Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 14:50:55 (GMT)
From: Aug 02, 2000 To: Aug 10, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


no_one_special -:- M Dettmers and The DEAL -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 13:18:22 (GMT)
__ me neither -:- M Dettmers and The DEAL -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 13:36:45 (GMT)
__ __ no_one_special -:- M Dettmers and The DEAL -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:04:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Bingo, baby, you hit the nail on the head. -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 15:34:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Not so sure.... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 00:44:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Not so sure.... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 02:48:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- Not so sure.... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 02:04:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Not so sure.... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:23:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Over-reaction and speculation -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:31:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Over-reaction and speculation -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:27:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- Not so sure.... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 17:43:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Not so sure.... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 18:32:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Also... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:32:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- A regretable understanding -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:03:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- A regretable understanding -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:39:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- How So? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 19:30:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- How So? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 19:45:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- How So? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 21:17:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- How So? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 21:32:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Sheesh I forgot that 'y' again -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 21:35:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ just curious -:- A regretable understanding -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:11:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- A regretable understanding -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:37:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- A regretable understanding -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:35:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- A regretable understanding -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:11:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- A regretable understanding -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:27:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- A regretable understanding -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:38:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- But hopefully we can agree on this, JOE... -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 21:11:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- But hopefully we can agree on this, JOE... -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 21:21:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- A regretable understanding-1more point -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:11:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Sorry , above post from Joey and not Joe... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:42:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Sorry , above post from Joey and not Joe... -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:47:32 (GMT)

EddyTheTurtle -:- What kind of Power does he have? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 13:07:44 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- What kind of Power does he have? - precious little -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 17:36:49 (GMT)
__ G -:- out of thin air? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 17:31:51 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- yeah but how 'bout that hairdo? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 03:10:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sb -:- yeah but how 'bout that hairdo? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:46:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- that hairdo, another Sai Baba -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 07:12:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- Chia Baba -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 14:25:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Chia Clown - Sai Baba resemblance -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:51:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- G you are cracking me up -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:31:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- hi SB and G -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 16:00:20 (GMT)
__ Anon -:- What kind of Power does he have? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:27:44 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- What kind of Power does he have? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 13:43:29 (GMT)
__ __ TeddyTheTurtle -:- What kind of Power does he have? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:00:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- What kind of Power does he have? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 19:55:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- What kind of Power does he have? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 15:03:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Rob -:- The Devil's Advocate? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:33:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Not this, Not that -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 01:41:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- An explanation for the voice -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 17:45:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- Psst..wanna buy a mala? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 21:49:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- spplliiitt -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 00:20:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- spplliiitt -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:48:38 (GMT)

Jim -:- La plus things change ........ -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:32:11 (GMT)
__ Shroomananda -:- According to your journey entry, you began weaning -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 08:20:30 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- According to YOUR own words, shroomie -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 08:50:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Was I talking to YOU, Jo-ey? No, I wasn't, but -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 16:31:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Michael -:- Was I talking to YOU, Jo-ey? No, I wasn't, but -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 22:28:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I don't know about you, but I never did any -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 07:19:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- I don't know about you, but I never did any -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 18:16:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- 'The Gift': the old give and take...and take -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:15:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- 'The Gift': the old give and take...and take -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:39:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- BTW Michael, re: Robert Cialdini's book -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:56:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- I don't know about you, but I never did any -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 10:35:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Was I talking to YOU, Jo-ey? No, I wasn't, but -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 20:17:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I do intend to enjoy his 'free' gift. I guess -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 07:31:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I do intend to enjoy his 'free' gift. I guess -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 12:49:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I don't know if God opens some eyes and not -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 23:49:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I don't know if God opens some eyes and not -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 00:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I'm happy whether I come or not! How about you? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:47:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Personally, I'd rather come -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:36:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- Maybe you're right, Jerry. Maybe there is no God -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:58:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Strange words for a premie -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 05:14:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- There is no God, Jerry. You should know that by -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 07:17:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- There is no God, Jerry. You should know that by -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:56:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Michael -:- The Past Perfect Master thang is a sham. -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:53:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ sb -:- You like MISTERY, eh? (nt) -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 00:49:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- I do intend to enjoy his 'free' gift. I guess -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 10:06:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- I'm not impressed with Indian statistics, Hal, but -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 00:01:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Maha said that ???' -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 09:35:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- I'm not impressed with Indian statistics, Hal, but -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:41:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Shroomananda -:- You talk like an expert.What are YOUR credentials? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:32:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Satpal's web site -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:51:11 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Well, Maybe... -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:47:55 (GMT)
__ __ Lotus Eater -:- why premies don't post on elk -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 01:03:50 (GMT)

Joe -:- The Maharaji Effect in Slickville -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:58:28 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- The Maharaji Effect in Slickville -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 21:49:29 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Who made it up/Enjoyinglife censorship -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:23:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ David Roha -:- If you want someone not to believe you, tell the -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 12:35:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- All right which one of you guys made this one up? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 23:53:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- All right which one of you guys made this one up? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 09:46:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Carol -:- Hi Gerry -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 02:03:38 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- The Maharaji Effect in Slickville -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 21:06:14 (GMT)
__ __ gErRy -:- Janice needs an enema... -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:36:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- Maddy told Haddy -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 03:25:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gErRy -:- Don't miss this one !!! -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 03:54:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- You are so bad... -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 02:07:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- I love the sound of cyberTSK in the morning -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 02:49:25 (GMT)

SB -:- How Lard do the PROGRAMMING/BRAINWASHING, here -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 14:53:45 (GMT)
__ G -:- 'doubt' said 48 times -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 01:10:46 (GMT)
__ O -:- Or is it teaching?? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:46:18 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Or is it teaching?? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:14:46 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- O, it's teaching you to obey -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:20:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ sb -:- O, it's teaching you to obey -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 10:24:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hi SB -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:33:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Hi SB (ot) -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 15:07:17 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Learning v. testing what you have learned. -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 23:04:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ O -:- Learning v. testing what you have learned. -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:06:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Learning v. testing what you have learned. -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 00:59:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- 'infantile explanations' -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:21:21 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You stupid premie, you! -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:56:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ O -:- Stick and stones... -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:11:02 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Prepare to prepare and don't you doubt it! -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:35:52 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Rama came -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- The sexual overtones.......of the cult -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:36:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ G -:- a pick-up line -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:58:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- a pick-up line -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:04:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- no offense intended -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:37:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tami Rainbow -:- no offense intended -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:25:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- LOL Tami! -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:33:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hey, I'm a blonde! (way, WAY, ot) -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 15:31:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tami R. -:- Hi Stoner -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:41:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Hi Tammy Reinglo! -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Hi Tammy Reinglo! -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:06:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Now you know how we feel when Tami gets going! ot -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:39:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Now you know how we feel when Tami gets going! ot -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:44:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Glad I finally made it back! (ot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:51:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Glad I finally made it back! (ot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 15:49:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Glad I finally made it back! (ot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- hey Stonor -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:59:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- no offense intended -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:39:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tami Rainbow -:- no offense intended -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:42:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Not rainbow coloured? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:17:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Not rainbow coloured?(Ot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:13:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- 'Dishwater' blonde is what I say -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:29:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Dishwater IS dirty if you wash your dishes in it! -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:42:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Well, you and G started it! (WAY OT) -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 19:07:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Well, you and G started it! (WAY OT) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:20:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Right on, sister! (ot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:29:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Minnesota Housewife -:- Right on, sister! (ot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:40:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Know WAI! Itt wuz TAMMEE!!! (OT) -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 20:10:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- big asses (OOT) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 00:05:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- big asses (OOT) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:07:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- big asses (OOT) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:03:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Now how did I manage that? -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:13:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Only ONE song? -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:39:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- I think I heard something about it . . . -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:49:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Vamos a la Playa? -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:13:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Vamos a la Playa? -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:26:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- big asses (OOT) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:27:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Kiss (OOT) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:55:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Gene Simmons' tongue is like a giraffe's!! -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 16:02:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- I'll email you (nt) -:- Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 03:23:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Y'all are WAY out of hand (oot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 01:41:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Y'all are WAY out of hand (oot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:43:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Y'all are WAY out of hand (oot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:33:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Y'all are WAY out of hand (oot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:18:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Y'all are WAY out of hand (oot) -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 15:57:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- no offense intended -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 01:58:56 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- goober deconstructed -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:43:32 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- goober deconstructed -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:29:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- 'All the sincerity money can buy': LOL (nt) -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:28:05 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- How Lard do the PROGRAMMING/BRAINWASHING, here -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:04:05 (GMT)
__ __ SB -:- Amen -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:35:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- Do I detect rotting vegetables ??? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:47:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Do I detect rotting vegetables ??? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:31:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- the rotten turnip is just a pile of fly blown dung -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:55:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You're all wrong -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:05:07 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- EV's absolutely right! HE DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THIS -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 13:54:35 (GMT)
__ Rob -:- Actually that could all backfire -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 03:22:01 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Too much service can be bad for you -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 06:09:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- YOUR service is good! -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 12:06:08 (GMT)
__ EddyTheTurtle -:- EV's absolutely right! HE DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THIS -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 14:02:48 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- EV's absolutely right! HE DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THIS -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 15:02:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ EddyTheTurtle -:- EV's absolutely right! HE DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THIS -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:53:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- EV's absolutely right! HE DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THIS -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:01:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Wanna see the Annual Reports? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 12:28:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Wanna see the Annual Reports? -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 15:43:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- It might be possible -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:18:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- It might be possible -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:52:38 (GMT)


Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 13:18:22 (GMT)
From: no_one_special
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: M Dettmers and The DEAL
Message:
Mr Dettmers certainly has special Info.....but why would he want to share it with us anyway or the public...

Look at it this way...the Info he has is power...negotiating power with M..look here..I can go and spill the beans on you..and the show will be over...why dont you be a smart guy and talk things over with me....here is the deal:

I keep quite.....and you scratch my hand now and then....now isnt that great ..we both win...I win and you win..and we keep the fools at bay...OK thats a deal...

Perhaps you can ask Claudia...Rajaji's ex why she is quite as well...she knows a hell lot more than Michael Dettmers

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 13:36:45 (GMT)
From: me neither
Email: None
To: no_one_special
Subject: M Dettmers and The DEAL
Message:
Are you suggesting that Lard paid Dettmers to shut his mouth?

I'm sure rajajishi has something to say too. Or do you think he is a devotee?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:04:38 (GMT)
From: no_one_special
Email: None
To: me neither
Subject: M Dettmers and The DEAL
Message:
RajaJi is his brother...he will never spill the beans....that would go against his Indian culture...tantamount to Total betrayal...

Dettmers..I dont know for sure..but I am only speculating....Why would the guy keep quite.....well the only other issue..is Fear...Fear that something might happen to him..or fear that he maybe wrong and may end up in hell or some kind of psyhological fear like that....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 15:34:56 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: no_one_special
Subject: Bingo, baby, you hit the nail on the head.
Message:
....Why would the guy keep quite.....well the only other issue..is Fear...Fear that something might happen to him.

Exactly. And that's why he has NO negotiating power with the cult, because he's stuck in his fear. Fear of physical harm to him and his loved ones, fear of financial ruin, both of which he knows damn well the cult is more than capable of inflicting on a guy like him who speaks up.
On the other hand, if he brings the information forward that would be so damaging to m and the cult, sparking an IRS investigation, he himself would become a subject of that investigation. That's something to fear as well.

Therefore Dettmers is a guy stuck between a rock and a hard place. Those guys don't have power. They have to serve the intersts of power to save their own arseholes, and in this case the power is M. Totally corrupt power, for sure, but hey, it seems that Dettmers can live with it.

Like I said, if he has any conscience, any courage...he'll get himself a lawyer and do the right thing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 00:44:07 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Not so sure....
Message:
I never heard Michael say he is afraid of anyone. And, honestly, I've never seen a tendency for violence in the Maharaji cult, other than by that wacko Fakiranand and everyone who knew Fakiranand knows he was a wacko. So, I doubt there is much fear of physical violence by PAMs who are no longer following Maharaji.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 02:48:21 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Not so sure....
Message:
I never heard Michael say he is afraid of anyone.

Would you honestly expect him to admit it? Personally, I don't see how he much honesty he displayed here to begin with, when he made his appearance on the forum.

So, I doubt there is much fear of physical violence by PAMs who are no longer following Maharaji.

There's an ex-premie here in Montreal by the name of Jean- Francois Payette who left the cult sometime in the latter 80's.
Around, the early 90's, JP as he's more commonly known, did some media interviews on a couple of radio stations and in a couple of newspapers speaking out against m and the cult.
He was threatened on two occasions when he ran into premies on the street. Once by former Montreal DUO coordinator, Claude Bourgeois, who told JP to be careful-'accidents can always happen.' On another occasion by premie junkie, thief and wacknut Jeff Riven who told him,'if you keep it up, don't be surprised if someone breaks your legs.'

I've mentioned this before on these pages. JP has given me permission to mention these incidents on the forum although he has no intention of getting caught up in posting here himself.
He leads a busy life and is still volunteering his time at the Info Cult office in Montreal researching some of the many cults that keep popping up here, especially in the province of Quebec.

While no violence ever actually happened, the threats were there.
And often enough, threats can often serve as the prelude to violence.

One more thing, JP was no pam, just an ordinary premie who lived in the ashram for around 8-9 years. He even lived in the ashram with Jim...I believe in Ottawa.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 02:04:52 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Not so sure....
Message:
Yeah, I was a bit taken aback to read about the 'dangers of leaving the cult and threats to children' and so forth. I've never heard of any such thing in DLM. Anyone have any actual examples? I think our case is stronger if we are accurate. Mind you, I said for years that although I didn't like MJ any more, he wasn't one of those gurus that fucked their devotees. Little did I know until reading here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:23:19 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Not so sure....
Message:
Yeah, I was a bit taken aback to read about the 'dangers of leaving the cult and threats to children' and so forth.

I didn't speak of actual 'dangers of leaving the cult' as you expressed it above. My statement concerned the 'fear' of those dangers.

'Fear of physical harm to him and his loved ones, fear of financial ruin...'

AND threats, however subtle they're made, can instill that fear which would serve as an inhibiting or preventive force for a former cult member to speak out against his/her former cult. And I believe the higher up one was in the cult's heirarchy the greater would be the threat against speaking out and consequently the fear as well.

That's what I meant, and I don't believe it's irresponsible state it.

Please keep in mind that the threats made against my friend here in Montreal were made some 20 years after the Fakiranand incident. Also he was a 'low level' premie so to speak, with hardly the kind of damaging info that Dettmers would have.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:31:54 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Over-reaction and speculation
Message:
Well that threat is regrettable, but I still maintain that other can a couple of isolated threats, and, as you admit, one of them was by a 'wingnut' who exist in every organization, I have yet to hear of even on violent incident of any kind, other than Fakiranand, another certifiable, nut.

I also think the domestic problems Katie is talking about are real, or can be real, regarding children, custody disputes, etc., which, if they are already having problems, the differing views about Maharaji can add to them. But that is very different than violence or threats of violence.

Again, it is remarkable that there have been so few threats. You are the first person, Joey, that I have heard even mention them at all, and even in those cases it sounds like more idle threats than anything serious.

Clearly, if Michael Dettmers feared for his physical safety that would have been an excellent reason to remain anonymous, but then, as you know, he DIDN'T remain anonymous, but actually posted publicly that he was no longer a premie and had had a disagreement with Maharaji about something pretty basic, about Maharaji continuing on the path of playing god. Again, I never got any indication that Dettmers fears for his safety, given the track record of this cult, I don't think he does, and if he did he wouldn't have publicly said anything at all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:27:10 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Over-reaction and speculation
Message:
Again, it is remarkable that there have been so few threats. You are the first person, Joey, that I have heard even mention them at all, and even in those cases it sounds like more idle threats than anything serious.

Again, Joe, I'd like to point out that these threats happenned to a low level premie and that someone like Dettmers would find himself in a situation where the stakes were even greater.

Clearly, if Michael Dettmers feared for his physical safety that would have been an excellent reason to remain anonymous, but then, as you know, he DIDN'T remain anonymous...

Not if he wanted to maintain credibility so that he could play an effective role as a 'mediator' between exes and m in a situation that would serve m's interests more than it would serve our own.

... but actually posted publicly that he was no longer a premie and had had a disagreement with Maharaji about something pretty basic, about Maharaji continuing on the path of playing god.

Sorry but like I said, bill has already printed some satsang that Dettmers had spouted that took place exactly during that period Dettmers was trying to get m away from playing God. And I have a story from circa 1980 that would indicate that Dettmers was more into m's god routine than m himself.

. Again, I never got any indication that Dettmers fears for his safety, given the track record of this cult, I don't think he does, and if he did he wouldn't have publicly said anything at all.

I also spoke about financial repercussions.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 17:43:22 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Not so sure....
Message:
Thanks for the clarification. I think I missed your story aabout the recent threats. Would you be willing to repeat or repost it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 18:32:54 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Not so sure....
Message:

I HAVE just repeated it. Read my post above in this very thread, in response to Joe. OR, even better here it is again from my post,
Joey -:- Not so sure.... -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 22:48:21,

There's an ex-premie here in Montreal by the name of Jean- Francois Payette who left the cult sometime in the latter 80's.
Around, the early 90's, JP as he's more commonly known, did some media interviews on a couple of radio stations and in a couple of newspapers speaking out against m and the cult.
He was threatened on two occasions when he ran into premies on the street. Once by former Montreal DUO coordinator, Claude Bourgeois, who told JP to be careful-'accidents can always happen.' On another occasion by premie junkie, thief and wacknut Jeff Riven who told him,'if you keep it up, don't be surprised if someone breaks your legs.'

I've mentioned this before on these pages. JP has given me permission to mention these incidents on the forum although he has no intention of getting caught up in posting here himself.
He leads a busy life and is still volunteering his time at the Info Cult office in Montreal researching some of the many cults that keep popping up here, especially in the province of Quebec.

While no violence ever actually happened, the threats were there.
And often enough, threats can often serve as the prelude to violence.

One more thing, JP was no pam, just an ordinary premie who lived in the ashram for around 8-9 years. He even lived in the ashram with Jim...I believe in Ottawa.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:32:23 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Joey and Lurkex
Subject: Also...
Message:
The ex-premies I know who have the most fear for their children are those who have joint, or shared, custody with premie ex-spouses. This is a real concern, since, as I'm sure both of you know, court battles for custody can be gruesome even if you win them. There's also the fear of kidnapping to deal with.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:03:48 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: A regretable understanding
Message:
If it means protecting loved ones, such as children, partner or relatives who are completely innocent, then there is a reason for not speaking out against Maharaji.

That's a dilemma which many people are up against. Nobody wants to put their own children at risk and for me personally, I would put mine first before any desire to expose Maharaji if I thought that exposing him could harm my children in some way.

Of course, I don't have a business empire to lose (well, only a small one), like Mike Dettmers. That's another good reason to keep shtum. And he could easily think that rather than make waves, it would be better for his family, business and employees if he just let sleeping dogs lie. I can understand that although it is regretable.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:39:45 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: A regretable understanding
Message:
That's another good reason to keep shtum.

Not only, another reason to keep shtum, but in Dettmers case he probably believes that he has more to gain by helping m lull his opponents into some kind of softening of their criticisms, to take the steam out of the opposition against m; because if it gathers steam resulting in others come forward with significant information that could spark an IRS investigation- well, thats the last thing Dettmers wants to see, for reasons I already mentioned. Any IRS investigation on DLM-EV would most probably lead to Dettmers being a subject of the investigation himself.
IMO, he'd be thrown to the wolves in an effort to save m's arse and the arses of others who m considers to have been more loyal to him over the years.
Again, I repeat that Dettmers was pushed out of the inner core of PAMdom and that was made clear to me at the amtext party I attended in May 96. Not only that, rumours of Dettmers embezzling money from the cult and a statement by Ann Johnson when I asked her about Dettmers made it very clear to me that something had gone wrong with his standing in the cult.
When I asked her, Ann turned her face away from me, indicating that she didn't want me to pry further, and she said:
'Michael's done a bad thing to Maharaji, Joey.'
IMO, that's why he's on very shaky grounds these days and sees his intersts being served by helping m dupe his opponents into ineffectiveness.
No way, can he be considered a suitable mediator or negotiator of the concerns of exes. That's a joke.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 19:30:21 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: How So?
Message:
Again, I repeat that Dettmers was pushed out of the inner core of PAMdom and that was made clear to me at the amtext party I attended in May 96.

This does conflict with what Dettmers did say, in which he implied that he and Maharaji had a mutual agreement that they should part ways. What do you mean 'pushed out?'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 19:45:27 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: How So?
Message:
Joe,

You keep on repeating what Dettmers had to say. I heard he what he had to say and I kept quiet THEN, so that you could draw as much out of him as possible.

But when he comes back here and I hope he does, I'll address what I've heard directly to him, and my sources as well. If he wants to dissmiss it as gossip and innuendo, that'll be his choice.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 21:17:51 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: How So?
Message:
Joey, I think it's safe to assume that anything you say here is 'directly to him.' I am quite certain he is monitoring this forum frequently. Indeed, I think I am having a conversation with him, of sorts.

So, I think it would be helpful to puts any cards you have on the table. There is something to be said for just laying things out. Dettmers or anyone else is free to come here and comment on it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 21:32:38 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: How So?
Message:
Sorry, Joe...I'd still rather wait till he's here himself and making himself available to respond directly.

As far as laying cards out on the table, i'm not the only one who feels that he didn't completely lay HIS cards out on the table the last time he was here.

Didn't you say yourself that what he had to say was rather incomplete?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 21:35:45 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sheesh I forgot that 'y' again
Message:
Joe -:- How So? -:- Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:32:38

was really from me -JOEY

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:11:14 (GMT)
From: just curious
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: A regretable understanding
Message:
Is there anyone who might know more about what michael Dettmers might have done to m?
Coming from ann Johnson, it might have actually been something like MD actually telling m that he was full of shit, or to drop the 'god' routine-that could easily be perceived as 'heresy' by many premies...
I never heard about embezzling..I think that's not too likely..
I have heard that MD was critical of m, the 'god' routine, the ashrams,the cultishness of the organization, m's superiority attitude...he also said that m was extremely wealthy back in the late 70's-early 80's...I think he had recommendations to m that m never took, and after a while he got real fed up and left..
I heard he told m that he was 'destined for irrelevance' and left...also, that once you leave the inner circle, you leave for good, and are not welcomed back...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:37:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: just curious
Subject: A regretable understanding
Message:
I never heard about embezzling..I think that's not too likely..

I heard that rumour from two different sources. And as Joe has often pointed out, with our former cult, 'where there's smoke there's usually fire.'

Coming from ann Johnson, it might have actually been something like MD actually telling m that he was full of shit, or to drop the 'god' routine-that could easily be perceived as 'heresy' by many premies...

Well if you want to get the truth from Ann Johnson these days you better put her on a polygraph

I have heard that MD was critical of m, the 'god' routine, the ashrams,the cultishness of the organization, m's superiority attitude...

Oh ya, if he was so critical of 'm's god routine' beginning around 77 as he told us the last time he was here then I have a story of how on at least one occasion, Dettmers was more into m's god routine than m himself. I'll save it for when he comes back here. Not to mention that his own satsang from those days would contradict that as bb has already shown.

I think he had recommendations to m that m never took, and after a while he got real fed up and left..
I heard he told m that he was 'destined for irrelevance' and left...also, that once you leave the inner circle, you leave for good, and are not welcomed back...

That's not the way I heard it. The way I heard it, he was pushed out, in an internal pam power struggle.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 17:35:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: A regretable understanding
Message:
This is the 'real Joe' :))

Well, Joey, also keep in mind that the cult has used the allegation of embezzlement before to discredit people who have spoken out against them. One, in particular who posted on the forum comes to mind. So I would take the embezzlement rumors with a grain of salt.

And I would take ANYTHING Anne Johnston says with a grain of salt, maybe a whole point. To Anne, somebody who disagreed of simply disrespected Maharaji, from her demeneted point of view, would be doing a 'terrible thing.' So I wouldn't be too impressed by that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:11:33 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A regretable understanding
Message:
Well, Joey, also keep in mind that the cult has used the allegation of embezzlement before to discredit people who have spoken out against them. One, in particular who posted on the forum comes to mind. So I would take the embezzlement rumors with a grain of salt.

This wasn't the cult using allegation of embezzlemant to discredit people. We're talking about rumours I heard from a couple of people here in Montreal, where Dettmers is originally from. As you yourself have said in the past in terms of this stinking little cult: 'where there's smoke there's usually fire.'

And I would take ANYTHING Anne Johnston says with a grain of salt, maybe a whole point.

I DO take what she has to say with a grain of salt, and I know her well enough to distinguish where she may be telling the truth and where she may be lying.
Eg. I never believed her version of the Fakiranand story and I said so on forum. She tried to convince me that m had told Fakiranand 'I don't you want to hurt that man,' but I came away from her story believing that there's a strong possibility that m may have actually incited him to into acting the way he did.

To Anne, somebody who disagreed of simply disrespected Maharaji, from her demeneted point of view, would be doing a 'terrible thing.'

No doubt, you're right there. But again knowing Ann as I do, IMO, THAT is something she would have talked about. Stealing money from m is something she wouldn't.

BTW, based on his performance here, I think you might start taking what Dettmers has to say with a grain of salt and start reading between the lines yourself.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:27:05 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: A regretable understanding
Message:
Regarding rumors of embezzlement, my point was you don't know who started the rumors and for what reason. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying they might be to discredit someone with information, not because it actually happened.

I take what Dettmers said here and on the forum at face value, because there was nothing in it inconsistent with what we already know to be true. I just think what he said is very incomplete.

I do not, however, believe he is any part of a conspiracy to defend Maharaji or help him out with ex-premie criticism.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 18:38:53 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A regretable understanding
Message:
I guess we've arrived at a point of disagreement.

I DON'T take what Dettmers has said on this forum at face value, and I DO believe that he could be very well involved in an effort to help m in terms of softening the opposition coming from exes on this forum.

I do applaud however your efforts to reach out to him. perhaps next time he'll be able to offer us something a little more than the 'incomplete' stuff we got last time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 21:11:50 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: But hopefully we can agree on this, JOE...
Message:
...that the next vice president of the United States will be a 'Joe':)

I wonder if he ever gets called 'Joey' ? :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 21:21:08 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: But hopefully we can agree on this, JOE...
Message:
Okay, I get your opinion re Dettmers. I think I disagree, though. I guess we will see if he resurfaces.

Regarding the future vice president, the polls don't look very promising at the moment for Joe, but there are 3 months till election day, so things can change.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:11:50 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: A regretable understanding-1more point
Message:
if he was so critical of 'm's god routine' beginning around 77 as he told us the last time he was here then I have a story of how on at least one occasion, Dettmers was more into m's god routine than m himself. I'll save it for when he comes back here...

That story takes place in the early 80's.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:42:24 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Sorry , above post from Joey and not Joe...
Message:
I forgot the 'y'. guess it was bound to happen sooner or later:)
I sometimes go by the name 'Joe' as well.
It's whatever people feel comfortable with. But I'll keep it 'Joey' here. we already gotta 'Joe'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:47:32 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Sorry , above post from Joey and not Joe...
Message:
Oy, i'm getting a little fatigued here this evening.
Just so its clear the post in question is
A regretable understanding -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 23:37:13

There that should do it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 13:07:44 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What kind of Power does he have?
Message:
He certainly has power...power to attract people, and power to mesmerise people....power to perswade people like he perswaded you and me...and much stronger power then that which I have experienced on a personal level on many times...

The question is what kind of power is it?

Is it the power of Light or the power of Darkness....both these powers exist..

When he says that a voice came to him when he was only 4 and told him 'you are he...you must bring this knowledge to this world'....yes maybe he did hear this voice....but the power of Lucifer also speaks to men in many languages and tones...

Look at Sai Baba...well he also clais he is 'very very special elavating himself to the station of an incarnation'...and he also has power to mesmerise people and materialise things out of thin air...and these are no kind of tricks...I got it from a direct account ...

So each one of us has to decide or has already decided what kind of power it is...

I cant but quote a line from the new testament (even though I am not a christian)...That many will come in my name and show you great wonders of light etc....

I think if you want to really understand how M has such a great power and influence over so many people....you have to understand that he has been given this power as a special gift...the Question is BY WHOM??????????????????

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 17:36:49 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: What kind of Power does he have? - precious little
Message:
Sai Baba is a simple magician. Those are ordinary magic tricks. He's been seen getting the rings and watches from underneath a cloth. Now where is that web site all about Sai Baba and his sexual abuse of young boys and fake magic tricks? Someone put a link to it here a few weeks ago.

Maharaji is not very persuasive to most people and for myself, I found him very unpersuasive and really off-putting. It was only other premies who kept me in the cult and the fact that I thought Maharaji was God, which troubled me because in person, I didn't feel at ease with him.

Recently I saw that video clip on the EV web site where Maharaji denies saying he was God. I found him even more objectionable and shallow than before.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 17:31:51 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: out of thin air?
Message:

Look at Sai Baba...well he also clais he is 'very very special elavating himself to the station of an incarnation'...and he also has power to mesmerise people and materialise things out of thin air...and these are no kind of tricks...I got it from a direct account ...

At a web site for Sai Baba ex's (I can supply links), an ex-devotee described going to a jewelry shop where watches were made for Sai Baba, watches that Sai Baba supposedly materialised out of thin air. Prior to that, the ex was convinced of these supposed materialisations. Another ex spotted Sai Baba deftly pulling something out of a sleeve. Sai Baba often wears clothes with loose sleeves. Sounds like standard magic tricks to me, why think otherwise just because of a direct account of what seemed real? I've seen magic tricks on TV (and one time at a program with m). They seem so real, and they seem impossible to fake. I've also seen some tricks revealed, and then thought 'Oh, so that's how they do it.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 03:10:29 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: yeah but how 'bout that hairdo?
Message:
I died laughing when Sir Dave posted a link to the Sai Baba home page a while back.
Thought it was a joke.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 12:46:20 (GMT)
From: Sb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yeah but how 'bout that hairdo?
Message:
maybe he has a Michael Jackson complex.

How was the vacation????

;)

Love,

S

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 07:12:33 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: that hairdo, another Sai Baba
Message:
yeah but how 'bout that hairdo?

Well, maybe that's evidence of supernatural power. I mean, how else could you explain it? It looks so unreal.

Another Sai Baba, Shirdi Sai Baba (warning: takes a while to load) extra warning: guru pooja, satsang, donation form, cyber-darshan, etc.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 14:25:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Chia Baba
Message:
Here's a money raising scheme that Sai Baba could do, he could make Chia Babas and sell them to his drones.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 16:51:42 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Chia Clown - Sai Baba resemblance
Message:
The resemblance between Chia Clown and Sai Baba is really quite striking, check out Chia Head and click on Chia Clown.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 17:31:48 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: G you are cracking me up
Message:
The resemblence is uncanny.

Thanks for making me laugh. It's much appreciated :)
I'm too distracted to think of a parallel to M's greasy haired days, there must be one.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 16:00:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: hi SB and G
Message:
That site was great G. So tacky!! I love it. What *is* it with India? I still have India import clothes in my closet I'll never wear again ever, all covered with globs of glitter and crap. OK so I'm not politically correct this morning. I am getting ready to go back to PC central. yuck.

Hi SB, I dubbed the Sai pics 'east India meets the Mod Squad'.
Vacation was great. eb and her sisters is an experience one doesn't soon forget!! I love Southern California. It's always so hard for me to leave.
As I just told someone, no wonder the Lard parked his butt down there.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:27:44 (GMT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: What kind of Power does he have?
Message:
I don't see that he has been given special powers by either an evil or good force. I think he is (like everyone) someone who is the product of their cultural and family influences. His belief in himself as the Master, his inspiration, his mistakes, his abilities etc., all seem to me to be all accountable for quite down to earth reasons.

Of course his circumstances were extraordinary compared to most people. It figures that he would become a pretty extraordinary person, both in his 'talents' and character flaws.

I think that it is over-simple dualistic thinking to assume that there are two authorative powers (good and evil) which battle for peoples souls, and bestow their favorites with special powers. People are more complicated than that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 13:43:29 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: What kind of Power does he have?
Message:
I'd say when he heard his farther's voice, he was on his way to becoming mad with the delusion that he really was the 'one'. Other people, normal people, who hear voices are considered schizophrenic, but in Maharaji's case, it's considered a perfectly normal thing. What do you say to that? How do you differentiate when someone's gone mad from when someone has been touched by God? Is there a difference? Why do we lock some people up in an asylum who claim to be the Messiah, and put others on a throne?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:00:43 (GMT)
From: TeddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: What kind of Power does he have?
Message:
It wasnt his father's voice....we are just told that a Voice told him ..you are the one...etc..

But at the age of four, its difficult to say that he has become mad with deluision...what does a 4 year old know about God, Vocies or anything for that matter...but whatever it was has..it was clearly a major upheavel in his young life...Just imagine a voice in your earole saying this..at the same time surrounded by 1000's of grownups...you would probably want to run to mummy...

Seriously..the issue of delusion and hearing voices ..and locking people up...welll I am not sure that M has flipped...if he can pass his pilot's licence and make so much money ..i SUGGEST that he is in full control of his grey matter assets...For a young boy who has come from India..poor...we had to drive him round in a beaten up car...the Rolls which picked him up from the airport was only a rent a rolls....and when he later asked where is the rolls..he was told that was a rented car...over a period of 30 years, he has developed a wealthy empire of companies and holding companieas and sub-companies and proxy shareholdings...and I dont call someone like that deluded and ready to be locked up....Give it to him..the man knows what he is doing...lets face it..painfull as this may be..

My thesis..is that he is not a Being of Light..nor Guided by the Light...but by another power...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 19:55:40 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: TeddyTheTurtle
Subject: What kind of Power does he have?
Message:
First off, I don't believe in powers of darkness and light. They only exist in Star Wars movies (or is that the good side vs. the dark side?) Whatever.

One of two things, that I can think of, is responsible for the 'voices'. Either M actually heard them, which means, at that point in his life, anyway, he bugged out with self-delusion. From what I've heard, he was always being praised as the son of god (daddy), anyway. Do you really believe that he wasn't being pressured before this to take over his father's throne? Do you really think everybody just 'realized' that he was the 'one', at his father's funeral, sort of like the dove setting over Jesus' head at his baptism? It makes for a fantastic story, but hardly is the stuff a realist would swallow. But being a premie doesn't really include being realistic, does it? And Maharji was 8 at the time, not 4.

Another explanation for the 'voices' could be that it's just a tall tale, great mythology, something to make all the disciples go 'wow', solidify devotion, etc. etc. It's one or the other. Either way, it's bullshit. The voices never really happenned. He either heard them in his own head, where it was the only place they came from as a result of self delusion, or he just made it up, being the bullshitting, devious motherfucker that he is.

As for being able to function in the world and being mad at the same time, are the two necessarilly exclusive from one another? Do you really have to be perfectly sane to learn to fly an airplane or build a financial empire? I don't think so. You've just got to stage yourself so you appear that way. Maharaji, certainly, with all his PAMS, has plenty of help with that regard.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 15:03:41 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: TeddyTheTurtle
Subject: What kind of Power does he have?
Message:
If what he does is not good for his followers psychologically and other areas it means he is no good. Lard is not a good person especially because he does it deliberatly. He sets the psychological trap for people to fall into it.

Conclussion: Lard is a bad person because even that when premies think that Lard helps them, Lard's robbing them of real freedom which at the end it shows Lard to be BAD, toxic. If a person who does a good action is a benefactor, he is helping in some way, he is considered a good person, then, one doing bad actions is consider a bad person. What lard does is bad! He is bad. If something called GOD has an enemy and good comes from GOD because we believe he/she/it cannot do anything bad, then all the bad comes from the enemy. Under that, lard listen to the devil to do his gig. That is what you are saying?

I know he is evil, otherwise why would he still be doing the same shit to people 30 years later, knowingly!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:33:40 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: TeddyTheTurtle
Subject: The Devil's Advocate?
Message:
You cannot be serious! He doesn't even LOOK like Al Pacino!

That would give him WAY too much credibility in my book:) Hey, if he is in league with Satan, I just might have to start worshipping Him again! I'll be sure to ask the Dark One next time I sacrifice a virgin.. :[

To me that 'hearing voices' crap belongs firmly in the National Enquirer 'Pending' tray, along with weeping statues, odd-shaped potatoes and the Turin Shroud.

I would shy away too, from affording him any kudos as an entrepeneur. He is not in the same league as Bill Gates, Donald Trump or Richard Branson. Call them opportunists, call them rich bastards, they still did not build their empires on the weakness and gullibility of young people sincerely seeking some kind of spiritual meaning and purpose in their lives, neither did they ever claim to be God.

I know much of the focus here recently has been on the business side of rawat's empire, but let us not be lulled into a reluctant admiration. He deserves none. His empire began and continues to build on the delusion and brainwashing of many thousands of good people worldwide and his skill at that does not stem from magical powers, satanic or otherwise, but from the very human attributes of greed, selfishness and deceit.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 01:41:06 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Not this, Not that
Message:
Exactly right, Rob.

He's neither an entrepreneurial genius nor a tool of the Devil, nor a tool of God.

He was simply in the right place at the right time.

And if you or I were told we were a Godman and were transported to the magical land of the West, where all your wishes come true, we would have done the same thing as He did: collect the goodies.

Unless, of course, you or I were enlightened. Or ethically congruent. Or, at least, one who would feel guilty about exploiting the spiritual longings of Westerners.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 17:45:32 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: An explanation for the voice
Message:
That voice which supposedly came to Maharaji when he was eight years old could have been one of the mahatmas hiding in the bushes or behind a wall. Simple yet effective.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 21:49:04 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Psst..wanna buy a mala?
Message:
yeah, that was my first thought.

Here's another explanation: the situation he was in was traumatic, is he the son of god or not, spplliiitt. From that distance the sound of your own thoughts is surreal.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 00:20:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: spplliiitt
Message:
I wonder if he compartmentalizes his life. Also the PAMs, how do they reconcile his behavior with his role as 'the Master'? Do they do that, rationalize heavily, or are they just in on it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:48:38 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: G
Subject: spplliiitt
Message:
Dear G,
It's a fascinating subject isn't it. I must say I find it difficult to imagine a person getting into K, becoming a PAM, realising it's a con and thinking hey great let's cash in on it, now I can be mean and nasty, unprincipled and greedy, cruel and uncaring, fuck with those pathetic pwicks heads......no I think they are learning at their Master's feet.

So time passes, anything and everything has been justified in terms of the ultimate importance of fuckface and the actual fruits of participation in a devotional cult begin to accrue.

It is such a funny bind. The Golden Hamster says K has no religion, it is the experience that religions come from, and i believe him, not realising than in so doing I have just joined a religion. So now I am in a religious order, thinking i am irreligious; my natural instincts are slowly perverted by the need to justify M whom I rely upon as if he was my father, my mother, my brother, my god. This is my family, I am loyal to it, we are united by our adoration of the Father, sorry can't keep writing, boy am I glad I grew / threw up! LE

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:32:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: La plus things change ........
Message:
One reads Brian McDermott and Michael Dettmers' satsangs from '77 and sees how pathetic we were. But is it really any different today in the cult?

Here's a fresh post from the 'Expressions' page on ELK:

Just heart

I heard he is coming.
I read he is coming.
My heart filled with joy.
I will see him.
I will see him.
My eyes long for his radiance.
My heart breaks through every barrier of mind,
exploding with her own power,
transforming my whole being,
becoming all heart
just heart.

Eleni Kyriakopoulou
Athens, Greece

I guess there is a bit of a difference, if you really think about it. Given all the cult beliefs and all that shit, I'd say that Dettmers and McDermott and all of us back then were actually more real than these idiots. We didn't have the audacity to pretend we were Kabir et al. back then like these shmucks do.

But that's a distinction lost on all but the most driven premieologists, I'm sure. Basically, it's all the same.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 08:20:30 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: According to your journey entry, you began weaning
Message:
yourself off of Maharaji in 1981. Are you still weaning? Or are you just whining now? What makes you an expert on what's going on now? You haven't really been involved in the 'cult' for almost 20 years. When was the last time you heard or saw Maharaji? I just saw the latest satellite broadcast 'Connect' and there was nothing pathetic to me about it. Of course, I'm sure that I don't have your expertise on being pathetic. Maybe you could enlighten me. Oh, that's right, your days of being enlightened are behind you. Did you ever see light within you when you were a devotee, Jim? If you did, would you have termed it as being 'radiant'? Were you delusional back then or are you delusional now? Do you see light within you now? If you consider yourself as having been in a cult back then, what do you consider yourself as being in now? You seem pretty cultish to me, but what do I know about cults? These are just some of the questions I ask myself when I read some of your posts. Hope you don't mind me sharing. I'm always willing to learn something new but I'm having problems learning from you. Of course I am missing a few brain cells from all the shrooms I've eaten over the years. I guess I've got the brain of a child again. And hopefully the heart of one too. Have a nice breath!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 08:50:35 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: According to YOUR own words, shroomie
Message:
Of course I am missing a few brain cells from all the shrooms I've eaten over the years. I guess I've got the brain of a child again.

Hey shroomie, you may be finally seeing the 'light' that counts.

And hopefully the heart of one too.

No shroomie, I guess I spoke too soon. You see the 'core' or 'essence' of a child's being (and yes, I am speaking from a spiritual perspective here)...isn't as twisted yours. Even when it grows up, it won't be as twisted yours.

Unless of course, that child grows up to be a fuckbrain cult apologist like yourself, shroomie.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 16:31:21 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Was I talking to YOU, Jo-ey? No, I wasn't, but
Message:
I'm not apologizing for anyone. I feel that what my teacher is offering to every human being on this planet is wonderful. It's just too bad that some who have received his free gift don't appreciate what they've been given. But I sure do!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 22:28:27 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Was I talking to YOU, Jo-ey? No, I wasn't, but
Message:
How can a gift be considered free if one must grovel for the gift? How can it be considered free when one must be considered worthy of the gift before it is given? Why don't you learn to use language correctly? What M claims to 'give' is not free under any definition of the word.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 07:19:51 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: I don't know about you, but I never did any
Message:
'groveling' to receive Knowledge. I was looking for some meaning to this life. I was even looking for my Creator before I ran into Maharaji. Actually, I had gotten to the point where I had given up seeking to know what life was all about. Then I heard about Knowledge. I did what I was told to receive it. Have my questions answered. Listen to the Master. I don't know about anyone judging my 'worthiness', but I was ready when I entered that Knowledge session to either embrace it or denounce it. It was either the biggest con job on the planet or it was the Truth I was looking for. Guess what? It's 18 years later and I'm still listening to him and practicing his gift. Am I worthy? I doubt it but I'm sure glad he gave it to me. He sure didn't charge me any money to get it. Did he charge you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 18:16:11 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I don't know about you, but I never did any
Message:
You believe that the 'gift' is free because 'He sure didn't charge me any money to get it.' You seem to be a little self-absorbed if you think that your experience is THE true experience. The overall experience of the majority here is that there are strings attached to this 'free gift.' Yes, back in 1974 one DID have to grovel and beg and would still be told they weren't ready for this free gift.

What is your experience of gift giving? Do people have to ask you for a gift, or do you give gifts for birthdays, special occasions, births, weddings, etc.? Do you only give gifts to those who are 'ready?' I hope that this post is clear enough for you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:15:38 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: 'The Gift': the old give and take...and take
Message:
What is your experience of gift giving? Do people have to ask you for a gift, or do you give gifts for birthdays, special occasions, births, weddings, etc.? Do you only give gifts to those who are 'ready?' I hope that this post is clear enough for you.

Good point, Michael.

This point of knowledge being termed a 'gift' by m, by insructors and all premies who spout the party line is really fundamental to the cult's psychological manipulation. I'd like to add this perspective on it that comes from Robert Cialdini's book, 'Influence-The Psychology of Persuasion.'

You see, once you believe that you've been given a gift by someone, there's an automatic respose mechanism that clicks in with human beings, an automatic response mechanism that's very fundamental to human nature. And this response mechanism that clicks in automatically, is that now that you've been given a gift, you've got to reciprocate. And the more 'special' you believe the gift is, the more urgent it becomes to reciprocate in a special way. In a sense, there's a feeling of indebtedness that's created in the situation.

Now think of it. With our family ,those who are our true loved ones, or even those friends who genuinely mean well for us, this automatic response mechanism serves us rather well. It's only appropriate, and in some of those situations maybe even essential that we reciprocate.

But for m who really only means well for himself, this automatic response mechanism is EXPLOITED, to create a feeling of indebtedness to HIMSELF. It really is the The Old Give and Take....and Take as Cialdini puts it.

Now to be honest, m and other cult leaders arent't the only ones who employ these weapons of influence. Politicians and marketers, and compliance professionals of all stripes use them as well.
It's just that IMO, cult leaders employ these techniques or weapons of influence in the most obnoxious way possible.
Then again, that's probably a very biased statement on my part, but I believe I have a very good, personal reason for that bias.

BTW, Cialdini's book is really worth a read. Highly recommended.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 19:39:45 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: 'The Gift': the old give and take...and take
Message:
Gift exchange is an important aspect of any culture, and it is important to be familiar with or be aware of the rules governing gift exchange in a culture. One must be aware of the rules governing the receipt of a gift. There really is no such thing as a 'free gift;' but I don't think any of us were aware of M's rules governing the reciept of his free gift.

I'll see if I can find the book here in Central America.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 20:56:48 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: BTW Michael, re: Robert Cialdini's book
Message:
Michael,

If you have a hard time finding the book down there in Central America, here's the address to a really neat site based on Cialdini's work. I'm sure you'll find it more than interesting.

Enjoy!

http://www.influenceatwork.com/index.html

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 10:35:15 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I don't know about you, but I never did any
Message:
He doesn't charge a fee before you get in the knowledge session but isn't true that to 'evolve' the student must spend 'some/much' money to receive his teachings? The gift is not a gift. You come out with the techniques bout he is not stupid; he knows a person has become A CUSTOMER OF HIS AFTER THAT. He can say it's free but it isn't and for you to agree with Lard shows how off the subject you are, how blind with devotion you are that you even have forgotten fow to use math.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 20:17:40 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Was I talking to YOU, Jo-ey? No, I wasn't, but
Message:
Well, bully for you. Why don't you go somewhere and enjoy yourself with your 'free' gift? But let me ask you, what makes you so sure that you just aren't one crazy motherfucker who thinks he sees God when he closes his eyes? Seriously, how can placing your fingers in a particular position, while focusing your attention between the eyebrows, toward the forhead, suddenly give you a vision of The Almighty? It's sort of like, before you do that, God's nowhere to be found, right? It's one of those 'boo!' experiences where God suddenly pops out of the shadows, right? Hahahahaha. You make me laugh, Shroomananda, you really do. Crazy fuck. You actually let somebody name you that? What was your name before that, Bill, Michael, Teddy, or something? And you handed that in for Shroomananda? Hahahahaha! You're very funny.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 07:31:15 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I do intend to enjoy his 'free' gift. I guess
Message:
that just makes me a 'crazy motherfucker'. Right, Jerry? But you know, every religion that has a scripture says that God is light and that light is within. Before Knowledge, I used to pray to God every night while I was an aspirant for Him to reveal that light to me, but not once did I ever see light within me. After I received Knowledge, I saw light. And I've seen that self-effulgent light within me numerous times since then. But even that would not prove anything if I didn't also feel that peace and stillness that accompanies my practice of Knowledge. Not all the time do I feel that peace when I listen or practice or participate, but enough so that I keep coming back for more. If you've never seen that light or felt that peace then maybe Knowledge is not for you. But I know that thousands of people in India line up for that 'free' gift when he goes there. Maybe they're just 'crazy motherfuckers' too. What do you think?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 12:49:42 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I do intend to enjoy his 'free' gift. I guess
Message:
Well, Shroom, I guess God must like you better than me, because when I close my eyes, I just see the same old, same old. Don't you think that's kind of odd? If Maharaji was the means of realizing God, and I accepted that means in my life, with sinceritry and humility, shouldn't I have found what I was looking for? Shouldn't God have revealed himself to me, the same as he did to you? What's so special about you? Basically, what you're telling me is that God only opens some eyes, and keeps others closed. Is that the way it works?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 23:49:16 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I don't know if God opens some eyes and not
Message:
others, Jerry. It is the same 'gift' for everyone, however. When Christ walked the earth, some followed him everywhere and gave him everything and some crucified him. And they all saw the miracles he did like giving sight to the blind and curing illnesses, etc. Why didn't they all come to him? I don't know but all Maharaji asks is that Knowledge is given a fair chance. I REALLY wanted to know what this life was all about so perhaps I was thirstier than some others. Plant a bean sprout seed and you'll have a plant in just a few days. Plant a coconut and you'll have a tree in a few years. Why didn't God make them both grow at the same rate? After all, they're both seeds. I think there are just some things about the Creator that are just plain baffling but why should I be bothered about such mysteries? Even if I knew all the mysteries of life, would I be any happier? I don't think so.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 00:56:16 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I don't know if God opens some eyes and not
Message:
Shroom, it's a little debatable whether Jesus actually performed his miracles or not. Personally, I think it's all bull, but you believe what you want to.

I REALLY wanted to know what this life was all about so perhaps I was thirstier than some others.

I don't think so. I really want to know what this life is all about too. I just gave up believing M could help me find out. And yes, I do believe I gave him a fair chance, much more than that, in fact, more than he deserved.

Plant a bean sprout seed and you'll have a plant in just a few days. Plant a coconut and you'll have a tree in a few years.

We're not bean sprouts or coconuts. We're both human beings, who went to Maharaji with the same thirst. In fact, for all I know, I was thirstier than you were. Can you say I wasn't? No you can't so let's just leave that one alone, okay?

Here's my understanding. If there's a God, he created us all equally with a thirst to know him. He didn't create some more thirsty than others. That would be absurd, if the purpose of our being is to come to know him. That would mean that he gave some the ability to fulfill their purpose but not to others. A very silly thing to do, wouldn't you say? I mean, why create a being whose purpose is to know you if you're not going to give him that ability? Now, I can see if he also gave us a free will to come to him or turn away, but Shroom, that is not the case with anybody who recieived Knowledge. We all received K becasue we wanted to know God, to fulfill that purpose which he himself instilled in us. How come some of us didn't come to fulfill our purpose that being the case? And don't go on about giving K a fair chance again. We did that too. So, if we gave K a fair chance, and it didn't work for us, what have you got to say to that?

I know you can't believe I gave K a fair chance or had a thirst as deep, if not deeper than your's, but how do you know, for sure, that isn't the case? In the long run, all you're going to do is leave this place believing what you want to. Why not just leave now? In your mind you had it figured out even before you came here. So what good was it for you to come here. All you wound up doing was make a fool of yourself tripping all offer Jim's questions, and being goofed on by me. Happy you came?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:47:27 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: I'm happy whether I come or not! How about you?
Message:
And while I'm at it, why are you so anxious to get rid of me? Am I a threat to your ex-preminess? You seem to think that we all should be equally God-thirsty when a Master comes into this world, but name me one past Master where a large religion started that didn't have some people say that he was the one and other people said that he wasn't. Or that the closest disciples didn't have different experiences and ideas amongst them. Whether it was Christ, Buddha, Krishna, Nanak, Zoroaster, Kabir, Lao Tsu, Mohammed, or whoever, they all had some that loved him and some that hated him, some that experienced and some that didn't. Do you think that God will someday appear out of the clouds and say 'Here I am, everyone. Come to me and I'll take you back to heaven'? And if He does do that, do you think that everyone will take Him up on His offer? And of those that take Him up on His offer, do you think that everyone will be equally pleased by what they get? One man's heaven is another man's hell. And did you ever look at a fruit tree, Jerry? Do ALL of the apples ripen at one time? No! One ripens, then another does and then another does. Do you think that the Creator screwed that up too?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:36:14 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Personally, I'd rather come
Message:
I'm not anxious toget rid of you. I just see no reason for you to continue sticking around if your questions have already been answered. You've decided that you have a deeper thirst than the rest of us and that's why you're still a premie and we're not. You've concluded that you gave it a fair chance where we didn't. So, what further business do you have with us? What would you like to talk about? Do you want to debate who Maharaji is? Why? We've done that. He's a liar. The proof is in his own words. But you don't care. You have your experience and that's all that matters to you.

Now, you start blabbing about all these past 'masters' in a manner that assumes I have more respect for them than I do Maharaji. I don't. Now, so far, we've been assuming there's a creator. Let's assume there isn't. Let's assume, for argument's sake, that faith in God is just a survival mechanism of the human species to cope with his impending doom. Have you ever studied neuroscience or evolutionary psychology? You'd be amazed at the hypotheses that can be formed around them. How much do you know about evolution, or the neurotransmitters in your brain and how they affect everything, and cause everything, from what you think to what you feel?

How do you know that you just aren't an automaton who has been shaped by his environment to think and feel as you do? And here's a last thought. How do you know that you aren't being reshaped to think anew from your exposure to our side of the fence? Yes, Shroom, new dendrites and synapses are taking shape in your brain with every post you read and write. Better be careful. One dendrite too many and you just may become an ex-premie yourself :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:58:17 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Maybe you're right, Jerry. Maybe there is no God
Message:
and all we are is a random permutation of molecules. Maybe there is no meaning or purpose to our existence. But I can still feel, can't I? I can still love. I can still experience that feeling of completeness within me,can't I? But you know, I still think there is a God. If you bring this creation all the way back to the first hydrogen atom, you still are left with the question of where did it come from? After all, you can't get something from nothing, can you? You can't look at a lamp and say that nothing created it, can you? So I'll continue to believe that something created me. It just is not logical to me to believe otherwise. How about you? Did something create you or are you just a random permutation of molecules?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 05:14:27 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Strange words for a premie
Message:
Shroom,

You can believe something created you if you want to. But, having Knowledge, you should be beyond belief. Because you have Knowledge, you should KNOW. Remember how that was the big deal? People who don't have Knowledge, they just believe, but those of us who have Knowledge, we KNOW. Or have you forgotten? Sorry, Shroom, you've let Maharaji string you along any way he's wanted to. It started out with a quest for God, a thirst to know who we are and where we came from, something only the Living Perfect Master, supposedly, could help us with. Now, you don't even ask for that, anymore, and Maharaji no longer offers it. Now, it's just about inner peace. God's not even part of the equation. But tell me, if there is a God, are you satisfied with just inner peace, or don't you feel there's still more you need to know, like who is God, and where is he? Surely, if there is a creator, your journey is not yet done. In your own words, you said, 'Maybe there is no God'. To me, that can only mean you haven't found him yet. And that can only mean that, so far, Maharaji has failed you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 07:17:23 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: There is no God, Jerry. You should know that by
Message:
now. Because what's trying to know God, the infinite, immortal, omnipresent, changeless one is by nature finite, mortal, limited and constantly changing. So for me to point to something and say that's God is really stupid. But does that mean that He/She/It doesn't exist? Hell, no. It just means that my puny, finite, limited intelligence can't explain or define Him/She/It. I guess it's just one of those paradoxes. By definition or explanation, there is no God. By experience and intuition, there is one. I'm comfortable with that. How about you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 11:56:06 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: There is no God, Jerry. You should know that by
Message:
No, I'm not comfortable with that, Shroom. It sounds like bullshit.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:53:26 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: The Past Perfect Master thang is a sham.
Message:
Jesus, Buddha, etc., were not past perfect masters, shroom, that's just some bullshit Divine Light Mission came up with to give them some credibility. Open your eyes, you've been taken.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 00:49:04 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: You like MISTERY, eh? (nt)
Message:
Booo
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 10:06:19 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I do intend to enjoy his 'free' gift. I guess
Message:
You seem to be really into this Indian trip shroo, as you often mention what's happening in India. I don't know if you realise it but when maha gets say 50-150,000 people turn up at one of his programs there it's not considered a big deal? there are spiritual festivals in India which regularly attract a couple of million people!

also, you perhaps don't realise that although many of the attendees at one of Mahas events have received 'nollige'(haha),they also often would attend any event with any gooroo who was in town. It's a bit like going to a rock concert for them. Wow man let's go and see Sai Baba this year! Hey Sanji , Balyogeshwar's in town. It's all so different there Shroo. Don't get too impressed by Indian statistics , please.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 00:01:19 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: I'm not impressed with Indian statistics, Hal, but
Message:
I am impressed with being able to turn inside and experience something peaceful and tranquil within me. Could I quiet my mind before Knowledge? Maybe after a few beers but Knowledge seems to work without the hangover effect that alcohol gives sometimes. As far as India goes, I doubt very seriously that any other Guru has as many devoted and committed students and has such a growth rate of new aspirants as Maharaji does. I've seen on this site many claim that the techniques that Maharaji offers can be gotten at any number of places and teachers and that Knowledge is no big deal. Well, I don't know about that but Maharaji has said from day one to put him last. He said that one should go to four corners of the earth and find that Knowledge and then if it didn't provide happiness to come to him and he would give his Knowledge. Any other teachers say that?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 09:35:57 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Maha said that ???'
Message:
Shroo,

Maharaji has said from day one to put him last? Wow I am getting old. my memory is really deceiving me. I don't have any old transcripts in my posession but what I remember most are years of being shouted at to SURRENDER TO GURU MAHARAJI. I seem to remember being told very clearly to put him first, even though there was that triangle crap about Me Maha and knowledge. He always seemed to be saying that it didn't work without the master. Now you're saying that I didn't hear correctly. Talk about creative reasoning!

Hal

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 01:41:15 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: I'm not impressed with Indian statistics, Hal, but
Message:
shroomie-satpal(aka bal bhagwan ji) has 2000-3000 ASHRAMS in India.He also gives knowledge, and gives satsang that makes a lot more sense than m does.He has MANY more followers in India than m does..
Apparently, most people have taken m up on his offer to check out everyone else and then come to him, because most people are not coming to him!
Do you know how many people Pat Robertson or Benny Hinn can draw in India?At least a million each time they preach there.
Do you know it's common for Indian people to have 5 or 6 gurus?They swap and trade them like baseball cards, or like new agers in the west go to different seminars to hear different speakers...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:32:27 (GMT)
From: Shroomananda
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: You talk like an expert.What are YOUR credentials?
Message:
You ever been to India? You ever receive Satpal's Knowledge or hear him give satsang? The statistics you quote--where'd they come from? AND WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE? If I'm thirsty and someone gives me a glass of water that satisfies me, what do I care if others can give me a glass of water too? Besides, Satpal's Knowledge was gotten from the same Master as Maharaji, wasn't it? I'm sure if Maharaji had stayed full-time in India and not come to the rest of the world he'd be as big or bigger than his elder brother. But it seems to me that Bal BhagwanJi used to be a supporter of Maharaji. Didn't he use to recognize him as being the Lord? When is Satpal's next world-wide satellite event going to happen? Maharaji's is next Thursday and then Sunday. I'll listen to Satpal's satsang as long as it doesn't conflict with Maharaji's. Do you have Satpal's current schedule of events? I'm open. I'll listen. Let me know.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 02:51:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Shroomananda
Subject: Satpal's web site
Message:
Hal's source is Satpal's web site.

Satpal claims:
'Shri Maharaj Ji is the founder of the organization 'Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti', which aspires to manifest 'Knowledge in Action'. It operates a wide range of charitable and social services through its network of more than 3000 ashrams and centers.'

He's gotten fat, but he lost those stupid looking glasses, I guess he wears contacts.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:47:55 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well, Maybe...
Message:
But see my post down below about sexual overtones, what with all the 'coming' and 'exploding' that Eleni is talking about.

I think the difference is that probably Brian and Michael were more honest about what they believed, or what they thought they were SUPPOSED to believe, because, really, wasn't satsang partly the opportunity to say things that you knew you were SUPPOSED to believe, but probably didn't, or were AFRAID you didn't? Hearing yourself say things like that, and getting positive feedback from the premie audience, reinforced the programming.

But I think ELK might be fulfilling some of that function. What I think is amazing is how very few premies post things on ELK, and then there are a handfull of people who seem to make up half the entries.

My theory is that most premies are closet premies. They may go to events, they may send in money, but they don't want the people they work with to know that they are following Maharaji. That's the main reason there are hardly any new premies. Since M doesn't do intro programs, and hides out from the press, you would only know about the cult by actually knowing a premie. (Or maybe going on the internet.) And since premies don't talk about it, propogation doesn't happen. But I think Maharaji doesn't realize that his own ambiguous and embarrassing presence in all this, including his confused role, (and bizarre past)makes people less likely to want to tell people about it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 01:03:50 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: why premies don't post on elk
Message:
I think the main reason they don't is not wanting to make a fool of themselves in front of eachother hahahahahaha
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:58:28 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Maharaji Effect in Slickville
Message:
At ELK, a premie named David Roha, from 'Slickville, USA' (is THAT a made up place, or what?) says that he doesn't give a fuck what Maharaji says, he says being around Maharaji is like being exposed to radiation, and Maharaji gives off causes his cells to change field that makes it easier for David to meditate after that. I guess David wouldn't get this over a satellite or in a video. Do you think Maharaji is going to transmit this over the new 'knowledge-by-computer' program?

David Roha: The Maharaji effect
From Slickville, USA

Maybe after about 50 programs it's starting to sink in. There is an effect that happens after being close to Maharaji... It doesn't matter if I like him or dislike him, if I agree with what he is saying or disagree, if I think he is smart or if I think he is dumb. It's like being exposed to radiation without the harmful effects. I did not feel anything at first, but something has changed on a fundamental, almost cellular level. The change is apparent by the ease with which I can meditate. What once was difficult has now become easy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 21:49:29 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Maharaji Effect in Slickville
Message:
Joe,
As a matter of fact, it is made up. It was a made up post to see if it would get on,tho pro-M.
Read it on another site.An Experiment.

Regards,
Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:23:07 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Who made it up/Enjoyinglife censorship
Message:
And are the people at Enjoyinglife THAT dense that they don't know that SLICKVILLE is made up? Geeez.

Whoever did it, good job. I'm surprised they didn't edit it more, or maybe they did.

Elaine, I assume you are aware that a BUNCH of entries have been sent in to ELK by ex-premies, and some were HEAVILY edited without permission. It's all detailed on the ex-premie website. I had the pleasure of writing a few of them myself.

By the way, I think there are STILL some fake entries from way back in November, 1998 when Nigel told the ELK folks about some of them.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 12:35:20 (GMT)
From: David Roha
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: If you want someone not to believe you, tell the
Message:
truth.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 23:53:41 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: All right which one of you guys made this one up?
Message:
The sky glows in the dark.
She must live near a nuke plant.

Birds are singing and trees spreading their perfume.
Do birds sing at night? Oh yeah nightingales, in Brazil?? I don't think so.

I am reminded of the precious day that I have had.

This is rich: a 'precious' day. Ha ha ha !

I was talking with people in cities all around Brazil - sharing our experiences of propagation.

I'll bet that went over like a fart in Sunday school...

I experienced the joy of the Amazon, mixed with the wonders of the South.

I wish a big ole croc would bite this dame in the ass...

I felt an incredible trust in the air without reason or forecast.

Yes, well OK, trust in the air, uh huh, got it. And it wasn't even on the weather report.

A miracle of awakening seems to be happening.
The weasel word here is 'seems.' It 'seems' like she may being having a psychotic episode, actually.

This is a love moved by an infinite enthusiasm.

Infinite? Love moved by enthusiams? Moved to where? Cleveland?


A maturity of feelings renewed by the evolution of Knowledge.

Maturity? Omigod this women sounds like a pre-teen fawning over some 18 year old rock star.

But it is a simple breath, pure and intense, that synchronises the voices of our hearts.

Now I know one of you guys wrote this. Nigel?

How glad I am to be helping out!

Don't worry honey, it's only the Stockhold Syndrome. You can recover with a little help.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 09:46:34 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: All right which one of you guys made this one up?
Message:
Please, do it again: That is very funny!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 02:03:38 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Hi Gerry
Message:
When are you coming to Portland again? How 'bout a party and bring Jim, too! I have a few ex-premie friends here in close communication.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 21:06:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: The Maharaji Effect in Slickville
Message:
It's the old 'shaktiput' stuff he's talking about. I'll bet goober says something to the effect that you can still get his mojo through electronic media since it's all energy anyway or some other such nonsense. The premies will eat it up, of course, never stopping to use their minds to analyse this.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:36:34 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: watersports@upyours.com
To: the unwashed ex rabble
Subject: Janice needs an enema...
Message:
I have yet to meet a person who does not want love, understanding and kindness. And the people who give this the least are the ones who seem to need them the most. Very interesting. We each have within us, what we most want, and yet sometimes we are not in touch with it. We are each full of love, full, of kindness, full of understanding. And to find it all we have to do is open up our heart (to the Universe of Love and He will fill you up, tra la la la--ed.) in it is endless, endless treasure. Maybe, yes, we do need the help of someone who can touch our hearts, plant a seed of love and encourage us to open up and bloom, bloom in love with life.

Uh, Janice sweety YOU are full of something, but why do you need Maharaji to 'plant the seed of love'? Don't you have a man friend?

I love blooming.
I'll bet you do.

It feels like who I really am: joyous, happy, grateful to be alive. Fresh, newborn, like my niece who was just born into this world a few days ago, so sweet, so delicate, so tender. Happy birthday to you! And to all of us human beings who are gifted with life one more d

And happy new breath to you Janice, you fresh little thing you! Hey, maybe you could do a Massengil commmercial...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 03:25:38 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: You disgusting perverts
Subject: Maddy told Haddy
Message:
Yesterday I emailed my beloved Maharaji.

Ah yes, sweet unrequited love...he doesn't even know you're alive.

The multitude of variations of expressions of love and moments in time escape my limited imagination and wondering.

Now this almost sounds like something, but it's really meaningless and uh, yes, 'limited.'

The flickering sweetness and kindness of the breath satisfies my unlimited, unquenching heart.

I think this girl's flick switch has just turned on...my breath is real kind too, especially after an all nighter at the Fireman's Club.

Some nights alone the longing in my heart distracts me and I feel too excited to go to sleep.

Get some fresh batteries.

So in the early hours of the dawn this morning I watched the video of the Toronto 2000 event. I don't remember what he said but I know that when I love Maharaji, he loves me right back, there and then, and now.

Oh I see, you HAVE fresh batteries. Well hell, go for it. But isn't that a little blasphemous, naming your steely dan 'Maharaji?' Aw what the heck I named my tool 'Jesus.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 03:54:49 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: You ignorant hordes
Subject: Don't miss this one !!!
Message:
Darryl Wilson: Things couldn't be better
From Water Valley, Mississippi, USA

I pray this finds all happy and healthy. As usual, I have been through so much. I am still having seizures and they are due every day now. The car has been broke. The computer has been down, you name it.

Then it seemed it all came to a heap of things so distracting. A friend of my brother mailed him a tape with several discourses by Maharaji on Knowledge, and a whole lot of beautiful artwork and music by Maharaji himself. I watched the video and was everything from impressed to blown away.

Then it happened; I came home from somewhere, and started to watch the video again. I started where I had stopped watching the day before; the video had been recorded over by a baseball game. I was grateful for the safe part of the video and heart broken by the lost part. I am grateful I got to watch and listen to the discourses and see the artwork and pictures by Maharaji. Like this lifetime, we need to enjoy it at least once; it could be gone so fast.
But don't ever feel sorry for me. I am still existing and I know that Maharaji has that trust in me. I feel wanted and I am very happy. I am grateful to tell everyone I am running about 1 percent.

About one percent of the day or about eight or 10 minutes in that clarity. One has to practice. Anyone reading this can do better. Somehow recognize this clarity and then I hope your decision is to pursue it.

Love Darryl

P.S. My goal this lifetime is to grow to a point I am experencing at least 4 or 5 percent of the day or about an hour a day. Who knows, from one percent to five percent, what accelerations of love can take place.

Elaine, is this your handiwork, too???

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 02:07:45 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: You are so bad...
Message:
Gerry, what happened to the Gerry who felt love and awakening. Is is a love/hate relationship with yourself?
Love is very real you know. I feel like this 'Gerry' is a creation like a comic book character, not like the guy I met! That's OK 'though! Do your thing, it is creative!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 02:49:25 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I love the sound of cyberTSK in the morning
Message:
As in 'tsk, tsk tsk.' I can't help it. I'm the kid with the hat pin at the birthday party.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 14:53:45 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How Lard do the PROGRAMMING/BRAINWASHING, here
Message:
What a bunch of ..... maharaji spoke there for almost an hour. What follows is about half of the whole program. Interesting to observe how he does it, how Lard erases doubts from his devotees' minds. Even that he wants to make all believe things has changed, it hasn't at all. He uses the same old techniques to support the old trick: Don't listen to your mind, listen to me. maharaji Lard definitely manipulates people's minds 'Don't leave room for doubts in your mind' still in use these days...According to premies he talks about doubt even at the present time. Control your thoughts: Don't think...Is the same than the 70's message, Isn't?

Buenos Aires, Argentina - July 23, 1997 Maharaji speaking to people who have received Knowledge.

So, today... we have an opportunity to listen, and maybe...we can listen in a way which is sincere, which is simple,listen... from this heart. Because that's where the message comes from, from the heart. It's not a philosophy. It's not a concept. It's not an idea. Nothing that is being talked about, here, is going to help you with your job. Is not going to help you with your family. Is not going to help you... in this world. But it only going to help you... you as a human being. And recently in Chile, I did a Knowledge session. I thought that was a very sweet, very beautiful knowledge session, and it was very interesting...I was talking about the 'doubt maker'. And I was saying you know, don't let the doubtmaker come. What you are being given, what you are feeling receive it, accept it, don't doubt it. And it's really amazing... this capacity we have to doubt. Because it isn't just a question of knowledge, because of course, that is there too, but we doubt everything. It's amazing how much we do of this doubting. People doubt whether there is God. They doubt what's going to happen to them. Everything...that we begin to perceive starts to become a doubt. The person, the runner who have being practicing, and practicing and practicing to win.. even in him the doubt creeps in, am I going to win today? We board an airplane, that is simple enough, but the doubt creeps in, am I going to make it OK? Sometimes we get in our car, the doubt comes in, am I going to arrive to the other side? We found ourselves in a traffic sham, the doubt comes in. Am I going to arrive where I'm going in time? Doubt. And the doubtmaker lives with us. And all it does, all day long is makes doubts, and doubts, and doubts. ( Louder voice, emphasizing certainty) It doesn't understand certainty. Certainty of this existence. Certainty of being alive. Certainty of being able to receive the joy. Certainty of being fulfilled. It doesn't understand that. All it does is it creates doubts, and creates doubts, and creates doubts.... There are people who have knowledge. There have knowledge! They have the gift...but they doubt it. And then if... they even understand the techniques, they'd gone through a knowledge review, or something like that. They understand the techniques...then they doubt the experience. Some people doubt knowledge. Some people doubt the experience. Some people doubt the master.... They doubt. And...what is being said? Even though it comes from the heart... we tend to doubt that too. And we doubt...our own heart...sometimes, we doubt our own heart. When somebody comes along and gives us a message ...that can benefit us, we doubt that person. So what's left? Is there anything that we don't doubt?(The last sentences were said with a reproach type of voice) And there is always that excuse. Always that excuse...A lot of people write to me...and say..you know....I didn't receive knowledge from you, so, you know, I want to be in your knowledge session. I want to receive knowledge from you. And I say, knowledge is knowledge. Why are you doubting what you have? Why do you doubt? .....Why do you doubt that feeling... that is coming from your heart? Why do you doubt it? Some people, to some people already got a definition of what knowledge should be. ...What should it be?...I arrived.... the day before yesterday... It was dark by the time I got to where I'm staying...and I looked at the skies and they are cloudy... and then, a little bit of sun started to brake through...and this morning... is clear...then this afternoon a few clouds come... then I looked at the satellite picture and there are more coming.... (people laugh)....And what am I looking at? Whenever I look at something from my preconceived idea doubts is bound to come in...doubt is bound to come in...And dealing in a knowledge session with the people...who've just receiving knowledge (sic) and said, look, don't let this doubtmaker come in...because what you are about to receive... is so beautiful...is so simple... that you have to become simple. You don't need to doubt it. Because I say to them, look at these techniques. What do they do? They are too simple. They are not pulling you away. But they are refocusing you to that place which is so much you...but the doubtmaker comes...and what do I need to do? So, and then... in a knowledge session one person said,...he said, okay...today we'll stop this doubtmaker! He received the techniques and said, we'll stop this doubtmaker...and I said, don't underestimate your enemy...(people laugh loud)..Don't!....and then I started to explain something to him...to everybody who was there and now I'll explain it to you too...That the winds will come. The storms, the storms will come. You cannot stop the storms. That's the policy some people adapt in their lives: I will just stop the winds from coming. You cannot...The winds will come. The storms will come. The opportunity for doubts will come, will arise. You cannot stop that. You... this little boat of yours. You know that when those storms come...those storms will devastate you...You know that... But what can you do? Some people go and...try...they are looking for the place where there are no storms.... Some people want to find a place where there are no storms. But let me tell you no such a place exists....... Listen to what I'm saying, don't, I know, some, some of you've already going off and saying, well, there must be a place, there must be a place! ...(funny voice, sarcastic)When I have completely dove into knowledge then there will not be more storms... Then let me tell you I have yet to meet a person like that...I don't know of anybody......You say, maybe I become a monastic, I denounce everything ,then maybe there will be no storms...This is not true. Storms come...for even those who have given up everything...Storms are storms. What do they care?... What do they care?...They will...move, try to move the mountain, and of course, move the grass, and move the soil, and move anything they can move. Storms are storms.... And then there are those people who say my boat is so...worthy... I don't have to worry. Nothing...is worthy...When you see, you know... sometimes in the ocean you see these huge tankers, I mean, they are huuuuge, and the storm have just picked them up and...put them on the beach....Then you realize if the storm can do that... why am I kidding myself...The elements. The winds, the rain, the hail, the lightening... The storm. Nothing is sea worthy enough to take on because there will always be that one storm. So what... what do we have, what option...we...you, me. What option do we have? What can we do? Some people... in their lives they've just said, this is the law, this is what happens... and I don't agree with that either... So then, what is the way? And what I was explaining at that knowledge session that when that storm comes you need good anchorage.... So, find that good anchorage....In the waters of this knowledge, in the ocean of this knowledge, in the bay of this knowledge, in the bay... of the master, in the bay of that sweet and simple devotion, toss your anchor...because there... there is protection. Don't try to change the winds. Don't try to change the lightening. But toss this anchor. And that is the safety... the safety...of this little boat...Not in ideas. Not in the doubtmaker. Not in the fight with the doubtmaker. You can't win. You cannot win that doubtmaker. Because it comes and it preys open. It needs no keys to lacks, it brakes them. It enters where it wants to go...because those...in my opinion who have being given the gift of this knowledge... have so much to cherish, so much to understand, so much to enjoy!...Where the duality.... the duality... of though and heart have being separated.(dramatic, with a pausing weak voice, word by word) It has been clarified that the heart rules in the kingdom within and so it will be the ruler. And the thoughts rule in the world outside and there is where it can rule, but the dominion inside each being, the domain inside each being of... this sweet experience then that is (using a even more dramatic voice) what will rule...And that's what is important. When you can begin in your life, you can begin (loud) to court, to gather, to bring in, to welcome, to welcome clarity...There was this lady and...she knew....and this was when Rama was exhiled...and he had been sent, he was in the jungle, his wife had been stolen by a robber, and he was in his conquest to get her back, and he was traveling...in the jungle, there was this lady, in the story there was this lady and her name was...blank ( can't understand the name, begins with B) and she had heard that Rama is going to go through here on his way...on that search. Now, not, she hadn't heard that Rama was going to come and stay here...that there was just going to be a passage, he was going to go through....And she started to prepare and the preparation... was sooo intense... that everybody who saw her only made fun of her, because everyday she would clean the road, everyday she would put flowers on it, everyday she would go and gather the fruit from the jungle. Everyday, everyday she would prepare, and prepare, and prepare....Preparation....In that preparation she found her joy. It wasn't laborious to her to prepare....And even though people laughed because they did not understand because she had no date of when Rama was going to come through...She just knew, he is gonna come so she started to prepare every single day...and people saw this happening day after day, after day...and they said, she's crazy...she's crazy... And everyday people would go to their work but she would wait....She wanted to be prepared, and let me finish the story and I'll go back to what I'm trying to convey to you here... and one day, one day he came, Rama came, and she was ready...and everybody else, not that....it wasn't like they didn't...not that everybody didn't want to see Rama; everybody wanted to see Rama...but they hadn't prepared and they were not ready and Rama came. And when he came she was, she greeted him. Took him to the room. Offered him food.(GIVE) Offered him rest. And everybody was everywhere else...and then Rama left...and the only difference them saw... that she no longer prepared for him, and they asked her, have you given up? And she said , no, he came and he's gone and she was... happy... that's the story...that's the story....What can I get out of that story...in my life...(strong/loud) That I too in this life need to be prepared and I need to prepare for that clarity to come my way....and that preparation that I need needs to be immaculate!...and I cannot let the doubtmakers come and say you are crazy, your clarity will never take place...can't. I can't afford that! Lately, have you, have I, have we taken a look at things that are important to us?....How long a go have we made such list, taking such an account? When was (bitchy/screaming) the last time....when was the last time of all the things we do...to be quote, end quote 'normal' in this world...when was the last time we took in account of what is really important to you and me? Important...When did we say...that this breath is
important to me. When did we say that this feeling is important to me? When did we say that this knowledge is important to me? When did we say that ...this existence is important to me.(so dramatic) ......Whether it's ...or it isn't, only you know.... Either you understand in your life... that to be fulfilled...is important to you...or isn't. To be fulfilled... (strong) Because only then knowledge would make any sense, only then what I'm saying to you would make any sense...When you understand that that is a priority... Because if it isn't, then what difference does it make? .... What difference does it make?... This the proof that he wants premies as much zombie as possible, because, do anybody remembers what being 'too blissed' was like? Like...stupid...? Anyway, the ending of the exact half of the program cited above....Somebody wrote me a letter... this person's a fisherman...and...he received knowledge not too long a go, and this letter was thanking me for this knowledge... and the letter said, I love to practice...I love to practice this
knowledge....two hours a day and I'm working on three!....He is up on the North, somewhere... a fisherman...and when I heard that....! When I heard that....all I could say is that is beautiful... That this being, this person has understood
something... they... want to make that effort...because it's important! (screaming)...Some people ask why do I have to practice?... I was talking in Chile and I said...ask a musician. A good one, a good musician, not just...just a musician. Ask a musician, a good one, a really good one, why do you have to practice? Don't you know the scales? Are you afraid you will forget the difference between the black and the white keys? Why do you have to practice?....Why? Because it's important! (Stern voice)) Because that practicing is what makes that musician good...when they are freed from the technicalities of pushing keys....then they can get on... with the business of expression. And that's what the difference between a good piece of music and a bad piece of music is...is not notes!...is an expression...And if you are caught in the technicality of pushing the right keys there will be no expression!! Because to be in that place where you can express you have to be free!...of technicalities...End of first half.

Well, what do you think? It doesn't make too much sense, doesn't? But it's clear how he does the perpetual persuasion: Don't you doubt me! The fatc that people travel to other cities to hear this kind of 'teachings' shows the represive cult mentality well. Never mind that he has said the same thousand of times before...premies love to be there,with him,receiving 'his grace'...

Is all about devotion and supporting HIS WORK/lifestyle, after all! Any comments?

SB free

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 01:10:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: 'doubt' said 48 times
Message:
Indeed, he said 'doubt' 48 times in the first half of his rant, with a crescendo of usage that then tapers off. Below is the text with 'doubt' in bold. He uses the word doubt to mean different things, mish-mashing it all together without any distinction as to the different meanings, as if it's all the same thing. This creates false associations and it is conditioning. The word doubt here can mean inconfidence in yourself, your ability to meditate, the meditation itself, given interpretations of the experience, or your ability to be happy and relaxed. It can also mean a distrust of 'Maharaji' or a lack of belief in him as 'the Master'. It can mean uncertainty or fear about something or a situation which may in fact BE uncertain. It can mean a lot of things. But here he glops it all together into a confused stew. It's totally false reasoning.

Notes also that he says
'A lot of people write to me...and say..you know....I didn't receive knowledge from you, so, you know, I want to be in your knowledge session. I want to receive knowledge from you. And I say, knowledge is knowledge. Why are you doubting what you have?'.
and yet he still claims there is a need to 'keep in touch' and says that knowledge is not anybody else's to 'give'.

Buenos Aires, Argentina - July 23, 1997 Maharaji speaking to people who have received Knowledge.

So, today... we have an opportunity to listen, and maybe...we can listen in a way which is sincere, which is simple,listen... from this heart. Because that's where the message comes from, from the heart. It's not a philosophy. It's not a concept. It's not an idea. Nothing that is being talked about, here, is going to help you with your job. Is not going to help you with your family. Is not going to help you... in this world. But it only going to help you... you as a human being. And recently in Chile, I did a Knowledge session. I thought that was a very sweet, very beautiful knowledge session, and it was very interesting...I was talking about the 'doubt maker'. And I was saying you know, don't let the doubtmaker come. What you are being given, what you are feeling receive it, accept it, don't doubt it. And it's really amazing... this capacity we have to doubt. Because it isn't just a question of knowledge, because of course, that is there too, but we doubt everything. It's amazing how much we do of this doubting. People doubt whether there is God. They doubt what's going to happen to them. Everything...that we begin to perceive starts to become a doubt. The person, the runner who have being practicing, and practicing and practicing to win.. even in him the doubt creeps in, am I going to win today? We board an airplane, that is simple enough, but the doubt creeps in, am I going to make it OK? Sometimes we get in our car, the doubt comes in, am I going to arrive to the other side? We found ourselves in a traffic sham, the doubt comes in. Am I going to arrive where I'm going in time? doubt. And the doubtmaker lives with us. And all it does, all day long is makes doubts, and doubts, and doubts. ( Louder voice, emphasizing certainty) It doesn't understand certainty. Certainty of this existence. Certainty of being alive. Certainty of being able to receive the joy. Certainty of being fulfilled. It doesn't understand that. All it does is it creates doubts, and creates doubts, and creates doubts.... There are people who have knowledge. There have knowledge! They have the gift...but they doubt it. And then if... they even understand the techniques, they'd gone through a knowledge review, or something like that. They understand the techniques...then they doubt the experience. Some people doubt knowledge. Some people doubt the experience. Some people doubt the master.... They doubt. And...what is being said? Even though it comes from the heart... we tend to doubt that too. And we doubt...our own heart...sometimes, we doubt our own heart. When somebody comes along and gives us a message ...that can benefit us, we doubt that person. So what's left? Is there anything that we don't doubt?(The last sentences were said with a reproach type of voice) And there is always that excuse. Always that excuse...A lot of people write to me...and say..you know....I didn't receive knowledge from you, so, you know, I want to be in your knowledge session. I want to receive knowledge from you. And I say, knowledge is knowledge. Why are you doubting what you have? Why do you doubt? .....Why do you doubt that feeling... that is coming from your heart? Why do you doubt it? Some people, to some people already got a definition of what knowledge should be. ...What should it be?...I arrived.... the day before yesterday... It was dark by the time I got to where I'm staying...and I looked at the skies and they are cloudy... and then, a little bit of sun started to brake through...and this morning... is clear...then this afternoon a few clouds come... then I looked at the satellite picture and there are more coming.... (people laugh)....And what am I looking at? Whenever I look at something from my preconceived idea doubts is bound to come in...doubt is bound to come in...And dealing in a knowledge session with the people...who've just receiving knowledge (sic) and said, look, don't let this doubtmaker come in...because what you are about to receive... is so beautiful...is so simple... that you have to become simple. You don't need to doubt it. Because I say to them, look at these techniques. What do they do? They are too simple. They are not pulling you away. But they are refocusing you to that place which is so much you...but the doubtmaker comes...and what do I need to do? So, and then... in a knowledge session one person said,...he said, okay...today we'll stop this doubtmaker! He received the techniques and said, we'll stop this doubtmaker...and I said, don't underestimate your enemy...(people laugh loud)..Don't!....and then I started to explain something to him...to everybody who was there and now I'll explain it to you too...That the winds will come. The storms, the storms will come. You cannot stop the storms. That's the policy some people adapt in their lives: I will just stop the winds from coming. You cannot...The winds will come. The storms will come. The opportunity for doubts will come, will arise. You cannot stop that. You... this little boat of yours. You know that when those storms come...those storms will devastate you...You know that... But what can you do? Some people go and...try...they are looking for the place where there are no storms.... Some people want to find a place where there are no storms. But let me tell you no such a place exists....... Listen to what I'm saying, don't, I know, some, some of you've already going off and saying, well, there must be a place, there must be a place! ...(funny voice, sarcastic)When I have completely dove into knowledge then there will not be more storms... Then let me tell you I have yet to meet a person like that...I don't know of anybody......You say, maybe I become a monastic, I denounce everything ,then maybe there will be no storms...This is not true. Storms come...for even those who have given up everything...Storms are storms. What do they care?... What do they care?...They will...move, try to move the mountain, and of course, move the grass, and move the soil, and move anything they can move. Storms are storms.... And then there are those people who say my boat is so...worthy... I don't have to worry. Nothing...is worthy...When you see, you know... sometimes in the ocean you see these huge tankers, I mean, they are huuuuge, and the storm have just picked them up and...put them on the beach....Then you realize if the storm can do that... why am I kidding myself...The elements. The winds, the rain, the hail, the lightening... The storm. Nothing is sea worthy enough to take on because there will always be that one storm. So what... what do we have, what option...we...you, me. What option do we have? What can we do? Some people... in their lives they've just said, this is the law, this is what happens... and I don't agree with that either... So then, what is the way? And what I was explaining at that knowledge session that when that storm comes you need good anchorage.... So, find that good anchorage....In the waters of this knowledge, in the ocean of this knowledge, in the bay of this knowledge, in the bay... of the master, in the bay of that sweet and simple devotion, toss your anchor...because there... there is protection. Don't try to change the winds. Don't try to change the lightening. But toss this anchor. And that is the safety... the safety...of this little boat...Not in ideas. Not in the doubtmaker. Not in the fight with the doubtmaker. You can't win. You cannot win that doubtmaker. Because it comes and it preys open. It needs no keys to lacks, it brakes them. It enters where it wants to go...because those...in my opinion who have being given the gift of this knowledge... have so much to cherish, so much to understand, so much to enjoy!...Where the duality.... the duality... of though and heart have being separated.(dramatic, with a pausing weak voice, word by word) It has been clarified that the heart rules in the kingdom within and so it will be the ruler. And the thoughts rule in the world outside and there is where it can rule, but the dominion inside each being, the domain inside each being of... this sweet experience then that is (using a even more dramatic voice) what will rule...And that's what is important. When you can begin in your life, you can begin (loud) to court, to gather, to bring in, to welcome, to welcome clarity...There was this lady and...she knew....and this was when Rama was exhiled...and he had been sent, he was in the jungle, his wife had been stolen by a robber, and he was in his conquest to get her back, and he was traveling...in the jungle, there was this lady, in the story there was this lady and her name was...blank ( can't understand the name, begins with B) and she had heard that Rama is going to go through here on his way...on that search. Now, not, she hadn't heard that Rama was going to come and stay here...that there was just going to be a passage, he was going to go through....And she started to prepare and the preparation... was sooo intense... that everybody who saw her only made fun of her, because everyday she would clean the road, everyday she would put flowers on it, everyday she would go and gather the fruit from the jungle. Everyday, everyday she would prepare, and prepare, and prepare....Preparation....In that preparation she found her joy. It wasn't laborious to her to prepare....And even though people laughed because they did not understand because she had no date of when Rama was going to come through...She just knew, he is gonna come so she started to prepare every single day...and people saw this happening day after day, after day...and they said, she's crazy...she's crazy... And everyday people would go to their work but she would wait....She wanted to be prepared, and let me finish the story and I'll go back to what I'm trying to convey to you here... and one day, one day he came, Rama came, and she was ready...and everybody else, not that....it wasn't like they didn't...not that everybody didn't want to see Rama; everybody wanted to see Rama...but they hadn't prepared and they were not ready and Rama came. And when he came she was, she greeted him. Took him to the room. Offered him food.(GIVE) Offered him rest. And everybody was everywhere else...and then Rama left...and the only difference them saw... that she no longer prepared for him, and they asked her, have you given up? And she said , no, he came and he's gone and she was... happy... that's the story...that's the story....What can I get out of that story...in my life...(strong/loud) That I too in this life need to be prepared and I need to prepare for that clarity to come my way....and that preparation that I need needs to be immaculate!...and I cannot let the doubtmakers come and say you are crazy, your clarity will never take place...can't. I can't afford that! Lately, have you, have I, have we taken a look at things that are important to us?....How long a go have we made such list, taking such an account? When was (bitchy/screaming) the last time....when was the last time of all the things we do...to be quote, end quote 'normal' in this world...when was the last time we took in account of what is really important to you and me? Important...When did we say...that this breath is important to me. When did we say that this feeling is important to me? When did we say that this knowledge is important to me? When did we say that ...this existence is important to me.(so dramatic) ......Whether it's ...or it isn't, only you know.... Either you understand in your life... that to be fulfilled...is important to you...or isn't. To be fulfilled... (strong) Because only then knowledge would make any sense, only then what I'm saying to you would make any sense...When you understand that that is a priority... Because if it isn't, then what difference does it make? .... What difference does it make?... This the proof that he wants premies as much zombie as possible, because, do anybody remembers what being 'too blissed' was like? Like...stupid...? Anyway, the ending of the exact half of the program cited above....Somebody wrote me a letter... this person's a fisherman...and...he received knowledge not too long a go, and this letter was thanking me for this knowledge... and the letter said, I love to practice...I love to practice this knowledge....two hours a day and I'm working on three!....He is up on the North, somewhere... a fisherman...and when I heard that....! When I heard that....all I could say is that is beautiful... That this being, this person has understood something... they... want to make that effort...because it's important! (screaming)...Some people ask why do I have to practice?... I was talking in Chile and I said...ask a musician. A good one, a good musician, not just...just a musician. Ask a musician, a good one, a really good one, why do you have to practice? Don't you know the scales? Are you afraid you will forget the difference between the black and the white keys? Why do you have to practice?....Why? Because it's important! (Stern voice)) Because that practicing is what makes that musician good...when they are freed from the technicalities of pushing keys....then they can get on... with the business of expression. And that's what the difference between a good piece of music and a bad piece of music is...is not notes!...is an expression...And if you are caught in the technicality of pushing the right keys there will be no expression!! Because to be in that place where you can express you have to be free!...of technicalities...End of first half.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:46:18 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Or is it teaching??
Message:
Look SB there are some basics you need to acknowledge.Doubt,though a protection against brainwashing,can also act as an inhibitor to understanding.That applies to any area of learning.If for example you attend a very reputable university and are being taught by a professor of some renown,by virtue of your faith in the source of knowledge you will be more open and therefore gain a better understanding than if you mistrusted his/her credentials.Yes,doubt acts as a filter to prevent information from lodging in your psyche but that isn't always a benefit.You exers equate Maharaji's insistence on not doubting as a plot to brainwash instead of as offering guidance towards learning?Could it be because you are convinced there is nothing to learn?
Besides,a brainwasher attempts to crush doubt using oppressive and personally invasive techniques,eg: sleep depreivation,as opposed to gentle encouragement to keep it in check.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:14:46 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Or is it teaching??
Message:
Hello premie Ji!!

You said:

Look SB there are some basics you need to acknowledge.Doubt,though a protection against brainwashing,can also act as an inhibitor to understanding.That applies to any area of learning.If for example you attend a very reputable university and are being taught by a professor of some renown,by virtue of your faith in the source of knowledge you will be more open and therefore gain a better understanding than if you mistrusted his/her credentials.

In this case it will be of your personal benefit if you begin to doubt Lard because that's exactly what he wants you to do: Filter all the rest and listen to me. You cannot analyse Lard as a devotee and you know it. Devotion MUST kill reasoning in order for knowledge to 'work'. You must accept the master. Do not doubt the master! In fact, you respect him because you haven't understood who he is. What 'you know' is what you believe and who put in your head the concepts you have about Lard? HIM!Because you love and respect Lard you CANNOT think bad of him or 'filter enough' to see his gig. You have accepted his authority in your life and then, how can you be impartial enough to analize what he is telling you to do?

Yes,doubt acts as a filter to prevent information from lodging in your psyche but that isn't always a benefit.

Agree. Lard wants exactly that. He doesn't want you to have the benefit of thinking for yourself or finding new information about 'his knowledge' and doing that he secures his victory over you. He takes your REAL freedom away. How happy are you? Are you longing for him? because if you don't you are not a good devotee. That should tell you something...

You exers equate Maharaji's insistence on not doubting as a plot to brainwash instead of as offering guidance towards learning?Could it be because you are convinced there is nothing to learn?

In this case the teacher is not playing with the cards on the table. He has hidden cards and it's up to you to discover that he's cheating. What does he teaches really?? Please tell me what is it that you learn everytime you hear him? How many times you heard him and couldn't remember crap of what he said, of what YOU heard! Ask yourself why? When I watch a TV program about polluted waters by my area I put attention because it concerns me. I can turn the tv off and remember what I heard because it's important information since I drink water everyday -well, just an example since I don't drink water from the faucet if I can help it- I would remember what I heard and use that information. Why is it that we don't remember what he said? Because what he talks doesn't make any sense. The brain is off. You were put in a trance of some sort and cannot register anyhting! Of course is a lot to learn, you silly! It sounded good when you said it, right? Help yourself: Began to think a little that maybe all is backwards...because it's! The freedom he talks is not real freedom. You were trapped in a cult where the lider wants adoration. He pregrams premies to believe that HIS WORLD is BEAUTIFUL and even that it isn't you go around believing that your envolvement is the best thing that is, just because he carved it on your head. Can you imagine that you HAVE TO have him in your life until you die? Does mahalard HAS the absolute truth? No. He created a trip for you and you are now traveling.

How unrealistic is it to think that a human being can benefit from hearing him?? Premies must fight their own thoughts and doubt them? How is that practical? Is a hell of a way to live, doubting this and that, and that is the main reason why premies are always so confused and needy. I like what Helen wrote to you. Just because he tells you he's your best friend doesn't mean he really is!

Besides,a brainwasher attempts to crush doubt using oppressive and personally invasive techniques ,eg: sleep depreivation,as opposed to gentle encouragement to keep it in check.

Just because the oppressor uses pretty sneaky words doesn't mean that he is not oppressing you. His trapping techniques are sneacky enough that kept me in the cult for 25 years!! I would say that he does his job well: He has managed to mantain people around him for a long time. The brainwasher can use all kind of techniques, especially when they a have a crew like Lard's, 'helping'.

Take care of yourself,

SB

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:20:58 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: O
Subject: O, it's teaching you to obey
Message:
O,
Whoever you are, did you ever go to any of those festivals or aspire to receive knowledge way back when? Sleep deprivation driving to those damn festivals, and doing some shit-ass service, sitting for hours listening to satsang that you were not allowed to debate, discuss, or otherwise engage in dialogue about, was incredibly invasive.

And M telling people not to doubt, it's ridiculous. Telling people they can't win against the doubtmaker...ridiculous again. Certainly a person can be plenty 'open' to new experiences, ideas, and people without silencing their own internal 'doubtmaker'/ie., critical faculties.

The way M always has to paint our minds with this broad brush is so insulting. We are all big boys and girls and can choose and discern for ourselves when we want to be 'open' and when we wish to 'doubt'. And gee, we also are capable of determining when, in a given situation, we perhaps might have or should have been more open, or perhaps, if it was appropriate, more closed. Ya know, it's called reflection: 'Gee, I should have been more open to Dave's idea at that staff meeting' or 'Hey, there is something fishy about that new PTA president. I doubt his sincerity' or 'Hey, these new kiwi flavored fig newtons ARE tasty! Why did I doubt my kid's endorsement of them?? Just being my usual stodgy self, I guess!'

When M talks about not doubting, listen and read him carefully. He is not out to make you a better person, open in some kind of cosmic, humanitarian, self-actualized, expansive way. You don't need a guru for that, honest! No, he is out to get you to be open to HIM. The doubtmaker he wants to silence inside you is the part of you that doubts HIM.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 10:24:15 (GMT)
From: sb
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: O, it's teaching you to obey
Message:
Hi Helen!I liked your message to O: Right on. Lard is disgusting to the maximum degree. Teaching to obey...HIM!

One night I found and heard the begining of the cassette of the program I transcribed (well, my son typed most of it -kids will do anything for money LOL- and I corrected the punctuations and eternal pauses) and decided to post it here because I couldn't believe what I was hearing. I used to travel far away to go hear him say this? If you listen to your mind you'll get confuse. I KNOW, too bad that I didn't know it sooner. Lard brought the main confussion in me and that was to accept him, ugly thing.

Oh yes, Lard hates he doubtmaker because that is the analytical part of your mind and since it's his opposision he wants you to shut it off...and he does it. Eventually after listening to that garbage enough you start to believe it! You explained it well. IMO that is the reason why premies who listen to lard often feel confused and needy, longing for darshan. The feeling of fighting 'the doubtmaker' is so, so horrible because you want all to make sense and it never does. Well, premies have the breath to rock them silly; that can keep them entertained when the doubts arrive. Pathetic!

When M talks about not doubting, listen and read him carefully. He is not out to make you a better person, open in some kind of cosmic, humanitarian, self-actualized, expansive way. You don't need a guru for that, honest! No, he is out to get you to be open to HIM. The doubtmaker he wants to silence inside you is the part of you that doubts HIM.

Lard is such a friend, no?

I send you a hug,

S

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:33:42 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: sb
Subject: Hi SB
Message:
'the feeling of fighting the doubtmaker is so so horrible' making us 'confused and needy'--you said it all, SB, and flashing back to those days I can recall the feelings well. It was all so unnecessary to have such extremes going on in one's mind. It took me a long time to recognize that everything doesn't have to be all or nothing, the way it is in M's world.

It was so long ago for me, but the programming ran deep.

I send a hug back at ya and hope you are well. We go back to the hospital in Philly on Tuesday for the eye oncologist to do a look see at Gary's eye tumor. Pray for him (in your own way, of course), if you don't mind. Glad we weren't there last week when the Republican convention was there--YUCK!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 15:07:17 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Hi SB (ot)
Message:
I'll email you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 23:04:33 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Learning v. testing what you have learned.
Message:
Look O, doubting and questioning are the way we think. It's how you test out what people are telling you. Just acting as an open vessel to a professor and not questioning anything said, is not learning. You might as well just be a computer and have whatever is said downloaded into your brain.

Learning is a process of taking information and building on what you already know, and testing both the new and old information by doubting it, by questioning it. By suspecting that it might not be right. Otherwise, when you learn new things that conflict with what you already know, and if you don't DOUBT, you have to throw out the new, conflicting information.

Look, it's one thing to be 'open' to learning something new and trying to have an open mind about it, to put off questioning until you know in context what is being said. That's fine.

But it is something else to say 'here try this and you'll like it' but if you ever doubt it, if you ever stop having total faith in it, it won't work. THAT is programming, THAT is a cult because everytime you DON'T have the experience Maharaji promises, you blame it on the doubt of your evil mind. Therefore, you never are able to JUDGE whether what Maharaji is teaching actually works. Don't you see that?

When I was a premie 'NEVER LEAVE ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND' was a commandment of Maharaji. According to this 1997 satsang, Maharaji continues to teach the same thing. What I discovered after I left being a premie, was that all I did as a premie was say that everything good that happened was due to Maharaji and everything bad was my mind/doubts. My experience as a premie was just learning how to attribute what happened to me. That was really all it was.

The reason I know this, is that I am actually happier not doing that. I am actually a much happier person not living in that belief system. I've seen it both ways.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:06:00 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Learning v. testing what you have learned.
Message:
You said>>>'...doubting and questioning are the way we think. It's how you test out what people are telling you. Just acting as an open vessel to a professor and not questioning anything said, is not learning. You might as well just be a computer and have whatever is said downloaded into your brain.
Me>>>You totally miss the point I made.Will you not agree that the greater the trust in the person giving you the info the greater the acceptance of the information.I mean if you want to learn to skydive and yuo never trust your teacher enough to jump out of the plane,what will you learn?

You said>>>'What I discovered after I left being a premie, was that all I did as a premie was say that everything good that happened was due to Maharaji and everything bad was my mind/doubts.'
Me>>>God Joe,why do you assume that was what we all did???Yes if that is what you did then you are better off now not doing it.Yes your mind looks for an easy way to explain the stuff that happens to you but for crying out loud you grow out of such infintile explanations as a matter of growing up.Or you don't.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 00:59:22 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: O
Subject: Learning v. testing what you have learned.
Message:
O, I don't know why you bother to post here, because to any objective person your statements sound whacked.

Maharaji wasn't talking about TRUST you dingbat, he was saying you can't doubt. Of course if you TRUST someone you are more likely to believe what they say, but that doesn't mean you suspend all doubts, because, again, doubting is the way a human being thinks and without it, you can't evaluate what is happening to you, which is exactly what Maharaji would like for you to do.

I'm not the only person who got out of the Maharaji cult and has commented on how it was nothing more than a cult of attribution. If you follow what Maharaji says literally, you will just believe you aren't having the experience because you are doubting and you are having it because you aren't. That is a cult. That's exactly what a cult does. It gets you to think in such stupid, illogical, and totally anti-human ways.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:21:21 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: O
Subject: 'infantile explanations'
Message:
Infantile explanations are exactly what Maharaj Ji has to offer, O! Reread the above 1997 satsang, or any other satsang. Notice how many words he uses to explain so little. I'd be surprised if there were another teacher as simpleminded as he.

Sure, the 'Ultimate Reality' may be, essentially, 'simple' in a way, but the path out of our ignorance is anything but simple. If it were truly simple and easy to Awaken, don't you think more people would have done so?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:56:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: O
Subject: You stupid premie, you!
Message:
Doubt,though a protection against brainwashing,can also act as an inhibitor to understanding.That applies to any area of learning.If for example you attend a very reputable university and are being taught by a professor of some renown,by virtue of your faith in the source of knowledge you will be more open and therefore gain a better understanding than if you mistrusted his/her credentials.

Use your head, pumpkin! If you mistrusted your teacher's credentials but still wanted to study with him if'n he was on the level you'd check him out. You'd confirm his credentials, if that's what was troubling you. You'd ask him or you'd ask others and you'd research the areas you didn't simply accept until you had answers you could live with. It's all a matter of reasonableness, isn't it?

But consider Maharaji. Here's a guy who once called himself the Lord of the Universe with absolutely no crednetials to back him up. If he left his papers at home, too bad, because his brother stole them and went down and got his own guru licence. So what you ahve is the ultimate claim with absolutely no proof whatsoever.

But that's jsut the beginning. What can one possibly say to this Lord of the Universe who blatantly lies about his own words and denies the historical record as if he were mad or cynical beyond comprehension? Read his FAQ on EV. Then read his quotes on the DLM / EV Papers section of this site and weep.

But forget about all that, if it's too traumatic for you. Just deal with the current 'Master' shit. What credentials support that claim? A bunch of happy cult members? Those are the ones that stayed, what about the majority -- us, in fact -- that left?

Oh it goes on and on and on and on. You guys are all dunces. All of you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:11:02 (GMT)
From: O
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Stick and stones...
Message:
You said>>>' Just deal with the current 'Master' shit. What credentials support that claim? '
Me>>>The only credentials I give a shit about Jim,ie: Peace that passes all understanding.Something you forgot you once felt.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:35:52 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Prepare to prepare and don't you doubt it!
Message:
Maharaji said this same, pathetic, story back when I was a premie, drone on.

, in the story there was this lady ..and she had heard that Rama is going to go through ..And she started to prepare and the preparation... was sooo intense... that everybody who saw her only made fun of her, because everyday she would clean the road, everyday she would put flowers on it, everyday she would go and gather the fruit from the jungle. Everyday, everyday she would prepare, and prepare, and prepare....Preparation....In that preparation she found her joy.....And even though people laughed because they did not understand because she had no date of when Rama was going to come through...She just knew, he is gonna come so she started to prepare every single day... And everyday people would go to their work but she would wait....She wanted to be prepared, and one day, one day he came, Rama came, and she was ready...but they hadn't prepared and they were not ready and Rama came. And when he came she was, she greeted him. Took him to the room. Offered him food.(GIVE) Offered him rest. And everybody was everywhere else...and then Rama left...and the only difference them saw... that she no longer prepared for him, and they asked her, have you given up? And she said , no, he came and he's gone and she was... happy... that's the story...that's the story....

So, the lady cleaned the road and her house and waited for the master to come, and did nothing else, and was fulfilled. What a pile of crap. What a self-demoralizing pile of shit. This is NOT what a human being is, a being subjected to the hope that somebody might show up sometime, that some day, something is going to happen to make you fulfilled, and the constant, practice, drudgery to be READY. Total, cultic, Hindu self-destructive bullshit and I completely reject this has having anything to do with being a vital, happy, fulfilled human being.

And don't doubt part of it is so transparent. Maharaji is saying nothing other than what the Catholic Church says. Have faith, because this thing doesn't work if you don't believe in it. Why? Because the 'experience' is of faith and belief, it isn't a 'real' experience.

Hey, doubt is a really good thing. I don't stick my fingers into the electric pencil sharpener because I doubt I can do it and not get damaged. I doubt when I get a 'win a million dollars' but I have to send in money to get it. Yeah, I doubt that. And it's a really good thing I do. And it's also really healthy to 'doubt' a snake oil salesman guru/master who says that you can't have the 'true experience of your heart' if you doubt it or him, if you don't have complete faith in it and him. God, if you believe that Ritz Crackers are the source of happiness and fulfilling for you heart, and refuse to doubt it, yeah, you will have the very same experience.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:06:17 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Rama came
Message:
'...And even though people laughed because they did not understand because she had no date of when Rama was going to come through...She just knew, he is gonna come so she started to prepare every single day... And everyday people would go to their work but she would wait....She wanted to be prepared, and one day, one day he came, Rama came, and she was ready...but they hadn't prepared and they were not ready and Rama came. And when he came she was, she greeted him. Took him to the room. Offered
him food.(GIVE) Offered him rest. [and what else?] And everybody was everywhere else...and then Rama left...and the only difference them saw... that she no longer prepared for him, and they asked her, have you given up? And she said , no, he came and he's gone and she was...happy...'

I wonder what he was thinking about.

Besides that, you know he just has to have the finest accomodations wherever he goes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:36:43 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: The sexual overtones.......of the cult
Message:
That was always there, wasn't it? I mean the whole Krishna/Gopi thing was pretty overtly sexual, and when Maharaji danced half naked on the stage dressed like Krishna, wearing gold crowns and pearls, that might have been there as well, although, I, personally, can't say I ever saw the slightest thing sexually attractive about Maharaji. This was the source of some guilt for me, and it was weird to see ostensibly straight male premies fawn over Maharaji's form in obviously sexual terms.

But why else would Maharaji take off half his clothes and dance like that? Was it supposed to be sexual? Well, for many of us it didn't work, but it seemed to work for some.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:58:18 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: a pick-up line
Message:
Me Krishna, you Gopi.

Maybe a few blondes have fallen for that one.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:04:49 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: a pick-up line
Message:
Maybe a few blondes have fallen for that one.

Only if he was VERY lucky and they were dyed blond - I figure it was the redheads he usually got.

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:37:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: no offense intended
Message:
I was only referring to the allegations about him having affairs with blonds. That was not intended, generally speaking, as a 'dumb blond' remark. These women just happened to be blond and he (allegedly) likes blonds. As to his appeal, maybe its his money, power, or role as 'the Master', its certainly not his looks. I remember his wife, in front of thousands of premies, talking about how 'He hasn't come in the most perfect form.' or something like that, which I guess could have more than one meaning.

G

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:25:39 (GMT)
From: Tami Rainbow
Email: None
To: G
Subject: no offense intended
Message:
I am nut offended at all, G. I am nut a reel blond so I am nut reely dum. I got my blond from a box called 'Nice and Eazy' Just liike me!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:33:36 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Tami Rainbow
Subject: LOL Tami!
Message:
Apologies that I forgot to include those who dye their hair with the redheads I hadn't intended to offend! You always did handle this 'blonds' stuff better than me!

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 15:31:14 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hey, I'm a blonde! (way, WAY, ot)
Message:
Stonor, you, Tami, and G are on a roll - you might as well make a blanket apology to women of ALL hair colors (snicker).

Blondes get a bad rap - I ALWAYS have to say 'I'm smarter than I look' because of stuff like this :):

Because I'm blonde...
I never learned to read, and I never learned to cook.
Why should I bother when I look like I look?
I know lots of people are smarter than me,
But I have this philosophy:
'So what?'

I took a VD test, and I passed it, of course.
I can't spell VW, but I got a Porsche,
I'm a blonde; don't you wish you were me?

I just want to say that being chosen this month's Miss August
Is, like, a compliment that I'll remember for as long as I can.
Right now I'm a freshman in my fourth year at UCLA,
And my goal is to become a vetrinarian because I love children.
Because I'm blonde, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Because I'm blonde, yeah!

(apologies to Julie Brown, who I am sure is a brunette.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:41:42 (GMT)
From: Tami R.
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hi Stoner
Message:
Hi Stonor,
Is yer name 'cuz you liike to smoke marywanna? I liik to too, so duz Maraji. One time my boyfriend Tommi Lee and me were at the rezidunce and Maraji asked me to roll ajoint for him. Of course, Tommi Lee wuz mad when Maraji asked him to leeve. He knows that Maraji wantsme to do servise on him when ever we get stoned. Oh well, whatever Maraji wants he gets, still it's really not my favorite service but you can't be picky, you just hafta surrender by his grace even if it meens doing some yucky servis sometimes. Maraji tells me it's for my own spitichual developement. So I trust him and obey his agya. ALl thees stopid ex-preemies shuld stop and think about that, that they should surrender the rains of there lifes back to Maraji and then they culd get screwed jus lke me!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:34:47 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Tami R.
Subject: Hi Tammy Reinglo!
Message:
Okai Tammy Reinblow!

Nou uuv dun it! Messin wit mi famyli naim nou r yuh? U jes keap dem joynt token joaks fir u und yur Toomi Li und Muckaji thar! Sheet eets hord wirk ta spill baad! Und whi dincha rite bout yir scruin Muckaji wen hummy axed?

Stonir

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:06:37 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Hi Tammy Reinglo!
Message:
I followed you as far as 'wen hummy axed' (???) Please, Tami translator needed!! Is there a linguist in the house????
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:39:10 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Now you know how we feel when Tami gets going! ot
Message:
'When hammy (hamzen/ham) asked!'

You wouldn't believe how many of my adult-ed high school students spelled and pronounced it that way! (direct relation, even more OT!)

(I think I've been away too long! I'm getting nervous looking at the posts below!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:44:10 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Now you know how we feel when Tami gets going! ot
Message:
OHHHH! Now I get it! Hammy !! Yes, I have heard that axed thing too, too many times!! I vaguely remember reading a post between you and hammy along those lines. Looks like we are all here at the same time! WHoo hooo
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:51:24 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Glad I finally made it back! (ot)
Message:
Hope I haven't missed ALL the fun! I guess there's still some beer, because Jim hasn't arrived yet. But where are the guys? It looks like G is having another private research party again up there. Work work work! Uh oh . . just had one of those deja voodoos . . . are Tami and Tommi bogarting a joint somewhere around here? And who invited that woman in the moose costume? What some people wear and think they're sexy! Oh well, she might be attractive to sh(ee)p!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 15:49:01 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Glad I finally made it back! (ot)
Message:
LOL, Stonor! It is a little strange having on on-line party, isn't it. It is sort of a party on a cerebral level. Have you had the honor of meeting anyone from the forum in the flesh? It actually does make a good party, I think you'd enjoy it.

Yes, moose suits are not sexy but you know those Swedish men have their repressed sexual side so...thus the idea of a woman clad in 4 inches of fur.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 22:41:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Glad I finally made it back! (ot)
Message:
Yes, a little strange, but a lot of fun! What do you exes put in the punch! No, I haven't yet had the honor of meeting anyone off-line (yet?), but it was great to get a beautiful picture of Katie and Brian last week! (And I didn't see ANYthing that even approached a 'big ass' in that pic! Katie, what ARE you talking about - is it a Swedish thing?) And of course, I did see those 'Latvian-event' pics that J-M posted a while ago! Where have they gone? It is really nice to see who you have been enjoying having cyber-communications with, and I'm sure it would be a LOT of fun to have the opportunity to get together in 3D. Any dates for an upcoming Latvian event in bus-distance of where I live? (And I don't know if it's because I'm still relatively new to this medium, but I find it strangely exhausting. Probably because we can't see the other's face and body-language etc., but I also think it has to do with the screen)

Where did you get the blond hair curse from, Helen? Am I right to read 'Sweden'? With regards to the temperaments of Swedes, I had a Swedish friend who told me that all the Swedes go to Denmark for fun! They must be aberrations from the norm though?! And I hadn't come close to anticipating your explanation of why that Minnesota Housewife's husband wanted her to wear that moose-suit! LOL!!!

What will the FA think of the mess we've left behind! ;-)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Aug 07, 2000 at 23:59:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: hey Stonor
Message:
I'm not really a blond, I just play one on TV! Well, I am a dark blond who lightens her hair. Me roots are Welsh-Irish. A bunch of melancholy drunks be we. How bout you, what are your roots?

Yes the forum is exhausting. I try to indulge in it in small doses or I get sucked into its vortex too much and then find myself walking around blinking into the sunlight and thinking too much about the last post I read or the next one I will write. If you ever want to email, my email is HelenRDC@aol.com

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:39:04 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Tami Rainbow
Subject: no offense intended
Message:
So wut are you reel, a redhed?

Disclaimer:
No offense to redheads suggested, this is only a joke.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 14:42:56 (GMT)
From: Tami Rainbow
Email: None
To: G
Subject: no offense intended
Message:
I am a dirty blond.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:17:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Tami Rainbow
Subject: Not rainbow coloured?
Message:
Hey Tami!

Now you've pushed my sister's button - she HATES that expression and says, 'It's not dirty! The problem is that everyone thinks bottled blond is blond, and the extremely light blond is very rare.' How about honey blond? And Tami, before I remembered that you are blond yourself, I was imagining you a la Todd Rundgren circa 1974! His hair was a long shaggy rainbow at the time!

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:13:21 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Not rainbow coloured?(Ot)
Message:
Did Todd really have rainbow hair??? God, he is a good songwriter. Then again, there are so many musicians of his era I adore. Watching VH-1, it's hard to pull myself away from these shows like 'the top 100 rock and roll hits' and see people like Clapton, Bruce Springsteen, Elvis, and Karen Carpenter and Aerosmith all under the category of rock n roll. too funny.

Tami is one of those real peroxide blondes that you know comes straight out of the bottle. The thing about Tami is what you see is what you get, and her dumbness is about all you get!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:29:09 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: 'Dishwater' blonde is what I say
Message:
At least it's not 'dirty'. (BTW, Tami probably can't remember what her real hair color is.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:42:00 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Dishwater IS dirty if you wash your dishes in it!
Message:
And it's clear with white foam on top before that. Where are you going here Katie! And I certainly wouldn't describe your hair colour as 'dishwater' blond!

Why hasn't Jim jumped on this conversation yet? We've been off topic too! (And without 'ot'ing our posts!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 19:07:19 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Well, you and G started it! (WAY OT)
Message:
Although G was sort of on-topic in his first post, but...(He is right about M preferring blondes, BTW.)

I like the term 'dishwater blonde' because it's distinctly non-glamorous, and free of 'blonde' connotations. Honestly, if anyone is half-Swedish like me, they think BRUNETTES are glamourous and exotic. Swedes tend to get depressed and drink too much.

Do you think 'dumb blonde' came from 'dumb Swede'? (My grandfather used to get called 'dumb Swede' - hard to believe that people were once prejudiced against Swedes, but it's true.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:20:43 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Well, you and G started it! (WAY OT)
Message:
Hey Katie, how do you tell when a Swede is outgoing? When he looks at your shoes when he talks to you instead of at *his* shoes. Bu dum dum dum.

Regarding blondes, Katie somehow it is hard to imagine you being mistaken for a 'dumb' anything. Seriously you are so sharp mentally, even being able to remember how this whole thread started, which I long forgot. I do call my memory problems these days 'blonde moments' and not being a true blonde (but a bottle one, ha ha), perhaps I am not sensitive enough to the plight of blondes being misunderstood. I guess ALL women have that problem anyway, not being taken seriously, that is. I don't think it is isolated to hair color!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:29:29 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Right on, sister! (ot)
Message:
I guess ALL women have that problem anyway, not being taken seriously, that is. I don't think it is isolated to hair color!

I agree. You just have to keep on persevering, and sometimes nothing works, no matter what color your hair is (I did get the coal miners to realize that I was an actual person after about a year, so there CAN be progress.)

BTW, BAD Swedish joke. Get MN Housewife to tell you the one about the lutefisk under the house :). It's a lot better - and much more un-PC.

Love you -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:40:22 (GMT)
From: Minnesota Housewife
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Right on, sister! (ot)
Message:
Oh I just love that luteke fish joke there now Katie, doncha know! Well, I sure can relate to what you all have been talking about tonight, being taken seriously and that, remember what I went through with that Jahn Jahnson? He thought my name was 'doormat' but he sure changed his tune when I drove his tractor right through his barn! You betcha!

I honestly think that women have to be tougher and not take that bullshit. WHen i finally put my foot down and stopped wearing the moosesuit for Jahn Jahnson, now that was the turning point. I just wasn't going to be his little moose anymore and I never did enjoy that. Has that ever happened to you? Signing off with love from Minnehaha Moose Falling Water Falls
Minnesota Housewife

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 20:10:15 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Know WAI! Itt wuz TAMMEE!!! (OT)
Message:
Well I tried to keep it a bit on topic - let's blame it on Tami! She seems to get away with even bad spelling without anyone ever trying to correct her (guess no one has a lifetime to spend on a lost cause! ;-)

And personally I'm sick of hearing about anyone who prefers blonds, brunettes, Asian, big asses or anything like that! There was a hilarious song on 'Night Music'(10 years ago?) about big asses, which is why the last example came to mind - the chorus went, and I'll never forget, 'Brenda's got a big old ass . . . so I'm leaving you!', complete with beautiful back-up babes with bigger ones than I could ever dream of having!

As far as 'dumb Swede' goes, I'm sure it's connected to the 'dumb blond', but why does 'dumb blond' refer only to women? And consider the 'Swedish' 'Golden Girls' character (Betty White?) . . . and her 'stories' . . . it continues in prime time. It's all really tiresome and reminds me of the zoo scene in 'Stranger in a Strange Land' when the main character finally understands 'human' humour watching the chain of monkey 'bullies' as each found another small enough to pick on after being bullied itself. Each stream of immigrants seems to have been treated similarly upon their arrival. The root of it is probably in the second language issue in some cases, but that isn't the only reason. I was not too surprised to find the same kind of 'jokes' running in Peru. The Limenians would make them about the Arequipenians etc. At least I didn't hear any dumb blond jokes there!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 00:05:40 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: big asses (OOT)
Message:

And personally I'm sick of hearing about anyone who prefers blonds, brunettes, Asian, big asses or anything like that! There was a hilarious song on 'Night Music'(10 years ago?) about big asses, which is why the last example came to mind - the chorus went, and I'll never forget, 'Brenda's got a big old ass . . . so I'm leaving you!', complete with beautiful back-up babes with bigger ones than I could ever dream of having!

Speaking about that preference, here's a few lyrics from the song 'Big Bottom' by Spinal Tap from their album 'This is Spinal Tap':

Big bottom
Big bottom
Talk about mud flaps
My gal's got 'em.
Big bottom
Drive me out of my mind.
How can I leave this behind?
Full lyrics

DISCLAIMER:
This post should not be construed as being derogatory nor as being lustful for women (and especially not men) with big bottoms. For entertainment purposes only.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:07:53 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: big asses (OOT)
Message:
Oh well, may as well go for broke on this non-PC topic - damn the cost - I'll just have to watch out for pink torpedoes! (or should that be flying bottles of peroxide, or maybe someone is just going to sit on me!)

The first three verses were even funnier than the last! I'm ashamed to admit that I am only familiar with one Spinal Tap song. My music comes to me in tidal waves or deserts. Lately it's been a desert, but at least I have a CD player now (and 2! (I'm glad turntables are in the past - I was still calling everything that played a record a record player!)

Thanks for the laugh G!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:03:53 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: big asses (OOT)
Message:
Oh well, may as well go for broke on this non-PC topic - Damn the cost - I'll just have to watch out for pink torpedoes! (or should that be flying bottles of peroxide or maybe someone is going to sit on me!)

The first three verses were even funnier than the last! I'm ashamed to admit that I am only familiar with one Spinal Tap song. My music comes to me in tidal waves or deserts. Lately it's been a desert, but at least I have a CD player now! (and 2 CDs to play on it!)

Thanks for the laugh G!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:13:18 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Now how did I manage that?
Message:
It's a special skill of mine, but just call me an ass! Okay, a BIG ass!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:39:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Only ONE song?
Message:
You're only familiar with ONE Spinal Tap song? Where have you been? Have you seen their movie?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:49:54 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: I think I heard something about it . . .
Message:
It was on a tape someone gave me. I've been busy...for a long time, and then there were the years in Peru. Do YOU know 'Vamos a la Playa? And I hate listening to radio announcers and advertising... C'mon, you were supposed to laugh, not go into shock!!! Maybe I'll rent a video this summer!

Taking a break from the paper chase?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:13:19 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Vamos a la Playa?
Message:
YOU were supposed to laugh, see Helen's post below for a hint. I didn't expect you to know.

No, I'm not familiar with Vamos a la Playa, it looks like there's more than one at Amazon.

Yea, taking a break.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 05:26:44 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Vamos a la Playa?
Message:
Sorry, forgot to 'emoticon'!! I was laughing!!! :-)

And don't bother to go looking for lyrics... That's about it for 'Vamos a la Playa', except for the 'Oh, oh-oh-oh-oh-oh' part. I wish I could get that song out of my head! (In case you don't know how that translates, it means 'Let's go to the beach. I saw a 'punk' concert once there (read rich kids pretending). And I met Jose Feliciano too(!), just in case you've been wondering where he's been lately - but that was in the mid-eighties, sorry. He tried to buy me with drugs - sight unseen! With that very bad joke (true though) - and is nothing and no one sacred in this thread (?!!!) - I should get to bed. But I am also quite familiar with dated Hong Kong music videos as well, so there!!! ;-)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:27:44 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: big asses (OOT)
Message:
Oh God, G, that movie was so damn funny. I loved the 'heavy metal memories' and the songs with titles like 'big bottom' and 'lick my love pump' Too funny. But the mivie was so close to the truth, last night Gary and I were watching VH-! and some band had a song called 'Lick it up' Was it Kiss , Aerosmith or Van Halen?

My all time favorite line from This is Spinal Tap was 'but this one goes up to 11' or how 'bout when one of the guys in the band got the metal detector going in the airport because he had a cucumber wrapped in foil down his tight tight pants? HA HA

Loved your disclaimer BTW (which got more elaborate with every post I noticed--ha ha)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:55:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Kiss (OOT)
Message:
It was Kiss, see Lick It Up lyrics. Very spiritually uplifting.

That's also my favorite line, 'up to 11'.

DISCLAIMER:
The above link is not an endorsement of Kiss, Heavy Metal, or any other kind of demonic music, nor was I paid to post said link.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 16:02:16 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Gene Simmons' tongue is like a giraffe's!!
Message:
Glad to see you are spending your time in such elevating research pursuits, snicker! Gary will LOVE seeing those lyrics. I had a strange spiritual experience regarding my old dog (now deceased) a few weeks ago. Email me sometime and I'll tell ya about it. How ya been anyway? How do you like living in the west coast washington this summer? HA HA All this rain we're having has shown me I could never live in Seattle. Hope you are doing well.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Aug 08, 2000 at 03:23:00 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I'll email you (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 01:41:29 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: G and Stonor
Subject: Y'all are WAY out of hand (oot)
Message:
First you pick on blondes, then on people with big butts! (Yeah, I read your 'disclaimer', G - so what!) All the kids in my family - male and female - have been cursed by something we call the 'Swedish Butt'. Definitely the opposite of the anorexic models that are so favored by the media (my sister calls people like that 'negative ass'.)

Anyway, watch it - both of y'all are getting WAY too personal here.

TC & snicker -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:43:05 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Y'all are WAY out of hand (oot)
Message:
Had a post to you on this but lost it. It must be time to go to bed again.

Oh yes, something about Swedes being the butt of yet another joke! And you were making that one yourselves?!!! Sheesh(!), as you say around here. By the way, when I was young I got some joke about having to stick out my tongue or I'd go down the drain with my bathwater.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 03:33:57 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Y'all are WAY out of hand (oot)
Message:
Swedish Butt Syndrome. Well, I happen to LIKE big butts except mine--ha ha. Hell, I thought Oprah looked better before she got so crazy with all that weight loss stuff. I say 'hang it up' and just accept ourselves as we are and let it all hang out. Wow, that is so deep and heavy and profound. But seriously, doesn't it seem like every woman on the planet isn't happy with herself? gary says big butts look like 'two bowling balls fighting to get out of the bag' he loves big butts, BTW
Helen, in a rare moment of lucidity--ha ha!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 04:18:00 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Y'all are WAY out of hand (oot)
Message:
Hey Helen -
The weirdest thing now is that most of the time now I just do not CARE or think about what I look like. I am too busy thinking about other stuff! I keep wondering if I'm 'letting myself go' - then I realize I never did that much to keep up my appearance in the first place (I have used the same eye pencil for 10 years - so you can tell how often I use it!)

I agree about every woman on the planet thinking she doesn't look good enough...or at least every WHITE woman. Some black women I know love the way they look - and they don't worry about big butts either!

TC, girlfriend, and to your right-thinking husband, too :) -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 15:57:59 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Y'all are WAY out of hand (oot)
Message:
Yeah, my friend Natalie can't believe how we white women go on about our weight. Meanwhile, we are missing out on all the fun, we should wear the clothes we WANT to wear, not the ones that are sitting in our closets waiting til we lose 10 lbs. Do black women do that --NO! They style even if they have a big butt.

But Natalie says black women fret alot about their hair. That is their neurotic equivilent to our preoccupation with our weight. We all have inherited some big hang up from somewhere.

Helen, socio-anthropologist to the stars

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 01:58:56 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: no offense intended
Message:
Thanks for your explanation. I understand. And no offense intended on my part with regard to red-heads. And how superficial for a man who pretended to be God have a preference for blonds.

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:43:32 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: goober deconstructed
Message:
So, today... we have an opportunity to listen, and maybe...we can listen in a way which is sincere, which is simple,listen... from this heart.

Immediately here, goober is giving the command to suspend rational thinking. Many are already experiencing alpha brain states just being there. It's a trained response and goober steps right up to reinforce this.

Because that's where the message comes from, from the heart. It's not a philosophy. It's not a concept. It's not an idea.

Again an appeal to stop thinking rationally and to go deeper into trance (apologies to Nigel.)

Nothing that is being talked about, here, is going to help you with your job. Is not going to help you with your family. Is not going to help you... in this world. But it only going to help you... you as a human being.

Family, job, world, are divorced from 'being human' in this statement. And knowledge is not to be judged in these terms. It has value but you can't measure it.

Hey this is a lot of work. The rest of the 'doubtmaker' stuff is such pure in your face programming that it doesn't need or deserve the effort to deconstruct. Suffice it to say, he sets his victims up, makes sure they go into and stay in an altered state, and pumps his one-pointed crap into there minds. Frightening stuff, really.

Great job transcribing this stuff, SB. It's really damning.

And recently in Chile, I did a Knowledge session. I thought that was a very sweet, very beautiful knowledge session, and it was very interesting...I was talking about the 'doubt maker'. And I was saying you know, don't let the doubtmaker come. What you are being given, what you are feeling receive it, accept it, don't doubt it. And it's really amazing... this capacity we have to doubt. Because it isn't just a question of knowledge, because of course, that is there too, but we doubt everything. It's amazing how much we do of this doubting. People doubt whether there is God. They doubt what's going to happen to them... BLAH, BLAH, BLAH

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:29:01 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: goober deconstructed
Message:
Hey Gerry
'Listen from this heart....'

everything is always 'this' and 'that', ie 'this heart' 'that feeling'

this that this that.
Sheesh!

But ya know--it's like politics, it's all a con job. Just like the Republican convention, and no doubt like the Democratic convention will be. All the sincerity money can buy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:28:05 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: 'All the sincerity money can buy': LOL (nt)
Message:
perfect!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:04:05 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: How Lard do the PROGRAMMING/BRAINWASHING, here
Message:
You know, I read this stuff, and I ask myself, who does this motherfucker think he is, telling me what's precious in my life and what isn't? I have Knowledge, and yes I doubt it. I doubt it because I fall asleep practicing it 9 times out of 10. I daydream practicing it after, oh, 5 minutes or so. If it's so fucking great, how come it's such a fucking chore to practice it, huh? I know what I want and when I have it, AND THAT AIN'T FUCKING KNOWLEDGE!!!

Go fuck yourself, Maharaji. You've conned me long enough. In my eyes, you have become pure evil. I hate your fucking guts. I hope you choke on your cognac. Think of me grinning when you do, you cocksucker. I despise you. You are a liar, through and through. I hope the IRS gets you and shoves your millions up your ass. Fuck you!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:35:32 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Amen
Message:
I hate the mother fucking bastard too, with passion!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:47:34 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Do I detect rotting vegetables ???
Message:

Did you guys lose your blankies or sumthin? This is the Lard of the Universe we're talkin' about here...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:31:54 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Do I detect rotting vegetables ???
Message:
Knowledge is THE rotten vegetable.I'm mad because he wanted me to get stucked with it forever. Now I find enjoyment in reminding him that I know how he did it. Yes, hate is a pretty strong emotion but that is what I feel for lard today. Nobody or anything has hurted me like he did. He took a part of me that I will never get back. Is about trust, you know?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 00:55:06 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: the rotten turnip is just a pile of fly blown dung
Message:
Our trust is what shone. Yes, misplaced, so I've taken mine back.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:05:07 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: You're all wrong
Message:
Unfortunately, the rotting vegetable was what we were listening to and following all those years. It used to sit on a throne and put a crown on its head. Sometimes it would stand up and wave its arms about. At other times it would scream and yell at us and tell us how bad we were.

This vegetable also used to preach celibacy and social isolation whilst indulging in a string of affairs and drinking heavily and taking drugs. This vegetable tried to use us. Now this vegetable has started to stink with its lies and refusal to admit to its past and the damage it has done.

This vegetable lies, cheats and swindles. Nothing that it says is true or real and never was. When you dig up a vegetable like this one it's best to throw it out immediately because it is highly toxic and poisonous to the system. It can ruin your life if you eat it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 13:54:35 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: EV's absolutely right! HE DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THIS
Message:
The general picture I get watching at all this is that the Malibu residence, Amaroo, the G4, Amaroo, Santyogashram, and all these very costly toys (glider, helicopter, small aircraft), and yacht are owned by shell corporations, managed by premies, and some non-profit organizations (Seva ?) behind the scene.

This means that Mr Rawat doesn't own any of this, which makes him pretty much immune in case of an IRS problem.

Same thing for Elan Vital: all the money it's been getting from various sources (donations, profits from sales, programs etc) is used for the sake of 'propagation' (which has already fallen off the table, according to Him), i.e. funding Rawat's costly toys and residences.

Why use those shell corporations and OTHER non-profit organizations ?

Simple: to avoid having all this in EV's books! Because THAT picture would be pretty much outrageous: having SO MUCH MONEY spent for Mr Rawat's toys, when so little is actually being spent for the real (according to its status) purpose of EV: teaching, renting halls etc.

All the money he gets directly on HIS bank account (very likely quite a lot every month - maybe 1/2 million $) is what's really used for his personal expenses, which is also perfectly legal.

OR maybe I'm totally wrong, and Mr Rawat is the actual owner of all these items, which I tend not to believe. Because I'm sure IRS already has an eye on all this.

Is this what it's all about ?

And I can understand why EV presents all this misleading information: they tell the truth when they say he doesn't own any of this. But (thanks to the system that's been set up) they hide the main part: all this is paid by EV, for His sole use ...... which is perfectly legal in the US!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 03:22:01 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Actually that could all backfire
Message:
because if the IRS were to decide that Elan Vital did not deserve their charitable status, and never did, they would promptly seize all its assets. Which would domino into their being unable to pay (directly or indirectly) SEVA and the other shells whatever monthly amounts it takes to pay for the rez, the planes etc. Which could end up in his lardship having to cough up the mortgages himself or bunk up with RJ and fly commercial.

Pure fantasy of course, but who knows? It all needs to start with an investigation by the IRS into their claim for church status. That taken away, they will have to file many years worth of accounts, which we would obtain, scrutinize and use to inform the IRS of glaring discrepancies, and shady dealings on an international scale.

I don't think it would take much prodding either, to put a hole in their claim for charitable status. It is pretty obvious to anyone who cares to examine the issues and the Internal Revenue Code, that their function is to provide support for a private individual's chosen lifestyle and personal quest, in contrast with the requirement that it be for the public good. The onus, the 'burden of Proof' as the Code puts it, would be on them to demonstrate that gummy bear's refried yoga techniques are benefitting the public in a charitable way.

A simple way to invalidate that would be to make the Knowledge techniques freely and publically available. To the best of my knowledge (no pun intended) they are not copywrited, trademarked or otherwise protected by law. Sure, EV's and the lard's writings, photos, music etc are, but who needs them? Now that the K. is being dished out on DVD, CDROM or whatever, they can't claim it takes any special one-on-one interaction by lardy to 'charitably benefit or educate the public'. Shit, lets make our own DVD. Who's got clean fingernails?:)

They cannot use the cover of it being 'educational', as the Code is very specific about the requirements for a permanent, physical buiding where classes are held, regular students, formal curriculum etc etc. 'Religious' is immediately ruled out by their own advertising copy, proclaiming it not be a religion and not requiring any doctrine or form of belief. Again the IRS Code is very clear on this.

Would they pass the 'Organizational' and 'Operational' tests? Well to determine that, we would need to examine their Articles of Incorporation, and see how they measure up to the EO Manual. Anyone get hold of these?

So it is not enough for Elan Vital to be 'non-profit' (which BTW is a State concept and not recognised in the IRS Code) by balancing its books in whatever creative ways it does so: any company can end it's financial year likewise and not be de facto tax-exempt. Were the IRS to inspect their status today, the Burden of Proof would be on them to demonstrate two things immediately:

That they are a Church, as recognized in the IRS EO Manual and Court precedents

That they are Charitable in both the common usage of the term, as outlined in the EO Manual and by Court precedents.

Who here thinks they would come through smelling of gardenias?

The only reason they continue to get away with this massive (I have heard between $10 - 15 million pa) income without paying tax and without having to account for a penny of it, is that they are riding on the grace of a 28 year-old IRS application which somehow they managed to get rubber-stamped.

The contention that gummy bear will get away scot-free when the proverbial s. hits the fan, is also flawed. As I started in this post, take away his free room and board and give him a bus pass would be a fitting start. Then down the road a bit, when the books are finally opened up and we start to see unrelated business expenses emerging, with gummy as the unqualified beneficiary, they may just start taking another look at his 1040's (you know how far back they can go, don't you? As far as they like!). Once EV is no longer looked upon as a charity, all those free rides in the GulfStream, 106 foot yacht, flash pad in Malibu etc, could well be looked at as taxable quid pro quo benefits. Ouch, expensive!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 06:09:00 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Too much service can be bad for you
Message:
This may or may not be relevant, but it illustrates what fascinating info is out there:

Extract from IRS Publication Unrelated Business Income of Exempt Organisations, 1996.

Income from Controlled Organizations.

When an exempt organization controls another organization (as described below), the gross annuities, interest, rents, and royalties from the controlled organization are included in the gross UBI [unrelated business income, ie TAXABLE - rob] of the controlling organization at a specified ratio, depending on whether the controlled organization is tax-exempt or not.

For Tax Year 1995 “control” meant:

(a) for a stock corporation, the ownership of stock possessing
at least 80 percent of the total combined voting power of all classes of stock entitled to vote, and ownership of at least 80 percent of the total number of shares of all other classes of stock of the corporation;

or (b) for a nonstock organization, at least 80 percent of the directors or trustees of the organization were either representatives of, or directly or indirectly controlled by, a tax-exempt organization.

I wonder what they could include in the phrase 'directly or indirectly controlled by'. Being members of the same 'church', perhaps?

What that all means in a nutshell is, say a bunch of the honchos at a certain tax-exempt organisation were doing double-duty as officers of a shell corporation, which was being contracted and paid by that 'charity', such income would be classified 'unrelated business income' and be liable for tax. The same applies if 80% of the officers of the shell corp. were considered to be 'controlled by' the charity org. - church members, devotees of its figurehead, etc etc. A rule designed, no doubt, to prevent any fiddling of the books by charities setting up shell corporations comprised of its own members.

Interesting, n'est-ce pas? I know its 1996 info, but I hardly doubt that any later revisions do anything more than fill more loopholes. Also, even though it just refers to rents, annuities etc, I'm sure that eventually I'll find rules relating to other types of income too.

It's all out there, you just have to grab a spade and dig.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 12:06:08 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: YOUR service is good!
Message:
Just to tell you that I appreciate a lot the info you bring here.

Just curious: Where is all going? Have you wrote the IRS?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 14:02:48 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV's absolutely right! HE DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THIS
Message:
People can hold shares as proxies for you. So the ultimate owner of those companies is M himself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 15:02:52 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: EddyTheTurtle
Subject: EV's absolutely right! HE DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THIS
Message:
OK, that's a possibility.

The next question is: is there any way to know who holds the shares of thoses companies ? Is this public ? Is there any way to access this data ?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:53:53 (GMT)
From: EddyTheTurtle
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV's absolutely right! HE DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THIS
Message:
There is no way of knowing who the final beneficiries of the shares are. Normaly these proxy arrangement are entered into by private treaties. That means I own the shares in the company and I enter into a private treaty with you , a wriiten agreement, whereby I state that I actually am not the owner but own the shares on your behalf. I guess that's exactly whats happening with M's companies. He holds private agreements with all the or some of the shareholders.

Unless some of the people who hold shares for M renegade on the deal or have second thought...you cant do much.

The other way of doing it is to hold share cirtificates. They dont identify you by name as a shareholder, but th fact that you have them, you can walk into a bank and collect the dividends just by producing the share cirtificates.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:01:18 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: EV's absolutely right! HE DOES NOT OWN ANY OF THIS
Message:
Yes, Dunn and Bradstreet reports. But those cost money. Last time I heard around $80 a pop for each company that you want to check on.

Now there was a Dunn and Bradstreet report leaked on the forum when we had our discussion about Amtext during the Forum 3 days. We learned that all the shares were held by the officers and directors of the companies. BUT, there was nothing in there that told us they were held as proxies for m himself.

What I'm basically saying here is that we can find out from Dunn and Bradstreet who owns the shares but the question of proxies is another matter. Especially when it comes to private companies (companies that are not being publically traded ).

Anyone have any ideas on this? (Joe??)

PS: J-M, why do you suspect Seva as possibly being non-profit? It's pretty clear to me that it's a profit company. See for yourself.

http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?a1=DETFIL&n1=858329&n2=NAMFWD&n3=0000&n4=N&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=SEVA&r5=

and here

http://www.sunbiz.org/scripts/cordet.exe?a1=DETFIL&n1=614741&n2=NAMFWD&n3=0000&n4=N&r1=&r2=&r3=&r4=SEVA&r5=

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 12:28:42 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joey et al.
Subject: Wanna see the Annual Reports?
Message:
Joey, if you click on 'view document images' on that page, it appears from the next page that you can request the Annual report to be faxed to you.

http://corimg.dos.state.fl.us/cgi-bin/corpwimg.exe?TABLE=COR&DOC=858329.

Anyone out there got a fax machine?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 15:43:18 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Wanna see the Annual Reports?
Message:
Hi cq,

I've seen those annual reports and they really don't have much more info than what you get when you click onto the company's listing at www.sunbiz.org. they're just these one page filings that are made available to the public.

in other words, virtually no financial info, let alone info on who owns shares.

BTW, I thought Eddie's explanation of proxies was pretty solid.
If he's reading this, thanks Eddie.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:18:24 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: It might be possible
Message:
From thw sunbiz.org FAQ page:

15. How can I get photocopies of documents that are not imaged and available on the Internet? What is the cost?

Photocopies of documents that are not imaged and not available from the Internet are available from the Division of Corporations at $1.00 a page. Make your check payable to Department of State. The address is:
Department of State Division of Corporations
P.O. Box 6327
Tallahassee, FL 32314
Give detailed information (include the document number if known) with your request.

Their email address is corphelp@mail.dos.state.fl.us

How can we find out how many pages were filed? I would think the annual reports (at least in some cases) in their entirety were filed, but not imaged.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:52:38 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: It might be possible
Message:
My reading of that G, is that they mean where Docs aren't available *at all* on their site.
But where docs do appear, they're only the one page filing and that's all you get by mailing in your request at the address and in the manner you outlined in your post.
If they're a publically trade company, you can get their financial info, by rquesting their annual report on the pretext lets say, that you're a potential investor.
For a private company, you'd have to go to Dunn and Bradstreet or some other reporting company to get any financial info on them. That, or sue them, in which case you could request them to open their books in court.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index