Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 10:21:22 (GMT)
From: Sep 11, 2000 To: Sep 21, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Nigel -:- 'Amnesia' question: reply to Mike Fronke -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 00:26:09 (GMT)
__ Mark A -:- I Second That Nomination -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:52:44 (GMT)
__ Carol -:- 'Amnesia' question: reply to Mike Fronke -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:32:52 (GMT)
__ This is just wonderful!!! -:- Excellent(NT) -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 02:44:41 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- I nominate this thread for the best of the forum -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:53:27 (GMT)

suchabanana -:- tolerance, truth, and coming to peace again -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 00:10:50 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Jumping to confusions... (continued) -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 22:11:44 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- confidence. -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:31:15 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- The conditioning-the inspiration -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 09:42:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- I seem to recall.... -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:07:12 (GMT)

Nigel -:- Jumping to confusions ... 'M KNOWS something' -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 22:08:00 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- He's gotta be the One...just look at that throne! -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 23:20:27 (GMT)
__ JTF -:- Fascinating -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 19:18:10 (GMT)
__ sam -:- Jumping to confusions ... 'M KNOWS something' -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Jumping to confusions ... 'M KNOWS something' -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 20:18:42 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- Jumping to confusions ... 'M KNOWS something' -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:52:49 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- The President's Speech by Oliver Sachs -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 23:08:03 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- I stand corrected - but it's 'Sacks' not 'Sachs' -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 23:12:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Outrageous! I've been censored by the admins... -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 20:05:25 (GMT)

Salam -:- Satellite Transmission -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 19:29:32 (GMT)

Jim -:- Two very, very funny Happy Clapper posts from ELK -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:55:19 (GMT)
__ I thought I add this note -:- to Mike Shroomji -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:22:38 (GMT)
__ __ The observant -:- Why do you lie? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 18:26:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- What is true about Knowledge -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:44:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ The observant -:- What is true about Knowledge -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 23:07:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Are You Bjorn? You signed Bjorn to your post. nt -:- Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:18:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ The observant -:- What is true about Knowledge -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 13:02:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Hang on a minute -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 03:46:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ The observant -:- Hang on a minute -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 07:46:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What is true about forum rules -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 17:12:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ The observant -:- What is true about forum rules -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 20:01:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Forum Administrator -:- The guidelines will be amended soon... -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 21:42:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael -:- A couple of questions -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:16:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- 'Observant' as an adjective sounds ok to me,Miguel -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- 'Observant' as an adjective sounds ok to me,Miguel -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 23:17:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Adjectival noun, to be precise - and picky! (nt) -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 11:47:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Verbal noun surely?!! (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:29:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- That would be the ObservING (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 17:01:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Correction: it's a verbal adjectival noun...?!! -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 17:01:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Allo! you online? (OT) -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 17:04:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Allo! you online? (OT) -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 17:48:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Guess we must be (definitely NOT Off Topic) -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:07:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- This link might work properly (then again) ... -:- Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:11:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Why is it misquoted? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:50:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ The obeservant -:- Why is it misquoted? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:59:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ We know you -:- obeseservant- go forth and multiply nt -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 20:41:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Peek-a-boo! Nah, that's not you is it MF? nt -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 22:17:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Ah you are a boofhead aren't you? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 21:05:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Salam, you can't do that with them -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 21:53:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- He is, isn't he? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:05:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Anyway, coming back to the subject of -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:59:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Why do you lie? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 18:47:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Why do you lie? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 18:45:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- This is the usual type of premie coward.nt -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 18:49:39 (GMT)

Steve / Hal -:- Recovery and healing -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:26:58 (GMT)
__ Carol -:- Well said. nt -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:00:03 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Recovery and healing -- lots for lots of people -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 23:55:26 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- Recovery and healing -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:45:33 (GMT)
__ __ hAL -:- Thanks bro'- keep up the good work nt -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 22:13:38 (GMT)

Salam -:- 'Why do you volunteer to support Elan Vital? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 14:55:10 (GMT)
__ maybe if you supplied an -:- e-mai addressSalam a lot of people would answer(nt -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:00:54 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- There ye go -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 10:19:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- There ye go one more -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 11:54:41 (GMT)

Tonette -:- Me again....would like some feedback -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:44:31 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- I would imagine that takes some skill -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 22:38:12 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Participation forms -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:52:52 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- If you do -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:56:47 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Me again....would like some feedback -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 19:54:59 (GMT)
__ cq -:- If only ... -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 19:27:35 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- I'm trying to infiltrate right now -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:34:31 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Sure, have fun (nt) -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:10:17 (GMT)
__ Yang -:- Go! Go! Go! -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:05:49 (GMT)
__ Tim Matheson -:- Me again....would like some feedback -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:55:37 (GMT)
__ Slash -:- just setting up me guitar and amps now.. nt -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:51:45 (GMT)
__ __ Tonette -:- That's funny. Worth a giggle at least nt -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 14:02:01 (GMT)

Tonette -:- reflections... -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:10:51 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Can we install spell check for the forum?? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:14:02 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Good idea, but it wouldn't help in this instance -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 13:45:07 (GMT)
__ __ Doctor von Frankensteincq -:- Ah ... well I remember mine own first organism ... -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 18:52:24 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- It wouldn't have helped anyway, in this case. -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:08:42 (GMT)

Salam -:- That was the best and most... (OT) -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 12:52:41 (GMT)

AJW -:- What a year. -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 09:42:56 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- What a year. -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:27:01 (GMT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- What a year. -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 10:09:13 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Just wondering Mel..... -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 00:54:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Just wondering Mel..... -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:55:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Behind the scenes -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:49:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ An impartial observer -:- Don't forget my questions Mel -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 02:28:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Don't forget my questions Mel -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 12:45:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Don't forget my questions Mel -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 02:51:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Mel -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:11:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:48:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Mel: what decisive action..? -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 23:21:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Sorry to jump in Mel -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:04:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Sorry to jump in Mel -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:17:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Us? Abusive? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:03:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mel, are you justifying stonewalling Susan? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:21:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel, are you justifying stonewalling Susan? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:54:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, that's not fair. That's YOUR excuse -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:03:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Another critical point -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:38:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And furthermore! Is EV hiding a criminal? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:29:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Not quite true, J-M... -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 23:33:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Legal question -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:08:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, let's be reasonable about this -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:20:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Then why keep him in India? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 23:13:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Where else? Victoria? Manhattan? Malibu? (nt) -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:12:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Legal question? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:11:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Understood, thanks. nt -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:25:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- And one question further, Mel -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 02:16:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Don't forget... -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 12:53:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Don't forget... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:10:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, Mel, so now you know -- what? -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:28:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Answer to one question further, Mel -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:10:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hm, that's an interesting answer -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:21:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Here is another interesting answer -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:07:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- 'There's no need to investigate the matter myself' -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:22:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- 'There's no need to investigate the matter myself' -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:12:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mel, let's get this straight now, once and for all -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:27:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- let's get this straight now, once and for all...OK -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:34:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Mel just this one point... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel just this one point... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:00:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, no, no, Mel -- that won't do at all! -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:17:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Yes, new possiblities.... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 17:30:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- And in the meantime ... -:- Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 18:57:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- 'There's no need to investigate the matter myself' -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:25:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Sticking my beak in again -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:23:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Sticking my beak in again -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 10:43:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- How about a Used Car Salesman analogy? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 23:32:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- How about a Used Car Salesman analogy? -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:31:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- The Water Analogy -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 19:10:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Sticking my beak in again -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:26:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Mel's unquestioning devotion... -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 11:18:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Unquestioning devotion defined -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 23:51:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Mel's unquestioning devotion... -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 12:15:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Exactly my point -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:31:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mel, you're completely contradicting yourself! -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:15:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Am I contracticting myself? -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:37:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Of course you are! -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:58:27 (GMT)
__ __ An impartial observer -:- What a year. -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:54:56 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- What a year. -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 10:22:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Thanks, Anth.... -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:58:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Why wouldn't Cainer's OLD paper want the story? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:17:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Why wouldn't Cainer's OLD paper want the story? -:- Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 12:24:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- It's a conspiracy... -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:27:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's ridiculous -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:11:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- So...you wanna fight, huh? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:21:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Say it ain't so, gErRy! -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 23:01:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- No, no, no, a thousand times no! -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 18:31:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ExTex -:- No, no, no, a thousand times no! -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 19:19:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- It's a conspiracy...and did you know? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:02:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- And for the record... -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- And for the record...Bless your heart, too nt -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 06:31:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JohnT -:- Also for the record... -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:46:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- It's a conspiracy...yes gErRy -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:57:32 (GMT)

la-ex -:- latest wisdom from m on meditation... -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 02:30:06 (GMT)
__ RobertB -:- Insite from the Almighty -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:01:25 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- Insite from the Almighty -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:55:12 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Where have I seen that kind of humour before? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:48:35 (GMT)
__ Frank -:- latest wisdom from me -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 14:00:03 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- latest wisdom from m on meditation... -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 08:39:10 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- The guy doesn't have a -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 07:34:56 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Maharaji giving freely... -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 12:08:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Slightly Used Designer Dress? -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 12:46:37 (GMT)
__ King Munmut -:- 'DO' as I say. 'NOT' as I do :) -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 05:34:10 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 00:26:09 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Amnesia' question: reply to Mike Fronke
Message:
Mike, you asked:

Why would anyone believe that he is the 'Lord of the Universe' in the first place? How could you and the others here even judge that?

I replied:

OUR LORD IS THE MAKER OF ALL THINGS CREATED
HE KEEPS THEM AND BRINGS THEM BACK HOME TO HIS WORD
OUR LORD'S THE SUPERIOR POWER IN PERSON
I BOW DOWN BEFORE SUCH A WONDERFUL LORD...

Straight answers, Shroom:

Did you used to sing this song..?

If so, was it:
- several times?
- one thousand times?
- maybe every night, year in, year out for a decade or more between the end of satsang and prostrating yourself before his picture?

(1) Did you believe what you were singing?
(2) Would you feel happy singing it again if The Maharaji advised it would be good for your practice of The Knowledge?

Posing a simple question to you is a bit like trying to shovel wet spaghetti up a wild-cat's arse (not that you'd want to...)

But guess there's no harm in trying: it is the things you fail to answer which, for me, are the most instructive.
>>

You replied in a post entitled 'I never sang that song Nigel' (and to which I now reply):

>>
I received Knowledge on May 2, 1982 in a Los Angeles ashram. I did try to sing along on several occasions in Miami at a big event but I didn't know the words.

Question (1) was 'did you believe what you were singing?'

So I'll reword the question to accommodate new info:

Question (1) - reworded: 'Assuming you understood the words you were trying to sing along to. Did you believe them?

Then your reply went on:

My point is that even if I believe that Maharaji is the Lord and he showed me God within myself, does that make it a fact?

No, but it would shed light on what you DO believe, and help us have a straightforward conversation.

Can anyone know one way or the other? If God appeared to me, what would he look like? If he had a face and a voice, how would I know he was God? If he was just a big white gob of energy, how would I know?

Big questions Mike, but regardless of the 'right' answers,

(Question 1a): don't you think people claiming to be God in human form have some sort of responsibility to those they are addressing and requesting donations from? Do they know enough about white gobs of energy to instruct the rest of us?

To me, it boils down to devotion. How much do I love my creator?

(Question 1b): How can you love that which, by your own admission, you don't know?

(Question 1c): Why did Maharaji demand our devotion unless he WAS God in human form, as claimed?

Before Knowledge, I loved God but in a kind of vague way. After Knowledge, my love has increased. It is more focused. It is more grateful. It is more peaceful. Do I know God? No.

(Question 1d) So what do you love?

But I do feel much love for Him. I attribute that to Knowledge and to Maharaji. He awakened my thirst. And helped me to quench it. And continues to do so.

A quenched thirst should need no further quenching from the man who awakened it. You make him sound like a pusher at the playground gates.

But like I said to start with - it's like shovelling wet spaghetti up a wildcat's arse, as evinced by the fact you only evasively answered Q1 and ignored Q2 completely.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 15:52:44 (GMT)
From: Mark A
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I Second That Nomination
Message:
Please post this in a conspicuous place
It is the essence of the 1984 syndrome
most existing premies and ex-satguru himself suffer from
it should be required reading.

it frames a central weirdness
that any loyal premie must honestly face
i have yet to meet one who can.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:32:52 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 'Amnesia' question: reply to Mike Fronke
Message:
Good questions and post, Nigel.

I don't personally care for the kitty reference, although, as a simile it does create a vivid picture of 'impossibility'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 02:44:41 (GMT)
From: This is just wonderful!!!
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Excellent(NT)
Message:
NT
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:53:27 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: I nominate this thread for the best of the forum
Message:
page
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 00:10:50 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: tolerance, truth, and coming to peace again
Message:
Let's foster a healthy environment for exes, others, and concerned premies alike. An open forum of mutual respect -- and let's don't scare anyone off (unless, of course, they get too vulgar or disrespectful themselves -- whatever the viewpoint).

Again, let's get to the truth -- was Seva Corp. formed for tax or insurance liability purposes, or does it hide a much more sinister motive and import? More info/evidence, anyone?! Please.

Also, when is EVI finally going to own up to the Jagdeo child abuse cases, and at least acknowledge those victims who have suffered? This is disgraceful conduct.

To recover and heal, obviously some people (probably thousands of 'em) still have to get beyond the denial stage -- the denial that some really bad stuff has happened in the supposed name of something they took to be the ultimate good... That's a hard thing for many to even look at honestly, let alone accept -- let alone deal with.

Let's let the concerned but wavering people (aka premies) know that, yes, you can still practice and enjoy meditation (Kn), and no, you won't be damned for questioning any drivel and seeking the factual truth -- and yes, there are innumerable others who have traveled this path, and come to a place of peace within themselves. It's still there -- within you.

Peace to all

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 22:11:44 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Jumping to confusions... (continued)
Message:
(cont from thread below…)

The only factor I can see which makes M in any way remarkable is his confidence. This complete lack of self-doubt is the ace in his pack: his peripheral cue-card supreme. And confidence inspires confidence; it tells Shroomananda – as it told all of us – that Maharaji knows something.

Teaching my first ever class of students I was so nervous I had to hold on to a desk to stop myself shaking. I must have been bloody awful – bad nerves do not reassure anyone that you know your stuff. But with practice you improve: the more you relax, the more your word is trusted and appreciated. The more you are trusted, the greater your confidence. It is a self-reinforcing feedback loop. Maharaji has always been trusted, has never been confronted or challenged whilst performing. As perceived divinity and bestower of knowledge he is, in fact, worshipped and adored – and has been since early childhood. His confidence is thus unassailable.

Cults rarely (if ever?) offer as their raison d’etre a set of ideas or a philosophy which may be evaluated in its own right. (And before any premie starts spluttering the usual at this point … trying ‘Knowledge’ for oneself is not a test of ‘Maharaji’s’ divinity, or even of his special understanding). All cults depend heavily or exclusively on peripheral route processing - and Maharaji more than most. Whereas TM has reams of published theoretical information and the Krishna’s founder, Prabhupada, wrote and translated dozens of books in his lifetime, Maharaji has never done more than improvise and ramble before a live audience - effectively bypassing the hated ‘central route’ of the mind, and to enduring effect…

(That premies cannot tell ‘real M’ from ‘fake M’ is strong evidence for the irrelevance of the content of his addresses to the cult process.)

Ultimately the cult thrives on two delusions:

The first is that Mahahaji knows something the rest of us don’t. Yet there is nothing he has ever said, not a concept explained, a hidden secret revealed
which a premie could put their finger on and use as evidence to support this belief.

If they could, they would have done so by now.

The second delusion is that whatever the premie feels in meditation arises through contact with the Master – whether through know-how explained, 'darshan' bestowed or 'gift of Knowledge' given.

Both delusions are articles of faith and no more.

As many here would testify (not me – my life is too short to waste time in meditation), you can free yourself from both delusions and experience as much or as little from ‘Knowledge’ as you ever did - if that's what you want.

You can experience much more from life, that's for sure.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:31:15 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: confidence.
Message:
I do not think so. Do you really think he is confident? Take a quick look at his life. Where did he start and when?

India and surrounded by hundreds of brainwashed, simple minded, myth believing little Indians. Father and mother already had it going for him. Compare that to other real life situation, where the child grows in the shadow of a loving father. It is training. Repeated training, over and over and over, hundreds and hundreds of time. Maharaji is an expert on being a Guru. He behaves and acts the role perfectly in a crowed. And that is all. He has no idea how to talk one to one. He never had and he never will, it is not in his dictionary to wake up at 7, get to work at 9 and come home in a traffic jam at 6. No. He has not done a decent day of work in his life. It was all given to him on a plate.

He was cleaver enough to realize that what he was dealing with is power. It can control people. When he was left hanging with his pants in the early years, he used that to save his ass. Kept singing the glories, the condition was right and ripe for a canary to sing-a-song. People came, with them money came too. You know the rest.

That reinforced his way of thinking:- it is power that he had. There is always someone out there that will fall for him. Like fishermen. Ever seen a fisherman coming back from a fishing trip with no fish. There is the rock fisherman, who climbs a rock near the beach and sits there all day for a fish or two, and then there are the large multi-million dollar trollers. But there is no difference; both are doing the same thing.

Confidence comes way after you have proved that a method work.
A thief that looks for empty houses, with no alarms in a deserted area is cleaver. If his way works without being caught, he becomes confident. This will be his line of work. Put this thief in an urban and he will be behind bars in no time.
Having done that for so long, one becomes an expert and can spread out a little or as much as he wants.

Maybe it is better to say the maharaji “portrays to be confident”.

I will not daught that.

Thus his apparent confidence and his portrayal of his confidence will answer the two questions/ remarks that you have posted.

Coming back, anyone that hears maharaji for the first time will have to opinion of him. First, he is a bullshit merchant and he will be ignored, or second he knows something tell me more.

The former will have to believe what maharaji says, that leads to taking knowledge and to sitting under a blanket, fidgeting, wondering what the hell is going on. The apprentice goes back again to conji and conji tells him to go and sit under the blanket and it is a circle. That is when the cult comes into play.
Conji knows his job, he send delegates to tell you/apperentice that you need to sit under the blanket again and get you to talk about how good it is to sit under the blanket, when you know that you hate that blanket.
The rest is called the psychology of conforming to the group. You do not want to get the boot, so the poor little sausage is now hooked. If he does not sit under his blanket he will lose his friends, he will be alone (because he told everyone to bugger off) and his life will be meaningless. Ten years of this and a shroom is born. It takes more than a plumber rench to unscrew a head like that.

Fear of loss, is the oldest and dirtiest trick that a salesman uses to entice someone to buy. It works each and evrytime. It is what keeps auctions alive. (Ever been to a real auction and suddenly had the urge to bid, if not try it. But take my advice, do not buy anything)

But it is soooooo beautiful. Because after millions of years of evolution, the human mind appears to be capable of revert to its origin state. A balanced equilibrium.

It is a state where the organism, for some reason or another deprograms itself and follows its original program,
which is; I must minimize my pain, and so, overnight, deprogramming occurs.


So, what do you think of all this gobble gook?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 09:42:52 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: all
Subject: The conditioning-the inspiration
Message:
The lack of the ability to have any critical thought by cult members is astounding! Something just occured to me that I can't remember ever thinking about or hearing anyone talk about when I was a true believer. It is so obvious a chink in M's armour. It is such a blatant glich in the whole damn routine. It was there all the time but seemed to go completely un-noticed. It is so ridiculously a case of 'The Satguru's New Clothes'. It is quite simply this:

For all the blabbering on and on by M and everyone else about how meditating on this knowledge was the ultimate end-all be-all...WHY HAS HE NEVER (to my knowledge anyway) EVER EVER
MEDITATED WITH HIS PREMIES?????? WHY HAS HE NOT JUST SHOWN BY EXAMPLE AT A FESTIVAL HOW BLISSFUL IT IS TO SIT WITH HIM AND MEDITATE TOGETHER, BY THE THOUSANDS? WHY DOES HE PREFER TO DRONE ON WITH SATSANG TO INSPIRE THE PRACTISE OF MEDITATION WHEN SAYING 'ENOUGH TALK NOW, LET'S ALL JUST SIT HERE IN MEDITATION FOR AN HOUR AND ENJOY THIS EXPERIENCE OF KNOWLEDGE?' Wouldn't THAT be the best inspiration of all?

The answer? Because HE IS ALL TALK!!! A COMPLETE HYPOCRITE TALKING FOR HOURS ABOUT HOW TALKING WON'T GET YOU THERE! HE IS ALL TALK ....NO MEDITATION!
But it is never noticed while you are programed!!!

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:07:12 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: I seem to recall....
Message:
That M did do a group meditation,once. I think it was Rome but am not 100% sure. I think the meditation was billed as a knowledge review. I'll ask my husband,he may remember more details. All I remember for sure was all the hype around it and how bored I was. Of course lots of premies said 'It was the best meditation I ever had!' Yeah right.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 22:08:00 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Jumping to confusions ... 'M KNOWS something'
Message:
I have a friend writing-up her doctorate in the area of schizophrenia – its effects and underlying causes. She asked me to proof-read her thesis, which I expected to be over-technical and difficult to follow. In the event it wasn’t too bad, and I ended up fascinated by the medical research into delusional thinking (meaning delusions generally – not just in schizophrenics). Until recently, it seems, medics and neuropsychologists believed that recurrent, pathological delusions arise through a dysfunction in the brain, whether chemical or bad wiring (and in schizophrenia there is some evidence for an organic basis).

But they are now more careful about applying the ‘either / or’ distinction when diagnosing or attributing causes: very often a ‘deluded’ belief may arise through perfectly normal mental processes. The belief is still delusional (ie. demonstrably false), but the processes which led a person to the belief may often be 'sort-of' rational. These are the everyday ‘heuristics’ or rules of thumb we all use when interpreting the world and evaluating situations - mental short-cuts which are mostly reliable, but frequently are not.

And unless there is some means of testing the validity of a belief (eg. either a woman is carrying a Martian baby, or she is not - this is not a matter of opinion..!) it can be pretty difficult to distinguish the rationally-acquired belief from a delusional belief.

So in psychiatry the ‘either / or’ perspective is gradually being replaced by a ‘continuum’, approach to delusions: both the ‘normal’ person and the diagnosed ‘schizophrenic’, at various times, make judgements which might fall anywhere on that spectrum of functionality - and by processes which are not necessarily rational, and will do so in all situations where confirmatory evidence is unavailable. (The study of heuristics also links the neurological stuff to my own research area of ‘social cognition’ and altered states etc.)

And – as usual – I couldn’t help noticing the cult-relevance…

Lower down a premie who shall remain nameless (since – for once – this thread is NOT about him) tells how, on seeing M for the first time he:

‘…felt that Maharaji knows something…’

What this literally means is:

'either a feeling he had whilst listening, or else a message understood, led him to form the belief that Maharaji knows something. '

As must have once happened for all of us…

In fact, we all must have turned up at our first introductory satsang at least half-persuaded that ‘Maharaji knows something’, or we wouldn’t have bothered. An unconscious rule-of-thumb tells us that an individual is never placed on a stage (whether classroom, pulpit or satsang chair) to address the many unless they know something the audience doesn’t. And unless the speaker makes some glaring factual errors, and provided we in the audience feel ok and our interest is stimulated, we don’t question the assumption that he/she ‘knows something’, irrespective of whether we gained or understood something from listening.

In the case of Maharaji, I think we eventually accept our understanding will only arrive by a sort of ‘osmosis of affect’, rather than the evaluation of a message and conversion to a viewpoint. Stick around and we’ll ‘catch’ some profound perception lying behind or beyond the words (which so much of the time were an unstructured muddle: both confused and confusing. How ever did we manage to praise M's ‘clarity’?)

But the ‘one-speaks / many-listen-and-learn’ heuristic must be ingrained from earliest childhood: from infant school, Sunday School, synagogue, parents teaching kids etc. We trust the informant is qualified to inform by virtue of their just being there doing the informing, and that the others - less qualified - are still learning.

Psychologists researching attitude change and persuasion distinguish between ‘Central Route’ and ‘Peripheral Route’ processing. Central route processing means, simply, that the listener focuses on the message itself, critically evaluates it before accepting or rejecting it.

Peripheral route processing deals with the (often hidden) cues which lead us to formulate short-cut conclusions about both the speaker and the message. The less we are able to employ the central route, the more we will use the peripheral. There are dozens of peripheral-cue effects, well-known to politicians, evangelists and marketing departments. Most insidious about them is their effectiveness even when we know they are present. We are all subtly affected by adverts even when the psychological manipulation is blatant.

Why? Because peripheral cues change how we feel…

Typical cues include the speaker’s charm or attractiveness, their reputation, their smile, the style of delivery, their title (‘professor’ or ‘great king’) etc.

Others deal with the manipulation of the setting: the building, the seating, lighting and – especially – the music. Almost every conceivable variable irrelevant to the message may be manipulated in some way. (The message itself may also be effectively ‘cued’ to include many irrelevant yet significant emotional triggers.)

And peripheral cues are powerful: powerful enough to bypass the conscious mind entirely, yet still gain people’s trust and confidence.

[Two paragraphs removed here by Forum Admin at author's request.]

(cont…)

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 23:20:27 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: He's gotta be the One...just look at that throne!
Message:
Throne, or mega-elevated luxury office chair with beautiful flowers, nice suit etc.

One thing this great post explains is why it is impossible to engage premies in rational conversation...conversation in which words mean what they are generally accepted to mean, vs. the Lewis Carroll paradigm of the relationship of words to meaning:
'They mean whatever you want them to mean!'

Just as you said, it is not the message that matters, it's the peripherals, which take center stage in the premies' emotional
makeup. That's why no theological debate is possible with premies: adoration, not theology, is at the core of the premies' experience.

I am not unilaterally opposed to the bhakti path (a path which, by the way, does not mandate anti-intellectualism). It's just too bad the object of worship is such a vacuous playboy.

I used to think the absence of theology was a plus in DLM, and, in a sense it was, if you compare DLM with cults with ultra-wacky premises like Scientology or the Unification Church.

But mindlessness is a terrible way to live!

Thanks for that info...it really does clarify how we all got involved in the first place!

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 19:18:10 (GMT)
From: JTF
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Fascinating
Message:
I had just got up the courage to watch a few minutes of a rawat video. Only a few minutes because I could only stomach so much. Anyway, I had noticed how he employs a very subtle positive head nod to help encourage agreement. Thinking back on it now, I seem to recall his mahatmas/initiators/instructors using the same technique..I can see Joan Aptor in particular using this very subtle ploy.

Thanks, Nigel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:44:13 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Nigel
Subject: Jumping to confusions ... 'M KNOWS something'
Message:
nigel,
i'm just reading 'mapping the mind' by rita carter- it could be all bullshit (just started)- but its mapping areas in the brain where things happen and they talk about stimulating a certain part and people experience 'enlightenment' feelings. Do you know much about this in your field?
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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 20:18:42 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: sam
Subject: Jumping to confusions ... 'M KNOWS something'
Message:
Hi sam,(and belated welcome to forum),

I haven't read the Carter book, but heard her interviewed and like her approach.

There is quite a lot of stuff by others on 'temporal lobe' effects: how minor electromagnetic stimulation of the temporal lobe areas of the brain can induce powerful hallucinations. (The same areas are involved in epileptic seizures.)

A Canadian guy, Leon Persinger, who has done a lot of work in the area has also linked periods of high magnetic disturbance in the earth's crust with people reporting paranormal experiences - and Susan Blackmore has suggested TL seizures may also be responsible for many 'alien abduction' experiences.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:52:49 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Jumping to confusions ... 'M KNOWS something'
Message:
hey sam send me your email and we can discuss meditation if you want or better still are you on icq?
buzz
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 23:08:03 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: The President's Speech by Oliver Sachs
Message:
can be found in a collection of his writings called The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat first published in 1985 by Gerald Duckworth, ISBN 0-330-29491-1.

The patients were not suffering from Alzeimers, however. They were mostly aphasiacs who may have been intellectually unimpaired except in their ability to process spoken language. Sachs described them as 'wordless, but immensely sensitive patients.'

One was not aphasic at all, but suffering from tonal agnosia, could understand only the narrow semantic meaning of the words spoken by 'the Great Communicator'.

Her reaction was not amusement at the grotesque incongruities of Reagan's performance - 'the grimaces, the histrionics, the false gestures and, above all, the false tones and cadences of the voice...', no her assessment was either he is brain damaged or he has something to conceal.

The article is immensely worth reading, and rereading. G, in particular, I think might enjoy it, and the other studies in Sach's wonderful book.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 23:12:39 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JohnT
Subject: I stand corrected - but it's 'Sacks' not 'Sachs'
Message:
Thanks John. It's a few years since I read it.

(but the point about 'peripheral' cues still stands, I think, if not in quite the way I intended.

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 20:05:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Outrageous! I've been censored by the admins...
Message:
Only kidding... Having looked at the Sacks essay again, I realise I've quite seriously mispresented him so asked the FA to delete the offending paragraphs. This he/she has done.

I realise I must have mixed up the 'Reagan Speech' episode with something I read about Alzheimers patients still being highly sensitive to mood and emotional tone even when they have lost all powers of comprehension.

So, sorry Oliver Sacks and thanks John T for the correction - and, yes, the 'Man who mistook his wife...' is a great book.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 19:29:32 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Satellite Transmission
Message:
Who does EV/GM uses for this service?

Well, there is a little note on Vision's website

[http://visions-catalog.org/visionsinternational/sep3broademn.html]

Saying:

CHANNEL
Tune in to DISH Network, Channel 9602, Satellite 119

A simple search on the net came up with hundreds of links to this web site:

http://www.dishnetwork.com/

The little gizmo that does the trick is a desktop satellite dish. Interestingly it uses a 'smart card'. I am not sure if this is THE Smart Card. But this one appears to be samrt enough to transfer money from one account to another using the gizmo. Very convenient for wallet shaffting. Better get up to date, you do not know, one day you may land a job as a satellite repair man and come across number 119.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:55:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Two very, very funny Happy Clapper posts from ELK
Message:
The first is from one of the last premies in the world, Ms. Carol Jones from Ithaca, New York. Note the close call and the subtle but unmistakeable divine intervention. These fools almost had to talk to one another.

Carole Jones:

Power outage

From Ithaca, New York


Last night a thunderstorm knocked out the power in the middle of the aspirant video program I was having at my house. Ira, a friend with Knowledge, had stopped by a few minutes before the program started, to drop off something for me, and had decided to stay for the program. As we sat in the pitch dark hoping maybe the power might come back on, I remembered that Ira had a battery and inverter in his van for his TV and VCR. I mentioned it to him, he brought it in and hooked it up, and we were able to continue with the program.

After the program, Ira told me that he had had one of those days where it seemed like nothing was going right, where he ran into glitches with everything he tried to do. He had meant to come by my house several hours earlier, but he wasn't able to, because he'd gotten bogged down with something he was doing that wasn't coming together as it should have. He hadn't planned to stay for the program when he came by, but at the last minute decided to stay. I'm awfully glad he did!

Then there's this particulary revealing -- and thus all the mroe disgusting -- post from another of the last premies in the world, Ms. Janice Wilson from Baldwinsville, New York. I think I once said that I'd like to squeeze her face. Well, I take that back. What I'd like to do is deprogram her. Woudln't you?

Janice Wilson:

Trust

From Baldwinsville, New York


Trusting my teacher can be easy
but trusting myself, my own heart, takes a lot more.
It is like being a blind person who can't see
but can only feel their way along
It's great, though, because as I learn to follow those inner feelings,
bliss becomes my life companion


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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:22:38 (GMT)
From: I thought I add this note
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: to Mike Shroomji
Message:
From enjoying life:

http://www.enjoyinglife.org/enjoylife/knowledge.nsf/frame_sets/English_Site_Expect

But just before you do, here is how this web site is run.

No anonymous contributions will be posted. Everything published will be attributed with first and family name and city and country of residence.

Credit card and driving licence and medicare card and passport and bank account and anything else that will tell us where to find you. This is just a precaution, in case we need to contact you.

FA, would that slove the problem of anonymousity on this forum?

Salam

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 18:26:24 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: I thought I add this note
Subject: Why do you lie?
Message:
This is what is written on this page:

'If you would care to share your experience too, you are most welcome, even if English is not your first language.

But just before you do, here is how this web site is run.

No anonymous contributions will be posted. Everything published will be attributed with first and family name and city and country of residence.

Please keep only to what you know, from your own experience, to be true.'

But honesty might not be an attribute of ex-premies

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:44:40 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: What is true about Knowledge
Message:
From your experience?

Why not demonstrate your own proclivity for the truth and tell us who you are and/or what other names you have posted under? Maybe we'll learn by example.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 23:07:32 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: What is true about Knowledge
Message:
First of all, I have changed nick names. I have even posted under my real name. The traumatic reasons for changing names I have explained to the FA several times. I have been blocked due to accusations that were not true. I consider the real reason for the blocking was cencorship. I hate cencorship and lack of freedom, so I had to fight to be unblocked.

The blocking I think happened because I was accused to out a person or to use another persons nick. I never did so.

I am not going to continue to post here, or maybe just occasionally. If I ever post again, it will be under the name The observant. My posts will in nature not be for the purpose to discuss, but will seek to make observations that are unbiased.

BTW I need not reply to your post. I choose to do so, partly because in one of my aliases, (Robin I think)I was accused of being you. English is not my native language so I do not understand why.

In my experience, the X-P community, usually will attack the man and distract comments by abusive attitudes or by asking questions that has nothing to do with the issue. Like you just did.
Bjørn

Ps.- I still hope to be respected and not be outed. I have really bad experiences about this.

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Date: Wed, Sep 20, 2000 at 04:18:46 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Are You Bjorn? You signed Bjorn to your post. nt
Message:
fup
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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 13:02:22 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: What is true about Knowledge
Message:
I have picked a nick name, as many others. This is supposed to be a privelege here. Outing is not allowed here at the Forum and those who do so, is supposed to be blocked.

A lie was exposed. That has nothing to do with my person.

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 03:46:53 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Hang on a minute
Message:
You just made a sweeping generalization about ex-premies being dishonest. Are you familiar with the expression 'The pot calling the kettle black'? Essentially it comments on the absurdity of making an accusation toward someone when the same applies to yourself, OK?

Well now, I asked you without prejudice, if you have posted under any other 'nick names'. You could have simply said 'no', if that were true, or 'yes' and listed them, if THAT were true. Same goes for your real name - you could have given it and added considerable weight to your argument. Instead you immediately go on the defensive about 'outing'. Why? To what are you referring?

Seeing how you are so well informed of the rules here, you also know that posting under numerous 'nick names' is also reason to be blocked, so I can only assume that these are your first posts here? So do you still feel in a position to question OUR honesty?

When you've done answering that, perhaps you would care to answer my first, less confronting question, namely what is true about Knowledge from your experience?

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 07:46:23 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Hang on a minute
Message:
Hi Rob
For strong personal reasons I do not want to discuss my person. I hope this will be respected.

Re your question: What is true about Knowledge?

There are 3 concepts about Knowledge according to my understanding:

The concept of the 'method': 'Knowledge is a method to go inside'. If it is good for you to practice Knowledge is obvious different opinions about.

The concept of the experience
'Knowledge brings you in touch with the infinite'. Also here opinions differ.

The concept of the importance of the master:
'The master has the ability to bring you to the experience of the infinite' Definitely different opinions about this issue!

In my experience it gives a good feeling to Practice Knowledge. I have been in touch with what I believe is the 'infinite' (no borders, no beginning, no end, and no limits). I also believe that by the help of my master, I was allowed to have these experiences. (If he is the only one who can do so, I don't know)

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 17:12:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: What is true about forum rules
Message:
First,

You're not allowed to change your name in order to confuse people as to the fact that you were, or are, posting under another name.

As far as 'outing', the FA's are certainly not allowed to use their special powers to out someone, unless, of course, it's to flush out an offender of the other rule above. However, that's not the same as saying that we all have some sort of obligation to protect each other's identities if we know them. Bullshit. That's just a matter of your own personal ethics.

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 20:01:41 (GMT)
From: The observant
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What is true about forum rules
Message:
1. I stick to this nickname.
2. Here are the rules.We always welcome new participants to the Forum, but please read the following before you enter.


'We advise that you read the messages for a few days before you begin posting. This will give you a general idea of what people are talking about, and of the style of communication commonly used here.

If you wish to post anonymously, pick a pseudonym, and stick to it. This will prevent confusion, and help people get to know you.

If you are a current premie, be aware that most of the people who post on the Forum are ex-premies, and that some ex's will be expressing negative feelings towards Maharaji and his organization. If you post pro-Maharaji messages, you may be met with anger or ridicule. Be prepared for this, but don't let it deter you from expressing your own views and feelings here.

Many of the Forum participants have been posting here for some time, and have gotten to know each other fairly well. Sometimes participants will make references to people or situations you are unfamiliar with. Don't be afraid to ask for an explanation.

Because many of the people who post have gotten to know each other over time, they often tease, insult, or argue with each other. As in any group of people, a person's best side may not be the side that they are currently showing in their latest post. Human relations are a dynamic condition rather than a static one and are subject to change over time - for the better or the worse.

A certain amount of talking and joking about subjects that are unrelated to Maharaji does happen on the forum. We don't encourage or discourage this.

Try to be reasonably civil when posting messages on the Forum, but be aware that 'flaming' does occur here at times.

We actively discourage making violent threats of ANY kind, or posting under another person's name or pseudonym. Any posts that violate these simple rules may be deleted or edited by us. Repeat offenses will result in a block being placed on the orignating service provider's IP address, causing posts submitted from that location to be discarded. If you choose to participate in the Forum, you must post responsibly.

Anything posted here is freely usable by us on any site pages we might wish to create. Posters lose all editorial rights to their posts when they click on the Submit button.
Note: This Forum supports embedded HTML within a post. However, do NOT attempt to embed any links into your posts that cause Graphics files, or Java Applets, etc, to load into the browsers of readers of this Forum without them first choosing to click on a visible link. When we see this, we will delete or edit the post. If you wish to provide a link to either, there are instructions available on the Forum_Help page.'

Except for this a practice I have observed is that people outing others have been blocked.

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 21:42:13 (GMT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: The guidelines will be amended soon...
Message:
... to include multi-alias posting, spamming, incitement to violence, over-doing the 'off-topic' threads, a clearer policy on editing and blocking etc.

There will probably also be clause to allow forum admins to use their discretion to limit the output of premies trying to monopolise every discussion - expecially where it is clear that most posters are getting truly fed up with them, as happened with 'Shroomananda'.

You have no 'rights' here, observant, and thus cannot complain about rights denied.

But why not just think of the forum as a precious opportunity to share your thoughts about Maharaji and his cult? There is nowhere else on the web you can do that.

You are, of course, always free to start your own internet forum and write your own rulebook if you are not happy with what you find here.

Enjoy your stay.
Forum Administrator

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:16:28 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: A couple of questions
Message:
1. Can you explain your 'handle?' Did you mess-up trying to write 'Observer' or are you Kosher or something? What do you mean by 'the Observant'
2. Do you realize that 'the Observant' doesn't make sense?
3. Do you consider yourself fair and un-biased?
4. Why are you here? Are you observanting?
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:27:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: 'Observant' as an adjective sounds ok to me,Miguel
Message:
.

... and Salaam's emboldened misquote of EV doesn't do this place any favours.

PS
'Fair and unbiased?' - who is, these days?

As for who 'The observant' is, well ... at least he/she's not claiming to be clairvoyant (not that you are either) - that was given just in case you need another example of the '...ant' suffix.

(forgive me, but legs are for standing on, and where none are evident, ... a crutch?)

.
.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 23:17:28 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'Observant' as an adjective sounds ok to me,Miguel
Message:
I agree, it works as an adjective, but this person is using it as a proper name. It should be 'the observant ____________.' This person is the observant 'what?' premie? lurker? enjoyer of listening to M?
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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 11:47:34 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Adjectival noun, to be precise - and picky! (nt)
Message:
sdfd
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 16:29:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Verbal noun surely?!! (nt)
Message:
sdv
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 17:01:49 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: That would be the ObservING (nt)
Message:
a;sldkfj
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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 17:01:06 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Correction: it's a verbal adjectival noun...?!!
Message:
No you're right all along, cq, a verbal noun from 'observe' would be, say, the 'observing' of a cult ritual, wouldn't it?

Sorry.

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 17:04:40 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Allo! you online? (OT)
Message:
Well, isn't that synchronicity just sooooo amazing!

How goes it, Nige? Hope your Uni lecturing is fulfilling for you.

Are you going to Harrogate?

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 17:48:25 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Allo! you online? (OT)
Message:
Wotcher, Chris, yeah, I'm online, and at the uni. Teaching hasn't started yet, but will soon be pretty hectic. Fulfilling? Hmm, dunno, really... a sense of doing something useful, I guess. Just getting my tea (herrings and jacket potatoes). Then off to the alehouse to discuss the meaning of it all...

When's Harrogate? I hadn't planned to go, but it could be interesting if there were any remote chance of me getting in...

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:07:16 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Guess we must be (definitely NOT Off Topic)
Message:
When is Harrogate?

I hadn't made any plans to go (far from it) but as an exercise in sociological observation, it might be interesting.

So I went to EV's home page, and blimey, if someone hasn't been busy over there. Flash multimedia intro now! (to see it, click on:
http://www.elanvital.org/index.htm
then DON'T click on 'skip intro'. It's worth a look, purely from the point of view of registering how they're trying to appeal to the masses these days.)

Anyway, about Harrogate. It says:

'September 27, Harrogate, UK
For people who have received the
techniques of Knowledge. Due to limited
seating, these events are for the people
from UK and Ireland only.'

Now at the moment, it all depends on the difference between petrol and paraffin. (i.e. there's no f in petrol).

But if you're free that day, (27th is a Wednesday, I believe - awkward bloody time of week for those of us who work) post here, and I might find the urge to go). (A reason for going hopefully comes later.)

What do you think?

Regards,

Chris

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Date: Tues, Sep 19, 2000 at 18:11:04 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Nigel et al
Subject: This link might work properly (then again) ...
Message:
Try this:

http://www.elanvital.org/index.htm

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:50:02 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Why is it misquoted?
Message:
emboldened adj : made bold or courageous

ob·ser·vant (b-zûrvnt)
adj.

Quick to perceive or apprehend; alert: an observant traveler. See Synonyms at careful.
Diligent in observing a law, custom, duty, or principle: observant of the speed limit.

It is straight out of their page. I did not change it. I included the link, in case someone wants to check the reference. I do not see what is so misqouted about that.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:59:19 (GMT)
From: The obeservant
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Why is it misquoted?
Message:
This quote I did not find on the site:

'Credit card and driving licence and medicare card and passport and bank account and anything else that will tell us where to find you. This is just a precaution, in case we need to contact you.'

I checked the site, and did not find it. I quoted what was written.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 20:41:10 (GMT)
From: We know you
Email: None
To: The obeservant
Subject: obeseservant- go forth and multiply nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 22:17:48 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: The obeservant
Subject: Peek-a-boo! Nah, that's not you is it MF? nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 21:05:11 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: The obeservant
Subject: Ah you are a boofhead aren't you?
Message:
The part that was in bold writing is what was on the page, the rest is mine.

What a bummer?

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 21:53:59 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Salam
Subject: Salam, you can't do that with them
Message:
Salam,

You can't play games like that with Premies because they are conditioned to blindly believe everything they see or hear no matter how absurd or ridiculous it might be.

And, Mr. Observant is watching us very closely.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:05:46 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: He is, isn't he?
Message:
like a cricket umpire.

I don't know why, but I can only visualize 'The observant '
as being in a straight jacket. What a baby.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:59:37 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Roger
Subject: Anyway, coming back to the subject of
Message:
Mike shroom Ferji

Since he could only post on that site by providing his details to EV, what sort of conversation do thing is taking place between him and EV?

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 18:47:20 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Why do you lie?
Message:
Oh courageos one,

Have you asked maharaji the same question?
or is he beyond questioning?

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 18:45:16 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: The observant
Subject: Why do you lie?
Message:
Ah you such a cleaver dick aren't you? Did not you see that I put the link also, or are you so dumb that you can only hear the birds flying in your head.

Salam

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 18:49:39 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: This is the usual type of premie coward.nt
Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:26:58 (GMT)
From: Steve / Hal
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Recovery and healing
Message:
Hi everyone,

Having been involved in this forum for a period of 6 months I am grateful to have had the opportunity to express a varying range of thoughts and feelings about my involvement with Maha and his guru worshipping cult. I was involved for a period of 28 yrs with two breaks , one of 3 yrs and one of 5 yrs . So 20 yrs of actually being right in there. I've had the pleasure of being extremely rude about FATCON and even towards some extremely tedious premie rhetoric. I'm very appreciative of the support and cameraderie between us exes here.

I now , probably controversially, feel that it's time to forgive myself for being duped and even to forgive Maha his dellusions in duping me and others. I need to take the next step in my recovery process.

Two ex prisoners of the japanese during the second world war were talking of their experiences. One said to the other ex prisoner' Have you forgiven your captors ? ' The other replied ,' NO NEVER !' The first ex-prisoner looked with kindness at his friend and said ' Well, then they still have you in prison then , don't they '.

While self forgiveness is essential IMO the wounds that have been caused by Maha in me are also a gate for my healing. I have judged both myself and Maha harshly, carrying on my battle with the past; even with life itself. I am convinced that my next step involves having the courage to forgive.

I can respect both beauty and suffering, my entanglements and confusions. I have had feelings of betrayal in many areas of my life , including the Maharaji trip and have accepted them. I hold more compassion than I had imagined.

The sufi poet Rumi said it this way.

This being human is a guesthouse
Every morning a new arrival

A joy, a depression , a meanness
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all
even if they're a crowd of sorrows.
who violently sweep your house empty of its furniture.

Still treat each guest honourably.
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.
The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
Meet them at the door laughing
and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent as a guide.
RUMI

I do not denegrate or invalidate the expression of anger, bitterness and hurt on this forum . Many of us need or have needed to shout out our frustrations and hurt.

Personally , I don't want to dwell in those emotions and I hope to move on in recovery and healing.

I hope that in addition to the activist stance and antagonism towards premies and Mahaha that there is room here for additional expression; such as what next and the ex-premies post cult processes.

Steve aka Hal

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:00:03 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Steve / Hal
Subject: Well said. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 23:55:26 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Steve / Hal
Subject: Recovery and healing -- lots for lots of people
Message:
Yes, recovery and healing...

Let's foster a healthy environment for exes, others, and concerned premies alike. An open forum of mutual respect -- and let's don't scare anyone off (unless, of course, they get too vulgar or disrespectful themselves -- whatever the viewpoint).

Again, let's get to the truth -- was Seva Corp. formed for tax or insurance liability purposes, or does it hide a much more sinister motive and import? More info/evidence, anyone?! Please.

Also, when is EVI finally going to own up to the Jagdeo child abuse cases, and at least acknowledge those victims who have suffered? This is disgraceful conduct.

To recover and heal, obviously some people (probably thousands of 'em) still have to get beyond the denial stage -- the denial that some really bad stuff has happened in the supposed name of something they took to be the ultimate good... That's a hard thing for many to even look at honestly, let alone accept -- let alone deal with.

Let's let the concerned but wavering people (aka premies) know that, yes, you can still practice and enjoy meditation (Kn), and no, you won't be damned for questioning any drivel and seeking the factual truth -- and yes, there are innumerable others who have traveled this path, and come to a place of peace within themselves.

Peace to all

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:45:33 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Steve / Hal
Subject: Recovery and healing
Message:
Hey I actually liked the Rumi poem!

What next? Who knows, but I think it's fine to forget all about the cult and the FatCon. No need to dwell upon it anymore. You put your time in, that's for sure.

Me ? Nah, I'm not forgiving the man until he admits his wrongdoing, says he's sorry and steps down off the stage. And he returns my Fender (TM) Mustang.

'Fly away oh butterfly thy crysalis has shattered! Thou art forever free.' (Gerumi)

'We'll keep alight on fer ya.' (Tawdry radio commercial for cheap stinky motel chain.)

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 22:13:38 (GMT)
From: hAL
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Thanks bro'- keep up the good work nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 14:55:10 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Why do you volunteer to support Elan Vital?
Message:
On EV's page FEEDBACK at:

http://www.elanvital.org/vol_feedback.htm

EV asks these two question:

1- 'Why do you volunteer to support Elan Vital?'
2- 'What do you experience in being a volunteer?'

Interestingly, from all the replies that are posted- except for one- non of them says what the person did and where he did it.

I am sure there are some here that have 'volunteered' their time
for EV. If you have, can you tell us how did you do it?

This is a list of questions that can help you start:

Did you have to fill a form?
Did you get to keep a copy of the form?
Did you have to work under supervision?
Did you pledge to do the work temporarly during an event only?
For how long?
Did someone keep a log?
Did you have to do it overseas? Say India/Australia/Others?
How did you go about doing it when you arrived to the above locations?

Questions, questions and questions. Can we have some REAL FEEDBACK.

Finally, how do you feel now about what you did?

p.s. can we keep it to recent years, 2-to-4. If you can think of anything that I did not ask, please tell.

TA TA

Salam

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:00:54 (GMT)
From: maybe if you supplied an
Email: -
To: Salam
Subject: e-mai addressSalam a lot of people would answer(nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 10:19:18 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: maybe if you supplied an
Subject: There ye go
Message:
What is wroung with posting it? But then maybe...
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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 11:54:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: There ye go one more
Message:
salam_au@iprimus.com.au
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:44:31 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Me again....would like some feedback
Message:
I would like some feedback on whether the ex's here would think it worthwhile for me to become a mole. I could fill out the application for participation in order to insert myself as some eyes and ears. I might also accidentially on purpose leave some flyers laying around directing people attending an event to this site and others. I think that would be my main mission but it would still be fun to report back on the 'event.' What do you all think? Worth the time and effort?
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 22:38:12 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I would imagine that takes some skill
Message:
to pull off successfully. I've been told that the application form asks some very penetrating questions about your background and requires the names of at least three other premies who can vouch for you. I've no personal knowledge of this, but I understand that to get into a position in which Really Useful information could be garnered, you have to be have been around for quite some time and outwardly demonstrate your unquestioning devotion to the Feet.

At a guess, I would also say that you have to strike a fine balance between a keen desire to *participate* and appearing to be too eager, especially in these dark days of rampant suspicion flowing through the nether world of the Virtual Premie Community.

I personally could not contemplate such subterfuge, but it strikes me that it could provide fruitful material for future press releases if you were to go ahead with this.

If you need any practical suggestions, I'm sure the FAs could give you the email address of someone who can help, subject to checking out your credentials, of course;)

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:52:52 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Participation forms
Message:
are avaliable here:

www.elanvital.org/participation_forms/nam_participation.rft

p.s. Rob did you get my e-mails.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:56:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: If you do
Message:
Can you get me a copy ogf the recent questioneer that EV passed around for the registration to the next event at Amaroo, I would appreciate that.

Make sure you do not get caught.

Salam

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 19:54:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Me again....would like some feedback
Message:
It would be great to get information, but if you can stomach going to 'events' and not barfing, you deserve a gold medal. I don't think I could stand it. The last time I saw Maharaji in person, I got up and walked out while he was talking. It felt great, actually. The truly frightening thing was seeing the faces of the premies as I walked out. Positively freaky.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 19:27:35 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: If only ...
Message:
.
.
If only ... this site wasn't called 'ex-premie.org', but something along the lines of 'Maharajitruth.org'

Perhaps that would make the historical aspect of the very thorough research (more thorough than anything ever published by DLM/EV for a start) that this place has put together - would make it more accessible to those who are tempted, but have still yet to receive the 'knowledge'.

Let's wise up the kind of people who'd take knowledge tomorrow (if it wasn't for us). What do you think?
.
.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:34:31 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Tonette
Subject: I'm trying to infiltrate right now
Message:
Actually, for the last couple of months I've been attending some premie events in my area just to see what's going on. It's pretty strange and I really cannot give too many details right now because doing so might blow my cover.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:10:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Sure, have fun (nt)
Message:
gggg
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:05:49 (GMT)
From: Yang
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Go! Go! Go!
Message:
And keep us posted. As for publicity for site, I beleive premies are aware of its existence. An email chain to every premie we got email address of would do just as well. Beside, you would get caught and kicked-out big time. You know these cost money. Knowledge was free but grace is mighty expensive.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:55:37 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Me again....would like some feedback
Message:
Don't mess with OUR LORD's Power. He is omnipotent you know. HIS very thought could zap you to another universe. Back to me Holy NAMe and rum.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:51:45 (GMT)
From: Slash
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: just setting up me guitar and amps now.. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 14:02:01 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Slash
Subject: That's funny. Worth a giggle at least nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:10:51 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: reflections...
Message:
I know most of the threads presented are better composed and longer but I wanted to take a survey of sort.
Reading this forum and most of the information contained here, on Roger's site, Sir Dave's and others has caused me to pause and examine my life of 43 years. I took stock and asked myself, 'What are the three highest moments/points that I have experienced?' I immediately thought of these three events/experiences.
1. The first time my husband to be told me those magic words 'I Love You'
2.The birth of my first child
3.My first organism

Those are memorable experiences to me. I can remember then as if they happened yesterday. I'm curious people if anyone here would like to share theirs.
I would say it is notable that Knowledge and Maharaji don't make the cut. Kinda is a rip off don't you think? Especially when one considers all the endorsements it got.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:14:02 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Can we install spell check for the forum??
Message:
orgasm.
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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 13:45:07 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Good idea, but it wouldn't help in this instance
Message:
'Organism' was spelt correctly!
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 18:52:24 (GMT)
From: Doctor von Frankensteincq
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Ah ... well I remember mine own first organism ...
Message:
... and booger on, as they say ...

(whaddyamean, they don't?)

.
.
.
PS, loved that slip! It's the unintentional ones that are the best.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:08:42 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: It wouldn't have helped anyway, in this case.
Message:
But I thought the organism thing was cute.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 12:52:41 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: That was the best and most... (OT)
Message:
beautifull and amazing Olympic opening I have seen in my life. Good on you Aussie.
Down with maharaji.

Salam

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 09:42:56 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Abi and Susan
Subject: What a year.
Message:
Hi Susan and Abi,

A couple of days ago you both put a message up on the forum, so I thought I’d reply to you both at the same time, particularly as the turd Jagdeo has risen to the surface of the pool again.

It’s only this time last year we were going head on with the cult when we were forcing the matter into the open. At that time, I hadn’t met you Susan, and hadn’t seen you Abi, since you were about eleven. What a year it’s been. Two of the richest days so far were those I spent with you both.

But tonight I remembered that intense time we went through a year ago, when the Sunday Express contacted me, and wanted to do a ‘Cult, Guru, Internet, Paedophile’ story. The cult threatened the paper, and me, with their lawyers, and within 15 minutes of me talking to the paper, John (JHB) in London, and Joe in San Francisco, sent evidence, via the Forum, that the cult were lying and making empty threats. A reporter told me they threatened the paper with legal action if they suggested that the organisation for which Jagdeo worked, Divine Light Mission, was in any way connected with Elan Vital. What a bunch of devious, creeps.

Anyway, there was stuff happening almost every day for a while, and at times it felt like the three of us had our heads down in a trench and bullets were zipping overhead. The cult did not want this matter bringing into the open, and in one of their letters said they would sue if it was in any way suggested that Maharaji was aware of what was going on.

The way I remember it was, something would come up- a reporter wanted to talk to one of you or, a statement had to be given to the police or something, and all the time these incredibly strong emotions were flying around. There were times when I felt like an exhausted, lost little boy with a broken wooden sword, watching the rusty enemy tanks creak into formation on the hillside. I’d check with you both, “Do you want to carry on, or do you want to quit?”

And you’d both reply, “We attack at dawn. Sharpen your bit of wood Anth.”

You were both, truly, inspirational. Give me two feisty, intelligent mums against a millionaire guru, twenty brainwashed graduates, and a bunch of overpriced lawyers anyday. You were great.

There was that flurry of activity around the week that the Express first postponed, then dropped the story. This was when Jonathon Cainer, reportedly Britains best paid journalist, showed up at the Express, ready to leave their rival newspaper, the ‘Mail’, and work for them. It was the time he resigned from Elan Vital, saying he couldn’t be associated with an organisation receiving allegations of child abuse. It was the time he quit the group of people running the cult website, Enjoyinglife.org. It was the time the cult honchos in Britain were running around like they had red-hot pokers up their arses, because they thought there was going to be a story in a national newspaper with a photo of Maharaji, alongside the words, ‘Cult’ and ‘Child Abuse’.

When the story was finally dropped, the reporter told me, “It was for commercial reasons.” I wondered if there were 100,000 “commercial reasons”, an estimated number of loyal readers of my old friend Jonathan’s column, who would switch newspapers when he did. Who knows what went on? Maybe Jon’ will tell me one day. The reporter and some of the staff at the paper were extremely pissed off that the story was spiked. The “Express” had a new editor, who’d been lured from the ‘Independent’, getting paid lots of money to get the flagging circulation up. Whatever the “commercial reasons”, they dropped the story.

I remember, after all we went through, all the phone calls and emails, and what you both had to go through, relating Jagdeos crimes, I felt sort of empty. Our expectations had been raised, then deflated. It had been exhausting, and it looked like we’d got nowhere.

But something important had happened, and we didn’t even realise it at the time. We’d dragged the issue into the open, and it wasn’t going to disappear. Over the last year, there’s been consistent, growing and loyal support from people on the Forum. Sir Dave has made sure that the information and exchanges have all been preserved, and are on record.

Now we know that Jagdeo is a paedophile, who was using his important position and influence in the cult to spend time alone with young children, and commit his serious, and nasty crimes.

We know that these crimes were reported, in different countries, to officials (‘mahatmas’ or ‘instructors’), of the cult, and that Jagdeo was still fully financed, and sent on tours, in the same official capacity. Two instructors ‘can’t remember’ being asked by Susan to report Jagdeo to Maharaji, and ‘can’t remember’ reporting back to her afterwards.

Nobody has come forward and say, ‘You’re lying,’ ‘You imagined it,’ or ‘It never happened’. That’s because it did happen. Lots of people have come forward, including some premies, and expressed sentiments for ‘Mahatma Jagdeo’ (recently retired) like, ‘The bastard deserves a long and painful death.’

And as the year has sneaked by, things look different from last summer, when bullets, threats, and garbage was flying by. The truth stood up through it all, and still it stands. The cult continually shuffle and shift their position. They’ve had lawyers try and close the websites publishing the allegations. They’ve issued pathetic denials, and churned out, ‘of course if it really did happen, then we’d naturally condemn it’, type of crap. They put a pool of drivel on their website, then removed it. They’re continually on the retreat, and pray that one morning they’ll wake up and no longer will people be using the words, ‘cult’, ‘maharaji’ and ‘child abuse’ in the same sentence.

This year, after standing firm last summer, you two have become the cult’s biggest problem. And that’s because they still can’t see that it’s Jagdeo that’s the real problem.

Who would have imagined what a can of worms would wriggle towards the altar, and munch away at that lovely white cloth? And what worms will yet come crawling out the woodwork? Already I’m hearing munching noises from the skirting board.

I’m really glad I got to know you both. You’re both strong, brave wonderful people.

Anth, friend of the feisty women.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:27:01 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What a year.
Message:
Wow Anth! You said it all.

Your support and wisdom all through this has been very important to me. ( Not to mention your wit! )

Really, the turd would not have 'risen' again this time if EV had not put that FAQ up on their website. All of the events I describe were a direct result of my need to respond to that bizarre statement.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 10:09:13 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: What a year.
Message:
Anth,

I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments expressed above, and fully support the action that Susan has taken, but what happened to the police investigation that you allegedly instigated and fleetingly refer to above? Can we expect any action in this area or was it all just 'Anth' rhetoric?

Would you care to update us all on the matter?

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 00:54:03 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Just wondering Mel.....
Message:
What you're interest is in any police investigations into this alleged crime?

Where do you stand on the issue? I mean, you ask if 'we' (BTW how would you define 'we' in this instance, premies, ex-premies or....what?) could expect any action. What action would you personally like to see taken?

I'm asking because I'm interested to know how the average devotee would react if Jagdeo and any who knowingly harbored him from justice were brought to book?

PS You haven't sent in any offerings to ELK Expressions, have you?:)

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:55:23 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Just wondering Mel.....
Message:
Rob

'We' means anyone, premie, ex-premie or 'non'-premie who is outraged by paedophilia. If you want to know where I stand on the issue, read the archives. I'm a parent with a daughter!

What should happen? The perpetrator should be brought to justice, as simple as that. Is this satisfactory? Or does it just not cut muster with your stereotyping of 'premies'.

Anth raised such an expectation with his lengthy posts quite a while ago about getting the police in the UK to investigate the issue, but as far as I know, he has not reported the results or progress of the police investigation.

Why don't you ask him to report on the issue, as well. It's a perfectly legitimate question considering the seriousness of the matter and the undertakings that he gave at the time.

Well, Anth, I'm (and others) are still awaiting your answer!

Mel


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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:49:00 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Behind the scenes
Message:
Well it's nice to see a premie agree that even cult elders should not be immune from the laws of the land. Very refreshing.

As far as Anth's dealings with the authorities goes, I trust his judgement since he has a much greater insight into the whole situation than I. Also, I am certain that whatever information he chooses to share here does not constitute the whole story - much takes place 'behind the scenes' in many areas of ex-premie activities, for obvious reasons.

Maybe it's a simple matter of not wishing to prejudice any legal action with too much public discussion.

I appreciate you answering that, although it does lead into another question: do you feel Elan Vital and Maharaji ought to be more forthcoming in what they know of the situation, and do you think that Maharaji should AT LEAST offer Susan some words of comfort and sympathy, even without admitting liability?

I'm not just 'having a go' at you here, I would really like to get a feel for the view from the other side, as it were.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 02:28:37 (GMT)
From: An impartial observer
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Don't forget my questions Mel
Message:
'Well, Anth, I'm (and others) are still awaiting your answer!'

Well, Mel,and I and others are still awaiting your answers!
'

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 12:45:29 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: An impartial observer
Subject: Don't forget my questions Mel
Message:
I answered Mels question straight after he asked it. My anszer got pushed down below, so maybe you missed it.

Anth the bottom of the barrel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 02:51:29 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: An impartial observer
Subject: Don't forget my questions Mel
Message:
Mr 'impartial' observer,

I've answered your first question already with my response to Rob.

Your question as to 'Does not Maharaji's silence on this subject woory you about his character and motives?' It would if it can could be demonstrated that he has indeed, remained 'silent' and inactive. Cetainly at this point he has remained publicly silent, but from what I can gather from Susan's original post, it would appear that he has not 'remained silent' to EV people, it seems he passed her letter on to EV for response! I doubt whether this would have been a 'silent' process, don't you?

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:11:35 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel
Message:
I truly appreciate the supportive words you have posted.

But it looks like you really are giving Rawat a lot of slack here. What explanation for what Judy said to me is there other than that she told Rawat in 1982? How else would she have known he 'already knew'?

I am not terribly impressed with Rawat's response. Not at all. I think he has known since the seventies and is lying. Not only that, I think that if he told Randy and Judy to remember, they would.

I suppose I screwed up by telling two of the most loyal devotees he could ever hope to have. I am sure there are premies who would say screw you I am telling the truth! But most people who have that kind of character probably left the fold ages ago.

Also, he pretty much was between a rock and a hard place when he got that letter. Since it was going to be pretty easy to prove it was delivered, there had to be some acknowledgement of it. I don't think forwarding it to EV was some sort of noble act.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:48:11 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Mel
Message:
Hi Susan

You've come a long, long way from 'G's mom' in dealing with this issue, especially by taking it directly to Maharaji. In my view you have tremendous moral courage and agree with Dettmers in his introduction of you to Maharaji as a 'person of integrity'.

In your situation I would be unimpressed by Maharaji too, and even NOT in your situation, if Maharaji did indeed know of it as early as you indicate and didn't act, I wouldn't be particularly impressed. I have doubts in this area, though, because (as you stated in your recent post) Maharaji appears to have taken quite decisive action when dealing with the sexual misdemeanours of instructors on other occassions. It's a mystery as to why your case should have been treated any differently. It wouldn't be too unreasonable to conclude that he may not have been told.

If this is the case, then the weak link seems to be the instructors themselves. Did they lie to you when they told you that the issue had been reported? Obviously, you know them, so are better able to judge that than I would. If they did not lie then, they certainly appear to be lying now when if they say they cannot recollect the issue or reporting it to Maharaji.

Anyway, I'm just speculating here, of course.

Good luck and all the best to you and your family.

Take care

Mel

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 23:21:06 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel: what decisive action..?
Message:
Don't want to side track from the main discussion, but you posted:

Maharaji appears to have taken quite decisive action when dealing with the sexual misdemeanours of instructors on other occassions.

Depending on one's viewpoint 'decisive action' could either mean

(a) distancing oneself and one's reputation from the offender

or

(b) calling the police.

An additional option (c) would involve offerring profuse apologies to victims along with social support.

Simply removing the abuser from one's staff list is characteristic of strategy (a). Do you have evidence of M ever doing anything more than this?

Richard Nixon knew all there is to know about being decisive, as do all high placed men and women with a lot to lose. They invariably go for option (a) and leave it at that. Nothing honourable - just a case of doing the bare essential for the sake of their own skins.


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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:04:29 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Sorry to jump in Mel
Message:
But I was just struck by another thought: Does it not seem to you that this (and many, many other) issues could be resolved fairly quickly if Maharaji would simply enter into a dialogue with those concerned?

There have been all manner of quite important and powerful debates going on here over time, and apart from a smattering of real and anonymous premies airing their views, there has been not one word from either Maharaji or anyone at Elan Vital. I know it would be asking too much for the LOTU to started tapping away at his keyboard and posting to the forum, but what about private letters or emails to the worst affected among us?

Doesn't his aloofness bother you? Put it in a more personal perspective: have you ever had a difficult problem or serious doubt which could easily have been washed away had Maharaji only answered your letters or let you talk to him person? What motivates him to completely disregard us like that? Wisdom? Love? Compassion?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:17:23 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Sorry to jump in Mel
Message:
Rob

I can only agree with that more personal contact with Maharaji as you suggest in this and your other post may help the resolve some situations. In my view, though, the expressions of verbal abuse and outright hatred that appear on this site wouldn't encourage me to post here or even email ex-premies, if I were him.

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:03:15 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Us? Abusive?
Message:
But Mel, he's the Perfect Master, remember? He can absorb all that nasty stuff and still exude peace, love and understanding, right?

OK I'm being sarcastic, but really, how can one not be?

I know you're in a rather hopeless predicament, trying to defend the indefensible, and I do acknowledge your struggle, but surely you can see the obvious?

You could concede the point and agree that maharaji's lifelong avoidance of the sort of caring, personal attention one could reasonable expect from any NORMAL teacher, let alone one who teaches *perfection*, is inexcusible, but it will not alter the status quo one iota.

The FAQs will continue to be tweaked and fine tuned, the history page will be rewritten, edited and cropped, until the past 30 years is reduced to a couple of non-committal paragraphs: 'He came, He saw (an opportunity), He conned us.'

You know Mel, you are in a position to put this communication issue to the test. Drop M. an email or a letter. Call someone at EV and tell them you have to talk to your teacher. Doesn't have to be about the Jagdeo issue at all. Make it anything which personally troubles you about him and K. We would all be interested to hear the (lack of) response, but probably won't hold our breath in the meantime.

I feel like you are hanging on to m. despite every fiber in you telling you it's a scam. Have you been able to identify why that is, why you deny your own intuition?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:21:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, are you justifying stonewalling Susan?
Message:
Mel,

Susan alleges that Maharaji knew all about Jagdeo because, she was told, Prouty told him. Maharaji got a letter from her which he handed off to some lackey who wrote back and decidedly avoided dealing with that allegation. Are you suggesting it had something to do with the tone of Susan's letter?

Mel, you know this stinks. Really, what you're doing is shameless and you know it.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:54:26 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mel, are you justifying stonewalling Susan?
Message:
No, not at all...

Susan alleges that Maharaji knew all about Jagdeo because, she was told, Prouty told him. Maharaji got a letter from her which he handed off to some lackey who wrote back and decidedly avoided dealing with that allegation. Are you suggesting it had something to do with the tone of Susan's letter?

No, I think the tone of Susans letter was admirable. It addressed the issue and was honest and was in no way rude or disrespectful.

Jim, I think youre starting to engage in your typical 'twist the issue' game here. I remarked to Rob that I thought that Maharaji may not want to directly communicate to ex's because of the 'tone' of some of their posts. This remark has absolutely nothing to do with Susan's letter and I'm not overly happy that you have introduced an implication that it has.

Personally, I agree that it may have been more appropriate that Maharaji should have responded himself rather than passing it on to some 'lackey' (as you say).

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:03:00 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Sorry, that's not fair. That's YOUR excuse
Message:
Come on, Mel, you're the one that raised the possible excuse that Maharaji might have for not dialoguing with exes being that we're too rude. I never said that, you did. And, yes, all along the issue was, in context, why he's never engaged Susan, you, more or even Reverend Shp in open communication about this. That was a bullshit balloon you floated, Mel. Don't blame me for clarifying the matter. It was abundantly fair for me, in the circumstances, to ask if you were saying that with reference to Susan and, if the answer was 'no, which you say it is, to ask you why even talk about that then.

Nice try, anyway.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:38:09 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Another critical point
Message:
I am very disturbed by the statement in EV's response to Susan that:

I understand that Michael Dettmers has passed on to you the fact that Jagdeo is no longer associated in any capacity with Elan Vital organizations worldwide. He has not performed any duties as an instructor in the United States since the 1980's. He is now retired and living in a village in India.

Now what is to be gleaned from this piece of total obfuscation? Importantly, Jean Michel has told us that Jagdeo was sitting amongst the mahatmas at an EV India event just a few years ago. A cynical person, perhaps a lawyer, might infer that Jagdeo has not worked in the US since the '80's because EV knew of his misbehavior (as a result of Susan's report) and they made certain he was not in the US so that he couldn't be arrested or served with civil process.

Also, even if Jagdeo did not work in the US for EV, wherever he worked, he likely had access to young girls. It was precisely this situation Susan tried to avert years ago when she reported the molestations to Randy, Judy and DLM. Saying that Jagdeo hasn't worked in the US since the '80's is a meaningless statement with respect to this situation.

EV's letter to Susan is an outrage. I am delighted however that the Board of Directors has seen fit to put these sentences to paper as I suspect these words will come back to haunt them in the not so distant future.

Susan is the moral center of our discussion. I am awed by her courage.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 08:29:10 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: And furthermore! Is EV hiding a criminal?
Message:
they say that he's now 'retired' in some Indian village in Bihar.

Bihar is one of the places in India where lots of the premies live (or used to anyway). DLM once had a big ashram in Jumhri Tilaya, where the Rawats used to come, have programs and give darshan. I've attended one of them in the 70s.

Now tell me: Jagdeo is 'retired' very likely in some premie house or ashram there, sustained by premies money. Who says he doesn't have access to children anymore? What are the precautions EV's taken there?

Did EV give the address to authorities?

THEY KNOW WHERE HE IS, AND UNLESS THEY GIVE HIS ADDRESS, THEY'RE HIDING A CRIMINAL.

That's all.

Is EV hiding a criminal?

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 23:33:53 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Not quite true, J-M...
Message:
Ev may be guilty of sheltering someone who has behaved criminally, but they are not harbouring a criminal, since - in the UK, at least - you are not technically a 'criminal' until you've been convicted of a crime.

Time could still change all that, I guess, and here's hoping...

(But you could probably be charged with 'aiding and abetting' if you had knowledge of the offences but knowingly helped the offender, even indirectly.)

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:08:54 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Legal question
Message:
Hi Marianne

Does the US have an extradition treaty with India, and if so, does the crime of sexual abuse of a minor fall within its mandate?


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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:20:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: No, let's be reasonable about this
Message:
Rob,

I think it's highly unlikely that anyone would ever be extradited for historic sexual interference or touching allegations.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 23:13:46 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Then why keep him in India?
Message:
Jim I've no desire to take up law as a profession, although I think I could have made a reasonable one, but my question really was in response to a remark made about keeping Jagdeo in India to avoid facing the consequences over here. Do you think he really has been put out to grass because of age & ill-health, or could it be for the reasons we claim? One can only wonder how many children have been put at risk over there both before he came to the west and more recently.
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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:12:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Where else? Victoria? Manhattan? Malibu? (nt)
Message:
ggggg
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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:11:40 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Rob
Subject: Legal question?
Message:
Rob: I decline to answer this question in this venue.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:25:21 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Understood, thanks. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 02:16:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: And one question further, Mel
Message:
What should happen to the guru who knew Jagdeo was molesting kids as he circulated amongst his, the guru's, devotees as an ambassador of 'divine love and light'?

And if you say there's no proof there was such a guru (and thus Susan's a liar), I'd ask you what kind of proof you'd require. What if, hypothetically, Randy Proudy or Judy Osborne came forward and admitted that they did indeed have the conversations with Susan she alleges. What would that mean to you and what should happen then, Mel?

And if, hypothetically, Maharaji was sued as Jagdeo's principal for this sexual abuse, what should happen then? Should 'justice' prevail and if so how? Share your thoughts with us, Mel, and help us give up some ugly stereotypes we might have for premies.

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 12:53:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't forget...
Message:
...that Jagdeos serious crimes were also reported to Mahatma Gurucharanand, by the father of another victim, completely unrelated to Randy and Judy.

Anth

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:10:43 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Don't forget...
Message:
Really? I wasn't aware of that!
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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:28:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Okay, Mel, so now you know -- what?
Message:
Your current opinion, Mr. Whoever-you-are?
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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:10:51 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Answer to one question further, Mel
Message:
The answer is simple, Jim

Maharaji is subject to the law as is any other human being. If he's found guilty in a court of law for whatever charge, he would have to suffer the penalties under the law, wouldn't he?

How would I feel about it, very disappointed and hurt, as would anyone who holds someone in high esteem and finds that this person is found guilty of some crime. Would it undermine my practice of Knowledge? Well, I'd hope not!

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 03:21:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Hm, that's an interesting answer
Message:
A couple of things come to mind. First, you say you'd be 'very disappointed and hurt'. Fine. But you also say you think it wouldn't undermine your practice of Knowledge. Honestly, Mel, how could that be? If you knew that Maharaji had allowed Jagdeo to circulate as he did in the face of reports like Susan's, and were thus, as you say, 'very disappointed and hurt', wouldn't you likely wonder just what this guy was about, after all? And wouldn't you likely then want to get some real answers from Maharaji, answers to questions like 'How could you?', before you'd have anything more to do with him?

Okay, there's that.

The second thing I wonder about is why you don't investigate this matter for yourself. You're obviously interested. So why don't you do your own due diligence for a change? Like, why don't you yourself write EV or Maharaji and seek some clarification? You read what EV told Susan. Jagdeo's no longer around and isn't it too bad that he was a bad boy when he was. Is that enough of an answer for you, Mel? Pesonally, I find it lacking. How about you?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:07:04 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here is another interesting answer
Message:
Jim

...wouldn't you likely wonder just what this guy was about, after all?

Of course I would.

And wouldn't you likely then want to get some real answers from Maharaji, answers to questions like 'How could you?', before you'd have anything more to do with him?

I would consider such questions quite natural, but in my view the practice and experience of Knowledge really has nothing to do with an issue of poor judgement in the way Maharaji may have dealt with this situation.

As to you next question...

is why you don't investigate this matter for yourself. You're obviously interested. So why don't you do your own due diligence for a change? Like, why don't you yourself write EV or Maharaji and seek some clarification?

There's no need to investigate the matter myself. I read Susan's post with the responses from EV and have no reason to doubt her honesty. I'm sure that both Maharaji and EV would be painfully aware of how their credibility could be effected by the way that they deal with this issue. It doesn't require me to point out the obvious.

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 14:22:01 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: 'There's no need to investigate the matter myself'
Message:
Mel, you say: 'There's no need to investigate the matter myself.'

So you're happy for your inaction to condone the continuing attempts by EV and the Maha to cover up this whole issue and deny that anything should be done about Jagdeo???

If the man is to face criminal charges, and is at present living (quite possibly on some of the proceeds from donations made to EV) at liberty at an address KNOWN to EV - then their complicity also looks pretty damning.

If allegations have been made, EV can't just sit there and say, 'oh, it was a long time ago'. No matter how long ago, a crime is a crime. And a cover-up is a cover-up.

They themselves should report this to the authorities without delay, to avoid any charges of attempting to harbour a man suspected of criminal abuse.

IMO, the longer EV and the Maha try to hedge this, the more they are in seriously deep doodoo.

Perhaps you should be telling EV this yourself, Mel?

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:12:03 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: 'There's no need to investigate the matter myself'
Message:
CQ

There's no need to investigate the matter myself because:

1. There doesn't appear a strong denial from EV that the events Susan has referred to have taken place, and they and the appropriate authorities are responsible for any investigations, not me.

2. As for the 'why don't I write a letter to EV' chastisement from you and others. Why do I need to? EV probably reads the posts here (including mine), so they would be very well aware of my views on the issue, and would probably also be aware that there are probably plenty of other premies(apart from ex's) who would share them. They've got the credibility issue on this, not me!

Mel

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:27:08 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, let's get this straight now, once and for all
Message:
Are you willing to accept that Susan did hear from Osborne that Maharaji already knew about Jagdeo and that that only confirmed what Susan already believed which was that Prouty had earlier told Maharaji just like he said he did?

If you accept that, Mel, then the puck's in the net (as they say up here).

The next question must be what do you say about your master now that you presume that he kept Jagdeo in circulation without warning anyone of anything?

Time to get off the fence, Mel. The only way back for you is if you retract this statement:

There's no need to investigate the matter myself because:

1. There doesn't appear a strong denial from EV that the events Susan has referred to have taken place ....

But if you retract it, you're gonna look less than forthright, won't you?

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 10:34:44 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: let's get this straight now, once and for all...OK
Message:
Hi Jim

'Are you willing to accept that Susan did hear from Osborne that Maharaji already knew about Jagdeo and that that only confirmed what Susan already believed which was that Prouty had earlier told Maharaji just like he said he did?'

I have no reason no doubt that Susan did hear that Maharaji had been told of the incident at that time. I do have reason to doubt that Maharaji may have been told, because I believe that the instructors seem unreliable, and I’ve stated why in my post to Susan. So I entirely disagree with your superficial notion … 'If you accept that, Mel, then the puck's in the net (as they say up here)'.

'The only way back for you is if you retract this statement:
There's no need to investigate the matter myself because:
1. There doesn't appear a strong denial from EV that the events Susan has referred to have taken place ....

But if you retract it, you're gonna look less than forthright, won't you?'

Again your wrong Jim, because I have no reason to retract it

As you would be well aware, EV had made earlier commitments to investigate the allegations and assist any appropriate authorities with their investigations as well. This site has postings in it’s archives attesting this fact , (with the ex-premie “gloating” posts appended, of course). You can’t have forgotten this surely, Jim? This obviously indicates that EV does not strongly deny the event took place, only that they were (apparently) unaware of it and that they are willing to follow up on the matter. How conscientious they have been in this follow up is, of course, a matter of debate. So your assertion that I’m gonna look “less than forthright “ if I retract my statement is weightless..

Jim, it must be quite apparent how I view this particular matter, so I think it poor form to try and make your ex-premie political points by rote (although I suspect that you may be incapable of making them any other way!)

I don't suppose that you will agree that this straightens the matter 'once and for all', oh well......

Mel

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 14:49:30 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel just this one point...
Message:
what explanation do you have for Judy saying 'he already had heard about this and was glad it was not a new incident' when I did NOT TELL HER that I had already reported it through Randy?
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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:00:43 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Mel just this one point...
Message:
Susan

None, thanks for telling me this.

Mel

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 16:17:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: No, no, no, Mel -- that won't do at all!
Message:
Come on, Mel. What's that mean to you? You say you hvae no explanation .... well, how about the obvious? That being that Maharaji knew and thus ALL the bad things you've said about him 'conditionally' are ripe for the pickin'?

Do you want to know or would you prefer not?

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 17:30:46 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, new possiblities....
Message:
... Jim, but as I said earlier, there is still reasonable doubt about the instructors' honesty on the issue, which makes it impossible to draw any accurate conclusions, just speculative ones!

Mel

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Date: Mon, Sep 18, 2000 at 18:57:17 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: And in the meantime ...
Message:
EV is washing its hands of any former involvement with Jagdeo?

And a suspected child-abuser is still at large, with NO investigations being mounted???

This could well be to EV's future detriment, believe you me.

The longer they resist reporting Jagdeo to the authorities, the more harm it will do them.

And, naturally, the Maha

(Teflon he ain't!)

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:25:51 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: 'There's no need to investigate the matter myself'
Message:
I was curious to read your response to my post to you titled 'The Water Analogy' that is just a short scroll below this one. Maybe you didn't see it...or are you dodging?
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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:23:51 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Sticking my beak in again
Message:
This grabbed my attention Mel,

I would consider such questions quite natural, but in my view the practice and experience of Knowledge really has nothing to do with an issue of poor judgement in the way Maharaji may have dealt with this situation.

That sounds a lot like Mike 'The Mushroom' Fronke telling me that he didn't know or care who maharaji was, or whether he ever lied, Knowledge was the dog's bollocks and THAT's what he enjoyed. But then later, when I told him I still experienced stuff in meditation too, he'd try to force the argument that the Knowledge doesn't work without the Master!

The point is, and why it relates to your statement above, is that the most fundamental premise of practising knowledge is having Trust in the Master. Yet here you are, admitting he showed extremely poor judgement in a situation which may have psychologically scarred several of his devotees' children for life and could ultimately land him in jail. Doesn't that make you question your own judgement about your choice of him as a teacher?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 10:43:46 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Sticking my beak in again
Message:
Rob

Doesn't that make you question your own judgement about your choice of him as a teacher?

Yes, Rob, it would if I felt that Knowledge didn't work for me.

If you'll excuse a 'thirst' analogy...

If I'm thirsty and someone offered me water with the assertion that if I drank my thirst would be quenched, and I drank and found this to be true, would later exposure of that person on 'character' issues undermine the fact that water does ,in fact, quench thirst?

In my view, the two issues are totally unrelated. On one hand we have the simple contention of thirst and the quenching of it, and on the other an issue about personality, character and 'behavioural' issues.

The trust isn't so much in Maharaji as a personality, or as some sort of beacon of virtue, the trust is in the quality of the experience of Knowledge, that he has happened to bring to my attention. True, I might have some expectation of Maharaji's moral integrity and I might even question the validity of my experience of Knowledge if I became convinced that it was lacking, but even then, when it boils down to it, the quality and experience of knowledge may not necessarilly be dependant on my views of Maharaji.

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 23:32:15 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: How about a Used Car Salesman analogy?
Message:
Your analogy:

If I'm thirsty and someone offered me water with the assertion that if I drank my thirst would be quenched, and I drank and found this to be true, would later exposure of that person on 'character' issues undermine the fact that water does ,in fact, quench thirst?

Suppose you acquired a used car from a person, and when you drove the car it ran well, had good mileage and fulfilled your need to be mobile, but later you found out that the car salesman was a crook, had stolen the car, was an inveterate liar and conman and had in his employ an alleged child molester? Would this 'exposure' enable you to still feel good about your car and would you continue you to recommend that person to your friends?

That's the trouble with analogies Mel, its so easy to scale them down in terms of their severity and consequence in one's life. Perhaps that's why so many cult leaders use them!

In my view the two issues are totally related, simply because we are not talking about any run-of-the-mill yoga teacher here, at least so far as you premies are concerned. We are discussing someone whom you have dedicated your life to for at least 20 years, donate money to on a regular basis, hang on to every word emanating from his mouth as being the wisest, most profound utterances you have ever heard and who's feet you would gladly kiss if only he would grace you with the opportunity.

In that light, Mel, I think the possibility that he may have knowingly sequestered an habitual child molester in his employ deserves more than the cursory dismissal you gave it. What do you think?

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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 03:31:08 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: How about a Used Car Salesman analogy?
Message:
Rob

You simply substituted my analogy for one of your own, and although I understand the point that you are making, I disagree.

The way I read it was that, basically, Jim wanted to know if, in the light of the allegations, I questioned the integrity of Maharaji in relation to Knowledge. My answer was, basically 'No, I didn't think so' and gave my reasons.

I haven't given 'cursory dismissal' at all to the allegation (as you put it) that '....he may have knowingly sequestered an habitual child molester in his employ...'

Indeed, if you have bothered to read my other posts in this thread, you will see that I have remarked that Maharaji (like anyone else) is not above the law, and that would have to suffer the consequences of any conviction if found guilty of criminal behaviour (like anybody else). I don't read this as 'cursory dismissal' of the issue on my part, and if you took a momentory pause from your political predisposition to 'bag premies no matter what', you wouldn't read it that way either.

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 19:10:25 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: The Water Analogy
Message:
I am glad that you picked the 'water/thirst' analogy. I just used it in another post on a previous thread.

With all due respect, may I make an observation and ask you a question. If you are thirsty and someone gives you a drink of water and it quenches your thirst does that mean that you are forever indebted to that person for that drink of water and more importantly does that mean that this individual now has SOLE RIGHTS TO WATER WHEREEVER IT MAY BE? Just because you were ignorant of where to find water and they showed you where to look, I don't see why that makes the water of the world THEIR PRIVATE DOMAIN! No matter what they and their cronies tell you in a blissful way....they had no right to it in the 1st place. It isn't theirs to give or take! Just like water or air so is the experience derived in your head from meditation. After all it is YOU who do the meditation....not M!

Those four techniques were around for thousands of years (remember M said that they are the same one's shown by Jesus and other Perfect Masters through-out history) and they were/are being taught by teachers all over the globe and available in countless books, and always have been.

So what makes them the property of M? Because he and his devotees say so? Not good enough. Just because in your/our ignorance we didn't know where to look at the time for this thirst quenching 'water' doesn't mean that you/we might not have been shown it by someone else or found it on our own at a latter date!

And if this 'water' giver turns out to be somewhat unscrupulous and have criminal friends why are we obligated to ignore that and say 'Oh I can't be bothered with those considerations, after all I AM NOT THIRSTY ANYMORE so to hell with anyone else. Isn't that a might selfish and irresponsible?

Of course if one believes that said water giver has magic powers and is exempt from the ethical and moral values that are used in regard everyone else...well then you have MADNESS!!!

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:26:21 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Sticking my beak in again
Message:
Asking a true devotee to make this kind of concession would mean questioning the basis for unquestioning devotion. I don't think that Mel has reached that place yet. Maybe he never will.

Marianne

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 11:18:14 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Mel's unquestioning devotion...
Message:
Marianne

What do you define as 'unquestioning devotion'?

Believe it or not, I don't generally measure my live in terms of 'devotion' (unquestioning or otherwise), especially if you mean any belief in any infallibity or 'perfection' of Maharaji's personality in any 'divine' sense.

Maharaji is human. This means that he obviously can make mistakes, exhibit poor judgement or even fart at inappropriate times. I may even disagree with what he does and the way he does it.

The issue for me isn't obedience or disobedience to some vague perception of who Maharaji may or may not be, it's based on a simple experience of fulfillment that I have recognised for myself and which he had taken the trouble to inform me about. Apart from that, my life is my own, I come and go as I please, I do what I want to do when I want to do it, in short, I am free, (well, as free as anybody else here is, anyway). Maharaji may have dictated the terms of peoples lives in the ashram 20 odd years ago, but he certainly doesn't these days.

The idea of 'unquestioning devotion' implies a lack of individual thought processes and problem solving skills and a dependance on the direction of a dictator. My work colleagues and clients would be quite surprised if they met you and you described me to them in this light. Certainly my 'non' premie family (wife and children) don't see me in that mould either.

Marianne, please don't try to put me into some sort of 'premie' pidgeon hole. You don't know me personally, what I do, what I cherish. You only see the part of me that relates to my views on Maharaji and Knowledge, and that isn't the full summation of who I am as a human being. It would be extremely arrogant of you to dismiss this other component of my personality, and I don't generally perceive you as an arrogant person

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 23:51:38 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Unquestioning devotion defined
Message:
How about:

Hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil?

If you say that maharaji and his ragtag band of participating clowns do not figure largely in your life, then of course I'll take your word for it. Perhaps in another thread we can get OT and chat about some of the things which DO take center stage with you?

Anyhow, I see that you are upset by what you see as stereotyping, but forgive us Mel, its hard not to drop you in that pile when you exhibit all the defining characteristics of that genre.

Unquestioning Devotion, for me, describes a person who will make an effort to defend his Master no matter what, who will continue to count himself one of the faithful even in the face of the most convincing arguments and who has perfected the knack of excusing the *Giver* because of his *Gift*.

That was exactly the tack taken by Mike 'The Mushroom' Fronke, to name but one, when pressed to answer criticisms of his Master. He would fall back into reminiscences of his meditation experiences and kind of drift off into some psylocybic reverie, tongue lolling out his mouth and eyes glazed over......meanwhile we're going 'MIKE, MIKE' or rather 'SHROOM, SHROOM, wake up, you're dreaming, answer the bloody question will ya!!'

Perhaps you're not like him (BTW what do you think of his star performance here?) but to the untrained eye you sure do bear a huge resemblance to his ilk.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 12:15:29 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel's unquestioning devotion...
Message:
Actually, Mel,

Rawat gets in the way of the distribution of the four techniques. They could be promulgated far more wisely and sensitively if he just fucked off, and stopped telling lies about his relationship to those methods.

Way wrote to Mike Fronke on the issue of m's relationship to K and Mr Fronke's stubborn delusion concerning the nature of that relationship.

A personal observation, if I may. It does seem to me that for someone who claims relative distance from the cult's heart of darkness, you are having considerable difficulty in getting the matter into focus.

I believe you may find this letter from downunder helpful in that respect.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 05:31:19 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Exactly my point
Message:
But hopefuly it will provide food for thought for him and others?

I have to go now,

'night Marianne, have a nice weekend.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:15:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Mel, you're completely contradicting yourself!
Message:
On the one had, you say this to me:

There's no need to investigate the matter myself. I read Susan's post with the responses from EV and have no reason to doubt her honesty. I'm sure that both Maharaji and EV would be painfully aware of how their credibility could be effected by the way that they deal with this issue. It doesn't require me to point out the obvious.

But that follows saying this to Susan moments before:

In your situation I would be unimpressed by Maharaji too, and even NOT in your situation, if Maharaji did indeed know of it as early as you indicate and didn't act, I wouldn't be particularly impressed. I have doubts in this area, though, because (as you stated in your recent post) Maharaji appears to have taken quite decisive action when dealing with the sexual misdemeanours of instructors on other occassions. It's a mystery as to why your case should have been treated any differently. It wouldn't be too unreasonable to conclude that he may not have been told.

If this is the case, then the weak link seems to be the instructors themselves. Did they lie to you when they told you that the issue had been reported? Obviously, you know them, so are better able to judge that than I would. If they did not lie then, they certainly appear to be lying now when if they say they cannot recollect the issue or reporting it to Maharaji.

Even an idiot would be able to see that you're talking out of both sides of your mouth here, Mel. What gives?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:37:02 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Am I contracticting myself?
Message:
Jim

I'm sorry if this seems to be the case, so let me clarify my position.

1. I'm not sure that there is enough evidence to suggest that Maharaji was directly informed of the issue as early as Susan thinks.

2. IF he was aware of situation as early as this, then certainly there may be an issue as to how it's been dealt with.

Do you see this as inconsistency?

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 04:58:27 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Of course you are!
Message:
Mel,

You're like someone skittish watching a horror movie. You look, you hide, you look, you hide. Basically, you peek through your fingers. How fast? Depends how fast you type, I guess.

If you slowed down a bit and just looked at what you've been saying here in this thread you wouldn't need me to point out the contradiction. You're smarter than that.

But you're so busy juggling. You know, as an aside, I had a pathologist on the stand the other day. She was most definitely trying to change her evidence to fit the changing prosecution theory. I cross-examined her for three days! At one point, when she had absolutely no defence to my suggestion that she'd 'doctored' her evidence, she tried to weazle out by saying that he was so difficult to be 'juggling' the various matters we'd been talking about. So I threw at her the simple maxim that one doesn't have to remember anything -- or 'juggle anything -- when one's telling the truth. It's simple.

Now some premies approach that fact of life the way Shroom did. Swim at such a superficial level that you find simplicity that way. Not that you're adhering to the truth, more like you're avoiding the sticky parts. You're often like that too. But now, when your'e actually discussing this (which, of course, I commend) you want simplicity where you'll just never find it. That is, you can't SIMPLY hold on to all that you want to here. Something has to give.

Either that or you have to go back to swimming on the surface.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:54:56 (GMT)
From: An impartial observer
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: What a year.
Message:
If my memory serves me well, you are pwk.

Did not the above allegations concern you?

Does not Maharaji's silence on this subject woory you about his character and motives?

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 10:22:41 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: What a year.
Message:
Hi Mel,

What me, empty rhetoric?

I've not been in touch with either of the Police stations who have statements for a couple of months, so I don't know how their investigations are proceeding, or who they still want to talk to.

I'm still in communication with one of the investigating officers, and will drop him a line in case he wants to interview anyone in the UK over the next week or so.

Hope all is well with you and yours Mel. How's life in the cult nowadays?

take care
anth the coppers nark

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 01:58:21 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Thanks, Anth....
Message:
.... please keep us informed. Life's fine

Mel

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:17:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Why wouldn't Cainer's OLD paper want the story?
Message:
What I don't get is why the Mail wouldn't run the story that the Express was now too frightened to do. I'm sure I'm not the first one asking the question, but why?
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Date: Sun, Sep 17, 2000 at 12:24:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why wouldn't Cainer's OLD paper want the story?
Message:
Hi Jim,

The Mail were interested in the story, and I had some communication with them, the Telegraph, a broadsheet, also picked up on it and talked to us, but so far nothings appeared in print.

Anth the hack

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:27:03 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's a conspiracy...
Message:
See, Goober's lawyers are hooked up to the good old boy network, as is the monopoly media that feeds the masses in the UKUSA.

All it took to kill it was 'wink, wink, whisper, whisper, nod, nod,' and the story goes into the shredder.

Follow the money trail...

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:11:45 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: That's ridiculous
Message:
The ridiculous thing isn't the possibility that you're right. That's the appeal of conspiracy theories. Beside their sex appeal, they're at least plausible. But what's ridiculious is favoring that particular possibility, just because you find it so alluring, over much stronger possibilities.

It's ever more likely, in this case, that the story was killed simply because of Cainer. You don't need no 'good old boy' nothing to suppress that story. You just want to squeeze that possibility into line ahead of its stronger competitors. Sorry, that's intellectual cheating.

(Please, no 'Jim-is-a-piece-of-shit' campaign, this time. Me poor mum's been reading....)

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:21:08 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So...you wanna fight, huh?
Message:
OK, buddy, put em up !!!

Seriously, I gotta go to (ulp) (gulp) (Hiss, boo)

work
;(
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 23:01:18 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: gerry
Subject: Say it ain't so, gErRy!
Message:
gErRy,

Say it ain't so! Say you don't have a job. WORK!?

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 18:31:23 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: No, no, no, a thousand times no!
Message:
I'm working for seventeen days, commisioned sales at the Puyallup Fair selling these
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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 19:19:15 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: No, no, no, a thousand times no!
Message:
Hey you are in my neck of the woods! Get me in to see that talented nutball Brian Wilson!
(Just kidding, I gotta work.)
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:02:56 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: It's a conspiracy...and did you know?
Message:
The country of Angola alone could supply the entire USA with oil, at the present level of consumption, for the next 50 years!
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:14:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: And for the record...
Message:
A while back, Carol (bless her heart) out and out accused this website and Jim in particular for turning me from a mild mannered semi new age kind of guy into some sort of raging, rabid anti-gooberoid monster !!! Well, all I can say to that is...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...

IT'S TRUE !!!

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 06:31:01 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: And for the record...Bless your heart, too nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:46:38 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Also for the record...
Message:
Gerry: A while back, Carol (bless her heart) out and out accused this website and Jim in particular for turning me from a mild mannered semi new age kind of guy into some sort of raging, rabid anti-gooberoid monster !!! Well, all I can say to that is...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...
...

IT'S TRUE !!!


JohnT: Thank you for that gerry, your post has enabled me to face up to the same truth. But I've found it in my heart to forgive Jim!

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:57:32 (GMT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: It's a conspiracy...yes gErRy
Message:
this type of corruption saturates British institutions.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 02:30:06 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: latest wisdom from m on meditation...
Message:
A friend of mine told me about m's latest wisdom on how to meditate.
It was an answer to a question on a recent video.
The questioner asked how they could really do one hour of meditation a day.Their life was difficult, with many responsibilities, and they found it extremely hard to stay inspired and do one hour/day.
Did m have any advice that might help them?

M's response:Why not do two hours a day?
If you can do two hours/day, then one will seem easy.

Unbelievably, my friend said that most of the people in the room were laughing it up big time, thinking that m was so clever...

It also reminds me of a video I saw a few years ago from Australia...
This very sincere young woman gets up and asks m if HE meditates at least one hour a day.
M replied that sometimes he falls asleep in the shower, because he is so tired from travelling.
He never answered the question, and the video was never shown again...

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 17:01:25 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: Insite from the Almighty
Message:
I flew from the US to Brighton (7 years ago?) for a premie shendig. During an aspirant selection process a lady told Maha that she already saw light.
His complete response was... 'oh'

In a public program several years earlier someone from the audience yelled, 'I don't beleive you'.
Maha was cleary shaken. His answer was a not very believable 'I don't care'.
It's too bad there was only one thinking human being among all the gouls.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:55:12 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Insite from the Almighty
Message:
Well, I gotta admit, I think M's answer of 'I don't care' was actually pretty good. I like that answer. But if you think about it ...
it probably is one of the most HONEST answers he has ever given!
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:48:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Where have I seen that kind of humour before?
Message:
That super-haughty disdain, where have I seen it before? Isn't that the way the aristocratic villians act in movies? The 'let-them-eat-cake' attitude?

God, would I give anything to see this guy brought down a few pegs.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 14:00:03 (GMT)
From: Frank
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: latest wisdom from me
Message:
GIVE BACK AMAROO TO THE KANGAROOS !!!
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 08:39:10 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: latest wisdom from m on meditation...
Message:
What a buffoon that man is. The trouble is, he's dangerous.

I remember in the ashram, I was having a bad time so I went to see Mahatma Ashokanand. He shouted at me and told me I was irresponsible. Then he told me to get up at 4 o'clock in the morning and do three hours meditation every day.

I told Glen Whittaker what the great soul had told me and Glen said that if Ashoke said I must do it - I would be able to do it. Of course, I never did do it beyond the first day.

DLM/Elan Vital is about the worst meditation school in history. Their leader and figurehead has probably never done more than five minutes meditation in his life. How can people ever give him any credence?

Bill Burke mentioned a woman in South Africa who was confused when Maharaji changed the constantly meditate rule to just do 15 minutes on the 3rd technique per day. This woman was a long time premie.

She asked Maharaji why it had all changed and he just said to her, 'Maybe this isn't for you'.

Ironically, that was probably good advice.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 07:34:56 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: The guy doesn't have a
Message:
kind bone in his body. When one thinks about it, M requires people with Knowledge to accept him as the Master/Teacher there by taking some responsibility upon himself to respond to the NEEDS of the people he is mentoring/guiding. The people with knowledge are suppose to give and M is supposed to give back. I have never heard of or seen an instance or situation where M gave anything freely or when desperately needed. Time after time in the archives of this forum there are narrations of people truly in need of just a kind word from that fat fuck and what did they get----silence! He's a liar, cheat but above all he's evil!
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 12:08:43 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Maharaji giving freely...
Message:
Hi Tonette,

Maharaji has given me several things freely- three second hand shirts, two second hand sweaters (one extremely ill fitting, but I believe it was knitted with love), two ties, a belt, and one matching hankerchief.

I think there's a warehouse in Miami, full of his cast-offs, with staff on hand to distribute them to the needy PAMs. They're considered non-taxable perks of the job.

Anth the Charity Case

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 12:46:37 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Slightly Used Designer Dress?
Message:
Gee, I know it would probably be horribly out of style but do you think I could score one of Durga Ji's old dresses?
Let's see, I could go to the warehouse, put on one of those glazed, blissed out expressions on my face and give some of that new age lingo. 'I just got back from meeting with M's lawyers and I feel totally synchronized. I got word from the Master that I could come down here and cop a dress because I've been such a good participator!' Do you think that would fly?
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 05:34:10 (GMT)
From: King Munmut
Email: None
To: all
Subject: 'DO' as I say. 'NOT' as I do :)
Message:
I wonder if Jesus really droped that line.
It was certainly a usefull one for the religious big knobs
of the day to slip into the Bible if he really didn't.
YES!!!!! a very useful one indeed.

Has the Calcutta Creep ever answered a straight question in his life? There wouldn't be many of them if he did.
Anyhow, he'd be outta business if he did answer too many.

As long as people think your GOD, you can say or do anything you like with, or to them.

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