Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 16:34:45 (GMT)
From: Feb 09, 2001 To: Feb 20, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


magnolia -:- verbal obfuscation -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:13:57 (GMT)
__ Charles S -:- verbal obfuscation -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:18:34 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- another video -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 04:50:30 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- verbal obfuscation -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:41:43 (GMT)
__ __ CD -:- verbal obfuscation -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 02:04:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- Talking of bullshit.... -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 07:27:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- FYI -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:22:29 (GMT)
__ X -:- understanding experience -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:19:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- understanding experience -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Experiencing the taste of a mango, how original -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:15:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ CD -:- simple -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:48:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ hamzen -:- simple if you avoid answering questions, yeah -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 05:37:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- simple -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:56:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- simple -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 21:20:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- simple -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 00:49:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- simple -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 02:41:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- simple -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:14:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ magnolia -:- breath worshipping -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 06:15:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- breath worshipping -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 21:27:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ magnolia -:- no haters here! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:38:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- re. the 'irrational hogwash' question... -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 17:24:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magnolia -:- premies believe the lotus feet don't stink -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 18:32:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Magnolia, you've got a good man there -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:15:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- no haters here! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 02:06:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magnolia -:- BR? help me out, please -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 13:10:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- OK -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 01:13:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ magnolia -:- OK -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 12:26:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- breath worshipping -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 22:07:02 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- The Experience -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:40:08 (GMT)
__ MARK -:- verbal obfuscation -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:01:01 (GMT)
__ __ magnolia -:- not my idea of a romantic evening -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:19:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ mark -:- 'Beneath the Valley of the Ultra-Vixens' -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 22:23:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Magnolia, now that's my favorite kind of bliss -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:49:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ dj cuttlefish -:- Very sensible -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:49:30 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- It scared me magnolia -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:59:45 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Yes, Magnolia -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 20:12:16 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- easy answer...YES -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:33:53 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- verbal obfuscation -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:32:07 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- He's lucky -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 08:21:15 (GMT)

AJW -:- Why do you post on the forum? -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 13:41:49 (GMT)
__ salam -:- yeah, well it's about bloody time -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:17:53 (GMT)
__ dj cuttlefish -:- Good question -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 22:04:44 (GMT)
__ Roy -:- Why do you post on the forum? -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:00:23 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- What's your credit card number Roy? -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:30:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- and you sent your check to the wrong person! -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:40:31 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Anth: Ditto, Amen and Hallelujah NT -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:18:27 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- Why not add this to your journey? -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 15:00:52 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Why not add this to your journey? -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:42:28 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Why I post too, and you should too, esp. PAMS -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:12:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim G -:- Reasons to post part 3 -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:27:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- Reasons to post part 3 -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 05:03:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The victors write the history -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:23:21 (GMT)

Tim G -:- Setting up Mythological Masters -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 12:52:04 (GMT)
__ Joy -:- Setting up Materialistic Masters -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:31:43 (GMT)
__ __ Tim G -:- Setting up Materialistic Masters -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 17:30:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joy -:- Ram Dass = U R Not Your Body -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 19:56:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Ram Dass ''Be Here Now'' changed my life -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 03:34:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Ram Dass' Theory/Let the Mystery Be -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:03:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Right on! Love Iris and know that song ;-) n/t -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:42:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Sweet Mystery of Life -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:08:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Imagine only 3 words !! -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 18:19:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Imagine only 3 words !! -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:13:52 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Indian youth leave tradition, embrace west's ideas -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 05:30:16 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- They should have burned all the books -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 06:27:06 (GMT)
__ __ Jethro -:- They should have burned all the books -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:36:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bazza -:- I'd forgotten about that -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 04:36:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- This ishow I got arount it. -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 11:45:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- They are burning all the books -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:53:38 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- I Hope You Don't Mind Me Joining Your Party -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:04:48 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- You're pulling my leg like I was pulling yours -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 09:11:31 (GMT)
__ bill -:- 66 million untouchables -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 06:05:24 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- 66 million untouchables and suttee -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 09:46:19 (GMT)

U Post It! -:- Guru Snatch-a-buck, Holy Go Lightly and the Temple -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 02:34:14 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- Guru Snatch-a-buck, Holy Go Lightly and the Temple -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 04:25:32 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- question moldy warp -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 20:37:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ moldy warp -:- question moldy warp -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 03:14:23 (GMT)

Jana -:- OK, I am new here and not angry at all -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 01:32:47 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- Hello Jana -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 18:48:03 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Hi Jana. Me not new and not angry. -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 15:45:54 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- Hi Jana. Me old and really pissed -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:25:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Me old and really EXTRA pissed -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:10:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ JohnT -:- I angrily despise Rawat but was never a premie -NT -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:50:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Why?............nt -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:06:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Why not? -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:47:52 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Hi Jana -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 10:05:05 (GMT)
__ __ Jana -:- Hi Jana -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 03:34:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Premie Children -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 10:35:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jana -:- Premie Children -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 13:18:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jana -:- Mercedes -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 03:57:57 (GMT)
__ X -:- OK -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 09:40:43 (GMT)
__ __ Forum Admin -:- To X - An Outstanding Issue -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 15:07:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ X -:- ID discovery proceedings -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 20:55:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Forum Admin -:- ID discovery proceedings -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:48:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- ID discovery proceedings -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 00:23:02 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- OK -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 10:42:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ X -:- OK -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 11:51:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- OK -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 20:26:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Squaring the Circle -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 15:43:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tim G -:- Squaring the Circle I bow to you -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 17:44:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Squaring the Circle-now THIS is infinity as it IS. -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:48:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Fractals = Mandlebrot Set = Thumbprint of God -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 18:57:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Fractals = Thumbprint of God ?? -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:14:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Thank you professor. (nt) -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:32:12 (GMT)
__ Brian -:- OK, I am new here and not angry at all -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 02:38:43 (GMT)
__ __ Jana -:- OK, I am new here and not angry at all -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 03:59:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- OK, I am new here and not angry at all -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 04:33:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jana -:- This whole site is really about recovery -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 13:51:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jana -:- OK, I am new here and not angry at all -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 05:45:22 (GMT)

gErRy -:- The eNiGmA of the Filament... -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:43:16 (GMT)
__ ham -:- You didn't realize he was a zen master then GeRrY -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:53:14 (GMT)
__ Know It All -:- The eNiGmA of the Filament... -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:47:40 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- The eNiGmA of the Filament... -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 18:16:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- The eNiGmA of the Filament...the final phase - -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:28:19 (GMT)

EV Recruitment Division -:- Come Join The Fun !!!!! -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 22:23:32 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Participation -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 10:10:15 (GMT)
__ moldy warp -:- Come Join The Fun !!!!! -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 04:37:08 (GMT)
__ The Elan Vital Satarist -:- I give up -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:29:46 (GMT)
__ __ magnolia -:- andy kaufman or m? let's mimic an immigrant -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 14:18:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Hell, it used to be worse (or was it?) -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:28:37 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- I give up -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 07:51:56 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Oh My God! It's Real! -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 07:20:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Essays by tomorrow morning please. -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 13:11:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Know It All -:- Those positions will remain vacant.... -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 09:31:33 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Thank God I'm out off it ! nt -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 23:28:10 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Stange!!! -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 22:51:14 (GMT)
__ __ Steve Quint -:- I Guess They Meant 'Offer' -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 01:36:29 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- BIG question jumps right out at me -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 22:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- BIG question jumps right out at me -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:42:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- resistance is futile -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 17:14:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- resistance is futile -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 17:37:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- resistance is futile - we are the Borg NT -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 18:53:25 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Somebody probably had a bright idea. -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 10:15:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Premie mailing lists for sale to purveyors of -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:00:19 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- BIG question jumps right out at me -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 23:48:27 (GMT)
__ __ Cynthia -:- BIG question jumps right out at me....DECA -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 23:23:56 (GMT)

Gregg -:- another enigmatic EV 'expression:' -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 21:11:41 (GMT)
__ SpacyT -:- Last Post -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 23:22:12 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Last Post (meaning no possible discussion?) -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 01:12:53 (GMT)
__ __ hamzen -:- Last Post (will you read this?) -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:25:31 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- Last Post, I hope not -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 23:53:57 (GMT)
__ Elan Vital -:- another enigmatic EV 'expression:' -:- Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 22:13:09 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:13:57 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: verbal obfuscation
Message:
okay, i'm the outsider who dates a long-term premie (circa 1971) and has posted a couple of comments/questions since finding this site several months ago. i wanted to understand my boyfriend's experience, partly because i'm a cultural history junkie and partly because his devotion to m drives me crazy at times. i ordered the lord of the universe video from amazon and finally watched it yesterday. it was a great period piece. m's press conference in the film hit a nerve with me - the manner in which he answers questions with questions, circular logic and subject changes. the newsweek reporter complained afterward about m's dodges. just last week, i got up the courage to get into a confrontational discussion (read: argument) with my love interest about many of the issues raised on this site. when i asked outright questions regarding what he really thought about m and knowledge, he tended to answer my questions with other questions, rambling metaphors, references to the upanishads which i am admittedly not familiar with, i.e. endless obfuscation much like his master. i started yelling 'why do you keep refusing to just answer a question?' but this video makes it look as if it's just another technique given out.

my question to y'all is this: back when you were believers, did you also talk like m when confronted with doubters? could you be logical and normal and intelligent on everyday subjects, but be subject to resorting to irrational hogwash on the subject of m and knowledge?

thanks... i check in on your forum every couple of weeks, and you all are an entertaining bunch!

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:18:34 (GMT)
From: Charles S
Email: bctanda@hotmail.com
To: magnolia
Subject: verbal obfuscation
Message:
There is lot's of information on this website regarding the background and religious roots of what M. teaches. Rather than questioning your beau's 'experience', you might find it easier, and he may find it less confronting, to talk about the background from which M's teachings come from.

Much has been written about people's experiences, and weather or not it really has anything to do with the guru. One of my favorites is this by professor David Lane:

Excerpt from:
EXPOSING CULTS: When the Skeptical Mind Confronts the Mystical.
(More chapters of 'Exposing Cults' online here.)
Author: David Christopher Lane
Publisher: Garland Publishing, Inc. New York and London.
Publication date: August 1999

''It turns out that almost everybody has the inherent ability to see inner light and hear inner sound. Moreover, almost everybody has the capacity to have an out-of-body experience and behold wondrous inner visions. You don't need to go to an Indian guru to have such experiences indeed, you don't need to go anywhere at all.

But that's not what Kirpal Singh and his successors told their vast following. Instead, unsuspecting seekers(who number in the thousands) were taught to believe that it was the guru himself, not the disciple, who was orchestrating the elevation of the soul into higher regions. But Kirpal and crew were not being completely forthcoming about the mechanism which governs access to such amazing sights and sounds. That mechanism is the brain and that three pounds of glorious tissue is the lot of all humans.

In the early 1980s when I was teaching religious studies at a Catholic high school, I tried several meditation experiments with my students which convinced me that Kirpal Singh and other gurus like him were taking undue credit for their disciples' inner experiences. In my trial mediation sessions, I informed my students beforehand about the possibility of seeing inner lights and hearing inner sounds.

Naturally, given the boring routine of secondary education, my students were intrigued. I informed them that I knew of an ancient yoga technique that would facilitate their inner voyages. I turned the lights off, instructed them briefly about closing their eyes gently and looking for sparks of light at the proverbial third eye. I told them that I would touch some students on the forehead lightly with my fingers. They meditated for some five minutes. I then proceeded to ask them about their experiences.

[Kirpal Singh invariably did such a process directly after his initiation ceremonies; he also kept a running tally of how many saw stars and so on-something which I have called the 'Kirpal Statistic'.]

To my amazement, since I felt that Kirpal Singh and others were actually transmitting spiritual power, the majority of my students reported seeing light. A few students even claimed to have visions of personages in the middle of the light. Others reported hearing subtle sounds and the like.

I repeated the experiment on four other classes that day. I have also in the past ten years conducted the same experiment on my college students (both undergraduate and graduate). The result, though differing in terms of absolute numbers, is remarkably the same. The majority see and hear something. It doesn't take a neuropsychologist or a sociologist trained in statistics to realize that Kirpal Singh and others were simply tapping into an already built reservoir of meditational possibilities.

What was unique about Kirpal's approach, at least in comparison with other Radhasoami gurus, was that he claimed to be the responsible agent, the medium through which such inner experiences can be transmitted. Kirpal's disciples generally did not question his grandiose claims, since many of them did indeed see and hear something during their meditation. What they, of course, did not fully appreciate was that almost anybody could have induced them to have inner experiences.

[I don't mean to suggest, though, that Kirpal Singh was not a good catalyst, but only that he was not unique and that his success at providing thousands with access to inner lights and sounds was not necessarily connected to his mastership.]

Religious devotees seem overly eager to give up responsibility for their own neurological happenings, believing instead that it takes a 'Master' to draw their attention 'within.' This may or may not be the case (and I am not implying that gurus don't have anything good to offer), but one thing is certain: Kirpal's claims, and others like his, cannot be divorced (as they often are in Sant Mat related groups ) from an initiates own cultural and psychological field of interplay.

It is that interplay, that acceptance as fact of a guru's method and the disciple's own inherent capacity-neurological or mystical-for inner experiences, which fuels the claims of would-be masters.

It seems wise to me, in light of Near-Death Experiences and the plethora of other meditation accounts, to inspect how we see and hear during our inner voyages of light and sound. Then we may be able to understand why such experiences can occur to almost anybody, anywhere, anytime. It may also help us contextualize and appraise the claims of gurus like Kirpal Singh, who insist on taking credit for their disciples' wondrous visions.

If, as I have suggested, that anybody can act as a conduit for such other-worldly experiences, then Kirpal and gurus like him should be judged on some other criteria, since their claims for uniqueness and exclusiveness are anything but unique and exclusive.

The 'Kirpal Statistic' is exactly that: the probable outcome that the majority of meditators, provided the necessary instructions in Shabd or Nad yoga practice, will see and hear something.''

The site map to this site has a wealth of links to information, that can help you talk to your love about what he was taught in a reasonable, academic, nuetral way.

I also found the writings of Faquir Chand helpful. He was an unusually honest guru, who was quite frank about any powers gurus claim to have. His writings also give glimpes into how different the culture of India is from from our own, and how that makes their understanding of many things different from the way we see things also.

I think it can be helpful for premies to see that they don't necessarily have to give up their 'experience', that the experience of enjoying and appreciating life and their breath can continue without the guru, because it was always their own experience anyway. Fakir Chand was very clear about that.

Hope this helps. Sounds like you've got yourself a fine man there. When I got involved with M., one of the biggest factors was the premies themselves. They were so secuctive, the ones with kind hearts. They aren't all perfect or anything, but I did find them often to be very kind and sweet. Your's sounds like one of those! Best Wishes to you both.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 04:50:30 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: another video
Message:
Hi Magnolia

If you enjoyed that video from amazon, may I recommend another?

It goes by the unlikely title of Aliens From Spaceship Earth, and is a cameo of hippie/cult life from the seventies, with ample extracts from premie festivals and interviews, narrated and with background music by Donovan. Click the title for a direct link to amazon.

If you're a reader, I can also recommend some books which may give you an insight into what it was all about.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:41:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: verbal obfuscation
Message:
The thing I had to do was pretend that there was really something going on between me and M. Now if I was your boyfriend and you wanted to strike a nerve with me, probably saying something like 'what you and me have is real; what you and Maharaji have is bullshit' might do the trick. But as long as you played into my little game that there was actually something real I shared with Maharaji, why, I could stonewall you forever.
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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 02:04:15 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: verbal obfuscation
Message:
Sounds like bullshit to me, Jerry.
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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 07:27:35 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Talking of bullshit....
Message:
Are you the same CD as runs this other forum?:-

Life's Great

Fuck me, talk about people who live in glass houses.....

At least we know where Stonor ended up, she's doin' a double-up on DavidJ and cosmic traveller over there. Thing is, with 2 blokes to attend to, how does she manage to take notes?

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:22:29 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: FYI
Message:
>Are you the same CD as runs this other forum?:-

I don't do much with it.

I did put up this page:
Premie Music

Take care,
CD

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:19:25 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: understanding experience
Message:
>i wanted to understand my boyfriend's experience

You won't by watching a few videos or reading and certainly not by the words on this forum.
Since 1971 is a long time.
You can imagine that many occurances over those years added to what your boyfriends 'experience' is.
Hopefully you will remain close and learn from what is different that each of you offers.

There is the old story of trying to explain the taste of a mango to someone who has never tasted one. It can't be done!
That is why experience is even more difficult to explain.
And when you attempt to explain it the result is usually unsatisfying which is why many people try to avoid the subject.
Damned if you do, Damned if you don't.

Good luck!
X

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:45:54 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: X
Subject: understanding experience
Message:
Sounds like bullshit to me, X.
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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:15:00 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Experiencing the taste of a mango, how original
Message:
God what is it with you premie apologists, if your experience is so unique why do you all end up parroting 'the' masters rather jackanory explanations.

It's pathetic.

And what makes you so 'certain' she won't understand from info here. From the charitable side I'd say there are any number, myself included who thoroughly enjoy/enjoyed the meditation, just the junkie like/infantile fixation on the guru we diss completely here.
That 'experience' is not unique cd.
Loads of people have it.

So since you're here, and I must say I won't be so polite if proof is found you were the person who sent those truly creepy/obnoxious posts to selene, do you believe only premies can have 'that' experience?

The one thing I will give you credit for when you posted as cd was your openess about your name, which makes this whole thing about x look decidely creepy, why do it unless you wanted to just be a faceless premie troll using invisible hit and run tactics.
Is that what the 'experience' has done for you?

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:48:44 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: simple
Message:
>God what is it with you premie apologists, if your experience is so unique why do you all end up parroting 'the' masters rather jackanory explanations.
It's pathetic.

Oh, a simple well known story that illustrates a point is pathetic. I see. I happen to agree with the bottom line of the mango story. I am sure the story is a very old one. Some things don't change.
I certainly have plenty of my own unique experiences. I've got 8 guitars to experiment with.

>And what makes you so 'certain' she won't understand from info here.

Have you ever visited a city that was totally different than your mental image picked up from reading and videos?

>So since you're here, and I must say I won't be so polite if proof is found you were the person who sent those truly creepy/obnoxious posts to selene, do you believe only premies can have 'that' experience?

Judging by your tone you might just be an expert at the obnoxious. Thanks for the welcome.

>why do it unless you wanted to just be a faceless premie troll

To be honest I have no idea at all who 'hamzen' is.
And I've never seen a picture of JH or eDrek posted anywhere.
Got a web site?

Regards,
CD

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 05:37:21 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: simple if you avoid answering questions, yeah
Message:

God what is it with you premie apologists, if your experience is so unique
why do you all end up parroting 'the' masters rather jackanory
explanations.
It's pathetic.

Oh, a simple well known story that illustrates a point is pathetic. I see. I
happen to agree with the bottom line of the mango story. I am sure the
story is a very old one. Some things don't change.
I certainly have plenty of my own unique experiences. I've got 8 guitars to
experiment with.
What was pathetic was that premies mimic like a parrot, thnk I could cope with premies better if they talked from their own experience, but even the use of mango is a direct copy of one of gm's speeches. Don't you get bored using the same examples over and over again. Why not orange juice, or sunshine, or wind, no it's got to be a mango, it makes you all look like you're faking it. Same as a musician with 8 guitars who just copies other peoples solos.

>And what makes you so 'certain' she won't understand from info here.

Have you ever visited a city that was totally different than your mental
image picked up from reading and videos?

Of course, but you haven't answered why you're so certain SHE won't pick up the truth about her boyfriends involvement, how do you know what her boyfriends experience is, you don't, you're assuming without proof.

>So since you're here, and I must say I won't be so polite if proof is found
you were the person who sent those truly creepy/obnoxious posts to
selene, do you believe only premies can have 'that' experience?

Judging by your tone you might just be an expert at the obnoxious.
Thanks for the welcome.

Those posts to selene were truly obnoxious, don't make light of it.
Also cd, you come here, peddling the usual garbage, changing your identity, when you might well have been the person who wrote those obnoxious posts,
so do you believe only premies can have 'that' experience?

>why do it unless you wanted to just be a faceless premie troll

To be honest I have no idea at all who 'hamzen' is.
And I've never seen a picture of JH or eDrek posted anywhere.
Got a web site?

Mike Cobb, english premie, 74-90, stated it many times, so how about answering the question, or are we off on answering a question with another question, not answering and then disappearing for a while? Is this the way you normally communicate with people?

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 02:56:58 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: simple
Message:
Cut the bullshit, CD. All Knowledge is, is focusing on your breath. Why can't magnolia's boyfriend just tell her that? Why can't YOU just tell her that instead of all this obfuscation (perfect word for it) about mangos? This way all she has to do is focus on her breath, herself, and see if there's really such a big deal to it or not.

You're a windbag of mumbo jumbo, CD, for as long as you talk like that. There's no reason for it, none at all. It's just a smokescreen to prevent people from seeing what Knowledge is really all about, which is focusing on the breath, and experiencing whatever that brings. For all your talk about you can't tell somebody what a mango is, that's exactly what you do.

Hate to say it, but I've just got to. You're an asshole.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 21:20:58 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: simple
Message:
>Cut the bullshit, CD. All Knowledge is, is focusing on your breath.

You're exactly right. That is what you understand.

The whole thing about breath and attaining an experience of quiet has much more to it. Otherwise it would be something no one would have much interest in.
Many things are trivialized out of ignorance.
Some people also think music is a waste of time.

>Hate to say it, but I've just got to. You're an asshole.

Yeah, that has the impact of your other short sighted comments.
As long as you are just on the Internet you're not a nuisance.
What have you got going for yourself that is so great?
Why the animosity?

CD

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 00:49:03 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: simple
Message:
CD,

You've added a mystique to Knowledge that places it above all it really is. It's focusing on the breath. That's what you do when you meditate, isn't it? So, that's what it must be. Duh. If you want to make it more than that, and consider me ignorant because I don't, go ahead. But that's all it is.

The animosity lies in all the hooey that surrounds Knowledge. Magnolia isn't the first person to be stonewalled by obfuscation when she asks about it. To reply that you can't know a mango until you've tasted one is not an answer. Why not cut to the chase? Just tell her what the techniques are and let her see if she likes them or not?

Why is that so taboo?

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 02:41:17 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: simple
Message:
>Why not cut to the chase? Just tell her what the techniques are and let her see if she likes them or not?

She can read about them herself.
But the techniques are not it.
No more than some guitar techniques give you the experience of feeling a good song come out.

>The animosity lies in all the hooey that surrounds Knowledge.

Ever read any Napolean Hill?
He was a character.
Also had ideas that understanding came from more than thinking.
He wrote quite a few books but you never really know what he was talking about even after you have read several of them.
Doesn't mean he wasn't right.
Some stuff has to be experienced.

There have been times when I had a feeling and awareness about things and my existence on this planet that were abouve the average sort of feelings.
There were quite a few times when Maharaji reminded me that the feeling of life was important. Sounds trite but I had a personal experience that validated the advice. And for some reason I did need to be reminded. So I was glad that I was reminded.
Yes, I know that it is common for people to wake in their bed and find themselves in a state of fear or disbelief that they are alive and also that they are going to die. And they don't have 'knowledge'.
Many people are carrying on with their lives and engrossed in the daily affairs and games of politics and money and really have lost site of the subtle feelings and understanding. Usually they go on a vacation to a beautiful place and are reminded. Then it is back to the daily grind and those feelings are once again hidden and soon forgotten.
A good earthquake or heart attack jolts the memory and reminds us of our true situation in this life and the universe.
People often change their ways for a while after those events. Sometimes the change lasts for the rest of their lives.
Those sorts of feelings are real knowledge. And, by the way, we are made of atomic energy!

CD

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:14:58 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: simple
Message:
CD,

I don't care about Napoleon Hill or your other obfuscations about Maharaji's little reminders which are so important to you. All I'm saying is when somebody inquires about Knowledge, they should be instructed in the four techniques, not told about mangos. If Knowledge is an experience, the method for arriving at that experience is through the techniques.

The problem with that is Maharaji's edict that we all vow never to reveal Knowledge under any circumstances, so what are we left with? We keep telling people to go to more videos; we tell them about mangos, and menus that aren't the meal, and a picture of the sun vs. the real one, and so on, and blah, blah, blah. It's ridiculous, and you know it. You just don't have the guts to admit it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 06:15:18 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: breath worshipping
Message:
hello-

i have on occasion called my premie boyfriend a 'breath worshipper' just to tease him. i have also suggested worshipping the heartbeat instead, or the brain waves, or just the vibrational force of the universe. it's apples and oranges to me, since all of them are pretty damn necessary for life. vibrational force is my favorite, since it can be so wonderfully connected to the female orgasm and most sex toys. i mean, that's something a woman can understand!

magnolia

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 21:27:27 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: breath worshipping
Message:
>i have on occasion called my premie boyfriend a 'breath worshipper' just to tease him.

That is quite different from the headspace that Jerry is in where he is filled with animosity.

Does your boyfriend hate ex-premies and make derogatory comments on them because they see things different from his experience?

CD

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:38:39 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: no haters here!
Message:
hi-

my man doesn't hate ex-premies, and i don't hate premies. we're all peaceful here most of the time, but when pms hits me i love to ask him a few pertinent questions regarding the guru business. that way, i can always blame the argument on my raging hormones!

i'd love to hear that he spent a sunday without going to a video, but i'm a pretty patient woman. he did admit last week that the presentation is pretty dry these days, and he wondered how those sterile videos would help propagation of knowledge. i considered that a small victory.

making love not war,
magnolia

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 17:24:05 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: magnolia
Subject: re. the 'irrational hogwash' question...
Message:
Sorry, I don't know what 'BR' stands for (apart from British Rail) but I'd like to add one small observation to this interesting thread, if I may?

Magnolia, your original question regarding whether all premies speak irrational hogwash... Well, not only has that been answered but CD here has given you a real-life working demonstration.

I think the reason no premie will admit K is just a simple of case of focusing on the breath (or even what you feel from focusing on the breath as Jerry rephrased the question) is because this is a devotional cult. 'Focusing on the breath' as be-all and end-all prescription excludes the necessity for Maharaji. Yet they cannot exclude Maharaji because their bond is an emotional one. To sustain an emotional bond against your better judgement frequently - no, always - requires that you become irrational.

Does your boyfriend ever criticise Maharaji - I mean, even mildy?
is it rational to see a person - any person - as beyond criticism?

CD will never find fault with Maharaji - not even if you showed him action-replay footage of M switching drivers after killing a cyclist (to avoid the inconvenience of facing his moral and legal obligations). CD would mutter something about mangos and guitars, then shrug that happy shrug and all would be well in his universe.

People in love are blind to their loved-ones' weaknesses and failings. 'Knowledge' may include a few mind-calming, inner-focus techniques such as breath watching, but in essence is no more than a bog-standard devotional cult.
All best,
Nige


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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 18:32:47 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: premies believe the lotus feet don't stink
Message:
nigel-

your question was actually my pms-filled complaint of the week. this is how i chose to challenge my guru-obsessed beau:

-why is it that i, your truelove, am subject to criticism while this indian, whom you don't even know personally, seems entirely above criticism? (now, i must admit here that my love is generally a saint, and rarely finds fault with me, but this was a valid argument and i ran with it) however, after many minutes of basic premie response which included some sort of 'lotus feet are greater than god 'logic, we cracked open a couple of hard ciders and sat in the sun instead.

this part of his brain embarrasses me, but the rest of my man is just so adorable.

magnolia

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:15:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: Magnolia, you've got a good man there
Message:
and you won't have to wait long before he drops the gooroo crap. The foot fetish party's over. Most of the premies I still know are the sweetest and most lovable people I know. I wish you both the best of everything that life has to offer.
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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 02:06:15 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: no haters here!
Message:
>my man doesn't hate ex-premies, and i don't hate premies.

You're alright Magnolia!

BR ring a bell?

CD

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 13:10:39 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: BR? help me out, please
Message:
hello again-

does BR ring a bell, you ask? i'm so sorry, but nothing comes to mind. you are referring to a person, i'm assuming?

magnolia

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 01:13:52 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: OK
Message:
>does BR ring a bell, you ask? i'm so sorry, but nothing comes to mind. you are referring to a person, i'm assuming?

If BR doesn't ring a bell, that is a fine answer.
Just a guess on my part.

You like your boyfriend but you don't get the premie thing.
Probably best to stick with what you like and let your boyfriend keep his premie thing as long as he doesn't impose it on you.
The premie think is definitely not a bad thing for many people.
Your boyfriend is an example of a premie who is not 'damaged'.

My girlfriend is also not a premie.
She knows that there are more important things than thinking since she has the experience of working as a nurse with people 'cirling the drain' as she calls it.
She does like the premie music. And also Traveling Wilburys and the Gypsy Kings. I am just recently getting her used to the Grateful Dead.
We went and saw a couple members from the Kinks perform last night. They did one really nice song that had a lot of sitar sound in it.

Cheers,
CD

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 12:26:01 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: OK
Message:
hello cd

thanks for your nice post.
i still can't quite stomach the premie music i've heard. in return, i don't play so much reverend horton heat, the cramps, ramones, etc while traveling with my boyfriend. but we both sure love the grateful dead!

magnolia

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 22:07:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: breath worshipping
Message:
Does your boyfriend hate ex-premies and make derogatory comments on them because they see things different from his experience?

You mean like Marolyn, Maharaji's wife, calling people who don't practise Knowledge 'assholes'? Is that what you're talking about?

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:40:08 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: The Experience
Message:
Hi, Magnolia. As others have said below, the premie in full-blown cultspeak is indeed difficult to have any semblance of a discussion with. Yes, I remember thinking, when arguing about the Guru with my father, for example, 'He just doesn't get it. Unless you have this Knowledge, you just can't understand it.'

Below are given some good suggestions for unhypnotizing your boyfriend. Another: somehow get him to entertain the hypothesis that the Experience comes from within, or from God, or something...but not from Maharaji. This would be easier if he were to consider the possibility that what some of his former associates (like M. Dettmers) have to say about him is true.

There is an experience...whether it's meditation, bike racing, music, sex or nature. Bliss is real and groovy. You can't argue against the experience. But the emotional connection to a guru who is not really a guru in the sense of being someone who can truly give you guidance...that's the problem, as I'm sure you realize.

Good luck.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:01:01 (GMT)
From: MARK
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: verbal obfuscation
Message:
GLAD YOU FOLLOWED MY SUGGESTION AND ORDERED THE TAPE.

It hopefully can allow you and your Beau to see what's really going on.The next step might be to have the Mr over and watch the tape together.

Pause it and use it as a basis for comparison. Its a longshot,but if he pops you will be his true love for a long time.

Mark

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:19:11 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: MARK
Subject: not my idea of a romantic evening
Message:
mark-

i do plan to pass the tape on to my man eventually, but i think that he can watch it by himself, along with those boring 'the moment called now'-type tapes from the video library.

classics like 'she-devils on wheels' and 'beneath the valley of the ultra-vixens' seem to make for better late-night dates.

an orgasm can create a lot of light, music and nectar.

magnolia

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 22:23:56 (GMT)
From: mark
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: 'Beneath the Valley of the Ultra-Vixens'
Message:
Thanks for the movie suggestions.Sounds like YOU've seen through what you needed to see through re mr. Rawat.As far as Mr Wonderful,time will tell. But as an professional devotee yourself ,you understand the drill. The conditioning is consistent,though the names change. . .

Your orgasm description took me back,circa 1973,to when I was one of the original premie counselors at the Shri Hans Humanitarian Services clinic ( a converted 3 br apt) on Manhattan's West side.
A guy came in for counseling,feeling guilty cause when he masturbated he often experienced light,music and nectar. He was confused; basically cause a 'wrong' thing was giving him a 'magic' or 'divine' experience that he felt was under the auspices of the Guru and his Grace.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:49:40 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: Magnolia, now that's my favorite kind of bliss
Message:
You said: ''...an orgasm can create a lot of light, music and nectar.'' Amen!

Gregg's line of reasoning is good too. Your boyfriend needs to see that ''the feeling'' is in him not from the gooroo. And the feeling of ''gratitude'' does not have to be directed to the gooroo either.

It's a natural feeling of being glad to be alive and does not have to be expressed by sending checks to the gooroo or hanging on his every word.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:49:30 (GMT)
From: dj cuttlefish
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: Very sensible
Message:
Think premie, think upper class junkie, in denial it's just a fix.

Suspect the easiest response is just to slip in odd comments such as,

'I'm puzzled as to why gm would...
be an alcoholic,
try and get off with so many blonde females
have to live in SUCH luxury
cover up for paedophiliac instructors
be so into drugs
has been such a failure in getting his message across to the general population, surely as more people realized 'it', word would spread
..........

if he's the master of such an amazing experience, and so self realized.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:59:45 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: It scared me magnolia
Message:
hi magnolia

my answer is 'Yes.' But I recognised what you describe in premie friends who stayed with us, when got back from seeing Captain Rawat in Paris a few months ago. They were in a wierd space that I recognised. Premies call it being 'blissed out'. They are in a mild trance, disconnected from their reason and rational judgement.

Talking to someone in this state is very uncomfortable. Their sentences and thoughts are totally disconnected. Nothing matters except that wonderful feeling they are having. It's all just words. You can say what you like. It doesn't matter because the important thing is the 'experience'. That feeling makes them grin and talk like their IQ keeps plummeting to their shoe size. To see this happen to an intelligent person is scary. Seeing it happen to people I am close to made me change gear in my opposition to the cult. It is not a healthy organisation.

You could try printing out Michael Dettmers' posts on EPO. Give them to your boyfriend and ask his opinion. I saved an old friend of mine about $50 a month for life doing this. That was just his standing order, and didn't include festivals, entrance to see pre-recorded videos broadcast 'live' by satellite, money pumped out at fund raising meetings, and money spent on trash, kitch, merchandise.

Amen for the Internet.

Anth(nobody else would publish me).

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 20:12:16 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yes, Magnolia
Message:
I spent years rationalizing Capt Rawat and making excuses for him because of that blissed out feeling that Anth describes.

Study the Indian background in the links here and tell your boyfriend that Knowledge is so common that it is given by 30 other Radhasoami gurus.

Capt Rawat simply happens to be the most greedy and financially successful of the Radhasoami cult gurus. He is the Billy Graham of charismatic evangelical revivalist yoga.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:33:53 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: easy answer...YES
Message:
Yes, I was confronted as a premie by family who loved me, friends and teachers who cared and were concerned, and yes, I answered just as you describe. I cannot attest to how logical I was then in the rest of my life, I was a very young premie, but I can attest to subjecting the people who really loved me to the very avoidance you describe.

Once again I am going to pitch a great book 'Releasing the Bonds' by Steve Hassan. The entire book is devoted to how to help someone you love out of a cult, and it may help you understand the dynamic of cult think and getting out better.

Good luck, I do not envy you having to face this with someone you love.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:32:07 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: verbal obfuscation
Message:
Magnolia,

I wish someone had confronted me like you are doing with your boyfriend - it might have snapped me out earlier. Unfortunately, before I found this site, there was nowhere to debate these issues, and no inside info about M was available. The few times I spoke about K or M to non-premies over the last few years the other person avoided any debate and generally changed the sublect.

I'm sure you have realised this from reading this site, but you know your boyfriend will always believe he loves Maharaji more than he loves you. If you can get him to admit it, he might even say that what he feels for you is not real love compared to 'That Love' inside. Because it's certainly what I would have said:-(

Good Luck,

John.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 08:21:15 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Magnolia
Subject: He's lucky
Message:
to have you to argue with! Yes, the experience is irrefutable but the Rugu (the one who leads you from light into darkness) is supremely refutable. Hang in there. Your friend may yet be able to disconnect the experience, which is a result of his own effort, from the charlatan who profits from 'revealing' it.
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 13:41:49 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Why do you post on the forum?
Message:
Hi,

I've been exchanging emails with someone for a while, who is in the process of leaving the cult.

This morning I was asked why I post on the forum. I also got an email from someone saying, in my Journey, I was all nice and reasonable, but now I seem to be making personal attacks on Captain Rawat, and it's all become a bit nasty.

Anyway, because of reasons explained clearly at the start of my reply, I'm putting my answer here. It sort of answers the second question too.

I was asked why I posted and about the serousness of my answers.

I'm a writer. I love to see my words and my name in print. I love it when people respond to my writing. I love it when people mention things I've written in their writing. I can’t help it. It’s a feeling I have deep inside. It doesn’t fit into words very well. It’s an experience.

When I realised I was in a cult, like the Moonies or Hare Krishnas, I wanted to get out fast. Getting out doesn't take much physical effort. You stop going to crap videos. You cancel your standing order. You go on holidays with your family instead of going to see Captain Rawat. All these little changes benefit you in all sorts of ways- not the least financially.

But there is another side to leaving, which is sorting it all out in your head. This takes longer. I don’t think it’s a difficult process, except at the beginning, when everything goes up in the air. It seems to happen quite naturally, and, most people seem to go through similar types of stuff. But it takes time. Initially, there’s fear, confusion and apprehension, as you climb over the wall.

Maybe people who have escaped already meet you in the woods and anwer your questions. The first big fear is soon dispelled. They don’t come after you, because the guards are prisoners too. They don’t have any influence in the world outside. The only people you find in the world outside, connected to prison, are fellow escapees.

Once I’d calmed down, I realised I’d got a head full of beliefs that I thought were fact. “Knowledge is an experience of God within”. “There is such a thing as a Perfect Master”. “I have to suspend my belief and discrimination when it comes to Captain Rawat” etc. Writing on the forum, and reading it, has been an immense help in sorting out these ideas. It has allowed me to start throwing bathloads of babies out the window. (It’s OK they’re plastic). This has been a strong reason for my posting. It helps to sort my feeling out about this stuff. Although there’s a lot of rowdiness goes on, it’s a great place to have your old cult ideas challenged, and I’m grateful to some people here for helping me get a handle on stuff I didn’t realise was there.

I excused Captain Rawat his strange excesses for a couple of years after I quit the cult. I forgave him because I saw him as a victim, who’d been groomed for his position since childhood. A sort of New-Age Michael Jackson character. But that’s patronising him. He is responsible for his life, as much as anyone else. He needs to be called to account. He is not the Lord of the Universe. Nobody in the cult tells him this. So it’s in his own interest if we tell him.

This brings me to my third reason for posting on the forum. The most powerful weapon against “Exploitation by Cult”, is information. It’s beautiful. All you have to do is tell the truth and the cult comes tumbling down. Once people find out what‘s been going on, “Satyuga,” soon becomes “Ratyuga”.

I post for fun, and I post seriously. I’ve been lucky enough to meet a few of people who post here, and there are some great characters. So I get an extra buzz from interacting with people who I’ve met. There are also people who post who I’m getting to know and want to meet. So I know there are seeds of genuine relationships sown here. Also some people I know from the cult days. So it’s nice to interact with them on the forum too. It really makes a difference.

So I have a personal involvement here, like I do on my old school forum, where I chat with guys I knew 40 years ago. (It’s a graveyard compared to Forum 5. It takes months to have a conversation.)

I sometimes get involved in humourous banter. I’ve even been chased around the Forum by a Fat South African Fag, who wants to tickle the hair on my tummy with the handle of his bullwhip, and make me call him “Thelma.”

But there is a serious side too. A year and a half ago, I got in touch with two of Jagdeo’s victims, and a campaign to bring him to justice started here on the forum. This is very serious and the forum has been the only place where we have been able to present our case against him. It has also been the only place where we can document how the cult has handled his crimes. All we do is publish their own words, then watch them choke. I believe several cult members have resigned from the press office because of the continually deceptive responses they’ve been told to make.

Since the matter came into the open, further revelations appear with amazing regularity. Each one painting the cult and Captain Rawat in a worse light. The forum and its associated sites, are the focus for opposition, not only to the cult’s protection and sponsorship of a paedophile, who was eventually punished by having his area of molestion limited to the Asian communities in the Far East, but also to the rest of the unhealthy bullshit associated with the Captain and his scam.

Cults are harmful, negative, unhealthy, secretive organisations. Watching one crumble to the ground because of information alone, is a wonderfully fulfilling activity, and gives me something to do on long winter nights in Utrecht.

Anth the forum junkie.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:17:53 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: yeah, well it's about bloody time
Message:
you get banned for talking so much, you pommy bastared that is living somewhere else. So there you go, delete my post if you got the balls you winnee pommy curry fried chip eater. You can not even stop your wife running away with your lawyer, and your lecturing us about that poofta rawat, you imperalist pom.
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 22:04:44 (GMT)
From: dj cuttlefish
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Good question
Message:
(1) Tend to attack arrogant authority figures, especially abusive ones seriously taking the piss, and because he's historically my closest experience of etc etc

(2) Because I'm REALLY angry with myself for being so historically naive about the techniques and at least half taking his word for it all, ie as a possibility.

(3) Because I'm really angry at my bad faith for switching off from the bits I KNEW were naff, jesus I first started seeing him as abusive 15 years before I walked, and I was never even into him.

(4) Because I wasted so much time around premie wankers who were obviously bogus and I put up with it for way too long, and new agers after I left, ie challenge bogus thinking. I should add that some premies ~I didn't see as bogus back then.

(5) As a way of challenging that concept that hippy niceness is ok and pretty innoffensive really, which I think is bollox.

(6) Because he's still getting away with it, which I find outrageous.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:00:23 (GMT)
From: Roy
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Why do you post on the forum?
Message:
Thanks for this update Anth-
your posts have been a clarion call to reason, good taste,and integrity, all the while soothingly massaging my funny bone.
PS.
I sent you the 19.95 for the ex premie.org hate kit some time ago- I've yet to receive my:
* chubby doll w/ 278 suits
* pretend poison w/ fake bacon sandwhich
* plastic plane w/ matches
* toy mercedes 600 w/ aerosole can
( and directions on how not to use w/out supervision of a fire marshall.)( yes- this is only a joke)

should I send another check? in case the first one went missing?

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:30:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Roy
Subject: What's your credit card number Roy?
Message:
Sorry Roy, you got the decimal point in the wrong place. Your kit is being held in storage and the $19.95 has been used towards the storage costs. It should bave been $199.50

Anth the Capitalist for a Higher Cause

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 21:40:31 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: AJW
Subject: and you sent your check to the wrong person!
Message:
Send it to me!!!
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:18:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth: Ditto, Amen and Hallelujah NT
Message:
f
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 15:00:52 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Why not add this to your journey?
Message:
Seriously Anth - it's a great description of your first two years after leaving the cult, and as your journey has been rightly praised, and often read, this post also deserves regular exposure.

If you send it to Brian I'm sure he'll be happy to add it.

John.

PS See you in 4 weeks!

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:42:28 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Why not add this to your journey?
Message:
Hi John,

I've been thinking about writing an addendum to my 'Journey' for a while.

Somebody once wrote the stages that you go through when you leave a cult. I'd like to have a look at how far down the list I am, because I've definitely reached the 'Angry' stage.

I'll use this post as a starting point to another chapter.

Anth drip drip drip splash glug pop kerpow

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:12:49 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: All
Subject: Why I post too, and you should too, esp. PAMS
Message:
Thanks, Anth, for another verbal tour de force. I had been contemplating starting a thread like this -- they appear occasionally -- but I am so glad that you did it because your sentiments were so artfully and compellingly stated. It should be no secret to any regular visitor to this forum that you and I (with the support -- er, I think and hope, of our respective spouses) have become fast friends. It is our friendship, and the friendships with others which have flourished outside these confines, which encourages me to return here most every day.

I posted my journey in April, 1999, within weeks of finding this site. Similar to Anth, my journey contains mild criticisms of the cult and MJ, but when I found this site, I thought the whole trip was rather benign. After spending a number of months reading the site, posting here and on Anything Goes, my assessment of the cult changed. I thought that I had put all my emotional trauma behind me when I left in 1976 at the age of 20. I thought I had sorted through what this chapter in my life meant long ago. As I read the information posted here, I realized I was wrong.

I too became friends with Abi and Susan. I was, and continue to be, horrified by Jagdeo's serial, worldwide child molestations, carried out under the protective banner of Captain Rawat (that's his name from now on for me too, Anth), and the corporate umbrella of DLM/EV. What is most outrageous to me is that EV publicly posted the FAQ's in which it denies corporate or individual knowledge (and responsibility) for Jagdeo's child abuse, when we know that Susan informed them of this activity decades ago. So, my involvement is partly fueled by the fury at the wrong I know has been done to Susan and Abi, and others, I must suspect.

I also post here because of the similarities I see between the behavior of Jim Jones and Maharaji, and because there are genuine similarities in the manner in which Peoples Temple was run and the way in which DLM/EV is run. Premies like to think they aren't in a cult. Since Peoples Temple is the worst example of cult behavior, it is important to tell people that the group in which they find themselves mirrors all the worst aspects of Peoples Temple. Put your head in the sand when you read this, or allow it to fuel your doubts.

Lastly, I believe PAMS have a special obligation to post here and disclose the information they have which exposes Captain Rawat and his cult for exactly what it is. Those of you who were close to Captain Rawat may feel uneasy and think you are betraying him by posting here. Think of this another way -- the people you are really betraying are the premies, those who are in no position to honestly judge the situation in which they are involved, because they do not have all the facts. They are the people to whom you owe allegiance, because theirs are the lives which can be changed by your posts. You never know who you are going to reach here, but given the repercussions of Michael Dettmers' posts, I'd say you have an opportunity to undo some of the damage done by the cult. You will be the better for it, and so will we.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:27:07 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: \
To: Marianne
Subject: Reasons to post part 3
Message:
Cogent and compelling Marianne, and Anth. I sometimes wonder about the Forum and it's uses. Are we dragging on something that is, for me, so easy to forget? Can't we just move on and leave those current premies to their own choice? Maybe it's not as sinister as some other ones, people are free to leave. Etc Etc.

But Anth and your posts are very convincing in their exposition of the efficacy of this information station.
PLUS it's a bit of Fun.

Can't wait for Latvian festivities.

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 05:03:47 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Reasons to post part 3
Message:
Hi Tim G,
When the Latvian party carnage begins, maybe one of you can bring along an internet *on* laptop so we can be with you all live here on the forum.
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:23:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: The victors write the history
Message:
We are making sure that Capt Rawat (thanks Anth) does not rewrite it.
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 12:52:04 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Everyone
Subject: Setting up Mythological Masters
Message:
Just in the middle of reading Carlos Castenada's last book, a personal account of his years with the Sorcerer Don Juan. [It has been said that these books were fiction not fact..no matter]. This quote from the Yakui Indian Don Juan leapt of the page and shouted to me.
'Don't admire people from afar' he said. 'That is the surest way to create mythological beings. Get close to your professor, talk to him, see what he's like as a man. Test him. If your professor's behavior is the result of his conviction that he is a being who is going to die, then everything he does, no matter how strange, must be premeditated and final.If what he says turns out to be JUST WORDS, HE'S NOT WORTH A HOOT.

Any Resonances?

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:31:43 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Setting up Materialistic Masters
Message:
Hi Tim.

I'm currently reading Ram Dass' new book about conscious aging and dying, Still Here. (I'm not quite there yet, but it doesn't hurt to be prepared!) Though RD is pretty steeped in the Hindu tradition, he's distilled a lot of truth from it into his own wisdom and is quite enjoyable to read.

Anyhow, he had a guru who's also named Maharajji, but he was a renunciate who sat on a wooden bench with a blanket and single bowl as his possessions. What a difference from you-know-who who had a whole warehouse complex of round-the-clock slaves devoted to refurbishing his jetliner with gold toilet seats!

By their actions ye shall know them, right?

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 17:30:49 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: timgitti@indigo.ie
To: Joy
Subject: Setting up Materialistic Masters
Message:
Hi Joy
Good to hear you are still here [much better than there any day]
I heard that poor RD had had a stroke and could only say 3 words [OM Mane Padme, maybe, without the Hum]. But maybe that's all Bull..
I think I would find anything resembling Hinduism a bit too reminiscent of Balyogeshwar [alias Mr. Rawat]. But back in those Good[?] Ole Transcendental Days I remember RD's book 'Be Here Now'...ah maybe THOSE are the 3 words. It was inspiring and I wish Ram Dass all the best. Unlike the other fella who needs to wake up from the wake up.
The very best of Celtic geetings to you
Love,Tim
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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 19:56:03 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Ram Dass = U R Not Your Body
Message:
Greetings, Tim.

Yes, RD did have a stroke, but I don't know about the three words. He talks about the stroke at length in the book, so he must be somewhat rehabilitated though he does say he's in a wheelchair. BE HERE NOW is sort of the gist of it. You are not your body, and all that. But that's a damned hard way to have to learn that lesson! Better take my blood pressure medication . . .

I was in San Francisco when this happened about 10 years ago, and I remember hearing on the alternative radio a request for people to go up to his house and put in shifts to help him round-the-clock. Which is great, but RD is somewhat of a counter-culture celebrity. What about ordinary folks who can't have teams of adoring strangers looking after them continuously? I wonder if RD would have been quite so magnanimous about it all if he'd had to lay in a sterile hospital bed and be attended to by lackadaisical nurses. But I shouldn't be so hard on him, he actually does have a lot of good insights into the ageing/illness process.

How did I get onto this subject? Hope it's not relevant to you at the moment, any rate,

Love,
Joy
(Here, There and Everywhere)

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 03:34:17 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Ram Dass ''Be Here Now'' changed my life
Message:
But, if we are not our bodies, what are we?

Pat, the atheistic Anglican old fogey armchair yogi.

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:03:15 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Ram Dass' Theory/Let the Mystery Be
Message:
Hi Patrick (and Chuck).

According to Ram Dass, we are Pure Awareness, which takes on and discards bodies one after the other in the quest towards enlightenment (your basic Hindu/Buddhist theory of reincarnation). I don't know if I buy the reincarnation theory myself. In reality nobody knows.

I love this song by Iris Dement, 'Let the Mystery Be':

'Everybody is wonderin' what and where they all came from
Everybody is worryin' bout where they're gonna go
When the whole thing's done
But no one knows for certain
And so it's all the same to me
I think I'll just let the mystery be.'

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:42:42 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Right on! Love Iris and know that song ;-) n/t
Message:
rawwww fattt
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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:08:32 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Sweet Mystery of Life
Message:
is more suitable a song for an old fogey like me.
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 18:19:07 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Tim G
Subject: Imagine only 3 words !!
Message:
With any luck mine would be :

Feck
Drink
Arse !

although they are most probably going to be of no use at all

aadvark
paternal
lamp

I remember Arthur (Dudley Moore)saying that 'Most people dont live in the Here and Now - they live in the There and Then.

I live in the Here and There, Now and Then !'

Good luck to baba ram dass. I saw him interviewed by Bernard Levin on the BBC in 1980 - and at 18 left home and went in search of a Guru......

Ho Hum...... therein hangs a tale.

Loaf

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:13:52 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: Imagine only 3 words !!
Message:
I must say that aadvark,paternal and lamp would make for a more exciting if confusing 'autumn of life'.
I remember in Sam Beckett's 'Watt' one of the characters only being able to communicate by a bang on the head.
1 for Yes
2 for No
3 for Money

Ho Hum indeed
Greetings
Tim

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 05:30:16 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Indian youth leave tradition, embrace west's ideas
Message:
Billy Graham Jr Mobbed at Delhi Airport

Yesterday Rev Billy Graham Jr, the son of famous evangelist Rev Graham Sr, was mobbed when he arrived in New Delhi. Surrounded by adoring members of his Divine Word Ministry, he made his way to an awaiting limosine to be whisked away.

''I have come to spread the Divine Word of God,'' he said in the lobby of the luxurious Marriotts hotel; ''My father gave me my marching orders to come to India and spread the good news.''

Pundit Charanmrit said: ''This is a manifestation of how low our youth have fallen in the worship of anything Western. They will follow any American or Christian just because it is different from our traditonal Hindu ways.''

Rev Graham said; ''I have come to unite Hindu and Muslim and Sikh in one garland of Christian love.''

Swami Baragon Ji said: ''Our youth have fallen under the spell of television and television evangelists and are ignoring the sacred duties to family and caste in a mad rush to embrace instant gratification at the hands of religious charlatans from the West.''

G. Prasad, Minister of Education in the state of Uttar Pradesh, said: ''Indian youth today are highly educated and are fed up with all the swamis and pundits and gurus who promise them salvation if the follow the dharmas and read the Vedas and visit the holy places. But my feeling is that they have been hoodwinkled by Christians into thinking that they will be saved in one lifetime instead of the many lifetimes that are traditional in India. They think that by becoming Christian they will go directly to heaven and not be reborn. I blame television and the internet for poisoning the best minds of our youth.''

Okay so that didn't really happen but I wrote it to illustrate what happened to us. The guru business in India is not dissimilar to our charismatic revivalists. Educated people do not usually follow gurus. Gurus are for the masses just as the televangelists are for our hoi-polloi.

At one time over twenty thousand (ten in Europe and ten in USA) of the best minds of our generation were suckered by the Rev Rawat. Most of them left. Many of them are here. The remaining PWKs are not the best and brightest or, if they are, they have climbed the Elan Vital ladder and have such positions of respectability that they are hooked on their social status within the PWK pecking order.

The guru is doing the job his father did and doing it quite well - bringing evangelical revivalist yoga to the masses. It's just not for us eggheads here. I wish I'd known all this 30 years ago.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 06:27:06 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: They should have burned all the books
Message:
Like Hitler tried to do, in an attempt to bury the past and rewrite history.

Fortunately, present-day Elan Vital haven't (yet) stooped this low, despite their laughable attempt to reinvent the origins of the cult.

Our view of life in DLM in the early to late seventies is obviously dimmed by age and largely subjective - we were up to our necks in devotion to the Lord - so recollections are sketchy at best.

Recently I've been acquiring books about DLM and cults in general, written at the time and they make for fascinating reading. I'll put up a few short extracts over the next few days.

Here's one for starters:


'Guru Maharaji Ji, like his brothers, was treated like a divine being by the many Mahatmas and premies who served his father in the ashram. Thus, he received the attention and affection of his father's devotees, who happily responded to his every wish. Luxury and service were his birthright and later became his personal lifestyle when he was elevated to his father's position as Perfect Master at the age of eight.'

Sacred Journeys: The Conversion of Young Americans to Divine Light Mission
James V. Downton, Jr., Columbia University Press, 1979

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:36:08 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: They should have burned all the books
Message:
'Fortunately, present-day Elan Vital haven't (yet) stooped this low, despite their laughable attempt to reinvent the origins of the cult.'

I remember some time in the early 80s I was told that I had to get rid of the 'old' videos aand old magazines.
Fortunately, I was unable to part from them.

These have been proved valuable on a couple of occassions when aspirants I have met have been told that all that Ibdian stuff didn't happen.
I just show them satguru has come.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 04:36:37 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: I'd forgotten about that
Message:
Thanks for the reminder Jethro - I remember thinking at the time how weird it was that we were told to turn in all the old stuff - I know a few rebels who didnt and have it hidden under their bed still;)

I also remember to my shame, thinking that I shouldnt argue with it because M' knew best and it was all part of his play.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 11:45:43 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: This ishow I got arount it.
Message:
'- I remember thinking at the time how weird it was that we were told to turn in all the old stuff -'

I used to make a big separation between EV/DLM and man himself. AS a devotee I was convinced that ev/dlm was NOT the same as 'Maharaji'. So, I refused to believe that it was 'His' wish to destroy the tpaea/videos. I told myself it was the dlm/ev 'mind' telling me these things.

Jethro

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:53:38 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: They are burning all the books
Message:
About a year ago I donated all my videos to the local church-ladies' library. The chief church-lady (who does ''participation'' in EV as a censor of videos) kept them for over 6 months in order to check them and see if they were still kosher and were not on the ''recall list.''

Out of 100 videos she chose 3 for the library. I gave the rest to another PWK a week before I posted here.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:04:48 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Bazza
Subject: I Hope You Don't Mind Me Joining Your Party
Message:
From 'Soul Rush' by Sophia Collier. I found it at the library but the relevant chapters are also on this site. It's hard to put down.

One thing that amused me and many of the Western premies was the Indian fascination with systems of numeration. I have heard mahatmas expound with great authority on: The Nine Grievous Errors, The Four Graces, The Eight Million Four Hundred Thousand Forms of Living Things, The Sixty-Four Powers of the Guru, and the Five Manifestations of the Satguru. This last one was a particularly potent and popular idea. And, as far as I can tell, it is one of the few bits of original cosmology developed by DLM in India.
Most of the mahatmas were of the opinion that not only was Maharaj Ji divine himself, but so were the four other members of his family. I think it was Mata, Guru Maharaj Ji's mother, who came up with this idea and then spread it around. In this scheme, Mata embodied the compassionate characteristics of God. She was the Holy Mother, Mother of Creation. Bal Bhagwan Ji, the eldest brother, embodied wisdom and intellect. Bhole Ji, the next brother, embodied art and music. (This was a singularly unappealing idea, because Bhole Ji's appearance and speech were not very graceful. Believers in the 'five fingers of God' idea, ever inventing ways to patch up leaks in their cosmology, excused his lack of aesthetic appeal by saying Bhole Ji 'hadn't gotten out of his deep meditation yet.') Raja Ji, the third brother, was supposed to embody courage or the qualities of statesmanship. In the future world the mahatmas envisioned, Raja Ji was the King.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 09:11:31 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: You're pulling my leg like I was pulling yours
Message:
Thanks for the title of that book. Is it full of juicy titbits like that?

But I guess you're pulling our leg with this: ''....so recollections are sketchy at best?'' Neah. I haven't got alzheimers.

James V. Downton says: ''Guru Maharaji Ji, (founder of Maharaji Jism ed.)like his brothers, was treated like a divine being by the many Mahatmas and premies who served his father in the ashram.''

I was just thinking about the strange attitudes premies had towards the ''Holy Family.'' Old pantheistic Hindu hippies like me thought it was delightful. I wasn't mad about the actual members of the family but the ''idea'' of a polytheistic, slightly chintzy and provincial, familial godhead was the cherry on top of my life through the looking glass of psychedelics.
Monotheists were slightly nonplussed but bore it bravely.

What happens when the Hindu Billy Graham Jr and his Holy Family come from a polytheistic culture (where some devotees worship several gurus and the local heifer and assorted snakes and monkeys as gods) to the monotheistic, Jehovah-fearing, Jesus-was-the-only-son-of-God west?

A lot of historical revisionism by the adherents of Maharaj Jism.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 06:05:24 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: 66 million untouchables
Message:
Better to have the christian misperception than the hindu!
The hindu ideas leave you with 66 million 'untouchables' and who knows how many of the 2 other less than brahman castes.

The hindi/buddhist ideas burden you with the notion that you have to attain some oneness. Cant be done of course.

You cant just have a freindly attitude to life, NO, you have to
merge with it.
Somehow my christian freinds that just throw up thier hands and say 'I'm a sinner' and live thier lives are less burdened by the god issue. Unless they are one of those that insist on trying to read the bible. Those guys have it hard.

Another good thing about christianity, those that preach and really read the bible get nuttier by the day. Keeps the rank and file at arms length for the most part. Regular folks cant leave
the trip perhaps, but they keep themselves away from zealots for the most part and basically just lean on a concept that 'god loves them'.

The 'he died for my sins' concepts are too much to think about.
So people dont!
At least they arent burdened by thinking they are supposed to merge! And have all these pretenders acting like they are god in person strewn about on every corner.
Sure, everybody wants to rule the world, but better that the religion keeps the godheads to a minimum.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 09:46:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: 66 million untouchables and suttee
Message:
Yep. I'm with you part of the way. I grew up in a city, Durban, where three quarters of the population was Hindu and they are not that different from Christians. Of course it is also true that no Untouchables emigrated to South Africa but most of them were sudras, not untouchable but nevertheless casteless.

You say: ''The hindi/buddhist ideas burden you with the notion that you have to attain some oneness.'' It doesn't burden Hindus. Hindus are famous for hyperbole and hyper-emotionalism. The phrase ''attaining oneness'' does not carry much more weight than a Christian's rather cooler expression, ''I feel close to God.''

Most of the hoopla surrounding Maharaj Jism in the beginning was Hindu hyperbole. We were not meant to take it quite as seriously as we did.

But, I must confess that I find Bach's St Matthew Passion or Bruckner's Stabat Mater infintely more satisfying than a bhajan or raga. And I prefer most trainspotting atheistic Anglican ethical humanist pastors to the Hindu Billy Grahams of charismatic evangelical revivalist yoga. And we did invent hygeine too. Cleanliness is next to godliness.

The apartheid caste system, suttee and the fact that India has more slaves (mostly kids given up in lieu of debt) than any other country in the world prevent it from joining the ranks of civilization.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 02:34:14 (GMT)
From: U Post It!
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Guru Snatch-a-buck, Holy Go Lightly and the Temple
Message:
In the 70s when we all did this thing, it was on Martha's Vineyard. Maraji did not deign to accept our invitation to visit the Premie House, but Charanand did.
We scrubbed and scrubbed and presented a Knowledge Session.
In that the setting was the Vineyard, it was rather wonderous.
The next year I moved to Boston and lived with somewhat jaded people. The folks I lived with in Boston called Maraji and Durgaji 'Guru Snatch-a-buck and Holy Go Lightly.'
But I still believed and went to sat sang in Brookline I believe, and Cambridge as well.
Later, about 3 years later, when I finally settled down and returned home, I was diagnosed with detaching retinas in both eyes. This has required several surgeries and limited sight.
The little *$%#&* is damned lucky he (excuse me LOTU 'Lord of the Universe' -He) hasn't been sued by all those ex-premies who have been physically as well as emotionally, sexually, and mentally abused by his (His- excuse me LOTU 'Lord of the Universe')rot. The Light meditation (pressure on the corneas) was directly linked to the detaching of the retinas.
This site is theraputic for me - it allows me to laugh and release anger at the little scum.
The good news is that the search for truth lives on -
and I have a God of my understanding through 12 steps.
so thanks, Guru Snatch a Buck! ( Guru - scuse me LOTU)!
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 04:25:32 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: U Post It!
Subject: Guru Snatch-a-buck, Holy Go Lightly and the Temple
Message:
Funny. I was just wondering if I could sue him myself. Got K in the days when you had to meditate for MORE than an hour to be trooly devoted. So meditated for an hour and three quarters in the morning (Marilyn was doing that too, so I felt like I must be really holy!?) and another hour at night. Only trouble was I had 3 children aged 5,2 and new born. Net result - I ended up with a clinically underactive thyroid gland for life (not to mention a mangled brain)
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 20:37:46 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: moldy warp
Subject: question moldy warp
Message:
did I ever look after your children in childcare?

anth the nursery

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 03:14:23 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: question moldy warp
Message:
Maybe you did. I was at Rome Hans Jayanti in Nov 77 (with two kids then, girls 4 and one and a half). That was paricularly mad as it was my honeymoon and we slept upright on a double decker bus from Newcastle and then in Rome in the same room as another couple. I was in Dortmund the next year, with new baby. That was also pretty insane as we slept in those massive tents in pretty cold weather!! I read with interest your posts re your days with M's kids. I remember being really pissed off when he announced that premies should not home-educate our kids, but concentrate on K.- I was always into home-educating my lids, but of course I did what I was told. Imagine how furious I was when years later I found the B had taken his kids out of school!
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 01:32:47 (GMT)
From: Jana
Email: jmmackay@mediaone.net
To: Everyone
Subject: OK, I am new here and not angry at all
Message:
Hi everyone. Maybe some will find this interesting.

Last year a friend of mine, who knew my history, told me that she had friends who were involved with Guru Maharaji in Portland, ME and she had told them about me. They wanted to visit and talk to them about my experiences since none of them had ever met Maharaji in person. I declined the offer.

For some reason I woke up in the middle of night last night and remembered that encounter. I wondered just what was going on with DLM and what Maharaji was up to. I had heard and seen nothing since 1975. I guess I thought that sort of thing was out of style.

Anyway, my story is a bit different.

I met a guy in 1972 named Rich in Kansas City (where I lived). He began talking to me about Maharaji and 'knowledge'. I was intrigued. Before long, I was on a bus to Denver, where I recieved 'knowledge' from Mahatma Charanand I think his name was. I returned to KC and joined an ashram.

In December, 1972, I was on my way via DLM Air India charter plane to India with 350 other premies for the Festival. Hardwar was beautiful and the people lovely and the Festival quite amazing. But I best remember 6 weeks of aemobic dysentery. Many premies left to visit the Dali Lama. I still have the menu and welcome booklet from the flight.

One thing I find really interesting is Bob Mischler's memory of the way Maharaji was presented. In my mind, there was never any doubt, whatsoever, that Maharaji and everyone else involved thought he was God incarnate, the Lord of the Universe. Just read the Peace Bomb satsang. The implication could not have been more clear.

Anyway, after another visit to India, I became 'housemother' of the KC ashram for 18 months. While there, Maharaji and Mata Ji visited and as housemother, I stayed in the basment of the home we rented for the vistit. We tried desperately to raise the money for new furniture, but we could barely afford to rent the Mercedes. We rented a couch, but Mata Ji would not sit on it.

Maharaji pretended to not know how to open/unlock the trunk of the Mercedes, so I had to show him...I was suitably honored. (snicker)

All of their clothes had to be washed separately. And Mata Ji loved some special perfume and permeated everthing of theirs.

I moved to Denver and lived in one of the several ashram's there.
Bob Mischler lived at the main headquarters, and I remember Rennie Davis (Chicago Seven fame) hanging around for a while. Bob would not remember me except for my special job.

Because my father worked for TWA for 33 years, I had a pass to fly for FREE, standby ($5.00 upgrade to first class) anywhere TWA flew. So I became the Denver Headquarters courier.

I flew to India to deliver documents. I stayed in Maharaji's home and had mango juice when it was hot. I spent most of my time in the shower as it was well over 110 degrees. Maharaji was there, but I only saw him twice. Once while he walking around the halls, and again during darshan...to this day that particular darshan encounter leaves an indelible memory...I cannot even really say what it was like without sounding stupid, so I won't even try.

I flew to London, England and again saw Maharaji and Mata Ji. Can't remember what that mission was for, but I think it had something to do with the magazine.

I flew to Tel Aviv and obtained pictures and documents smuggled out of the Arab sections and into my luggage. This was during the time that you could not even get off the planes at some airports. The Israelies did not want what I had to leave the country...I was terrifed. The information and pictures were for an article in the DLM magazine. I wish I had kept a copy.

I flew to New York and found the most expensive and beautiful dining room set I could find -- sleek dark cherry wood and bought it for Maharaji's home (over 2,000 dollars, a lot of money then).

I left in 1974.

Why? -- at heart, I was (and still am) an agnostic at best, an atheist most likely) and I liked hashish (so did the Mahatmas!!--I made several more trips to India on my own ;D

I wanted to get married and have children, which I did.

There was not any animosity on my part, I just did not care anymore and I had better things to do. Maharaji probably really thinks he is God incarnate. Whatever the case for that (if he belives it or not), I had a blast while part of DLM and would not trade it for anything. I see it as a youthful stupidity on my part.

Probably because I never had to sacrifice anything, I felt like I had lost nothing. If I was fooled, then I have no one to blame but myself.

I use the 'knowledge' (meditation on the word -- LOL) to fall asleep sometimes -- oh yeah, that is why I thought of this whole thing again this morning -- I had woke at 5AM and could not get back to sleep -- I never could meditate without falling asleep!

From what I have seen of the 'new' DLM, it is pretty creepy, and if it did not quite qualify as a cult when I was there, it certainly does now, and anyone involved who is vulnerable could get hurt.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 18:48:03 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Jana
Subject: Hello Jana
Message:
Welcome!

Your post was interesting. I have a question, nothing too personal, well, Christ, did you ever believe or think Maharaji was the Lord of the Universe, Satguru, or whatever?

I really did. I was a devotee in the truest sense for many years. The reason I am angry at Maharaji is not because I enjoy it. People don't choose to be abused, conned, betrayed, and abandoned.

Sometimes the trauma has been too great and the need to talk with others in a similar situation is necessary to complete the puzzle. Definitely not a therapy group, but a community of people looking for answers and yes, comfort, too.

I'm glad you got out and live happily. It is true that living well is the best revenge. Revenge is not what I feel about Maharaji at all. Jana, he messed with our spirituality in a huge way and he is a personality cult leader.

That's why I am here: to help complete the picture of the cult; to discuss the extremely bad and immoral behavior of Maharaji while he was professing to be Lord; and to help myself to heal.

Many people feel exactly as you do and that's fine. Good for you. Really. This isn't an ordinary forum. It's a forum of former cult members talking to eachother.

Best to you,
Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 15:45:54 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: binduesque@yahoo.com
To: Jana
Subject: Hi Jana. Me not new and not angry.
Message:
I don't know where you are, but I'm still in Denver!

I was also involved for only a few years ('75-'78) which may be one reason I'm not angry. I have many good memories from those times, although, looking back on my involvement, I see that it was very dysfunctional in terms of becoming emotionally honest, fulfilled in a genuine way.

I can understand why it seems creepy to you that we post here day after day, obsessed. Perhaps you aren't the internet addict I am! I hadn't given GMJ much thought over the last twenty years until I found this site. Now, it's just a hell of a lot of fun, chatting about this and that.

Those of us who are still involved with spirituality often spar with the atheists here.

A serious purpose for this forum, of course, is to inform people in the cult or curious about the cult about Guru Maharaj Ji's past. I was genuinely interested in learning from spiritual teachers back in the seventies (and still am), and if I had had this Internet thing back then, I might have made a wiser choice.

Anyway, glad you dropped by. (I too have a small happy family, a wonderful job, a garden etc. Life's beautiful! See my entry in Journeys above if you'd like.)

Gregg

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:25:10 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Hi Jana. Me old and really pissed
Message:
and will want to kick the crap out of rawat anytime.
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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:10:05 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jana and salam
Subject: Me old and really EXTRA pissed
Message:
Oh, it feels so good to have the opportunity to airate my true feelings for THE BASTARD WHO STOLD 25 YEARS OF MY LIFE!! mother faquer!

Jana is lucky that she don't feel like we do, eh?

RAWAT SUCKS TO INFINITUM!

Hi Salam.

s

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:50:57 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: I angrily despise Rawat but was never a premie -NT
Message:
foo
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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:06:07 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Why?............nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:47:52 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Why not?
Message:
I am an iconoclast, after all, and he is very cold.

Do you mind?

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 10:05:05 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jana
Subject: Hi Jana
Message:
Hi Jana,

I think if I'd have got out of the cult when you did, I wouldn't be feeling so angry about Captain Rawat and his scam. It sounds to me like you had a good time for a while and split before you became too entangled. Well done.

I have a question for you. You said that Maharaji pretended he couldn't open the boot of the Mercedese. How do you know he was pretending? Did he tell you afterwards that he could have opened it really if he'd wanted to?

Nice to read your post Jana.

Anth who did a life sentence with time off for bad behaviour.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 03:34:05 (GMT)
From: Jana
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hi Jana
Message:
About the Mercedes -- I realised later that he had a boatload of Mercedes back in India, same model and all.

Oddly, at the time, I rented the Mercedes and had to learn specifically how to open the bloody trunk because it was unusual and hidden. So I think he pretended not to know in order to give a lowly premie a chance to do something for him and be thrilled by it.

When it happened, though, I wanted to believe he 'knew' I (and only I) knew, how to open it, so he looked right at me, and with a puzzled and amused look on his face said 'How does this open?' So I thought it was something special. I no longer think that obviously, but I remember that moment so clearly and I am not really sure why he did it. It is not any big deal, just a small moment that I have never forgotten. It is also an example of how easy it is to make assumptions.

Yes, I am lucky I got out when I did. I feel particularly bad for any children who were raised by premie parents -- until I read some of these comments, I never thought about how hard that would be.

Jana

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 10:35:39 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jana
Subject: Premie Children
Message:
Thanks Jana.

You say, 'I feel particularly bad for any children who were raised by premie parents.'

I've probably met more children of premies than most Jana, (I used to look after them by the thousand) plus had a couple myself.

I think the parents are more in need of your sympathy than the children. Most of the premie children seem to grow up a bit wild, but OK.

Of course, premies like everyone else, experience tragedies in their lives with their children, but on the whole, premie children don't seem particularly disadvantaged, and are often adventurous- not being scared of travelling all over the place.

Both my children were delivered by premie midwives, and they spent lots of time in childcare and growing up around premies and other premie children. They seemed to glide through. We never laid Captain Rawat's trip on them, and told them he was God or anything. When Dot and I used to organise 'Children's Satsang' at the Education Ashram, we had the same policy- and would only tell the children fairy tales, or mythological stories from the scriptures.

The adults I meet who went through childcare as premie children usually have good memories of their time at programmes. I think this was because they had a bunch of friends they'd meet up with, and then proceed to run feral for a few days, taking advantage of the blissed out premies.

Anth who did his time in Childcare.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 13:18:04 (GMT)
From: Jana
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Premie Children
Message:
Anth, I am glad to hear that. It sounds like the parents did a good job protecting their children.

Jana

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 03:57:57 (GMT)
From: Jana
Email: None
To: Jana
Subject: Mercedes
Message:
Should have changed the subject to my last message so AJW could find it.

sorry

Jana

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 09:40:43 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Jana
Subject: OK
Message:
>In December, 1972, I was on my way via DLM Air India charter plane to India with 350 other premies for the Festival. Hardwar was beautiful and the people lovely and the Festival quite amazing.

I was also at that event.
I ended up standing in front of the main stage at night doing security which was quite an amazing location gazing out at all those people and the stage with Krishna Lila at shoulder level next to me. I still remember the violin duet of Over the Rainbow played at the small birthday gathering at Prem Nagar. And the dark countryside with all the fires burning on the bus trip.
Yes, it was an indoctrination into a world of feelings.

>...I cannot even really say what it was like without sounding stupid, so I won't even try.

Yes, many people reading and posting to this forum have had those types of experiences. People have had many suprising and memorable experiences around Maharaji, just as life itself is amazing when you get the chance to break through the clouds of the daily routine.

I have been to many more events since India. Many had a great vibe and people did learn and enjoyed themselves. The words written on this forum are definitely one side of the story. There is often an excuse given for when those good times did occur. The good things are often left unmentioned in the zeal to win.
One of the great things of the collaboration of people that have been around Maharaji over the years is a large collection of very good music. In many ways a unique combination.
The variety and intelligence of the people on this forum is a statement to the fact that something interesting brought people to a common history. People are older and think they have the answers now. I doubt it. We are still looking and of course trying to make the most of our lives, help others and share some good vibes. I still don't see the 'older world' of politics and big business as having brought us towards a goal of true understanding of our life, the worth of human beings and a decent plan to make this world a more loving place.
Your 'youthful stupidity' may not be stupid after all.

X

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 15:07:36 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: X
Subject: To X - An Outstanding Issue
Message:
X,

Jim repeatedly asks you if you are CD. I am giving you this opportunity to answer him now. As you know it is against forum guidelines to post using multiple names, unless the use of a new name is clearly announced, or the use of names such as Pauline Premie for humorous purposes.

So, X, please answer the question - Are you CD?

Forum Admin

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 20:55:50 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: ID discovery proceedings
Message:
>Jim repeatedly asks you if you are CD. I am giving you this opportunity to answer him now.

Why the opportunity?
Who do you know me as?
Which name do you prefer that I use?
Can Jim's line of questioning be overruled?

Thanks,
XCD

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:48:32 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: X
Subject: ID discovery proceedings
Message:
1. An opportunity for you to exercise integrity.

2. Chris Dickey

3. CD as it is the name you have used most here.

4. Yes - and it has many times.

Forum Admin

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 00:23:02 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: ID discovery proceedings
Message:
>1. An opportunity for you to exercise integrity.

OK, no biggie.

For the record:
I had the integrity to use my real name on this forum way before most any of the people who have come, gone and are here now!

Even Jim can't debate (I mean deny) that.
Right Roger eDrek?

Cheers,
CD

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 10:42:55 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: X
Subject: OK
Message:
People are older and think they have the answers now. I doubt it

For all the answers that come to mind , many people still have some unanswered questions about Maharaji. I think it is very healthy to look for anwers and naive to suggest that the questions cannot ever be answered in our adulthood or that we should just accept Maharaji's advice to ignore doubts. What makes you doubt that some people feel they have found some answers -is it because those answers shed some unwanted light on the more obscure side of the Maharaji / premie world?

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 11:51:26 (GMT)
From: X
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: OK
Message:
If people want to find answers to questions about Maharaji, that is fine. Go ahead with the pursuit and uncover the obscure side. Curiosity is human nature. From what I have seen on this forum there is a lot to sift through. Some 'information' has validity and a lot is simply rumour, guesswork and bad wishes.
The fundamental reason most people got involved in the first place was an interest in 'bigger questions' (and to have fun).
Here it gets tricky because those are the tough questions. They may not have anwers just like many aspects of the world don't have 'answers'. People continue to compute PI to this day and still hope to achieve the breakthrough that will elucidate the simple relationship bewteen the square which is the domain of man and the cirlce which is the domain of nature. Can't get much simpler than that yet the ultimate riddle remains a riddle. And we still don't even know where we go when we die. Even after all these years of thinking.
The pursuit of learning is great. It must be tempered with the respect of reality. The greatest scientists know this.
Should practical problems be worked on. Certainly. Do you see progress on the worldwide level? Most likely yes and no. When do you think the next war will occur. I bet it will happen one day. We just aren't that smart yet even with all the older people around. We are still too greedy on average and shortsighted as we are caught up in our short term achievements and the economic game.
Can we hope and try for better. Yes, by all means!
This site will achieve its best potential if the participants one day find a way to channel their brainpower, enthusiasm and considerable talents into questions and common causes that rise abouve trying to figure out M, bemoaning past injustices or traveling to the mirage of petty revenge. It is clear that continued interest in questions about the history and lifestyle of M remain. There will be a slight delay before the best use of the Internet begins.
About doubt.
Don't doubt your true potential when you feel behind, unsure, clumsy or scared in the game of life.

X

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 20:26:08 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: X
Subject: OK
Message:
If people want to find answers to questions about Maharaji, that is fine. Go ahead with the pursuit and uncover the obscure side. Curiosity is human nature. From what I have seen on this forum there is a lot to sift through. Some 'information' has validity and a lot is simply rumour, guesswork and bad wishes.

It’s all very fine to generally accuse the web forum of harbouring rumour, guesswork and bad wishes. If you have so clearly distinguished what is valid from all this perhaps you might be a bit more specific. The vast majority of what is written can be proved and is widely known to be factual. If you don’t agree, I think you should be able to be specific in your criticisms, otherwise what you are saying is unfounded speculation.

The fundamental reason most people got involved in the first place was an interest in 'bigger questions' (and to have fun).
Here it gets tricky because those are the tough questions. They may not have anwers just like many aspects of the world don't have 'answers'. People continue to compute PI to this day and still hope to achieve the breakthrough that will elucidate the simple relationship bewteen the square which is the domain of man and the cirlce which is the domain of nature. Can't get much simpler than that yet the ultimate riddle remains a riddle. And we still don't even know where we go when we die. Even after all these years of thinking.

So we don’t know everything –does Knowledge tell us where we go when we die – how can Knowledge help the world ? Please explain how you believe it can benefit the world.

The pursuit of learning is great. It must be tempered with the respect of reality. The greatest scientists know this. Should practical problems be worked on. Certainly. Do you see progress on the worldwide level? Most likely yes and no.

The world is changing all the time and I consider it futile to speculate as to whether the universe is ‘progressing’ with time or otherwise. The only thing I know is that change, progress as we know it, is inevitable. We are people of our time and we have to evaluate the how to meet the challenges and tackle the problems that our current situation presents. My intention is to integrate whatever I have learned from my time as a follower Maharaji with the information and experiences that I have accrued over the last 27 years. As I have explained on many occasions, I cannot entirely trust Maharaji in the way that seems to be required of premies, since I have personally been the victim of some of his mistakes. I had put my caution aside in my youthful attempts to ‘leave no room for doubt’ and followed Maharaji’s advice instead on many things. Most particularly, the ashram experiment left me feeling that I may have been better off not having trusted or ‘obeyed’ him in the way he demanded back then. These experiences force me to ask many hard questions that I maintain are absolutely appropriate and reasonable. Furthermore if there are any bad feelings as a result of this ‘reality check’ then it is because Maharaji has neither apologised or shown any sign of helping people who have questions or problems. He just demands that you abandon the process of questioning as far as I can see. Some bad wishes are an inevitable outcome of his failure to continue to care for or address the questions of those students who beg to differ.

When do you think the next war will occur. I bet it will happen one day. We just aren't that smart yet even with all the older people around. We are still too greedy on average and shortsighted as we are caught up in our short term achievements and the economic game.
Can we hope and try for better. Yes, by all means!

I still fail to see what Maharaji and Knowledge have to do with solving these issues. I would judge that a lot of premies are particularly short-sighted and caught up in their own agenda to the point of copping out from the real world.

This site will achieve its best potential if the participants one day find a way to channel their brainpower, enthusiasm and considerable talents into questions and common causes that rise above trying to figure out M, bemoaning past injustices or traveling to the mirage of petty revenge.

Again, you may be judging – even demonising the forum and it’s participants unfairly. I think you will find that many of the forum participants, like myself, have pretty full-on productive lives outside of this forum and are not so immoderately obsessing about Maharaji! Of course our abilities etc. are channelled into many other areas of life. This forum is for me a small part of my daily activity. I happen to think that this forum, as it is, is stimulating some productive thought and is therefore in balance a good thing. I also think that what we are seeing is a general common cause in the world today to question the many proliferating cults and religions that have relied on fear-mongering, lack of open discussion and freely available information, to exist. Therefore it is may be degenerate to suggest that people would be better off doing something else.

It is clear that continued interest in questions about the history and lifestyle of M remain. There will be a slight delay before the best use of the Internet begins.

So what is your idea about what is the best use of the Internet? What are thinking of- Honestly?

About doubt. Don't doubt your true potential when you feel behind, unsure, clumsy or scared in the game of life.

Okay, I’ll try.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 15:43:10 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Squaring the Circle
Message:
People continue to compute PI to this day and still hope to achieve the breakthrough that will elucidate the simple relationship bewteen the square which is the domain of man and the circle which is the domain of nature. Can't get much simpler than that yet the ultimate riddle remains a riddle.

It might seem a bit unfair to pick on your analogy rather than your main message, but I feel the analogy is not apt, and may serve to undermine what you are trying to say. No mathematician seeks any breakthrough in finding the exact value of Pi. The reason for this is that we understand that although we can get as close to Pi as we please, it cannot be exactly enumerated. And that's a fact.

In the context of squaring the circle (a byeword for impossibility) both the square and the circle are ideal mathematical objects. The question is, given a circle of radius, say, 1 units, how big a square should be drawn if it is to have exactly the same area as the circle. The answer is, of course, that the circle has an area of Pi times its radius_squared or Pi square units. So we must draw a square with a side of length (pardon me!) X, where X times X = Pi.

Numbers come in many varieties. Everyone is happy with integers, the numbers 1, 2, 3 etc. And we are happy with fractions, or ratios, that is, numbers like 1/2 or 2/3 or 156/100 (1.56) even 22/7. But there are also irrational numbers which cannot be so expressed.

Irrational numbers pop up all over the place. The length of the diagonal of a unit square is an irrational number, the square root of 2 (after Pythagoras). Yet it turns out that the square root of two is an irrational number. It cannot be expressed as a fraction, or as a decimal that ends (or repeats itself) after a finite number of places.

The proof that the square root of two is irrational is easy if one is familiar with High School algebra, and with the principle of reductio ab absurdum. But when Pythagoras' School established the irrationality of the square root of two, they celebrated big time! I think they ate an ox at the banquet!! What blew their minds was that a simple geometrical constuction served to prove the existence of a whole new type of number. And this new type of number was every bit as meaningful as the old familiar integers, every bit as real. Why, any geometer could lay out a line whose (ideal) length could not be precisely measured in any units or fractions thereof.

Irrational numbers were a suprise just a couple or so millenia back. But there are also transcendential numbers. You see, the square root of two can be expressed as the solution to a simple algebraic formula. It is, say(!) X where X times X = 2. But transcendential numbers cannot be so expressed. That is, they are numbers which cannot be expressed either as a ratio of integers, or as the solution to a finite algebraic formula.

Pi is transcendential, and so is e, the natural logarithm. There are algebraic formulae for these numbers, true. But the formulae are all infinitely long! that is, they have an indefinite number of terms! In some such formulae, each successive term calculates to a smaller value. Then, in order to arrive at a good enough value for either of these numbers, one simply takes the (infinitely long) formula and uses, say, the first one hundred or thousand terms, depending on how accurate one needs the answer to be.

Here's one such formula for the value of Pi
4 - 4/3 + 4/5 - 4/7 + 4/9 - 4/11 + 4/13 - 4/15 + ...

Notice the pattern! One can continue the formula as long as one wants or needs, discard the infinity of remaining terms, and derive a value for PI which is to within any desired accuracy.

So, as a transcendential number, Pi cannot be expressed as a fraction or a ratio of other numbers (and so not in any finite and non-repeating decimal expression) - and, even more interestingly, cannot be expressed as the solution to any finite algebraic formula. That is, it cannot be exactly written down, not in the decimal notation, nor as a fraction, nor as the solution to a finite algebraic expression.

What all this means is just that there is no way that the geometer (restricted to using a ruler and a compass) can construct a line of length Pi units. We can construct a line of irrational length (the diagonal of a unit square, but we cannot construct a line of transcendential length, not in a finite number of moves.

I do not think it is safe to argue from this that SQUARES are in the domain of man and CIRCLES in the domain of nature. There are many counter-intuitive findings (or mysteries) in maths, and I would not myself call the impossibility of squaring the circle the ultimate mystery.

What I like about these considerations is that they suggest that the infinite is implicit in even the most ordinary (ideal) mathematical objects, and that our minds can, all the same, think about these objects quite successfully, even applying the fruits of our thoughts to feats of practical engineering.

Anyway, where's Mike Finch when he's needed?

JohnT
- once a mathematician

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 17:44:27 (GMT)
From: Tim G
Email: \
To: JohnT
Subject: Squaring the Circle I bow to you
Message:
Thanks John .I think you are doing very nicely without Mr Finch. But of course Mathematics is a construct of man .Religions too .To quote Krishnamurti on religion: 'The Frozen Thoughts of Man'.

I always Find it fatuous when people try and 'Prove ' the existence of the infinite by using terms they themselves have invented.

Where that leaves us God Knows as they say. For me I am content with 'I don't Know'. Am I Luddite or an enlightened being? I think there must be an alternative.

Anyway I bow to your knowledge and question my earlier doubt as to the intellectual vigour of this Forum!

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:48:51 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: JohnT and all
Subject: Squaring the Circle-now THIS is infinity as it IS.
Message:
now this is how i like to become absorbed in the real proof of divinity. it is marvels like this which hold me spellbound each time i encounter one of them. maharaji couldn't present anything this real if he tried. thank you john. i'm always up for more if you've got any.janet- of mensa IQ and honors society and still discovers it's not enough
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 18:57:04 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: A+B=C.com
To: TimG, JohnT
Subject: Fractals = Mandlebrot Set = Thumbprint of God
Message:
There is a fascinating documentary shown on PBS here in the colonies called 'The Color of Infinity'. I can't recall the particulars except that, with the aid of a supercomputer, someone had deduced a mathematical formula that continually repeats into infinity. When the results of each subsequent calculation was imaged in color and continuously graphed/displayed, what appears is something similar to the 'donut' of light as depicted at the beginning of 'Who Is GM'. Very beautiful graphically and strangely comforting to watch unfold. The formula is for defining fractals. When you zoom in on the graphical representation of fractals, you find the original shape hidden within the one you zoomed in on. Or you can zoom out and find the same shape repeated endlessly - presumably into infinity in either direction - zoom in or zoom out. The Mandlebrot Set is a mathematical formula that, in effect, recreates itself endlessly.

The breathless mathematicians interviewed in the UK were saying that these fractals, generated via the Mandlebrot Set was in fact a graphical charting of the 'Thumbprint of God'.

I have the barest shread of understanding of this but think it's an intriguing idea. Do you mathematical adepts have any comments?

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:14:15 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Fractals = Thumbprint of God ??
Message:
Hmmmn. One does not need a great acquaintance with the history of science and mathematics to realise the latest and greatest mind-bending discoveries are often heralded as improving our understanding of God. Perhaps the ancient Vedic mathematicians felt they had discovered something profound when they discovered the idea of zero. Funny really, that without zero our civilisation, based as it is on math and science, could not have developed. Truly, much profit has flowed out from Nothingness!

More recently, math started to deal with infinities of various sorts, and the study of transfinite numbers. However, even a child can grasp the idea that the integers never end. When my little boy asks What is the biggest number, Daddy? I explain that one can always be added to a number - and so there is no largest number. And he understands that the number that you would get to if you could count forever can be given a name. It is the countable infinity sometimes called Aleph Null. Cantor is famous for his diagonal proof which shows that a systematic listing all the countable numbers and their ratios does in fact miss out a huge number (!) of other numbers, and in fact, these other numbers far outnumber the integers and ratios. This is called C, the number of points in a line (or plane) and is a number so large it dwarfs the first, so-called countable infinity.

Fractals, like many mathematical objects, involve the notion of infinity somewhere along the line. They are worth spending some time with, if only to make friends!

What I find stunning about fractal formulae is that from a simple formula, a simple seed so to speak, an infinitely detailed and never repeating picture can be generated. Pictures like the famous Mandelbrot set do not in fact exactly repeat themselves. Although the style may be very distinctive, the pattern is NOT repeated. Instead, however far one zooms in to the pattern, new patterns continue to emerge, in the same style as before, but never exactly replicating what has gone before.

Infinite detail from a finite, deterministic formula! Yeah, it's kinda spacey. Is the universe a kind of fractal, some infinitely detailed pattern going on forever, that is just the spinning out of the implications of one thought in the mind of a supreme being?

Well, there is nothing to suggest that is true, and plenty of evidence that people often mistake the fruits of their own minds for divine revelation!

Fractals are fun, though, and well worth getting to know.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:32:12 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Thank you professor. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 02:38:43 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jana
Subject: OK, I am new here and not angry at all
Message:
Hi Jana. It's not required to be angry in order to use the forum, but eventually somebody will piss you off here :)

DLM went downhill after 74 (the Millennium fizzling and all). For all Maharaji's claims to have wanted to throw off the Hindu trappings, they were probably the only self-control mechanism that he had in his life. The 'structure' of Elan Vital is now build around getting him what he wants when he wants it. And he just can't demand enough from devotees now in return for what he 'offers'.

And what he offers... the days when people took a bus-ride to Denver and soon received Knowledge have been replaced by YEARS of having to watch videos of Rawat droning on. What joy.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 03:59:47 (GMT)
From: Jana
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: OK, I am new here and not angry at all
Message:
Yeah, I can tell folks are not all angry, but their is an underlying resentment or bitterness that creeps in from time to time. My philosophy is to never let someone make a victim of me twice. The best revenge is a good happy life and to move on.

What a surprise to see DLM (or whatever it is called, I forgot) is still so profitable. But people will buy anything! I read in Micheal Shermer's book 'Why People Believe Weird Things', that some guy sold 'Lucky Chicken Crap' on line. (That is an excellent book, by the way, for understanding why people believe the things they do despite evidence to the contrary). Still, Maharaji and his organization seem pretty pitiful to me.

And I AM grateful for the sleep aid!

:D

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 04:33:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jana
Subject: OK, I am new here and not angry at all
Message:
Jana,

Hi. Nice to *meet* you and thanks for introducing yourself as you did. I think that the people who post here and dwell, if you will, on the past, the negative past, of the cult realize the price we pay in terms of trading in complaints, etc. It would be oh so much nicer if we looked back on our years in this group with nothing but pride and respect. But, sadly, this was a cult and we were had. So what to do? You can't change the past (much as EV and Maharaji seem to think otherwise) so you can either ignore it or deal with it.

Ignoring it's okay, especially, I imagine, the shorter or less intense the involvement. I mean, I'm sure I could think of a handful of ugly, terrible things that happened to me once. But why would I even want to? What possible good could come of doing so? I'm alive to that question; I think everyone here is.

But this premie thing is a bit different. For one thing, it's still happening and many of us have friends, or people we kind of liked a bit, still in. It's only natural to want to get them out. For lots of reasons. It's also only natural that we'd want to stop the show, don't you think? If you've been bilked by some con artist don't you want to rain on their parade? I think that's simple human nature.

Then there's the sheer fun of dissing such a highly-charged sacred cow as a falling Lord of the Universe. You know, it doesn't get much better than that. Especially when he's remorselessly lying like a motherfucker and still fleecing his flock. It's bitter but it's also sweet. Like good hard-edged music.

And I didn't mention the obvious intrigue of putting together the true picture of what we were involved in so long ago. We knew so little then; now we can catch up. Lots and lots of juicy little details, gossip even, that I still find interesting after doing this for a couple of years now.

And then there's the pure nostalgic pleasure of reminiscing about this wacky chapter in our lives. For some it was several chapters, for others, maybe one or two. But it sure was wacky and it's just something worth talking about. I mean, what e;se you gonna talk about? Well, whatever it is, you can talk about it too. There's room for all of it.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 13:51:54 (GMT)
From: Jana
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This whole site is really about recovery
Message:
Having spent a bit more time at this site, I can see that it is incredibly theraputic and probably critically important for those who were in for a long time.

Over the years, I have often thought about DLM and GM and there was always this little bitty, very quiet voice that I would squash down that said 'Maybe you should not have left, maybe he really is God'.

I never really believed in that voice, but it was there, so I can easily imagine how hard it would be to deprogram if I had and for many years.

It is traumatic, and most people need to talk about traumatic events over and over again before it can be assimilated and put to rest.

Whoever developed this site did a good thing.

Jana

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 05:45:22 (GMT)
From: Jana
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK, I am new here and not angry at all
Message:
Nice to meet you as well.

I think people have to go their own way. And sometimes the more you criticize something someone believes in, the tighter they cling to it.

I just sort of dropped in here out of the blue, because I was so surprised, and curious, to know if any one was talking about DLM...I guess it is a good place to vent frustration and strive for revenge, because where else could one do it otherwise, if one wanted, or needed to?

Anyway, I was lucky to get away completely unscathed, and just as I did in 1974, I just don't care enough about Maharaji to give it any more of my time than I already have.

With no, I don't know how to say it, with absolutely no intention of being mean or insulting, I personally, think the idea of continuing to talk about this guy for more than a day or two is horrifying and depressing. Ick.

I can think of lots better things to talk about, but not here.

Good luck!

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:43:16 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The eNiGmA of the Filament...
Message:
Now I know He's not the generator or the relay station or the transmission lines or even an outlet, but the fucking filament? Like in light bulb?

I don't get it it. I thought the Filament was within inside me and that all I had to do was 'plug-in' to the guru to enlighten up. So that would make goober the 'Outlet,' right?

Shouldn't somebody tell Him His analogy is fucked up?

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:53:14 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: You didn't realize he was a zen master then GeRrY
Message:
According to spacyT
'Who else would Play all these many ways, so that we really have to keep
Real ourselves; in the 'scene' or out of it - in this one?'

He only does this because he's breaking concepts!

Nuff said I think!

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:47:40 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: The eNiGmA of the Filament...
Message:
I think filament was his word of the day and he tried, but failed miserably, to make appropriate use of it.

Regards,
KIA

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 18:16:06 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: The eNiGmA of the Filament...
Message:
I've finally got it all figured out:

*god is the generator;

*grace is the transmission;

*guru is the outlet;

*devotees are the filaments.

Now that makes sense,and goober's Divine Cosmology includes this:

*premies are the generators;

*graditude is the transmission;

*guru is the filament.

This works perfectly because it's a closed loop system. As long as the premies keep participating and showing graditude, The Filament will continue to orchestrate 'that feeling.'

One becomes enlightened by plugging into god's grace through the outlet of the guru. The devotee in turn, shows monthly graditude and that lights up the Filament.

I hope you're all clear on this...

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:28:19 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The eNiGmA of the Filament...the final phase -
Message:
... and exes are the ones who change the bulb when the guru burns out?

I see the light! (bang, ouch)

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 22:23:32 (GMT)
From: EV Recruitment Division
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Come Join The Fun !!!!!
Message:
Here is our latest mailer for those of you who have chosen not be included on our mailing list. Application forms are available at the end of this message:

************************************
participation@elanvital.org

Hello and welcome!
This is an additional 'thank you' from the Participation Team to each one of you who are involved in the Financial Participation area.

Here is the Participation Application, along with some frequently asked questions about the application. This is a warm-hearted invitation for you to participate. We hope you will take the time to complete it, (preferably by email so we can import the information quickly).

If you have access to a computer, we encourage you to download this application from the Elan Vital websits and to return the completed application by email to participationCo)-elanvital.org. If you are completing the application manually, please return it to the following address: Participation Application, P.O. Box 6130, Malibu, CA 90264.

What is the purpose of this application? It was designed as part of the global effort to improve and synchronize the area of participation. This application will match your skills, abilities and interests with available participation opportunities both locally and internationally.

I am already involved in participation; do I need to send in an application? Yes. It would be greatly appreciated because it will allow us to become familiar with the full scope of your skills, abilities and interests. Also, if you have completed an application, you can apply for participation opportunities that are posted on the Elan Vital website.

I have already sent in an application. Do I need to fill out another? If you sent in your application after May 2000, you do not need to send in another one. Remember to update any information that has changed since then.

If I sent in an application for Training, do I still need to fill out this form? Yes. The Training Questionnaire and the Participation Application are two separate documents.

Do I need to complete every question? The photograph, previous work experience, references and essay questions are all optional. We would like, however, to emphasize the importance of the 'Previous Work Experience' section, as we have found that it provides invaluable information for matching the right person to the available position.

I am not a business professional. Is there still something I can offer? Yes! Every person has something to offer. Sometimes skills are overlooked, such as 'I am highly organized' or 'I am a good team player' or 'I am responsible'. Include these skills and strengths on the application.

The invitation we have all received to participate is a very special one. Let's use our valuable resources to offer the best we can!
Sincerely,
The Participation Team

Authorizations

By submitting this application:
I authorize Elan Vital, Inc. to process electronically and in print my personal data, to contact my references, to verify information on this application and to disclose and transfer this information to other organizations pursuing the same objectives.

I release Elan Vital, Inc. and my references from liability from furnishing such information.

I will at any time have the right to access, modify, block, or erase my personal data by contacting the addresses listed on this cover letter.

**************************************
Forms:

Participation Form Part 1

Participation Form Part 2

***************************************
Questions? Comments?

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 10:10:15 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: EV Recruitment Division
Subject: Participation
Message:
Participation means Giving Money.

Even if you write an optional essay.

Anth the optional guilder

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 04:37:08 (GMT)
From: moldy warp
Email: None
To: EV Recruitment Division
Subject: Come Join The Fun !!!!!
Message:
Thank you very much.I think I am a suitable applicant for participation at the highest level. This is because I once sewed together a gold silk cushion for the Lord to put his feet on. (this was of course called 'service' back then but I won't dwell on that.) It was somewhat unfortunate that I loathed the holy task as I am crap at sewing, but I was only in my mind, so, of course,I am eager to do other 'mindless' tasks so that (one day) I may be rescued from said mind.
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:29:46 (GMT)
From: The Elan Vital Satarist
Email: None
To: EV Recruitment Division
Subject: I give up
Message:
The person who sometimes satarizes Elan Vital and the vapid, cultspeak they engage in, is unable to satarize something that speaks for itself. Note two particular 'ElanVitalCultSpeak' items.

What is the purpose of this application? It was designed as part of the global effort to improve and synchronize the area of participation

There is that 'synchronize' again. Does anyone recall when 'synchronize' became such a part of premie cultspeak? It occurs everywhere, and they don't seem to care that we have ridiculed them extensively for such stupid language.

Is 'synchronized' the term that is now used for being in 'grace' or 'connected to Maharaji' like we used to say?

Plus, 'participation' is an institution in and of itself, apparently.

I am already involved in participation; do I need to send in an application?

People don't 'participate' they 'do participation' and are 'involved in participation.' It has replaced the old cultspeak, remember? One would 'do service' or be 'involved in service,' one did not 'serve.'

I know that both 'synchronize' and this participation business is obviously because premies always mimic the way Maharaji talks. Does this come from English being his second language?

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Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 14:18:34 (GMT)
From: magnolia
Email: None
To: The Elan Vital Satarist
Subject: andy kaufman or m? let's mimic an immigrant
Message:
hi-

when i first met my premie boyfriend in '97, i also heard new terminology, pronunciations and vocal inflections. i used to tell him that he sounded like english was his second language, although he is a california native. and this was a long time before i even questioned this cult business!

'doing service' quickly made sense to me, although i found it to be an odd type of grammar. perhaps because my boyfriend was a quiet teenager and had not fully developed his speaking style back in '71, he seems to have copped a lot of maharaji-speak along the way.

but, i've been a good influence... a honeyed southern drawl can be as hypnotic as an unpleasant indian tenor!

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Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:28:37 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: magnolia
Subject: Hell, it used to be worse (or was it?)
Message:
Back in the day, we used to definitely say some weird shit, parroting our cult leader and the scarabs he rode in on. We'd talk Indian-style, saying things like 'I will take food now' or 'take rest'. The mahatmas talked that way; so could we.

But that wasn't so bad, just a little irritating. The real kickers were the mind-fuck terms that blurred clear thinking. Words like 'the mind', 'truth' or 'experience' became all-important and completely meaningless simultaneously. Phrases like 'within inside', which make no sense either semantically or grammatically, were what we relied on to express ourselves. Of course, when we thought that we were really no more real in our individuality than drops of water and that satsang was a process by which Maharaji actually spoek through us -- no, I'm not exaggerating -- it paid to get in synch.

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Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 07:51:56 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: The Elan Vital Satarist
Subject: I give up
Message:
Satarist:

Very insightful observations. I'd have never thought of the possibility that the very phrasing of these appeals mimics the speech patterns of the leader, and because he never listens to anyone doesn't know he's being ridiculed. Great observation. I guess if the silliness gets beyond a certain point satarization isn't fun. It's like what Woody Allen says about sado-masochism. First you hurt me, then we have sex. It's no fun if you do it the other way around. Or is it the other way around?

--Scott

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 07:20:19 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: The Elan Vital Satarist
Subject: Oh My God! It's Real!
Message:
I read the Come Join the Fun post last night before going to bed and thought it was a clever send up of the absurd use of language by Elan Vital these days. Then I checked the forum this morning and read that it's real. I still had my doubts so I went to the EV site to check.

So it's real. CultbusterUK posted a list of vacancies in EV UK a while ago which looked like the positions as heads of every department were vacant. Could it be that the exodus is reaching epidemic proportions and they are getting desperate to fill positions?

John.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 13:11:52 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Essays by tomorrow morning please.
Message:
I thought it was a spoof too John. Especially the bit about the optional essay. Come on. That's got to be a joke right?

I'd love to read some of them. You have two hours. Pick three questions.

1. Explain why co-operation and synchronisation are the new satsang service and meditation.

2. Yesterday he's Balyogeshwar Param Hans Satgurudev Maharaji Born Lord of Yogis, Lord of the Universe and Avatar of the Age. Today he's simple Captain Rawat with a humble $40,000,000 jet. Explain?

3. You once were lost, then you were found, but now you feel a bit lost again. Explain

4. What is the relationship between devotion and money?

Answers should be typed, or clearly handwritten, and be between 1500 and 2000 words.

Mr Ginn.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 09:31:33 (GMT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Those positions will remain vacant....
Message:
once the shit hits the fan in the press in a few weeks, with more to come later on.

It's going to be a wild ride, but great fun.

KIA

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 23:28:10 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: EV Recruitment Division
Subject: Thank God I'm out off it ! nt
Message:
out of it
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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 22:51:14 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Stange!!!
Message:
From: http://elanvital.org/participate.htm

The invitation we have all received to participate is a very special one. Let's use our valuable resources to off the best we can!

Strange!!!

Steve

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 01:36:29 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: I Guess They Meant 'Offer'
Message:
Let's use our valuable resources to off the best we can!

I guess they meant 'offer' but it sure looks strange. I wonder why they are so slow to catch the mistake.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 22:43:54 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: EV Recruitment Division
Subject: BIG question jumps right out at me
Message:
This line:

I authorize Elan Vital, Inc. to process electronically and in print my personal data,...........and to disclose and transfer this information to other organizations pursuing the same objectives.

What the hell does this mean? Exactly what other organizations?
Maybe they're teaming up with the Moonies or Scientologists, forming a Global Cult Cooperative or sumfink.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 16:42:00 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: BIG question jumps right out at me
Message:
Betcha it's premie businesses.
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 17:14:18 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: resistance is futile
Message:
- note how applicants HAVE to agree to this!
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 17:37:25 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: resistance is futile
Message:
Yes, no one but EV could get away with that! (Making people sign up for junk mail and spam?)
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 18:53:25 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: resistance is futile - we are the Borg NT
Message:
sw
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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 10:15:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Somebody probably had a bright idea.
Message:
'I know. Maybe we can make a bit more money by selling our mailing list. People pay big bucks for those nowadays.'

'But who'd want to buy the addresses of a bunch of gullible cult members and ex-members?'

'Er... there must be someone out there interested. Got it. The Moonies, Children of God, Hare Krishnas, People's Temple. Are the People's Temple still in business?'

'Yeah, here's their address.'

Anth the warped.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 19:00:19 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Premie mailing lists for sale to purveyors of
Message:
Pashmina shawls, crystal trinkets and Publishers Clearing House.
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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 23:48:27 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: BIG question jumps right out at me
Message:
You know when EV gets to hot and they rename it Amaroo Adventures a true survivors story. This way you can work for all of M's worldwide free labor organizations.
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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 23:23:56 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: BIG question jumps right out at me....DECA
Message:
It's very similar to the questionnaires sent out prior to the 707 project.

Eeerily similar...Yuck!

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 21:11:41 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: another enigmatic EV 'expression:'
Message:
A call

You have called to my heart since my youth,
I called to your heart in your youth,
We met... and love lit the sky

Judy Provitch
Miami Beach, Fl, USA

I'm a little puzzled by the second line...like a lot of EV poetry, it makes less and less sense the more I think about it.

Also, why does Elan Vital continue to post poetry like this which directly contradicts their contention that Maharaji is most certainly NOT some kind of omnipotent God-like figure?

How many of us have our most profound inner prayers answered by, say, a karate teacher or a ski instructor? And that's what M is, without the nods and the winks: a simple teacher of a simple meditation practice.

Uh-huh.

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 23:22:12 (GMT)
From: SpacyT
Email: None
To: Gregg and all
Subject: Last Post
Message:
Hi all, I know you are in perfect agreement with each other, but I really think there should be aword from the un-organised opposition (eg not EV).
Gregg, I think that second line of the poem was referring to just how young Maharaji was when he undertook this service to his Master, and some of us were calling out...

Maybe you weren't. Can you remember that?
But then what kind of a Teacher did we want anyway?
A nice tame one to patch our dreams into a reality?
Or someone who would do the job...
...Despite what you or any of us care to think.

I can clearly remember from the start how Maharaji was just not what I thought he should be like..
.. and then I DID actively work against him, so can remember what a buzz that gave.
But what value an opposition that is dependant on the thing it opposes to give it meaning? But has none of its own.

Anyway, what made us go there? Do you beleive that you were so dumb?

Who else would Play all these many ways, so that we really have to keep Real ourselves; in the 'scene' or out of it - in this one? Yes even a troll like myself has to keep it real, because I don't live in the cosy cult some people seem to think still exists.

When I came to Maharaji, I was aiming to leave this world completely, or at least live in a transformed version of it. Strong ideas and very little sense of how to go about it. Maybe you were all completely different.

Yes, I got involved with so many things that were cultish, and worked hard to develop a full blown religion too...

But , against all the odds, and my expectations, this path has led me more and more back into the world that I rejected, when I was about twelve, long before .. all this.. And I love living in it now, and can really enjoy it and Knowledge together. Feels great.

Here I am married (to an ex-premie of the 80's - who makes you lot just mild entertainment, when it comes to confrontation), with two (very 'anti') teenage daughter. I work as an engineer in the semiconductor industry, have a mortgage, two cars etc etc. Bog standard, and finally don't think myself superior, or inferior, to anyone.... not even you BONGOS, really...

(joke)

But I still find that it is the inspiration that Maharaji gives that really helps me to enjoy it all, and also feel the fulfilment that is personal and not really open for discussion or debate.(but still more real than all the rest to me)

So why say this? Because you seem to think that it is all cut and dried, and I would contend that it depends upon what any of us are experiencing.

My experience is that Maharaji is the best teacher, Master or Satguru, or any of it, that anyone (or should I just say I) could ever have asked for.

Thanks.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 01:12:53 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: SpacyT
Subject: Last Post (meaning no possible discussion?)
Message:
Hi StacyP

Like most of us here, we know EXACTLY what you are talking about, having once been satisfied with the path M teaches. I am not sure what 'buzz' you are talking about engendered by anti-M activity, though. I'm here for fun and to inform aspirants/premies about other viewpoints. My buzz comes from my family, my job, and my meditation.

Many of us who post on this site have moved on spiritually. What we suggest you do is to consider the possibility that the Knowledge buzz might not have anything to do with Prem Pal Rawat. Some of us ascribe the feeling to God, some to the brain. In any case, having felt it once and broken the emotional ties to the Master, it seems obvious to us that we were deluding ourselves. You obviously disagree.

However, when premies refuse to face the facts about M's behavior (behavior about which I was ignorant, and about which you are not, if you've explored this site), it makes me wonder about their dedication to truth.

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Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:25:31 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: SpacyT
Subject: Last Post (will you read this?)
Message:
Hi all, I know you are in perfect agreement with each other,
Right, that's a joke yeah? If not you haven't been around here much. The only 'agreement' here is that he is not what he claims to be.


But then what kind of a Teacher did we want anyway?
A nice tame one to patch our dreams into a reality?
Or someone who would do the job...

First off he hasn't done the job as you call it, he's been a dismal failure, less and less people hear about k, while he rakes it in at about $10000 dollars a day.
One k session last year, according to ev.
Numbers dropping by the year.
How has he done the job?

I can clearly remember from the start how Maharaji was just not what I
thought he should be like..
.. and then I DID actively work against him, so can remember what a buzz
that gave.
But what value an opposition that is dependant on the thing it opposes to
give it meaning? But has none of its own.

First off there are plenty of other values to life interpretation here other than anti-gm, secondly there is the community aspect of helping people recover, which can be quite traumatic.
I really think you've done a superficial reading of this site, which sorry to say so, is par for the course for visiting premies.

Anyway, what made us go there? Do you beleive that you were so dumb?
Dumb, yeah, pretty much so. Had no idea the techniques were well known, had no idea the approach was a bog standard bhakti-yoga/radha approach.

Who else would Play all these many ways, so that we really have to keep
Real ourselves; in the 'scene' or out of it - in this one? Yes even a troll like
myself has to keep it real, because I don't live in the cosy cult some people
seem to think still exists.

So you're still living with the lila number of he switches, contradicts himself, you surrender. Any benefits to be gained from that are your input, not his approach which has been a dismal failure.

When I came to Maharaji, I was aiming to leave this world completely, or at
least live in a transformed version of it. Strong ideas and very little sense of
how to go about it. Maybe you were all completely different.

Some people did stop from topping themselves because of k/gm, no doubt,, do you have any idea how many people topped themselves because of gm? Loads mate, loads.

Yes, I got involved with so many things that were cultish, and worked hard
to develop a full blown religion too...

But , against all the odds, and my expectations, this path has led me more
and more back into the world that I rejected, when I was about twelve, long
before .. all this.. And I love living in it now, and can really enjoy it and
Knowledge together. Feels great.

I suspect that once you'd got past the suicide stage, a lot of the journey back to the world, you thank gm for, would have happened anyway, natural growth.
As for k, you don't need gm to practice k, so can we leave that out of the equation please. Whenever I feel like meditating I have a great time too, irrelevant to the discussion.

But I still find that it is the inspiration that Maharaji gives that really helps me
to enjoy it all, and also feel the fulfilment that is personal and not really
open for discussion or debate.(but still more real than all the rest to me)

So why say this? Because you seem to think that it is all cut and dried, and I
would contend that it depends upon what any of us are experiencing.

My experience is that Maharaji is the best teacher, Master or Satguru, or
any of it, that anyone (or should I just say I) could ever have asked for.

Good for you, so anything he's done is justified then, covering for jagdeo's paedophilia and letting him carry it on in India, the ashram experiment where he broke his contract and destroyed a number lives, including post ashram suicides, the outrageous living expenses (you do know he's just bought a $3million dollar yacht, a $40million dollar plabne, just as he says he's not touring anymore, the lies he puts up on his web site and elsewhere about the past, the driving accident where he killed someone which was covered up, the abuse of his family and the premies around him, his drug and alcohol addiction, the constant covering up that he stillsees himself as the perfect master, none of this matters since you're having a good experience.
And then you, so reasonable in tone say you're not in a cult, leaving out the completely selfish angle.
Purrlease.
That's so adolescent it's laughable.

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 23:53:57 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: SpacyT
Subject: Last Post, I hope not
Message:
But Hey! SpacyT. That's your experience, and all due respect to that. Now, My experience has taken a new turn. In fact I started listening to myself, my own inner voice, and it had some radical things to say to me about, for instance, why I always cringed at the sound of his strangulated shrill voice, why I could never find a video that I would feel proud to show a friend.

This is me, a premie who believes I have the best thing that this world has to offer!!!!.....and yet....there's so much I don't like, there's so much I find hard to go along with. Not least the fact that he talks total simplistic puerile garbage.

I loved him for a long time, but when that moment arrived and I saw clearly that my idol had feet of clay...my god...those feet just crumbled before my eyes.

I really and truly wish you clarity
love Kelly

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Date: Fri, Feb 09, 2001 at 22:13:09 (GMT)
From: Elan Vital
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: another enigmatic EV 'expression:'
Message:
Dear Mr. Gregg:

In the course of reviewing reports from our monitors of vile and unfounded allegations against Maharaji and Elan Vital by anonymous posters like yourself on the internet, Elan Vital has found itself coming close to violating our policy of not being judgmental, especially towards vile scum like you, who attack Elan Vital and the non-God-claiming Maharaji, like you do. We just hope it helps us do our job better by being the target of your bile. But it is difficult nonetheless. We at Elan Vital are comforted by looking at our Visions watches which remind us all to breathe and stay alive.

Please be advised that the Enjoyinglife.org website, from which you are quoting the poetry from Judy Provitch, has no legal connection to Maharaji, Elan Vital or Visions. Elan Vital, which is quite different in a number of ways from a cult, has no connection whatsoever to that website, and since Elan Vital has no members, is not a religion or church except for tax purposes, this is another reason Elan Vital is not like a cult, which is in line which our policy that we are not a cult, nor do we associate with anyone who is in a cult. This is also our policy.

Elan Vital has no connection to Ms. Provitch either and we have a policy against her, too, except to the extent she makes donations to Elan Vital. Elan Vital has no knowledge of her and to Elan Vital's knowledge she has never filed a formal, written, notorized, triplicate report that she has been sexually molested at any time by anyone connected to Elan Vital or Maharaji, and we have a policy against people being sexually molested anyhow, which takes care of that. That's just the kind of non-cult organization we are.

While the enigmatic, Maharaji, who has said he is an ordinary person at least once without winking or laughing, does emphasize the need to listen to one's heart, Elan Vital is not aware of whether that includes calling one's own heart, or the heart of others either directly, long distance or collect.

Elan Vital is unable to continue this discussion or answer your question at this time. We have referred your request to our Public Relations Department. Ms. Pauline PWK will contact you within the next 1,308 months with Elan Vital's response, and certainly no later than when hell freezes over.

Sincerely,

ELAN VITAL: NOT HARBORING CHILD MOLESTORS SINCE 2000!

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