Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Sep 22, 2000 at 10:21:22 (GMT)
From: Sep 11, 2000 To: Sep 21, 2000 Page: 4 Of: 5


Yves -:- What would it take to let Rawat off the hook? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:24:06 (GMT)
__ ExTex -:- What would it take to let Rawat off the hook? -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 04:39:38 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, EXTex, all of that -- plus one more thing -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 16:27:17 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Ah, yes, the Mussollini question -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:43:54 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- I got it. 'Off the hook' funny. -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 16:09:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- I know exactly how much he owes me -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 16:16:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Don't forget punitive damages (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 00:02:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- quote: eight years of your life, from 19 to 27? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:37:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Yves -:- Let me negociate 500 000CDN for you. -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:37:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Yves -:- Or would 10 times that seem more suitable to you? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:41:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Yolycow -:- Your check is ready. Only one condition... -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 13:22:52 (GMT)
__ __ Yves -:- I sent this to CBC French radio network -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:59:20 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- But he will pass the opportunity until too late -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:39:24 (GMT)
__ __ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- But he will pass the opportunity until too late -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:08:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Yves' away -:- Turn on the limelight and speak-up. -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:35:36 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Starting a new 'best of the forum' - help needed -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:50:25 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Very nice indeed! nt -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 01:52:32 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Starting a new 'best of the forum': Susan's letter -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 21:28:04 (GMT)
__ suchabanana -:- Please include Susan's letter - posted 9/11 -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 21:16:25 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Of course, but it's not yet!!!!! -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 08:30:28 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Way to go, JM! (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:17:46 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- I'd like to see links too -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:06:48 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- I'd love to see Durga's letter there -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- I need help with my Words of Love page -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:43:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Wouldn't be better if -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:05:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What do you mean ? -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 08:54:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- That is not what I meant -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 11:18:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Now you're both talking at cross purposes -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 12:47:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Salam -:- Sorry, I am only a confused pwkie..nt -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 15:47:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ suchabanana -:- I need help with my Words of Love page -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 22:41:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ExTex -:- You made a very important point -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 04:21:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda's friend -:- If you are going to quote him, please do so in -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 17:43:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Hey I know that smell!!!!!!! PU -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:53:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Heard from Linda Gross yet Mike? -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 03:36:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael -:- Just by observing his behavior here, -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 23:37:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I like puzzles but this was too easy -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 20:07:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Yves' gone -:- So miss Piggy's back? That was fast. -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:46:43 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- John Edwards -- Crossing Over -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:10:09 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- John Edwards -- Crossing Over -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:06:29 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- John Edwards -- Crossing Over -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:19:55 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- He's another fraud -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:00:08 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- He's another fraud -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:21:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- with an accomplice or two? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:43:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- with an accomplice or two? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 23:02:54 (GMT)
__ __ Humpty Dumpty -:- Hey -watch that fat people stuff-not pc. nt -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:59:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tim Matheson -:- Why Maharaji APPEARS to be a FAT SLOB -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:53:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, don't you know, fat is beautiful! (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:23:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Didn't mean to offend -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 12:42:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- John Edward -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:11:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No one's debunked van Praagh? Here ...... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:51:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- No one's debunked van Praagh? Here ...... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:51:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Honest to God, you won't believe this... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:28:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Honest to God, you won't believe this... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:35:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Honest to God, you won't believe this... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:54:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Honest to God, you won't believe this... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:00:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Honest to God, you won't believe this... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:40:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Honest to God, you won't believe this... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:23:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Great article - recommended reading... Thanks (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:27:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- van Praagh debunked (Part II) -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:52:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Great article, think I'm going to go out..... -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 02:06:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Go, Judge Judy -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:56:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I've never seen her -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 03:00:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ David Sedaris -:- I love Judge Judy SO MUCH... -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 00:04:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Oh, give me a fucking break -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 02:11:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Just curious, but why do people assume that the -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 23:49:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Kinky ghosts -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 00:24:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Just curious, but why do people assume that the -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 05:15:56 (GMT)

Salam -:- Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:20:07 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:25:36 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Hi Salam -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 23:53:19 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- Hi Salam -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 01:58:27 (GMT)
__ Wish -:- Premies forbidden to have 'A bad day' -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 14:11:59 (GMT)
__ Gail -:- I hope god exists so that villans, such as -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:20:25 (GMT)
__ sam -:- Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:47:05 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Who Is The Real YOU -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 21:05:42 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:35:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ sam -:- Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji -:- Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:13:15 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- I wish I knew what to say to make you feel better -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:01:33 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Great post Tonette.... -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 23:57:55 (GMT)
__ __ Salam -:- I wish I knew what to say to make you feel better -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:21:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- Well, -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:36:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Salam -:- Did you get my e-mail -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:58:17 (GMT)
__ __ sam -:- I wish I knew what to say to make you feel better -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:51:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Tonette -:- It came out of the initiators mouths -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:44:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Many people DID split up.... -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 00:04:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Tonette -:- Yes, lots of broken families -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 01:47:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Yes, lots of broken families -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:15:21 (GMT)
__ Yves' gone -:- I vote for retarded brother who voices-over Elvis -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:01:59 (GMT)
__ ExTex -:- Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:26:09 (GMT)
__ __ ExTex -:- PS -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:46:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Salam -:- Do you think -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:24:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ ExTex -:- Do you think -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 04:04:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ExDork -:- Do you think -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 15:13:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ sam -:- Do you think -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:57:41 (GMT)

Larkin -:- So farewell then... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 02:43:16 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Great stuff Larkin -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:25:55 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- You, sir, Larkin ... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:54:10 (GMT)
__ Roger eDrek -:- And I'm back... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:22:00 (GMT)

ET -:- 'Compasionate Conservatism' - US money for cults -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:50:44 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Of all the things to worry about... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:35:27 (GMT)
__ __ Y FKA Bambie -:- Is it I must go easy on hard drugs or is there... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:16:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ ExTex -:- COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVISM? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:32:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Yves FKA Boris -:- Sorry. The subimimiminal part got to me -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 13:15:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Subliminal? but it's only one frame in 25. -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 20:17:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ George Dubya Bush -:- It's not 'Subliminal', it's 'subliminable.' . -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 00:18:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Al Gore -:- You're doin GREAT, George, KEEP IT UP! (NT) -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 00:19:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ George Budya Bush -:- Roger and out (NT) -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:05:37 (GMT)

Yves' siamese brother -:- Wanna see a video of Balbagwan. -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:40:57 (GMT)
__ Yves' siamese sister -:- I send them messages asking about Tribinanand -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:52:04 (GMT)

Shroomananda -:- Since the Forum Administrator has chosen to -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:26:07 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Since the Forum Administrator has chosen to -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:30:01 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- The 'Miss Piggy act' isn't the best way to quit -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:27:37 (GMT)
__ What a -:- ...pompous ass. -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 04:31:35 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- And it is about bloody time you go -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:11:44 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Since the Forum Administrator has chosen to -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 23:43:48 (GMT)
__ Forum Admin -:- Censorship?!!! -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 23:10:44 (GMT)
__ JohnT -:- You should be ashamed -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 21:39:58 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Shroom, I would bet the Forum Administrator... -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 21:38:22 (GMT)
__ Michael -:- Since the Forum Administrator has chosen to -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:53:33 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Phhtwaarrraaoooa,,, -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 23:23:59 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- HURRAY!!!!!!! -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:25:32 (GMT)
__ cq -:- connect with their inner selves? -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:23:31 (GMT)
__ Yves -:- There goes the offended virgin -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:05:29 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- So long, Mr Mature... -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:38:31 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Words of love -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:09:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- Words of love -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:55:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Words of love -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:48:51 (GMT)

Joe -:- My Email to Elan Vital -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:13:13 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- My Email to Elan Vital/great letter -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 03:05:08 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Thanks, and please send an email... -:- Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 00:16:04 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Another GOD quote from Maharaji -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 23:41:54 (GMT)
__ carol -:- I jumped on the hook to be pulled in by this line -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:52:17 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Great letter Joe -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:38:40 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- excellent letter Joe! (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:21:43 (GMT)
__ RobertB -:- Great Letter -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:32:59 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Sure, but correct my typos first.....(nt) -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:19:20 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Wonderful letter, Joe -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 04:51:35 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Great letter Joe... -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 19:27:35 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- Great letter Joe... -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:58:49 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Bravo!! (nt) -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 19:04:01 (GMT)
__ __ Gail -:- Great letter! (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:31:48 (GMT)

RobertB -:- Television Expose -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 17:12:27 (GMT)
__ DeProGram Anand Ji -:- Are You For Real Dateline? Hurray!!!! -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:44:55 (GMT)
__ RobertB -:- Not a hoax -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:18:14 (GMT)
__ __ Tim Matheson -:- Not a hoax -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:23:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ RobertB -:- Are you really Eddie Haskel? - sounds like it (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:36:34 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- Television Expose -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:35:16 (GMT)
__ Yves FKA Boris -:- See the Dateline page -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 21:11:44 (GMT)
__ __ ET -:- But Dateline is NBC not ABC - hoax? (nt) -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 00:03:48 (GMT)
__ Tonette -:- Television Expose -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:51:01 (GMT)
__ nail polishing lurker -:- tape it and send it to Enquirer??? nt -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:15:00 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- Interesting link on meditation -:- Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 17:08:27 (GMT)
__ Suchabanana -:- Interesting link on meditation --yes -:- Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 02:46:42 (GMT)
__ TedTheTurtle -:- Do you know who Muktananda is????? -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:23:03 (GMT)
__ __ gerry -:- He's another pervert child molesting 'saint' fuck -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:34:14 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- That so-called so-hung 'mantra' -:- Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:40:23 (GMT)


Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:24:06 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What would it take to let Rawat off the hook?
Message:
There is no point hoping he'd give it all up and become dirt poor. On the other hand, there is no point for him to hold-on until he ends-up on the frontpage in a striped uniform. Between these two extremes, where would I be satisfied? Here are the conditions under which I'd be willing to let go.

1) I'd like him to make a declaration and admit all this was only one big bad joke and apologize.

2) I'd like him to create a foundation, put all his wealth into it and have it pay him and family a lifetime income.

3) I'd like him to make a contribution
a) use proceeds from the foundation to help some cause.
b) I'd like him to speak-out on sectal mechanism

4) I'd like him to get rid of his obcene toys. (airplane, mansion, etc.) and reduce his standard of living.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 04:39:38 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: What would it take to let Rawat off the hook?
Message:
1- Liquidate all of his and EV's assets and give it to all former members of the ashram's....amounts determined by how long one was living in the ashram. Anything left would be given to a foundation that helped recovering cult victim's.

2-UNDERGO SERIOUS PSYCHOLOGICAL THERAPY BY RECOGNIZED PROFESSIONALS, at his own expense.

3- Make a public apology for his part in misleading so many people, especially so many young people. This could come after some therapy...to insure an element of sincerity.

4-GET A JOB AND DO SOME WORK. Preferabley this would be working with the underprivileged!
I could feel alright with this.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 16:27:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Yes, EXTex, all of that -- plus one more thing
Message:
Maharaji has to actually do a world tour where he leads the crowd in the Sing-a-long Satguru Has Come showings, where everyone pelts the screen with tomatoes and sings funny verses over their favorite songs. They also get to dress up like their favorite characters (mahatmas, Bhole Ji, Shri Hans, etc...).

Afterward -- and this is the hardest part of all -- Maharaji has to have real question and answer sesssions. Videotaped. Satellite broadcast. For free.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:43:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Ah, yes, the Mussollini question
Message:
All I know is that this asshole owes me money.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 16:09:34 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I got it. 'Off the hook' funny.
Message:
How much would you want to let him off the hook?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 16:16:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: I know exactly how much he owes me
Message:
Well, at least I know how to calculate it. I would wnat to sit down with an actuarial accountant, a forensic accountant, and perhaps a couple of investment specialists and analyze the following:

My opportunity costs (eight years of my life, from 19 to 27).

The amount of money I sent directly to Maharaji from my ashram earnings.

The amount he received from me (pro rated, per capita) via money raised by my efforts for DLM or EV.

Reasonable interest OR a pro-rated calculation on his own earnings with that money via his 'successful investing' history.

Damages for pain and suffering.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 00:02:12 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't forget punitive damages (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:37:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: quote: eight years of your life, from 19 to 27?
Message:
How come you haven't yet filed against him?

(only asking)

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:37:08 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Let me negociate 500 000CDN for you.
Message:
What do you say?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:41:34 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Or would 10 times that seem more suitable to you?
Message:
Like 5 000 000$CDN. Yeah. That's more like it. Would you give-him a little Mussolini for that? I mean let him off the hook? There would be plenty left for the foundation given a good price for the airplanes.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 13:22:52 (GMT)
From: Yolycow
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: Your check is ready. Only one condition...
Message:
You have to get Roger to draw a bra first before they mail it.

http://www.oz.net/~drek/dance_dirty.html

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:59:20 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I sent this to CBC French radio network
Message:
Guru Maharaj ji (born December 10 1958) is a self-proclaimed “incarnation of God” that made it big during the 70's and 80's when he claimed a few million followers. In 1973, his organization rented the Houston Astrodome for a three days extravaganza they advertised as 'The most significant event in the history of mankind'. A videotape shot for PBS is available.

A short time after the Houston event, a family quarrel had religious business split between brothers and mother in India and 16 years old guru who established himself in the USA. Maharaji (also known as Guru Maharaj ji and Prem Pal Singh Rawat) is now filthy rich, pilots his own jets and lives in a Malibu mansion. Since the early 70's he managed to dodge media. Former devotees have created web sites to lampoon “former God” as scandals surfaced.

One of them concerns an alleged pedophile high-ranking “priest”. In the attached letter Susan Haupt recently sent her former guru and posted on Internet, she states in 1977, mister Jagdeo abused children. Susan, then 15 years old devotee of the guru, is victim of the abuser. She's also witness of other events and aware Jagdeo is an active pedophile wherever he is sent around the world. She reported it twice but Jagdeo remained in place. Now 38 years old, she recently snoks a letter directly to Guru Maharaji and receives a troubling answer from some cult 'Board-of-directors'. Until recently, cult’s webpage stated they had never heard of the allegations.

Ex-devotees have published in a Boston daily an open letter titled Maharaji Responsibility Campaign (MRC). In response Guru's lawyers have summoned Internet providers to silence webpages where criticism was voiced under the allegation copyrights were violated. In a clear case of legal harrasement, lawyers have since stopped returning calls to clarify which copyright they claimed.

In another occurence that took place in 1974, Tribinanand another such 'priest' also abused women. The story was silenced by cult organization and only after he raped a young woman in Regina, Canada, was he wisked back to India.

Related Internet links

Discussion group where ex-cult members trade information and comments
http://www.ex-premie.org/forum5/main.cgi

Where videotape shot by PBS in 1973 can be ordered on Amazon.com
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00001OX01/o/qid=968250633/sr=8-1/ref=aps_sr_v_1_3/102-5741595-6330552

Information about one of Mararaji’s private jets.
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/lear55.htm

Blueprint of Maharaji’s Malibu mansion
http://ex-premie.org/pages/malibu.htm

Lists of links to some webpages about Maharaji
http://www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Links/homepage.htm
http://ex-premie.org/pages/links.htm

Sites maintained by ex-cult-members with tons of information
http://ex-premie.org/index.htm
http://perso.club-internet.fr/jmkahn/index.html
http://www.oz.net/~drek/
http://www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Truth/truth.htm
http://www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Links/homepage.htm

Site where sexual abuses and cover-up by cult is exposed.
http://www.geocities.com/notmaharaji/Truth/Abuse/abuse.htm

A photograph of Jagdeo the alleged pedophile.
http://www.ex-premie.org/papers/jagdeo.htm

FAQs page from Maharaji’s recently edited webpage.
http://www.elanvital.org/faq_opposing_views.htm

Satpal. Maharaji’s estranged brother named Balbagwan Ji in the 1973 videotape
http://www.manavdharam.org/index.html

Sarlo’s guru rating service
http://www.globalserve.net/~sarlo/RatingsLM.htm

Message posted September 11th 2000 on Internet by Susan Haupt, who claims she was molested by Jagdeo in 1977.

Dear all,
I took a break from posting because was in the process of responding to the Élan Vital’s FAQ regarding Jagdeo, “Has Élan Vital covered up alleged past improper behavior?” Now that I have received an official response from EV, here is my report on the actions I have taken.

After much thought as to how best respond to EV’s FAQ, I decided to write a letter to Rawat and try to have it delivered to him directly. I was able to accomplish this with the assistance of Michael Dettmers. Although Michael was not sure that he could succeed in getting my letter delivered directly to Rawat since he had had no contact with Rawat for at least a decade, he promised me that he would use whatever “residual influence” he may still have to see that my letter was delivered personally to Rawat by someone who has direct access to him. To that end, Michael enclosed my letter inside a personal letter he wrote to Rawat. When Rawat received Michael’s letter, he did not know the purpose of Michael’s communiqué nor that it contained my letter. Given EV’s subsequent responses to our letters, I am confident that Rawat received my letter. What follows are copies of our letters and EV’s responses.

Letter addressed to Maharaji posted on Internet by Susan Haupt.

My letter to Rawat (I am editing the original letter I sent to respect the privacy of another victim)

July 19, 2000
Dear Mr. Rawat,

My name is Susan Haupt. I am the person known as “Susan” who has made public on the ”Ex-premie Website” my experience with Jagdeo when I was a teenager.

I am writing to you now in response to claims made on your Élan Vital website in a new section called FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions). In response to the question “Has Élan Vital covered up alleged past improper behavior?” you state that “We are aware that some opposing sites make allegations in particular against one individual concerning events alleged to have happened 25 years ago. This kind of behavior, if true, is completely unacceptable to Élan Vital and we would be as appalled as anyone if this was found to be true. The only information we have comes from postings on these sites. We were able to contact two individuals who made these allegations and asked that they help shed light on what happened but as yet have received no cooperation from them. As it stands Élan Vital has still received no direct information from any of the alleged victims and to date no complaint has been filed with Élan Vital or with any authorities”.

Mr. Rawat let me assure you that twice in the past I have reported what had happened to me and what I knew about Jagdeo. First to Randy Prouty and secondly to Judy Osborne who both allegedly now claim “no recollection” of the conversations I had with them. So naturally, I feel insulted that you think I am unwilling to come forward with a complaint, nor do I have any trust that Élan Vital really wishes to seriously investigate this matter. However, I still have deep concern that Jagdeo may still be molesting children, despite his advanced age, and if reporting this matter a third time might allow you to finally stop him, I shall do so.

Although I am now 38 and happily married with three children, in 1977, I was a 15-year-old premie living in Miami. I had been very involved with the Divine Light Mission for the previous two years and had received knowledge from Mahatma Jagdeo in January 1975. I was very sincere in my commitment to “Guru Maharaj Ji” and when I sang arti I believed every word. I also lined up with the other premies to receive darshan. I believed I was a part of the greatest miracle of the perfect master incarnating on earth to bring Knowledge and peace to mankind.

I point this out now because, had I not believed these things, I might have dealt with what I knew about Jagdeo differently. How I dealt with what did happen is something I regret tremendously. To understand what happened, and how it happened, one really has to recall the common premie beliefs of that time. These were beliefs that you were obviously well aware of and promoted. I went to satsang nearly every night, meditated morning and night, and attended every festival I could. I believed you were the perfect master, superior power in person, my Lord, my satguru. I believed you to be a benevolent, kind, messiah-like figure.

So in 1977, I was 15, when Jagdeo returned to Miami, I was thrilled because, as my initiator, he was special to me. He also seemed to have a special fondness for children. At my knowledge selection and session, several young girls with flowers in their hair sat at his feet. At this time in DLM, Mahatmas were treated with great respect, and certainly it was an honor for these girls to sit facing the crowd, at Mahatma Ji’s feet. Everyone knew he seemed to love children. In 1977, he invited me, then 15, and another (edited for privacy) to the Venetian pool in Coral Gables. I felt honored. An ashram premie brother drove us there (I do not remember his name). While we were in the pool, Jagdeo rubbed up against me over and over. He did this especially in the caves there. But, I did not think too much about it, I thought it was accidental.
When we returned to the ashram (edited for privacy) and I were alone with him for the first time. He began singing songs and shouting “Bhole Shri Satguru Dev Maharaj Ki Jai” a lot. We would sing and cheer with him. After each song or cheer he would hug us. At first it just seemed like we were expressing joy over being premies and the fact that Guru Maharaj Ji, the living perfect master, was here and we were his devotees. But, these hugs evolved into something else. Each time he would hug us, his hands would end up on our breasts or buttocks. I would try to wiggle out of these hugs without being obviously disrespectful to him. I could not believe it was happening. I questioned my own judgment. I thought maybe in India people did not know not to touch these areas, I thought maybe Mahatma Ji was so “pure” that he did not know. But he was trembling each time he touched us. (edited for privacy here too, but this section of the letter makes it clear that I knew of worse incidents of abuse than what happened to me) also told me that the other girls at my knowledge session had experienced some level of molestation from him, as they refused to go near him and called him “nasty”.
I was very upset about this and I knew that it had to end. I was certain as to the correct way to end it as well. I had to let Guru Maharaj Ji know. I did not even consider telling my mom, a non-premie, or the police. Not only did I not want to embarrass Guru Maharaj Ji by telling, I also genuinely felt that telling you about this situation was the ultimate way to find justice. I loved and trusted you completely, but you were not terribly accessible to the average premie.
I knew Randy Prouty fairly well from his days as a community coordinator in Miami in 1975. I thought highly of him and he had personal access to you. I felt that telling Randy would be the best way to let you know. So, when Randy came to Miami in 1977, I told him what had happened (edited for privacy here but I did make it clear to Randy that there was worse abuse and more victims than just myself). Randy said “You did the right thing to tell me,” and that he would tell you. I trusted Randy, and Guru Maharaj Ji. I felt I had done the right thing. I was very aware that if Jagdeo did this over the span of two years to several children in Miami, that it was likely he did this wherever he went to many children. But I also felt that, in telling Randy, I was giving you the information you needed to stop him.

Later, I saw that Jagdeo seemed to be still traveling as an initiator. I even saw him in the entrance to a darshan tunnel. It was very disturbing to see a child molester as one of the people greeting people as they came in. I hoped that maybe you had a guard on him. Now, a few years later, when I thought about what I had seen, Jagdeo in the darshan line tunnel, Jagdeo at festivals, the idea that he had a 24-hour guard seemed ludicrous. I wondered if perhaps Randy had never told you as he said he had. Perhaps, he had downplayed the seriousness of it. One day I was watching a talk show and the topic was child sexual abuse and pedophiles. It was emphasized that these people never get better. Of course, I thought about Jagdeo.

At that point, I decided to tell my story again. I knew of Judy Osborne through some premie friends. I was very involved in natural childbirth education and knew Judy was Marolyn’s midwife. I thought perhaps a woman, and a midwife, would understand how serious this was. I do not remember if I called her or wrote her, but somehow I got a message through to her to call me. She did, and I told her the story. I want to emphasize that I did not tell her I had ever told Randy, or anyone, about Jagdeo before. I did this because I wanted the issue presented to you again. I thought maybe with all the publicity about pedophiles, the seriousness of this situation would be recognized. Judy was very respectful and caring. I felt she did understand that this was important. She called me back about a week later and said that she told you, and that you had heard about this before, and was glad it was “not a new incident.“

How did I feel? One thing I felt was guilt for not trusting Randy. Obviously, Randy had indeed relayed my story to you. I said to Judy, “Yes, I had told Randy years ago when it had happened, but I thought he must not have told you as nothing was done that I could tell.” Judy seemed a little annoyed that I had not told her about telling Randy. She said, “Randy is a good guy, of course he would have told Maharaj Ji”. I felt it was out of my hands. I do not know if I considered telling the police at that time. By now, I had two small children, no means of supporting myself, and a husband who worked at DECA. I also still could not imagine why you would not do something about Jagdeo, if only to protect yourself. Frankly, I still do not understand that.

Over a decade later, I was remarried and living happily in California. I had not thought much about you or premies for many years. But, when I got online and discovered the wonders of a search engine, I thought, “hmm….whatever happened to the Guru….” and I found “Ex premie org.” When I relayed what had happened regarding Jagdeo, I was quickly put in touch with another victim, Abi. Abi lived in England when she was molested by Jagdeo much worse than I was. My worst fears about him were true; it was one thing to suspect he molested children all over the globe, now I knew it. This was very upsetting to me.

Given this background, I’m sure you will understand why I feel insulted by the statement on your website that you have contacted the two victims who refuse to speak to you. To make matters worse, Glen Whitaker’s insulting letter denies that I ever reported this before when indeed I have reported it twice.

So why on earth am I writing to you now? Frankly, I have grave doubts that this letter will effect any change whatsoever. But, I do care, very much, that wherever Jagdeo is, children are in danger. I do want to do what is right and I do not trust your organization at all. Frankly, I do not trust you either. I have many bitter feelings; both about how the issue of Jagdeo was handled and about the years I spent worshipping you. Mr. Dettmers, whom I have found to be a very honorable man, states that how the matter of Jagdeo was handled was uncharacteristic of your response to other similar events of sexual misconduct among the Mahatmas. Even as a rank and file 'premie” I had heard stories which support this statement. If there is some possibility that my reporting this again will this time lead to a response which can allow me some closure on this issue, I would welcome that.

I would appreciate it if you would kindly acknowledge that you have received and read this letter. Because I have continued wariness and mistrust of your organization, I am hesitant to invite you or your representatives to call or write me directly. If you would contact Mr. Dettmers with your response I would be more comfortable with that. If you have, however, any questions about this matter, which I can answer, I certainly would consider making myself available to answer them. It would be very necessary though, if this were to occur, that I protect myself from further instances of an inability on your organization’s part to remember what I have reported.

Sincerely,
Susan Haupt

Michael Dettmers’s cover letter to Rawat.
Micheal who once was Maharaji’s chief of staff is now a business consultant. A link to his webpage can be found at the above-noted “drek” site (http://www.oz.net/~drek/) under the title “Where are they now”

and on. You know the rest.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:39:24 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: But he will pass the opportunity until too late
Message:
Rawat is an abuser. A manipulator who doesn't face reality. He sneaks his way around like those goowee animals one find at the end of a fishing line. You know, they wiggle on the hook? Yes. That's it, fishes. Anyways.

One technique he's quite good at is making contradictions look normal. Remember, he says he never pretended to be god.

Rajaji once admitted his brother will never face it frankly. My prediction the best is yet to come. Stay tuned.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:08:09 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: None
To: Yves
Subject: But he will pass the opportunity until too late
Message:
I don't think most of us will ever get one thin dime from Rawat, the best revenge that one can get in this situation is to exspose him and his game to others. Abusers of all descriptions i.e. wife beaters, child molesters, hustlers who con the elderly out or their socil security money, all try to isolate their victims to keep the abuse a secret. They fear that their victims will communicate with people in the larger community and this will 1) draw attention to the problem and 2) resualt in some type of intervention.

Abusers like vampires can only do their work in darkness, they hate the light. Keep bringing Rawat out into the light of public scrutiny.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:35:36 (GMT)
From: Yves' away
Email: None
To: DeProGram Anand Ji
Subject: Turn on the limelight and speak-up.
Message:
I made a email group of news organizations and keep them posted. I loved your last post.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:50:25 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Starting a new 'best of the forum' - help needed
Message:
Check the new

New Best of the Forum page.

I already dug quite some interesting stuff out of the archives.

How Much Evidence - Would Satisfy You?
Charlie - Comes out of the closet
Hypothetical Questions - Indeed
What is the Maharaji Cult? - Elan Vital says it's not
Does Maharaji have an affluent lifestyle? - A response to EV's FAQ
The Real Historic Dialogue - Between Sarupanand and Hans
But were/are you happy? - my problems 'around' were directly due to him
Response to Elan Vital - from one of his critics
Well, we sure got M's attention!!!! - the Rock of Gibraltar has cracked
On Guru Lineage - Who was Hans Ji's guru?
Regarding Jagdeo - LISTEN, MAHARAJI, YOU COWARD
Did M think he was God incarnate? - Did we? Does he? Do we?
Getting 'netted' or getting 'hooked'? - It’s designed to get you flat on the slab
Dettmers speaks out a little more - on the ashrams' closure
Michael Dettmers speaks out - on the ashrams' closure

Do you remember more valuable stuff to add to the list?

Don't want to interact with eDreck's page though ....


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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 01:52:32 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Very nice indeed! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 21:28:04 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Starting a new 'best of the forum': Susan's letter
Message:
Please include Susan's posted letter of 9/11

thanks

Peace

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 21:16:25 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Please include Susan's letter - posted 9/11
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 08:30:28 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: Of course, but it's not yet!!!!!
Message:
I'll have it in the best of WHEN it won't be available to read on the forum anymore.

Why? Because I intend to link the 'best ofs' to the archive holding them, in case somebody wants to read more of the related threads.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:17:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Way to go, JM! (nt)
Message:
ffff
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:06:48 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'd like to see links too
Message:
To Jagdeo' picture, to the site where Susan tells it all, to related links in general. Good work JMK.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:03:31 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I'd love to see Durga's letter there
Message:
Good work. I'll spend time on it tonight. Thanks.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:43:52 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Yves
Subject: I need help with my Words of Love page
Message:
That's a brilliant section on your site Jean-Michel. Now if I might hijack this thread, I also need some help with my Words of Love page.

If anyone has any choice premie posts that I can use there, please either email them to me or post them here, marked for my attention. Thanks.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:05:22 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Wouldn't be better if
Message:
you had a list of links to pages. The links could be titles instead of having one continous text wich is a bit teadious to read. You can reserve a special place to shroom and call it

memoirs of a shroom

or something.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 08:54:02 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: What do you mean ?
Message:
You can't have links to everything everywhere on every page on this website !!!

You'll always have to do some research strarting from the site map !

Unless the web technology improves ....

I know the whole website is a bit messy, and it's structure needs to be improved ..... I'll work on this.

But you'll never find anything and everything on the same page !!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 11:18:57 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: That is not what I meant
Message:
I was refering to the information on you site, especially the what you call the [love page]. It could be structured to access the information that 'you' keep. Linking to this site, or others is up to you.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 12:47:59 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Now you're both talking at cross purposes
Message:
Salam, you were refering to my Words of Love page. Jean-Michel thought you were refering to his page.

The words of love page has only got one contributor at the moment but if I put more stuff on then I will subdivide it into seperate pages.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 15:47:05 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sorry, I am only a confused pwkie..nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 22:41:02 (GMT)
From: suchabanana
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I need help with my Words of Love page
Message:
Words of Love page is definitely a facetious title, dude --

r.e. your initial page:
Shroom ingested way too many on that one, for sure! What a stinky... someone get a match, fast...

Frankly, though, most premies I have known wouldn't respond like he did (with a few notable exceptions). But then, I usually don't hang out with people enough to see their other sides.

I'm thinking: let's start some positive healing pages for recovering people -- instead of a lynch mob, or scavengers picking a corpse.

Read Susan's letter again and you'll understand that a lot of people are still suffering and need some positive support. They might be hesitant about coming forward and posting right now, and maybe getting slammed or mocked -- but they are out there, nevertheless.

Anyway, you do what you feel you have to do, Sir Dave, and maybe I'll work on this other thing, too -- if there are people out there hurting (or otherwise depressed) who simply want to feel good again -- and whether they wish to tune in inside with meditation, or not...

Heck, though -- factually, meditation and variations of the techniques have been around for thousands of years of recorded history. No one has a monopoly on the truth -- for each of us has that truth, that energy, and consciousness already within us.

So, it's up to each of us to make those choices that feel right in our lives. Yes, we have the right as individuals to choose!

As for me -- I've had lots of nice experiences (and cumulatively) from doing versions of the Kn. techniques for many years -- techniques I've also researched and found in ancient teachings and writings from diverse cultures. So, I do continue to appreciate my inner experience itself -- which still rings true for me.

To thine own heart be true..

Peace

P.S. ***** Q: Who actually owns Seva Corp?!!! Enquiring minds want to know. Somebody check this out, please! I mean, a whole lot of people gave money for the planes, thinking that the money was ultimately going to EVI, a non-profit. What's the real story?!! ...and how about all the ashram money, too!!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 04:21:09 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: suchabanana
Subject: You made a very important point
Message:
You wrote: I'm thinking: let's start some positive healing pages for recovering people -- instead of a lynch mob, or scavengers picking a corpse.
and
Read Susan's letter again and you'll understand that a lot of people are still suffering and need some positive support. They might be hesitant about coming forward and posting right now, and maybe getting slammed or mocked -- but they are out there, nevertheless.

THAT IS A VERY IMPORTANT OBSERVATION! GREAT IDEA!
Who knows who is reading this site, maybe hesitating to communicate. Maybe even premies who are waking up, and want to test the waters of using their brains again. And ex's who are still traumatized and intimitaded and not ready to handle any harsh confrontation, as they are still trying to sort out how they feel. FRAGILE!
EX-PREMIES CAN BE LOVING! AND SUPPORTIVE! THEY MUST BE IN THIS CASE!

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 17:43:10 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda's friend
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: If you are going to quote him, please do so in
Message:
the proper context. Why don't you put the posts that he was responding to? For example, Tonette's post would be most appropriate in demonstrating her 'words of love' that Shroomananda was responding to. And John T's post would be most informative.

As Shroomananda's friend, I find it most disturbing that you would clip his posts out of context in this way. And he said, 'F_cking toady creep...' as a response to what John T had said in his post. You added a letter there, didn't you? I find that reprehensible that not only do you put together out of context quotes but also misquote him!

Of course, what can one expect from a biased source?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:53:19 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Shroomananda's friend
Subject: Hey I know that smell!!!!!!! PU
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 03:36:09 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Shroomananda's friend
Subject: Heard from Linda Gross yet Mike?
Message:
Are you finding it hard to tear yourself away? Ask yourself why, and perhaps you'll be that much closer to understanding where we're coming from. But please, keep it to yourself, OK?
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 23:37:22 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda's friend
Subject: Just by observing his behavior here,
Message:
I think that it is safe to say that Shroomanada has no friends.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 20:07:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Shroomananda's friend
Subject: I like puzzles but this was too easy
Message:
Indeed, just what would you expect from such a biased source. This is an ex-premie site, after all and if Shroom wants to post here and insult us, then he will be guaranteed a somewhat biased reaction. I've nothing against him personally but he does post here a lot so he should expect some reaction.

And regarding the 'F_cking toady creep' thing. I just added the missing letter. That was an easy puzzle for me. I prefer harder ones.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:46:43 (GMT)
From: Yves' gone
Email: None
To: Shroomananda's friend
Subject: So miss Piggy's back? That was fast.
Message:
I wonder how many 'friends' she has.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:10:09 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: John Edwards -- Crossing Over
Message:
Hi:

Anyone have any thoughts on this guy? I have to confess, there don't seem to be many good explanations for what he does. A couple of things come to mind that suggest he's not really communicating with loved ones. First, he never gives anyone bad news about someone who has crossed over. It can't be all that peachy over there can it? And giving scary info would have to undermine his popularity, so it just doesn't happen. suggestive. But I have no ideas about how he's doing it. Maybe he's a Morlock?

One other thing. I noticed that people often comment after some communication from a loved one concerning some personal fact or event that they were just talking about that fact or event a few minutes before. Perhaps he has people listening via microphones and relaying information to him about certain people. But, I'm pretty sure that doesn't explain everything. Yup, he's got to be a Morlock alright, or a Faustian. Thoughts?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:06:29 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: John Edwards -- Crossing Over
Message:
The only way to scientifically prove that there is any truth in this is if someone over on 'the other side' communicates something which is only known by themselves and the person who they are passing a message on to.

My brother-in-law was astounded when he went to see a medium who said that his deceased wife (my sister) was telling her (the medium) how he used to carress her face in one particular way. Something which the medium couldn't have known about.

I'm still massively sceptical about these mediums, (I know nothing about John Edwards) but if there was enough concrete evidence that they really were in communication with people's loved ones, then there would be grounds to see it as more than just a parlour trick and it would be worth taking it seriously.

The jury's still out on that one.

Incidentally, I have a friend who goes to a spiritualist church now and then and she told me that her Mother has 'come through' on one occasion and the medium said that her mother was showing him her collection of aprons. In her living life, her mother had had a collection of aprons. (Amazing what some people collect).

Also, one man who 'came through' said he had brought his bike with him. He said he'd ridden it to the church. So we're in luck Scott. You really can take it with you and you'll be able to have a collection of recumbents on the other side.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:19:55 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: John Edwards -- Crossing Over
Message:
David:

Also, one man who 'came through' said he had brought his bike with him. He said he'd ridden it to the church. So we're in luck Scott. You really can take it with you and you'll be able to have a collection of recumbents on the other side.

That settles it. I'm buying that Aerocycle. Have never managed to average 20+mph for a 100 mile ride, but there's still time.

John Edwards has a nationally syndicated TV show on the SciFi network that is very popular. He seems to do some rather amazing things, communicating events that it appears he could not have known about. In some cases the person on this side didn't even know about it, until they checked with other family members. But is he communicating with the dead, or doing something else? It does seem odd that nothing negative ever comes through. Nobody is even pissed at anyone. Maybe they have rules over there about being nice...

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 08:00:08 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: He's another fraud
Message:
Wonder if he's fat too!
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:21:17 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: He's another fraud
Message:
Tonette:

Well, if he's a fraud he's a damned clever one.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:43:29 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: with an accomplice or two?
Message:
Ever seen the 'magician' David Blaine perform?
.
.
.
.
He's very impressive ... until you consider that he 'might' just use an accomplice or two.

.
.
.
(but to think that one of those accomplices COULD be the cameraperson? - well, just absurd, isn't it?) ;)

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 23:02:54 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: with an accomplice or two?
Message:
cq:

Well sure, if he's doing hot readings then he has to have accomplices, maybe lots of them. Still odd that no one has caught him yet, though.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:59:15 (GMT)
From: Humpty Dumpty
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Hey -watch that fat people stuff-not pc. nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:53:27 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: Humpty Dumpty
Subject: Why Maharaji APPEARS to be a FAT SLOB
Message:
I fergit but it has something to do with taking in our karma or absorbing all the LUV we send HIM

Simple solution: Do Service, Satsang, Meditation, Kiss His stinkin' Lotus FEETS and drink lots of Jack Daniels-all is gooooooood!!

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:23:05 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Humpty Dumpty
Subject: Yes, don't you know, fat is beautiful! (nt)
Message:
ffff
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 12:42:04 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Humpty Dumpty
Subject: Didn't mean to offend
Message:
It's just that I can recall so many premies living without proper food. I'm not one to talk as I have a few extra pounds myself. Sorry.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:11:16 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: John Edward
Message:
I saw John Edward (no s) do his thing in person about two years ago. He is not fat, but young and rather good looking in a New York Italian sort of way. During the session I sat in on, he had several people in tears and made hit after hit. I haven't seen his television show because I don't get the SciFi channel. If he is actually cheating, he does a great job at it and nobody seems to have caught him yet. Nobody has debunked him, or Van Praugh. I personally can't stand Sylvia Brown, but I don't think she has been debunked either.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:51:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: No one's debunked van Praagh? Here ......
Message:
(The following is excerpted from HOW WE BELIEVE: The Search for God in an Age of Science (W. H. Freeman, 1999, Chapter 3), by Michael Shermer.)

How Psychics and Mediums Work:A Case Study of James Van Praagh

By Michael Shermer

Talking Twaddle With the Dead

Throughout much of 1998 and 1999, the best-selling book in America was by a man who says he can talk to the dead (and so can you, if you buy his book). It turns out that our loved ones who have passed over are not really dead, just on another spiritual plane. All you have to do is fine tune your frequencies and, like Sri Leachim Remresh, you too can turn off the Here and Now and tune into that Something Else.

I am referring to James Van Praagh, the world’s most famous medium…for now anyway. He appeared three times, unopposed, on Larry King Live. He was featured on NBC’s Dateline, The Today Show, and on ABC’s 20/20. He made the talkshow rounds, including on Oprah (who was mildly skeptical) and Charles Grodin (who was not skeptical at all), and even had Charles Gibson on ABC’s Good Morning America talking to his dead dad. Cher met with him to talk one last time with Sonny. Denise Brown received a reading to make a final connection with her sister, Nicole Brown Simpson. What is going on here? Who is James Van Praagh, and why do so many people believe in him?

An Actor in Search of a Role

A brief glance at Van Praagh’s biography is revealing. According to Alex Witchel of the New York Times (February 22, 1998), Van Praagh is the third of four children, born and raised Roman Catholic in Bayside, Queens, New York. At one point, he considered becoming a priest. He served as an altar boy and even entered a Catholic prep seminary—the Blessed Sacrament Fathers and Brothers in Hyde Park. His father is Allan Van Praagh, the head carpenter at the Royale Theater on Broadway (where his brother still works). His mother was Irish-Catholic and one of his sisters is a eucharistic minister. While att ending college he found part-time work at the theater where, says Witchel, while the other stagehands were playing cards during the shows, Van Praagh “was out front watching, picking up pointers he still uses for his numerous television appearances.” The lessons were well learned.

His college career was checkered, including enrollments at Queensboro Community College, State University of New York at Geneseo, Hunter College, and, finally, San Francisco State University where he graduated with a degree in Broadcasting and Communications. Subsequently he moved to Los Angeles and began working in the entertainment industry, including Paramount Studios and a stint with the famed William Morris agency in Hollywood. He confesses in his book, Talking to Heaven, “I dreamed of a career as a screenwriter. As luck would have it, while coordinating a conference with the creative staff of Hill Street Blues, I became friendly with one of the show’s producers. When I told him I would be graduating soon, he offered what I thought was my first big break.” After graduation, Van Praagh moved to Hollywood where “I vowed that I would not leave Tinsel Town until I realized my dream and became a writer.” Through a job at William Morris, Van Praagh met a medium who told him “You know, James, you are very mediumistic. The spirit people are telling me that one day you will give readings like this to other people. The spirits are planning to use you.” Van Praagh had found his role in Hollywood. He would act the part of a spirit medium.

In 1994 he was discovered by NBC’s The Other Side, for whom Van Praagh made numerous appearances in their exploration of the paranormal. This, and other media appearances, generated countless personal and group readings, pushing him above the psychic crowd and eventually leading to his status as a bestselling author.

Who does James Van Praagh say he is? According to his own web page, “Van Praagh is a survival evidence medium, meaning that he is able to bridge the gap between two planes of existence, that of the living and that of the dead, by providing evidential proof of life after death via detailed messages.” Van Praagh calls himself a “clairsentient,” or “clear feeling,” where he can allegedly “feel the emotions and personalities of the deceased.” His analogue, he says, is “Whoopi Goldberg in Ghost.” He claims that the “spirits communicate by their emotions,” and even though they do not speak English or any other language, they can tell you, for example, “that you changed your pants because of a hole in the left seam or that you couldn’t mail letters today because the stamps weren’t in the bottom right desk drawer.” He readily admits that he makes mistakes in his readings (there are so many he could hardly deny it), rationalizing it this way: “If I convey recognizable evidence along with even a fraction of the loving energy behind the message, I consider the reading successful.” In other words, if he can just get a few hits, then “convey” the all important emotional stroking that your loved one still loves you and is happy in heaven, he has done his job. From the feedback of his clients, this is all most people need.

The forty-year old medium’s message cuts to the core of most people’s deepest fear and loftiest desire, as he told the New York Times: “When a reunion between the living and the dead takes place it may be the first time the living understand that death has not robbed them of the love they once experienced with family and friends on the earth plane. With the knowledge of no death, they are free to live life.” No one has explained the attraction of this message better than Alexander Pope did over two and a half centuries ago, in his 1733 Essay on Man:

Hope springs eternal in the human breast;
Man never Is, but always To be blest.
The soul, uneasy, and confin’d from home,
Rests and expatiates in a life to come.

By itself, however, this does not explain precisely how our Belief Engine drives us to be compelled to believe such claims. Why are we so willing to suspend disbelief when it comes to the afterlife?

Gambling on the Afterlife

By way of analogy, consider the gambling games of Las Vegas. Gaming is big business, as anyone can see driving down the ever-burgeoning neon-glaring strip. In fact, gambling is the best bet in business, far superior to the stock market, as long as you are the house. With only a tiny advantage on any given game, and heaps of customers playing lots of rounds, the house is guaranteed to win. For the roulette wheel, for example, with eighteen red slots, eighteen black slots, and two green slots (zero and double zero), the take is only 5.26 percent. That is, by betting either black or red, you will win eighteen out of thirty-eight times, or 47.37 percent, whereas the house will win twenty out of thirty-eight times, or 52.63 percent. If you placed one hundred $1.00 bets, you would be out $5.26, on average. This may not sound like a lot, but cumulatively over time, with millions of gamblers betting billions of dollars every year, the house take is significant. Other games are better for gamblers. For straight bets in Craps the house take is a mere 1.4 percent; for Blackjack, with the most liberal rules and optimal (non-card-counting) player strategies, the house earns just under 1 percent. These are the best games to play if you are a gambler (that is to say, you will lose more slowly). With other games it is downhill for the gambler. The take for some slot machines, for example, is a staggering 25 percent. That is, you are losing 25 cents on the dollar, or, the house wins 62.5 percent and you win 37.5 percent of the time. Yet people still play. Why?

As B. F. Skinner showed in rats, pigeons, and humans, organisms do not need steady reinforcement to continue pressing a bar, pecking a plate, or pulling a one-armed bandit (slot machine). Intermittent reinforcement will do just as well, and sometimes even better at eliciting the desired behavior. A “Variable Ratio Schedule” of reinforcement turns out to be the best for gambling games, where the payoff is unpredictably variable, depending on a varying rate of responses. Payoff comes after ten pulls, then three pulls, then twelve pulls, then seven pulls, then twenty-three pulls, and so on. When I was a graduate student in experimental psychology in the mid 1970s I worked in an operant laboratory where we created these variable schedules of reinforcement for our subjects. It is remarkable how infrequently the payoffs need to come to keep the subjects motivated. And this was for such basic rewards as sugar water (rats), seed (pigeons), and money (humans). Imagine how much more motivating, and, correspondingly, lower the rate of reinforcement can be, when the reward is the belief that your lost loved ones are not really dead and, as an added bonus, you can speak with them through a medium. This renders intelligible, in part, the success of someone like James Van Praagh, whose hit rate is far below that of even the lowest-paying gambling games in Las Vegas. It also helps explain the more general case of how we believe.

I once sat in on a day of readings with Van Praagh and kept a running tally of his ratio of hits and misses for each of ten subjects (one of whom was me, all filmed for NBC’s Unsolved Mysteries). Being generous with what kind of information counted as a “hit,” Van Praagh averaged 5-10 hits for every 30 questions/statements, or 16-33 percent, significantly below that of roulette where the player wins almost half the time. But because Van Praagh’s payoff is the hope of life after death and a chance to speak with a lost loved one, people are exceptionally forgiving of his many misses. Like all gamblers, Van Praagh’s clients only need an occasional hit to convince them.

How to Talk to the Dead

Watching James Van Praagh work a crowd or do a one-on-one reading is an educational experience in human psychology. Make no mistake about it, this is one clever man. We may see him, at best, as morally reprehensible, but we should not underestimate his genuine theatrical talents and his understanding, gained through years of experience speaking with real people, of what touches off some of the deepest human emotions. Van Praagh masterfully uses his ability and learned skills in three basic techniques he uses to “talk” to the dead:

1. Cold Reading. Most of what Van Praagh does is what is known in the mentalism trade as cold reading, where you literally “read” someone “cold,” knowing nothing about them. He asks lots of questions and make numerous statements, some general and some specific, and sees what sticks. Most of the time he is wrong. His subjects visibly nod their heads “no.” But he only needs an occasional strike to convince his clientele he is genuine.

2. Warm Reading. This is utilizing known principles of psychology that apply to nearly everyone. For example, most grieving people will wear a piece of jewelry that has a connection to their loved one. Katie Couric on The Today Show, for example, after her husband died, wore his ring on a necklace when she returned to the show. Van Praagh knows this about mourning people and will say something like “do you have a ring or a piece of jewelry on you, please?” His subject cannot believe her ears and nods enthusiastically in the affirmative. He says “thank you,” and moves on as if he had just divined this from heaven. Most people also keep a photograph of their loved one either on them or near their bed, and Van Praagh will take credit for this specific hit that actually applies to most people.

Van Praagh is facile at determining the cause of death by focusing either on the chest or head areas, and then exploring whether it was a slow or sudden end. He works his way down through these possibilities as if he were following a computer flow chart and then fills in the blanks. “I’m feeling a pain in the chest.” If he gets a positive nod, he continues. “Did he have cancer, please? Because I’m seeing a slow death here.” If he gets the nod, he takes the hit. If the subject hesitates at all, he will quickly shift to heart attack. If it is the head, he goes for stroke or head injury from an automobile accident or fall. Statistically speaking there are only half a dozen ways most of us die, so with just a little probing, and the verbal and nonverbal cues of his subject, he can appear to get far more hits than he is really getting.

3. Hot Reading. Mentalist Max Maven informs me that some mentalists and psychics also do “hot” readings, where they obtain information on a subject ahead of time. I do not know if Van Praagh does research or uses private detectives to get information on people, but I have discovered from numerous television producers that he consciously and deliberately pumps them for information about his subjects ahead of time, then uses that information to deceive the viewing public that he got it from heaven. Leah Hanes, for example, who was a producer and researcher for NBC’s The Other Side, explained to me how Van Praagh used her to get information on guests during his numerous appearances on the show (interview on April 3, 1998): I can’t say I think James Van Praagh is a total fraud, because he came up with things I hadn’t told him, but there were moments on the show when he appeared to be coming up with fresh information that he got from me and other researchers earlier on. For example, I recall him asking about the profession of the deceased loved one of one of our guests, and I told him he was a fireman. Then, when the show began, he said something to the effect, “I see a uniform. Was he a policeman or fireman please?” Everyone was stunned, but he got that directly from me.

Deception or Self-Deception?

When I first began following Van Praagh I thought perhaps there was a certain element of self-deception on his part where, giving him the benefit of the doubt (he does appear likable), he developed his cold- and warm-reading techniques through a gradual developmental process of subject feedback and reinforcement, much like how gurus come to believe in their own divinity when enough of their followers tell them they are divine.

Human behavior is enormously complex, so I suppose it is possible that Van Praagh is both deceiving and self-deceiving, but over the years I have observed much more of the former than the latter. During the Unsolved Mysteries shoot, which lasted ten hours and was filled with numerous breaks, Van Praagh would routinely make small talk with us, asking lots of questions and obtaining information, which he subsequently used to his advantage when the cameras were rolling.

Is it possible he does not consciously realize that he is doing this? I contacted numerous mentalists about Van Praagh and they assured me that it is very unlikely he is self-deceiving because these are techniques that they all use, and they do so consciously and purposefully. I was told that I was being naive in trying to give Van Praagh the benefit of the doubt. I spoke to an individual who works a 900-psychic hotline, who knows Van Praagh and many of the people who work with him in that industry, and he assures me that Van Praagh is not self-deceived. The psychic industry consensus, this source tells me, is that James Van Praagh knows exactly what he is doing.

That may be so, but as a general principle self-deception is a powerful tool because if you believe the lie yourself your body is less likely to give off telltale clues, making it more difficult for an observer to detect deception. I am fully convinced that cult leaders, after being told for years by hundreds and thousands of followers that they are special, at some point begin to believe it themselves, making them all the more convincing to other and potential followers.

Caught Cheating

Even for seasoned observers it is remarkable how Van Praagh appears to get hits, even though a closer look reveals how he does it. When we were filming the 20/20 piece for ABC, I was told that overall he had not done well the night before, but that he did get a couple of startling hits—including the name of a woman’s family dog. But when we reviewed the videotape, here is what actually happened. Van Praagh was failing in his reading of a gentleman named Peter, who was poker-faced and obviously skeptical (without feedback Van Praagh’s hit rate drops significantly). After dozens of misses Van Praagh queried, “Who is Charlie?” Peter sat there dumfounded, unable to recall if he knew anyone of significance named Charlie, when suddenly the woman sitting in back of him—a complete stranger—blurted out “Charlie was our family dog.” Van Praagh seized the moment and proclaimed that he could see Charlie and and this woman’s Dad taking walks in heaven together. Apparently Van Praagh’s psychic abilities are not fine-tuned enough to tell the difference between a human and a dog.

The highlight of the 20/20 piece, however, was a case of hot reading. On a break, with a camera rolling, while relaxing and sipping a glass of water, Van Praagh suddenly called out to a young woman named Mary Jo: “Did your mother pass on?” Mary Jo nodded negatively, and then volunteered “Grandmother.” Fifty-four minutes later Van Praagh turned to her and said: “I want to tell you, there is a lady sitting behind you. She feels like a grandmother to me.” The next day, when I was shown this clip, one of the line producers said, “you know, I think he got that on the break. Too bad we don’t have it on film.” After checking they discovered they did, so Van Praagh was caught red-handed. When confronted by 20/20 correspondent Bill Ritter with the video clip, however, he demurred: “I don’t cheat. I don’t have to prove…I don’t cheat. I don’t cheat. I mean, come on….” Interesting. No one said anything about cheating. The gentleman doth protest too much.

As an example of the power of the Belief Engine, even after we caught Van Praagh cheating, Barbara Walters concluded in the wrap-up discussion: “I was skeptical. I still am. But I met James Van Praagh. He didn’t expect to meet me. He knew that my father’s name was Lew—Lewis he said—and he knew that my father had a glass eye. People don’t know that.” Ritter, doing his homework on this piece to the bitter end, explained: “You told me the story yesterday and I told you I would look and see what I could find out. Within a few minutes I found out that your father’s name was Lew and that he was very well known in show business. And this morning I was looking in a book and found a passage that says he was blind in one eye—an accidental incident as a child—and he had a glass eye. If I found that out, then he could have.” While Walters flustered in frustration, Hugh Downs declared without qualification: “I don’t believe him.”

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:51:43 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No one's debunked van Praagh? Here ......
Message:
Wish I could recall more about the guy, but as usual my memories of that era are a bit hazy. I'll put a bit more effort into remembering, and perhaps something will come back. I think he was a friend of a paraplegic fellow I lived with for awhile across the street from Paramount, and I'm positive he also used to hang out with that magic couple who always went to Larchmont. They lived in the 'Castle' which was a sort of club for magicians in Hollywood. God, my memory is crappy. I'd never make a decent medium.

But if John Edwards is doing anything he's doing 'hot' readings somehow. There are frequent instances where he mentions some connection that the person disagrees with... but he stubbornly persists until they start to remember something they'd forgotten. This suggests he's getting information on participants prior to their showing up, possibly from people peripheral to the whole scene who may have noticed one thing or another in passing. From now on I'm going to count the instances where someone declares: 'We were just talking about that!' Pretty clear suggestion that he's also being fed information by an evesdropper of some sort.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:28:32 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Honest to God, you won't believe this...
Message:
I didn't know who you were talking about for quite awhile, and then the reference to the Oprah show kicked in. This guy was a premie who used to come to Larchmont Hall frequently. I recognized him immediately when I saw him on Oprah. I saw him all the time when I lived in Hollywood near Paramount. In fact, we used to go to the same grocery. Just thought I'd share that little tidbit. Any one else who was at Larchmont remember the guy?
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:35:37 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Honest to God, you won't believe this...
Message:
Scott,

Are you saying that James Van Praagh was once a premie?

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:54:22 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Honest to God, you won't believe this...
Message:
Way:

Well, he sure hung out at Larchmont alot. I think I even recall him giving satsang. Wonder if Susan, from 'Eight is Enough,' remembers him. She was there at the same time.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:00:46 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Honest to God, you won't believe this...
Message:
Scott,

I've read Van Praagh's autobiography, which I believe is entitled Talking to Heaven. He certainly doesn't mention anything about Rawat. But either does Charles Cameron, so that doesn't prove anything. Van Praagh is a very famous personality these days, and if we could get him to denounce false gurus, particularly one, it would be a significant step.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:40:23 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Honest to God, you won't believe this...
Message:
Way:

I should add that I'm not all that intrigued by the idea of one charlatan debunking another. In fact, it's a little scary to think about.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:23:47 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Honest to God, you won't believe this...
Message:
Way:

At the time I made the statement above, about seeing him in Hollywood and around Paramount and Larchmont, I knew absolutely nothing about him beyond his face. I didn't finish reading Jim's post, but posted my message as soon as I read the Oprah reference. Now, it's possible he was a 'fellow traveller' just checking things out at Larchmont. A can't recall for sure. But he was definitely in that crowd of whacky Hollywood types that hung out with the magic folks. I may also have seen him at Bob Badnesh's house. I think he was around quite a bit. In fact, I think he was... Oh yeah, I remember now. He WAS a premie, and was making his living as an Astrologer. YUP, I remember now. He did charts for a lot of premies. I even recall him being scolded by a Mahatma who said he ought to go into the toy business and make something to delight children, rather than selling lies, BS, and false hope to people. (This was one of your more down to earth Mahatmas. Maybe Rajeshwar.) A recall it embarassed him to death. Hah, this is fun. Do I get a prize?

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:27:34 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Great article - recommended reading... Thanks (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:52:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: van Praagh debunked (Part II)
Message:
Where have we heard all this before? A hundred years ago, when mediums, seances, and spiritualism were all the rage in England and America, Thomas Henry Huxley concluded, as only he could in his biting wit, that as nonsensical as it was, spiritual manifestations might at least reduce suicides: “Better live a crossing-sweeper than die and be made to talk twaddle by a ‘medium’ hired at a guinea a seance.”

The Tragedy of Death

The simplest explanation for how James Van Praagh can get away with such an outrageous claim on such questionable techniques is that he is dealing with a subject the likes of which it would be hard to top for tragedy and finality—death. Sooner or later we all will face this inevitability, starting, in the normal course of events, with the loss of our parents, then siblings and friends, and eventually ourselves. It is a grim outcome under the best of circumstances, made all the worse when death comes early or accidentally to those whose “time was not up.” As those who traffic in the business of loss, death, and grief know all too well, we are often at our most vulnerable at such times. Giving deep thought to this reality can cause the most controlled and rational among us to succumb to our emotions.

I experienced the full force of this reality on April 2, 1998. The events of that day prompted me to consider what I would say to someone who is grieving. The ABC television program 20/20 came to my home and office, then followed me to Occidental College to shoot some background footage in my critical thinking course. I thought I would ask the students to respond to a question I routinely receive from journalists: “What’s the harm in what James Van Praagh does?” The students had plenty to say, but one woman named Melissa told a personal story about how her Dad had died when she was ten and that she had never really gotten over it. She was sad that her father never got to see her play volleyball or basketball, or to see her graduate from High School. Her opinion of James Van Praagh was less than charitable, to say the least. She could not imagine how such a performance could make someone feel better about death. In a maturity beyond her years, she expressed her opinion that one does not really get over such a loss; one just learns to live with it: “When my dad first died I just wanted to get on with my life and not let it bother me too much, now I’m just trying not to forget him. Next year when I turn twenty I will have lived ten years with my Dad and ten years without him…so I guess that is when my life will begin…like a new chapter or something.” At this point she was fighting back her tears. It was a very touching moment.

When I returned home I was preparing to send Melissa an e-mail expressing how tragic it must have been to lose her Dad at such a young age, when I read this e-mail from my sister:

I was thinking of Dad today on this 12th anniversary and how proud he would have been of you and all you have accomplished with your life. For some reason, I have really been missing him lately, more than I have in a long time and it’s still so hard to be without him. I really hope there is a heaven, even though I know otherwise, but the thought of never seeing him again, ever, is almost too hard to bear. Love you, Tina.

Our father died twelve years ago that day, April 2, 1986, and it is probably a good thing I had not realized that in class as it would have been very difficult to remain composed.

This was such a peculiar conjuncture of events that it prompted me to give some thought about what I would say to someone experiencing grief. Having watched James Van Praagh now for over five years, I would imagine he might say something to this effect:

It’s okay Melissa, your Dad is here now in the room with us. He’s telling me he loves you. He says he watches over you. He loves watching you play basketball and volleyball. He saw you graduate. He is with you always. Don’t be sad. Don’t cry. You will get to see him again. Everything is fine.

My response to Melissa, and to everyone who has ever received a “reading” from Van Praagh, is as follows:

First of all, no one knows if any of this is true, but even if it is, why would your loved one talk with this guy you don’t even know? Why would he choose to make his appearance in some television studio or at some hotel conference room with hundreds of other people around? Why doesn’t he talk to you instead? You’re the one he loves, not this guy getting $40 a seat in a hall with 400 people, or $200 a private reading, or two million dollars for a book filled with this sort of drivel. Why do you have to pay someone to talk t o your loved one?

In the St. Louis Post Dispatch (March 1, 1998) Van Praagh called me a “rat fink.” I take this as a compliment because to “rat” on someone is to tell the truth about them. In Mafia circles it means a crime has been exposed. On the 20/20 show Van Praagh offered this view of the difference between my work and his: “He makes his life beating people down, putting people down. I make my life healing and bringing people up. I’m not a circus act. I’m not a side show. It’s God’s work.” By now nearly everyone in America has heard what James Van Praagh says to aching hearts. Here is what I might say. It is not God’s work, but you judge who is putting people down or bringing them up. To Melissa, to my sisters Tina and Shawn, and to my own daughter Devin should I die before my time, I close with this statement:

I am sorry this happened to you. It isn’t fair. It isn’t fair at all. If I were you I would feel cheated and hurt; I might even be angry that I didn’t get more time with my Dad. You have every right to feel bad. If you want to cry, you should. It’s okay. It’s more than okay. It’s human. Very human. All loving, caring people grieve when those they love are gone. And all of us, every last one of us, will experience this feeling at some point in our lives. Sometimes we grieve very deeply and for a very long time. Sometimes we get over it and sometimes we do not. Mostly we get on with our lives because there is nothing else we can do. But loving, caring people continue to think about their loved ones no matter how far they have gotten on with their lives, because our lost loved ones continue to live. No one knows if they really continue to live in some other place—I suspect not—but we do know for sure, with as much certainty as any scientific theory or philosophical argument can muster, that our loved ones continue to live in our memories and in our lives. It isn’t wrong to feel sad. It is right. Self-evidently right. It means we love and can be loved. It means our loved ones continue to live because we continue to miss them. Tears of sadness are really tears of love. Why shouldn’t you cry for your Dad? He’s your Dad and you love him. Don’t let anyone try to take that away from you. The freedom to grieve and love is one of the fundamentals of being human. To try to take that freedom away on a chimera of feigned hope and promises that cannot be filled is inhuman. Celebrate your love for your Dad in every way you can. That is your right, your freedom, your humanness.


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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 02:06:35 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great article, think I'm going to go out.....
Message:
and buy the book. Thanks for going to all the trouble to post that!
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:56:14 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Go, Judge Judy
Message:
There is a new chatline for fans of the new John Edward show. As can be expected, the conversation is between people who think he is a fraud and people who have actually had personal readings and have been entirely convinced.

The chatline is reached at a site for fans of all the various daytime TV shows. The ratings are provided and Judge Judy beats out Oprah and Jerry Springer and all the rest.

Hey Jim, do you like Judge Judy?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 03:00:46 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I've never seen her
Message:
We're Canadian, eh? Youse must be American.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 00:04:22 (GMT)
From: David Sedaris
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: I love Judge Judy SO MUCH...
Message:
I really wish she would run for Mayor of New York.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 02:11:49 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: David Sedaris
Subject: Oh, give me a fucking break
Message:
I really wish she would run for Mayor of New York.

It would be more fun if Geraldo Rivera won. He IS planning to run, you know. Can you picture these two running against each other?

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 23:49:12 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Just curious, but why do people assume that the
Message:
dead have any idea what is going on? Does one become wiser once one croaks? Also, why do people assume that the dead know what is happening in this world?
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 00:24:55 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Kinky ghosts
Message:
A good couple of questions there and I've often thought about that. Some ghosts don't seem all that bright. My friend saw a male ghost in the women's toilets in a pub in Bournemouth and he's often been seen luking there. He was dressed in the uniform of a Canadian soldier of WW2 and there were Canadian soldiers billetted there during the war.

Does this ghost like hanging around women's toilets, I ask myself? He gave my friend a smile and then disappeared so he seemed friendly enough.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 05:15:56 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Just curious, but why do people assume that the
Message:
Michael:

Heh. Bodies make you stupid. Everyone knows that.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:20:07 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji
Message:
It is ok for an ass hole like shroom to come and preach about knowledge. It is also fine for a bigger ass hole to go around the world with 20 million-dollar jet. It is bad for a dickhead head like me to end up having to clean up after them.

Emotional scares, what part of my head do they occupy? Anyone knows?
I need help. The basted have broke something inside of me. Each time I think that I have gone over it,
Suddenly I find myself against a brick wall.
Look at me today, I am in fucking tears. I had a dream of someone I loved in the past, and just as in real life, assholeji was between us.
That is what I can not and could not understand about shitheadji. Is it OK to love someone else when you had knowledge.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
This is an unannounced.

NO. And if you think otherwise, you can go and fuck yourself.

I say it again, You can not love someone else when you have knowledge.

The proof is in the pudding.

I wish someone will write a book and call it “WHO IS THE REAL MAHARAJI” and have all the stories
In it. Starting with numbers on how many have committed suicide? How many have gone crazy?
How many have divorced? Separated, depressed, lost their careers, fortunes. A special Sex scandals
Section. The type of spirits he prefers.
His fortune, his lies.
I think that will be a very popular book.

That is why I left. That is still my problem. I must have vowed somewhere along the line never to love anything (except my dog) again. I have said it before, but I say it again, I hate every bit of you maharaji. I wish I never met you in this life, and I wish I will never do in any other life.
Even if salvation is only through you, then I do not want it. Go fuck yourself.
You should be in the witness stand answering questions; instead you have made a friggin fortune.
I do pray, I do not know to whom. My prayers are for you.
I pray that someone will loosen a bolt on the wing of your plane.
I pray that you get mugged by one of your PAM.
I pray that on day, when we get our asses together we can sue you for damages.
I pray that you can burn slowly in hell.
You see you are always on my mind. I do care about what you do.

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 15:25:36 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji
Message:
I thought this thread has gone inactive, but instead it keeps growing.

It is wounderful, no?
What a track record for the master of the universe?
What do those idiots at EV think of it?
I am thinking of a question to EV, say something on the line of,
What does EV think of the new alligations that some anonymos posters have put on the internet, regarding the number of divorces, broken relations........

Help me on this one.

I have copied all this thread to a file on my computer.

To those that want to follow, I will post the result of my conversation with the person I mentioned. I am not even keeping my fingers crossed as this how the conversation went from the start:

My e-mail:

I knew I can find you if I wanted to.

It has been so long.

I thought I have resolved the issue of knowing you.
But I was mistaken. I should have come last year to [...]
when I was in the [...] but then again I thought that I did not
need to.

The question that has been eating me all these years is still hunting me,
only you can answer it for me. But before you do so, please take as much as you
want.

This is my question:

'Is it possible to love someone else above from maharaji when one is a premie?'

I have answered this question. I would want to find out what you think about it.

Love

Salam

Reply to:

Salam,

To me there is no one else above Him. He is the one.

Then,

Salam,

The love I have for Maharaji is divine love, universal
love,

The love I have for someone is human love but it comes
from the same source. It's all love but the one I have
for my Master is above all types of love. It's he highest
love, the magic love, the purest of all.

Anyway, I known that you known that already.

Here I have some nice addresses for you to go, it's worth
it : www.maharaji.org
and www.elanvital.org

Well, I did not want to say ' what a load bullcrap' is this, especially after not seeing the person after 10 years. So I kind of side stepped. I am trying the window, maybe there is still something alive in her head still.

I love you all, with or without gumji li,

Salam

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 23:53:19 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Hi Salam
Message:
I know, I left the cult a long time ago, but your post really brought back memories of how I felt soon after I left. I really feel for you, and I can remember what it's like.

I think the thing that got me through it was stubborness. I don't know what else to call it. I just decided that I wasn't going to let Maharaji ruin any MORE of my life, and I was going to stop missing the opportunities.

I decided that the best revenge was living well. I really believe that, or at least it's a good thing to keep going.

It's really hard when you realize you have been ripped off on such a deep level. I tell people you can get over being deceived by a lover, by a business associate, etc., but being ripped off on a spiritual level is a whole different ballgame and that's what makes Maharaji particularly despicable. So, I think it's really healthy to be angry at him and to hate him. And I think it's fine if you don't ever forgive him, if you don't feel you can. Some things really are unforgivable.

But time really does heal and I know you will experience love again. I know I did. It took awhile, and my dog was a great companion in the meantime. Actually, my dog is about the only being I have ever met whose love really is unconditional. I really needed that for awhile. ::))

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 01:58:27 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hi Salam
Message:
So right. Anger IS an energy and RIGHTEOUS ANGER can be very healing. Keeping righteous anger bottled inside can make you very sick, physically and mentally. Your motivation and where the energy is directed makes all the difference. Don't direct it at innocents nor at YOURSELF.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 14:11:59 (GMT)
From: Wish
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Premies forbidden to have 'A bad day'
Message:
He would even criticize premies for having a 'bad day'. What was so bad about your day? Was you life in danger? You were alive weren't you? You should be thankful 24/7 for this breath for this life etc. etc. If Saddam Hussein, (this was not too long after the gulf war) caused you to have a bad day then I would understand, but what was so terrible about your day?

I mean, he shows you 4 practically useless meditation techniques, you listen to his boring videos, and that should bring you infinite joy and bliss without a single bad day for the rest of your life. He would even shout out 'WHO STRESSES YOU? YOU STRESS YOURSELF'. Like people would do that on purpose.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:20:25 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I hope god exists so that villans, such as
Message:
our very own Lard of the Universe, reap what they so zealously sow.

Yes, Maharaji, with any luck, your liesang about karma is true. You taught us that people who copulated too much would reincarnate as rabbits. What are you coming back as? I shudder to think!

Then again, Maharaji is already enjoying his just rewards--just look at this site. His job as a gardner are just about over. He forgot to use the weed-killer when he planted the seeds in us [luckily].

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:47:05 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Salam
Subject: Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji
Message:
Ijust read this quickly but its a lot like my stuff.. in little ways- in that i met a guy in 1980, had a daughter to him and he was never 'good enough' because he didnt have k- he said he experienced what they talked abouy inside and had for years since he did some yoga or meditation- I thought- oh how silly its not the big k. Over the years and since i stopped believing m knew it all- i realised i had bummed out this person because he didnt have k and he is actually stronger and more together than he probably would have been as a prem- he had the strength not to need it yet i probably missed the person i should have been a family with because of m.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 21:05:42 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Who Is The Real YOU
Message:
I experienced that too. Missed opportunities with people because of my own preoccupation/obsession not only with Maharaji but with other 'spiritual enlightenment stuff.' M set up expectations that were impossible so that human relationships seemed pedestrian indeed.

Now I see the people I overlooked along the way people could have taught me a lot more than any guru but I hid behind gurus to make myself feel better because my sense of self-worth was shit. I felt like I had nothing to offer anyone.

But now I know I do have a lot to offer!!

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:35:19 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji
Message:
Is not that true? The feeling of being superior. Of knowing something that no one else knows.
Where does that comes from?

Is not it also true that every premie at one time or another felt this way. And when one stands to argue about it that superiorty is reflected as being in your mind.

You are treated as a low life maggot that has something wroung.

I do not know where are you standing now, but have you contacted the father of your daughter? What does your daughter think of it now that she is mature? Did you bring her up as vegetarian? What about gumji, did you take her to satsang and festival?

I do not want to offend you, but I really would like to know.

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Date: Sat, Sep 16, 2000 at 07:13:15 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Salam
Subject: Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji
Message:
my daughter saw m when she was 3 from about 5 feet away (we were off to the toilet before a program and he was entering hall from car just in front of us)(i thought we were blessed..ha ..ha).
i agree we thought we had the secret and were a bit better than anyone else without it. That would be perfect for anyone with a bit of low self esteem to cling onto- a false ideal if ever there was one.
i tried to bring the dog up vegetarian but not the daughter as nutrition was my main concern there, not dodma. She is so well-balanced (thus far) but rejects all organised religion, any cults, masters and anything new age- probably maybe concedes their could be some superior power..maybe. She's a liberal atheist almost- but i guess kids revolt. She's out at an 18th party and yes her dad is here now- he's not perfect (who is?)- but good
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:01:33 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I wish I knew what to say to make you feel better
Message:
When I allow myself to really examine the range of emotions that pathetic fat jerk has caused in me I'm probably just like you. But please give yourself time it will get better. It's like going thru a divorce or a death. Geez it can be bad!
I'm glad you brought up the subject of not being able to love somebody if you are really following agaya. I saw many premies struggle with that one. It was particularily confronting to me because I was/am also married. Here I was a premie/sort of (it was very clear to me what my lowly status was-I was determined to finish school,I didn't go to every program,I didn't shout from the rooftops that M was the LORD-definate doubts with that one!-wasn't much of a meditater either) what I am trying to say is-I was still pretty normal functioning-sort of. So, here I am married to this guy I absolutely LOVED! But he's a devotee you see.....much more disciplined than I and I knew that on many occassions that fuck of a person, M, came between us! I remember being freaked out big time on those sat sang nights where it came down heavy from those initiators, who had constant diarrhea of the mouth(god they never shut up!), that married people with out children should split up! Well that was essentially when I stopped going to sat sang and started to distance myself. I still went to programs because I was married to this guy who would not of missed one within 1000 miles! And you know with all this supposed true love K was supposed to show you, some of the premies I lived with and were friends with were some of the most selfish people I have ever met in my life! I realized these people called premies mostly would stop at nothing in the name of 'their' experience. Didn't matter if it was an extra marital affair, handing over food stamp money to M when they should of been feeding and clothing their children, paying their rent/utilities, ect. You name it. There was no bounds to their behavior because just about everything could be satsanged away! It was SICK! So consider yourself lucky in a way Salam. At least you woke up and although it's not right or easy you will be a hard one to ever dupe again! And when you do find love with another person you will appreciate the real treasure that it is!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 23:57:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Great post Tonette....
Message:
I think it's posts like yours and Salam's and this whole thread, really, that this forum is all about.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:21:54 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: I wish I knew what to say to make you feel better
Message:
As far as your relation with your partner is concerned, I take it that you are still together. What happened when you stoped going to satsang. Did he give you a load of why you need to go?
How did you managed to work out your differences, especially when you decided to leave maharaji and not practice?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:36:04 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Well,
Message:
That's too personal of a question to answer in such a public place but I would be happy to talk with you thru e-mail. netguest42@yahoo.com
I will say we are still married but he never really considered me much of a premie since I did very little meditation. Just wasn't my thing. So to him my coming to terms with M and his mind fuck was a non issue since I never was what he would consider a premie. Although I beg to differ on that one. His contention was that if I really meditated I would understand and be a 'real premie' and thus there would be no problems.
As for working out differences that is a question I will deal with privately.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 13:58:17 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: Tonette
Subject: Did you get my e-mail
Message:
I e-mailed you on your address.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:51:30 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Tonette
Subject: I wish I knew what to say to make you feel better
Message:
could you re-inforce that? did he actually tell people to split up if they didnt have kids? that is so the pits if it actually came out of his mouth.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:44:36 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: sam
Subject: It came out of the initiators mouths
Message:
on more than one occasion. Randy Proudy, Ira Woods, Grace Wallace to name a few. In Washington DC there was always some talking head free loading off the ashram premies. But yes, I can still remember it like yesterday......'If you have this knowledge and are married but don't have any kids and don't dedicate yourself to Gooroo Maharaj Ji by joining the ashram then you are a damn fool!' Randy Proudy, 1979 Bethesda, Md.Evening satsang.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 00:04:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Many people DID split up....
Message:
Tonette,

I was community coordinator in DC when Randy was there spouting the 'everyone should be in the ashram' drivel, that he got, by the way, directly from the mouth of Maharaji, you can believe it. I feel really bad about that period. I never pressured anyone myself, but I never spoke up to question how awful the married premies were made to feel that they didn't get divorced and become renunciates. Little did Randy and the ashram premies realize that Maharaji would dump them on the streets, debts and all, a few years later. How awful those people who got divorced must have felt!

In Miami, there was a cult attorney who did almost nothing else but handle divorces for devotees so they could be 'free' to become ashramites. What a scandal.

By the way, do I know you?

Joe

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 01:47:15 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Yes, lots of broken families
Message:
Hard to say exactly how many broken families/couples resulted from that particular mind fuck. I can recall several. I don't remember you Joe. I thought David Horesford was the coordinator at the time. Remember how he had to marry that ashram girl that he got pregnant? David had just been transfered to Miami to do some important service or the other....perhaps DECA? So many of the marriages from that time period are over now. It's much greater than the 60% national average for divorce. I can't recall a single couple that I knew from this time period that are still together!!!!!!! I'm sure there are some from that period somewhere but I don't know of any. I lived in the Shelton Street Premie house for about a year. Boy, was I glad to get out of there! We then rented a basement apartment from Tom and Katja Bossola. They later moved to Miami to partake of the calling of the lord. My husband , Gale and I, are still together. I figure if we can survive the cult as a couple can survive anything!
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 16:15:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Tonette
Subject: Yes, lots of broken families
Message:
David Horsford replaced me in DC, because I got sent to Miami to....guess what?....'do service' at DECA, at the end of September, 1979. I was there through the Summer of that year. Randy Prouty and the 'get'em all in the ashram' campaign were both in full swing when I was there. I remember Randy quizzing me on 'which' community premies should be targeted to get them into the ashram, because Randy said that's where Maharaji wanted everyone who didn't have kids.

Karen Malinowski was one target, and she did succumb. There was also a woman who was an airling stewardess, can't remember her name.

Yeah, it was a scandal about David and what's her name. I guess David started selling Toyotas in the DC area.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:01:59 (GMT)
From: Yves' gone
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: I vote for retarded brother who voices-over Elvis
Message:
I always like the under dog and fool's bets. What's his name? Boolean Ji?
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:26:09 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Who Is The Real Guru Maharaji
Message:
One of the top things that I really despise about that delusional nutcase is the following:
(Now this is my experience, it may not have been yours.) When I got involved it was a time when people were trying to make significant changes in the world as well as themselves. I saw some of the best and brightest people, who were full of the highest and most compassionate goals, drawn to GM/DLM because of the promises of GM. They got involved consumed with a passion to bring peace to the world and end suffering. Bring enlightenment to the world, end starvation, etc. Great, mighty, lofty goals that even though they were naive were admirable.

One of the enticing aspects was that GM demanded that devotees practised SERVICE, SELFLESS SERVICE! There was a feeling that under GM's guidance we would be brought together and set on a path to help people through service! And what did the great Lord of the Universe guide us to do? NOTHING!

Instead of utilizing the power of sacrifice and selfless service, that his devotees were willing to give, to do something for people and animals on this planet he just used it to amass a personal fortune. They would have done (and did do) anything that he asked. But all he did was use them to agrandize himself and get rich! He had a veritable army at his beck and call and all he did was build his own pathetic empire. Every step of the way he took people further and further away from their ideals and ground them down to unthinking, unproductive, useless grovelers. And he did it! His guidance and 'wisdom'.

We tried to get the ashram directors to create service projects that would go out into the non-premie community and do things for people in need. The ideas would usually get shot down from Denver and the few times that we actually got something organized and tried to do something as a group it usually fizzled quickly because there was no agya from goom-margie! We had no shortage of volunteers but without the 'OK' from on high the satsang about being in our minds would crop up. Then entropy...fizzle...zilch.

Think of WHAT COULD HAVE HAPPENED if goom-margie had given the go ahead! Food programs, homeless shelters, animal shelters, battered wives/children shelters...who knows? But there was no time for that worldly stuff. No. We had to do service that ONLY DIRECTLY BENEFITTED GOOM-MARGIE AND HIS ORGANIZATION, period!! Palaces, cars, airplanes, electronic toys, more cars, gifts, etc.

And the bits of 'selfless service' that we were instructed to do was motivated with the agenda to find the chance to propagate, give satsang, increase the flock size to benefit him. This was not SELFLESS, it was self motivated, self absorbed, selfish self interest AT BEST! What a waste. SICK! A PITIFUL WASTE!!

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:46:17 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: PS
Message:
I was madly in love with an ashram gal. She was struggling with her love for me cuz she WAS LIVING IN THE ASHRAM OF THE LORD. As she came to terms with her feelings and talked to the ashram director about it....(A year in the making)
THEY TRANSFERED HER TO ANOTHER STATE! We had one phone conversation after that and then ....never a word again....
that was it. Thanks for bringing love into our lives GM/DLM!
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:24:47 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Do you think
Message:
that if she really cared, she would have left the ashram? That is what pisses me off about all this.

Are there any ex-ashrimes gals that can answer this question? I need to know. Has anyone of you left the ashram becuase you have fallen for someone else, regardless of being a premie or not, if yes how did you do it? What conflict did you have to resolve? If no, why not?

Again the question:

Is it possible to love someone else above from maharaji when one is a premie?

This is an irony, I wish my computer blows up,(but then I have ten of them) I searched on the net for that person in my dream and found her e-mail.

Help.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 04:04:06 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: Salam
Subject: Do you think
Message:
Oh the woman that I refered to, really did care for me. If she had not been in the ashram we might have gone on together for a long time...marriage?...who knows? But she was so brainwashed, oops I mean devoted, and her psyche was so very frail...she was to the point where she was absolutely terrified to do the littlest thing and I mean ANYTHING THAT INVOLVED MAKING A DECISION OR USING HER OWN JUDGEMENT if it wasn't clearly spelled out by goom-margie's directive! Or okayed by the ashram director or a mahatma.

She had been so psychologically crushed by her ashram/devotion experience that she wouldn't even eat anything unless it was prepared at the ashram cuz goom-margie might not approve!! It was heartbreaking to see. Her self esteem was just totally eroded.

She wasn't even allowed to say good-bye to me! She met with the ashram director about her feelings for me and the next day she was in Florida! Just like that! Bang! When I finally found out where she was and phoned her, she told me that she loved me and missed me but she knew that what she needed to do was just do more satsang, service and meditation and goom-margie would take care of her! He knew what was best for us! Then she said that she couldn't talk to me again because she needed to stay focused and talking to me was putting her into her mind! That was it. She is probably still involved, I don't know, but she seemed like someone reduced to a 'lifer'. She's probably a PAM by now.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 15:13:03 (GMT)
From: ExDork
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Do you think
Message:
Same thing happen to me, 20 years ago, but she came back and we lived in a premie house, I tried to wine, or whine, and dine her with my Guru Maharaji love but she thought I was a dork. She left the premie house and Maharaji and never looked back.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 09:57:41 (GMT)
From: sam
Email: -
To: Salam
Subject: Do you think
Message:
i say a big definite 'no'- no way. not a LOVER but i always loved my daughter much much much more than m. IVE heard prems put m before their kids , but i always thought ' which one can i do without and i never had to think twice- even when right into it
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 02:43:16 (GMT)
From: Larkin
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: So farewell then...
Message:
Invigorate our hopeful hearts
And free us from insanity
And pray the lord who gave you yours
Will not neglect humanity…
Your mission yet: to fill the world
With Prempal's propaganda
A shining light or lying shite
Shri shame-free Shroomananda..?

To pass on techniques 1 and 2
Would take most half a minute
If that's one half of Prempal's 'gift'
There's worse than nothing in it…
And never mind there's war and plague
Or bloodshed in Rwanda
Just lead us to those lotus boots
Shri shame-free Shroomananda…

To pass on techniques 3 and 4
I'd do it as a favour
(Provided you don't tell the world
I'm now your fucking saviour…)
So tell us is it true you dwell in
true satchitananda?
Or has your mind has been most unkind
And forced your heart to wander..?

I sympathise - it must be hard -
(Don’t look Prem's way to guide you
tho' if you have a credit card
He'll park his yacht beside you…)
It's horse for course and sauce, of course
For goose and for the gander…
But - hell - whoever cut you loose
Shri shame-free Shroomananda..?

Invigorate our hopeful hearts
And free us from insanity
And pray the lord who gave you yours
Will not neglect humanity…
Your mission yet: to fill the world
With Prempal's propaganda
A shining light or lying shite
Shri shame-free Shroomananda..?

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:25:55 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Great stuff Larkin
Message:
What a wonderful poem Larkin.

I hope you've saved a copy for posterity.

You should send a copy to the 'Perfect Crap Poet of Our Age'.

Maybe he could pick up a few tips.

Anth the Concrete Verse (it can only get worse)

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:54:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: You, sir, Larkin ...
Message:
... are one hell of a rhymster.

More than that. Rhymster doesn't do you justice. You certainly have a considerable talent (and look out, Sir Tim Rice, this guy (or gal?) could knock the spots off you).

How about part two of the ex-Maha/Hiawatha story?

(part one is already up and framed in my spare bedroom)

And that's not faint praise, I hope?

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:22:00 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Larkin
Subject: And I'm back...
Message:
Farewell Poem

I've been shamefully busy and I have neglected keeping up the House of Maharaji Drek, but the taming of the Shroom is a cause for rejoice and rebirth.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:50:44 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 'Compasionate Conservatism' - US money for cults
Message:
Did anyone see '60 Minutes 2' on Tuesday? George W. Bush wants to do away with welfare and give federal money to churches (and cults?) to feed the poor. They profiled Bush's 'guru' who has started his own church.

Anybody see 'Dateline NBC' on Sunday? They showed how under Bush a Christian cult that was shut down for abusing boys was reopened in Texas. Without state oversight, the Christian cult, styled as a 'boot camp' for wayward youths, went back to abusing boys - throwing them in a pit and urinating on them while they were forced to dig all night.

If Bush is elected look for much more of the same! Will we have millions in federal dollars channeled into Scientology? Will thousands be put in their 'thought reform' camps? Will Maharaji get millions to get people off drugs with meditation? It's truly scary. The untold side of 'compassionate conservatism'.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:35:27 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: Of all the things to worry about...
Message:
ET:

Did anyone see '60 Minutes 2' on Tuesday? George W. Bush wants to do away with welfare and give federal money to churches (and cults?) to feed the poor. They profiled Bush's 'guru' who has started his own church.

Sect, not cult. Take it easy on the language, or anything can mean anything.

Anybody see 'Dateline NBC' on Sunday? They showed how under Bush a Christian cult that was shut down for abusing boys was reopened in Texas. Without state oversight, the Christian cult, styled as a 'boot camp' for wayward youths, went back to abusing boys - throwing them in a pit and urinating on them while they were forced to dig all night.

That's just a Texas fraternity. You're bringing back memories...

If Bush is elected look for much more of the same! Will we have millions in federal dollars channeled into Scientology? Will thousands be put in their 'thought reform' camps? Will Maharaji get millions to get people off drugs with meditation? It's truly scary. The untold side of 'compassionate conservatism'.

Don't hold your breath. I don't know why he's jabbering like that. One never knows with Schrubb, since he's not too bright, but the Christian sects are in direct competition with 'New Age' religious organizations, and he's not going to give them a dime. You can take it to the bank. Think about it.

--Scott

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:16:51 (GMT)
From: Y FKA Bambie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Is it I must go easy on hard drugs or is there...
Message:
What is is here? Should I go easy on hard drugs or is there something fishy about the 'compassionate conservatism' formula? If this guy ever becomes prez, he will be the prez america deserve but then again, this is none of my voting business. Sorry guys. Follow your inner game of voting.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:32:35 (GMT)
From: ExTex
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVISM?
Message:
OXYMORON! Heavy on the MORON part.
The world runs on oil...shouldn't oilmen run the world?
Sorry....let's not get into politics. (You really want some flaming?)
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 13:15:17 (GMT)
From: Yves FKA Boris
Email: None
To: ExTex
Subject: Sorry. The subimimiminal part got to me
Message:
Forget what I just wrote. Rats.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 20:17:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Yves FKA Boris
Subject: Subliminal? but it's only one frame in 25.
Message:
This Bush guy is dead, politically speaking.

(at least if he STILL condones subliminal messages as being a valid way to conduct electoral campaigns.)

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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 00:18:07 (GMT)
From: George Dubya Bush
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: It's not 'Subliminal', it's 'subliminable.' .
Message:
I have been saying it all week. Plus, despite reports to the contrary, I am not dyslexic.
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 00:19:01 (GMT)
From: Al Gore
Email: None
To: George Dubya Bush
Subject: You're doin GREAT, George, KEEP IT UP! (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 20:05:37 (GMT)
From: George Budya Bush
Email: None
To: Al Gore
Subject: Roger and out (NT)
Message:
up whose?
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:40:57 (GMT)
From: Yves' siamese brother
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Wanna see a video of Balbagwan.
Message:
http://www.manavdharam.org/audio_video.html

He was 22 during Millenium. He must be 49 now. I hope he's got lots of nice things to wear. There is even a picture of the Prem Nagar ashram facilities.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:52:04 (GMT)
From: Yves' siamese sister
Email: None
To: Yves' siamese sister
Subject: I send them messages asking about Tribinanand
Message:
I send them messages asking about Tribinanand. They haven't answered yet. I wonder if they know Jagdeo's wherabout.

There is even a video of the replacement Mata Ji who must be Bubble-gum Ji's wife. It is interesting to see the indian version of the same business.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:26:07 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Since the Forum Administrator has chosen to
Message:
censor me, I choose to no longer respond to any of you 'ex' premies. I believe in free speech. I guess that doesn't apply here unless one is anti-Maharaji.

You guys can rant and rave about Maharaji all you want but you are not going to stop him from his work. He's helped many people to focus on the important things about life. Peace, clarity, joy, consciousness, understanding, gratitude, etc. He never forces anyone to practice Knowledge or to listen to him. I support him in his work.

I wish you all well. I believe in freedom. Even the freedom to hurl insults and innuendo as you often do here. I do want you to know however that when you call him names and enable untruths to proliferate here, you are just calling attention to your own immature natures. If you know someone in your personal lives that you dislike, do you treat that person in the same way? I don't think so. Most all of you have received Knowledge from Maharaji either in the old days or in the more recent years. Knowledge simply takes you within. I feel more in tune when I practice it. It provides a balance between a reactive mind and a loving heart. I just wish that some of you could remember what it feels like to have a loving heart.

Good luck in your future endeavors as long as they don't have an effect on his offer to human beings to connect with their inner selves. I will do everything in my power to help him to continue to do so. Human beings should have the choice to listen to him or not. To practice Knowledge or not. Freedom is what it's all about.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:30:01 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Since the Forum Administrator has chosen to
Message:
My heart bleeds for you.......Not!!!
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 05:27:37 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: The 'Miss Piggy act' isn't the best way to quit
Message:
One look ridiculous and coming back even more ridiculous. The best way is to stop breathing for about an hour. The rest is easy.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 04:31:35 (GMT)
From: What a
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: ...pompous ass.
Message:
I choose to no longer respond to any of you 'ex' premies.

Good choice.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:11:44 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: And it is about bloody time you go
Message:
Good job FA. He was told a hundered times, he deserve what he got.
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 23:43:48 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Since the Forum Administrator has chosen to
Message:
Mush wrote:

'I just wish that some of you could remember what it feels like to have a loving heart.'

So he thinks he's the only one here with a loving heart. God, the crass arrogance and ignorance of this person! He doesn't sound too loving to me, by the way.

Most people have loving hearts. Most people do and they don't need Mr Rawat to feel love. There is someone I'd say who hasn't got a loving heart and that's Mr Rawat.

Rawat's words and actions are not those of a loving person. His devotees also reflect that fact.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 23:10:44 (GMT)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Censorship?!!!
Message:
If you can't say it in 7000 words per week, pal, you probably can't say it.
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 21:39:58 (GMT)
From: JohnT
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: You should be ashamed
Message:
You are such a buffoon, your studied ignorance is repellent. It is quite obvious that Rawat gets in the way of spreading Knowledge. It could be propagated more freely and more wisely if he were in no involved.

You are prancing around here bollock naked and verbally incontinent about head wanking (as you know it). If you want to get onanistic with your crown chakra, fine. But here you look like some poor kid who's been taught to jerk off by Britney (whoever) on condition he does it in tribute to her only, and uh, stays in touch, you know maybe watch her videos, come to gigs.

Right now, you seem to have just three operational modes. There's the satsang machine; or you lose it and are ANGRY AT PEOPLE; or when cornered become egregiously false, sickly and hypocritical. None of this is your fault. You're a butterfly, caught in lie, in maya, by a demon, the evil alien slime toad.

You need to take steps, Shroomananda. Your lack of a proper sense of shame will certainly hurt others; and likely yourself. Along with your ethics, you've lost you're feel for truth. There's no honesty in what you write, in the way you evade issues and defy reason in babbling. Do you see what I see? It is not beautiful. Not like my wife.

I am offended you should drag her into our disagreement shroom. Shameful.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 21:38:22 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Shroom, I would bet the Forum Administrator...
Message:
...would welcome your postings on this Ex-Premie site the very day that Elan Vital lets us describe our 'experiences' on their site.

Free speech, indeed.

As you know, our purpose here, aside from just having another Web site to waste time on, is to shed a little light on who this so-called 'Master' really is. Your satsang doesn't help. It's simply an annoying little reminder of the crap we used to say to each other.

Jai Satchitanand!

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:53:33 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Since the Forum Administrator has chosen to
Message:
It's a bit strange to read that you believe in free speech since you worked so hard to keep Stoner and John T from posting since they didn't have knowledge. Your claim of a preference for freedom also has a less than sincere ring to it.
Face it, all you really believe in (or so you say) is that free gift and the ability to enjoy it and listening to Maharaji, the funniest pilot and watch maker alive.
Don't waste your three daily posts with those crappy poems.
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 23:23:59 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Phhtwaarrraaoooa,,,
Message:
Face it, all you really believe in (or so you say) is that free gift and the ability to enjoy it and listening to Maharaji, the funniest pilot and watch maker alive.

Thanks, Michael - I had a coffee-over-keyboard splurting moment then...

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:25:32 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: HURRAY!!!!!!!
Message:
Don't let the door hit you on the way out!
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:23:31 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: connect with their inner selves?
Message:
Is that before or after connecting with their inner wallet?

(I think 'wallet' means 'pocket book' or some such term, to those of you in the good ol' United States of America ...)

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:05:29 (GMT)
From: Yves
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: There goes the offended virgin
Message:
Too bad he/she give-up easy.
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:38:31 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Shroomananda
Subject: So long, Mr Mature...
Message:
...or should I say 'Au revoir'?

You're so right we could all take a few maturity lessons from you, Shroom. Lest we forget, Rob posted these samples below:

>>>

(To JohnT)
'F-cking toady creep who had the balls to investigate and RECEIVE Knowledge to determine it's validity and not a half-assed wannabe who never checked it out'. Loser.

I wonder what your lives would have been like if you had never heard about Knowledge or Maharaji. Many of you would have died of overdoses or been in jail or loveless marriages or careers.

He MADE you surrender to him. He MADE you give him residences. He MADE you uproot your life. He MADE you waste years of your life. GROW UP!!! Accept some of the responsibility for the decisions you made, for Christ's sake! Gripe, gripe, gripe, gripe. Ad nauseum

He doesn't charge money for Knowledge, does he? Most of you here are a bunch of sniveling whiners! Get over it!

(To Tonette)
Of course, you could always stay at home and play with yourself. That might be more satisfying in the long run. You don't work for an Escort Service, do you? If I ever get to go to Washington, I'd like somebody to accompany me to the event. And afterwards, back to the hotel. I'll even spring for dinner at a nice restaurant. Or we could call room service and eat in. I've got plenty of money for someone like you. Not that I couldn't get a date on my own. But I sometimes like to pay for it just so I don't have to take all the sass. Especially from a bitch

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 01:09:01 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Words of love
Message:
Yeah man - this dude's got love in his heart. I feel sorry for those of you who have forgotten THAT love. That shining Maharaji's love.

I think I should put this on my site. Perhaps have a special web page devoted to the words of love from these dear premies. Thanks for reminding us of these holy words of truth, Nigel. They will not be forgotten but will be put on show for all the world to see how magnificent is his grace.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 03:55:31 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Words of love
Message:
Dave,

Would you like me to email you the Collected Works of Shroomananda?

Only about 30,000 words, maybe 50K download?

Makes good toilet reading.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 10:48:51 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Rob
Subject: Words of love
Message:
Uh, I could not bear to plough through all of that parroted rubbish. You must have a stronger stomach than me. But if you have any choice paragraphs of the sort which Nigel has posted then please email them to me. Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 18:13:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My Email to Elan Vital
Message:
September 11, 2000

Dear Elan Vital,

As a former follower of Maharaji, and a former 'volunteer' employee of Elan Vital for many years, I feel the need to complain about the false, misleading and inaccurate statements on your website under the title 'FAQ' (frequently asked questions). As both a former devotee of Maharaji, and a former employee of your organization, I am very concerned about these statements.

Although a number of the answers to the rhetorical questions asked on your website are very misleading one, in particular, regarding whether Maharaji ever said he was the incarnation of god, is downright false and can be proven so through documentation in my posession, and in the posession of many others, which was, in fact, published by Elan Vital.

This false statement is exacerbated by a short video clip of Maharaji himself, in which he also appears to lie, although his statements are so disjointed and it is difficult to tell for sure, although it is clear Elan Vital believes the support the false written statement on the website.

Specifically, you website states the following:

DID MAHARAJI EVER SAY HE WAS GOD?

No, Maharaji never at any time claimed to be God....

If this is true, how do you explain the following quotes? The first is found in Elan Vital's publication, 'And It Is Divine,' published in 1974 under Elan Vital's earlier name, Divine Light Mission. The letter is addressed to readers of the magazine, and contains Maharaji's own signature (Sant Ji Maharaj), and states clearly that Maharaji claims to be the manifestation of the 'Lord of Creation.' The letter says, in pertinent part:

Dear Reader,
...
There has never been a time when the Lord of Creation did not manifest Himself in human form, and come to this planet Earth to do away with evil and spread the True Knowledge. But history is a pendulum which is always in swing. There have been so many scriptures, but still people have never been able to understand Him.

Divine Light Mission wants to bring world peace by sharing the Knowledge which is within us by the grace of Almighty Lord. In this magazine, we hope to give information about the peace which lives within us, which Guru Maharaj Ji reveals.

Sant Ji Maharaj

The second is from a speech Maharaji gave in Essen, Germany on August 31, 1975 and is also published in an Elan Vital publication. Again, in this speech Maharaji clearly claims to be 'the Lord in Physical Body.'

And if there has to be devotee, he has to be in a physical form. A devotee has to devote something. Have you understood now? To devote something, he has to be in a physical form. And where is it possible for him to be in physical form? On the earth. And with whom can he be in the physical form? With the Lord, who is in His physical form ! He has to be with the Physical Lord who has come into this physical world with a Physical Body. Understood.

Third is a speech Maharaji gave in Malibu, California on June 11, 1978, again as published in an Elan Vital magazine. In this speech, Maharaji, without any vagueness whatsoever, claims, as Guru Maharaji which website admits he called himself then, claims to be 'the Lord all powerful.'

In this lifetime, we have the opportunity to realize, to be with GURU MAHARAJ JI. Be it not GURU MAHARAJ JI - You know maybe they didn't call him GURU MAHARAJ JI - Maybe they called him Lord, anything to be with that power. To be with that thing. To be not infinite. And yet to be with the infinite. To be here as individuals. And yet to be able to be next to the person who is everything, GURU MAHARAJ JI. The Lord all powerful.....

Finally, the Elan Vital publication, 'The Living Master', published in 1978, contains the following quote from a speech Maharaji gave in Denver, Colorado, on October 12, 1974. In this speech, Maharaji clearly equates 'Guru Maharaj Ji,' with 'God.'

It's been said that Guru Maharaj Ji comes, or God comes into the world, when there is a decline in religion. God comes, Guru Maharaj Ji comes, and helpsthe world.

Given the overwhelming evidence, and there are many other statements made by Maharaji that add to what is stated above, that Maharaji expicitly and implicitly, for many years, claimed to be the incarnation of God, and given that Elan Vital itself, has produced publications over the years promoting Maharaji's claim to be the incarnation of God including those mentioned above, shouldn't Elan Vital remove the false FAQ and video clip from it's website, just in the name of accuracy, fairness and honesty?

Moreover, given than anyone who wants to do so, including the media, prospective aspirants, and anyone else, can easily research this issue and easily prove both that Elan Vital and Maharaji to be lying on the Elan Vital website, isn't it in the credibility interests of both Elan Vital and Maharaji to come clean with the truth, and end the cycle of lying?

Joe Whalen
San Francisco, California

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 03:05:08 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: My Email to Elan Vital/great letter
Message:
Joe-great letter.I have been thinking about doing something very similar,and your letter was great.I like the fact that your tone was professional, rather than angry,but you still got the point across quite clearly.
I think we can all gain by addressing letters to EV in the same manner-I think we can get the point across and cause them great embarrassment without playing into their assertion that anyone who criticizes m is either angry or a wacko..
Great job!
LA-EX
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Date: Fri, Sep 15, 2000 at 00:16:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Thanks, and please send an email...
Message:
There is a place on the Elan Vital website for 'feedback' and one of the categories of 'feedback' is the website. I think if they get more emails (which you should also reprint here), it would have an effect.

I know you are somebody who has been involved in Elan Vital for many years. You as much as anyone, has a right to comment on the dishonesty and revisionism that Elan Vital and Maharaji are engaging in. To me, it's insulting to people who used to be a part of the organization, like they couldn't care less that it insults a period of our lives.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 23:41:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Another GOD quote from Maharaji
Message:
Dear Elan Vital,

In a folluw-up to my email of September 11, 2000, I also wanted to point out that not only did Maharaji directly claim to be the incarnation of God on numerous occasions as recorded in your organization's own publications, he also directly compared himself to Krishna and Jesus Christ, who are widely believed to also have been the incarnation of God. In fact, in the following quote taken from The Divine Times of February 15, 1973, a publication of Elan Vital, he does both. He compares himself to both Jesus and Krishna and also directly claims to be God.

He does this by sayint that Jesus and Krishna revealed knowledge, that God comes to reveal knowledge and that HE is revealing knowledge. The only possible conclusion is that Maharaji is claiming to be the incarnation of God.

So, again, I ask that you remove both the answer to the FAQ, as well as the video clip of Maharaji himself, because they both contain knowingly false statements on this issue.

Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?

I have not come to establish a new religion or sect, but I have come to give you Knowledge of Truth. If you come to me with a guileless heart you will surely receive this most ancient spiritual Knowledge, which, if practised upon, will give us perfect peace of mind.

Jesus gave us this Knowledge, Krishna gave us this Knowledge, but now we must look again for a new Master to show us the light. The sun comes and goes away but we don't look for the light of day which has just gone. We look for the new rising sun. The sun is there, but it rises in a new beautiful way, and we look for that. In the same way, God is the same, but now we look for him to come, in a new way, to give this Knowledge.

Joe Whalen
San Francisco, California

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:52:17 (GMT)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: I jumped on the hook to be pulled in by this line
Message:
And now, when I can no longer believe in the fairytale, I too feel deceived. It still hurts me to let it go, but I am doing it as fast as I can!

I hate organizations that speak for leaders. I want to hear from him. (I also wrote a letter that I asked you to help me send to M last winter. Don't know what happened...probably nothing.)

Thankyou for doing this,Joe.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:38:40 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great letter Joe
Message:
Hi Joe,

Hope all is well over the pond with you and yours.

What a great letter you sent them. It's incredible how they try to pretend the past never happened.

I'm still waiting for a reply to the response I sent them a few weeks ago.

Writing to them is a bit like writing to a nine-year old of average intelligence. They're stuck in the 'Concrete Operational' stage of development, as Piaget described it. Ie, they have difficulty stringing more than two consecutive thoughts together and find it very difficult to answer a question that requires an answer of more than a couple of words.

And don't forget that it's the cults intellectual elite who we're dealing with.

It's not a fair fight really. They should give us a handicap.

Anth the three syllabu silla sylabul slibab syllabu ah fuck it.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:21:43 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: excellent letter Joe! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:32:59 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: bobb@wintelsolutions.com
To: Joe
Subject: Great Letter
Message:
Thanks, this is my one great objection. I always thought GMJ was flawed, but I thought I could trust him. That he loved us. But he is a liar.

Joe, can I forward a copy of your letter to a friend of mine (he is a TV reporter)? Thanks again.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 18:19:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Sure, but correct my typos first.....(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 04:51:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Wonderful letter, Joe
Message:
Couldn't be said better. Let us know (as I know you will) when you get your money back.
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 19:27:35 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Joe
Subject: Great letter Joe...
Message:
It will be interesting to see what happens. My prediction: you will receive no reply (and what could they possibly say in the face of your overwhelming evidence?) but there will follow some subtle tweaking of the FAQ's. EV will find an ambiguous form of words where Maharaji never claimed to be God 'in the western sense of the word'. Maybe some waffle about 'legitimate eastern traditions where it is believed the advanced spiritual Master may be revered in a God-like manner, since it is through the Master's teachings that a student comes to understand the nature of the divine'

Or they'll say 'Sorry, we lied...'

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:58:49 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Great letter Joe...
Message:
Or it might be said that we (and he) believed it was so then but we all grew up, and of course no one would believe it now, ('though some would and still do).

Or they might say sorry but we did not remember..that was a long time ago.

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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 19:04:01 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Bravo!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 19:31:48 (GMT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Great letter! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 17:12:27 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Television Expose
Message:
Next month Dateline will present a stunning expose. The show includes footage of Maharaji, an Indian Guru, being worshiped by thousands of Indian devotees. Hidden cameras document the festival of Hans Jayanti, where the devotess swoon with adoration - beg to kiss his feet. The show details the spiritual “pedigree” passed from teacher to teacher, perhaps through the melleniums. But of course (this is Dateline) something seems a little off. That segment follows the commercial break.

(The show is presented by a Washington Correspondent for ABC News Jack Smith, who contributes to World News Tonight With Peter Jennings, and Nightline and other ABC News programs. See http://204.202.137.111/onair/wnt/html_files/smithj.html Jack is also the neighbor and acquaintance of a former follower.)

When the show returns we again see the Guru. Only this time he is not an Indian Guru, but actually an American playboy jet-setter. His life behind the scenes is vividly described by former associates. Tales of sex, drugs and cruelty are examined. Then comes the climax, when ...

Could be documented drug use, offspring telling all, legal problems - seekers of truth will be rewarded.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 06:44:55 (GMT)
From: DeProGram Anand Ji
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Are You For Real Dateline? Hurray!!!!
Message:
If this is true I will consider this a real victory for ex-premies everywhere. Dateline's investigative journalism would be the absolute kiss of death fro Rawat in this country.
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:18:14 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: Not a hoax
Message:
Sorry, the film is not in the can - but I am forwarding information to Jack Smith (He is my neighbor and I coached his son's team)

I've been waiting for scandal that would really sell soap - but Joe Whalen's letter (thread above this) really hit home. It's not the boozen life of luxury, but the Big Lie. Maharaji is still playing God. Thanks Joe.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:23:40 (GMT)
From: Tim Matheson
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Not a hoax
Message:
i'd be very careful messing with the LORD of the UniVERse-don't fuck with HIm, man! You'll wish you were just a rottin vegeatable--have you ever tried warm beer and tequilllla in the morning--I just want to kiss his stinkin' Lotus FEEts
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:36:34 (GMT)
From: RobertB
Email: None
To: Tim Matheson
Subject: Are you really Eddie Haskel? - sounds like it (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 06:35:16 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: salam_au@iprimus.com.au
To: RobertB
Subject: Television Expose
Message:
Can you tape it and send it to me, I will pay for the costs. My e-mail is on top.
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 21:11:44 (GMT)
From: Yves FKA Boris
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: See the Dateline page
Message:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/DATELINE_front.asp?cp1=1&ta=y

You can put your email address on their mailing list and be reminded of the upcoming freakshow.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 00:03:48 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: Yves FKA Boris
Subject: But Dateline is NBC not ABC - hoax? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:51:01 (GMT)
From: Tonette
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: Television Expose
Message:
Hey I remember him! Jack Smith that is. Who is the neighbor? Is that who gave Jack the idea for the show? Does seem the subject matter is a big step down for Jack judging from his credentials.
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 20:15:00 (GMT)
From: nail polishing lurker
Email: None
To: RobertB
Subject: tape it and send it to Enquirer??? nt
Message:
NT
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Date: Tues, Sep 12, 2000 at 17:08:27 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Interesting link on meditation
Message:
Vipassana meditation clearly explained
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Date: Thurs, Sep 14, 2000 at 02:46:42 (GMT)
From: Suchabanana
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Interesting link on meditation --yes
Message:
In the past, I've given (or recommended) that book to some friends. There are some good sections in it.

For those coming to this site who never received the Kn., then if they are interested in a natural form of meditation [with no strings attached], I would suggest Chapter 5 as a fundamental meditation practice that Buddha himself apparently taught and prescribed.

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 11:23:03 (GMT)
From: TedTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Do you know who Muktananda is?????
Message:
JM...do you know who this guy is?? Swami Muktananda..I am just interested to know somthing about him...aparently he taught the sohung mantra...
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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 15:34:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: TedTheTurtle
Subject: He's another pervert child molesting 'saint' fuck
Message:
read all about it and become enlightened

And check out the whole website if you've the stomach for it...

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Date: Wed, Sep 13, 2000 at 14:40:23 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: TedTheTurtle
Subject: That so-called so-hung 'mantra'
Message:
is merely a way to focus on one's breath.

There is nothing magical in it. There are many other ways to focus 'inside' for those who like it.

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