Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:25:46 (GMT)
From: Jan 24, 2001 To: Jan 29, 2001 Page: 4 Of: 5


Joe -:- More on the demographics of the cult -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:32:19 (GMT)
__ Patrick Conlon -:- More on the demographics of the cult -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:06:20 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Divine bric a brac -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 05:14:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- bill, aren't you up late? -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 05:34:54 (GMT)
__ just wonderin -:- More on the demographics of the cult -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:55:11 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- More on the demographics of the cult -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:59:54 (GMT)
__ jondon -:- More on the demographics of the cult -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:27:17 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Oh, Jondon, please -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:37:17 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Being god excuses everything .... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:49:19 (GMT)
__ Ian Dury -:- More on the demographics of the cult -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:28:50 (GMT)
__ ulf -:- More on the demographics of the cult -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:22:49 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- More on the demographics of the cult -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:58:49 (GMT)
__ __ Kelly -:- More on the demographics of the cult -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:51:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Paul -:- More on the demographics of the cult -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:40:52 (GMT)

RT -:- SATsong: Goodbye, Lotus Toes Daze -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:18:23 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- GREAT! DON'T MISS THIS FOLKS -nt- -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 17:04:46 (GMT)
__ Steve Quint -:- Sheesh NT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:53:35 (GMT)
__ Francesca -:- Way to go, RT! n/t -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:37:19 (GMT)

Gregg -:- Jim: Karma: (from thread below) -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:09:39 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Jim: Karma: (from thread below) -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:16:41 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- very interesting response... -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:34:07 (GMT)
__ __ JHB -:- Mine's a pint -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:22:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- You miss the point -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:52:31 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Let's remember how this started -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:45:39 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Yeah, let's -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:33:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- I volunteer to represent Jim -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:14:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- I volunteer to represent Jim -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:25:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Your fatal flaw -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:13:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- My fable flow -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:22:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- My fable flow -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:40:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- My fable flow -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:07:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- My fable flow -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 22:13:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- My fable flow -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 02:30:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Good question -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:28:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- I think you answered the question. -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:37:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- to answer the question ... -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:16:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- 'Garbage in, garbage out'...Computer Science 101 -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:30:56 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- I see what you mean... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:17:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sandy -:- All you had to do was ask me... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:40:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- All you had to do was ask me... -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:30:14 (GMT)
__ Patrick Conlon -:- Karma -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:44:19 (GMT)
__ __ Sandy -:- Karma -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:46:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Poverty -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:19:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Poverty -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:40:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Poverty -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:46:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Inspriation inebriation -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:41:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Inspriation inebriation -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:30:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Oh God, I'm not Dylan Thomas! Or Bob either! -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:15:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- God, Sandy, I had no idea -- I'm so sorry -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 13:24:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Psst... -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:19:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Thanks for the reference post JohnT,love ya babe! -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:28:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Thanks Sandy, but I'll have to take a raincheck... -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 20:36:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Raincheck it is -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 02:43:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- The power of poetry -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 05:29:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- John - S left-handed -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 06:43:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- If being able to read people is brain damage, -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 14:47:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- You think you can read people? -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 21:32:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- You think you can read people? -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 03:01:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's the use, Jerry? -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 03:37:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- Your private country club, Jim? -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 05:21:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- My problem with this is... -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:09:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- My main purpose here -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:55:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sandy -:- All clear -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:34:16 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- EV-DLM Papers Download site just updated -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 15:47:29 (GMT)

Cynthia -:- My monitor is about to Sh*t the bed so...(OT) -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:58:43 (GMT)

Susan -:- A question about what sort of people become premie -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:47:46 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- Snap Susan , I' ve been thinking about ... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:12:21 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Ah Bin Liner.. -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:17:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bin Liner -:- Tried to e mail you didn't work I'll give -:- Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 01:07:32 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Life in the World Wide Web. -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:54:37 (GMT)
__ __ The Fat Fag -:- Anth, if you change Fatguruantula to Ratguruantula -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:10:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- I'm not a fatist fat fag -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:07:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ The Fat Fag -:- Anth, you may not be a fatist -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:29:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- On my back, limbs in the air. -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:45:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ The Fat Fag -:- Anth, I just knew you were a ticklee -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:10:50 (GMT)
__ __ Disculta -:- About webs -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:07:40 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Life in Amsterdam with Anth --OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:57:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Especially as I live in Utrecht. -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:09:53 (GMT)
__ Way -:- types of premies -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 16:23:54 (GMT)
__ __ cv -:- types of premies -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:02:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Welcome, cv, look forward to more from you NT -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 20:11:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Welcome, cv! -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:27:47 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- Current assessment= 1/3,1/3,1/3,... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:20:59 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Great post -- preserved some place? Webmaster? -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:56:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi Joe -- OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:03:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Hi Marianne-- OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:15:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hi from the FH -OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:21:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Well behaved! -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 13:53:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- the mkost conservative fer sur -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:37:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Happy birthday, sweetie darling -OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:26:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hi Marianne -- OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:10:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- You were great, Joe! -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:17:55 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick Conlon -:- A very current assessment= 1/3,1/3,1/3,... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- maybe 1/4,1/2,1/4,+the current cult/lite mindset.. -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 14:48:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Clark Kent/Superman analogy brilliant -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:03:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Patrick -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:18:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- To Way - sent you email NT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:49:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- You don't feed steak to a baby! -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 15:25:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Way, sent you email -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:48:46 (GMT)
__ Patrick Conlon -:- A question about what sort of people become premie -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:00:46 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- a comment to Susan, a ? to Patrick -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:51:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- South Africa -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:55:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- South Africa -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:01:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Hi Robyn -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:03:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Hi Robyn -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:12:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Open up your Golden Gate OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:18:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Open up your Golden Gate, WOW, OT -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:39:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Robyn, how far away do you live? -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:48:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Robyn, how far away do you live? -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Robyn, thanks from nosy me NT -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:24:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marshall -:- I'm there! -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:02:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Disculta -:- I'm there! -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:10:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I'm (also) there! nt -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:13:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Joe, Disculta, Marshall, Marianne -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:19:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Hey Pat -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:23:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Hey Marianne -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:28:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Moveable Feast -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Monmot, I'll feed you roast tails of the City NT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:31:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Best In The City, No Doubt....:-))).......NT -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:08:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- hi Monmot --OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:10:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- hi Marianne --OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:17:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hey Patrick -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Hey Joe -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:45:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- New forum -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:22:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- New forum -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:46:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- a clarification -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:37:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Robyn, a fag hag is a girl who loves gay boys NT -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:50:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- That's one hell of a sad love pattern, eh?!(nt) -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:08:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- That's one hell of a sad love pattern -NOT -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:26:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- oh, then I'm proud to be one! Fag-hag! :)(nt) -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 14:12:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bless you Robyn.... -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 21:59:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nick Danger, Third Eye -:- Also Known As Fruit Flies......... NT -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:02:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- San Fran - city of fruits , nuts and vegetables NT -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:28:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ TED Farkel -:- Hey Joe,you takin aspirants too?My brother... -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:01:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Thelma -:- TED, your brother's not gay - he'd fuck anything -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:54:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Joe, sweetie darling, that would be absolutely OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:33:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- oh, please, please say yes, please -OT, nt -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:34:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Marianne, Joe, Marshal, Disculta et al -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:49:00 (GMT)

TED Farkel -:- Mr.eDrek-need help on Blue Aquarius tunes..... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 03:55:14 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Mr.eDrek-need help on Blue Aquarius tunes..... -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:08:37 (GMT)
__ Marianne -:- TED, I'm gettin' a DIVORCE, as Tammy Wynette says -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:41:09 (GMT)
__ __ TED Farkel -:- Marianne, before you do anything rash,could you -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:45:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- TED, eDrek will vouch for my wiles and charms -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 15:34:11 (GMT)
__ Brian S -:- How about slip slidin away. by the EX Premie Band -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:07:11 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- and ' 50 ways to leave your lover' -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:00:13 (GMT)
__ __ Thelma -:- Brian, why do you have to encourage TED? -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:44:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- I am an equal opportunity encourager, Patrick -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:25:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Brian, do not encourage TED -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:53:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Soul Rush 2001 will be coming to San Francisco -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 07:16:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- eDrek is it true? You set this ol' hippie's heart -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 08:00:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Brian S -:- Ok patrick, I have had my fun for the day (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 07:09:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet the fag hag -:- 2 snaps up, mae! let me read YOUR beads-- -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:16:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Thelma -:- Yes, Janet, but everyone knows that your friend -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:26:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- 2 snaps up, mae! let me read YOUR beads-- -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 13:42:49 (GMT)

blood -:- does any one here remember this incident -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:00:02 (GMT)
__ kap -:- does any one here remember this incident i do -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:07:06 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- It was Mahatma Vijayanand -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:06:48 (GMT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Vij was fond of the female premies -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 14:23:16 (GMT)
__ __ bill -:- Mahatma Vijayanand -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:22:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Mahatma Vijayanand..David Summersong?!!?!! -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:51:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- David Summersong -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 00:07:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bill -:- I'll get a copy and post it.-nt -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:20:49 (GMT)
__ __ Kap -:- It was Mahatma Vijayanand -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:18:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ janet -:- Vijay went on to become the first manmath-- -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:09:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ kap -:- Vijay was denonced as i was twice in satsang -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:24:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ blood -:- what's the story on bill patterson -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 23:01:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ EXiT -:- I heard Bill was living in Oregan. Not sure NT -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 07:17:57 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:32:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: More on the demographics of the cult
Message:
I realize that the Maharaji cult is a whole lot smaller than it used to be and that there is virtually no propagation going on, and what is going on, as promulgated by the inept Maharaji, is a joke ('knowledge packets' that all but the more dire-hard PWKs make fun of, for example.)

But of the remaining 2,000 or so relatively active PWKs in North America, (by Elan Vital's own statistics) who is it that are really running things in this relatively tiny organization? Who is the backbone of what is left of the organization?

It appears from what I can tell that the people who became premies during the period Maharaji openly claimed to be God, and openly demanded worship and total dedication from his followers, are the ones who are still running things, into their very middle age.

Sheldon Jaffe is the most recent example (he was around at least since 1973, and was always a low-level DLM bureaucrat and maybe now is fulfilling his dream of being a PAM), as is Marcia Leitner, Booth Dyess, Terry Yingling, Linda Gross, Ted Leavitt, Dannielle Fitzpatrick, David Smith, the Amtext crowd, the aging 'One Foundation,' John Adorney, Steve Gross, not to mention Monica Lewis and the very special participation she does, and I think the list goes on.

So, I have a question. Are there any people who received knowledge in the past 5 - 10 years who are PAMs, in leadership positions, instructors, etc.?? Or are all these people, as it appears, relics from the 70s?

And this may be one of Maharaji's dilemmas. As people have commented here, people like Turner and the die-hard cultists really do believe, deep down although they don't dare say it publicly, that Maharaji is God, that the rules don't apply to him as apply to other normal humans, and they are able to make excuses for his outrageous behavior and lack of integrity because that's what they believe. Hence, whatever excesses they see, they are unlikely to freak out about it.

Hence, it seems you almost have to believe that to be taken into the PAM community or even into the leadership, such as it is, in communities. Otherwise, you probably either have no motivation to do that, because it's just a kind of meditation, new-age cult, or you aren't allowed in because if you don't believe Maharaji is God, you don't have the proper 'understanding,' aren't 'synchronized' and therefore don't move up the ladder in the cult organization.

Can anybody think of a fairly recent PWK who is a PAM these days? Is this the way it appears to everyone else?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:06:20 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More on the demographics of the cult
Message:
The interesting thing that I felt when I went back a year ago was that Rev Rawat might actually prefer to just cut all the old crap and sell himself as an inspirational speaker with a special ''gift'' but he wants it both ways and the old die-hards won't budge either.

He would be able to reach a wider audience and make more money - that's what the propagation shit is all about. (And, no I did not meet any premies who were ''participating'' who had come into the cult later than the 70s.)

It is the Superman/Clark Kent mindset of the Rev and these old die-hards which is creating the weird and secretive atmosphere of the current ''church.'' It is impossible to move up in the cult unless you have peerfected the ffith technique - tongue in cheek.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 05:14:32 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Divine bric a brac
Message:
Patrick, I think the various lines of divine giftware and catalogs of perfect master products sent a number of premies off the active list.

How did all that strike you and the church ladies?

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 05:34:54 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: bill, aren't you up late?
Message:
The church-ladies loved the tchochkes to death. They brought tee-shirts and calenders and watches back from Delhi for us poor suckers who could not go. As far as I know even the ordinary civilian PWKs thought they were divine. The only people who would have been grossed out by the divine bric-a-brac would have been snobs like me.
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:55:11 (GMT)
From: just wonderin
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More on the demographics of the cult
Message:
joe,
you list in your statement 'the amtext crowd' and I was wondering if you could expand that group more specifically. Not the Amtext part, but who is in the crowd. In short, name some names. Also some explanation on 'the one foundation.' thanks
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:59:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: just wonderin
Subject: More on the demographics of the cult
Message:
Amtext is the cult book-buying compay which reported to have given millions to Maharaji. Chuck Nathan heads it up, I am told. Sean Brogan and his wife are honchos in it. I'm not sure who the others are, but there are people who post here who know.

One Foundation was/is a band from Australia that was kind of the main cult-band in the 70s and 80s, and I guess is still doing it. They had a kind of reggae beat and I never really cared for them, but there you have it. I saw a video from a program a few years ago, and Kim, the lead singer was singing, but relegated at several points to being a back-up singer to a very chubby Dayalata, as they sang love songs to Daya's father, which was kind of creepy, know what I mean?

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:27:17 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More on the demographics of the cult
Message:
The only ones still hanging on around here are the old time (70's) losers. Some younger ones come in and out, but they seem to be getting a life and letting go of his grip. The old timers still think he really is God, they are firmly entrenched in his grip. They are all heading out to Amaroo for the April Event. That is all they talked about this week, oh yea, I went to a video, first one in months, just wanted to see if I could make it through til the end. He is really starting to make me feel like puking just listening to his incessant whine and repetitve crap. I would'nt fly around the world to see that moron and listen to him recite the same old horse shit over and over and over.....ad vomitus.
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:37:17 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: jondon
Subject: Oh, Jondon, please
Message:
He is really starting to make me feel like puking just listening to his incessant whine and repetitve crap.

Jondon, come on, quite being so obscure and polite. Just come right out and tell us how you feel about listening to Maharaji. ::))

Thanks, BTW

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:49:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Being god excuses everything ....
Message:
Yes Joe, I think you hit the nail on the head. I was thinking about Turner and his ilk, including people dear to me, and realizing that when I did believe M was god, the rules did not apply. And some of my dear ones do believe M is god, or close as one gets to it.

Of course, mind you, my own person faith was only tested by his cars, planes, fancy Beverly Hills shopping sprees, etc., as well as a few stories such as him burying John Hampton alive, pouring all kinds of motor oil and junk in Pranam Bai's hair, etc. Stupid young guru tricks. Ha ha. And stories of him giving Miki and Gary ex-lax, getting them on all 4s, draping a sheet over them, and then sitting on them in an angelic meditation pose for a photoshoot for the centerfold of 'And it is Divine.' Didn't want to drop your guru or fart. The test of devotion!

But I remember hearing old hindi stories told about the drunken perfect master, the one lying in the gutter with an empty bottle and his arm around a hooker, that only the true devotees could recognize.

And back then, the premies were told that the true test would be that if they could still recognize their master, beyond the facade, beyond what seemed. With enough brainwashing or sheer belief, some leaves will not be shaken from the tree.

My modest hopes that are part of the reason for participation in this site is that those who will want lay aside their beliefs and think nakedly, and not be afraid of what the truth really is, may find company here. For the shell shocked athiests, it may be suspending their convictions that meditation doesn't work. For those high on fairy dust, it may be seeing what's around when the dust settles. Ki Jai!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:28:50 (GMT)
From: Ian Dury
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More on the demographics of the cult
Message:
The real inner circle PAM's mostly all live in Malibu, at the feet of the Master, which requires considerable resources. They also share another characteristic - they are all absolutely terrified of and subservient to the Lord of the Universe.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:22:49 (GMT)
From: ulf
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: More on the demographics of the cult
Message:
Here in Denmark , are all PAM`S ,old times premies
People who really think that M is god.
I think nice people who hang on to their old dream
never wanting to see any change in the divine play.
I think that they now being about 50 to 60 years old
they will never leave M, no matter what comes up.
really sad , but that how it is.
How can you admit for yourself that you was wrong
for the last 30 years?

ulf

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:58:49 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: More on the demographics of the cult
Message:
Dear ulf,
'How can you admit for yourself that you was wrong for the last 30 years?'
Hopefully with a little help from their friends and this site!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:51:00 (GMT)
From: Kelly
Email: None
To: ulf
Subject: More on the demographics of the cult
Message:
Ulf asks
'How can you admit for yourself that you was wrong for the last 30 years?
Kelly replies
With great difficulty! but also with great relief.
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:40:52 (GMT)
From: Jean-Paul
Email: None
To: all
Subject: More on the demographics of the cult
Message:
I know premies who are involved with m since more than 25 years. One considers sometimes to commit suicide but will never reconsider her relationship with m. She doens’t want to discuss about that. Absolutely not. Another is aware of his neurotic relationship with m but the fear is too great to leave him. Another one who is quite old has already made his testament, everything for m. All these people have serious problems. Fear and insecurity, they deal with that all the time. They need videos and programm to secure themself. Thet still think that they are on the path of the truth.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:18:23 (GMT)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Everyone
Subject: SATsong: Goodbye, Lotus Toes Daze
Message:
What we actually paid (donated time and money) to do. Shoe-it!

Lotus Toes Day
[By Jagger/Richards]

He was paid by Souls - from Darshan funds
[ Master baits, takes booty, and he’s gone.]
The thousand doubts were right.-
~ Ex-Premie’s Inner Site:
Just Say Knows,
No Cash for Toes.

Goodbye, Lotus Toes day!
We could hang the blame on you.
More spare change with every new day
(VISA’s gonna miss you)

Don't question why He needs: It’s Rawat greed;
He loves it when the Premies let it bleed!
He just can't be chained
To a place where nothing’s gained;
Oh, tithing lost!
(A Yacht does cost)

Goodbye, Lotus Toes day!
We could hang the nail on you.
More spare change with every new day
VISA’s gonna miss you...

'There's no time for views,'
I heard Him say.
(Catch your dreams before they chit away)
And It Was Design:
Lose his schemes
Or you will lose your mind.
Ain't Guru kind?

Goodbye, Lotus Toes day
We should hang the blame on you.
More spare change with every new day
Still, I'm gonna blitz you!

Goodbye, Lotus Toes day!
We should hang the blame on you.
More spare change with every new day
Still...I'm gonna bill you!

+++

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 17:04:46 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: GREAT! DON'T MISS THIS FOLKS -nt-
Message:
G
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:53:35 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: RT
Subject: Sheesh NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:37:19 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Way to go, RT! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:09:39 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jim: Karma: (from thread below)
Message:
Here's another definition, from Random House: 'Action, seen as bringing upon oneself inevitable results, good or bad, in this life or in the next.'

I have also heard it defined simply as Action. (or cause and effect)

BTW, I don't know where your first def'n came from, but the Sanskrit cite was wrong. Karma means action (karman: to act), NOT fate, in Sanskrit.

My main point would be that a off-the-shelf dictionary may not provide the most authorative definition of a Hindu/Buddhist term.

One reason is that religious terms often have multiple meanings, and, more importantly, their original mystical meaning is often corrupted into a more superstitious meaning by the masses.

OK, I'm sounding elitist here, but this is what I believe. That the majority of religious practioneers, well-meaning as they may be, are more into idol worship and superstitious religious emotionality than they are into disciplined meditative insight practice.

I'm sure the definitions you cited are included in the understanding of karma promulgated by many Hindu and Buddhist teachers. I'm just saying Webster's may not tell the whole story.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:16:41 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Jim: Karma: (from thread below)
Message:
One reason is that religious terms often have multiple meanings, and, more importantly, their original mystical meaning is often corrupted into a more superstitious meaning by the masses.

Is there really a diference between the two? Since humans are often baffled by their experiences in consciousness, wouldn't it be fair to say that they're superstitious about them to the pint where they mystify them, giving them a mystique which is only a reflection of our ignorance of what they really are?

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:34:07 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: very interesting response...
Message:
tomorrow at work (where I do most of my posting...family life is more demanding than work) I'll respond. This also ties in with a thread I'd like to start about this week's Newsweek article..
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:22:35 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Mine's a pint
Message:
Jerry wisely said:-

Since humans are often baffled by their experiences in consciousness, wouldn't it be fair to say that they're superstitious about them to the pint where they mystify them, giving them a mystique which is only a reflection of our ignorance of what they really are?

Mine's a Timothy Taylor's Landlord.

John the real ale man

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:52:31 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: You miss the point
Message:
Er, I meant to say point. But you at least noticed I 'wisely' said pint. A most astute observation, JHB :)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:45:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Let's remember how this started
Message:
Gregg,

I well appreciate the figurative uses of 'karma' in our society. It, like lots of other superstitious, religious or magical terms are often used just to add a little colour. Thus, we talk about 'computer gurus' and 'tennis gods', 'enlightening lectures' and 'social damnation' (or 'redemption'). Usually there's no problem because we know what the speaker's doing. He's either using the word literally (e.g. 'Hindus believe that killing cows causes bad such bad karma that offenders might not return as humans next life out but as some lower life form') or figuratively (e.g. 'He pissed a lot of people off at work so when no one supported him in his fight against management, it was really his bad karma catching up with him').

But take a look at how Sandy used the word at first:

If God has sent Maharaji to this time and space to tell us that it's OK to live as he lives, as long as we practice Knowledge, we won't incur any karma, then I have been all wrong about God all my adult life. But that doesn't click, y'know?

Sounds pretty literal to me. But you tell me, literal or figurative?

Nigel questioned him about this first and here's what he said:

And do you really believe in karma? If so, why? -Nigel

I have had a garden for almost ten years. You reap what you sow. If the weeds grow and you don't tend to them, they will most likely choke out your garden. If it's dry and you don't water, your crop will perish. I don't mean to sound elementary in a demeaning way, but I see karma as very elementary. It should be taught in schools. But I would not use the word 'karma', which carries with it so much cultural and religious stuff from a culture that is not common to the USA. I would call it cause and effect or something like that. The thing about karma is that in my experience it doesn't always come back right away, or even through the same channel it was created in. It feels like there is a consciousness behind the action-reaction that deals out effects in such a way to maximize the lesson of the cause-effect
situation at hand. -Sandy

Now what? Literal or figurative? Well, you've got your mundane, figurative use (the gardening example) but you've got your hindu hocus pocus stuff too (the bit about your actions coming back at you, somehow, even if 'it doesn't always come back right away, or even through the same channel'). Am I wrong? Aren't they both there? So which does he mean?

I don't know about you, but I see a real shell game here. Perhaps Sandy doesn't even see it himself although I tend to think he does and that's why he gets so prickly when I try to talk with him about it. I mean, one clean way to go would be for him to say that he does indeed believe the Hindu concept and then we could discuss that. He's the one who raised it, he should be willing to discuss it.

Or, alternatively, he could say he only meant it figuratively and then we'd at least be on the same page.

Instead he just calls me names and tells me to fuck off. And that, to me, goes right back to Jerry's question about Sandy's sincerity. So what we've got is a new age pontificator who's so touchy that no one can clear anything up with him. He's really not amenable to discourse when it gets right down to it. Just another flavour of Turner, as far as I can see.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:33:43 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, let's
Message:
Jim,

If you really want answers from me, I adivse you to ask someone to represent you and ask me the questions you have. I will be happy to answer any questions. I don't like your attitude and do not wish to engage directly with you in your form of snob communication.

I made more personal progress about what I came here for when you were not around. You have hindered the very cause you say you are here to uphold. Hear this feedback. You are hurting your own cause, and not just with me, but from the feedback, it seems that I'm not the only person you have issues with that require your own personal growth to overcome.

So I will deal with the information, the questions and answers, but I will not deal with you, because you are abusive to the point that I have to tell you to fuck off, which is not my basic style, more like yours, if memory serves me well.

So talk straight or find a reperesentative, because mano a mano, you suck as one who wishes to communicate in mutual respect.
So trawl by the front door, there ought to be some fresh blood coming through soon who don't know your shtick yet.

Is that sincere enough for you?

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:14:40 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I volunteer to represent Jim
Message:
It's true Jim has told people to fuck off a lot, but in this current debate he is not doing that. I've just read his post to Gregg, and it is a model of clarity.

So, if you're willing to respond to me, do you believe in the religious interpretation of karma, or were you just using the word in its new-age fuzzy sense?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:25:52 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: I volunteer to represent Jim
Message:
So, if you're willing to respond to me, do you believe in the religious interpretation of karma, or were you just using the word in its new-age fuzzy sense? -John.

You leave me only two choices?

I don't think that there's a big book and you get it all at the end and get your next life based on the predominant actions of this one.

I don't think that God punishes or rewards. What we call that I think are the fruits of our own actions. If we can all look at the computer on the desk before us and know what 'garbage in, garbage out' means from direct and sometimes painful experience, I don't see why there is so much confusion around karma.

I do think that karma is scientific, and a basic law of nature like gravity. Cause and effect. The fact that the term has been associated with religion, there is an automatic 'yuk' on it in today's anti-organized relgion culture. I know people who swear that yoga is a religion because that is the level of their exposure to and understanding of it. But does that make yoga a religion? No.

It is said that to act with detachment, as Patrick described somewhere else, is a way that one may avoid the consequences of their actions, or their karma. I also see this as something called being in a state of grace, unmerited favor from deity...(our own higher selves...?), a result of not creating a thought or any other tie to the action, which would create ripples.

I am not meaning to dance around the question. Have I answered you to your satisfaction? I mean, books have been written on this, and we could talk about this more if you choose.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:13:27 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Your fatal flaw
Message:
It is said that to act with detachment, as Patrick described somewhere else, is a way that one may avoid the consequences of their actions, or their karma.

So you do believe in the Hindu hocus pocus version of karma! You believe in this myth of acting with detachment. I was with you so long as you implied for every action there is a reaction. That's kind of obvious. I'm likely to get a different reaction from somebody if I smile at and compliment them than if I spit at and tell them to eat shit. Now, according to your philosophy if I tell them to do that with detachment, they're going to have a different reaction than if I tell them to eat shit in a spirit of attachment. I'm getting a little farfetched here, I know, but this acting with detachment is pretty hypothetical, don't you think? Better still, why don't you give me an example of what you consider acting with detachment where you don't incur karma where otherwise you would.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:22:09 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My fable flow
Message:
Jerry,

The grace - freedom from the consequences of one's own actions - I refer to is not exclusively Hindu. Confession was meant to be karma-dip too. Yom Kippur too. And don't forget those ancient piercings and all. But the meaning got screwed up.

Not by faith and grace alone, but 'by the fruits of your labors you are absolved of all past error. Now go forth and let your light shine.'

The forgiveness and confession thing was remembered and abused to hell, but they forgot the 'repentance' clause, repent, to change one's ways. So folks line up every week and confess the same shit week after week and think they are covered and so does the church, with sometimes no effort to change. This is an obvious abuse of the sacred.

Are we clearer now?

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:40:10 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: My fable flow
Message:
Sandy,

Is it safe to asssume then, that you don't believe in the concept of acting without attachment? That's what I'm curious about, you know? Do you believe that there is this 'spirit of detachment' which frees you from karma? I don't believe you addressed this in your last post.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:07:32 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My fable flow
Message:
Sandy,

1) Is it safe to asssume then, that you don't believe in the concept of acting without attachment? That's what I'm curious about, you know?

2)Do you believe that there is this 'spirit of detachment' which frees you from karma? I don't believe you addressed this in
your last post. -Jerry

Jerry,

In answer to your questions:

1) I do believe in acting without attachment. That is the goal.
To be totally detached, to be in the world but not of it. I have experienced it and it feels totally weightless in all ways, like being the observer looking through these eyes and the inhabitor of this body, but not having to bear or feel the weight or carry any of it, which was moving just fine but by a higher finer motor system than I would consider everyday normal as we know it, which I cannot explain, identify or locate in the brain. This experience was not externally induced in all cases. I have had it more than a few times straight as an arrow. I had it before I met Maharaji.

What I do not like is how the reality of detachment, like so many other realities, are being taken and twisted to conform to whatever the user wants to ascribe to it. For me, detachment does not mean that one can do whatever ones wants to do and not be responsible for the actions and the consequences of something the person knows is morally compromising. That would be playing with the meaning of detachment and immaturely trying to hide behind it to do something one knows is doomed to create unpleasant consequences. I believe in moral integrity, which is a fail safe mechanism that filters out and voids many actions one may have an impulse to do, but does not because the person has learned that such an action will create negative energy and negative circumstances and ripples out. It is the ignorance and denial of the importance of moral integrity that I take issue with, which opens the floodgates to all sorts of inappropriate behavior, and the doers of same hide behind the detachment thing. To me, it is the same as confessing the same sin every day for 20 years and doing it again the next day, with no effort or desire whatsoever to repent, which is an integral part of the process.
the masses have been lulled into a sleep that is deep and thick, and the dream of that sleep is that it's OK to do whatever you want if you do your alms too, whatever they are, pray, pay or meditate. Does that answer your question? -Sandy

2) I believe that if someone commits an act that may have generated something negative, but did so unintentionally and innocent of the fact that it was in fact going to make shit fly, then yes, I beleive that there is a way one can be detached and held blameless in that situation. Also, if someone is in another person's energy field and got mixed up in some bad action by just being near it, I believe that one can be detached from it. If a soldier believes in his soul that he is killing to defend his family and his country, I do not believe that he is creating karma or guilty of murder.

But do I believe that someone can knowingly commit an act that they already know is not a righteous act, and then claim (hide behind) detachment and be held unaccountable? I think not.

I believe that it all hinges in part, on consciousness, what you knew and when you knew it, that determines the possibility of detachment.

This is not the sum total of everything I have to say about this.
It is late. I might have used a wrong word or phrase, might have picked a more appropriate one if I was sharper right now. But like the sun, we too fade and go down for the night. So take carea and take it easy. We're all just people here.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 22:13:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: My fable flow
Message:
Sandy,

If by freeing yourself from karma by detachment, you mean not letting things bother you, well then, maybe there's something to it. I know, myself, I have my good days and bad. Some days I'm just walking on a cloud, and others every little fucking thing is a major pain in my ass. Is that what you're talking about as far as being detached goes?

But what about things that you like. I know you like the Moody Blues. I do too. Would being detached from the Moodies mean to listen to their music and remain unmoved by it? Is that something even desirable? I dread the day I'm no longer turned on by the Moodies.

It seems to me that when you talk about being detached, what you're really saying is that you don't want the assholes of the world to get under your skin, that you just want them to be so much water on a duck's back that just rolls right off of you while you happily float along.

But that's not what the concept of detachment in eastern philosophy is about. In that philosophy, you can murder and not suffer any consequences, if you're detached from your actions. That to me is bullshit. Apparently, it is to you too. And you should have just said so, and probably would have, if you didn't jerk around the meaning of what acting with detachment really means.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 02:30:22 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: My fable flow
Message:
'If by freeing yourself from karma by detachment, you mean not letting things bother you, well then, maybe there's something to it. I know, myself, I have my good days and bad. Some days I'm just walking on a cloud, and others every little fucking thing is a major pain in my ass. Is that what you're talking about as far as being detached goes?' -Jerry

For me, that's part of how I see detachment. Playing poker with a 'poker face', while you are doing flips inside over your royal flush, eyes cold, heart on fire...I see that as a form of detachment. - Sandy

'But what about things that you like. I know you like the Moody Blues. I do too. Would being detached from the Moodies mean to listen to their music and remain unmoved by it? Is that something even desirable? I dread the day I'm no longer turned on by the Moodies.' - Jerry

No, I don't see that as detachment, either. -Sandy

'It seems to me that when you talk about being detached, what you're really saying is that you don't want the assholes of the world to get under your skin, that you just want them to be so much water on a duck's back that just rolls right off of you while you happily float along.' -Jerry

I think that is part and parcel of being detached, of being 'in this world but not of it', which is the New Testament way of describing the same phenomenon known in the east as detachment,
or being like the lotus that lives in the water etc etc etc
(I say etc etc etc so that no one will attack me for 'giving satsang' here.) -Sandy

'But that's not what the concept of detachment in eastern philosophy is about. In that philosophy, you can murder and not suffer any consequences, if you're detached from your actions. That to me is bullshit. Apparently, it is to you too. And you should have just said so, and probably would have, if you didn't jerk around the meaning of what acting with detachment really means.' -Jerry

I have read stuff about how if someone practices a certain meditation, they can literally fuck their master's wife and incur no karma, as well as commit murder, etc. I have a problem with that. As for killing, I think that if one kills to defend loved ones or one's own life or country, then that can be accomplished in a state of deatchment.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:28:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Good question
Message:
Are we clearer now?

No

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:37:19 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: I think you answered the question.
Message:
You use the word karma in a fuzzy new-age interpretation.

However I must pull you up on one point.

You said:-

I do think that karma is scientific.

Do you? OK - give me a reference to an experiment that demonstrates that the theory of karma is correct.

You do know the meaning of the word scientific don't you?

John representing Jim.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:16:24 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: to answer the question ...
Message:
No, the idea of karma is not one used in science. Nor is it a scientific idea, for it cannot be disproved (incidently, no scientific experiment proves a theory is correct; rather they show that a theory cannot be correct.) The idea of karma is a philosophical notion that attempts to answer the problem of evil.

If evil meets with retribution or correction, and virtue with reward, their existence seems less problematic to many people's minds. A world where the wicked wax fat and happy and good-hearted folks get fucked over does not seem a moral place.

So those people who believe in morality (as being something real rather than illusory) have a problem. The problem can be fixed by a belief in an afterlife where the injustices of this world are fixed. I say fixed somewhat tongue in cheek because the idea of a soul that survives the death of the body and goes to Heaven or is reincarnated does rather create a whole bunch of even more difficult problems. Not the way to go, I'd suggest!

It seems to me, if minds and consciousness are emergent properties of matter (that is, are natural parts of the world rather than supernatural insertions by a deity) then so are good and evil, either as evolutionarily adaptive illusions, or as perceptions of something that exists outside our minds.

My personal inclination is to (want to) believe that the universe is indeed a moral place. It is in this context that I find what I called the high-church (zen) notion of karma of interest. It suggests that the actions of self-conscious agents with free-will have a moral component. And that this moral component is also something natural, that it follows natural laws.

This is not to qualify my opening remarks in any way, but the notion of consciousness was considered unscientific when I was a boy. Now that our understanding and instruments have advanced to the point where some ideas about consciousness can be tested by observation and experiment, it has become a respectable field of scientific study.

JohnT
- never going to be a boy again

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:30:56 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: 'Garbage in, garbage out'...Computer Science 101
Message:
(nt)
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:17:15 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I see what you mean...
Message:
Anybody who says this

'If God has sent Maharaji to this time and space to tell us that it's OK to live as he lives, as long as we practice Knowledge, we won't incur any karma, then I have been all wrong about God all my adult life. But that doesn't click, y'know?'

has got me way too confused to even know where to start with the rational discourse. I've read that thought four or five times and still don't know what he means.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:40:02 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: All you had to do was ask me...
Message:
Anybody who says this

'If God has sent Maharaji to this time and space to tell us that it's OK to live as he lives, as long as we practice Knowledge, we won't incur any karma, then I have been all wrong about God all my adult life. But that doesn't click, y'know?'

has got me way too confused to even know where to start with the rational discourse. I've read that thought four or five times and still don't know what he means. -Gregg

So Gregg, why didn't you just ask me? OK, let's skip that question and go to the answer to your question about what I meant:

If Maharaji is a messenger from a higher consciousness/God who has come to show us that we can do whatever the hell we want to in our earthly lives, and as long as we practice Knowledge we will not incur any negative consequences for our actions, then I have been all wrong about God/higher consciousness all my life.

Is that clearer? If not, I'll try again. We aim to please.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:30:14 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: All you had to do was ask me...
Message:
OK, Sandy. I guess I just got hung up on the concept of God sending Maharaj Ji...knowing what I do now about God, and about Maharaj Ji...it just doesn't make any sense.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:44:19 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Karma
Message:
Karma comes from the same sanskrit root as kriya namely kr meaning ''do.'' Pandits have spent thousands of years arguing over what it means. It's mostly impenetrable nonsense -like college kids talking on speed.

There is one definition which comes from karma yoga: kshatriyas were supposed to act without attachment or expectation of result. This was further taken to mean that, if one were not ATTACHED (mentally or emotionally) to one's actions, then one did not reap any psychic consequences from them.

This latter definition is what was used to justify Rev Rawat's ability to marry etc without getting bogged down in the world while the peons had to be celibate. If taken to extremes it leads to thinking that, if one remaind detached, one can do anything. There is no good or evil. The Rev has demonstrated this interpretation very well.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:46:55 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Karma
Message:
Hi Patrick,

I agree with what you said. It reminded me of the term 'poverty'
which does not mean being poor or anything of the like. A vow of poverty is a vow of stewardship, that one will take care of the physical plane and everything in it as if it belonged to a landlord, just like renting a furnished house. And one under a vow of poverty means that the person has signed on as a member of the Creator's household, to take care of it and treat it right. Lots of folks under vows of poverty live in palatial mansions, usually fixer uppers they did themselves. So this is yet another word that has taken on different meanings in different cultures and times. (I am not referrring to any organized religions.)

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:19:57 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Poverty
Message:
Sandy,

I agree poverty does have relative meanings according to culture, but if you can't afford to buy food or provide heating in a cold climate, then I think we would all agree you are experiencing poverty.

Deliberately putting yourself in such a position is a weird thing to do.

What do you think?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:40:06 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Poverty
Message:
JHB responded:
Sandy,

I agree poverty does have relative meanings according to culture, but if you can't afford to buy food or provide heating in a cold climate, then I think we would all agree you are experiencing poverty.

Deliberately putting yourself in such a position is a weird thing to do.

What do you think?

John.

Words words words.

'Cause I'm bad, I'm bad you know it!' (ka-chunk!)
Another MJ said it. But did he really mean he was bad according to Webster? And when enough media icons or groups with enough social voice in any age use or misuse a word long enough, then the word's meaning mutates.

'Far out' had nothing to do with distance as Webster defined it either.

'This sucks'. I can only think of a few things which actually do suck, according to Webster.

And all the oxymorons you can shake a stick at...

Was the woman suffering from want? Yes. In today's use of the word poverty, was she experiencing it? Absolutely. I don't like to become too astrally conservative (literal) about words. Like jazz, sometimes things just hang awhile, come out slow or fast or in between, are mellow or sad or happy or whatever. All music is not military marching compositions, as Jim would have it be, unless he felt like jamming, then it would be OK for the rest of us. So let us jam and jazz on, and allow improv so that the spirit of what is being said can be released from the bondage of words and the sweet essence of our thoughts and ideas waft up into the cyber olfactory lobes of each other, and make some soul music and talk in peace about even the biggest disagreement we may have.

Sandy

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:46:33 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Poverty
Message:
Sandy,

Are you stoned?

If so, then I'm sure you agree there's no point in trying to converse, because I'm not.

It's like walking into a pub when your friends have been drinking all evening when you're stone cold sober. You have two choice - either get drunk quickly, or go home.

So is conversation worthwhile?

John.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:41:14 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Inspriation inebriation
Message:
I just read over my post that you asked me if I was stoned while writing. No, I was not. But I was inspired and did feel uplifted and waxed poetic. Why is it that whenever someone gets creative or poetic or seems too happy that they are automatically suspected as being fucked up on something? Because we live in a death related culture and if you look too happy, you are not with the program, unless you are a celebrity, which thens gives reason for the joy...all the money of course...then you are flagged. Hate to sound cynical, but that's how it is dontcha think?

Unless of course you are at a program, then you can look as happy as you want, if that's what's going on in the status quo. Even premies who seem too happy get bongofied too.
Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:30:22 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Inspriation inebriation
Message:
Why is it that whenever someone gets creative or poetic or seems too happy that they are automatically suspected as being fucked up on something? Because we live in a death related culture and if you look too happy, you are not with the program, unless you are a celebrity, which thens gives reason for the joy...all the money of course...then you are flagged.

No, Sandy. John had it right. Your 'creative', 'poetic' post was just you tripping out leaving the rest of us back here on earth. Like John said, it's like walking into a bar finding everybody drunk while you're cold sober. It's not as if you're on the same level where genuine communication is possible, which is what real creative and poetic individuals do, splendidly. They communicate. They don't trip out on you, which you have a penchant for tirelessly achieving.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:15:51 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Oh God, I'm not Dylan Thomas! Or Bob either!
Message:
I was not trying to be unrelateable.
I was writing in a detached sort of way.
What part of the post didn't you get?
My aphasaic part feels somebody just picking for a fight and using this thing to be the spark, and throw in the part about me not really being a good communicator just to salt the wound.

Sorry, guy. You tell me what you did not understand, and I will restate it in a way you can. If that is the only real issue, case closed. If somebody has a hidden agenda, then this is only round one. Which one is it?

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 13:24:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: God, Sandy, I had no idea -- I'm so sorry
Message:
I was not trying to be unrelateable.
I was writing in a detached sort of way.
What part of the post didn't you get?
My aphasaic part feels somebody just picking for a fight and using this thing to be the spark, and throw in the part about me not really being a good communicator just to salt the wound.

Twice yesterday Sandy spruced up his otherwise clear and cogent posts with this word, 'aphasaic'. I'd heard it before but, not being a regular reader of Shaman's Drum, or even The Utne Reader I was at a bit of a loss to know just what Sandy meant. And the idea of missing even a bit of Sandy's meaning is as unappealing as missing a bit of Hamlet or a bit of a masterful symphony. I just had to look it up.

Oxford says --

'aphasia: the loss of ability to understand or express speech, owing to brain damage.'

I say we start taking up a collection.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:19:10 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Psst...
Message:
The President's Speech
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:28:27 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Thanks for the reference post JohnT,love ya babe!
Message:
Let's do lunch.
I would if we could.
Where are you?
I'm in NJ.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 20:36:34 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: Thanks Sandy, but I'll have to take a raincheck...
Message:
... I'm afraid that if we meet up before you've finished your

AWAKENING

that we might end up arguing about Rawat. Can you accept my accusations against him? He is a low life shit, and I don't think you've quite got that into focus yet.

And, you know, of all the people here, I must be one of the least able to really understand what you are going through.

Plus, I have never met anyone who posts here - as far as I know, I am a stranger to every single person here. I am completely in earnest about destroying Rawat's business and calling him to account for his abuses. Nothing personal, you understand, but one is more likely to be loyal to individuals one has met personally. It would be smart for me to meet up with ex-premies folks first.

I do hope you understand my position here.

Maybe later, OK? I do hope so.

JohnT
- never a premie, and never been to New York neither

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 02:43:30 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: Raincheck it is
Message:
John,

I just read through your awakening and j'accuse areas (quickly, but it then it reads rather quickly). Thank you for going to all that trouble to document the history, some of which I lived through and personally witnessed and participated in. You have reinforced my faith in my own memory banks and brain functions.

We will talk again.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 05:29:08 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: The power of poetry
Message:
is that it can be used both in a literal way (what Sacks would call expressive prose) and in an evocative way, where meaning is also conveyed by word sound, rhythm, metre and rime. In that way, it can bring both types of brain function into play at the same time. I do hope you make time to read and reread those two poems.

Incidently, are you left-handed?

Thanks for the raincheck. I'd better start saving!

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 06:43:01 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: John - S left-handed
Message:
You are observant. Some people of his age were born thus and in the US were then forced to be right handed. It created stutterering and other problems with communication.
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 14:47:23 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: If being able to read people is brain damage,
Message:
...then I want a taste of that kind of brain damage!

As if your brain is without a ding, how pointlessly stupid and continually condescending you contuinue to be.

There was a discussion about aphasaiacs being in a state of being able to 'see' where somebody was really coming from, totally independent of the words being spoken. If this is brain damage, I want some. You are more seriously brain damaged by virtue of your compulsive need to be so literal. The letter kills and the spirit gives life. You kill conversations, dialogs, and try to kill the spirit of others, then to revive them with your toxic ego-laden lifeblood and create your own version of what a person should be, or an ex-premie should be or think or talk like.

I have known other people like you in my life. And as optimistic as I have been, they never changed. I am learning to let go of dead weight and not try to hang onto relationships that are continually abusive or destructive in any way, in the hope they will improve by some miracle.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 21:32:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: You think you can read people?
Message:
Sandy,

You think by telling you that you're tripping out I was trying to hurt you. Wrong. I was just telling you where it's at. If that hurts, I'm sorry. That's not my intent. And besides, you're not aphaisic. So don't try to be. These people are suffering from their disability. It's not a fucking gift they have for reading people. I doubt there's a one of them that considers their disability a gift. Not one. But you act as if they're all blessed. Sorry, Sandy, but that's pretty fucking stupid, if you ask me.

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 03:01:40 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You think you can read people?
Message:
Aphaisia is considered a disease in a culture that honors deceit for profit. I think that the glorification of deceit for profit is a worse disease than aphaisia. I was not meaning to glorify the downside of aphaisia, but rather was admiring and wishing to have that attribute of really 'seeing' and 'hearing' the unspoken intent, while still being able to articulate as well.

Sandy

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 03:37:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: What's the use, Jerry?
Message:
Jerry,

Please see my post a few threads up (The 'magic' of words and cross-examination). This guy shouldn't even be here. Not that I'm suggesting kicking him off (although there are moments ...). It's just like you said in your 'Is Sandy Sincere?' thread, he isn't. So where could any dialogue with him possibly go?

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 05:21:26 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your private country club, Jim?
Message:
Please see my post a few threads up (The 'magic' of words and cross-examination). This guy (referring to me) shouldn't even be here. Not that I'm suggesting kicking him off (although there are moments ...). It's just like you said in your 'Is Sandy Sincere?' thread, he isn't. So where could any dialogue with him possibly go?
-Jim

A dialog with me can go wherever the participating parties can steer it cooperatively, taking all of our personalities and ways of communicating into consideration, just like with anybody else.
Why do you feel so threatened by me, Jim? Is it because I recognize so many of your little trips that you use to control other people and control every conversation you are part of?
The 'are you kidding?' shtick, the 'everyone here thinks' shtick, and all the other little innoquous remarks that are like little word jets that maneuver the dialog where you want it to go...I notice that stuff and so do others here, exes too. By the way, how many exes do you think should be out of here too, because of the way they communicate? None, right? It's all about something else, so why not be honest about it?

'Is Sandy sincere?' is a question. You make it sound like a statement, with no as the answer. You assume too much. I know better than to try to convince you. You are going through your changes and I am going through mine. We both have things to learn in our own development. I don't want to judge you and I don't wish to be judged either. You make it sound like I want to break down all definitions and just blab. That is not true.
We just don't think the same way, to make it an understatement.
That does not mean one is right or the other is wrong in how we go about coming to our own conclusions about things.

I feel alot different about Maharaji now than I did when I first got here. I can say that from a solid place in me, and that is something. If it's not enough for you, tough. I'm not here to please you.

Your feelings about Maharaji may be sincere, but you have been very insincere, cynical, intellectually nasty and sarcastic to anyone who you interact with who does not share your viewpoint, premie and ex-premie alike. Why don't you keep your own doorstep clean and don't worry about mine so much?

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:09:12 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Sandy
Subject: My problem with this is...
Message:
... I can't see how communication in this medium is possible with your attitude. All you have to do is say you're using the other side of your brain or something like that and anything does (good name for a forum - but I rarely read anything there).

When I'm having a laugh with my friends, I'm sure a transcript of the conversation would not be of any interest to anyone here. I come here for something else, for communication regarding Maharaji, the cult, the 'knowledge', and related stuff.

It's just occured to me that I'm now doubting your sincerity, just like someone else here did (sorry can't remember who started that thread). Are you here to try to work through your confusion, or for the social chit-chat? If it's a mixture of both, could you do me a favour and indicate in the subject field whether the post is a serious one, or is chit-chat?

John.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:55:32 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: My main purpose here
Message:
JHB,

Perhaps the fact that I am alternately serious and light without any notification is why you think I am insincere.

This is one of the drawbacks and limitations of this form of
communication. I am paying a very high price for even being here, which I do not wish to go into here and now.

My main purpose is to gather information and brain-heart-emotion imprints from other human beings who have also been involved with Maharaji to hopefully find clarity and understanding about the big picture in which premies and ex-premies both exist and revolve their communication around the cental figure, Maharaji.

The premies say positive things that can be documented and the ex-premies say negative things that can also be documented. Then
there's Maharaji who has said things and now has revised them or denies having said them in the context they are now being presented. I am very sincere about coming to the unifying oneness that underlies the obvious paradox.

Sandy

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:34:16 (GMT)
From: Sandy
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: All clear
Message:
Clean as a whistle.
What makes you think I was stoned?
And why do you give a negative spin to it if I was?
And why do they call God the Most High?

May I suggest:

Green Gold The Tree of Life: Marijuana in Magic and Religion
by Chris Bennett

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 15:47:29 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: EV-DLM Papers Download site just updated
Message:
Download the EV-DLM Papers Website

Download the 6 archives (7,9 Mb of compressed files), and have the whole website's content on your own PC (or Mac).

No copyrights.

Each one of these 6 compressed archives is small enough to save to a regular disk to give to interested people who don't have Internet access.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:58:43 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My monitor is about to Sh*t the bed so...(OT)
Message:
I wanted ta let ya know that I may be off the board for a few days 'cuz I cain't trust this 'in, while I get myself up ta the big city to buy me a new one, probably bigger, too.

No responses necessary, I may not be able ta see 'em.

I hope I don't miss too much, the threads look interesting'...

Goodnight,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:47:46 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A question about what sort of people become premie
Message:
s.

Turner's posts have really bugged me. I couldn't put my finger on it until now. But I have always felt, that people who became, or are premies, were and are generally 'good' people. People who fell into something because they were idealistic and seeking a deeper meaning in life. When I was a premie, most of the people I knew, most, were really special in one way or another. Generally good people. I have to say, as the cult got crazier and crazier in the late seventies and early eighties, that sometimes those 'nice' qualities were being driven out in the thrust toward becoming sort of one with the Lord.

Turner, I can't really tell that much about you from your posts, but what they make me remember is this, you could be a nice person, but you are triggering some memories....

There was a whole other sort of subgroup of cult members. People who really were not that nice. Obviosly, Jagdeo was one. David Smith comes to mind. I wonder if the cult also attracted sociopaths. Perhaps the sociopaths saw the opportunity to sort of rise and exploit the sincerity of the the rest of us? Like the cult was a place they could hide. They say one of the hallmarks of a sociopath is an inablility to empathize, or really feel or love another person in a way that is not just to exploit that other person. And didn't the cult provide a place where people could do that, and be that way, and have it be acceptable. The fact that they only cared about M and nothing and no one else, made them better premies. But really, all they cared about was themselves? And the cult was a place they could hide the personality defect they had, and people would think they were super premies, not sociopaths.

Just musing, maybe someone wiser than myself could put this into words better.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:12:21 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Snap Susan , I' ve been thinking about ...
Message:

....this myself over the last couple of days ,sparked off by something said in a lower thread .

I think that every sort of person became a premie , the only common denominator being the desire for something better in life.

Which is part of the human condition.

The conjunction of Rawat's arrival with the fag end of the hippie / freeak / radical scene is a sociological phenomenon I'd prefer not to tangle with .

Having said that however , he didn't just pitch up.

He was invited , & the people who invited him (maybe not all now) are still in the land of the living.

Some are no doubt still true believers.

Some aren't but don't give a shit.

Some have probably gone crazy by now & are incapable.

I think I've had a pretty good trawl through this website , causing severe damage to my phone bill in the process , but have never read an explanation from any of these fuckers as to what they thought they were at back in 1970 or whenever.

I think Anths take on it below is correct.

Shit rises to the top.

He'd never use such a cliche though , clever sod.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:17:58 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: deelores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Bin Liner
Subject: Ah Bin Liner..
Message:
Would you email me please? I've lost your address. This is where I can be reached in Ireland.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Jan 27, 2001 at 01:07:32 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Tried to e mail you didn't work I'll give
Message:

keep trying.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:54:37 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Life in the World Wide Web.
Message:
Hi Susan,

If premies were spiders:

There is a spider-web, with the Fatguruantula sitting in the middle, waiting to be fed- fucking and eating the occasional partner- getting larger and nastier. Near the centre of the web other spiders make a living from the Aracnalord. They love him and serve him best of all. They have been serving their master for a long time, and they have been worshipping him for longer. These are the chosen ones, the SAFs (Spiders Around Fatguruantuala). There are none more dedicated than those being fed by donations to their lord.

Then, on the next level out, are more spiders, aching to be on the inner web, longing to be with their Spidermaster in the centre of his web. They work for free. They befriend spiders from the inner web, to make connections that move them further inside.

They long for titles and position. They will be seen with important visitors at the local aracno-satellite-scam.

Then there's the free-roaming worker spiders. Bringing a portion of their dead flies to the web, for the Aracomaster and his work. They have faith, don't live in the web, feed their families and have fun. They all meet up when they go to see the Fatspider give his annual arachno-belch, from a specially constructed web.

Aaaaagh,,,I'm stuck in the glue of my own words. Help. I've lost my ideas. I'm trapped in the web.

DOING DOING DOING.

Oh no. The big fat spider's seen me. The unpaid volunteers are rushing to spit poison on me.

The Fat Spider wants to eat me, because I've pissed him off.

DOING BOING GLOING

Thank god I remembered by aracnolasergun and invisible spidershitshield.

Zap, Zonk, Cronk,

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnnth (never shoot the web you're sticking on) CLUNK! Bye Susan, (cough) Sad music.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:10:57 (GMT)
From: The Fat Fag
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, if you change Fatguruantula to Ratguruantula
Message:
I could agree with you. Not all of us fat folk are greedy - we just enjoy fine wine and good food.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:07:38 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: The Fat Fag
Subject: I'm not a fatist fat fag
Message:
I'm a fat bastard myself.

I love puns.

Anth the puny-loony

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:29:13 (GMT)
From: The Fat Fag
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, you may not be a fatist
Message:
or a fattist and I know you are a fat old bear but I also know you Librans and you only like beautiful svelte visions in lace and black leather.
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 10:45:35 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: The Fat Fag
Subject: On my back, limbs in the air.
Message:
Tickle me fat fag, tickle me.

Anth, it was the black lace that did it.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:10:50 (GMT)
From: The Fat Fag
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth, I just knew you were a ticklee
Message:
And have I got something to tickle your fancy.

Put your head (I mean legs) on my shoulders
Hold me in your arms, Babeeee..............

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:07:40 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: About webs
Message:
The thing about spider webs is that they are very sticky. When you are in one, it entraps you more and more, even as you struggle and try to escape. Kinds like the tar-baby idea.

I mean, how did I stay for years after reading the Mishler article?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:57:33 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: AJW
Subject: Life in Amsterdam with Anth --OT
Message:
Did you talk to J-M yet?

I knew the title would get your immediate attention!

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:09:53 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Especially as I live in Utrecht.
Message:
Bloody Americans. Think Amsterdam is a bloody country somewhere near Yurp.

Anth atlast

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 16:23:54 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: types of premies
Message:
Susan,

I shared your first vague impressions about Turner. Cold. And it is little wonder. He outright claims that everything merely human must be totally destroyed in favor of the Higher Truth.

And I see that now that Michael is forcefully pointing out Turner's cultishness, he is showing his true colors: obscenities, insults, and hateful sarcasm. That sort of expressing is obviously far from a truly enlightened and ego-free perspective. He also seems totally unwilling or incapable of recognizing his own shortcomings.

That does bring up the question about different types of premies. I see just below that some have discussed the different types of current PWK's. But I have noticed a different sort of 'types' back in the first days of DLM. Some premies were like me - LSD users looking for Eastern Mysticism, whereas other premies were attracted to the more social, 'save the world' campaign of the early days.

I personally could never relate to propogation at all. I thought there were already too many premies and most people in the world weren't interested in the Highest Knowledge anyway. I always wanted Guru Maharaji to gather an intimate group of close devotees, and I was very interested in the plans for a 'permanent festival site,' where the world could be forgotten. But there were other people who thought the whole point was to turn the world on to Knowledge, and these premies were very into the DUO type service for the planet's good.

So there were hermit premies like me, and social premies like I would think Joe was, for example.

Turner obviously is the more mystical, hermit type. He has tried to point out, below, that his thinking was not the common cult-think of DLM. And he thinks of himself as being original. But he is wrong - his world view is classical mysticism and one that many premies held, myself included. It's true that most premies were not as classically mystical as Turner and myself, but I do remember a few. If held onto too long, hermit ideals make people unhappy. Self realization is a natural part of living and I don't think it requires any destruction at all.

Then there was this other type of premie, the busy-body. I only lived in two communities. But in both places, I was bothered by a busy-body who minded my business. Both guys. Exactly the same sort of personality. To illustrate: after satsang one night, I took my bycicle and went to the park and hung out with some Krishna devotees, just for fun. My busy-body followed me in the car, spying on my activities, and when I got home he started to chant the Hari Krishna chant, to tease me. I told him if he ever followed me again, I would never speak to him again. Last I knew he was still a premie, and studying to be a counselor. So I guess he is still telling other people how to live their lives.

And of course there were the gopis. They swooned a lot and gave ecstatic satsang, and collected very large personal photo collection of Maharaji. Interestingly, this type was pretty much equally divided between men and women.

There were also several mental cases, of varying degree. There was one premie in our community with whom it was impossible to hold a conversation. He would go off on tangents every other sentence and rarely made much sense. But when he gave satsang, and you could consentrate better, his thought processes were more easily followed and he was actually fascinating.

Many other subtypes as well. But sadly, now that Rawat has turned out to be such an unsavory character, there is really only one type of premie, stubborn idealists with their heads in the sand.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:02:42 (GMT)
From: cv
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: types of premies
Message:
This is my first message to this forum. I 'received knowledge' in 1973, when I was about 16 years old. I think about it a lot, and just last night it occurred to me to do an internet search, and I'm so happy to have found the ex-premie site!
I grew up in the suburbs of Washington DC in an environment that was devoid of any sort of spiritual information, and I immediately believed everything about Guru Maharaj Ji being GOD, bringing world peace, etc.
One thing that has not been mentioned in the messages I've read about that time was that many of us grew up in constant terror of nuclear holocaust. There was a great sense of imminent apocalypse, and as an anxiety-prone individual, I was looking for some sort of reassurance that things would be OK.
Guru Maharaj Ji offered this reassurance, but in the frightening, demanding way that I've come to regard as typical of oganized religions. My most vivid memory of receiving knowledge was that there was a mentally handicapped man in the knowledge session who couldn't understand the techniques, and the mahatma was very mean to him. Even though I wanted to believe all of Maharaj Ji's promises, I couldn't. I've never been able to completely believe in any religion, and have come to think that there are some people who CAN believe in things, and that there is a fundamental personality difference in people who believe, related to their wanting to stop thinking about things, because it's more comfortable in some way than the alternative, which is always being skeptical and having to think about everything too much.

I went to a college where there were no other Premies. I was warned that this was a mistake, that i would fall away from the 'true path,' and I did. I also tried other religions and found that they all have in common the recruitment of people who want the comfort of knowing they are right and the desire to bring more people in the fold. Where I live now, it's true of people who are members of the Democratic Party!
What I find most amazing, now that I have a son who is the same age as I was when I became a Premie, is how ignorant and isolated I was as an adolescent, and how neither my parents nor the adult Premies at that time seemed to have a sense of responsibility or confidence about teaching children about religion outside of organized institutions.
One particular detail that I often think of is how I gave EVERYTHING I could get my hands on--my money and my possessions--to the local Divine Light Mission, and the people there took it all without question or even a Thank you! I even gave a record album made by my junior high school band! My children were both in band, and I wish I had that record. And now that I'm a parent, I find it hard to understand that there wasn't some adult at DLM who didn't look at these kids' stuff and say 'hey, you don't need to give us that, it's special to you.' They probably just threw it away anyway! I suppose it was that sense that there wasn't going to be a future. That feeling of imminent apocalypse always provides fertile soil for messianic cults.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 20:11:32 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: cv
Subject: Welcome, cv, look forward to more from you NT
Message:
f
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 17:27:47 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: cv
Subject: Welcome, cv!
Message:
Hi cv! Welcome to the wonderful, wacky world of ex-premies! I got knowledge in 1972 and was 16 too, so I can relate to what you have said. I hope you've taken the time to read some of the Journeys which people have posted. Mine is in there too if you want to read it. The journeys can help you to see what's become of the cult in the years since you left and how people got in and then out.

Be sure to read the posts by Michael Dettmers, and AJW's journey.

Just wanted to say hello and wish you well here. You can email me if you like.

Take care, and have fun on the site.
Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:20:59 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Current assessment= 1/3,1/3,1/3,...
Message:
susan-

the other day someone summed up the makeup of their local community to me with this simple formula:

1/3 pwk = loser or total loser, with no place to go, and nothing better to do.

1/3 pwk = fairly disgruntled oldtimers who try and keep the flame alive, but are losing patience with the cult, and are beginning to see through lots of the funny stuff. They hang on either in the hope of something happening, or out of misguided loyalty.They go to a video, drop a few bucks in the donation box, go to a program once a year, but generally don't tell too many people about m or k.Probably don't meditate too much either. Kind of like old hippies hoping for Haight-Ashbury to come back again, or 1950's greasers who keep living in the 50's.

1/3=inspired 'church ladies'. These are either newcomers or oldtimers who have been recently re-energized and inspired by secret little meetings with PAMS or the big one himself.
They have a certain smugness about their involvement and their new found power in the attempt to revitalize the dying cult.

Dirty little secret about church ladies: If they lose any of their new found power or position in the new cult, they will be out the door in a new york second. You can bet your bottom dollar they will NOT be rearranging chairs or showing videos at the community hall, if they lose their big new service position. They are in it to be around the big one, and see this as their chance to get the darshan they never got in the old days when other big shots were running the show.

I think they are kind of like the weeds at TED Farkel's shop: Once you mow down one batch of them, another batch grows up to replace them.
And life goes on...
And we're all wondering when Roger eDrek will move down to Farkel's repair shop and be a 'church lady' there...

That seemed to be a fairly accurate asessment to me...

Good night...

La-ex

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:56:09 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Great post -- preserved some place? Webmaster?
Message:
I think your post is really valuable, and a good analysis of the current make-up of the cult. It would be great to put this some place. For example, could it, or something similar, be put in the 'Elan Vital Today' section of the website?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:03:09 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Joe
Subject: Hi Joe -- OT
Message:
Hi Joe. We're on real time here looking at our post times. How is SF? God, I am so glad to have missed all the inauguration crap. I couldn't take it.

How is SF? Is it correct that Tom got re-elected as Pres of the Board of Supes? If so, that's grand!

There's about to be a new public defender appointed -- John Burton's daughter. I know her from when she worked there before. She'll be great. And only the second female PD in the state. Alameda County has the other one.

Did you see my post about our dinner at Stars?!!

Much love, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:15:14 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi Marianne-- OT
Message:
I hope you are only kissing the Blarney stone.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:21:20 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Hi from the FH -OT
Message:
Oh, I am very well behaved. All Aquarians are extremely well behaved and very respectful of authority.

I'm writin' up a storm.

Looks like Latvian night will be a big event in SF.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 13:53:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Patrick
Subject: Well behaved!
Message:
Oh yeah Patrick,

Marianne is really well behaved- and all the bad people are in prison, the politicans really care about us, what's in the newspapers is true, and the Lord has come.

Ha ha ha ha.

She's as well behaved as the Wermacht were, invading the Soviet Union.

Comrade Anth. Political Commissar 7th Riga Brigade of the Anti-Cult Commandos.
(Political power grows out of the end of a broken beragon.)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:37:12 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: the mkost conservative fer sur
Message:
Oh, I am very well behaved. All Aquarians are extremely well behaved and very respectful of authority.

hahah that made me smile to day Marianne, as I sit at home because I had to leave the office because - they were all so serious!!

selene a february baby

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:26:19 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Happy birthday, sweetie darling -OT
Message:
I hope you have an absolutely fabulous celebration. Can't wait for your expose.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:10:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hi Marianne -- OT
Message:
Hope you are doing well. We are having Ireland-like wet/cold weather these days. And California is in a power crisis. Gee, and to think 'deregulation' and 'the free market' can't solve everything. I am shocked. Apparently the Governor is out buying electricity for all of us with taxpayer money.

Yeah, Tom is the pres, elected unanimously. I read today that the current Board of Supes is the most progressive of any city in the history of the country. Quite a claim. But I don't think they are all in Tom's pocket; they are a pretty independent group. I think live/work lofts will be the first to go. Then fix the healthcare system.

Yeah, Burton-Cruz has been named the new public defender, just this week.

I went to the anti-inaugural demo last Saturday. About 20,000 there. Lots of fun.

I don't remember our dinner at Stars, I guess because I drank too much. :) Thanks for not letting me drive home.:))

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:17:55 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: You were great, Joe!
Message:
Since you don't remember, I just thought I'd let you know!!!!

LOVE ALWAYS,
Marianne

PS Maybe we can do it again at Latvian night --- have a few drinks, I mean! Will Kevin come?

Rafael met Anth and J-M, and stayed at the actual Latvian Club in London for a week.I think he'd take a pass on attending. But he still can't understand how all these smart people he's met got stuck in the cult!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:17:57 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: A very current assessment= 1/3,1/3,1/3,...
Message:
And similar to the breakdown I posted under the ''Repost from Jim to Janet'' thread, probably an inappropriate thread to put it in.

The cult culture is now defintely one of out and out cut-throat ambition and holding onto status etc - the old-fashioned ''grace race'' without any pretence of ''spirituality.'' Those with paid positions are also fearful for their jobs and health benefits.

And yes the ordinary ''civilian'' premie is pretty bored without the sterile ''neutrality'' and white linen table-cloths of video events.

But many of them are not disaffected. They probably never have meditated much and tolerate a fatherly ''Master'' not only to inspire them but to give them a fix of bhakti juju occassionally, fairly lazy and apathetic like most of us.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 14:48:12 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: maybe 1/4,1/2,1/4,+the current cult/lite mindset..
Message:
PC-

On second thought, the formula could be closer to :

1/4 = total loser

1/2 = old timers along for the ride, in varying degrees of involvement, but wearing a bit thin...

1/4 = inspired 'church ladies'.

I think your assessments are valuable, because they present a realistic view of the current cult/lite mindset, which is very different than the David Smith/Darth Vader days of the old DLM, ashram days...

If people continue to paint the organization with that old broad brush, they will fall right into the current cult/lite's strategy: to portray exes as pissed off old timers who don't know anything about the new improved organization, and are really more concerned with griping about the old days and blaming their problems on 25 year old issues.(that never really happened, according to cult-central)

I think the current mindset, as perceived by many of the current PWK's, is something like the old Superman character.

He's Clark Kent, when they present him to the public, but they all know that he's really Superman, who in a moments notice can take off his reporter's clothes and streak off to the nearest stage and become Superman.

This mindset believes that he really is the lord, but they will present him as an interesting, yet powerful teacher, because the current culture just can't handle who he really is. But once the aspirant receives knowledge, it's just a matter of time before they realize he's lord and thank everyone profusely for turning them onto him. It's a real secret, with a real intrigue, especially with the secrecy thrown in, and little never-had-before meetings and power lunches with the big one. A spicy little tidbit to chew on, especially after all those years of waiting for something to happen that never did.

The challenge, I believe, is to somehow show PWK's how their mindset/belief system about m is:

1)just that, a belief system, and

2)what a strange belief system it really is, and where it came from.

3)how it limits them, and will eventually work against them.

This is not easy, as I have recently studied some of the responses I have gotten from PWK's about being 'ungrateful'.
It is obvious that they refuse to view m in human standards, even though he is now a declared human. He is still considered divine, or having special status, that removes him from the discussion.
There is an ahilles heel to all this, I believe, becuse their is an achilles heel to everything...
I think that's part of the challenge, and growth, and fun...to find it and expose it...

la-ex

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:03:42 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Clark Kent/Superman analogy brilliant
Message:
The hardcore are like scientologists - very good at rationalizing whatever they wish to rationalize and just as cold, selfish and ambitious. Certainly not the old mystics Way mentioned who either wanted to become enlightened or save the world.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:18:56 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: wwilliam@kumc.edu
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: To Patrick
Message:
Patrick,

I see you read my post about premie types. I talked about a busy-body premie who followed me one time when I left the ashram after satsang. I think you might know him. He moved to Oakland in the early 90's, so you may know him if the Oakland and San Francisco communities are combined. Please email me, (my address is above), so I can ask you about him personally. I know somebody who is trying to reach him.

Thanks,
William (Way)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:49:09 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To Way - sent you email NT
Message:
g
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 15:25:12 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: You don't feed steak to a baby!
Message:
Regarding the premie problem of Clark Kent vs Superman: the Moonies have the same problem. They don't like to tell their new recruits right away that Mr. Moon is God. They have a saying about this: 'You don't feed steak to a baby!' (Of course, Moonies were never vegetarians).
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:48:46 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Way, sent you email
Message:
Loved your moonie thing: ''You don't feed steak to a baby!'' Jeeeeesus the Rawatian Stepford wives really are like moonies. Just re-read your journey. Keep in touch, you old psychedelic fairy.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:00:46 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: A question about what sort of people become premie
Message:
All dictators attract sociopaths: Hitler and the SS; the Apartheid government and their secret police in whose custody people ''fell out of windows.''

Growing up in a police state I think made me smell them a mile away and by 1974 DLM was full of them. The nice innocent idealistic premies couldn't see that so I gave up trying to call their attention to the divine gestapo.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:51:06 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: a comment to Susan, a ? to Patrick
Message:
Dear Susan and Patrick,
Susan, I never thought of it that way but it makes a lot of sense. Didn't run into anyone like that, thank god, or if they were they were just starting their climb up the ladder so weren't holding enough power to really show their colors. Interesting consideration though.

Patrick, you may have posted about this already and I missed it but where are you from? Only if you feel comfortable of course. I only ask because you mentioned growing up in a police state.
Love,
Robyn

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:55:22 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: South Africa
Message:
And amazingly I have overcome my paranoia and practically all the facts of my life are here to be seen - somehwere in my ravings and drunken rampages on FV. Born in 1947. Apartheid invented the following year. Nazis.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:01:04 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: South Africa
Message:
Thanks Patrick. Are you still there? If you are, wonder what time it is there since we seem to be real time. I love that. :) I wonder if you posted here a long time ago or there was another person from S. Africa. Wish I could remember the name but...
Always wanted to see Africa, one of my daughters did, Kenya, for 3 months and loved it although life was extreemly hard for those that lived there.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:03:10 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hi Robyn
Message:
I live in San Francisco now.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:12:18 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Hi Robyn
Message:
Well shit Patrick, I was in SF a bit over a year ago to see my daughter and met Joe and Marianne. Sorry to have missed you.
Not many places farther removed from a police state though, eh? :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:18:15 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Open up your Golden Gate OT
Message:
Well we are going to have a Latvian night as soon as Marianne gets back from Eire in April.
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:39:12 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Open up your Golden Gate, WOW, OT
Message:
Dear Patrick,
What I think I forgot to mention is that my daughter isn't in SF anymore, can't afford to travel right at the moment either although I would absolutely love to be there.
Looks like bringing up the topic was an excellent idea though! :) I'll be missing yet another excellent evening I am sure!
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:48:06 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn, how far away do you live?
Message:
Notice I didn't ask where just in case you don't want to say.
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:03:45 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Robyn, how far away do you live?
Message:
Dear Patrick,
Hi, I live in Pennsylvania not far south of the New York State (not City) border. I put my mailing address on here once, can't find me anyway these very rural addresses aren't digital yet, :), it is a delima, I know I've worked on the problem in a past job.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:24:17 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn, thanks from nosy me NT
Message:
c
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:02:10 (GMT)
From: Marshall
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: I'm there!
Message:
Patrick,
I live close enough to SF to come up and join the party.
April, huh? I can't wait to finally meet some of these people I've been admiring for the last few years.
I'm definiteley not going to miss this and I hope a lot of ex's show up.
Imagine how much more fun a party of ex's will have compared to PWK's at a sterile satellite 'event'
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:10:30 (GMT)
From: Disculta
Email: None
To: Marshall
Subject: I'm there!
Message:
Me too! Can't wait! Should we start dieting (kinda like a high school reunion)?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:13:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Disculta
Subject: I'm (also) there! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:19:04 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe, Disculta, Marshall
Subject: Joe, Disculta, Marshall, Marianne
Message:
There'll be you three and Marianne and Charles and Andy and Francesca and Mark and me and who knows else and we'll have a fine old time. Yes, start dieting now because some of you know I like feeding people.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:23:39 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Hey Pat
Message:
If you twisted their arms, you might convince Heller and geRry to show up, with their women, who will tame them when they get out of hand. What do you think?

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:28:17 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Hey Marianne
Message:
Now that I would enjoy and get Joy off her butt in Seattle and some of those guys down in La-La Land and it'll be a reall shebang.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:03:45 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: The Moveable Feast
Message:
Hey, I'll fly up for this wingding, fer shure.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:31:38 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Monmot, I'll feed you roast tails of the City NT
Message:
d
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:08:45 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: The Best In The City, No Doubt....:-))).......NT
Message:
mm
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:10:15 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Monmot
Subject: hi Monmot --OT
Message:
I tried to email you but seem to have made a mistake. Glad you will be there. How's tricks?

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:17:47 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: hi Marianne --OT
Message:
I'll email you, so you can just reply. How's your project coming along?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:32:01 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Hey Patrick
Message:
Kevin and I are still planning on coming over for dinner probably next week if that works. I'll email you with details. I'm thinking mid-week.

Joe

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:45:38 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Joe
Message:
Goody goody. Let us know and we'll put out the red carpet. You're such a fitness freak - how the hell am I going to fatten you up?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:22:32 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: New forum
Message:
Patrick, and think you, me Way and Chuck, and maybe a few others, I'm not too sure, should start a 'CHEP' forum, meaning 'Current Homosexual, Ex-Premie.' ::))

Do you think we should allow fag-hags and bisexuals?

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:46:48 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: New forum
Message:
Dear Joe,
'Do you think we should allow fag-hags and bisexuals?'
Mother's of lesbians? (Just teasing :)
Hate to display my ignorance but what are fag-hags? I've seen that term a few times lately.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:37:21 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: a clarification
Message:
Dear Joe,
Just teasing about elbowing in on your group not being the loving mother of a lesbian. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:50:04 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Robyn, a fag hag is a girl who loves gay boys NT
Message:
t
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:08:09 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: That's one hell of a sad love pattern, eh?!(nt)
Message:
;out
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:26:44 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: That's one hell of a sad love pattern -NOT
Message:
It means women who enjoy hanging with fags. I shouldn't have said ''loves'' because that implies sex. This is just a friendship thing.
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 14:12:33 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: oh, then I'm proud to be one! Fag-hag! :)(nt)
Message:
syrtwh
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 21:59:29 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Bless you Robyn....
Message:
Hope you are doing well, and hope Jessica is enjoying the redwoods!
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 03:02:03 (GMT)
From: Nick Danger, Third Eye
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Also Known As Fruit Flies......... NT
Message:
mm
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:28:00 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Nick Danger, Third Eye
Subject: San Fran - city of fruits , nuts and vegetables NT
Message:
d
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:01:44 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Joe,you takin aspirants too?My brother...
Message:
FRANK is ....you know....a little queer....gay, as you city folks put it.

Now FRANK'S just a DV aspirant so far, but he is genuine and certified gay, and is lookin for holy company, as we all are...

He likes to hunt possum, squirrel and coons, plays a mean banjo, and runs a little hair cuttin shop in Mobile...

Is he allowed in the club?

Respectfully PC,
TED Farkel

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 02:54:11 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: TED Farkel
Subject: TED, your brother's not gay - he'd fuck anything
Message:
just like you, you old hog-fucker. I can smell the cheese from here. Maybe if you could get him to take a bath.. but some like 'em rough and dirty.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:33:44 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, sweetie darling, that would be absolutely OT
Message:
fabulous and for sure we'll include the fag hags and AC/DCs.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:34:49 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: oh, please, please say yes, please -OT, nt
Message:
xxxxx
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:49:00 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, Joe, Marshal, Disculta et al
Message:
If we have another Latvian night in June, Bazza will be here.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 03:55:14 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Mr.eDrek-need help on Blue Aquarius tunes.....
Message:
Hey Mr. eDrek-

Been outa town a coupla days,huntin a bunch of coons and possum on my granddaddy's land over in the next county...

BTW, the varmint stew is lookin good for this year, with all the road kill we been findin..

If we can multi-level-market this varmint stew during the Bhole Ji/Blue Aquarius shindig, then I'd like to talk to some of them 'big boys' that you hob-knob with out there in southern california about what kinda deal you can cut ole TED in on...I think we could throw in some old chunks of tires and say it's tofu, for the vegie premies....and I do like that tie in you got with burger king for the 'holy family action figure collectible set'...that's a winner in TED's book, Mr. eDrek...I like the way you think, son, let's partner up on that one...

But we gotta talk music right now, Mr.eDrek.

Ya know, I'd give anything to bang a drum or two in Bholes big band this summer..so would Dave Smith; he got pretty good while he was here at the Transmission shop this month..

I think we need to come up with a list of hits...70's devotional hits, plus some new stuff, lots of old nostalgia premie stuff....
I wanna get this list together soon, so Dave and I can start practicin for the band try-outs this spring when big Bhole and Satpal come to town.

So far, we got 'If I had a hammer', by fakiranand. (someone else thought fakiranand could do 'A hard brains a gonna fall', by bobby dylan)

Any other suggestions?

In tune,
TED Farkel

PS: I like the idea of the 'Truth and Reconciliation' tour by the two fat satguru brothers more and more.
I think it could dovetail nicely with a broader 'family values' theme that sells well down here in the Bible Belt.
Thing is, has marketing come up with a way to get them two fat boys up on the same stage?
Who's gonna give satsang first?
And who's gonna get top billing?

Just wonderin,
TED Farkel
(thinkin a lot,
but also doing #3)

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 00:08:37 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: TED Farkel
Subject: Mr.eDrek-need help on Blue Aquarius tunes.....
Message:
TED,

I'm going to have to keep this one real short and I'll get back to ya on those business opportunites.

I'm swamped busy with my job, TED. As you know I'm working as the grocery bagger here at the Trancas Market so that I can be just as close to my Lord as possible. And there's a deluge of rain happening today and all the local Malibu residents like Madonna and Ricky Martin and all of 'em are here at the store stocking up on groceries in case mud slides close PCH like it did a few years ago.

Oh, don't worry about our Lord. No, our Lord has complete omniscience and he has seen fit to ensure that he and his family will survive anything including and up to a Richter 9 earthquake up there in the Malibu Marble Palace where I once spent three whole hours blissfully polishing the silver swan on the front gate.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:41:09 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: TED Farkel
Subject: TED, I'm gettin' a DIVORCE, as Tammy Wynette says
Message:
TED, that last post of yours just about made me wet my knickers (as they say over here in U-rope) through and through. I am sick of my prissy public defender husband up here in commie land San Francisco. When I get back from Ireland, I'm tossing him overboard and heading straight to your doorstep in Alabama.

But you are against the death penalty, right TED?

Your ardent admirer from across the ocean (for only a little while longer),
Marianne, ex-premie extraordinaire

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 01:45:52 (GMT)
From: TED Farkel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Marianne, before you do anything rash,could you
Message:
if you don't mind that is....well, I'm not exactly sure how to put this, but....could you send ole country boy TED Farkel a picture of yourself? BEFORE you come on down to Alabama?( a RECENT one, if you don't mind..)

It might make some of this a tad easier, if you know what I mean..

Sincerely synchronized,
TED Farkel

PS: Don't know if I told some of you folks or not, but I've got a twin brother, FRANK Farkel. He's a DV aspirant and plays a mean banjo...

PS#2: Marianne, if you are serious, and we DON'T hit it off, I know ole Dave Smith is harborin a few mighty fantasies, and got a hankerin to check some of them out...I could maybe set ya up...

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 15:34:11 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: TED Farkel
Subject: TED, eDrek will vouch for my wiles and charms
Message:
TED, have you seen the LOTU video? Well, I am in it. If you watch it up to about 7 minutes in, there is a shot of a premie parade during SoulRush. You will see a big tall guy waving to the crowd. I am walking right next to him, holding a banner. Even though LOTU was made back in 1973 when I was 17, I STILL LOOK EXACTLY THE SAME! eDrek has met me and has seen pictures of me from when I was a devout ashram sister. He will tell you that I haven't aged a single bit. Anyway, Ireland is a very backward country still and they don't have cameras here. So take a look at LOTU and you'll be convinced.

By the way, do you have someone down there who can give me my daily electrolysis treatment?

In devotion,
Marianne

PS I hope you've been keeping an eye on that David Smith, because I hear he's been getting very cozy with the livestock out back of the shop. Don't you wonder why the pigs are always in such a frenzy in the middle of the night?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:07:11 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: TED Farkel
Subject: How about slip slidin away. by the EX Premie Band
Message:
I play Pretty good Bass
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:00:13 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: and ' 50 ways to leave your lover'
Message:
..ya jus slip out the back, jack...make a new plan, stan..no need to be coy, roy...ya jes setchaself free...

ya jus hop on the bus, gus--no need ta discuss muuuuuch...ya jus drop off the key, lee


an setcho seff free,,,------,,,,,,-----

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:44:59 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: thunderstealing@hotmail.com
To: Brian S
Subject: Brian, why do you have to encourage TED?
Message:
You must know by now that he is really an embarassment to us more serious folks here with his uncouth ways. And now you're leading him on to think that rock 'n roll is acceptable. He's a second generation hogfucker from hicksville and should not be encouraged. I must say I expected better from you and thought you would set him straight and let him know that nice people only listen to classical music. I don't care how devoted he is. He thinks the Lord of the whole fucking Universe wants to listen to that shit when his divine ears could be listening to Jazsi Katzenflammer's astonishing new opera, ''The Gallant Gallstone'' in E flat major.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:25:38 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: None
To: Thelma
Subject: I am an equal opportunity encourager, Patrick
Message:
Just a bit of fun here, a little light touch, this is actually a rare occasion where Ted posted something that we can play with and get an honest laugh out of it.

I take what he says with a grain of salt, he is not to be taken seriously, but I can take him lightly

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:53:25 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Brian, do not encourage TED
Message:
His satsang is so low class. I know he is a sincere devotee but can you imagine using an old hub cap for arti. NO, he is an embarassment to all of us true gopis. And his friend eDrek gives him enough encouragment already. Let them keep their hogfucking satsang in Alabammy with all the Radaswammy double whammy flimflammy low class premies. Up here in San Francisco...
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 07:16:29 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Soul Rush 2001 will be coming to San Francisco
Message:
don't ya know!

We'll be setting up a public program in Golden Gate Park and Renee Davis has agreed to speak.

Patrick, I know that you will not want to miss this one.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 08:00:30 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: eDrek is it true? You set this ol' hippie's heart
Message:
on fire. Tell me more. I've already got nine stoned hindu crusty aspirants lined up. And, eventhough they're on SSI, their weed is the best in this cool, grey, foggy City by the Bay. Did you invite the Lord - no, not the Bill Gates of kriya yoga - no, not Bush-lite either - the real one?
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 07:09:12 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Ok patrick, I have had my fun for the day (nt)
Message:
NNN
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:16:12 (GMT)
From: janet the fag hag
Email: None
To: queen Thelma
Subject: 2 snaps up, mae! let me read YOUR beads--
Message:
hicksville is a nice town in new york, bay-bee. they only hogs there are harleys,b>!!!


and as for 'jazsi', well!!--if you're trying to say 'yahtzee', every one who's anyone knows that boring little game!

and as for the Gallant Gallstone, it was composed in E flat major because it was written to evoke the unmistakeable sounds of flatulence! ma-a-a-a-jor flatulence. and if YOU applaud such puerile works, well!! I say you belong right down there on your back, under the universal drive with Ted, getting that obnoxious lubrication all over everything. but then, i presume you already know all about that, don't you sweetie...yes, i thought you mighhhhhhht? hm? here, darling, have some absinthe. it goes so well with your jealousy....

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:26:36 (GMT)
From: Thelma
Email: None
To: janet the fag hag
Subject: Yes, Janet, but everyone knows that your friend
Message:
Pauline Premie is a second generation trailer trash navel-gazer trying to pass herself off as ''spiritual.'' So low class, with no taste!

And I suppose you like the same sort of crystal-tinkling and whale-blowing New Age noise as she does.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 13:42:49 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: janet the fag hag
Subject: 2 snaps up, mae! let me read YOUR beads--
Message:
janet,

what are you on about?

Can you re-write that in English?

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:00:02 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: does any one here remember this incident
Message:
it was about 1975 or 6.

there was a young mahatma who had come to denver to spread the holy crap.

he was being punished or chastened by the all powerful jerk lord and was forced to work at rainbow grocery.

one sunday night at the community meeting he got up to give snotsang and began by declaring that he was a holy man and was above doing service at rainbow grocery.

either before or after this incident he became involved with a young premie girl who became pregnant.

(can you imagine the absolute destruction of her life that must have come about when she realized that her cult involvement had led her to a fascination with a once so called holy man who was later unable to stoop to doing service at the rainbow grocery.)

anyway all of the security heavies in the denver community ran to the stage and escorted him away... these sunday meetings gathered a large crowd...1,000 or more fools.

just wondering if anyone could fill in the details

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:07:06 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: None
To: blood and all spacecadets
Subject: does any one here remember this incident i do
Message:
Yes! thats the mahatma i was working with at the rainbow grocery .he was a sweet person . we were both on a punishment detail at the grocery .Me for cursing Guru after being screemed at for 5 minits at san francisco satsang by the lunitic Ross a crazy italian ashram president.That Mahatma was the one who told me two mahatmas had come to my house to slit my throat in san francisco.
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:06:48 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: It was Mahatma Vijayanand
Message:
I wasn't in Denver at the time, but I recall when it happened, around 1976, I think. I had received knowledge from Mahatma Vijayanand a few years earlier, in Omaha, Nebraska. He was very short, just like Maharaji.

I don't know what Vijayanand did to get relegated to bagging rasins at Rainbow Grocery, or if I knew, I don't remember, but I recall being told about the Denver incident, that he had a girlfriend, and that he started being a kind of Guru himself, and I think I heard he was trying to translate the Bagavaad Gita, or something? I think it was Bobby who mentioned that.

I remember at the time he left, I rationalized it like this. When I received knowledge, Vijayanand said the he was so advanced that he didn't have to meditate, rather, he was able to sort of transport himself to be in the presence of Maharaji and Mata Ji. I remember at the time thinking this was weird, but I was just awed that this Mahatama was just so high that he was in this advanced spiritual state. So, when he left, I just thought he got confused because he didn't meditate, just like the holy family.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 14:23:16 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: delores@gofree.indigo.ie
To: Joe
Subject: Vij was fond of the female premies
Message:
Hi Joe and everyone. Vijayanand got me transferred out from under Bill Patterson's thumb in the Kalamazoo ashram to the Columbus ashram. He took quite a personal interest in me.

He was touring the midwest in 1974 around the time M got married. He came to Columbus, and Greg Vizzone was travelling with him. He was very happy to see me and that I was doing well. He was around for 5 days or so, and started calling me 'Peace Bomb' because I laughed at his jokes so much. His next stop on tour was Pittsburgh. I went along on the ride to drop him off at the ashram there. He was munching on a watermelon as we drove, and began feeding me the seeds, saying something about how since I was celibate, these were the only seeds I would be getting or something like that. I was 18, and although pretty worldly given my life's experiences by that time, I totally did not absorb the rather sexual connotation to the incident.

When he quit DLM, he called me in San Francisco and said he wanted to come out to live there and go to Stanford. He had an advanced degree, I think. He wanted to see his little Peace Bomb. Of course, I called friends in HQ and immediately snitched him off, good little devotee that I was. He was nice to me, even if a bit sexual. The celibate life was not for him it seems.

Maybe he even reads this site! If so, hi Vij. I still have pictures of you from a walk we took in the park in Columbus, you smiling in saffron robes, in the middle of a group of shiny eyed premies, giving satsang in your understated and often humorous way. You weren't judgmental -- always kind -- to me anyway. Thanks for that. Hope you're having a good life.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:22:24 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Mahatma Vijayanand
Message:
Funny that Vijay's name should come up.

I just through dropping off a letter to the editor of the local
entertainment newspaper called the Advocate.
The paper has college age writers so the articles are not up to forum quality!
For two issues now, in the letter to the editor section, two men have written in to lambaste american women.
One of the writers is a Premie!
david Summersong-he actually put a PhD after his name, and claimed he has been to 80 countries and so he KNOWS something about global women.
WELL, I couldnt pass this one up. I mentioned that I knew his him, AND his ex wife and recent girlfriend. And that the PhD must mean Penniless Hallucinates Degree. (he has wildly exaggerated this kind of self promotion before)
I went on to debunk all the comments about women.

I mention him because he named his only child after VIJAY!
No lie, I was around at the time.
What we heard was that Vijay told our lord in the first group mahatma meeting that included all the first new batch of western instructors and no other indian instructor but charanand.
He told our lord that he didnt see light.
THAT was when he was put on hold. Bill Patterson claimed that 'if he had only surrendered, he would have been an instrutor again'
Thanks for that assumeing Bill Patterson! I would also assume all over the place to cover every wierd thing.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:51:01 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Mahatma Vijayanand..David Summersong?!!?!!
Message:
bill,

I remember a David Summerson who had a wife and kid, arrived in the mid 70s in the Hartford community. He had a very pompous attitude about what he knew and was real clean cut, blonde or light brown hair, and kind of in your face?

Same guy?

Love,
Cynthia

P.S. My monitor is about to shit the bed so I don't know how much more time I have left with it. I may be on ''black out for a couple of days, until I can get my butt to Burlington (a pain in the ass drive, gotta go into the city, ya know...traffic lights and stuff cause a lot of stress)!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 00:07:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: David Summersong
Message:
The day that guy gets a PhD is the day hell freezes over. I knew him in San Antonio when we both were premies. What a know-it-all windbag.

But his wife at that time was very nice, and attractive, although he seemed to treat her like some kind of posession. What did he say about being an expert on 'global women?'

Yes, when Vijayanand left, everyone said it was because he wasn't surrendered and got in his mind. It was described as a lesson to all of us.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:20:49 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I'll get a copy and post it.-nt
Message:
asddf
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:18:37 (GMT)
From: Kap
Email: None
To: Joe and the Blissed on.
Subject: It was Mahatma Vijayanand
Message:
Yep!we were buddies and used to astral travel together. we were on the punishment detail at the rainbow grocery together. he was being punished for humping one of the ashram vegetable Virgins.
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:09:57 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Kap
Subject: Vijay went on to become the first manmath--
Message:
denouncing rawat as being a fat playboy, only into money and sex and drugs, and not truly giving a damn about spreading the knowledge or living in it.
When i went back to Denver in 1982, i found VJ had declared himself a true teacher of the knowledge, and married his gf, and opened his own serious school in Denver, taking out ads in the local papers advertising satsang and public feasts every week, was collecting students and teaching them the techniques, and the philosophy, the original, purist way.
He kept his robes for a while, then shifted over to western dress. I remember him being in the checkout line in front of me, at a King Sooper's, out in Aurora, one winter day when i had just finished selling my plasma for side money. I recognized him and addressed him aloud, as 'mahatmaji' ,and he turned and searched my face, but didnt know me. I asked him how his classes were doing, and he nodded curtly and politely and did not smile, and checked thru rather hastily. I remember his eyes blazing like black fire when he swung around to see who i was. Sort of a brusque, weekend dressed indian suburban with the eyes of a madman.
I heard that a goodly number of premies went with him and left maharaji in the dirt, deciding that they liked VJ's style of The Company Of Truth better.
If i',m not mistaken, his affair did'nt start in Denver. It started in the chicago ashram, with the housemother there, or else with the sister who was assigned to serve him. I was there, on the way to amherst, and we all picked up on it. there was something going on,there, that was a lot like gopi/groupie infatuation from her to him. and he was discovered and sent to Denver for rehab and punishment, but she followed him there and they renounced maharaji together. I, too, was at that uproarious community meeting at which he declared himself. Kap--wasnt it held in the old jewish auditorium? with the nauseating greygreen carpeting? I don't think it was at East High. the memory doesnt feel like it.
last i remember, when i left denver in 1993, he and his wife and the school were going strong, doing fine.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:24:22 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Vijay was denonced as i was twice in satsang
Message:
yes ,i feel for the guy. i was denounced twice in satsang. once for liking the same girl Ross the san francisco ashram president was fking.once for putting my arm arround a premie girl when we were packed togeather like sardines at a denver satsang in the old office building in 1976.it turned out she must have been fridgid or something. she jumped up and complains like im molesting her or something. there actually wasnt room for my arm as we were packed in so close.i missed the public exile of vijay did you know i had a child by a premie girl in 1976 but when i was ostracized she refused to let me see the child .i only saw the child once from a distence as he was walking away .he was named after Raji i believe.Raji that was his name .this has been a source of great heart ache for me.the mothers name was judy she was from sanfrancisco.she lived with a guy named Bill in denver in 1976.she had the child in 1974 i believe.i was driven to a nervous breakdown and a seriuos bleeding ulcer with no medical attention after being ostracized and the attempt on my life.
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 23:01:00 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: what's the story on bill patterson
Message:
and the rest of the patterson family
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 07:17:57 (GMT)
From: EXiT
Email: None
To: blood
Subject: I heard Bill was living in Oregan. Not sure NT
Message:
r
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