Helen -:- Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:14:13 (GMT)

__ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 01:14:01 (GMT)

__ __ Disculta -:- Ouch! Yup! -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 23:48:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- Ouch! Yup! -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:46:17 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Bad effects from meditation attrib to CFS -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 02:47:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Patrick (Formerly Anon) -:- Bad effects from meditation attrib to CFS -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 11:49:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Postie -:- UK PWK claims nectar cured him -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 16:55:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Postie, the talabya yoga technique is used -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 21:02:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- meditation itself bad for central nervous system.. -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 20:29:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Hitting myself with a hammer -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 22:58:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hitting myself with a hammer -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 04:26:33 (GMT)

__ Cynthia -:- Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:43:20 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- PTSD definitely -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:51:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Cynthia -:- PTSD definitely...traveling was hard for me, too -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:15:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ Monmot -:- Count me in for PTSD -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:09:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- imagine that childhood + cult for 26 years -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:14:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- imagine that childhood + cult for 26 years -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:26:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Abuse and folks that were impossible to please -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 06:34:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Abuse and getting toughened up -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 10:28:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Depression and Relief -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 20:45:55 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- chronic pain. old age, organ recitals -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 19:26:45 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- (Sniff) Pass a tissue. I'll start a collection. -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 23:23:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian S -:- Put me down for twenty bucks anth, -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 06:39:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Anth, I'll take the Marmite, goat, hoist, -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 03:02:56 (GMT)

__ gerry -:- CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:25:18 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- Bare/Rife resonant frequency therapy. -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 20:37:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ Brian S -:- Dr Royal Rife -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 20:52:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Dr Royal Rife, a bit of a correction -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:16:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian S -:- Dr Royal Rife, a bit of a correction, Yes Gerry -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:53:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Dr Royal Rife, a bit of a correction, Yes Gerry -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:05:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- not sure either -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:27:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Dr Royal Rife -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:08:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian S -:- Dr Royal Rife Thanks Monmot, another link -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:43:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Thanks Brian S. I'll check it out......nt -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:51:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Dr Royal Rife well put Monmot -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:13:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Dr Royal Rife - may not be the same thing -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 20:57:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- Similar to Rife + Question to Gerry -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 00:19:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Similar to Rife + Question to Gerry -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 19:04:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 05:35:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Brian S -:- Dr Royal Rife - may not be the same thing -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:29:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thaks Brian S -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:31:55 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:16:17 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Chronic pain - chronic as in occuring from time to -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:14:16 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:44:15 (GMT)

__ __ Joy -:- Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:50:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- My very condensed journey -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 23:56:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ Katie -:- Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:54:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Joy -:- CFS = Virus -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:59:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Osler's Web was written by Hillary Johnson -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 19:34:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- CFS = Virus -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:02:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- CFS = Virus -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 01:50:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- 'It's all in your head' -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 17:39:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- CFS = Virus -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 17:13:06 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:41:30 (GMT)

__ JTF -:- Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:37:57 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 01:37:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Monmot -:- Yes, Fun is a Necessity, Not Trivial -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 02:06:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Yes, Fun is a Necessity, Not Trivial -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 02:19:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- So, Helen, Whaddya think of Russell? -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 06:56:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Gladiator (ot) -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 17:22:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Gladiator (ot) -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:34:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Gladiator (ot) -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:39:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- I posted an answer before I had read everybody -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 04:48:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- I posted an answer before I had read everybody -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 20:09:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Helen, then your sister in law will have to have -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 02:11:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Helen, then your sister in law will have to have -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 04:39:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ phanatical philostine -:- I posted an answer before I had read everybody -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 22:26:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dairy Donut Diana -:- I posted an answer before I had read everybody -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 04:35:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Satanic Priestess -:- My favorite breakfast food -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:57:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hannibal Lector -:- My favorite breakfast food -:- Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:49:12 (GMT)

Loaf -:- Loaf's thoughts +*BONGOs post from below *REPOSTED -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 14:20:56 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Thanks for rescuing this, Oafster ji -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 22:16:59 (GMT)

__ __ Bongo -:- Thanks for rescuing this, Oafster ji -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 12:11:02 (GMT)

__ Bin Liner -:- His jet , my jet ... we were on a mission -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 01:42:35 (GMT)

Media Resource Team -:- Talking of getting hosed....... -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 03:33:51 (GMT)

__ cq -:- ...more like getting pissed on from a great height -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 15:35:04 (GMT)

__ bill -:- Life magazine in 78...nt -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:35:56 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- Life magazine in 79...nt -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:36:52 (GMT)

__ Babs -:- Is it just me, or... -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 05:30:16 (GMT)

__ __ Wm -:- its you -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 07:25:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Wm, now you've made us all want to know more you -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 10:31:36 (GMT)

__ __ Monmot -:- The train is now entering the tunnel.... -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:20:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- The train is now entering the tunnel.... -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 02:10:15 (GMT)

__ __ Brian S -:- Is it just me, or... I Remember -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 07:46:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Blue contact lenses -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 06:20:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Brian S -:- Blue contact lenses/what a pretty sight you must -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 07:01:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- Is it just me, or... I Remember -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:22:59 (GMT)

__ __ Francesca -:- Thanks for the memories ... -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 06:52:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- Thanks for the memories ... -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:19:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ Babs -:- The only reason I can remember all this stuff -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 07:10:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Wise indeed to keep your own counsel! n/t -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 00:15:54 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- Is it just me, or... -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 05:53:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ SB -:- What a dirty mind helen! LOL -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 06:16:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- J-M has some even more pornographic Holi pics -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:26:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I have forgotten about that -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 23:25:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hi SB (ot) -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 17:21:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Hi SB (ot) -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 23:23:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Helen -:- What a dirty mind helen! LOL -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 15:52:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Please, more, more!! -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 00:11:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- your wish is my command -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 04:51:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- SUPERB!! More, more....when u hav time? Thanks NT -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:12:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Well Done Helen!! (nt) -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 20:57:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Yes, well done Helen!! (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:42:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- There's more where that came from....(nt) -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 01:43:49 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- This is Life Magazine May or June, 1979 -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 05:00:10 (GMT)

__ __ bill--did he have his -:- nervous breakdown because m got angry?..nt -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 05:40:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joe -:- I think it was just the whole thing.... -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 19:37:27 (GMT)

__ __ Media Resource Team -:- Thank you Joe -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 03:39:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ eBay Alert -:- 1979 Life Magazines for sale -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 08:11:06 (GMT)

__ __ Cynthia -:- Joe, I got interviewed for DECA at that Holi! -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:58:02 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- This is Life Magazine May or June, 1979 -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 05:55:23 (GMT)

Postie -:- PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 02:59:32 (GMT)

__ Roy -:- PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 20:47:29 (GMT)

__ __ Postie -:- PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 00:06:04 (GMT)

__ Katie -:- Postie, you are not alone -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:32:39 (GMT)

__ Pat Conlon -:- Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists and Anglicans -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 10:19:13 (GMT)

__ __ Postie -:- Old fogey armchair yogi - cool man! -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 18:06:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Wisdom comes from all sorts of people -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 18:10:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Postie -:- We are all gods... -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 18:21:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- We are all gods... -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 19:25:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- We are all gods... -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 02:49:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- We are NOT all gods... -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 05:16:02 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- gods... not God -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 06:07:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Postie, material for much discussion here -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:01:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Pat, I definitely wont cross you ... -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:32:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Postie, I answered your poll NT -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:41:31 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- We are all gods...Postie -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 18:33:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- We are all gods...Postie -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:08:07 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Psychedelics put Maharaj Jism in persepective -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:55:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Kelly if you like my posts - you are a GOD! (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:40:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Kelly, did you get my email? (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:27:16 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- When I hear the word 'spiritual'... -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:29:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ Curioius George -:- When I hear the word 'spiritual'... -:- Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 04:42:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- You can sniff my spiritual armpits anytime, Anth -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:59:24 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 07:41:05 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:02:56 (GMT)

__ __ Tim G -:- Irish Lotus -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 11:06:21 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 06:04:53 (GMT)

__ __ Babs -:- As Ralphie the Chef always says, -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 06:47:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- As Ralphie the Chef always says, -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 15:53:51 (GMT)

__ bill -:- good to have you here...nt -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 04:04:05 (GMT)

__ Francesca -:- Postie, I find the same, about writing down the .. -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 03:47:41 (GMT)

__ __ Postie -:- Francesca: Writing down the bones -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:53:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- Francesca: Writing down the bones -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 00:22:06 (GMT)

__ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- Don't worry about the length of your Journey.. -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:09:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Francesca -:- No asap -:- Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 00:23:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Postie -:- Personal mythology -:- Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:20:14 (GMT)

Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:14:13 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

I noticed from Babs' journey that she has had chronic pain in one arm since the days of being one of Maharaji's expendable drones. He used them up and threw them away like so many mop heads, if they got a little worn, toss 'em in the trashm there's always fresh young blood out there, after all. Would like to see a poll of how many ex premies have had problems with chronic fatigue, chronic fatigue syndrome-- chronic fatigue meaning being bone tired alot of the time, CFS being something systemic that is diagnosed through blood tests--fibromyalgia, multiple chemical sensitivies, chronic pain (such as repetitive stress injuries), or other autoimmune or central nervous symptom problems that started when they were premies or as a result of the stress/fatigue of being premies. Pushing through pain/fatigue or trying to override one's body is exactly what can cause this shit, and it was exactly the premie culture. SO I would be interested in hearing how many of us have these problems. And hey, those of you with depression or other mental symptoms of stress that started while premies, I'd like to hear from you as well. Just my own little research project. All confidential. Thanks Helen

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 01:14:01 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: Helen Subject: Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

I think I have mentioned repeatedly that my health was the ultimate thing that drove me to actually stop subjecting myself to going to programs etc. Here's my contribution to the poll. There was a program in Portugal in the 80's at which I suffered an extremely strange experience for which to this day I have no satisfactory explanation . Whilst actually listening to Maharaji speak I felt an extraordinary detached and weird mental state come upon me. It was truly as if I had been given some drug. It was totally overwhelming. I felt a deep sense of mental discomfort for no apparent reason and when I went to the bathroom afterwards and realised that this attack was beyond my control - I became anxious and had some tunnel vision. I had to explain my situation to those I was with which was impossible. I had to lie down on a bench in the park. After a while the attack passed. This was the start of a serious of regular similar attacks and later the chronic tiredness which I also never really had any diagnosis for. Thankfully, after about seven years of diminishing but devasting bouts, the condition faded away. At first I seriously wondered if I had contracted Rabies or some deadly disease - the anxiety attacks were entirely a new and sudden experience for me and were clearly because of something that affected my brain. I even fancied that I had some sort of cerebral swelling (Encepholitis?) -since that was a feeling that sometimes accompanied the attacks. Also I had fitful sleeps, bizarre dreams and crashing tiredness in the day. The worst feeling was the onset of a drug like mental feeling of dreadful unease in the most ordinary and normally unthreatening situations. It was odd for me because I never really was the worrying type and these 'chemical' anxiety attacks were a new experience. I got real about life pretty damn fast - I actually felt that my life was in danger. Anyway, I noticed, like others have, that stress indeed was a factor in this. Going to satsangs and even meditation itself could actually trigger the attacks. To cut a very long story short, that was why I stopped going to programs and putting myself through any absolutely unneccessary extra stress or trauma -for that was what my Maharaji involvement increasingly made me feel- stressed out. Personally I consider that I was particularly heavily traumatised by the ashram pressure and all of the Maharaji stuff I went through. Also when the ashrams closed I worked doubly hard to resurrect a life for myself. In 1981 aged 25, I had to start a career from scratch. The constant work I undertook as a result undoubtedly took it's toll on my health too. To add insult to injury, a year or two back I was diagnosed as having Gall Stones. Just as I had overcome one long chronic illness (which was never diagnosed despite trying every kind of doctor or therapy on God's earth) I had this new problem! At least it was clear what the problem was though. The specialist advised surgery to remove my gall bladder. I was not keen to do this since I wondered if having had my tonsils out as a kid hadn't somehow removed an organ which protected me from some insidious viruses. I suspected that my gall bladder could still be of use to me for a while longer! So instead, I got on the Net and discovered the Liver /Gall bladder cleanse which involves drinking a load of lemon juice and olive oil at bedtime, and then passing the stones in the morning. To my amazement it worked a dream and I felt immediately much better. I do this cleanse periodically and it seems to aid both my digestion and get rid of the stones. In retrospect I am absolutely certain that the cognitive dissonance that I experienced as a premie, and the stress that I went through as a result contributed directly for much of my ill health. How could it not ? What is the biggest killer? - stress. Today I read an interview with 79 year old British entertainer Harry Secombe, who was speaking about his prostate cancer, diabetes and recent stroke. His comment : 'The best way to deal with prostate cancer is to have a stroke. It takes your mind off it' - Something will get us in the end so it's it's good to maintain some humour!

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 23:48:59 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Ouch! Yup! Message:

I just got back from being away and am glad to see this thread, as this is the main reason I come to F5. I have had CFS and co (fibrowhatsit and much more) since my last years in the cult, in the early 80's. That makes it 20 years that I have been sick. I have done all imaginable types of straight and alternate therapy, most especially therapy itself (I'm a therapist). Recently it has seemed to me that the mysterious onset happened during a time of incredible stress when MJ had closed and was then reopening the ashrams. I had gotten married in the interim, and liked it, and was torn in half by MJ's about turn. I literally felt as though I was going crazy. And I didn't know where to turn. Not long after this, I started to get more and more exhausted, to the point of disability. The whole 'do service all day and all night if you can' mentality (those were the actual words of an English premie song, and if I'm not mistaken, the singer got M.S.!) was very powerful for me. I felt guilty if I wasn't burning myself out for the Lord. To be in full disclosure, I came from a family of world-savers, and this tendency was somewhat etched into my nervous system in advance. But taken to skyrocketing heights in the cult. The reason I'm so interested in deconstructing and remembering some of the belief vultures that were flying around me at the time I got sick is that I felt as though I got established in some kidn of physiological habit of overriding my body that I have had a very hard time releasing. Even when I have time to relax, it doesn't come easily, even when I'm exhausted. There is a kind of hyper-vigilance in my cells, which I think is what stops the full flow of chi that might heal me. Recently I have felt a shift, and I feel I am waking up out of this 20-year challenge. Actually, challenge is just a politically correct way of saying fucking nightmare (healthwise - other things are great). One of my big awakenings has been to realize that I need to focus on health rather than sickness. I mean, actually vibrationally resonating with the feeling of health, even when I'm feeling ill and in pain. This has been quite powerful, and I feel as though I am recreating myself. I am going to read the rest of this thread and maybe post some more. Thanks Helen for starting it. I think that the whole set-up of the cult was a potential trigger for these kinds of auto-immune disorders, and it is very helpful to know that one isn't the only one - especially in the case of these illnesses which can be quite lonely and depressing because they haven't even been acknowledged by most of the world. Love Disculta

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:46:17 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Disculta Subject: Ouch! Yup! Message:

We've talked about this before and it's always great to hear your thoughts on the subject. I think there are probably thousands of premies and ex-premies with chronic health problems. The thing that outraged me the most when I first started reading the forum, was reading about ashram premies who didn't go the doctor because they didn't want to use ashram funds for that (how's that for setting up the pattern of not believing one is worth caring for), and the whole DECCA fiasco where people suffered liver damage. I feel like Maharaji took these peoples' bodies and sacrified them on the altar of his own narcissim. I really think it's despicable.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 02:47:13 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: Bad effects from meditation attrib to CFS Message:

I found that too. I had a heart attack and felt that at least now the medical authorities would realise that something was wrong with me. A premie friend asked me if I was 'remembering the word' when I thought I was dying. I didn't tell him that nothing was further from my thoughts at that time. As you know, another term used for CSF in Britain is Myalgic Encephelomyelitis (M.E.)and here the brain is directly affected. A couple of years ago I tried doing some regular meditation on the third technique and was appalled when after each meditation, I was extremely nauseous and dizzy and my head was spinning with terible pains in my head, as if my head was going to explode. I was also left with a feeling of total confusion. I didn't pursue the meditation any longer.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 11:49:56 (GMT) From: Patrick (Formerly Anon) Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Bad effects from meditation attrib to CFS Message:

I think some of the meditation techniques can cause bad effects, depending on one's brain chemistry. It wasn't until two years ago when I tried doing some meditation again that I got this perspective. Before then, I had always thought that meditation was something 'good' and something to aspire towards. I agree. There have definitely been times when I have not had the right 'brain chemistry' to tolerate the kind of altered states that mediation triggers. Also sometimes I have been to plain ill to meditate, even if I wanted too. After a fairly long period of stopping meditation altogether, I have been flirting with the practice lately, simply to relax. I have found that it works just fine of course without all the mumbo-jumbo Maharaji 'attitude' in the back of one's mind, also I don't sit under a blanket, paranoid that someone will see me doing the techniques! My non-premie wife is amused to see me sitting bolt upright in bed early in the morning! The other thing is I don't do it religiously or because I 'should' or to keep the evil mind and world at bay. The benefits of a little non-obsessive meditation seem so far to be that when I am thus relaxed I can afford a little more patience with my kids -who are at a trying age right now. I acknowledge that there can be some deeply relaxing effects but no way am I going to ever again project any spiritual ideas or interpretations on this experience, let alone imagine that it is a blessing from Maharaji that I am especially indebted to him for. I am of the opinion that many premies really should absolutely stop meditating for a while just to see how OK they are without it and to get it in perspective. Right now fortunately I am not feeling ill which is good. So far meditation hasn't brought on any physical ill effects - in my earlier post I said that I had experienced this in the past though. Whilst certainly when the brain is 'ecaphalitic' or whatever, there seems to be possibly a detrimental effect from doing the techniques that M taught. I just seemed to feel even more dizzy and tired and generally weird. I don't believe that meditation has the power to calm a mind that is delirious. Physical pain is a total preoccupation it would seem. Many premies I have spoken to who were in mortal danger from heart attacks, illness etc. report that Maharaji and meditation were the last things on their minds. Actually for the ones I have met, some of whom have actually since died, their illness made them question the reality and value of Maharaji and 'Knowledge' and they basically dropped the practice and their belief in him. One actually was so desperate to cure herself from cancer that, finding no solace from knowledge, she became a Christian. I don't know to which God her final prayers were suplicated or whether she ever found peace in herself. Also, I have heard of premies having 'glorious' deaths -going into the light etc. and proclaiming their faith at the end. Historically people display every imaginable reaction to facing their ultimate demise from the professions of faith to the most mundane expressions.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 16:55:44 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: all Subject: UK PWK claims nectar cured him Message:

To throw another endpoint onto the bell curve of this poll, I mention the following. A longtime UK premie who was very sick for years, attributes long Knowledge practice sesions and especially doing 'nectar' as the reason he is alive today. He said all he did for a year or so was practice the techniques. From how he described his ailment, it sounded like Chronic Fatigue. Needless to say, this 'miracle cure' has bound him more closely to M&K. Dr. Postie suspects his strong belief in the healing process and his extreme focus on getting better had a lot to do with it. Impossible to say for certain.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 21:02:30 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Postie Subject: Postie, the talabya yoga technique is used Message:

by yogis to develop determination and will-power. Many of their more weird and wonderful siddhas (magical powers) were developed using it. It is called the ''mother of yogis.'' The PWK cured himself with his will-power and by developing strength and determination.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 20:29:07 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Sir Dave/Patrick Subject: meditation itself bad for central nervous system.. Message:

I never thought of the meditation techniques themselves as contributing to debilitated health. I thought of them as contributing in that we felt driven to *have* to do it, and that it was hard on the body. But you are saying that the techniques themselves compromised the the brain, or central nervous system in some manner. Do you think that the meditation became in some way noxious to you both because your subconscious knew the whole premie thing was killing you, or do you think that the techniques themselves actually had a deleterious effect on the brain? This is really interesting and I hope you'll answer. Anyone else have this reaction? For me, I think the whole dependence on M and learned coping mechanism of meditating to deny problems, caused stress in that our problems didn't go away, they just festered, and became worse. FOr example, we would escape our lives by going to the festivals but the same problems with our jobs and debts and other neglected things would still be there when we returned. And the problems would be worse because we weren't dealign with them, and what would we tend to do? Meditate some more, get into more debt etc. No wonder the world seemed so insurmountable to us. We were in a cycle of distress, a merry go round from which our only 'shelter' appeared to be Guru Maharaji's grace. No wonder so many of us got sick. What makes it even worse is that there is so little medical understanding about these illnesses. And they are very difficult to treat. I wonder if there are any similar studies going on in England that you could be part of? Anyway , thanks so much for your contributions to this thread. Helen

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 22:58:02 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Helen Subject: Hitting myself with a hammer Message:

I think some of the meditation techniques can cause bad effects, depending on one's brain chemistry. It wasn't until two years ago when I tried doing some meditation again that I got this perspective. Before then, I had always thought that meditation was something 'good' and something to aspire towards. About four years ago I had major surgery which further caused problems afterwards due to having had half my thyroid gland removed. Since then my CFS symptoms and brain fog have got worse. And because of this, the meditation was having a more noticable effect on me. But it was a bad effect. Looking at light caused terrible headaches and the third technique the same plus all the rest as I've mentioned above. My meditation while sometimes deep, became a very strange thing where I would go into a trance-like state for over an hour and it would noticably alter my brain chemistry, in a bad way. After the meditation I would be reeling from its effects (as mentioned before) and it was most disturbing and unpleasant. What I learned from this was that meditation is no more 'spiritual' than taking drugs or hitting your head with a hammer. It is a physical thing which causes physical effects. Then I realised that these Hindu guys had taken a physical phenomenon such as meditation and attached all their mumbo jumbo to it and that's what we were spoon-fed in the seventies. There is very little reckognition in Britain about CSF or Myalgic Encephelomyelitis (M.E.) as it is called here. There is also only sparse reckognition about fibromyalgia and even less reckognition about chemical sensitivity. Perhaps in a hundred years time these illnesses will be understood. I guess I'm way ahead of my time.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 04:26:33 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Hitting myself with a hammer Message:

That's wild. It almost makes me wonder if things like prayer are harmful for some people. You know, things that we 'assume' are 'spiritual' things, maybe aren't so good. I hadn't heard the encephilitis connection with CFS at all here in the states. Are you on any medications? I found Elavil in a low dose to be helpful , it helps me sleep and takes the edge off the stress of having a nervous system that's a bit compromised. Take care Sir D. I know that your health is a huge challenge. People don't understand what a huge undertaking it is to simply get through the day when a person has a chronic illness. My hat goes off to you. Helen

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:43:20 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Helen Subject: Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

Hi Helen and everybody, I wanted to get my ''report'' in too. I don't remember a time in my life when I didn't feel aches and pains. Reaching 50 isn't helping, either. After DECA, I was completely broken down emotionally and physically. Yet, my father was a slave driver too. He made me do work that was much too heavy at too young an age--a lot. Three of my 4 sisters have Fibromayalgia. One has CFS. I suffer chronic fatigue, though, it's not an official diagnosis, but I'm chronically tired! I'm chronically stressed. I think that being in M's cult in the way that I was, under so much pressure for extended periods of time, drinking gallons of coffee, no sleep, etc., didn't help me. I'm curious how many ex-premies suffer from PTSD. (Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome), or an Dissociative disorders. In reading about meditation personality cults, dissociation is a common trait among survivors or former cult members. This is due to the very extended periods of time in satsang ''sessions.'' And meditation. Interesting, Be well, everybody! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:51:13 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Cynthia Subject: PTSD definitely Message:

and all the disassociations that go with it. I truly believe these symptoms result for dealing with too much too late. All those years in the cult we stuffed everything and tried to follow the 'path' of devotion etc. I still don't think my wrist back pain etc. is from premiedom though. A poerty vegitarian diet if done right, was healthy for me. I was not sick very often paid attention to vitamins and the right combinations for getting protein etc. The traveling was hard though.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:15:41 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Selene Subject: PTSD definitely...traveling was hard for me, too Message:

Hi Selene, Aside from DECA, I never experienced such burn-out periods of my life than those drives...straight through, no hotel stops, eating grilled cheese sandwiches and french fries all the way. Get to a program, sit all day and all night in satsang. Funny, I never ever wanted to 'do' service at programs. I was just too tired. Then the energy of a program was for me, not ''energizing'' but draining. Then we'd pile into a car and to the same thing all over again, get home, sleep a couple of hours and go to work! I was a marathon driver, too. I feel more secure if I'm driving, so I drove long stretches. Connecticut to Denver is a long drive, to Florida, etc. I've had PTSD for a long time, and I have a dissociative disorder that's way at the end of the spectrum, but it's pretty much under control, at this point. I still dissociate, but have to practice NOT dissociating, and have panic, etc., but for the most part, I know what to do to feel safe and minimize my stress. My PTSD, DID, etc., is attributed mostly to my childhood, but definitely was exacerbated by the cult. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:09:46 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Selene Subject: Count me in for PTSD Message:

but I attribute that to my childhood. I was beaten for years which certainly does a number on the ole psyche. To this day, unexpected very loud noises make me cry, and I go into a fugue for a while afterward.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:14:33 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Monmot Subject: imagine that childhood + cult for 26 years Message:

I know what you mean Monmot. Loud noises and all. when they moved me from my private office into a shared small room with 5 people this summer/fall I LOST it! bad. It went way behond the normal adjustment period even though I like each and every one of the people in there. A new poll should be how many of us came from abuse or some such and right into the cult? for me at age 17.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:26:22 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Selene Subject: imagine that childhood + cult for 26 years Message:

I know what you mean about being thrown in with a bunch of people. It's weird, isn't it? I never associated that with PTSD (guess I was dissociated :>), and to this day, I sit at the end of rows in movie theaters, airplanes, etc., and I get claustrophobic at the drop of a hat. I always check out where the exits are. I joke with my husband that I'm great in emergencies because I've already scoped out how to get out of a place or situation. I think you're correct in your conjecture about the correlation between childhood abuse and cult membership. Probably not 100%, but pretty damn close, I would think. God, being young sure makes us old. :>

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 06:34:03 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Abuse and folks that were impossible to please Message:

Part of the cult thingie for me was that my mother was so hard to please when I was young. It was nigh impossible. Now I realize that she was having a very hard time of it, but as a child, I was continually crushed, until I rebelled. When I a teen until my mid-20's I would become attracted to men who didn't like me, at least not very much. Luckily my friends always liked me and were easy to get along with, so I would just pine over relationships that mostly existed in my head. Pining after something that it unattainable and too perfect for me was a pattern, and especially after being raised Roman Catholic and rebelling against that, I sucked right back into it with the cult. By the time I left the ashram, I kicked a lot of those neuroses goodbye, and was no longer looking for people who told me that I was not worthy. I can thank Maharaji for getting me good and fed up with that. I have not been suicidal since I walked away. What great therapy, eh?

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 10:28:13 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Abuse and getting toughened up Message:

No wonder I took a fancy to you from the start. You said:''When I was a teen until my mid-20's I would become attracted to men who didn't like me, at least not very much.'' Sounds very faggy to me. Yep, the cult toughened this old sissy too. The only time I ever felt suicidal in my life was in 1974 a year after I got K and was involved with the urug in the form of the Palace of Peace in LOndon which was a nightmare of cult bureaucracy straight out of Orwell's 1984. Went to a shrink and found out that I was saner than him. Never looked back.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 20:45:55 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Depression and Relief Message:

Hey you guys, this is all so cheerful! In think I was clinically depressed for much of the final 2-3 years I was in the cult. Then I left, and after a period of about 6 months of relief, I got VERY depressed. That lasted off and on for maybe another 6 months, and then things got a lot better, with some therapy. I can't say I experienced any physical problems because of the cult. One thing I did that I think helped save me during those final few years in the cult was, beginning about 1980, I started running like a crazed maniac. I ran a few miles every morning and every night when I was in Miami, and continued it when I got to San Francisco and then continued it for many years thereafter. I think the running really helped relieve the stress. I think I did it for psychological reasons more than anything else.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 19:26:45 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Helen Subject: chronic pain. old age, organ recitals Message:

No CFS but lots of arthritic old injuries but I won't give you my organ recital. Mine caused by sports and work injuries not Maharaj Jism.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 23:23:40 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: (Sniff) Pass a tissue. I'll start a collection. Message:

We'll see if we can raise enough for a friend of my wife (Dorothy), to bring round a pot of Marmite, goat, hoist, book of fabric samples and Liza Minelli CD. Anth with cryptic recipies for soup,

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 06:39:45 (GMT) From: Brian S Email: None To: AJW Subject: Put me down for twenty bucks anth, Message:

If I eat the soup, Can I keep the hoist?

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 03:02:56 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: AJW Subject: Anth, I'll take the Marmite, goat, hoist, Message:

and book of fabric samples but you can keep the Liza Minelli CD - prefer Jessye Norman.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:25:18 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Helen Subject: CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

CFS et al is caused by a mycoplasm which was developed by the Japanese from the Brucella bacteria. Antibiotics can be effective in the earliest stages, but it's almost never detected then Eveyone has now been exposed to this engineered mycoplasms, thanks to the US government who incorporated Japanese as well as German war criminal scientists, into the UKUSA bio/chem warfare effort. The best thing is to keep your immune system strong and possibly, the application of Bare/Rife resonant frequency therapy. Helen, for you personally, I would suggest getting a good vegetable juicer and using it daily. Also check out Dr. Lorraine Day's website at www.drday.com. I was able to incorporate her health system without needing to adopt her belief system. She's a bit of a bible thumper. Best wishes for a full recovery to you, dearie...

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 20:37:21 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: gerry Subject: Bare/Rife resonant frequency therapy. Message:

Hi Gerry Is this the same as radio frequency therapy?

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 20:52:00 (GMT) From: Brian S Email: None To: Selene Subject: Dr Royal Rife Message:

inventor of the rife frequency generator, and author of the book 'the cancer cure that works' The company ESI out of a small town in upstate New York that used to distribute these systems was shut down by the government several years ago. Are there any known Rife systems or distributors still available today, Anyone? How about the book,is it still in print and/or available?

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:16:22 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Brian S and Selene Subject: Dr Royal Rife, a bit of a correction Message:

Rife did indeed invent the system which uses frequency resonation to destroy microorganisms. I'm not sure how to answer your question, Selene as I'm not sure what you mean by 'radio frquency'. It may be the same thing. The bookThe Cancer Cure that Works was written by Barry Lynes. I've looked into this subject extensively and would be able to construct one of these devices for around $1000.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:53:42 (GMT) From: Brian S Email: None To: gerry Subject: Dr Royal Rife, a bit of a correction, Yes Gerry Message:

You are absoulutely right, Barry Lynes was the author Not Rife himself, See I am getting old, it has been years since I have researched this subject. I wonder if this system would be an effective treatment for the Hep C virus, so many people of all ages are testing positive today. What do you think? Seems logical, any news or testimonials in this area?

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 22:05:22 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Brian S Subject: Dr Royal Rife, a bit of a correction, Yes Gerry Message:

At the lecture I attended, there was a man there who had Hep C and he was given the 'rates' to program the computer which tells the beam ray what to do. I'm probably not using the correct terminolgy here, but I am pretty sure they had the 'rates' for Hep C. They also had a video containing several testimonials from people who had been cured, and one of them was a man with AIDS who had not long to live, and the beam ray turned it around and he's healthy today, if not totally clean of HIV. Other testimonials included people with MS and seriously bad cases of cancer, among others.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:27:07 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: gerry Subject: not sure either Message:

When I did a search on radio frequency surgery I found lots of stuff about it being used for a replacement in laser surgery for eyes and cosmetic surgery as well as for treatment of cancer. I'll need to look into the references to Rife. It may be a takeoff used by conventional medicine now. She was using a conventional med doctor and surgeon.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:08:01 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Brian S Subject: Dr Royal Rife Message:

Brian S: Check out http://www.rifeworks.com There's a company called Bioray/Beamray which is in the process of trying to get gov't approval for the Rife Beam Ray (good luck dealing with the gov't on that one). You can also get the book from that site. The copy I have is written by Barry Lynes entitled 'The Cancer Cure That Worked.' I went to a lecture a few months ago by the man who heads the Bioray/Beamray Corporation. They have these devices available, but given that they don't have gov't approval yet, private owners hold healing sessions in their homes. These healing sessions are called 'Chat Rooms' in order to avoid any problems with the gov't approval process. There was a beam ray device at the lecture, the use of which was demonstrated to us while he spoke. They are in the process of trying to ascertain the remainder of Rife's information which was lost over the years, thereby making the beam ray device close to 100% effective. As it stands now, they have a 90% effective rate, as opposed to some other devices out there. Gerry also knows quite a bit about this stuff, so he might be able to elaborate better than I. It's criminal that some effective healing technologies have been suppressed, although I am well aware that one must be extremely discerning when encountering some of these technologies. It's important to have demonstrable proof of their efficacy, which the Bioray/Beamray Corporation did provide. Hope this helps.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:43:11 (GMT) From: Brian S Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Dr Royal Rife Thanks Monmot, another link Message:

good work Monmot on opening this up, it has been years since I have heard anything about this work. I also Found another link, http://www.rrrs.com/

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:51:58 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Brian S Subject: Thanks Brian S. I'll check it out......nt Message:

mm

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:13:40 (GMT) From: gerry Email: gkl1@techline.com To: Monmot Subject: Dr Royal Rife well put Monmot Message:

Yeah, I can help anyone who wants to put one together... email given above.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 20:57:18 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Brian S Subject: Dr Royal Rife - may not be the same thing Message:

A friend of mine just went into surgery for what she called radio frequency treatments. I am not sure what it does I looked on the net it seems to temporarily deaden a small area of nerves in the afflicted area. They use a needle to go in but no cutting or as they say, invasive surgery.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 00:19:21 (GMT) From: Disculta Email: None To: Selene Subject: Similar to Rife + Question to Gerry Message:

though perhaps not so directly targeted to specific illnesses, is the PAPIMI device, developed by Dr. Pappas, a Greek scientist. I think the website is www.papimi.org. I have used one at a friend's house for a year. At first it caused severe fevers and healing crises and then I seemed to be healed. I had more energy for a few weeks than for 20 years. Then I went abroad and got e-coli, and had to take serious drugs, which don't go with that treatment, so I got out of it. There are amazing testimonials with almost all illnesses with this machine, which uses high magnetic frequencies. Check out the websites! The machines cost $40K but there are several around the U.S. that you can go use at people's houses by joining a user club. I am in the Bay Area and can direct anyone around here if you are interested. Gerry, how would one program a home Rife device to target a mystery virus, if one doesn't know what the virus is? Love Disculta

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 19:04:27 (GMT) From: gerry Email: gkl1@techline.com To: Disculta Subject: Similar to Rife + Question to Gerry Message:

Thanks for the website tip. I'll check it out. As to how to deal with an unknown pathogen, well that's one of the things medical science does well--diagnose disease. They are just lost as to what to do next, that's all. Very poor 'cure' rate, though some drug therapies are effective, but all drugs have side-effects. So I guess the answer is, you need to know what the organism is, and what it's resonant frequency is in order to attack it with the Rife device. However, at the www.rrrs.com website, they talk about twenty frequencies they use on everyone.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 05:35:53 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Disculta Subject: thanks Message:

My risk taking tends to go in other directions and not for everyone. But this all sounds interesting and I'm sure if I were suffering from a serious ailment I'd be looking. thank you.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:29:16 (GMT) From: Brian S Email: None To: Selene Subject: Dr Royal Rife - may not be the same thing Message:

Evidently not, Dr. Royal Raymond Rife, in the early 30's invented a technique that he defined as a way to destroy virus by directing sound waves into the virus at a frequency just above the resonation point of the virus. He called it the Rife Frequency Generator. He seemed to have identified through the use of a light source microscope (a very rare piece of equipment) that each virus had a crystalline frequency identified by color. When the frequency of the sound wave was accelerated just beyound the corresponding frequency of the target virus the virus disinegrated much like the crystal glass on the memorex commercial. Since the frequency was only targeted to the level of the virus it did not affect anything other than the virus itself. Anyway his work and reputation were suppressed by the MDA, for reasons that apparently were money and power motivated.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:31:55 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Brian S Subject: thaks Brian S Message:

I was quite surprised they authorized this procedure for her. She told me it was very new. It seems similar but definitely not the same thing.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:16:17 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Helen Subject: Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

Hi Helen! I've had problems since about 1995 with various joint and muscle and nerve pain. First they assumed it was carpal tunnel since I have keyboarded since 1983. But they ruled that out and called it osteoarthritis. Now I'm seeing a rhumatologist who treats the symptoms as they do with fibromyalgia, etc. It's a tough one but I am not seeing any relationship to being a premie really, I notice it most when I have a huge computing project and let myself get tired. And I get sick to my stomach on every pain pill there is except demerol which they will not give me. So I'm trying to keep my computing equipment at the right height and angles and manage my weight. I KNOW uper body exercise works well or exercise in general. And vitamins. I have yet to see any traditional medical treatment that works really well but there may be one I don't know about.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:14:16 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Helen Subject: Chronic pain - chronic as in occuring from time to Message:

time? Ever since heaving pianos up and down flights of stairs for Divine Sales in the 70s, I've have occasional bouts of severe (and I do mean severe) back pain. Oh, and in belated reply to the other poll - I'm a smoker (rollies), but I don't think M's got anything to do with that.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:44:15 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Helen Subject: Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

I've got Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Multiple chemical sensitivity and Fibromyalgia and have since the early eighties. When I left the cult, I was a wreck and have been like that ever since.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:50:48 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

Nice to see you back here Dave. Was your leaving of EPO a success, or have you just been lurking and managed to see this thread? Do you think there was any connection between the service you did and lifestyle you lead as a premie which helped kick off the conditions? In my case, I'm not sure, and have never associated them before, but sometimes now I wonder.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 23:56:01 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Joy Subject: My very condensed journey Message:

Yes, there was a definite correlation between being in the cult and my health problems. I remember going for an interview for a job in 1973 when I had just joined an ashram. I had to take a medical and the doctor said to me, 'How come you're so fit?' You see, I had been a racing cyclist from 1967 to 1971 and was in excellent condition, even though in 1973 I hadn't trained for two years. Then there were years of punishing myself both physically and mentally and not eating a substantial diet and not getting enough sleep and rest. By 1978 the strain was telling and I was beginning to get bouts of chronic fatigue and by 1980 these bouts were getting more recurrent. By then I was going all out to be Maharaji's devotee and punishing myself unbelievably, doing service all the time, working too and only snatching a few hours sleep every night. By 1983 I was a wreck and the creeping chronic fatigue finally took over completely after a severe bout of flu and I was very ill for the whole of 1984 and have never recovered since. I made a wrong turn and should have kept to my healthy lifestyle that I had before I 'came to knowledge'. I do look in here now and then and this thread caught my eye, hence my post, since the thread's relevant to me. Otherwise, I don't feel that I've got too much to contribute although I have lifted a few posts in the last week and put them on The Truth about Maharaji. I still have the last email you sent to me and I do want to talk to you and I'm sorry I haven't done so quicker. Not very polite, on my part. I have been beset with personal and financial difficulties and I wanted to feel more together when I spoke to you. But now I realise that I might have to wait until the next world before I feel more together so I'll be in touch soon.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:54:55 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Joy Subject: Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

Hi Joy - I think CFS is definitely aggravated by stress. I have had it all my life (first diagnosed with a 'mono-type virus' at age 11), and the only thing that works for me in controlling it is to try and reduce the stress level in my life. It's sort of an indicator that I am trying to do too much. So I definitely believe that the long hours, lack of sleep, and mental stress of being involved with M could aggravate it considerably - to the point where it could become crippling. By the way, I believe CFS IS a virus - just hope that one of these days they figure out what to do about it. It's no fun to live with it. Take care - Katie

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:59:26 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Katie Subject: CFS = Virus Message:

Hi Katie. Yes, I believe CFS is a virus also. Why else would glands swell up when you over-exert? It's a sort of low-level flu-like virus, in my experience of having it 6 years now. My mother had mono when I was a child, maybe I got it then, who knows? If anyone wants to read a really interesting 800 page book about CFS (it reads better than a novel and is difficult to put down), Osler's Web is very enlightening. I can't remember the woman's name who wrote it, though, but it is really a dynamite read about the politics and nature of it all.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 19:34:23 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Joy Subject: Osler's Web was written by Hillary Johnson Message:

It IS an incredible read,I agree, but I like to read books about the plague, flu epidemics, biowarfare etc. I'm glad Helen brought this up because I've noticed that a fair amount of people have mentioned physical ailments in their posts and journeys. I've thought and wondered about this phenomenon a lot. I have a friend who's an ex who had serious problems with CFS, among other illnesses. She now has MS, which went undiagnosed for 18 months because the doctors insisted that it was 'all in her mind.' I haven't had any chronic problems, but I did almost die from a very rare parasite that eventually was diagnosed as being found only in Hawaii and India. I worked at DECA for about six months, and got sick right after I left Miami. I've always assumed I picked up the parasite at DECA from the Indians who would make us meals occasionally. I got down to 85 lbs. (at 5'8') before I finally went to a naturopath who used radionics (an alternative diagnostic tool banned in the U.S.) to finally figure out what was wrong with me. I cam pretty close to shucking off my mortal coil, that's for sure. I would, and do, safely assume that I was psychologically and physically susceptible to picking up such a weird disease because I had absolutely no regard for myself from practicing years of self-denial on every level while a premie. I know Cynthia (who's out of town) and Disculta have mentioned being very sick also.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:02:28 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Joy Subject: CFS = Virus Message:

Hi Joy - Well, I agree, but a lot of doctors don't. Ditto for fibromyalgia. Many medical professionals think both CFS and fibromylagia are psychosomatic. BTW, I just read the disability accomodation procedures for students at the university I work at, and the university includes CFS and fibromylagia as valid disabilities - so there is hope. The book sounds good - but maybe depressing? Take care, Katie

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 01:50:18 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Katie Subject: CFS = Virus Message:

Hi Katie. Yes, it is depressing if only in that the government's response to this illness has been to deny and try and sweep it under the carpet as psychological. There is a huge disinformation campaign. Ditto for the Gulf War Veterans who are ill. Chemical companies and their megabucks are behind the disinformation campaign. Read Osler's for the inside story, it's chilling how they can do this. And as for doctors who think it's psyhological, they don't get to wake up with aching muscles head to toe each morning and get swollen glands when they exercise and if they did they'd probably sing a different tune. CFS and Multiple Chemical Sensitivity are what's known as emerging disabilities. Which means the medical science has not figured out yet the actual physical mechanisms behind them, but they will. At which time they will hopefully get more respect. In the meanwhile we have to bear the indignity of psychomatic diagnoses, which can add a huge amount of stress to an already ill person. Did you know that diabetes was considered psychosomatic by the medical profession until they finally figured out the actual physical cause? Is this a fair thing to do to a sick person, to assume their illness is mental until proven otherwise? Why not actually respect the person's story and symptoms until it's better understood, a basic human right? I'm not really ranting at you, but at the medical profession in general for their obstinacy and bull-headedness when it comes to these illnesses. Actually, CFS is making some headway and finally starting to get some respect due to the numbers of people who are ill and lots and lots of money and research being done, but MCS is really the dog of the illnesses in that there's very little money and research behind it. But maybe with all the Gulf War vets ill from chemical exposures that might change. Though I wouldn't count on it, the chemical companies very existence and continued profits depend on MCS NOT being a legitimate illness! P.S. I still don't have my dates back, the refresh button does nothing. Any further suggestions?

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 17:39:24 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joy/Katie Subject: 'It's all in your head' Message:

Dear Joy and Katie, I was really worried when I decided to be a participant in the Georgetown study that the skill set they were teaching us would be driven by a psychosomatic model. But not so AT ALL!! They very much recognize fibromyalgia as a disease and as very real pain and seem to really understand what it's like to live with it. It really is horrible to hear, 'It's all in your head.' I, too, wish that those types of people could walk in my shoes during a flare up and see how it is. How it is to have slurred speech or have memory problems, or dropping things because you're in so much pain that your muscles won't cooperate. One thing that the study addresses is how living with the pain is actually exacerbated when we add another level of shame to not being as high functioning as we'd like to be. I run this trip on myself all the time (beating myself up for being slow, etc), but I am trying to stop doing it. It doesn't help. I knew a woman with Gulf War syndrome. When I first met her I knew she was in terrible pain because she was leaning against the wall to sort of prop herself up (I do this alot too). And her speech is somewhat slurred. Her eyes don't make tears, her reproductive organs are shot (she has horrible periods), she has terrible muscle pain. The military pronounced her 75% disabled yet the military-funded studies on GWS haven't come up with much--gee, could they be a bit biased??? The study I am involved in is also for Gulf War syndrome patients. I guess we have to teach people that these conditions are real and teach them our limitations. People who don't 'get it' are maybe not the best people to be around. Like I said to Sir D, getting through the day is an incredible accomplishment for someone with a physical or mental illness. I honor you. Take care. Helen

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 17:13:06 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Joy Subject: CFS = Virus Message:

Hi Joy - The rant is fine - I get so mad at doctors who tell me everything is psychosomatic. Women especially hear this constantly. One doctor told me my thyroid disease was psychosomatic (!) - fortunately I made him do some tests and then got to see an endicrinologist who was able to diagnose it in about 5 seconds (!!). I also agree with you about MCS - I don't think anyone understands the cumulative effect of the kind of exposure to chemicals that we live with day to day. P.S. Re the dates on the forum - that happens to me when I do not let the whole page load - to 'Document Done' before clicking on a post. I am not the greatest at computers (I let Brian figure it out for me!), so other people might have better suggestions.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:41:30 (GMT) From: Joy Email: joy52@earthlink.net To: Helen Subject: Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

Hi Helen. I had my first bout of chronic fatigue syndrome back in 1979 when I was at SHIP in Westlake Village, California. Everyone else was in there and doing service at the crack of dawn, but I always had to take the last car in around 10:30, which was always with the guys that had stayed up half the night doing service down in the video dept. (they really knew how to burn the midnight oil). But I'd gone to bed at a normal time, just couldn't get moving any earlier. Then also had to take a nap after lunch under my drawing board, on the floor. I shared an office with David Davis, who designed the publications. Poor David passed away a few years ago from leukemia, probably induced from breathing in the fumes from his airbrush painting machine. He did a lot of airbrushing (he was very good). That's just my assessment. Come to think of it, that may be why I started CFS at that time, it was a small, unventilated office. Before that, for many years in Denver, I worked with the typesetting equipment which had a photographic developing bath. I remember the chemicals eating into my fingers and eroding the skin away, as I touched it so much. Anyhow, I was still young and relatively healthy so shook off the CFS at that time after seeing a good naturopath. It didin't return until 1994, along with pretty serious Multiple Chemical Sensitivity and Fibromyalgia. All three are still with me today. I've never thought of them as a legacy of the guru, just my own inherited tendencies towards the illnesses in combination with working in tight buildings and around chemicals, but who knows? Perhaps my burnout schedule in my 20s helped set the stage for these illnesses? The biggest burnout was the nonstop journeys in cars to festivals, usually in Miami. Denver was pretty much in the center of the country, so it was a l-o-n-g journey to get to Miami (42 hours with only bathroom/meal breaks). We did it many times, usually five to a car, as well as LA, Portland, New York, Montreal. To this day I have no stamina for long-distance driving whatsoever, as a result. Anyhow, interesting poll and I'd be curious to see what others report. Disculta, are you out there?? Sir Dave?

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:37:57 (GMT) From: JTF Email: None To: Helen Subject: Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

..diagnosed as having chronic depression-ok now thanks to medication .....am tired an awful lot-no diagnosis as I wouldn't know how to describe this to doctor since physical indicated no blood problems typical of people still in and exiting any foolish cult like this rawat cult

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 01:37:33 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: everyone Subject: Another poll--CFS, autoimmune, chronic pain Message:

WOW! Thanks everyone for your posts. I fractured my back while going through the incredibly grueling process of being an aspirant for 2 years. I sat through satsangs when I was in incredible pain and I really feel like the initiators were torturing me. Apparently I wasn't humble enough and was too intellectual. Anyway--long story short, that's when the fibromyalgia started. I do think that being a premie contributed to my health problems. ALthough I never was one for doing alot of service (could never grasp the concept of how service to M was holier than service to fellow humans), traveling to those goofy festivals and feeling chronically at war between what I wanted to do and what I felt I should be doing, etc set up this constant 'nervous system arousal' that can contribute to chronic pain and fatigue. Paying attention to the pain and 'pacing', which is taking a break before the pain becomes unbearable, is what I am learning to do in this study at Georgetown U. They also teach us that building in fun time isn't a frill but a MUST. People who are chronically fatigued never feel caught up so they drive themselves that much harder when they aren't resting, to catch up on everything. The skill of pacing has really helped me. Taking breaks and giving myself 'treats' in between bouts of activity. It's sort of recalibrating the nervous system. I also support nutritional research, yoga, acupuncture whatever helps people, but this behavioral-cognitive pain management approach is really working for me. At the bottom of any endeavor to heal ourselves or improve the quality of our lives is knowing that we are worth the effort and time.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 02:06:32 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Helen Subject: Yes, Fun is a Necessity, Not Trivial Message:

At one point in my attempts to 'catch-up' on my life due to spending so many years in premie-dumb, I was working 50 hours a week, while finishing college full-time at night. Every quarter, I signed up for a class in the Santa Barbara satellite of the university I attended so I could get away on the weekends. I also gave myself Friday and Saturday nights 'off' where I allowed myself to not have to think about all the reading I had to do and all the papers I had to write. When you're driven, as it appears that many of us on the forum are, it's vital to schedule fun time. Thanks, Helem, for starting this poll thread. It's very interesting to read everyone's experiences. It also seems that many of us had 'diseases' the medical establishment had difficulty diagnosing.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 02:19:20 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Yes, Fun is a Necessity, Not Trivial Message:

Yes part of the feeling of never being caught up, is that developmentally I lost a lot of years. So I am trying to catch up career-wise, financially, and trying to act my age (whatever that means). So I did the grad school while working full time thing (bad idea) etc. But I didn't schedule days off like you did--good plan. Now I am learning how to live a more normal life (not easy to do in the hectic DC area) and I just have to live with the fact that I can't make up those lost years. Like Sir D said, if I waited til I felt more together to do stuff, I would have to wait for my next life. SOmething the doctor in the study says is that the entire culture is headed for one big stress related illness. There is so much pressure to go go go, do more more more, drive drive drive. The nervous system can only take so much. And people drive their kids really hard too! A little of that is appropriate but so much of the time the parents see their kob as being the kid's 'agent' pushing them on towards success! Blech. Ok, speaking of fun, time to watch Gladiator. GOt to see what all the fuss about Russel Crowe is about.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 06:56:47 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Helen Subject: So, Helen, Whaddya think of Russell? Message:

I'm not much of a drooler overall :->, but I DO like to gaze upon Russell Crowe. I liked Gladiator, 900 lb. tiger and all, but the ending was like a Chanel ad. Take care M

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 17:22:03 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Gladiator (ot) Message:

I am completely in love with anything Ridley Scott makes. I own a copy of Bladerunner for example. I loved the dreamy, trippy atmospherics, even though the ending was a 'Chanel ad'--too funny. Half way into the film , I said to my husband, 'The decision has been determined--Russel Crowe is a hottie.' He reminds me of an awake George Cloony. Very appealing. Of course the curiosity is heightened by the news about Meg Ryan running off with him and leaving Dennis Quaid (another appealing man) and her 8 year old, which I find pretty despicable to be perfectly honest. The gladiator life was pretty sickening, eh? Those Romans sure were decadent. All those wasted lives. Yuck. I wonder how true to life the gladiator scenes were?

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:34:53 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Helen Subject: Gladiator (ot) Message:

I love Blade Runner also. It's the only movie I've seen about ten times, and I rarely read a book or see a movie more than once. Ridley Scott used to be a director of commercials and, in fact, was famous for his Chanel ads. His films are such a visual treat, esp. Blade Runner, but there's usually a Chanel ad thrown in somewhere which I find amusing. Russell Crowe is known as being somewhat of a ladies' man, so I was surprised that Meg Ryan depth-bombed her life the way she did, and from what I hear of the rumor mill (I live in L.A. where rumors spread faster than ebola), Meg and Russell aren't together anymore. I just hope is was worth it for her. Maybe life on an outback ranch couldn't compare to a Santa Monica manse. :-> I think a lot of the gladiator scenes are fairly true to life except, of course, throwing off a 900 lb. lion who's clinging to your back. I think the gladiator fights back then were the Roman equivalent to contemporary cock fights--fight to the death. Joaquin Phoenix is a treat to watch also. If you like Joaquin at all, catch him in The Yards and also in Quills with Geoffrey Rush, who's a wonderful actor also (and, refreshingly, a very nice guy in real life). Guess we got off topic here (books and movies are my faves), but I want to thank you for bringing up this topic. Although I don't suffer from chronic pain, I give kudos to those who manage it so apparently well. Ours is a society which denies death and marginalizes illness.

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:39:55 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Monmot Subject: Gladiator (ot) Message:

Joaquin Phoenix is someone whose work I am not familiar with. I will check him out. That Marquis de Sade movie scares me, so I haven't seen it (this coming from the woman who didn't mind watching people brutally stabbed and beheaded in the gladiator ring as long as it had that 'Chanel look.') I liked Geoffrey Rush alot in 'Shine.' The Indie 500 accident where that race car driver was killed reminds me a bit of a gladiator mentality except the drivers do it voluntarily. I guess auto racing wouldn't be fun if it wasn't incredibly high risk, still it seems so sad. What's the gossip on Tom and Nicole? I was reading People magazine in the check out line and it said Tom was 'scorching the earth' and not looking back. Do I need to get a life or what? (: Thanks for your comments about this thread. I agree that illness and death are sort of a taboo subjects. Enjoyed yakking with ya! Helen

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 04:48:14 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Helen Subject: I posted an answer before I had read everybody Message:

else's posts. Yes, I had a disease which I attribute to stress - the stress of the brainwashed part of me spending all my money and going into debt to see the urug and the conflict of another part of me saying it was all BS. For ten years I had a misdiagnosed disease - internal bleeding etc until my guts popped two years ago and I ended up with my colon pulled through a hole in my abdomen wall through which you have to shit into a plastic bag. The asshole is a very under-rated organ and very efficiently designed.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 20:09:38 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: I posted an answer before I had read everybody Message:

Yes I agree that there was alot of stress in being a premie, and the 'split' caused alot of distress which manifested physically for alot of us. I forgot to mention digestive, or bowel/colon problems but those definitely go along with this. Man I do agree with you that the colon is an underrated organ. My youngest sister's sister in law is having her entire colon removed in a few weeks. I wonder what the adjustment was like for you. You seem so vital and vibrant. Anyway, thanks for contributing to this thread. I really appreciate it. I got diagnosed with Irritable bowel syndrome and had to have a colonoscopy. That was bad enough. Anyway thanks.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 02:11:34 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Helen Subject: Helen, then your sister in law will have to have Message:

an ileostomy which is much more difficult than a colostomy because the digestive juices eat away at the stoma if it was not correctly engineered by the surgeon. Once she has had the surgery and recovered sufficiently to have a bit of a laugh remind me again and I'll send you the url for my colostomy site. I learned that human beings can survive with anything. I always used to wonder how quadraplegics or blind people coped. Now I know - you get used to handicaps. It has also made me more sympathetic to people with chronic illnesses. Before I would say, ''Oh, don't give me an organ recital please.'' Or tell people that I was too poor to have illnesses. Very hard and unsympathetic.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 04:39:42 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Helen, then your sister in law will have to have Message:

Yeah it's humbling to have health problems. Noone really wants to hear about them, which is understandable. I am a stoic and a strong little soldier but that gets old too. It's a reality and we all have to be a little more sympathetic about it especially as we all get older and our body parts start falling apart.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 22:26:04 (GMT) From: phanatical philostine Email: None To: Helen Subject: I posted an answer before I had read everybody Message:

Helen I don't know if you eat meat or dairy but both of these are bad for you over all and are particularly hard on the intestines. Fresh vegetable juices and salads are the cure. Gerry the born again vegan

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 04:35:07 (GMT) From: Dairy Donut Diana Email: None To: phanatical philostine Subject: I posted an answer before I had read everybody Message:

Gerry, I never felt better than when I was a macrobiotic. But in the world of parenthood McDonald's and pizza calls loudly to me. McDonald's calls 'You are tired, you are exhausted, you have a cranky child in the back seat, turn the steering wheel, that's it, now go through the drive thru, come unto me, who's your daddy?' Fortunately I eat enough veggies, salads and fruits to choke a horse. Sugar coffee and white flour are my big culprits. Sugar is definitely like a gerbil on crack in my brain! Helen

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:57:00 (GMT) From: Satanic Priestess Email: None To: Dairy Donut Diana Subject: My favorite breakfast food Message:

I have David Smith for breakfast every day. Builds strong bones in 50 ways. EPO Satanic Priestess

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Date: Tues, Feb 20, 2001 at 01:49:12 (GMT) From: Hannibal Lector Email: None To: Satanic Priestess Subject: My favorite breakfast food Message:

Sounds delish, dearie. May I nibble on your ear? Yummy! (Devilishly charming grin) -helen

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 14:20:56 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Loaf's thoughts +*BONGOs post from below *REPOSTED Message:

I was musing (as I do from time to time) how M has made PWKs and aspirants very vulnerable. And himself very rich. (and also possibly why the mechanics and manipulation of it all are now visible for the first time...) As a premie I was proud of his wealth. I WANTED him to have a jet - and as many cars as we seemed to want to give him. His success WAS MY success. His mansion was MY mansion. His jet , MY Jet. How did this state of affairs come about - that I was not in a postion to defend myself from any 'milking' - beit emotional or financial - but moreso that I actively encouraged it ?! Because His IMAGE had taken the place of my own Inner self Image of Success. Practicing Knowledge is akin to self-hypnosis especially when accompanied by even subtle suggestions such as 'gratitude' 'gift' 'master' etc. Anyhow I was pondering these matters when I came across a thread below in which BONGO disects some of the issues at hand - and I thought it interesting enough to save it from going 'over the edge'. here is BONGO : Economic point taken Nigel. But I think there's an extra nasty dimension to this. As prems we bought into an indian guru system which relies completely on the live physical presence of a personal master-ideal for village life.(bless us) M., megalo-saggitarian-expansive-optimist that he is, simply attempted to ship the whole dynamic out West. Why not? Just apply jets, multi residences, technology etc, keep pumping it up. For years I ran from pillar to post to be with 'him' at festivals-and 'He' was there. The man was there, albeit only in stage persona, but the meditation/guru system held together. Once the Guru starts peddling an image of himself, a likeness of the guru, as part of the guru/meditation dynamic, the system comes under pressure I think. The problem is one of image of self, and image of guru. Under the influence of meditation the student's self-picture is shaken. He reaches out to the guru personally. Fine. But if the guru has retreated behind an image, pressure recoils on the student. His shaky self-image forces him/her to focus on what the guru has left behind-a mere ikon. The student knows it to be a likeness, and then the whole thing turns into a hall of mirrors. The wobbly student image is free to clothe the guru image in whatever local symbols demonstrate power, security and glory etc. needed to stabilize the whole panto. Today that means multi-national, pan-cultural, techno-super-rich-blah blah blah.(consensus rules) Not only is the vulnerable student image freed to maintain/create the gurus appearances, he probably feels utterly compelled to. In other words in the absence of a guru, you are warmly invited to build one and as impressive a one as possible please, and let the whole world see it. I joined up on a personal-guru-only ticket back in 74. I weathered the vids. era because of much international guru chasing, and also because the content of the videos depicted 'festival' situations that I could relate to and had been present at. Today's situation represents an abstraction I dislike, though I can see how it fits cosily into present psych-social trends. Personally I decline Maharaji's invitation to invest further in his vision of himself. Premies are making themselves vulnerable, by meditating as instructed, and staring at abstract images. I think Elan Vital are making capital out of this. Elan Vital recently sent me a picture of M. and some blurb. In among a flurry of rawatish enthusiasm are the words 'Bring on the master;you rest.' What a formula for disaster that now appears to me to be. That kind of rest I can do without. Bongo

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 22:16:59 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Thanks for rescuing this, Oafster ji Message:

I was a bit startled how Bongo produced this great articulate post, mid-thread, in reponse to some fairly flippant observation I'd made on something-or-other (as I am wont..)

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 12:11:02 (GMT) From: Bongo Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Thanks for rescuing this, Oafster ji Message:

Dear Nigel and Loafing man, How courteous you are! Thanks. I just let fly cos I was in the mood and in front of a friends pc. Apologies to Nigel for using his post as a springboard, but if it was appreciated then all's well. Lurkers read this stuff and presumably it affects them in the end. I think the post from Bin Liner was pretty articulate too. As he puts it: 'We got shafted' Love Bongo.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 01:42:35 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Loaf/Bongo Subject: His jet , my jet ... we were on a mission Message:

from God. Now God's incarnation says he didn't really mean that , in fact he never said it , & he can still turn you on to God because now he's incarnate on a strip of magnetic tape. We got shafted. & who's fault was that . HIS .. he pulled the con. Not yours.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 03:33:51 (GMT) From: Media Resource Team Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Talking of getting hosed....... Message:

...at Amaroo, the MRT is grateful to the anonymous sender of this picture story from an unnamed magazine, circa 1976: Squirt Gun Guru Sprays His Followers in Miami The accompanying text on the photo is a little hard to read, so here it is in full: 'When last in the public eye, in the mid-seventies, guru Maharaj Ji was feuding with his mother, who disowned him for being corrupted by Western ways. Since then the pudgy Perfect Master and Lord of the Universe, now 21, has been running his Divine Light Mission (which claims 15,000 followers in North America), driving his Maserati, Jensen and Rolls Royce and watching a lot of TV at his $600,000 Malibu estate. Two years ago he became an American citizen, a process accelerated by his marriage at age of 16 to his blond secretary. Their only child, a daughter, is four. Recently, the Maharaj Ji moved his mission control center from Denver to Miami, where this flashiest of Indian gurus rented the Orange bowl for a love festival. Later he got down to serious preaching at the Miami Beach Convention Center, where for $35 initiates got to kiss his feet and donate gifts.' Anybody identify either themselves(!) or the magazine it came from?

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 15:35:04 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Media Resource Team Subject: ...more like getting pissed on from a great height Message:

I mean, there's watersports and there's ... watersports

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:35:56 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Media Resource Team Subject: Life magazine in 78...nt Message:

sfgms

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:36:52 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: bill Subject: Life magazine in 79...nt Message:

,bn

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 05:30:16 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Media Resource Team Subject: Is it just me, or... Message:

...isn't that the most pornographic picture you've ever seen? I am inspired to share with you some godawful teenage purple prose that I wrote the night after the pictured event. I'm pretty sure that's me in the picture, lower left, just above the 'G' in Guru. Warning! Reading the following words may be hazardous to your health!!! 'I looked straight up into His face looking down at me. I reached up with both my arms, on tiptoe in the mud, and with all my heart and soul in my eyes and voice begged - more than begged - actually screamed to Him PLEASE, MAHARAJ JI, PLEASE, PLEASE and He let me have it, square in the face, hard, lovely colored water of love, and I never blinked just kept reaching up toward Him with more love than I knew I could feel and still live, heart exploding in that timeless instant/eternity, and I actually screamed to Him MORE, MORE, MAHARAJ JI, PLEASE MORE and He kept shooting me in the face with His high-pressure hose and I kept shouting MORE and He was looking in my eyes and I was looking in His eyes and He kept shooting me and I kept shouting MORE and stretching my arms up to Him and I never blinked when the water hit me in the face because He was looking at me and I was looking at Him... and He kept shooting me and I kept shouting MORE and the sun was so bright and He was so close and He was laughing and I was just loving Him, and He was all mine and I was all His for that whole instant/eternity.'

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 07:25:47 (GMT) From: Wm Email: None To: Babs Subject: its you Message:

Hi Babs, I always remember telling you 'I love you' when you were spazzing at the ashram,,, we had our days. of course you remember me, drinking chi in the kitchen with the Bear, I go by, Tommy, but keep that under your hat. I won't post here often because I have an avoidance problem with answering to myself, answering to someone else? forgetaboutit. Wm

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 10:31:36 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Wm Subject: Wm, now you've made us all want to know more you Message:

You sound so....mysterious and private.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:20:22 (GMT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Babs Subject: The train is now entering the tunnel.... Message:

If this were a 30s flick, your prose would be the voice over to the train entering the tunnel. ;-)) I remember thinking and internally groveling that same way, and because I could never submit 100%, by the grace of some prescient survival instinct, those prayers would become more and more contorted while I tried to reduce myself to zero. If mind over matter were that easy, I think most of us would be dead now. Luckily for me, there was always a detached part of me sitting up in the corner of my mind just observing, never submitting. Sort of like watching yourself watch... I see my (former) friend Yolande Maretz in the pic. She's the one in the center of the photo with her arms up. I think I see myself in the far right corner of the pic, because I was 'doing security' and in the front row just a few people down from Yolande. Phew! I got hit so hard with the water that it basically ripped my t-shirt in two. Such watery grace... Also, some years later, I was researching cameras and one day I opened up a brochure for a Canon, there was this huge picture of a group of people at Holi, eyes upturned adoringly, dripping a rainbow of colors. I guess Canon used the photo to display the color capability of their cameras. That was tres weird.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 02:10:15 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Monmot Subject: The train is now entering the tunnel.... Message:

Yeah there was part of me that was detached too, like a sociologist surveying the scene. That was the healthy part. That is wild about that Canon ad. That is too weird. Maybe it's just me, but I would think that pictures of blissed out premies would *not* sell products.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 07:46:29 (GMT) From: Brian S Email: None To: Babs Subject: Is it just me, or... I Remember Message:

getting hit square in the face and body with both barrells. I made sure that I got as close as I could and took as big a dose as I could get. I somehow thought that I was going to get blasted into some sort of Samadi or Nirvana or some cosmic place of consciousness. I remember my eyes burning like hell for hours as the force of the water pierced its way into and around my eyelids and eyesockets. I also recall feeling a little stupid after all I got from getting sprayed in the face by the 'Lord' were sore eyes and nothing else. And stupider still for pretending like I got some bigger deal out of this mucking about with the rest of my premie partners in peer pressure crime. You know the drill, the wows, the oohs, aahs, the all knowing blissed out insider expressions the desparate need to reinforce some meaning to this whole fiasco though some sort of mutual grasping. The water saturated all of our clothes and colored our pocket paper money with this physcydelic tied dyed effect. Every where we went and spent money for the remainder of the festival that money kept recyling itself back to us and the merchants were getting really strange about it. One guy at this convienience store said that this money was going to be destroyed and taken out of circulation when we got through with our fun and games and we were all guilty of defacing government currency and property. That didn't stop him from accepting the tainted bills for payment of the fruit and snacks we were buying though. I guess greed comes in many colors. I went back to the hotel room and took a real shower, Wow, what a way to spend a weekend

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 06:20:55 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Brian S Subject: Blue contact lenses Message:

You just reminded me -- I had soft contact lenses and they turned a lurid deep electric blue at one of the Holi festivals. I remember riding back on the plane and the stewardesses were fascinated.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 07:01:48 (GMT) From: Brian S Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Blue contact lenses/what a pretty sight you must Message:

been, My eyes turned bloodshot and I looked like I had been on a weeks drinking/drug binge. Not quite so facinating to those whom I encountered. I am certain that I was suspected of being up to some mischief other than seeking salvation from the alledged Lord of the universe. No sir... I was not smoking or drinking or injesting anything illegal, my eyes are bloodshot because, you see this guy who is supposed to be the Lord sprayed me.... oh never mind

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:22:59 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Brian S Subject: Is it just me, or... I Remember Message:

I love these stories of how the locals at these festivals took it all in. Being in Miami several times, I remember going to those delis and eating bagels and cream cheese and all the white haired ladies staring at us. Their fear of us was less than our contempt for them I am sure, after all the poor lost ones didn't have knowledge.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 06:52:41 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Babs Subject: Thanks for the memories ... Message:

It is just like those fantasy sick puppy teenage crushes we had on movie stars, rock stars, or some boy in my class who never gave a rat's ass. Been there. Maharaji gave me the creeps though, looking at that picture. I thought of the bliss of the crowd and remembered a gimmer of how it felt to be there, and I looked at the picture (I knew it so well, and so many like it) and he looks really strange. I had to put myself into some divine otherwordly state to have a connection with him. I never did find him physically attractive and honestly never once fantasized so much as a kiss, let alone anything (ugh) more. I guess I didn't see him as a man. There were very few women in the ashrams that did, at least mention it openly to me -- I only remember one. I think that was part of the bhakti thing. I really got him mixed up with the holy name, music, light, nectar like he wasn't really a person. Frankly, it is really hard to reconstruct it. You seem to be doing a good job on your end. I have some crucial pieces blanked out (the part that made any of it believable?). Keep it coming, Babs!

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:19:16 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Thanks for the memories ... Message:

Yeah I think the 'connection' with M is a psyched up mental state caused by conditioning ourselves to associate that with him. It was a pretty easy gig for him, if you think about it. We associated everything positive and blissful with him and he didn't have to do anything to earn that sort of adoration, except for the occasional festival/board meeting. 'Keeping in touch' with the premies to feed the flame a little and then he could go back to biz as usual--living a cushy lifestyle. We did all the work of psyching ourselves up and excluding every other sort of thought from our brains. A very good gig indeed for him!

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 07:10:10 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Francesca Subject: The only reason I can remember all this stuff Message:

...is because I wrote it down back then. Keeping a journal was only 'half-smilingly half-tolerated' by my ashram supervisors; but I think keeping a journal was the only thing that kept me from going all the way over the edge into the land of no return, know what I mean?

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 00:15:54 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Babs Subject: Wise indeed to keep your own counsel! n/t Message:

raw rat fat!

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 05:53:04 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Babs Subject: Is it just me, or... Message:

Babs, You are right, that sounds like it's right out of a movie rated XXX. You're a brave soul to share these diary entries with us. Keep 'em coming. Looking at that picture gives me a really creepy feeling, like a Jonestown kind of chill. Maharaji looks like he's the only one having any fun because he has all the power. He looks like he is really enjoying the power of it, I don't see the love there anywhere. Did you really ever feel like he loved you? What do you think that was? I never felt like he loved me, I sure wanted to feel that, but it was kind of a one way relationship! I was there, but would rather forget. The car ride down to Fla alone with 5 or so other spaced out premies is a nightmare buried in my subconscious. Bole shri, hiel hitler and all that rot.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 06:16:32 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Helen Subject: What a dirty mind helen! LOL Message:

That is what I thought too while reading it. Now is two of us. WHAT A HOSE! lol LUV U

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:26:38 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: SB Subject: J-M has some even more pornographic Holi pics Message:

Remember, SB? (The magazine my cat threw up on?) They were in a premie publication and whoever chose them obviously thought that ANY pose Maharaji took was beautiful. P.S. to Babs - Thanks for sharing the journal entry. I never got that far into devotion (thank god) but I definitely hung around people who did. It resulted from being cut off from human relationships - because they were 'lesser' - don't you think?

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 23:25:29 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Katie Subject: I have forgotten about that Message:

Even cats know maharaji is crap. The cat was looking at Lard's face and it provoked him a good vomit. What a smart cat you have! That was funny. Thanks for the remindin.' Hope all is good.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 17:21:31 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: SB Subject: Hi SB (ot) Message:

Hope all is well with you too. (And I hope J-M will put some of those pics on line - remember the ones of M's face with black and red dye running all over it? Or the ones of M from behind?) Everything is OK here - Brian found out he had cataracts and was literally going blind. He's had one surgery already - worked well, and is having the second one on Monday. He still likes me though, even though he can actually see out of one eye :). Love, Katie

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 23:23:45 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hi SB (ot) Message:

Sorry to hear that. I'll e-mail you soon. I have many of Holi pictures too. They should be online. I'll e-mail JM about them.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 15:52:24 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: SB Subject: What a dirty mind helen! LOL Message:

'More more more' she cried, as he poured oozy icky stuff all over her face. But the liquid wasn't viscous, it was watery. 'Why, this is WATER, colored water,' she remarked indignantly. And then retrieving her clothes from the corner of his room she added, 'You're not a man at all, you're just someone with a wee little pee pee taking advantage of blondes like me.' She slammed the door behind her. ALl apologies to Babs for my hallucination. (: Helen

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 00:11:03 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Helen Subject: Please, more, more!! Message:

That is fantastic! Good writting. LOLOLOL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 04:51:56 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: SB Subject: your wish is my command Message:

The beautiful nubile blond chosen to be Maharaji's blond du jour nervously walked into the room. Maharaji offered her a glass of wine and chatted with her in his high pitched Michael Jackson voice. Still high off the festival vibes, she thought him charming and disarming at first, although as he undressed his disproportionate body was jarring--he was as wide sideways as he was tall. Sex was a little awkward and rather pedestrian. It was surreal to hear the Lord pass gas, and experience other natural human sounds and smells. Later as she stumbled back to her hotel room, she felt utter confusion rack her body. The Maharaji who had occupied the throne in her mind was nothing like this man. The 2 Maharajis were two separate entities altogether. The Maharaji in her mind was pure, perfect. He would never do anything like this, he had no needs. Now she saw it was all a sham. He never existed. That perfect jewel she worshipped was all an illusion. The beautiful blond boarded a plane back to her hometown,sent Maharaji a letter telling him that he had fucked her over for the last time, and never looked back.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:12:47 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Helen Subject: SUPERB!! More, more....when u hav time? Thanks NT Message:

oh, reality

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 20:57:47 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Helen Subject: Well Done Helen!! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:42:02 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Helen Subject: Yes, well done Helen!! (nt) Message:

yes

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 01:43:49 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: There's more where that came from....(nt) Message:

frustrated romance novelist

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 05:00:10 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Media Resource Team Subject: This is Life Magazine May or June, 1979 Message:

This is from Life Magazine either May or June, 1979, a couple of months after Holi Festival in Miami, in April, 1979. I was at Elan Vital IHQ in Miami during that period, and it was towards the beginning of the Boeing 707 project. Michael Bergman, who was doing PR for Elan Vital at the time, had been talking with Life Magazine about doing what he believed would be a 'positive' article about Maharaji. Maharaji himself was really into it because this was really going to get him some good publicity and get his message, and his mission of having everyone in the whole world receive knowledge, going. Life Magazine sent reporters and interviewed people, and came to the Orange Bowl and took pictures of Holi Festival. Then, when the article came out a couple of months later, it wasn't at all what we expected. Actually, it was accurate, from a normal person's perspective, just like the text under the picture is highly accurate, but from the cult-members perspective, it was a disaster. Actually, it was very funny and, as you know, at that time, Life Magazine went into millions of homes all over America. Michael Bergman had a nervous breakdsown and was sent to live in an ashram in Michigan. I don't know how Maharaji reacted to it. I was someplace in that crowd, but where is anybody's guess. What a bunch of freaky weirdos we were, and doesn't Maharaji look like the megalomaniac he is.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 05:40:11 (GMT) From: bill--did he have his Email: None To: Joe Subject: nervous breakdown because m got angry?..nt Message:

dsgh

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 19:37:27 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: bill--did he have his Subject: I think it was just the whole thing.... Message:

Michael was really invested in that Life Magazine Article. Elan Vital had openly cooperated with Life, and Michael was, I think, the point person at Elan Vital. I know Maharaji was excited about the article, but I don't know if Maharaji actually spoke with Michael after the article came out. I think it was a matter or expectations. To a programmed cult member, a 'positive' article would have been pretty pictures, and talking about how supposedly happy the premies were to have 'knowledge' and to celebrate it. I think that was Michael's expectation, it certainly was the expectation, or at least hope, of all of us at IHQ. But what Life did was just objectively state the obvious. Maharaji was filthy rich, people had to pay $35 to listen to Maharaji speak, and then kiss his feet, at which point other donations were expected. And the Holi pictures speak for themselves. The article made the Maharaji cult look like exactly what it was, one of the weirdest, most bizarre cults around. I just think Michael took it all very personally and as a result he had a nervous breakdown.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 03:39:39 (GMT) From: Media Resource Team Email: None To: Joe Subject: Thank you Joe Message:

We would be grateful if anyone could come up with a copy of that magazine,perhaps look out on eBay? MRT

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 08:11:06 (GMT) From: eBay Alert Email: None To: Media Resource Team Subject: 1979 Life Magazines for sale Message:

go to: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1409047432

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 21:58:02 (GMT) From: Cynthia Email: None To: Joe Subject: Joe, I got interviewed for DECA at that Holi! Message:

Hi, I'm the one that's wet! The Orange Bowl. Randy Berringer and Michael Black (Blacky) interviewed me during that festival. It must have been late April because they called me the day after I got back. At least they called my community coordinator, Ondine Norman, at the time. I was going south and was the first in my community so everyone was all blissed out and jealous. Little did I know.... They called to confirm I was ''hired'' and I was gone in two days! I remember going through all my personal belongings and giving everything away. Lighten the load. I also threw away a rather lengthy volumn of poetry that I had written since age 14. Those are the losses that really hurt. Anyway, it is quite a phallic symbol. I actually hated Holi, it went on too long, and I am fair skinned and always got a terrible sunburn! Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 05:55:23 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joe Subject: This is Life Magazine May or June, 1979 Message:

Just love that 'from a normal person's perspective.' Too funny! And yes, Maharaji is looking meglomaniacal, just full of glee having a blast, killing us all softly with his hose.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 02:59:32 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Everyone Subject: PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji Message:

After lurking here for decades it seems, and occasionally posting, I recently sat down to right a journey to post on this site. In the process, I found myself writing about specific formative events over the years. Knowledge session, India, darshan, Holi festivals and the like. After finishing, I realized I had nostalgic and otherwise fond memories of those transcendental / non-ordinary / unexplainable experiences. Some of these I've posted here, generating interesting and helpful responses. (Thanks to Roy for turning me onto William James' 'Variety of Religious Experiences' - it's excellent.) But I also realized I felt nothing about what I believe today. I was unable to draw any conclusions about those many years other than it was profound and at some point I put it aside. I am numb, spiritually. This bothers me and has forced me to take a much harder look at my beliefs, my practices and where I draw inspiration from today. I realized that for years, my entire spiritual life revolved around having had some unexplainable experiences some 25 plus years ago. For awhile I attributed those to Maharaji, but over the last 10 years, it has all become a fond memory that I haul out when I want to feel 'spiritual'. I say to myself and others I hope to impress, 'Oh, yeah, I lived in the asharam, I had a teacher, I saw the light.' Pathetic yes, but where the hell am I now? This is my new quest and one of the reasons I post on this forum now. The reason this thread is adressed to PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters and even Maharaji is because I would like to strongly recommend to all of you to take the time to actually write down where you've been and where you are now. It is a powerful introspective process, sure to reveal both the light and the dark. It's not necessary to post it or even show it to anyone else. It is for you and you alone. After writing my journey, I concluded it was for me for now. I may post it here at some point and 'come out' by name, but for now it's enough to have thought about my journey and written it down. What a long, strange trip it is.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 20:47:29 (GMT) From: Roy Email: None To: Postie Subject: PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji Message:

Hi Postie, I have felt similar numbness - the vacume of the post prem placebo effect. I think you were on to something when you surmised that our experiences were heightend by our projections to the guru archetype, as it were. I think that our sincerity was genuine, and so were our experiences. Capt. rawat was only the graven image at hand. This is only one facet of the overall psychology, as it is likely a combination of factors. I believe my youthfull idealism loomed large in contributing wonderful feelings too. Had I been in my forties and met him as a sixteen year old- what would my perceptions and experiences been? Your insights are appreciated, and reading your journey some time would be a pleasure. Roy

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 00:06:04 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Roy Subject: PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji Message:

I agree completely with your comments... except I hold on to the belief that, in the early days, GMJ was actually manifesting something that was real and worth committing to. Many here would disagree, and I have no proof of this, but there was something noble about those days. It felt like Truth. Of course, it could have been 100% projection on our part but at this point in my maturity, I have absolutely no way to test it one way or the other. We can only suppose. All the best, Postie

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:32:39 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Postie Subject: Postie, you are not alone Message:

But I also realized I felt nothing about what I believe today. I was unable to draw any conclusions about those many years other than it was profound and at some point I put it aside. I am numb, spiritually. I have heard so many other people on here say this - and I think it is one of the worst consequences of having been a premie. Susan once likened involvement with Maharaji to 'spiritual rape', resulting, like sexual rape, in an aversion to anything spiritual thereafter. I still have aversions to any kind of group spirituality. I am reluctant to say I believe in anything because I feel like there will be a cause and effect chain reaction which will then limit me the way I was limited when I was a premie. I am not averse to spirituality per se - I just want it to be very individual and very private. BTW, I hope you will decide to put your Journey entry (or an edited version) on line here - the Journeys on this site have helped a lot of people break free. As Patrick-Anon said below, length doesn't matter. Take care, Katie

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 10:19:13 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com To: Postie Subject: Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists and Anglicans Message:

Hi Postie, Like Francesca my Journey is turning out to be too long and I'll probably just post one with dates and places and reserve the analysis for another webpage that people can go to if they feel like sniffing my spiritual armpits. I really enjoyed Helen's, Joy's, Babs' and Francesca's answers to you. Here's mine. Puccini believed that God wrote ''Madama Butterfly.'' He wrote most of it in one sleepless sitting. He was not the only single-minded creator to express a similar idea. He may have been in a manic phase perhaps soon to be followed by depression. Single-minded or concentrated creativity can burn up so much energy that it leaves one exhausted. There seem to be about five regular posters here who are atheists, a bunch of agnostics and fair contingent of buddhists of various stripes. The Buddhists (buddhi is sanskrit for mind) all seem to be of the kind that does not worship a god such as Gautama Siddartha or any of his avatars and other divine hangers-on but are Dhyan (jnana yoga), Ch'an (the Chinese forerunner of Qi Gong and the now persecuted Falun Gong) or Zen (Soto zazen not Rinzei koan.) All of these methods for attaining peace of mind are either atheistical or agnostic and are based on the idea that that goal can be attained through concentration, single-mindedness, mental focus, ''mindfulness,'' alertness, awareness or wakefulness. I don't know anything about Tibetan Buddhism because I have always dismissed it as being a polythesitic yantra religion not far removed from primitve animism or shamanism but I did read Timothy Leary's ''The Psychedelic Experience based on the Tibetan Book of the Dead'' in one sitting the day that it hit the bookstores (1970?) and had my first trip without drugs. The only shamanism that I know about is South African nGoma (it has different names in the 11 Bantu languages) which is part paleolithic gaia-ism, part animism, largely ancestor worship and mostly tribal psychodynamics, clan politics and other mischief making. Francesca has studied both Tibetan Buddhism and shamanism so she could set you straight about those subjects....Last year I read Alain Danielou's book on Shivism/Dionysusism and learned that Shiva was probably a Tibetan hermit who lived in the Himalayas and that the tantra yoga (shakti/kundalini) that he taught originated in Tibet. There is a straight line from Tibetan tantra to Indian dhyan (jnana, raja, kriya and sahaj yogas) to Chinese ch'an and Japanese zen. I've meditated for 30 years and now know that any experiences that I got from Maharaj Jism in the 27 years since I first set eyes on Mr Rawat have come from myself. The guru business relies on hoodwinking you into thinking that you need an intermediary. The pope, Mr Rawat and your local televangelist all make a living out of pretending that they've got a hotline to heaven. If a guru or other god-vendor is a really good businessman he will then make sure that you never attain your goal and will set out to confuse you even more so as to keep you coming back for more of his useless product. Any heavenly fun that I am having is because of my own efforts and inspite of the socalled ''help'' that I have been offered. God helps those who help themselves. My own tastes in religion run to being an atheistic ethical humanist and eternally optimistic hippie who believes in peace and love with a fondness for ecstatic Church of England (Purcell) and Lutheran (Bach) choral music and cheerful, forgiving Christian sentiments and a tendency to be an old fogey armchair yogi of the dhyana school. Sometimes in moments of single-minded, concentrated creativity or enjoyment it does feel that you are indeed part of the energy that keeps everything buzzing along. And I know of at least one other Anglican ex-premie who wishes to remain in the closet.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 18:06:16 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Old fogey armchair yogi - cool man! Message:

You said: 'My own tastes in religion run to being an atheistic ethical humanist and eternally optimistic hippie who believes in peace and love with a fondness for ecstatic Church of England (Purcell) and Lutheran (Bach) choral music and cheerful, forgiving Christian sentiments and a tendency to be an old fogey armchair yogi of the dhyana school. Sometimes in moments of single-minded, concentrated creativity or enjoyment it does feel that you are indeed part of the energy that keeps everything buzzing along.' So I'm assuming becoming a Seventh Day Adventist or Mormon is out of the question? I get from your reply that you have no problem embracing traditional religions and extracting those aspects that suit your personal cosmology. And the embracing of those things in fact helps to create an ongoing cosmological development.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 18:10:21 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Postie Subject: Wisdom comes from all sorts of people Message:

I was even thinking of shocking the objectivists, materialits, scientists and rationalists here by saying that I am converting to polytheism because I believe that people like Puccini, Mozart, Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Shakespeare etc etc etc were indeed gods. Perhaps the ancient Greeks got that right.

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 18:21:28 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: We are all gods... Message:

of varying degree and varying attributes. That's what the archetypal paradigm of godsd is all about IMHO. At different times, we all manifest various god-like qualities. Eros, Trickster, King, whatever depending on which set of gods you are using to describe the 'symptom' being displayed. I put forth an idea before - that perhaps GMJ at one time manifested an archetype or god quality (small g) of 'Sat Guru-ness' and that is what attracted us. But now he manifests whatever god is responsible for being an authoritarian materialist. So go ahead and shock 'em, Pat.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 19:25:29 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Postie Subject: We are all gods... Message:

Yes, that's the big secret....that all thgurus ( I like that typo) and truth mongerers, manage to keep to themselves, until the last minute. We are all realised souls, everybody knows the secret....We don't need anyone to reveal anything to anyone. Thank you very much! and goodnight! Sleep tight, lots of love, Kelly

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 02:49:51 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Kelly Subject: We are all gods... Message:

Not exactly Kelly, Those that pose as god go nuts. All of them. The evidence does not tell us to follow thier lead and declare ourselves also the gods, maybe there is another view to see it as?

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 05:16:02 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: bill Subject: We are NOT all gods... Message:

The ancient Greeks believed that many of their heroes and ancestors became gods by their deeds or wisdom. But the Greek gods, like mortals, were subject to the laws of decency and, if they committed the sin of hubris, were suitably punished - usually by going mad.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 06:07:39 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: gods... not God Message:

This point got twisted around. Kelly was saying we are all realized beings - I disagree. I was saying that we all, from time to time, manifest qualities and characteristics of the various god archetypes . Not that we own that manifestation and walk around claiming to be Zeus or something. I was speaking from a archetypal psychology modality that explains human behavior by indicating it's parallel in how the gods behave. Pat, I also understand your point about the mythological gods acting human and going mad. As far as we manifest behaviors that are god-like, we are gods. Not that we are God or a particular god. Perhaps I should read up on this before I become the god of ignorance.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:01:35 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Postie Subject: Postie, material for much discussion here Message:

But I think we talk the same language.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:32:27 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: Pat, I definitely wont cross you ... Message:

after your 'high horse' post to Jim. Excellent points were made by you. BTW: There are elements of this discussion in that thread about Janet as well. I think the biggest conflict is in literalizing (i.e. Prem Pal = Sat Guru) what the 'soul' would prefer to remain mythological. That's why, IMHO, Joy can dream of M but he only represents an archetype within her. Of course PPSR imposed that literilizing of his Sat Guru-ness. You are correct, sir - this is a huge topic and one I need to study up on.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:41:31 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Postie Subject: Postie, I answered your poll NT Message:

f

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 18:33:33 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Postie Subject: We are all gods...Postie Message:

But I believe in democracy so we better conduct ourselves accordingly. As Thelma always says: ''If Jesus walked across the water to save the world I would invite her to sit on the Salvation Committee.''

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:08:07 (GMT) From: Kelly Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: We are all gods...Postie Message:

Hi Pat and Postie, Er well, I was definitely a god last night! but in the cold light of day..I'm not, cough cough, so sure. But I still think we are all realised souls but we just don't realise it. And I still think that I'm as god as the next man or woman. I'm enjoying your posts Postie you strike a lot of chords with me. Thanks, love Kelly

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 20:55:36 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Psychedelics put Maharaj Jism in persepective Message:

Kelly, cough cough, people have used drugs since the beginning to time to see god within themselves. I'm just reading a book ''Tripping'' which is a compiliation of 50 peoples' psychedelic experiences. Powerful stuff which changed peoples' lives forever.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:40:18 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Kelly if you like my posts - you are a GOD! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 18:27:16 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Kelly Subject: Kelly, did you get my email? (nt) Message:

Hello:-)

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:29:30 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Pat Conlon Subject: When I hear the word 'spiritual'... Message:

...I reach for my pornography. I was on the verge of becoming an atheist when we moved to Utrecht, but when I found that the only bar in town where you can drink and dance with Jack Harer and the White Widow all night' is across the road from our house, I gave God a second chance. I think, if there is such a thing as God, and she decides to incarnate in humann form, she will be an athiest. She won't want to be bossed around by herself, or read the last page of the book before any other pages. As you know Pat, I write poetry and play music. I been conducting a survey with all the artists, writers and musicians I've met over the past ten years or so. I say to them, 'When your best work is produced, do you feel that you don't actually produce it yourself, rather observe the process like anyone else. When words sparkle in a poem, I often never intended the meaning it at the time I wrote them. I notice it later. When you play your best music, it's like you're standing there listening to it yourself, detached and entertained. Puccini was right. Whatever it is that's creating this beauty around us in nature, be it finite or infinite, is also creating the beautiful art we appreciate and 'produce'. Bonne weekend Pat Anth having an artsyfarty weekend in the Netherlands.

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Date: Mon, Feb 19, 2001 at 04:42:10 (GMT) From: Curioius George Email: None To: AJW Subject: When I hear the word 'spiritual'... Message:

Dear Anth, That's the most 'spiritual' post I've seen fron you in a long while, if not ever! It inspired me to try and paint. Thanks for replying so nicely to my Mike finch post. I still haven't read any yet though. I thinks it's going to kill me like the cat. Curiousity George

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:59:24 (GMT) From: Pat Conlon Email: None To: AJW Subject: You can sniff my spiritual armpits anytime, Anth Message:

No room for NT so how about a little tickle from the Fat Fag?

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 07:41:05 (GMT) From: Joy Email: None To: Postie Subject: PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji Message:

Hi 'Postie'. I, too, felt numb for many years after leaving M. I had no spiritual involvements of any type for ten whole years after leaving. But you know, that felt really okay. I didn't have a need to go out and fill up the hole left by being a premie. I just sort of sat with it, and then when something came along that seemed right, I just sort of found myself gravitating towards it without thinking about it or consciously realizing I was getting into another spiritual thing. It just sort of happened. And now that it's not happening any more, that's okay, too, there is something else to take its place. I guess my point is to just relax with it all. I think Maharaji laid a big guilt trip on us that we were supposed to be having some sort of wonderful experience all the time and if we weren't we were somehow deficient (in our practice of Knowledge, our devotion, or just our very selves). I think we need to drop that trip also, that we need to always be in 'that experience'. I say baloney. If one wants to be a worldly hedonist post-Knowledge, why not? I certainly needed that after many years in the ashram. But then when the need for something deeper arises, I feel that the thing which is right at the time will present itself in its own time. Just my experiences and late-night ramblings . . . (P.S. So much for my not going here or posting here! Can't keep away!)

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 16:02:56 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Joy Subject: PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji Message:

Dear Joy, You are so right! After the whole hyper-taking-one's-temperature every-five-seconds to make sure one is having an 'experience' of premie-dum, the best thing to do is take a break from ALL of it for awhile. Tune into one's own innate sense of spirituality or meaning or whatever. I feel like Maharaji snatched that away from us. But we all have it, our own sense of purpose. How foolish to have another person tell us the purpose of our lives. As if it were an objective one-size-fits-all propostion. Hope all is well with you. Before I forget to tell you, I have been in a fibromyalgia/chronic fatigue study at Georgetown University Hospital for the past 5 weeks. I am learning a lot of great stuff and would be glad to share it with you. It's based on cognitive-behavioral stuff and is great. Take care Helen

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 11:06:21 (GMT) From: Tim G Email: | To: Joy Subject: Irish Lotus Message:

Hi Joy I LOVE the 'Just relax with it'. I feel sanity coming on. I'd love to write more on this subject but A. it might be very boring and B. Very self-important and indulgent.....but I probably will later...have to rush out right now. One thought though: 'The Way that can be named is not The Way'. Love Tim

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 06:04:53 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Postie Subject: PWK's, Ex's, Premies, Fencesitters, Maharaji Message:

Hey postie, I can relate to what you are saying. I learned more as a grad student at Catholic University, having religious discussions with various learned nuns and monks there, than I ever did as a premie. I think because when the brain isn't engaged, there is no real commitment. As premies our brains were a burden to be cast aside rather than to be engaged in the quest for meaning. As a premie, the experience of 'god' boiled down to a series of physiological sensations (this is Father Michael's idea, not mine, but I just love it). In this sense it was like 'Brave New World' and our humanity was stripped from us. It was a kind of boot camp, giving forth to a synthetic experience of God rather than an authentic search born out of us as individuals. Been listening to Joseph Campbell who was really against gurus. The guru shows you his way, but we each have to find our own way through the forest. And then the journey can really begin. All we learned with the guru was what NOT to do, IMO. Glad to hear writing the journey was so helpful to you. Helen

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 06:47:45 (GMT) From: Babs Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com To: Helen Subject: As Ralphie the Chef always says, Message:

'99% of all learning is learning never to do that again... whatever 'that' is!'

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 15:53:51 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Babs Subject: As Ralphie the Chef always says, Message:

Yeah, it's a good lesson to learn, but a shame to spend decades learning it!

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 04:04:05 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Postie Subject: good to have you here...nt Message:

fdh

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 03:47:41 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Postie Subject: Postie, I find the same, about writing down the .. Message:

bones. There is too much happening right now and I have put it aside, but I am writing a long one. If I ever post it, I will have to edit it greatly or it will be a major bore for many, but for now, I'm just writing a little here and there when I get a chance. Since I moved on spiritually and personally more than 10 years ago, I don't find myself in your shoes as far as the rest of your post. However, the forum keeps me honest about what I am doing, and how much of it is 'real,' even to myself. Many of my other 'exes' in my circle practice in their own way also, with input from many streams, and of course from their own inner voices. I was numb for a while as well, but I'm sure you will/are sorting it out. It is powerful. Best wishes --f

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:53:11 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Francesca: Writing down the bones Message:

Are you referring to Natalie Goldberg's 'Writing Down the Bones?' My wife swears by that book.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 00:22:06 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Postie Subject: Francesca: Writing down the bones Message:

Yes, although I haven't read it. Now you've added something to my reading list. Thanks Postie! ;--)

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 12:09:13 (GMT) From: Patrick (formerly Anon) Email: None To: Francesca Subject: Don't worry about the length of your Journey.. Message:

Just post them! I think that it is great that you all have a lot to write - I'm sure it will be helpful to many to read through everything you people have to say. Please post them asap.

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Date: Sun, Feb 18, 2001 at 00:23:12 (GMT) From: Francesca Email: None To: Patrick (formerly Anon) Subject: No asap Message:

I don't have any time to write right now, so I am working on something. It will take months, but I'm in no hurry! --love --f

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Date: Sat, Feb 17, 2001 at 17:20:14 (GMT) From: Postie Email: None To: All y'all Subject: Personal mythology Message:

Thanks to all of you for your comments and support. Funny how the thread was meant as a suggestion to try journaling to get at the heart of one's current state of mind. What most everyone reacted to was the part about being 'spiritually numb'. So again, just writing it down can have unexpected results - which was my point in suggesting journaling as a process. I woke up this morning thinking about my post and had some further thoughts re: 'spiritual numbness'. (AJW - 'fullfilment' or 'awakening' or 'fully alive' may be less charged terms than 'spiritual'.) I think that the hugely appealing idea of Sat Guru and Knowlegde ca. 1972 engaged my active imagination and sparked it to another level - providing me with a personal mythology to live by. This personal mythology - of devotee / guru / peace on the planet - served my imagination for quite awhile. This was fine as long as both my intellect and subconcious were satisfied. The problem (cognitive dissonance) came once my intellect 'woke up' but my imagination was still engaged in that now dead myth. Some say this was M's brainwashing or hypnotism but I think I became 'spiritually lazy'. It was too easy to keep buying the myth even though the the myth had been replaced by a Spielberg-esque orchestrated nostalgia. I've allowed the radar of my active imagination (soul, spirit, whatever) to atrophy from lack of use. Several of your posts have adressed this directly with various suggestions / paths / viewpoints. Thanks for that. Here's to a re-awakening! Perhaps a journey of a thousand miles begins with a journey of a thousand words. Postie

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