Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Thurs, Feb 22, 2001 at 16:34:45 (GMT)
From: Feb 09, 2001 To: Feb 20, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Bazza -:- Feel like I just dropped acid, man -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:38:55 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Did you read the evolutionary drivel? -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 19:39:53 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Religious bigots, Nigel -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:12:44 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You wish -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:52:57 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- ...and don't forget Mili's classic put-down line: -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 19:43:53 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Damn I missed all that -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 03:11:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ ham -:- It's the subtle approach to luring new agers to k -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 11:05:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Another great thing about Mili -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 08:56:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- Another thing -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 09:00:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- It's not too late! -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 07:20:57 (GMT)

Jim -:- Halleluah! What we've all been waiting for! -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:12:47 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Halleluah! What we've all been waiting for! -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:48:18 (GMT)

Aussi Ji -:- Conference callers up in arms... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:18:27 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Conference callers up in arms... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 15:34:17 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- No they did not salam -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:02:46 (GMT)
__ Bazza -:- No no no, its free mate -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 05:39:44 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- free? Hah! Duplicitous little conman aint' he? -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:44:27 (GMT)
__ __ Aussie Joe Bugner -:- [edited by FA] -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 06:15:35 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- I forgot to mention -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 04:16:18 (GMT)
__ TD -:- Paying in US dollars is such a giveaway.... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 01:11:38 (GMT)
__ __ Brian -:- Money to Malibu is right!! Sheeesh -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 01:37:44 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Conference callers up in arms... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:27:46 (GMT)

Gregg -:- Guru Maharaj Ji and Spinal Tap -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:30:22 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Guru Maharaj Jism and the secret techniques -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:16:14 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- The cult is dead now can we talk about feelings -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:44:41 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- Pat, did you really want to discuss feelings... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:21:00 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Postie, I should have repsonded -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:51:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Thanks Pat - I feel better now (n/t) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 23:22:23 (GMT)
__ Postie -:- Talking about feelings - important topic -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 17:30:10 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Talking about feelings - important topic -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 00:32:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Postie -:- Talking about feelings - important topic -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:04:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Postie, I'm re-reading William James and Huxley -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:36:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Small world. So far WJ is illuminating. n/t -:- Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 02:52:33 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- The cult is dead now can we talk about feelings -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 08:29:32 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- for the next time you have surgery -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:16:10 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Susan, pain scale -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 01:19:21 (GMT)
__ cq -:- ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' - -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:04:04 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' - -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:08:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' - -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:36:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Indian premies -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:41:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Had to look it up - diaspora - die as poor as a -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:04:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- The Gujerati diaspora -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:43:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Die as poor as ...I love it! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:49:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Die as poor as ...I love it! -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 12:42:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Kelly, any time you want to talk Indian premies -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:12:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Kelly, any time you want to talk Indian premies -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:33:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Kelly, initial stages of exit -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:01:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Kelly, initial stages of exit -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:40:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey, I read that! -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:02:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- Hey, you can still read after all that Air Lingus -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:57:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Kelly, on the nose- hedging my bets -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:15:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- From a Latvian - Don't Worry (hee, hee) -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:59:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Kelly -:- From a Latvian - Don't Worry (hee, hee) -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:09:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- The Venue - March 10th -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:18:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Die as poor as ...I love it! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:52:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Hindu hyperbole and over-emotionalism -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:07:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- OMIGHODDD - did I say 'minorites'? oops. sorry. nt -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:19:26 (GMT)

Pat Conlon -:- Haight Hindu hippie premie world -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 03:56:57 (GMT)
__ janet -:- forward this to bruce archer if u see him -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:04:57 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- you mean you're not black, Janet? -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:15:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- i'll give you my standard answer to that one: -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:25:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Phew. Some standard you got there, Janet -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 19:21:05 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- I am afraid -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 17:38:16 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Don't worry, Joe, I'll protect you -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:00:23 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Sorry Joe - point taken - others note. (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 18:46:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Nigel, I was kidding. I'm not really afraid. -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:50:08 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Amphetamine psychosis? -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 13:11:12 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Hi Nigel -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 13:35:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Hi Marianne -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 13:53:22 (GMT)
__ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- my reaction to these old friends -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 11:44:01 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- my reaction to these old friends -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 17:30:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ D_Thomas -:- It goes the other way too. -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:53:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- That's a shame ... -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:03:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- That's a shame ... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 17:42:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- That's a shame ... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:44:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- That's a shame ... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 13:16:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No wonder you're confused -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:22:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- From my cave in Latvia.... -:- Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 14:54:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- There is a time and place ... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 18:48:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ D_Thomas -:- Is being alike it? -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:19:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- You are twisting my words around ... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:56:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Kap -:- my reaction to these old friends -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:20:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- my reaction to these old friends -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:31:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- my reaction to these old friends -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:03:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Francesca -:- my reaction to these old friends -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:57:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ janet -:- i remember 2 dollar bill's! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Wilton 1 and Wilton 2 -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:36:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- the Karen Carpenter connection, got it ... -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:26:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick (formerly Anon) -:- the Karen Carpenter connection, got it ... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 08:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- the Karen Carpenter connection, got it ... -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 17:36:04 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Is this guy a name dropper or what? -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 10:56:17 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Huh? What's up with that? Why didn't he ... -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:02:56 (GMT)
__ __ Pat Conlon -:- Did you see that he mentioned that I -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Cosmo Shiva! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 05:50:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Whoa, pardner! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 07:15:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Marianne -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:55:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Francesca, it is not my fault, it is not my fault -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 18:12:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bill Crolius -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 18:30:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Bill Crolius and Rick Penn no longer at Rainbow -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 18:54:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bill Crolius and Rick Penn no longer at Rainbow -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:33:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Bill, Rick and I helped start Rainbow -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:09:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- and I was around before the Rainbow ... -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:03:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ justwonderin... -:- Bill, Rick and I helped start Rainbow -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:51:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- David Mankoff -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:04:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- Rainbow groc in Denver -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:26:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ justwonderin... -:- David Mankoff -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:37:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Sure -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:28:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ justwonderin... -:- Sure -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:03:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Joe is quite correct -- SF Rainbow never cult ... -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:35:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- Now it's Rainbow Natural Foods -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:35:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ GAC -:- RAINBOW = PREM MARK = THE ONAE TRUST -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 15:27:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That's the Denver Rainbow -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:26:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Marianne I asked Bill if he remembered you and -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:27:37 (GMT)

Jim -:- Sunday Funnies (from ELK) -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 23:13:36 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- I'm feeling increasingly isolated. -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 03:21:53 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Well I'll be gobsmacked! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:27:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Well I'll be gobsmacked! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:57:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- I called the information number... -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 17:49:50 (GMT)
__ Kelly -:- Sunday Funnies (from ELK) -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 00:54:15 (GMT)
__ __ Francesca -:- Sunday Funnies (from ELK) -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:29:28 (GMT)

AJW -:- It's all over. We've won. -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 11:25:18 (GMT)
__ Victoria Bitter -:- It's all over. We've won. -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 04:25:17 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Semantics Victoria -:- Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 13:21:35 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- so he'll sulk away w his 100 million bucks -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 21:14:18 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Hey Anth, what info do you have about this? -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 20:52:44 (GMT)
__ __ la-ex -:- Hey Anth, what info / Joe, here's a little Info: -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:07:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Daneane -:- But they save animals at Amaroo!!!(nt) -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:01:55 (GMT)
__ ViC Bitter -:- It's all over. We've won. -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:23:43 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- It's all over. We've won. -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:16:34 (GMT)
__ __ Bazza -:- Hey you -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 00:21:39 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- Will the Amaroo event be cancelled? -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 11:59:14 (GMT)
__ __ jondon -:- I know of 7 people -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 15:28:41 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- So far 7 people have registered... -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:19:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Very funny (nt) -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 15:49:50 (GMT)
__ __ Bin Liner -:- I hope not because..... -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:36:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Amarula is better than Amaroo -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:18:27 (GMT)

Bazza -:- ...and I quote, -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 05:53:29 (GMT)
__ Pat Conlon -:- Guru who is Himself perfect......... -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 06:06:35 (GMT)
__ __ Babs -:- Guru who is Himself perfect......... -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 07:05:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Pat Conlon -:- Babs, I'll read with pleasure anything you write -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 02:44:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Postie -:- Working title for Babs book : 'And It Was Divine' -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 16:40:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Postie -:- or maybe 'And It Was Denial' n/t -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:24:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- But surely you can't blame him for THAT?! -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 23:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ babs -:- But surely you can't blame him for THAT?! -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:06:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Jim was practicing the fine art of irony -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:54:14 (GMT)

Mark -:- I have a question about devotion -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 22:38:14 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Illegal and violent acts. -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 15:12:02 (GMT)
__ Forum Administrator -:- Name confusion -:- Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:20:46 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- I have a question about devotion -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 20:23:18 (GMT)
__ JHB -:- I have a question about devotion -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:29:15 (GMT)
__ __ Postie -:- Yes, and I did break the law in the line of duty. -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:40:54 (GMT)
__ salam -:- Answer: NO...................nt -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:07:19 (GMT)
__ __ Mark -:- Ok, but does this mean that..... -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:17:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ salam -:- Ah shut up will you -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:22:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- or a sausage pie -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:26:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Hot board sucks like Jim.Ooops like rawat -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:35:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SqueakyJi -:- I didn't ask for that picture -:- Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ salam -:- Very Clever girl -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 00:08:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- the dinner - not much to tell -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 00:22:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- the dinner - not much to tell -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 00:58:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- What would you do? -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 07:19:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- That's heavy -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 22:11:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- What would you do? -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 07:54:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Babs -:- Teresa King. -:- Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 07:58:57 (GMT)


Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:38:55 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone/Chris
Subject: Feel like I just dropped acid, man
Message:
I was nosing around Chris Dickey's website (impressive credentials BTW, why hide behind X's?), anyway I found this link to some bloke called 'Mili':

Link here:- Mili

I looked at it, OK, its some geezer in shorts sunning himself on a cliff in Greece or somewhere, and there's this funky Turkish harem music in the background, but then I noticed all these names scrolling across the bottom and recognized a bunch of them as Forum Posters!!

Please somebody, clue me in!! And Chris, why would you put a link to this fruitcake on your otherwise professional site? (Hey at least there were no cult links, so you aint THAT stupid!!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 19:39:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Bazza
Subject: Did you read the evolutionary drivel?
Message:
All that cod-scientific, cartoon stuff about homo sapiens as 'the eternal underdog' (being forever bullied and shunted out of whichever environment by competing species species etc..blah blah). And all to provide a rationale for the bald concluding statement that 'Knowledge is the key'. (reader: 'well, YES, of course - I see now it must be...')

Don't want to piss on Mili's party, but any rational take on Natural Selection precludes the possibility of divine lineages and all the perfect master crap and I recommend he and others read up on the subject and join a few appropriate dots.

Charlie is my Darwin

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:12:44 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Religious bigots, Nigel
Message:
Just the usual sort of religious nut, I think. Inclined to read and blather a lot, but evidently incapable of even a practical humanity.

One finds a cold and almost palpable desire to hurt comes through in the feeling-tone of those guys' posts. There is nothing so bitter and harsh as the small-minded hostility of a low-church Believer against non-Believers. Except, of course, their consuming hatred for those who have left the flock and now show the Faith as worthless; and indeed, worse than useless.

Still, to look on the bright side, if be they even small-minded, at least the Toad hasn't completely leached away their critical faculties and feeling for truth.

JohnT
- never a premie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:52:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: You wish
Message:
Bazza,

Mili's one of the original premie posters here. I'm sure that he's a great guy to his friends, smiles at strangers and gives blood regularly. But here he's been a real asshole. He even once tried to get Usenet to cancel our first discussion board -- can't remember what we called it .... alt.cult.maharaji maybe? Yeah, he sent them a fake petition with tons of names he'd clipped from a premie board, the one Harlan Ray Cooley started but which EV shut down back when Maharaji was trying to get premies to stay off the net. Anyway, some of those names were even a bunch of exes here! It was hilarious. Usenet told him to fuck off.

Then Mili took over co-administering that same forum with Harlan. This was so funny. At one point, premies got into an argument over how to think and talk about Maharaji. And well they should, given how completely contradictory he's been on who he is. So they start discussing this and Mili shuts them down, makes it clear that the forum isn't for discussions. What's it for then? Well, take a look at ELK. Mili's a kind of foul-mouthed, crass Happy Clapper, if you can imagine.

Then there was the time he told Susan, who had just started talking about that miserable Jagdeo memory, that she was an ugly old hag or something. (Sorry, can't remember just what but it was kind of along those lines).

My greatest complaint with him is that, like CD, he's never had the guts to openly discuss things. CD's evasion is all about wimpy ass non-sequitors and the like. Mili's is about playing dumb and callous.

He's pobably lurking though.

Hi, Mili! How's it going, huh? Jai Satchitanand?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 19:43:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ...and don't forget Mili's classic put-down line:
Message:
'Why don't you go and get raped by a Mahatma, or something...?'

(It was 'only a joke', apparently)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 03:11:52 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Damn I missed all that
Message:
Thank for that Jim. Mili sounds like a piece of work alright. I still don't get why he has all those Forum names scrolling across the bottom of the screen or even what his website is supposed to be about OR why Chris Dickey would want to link to him. I mean if I was a prospective customer, Chris, I'd follow that link then say Okaaaaaay, time to find another programmer.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 11:05:23 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: It's the subtle approach to luring new agers to k
Message:
and to mili hisself, he fancies himself bigtime,
mili is one slippery slimy customer
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 08:56:32 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Another great thing about Mili
Message:
is that lots of his 'satsang' pages seemed to be quite genuine (I don't know if they're still online nowadays) - to good to be true - .... until I digged into this stuff and discovered that they were ALL lifted from that old booklet Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj that not that many people remembered at that time.

I guess that was one of the things that decided me to start my EV-DLM Papers website, and set the records straight once and for good.

Thank you Mili !!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 09:00:49 (GMT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Another thing
Message:
>Thank you Mili !!!

Funny you should mention that.
I made several thousand extra $$$ because of Jim Heller and the old newsgroup.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 07:20:57 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: It's not too late!
Message:
I'm sure a weekend spent browsing the archives will help you catch up on the delights you missed!

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:12:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Halleluah! What we've all been waiting for!
Message:

Legal Action Taken Over Hamsters

The Associated Press

Monday, Feb. 12, 2001; 1:20 p.m. EST

BRUSSELS, Belgium –– The European Commission is taking legal action against the German government for allegedly failing to protect endangered hamsters, the organization announced Monday.

Germany infringed on European environmental laws by allowing intensive agriculture and industrial construction in an area near the Dutch border that is home to the threatened species Cricetus cricetus, the Commission said.

Popularly known as the European hamster or black-bellied hamster, Cricetus cricetus is the largest of the hamster species and can grow up to 12.6 inches long. It risks extinction in its natural habitats in Germany, the Netherlands and northeast France, according to a hamster-enthusiast Web site.

The Commission said it sent Germany a 'reasoned opinion' on the issue, a legal step that could lead to the German government being hauled before the European Union's high court if it fails to provide a satisfactory explanation.

The European Court of Justice could impose fines if it finds that the EU's habitats directive, which protects the breeding sites and resting place of rare species, is infringed. A case is pending against Greece on charges that it damages beaches used by a Mediterranean sea turtle.

The Commission said the Horbacher Boerde area near the city of Aachen, where industrial development is planned, was 'one of the three most important sites for the species' in northwest Germany.

German reports have cast doubt upon the presence of hamsters there, but the EU dismissed that.

'The Commission is sure there are hamsters,' said Annika Oestergren, spokeswoman for EU Environment Commissioner Margot Wallstroem.

The EU commission has called Cricetus cricetus 'an endangered hamster' that is 'suffering a recent severe decline.' A 1999 Council of Europe recommendation refers to it as 'endangered and vulnerable,' and the Bern international convention on endangered wildlife lists it as needing to be 'strictly protected.'

The Commission said it had expressed concerns to Dutch authorities about the fate of hamsters there.

It also sent a letter to Britain demanding the government tighten application of the habitats directive.

'We must take our legal safeguards seriously or we face the wipeout of endangered species through the creeping loss of habitats,' Wallstroem said.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:48:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Halleluah! What we've all been waiting for!
Message:
The EU commission has called Cricetus cricetus 'an endangered hamster' that is 'suffering a recent severe decline.'

Yes, Jim, this does sound like it could be our hamster. I say they should let it go extinct though. Odd name he's going by these days, don't you think? Cricetus? Sounds Greek.

Congrats on your 15 minutes of fame. And as for your new album coming out, ya think you could get it uploaded to Napster while there's still time? Just joking. I just might get myself a copy from Barry. Go easy on your friend there, Jim. I'm glad he made the announcement.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:18:27 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Conference callers up in arms...
Message:
G'Day everyone,

Yes,The conference call went through last night here in aussiland and a lot of people on the call were 'pissed' to say the least.Anth was right when he said it was going to be about AUS900 bucks registration.It is $US420.Aussies have to pay in US dollars and can pay direct via credit card (would'nt it be nice if a certain person had a lot of credit card numbers to run away with when this hole mess collapses?)If you don't want to pay via credit card then you can go to the bank and get a bank cheque in $US and pay that wasy.They pointed out the fact that it is best to do it when the exchange rate is at it's highest.Christ I thought knowledge was free..Ha Ha..Aspirants are still being told this.
Some premies on the conference call asked if 'the speaker'.that is what they call m now knew about this high cost of rego.They replied Yes.
Anyway the bottem line in this post is that I know of 3 absolute DIEHARD premies who have said enough is enough and are saying they will not go to Amaroo.It is getting very interesting
Knowledge is now for wealthy people
Cheers Aussi Ji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 15:34:17 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Conference callers up in arms...
Message:
did anyone explain why the money has to be paid in US dollars instead of Australian?

Can you please e-mail me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:02:46 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: No they did not salam
Message:
G'day Salam,
I bet it is something to do with making more money,or it doesn't sound so much when you say it in $us does it? Cheers Aussi Ji
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 05:39:44 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: No no no, its free mate
Message:
Well according to the Introductory Pamphlet available from the aussie website:

'Without advertising or charging fees to attend his speaking events, Maharaji has genuinely touched the lives of hundreds of thousands of people worldwide'

You must just be confused brother ji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 20:44:27 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: free? Hah! Duplicitous little conman aint' he?
Message:
you know, if you view that page as 'source' - the author appears to be someone called Wendy. This is slightly odd. I checked it last year and it clearly said author: Hans Rawat.

Just for the record.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 06:15:35 (GMT)
From: Aussie Joe Bugner
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: [edited by FA]
Message:
[more catweasel poop scooped - FA]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 04:16:18 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I forgot to mention
Message:
I am fairly certain that this is correct.In the past if you could not afford the registration,then it didn't matter.Just give what you could afford.I used to think that was a pretty good system.It was fair and most premies were honest and put in what they could afford,and if you were dead broke that was ok too.Noone was stopped from entering.This time around I think they are going to stop people entering unless they can meet the registration,OR they agree to pay it off in installments.If this is correct,it must mark the beginning of the end.Somone below said m is not subtle about it anymore.You can say that again.This is daylight robbery.
I also said some diehard premies I know are not going to go to Amaroo.This is a major dilemma for Elan Vital as these premies have been around since the beginning and are stalwarts in the cult.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 01:11:38 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: thedefector@hotmail.com
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Paying in US dollars is such a giveaway....
Message:
....as to the state of desperation that Maharaji has now reached. It's like he's not even bothering to be subtle any more how he extracts cash from premies....

Why on earth should Australian premies or premies in general pay in US dollars for an event staged in Australia? Fuck, it's so blatantly obvious as to where the money is gonna go.... all the way back to Malibu....

When Anthony Robbins and any other 'new age speakers' who come to Australia on a tour, people who are seeing them, do not have to pay in US dollars.

What justification have they given for the payment being in US dollars?

Aussiji - can you email me at the above address if you want to chat to another Aussie ex - maybe we know the same people!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 01:37:44 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: TD
Subject: Money to Malibu is right!! Sheeesh
Message:
The funny part is that Rawat's entire operation in Amaroo is based on premie slave labor - AUSTRALIAN premie slave labor!

If they all told him to piss off, his desert 'Convention Center' would be as worthless as the misguided devotion powering it...

Hey Maharaji - You stepped in it again! Do you ever get tired of how under-appreciated your 'efforts' are?? Maybe you should quit. You're being self-managed by an idiot.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:27:46 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Aussi Ji
Subject: Conference callers up in arms...
Message:
Yes, Aussi Ji, I concluded in 1984 that K was for wealthy people, but hung in for a little while longer (about one year) and then started on the road to calling it quits.

I wrote letters to the M-ster concerned that he was relegating K to yuppies only, and received no reply. I concluded that he doesn't care who can and can't come to the programs, as long as the fanatics with money CAN. At least back in 1984, there was such short notice for programs that folks only had weeks to prepare. The three considerations were time off from work on such short notice, money for program registration, and money for travel.

I am still on EV's mailing list after all these years, and I generally receive program notices AFTER the programs or about one week before. This leads me to believe that only FANATICS even find out about many of them in time to go.

I do know that there is only one local event in this area every two years or so, and that is just some video thing or other. I haven't gone, but the Indian premies that have them are really sweet folks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:30:22 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Guru Maharaj Ji and Spinal Tap
Message:
This is from a guy who wrote a book on Spinal Tap:

'For a while I was a disciple of the guru Maharaj-Ji, the baby guru. He was a 13-year-old perfect master and, a lot of people don't know this, a big Spinal Tap fan. That was one of things that led to a lot of disillusionment among his disciples. That and the fact that he married his blond secretary. Maharaj-Ji used to have these huge prayer sessions (he was the first Eastern guru to ever rent out Astrodome) until he was discovered after one listening to Spinal Tap records, smoking American cigarettes and masturbating. It was the combination of those three that caused problems.'

(By the way, for those for whom the English language and/or irony is difficult, the above quotation is supposed to be funny, not factual, like the band itself. The movie Spinal Tap is one of the funniest movies ever made.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:16:14 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Guru Maharaj Jism and the secret techniques
Message:
''...listening to Spinal Tap records, smoking American cigarettes and masturbating.''

I did hear that M spent a lot of time locked in his bedroom in 1972 in LA listening to the Doors and crying of loneliness.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:44:41 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Everyone
Subject: The cult is dead now can we talk about feelings
Message:
like ordinary people please without constantly challenging each others' sincerity and semantic abilities? I definitely am not advocating that FV become a nursery for ''inner children'' (slap the brats) but how about we relax the unspoken rule that we all be lexicographical geniuses and hand out a few honorary poetic licences?

Jim and Michael Dettmers and some others have been conversing about language, semantics and communication.
How does one communicate feelings in words?

After I had surgery 4 months ago they rigged me up with a morphine drip. In order to match the dosage to my needs the nurse asked me what my pain was on a scale from one to ten. My brain suddenly went into the Windows blue-screen fatal error mode. What is a ''one'' pain? How bad is a ''ten'' pain?

The blue-screen lasted so long that I eventually just said ''ten'' to be on the safe side. Next time the nurse came I asked her what the difference between a ''one'' and a ''ten'' on the pain scale was. It was her turn to do the blue-screen short-circuit.

She could have pinched my left arm and said,''That's a one'' and punched my right arm and said, ''That's a five. Now let's see what a ten feels like,'' as she thought about what sadistic torture to inflict on me. She'd loose her job.

Pain and pleasure. Sensation. Taste in both senses of the word. Emotions. Feelings. How do you communicate them in words in cyberspace?

I just watched the movie ''Rhapsody in Blue'' the 1945 version of Gershwin's life. It's heavy on the sappy Hollywood emotions but the man's music sends me like darshan never did but Ham thinks I'm perverse to like anything but house mixes and Jim plays psychedelic trip ass tracks. It's useless to argue about taste - musical or otherwise.

My answer to ''How does one communicate feelings in words?'' is: ''You have to have an up-to-date poetic licence'' or ''Don't bother. Say it with music instead.''

Are feelings even worth communicating?

What triggered this off was a sentence in an obscure post here by someone with whom I am not familiar. He/she said: ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' as he/she stood in the grounds of Prem Nagar. It was a lovely picture that was painted.

But had this person never before been thrilled by music or love or sex or psychedelics or poetry or a trip to the circus when he/she was young and impressionable?

One of the most crippling aspects of Maharaj Jism is the focus on one person as the source of all inspiration. The results of this are amply documented by the doggerel regularly written by Capt Rawat and his unimaginative minions.

And while I'm talking about feelings let's also talk about imagination. Just kidding. I don't want to give the objectivist materialists and scientific rationalists apoplexies.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 18:21:00 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Pat, did you really want to discuss feelings...
Message:
... or what?

Your above post above seemed to indicate that you were, with understandable reticence, wanting to open up conversation about feelings / emotions presumably re: M&K. Some comments further down about the emotional way in which the Indian Gujerati diaspora approach the whole Guru / Devotee genre were informational and help explain why those particular groups of people are attracted to the Captain. But I thought you wanted to discuss emotion rather than information about a particular group.

Emotion / feeling is core and key to the Bhakti Ju-Ju you so cleverly have put a name to. So, I replied with a post ('Talking about feelings - important topic' ) describing my own personal emotional evolution and how nostalgia has a way of hooking you back in to the trip. I guess I was dissappointed (feeling) and pissed off (feeling) that my post got no response, especially from you the thread originator.

I understand that many posts are read by many people without any response at all so. The reality is that this forum, like many others, is a cross between a Vanity Press and Dear Diary - sometimes a conversation, too. If a post gets accolades, that's wonderful for the ego but otherwise, as a diary or journal it's therapeutic just to write it all down. When I post flippantly or informationally or cleverly (I'd like to think so) I'm not as heavily 'invested' as with an emotional post.

Postie - been stood up so I'm talking to myself

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 20:51:41 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Postie, I should have repsonded
Message:
But I did not feel like making some quickie wisecrack. Yes, I did want to talk about ''feeling'' but not about ''that feeling'' or nostalgia. I really want to take back those words like feeling and experience which have been debased by Rawfat.

I will answer seriously as soon as I have some more time. This thread took a swerve of the subject pretty soon and I went with that but I'll be back to address your post.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 23:22:23 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Thanks Pat - I feel better now (n/t)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 17:30:10 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Talking about feelings - important topic
Message:
Pat,

I once heard Milton Glaser speak about communicating love. He's the penultimate graphic designer who created the now ubiquitous 'I Love NY' symbol where Love is replaced by the heart symbol. In his talk he showed examples of bumper stickers that bastardized his simple, elegant and maginficent icon. Everyting from I Love Cleveland, I Love My Rottweiler, I Love Spiro's Pizza (from Greece), I Love So and So's Drycleaners (Taiwan) ad infinitum. Anyway, the upshot of his talk was that emotions or the one we talk about most - LOVE - is the singularly most difficult to express without sounding sacharrine. Everyone says it, card companies make billions saying it but it takes courage to truly talk about it.

In answer to your central question 'are feelings even worth communicating?' the answer is yes. At least to the extent that I am aware of what I feel and why.

Pertinent example: After coming to the point where I no longer needed M as an authority, I quit practicing K or going to events for 7 years. I became nostalgic (feeling) for 'those old times' and 'that experiance' and 'the company of truth'. So my wife and I decide to go to a Long Beach event just to see some old friends and 'check it out' again. No expectation, no anticipation, no longing - well probably some longing for intentional community and comaraderie.

There was a slide show going of the past 25 years of GMJ / M with background devotional songs - M's greatest hits done as Muzak. Even though I logically understood that it was manipulative, I just sat there and drank it in. I was hit broadside with feeling. Emotionally, I was rehooked in 'that familiar and vulnerable place'. It made no sense to me but I became overwhelmed and 'blissed-out'. I actually remember sitting there, not following M's Mobius ramblings, but in fact wishing / hoping I could be sort of swept away and taken care of. This is what I call the White Knight Syndrome in which 'that experiance' is going to lift me up and beyond this mundane world. Fortunately for me, I recognized the feeling as the one that drew me into K and the ashram back in 1972.

Hey I know that sounds fucked up, but you seem sincere in your request for talking about emotions so here it is.

The whole point of the Long Beach story is that it's so easy to think that 'nostalgia' is 'spirit' or that Knowledge is 'that feeling'. Continuing back to 'that place' of nostalgia and mushiness and attributing it to Maharaji is no more than spiritual masturbation. It does feel good but not as satisfying as the real thing. It takes real courage to own my own feelings. It takes real vigilance to not fall for the cheap pull of the heartstings. Hey, if I want to have 'that feeling' Steven Spielberg is the master of emotional manipulation. I felt like crying when E.T. went home fer Chrissakes and E.T. was a rubber puppet!

Remembering historical progression from being 'saved' by the White Knight in 1972 to taking back the reigns of my life about 1990, I was able to logically short circuit that old emotional wiring and just say no. As I said above, once I became my own authority, I no longer needed M's bullying authority trip.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 00:32:42 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Talking about feelings - important topic
Message:
Hi Postie,

When I posted: ''The cult is dead now can we talk about feelings'' I was thinking mostly that Jim and Michael call us subjectivists to task when we use sloppy language. I applaud them for that because if it were not for my study of the objectivists and rationalists of western culture I would probably still be stuck at the Locust Feet.

The second point that I wanted to make is that there are subjective experiences and we may now be able talk about them without being inhibited because the urug cheapened words like ''feeling'' and made us overly suspicious of subjective experiences.

I now know that all those ''feelings'' that I had in satsang, darshan etc were because I was ''open.'' By ''open'' I mean my faith had been evoked and I was feeling relaxed and impressionable. You can't fall in love with soemone if you are not ''open'' to them. My faith had been awakened and I was open to sensations.

I began to loose interest in the urug when I realized that I could have 2 hours of mindless bliss for $4 by renting a Spielberg movie. The last event I went to was Long Beach 96 and I too was swept away by the group high but afterwards I felt dirty because the snob part of me knew that it was basically ''revivalist'' mass psychology.

I can enjoy my own feelings without being part of some group or having my emotions manipulated by a Hindu Billy Graham and I would like to see us exes being a little less touchy about talking about our subjective experiences. As I said I don't want FV to become some touchy-feely forum but would just like it that we were able to talk about feelings without being analyzed to death by the semantic and pedantic material objectivists.


it's so easy to think that 'nostalgia' is 'spirit' or that Knowledge is 'that feeling'. Continuing back to 'that place' of nostalgia and mushiness and attributing it to Maharaji is no more than spiritual masturbation

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:04:21 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Talking about feelings - important topic
Message:
Yes I agree. One should be able to express whatever perspective one has of this huge subject without ridicule. After all, it's an overbearing authoritarian's ridicule we are removing ourselves from. In M's 'talks' there inevitably is some demeaning tone that shames anyone who doesn't think the way he does.

There are as many ways to view our involvement with M and K as there are posters. Looking at it from a purely logical mindset is as limited as saying 'only MY experience matters'. I think it was emotion-fueled zealotry that got many of us into this and nostalgia for those emotions that keep many of the old-timers 'high'.

I've begun reading William Jame's 'Variety of Religious Experiences' as recommended by Roy and find it enlightening. Should have read it years ago. His first chapter plays with the idea that you can acknowledge emotions as emotions without attributing them to being 'spiritual' or 'religious' experiences. He humorously points out that while religious critics point to neuroses as the cause of the Saints religious visions, one could just as well see the cause as being based in their digestive systems. Food for thought.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 01:36:23 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: Postie, I'm re-reading William James and Huxley
Message:
(Aldous) both of whom I read before getting into Maharaj Jism. Needless to say I understand them both better now.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Feb 15, 2001 at 02:52:33 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Small world. So far WJ is illuminating. n/t
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 08:29:32 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: The cult is dead now can we talk about feelings
Message:
I feel as happy as a lesbian in a hardware store.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:16:10 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: for the next time you have surgery
Message:
your nurse should have been able to answer your question

pain scale

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 01:19:21 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Susan, pain scale
Message:
Thanks. I guess mine was an 8 and I hope I don't have anymore surgery for a long time. I've had enough in the past 18 months to last me a lifetime.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:04:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' -
Message:
- amazing what a combination of the Delhi belly and haemorrhoids can do for you ...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:08:01 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' -
Message:
and warm tropical moonlit nights full of the smell of roses from Mata Ji's garden.

I loved Bab's stroy in her Journey where she told about cutting these roses and selling them to the local premies who could not afford food. The Rawats have been in business for a long time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:36:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: ''I was introduced to a world of feeling'' -
Message:
ah, but you see, Pat -

- those local premies who couldn't afford food could have been you or I (given a few more decades of splurging out on the expense of budget-draining trips to see him speak the same old same old)
.
.
.
It is serious though. The pressure on your average Indian premie must still be as great as it ever was. Why do I single out the Indian premies here? Well, having spent nearly three years on the Indian sub-continent (and I know why they call it that) - ahem - it really is tragic. Their faith in their guru is meant to define their self-worth.

Trouble is - getting a believer to re-examine their (quote) 'true' (endquote) belief - you'd think you were doing them a disservice or something.

It's easy to knock a religion when it's in its infancy as a cult. But when the belief-system has spread its roots - why, we'd be infringing their right to freedom of religion (or are we already?).

I must admit, as former insiders of the cult, our callousness with the the figurehead of the premies' devotion might shock outsiders. But, for god's sake, he's just a man, isn't he? Albeit a man who once preferred to be called 'Lord of the Universe'.

(and as such he deserves all he gets - especially since he now denies he ever claimed that).

The suckers were us. We'll have to get over that. Now, how many more suckers will we let him fleece?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:41:11 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Indian premies
Message:
cq, I was born and raised in Durban which has the largest population of Indians outside of India and I am thinking of writing a post aimed at the younger generation of the Gujerati diaspora who are all educated and on-line. I still enjoy the yoga but I would love to convince them that there is no need for a gooroo.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:04:48 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Had to look it up - diaspora - die as poor as a
Message:
... premie?

sorry 'bout that.
.
.
.
OK, diaspora=dispersion. In this case = ex-patriots, yes?

Well, South Africa never got much press for supporting the minorities, and IMO it's about time somebody did something to offset the global prejudice.

Kudos to you, Pat, as and when it works.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:43:03 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The Gujerati diaspora
Message:
in South Africa, Fiji, Malaysia, Mauritius, UK and USA are Capt Rawat's only premies outside of India except for the 2 or 3 PAMs still hanging in there.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:49:57 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Die as poor as ...I love it!
Message:
I love India, and I love Indian premies, and although the cult is dying in the west, it really does seem to be thriving in India. Rawfat is there right now attending eight different events. Some of them for the first time outside of Delhi. This is a new departure, they have been working on this for the last few years. Whole families are receiving K, it is becoming acceptable and respectable.....and although I go along to some extent with Conlon and his theory of bhakti juju for the Hindu peasant classes. There is more to it than that... Not least the fact that there is quite a substantial Sikh following. I met and know many very well educated and intelligent Indian premies. They are among the nicest people I have ever known. The trouble is the simpler folk are very impressed by all the techno tricks. The set up in the Knowledge tent is such a bizarre mixture of ancient and modern technologies. A tent built of bamboo and bits of string, fitted with video monitors every five metres!!It must blow their minds.

And you should see their devotion, it is phenomenal. Yep, I reckon he's all washed up here, but sadly, I think he has a great future in India.

It's just the diaspora that's done for!
Cheers cq cu soon
Love Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 12:42:47 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Die as poor as ...I love it!
Message:
'.... and although the cult is dying in the west, it really does seem to be thriving in India.'

I met up with a couple of young mahatmas from different Indian groups and when I told them I used to be a devotee of Shri Hans's son, they said 'Oh, you mean Satpal'. The had never heard of prempal, or balyogeshwar or etc etc.

Still India is a big place....and as the street conmen say after they pay a small fine for selling crap jewellaryor perfume on the street, 'There will always be other mugs which will come along.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 02:12:55 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly, any time you want to talk Indian premies
Message:
just say so. I know that you know what you're talking about.

You said: ''Rawfat is there right now attending eight different events. Some of them for the first time outside of Delhi. This is a new departure, they have been working on this for the last few years. Whole families are receiving K, it is becoming acceptable and respectable...''

Are the events still all in Uttar Pradesh and Nepal or is he going to Punjab and Gujerat? Whole families have always come at the same time in S Africa too and it is more than respectable. It is the equivalent of the Protestant Anglican church versus the Catholic Latin-American church. Rawfat is definitely the urug for the middle-classes.

You said: ''...although I go along to some extent with Conlon and his theory of bhakti juju for the Hindu peasant classes. There is more to it than that... Not least the fact that there is quite a substantial Sikh following. I met and know many very well educated and intelligent Indian premies. They are among the nicest people I have ever known. The trouble is the simpler folk are very impressed by all the techno tricks.''

Anyone else who has spent time with Indian premies will know that your assessment is very accurate. When I wrote about the bhakti juju and the peasant classes I was over-simplifying. Capt Rawat's followers are mostly vaisyas not sudras. And even more so in the diaspora. I tend to think of the European premies as if they are brahmins which, because of their intellectuality, they seem to be. Compared with them the Indian premies are more ''peasant-like,'' more old-fashioned and conservative but they are definitely educated and intelligent and the nicest people.

I was interested to hear that there are so many Sikh premies in India. None in S Africa. But there has always been the Punjab connection. Was Shri Hans' family from the Punjab? Singh Rawat? DLM is pure Beas cult offshoot.

90% of the premies in the diaspora are vaisyas from Gujerat (next to Punjab.) Gujerati mahatmas brought K to S Africa in the 60s. If they still send as much money to the urug as they used to when I was cc in Durban then the urug still has a big cash income. The Indians outside of India are usually richer than their cousins back home. The ex-pat Indians will probably all have satellite dishes soon and their kids will be looking at this site.

I hope that patchouli oil doesn't make you go inactive again.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:33:12 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Kelly, any time you want to talk Indian premies
Message:
Hi Pat, just a quick response to your interesting post.I'm not sure of all the venues, but he is definitely going to Hyderabad, which is way down south. Almost Tamil country? He also has a large following in Shri Lanka.
Of the two main events he does in India each year, one is Hans Jayanti or Dad's birthday, the other is Vaisaki or Baisaki which is predominately a Sikh festival.

I am still going through some of the initial stages of emerging from the cult trance, which I liken to a cross between a divorce and a bereavement. I am experiencing a great sense of loss, in part focused on all those lovely indian premie friends i will not be seeing again. Not close friends you understand, but there was/is such a bond of love and delight in their company. I have spent many months in their company in the last few years. I feel the same about the western premies too,(well some of them anyway!) I slightly mourn the loss of community. There are so many premies, not close friends, but people I really enjoyed meeting up with at events, that I am going to miss. God, I'm getting maudlin!! But Hey Ho!..I will not be tempted back into colluding in the delusion.

Gone on a bit, haven't I?
Love Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:01:52 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly, initial stages of exit
Message:
Me too. But hopefully you'll have fun at Brit Latvian Night and make new friends. I got K in UK and still haven't told some premies whom I've know for 30 years that I have parted compnay with the perfect master. We formed our friendships in our impressionable 20s when friendships seemed so much more passionate and lasting and we have grown old together. I will be sad if they become afraid of me as some premie friends here in the US have.

I guess it's not worth talking about the Indians on FV. I've tried but they are two different worlds. I guess Rawat will make inroads into Tamil Naidu and Sri Lanka via the relatives of the Tamil diaspora who are now getting K. I'm not into knocking their belief systems. Maharaj Jism seems to suit them and they are so civilized and kind.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:40:05 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Kelly, initial stages of exit
Message:
Hi Pat,
Fortunately I do have and have always had many non/never been premie friends. But i've gotta admit I'm seriously worried about some of these ex-premies, especially the Latvians. Have you ever met any? Would you share a room with one? Do you think this would a wise move for a tender new ex like me?

By the way, you really have me puzzled, i thought you said you left 20 years ago? but you've been sort of hedging your bets by paying your dues all this time?

Guess what? I got a thank you card today, from Elan Vital, with a beootiful picture of Rawfat. I cancelled my standing order the minute i woke up, but i guess they're just thanking me for all my contributions over the last year. What a smuck! Not a penny more.
And count me in for any lawsuit to recover any money given under false pretenses.

Not so maudlin now! up yours Rawfat!

All the best to you
love Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 10:02:46 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Kelly
Subject: Hey, I read that!
Message:
Hi Kelly. I am very well behaved. Ask Anth. I stayed at his house two different times, and he and his wife say that I can come back if I want.

I also read your post the other day, asking me if I would be wearing 'Eau de Lingus' when I arrived in London. Geez Kelly, that sounds like something I say to my husband in the middle of the night!

Give me a ring later today to discuss plans. I've got some more info.

Love, Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 21:57:19 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hey, you can still read after all that Air Lingus
Message:
Night flying?!! What sort of a Latvian are you? I'm telling you , you will have to drop these strange practices. When in Bohemia behave as Bohemians do. Otherwise you will not be allowed into my particular flying club...! I'm dreading it already. I had a nice sweet cosy life as a premie...and just look at me now!
I bet you snore as well.
Kelly
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 01:15:06 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Kelly, on the nose- hedging my bets
Message:
But also my experiences with the Indian premies made me think of the urug in their way - a preacher and not to expect too much from him. Also I enjoyed the yoga and thought it was good for people.

I still think the urug's a preacher (the Billy Graham of yoga) but a greedy preacher and I'm not sure the yoga is worth much without the juju. I still enjoy it but would never dream of telling others that it is the be all and end all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:59:17 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: From a Latvian - Don't Worry (hee, hee)
Message:
Kelly,

The Latvian night on March 10th will be a gentle affair. Just a few drinks, a bit of chit-chat and then, tired but happy, we go home. Those pictures from Jean-Michel on this site of the last London Latvian night were all posed - none of us were drunk, even at 3 in the morning.

BTW - Isn't it about time we decided where we are meeting?

John the Real Latvian living in Latvia.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:09:16 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: From a Latvian - Don't Worry (hee, hee)
Message:
You mean to say we aint even gotta venue yet? This is going from bad to worse. I used to know a good drinking club...actually I have just thought of a good possibility. My friend is chairman of this particular club in Chelsea. I'll check it out. good food too. You could maybe pretend to be a Bohemian??
Love Kelly
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 00:18:48 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: The Venue - March 10th
Message:
Kelly,

I've been in touch with Marianne about this. The Latvian club has been closed for about 8 months for renovations. But due to politics within the UK Latvian organisation, the previous manager resigned in November, and they haven't found a replacement yet. The club is supposed to be opening about now, and I keep checking up, but it's getting close to the time for finding another venue, so any suggestions are welcome.

But don't worry, it will happen:-)

John the got drunk in many pubs in London

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:52:17 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Die as poor as ...I love it!
Message:
Thanks for your view of this, Kelly. It may be that like Raj Neesh, he will leave the US at some point (possibly hounded by the IRS or just plain lack of interest), but I do believe he will possibly have a home in India. Of course, he seemed to have been using the Westerners to bankroll his propagation efforts worldwide, so I don't know where he will get his dough. Of course, it's cheaper to live over there than it is to live here.

From the little I know, Hindu bhakti seems to be as old as the hills there, and that's probably where it belongs. In some ways, it is way less harmful for the Indians than it is for us. There is a certain aspect of all religion that is merely cultural, and for many does not go exceptionally deep into the psyche. I remember seeing those early films of Rawfat riding an elephant, etc., and people half out of their minds at near riot pitch in the streets.

I do know that some of my friends that have gone to India to Tibetan Buddhist events report much the same thing. Total insanity at major public events, with folks acting like the Rinpoches are rock stars. Total religious frenzy in which adults and children are trampled and killed.

When we Westerners try to make some of these foreign dishes in the kitchens of our minds, we poison ourselves with some of the exotic flavors, and make fools of ourselves in the bargain.

At this phase of my personal development, devotion to ANY guru gives me the absolute willies.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:07:30 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Hindu hyperbole and over-emotionalism
Message:
For the Indians in Durban the gooroo was a ''preacher man'' like Billy Graham and they would also go see the latest swami from India.

The bhakti stuff is revivalist charismatic evangelical yoga for them and they express themselves so hyperbolically because they are very emotional and excitable people.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:19:26 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: OMIGHODDD - did I say 'minorites'? oops. sorry. nt
Message:
deep doo doo
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 03:56:57 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Haight Hindu hippie premie world
Message:
This is from the The Great Worldwide Linkup. I'm posting it because it gives a glimpse into the world of the Haight Hindu hippie premie world that I have mentioned a couple of times. Note the Bowly Shriek at the end.

And yes, I know, I know. What have I done? What monster have I spawned? You'll see what I mean.

Name: Bruce Allen Archer
Location: San Francisco
Email: goldenpoet87@hotmail.com
Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 00:51:14 (PST)

My message: This is an incredible miracle there are so many people I want to find....for a start, Jim Stevens from the Pittsburgh days....Ernie Papas....Debbie Clearfield....Jeremy Dean,my son....John Pring from Penge Eng....Hilary Ulrich.from :Brighton Eng...Katie an ex fiance from 82 in Miami Beach...Will, Kikas, and Coe from Nortweig and Amsterdam...Alan Porzio from Hollywood 74...Jacqueline Jeanine...from Rue De Montel Montant, Paris....Bee...Friend of Mick Fleetwood...:Barry Richards...Marc and Jenny from the days when you met and shared chailey cottage with me and Hillary....Paul and Jane from Lewes, eng....Beausolie....Carl Roles...Olivia Harrison from Henley on Thames, Eng....George Bud Paulding......Frank from Denver....77.....Suzy Bai Whitten....Linda and Ritchie from NYC in 76....Michael Nouri..Ny and La....Michael from Jiva....Michael L. Randall...from New Hampshire, Needam, Mass., Larry Lesbedder from Far Rockaway....anybody who lived in Whitestone Queens premie house in 76....Debbie from New Hampshire in 75 (Shanes ex wife)...Jacques Sandoz from Switzerland....Audi from Africa and La....Jane from South Africa....(you are in the Led Zeppelin film song remains the same...Paul and Lucy from NY 76 remember front row Donovan and you were going to trade the shoes David Bowie gave Lucy when she was his girlfriend,that Lucy gave me,you were going to trade me the sitar that George Harrison gave you told about Babaji appearing for you in england and taking you to the Himalayas...Lucy, you told me as I was leaving for harlem and had a little fear...When you realize the power that is looking out of your eyes you will never be afraid again....remember.....Alan Jones and Rachael Jones ..living at the middle lodge of George and Olivia Harrison in 77 before Kisimmee....Peter Crisp...Steve Sardoni...Anthea, Bob Dylans housekeeper....Richard Perlin of the Perlin Steel Business....Noel the wonderful songwriter from England....and your wife, I forget her name ..but I remeber her visiting will kikas and coe in nortweig,Holland....Rev, from Kansas City...Stoney from Kansas city...Pam Lybarger from Kcmo....71.....and any other premies who remember me.....I have just been nominated for International Poet of the Year by the International Society of Poets and I want to hear from any of you especially Elise Val De Bonquer, from Denver 77....Bob Doriss from Pittsburgh and later with his flying school in Colorado....Tanya Zeiss from Pittsburgh...Mary and Gena from Hagerstown Maryland...who I madethe mistake of revealing light to and Maharaji said for me to tell you to not reveal it again until he told me to...he also said to tell you to come to him for the rest...Ron Margolis....who I saw playing drums in India in the Hans Jyanti video on Satellite.....need some Darshan stories Ronnie.....Brian from the Chapel Hill, north Carolina days ..Sharon Harmon from Mighty Oaks...did you ever get a phone unlisted...I have painted many mandalas and some visions and have written some songs and lots of poetry.... Danna Whitney....your Daughters father is looking for you.. he's in oaklandcal...Julia Collins the 5 year relasionship lady and my yearly Holi tryst....and anyone of you beautiful premie sisters that made love with me and I with you....after a 10 year lapse starting in 86? when Maharaji came to see me in Durham,NC.....and after many Grateful Dead shows and Rainbow gatherings....the game of hide and seek ended when Patrick from South Africa discovered me in San Francisco and started me off on part 2 of this incredible journey with Maharaji....he told me of a program in Oakland 3 1/2 years ago and I was late and a few blocks away and I started to walk real fast and his voice came into my head and..said don't worry I'll wait..so I just slowed down and casually walked into the Convention Center and sat down in a seat and then Maharaji walked out on stage...what a rush, after 10 years...what patience on both our parts.....I have been trying to find a site like this for 3 1/2 years now and hey you guys from Elan Vital who hog all the seats at a program....time to move over cause with the Smart Card registration, now comming into use, I have a feeling that Maharaji is about to set up a system wherein if there are premies without internet service or faxes who never seem to be able to get a seat reserved on time...there may be a new priority seating where you guys will have to wait 3 years to get to see him, after all there are plenty of premies who need to have his Darshan besides you....love to you all especially those premies who were always in the bliss from the beginning and were such an inspiraration to me...jim stevens, ron and debbie clearfield,,,Malia, Will...Katie... Billie Gray..Ernie Papas...Suzy Bai...Paul..Lucy...Arthur Brigham....Krishna Sukanand....Michaelfrom Jiva...Julia Collins...Elise...the best...Debbie from new hampshire in my landtrust cabin days...i love you...Brian....Michael Nouri...John Pring from the Annand Band and Blue Aquarius... Sunshine(Beausoliel)...Marc and Jenny....and many others i met in my journey...Colleen Dean...mother of our son...Jeremy whom I haven't seen since you were one...tis a great time of reunions.....a great time to be alive and a great blessing to take the next breath...I thank you all for all the great Satsang and happiness you have shared with me and most of all Maharaji who because of his love wisdom power and dedication....i miss you all and I am alive and well in a flat in Haight Ashbury, California...I host Maharaji videos on Thurss and have been for over a year now....there are 3 aspriants and more comming...if any body has heard of Stephen Forest...or Steve who lived in Denver 77 and was at the Oakland Program...also Richard Levy the fine artist who used to live with Peter Crisps ex-wife Anthea....please any or all of you email me and check out my poetry at www.poetry.com by typing in my name feel free to print a copy with my love....this is so exciting..the possibility...to reconnect with friends and intimates...wow Bhole Shri Sat Guru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:04:57 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: forward this to bruce archer if u see him
Message:
people i knew, who you knew 2in New York, 1973, 74 Larry Lesbedder from Far Rockaway....[ that would be Larry Lusbader, short, blonde, borderline psychotic personality. now lives in Palm Beach, has a website, seems to be stinking rich, cryptic as ever}....Michael Nouri...-------------------in Denver: 74, 76,some of 77,78, 79...Jacques Sandoz from Switzerland.......Suzy Bai aka Suzy Bai Whitten........Arthur Brigham.....Debbie Clearfield.and Ron..( what became of Isha, their daughter? Debbie lent us her apt and then bedded my child's father, when i was first newly pregnant by him. Isha was 2 and had a crush on him. she would be about 23 or 24 or 25 by now). Elise Val De Bonquer, from Denver 77...[it's spelled VaDeBonCoeur and in french means 'go with a good heart']-------------in Los Angeles, starts of 75 and 76Audi from Africa and L.A.(also in Miami Beach...){you mean ah-Dee Yeh-MEE, from Nigeria, name spelled Adi Yemi, means 'the crown is mine, the crown is glorious'.very black, very tall and slender, always radiantly smiling, married an english sister with long honey brown hair}Danna Whitney....your Daughters father is looking for you.. he's in oakland, ca.[she ( her daughter) would be about 20 by now](met Danna and Tamra in the Argyle Apts in 76. later Danna and her two ( at that time)kids stayed with me in Gainesville in 81 when my son was 2)Michael from Jiva...Carl Roles...also Richard Levy the fine artist[was he the curly-haired Cancerian who painted vast wall mural mandalas in his first-floor Argyle Apt in 76?]------------------if you knew me, you knew me as Janet Schwartz
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:15:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: you mean you're not black, Janet?
Message:
... I'm so sorry Janet, I thought that when you described yourself in an earlier post as 'the Schwartz' you were somehow ... er,

um.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:25:44 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: i'll give you my standard answer to that one:
Message:
'schwartze' (pronounced shvarts-eh) in yiddish means 'nigger'. yes, it means black, in german.jews use it amongst themselves the way old racist southern bigots use the word, to refer to 'the colored help', in a subhuman, owned kind of way. the shitworkers, in other words. the outside or live-in hired servants who do the maidwork or the maintenance or driving,on whom all manner of burden is tossed without thought.john lennon wrote a song called 'woman is the nigger of the world'.in Star Wars, George Lucas used the benediction 'May the Force be With You'.In his satire of it, Spaceballs, Mel Brooks used a parody of the blessing, ie, 'May the Schwartz be with you'.someone sent me a t shirt they found, with an image of a mongoose locked in deadly battle with a cobra, captioned with the the slogan ' J Schwartz--your financial mongoose' on the back, and the mel brooks blessing on the breast pocket.the biggest bank in San Fran is the Bank of America--initials, BoAI am not considered a true jew, by the jewish side of my family, my father's family tree. reason? he didn't marry a jewess to bear me. so i am a half-breed, a throwaway...a nigger. a Schvartze.the rejection and pressure and psychological guilt of growing up between a sarcastic, overachieving, nonobserving, jewish father and an alcoholic, semi-lapsed, conflicted catholic mother resulted in my succumbing 22 years ago to clinical depression and having to go on disability/SSI to survive. i have gotten no end of shit from my family for this supposed failure to live up to my potential and the family expectations.nnetheless, I can go farther on less than any one of them, and i continue to astonish them with what i can do, despite my supposed poverty.my favorite office plaque reads thusly:'We, the unwilling, led by the Unknowing, have done so much, with so little, for so long, we can now do anything with nothing'so when i say to anyone 'may the Schwartz be with you', it is a treacherous, deceptively smiling blessing, said with big, grinning teeth, meaning 'you may think I'm on your side,friend. keep right on piling it on. keep treating me like I'm your nigger. I'll do the work for you. I'll take it and take it and take it. But I'm compiling a personal dossier on you. and when your day comes, I will strike like the mongoose, and your career of choking the life out of those you prey on will be over. Do NOT underestimate me. I am NOT what you think.' but, no, i am not african american in ethnicity. i just live on a block, and in a city, dominated by gang culture. so i have picked up the ebonics street patois, without even trying. and every once in a while i use it for effect, just to startle.i can do the same with mexican, and jewish, and a couple of other voices.. southern, texan, new york, valley girl, surf dude..
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 19:21:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk
To: janet
Subject: Phew. Some standard you got there, Janet
Message:
- thanks for the clearer picture.

We have one thing in common though - we both had alcoholic mothers. But let's save that for another time (or email even).

Ebonics? That's a new term I haven't heard before. Non-derogatory? I hope so (though, as an 'ivorynik' I still think McCartney and Stevie Wonder have a lot to answer for).

Hey, how do mongeese get on with scorpions?

til later ...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 17:38:16 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I am afraid
Message:
This guy is clearly unstable, perhaps manic depressive and in a manic phase on Saturday? He lives just blocks from both my residence and place of business. Please do not aggravate this guy, all of you who feel brave because you are separated from him by a continent and the Atlantic Ocean. I always thought Vietnam Vets who became premies were the most scary, by and large. There were exceptions, but they tended to be nuts and quite militant.

I wonder if anyone will try to contact him. A significant number of the people he mentioned, like Suzie Bai, Patrick, and others are no longer premies and that might set him off. And it certainly is wishful hindsight, possibly influenced by drugs, to think that they were always in the bliss from the beginning . Arthur Brigham? You have got to be kidding.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:00:23 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Don't worry, Joe, I'll protect you
Message:
He's not a violent man - permanently stoned and with the energy of a slow moving anemic amoeba.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 18:46:01 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry Joe - point taken - others note. (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:50:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Nigel, I was kidding. I'm not really afraid.
Message:
But thanks for being concerned.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 13:11:12 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Amphetamine psychosis?
Message:
Here's a sample of our 'International Poet of the Year's' creative efforts. He could sure give Prem Rawat a few lessons in shiny, happy, cliche-ridden, hippie shit...

(And look at the autobiographical footnote. Could this be a freudian typo: 'I have been practicing meditation over 28 years now. I am a Vietnam veteran and ex-Marine, and I am not [sic] at peace with myself and the world.'?)

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
a dream is waiting

a dream is waiting
pastel shades of purple dawn intermittently splash upon. . .
these drooping eyelids. . .
while the sun. . .
requests my presence. . .
to be witness as he makes his Earthly entrance. . .
but sleep is drawing eyes to dream as my soul flies in
Heavenly light. . .
a dream is waiting as dreams do. . .
to be fulfilled it's up to you. . .
could I wait for father sun to peak his face above the hill. . .
to cast his rays in shallow valley. . .
to glisten in the morning dew. . .
a rising mist would then unveil. . .
a dream oft seen would then unfold. . .
our Mother Earth. . .
or so I'm told. . .
would slowly first then suddenly. . .
come into view majestically. . .
but sleep is calling close your eyes. . .
a dream is waiting so you see. . .
to be fulfilled it's up to me. . .
goodnight shades of purple dawn. . .
I've made my choice. . .
oh Father Sun. . .
give Mother Earth my best regards. . .
I'll see her soon it's in the stars. . .

Bruce Allen Archer

Copyright ©2001 Bruce Archer


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*[a.] San Francisco, CA [title] 'A Dream is Waiting' [pers.] In 1987, I won a 'golden poet' award and an honorable mention in 'The World of Poetry's 11th Annual Contest.' My poem, 'Trees and Sky,' was selected unanimously and they published it. The poem selected by poetry.com, 'A Dream Is Waiting,' is currently in the final round of competition in their North American Open Poetry contest. I am a musician, an artist, and a poet with a mystical approach to life. I respect all cultures except those that spawn people who consciously choose to 'mistake kindness for weakness.' I have been practicing meditation over 28 years now. I am a Vietnam veteran and ex-Marine, and I am not at peace with myself and the world. I hope you enjoy my poetry.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 13:35:32 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Hi Nigel
Message:
Perhaps the contest is run by premies.

Do you know anything about it?

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 13:53:22 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi Marianne
Message:
No, I just did a search from the URL he gave - 'www.poetry.com'. It looks like a vanity publishing site ('all is vanity' as Anth said).

BTW: I expect to see you and the gang in Ireland before long (but never forget that Liverpool is the true capital of Ireland, so if you want to experience the real craic, I'll meet you by Paddy's Wigwam and we'll hit the town again..)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 11:44:01 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: my reaction to these old friends
Message:
I may possibly know this guy Bruce - did he live in Argyle Apartments in Hollywood in '75-'76? Maybe not.
The reason I wondered that is that I remember the artist Richard Levy , Ron Margolis, and a vietnam vet who was nice but completely crazy (as we all were in varying degrees I guess).

I also knew Noel the effervescent poet of current Enjoying Life fame (now in CA) and a bunch of the others. I heard that Krishna Suchanand (who gave me K at the Palace of Peace 28/8/74) is now some sort of homeopathic therapist (or something similar) in England!
I saw Nourri on the TV last night!

If he knows Ron Margolis he may also know Irish guitarist Jim Gallagher who now lives in Bath. Peter Crisp is in the UK tooo I think. I recently met Jim Gallagher at a friends -we argued vociferously I'm afraid - he was definately of the opinion that I was out of order in some way.

I hardly ever see these old friends now -in some ways I'm glad because I think that we may not have so much in common as we did - it's not very nice when premies see you as being kind of 'the enemy' because of your doubts.

I know just what you mean by 'a loose cannon' and 'the best weed' - I know some similar people myself - it's all a bit sad really. I just had a long letter from my 'loose cannon, vry much the unorthodox premie friend 'Cosmic Tim' (as he is sometimes known) - he is the guy I mentioned whose in jail for drugs - frankly I am a point where I think that talking about Maharaji with himis kind of pointless -

Whatever Anth says abut people leaving in droves - what I see is a load of people who have their own personal Maharaji Icon firmly set on their altars (no matter how remotely this resembles the real maharaji today) and who seem very unlikely to ever change or examine what to them is their major belief / faith/ experience etc.

I told you that a former premie friend will not see me now unlessI resist discussing Maharaji - I wrote him this letter but can't find his address - so this is what I said:

Dear ___,

In this letter I am not going to actually discuss Maharaji at all – just to express how I feel about your not wanting to discuss the topic further with me. I hope that’s OK. You may not wish to reply – that’s fine. You may not even wish to read this – that’s fine too.

Only you know if your decision to ‘not discuss Maharaji’ is made wisely. I apologise if I seemed to doubt that. It is not my place to question that unless of course you invite such discussion. The dynamic of our friendship seems to have been unfortunately derailed by my last outburst of ‘doubt’. I confess I was kind of upset over Christmas, because of some things I heard that I found very hard to accept and integrate. It obviously upset you too – whatever I said - sorry about that - but I am running fairly hot emotionally on this issue at this time in my life and maybe I do expect too much from others. There are about half a dozen other people I know who have expressed similar objections to you about my unwelcome criticisms actually.

My way of addressing my problems with Maharaji has been, I confess, to try and talk about it with premies. I have to say in all honesty that the majority of my friends who have knowledge, generally agree or share many of the same feelings and are happy to talk about these issues– some just want to keep this whole thing as some totally private personal area – a no-go area – at least for the time being –like you do. Many, like a dear old friend from my ashram days and others are revising their understandings of Maharaji from their own personal experiences and are seeking a truer understanding of their lives - some are finding it very challenging to their integrity to do so. So I am by no means alone here.

Many have just left and want no more to do with it. I choose to tackle the problems in the hope that good will come of it for all concerned. I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bath water. I seek clarity and above all Truth.

I have always found it very natural to be an open book about my own inspiration and I believe that it pays to ‘Let your light shine before all men’ – to be very open and not in an attitude of defence regarding matters of the heart – My true heart is not vulnerable or threatened by anything. That’s just my feelings. I would go further to say that it has always been really helpful to me to be open to letting others challenge my views. I have been corrected on many occasions by listening to the well-intentioned observations of others. Thus by talking to you frankly I was merely intending to ‘do unto others as I would have them do unto myself’.

One thing that made me a little sad about our last conversation is that I can only think that you must doubt my sincerity, otherwise you would surely respect my experience, even if it is somewhat contrary to your beliefs, enough to empathise, to have some understanding of my need to communicate. I guess, as a result, I maybe also doubt that your decision to hear ‘no evil’ is entirely sincere. I don’t feel that making a decision to cut oneself off from the feelings of others can be ever described as being a sincere action. I believe it is always a defence mechanism of sorts.

I see this kind of self-isolation (under the pretence of one’s needing to avoid people who might disturb one’s kind of ‘holy or precious faith’ as potentially very insidious and a sure indicator that there is some irrationality, zealousy or denial happening. Certainly it fits in with all identified definitions of cultic behaviour patterns. What kind of Knowledge creates a person who can afford no empathy to his fellow man – especially ones who are ostensibly on the same road?

I acknowledge that my need to discuss Maharaji stems from what I perceive to be an honest and compelling need to be truthful within the society of premies – not just in my internal, so-called private experiences – but also in what I see in the external world.

Just to talk for a second about your comparison with discussing Maharaji with ‘talking about intimate sex’ and how it is inappropriate to discuss such things. It is generally accepted that all such personal experiences, in as much as they do not cause any harm or represent abuse, are naturally fine, and do not in themselves merit discussion.

Some may rightfully add that it is not in the least wrong or inappropriate to want to share with people about your beautiful experiences. The privacy of sex maybe enhances the experience and makes it seem more valuable even than it fundamentally is – i.e. because it is restricted it seems intrinsically more valuable.

But there is a difference from talking enthusiastically about the ‘great sex’ you are having and being unfaithful to your lover – a vast difference. I wonder if a big factor in your unwillingness to discuss Maharaji is that Maharaji himself advises one not to do so. In other words if your lover says –‘I don’t want you to discuss our sex with anyone’ you respect that. That’s fine of course. Except, how many trusting lovers who didn’t have a hidden agenda would ever say something like that? If my wife said something like that I would be most surprised!

Another point is that in reality, abusers can and do misuse the trust of others frequently, and in such cases it is good if the spell of ‘never tell anyone about what we did – or else’ is broken by the abused person not being afraid to talk to others. That is kind of the dynamic with me and a growing number of other premies who feel that the need to preserve such rigid privacy about Maharaji is more about avoidance, fear and denial than preserving as a precious secret something that is truly valuable and righteous. It’s good to talk – always.

My conscience tells me that I should stand by my convictions but of course, I should not and do not really expect others to listen to them. I know and accept that a number of premies are currently ostracising me as one who is seen as upsetting the status quo. So be it. I am being true to myself. Those of conscience and conviction are not so rigid, offended or lacking in empathy. You see, I really think you should be asking yourself – do I really want to be so zealous in my beliefs that I will accept no challenges? - that I will not hear any thing that contradicts or threatens my beliefs? That seems so weird to me – and frankly – I am worried that you can think like this. It sounds very, very fanatical. If you cultivate this attitude you will lose respect from both yourself and others.

Please don’t kid yourself that this attitude has anything remotely healthy to offer. It is not. It is a sinister development that will accelerate your becoming a helpless prisoner of your beliefs. Not a true human being.

Personally I continue to assess my values as best I can and am convinced that it is healthy to express my doubts about Maharaji and Knowledge both for myself and for others of course too. I also believe that it is for Maharaji’s eventual benefit to have no dark secrets and for his followers to be informed as regards the broader perspective - and I am not talking about spreading scandals and rumours here. Just facts. In short I am very confident that I have some valid insights to share – it is rather insulting that you reject everything I have to say from my life’s experience on this matter so wholesale.

So, I think it would be quite bizarre for us to sit down for a ‘social’ and merely indulge in small talk when we obviously both have strong feelings about a subject we have in common. I also would have hoped that as respectful adults we could have talked in a civil manner about anything. Of course there’s plenty of other interesting topics.

My experience with you and a couple of others is that you equally invite and initiate this conversation with me (and then blame me for being obsessive and incapable of discussing anything else! Hmm - I suspect I am not so entirely to blame about this as you might like to think.
Anyway I’d still be willing to try our ‘talking-about-other-things-dinner’ or whatever in the spirit of respect and human friendship . My personal preference is for respectful, intelligent, and frank discussion. It’s not so easy when there is an emotional charge of mistrust– Hey, I trust you – I can hear you out –I respect your opinions - your experience But then is it healthy to run away from facing and dissipating this emotional charge? Maybe it would be good for us to face these issues before you decide they are so irrelevant? Hey, you’re not an ostrich are you?! I am really open to your feelings – Honest!
Anyway – no hard feelings – I wish you well whatever.

Sincerely
Patrick

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 17:30:00 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: freitano@hotmail.com
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: my reaction to these old friends
Message:
Patrick:

We may know each other, or at least have been in the same neck of the woods at the same time -- LA during the 70s. Very sad to hear about Jim Gallagher. I have actually blanked out on the name that our premie musical group had (Larry Cohen, Pat Rosen, Dick Parke, Joan Tannheimer, Mike Gainey were some that were in and out), but we all made a tape together in LA (including Jim and Kim) which collected music from the premie scene during that time. I also used to play my songs solo (guitar or piano) at the hall in Hollywood (was it called Larchmont Hall?) and Westwood Hall, Loyola Theater, and various satellite satsangs. They started phasing out the music sometime in the 80s after I moved out of the SF ashram, and everything was this piped in Maharaji approved stuff, such as One Foundation. That was right around the time the premies were no longer allowed to give satsang either. It was becoming a McChurch.

I totally agree with your comment that:

I hardly ever see these old friends now -in some ways I'm glad because I think that we may not have so much in common as we did - it's not very nice when premies see you as being kind of 'the enemy' because of your doubts.

The sign of a cult, for me, is that many premies that *should be* dear old friends are the only people in my life that so conspicuously turn a cold shoulder or lose all interest in interaction with me when they find out I have left the fold. Garbage in, garbage in, I guess.

I can see old friends (non prems) that I haven't seen in 20 to 30 years, and it doesn't matter what we've been through or what our personal belief system is -- that bond is there and that bond is instant. Even if that does happen upon first contact with old premie pals, many of them don't want to stay in touch once they find out I am OUT. That's not true for everyone, but enough to make me pause.

I knew quite a few of the people in that guy's list as well, but the LA scene was so huge that we were all just there together. Many that he mentioned I didn't know well.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:53:15 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: It goes the other way too.
Message:
Some of my ex-premie friends don't want to have anything to do with me knowing I'm still a premie.

David

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:03:01 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: That's a shame ...
Message:
Although I don't know your situation. I would certainly feel uncomfortable around ANYONE, including Jehovah's Witnesses and premies, that had ulterior motives re convincing me to join or rejoin their cults.

However, if you are actually open minded enough to keep your claws sheathed and respect others' views, it is a shame that they don't want to have anything to do with you.

I have plenty of friends and even relatives that are premies. We just don't talk about it, because I feel that tearing down anyone else's belief system is unethical. However, I consider any premies that come on this forum to be fair game. This forum has been cathartic, because except around my husband and certain friends, I can't really say what I think, because I know so many premies in various forms of culta or exculta that I don't want to step on their toes or diss their gods---or assume they are as disillusioned with M (and to be fair, with all guru devotion) as I am.

There are plenty of things in life to share with folks without having to stuff one's religion down their throats, so again, I feel sorry if you have lost some friends.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 17:42:23 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: That's a shame ...
Message:
Francesca, I know that I cann't convince anyone or change their minds. It's just that if I care enough to want to be friends, I want to express to that person who I really am inside, how I feel, what I have experienced etc. I am ready to accept that the other person is an ex-premmie and I understand and relate to the experience that the person is talking about.

That's cool. We all have our different opinions, which can change, and we all are just hanging out in this world.

But if I express my opinions and they happen to be Pro-Maharaji, it is considered a verbal assault. I am giving 'satsang' which is considered a crime. I'm being nice about it. I'm not saying they have to believe me. I'm just saying 'If you want to understand where I am at ... this is what I think'

This friction is reason enough not to bring the subjuect up. It's reason enough to avoid FV. Around these people you realize you cann't be who you really are and there's just this barrier to saying what you really think.

David

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 23:44:03 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: That's a shame ...
Message:
David,

The fact the you consider that there is someone real inside that is different from who you normally consider yourself to be you says to me you are in a cult.

Think about it:-)

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 13:16:34 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: That's a shame ...
Message:
John,
My own definition of cult is that it is short for culture, more at sub-culture. I guess my basic problem is that I could never get along with any culture because it tells me I have to be a certain way, while my own basic instinct tells me to go my own way.

Any idea doesn't just exist as a cold intellectual abstraction, but must form a social culture around it for its support, defense, development, continuance and propagation. Civil rights, it had to have its support organization. End the war in Vietnam - the same. Women's rights. Gay rights. Handicapped rights. Right-to-Life. You name it.

There was definitely a culture which supported the concept that Maharaji was Lord. At least up to about '85 when satsang was abolished, then I don't know what it became after that, but it certainly wasn't a culture anymore. My position back then was closer to ex-premie because I was revolting against the premie culture.

There is definitely an ex-premie culture supporting the idea that Maharaji is a con-artist. In revolution to this culture I find myself becoming increasingly pro-Maharaji. I might be better off just being a hermit and living in a cave. I'm just a total social misfit. But I realized that from day one, so I'm used to it.

What gets me is that literally the same people in the SF Bay area who said 'don't call on Dave to give satsang. We don't want to hear his doubts and uncertainties ...' are now in another culture saying ' ... Don't say anything pro-Maharaji. We don't want to hear it. ' So really nothing has changed. These are the same people with the same tendencies.

I think I'll go back to my cave now.

David

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 19:22:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: No wonder you're confused
Message:
My own definition of cult is that it is short for culture, more at sub-culture.

Sorry, Dave, but that's just typical, and typically useless, new age word play. If you can't accept that there is a word, 'cult', whose connotations are far more specific -- and thus useful -- than this obvious and superficial connection you're making to another word that happens to share the same root.

I mean, honestly, can't you see what bullshit that is? There IS a word 'cult' but doing what you're doing essentially wipes it out of existence, at least in your mind. No wonder your thinking on this subject gets confused. You need to talk english if you're gonna think in english.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Feb 14, 2001 at 14:54:50 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: From my cave in Latvia....
Message:
David,

You're being a little naughty defining cult the way you did, but no matter.

Tell me the three things about Maharaji that annoy you the most. Maybe nothing particularly annoys you, but tell me three things about him that he could possibly improve upon.

Just humour me:-)

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 18:48:20 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: There is a time and place ...
Message:
for everything. Forum V is not a forum for expressing pro-Maharaji beliefs, although I can understand that you may be casting about for someone else who is similarly situated, which is cool. You are just going to have to expect some flack. Kind of like going to a straight bar when you're not sure you're gay yet, and looking for someone else who's not sure whether or not they are gay yet, either. You might get decked. The analogy doesn't quite hold up, because all of us HAVE been premies, but I think you can get my point. As they say, if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen, or at least limit the time you spend there.

The place to express your pro-M beliefs (without getting any flack) is around your premie friends. I know that I cannot express anti-M beliefs around my premie friends, except in passing or I'll hurt their feelings. Unfortunately, they are more uninhibited about laying their pro-M beliefs on me, because I used to be a premie. In some ways, my premie friends can't 'know' that side of me. It is an awkward situation, but that's life. There are only certain people who can know a lot of what you're about. With most people, you work on the common interests.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 21:19:51 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Is being alike it?
Message:
Francesca, do you think that I am looking for some one who is just like me?

'although I can understand that you may be casting about for someone else who is similarly situated'

Do you think that love or friendship is based upon two people being alike or having similar interests? Well, that might be an arrangement most likely to reduce interpersonal friction.

IMHO, to be a true humanist, a person who sees value in people because of their innate value, not because they agree with him, you have to rise above this.

To use your bar example. Imagine I am in a bar. I'm straight, but there are straight and gay people there. If I can relate to both straight and gay people, because I see their innate value, that is a higher awareness. If I can be friends with both premies and ex-premies, that is a higher awareness because I can rise above the issues and see the value of each individual.

So seeing as how we are all in the same boat, wouldn't it be wise if we could at least show some respect and decency for each other.

David

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 22:56:10 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: You are twisting my words around ...
Message:
and missing my point each time. I get along with gays, straights, you name-its. You were whimpering about how no one wanted to hear your pro Maharaji comments.

You refuse to see the real point, so I'll say it again. This isn't a love and peace chat room, although some of that happens on here. And this isn't a place where you come for acceptance of any ideas you might possibly have.

It's an ex-premie forum. Anything else is off topic, although we do go off topic quite a bit around here.

Again: there's a time and place for everything.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:20:42 (GMT)
From: Kap
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: my reaction to these old friends
Message:
The terrible thing is we are all so impolite to each other on this forum and constantly calling people crazy is that a fad or what. From what i have read on this forum .you people will never have friends because you are so wise ass to everyone who tries to be serious. Best grow up and stop calling people names
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:31:45 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Kap
Subject: my reaction to these old friends
Message:
Kap,

What are you talking about? People here are remarkably polite to each other considering the emotions involved. Also, all the people here I know have lots of friends.

John the friendly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:03:50 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: my reaction to these old friends
Message:
I may remember you if I saw you again. I certainly knew Dick Parke very well -we used to play guitar together -Nice guy - I used to pick his brains on Jazz progresssions. I also remember meeting Larry Cohen in a house in Santa Monica circa 1977. I was staying there in this guy's house .Larry, Dick and some others were rehearsing there. English bass player Barry Evans was there as was Tim Hain (guitarist /singer) I think. There was a couple of girl singers too hanging around. I thought one sounded and looked a bit like Karen Carpenter!

The guy whose house it was had a pilots licence -we rented a plane and flew over Maharaji's Malibu home. Later Maharaji complained about planes snooping around there. He was having an instructor conference at the time.

I also remember Larchmont hall. Christmas 1975 they had a party there -Maharaji and family were invited but I don't think the showed up. I was a waiter! I remember a band called 'Wire anad Wood' - 'Jiva' and loads of other musicians. I think Jiva were the pop stars of the time. I was an unknown, unnoticeable guy of 18. We used to be extras in movies (including Rocky 1 and something at the LA Coliseum with Charlton Heston -'The Two Minute Warning') - There was a nice girl called Sandra (blonde) who took pity on me and made me carrot cake occasionally -I had little money for food. It was a treat to a have a bowl of soup once a week at '2 Dollar Bill's'.

Kim Margolis was there and also an Engish guy Johnathon Mills, (son of British actor), we had driven from Daytona Beach (Orlando 1975) along Interstate 10 all the way to LA. There was a girl in Daytona called Terry whose car we commandered and a guy called Stacey Gonder who was into 'The Ascended Masters' or something. It was all very hippyish and overwhelming for a freash young Brit -all those naked bodies and dope! Noel the Malibu poet was there -we were good friends -I was too shy and kind of looked up to everybody. I remember the Krishna Lila dancers were there. Actually it was all quite a lot of fun but quite crazy.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:57:48 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: my reaction to these old friends
Message:
Well I was in a band with all those folks in various groupings at various times, but I certainly didn't look like Karen Carpenter. Don't know who that could be, but I certainly wouldn't have taken offense at anyone thinking I sounded like her. I couldn't have been in 'a girl singer hanging around' category however, because I was one of the main songwriters and singers for the group and often played guitar on my own stuff.

One place we rehearsed was Ocean Park, Santa Monica, and Barry was staying there for a while, as well as at a place where Dick, Larry and Frosty lived (I think).

I was kind of like Dick Parke's 'voice' for his music. We made a tape together of all his jazzy songs, in the Santa Monica house with the 'pilot' that you speak of, but I don't remember our band ever rehearsing there but we could have. I think the pilot's name was Mike, and he taught at Camarillo College.

I had a piano in my room wherever we lived. We did most of the rehearsing in another Santa Monica apartment, the Ocean Park apartment, and the place where Dick, Larry and Frosty lived.

I also used to sing at 2 Dollar Bills with Mikal Glick and friends, a jazz band Dick Parke was in with Mikal Glick and some other premies. Definitely in the same circles, but I was in the 'heading toward the ashram crowd.' The Hollywood folks were on the wilder side of things, so I definitely might have looked like Karen Carpenter to you!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:04:33 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Francesca and pat
Subject: i remember 2 dollar bill's!
Message:
remember the night Jiva had a gig there and we shilled the audience to rev up the vibe? we packed the tables with premies and the normal people wondered what on earth we saw as so great about this band.
remember, right outside the door, across franklin street, was that huge, castle-looking place with the lawn like a park and a gazebo and fountain in the entrance??
that place was bought out by scientology and all the elderly residents booted out. that is now their world headquarters and the place is squeeky clean and run like a space command.
i remember larchmont hall. remember carl roles, the astrologer, making quesadillas for everybody upstairs in the kitchen after satsang?
i also remember survivng on the throwouts from the dumpster of Quinn's healthfood store, across the street from the hall.
remember wilton one and wilton two? well, there was another, down the block near paramount studios. we called it wilton zero--we were all broke and we were being allowed to crash there by climbing in thru the ground floor outside windows, so the landlord would only think the premie he rented it to, lived there.
in fact, he (Sheldon) wasnt there at all. he was in hawaii, and up to ten people were staying there eoth us.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 00:36:39 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Wilton 1 and Wilton 2
Message:
I remember that the neighborhood was a little freaky around those ashrams. One of my friends got mugged on her way back to her car after leaving one of the Wilton ashrams.

I think that's why a lot of the operation started to move out to Santa Monica, where it was suposedly a little safer. Of course, this is only relatively speaking. One of my friends had to talk herself out of a rape somewhere in the vicinity of the Santa Monica brother's ashram in about 1979. She was so devoted to Maharaji (at that time) that she talked him out of it with her sweet sincere ways.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:26:51 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Patrick (Anon)
Subject: the Karen Carpenter connection, got it ...
Message:
I tried to think what I would have sung that would have given you that impression, and I figured out what song it was. Dick Parke's song, 'Only for Love.' It had a real Carpenters type of tune and feel, although it was jazz-tinged, as Dick's work always was. (He was a graduate of the Berklee School of music, and also played lead guitar for Sister Sledge, in their early days.) It was also on the LA Premies tape (most of which was recorded at Dick, Frosty and Larry's).

I don't know where Dick is now, but I am still in touch with his ex-wife and children. I'm also in touch with Larry, on and off, over the years.

Best wishes and glad you are exculta. I knew Jon Mills also and that was a wild crowd. He lived for a while with a pretty blonde woman who wrote great poetry. That's what made the premie scene so interesting. Along with we brainwashed that were trying to be nuns and monks, there were folks who were in there with the spirit of the thing but letting it all hang.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 08:43:54 (GMT)
From: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: the Karen Carpenter connection, got it ...
Message:
I still have the sheet music for 'Only for Love' somewhere -hand written by Dick Parke. I really would like to hear from him again. We got on really well being budding guitarists etc. More reminiscing later -it's fun --I've got to take the kids to school in a hurry now!

Does anyone remember a hang-gliding fanatic called Rick (I think) ?-I stayed with him in Argyle Street and accompanied him to various mountains to leap off.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 17:36:04 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: freitano@hotmail.com
To: Patrick (formerly Anon)
Subject: the Karen Carpenter connection, got it ...
Message:
Patrick --

I can try and find out where Dick is, because all this talk of him has got me curious. I knew him well and don't want to talk about his personal life all over the forum.

Drop me an e-mail sometime and I'll call up his ex. Good excuse to talk with her anyway.

--f

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 10:56:17 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Is this guy a name dropper or what?
Message:
He's got a connection with any celebrity who every got cornered by a premie, Michael Nourri, George Harrisons' wife, Bob Dylans' housekeeper. I think he missed one of the geezers in Starsky and Hutch.

Anth who rubs shoulders with the rich and famous all the time, but because he's discreet, doesn't mention it. However, I was saying to Mick and Kieth last night, that I didn't think I'd be able to make dinner with Tom and Nicole, and they'd have to get someone else to sort out their problems.

Vanity vanity all is vanity.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:02:56 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Huh? What's up with that? Why didn't he ...
Message:
... post himself? I got tired of reading names. I knew some of the people too, but so what!

Oh well, bowling shieks to him too and I hope he finds a few friends but it would be a full time job just to stay in touch with that many people.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:04:35 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Did you see that he mentioned that I
Message:
was responsible for bringing him back to the locust feet? Oh, what have I done?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 05:50:22 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Cosmo Shiva!
Message:
Pat:

Don't fret. At this point I think he could get darshan from a fencepost. Repeat after me: it's not my fault. it's not my fault.

Oh that program in Oakland. What a bunch of drivel. And those cheezy videos. Oy! Anyone who could get anything magical out of that is obviously getting the juice from the cud they are chewing, or the acid they are taking. Repeat after me: it's not my fault ....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 07:15:35 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Whoa, pardner!
Message:
I see that this guy is supposedly up for Poet of the Year. Huh? That stream of consciousness drivel suggests he barely has his head screwed on correctly. I also see he has no contact with his child. What is that about?

Do you know this guy well, Pat?

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:55:44 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne
Message:
I know this guy well. He is a Viet Nam vet and lives on a disabilty pension. This guy is now in effect the leader of what is left of the premie community in SF. He has satsang at his house in the Haight for the four remaining PWKs and his 7 ''aspirants'' all with mental disabilities and living on SSI like himself.

This is the guy whose ''aspirant'' committed suicide (the story that I told when I first posted last month and which drew such flak.) He recently had a dream in which Capt Rawat appeared and told him that he was an ''instructor.'' He is a loose cannon but has the best weed in town. I only recently found out about the child and don't know much about that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 18:12:51 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Francesca, it is not my fault, it is not my fault
Message:
Thanks Francesca, I will repeat, ''It's not my fault.'' When I first met Bruce he told me about how he met Capt Rawat face to face when he first became a premie. The Capt and Bubblegumjee were talking and Bruce entered the room. Bubble said to the Capt, ''Look it is 666.'' Bruce interpreted this as meaning that he would be getting back the $666 he had just lent to Michael Nouri. I said to him, ''Are you sure he did not mean the Beast 666 from the Bible?''

Last night I was just about to post this when we had the first of our rotating power outages for four hours. I had to go to bed early at 1am. Have you had any yet? Sometimes I think California is a banana republic.

Apart from the 4 church-ladies who meet every Sunday to discuss propagation packages, this man and his 7 apsirants is all that is left of the SF community. Yes, the party is really over for premiedom in the west. All that is left are the handful of EV diehards and the Bruce types.

I was just thinking that it was just over a year ago that I went back to check out premiedom - round about the same time that you and I started writing to each regularly again after a break of a few years of just xmas greetings. I was pussy-footing around you because I thought you were still into it.

I had not ''participated in a synchronized way'' with the cult for 17 years. At the beginning of those 17 years I still thought of the Urug as THE Master (and went to Capt Rawat's personal appearances if it was convenient.) I was wary of EV but I sent in my check every month (never trusted them enough to do a standing order) to help the Urug to ''educate'' people by giving them what I considered a useful tool.

By the end of those 17 years I had come to see the Urug as ''A'' Master (maybe - and then not a very good one at that) and my checks were sent out of habit and as a way to say ''I gave at the office'' if you know what I mean - a tax deductible tithe to keep my apathetic middle-class conscience satisfied.

At the beginning of those 17 years I still thought I needed the Urug to get high. By the end of those 17 years I had realized that anything that I got out of meditation had been accomplished by my own efforts and in fact the Urug was no longer inspiring me at all and was beginning to irritate me.

About a year ago Bill Crolius called me up and told me that he was now CC. I was bowled over. I thought. ''Well maybe there really is glasnost if such a sweet, unassuming, unreconstructed hippie can be CC.' I was interested in glasnost because I had come to enjoy meditating and considered it a useful practice.

My ''participation'' at first consisted of setting up the seating for the video events. If we stayed afterwards and set the hall up for the next day's event for another group we got a break on the rent. This all seemed silly to me as I had better things to do with my time and would have preferred to just pay full price but the CC was, as I said, an unreconstructed poverty conscious hippie.

Forest Lodge on Laguna Honda (just below Galewood) is a huge hall, large enough to seat 100 people. Every Tuesday night we would put four rows of 12 seats out and 7 people would show up to watch videos of waterfalls and Capt Rawat smiling and waving like the fucking queen and getting in and out of his plane and making grand entrances onto stages in Abidjan, Kuala Lumpur and Durban. It was pathetic.

Afer a year I gave up and left. The events in Forest Lodge ceased. It turned out that Chuck and Andy and I were practically bankrolling the whole SF operation.

I wish I had saved all of our correspondence during 2000 because I think it would make interesting reading for some exes to see the saga of my battle with the church-ladies only to find that I had made a terrible mistake and had to apologize to all of them from the bottom of my heart.

The mistake that I made was thinking that they were responsible for the personality cult which had increasingly become distasteful to me. It took me a year to realize that the church-ladies were not to blame.

The Urug bears full responsibilty for the secretive and deceitful personality cult which he heads.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 18:30:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Bill Crolius
Message:
I remember Bill as a nice guy. Does he still work at Rainbow Grocery? Love that store, BTW. It sure has come a long way from when it was near the Roxie Theater.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 18:54:09 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Bill Crolius and Rick Penn no longer at Rainbow
Message:
It was because of the two of them that I went back. They really are nice guys (but you'd say that about most of the PWKs if you knew them.) Big warm huggy teddy bears. Bill now has his own construction company and has done quite a bit of work for me. Rick is a forest ranger in Marin.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:33:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Bill Crolius and Rick Penn no longer at Rainbow
Message:
I had forgotten about Rick Penn. Being a forest ranger in Marin sounds like it might be fun.

I figured Rick wasn't at Rainbow anymore. I shop there all the time and I never ran into him, so I assumed he had gone elsewhere.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:09:40 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Bill, Rick and I helped start Rainbow
Message:
I knew Bill and Rick way before you guys! I am certain they would remember me very fondly. Rick used to give satsang in which he mentioned James Brown, god bless him. I think I was one of the only premies who knew what he meant. Perhaps I'll call Bill and Rick when I get back.

I organized the first fundraising event, along with others, like John David Williams, Mike Sredl, Bill C, Rick for that store on 16th Street, part of the 'ho stro'.

Those were the days. That's when Yoram was a mere unemployed hippie premie in SF too. He used to wear my jammies to bed, right sweetie?

Love, Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 20:03:44 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: and I was around before the Rainbow ...
Message:
when Bill C ran 'Divine Sales,' the jumble shop on Valencia in the Mission, with David Elbez, Mike and several others. I was their spacey new premie on welfare reformed druggie recruit.

Bill lived in the ashram then, and Janet (later to be his wife) was the housemother for the ashram. And there was a picture of the ENTIRE holy family in the shrine room. And we said prayers to all of them!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:51:03 (GMT)
From: justwonderin...
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Bill, Rick and I helped start Rainbow
Message:
Marianne-
did rainbow start in Denver? If that is the case, was a guy named Mankoff involved?

just wonderin....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:04:30 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: justwonderin...
Subject: David Mankoff
Message:
If I am thinking about the same person, do you mean David Mankoff from Queens, New York?

I knew David in San Antonio, I think he ended up in Kansas City, working for the Rainbow Grocery there.

Rainbow Groceries began in several different places.

The Rainbow in San Francisco was never a cult business, although some premies worked there. It was always a 'worker-owned cooperative,' and still is, even it its new, yuppie digs it's in now.

There was a Rainbow in Denver, and a couple in Chicago that were cult businesses, to varying degrees.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:26:12 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Rainbow groc in Denver
Message:
i was in Denver, when Rainbow started there, as the food buying co-op for the ashram and premie houses. it was a big warehouse near downtown at first, where i used to go to bag nuts. then they bought a corner store at york and colfax in 74 and went public, and i went there to bags nuts in the basement. For years rainbow was still a premie business selling to the public, but in the early 90's or late 80's they decided to sell out the retail store to Wild Oats of Boulder and just fall back to being a wholesale warehouse operation, run out of the industrial district in north denver. they called that operation PRem Mark Foods. I went out there and did backed up filing for a week once in the 80's. the hippie-mountain premies still drove down in their vans or pickups to load up a month's worth of rice and beans at a time, at the back loading docks, but the vibe was considerably more distant, businesslike and subdued than the original warehouse felt 10 or 15 years prior. the store on york raised all their prices and rolled right on. no matter how snotty premies were getting, over time, they were still saints, compared to the ruthless rudeness of the wild oats management that came and took over.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:37:45 (GMT)
From: justwonderin...
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: David Mankoff
Message:
joe- thanks for the info. I would like to talk to personally. is that possible through e-mail.

just wonderin...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:28:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: Joger02@aol.com
To: justwonderin...
Subject: Sure
Message:
You can email me here, but I might not be able to respond until later, but I will get back to you when I can.

Joe

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 23:03:10 (GMT)
From: justwonderin...
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sure
Message:
Joe, thanks.
I will be in touch by e-mail later today, hopefully.

justwonderin..

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:35:26 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe is quite correct -- SF Rainbow never cult ...
Message:
business. By the time I came back to SF in 1980 via a transfer from the LA to the SF ashram, there were plenty of people involved in the core workings of Rainbow who were either ex-premies or never-premies.

--F

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 21:35:09 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Now it's Rainbow Natural Foods
Message:
Here's the website http://www.rainbownf.com/

Apparently it was bought out in the 90's though.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 15:27:40 (GMT)
From: GAC
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: RAINBOW = PREM MARK = THE ONAE TRUST
Message:
Postie,

Rainbow Natural Foods of Colorado was acquired by United Natural Foods Inc.... I wonder who the Rainbow Stockholders were?

United Natural Foods

Integration of Recent Acquisitions. A significant portion of the Company's historical growth has been achieved through acquisitions of or mergers with other distributors of natural products. The Company recently acquired or merged with three large regional distributors of natural products: Nutrasource, Inc. ('Nutrasource') in May 1995, Rainbow in July 1995 and Mountain People's in February 1996.

SUBSIDIARIES OF THE REGISTRANT

Rainbow Natural Foods, Inc................................. Colorado

(iv) $2,785,409 due to Prem Mark, Inc. under a term note issued in connection with the Rainbow acquisition that matures July 1998 and bears interest at a rate of 10.0%; and

The financial statements of Prem Mark, Inc. (the predecessor of Rainbow) as of December 31, 1994 and for the fifty-three weeks then ended included herein and in the Registration Statement have been audited by Arthur Andersen LLP, independent public accountants, as indicated in their report with respect thereto, and are included herein in reliance upon the authority of said firm as experts in giving said report.

(1) CORPORATION ORGANIZATION Prem Mark, Inc. (the 'Company'), is wholly owned by The Onae Trust (a Qualified Subchapter S Trust). The Company operates as a distributor of health foods and related products.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:26:46 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Postie
Subject: That's the Denver Rainbow
Message:
The Denver Rainbow Grocery expanded into a food distribution system of sorts in Colorado. That was a cult business, but I had heard it was sold at some point.

The San Francisco Rainbow, however, was and is unaffiliated with that and was never a cult business, and is still a worker-owned cooperative.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:27:37 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne I asked Bill if he remembered you and
Message:
he said yes. He really is a good pal and an all round nice guy. Rick would play John Coltrane after the video events. I hope they see through the gooroo soon and realize that all their beauty is their very own not some reflection of the Captain's.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 23:13:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sunday Funnies (from ELK)
Message:
Thank goodness

Who cares,
what I think.
Who cares,
what I believe.
Who cares
what I have
harmlessly said,
Even I don't care
all that much
But thank goodness,
I can and do care
what I feel,
Thank goodness,
I can and do care,
for what is real.

Stojan Svet
Postojna, Slovenia

-----------------------------------------------------------------
Suggestion

Hello, I live in South Wales. There has never been a large number of people with Knowledge here but we kept going until recently, when all the video and public satellite events came to an end. Although I receive videos by post from the library, I never see another person with Knowledge for months on end and I'm feeling increasingly isolated. I was wondering if you could start a section for people with Knowledge and aspirants all over the world to contact each other directly if they want to. I don't know quite how it would work but maybe something can be worked out. It would really be helpful`.

Thanks, let me know what you think,Celia.

Celia Kane
Swansea, South Wales

EL: We are happy to pass your messages on to anyone who posts on the site. We have actually done this since the site began. As far as we know this has sparked quite a lot of correspondence. So if there is anyone you would like to write to, just send a message to the site and we will forward it for you. We do not make email addresses available on the site because of the public nature of the Internet.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 03:21:53 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'm feeling increasingly isolated.
Message:
Celia Kane says: ''I'm feeling increasingly isolated.''

In Swansea? Swansea is definitely not the boondocks or the outback. The party is over. The end is nigh.

In San Francisco with a population of 750,000 there used to be 200 premies in the 70s. There are now 4. There used to be 7 up until Dec 2000 but three of us left effectively halving the community.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:27:33 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Well I'll be gobsmacked!
Message:
Pat:

Are you serious? I had no idea it had fallen apart to this extent. Hallelulia! or some other appropriate expression of joy!

I wonder what's up in LA, where even on a Wednesday evening we'd get 300 folks at the Westwood Hall circa 1978-80.

Are you sure that some of them don't have satellite dishes and are now nursing their secret little devotion? What is a community these days?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:57:05 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Well I'll be gobsmacked!
Message:
No, I'm serious. Cross my heart. No idea about LA but judging by the events down there that I attended it's the same few hundred clothes horses who have been around since the 70s.

Oakland still has events because of the large Gujerati commnuity in Hayward.

These 7 PWKs were the people who attended video events at Forest Lodge every Tues night until Jan 2001 when it too was discontinued because everyone now has satellites and the only aspirants (who are the Hindu hippie followers of the above bowly shrieker) will never get K as they live on SSI and can't afford to travel to Oakland let alone LA where the last auto-K was held in Nov and to which they were not invited even though they have been watching vids for years.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 17:49:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: I called the information number...
Message:
To find out more about 'videos presenting Maharaji and knowledge' and noted that there are NO video events for the month of February in the Bay Area. Desperate, I called Seattle and they have nothing either, for the entire month. I felst very isolated.

Apparently there is one program in Malibu with Ira Woods this month. I am sure it will be standing room only.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 00:54:15 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sunday Funnies (from ELK)
Message:
Hi Jim,
I just wrote a long and, in my humble opinion, very amusing post, about ELK's poets and Celia in particular. And I just lost the whole lot because there's something funny going on with the forum tonight.

The thing is, I met Celia recently, on a train, and I now understand how important the new satellite era is. You don't have to mix with premies!!! Especially Celia. The Fatrat is getting older, if not wiser, and the ageing premies are delighted to just sit back, turn on and tune in...It's a great success.

Love Kelly

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:29:28 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Kelly
Subject: Sunday Funnies (from ELK)
Message:
I do agree that some of the still committed premies I know are watching videos in the privacy of their own home.

It remains to be seen if the TV/Satellite freaks will be able to support his expensive and/or nasty habits. Let's hope not.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 11:25:18 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It's all over. We've won.
Message:
I think the battle may be over. All the signs point to the same thing.

There are no premies posting on the forum any more. Those that have stayed around and engaged us in conversation, have started leaving the cult before our very eyes.

Captain Rawat has battened down the hatches. He shows his face less and less in public, prefering to manifest himself via DVD and “live satellite broadcasts” of pre-recorded tapes.

His “last-chance to save the cult festival” looks like being a complete flop. The registration and camping fees are so extortionate, many premies are saying, “Enough is Enough. Why doesn’t he just break into my house and steal the money that way. Then I could claim the insurance. Let’s go on holiday. We can sleep in a hotel instead of a dormitory tent, by the sea instead of in the wilderness, and save $3000.”

His reputation is in tatters, and there’s more to come.

Attendance and income from satellite events are down.

Some big-time donators have stopped donating (It’s not about money anyway, so what the hell.)

It looks like it’s all over. There may be the odd die-hard premie, hiding out in the jungle, who hasn’t surrendered yet. (I’m going down to Oz next year to personally deprogram my old pal Catweazle.) but everyone else has gone home to their families to clean up the mess, turn their Peter Frampton CDs into coasters, and cancel their standing orders.

The premies have finally come to their senses. We knew they would in the end, God Bless ‘em. This leaves Captain Rawat hiding out in his mansion, waiting for the Challenger and the Speedboat to be repossed, wondering where it all went wrong.

Don’t worry Captain. There’s Phase 2 coming up soon, and that should be fun too, “Captain Rawats Luxury Used Car Mart.”. We can drive past and tell our grandchildren, you see that little bald Indian bloke selling that rusty Merc’. He used to get dressed up as Krishna, and I used to line up to kiss his feet.”

Anth, “Ah the things we did when we were young.”


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 04:25:17 (GMT)
From: Victoria Bitter
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's all over. We've won.
Message:
Anth , you naughty boy! Registration has not commenced yet. Anywhere. What are you talking about?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Feb 13, 2001 at 13:21:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Victoria Bitter
Subject: Semantics Victoria
Message:
Just because nobodys given any money yet, doesn't mean the shop's not open. (My spies tell me 7 people had registered by the start of this week.)

When did you every hear of any official in the cult, ever refusing any cash for anything Victoria?

How far from the mark am I with my early announcement about the registration ($aus900) and the cost to stay in the tent barracks ($2000)?

Are you going? Will you take the children? As you do service there, will you get in for free?

How's the family by the way?

Have you read Michael Dettmers accounts of life in the fast lane? What's your opinion?

Here's hoping you're not afraid to answer your old pals questions.

Anth the Shipstones Mild.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 21:14:18 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: so he'll sulk away w his 100 million bucks
Message:
I don't think he'll die unable to find entry into a safe port like Rajneesh with those kinda bucks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 20:52:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Hey Anth, what info do you have about this?
Message:
Hi Anth,

Interesting observations, some of which I have noticed myself.

There are no premies posting on the forum any more. Those that have stayed around and engaged us in conversation, have started leaving the cult before our very eyes.

I think there are MANY premies reading the forum, but it does seem true that almost nobody attempts to defend Maharaji anymore. In the past, at least there were a few people, but no more. And Turner is sounding more like has has lost his moorings entirely.

His “last-chance to save the cult festival” looks like being a complete flop. The registration and camping fees are so extortionate, many premies are saying, “Enough is Enough. Why doesn’t he just break into my house and steal the money that way. Then I could claim the insurance. Let’s go on holiday. We can sleep in a hotel instead of a dormitory tent, by the sea instead of in the wilderness, and save $3000.”

Do you have inside information on this? I know there have been reports of disappointing fundraising for Amaroo, but are people not signing up for the event in the desert this time? That's too bad. What are they to do?

You know, at least in the USA the economy isn't what it used to be. I mean we haven't seen a downturn, but there are signs that people are a little more careful about how they spend their money. I guess the question is whether being with the master is an essential, or more a factor of disposable income.

Where I live in 'dot.com-land' there are a lot of 20-somethings with worthless stock options who aren't patronizing the expensive restaurants the way they used to. If any of them are premies, they might feel Maharaji is something less of a priority than he used to be.

Attendance and income from satellite events are down.

Again, do you have information on this? I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case. Many here have predicted that the novelty would wear off quickly, and it would go the way of 'video events' that nobody goes to except the pathologically lonely. It's most peoples' idea of nothing to do. I mean, how many times can you watch M rehash the same meaningless stuff? At least at events there is the possibility of a group high, but in your living room, isn't there a great temptation to switch on Frasier, or the new 'Survivor' instead, because nobody is watching?

If the 'big doners' stop donating, boy he is in trouble, because M goes through money like it's going out of style (as my Mother used to say).

What makes you say that?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:07:38 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Anth, what info / Joe, here's a little Info:
Message:
Joe-I know there are a few VERY BIG donors(like maybe a half dozen or so)that have given regularly for years. If one or two of them quit, it's a BIG hit for the cult coffers.

As far as satellite revenues go, there was a BIG push during the last year to get everyone signed up as a donor, preferably via credit card. The reasoning was probably that once you're signed up for automatic withdrawals on the credit card, you will tend to forget about it and just go with the monthly withdrawal process.
They started by requesting $50/apiece, but I think it is now $75, with $100 being the 'preferred donor' status....

Once m realized he could suck all the money out of the local communities, and nothing was going on there anyway, he made a big grab for the satellite bucks....

I think this will help the further demise of the cult, because once the novelty wears off, and the drivel is seen for what it is, I think many people will quietly cancel their monthly subscriptions, go less,and then quietly fade away...

It's funny, I recently have been attending a Unitarian Church that a friend goes to. She is a regular contributing member, and pays about $75/month to the church (same as the satellite donors)....they have a huge complex of buildings, beautiful hall, meeting facilities, bookstore, child care facilities, community programs involving working with the poor, homeless, AIDS victims, environmental issues, weekly lectures on spiritual topics, free classes on meditation and visualization,a great minister who is really wonderful,other visiting speakers, music groups, social outings etc...you name it, they got it...

I compared what you get there for your $75/month, with the m satellite donor program, and was just astonished....how can he ever think this will succeed? $75-100/month for more and more drivel...and you can watch it all alone now....

Ah, the strange and final days of a dying cult...an interesting and frightening sight to behold....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:01:55 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: But they save animals at Amaroo!!!(nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 12:23:43 (GMT)
From: ViC Bitter
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: It's all over. We've won.
Message:
Anth, if only you knew. You are starting to sound like Noddy on a Sunny day.Poor Anth he's babbling in his dribble...Ps I do not have any connection with John ,as I keep telling you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:16:34 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: ViC Bitter
Subject: It's all over. We've won.
Message:
Sorry Vic,

I must have got it all wrong. So, attendance and donations are up, propagation is happening, new people are queuing up to follow the Perfect Master of our Age.

And the existing premies aren't leaving in droves, they're becoming more inspired.

Because all that stuff Michael told us about procuring women for him, drunken driving, killing a cyclist then driving off, it's all bullshit right VIC?

And why should I think you have a connection with somebody called John? I don't even know who you are- as you apparently don't want to use your own name.

Anth who knows a sinking ship when he sees one.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 00:21:39 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: bshaw8@bellsouth.net
To: ViC Bitter
Subject: Hey you
Message:
Still waiting for that email!

Half the time I can't make out what the heck you're talking about. Used to hate that at school, you know, when you were on the outside of some clique or other and they'd start talking in code, nods and winks. What is it Anth is supposed to know? I still get all the EV mailings and premie gossip and I haven't seen or heard anything that contradicts what he said. And who's John?

Are you going to Amaroo? I've not heard of anyone else who has that kind of money to throw away. I guess its turning out more like Scientology every day - another chic Spiritual LoveBoat for wealthy misfits.

I know you don't I? That's why you won't write.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 11:59:14 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Will the Amaroo event be cancelled?
Message:
Anth: You once predicted the April event in Amaroo would be cancelled because it would be too costly given the few registrants. Does this still look to be a possibility? Do you know how many have actually registered?

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 15:28:41 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I know of 7 people
Message:
who are deciding weather or not to kick in the $5-6000 for the weekend camping adventure. So far only 3 have purchased airline tickets, but have yet to splurge for the luxury accommodations (pup tents). A couple have an in with an Aussie woman in Brisbane, and may stay with her and commute to the site. These would be the Premies within the second twenty rows of seats (not quite the front row, although they know some of the ones in the first rows by name). I have a feeling that there may be some empty seats at this event. Will they call in the locals and allow them to do service to his highness by attending the show for free? Can't wait to hear the details-If they go.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:19:36 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: So far 7 people have registered...
Message:
...for Amaroo. A further 15 people are waiting to hear if they can get a second mortgage so they can afford to stay in the barrack tents.

I have this straight from the mouth of a high up Aussie Co-ordinator, who knows somebody called 'John'.

Anth, bursting into song, 'The Party's over. It's time to call it a day.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 15:49:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Very funny (nt)
Message:
fffffff
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 01:36:52 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: I hope not because.....
Message:

.... I've been away for a few days , visiting old friends , talking face to face about all this stuff that we've all been into since forever.

Big doubts coming in now , but : I met a lite era premie for the 1st time.

A woman with an immense generosity of spirit .

Has had serious mental health problems .

No job , no money , no bloke .

Early 30's , fat (doesn't give a shit about being fat).

She's going to Amaroo on the back of some sort of compensation money , & will be totally fucked up if it's cancelled.

I couldn't tell her that Rawat was a fake , she wouldn't have understood my reasons .

So I told her sister .(non premie)

Pass the buck , oh well.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 22:18:27 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Amarula is better than Amaroo
Message:

Amarula Cream Liqueur from South Africa is made from the berries of the Elephant tree, socalled because the fermented berries are the favorite intoxicant of pachyderms. It costs $20 a bottle and is a much better bargain than the $5,000 needed to drink Kool-aid in Amaroo.

How did Capt Rawat come up with the name ''Amaroo?'' He crossed his youngest son, Amar, with a kangaroo.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 05:53:29 (GMT)
From: Bazza
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: ...and I quote,
Message:
from 'Strange Gods - The Great American Cult Scare' Bromley, David and Shupe, Anson, Beacon Press 1981, pp 141-2

****************************************************************
The most consistent and emotional charge made against leaders of the new religions has been that they weild dictatorial power over church member activities.......The guru's insatiable lust for power provides the explanation for manipulation and abuse of members......Some statements by leaders of the (cults)...do little to allay the fears of those who believe them, for example, that of Guru Maharaj Ji:

'So whatever extra you have got, give it to me. And the extra thing you have got is your mind. Give it to me. I am ready to receive it. Because your mind troubles you, give it to me. It won't trouble me! Just give it...So just try to be holy and try to be a good devotee, a perfect devotee of that Guru who is Himself perfect, who is really perfect.'

Taken from 'You Are Disciples Now' Satsang given at Hampstead Town Hall, London, England, October 31, 1971
****************************************************************
Don't ya just love this stuff??

Plenty more where that came from.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 06:06:35 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: None
To: Bazza
Subject: Guru who is Himself perfect.........
Message:
I sometimes wonder what Capt Rawat's kids think when they see shit like that. Are they also so out to lunch that they don't think it's weird?

Wadi: ''Hey, Dad, did you really used to tell people to give you their minds? Where did you keep them? I mean the triple garage is full to overflowing with gulab jamums from the stupid old Indian bai in Hayward.''

But seriously can you imagine telling your kids that you are greater than God?

''Yeah, right, Dad! So how come you can't get that cool surfer dude down the road at Trancas canyon Super market to just like me you know just a teensy-weensy little bit?''

''Well, Wadi, what I meant is that My Knowledge is greater than god.''

''Well, tell your Knowledge to get him to fuck me, Dad.''

Either his kids are living in a cocoon like ETs or they will soon be asking some very awkward questions if they are anything like normal American kids.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 07:05:38 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Pat Conlon
Subject: Guru who is Himself perfect.........
Message:
Just in case there is any doubt left in anybody's mind that we worshipped this unlikely deity, I quote from my 1977 journal:

...and there He was again, another city, another tunnel.
Do I actually live in those times in-between
or is it all a dream and His Eyes the only reality?
With nothing to give Him but my whole self
I begged Him in my heart to let me surrender.

When I saw His Feet I didn't feel empty any more,
or self-conscious; just saw how beautiful they were
in thinnest black socks, so close to my lips...
I froze, suspended in mid-air, hypnotized by His Feet.
Then I remembered, 'Oh yes, I can kiss them,'
and I wasn't as gentle as i wanted to be,
although I was as gentle as i could be;
and when my lips left His Feet they formed the words
'I love You,' and it was as much Him saying it to me
as it was me saying it to Him, because my mind
had nothing to do with forming those words;
they just came out un-pre-thought.
(I was still very close to His Feet,
un-straightened-up from kissing...)

...and then I remembered I was in The Line,
and Maharaj Ji is Tired, and Keep Moving,
and the Hand on the Shoulder; all the pre-conditioning
from all the darshan lines;
and I was sure I had been at His Feet
for a long,long time...

...so I started to run,
but I was so happy it was more like a dance,
only four little quick steps, really,
just enough to make the skirt of my wedding dress
flare out and swirl around me; and a sister
oh so gently took my elbow, thinking I was out of it;
and I guess I must have been,
because when she touched me I started seeing again,
without being able to remember when I had stopped...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 02:44:12 (GMT)
From: Pat Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Babs
Subject: Babs, I'll read with pleasure anything you write
Message:
or have written. Thanks you for your Journey. I hope you will publish a book about your cult experiences. In fact a book about anything written by you would be enjoyable. If you ever need a proof reader just let me know.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 16:40:57 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: Working title for Babs book : 'And It Was Divine'
Message:
or 'And It Was My Mind'.

I agree with Conlon, Marianne, and Jim. Keep those old journal pages coming. It helps flush out all the old cobweb concepts while you tell it like it was. Having 'done service' in those blue tunnels, we especially kept a watchful eye on you twinkle-toed bliss bunnies and were ready to catch you in mid-swoon and whisk you away to darshan recovery. But darshan lines only happened once or twice way back when M was a victim of all those Hindu concepts we forced on him. (ironic smirk from the colonies)

Postie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 19:24:46 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: or maybe 'And It Was Denial' n/t
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 23:43:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: But surely you can't blame him for THAT?!
Message:
Babs,

As any good premie knows, Maharaji isn't responsible for any such conditioning evidenced by your fawning drivel of yesterday. Clearly, you were confused, don't you think? In case you haven't noticed, Maharaji explains on his own website:

Quite a few people wanted to see me as a figurehead. I didn't want to be one and I am not one. A few others saw me as a leader, and I didn't want to be one and I am not one.

So obviously any 'worshipping' taking place was all your trip. He certainly had nothing to do with it.

Time and time again, people have projected these kinds of fantasies on the true master when he comes into the world. He comes to save us all and we mistakenly call him our saviour. I guess that's the problem. Something like that anyway.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 08:06:02 (GMT)
From: babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Jim
Subject: But surely you can't blame him for THAT?!
Message:
Check out this site for more on the subject.
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/charisma.htm
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 09:54:14 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: babs
Subject: Jim was practicing the fine art of irony
Message:
Babs, Jim was speaking with his tongue firmly planted in his cheek. That's how he is. It's sort of his way of telling you how much he liked your post.

He is the mother of assorted controversies here. And he is my friend.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 22:38:14 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I have a question about devotion
Message:
I have to ask this question because its something that bothers me a lot.

At the height of your devotion, would any of you have been prepared to commit an illegal or violent act if you had been asked to do so in the name of your beliefs?

The reason that I am asking you all this question is that I have come to the conclusion that I cannot afford to believe in anything other than what I can see and touch because if I do, that would open me to manipulation.

Mark
ex premie circa 1979

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 15:12:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Illegal and violent acts.
Message:
Hi Mark,

First you need to put things in perspective. The creation is the property of the creator. When the creator is here in person, everything still belongs to him, even if others think it belongs to them.

So, stealing for the Lord, is not really stealing. There was never a problem with this, even in the Ashram. I believe that most of the stage for Guru Puja 1973 was stolen from building sites around London.

As regards violence, well, Krishna summed it up when he told Arjuna to go and slaughter his Uncles and Cousins, 'You can't kill them because their real self has never been born and is eternal'- excuse my summarising the Bhagavad Gita in a sound bite.

The cult used to have it's own army, called the WPC. They had military training on Clapham Common, and I believe, even dabbled with small-scale explosives occasionally. This was in the cult hey'days of the early 70s, when we expected everybody in the world would have received 'Knowledge' by 1985 and lion would be shagging the lamb.

Anth the cult historian.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Feb 12, 2001 at 04:20:46 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Name confusion
Message:
Mark,

It appears we have two 'Marks' posting in the Active Index. The other one has been around for a while and originally posted as Mark A------ [name withheld], but I notice he has posts below in conversation with magnolia, where he signs himself simply Mark.

As the newcomer, would you mind adding an initial (doesn't have to be your own) after your name (not 'A' obviously) so we can tell you two apart?

Thank you

FA

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 20:23:18 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: I have a question about devotion
Message:
Mark I could never have been someone who was violent for M.
But I did do a lot of things that went against what I really felt and thought and wanted.
And I saw behavior in others in the 70's - especially that security goon squad - that made me wonder what the mass hysteria could bring about if pushed.
Tucson festival scared me a LOT when they wouldnt' let me and my 2 babies out of the Convention Center hall, I needed to leave to take care of their needs and the goons tried to stop me, PHYSICALLY shoved me then, as I left anyway and told them fuck off, they said it was on my head that I was going against agya.
Morons we had all been sitting in there all damned day listening to those PAMS gush their brains out.
It isnt' too far a stretch to imagine them taking it to the next step. Nowadays I doubt they would they are all too busy protecting M's new image.

Selene, bringing it back left and, ahem, 'to the topic at hand'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:29:15 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: I have a question about devotion
Message:
I am sure many premies broke the law on orders from Maharaji or believing the order was from Maharaji. Tax laws, UK charity laws, health and safety laws (DECA stuff for instance), customs laws (the briefcase full of jewellery in India), local land use laws (Amaroo), harboring criminals (Fakiranand, Jagdeo), etc.

I was never tested, but I'm sure I would have broken tax laws or similar. Would I have been violent? Well I was never much good at that, so I don't know.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 01:40:54 (GMT)
From: Postie
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Yes, and I did break the law in the line of duty.
Message:
While at IHQ in Denver mid 70's, I collected unemployment benefits and food stamps so I could continue working at IHQ. While I was supposedly out looking for work, I was 'doing service'. This was not directed by M but the understanding was, whatever it takes to further GMJ and DLM / DUO was OK. The implication being that anything done as 'service' was above the law.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:07:19 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Answer: NO...................nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:17:03 (GMT)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: Ok, but does this mean that.....
Message:
you were not 100% devoted and harboured some doubts or that your devotion was not pushed to its limits or what?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:22:30 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Ah shut up will you
Message:
I said no. Cann't you read. And yes I was too stupid to follow that fat cunt rawat. And yes I was devoted to the bastard, but I am glad I did not have to break the law for him or his dumb ass mission.

Tell you what, am ready to do illegel things if I have the chance to get close to him but, like punching him in the face or throughing a bucket of piss at him.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:26:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: or a sausage pie
Message:
Hey S what is up with AG? Did one of the seven faces of Cat put a spell on it or what?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:35:02 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hot board sucks like Jim.Ooops like rawat
Message:
very sllloooowwww loading. All the bloody Americans wanting to talk about something or another, you know weekend, so their server is most likely having trouble coping.

Anyway I do not understand what this character want to know about devotion anyway. Do you? I mean we were conned and that is all there is to it, he also does seem to understand what a no is. I wonder if it is the N or the O.

I am trying to get one of my post deleted by mistake. So do recon that Jim sucks. He is doing a fantastic job in scaring everyone away. What do recon? You dance with him, maybe you have the inner word.

(waiting to be deleted)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Feb 10, 2001 at 23:46:26 (GMT)
From: SqueakyJi
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I didn't ask for that picture
Message:
And would be happy to see it go it was a smile the first time but not really representative of our deep and true feelings :)
Don't know why the devotion thing is confusing him but then, I was just a follower and easily influenced, don't know if I ever felt real sincere devotion. One time when he first came here to the US I was invited to a small intimate dinner with him and the
'HOLY ' family in a very very Catholic Italian neighborhood in Philidelphie. I remember premeies lining up to pranam outiside and I looked around at the neighbors and thought, no way, they'll kill me. I didn't praname and the ones that did got screamed at by the neighbors.

Yeah damned americans. I was thinking of you and Sir Dave when I read the slashdot FAQ.In particular this one:
Qustion : Slashdot seems to be very U.S.-centric. Do you have any plans to be more international in your scope?

ANSWER:
Slashdot is U.S.-centric. We readily admit this, and really don't see it as a problem. Slashdot is run by Americans, after all, and the vast majority of our readership is in the U.S. We're certainly not opposed to doing more international stories, but we don't have any formal plans for making that happen. All we can
really tell you is that if you're outside the U.S. and you have news, submit it, and if it looks interesting, we'll post it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 00:08:30 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: SqueakyJi
Subject: Very Clever girl
Message:
Did not know you were close to the dumb family, tell us more please. I always knew that you harbor secret feeling to Jim.

I think someone should start something on the line of 'Society for the Education of Americans' withthe purpose of telling them that America is only a small part of the planet and people do live in other places, the die, have children, go to school and there mothers do love them as much as the American and the Canadians do.

But hay slashdot has an interesting thing about sucking


Is Sucks OK

And by the way, there is no point in posting on AG, as anything you say will be reposted here, so you may as well save yourself the grusome task of waiting an hour to get connected and say what you want here. The FA will delete it anyway. (but only by mistake, if you catch my meaning)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 00:22:37 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: salam
Subject: the dinner - not much to tell
Message:
It was some premie owned vegie restaurant in the heart of Catholic Italian hood. Very intense atmosphere outside.
Inside we sat very close to their table but were totally ignored.
Don't even know how I ended up there someone told someone and they just let us in. Those were the days before his ego was poofed out to the max. Of course I thought it quite magical at the time and a sign I was destined for great things in the inner circle. But I had an awful habit of caring for my family first. So, no PAM-dumb followed. A few more close encounters but nothing to write home about.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 00:58:53 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: the dinner - not much to tell
Message:
Pompus ass holes rawat and his mum. They thought the world owed them something. The moron trats people like they are some kind garbadge to through away. Has anyone ever heared him saying thank you for doing all the things that you did to me. For making me a multimillionar, for buying me planes and boats and delapitated houses.

Instead he comes out and abuses people, and talk for an hour or two about how great he and his shitty no-lije is and how people should look up for him because he is the ass of the universe and he will balst us to nothing is we don't get up his creek.

Anyway, I had enough of this, talk to you in 4 weeks. Haha

Hey am thinking of making a secret forum with password, so disrubtive elements do not come in, what do you recon? Tell me on rawatsucks forum,

Take care everyone

and remember


Crabby@rawatsucks

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 07:19:00 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Mark
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
In answer to your original question, I would work for Dow Chemical, maker of napalm, burner of babies, and turn over 100% of my salary to Divine Light Mission. I would take a felony rap and serve three years' probation. But when news of the Jonestown massacre reached me in the ashram, and I heard blissful satsang from devoted premies, expressing the hope that we too would be able to obey with unquestioning minds should Maharaj Ji ever require the ultimate sacrifice, it was finally too much.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 22:11:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Babs
Subject: That's heavy
Message:
But I can't decide which is worse: a felony rap, or working for Dow Chemical, the company that brought us the Bophal massacre and then tried to blame it on the victims. What was the felony conviction about?

I was dishonest about a couple of leases for ashrams, not telling the landlords that 17 or 20 people might be living there. Then, John Hampton ordered me to breach one of the leases and I refused, because the landlord had been very good to us and I didn't want to do that to her. Hampton gave me 'satsang' that Maharaji did that kind of stuff all the time, and dishonesty in serving a higher purpose was okay. I still didn't do it; I figured out some other way to handle it.

I always thought 'propagation' was very dishonest. I remember we were told to go around pretending to be doing a 'survey on meditation' to hopefully open up a dialogue to proselytize to them. It felt really dishonest, and, of course, it didn't work, just like nothing else really worked, other than personal friendships, in harrassing people into receiving knowledge.

I did illegal stuff on behalf of Elan Vital, when I lied to people about what they were donating their money towards. For example, Elan Vital instructed us to lie and say we were raising money for a 'world tour' when in fact it was for the Boeing 707 plane for Maharaji. I never felt right about that either.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 07:54:47 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Babs
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
You're serious? Premies actually said they'd drink the cyanide?! This sickens me.

Babs, was your friend who died in Guyana Terry (Theresa) Carter?

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Feb 11, 2001 at 07:58:57 (GMT)
From: Babs
Email: ralphie@ralphiescafe.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Teresa King.
Message:
Not the same person.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index