Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Tues, Jan 30, 2001 at 13:25:46 (GMT)
From: Jan 24, 2001 To: Jan 29, 2001 Page: 5 Of: 5


Lesley -:- Dear Turner, I hope you read your own posts. -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:11:48 (GMT)
__ Brian S -:- Dear Turner, I hope you read your own posts. -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:48:42 (GMT)
__ __ Earon Kavanagh -:- Dear Turner, I hope you read your own posts. -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:38:32 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- 'disingenuous relationships.' thankz brian. -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 23:09:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian S -:- watch where you are swinging that thing -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:35:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Earon Kavanagh -:- watch where you are swinging that thing -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:43:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lesley -:- No man is an island unto himself -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:28:37 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Dear Turner, I hope you read your own posts. -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:33:29 (GMT)

Joe -:- A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:16:43 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:57:21 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:41:14 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:51:49 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- the argyle-when?? i was there! the crew i knew was -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:18:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca Reitano -:- The Argyle, a vague memory -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:56:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Argyle, a vague memory -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:41:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca Reitano -:- The Argyle, a vague memory -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:43:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- The Argyle, a vague memory -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:12:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ Scott T. -:- the argyle-when?? i was there! the crew i knew was -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 16:52:48 (GMT)
__ Cynthia -:- A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:20:51 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:57:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- Good job Joe! Kinda like brother sun/sister moon -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:16:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Brother Sun/Sister Moon and One flew Over ... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Movie? King of Hearts? NT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:25:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- King of Hearts? With Oliver Bates? .....nt -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:24:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Monmot, you never answered my paranoid question OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:49:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Oops .........OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:09:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Maupin .........OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Maupin .........OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:48:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I did email Sheldon -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:18:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I did email Sheldon -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:32:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Monmot - decadent spirituality - I like that (OT) -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:16:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Perhaps 'Tails of the City'.....(nt/ot) -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:30:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- King of Hearts? With ALAN bates NT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:26:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- I had Alan, then changed it to Oliver. Honest...NT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:29:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- I had Alan, then changed it to Oliver. Honest...OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:36:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Indeed I Do.........OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:12:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Oliver.........OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:19:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Alan Bates OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:28:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Alan Bates OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:46:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Alan Bates OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:54:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Alan Bates OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:57:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joy -:- Alan Bates as Gulliver -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:06:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Joy, Alan Bates as Gulliver (OT) -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:29:33 (GMT)
__ D_Thomas -:- 1983 -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:17:20 (GMT)
__ __ janet -:- 1983--- parallels -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:05:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ D_Thomas -:- 1983--- parallels -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:10:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ janet -:- 1983--- parallels and paranoia--actually, .. -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:59:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- David - that's paranoia -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:52:34 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Wow, quite a story.... -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 23:59:10 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- my same ole answer - into the 90's Joe -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:12:15 (GMT)
__ Patrick Conlon -:- A theory...... glasnost -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:56:40 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- on leaving the Maharaji Cult -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:36:28 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Joe, on leaving the Maharaji Cult -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:04:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lesley -:- Bored and miffed??????? -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:32:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- actually I was bored and miffed -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:37:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lesley -:- Yeah, I understand, thanks, NT -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:31:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- actually I was bored and miffed...Selene -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:54:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- I was and am so un street-wise afterwards -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:59:51 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- FA's ! Runamuck's outing a fellow forum member !!! -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:46:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- God damn you, Gerry! -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:04:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- God damn you, Gerry! -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:06:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Unpack the sarcasm and make your point, huh? -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:55:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- my thoughts are spelled out in Such/Key thread nt -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 03:19:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You call THIS 'spelled out'? -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:10:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- okLordJim, ask4me2spellitout uptop u will receive -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:32:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You getting a little aphasiac on us, Run? (nt) -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 13:28:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steve Quint -:- Jim -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:59:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- i'm in my mind again Mahatma Jim nt -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:30:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- To Jim---OT -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:21:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh no -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:36:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ janet -:- who was she. whatd she do? this happened blocks .. -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:16:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Deirdre O'Donohue used to be OT -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:53:45 (GMT)

Joe -:- To just 'walk away.' -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:47:41 (GMT)
__ bill -:- To just 'walk away.' -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 03:49:44 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- To just 'walk away.' -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:15:37 (GMT)
__ Francesca Reitano -:- Started with walking away from 'shram 1st -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 23:06:04 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing? -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 23:22:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Francesca -:- Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing? -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:14:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's quite a story -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:40:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- More on Bhole Ji's band -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:33:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- More on Bhole Ji's band -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:33:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- More on Bhole Ji's band -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:48:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ulf -:- More on Bhole Ji's band (knud) -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:21:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Sorry Ulf, didn't know her! n/t -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:51:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ kap -:- yes hard times were had. -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 10:01:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why should anyone believe you? -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:20:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing? -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:40:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing? -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:38:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing? -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:06:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Correction ... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:48:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing? -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:42:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Can you say more about.. -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:29:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Can you say more about.. -:- Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:40:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Yes, Francesca was that fabulous singer -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:19:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Well I don't know about that but ... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:44:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- No false modesty now Francesca -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:12:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Now, Ham, I hope you will understand -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:17:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Francesca -:- Was not on the album ... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:57:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Well you know you were my singing angel -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:46:49 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Walking away -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:57:50 (GMT)
__ cq -:- 'just walk away Renee' ... -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:44:11 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Snapping? -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:13:24 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Snapping? -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:56:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Never Underestimate the Power of French Films -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:16:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joy -:- Never Underestimate the Power of French Films -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:52:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- To Monmot: re: Parisian longings (ot) -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:43:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Nabbed a copy........ (ot) -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:11:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- To Monmot: re: Parisian longings (ot) -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:58:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Just in Time (ot) -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:57:14 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- To just 'walk away.' -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:58:33 (GMT)
__ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Joe - 'walking away.' -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:53:29 (GMT)

RobertB -:- Name that cult, oldies but goodies -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:29:31 (GMT)
__ tONETTE -:- This is probably cheating........... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:14:15 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Marshall Applewhite of Heaven's Gate? (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:44:07 (GMT)
__ __ RobertB -:- The answer is inside -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:00:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ bill -:- The answer is enjoy this life and ignore god. -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:10:06 (GMT)

Way -:- Time for closure with Turner yet??? -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:28:55 (GMT)
__ Brian Smith -:- Turner I would like to talk with you some/repost -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:33:13 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- I'd rather attempt a serious discussion .... -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:46:36 (GMT)
__ __ DJURO -:- Hal, how are you, -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:29:30 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- Hal, you seem to be saying... -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:18:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Hal -:- I'm chuckling - thanks nt -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:08:31 (GMT)

Salam -:- rawatSucks needs help -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 13:15:03 (GMT)
__ Djuro -:- Salam, -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:31:06 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Djuro -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 13:09:27 (GMT)
__ salam -:- The image enlarged -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:03:48 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- rawatSucks needs spellchecking! -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:39:13 (GMT)
__ __ salam -:- rawatSucks needs spellchecking! -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:50:22 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- rawatSucks needs help -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 15:03:45 (GMT)
__ __ rawatSucks -:- I mean salam -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:03:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Salam, I looked at your site... -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:12:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ salam -:- Yeah that is where the big A is -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:39:10 (GMT)

JTF -:- An invitation to dinner -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:36:32 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Where did all the posts go -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:54:12 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Is this the same Hare Krishna -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:42:26 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- Yes, they too seem to sanction child abuse(nt) -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 14:26:32 (GMT)
__ DJURO -:- An invitation to dinner -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:18:17 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- An invitation to dinner -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:50:47 (GMT)
__ __ JTF -:- An invitation to dinner -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:23:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- An invitation to dinner -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:15:04 (GMT)

Fact -:- For the PREMIES: Khrisnamurti -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 10:51:52 (GMT)
__ Djuro -:- For the PREMIES: Khrisnamurti -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:40:09 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- For the PREMIES: Khrisnamurti -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 13:56:19 (GMT)
__ __ JohnT -:- Like it! Nice one, Scott T. -nt- -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:42:26 (GMT)
__ Djuro -:- For the PREMIES: Khrisnamurti -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:40:50 (GMT)
__ Aussi Ji -:- Hey that is nice -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:24:51 (GMT)
__ Fact -:- For the PREMIES: Khrisnamurti- MORE -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:21:22 (GMT)
__ __ Aussi Ji -:- Forget nice it is fucking beautiful! nt -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:30:44 (GMT)

Suchabanana -:- a KEY to unshackling chains. and see you later... -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 02:58:10 (GMT)
__ Bin Liner -:- You encouraged me about 6 mnths ago ... -:- Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:24:24 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- see you later... -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:14:15 (GMT)
__ Lesley -:- Dear Such -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:29:07 (GMT)
__ Stincky Dung -:- will miss you. -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 09:41:39 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- hey such (and yes we have no anandas) -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 08:56:11 (GMT)
__ __ Runamok -:- what about the moral nt -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:17:42 (GMT)
__ Patrick Conlon -:- a KEY to unshackling chains. and see you later... -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 03:49:19 (GMT)
__ __ such -:- parting flame,huh? glass house stones.Peace LOL(nt -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 08:06:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Patrick Conlon -:- Not a parting flame just a spark of curiosity (nt) -:- Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 09:03:18 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:11:48 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Dear Turner, I hope you read your own posts.
Message:
One important point:

It is clear to me that you have given your very real heart to Maharaji.........or is it?

Is it perhaps more accurate to say that you love and admire the very nice human qualities you enumerated.

When you finally face the unimaginable, the soul destroying unpalatable fact that Maharaji, your role model, is just a show and the real man is Rawat, remember that post you just wrote.

Maharaji's face might be engraved on your heart, but it rubs out surprisingly easily and what you really love remains.

Good Luck, Lesley

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:48:42 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: Dear Turner, I hope you read your own posts.
Message:
What an beautiful way of Putting this Leslie. I have been trying to put into words that very experience.

When I gave up Maharaji, I gave up my illusions, not just about him, but that decision opened the door to honestly look at all the other disingenuous relationships in my life. What was left is pure reality, talk about being blissed out, reality takes the cake anyday over enslavement to false Masters.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:38:32 (GMT)
From: Earon Kavanagh
Email: earonkavanagh@mortimer.com
To: Brian S
Subject: Dear Turner, I hope you read your own posts.
Message:
Hear Hear!!
Earon
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 23:09:55 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: 'disingenuous relationships.' thankz brian.
Message:
i have been aggravated for quite some time by my own bullshit detectors, which have been piercing in my ear,bugging me that i indeed have gotten myself into a lie, with a whole webwork of disingenous relationships that i dont really mean and dont want to be a part of and i have been yearning for a weapon or a decisive opportunity to be done with those. not just with people, but with objects, places, habits, beliefs....and i know it all comes from my time in the cult. its frustrating because theres a pendulum. first theres the fake embrasure that was motivated by trying to look the part. then comes the revulsion and the impulse to just get rid of it. then comes the pangs of 'but its in really good shape. it doesnt deserve to be chucked, just because you're going thru something' and then theres the getting rid of it for a while, to let it leave my life. and then coming back to it after i've cooled off, to see if i still like it for its own reasons, or for other non maharaji reasons.
I'm glad you named it for what it is. Hearing you call it gives me some extra impulse to go ahead and get rid of the fakery.
right now i have such a case on my hands. my son urged me to buy this lotus paperweight, made of austrian crystals glued together, at the last gemshow we attended. this was a month before i ex'ed. When I saw it there, the fake, premie side of me said 'oooh, a lotus made of jewels, full of lights. how symbolic. that so perfectly symbolizes knowledge. ' and the real side of me said 'stop right there. thats bullshit and you know it. you couldnt care less about having such a thing. its a cheap trinket, made with no talent or feel, theres nothing to it. it's a tchotchke, a glittering piece of junk. let's move on, shall we?
so i moved on and looked at many other things.
nonetheless, on the way back, at show's end, my son spied it, and he picked it up, and said we should get it. i wavered, but he was excited. so we bought it after all.
But i'm still ambivalent. I left it in its case for a coupla months. then one day i took it out at set it on my altar--which has incense and candles and a picture of krishna and one of jesus meditating (which i got from vijayanand's booth by the way) and some other frufru on it. the cats promptly knocked it over and a 'petal' broke off. that was a sign. yesterday i was redoiy window with al the other crystals hung in the sun and i put it there. then decided to repair the fallen piece. i had to hold it still till the glue set, so having nothing better to do, I went into meditation to pass the time and sit still. it occurred to me some time later that by doing so, I was changing the energy of the object, so i deliberately concentrated on 'clearing' it and 'cleaning' it and replacin whatever energy was in it with better. by the time the glue took hold, the thing looked different, somehow. more balanced, more symmetrical, more sacred and made with art. when i turned it around to check for flaws, it struck me that it now looked more like one of those tibetan mandalas, or an illustration of the chakras I see in the scriptures. so I am still ambivalent. I like it better, but it still isnt the overblown representation of The Light or The Thousand Petalled Lotus that my premie ego wanted it to be. is it the object's fault? or mine? and who should suffer for it? should I chuck it, just because i made a stupid error in my own head?
i have i- dont- know- how- many such things in my home, in my possession.i wonder by what touchstone to sort them all. should i go thru my house with a sword and ruthlessly slice away everything that offends?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:35:01 (GMT)
From: Brian S
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: watch where you are swinging that thing
Message:
Janet,
Take it easy with the sword...
You have sliced out the one thing that is most important, your enslavement to the Cult and M.

I dismantled my possessions once, gave away everything, left my wife and 3 young children and ran off to India to spend some time with the living Lord. When I came back, she was gone took the kids with her filed for divorce and there I was penniless and homeless without possessions, money, job, or family.

I have had many regrets about this over the years, but it took me 29 years to fully realize how big a mistake I had really made.
My kids suffered a lot and are still trying to sort and sift through the wreakage. We have made more progress in the last two weeks healing old wounds than ever in our entire relationship together.
This new healing incidently coincides with my commitment to let M and the cult go.

I did the right thing for myself getting out, and I can now do the right thing by others that were affected and make honest ammends.

The sword of truth is a mighty weapon

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:43:37 (GMT)
From: Earon Kavanagh
Email: earonkavanagh@mortimer.com
To: Brian S
Subject: watch where you are swinging that thing
Message:
Dear Brian,
That's a very moving story you just told. We are from the same era. Have we ever met? Were you in India during the Jumbo jet vist - 3000 strong? Feel free to email me privately on this if you wish.
Earon
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:28:37 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Brian S
Subject: No man is an island unto himself
Message:
That's a famous quote from the poet John Dunne, it was a favourite of my older brother.

Now we have the chance to acknowledge that simple fact. Me too, Brian, I have been making 'honest amends' and also doing a lot of talking, and now, I am struck dumb again, (happy as a full blown rose). It is good to know that this time, we won't wake up in the morning and find it was just a dream!

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:33:29 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Turner
Subject: Dear Turner, I hope you read your own posts.
Message:
Why did you come here? Do read your posts again. Who were they talking to? Why?

Why cast those words here? What was the point?

If you really did believe what you wrote - well, you wouldn't have bothered to write it here. Such a paragon as you painted needs no help from you.

You know. And soon you will know you know.

Even I understand that.

JohnT
- never a premie

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:16:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult
Message:
I looked at the Ex-premie white pages and found something interesting. I think there are a couple hundred people listed there, and one of the questions asked is the year that person left the Maharaji cult. Not everyone answered the question, but I did a rough analysis, and there are two 'spikes' of years when a lot of people left. One is 1976, and one is around 1982-1983.

I have a theory about this. In 1976, and again in 1982-1983, there was a 'let-up' in some of the cult repression, if I remember correctly. In 1976, there was a lot of encouragement to talk about and analyze how things were done, how to maximize our potential, what is the purpose of the organization, etc. There were workshops in instead of satsang. People were encouraged to develop as people and some premies were even encouraged to see Maharaji as something other than the incarnation of god. It was a very brief period, followed by extreme repression in 1977-1982, but droves of people left the ashrams and the cult, got married, went back to college, etc. A large number of those people never came back to the cult.

Then, after the dark, devotional period of 1977-1982, there was another 'let-up.' At least for the ashram premies, after things got outrageously oppressive and repressive in 1981, there began to be a let up. The ashram premies were not policed as much, there wasn't as much emphasis on following the rules, going to satsang every night, etc. Maharaji also seemed backing off his DEVOTION/SURRENDER tirade he had screached at us for the previous few years.

So, I guess the theory is that when there is a let-up in repression in the cult, instead of making people more comfortable and encouraging them to stay, it actually enhances the possibility that some people will question the cult, think for themselves, and leave. I think that happened in 1976 and 1983, and if I look back on my own situation, I think that's what happened with me when I left in 1983.

I wasn't going to leave in 1979-1980, and certainly not during the ashram inquisition of 1981, at the height of the dark period, because I wasn't going to allow myself to think about me or my situation, because so much fear was being espoused by Maharaji, as amplified and parrotted by the initiators and the other premies. But when that dissipated, that began to change.

Anyone else have a similar experience?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:57:21 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult
Message:
Hi Joe! :)
I am not in the white pages but I left in '76 also! It was right after m married, defying his family and encouraging premies to make babies, having discovered for himself, the joys of sex :), I guess.
I know I drifted away but maybe I wouldn't have if things hadn't loosened up, who knows. Thank god, whatever the reason! I was living in a premie house where the house father was on the fast track to becoming a PAM so things could have turned out very differently for me if I'd conformed more. Never was much of a conformer though. :)
Hope you are doing well. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 11:41:14 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn and Joe
Subject: A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult
Message:
Hi Joe and Robyn (good to see you here, Robyn, dear!!!0

I just have a minute, but wanted to mention that I also fit in with your stats, Joe - well, sort of. I left in 1977 because I couldn't handle the beginning of the period of increased devotion - or as they called it back then 'Rededication'. I LIKED 1976 - we didn't have to pranam, everyone was real relaxed and friendly, people weren't so obsessed with living in the ashram, and so on. I did need the strict rules when I first got involved in 1972, but I definitely grew out of them as I grew older.

BTW, I forgot who said that he/she didn't think that people leaving in the 1990's or now were as angry as former ashram premies. I don't believe this is true - I think the depth of anger among exes is about the same as it was then - some are VERY angry, and some are not (I have friends and relatives who left in the 70's and never were angry about being involved.)

I think that the extent of someone's anger depends on how involved they were, and how much they gave up for M. Some people who are just leaving now are extremely angry, especially after stifling their anger for so long.

Take care, both of you -
Katie

P.S. Robyn, Brian's fine - we have to go back today for follow-up but everything went well.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:51:49 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult
Message:
Joe:

So, I guess the theory is that when there is a let-up in repression in the cult, instead of making people more comfortable and encouraging them to stay, it actually enhances the possibility that some people will question the cult, think for themselves, and leave. I think that happened in 1976 and 1983, and if I look back on my own situation, I think that's what happened with me when I left in 1983.

This hurts me deeply. :-) Unfortunately I had this theory that one criterion for discerning good charisma is that the 'good' charismatic leader doesn't construct oppressive boundaries to exit. An alternative to your theory might be that in the non-repressive period people become more aware of the *inconsistencies* with the former situation. But the whole question reminds me a bit of the multitudinous theories about political revolution, and they all seem plausible somehow; and no real way to tell empirically which is true. (In fact, I borrowed the 'inconsistency' hypothesis from political theory.)

As for me, you could say that I left several times, or rather in several stages. The first break was in 1976 when I left LA and went back to Portland. I might have reconnected with the premie community at that time, but the contact points were sort of moving around and I couldn't keep track of phone numbers, and where programs were located, etc. I had decided before that, that the satsang thing was pretty tedious and I'd been doing a lot of painting, etc.

I had another brief interacton with the premie community in 1982, but could see that it was still unsettled (or I just caught it at another good time) and it was at this point that I sent off the letter to Maharaji, and got back some sort of nonsense about Knowledge being a fancy cure for seasickness or something. I think if he'd said he was the Messiah I might have been drawn back in, but when he soft-pedaled that whole thing it just smelled fishy.

Finally, the last vestage of attachment was dispelled by David Lane's site on the internet, and I realized he wasn't even a failed Messiah... but a pretty run-of-the-mill spiritual thug. Shortly after that I found Forum II, which helped to resolve the discontinuity between the 'community' and the leader. That is, I still had very fond memories of the community... and in many ways still do. But then, I never really experienced any heavy duty repression, and the Ashram never looked very attractive. I could barely tolerate the premie houses, as Carol will probably recall. The Argyle in 'Hollyweird', where I knew Patrick Wilson (Anon), was more the type of community that fit my comfort level. Boy was *that* a crew!

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:18:55 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: the argyle-when?? i was there! the crew i knew was
Message:
from feb to april 1976. i crashed at Tom Fernandez' apt up on the top (4th) floor. he had like 12 premies of various nationalities sleeping all over the floor of his one room apt. marcello berman and sheri lived in the next apt over. danna and tamra whitney were in the building, down on 2nd floor. verna nahulu had a n apt towards the front, also on second floor. we used to have art parties in her place, a bunch of us would gather and strip to take turns being naked art models for the rest of the sketchers. it was good artwork too. one of the artists was richard, a guy with angel curly long brown hair who excelled at painting huge canvases of mandalas. i also recal a brother who had an apt on the ground floor, at the back of the bldg who had a custom shoemaking operation running out of his kitchen, with a hot glue pot and rolls of leather and rubber instead of plates and forks. were you around then? did our paths cross in the argyle?? Tom had a silversmithing shop in his kitchen. i drew patterns for the pieces he was asked to make. a bunch of us got work as extras in the riot scene at the coliseum, during the filming of the movie '2 minute warning' thanks to some ginger- haired english brother who brought home the news of work. we were so broke we were eating off the trees, surviving on orange and grapefruit and avocados. i also remember a nude sunbathing club verna started, up on the roof. there were maybe 10 of us, who went up there together to do this. Tom's crashpad got so crowded, at one point I decided to move out into the hall and sleep in the fire escape gangway . if you were around you may have seen me.

does any of this coincide with your time there??

marcello decided to go back to denver and i went back with him in may of 76. when i came back to the city in 93, the argyle was empty, boarded up, shut down, covered in gang grafitti, riddled with bullet holes, had smoke char up the walls, bashed up plate steel front doors ( that lovely airy, light , open lobby had been closed down to a black, filthy, claustrophobic hall) and was strictly forbidden to enter, by police order. after the northridge earthquake, it was red tagged because parts of the roof had fallen off, and big x-cracks had opened up in the outside walls,in addtion to everything else that had changed about it.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:56:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca Reitano
Email: None
To: janet and Scott
Subject: The Argyle, a vague memory
Message:
We kind of vaguely crossed paths. I remember the Argyle, and Dana and Tamara Whitney. Dana and Susan Burns were traded to the Apostles from Bhole Ji's band in exchange for Colleen and I. (I think it was because Colleen and I were singing screaming rock background vocals for the Apostles behind Phil, who used to stand several feet away from the mike when we rocked out. Bhole Ji heard a demo tape the Apostles made. I think it had some devotional song I did on it with piano too, but I can't remember now.) Then Susan married 'mad dog' Phil Marriott (Apostles, Anand Band) and Dana was with Mark, the lead guitarist of the Apostles. Dana and Mark had a baby and came back to LA (not sure in what order).

After Bhole Ji's band broke up. I was in a band with Dick Park, Larry Cohen, Joannie Tannheimer, Pat Rosen and Raeanne (Tucker) Goldberg and a guy named Kevin (?), and at one point Mike Gainey from San Diego. I also used to play solo at the hall. Jiva used to play, as well as individual guys from the group. Kathy Sisler, Sally Lansdale and Bill Hawk were all playing music at the hall, Kim and Jim (two great brit musicians) and there was some big satsang hall in Hollywood (I think it was) before the whole shebang moved to Westwood to the Grange Hall, as some of the community migrated from Hollywood to other parts of town.

There were a lot of artistic folks (artists, folks in television, studio musicians, even Juno, a ventriloquist) and a lot more free thinking. I actually came BACK then instead of leaving, because of the community.

Thanks for the memories of some good people instead of some BAD trips.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:41:58 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Francesca Reitano
Subject: The Argyle, a vague memory
Message:
I moved into an apartment in Ocean Park when Pat Rosen moved out. Raeanne Goldberg was my roommate for a while. God, I haven't thought about her in a doggie's age. I wonder what she's up to. If my memory serves me correctly, Pat Rosen got into some type of healing technology, perhaps shamanism or Native American-type healing. Nice people, I agree.

And, you're totally right on, I have fond memories of great people, which goes a long way to alleviate some of those truly bad trips. I think it's one reason I hung in so long was because of the people, a fair amount with whom I'm still in contact.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:43:38 (GMT)
From: Francesca Reitano
Email: freitano@hotmail.com
To: Monmot
Subject: The Argyle, a vague memory
Message:
Monmot -- if you think you know me, drop me an e-mail. Hotmail is down today, but I should eventually get it.

I also lived in that apartment in Ocean Park with Pat, and Johnnie. I have heard through a friend that RaeAnne is back in the Bay Area, doing art therapy work. She was in the Sacramento Symphony orchestra until it folded, and played in a musical group with me in the Sacramento/Davis area for a while in the mid-80s.

A premie band that I was in (and Pat was in) practiced in that apartment in Ocean Park when Pat still lived there (after I moved in the ashram). Pat is also in touch with me, but not for a while. She was in transit and I'm sure she'll catch up with me eventually.

I also do shamanism/native american work, as well as various healing modalities (not for a living though). Also involved in Tibetan Buddhism and Buddhism in general. I mean Buddhism as in consciousness though, and not the 'guy.' Some folks tend to turn that into a religion also. Notice that neither Jesus nor Buddha wrote any books, and from the little I have read about them per se (I am more into the philosophy) they didn't set themselves up to be what folks are making them.

If you look at the Webster's definition of a cult, I think Christianity and Buddhism are right in there if practiced in a way that gets you in under the definition ...

Peace. -f

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:12:48 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Francesca Reitano
Subject: The Argyle, a vague memory
Message:
Your name rings a slight bell to me, and it's possible if we saw each other, we might recognize each other. I was in Boston for most of my heavy practicing years in DLM, but was involved somethat in the LA community after I moved there. I've taken a couple of the basic trainings in the Harner method of shamanism, and have had a soul retrievel done (with Christina Crawford of all people), and I still have a strong interest in that area. Do you know Amanda Foulger? She's not a premie, but is in a writing group that I'm in. She a practicing shaman, an incredible person, and since Harner had his stroke, she assists him in his classes.

Did you know Shawne Murphy? She lived with Raeanne and Pat Rosen, and it was through her that I came to live in the OP apt. She's in Hawaii, and unfortunately suffers from MS. Also, I remember now that you mention it that RaeAnne went to Sacramento to play in an orchestra. Strings, right? Viola or cello?

As for Buddhism/Xianity etc., I agree with you that there are cultish aspects (I went to 12 yrs. Catholic school) to them. It seems that what used to be cults become over time religions. I tend to shy away from organized anything myself, particularly after DLM.

I'll email you, so when hotmail's up, keep your spuds peeled.

Thanks

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 16:52:48 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: the argyle-when?? i was there! the crew i knew was
Message:
Janet:

Sorry to hear about the decline of the Argyle. I lived in the apartment next to Tom's, I think... although it might have been that same apartment on the third floor. I was gone by 1976. I think I was there in 1975, though I can't remember what months. I remember Marcello and Verna and Richard Levi. I knew Richard fairly well since I had started painting at that time, and went to art school for several years after leaving the cult. There was also a young woman who sang in some premie band, and I think she had a sister who came to live with her, and a guitarist/boyfriend from Oklahoma. There was also a black guy who's name I can recall who used to sing 'Stretching it Higher' at satsangs all the time, and he had a girlfriend with some terminal disease. And there was Craig and Ellie and the rest of the 'Wire and Wood' group. Wonder if they ever became famous under a different band name?

I heard from Tom Fernandex in '98 as a result of posting my 'Journey.' I might have his email still in some of my archives, but think that he has a journey himself. I believe he is in the US foreign service, and is married. Definitely an 'Ex' though. I recall he used to talk to the cockroaches, to try to convince them to give him a little space. Great guy.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:20:51 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult
Message:
Hi Joe,

Your analysis is very accurate, based on my own experience. After I was kicked out of the DECA project because I was sick, I was working in the DLM office in the ''divorce processing mill,'' with a DLM lawyer who was also in the ashram. I think I mentioned before that some couples divorcing had children...but I digress.

Then I was sent to Gainesville to recuperate from my physical breakdown. The summer of 1980, many of the ashram folks started having sex, smoking, drinking, etc.

I was so sick of Florida. I was sick of premies. In retrospect, it's interesting to note that I didn't blame Maharaji for how I was feeling about the disintegration of something I was serious about. Yet I had always allowed myself even as an ashram premie, a gopie, to get angry at Maharaji. I was pissed off when I was sent away from the project and expressed it, taking that license because of all the Krishna satsangs M had given and stories I had read that gopies: cryed with Krishna came, then laughed, and played with him, then when he left them they mourned his leaving and cried, and got angry, even. blaa, blaa, blaa

I was one confused puppy. I couldn't wait another minute in January of 1981. I just couldn't stand the stifling affect initiators satsang was. I was still sick physically. Part of me couldn't tolerate the Rules, rules, rules!! I was one of many who left the ashram in Gainesville that year. It was sort of, if Cindy left the ashram, and what a gopie she was, then, let's look at this...maybe I did some good, eh?

In 1976, I never considered leaving M, but know and remember a lot of people who did. I was in the middle of a relationship which ended in disaster, in the early stages of the dark devotional times. He trapped me with the start of this heavy devotional period. I was sick of men. I wanted to try the ashram...

When I saw M in NY in I think 1983, while I still hadn't given up on M as my master, etc., I found him boring and the premies boring, too. So I stayed away.

I actually felt guilty at one time for NOT waiting it out and leaving when M gave the word!

Love,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:57:50 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: A theory...... timing on leaving the Maharaji Cult
Message:
Hi Cynthia:

I was sent from Miami to San Francisco towards the end of September, 1980, and it was all down hill from there, although I remained in the ashram for 2.5 years after that. People weren't really leaving the ashram in SF; I think I was kind of the first of the wave, although it was a pretty decrepit group of old-timers who were still there, and no one new wanted to be in the ashram. Good for you that you left when you did.

I remember I first performed a few acts of rebellion before I left. I remember I REFUSED to go to the Maharaji Birthday Party in Miami in December, 1982. That freaked a lot of people out. I had gone to the two previous ones in Miami and HATED them.

Then they put out some big plea for money for yet another plane or maybe some stupid luxury car for Majiwagi, butd, I had had it. As ahsram housefather, I also REFUSED to give ANY money, claiming we didn't have it, and then promptly bought a new car for the ashram and bought all the guys new clothes. That felt great, too. Then I left.

Who was the Elan Vital lawyer doing the divorces so people could move into the ashram? Was it Linda Smith?

[Dear Elan Vital truth police: when you tell Linda she was mentioned here, tell her I think she's s great person and somebody I always cared about, but I'm sorry if she really did go back to the cult, like I heard she did, which was kind of inexplicable to me, after she told me Maharaji was an alcoholic sex-addict in 1986, and that she hated him, and wanted nothing more to do with him.]

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:16:10 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Good job Joe! Kinda like brother sun/sister moon
Message:
Joe- I loved your story about rebelling against the ashram rules and regs, and buying the ashram a new car and all the guys new clothes, rather than going to lards birthday party in miami..

Wasn't there a scene in Brother sun/sister moon, where they throw all the kings clothes out of the castle to the poor folks below?
(as I remember it, this was one of the few 'premie movies' that ashram premies were allowed to go to)

(What was the other movie about all the people from the insane asylum going into the town and taking it over?)

Anyway,I think that's the way it went, and your story reminds of that scene.

I always liked the rebels and hated the church ladies..

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:33:53 (GMT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Brother Sun/Sister Moon and One flew Over ...
Message:
...the Cuckoo's Nest.

The first was the story of St. Francis directed by Zeferelli, and the second starred Jack Nicholson. It was Francesco throwing his father's belongings out of the window. I was in Brighton ashram and we had an ashram outing to see it (over two nights so that satsang could continue). I recall afterwards, another ashram premie, Fabian, saying, why couldn't it be like that in real life.

Well, Maharaji, why couldn't it?

John.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:25:34 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Movie? King of Hearts? NT
Message:
f
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:24:34 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: King of Hearts? With Oliver Bates? .....nt
Message:
mm
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:49:24 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: pdconlon@yahoo.com
To: Monmot
Subject: Monmot, you never answered my paranoid question OT
Message:
Days ago when you took me to task for the anonymice thread (Sunday afternoon paranoia) you said something about a book? Who told you?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:09:53 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Oops .........OT
Message:
Sorry, I didn't realize it was a question, plus I was 'exercised' that day. :)) I didn't even know you were writing a book, but I thought you should because I like the way you write and express yourself. You're erudite and funny, an unbeatable combo as far as I'm concerned. I must've been tuned in out there in the ethers, but no one told me you were writing a book. Jeez, maybe I should become an agent, huh? Got the instincts.

As much as I loved reading Maupin, I still think you're a better writer, and you certainly have much better stories to tell--some of them seem to me to be a sort of 'decadent spirituality,' a contradiction in terms which I know I'd read in a heartbeat. (I hope that doesn't offend you--it's not meant that way.) But, seriously, if you do publish, I'll show up for a reading and signing.

And, off topic, did you ever know a guy named BJ? He did all the flowers for M's programs/events.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:43:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Maupin .........OT
Message:
Actually, I think Maupin's great skill is writing dialogue. I haven't read his latest book, but all the Tales of the City books, as well as 'Remember the Moon,' show he is really great at that. Actually, Maupin just lives a few blocks from me, and I sometimes see him buying produce or drinking coffee.

I knew BJ in Miami, where he also did lots of flowers.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 19:48:40 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Maupin .........OT
Message:
I went through a period when I inhaled all of Maupin's books. I loved them and lived in San Francisco vicariously (I love SF) while I read them. I think Patrick could do a bang-up job writing some of his stories, similar to Maupim. I used to be friends with the guy that played the perv in the PBS version.

Last I heard of BJ, he was/is living in a trailer in Ojai, supporting himself by being a psychic on one of those 1-900 lines.

Have you emailed Sheldon yet? :)) That should be interesting.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:18:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I did email Sheldon
Message:
I sent him a 'hi how are you' email, and congratulating him on landing a job at Heller. He has not responded, and if he is reading the forum, which I'm sure he is, he probably won't, considering how so many people have lambasted him and what a cult-Nazi he was. But we shall see.

Sheldon, if you are reading this, I do not bite, I am a nice guy, we all are. You don't need to be afraid.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 20:32:39 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I did email Sheldon
Message:
I hope he responds. I think most of us realize about ourselves that we would never act now the way we did way back then, and that understanding is usually afforded to others. At least that's how I function. I don't think anyone would really go after him, and I promise I won't try to seek restitution. :-))
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:16:53 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Monmot - decadent spirituality - I like that (OT)
Message:
but not unethical. Thank you. I just thought one of my email penpals here had been gossiping. Yeah, I am writing. Funny you should say Maupin because I would love to do Tales of the City that I live in and love/hate. The news today is how AIDS is once again on the rise in SF.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:30:03 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Perhaps 'Tails of the City'.....(nt/ot)
Message:
mm
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:26:59 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: King of Hearts? With ALAN bates NT
Message:
ooh baby
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:29:54 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: I had Alan, then changed it to Oliver. Honest...NT
Message:
Ooh baby to you too. You like Alan?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:36:01 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I had Alan, then changed it to Oliver. Honest...OT
Message:
Do you rember that gorgeous scene in Ken Russell's movie of D H Lawrence's ''Women in Love'' when Alan Bates and Oliver Reed wrestle in the nude?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:12:55 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Indeed I Do.........OT
Message:
I can see it now. No wonder I blended Alan and Oliver. Great movie.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:19:09 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Oliver.........OT
Message:
Reed died during the filming of ''Gladiator'' and was computerized in. IMHO the two of them were the only Brit actors who were sexy. Remember Alan in Zorba? Yummy.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:28:58 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Alan Bates OT
Message:
I saw a very strange Western movie with Alan Bates after not seeing him in anything since the premie approved King of Hearts.
It was called Silent Tounge. River Phoenix was in it but his part didn't do him a lot of credit. Alan Bates was very good though as a crazed Irishman.
rent at your own risk I liked it but then I like dark movies usually.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:46:39 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Alan Bates OT
Message:
Me too. He's a treat to watch acting even as an old man. That twinkle in his eye. I'll rent the movie - two hours of mindless bliss for $4 beats 28 years of mindless agony for $40,000.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:54:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Alan Bates OT
Message:
well it's not exactly mindless bliss but if you like him you will like this. I just checked there are a few reviews on Amazon.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:57:33 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Alan Bates OT
Message:
I'll try it. I also like heavy movies as long as there's at least one good guy who kills all the bad guys.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:06:35 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Alan Bates as Gulliver
Message:
There was an excellent serial on PBS a couple years ago called Gulliver's Travels, in which Alan Bates plays an unemployed Welsh schoolteacher and meets up with Sinead Cusack (gorgeous herself, and married to Jeremy Irons in real life, my other sexiest Brit actor) and they have a torrid affair and travel up to remotest Scotland in a car. It was delightful and Alan Bates is sexy as ever even in advancing middle age.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 08:29:33 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Joy, Alan Bates as Gulliver (OT)
Message:
I wanted to mention that one but couldn't remember the name. I knew you would know it. The other day when you mentioned Irons in your email I thought blech and couldn't think what to say.

Irons is too bony and airy. I know you don't like body-builders but what about nice slightly plump and down-to-earth ones like Bates? And Alan is a much plainer and nicer name than Jeremy. That's a spoilt moggie's name.

Did not know Sinead was Jem's main squeeze. She was in another PBS Mystery series as a pathologist wasn't she? Lovely woman.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:17:20 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 1983
Message:
Joe, Your theory interests me greatly. I had some really heavy stuff going on in my life in '83 when my a dear friend of mine wanted to kill himself and I wanted to tell him why his life was so important, but I couldn't. But it was also the time that the ashrams were closing. It was also about the time that M killed this bicyclist in India. It was about the time you decided to leave the ashram.

My crises happened maybe January or February '83. I posted awhile ago, but I will repost it.

'Dear Marianne, Believe me I was not trying to be cruel. I am inept and I made the wrong choice of words. Please don't stop posting here. But while we are on the subject let me tell you a story of my own. In 1983 I was living with my parents again and going to the University. Some childhood friends of mine, two brothers lived down the road. They still lived with their parents. Did drugs. Still lived in the hippie era. Both brothers wee prone to psychotic episodes from time to time. They were seeing a psychiatist and taking medication. I liked them alot. Their house was sort of a party spot and friends came over there to party alot. They knew I had knowledge. I tried to be in Holy Name, even though I was usually stoned at the time. I tried to give satsang. This led to some rather cosmic raps about alternate states of awareness etc. The younger brother, Rich, was if anything a born-again Christian which he got off a Christian network on the ham radio. One night I bought a bottle of whiskey for a girl who was going to pay me back latter when she arrived. We were sitting in the other brothers room when Rich came in looking obviously agitated and uncomfortable. He wanted a few shots of whiskey. I said 'No this isn't my bottle.' He started offering me outrageous sums of money if I would just give him a shot. Everybody was asking him 'Rich what's wrong, why are you acting like this?' He wouldn't say, he just wanted a shot of whiskey. So finally I gave him a shot and then another, hoping he would open up a little and tell us what was wrong. Finally he blurted out 'All I can say is God really messed up when he made this world!'. I was taken aback by his anger directed towards God seeing as he was a born-again-Christian. We were trying to ask him why and he would occasionally let out with 'What are we doing here? Why did God make us? Why are we alive? All I know is that God really messed up when he made this world.' I thought to myself 'What a perfect lead in for satsang.' But I never really gave good satsang, so I said a silent prayer 'Maharaji, please let me give satsang to Rich'. Then I started saying 'All this is an illusion, none of this is real, even the problems that you think are so great are not real. What true reality is is ...... '. Then I froze. I was trying to express what true reality was but nothing came. I was looking for some satsang to just pop in from somewhere but none
came. Someone else piped in about why they thought life was worth living. Then everyone had their turn telling Rich why he should keep on living. I did Holy Name hoping to get some inspiration for what to say to Rich but none came. Much later, when we noticed that Rich wasn't in the room we went looking for him. He was in the bathroom and we wondered whether we should break down the door or not. Then he came out. He had a bulge in his pants pocket which looked like his .22 pistol. 'Rich what were you doing in there?'. He just pushed himself past us and we
followed him into his room, pinned him to the bed and took his .22 away from him. Meanwhile his brother had hid all the guns in the house and called the Police. The Police came and put Rich in hand-cuffs and sat him down in a chair and talked with him for a very long time trying to calm him down. Finally he seemed reasonable. The Police took off the hand-cuffs after he promised not to try anything. He took his medication. His dad made an appointment for Rich with the Psychiatrist on Monday. We thought everything was alright then. I was not there the following day. Rich snuck off and got a bag of qualudes (for courage) and a .357 magnum from the local gun store. He then went to a loft above the garage and shot himself in the head. His brother finally found him and they called an ambulance.
He wasn't dead yet. He was in a coma. His friends still came to the house but it wasn't exactly a party atmosphere any more. I felt like I had totally failed him. I was a premie. I should know what the meaning of life is. I should know 'why we are alive'. But when the chips were down, I could not say anything. I did not know what to say. I was a total fake, a total farce.
After all these years with knowlege, I was still no closer to realizing the meaning of life than I had been. I went to the University on Monday, but I was just going through the motions. All I could think about was that Rich was lying someplace in a Hospital hangling on to life by the slenderest thread. In fact he could be dying right now. I had a job interview that day. I did not want to go, but the college placement service imposed
severe penalties on students who did not show for their interviews. I must have come off as very morose and depressed but I did not want that job anyway. It was like there was a big dark cloud hanging over everything.
The days went by. I thought that maybe I should pray for Rich's life, after all Maharaji tells us how very important this life is. But I wasn't sure that Maharaji was the deity I should be praying to anymore. So I said prayers to whatever was out there. But I kept hearing something like 'what would you give? what would you give for Rich's life?'. Finally I said 'alright, I will give away my premiehood. I don't really want it anyway. I am a complete failure at being a premie.' After a third operation, the doctors removed a bone fragment from Rich's head that was putting pressure on the brain. Then he starting regaining consciousness. He spent a long time in the hospital and then a long time in the psychiatric hospital. When he finally came home he had a big depression in the front of his head, under the skin. Later it was filled in with a metal plate so it does not look quite so bad now. He is alive now. You can talk to him and he is intelligible. He spends a lot of his time sleeping. He still does drugs. He has had no more psychotic episodes. My practice of knowledge just went into a downward spiral and I got more and more angry and reckless. I wrote a letter to Maharaji, explaining all that had happened. I got no reply. I went to a program in Chicago in the summer of '83, but nothing he said seemed relevant. He took a few questions from the audience, but there were too many people standing up to ask questions for him to notice me. I wrote him a letter suggesting that the relationship between him and me was maybe not so healthy, considering that he was always ignoring me.
John Horton came around and I had a talk with him. He suggested that in domestic cases where one partner says that the other is abusing him it is often the other way around. So maybe I was abusing Maharaji. He also said that I should not be practicing satsang if I wasn't enjoying it, service if I wasn't enjoying it or meditation if I wasn't enjoying it. So I took what he said at face value and stopped practicing knowlege. I wondered if this was what it felt like to get booted out of the organization.So Marianne, now is you chance to get your revenge on me. YOU tell ME what I should have done, what I should have said to Rich to show him that life was worth living. I haven't a clue even in hindsight. '

David

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:05:50 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: 1983--- parallels
Message:
i had no idea the ashramies were being put thru such excruciating times at that point. i had been locked behind the walls in a mental hospital from october to april, 81 to 82, and had been out of touch since mid august, so i didnt know any of this. its amazing to compare. when i got out, i renewed my contact with the ashram in houston for 3 months, then left for fort lauderdale at first chance to escape. i had about one month of respite, then my sister paid for me to fly out to her place in los angeles. she wanted me to meet a deprogrammer, which failed, insofar as it didnt make me renounce knowledge, but what i learned, got all ensnared with the murderous hatred i was conceiving for my father's getting my son away from me, and i had nightmares of figuring out ways to poison MJ in the next darshan line i could go through...
i left my sister's in november of 82,on a bus to denver, intending to settle in. but my family in houston would not forward me the three months of disability checks that were piling up on their counter, believing that they could force me to get a job if they didnt. so i was forced to spend my last 90 bucks to bus back down to their place, walked in, grabbed my checks off the counter, and headed back to the city, thinking i knew where to go.but just in that short time, since i had left in july, i discovered, to my utter disorientation, that everything had changed in my absence. i asked a taxi to drive me to the guys ashram, where i had visited just in july, and was baffled when complete strangers lifted the shades and didnt know what i was talking about. he then dropped me off at a premie doctor's house i had stayed at, who was driving to miami for MJ's birthday party, so i took that side trip with him and 2 other premies. once going and once after the program, we had twwo brushes with death on the roads. going down I-10 in the dead of night, the driver hit the brakes and they locked and we spun a complete 180° in the dark. thank god there was no traffic.i remember nothing of the program. i saw my kids father again, the same i had escaped houston and the psychiatric system with, in july, the same guy who put me on the plane to l.a. in august to my sister's. driving away from the last night of the program, a psychotic premie girl we had brought, who had blinded herself years before (i had known her in new york in 73) was getting more and more agitatied in the back seat. we finally stopped on the shoulder of the causeway and get out, to try to decompress the vibe. she threw open her door on the back drivers side and was about to stride straight out into 6 lane two way traffic. no one was looking at her but me, and i was stuck in the car in my seatbelt! no one could hear me scream over the roar of nighttime high speed traffic. she was headed, blind, straight into the cars. and suddenly she ran head-on into a traffic signpost and it smacked her back from reaching the driving lane....in retrospect, something in me wants to observe that maharaji sure is a jealous little fuck, ain't he? he doesn't like it when people start to pull away and do their own thing, does he?? if he can't have you, he isnt gonna let anyone else have you, either! but he didn't succeed in taking my life, or the girl's, or our little party's on I-10. but i think he sure as hell tried to.anyway, at the conclusion of the event, the kid's father wished me well, and he firmly put me on the bus back to denver.
so i landed back in denver on dec 15 1982 with a thousand dollars in my pocket in uncashed checks, no winter clothes, greyhound lost my luggage, and 9 months of psych and a deprogrammer in my head.
i knew it was a dark time for me. i had no idea it was so dark a time for you! I spent all of that winter and spring holding off the unbearable pressure to committ suicide. i tried overdosing on otc sleeping pills. I slept for three days, but no harm done. fantasized a round robin of either killing my father, my son or myself, to break the unbearable tension. went out for tortured, freezing walks in the 20° below cold in kung fu shoes and thin clothes, up and down the alleys at 3 am. went to the 7-11 and bought sara lee brownies, hersheys choc milk, m&m's and the latest issue of OMNI magazine and went home and glutted myself in escapism until the sun came up. accepted rides with the newspaper delivery vans and passed the time in the dark, predawn hours, illegally driving the van up the icy roads, while the guy hopped out to load the vending machines every two blocks. the news anchors became my best freinds. the tv went on at dusk and off at dawn. and still the agony and the pull to take my life wouldnt let up.on march 15th of 1983, i gave in to it. i set up my will. i got pills, a blade and an electrical cord. i wrote all of my suicide letters to each person in my life. when I finished the final one, i intended to take all of the pills at once, take the blade and cut my wrists, and then plug in the wall cord and grab the leads with opposit hands and stop my heart. if that didnt work, i was gonna raise the leads with my hands to my temples and stop my brain.
a voice from the tv down the hall arrested my attention at the moment i had meant to proceed. something about it compelled me to leave my room and go find it. i think it saved my life. it led to my meeting and going to work for federico peņa during his campaign for mayor of denver. i threw myself into it. got addicted to coffee and valium to get up and go down. he won and assumed office, and one morning the terrible suicide din in my head was silent. i kept expecting it back, but the peace held, and i slowly and cautiously emerged from my personal winter into the painful thaw of spring. i later wrote peņa a letter, thanking him for saving my life, and commented that his birthday was the Ides of March , the day when the lion and the lamb make their transition. (in like a lion, out like a lamb). i remembered what seemed to be a conversation with a voicn my head, perhaps an angel, that had been with me ever since i first courted suicide as a solution. it was a serious and benevolent Presence, that had stayed at my left shoulder, throughout, saying 'if it is too much and you wish to Cross Over, just let go, and I will take you across', and i had spent many a bleak hour,hanging on by my figurative fingernails to the cliff face over the abyss, clinging, shutting my eyes, fightng it off, waiting to be saved from it. in the end, i shook my head with difficulty and informed whoever it was that, no, i'd stay on. if i left now, i'd never find out how the story ended, never see my son grow up, and come back to me. and i grimly hung on.
like you, i also committed an act of defiance in support of me and not MJ, that summer. I had my own apartment, now. no asshole roommates to blow it out from under me, by using the rent on going to festivals. one summer day i opened my door to get some airflow in, and barefoot, went down to get the mail. then stepped out the front door to feel the day. saw some premies across the street and crossed over to see what was up. turned out there was a car full of em passing thru on their way to miami for guru puja. their 4th member had opted out. did i want a ride, fully paid? if i wanted to go, i had to hop in, right now. no going home for my shoes, to shut the door,get my keys, purse, I D, nothing. come right now or we're leaving. I was incredulous. i looked across the street to my windows. i looked down at my bare feet. i started to say something and the guy revved the engine and said 'okay. we gotta go! see ya! jai satchitanand!!' honked and gunned off for the highway. i walked back to my apartment and scoffed at what had just been asked of me. no way, josé! not this time! no more! after what i went through since the last festival??? forget it, buddy.
as i say in another post i put here yesterday, it was right around this time that i just lost my taste for videos and nightly satsang. i went across the street to the prem rose inn, trying gamely to find that old time feeling, but it was so fakey and so bleak, i just quit after two times. even when my premie friends tried to get satsang going, it would be a buzzkill that left all of us feeling uncomfortable and claustrophobic, like we would much rather be somewhere else, and were anxious to change the subject to somethng else more immediate, that we were really into, now.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:10:27 (GMT)
From: D_Thomas
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: 1983--- parallels
Message:
Janet, You must live a very interesting life. I read your journey and some of your other biographical posts. Wow! Are you sure your not making it up? How can anyone's life have so much going on, so many disasters? I really do believe you.

Is it more peaceful now? Have things settled down?

I never was in the ashram though. I figured I wouldn't last a week anyway.

Do you really think that M will try to knock you off if you try to leave him? That sounds like kap's story of being pinned to the floor while the Mahatmas were outside trying to assassinate him. It could be true, but it also has all the earmarks of paranoid fantasy.

David

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:59:54 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: 1983--- parallels and paranoia--actually, ..
Message:
i didn't feel paranoid. it was more of that magical, mystical thinking: that 'guru maharaji knows me. knows my every thought, every move, every confusion', which would be an aspet of the companion thought of believing that we all had him with us, 'within inside'. i think that, coupled with all the damnation and rotten vegetable warnings, put in my deep subconsious to expected some kind of apocalyptic tragedy to manifest, if i made strident moves to determine my own life again.
looking back from here, i can see that what was just happenstance, seemed to me at the time like i was being pursued by a jealous, all- knowing, all powerful, supernatural figure, who wasnt gonna let me win---but i was determined to get to my goal, no matter what he was bent on.
Having just been stripped of my naivete, thru my experience in the hospital and my family,i refused to let anything prevent me from being me. i couldn't trust anything. i shut off my emotional innocence and functioned on brute reflex to get where i intended to go.
all that crap about 'listening to your heart' was code, for 'be a sucker while I manipulate you' and i had been suckered once already, by my family tricking me into the hospital for my trust.I fought my way against the current after that, using nothing but my will, and not letting anyone cajole me, using those tactics again.
I am well familiar with paranoia. I didnt feel it in those particular circumstances, but i do have vast reservoirs of it, in totally irrational places in my psyche today, that are undermining my ability to just live. i know it comes from the cult. its slippery stuff. i wish i had some bradshaw type exercises to do, to get to it, and get it up and out. maybe i can invent some for myself. its something i need to really work thru.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 05:52:34 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: David - that's paranoia
Message:
We all have a bit of it at first. But the Rev Rawat ain't no mafia don - I hope.
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 23:59:10 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: D_Thomas
Subject: Wow, quite a story....
Message:
That was an intense thing to go through!! I just moved out of the ashram and left the cult; I didn't have to deal with anything like that! Thanks for sharing that story.

It's just so amazing that when knowledge didn't work, when Maharaji couldn't be who he said he was to us, when the whole thing was demonstrated to us to be a sham, we blamed ourselves, or at least many of us did, for those failures and not Maharaji. Thanks for that example, and I'm glad you got out of it okay. Take care.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:12:15 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: my same ole answer - into the 90's Joe
Message:
I watched and experienced the behavior of the premies. In my personal relationships with them as well as at the events.

It got to me. I mean, who was kidding who these people were often mean, trite, only cared about getting their M fix and their own gratification and not one iota about anything else.
That's how it started to be for me anyway, with the premies.

This in and of itself in the general population is not something that would make me leave society, become a hermit, whatever. Human nature is what it is and i have been quite selfish as well at times.

But in a group who claim to have some kind of special spiritual gift and who constantly called me up for donations and what not to the one who gave the gift, well that was too much.
And the events that were masquerading as 'conventions' of some sort were total bullshit I actually preferred when it was all goofy and out front in the old days. At least you knew what you were dealing with. (a little more at least)
And so I left the so-called gift and the so-called giver. and good riddance to all that.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:56:40 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A theory...... glasnost
Message:
yes, I just left during the latest glasnost. Chuck kept saying it was the same for the Russians. When they had glasnost all the ordinary people who had been formerly oppressed by the Communist Party suddenly said, ''To hell with it.''
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:36:28 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: on leaving the Maharaji Cult
Message:
I stayed in a few extra years hoping that world peace was a real possibility, even though the writing was on the wall. This was a trap I put myself in, thinking that there must have been something real that attracted me, a catch22 correct.

The word on the street by 1980 was that Rawatt wasn't the sole conduit for knowledge, spurred by their family feuding. People tolerated the leftover rhetoric of Lord shit in a context of freer lifestyles.

I know the ashram was different but I suppose it was ultimately a question of not being able to last forever knowing that M wasn't the single, final conduit of knowledge. When it hit you, it still took time due to the mental complex of bs based around believing incarnation concepts.

It was obvious for several years that mahatmas and such were having sex. I didn't make assumptions about what went on, mostly because M was so rich he could have whatever he wanted. There was a whole lore of do whatever you want that ashramers were insulated from.

You're prob right that the free quality gave license to go, but there was a delay from inside out. Your dates may work well for ashramers tho.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:04:06 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe, on leaving the Maharaji Cult
Message:
You left during glasnost for the ashramees. The latest glasnost was for the non-ashramees. They'll be leaving in hordes soon.

PS I have seen very clearly from watching the exes here that the ashramees were the most betrayed premies of all and are thus the most angry and rightly so. But the times they are a changing and the new exes waiting in the wings are not nearly as pissed more like they are bored and miffed that they wasted so much time.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:32:24 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Bored and miffed???????
Message:
Jeez, Patrick, you read any of the latest exers???? What about SB, Brian S, or Bin Liner or me for that matter. You didn't sound too bored and miffed either.

Me, I sat and looked at the beautiful blue sky and wondered if I would ever feel good again without Maharaji. I was so fucking angry, sick with the unbelievable betrayal of the fat fuck, that I feared for my sanity. It was like a physical blow to the gut.

Okay, okay, then the fun started! Love Lesley

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:37:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Lesley
Subject: actually I was bored and miffed
Message:
My real anger didn't surface until I came here and read about M's history and the awful things he had either done or let happen.
And then I realized what a sucker I had been. and got good and angry at HIM as well as the original reasons I had for leaving. and you are right Lesley, then the wild rumpus begins!

What fun. Learning how to set boundaries, learning how to deal with anger, learning how to function in society w/o my special little secret that made me better than others without 'knowledge'. and so on.

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 18:31:51 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Yeah, I understand, thanks, NT
Message:
lol
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:54:33 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: actually I was bored and miffed...Selene
Message:
Hi!

Everything you said was right on. My re-entry into the regular world was a bizarre feeling. I hadn't been to a bar in so many years, I didn't know how to act. I had that superior ''I know something you don't know'' attitude toward all non-premies.

It's interesting how similar in some ways, but also very individual the process of leaving M is. And I certainly don't diminish anyone who was never an ashram resident. I know a married couple who had 3 kids, and they hung on all the way from the early 70s to the present.

Btw, My screen looks like an earthquake is happening right now. I don't think it's my monitor, I've been experiencing this only while online. Somebody probably hit a telephone pole down the road or something.

I gonna go offline for a while, see if this clears up.

Bye,
Cynthia

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:59:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: I was and am so un street-wise afterwards
Message:
Some of my re-entry stories are quite funny in a sick sort of way. And bars! Talk about learning the hard way.
after all only the lowest form of individual hung out there huh?
(except of course at hotel lounges after the events)

hey my screen looks like that too! I just got glasses of all things and can't see at all except for books. Maybe someone is trying to tell me something.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:46:24 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: FA's ! Runamuck's outing a fellow forum member !!!
Message:
It was obvious for several years that mahatmas and such were having sex.

Look Runamuck, I know you're a rat, but this is reaching new lows. Such has just been through the emotional wringer here and now, KNOWING FULL WELL HE'S GONE, you have chosen to 'out' him on his personal life.

'What about the moral...'

Indeed.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:04:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: God damn you, Gerry!
Message:
I was going to say that! From now one, I'm not going to court until all the morning jokes are done.
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:06:38 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: God damn you, Gerry!
Message:
Sorry I can't comment on your criticisms due to my nondisclosure agreement w/Maharaji but you'll respect that won't you?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:55:01 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Unpack the sarcasm and make your point, huh?
Message:
I thought you were going to avoid me, Run. But, anyway, what's your point? Are you saying that Dettmers isn't to be trusted because of his non-disclosure agreement? Sure, I can understand that viewpoint. But is that it? Is that what you're saying because we could talk about it if it is. Hell, Dettmers can talk about it too, if you like. Ask him.

Funny thing, though, it sounds like you're trying to bully and pressure him into doing something he's not currently comfortable doing, in this case, breaching the agreement. But aren't you the guy who always championed respecting exes' boundaries and not pressuring them to say or do anything they're not comfortable with? Wasn't that the whole purpose of your secret, ex-premie preemie forum, the Recent Ex page, where no one challenges anyone an things? So look at you now!

Pretty hypocritical, aren't you, Run?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 03:19:51 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: my thoughts are spelled out in Such/Key thread nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:10:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: You call THIS 'spelled out'?
Message:
Here's what you said:

add'l important discussion of this issue
geez i forgot to mention that my name is private as part of a nondisclosure agreement with Maharaji - how silly of me to have forgotten this important faq

you can respect that can'tcha? a fella has to stay in biz you know - what would clients think knowing i betrayed a usually-thought-to-be unenforcable legal agreement with someone merely for being a false messiah who brought suffering to countless thousands of people through his greed and self-aggrandizement - some markets are very sensitive to those kinds of things

moral of add'l
well at least let's not discuss whether or not confidentiality agreements are enforcable - after all we actually have lawyers to forget these things for us, don't we

final clumsy appendicitis
i mean there are things that we just shouldn't talk about on here and i'd just hate to see them mentioned - think of all the peops who might join in - one day, nice little clubhouse; the next, sprawling cyber-village - we need our heroes and leaders

Sorry Run, but I don't see anything 'spelled out' at all here. Where? No, what I see is more typical Run bullshit. It's got all the signature characteristics: oblique, thick, paranoid, fixeated on imaginary power structures and cliques and both bitter AND sour. No one ever wanted to form a 'club house' more than you did, Run. That's what your pathetic 'Recent Ex' Forum was all about, remember? So what's the problem? Doesn't anyone want to play in your secret little sandbox anymore? God, THAT's a surprise!

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:32:51 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: okLordJim, ask4me2spellitout uptop u will receive
Message:
but typical bullshit?

hypocrite?

it's mahatma jim

god's gift to atheism

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 13:28:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: You getting a little aphasiac on us, Run? (nt)
Message:
dddd
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:59:11 (GMT)
From: Steve Quint
Email: the_avenger55@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Jim
Message:
In my opinion about 10% of the posts on the forum make any sense, and I think I'm being generous.

I applaud your attempts to get people to make sense. I just hope that the dearth of content here is a sign that the effects of the guru are less than they used to be, but somehow I don't think this is true.

Steve

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 16:30:36 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: i'm in my mind again Mahatma Jim nt
Message:
mahatma jim
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:21:58 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: To Jim---OT
Message:
Jim:

I just sent you an email about Deirdre O'Donohue. She was found dead on Suday at her home in Santa Monica.

I know you were a fan of hers like I was, so I thought you'd be inerested.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:36:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Oh no
Message:
Monmot,

that's terrible. No, I'm not at home. I'm at the office (back to court in a few minutes). What happened?

Well, I'll read the email later.

Shit!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:16:21 (GMT)
From: janet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: who was she. whatd she do? this happened blocks ..
Message:
away from me. tell me.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:53:45 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: janet
Subject: Deirdre O'Donohue used to be OT
Message:
a deejay at KCRW until Chairman Ruth fired her in '91. She's an incredible DJ who played fabulouse music and, essentially, she was the one who brought KCRW into the pop world, and given KCRW's stature in the music world, that was no small feat. She had a big following and when she was fired, there was a cry heard 'round the world from her fans. So she was brought back, but she left again shortly thereafter. She went on to KMET, and then she, was until her death on Sunday, a deejay at KSLX. Jim used to live in SM and I lived in Venice for 20 years (still live in LA, though), and we were both ardent fans of hers.

She didn't show up to work on Sunday, and all phone calls went unanswered, so KSLX mgmt sent the police over. They found her dead in her house, with no evidence of foul play. The coroner's ordered an autopsy. She as 52, so she must have died from natural causes.

There's an artile in the obituary section of the L.A. Times today telling basically what I just told you.

Do you listen to KCRW? Great music. KPFK has the great news.

Monmot

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:47:41 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To just 'walk away.'
Message:
I recently read Gregg's excellent 'Journey' and it raised an issue that I have contemplated off and on for a long time about why I stayed in the Maharaji cult for as long as I did, despite being miserable, lonely, frustrated, and having no respect for the leader of the cult, except what I was told to believe about him.

Gregg said that he was living in the ashram in Denver, and one day, while walking down the street, he realized he could just leave. He realized he could just walk away from the ashram and the cult and it would be okay. He went out on his own, got a room some place and started over.

What was it that kept me from 'walking away?' Certainly it wasn't because I was having a good time. I wasn't, at least for the last five years I was in the cult. For one thing, I was exhausted trying to rationalize all the things in the cult that violated my values, and also rationalzing why I was not happy, why I was so frustrated in living a very truncated life, and also repressing how I felt nothing for Maharaji, and, in fact, found him and what he did repulsive, for the most part. And I also had to rationalize the obvious, that Maharaji wasn't doing anything he said he was going to do when I first got involved with him.

Not only were very few people even interested in knowledge or him, he was doing precious little to 'spread' knowledge, peace, whatever, and was instead, just getting richer himself. All I could do was think there was something wrong with my own perception and that my mind was just engaging in doubt, or perhaps the problem was 'us' and our inability to do 'service' properly. But then, he told us we couldn't do anything without his 'grace' so it was all up to him anyway. This was a catch-22.

And still, I stayed. Still, I tried harder, doubled my 'effort,' prayed for grace, listened to satsang, kissed Maharaji's feet at every opportunity and maybe sublimated by eating a lot of sugar.

Part of this was because I was scared shitless by the fear Maharaji put into us about doubting or leaving. Partly was maybe my accepting Maharaji's commandment to not listen to my own doubts, which were just obvious judgements about what was going on.

But how did Gregg get to the point of thinking 'I can leave' and not think he was doubting, giving up, 'moving next to a cesspool' (as Maharaji told us in an ashram meeting in Miami in 1980), and throwing away the chance of a thousand lifetimes to know and serve the Perfect Master, repulsive as he was? How did that happen? Gregg? Anybody else get that?

Was it just better self-esteem? What?

Thanks for the comments.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 03:49:44 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: To just 'walk away.'
Message:
Hi Joe,
Gregg's story of leaving is different from yours because in Greggs journey, he lets us know that he got knowledge the day after his intro program, and he lived in communities that were small and had light and breezy satsang.

You were immersed early in the millenium and you were smart enough, yes, smart enough, to really hear what was being said.
You had lots of the most devotional satsang and got to a lot of events, regional and all the ones with the lord himself.
Remember, we were all so hyped up on the whole glorious unfolding
pagent, and there was a lot to do, while Gregg was off in a remote corner of premiedom.

the lord would always remind us to 'bet everything on the perfect master' and 'dont try to score points with this world'.
He was doing something, he knew reality, he had the crown, he was super confident, you were too smart to just not hear all he said and just casually stroll off on a whim like Gregg.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:15:37 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: To just 'walk away.'
Message:
I had a dream the other night that illustrated just how much I bought into the 'mind' stuff. In the dream I was trying to unwrest my mind from Maharaji and holy name and couldn't do it. So I just surrendered back to him. That's really how it was in my brain, back then. I woke up feeling so great that my mind is free and able to fix on pretty much whatever I want it to without any of that ridiculous duality.

Maybe that's how it was for other people too. Fear of unhooking the mind from that gerbil wheel, fear of the rotten vegetables. We were indoctrinated into believing that people without knowledge were suffering so much in their minds. FUnny thing is it isn't that way at all. In fact, the more control people have over their lives the happier they seem to be.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 23:06:04 (GMT)
From: Francesca Reitano
Email: freitano@hotmail.com
To: Joe
Subject: Started with walking away from 'shram 1st
Message:
Joe:

I guess I 'walked away' in stages, and even outing myself on this page after years of being 'gone' is another phase of walking away. I'm sure that many of us did not make a clean break. Probably like straws on a camel's back, or becoming undeluded in stages.

I knew that the ashram life was wrong for me in 1981, until I finally moved out in 1982, and didn't really look at whether it was wrong for everyone else. Even the process of moving out was slowed down by an illness that I'm sure had deep psychological implications as well, along with the practical implications of burning the candle at both ends for so many years.

I had/have so many good friends and even family still involved, even after I wanted nothing to do with M that it was hard for me to just say -- unequivocally -- that it was a total bunch of hoss turds.

I had to get to the point where it not only gave me the heebies, but to take the leap to see that people I loved were still gazing fondly at hoss turds. I did make this leap, but it took many years to get to the point that I am at now. Even though I left the 'shram in 1982, and basically left the trip and started doing other forms of meditation around 1985-86.

Not only that, but I left twice! The first time, in defiance, I stayed with Bhole Ji. Divine Light Mission not only came and forcibly seized our musical equipment (orchestrated by Bob Michler), but sent premies to try to convince us not to 'leave' and then actually had people doing security surveilance from a car parked near the apartment complex in Thousand Oaks where the band then was living. Then in 76, when everything loosened up a bit, I came back.

Yes, I will have to think even more about how this all happened. Another idea for my journey, perhaps?

I mean, I think, to follow ANYONE like we followed MJ requires us to loosen a few screws, and then many, over a period of years. Most people do not let themselves go all at once, nor can they come back all at once. Then we have to find some screws and start putting them back in again. Oh there, I feel better now!

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 23:22:36 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca Reitano
Subject: Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing?
Message:
I think others have reported about the whole 'take over' of the Bohle Ji camp. Were you part of Blue Aquarius? Did you stay with Bohle Ji/Mata Ji until 1976?
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:14:57 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing?
Message:
I joined the band in about 1974. I may be fuzzy on the exact date, but I do know that Mata Ji, Guru Charanand Ji and Bal Baghwan Ji were also around (Camp Joan Meier), Ventura County. Within a short while after I joined the band (another premie and I were shipped from the Apostles, in exchange for sending Susan Burns and Dana TO the Apostles--a trade), Bal Bhagwan Ji had slapped Raja Ji in the face with a shoe over his marriage to Claudia, and Mata Ji came back from MJ's residence in tears, with her glasses bend out of shape (halfway broken). I remember her car driving up the hill, and a whole strange feeling that a lot was going on that we didn't know about.

I was basically caught in the cross fire of the family squabble for over a year. It wasn't until after we moved from the camp to Thousand Oaks that MJ married Marolyn. MJ asked all premies to 'shape up or ship out.' Most of us band members said 'ship ahoy!' Everyone told us to leave Bhole Ji. Except MJ himself, who came to see us at our apartment complex and just gave his usual cosmic satsang.

I am skipping a lot of details, but we eventually moved to Malibu and almost got a recording contract with A & M records. After we didn't get the contract, the wheels started to fall off the cart. At some point DLM (which either held all of the visas for the premies from out of the US, or tore a page out of their visas and kept that page -- I can't really remember now) commanded all the foreigners to go home. Those who stayed had to go through some machinations to avoid problems with immigration. Immigration came looking for some of them, but they had gone up to Oregon, including a beautiful trip to Crater Lake, and came back. Most went back eventually of their own accord.

The rest of us moved to Venice, and we were about 20 something members. Bal Baghwan Ji came over for satsang, and Mata Ji was around. They had a residence first in Malibu and then Pacific Palisades. Then they all went back to India. I didn't want to accept Bal Baghwan Ji as my guru either. So when I heard that Bhole Ji had succumbed to an 'arranged' marriage, I knew that he was no longer neutral, and was marching to the beat of BBJ's drum.

I was in limbo for a while, and eventually came back to the premie community.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:40:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: That's quite a story
Message:
Francesca,

Do you know anything about a story, true or not, that Maharaji and/or Raja Ji sent a few WPC goons to harrass, beat up and scare BJ and Blue Aquarius out of town? That's what's been reported here. The joke circulating then, supposedly, was that this really was a 'Band on the Run'. Know anything about that?

What instrument did you play, by the way?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:33:47 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: More on Bhole Ji's band
Message:
I saw that 'band on the run' story in someone's journey, and it is not accurate. I know, because I was in the band then. A few WPC goons came one night (when we were living in an apartment complex in Thousand Oaks) and forciby took our equipment. Our roadies (Larry Hart and another brother) that were at the rehearsal studio said that it was done by force, and they were physically overpowered and had to let them take it. Supposedly Raja Ji, the WPC (La security ashram premies), the LA community coordinator and Bob Michler orchestrated it. They said that because we would not listen to MJ and the 'Mission' and were munmuts (owoooooooo, munmut of the north), the equipment belonged to DLM, and they were seizing it. They a car parked near our apartment complex and 'staked us out' for a while. I have no idea what the point was except to try to intimidate us, but after they took our equipment, there wasn't much else they could do, and they eventually gave it up. It just convinced us even more that DLM was a wierdo cult.

By the time I joined the band (the spring after Millenium) the Blue Aquarius moniker had been dropped, probably in connection with the dismal record sales on the Blue Aquarius album done on Stax records. Because Millenium was supposed to be such a big event, Stax thought the record would sell because of the connection to the Millenium festival and even sent one of its recording artists to perform there. The poor guy was really out of place there, and I think his performance was poorly attended.

There was no 'band on the run.' A Danish premie and several of the British premies that had stayed around after the 'Mission' had commanded them to return to their countries of orgin had to leave town for a week or so because the 'Mission' had started some trouble for them with immigration. They came back and the band played on for a while. We lived in a house that was falling apart near Zuma beach (Ranch Shangri-la). After we had to vacate the house (there was sewage spouting up through the ivy on the front lawn), it was bought by 'the Band' and several famous folks recorded albums in the same room we used to practice in. Basically the owner was letting it fall apart and as long as the health authorities let us stay, he was collecting the rent. BJ's residence was nearby in Malibu.

BJ moved the res to Pacific Palisades and the band moved to Venice and Culver City, in several different houses. BBJ used to give satsang at one of the houses and at the rehearsal hall.

Bhole Ji eventually went back to India, and Mata Ji and Bal Bhagwan Ji set up an arranged marriage (so I heard, because BJ wrote a letter to one of my friends saying he had to go through with it). That was the end of the band, that was now down to about 20 people or less. The Brits eventually went back home, because the music scene there was much nicer than LA (the music scene in LA in the 70s was dismal -- disco duck).

I wrote songs, sang, played guitar and piano. We had a bunch of songwriters and would do vocal and musical arrangements on each other's songs. It was heinz 57 varieties. I can see why no one would give us a recording contract.

In 1976 it seemed like a 'kinder gentler' cult and I was stupid enough to get involved again, and eventually moved into the LA ashram. Knowledge lite won't last long. The only way to get people to gve up all their money is to have MJ be god incarnate.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:33:58 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: More on Bhole Ji's band
Message:
Hi Francesca
This danish premie in your story , is his name Knud Bjørnø ?
and if it is , do you know where he is now?

Also , was he togheter whit a danish girlfriend.?

Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 21:48:34 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: More on Bhole Ji's band
Message:
Yes, it was indeed Kund. The band on the run story evolved out of he and a carful of brits having to take off for a week or two until the immigration problems started by DLM died down.

He was married, and his wife had some kind of official position with the Danish DLM. Kund stayed loosely aligned with BBJ/Bhole Ji, but the last I heard of that was he was on the east coast in the late 70s, early 80s. Nice guy, no BS, great sax player.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 22:21:29 (GMT)
From: Ulf
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: More on Bhole Ji's band (knud)
Message:
Hi Francesca
Thanks for your answer, i saw knud outside a festival
in Germany in the late 70, i went outside whit some premiefriends and there he was ,at that time he was a litlle
known in the danish rockmusic, he made a record where he played
whit a big star here.
He was invited inside , but he refused to come,he said that now
he was a follower of BBJ, and that he was the same as M
Offcourse we felt sorry for him,trying to tell him he was wrong.
but he wouldt not ``understand``

And you are right , hes girlfriend was a member of the danish
DLM Bosses, she was the one , who really turned me on to M
But i dont blame her, i liked her a lot , allways wondered
where she went , i know that she never stayed togheter whit
Knud, she left Denmark in 80
I think she married the man who used to make food for M

Do you know where she is now ??

and i also loved the apostels i like you to know

Thanks Ulf

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 23:51:50 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Ulf
Subject: Sorry Ulf, didn't know her! n/t
Message:
n/t
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 10:01:37 (GMT)
From: kap
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: yes hard times were had.
Message:
did i ever mention that once dlm wpc folks tried to get me to commit suicide.it was just after orlando .i had failed to reach rawat to beg forgiveness for an offence i had commited. after i drove away from the gathering site wpc followed me and handed me a gun and told me i should commit suicide.i refuse as i felt i had been tormented into cursing rawat bye crazy Ross of san francisco ashram.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 12:20:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: kap
Subject: Why should anyone believe you?
Message:
Sorry, kap, but you've got one weird story after another but nothing in between to make me feel like I can trust what you're saying. I mean who the hell are you, anyway? No, not necessarily your real name (I can understand why you wouldn't want to give it. Why, just the other day I weathered two assassination attempts by WPC flying mahatma monkey ninjas -- and that was just GETTING to work. Coming home was something else). But who the hell are you? What do you do? What's your life about? That kind of thing.

You know, as it stands right now, you're not exactly someone I'd send my nieces to stay with looking for work in the big city, for example. You know, 'hey girls, it's okay, you'll be staying with Uncle Kap.' You're a little further down the spectrum than that, I think. So you want to sell these wild stories of yours? You better trick us into thinking your sane or something.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:40:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing?
Message:
Wow, I didn't know you had gone through that.

Who supported the 'Apostles' or 'the band' or whatever it was, during that period? Did you perform at programs during that time, like at Amherst Guru Puja, in 1974?

God, I didn't realize Bal Bahgwan Ji hit Raja Ji with a shoe. Do you think somebody hit Mata Ji in the face and that's why here glasses were broken?

Did Bohle Ji talk about what was going on with his family? What do you mean 'leave Bohle Ji?' Was Bohle Ji the head of the band or something. Was Bohle Ji as stupid and clumsy as he appeared to be? I only had one close encounter with him and it was very weird -- It involved him picking his nose in a fashion that grossed me out.

Didn't Raja Ji head some kind of security hit squad of some type? Did you have much involvement with him?

So, after you figured the Bohle Ji was in the BBJ/Mata Ji camp, did you just leave the cult for awhile? And then you came back?

These details are very interesting.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:38:40 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing?
Message:
See my post above for some of this.

The Apostles all worked jobs in Atlanta, GA. Bhole Ji's band was supported but when the Mission cut us off, and then Bhole Ji's sponsors either cut us off or ran out of dough, we all got jobs.

Hitting Raja Ji in the face with a shoe was a Hindi insult, the foot thing, you know. I stayed with Bhole Ji because he was the only one who wasn't telling everyone what to do. He was kind and sweet and we just played music. He seemed clumsy but he was just, what can I say, different?

Yes, I saw he had taken sides and I certainly wasn't too happy with BBJ. He came back to LA several times and had meetings wth the premies who decided to cast their lot in with him. There were premies in California and on the east coast, at least, that were aligned with BBJ, but I don't know much about it.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:06:08 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing?
Message:
Some band members talked to Divine Times and talked about how bhole was the incarnation of music and they gushed about him and how he was love incarnate ect.
Did you see that kind of thing during the time you were there?
Were you around playing with them at millenium?
You were in the Apostles, were you that fabulous female singer?
I did really like her singing.
Did the drummer of bhole ji's band just bail out right away or did he stick around for a while and try and figure out the lila?
The guy who wrote 'spread this knowledge', he married another premie singer who was also quite good. He said the lord used to have him come sing it for him during one period and once he asked him 'do you want anything?' and he didnt know what to say and felt like he had it all so he said 'no maharaji' and for years later (of course), he would lament that he had the chance to ask the krisha for whatever he wanted and he didnt come up with some ultimate devotee request.

the lord put us all SO way out on a limb.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:48:25 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Correction ...
Message:
Polly Bolton was also in the band post Millenium, has a heavenly voice and wrote great songs
as was Allen Thomas and Sandy and a woman named Carol
and Richie (of Soul Survivors fame)
and Ron
and Kev Dempsey (then Polly's husband, guitar player and songwriter extroardinaire)

It was a zoo.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:42:34 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Can you say more about Bohle Ji thing?
Message:
There were a lot of fabulous female singers.

Colleen Veader (Apostles, BBJ's band post-millenium)
Polly Bolton (Blue Aquarius) during the Mlllenium period
Syliva St. James (BBJ's band, post millenium)
Me ((Apostles, BBJ's band post-millenium)

Susan Burns married 'Mad Dog' Phil Marriott of the Apostles and has a lovely voice and writes great songs. She sang that magical version of 'Focus your mind on the form of Maharaji' at Orlando that actually helped us believe he was god.

F

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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:29:11 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Can you say more about..
Message:
I have a copy of that 'focus' live version you are refferring to.
Who was the female singer one the Apostles -lord of the universe- album?
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Date: Fri, Jan 26, 2001 at 04:40:25 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Can you say more about..
Message:
I see you already answered that.

I think I have both Apostles albums. One came out in 74 or 75.
It had -Lila- on it and other songs.

What did you think of mataji?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:19:56 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Yes, Francesca was that fabulous singer
Message:
Her songs kept me alive when I was dying of loneliness and celibacy in the Indian ashram in Durban 76-78. Thanks, Francesca.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:44:03 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: Well I don't know about that but ...
Message:
glad you enjoyed it and that it warmed your heart a little!

F

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:12:06 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: ham@hamzen.fsnet.co.uk
To: Francesca
Subject: No false modesty now Francesca
Message:
if you were THAT singer on the Apostles album,
well big up to you big time, that album gave me the shivers I can tell you
that got played to death by me, excellent album, in fact for me it reaked of all the best qualities of acid,
the only REAL music that ever came out of the cult for me

also liked Foxfire on the Blue Aquarius album,

funnily enough the horn riff off of foxfire was sampled for a pretty big house track over here a couple of years ago!
.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 18:17:57 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Now, Ham, I hope you will understand
Message:
why I love the music of the human voice. Nice to see you.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:57:09 (GMT)
From: Francesca
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Was not on the album ...
Message:
I was supposed to be on the album, but I didn't want to miss a program in England. There was also some miscommunication going on about who was going to be on it and who was not. I remember we were at the airport and someone was called back to go down to LA for the recording session. I was glad it was not me.

I also was not on the Blue Aquarius album because I was POST Millenium for BOTH the Apostles and BBJ's band. There were some recordings floating around somewhere -- tapes made by Jacques Sandoz of me in 1973, Apostles demo from 1974, and various BBJ band rough cuts, and a group tape made and produced in LA in about 1978 (can't remember the name). I sang at all the programs, sometimes solo, sometimes w/bands. I forget who sang on the Apostles album. Perhaps Susan Burns?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:46:49 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Francesca
Subject: Well you know you were my singing angel
Message:
but I promise I won't rub it in in public as I have in private. Love you.
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:57:50 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Walking away
Message:
I went back and read the Journey I posted in 1999, and noticed that it was an abbreviated one. They all are, I guess. Compressing years into a couple of thousand words entails leaving out more than a few details.

The two weeks leading up to my Aha! experience definitely fertilized the soil, so to speak.

First of all, as I mentioned in the Journey, my moving to the ashram in the first place was kind of a last-ditch effort to stay in that devotional frame of mind. To prove to myself (even more than to Maharaj Ji) that I was 100% dedicated. I really wasn't feeling too happy about the festival treadmill which was really the heart of the DLM experience back then. So I was ready to be talked out of my indentured servitude.

Anyway, in the weeks prior to my leaving I had a temporary clerical job downtown. I worked with a very interesting and beautiful young woman who was about to start a new teaching job in the mountains. It made me think. The mountains! A real job where I could give, interact, find fulfillment! A wife (love! sex with a real person!)! A family! Kids! Real life! FREEDOM!

Here's the second thing that happened, the same week. I was eating my ashram brown bag peanut butter lunch on a worn concrete stoop in lower downtown Denver, reading a newspaper which had just debuted that year. 1978. (Westword, still around today.) On the back page was an article on cults and cult-think. One of the main ideas was that cults reinforce a we/they divine/devil etc. kind of split in the mind. I started reflecting on my internal world, the DLM philosopy...and began to seriously question the wisdom of trying to find wisdom through the kind of purposeful ignorance I was involved in.

So my frying-pan lightbulb revelation did not really come out of the blue. There had been a loosening of my belief system over a period of a couple of weeks.

Plus, I had not been in the cult for as long as many exes posting on this site. Three or four years, less than a year in the 'shram. Maybe it's like smoking...I only smoked a pack a day for a year or two; it wasn't too hard to quit. My wife, though, a smoker for twenty or thirty years...well, I don't know if she'll ever be able to quit.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:44:11 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: 'just walk away Renee' ...
Message:
I just love it when exes get to reclaim the lost feelings and thought-processes that went into the process of entering and exiting the 'cosy little world' that we were supposed to think was life with Maharaji.

Cosy it certainly wasn't for me - neither on entering, nor exiting, - but there was a period in the middle where I thought that I had found everything in life I had been looking for, and couldn't imagine having to deal with what I thought (- or was programmed to think?) life would be without the support-structure of premies, DLM (now EV) and Maharaj Ji.

I guess I rationalised it like this:

I had spent so much time and effort getting involved in this trip, being reduced (literally) to begging (the mahatma) to get 'knowledge' in the first place, then committing myself to giving all my worldy goods (and some of my parents' - to my eternal regret) to the so-called 'Lord' - and then giving my total resources and working full-time for the Maha (in Hansa Graphic, if anyone remembers the printing works that produced a lot of the UK's early stuff on the Maha) -
I had 'invested' (wrong word) so much of myself in promoting M's message, that to go back on it all and say that I had wasted all those years, all that effort, and all that faith - wasted it on a snake-oil salesman whose evident priority was to live as luxurious a life as a lad from the Punjab could - well ... they say that breaking up is hard to do. It was. And that was only after 3 years of being involved.

There must be someone, somewhere, either on the web or in print, who has given this some thought. Not just in terms of allegiance to a cult, but in terms of devoting a large slice of your life to a faith, a belief, a relationship, an idea ... whatever.

What ARE the issues involved with recognising that, after taking a wrong turn, it IS possible to get back on our original track?

It's a process that isn't just limited to exiting a cult/religion/faith either.

.
.
.
Well, I'll sign off by reposting what I said to Brian too and Sandy in a long thread below that would have been missed by many who have limited time here. I for one think it's worth repeating:

It went like this:

Like many premies, Sandy has a lot of his own self-identity wrapped up in this whole trip.

Well, that's hardly surprising is it - after umpteen years being convinced that he (Sandy) had chosen the true and perfect master of all masters.

You could call it pride, you could call it ego, but it boils down to the same thing - a reluctance to admit that the object of our affections was not really worthy of the name 'Perfect Master'.

It might be hard to admit we were wrong in thinking that he was the true Master we wanted him to be. But when you discover you've been mistaken, isn't better to admit it, learn from it, and progress from there?

I thought the Maha was God incarnate once. The delusion lasted three years for me. Can I imagine if it had lasted for thirty years?

One thing's for sure - as the Dakota Indians say - when you find you're riding a dead horse, the best thing is to dismount immediately.

No matter how much you loved the horse.

Is Maharaji going to bring peace to the planet like he said he would? He's had three decades so far. And in that time, what have we seen? The number of people taking and practising knowledge has been reduced to a handful, and yet M's appetite for squandering resources that could propagate knowledge has steadily increased to an almost obsessive level. Has he forgotten what he once said?

It's sad to realise, but it's all too obvious where his priorities lie.
.
.
.
Sandy, it's bound to hurt for a while, but I hope that, when you get over it, you'll find real gratitude - to yourself - for awakening your courage to find your true freedom again, no matter how hurt your pride is going to be.

.
.
.
Hope this helps some others as much as it helps me.

Best,

Chris.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:13:24 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Snapping?
Message:
Hi Joe:

Perhaps Gregg just snapped earlier than you did. Granted, perhaps you wallowed and suffered in doubt, frustration and fear more or longer than Gregg, but perhaps not. The vacuum-packed seal in his mind broke open and he was freed. Perhaps it took more to break your seal, but it broke nonetheless.

I, too, snapped out of it also. Perhaps there's something to walking down the street, but like Gregg, I was walking down the street and had the thought, 'This isn't working.' And although it took a fair amount of therapy to clean up the toxic waste site my life had become from so much stinkin' thinkin', I knew I was out of CultLand. The Guru Theme Park was in bad decline.

Even though my life was the pits, and so much was unravelling at the time, and even though I endured it for what seemed like years (like you), it was a one-time snap that allowed me to exit.

Although I had all the doubts you expressed above after I snapped, the snap was so much of a wake up call that it provided me the strength to sail past the murky waters of doubt and fear. There's two adages, one attributed to Seneca, the other from my reading of Erica Jong, which helped me through those times. Seneca's is: 'If you know not what harbor you are sailing for, no wind is the right wind.' This allowed me to make decisions. And Erica's was: 'If you risk nothing, you risk even more.' This gave me the cojones to follow the decisions I had to make.

I didn't have low self-esteem, though, I had no self-esteem, so I can't say for sure if esteem figures into the equation. Most likely, it's individual to each person. I think if I had ignored my snap (which I'm not sure is possible), I would've developed curvature of the spine, that's how oppressed I felt.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of intersting responses to your query.

Take care
Monmot

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:56:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Snapping?
Message:
Yeah, it's true like you said, that at some point I DID 'snap,' but it really wasn't a feeling that 'I can just walk away.' It was more like, 'I can't stand this anymore, I HATE this, and if I am going to hell, then so be it.'

After I left, I started to feel some of the freedom and reduction in the weight I was carrying, but it wasn't like I made some kind of decision like, 'it's better if I leave, so I'll just leave,' which is what Gregg seems to have done.

Actually, for me it was more like the fact that all of a sudden I saw clearly that Maharaji was a fraud, that this cult was nonsense, that I had wasted years of time and energy, all kind of hit me at once, both the feeling of needing to get out and the feeling of having been incredibly stupid.

As you can imagine, I was not a happy camper, and I essentially had no contact with premies for years as a result. I didn't want to see them, and when I did, I tended to bite their heads off, and so I was not only a Monmot, but a disagreeable one at that, so I think I was avoided. Joy was my major ex-premie friend, and she felt the same way I did. Fortunately, we could laugh about it too, and seen lots of French films.

Like you, then came the therapy, the anger, the sense of betrayal, and all the rest. But even coming to this website 14 years later, some of this stuff still wasn't completely resolved, although this kind of discussion really helps.

And I agree, had I stayed after that, I would not have survived, or at least that's how it felt.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:16:48 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Never Underestimate the Power of French Films
Message:
I saw a load of French films also--I always left them wanting to drink coffee, eat bread, smoke cigarettes and wear blue. I survived high school by imagining I was really living in Paris, so I guess I'm a sucker for all things Frog.

The state you described yourself in makes me think that that may of been what was happening to some of the poor souls who committed suicide. Perhaps they were avoided and/or isolated, didn't have a friend like you had Joy, and had no relief from being caught in the crevasse between darkness (M) and light (breaking free).

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:52:20 (GMT)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Never Underestimate the Power of French Films
Message:
Hi Joe and Monmot, been enjoying this thread. Joe, I can't remember exactly when I left the ashram! It's sort of repressed (like when my parents broke up and we left the house when I was 16, I can't remember a thing about it and neither can my sister). Was it 1981? I remember getting my own apartment in Sept. 1982 and had had a series of unsuccessful premie room-mates before then (but we won't go into that!), so it must have been late 1981. I remember being somewhat pleased with myself that I got out before the stampede, had seen the writing on the wall with the inquisitions, etc. I know I wouldn't have lasted a minute more once that started.

But I probably hold a record for having left the ashram not once or twice, but THREE times. First time was in 1973 when I'd had enough of British austerity in the printing ashram in north London and decided to make the break and come back to America. I think Peter Potter was glad to be rid of the headstrong American and gladly gave me the money. Then I had to convince David Passes that I wasn't a bongo and to let me do my same typesetting service in Denver, which he let me do, so I went back in at that point (Denver being where the action was back in late 73). I was always a follower of the main action for some reason, and not 'surrendered' as to where they would send me. (Definitely 'ex' material from the start!)

Then of course in 76 I left also for a year, and was stoned, I think, every single day. That was probably my best year with Knowledge, believe it or not, I really enjoyed the community and my friends and being a Sunday-night only satsang-goer, only marginally involved. I am envious of the premies who were able to just do this the whole time and not fall for it hook-line-and-sinker like I did. But then the super-devotional renaissance began again and I got swept back in in 77, and lasted until late 1981 when it was just all too much once again. So three departures in all, though it wasn't until the third one that I actually left M also.

But I do remember clearly when I left in 1981 that it took a LONG time to begin to see Maharaji clearly for the fraud that he is and it was quite awhile before I could say or think anything negative about him, also. It was not a clean break initially. And I don't know that I'd have come to those conclusions quite so quickly without Joe's help and input, someone to bounce the ideas off of and make fun of it all with. To break away from cult-think by yourself would be, I imagine, a very difficult thing to do, and I do admire those who have done so.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:43:00 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: To Monmot: re: Parisian longings (ot)
Message:
You might be interested in this book that came out a month ago, written by Adam Gopnik, staff writer for the New Yorker: From Paris to the Moon. He always had a weakness for things French, and moved his family to Paris for five years recently. Wrote about it - a great book. I saw him speak last week - a funny, articulate, insightful guy.

And to think (getting a little less OT here) that we used to think GMJ was articulate! (OK, I guess even in the thralls of premiedom I never thought he was articulate, but still...)

Imagine how much we would know if, instead of all those community satsangs we attended, we'd been going to classes and lectures!

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 02:11:41 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Nabbed a copy........ (ot)
Message:
I went to my favorite used book store where they sell loads of review copies of brand new books, and I found Gopnik's book, so I grabbed it. Talk about synchronicity!! Also got the new Ken Burns Jazz book, and Kenneth Davis' bio of FDR during WWII ('40-'43), and Schlesinger's 'Life In the 20th Century.' Serious score all around, but I'm really looking forward to escaping to Paris with Gopnik.

I would have loved to have lived in Paris during the expatriate days of Hemingway et al. I also just found a book by Janet Flanner with her stories which she posted to the New Yorker about life in Paris. Armchair travel at its best.

Thanks again for the recommendation.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:58:42 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: To Monmot: re: Parisian longings (ot)
Message:
Gopnik's book is great. I also heard him interviewed on NPR not long ago.

How about 'Me Talk Pretty One Day' by David Sedaris. It is hysterical and half the book is about David living in Paris and a small village in Normandy.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 21:57:14 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Just in Time (ot)
Message:
Have to leave now and was planning to go to my favorite bookstore before my appointment, so I'll check out Gopnik's book. Thanks for telling me about that. Maybe I can do a vicarious Parisian journey, although I'd love to live in Paris for a while. (Anth may have more on this.)

Don't even mention lost educational opportunities. Susan and I both agree that that issue is one of the more painful aspects of having been in a cult--they way we dismissed our intellects.

Thanks again, Gregg, for the Parisian tip off.

M

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:58:33 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: To just 'walk away.'
Message:
Laziness.

A much unheralded virtue. I didn't like getting up at 5 am and having to spend the next hour or so snoring against a wall. And then *gasp* go to work. At a job. With a boss. Horrors !!!

But you Joe, it was the sugar, obviously. Makes a guy lose all sense of devotion. Yup, too much sucrose doth make a sinner out of the greatest saint.

That's all I can figger out anyways...

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:53:29 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe - 'walking away.'
Message:
I haven't really analyzed it seriously but I know that I hung on because of low self-esteem, being a dirty fag an all that. Hey, at least you got out sooner than I did.
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:29:31 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Name that cult, oldies but goodies
Message:
May the Lord bless you and open for you from heaven the perpetual spring unfailing and make you privy to that Knowledge which is possessed by the Holy Beings.

Anyone care to guess?

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 09:14:15 (GMT)
From: tONETTE
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: This is probably cheating...........
Message:
Dead Sea Scrools???????/

Nice to see you posting here again.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:44:07 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Marshall Applewhite of Heaven's Gate? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:00:32 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: Way
Subject: The answer is inside
Message:
The quote is from 'A Formulary of Blessing', one of the scrolls from Qumran (the dead sea scrolls).

These 'pre-christian' jews were fighting the battle of 'the children of light againt the priest of darkness' from about 100BC till the end, when the Romans marched in and annilated the whole group (68AD). Their savior never showed up.

However, some of the groups practices - like baptism, were passed to another group that ended up being much more successful in the business of saving souls.

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 04:10:06 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: The answer is enjoy this life and ignore god.
Message:
one 'priest of darkness' they old jews had to contend with was Samuel. For christs sake! He was nuts.
And frankly, a lot of the old jew scriptures was guys claiming to 'channel' god!
god said this, god said that, and they didnt even have a burning bush to talk to!
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:28:55 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Time for closure with Turner yet???
Message:
Turner says that he has come here because of his need to express his differing perspective.

Well, we now know his perspective: there is an Infinite Truth above the material world, we must sincerely devote ourselves to this Truth, and Maharaji is the Master of this Truth and as such he is above all human judgements.

Turner has received many rebuttals to his perspective. He has let us know that none of our rebuttals has swayed him in the least. Well, how could they? What can we possibly say? Any argument we put forth is only human judgement, and already rejected by him per se.

We have pointed out all of Rawat's glaring imperfections that we know about. Doesn't matter - Maharaji is perfectly attuned to the Higher Truth and cannot be judged, period.

And as for that Higher Infinite Truth that Turner loves 100%, what can we possibly say? I would attempt to say: if the Infinite came knocking on Turner's door in any serious way, he would run like hell screaming bloody murder. But I could say such things until I'm blue in the face, and not influence Turner in the slightest.

There are times that exes have made obviously legitimate points to Turner. But he has never once acknowledged the validity of any of these points. He just doesn't have the time/energy to respond with any degree of human politeness. He either remains perfectly silent on those points or slips around the subject with new questions.

So, thanks so much for visiting, Turner. But is there really anything to be achieved by continuing to rehash any of 'your perspective' or our rebuttals? Isn't it time for you to go back to your Master? Perhaps you could compose a poem on the subject of Rawat's perfect attunement to otherworldly Truth, or one about how the Master makes the Infinte concrete for you, or one called The Living Perfect Role Model. The people at ELK will be happy to publish it for you.

Perhaps what you have learned at the ex-premie website will cause you some private reassessments. Maybe you will end up viewing Mr. Rawat in a different way. I hope so. Perhaps you will end up viewing the universe in a different way. I hope so. Perhaps you will see that being an average, normal human being and NOT 100% devoted to the Infinite is not so bad. Maybe you will see that the guru's Perfectness is a wild goose chase and that the love of the universe can come to those who simply are who they are.

But that is up to you.

So I'm signing off on this one, but if others want to keep the exchange going, I don't mean to stop you. Perhaps there is still more to say and to reflect about - if so, go for it.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 20:33:13 (GMT)
From: Brian Smith
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Turner I would like to talk with you some/repost
Message:
(I came in this morning and was addressing Turner below, this is a better place to post this I think. disregard lower post)

Turner, I have never talked with you before, but I recently came out and restored my freedom and I hope that I can provide a few insights for you to think about.

Do you want to know who it is for me? Hey, no surprises here…it’s Maharaji. I looked for someone who supported the aspirations of my heart and he is who I found. I saw in him a man of wisdom, strength, vision,compassion,intelligence,kindness. I saw a model father, a model leader, a master of life, and someone with a healthy irreverence for the status quo. These are all attributes I aspire to.

You definately make a good point about your critera for the qualities of role model and a leader. All of the attributes you mentioned in your post exemplify leadership characteristics and high standards.

Who set those standards? are they not your own, by your own admission this is YOUR criteria. If these are your standards how can you justify putting continued faith in someone who falls short of them? Or do you hold every one else to these standards
except for Maharaji who is exempt? and because he is so sacred and exalted that he is above reproach.

If you compromise your standards for anyone even once, if you make exceptions and exclusions your standards are corrupted and they will never bear the fruit of truth. This is a good example of diseased thinking as you suggest some of us here are engaged in.

You know I do like that part in your post about 'a healthy irreverance for the status quo'.

You really should try that one out in respect to your position here, see how Maharaji stacks up to a little 'healthy ireverance'
I agree that would be an admirable quality to apply in this case.

I saw in him a man of wisdom, strength, vision, compassion, intelligence, kindness. I saw a model father, a model leader, a master of life, and someone with a healthy irreverence for the status quo. These are all attributes I aspire to.

And why do you stop yourself short by just aspiring to these standards Turner, why not command them, own them and live them for yourself. To vicariuosly fullfill these qualities in others and not through your own self is like being on the outside looking in on your own life.
Who says that you cannot rise to your own very fine standards standards and live accordingly. If you can live according to your set of standards as listed here I say you have something to show Maharaji in this regard and he would do and well to learn
from you. A true Master of life would be open to learning from his students I should think.

In the midst of everything I’ve done, my standards for personal integrity have remained intact, which I continue to strive for. And my role model also remains intact in the midst of the accusations because he is still all those admirable things
I mentioned above. I have yet to come across anyone with enough of those qualities to replace him.

This sounds like you are making an attempt to forgive yourself, this is a good thing Turner. But on the point of your personal integrity remaining intact, if you are striving for integrity
you do not have integrity. You have the desire to have integrity and you are striving for it, you are just not there yet. This explains a lot to me why you are still bonded to Maharaji and to your beliefs. I don't doubt your sincerity in your desire to strive for integrity and I sense that your intentions are honorable. Trust yourself to take one more step, you are almost there.

I have yet to come across anyone with enough of those qualities to replace him.

And why do you think that you need to Replace Maharaji with another role model or some other belief? You have enough life experience by now to be your own role model to yourself and others by your example. Why not simply let him go?, period, don't jump out of the frying pan and into another fire.

You want to belive in something, believe in your self, Put as much trust and faith in yourself as yourself as you do Maharaji and you will soon see that you are more than worthy of the love and respect that you have given away to him all of these years.
I found that everything that I was looking for Maharaji to fullfill all contained within me.

Plus more, I now have my own free will back, I am no longer a puppet to my years of cult conditioning and beliefs.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:46:36 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I'd rather attempt a serious discussion ....
Message:
with pauline premie. At first I thought Pauline had just adopted a new handle and I do find this turner quite entertaining. As in 'WHAT THE F::::, CAN YOU BELIEVE THIS GUY?S FOR REAL !!!

AS someone said below this person is doing a great job of portraying the blinkered , brainwashed cult member....

He seems similar to one of the nazi's at Nuremburg who really still couldn't believe that they were devoted to a monster...right up until the hangman slipped the noose over their necks !

Personally I wouldn't know where to start in trying to get through to Turner but he isn't abusive or disruptive. He's a little similar to ol' Shroom but with more brain.. or he's also rather like the one who called himself 'mirror'..

Hal

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:29:30 (GMT)
From: DJURO
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hal, how are you,
Message:
my old friend?
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:18:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hal, you seem to be saying...
Message:
Personally I wouldn't know where to start in trying to get through to Turner but he isn't abusive or disruptive. He's a little similar to ol' Shroom but with more brain.. or he's also rather like the one who called himself 'mirror'.

... or inferring these guys are merely CLONES of one another. That they have no individuality of thought, like somehow they've all been subjected to the same BRAINWASHING. Is that what you're saying Hal? Is it? IS IT ???

Where's your respect for the individual cult member? These are PEOPLE cult members, Hal. Take my word for it. Or better yet, read some of DJURO'S posts. You'll see that each premie, while being part of the whole universe, is indeed his or her own man. An individual drop in the ocean of love. I-N-D-I-V-I-D-U-A-L is the key word here, Hal.

Do you understand how difficult that was to type?

Sheesh and double sheesh. I'm getting sick and tired of having to take you boys to task everyday. First Jim and now YOU Hal. Who's next? Patrick? Susan? WHERE WILL THIS ALL END ???

Sincerely,

A sorely embittered and deeply disappointed gErRy whose thinking of giving Knowledge another fair chance...

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:08:31 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I'm chuckling - thanks nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 13:15:03 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: rawatSucks needs help
Message:
can someone please e-mail me through the page. I just corrected the e-mail and want to see if it works, ta ta. And be nice.

salam@rawatsucks

p.s. read the rest of my hard earned research.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:31:06 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Salam,
Message:
Salam alaikum.
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 13:09:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Djuro
Message:
You dumb ass, when are you going to learn how to talk?
MANUIK.
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:03:48 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: The image enlarged
Message:
in case anyone is interested in the details of the image, here it is:

click for image

Be proud rawat, it gives you credit that you don't deserve.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:39:13 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: rawatSucks needs spellchecking!
Message:
although spellcheck won't catch all the mistakes...like 'tommy' for 'tummy.'
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:50:22 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: rawatSucks needs spellchecking!
Message:
working on it, Stonor the non-premie that has nothing to do with this site is helping me, I hope, aren't you StonOr?
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 15:03:45 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: rawatSucks needs help
Message:
Dear Salam,
I tried but it comes up from the friend I am living with. It is because I hook my modem into her phone line but it is her account so Outlook Express pops up. I forgot I can never email that way because I never use my ISP's email address.
I forgot to tell you when I just emailed you that I did look at your site last night. You'll be keeping busy keeping that one away from EV demolishen(sp) team!
I also looked at your map and the problem is you want one of just that area that is bigger/more zoomed in, so you can see more detail, right? Let me know and I'll see if I can help.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:03:15 (GMT)
From: rawatSucks
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: I mean salam
Message:
Man I love this woman, she keep calling me dear.

It's OK the e-mail works, I got few in.

As for the map

Ivory's rock

I can only go one level up by clicking on it, the second time it comes up with numbers and topological info. I thought you may be able to tell me more.

p.s. did you know that EV is watching this conversation, yep, they have 8 bongos/bozzos evasdropping on us. They get very interested when we talk about rocks. you can e-mail me if you want

Salam

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:12:58 (GMT)
From: Cynthia
Email: None
To: rawatSucks
Subject: Salam, I looked at your site...
Message:
and it's coming along nicely. The map link is great too. The ''rock'' is it? Is that the place that starts with a capital ''A''?

My hot mail server is screwing up so I couldn't email you back today, and I only have a few minutes before I must begin working.

Be well, and good luck on your ''other endeavor'' puff puff, cough, cough..::)) It's my turn, soon. Sheesh!

Love,
Cynthia

P.S. All the links I clicked on came through fine on the site.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 16:39:10 (GMT)
From: salam
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Yeah that is where the big A is
Message:
This page took me about half an hour to do, the graphics took more. Am working on the main site which is much larger. Do not think that Ev is interested in a small fish like a single page site, do you, well if they do, they must be really paranoid.

Anyway better not talk too much, we do not know who is sniffing now do we? Better contact me on lindline or through the secret network that I showed you.

How about being sporty ha EV?

By the way what does it cost to buy a link on your web page. You c*nts are getting free advertising, what about doing the same for us?

Salam

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:36:32 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: An invitation to dinner
Message:
Becoming More Interested?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Come to the Sunday feast program at your local Hare Krishna temple. There you will find a variety of activities with many dedicated devotees to help you become more and more Krishna conscious. Look in the listing of the centers throughout the world and join with the other ISKCON members in chanting, feasting, drama, lectures, slide shows, or films, and spend your Sunday afternoons in a most spiritually enjoyable fashion.
When you are home, you might want to distribute Krishna conscious books, prasadam, or CDs to those you know or meet, or share with them what you have learned about the philosophy. Invite them to your home for a small program, or invite them to come with you to the temple on Sunday. As you advance and become convinced of the necessity of spiritual life, your house can also become a center for Krishna consciousness in your area.

Those who are able can donate to the temple each month to help maintain the temple and preaching programs. One can also give donations to the traveling preachers who visit. Every donation you give to the Vaishnavas is given back a thousand times more in your next lifetime. When a Vaishnava uses your hard-earned money in the service of the Lord, you achieve automatic spiritual advancement, as if you did the service yourself. One should use one's life, energy, wealth, intelligence, and words in the service of the Lord. So engage as much as possible in devotional service, or bhakti-yoga, the prescribed method of spiritual realization in this present age (Kali-yuga).

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:54:12 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Where did all the posts go
Message:
I though djour was being talkative, shitsji.
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:42:26 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: Is this the same Hare Krishna
Message:
cult who have just been fighting a massive case by victims of child abuse in their private schools?

Anth the curious

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 14:26:32 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Yes, they too seem to sanction child abuse(nt)
Message:
w
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:18:17 (GMT)
From: DJURO
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: An invitation to dinner
Message:
Do you remember that 5000 years back some people were proKrishna and some antiKrishna. During history it always happens. Today too! By the way, what would realy Krishna say if He apears in ISKON temple? Arjun was lusky to have Krishna alive, to ask what he didnīt understand. Whom to ask today? And, Krishna didnīt bring any book, but He came Himself!
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:50:47 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: An invitation to dinner
Message:
Dear JTF,
When I was a premie and we were in New York City for a father's day parade for m, one of our group had been a Hare Krishna and so took us to the temple/ashram whatever and for a bit of crowded jumping and chanting we were seated to a feast. The food was EXCELLENT and the cost was whatever change we could find on our person.
As for the rest, one cult this life time for me thank you.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 12:23:19 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: An invitation to dinner
Message:
...in my pre-cult days, I would have enjoyed taking some mind-altering drug and going there as a freaky adventure!!!
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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 06:15:04 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: JTF
Subject: An invitation to dinner
Message:
Dear JTF,
We had a blast without the drugs. We had a great time not that I have anything against mind altering drugs mind you. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 10:51:52 (GMT)
From: Fact
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: For the PREMIES: Khrisnamurti
Message:
“I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices.

Wake up!

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 18:40:09 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Fact
Subject: For the PREMIES: Khrisnamurti
Message:
Wake up!!!
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 13:56:19 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Fact
Subject: For the PREMIES: Khrisnamurti
Message:
Fact:

It's a sentiment, but doesn't quite add up to advice. After all, if there is any truth to what he's saying it's not suprising that the statement fails to capture the truth itself, and fails to give us very much to go on. If there isn't at least some pattern to truth then it's unapproachable in the first place. I think what he's talking about is that it doesn't add up to a formula that you can apply to all specific situations. Each situation is potentially different, so the application of truth will often be just as specific and you have to approach with fresh eyes.

I think it may be a little like prime numbers. We can tell a prime from a non-prime, and even have some patterns to go by in ruling out some possibilities, but still have no way of predicting what the *next* prime number will be on the growing list. That's because something like half the numbers in the list up to that point have some potential impact on the determination of the next number on the list, or rather they have an impact on the numbers that will *not* be on the list. Only numbers without a multiplicative relationship to any previous number will be on the list of primes. Likewise, truth is a condition not resolvable by any prior conception or condition. But you have to be careful to do your division methodically, or you'll be led to a false conclusion.

I like Krishnamurti, but sometimes he gets a bit carried away. I think it's because he embodies the 'anti-Guru.' It's his mission.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:42:26 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Like it! Nice one, Scott T. -nt-
Message:
lb
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:40:50 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Fact
Subject: For the PREMIES: Khrisnamurti
Message:
Wake up!!!
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:24:51 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Fact
Subject: Hey that is nice
Message:
If I am not mistaken the Theosophical Society tried to adopt Khrisnamurti as there leader or guru and he would have no part of it.This guy had amazing insight by the looks of it
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:21:22 (GMT)
From: Fact
Email: None
To: Fact
Subject: For the PREMIES: Khrisnamurti- MORE
Message:
Krishnamurti spoke these words the day he decided to dissolve his organization.

All excerpts were found at:

Krishnamurti

“Because I am free, unconditioned, whole–not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal–I desire those, who seek to understand me to be free; not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears–from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want anything from anyone.

“You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority, which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers--a miracle–transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.

“You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyze what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally. When you look for an authority to lead you to spirituality, you are bound automatically to build an organization around that authority. By the very creation of that organization, which, you think, will help this authority to lead you to spirituality, you are held in a cage.

More...

“As I said before, my purpose is to make men unconditionally free, for I maintain that the only spirituality is the incorruptibility of the self which is eternal, is the harmony between reason and love. This is the absolute, unconditioned Truth which is Life itself. I want therefore to set man free, rejoicing as the bird in the clear sky, unburdened, independent, ecstatic in that freedom . And I, for whom you have been preparing for eighteen years, now say that you must be free of all these things, free from your complications, your entanglements. For this you need not have an organization based on spiritual belief. Why have an organization for five or ten people in the world who understand, who are struggling, who have put aside all trivial things? And for the weak people, there can be no organization to help them to find the Truth, because Truth is in everyone; it is not far, it is not near; it is eternally there.

More...

“Organizations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you free; nor can organized worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organization, nor throwing yourselves into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an altar and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organizations become your chief concern. “How many members are there in it?” That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. “How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false.” I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. As I said, if there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough.

“Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity.

“So you will see how absurd is the whole structure that you have built, looking for external help, depending on others for your comfort, for your happiness, for your strength. These can only be found within yourselves.

“You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are beautiful or ugly within? Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible? You are not serious in these things.

More...

“Freedom is not a reaction; freedom is not a choice. It is man’s pretense that because he has choice he is free. Freedom is pure observation without direction, without fear of punishment and reward. Freedom is without motive; freedom is not at the end of the evolution of man but lies in the first step of his existence. In observation one begins to discover the lack of freedom. Freedom is found in the choiceless awareness of our daily existence and activity.

“Thought is time. Thought is born of experience and knowledge, which are inseparable from time and the past. Time is the psychological enemy of man. Our action is based on knowledge and therefore time, so man is always a slave to the past. Thought is ever-limited and so we live in constant conflict and struggle. There is no psychological evolution.

“When man becomes aware of the movement of his own thoughts, he will see the division between the thinker and thought, the observer and the observed, the experiencer and the experience. He will discover that this division is an illusion. Then only is there pure observation which is insight without any shadow of the past or of time. This timeless insight brings about a deep, radical mutation in the mind.

“Total negation is the essence of the positive. When there is negation of all those things that thought has brought about psychologically, only then is there love, which is compassion and intelligence.”

Maharaji is not a true Master because he doesn't empowers people, he makes week and dependable, fragil.


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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 11:30:44 (GMT)
From: Aussi Ji
Email: None
To: Fact
Subject: Forget nice it is fucking beautiful! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 02:58:10 (GMT)
From: Suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: a KEY to unshackling chains. and see you later...
Message:
Everybody: How's everybody doin' now, huh? Lookin' good...

I have been weeping and praying for everyone else all week, not for me. My love to everybody -- EVERY single One.

And I just learned one of the most important and difficult lessons of all in life -- the real meaning of the word 'Forgiveness.' There are 2 sides of 'Forgiveness': 1) I forgive Everything and All. And, 2) Please forgive Me, too.
r.e. m.: There must still be FULL Accountability, acknowledgements, restitution to donors/victims. Also, NO Forgetfulness on our own part of who we are as Individual Human Beings. (Never Again!), Yes. But now, from dung beetledom, I have just attained some Peace, Happiness, and Wisdom -- and my own Liberation from the chains and Hell of a life of much suffering. [r.e. forgiveness, part 1) I finally just had to release the heavy burden of any anger and bitterness I was still carrying; that's a load I don't need to lug around with me anymore. I have personally found that anger only burns up a person from within. I don't want to be my own prisoner of any more anger, bitterness, or pain.]

Also, All human beings are equal, and in our 'conversations' we should learn to listen instead of just trying to argue and enforce our own 'points' [a very poor mantra, indeed] (but rather utilize other modes of polite expression and an extended vocabulary of communication) -- we might actually learn something we didn't know, if we treat others with the same respect we would like from them. Putdowns of the newborn, and the weak and timid are patently sadistic. Please fix the Forum guidelines, and then [who knows?]...

NO one should have to enter a no-holds barred ring, a burning Ring of Fire -- you know, with the Flames leaping higher. Because it burns, Burns, BURNS, that Ring of Fire, that Ring of Fire. Poking hurting people with the sharp points of pitchforks, and then delighting in burning them with methane flames. Hey, if someone Really wants to practice that game, then I Know Just the Place for You. Because, I have actually Seen such a place, True -- the Most Horrible and Terrifying sight of them all. I Don't ever want be There Now in this life -- or maybe later, too. Believe me, you don't really want that, either. [Wise tip: I don't gamble, not even lottery, but you know, whether a person believes in a Creator or not, it's smart to hedge one's bet with loving kindness (just in case). And the right humane thing to do.] We reap the harvest of whatever we are sowing -- here and now.

One last thing, before I go: I am just a suchaf***ing banana, after all, too. But, you know, suchabanana wears a watch. Sure, it may look like just a cheap silly watch, but it is a banana watch Honestly earned -- it is a watch of Love and Truth, and while da lil' swami is on watch, this is one watch that will NEVER roll exes.

Bye bye, my friends... Peace and LOL (LotsOfLove),

such

P.S. To Jim (and to Marianne): You Really want to Grill someone on the witness stand? It ain't the victims and the choir; I got someone for you. Please depose and ask Mr. Prem Rawat, under oath and penalties, exactly What HE was doing on the Telephone in August, 1973, the day his immediate subordinates in Detroit, Michigan tried to Murder poor Pat Halley. [And Don't bother asking me any questions here; I Don't have the answers. He DOES, though...]

My banana watch is still ticking...

(r.e. anonymity [and cowardice?]: Hey, I don't see any 24hr/7days/wk witness protection program. I don't have a death wish -- how about any of you? You want to judge someone, look in the mirror, instead.)

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Date: Thurs, Jan 25, 2001 at 01:24:24 (GMT)
From: Bin Liner
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: You encouraged me about 6 mnths ago ...
Message:
...when I 1st ventured here.

Can't remember the exact train of thought now , but what the hell.

Get a good recipe for Irish Coffee , & drink one slowly every day.

God is not mocked .

Fuck Rawat , & take care.

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 22:14:15 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: see you later...
Message:
I've enjoyed your company, Such, and would like to know more about you. I look forward to your return. Be easy on yourself.

JohnT
- justabod

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:29:07 (GMT)
From: Lesley
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: Dear Such
Message:
Thanks for answering the question I put to you. There's another name for that place though, it is called being royally frightened. And you're right, it is not an essential experience to have.

Good luck in your journey, love Lesley

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 09:41:39 (GMT)
From: Stincky Dung
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: will miss you.
Message:
What with all the dung that am left with, never mind, will take it to,

salam@rawatsucks

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 08:56:11 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: hey such (and yes we have no anandas)
Message:
i hate sprawl. don't you?

line me a drop sometime if it agrees w/ya

musical notes:
'live at stockholm' is decent even for those who don't like 'science fiction' much

but i doubt the bradshaw set cares for ornette coleman

add'l mundane observations:
to 'friends' who urgently snicker while outing me when my opinion is too pointedly opposed to their own:

friends that I wish to contact from premie days know my nickname runamokanand

for my purposes the use of other name(s) is irrelevant, except to identify me to people to whom i have no wish to offer it

but then doing something to me because i dont want it done seems to specifically be your goal (e.g., to hurt me)

add'l important discussion of this issue
geez i forgot to mention that my name is private as part of a nondisclosure agreement with Maharaji - how silly of me to have forgotten this important faq

you can respect that can'tcha? a fella has to stay in biz you know - what would clients think knowing i betrayed a usually-thought-to-be unenforcable legal agreement with someone merely for being a false messiah who brought suffering to countless thousands of people through his greed and self-aggrandizement - some markets are very sensitive to those kinds of things

moral of add'l
well at least let's not discuss whether or not confidentiality agreements are enforcable - after all we actually have lawyers to forget these things for us, don't we

final clumsy appendicitis
i mean there are things that we just shouldn't talk about on here and i'd just hate to see them mentioned - think of all the peops who might join in - one day, nice little clubhouse; the next, sprawling cyber-village - we need our heroes and leaders


see you in samadhi- don't forget to right

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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 19:17:42 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: what about the moral nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 03:49:19 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: Suchabanana
Subject: a KEY to unshackling chains. and see you later...
Message:
I wish you peace of mind, Banana Ji. Are you stoned or just one of those real high-strung people, too much ESP, not over control over the ''doors of perception?'' (from Huxley's ''Heaven and Hell.'')
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 08:06:05 (GMT)
From: such
Email: None
To: Patrick Conlon
Subject: parting flame,huh? glass house stones.Peace LOL(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Jan 24, 2001 at 09:03:18 (GMT)
From: Patrick Conlon
Email: None
To: such
Subject: Not a parting flame just a spark of curiosity (nt)
Message:
d
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