:
500 GULFSTREAM RD
SAVANNAH, GA, 31407-9643
Registration Date : 07-Jan-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N558GA
Aircraft Serial Number : 606
Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR
Model: UNKNOWN ENG
Aircraft Year: 2000
Owner Name : FLEET NATIONAL BANK
Owner Address:
C/O AIR SIMON INC
114 W WASHINGTON ST STE 1500
INDIANAPOLIS, IN, 46204
Registration Date : 04-Aug-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N588GA
Aircraft Serial Number : 588
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : GULFSTREAM GATX LEASING CO LLC
Owner Address:
C/O GATX CAPITAL CORP
4 EMBARCADERO CTR STE 2200
SAN FRANCISCO, CA, 94111
Registration Date : 23-Jun-2000
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Experimental
Approved Operations : To show compliance with FAR
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N593GA
Aircraft Serial Number : 593
Aircraft Year:
Owner Name : GULFSTREAM AEROSPACE CORP TRUSTEE
Owner Address:
500 GULFSTREAM RD
SAVANNAH, GA, 31407-9643
Registration Date : 25-Jul-2000
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Not Specified
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N602GV
Aircraft Serial Number : 602
Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR
Model: UNKNOWN ENG
Aircraft Year: 2000
Owner Name : 200 PS AIRCRAFT HOLDINGS INC
Owner Address:
5901 S CENTRAL AVE
CHICAGO, IL, 60638-3746
Registration Date : 04-Dec-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N675RW
Aircraft Serial Number : 526
Aircraft Year: 1997
Owner Name : COCA COLA CO
Owner Address:
1 COCA COLA PLZ NW
ATLANTA, GA, 30313-2420
Registration Date : 08-Jun-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N718MC
Aircraft Serial Number : 549
Aircraft Year: 1998
Owner Name : RADICAL VENTURES LLC
Owner Address:
4141 N MEMORIAL DR FL 2
TULSA, OK, 74115-1400
Registration Date : 21-Jan-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N790MC
Aircraft Serial Number : 523
Engine Manufacturer : AMA/EXPR
Model: UNKNOWN ENG
Aircraft Year: 1997
Owner Name : MCLEODUSA INTEGRATED BUSINESS SYSTEMS INC
Owner Address:
6400 C ST SW
CEDAR RAPIDS, IA, 52404-7463
Registration Date : 25-Feb-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N84GV
Aircraft Serial Number : 584
Aircraft Year: 1999
Owner Name : FLEET NATIONAL BANK
Owner Address:
C/O ELECTRONIC DATA SYSTEMS CORP
9215 WEISS ST HGR E
DALLAS, TX, 75235
Registration Date : 01-May-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N85V
Aircraft Serial Number : 595
Aircraft Year: 2000
Owner Name : CB AIRCO LLC
Owner Address:
161951 JFK BLVD
HOUSTON, TX, 77032
Registration Date : 04-Oct-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N9SC
Aircraft Serial Number : 552
Aircraft Year: 1998
Owner Name : SCI TEXAS FUNERAL SERVICES INC
Owner Address:
1929 ALLEN PARKWAY
HOUSTON, TX, 77019
Registration Date : 25-Oct-2000
-----------------------------------------------------------
N-number : N95AE
Aircraft Serial Number : 562
Aircraft Year: 1998
Owner Name : NATIONAL EXPRESS CO INC
Owner Address:
AMEX TOWER WORLD FINANCIAL CENTER
NEW YORK, NY, 10285
Registration Date : 04-May-2000

Returned 35 entries out of 35 total matches

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:49:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Sale of Gulfstream IV
Message:
The following info provides evidence that the Gulfstream IV was sold. The G-IV was registered under a new owner's name on October 2, 2000. I'm basing the match on serial number and year.

Old info on the G-IV (before the sale):

N-Number (civil registration number): N41PR
Serial number: 1226
Aircraft:
. manufacturer (make): Gulfstream Aerospace
. model: G-IV SP
. type: Fixed-wing multi-engine
Land
Seats: 22 (allows for 3 crew and 19 passengers)
Year manufactured: 1993
Engines: 2
Engine:
. type: turbojet
. manufacturer: Rolls-Royce
. model: TAY 611-8
. thrust: 12,450 lb.
Weight: 28,000 lb.
Airworthiness class): Standard
Approved operations: Transport
Regigtration type: Corporation
Registrant:
Prime Resources LLC
510 West 4th Street
Carson City, NV 89702 US
FAA region: Western-Pacific
Registration date: 01-July-1994
Last activity (action) date: 18-June-1997

New info on the G-IV:

N-number : N50MG
Aircraft Serial Number : 1226
Aircraft Manufacturer : GULFSTREAM AEROSPACE
Model : G-IV
Engine Manufacturer : ROLL-ROYCE
Model : TAY 611-8
Aircraft Year : 1993
Owner Name : GENERAL ELECTRIC CREDIT CORP OF TENNESSEE
Owner Address : 44 OLD RIDGEBURY RD
DANBURY, CT, 06810-5107
Registration Date : 02-Oct-2000
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Standard
Approved Operations : Transport

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 18:54:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: some company info
Message:
Here's some info on some of the companies listed in the results:

CB Airco LLC:

From the state of Texas:

Company Information CB AIRCO L L C
1001 LOUISIANA ST
HOUSTON, TX 77002-5089
Status IN GOOD STANDING NOT FOR DISSOLUTION OR WITHDRAWAL
THROUGH MARCH 7, 2002

Registered Agent CT CORPORATION SYSTEM
1021 MAIN ST., STE. 1150
HOUSTON, TX 77002
Registered Agent Resignation Date

State of Incorporation DE
File Number 0707962923
Charter/COA Date December 8, 2000

Charter/COA Type COA
Taxpayer Number 32003014126

- no hits from AltaVista
--------------------------------------------
EJI Sales

- no hits from AltaVista
--------------------------------------------
Bowman Aviation LLC:

no hit from state of Oregon business search,
there is a Bowman Associates LLC:

Business Entity Data

Registry Nbr 765330-83
Entity Type DLLC
Entity Status ACT
Jurisdiction OR
Registry Date 07-25-2000
Entity Name BOMAN ASSOCIATES LLC
FedID 00-0000000

Associated Names

Type AGT REGISTERED AGENT Start Date 07-25-2000 Resign Date
Name JILL R FETHERSTONHAUGH Fax
Addr 1 399 E 10TH AVE #101
Addr 2
CSZ EUGENE OR 97401
Country UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Name History

Business Entity Name, Name Type, Name Status, Start Date
BOMAN ASSOCIATES LLC, EN, CUR, 07-25-2000

Summary History

Image Date Action Transaction Date Effective Date Status
07-25-2000 NEW FILING 07-25-2000 FI
--------------------------------------

c/o Global Aviation:

from state of Oregon business search
http://sos-venus.sos.state.or.us:8080/beri_prod/pkg_web_name_srch_inq.show_detail?p_be_rsn=99315

Business Entity Data

Registry Nbr 596657-87
Entity Type DBC
Entity Status ACT
Jurisdiction OR
Registry Date 09-26-1997
Entity Name GLOBAL AVIATION, INC.
FedID 93-1229441

Associated Names

Type PPB PRINCIPAL PLACE OF BUSINESS
Addr
2250 NE 25TH AVE
CSZ HILLSBORO OR 97124 0000
Country UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Type AGT REGISTERED AGENT
Start Date 09-26-1997
Name JOSEPH J HANNA JR
Addr
1300 SW 6TH AVE STE 300
CSZ PORTLAND OR 97201
Country UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Type MAL MAILING ADDRESS
Addr
2250 NE 25TH AVE
CSZ HILLSBORO OR 97124
Country UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Type PRE PRESIDENT
Name FLO NEWTON
Addr
2250 NE 25TH AVE
CSZ HILLSBORO OR 97124
Country UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Type SEC SECRETARY Start Date Resign Date
Name FLO NEWTON
Addr
2250 NE 25TH AVE
CSZ HILLSBORO OR 97124
Country UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

Name History

Business Entity Name Name Type Name Status Start Date End Date
GLOBAL AVIATION, INC. EN CUR 09-26-1997

Summary History

Image Date Action Transaction Date Status
09-27-2000 STRAIGHT RENEWAL 09-27-2000 FI
10-28-1999 CHANGED RENEWAL 10-28-1999 FI
10-21-1999 STRAIGHT RENEWAL 10-18-1999 FI
10-01-1999 NOTICE 10-04-1999 SYS
02-09-1999 REINSTATEMENT 02-09-1999 FI
12-24-1998 INVOL DISSOLUTION 12-18-1998 SYS
10-02-1998 NOTICE 10-05-1998 SYS
09-26-1997 NEW FILING 09-26-1997 FI

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:23:57 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Don't M's flying toys have an HD suffix?
Message:
One of the earlier aircraft (707?) had an N number something like N707HD or N41HD (it's not 41, I checked). HD stands for Hans Dout (pronounced doot) which holds some significance for The Captain formerly known as The Client, The Speaker, Him, Mraji, Maharaji, Maharaj Ji, Guru Maharaji, Balyogeshwar.

Cynthia would surely know about the N number for the 707 Hans Doubt.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 20:31:09 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Never mind on HD - old info
Message:
Here's a photo of the older G-IV - paint job looks older than the one on EPO.

http://www.angelfire.com/biz6/gulfstream/gulfn41pr.html

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:21:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: ^^^^^^^ SERVICE OPPORTUNITY ^^^^^^^^
Message:
Maybe someone here can use the info in the above post 'aircraft search results' to track down Rawat's plane. These are the G-Vs registered in the US in 2000, according to a search facility on the web that goes against a copy of the FAA registration database.

There are only 35 planes in the results. Many can be eliminated due to company name (e.g. Coca Cola). Of course his plane may not be listed here for some unknown reason.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 09:23:57 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: G
Subject: One of those corp records should show some PAM
Message:
somewhere ....

This is important info IMO.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:04:02 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G
Message:
Do you know how many people are watching you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 17:50:13 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: No, what do you mean?
Message:
I don't know what you mean.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 13:54:27 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: a clue
Message:
captin rawat would not have sold his old jet before he had acquired the new one, which means that after his jet was sold, a new entry in the aviation data base with a date close to the selling of the old jet must occur, we can therefore eliminate any entry before the selling date, now all you need is to figure out the selling day.

Did you know that Hawcker Pcific Autralia pty Ltd serviced his craft last time he was here in 1997?

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:59:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: new entry dated October 2, 2000
Message:
See above. I generally agree, but he could have bought the new plane a little after the sale, not much later though. I think it would have been in the latter half of 2000.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 01:18:41 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Here is a list of all G-V registered 160 of them
Message:
http://www.angelfire.com/biz6/gulfstream/gulfdat5.html

rawat's plane has to be among them.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 03:42:53 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: his is leased -GV still owns it in savannah
Message:
i read the whole list. we talked about this here before. it makes more sense for him to lease it so he can trade up rather than have all the headaches that come with ownership. with leasing, you just hand it back to the company when it needs fixing and they hand you another one in perfect condition, good to go, while they take the dud back inside and fix it for the next person.so 'his' would be one of the ones still listed as owned by gulfstream themselves, with their original n numbers on it. he could fly any of them at a given time, depending on which one gulf sent him under his leasing agreement. no single one is 'his'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:39:26 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It's my birthday.
Message:
G,day all,
Well it's that time of the year again.I like to reflect a bit on my birthday.It has been a big year for me.I can't belive I have left the fold after 26 years of a lot of time spent or misspent,depending on one's point of view.
I used to pay more attention to my knowledge birthday in the past.Now that will be a very reflective day as well,but not for the same reasons as before my exing.
I am realising lots of things since I left,and I truly feel blessed that I have been freed from the shackles of imprisonment.I have been feeling lots of periods of intense happiness for no apparent reason at all.This has got to be a good sign.
This mest be happiness.I just hope it keeps up.
So thanks to you guys again for all your help.

Cheers Aussi Ji(The happy little vegemite from downunder)

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:56:28 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: It's my birthday. Happy Birthday Aussi Ji
Message:
may you have much good fortune in the coming year and enjoy yourself today with a big celebration. Don't let the hair of the dog bite you, stay three quarters pissed and a quarterflash.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:14:52 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Thanks Brian.I don't (hiccup)dddrink much (hiccup)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:04:58 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: An AUSpicious day.
Message:
Happy Birthday Aussie Ji,

Today is also the day the Aboriginal Art Musuem is being opened in Utrecht.

I think there must be a cosmic connection going on somewhere. You're not an aboriginal artist too are you?

Anyway, have a good one.

Anth the European sand painting.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:05:51 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: An AUSpicious day.
Message:
Your a clever boy Anth.I would never have thought of AUSpicious in a month of Sundays.No,I am not an aboriginal painter.

Cheers mate(Aussi vegemite ji)

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:42:38 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Happy birthday, Aussie Ji
Message:
This place is starting to look like a bloody aquarium what with all you fishes - Barry, Postie and now you.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:14:08 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Happy birthday, Aussie Ji
Message:
G,day Pat,
In my early years of following the spiritual path it was said that pisceans' were on the last rung of evolution and that pisceans' possessed the traits of all the other star signs put together.My spiritual ego used to love this concept.Now in my grandpa years it all sounds like a load of bullshit.

Cheers Pat. PS I will try to curb the emmision of methane gas at my candle blowing out ceremony,later on tonight.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:08:18 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: It's my birthday.
Message:
Dear AJ,
I love birthdays and one of my house mates' birthday's is also March 3rd! :) I he is a great guy and you seem to both have a similar good nature. I don't know you that well but that one point seems to come through.
So I've added you to my birthday book and if we're both around next year and I remember to look :) I'll wish you a happy birthday for a second time because this is the first... Happy Birthday! :)
I am starting to wish people I've met here, some in person others not, happy birthday for the 3rd year! I love that!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:24:39 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: It's my birthday.
Message:
G,day Robyn,
Thank you,you gorgeous thing Robyn.I will look out for your birthday as well.

Nighy nite now,
Aussi Ji.

PS I used to work with a guy with whom I did not click with at all.If he would walk into the room I was in,I used to walk out,and vise versa.There was no amger or anything,it was one of those chemical things.Then we both found out we were both born on march 3rd and from that day on we hit it off.Funny,isn't it?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 14:08:25 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: It's my birthday.
Message:
Dear AJ,
Ha!! That is funny!
I seem to immediately like people who have the same or in and around my birthday, June 2. Just found out someone where I work, that everyone else found stand offish but I really liked was born on June 4 as was one of our very own here. :) You'll have to wait to see who. :)
Anyway but the 2 people I've known that were born on my b-day and also the same year were both friends of mine but were totally opposite from me, melancoly, loners. They didn't know each other but they were almost exactly alike! Interesting but inconclusive! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:16:09 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hello birthday lady
Message:
what u doing up so late ha?

Write.

salam

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 10:05:48 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Happy Birthday
Message:
Happy Birthday Aussi Ji. Enjoy your new found freedom this day. Have fun! Eat cake! Take good care of yourself.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:28:52 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Happy Birthday
Message:
G,day marianne,
Thank you kindly Marianne.

Cheers Aussi Ji(Carot cake with vegemite icing coming up)

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:46:37 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Happy birthday boofhead.
Message:
any gossip from up there. You know where to find me.

Looking for someone living in Ipswich, ya no any?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:44:40 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: No worries Salam you gallah
Message:
G,day me old matey,
Hot off the press,some juicy gossip mate.To add salt to the wounds of the premies who are still bleeding from the shock $800 rego and the high accommodation prices is the news that each community is now being asked for a further contribution to support the new knowledge team who are coming from the states to give knowledge to the aspirants here in Australia.
The Australian contribution is $18,000 which is for the whole kit and kaboodle.I think it is for Sydney,brisbane and Melbourne.This will be the start of the new Auto knowledge session here in Australia.I think this info is fairly accurate.

Cheers Aussi Ji..PS I don,t know anyone in Ipswith who would welcome an ex premie,unfortunately.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 13:56:34 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: New knowledge team
Message:
sounds like a bunch of crack pots, any idea who is coming? This is my chance to repent, go back to the bigggg bozzzom.

$18,000 looks like a drop in the ocean, is that all what they are asking? I would have thought $1000 bucks from 18 people will sort it out, hell I can afford $10.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:26:48 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: New knowledge team
Message:
G,day Salam,
Apparently in the past anything special like this would've been funded by the 'rich premies'but not anymore.The plebs are being asked to chip in.Yes,it does sound a small ammount of money for an Elan Vital event for sure.
Elan Vital is saying that in the past events at Amaroo were also subsidised by the rich premies and now the plebs are going to have to pay the big bucks.They had the audacity to say that it is going to cost $800 JUST TO COVER COSTS.Can you believe the bullshit is mutating and the premies are falling for it.However not all is good for the master as a lot of dihards are questioning the whole money thing for Amaroo.I'll keep you posted Salam.

Cheers Aj

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 10:44:49 (GMT)
From: King Munmut
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Meat pies, kangaroos and Holden cars :)
Message:
Hi Aussie Ji,

Yeah, good to here ya gett'n back to some down to earth
liv'n. No...I don't eat meat pies. Woudn't trust what they
put in them things :)

Yes. It's a great releaf to see the crazy Indian F**K'n
head bowing shit for what it is.
'JUST THAT'...SOME CRAZY F**K'N INDIAN TRIP'

YES....TRIP TRIP TRIP....!!!!!
Glad ya got ya life back........cheers.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:50:36 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: King Munmut
Subject: And sheilas in bikinis and blowflies in ya eyes
Message:
G,day King Munnut,
Thank mate.You sound like a di dinky Aussie.Are you?

Cheers Aussi Ji(The holden must have a 308 v8 in it )

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:26:43 (GMT)
From: sonofa
Email: None
To: jim and cohorts
Subject: i dont get it
Message:
The cultish, brainwashed, deprived image of premies that you so vividly depict is flawed, to say the least.My mother and father are both premies, and they have provided me with the kind of balanced, loving upbringing that i'm sure you were denied, which was probably one the factors that drove you to become the spiteful, maniacal ne'er-do-wells that you are today. I would also point out the fact that you dedicate more time and energy to hateful slanders of maharaji than his students do to promoting his cause.I truly pity you. It must be horrible to have such a loyal devotion to hate.
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 12:39:00 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: sonofa
Subject: certainly, we are the scum of this world
Message:
and i don't know about the rest, but i love it. Am a hatefull, spitfull, misrable bastard with nothing to do than bitch about a peacefull love giving fat ass guru that has been having a free ride for too long, and am about to flip over, so help me Jesus, for Snofa is here to correct me and put me on the straight and narrow, amien.
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:01:19 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: salam, we are not the scum of the world and....
Message:
I suspect this person is sincere (hopefully). Be nice you whacko salami!

Love to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:47:15 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: what's in for me?
Message:
Nice? what nice, am already being nice, how nicer do want me to get ha?

Snofa is a 16 year old babie. Needs to be shown the door before her little head gets mangled.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:03:52 (GMT)
From: Sonofa
Email: None
To: sonofa
Subject: I know many premies to be...
Message:
... fine, loving people. I used to believe that they were often better than other people, but over the years, my experience has been, that they are really like a cross-section of the general population. Some are very nice, some are nasty, and many others fall somewhere in between. I wouldn't doubt that your parents are on the nice side of that spectrum.

Are you yourself a premie? You didn't say. I don't know if you have read much of the information on this website. It's a lot to take in, it can be a bit overwhelming. It's true that a lot of it is negative, but that is because it is meant to counter a lot of there information from powerful media sources like Elan Vital and Visions International. Visitors are encouraged to use the new information here on this website, compair it with information from other sources, and draw their own conclusions as to what is really true.

I believe that if you do read much of the information on the rest of this website, the forum here will be easier to understand and follow, too. Also, the Journey's section gives a lot of background information on many of the people who post here. It's sometimes easier to understand what they say if you are familiar with their experiences. Being in a cult is not always obvious, or even necessarily always unpleasant. If it were all bad, people wouldn't stick with it for so long.

Welcome to Formum V.

Best regards,

Charles S.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:09:51 (GMT)
From: Charles S.
Email: None
To: Sonofa
Subject: FA: I typed 'Sonafa' where MY name should be...
Message:
in the post above titled 'I know many premies to be...'

Could you correct it please?

Thank you,

Charles S.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 23:56:47 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: sonofa
Subject: to sonofa read below posts
Message:
they may enlighten you. I was a premie when my kids were small - I think I brought them up well, but not cos I was a premie but inspite of it. After all the sort of person who becomes a premie may also be a sensitive, inquiring, intelligent person who would be a good parent.(not that I am blowing my own trumpet of course!)If any of us were denied a 'balanced loving upbringing' then that denial served to make us more vulnerable to joining a cult (there are many references to this phenomemon on this site). This word you use - students' - is a misnomer for 'devotee' and as a devotee we were supposed to dedicate our entire lives to Maharaji lock stock and barrel. We weren't supposed to get married, kids were a distraction, we were encouraged -brainwashed?- into thinking the love we had for our kids was 'our minds' (ie bad) and only love for the Lord was real.Luckily for you your parents managed to resist these commands and here you are, a happy chappy.(but this is not due to Maharaji). We are not spiteful. we are engaged in a battle for the survival of our autonomy , our individuality, amd our sanity.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 21:37:31 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: sonofa
Subject: One Quick Question
Message:
Dear Sonofa(what?):

You wouldn't happen to be, by chance, the offspring of Ms. Sazyou/Sezyou from the thread below this one, would you? Usually, the fruit doesn't fall far from the family tree, and there's a certain fatuous tone in both your and Sazyou/Sezyou's comments.

Take care now.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:37:56 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: sonofa
Subject: you haven't got it yet?
Message:
If you've not got it yet, could it be because you've not been told what happened?

And if your parents are still premies, it's unlikely (with all due respect) that they ever will tell you.

But while you're here at ex-premie.org, why not take a look at the history lesson that's been denied you?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:27:10 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: sonofa
Subject: i dont get it...Well I do...
Message:
Dear sonofa,

The reason you don't get it is because what your parents have been involved with for so many years is a cult. I doubt they would or could admit it, but it is so...

That's not a simple thing to explain. Ex-Premies post here to express many things, among which, are those numerous difficulties in exiting Maharaji's cult.

Your parents may have provided you with a ''well-balanced'' life. If so, then why the need to ''protect'' Maharaji? I wonder if they are willing and/or able to question Maharaji's life, his immense greed, his abuse of premies, and his revisionism of his name, organization, and how he conducts his life both publicly and privately.

If you have not read the Ex-Premies website and the informative links, then reading the forum could easily be taken out of context.

Yes, ex-premies post many negative things about Maharaji because our experiences when following him and when exiting his cult have been negative.

This forum is open to discussion with you about your experiences being a child of premie parents. I hope if you respond you will be treated civilly, yet be warned...some ex-premies are angry about Maharaji's lies and betrayals...

We are all human. We will never reach the perfection that Maharaji continuously promises, that, too, is a lie.

Understand, Sonafa, Maharaji has harbored a pedophile. He was informed when Jagdeo was sexually abusing children in the 70's and 80's and did nothing. When an ex-premie recently communicated with him by letter, neither Maharaji nor Elan Vital did anything about it, other than deny as well as lie about it. There were/are many other abuses inflicted upon premies which have been documented here.

First, understand that it's a personality cult being run by a megalomaniac. Then you may understand more.

Sincerely,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:45:44 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: sonofa
Subject: i dont get it
Message:
hi sonofa,
I am from Germany, you know we have had the Hitlerjugend if you don't understand ask some elder person.
Yeah they loved him, and there were taken care off until....

You think that your parents love is m.'s product?
So it seems!
Otherwise what has your parents care for you has to do with m?

Learn thinking first!

This might be some lack in your education, but you can still
begin.

Toby

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:11:04 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: sonofa
Subject: you'll get it one day.
Message:
Hey sonofa,

Would you still defend Captain Rawat if you discovered he was a drunkard, he used his position to extract sexual favours from his devotess, his material desires were out of control, he'd been involved in a hit and run accident where someone was killed, then he fled the scene and left one of his mahatmas to take the blame? He'd protected and supported a known paedophile and allowed him to carry on his dirty business supported full time by the cult?

Well sonofa, just say, hypothetically, all this was true, would you still defend and support the Captain?

Would you sonofa?

Anth the curious

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:07:24 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: sonofa
Subject: i dont get it
Message:
I'm glad that you feel as though you have a healthy and balanced life. Although your message seems slightly hysterical to me... You seem a bit angry 'sonofa'.

I personally don't have a 'loyal devotion to hate'. I simply want to know why it is that the Mahatma who sexually abused me and many others has been protected by your parents Master.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 05:50:04 (GMT)
From: Sazyou
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 28 years later
Message:
Dear everyone here,

First of all, I’m fortunate to have the most wonderful family. I’ve been married for eighteen years to a funny, creative, loving, brilliant man (who I met while living in the ashram, by the way). We have two smart, sweet, strong and beautiful teenage kids who actually – knock on wood – like and love us and enjoy our and each other’s company.

Next, my husband and I have a great business; over the past eleven years we’ve built a consulting company (we now have three other consultants and two support people) that works with major corporations. We offer great work, our clients like and respect us, and we do very well financially.

We also are blessed with a wonderfully supportive wider circle of friends and family, some of whom are students of Maharaji and some not. My husband and I are both close to our siblings and our moms (our dads died many years ago).

We live in a big, comfortable house on a river, surrounded by woods, with two dogs, two cats and assorted wildlife. My husband gardens and makes custom music mixes. In my (not very) spare time, I connect with friends, travel with my family, dabble in architecture, read voraciously and write science fiction.

Barring huge downturns in the economy, we hope to retire in twelve years or so, and devote our time to traveling (we’ve considered retiring to Wales), writing and helping support Maharaji’s work. (Which, from my point of view, consists of three things: letting people know that Knowledge exists; making it available to those who want to receive it; providing opportunities for those who practice Knowledge to focus on it in more depth).

I enjoy practicing Knowledge, and I have tremendous affection and appreciation for Maharaji. Over the years I’ve experienced him as an inspiring and insightful teacher about life, a wonderful parent to his children (who are delightful), the hardest worker I know, and an amazing autodidact.

So, explain to me again how I’m deluded and emotionally crippled and am part of a cult?

Warmly,
Sezyou

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:34:03 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: Geez -- Are you on the cover of People?
Message:
Sazyou:

I wanted to thank you for taking the time from your perfect and idyllic life to stoop to the level of communication with mere eathlings. It must be trying for you.

Look, if you are as happy as you say you are, why are you tearing yourself away from perfection to talk about it? Good luck to you.

There are just lots of people who have had a very different experience with Maharaji, knowledge, and his cult, including me.

Joe

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 19:21:17 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Sazyou
Subject: 28 years later
Message:
Dear Sezyou,

I have just now logged onto EPO and read your post. I have not read all of the replies to it so perhaps what I have to say has already been said. I am almost certain I know who you are and, if I am right, you know I have a great deal of love and respect for you. You certainly appear to be living an idyllic life and I am sincerely happy for you. Given what I know about you, I am confident that your life would be just as wonderful as it is without Maharaji, notwithstanding your love and appreciation for him. I say this because I know that you live your life in alignment with certain values and principles. Without getting too spiritual or philosophical, let’s just say that your love of, and virtuosity in, music has endowed you an innate as well as cultivated appreciation for harmony, beauty and love and they that manifest in all domains of your life.

I suggest that long ago you identified Maharaji as the embodiment of those values as did I and, it appears that, since then, you have found no reason to think otherwise. At first, it was not easy for me to think otherwise as well, despite all of the evidence I knew to the contrary. Let me assure you, however, that all of the reports I have made on this site about Maharaji’s behavior are factual.

Specifically, you say, “even Michael Dettmers, who initially 'revealed' that M was drinking heavily during the early 80s, has said M's not an alcoholic -- in fact, MD made it very clear that M never drank the night before he flew. Alcoholics are not able to control their drinking in that way. And I haven't heard anyone with information newer than 15 years old about M's drinking habits.” To be accurate, I said that I didn’t have any personal experience with alcoholics to be able to make a diagnosis about alcoholism. What I did was report Maharaji’s drinking behavior in some detail and many people on this Forum who did have experience with alcoholism, either personally or as the victims of an alcoholic’s abuse, explained why Maharaji drinking patterns and the behavior fit the classic description of an alcoholic. And, by the way, his heavy drinking did not begin in the early 80’s. I first witnessed it in 1975 and I was told by Bob Mishler and others that it had been going on for some time before then.

Also, I did not say that Maharaji never drank the night before he flew. During the many years I was around him, he drank every night sometimes much heavier than others. On the night before he flew, he stopped at the prescribed number of hours required before his next flight as specified by the FAA. If you read the posts about alcoholic behavior, that fact does not mean that he isn’t an alcoholic. Given my first hand experience of his many bouts of drunkenness and incidents of drunk driving, I would be very surprised to learn that he stopped drinking in the 90’s. In any case, how would you know? You may have been around Maharaji, but you were never x-rated, and none of the current x-rated PAMs are going to come forward and report on Maharaji’s current drinking behavior, are they?

But here is why I am convinced that he is still abusing alcohol. He continues to this day to deflect any and all responsibility for his failed mission onto others. In his recent training sessions with organizers, he blames all of the concepts, mistakes, and abuse about the ashrams on the Indian mahatmas and others. He is simply incapable of taking responsibility for his actions. Élan Vital’s website is filled with revisionist lies and hypocrisy. To cite but one example, Maharaji takes credit for helping America fight the war on drugs while simultaneously he and his x-rated staff were getting stoned night after night in his Malibu residence.

As a proud and loving mother of two wonderful children, I am amazed to hear you say, “the only allegation I believe is true is that Jagdeo molested children, which I think is horrible. If M knew about it and didn't respond, that would be a grave error in judgment.” Well, in June of last year, Élan Vital claimed on its website that none of the alleged victims had ever come forward. Understandably, this lie infuriated Susan. But rather than leave it at that, I wrote a personal letter to Maharaji with an enclosed letter from Susan in which she explained the circumstances of her abuse – abuse which she reported twice before. How did Maharaji respond? He turned the matter over to Élan Vital. You can read how they washed their hands of this matter on this site.

Maharaji’s mis-handling of the Jagdeo matter was the final straw for me. I decided to came forward and expose Maharaji for the coward and hypocrite that he is. The Jagdeo matter is far more serious than a simple error in judgment. Maharaji's whole career is a litany of his errors in judgment, all of them well documented on this site. In my opinion, he lacks the character, the ethics, and the values that I believe are the foundation of you personal, family and professional life. He claims his message is love but his life is a testament to cynicism and greed. You deserve much better from your so-called Master. Better yet, you and your family don’t need a master at all.

Sincerely,

Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 17:35:53 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: other not as serious questionsfor sazyou
Message:
1) how long have you been reading the forum, some of what you say indicates a while?

2) Is this the first time you have ever posted?

3) Did you ask your kids to post? Are you posting as your kids? Is your whole family discussing the ex site? What about your husband, is he going to post to, has he?

4) Do you discuss the ex site with an of your ex or current premie friends?
?
5) I assume you live in so. cal. am i right?

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 06:48:49 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: Materialism = Realization of God
Message:
Premies seem to think the ultimate attainment in life -- which used to be realization of Knowledge (whatever that entailed) -- is now materialistic acquisition, in imitation of M's 'perfect' realization of this goal.

I first noticed this phenomenon when I was back in the ashram, not a penny to my name, and the initiators all started trying to dress in silk blouses and fancy clothes and jewelry, mimic-ing M and his wife. Most of them seemed positively obsessed with shopping and trying to kit themselves out as luxuriously as possible (a real affront to people who'd slaved for years doing full time service, or who handed over their entire paychecks and never had a cent to spend on themselves).

While I see nothing wrong with enjoying the things of the world, the premies and Maharaji have made a religion out of it, and it's kind of sickening. It's the ultimate result of a lifestyle which places 'me' first, and M right up there with self-gratification as the way to achieve happiness. Perhaps someone should have enlightened Mother Teresa or Mahatma Gandhi that this was the appropriate path to happiness, poor misguided souls.

Everyone's responses here have been tremendous. I'd like to see some kind of reply from Sazyou to each and every one of them. Are you up for it, girl? Can you respond to each of the questions in Janet's post below, and tell us please, how you are NOT in a cult?

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:27:16 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: I missed out;I took asceticism and kn seriously!
Message:
rupees, pounds, pesos, dinaros, and dollars,

Armani, Mercedes, and coiffed poodle collars,

By the way, there's a lucrative pyramid scheme,

to fulfill Mahamaya of the new premie dream.

Gee, maybe we shoulda just listened to our parents and their friends, way back when... think 'plastics'.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 03:04:33 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Swami, think 'plastics' as in SmartCards which
Message:
are one day envisaged as being (according to EV) identity/credit cards with a combined debit card account for shopping for divine tchochkes and eating divine food at divine restaurants and sending in all the divine moola to the divine urug.

Me too, a poor old armchair yogi. I guess we both believed that it is better to store our treasures where moth and dust do not corrupt.

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 22:33:52 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: we were naive, but at least there's Integrity! (nt
Message:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz fell asleep in meditation this morning
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 14:21:59 (GMT)
From: E. Windsor
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: It's a matter of breeding, my dear.
Message:
Dear Joy and Everyone,

My husband and I always find that when one is faced with frearfully unpleasant people, especially lower class types, the best thing is simply to ignore them. We lift our chins and sniff the air and turn away. One mustn't encourage them, they simply get worse. We don't like talking about unpleasant things which is why we can say that we've never had a single complaint from any of our clients, that our marriage is just ideal, that our friends are all fabulous and that our children respect and adore us. We simple edit out all the rather vulgar aspects of life because as Maharaji so often tells us, life is to be enjoyed. One doesn't want to let Mind stop us from understanding that 'Experience' does one.

We did have a rather tricky old time of it recently because our dear little peke Stinky was rather constipated and subsequently got a rather nasty hernia. These peddies always have the odd problem but they ARE worth the money. We had to dash him off to our vet, whom we've always found to be simply wonderful. We were all rather upset about it as Stinky was in so much pain and rather grumpy too. We prayed for him and meditated. You'll all be glad to hear that By His Grace Muffy is now much better. We find it easier to talk about the rear-ends of our darling little pets than the vulgar things you lower class types seem so very het up about. Why discuss dull old things like politics and religion when everyone who has any breeding at all knows it is not the done thing and is certainly something we never encourage at our dinner parties. But I must say the people we know would never dream of being so crass.

You all seem soo eager to hear from me which is rather touching, but I must say that I find all of your posts rather vulgar and I simply do not have either the time or the inclination to engage with you. One must get on mustn't one.

And anyhow, we're hosting a large dinner party tonight with some fellow students of our darling Maharaji. (Of course most of them hold very high ranking positions within Elan Vital - such a fab name isn't it!) I have to supervise our staff and make sure everything is just so before they arrive.

I do hope you all manage to sort yourselves out but one can't help the type of parents one has and I expect most of yours were a bad sort. It's all a matter of breeding isn't it.

Oh, must dash, Stinky is calling for me. Hope it's not another hernia!

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 02:20:54 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: Hey ,I'm lucky too...
Message:

... I have a wonderful wife who's an atheist , but who never objected to me going to events etc when I was a premie .

2 charming children , & close family living nearby .

We live in an agricultural worker's cottage built in 1865 ,& last modernised around 1956.

It's rented.

We're broke ....so what?

FUCK YOU .

The reason I'm not a premie anymore hasn't got anything to do with my wallet .

Has your consultancy business got anything to do with motivating dumb fucks , like me , to churn out toasters 24 hrs a day ?

If so don't retire to Wales .

They really don't like people like you there.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:39:53 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Hey have another FU2
Message:
How to do a FU2
Wow.
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:43:14 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY NOW, SEZYOU?
Message:
There are many people here who took the time to respond to your inquiry.
Are you above returning the favor and 'connecting' with those of us who have considered your questions worthy of our time and concern?
What was your intention, to engage in an honest and open inquiry about a common experience we all took part in at one time?

Or are you merely attempting to prove how wrong we exes are and how you have it all together and your story book lifestyle proves it?

Your reticence to reply makes me feel that perhaps you consider us all persona non gratis. After all; those who have renounced GMJ could not possibly begin to imagine the error of our ways could we, and if we did we would surely beg forgiveness, return to the fold and strive to attain the same blissful contented, active and purposeful life that you have been blessed with by the Grace of GMJ. Why it only stands to reason,

What a perfect world that would be then ......... Myself, I would settle for a simple acknowledgement of my efforts to communicate with you, I would appreciate however small a response you deem me worthy of.
Sincerely, Brian Smith

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:34:37 (GMT)
From: Sezyou
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY NOW, SEZYOU?
Message:
Brian,

I've been reading and thinking about all the replies I've received. Some were just poking fun (and I found them funny in various degrees); some felt hysterical and knee-jerk ('it's a cult and he's a megalomaniac, so nothing you say could possibly be true'); and a few - like yours - seemed sincere.

You note (I assume sarcastically) at the end of your first response to me that 'but then again, you were never in a cult and I was!' Ironically, I think that's quite possible. I know a number of premies who I think are in a cult. They practice Knowledge out of fear, they give money to Elan Vital out of some sense that bad things will happen to them if they don't, they seem to feel that they 'must' be students of M or else Knosledge won't 'work,' they refuse to acknowledge Maharaji's mistakes and errors in judgement, etc. I think that's sad. I hope that anyone who has a fear-based relationship with Maharaji or Knowledge untangles it, through whatever means they can. If that means not practicing Knowledge, or not distancing themselves from Maharaji, so be it.

In terms of the techniques of Knowelddge being ordinary and readily avaialble, that's certainly true (on this site, for example). I knew two of the techniques before receiving Knowledge. Interestingly, I had never experienced anything while practicing the techniques other than a slight calming. After being shown the techniques during my Knowledge session, I had a very different experience, and have since. I have no explanation for this, but it's accurate.

As far as all the allegations that are made against Maharaji personally on this site (that seems to be the main argument against Knowledge these days -- that he's screwed up), most of them seem to me to have very little basis in fact. For instance, the allegation that he's an alcoholic. Even Michael Dettmers, who initially 'revealed' that M was drinking heavily during the early 80s, has said M's not an alcoholic -- in fact, MD made it very clear that M never drank the night before he flew. Alcoholics are not able to control their drinking in that way. And I haven't heard anyone with information newer than 15 years old about M's drinking habits.

All the allegations about M 'forcing' people to give him money aren't supported by facts, either. I know many, many practicing premies who donate $0 to EV and aren't ostracized or pressured in any way. The separation between M's personal support and EV's funds is very clear (again, as repeatedly pointed out by Michael Dettmers).

I could go on and on. Most of the allegations against M are based on comments by a few people (which may or may not be true), then blown enormously out-of-proportion because they support the prevalent belief system on this site, and portrayed as fact.

The only allegation I believe is true is that Jagdeo molested children, which I think is horrible. If M knew about it and didn't respond, that would be a grave error in judgment..I don't know whether he did. I know that Jagdeo was packed back to India in the early 80s -- that may have been M's response. I, for one, think M is certainly capable of making mistakes. However, even given that one of M's 'employees' behaved in this abhorrent way, I don't believe that makes M a monster, as you seem to do.

Also, unlike a lot of the people on this site who acknowledge they have never had any personal interaction with M, I have. He has been unfailingly honest, insightful, funny and kind toward me and in my presence. (As Michael D also stated when he first began to post.)

Unlike most of the people who populate this site, I don't care whether or not anyone practices Knowledge. If it didn't give you what you were looking or hoping for, by all means, keep looking. If you felt/feel in pain or betrayed, I'm sorry you've been hurt. I just find it irritating that you all feel the need to tell me I'm deluded and in a cult, and that I'm not having the life I'm having!

Respectfully,
Sezyou

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 00:09:50 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Sezyou
Subject: Sezyou - you haven't mentioned M killing a man?
Message:
Doesn't this bother you, or have you selected to ignore this fact?
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 14:41:10 (GMT)
From: E. Windsor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: There are exceptions
Message:
Although Stinky is in some pain I felt that because Brian has confessed to being upper-middle class then perhaps we could understand each other - so I simply had to respond. I might even invite him to dinner one day, he seems a decent sort.

Again I'n frightfully sorry if you feel that you've had a difficult time with Maharaji and I do hope, really I do, that one day you understand that it is all your fault. I mean honestly, he wasn't really the Lord of the Universe you silly things. I never once thought that, no, no, no.

I'm simply a more mature and sophisticated person than most of you - and I know Mummy aways cautioned me against not being modest but I feel I must be direct - and so it follows that I understand the true essence of Maharaji. I really do believe it is so often a matter of breeding. You either have it or you don't, you either understand Maharaji or you don't. It's very simple.

I do feel terribly sorry for you all and I would like to help but really one feels one doesn't really know where one can possibly begin.

Brian dear, next time you're in Kent do look us up we're in the book under Pat. Ronising.

toodle pip

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:12:16 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: E. Windsor
Subject: There are exceptions , Why of course there is
Message:
How charming darling, thank you so much for your gracious invitation. We do so appreciate it. We will be in Greece this summer so perhaps you and your brilliant husband and lovely well adjusted children could arrange to meet us there for a few days.

You could stay with us at the Agean sea villa on Chios and we shant say one bad word about our previous involvement with a greedy, selfish, lecherous, meglamanical, fraud of a spiritual teacher lest we spoil our idylic vacation.

How lovely life is don't you think dear , the next time you are in the colonies do ring us up.

toodle do,

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 12:51:24 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Sezyou
Subject: SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY NOW, SEZYOU?
Message:
As far as all the allegations that are made against Maharaji personally on this site (that seems to be the main argument against Knowledge these days -- that he's screwed up), most of them seem to me to have very little basis in fact. For instance, the allegation that he's an alcoholic. Even Michael Dettmers, who initially 'revealed' that M was drinking heavily during the early 80s, has said M's not an alcoholic -- in fact, MD made it very clear that M never drank the night before he flew. Alcoholics are not able to control their drinking in that way. And I haven't heard anyone with information newer than 15 years old about M's drinking habits.

Firstly, I am married to an ex- senior British Airways Stewardess who tells me that the Captains are renowned for their drinking. As to whether Maharaji qualifies as an alcoholic I would not know, but I do however believe that the reports by various witnesses to his drinking indicates that he drank to drown his sorrows and certainly quite excessively by my standards. Such habitual drinking is highly indicative of some deep personal problems.

I for one cannot take seriously a 'Perfect Master' who privately drowned his sorrows in such a manner. Certainly his drinking indicates a lack in him which Knowledge has failed to fulfill. What's all that about?

I also saw light before receiving Knowledge. My feeling is that Maharaji's Knowledge Path simply represented an environment where there was instruction and emphasis to practice these techniques to the extent where we got the natural results. That we believed those results confirmed some special 'power' or 'blessing' from Maharaji makes no sense since it is entirely accountable to the huge amount of suggestion that was given that this was the case.

Also I believe that the methods used to indocrinate us to do these practices have been proved to be extremely questionable. We are now seeing the backlash of the harmful side-effects of the cultic influence of Maharaji. He needs to address this squarely and honestly rather than arrogantly avoiding taking resposibility for his actions.

Maybe we are all grown up now and have our own modicums of success to enjoy . Although as adults we may pride ourselves in how much we have 'moved on' in terms of lifestyle, it seems a lot harder for us to move on now from the deep-set beliefs that we still carry from our long dependance on Maharaji.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:28:12 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: SAY NOW
Message:
>My feeling is that Maharaji's Knowledge Path simply represented an environment where there was instruction and emphasis to practice these techniques to the extent where we got the natural results.

Thats pretty much how I see it.

>I for one cannot take seriously a 'Perfect Master' who privately drowned his sorrows in such a manner. Certainly his drinking indicates a lack in him which Knowledge has failed to fulfill. What's all that about?

Whether its true or not true, what I saw of M was his personal appearances and videos. I never recognized him being in a down mood or hung over. In fact I consider that he kept quit a good schedule and never failed to deliver a good presentation.

The benefit I got from those talks was the important thing to me. Not to judge M personally. Oh shure I have judged M many times. But it doesn't buy me anything to do the judging. That is my take.

CD

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 23:36:43 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: 'I have judged M many times'
Message:
'The benefit I got from those talks was the important thing to me. Not to judge M personally. Oh shure I have judged M many times. But it doesn't buy me anything to do the judging. That is my take.'

When you say 'I have judged M many times', what do you mean? You have seen negative things about him? Like what, care to elaborate, or are you not supposed to 'judge' him? I think 'judge' in this case is simply seeing him for the way he really is. What's wrong with that? Why deny what you know to be true? Why lie to yourself? I think being honest about him does buy you something, it buys you the real you.

By 'But it doesn't buy me anything to do the judging', are you suggesting that you should leave it to him to 'do the judging'? Consider what he does when he 'judges'. He insults, condemns, instills fear and guilt, and lies about those he 'judges'.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:54:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: SOMEONE, ANYONE, PLEASE!!!! Did CD just say that?
Message:
No use trying to engage CD in a discussion because he doesn't do those. But, yes, I just NEED to talk with someone about what I just read. Really, am I dreaming or something? I could have sworn CD just wrote the following. In reply to Patrick (formerly Anon) [can't one of you guys be 'Pat' or 'Patty' or something?], who'd said this:

I for one cannot take seriously a 'Perfect Master' who privately drowned his sorrows in such a manner. Certainly his drinking indicates a lack in him which Knowledge has failed to fulfill. What's all that about?

CD actually wrote this:

Whether its true or not true, what I saw of M was his personal appearances and videos. I never recognized him being in a down mood or hung over. In fact I consider that he kept quit a good schedule and never failed to deliver a good presentation.

The benefit I got from those talks was the important thing to me. Not to judge M personally. Oh shure I have judged M many times. But it doesn't buy me anything to do the judging. That is my take.

Is this not just the dumbest thing you've ever read? Like, in your life, let's say? All CD is saying is 'Hey, I don't know if he's an alcoholic or not but so long as he fools me that's good enough'.

Time for that Catscan, Chris.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 11:42:02 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Sezyou
Subject: To be or not to be , in a cult that is
Message:
Thanks for the response Sezyou, and now in the spirit of like consideration I will return the favor with a reply.

Hopefully we will open up an avenue of dialogue that will connect us as fellow human beings sincerely interested in self awareness and searching out the truth as it commonly pertains to us here.
I would like to clarify that although there was an inherent element of sarcasm in the closing statement of my last post, satire alone was not my primary focus. You were the one who raised the issue and question of not being in a cult. I was simply making a comparative statement relative to our many similarities.

You note (I assume sarcastically) at the end of your first response to me that 'but then again, you were never in a cult and I was!' Ironically, I think that's quite possible.

What is ironic about this is that we really do seem to have many parrallel realities, 18 years happily married , nice homes, loving families, financial security etc. the truth speaks plainly to these similarities. How then can it then be so different that you and I can legitimatly argue that one of us was in a cult and the other wasn't?

Lets see, our experiences took place in much over the same period of time, staring out circa '72' to present, with the same figurehead, with the same body of people and organization, committed to the same understanding or knowledge, following the same directives watching the same videos and possibly attending the same events. How is it that we can probably safely agree that did all of these same things yet, end up with different perspectives when it comes to the issue of cult or no cult.

I say we are in the same boat here as well, the same truth applies to the fact that we are either a part of a cult or not part of a cult. For instance lets say that you and I agree to meet for lunch on the Queen Elizabeth ocean liner moored in Long Beach. We both show up at the designated time and sit down across the table from one another face to face. It would be pretty darned preposterous for either of us to suggest to the other that one of us is on the USS Minnow and the other is on the QE. To blame faulty thinking on our different perceptions is so weak a position that it is meaningless.

There is really nothing at all to debate or think about in the matter, It is clear we are on the same ship, but just to be sure look at the monogrammed plate , look at the name painted on the side of the ship, I mean come'on. And to base the arguement for our difference of reality on the premise that one of us harbors some sort of fear based mentality is even more absurd.

Do you see what I am driving at here? I am not insulting you here I am just trying to illustrate that there might be some delusional thinking at work. Your next quote lends itself to this very essence of convoluted substance.

I know a number of premies who I think are in a cult. They practice Knowledge out of fear, they give money to Elan Vital out of some sense that bad things will happen to them if they don't, they seem to feel that they 'must' be students of M or else
Knosledge won't 'work,' they refuse to acknowledge Maharaji's mistakes and errors in judgement, etc.

So just by thinking we are able to alter circumstances out side of ourselves Ay, Then I could be on the minnow and you could be on the QE simutaneously after all. If you say this to be so; then you seem to be willing to suspend truth to fit the circunstances for an arguement in favor of keeping the Maharaji Myth alive based on magical abstract thought processes and not at all on reality.
Which of us then is deluded when it comes to looking at what is going on and waking up and saying that we are both in the same boat?
one of us is.......

Now in my last post I gave you several examples of why I think we are in a cult, Would you be so kind as to enlighten me as to why you think don't think this is a cult. Because just as sure as we both share many other things in common, believe me I am quite sure that this cult issue is a common bond too.
Where does truth skip a beat when it comes to what determines the practical nature of a common reality or experience.
The problem is one of us is wrong, one of us is deluded and we both need to know.
I am not perpetrating that you are not having the life that you are having. How could my or anyone else's opinion change your life anyway? do I detect a tremor of insecurity here?
And whether or not knowledge is practiced by you or anyone else is of no concern to me, I am only responsible for my own decisions about this. By the way Sezyou, the pain of facing years of betrayal is by far outweighed through the experience of joy and exhilaration of reclaiming my own free will back.

I can't help to have noticed that you have avoided answering many of the questions put to you here.
Particularly in janets post and to the question regarding acknowledgement of Maharaji's mistakes and errors in
judgement, etc. What in your opinion were these mistakes and errors?
I am very sincere about this and I really would appreciate you sharing your thoughts on these issues. If it turns out you are correct in your position then I am all for admitting it and fessing up to the facts.
I too close respectfully and await your reply,
Thank you in advance for your courage in openly discussing these very sacred and delicate issues with me.
Brian


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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:19:33 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Sezyou
Subject: SO WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY NOW, SEZYOU?
Message:
I just have a few points to make in response.

You say. “ The separation between M's personal support and EV's funds is very clear (again, as repeatedly pointed out by Michael Dettmers).”

However EV does pay for M’s travelling expenses, which includes his whole family and entourage to travel and live in luxury wherever he goes, and probably (just an educated guess) those of his mistress Monica Lewis (I still can’t get over the hilarious co-incidence of that name) who I saw around M at events in India when his family didn’t accompany him. This would also include the luxury cars that are kept for his use all over the world. And I bet he does not personally pay for the upkeep and constant improvements to all his properties around the world, including Amaroo. I must admit I was shocked to find out that he owns it all, and just leases it back to the premies. I wouldn’t mind betting that he didn’t personally pay for the seven million dollar (or was it pounds?) yacht. And the thing that always got me…The watch collection. Maybe he pays for his own expensive watches now, I don’t know, but he sure didn’t in the past. His entire wealth has been generated by donations from premies who believed, truly believed that he was a divine incarnation, and out of ‘gratitude’ for his ‘gift’. Some gift!

You say. “MD made it very clear that M never drank the night before he flew. Alcoholics are not able to control their drinking in that way. And I haven't heard anyone with information newer than 15 years old about M's drinking habits.”

Well that is simply not true…Alcoholics can and do control their drinking in that way, this is well known among experts on the subject, and also to people like me who had alcoholic parents. As far as his current drinking habits are concerned, all I know for certain is that he is still fond of a drop of cognac! But anyway doesn’t it trouble you at all, to hear about how abusive he used to get under the influence even if it was 15 years ago. For me the news that he was an addicted smoker for all those years, he still smokes cigars at least, was also a real shocker.

You said. “He has been unfailingly honest, insightful, funny and kind toward me and in my presence.”

Well you’ve been lucky then, because I, and others, have witnessed him really bawling people out and seen him storming around in a furious rage.

That’s just a few points, there are many more. It’ll all come out in the wash as they say, and I think there’s a lot coming out soon.

Enjoy your life, as he would say. Mine is much more enjoyable since I left the cult.
Kelly

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 09:04:29 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Sezyou
Subject: respectfully
Message:
I appreciate how you signed that post sezyou. I also, think you are the only premie who posts here that has ever said Rawat could make a mistake.

I have thought that maybe Rawat did make a 'mistake' on the Jagdeo matter. Well, obviously he did, but maybe at the time he did something but that something was an ignorant and less than adequate response. Maybe he even regrets it now. But does he have the guts to say so? Does he have the guts to address me or Abi personally? Does he have the guts to try to find the other victims? Not so far. And I doubt he ever will. I think he is a coward, and I think he cares a lot more about himself and his own family than others, we all do probably, but I think he thinks other humans are sort of like another species than his own family.

You acklowledge he makes mistakes. Apparently you were a premie in the 70's. How can you tolerate the revisionism on his site? How can you tolerate his refusal to take any responibility for the fact that most of his followers thought he was God? It is just total BS that he was some victim of those around him, no one, no one, in DLM/EV has more control over what it is okay to say think and feel than Rawat. No one has more power than he does over premies. You know that. All premies, PWKs or whatever know that. He has never hosestly dealt with his 'mistakes'. He blames others for his mistakes. You know it, I really think you do.

If your kids are really posting here why don't you take the whole family to someone like Steve Hassan, who knows cults ( it sounds like you have the money) and see if you are in one? Seriously, I challenge you to do it. Contact him. Let an outside expert on the phenomenon of cults, one who has never been a premie, appraise whether you are in a cult or not.

And if you just take the stuff Rawat says with a grain of salt, ( but you didn't at one point or you would not have been in the ashram) than why don't you suggest to him that in no uncertain terms he should address all the remaining premies and let them no he is fallible. Suggest to he take responsibilty for any mistakes he has made and be clear about what they were. If he really wanted to stop being a cult leader, he could, I think, but that is what it would take. He hasn't done it. ( Did you join the ashram to be saved from the drug culture? I didn't, I joined it to serve the living perfect master, I joined it because I thought it was the most reasonable response to what I thought was the fact that the superior power in person had human form on the planet, and I wanted to love and serve him ) Be HONEST, with yourself, with us, and with him.

Respectfully,

Susan

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:47:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sezyou
Subject: his mistakes and errors in judgement
Message:
'they refuse to acknowledge Maharaji's mistakes and errors in judgement'

Please elaborate on what you consider to be his mistakes and errors in judgement.

How do you feel about his owning a 106 foot yacht that costs about seven million dollars? What about the house in Los Angeles that he co-owns? What do you think that house is for?

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 00:43:24 (GMT)
From: Charles S.
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: Welcome to forum V...
Message:
Dear Sazyou:

You sound like an intelligent, reasonable person. You also sound as if you are not really sure about what all the fuss is about here on forum V. I'm not sure how much of the information on this website you have read. If not much, if you just came onto the forum directly, I can see why you might be puzzled. In lieu of explaining what this forum and the website is about, I would ask you, as a visiting premie, to consider a few questions:

If Knowlede and M. are the Truth, then why are PWKs required to keep the techniques secret? Why not shout the 'Truth' from the rooftops?

Why are you not encouraged to talk about your own experience, except in a syrconized, scripted way?

Why can't the premies have an open forum in like this one, where they can talk to each other in real-time, without having their postings edited and re-written for them?

Why is there all these secrets around M.?

Why aren't Elan Vital's financial records available to the public, if there is nothing to hide? Even many churches, who are not required to make their records public, do so, because they wish to show their members they have nothing to hide, and want them to see where the money goes, to encourage more donations.

If you enquire about EV finances, as a long time doner (as I have, more than once), why are you given no information?

Why is the history of M and K being denied, revised and rewritten?

How is he supposed to spread this Knowlege around the world, when he is hiding and inaccessible, when their is no accounting for what happens to the money collected for this purpose?

Do you really even know this man? How consistant is he in what he says? Why are his videos heavily edited, and even recalled and pulled out of circulation? What is he really doing? Do you know?

Does the truth need to be hidden and protected? Will the truth not hold up to scrutiny and skeptisism? Isn't it only lies that need to be hidden and protected from scrutiny?

If you have been having a wonderful experience being associated with M., how much of it comes from M. himself, and how much comes from your own effort, and your faith in him? Many claim they continue to have good experiences in their practice after moving on from the guru. Even Indian stories tell of saints who only met their guru once, or were otherwise separted, who continued to have happy experiances. Is it conceivable that it may be possible for you, also?

Many Premies don't want to know about the things discussed here, because they are afraid that their 'truth', what they feel to be the truth about M., won't hold up to scrutiny. It's scary to have your illusions destroyed. But afterwards, you are left free, free to embrace something better, those things in your life that DO hold up to scrutiny. Things you don't have to be ashamed of or embarassed about, things you can actually feel GOOD about, and talk about in your own words. You are left with something you don't have to hide or protect, and that is such a relief.

I found the information on EPO difficult to reconcile with my involvement with M. and his organization. Yet, I felt there were things regarding my involvement that were helpful, but there were always things I felt uncommfortable with too. So with new information, I reexamined all of it, an how I felt about it. I concluded that the things I had liked about my experience being involved with M and K were all things that I could take with me. I could separate the wheat from the chaff, and move on. So I did.

I am not angry and bitter like some people who post on here on EPO. But I did not suffer as badly or as personally, either. I don't critisize their anger, just because I don't feel as angry. People feel the way they feel, and don't need anyone telling them they ''Should'' feel diferently.

You seem to be telling us that you feel content, and I wouldn't want you to feel otherwise. I have Premie friends, and when it comes to Maharaji, we agree to disagree. I wouldn't like them attacking me or my beliefs, and I don't attack theirs. They know they can come to me if they ever want to discuss leaving M. and moving on. I leave it at that.

I only ask you to consider these questions, because you have posted here on Forum V. I believe it is possible to have the contentment you describe, without worshiping a guru, and also without hating him. In fact, it's difficult if not impossible to experience contentment while being angry at anyone.

I don't regret learning Kriya Yoga from M., thought it has been mixed up with a lot of other stuff, like bhakti yoga, that I feel I don't need. I feel he should have been more honest about what he was teaching, bhakti yoga and kriya yoga, combined. It is the secrecy and the lies, the hidden finances and M's growing emphasis on himself (the bhakti yoga) as being more important than the kriya yoga, that have caused me to move on. While I don't hate him, I don't feel any need to defend him, either. He's a grown man now, and can defend himself, if he wants to. He's had ample opportunity (see www.openlettertomaharaji.org). Many of us would be willing to hear him explain things, but he apparently dosen't wish to. He can take the consequences of that.

I still practice and enjoy the techiniques. They are called Kriya Yoga, and are freely available, from many teachers. I enjoy it so much, perhaps I'll teach it myself one day. I'd like to see everyone be content, only without having to hide things or make excuses. If many can do that with Yoga, great. To each his own. If some prefer Bhakti to Kriya, or a combination, that is their choice.

If you can live with all the questions I've mentioned above, that is also your choice, although many would ask you, how? Why? What are your answers? Many people can't live with those questions, and that is what this forum is for. You imply that you are very happy. I certainly don't want you to be otherwise! I also love to be happy! I just find it easier to do if I don't have to keep secrets and can speak my mind about any thing I like regarding my experience of life. Easier if I don't have awkward questions like the ones above haunting me, when I don't feel I have to defend things I don't agree with. Easier, when I am free to share my own experiance, without relating it to some agenda created by someone else. Easier when I am just free to be myself.

Wishing you only the best for your happiness...

- Charles S.

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 00:23:44 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: 28 years later
Message:
Dear Sazyou

It makes me sad to read your post.

Everything you expressed in your bio is exactly what knowledge has become:

Socio-economic position as a reflection of one's consciousness, sincerity and usefulness.

I do have some questions:

If it was one of your obviously much loved children who had been sexually abused by one of m's trusted, and m was informed about it, but never took any meaningful action, and later denied ever knowing about it, would that not affect you?

Would you not feel a moral outrage, and want to do everything in your power, as a mother, to right a wrong? Would you not feel confused, knowing, as you put it, that he is a 'wonderful parent', as well as your master, that he did nothing?

Would your heart not break for your young child knowing that they had been placed in that situation, because he was your master, in the belief that it was the best place for your child's physical, mental, emotional and spiritual needs?

Are not all children worth as much as the Rawat children?

I would appreciate an answer, as it is 28 years later for me also, and these are questions I asked myself, and there is no way I can excuse how the Jagdeo incident played out. Not even for the sake of protecting 'my experience'.

Sincerley
C

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 21:16:40 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: Can't quite believe a gal who spells her name....
Message:
one way the first time, another way the second time.

So, my question to you is :are you Ms. Sezyou, or Ms. Sazyou?

I aint judging, but somethins a tad too perfect here, plus I never trust a gal who don't know how to spell her own name, or don't give the real one...

Anyway, you come down to the TRAC Center and we'll have some satsang and maybe a home brew or two.I'm a DVD premie, in case ya didn't know...

If yer lookin for retirement and service as a package deal, you might wanna consider moving to the TRAC Center in Alabama...we're doin great things here in our first synchronised year...Dave Smith and the Raja highly recommend the fine dining and licquors,friendly atmosphere,and off-beat yet down home style of devotion found in our propagational activities....

Plus, I don't know bout Wales for propagation...
Maybe I could see our Lord givin the special K to dolphins, but not wales....

Just puttin my 2 cents in,
TED Farkel
Don't get me wrong,I like wales,just can't see them doing the 4 techniques...

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 01:03:14 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: TED Farkel
Subject: To TED I like wales just can't see them doing the
Message:
4 techniques. You've got me worried now. Will they be saved? Wot happens when they have left this mortal coil? Will they go to hell? Can the Lord drive up in his mercedes as they are en route to Hades and say 'hop in'and drive them right up to those pearly gates if they are not 'students'? How could they do service with flippers anyway? Oh, I forgot, they wouldn't have to now of course. But wot about Indian wales (are there such things?)- how would they get darshan? And wot if they did get K and stopped practicing. All that rotting vegetation in the ocean would get in the way of the Lord's yachting activities.
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:50:18 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: Mr. Moldy Warp:TED'S got it all figgered out....
Message:
Dear Mr. Warp:

I think it goes somethin like this...

M just aint gonna be able to save the wales, seeing as how they just can't do the four sacred techniques..

I mean they might have a little flipper on each side, but it just aint big enough to cover their eyes or ears with.

Now maybe with the right underwater DVD instructional video they could maybe, at best, do technique #3 and #4....think about it...

So, I just don't see the wales gettin saved anytime soon, and that's why all them liberal environmentalists are trying so hard to save them wales, cos they can't save themselves, and m, even though he is the living perfect master, can't do it either...

At least that's the way I think it goes...

TED Farkel
I'm gonna tell the Raja to tell his brother to stick with saving dolphins...they're smarter than wales, and could figure something out to help with that technique #1 and #2 problem....but I just don't see much hope for the wales at this point...OK, gotta go catch the end of the video and my half drunk foamie...

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:54:29 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: explain to you
Message:
how you are emotionally crippled and part of a cult.

First of all, please read all of ex-premie.org, that should explain fairly well, if you read it with an open heart, why you are part of a cult. I especially would like you to read about Jagdeo, because that issue personally concerns me.

If you want to know why you are 'emotionally crippled', well, that sounds like a harsher way to describe you than I would use without knowing you.

But I do think Rawat ( your master ) is emotionally crippled. You happen to mention how much he loves his kids. A lot of premies come here and mention that as justification for why he can't be all that bad. This reminds me of yet another Sopranos episide, in which Tony et al ( and Tony LOVES his kids too) are very upset about a pedophile coach who has molested one of the mobsters daughters. In fact, Tony expresses his outrage about this coach while he as at one of his mob businesses, badabing, a strip joint, and a girl who is likely only a year older than his daughter Meadow is dancing topless right behind him. But he is a good parent....or is he?

I think Rawat's standards for what is acceptable in the care of his own children is very different than what at least was acceptable for premie children. Certainly, his handling of the Jagdeo issue shows this, I am sure Jagdeo was never near Wadi or Daya again after I reported, in 1977, that Jagdeo was a child molester. But Jagdeo was not stopped from traveling the country where he was treated with reverence and respect and had access to premie children. Double standard?

One thing I hear is that Rawat forced his mistress, Monica Lewis, to have more than one abortion. If true, this seems bizarrely hypocritical. His kids matter only if they are Marolyn's? And why were some premies counseled by initiators that Rawat thought they should have abortions, and others forbidden too. Did he have Divine Inspiration about which kids were worth keeping? On all counts, I think the answer lies in what Rawat loves most, MONEY. If Monica had Rawat's love child, it could hurt the bottom line, in donations. If a potentially wealthy premie in the seventies had a family, they could not give their all in the ashram.

Later, Rawat, like Tony, got a little brighter, and thought long term, and premies were allowed to build businesses, and have educations and careers. The ashrams were short sighted. Just like Tony's uncle selling H on the garbage run. That way they are a continued source of income. For example, if Rawat had not taken Joe Whalen's trust fund, Joe had not dropped a full scholarship to Georgetown Law School, just think of the bucks that Rawat could be tithing off of Joe at this very moment, if he had stayed in the cult.

I am sincerely glad you are happy and your family is doing so well. That is all that matters. Your experience. I am happy, and my family is doing well too, but I happen to think that the devatation the cult and Rawat have laid on so many humans is important and worth talking about. Other people matter, not just me. I hope that you feel the same way, and I hope you read the whole site, with an open heart and and open mind.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:29:46 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: 'tremendous affection ...' so he wasn't God then?
Message:
Sazyou, forive me for saying this, but you do sound like you found Maharaji out of the pages of 'Country Life' magazine.

Strange how affiliation with him seems to have become (for some ill-informed people) socially desirable.

You really should find out more about his decidedly tawdry past, dear, before you go singing his praises to all and sundry. You know perfectly well that, if you're going to profess an interest in matters spiritual, you just HAVE to choose a teacher who's beyond reproach. There's far too many of these guru-chappies with tarnished backgrounds around. It can't be done to be seen with them, you know.

And really my dear, if you think this Maha chappie's philosophy is something you could even mention to the Barrington-Fforbes-Smythes, well, you'd better think again. 'Within inside' indeed! - the poor chap obviously doesn't even know the meaning of tautology. And 'inside' is where he should be, if you ask me, (as a guest of Her Majesty, you understand).

Maybe you've forgotten, but Maharaji is a man who once pretended to be God incarnate. Who has used people's spirituality for his own ends. Who continues to do so to this day.

That's not an easy thing to forgive. What's more, that's not something I would like to see happen to any of my friends.

I really would recommend extreme caution when dealing with M. He's deceived too many, and gotten away with far too much for his own good.

DO be a sensible girl now, and find something more suited to your social aspirations. If the likes of Richard Gere can manage to penetrate the Dalai Lama's intimate circle (if you pardon the expression), then I'm sure you can do better than the likes of Prem Pal ('I can show you God') Singh.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:21:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: Without knowing you better ......
Message:
Sazyou,

I guess you enjoyed 'E Winsdor''s parody, huh? Di you think you deserved any of that? Yeah? Which part?

See, you really do come across as just a tad superficial. You say so many things that just cry out for further discussion. Things about yourself, things about Maharaji. What I want to know is, do you really want to talk about this? I mean, really? Well, I guess I'll assume the answer's yes and that you're not just here for a few little rabbit punches and a fast getaway. Ok, let's talk.

Just the other day, EV's daily email newsletter had a quote of Maharaji's that seemed to suggest that he's offering you some form of immortality. It's around here somewhere. Maharaji was talking last fall about how, though the body's simply clay and will wear away one day, the knowledge won't. The 'heart' won't. 'Understanding' won't.

So, yeah, I take it that he's saying that you've actually got something eternal you can stay with beyond life and death.

Now you say that Maharaji's an 'inspiring and insightful teacher'. So what do you say about that teaching? What exactly was he saying? Ok, I know this isn't fair. Here, I'll find the quote for you:

People look for immortality. Immortality exists, of course, but not where you're looking for it. People go out, and there they are - jogging 900 miles every day, in the interests of keeping in shape. But saints have called this body clay. When it begins to rain, it can't be kept in shape. The seasons will come. You will slow down. And you will be tempered. Yet, even in that moment, the same reality inside you will continue to beat. The heart does not age. The real heart that I'm talking about does not age. When joy comes, how it is received does not age. Understanding does not age. Knowledge does not age. Happiness does not age. These are the things that don't change.

There it is.

Ok, so like I was asking, what's he saying? Is he giving you immortality or not?

Alright, let's be honest. You and I both know that you don't REALLY know what the fuck he's talking about. You might guess a bit but that's a far cry from really knowing, right? I mean, isn't that one of the reasons that Maharaji doesn't get you to stand up at public programs and explain his teachings on immortality and such? AS IF, huh? AS IF you know anything about that!

But yet you call him an 'insightful teacher'. So what exactly ARE his insights here? Hm?

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:38:17 (GMT)
From: Sean
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Fair play to you Jim
Message:
Sure and yer a good man yerself! Direct & insightful.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:03:34 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: 28 years later. Watch out!
Message:
As your insightful teacher about life would himself say, if things are going well that's when you're in real trouble!' I know, I heard him say it over and over again, it's one of his favourite pieces of insight isn't it? The other thing he might say is 'what the hell has all that got to do with knowledge?'

And I ask you..'what the hell has it got to with anything? whether you have a comfortable successful life or not?
I do too, I've got two dogs too!! but I have also recently realised, 30 years later, that I've been in a cult whose leader is so deeply flawed as to be positively corrupt.

I really wish there was something I could say to you that would help you to realise that too. Because, although I have been shaken to the core of my being, I now feel an immense sense of relief and freedom, to be out of the very limiting confines of the belief system that surrounds him. His claim that this is the best thing happening in this world, is just newspeak for I am the Perfect Master of our time. Do you still believe that?

I promise you there's a big wide world out here, outside of Maharaji's world, outside of 'The World of Knowledge'. Don't you see how limiting that is, it's just like any other organised cult or religious movement, it separates you from the rest of humanity. You think you've got something special. Right?

My thoughts when first visiting this website were...Well if I really do have the ultimate truth, then it's got to stand up to close scrutiny. In the words of another guru 'Face everything and avoid nothing' Can you face the truth about Maharaji?

I hope you can
Kelly

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:52:54 (GMT)
From: toby
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: 28 years later
Message:
hi,

I can only say after studying all of the information of insiders
that you are the perfect victim of the picture painted by m.

You have no Idea what is really going on at m's residence , with
his family ,but
I guess ,
you really wouldn't want to know!
It takes courage!
So dream on about the perfect master, loving father, caring husband......
It's ok

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:22:16 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: Sazyou,just one question abut the good life....
Message:
Dear Sazyou-

First of all, congratulations on the good life that you seemed to have created and been blessed with. It certainly seems idyllic in many ways.

I have a number of questions, but really just one jumps out at me at the moment, and I sincerely would like to pose it to you and your partner (and kids, if they have knowledge).

I think that most people believe that, in addition to all of the material pleasures, treats and toys that we can enjoy, (especially those of us who are doing well in affluent societies)
there is another area of life concerning values,ethics,honesty, integrity etc.,that also must be in place, for a truly wonderful life to thrive. I certainly believe this, and everyone I know does as well.

OK, enough preaching from me, but I had to set up the question.

Question is: does any of maharaji's personal life and obvious hypocrisies bother you? I'm not talking just about the allegations of drugs, alcoholism, extra marital affairs,rampant materialism etc., but the obvious 'rewriting of history' that he does himself (or has authorized) on his web site.

How can you tell other people about maharaji and knowledge without telling them 'the rest of the story'?
Don't you feel sleazy and dishonest, if you tell a new person the 'good stuff', but not the 'bad stuff' as well?
Aren't you giving them not only an incomplete, but deliberately altered and dishonest picture of what he is really like?
And this is the man that they will have a lifetime relationship with? And your skewed (whether you do it directly yourself, or indirectly through parroting Elan Vital's revised history)introduction of him to the new person is their first introduction to you and the organization?

What will they think of you, when they realize that you have hidden things from them(I am assuming that you don't tell them everything. If you do tell them everything, I applaud your honesty, however, I don't think it will help in the recruitment, or propagation drive.)Won't they mistrust you and possibly dislike you if you tell them all the sugary sweet stuff, while leaving out all the other stuff? I believe they should know EVERYTHING, then make up their own mind about it.

I am really curious about your position on this, and would sincerely welcome an honest reply.
Up until a year ago, I was a stalwart premie for 28 years,telling many people about m and k, until I woke up one day and began to see maharaji in an entirely different light. It really is an 'awakening' and a liberating experience to see the truth. I would be happy to share more of it with you if you'd like.

Sincerely,
La-ex

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 16:07:10 (GMT)
From: E. Winsdor
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: stop being so nasty about Maharajipoos
Message:
Dear Everyone (if I may)

I am blessed with a frightfully delightful family, a husband who is playful, brilliant, witty and kind and children who, goodness, actually simply adore us to bits. They go to an expensive private school just as my husband and I did. We run a large corporation and everyone who works for us also simply adores us. I'm not sure what it is about us but I suppose we just can't help but make oodles of money and please people too. We've never had a single complaint from any of our clients. We host many fab dinner parties and have a very large circle of friends all of whom we adore. We live in a large mansion surrounded by a sweet little wood. All of the animals who live in the wood love us and we love them too. We have a bouncy red setter, a sweet little peke, a fluffy little cat, along with two goldfish and several hamsters. They love us and appreciate our healthy family environment.
In my spare time I devote myself to intellectually enriching and creative pursuits as one should. My husband plays golf and we often have fun times at the Country Club with our wonderful friends.

When we are not dashing madly about being adored and making lots and lots of money we sit on our large expensive bed and force our tongues down the back of our throats, press our fingers onto our eyeballs and stick our thumbs into our ears. Not to each other of course. That would be silly! But I must say my sexy husband has suggested it a few times but I just giggled and told him to keep his naughty little tongue to himself- the devil!

We follow a plump multi-millionare Guru who lives in Malibu. He is just adorable and we like the way he makes things so simple for us. We have long realised that it is rather crude to worry about social welfare issues. We rather miss Maggie and think that this Tony man is rather loud. I'm sure that Maggie would have approved of the way our Guru has become a self-made man, so to speak. It is sooo dull to harp on about other people having more money. You simply have to make it your self. As far as we're concerned if people have problems it is their own fault. It is exactly what our Guru so often tells us. We think that the people who post on this rather ghastly forum should really just stop being so dull. We don't like the nasty things you say about our Maharajipoos and we wish you would stop. So there!

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Date: Wed, Mar 07, 2001 at 08:50:13 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: E. Winsdor
Subject: One of the funniest replies
Message:
I've ever read!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:00:38 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: E. Winsdor
Subject: That was a ' HOOT' .... (nt)
Message:
hoot
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 00:31:16 (GMT)
From: mildew warp
Email: None
To: E. Winsdor
Subject: stop being so nasty about Maharajipoospotsamoney
Message:
On how true E. Winsdor. I too think concern about social issues such as redistribution of wealth and all that are so dull. Really I would rather concentrate on myself, and those finger-poking techniques are just sooper for that. after I have gazed at my own metaphorical navel under my blanket, well, the whole of the rest of my wonderfool day is spent thinking about how best to fulfill myself. I have found like you that the pursuit of luxury is actually the most profound spiritual practice -really I don't know what that silly Jesus chap was on about.Of course I do have a former friend (moldy warp) whom i don't really like to talk about, but I will cos I like a good gossip. Well she's gone completely off her trolley and thinks there is more to life than getting lots of money from poor people and spending it on fine champagne, yachts and all the other important things in life. I heard a rumour that she has even joined the Labour Party and was last seen talking to a homeless person (yuk!)
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:03:11 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: 28 years later / this story sounds too familiar
Message:
Our stories sound remarkably similiar, I have been married 18 years to a wonderful, brillant talented women, whom I met as a premie. No kids of our own, but my children from a former marriage love and respect us, we are close to our living mothers, and family members and have many wonderful and interesting friends. We have done very well finacially, through business investments and good fortune I could retire today if I chose to, we take great vacations where ever we want to go quite often.

We live in a large beautiful home, with a big swimming pool, with flower gardens and a fishpond. We dabble in musicial enterprises, we play in bands locally, she a vocalist, I a bass player. We have 4 pets three purebread shelty dogs and a 16 year old cat. We are interested in literature and we write for our own amusement.
A very comfortable, happy and normal life.

Apparently the main difference here in our stories is that
I joined a cult in 1972 I was deluded for 28 years and I emotionally crippled and enslaved myself to a dependancy on the Lord of the Universe and his cult.

Congratulations on being so clever as to have avoided all of that.

The tone of your post does not impress me as being open to an inquiry of the questions you pose. You seem more like a captured bird in a guilded cage using your creature comforts and accoplishments in life as an agruement in favor of your position to stay where you are, than of a person seeking honest answers.

I suggest you look around this site and review some of the facts regarding Maharaji's activities, fundraising, and ethical standards. Read the journals entries, check out the origins GMJ's
teachings based on the Radhasoami traditions and gather some more data.

For me amoung other things it took realizing that the techniques are quite ordinary, they are quite commonly dispensed particularly in India and many other places of the world and the dispensor does not refer to himself as the Lord of the Universe, or even master. They are typically veiwed as simple life lessons and are freely passed about with no strings and emotional bondage attached.

In other cultures, one can easily declare oneself a sadhu although it usually is an elder and then spend their remaining years wandering freely about and revealing the wisdom and/or knowledge. There is no necessity for a master, what you know is already within you and what you have is the ability to master your own destiny. Unless of course you give away your free will and surrender your independance willingly, naively, or are unknowingly duped out of it.

Maharaji passed along this same info, only he capitalized on peoples ignorance of Indian traditions and naivety (particularly westerners) and led us to believe that we cannot understand our own inner nature without dependancy on him for the rest of our lives. He sets up this master devotee relationship and locks up our perspective and free will forever. This thing about the master being more important than anything else is a lie, it is emotionally and spiritually crippling and we pretend like it isn't. This is a tactic a cult leader uses to create dependancy.

I bought the story because M was one of the first and most dramatic (he attracted my attention being 14 years old) of the east indian gurus to show up here with the ancient meditation methods and the age old wisdoms (satsang) of the Hindi culture?
I was in the right head space then, young and impressionable full of youthful exuberance and curiousity and dissatisfied with social conventions and answers.

I used to think he had extraordinary abilities, now I no longer think so. What is so extraordinary about a man who falls victim to his own ordinary sexual desires and has extra marital affairs. He professes to take a stand against drugs and alcohol, but it has been reported by former premies who had close contact with him that he smoked, drank and used drugs regularly. See the Michael Dettmers reports in the archives.

A cult leader lets the cult hold him above the standards that he recommends of his followers, if we become aware of the leaders indecretions, the cult expects us to justify those inconsistancies as the masters test of our faith. The cult does not require the same rules that apply to the folowers apply to the cult leader. Hey he did it for your own good, it was just a lila, you passed the test, now please send in your monthly remittance and get ready for the next one. Through my own eyes I see the wool being pulled over them, while in the cult I gladly pulled the wool down on myself and others under the guise of a divine game (lila) supported by and created by group concepts. Where is this kind of logic accepted or apply anywhere else in life except in a cult?

I took a look at the greedy accumulation of wealth, the weak morality, the constant demand for more money to support a lavish lifestyle. I look at those facts myself and I simply see pure greed, and bad example. If I look at them from the standpoint of cult mentality then I can say he is the lord and he deserves more. This impaired judgement frees me from personal responsibility for independant decisions and lets the group (cult) answer and decide. This is what a cult does.

I look at the stripped down version of what used to be knowledge, satsang, service, and meditation to todays dry and sterile video events. Only a cult leader could convince me years ago that the only way to liberation was through the 3 legged stool, satsang service and Meditation.
Then change his mind and stop personal satsang, turn service into little more than fundraising for money and turn the knowledge sessions into a group of large impersonal affairs and offer no answers for this course of action other than leaving me to sift through this underlying agreement that I am not supposed to think about why he does things, he is god incarnate.
This is cult mentalily and it is sublime and it is perpetrated and ingrained by our silent acceptance.

If your husband cheated on you, lied to you, expected you to hold him above accountability for his actions , misrepresented himself towards you, was abusive. What emotions might you feel and what amends would you require for him to reinstate himself in your high regard again?

I'll bet you would be angry, hurt and probably lose trust in him, you would demand explanations, and you would require accountability, to name a few remedys. You would act this way because your normal healthy emotions are intact. Or would you go into complete denial cover up the secrets and emotionally cripple yourself to protect the relationship?

How is it we do not deal that same way with the guru ,why is it a different emotional investment there, Ask yourself is this dysfunctional? perhaps crippled? you said it! Now do some research, this site has much information and links containing data you need to be aware of.

This is cult mentality, and it is fostered, it is imbedded deeply and if it sounds familiar or rings true then it is probably is, Yes I was in a cult , I was emotionally enslaved and deluded for 28 years and so are you.

At least I can admit it, and I let go a month ago, I am not sure you are ready to Sezyou. It would surprise me very much if you admitted to anything similar in the rest of our familar story but then again you were never in a cult and I was!

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 04:09:34 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: years later its similar
Message:
>For me amoung other things it took realizing that the techniques are quite ordinary, they are quite commonly dispensed particularly in India and many other places of the world and the dispensor does not refer to himself as the Lord of the Universe, or even master.

It took you 28 years to figure this part out?
This was fairly common information about 28 years ago as I remember it.
If you have never had a good strong experience doing the meditation and what M has said has not inspired you, then you are doing the right thing changing your opinion.

How can you see the fundraising stuff as a big deal. I have heard and read lots of the dollar numbers over the years and contributed some myself. Tiger Woods is making $2M for playing a tournament this weekend. Now thats some quick big money.
And apparently the Beatles made $70M last year.
Now what is the total real EV budget?

People who continue to listen to M talks do it because they get something personally out of it. If they don't, they leave. No mystery.

CD

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 12:15:03 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: years later its similar
Message:
For me amoung other things it took realizing that the techniques are quite ordinary,they are quite commonly dispensed particularly in India and many other places of the world and the dispensor does not refer to himself as the Lord of the Universe, or even master.

It took you 28 years to figure this part out?

No it did not, I found that info out in 1972, just before I left for Inda , but I deluded myself for 28 years because I wanted to believe the Myth that M was LOTU.

How can you see the fundraising stuff as a big deal.

I don't see it as a big deal. I know that it takes lots of money to run any huge operation and fund the cause.
What I suggest is that he funnels more than his fair share into his own pocket for his own selfish purposes.
There are many worthy causes that we once were led to believe that GMJ was going to champion that he somehow never did follow through on.
If you were around back in the early 70's, just hum a few bars of who is Guru Maharaji , and when you get to the part where it says 'watch who'll be feeding all the people' then tell me where and when did that benevolent attitude vaporize?
Where is Maharaji's charitable committment, even Werner Erhard of the EST movement who also lined his pockets based on self awareness movements developed and funded many humanitarian projects and gave back to many worthy projects, most notably the hunger project, which he has made a huge global impact on.

It seems that GMJ can take it but he can't dish it out, money and tithing that is.
If he has please enlighten me,
Thanks

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 10:06:05 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: LIAR!!
Message:
 


USELESS LIAR!

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:13:03 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Well said as usual, Brian
Message:
Hey, Brian, would you please email me when you get a chance. Just want to say hi and talk about music a bit.

jamesheller@home.com

Thanks,

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:06:02 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Very eloquent Brian - you're so autodidactic. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 20:26:07 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Good advice for Sezyou,she should also become more
Message:
autodidact (self taught, I admit I had to look it up in the dictionary!!!!} A good new word for my new outlook on life
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 17:31:15 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Sezyou
Subject: One simple question, Sezyou
Message:
You write very persuasively and with obvious conviction so my question is: If all that you say is true, and I'm sure believe it is true, why are you reading and posting on this site?

Oh, I lied, I want to ask one more question.

You wrote: So, explain to me again how I’m deluded and emotionally crippled and am part of a cult?
Warmly, Sezyou

My question: Is that a rhetorical question or a subconcious cry for help? Ask yourself that from the third row in Portland.

Sincerely and with concern for your next 28 years,
Postie

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:29:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: That's a great post Brian. (nt)
Message:
anth
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:15:14 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Sazyou, show us yer tits !!!
Message:
Aw heck, somebody had to say it...
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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 07:34:56 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: gErRy, show us yer tits !!!
Message:
No, gErRy - not somebody or just anybody - it had to be you.

Don't you have any respect? We're talking about sacred stuff here, like material success, retirement accounts and shopping and you have to be so uncouth.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:26:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Brian, let's get serious for a moment...
Message:
...Where do you get your olive oil from?

Anth, well we go off to Tuscany every year because we've got this friend who's got this beautiful blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah goes clear after about blah blah blah blah blah blah couldn't get it on the plane blah blah blah blah blah blah frightfully funny.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:35:04 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: I get mine at Bi-Mart, I paid 4 bucks for the
Message:
exclusive lifetime membership, the membership fee keeps out the riffraff you know
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:36:19 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: An invitation to Sazyou.
Message:
Hi Sazyou

First of all, I’m fortunate to have the most wonderful family. I’ve been married for thiry one years to a funny, creative, loving, brilliant woman(who I met before living in the ashram, by the way). We have two smart, sweet, strong and beautiful grown-up kids who actually – knock on wood – like and love us and enjoy our and each other’s company.

Sazyou, you sound like one of a dying species, and you're very a valuable member of your group. You give it credibility.

I wonder if you have the courage to discuss your master and his teachings with me? You're the one experiencing 'knowledge', doing it right. I've obviously got incredibly confused somewhere down the line.

Don't you think a little open, free, friendly discussion could perhaps close the gap a little?

Whaddya say Sazyou? That's what these forums are for. So people can discuss things?

Are you up for it? I'm happy to answer any questions of yours, if you'll answer a few of mine.

Do you accept?

First question, what is your opinion of what Michael Dettmers wrote about Maharaji's shennanigans? (If you haven't read it, follow the link at the top of the page to Ex-Premie Org. It's got a link on the Home Page.)

Anth treasurer of the debating society.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:07:15 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: 28 years later- I'm free
Message:
Hi Sazyou,

Sorry if the comment I made earlier was offensive but you did come across to me as awfuly smug you know.

I probably would have come over in the same way too a year ago , so I do understand your perspective.

I never considered myself as belonging to a cult. However, one important definition of a cult is that it is an autocratic organisation where the followers have no say in how it is run. Maha is a tyrannical dictator who doesn't even answer polite questions from his followers or wavering followers. He won't even allow you after 28 yrs to express your own honest experience of this fabulous 'knowledge' . Why? Because you can't be trusted not to screw up and say the wrong thing.

I believe that you do enjoy the practice of the techniques, why not, I can still enjoy them too if I so choose. I even understand that maha inspires you through his discourses to persue the dream of higher consciousness.

However , many memebers of other cults find their leaders inspiring. Moonies, Sai babaists, evangelists, Scientologists and all the other ists , no different. They too do not acknowledge that they are hooked into cults.

Seems that your particular cult is more low profile and low key than some of the others. Maha is certainly careful nowadays not to present himself in a messianic context (but you insiders know the big non secret that he's still the LORD isn't he ?)

You mention very proudly that your all right Jack, happy marriage , good business ,'normal ' external life. You perhaps think that this means you can't be in a cult? Scientolgists and Moonies , Mormons etc are full to the brim with rich , middle class members , so what?

I know that I can't talk you out of your affiliation with your 'non-cult', so that's not my aim. As someone said , if you are happy with it , bully for you. Have you got the t- shirt 'I am NEVER in denial ?'

Krishnamurti had some good words to say

' You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority, which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers - a miracle- transport you to this eternal realm of freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority. '

More...

'Organisations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you free; nor can organised worship, nor the immolation of yourself for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourself into an organisation, nor throwing yourself into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters , but you do not place it on an alter and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organisations become your chief concern. ' How many members are there in it ?'

and.. ' Again you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development , the purification and in the incorruptibilty of that self alone , is the Kingdom of Eternity .'

You may think you are strong in the fortress of servitude to Maha but he has you caught in weak dependency. What if most of the exposés that this website contains are true? Would that not matter to you ? Premies always say that they have had so many great experiences , how could he not be a true master. But Rumi said something which implied that if one is sincere then even following an imposter could bring that person good spiritual results. I think it's you who have created all the good stuff in your life. One day you may realise that , drop the guru and experience real freedom , but then again maybe you're stuck in a cult for life.

It's your choice whether or not you remove the blinkers and let go of the fairytale.

Enjoy the happy clapping.

Hal

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:25:10 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: 28 years later--me too
Message:
were you in the ashram? were you a housemother? were you at IHQ? did you break your vows while in the ashram? did you have sex there? smoke? drink? get high? get pregnant?
did you go to millennium? soul rush? did you abort an education to do service?
did you pay off the astrodome debt? did you ever see your heard earned money get sucked up in one visit by someone grabbing it for maharji instead of what it was being saved for?
did you leave the ashram due to a relationship? a child? marriage? did you get married because maharaji did?
did you break a marriage to move back in after you moved out? did you abandon children to do it? a spouse? friendships? family?
did you surrender and shut out your own inner warnings, in order to follow agya? did you supress conflict? squelch intelligent discussion? dismiss emotional reactions? silence other's concerns? have no patience for confusion? difference? oppositions?
did you believe that The World was illusory? Maya? did you believe that material desires were not to be indulged in? that everything was for maharaji, not for you?
did you get sick at DECA gold plating toilets? violate the EPA and OSHA laws about toxic waste with not a pang of conscience?
for 28 years you have been admiring a man who has been exposed to be a hopeless alcoholic, a drug user, a smoker,a sexaholic, an adulterer, a hit and run committer of vehicular manslaughter, a hypocrit, a liar, an evader of the laws of nations, an embezzeler of millions of dollars and a self promoting fraud who does not even practice the very Knowledge he purports to teach. He no longer teaches anything at all.
there is nothing left to him now but maintenance of a deadly, top heavy, desperate grift. the bigger they come, the harder they fall. the bigger the front, the bigger the rear.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 11:50:22 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: janet, we should...
Message:
...put this post on the back of our EPO business cards.

Brilliant. See my post above, it would have taken me ages to get there, but I hope she's up for a bit of discussion anyway.

Not one of these premie jerks who come here, read their speech, then run away because they can't take the 'hate'.

What a strange perspective they have.

Anth who by the way has a great consulting business that has been running successfully for the past 18 years working all over Europe. Also, we only eat Mozerella made from Buffallo milk, not cow milk. And if you don't go to Tuscany to get your olive oil yourself, forget it. You know the stuff in the stores is 80% Spanish, even if it's got 'Extra .....blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 10:23:55 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Well sazyou....
Message:
Janet, your questions were very powerful. Great job.

Here are a few more. Sazyou, how much time have you devoted to reading this site? How much of the site have you read? Have you read the 'Truth About Maharaji' on Sir Dave's website? Do you know that Mahatma Jagdeo was permitted to travel the world and molest children, even after Maharaji and those who ran the cult were aware of his behavior?

Are you close to Maharaji? Where do you sit at events? Were you or are you responsible for running organizational activities? What did you or do you do? Were you ever an instructor? How much money do you donate to EV and/or Maharaji every year? If you are so proud of what you do and about your familial situation, why are you posting anonymously? Is sonofa, who posted above, one of your children?

I am not one of the people who believes it is my responsibility to convince premies they are deluded. I come here to speak the truth about my own past in the cult -- good and bad -- and to support others who are in the process of or have left the cult. The information is here for you to take or leave.

Instead of asking us to prove why you are deluded sazyou, why don't you try answering the questions posed to you in this thread and then we'll talk some more. Your replies will be very educational for all of us, and maybe even for you.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:43:05 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: OK
Message:
explain to me again how I?m deluded and emotionally crippled and am part of a cult?

You have followed a lie, and made it your truth.

Also, you seem deeply and repulsively selfish and solipsist, as there is no indication you have a thought or care for the casualties caused by the things you worship.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:15:41 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: SF
Message:
By the way I know lots of SF writers. What is your name? I'd like to read your work.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:01:11 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: My , my , aren't we smug . nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:54:12 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: 28 years later
Message:
I guess following 'The Lord of the Universe' must have helped with the science fiction...
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:39:08 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Sazyou
Subject: gaga agagag
Message:
ga aga ga ga ga.

Oh you sound so cute. No I don't feel like spoiling your well put life or your post, so leave me alone cause I hate rawat and anything to do with him including you. Bet you you will contribute $800 to Amaroo too and get a front set, just don't sit on the left side of the row, cause that's were the shit coming from.

Have you been sent here by EV?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:31:20 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: not given
To: Everyone
Subject: Live and Let Live
Message:
I say let those who claim they are happy with M be happy with their claim. If it's lie they are living they will know it at their core. My advise to them is this, ' to thine own self be true'. My own experience is that M played on my hopes and deepest aspirations. A stubborn belief that some how the world could be transformed into somthing more ideal. Letting go of that belief and learning to accept life on it's own terms has been a long painful journey towards emotional maturity. I wanted life to be one continueous orgasm, I wanted to live happily ever after in M's three ring circus Utopian fantasy. He was the dream weaver and I was under his spell. But in his drama, the role he played became a means to another end. Not establishing Peace on Earth as he declared he would, but satisfing his insatiable desires for wealth, power and luxury. If you as a premie are sincerely satisfied with what has become of his mission and your role in it then so be it. I just hope that you are being honest with yourself. And frankly I doubt that you are.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:43:07 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Go for the jugular salam
Message:
jjjjjj
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:49:34 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Can not do that
Message:
Sounds like a lady (I think). Plus am going through rehab, no bashing premies, do not know how long it's gonna last but.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:02:33 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: salam
Message:
salam,

You make me laugh this Saturday morning.

How's it going? I had a crazy day last Monday. I was arrested on the way to work. Ha ha ha.

Anth the strippenkartjefraud

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 14:09:36 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: That's what you get for selling old cars
Message:
you pommy ripoff merchant that doesn't know which March is he talking about. Well I hope that lawyer that run away with your wife was there to get you out, or was she arrested too? sheesh. Better ask for you last post on f5.

This is costing me money getting all this info on IRCC, any donations?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:08:50 (GMT)
From: Connie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: From the mouth of my son
Message:
Hi everyone.

I just related a story to someone in connection with trying to fit in those feelings of bliss that many seemed to have experienced.

I thought it worthwhile to post it here.

I had a long, fantastic talk to my son the other day. I explained about my involvement with m. What I thought it and m were, what it meant to me, and why it was the priority in my life, sometimes at the expense of my family, which included him. I was making amends.

I showed him a book I had kept, Holi'79. We went through it together, looking at the pictures, both of us reading in turn aloud passages from m's satsang. At the end he said 'Oh my god, my mum's been in a cult! I laughed.

I said to him 'What took you a few minutes to see so obviously took me nearly 28 years. The only excuse I have is that it all seemed so real'.

He got the message loud and clear that m was saying he was something 'pretty spectacular'. He then pointed out to me that he knew of the numerous times I had personal interactions with m, one on one, and knew it had made me very happy. I could only reply that yes, I was happy because of what I felt while in those situations and I didn't understand it myself.

At the moment, I was putting that to one side, in the too hard box, as they greatly contributed to my continuing involvement.

It wasn't enough anymore, putting up with all the weirdness, pain and abuse, hanging out for the promise of those brief moments in an uncertain distant future. Perhaps one day I will understand, perhaps not.

Now and then I watch Star Trek, and am really fascinated by the character 7 of 9. Watching her disentangling herself from a collective to individuality strikes a chord, as does the loosening of her distant reserve. The last episode I watched began with her looking at herself in a mirror and trying to smile, all she could manage was a slight upturn of the mouth. Hope! She was then placed in a mother figure role, and through death and loss of another, one more chink in her armour had been breached. She no longer wants to be part of what she once was.

I feel like her. Wanting to embrace all the new uncertain things that are opening up for her, but aware of the call of the siren song of the past.

This is such a roller coaster ride for me, fast and swift ups and downs, crumbling dreams, building hopes.

Sincerely
C

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 12:13:53 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: From the mouth of my son
Message:
Hi Connie,

One of my sons Luke, was about 19, and in Brighton with some friends, when Captain Rawat was giving one of his lectures on how important it is to surrender to him.

Dot and I were premies, and Luke decided to bring a few of his friends along to see the Captain. It was a 'premie only' programme, but Luke knew the score and got in with his friends. They saw the Captain in all his vain, bullying, stupid glory, and for Luke, I think it was the moment he decided he'd never have anything to do with it for the rest of his life.

Sometime later, when we talked about it, he gave me a kind look that said, 'I don't want to hurt you with what I'm going to tell you, but..', then told me, 'You know those film's you see of Hitler and the Nazis, where everyone in the crowd is doing the same thing? Well it sort of reminded me of that..'

Anth, 'They fuck you up, your mum and dad.'

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 05:29:30 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: AJW
Subject: Oft comes oatmeal
Message:
Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Interesting reaction, though.
Back in '79 I took my new flame Ralphie to a video event.
He sat through the whole thing but had only one comment afterward: 'He's just a little Hitler.'

That was the last video event we attended.
Ralphie's mom was a Hitler Youth, so he knows whereof he speaks.

Babs the non-heiling

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 12:59:36 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Seig Heil....Ki Jai!
Message:
I attended an event in London in 78 or 79 with a premie friend and her young brother. He also said M sounded just like Hitler, and all that Bhole shrieking with arms in the air, just like Zieg Heil. It really freaked him out. I think that was quite a common reaction in those days.
Kelly
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:40:15 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: Out of the mouths of babes
Message:
When my son was 18 I took him to see Rev Rawat.

His take: ''A jumped-up pseudo-divine quasi-god.''

Of course I rationalized it by saying his mind had been poisoned by his ex-premie mother. I will have to tell him one day that I am sorry I did not respect his view of the Bratguru. That was ten years ago.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:44:03 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Connie
Subject: From the mouth of my son
Message:
How old is you're son? Maybe he can write his thoughts on something, I will put them on rawatsucks web site.


Ilove Star Trek, and I love 7o9. This week she had to look after a droid sent by the Borgs, she mothered him.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:04:33 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Maharaji has demanded an invitation to speak
Message:
The official announcement is now out:

Maharaji has accepted an invitation to speak to people who have received the techniques of Knowledge and to those preparing to receive Knowledge at an event in Portland Oregon, USA at the Arlene Schnitzer Concert Hall on Sunday, March 18th, 2001.

On the morning of Monday, March 19th there will be an opportunity for a Knowledge review for those who have received the techniques of Knowledge.

In the afternoon of the 19th, the event will continue for people who are preparing to receive Knowledge and for those who have received Knowledge, with the North American Premiere of new 'Foundation videos'.

These four new videos contain entirely new material, written and produced to present the foundations of Knowledge and Maharaji's message.

Registration will begin on Monday, March 5th, at 6pm Pacific time. Enough seating is available for all guests, so you can make your travel plans immediately!

Full information is available at http://events.elanvital.org and at local events.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 19:04:21 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: ahmahchizit? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 20:57:10 (GMT)
From: sUcH
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: It costs no sense!But you got Visa + smartcard?(nt
Message:
0000000000000000000000000
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:15:49 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Maharaji has demanded an invitation to speak
Message:
Ha Ha! Good point Postie. How exactly does this process work - anyone?

Do a bunch of people in a city, or Elan Vital or whoever, plan these events and then propose them to Maharaji or does he have a hand in the conception?

If the latter is the case he could hardly be accurately described as 'accepting an invitation to speak'

Very good point and one that made me laugh!

'I demand an invitation to speak to you all! See it is done immediately! '

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 07:20:24 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: Maharaji has demanded an invitation to speak
Message:
I am from Portland and for the first time in years I am out of the Loop, I haven't been notified of anything pertaining to this momentus occasion. Others in the community have been contacted because I got emailed from premie friends and anonomyous ex's here indicating that they are awaiting the big event.

I attribute my exclusion to the fact that I outed myself on the ex-premie forum by full name, I would not want or have it any other way. For me I am either all out or not at all, damn the torpedos, full speed ahead with my new life.

Outside forces would have had to pull this event together for this community of vicious, back biting, power crazed church ladies. This community cannot even civily decide on who is going to turn on the VCR for the weekly events with out a major confrontation.

My last gasp at service in trying to participate with the weekly video events was a huge lesson in the futility of dealing with the massive spiritual egos here clammering for preferred service positions lending closest proximity to GMJ and for seats closest to the stage at the next big event.

The service of today has a formula that goes like this show-up, (bring bodies) shut-up (don't talk, let M say it all) and put-up (money that is).

A mind is a terrible thing to waste, especially on a conman and his cult, I am glad that I am recovering mine.


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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 09:00:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: Maharaji has demanded an invitation to speak
Message:
Brian, I've been out on FV for 2 months and just got ADDED ro the rapid communication system.

The way the ''invitations'' work as I understand it is that the city participation team sends an invitation. The international event planning team then checks to see how much money is available in the community, what venues are available for the ''client'' and whether there are enough ''synchronized'' church-ladies who have attended training seminars in order to do the extremely difficult service of ushering and straightening white table-cloths.

The international event planning team then takes over completely, books the venue, brings in the AV people, security and Dunrite to film the event and the ''client'' shows up. The city teams have no say in what happens exzcept to cough up the cash.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:16:07 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Denver Unity School
Message:
Could anyone who knows anything about the Denver Unity School in the 70s please speak out.

Jagdeo visited the place and took a special interest in the children there.

There is a very strong chance he abused children within the community.

Could you please look through old copies of Divine Times and see if there is any information about the school in them. Names are important.

If anyone has contact with people who were involved in the Denver community could you please speak out.

I hope you can help - this is very important.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 18:01:14 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Denver Unity School
Message:
Sally Vanmanen was a teacher a Unity School in Denver, and later became an Initiator. She was from Michigan, and she, and several others, attended the Steiner/Waldorf teacher academy in Detroit, and were actually sent there by the cult, and then came back and taught at the school.

A woman I knew, Laura Davis, also went to the Waldorf teacher training school in Detroit, but left the cult in about 1976, before she ever taught at Unity School in Denver. By the way, Laura Davis has written a book, or maybe several books, on surviving child sexual abuse. In her adult years, Laura remembered that she had been sexually abused by her grandfather. Apparently, her parents refused to accept the truth and I think her book is partly about that. I've seen Laura on television discussing this issue from the standpoint of the courts and public policy.

Brian McDermott was head of the school for awhile, but I don't think too long, because he became a touring initiator in the later 70s.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 13:37:56 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Abi
Subject: Denver Unity School
Message:
Hi Abi,

I knew most of the teachers at Unity School Denver. Some of them, became friends, Michael Blakemore in particular. Michael stayed with us for a week once in London a few years ago. He was the principal there. Last time I saw him, we were both premies.

There were also a couple who got married, an English guy called Martin and Phyllis, an American. I went to their wedding. I got to know them quite well too.

Whether Michael is still following Captain Rawat or not, I don't know, but I think he’d co-operate with any of your queries Abi. I say this for two reasons.

He is a good person and purely from an individual moral standpoint, he’d be on your side and supportive. When he was principal of Unity School, I met him at the Teacher’s Conference in Tuscon. Afterwards I went to Denver and spent a week with the teachers there doing courses in the school. After the week, he invited me to come to the school and teach. When I got back to the UK, the ruling junta in the cult put a stop to the move.

Anyway, one result was Michael and I remained friends.

I said there were two reasons I thought he’s co-operate. The second reason is even more powerful than the first. He was the principal of the school and he was responsible. Teachers, like Doctors, have a professional ethic. For a teacher to hide, or cover up for a paedophile who was in any way connected to their school would be as unthinkable as a doctor whipping out body parts and putting them into a vacuum flask during an operation, to sell later. It’s is simply not an option for a teacher. If a teacher does this, then he or she might as well be participating in the abuse. This is why, when I found out what had happened to you in Cornwall Abi, I reported Jagdeo to the police.

When we started to publicise Jagdeo’s crimes, I spoke to Angus and Sally. The cult contacted Angus, (who had been principal at the second Unity School, in the UK) via Ron Jeaves, one of the investigations it denies it ever had . Angus and Sally had left the cult years before, soon after Unity School UK closed. They were both extremely disturbed and concerned to discover what Jagdeo had been doing. They were also completely supportive and sympathetic. Sally was particularly upset. They both expressed a strong desire that Jagdeo be brought to justice and were eager to co-operate with any investigation. As it turned out, Jagdeo went down to Cornwall after the school closed, and they’d left by then, so it wasn’t relevant. But their feelings were as strong as mine Abi.

And I think I told you, when I went down to Cornwall, a premie in the village who we both know well, came and had a chat with me, sort of on behalf of everybody there. He asked me what was going on. I told him. He told me that all the premies, without exception, were completely behind any campaign to bring Jagdeo to justice and gave you their unconditional support.

I’ve been in email correspondance with one person who was at Unity School in Denver. This person told me about Jagedeo’s private sessions there with children, “when the lights were sometimes turned out”. I’ll send you the email of this person. I know they’ll be really happy to help you.

If you can get in touch with Michael, or any of the teachers, that’s a good place to start. I also had two good friends involved in the school called Phil and Paddy Noble-

Shit, I think you know them too Abi. They were at Wringford for a while in the early days. They have a black son called Michael who was at Unity school. Paddy is a poet. Phil is a musician. (Michael would probably like to read that book I sent you, about growing up with New Age parents). They were involved in the Denver school for quite a while.

I’ll put my email up, so if any of the teachers from Denver prefer to get in touch anonymously, or want to ask any questions, they can get in touch. (I don’t put private correspondance up without the writers consent.)

Anyway, take care Abi.

Things are starting to move again. Just when they thought it was safe to get back in the water….

Mr Ginn (Art and Drama)

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 16:45:06 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Denver Unity School info from DT
Message:
The Divine Times article from January 1977 is a feel good story about how Unity School started and evolved. It reports that Unity School was started bt Sharon Keller after Guru Puja Montrose in 1972. There's some stuff about Steiner / Waldorf education training. Mimsy Kessler was there from 1973 to 1975. In 1975, Sharon Keller turned the school over to Brian McDermott from Canada - later an instructor / initiator. The only other person mentioned by name is Alan Cunningham who I believe was involved in the school. Doctor Ed Hansleck (sp?) is pictured as part of a celebration but I don't recall if he was a teacher there. There was tall guy I remember named Joe from Florida who taught there also.

This a bit sketchy so maybe someone else will recall other teachers involved.

Good luck

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 18:40:31 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Sharon Keller and Rudolph Steiner
Message:
Hi Postie,

I met Sharon in 1973. She didn't stick around the cult too long. She became interested in Anthroposophy (Rudolph Steiner's teachings) and last I heard (over 20 years ago), had quit being a premie and become an anthroposophist.

Some of the teachers from the British Unity school got into Anthroposophy, in varying degrees, via their contact with Waldorf Schools. Both Unity Schools were based on the Waldorf system, created by Rudolph Steiner.

Steiner was the guy who split from the Theosophical movement when they brought Krishnamurti over from India and proclaimed him the Avatar. He started his own mystical society called The Anthroposophical Society.

Anway, it absorbed a few premie teachers from Unity School on both sides of the pond.

Anth who never quite became an Anthroposophist because of severe disturbance in the etheric body caused by a bad experience with a fish head when I was two.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 21:18:09 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Was Steiner a Nazi sympathiser ?
Message:
Or have I got it wrong .

I don't know much about him or his method .

I do know that S . Berlusconi , possible next P.M of Italy , sends his daughter to a Steiner school.

Good luck to him , I have no axe to grind in the matter.

What interests me is the process by which weirdness becomes normal.

I'm finding that my old Anarcho/Tory instincts ,are rising refreshed from the ashes of New Age / we love you but you can't do that ,you bastard , thinking.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 19:44:45 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: post@rmi.net
To: AJW
Subject: Anth - I also found a publication called . . .
Message:
'All God's Children' from the mid-70's. What's it worth to you to not have the editor mentioned here?

Postie - trying to make up for lost time via blackmail

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 04:44:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: HEY!!!!! ISN'T THAT CENSORSHIP OR SOMETHING??
Message:
Netiquette dictates that you simply MUST post the contents of that publication, Postie. Especially the editorial if there is one. We wouldn't want the editor to hid his light under a Bushmills, as it were.

Who was it anyway? Sounds like something from Jonestown.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 10:37:11 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Postie, name your price....
Message:
...I'm cringing already.

My day is ruined, nay my week, nay my life.

Please, take my children, use them as firewood.

Anything.

Don't Postie. Please don't

Anth (sob sob where did I go wrong?)

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 16:39:38 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Denver Unity School
Message:
Brilliant. All of that is very useful.

I remember Michael well. He was a sweety. I have a photo of him sitting next to Josh outside a tent at a festival Wales. We were always meeting up at festivals and running about irritating premies.

I know the Millbrook premies are good people and I'm still fond of them - nice to know they all believe. But I knew that already - still in contact. Someone we both know who was a little girl at the time and still lives there got hurt too.
I think of her a lot.

I always thought highly of Angus and Sally.

Do you remember the parents of Tristen and his sister? They moved back to London. I think his Dad worked for DLM.

Also a girl who was a bit older than me and who had lots of older brothers - do you remember her? They didn't stay long.

e-mail me direct and we can talk some more

and thanks Anth the Gladiator

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 05:13:49 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: tristan---bishop? son of annie bishop?
Message:
i cant think of too many kids named tristan. i babysat tristan in denver when he was 4, and always felt a special bond to him because of that. if thats who you are thinking of, his mother was annie bishop, a folksinger with long golden blond hair and freckles and an angelic voice who sang in 401 of the kittredge bldg at satsang a lot. she made an album of her most 'famous'premie songs {'the sun is shining again', 'now that we've found him'...} at some point, under the name 'annie marra'. at the time i babysat tristan, she was in a relationship with johnny adorney and he was always at their house. tristan was named for the character tristan ['tristan and isolde'] in the king arthur fables, and was really into all things arthurian. our favorite pastime on babysitting nights was to make tiny modeling clay figures of the knights and set them up in stories and act them out on his bedroom floor.

i do believe she traveled to england and lived there as well. tristan was an extraordinary child, intelligent beyond his years. i have always wondered what became of him and what he grew up to be.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 14:22:30 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: tristan---bishop? son of annie bishop?
Message:
Thanks for giving me all that information. I'm really not sure if he's the same Tristan though, as the boy I remember was very London and had a mum and dad and a sister.

btw I really enjoy your posts!

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 06:03:12 (GMT)
From: D.U.S.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: tristan---bishop?YES, he lives in SF,I believe,and
Message:
Tristan wss the son of Annie Bishop, the angelic singer from Denver.
Annie is married to Vinnie Marra and they have about 5 kids from different marriages and live in Chapel Hill, NC.

Both are into the maha, but are annoyed with the 'church lady' scene in their community. They come around, but are not 'gung ho' about the organizational people and activities.

Tristan was into acting and music, and has supposedly done some very good musical work.
He has totally rejected the maha(I don't think he ever received K) and feels that he is a false prophet(profit)...
He is a Christian, and sings a lot of Christian stuff.
I think he lived in Tenn. for awhile(music related), and last I heard he was married with a child, and living in the SF,Ca. area...
One of his buddies, Spencer Jeffers was killed in a car accident a few years ago, and Tristan was worried that if Spencer had received knowledge and accepted the maha as his saviour, that he would have gone to hell...

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 09:44:53 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: Jai_Choix@webv.net
To: D.U.S.
Subject: tristan---bishop?YES, he lives . I'm glad to hear
Message:
that annie cant stomach the crap of the present scene. its shows her heart is still clean. spencer jeffers must have been the son of sharon jeffers, who i saw at one of the event in santa monica last year. if i had known then, i would have asked about it.

Tristan need not worry about 'hell'. it doesnt exist. i hope he comes to find out in his christian walk that all is forgiven at the time of leaving the body. i did extensive personal research on this after my mother died in 1976 and it took me decades, including personal appearances from jesus himself to me, to talk with me and answer my questions one at a time, before i understood it.
you dont say what community youre from and whether you have contact with annie or tristan. im sure they would both remember me. id like to send this to them if there is a way.
if you are in contact with annie, tell her she's right not to get hoodwinked by the Church Ladies and the Way Its Done Now.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 16:35:03 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: D.U.S.
Subject: thanks
Message:
any help you or anyone could give helping us find a way to get in touch with him would be most appreciated
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:35:30 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: post@rmi.net
To: Abi
Subject: I've got old DT w/ Denver Unity School article
Message:
I'll look it over and let you know.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:41:51 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: I've got old DT w/ Denver Unity School article
Message:
Postie,
brilliant! I really hope it sheds some light. And thanks so much.

Abi

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:14:06 (GMT)
From: D.U.S.
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Abi-do you have e-mail address for info? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 06:48:04 (GMT)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: D.U.S.
Subject: yes
Message:
I guess I'm slightly paranoid about EV but just realised that I've provided my e-mail address in the white pages anyhow.

abray@murdoch.edu.au

I need to know as much as possible about the Denver Unity School.
Any leads at all will be useful however insignificant they might seem.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 08:37:39 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: the teachers had to go to spring valley ny
Message:
to the rudolph steiner community called WELEDA to get some of their training.,. i was sent up to the spring valley premie center for some godforsaken months in the early part of 1974 and we hosted whatever teachers were doing their training at WELEDA. they especially studied steiners body exercises he called eurythmy. if i can remember any of the teachers' names i'll post them here for you.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:26:29 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Gift of Gratitude
Message:
I was talking to Janice Wilson today, and we are similar in that we are almost constantly overcome with gratitude and that just makes us so grateful. It is a wonder we are able to eat and go to the bathroom with all the gratitude for Maharaji that is bursting from out of our bosoms on a regular basis.

As Mitch Ditkoff says in his Perspective on the Elan Vital website, it's all about gratitude, which is a very underrated aspect in the hierarchy of emotions, or something like that. I don't understand it completely, but whatever he said must be true, or it wouldn't be on the Elan Vital website, which is always 100% true and correct, and does not contain lies. Lying is one of the numerous characteristics of a cult that Elan Vital lacks.

No, Mitch is being truthful when he says we should be grateful for being grateful and that's what Maharaji's gift of gratitude does for us. And Mitch Ditkoff knows what he is talking about because he works in a very synchronized company with that very clear saint Joan Apter. And I'm sure Joan would have said the same thing Mitch did, in her very synchronized Perspective, if she ever finished mentioning how screwed up she is, and we all are, and as Maharaji never stops reminding us.

When I am overcome with gratitude like this, I just start singing that song we often sing to Maharaji, which is just a statement of gratitude, and doesn't imply in the least that Maharaji is the incarnation of God, which Maharaji has never claimed to be, not even once. Only someone lacking in the gift of understanding would be so confused so as not to know that there is a huge difference between being the source of creation and God, there is just no comparison between the two things. I know Janice is singing it with me now:

I love you my Lord
Your grace is over-flowing
I love you my Lord
You are all knowing

You have given me life
Out of your mercy and compassion
I am so grateful
For the gift of devotion

You body it is golden
Your heart is endless love
Your grace is eternal
You are the source of creation

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:12:00 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: The sauce of creation
Message:
Now I understand. He never was god-in-a-bod. Someone just wrote it down wrong!
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 02:12:41 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: moldy warp
Subject: Rock Me And Roll Me And Say It's Alright
Message:
Unfortunately most words have more than one meaning.

Encarta 'rock' #4 of 10 definitions of verb:

4. transitive verb shock: to disturb, upset, or shock somebody (informal) The ruling rocked the legal profession.

Encarta 'roll' #31 & 32 of 32 definitions of verb:

31. transitive verb CRIMINOLOGY rob somebody: to take money or belongings from somebody who cannot offer any resistance (informal)

32. transitive and intransitive verb have sex: to have sexual intercourse or engage in sexual foreplay with somebody (informal) (offensive in some contexts)

And say it's alright

Easier said than done.

Steve

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 23:27:08 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: Rock Me And Roll Me And Say It's Alright
Message:
Most definitely so - easier said than done!
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:08:20 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Steve Quint
Subject: True. He rocked us,rolled us,now says its allright
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:09:20 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Read Michael Dettmers post below
Message:
There are so many incredible posts right now and great threads but this one needs to get archived with Michael's other posts. I know I don't have time to read all the posts lately I don't think anyone would want to miss this one.


Been There,
The information provided by Kathy Sullivan is substantially correct. The therapist’s name is Dr. Irene Kassorla. Maharaji and Marolyn began therapy sessions with her in the later part of 1984 and continued for about six to eight months thereafter to help resolve their marriage difficulties. It is not true that Maharaji shut down and wouldn't go back after a couple of sessions.

At the time, Dr. Kassorla, who lived and worked out of her palatial home in Bel Aire, California, was known as the “therapist to the stars.” She is the author of several books including Nice Girls Do, Putting It All Together, and Go For It: How To Win at Love, Work and Play. She also hosted a call-in talk show on CNN for a while.

I don’t recall if Marolyn attended their first session “dripping in diamonds” but your report that, “they never told the therapist what M. did” requires clarification. It is true that they never told her who Maharaji was or what he did. That task was left to me, since I was the person who suggested that they seek therapy in the first place, and I was also a key participant in the selection process. Because Maharaji had publicly bad-mouthed therapy for years, and because he was a public figure, I wanted someone who had an established reputation for protecting the identities of her famous Hollywood clients.

At the beginning, they had one-hour sessions every week for about two-months. After that, their sessions tapered off to about once a month and towards the end, they consulted with her on an “as need” basis. During the first month, I met with Dr. Kassorla after each session to answer questions. It was clear that she had never worked with a guru and his wife before, and she had many questions concerning the nature of his work, his teachings, his philosophy, the culture of worship and deference that surrounded him, and questions about Marolyn becoming Durga Ji, his devotee as well as his wife when they were married. She obviously considered this information to be very relevant to their current marriage difficulties. As a professional, she never discussed with me what took place in her sessions with them. My role was to provide her with whatever specific and/or contextual information she required.

Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 21:31:15 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Some Answers
Message:
Some of you have asked questions about Maharaji and Marolyn’s therapy sessions with Dr. Irene Kassorla. I am unable to answer any questions about what took place during the sessions, as I was not present at any of them, nor did Maharaji or Marolyn or Dr. Kassorla ever discuss any of the details with me. With that proviso, I will do my best to answer your questions.

First, let me establish the context which led Maharaji and Marolyn to seek the help of a therapist. During the summer of 1984, Maharaji and Marolyn encountered a severe “bump in the road” in their marriage. During that time, Maharaji became aware of a rumor that Marolyn was having an affair with one of the premies doing full-time service at the Malibu residence. It is my belief that the rumor was true, although I have no absolute proof of that fact. I know that Maharaji believed it was true because I witnessed his incredible anger as well as his genuine sadness over this matter.

During this period, Maharaji and I became close, almost as friends. He was very vulnerable and it showed in his manner and behavior. He was far less arrogant than he often appeared to be, and his mood was very subdued. I remember during August he held an impromptu program in Miami. I had never seen him so humble and unassuming about himself and how he spoke about knowledge. Many people commented to me after the program about how touched they were and how different this program seemed from the others. No one knew the circumstances behind Maharaji’s shift in tone, but most attendees experienced it, including me.

After the program, Maharaji and I flew to an exclusive resort called The Greenbriar nestled in the Blue Ridge Mountains of West Virginia. There, the two of us spent three days. We wandered the beautiful grounds and went for long drives along the back roads. As angry and hurt as he was at Marolyn, he made it clear that he had no intention or desire of getting a divorce, for reasons I have already discussed. In one of these conversations I suggested that he and Marolyn seek counseling. I offered the opinion that someone with expert knowledge and experiencing in these matters might be helpful, in much the same way that the team of outside advisors I assembled had been helpful in restructuring his organization and personal affairs after the potential debacle we faced with the IRS in 1976. Despite his misgivings about therapists, my argument persuaded him to consider the possibility.

Before Maharaji finally agreed to meet with Dr. Kassorla, I had lengthy conversations with him explaining that any therapist worth his or her salt would need to have a thorough understanding of who he is. I specifically suggested that the issue of Marolyn as Durga Ji, his devotee, as well as his wife would definitely be a topic of considerable discussion, given their current difficulties. Maharaji agreed and indicated that he would feel more comfortable if I were the person who explained all of this to Dr. Kassorla.

Consequently, when I met with Dr. Kassorla, I explained how things were when Maharaji first came to the West, but explained that he had made great progress in his efforts to shed the Indian trappings and rituals that were exported from India. Based on some very personal and intimate conversations I shared with Maharaji during that period, I was convinced that he was ready to step down off the throne and begin a process of genuine dialogue with premies and non-premies alike. I envisioned that he would openly address these issues with all of the premies and take responsibility for the consequences his decisions had produced. I believed that it was not necessary for him to present himself as anything other than a human being, albeit a very evolved human being, who had something important to say about the meaning and purpose of live. Although the changes I had envisioned had not yet taken place, I spoke to Dr. Kassorla with a confidence and conviction as if they had. From my perspective, Dr. Kassorla had the potential, not only to help Maharaji and Marolyn with their marriage difficulties but, in doing so, to help him let go of his old identity and fully embrace his humanity. In essence, I had come full circle to where I was in 1976, before Maharaji put an end to the organizational changes, and ushered in a new era of devotion. Right or wrong, this is my response to Jerry who asked, “How did you reconcile recommending that M see a shrink to the power of Knowledge?”

From my perspective, the therapy seemed to be working. Although I wasn’t privy to any of the details, Maharaji and Marolyn attended all of the sessions, and he spoke very positively about Dr. Kassorla. Once Maharaji and Marolyn appeared to be getting their marriage back together, I felt it was time to extend this process into his organization. Maharaji’s positive experience with Dr. Kassorla made him receptive to my suggestion that we conduct a two-day conference at San Yisidro with organizational consultant Will Schutz. It was during that conference that the proverbial shit hit the fan. It’s was as if Dr. Kassorla had been playing softball, and then in came Will and suddenly the game changed to hardball. Maharaji freaked.

Without repeating all of what I have said before, Will and his associate told him that if he didn’t take to heart the enormous responsibility that comes with engendering such love and commitment, he could become very scary and dangerous. He also told Maharaji that, of all the groups he had facilitated, he had never experienced as much fear as was exhibited by our group. He added that, in his opinion, Maharaji had received too much, too soon and that he really had to start practicing what he preached. Finally, Will alerted Maharaji to the dangers of having so many people so dependent upon him. Maharaji was very confronted by these comments. He felt attacked and betrayed when Will’s comments were echoed by some of the conference participants, and so he withdrew into himself even though he remained physically present.

As I look back, the San Yisidro conference was a major turning point. I had hoped that the conference would help Maharaji extend his humanity throughout his organization and positively impact his approach to his mission. The exact opposite occurred. He reacted in much the same way he did when Bob Mishler confronted him in 1976. Rather than let the process settle for a couple of weeks as Will suggested, Maharaji cancelled the follow-up meeting and immediately fired two of the conference participants. He was as arrogant as before and he became imbued with cynicism. He continued to abuse alcohol and he began his sexual exploitation of his female devotees.

Bin Liner asked why I “didn't you walk when (I) realized Rawat was a fake?” Ultimately I did walk. But despite my disappointment, I genuinely loved him and I found it difficult to accept what I increasingly could not deny.

Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 22:04:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: So it WAS your fault after all, MR. Dettmers!!
Message:
As I look back, the San Yisidro conference was a major turning point. I had hoped that the conference would help Maharaji extend his humanity throughout his organization and positively impact his approach to his mission. The exact opposite occurred.

God, man! Just when we almost got back our fledgling Humanitarian Leader you had to scare him away. No wonder no one likes you.

No, really, Mike, I was about to post something to the effect of 'Yet another excellent, important and eye-opening post' but that get's a little old after a while, doesn't it?

Thanks for all this, Mike.

But who do you think 'Sezyou' is? It's okay to guess. Guessing's cool.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 04:11:49 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sezyou is probably Keith nt
Message:
weell guessing is aloud.
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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 00:48:48 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Some answers indeed. Wow.
Message:
Your post about Maharaji seeking Dr. Kassorla's help and based on results in those sessions, the missed opportunity at San Ysidro, is frankly touching. A wave of sadness passed over me as I read your account. For a moment I almost thought he believed he was human. That missed opportunity for Maharaji, the future of his work and us as supporters of the work is tragic. Even at that point, if he'd stepped down to this level and layed his cards on the table, the wounding would have stopped and this forum wouldn't be here. Big if. Too damn bad.

And Michael, thanks for trying to guide Maharaji in the direction he needed to go - for his sake and ours.

Postie

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:44:48 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: I echo that postie
Message:
Thie idea that either in 76 or 84 or ( now?) Rawat could honestly face his life and impact on people is a fascinating one. It is the premise of the MRC letter, that this would be the simgle most healing thing that could ever happen in the history of the Maharaji cult.

I think he is a sociopath, or a narcissist, ( Nigel help me here with the Dx ) anyway, I don't think he has the soul to do it.....but what an amazing idea.

Thanks Michael, for your post. I really think you have had one really interesting life. I urge you again to spend not just time writing here about it, but putting it into book our memoir form. How many people have tried to explain what you did to Dr. K ? It is such an inherently fascinating subject, you bringing the boy god for marraige counseling, and trying to explain to an outsider the culture of DLM?EV. What I would not give to have been a fly on the wall, either at your explanation to Dr. K or the sessions themselves. Frankly, if I had to p[ick which I would rather have a transcript of it is what you told her, not the marraige counseling. Boy, she must have taken some intersting notes!

So glad you are sharing this with us, thanks again Michael. It really is too bad that Mr. Rawat had to run from his humanity, if he had faced facts it really would have been an amazing transformation.

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Date: Mon, Mar 05, 2001 at 02:48:32 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: all
Subject: sorry for all the errors/typos (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:44:13 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Michael:Can you talk more?If so, I have ?'s...
Message:
Michael-

Are you able to share more with us about this period of counseling in m's life?

Having a background in psychology and counseling, I am of course interested in m's take on all this, and how he might have responded and/or been affected by all this.

I remember talking once with John Horton about m's simplistic and antagonistic view of psychology and therapy, and he told me a little bit about m's 'attitiude' and take on it....

If you are comfortable talking about it, I have some questions I would like to ask....

Thanks,
La-ex

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:48:07 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: la-ex
Subject: Michael:Can you talk more?If so, I have ?'s...
Message:
la-ex,

Ask me your questions and I'll respond if I can.

Michael

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 03:18:47 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: I've got a question
Message:
Michael,

How did you reconcile recommending that M see a shrink to the power of Knowledge? I just don't see how somebody who believes that somebody else is the living embodiment of perfect being could recommend he see a psychiatrist to help him with anything, let alone his marriage. Unless, of course, you didn't think Maharaji was that. Who did you think he was? Didn't you believe Knowledge could cure anything?

Seriously, if Maharaji was master of Knowledge, shouldn't he have been beyond normal human tribulations such as a troubled marriage? All he had to do was go within, and voila, perfect peace and happiness. Who could ever rob him of that, this master of perfection? What mere human travail could bring him down? He had it all right within him, and he was it's master! At least, that's what he always claimed.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:30:54 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: Here's a question ..
Message:
....why didn't you walk when you'd realised Rawat was a fake?

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 00:58:14 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: To Michael:Can you talk more?If so, I have ?'s...
Message:
I have a question? What sort of info did you give the Dr? Did you get a sense of what M and Marilyn were talking about from what the Dr. asked you? I'm quite mind-boggled by this revelation about the Lord in therapy!.Thanks (in advance) moldy warp
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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:49:05 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: What Maharaji has to put up with is criminal
Message:
It was clear that she had never worked with a guru and his wife before

See, this is the kind of thing Maharaji has to put up with, his life is so hard. First, he lives in a delapidated house, and he had to marry somebody who sometimes lacks that understanding, that whatever Maharaji does, even if he slaps her around, is drunk all the time, sleeps with many other women even though he has a microscopic penis, takes drugs, and commits vehicular homicide, it's just lila, grace and perfection. And Maharaji is just so humble and loving and he even agreed to lower himself to the level of common mortals and go to marriage counseling. That's just so sad, but he is just so wonderful, and synchronized to do that. I am so inspired and feeling such gratitude to Maharaji, that I want to do participation and send him cash right now.

And on top of THAT, Maharaji has to deal with a therapist who has no experience in working with a Guru and his wife. I mean there must be lots of them around who have that experience, if not THAT experience, but he had to get somebody who didn't. His life is just too hard.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:33:00 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: all
Subject: for a good laugh or cry depending on your mood
Message:
If any of you watch the Sopranos.........

I just started laughing hysterically when I stuck my image of Rawat in Tony Soprano's therapy chair.

For those who don't get HBO, this is a really great show about a mobster and his family. The mobster goes to therapy. And it is sort of the same thing that is making me laugh right now.

In one episode Tony and his underlings had to kill one of his underlings 'Pussy' because he was informing on them. The whole show was great. But the part that I am recalling is when the therapist said ' I sense saddness in you' and Tony just isn't going to tell her about killing his long time friend who was ratting on him. Instead he tells the therapist he had a dream about screwing her.....

Anyway, what does this have to do with Rawat...

I just keep laughing at the idea of trying to do therapy when your client is supposedly the omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent ( lets not forget omnivorous ) Lord of the Universe. Michael, FOR GOD SAKE, how DID you explain this to the shrink!!!!!

Well, she's his wife, but um, she is also his devotee. You see Dr. K, I know he just looks like a creepy little guy, but he has thousands of people line up to kiss his feet four or five times a year. They sing a song ' my lord is the superior power in person '. Every once in a while he sticks his toes in some water and it is sent around a charnamit ( holy water ). People consider eating the other half of a bagel he has chewed on to be 'prasad' and holy food. ( Dr. K...I get to have DOOBIES left over from the LOrd! super prasad!!!) Anyway Dr. K, Marolyn may be having a little trouble with this dual role of wife and devotee thing. You see, she is supposed to believe not a leaf moves without his grace, and she listens to his satsangs and gives them herself. But, she knows they are well, sort of hiding a lot of things from the flock'

What did you really say Michael? I know it was 84 and probably charnamit and prasad were verboten topics, but MORE details. This is too freaky for words!

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Date: Sun, Mar 04, 2001 at 20:51:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: for a good laugh or cry depending on your mood
Message:
Remember the part where he stumbled upon one of his lieutenants seeing a dentist in the same office complex, right across the hall, in fact? Picture the astonishmnet on Maharaji's face if he came across one of his PAMs doing the same thing.

'Quick, Marolyn, duck inot this boutique shop!'
'Whaa...?'
'That guy over there, coming out of the dentist; I don't want him to know what I'm doing here!'
'Why not?'
'Just this morning I was giving him satsang about how foolish he is to get caught up his marriage woes when he has the opportunity to serve the Perfect Master of the age!'

Yeah, I'd say Maharaji's a hypocrite, alright. And like a few people here want to know, what could have possibly been going through Michael's mind when he recommended it?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 22:08:38 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: The Sopranos
Message:
Yes I just love it when TOny Soprano talks to his therapist. Lorraine Bracco is perfect. Or even more hysterical was when their son had his first communion and was having an existentialist crisis and one of his parents said: 'Can't you be a fucking Catholic for 10 minutes???'

That show is brilliant.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:22:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Beyond Brilliant
Message:
I actually got HBO just to watch that show and it is worth every penny and them some. The writers on that show are extremely talented.
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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 01:54:13 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Beyond Brilliant
Message:
I'm toying with the idea of doing the same. I confess I have only watched the show three times all while vacationing.

The writing really is brilliant. It's refreshing to see something so original on TV. It's astonishing really.

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Date: Sat, Mar 03, 2001 at 03:18:15 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Helen, Joe, Susan
Subject: Another Soprano addict
Message:
Seeing Tony Soprano, the head of the mob, in therapy is a hilarious idea and freaking brilliant. You love the guy and hate the guy but you can relate because he's human. The show is extremely well written, directed and acted. And art directed and photographed. I had the same thought Susan, what if that was Maharaji sneaking off to see his therapist in between 'events'. What would those sessions be like.

I hope Michael D. can shed a bit more light on this.

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:16:46 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Marrying a devotee
Message:
Having been a couple's counsellor myself for many years, I would think that their therapist would have some questions about the rank differential in their relationship! Jeez!

Rank is a very interesting topic. It can be like a drug, and also a medicine. It is very often abused, but is not inherently corrupt. For example, a better tennis player has higher rank than a lousy one. In the tennis world, he/she is accorded more privileges, as though closer to God almost, than the bad player. If the rank is based on something real, it can be very helpful. You can teach or model good tennis to someone. But very often it's used as a power tool. MJ's rank is based on false premises, not skill or capacity or inherent anything.

I cannot imagine the mindfuck of being married to someone who is your Lord, and with whom you are also trying to have a human relationship in which your needs matter as much as his. Of course, in much of the world, this is still the pattern in marriages. But to have such a relationship in the middle of California, when she is going to school and learning about psychology and all this stuff. How does she do it?

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 21:28:16 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Michael, others
Subject: Dr. Casserola
Message:
Sorry for the bastardization, but wasn't she also the shrink for Nicole Simpson, who gave up lots of privileged information about their therapeutic relationship? She seemed like a media hog to me.

Part of why I hate LA.

If I am wrong, please do correct me.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Mar 02, 2001 at 23:04:34 (GMT)
From: Dr. Kasserola
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: You are wrong
Message:
Marianne,

For your information, I am a licensed professional in the state of Beverly Hills and I am not a media hog, nor am I a hog of any type. And I don't give up lots of priveleged information, no way. Nicole Simpson blabbed that all around herself.

Like I would never say publicly that Durga Ji, Ms. Rawat, was upset because Guru Maharaji Ji, was a short, fat, megalomaniac with a microscopic penis. Or that she was upset because she didn't have enough diamonds, or affection, and that Mr. Rawat was unfair in being upset that she was having sex with her hunky 28-year-old driver, if Mr. Rawat was having sex with all his female devotees from as far away as San Jaun Capistrano, or perhaps even Santa Barbara. No, I have not revealed that publicly and have referred to it in my books only by using the initials 'Guru MJ' and 'M aka DJ.'

Dr. Kasserola
Marriage counselor to the stars and the Incarnation of God

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Date: Tues, Mar 06, 2001 at 01:33:33 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Dr. Kasserola
Subject: or is it Dr. Casserole? (like macaroni w cheese)nt
Message:
nt
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