Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Sat, Aug 12, 2000 at 14:50:55 (GMT)
From: Aug 02, 2000 To: Aug 10, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Jean-Michel -:- Exactly what was needed for the final touch -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 08:50:17 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Seva in India and Nepal -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:25:00 (GMT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Seva in India and Nepal -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 18:41:59 (GMT)
__ __ PCH -:- pretty transparent -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 18:24:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- pretty transparent NOT -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 20:38:37 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- correction re:Seva in India and Nepal -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 18:17:11 (GMT)
__ G -:- Reigate, Serenity -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:15:24 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- To G re ownership of yachts, Seva, +UK connections -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 20:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- And what about the 'Wadi Sue' ? Still owned by m? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 09:24:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- And what about the 'Wadi Sue' ? Oh G eeeee?? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:16:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G eeeee -:- didn't find 'Wadi Sue' -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:00:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- My estimate for Serenity: 7,000,000 (US) -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:08:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- My estimate for Serenity: 7,000,000 (US) -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:33:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- BAM (BusinessAroundM) page updated. Joey? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 09:01:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- BAM (BusinessAroundM) page updated. J-M? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:27:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- ownership of yachts, Seva, Commex -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 21:21:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Commex -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 21:47:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- Commex -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 04:47:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Commex -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 06:56:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Commex (UK) Limited ? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 15:53:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Commex (UK) Limited ? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:08:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Commex (UK) Limited ? -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:11:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- OK G, thanks again for your research on Commex (nt -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:35:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- another Commex -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:43:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- another Commex -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 08:34:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- another Commex -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 06:27:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- More on Commex Enterprises Inc -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 17:11:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- More on Commex Enterprises Inc -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:13:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- More on Commex Enterprises Inc -:- Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 01:48:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ la-ex -:- To G re ownership of yachts, Seva, +UK connections -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 20:41:21 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- UK web sites -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:19:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Land Registry for England and Wales -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 19:49:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- Any of these UK companies related? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:25:46 (GMT)
__ tax man -:- Exactly what was needed for the final touch -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:55:32 (GMT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Who said there is ANYTHING illegal in all this? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 15:00:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joe -:- Illegal vs. Misrepresentation -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:50:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Illegal vs. Misrepresentation -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 04:19:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Elan Vital as a Church -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:58:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Elan Vital as a Church -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 03:56:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ tax man -:- Who said there is ANYTHING illegal in all this? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 15:39:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Who said there is ANYTHING illegal in all this? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:00:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- WHAT???????? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:04:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- This is no joke -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:30:26 (GMT)

buzz -:- to way -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:22:16 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Kriya again -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:03:55 (GMT)
__ __ buzz -:- Kriya again -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:13:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- on seeking higher consciousness -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:50:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Lurkex -:- Up, Up, infinitely up! -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:31:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Up, Up, infinitely up! -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 12:05:38 (GMT)

thinking man's ex -:- anyone know danny blood-he could say a lot..... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:58:14 (GMT)

G -:- Prem Rawat's (Maharaji's) aircrafts -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:30:25 (GMT)
__ G -:- Prem Rawat's (Maharaji's) aircrafts - take 2 -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:37:44 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Environmental Irresponsbility -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:53:59 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- Prem Rawat's (Maharaji's) aircrafts (cont'd) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:39:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ G -:- more on the Stemme S10-VT -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:49:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Great stuff on the aircraft, G ,and now.... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:24:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ popeye -:- here's a liitle info on yachts... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 03:12:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ jondon -:- here's a liitle info on yachts... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:33:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- Premo Marine Inc. -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:10:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- 106 foot yacht - Serenity -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:41:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- 106 foot yacht - Serenity -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:19:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ popeye -:- Premo Marine Inc. -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:17:09 (GMT)

Carol -:- Free feels good -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 20:00:48 (GMT)
__ De Pro Gram Anand JI -:- Free feels good -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 05:04:18 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- Free feels good -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 09:46:00 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Apples and oranges, Carol -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:18:55 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- banana splitz, Jim -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 18:46:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Time to put on your thinking cap, Chris -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:14:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- I can respect a difference of opinion, Jim ... -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:54:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Put the Dunce's cap on Jim! -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:31:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, Stonor, I get my ideas from the radio -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:56:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- OK Jim, you win. You're repugnant at times. -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:31:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Another dumb-ass cliche -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:16:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- But your personality is far more repugnant to me.. -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 19:24:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Carol -:- To Jim: This was so funny... just saw re-run -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 01:53:27 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- Apples and oranges, Carol -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:27:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Do you get to wear funny hats? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:00:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ Already? -:- Don't start! -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 12:11:58 (GMT)
__ Lurkex -:- Welcome back -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:54:47 (GMT)
__ __ gregg -:- Welcome back, Carol -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:38:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ Stonor -:- Well said, Gregg!! Thanks! -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:33:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- hi Gregg (ot) -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:43:45 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Free feels good -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:43:05 (GMT)
__ __ Carol -:- Bi-Polar Hahahaha -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:08:29 (GMT)
__ __ Dr. Frasier Crane -:- Bi Polar = Manic Depressive -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:57:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ Carol -:- Bi Polar = Manic Depressive -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:20:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- Bi Polar = Manic Depressive = more alive than most -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 19:22:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Bi Polar = Manic Depressive -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:41:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's pathetic, Chris -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:26:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- That's pathetic, Chris -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:39:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- You can be pathetic, Jim . . . -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 06:13:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Lotus Eater -:- There is nothing more bi polar than a premie -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:34:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- There is nothing more bi polar than a premie -:- Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:36:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Good point LE...nicely stated (nt) -:- Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:39:11 (GMT)

ET -:- What Happened in Boston? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:13:51 (GMT)
__ Salam -:- You should not have left you ship like that ET!! -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:26:27 (GMT)

Lurkex -:- Anyone have Post DECA Traumatic Stress? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:04:46 (GMT)
__ Joe -:- Anyone have Post DECA Traumatic Stress? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 20:08:13 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Working Hazards at DECA..... -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 20:25:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ Lurkex -:- Damn, ... I knew Nancy! -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:50:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Very insightful and I agree -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:19:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Damn, ... I knew Nancy! -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:59:18 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- These industrial crimes must be accounted for -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:54:21 (GMT)
__ deca refugee -:- DECA/environmental crimes -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:39:09 (GMT)
__ __ EPA -:- Do you have any more information on this? -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:36:09 (GMT)
__ __ Zelda -:- 'Going to work for Deca' -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 20:00:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ EddytheTurtle -:- Afer Deca a co was formed and sold off -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 21:49:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Happy -:- Cynthia's post, June 20 -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 15:14:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ deca dropout -:- Cynthia's post, June 20 -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 15:32:27 (GMT)

buzz -:- thanks -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:31:46 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Don't forget to join Ex-Premie AMP (nt) -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:41:35 (GMT)
__ __ Joe -:- Are you the EPPC? -:- Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:58:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- No, I'm the Regional WWA Officer (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:10:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- The proliferation of 'coordinators'..... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:27:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- Hey Joe,ease up a bit, will ya?I too was a..... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:20:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Hey Joe,ease up a bit, will ya?I too was a..... -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:05:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Joe Whalen -- joke spoiler! (nt) -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:06:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ la-ex -:- OK Joe..apology accepted...the healing has begun.. -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:53:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ...the healing has begun...? tell it to the ozone -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 19:35:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hone Oat Bar Maker -:- Scandal: We gobbed into the ingredients -:- Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:55:17 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 08:50:17 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Exactly what was needed for the final touch
Message:
on that new page on Ex-Premie.org

Who Owns What around Prem Rawat ....

Next sections will be the 'Swiss Cottage' (residence in Reigate, and 'Serenity' I guess !!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:25:00 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Seva in India and Nepal
Message:
Thanks for outting this page together and neatly recapping all the info re: the ownership of m's real estate, aircraft and marine craft soon to follow I guess.

In the meantime, I'd like to point out that there's likely a 'Seva' in India and Nepal as well. I say this on the following basis.
Included in the documents, I recently received from Revenue Canada, EV Can has to rationalize the money it sends outside the country- all of it going to the EVF-Switzerland. It does so with a list of all of m's events and meetings (attatchment 4-A, 'Elan Vital Foundation Events' ) Whether m met with 2 people in a planning session, or spoke at an event in India where they declare an attendance of 50,000 people...it's all there. For now, I'd like to point out the following, going back to 1996.

Date------ Location------------------- Event Descriptipon--------------Attendance
31-10-96 New Delhi,India------Seva Personnel Darshan,-------------- 3230
04-04-97 New Delhi,India------Seva Personnel Darshan,---------------1914
07-04-97 New Delhi,India------Seva Personnel Darshan----------------1493
09-04-97 New Delhi,India------Seva Personnel Darshan-----------------764
09-11-97 Katmandu, Nepal------Seva Personnel Meeting-----------------743
09-11-97 Katmandu, Nepal------Seva Personnel Darshan-----------------753
13-11-98 Katmandu, Nepal------Seva Personnel Darshan-----------------450

No 'Seva Personnel Darshans' in the 1999 list, but I suspect they still happenned, just classified diferently under another event description

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 18:41:59 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Seva in India and Nepal
Message:
I read that as the SEVA personell (US based) who don't believe in all these Inian trappings - go to India to get darshan. So the teacher still practices different flavors of behavior in different regions - interesting.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 18:24:57 (GMT)
From: PCH
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: pretty transparent
Message:
will you admit that you just had to ASK revenue Canada for this income tax report?
no sleuthing, mole, spying, secret informant involved ? and i guess that this report is pretty bland and upfront, if you have not made any headlines with it yet...by the way, the Foundation is also mentionned in the EV web site (no sleuthing there either...)
you must feel very disappointed...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 20:38:37 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: PCH
Subject: pretty transparent NOT
Message:
will you admit that you just had to ASK revenue Canada for this income tax report?

I don't have to admit anything here. I'm not being investigated here... m's organization is.

and i guess that this report is pretty bland and upfront...

Not so, I find the report very revealing. This isn't EV speaking to premies or to the public, but for the first time we have documents in which an EV national org profiles its activities and financial affairs to the government of its country. As such when we all get a chance to look at it in its entirety, it'll make it alot more difficult for the cult to feed us misinformation on this page.

you must feel very disappointed...

wrong again, I find the documents very revealing and I'm really excited.

And the fact that you're so eager to diminish its significance, makes me even more excited :)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 18:17:11 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: J-M
Subject: correction re:Seva in India and Nepal
Message:
'Thanks for outting this page together...'

should read:

'Thanks for getting this page together...'

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:15:24 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Reigate, Serenity
Message:
For Serenity, see below re 106 foot yacht.

Regarding Reigate, does anyone know the address?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 20:22:26 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: To G re ownership of yachts, Seva, +UK connections
Message:
Again G, great work on getting all the info.

1)Re:the yacht, it's pretty clear that Premo Marine is the successor to Seva Marine. Seva Marine dissolved with their last filing on 4/18/97. In the meantime one day earlier Premo Marine had been set up to take its place.

My question is this. Do we know if m owned any yachts previous to Serenity under Seva Marine, or was Seva Marine just used to accumulate the capital with which Serenity was purchased by Premo Marine?

2)Re Seva: if you noticed my post above, is there any way you can track down whether there's a Seva in that part of world and confirm what real estate they own?

3)I can't really confirm the companies that you found in the UK as to whether or not they're connected to m's empire, but here's a lead for you that I might be able to help you on and maybe J-M as well. Again from wwww.sunbiz.org.
****************************

Florida Profit

COMMEX ENTERPRISES INC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD
SUITE 200
MIAMI FL 33181 US
Changed 04/13/1998

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAILING ADDRESS
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD
SUITE 200
MIAMI FL 33181 US
Changed 05/08/2000

Document Number
S14284 FEI Number
650232015 Date Filed
11/26/1990
State
FL Status
ACTIVE Effective Date
NONE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Registered Agent
Name & Address
PAULA C. BLANCHE
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD
SUITE 200
MIAMI FL 33181
Name Changed: 05/01/1996
Address Changed: 05/01/1996


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer/Director Detail Name & Address Title
NATHAN, CHARLES B.
JACOBS, ROBERT A
RILEY, ROBERT A
BLANCHE, PAULA C
MURRAY, LYNWOOD C

Thanks for all your help. It's really much appreciated.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 09:24:44 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: And what about the 'Wadi Sue' ? Still owned by m?
Message:
or was it that previous yacht owned by Seva Marine ?

Any mean to know the yacht's value? Maybe from insurance database?

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:16:26 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: And what about the 'Wadi Sue' ? Oh G eeeee??
Message:
That's right. I thought he had a yacht before Serenity. But they certainly can't be the same. Serenity was built in 97, christened with another name which was changed by m to Serenity
when he purchased it in April of that year.

I can't think of another owner for the 'Wadi Sue' other than than Seva Marine. But maybe, now that we know the name 'Wadi Sue,' G can track it down for all of us and give us the documentary proof.

Any way to know the yacht's value? Maybe from insurance database?

Now that's an interesting idea. Oh G eeeeeeee ?? :)
Please, pretty please ?
You've been great !

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:00:50 (GMT)
From: G eeeee
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: didn't find 'Wadi Sue'
Message:
I tried a search on vessels with a name beginning with Wad, I didn't find anything for 'Wadi Sue' or anything close. It could have be sold, registered in another name, renamed, or something else.
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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:08:38 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: My estimate for Serenity: 7,000,000 (US)
Message:
From the info on Serenity:

Place Built: WESTPORT WA
Shipyard: WESTPORT SHIPYARD INC

The previous name was Westship One (through June 30, 1997).

Westship is Westport’s Florida-based dealer.

Length (ft.): 106 (32.3 m)
Gross Tonnage: 216
Net Tonnage: 172
Hull Depth (ft.): 13.4
Hull Breadth (ft.): 22.7

More info:

At the Crown Ltd.'s (yacht chairs, stools, & table pedestals) Sample Register of Past Yacht Projects web page, they mention the 'Westship One' as being a 108' Westship. So 'Serenity' might actually be 108' long. They list a 'Fantasea' and a 'Primadonna' as both being 106' Westships, so the Primadonna and Fantasy VII models might be 106'. From their home page:


Since 1981, CROWN LTD has been the world leader in the design and fabrication of helm chairs, stools, tabletops, and pedestals for the megayacht industry. Our products are the perfect blend of handcrafted quality, beautiful styling, and luxurious comfort. Our service is the very finest.

Westport Shipyard, Inc.
1807 Nyhus Street
Westport, Washington 98595
(360) 268-1800

Westport Shipyard web site

They list a few models of luxury yachts that they make:
Westport 130 (130')
Westport 112 (112')
Primadonna
Rainmaker
Fantasy VII
Golden Delicious (98')
Northstream

From the description of the Wesport 112 (112'):
'In the past, Westport has been closely associated with the vessels we have built for Westship, Inc.'

Westship Yacht Sales
Fort Lauderdale FL
954-463-0700

Westship Yacht Sales web site

Here's info on a 108' Westship Raised Pilotship named 'Amazing Grace'

Cost: $6,995,000 (US)

Contact Westship Yacht Sales, Inc..
1535 SE 17th Street
Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33316, USA
Tel (954) 462-5523
Fax (954) 462-3869
Email inquire@westshipyachts.com

Westport Yacht Sales, Inc.
Rusty Preston
2957 State Road 84
Fort Lauderdale, Fl. 33312
Phone 954-316-6364
Fax 954-316-6365

Westport Yacht Sales web site
Westport Yacht Sales
Westport Yacht Sales - Brokerage
Westport Yacht Sales - Wesport 112 description

The Brokerage page references a 105' Westport 2000 model, here is a picture:
105' Westport 2000

------------------------

Veerrry nice maya there, eh?
What did Kabir say about the treasures of trash?
What did Prem Rawat write? 'Save me from this material world.'?
Sure.

I suppose next he'll want a 132' yacht and a Gulfstream V. He's probably pissed that he doesn't already have them.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:33:30 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: My estimate for Serenity: 7,000,000 (US)
Message:
Gee whiz G, nice job on the estimate. Well done.
A top notch job in providing a thorough basis, (as thorough as can be done over the net) for the conclusion you arrived at.
Definitely makes sense.
Thanks again, and thanks too for trying on 'Wadi Sue.'
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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 09:01:59 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: BAM (BusinessAroundM) page updated. Joey?
Message:
Please check that new section on 'Serenity' ......

Is there anything I missed ?

What about another section on BAM?

I wouldn't see any defamation there. Just a few questions. Like listing all the businesses active and inactive located at that famous Biscayne Blvd address in Miami, and ask a few questions .....

Is there anything illegal in doing this ?

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:27:00 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: BAM (BusinessAroundM) page updated. J-M?
Message:
You're right.

I don't see anything in the way of defamation, nor do I see anything illegal.

Let me take a closer look at what's on the site, and I'll email you over the weekend.

BTW, the 'Who Owns What Around M' is amazing. Really well done, laid out, everything !!

Love it!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 21:21:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: ownership of yachts, Seva, Commex
Message:

Do we know if m owned any yachts previous to Serenity under Seva Marine, or was Seva Marine just used to accumulate the capital with which Serenity was purchased by Premo Marine?

I don't know.

...is there any way you can track down whether there's a Seva in thatpart of world and confirm what real estate they own?

I don't know.

... from ... wwww.sunbiz.org ... COMMEX ENTERPRISES INC.

Commex shows the same address (and maybe suite #?) as Amtext and also some or all of the same officers. I think I have some more info on Commex.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 21:47:09 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Commex
Message:
... from ... wwww.sunbiz.org ... COMMEX ENTERPRISES INC.
Commex shows the same address (and maybe suite #?) as Amtext and also some or all of the same officers.

Exactly G. I'd be interested in knowing whatever other info you can provide, and if Commex shows up in the UK.

Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 04:47:41 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Commex
Message:
From the same web site, here is the rest of the detail on Commex:
I downloaded the annual report images, they turn out just to be the one page filing form. However, I believe the annual reports can be obtained, although I don't think it's a priority. It is afterall a profit corporation.

Name & Address / Title
NATHAN, CHARLES B.
5005 COLLINS AVE #521, MIAMI BEACH FL, DVP
JACOBS, ROBERT A
1 CHASE MANHATTAN PLAZA, NEW YORK NY, D
RILEY, ROBERT A
11900 BISCAYNE STE 200, MIAMI FL, P
BLANCHE, PAULA C
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD #200, MIAMI FL, T
MURRAY, LYNWOOD C
7870 NW 62ND ST, MIAMI FL, S

Annual Reports

Report Year, Filed Date, Intangible Tax
1998, 04/13/1998, Y
1999, 05/07/1999
2000, 05/08/2000

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 06:56:40 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Commex
Message:
G, I already had that.
I'm aware of those one page filings that you downloaded, but they don't really contain much info.
Anything on Commex in the UK ?
Thanks again.
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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 15:53:44 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Commex (UK) Limited ?
Message:
Click on Companies House and search on Commex, you see the following company names:

COMMEXCHANGE LIMITED
COMMEX DIRECT LIMITED
COMMEX FOODS LTD
COMMEX IMPORTS LIMITED
COMMEX INTERNATIONAL LIMITED
COMMEX IT LIMITED
COMMEX NATURA LIMITED
COMMEX (UK) LIMITED

Of these, COMMEX (UK) LIMITED is the most likely candidate for a possibly related company.

Name & Registered Office:
COMMEX (UK) LIMITED
147 RISLEY AVENUE
LONDON
N17 7HP

Company No.: 03967366
Date of Incorporation: 07/04/2000
Country of Origin: United Kingdom

Company Type: Private Limited Company
Nature Of Business (SIC(92)): None Registered

Accounting Reference Date: 30/04
Last Accounts Made Up To:
Next Accounts Due: 07/02/2002
Last Return Made Up To:
Next Return Due: 05/05/2001

Previous Names: No previous name information recorded over the last 20 years.
Branch Details: There are no branches associated with this company.
Oversea Company Information: There are no Oversea Details associated with this company

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 18:08:56 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Commex (UK) Limited ?
Message:
G,

Thanks again for your help. You've done amazing stuff for us here.

I'm just curious as to why you say this.

Of these, COMMEX (UK) LIMITED is the most likely candidate for a possibly related company.

I went over to the directory and I found COMMEX INTERNATIONAL to be an interesting possibility as well.

Just wondering.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:11:48 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Commex (UK) Limited ?
Message:
Yes, COMMEX INTERNATIONAL is also interesting possibility. I said that Commex (UK) Limited is the most likely because of a pattern I've seen before, the same company name with the location in parentheses.
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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:35:54 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: OK G, thanks again for your research on Commex (nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:43:43 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: another Commex
Message:
Here's another Commex, probably not related:

Charities & Voluntary Organisations
Commex
0191-477 3800
205b Coatsworth Rd
Gateshead, Tyne & Wear NE81SR

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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 08:34:47 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: another Commex
Message:
G,

I doubt this Commex is what we're looking for. I have a very good idea BTW, of the kind of work Commex in the U.S. does, and it wouldn't be 'chariable,' that's for sure.

Also, IMO, none of your help this past week should be considered a waste of time. Anyone who suggests otherwise...well quite frankly, I feel THEY may be a waste of time.
I believe that your assistance has been invaluable in putting the pieces of the puzzle together, and I'm certain many people here feel the same way.
Again, thank you so very much.

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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 06:27:45 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: G
Subject: another Commex
Message:
G, I think this might be a waste of your valuable time. I did the same thing, there's tons of commex's out there, 99% of which are just regular companies. I doubt this premie one does anything other than shuffle papers around. Maybe one of the miami local ex's can go offer to do 'service' there (assuming that address is a real office, not just a mail drop-box) and see what they do. Anyone know any of those people listed?I sure don't.
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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 17:11:09 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: More on Commex Enterprises Inc
Message:
Yes, it could be a waste of time, especially the other Commexs. Here is more info on how Amtext and Commex Enterprises relate:

Commex has the same principal address and mailing address as Amtext (11900 Biscayne Blvd. Ste 200, Miami FL 33181). My guess is that it's a small office where Amtext paperwork is done.

The following are the names and titles of officers of Commex.
Some are officers of Amtext, their Amtext titles are shown in parentheses.

Nathan, Charles B. - DVP (CD)
Jacobs, Robert A - D (DAS)
Riley, Robert A - P
Blanche, Paula C - RA,T (PT,RA)
Murray, Lynwood C - S

P - President
V - Vice President
S - Secretary
T - Treasurer or Trustee
C - Chairman, Cashier, or Controller/Comptroller
D - Director
A - Administrator, or Attorney
RA - Registered Agent

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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 18:13:05 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: More on Commex Enterprises Inc
Message:
G,

No doubt the Commex in Miami is related to Amtext. In fact and in law, it's a seperate company spawned by Amtext to handle a certain part of its business.

In effect though, sharing the same office, personnel and of course for the most part the same officers and directors, in reality, its day to day operations are so highly integrated with Amtext- that in effect, it could be a considered almost as a division of Amtext.

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Date: Sun, Aug 06, 2000 at 01:48:11 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: More on Commex Enterprises Inc
Message:
Also Joey, see my post higher up 'Too much service can be bad for you' (in a thread begun by J-M) where I clipped something from the IRS EO manual regarding the relationship between tax-exempt organisations and other companies controlled or staffed by the same people. I need to delve further into this, but all this groundwork by you, G and others will be invaluable at a future date.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 20:41:21 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: To G re ownership of yachts, Seva, +UK connections
Message:
Joey-any idea what COMMEX does, as a business?
I heard that chuck and the boys are up to some sort of book-related business start up in miami...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:19:30 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: G
Subject: UK web sites
Message:
Here is some links to UK web sites:

open.gov.uk

open.gov.uk - topic index: public records

Public Record Office

Records Management

Access to Public Records manual

Finding Aids

Easy Search

Tracing Living People

Companies House

Companies House - Free Information
click on Company Names & Address Index with Basic Company Information

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 19:49:02 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Land Registry for England and Wales
Message:
Here are links to the Land Registry:

Land Registry Direct
This allows you to do on-line searches and data retrieval. There are fees involved.

Welcome to the HM Land Registry

What is the Land Registry?
Selecting 'Who owns that property?' and clicking 'GO' will take you to a web page that explains how to find out (by post) who owns a property. (costs 4 pounds)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 17:25:46 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Any of these UK companies related?
Message:
I'm wondering if any of the following UK companies are related to Prem Rawat:

Elan Limited, Execucorp (UK) Limited, Seva Limited, Premo Limited, Prem Services Limited, Prentice-Hall International (UK) Limited

Name & Registered Office:
ELAN LIMITED
OAKLEA 147 SIDNEY ROAD
WALTON ON THAMES
SURREY KT12 3SA
Status : Active

Company No. : 02150188
Date of Incorporation : 24/07/1987
Country of Origin : United Kingdom

Company Type : Private Limited Company
Nature Of Business (SIC(92)) :
8531 - social work with accommodation

Accounting Reference Date : 31/08
Last Accounts Made Up To : 31/08/1999 (SMALL)
Next Accounts Due : 30/06/2001
Last Return Made Up To : 31/12/1999
Next Return Due : 28/01/2001

Last Members List : 31/12/1999

Previous Names No previous name information recorded over the last 20 years.
Branch Details There are no branches associated with this company.
Oversea Company Information There are no Oversea Details associated with this company

Name & Registered Office:
EXECUCORP (U.K.) LIMITED
JAYBEE HOUSE
155-157A CLAPHAM HIGH STREET
LONDON
SW4 7SY
Status : Active

Company No. : 02774725
Date of Incorporation : 17/12/1992
Country of Origin : United Kingdom

Company Type : Private Limited Company
Nature Of Business (SIC(92)) :
7032 - manage real estate, fee or contract

Accounting Reference Date : 31/12
Last Accounts Made Up To : 31/12/1999 (FULL)
Next Accounts Due : 31/10/2001
Last Return Made Up To : 17/12/1999
Next Return Due : 14/01/2001

Last Members List : 17/12/1999

Previous Names No previous name information recorded over the last 20 years.
Branch Details There are no branches associated with this company.
Oversea Company Information There are no Oversea Details associated with this company

Name & Registered Office:
SEVA LIMITED
66 CHURCHWAY
LONDON
NW1 1LT
Status : Liquidation

Company No. : 03058281
Date of Incorporation : 18/05/1995
Country of Origin : United Kingdom

Number of Cases : 1
To obtain details of the practitioner click on the appropriate case type description.
Case Number : 1 (of 1 cases)
Case Type : VOL. LIQUIDATION CREDITORS
Wind Up Resolution Date : 02/05/1996
Appoint Practitioner : 02/05/1996

Company Type : Private Limited Company
Nature Of Business (SIC(92)) :
None Registered

Accounting Reference Date : 31/05
Last Accounts Made Up To :
Next Accounts Due : 18/03/1997 OVERDUE
Last Return Made Up To :
Next Return Due : 15/06/1996 OVERDUE

Previous Names No previous name information recorded over the last 20 years.
Branch Details There are no branches associated with this company.
Oversea Company Information There are no Oversea Details associated with this company

Name & Registered Office:
PREMO LIMITED
24 HOLLOWAY
BATH
AVON
BA2 4PU
Status : Active

Company No. : 02796880
Date of Incorporation : 08/03/1993
Country of Origin : United Kingdom

Company Type : Private Limited Company
Nature Of Business (SIC(92)) :
7220 - software consultancy & supply

Accounting Reference Date : 31/03
Last Accounts Made Up To : 31/03/1999 (SMALL)
Next Accounts Due : 31/01/2001
Last Return Made Up To : 08/03/2000
Next Return Due : 05/04/2001

Last Members List : 08/03/2000

Previous Names No previous name information recorded over the last 20 years.
Branch Details There are no branches associated with this company.
Oversea Company Information There are no Oversea Details associated with this company

Name & Registered Office:
PREM SERVICES LIMITED
ATHENE HOUSE THE BROADWAY
LONDON
NW7 3TB
Status : Active

Company No. : 03536804
Date of Incorporation : 30/03/1998
Country of Origin : United Kingdom

Company Type : Private Limited Company
Nature Of Business (SIC(92)) :
7484 - other business activities

Accounting Reference Date : 31/12
Last Accounts Made Up To : 31/12/1999 (SMALL)
Next Accounts Due : 31/10/2001
Last Return Made Up To : 30/03/1999
Next Return Due : 27/04/2000 OVERDUE

Last Members List : 30/03/1999

Previous Names No previous name information recorded over the last 20 years.
Branch Details There are no branches associated with this company.
Oversea Company Information There are no Oversea Details associated with this company

Name & Registered Office:
PRENTICE-HALL INTERNATIONAL (UK) LIMITED
CAMPUS 400
MAYLANDS AVE,HEMEL HEMPSTEAD
HERTS
HP2 7EZ
Status : Dissolved Dissolved 10/08/1999

Company No. : 01867933
Date of Incorporation : 30/11/1984
Country of Origin : United Kingdom

Company Type : Private Limited Company
Nature Of Business (SIC(92)) :
7499 - non-trading company

Accounting Reference Date : 30/06
Last Accounts Made Up To : 30/06/1998 (DORMANT)
Next Accounts Due : 30/04/2000 OVERDUE
Last Return Made Up To : 31/10/1998
Next Return Due : 28/11/1999 OVERDUE

Last Members List : 31/10/1998
Fiche weeded on : 25/03/1998

Previous Names No previous name information recorded over the last 20 years.
Branch Details There are no branches associated with this company.
Oversea Company Information There are no Oversea Details associated with this company

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:55:32 (GMT)
From: tax man
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Exactly what was needed for the final touch
Message:
JM-once again, excellent work!
Just wondering, do you think that certain australian travel and tourism authorities would like to know about the EPO site, so that they might understand some of mr. rawat's business dealings, and just who the man says he is....
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 15:00:49 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: tax man
Subject: Who said there is ANYTHING illegal in all this?
Message:
It's very likely that EV's using shell corporations to manage all these expensive items .... and avoid having all this in its books!!

Could be very legal in the US!!!

But there is no reason not to check, just in case, you know .....

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:50:27 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Illegal vs. Misrepresentation
Message:
I doubt there is anything 'illegal' about all the shell corporations that own Maharaji's expensive toys/residences, etc. But what is obvious is the misleading stuff Elan Vital publishes.

G has posted a lot of good information that, for example, Maharaji's Gulfstream jet is owned by a corporation that is made up of premies which appears to do nothing more that provide Maharaji access to the plane. How does this square with Elan Vital's statement that Maharaji's plane is 'leased from a private company.' Well maybe that is technically true, but it sure misrepresents the whole truth.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 04:19:48 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Illegal vs. Misrepresentation
Message:
Joe,

In which category would you put the Elan Vital (US) Tax-exemption application, in which they claim to be a Church? Hopefully you had a chance to read all the IRS stuff I posted re this subject. IMO they haven't a leg to stand on when it comes to avoiding filing Form 990 and other information. I would hazard that once brought to light, the EV Canada info would seem quite trivial.

Do you think this would make a good starting point to get the IRS's attention?

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:58:03 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Elan Vital as a Church
Message:
I'm not a tax lawyer, so this is just conjecture, but from what I understand, there is a pretty lax criteria with the IRS as to what kind of organization gets to be a 'church' for filing purposes. If you look at it objectively, I would say, yes, Elan Vital IS a church in the sense that they talk about spirituality, finding peace inside, (still) have lots of Hindu practices, etc. We know it's a cult, but to the IRS it just looks like an odd religion. And if anyone from the IRS went to an Elan Vital 'event' it would be pretty similar to a Christian Revival, except the person being worshipped isn't a disembodied Jesus Christ, but Prem Pal Singh Rawat, a 'master' embodied in corpulent form.

But, the fact that EV DID seek and get an exemption based on church status is VERY revealing, and flies in the face with what EV is saying it is, or rather isn't. Plus the application for excemption, which I understand EV has to, by law, make available for review by the public, would be REALLY interesting, because it would essentially be Elan Vital arguing that it IS a church. Again, this would show the hypocrisy and lies that Elan Vital and Maharaji are spreading, that they are not a cult or religion.

So, I hope somebody makes that request to Elan Vital to make the application available, or asks the IRS to do so, and keeps the IRS informed on how Elan Vital responds.

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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 03:56:37 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Elan Vital as a Church
Message:
Hate to disagree with you Joe, but after about 5 hours reading through IRS Exempt Organisation Manuals, I came to the opposite conclusion, ie that they wouldn't be viewed as a Church. You see, Elan Vital doesn't actually teach or preach ANYTHING! It merely 'supports' this private individual, Prem Pal Singh Rawat, in HIS teachings. They do not hold regular 'services', teach a doctrine, carry out religious instruction of the young, ordain ministers, have a congregation or membership, require followers to forsake other religions and the real kicker, is not considered by its (non-existant) membership to be a church.

All these points and more, I took from case studies of Court precedents by the IRS in which various organisations were deemed NOT to be churches.

Still, its not up to us, is it Joe? Maybe we should ask a higher authority:). I'd ask someone like Marianne (a lawyer, so not intimidated by Govt Officials I imagine) to make the call, but I don't think she likes me so I don't know if she reads my posts even.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 15:39:42 (GMT)
From: tax man
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Who said there is ANYTHING illegal in all this?
Message:
JM-what I was thinking was not exactly the legality of any of these dealings.they probably are...
What I was thinking is this: Do travel/tourism officials really want to be recommending a conference center to groups, if that center has ties to a well known cult?
I think if they knew more about mr. rawat, they might not want to be involved in recommending his site to anyone...

Kind of like in the US...when people realize something is owned by Rev. Moon, they tend to not trust it, or not want to be involved with it....

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:00:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: tax man
Subject: Who said there is ANYTHING illegal in all this?
Message:
a bit like the links between McDonald's and $cientology .....
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:04:56 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: WHAT????????
Message:
How about the links between Air France and the Moonies?

What re you talking about, JM?

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:30:26 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: This is no joke
Message:
tap into some cult newsgroup and perform a search on this issue ......
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:22:16 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: to way
Message:
hi way
did you see the post on kriya.if you want more info let me know
regards
buzz
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:03:55 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Kriya again
Message:
buzz,

The idea of Kriya yoga without worshipping a human teacher is a step forward. Perhaps that Kriya swami in England is ok, but I distrust all renunciates.

Donald Walters (Swami Kriyananda) did leave the SRF due in part to sexual rumors, back in the fifties or sixties; but the scandal I was referring to is the trial and conviction he underwent in the late 90's. He was convicted, fined a million dollars, resigned, left Ananda, and moved to Italy. Everything about the scandal, including depositions from several victims, can be read at the Ananda Awareness website. It's very sordid and underlines the problems that happen when spiritual seekers attempt to renounce a part of their human nature.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:13:36 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Kriya again
Message:
yes i read the case youre refering to,terrible shit really.i'm gonna give this technique a try and thats all.i'll keep you posted if you like?
regards
buzz
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:50:52 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: on seeking higher consciousness
Message:
buzz,

Your comments make me wonder what you are seeking. Not that it is any of my business of course.

I personally have settled on a simple 'technique' of my own, and I am not looking to try out any new methods. Nor am I looking for final liberation, or enlightenment, or a way to become God-conscious. I only seek health of mind, body, and spirit. I humbly quiet myself before the higher power that I see at work in this world, and I hope for grace and love.

I remember the boy guru telling us his Knowledge will take us 'up, up, infinitely up.' That sounded like a pretty good idea at the time, but as I said, I no longer set my sights in that direction.

Anyway, I'm not asking you to justify your life or ambitions in anyway. Please comment only if you care to.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:31:10 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Up, Up, infinitely up!
Message:
Well, that was the whole damn problem, wasn't it? Going up, up, up into the light, ascending beyond all that is DOWN here. Personally I've been busy getting down in all kinds of ways, descending instead of ascending, feeling my body and feelings and, amazingly, I get high, if you know what I mean?!
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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 12:05:38 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Up, Up, infinitely up!
Message:
There was always something decidedly unhealthy about the kind of pressure to get high, or at least appear to be 'high', around premies and the Maha.

M's whole trip seems to involve a denial of our 'shadow', as the Jungians call it.

There's NOTHING holistic about having your head in the clouds all the time.

And the constant coercion to get in touch with 'that place' might profit the Maha, but I'm damn sure there's a lot of premies out there who are seriously screwing up their psyches as a result.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:58:14 (GMT)
From: thinking man's ex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: anyone know danny blood-he could say a lot.....
Message:
Does anyone know or remember danny blood?
I don't, but have been told by reliable sources that he used to be m's 'right hand man' for years.
He's definitely an ex now,and supposedly lives near Baltimore, MD, with wife and kids.
He told a friend of mine a lot about m's drunken binges,hash smoking,and general debauchery....
He said that m told him to treat m as a friend, not a devotee...it seemed that m needed a pal to party with...
He couldn't take it after a number of years and split...he had a LOT to say...
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:30:25 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Prem Rawat's (Maharaji's) aircrafts
Message:
Details on aircraft owned by Prem Pal Singh Rawat (aka 'Maharaji'):

Gulfstream IV:

The Gulfstream IV is owned by Prem Rawat's Prime Resources LLC. For a general description, see Gulfstream IV-SP. I don't know if his is a SP or not. It has been significantly improved since he bought it. I remember fundraisers for buying it and for improving it.

Aircraft owned by Prem Rawat's Seva Corporation:

Information Current: through 05-31-2000
Last Updated: 06-20-2000

1.
Manufacturer Serial Num.: 1660203
Registration Mark(N-Num): N-103PR
Last Registration Activ.: 08-20-1997
Latest Registration Cert: 02-29-1984
Aircraft Manufacturer: BURKHART GROB
Aircraft Model and Ser.:  G 103 TWIN II
Maximum Take-Off Weight:  12,499 POUNDS
Number of Seats:     2
Engine Manufacturer: NONE
Model Name:          NONE
FAA Region of Reg:   WESTERN
Registration Type:   CORPORATION
Aircraft Type: GLIDER
Airworthiness: STANDARD
Engine Type:   NO ENGINE
Name:    SEVA CORP
Address: PO BOX 1437, THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358

I remember a video that showed him showing off this glider.

2.
Manufacturer Serial Num.: 1130872
Registration Mark(N-Num): N-104PR
Last Registration Activ.: 06-07-1999
Latest Registration Cert: 06-07-1999
Aircraft Manufacturer: STEMME GMBH & CO
Aircraft Model and Ser.: S10-VT
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 12,499 POUNDS
Number of Seats: 2
FAA Region of Registrat.: WESTERN
Registration Type: CORPORATION
Aircraft Type: FIXED WING SINGLE ENGINE
Name: SEVA CORP (Delaware)
Address: C/0 EXECUTIVE INTERNATIONAL, THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358

3.
Manufacturer Serial Num.: 1181522
Registration Mark(N-Num): N-10HA
Last Registration Activ.: 07-16-1997
Latest Registration Cert: 12-28-1982
Aircraft Manufacturer: BELL
Aircraft Model and Ser.: 206L
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 12,499 POUNDS
Average Cruising Speed: 112 M.P.H.
Number of Seats: 5
FAA Region of Registrat.: WESTERN
Registration Type: CORPORATION
Aircraft Type: ROTOCRAFT
Airworthiness: STANDARD
Name: SEVA CORPORATION
Address: PO BOX 4029, MALIBU, CA 90264

Aircraft descriptions:
---------------------

BURKHART GROB - G 103 TWIN II:

See Doppelsitziges Leistungssegelflugzeug G 103 Twin II (German)

Rough translation from German:

Doppelsitziges performance glider G 103 twin II

The twin possesses bearing areas and trunk from glass-fiber reinforced plastic. Due to this building method it has a very much better surface quality as the ASK 13 and thus a smaller air resistance. Among its advantages that ranks expressed roomy cockpit and quite good-natured flight characteristics. In the comparison with the ASK 13 it is however also something carriers.

Technical data:
Span: 17.5 m
Length: 8.18 m
Weight (empty): 384 kg
Minimum speed: 66 km/h
Maximum speed: 250 km/h
best lift/drag ratio: 1:37 with 85 km/h
Manufacturer: Burkhart roughly aircraft construction, Mindelheim
Year of construction: 1982

STEMME GMBH & CO - S10-VT:

See The Best Gets Even Better -- The Stemme S10-VT Turbo

BELL - 206L:

See Bell Helicopter - Textron - Bell 206L

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:37:44 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Prem Rawat's (Maharaji's) aircrafts - take 2
Message:
Aircraft Details:

Gulfstream IV:

The Gulfstream IV is owned by Prem Rawat's Prime Resources LLC.
For a description, see Gulfstream IV-SP.
I don't know if his is a SP or not. It has been significantly improved since he bought it. I remember fundraisers for buying it and for improving it.

Aircraft owned by Prem Rawat's Seva Corporation:

Information Current: through 05-31-2000
Last Updated: 06-20-2000

1.
Manufacturer Serial Num.: 1660203
Registration Mark(N-Num): N-103PR
Last Registration Activ.: 08-20-1997
Latest Registration Cert: 02-29-1984
Aircraft Manufacturer: BURKHART GROB
Aircraft Model and Ser.:  G 103 TWIN II
Maximum Take-Off Weight:  12,499 POUNDS
Number of Seats:     2
Engine Manufacturer: NONE
Model Name:          NONE
FAA Region of Reg:   WESTERN
Registration Type:   CORPORATION
Aircraft Type: GLIDER
Airworthiness: STANDARD
Engine Type:   NO ENGINE
Name:    SEVA CORP
Address: PO BOX 1437, THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358

2.
Manufacturer Serial Num.: 1130872
Registration Mark(N-Num): N-104PR
Last Registration Activ.: 06-07-1999
Latest Registration Cert: 06-07-1999
Aircraft Manufacturer: STEMME GMBH & CO
Aircraft Model and Ser.: S10-VT
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 12,499 POUNDS
Number of Seats: 2
FAA Region of Registrat.: WESTERN
Registration Type: CORPORATION
Aircraft Type: FIXED WING SINGLE ENGINE
Name: SEVA CORP (Delaware)
Address: C/0 EXECUTIVE INTERNATIONAL, THOUSAND OAKS, CA 91358

3.
Manufacturer Serial Num.: 1181522
Registration Mark(N-Num): N-10HA
Last Registration Activ.: 07-16-1997
Latest Registration Cert: 12-28-1982
Aircraft Manufacturer: BELL
Aircraft Model and Ser.: 206L
Maximum Take-Off Weight: 12,499 POUNDS
Average Cruising Speed: 112 M.P.H.
Number of Seats: 5
FAA Region of Registrat.: WESTERN
Registration Type: CORPORATION
Aircraft Type: ROTOCRAFT
Airworthiness: STANDARD
Name: SEVA CORPORATION
Address: PO BOX 4029, MALIBU, CA 90264

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:53:59 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Environmental Irresponsbility
Message:
Thanks G, for all the information. If the goal in life is to end up with more toys than anyone else, I think Maharaji has already won.

Well, I was able to tear myself away from the riviting and inspiring Republican National Convention, which is about as interesting as watching paint dry, to ask whether any premies feel there is any environmental problem with one person, taking one big jet to fly around the world, polluting the atmosphere and destroying the ozone layer. I take it Maharaji is not a member of the Green Party and sees no problem there, himself.

By the way, is it just me, or does it appear General Schwatzkoff gets fatter every year?

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:39:40 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Prem Rawat's (Maharaji's) aircrafts (cont'd)
Message:
Aircraft descriptions:

BURKHART GROB - G 103 TWIN II:

See Doppelsitziges Leistungssegelflugzeug G 103 Twin II (German)

Rough translation from German:

Doppelsitziges performance glider G 103 twin II

The twin possesses bearing areas and trunk from glass-fiber reinforced plastic. Due to this building method it has a very much better surface quality as the ASK 13 and thus a smaller air resistance. Among its advantages that ranks expressed roomy cockpit and quite good-natured flight characteristics. In the comparison with the ASK 13 it is however also something carriers.

Technical data:
Span: 17.5 m
Length: 8.18 m
Weight (empty): 384 kg
Minimum speed: 66 km/h
Maximum speed: 250 km/h
best lift/drag ratio: 1:37 with 85 km/h
Manufacturer: Burkhart roughly aircraft construction, Mindelheim
Year of construction: 1982

STEMME GMBH & CO - S10-VT:

See The Best Gets Even Better -- The Stemme S10-VT Turbo

BELL - 206L:

See Bell Helicopter - Textron - Bell 206L

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:49:39 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: more on the Stemme S10-VT
Message:
For more info on the premier turbo-charged S10-VT, see The STEMME S10.

Current price to buy a S10-VT: $175,736 or 175,736 Euro

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:24:18 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Great stuff on the aircraft, G ,and now....
Message:
Do you think you might be able to find out something about m's yacht(s)?

This comes from www.sunbiz.org, the official Florida corporate directory. I'm only assuming by the name of this company which is now inactive, at least in the State of Florida, that it was used as an ownership company for m's yacht(s) or whatever marine toys he has.
****************************************

SEVA MARINE CORPORATION
Foreign Profit

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PRINCIPAL ADDRESS
11900 BISCAYNE BOULEVARD
SUITE 200
MIAMI FL 33181 US
Changed 02/17/1994

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MAILING ADDRESS
P. O. BOX 547037
SURFSIDE FL 33154 US
Changed 04/21/1995

Document Number
P38838 FEI Number
510333973 Date Filed
05/15/1992
State
DE Status
INACTIVE Effective Date
NONE
Last Event
WITHDRAWAL Event Date Filed
12/26/1997 Event Effective Date
NONE


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Registered Agent
Name & Address
EXECUCORP, INC.
11900 BISCAYNE BLVD.
STE. 200
MIAMI FL 33181
Registered Agent Revoked: 12/26/1997


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Officer/Directors
JACOBS, ROBERT A.
HOLLE, MARY E.
BALE, JOHN K
ADLER, WENDY
MARGULIES, ALICIA I


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Annual Reports Report Year Filed Date Intangible Tax
1995 04/21/1995 Y
1996 04/22/1996 Y
1997 04/18/1997 Y

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 03:12:14 (GMT)
From: popeye
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: here's a liitle info on yachts...
Message:
I think John Miller takes care of m's yacht in miami...
I think he took it up to rhode island a couple of years ago,although not sure what for...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 11:33:52 (GMT)
From: jondon
Email: None
To: popeye
Subject: here's a liitle info on yachts...
Message:
Yes it was in RI. I saw it with my premie roommates in Newport. Very exclusive $$$$$$$ sea port in Rhode Island. Reason for being there: maybe just vacationing from all that hard work (right).
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:10:11 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Joey and popeye
Subject: Premo Marine Inc.
Message:
Thanks, just the hints I needed.

See Premo Marine Inc.

See Premo Marine Inc. activity

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:41:07 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: 106 foot yacht - Serenity
Message:
Here's info on the 106 foot yacht named Serenity that is owned by Premo Marine Inc., which in turn is owned by its 'beneficial owners'. Now I wonder who that might be. I can here it now, 'I just happened to be driving along in Washington state near a shipyard, and this delapidated boat that looked like it was ready to sink just happened to catch my eye. I don't know, for some reason I just had to buy it. The grace just flowed and I figured I could just use it to propogate this Knowledge of mine (all mine).'

Clicking on Serenity and searching on Serenity, then finding 'NEWPORT RI' yields the following results:

Vessel Name: SERENITY
Vessel Service: RECREATIONAL
Hull Design: *
Hull Material: FRP
Place Built: WESTPORT WA
Shipyard: WESTPORT SHIPYARD INC
Home Port: NEWPORT RI
Owner:
PREMO MARINE INC
130 Bellevue Avenue
Newport, RI 02840
USCG Doc. No.: 1051618
IMO Number: *
Call Sign: *
Hull Number: *
Year Built: 1997
Length (ft.): 106
Gross Tonnage: 216
Net Tonnage: 172
Hull Depth (ft.): 13.4
Hull Breadth (ft.): 22.7
Horsepower: *
Documentation Status: Currently Documented
Vessel Name History: WESTSHIP ONE
Through: June 30, 1997
No Vessel Owner Changes


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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 06:19:33 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: all
Subject: 106 foot yacht - Serenity
Message:
Here's another link for info on Serenity, there's no new info from the post above, just a different format:

  Serenity

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 05:17:09 (GMT)
From: popeye
Email: None
To: G
Subject: Premo Marine Inc.
Message:
great work, G!
isn't it amazing, how things can happen when we all contribute, even little things like this?
almost feel like service....
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 20:00:48 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: AJW and Everyone
Subject: Free feels good
Message:
Hello, After a lengthy respite from visiting this forum, I am writing this first to AJW in response to the 'There's a little mental parasite on your shoe' (love the subject line!) post on July 28th in the inactive list:

You are funny! I can certainly relate to the feelings you spoke of! That feeling of freedom...buzz, and the lack of guilt! Good stuff, too bad it can't be bottled and sold or given!

I also just got that feeling recently from severing the connection with my psychiatrist that had kept me locked in the 'I'm broken and need fixing' mentality! I had a mini crisis recently which I believe was partly due to the medicines I was on, (so I got off them and ditched her.) During it, I came face to face with an old self who thought she was 'bad' for mistakes she'd made.

I am confident, compassionate (mostly,and often feel inner peace! I am also, supposedly, bi-polar which emerged last winter, at which time I posted heavily here with profusely verbose and grandiose, but truly inspired and sincere, postings.

At that time, I attempted to present myself as free from being an ex-premie, same as from being a premie! Some folks who thought they knew me, or at least counted me permanently in their camp against M, were rather riled up over my treasonous return to a supposed pro-Maharaji camp! This was based on my announcement that I'd watched that 1st Satellite event back in Jan. and found some good in it, and that I'd felt like M was speaking right to me....and it felt good! (I still feel love for the little hamster, sorry can't help it!)

I have been doing private email instead of public posting since then, to friends, both ex's (Hi Selene,Robyn, Michael R., Augustina) and to some premies and other folks.

I haven't gone *back* to anything...just forward and more aware of myself.

I haven't gone to any other 'events' or videos (though I may still get around to doing that sometime) I haven't re-started practicing uncomfortable techniques, or gotten guilty over not doing it! I haven't sent any money to M (although I did make a donation at the Satellite event that time.)

I still believe in G.O.D. and I still love some very special people some of whom are premies and some not. They are just my friends! I still volunteer for a local hospice group for my main service (which gives more to me than I to it...service IS a good thing for your character and self-value and spirit when given lovingly and voluntarily to whatever person or group you value.

I and my family have become involved in the last few months with the Society for creative Anachronism. It is great fun! You get to rename yourself and become a character you make up who 'lives' in a certain time (from about 1300 to 1700)and place. Then you do activities like arts and crafts and fighting, and attend any of frequently held public events dressed 'Period'.
For those of you who like to fight: you can choose heavy or light; rapier or sword or axe. Sometimes there is a War! I plan to fight as an archer some day when I am more practiced. The rules and safety regulations are stringent, the 'weapons' blunted, and while the fighting is physically challenging, it is safe: except for bruises! There are also arts and science competitions and lots of opportunities to demonstrate quick and clever minds and sharp tongues.

One great aspect, to me, of the SCA, is that there is an emphasis on civility and gentility. I often spoke up here to ask that people speak in a manner which is respectful, even though other's ideas may be repugnant to you, or anger you.

Just a word of caution...stay free and be true to yourself and be careful of all labels that anyone would place on you (even you!)

I am feeling a bit cautious entering this Forum, not wanting to grandiose...thinking that everyone should see me and read me here! I don't need that, but I do find that dialogue is a bit too slow for me by personal email at the moment, and also at 'Anything Goes' and at 'Life's Afoot'.

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 05:04:18 (GMT)
From: De Pro Gram Anand JI
Email: shodanwdc
To: Carol
Subject: Free feels good
Message:
I don't blame you for attending that video event and for wanting to stay in touch with your premie friends, you formed bonds with these people and with the group. When there was an event at the Bethesda Hyatt Regency Hotel this past July I felt very tempted to show up to see if I could make contact with any of the people that I knew from the 1970's. I wondered if any of them were still around, I wanted to find out how they were doing. We shared some good times together, we grew close. None of us are to blame for the fact the Maharaj Ji was not the Great and Powerful OZ. It was wishful thinking, perhaps we needed no God, perhaps we only needed each other. Think about it.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 09:46:00 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Free feels good
Message:
Hi Carol,

I was telling people that it's about a year since I left the cult, then I looked at the date on my 'journey' and it turns out to be two years. How time flies. And I don't feel like the 'leaving process' has finished yet.

I'm still gulping down the fresh air outside the cult, and watching bits of my mind come back to life.

That society sounds fun- like you get dressed up as a medieval warrior, smack someone over the head with your axe, make a pot to commemorate the occasion, then nip into the laboratory and convert lead into gold.

Take care, and careful with that axe

Anth the potty potter gone to pot.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:18:55 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Apples and oranges, Carol
Message:
One great aspect, to me, of the SCA, is that there is an emphasis on civility and gentility. I often spoke up here to ask that people speak in a manner which is respectful, even though other's ideas may be repugnant to you, or anger you.

Carol,

Your SCA sounds like the ultimate no-stress make-believe world. Nothing real about it. It's literally an adult dress-up game. So why shouldn't everyone there treat one another with civility and gentility? I'd expect nothing less.

On the other hand, there is no reason I can think of to categorically treat others with respect if I do indeed find their ideas repugnant. In fact, I'd consider a habit of doing so a liability.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 18:46:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: banana splitz, Jim
Message:
Jim says: 'there is no reason I can think of to categorically treat others with respect if I do indeed find their ideas repugnant.'

Jim, me ol' mucker. Call me English, but this is where I just DON'T get you.

I don't respect a lot of your ideas. But I can still treat you with respect.

Shouldn't I?

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:14:14 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Time to put on your thinking cap, Chris
Message:
Chris,

If you find my ideas repugnant, don't respect me. Me? My ideas? One and the same.

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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:54:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I can respect a difference of opinion, Jim ...
Message:
... or should I call you a putz for thinking differently?

(thinks - maybe the Diplomatic Service ain't for either of us)

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:31:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Put the Dunce's cap on Jim!
Message:
Are YOU the source of ALL your 'ideas' Jim?
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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:56:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: No, Stonor, I get my ideas from the radio
Message:
Who said anything about where one gets one's ideas from? I'm just saying that if I've got repugnant ideas, I'm a repugnant person. Try to slice it otherwise. I dare you.
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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 17:31:47 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: OK Jim, you win. You're repugnant at times.
Message:
And I'm sick of 'arguing' with you. There are two sides to every coin, no matter how you slice it.
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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 22:16:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Another dumb-ass cliche
Message:
There are two sides to every coin, no matter how you slice it.

Untrue and worthless

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 19:24:57 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: But your personality is far more repugnant to me..
Message:
But your personality is far more repugnant to me than your ideas.
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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 01:53:27 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: To Jim: This was so funny... just saw re-run
Message:
of Third Rock from the Sun: The show with aliens living as 'normal' people.

The main character 'Dick' is an extremely bright but equally abrasive character. (I got paper to take notes of a few of the lines after I practically peed myself laughing!) The professor was made to go to a class 'therapy' session for people with personality disorders because of some student's complaints about the way they were treated. He came out of it (briefly), a touch-feely nice guy who gave smiley faces as grades to his physics students' midterms. His students complained again. He was called before a school committee for a hearing. When it was his turn to talk, that's when I cracked up. Some of the things he said:

'What's wrong with conflict? The great agitators of the world have always been persecuted.....

I am an offensive person!

Is there no room in a tolerant society for people like me?
Why can't we all just not get along?'

(You know I have to agree with him! And love the character at the same time!)

Later on the students said to him that they didn't mean for the hearing to be called, to which he answered: 'No need to apologize, You're stupid and I'm rude!'

Thank God we're not all alike!

Jim, I am a person who has a problem with confrontation and conflict. Does that mean that I should avoid it at all costs? No. My little assertive jabs at you when I have disagreed and the fact that I was not harmed by any responses any one make back to me, have served to make me a more confident and courageous person. I am grateful to have had your 'aquaintance' because you challenge me to grow by you being so adamantly yourself and not afraid at all of conflict!

I actually felt a feeling of physical tightness and anxiety when I posted my response to your 'Apples and Oranges' post to me. Basically, fear, for no good reason except that it is my conditioning from past experience: grooves in the record. Why?
Because I was daring to go outside my normal conflict-avoiding self to tell you basically that you were closeminded in your judgment of the 'fantasy' or false world of SCA in which gentility was easy (it's not easy, anywhere that people gather!)I don't think I missed your point, but yes, I added another one.

The point, now, is that I want to change myself away from fear of expressing what I truely feel or believe even in the face of conflict, even when what I say may invite or entice further conflict. Some things are worth fighting for.

So when do we spar? Pick your weapon. Now imagine, wouldn't it be fun to have a heated argument and be impassioned to fight the best we could in a 'fantasy' role play of actually being dressed in suitable armor with real (modified for safety) weapons, having an audience and following rules of fair play? Then the winner could agree to disagree, politely or not depending on the winner! Ha!
Carol

PS. Jim, The hats in SCA can be as funny as you want, as long as they could have been like those from 1300 to 1700 or so! But individuals do not hire themselves out for entertainment of lawyers, as far as I know!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:27:41 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Apples and oranges, Carol
Message:
No, Jim, actually that which one learns and demonstrates while making art, costumes, music, and friends and even 'war' are valuable transferable skills in the real world! Too bad your view is so narrow of what is worthwhile for people to do. Too bad for you, too. I imagine you could have a much more interesting and rewarding life if you would allow yourself.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:00:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Do you get to wear funny hats?
Message:
Carol,

You missed my point but whatever. It was only a point and maybe it's just easier to go with yours.

Hey, listen, do you get to wear funny hats? Because I've been looking for something to do with my super uptight lawyer colleagues where we could schedule an hour or two of rip-roaring fun. But we want to wear funny hats. So you've got tell me, what's with the hats?

Money, of course, is no issue.

Now, we don't have a lot of time. Perhaps you people could come by the office this wednesday and bring whatever paper you've got on this. I'd like to see the contract and I know my friends would too. We're thinking of booking the last weekend in August, if that's okay. Terms would include from Friday at, say, seven? to Sunday evening.

But first, we need to know about the hats. What kind? Do we keep them? That kind of thing.....

(By the way, thanks, Carol, for giving me this opportunity to find my inner child again)

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 12:11:58 (GMT)
From: Already?
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Don't start!
Message:
What do you know about other people's lives?

! Too bad your view is so narrow of what is worthwhile for people to do. Too bad for you, too. I imagine you could have a much more interesting and rewarding life if you would allow yourself.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:54:47 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Welcome back
Message:
Yes, you certainly deserve to be treated with respect and I recommend that any post you find to be less than totally respectful you just ignore. And you certainly don't need to be officially 'out' any more than 'in' or anything else. Just yourself is fine, with all its excruciating complexity.

Welcome back to this wild and whacky conversation.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:38:08 (GMT)
From: gregg
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Welcome back, Carol
Message:
This forum goes a lot of differnt ways. When people attack each other, it seems like blood to sharks. Posts proliferate. But, just as often, people engage each other from heart to heart.

I meditate and have a guru. People are generally kind about this. Scientism is not the only viewpoint on this site.

But ALL of us, I think it is safe to say, have been victim to cultic thinking. It is one of the purposes of this place to liberate us from this stupid emotionallly regressive way of engaging the world and our experience of it. Culthink.

Feel free to talk to us, even though most of us here feel that GMJ is a pathetic figure; one who's been told he's a guru/god, even though he's not been through the training/discipline to qualify him as even a low level teacher.

Your experience is one thing; your indocrination is another...look at what indocrination is: parental, societal, and cultic...and sort it out. That's what spiritual growth is about.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:33:33 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gregg
Subject: Well said, Gregg!! Thanks!
Message:
look at what indocrination is: parental, societal, and cultic...and sort it out. That's what spiritual growth is about.

I've got to find a place to keep this one!

Stonor

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:43:45 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: gregg
Subject: hi Gregg (ot)
Message:
gregg: I've lost your email address. It seems silly for me to keep posting OT stuff when I can talk to you directly. Send me your email address if you will.

Fondly, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:43:05 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: sirdavid12@hotmail.com
To: Carol
Subject: Free feels good
Message:
Could you please explain, to an ignorant half Anglo-Saxon such as myself, what bi-polar means. Does it mean that you are half penguin and half polar bear or does it mean that you spend your days travelling from one end of the globe to the other?

Any other expanation would be appreciated since it's a term I read here with alarming regularity.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:08:29 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Bi-Polar Hahahaha
Message:
I love both your definitions! Thanks Sir Dave!

And thanks to the others who extended welcome, or welcome back!

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:57:47 (GMT)
From: Dr. Frasier Crane
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Bi Polar = Manic Depressive
Message:
Bi polar in psychiatric terms means you tend to go from one extreme to the other. Manic Depressive Disorder, in which people alternate between mania and depression is a bi polar disorder, meaning there are two 'poles' or extreme points, and the individual swings from one to the other.

Next caller.......

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 07:20:47 (GMT)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Dr. Frasier Crane
Subject: Bi Polar = Manic Depressive
Message:
Yeah, but doesn't that label sound like a maniac that gets depressed!!!

I personally have never been to either extreme to the point that I was a danger to myself or anyone. I guess it is mild...sort of sitting more toward the middle of the poles...hmm sound familiar?

I was hypomanic for about 3 months, which felt great! That word I understand means: just under manic. I had more energy and enthusiasm than I'd had for years! What's wrong with this?!?!!!I asked. The Dr. said I'd likely get manic if I wasn't medicated, or more depressed than before. I guess manic is not fun, a bit too driven and hyped for fun.

But I'm taking my chances for now. I experienced a 'mixed state' of mania and depression recently but I dealt with it mostly by writing poetry. I had some medicine side effects that were totally unacceptable and want to clear my body of drugs for a while: indefinitely unless I actually get have a problem.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 19:22:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Bi Polar = Manic Depressive = more alive than most
Message:
Hi there Carol,

Yup, I too have been through the mill of the labels the shrinks want us to identify with (while they themselves keep carefully out of the reach of such potentially damning diagnoses - and no wonder!)

The highs and the lows are dangerous to society, doncha know? Any attempt to live your life to the full is bound to attract the attention of those who feel threatened by anything out of the ordinary. So where does that leave us? Bound to be mediocre?

There's a subtle art to learning the shrink-speak and the concepts behind the so-called 'science' of psychiatry/psychology. As a science, it's only been around for just over 100 years, yet since its inception it's pride has been in thinking it has, and always WILL have ALL the answers as to what makes an OK human being (even though those answers keep changing).

Personally, I wonder if anyone has done any research into identifying the kind of person who become a shrink?

Could there be a common denominator there?

I wonder.

My ideal/dream is to find a community that values honesty and free expression.

Strange how that was once an attribute (as I saw it) of the premies ...

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:41:15 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Bi Polar = Manic Depressive
Message:
I agree that there is a lot of 'over-diagnosis' going on, but I have also known people with serious manic depressive disorder and it's something that is critically damaging to their lives and families and it wasn't until they got diagnosed that something was done about it. Fortunately, I have seen people get medication that really helps them. Depression is bad enough, but it seems the swings from mania to depression is even worse, or can be.
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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 00:26:23 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: That's pathetic, Chris
Message:
If you think you've gotten an unfair shake from psychiatrists, fair enough. Maybe you have. But to suggest that diagnoses like bi-polar are just indications of small-mindedness, even envy, is pathetic. What's next? That we label people paranoid shizophrenics because they can see the whole picture and we can't? Or psychotic because we resent their ability to really feel things strongly? Obsessive-compulsives just having admirable single-mindedness? Depressives just being realistic?

Unreal.

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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 11:39:49 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: That's pathetic, Chris
Message:
Don't know WHERE you get the 'small-mindedness, even envy' angle from, Jim.

The gist of my post was to suggest that the kind of credence given psychiatrists by society is, IMO, well worth re-evaluating (though I'm NOT denying that ill people who are in need of emotional/mental healing CAN benefit from psychiatry). But I've known the kind of power that the state (at least here in the UK) can wield over people who fall foul of the Mental Health Act, and consequently I will readily accede to the fact that my opinion of much psychiatry/psychology is somewhat jaundiced.

Some people might be willing to give shrinks the power over them to decide what's healthy and what's not healthy. What is acceptible behaviour and what constitutes an illness. But that's some power there, Jim.

Kind of reminds me in a not-too-distant way of the sort of power that we let the Maha have over us.

It wouldn't be pathetic to question THAT now, would it Jim?

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 06:13:25 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You can be pathetic, Jim . . .
Message:
You can be pathetic at times, Jim, as agaim you bite back at your friends. Let me bring up the classic statistics BS:

What is 'normal' except as defined by the 'psych'/stats: average. (You've heard of the crossing of a river of the 'average' depth of 3 feet, haven't you?) All those who inspire or lead are not of this 'set'. What/who is 'normal'? Only the average/'normal', who go along complacently with the 'status quo'. Is that you Jim? I don't think so. Have you had, or have you any vision of creating a 'work' of lasting intrinsic value? Maybe. But that isn't 'the norm', is it? I think that is what Chris is trying to discuss. Are you capable of discussing that concept?

Stonor

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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:34:06 (GMT)
From: Lotus Eater
Email: None
To: everyone in this thread
Subject: There is nothing more bi polar than a premie
Message:
That is why I take it with a grain of salt when a premie is diagnosed as bi polar. There is some evidence to suggest that the swings can be exacerbated, or even caused by environmental factors. In my observation, being a premie is a serious factor......take away the irritant and people can get better; and, as Carol is indicating, become able to take control again.
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Date: Sat, Aug 05, 2000 at 05:36:12 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: There is nothing more bi polar than a premie
Message:
So true, L.E. Being a premie is being in a cage. You can be one way which is 'good', or another way, which is 'bad' So you go back and forth between the 2. No middle ground. No continuum. Just these wild swings. You have given me a lot to think about with your post. No wonder all the ice cream eating sessions back in my premie days, or other types of wild indulgences!!
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Date: Fri, Aug 04, 2000 at 20:39:11 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Lotus Eater
Subject: Good point LE...nicely stated (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:13:51 (GMT)
From: ET
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What Happened in Boston?
Message:
I was in Boston on June 12. I tried to go to the thing but my cab driver couldn't find it. I wandered into a church and then to a park.

I missed it! I wanted to protest.

What happened? I couldn't find it on the inactive index.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:26:27 (GMT)
From: Salam
Email: None
To: ET
Subject: You should not have left you ship like that ET!!
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:04:46 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anyone have Post DECA Traumatic Stress?
Message:
I was reading a post below which mentioned DECA, and I realized tthat I have hardly seen it discussed in
these pages. Of all the intense cultish anomalies I went through, this must have been the weirdest. Also one
where I started to notice a lot of abuse. Here are a couple of examples:

Many families had moved to Miami to work at DECA (which was a project to rehab and furnish a luxurious
full-size plane for MJ). People were basically drafted, and whole families with kids and all decamped to
town, and lived in terrible, cramped conditions in old hotels on the beach such as the London House (anyone
remember that one?). A whole family with kids in one room. The mothers whose service it was to provide
back-up to the brothers doing the dirty work were having a hard time. Basically they had to stay home with
the kids and try to manage on a tiny budget. So someone got together a support system with a food-buying
club to try to help these families out. It used a small piece of the DECA offices and personnel to organize. MJ
nixed it, saying that this wasn't the purpose of DECA, to take care of the premie families. And they were left
again to their own resources. Any of you remember this?

The thing that most pissed me off was the environmental hazard that MJ knowingly put premies into. There
was a paint-shop in the DECA warehouse which had very inadequate protection from fumes for the poor
slaves who were constantly spray-painting airplane parts with very very toxic lacquers. The smell wafted into
the whole warehouse and used to make me faint (I already had the beginnings of CFS but thought I was just
in my mind). I was very pissed about the health hazards we were all exposed to, and I remember asking
honcho Guy Rollins about it, since he was with MJ all the time. I was asking him to ask MJ to order more
precautions be taken, since not a leaf fell in DECA without his direct involvement. Guy told me that MJ was
well aware of the situation. Period. 'But, but, but,' I stammered. Guy just looked at me like, why are you
even questioning HIS decisions. Anyway, either one or two premies who worked in that paintshop died of
cancer. One was a woman, one a guy, and I'm not sure they both died (this is buried information in my brain
and it happened after I left. Heinous!

Any old DECAns out there?

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 20:08:13 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Anyone have Post DECA Traumatic Stress?
Message:
Yes, I remember the crowded living conditions. The ashram premies lived in old hotels on Miami Beach as well, the two most notorious being the Algiers and the Surfside. They crammed people into the rooms. For the first month or so after I was sent there, I slept on the floor. Floorspace was all that was available.

When I was community coordinator for Elan Vital in Miami, there were well over 400 ashram residents in Miami, mostly working on the DECA plane project. There also was IHQ and a few other cult businesses that they were trying to start. But DECA was by far the most weird.

Premies were called down in huge numbers to work on the plane. Skills among premies were lacking, and so anyone who had even anything close to 'skills' got drafted. Families were pressured to uproot from where they were, and live like rats in some decrepit old hotel in Miami. And, of course, the work-ethic at DECA was that one should work around the clock and worry about yourself, and your safety, last. But Maharaji came around all the time, so people hoped to get darshan by being there, and he sometimes came in the middle of the night. After they were in Miami, there was a lot of pressure for premie couples to get divorced so that they could become ashram residents and serve Maharaji that way. There was a premie lawyer at Elan Vital who did almost nothing but process divorce papers for premie couples. There were lots of divorces, and these divorces were actually encouraged.

By the way, that 'satsang' of Maharaji from Christmas, 1979, which has been quoted here extensively, was given AT DECA, in the middle of the plane project, and, of course, in that 'satsang' Maharaji said that if you didn't devote your life to him you were going to hell and also that he was the same thing as Jesus Christ, as he gave the very same 'knowledge.' But 'knowledge' like Michael Dettmers said below, is JUST a means of devoting your life to Maharaji. And DEVOTION is what is the purpose of your life. Of course, as Elan Vital now says, this was just a cultural misunderstanding, and what Maharaji said then and at other times, had nothing to do with people divorcing their spouses and becoming dedicated monastics. Of couse not. Also, I heard EV say that the Pope is NOT Catholic.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 20:25:53 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Working Hazards at DECA.....
Message:
When I first got sent to DECA in 1979, I was an ashram premie who was working as a paralegal in a big Chicago law firm. This was no exaulted position by any means, but I was still the highest income in my ashram. Anyhow, I got sent to work in the legal department at DECA, I guess because they were desperate for anybody with any skills whatsoever.

My first assignment was to try to get permits for all the stuff DECA was doing. In my research, I found out that, although there were hundreds of premies working there, DECA didn't have ANY permits or licenses, carried no workers compensation insurance, had quite a number of people 'employed' in violation of the immigration laws, and had people working illegally for NO PAY, which is the same thing as slavery, and was, at that time, illegal in the State of Florida.

And that didn't even begin to deal with the OSHA violations. My god, they had MANY, like Lurkex mentioned. Plus, people worked around the clock, which, in itself, was very dangerous to personal safety. MANY workers just slept at DECA each night and worked basically around the clock. Nonethess, since most people didn't know what they were doing, the plane took forever to complete, plus Maharaji micromanaged the project and kept changing his mind about what he wanted.

Plus, DECA was used for all sorts of other things, including storing one of Maharaji's Rolls Royces (I felt so blissed out that I got to TOUCH his Rolls Royce), making furniture for Maharaji and for Raja Ji and Claudia, making cabinets for 'the residence', thrones and stages for 'events' and virtually everything else that Maharaji whimsically wanted, which seemed to be endless. And the attitude of Maharaji wasn't to ASK for something. Oh, no. Maharaji just EXPECTED that whatever he wanted would be done, and he never gave a fig about what that might do to the premies who were trying to give it to him.

There were lots of dangerous chemicals used at DECA, and there were no precautions taken to protect the premies from injury, or at least very little. In addition to the paint shop, many toxic chemicals were used, for example, to clean the instruments in the cockpit of the plane. (The Boeing 707 was 20 years old when they got it, and in pretty bad shape.) A premie I know, Nancy McCoy, had been a jewelry maker, and was brought to DECA to work on cleaning and preparing the instruments. She had to use really toxic chemicals. Anyway, the chemicals really damaged her health, and after DECA, she had to go home to Napa, California and live with her parents, and couldn't work for a number of years. I spoke with her once about filing a workers comp. claim against DECA and Elan Vital, but I don't think she ever did.

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:50:10 (GMT)
From: Lurkex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Damn, ... I knew Nancy!
Message:
This stuff sucks, to me, worse than almost anything, probably because the worst effect of my whole cult involvement was that my health got ruined, and I'm still working on getting it back decades later.

How much do I hold MJ responsible for this? Not totally. I made stupid choices, and had a family predisposition for giving my life away to a cause. I had a typical young person's arrogance about how much I could put my body through and it would still bounce back. I still remember the chilling fear when Irealized that I wasn't bouncing back, but had somehow broken down my own immune system.

But the factors of divinely-encouraged overwork and these environmental scandals are pretty.... evil. This is on a par with the sexual abuse stuff.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:19:18 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Lurkex
Subject: Very insightful and I agree
Message:
Lurkex: I read your posts all the time. I like your tone and attitude. What struck me from this post is your comments about trying to sort out where your own responsibility ends and where Rotwat's and the organizational responsibility begins, with respect to the physical damage done to you. I think that we each have to sort that out for ourselves, and that the dividing line for assessing blame is different for each of us, given our own circumstances and particular abuse perpetrated upon us by the cult. Although you are willing to take some responsibility for having made the choice to do service to Rotwat working on the plane, as someone who had already left the cult by the time this particular service was offered, I am outraged by what was done to you and countless others. Service working on the plane was the ultimate test: will you endanger your health for Rotwat? That is why I totally agree with your assessment that the physical harm that premies were asked to endure is just as serious as the sexual abuse. I suspect that it is only now that some who worked on the plane are realizing what damage was done to them back then, and how it has affected their lives in the years in between.

It's sort of like the lawsuits that were filed against the coal companies, or cigarette companies, when people only discovered years later what they were exposed to.

Did you live in Chicago?

Take care, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 23:59:18 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: Damn, ... I knew Nancy!
Message:
Nancy has listed her address and email in the Ex-premie white pages on the ex-premie.org site, but I don't know if she has ever posted here. I think she still lives in Napa, and I'm sure she would love to hear from you.
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:54:21 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: These industrial crimes must be accounted for
Message:
Anyone who has anything to write about this DECA scandal, please do it here now and I'll but it on my website for all to see.
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 19:39:09 (GMT)
From: deca refugee
Email: None
To: Lurkex
Subject: DECA/environmental crimes
Message:
Yes, many of us saw many wierd, bizarre things down there.
A friend, who I totally respect and trust, told me that there were a number of 55 gallon drums of extremely toxic chemicals at DECA.
The normal thing to do is to have them disposed of according to OSHA standards, which may cost many thousands of dollars per barrel.
It can be costly, but it is the only responsible way to deal with that toxicity of chemicals.
A premie, upon learning of this, and knowing that DECA was up to it's neck in unpaid bills, offered to 'dispose'of the barrels by himself.
They were loaded in his pickup truck one night, and were never seen again.
He bragged to a few people that he had dumped them in the everglades, in a remote location.
A few days later my friend heard on the radio, a 'NPR'type show, that a huge fish kill was detected in the everglades, from a toxic chemical dump done illegally in the last few days...
The premie thought it was cool...
I will not name his name now, but might at some later time...
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:36:09 (GMT)
From: EPA
Email: None
To: deca refugee
Subject: Do you have any more information on this?
Message:
Did this really happen?
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 20:00:20 (GMT)
From: Zelda
Email: None
To: deca refugee
Subject: 'Going to work for Deca'
Message:
As only one in the sea of premie moms-
I do remember this phrase being mumbled by premie women friends - it was something to be honored sort of.
I also remember my relief when my man did not 'go to work for Deca' (But he had a sense of failure that only meditation could fix. Lots of it. It was hard to keep the children quiet while daddy meditated. but thats another story.)

That relief I felt made me feel guilty. It meant I was not devoted enough to move the family and let my holy lord take care of me as he did every leak that fell.No WONDER he didnt get the position he wanted.

So I had to be content with my substandard housing and neglected children right where I was because every ounce of my attention had to be to support the working men while they helped the lord save the planet.

OI

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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 21:49:27 (GMT)
From: EddytheTurtle
Email: None
To: Zelda
Subject: Afer Deca a co was formed and sold off
Message:
Well that is funny, because in 85 I was in London, and heard from this Saudi guy how pleased he was to buy this Miami jet fitting co from a Mr Rawat...I am assuming that it was M or Rajaji. Later this Saudi looked very glum...aparently he paid alot of money for assets which were not there
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 15:14:23 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Cynthia's post, June 20
Message:
Sir Dave:
If you are collecting posts on the DECA scandal(s) for your web page, you might be interested in including this one by Cynthia:

Date:
Tues, Jun 20, 2000 at 21:46:23
From:
Cynthia G.
Email:
None
To:
All
Subject:
To: (Sir) David, Roger eDrek and Jean Michel
Message:
And to everyone,
First Sir David, I neglected to mention in my above post that you also are included in the
good fight for freedom of speech and information--my apologies. That said, it just
occurred to me that while I was at the DECA project (I posted about this several months
ago) that there was an actual THEFT of documents from Boeing in Seattle by a premie
who worked there.
I was there at the project, the aircraft had been acquired, I knew who the premie was, saw
the documents, handled the documents in preparing them for use by the engineers,
designers, and mechanics, knew they were photocopies and not originals, and knew they
were smuggled out of Boeing offices for the purposes of saving money on the legitimate
purchase of these documents (which would have been pricey, I'm sure). There were
volumns of proprietary and intellectual property in the form of schematics, engineering
specs, you name it. Ripped off. The nerve.
Now I know that premie didn't just have a 'great idea' one day to help m out with his
airplane project--it was a huge secret at the time--this was happening before we even
moved to the big 'complex.' She must have been requested to do so by someone in
charge. All of us at DECA working in that small office at the time were fully aware that
what she was doing was extremely risky but not only because documents were being
stolen. Boeing is a contractor for the US Federal Government, as in The Pentagon. One
just doesn't 'smuggle' out of a Federal aircraft contractor for the United States military. I
shutter at how many laws may have been broken in that episode of the B707. I always
wondered what would have happened if she had been caught. This was discussed by us
workers, as well as by the honchos. And they pressured her beyond belief to get them out
of Boeing down to Miami ASAP after the aircraft acquisition. Every day, boxes and boxes
of documents.
Another scary episode in my life with m. I knew of a serious theft going on and, well,
geeze, I wonder about statute of limitation on that kind of thing.
Ironic, isn't it?
Best,
Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 15:32:27 (GMT)
From: deca dropout
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Cynthia's post, June 20
Message:
To Cynthia-if you still read or post here, I have one question:was the woman who stole the documents very short in stature?
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:31:46 (GMT)
From: buzz
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: thanks
Message:
i'd just like to say a big big thanks to all the exies.posting here.you are all a big inspiration and help in getting this shit cleaned up,i feel close to you all, obviously cause we've been through the same crap together,i pray to God that you all feel free and enjoy your lives.
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 16:41:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: buzz
Subject: Don't forget to join Ex-Premie AMP (nt)
Message:
eeee
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Date: Wed, Aug 02, 2000 at 18:58:25 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Are you the EPPC?
Message:
Jim, are you the Ex-Premie Participation Contact? Or are you the FC? I thought the CC at EV appointed you the ACIHF. Isn't that how you got into synch? Please let me know over the secure email program.
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:10:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: No, I'm the Regional WWA Officer (nt)
Message:
ffff
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 00:27:47 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The proliferation of 'coordinators'.....
Message:
In Elan Vital, everbody was a 'coordinator,' a senseless term meaning you were supposed to have something to do, but really didn't. I remember reading those skills questionnaires that premies sent in to IHQ; it was my 'service' for awhile to review them for new recruits and for sources of money for the plane project. When I saw somebody had listed 'coordination' as a skill, I figured they had been in the cult a long, long time.

A few days ago, somebody posted that hysterical 'report' of 'Amaroo Day' in Miami that smacked of the old coordinator crap. One name I recognized in that report was Ted Levitt, who replaced me as community coordinator in Miami in 1981, and is apparently still there, and still 'coordinating' well into his middle age. I recall being at a 'coordinators' meeting after some festival in Miami in about 1980, at which a big announcement was made that Ted Levitt is now the honey oat bar coordinator for the United States. Ted was, of course, thrilled to get this important and blissful service.

By the way, 'honey oat bars' were these heavy peanut butter and oatmeal 'bars' that premies around the country got together and made that sold them to health food stores, etc. And people ate them and became constipated and flatulent. The profits went to the plane project. Of course, for something this important, there needed to be a 'coordinator' on a national level, to 'coordinate' things. Ted appears to be following up and coordinating, even writing 'reports' even today.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 02:20:56 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Hey Joe,ease up a bit, will ya?I too was a.....
Message:
Joe-I usually read your posts with a certain sort of respect, as you usually have something relevant to say, but this time you've gone too far, you're just a bit over the top,my friend...

You may not remember, but I was the Honey Oat Bar Coordinator in DC when you were the community coordinator there.

and yes, it WAS important and it WAS blissful service....

and I'll bet you grabbed a few HOB's now and then from the ashram fridge...

I think you're OK joe, it's just that sometimes your humour cuts too close to the bone...

I really plugged into that service, bro...it meant a lot to me...(and now you make fun of it...)

I'll just have to go beyond it..it was probably just my spiritual ego anyway...

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:05:20 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Hey Joe,ease up a bit, will ya?I too was a.....
Message:
Sorry, La, but I wasn't making fun of the premies who actually made the bars, I was making fun of the tendency that every premie wanted to be a manager of something and it struck me funny, even then, that there was a NATIONAL coordinator for honey oat bars. Why there would need to be one for something like that was kind of humerous.

Somehow I thought DC was too sophisticated to get involved in honey oat bars, but I guess I had forgotten.

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:06:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe Whalen -- joke spoiler! (nt)
Message:
fffffff
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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 14:53:12 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: OK Joe..apology accepted...the healing has begun..
Message:
Joe-I hope you realized that my previous post was entirely 'tongue in cheek'.

Actually, to update you on the HOB dynasty in DC, I used to coordinate some of the HOB crews in DC.I think we would meet at the satsang hall in Bethesda and then go over to a kitchen at some premie run natural foods shop (Premlata, run by Faruch Gongee?)to make the bars.

Now this part is salacious, scandalous and dark, but I feel that after all these years of silence,maybe I can be the 'Deep Throat' of the Honey Oat Bar scene...
OK, here it is...

When we would go over to the kitchen to make the bars, we wouldn't have satsang!Someone actually tried to connect a phone feed from the hall to the kitchen with a speaker tied in, so we could blissfully do service while also attending satsang as well(I guess that would count as a two for one deal), but it didn't work.
So, we would listen to premie music tapes while we rolled out the oat bars.This was of course hush, hush, as some of the volunteers were ashram premies!
Think about it, not attending satsang,but listening to devotional music while serving.It was close, but still not really attending satsang, if you know what I mean..
I think a lot of the ashramers actually liked because it gave them a night off from listening to randy stein and martin gray drone on endlessly, or from alan imbarrato or randy prouty horse whip everyone into more devotion...
Please keep this confidential,Joe...thanks

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 19:35:09 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: ...the healing has begun...? tell it to the ozone
Message:
layer...

and you thought M's plane wreaked enough pollutants into the atmosphere?

Jeez, think of all the methane you Honey Bar guys (vicariously) produced!

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Date: Thurs, Aug 03, 2000 at 16:55:17 (GMT)
From: Hone Oat Bar Maker
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: Scandal: We gobbed into the ingredients
Message:
Really, it's true. We on the Hone Oat Bar Participation Team , or HOBPT, had satsang and really felt that the people of the world who would buy the honey oat bars were just so unconscious in their failure to recognize Guru Maharaj Ji as the messiah and the Perfect Master, that we felt they deserved to eat honey oat bars with snot and spit in them. We also caught flies and threw them in too. You know, it added to the ingredients and made more bars and more profit for the Lord of the Universe and his mission to save the world. God, it was so beautiful.
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