Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 14:50:55 (GMT)
From: Aug 02, 2000 To: Aug 10, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Daneane -:- My dinner with Hellre -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:17:16 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Your dinner with Hellre -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:42:00 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- Your dinner with Hellre -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 00:18:26 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- yeah ho hum but how was Blue Rodeo?? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:40:39 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- yeah ho hum but how was Blue Rodeo?? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 00:19:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- can't blame you for not wanting to answer me here! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 01:41:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Daneane -:- An Annual thing -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:12:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- take me -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:37:38 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Cute, Selene, the next one's about YOU! -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:39:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Time for you to check into detox, Jim -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:42:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Really, Joey? Why do you say that? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:48:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Other MRC members -- me -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 01:42:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Other MRC members -- not me -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 01:45:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Other MRC members -- I wasn't even asked!!! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 03:32:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Zelda -:- MRC invite for comment was posted here sheesh NT -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 06:52:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- For all I care, Jim, you can stew in it ... -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:54:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- wow, sorry Jim -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:47:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Hi Selene,..... -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 02:53:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- lots of thoughts -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:51:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- I'll drink too that (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 05:06:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- btw Oliver I responded further on AG -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 02:08:51 (GMT)

Elaine -:- Alright, a question - do I dare ? -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 14:52:59 (GMT)
__ Bobby -:- Alright, a question - do I dare ? -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 17:15:30 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Alright, a question - do I dare ? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:14:41 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- Re: Holy Spirit -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 15:56:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Holy Spirit -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 20:07:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Re: Holy Spirit -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:20:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Holy Spirit -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 13:11:16 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Elaine...sorry to have to tell you. -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 08:09:09 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Well, thanks -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 03:03:19 (GMT)
__ bill -:- Alright, a question - do I dare ? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:51:12 (GMT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Enlightenment -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:21:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bill -:- Enlightenmint...Bobby? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 04:47:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Enlightenmint...Bobby? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 15:33:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Bobby -:- I'll try to answer some later..... -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 04:58:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Can't wait,Bobby - thanks -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:25:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Where IS Bobby? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 19:44:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Bobby is OK (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 02:54:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ billbby -:- Entenmints... -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 16:10:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Enlightenmint...Bobby? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 14:15:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Enlightenmint...Bobby? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:36:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Jerry: on design -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:33:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- 'Spiritual' practice -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:12:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- 'Spiritual' practice -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:56:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- How ya doin', Bill -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 00:39:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- How ya doin', Bill -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 04:31:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Enlightenmints -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 15:39:32 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- Dis place done be Spooked -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:22:37 (GMT)
__ Michael -:- Answers from a Christian perspective -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 18:34:16 (GMT)
__ __ Shroomananda -:- How do you know that Jesus didn't teach this -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 00:27:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael -:- How do you know that Jesus didn't teach this -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:34:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- You've studied the subject?!! Then how can you -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- You've studied the subject?!! Then how can you -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:22:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Pressing my optic nerve? I think I'd be able to -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:44:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- U are what they call a 'religious person', Shroom -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 19:22:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Pressing my optic nerve? I think I'd be able to -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 04:17:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- We share the same first name, Reverend, but -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 06:59:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- We share the same first name, Reverend, but -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 14:11:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- It has never been a requirement to ask permission -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 19:05:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- It has never been a requirement to ask permission -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 20:44:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I don't condemn you. I just say that you have no -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:56:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- I don't condemn you. I just say that you have no -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 01:32:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- So what are you saying, Preacher? The Kingdom of -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 02:58:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- So what are you saying, Preacher? The Kingdom of -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 03:53:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- So what are you saying, Preacher? The Kingdom of -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 03:52:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- If Michael is involved in establishing the 'reign' -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:47:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- If Michael is involved in establishing the 'reign' -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 22:00:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- We share the same first name, Reverend, but -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:52:41 (GMT)
__ __ Elaine -:- TY very much :) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael -:- You're welcome. -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:45:27 (GMT)
__ Helen -:- This stuff isn't such a big deal, ELaine -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 16:16:03 (GMT)
__ __ Lurkex -:- Since you ask -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 17:40:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ Elaine -:- Exactly what I wanted, anyone else any ideas?nt -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:41:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 00:20:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:44:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:50:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- historical??? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:22:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 13:01:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:41:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Unitarian -:- Hey PREACHER -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 09:07:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Hey PREACHER -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 14:19:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Unitarian -:- Hey PREACHER.. -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 14:30:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Hey PREACHER.. -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:32:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Hey Monothelite! -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:14:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Unitarin -:- Hey Preacher -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:46:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Another Unitarian (Helen) -:- Hey Preacher -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:21:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Hey Real Unitarian! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:39:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hey Real Unitarian! -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:21:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- Hey Real Unitarian! -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 15:37:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Have you heard of 'Cinderella?' ........ -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:30:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ aquarius -:- Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:22:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Believe what you want, pal, that's why it's called -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:17:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- LOL (nt) -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:35:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- LOL (a little text to follow) -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:36:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- LOL (a little text to follow) -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:37:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- yes! (nt) -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 13:06:54 (GMT)

Rob -:- And this is INTERESTING -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:59:46 (GMT)

Rob -:- Now this is FUNNY -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:42:58 (GMT)

Jerry -:- Full Moon Madness? (ot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:05:43 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Uh, Jerry... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:55:23 (GMT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Moon stats -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:04:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- ...and more important -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:41:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- ...and more important -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:30:32 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Uh, Jerry... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 13:09:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- A likely story :) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 15:18:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- A likely story :) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 16:02:37 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Full Moon Madness? (ot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:21:45 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- hi Jerry -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:14:00 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- You're baaack!! -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:24:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- I show up at interesting times -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 18:50:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- You sure do :) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:49:01 (GMT)

G -:- Dunrite Productions, Inc. -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:16:48 (GMT)
__ G -:- Wahadamar Inc. -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:40:53 (GMT)
__ G -:- Dunrite debt filings (UCCs) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:30:07 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Dunrite debt - detail (long) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:35:04 (GMT)
__ G -:- Lawsuit against Dunrite -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:23:21 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Lawsuit against Dunrite -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:42:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Links to Dunrite web sites -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:28:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- The people, their quotes -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:16:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- United Pathways, Inc. -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 21:01:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Avron Intl. -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 21:49:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- I recall Mort Jonas as a premie.....(nt) -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:16:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- and Another -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:28:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- United Pathways, Inc. and more -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 21:37:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Correction G, re:United Pathways, Inc. and more -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 21:42:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Dettmers - Seva -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:22:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Dettmers - clients page 'cleaned up'? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:18:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Dettmers -also cleaned up his resume -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:07:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- mike dettmers the liar. -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 13:16:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Just one -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 04:17:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Dettmers - Seva -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:55:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Roger's Corp. Shenanigans page -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:17:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- The Best Way to travel -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:06:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- The Best Way to travel -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:39:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Danny -:- The Best Way to travel -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:51:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- My personal policy -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 16:05:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- But just for the record.... -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:41:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deep Stoat -:- But just for the record.... -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 05:30:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- But just for the record.... -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 06:15:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Steep Goat -:- Go Go Gadget Man! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 08:38:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Go Go Gadget Man! -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:23:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Which gadgie got going? -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:40:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Not hard to guess -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 05:09:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Topcat -:- Not hard to guess -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 07:12:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- What there's more? -:- Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 14:29:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Brian -:- I reposted that -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:57:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- And how about this one G -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:09:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Those quotes! -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:37:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G-string -:- Those quotes! -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:51:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ look up his url -:- he's the stupid web designer for M -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:00:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ all about Jossi -:- oh - sorry here it is -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:09:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- What Ray needed was a bex and a good lie down -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 21:08:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bill -:- Those quotes! -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 06:58:59 (GMT)

G -:- Elan Vital - Canada -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 16:29:46 (GMT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Elan Vital - Canada -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 20:11:21 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 'optional' processing fees -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 23:41:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- 'optional' processing fees -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 01:18:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- 'optional' processing fees -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 10:20:37 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:17:16 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: My dinner with Hellre
Message:
So I was in Victoria, homeland of big bad Jim, not too long ago. I think everyone who thinks he is nothing but an asshole windbag should just back off. On the contrary, in meeting Jim, I found him to be a complete fucking bastard.

We ate at this redish orange shack off the side of the highway. Jim was a little late, and maybe it was sheer coincidence, but previously sunny skies dimmed and dark clouds loomed as he drove up in his flourescent green '57 Chevy pick-up truck. Despite his humped back and club foot, he seemed to be quite agile, as he walked up sporting the latest in dark foreboding gowns with hood. In pristine, polite manner, however, he pulled his hood back upon entering the restaurant. His horns were barely noticable under his long flowing black hair.

After I paid a small purely voluntary gratitude fee, Jim was quite talkative so long as I remained exactly six feet away from him. I didn't mind at all giving him my mother's maiden last name, social security number and pink slip to my truck.

So how was Jim different in person, than on the Forum? Well, one doesn't have to witness that drooling thing he has going or bubbles of spittle that fly off when he talks passionately of a topic. I did have to get used to ending all my comments with, 'my dark master'. Other than that...he's pretty much the same.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:42:00 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: theAntiMaharaji.org
To: Daneane
Subject: Your dinner with Hellre
Message:
Did he do that ceremony of ours (I know we don't usually talk about this) where he took that half-naked garlanded Lord photo and smear it with blood and garlic and set it alight, waving it over the salad course, and then, when the appetizers arrived...oh, never mind. You can e-mail me.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 00:18:26 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Your dinner with Hellre
Message:
Weeelll, there was garlic involved.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:40:39 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: yeah ho hum but how was Blue Rodeo??
Message:
Did you go?
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 00:19:29 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yeah ho hum but how was Blue Rodeo??
Message:
I'll send you an E on that.
-dg
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 01:41:24 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: can't blame you for not wanting to answer me here!
Message:
OUCH!
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:12:42 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: An Annual thing
Message:
You know, this week last year I went to my first video presentation. Maybe I should take in one this week just for old times sake. Do you think they'd mind if I brought along a six pack? One year and not a single premie left in my life. As Greg Keelor of Blue Rodeo says, 'Keep looking up!'
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:37:38 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: take me
Message:
I'm good at backstage. No not from groupie experience. My previous carreer was in stage hand tech. And I love the band.
And Jim would LOVE to meet me. uh well, I could always rent a hotel room for that part :)
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:39:41 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Cute, Selene, the next one's about YOU!
Message:
Bitch
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:42:57 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Time for you to check into detox, Jim
Message:
Asshole
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:48:57 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Really, Joey? Why do you say that?
Message:
Joey,

Is there a particualr substance you think I need to rid my system of? What 's that? And what's your reason for thinking that? I'm all ears, Joey. Put up or shut up.

But, then, as the only 'confessed' member of MRC I guess I'm a particularly suspicious person to you anyway, right?

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 01:42:39 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Other MRC members -- me
Message:
In a thread above, Joe says that he was the spokesperson for the MRC. I am another member of the MRC crew -- proudly.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 01:45:28 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Marianne
Subject: Other MRC members -- not me
Message:
I wouldn't join any club that would have me as a member!
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 03:32:01 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Other MRC members -- I wasn't even asked!!!
Message:
OK I'm kidding.

But I'd be more than happy to proof/edit any new attempt, it's what I do after all. For a fee, of course. Well, what is this, some kind of charity?:)

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 06:52:52 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: Rob et all
Subject: MRC invite for comment was posted here sheesh NT
Message:
NT
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:54:17 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: For all I care, Jim, you can stew in it ...
Message:
Man, are you sick
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:47:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: wow, sorry Jim
Message:
really. I , well. sorry.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 02:53:57 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hi Selene,.....
Message:
Is your holiday over. Or did you take a laptop?
Either way how was it?
BTW, there's a thread started above by Jim on psychiatrists. Maybe you have something to add. I'd love to see a few memorys of people with a mental illness on how they were treated in the cult. Any thoughts on that?
Oliver 'off to get his blood tested'
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:51:04 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: lots of thoughts
Message:
I emailed a few of my thoughts to Jim. don't want to contribute to the above thread though.

I am sure you can relate to how being in a precarious balance and being blasted as a bitch one day is enough for one in a fragile place. enough for quite a while actually.

one thought is dominant. - those who know nothing first hand either by going through it or by being close to it with a loved one for an extended long term time don't really know. Book learning doesn't cut it.
so.......
over and out out out out out....

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 05:06:05 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: I'll drink too that (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 02:08:51 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: btw Oliver I responded further on AG
Message:
I have had to live with dysphoric mania for years.

My opinions are better suited to AG I feel. Anyway I feel safer posting them there. Hope you can respond to me there. Thanks.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 14:52:59 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Alright, a question - do I dare ?
Message:
I've wanted to ask this for a long time. I have no one in my real life to ask - a shame.
Having nothing to do with Maharaji -I am, however, asking this group bec of past exp w/ Eastern thought and some Biblical background - and some here are still interested in spirituality and all, here goes...

What is this Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost - that Christ said he was going to give or something for 'comfort' or as a 'comforter'.

What is this Word? (Same or diff from Holy Name,SatNam?) what does it have to do with chakras and kundalini? Holy Spirit?

Are all of them related or the same.

What was JC talking about when he said -'Hallowed be thy name?' - did he show those people? How come no one seems to know what it is, but we're not supposed to take it in 'vain'??

What's this 'speaking in tongues'?

Can any of this be related to Eastern thought/beliefs ?

I wish I didn't have to ask you all - bec of sarcasm - but, it's a start---any books (or links) that would help that you know of.

This Holy Spirit thing is a mystery to me - I want to understand it - and feel it. Is it Grace from God ? I love that.

Elaine

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 17:15:30 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Alright, a question - do I dare ?
Message:
Your questions use a lot of the Christian phrasings. I'm now strongly a Buddhist. However, I see Jesus as a Buddha and see much of the essence of what he says as relatable and similar to the Buddhist teachings. He was there for me through my cancer.

I've made the spiritual quest my vocation and career. However, I'm just a person like anyone else so I don't have any 'real answers'. What I practice works for me. Actually, in that I truly believe all is relatively real, I don't think anyone has any 'real answers'. Here is what I come up with in response to these points.

What is this Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost - that Christ said he was going to give or something for 'comfort' or as a 'comforter'.

As I see it the Holy Spirit would be the experience of entering into an experience of 'spirit' as a comforter. I think lots of people have experienced this, sometimes on a frequent basis. Perhaps a quality of one's enlightenment can be a direct connection with this experience most all the time. An even stronger quality of enlightenment is to be that experience of 'comforter' to for others.

What is this Word? (Same or diff from Holy Name,SatNam?) what does it have to do with chakras and kundalini? Holy Spirit?

Are all of them related or the same.

Of course we know that the technique of 'Word', a kind of mantra as it appears, was given in knowledge sessions and bandied about, at least in the seventies, as the Supreme Connection to God. I've read many discussions of this word-breath-mantra over the years.
Some call the 'word' just a technique for relaxation, some have seen it as an all-important connection.

With spirit one can be very detached or very involved or both at the same time. One can enter into states of deep relaxation, or become passionately involved with dealing with the strongest of forces, or again, experience both at the same time. I see the spiritual world as vast and just as real as anything. On the other hand it's all 'empty', a concept very much intrinsic to Buddhism. All form, material as well as spiritual, is very dreamlike.

There are many ways available to connect with forms of spirit, some quite powerful and effective. Personally, the worlds of 'kundalini' energy have been very important for me. I entered spontaneously into these states more than 30 years ago and over the years have had frequent connections. It's taken me decades to work effectively and progressively with these powerful energies. Actually, after cancer and Tantric Buddhism, I am for the first time in my life, deeply experiencing the beauty and preciousness of my human form.

What was JC talking about when he said -'Hallowed be thy name?' - did he show those people? How come no one seems to know what it is, but we're not supposed to take it in 'vain'??

Maybe Jesus was just speaking of his deeply devotional experience of 'God'. As far as taking God's name in vain, it seems that he speaks of setting up the space in one's head of 'sacred ground', that is cultivating an internal attitude of the sacred, calling in the holy spirit if you will. Prayer.

What's this 'speaking in tongues'?

Don't really know. Actually people do go into all sorts of altered states. The value of these states I think boils down to how these states affect one's ability to be a 'good person'.

Can any of this be related to Eastern thought/beliefs ?

Sure. One important common ground between East and West is the emphasis becoming a good person, that is, embodying love and compassion. Another quality, perhaps primary major component of spiritual experience, is acquiring wisdom. Acquiring wisdom can be spoken of as cultivation of non-ordinary view.

At this stage of my life I'm finding meditations on emptiness most helpful. Emptiness is vast and profound like the ocean.

I wish I didn't have to ask you all - bec of sarcasm - but, it's a start---any books (or links) that would help that you know of.

There are lots of books I could recommend, depending on what your real focus is.

I recently finished reading the best book I've read in many years. Circling the Sacred Mountain by Robert Thurman and Tad Wise. Thurman is an expert at elucidating the Tibetan Buddhist teachings. He uses very colorful and powerful, sometimes 'psychedelic' vocabulary particularly when speaking of the Tantras.

This Holy Spirit thing is a mystery to me - I want to understand it - and feel it. Is it Grace from God ? I love that.

I recommend dealing with what shows up in your life, particularly the rough stuff. The grace and connection often comes through the difficulty. Here's a link to a poem by Rumi that speaks to this:

The Question

Love,

Bobby

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:14:41 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Alright, a question - do I dare ?
Message:
This Holy Spirit thing is a mystery to me - I want to understand it - and feel it. Is it Grace from God ? I love that.

Elaine, let me get this straight. You're a premie, have been for decades, and you STILL don't know what the 'Holy Spirit' is? You should be telling us, not asking us. What happenned?

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 15:56:10 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Holy Spirit
Message:
Gee Jerry,
I kinda hate getting engaged with you again - but, why would I or any premie know about the Holy Spirit. In all my days (around Kn) Holy Spirit was never mentioned.
It's a Jesus thing - since he said he was going to give a 'comforter'. I just wondered how it related to kundalini and grace,chakras - stuff like that.
It seems to me that the sudden Grace I might feel at times could be what Jesus spoke of as Holy Spirit.And I'm still wondering.

And this SatNam (I use this term to intentionally steer away from references of M, btw- I don't want or need to talk about M)
is it this breath (the sound) and we are not supposed to 'take it in vain'? as in --don't take this life for granted??

The 'feeling' of incredible warmth and almost a 'hum' in my body I am confused about ---is that The Word or SatNam or Primordial Vibration ----or a wonderful experience of my chakras being open. I know when I feel it - it is the ONLY thing I care about- all troubles externally are small when I feel it. - And I have a 'Moonie' smile on my face I can't wipe off.

I don't think that is the 'Holy Spirit'. But it IS such a 'comfort' ---- so maybe it is.

I always thought that 'hum' vibrating in me was Holy Name( the vibration behind the breath - but I'm steering away from relating things to M words.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 20:07:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Re: Holy Spirit
Message:
Are you lost, little girl? Would you like me to point you toward the master so you can ask him these most important questions? Seriously, if M is the master, what are you asking us for? Duh.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:20:43 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Holy Spirit
Message:
What an arrogant little prick you are.
'Duh' yourself.Do you even think before you post?
Don't even answer - I'm done with you --as before.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 13:11:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Re: Holy Spirit
Message:
What about you, Elaine? How much did YOU think about it before you, so innocently, started asking for correlations between 'holy spirits', 'comforters', 'kundalinis', 'chakras', and so on, not once considering that all of it is ancient superstitions? Well, consider it. That's all it is. But somehow, I doubt that fact will make so much as a dent in your little new age mind. Keep dreaming, Elaine. Have fun in lah-lah land. I think you're doomed to remain there for all your days. Say hello to the wizard for me.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 08:09:09 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Elaine...sorry to have to tell you.
Message:
Hi Elaine,

Sureley someone should have told you by now, all these characters like Christ, Buddha, Odin, Thor, Shiva, and Superman are just mythological figures. They help us have a picture of the world until we grow up. Like Santa Claus...that sort of thing.

Sorry to be the one to break the news

Anth mythed the point

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 03:03:19 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Well, thanks
Message:
to all that tried to answer seriously.

Over and out

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:51:12 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Alright, a question - do I dare ?
Message:
Elaine, Try and disassociate the breath from the 'eastern thought/beliefs'.

Eastern thought/belefs in the guru,meditation,buddhist world clearly state the case that there is no self aware part of conciousness that is not in a body, or in the 'wheel' temporarily.

There was no self concious thing until man. The eastern brilliant thinking doesnt let us know if any animals were self concious first and so they would qualify as the first self aware thingees in creation.

There is a 'oneness', but it is not self aware.
What that has to do with the breath is beyond me.
Their analysis of life is immature to say the least.

The rawat family...well, at least our lords oldest brother, thinks that you use the breath to concentrate on and thereby are saved from 'thinking too much'.
our lord thinks that he can make a living trading in false illusions about the next persons breath.....so far he has made millions lying and guessing about the breath.
For all the concentrating on it that his family and instructors did...you would expect to see some results!
But clearly, it does nothing. You are left in this life to choose and follow your dreams and your chosen attitudes.

I say chose to feel the breath (smokers do!), because it is there. Dont link anything to it or think it is more special than your blood moving or the way your muscles feel when you move or the pleasures of the small parts of your tongue that taste things. Or small pieces of flesh on other more private spots that also feel pleasurable. Some people worship THAT as you know.

If you want to think about god, well, if he is real, he wont mind if you try to love life and all those around you and if you want to really make the most of all you have got, that would be thanks enough. So, if you love life, you have the god issue handled and what is so bad about having an invisible 'friend' that you talk to when you feel a need for that.

Human nature reveals that those that think it is a unconcious 'oneness' are missing lots of evidence that states otherwise.

If it was an unconcious oneness, at least ONE person would have a completely successful life.
At least ONE person would have a so-called 'experience of thier own divinity' and STAY in that state.
At least ONE person would be able to avoid problems in his life.

(that is just 3 things)

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:21:25 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Enlightenment
Message:
Interesting post, Bill, although I have a quibble with your final three points. Well, numbers one and three, anyway. Regarding number two, it is possible that many people have become aware -- and stayed aware -- of their own divinity. But we have to take or leave their testimony on this, won't we. It's a subjective matter, and, as we know, many obvious charlatans have made this claim.

But as to numbers one and three: Life, as lived by all of us, including the enlightened ones, is an amusement park (or fear park, right?) whose primary features are Hazard and Opportunity. No one gets to live life free of pain and love and death and grief and joy.

Becoming enlightened is not a solution to life's problems...though as premies, that's what we thought it should be. Awakening to truth does not insure success or even happiness! It's just a natural outcome of being open to life as is: paying attention.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 04:47:19 (GMT)
From: Bill
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Enlightenmint...Bobby?
Message:
Hi Gregg,
Well, lucky for us we can look at the person making claims that they are having a constant spiritual experience and see the evidence that they are mistaken. The evidence is there and so we are not in the position of having to take thier testimony or leave it. That would be the case if we couldnt identify what kind of evidence is there in all cases. I actually dont know what 'it is a subjective matter' means but I think it means that...I have no way to judge it.
Eastern thinking is based on that assumption but it is in error and in fact there are ways to judge. Otherwise, I would still be uneasy about my stepping away from a guru who claims still to be more informed and experienced in the 'oneness' and more powerful.

People might get an idea or concept and think that they have attained a handle on thier own 'divinity'. But, they are locked tight and bound up in human nature and any temporary disconnect from it that they get, is just temporary and I mean real temporary. Copping an attitude and a stance and a delusion does not qualify as 'becoming aware....and staying aware, of thier own divinity'.
We could maybe agree to accept that terminology if it had a meaning that was something other than what it is presently used for.
Like GAY means something different than it did when Senator John Kennedy was single and he was called a gay senator.
People are trapped in a hand me down misperception of the nature of reality here and it wastes peoples lives pursueing the attainment of 'higher states of being' when no one is allowed to actually do that here. If it was a unconcious oneness, and as they say, that it is everything yet unaware of part of itself that has separated into 'us' and although WE are concious, it is not and it doesnt know that part of itself somehow broke off and declared itself independent and somehow became concious when the thing we broke off from and came from is not!

In addition, a 'wheel' just somehow showed up out of nowhere and deals out karma for no particular reason. The oneness didnt request any part of this whole deal and certainly didnt request
karmic hoops for these renegade parts of itself (that it was/is not aware of) to jump through and prizes and sufferings to be awarded based on 'attainment'.

And for no apparent reason, we have to somehow be in a no karma, nondesireous state to go back into the unconcious 'oneness' to escape the 'suffering' of being here WITH conciousness.

Of course the karma wheel, with no directive from the unconcious oneness, but purely on it's own self created notion, decided to create 4 castes of people and dump it on the only part of the world where people even gave the wheel some respect.

Clearly, this all makes complete sense. All those who doubt that this is the way reality is, are just caught up in an illusion and dont know that the illusion of 'selfhood' is the thing keeping them from realizing that which they truly are, the everything, the oneness, the guru.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 15:33:27 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Bill
Subject: Enlightenmint...Bobby?
Message:
Funny you should put 'Bobby' in the headline --that was actually who I was hoping might respond alittle to my ques. I wanted to ask him,but hesitated,since he's not around so much.

Thanks

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 04:58:21 (GMT)
From: Bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: Elaine
Subject: I'll try to answer some later.....
Message:
....just got back from a trip camping with my kids in a beautiful location in Northern Pennsylvania. Spent some time with Robyn too! Robyn is doing well.

So I check into the forum briefly and am surprised to see my name come up again in the headers. Bill's name is involved, and Elaine, Stonor and others with metaphysical discussion. Just now I don't know what to 'answer' but I'll add my two cents to the discussion tomorrow. Right now I'm tired and am going to sleep.

G'night!

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 16:25:02 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Bobby
Subject: Can't wait,Bobby - thanks
Message:
Bobby-
I hate to subject you to any sarcasms here,tho.
But, boy, would I love some clarity or theories on the relationships with all I spoke of above.
SatNam,the Word, Prim. Vibration,Holy Spririt/Ghost and grace,Kundalini,chakras...hung so/So-hum...

Thank you very much,
Elaine

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 19:44:31 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Where IS Bobby?
Message:
Hi Elaine,

I don't even want to take a stab at your questions, but to me it all comes down to metaphors that are used to convey what may well have been primarily oral teachings.

As you mentioned that you wanted to get in touch with Bobby, I just tried his website, but it would not connect - 'unable to locate server'. Perhaps another try another time will do it, and I include it for you here. At the same time, I'd like to ask if anyone knows if something else might be happening, and how Elaine or anyone else could get in touch with him.

Bobby's website?

Good luck,

Stonor

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 02:54:54 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Bobby is OK (nt)
Message:
HI Stonor - my lips are sealed otherwise :).
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 16:10:32 (GMT)
From: billbby
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Entenmints...
Message:
Hi Elaine,
Bobby is a deep guy with a lot of time spent exploring the nature of life.
He interacts with relates to life directly but he has one foot in one belief and one foot actually in another.

He believes that there is an unconcious oneness, and that the relationships he has inside him are with beings that occupy spots in the after death wheel of life.

Can you tell me what I mean about his two feet?
Or have Katie email him and he can answer.
I definately respect the guy. He is serious in his looking at life.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 14:15:50 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Bill
Subject: Enlightenmint...Bobby?
Message:
Hi Bill.

You say that it is possible for one of us to know if another is enlightened or not. How? A halo? A perpetual Mona Lisa smile? I'm not saying you should take someone's word for it...and, as a matter of fact, if someone brags about their inner attainments, they could be your typical power-hungry guru.

Spiritual awakening might make itself known to some extent in some external forms...peace, congruence in words/action, loving kindness...these might be seen in an enlightened person.. But, ultimately, it IS subjective, like emotions are. I could tell you I love you, and smile, and do things for you, and write love songs for you...but am I really experiencing love inside or am I actually after your money or your body? Who knows? I do! You don't.

Two more responses. First, you liken enlightenment to a (temporary) 'disconnect' from human nature. No! It's a flowering of human nature. It's becoming who we are designed to become. Premies and zealots of all stripes disconnect from who they really are to experience devotional righteous bliss, but that has nothing to do with genuine spiritual awakening.

Lastly...oh never mind, I don't want to debate karma on this ex-premie site...but just to say that people debase and complicate spiritual ideas routinely, and I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about the Indian Hindus, linking karma to caste, for example.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 22:36:03 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Enlightenmint...Bobby?
Message:
Two more responses. First, you liken enlightenment to a (temporary) 'disconnect' from human nature. No! It's a flowering of human nature. It's becoming who we are designed to become.

Gregg, this concept about being 'designed' for something. What evidence exists for it other than it's a nice thought? Of course, if you prefer to believe in design, that's your perogative, but is there REALLY such a thing? The reason I ask is because if we want to know the truth, we have to be aware of what we assume it already is, such as a universe by design, something for which no evidence exists.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:33:11 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerry: on design
Message:
When Christians deride evolution, they often point to a man-made object and say 'If this is the product of an intelligent designer (man), then we, who are so much more complicated, are surely the product of an even more wonderful Designer.'

That's not the kind of designer I mean. In fact, I don't believe in a Designer. We have come to be who we are through sexual selection/evolution/environment, etc. But one can still say we are designed for tool-making, language, etc. And some, like Frederick Turner, say that we are designed for making and appreciating beauty.

That said, it is still a big assumption, for which I have nothing but subjective evidence (which is really no evidence at all in the strict meaning of the word) for believing that we are designed for spiritual evolution.

It just feels to me like spiritual practice makes the bodymind run clearer, more efficiently, happier, and more lovingly. (I should say 'authentic spiritual practice' to distinguish it from cultish pseudo-Bhakti mass hysteria as spiritual practice.)

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:12:24 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: 'Spiritual' practice
Message:
It just feels to me like spiritual practice makes the bodymind run clearer, more efficiently, happier, and more lovingly. (I should say 'authentic spiritual practice' to distinguish it from cultish pseudo-Bhakti mass hysteria as spiritual practice.)

I've been thinking about this, Gregg. I think about it a lot. To me, I find my clearest moments are ones of consciousness, just being present in the moment and dealing with that, but I don't consider that 'spiritual'. To me, spiritual is getting caught up in ideas about God, and the nature of man's soul. I think you lose consciousness when you do this, because you're no longer conscious of reality but lost in imaginings about what reality is. If you really believe that natural selection is the only designer behind existence, you'd understand what I'm saying. There is no 'spiritual' practice. There's just means of heightening awareness, sharpening it, so it's focused in the now, in reality. And all that's really required for that is just stopping to smell the coffee. Nothing to it, really.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 21:56:30 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: 'Spiritual' practice
Message:
And then with that sharpened forcus we can look at, well, what interests me a lot is not the designer issue (although that is a good one), but what the set up we have here tells us.
What the present make up of human nature reveals.
Which seems to loop back to the designer issue.
gotta go.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 00:39:53 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: How ya doin', Bill
Message:
I'll tell you, Bill, in my clearest moments, it's all real simple. This... is... it. No design, just a brilliant accident that came about by chance. It's just difficult, at times, to hold onto that understanding because, 1) I've lived a life of magical thinking, for the most part 2) I'm surrounded by new age dweebs. It's tough not to get sucked back into it, that being the case. But I'm getting better, I think. I hope.

See ya around, Bill. Always a pleasure.

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 04:31:38 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: How ya doin', Bill
Message:
My head is not into the other thread subject at 1230am, but when you mentioned 'I am getting better, I think I hope' My reaction was, 'hmm, I cant imagine where Jerry needs to improve' and I read your posts. Just thought I would mention my reaction:)

I am off to boy scout camp for 2 days. My turn to be one of the.....chaperones, or whatever the word would be. so, read you later.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 15:39:32 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Enlightenmints
Message:
Hi Gregg,
Dont fergit, the underlying issue for me is the unsupportable theory which the buddhist,guru,meditation and other groups base thier whole belief system on. That the reality is that there is a unconcious oneness napping alongside us.

When you start using terms like 'spiritual awakening' and tie that with improving behaviours, well, we are talking about something else then. That is fine with me, I'll go along with that, but is it spiritual awakening if you are not waking up to the actual nature of the so-called great spirit?
If a person is waking up to thier capacity to change in positive directions, that is an awakening of sorts, you use the word enlightenment to mean 'a flowering of human nature'. I prefer your definition, but people like the rawat family, and the dalilama, and guru's and buddhist monks and others, dress up in nice western wording but clearly they think reality is that there is no 'self' and the 'oneness' is unconcious.

It is rawat's and the others primary support concept. They base thier logics on it. Being able to see it and debunk it is essential.

The absurd notions about dressing up prem rawat in a more honest appearing mala, looking for him to somehow 'address' the past so that 'ex's' can get some peace on this issue, ignores his core delusion about life. I dont care to clear this up for him, but his message is rotten and faulty to the core and there is no way to fancy it up to make it any less unsound.

Hey, accepting reality and growing up in this madhouse of ideas
is no breeze, but lets not paper over the core basic reality and continue to play pretend just because siddartha (the so called buddha) had a misunderstanding and it caught on and gained a following.

Gregg, you know I am ranting and I am not actually talking just to you, but to the whole issue. I know you have wide views.
I agree with your points. Only this issue of subjectivness and judgeing is where I veer off.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:22:37 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Dis place done be Spooked
Message:
Elaine, there ain't no such thing as ghosts. Didn't yo mama tell you that? Now go get some fresh air, girl.
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 18:34:16 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Answers from a Christian perspective
Message:
In orthodox Christian belief, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Trinity. The Holy Spirit, or Sanctifier, is the power by which the Father, or Creator, set creation into motion. Jesus said that he would send the Holy Spirit, or Paraclete, as a comforter and advocate so that the disciples and followers of the Way would not be alone.
In the Gospel of John, there is reference to the Word, or Logos in Greek, which is the mind of God, and is also associated with the second person of the Trinity, the Son, or Redeemer. The Word is not the same as the phrase used in the Lord's Prayer. The name of the God of Israel is Holy and not to be spoken, so different words are used instead.
Speaking in tongues is a reference to the Pentecost event or the descent of the Holy Spirit on the Twelve. They spoke languages they did not understand but those around them understood what they were saying. This was a reversal of the story of the Tower of Babel where no one understood each other. Speaking in tongues also is a reference to glossolalia, or the tongues of ecstacy which is a practice in Pentecostal churches in when the Holy Spirit is supposed to speak through someone although they do not know what they are saying. They are supposed to be speaking in an unknown language but linguists have studied glossolalia and do not consider these sounds to be actual language.

I do not believe that there is any connection between Christianity or what Jesus taught and M's so-called Knowledge. Jesus did not teach 'this knowledge.'

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 00:27:25 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: How do you know that Jesus didn't teach this
Message:
Knowledge? Are you 2000 years old? How can you make a statement like that? You've never eaten a mango but you can say for a certainty that it's not like a papaya? Get real, pal! Admit it, you don't know, do you?
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:34:56 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: How do you know that Jesus didn't teach this
Message:
In my yard are five mango trees with at least three different kinds of mangos (and the season is just now ending for my trees); I also eat papaya and maracuya all the time. The availability of tropical fruit here is irrelevant to the discussion.
Now, I have read the extra-canonical sources, and I have read the Christian scriptures in the original Greek. You may try to take a handful of verses from the Christian scriptures to prove your point, but you may just as well look for all the references to light, music, vibration and nectar in People magazine to prove that your favorite pop-culture hero teaches Knowledge. I have actually studied the subject, can you say that?
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:04:33 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: You've studied the subject?!! Then how can you
Message:
make such an asinine remark like 'Jesus never taught this Knowledge'? I don't care how many 'extra' canonical sources you've studied. You never heard Jesus speak, did you? You don't even know what he really looked like, do you? You never received his Knowledge either, right? I've probably read more about Jesus than anyone I know including Essene sources, Gnostic sources, Dead Sea Scrolls sources, metaphysical sources and just about every other source you could name but I would never make such a stupid remark like you just made. I have no idea if Maharaji's Knowledge is the same as what Jesus gave. But I also have no idea if it is not the same. I don't know. Either is possible but I guess the only one who does know is the one who created both Jesus and Maharaji. It is the same Creator, don't you think? When I read that Jesus said that God is spirit and He seeks those to worship Him in spirit and in truth, I enjoy that. It doesn't conflict with what I've heard Maharaji say. As a matter of fact, I had no idea what spirit was before Knowledge. But I've seen that inner dancing light/spirit within me and I think it could be the same light that Jesus gave out. But I never saw that light before Knowledge. And I have a copy of the gospels translated from the original Greek by a Greek scholar. What's your experience of Jesus now that you've renounced Maharaji? Do you see light within you now that you're a devotee of Christ?
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:22:02 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: You've studied the subject?!! Then how can you
Message:
The only light I saw from practicing 'Knowledge' was the physiological reaction when pressing my optic nerve, just like you see. I admit it, you don't. Jesus didn't teach your meditation technique. There are no Essence sources on Jesus, you have been misled, unless you define the Teacher of Righteousness as Jesus, but that is a connection you are making and not one made by the Essenes. Tell me all about the Dead Sea Scroll sources on Jesus, pal; the Scrolls have only been recently translated and I have my doubts that you really keep so current on such sources. As far as metaphysical sources are concerned, I put no stock in such sources and I have yet to meet any real theological scholar who does. I learned Greek from a Greek scholar and read the Greek text on my own. Your connections between Jesus and Maharaji are feeble at best.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:44:11 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Pressing my optic nerve? I think I'd be able to
Message:
tell the difference between light I see by pressing my optic nerve and the Divine Light as described in the Scriptures. Besides, I've seen that inner light when I wasn't pressing my optic nerve while I'm doing one of the other techniques or even just while my eyes were closed. But never before I received Knowledge. Of course you sound like such an expert on Jesus and the Divinity within that I guess you may be right. But I'll stick with Maharaji and continue to read the Bible and other scriptures for inspiration including 'The Wondrous Child' section of my copy of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Is it about Christ or Maharaji? I don't know. But I sure love inspiration no matter what source it comes from. I do know that one past Master said that one shouldn't preach about God unless one had a direct experience of Him and He had given you His command to preach about Him. Have you had a direct experience of God, Michael? And if so, did He tell you to preach about Him? If so, let me know and I might be more receptive to your illogical statements. You know, like when you said that the Knowledge that Jesus gave is not the same Knowledge as Maharaji's.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 19:22:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: U are what they call a 'religious person', Shroom
Message:
Shroom,

I've got the image of you sitting there reading your bible, not knowing if it's about Maharaji or Jesus but who the fuck cares anyway? It's your bible, isn't it? It can be about anyone you goddam say it is. Right?

You're a religious person, Shroom. You're not the only one. You just happen to express your faith inthe Maharaji cult. Nothing so bad about that, I guess.

Naw, I can't say that. It's terrible, fella. Sorry.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 04:17:51 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Pressing my optic nerve? I think I'd be able to
Message:
Your post is a riot!!!!

Well, I have enough experience of what I would call God not to refer to the Deity using masculine pronouns. I don't subscribe to the Past Perfect Master stuff, so your arguement does not impress nor sway me. Oh, yes, I preach every Sunday and Wednesday.

Look, it is a mistake for you to come here and try to bring us all back to M. Why not come clean; tell us your real name, where you live, what you do when not spouting stuff about free gifts, and admit that you come here as there is no where else where one can actually discuss your 'Master.' There is no honest conversation over at ELK.

The Rev. Michael Dresbach
Paraíso, República de Panamá
Sacerdote en la Iglesia Episcopal.

There, I did it; it's easy! Your turn, mushroom person.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 06:59:45 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: We share the same first name, Reverend, but
Message:
that's about all. And I'm not about to tell you much more about myself at this point, if that's OK with you. I've seen too much vitriol and rage on this site to invite any personal attacks. The forum administrator has my real name and Email address. So you are a preacher. Never seen God. Don't believe in past Masters (except Jesus?) and yet you have the audacity to say that Jesus never gave the same Knowledge as Maharaji. I know you never received Knowledge from Jesus. After all, he came 2000 years before you were born. Did you receive Knowledge from Maharaji? If so, why? You 'knew' Jesus before you met Maharaji, didn't you? If you are an 'ex' premie, why didn't you immediately denounce him after your Knowledge session? You seem so sure that Jesus' Knowledge was not what you received from Maharaji. How long did it take you to discover that Maharaji's Knowledge was not like Christ's Knowledge? Why don't you post a transcript of one of your 'sermons' here? I'm sure the 'ex' premies would be a most receptive audience. Maybe you could even bring one or two back to the arms of Jesus. What's heaven like, Reverend? Are there pearly gates? Streets of gold? You seem to think that you know God and Jesus so well. Of course, you've never seen or heard from either of them, have you? Can the blind lead the blind, Reverend, and still avoid the ditch? I'll ask you again. What makes you an expert about God and Jesus? Faith? Do you have faith, Reverend? Because it's written? Get real. When you've seen God and gotten his permission to preach about Him, then you might have some credibility. Until then, you're just another fool who thinks he's going to heaven AFTER he leaves his body. Pretty dry. And pretty pathetic. Back to you, Rev!
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 14:11:24 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: We share the same first name, Reverend, but
Message:
Well, we have established that you are a bit of a coward; you come here and attack under a false name, but that is to be expected.
Now, I find your 'asking God for permission to preach' thing quite humorous, and it has never been a requirement anywhere.

Let's examine your defense(?) regarding 'Knowledge.' We are using the word Knowledge to describe the four meditation techniques taught by M and his Mahatmas or Instructors or Lackeys or what ever they are called now. There is no where in any of the canonical Christian scriptures (the New Testament) where Jesus teaches these techniques. There is no where in the extra-canonical scriptures where Jesus teaches these techniques. There is only the claim of M's group that Jesus taught 'Knowledge.' Jesus preached the Good News (evangelon) of forgiveness of sins and the coming of the Reign of God, a world which is as God planned it; a world without poverty, sickness, racism, sexism, etc.
Since Jesus didn't teach any so-called knowledge (unless you use Gnostic sources, but the Gnostics were around before the Way and were really more of a Persian sect than a Christian group) I can safely say that M's knowledge is not Jesus's knowledge. Shall I repeat that? I doesn't matter if I was around 2000 years ago, since Jesus did not teach a 'knowledge' I can know that M's knowledge is not what Jesus taught, since Jesus taught the Good News of forgiveness of sins and the coming of the Reign of God.

As far as heaven is concerned, I don't preach on that as it is not one of my interests. I preach on the Reign of God.

Here endeth the Lesson.
Thanks be to God.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 19:05:49 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: It has never been a requirement to ask permission
Message:
of God to preach about Him. OK. But why should anyone believe you then? Faith? Because it's written? Because you have an MA in Theology? To me, you have zero credibility without true realization. And you still don't know if Jesus taught Knowledge, do you? Why did he say that the Kingdom of God is within? Why did he say that if thine eye be single thy whole body will be full of light? Why did he say that God is spirit and he seeks those to worship him in spirit and truth? And the Gnostics used to make fun of the early Christines for their 'blind' faith. They had pictures of a donkey hanging upside down on the cross. And by the way, regarding your post down below to Unitarian about Constantine. I don't know about him, but Justinian had almost all of the references to reincarnation stricken from the bible in the sixth century. Who knows what else was taken out or changed? Also, I've heard that the 4 techniques of Knowledge are depicted in the catacombs by the early Christians. You have no authority to talk about Jesus and you definately have no way of knowing whether Maharaji is teaching the same Knowledge that Jesus taught. To me, you're just a text torturer. Get some real spiritual experience and true seekers might believe you. Not because of your words but for the feeling behind the words. Blind faith is simply the tool of a fool.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 20:44:13 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: It has never been a requirement to ask permission
Message:
Quote sources regarding Justinian. You have 'heard' about references in the catacombs, let's have some proof. Jesus said 'the Kingdom of God is among you' which is totally different that 'within you.' 'If your eye be single...' what the heck do you think that means? Actually, recent translations read 'If your eye is healthy, your body will be filled with light.'
You have no idea of my spiritual experiences, but you condemn me. If people agree with you, they are true seekers, yet if they actually do know what they talk about, they are lost and leading others astray? Of course God is spirit, that's why I don't use male pronouns in reference to God. What do you think it means to 'worship God in spirit and in truth,' to sit under a blanket with your thumbs in your ears?
Of course I have no credibility with you, you are a cult member! You don't actually believe anything unless it comes from some screwball source!
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:56:59 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: I don't condemn you. I just say that you have no
Message:
right to make a definitive statement that Christ did not give the same Knowledge as Maharaji. That is your opinion but it is not based on anything. It is not a fact. As far as being a cult member, it takes one to know one, I guess. You went from being in one 'cult', someone who had received the free gift of Knowledge from Maharaji, to another cult, an Episcople preacher in Panama! So don't point the finger at me, pal! If anyone is in a cult, it's you! You even preach the cult's doctrine every Wednesday and Sunday! And the correct translation is either the Kingdom of God is 'within' you or 'inside' you. I challenge you to find more translations of the original Greek text into 'among' you than 'within' you or 'inside' you. If God is omnipresent spirit, it's logical to assume that he is inside us, don't you think, Preacher? For information on Justinian, read chapter 11 of 'Reincarnation' by Hugh Lynn Cayce. You're right. I have no idea about your 'spiritual' experiences. You want to enlighten me? What are they?
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 01:32:33 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I don't condemn you. I just say that you have no
Message:
Please, Hugh Lynn Cayce? I should have known where you get your facts. The son of the old sleeping prophet, eh? I guess you're right; I wasted all those years in seminary getting a graduate degree, learning Greek and Hebrew, studying scriptures and history and actually reading the documents from the first three centuries when all I really needed to do was read Hugh Lynn Cayce's dad's incoherent ramblings and stuff from the akashic records. Is that where you got your information on the Essenes, the Gnostics, etc.?
Do you really think that all references would have also been removed from Hebrew sources? Are you really thinking this through?

You still think that 'knowledge' is a free gift even though there are strings attached. And of course, you would call the Episcopal Church a cult, everyone knows that the Anglican Communion is one big cult, while Elan Vital is a charitable organization.

Okay, Luke 17:21
New Revised Standard Version:
nor will they say 'Look, here it is!' or 'There it is!' For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you.

Revised English Bible:
You cannot say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is!' for the kingdom of God is among you.

New American Bible:
and no one will announce, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For behold, the kingdom of God is among you.

New Jerusalem Bible:
and there will be on one to say, 'Look, it is here! Look, it is there!' For look, the kingod of God is among you.

We are finished, the dialogue is over. I will not try to converse with you any more as I will be accused of casting pearls among swine.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 02:58:24 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: So what are you saying, Preacher? The Kingdom of
Message:
God isn't within us? It's among us? Where exactly? If you read chapter 11 of 'Reincarnation', you would discover numerous documented facts about Justinian and his consort Theodora who had the Bible basically rewritten. And if you read Cayce's life story, you would know that he read the Bible cover to cover for each year of his life. On his worst day he could run circles around you as far as Bible quotes are concerned. Do yourself a favor and read 'There Is a River' by Thomas Sugrue and you'll learn about a man with real spiritual experiences. Not some psuedo-scholar who claims to know what Jesus and God were all about! And I said translators of the Gospels from the original Greek. How many Greek scholars would translate it as being among you? You are a weaselly little cult member, aren't you? So smug in his 'faith'. So do I get the last word, Preacher Boy?
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 03:53:37 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: So what are you saying, Preacher? The Kingdom of
Message:
Sheesh, you are a thick one. I explained that the Reign of God (the term I use instead of Kingdom of God) is among us; we are to work to bring it about (this is a couple posts above). That is what Jesus taught. You want to believe that it has something to do with squeezing your eyeballs or going inside, well, I can't stop you. No, it is not within you.
I will read up on Justinian, but really, I think you and Hugh are mistaken about his re-writing the Bible. Here is my problem with you: I quote actual sources used by scholars and considered credible by scholars, while you quote less than scholarly sources.
I have read Cayce, I've read Stearn's biography on him, I read Sugure's biography, and I read all those books put out by his group there in Virginia Beach. At one time I was like you; I read all this goofy stuff and only believed things from unorthodox sources. Perhaps you think there is a great conspiracy to hide the truth; I believed that kind of stuff, but once I left the cult and began to use my mind and learn about scientific method and historical methods, I realized that Cayce and Van Daniken and their ilk were mistaken. I realize that is is disheartening at the very least to be told that much of what you hold dear is based on falicies, but that is just the way it is.
The translations I quoted are all taken from the Greek and the oldest sources available. Do you even have a clue as to what is involved in translation?
You claim to be a seeker of truth but you have a very nasty reaction to the truth. You can call me 'preacher' in a disparaging way but it doesn't change the fact that I do know what I am talking about.
Have the last word, I'm sure it will make you feel good. I'm sorry that the inner peace you get from M's free gift seems to have left you in this conversation.
As for my part, I won't be reading your posts anymore, so you can say whatever crazy thing you want about Jesus and scriptures.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 03:52:47 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: So what are you saying, Preacher? The Kingdom of
Message:
Yowza Shroomie,
I dropped my snack when I read that someone read the bible all the way through each year. I tried that when I looked at the bible the first time. I had to start rapidly flipping past many sections.

Micheal mentioned about a coming better time. I wonder what that would look like.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 04:47:29 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: If Michael is involved in establishing the 'reign'
Message:
of God among us, my kundalini just shudders! Do you think we'd all have to sit around and listen to him pontificating about what God and Jesus REALLY want? I'd love to have an audio or a video of his 'preaching'. Sometimes I get insomnia and counting sheep doesn't work anymore. Well, there are those that know and there are those that think they know. Unfortunately, the ones who think they know feel it their duty to preach to the rest of us! Do you suppose that the 'reign' of God will begin in Panama? I think the heats gotten to his brain.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 22:00:20 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: If Michael is involved in establishing the 'reign'
Message:
Afternoon Shoomer and Mickey
Today I thunk up an interesting offshoot of our thread here and what you and Mickey said.
Tonight I'll try to find spot up near the top where you are posting and insert it in there.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:52:41 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: We share the same first name, Reverend, but
Message:
Hi Shroomie,
What would be, in your view, the reason that you, jesus(Yeshua),or prem rawat would show the next person thier breath and to look at the back of thier eyelids (thereabouts), do that thing with the tongue, and ears.
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:39:21 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: TY very much :)
Message:
Could you possibly expound on the Holy Spirit a little more?
What is it supposed to feel like -do you even feel it?
Do you 'do' something to be able to feel it?
Things like that.

Much appreciated

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:45:27 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: mgdbach@hotmail.com
To: Elaine
Subject: You're welcome.
Message:
Elaine, I really don't like to talk about this stuff on the site too much as I don't think it is appropriate; we are here to discuss M and work through those things. However, I am happy to carry on an e-mail correspondence on such subjects. You may e-mail me at mgdbach@hotmail.com and I will be happy to answer your questions regarding the Holy Spirit.
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 16:16:03 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: This stuff isn't such a big deal, ELaine
Message:
I believe there is grace from God but that we shouldn't be too preoccupied in trying to 'get some'. 'Hallowed be thy name' refers to the Lord's Prayer and has nothing to do with 'holy name', justs means 'hallowed (revered) be the Lord's name'

The Holy SPirit, or Comforter Jesus talked about--what is it? I have no clue but I have felt it.

I still beleive in God but rather than making it a life's occupation to 'become one with God' I just try to be a good person, and to connect with other people. That is enough of a life's project, believe me. I think that is really the only way to be truly 'religious' anymore. Sure it is nice to meditate and pray (I still do both) and to call on God for help and all. But to try to become one with God, is a waste of time, IMO. I don't waste too much time thinking about this stuff anymore. Too much preoccupation with it is not healthy for me. Makes me too self-involved. All I can know for sure is that I have one life, and one chance to be the best person I can be. Humanity is more important than religion, or spirituality when it comes down to it.
In conversations with you int he past you have said stuff like that you wonder if you are close to death because you are connecting with people on such a deep level (meanng, I guess that you are ready to transcend this 'human form') That kind of thinking is creepy, IMO. Also seems self-involved that you can presume you have reached some 'higher state' . That to me is the danger of this preoccupation with spirituality. Just my opinion, Elaine. I have told you in the past that you push my buttons because you remind me of myself in my 'intense spiritual questing' days. When I only read 'spiritual books' and such. I think this makes for a very inbalanced type of human, IMO. Well you brought it all up so here is my answer!

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 17:40:28 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Since you ask
Message:
Here is a book that might address your questions:

'Prayers of the Cosmos, Meditations on the Aramaic Words of Jesus.' by Neil Douglas-Klotz. You can order it at amazon.com I think. It's translations from the original Aramaic of what jesus said, and it's a breath of fresh air. He explains the language and the meanings of key words and the way they are used. Excellent cult-recovery for Christians, without losing the spiritual connection, but especially, without separating spirit from body and everyday life.

Here's an example:

King James' Version:

'And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors'

Aramaic version:

'Untangle the knots within so that we can mend our hearts' simple ties to others.'

KJ:
'Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.'

Aramaic:

'Unite the crowd within in a vision of passionate purpose: light mates with form.'

Hope this helps.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:41:07 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Exactly what I wanted, anyone else any ideas?nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 00:20:03 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus
Message:
the Christ'? If you haven't seen it, you might really enjoy it. Maharaji referred to it a few times in the early years. I found it fascinating. It was written by a doctor in the 1880's named Eli Dowling whose amanuensis was Levi. It detailed Christ's early years and his travels between the ages of 12 and 30. He supposedly went to India, Tibet, Persia, Greece and Egypt. Dowling was also a Minister and used to meditate between 2am and 5am in the morning and got so elevated (according to the preface in the book) that he was able to read the Akashic records recorded on the ethers from Christ's time on earth. One of the things he described which I thought was really cool was when Jesus turned water into wine. He says that Jesus stirred up the ethers and the water recognized the Master, blushed and became wine. Also, when Christ was dying on the cross, instead of saying 'Father, why hast thou forsaken me?', Levi says that he was actually saying 'Thou sun, thou sun, why hast thou forsaken me?' According to Levi, clouds had hidden the sun and he was feeling cold but that the crowd thought he was complaining to God about being crucified. Somehow, I like the idea that Jesus wasn't complaining to God but was complaining about the weather! Anyway, the book has been re-printed umpteen times so I'm sure you can find a paperback version (it's still in print) or a hardback if you're lucky in a used book store. Good luck!
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:44:33 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus
Message:
He says that Jesus stirred up the ethers and the water recognized the Master, blushed and became wine.

That's cute. And this came from where? The, er, Akashic records? Must be true then, huh?

According to Levi, clouds had hidden the sun and he was feeling cold but that the crowd thought he was complaining to God about being crucified. Somehow, I like the idea that Jesus wasn't complaining to God but was complaining about the weather!

You're a riot, Shroom. Here's a guy going through one of the most painful deaths imaginable, and you 'somehow like' that he was only complaining about the weather. The crucifixion was no big deal, but dang those clouds. Of all the times for them to show up. And it was such a beautiful day before that. Yes, a great day to be crucified. You crack me up.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:50:50 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus
Message:
I read that book around the time I got K. It's a made up book of fiction. The historical Jesus was married, almost certainly to Mary Magdeline and he had at least one child who went to France with Mary after Jesus died. This is very different to the imaginations of Dowling who obviously just read the gospels and then added his own bits to them.

There is growing evidence that the gospels were written during the eye witness period within 70 years of Jesus's birth. However, some of the chapters are obviously fiction or at least containing poetic licence. The Garden of Gethsemeni story where Jesus asks God to take this cup from him (I parody) was obviously made up because at the time, all of Jesus's disciples were supposed to be asleep. Therefore, nobody would have heard Jesus say this.

Also, when people were dying from crucifixion, saying anything would be well nigh impossible since they would be dying of suffocation due to breathing becoming more and more difficult. The chest area and diaphram packs up and is unable to function due to the stress of hanging there from one's nailed wrists.

I doubt that anyone being crucified would be able to shout out some historic last words. And cetainly, the weather would be the last thing on their mind.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:22:22 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: historical???
Message:
Sir Dave,

Could you be open to the idea that JC was not a real, live 'historical' character? More a compilation of the mythic hero-figures of antiquity?

Yes? No?

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 13:01:18 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus
Message:
Hi, Sir D,

Here's a book you might find interesting. Things you'd never know to think of. I've been looking for it, myself, in bookstores, but can't find it. I think I'll probably just order it, myself. Looks interesting.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:41:26 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus
Message:
The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus is the biggest bunch of 19th century hooey! Blushing water, puhleeze!!! And, if Jesus actually DID say 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?' on the cross, he was quoting Psalm 22, not commenting on the weather. You really will buy almost any inane idea. Oh, by the way, the only reason Yoganda and M and all these gurus claim a lineage with Jesus is to give their sorry little cults credibility in the West.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 09:07:53 (GMT)
From: Unitarian
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Hey PREACHER
Message:
Hey preacher....What do you know about God that you can preach to others...Go and find God first before you start preaching....its not enough to preach about God two days a week...(Sundays and Wednesdays)...God is Living Supreme Entity...If you want to find out about God....you cant do that on a two day a week basis....or half an hour in church on sundays...

By the way you got it wrong about Jesus..and the Essens...he grow up and was taught by the Essens....do you want a proof..

the name Jesus is Eisa in Aramaic and Arabic...and guess waht the Essens ara called...Eisaween ....Eisa means one of the Eisaween....GET IT?...

This crap about the TRINITY is a 3rd century Thing....idease developed in the 3rd Conference held under the agis of the roman emperor of the time Constantine...He burnt all the gospels...about 75 of them....killed all the Unitarian bishops....and decided that the main cult of christianity should be the Trinitarian church and their gospel...

If God is One ...how can He be 3....Oneness is Unity , God is One mean there is nothing like Him, He is Unique, and Total and self sufficient...This Trinity thing is just a perverted misrepresentation of the Teachings of Jesus...Tell me anywhere in the Bible where Jesus is quoted as saying that God is Three....can you find it..no...Because he never said it...

So stop teaching people nonsense and stop misleading people...

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 14:19:24 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Unitarian
Subject: Hey PREACHER
Message:
Of course the Trinity is a Christian theology, but it was being developed long before the Council of Nicea or even the third Council of Ephesus. The issue at the third council was the nature of Christ, not the Trinity. Also, they weren't Unitarian bishops, (there weren't any Unitarians until the 18th century) they were Arian bishops. Constantine didn't burn all the gospels or execute all the Arian bishops; where do you get this stuff? The Ecumenical Councils decided that orthodox Christianity accepted the idea of the Trinity, not Constantine. He called the first council to Nicea so that the bishops would stop fighting.

There are many Trinitarian references (I and the Father are One, I will send you the Comforter) in the Gospel of John.

Now go back under your blanket and remember Holy Name.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 14:30:27 (GMT)
From: Unitarian
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Hey PREACHER..
Message:
Sorry..You got all your facts wrong...

I and the Father are One...has nothing to do with this FALSE Trinitarian Doctrine...

When Jesus was asked , why you say My father...who is Your Father...my I remind you ...he said We are all the children of God...

THe Unitarians....were early christians...the Bishop of Eygpt was one of them...and he got the Chop...Sorry mate you dont know your Christian history....The 3rd council debated the issue of Uniratians vs trinitarians...and the Trinitarians came on top ...with the help of constantine

The Trinity...is somthing akin to Greek methology of multiple gods..and to Hinduism...you are preaching fasle christianity...On whos authority you preach...I can tell you not on the authority of Jesus...

You are an ignortant fool...misleading people with your preaching..Who gave you the Authority to Preach...

By the way.. I am an ex-premie...

And I bet you have never been a premie..so what the hell are you doing talking about somthing you have no practical experience in and dont know about...sounds the same as your perverted preaching...

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:32:51 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Unitarian
Subject: Hey PREACHER..
Message:
Well, I do know early Christian History, and I have a M.A from the Graduate Theological Union to prove it. I have several books on the Ecumenical Councils before the split of 1054. I am an ex-premie, and I am brave enough to use my real name. My ordination gives me the right to preach. You know nothing about my preaching.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:14:01 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Monothelite (Unitarian)
Subject: Hey Monothelite!
Message:
I'm curious as to why you are all worked up about the Trinity; someone asked about the Holy Spirit and I gave one of several Christian perspectives on the subject. I certainly don't come here to discuss Christian theology anyway, but you seem to have become unglued. Do you have a few other issues which are coming out here? Your ideas about the Trinity or my authority to preach are of no interest to me, but why are you accusing me of preaching perverted doctrines? Is any of this relevant to the Ex-premie Forum?
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:46:51 (GMT)
From: Unitarin
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Hey Preacher
Message:
Personally I think you have gone backward rather then forward...At least M does not disgaree with the One God...

You are preaching Polytheism....tantamount to saying like the Hindus tha Krishna who was the 'lord' reincarnated in human form...what is the difference between this and what you are preaching..its perverted because it is not the orginal teaching of Jesus...and you are misleading people...and getting a good paycheck at the end of the month....

Let me explain to you why God can not be 3 but Only One...

If God was three....then who is in control...one of the three?
And what was there in the Begining...God or the Three..
Your theology is very similar to the Hindu Brahma Vishnu Shiva Trinity...they have a Trinity...and so do you...what is the difference...Why do you want to claim that Jesus was special anbd divine....is it not enough to say that he was a Master ort a Prohpet..or do you want to single him out as a special one off..

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:21:43 (GMT)
From: Another Unitarian (Helen)
Email: None
To: Unitarin
Subject: Hey Preacher
Message:
One doesn't see too many religious Unitarians anymore.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 23:39:34 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Another Unitarian (Helen)
Subject: Hey Real Unitarian!
Message:
Hi Helen
I'm happy to read the good news about your husband.
When this nameless poster called his/herself Unitarian, I was thinking 'the only Unitarian on this site is Helen and this CERTAINLY isn't her kind of post!!'
You're right, I didn't meet any religious Unitarians at Star King School of Ministry (SKSM) the Unitarian seminary in Berkeley.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 13:21:16 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: Hey Real Unitarian!
Message:
Yeah, it is unusual to see a Unitarian who is zealous in anyway. The Unitarian attitude is usually, 'hey whatever floats yer boat, man, WHatever pops yer cork' Most Unis are kind of like 'cultural Jews' who love their church community, and are proud to be Unis but don't really beleive in God if you really pin them down to it. Are you a minister? If so what denomination?
Thanks for the good wishes about my husband. He is out playing golf at this very moment, relishing in the fact that he will have his eye for many years to come.

Helen

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 15:37:18 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hey Real Unitarian!
Message:
Sheesh Helen, it's me, Mickey the Pharisee, your favorite Episcopal priest!!! I just use my actual name now to combat premie cowardice.

I heard this joke in seminary: Q. What do you get when you cross a Unitarian with a Jehovah's Witness? A> Someone knocking on doors for no appearent reason.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:30:02 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Have you heard of 'Cinderella?' ........
Message:
.....it's another true story your bound to enjoy.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:22:40 (GMT)
From: aquarius
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Have you heard of 'The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus
Message:
let me get this straight-you admonish the guy talking about the holy spirit, and tell him that he wasn't there 2000 years ago, so he can't know what he's talking about...

then you proceed to tell us about the aquarian gospel(I'm assuming you weren't there either), that m quotes it(I'm assuming he wasn't there either), and the water blushes and becomes wine, and that jesus was complaining about the weather as they are crucifying him!...

are we supposed to believe all this?

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:17:32 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: aquarius
Subject: Believe what you want, pal, that's why it's called
Message:
free will! I enjoyed reading about the Christ as portrayed in the Aquarian Gospel, but I wouldn't make the statement that the same Knowledge is being given by Maharaji. Just as I couldn't say that it isn't. That's just the way it is. But I love devotion and when I read about Christ, I get inspired. When I listen to Maharaji, I get inspired. Is it the same Knowledge? I have no idea but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. I guess we'll have to ask God. He created both Christ and Maharaji so He would know, wouldn't He? Do you have his address? Or better yet his phone number? I'd like to ask Him.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:35:40 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: aquarius
Subject: LOL (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:36:33 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: LOL (a little text to follow)
Message:
I was introduced to The Aquarian Gospel the same night I was introduced to Dr. Bronner's Corn Chips, by, guess who...premies! I was an aspirant.

I loved them both.

Seriously, though, comparisons between religions/cults/theologies are just a parlor game; they certainly don't help in one's personal search for truth.

BTW, I've made two pies in my life. The first one, by the book (Joy of Cooking) from backyard cherries. Last month. Turned out well. The other, today, from a 'Net recipe (w/ supermarket crust and not much baking, good for this hot Colorado summer) called Summertime Blueberry Pie. Mmmm.

Oh, sorry, we were talking about...?

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:37:45 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: LOL (a little text to follow)
Message:
Same here. Premies sold me the same story and I was so young, just 18. that ended up buying it. That's why we are talking about pies now!! I love it!! What were the chances of that happening without the guru, eh? I have to recognize that sometimes I come to this forum with a state of mind that doesn't allow me to feel 'too much' compasion for others, like if at those times I am self-absorved in my ego and just want to laugh, without thinking too much. Maybe I laugh at what premies have to say to defend their 'angel' because I've learned to laugh at 'that' part of me which was programmed too to believe 'that' angel of light. Baking rocks. I'm partial to rich German cakes, preferable with either peaches or plums, and at top of the fruit I sprinkle a mixture of flour, sugar and butter. Talking about mmm...

Oh, we were talking about how the bible 'says' that M was going to come to reveal knowledge and save humanity. Jesus was Jewish, right? No yeast for him, eh? Bummer.

Why shroom keeps coming here? Perhaps he has his doubts and he is trying to probe 'his mind' wrong. I wish him good luck, and he will have it if he reasons properly. I think that in my case, the fact that I did not post until I had already left the cult of maharuchi was better; I read and read and for some time I couldn't make up my mind, but finally did; what sense is there in following Lard and 'his gift'?. How intelligent is it to try to convince an ex-premie that lard is for real? Pies are real. Pies and ice cream are real. Money is real, and as good as it gets for our cultural systems. The world is fine, evolving the best 'they' can. My love for family and pies is real. Any good movie to recommend? Real peace is real, not the fake idolatry based peace mahariuchi 'gives'. Haven't premies noticed yet?

Search for truth? First of all, all those seeker need to ask themselves why do they want to know the 'truth'? People that receive K are seekers of devotion to Lard? Hmmm... We humans are partial to attention, recognition and all the good stuff that love brings and following that makes you human and that is good enough for me. That is not enough for premies. They want something or somebody to adore. When Lard's philosophy is observed well (only possible if you are not a devotee) the conclusion is only one: The guy is one of the biggest clowns we have seen, crown and all.

What about rice puddin?

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 13:06:54 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: yes! (nt)
Message:
x
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:59:46 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: And this is INTERESTING
Message:
Followed one of the links given on the 'So you want to be evil...' site (see thread below) to www.cultsolutions.com then on to their Breaking News links, and found this news item:


Britain denies Scientology Charitable Status

London England
December 10, 1999

Officials of the British Government denied the Church of Scientology charitable status saying 'it does not provide any public services'.

Scientologists said they would appeal the decision, announced by the Charity Commission, which regulates charities in England and Wales.

Graeme Wilson, public affairs director for the Church of Scientology in Britain, called the decision 'wrong on the law and wrong on the facts'.

'If the same logic were broadly applied, several hundred recognized charities in the U.K. would be deprived of their status, among them minority religions such as Buddhists, Jainists and Mormons,' he said.

But check the date of the article - December 10th - the Lard's birthday!! (cue Twighlight Zone theme....). Tell me that's not an omen!

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:42:58 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Now this is FUNNY
Message:
Came across this website, titled:

'So you've decided to be Evil' and it cracked me up totally.

Especially the page on 'Careers for Evil People'

Location: http://members.tripod.com/~mrpuzuzu/career.html

Here is an extract on Starting a Cult:
(note, underlined words contain links on the original page)

Perhaps one of the most rewarding evil jobs is that of cult leader. There's nothing quite like an army of brainwashed zealots who are all willing to blow themselves up for you after they've sold every material possession and now wear smelly orange robes.

If you've decided this is the career for you, the first thing to do is to read up on a bunch of cults. Some good sites include: Cults 101, Cult Solutions, and this essay on ways of identifying a cult. Make sure you have all these vital traits for your own! And don't forget that you can make the anti-cult sites work for you. The AFF has excellent information on cult formation that you can use for your own, and Margaret Singer's essay on the conditions necessary for mind control is practically a How-To-Guide!

You will also need to ask yourself: Do you want a Doomsday cult? A Free Love cult? A Messianic cult that worships you like a god? This is a very important decision, as it will determine whether you are surrounded by big guns or scantily clad women/men.

.......

Hordes of Followers

The most vital element. Ironically enough, once you have charisma of the gods, the drones generally tend to start flocking to you. You can however fine tailor the type of cult members coming to you with the message your preach. If you are a doomsday cult, simply spread a message of the impending apocalypse and how you are the only way to heaven. If you are an orgiastic sex cult, simply promise endless free love (best of all with you!) And if you're a messianic cult, simply say you are the son of god! Or grandson. Or something.

There you have it, you're a cult leader. Free money, free love, free sex. And if you're get declared a religion, exemption for taxes! Life is sweet.

The rest of the site is equally hilarious. Check it out at:

http://members.tripod.com/~mrpuzuzu/index.html

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:05:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Full Moon Madness? (ot)
Message:
In a thread below, about astrology, the old urban legend of the 'lunar effect' was brought forth. Supposedly, people have a tendency to go crazy during a full moon. Police, and nurses that work in emergency rooms, swear by it. But tests that have been taken to prove or disprove this legend have all shown that the effects of a full moon on behavior are negligible. Just another one of those beliefs people have that, when put under the glare of scientific study, just doesn't hold up, like astrology. I don't know. There must be something wrong with the scientific method. Ya think? They never seem to get things right.
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:55:23 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Uh, Jerry...
Message:
When we used to keep statistics on this forum, there was a significant increase in posts read around the day of the full moon. Hard to believe, but that's what happened - and numbers don't lie. Maybe it only affects ex-premies?
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:04:55 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Katie
Subject: Moon stats
Message:
Hi Katie,

Just wondered, but are you sure about the statistical significance of the results? For one thing, it is very hard to isolate the presence of a full moon as a factor unless you run a study for years, because for many months in succession in any given year, the three or four days around full-moon (or at least when the moon appears full for at least part of the night) will occur around the same time on successive months. In such cases - if, say - the full moon is occuring just before pay day, many posters may just be at home because they are short of cash to go out...

I'd love to see the figures though, and I'm not doubting your word (but perhaps just the interpretation) - or it could be the moon-lodge, I suppose!

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:41:21 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Nigel
Subject: ...and more important
Message:
Because of the near-exact 28-day moon phase, the full moon will fall on the same day of the week (or part of the week) for even longer periods of time - such as a Monday when fewer people go out etc.

I remember reading that one of the early studies looking at the full-moon and crime rates failed to take into account that pretty well all the full-moons in their sample fell on a weekend!

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:30:32 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: ...and more important
Message:
I remember reading that one of the early studies looking at the full-moon and crime rates failed to take into account that pretty well all the full-moons in their sample fell on a weekend!

I've heard about this, too, Nigel. It would be interesting to know if there's a particular day of the week that people have a tendency to post more, and if that day correlates with the day the moon was full, back when statistics were being taken.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 13:09:09 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Uh, Jerry...
Message:
Katie, I don't doubt more people have tuned into the forum during a full moon, but that could be because we've got so many new age quacks, here, they might think something very significant will be posted at that time. Here's an interesting website just bursting with other statistics that show that there is no significant increase in activities during a full moon. Of course, they're not ex-premies, and that might mean something, but y'know, I don't think so.

I see a bad moon rising

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 15:18:27 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: A likely story :)
Message:
HI Jerry -
Just reporting the facts - I have no explanation for it. More people seem to check into the forum after M gives a program in the US or UK too. I don't know about the 'new age kooks' theory, either!

BTW, I'm still not convinced about the full moon having no influence, but also think storms or other rapid changes in barometric pressure affect people's behavior too (just an observation).

Take care -
Love,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 16:02:37 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: A likely story :)
Message:
Actually, I don't know about the new age kooks theory, either. Just reaching for straws, there. But seriously, the fact that more people read the forum during a full moon has nothing to do with what the popular beliefs are of what happens during a full moon, and in studies taken in those areas, statistics just don't bear it out that there's credence to the full moon legend. I just think since a full moon is so more noticeable than other types, and we have been ingrained with the belief that the full moon brings out the worst in people, whenever something DOES happen during a full moon, we place more emphasis on it, and it has more prominence in our memories than other events that occur at other times.
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:21:45 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Full Moon Madness? (ot)
Message:
Jerry, I have so many stories of full moon fuck-ups on my part, it would be embarrassing to even tell them on forum. And the thing was, I wasn't even aware that it WAS the full moon at the time of these incidents.

Of course these days I'm very aware of the full moon, and tend to be especially careful and cautious around it.
Scientific method or not:)
Unfortunate that Selene's still on her little vacation and unavailable to comment. She's our resident 'moon godess' you know.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:14:00 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: hi Jerry
Message:
I always get insomnia during full moons. Often when I don't know it's the full moon and it happens anyway.

Course I suppose it could be dubunked that I heard it was somewhere or subconciously knew it was the full moon, etc.
Also I get insomnia at other times as well, so ...

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:24:01 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You're baaack!!
Message:
Sheesh! just when I say you're still on vacation...you show up.
This isn't the full moon, is it? :)
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 18:50:07 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: I show up at interesting times
Message:
Yea you never know...
new moon made the tides at OB high. Full moon too.
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:49:01 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: You sure do :)
Message:
No wonder things were so interesting around here while you were gone :)
Glad you're back. I think you know that.
Come to think of it, so do THEY :::)))
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:16:48 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dunrite Productions, Inc.
Message:
Dunrite Productions, Inc. is Maharaji's production company. It's name has appeared in the credits on some videos of Maharaji speaking. These videos were (and possibly still are) sold by Visions International (another name for Elan Vital). Music CDs produced by Dunrite are also sold at the sales tables at community events. The former name of Dunrite was ILC Productions, Inc. (remember the nebulous 'International Learning Center'?)

Another company name that has appeared in the credits on some videos of Maharaji speaking is Wahadamar Inc.

General information on Dunrite Productions, Inc.:
(current through 7-21-2000, filed with the Secretary of State)

State id number: 01435503
Type: Domestic Stock Corporation
Status: Active
Good Standing Status: Only available directly from Secretary of State.
Date of Incorporation: 4-29-1988

Mailing Address: P0 Box 6998, Thousand Oaks, CA 91359
Duration: Perpetual

Title: President
Name: Michael B Wood
Address: 5633-C Foxwood Drive, Agoura Hills, CA 91301

Title: Registered Agent
Agent Name: Alvaro Pascotto Esq
Address: 1800 Avenue Of The Stars Ste 600, Los Angeles, CA 90067

Transaction: SECRETARY OF STATE DELINQUENCY LETTER
Date: 9-11-1996

Transaction: SECRETARY OF STATE DELINQUENCY LETTER
Date: 9-06-1994

Transaction: FRANCHISE TAX BOARD REVIVOR
Date: 10-28-1993

Transaction: CERTIFICATE OF AMENDMENT
Date: 8-11-1992
Number of pages filed: 1
Certificate: #A0421604
Comments: NAME CHANGE FROM: ILC PRODUCTIONS, INC.

Transaction: FRANCHISE TAX BOARD SUSPENSION
Date: 3-02-1992

Transaction: SECRETARY OF STATE DELINQUENCY LETTER
Date: 8-05-1991

Transaction: SECRETARY OF STATE DELINQUENCY LETTER
Date: 8-06-1990

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:40:53 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Wahadamar Inc.
Message:
Notice that the president is John K. Bale, who is involved in many of these related companies. The registered agent is Alvaro Pascotto. I think Alvaro has a brother. I remember one of them 'giving' this heavy 'satsang' where he said 'You'll get to the point where you won't want to have an identity.'

Wahadamar, Inc.

(info current through 7-21-2000, filed w/ Secretary of State)

State ID Number: 01710708
Type: Domestic Stock Corporation
Status: Active
Good Standing Status: Only available directly from Secretary of State.
Date of Incorporation: 8-03-1992
Mailing Address: PO Box 1437, Thousand Oaks, CA 91358
Duration: Perpetual

Title: President
Name: John K. Bale
Address: 516 N Pennsfield PL #108, Thousand Oaks, CA 91360

Title: Registered Agent
Agent Name: Alvaro Pascotto
Address: 1800 Avenue Of The Stars #600, Los Angeles, CA 90067

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:30:07 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dunrite debt filings (UCCs)
Message:
Dunrite Productions, Inc. appears as a debtor in 12 UCCs filed in CA.

(UCC stands for Uniform Commercial Code, see UCC-1 Article)

Filing date, first secured party: (all UCC type are UCC)

02-14-2000, Advanta Business Sevices
03-21-1996, Balboa Capital Corporation
02-11-2000, Colonial Pacific Leasing Corporation
02-11-2000, Colonial Pacific Leasing Corporation
02-21-1997, Dana Commercial Credit Corporation
03-16-2000, Newcourt/CIT Group
03-16-2000, Newcourt/CIT Group
03-16-2000, Newcourt/CIT Group
04-21-2000, SDI Capital Resources, Inc.
04-21-2000, SDI Capital Resources, Inc.
02-28-1995, Sony Electronics Inc.
08-10-1990, Sony Electronics Inc.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:35:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dunrite debt - detail (long)
Message:
Detail on Dunrite Productions, Inc. UCCs:
(information current 1-04-1965 to 7-17-2000, filed: UCC-Secretary of State). Some leased equipment is shown as collateral. I have some info on the secured parties.

1.

Instrument Number: 0008160672
Filing Date: 03-16-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 03-16-2000
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 03-16-2005
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
41 DUESENBERG DR ST A
THOUSAND OAKS, CALIFORNIA 91362
Federal ID Number: 954171024

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
41 DUESENBERG DR STE B
THOUSAND OAKS, CALIFORNIA 91362
Federal ID Number: 954171024

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
POB 6998
THOUSAND OAKS, CALIFORNIA 91359
Federal ID Number: 954171024

Collateral Type: LEASED ASSETS AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: LEASED INVENTORY AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: LEASED EQUIPMENT AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: CHATTEL PAPER AND PROCEEDS

Secured Party:
NEWCOURT/CIT GROUP
233 N MICHIGAN AVE STE 1800
CHICAGO, ILLINOIS 60601

Transaction: AMENDMENT
Filing Date: 04-12-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Filing Type: Other amendment
Transaction: AMENDMENT
Filing Date: 04-21-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Filing Type: Assignment

2.

Instrument Number: 0008160672
Filing Date: 03-16-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 03-16-2000
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 03-16-2005
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor and Secured Party: (same as in #1)

Collateral Type: LEASED ASSETS AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: LEASED INVENTORY AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: LEASED EQUIPMENT AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: CHATTEL PAPER AND PROCEEDS

Transaction: AMENDMENT
Filing Date: 04-12-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Filing Type: Other amendment
Transaction: AMENDMENT
Filing Date: 04-21-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Filing Type: Assignment

3.

Instrument Number: 0008160672
Filing Date: 03-16-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 03-16-2000
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 03-16-2005
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor and Secured Party: (same as in #1)

Collateral Type: LEASED ASSETS AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: LEASED INVENTORY AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: LEASED EQUIPMENT AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: CHATTEL PAPER AND PROCEEDS

Transaction: AMENDMENT
Filing Date: 04-12-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Filing Type: Other amendment
Transaction: AMENDMENT
Filing Date: 04-21-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Filing Type: Assignment

4.

Instrument Number: 0011960151
Filing Date: 04-21-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 04-21-2000
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 04-21-2005
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
41 DUESENBERG DR STE A & B
THOUSAND OAKS, CALIFORNIA 91362
Federal ID Number: 954171024

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
POB 6998
THOUSAND OAKS, CALIFORNIA 91359
Federal ID Number: 954171024

Collateral Type: LEASED ASSETS AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: LEASED INVENTORY AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: LEASED EQUIPMENT AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: CHATTEL PAPER AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS AND PROCEEDS

Secured Party:
SDI CAPITAL RESOURCES, INC.
660 NEWPORT CENTER DR STE 500
NEWPORT BEACH, CALIFORNIA 92660

5.

Instrument Number: 0011960151
Filing Date: 04-21-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 04-21-2000
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 04-21-2005
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor and Secured Party: (same as in #4)

Collateral Type: LEASED ASSETS AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: ACCOUNTS RECEIVABLE AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: LEASED INVENTORY AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: LEASED EQUIPMENT AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: CHATTEL PAPER AND PROCEEDS
Collateral Type: NEGOTIABLE INSTRUMENTS AND PROCEEDS

6.

Instrument Number: 9506560091
Filing Date: 02-28-1995
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 02-28-1995
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 02-28-2000
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
41 A N DUESENBERG DR
WESTLAKE VILLAGE, CALIFORNIA 91362
Federal ID Number: 954171024

Collateral Type: SPECIFIED EQUIPMENT AND PRODUCTS
Collateral Type: FIXTURES
Collateral Type: SPECIFIED COMPUTER EQUIPMENT AND PRODUCTS

Secured Party:
SONY ELECTRONICS INC.
3 PARAGON DR
MONTVALE, NEW JERSEY 07645

Transaction: AMENDMENT
Filing Date: 10-19-1995
Filing Time: 08:00
Filing Type: Other amendment

7.

Instrument Number: 90202357
Filing Date: 08-10-1990
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 08-10-1990
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 08-10-1995
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor and Secured Party: (same as in #6)

Collateral Type: SPECIFIED COMPUTER EQUIPMENT AND PRODUCTS
Collateral Type: SPECIFIED EQUIPMENT AND PRODUCTS

Transaction: AMENDMENT
Filing Date: 09-23-1994
Filing Time: 08:00
Filing Type: Debtor Amendment
Transaction: AMENDMENT
Filing Date: 09-23-1994
Filing Time: 08:00
Filing Type: Secured party amendment
Transaction: AMENDMENT
Filing Date: 05-16-1995
Filing Time: 08:00
Filing Type: Termination

8.

Instrument Number: 0004860268
Filing Date: 02-14-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 02-14-2000
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 02-14-2005
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
41 DUESENBERG DR
THOUSAND OAKS, CALIFORNIA 91362
Federal ID Number: 954171024

Collateral Type: LEASED COMPUTER EQUIPMENT
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: SOFTWARE
Manufacturers Code: MICROSOFT
Manufacturer Name: MICROSOFT
Model Number / Name: WINDOWS 98
Model Year: 0000
Model Description: MICROSOFT WINDOWS 98 SOFTWARE
Quantity: 1
Year Manufactured: 0000
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: DISPLAY STATION
Manufacturers Code: APPLE
Manufacturer Name: APPLE
Model Year: 0000
Quantity: 2
Year Manufactured: 0000

Secured Party:
ADVANTA BUSINESS SEVICES
4000 KRUSEWY PLC BLDG 3 STE 10
LAKE OSWEGO, OREGON 97035

9.

Instrument Number: 9608260754
Filing Date: 03-21-1996
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 03-21-1996
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 03-21-2001
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
41 A N DUESENBERG DR.
THOUSAND OAKS, CALIFORNIA 91360
Federal ID Number: 954171024

Collateral Type: LEASED COMPUTER EQUIPMENT

Secured Party:
BALBOA CAPITAL CORPORATION
10960 WILSHIRE BLVD., #1900
LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA 90024

Secured Party:
COLONIAL PACIFIC LEASING
7659 MOHAWK ST.
TUALATIN, OREGON 97062

10.

Instrument Number: 0004760549
Filing Date: 02-11-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 02-11-2000
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 02-11-2005
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
41 DUESENBERG DR
THOUSAND OAKS, CALIFORNIA 91362
Federal ID Number: 954171024

Collateral Type: LEASED COMPUTER EQUIPMENT
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: SOFTWARE
Manufacturers Code: MICROSOFT
Manufacturer Name: MICROSOFT
Model Number / Name: WINDOWS 98
Model Year: 0000
Model Description: MICROSOFT WINDOWS 98 SOFTWARE
Quantity: 1
Year Manufactured: 0000
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: SOFTWARE
Manufacturers Code: MICROSOFT
Manufacturer Name: MICROSOFT
Model Number / Name: WINDOWS
Model Year: 0000
Model Description: MICROSOFT WINDOWS SOFTWARE
Quantity: 1
Year Manufactured: 0000
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: DISPLAY STATION
Manufacturers Code: APPLE
Manufacturer Name: APPLE
Model Year: 0000
Quantity: 2
Year Manufactured: 0000

Secured Party:
COLONIAL PACIFIC LEASING CORPORATION
POB 230102
PORTLAND, OREGON 972810102

11.

Instrument Number: 0004760900
Filing Date: 02-11-2000
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 02-11-2000
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 02-11-2005
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
41 DUESENBERG DR
THOUSAND OAKS, CALIFORNIA 91362
Federal ID Number: 954171024

Collateral Type: LEASED COMPUTER EQUIPMENT
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: LASER PRINTER
Model Year: 0000
Quantity: 2
Year Manufactured: 0000
Collateral Type: LEASED EQUIPMENT
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: LASER PRINTER
Model Year: 0000
Quantity: 2
Year Manufactured: 0000

Secured Party:
COLONIAL PACIFIC LEASING CORPORATION
POB 230102
PORTLAND, OREGON 972810102

12.

Instrument Number: 9705860419
Filing Date: 02-21-1997
Filing Time: 08:00
Effective Date: 02-21-1997
Filing Type: UCC
Expiration Date: 02-21-2002
State: CALIFORNIA

Debtor:
DUNRITE PRODUCTIONS, INC.
41 A N DUESENBERG
WESTLAKE VILLAGE, CALIFORNIA 91362

Collateral Type: CHATTEL PAPER AND PROCEEDS
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: MICRO-COMPUTER
Manufacturers Code: APPLE
Manufacturer Name: APPLE
Model Number / Name: POWER MAC
Model Year: 0000
Model Description: APPLE POWER MAC MICROCOMPUTER
Quantity: 1
Year Manufactured: 0000
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: DISPLAY STATION
Manufacturers Code: SONY
Manufacturer Name: SONY
Model Year: 0000
Model Description: DISPLAY STATION
Quantity: 1
Year Manufactured: 0000
Collateral Type: LEASED COMPUTER EQUIPMENT AND PROCEEDS
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: MICRO-COMPUTER
Manufacturers Code: APPLE
Manufacturer Name: APPLE
Model Number / Name: POWER MAC
Model Year: 0000
Model Description: APPLE POWER MAC MICROCOMPUTER
Quantity: 1
Year Manufactured: 0000
Model Status: Not Specified
Primary Machine Type: DISPLAY STATION
Manufacturers Code: SONY
Manufacturer Name: SONY
Model Year: 0000
Model Description: DISPLAY STATION
Quantity: 1
Year Manufactured: 0000

Secured Party:
DANA COMMERCIAL CREDIT CORPORATION
201 W BIG BEAVER RD, #800
TROY, MICHIGAN 48084

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:23:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Lawsuit against Dunrite
Message:
Dunrite Productions Inc appears as a defendant in a suit filed in CA.

(Information current 3-29-1991 to 3-30-2000)

Case Number: 00C00684
Filing Date: 3-15-2000
State: California
County: Los Angeles
Status: Pending, 3-15-2000

Filing location:
Municipal Court/Glendale
600 East Broadway
Glendale, CA 91206

Defendant: Dunrite Productions Inc
Cause of action: Breach of Contract
Plaintiff: CDS Graphics Inc

See CDS Graphics Inc web site

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:42:52 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Lawsuit against Dunrite
Message:
Check out their website:

http://dunritegroup.com (there is no 'www')

Sorry can't do a 'click link' maybe you can.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:28:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Links to Dunrite web sites
Message:
Thanks, here's a click link to the

Dunrite Group web site

I'm pretty sure Dunrite Group is involved with some EV operations.

There's also

Eversound a subsidiary of Dunrite whose CDs are sold be Visions Intl.

Jossie Fresco, Maharaji's web master, is involved with these web sites and is involved with Dunrite Productions and iChange. See
his portfolio.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:16:22 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: The people, their quotes
Message:
From the Dunrite (judging by all the suits against them, that should be DunWRONG) Group website, such as it is:-

The People'/ Their Words of Wisdom

Jim Emerson/ 'We have set out to create the right environnment'

David Sinensky/ 'Teamwork is not just a buzzword'

Ray Belcher/ 'Basic things never change'

John McNelly / 'It has become about strategies which acknowledge convergence'

Jossi Fresco / 'We are in the exploration business'

I know Jossi's a premie (hi, Jossi), but what of the others, anyone?

How do you find all this stuff G? What search engine are you on?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 21:01:45 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: United Pathways, Inc.
Message:
Speaking of Jim Emerson, there was a Jim Emerson who was an officer of a non-profit corp. in Florida called 'United Pathways, Inc.'. Randy Prouty was involved with that corp. The last event was 'ADMIN DISSOLUTION FOR ANNUAL REPORT'.

Source: Corporate Name List. Search for 'United Pathways', then click on 'United Pathways'.

Florida Non Profit

UNITED PATHWAYS, INC.

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS
C/O RANDALL PROUTY
2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., STE 220
WEST PALM BEACH FL 33409
Changed 05/01/1996

MAILING ADDRESS
C/O RANDALL PROUTY
2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., STE 220
WEST PALM BEACH FL 33409
Changed 05/01/1996

Document Number: N46592
FEI Number: 650302723
Date Filed: 12/24/1991
State: FL
Status: INACTIVE
Effective Date: NONE
Last Event: ADMIN DISSOLUTION FOR ANNUAL REPORT
Event Date Filed: 09/24/1999
Event Effective Date: NONE

Registered Agent Name & Address
PROUTY, RANDALL
2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., STE. 220
WEST PALM BEACH FL 33409
Name Changed: 05/01/1996
Address Changed: 05/01/1996

Officer/Director Detail
Name & Address, Title

PROUTY, RANDALL H.
2247 PALM BEACH LAKES BLVD., #220
WEST PALM BEACH FL 33409, PDS

MURPHY, CHRISTINA
1900 DECKER SCHOOL LANE
MALIBU CA 90265, D

EMERSON, JIM
411 VALLEY LAKE DRIVE
ATLANTA GA 30087, D

Annual Reports
Report Year, Filed Date, Intangible Tax
1996, 05/01/1996
1997, 04/01/1997
1998, 05/19/1998, N

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 21:49:34 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Avron Intl.
Message:
Here's another possibly related company, inactive since 1987.
Morton Beck Jonas, Kathleen Gliebe, and Mary Holle were the officers. Anyone know a Morton Beck Jonas?

Florida Profit

AVRON INTERNATIONAL INC.

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS
300 71ST ST, STE 405
PO BOX 546724
MIAMI FL 33154
Changed 03/11/1985

MAILING ADDRESS
300 71ST ST, STE 405
PO BOX 546724
MIAMI FL 33154
Changed 03/11/1985

Document Number F66682
FEI Number 592514917
Date Filed 02/08/1982
State FL
Status INACTIVE
Effective Date NONE
Last Event VOLUNTARY DISSOLUTION
Event Date Filed 04/09/1987
Event Effective Date NONE

Registered Agent
Name & Address
UNITED STATES CORPORATION COMPANY
226 W GEORGIA ST
TALLAHASSEE FL 32301
Address Changed: 04/30/1984

Officer/Director Detail
Name & Address, Title
JONAS, MORTON BECK, 7300 NE 7TH AVE., MIAMI FL, PD
GLIEBE, KATHLEEN M, 11962 OCEANAIRE LANE, MALIBU CA, VD
HOLLE,MARY E., 1865 KEYSTONE BLVD., MIAMI FL, STD

Annual Reports
Report Year, Filed Date, Intangible Tax
1985, 03/11/1985
1986, 04/28/1986
1987, 03/31/1987

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:16:44 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I recall Mort Jonas as a premie.....(nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:28:51 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: and Another
Message:
Inexcel Inc

Geez do these guys actually have *time* to meditate among all their biz enterprises!

Best way to search is on Officer/Registered Agent Form:

http://ccfcorp.dos.state.fl.us/corpweb/inquiry/corioff.html

and punch in your favorite person's name:)

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 21:37:19 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: United Pathways, Inc. and more
Message:
United Pathways was an all premie operation, G. Christia Murphy is Proutty's wife, consort, whatever.
Here they appear in this company which is currently being listed on the Nasdaq OTC exchange (ticker symbol: ADVC if you want to get a current quote and more info.)

I believe that along with Mike Finch of UK premie notoriety (here with a U.S. address), he's holding the stake for m in this one. Also, note that Randy here is using Christina's address found in United Pathways.

As of yet, we have no reason to believe that the other directors/officers are pwks. But this is big, and a minority stake for m would be enough.

I've already reported on forum 3, that when I was at the Amtext party, one pwk was given his 'Award' or 'gift' for researching leading edge high- tech opportunities for m to 'invest' in. To the best of my recollection that premie was Randy Proutty and I believe premies showing up in this company is the result of that research. From www.sunbiz.org

Florida Profit

ADVANCED COMMUNICATIONS TECHNOLOGIES, INC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS
19200 VON KARMAN AVE.
SUITE 500 OFFICE 32
IRVINE CA 92604
Changed 05/15/2000

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAILING ADDRESS
19200 VON KARMAN AVE.
SUITE 500 OFFICE 32
IRVINE CA 92604
Changed 05/15/2000

Document Number
P97000020967 FEI Number
650738251 Date Filed
03/06/1997
State
FL Status
ACTIVE Effective Date
NONE
Last Event
AMENDMENT AND NAME CHANGE Event Date Filed
06/28/1999 Event Effective Date
NONE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Registered Agent
Name & Address
LICHTMAN, JONATHAN J P.A.
4800 N. FEDERAL HIGHWAY
SUITE D-100
BOCA RATON FL 33431
Name Changed: 04/13/1999
Address Changed: 04/13/1999


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title
MAY, ROGER
19200 VON KARMAN AVE.

IRVINE CA 92604 CEOD
DANSON, WAYNE I
315 W. 57TH ST., SUITE 501

NEW YORK NY 10019 CFOD
ROCHE, WILBANK J
2530 WILSHIRE BLVD., SUITE 200

SANTA MONICA CA 90403-4616 TDO
LICHTMAN, JONATHAN J
4800 N FEDERAL HIGHWAY, D-100

BOCA RATON FL 33431 D
PROUTY, RANDALL
1900 DECKER SCHOOL LANE

MALIBU CA 90265-2339 D
FINCH, MICHAEL R DR.
37 WALNUT ST., 10

WELLESLEY MA 02481 D


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annual Reports Report Year Filed Date Intangible Tax
1998 04/17/1998
1999 06/09/1999 N
2000 05/15/2000

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 21:42:52 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Correction G, re:United Pathways, Inc. and more
Message:
United Pathways was an all premie operation, G. Christia Murphy is Proutty's wife, consort, whatever.
Here they appear in this company...

'Here they appear...'

should read

'Here he appears...' (referring to Randy P.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:22:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Dettmers - Seva
Message:
It appears that Michael Dettmers was the president of Seva Corp. of Florida until its voluntary dissolution in 1989. Also note that Jossi Fresco (m's web master) is also Dettmer's web master.

Florida Profit

SEVA CORPORATION OF FLORIDA

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS
300 71ST ST, STE 405
P O BOX 546724
MIAMI BEACH FL 33154
Changed 03/13/1985

MAILING ADDRESS
300 71ST ST, STE 405
P O BOX 546724
MIAMI BEACH FL 33154
Changed 03/13/1985

Document Number 614741
FEI Number 953335332
Date Filed 03/05/1979
State FL
Status INACTIVE
Effective Date NONE
Last Event VOLUNTARY DISSOLUTION
Event Date Filed 07/05/1989
Event Effective Date NONE

Registered Agent
Name & Address
EXECUCORP MANAGEMENT CONSULTANTS LTD
300 71ST ST, STE 405
MIAMI BEACH FL 33141
Address Changed: 03/13/1985

Officer/Director Detail
Name & Address
Title

DETTMERS, MICHAEL V.
3457 PINEHAVEN CIRCLE
BOCA RATON FL
PD

POTTER, P. D.
300 71ST ST. #405
MIAMI BEACH FL
VD

HOLLE, MARY E.
1865 KEYSTOE BOULEVARD
NORTH MIAMI FL
S

CHRISTIAN, MITCHELL L.
1122 101ST STREET
BAY HARBOR ISLANDS FL
T

JACOBS, ROBERT A.
1 CHASE MANHATTAN PLAZA
NEW YORK, NY.
D

Annual Reports
Report Year, Filed Date, Intangible Tax
1987, 03/25/1987
1988, 06/10/1988
1989, 06/02/1989

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:18:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Dettmers - clients page 'cleaned up'?
Message:
Roger's Corp. Shenanigans page has a link to
http://www.gylanix.com/about_us_clients.html

Well, Dettmers renamed the page to

http://www.gylanix.com/about_us_clients.htm

and gone are the references to premie-related companies as clients. At least I can't see any, could be wrong.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:07:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Dettmers -also cleaned up his resume
Message:
He no longer mentions the 'swiss foundation' (which was really DLM and Elan Vital) on his resume, and he even has a new picture.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 13:16:25 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: G
Subject: mike dettmers the liar.
Message:
Can anyone find out who is organizing the 3 or 5,000 dollar events where premies get a week of programming and get a meeting with the lord.

I say that the deceitful revisionist posts of m dettmers give evidence that.....well, can anyone access and bring those posts back here to the forum?

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 04:17:13 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Just one
Message:
GENDRA BROADCASTING CORPORATION

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS
2800 BISCAYNE BLVD
STE 1100
MIAMI FL 33137
Changed 07/22/1993

MAILING ADDRESS
2800 BISCAYNE BLVD
STE 1100
MIAMI FL 33137
Changed 07/22/1993

Document Number
608680 FEI Number
591885273 Date Filed
02/01/1979
State
FL Status
ACTIVE Effective Date
NONE
Last Event
AMENDMENT Event Date Filed
03/13/1995 Event Effective Date
NONE

Registered Agent
Name & Address
SMITH, LINDA M.
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD
STE 200
MIAMI FL 33181
Name Changed: 06/01/1994
Address Changed: 06/01/1994

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title
LISMAN, CLAUDIO
2800 BISCAYNE BLVD STE 1100
MIAMI FL PD

LISMAN, CELIA
2800 BISCAYNE BLVD STE 1100
MIAMI FL


Premies all. Co. does satellite truck broadcasts etc.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:55:06 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Dettmers - Seva
Message:
No doubt G, the guy was high up in the heirarchy for a long time, in a lot of different key positions.

Lets see now. President of DLM in Canada. Then DLM International.
Execucorps, Deca, Seva-Florida, on the board of Amtext for a while, more recently on the board of Purus until he was pushed out.
Certainly alot he could tell us.
If he ever wanted to.
But I think he needs to speak to a really good lawyer first.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:17:47 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Roger's Corp. Shenanigans page
Message:
There's info on Purus (and other companies) on Roger's Corporate Shenanigans page
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:06:03 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: The Best Way to travel
Message:
Not new info I'm sure, but really should go on Rogers shenanigans site, if only because the Lard's Brother's Girlfriend (wife?) is an officer:

BESTWAY TRAVEL & CONVENTIONS, INC.

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS
420 LINCOLN ROAD
SUITE 359
MIAMI BEACH FL 33139

MAILING ADDRESS
420 LINCOLN ROAD
SUITE 359
MIAMI BEACH FL 33139

Document Number
V19568 FEI Number
650317684 Date Filed
03/09/1992
State
FL Status
ACTIVE Effective Date
NONE

Registered Agent
Name & Address
SMITH, LINDA M
11900 DISCAYNE BLVD
SUITE 200
NORTH MIAMI FL 33181
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title

SCUTARI, PIERO
VIA S MARCO 14 C
TREACCHINA, ITALY TD

DOMINGUEZ, MANUEL JORGE
420 LINCOLN ROAD #359
MIAMI BEACH FL PD

GABRIELLI, NATHALIE
1000 VENETIAN WAY
MIAMI BCH FL V

[guess who else lives there!]

DOMINGUEZ, VANIA
10295 COLLINS AVE 511
MIAMI BEACH FL

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:39:37 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: The Best Way to travel
Message:
Raja ji?

Natalie was/is Raja's girfriend.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:51:54 (GMT)
From: Danny
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: The Best Way to travel
Message:
Excuse me.... knock, knock - is this thing on?

Didn't you people have some sort of semi-honorable policy regarding printing people's phone numbers and/or addresses on the Web for no other conceivable purpose than harassment?

(You might imagine this next sentence in a Basil Fawlty voice) Or are you so caught up in being amateur, fantasy-league, FBI agents that it's escaped your purview?

Rob, I gotta tell ya, you were SO much more interesting, charming and imaginative as Rob, the fake 'inside information' premie, dispensing bogus agya and trying to impress the fair sheilas with your kilts and sensitivity as you rogueishly confounded the ranks of the unwashed with your Zorro-like, dashing displays of imaginary access and insight.

This Rob? What a yawner... ZZzzzzzz Helicopter call numbers, boat licenses in Marseille, faint impressions of Mercedes tracks in the snow outside Newport and half-assed impressions of Jim Heller and his strychnine n' lime cocktails... unfortunately, your epistles read more like an old Sears catalog than a new Don DeLillo or Martin Cruz Smith.

Supposedly, and with you suppose could be just about anything, you're a writer.

This is your work? It's more like a trip to the Department of Motor Vehicles. Time to invent a new Rob!

Time for some serious investigative work... you could grab a Minox or 2 with Joey and photograph various suspects - Michael Dettmers, Jossi Fresco, etc. as they leave their homes or offices.. Ask their neighbors some leading questions... alert their bosses about their secret lives as robotic, mechanical cult SLAVES!! who do only what they're told and are liable to fly to Brussels upon a secret signal at any given moment to to tremble and fawn in the fear-based atmosphere of their transportation and plumbing-fixture-intoxicated Guru. Who spends his every waking hour drinking, scratching and scheming up new ways to extract yet another dollar from video sales in Mauritius and trains squadrons of dull-eyed goons in the arts of deadly assault and global-scale child abuse.

No, the people should take YOUR life as an inspiration. They should, upon reading this, stop doing that which means the most and feels the best to them and...

Start printing other people's addresses on the Internet, endlessly rehash dribble and drivel that you don't know to be true, call the IRS, cops and other government agencies on people that perhaps used to be your friends (or wives or teacher), vilify anyone who disagrees with you, declaim at length on factoids that you don't even remember inventing or regurgitating, speculate on the motives and habits of people you don't even know and, in most cases, have never met... and

Completely forget what it was that felt so right about the whole thing 'cause, sadly, it can't be remembered. It's a bit outside of the bailiwick of memory. Even remembering how it felt to be in love with an old girlfriend is pretty tough. You can only remember faintly that you once DID... and that might very well fade, eventually... or turn sour. In this arena, perhaps the only thing you accurately remember is the sweaty, uncomfortable face of David Smith rambling on about some bus ride and its profound ramifications or some protein-challenged WPC guy in London being stupid, callous and insensitive to a bumbershoot-deprived single mother.

Hell can be found just about anywhere, if you look hard enough for it.

Then, of course, there IS the option of accepting that other people have taken a different fork in the road than you have, or vice-versa. There is even the distant possibility that you might have utterly mis-read some motives.

Or, you can collect names and numbers. Do an Edgar Hoover, you randy sleuth, you. Smoke out the bastards, make it your life's work. Wearing, naturally, the Emperor’s new trench coat and smoking an invisible pipe.

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 16:05:53 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Danny
Subject: My personal policy
Message:
Is to not respond to rabid personal attacks from anybody.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:41:52 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: But just for the record....
Message:
All the names & info in these recent posts are from PUBLIC RECORDS.

For example:

http://ccfcorp.dos.state.fl.us/corpweb/inquiry/corinam.html

Is a PUBLIC RECORDS facility of the Florida Division of Corporations.

Type in Bestway in the search field and you will get to the record which I reproduced above.

If you have a problem with that, I suggest you take it up with Jeb Bush.

Most of the people who file corporate records use a 'convenience' address, usually an attorney. For example, 11900 Biscayne Blvd, Suite 200 is Linda Smith's office, which is why it pops up so many times here (Amtex, Commex etc). If RJ's girlfriend didn't want anyone to know their address, why the fuck did she put it on a PUBLIC RECORD?

You really are too stupid to talk to.

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 05:30:53 (GMT)
From: Deep Stoat
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: But just for the record....
Message:
That's the whole point 'Rob' , you are the only one claiming this info is 'Secret'. Stupid is aword I would reserve for some-one who can't see the obvious. You Qualify.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 06:15:34 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Deep Stoat
Subject: But just for the record....
Message:
Where did I say that, Cat, 'for the record'?

When it comes to seeing the obvious, mate, you fall well short of the mark. You haven't even sussed out that you're trapped in a cult & that you've dedicated X number of years fawning over some bloke who showed you how to stick your thumbs in your ears.

What ISN'T quite so 'obvious' is the intricate web of shell corporations which do a quick wash 'n rinse of the green stuff on it's way to the Malibu Mansion. It's like a huge jigsaw puzzle and one by one we are bringing the pieces onto the table.

The 'secret' info is actually what ought to be filed on Form 990 to the IRS every year, but isn't because they made a bogus claim that they were a church. Do you feel like you're going to church when you go to an event, Cat? Do you feel like part of the congregation? No, neither did I. Funny that, isn't it? All those years ear-bashing people for their beliefs in orthodox religion and the Christian Church and there I was, a member of the Church of Elan Vital and didn't know it!

But once that situation is remedied, Cat, and believe me, it will be, all these seemingly pointless posts will suddenly have a whole new relevance. Stick around and watch the fun!

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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 08:38:25 (GMT)
From: Steep Goat
Email: Look , Look it floats!!!!
To: Rob
Subject: Go Go Gadget Man!
Message:
Ahhh ...come on Rob; find a new girl, get laid. Live up to your fantasy character. To me at the moment you're less of a Jack Nicholson , China-Town clone as a John Candy a la Trains Planes and Automobiles. It's really just a silly little pipe dream, and you are the imagination of the collective masses here.
Fight on Super Hero - in your comic fantasy.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 15:23:34 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Steep Goat
Subject: Go Go Gadget Man!
Message:
Why would I care what I am to you? You give yourself too much credit. Go rent another video.
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Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 19:40:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Which gadgie got going?
Message:
Methinks our guest the premie apologist hath something stuck in his/her craw.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 05:09:00 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Not hard to guess
Message:
Catweasel's all charm and bonhommie when the threads are just philosophical arguments or mutual head-bashing.

He definately gets irate though when any practical information about cult businesses and connections start to emerge. Then he proceeds to attack the originator. Any subsequent offer to discuss the issues are blatantly avoided, in favor of the easier option of shitbagging one of us.

The guy's a real occa, a fair dinkum footy man who's been sat on the premie/ex-premie fence so long his arse has just about reached his brains. Now every time he farts he thinks he's having a revelation of the truth and proceeds to write it down here.

Go away Cat, you're stinking the place out.

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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 07:12:33 (GMT)
From: Topcat
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Not hard to guess
Message:
So really Prince Charming , that's the sum total of your cyphering on this little black duck? I think I may be right about you Rob. I believe you use to prance around in knee high calf skin boots and glance lovingly at yourself in the mirror at your own delightful image.
Occa's- are they an antipodean form of killer whale? Perhaps a vegetable? Now Football, there's an interesting one. Ever watched AFL on ESPN? Yeah I use to play it. At the top level. So tellme Mr Annal retentive, where do the Farts come into the equation? Thats positively Kindergarten Toilet humour. I gave you credit for more. But hone that nastiness, it fits you fits you like glove.
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Date: Wed, Aug 09, 2000 at 14:29:52 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Topcat
Subject: What there's more?
Message:
Fair go mate, I thought I'd covered all your bases. What did I miss? You're not Jim Stynes are you? You gonna be at the IAFC/AFL meeting on the 18th? Save me a cold one. Yeah I watched the Finals, rooted for the Bulldogs. (Oh yeah, 'rooted' in the Yank sense that is!!) What can I say? I love the game, fast, exciting & no pussy body-armor like those NFL drongos have to wear.

OK that's all well and good, but what brings you here? You wanna talk real or just keep bitch-slapping till one of us falls down?

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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:57:50 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@tigerriver.com
To: Danny
Subject: I reposted that
Message:
I've been doing the archiving of the forum. After I ran one today, I noticed that your post wasn't being handled correctly by the software. I gave up trying to figure out why, and just deleted it. The copy above is a repost by me.
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Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:09:28 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: And how about this one G
Message:
DECA FLYING CLUB INC.

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS
P. O. BOX 660175
MIAMI SPRINGS FL 33266

Document Number
768937 FEI Number
000000000 Date Filed
06/15/1983
State
FL Status
INACTIVE Effective Date
NONE
Last Event
INVOLUNTARILY DISSOLVED Event Date Filed
11/21/1984 Event Effective Date
NONE

Registered Agent
Name & Address
FRAZER, ROBERT D.
1337 SHANGRI-LA DRIVE
DAYTONA BEACH FL 32019
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title
TRIPODO, ANTHONY J.
9363 FONTAINBLEAU BLVD
MIAMI FL PD

KEENEY, RICHARD
6220 NW 37TH TERR.
VIRGINIA GDNS FL VD

HOLMES, DENISE
800 WEST AVENUE #346
MIAMI BEACH FL STD

MONTAGUE, TERRY
1900 W. 54TH STREET #106
HIALEAH FL

Anthony Tripodi shows up on a few of Linda Smith's corps., but could be just another lawyer and not related to THE Deca?

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:37:28 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Those quotes!
Message:
Wow, those quotes are, you know, like just so deep, so affirmative! They must be coming from that place ... that clarity ... that understanding.

They're probably all premies, I think I've heard the name Ray Belcher before.

I usually use the Advanced Search at www.altavista.com. As to how I found all this, I used a number of sources, one being knowx.com. Also see www.merlindata.com's Industry Links.

I believe there is only one lawsuit, the UCCs are just filings of debt. However, those tax delinquencies! The IRS doesn't like that! Indeed, I was thinking the same thing, DunWRONG, or 'Dunrite Doing Wrong'. I wonder if they lease anything of Rawat's, and if so, at a fair rate?

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:51:57 (GMT)
From: G-string
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Those quotes!
Message:
About those names-all of them are old time p's, except I'm not sure about McNelly.
Belcher is australian and has been in charge of a lot of m's tours, arriving the day before the operation and taking over.He interviewed m a few times for some videos, which were a pretty pathetic atteempt to look like David Frost interviewing someone important.He's also produced some 'documentary'style videos about m, which were shown at premie video events.One was hysterical, as it proclaimed that m was a 'family man' at heart, preferring to spend all of his free time with wife and kids...LOL
Sinensky is an old time ashramer from the early 70's...didn't know he was such a business whiz...
Emerson is a piece of work!He ran DECA for awhile and was actually quite funny, as he didn't buy the company line too much and pretty much told the truth, which at times was quite entertaining...He supposedly worked in Nazi Germany, doing some sort of business and possibly spying during WWII-very interesting fellow, older,lots of business experience.He supposedly worked for LOWES lumber company before DECA, and made about 2 million in a year-he would go into small communities,drop the building material prices way down, drive the local 'mom and pop' competitors out of buxiness in a year or two, then go back and raise prices once the compettition was bankrupt and they had a monopoly in the area...
Fresco-I've heard the name, but not sure who it is....
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:00:29 (GMT)
From: look up his url
Email: None
To: G-string
Subject: he's the stupid web designer for M
Message:
can't imagine why you don't know him!
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:09:53 (GMT)
From: all about Jossi
Email: None
To: all
Subject: oh - sorry here it is
Message:
http://www.workareas.com/about.htm
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 21:08:42 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: G-string
Subject: What Ray needed was a bex and a good lie down
Message:
I saw him at amaroo a few years ago, he got up and spoke at a conference, I don't know how he did it he was shaking so badly. He had 'fallen from grace' done something to upset the mighty mouse and was at that time, I think, partially forgiven.

NB 'Bex and a good lie down' was the Australian housewife's way of coping until Bex was withdrawn from over the counter sale because it was addictive. Apart from the odd crazed aussie mum feeding arsenic laced lamingtons to koalas, society recovered!

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 06:58:59 (GMT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Those quotes!
Message:
Hi G, Rob,
Did you have a typo when you wrote Jossi's words of wisdumb?
Was it 'exploitation' rather than 'exploration'?
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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 16:29:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital - Canada
Message:
At Elan Vital's Canadian web site they claim:
'Elan Vital is a charitable organization. It is funded by Canadians who want to help Maharaji in his efforts to communicate a message to individuals throughout the world.'
'Elan Vital, incorporated in Canada in 1973, is a registered charitable organization that sponsors events and conferences throughout Canada.'
'Maharaji receives no compensation...'
'Admission to events sponsored by Elan Vital is free of charge. Administration costs are sometimes covered by optional processing fees for advanced registration. ...'

Here is some public info on Elan Vital in Canada:
Source:
Canada Public Records - Nationwide
  Canada - Federal Corporations Data On-line
    Elan Vital

Corporation #0410730
Corporation Name(s): ELAN VITAL
Old Name(s) and Change Date(s): DIVINE LIGHT MISSION OF CANADA - 1986/09/29

Mailing Address: [Latest address on file]
Care of:
Street: STATION B C.P. 727
Location: MONTREAL
Province: Quebec
Postal Code: H3B3K3
Country: Canada

Registered Office Address: [Latest address on file]
Care of:
Street: STATION J PO BOX 550
Location: TORONTO
Province: Ontario
Postal Code: M4J4Z2
Country: Canada

Location: MUN METRO TORONTO
Country: Canada
Reg. Off. Eff: 1973/06/04

Status Active
Date 1973/06/04

ACT Name: Canada Corporations Act - Part II Proxy:
Incorporation: 1973/06/04
Anniversary: 1973/06/04
Update: 2000/06/05
Prospectus:
Amalgamation:
Take Over:
Continuance:
Revival:
Intent to Dissolve:
Revocation of Intent:
Import: -
Export: -

Directors:
---------

Current: 3 Effective: 1982/03/31
Min: 3 Last Amendment:
Max: 3

Director(s) name(s) and address(es):

Georges Légère 1391 Du Relais Ste-Dorothée Laval Quebec H7Y1Z7 Canada
Alain Lachance 162 Franc Morin Heigths Quebec J0R2N6 Canada
Marcel Allaire 2260 Clifton Montreal Quebec H4A2N6 Canada

Annual Return/Annual Summary(AR/AS):
-----------------------------------

Number of Shareholders:
Annual Meeting (Last): 1999/06/30
Enforcement Code:
Enforcement Date:
Taxation Year End:

AR/AS Filed:
Received - with Fee - 2000/06/04
Received - with Fee - 1999/06/04
Received - with Fee - 1998/06/04

Financial: Financial reports are only available for distributing corporations
Amalgamations: No amalgamation information for this corporation.
Parent/Subsidiary: No parent/subsidiary information for this corporation.

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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 20:11:21 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Elan Vital - Canada
Message:
I wonder if the optional processing fee's are at EV's opion or the attendee's option? I wonder if all the seats were given to people who paid optional proceesing fees would a stranger be allowed in for free?
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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 23:41:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: 'optional' processing fees
Message:
Good questions. The events in the recent North American tour were kept deliberately small. What's to keep them from giving preference to the highest bidders? Besides, it only takes a perception of competition to get people to 'donate'. They also made the process involved, so people (like ex's) who weren't motivated, and therefore likely to 'donate', wouldn't bother. Once all the seats are reserved, nobody else gets in.

I suppose a pwkie could listen to a broadcast for free or for less money in Phase II if they could find a naughty pwkie friend that would let them either see it at their home for free or offer to split the price. My guess is that most pwkies wouldn't go for that.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 01:18:15 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'optional' processing fees
Message:
My real reason for asking was to see if there was a chink in the armor-anybody been denied access to a hall that wasn't full because a processing fee wasn't paid? See if its optional to the 'visitor' then no one should be denied access for monetary reasons. it would be nice to know if premies or ex's have been denied because of money.
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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 10:20:37 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: all
Subject: 'optional' processing fees
Message:
Hi,

I don't understand how can Elan Vital be a church, providing public services, when you have to have a smart card to get in his programs or to use their 'services'? Why it says that you don't have a membership when THERE IS ONE: Without a smart card you can't have access to Lard.

And what are the 'services' Lard provides? Isn't there enough proof in his satsangs that he used/uses mental manipulation to mantain people in his cult? He provides the services of driving some people insane to the point of suicide? Filling their brains with stupidity ONLY to keep them in the cult? And what about the fatc that we have lots of proof that he believes he's the 'LARD' and he had convinced his followers (with fear) to stay in the cult? His satsangs speak for themselves!

Why Elan Vital/mahalard says that it's free when communities around the world were pressured by Elan Vital FOR MANY YEARS to have a good complete video library, even providing the titles of the videos each community needed to have to propagate knowledge? Ex: Intro videos, aspirants,people with knowledge? I provided JM with all the documentation about videos which proves what I just mentioned.

Are we going to explain this inconsistencies to the IRS?

SB

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