Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 16:34:45 (GMT)
From: Feb 09, 2001 To: Feb 20, 2001 Page: 3 Of: 5


JTF -:- Millennium/Astrodome vs. Kissimmee I and II -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 14:03:43 (GMT)
__ CD -:- Millennium/Astrodome -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:08:27 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Yes -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 18:32:52 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- Yes/interesting -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 19:27:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian S -:- Yes/interesting/ Also another point in time -:- Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 02:05:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- 3-legged stool: Practice, Participate and Progress -:- Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 03:15:38 (GMT)

Aussi Ji -:- Check this out!Amaroo mrans... -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:12:53 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Check this out!Amaroo mrans... -:- Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 05:31:41 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Another registration. Total now 8. -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 14:50:34 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- It's an anagram of 'Oo - Rama!' (nt) -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 12:52:12 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- Woops,that should be Amaroo means -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:14:34 (GMT)

Bazza -:- 'Lifestyles of the gurus' -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 05:54:31 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Dowton's pro-knowledge conclusions.. -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 17:04:10 (GMT)
__ Michael Dettmers -:- 'Lifestyles of the gurus' -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 14:43:48 (GMT)
__ __ lmk -:- 'Lifestyles of the gurus' -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 22:27:35 (GMT)
__ Bongo -:- Premies have a stake in keeping M rich. -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 11:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Price = 'value' for the customer... -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 16:17:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bongo -:- Guru and customers -:- Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 00:25:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Excellent analysis, Bongo... -:- Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 21:34:28 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Bibliography pages updated, thanks Baz -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:09:11 (GMT)
__ Jethro -:- 'Lifestyles of the gurus' -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:06:02 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- no comment -- just keep it coming! n/t -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 06:56:24 (GMT)

Bazza -:- 'Houston, We have a Problem' -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 04:52:53 (GMT)
__ bill -:- That is me in the aspirant section..nt -:- Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 02:59:38 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- I have Marianne's copy of this -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 18:38:29 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Where's the article coming from? -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 08:17:35 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Lack of coffee, sorry -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:10:39 (GMT)

Bazza -:- 'Go to Hell' -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 04:26:00 (GMT)
__ Ralph -:- This can be dangerous -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 12:41:53 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- I could be wrong but I disagree -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 13:59:25 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- 'Go to Hell' -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 04:32:11 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Downton, and hallowe'en? -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 05:02:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Ahhhhhhhh...... for ME? You shouldn't have -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 16:40:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Methinks the lady doth protest too much -:- Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 01:54:37 (GMT)

G -:- 'Rapid Communication System' -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:09:26 (GMT)
__ salam -:- 'Rapid Communication System' -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 02:01:42 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Notice how you can never just call them? (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:15:20 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Real communication not allowed -:- Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 02:01:31 (GMT)

Way -:- Satpal update -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:07:30 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- His FAQ is a perfect precis of our old dogma -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:56:26 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- Maybe Rawat ditched that stuff.... -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 21:07:40 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Everything I Need To Refute This Guy I Learnt In -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:04:02 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Do you remember maharaji telling us.. -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:42:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Kinda -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 16:28:39 (GMT)

14 objections -:- new objections letter being mailed -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:00:52 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- suggestion for change -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:28:13 (GMT)

WMary -:- I have some info. from a friend... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:56:59 (GMT)
__ cq -:- worried about the drinking water? Or was it the -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:24:02 (GMT)
__ Know It All -:- Anyone know about this stuff? -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:15:24 (GMT)
__ __ The Authorities -:- Anyone know about this stuff? -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 09:07:21 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- i will take a look -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:56:36 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- I wonder if they actually meet legal requirements -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:51:44 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- if the registration flops, no worries. no show. -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 08:10:55 (GMT)

salam -:- Hello, look at this. -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 13:46:53 (GMT)
__ salam -:- also check out the smart card form -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 14:48:33 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Catch this in the Smart Card FAQ's -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:28:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- also -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:11:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Geez Salam, I hope not -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:25:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Geez Salam, I hope not -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 17:19:37 (GMT)

Charlie -:- Special offer on White Page listings -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 11:52:25 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Special offer on White Page listings -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:32:03 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- Hi di hi, John -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:49:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Hi di ho, Charlie -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:57:30 (GMT)

Salam -:- Re: Amaroo Registration. -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 04:49:28 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Love your website -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 07:04:52 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Suggestion To Serve Our Lard -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 23:26:12 (GMT)
__ sivan -:- nice touch, Salam! nt -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 09:40:22 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- I lost your e-mail. Please e-mail me. -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 13:57:35 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- In the independent republic of San Francisco -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 08:00:19 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- The currency in Latvia.... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:10:57 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Just curious about how many ex-premies -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:12:31 (GMT)
__ TED Farkel-I AM everyman, -:- er, every premie,er...Alabama, USA(God's country)n -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 00:49:51 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- The trunk of my car -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 22:05:24 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- California: Bay Area - Camarillo commuter (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:39:49 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- USA (No. California) (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:07:18 (GMT)
__ G -:- USA (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:39:06 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- Central Coast of California (nt) USA -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 17:59:27 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- IHQ! (Denver; USA) nt -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:01:35 (GMT)
__ Rick -:- USA (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 14:49:03 (GMT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- From the USA but living in Panamá (NT) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 14:16:03 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Independent State of Amaroo (ISA). -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 13:54:39 (GMT)
__ Charlie -:- curious about how many ex-premies -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ Roy -:- un americun /nt -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 02:14:14 (GMT)
__ Tim G -:- I'm supposed to be Irish nt -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:08:23 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- I'm Caesarian. -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:03:16 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- Premature Evacuator? nt -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:51:38 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- and I'm under section (no, honest, no more) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:13:18 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- I am an aussie..uh der.(NT) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:47:42 (GMT)
__ Sivan/Sam -:- I,m an oz, Pat -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:00:38 (GMT)
__ janet -:- people's republic of santa monica--usa--nt -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 09:42:12 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Brian Smith /USA (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 09:16:33 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Columbia (British) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 08:58:12 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- USA nt -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 08:52:58 (GMT)
__ Loaf -:- uk (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 07:51:03 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- USA n/t -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:21:32 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- UK nt -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:59:20 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- UK NT -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:22:36 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Just curious about how many ex-premies -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:20:49 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Independent republic of San Francisco/nt -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 07:19:17 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Oh, welcome back Sir Dave! NT -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:44:12 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- USA - NT -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:14:20 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- USA - NT -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:30:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- 'that place' - NT -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:51:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- USA-East Coast nt -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:50:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Suzanne -:- USA NT -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:24:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Gonzoland (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 22:17:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- under a foot of snow -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:21:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Poll Results -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 09:36:02 (GMT)

cq -:- awwww ... it ain't no fun anymore. -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:58:08 (GMT)
__ SB -:- What a REPETITIVE garbage! -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:06:57 (GMT)
__ __ Barry -:- What a REPETITIVE garbage! -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:59:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Correct: MAHARAJI IS A PIMP!! -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:20:36 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Maharaji: ''Blaa, blaa...blaa...blaa...blaa...blaa -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:00:26 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- the biggest reset button in the universe -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:09:10 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- biggest reset button -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:31:13 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Ha! I do that on a daily basis ... er, oops. (nt) -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:19:11 (GMT)
__ cq -:- good grief - there's more. M's message for today: -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:07:35 (GMT)
__ __ bill-typical eastern bs -:- burden-you MUST find some other world inside..nt -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:29:50 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- First he says he can show you ... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:30:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian smith -:- First he says he can show you ... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:35:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Suzanne -:- First he says he can show you ... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:38:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- First he says he can show you ... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 02:51:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Is God an asshole? -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:02:35 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- I was still a cult member at the time.... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:54:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- It's all about priorities, isn't it? -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:48:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Moldy Warp -:- non compliant cult member and rotting veg garbage -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:02:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Moldy Vegetable -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:17:40 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- This feeling, this understanding, this drivel -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:18:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian Smith -:- This feeling, this understanding, this drivel -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Kelly -:- He who laughs last laughs longest nt -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- But have you noticed that, as a 'non-religion' - -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:21:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- But have you noticed that, as a 'non-religion' - -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:29:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- 'but by my Master's mercy...' now what is this? -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:06:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ moldy warp -:- But have you noticed that, as a 'non-religion' - -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:05:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- No, a typo, but you are quick Warp Speed NT -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:47:46 (GMT)

jondon -:- Life 102: What to do when your Guru screws you -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 17:38:29 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- oops! What do you do when your Guru SUES you -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:30:38 (GMT)

downunder -:- amaroo -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 09:45:38 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- amaroo -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 12:49:39 (GMT)
__ salam -:- amaroo -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 10:11:06 (GMT)

Bazza -:- Yup, propogation is REALLY humming along -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 03:30:51 (GMT)
__ SB -:- How mentally old is this person???? WHOW! -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 05:55:58 (GMT)
__ __ NW Mole -:- This Just in: 'NEW INITIATIVES AND DISCUSSION' -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 06:05:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Well -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 06:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I hope you will attend -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 11:40:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Good questions Marianne - here's some more -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 19:18:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- He smokes Marlboro -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:09:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Malibu Mole -:- He smokes Dunhill Blue (Box) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:42:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- LOL That is funny! (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:22:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- ah nice to see you Malibu Mole -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- I hate Marlboro -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 14:56:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I like Winston, more natural -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:23:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- I don't know why am smoking -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:02:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Good questions Postie especially re secrecy -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:51:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- hilarious story (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:57:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Good questions Postie especially re secrecy -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:07:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Who is Celia? what is she? -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:39:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- That's hilarious Kelly -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:35:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Good questions Marianne - here's some more -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:29:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Excellent, Postie! -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 19:25:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Flea in Your Ear -:- An awkward question to as the instructor -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:50:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Questions -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:15:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Flea in Your Ear -:- The short answer to your Questions is -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:38:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- More Questions -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:32:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Flea in Your Ear -:- More Questions - you're insatiable! -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:06:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Think so? -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:18:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Flea in Your Ear -:- Don't you ever read Vogue? -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:31:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Well aren't we testy? -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:55:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Flea in Your Ear -:- No, I'm not gay but some of my best friends are -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 07:40:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Dear Flea.... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:18:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Thanks, Susan, you are my Valentine -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 18:25:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- Dear Flea.... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:33:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- However, in english ......... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:03:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- However, in english ......... -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:10:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- However, in english ......... -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:20:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael Dettmers -:- However, in english ......... -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:56:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- However, in english ......... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:24:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- DON'T PATRONIZE ME, PLEASE! -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:36:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- DON'T SHOUT, We can hear you (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 22:04:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You always do this, Kelly? -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:04:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- You always do this, Kelly? -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 15:51:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I've been itching to patronize you for a long time -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:06:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks Michael -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:37:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Flea in Your Ear -:- Dear Susan, I couldn't resist pulling Joe's leg NT -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 17:56:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Consider trying (nt) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:22:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Who the fuck you calling a token fag, bitch? -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:41:23 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 14:03:43 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Millennium/Astrodome vs. Kissimmee I and II
Message:
I just missed out on the fun?? @ the astrodome in'73-I was just becoming aware of this cult and hadn't realized YET giving up work to chase rawat was more important.

Question: I would estimate the attendance at the 2 Kissimmee events in 1978,79 to be in the + or - 20,000 range. Is this more or less the attendance in Houston also?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:08:27 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Millennium/Astrodome
Message:
The Millennium festival had a lot of stuff leading up to it.
It was the final event of a sequence including small marches in several cities. I remember walking from downtown LA to the Santa Monica pier. I think Blue Aquarius played in a couple cities.
It may have been when Maharaji got on the NBC nightly news.
And the time when the newscaster (?Frank Mcgee) misspoke his own name at the end of the newscast when signing off.
And the Merv Griffin show appearance.
Our premie house had a large truck painted with rainbows and fitted with small windows and 2 levels to fit in with the times.
It was pretty funny to see peaples expressions when the truck would show up at a gas station and 20 people would escape from the back.
I ended up sleeping at the truck during the event.
I volunteered and ended up helping the main guy who set up all the audio and video stuff (gofor and minor wiring). Turns out he was a producer on some national TV shows.

CD

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 18:32:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Yes
Message:
Actually, attendance at Millennium, to which the entire world was invited and it was free, was less than 20,000. If you were there, you would have seen acres of empty, blue seats. In the documentary 'The Lord of the Universe' they say that Divine Light Mission was claiming 40,000 members in the USA alone in 1973, but only 20,000 people total, showed up at the Astrodome, which was supposed to be an 'introductory' event, with lots and lots of non-premies in attendance. It didn't turn out that way. It also generated hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt.

Attendance at the Kissimee programs was probably more about 15,000 or maybe 17,000, but actually might have been somewhat less, maybe as little as 12,000. There was never a very good count, and many people only stayed for part of the event. I think the largest program in Miami Beach was about 10,000, maybe 12,000 at the most, around 1978.

Now, 20 years later, Maharaji brags that it was the 'largest event' when something like 8,000 (so he said, but it certainly didn't look like that many in the hall) showed up at an International Event four years ago in Long Beach.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 19:27:27 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes/interesting
Message:
So, going by these numbers, it seems as though that during the time the cult was still able to recruit 1973-1979, for every new person brought in-someone else woke up and left.

I noticed that there was quite a drop off in local attendance after both of the Kissimmee events. That's the point where I think recruitment stopped.

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Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 02:05:13 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Yes/interesting/ Also another point in time
Message:
When Maharaji numbers started really dropping off was about the time that he took away the opportunity for premies to give Satsang and personally propagate the knowledge. This occurred about 1984.

I guess the Lord did not consider many of us mortal souls capable of delivering his message with any degree of validity. This was of course after we were told repeatedly that the only way to true enlightenment was through 'Satsang Service and Meditation', the three legged stool theory.

Funny how I never questioned how the stool was supposed to balance better now on just two legs. Satsang was one of my favorite legs.

I suspect that there was more to the reason for yanking away the Satsang privledges, too many were getting too good at it and were catching on to what was happening, you can catch yourself up into a fine flow of JUJU (mystical magic) when you have an able tongue and a willing audience. There were many nights when I myself spun quite the inspired and exhilarating diatribe of devotional delusion.

At one time I was quite the salesman for the Chief, I think he cut off the limb that he was sitting on by alienating our efforts, minimumizing our involvement.

Don't get me wrong,
I am glad that he did, other wise I would still be ranting away in satsang, doing his dirty work, delivering up falsehoods to many unsuspecting people and friends.

Many folks that I now have to go back to and make amends for my actions.

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Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 03:15:38 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: 3-legged stool: Practice, Participate and Progress
Message:
When I went back last year after a 17 year break I was soooo thrilled to find that the satsang leg had been replaced with ''progress.''

I don't know what it means but it sounds so - er- progressive.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:12:53 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Check this out!Amaroo mrans...
Message:
G,Day All,

Someone asked the other day what Amaroo meant.No it doesn't come from the union of amar (m,s son) and a kangaroo.A very clever thought though.It is ironic but it mrans 'Journeys end'. how apt is that!
Cheers Aussi Ji who is working on saying smart things like Pat

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Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 05:31:41 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Check this out!Amaroo mrans...
Message:
Dear AJ,
How apropos! They probably named it that thinking it would be the be all, end all, for all premies but I think/hope it is the last ditch effort to save the whole business, cult, god thing and it won't work...it will end there! :) HA! Not that you didn't already think of that.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 14:50:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Another registration. Total now 8.
Message:
Hi Aussi Ji,

My deep moles in Ozcultworld have informed me that another person has registered for the programme, bringing the total so far to 8.

Maybe this is the start of the last minute rush.

At least they'll get seats near the front and a choice of bunks in the tent barracks.

Anth the upside down statistician.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 12:52:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: It's an anagram of 'Oo - Rama!' (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:14:34 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Woops,that should be Amaroo means
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 05:54:31 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Lifestyles of the gurus'
Message:
Extract from a chapter by this name, from the book:
'Sacred Journeys: The Conversion of Young Americans to Divine Light Mission', by James V. Downton Jr., Columbia University Press, 1979.

Many of the luxuries surrounding America's new gurus are gifts from their followers. Guru Maharaj Ji's not alone among the new gurus who are surrounded by material comforts. A casual glance at the lifestyles of other gurus in America does not turn up any signs of poverty. This raises an obvious question: Why is it that gurus insist on their followers becoming detached from the material world, while they seem to be completely immersed in it?

.....

Yet, while many people feel gurus have accumulated more than their share of wealth, their followers believe they are getting no more than they deserve. From the premie point of view, for instance, Guru Maharaj Ji's opulent lifestyle seems in harmony with their view of him as the Lord. They want him to live like the king they feel he is. Idealizing him as they do, they are more than happy to supply him with luxuries.

From this perspective, Guru Maharaj Ji's opulence can be understood as a natural outgrowth of his followers' need to idealize him and to set him at a sufficiently great distance so that beliefs in his extraordinary powers are preserved. In short, premies have a stake in maintaining his luxurious lifestyle.

.......

While we can partially explain Guru Maharaj Ji's lifestyle in terms of collective dynamics, another point of view would question why he has accepted the luxuries premies have gladly given to him. Several explanations could be offered: that he is following tradition; that he recognizes his followers' needs to elevate him to a point where he becomes the ideal to emulate; that he sees no conflict between his lifestyle and his spiritual mission; and that he is not attached to the comforts surrounding him. Of course, there is also the possibility that he is ambitious and materialistic, as so many people believe.

Reproduced for discussion purposes - any takers?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 17:04:10 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Bazza
Subject: Dowton's pro-knowledge conclusions..
Message:
We had a forum discussion about Dowton three (THREE?? - good grief) years ago. I don't know whether Mili's source is the same as yours, Baz, but Dr. Dowton was quite impressed by the premies he studied. (Looks to me like he just asked them 'so has Knowledge done you any good?' or somesuch.)

Anyway here's Jim's post about contacting Dowton, incuding the quote Mili provided.

Hi Guys, Back from a too-short vacation on the Yucatan. Beautiful place. I'm glad when I walked through the ruins of Tulum, Coba and Chicha Nitza (sp??) I wasn't preoccupied with the thought of Mayan 'Perfect Masters.' I just talked to the New Yorker. The article is no longer slated for any particular issue. It's not dead (yet) but.... well, what can you say? I was catching up on some of the dialogue I missed and noticed Mili's post about the endorsement Jim Dowton, an American sociologist, had given Maharaji back in the seventies: There is a book written by a Professor of Sociology ('Sacred Journeys' by Prof. Jim Downton) that analyses a group of premies in a five year period and he comes to the conclusion that 'There is little doubt in my mind that the lives of these premies have taken a positive turn since 1971. After five years, these premies seem less guilty, afraid, alienated, aimless, confused, introverted, frantic and worried; less repressed in communicating their weaknesses and emotions; less reliant on drugs; less counter to our society; more accepting of themselves and others (including non-premies); more peaceful, calm, confident, outgoing and positive; more willing to encounter and learn from their negative experiences, more appreciative of common, everyday events and more at one with others, nature, and life in general.' About half a year ago I tracked down Professor Dowton at some midwestern university (whose name I've forgotten). I left him a few messages and finally talked with him at home one weekend afternoon. I told him about my interest and views of Maharaji and asked him if he'd stayed informed. That he hasn't was not, in and of itself, so surprising. What was kind of odd, however, was his complete disinterest in this group he'd once written about. Dowton was polite enough. We talked for about half an hour, as I recall. He just doesn't give a damn about Maharaji and was not the least bit interested in how the man and his followers had evolved. At one point, I told him that his book was being used even now as an endorsement by premies. He didn't care. He wasn't the least surprised to hear that Maharaji has obscured his old claims to divinity (all the while flashing a little leg at those who remembered him in his prime). In that respect, he agreed that Maharaji was probably just another sixties fraud. Still, he feels no obligation to renew or publically cancel his old support of this cult. Frankly, I wasn't impressed. The main point, though, is that Dowton's comments about the peaceful herd of grazing premies are irrelvant to the current picture. The commune's been closed a long time now and the fact that our cult once got us off the street and off drugs matters not. I'd like to see someone write a book TODAY about the benefits of following a middle-aged sixties meglomaniac. But it sure won't be Dowtun.

And here's my own observations from the same thread:

Sociology is, IMHO, the weakest of the social sciences, and comprises methods of investigation that are frequently guaranteed to provide researchers with the answer they were looking for - or answer that their subjects were trying to project. If you make a special study of any group of people over a given period of time, and >they are aware you are making that study,< that knowledge of the ongoing investigation will tend to distort your findings. The ONLY way of carrying out objective long-term research into the benefits of practising Knowledge on reducing fear, alienation, aimlessness, confusion etc.) would comprise a 'double-blind' set-up using a matched control group of non-premies who were studied over the same time period and assessed on the same variables, ie., asked the same questions in interview or by questionnaire, or whatever. It would be crucial that (a) the researcher did NOT know which participants were premies and which were controls, and that (b) the participants didn't know that the research had anything to do with evaluating the practice of Knowledge. A pretty tall order, maybe, but unless this method was used (and I am sure it wouldn't have been), I don't think you can read too much into the results.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 14:43:48 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Bazza
Subject: 'Lifestyles of the gurus'
Message:
Bazza,

I had never heard of this book. Thanks for posting this extract. The author posits two possible explanations for Maharaji’s luxurious lifestyle. One “that he is following tradition; that he recognizes his followers' needs to elevate him to a point where he becomes the ideal to emulate; that he sees no conflict between his lifestyle and his spiritual mission; and that he is not attached to the comforts surrounding him. Or two “that he is ambitious and materialistic.”

I would argue that the evidence suggests that the later is the more grounded explanation. If Maharaji were really following tradition, I doubt that he would be an alcoholic, or would tolerate child molestation by one of his mahatmas, or would sexually exploit his female devotees, or would drive drunk, etc., etc.

When I was around Maharaji he was always talking about the next jet, or the next car, or the next watch he wanted, even as we were in the process of closing on the current jet or car. The tradition and myth is that he is a servant of god humbly accepting whatever his devotees chose to offer him. His behavior, however, reveals that he is a greedy, megalomaniac whose materialistic and corporal appetites know no boundaries. Think about that PWK’s before you make your next “gift” to your master or “donation” to his organization in the mistaken belief that you are simply “elevat(ing) him to a point where he becomes the ideal to emulate.”

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 22:27:35 (GMT)
From: lmk
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: 'Lifestyles of the gurus'
Message:
I seem to remember a 'joke' in our ashram in late 70's, that DLM was going to put up billboards all over with a picture of M getting out of a limo, with a caption reading, 'Did you expect him to ride in on a donkey?' or some such message. Funny how we deluded ourselves into not only accepting his opulent lifestyle but worked out ways of defending it to a 'non-enlightened' world. Now that I think about it, maybe it wasn't a joke after all...
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 11:28:07 (GMT)
From: Bongo
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Premies have a stake in keeping M rich.
Message:
I've just recieved an invitation to pay £125 to attend a local seminar on ' How to feel comfortable about talking about knowlege'. Its run by facillitators and is on video(sorry DVD).
I am vaguely assured that M.is behind it somewhere, and that they are sorry that they can only accomodate 100 people on this occasion.
Well Elan Vital, my reply to you, which I put on this site for the amusement of the world, and because sensible comment to you dissappears without trace-my reply to you is this-Bollocks you money grabbing bastards.
Bongo the usually easy going about these things.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 16:17:45 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: Price = 'value' for the customer...
Message:
Something that they teach in marketing, apparently, is you will lose custom by underpricing. If people see a seminar on 'How to feel comfortable about talking about Knowledge' (hey, snappy title! - you can tell these guys can communicate) and it was priced $5 they'd suspect it of being the crock of shite it surely is.

You will sell that many more widgets, crocks of shite, golden toilets, whatever, by giving them a 'quality goods' price rather than a bargain basement tag. (Up to a point, ie., what the punter can still afford.)

Hence the above nonsense, hence Amaroo, etc.

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Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 00:25:50 (GMT)
From: Bongo
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Guru and customers
Message:
Economic point taken Nigel. But I think there's an extra nasty dimension to this. As prems we bought into an indian guru system which relies completely on the live physical presence of a personal master-ideal for village life.(bless us) M., megalo-saggitarian-expansive-optimist that he is, simply attempted to ship the whole dynamic out West. Why not? Just apply jets, multi residences, technology etc, keep pumping it up. For years I ran from pillar to post to be with 'him' at festivals-and 'He' was there. The man was there, albeit only in stage persona, but the meditation/guru system held together.

Once the Guru starts peddling an image of himself, a likeness of the guru, as part of the guru/meditation dynamic, the system comes under pressure I think.

The problem is one of image of self, and image of guru. Under the influence of meditation the student's self-picture is shaken. He reaches out to the guru personally. Fine. But if the guru has retreated behind an image, pressure recoils on the student. His shaky self-image forces him/her to focus on what the guru has left behind-a mere ikon. The student knows it to be a likeness, and then the whole thing turns into a hall of mirrors. The wobbly student image is free to clothe the guru image in whatever local symbols demonstrate power, security and glory etc. needed to stabilize the whole panto. Today that means multi-national, pan-cultural, techno-super-rich-blah blah blah.(consensus rules) Not only is the vulnerable student image freed to maintain/create the gurus appearances, he probably feels utterly compelled to. In other words in the absence of a guru, you are warmly invited to build one and as impressive a one as possible please, and let the whole world see it.

I joined up on a personal-guru-only ticket back in 74. I weathered the vids. era because of much international guru chasing, and also because the content of the videos depicted 'festival' situations that I could relate to and had been present at.

Today's situation represents an abstraction I dislike, though I can see how it fits cosily into present psych-social trends. Personally I decline Maharaji's invitation to invest further in his vision of himself. Premies are making themselves vulnerable, by meditating as instructed, and staring at abstract images. I think Elan Vital are making capital out of this.

Elan Vital recently sent me a picture of M. and some blurb.
In among a flurry of rawatish enthusiasm are the words 'Bring on the master;you rest.' What a formula for disaster that now appears to me to be. That kind of rest I can do without.
Bongo

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Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 21:34:28 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Bongo
Subject: Excellent analysis, Bongo...
Message:
..apart from the implied slur on Sagittarians ;)

My own point was really just identifying an added 'business' dynamic which the guru exploits to the full to maximise personal revenue.

I think the reason fewer events now happen in down-at-heel, hired halls is not only the increased income from home satellite transmissions, but also the wish to avoid any cheap-and-trashy connotations.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:09:11 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Bibliography pages updated, thanks Baz
Message:
Sacred Journeys

Some more ? The whole book ? ....

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:06:02 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: 'Lifestyles of the gurus'
Message:
Even if someone took all of the above on board, it is stretching a bit when he has a toilet made of gold.
That toilet alone could have built several satsang halls in India for the poor and that would have furthered his spiritual mission.
I mean he could even have fed a few 1000 people...but I suppose that's not spiritual enough.

Prempal is ultimate 'spiritual' wanker.(Sorry but I don't have any other word to describe it.)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 06:56:24 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: no comment -- just keep it coming! n/t
Message:
rawrat
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 04:52:53 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Houston, We have a Problem'
Message:
From 'Sacred Journey's: The Conversion of Young Americans to Divine Light Mission' by James Downton, Columbia University Press 1979

'If we all jump up and wave our arms, maybe the spaceship will take off'

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Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 02:59:38 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: That is me in the aspirant section..nt
Message:
asdg
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 18:38:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: I have Marianne's copy of this
Message:
Marianne was nice enough to lend me a copy of that book, which I have not yet returned, but keeping safely for her. It's an interesting read about where the cult was in about 1979, and a history of the cult up to that period.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 08:17:35 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Where's the article coming from?
Message:
Newspaper? Do you have it?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 10:10:39 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Lack of coffee, sorry
Message:
I was not really awake I guess.

More of the comments on the Houston program?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 04:26:00 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Go to Hell'
Message:
Interesting book I'm reading at the moment, thought I'd share a few quotes (and pictures, later):

Book is 'Sacred Journeys: The Conversion of Young Americans to Divine Light Mission', by James V. Downton Jr., Columbia University Press, 1979.

It is a sociological study conducted over 5 years, from 1972 - 1977 and involved interviewing and following the progress (!) of 20 premies from the Boulder area. Although now out of print, you can still find copies online with used bookdealers, priced anywhere from $15 - $50.

Here is my first selection, concerning an young man referred to simply as 'Walt'

Walt felt so far from his spiritual goals, he was afraid. This sense of dread was nourished by Guru Maharaj Ji's satsang during the (birthday) party (ca 1973). 'I got really bummed out on his satsang. The only thing I heard him say was 'Those people who do not realize this Knowledge will go to hell and never return' That's the only phrase I remember and I was going 'Oh, no! I'm going to hell because I'm not realizing his Knowledge.'

His whole 'journey' is quite sad, yet at the same time very typical and relatable.

More to follow.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 12:41:53 (GMT)
From: Ralph
Email: ralph_smith68@hotmail.com
To: Bazza
Subject: This can be dangerous
Message:
In my view it is very dangerous re-writing Maharaji's heavy satsangs here about going to hell and vegetables etc because a lot of people who are impressionable will read such stuff and the whole nightmare can be triggered off again in them.

This stuff affects the subconscious mind and that is where the root of all the fear has grown. The reason why after so many years, people are still stuck in Maharaji's trap is because of the deep subconsious programming that has occured.

I should think that a warning of sorts, at the start of such posts would be helpful. Also, an alternative ex-premie and rational realistic view, given at the end of the post, explaining that such heavy statements by Maharaji are invalid would be helpful.

Even then, current premies caught in the trap are not going to be helped. So what can help them? Perhaps a statement to the effect that Maharaji doesn't preach this sort of heaviness anymore? I don't know.

One thing is certain. What to you might seem like nothing can have an adverse effect on someone else.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 13:59:25 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Ralph
Subject: I could be wrong but I disagree
Message:
Ralph,

I think the extreme damage Maharaji's heavy satsangs had on people's mental health was largely done long ago when some people committed suicide because they couldn't be devoted enough, or were thrown back into 'the world' when the ashrams closed.

Reminding people that Maharaji used to say such things is important to clarify the revisionism that's gone on in EV/DLM. Yes, the process of waking up from the cult dream is confronting, but stating clearly that Maharaji has no power to send us to hell, or turn our brain into rotten vegetables, is essential to break through the programming for those who still believe it could be true. I can't think of an alternative on a public internet forum.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 04:32:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: 'Go to Hell'
Message:
Way to go, Baz. As I mentioned the other day when we spoke, I contacted the Downton a couple of years ago and asked if he'd kept up on the cult at all. He hadn't and didn't express any interest in knowing what had come of it all since then. Frankly, I was disappointed and surprised he'd be so indifferent. Mind you, maybe I just caught him at a bad time.

Look forward to reading more when you get a chance.

By the way, Happy Hallowe'en!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 05:02:57 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Downton, and hallowe'en?
Message:
Skimming through the book (which arrived today) it's obvious Downton was investigating the cult with all the emotional detachment of a scientist dissecting a rat. He never received Knowledge himself and makes it clear in his preamble this is just a social study exercise on his part. Hey....maybe he's Stonor's Dad?:)

As for hallowe'en - oh dear Jim, you really DON'T have a clue do you?

Well allow me to give you a few:

YYYYYYYYYYYY

(may not work on all browsers)

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 16:40:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Ahhhhhhhh...... for ME? You shouldn't have
Message:
That is just SO nice, Baz. I think I'll give one or two (no more, trust me) to Laurie. We had a big fight last night and that should cover me, don't you think? See, we went out to dinner and I started getting a little pissed off that I'd gone to all this trouble to put together this pirate thing and she didn't even have a costume at all. Just chose to get all prettied up and everything. Well, fine then! But this was Hallowe'en. I don't know what she was thinking.

Anyway, no one else had costumes either and all the people in the restaurant were more interested in just talking with their table mates (not a single big party there last night!) than joining me in this cute pirate song I was trying to get everyone to sing. It sucked, quite frnakly. Worst Hallowe'en party I've evern been to. This town sucks, quite frankly. No one gets into the spirit of things.

Anyway, Laurie just got quieter and quieter. Finally, in desparation, trying to shake her out of this crazy funk she was falling into, I grabbed this long-stemmed rose from the table next to ours and pretended to sword-fight, pirate style with her a bit. She didn't laugh. Beleive me, she didn't laugh. I even tried to get her to 'walk the plank' but talk about poor sport!
Well, I don't blame her. It was the place. Hard to imagine anyone getting into the spirit of things there last night. Next year -- if we have to wait a full yera, that is -- I say we party somewhere else. Laurie says she just doesn't want to talk about it.

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Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 01:54:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Methinks the lady doth protest too much
Message:
That was a good chuckle, Jim, but I bet it wasn't like that at all.

We all know you really bought Laurie flowers, perfume and chocolates and maybe a little lingerie for after dinner dessert.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:09:26 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Rapid Communication System'
Message:
The following form is from the 'North American Communications Contact' for Elan Vital:

How Can We Contact You?

Some events with Maharaji may be announced on very short notice.
By providing the following information, you may receive current updates about live events with Maharaji and other information.

The best way to reach you in the shortest amount of time is by email.

You can subscribe at the Elan Vital website (elanvital.org under 'What's Happening') or on this form. If you choose the email option, we assume that you check your email frequently. Phone and fax communication will take longer. Regular mail is the slowest of all and is not an option for the Rapid Communication System.

Steve Rush
North American Communications Contact for Elan Vital
---------------------------------------------------------
This is my: ___ Original form ___ Updated form

What is the best way to try to reach you quickly? Choose one only.

___ Email (preferred) ___ Fax * ___ Phone

Please fill in your mailing address so we know that we have the most current information.

Name:_________________________________________________

Address:______________________________________________

City: ____________________________State__ __Zip:________

Phone Number: _______/_________/_______
Today's date: m___/d___/y____

Fax Number: _______/______ /_______ *
(for private fax only-cannot call first)

Email address:___________________________

Return or update this information in one of the following three ways:
1. Enter your information into the Elan Vital Subscription Mailbox at www.elanvital.org under 'What's Happening'
2. Fax this form to Elan Vital at 818-707-6382
3. Mail it to Elan Vital, P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, CA 90264-6130
It is your responsibility to keep your contact information updated. Enter updates into the Elan Vital Subscription Mailbox at www.elanvital.org under 'What's Happening', fax to 818-707-6382 or mail to: Elan Vital, P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, CA 90264-6130

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 02:01:42 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'Rapid Communication System'
Message:
Why do they want to implement such a system, I don't know? what is so bloody important about it? Looks to me all they doing is updating their database and working out the demographics of who lives where.

As for talking to them. You get more answers talking to a wall.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:15:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Notice how you can never just call them? (nt)
Message:
ggggggg
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Date: Fri, Feb 16, 2001 at 02:01:31 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Real communication not allowed
Message:
I don't recall ever hearing a real honest conversation between Rawat and a premie. The Q&A sessions were a farce, and the whole premise of them was that 'he knows' and 'you don't'. So asking a question was almost always an act of submission. Any challenging question was met with hostility and/or a put-down, or brushed off. And his so-called 'answers' were just more mind control bs. That goes for the 'mahatmas' (aka 'initiators' or 'instructors') also.

I remember asking an honest question and this 'mahatma' gave me a bunch of shit. I replied 'I was just asking a question.', he didn't know how to respond. He knew he was full of it. This was before I got more thoroughly brainwashed and moved in the ashram.

At an ashram meeting at Kissimmee, someone asked Rawat why ashram premies couldn't have sex (or get married or whatever) and yet he was married. Rawat said 'You're not Maharaji'. Not a real answer, but a coded command with an implied message. Hidden, implied meanings are often more powerful than spelled out meanings. It's harder to defend against them.

In another ashram meeting, a premie actually stood up to Rawat (somewhat) and asked about the ashram and initiator bullshit, something like that. Rawat blew up, didn't answer, and yelling, told this courageous person to leave (something like 'Go on, get out of here, and don't come back). You can bet that if he didn't, Rawat would have his guru goons ('security') physically force him out. Rawat later ordered that all recordings of it be erased.


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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:07:30 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Satpal update
Message:
I'm not sure how many people here are interested in Bubblegum Ji's new success, but the latest news on his website (Manav Dharam) is about his participation in the recent Kumba Mela celebration (sp?). He is all decked out like Rawat in Kissimmee. He was personally honored with a visit by Sonia Gandhi, the widow of the former premier Rajiv Gandhi, rather impressive. The costume makes him appear both foolish and menacing, in my opinion. (Maybe the Indians go for that). His oldest son, though, is a looker! I predict great gopi success for him.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:56:26 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: His FAQ is a perfect precis of our old dogma
Message:
Here's Satpal's FAQ which, I think, we should perhaps have around here somewhere (JM? You interested?). It's exactly the religious template Maharaji saddled us with and which he now takes no responsiblity for and, indeed, denies ever foisting upon us. But those of us that were there know otherwise. Meanwhile, as we know, it's absolutely impossible to understand eactly what parts, if any, of this dogma Maharaji now renounces. So it's all in there somewhere, as far as I can tell, one cold, rancid hindu bullshit soup:

How can we know what is the proper balance in our lives?
The more you meditate, the more balance you’ll have in life. A person who doesn’t meditate can’t understand that, but people who have done meditation understand that the more you meditate the more balance you get. You have worldly obligations, and you blend spirituality with them. You say, “I have to work this much for my living and this much action performed in the world will give me enough food and clothing, enough time for my spiritual practice.” I think that it is on the basis of the spiritual experience that you can balance yourself. It naturally happens. When you throw a log into the water it does not swim - it does not have the power to swim. It floats with the water. So in meditation you throw yourself into that stream of life, it picks you up and you can go with that.

How can we actually see and know God for sure?
We have to break these three dimensions, because man is a three-dimensional being. If you go past these dimensions, then you can see. That is why the scriptures talk about being above, overcoming the sensory organs, mind and intellect. If you pass beyond them, if you overcome them, you can see God as God is. Otherwise, you’ll be perceiving God either with your intellect or with your mind, and trying to make God something which God is not. That is why the scriptures say that people have to go beyond mind and intellect, they have to transcend all the working organs and sensory organs (karmindriya and gyanindirya). Cross over them, jump over them and then experience God as God is. Otherwise, the experience of God will not be pure, it will be diluted.

How does a person overcome weakness?

Any weakness which a person has basically comes from the weakness of his mind. For example, if your stomach is not functioning properly, your body will get sick. In the same way, if your mind is not concentrated, if your mind is not getting the proper spiritual food, there will be weaknesses. So, directly and indirectly, when a person meditates, the meditation itself will removes all the weaknesses that he sees through introspection. Through Knowledge, one is contented in himself. Through meditation, all the desired results are achieved.

For example, I am sitting in a car. Even though my vision, my power to see, is perfectly normal, if there is dust on the windscreen I cannot see properly. So what I do is, get out of the car, clean the windshield and then I can see properly. Likewise, right before a meditator are all his karmas on the windscreen. The karmas are simply there, clouding his vision. “Simply by shooting an arrow into the sky I can tie the sky into one bundle, but I cannot control this mind”, said Arjuna. His karmas were right there before him. That is why patience is necessary.

If you have perfect concentration, you’ll have a perfect experience. If your concentration is lacking, you’ll have a different experience. It depends on your efforts. One day your effort is there and you have complete concentration. You put all your efforts there and you can concentrate. Effort itself is karma.

Is your effort determined by previous karmas?

Yes, by previous karmas and karmas which are present now. Listening to satsang is a karma. Now, if you are encouraged spiritually, if you get satsang, if you get your doubts removed, and you sit in meditation, apply all your energy and your mind becomes concentrated, then you’ll have a good experience. But see, meditation should be for the sake of meditation alone. Good experience comes when you don’t want anything. When you go above your wants, then you can have a good experience.

Isn’t having a family, living a good life and trying to be a good person what life is all about?

Having a family, having a social life, having a job, having an education, all that adds up to a human life. But what is human life for? Ultimately, the answer is that it is for achieving total satisfaction.

Take for example, the process of induction. Induction means, if we have a north pole, then automatically a south pole will be existing. If we have a south pole, then automatically we will have a north pole. That’s logic. In the same way, have a coil of wire, and if we pass electricity through that, then it becomes a transformer, it’s induced to a higher or a lower potential. In the same way, because we are south poles, we are automatically looking for a north pole. It has to be somewhere, and that north pole becomes the unknown factor, like a mysterious or mystical experience. So being in the physical world, we automatically project spirituality and recycle that, just as in a magnet the polarity, the magnetic force, oscillates from north pole to south pole and then back again. So we want to complete that cycle. That’s why we seek harmony between materialism and spirituality. Everyone wants mental peace and to be perfect in the world. You cannot say that a man is like a cog in a wheel or that man is like a robot - you cannot say that. Human beings are something more than that, because we have spirit, we have mind and that mind wants satisfaction.

Can you meditate while doing other things?

You can meditate 24 hours a day. You can actually go shopping and meditate at the same time. That’s feasible. Have you ever ridden a bicycle? Have you ever taken another person along with you? Now, you are pedalling, you are talking, you are balancing yourself, you ring the bell and look here and there. So many things are happening at the same time. But where’s your mind? It is on the road, your attention is on the road. In the same way, your organs could be doing what they are assigned to do - your eyes could be seeing, your mouth could be speaking, your ears could be listening - and at the same time, your mind could be in unison with God. Each organ has a different function, and the function of the mind is to meditate. You can think about your friend, your money, your business, and this thinking causes problems. So the best thing is to think about God, and be in the world, but not of the world. Jesus said, “I am in the Father and the Father is in me.” The problem is, that we all know that God is within us, but we are not in God. Only through meditation do we go in God, merge in God. This is the climax of human life.

Once I get Knowledge, that’s it, isn’t it?

You plant a seed in the ground, you don’t plant a huge tree. Automatically, that small seed grows and becomes a tree. Spirituality, or the path of Knowledge, is not like a trip that you get into for may be three or four years. It is a way of life. Once you are initiated, then actually you have to live that life and evolve spiritually and finally merge into the infinite, because merging into the infinite is salvation. It’s like a sugar cube - the cube has length, breadth and height. Now, if you put it into water, what happens? the length dissolves, the breadth dissolves and the height dissolve. In the same way, these dimensions totally dissolve in infinity.

What do you mean by ‘mind’?

Mind cannot be defined as can a worldly object. Mind is very subtle matter. It is partly physical and partly paraphysical. That’s why the mind has the capacity to go through a wall. It’s like a magnet - the magnet has a physical limit, but the force of the magnet has a wider range. The magnet is a piece of metal, but you can move a pin with it, can’t you? That means that it has a dimension, but its force extends beyond that dimension. The mind is more like the force of matter. Mind is like a negative magnetism. It is like the magnetic power of the body - the body is like the magnet and the power of the body is the mind. The magnet is solid but the magnetism is not solid; it can go through things. I could be sitting in a closed room, but the mind will go out. You have to control the mind, because it can go and roam about, but it can be used if you control it.

Let me explain further. The mind is like a gate that stops everything, like the gates of a dam. When you open the gates, the water flows, and if the gate is closed, the water doesn’t flow. Water is the energy, but that energy is still be controlled by the gate, which is the mind. So without the mind, the energy simply flows and completely engulfs your life. But if the mind is there, the energy will be blocked. So if you actually want to have more experience, you won’t get more, you’ll get less, because of the mind.

How can one be selfless?

If you’re selfish for God, if God becomes the prime target in your life, then you will have no selfishness for the world or worldly things. How does one do that? All through meditation - meditation is the key. If you turn the key and open the lock, you have access to everything.

Is Knowledge some kind of evolved mental process?
It’s not a mental process, it is the process of concentration. Also, evolution means to be reborn, to come out. See, we are already spiritual beings, the spiritual entity is already inside us. We have to evolve in order to really taste it. It’s like having food ready, but you have to go inside the dining room in order to taste it. Then your understanding will be a balanced understanding. It is called the middle path. The will then has a spiritual inclination. Or you can call it a spiritual baptism. These are all different words, but they mean the same thing.

Can you explain about the types of karmas?

Yes, there are basically three types. There are karmas, the seeds which you are creating, there are karmas which you are suffering now and there are karmas which you will suffer. It’s like past, present and future karmas. Now, the karmas which you have done in the past you are suffering or enjoying at present, but you will, through Knowledge, be eliminating the karmas which you will suffer in the future, or even at present. You can correct your present and completely change your future. What you are cannot be changed - that you have to suffer. You have not broken, you have not neutralized your karmas, you are still under the karmic law. You are not above that. Coming here is due to karma. but through satsang, through practising the path of Knowledge, one can actually break that cycle of karma.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 21:07:40 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe Rawat ditched that stuff....
Message:
...because being a fish out of water (in the west), he realised that he didn't believe it himself .

No backup.

The only other rabbit in his hat was the devotion bizz.

Which he applied himself to ramming down our throats to the max.

When he realised that was bollix too , he gave up any attempt to 'explain' to his 'students', & concentrated on keeping bums on seats .

For someone like me , who had taken a 10 year gap (early 80's -90's) , but had not resolved the issues of being his devotee , going to see him again was a revelation.

No heaviness , much better organised etc.

Same underlying message : I am God .

Suckered in again.

What appals me about Rawat ( & his big brother) , is the sheer ferocity of ambition ; to be rich , to be powerful , & fuck Joe Blow .

I just hope his cravings ( read life goals if you're pc), make him decide to go back & mix it with the big boys in his native land .

From what Way says above , if the builder's daughter from outside Turin (Sonia) ,is smooching the eldest son of the Living Perfect Master (Shri HAns) , then Rawat will need to bring a King's ransom in moolah to the table if he wants to play the game.

Go , motherfucker , take your ill gotten gains & burn in the fire of your vanity .

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:04:02 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Everything I Need To Refute This Guy I Learnt In
Message:
Kindergarten.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:42:14 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Do you remember maharaji telling us..
Message:
that we could drive 100mph through the rush hour without having an accident, if we were meditating on the Word?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 16:28:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Kinda
Message:
I kinda remember it. I know I definitely got that message, got it a few times and never forgot it, such was my belief that the true devotee only needed to hear something once .....
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:00:52 (GMT)
From: 14 objections
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: new objections letter being mailed
Message:
For those who recall the '9 objections' letter from last year, there is now a new letter, this time with new and improved objections! See the 14 objections letter at Jean-Michel's website. Scroll down to 'An open letter to members of Prempal Rawat's cult.'

This letter, without the links, is being sent anonymously through the mail to any practicing premie whose address becomes known. This is an effort to insure that the information on the ex-premie website becomes available to as many premies as possible.

The letter is very short but it outlines all the major objections that have been discussed here. The objections are very briefly outlined, but together they present a powerful case. Hopefully, people will want to learn more.

Feel free to print out the letter and send it to your favorite premie.

No persons are mentioned by name in the letter.

Any suggestions are welcomed.

Thanks.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:28:13 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: 14 objections
Subject: suggestion for change
Message:
'premie blondes' kind of offends me in the context of a serious letter. Yes, I am blonde.

Blonde jokes are funny, and saying you are having a blonde moment is funny too. But I think in the context of discussing the guru sexually exploiting women followers the hair color seems to sort of 'blame' them for being a 'type'. I might, if neccessary, add on that he had a propensity to prey on women with blonde hair. It is is of interest because his interest in pretty blonde women shows a callousness and illustrates in a way that he may have been collecting 'blondes' the way he does watches. But lets not objectify blonde women in the way we describe it as that is the very thing our former perfect mastger lord speaker teacher satguru was doing to these very real women with blonde hair.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:56:59 (GMT)
From: WMary
Email: None
To: all
Subject: I have some info. from a friend...
Message:
in Amaroo. It is kind of technical engineering stuff a fence-sitting premie sent me. He says that things are weird around Amaroo right now, as they prepare for the big event. Tense, stressful. Even for the regular workers (slaves) who do not have contact with M. The higher ups are becoming nervous and everyone is on edge. I asked him if it was because of the lack of interest in these events, he said he was'nt sure, but it was definetly different from previous events. What he told me about was in regards to the drinking water system. I don't understand it, but he said he had concerns with it. Not that it is unsafe but he does not know if it is adequate to handle full scale operations full time. Restaurant, homes, tents, etc.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:24:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: WMary
Subject: worried about the drinking water? Or was it the
Message:
... the possibility of being given the KoolAid acid test? (a la Jim Jones?)
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:15:24 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: WMary
Subject: Anyone know about this stuff?
Message:
Anyone with any experience in this area? What about you, jondon? Anyone else with this kind of technical experience?
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 09:07:21 (GMT)
From: The Authorities
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: Anyone know about this stuff?
Message:
Amaroo is connected to the main water supply. You are repeating a story from 1997. The water is the same quality expierienced by the rest of SE QLD. Connection occured in 1998.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:56:36 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: WMARY
Subject: i will take a look
Message:
WMary I'd be willing to look at it for you. Someone where I work will understand engineering matters. You can get my Mass. work address from FA, make it C/O DJ (not JD). It will get to me.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:51:44 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: WMary
Subject: I wonder if they actually meet legal requirements
Message:
They've always said they do, but I wonder what would be the result of a careful inspection by local authorities.

I've seen the systems in India from close enough to see that they're not safe at all according to western standars.

Lots of premies got really sick there, I even remember the case of a guy who actually died there (about 10 years ago) from an infection. They brought him to hospital, but that was too late.

They don't even advise premies to be vaccinated against hepatitis, when it's a major problem in such environments !!

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 08:10:55 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel and all
Subject: if the registration flops, no worries. no show.
Message:
maybe thats the real worry.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 13:46:53 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hello, look at this.
Message:
Gwenda, me old premie mate that I found by mistake is doing rather well, she left he old job and is now running a guess what? A web design company.

I can not belive people still pay for these things. I think I'll contact her customers and offer a cheaper rate. Oh moola, how you elude me.

Who designed EV Canada online?

Oh and if you are wondering. I lost gwenda's e-mail (so what's new), well thanks to an e-mail virus that she got from someone anonymous, (not me I swear) I got a message from her with her new url. Ahhh, the way viruses work. he he.

(now let me see, that Anth asked me to get him a couple of password off EV web site. Right, get the e-mail first, write an innocent little message like 'I love maharaji, you are god', now let's add a little attachement to that, and opsy daisy, there goes nothing. Wow, I can hear them running already.)

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 14:48:33 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: also check out the smart card form
Message:
smartcard

Jim am ashamed of you, you let those people in your backyard without telling us, or are you a Canuck living in Miami.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:28:33 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Catch this in the Smart Card FAQ's
Message:
Here's what EV has to say in one section of the Smart Card FAQ's.

Can the card be used to track a person's private information without their consent?

EV recognizes that Smart Card technology can be used in ways a person does not intend. As an organization founded on person's personal choice, EV recognizes the right of an individual to privacy. No use of the card will be made without a person's permission or knowledge.

So, now EV is an 'organization founded on a person's personal choice'. What the feck does that mean? Well, now that I think about it, it is founded on a person's personal choice. Capt. Rawat's personal choice to enrich himself at the expense of others!

Keep up the excellent writing, EV.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:11:28 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: also
Message:
if you read the section on smart cards, you will notice how they are used to perform financial transactions and fund transfer from account.

Just imagine, an EV credit card. Must design one and put it on rawatSucks.

By the way, found few articles about some Australian cult leader that charges $3000 to go and see whales because they talk to him. Was charged by police for taking drugs. His conspirator is a doctor that ordered all the supplies of a certain drug in NSW and QLD for her leader, she was also charged and struck off the medical register. Reminds me of Asahara and the nerve gas incident in Japan. Thought might interest you. and while we're at it. you have done work on the distructive behavior of cult leaders that can or may lead to mass suicide. Do you think that rawat might ever contemplate something like that. On a scale, say of a 100, how does he rate. If it ever occurs, do you recon that Amaroo is the ideal place for such a thing?

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:25:43 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: salam
Subject: Geez Salam, I hope not
Message:
The big thing about Jonestown is that it was in the middle of the South American jungle and there was literally no way out. Jones took PT members' passports when they arrived in Guyana. The folks there were in his total and complete control for months, and he convinced them that the CIA was going to come in and kill them all. Because they were so isolated, and had no contact with the outside world, and because they thought he was God, they believed him and did as he asked. Also, people were instructed to give the cyanide drink to their kids first. After watching your child go through horrible, vomiting convulsions, and themselves being totally physically and psychologically exhausted, I think dying alongside your child might seem like a reasonable alternative, as Jones made it sound.

From what people here say, you can get away from this conference center rather easily. There are non cult members working there. Captain Rawat isn't holding psycho court there 24 hours a day to a captive audience. Maybe you should ask Michael Dettmers what he thinks about this.

Did you see the post about the water system? Does the conference center come under the jurisdiction of the local Health Board? Are there regular inspections?

Just thinking.....

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 17:19:37 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Geez Salam, I hope not
Message:
I am not sure how their water system is set up, but I suspect that it is a large in ground concrete tank. There are no sewer lines. Systems like that are designed to be self maintaining. All the water and refuse goes inside that tank. Special additives are added to the water to help the anearobic bacteria to grow and brake the organic matter. Because gases are produced, an automatic valve is used. This will open and close as the pressure of the gas increase, and pushes the water out, which is used on the gardens. This system has to be maintained professionally, no stuffing around with it. am not sure also under which county the counfrence center falls, cann't remember which part of Ipswich it is. It might also come under Peak Crossing as it is closer than Ipswich. I mentioned months ago that EV will not attempt to tamper with such a system, as there is the possiblility of explosion (methane gas). The tank needs inspection, which if EV is doing the right thing, is done every two to four weeks by a contractor. If sepage occurs then it might go into underground water and causes pollution and their ass is trash. I don't understand why are the panicing because of this, the system must have been tested in the past and should be sufficant to cater for the 100 or 200 premies that will be comming!!! Unless they are exoecting a large crowd, but then am sure the can rig up a temporary sanitary system with tankers emptying whenever the system fills up.

I think the panic is caused by something else other than logistic. Rawat and company know that this event is more advertised and monitored by exes. They maybe worried of press coverage, immigration rules, insurance problems and accident coverage, work cover and last but not least security issues. My feeling is that they are worried about exes disturbing the event. Remember,there are few million dollars to be made, few stinck bombs in the main hall before fatass comes will almost cancel the event.

Anyway, we will be camping on top of the rock. There are several location to lunch our stinck bomb enforced war heads. And don't forget the air drops. I have already printed the leaflets to throw from the air. and the convoy of picket line is ready to roll. In other words, we got his ass covered.

So suck on that EV AUSTRALIA INC.

p.s. forgot to say that I have finished the draft letter that we talked about in our last video confrence. I will e-mail it for approval then send the final copy to the newspapers.

must go to bed, talk to you later.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 11:52:25 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Special offer on White Page listings
Message:
If you haven't already done it, why don't you consider adding your name to the 'White Pages' listing at Ex-Premie.Org? I was just looking through the list today and a search with my 'find all' mechanism noted there are only 127 (one hundred and twenty seven) exes listed. Pathetic isn't it?

You know, figures like these make quite a statement don't they? You don't have to be a statistician to come to the conclusion that either the 'white pages' are not well advertised or that ex-premies are simply too scared to say who they really are.

It's all very well building your own personal 'Rant About Rawat' homepage like Salem but for crying out loud why? Nobody's gonna take it seriously (except for nut cases perhaps). IMO if you genuinely want to make an effective statement that clearly indicates to Elan Vital the seriousness of the drift away from M&K, there are two simple ways to do it. Either write up your Journey (which might be a bit time consuming) AND add your REAL name to the White Pages. It would hurt Mahahaha's pride severely to know there is a list of THOUSANDS who reject him.

Doing a quick search I can't even find inclusions for Anth Ginn or Nigel (unless he changed his name to John).

Yeah, yeah, I know all the rap about needing to be anonymous. Tell you what, yer f***ing mad if you think some premie zealot is gonna come gunning for you. You need treatment for paranoid delusions.

Oh, by the way, several months ago I posted something else about hiding behind anonymity where I stated my full name and details and even a photo of myself. Well, Jean-Michel added that post to an 'interesting points of view' page at E-P.O and soon afterwards the page started showing up at the top of all search engine results when looking for me and my business. I emailed Jean and asked him to remove the the link and my full name as being linked to a cult wasn't doing me any professional favours. He did so promptly. Thanks Jean. Clearly he does an excellent job submitting Ex-Premie.org to the search engines!!

The point is, I (like the majority of people here) would not want my previous cult history to get in the way of my livelihood today but as far as this board goes I'm happy that everyone knows who I really am and that I really exist.

Oh, and another thing... hello everyone.

Charlie who doesn't post often but is on the list to be executed by EV, maybe.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:32:03 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Special offer on White Page listings
Message:
Good to see you here Charlie, and from the sound of your post you're doing fine! I think most exes just want to slink away, and to be honest, I don't blame them. The best advert for how the cult is going is attendance at video events, and when the bailiffs go round to repossess the yacht, plane, cars, and house:-)

Will you be around on March 10th?

John.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:49:06 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Hi di hi, John
Message:
Yes, I'll be there. Where?

Actually John, I want to slink away myself but not without letting some air out of the cults tyres first, if you know what I mean.

I am also having to deal with two young teenagers and general mid-life crisis as well as cult deprogramming. Jeez it's exausting!

Aren't you supposed to be out yodeling in the mountains John? Are you making a special journey to be wherever on March 10th?

Charlie

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:57:30 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Charlie
Subject: Hi di ho, Charlie
Message:
Mountains?? In Latvia? That's a larf:-) Our highest mountain is 1000ft. But yes, I am living in the middle of the forests and swamps here in northern Latvia, and I love it! I'm coming to the UK to see Leeds United beat Manchester Utd, then a quick trip to Madrid to see Leeds qualify for the quarter-finals of the Champions League, and to meet all these crazy exes (as well as my 'normal' friends and relatives)!

Regarding where, we're working on it:-) Any suggestions? Somewhere reasonably central, good beer and wine, fairly quiet and conmfortable for us oldies (it's a Saturday night) and with a good curry house nearby.

John.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 04:49:28 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Re: Amaroo Registration.
Message:
Anyone knows if The registration fees has to be paid in $US in other countries (e.g. UK, France,...etc) above from Australia?

Is the amount the same for everyone or does it varies?

rawatsucks


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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 07:04:52 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Love your website
Message:
I shed a laughin' tear over that one. Good job. I hope you are not as angry as you sound. Better of to be cynical, not as high on the blood pressure. And lots of laughs.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 23:26:12 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Salam
Subject: Suggestion To Serve Our Lard
Message:
Maybe they can run an episode of 'Survivor' on the land and make money selling it to the big networks.

Steve

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 09:40:22 (GMT)
From: sivan
Email: sivan28@yahoo.com
To: Salam
Subject: nice touch, Salam! nt
Message:
blurt!
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 13:57:35 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: sivan
Subject: I lost your e-mail. Please e-mail me.
Message:
What you blurting about?
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 08:00:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: In the independent republic of San Francisco
Message:
we have to pay with Latvian schmoeskas.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:10:57 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: The currency in Latvia....
Message:
.... is, surprisingly, the Lat:-)

Guess what the currency in Lithuania is? You got it - the Lit. And Estonia? Well actually it's the Kroon:-)

John the Euro

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:12:31 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Just curious about how many ex-premies
Message:
are from UK and how many from the British colonies such as USA, Canada, Oz, South Africa etc?

My unofficial tally (of regular posters) is: UK 12, USA 26, Canada 3 and a half (the ex-non-expremie) and Oz 5 and a half (the non-ex whose name I don't want to say in case I invoke his attention - yuk!)

I'm curious because, for instance, it seems there are too many Brits and Aussie's proportionate to their countries' total population. I mean there are more than twice as many English speakers in USA than UK and all colonies put together.

Oh come on - stand up and be counted. It won't take ten seconds. I'll post an example after this.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 00:49:51 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel-I AM everyman,
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: er, every premie,er...Alabama, USA(God's country)n
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 22:05:24 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: The trunk of my car
Message:
Which right now, is outside Elan Vital headquarters in Southern California, now that I am allowed to do participation there. I work for food, but mostly for the hope of darshan.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:39:49 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: California: Bay Area - Camarillo commuter (nt)
Message:
lkjlkj
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:07:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: USA (No. California) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:39:06 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: USA (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 17:59:27 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Central Coast of California (nt) USA
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:01:35 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: IHQ! (Denver; USA) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 14:49:03 (GMT)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: USA (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 14:16:03 (GMT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: From the USA but living in Panamá (NT)
Message:
ssssssssssssssss
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 13:54:39 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Independent State of Amaroo (ISA).
Message:
rawatsucks
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:35:03 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: curious about how many ex-premies
Message:
It's not a very accurate reading but according to the White Page listing I find matches for the following...

USA = 75 (but not everyone listed from the USA say so exactly, some say California or NYC etc.)

Canada = 5

England = 12

UK = 29 (UK is also found in email addresses for .co.uk, so that's not a very accurate stat)

Anyway you get the idea, go and have a look.

If the form for sending details to the White Page were more stringent it would be easy to make quick and more accurate assessments.

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 02:14:14 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: all
Subject: un americun /nt
Message:
x
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:08:23 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: \
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I'm supposed to be Irish nt
Message:
Yipee!
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 12:03:16 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I'm Caesarian.
Message:
or is that my birth sign?

Anth from Mablethorpe

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:51:38 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: AJW
Subject: Premature Evacuator? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:13:18 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: and I'm under section (no, honest, no more)
Message:
1 brit standing up to be counted (for why?)
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:47:42 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I am an aussie..uh der.(NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:00:38 (GMT)
From: Sivan/Sam
Email: siva28@yahoo.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I,m an oz, Pat
Message:
looking foreward to the results of your survey
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 09:42:12 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: people's republic of santa monica--usa--nt
Message:
dude
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 09:16:33 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Brian Smith /USA (nt)
Message:
usa
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 08:58:12 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Columbia (British)
Message:
Still in Canada.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 08:52:58 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: USA nt
Message:
vkutf
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 07:51:03 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: uk (nt)
Message:
arse
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:21:32 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: USA n/t
Message:
raw raw raw
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:59:20 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: UK nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:22:36 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: UK NT
Message:
Have to put something here or it won't post.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:20:49 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Just curious about how many ex-premies
Message:
The reason I stopped posting here was to give the poorer British colonies, like America, a chance to have a say and make their voices heard. Now that some Americans have learned to write, it seems only fair to give them a chance.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 07:19:17 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Pat
Subject: Independent republic of San Francisco/nt
Message:
xxx
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:44:12 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Oh, welcome back Sir Dave! NT
Message:
h
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:14:20 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: USA - NT
Message:
or South Africa or England?
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:30:01 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: USA - NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:51:28 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: 'that place' - NT
Message:
sdgbs
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:50:00 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: USA-East Coast nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:24:56 (GMT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: USA NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 22:17:50 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Gonzoland (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:21:29 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Bin Liner
Subject: under a foot of snow
Message:
in Denver, Colorado, the ex-IHQ of the Universe
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 09:36:02 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Poll Results
Message:
Charlie's analysis of the white pages turned up:

USA = 75 (but not everyone listed from the USA say so exactly, some say California or NYC etc.)

Canada = 5

England = 12

UK = 29 (UK is also found in email addresses for .co.uk, so that's not a very accurate stat)

This poll's results are:

USA = 11

California = 3 (this state as everyone knows is not part of USA)

San Francisco = 1

Santa Monica = 1 (neither of these two cities is part of California)

UK = 4

OZ = 2

Amaroo = 1 (not part of Australia)

Eire = 1 (sorry I forgot about this Engliash speaking country only part of which is a British colony)

Columbian (British) = 1 (this province is not part of Canada in the same way California is not part of the USA)

There is also one poster from each of the following places:

That Place

Gonzoland

Panama

Un-American

Alabama (not even on most maps of the civilized world)

A car (poor Pauline)

A caesarian section from Uterus I mean Utrecht

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:58:08 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: awwww ... it ain't no fun anymore.
Message:
- taking the mick out of the guru, especially when he's taking it out of himself better even that Pauline Premie.

Witness -

this

on EV's site.
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:06:57 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: all, especially premies
Subject: What a REPETITIVE garbage!
Message:
If that is not programming I don't know what is. How is it possible that while IN the cult the obvious is overlooked? Why premies have a need to be reminded of the same basic stuff learned when kids, some, for more than 20 some years? They don't need to be reminded; premies just believe their guru and I know why the guru does it:

THE GURU IS GREEDY AND LIKES THE GOOD LIFE: HE NEED YOUR MONEY TO DO IT, YOU SILLY HEAD!

Maharaji convinces you to need him for that? In love with an imaginary friend...

Bullshit! Wake up!

A happy to be ex-premie

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:59:12 (GMT)
From: Barry
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: What a REPETITIVE garbage!
Message:
The smartest thing I've read all Day. The guru is pimp! Pimp is guru. It's simple. Pimping is pimping. SB has it together.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:20:36 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Barry
Subject: Correct: MAHARAJI IS A PIMP!!
Message:
You got it better.

LOL

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:00:26 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Maharaji: ''Blaa, blaa...blaa...blaa...blaa...blaa
Message:
He certainly is at a loss for words!

What a dope. He can't even think of anything new to say. And I subscribe to that shit! Yes, I feel I have to keep up on the new/old jargon.

If I press my reset button (on my computer that is), my computer will reboot, but ALWAYS scan for errors...!

How many errors has Maharaji made, and how many times has he ''Reset'' his button? I mean that figuratively, of course--no, I mean literally, actually.

The dope.

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:09:10 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: the biggest reset button in the universe
Message:
With this reset button you can wipe out all past lies and forget about the harm you have done to people in the past.
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:31:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: biggest reset button
Message:
snicker!
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:19:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Ha! I do that on a daily basis ... er, oops. (nt)
Message:
iew
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:07:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: good grief - there's more. M's message for today:
Message:
This is today's offering from EV:

'Don't just settle for the little nice
saying: 'The kingdom of heaven is
within you,' but find it. Know it, be in
touch with it. You must do this. I don't
care what your responsibilities are -
this one is yours, too, and you must
fulfill it. Fulfill this time. Fulfill this
heart. Understand.'

Maharaji in London, 14th June 1998

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:29:50 (GMT)
From: bill-typical eastern bs
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: burden-you MUST find some other world inside..nt
Message:
ryku
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:30:03 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: First he says he can show you ...
Message:
First he says he can show you the 'kingdom of heaven', then he switches it around and says 'find it', i.e. 'find it yourself'.

It's a bait and switch.

He knows he can't show anything, so he turns it around, acts like a guilt-trip-laying couch or a pep-talk cheerleader, or whatever he thinks he is. When he 'gives' these orders of his, which he seems fond of 'giving', he acts as if he knows something. But there's ample evidence that he himself is screwed up.

He promises something, doesn't deliver, than blames you for not finding it yourself.

This little quote shows classic intimidating tactics of a conman, giving orders and using feels of guilt ('you must...'). Fear and guilt. It sucks.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:35:36 (GMT)
From: Brian smith
Email: None
To: G
Subject: First he says he can show you ...
Message:
Todays quote from EV

Don't just settle for the little nice
saying: 'The kingdom of heaven is
within you,' but find it. Know it, be in
touch with it. You must do this. I don't
care what your responsibilities are -
this one is yours, too, and you must
fulfill it. Fulfill this time. Fulfill this
heart. Understand.'

'G' A very good illustration of the mechanics of a bait and switch operator. I am glad that you pointed this out, it explains why I spent many years in confusion and guilt for not measuring up to the standards of realization and devotion that I felt was necessary to deserve this shit.

I kept looking for M to show me something when all along I was supposed to find this something for myself.

Well I did finally find out something for myself, through no help from him. He is a liar, he is conning people, and that he one greedy selfish disallusioned bastard,

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:38:03 (GMT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: G
Subject: First he says he can show you ...
Message:
That is so true.

He yells at people and says they don't have happiness and peace.

Isn't it really the most fucking, stupid thing in the universe that heaven is inside you, but nobody knows it's there? What kind of stupid, masochistic God, would do something like that?

Then, you have to be really, really thirsty for it or this filthy rich fat Indian guy won't show it to you, who is the only one who can, and most people have never, and will never, even hear about him. What kind of a stupid masochistic God, would do something like that?

Then, when he doesn't deliver, it's because YOU aren't looking, aren't looking hard enough, don't have the proper understanding, and need to be constantly reminded (by a fat Indian guy who is filthy rich). What kind of a stupid, mashochistic God, would do something like that?

Then, you can't have the experience until you DO PARTICIPATION, and that means money, and like somebody said, this is only for rich people now. what kind of a stupid, mashochistic God....?

Then......masochistic God.....

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 02:51:16 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: First he says he can show you ...
Message:
Totally spot on Suzanne !
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:02:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Is God an asshole?
Message:
I think that the concept 'God is an asshole' is something Rawat uses in his manipulation of people. Many people already have this concept before they listen to him. I mean, consider the concept of a God that would make us 'imperfect', than damn us to hell for eternity for being 'imperfect', for example not believing the right concepts. Oh, but it's all our fault, we have free will after all.

Why else would premies put up with his 'lilas'? God's an asshole, so if Rawat acts like an asshole, so what? He's just being Himself, right? That's one rationalization for his behavior.

There's also the concept 'God's a nice guy (sometimes, if you're good).' But if you've been naughty, you don't get a present, you get a lump of coal. Rawat likes to give premies lots of mud.

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:54:16 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: I was still a cult member at the time....
Message:

I was still a cult member at the time but I had been invited to my cousin's daughter's wedding in Tahoe (I lived in England). Even though I had only met her once, I chose to go rather than see Maharaji. I justified it to my cult mind that I could see him in Barcelona in September that year, and registered for that program. The wedding was wonderful - met other relatives I had never previously met - and the Barcelona program was cancelled (anybody know why???). So no regrets, whereas earlier I would have whipped myself inside for making missing such an opportunity.

John the happier with flawed relatives than with the fundamentally flawed Lord of the Universe.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:48:49 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: It's all about priorities, isn't it?
Message:
- the Maha's spin would be that (heavy guilt trip here): you'd rather be at a distant relative's wedding than in the kingdom of heaven ???

Wotalottatosh.


BTW, where's the venue for the next Latvian nite?

Chris,

in the here and now, ... there and then ...

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:02:03 (GMT)
From: Moldy Warp
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: non compliant cult member and rotting veg garbage
Message:
Oh I know that earlier feeling all too well. Not going to satsang/program/event - waiting for the axe to fall (or the vegetables to rot) and instead having a warm, loving (dare I say blissful - probably not, too many nasty connotations) time with 'mere' mortals!As others have said on this post -- all that rotting veg garbage too reminiscent of punishing old-testament God!'£&* (explitives as I realise how horrible that is)
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:17:40 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Moldy Warp
Subject: Moldy Vegetable
Message:
Whenever I begin to feel too forgiving towards the urug I remind myself of that. Let's not let him get away with having laid such bad juju on us. That was extremely naughty and he will get smacked for that.
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:18:55 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: This feeling, this understanding, this drivel
Message:
is broadcast by satellite into your own home every Sunday and Thursday for the small cost of $75 per month plus $300 installation fee, $50 DISH fee per month and $5 DISH fee per broadcast. For less than $2,000 per year can listen to this same inspirational message repeated over and over again.

Or you may be lucky to occassionally hear something new like: ''Throughout the history of humans NO ONE has ever saved themselves. The Master is the only one who can save you. This world is like a spider's web and the more we struggle the more we beome entangled. Only by the infinite grace of that merciful Master, who comes and gently lefts us out of that web, can we be saved.''

This was repeated many times during the course of 1999 lest we had not taken our Prozac and had not heard it the first time.

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:51:14 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: This feeling, this understanding, this drivel
Message:
Was the spider web that kept me entangled for so long. It was not until I broke free from the Spider himself did I even begin to understand the true significance of this feeling, this understanding, this drivel and see it for what it really is.

'Gently lifts us out of the web' he says as the shackles and chains (Oh I forgot spider webs) are not loosened but tightened down and year after year I slipped into a deeper entanglement with M's illusion.

Shackled and chained to him/by him to something inside that I already had, that is as free as the air that I breathe, and the only way that I finally found peace was when I reclaimed my own free will and that's no Drivel.

He was right about one thing, there is a place of serenity and power inside, it just does not depend on him 'Maharaji' to 'experience' it. He lied when he says that 'this is my knowledge', as if he owned it.

I should have realized that back in 72 when someone showed me a book with the meditation techniques in there in grahic detail with detailed explanations. It raised just enough doubt to ask questions but the time for investigating my devotion was horrible. I was in New york and leaving on the jumbo jet for India and when I got back I was convinced that the book was the work of a disgruntled premie who was trying to discredit maharaji, Ha,Ha,Ha, I am really laughing now, 29 years later

Brian Now Laughing Loudly, better later than never

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:02:20 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Brian Smith
Subject: He who laughs last laughs longest nt
Message:
tee hee
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:21:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: But have you noticed that, as a 'non-religion' -
Message:
- he's now claiming that the knowledge is all about 'the kingdom of heaven'.

Again.

Plus ca change ...

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:29:06 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: But have you noticed that, as a 'non-religion' -
Message:
What about this from 2000?

''When I tell people that the God that they are looking for is within inside of them, they sometimes are afraid. Yes, it is scary that that creator is within us. But by my Master's mercy and kindness I can find that Creatot within me.''

No it's not a religion and never was since 1971.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:06:39 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: 'but by my Master's mercy...' now what is this?
Message:
does he think that people will think he's referring to his Daddy here? Or would he rather have people think that the 'Master' is ... guess who?

No, he never claimed he was God, did he? He just insinuated it.

(and still does).

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:05:16 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: But have you noticed that, as a 'non-religion' -
Message:
Was that 'creatot' deliberate? Brilliant anyway!
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 03:47:46 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: No, a typo, but you are quick Warp Speed NT
Message:
k
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 17:38:29 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Life 102: What to do when your Guru screws you
Message:
This is a grat book. I just finished it this weekend. You have got to check it out. Here is the description from Amazon:

Product Description
From Booklist
McWilliams, an astonishingly successful self-published writer, became a follower of the self-styled guru John-Roger during the 1970s. When John-Roger 'diagnosed' McWilliams as having AIDs, he also told the writer he had the cure: if McWilliams would write books, put John-Roger's name on them, and give him half the proceeds, he would talk to God. Brainwashed, McWilliams went along with it, and over the next six years wrote such successful books as Life 101 (a New York Times best-seller) while giving John-Roger the credit and the money. Now deprogrammed, McWilliams wants to (a) warn people about cults in general and John-Roger's cult in particular and (b) tell readers what a scumbag John-Roger is--a task he carries out with some relish. The chapter on how John-Roger also duped Ariana Huffington, wife of senatorial candidate Michael, is one of the dishiest in the book. Although McWilliams spells out how he came under John-Roger's spell, it still seems incredible that a brash, funny guy could actually believe that a chubby, balding con man was actually Jesus' best friend. It makes for an intriguing, witty book, though also a rambling and repetitive one. When McWilliams gave up gurus, he must have given up editors, too. Leon Wagner

Here is the link:
Life 102

Very similar to the great Guru Maharaj ji

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:30:38 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: oops! What do you do when your Guru SUES you
Message:
Freudian typo, my mistake. Screw...Sues....either way....you're screwed.
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 09:45:38 (GMT)
From: downunder
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: amaroo
Message:
got a call today special meeting re amaroo have to call 0392900901 next sunday at 11am oz eatern time to get location of meeting.
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 12:49:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: downunder
Subject: amaroo
Message:
Let us know how it goes downunder.

Anth the upover

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 10:11:06 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: downunder
Subject: amaroo
Message:
bet you it's about all the preperation we are having regarding the stink bombs and the airplane that'll be flying about on certain days, among other thing.
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 03:30:51 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Yup, propogation is REALLY humming along
Message:
From ELK's 'Days'

Blanca Oraa: Magic is amazing
From Getxo-Bizkaia, Spain

In a way the introductory broadcast felt like a challenge for me; I tried to make it great, I invited people with a lot of care, I prepared a beautiful tea with scones.
When the broadcast started, nobody came but me and my two friends with Knowledge. I felt like crying. I didn't know what to do, so I relaxed and I trusted. I tried to enjoy the broadcast, which I did.

Next Wednesday, as if by pure magic my guest showed up and liked it.

Note the singular guest! Hope he/she liked scones:)

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 05:55:58 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: How mentally old is this person???? WHOW!
Message:
How sad to see what rawat's sucking teachings make of a person!
How retarded being a premie can be?

How inmature!

I heard today that an instructor is having a program in Michigan to 'explain' what is Knowledge and how to propagate...and the premies keep going to these events...like they never heard it before? All is so idiotic! Of course, it's easier to see it when you are out: IT DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE!

Thanks for 'the beauty'.

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 06:05:23 (GMT)
From: NW Mole
Email: None
To: all
Subject: This Just in: 'NEW INITIATIVES AND DISCUSSION'
Message:
NEW INITIATIVES AND DISCUSSION

------------------------------
Instructor Danielle Fitzpatrick will be visiting the Seattle area this coming weekend and will be attending several events, giving people the opportunity to learn more about recent developments regarding resources and materials available for introducing people to Knowledge, learning more about Knowledge, and receiving and enjoying Knowledge.

On Sunday, February 18th, after a short refreshment break following the satellite broadcast of 'Timeless - Madrid 1991', there will be an update with instructor Danielle Fitzpatrick on new initiatives including Knowledge sessions and broadcasts, highlighting materials and other tools for propagation. Time will be included for discussion.

Danielle's presentation will begin around 2:15 PM, depending on the length of the broadcast. This event is for People with Knowledge and those preparing to receive Knowledge and will be held at the Johnson Controls Building in Bellevue.

Two addition opportunities are also being made available to have additional discussion with Danielle in a more casual atmosphere. Held in two locations on two different dates for convenience, the discussion will be guided by the interests of the participants. Come to either or both:

- On Saturday, February 17 (the day before the event at the hall) at 7:30 PM at the home of Claudia Edwards and Carol Lissance, 4552 51st Place SW in West Seattle

- On Monday, February 19 (the day after the event at the hall) at 7:30 PM at the home of Paul and Janet de Coriolis, 3420 169th Avenue NE in Bellevue

Both events are for People with Knowledge and those preparing to receive Knowledge. Driving directions to both locations are available at local events. You can also get directions by email by replying to this message.

Danielle will also be doing events in other cities throughout the Northwest. For information, please reply to this message.

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 06:38:43 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: NW Mole
Subject: Well
Message:
did you reply? We need some good shit.
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 11:40:21 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: NW Mole
Subject: I hope you will attend
Message:
NW Mole: I hope you go to one of these more informal events where the participants guide the discussion. Listen to everything that is said, and then ask some pointed questions, like:

What is Elan Vital's policy about compensating people who were sexually abused by Mahatma Jagdeo?

Is Captain Rawat really trying to buy an even larger yacht so that he can land his helicopter on it? Can I go for a ride when he gets the yacht, seeing as I helped pay for it?

Ask a few zingers like that and see what kind of answers you get. Of course, EV will now start 'synchronizing' all sorts of responses to these specific questions, so be creative and think up some good ones yourself. And by all means, have fun.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 19:18:19 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Good questions Marianne - here's some more
Message:
Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? Who is the father of creation? (sung like the old song by Alan whatshisname)

Will there be a darshan line at the Amaroo event or can I just touch the TV screen during satellite feeds and get darshan?

Where is the crown and Krishna suit Maharaji used to wear? Will it one day be displayed in the Great Temple of Knowledge or for sale on Ebay?

So many premies - especially PAMs - smoke outside every event during breaks. Isn't Knowledge enough to satisfy one's deepest desire? If not, which brand does the Captain, er, I mean the Speaker smoke?

Why do we need these carefully sanitized packets of information to talk about K? What happened to talking from my own experience? Is Maharaji ashamed or afraid of what his devotees might say? Is my own personal experience not valid after practicing K for 30 years?

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:09:59 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: He smokes Marlboro
Message:
so a mole told me.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:42:50 (GMT)
From: Malibu Mole
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: He smokes Dunhill Blue (Box)
Message:
When times are good he prefers Dunhill (the aristocratic butt). When times are tough, he defaults to Marlboro. He has a sort of fantasy about being a cowboy out on the plains of Amaroo, ridin' a horse, smokin' a butt, lookin' cool, swiggin' a blast of Courvosier from a snifter in his boot, tippin' his cowboy mala to the ladies......ah Guru Maharaji...the western ladies man.

But when in Europe and in times of plenty, it is Dunhill Blue in a box, 3-piece suits, Courvosier from a snifter, no hat just a rakover from downunder to hide his plains of Amaroo on the back of his head. Desertification of the Dome, nothing a little spray can of hair can't fix.....ah Guru Maharaji....European ladies man.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:22:10 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: LOL That is funny! (nt)
Message:
hahahhahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:52:34 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Malibu Mole
Subject: ah nice to see you Malibu Mole
Message:
what a pathetic pictue you paint of the lard
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 14:56:17 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I hate Marlboro
Message:
makes me cough. Maybe that is why he shrieks when he talk, to clean his lungs of nicotine.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:23:46 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: I like Winston, more natural
Message:
Yack...another habit.

I don't hate him any less today.

You? Luv u more each day!!

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:02:00 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: I don't know why am smoking
Message:
I mean talking about somking, I gave it up six week ago.
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:51:40 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Good questions Postie especially re secrecy
Message:
This always drove me nuts, I would be told to keep it quiet for the moment....Like whats to hide for god's sake? this is the ultimate truth after all!! Either that or some insignificant detail about a future event.

As to what happened to speaking from your own experience. I don't know when he first said it, but I heard him say in Rome, 1996...'Do me a favour, don't say anything , let me do the talking' I have included here a couple of excerpts from a recent post I wrote entitled 'Miragey's recent diatribe' The whole thing is now in 'best of forum' here they are..

'The Master says, yes this is OK to do, you may talk about knowledge, you may not talk about knowledge. Both have to be taken with the same stride….'

'Whatever we forge for the future, we have to remember.. where.. we.. came from, and we have to remember, most importantly, how incredibly dangerous, incredibly dangerous, this stuff is….. Shooting your mouth off is not innocent by any stretch of the imagination….What you say in your…fuzzy feeling…you know what I mean…fuzzy feeling? When you’re feeling nice and oooh sooo inspired, can be deadly dangerous. What you say cannot have any tolerance for mistakes…'

The whole cult is riddled with paranoia. And as for the business about the 'speaker'...or sometimes 'the principle speaker'. It's a joke.

I'll tell you a story..I recently travelled by train to Harrogate UK to attend an auto knowledge session and later an address by Rawfat. On the train I met a premie called Celia from Swansea, the very one who Jim quoted recently as feeling very isolated, because there are no more public events in Swansea, everyone's got their own satellite dish, and she's not invited....(no comment!!) She insisted we share a taxi to the conference centre and the driver asked us which conference we were attending...Was it the food conference or the one that no-one will tell us anything about? That's the one I said!! So, he asked 'well what is it about?' and before i could formulate a perfect reply, Celia told him...'There's going to be a guest speaker.'
'Well, that certainly narrows it down!' he replied. By which time we had arrived and the search for truth was interrupted by the search for cash to pay the fare!

His conclusion was that it was something to do with wife swapping! Viva propagation!

Kelly

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:57:39 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: hilarious story (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 15:07:06 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Kelly
Subject: Good questions Postie especially re secrecy
Message:
Kelly,

I think I know this Celia person you're talking about. If you see her again, can you ask her about me, see if she remembers, 20 years ago. I was studying at the uni in Swansea then. If it's her, will you please get her to e-mail me, thanks

Salam

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:39:24 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Who is Celia? what is she?
Message:
Hi Salam,

I'm very unlikely to run into Celia again, I never met her before, but I do know several Swansea premies and very lovely people they are too. So, I could easily make contact if you like...Is there anyone else you'd like to get in touch with? from your old days, most of them have been around a long time, so I'm sure they'll remember you.

Just say the word..oh no of course it cannot be spoken!
Love Kelly

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:35:58 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: That's hilarious Kelly
Message:
Kelly sez: 'Was it the food conference or the one that no-one will tell us anything about? That's the one I said!! '
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:29:49 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Good questions Marianne - here's some more
Message:
If the new non-cult ''church'' is so respectable and mainstream nowadays why is that:

1) there are secret meetings by invitation only?

2) there is a secret ''first class'' email system?

3) premies refuse to answer my questions by email and always insist on a face to face meeting to discuss my concerns?

4) there is a conspiratorial atmosphere surrounding Capt Rawat and he is only referred to as the ''speaker'' or the ''client?''

5) premies are only admitted to events if they have a Smartcard?

6) the ordinary premies in the trenches are told that Elan Vital has issued unwritten guidelines ''because Maharaji cannot say certain things?''

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 19:25:30 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Excellent, Postie!
Message:
Very funny too.
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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:50:29 (GMT)
From: Flea in Your Ear
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: An awkward question to as the instructor
Message:
NW Mole, if you go to Instructor Danielle Fitzpatrick's presentation, could you also ask why her wife of 7 years does not have Knowledge?

It seems strange that someone has the ultimate truth but has not yet shared that with their loved one.

You could also ask her how much money she has to donate in order to buy the title of Instructor. She is independently wealthy and does not draw a salary from Elan Vital.

You could also ask her how much money one has to donate in order to sit on her secret (by invitation only) ''participation team'' that she runs.

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:15:02 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Flea in Your Ear
Subject: Questions
Message:
Danielle has a 'secret participation team?' What is that, and does one have to 'donate' to be on it. And why is it 'Danielle's' team?

I take it Danielle is not empowered to reveal the meditation techniques (1 through 4, formerly light, music, nectar and holy name), so what does she do, anyway, for which she recieves no compensation, supports herself on her own income, and lives with a partner who isn't interested in knowledge? I mean, there are apparently scant few aspirants, so does she just create busy work for herself, having meetings to 'do partitipation' and hang out? How bored is she?

Doesw she get to say what 'participation' means? Does she rule in some geographic region of her own?

I don't recall her. Has she been around a long time? I assume she is, like everyone else in the Elan Vital organization, a premie from the 70s.

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:38:08 (GMT)
From: Flea in Your Ear
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The short answer to your Questions is
Message:
Think rich, bored, save the whales, counter-culture, Birkenstock-shod, Berkeley, trust-fund lesbian who would have probably become a pastor in the gay Metropolitan Church if she had not gotten K.

The answers to your questions:

''Danielle has a 'secret participation team?' What is that, and does one have to 'donate' to be on it. And why is it 'Danielle's' team?''

It's secret so how would I know. He/she who donates the most is highest up on EV ladder.

''Does she just create busy work for herself, having meetings to 'do partitipation' and hang out?''

Yes.

''I don't recall her. Has she been around a long time?''

I don't know you or who you know so I can't answer your question but yes she's been around for a long time. Thousand Oaks EV HQ for many many years.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:32:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Flea in Your Ear
Subject: More Questions
Message:
Thanks for your answers.

Think rich, bored, save the whales, counter-culture, Birkenstock-shod, Berkeley, trust-fund lesbian who would have probably become a pastor in the gay Metropolitan Church if she had not gotten K.

I think this might have been true at one time, but there is absolutely nothing 'counter-culture' about Maharaji's cult now, is there? It seems like a new-age, est-like, devotional cult, mostly for yuppies and the few hippie-holders-on. And the Metropolitan Church does a lot for the community, for people. The Maharaji cult does nothing for anyone but Maharaji.

Is the Participation Team is secret, how do you know there is one? Do you know why it is secret?

Does her partner go to 'events?'

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:06:54 (GMT)
From: Flea in Your Ear
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More Questions - you're insatiable!
Message:
You ask: ''...there is absolutely nothing 'counter-culture' about Maharaji's cult now, is there? It seems like a new-age, est-like, devotional cult, mostly for yuppies and the few hippie-holders-on.''

The New Age counter-culture thing is fairly mainstream now especially in terms of organic food, health, yoga, and ''spiritual'' stuff. Think of her as doing weddings for lesbians in pashmina shawls on Mt Tam.

You ask: ''If the Participation Team is secret, how do you know there is one? Do you know why it is secret?''

Don't ask a mole which tunnels she's been digging in, sweetheart.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:18:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Flea in Your Ear
Subject: Think so?
Message:
Well, sweetheart, keep right on digging and don't let me stop you, no way, Jose.

Counter-culture that is mainstream is kind of a confusing concept, perhaps an oxymoron, but whatever you say.

I mean, would it be a different thought if she was performing weddings on Mt. Tam for straight people, rather than lesbians? I mean is the fact that she's a lesbian significant here? Just wondering.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:31:21 (GMT)
From: Flea in Your Ear
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Don't you ever read Vogue?
Message:
Crystal gazing, aromatherapy, astrology, tarot readings are IN. I thought you were the FV token fag. What kind of fag are you that you don't read Vogue?

The wedding on Mt Tam could also be for Marinites who got rich selling cocaine in the 80s and now have TWO hot-tubs, a new Lexus and an old BMW and two and half kids on E. But they probably met their pasor at the local ashtanga yoga meeting in Mill Valley.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 05:55:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Flea in Your Ear
Subject: Well aren't we testy?
Message:
Maybe you're having a bad day, or month, or year, we understand.

Hmmm. I never read Vogue, but it sounds like you read it all the time. Is that because you are a homosexual?

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 07:40:45 (GMT)
From: Flea in Your Ear
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: No, I'm not gay but some of my best friends are
Message:
and some of my best friends are also premies.
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 16:18:49 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Flea in Your Ear
Subject: Dear Flea....
Message:
Though I agree with your assertion, or is it an assessment, um never mind...

I agree that things that used to be counterculture are mainstream these days, especially in Ca, and I am sure even more so in SF. Yoga is in, aromatherapy is in, a lot of new age things are very in vogue right now and I agree more mainstream than being sort of 'hank Hill'

But I hope your posts are tongue in cheek with the gay stuff. It is hard for me to tell, being the most conservative of the posters. But Joe is someone I have tremendous respect for and listen to all his opinions as they are well thought out and Joe is just plain very bright. Could you clarify whether or not you are insulting him or this is a joke?

Susan ( the concrete imitator of Anth )

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 18:25:06 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Thanks, Susan, you are my Valentine
Message:
Well, I guess that was yesterday, but thanks for your support. You are a real sweetheart, for real, not the way Flea means.

It's okay though, I'll send you an email about this.

Joe

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:33:50 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Susan
Subject: Dear Flea....
Message:
Susan,

Though I agree with your assertion, or is it an assessment.

That depends on which of Flea’s statements you are referring to. “Crystal gazing, aromatherapy, astrology, tarot readings are IN” is an assessment. “No, I'm not gay” is an assertion. Hope that clears things up. Just trying to be helpful.

Michael

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:03:53 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: However, in english .........
Message:
In english, Mike, plain, old regular english, they're both assertions. AND they're both apparently expressions of assessments. After all, how does he really know he's not gay? Maybe he's fooling himself.

(Right around now, Dettmers is beginning to think 'Thank God, I didn't waste my time buying an expensive birthday gift for Heller last year. What's with this guy anyway? Doesn't he have a work to go to or something? He clearly doesn't understand Austin and he doesn't seem to even want to. Oh well ...')

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:10:42 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jim
Subject: However, in english .........
Message:
Jim,

How long have you been into mind reading? You got it all wrong judging by what you thought I was thinking. I've already said that it's fine by me if we agree to disagree on this one.

Michael

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:20:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: However, in english .........
Message:
Mike,

The brain-scan was a joke. For all I know you could have any number of reactions to my comments.

But more importantly, I do hear you when you suggest we 'agree to disagree'. The problem I've got, though, is that, perhaps because they respect you as they do, perhaps because it just makes a lot of sense to them, perhaps just because people know that premies have made lots of mistakes in our communication over time, some here, like Susan for instance, are picking up this 'assessment / assertion' thing and running with it. You might not want to talk about it much but others do. What do you suggest I do in the circumstances?

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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:56:03 (GMT)
From: Michael Dettmers
Email: dettmers@gylanix.com
To: Jim
Subject: However, in english .........
Message:
Jim,

I knew you were joking.

As for me, I have no desire to push anything on anyone. It’s just that I am very sensitive when I hear people speak as thought they have the “Truth.” I bought into M’s claims about the Truth and proceeded to waste almost 20 years of my life. I have found my studies in the ontology of language to be very effective in helping me think more clearly about such issues. But, I do not claim that it is the “Truth.” Having said that, there is much more to it than the distinction between “assessments” and “assertions.” It is a rich discourse that can be very useful for learning how to live more effectively in the midst of permanent change and uncertainty. If you want to know more, we can take it off line.

In either case, I suggest that you be you and continue doing what you do.

Michael

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:24:13 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: However, in english .........
Message:
Jim, do you think that perhaps as the language evolves that Michael's assessments of the difference between assertions and assessments, or is it assessments of the difference between assertions and assessments, um, will change and become more codified in dictionaries at large?

I actually think the point of what Michael is saying is a good one, that we should discriminate between what is provable fact vs opinion, and that we should be aware that much of what we assume is fact is really in essence opinion. If we spoke in a more precise way that reflected the difference, as Michael is attempting to do, I think it would improve human communication.

Well, that is what I assert he is saying, or assess?

Sorry Michael, I better get the book. I hope you are taking this in good humour ( I spelled it that way for you and Jim).

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:36:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: DON'T PATRONIZE ME, PLEASE!
Message:
I hope you are taking this in good humour ( I spelled it that way for you and Jim).

God, Susan, I can spell both ways. What do you think I am?? An complete ingoramous or something? Shiesh!

In answer to your questions -- honestly?? -- honestly, i say that no, I don't think Austin's ever going to change to language because, from what I can tell, he's not offering anything special to displace the conventional meanings of those two fine words, 'assertion' and 'assessment'. I further think that it's a bit trite to caution one to remember to distinguish between what we know as facts and what could only be our best guess about the facts. People often blur these and, to the extent they do, I agree they should be challenged as the need arises. However, I think it's a simple point and not worthy of any new theory or vocabulary. It's certainly not worthy of pirating the vocabulary we've already got.

Here's what I say: if Austin et al. have such great, new ideas about how we think and talk, let them coin their own terms and see how useful they become to the world at large. If the ideas are meaningfully fresh enough, the new words will get good circulation and people will be forced to learn the new terms in order to get their import. If not, they won't.

Mind you, it may be that I don't know at all what I'm talking about. I sure haven't studied this stuff like Scott and Micke have. I'm simply responding to the way these ideas have been presented and a bit of net research I've done.

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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 22:04:47 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: DON'T SHOUT, We can hear you (nt)
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 03:04:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: You always do this, Kelly?
Message:
They're called jokes. You never get mine. Oh well.
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Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 15:51:29 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You always do this, Kelly?
Message:
Oh shit! Really? I'm sorry Jim, I do seem to keep missing your jokes. We must have a different sense of humour. Or, even worse, maybe I haven't got one after all. Either way, I'll look before I leap next time.
Kelly
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:06:08 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I've been itching to patronize you for a long time
Message:
xxx
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:37:27 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Michael Dettmers
Subject: thanks Michael
Message:
I hoped you might read that :)
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 17:56:57 (GMT)
From: Flea in Your Ear
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Dear Susan, I couldn't resist pulling Joe's leg NT
Message:
g
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:22:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Flea in Your Ear
Subject: Consider trying (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:41:23 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Flea in Your Ear
Subject: Who the fuck you calling a token fag, bitch?
Message:
Everybody knows that's Thelma the Fat Fag.

I think I know who this cow is, Joe. Look at your email.

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