Jim -:- 'Talking about death just doesn't fit in' ... sad -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:21:20 (GMT)

__ X -:- a bit more from enjoyinglife -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:12:35 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- May your own euology be so empty, Mel -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:20:37 (GMT)

__ __ X -:- one sick dude -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:15:35 (GMT)

__ Joe -:- What is more sad...... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 19:20:46 (GMT)

__ __ X -:- What is more -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:06:39 (GMT)

__ __ bill -:- I did have that letter. I will check..nt -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 05:38:45 (GMT)

__ __ ham -:- That says it all Joe -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 23:02:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ AJW -:- Yes ham, -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:03:00 (GMT)

__ Jethro -:- 'Talking about death just doesn't fit in' ... sad -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 17:51:30 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- 'Talking about death just doesn't fit in' ... sad -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 07:59:16 (GMT)

__ __ ham -:- Oooh, spikey Jed, but my take on him was similar -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 22:42:03 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- Illustrates how cold M really is -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:22:11 (GMT)

__ __ ExTex -:- Illustrates how cold M really is -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:35:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- He obviously did -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 03:03:30 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- My prediction -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:06:25 (GMT)

__ Mel Bourne -:- 'Talking about death just doesn't fit in' ... sad -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:43:41 (GMT)

__ __ ExTex -:- Could you address my post to you? -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:44:44 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- Nick Seymour-Jones -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:43:20 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Not poor taste - I think that is sad too... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:15:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Definitely poor taste, and I'll tell you why.... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:46:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Nigel -:- 'Your estimation' of me is your own problem.. -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 15:30:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- FA! NOW NIGEL THREATENED ME TOO!!!!! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:00:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ A dark premie presence -:- throws his serious 2 cents in -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:44:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Nigel, you are banned for life! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:21:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks, and kick him in the ass on the way out (nt -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 16:17:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Definitely poor taste, and I'll tell you why.... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:17:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Excuse me, Salam? Helloooooooooo? -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:22:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Excuse me, Salam? Helloooooooooo? -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 00:02:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- psss! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 00:18:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- It's you, I'm afraid, who's disgusting here, Mel -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:04:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- God help us -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:49:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- God help us -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 17:11:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- God help us -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 20:34:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- God help us from ex premie cant -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 00:43:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- God help us from ex premie cant -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:57:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What grief, you stupid, stupid premie??????????? -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:11:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- What grief, you stupid, stupid premie??????????? -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 23:26:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You might not actually BE stupid, Mel -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 00:55:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Last words, Mel? -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 00:30:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Last words, Mel? -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:47:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Fuck off, Katie -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:58:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Actually, it's a eulogy -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:27:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Test of the cult/non-cult difference -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:49:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Jerry, exactly the point that Mel Burn avoids -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:41:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- It's you, I'm afraid, who's disgusting here, Mel -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:43:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- It's you, I'm afraid, who's disgusting here, Mel -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 22:55:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- It's you, I'm afraid, who's disgusting here, Mel -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 03:19:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- So what, Roger.... -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 00:57:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Mel are you on drugs today or what? -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:51:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- That's my cue! -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 20:57:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- ..and what a poor cue it is, too,,, -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:04:11 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Mel's credibility is zero. -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 12:09:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Mel's credibility. -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 14:02:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Thanks Anth (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 10:44:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- Definitely poor taste, and I'll tell you why.... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:54:03 (GMT)

__ __ Tim Matheson -:- Agree with Mel -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 11:24:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Get real, Tim... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:56:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- Get real, Tim../Just Surrender, Mel -M luvs us -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:35:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Agree with Mel -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:06:29 (GMT)

__ buzz -:- 'Talking about death just doesn't fit in' ... sad -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:34:59 (GMT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Yeah, what happened -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 12:26:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ Salam -:- Yeah, what happened -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:35:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Yeah, what happened -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 18:01:18 (GMT)

Nigel -:- So where are the 'grateful' exes? -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 00:07:55 (GMT)

__ Joy -:- Only for My Friends -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 08:51:31 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Only for My Friends -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:13:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ Joy -:- Only for My Friends -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 09:06:32 (GMT)

__ ham -:- Oh bugger it, and only a bit devils advocate! -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 23:42:11 (GMT)

__ Bobby -:- So where are the 'grateful' exes? -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 20:18:59 (GMT)

__ __ Katie -:- Me too, Bobby -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 09:11:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bobby -:- Me too, Bobby -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 16:42:10 (GMT)

__ __ Nigel -:- So where are the 'grateful' exes? -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 15:49:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bobby -:- So where are the 'grateful' exes? -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:46:30 (GMT)

__ __ Helen -:- grateful to be older and wiser -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 20:44:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ Bobby -:- grateful to be older and wiser -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 21:17:52 (GMT)

__ Tonette -:- I'm grateful....grateful that is -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:18:22 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- Since you asked.... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 01:43:14 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- FA: What happened to my journey? -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 03:03:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Email the main site, Salam -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 12:28:39 (GMT)

__ __ __ sam -:- looking foreward to reading it (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 11:54:48 (GMT)

Salam -:- What is The D. Lane url? -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 16:35:32 (GMT)

__ buzz -:- What is The D. Lane url? -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 20:46:42 (GMT)

__ __ Salm -:- Thanks for the link. -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 02:56:13 (GMT)

__ __ __ buzz -:- Thanks for the link. -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:26:30 (GMT)

Jim -:- If I were a premie, why would I care about all the -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 01:47:12 (GMT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Hey Jim, you don't read the news! -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 07:52:12 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Well, I have to admit, it's VERY impressive -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:12:24 (GMT)

__ __ Salam -:- What is the benefit to him in doing that?..nt -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 08:00:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Like cats or dogs' peeing wherever they go! (nt) -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 13:12:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Did you read that EV? I did not say that..nt -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:11:05 (GMT)

__ ExTex -:- If I were a premie, why would I care about all the -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:01:42 (GMT)

Jim -:- Retard! -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 01:41:20 (GMT)

__ cq -:- the marvel of Maha ... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 18:48:08 (GMT)

__ Rob -:- Retard! -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 01:59:19 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Numbskull! -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 01:42:41 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- I got another one for you -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:09:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Tonette -:- OMG!!! LMAO -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 13:14:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ Snap Head -:- Jim and Rob - What do you think of Eminem? -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:04:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Snap Head, you are such a Sweet Heart -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 00:52:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Lesley, you are such a Sweet Heart -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:03:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Sorry doggie, I thought you were a real person -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 20:40:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Apologies, doggie, for being such a snaphead nt -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:18:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- DD!!!!!!! You bad dog, you -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:13:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- * Great post * Lesley! ..Any thoughts, Snap Head? -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:00:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ AlphaMale -:- Eminem = M+M = Maharaji+Marolyn -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 16:05:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Who is Eminem? NT -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:19:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Who is Eminem? NT -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:28:55 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, those are definitely the options -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:11:06 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Snap Head -:- Jim are you not an extremist? -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:19:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- Question for Snap Head.. -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 19:52:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ jim -:- Question for Snap Head.. -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 20:07:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Answer for Jim -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:06:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Can you confirm that Snap Head is Deputy Dog? -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:19:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- OK, Snap Head is Deputy Dog? -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 23:40:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK, tell me again why I shouldn't out him? -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:23:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- In which case Jim -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:33:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Here's the problem -- FA? -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:35:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Hey Jim, mellow out man! -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 23:00:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- I don't get it Jim -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 17:00:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- You could always apply the Shroom manouvre! nt -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:37:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Each time shroom gets -:- kicked out a snap head shows up, -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 03:01:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Are you just a man of few words -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:41:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Snap Head -:- A man of few words? -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:46:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Great...someone named 'Snap Head' is asking me -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:29:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Still LMAO!! nt -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 13:17:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Snap Head -:- You hate all other extemists? Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:43:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Disbelief in Santa = 'extremist position'?! (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 21:16:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- An impressive leap of logic, Snappy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:47:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ ExTex -:- You and he are RAVING DORKS! (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:06:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Snap Head -:- Who? Rob and Jim? (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:10:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Who? Rob and Jim? (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:18:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ ExTex -:- NEW AGYA? -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:51:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Snap Head -:- ExTex, your NEW AGYA post is pure drivel (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:22:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Rings true to me. D'you ENJOY M's 'poetry' Dog? -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 23:20:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- ExTex, your NEW AGYA post is pure drivel (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:31:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- ExTex, your NEW AGYA post is pure drivel (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:44:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- ExTex, your NEW AGYA post is pure drivel (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 18:20:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hey extex -:- when you gonna change your journal? -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 18:36:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- No Comprenda Senor (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 19:14:42 (GMT)

TeyydaTheTurtle -:- Randy avatars -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 13:29:32 (GMT)

__ buzz -:- Randy avatars -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:39:18 (GMT)

__ __ TeddyTheTurtle -:- Randy avatars -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 17:58:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ ExTex -:- Randy avatars -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 19:52:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Yuck! -:- Clean your sticky keyboard(nt) -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:09:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Randy Spears -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 00:46:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Sir D MyHOTma #1 -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:42:36 (GMT)

Bin Liner -:- The bottom line -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:06:22 (GMT)

__ Bin Bhag Ji -:- The bottom line -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:14:13 (GMT)

__ __ Bin Liner -:- The bottom line -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 22:29:26 (GMT)

__ Marianne -:- Hi Bin -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:00:09 (GMT)

__ buzz -:- The bottom line -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:49:41 (GMT)

__ __ sam(sivan) -:- The bottom line -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:23:19 (GMT)

__ Sir Dave -:- This is not a threat but... -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:08:53 (GMT)

__ __ Peace Sister Carol -:- Make love, not war! nt -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 06:56:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- Yay, sister! Your place or mine? ;) (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 12:39:29 (GMT)

__ Salam -:- A bottle? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:32:21 (GMT)

__ Frankie Howerd -:- Thrice Greetings, Bin (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:24:40 (GMT)

__ Danny -:- The bottom line -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:23:15 (GMT)

__ __ AJW -:- The bottom line -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 14:58:36 (GMT)

__ __ TD -:- The bottom line -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 23:30:45 (GMT)

__ __ Rob -:- Could you be a little more specific? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:34:15 (GMT)

__ __ Jim -:- Great question, Danny! -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:32:19 (GMT)

__ __ __ That is not true -:- You know that EV -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:43:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ ExTex -:- HIS Knowledge?????????????? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 10:17:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Just think about what you're saying -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 10:01:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Thomas Jefferson -:- It's not true that it's m's knowledge -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 06:39:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Danny, that's a really bad answer (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:48:55 (GMT)

__ __ No-one -:- Your post is cult-speak. (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:27:12 (GMT)

__ Nigel -:- Welcome. Do stick around... -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:26:11 (GMT)

Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:21:20 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: 'Talking about death just doesn't fit in' ... sad Message:

This is so sad. A premie has to apologize in advance for saying a few words about the death of an old friend. Think about it..... In remembrance of Nick Knowledge is about life and how precious a gift that is. Talking about the death of someone maybe doesn't seem to fit in. But I would like to take a moment to remember Nick Seymour-Jones and the difference he, and people like him, made to my life. My abiding memory of him is an evening in South London when I had recently received Knowledge - probably 1975. I was amazed and delighted to discover that, with Knowledge you can truly be yourself. It doesn't matter what you look or sound like, what people think - you are who you are. The people, like Nick, who helped bring Knowledge to the west, made great efforts. It changed my life and for that I am grateful. Grateful to the giver of the gift and grateful to those who made it possible for me to receive it. Thanks Nick. Helen Caton Lancaster, UK

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:12:35 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Jim Subject: a bit more from enjoyinglife Message:

'Hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest' A few more words that were posted on the enjoyinglife site about Nick: 'He was a wonderful, energetic and earnest fellow, who achieved a lot in his life. Many people value the hospitals and petrol stations that he designed without even knowing him. For me, and his many friends, down here, his work at Amaroo will endure, as will the many stories we continue to share about how our paths crossed with his and we walked together a while for a purpose that transformed all our lives.'

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:20:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: May your own euology be so empty, Mel Message:

Here's the full ELK eulogy for Nick Seymour-Jones. Tell me this isn't completely Orwellian. Was there even a person there? Could have fooled me: The final stage Those of us who knew Nick Seymour-Jones were shocked to hear of his death last month. Francis Turner sent this obituary to the site. We think it is an appropriate place to publish it in fond memory of him. An unusually drizzly day for the Brisbane dry season added to the sombre feel at the funeral. Here in all simplicity, surrounded by a crowd more used to coming together for happier events, stood Nick's photograph on his coffin. The familiar 'walk-in' music played and the same incredible thick peaceful silence absorbed our own personal thoughts. Nick Seymour-Jones had lived a very similar life to many of us. He found his master in India almost 30 years ago and had with his incredible energy and enthusiasm started on this path of Knowledge. In the early days, like many of us who wanted so desperately to tell people about our wonderful master, Nick worked hard on preparing events for Maharaji; he designed and built the stages for the festivals. These were huge constructions that began with Alexandra Palace, setting Maharaji high above the audience. Nick was an architect. It was rare in those days to meet anyone who had qualified. Most people had dropped out disillusioned with the process and uncertain of the dangerous world that we had inherited. Two major wars, the threat of nuclear destruction and the continuation of the terrible events in Vietnam, these were the reasons why we so desperately wanted to raise Maharaji above the crowd and to let his message be heard. A simple message that peace did exist - inside. The early Seventies were wonderful times: events in Copenhagen, Switzerland, Wembley and Malaga - all had the most incredible stages and holi platforms designed with wonderful care by Nick. Wherever there was an event, at least in Europe, Nick would be working hard on designs. These were enormous projects that had to be constructed in the briefest possible time, using a dedicated work force, whose enthusiasm was not always matched by their skills, in halls that presented many challenges. Stages like the one at the Palazzo del Sport in Rome that grew out of the tiered seating, or the huge construction at the Brussels event. As time went on stages became simpler as we became more attuned to Maharaji's wishes rather than our own aspirations. The funeral service began with a simple acknowledgement of the family that Nick left behind. Kate his wife and his two young children. He died on 1 August after a very painful and prolonged battle with cancer. I had seen him at the satellite event about a month before, but Nick had been ill for over a year. Nick had lived in an ashram in the early days, a place where people could come and listen and learn about Maharaji, where people dedicated their time to practice, to service and to supporting one another in their very early days with Knowledge. These were days before videos when people spoke at nightly gatherings with sincerity, from their hearts. Nick was always inspiring and encouraging. Nick who had lived in England till the late Eighties came to Australia via New Zealand, following his heart. Here he helped with the Amaroo project designing the first purpose-built Knowledge hall in the world, a most comfortable and beautifully simple hall with a simple stage. It is set in the outstanding surroundings of Ivory's Rock - a place which Nick came to love and to devote so much of his time and energy. Here Nick found that journey's end. He was a wonderful, energetic and earnest fellow, who achieved a lot in his life. Many people value the hospitals and petrol stations that he designed without even knowing him. For me, and his many friends, down here, his work at Amaroo will endure, as will the many stories we continue to share about how our paths crossed with his and we walked together a while for a purpose that transformed all our lives. So what is Ms. Turner really talking here? Nick was a good devotee. Now shut up and pass the ammunition. All's not for not, Nick's work at Amaroo will endure! Sickening...

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:15:35 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Jim Subject: one sick dude Message:

You have become one sick dude. Anything for the glory of your head trip.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 19:20:46 (GMT) From: Joe Email: None To: Jim Subject: What is more sad...... Message:

I agree that the apology for mentioning the death of another person is sad. The other thing that is sad is that one waits in vain to hear from Helen that Nick Seymour-Jones did anything other, in his entire life, than be a premie and do service, and his relation to 'the giver of the gift.' Did Nick have a family, did he have a career, what were his interests in life? Whom does he leave behind that mourn for him? Did he have a wife, a lover, kids? Are there any condolences due to them or to his friends? What kind of a person was Nick, besides being premie that is, and why doesn't Helen think it was important to include any of that? See, that is what is really sad in a place like Enjoyinglife.org and something that appears not to have changed at all since the 70s in the Maharaji cult. Human life and relationships between people are basically devalued in the premie orthodox world, except in relation to Maharaji and knowledge. This is right in line with all the families and relationships that have been trashed in the Maharaji cult-world over the years, as has been reported here in excruciating detail. I remember as a premie I missed my grandfather's funeral because I wasn't allowed by the ashram to spend the money to go. The general excuse was that the resources belonged to Maharaji and not to me, and that I was indulging in mind by wanting to go to my grandfather's funeral. His death was seen only in relationship to service to Maharaji. He, and service to him, was always held above all else. Really, it was my mother and my family that I really cared about and wanted to be with, but in the cult-world those things were of lesser value. And this came right from the behavior of Maharaji. His cavalier uncarring about his premies came to stark focus when premies died. Remember when those premies were murdered in the ashram in Florida? Maharaji sent us all a letter saying there wasn't any such thing as 'inner agya' which is what the person who committed the murder claimed to have. [By the way, this would be a great letter to get and put on the website. Although M says there isn't 'inner agya,' he emphasizes there IS external agya, something, again, Elan Vital and Maharaji would rather people not know about or be reminded of.] But in that letter Maharaji mentioned not one word about the tragedy of a couple of ashram sisters losing their lives in their youth. Also, I understand Maharaji did not bother to contact the families of the women either, despite the fact that they had supposedly dedicated their lives to him, and relied on him to 'take care of them.' How many of the families of the premies who committed suicide over the years got so much as a card from his perfectness? I realize there aren't ashrams anymore in the Maharaji cult, but the same devalued viewpoint (seeing everything, at least publicly in the cult-world, in relationship to Maharaji) still appears to be in full swing, if Enjoyinglife.org is a reflection of what premies are really like.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 20:06:39 (GMT) From: X Email: None To: Joe Subject: What is more Message:

You can really only speak for yourself. It is a mistake to extrapolate personal experience onto somebody elses life. To some people life itself is more important than actions. To others actions are all that matters. Yes, that is a central point of debate and on that matter reasonable people seem to disagree. The answer is elusive as it always has been ... X

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 05:38:45 (GMT) From: bill Email: None To: Joe Subject: I did have that letter. I will check..nt Message:

dfhj

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 23:02:19 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Joe Subject: That says it all Joe Message:

The thing I had the most problem with was exactly around this territory when I walked. And then to realize not only just HOW much I had to learn about this was frightening, but the most mind blowing of all was realizing that those people who didn't have any bogus spirituality in their heads learnt deeper lessons about life, way deeper than I or any premie I knew had reached. So that whole premie concept about 'realizations' being a natural only for premies at the most constant level, was not only mildly innaccurate, it was an inverse of the truth. But then like so many lessons learnt since walking, the irony is almost palpable. Maybe it's like the old one of, more doctors get into drugs, more anaylysts have breakdowns,...... more spiritual people know less than the people they look down on. Great post Joe, and the greatest problem around gm articulated really well. If you deny the validity of your life, in all its colours, then you're denying yourself. Deny yourself and you're fucked, putty in the hands of......blah de blah Also Jim if you're reading this, another great sparkler in the firework pile, although how you keep it up is beyond me.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 11:03:00 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: ham Subject: Yes ham, Message:

Hi ham, I came to the same conclusion about my 'realisations through knowledge'- not worth the paper they're scrawled on. One of the things that helped me see things in perspective was when I spent a few weeks helping to look after an old, non-premie friend from the 60s, when he was dying a few years ago. In that situation, all my premie wisdom was as much use as a fart in a bottle. It became very clear that understanding and wisdom were not the property of Maharaji. Death, as has been pointed out below, is not on the 'Premie' menu. It's assigned to a footnote of 'matters not pertaining to knowledge'. It sits alongside loving your friends and family, working to help the environment, helping the needy, taking your work seriously, enjoying sex, and many other aspects of life, which, because 'they don't focus on knowledge and Maharaji', are somehow considered 'secondary activities in life', and not really important, compared to serving the living lord with every breath. The further I get away from it all, the wierder it looks. Anth the distant

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 17:51:30 (GMT) From: Jethro Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'Talking about death just doesn't fit in' ... sad Message:

Nick was the house-father of one of the ashrams I lived in and ruled with the arm of religiosity and 'maharai said's. The mahatmas, when they came to London hated staying there(except Ira Woods who made us rip out the sauna beacuse it was distraction)and called the place the 'house of religion'. (I was {I think) the first premie who MOVED ashram by my own agya. Padarthanand had a go at me about it, so when I challenged him to give me satsang about it, he couldn't.) Yes, he(Nick) did do alot of work for m and was one those who helped him(m) become what he is. I am sure the world is better place without him. Jethro

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 07:59:16 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jethro Subject: 'Talking about death just doesn't fit in' ... sad Message:

Jeth, That's really insensitive. Loads of us were gung-ho fanatics in the old days and helped M become what he is today. People change. I think your comment about the world being a better place without him is way out of line. I don't think you could say that to Kate and the kids. Maybe you were having a bad day when you wrote it Jeth'. Anth the still sad

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 22:42:03 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Jethro Subject: Oooh, spikey Jed, but my take on him was similar Message:

There were a few premies who guaranteed I got away from the org as sharpish as possible, Glen Whitaker, Bullent, Milky Cole and Nick Seymour-Jones, but Nick around the time I 'got' knowledge especially I found insufferable. In all my life I'd never met anyone, so stiff, po-faced, superior and empty, and it was him especially that got me into distancing myself from dlm as much as possible, although the other three were'nt far behind, I later added Irene Hall to that list. And in that period of the bad suits, he was just about the worst, and he had plenty of competition as I remember it? Does anyone have photos from that period? can remember a mate of mine who always took the piss out of the guru cult bigtime, the day he saw the suits in a photo, probably in 'And It Is Divine' mag, will always be etched into my mind, how he stopped himself from pissing in his pants with laughter I'll never know. The suits left him speechless, even more than the rest of the shenanigans. Mind you seeing how embarrassed I was then isn't too comforting a thought, I blamed it all on gm's naivete about orgs, assumed the culture around was purely a premie number! Re Nick, my one premie friend told me tonight that he did change a lot when he got twinned and migrated to Australasia, thank god for that, as least he got a partial life.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:22:11 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Jim Subject: Illustrates how cold M really is Message:

Here you have the death of a long time premie who contributed massive amounts of time and talent to Maharaji and Maharaji's organization,DLM/EV Are formal condolences sent to his widow and family? Did Mr. Rawat attend his funeral? He certainly has the means to get there. Has Elan Vital checked on his widow and young children to make sure they have the means to survive in relative comfort? After all the guy designed and helped build many stages for programs and festivals. I bet the answer is NO! I bet Maharaji hasn't even picked up the telephone. The Master/devotee relationship isn't a relationship at all. It's allowing the parasite Maharaji to worm his way into your heart thru fantasy and delusion(he really loves you) and allowing him to eat your very soul from the inside out.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:35:57 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Tonette Subject: Illustrates how cold M really is Message:

How crass can they get? That 'eulogy' was NOTHING MORE THAN MORE BLISSFUL SATSANG very thinly disguised. Typical. Never let an opportunity to hype the scam go by. Sheesh! 'You too can waste your life in service to the great one!'

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 03:03:30 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: ExTex Subject: He obviously did Message:

waste his whole life in service. I only hope that the victims here, his young children don't pay the price! I really hate the belittling of his life and the disregard to his family. His euology was nothing but twisted satsang. It made me puke!!!!1

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:06:25 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: My prediction Message:

I predict that ELK will not have any further follow-up posts to this one, that that would look too much like a conversation and one focussed on another person other than the cult leader. Both things bad.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:43:41 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'Talking about death just doesn't fit in' ... sad Message:

Your post is definitely in poor taste this time, Jim. Of course, though, I for one am not really surprised. Surprise me, though! Be bold! Apologise and retract it! Mel

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:44:44 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Could you address my post to you? Message:

Maybe you didn't see it but on the thread 'What A Year', about three quarters down, I posted to you something that I would be very interested in reading your response to. 'The Water Analogy' is the title. Could you check it out and respond before that thread becomes inactive? (If you see this post.) THANKS.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:43:20 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Nick Seymour-Jones Message:

Nick's death is very sad. I knew Nick very well when he lived in London, and we did lots of voluntary work together. He was a strong character, and like lots of us, a product of the 60s. He was always full of energy, had a big heart, was honest, kind and spoke his mind. My condolences and thoughts go to his widow Kate, and his children, who I never met. I'm certain Nicks death will leave a big hole in all your lives, and I hope, with time, you'll all be able to pick up the pieces and carry on. I've got lots of happy memories of Nick. Both Dot and I send our love and sympathy Kate. Anth the sad

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:15:55 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Mel Bourne Subject: Not poor taste - I think that is sad too... Message:

As Jim says, the premie does apologise in advance for just wanting to share some ordinary decent human stuff. The celebration of another human being's life - even after they have gone - is not part of EV philosophy, unless that human being is a 'Master'. And notice too how to celebrate their friend, the premie can only do it in this warped, devaluing sort of way by tithing some gratitude to Maharaji. Yuk! Truly sad, in my opinion...

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:46:56 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Definitely poor taste, and I'll tell you why.... Message:

...Jim is clearly riding roughshod over the way this premie expresses her grief. There is no respect or mention of the genuine and heartfelt feelings expressed only a cheap political ex-premie point designed to humiliate this person at a time of personal sorrow. Nigel, you've gone down in my estimation considerably too, describing the expression as 'warped'. I certainly expected more sensitivity appropriate to the occassion from you! Salam, I am aware of the gist of Jim's post, despite your patronising comment, and I certainly will NOT shut up if I think that Jim (or anyone else on this Forum) exhibits unduly callous and critical remarks about another human being greiving over a friend's death. It's entirely inappropriate under the circumstances, and you (and they) well know it! At least, Anth, your post was sensitive, sincere and heartfelt, despite the differences of opinion you and Nick must have obviously had. Mel

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 15:30:16 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Mel Bourne Subject: 'Your estimation' of me is your own problem.. Message:

Nigel, you've gone down in my estimation considerably too, describing the expression as 'warped'. I certainly expected more sensitivity appropriate to the occassion from you! It's fortunate for me that you are not my moral judge, Mel, if my last post can affect you so. Try looking at like this: If Jim or anyone stood up at a premie's funeral while their friend was making a farewell speech and commented in the way he has here... - Well, he would deserve to be taken outside and given a good kicking (IMO). Fine! - Poor taste, wrong place, wrong moment etc. However, enjoyinglife.org site is NOT a funeral, it is NOT a private place for premie friends and family only: the site is for PUBLIC consumption. (It is for the public to freely read but, sadly, not a place for them to post their comments.) In this context Jim's post is fair comment - especially since it shows NO disrespect for the departed, nor for the friend's healthy wish to lament their passing. It was an expression of sadness (which I share) that the piece need be so Maharaji-oriented, as if the worth of the deceased should be measured by services rendered. (Would it otherwise have even been published??) Have you never read a letter in, say, the Times or Guardian (or antipodean equivalent) where somebody complains about a previously published obituary, whether because of its factual accuracy, its tone or style of presentation? Fairly common practice, no 'riding roughshod over' the feelings of the obituarist (- moreover this is a DIFFERENT website, for God's sake -), no disrespect for the deceased shown, and certainly no poor taste. (And, yes, I think 'warped' is an appropriate word, not in a 'sicko' sense, but in its literal 'distorted' meaning).

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:00:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Nigel Subject: FA! NOW NIGEL THREATENED ME TOO!!!!! Message:

Here's what he said: If Jim or anyone stood up at a premie's funeral while their friend was making a farewell speech and commented in the way he has here... - Well, he would deserve to be taken outside and given a good kicking (IMO). Fine! - Poor taste, wrong place, wrong moment etc. Nigel knows that I was kicked once by my high school basketball coach for eating all the oranges when I was sitting on the bench. He told me to pick up the peels and when I bent over he kicked me in the ass. But Nigel knew that. So what's going on here? Obviously, we need some new exes around here. Deal with it.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:44:29 (GMT) From: A dark premie presence Email: None To: Jim Subject: throws his serious 2 cents in Message:

I laugh at you, he he, . . nevermind

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:21:28 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Jim Subject: Nigel, you are banned for life! Message:

This life and the next. There may be circumstances in which we all deserve a good kicking, but even mentioning them here hypothetically constitutes serious abuse. Jim might feel intimidated from ever posting again thanks to your carelessness... ;)

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 16:17:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Forum Administrator Subject: Thanks, and kick him in the ass on the way out (nt Message:

fffff

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:17:48 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Definitely poor taste, and I'll tell you why.... Message:

I did not ask you to shut up. I was talking to the jocker by the name Tim. He seem to be some weasel that jumps up and down everytime you say something. I was not going to get involved if he was not a jerk. Death is difficult to deal with and is a taboo to talk about. Tell me why? Maybe Jim choose the wroung thing to express his opinion, but is it deniable that Helen is being apologetic about something as important as that? What is wroung with showing emotions, when someone dear to you passes out? That is what I do not understand. AJW did it, and I respect him for that.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:22:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Salam Subject: Excuse me, Salam? Helloooooooooo? Message:

Salam, Tim Matheson is a parody! Can't you tell? Of course he is, he's a brilliant put-on that's just a bit further beyond the pale than most of the real cult members. I don't know who he is but he's funny enough. And yes, you're to be forgiven. It's so hard parodying something as bizarre as the cult of the former teenage Lord of the Universe. But that's what he is. And no, there is absolutely nothing wrong with me commenting on how this cult handles death. If not me, who? If not now, when?

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 00:02:08 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jim Subject: Excuse me, Salam? Helloooooooooo? Message:

I suspected he was. No offence. Death or no death. Give it to them.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 00:18:24 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Salam Subject: psss! Message:

I think I got carried away because my broyher in law died 2 weeks ago and TIM looked that he was out of line.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:04:18 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: It's you, I'm afraid, who's disgusting here, Mel Message:

Mel, What would it take for you to be honest for a change? Certainly not the something as simple as the death of another premie. That sure didn't do it. What I see, Mel, is you trying vainly to cop a cheap sanctimonious feel off Mr. Jones' death in a blatant and disgusting way. What are you all about, Mel? What should your premie friend write when you die? That she 'really shouldn't be bothering anyone with this but Mel helped me realize how much Maharaji matters in my life because he is the MASTER....'? You're blinded by your cult involvement, asshole. You anonymous, creepy little crawler.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:49:22 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Jim Subject: God help us Message:

To talk with Mel it's like conversing with Shroom minus all the satsang. The anger is there though in much bigger quantity.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 17:11:19 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Tonette Subject: God help us Message:

Tonette In this case I think that my anger is quite legitimate! This isn't a premie/ex-premie issue, it is a matter of gross disrespect for another human being's grief, and that makes me far, far, angrier than any comments ex's generally make about Maharaji. The comments made by Jim completely lack any dignity. Mel

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 20:34:01 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: God help us Message:

Mel, All Jim did was observe how taboo the subject of death is in your cult. You have to apologize for grieving before you do. Like so: Knowledge is about life and how precious a gift that is. Talking about the death of someone maybe doesn't seem to fit in. So, death doesn't fit in to a premies world, eh? Let's all just sing to the glory of life. 'Sorry for the distraction, brothers and sisters, but somebody I care about, well, died. Don't mean to rain on anybody's parade.' Then sanctimonious, stupid you steps in, climbs up on his podium, and pours egg all over his own face by COMPLETELY missing the point, instead taking an opportunity to, once again, profess his ignorance of what's actually being expressed. Leave it to you, Mel.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 00:43:44 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jerry Subject: God help us from ex premie cant Message:

What a pathetic attempt at a white wash, Jerry, you make a poor representative for 'ex' damage control. You attempt to justify the unjustifiable and compound the situation with your brand of gratutitous personal insults and predictable 'ex' premie cant, but fail miserably! Mel

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:57:58 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: God help us from ex premie cant Message:

Sorry, but I disagree. He made perfect sense....and quite clearly. Don't mean to gang up on you but to use an eulogy to talk MOSTLY ABOUT SOMEONE ELSE (M) is more than a little tasteless as is apologizing for bringing up the subject of a friends death to those that knew him. 'Sorry to put you in your mind with the REALITY of life, but this person died...etc' Very odd.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:11:40 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: What grief, you stupid, stupid premie??????????? Message:

Mel, You're not making a bit of sense. None. Here's Ms. Caton's post again: In remembrance of Nick Knowledge is about life and how precious a gift that is. Talking about the death of someone maybe doesn't seem to fit in. But I would like to take a moment to remember Nick Seymour-Jones and the difference he, and people like him, made to my life. My abiding memory of him is an evening in South London when I had recently received Knowledge - probably 1975. I was amazed and delighted to discover that, with Knowledge you can truly be yourself. It doesn't matter what you look or sound like, what people think - you are who you are. The people, like Nick, who helped bring Knowledge to the west, made great efforts. It changed my life and for that I am grateful. Grateful to the giver of the gift and grateful to those who made it possible for me to receive it. Thanks Nick. Helen Caton Lancaster, UK Where is there a single expression of anything even slightly akin to grief in that, Mel? All she says, you stupid idiot, is that she has an 'abiding' memory of him one night in 1975 -- oh yeah, she had recently received Knowledge. Let's not forget the important stuff. Grief??? You're a total, absolute, motherfucking idiot. And beside that, dummy, you never did address my point. What do you say about Ms. Caton's apparent discomfort discussing her sorely-missed friend?

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 23:26:46 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: What grief, you stupid, stupid premie??????????? Message:

She may or not be expriencing grief, but that makes your comments no less contemptible, because others definitely are. Thats my last word on this issue, Jim Mel

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 00:55:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: You might not actually BE stupid, Mel Message:

But you sure act that way. As a lawyer, I'd be embarrassed to make your arguments, they're so dumb. Maybe that's why you're anonymous, I guess. Figures.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 00:30:13 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Last words, Mel? Message:

I realise Jim is your main target in all this, but you've bad-mouthed a few of us here for no good reason that you've yet explained. Please read the other posts on this thread, calm down and think a bit.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 08:47:21 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Last words, Mel? Message:

Hi Nigel et al.- It is very difficult for me to read threads like this where one person (Mel, in this case) makes a contrary statement and immediately gets challenged and criticized from all sides - including getting criticized for not answering all of the posts! Isn't it obvious that Jim's post (as well as the autistic posts above) hit a sore spot in Mel and that he reacted to that? Can't we just accept that it's an upsetting topic for him? I feel like you all are poking and prodding at him to get even MORE reactions out of him. Personally, although I am no arbiter of 'taste', I found Jim's post to be a bit shocking because there was no warning that it contained anything but the usual stuff he brings over from ELK. What a way to find out that someone that many people here had known had died! I also think that using the woman's post as an example of 'premie think' was way off target, simply because it is hard to write letters of sympathy in the first place - I know mine are almost always very awkward and generally contain platitudes. Frankly, I think there are things which are far more important than the premie/ex-premie debate, and that make it clear that we are all just people. Death is one of them - along with serious illness, serious accidents, child abuse, suicide, and a lot of other things I can't think of right now. I know I get mad when premies minimize the child abuse and suicide that has occurred in Maharaji's organization, and I would guess that Mel might have felt that Jim's post minimized Nick's death, and thus reacted accordingly. I am not a mind-reader, just saying how I would have felt. Sincerely - Love, Katie

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:58:39 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Fuck off, Katie Message:

You're too 'sweet' to see clearly.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:27:46 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Actually, it's a eulogy Message:

But it's still apologetic. 'I'm sorry to bust in here with talk of death, when we're all gathered to celebrate life.' As if death and the emotions we feel surrounding it aren't a part of life. Premies make me sick.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 10:49:28 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Jerry Subject: Test of the cult/non-cult difference Message:

Agreed, Jerry, And if I felt is was worth pursuing any kind of discussion with Mel, I would point out the following... There is a simple test of entitlement for a cult eulogy on enjoyinglife.org: Did this person still show love for and loyalty to Maharaji? Over the last few years there have been quite a few tributes and fond memories posted on this forum following the deaths of both ex-premies and premies still 'practising'. Would ELK post a memorial to an ex-premie who had died? Of course not! - it's a cult...

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:41:09 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Jerry Subject: Jerry, exactly the point that Mel Burn avoids Message:

As if death and the emotions we feel surrounding it aren't a part of life And this would be the major point of this thread. A point that Mel Bourne refuses to acknowledge and,instead, tries to obsfucate with his demanding that Jim apologizes. No, the Cult talks about life with a tone of wisdom, but when it comes done to it the Cult avoids life altogether. And think about Maharaji who is really a prisoner in his own cocoon where he can't leave the house without an entourage, a detailed itinerary and body guards. Is it really worth it? Oh, that's right, Maharaji gives up his freedom so he can give so much to the premies.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:43:45 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's you, I'm afraid, who's disgusting here, Mel Message:

C'mon Jim, you're like a stupid little kid who when found out, tries to bully his way out by bluster, in this case, about me and what you suspect my motives to be. You know very well that your remark was insensitive and reprehensible under the circumstances and now you masqurade your callousness by claiming a spurious legitimacy to examine the 'cult's' response to death. If Salam, in his post, could see that your remarks were inappropriate don't you think that your 'objective and impartial observer' (you know who I mean, don't you Jim?) would think exactly the same? Come on, Jim, forget an public apology, I know that's too much to ask, but how about a face saving retraction? It may show you in a far better light than you think. How about it? Mel

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 22:55:34 (GMT) From: Roger eDrek Email: drek@oz.net To: Mel Bourne Subject: It's you, I'm afraid, who's disgusting here, Mel Message:

Screw you, Mel. Jim, Joe, Jerry and everyone else is correct in saying that the Cult did not nor does it still deal with real life issues like living and dying other than pour that artificially colored syrupy Maharaji centric philosophy over everything for the purpose of living like an ostrich with it's head in the sand. It sucked - growing up and living in the cult. Joe's story about not being able to go to his grandfather's funeral is just one of many of how the Cult was and still is so fucking far out that it makes people crazy by missing the normal and unfortunate milestones of life. Yes, your Master, Maharaji, talks a fine game about This Life and all that crap, but it's really an avoidance strategy. Just ignore those unpleasant realities and stay focused on Maharaji. Consider this ELK contribution first posted by Rob: Knowledge I realised, the less I have of this world, the more dependent I become on Knowledge. The more dependent I become on Knowledge, the stronger I get within me. The stronger I get within me, the more I enjoy this world. I used to think that I have to protect myself from this world by closing up, but I discovered that I couldn't close all the openings I had, and anyway, if I did I ended up suffocating. Knowledge freed me from such limiting concepts. Practising Knowledge made me feel so strong, so clear, that I can meet the world wide open now and laugh... and enjoy! . Eleni Kyriakopoulou Athens, Greece What's the basic meaning of this? No, it ain't Freedom thanks to the Knowledge from the MASTER Maharaji. The real message is that the world and living in the world is a scary thing and if we just close our eyes to it completely and focus on Maharaji everything will be OK. This is brainwashing! It's crap! It's sick stuff to keep having that philosophy pounded into your head year after fucking year. Your cult and your MASTER are SICK! I'm glad I got away, but the effects from the brainwashing have not yet gone away.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 03:19:00 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: It's you, I'm afraid, who's disgusting here, Mel Message:

Couldn't agree more. I didn't live in an ashram but I did live in a very formal structured premie multi-dwelling commune. My grandfather also died at the time and I also was not allowed to go to the funeral because it would have been a waste of money, time and only put me in MY MIND! The satsang crap went along the lines of 'It isn't as important as fulfilling my obligations to M. NEVER DELAY IN ATTENDING SATSANG!' I wish that I was kidding!

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 00:57:58 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: So what, Roger.... Message:

You're not trying to justify Jim's crass behaviout too, are you? You can quote who you like and invoke the phoney intellectual authority of all ex premies you care to name, but that still doesn't cover up Jim's stupidity. Shame on you and other 'ex' commentators who have the audacity to perpetuate his defense when you all know that his comments are really inappropriate on this matter Mel

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:51:55 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel are you on drugs today or what? Message:

You really seem to have lost it on this one, what's the beef? There's gotta be something else going on, normally I can follow your 'logic' but you obviously haven't even been reading the posts in this thread. My cynicism suggests that you see the death of a premie as somehow sacrosanct, even when it's in the context of a completely different topic or are you like this around death full stop?.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 20:57:11 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: That's my cue! Message:

Mel: don't you think that your 'objective and impartial observer' (you know who I mean, don't you Jim?) would think exactly the same? JohnT: Have I got Bad News for you, Mel! I'm neither a premie, nor an ex-premie. Just an ordinary guy who married someone very peripherally involved with the cult. Jim's points strike me as being made with vigour and very concisely. But other ex's have fleshed out the details in a way that leaves no real doubt in my mind and heart. Your filthy cult cannot deal with real emotion; the reality of bereavement and of a hijacked life is something you cannot afford to take on board, Mel. Because you would need to take a look at yourself; at your foolishness in following a false god; and your guilt in spreading the disease and apologising for it. You can't do that Mel, despite your years of 'spiritual practice'. Because all you've learned is to stick your head up your arse and admire the view.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 01:04:11 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: JohnT Subject: ..and what a poor cue it is, too,,, Message:

Phrases like ...'Your filthy cult.. hardly indicate to me that your are an 'impartial observer'. Indeed you are highly biased and partial! I think you've shot yourself in the foot on that one, John. Sorry, no credibility. Mel

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 12:09:42 (GMT) From: JohnT Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Mel's credibility is zero. Message:

Mel, Rawat has run a racket for years claiming to be GOD - and lately has taken to trying to deny he ever made such claims. And you even tried to support his denial here. But then you conceded that Rawat had made claims to divinity, thanks to Joe's remarkable perserverence in questioning you. Fair play to you, you conceded Rawat to be a liar. The objective truth is that Mr Prem Pal Rawat is a liar and a false messiah - and you are his deluded tool. Like it or not, Mel, the truth is that Rawat runs a filthy cult with your support. It is to be expected that an objective observer would notice.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 14:02:10 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: JohnT Subject: Mel's credibility. Message:

Hi JohnT, As someone who only left the cult about 2 years ago, and prior to that, spent 25 years in it, I still have plenty of Premie friends, who I keep in touch with. In fact, this weekend, a posse of them are camping in my apartment when they come to see Maharaji in Paris. I don't have a problem with this at all. My wife is also going to see Maharaji. If they bring the subject up, I happily give them my opinions. In many ways I'm still connected to the cult, through my premie friends. They're not all brain-dead morons who can't think. There's only one area of life where they have problems sorting things out. Anyway, to get to the point, since I've been posting on the forum I've had conversations with several premies on several occasions. Mostly they disappear just when the conversation has become interesting, however, there are a couple of premies who occasionaly post here with whom I've always had, what's seemed to me, a fair and honest exchange. Mel is one of these people. I've had exchanges with him, or her, on a couple of topics- one is Jagdeo, and the other is, 'what is a cult and is Mel in one?' On both occassions Mel answered my questions honestly. He has consistently condemned Jagdeos crimes, never tried to make excuses for him, and on the other topic, admitted being in a cult (I think he said, 'By my definition', which we had already discussed.) So, to be fair to Mel, I have to say he has credibility. He's not abusive, he answers questions honestly, and speaks his mind. If he carries on thinking for himself like this, he'll be out of the cult in no time. Just thought I'd add my two centimes worth, Anth, the premies pal.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 21, 2000 at 10:44:48 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: AJW Subject: Thanks Anth (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:54:03 (GMT) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Definitely poor taste, and I'll tell you why.... Message:

You tell 'em Mel. Warped is being very kind. They just don't seem to understand we are less than nothing as individuals-serving and being grateful to our LORD MAHARAJI is all that matters. I surrender to HIS LOTUS FEETS!!

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 11:24:50 (GMT) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Agree with Mel Message:

So what that the writer Jim refers to- does no more than treat Mr. Seymour-Jones as a no more than a vehicle to OUR MASTER-that's what we all became when we surrendered to HIM. We are nothing. We are slime just lucky to know that LORD MAHARAJI is on this planet. Right on, Mel!!

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:56:56 (GMT) From: Mel Bourne Email: None To: Tim Matheson Subject: Get real, Tim... Message:

We are slime just lucky to know that LORD MAHARAJI is on this planet. .. you may very well be slime, with your sarcastic and very leading comments. Mel

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:35:42 (GMT) From: Tim Matheson Email: None To: Mel Bourne Subject: Get real, Tim../Just Surrender, Mel -M luvs us Message:

Do you remember those days when we chased HIM all over for one of HIS GLORIOUS FUNDRAISERS, where we could KISS HIS LOTUS FEETS and how we used to laugh about the IRS not finding out about all that cash we gave HIM.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:06:29 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Tim Matheson Subject: Agree with Mel Message:

I do not think that the writer Jim is trying to bring down Mr Seymor in his post. Because if the writer Jim was doing that I would have had a go at him. Instead the writer Jim is making a point of a post by Mrs. Helen Canton on September 17 regarding Mr Seymor. The point that the writer Jim is trying to bring out is the fact that Mrs. Helen is being apologitic about something which the writer Jim find most important, in this case the death of a close friend. So can you answer the question: why does Mrs Helen have to apologize about talking about the death of Mr Seymor when Mr Seymor appears to be a close friend of Mrs Helen? If you can't find an answer, then me, the writer Jim and everyone else will appreciate it if you can shutup instead. This is not a mud restling competition.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:34:59 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: Jim Subject: 'Talking about death just doesn't fit in' ... sad Message:

hi jim, do you know the circumstances of nick,s death at all. as i new him for a while before he climbed the ladder and was shocked to read your post regards buzz

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 12:26:13 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: buzz Subject: Yeah, what happened Message:

The last I heard of Nick was from Dave Punshon (sorry if I misspelled that) who said he was married and living in Australia. I knew the girl he married and thought they'd make a happy couple. Huh, strange thinking about this because it was twenty odd years ago when I knew these people. A bit like going back in time. Everybody knew Nick Seymour-Light. Everybody will remember him and I'm sure people here would like to know what happened to him.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:35:27 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Yeah, what happened Message:

Those of us who knew Nick Seymour-Jones were shocked to hear of his death last month. Francis Turner sent this obituary to the site. We think it is an appropriate place to publish it in fond memory of him. An unusually drizzly day for the Brisbane dry season added to the sombre feel at the funeral. Here in all simplicity, surrounded by a crowd more used to coming together for happier events, stood Nick's photograph on his coffin. The familiar 'walk-in' music played and the same incredible thick peaceful silence absorbed our own personal thoughts. Nick Seymour-Jones had lived a very similar life to many of us. He found his master in India almost 30 years ago and had with his incredible energy and enthusiasm started on this path of Knowledge. In the early days, like many of us who wanted so desperately to tell people about our wonderful master, Nick worked hard on preparing events for Maharaji; he designed and built the stages for the festivals. These were huge constructions that began with Alexandra Palace, setting Maharaji high above the audience. Nick was an architect. It was rare in those days to meet anyone who had qualified. Most people had dropped out disillusioned with the process and uncertain of the dangerous world that we had inherited. Two major wars, the threat of nuclear destruction and the continuation of the terrible events in Vietnam, these were the reasons why we so desperately wanted to raise Maharaji above the crowd and to let his message be heard. A simple message that peace did exist - inside. The early Seventies were wonderful times: events in Copenhagen, Switzerland, Wembley and Malaga - all had the most incredible stages and holi platforms designed with wonderful care by Nick. Wherever there was an event, at least in Europe, Nick would be working hard on designs. These were enormous projects that had to be constructed in the briefest possible time, using a dedicated work force, whose enthusiasm was not always matched by their skills, in halls that presented many challenges. Stages like the one at the Palazzo del Sport in Rome that grew out of the tiered seating, or the huge construction at the Brussels event. As time went on stages became simpler as we became more attuned to Maharaji's wishes rather than our own aspirations. The funeral service began with a simple acknowledgement of the family that Nick left behind. Kate his wife and his two young children. He died on 1 August after a very painful and prolonged battle with cancer. I had seen him at the satellite event about a month before, but Nick had been ill for over a year. Nick had lived in an ashram in the early days, a place where people could come and listen and learn about Maharaji, where people dedicated their time to practice, to service and to supporting one another in their very early days with Knowledge. These were days before videos when people spoke at nightly gatherings with sincerity, from their hearts. Nick was always inspiring and encouraging. Nick who had lived in England till the late Eighties came to Australia via New Zealand, following his heart. Here he helped with the Amaroo project designing the first purpose-built Knowledge hall in the world, a most comfortable and beautifully simple hall with a simple stage. It is set in the outstanding surroundings of Ivory's Rock - a place which Nick came to love and to devote so much of his time and energy. Here Nick found that journey's end. He was a wonderful, energetic and earnest fellow, who achieved a lot in his life. Many people value the hospitals and petrol stations that he designed without even knowing him. For me, and his many friends, down here, his work at Amaroo will endure, as will the many stories we continue to share about how our paths crossed with his and we walked together a while for a purpose that transformed all our lives. From enjoyinglife.org. Type death in the search engine

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 18:01:18 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Salam Subject: Yeah, what happened Message:

Very sad that he's left two young children. And Kate, she is strong but this won't be easy for her and it must have been very difficult for all of them to watch Nick slowly going. My sympathies certainly go to Kate who I always felt a soft spot for; and the children, who I don't know of course.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 00:07:55 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Everyone Subject: So where are the 'grateful' exes? Message:

I have lost count of the times bored premie visitors idling the web have dropped by to damn the ex-premies posting here as 'bitter and twisted losers' who 'never got it', or whatever... But given that the overwhelming majority of one-time premies are now ex-premies (90% by reliable estimates), and that web access is no longer the province of the few, and that presumably anybody who has ever been involved with the Superior Slime-Mould in Person might still be interested in talking about it all, then... ...where are the grateful exes? The ones who appreciated, benefitted, gained something from their involvement? (I can think of only two who have posted here: Bobby and Keith. As I recall Bobby still felt M deserved some credit, as did Keith in his 'Vacol' incarnation - but even Keith seemed to have developed a negative stance going by his last visit here, especially in his willingness to acknowledge the unspoken authoritarianism that pervades the cult.) Everyone else, rather than bitter and twisted, seem more hurt and disillusioned - though still anything but grateful. Recent exes are justifiably angry. Others like me are mostly just intrigued and fascinated by what the fuck was that all about, and how do these things happen so easily to ordinary people? What is really going on? etc.. But given that so many long-timers have slipped the net in the last year or two - largely through the presence of this forum - and continue to do so almost on a weekly basis (Hi sam!) it seems fair to conclude that: Premies, if they live long enough, live to regret it. Discuss... (One thousand words by Friday )

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 08:51:31 (GMT) From: Joy Email: joyfenwick@onetel.net.uk To: Nigel Subject: Only for My Friends Message:

Hi Nigel. Nice to see you generating such interesting threads. About the only thing I’m really grateful for regarding the almost ten years I spent in the ashram and trying to practice Knowledge are the wonderful, sensitive, truly interesting spiritually-oriented people I met on the journey (and I don’t mean M or the mahatmas!). I don’t think that experience could’ve been duplicated in any other life journey and many of them are my very best friends to this day. So in that sense I don’t regret it. It also allowed me to escape the drudgery of having to have a 9to5 job “in the world” at a time in my life (19) when that seemed a terrible bore and just about anything else would have been more interesting. (Never mind the fact that I worked around 10 hours a day, seven days a week for many years for their damned organization. Somehow, with the spiritual commitment and surrounded by likeminded souls it didn’t seem like real work at the time.) So in that sense it was a real escapist adventure. Fortunately I came out of that with a reasonable job skill (graphics/typesetting) which I have been able to utilize in various ways ever since, so I’m luckier than the rest, in that respect. In retrospect it’s all totally ridiculous and a major waste of time/life energy, of course, but at the time, I thought living in the ashram was sort of fun. It allowed me a sense of family and belonging (albeit a false one), we got to take many holidays a year (if you can call driving nonstop 27 hours six to a car and sleeping on the bare concrete floor at the Peace Plant in Houston with hundreds of others a holiday). Now, back to my 1,500 word Open U college essay due next week (yes, finally doing college at age 47 -- thank you Maharaji for wasting my entire twenties!) I’m seriously thinking about writing this all up somehow as sociological research and trying to get some college credit for it. (Some colleges allow you to do that sort of thing.) Perhaps I can get some credit for all the Grateful Dead concerts as well, while I’m at it!

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:13:47 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Joy Subject: Only for My Friends Message:

Hi Joy, Great to see you. Hmm, I seem to be drawing all sorts from the woodwork today! Yeah, I can relate to the value of the friendships made during those cult days. But - here's a strange thing - although my community felt friendly and supportive in lots of ways, none of those friendships, save one or two, were really 'close', either at the time, or in the sense they lasted beyond the Maharaji context. And even though it was Maharaji's coming to the west which allowed, indirectly, those friendships to happen, I think the nature of the message placed a sort of barrier between us all, preventing much in the way of deep and meaningful relationships. How, when things were going badly for someone, there was this 'x is in their head and pretty freaked out - better go and give some heavy satsang...' yuk! That universal panacea. I even remember when my first marriage split up being forcibly calmed and consoled by the words 'Look to Maharaji, only HE is perfect. Nothing else matters, etc.' Surrender or experience the pain of this world - it is a lesson from the Lord, all part of His lila! But in a way some of us might be grateful to the cult for the ex-premies we have got to know just recently (you especially, I guess, Joy!) And for me, there are a few exes I now feel very close to - not only in cyberspace but in real life meets and phone calls. Yet to think in terms of gratitude to either M or the cult is, I think, a bit like if I were to be grateful to Adolf Hitler for my own life (since had he not started WWII, my father and mother would never have met..!) More a case of being grateful to pure circumstance than any causal agent. (Joy: Is your email the same? - I had been meaning to drop you a line.)

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 09:06:32 (GMT) From: Joy Email: joyfenwick@onetel.net.uk To: Nigel Subject: Only for My Friends Message:

Hi Nigel, You wrote: <<...none of those friendships, save one or two, were really 'close', either at the time, or in the sense they lasted beyond the Maharaji context. . . . I think the nature of the message placed a sort of barrier between us all, preventing much in the way of deep and meaningful relationships.>> My experience was exactly the opposite! I think because of the shared spiritual experience, it allowed the friendships to be closer than ones one formed 'in the world' (pardon the horrible expression). I still write letters regularly, for more than 20 years now, with a good friend I made when in the ashram who still lives in Florida, and we're more like sisters than just buddies, she never talks about M (despite still being somewhat involved). The people I lived/worked with at SHIP in Southern California for a couple years are more like family than friends. It was such a separate, intense little nucleus, cut off from the rest of the premie community, and all living together and doing intense service 24-hours a day, that a lot of us formed very deep relationships and friendship bonds and I will always have a great love for many of those people. That was also my experience from the IHQ in Denver. So maybe my ashram experience is a little different, having been in those main organizational things in a very intensive way. Though I can't really put it down to that exclusively, since I'm also still very close (after more than 15 years) to a couple good friends I made in the San Francisco ashram when I lived there for a year and was on the way out with M and only marginally involved at that point. And Joe and I were best friends in San Francisco for almost ten years after deprogramming ourselves from the cult, and it was a very wonderful friendship. No, for me, it's the only legacy of the ten-year involvement I'm grateful for. My mom, who was unhappily married to my father for 17 years, often told me she never regretted it since she had us three wonderful kids as a result, and I guess I feel the same way, I can't really regret my time there because I wouldn't know the people I do or have had the experiences I had had I not done it. But I sure ain't gonna send Maharaji any money for my gratitude! Though who knows, had M not come to the West (or Hitler not started the war) perhaps we'd have had a whole different set of experiences equally as wonderful or even better? Or perhaps a whole lot worse? Have you seen that movie 'Run Lola Run'? That's a really great film, it's three different vignettes of the same situation, each with a slight variation at the beginning creating radically different outcomes. I often think about the circumstances of fate which led my life to turn out how it did and like to muse on whether it's by design or coincidence. But that's another thread altogether, I'm getting too philosophical! P.S. My e-mail address now is the one I put on my post. Look forward to hearing from you!

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 23:42:11 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Oh bugger it, and only a bit devils advocate! Message:

Leaving aside the parts I was not grateful for, and the downsides of all the parts that were positive as well, there were a number of areas that I suppose I would say I was grateful for through the practice of 'knowledge', although appreciation would be a better description. (1) It enabled me to access states of consciousness that I hadn't been able to reach for about four years, states I was very keen to return to, states that seemed to me to be 'truth' based in a fundamental way. (2) It taught me about the relationship between altered states, chemicals naturally in the body, and bio-feedback. (3) Having 'those' experiences took me deeply into a part of myself where I realized the importance of relaxation and chilling out. (4) Because those experiences were a daily reality for me for years, my nervousness around most people disappeared (I'd become pretty twitchy before), and an ability to create my own space and work on my boundary problems came along with. (5) Having access to legal drugs, on a daily basis, through meditation, meant I was pretty stoned for a long time, and not in that elk zombie mode, which I was well up for. (6) The quality of the experiences, for long periods, and their after effects during the day, increased my appreciation of the natural world, got me reading big-time, was a key instigator for me towards system theory and thinking. (7) Took me into healing/massage through the body/mind loop, led to some very trippy social/spiritual experiences that were very celestine prophecy in structure and type, which enabled me to see the weaknesses of new-age theorising. I could argue that my practice of k exposed gm to me and enabled me to walk even if he was god. (8) Confirmed that all the profound realisations I'd had on acid were grounded in 'reality', and would be accessible to me while I remained conscious. Those were the main positive themes for me, oh and increasing my appreciation of the message of the zen mavericks, and linking it to that grateful dead other reality 'knowing'.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 20:18:59 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Nigel Subject: So where are the 'grateful' exes? Message:

Yeah, I have a lot of gratitude. Not particularly for Maharaji, but for the context. While a premie I met a lot of wonderful, caring, intelligent people. Maybe you were one of them. Back in September of 1971 I was in some respects in a really difficult place. I couldn't relate to much of the world at all. I couldn't handle it. I had spent 6 months in the back wards of a mental hospital in the throes of what I consider to be authentic visionary experience. I was diagnosed as psychotic. So the Maharaji context gave me context for my life. I learned a meditation practice. I was able to ground enough to function. I was by and large amongst folks who were caring and intelligent enough for me gain at least some stability. Want to know something? I'm even more grateful for the context of cancer. A truly terrible gift, terrible in the sense of awesome and powerful. A gift that demands respect. Amazing things have come out of the journey. I wouldn't recommend my path to anyone, but I try to help others, especially those coming through similar ordeals. I feel very grateful to be alive. My body is precious. And impermanent. For much of my life I've felt very uncomfortable being alive. Funny that it took cancer to learn these things.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 09:11:12 (GMT) From: Katie Email: None To: Bobby Subject: Me too, Bobby Message:

I think you could call me a grateful ex for many of the reasons you described. I was definitely headed down the path to complete self-destruction when I became a premie, and I am grateful for the premie community which provided support and structure at a time when I really needed it. (I do not give M credit for this, by the way - these were good people.). However, I'm also grateful that I was able to leave when I did - I think this is another similarity between you and me, Bobby. However, one of the reasons I began participating in this forum and in ex-premie.org was that people who I had really cared about had been very hurt by becoming involved with Maharaji - more than I ever imagined. I was lucky to have gotten out unscathed, and I know this. BTW, great to see you here! I'm also grateful that I've met so many wonderful ex-premies through this forum (another bonus of having been a premie.) Love, Katie

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 16:42:10 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Katie Subject: Me too, Bobby Message:

Great to hear from you Katie. >>>>>However, one of the reasons I began participating in this forum and in ex-premie.org was that people who I had really cared about had been very hurt by becoming involved with Maharaji - more than I ever imagined. I was lucky to have gotten out unscathed, and I know this. I believe you and others, probably many others who say they have been really hurt with Maharaji involvement. I do not dismiss this at all. I've not seen the depths of that, perhaps I've been insensitive to a degree, but it's been taking me a long time to sort it all out. I'm still in process. My answer involves many worlds so to speak. Maharaji represents a lot to me, a whole aspect of my life, in which a lot was going on. Recovery from journeys through way out worlds, the promise and development of spirituality, personal emotional development, coping with life and the world, alliances with many beautiful human beings and much more. I've been through a lot in my life, many worlds. They all have valid teachings in their multifarious dimensions, some unseemly, but all worth looking at, worth meditating on. I have a lot of friends who are premies and a lot of friends who are ex-premies. I have two close friends who are premies and at least a few that are ex-premies. My close premie friends live at a distance and I don't see them often. I regard the continued involvement with Maharaji of my premie friends as part of the baggage of their lives. I don't share much of the dimensions of that, and the Maharaji part doesn't affect much of our relationship. These friends are rich and deep human beings, genuinely intelligent and good people. Sure, like all of us, they have work to do in their lives. Regarding the suffering and damage factors of Maharaji involvement. As near as I can tell, some suffering has gone on in people's lives because of Maharaji. However, I think that there are also a goodly number of people that have benefitted in whatever way they have. Most of them don't post here. Why should they? Many are ex-premies where Maharaji has played a more or less significant role, then they have moved on. Not so many regrets. To me Maharaji is just a token. I don't think he really is very much in touch with true spirituality. True spirituality I think is very rare and hard to come by. At the same time, there are simple qualities and true spiritual qualities that exist in us all, every one of us. This may seem an out there thing to say (I believe it though and have my reasons) but I think that Maharaji was something like psychedelics. I think doors were opened for a time and then closed. I'm grateful for the acid trips I took in the sixties. They altered me permanently, sometimes in very difficult ways. Yes they are dangerous, but dangerous doesn't make them bad. I don't think that Maharaji 'owns' his spirituality, but I think the doors were open for a time around him for many people. They opened for me in important ways. Many perhaps wish certain doors in their lives they never opened, but many are happy they did. There's a lot to say, and I think I've touched on a few points, points that I'm interested in and that can be elaborated upon. These are the points I care about. I'd like to discuss further, but I don't feel at all comfortable arguing and I won't. Much love, Bobby

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 15:49:36 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Bobby Subject: So where are the 'grateful' exes? Message:

Hi Bobby! and great to see you posting. (Was it just coincidence you looked in, or were your ears burning? :)) I can relate to what you said about the 'context' of the Maharaji experience - and how a particular context at certain times can bring a sense of stability following troubled times. That was also the case for me - though I don't suppose I had been through anything quite as traumatic as you had. (Though for me that stability came at a pretty high price in terms of how far detached it made me from people and things that should have mattered far more to me - I wish I'd joined nothing more innocuous than a drama group or cricket club, now!) I don't actually find it surprising what you have written in your last two paragraphs about cancer providing its own context, with a value of sorts. Only because I have known other cancer patients saying the same. (But I can't pretend for a minute to really understand what that means - and I don't suppose anyone else does unless they find themselves in that situation.) But the impression I get is of a profound sense of what really matters in life, the value of people around you and living wholly in the present - which is what think everybody ultimately needs to learn to do, and for those same reasons that life is precious and our time here is temporary. But anyway, good to see you again, Bobby, and hope you can manage to drop by more often.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:46:30 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Nigel Subject: So where are the 'grateful' exes? Message:

Nice post Nige, thank you for that. Though I've not always agreed with your conclusions, I've felt a lot of honesty come through from you and I admire that. And basic human respect. Actually, I just happened to see my name mentioned. I do read here a bit from time to time. I don't post so much cause I feel I have a good and healthy perspective and don't like arguing or feeling like I have to defend myself all the time. At risk of sounding new age (which I sure ain't), I think it is important to look at the gifts that various difficult situations bring. I've been through some doozies that I wouldn't wish on anyone but I've learned a hell of a lot through the process. For me, the both emotional and spiritual processing were key. I'd be dead or permanently insane without these contexts, I know it.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 20:44:19 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Bobby Subject: grateful to be older and wiser Message:

Hi Bobby! I zipped over here to read a few posts and there you were! I was just saying today that I am oddly grateful for my own physical challenges as crazy as that sounds. I never would have started exercising if it weren't a necessity and I probably would have self-destructed if I hadn't started taking care of myself (because I, like you, sought those EXTREME experiences). We went to the beach this past weekend and it was beautiful. I lay on the beach all day yesterday and didn't move, just let the sun like liquid gold heal me (I have my daughter's cold). God it was gorgeous. Glad to see you here. Hope all is well.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 21:17:52 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Helen Subject: grateful to be older and wiser Message:

Yes Helen, wild and crazy at heart we are... and that's a good thing! 'The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom' - William Blake. Think I read that in association with the book Demian by Herman Hesse as an adolescent back in the sixties. Should I say Wm. Blake fucked up my life? Hesse? No, I'm grateful in my way for these paths. I only regret where I have hurt others. I'm grateful too to be older and wiser. Never could quite relate to being young. You are one of the very special people I have met through this board. I think of you on the beach laying in the sun. Wonderful! Profound beauty exists in sky, sea and thee! Best to you and your family. Love from Bobby

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:18:22 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I'm grateful....grateful that is Message:

to be an ex-premie.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 01:43:14 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Nigel Subject: Since you asked.... Message:

Now there's a tease! You read my mind, Nigel! Can I send you a few thousand pounds??? When I first found this website in 1999 -- my brother who got me into K also found this site and sent me to it -- I wrote a Journey. I wrote that Journey long before I read and got involved in all the discussions here about what had happened with this cult, which I left in 1976. And in that Journey, I said that I was 'grateful' for the 'gifts' I had gotten from GMJ while I was in the cult. In the last week, I had that sentence deleted from my Journey. I had been meaning to do it ever since I began to read the Forum and participate in it. My views when I wrote my Journey were totally uninformed. What I learned from the Forum made me realize that whatever I got from the cult came from me, and the friends I made, not from the goo roo. Since travelling around the world to meet exes this year, that understanding has been confirmed over and over. Part of the chimera of the cult is crediting M with our own hard, internal work. That was a mistake. So here's someone who thought she was a grateful ex, but is really grateful to this website. Marianne

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 03:03:09 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Marianne Subject: FA: What happened to my journey? Message:

It has been a while since I e-mailed it.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 12:28:39 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Salam Subject: Email the main site, Salam Message:

The admins only look after the forum and have nothing to do with the journeys section. FA

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 11:54:48 (GMT) From: sam Email: - To: Salam Subject: looking foreward to reading it (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 16:35:32 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What is The D. Lane url? Message:

Could someone please put the link to Dr D. Lane's website I have used this link but it does not seem to work http://www.mtsac.edu/~dlane/

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 20:46:42 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: Salam Subject: What is The D. Lane url? Message:

hi salam type this in the address bar. www.members.tripod.com/~dlane5/ have you tried blue green algae powder,it naturally stimulates the neuropeptides in the brain giving a very natural mild high and very good for the body? love buzz

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 02:56:13 (GMT) From: Salm Email: None To: buzz Subject: Thanks for the link. Message:

What is with the algea? You want to kill me or something? ME NO TAKE DRUGS TO MAKE ME HIGH, good.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:26:30 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: Salm Subject: Thanks for the link. Message:

hi salam, no,its not a drug just a natural food supplement that has this natural mild effect on the body/mind,a positive effect,my partner is usually quite skeptical about trying things i ask her to try eg.ginseng and she notices no differance but with the algae she came home from work and said she felt quite energised,she was surprised. love buzz

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 01:47:12 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: If I were a premie, why would I care about all the Message:

EV sites that keep going up? I mean, one after another, EV puts up sites supposedly focused on the cult in various countries. For example, New Zealand just went on-line, the Happy Clappers joyously announce over on ELK. But even premies must be thinking 'Who the fuck cares?' Every EV site is exactly the same. They all just explain where to buy stuff and that's about it. So why do they need more than one (beside clogging up search engines, of course) and why do they all get so excited about this?

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 07:52:12 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey Jim, you don't read the news! Message:

Each and every country wanting to be blessed by Rawat's holy presence HAS TO HAVE A WEBSITE UP in the country before he would even consider coming to that country. That's HIS agya, and it's been conveyed to all organizers a few month ago. That's why!

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:12:24 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Well, I have to admit, it's VERY impressive Message:

What's so funny is the fact that no one gives a shit about any of these sites. Even the most devout premie nationalist, if such an animal exists, has no more reason to go to his own country's site than any other. I mean, can you imagine the excitement in Auckland these days as the word circulates? 'Hey, fellow People with Knowledge, Enjoyers of Life, Students of the Heart and Non-Member Volunteers! Guess what? We did it! We've got our own EV mirror site now! Remember how Maharaji told us to ignore the internet a couple of years ago? That's good, because neither do I.'

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 08:00:44 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: What is the benefit to him in doing that?..nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 13:12:47 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Salam Subject: Like cats or dogs' peeing wherever they go! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:11:05 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Did you read that EV? I did not say that..nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:01:42 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Jim Subject: If I were a premie, why would I care about all the Message:

Why because it is absolutely blissful that The Lord and Master can utilize the virtual shopping mall of the cyber plantation to sell all the absolutely manditory tools and products to be used to go to THAT place and REALIZE THAT THING, of course! This is a Master Of Perfection for the high-tec world. And if anyone cannot afford these wonderful tools of inspiration, well then they are not trying and they can rot like vegetables! It is SO blissful!

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 01:41:20 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Retard! Message:

From ELK: Peace my head is full of nonsense but my heart is full of peace Ray Laurence Swansea, Wales, UK

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 18:48:08 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jim and all Subject: the marvel of Maha ... Message:

'Head full of nonsense?' He MUST have been overdosing on the videos of Mr Rawat, don't you think? . . . PS Strange that Ray sounds quite content to have his head full of nonsense. Ah, well, that's the marvel of Maha for you ...

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 01:59:19 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: Retard! Message:

Jim you beat me to it by minutes!! I was just going to post that one too. Actually, if Mike hadn't outed himself on that other ELK quote, I would have sworn this would have been straight from the Shroom's mouth!!

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 01:42:41 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Numbskull! Message:

From ELK: Aroma of heaven my heart smells the aroma of heaven. my head tries to comprehend. 'doesn't matter,' my heart says. 'come with me,' I enter: 'ahh, sweet, fragrant, delight I have always carried you within, but I needed the know-how of how to find and feel you. thank you, for this most precious gift of knowing, experiencing, feeling, being. sweet, sweet it is Janice Wilson Baldwinsville, NY, USA

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:09:44 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: I got another one for you Message:

Also from the ELK brain farm: Knowledge I realised, the less I have of this world, the more dependent I become on Knowledge. So that's why the Master empties your wallet first? The more dependent I become on Knowledge, the stronger I get within me. The stronger I get within me, the more I enjoy this world. I used to think that I have to protect myself from this world by closing up, but I discovered that I couldn't close all the openings I had, and anyway, if I did I ended up suffocating. Maybe that's why Krishna had six hands and turned blue? Knowledge freed me from such limiting concepts. Practising Knowledge made me feel so strong, so clear, that I can meet the world wide open now and laugh... and enjoy! . And we're laughing too, honey:) Eleni Kyriakopoulou Athens, Greece Oh boy. Any anonymous premies want to claim ownership of these gems?

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 13:14:23 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Rob Subject: OMG!!! LMAO Message:

I think I might have a hernia! That's too funny.

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:04:18 (GMT) From: Snap Head Email: None To: Rob Subject: Jim and Rob - What do you think of Eminem? Message:

The new Eminem CD!!!! What do you think? No expressions of love or light, just egotistical arrogance, hate, anger, and violence, directed toward women and gays and anyone who is different. Wooooooeeeeeee!!! Real criminal like feelings. You guys must just LOVE this CD!!!!

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 00:52:15 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: Snap Head, you are such a Sweet Heart Message:

for worrying about Jim and Rob's musical appreciation. I gather from previous posts, however, that they have a thriving love of and interest in music. Seriously though, the topic of this forum is VERY emotive. I can imagine that if Janice Wilson, for instance, read this thread, it would be very distressing to her. And in the same way, some of the posts that premies make here on the forum are distressing to read for those people who are in the process of examining their cult involvement, what their beliefs truly are, and what they truly do KNOW, and how well their 'Master' and 'Knowledge' has served their needs. It is a vulnerable time in a person's life. Cherished beliefs are being questioned and you are more in need of a hand to hold than satsang. I think premies and ex-premies alike would agree these days that 'Knowledge' is not for everybody as we thought in the seventies, in fact there is an appreciable slice of the population that can develop psychological problems which can be seriously exacerbated by the practise of the techniques and the process of being a devotee. So, when these people start complaining: hey my stomach aches, and the best wisdom that Maharaji and Elan Vital can come up with is: if you like it great, if not walk; with the best will in the world, THAT PERSON CANNOT COMPLY with the request. They have a problem, they have to empty their stomach of what is making them sick before they can go anywhere! Say you go to the movies, and you are sitting there enjoying the film, it is exciting, beautiful, fun filled and you feel a part of the story, well time goes on and helplessly still feeling a part of it, you watch as it slowly transforms into a horror movie, now you are frightened and deeply troubled, and at that point the usher comes up and sits next to you. Hey, the usher says, it's okay, really, it's just a movie, look see the strings being pulled, and the hero who morphed into a villain, really look, it's just a hamster in shiny clothes. The chin wobbles, a tear rolls down, and for the first time in a while, you laugh. So, Elan Vital, in my opinion, should quietly say thank you to the people on the ex-premie forum and seek to form a cooperative relationship rather than a combative one. I understand that it's no fun to have the mess in your world pointed out, but that mess does'nt just vanish with wishful thinking, and in my opinion, in acknowledging the full premie picture, personal growth is the reward. Love, Lesley

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:03:57 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: Lesley, you are such a Sweet Heart Message:

Lesley, let me tackle this one point at a time. You say . . . . . .some of the posts that premies make here on the forum are distressing to read for those people who are in the process of examining their cult involvement, what their beliefs truly are, and what they truly do KNOW, and how well their 'Master' and 'Knowledge' has served their needs. Lesley, IMO this forum has a right to be here. It is a vulnerable time in a person's life. Cherished beliefs are being questioned and you are more in need of a hand to hold than satsang. When I'm into K, truly into K, I have no beliefs, just space and energy. I think premies and ex-premies alike would agree these days that 'Knowledge' is not for everybody as we thought in the seventies, in fact there is an appreciable slice of the population that can develop psychological problems which can be seriously exacerbated by the practise of the techniques and the process of being a devotee. You may be right. Some people can't handle the process of spiritual re-birth, the letting go of the ego, that whole 'dark night of the soul' thing. Spiritual growth can be painful. So, when these people start complaining: hey my stomach aches, and the best wisdom that Maharaji and Elan Vital can come up with is: if you like it great, if not walk; with the best will in the world, THAT PERSON CANNOT COMPLY with the request. They have a problem, they have to empty their stomach of what is making them sick before they can go anywhere! I use Knowledge to empty myself out. Say you go to the movies, and you are sitting there enjoying the film, it is exciting, beautiful, fun filled and you feel a part of the story, well time goes on and helplessly still feeling a part of it, you watch as it slowly transforms into a horror movie, now you are frightened and deeply troubled, and at that point the usher comes up and sits next to you. Hey, the usher says, it's okay, really, it's just a movie, look see the strings being pulled, and the hero who morphed into a villain, really look, it's just a hamster in shiny clothes. The chin wobbles, a tear rolls down, and for the first time in a while, you laugh. They talk about demons in the Tibetan Book of the Dead. Jean Michel posted a excellent article of vipassana which I downloaded. We've got to confront our fears and upsets, our demons. No one else can do it for us. That'll be the day! I understand that it's no fun to have the mess in your world pointed out, but that mess doesn't just vanish with wishful thinking, and in my opinion, in acknowledging the full premie picture, personal growth is the reward. Love, Lesley The mess ain't going away until we own it. Wishful thinking has its place but I prefer no thinking, at least sometimes. We need our minds but not all the time. You are right, personal growth is the reward, and for me personal growth includes Knowledge. Thanks Lesley. There you have it Nige?

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 20:40:16 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Sorry doggie, I thought you were a real person Message:

You know, flesh and blood, feeling and thinking, capable of responding to another person. Never mind, go get a petting from your Master...... Lotus Eater PS, you have made me regret putting my own name to my post, so please, if all you want to do is play silly buggers don't use my name, it was disconcerting.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 21:18:08 (GMT) From: Lotus Eater Email: None To: Lotus Eater Subject: Apologies, doggie, for being such a snaphead nt Message:

nt

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:13:45 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: DD!!!!!!! You bad dog, you Message:

Now I know why you wouldn't say much in your Snap Head posts.....only you Dog, can manage to come across like Ross Perot on acid. Gotta love ya, man.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:00:46 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Lotus Eater Subject: * Great post * Lesley! ..Any thoughts, Snap Head? Message:

Didn't LE's post strike a few chords and touch a few buttons?

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 16:05:45 (GMT) From: AlphaMale Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: Eminem = M+M = Maharaji+Marolyn Message:

May not be gansta rap, but it's a rap nonetheless. Crap rap?

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:19:08 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: Who is Eminem? NT Message:

NT

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:28:55 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Rob Subject: Who is Eminem? NT Message:

A corporate manufactured and promoted 'rebellious bad boy' POP STAR! Just mindless corporate PRODUCT! For real rap of worth check out Public Enemy's new indie release.

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:11:06 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: Yes, those are definitely the options Message:

It's either Happy Clapper Cult syndrome or juvenile gangsta' rap. No other options, it's got to be one of these two. Is there a single premie who can think straight?

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:19:23 (GMT) From: Snap Head Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim are you not an extremist? Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 19:52:48 (GMT) From: Forum Administrator Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: Question for Snap Head.. Message:

Do you intend to be 'Snap head' from now on?

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 20:07:00 (GMT) From: jim Email: None To: Forum Administrator Subject: Question for Snap Head.. Message:

but who was he before?

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:06:45 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: jim Subject: Answer for Jim Message:

Hi Jim, I think Snap Head has been here before, under the aliases Agent Canine and Deputy Dog, to name but a couple. I believe you've met him in the flesh. Anth the Grass

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:19:14 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: AJW Subject: Can you confirm that Snap Head is Deputy Dog? Message:

If that's the case I have something to say. Thanks

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 23:40:23 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: OK, Snap Head is Deputy Dog? Message:

Jim, I can't stand the idea of you agonizing over this any longer. I'm Snap Head! What's the big deal? It was a harmless post. And Agent Canine, that was a pretty lame thesaurus version of Deputy Dog wasn't it? Anth saw right through it. The FA is on my case anyway.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:23:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: OK, tell me again why I shouldn't out him? Message:

This game is ridiculous. Fuckface, here, violates one of the two house rules by changing his name in order to mislead. All along I know who he is and I'm supposed to shut up about it? Like it's some big principle to allow cult members to abuse their anonymity like crazy? Boy, I guess I need to go back to Sunday School because I just don't see it.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 09:33:34 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Jim Subject: In which case Jim Message:

why not just tell him you've changed your mind and go for it. He needs a short sharp kick, metaphorically speaking. If he then comes back ......... Christ you're allowed to change your mind!

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 15:35:15 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: ham Subject: Here's the problem -- FA? Message:

I'd love to out Dog, now. Like I say, he emailed me, I called him and it didn't take but a moment for me to guess that he was, in fact, posting as Deputy Dog. The only problem is that, as I coaxed that admission out of him, I lubricated my pitch by promising, in a moment of gnerosity and goodwill, to keept it a secret. Yes, I did, as my damned girlfriend keeps reminding me. However, since then, Dog has continued to insult me, insult my job, my character (well, I'bve insulted his character too but he's a premie, for god's sake!) and has, more importantly, violated clubhouse rules -- which he knows as well as anyone -- by posting under changing names. I really feel like a fool, in some ways, protecting his anonymity so that he can abuse the forum like this. FA, anyone else, I'm asking for some guidance on this. What do you think? Should I? Or should I just forget it all until next time -- and then the time after that. See, the way I look at it, Dog's anonymity is part of the problem. He's abusing the privilege. Anyone?

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 23:00:19 (GMT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Hey Jim, mellow out man! Message:

However, since then, Dog has continued to insult me, insult my job, my character . . . What? Have I ever called you Fuckface like you just called me the previous post? No! And I have NEVER insulted your job. I may have done some verbal sparring with you but none of it viciously. I'm just playing. I guess tone doesn't come through well in this medium. IMO, posting as Snap Head was a harmless bit of Saturday night fun. Your reaction here is a bit frightening and over the top don't you think? Sheeeeeesh!!!! Premies are basically a harmless bunch. Your attacks on them and me in the above posts are totally inappropriate. Do you think you could be overreacting a little to the Snap Head posts? Christ, no wonder premies aren't posting here any more. I choose to keep practising Knowledge and you treat it like the 'crime of the century.' Where is your sense of humour for fuck sakes? I can remember when you had one!

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 17:00:47 (GMT) From: ham Email: None To: Jim Subject: I don't get it Jim Message:

The guy's been acting in bad faith for ages, if you tell him you've changed your mind and that you'll only out him the next time he's out of order, surely that covers it? So what's with this saintliness urge now? The guy's just taking the piss out of you & this site, he deserves nuthin.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 02:37:43 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Jim Subject: You could always apply the Shroom manouvre! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 03:01:25 (GMT) From: Each time shroom gets Email: None To: jim Subject: kicked out a snap head shows up, Message:

What is the relation? Salam

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:41:34 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: Are you just a man of few words Message:

or are you afraid if you write too much we'll figure out your other pseudonyms? Do you have anything substantial to say? Are you a friend of Mike Fronke? Or Bjorn?

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:46:36 (GMT) From: Snap Head Email: None To: Rob Subject: A man of few words? Message:

Yes!

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:29:01 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: Great...someone named 'Snap Head' is asking me Message:

if I'm an extremist. Too fucking funny!

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 13:17:32 (GMT) From: Tonette Email: None To: Jim Subject: Still LMAO!! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:43:29 (GMT) From: Snap Head Email: None To: Jim Subject: You hate all other extemists? Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message:

That makes you a real extremist then. Much more extreme than me.

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 21:16:42 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Snap Head Subject: Disbelief in Santa = 'extremist position'?! (nt) Message:

sddvsdv

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:47:51 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: An impressive leap of logic, Snappy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Message:

How on earth do you conclude that Jim is an extremist OR hates anybody from that post of his? Do tell, I'm absolutely dumbfounded!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:06:20 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: You and he are RAVING DORKS! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:10:09 (GMT) From: Snap Head Email: None To: ExTex Subject: Who? Rob and Jim? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:18:01 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: Who? Rob and Jim? (nt) Message:

NO!Whoever wrote: No expressions of love or light, just egotistical arrogance, hate, anger, and violence, directed toward women and gays and anyone who is different. Wooooooeeeeeee!!! Real criminal like feelings. DORK and M&M (peanut or plain?)

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:51:42 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Rob Subject: NEW AGYA? Message:

Never put off making wretchedly bad poetry for tomorrow. Never delay in attending a poetry slam. Never let thinking enter your mind. Always remember your credit card number and the EV address.

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:22:20 (GMT) From: Snap Head Email: None To: ExTex Subject: ExTex, your NEW AGYA post is pure drivel (nt) Message:

extensive coverage

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 23:20:05 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: Rings true to me. D'you ENJOY M's 'poetry' Dog? Message:

Your problem, not mine, I guess...

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:31:44 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Snap Head Subject: ExTex, your NEW AGYA post is pure drivel (nt) Message:

Sorry but I must have missed something there. Your post made no sense at all to me. But at least it was consistant with your other posts!

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:44:53 (GMT) From: Michael Email: None To: ExTex Subject: ExTex, your NEW AGYA post is pure drivel (nt) Message:

My head is full of nonsense My heart is full of peace My wallet now is empty Because I just visited the Visions International website Where I enjoy buying aids which help me enjoy listening to M.

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 18:20:17 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Michael Subject: ExTex, your NEW AGYA post is pure drivel (nt) Message:

A truly blissful poem, my blissful brother. It expresses the wisdom of a true devotee of the true Teacher. The Teacher of perfection wisely advises his pupils to garner all the blissful lifestyle accessories from his organization so that they may stay synchronized with Him. And the amount of money spent and the amount of critical thinking that is disregarded is of no importance. We are on the inside ultra elite track to THAT place! And He is taking us THERE. And as for the other people in the world; the starving, the sick, the tortured, the lonely, the ones living in abject misery...well, FUCK 'EM!!! THEY SHOULD GET KNOWLEDGE AND BUY SOME INSPIRING VIDEOS! WE CAN'T BE CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR STUPID TRIP! FUCK 'EM ALL! It's just so blissful, so perfect. zzzzzz zzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zz

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 18:36:17 (GMT) From: hey extex Email: None To: ExTex Subject: when you gonna change your journal? Message:

ffff

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 19:14:42 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: hey extex Subject: No Comprenda Senor (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 13:29:32 (GMT) From: TeyydaTheTurtle Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Randy avatars Message:

It seems most so called 'avatars' are having it off with their devotees...bloody indians ...they are so Randy.. see the link on Muhktanand posted below by someone here.... http://www.cyberpass.net/truth/o_guru_English.htm This guy was telling his devotees by having it off with him...he can raise their Kundlini....yah sure...and I can do that too...

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:39:18 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: TeyydaTheTurtle Subject: Randy avatars Message:

not only indians, what about da free john aka loveananda aka a thousand names from long island.he takes videos of his devotees having it off, so the story goes.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 17:58:18 (GMT) From: TeddyTheTurtle Email: None To: buzz Subject: Randy avatars Message:

never heard of the guy....I think its really bad and humiliating to treet your diciples that way...to make them trust you and believe in you...and then to ask sexual favours from them...Its like they let their defences down...and you take advantage of their trust...

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 19:52:15 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: TeddyTheTurtle Subject: Randy avatars Message:

Well now that I think about this angle of the Guru/Diciple relationship.... I would like to announce that This Most Blissful ExTex will now be known as SHAFTANANDA! And The Turgid One Himself will be cumming to a location near you dear sisters and He will blissfully be dispensing The Mystical Seed Of Life to all lovely sisters who qualify and please HIS RIGID standards of selection! Shaftananda will be bestowing this divine intimate experience by giving you THAT experience INSIDE OF YOU and you will indeed be OPENED UP to the STAFF OF LIFE. There will be NO CHARGE for this intimate and personal experience (but Shaftananda is a bit kinky for devotees in seamed stockings while they are pranaming!) Why I can feel my old 'consciousness' raising just telling you about it! (smirk)

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 05:09:00 (GMT) From: Yuck! Email: None To: ExTex Subject: Clean your sticky keyboard(nt) Message:

fffffff

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 00:46:01 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: ExTex Subject: Randy Spears Message:

Before you get carried away, I want full film, video and DVD rights on the porn movie, 'Shaftananda does Sheffield'. I can provide the girls. Have you got the wood? If you go limp, we'll have Anne Johnson on hand as the fluffer.

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 02:42:36 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Sir D MyHOTma #1 Message:

It sounds like you might be MyHOTma material. You could spread the Shaftananda Seed Of Wisdom throughout England, Scotland,Wales and the Falkan Islands (ouch) but remember that all profits from the videos, films, CD's, DVD's,etc will be Shaft-ji's! Of course we will have them actually put in the name of some dull witted devotee's name for tax reasons. Someone suitabley stupid...oops, devoted ...so that they do not realise that they are the owner and executor of a fortune....but rather someone willing to take the shaft, if needed. Now start lining up those blissful sisters, I feel inspired. And just think of the perks...oops, grace...that will come with to a slavishly devoted PAS (person around Shaftananda)....but as for all PAS's...don't drop the soap in the shower while The Turgid One is in an inspirational mood!

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:06:22 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The bottom line Message:

This is my 2'nd attempt at posting here.The 1'st didn't take, probably due to my inexperience with this new toy. I've been a premie since '72(London),to a greater or lesser degree of involvement.I got connectedto the internet last month & found this site.The information here is something I can't ignore,has destroyed my complacent faith that GMJ is the Perfect Master, & has left me feeling very strange. I meditate & it works for me so I will continue. I was going to see m in Harrogate soon, but not now.I'd rather spend the money buying my dear wife a bottle of good champagne. If I post here in the future it will be when I've taught myself to type faster & have come to terms with being an ex. I've noticed conversations here about anomynity .I want to remain anomynous & here's why. 2 or 3 years ago a friend of mine approached a well known English premie & long time Dlm/Ev stalwart for advice about what to do about a prmie (now ex) who was disrupting the local video events. The stalwart said more or less that the occasional freakout was nothing to get bothered about. When it got to someone who was consciously obstructing m's work however, & they would'nt stop then in the end the only thing you could do was kill them. I was very taken aback when I heard this but then I remembered that the stalwart had; often been the guy at the wheel of m's 20foot juggermerc when it did a racing exit through a crowd of darhan hungry premies;would have got a gold medal if the diving pranam was an Olympic event, & was a high octane hellfire satsang giver. I decided that what he'd said was overblown rhetoric brought on by an excess of zeal & forgot about it. He wasn't being serious........was he?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:14:13 (GMT) From: Bin Bhag Ji Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: The bottom line Message:

I am the lost and silenced 5th brother - even Bholay Ji disowned me. I reckon it was dear old Peter Lee who would have said such a feeble and hot-headed thing - both qualities which to him pass for respectively bliss and commitment. Be under no illusions that the holy family (ALL of Em) do not look down on the efforts of the PAMs to ingratiate themselves upon M with complete distain.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 22:29:26 (GMT) From: Bin Liner Email: None To: Bin Bhag Ji Subject: The bottom line Message:

Congrats.Bin Bagh,you've pulled the right name out of the hat. Thanks to all who replied to my post,esp.Marianne for those kind words. BUT DANNY: Your response of veiled contempt for me having left the cult(writing that word is so hard)I can understand. What I don't get though,is why you didn't get worked up about my allegation that a prominent figure in the EV organisation might consider murder to be a legitimate tool in the advancement of that organisations aims. I haven't had a particulary good weekend,thanks all the same & F U 2 P.S Sorry Bin Bagh , I should've addressed this to danny .

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:00:09 (GMT) From: Marianne Email: MarianneDB@aol.com To: Bin Liner Subject: Hi Bin Message:

Bin: Welcome to the forum and ex-premie land! Sorting out your separation from the cult is a difficult emotional process. You will find support and understanding here. I hope that you have started reading the Journeys at this site. Those stories will give you strength and inspiration to find your own way out of the cult. Write your own Journey and post it. It will be warmly welcomed. The information you find here will help to set you free. You will also find good, compassionate friends. The only reason to go to Harrowgate (spelling?) is to carry a sign that says WWW.EX-PREMIE.ORG. And your money is well spent on your wife. Fond greetings to her. Tell us more about yourself. Marianne

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:49:41 (GMT) From: buzz Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: The bottom line Message:

hi bin i remember a friend of mine and myself waiting for m to come out of a programme in his car,we got confronted by a wpc guy and i swear to you the evil coming from that guys eyes ,he said i know what your'e trying to do.i never know to this day wether he meant just trying to get near m or wether he thought we were a threat to m, but thats unlikely as it was around the 80,s.but he would have done anything to protect his lord,this experience confirmed to me even more the doubts i had always had re. the perfect knowledge master bullshit ad in fininauseum etc keep meditating by all means but dont give him your money or your heart. regards buzz

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:23:19 (GMT) From: sam(sivan) Email: - To: buzz Subject: The bottom line Message:

when so many prems can say 'hes more important to me than my own children.. nothing would really surprise me, buzz.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:08:53 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com To: Bin Liner Subject: This is not a threat but... Message:

If he was being serious then he'd better be careful. Not all ex-premies are meek and mild. Nobody who wanted to remain in one piece would have made death threats to the Kray twins in their hey-day now would they. Some of us left the cult years ago and got to know some different people. Some of us have good friends who are definitely not angels. Some of us know the right sort of people. Listen up premies. Don't even think about threatening any ex-premies. You'll be taking on more than you bargained for. That's a promise, not a threat.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 06:56:57 (GMT) From: Peace Sister Carol Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Make love, not war! nt Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 12:39:29 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Peace Sister Carol Subject: Yay, sister! Your place or mine? ;) (nt) Message:

Yay, sister! Your place or mine? ;)

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:32:21 (GMT) From: Salam Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: A bottle? Message:

Is that all? I will take her to the Ritz and take a few boxes and spend a week there. A bottle he says. Better still, go get some new satan bed sheets, that will be something. Nice seeing you. Fear is maharaji's weapon to deter us from walking away. Sick stories like the one you mention are a reflection of you sub-conscious fear of letting go. Believe me, he is a paper guru. His bark is much bigger than his bite. Love yourself, read the journeys, go to an open field and screen as hard as you can FUCK YOU GURU MAHARAJI. Also use the secret toilet technique?? which I developed a while ago. It takes time, take it easy Salam

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:24:40 (GMT) From: Frankie Howerd Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Thrice Greetings, Bin (nt) Message:

BIRMINGHAM

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:23:15 (GMT) From: Danny Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: The bottom line Message:

Hi BL, You said, 'The information here is something I can't ignore,has destroyed my complacent faith that GMJ is the Perfect Master, & has left me feeling very strange.' Would the possibility that the 'information' you read here is largely bogus impact you in the same way? Is the repetition of hearsay from people you don't know worth more than whatever you've personally intuited, felt and known? Put it this way: if someone you didn't know told you your wife had an entire bizarre, secret life you weren't aware of, would you just blindly believe them or would you at least check in with your wife? It's a question worth asking. Have a lovely weekend. Danny

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 14:58:36 (GMT) From: AJW Email: anthginn@yahoo.com To: Danny Subject: The bottom line Message:

Hi Danny, I wouldn't worry about getting bumped off by a premie. Most of them couldn't knock the skin off a rice pudding. I've been posting here for a couple of years, using my own name, and I've never even had a nasty email. I still have several premie friends (and a premie wife) and the worst thing that has happened is some people who I thought were friends dumped me. The premies are much more scared of us. Most of them are even scared to read the forum or Ex-Premie.org (wonder why?). Like you,it was getting access to all this information that finally let me figure out what the score was. What a relief to remove the misty goggles and see things clearly again. I've never, for a single second, regretted getting out. If you've been around in London for a few years maybe I know you. Drop me an email if you feel like it. And welcome to freedom. Anth (to the tune of the Great Escape) Der da dad der der da der, etc)

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 23:30:45 (GMT) From: TD Email: None To: Danny Subject: The bottom line Message:

Would the possibility that the 'information' you read here is largely bogus impact you in the same way? Is the repetition of hearsay from people you don't know worth more than whatever you've personally intuited, felt and known? Danny, when I was a premie, the premies I had contact with PERSONALLY and on a day-to-day basis who I trusted implicitly, including my premie partner at the time, all either blatantly lied to me or avoided answering me directly about things like Arti, M being called Lord of the Universe or pranaming. I only found out those things occurred from this website and the fact that premies on this forum, cannot deny that they participated in these activities. Can you?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:34:15 (GMT) From: Rob Email: None To: Danny Subject: Could you be a little more specific? Message:

Exactly what information do you consider bogus, and why? Is it bogus that maharaji was, and still is by the majority, considered to be either God Himself or a very close relative? Is it bogus that Elan Vital is now denying it on his behalf, despite a veritable mountain of published material, regularly quoted here, in which we hear it straight from the horses mouth? Is it bogus that Elan Vital Inc filed its tax status with the IRS as being that of a Church in order to avoid publishing its financial wheeling and dealing, regardless of the fact that by every definition of Church the IRS has within its guidelines, Elan Vital is NOT a Church? Is it bogus that maharaji's subordinate, mahatama jagdeo, sexually molested Susan and other children? Is it bogus that, despite the knowledge being touted as a freebie dished out by a philanthropist, EV in the USA receives around 70% of its $17 million annual budget from donations, and that a healthy chunk of this goes to pay shill companies for his exclusive use of executive aircraft, helicopter, 110 ft yachts, expensive motor vehicles, luxury residential homes worldwide and just about the best of everything money can buy? Is it bogus that all of these luxurious excesses are written off as allowable charitable expenses, by an organization which is actualy not required to open up its books (because its a *church*, remember)? I could go on, but since I'm fairly confident you will duck and dive past all the above, I see no point wasting everybody's time completing the list. PS You're not a friend of Mike Fronke's are you? I'm curious to know what reaction there has been locally to his outlandish and disastrous PR hatchet job here?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:32:19 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Danny Subject: Great question, Danny! Message:

You're oh so right, Danny. Why believe accusations against anyone without proof? That's a damned good question! You're one of the smart ones, aren't you? You're not a premie, by chance, are you? I've heard about you guys. Sharp as tacks. So, Dan, let's talk about this. If someone told you your wife had a secret life, you're right on the money saying that you'd check with her. That's a very good point you're making. Indeed, I'm going to write it down in case I ever need to think of what to do in such a situation. 'Check with her'... yeah, that's good. So what about here. For example, a lot of us accuse Maharaji of all sorts of things. Let's call him the 'wife', 'kay? But everytime we go to ask him about some of these 'stories' we find that he's completely unavailable! Wifey-pie's not taking any calls, Danny. What next? Pray for an answer?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:43:32 (GMT) From: That is not true Email: None To: Jim Subject: You know that EV Message:

can not answer all questions. Plus there is a complaint section. Have you used it? You execs make it up because of your hatred of Maharaji and His knowledge.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 10:17:27 (GMT) From: ExTex Email: None To: That is not true Subject: HIS Knowledge?????????????? Message:

Now hold on a minute, bub. Four techniques that have been around for thousands of years (remember..they're supposed to be the very same ones taught by Jesus and a whole slew of other supposedly enlightened Masters, right?) are passed down to this guy by his dad. He has some mahatmas/initiators show them to thousands of people, including me. And the experience of using these ancient yogic tools, The Knowledge IS SUPPOSED TO BE HIS PRIVATE DOMAIN? You said HIS KNOWLEDGE! Sorry not buying that pretzel logic. My experience...in meditation (I still use 2 techniques) or anything else IS MY EXPERIENCE and M and you can bugger off if you think it is HIS KNOWLEDGE! You are giving him credit for your experience and for the techniques which have been around for ever. I suppose if he were to give you a glass of water when you were thirsty that would mean that he OWNED all the water on earth! SUCKER!

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 10:01:08 (GMT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: That is not true Subject: Just think about what you're saying Message:

Have you ever stopped to wonder why some people might hate Maharaji? Nobody hates without good reason.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 06:39:12 (GMT) From: Thomas Jefferson Email: None To: That is not true Subject: It's not true that it's m's knowledge Message:

It would be curious... if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. http://odur.let.rug.nl/~usa/P/tj3/writings/brf/jefl220.htm posted by JohnT

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:48:55 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: That is not true Subject: Sorry, Danny, that's a really bad answer (nt) Message:

jjjjj

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:27:12 (GMT) From: No-one Email: None To: Danny Subject: Your post is cult-speak. (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:26:11 (GMT) From: Nigel Email: None To: Bin Liner Subject: Welcome. Do stick around... Message:

I have to say though the implied death-threat to disruptive exes by the premie stalwart sounds like so much hot air. Too risky - too much to lose, even if they found it desirable. The Fakirandand hammer attack on the pie-thrower will haunt M forever... My guess is the car-driver was just swaggering a bit and flaunting some spurious hearsay as 'insider knowledge'. Premies accuse exes of gossip-mongering, but from what I can see, premies are the worst gossips of the lot. Premies are full of crap - it comes with the territory. Thanks for the post, Binjamin, and do stick around. (It's safe to use a real name, BTW)

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