Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Jun 21, 2000 at 09:23:22 (GMT)
From: Jun 11, 2000 To: Jun 19, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Keith -:- 10 NEGATIVES -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:18:13 (GMT)
__ la-ex -:- 10 NEGATIVES -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 03:45:32 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- 10 NEGATIVES -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 06:06:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- 10 NEGATIVES -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 06:10:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Hal -:- Nice post Keith. -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Keith -:- Nice post Keith. -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 23:38:42 (GMT)
__ Gilead -:- Lord of the Universe -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 01:51:42 (GMT)
__ __ Keith -:- Lord of the Universe -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 06:13:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- Keith: re: 'numbers game' thread below -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:16:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Keith -:- Keith: re: 'numbers game' thread below -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 23:44:40 (GMT)

Jim -:- Sorry, but I want to squeeze her face again (ELK) -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:31:54 (GMT)
__ david goldberg -:- have you considered quitting your day job? -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 16:22:54 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- You're in BIG trouble now, Jim -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:43:56 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Yes, I see the buzzards circling ...... -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:58:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Loaf -:- Yes, I see the Hamsters circling ...... -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 05:56:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, HAMSTERS, are only greasy on the inside -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:20:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: ELK poster -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:10:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Re: ELK poster -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 16:31:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: ELK poster -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 17:25:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: ELK poster -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:56:48 (GMT)

Jim -:- BOSTON, 2000: On-the-spot coverage (ELK Newswire) -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:18:54 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Re: Boston 2000 (error) -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:31:52 (GMT)
__ Nigel -:- Great opportunity for WHAT? -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:28:17 (GMT)

gErRy -:- Nope, no conspiracy here...(OT) -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 20:00:59 (GMT)
__ poet -:- Nope, no conspiracy here...(OT) -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:27:57 (GMT)
__ gerry -:- what the fuck? Moonies buy UPI ??? -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:22:30 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- what the fuck? Moonies buy UPI ??? -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 20:59:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- what the fuck? Moonies buy UPI ??? -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 21:18:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonora -:- what the fuck? Moonies buy UPI ??? -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 00:20:28 (GMT)
__ __ poet -:- what the fuck? Moonies buy UPI ??? -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:29:59 (GMT)

Stonor -:- Dr. Laura revisited - for your files -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:41:16 (GMT)
__ Elaine -:- Dr. Laura revisited - for your files -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:52:11 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Dr. Laura revisited - for your files -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 19:12:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Helen -:- Dr. Laura revisited - for your files -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:32:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joe -:- Come on, Helen -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 17:04:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Come on, Helen -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 20:19:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Come on, Helen -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 21:25:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ Michael -:- Dr. Laura revisited - for your files -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 22:13:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- helen, may I speak? -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 21:43:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- helen, may I add to his comments? -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 23:35:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- helen, may I add to his comments? -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 01:56:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I am so sorry about your friend -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 00:07:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ helen -:- Joe/Stonor/Gerry -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 01:16:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joe -:- Joe/Stonor/Gerry -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 23:14:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Joe/Stonor/Gerry -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 01:46:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Joe/Stonor/Gerry -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 15:24:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Dr. Laura--my last post on the subject -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 23:09:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Helen, thanks for the discussion, I really enjoyed -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 01:30:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Helen, thanks for the discussion, I really enjoyed -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 01:51:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Helen, thanks for the discussion, I really enjoyed -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 18:13:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- from YOU Miss Anything Goes!! (: -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 20:35:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Helen, thanks for the discussion, I really enjoyed -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 02:34:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- strawberries and romance -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 20:33:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- strawberries but no romance ;-( -:- Thurs, Jun 15, 2000 at 03:18:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- strawberries but no romance ;-( -:- Thurs, Jun 15, 2000 at 18:04:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- strawberries but no romance ;-( -:- Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- PS I should've read the posts below because you -:- Thurs, Jun 15, 2000 at 03:26:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Helen, thanks for the discussion, I really enjoyed -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 18:17:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I can see you are personally invested in this... -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 02:22:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- I can see you are personally invested in this... -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 20:55:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Helen, you provocative thing, you. -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 21:24:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Gerry--you're provacateur (sp) yourself -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 22:58:07 (GMT)

Gilead -:- Is Rennie Davis still a premie? -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:35:29 (GMT)
__ Way -:- Re:Is Rennie Davis still a premie? -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:31:46 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- The Master Bedroom -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:50:57 (GMT)

blood -:- Webmasters involved in copyright infringe... issue -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:51:06 (GMT)

Wish -:- Moderated Forum -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:34:30 (GMT)
__ Forum admin -:- Moderated Forum -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 20:02:15 (GMT)
__ __ U Thunt -:- EX,S ARE NEVER CHALLENGED! -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:40:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- EX,S ARE NEVER CHALLENGED???? -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 10:22:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- EX,S ARE NEVER CHALLENGED???? -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 02:09:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Ya! For the records sake. why can't you answer? -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 14:33:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ GOSsipper -:- Ya! For the records sake. why can't you answer? -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 23:05:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Here we have isolated the x factor in 'mob ment... -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 23:25:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- OK! This year's recipient of the Selene Award ... -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 15:05:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- I'll make you a deal -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 22:56:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Wow, what do you know? Raina misunderstood me -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 01:51:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hi Raina -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 01:41:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yeah it's all about YOU -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 16:33:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ raina -:- yeah it's all about HIM -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 23:08:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Jim, maybe you or the FA should answer this.. -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 10:15:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Forum admin -:- Different forum, different admin -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 13:50:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well, well, Mel with his excellent advice again -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 15:09:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Well, well, Mel with his excellent advice again -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 10:16:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And before you call me a hypocrite ... -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 15:32:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Jim, let's meet for Afternoon Tea at the Empress -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 22:35:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- empress theatre hot porno shop in tucson -:- Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 05:01:50 (GMT)
__ Hal -:- Moderated Forum -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:42:47 (GMT)
__ Dave -:- Sifting Through! -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 17:37:40 (GMT)
__ __ gErRy -:- social misfit--I resemble that remark! -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:14:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- social misfit--I resemble that remark! -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 17:39:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Moe -:- Remind me to murder you later... -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 17:47:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ (Sir) David -:- Dave's not me, I am (Sir) David if you please (nt) -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:24:14 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- Fuck you, gutless wonder hiding behind a fake name -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:48:23 (GMT)
__ __ Gilead -:- Re: Forum Moderators -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:33:05 (GMT)

Mili -:- Bird dog -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 15:59:03 (GMT)
__ bill dog -:- Bird dog -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 04:05:14 (GMT)
__ Keith -:- Bird dog -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 08:45:27 (GMT)

raina -:- FA? Could you please confirm by comparing IP nos. -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 06:35:14 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- Don't be ridiculous -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 21:07:09 (GMT)
__ Forum admin -:- For what it's worth... -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 19:45:41 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- I would NEVER ask anyone be 'deleted'. EVER! -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:09:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Raina needs special humour flags -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:17:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- Elaine? Can I get a witness? -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 02:27:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, I don't recall that at all -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 02:51:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Elaine -:- Elaine? Can I get a witness? -:- Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 02:43:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ Forum admin -:- I would NEVER ask anyone be 'deleted'. EVER! -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 11:14:28 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Raina - ET is a regular poster here -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:28:53 (GMT)
__ __ raina -:- I've noticed........... -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:23:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- I've noticed........... -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 12:23:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ raina -:- beauty -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:57:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ raina -:- p.s. -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:30:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- um raina... -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:44:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ raina -:- Walt Whitman was ONE of them........ -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:18:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- How dare you use that name!!!! -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:22:47 (GMT)

Suzanne -:- Hi Everyone -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 04:18:47 (GMT)
__ Robyn -:- Hi Everyone -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 11:07:31 (GMT)
__ NewJerseyJerry -:- Hi Everyone -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 05:36:38 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Hi Everyone -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 11:10:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ Keith -:- Hi Everyone -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 08:56:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Hi Everyone -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 20:22:28 (GMT)

Gilead -:- Anyone Know About Jim Jones? -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:30:32 (GMT)
__ Gilead Ji IV -:- Hey, I'm Lonely Here With My Inquiry. -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:37:37 (GMT)
__ __ Katie -:- With all due respect... -:- Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 21:56:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ Gilead -:- With all due respect... -:- Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 01:43:04 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:18:13 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 10 NEGATIVES
Message:
I think for the sake of balance I should add ten negatives about Maharaji to follow the ten profound philosophical examples I gave in another thread (in response to cq's challenge). Also, I have no problem taking a middle role. The tendency here to take extreme positions really irks me. Extremism expresses here not only in relation to Maharaji and premies but also in a whole range of other subjects.IMHO. The 'art' of stepping out of polarities and see both sides of an issue often seems to be sorely lacking here. Fueled by unresolved anger and bitterness. Well, I'm not negating the reasons why such anger is present. I understand. But I must present my own perspective. And I do feel that the more extreme expressions do little for the cause. It might be good therapy for some but even that is dubious for those who hold onto their anger and can't or won't move on.
Ten Negatives about Maharaji.
1;He has perpetuated the myth of the 'chosen God-man'. The Perfect vehicle. The 'Avatar' of the age.
2;He has not personally apoligised for the errors of his past. Even if he doesn't perceive them as errors (but rather a growing and learning curve) he should have long ago acknowledged the harm he helped to create and done something to try and redress this. Here in Australia much is made out of prime minister John Howards refusal to apoligise to the aborigines for past sins that Europeans did to the indiginious peoples. The word 'sorry' seems to hold a lot of importance.
3;His focus on himself and his insistence that premies almost exclusively focus on him as the font of all guidance in 'spiritual matters'.
4;His refusal to change his public image . To renounce his authoratarian position . At least in the days of the initiators there was some power sharing.
5;His less than humble 'grandstanding' of his triumphs. How many countries he has visited. How many people he has given knowledge to.
6;His attempt to create an organisation(regerdless of what it is abled or not labled) that runs 'like a swiss watch'. Which means conformity, no questioning and subserviance.
7;His influence over 'elan vital'. In how the videos are produced . The whole injection of manipulated scenes designed to evoke emotions that subdue the questioning mind.
8;His silence , his non response to the major criticisms aimed against him.
9;His wordy babble that intersperses his great philosophical and psychological truths.
10;The way that he censors and edits his own web site. No general discussion allowed by premies. What a shame! What a shambles!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 03:45:32 (GMT)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: 10 NEGATIVES
Message:
Keith-thank you for what I feel was a thoughtful, well balanced piece.Have you ever considered submitting that to someone in EV or Visions?I think every one of the 10 comments was insightful.Why don't you work on it a bit more and submit it to someone around m?
LA-EX
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 06:06:54 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: 10 NEGATIVES
Message:
Thanks la-ex. I could work on these actually rather hastily constructed yet authentically felt 'ten negatives'. Polish them. Add to them. And perhaps send them to 'someone'. Do you have anyone in mind? Of course, I am not the only one who has recently listed such negatives. I believe that my objections are more up to date than many ex's who's experiences are pre 80's. I only really 'got out' a little over a year ago. They are therefore more relevant to the premies and fence sitters of today. But I would like to add 'ten positives' when I get around to it too. Does that bother you? This positive-negative list could be extended. I feel it is psychologically and spiritually cleansing and healing to walk such a middle path. I am not in the middle as far as my status as an ex premie is concerned. This is the contentpoint for some. But when I was a premie I walked a middle path too. Only it was one which still inclined me towards being a premie. Even though I always strongly disliked the term 'premie'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 06:10:43 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: la-ex
Subject: 10 NEGATIVES
Message:
correction; Should read ;This is a contentious point for some.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:28:36 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Nice post Keith.
Message:
Thanks Keith,

I appreciate your balanced perspective. It does seem to me that there is a different experience of the whole thing of leaving M that those of us who carried on through the Maharaji lite days have, compared to those who exited when it was really a heavy Lord, cult thing. I left even more recently than you, last February and although I went through a lot it feels good now to be my own master again. Hope you keep posting as IMO it's good to have as many varying viewpoints as possible discussed. I find the idea that there is only one type of ex premie ridiculous and totally absurd.

P.S I love that term Maharaji lite that someone invented. It really cracked me up laughing although it took me a moment to get it!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 23:38:42 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Nice post Keith.
Message:
Hi hal. It is so true that it is quite absurd to think there is just one kind of ex premie. The same has to be said for premies too. And as there are premie lites and premie heavies (I presume) so there are ex lites and ex heavies too. Thanks for your encouraging words. I believe that this forum can benifit from a more balanced overall perspective.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 01:51:42 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Lord of the Universe
Message:
We owe a great deal to TVTV for documenting the real Guru Maharaj Ji with the film The Lord of the Universe. I would like to recommend that this web site offer it with amazon.com, as they give a percentage of sales, which might help pay for web site. It is just $29.99, and exposes the real story. I know that Visions must hate the video, and wish it would go away. Visions seems afraid to disclose their own Divine Light Mission films, despite it being propaganda supposedly in their own favor.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 06:13:39 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Lord of the Universe
Message:
I have never seen the video 'Lord of the Universe'. If anyone would like to send me a copy I'd really appreciate that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:16:50 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith: re: 'numbers game' thread below
Message:
Thanks for finally responding to our hectoring (cq & me). I went down and read your 10 philosophical gems from GMJ...good points. I guess we exes tend to forget that he did have some useful teachings.

Of course, you or I could have done just as well in the guru business with those concepts...um, I mean teachings, of course. They are pretty much New Age spirituality 101.

GMJ prospered because he was in the right place (the West) at the right time (ex-hippies looking for an Indian SuperGuru), not because he was a particularly adept interpreter of the Eastern mystical tradition.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 23:44:40 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Keith: re: 'numbers game' thread below
Message:
Glad you got to read the numbers game post. You seem to have accepted my point that Maharaji did have(and does have) some gems to share. Of course you do too. And even yours truly is capable surely of dropping a beauty once in a while. And Maharaji you and I are also capable of dropping a clanger. That's more balanced now. Of course you and I don't strut playing or claiming we are perfect masters. Good for us!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:31:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sorry, but I want to squeeze her face again (ELK)
Message:
Janice Wilson:

Propagation

From Baldwinsville, New York

Boy this is so much fun! I recently bought 15 magazines from Visions at the great price of $2.00 each, a steal of a deal, and have been having fun mailing them and giving them out to interested people, aspirants and people with Knowledge.

I got to send one all the way to Kenya, $5.00 shipping and two week delivery time. I have realized that when they are all gone, 15 different people will have been able to read Maharaji's message: some for the first time, others for the second, fifth, hundredth or even thousandth time. This is great, people are really responding and enjoying .How sweet it is :)

©

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 16:22:54 (GMT)
From: david goldberg
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: have you considered quitting your day job?
Message:
Jim-I came across a portion of the EPO site today that I hadn't seen before-the EV censors section.I read your hilarious letter from 'David'.Great writing!
Have you done any others?
Do they still take letters such as these?(could more be sent now, in light of recent MRC letter,Way's objectons etc.)

Have you considered quitting the old day job and writing for Sat. Night Live?

Your pal,
'Devotional Dave' Goldberg

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:43:56 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: You're in BIG trouble now, Jim
Message:
Not only will you have Mel Boinggg! feeling your collar for the blatant threat, but that post was copyrighted (did you notice the new icon at the bottom?)

I hope you know a thing or two about the law.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:58:06 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Yes, I see the buzzards circling ......
Message:
What'd He say about you're out in the desert, no oasis, it's been years, you really fucked up this time, nothing you can do, can barely even mouth the words 'Oh my Greasy, Fat Hamster' .....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 05:56:46 (GMT)
From: Loaf
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, I see the Hamsters circling ......
Message:
You brought to mind my long departed Hamster, 'Hammy' (original name or what) who was fat. He wasn't greasy though... more fluffy. He was so fat he couldn't get up his little slide into his house.

Sometimes he got sugar puffs (breakfast cereal) stuck to his whiskers, and chased round in circles trying to catch up with 'em. My how we laughed.

He liked his wheel though.

Just thought I'd let you all know.

Sorry. I'll be quiet now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:20:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Loaf
Subject: No, HAMSTERS, are only greasy on the inside
Message:
otherwise they're indeed fluffy. Yes, that's the simple truth about hamsters. But I'm talking about the Perfect Hamster, he's particularly greasy inside and out. Too many gulab jammans.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:10:15 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: ELK poster
Message:
Jim,

You may be interested to know that Ms. Wilson has just been sent a '9 objections' letter.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 16:31:22 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: ELK poster
Message:
Way,
What do you mean - how did you get her address?

Elaine

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 17:25:27 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Re: ELK poster
Message:
hint: the Internet makes information widely available.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:56:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: ELK poster
Message:
Yes, for sure. Let us know if and how she replies, will ya? Thanks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:18:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: BOSTON, 2000: On-the-spot coverage (ELK Newswire)
Message:
Boston briefing

Reporting by Ivete Belfort Mattos:

Boston is basking in the hot summer sun, as nearly two hundred volunteers help prepare for Maharaji's first programme in New England for a decade.

The city's small Copley Theatre will be packed to capacity on Wednesday.

Local organiser Nancy Patnon said: 'To organise an event in our city is a great opportunity.'

Every effort has been made to invite people with Knowledge from the surrounding area, as some people will not have made it to more recent events in New York and Canada.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:31:52 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Boston 2000 (error)
Message:
Ivete seems to have her days mixed up. She says the Copley Theater will be packed on Wednesday. That's interesting, because Rawat and his sycophants will be there today, Monday, June 12, at least according to Elan Vital's current info. She also misspelled the organizer's name. ELK's proofreaders are having another off day.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 23:28:17 (GMT)
From: Nigel
Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Great opportunity for WHAT?
Message:
'To organise an event in our city is a great opportunity.'

To organise an event in a city is a great opportunity to organise an event in a city, I guess.

And another chance for Ivette to worry about fucking it up yet again and wonder whether she should even volunteer for future participation - such is the extent of the unbelievable happiness her involvement brings (see thread below).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 20:00:59 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Nope, no conspiracy here...(OT)
Message:
The Enemy--From Within
by
Nancy L. Nicolson, Ph.D. and Garth L. Nicolson, Ph.D.
The Institute for Molecular Medicine
Irvine, California 92619-2470

Operation Desert Storm and its unseen aftermath have forever changed the life of our family. First there was the euphoria of victory in this 100 hour war with very few casualties and the safe return of our step-daughter who was involved in the deep insertions into Iraq with Airborne and Special Forces units. But slowly the euphoria turned to nagging questions as to whether our victory was as complete as advertised, especially when our veterans started to come down with Gulf War Illness which eventually felled everyone in our family. And we were not alone.

There are now approximately 100,000 Americans sick with Gulf War Illness, and the number of estimated deaths from all causes has risen to 12,000-15,000, up from the approximately 7,000 first reported in our earlier articles in Criminal Politics. The illness is spreading in the population, because it is an airborne pathogen. For the first time we are now detecting the illness in the general population in the U.S., but in the Middle East Gulf War Illness is already a major public health problem. This is a problem that will not go away, and we will have to face it head on and stop denying and dismissing its dangers.

We Americans love a challenge, and we feel that we rose to the occasion. We were able to gather blood samples and clinical information on Gulf War Illness, describe it as a Chronic Fatigue Syndrome-like condition, identify one of the potential causes, an unusual invasive microorganism that is probably an airborne Biological Weapon released during the Gulf War, suggest successful treatments for this illness and publish our results in 9 articles, reports and letters in peer-reviewed medical journals.

Our biggest mistake was that we naively thought that our government would be supportive and grateful for our assistance. What happened instead has been a virtual nightmare. We were attacked viciously by high level military physicians, ostracized by certain colleagues who spread rumors questioning our sanity, forced out of our academic institution by a concerted effort that involved nonstop administrative harassment, mail and courier theft, wiretaps, credit card fraud, breaking of a tenure contract, computer and documents theft, attempts to block our scientific and medical presentations, sabotage our clinical samples and undermine our employees.

When encountering what is perceived as an insurmountable obstacle, our parents and grandparents always told us 'and this too shall pass.' Actually, we are glad that some of our family never lived to see the utter deterioration of everything that they and we believed in as Americans, including the honor of a system that was formed to foster an elusive American dream of justice and nobility in our laws. They did not live to see that the United States is on a collision course reminiscent of the collapse of the Roman Empire of 2,000 years ago, an empire that Christ knew all to well. After all, wasn't the U.S. government designed to follow precepts set up by the ancient Romans and Greeks?

Unfortunately, ancient Greco-Roman culture and society was also very barbaric, and it is this implacable remnant of Greco-Roman darkness that has infiltrated the very fabric of our government, which unlike its ancient counterpart was supposed to encompass the spirituality and reverence for God that was missing in ancient Rome. It is impossible not to notice that we are in the 'end times' that can only be likened to the sorrow that Christ experienced almost two thousand years ago as the governmental and religious systems of the times failed to protect the individual and were exposed for what they were.

Everyday we ask ourselves what did we do that was perceived as so wrong that an entire government, or at least a very strong and controlling faction in our government and military, should mount a continual harassment campaign against our family? In truth, all we wanted to do was help our soldiers, and now their family members and many of our citizens, to overcome a horrific chronic illness that is diagnosable and treatable. We never intended to uncover a massive, illegal Biological Weapons development and testing program, nor was it our intent to embarrass the Defense establishment or certain sectors of the scientific community. Because of our naive faith in our government, we ultimately set ourselves up for a quest that involved betrayals from people with whom we have worked for over two decades and whose very careers and livelihoods were helped significantly by our unswerving loyalty.

Not one single government on this planet involved in the Persian Gulf War will accept accountability for the release of Chemical and Biological Weapons during and after the conflict. In fact, they appear to be doing just the opposite, discounting the effects of exposures and downplaying the numbers of soldiers and civilians who were exposed. They have remained steadfast in their denial that Biological Weapons were released in Desert Storm, even though there were no detection systems for these weapons.

How else can we explain the apparent contagious nature of the illness in many veterans and their family members and the appearance of unusual, modified microorganisms in their blood? We suspect that there may be a deeply hidden agenda and that one of the original designs of Biological Weapons may be an ill-advised use in the control of world population. We also suspect that the special financial interests of global armaments dealers and pharmaceutical companies comes into play in selling these uncontrollable weapons to third world countries.

The second week of August of this year began with one of us (G.L.N.) receiving a memo stating that if we did not remove all our research equipment and materials, including precious cancer cell lines and thousands of samples of blood from Desert Storm and Vietnam veterans and civilians suffering from chronic fatigue illnesses, by the end of August, everything was going to be confiscated. The 16 years as a senior tenured faculty member and department chairman with over 400 scientific and medical publications and tens of millions of dollars in grant awards to the institution (G.L.N.) counted for nothing, and we had no choice but to remove everything from the University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center at Houston.

This was no simple task, because the samples require special storage at -70°C, and the move cost us over $100,000 from our own personal funds. We were fortunate in that the Teamsters, many of whom are veterans, provided armed protection of the samples which we felt were at risk during the transfer to California. The man who let us have the expensive freezers for the move without cash up front faces the constant threat of dismissal from his company in Missouri City, Texas, because of his willingness to help us save these samples.

What grieves us most is that we do not know if we can keep our word to the soldiers of processing their blood, as we are fighting just to keep our nascent institute going. At one point earlier this year our chief technician had a serious heart attack, and his assistant quit without notice because the stress of working on the Gulf War Illness was too extreme, forcing us to have to train new personnel while we are establishing our new laboratories from scratch. Even more disheartening is that the letters we sent out to individuals that we were able to test for mycoplasmal infections were intercepted, resulting in angry, frustrated veterans.

They are chronically ill and do not understand that a great deal is involved in the testing procedures, and at present we have only a small operation that is struggling to survive under constant harassment. We have been literally deluged with requests from around the world, and it breaks our hearts that we cannot help everyone because, we suspect, of directives of an unseen power that wishes to obliterate our scientific program. In addition, the IRS continues to block our grant from the International Monetary Fund that was approved by all the countries involved.

You might wonder why we have not gotten legal help with these problems. The answer is quite simple. Initially, the lawyers we encountered in Harris County, Texas were enthusiastic about our problems, but then each and every one of them withdrew from assisting us. In some cases they even admitted to us that we had powerful enemies that they were not prepared to fight. Although our days are colored by a continued demoralization campaign, we have vowed to give it our all.

Although it saddened us that we had to leave Houston on such a bitter note, we have made many wonderful friends there who know that the true Texans who embrace the pioneer spirit that built this country would not approve of the attacks we have endured. In fact, since coming to California we have done telephone radio broadcasts from stations in other Texas cities, such as San Antonio, Dallas and Austin, that are appalled and horrified at the treatment we have received from a famous Texas institution. But not all Texas institutions seem to be involved, because one of us (G.L.N.) will retain his professorship appointments at Texas A & M University as well as the University of Texas Medical School at Houston, and both of us will continue our collaborations with faculty at these institutions.

Although our experience has been primarily negative since we came forward with our results on the chronic infections in Gulf War Illness patients, we strongly believe that truth is our best weapon. We also believe that where there is greatness, error is often great, and it is this dictate that summarizes our feelings for the Texas Medical Center.

Our failure to thrive at the M. D. Anderson Cancer Center is in direct contrast to our success in publishing our results and receiving invitations to present in symposia at international medical and scientific meetings, such as the American Academy of Environmental Medicine, International Society for Molecular Medicine and the International Congress of the Metastasis Research Society. These positive trends have stimulated a growing awareness and awakening of prominent clinicians and scientists worldwide to the dangers of Biological Warfare and to the existence of a criminal element in the heart of the medical and scientific communities who have pursued illegal and immoral goals for personal gain.

It is clear to us that we are locked in a moral and spiritual battle. The dark forces behind this struggle are not going to retreat easily, and the only way to bring these forces down is to focus on the light. We believe that society can win this battle, but we cannot fight this battle alone, as we have only limited resources. We humbly ask each of you to reach deep into your hearts and join us in this battle which will be fought in the laboratory and clinic as well as in the halls of Congress and the Pentagon. We cannot win without your help, and we cannot lose with your help. Remember, if we lose this fight, 'The bell tolls for thee.'

Tax-deductible donations can be made to Gulf War Illness Project at the Institute for Molecular Medicine by sending a check or money order in care of the Rhodon Foundation for Biomedical Research, the parent tax-exmpt foundation for the Institute for Molecular Medicine at P.O. Box 52470, Irvine, CA 92619-2470. Thank you for your donation.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

About the Authors

Professor Garth Nicolson is the Scientific Director of the Institute for Molecular Medicine in Irvine, California. He was formally the David Bruton Jr. Chair in Cancer Research and Professor at the University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center in Houston and he remains Professor of Internal Medicine and Professor of Pathology and Laboratory Medicine at the University of Texas Medical School at Houston. Among the most cited scientists in the world, having published over 400 medical and scientific papers, edited 13 books, served on the Editorial Boards of 12 medical and scientific journals and currently serving as Editor of two journals. Professor Nicolson has active peer-reviewed research grants from the U.S. Army, National Cancer Institute, American Cancer Society and National Foundation for Cancer Research.

Dr. Nancy Nicolson is trained in molecular biophysics and is the President of the Rhodon Foundation for Biomedical Research and Chief Execetive Officer of the Institute for Molecular Medicine in Irvine, California. She has published over 25 medical and scientific papers, has delivered over 60 international and national scientific presentations and was the Who's Who in the World 1996 Woman of the Year.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:27:57 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Nope, no conspiracy here...(OT)
Message:
it's the system...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:22:30 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: what the fuck? Moonies buy UPI ???
Message:
Item: The venerable news service, UPI is sold to Rev. Sun Myung Moon’s Unification Church.

Does this bother anyone? What does this say about the main stream media?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 20:59:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: what the fuck? Moonies buy UPI ???
Message:
Hi gErRy the tErRiBlE!!

It bothers me a lot! Where did you read this? A few days ago I read Moon Webs by Josh Freed on which the movie Ticket to Heaven was based (didn't see it, must have come out while I was in Lima). It was written 20 years ago and Moon was in the big times in terms of media manipulation then. Compared to m, Rev M IS a 'Hitler' of the guru world. And there are the re'unification' talks happening in Korea now. (Better watch it, or I'll start sounding reactionary - this is where detachment can be useful/or not)

Stonora (in a rush to take advantage of sunlight after a break.)

And PS to poet, I think the word your looking for is systemic, not system, and I hope you don't want me to explain the difference.

And PS to Gerry, this is probably only the tip of the iceberg in terms of media manipulation. Modern CULTure is the baby of media CULTure. Sorry, I might be a teacher, but my first degree was in communication studies.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 21:18:19 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: what the fuck? Moonies buy UPI ???
Message:
Yeah and to think I damn near completed a degree in journalism before I woke up to the fact that there is no free press in this country and there hasn't been one for decades.

I'm not sure where I saw this item about UPI but it was a straight news story from the monopoly media.

The sun sounds nice. It's been raining here for days...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 00:20:28 (GMT)
From: Stonora
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: what the fuck? Moonies buy UPI ???
Message:
So 'what the fuck,' why didn't you hang in and finish it and contribute another voice? We are (the) people (ie. human beings) if we choose to be.

Where do you live? In Montreal, it's been raining and cold for monÝhs.

SÝonor

(what's with the weird 't's? Is it my new computer? It didnt happen all the time)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:29:59 (GMT)
From: poet
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: what the fuck? Moonies buy UPI ???
Message:
it's the fucking system...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:41:16 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Dr. Laura revisited - for your files
Message:
A word of faith from Sister Mary Elizabeth: humour

As you know, there are those who would like to return to Old Testament times. Here's some advice for those folk...

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from you, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as it suggests in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans but not Canadians. Can you clarify?

I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.


Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:52:11 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Dr. Laura revisited - for your files
Message:
Stonor - I accidently erased that once -- there was more to it ---do you have the complete version??? Oh, pls, say you do - I was so sorry I deleted it.
If you do, would you post it or any one reading this?
Thanks for at least this much,tho. :)
Elaine B.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 19:12:32 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Elaine
Subject: Dr. Laura revisited - for your files
Message:
Hi Elaine!

Sorry, that's all I got in the e-mail forwarded by my friend, and I don't think he edited anything out of it. I'll e-mail him and ask, though. I wondered about the apparent lack of ending though. Glad you enjoyed it - I always worry about what I post here (not that I post anywhere else - I'm still a neophyte at this forum stuff).

Ancient 'truths/laws' can be tricky, can't they?

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:32:44 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Dr. Laura revisited - for your files
Message:
'ancient truths/laws can be tricky' and sticky--ain't it the truth? Robyn emailed that to me and I thought it was so good. Dr. Laura is at her best (IMO) when she sticks to gving parenting advice (which I think is right on most of the time). When she starts talkign about God's laws and obeying them, and gets so complusive about it all, she frankly scares me. It's GOD THE FATHER amplified a zillion times in her brain as some sort of scary superego! She is an absolutist and everything is black and white in her world.

But as I have said here before I do agree with much of her advice about kids and parenting. Too bad there is such good in her message and such bad--clearly she misses the boat in a way harmful and destructive way with her attitudes about gays. She seems to be more into the letter of the law than the spirit of the law. I am not against religion really, because I know alot of religious people who seems to get more and more loving and open the more their 'understanding' (there's a loaded word for this crowd) of God grows. And then other people seem to get more closed-minded and rigid the more they get with their 'religion.' Maybe it's that old distinction between 'religious' and 'spiritual.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 17:04:34 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Come on, Helen
Message:
Helen,

If I may say so, to say that Dr. Laura is homophobic, rigidly fundamentalise, but because she says some correct things it's okay, kind of misses the point. Frankly, I think that makes it quite a bit worse. Hitler said some good things too. It's the mixture of seeming reasonableness and common sense, combined with religious rigidity, prejudice and blantant bigotry that really makes her so destructive. For example, the suicide rate among gay teenagers is over six times what it is for straigh teenagers. How much do you think that might be increased listening to the 'parental' Dr. Laura say that these kids are defective deviants? Do you think this is offest by the fact that she sometimes says things you agree with?

Joe

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 20:19:01 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Come on, Helen
Message:
Joe
As I recall, you asked me why I thought Dr. Laura had value a while ago. I wrote you a long well-thought out post which you never read. I offered to fax it to you and received no response. I don't think that was fair.

Your thoughts on Dr. Laura really made me think alot about her, and about how harmful she can be, and I agreed with you on those points.

One of the things I have learned to do, is to separate what is good and what is bad in the message of a public personality, especially a public personality who is so sensationalistic like Dr. Laura. To write Dr. laura off as a potential 'Hitler' would not be accurate in my opinion. I am a parent, and a parent educator, and as I explained in my long response to you, she has many good things to say on that topic. I don't worship Dr. Laura, or follow her in any way. I am not a 'fan'. But on the topic of parenting, and putting kids first, I beleive she is right on.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 21:25:35 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Come on, Helen
Message:
Well Helen, I couldn't disagree more and your current post just restates it. She says some good things, but combined with the potential destruction she causes, the overall result is negative, in my opinion, and rather than 'seeing the good' I would think a consumer of media might try to push for someone who could give the good advice without being a bigot.

Helen, wouldn't it be better to demand someone on the public media who could give the good advice you like, without the awful, destructive stuff as well? The problem is, by your selecive non-judgment, you give Dr. Laura cover to do what she does, I don't think you should a avoid that moral judgment.

I disagree with the analogy with Hitler is that far fetched. What about the suicides of gay kids, Helen, for example? What about them? Do you think the advice you agree with that you get from the dominatrix is worth that? Are you really comfortable with that?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 22:13:25 (GMT)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Dr. Laura revisited - for your files
Message:
I think that this is the complete version; it is the only version I've seen floating about, and I have received it from three different sources so far.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 21:43:00 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Michael
Subject: helen, may I speak?
Message:
Putting kids first is a message some parents need to hear, that's not in question. But there are lots of folks who promulgate this and most people already know it.

She's merely caught hold of a popular idea with which few people would argue, and used that as a spring board for her hate campaign.

Did you read the Vanity Fair article about her and what her colleagues think of her?

She is a bitter, back stabbing, hypocrite who is fueled by hatred and the desire for power over people. She is abusive, and does far more damage than good,in my opinion. She has almost a sado-masochistic relationship with her callers.

Why not post that fax you sent to Joe?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 23:35:23 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen and gerry
Subject: helen, may I add to his comments?
Message:
Hi Helen,

My sister is a parent and likes Dr. Laura too, but as much as I love and truly respect my sister and know that her motivations are entirely intelligently and awarely honourable, I believe, IMO, that there is a problem with Dr. Laura. I read (and clipped) a brief newspaper article that has shocked me for a long time, and I think that Joe is referring to the same study - far too many young people are killing themselves because they are not being accepted for who they ARE. In fact, one of my childhood friends killed himself while he was in college by jumping in a metro (subway) station on New Years Eve. I know what 'really' happened because he was supposed to have been at my party (he was (adopted) Catholic, and for the uninitiated like myself, that means that if you kill your SELF, you cannot have a sanctified buriel, or something like that, or worse.

Today there are so many fine lines requiring consideration and independent thinking on the part of each individual, that it is a great human burden today to decide to realize that this burden, in each individual context, can only be our own. By turning to a 'religious' and other 'experts' for answers, we might feel perhaps a false sense of security in having found the 'right' choice/answer - but each 'right' decision, IMO, needs to be made within and through each individual's own context and volition.

This discussion is making me think of the discussion below (or above) about how m isn't all bad . . . that's not the point! In fact, that may be how most 'evil' is spread - ambiguously (IMhO).

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 01:56:52 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: helen, may I add to his comments?
Message:
Dear Stonor and all,
Well this is a thought provoking thread! The reason I relplied to your post Stonor, is:

'Today there are so many fine lines requiring consideration and independent thinking on the part of each individual, that it is a great human burden today to decide to realize that this burden, in each individual context, can only be our own. By turning to a 'religious' and other 'experts' for answers, we might feel perhaps a false sense of security in having found the 'right' choice/answer - but each 'right' decision, IMO, needs to be made within and through each individual's own context and volition.'

I believe in this, I don't have enough of it myself, have been working on it since high school. My oldest daughter has it and went to a college that fosters this, rare, I believe. It is an excellet school academically but really put a lot of emphasis on the students thinking, doing, questioning authority for themselves. To have the strength of sense of self to first of all know and second, follow your heart, mind, best intrest while also keeping in mind the larger picture, meaning not to be self centered and uncaring to humanity.
I don't know squat about Dr. Laura and I hope I never do. I wonder if she does have valuable things to say about kids, if she is stuffing her foot in it because she is a bigoted hate monger, seems you all agree on that, so any good she has to say may well be disregarded or looked at in a bad light because over all she is very negative. Very odd, not knowing anything about her, that she could be so right on in one area, how did her fuckupedness not seep into her views on raising children? I know you are aware on this issue Helen and I trust your opinion of her opinion on this issue but I think I'd want to scream at her that those gay teens are hurt by her bigotry and doesn't her good view of dealing with kids allow for those kids or others that fit into other groups she hates.
Another side of this is that for someone strong in their selves can pick what is valuable, or what makes sense to them and trash the rest. I know I have done with with religions that I have run across over the years.
I really shouldn't say anything here not knowing her at all and knowing I do care and respect both Helen and Joe but apparently I did anyway.
Love,
Robyn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 00:07:13 (GMT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: I am so sorry about your friend
Message:
Stonor: I just read your post about your friend who killed himself. It sounds as though he was on his way to see you on New Year's Eve. I am so sorry to read of this event. I am sure that you must wonder what you could have done to keep it from happening.

I wholeheartedly agree with you that people like Dr. Laura try to give quick, one size fits all, solutions to very difficult problems. It is never that simple, as M and Dr. L would lead people to believe. Finding the way to peace in each of our hearts is a singular journey that we each need to traverse in our own personal way. When the path we've chosen is denigrated or belittled, it undermines our sense of ourselves. When M tells us his way is right, and should be embraced over and above what our hearts tell us, he does us a disservice. As does Dr. L. However difficult our path to ourselves is, we're better off listening to our own hearts. When we substitute the judgment of others, that's when potentially fatal doubt sets in.

Having been raised Catholic, I fully understand the weight of your friend's decision. My heart and prayers go out to you and to his family.

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 01:16:43 (GMT)
From: helen
Email: None
To: jw, stonor, gerry
Subject: Joe/Stonor/Gerry
Message:
I would be glad to post what I wrote JW but I am not sure how to do it. I printed out a copy of my post, maybe I could scan it? It's long since gone since it was off topic. I do not feel like retyping it because it is very long, almost article length.

Joe do you think I am like the followers of Minister Farakhan who think it's okay that he perpetuates hate speech about Jews because of the 'good' that Farakhan does? I have thought about this alot, beleive me. I do think that Dr. Laura's attitude about gays is completely morally wrong, and I think it sucks if it adds to the already horrible societal attitudes that affect gay teen suicides. Do you think I am some kind of right wing Dr. Laura fanatic or something? You think I didn't know about the rate of gay teen suicide?

Gerry--yes I read the vanity Fair article about her--and I have read some of her books. I don't generally believe gossipy articles about celebrities, although naturally I, like everyone, likes to see a know-it-all like Dr. L get knocked down off her throne.

her ideas about parenting, Gerry, are NOT commonly beleived in our culture at ALL IMO. There are very few advocates for children out there. The dilemma is, as Joe has stated, the good message is mixed with bad, that is a valid point. As I pointed out earlier, on two different occasions, JW (one of which you did not take the time to read, which does make me angry, BTW) you have given me alot to think about.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 23:14:04 (GMT)
From: Joe
Email: None
To: helen
Subject: Joe/Stonor/Gerry
Message:
Helen, what I am saying is I think you are compartmentalizing and can't see the forest for the trees. By being supposedly non-judgmental, you let Dr. Laura get away with what she does. As I said, and as you continue to ignore, it isn't a matter of saying whether Dr. Laura might have some positive qualities, it is a matter of saying what kind of qualities should a person given that much power and influence over millions of people have? That person should not preach hate. She should not be a bigot. She should not preach hatred about people which has been scientifically proven to be false and contribute to the idea that certain people are just deviants. That just isn't acceptable, it isn't just that it's an opinion she has that you don't agree with. She should be condemned, rather than having people like you looking for a silver lining in all her destructive behavior. That's what I am saying.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 01:46:26 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Joe
Subject: Joe/Stonor/Gerry
Message:
Joe,
Once again, here I go, I feel like you aren't listening to me and it's really frustrating!! It isn't out of being non-judgemental or out of 'looking for a silver lining' that I agree with what Dr. Laura says about kids!! I just think she is RIGHT about what she says about kids. When did you ever get the idea that I was non-judgmental? or that I tried to see the silver lining in everything or everyone? That is insulting. We just are going to have to agree to disagree on this. I am too passionate about these kids' issues to completely write Dr. Laura off, and you told me you listened to her for a week and see no good at all in her message. So you already made up your mind.

As far as letting her get away with stuff, I DON't let her get away with her bigotry. Where do you get off thinking that I would anyway? I am very outspoken about Dr. Laura's point of view on homosexuality, I have followed her thinking on the subject very carefully so that I would know exactly what she is talkign about. It isn't non-judgment I am striving for here, it is a level of objectivity. When talking about the abortion issue also, I strive for the same thing. That would be another very brittle discussion between us, I am sure.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 15:24:36 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: helen
Subject: Joe/Stonor/Gerry
Message:
On second thought, you are correct, there is not nearly enough emphasis in our society on putting children first, and I agree that children need full time moms if at all possible. Sometimes it isn't, and Sleshinger (spelled wrong but I don't care) does a great job at making working mothers feel inadequate and guilty.

My guess is that THIS is her main motivation in promoting children. She herself is a working mother and must spend huge amounts of time preparing for her show, doing her show, and writing her poison pen books. So she is highly hypocritical in this area as well.

I thought the Vanity Fair piece was necessary and well done. Call it gossip but she is a very public figure with a lot of influence. People deserve to know where she's coming from and what kind of person from whom they are taking advice. Just like they should approach any authority figure, our dear ex-guru as a perfect example.

She's a nut case Helen, plain and simple. She is hurting a lot of people and infecting society with her illness. She's anti-sex, anti-freedom of religion, and basically, anti-people.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 23:09:48 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Dr. Laura--my last post on the subject
Message:
because this discussion is giving me a gizink in my ganektagazoink. Yes Dr. laura is a nut case--no doubt about that. Dr. Laura is not Hitler, though, I don't see her saying that homosexuals should die. She says that if they have sex with one another, they sin against God (which I totally disagree with) and she says that they are mistakes of nature because they cannot reproduce (which is also inflammatory and mean-spirited).

Yes, Dr. laura is very extremist about working women, and about day care but I do not allow her her to make me feel guilty for being a working mother, and since I am a child care specialist and very conversant about child care research, I don't let her make me feel guilty about day care either. But I sure have done my homework on that score, and guess what, most day care in the U.S. is really poor quality--that is no newsflash. Dr. Laura makes millions doing what she does, so she is in a very privileged position, workign part-time as she does and being the breadwinner for her family (which she is).

As I said before, I listen to Dr. Laura when it happens to be on, and I listen to what she has to say on the issues of children and parenting. Do you want me to lie and say I write off everything she has to say because she expresses bigotry about homosexuals and has very 'fundamentalist' ideas? I don't get this. Is this how we solve problems and convince people that they are wrong, by hating them and writing off everything they say that may have some validity???? I think Dr. Laura's bigotry IS being challenged in a big way where it hurts, because of Paramount losing potential advertising revenue. Gays and lesbians are too angry at her and too well organized to let her go unchallenged, and that is a GOOD thing.

Despite being a nut case, she is saying some things about CHILDREN that need to be said, IMO. I wish that we could carve all her bigotry/nutty stuff out of her and just leave the good stuff. And I wish other folks would step up and express leadership about family issues, children, and parenting with the GUTS she has and without the nuttiness.Unfortunately, I think the Farrakhan parallel that I made is a good one, 50% of what he says is really good stuff, the other 50% is nutty nonsense, but since there are too few charismatic, dynamic, outspoken black leaders people pay attention to him. But guess what? If you talk to most black folks about Minister Farakhan ( and I talk to alot of black folks) they say exactly what I just said--'I don't like his hate speech, but some of what he has to say about blacks empowering themselves economically has merit.' Does his hate speech cancel out the good stuff he has to say? Do ya think maybe people are smart enough to separate the wheat from the chaff?? (or however that metaphor goes)
Do ya think maybe people can use their brains to figure it out???

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 01:30:14 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, thanks for the discussion, I really enjoyed
Message:
it. And I think the world of you. Of course, I had to turn Dr. Slashinger on today. She told one person to invite her obnoxious brother to her party for the sake of family peace. Anything for family, you do, she said. This from a women who hasn't talked to her sister or mother in decades. Sheesh !!!

Another caller, a guy, said he started lsitening to her for the entertainment value but now, after listening for over a year he was uh, uh, (he was searching for the word--I was shouting out loud 'BRAINWASHED, BUDDIE, SAY IT') he was now completely won over to her point of view. So I guess that would have to include homophobia.

Do ya think maybe people are smart enough to separate the wheat from the chaff?? (or however that metaphor goes)
Do ya think maybe people can use their brains to figure it out???

I would really like to think this was the case. But unfortunately I must weigh in on the 'no' side. I think far too many people let others think for them.

Anyway, thanks again.

All the best,

gerry the terrible

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 01:51:53 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Helen, thanks for the discussion, I really enjoyed
Message:
WEll I listened to her today also and thought her advice to that woman was right on. And how do you really know for sure that Dr. laura is estranged from her family members? Because you read it in 'Vanity Fair'? Now, I enjoy a good gossipy read just as much as anyone but come one, how much do you really know abotu a celebrity? I'll grant ya, Dr. laura probably is a mean old bitch, but I think some of her advice is right on.

I appreciated your saying you think the world of me, Gerry, but I am taking a little breakie-poo from the forum. It's too addictive and frustrating and I want to get back to work on my romance novel! Steamy love scenes! Nude sunbathing! Sexual frustration and fulfillment! Ooooh la la! You want to be a reader? It's about a republican and a liberal who fall in love--not a very sexy theme is it?? I have to lend it some spice....any ideas anyone?.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 18:13:59 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, thanks for the discussion, I really enjoyed
Message:
Dear Helen,
You probably won't see this but...
'Nude sunbathing!'
Now where did you get that idea! :)
Love,
Robyn the bronze :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 20:35:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: from YOU Miss Anything Goes!! (:
Message:
hi there cutie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 02:34:59 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, thanks for the discussion, I really enjoyed
Message:
Hi Helen,

I think this thread has gone far enough and at this point, if we respect and value each individual's decision, clearly yours should be respected as well. My sister told me she was listening to Dr. Laura on her way to pick up something from me - do I care? I'm not too concerned about the individuals, it's her large audience that concerns me. Enough of this discussion, I agree.

Wish I could help you out with some steamy ideas, but I haven't had any myself lately. Five years without romance in my life - and no, I haven't really been looking, I've been far too busy with other things. And I don't read romance novels - I don't really 'get' them. God I'm feeling inadequate with that request for ideas. Generally politics don't interest me either. Hmmmmm.

I picked and ate my first strawberry today. How's that for hot news!

I just wanted to say hello, Helen. I enjoy your posts and wish you all the best on your real writing project. Maybe I will read a romance novel sometime in the future, but I hope I don't have to read Dawkin's first!

Take care,

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 20:33:36 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: strawberries and romance
Message:
Hi Stonor,
I gave Katie a really funny article from the Hungry Mind Journal ( a VERY good publication outof the midwest, and VERY liberal by the way--see, I read and listen to everything and then make my own opinions) about a romance convention. I am trying to write one because they have a certain formula and I need that at my level of development as a fiction writer. I tried writing a young adult novel but my theme was way too ambitious for my skill level so it is sitting in a box in my basement.

I even bought a book 'You can write a romance!!'

Dawkins is not bad at all. I read one that Jim suggested. It was interesting actually. So ya ate yer first strawberry? From your garden? Where are you if you don't mind me asking? Enjoy...

DOn't know if I am really going to take abreak from here or not...it's too addictive. As Nigel says 'I've quit quitting the forum'

Take care

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 15, 2000 at 03:18:44 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: strawberries but no romance ;-(
Message:
Hi Helen,

I don't think I ever suggested you don't think for yourself, sorry if I gave you that impression at all.

Sounds like you've iven yourself and interesting project. I've tried to imagine writing a novel, and it must be a very demanding process. What other kinds of writing have you done?

I'm sure Dawkins is interesting, but I did go to his website and check him out a bit, and I have come across articles where he argues with Gould. I just get tired of the whole mode of posturing about who has the best theory. Reminds me of reading that classical discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I guess it's a matter of personal priorities, but that kind of thing is not neccessarily high on my list. We'll see when I finally track a copy of 'The Blind Watchmaker' down.

I live in Montreal, and it's been a BAD spring. I think you're down in Washington DC - how is your weather (and not a bus stop in sight ;-) Yes, the strawberry was from by own garden. I've got to start thinking about cooking and freezing strawberries and rhubarb now, along with the gardening - and it's only the beginning!

Nude sunbathing? - not in my backyard!

Stonor, the pasty white so far.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 15, 2000 at 18:04:22 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: strawberries but no romance ;-(
Message:
Writing a novel is a demanding process. That's why I am writing by formula for starters (kinda like paint-by-numbers).

I didn't mean to imply that you implied that I didn't think for myself. That was just a sidebar to a thought. Internet communication is lacking in something, like maybe FACES and VOICES for one.

The strawberries are very early this year down here, I just found out from my sister. We had a cold spring, things are heating up now, it is generally very hot and humid here in the summer. Montreal must be a great place to live, despite your horrible spring this year, I imagine it's much much better quality if life than the U.S. Just my impressions.

I know what you mean about academic theories, and I don't have much passion for the subject matter but Dawkin's book, I think it was called River to Eden, was good. I'd rather read a novel though. Reading Octavia Butler's 'Parable of the SOwer' now--what a writer she is!
Gotta run--happy strawberries and rhubarb (love rhubarb pie--yum yum)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Jun 16, 2000 at 02:41:39 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: strawberries but no romance ;-(
Message:
Hi Helen,

Loved this: Internet communication is lacking in something, like maybe FACES and VOICES for one.

Quite funny the impression more than one person had of me until seeing my picture! But at the same time, I'm surprised by how much of a person can come through their posts.

Not sure about the quality of life at times here in Montreal lately, but . . . there seem to be plusses and minuses no matter where you live!

By academic theories, I meant as opposed to facts. And I haven't heard of Octavia Butler, but I'll make a note. Maybe I'll get a chance to do some summer reading, who knows.

Good talking with you, and happy writing - sounds like it's going to be an interesting process!

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Jun 15, 2000 at 03:26:20 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: PS I should've read the posts below because you
Message:
I should've read the posts below because you answered my question about what other writing you do.

Yikes it's late!!

Stonor

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 18:17:21 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Helen, thanks for the discussion, I really enjoyed
Message:
Dear Stonor,
I don't 'get' romance novels either. :) Maybe because I haven't read Dawkins! ;)
Steamy ideas, I've got but well beyond the romance novel level. :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 02:22:39 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: I can see you are personally invested in this...
Message:
so I'll end it here, too. And yeah, I suppose her advice to the lady with the obnoxious brother was ok. Then she went on to say that every family has a jerk in it, and this is simple not true. Really, how would she know if it were true? Where does she get this stuff and more importantly what does she get out of saying it? That she sometimes gives some good advice really isn't the issue.

About her estamgement from her own family: Well, Vanity Fair isn't exactly the Weekly World News, now is it? She doesn't deny it. Shall I prove it to you?

I'd love to be a reader of your novel. And I like to write. Are you serious about having some help?

And watch the 'old' stuff there, toots. She ain't that much older than we are.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 20:55:29 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: I can see you are personally invested in this...
Message:
I am NOT invested in being politically correct that is for sure. But I certainly wouldn't pay money to see either Dr. L or Farakhan or buy her books (but I would take them out of the library).

I notice you couldn't stay away from listening to her--why? For entertainment value? I turn her off alot of times because she gets on my nerves.

As far as wanting readers for my book, why not? You wanna read it so far? I wish I could get serious about writing fiction. I have had curricula, booklets, and articles published --and I am editing for a living now, but i sure would like to do something more creative. I sure am not going to get to it by sitting on my bum staring at the forum, am I?

What kinds of writing are you into? Hey a thought just occurred to me-- you and JW actually agreed on something in this thread--your mutual disdain or Dr. L. Now that's a 'Christmas miracle' (Flag day miracle?) now ain't it????? I gather you are more of a libertarian than a conservative? I don't know what I am anymore. I was raised by such a liberal dad that I have forced myself to listen to conservative ideas and not just write them off in a kneejerk way.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 21:24:26 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: glyng@techline.com
To: Helen
Subject: Helen, you provocative thing, you.
Message:
I guess that was a poor choice of words, 'personally invested.' I meant your involvement with, and strong advocacy for children.

When I first heard her a few years ago, I thought some of what she said was OK, then I realized it was mostly my catholic conditioning that was responding to her black and white world view, what's the german word? weltansicht?

Anyway, I soon found her oppresive and seriously lacking in humor. And we are talking a couple of months, maybe, at the most. I have no desire to listen to her and only turned her on because we were discussing her. It really isn't that I can't resist listening to her, I find her quite repellent really, and she brings back old and painful memories of abuse at the hands of my fundamentalist catholic sociopathic father, so there you have it.

I, like you, have given up trying to fit a political label, but libertarian is probably closer to my leanings than conservative, you are right.

This really isn't the first issue with which thing I've agreed with JW. He and I resonate on a lot more issues than this. I went through a 'conservative' faze (sic) and now I've become re-radicalized, mostly from reading diverse sources on the internet.

I like writing short stories, vignettes, if you will. Sometimes ya just get into the zone. Inspiration is a real thing and one word someone writes or says can set off an entire scenario in my mind. Then comes the perspiration part. It seems rgardless of the temperature, sweat just rolls down my arms when I write, but that's more than you probably wanted to know.

I'd really like to read some of your fiction and my e-mail is included in this post. No obligation, of course and no biggie if you don't.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 22:58:07 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gerry--you're provacateur (sp) yourself
Message:
'fundamentalist sociopathic father'--yikes, sounds really scary. I grew up liberal Unitarian where you practially have to go into the closet if you are in any ways traditional or even beleive in God, nowadays.

So maybe that is why I don't freeze up and start puking when I hear Dr. Laura, well some of the time anyway. I didn't learn anything about morals growing up--ZIP!! Ya know, in Sunday school in high school we had a class called 'About Your Sexuality' and our teachers showed us porno flicks--well, sepia-toned movies of people screwing! That's how liberal my religious education was! And at the suburban church my family started going to in the fabulous 70's (I really missed the more conservative one we went to in the inner city of DC) there was alot of 'spouse-swapping' going on! One local church had a 'quadrocouple'--no joke--four people all married to one another! Their checkbook checks had all four names on them--ha ha! So--maybe it's a natural reaction that I would get a tad more conservative,,,, who knows?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:35:29 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is Rennie Davis still a premie?
Message:
He looked so spaced out on Lord of the Universe. Does anyone know what ever happened to the guy?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:31:46 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Re:Is Rennie Davis still a premie?
Message:
Rennie stopped being a premie many years ago, and although he was contacted and invited to make a statement here, he did not do so. (I think it all went sour for him when he booked a hotel room for Guru Maharaji and he noticed that the sink faucets in the bathroom were not in the shape of swans, but little gargoyles).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 11:50:57 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: The Master Bedroom
Message:
Hi,

Maybe it's the hotel suite that Rennee was enthusing over on the Lord of the Universe video because it was called, most cosmically, 'The Master Suite'.

Maybe Rennee is still embarassed by being on film saying, 'The Millenium Programme is the greatest event in history since the creation of the Universe'.

Who can blame him for keeping his head down?

Anth the also embarassed.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:51:06 (GMT)
From: blood
Email: None
To: webmasters
Subject: Webmasters involved in copyright infringe... issue
Message:
MCI Worldcom Copyright Page

scroll down on page to see how MCI provides information about claims and counter claims.

BEWARE: THERE ARE SUBSTANTIAL PENALTIES for FALSE CLAIMS

of course this doesn't exactly apply and it suggests gaining legal expertise....but it does say that there are penalties for filing false claims. Something more to be researched

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:34:30 (GMT)
From: Wish
Email: None
To: all esp. Forum Admin.
Subject: Moderated Forum
Message:
SOME posts written here are real gems and very helpful to anyone reading them, but they are far in between. This place shoud be supportive of exes and aspirants, even premies for that matter. Most of the time reading this forum is like sifting through garbage. It sounds like a bunch of idle teenagers standing on a corner having nothing intelligent to say so they just try to be witty, funny, insult or bitch at each other. I find it a disgrace. Such nonsense should be posted somewhere else like 'anything goes' if it still exists. Many are trying to attract attention to ex-premie.org by contacting the media, and sending messages to everyone that might be interested. I hope whoever comes over skips the forum section. I mean it's enough for premies and aspirants to continue along at rawat's feet. And to think that all of this is being archived, what a waste. If you are pissed at reading this and lighting up your flame thrower, you might just be the kind of person am refering to. The others know what I mean. So, dear forum administrator my wish is to have the forum moderated. Am against censorship, but if a bit of it can clear up the garbage so be it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 20:02:15 (GMT)
From: Forum admin
Email: None
To: Wish
Subject: Moderated Forum
Message:
Your suggestion has been discussed many times before and the consensus up till now seems to be 'let's keep things as they are'.

Some garbage posts are of necessity deleted, as are posts which contravene the posting guidelines outined in the Forum Intro. Drawing the line is never straighforward but the ex-premies here seem to prefer to maximise freedom of expression rather than go for a tightly-controlled environment.

And mightn't a 'moderated', ie. censored, forum end up an ugly reflection of enjoyinglife.org's 'Expressions' section? (Though others here might agree with your viewpoint.) Anyway, serious comments regarding the running of this forum may be directed to 'Email Admin'. See link at the top of the page.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 00:40:21 (GMT)
From: U Thunt
Email: U C???
To: Forum admin
Subject: EX,S ARE NEVER CHALLENGED!
Message:
That is pure bullshit. The only people ever edited here deliberately are so-called 'premies'. The rest have pure license to say and do as they please. For anyone not in either 'camp'
,hey, there is nowhere to go here! At least be upfront about your bias...........
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 10:22:45 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: U Thunt
Subject: EX,S ARE NEVER CHALLENGED????
Message:
The only people ever edited here deliberately are so-called 'premies'.

Sorry U, not quite true. I think most people would agree here that I am considered one of the more 'extreme' of the 'premies' and 'Maharaji apologists' that contributes on this site, but I can say (in all fairness to the Forum Administration) that while I have been harrassed, abused, cursed, challenged and argued with I have NEVER been edited or banned.

The rest have pure license to say and do as they please.

Again untrue, it is also well known that some of the ex's HAVE been banned and edited(?), ask Jim, he knows, it's happened to him.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 02:09:45 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: EX,S ARE NEVER CHALLENGED????
Message:
what were the reasons for Jim previous banishment?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 14:33:09 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: mel
Subject: Ya! For the records sake. why can't you answer?
Message:
is it that sordid? did he threaten someone?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 23:05:37 (GMT)
From: GOSsipper
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Ya! For the records sake. why can't you answer?
Message:
Get lost!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 23:25:21 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: GOSsipper
Subject: Here we have isolated the x factor in 'mob ment...
Message:
Success! Stop the presses! Here we have isolated the x-factor in 'mob mentality' aka 'safety ina the numbers', 'bah syndrome'.

GOSSIPer wrote only:
'Get lost!'

Does this posteur mean to frighten me or make me laugh?
Is he or she not exhibiting that 'back me up ya'll' thought process?

It looks so sad there all by itself. (and more sad is the picture of GOSsipper and ET in long dialogue thread after thread. while even more sad is the NY PBA president saying (verbatim now!) 'We cannot have songwriters come out and write songs that are gonna cause a civil disturbance.' -John Puglissi PBA prsident (WABC Eyewitness News 6/12/00.)

Just as sad is the way THAT doesn't become THE story.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 15:05:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: OK! This year's recipient of the Selene Award ...
Message:
Sorry, raina, it's not abotu you. It wasn't about you and no, it
's not about you. If you're interested it's all there somewhere (I think). The whoel sordid mess. You weren't around and I'm not at all inclined to explain anything to you. You're a freak. You freak on people too easy. Back in your chair. Please, raina, back in your chair, now!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 22:56:33 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'll make you a deal
Message:
If you can show me where in my post you were lead to believe that i ever thought it was about me...(name your price here).

because I figured it was something that happened (worse than all the other shit I've seen you waste good electricity on) months or even years ago....way b4 mememe...not much of a listener are you Jim.

I AM THE EXCORCIST apparently?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 01:51:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Wow, what do you know? Raina misunderstood me
Message:
Sorry, raina, must be me, I'm sure, but you got me all wrong again. I wasn't referring to the reason I was blocked, I was referring to something else. Forget it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 01:41:22 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: raina
Subject: Hi Raina
Message:
Hi Raina -
(Typing with my burned-out shoulder, so be patient...)

Yes, Jim was blocked. No, I don't want to discuss the whole sorry episode on the forum again. If you e-mail me, I'll tell you - that is, if you really want to know. But I can tell you here that he did not threaten anyone, post under anyone else's screen name, spam the forum, and it wasn't any worse than anything you've seen Jim post here.

Suffice it to say that NONE of the people here involved in the matter distinguished themselves in that affair (Jim left out 'Mary') - and that it was quite disillusioning to me personally.

Take care -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 16:33:42 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: yeah it's all about YOU
Message:
funny thing about that sordid mess. You leaped into the middle of it the way you do everything around here. Oh I'm sure your buddy whined and sniveled and asked you to. That isn't the point. Selective memory is so wonderful. Especially Jim Hellers. YOU Jim make something about me when you attack me and all your snide sarcastic comments will never scare me away from that.
The Selene Award remark is just fine with me and I'm happy to accept it. Thank you. It equates in my mind to I don't take shit from you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 23:08:54 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: yeah it's all about HIM
Message:
In Spanish ('Jim' is pronounced 'him' right?)

It's so weird...you know how you picture the face of someone in your mind that you've never met? Well I used to picture Jim as a greasy old man. But now i see this cranky little boy.

I've just invented a new word/term! I'll share it with you because it's just happened! (spamish! Get it? It would refer to typical spam-sell lingo.)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 10:15:15 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Jim, maybe you or the FA should answer this..
Message:
...to set the record straight!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 13:50:07 (GMT)
From: Forum admin
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Different forum, different admin
Message:
If you are not aware, Mel, the 'forum admin' is a rotating watch of volunteers that has changed hands several times. Nobody currently acting in that capacity was doing the admin when Jim was blocked, so have no greater knowledge of the circumstances than you or anyone else who was around at that time. It is all in the archives somewhere - which you are free to browse if you think the matter is sufficiently important.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 15:09:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Well, well, Mel with his excellent advice again
Message:
'Set the record straight' my ass. What record? Listen, idiot, the only record that matters here is your cult leader's and that's the one you can't face honestly. As for me, sure, you want to trot out the whole confused and ultimately not all that interesting story of Drek, Joey, me, Katie and Brian, help yourself. But why bother besides to do a little shit-disturbing? It's none of raina's business anyway. But if you want to tell her, go for it. Cause some shit, Mel. I know that's what you really want to do. Go for it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 10:16:09 (GMT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well, well, Mel with his excellent advice again
Message:
Don't worry Jim,

I'm not really interested in bringing up the matter or causing you excessive grief over it, I was merely pointing out the error of U's generalisations.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 15:32:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And before you call me a hypocrite ...
Message:
let me save you the trouble. Okay, one moment I'm telling you not to drudge up the past brouhaha over Joey's allegations against Drek and the next I'm doing jsut that, pushing Joey's face in it in a post below. Okay, I'm an idiot. Sue me. I still say that if you bring it up it's only for a little, what's that German word? Schaudenfraude?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 22:35:09 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, let's meet for Afternoon Tea at the Empress
Message:
Dearest Jim,

It's starting all over again - the whole sordid mess. They are all converging on me again, all of my accusers with their poisonous lies. In fact, Jim, are we not approaching the One Year Anniversary when I resigned in shame?

This time they've managed to take away my beloved website.

It's only a matter of time until they come to take me away again. It is about me, Jim. Please don't minimize this for my sake.

Thank you, Jim. As you know I have always depended on the kindness of strangers.

P.S. I hope that Ms. L. can attend tea with us?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Jun 14, 2000 at 05:01:50 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: empress theatre hot porno shop in tucson
Message:
hahaha
I think the guru may have stopped there.
I have NO facts. only speculation based on the assumtion that
they did a major revuv of the place before the Tuccson event.
Talk about nuts. (I mean this post of course this is a joke)
lighen up Rog.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:42:47 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Wish
Subject: Moderated Forum
Message:
Hi Wish,

Why don't you tell us something about yourself? Are you an ex, a premie or an aspirant?

I suggest that rather than just criticise , it would be more constructive to express your own very articulate, intelligent and moderate opinions about M & K . Feel free to , I'm listening.

I enjoy many aspects of this forum. Even the fights and the humour. I would hate to see official ' moderating'. Usually when someone gets a little too off centre the responses tend to regulate that.

Anyway, nice to hear from you and look forward to hearing more.

Hal

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 17:37:40 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: None
To: Wish
Subject: Sifting Through!
Message:
To moderate..hmmm, not sure. I find a mix of bright informative people here, .......then there's the social misfits. (like the guy above)It's about 20/80. Thanks for your thoughts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:14:38 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: social misfit--I resemble that remark!
Message:
Dave? Sir Dave?

Really Dave, who is the one to sift through and separate the wheat from the chaff? You? Wish? Who?

And the 20/80 ratio: is that 20% bright and 80% social misfits like myself? Have you done a statistical analysis?

Are you sure this isn't the Funboy?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 17:39:31 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: social misfit--I resemble that remark!
Message:
Yo Curly!

Listen up!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 17:47:35 (GMT)
From: Moe
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Remind me to murder you later...
Message:
Thanks for the link ! LOL
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:24:14 (GMT)
From: (Sir) David
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Dave's not me, I am (Sir) David if you please (nt)
Message:
a
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:48:23 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Wish
Subject: Fuck you, gutless wonder hiding behind a fake name
Message:
Not pissed at all. Think it's funny...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:33:05 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: gErRy, Wish
Subject: Re: Forum Moderators
Message:
06.12.00
I was watching the Lord of the Universe video, and can see how many of the premies on that tape would present like dizzy, absent minded teenagers. The certainly seem so 'white' 'middle class' and 'confused', that it is even as comedy, in some ways, but also tragic. I didn't know about Divine Light Mission, as I learned of Mr. M. in his new 'professional image'. Yet, I did see a Visions tape made in India, and you guessed it, he's more like the Divine Light Mission image of a guru, dressed all traditional speaking Hindi.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 15:59:03 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Bird dog
Message:
An optimist sees the best in the world, while a pessimist sees only the worst. An optimist finds the positive in the negative, and a pessimist can only find the negative in the positive.

For example, an avid duck hunter was in the market for a new bird dog. His search ended when he found a dog that could actually walk on water to retrieve a duck. Shocked by his find, he was sure none of his friends would ever believe him.

He decided to try to break the news to a friend of his, a pessimist by nature, and invited him to hunt with him and his new dog.

As they waited by the shore, a flock of ducks flew by. they fired, and a duck fell. The dog responded and jumped into the water. The dog, however, did not sink but instead walked across the water to retrieve the bird, never getting more than his paws wet. This continued all day long; each time a duck fell, the dog walked across the surface of the water to retrieve it.

The pessimist watched carefully, saw everything, but did not say a single word.

On the drive home the hunter asked his friend, 'Did you notice anything unusual about my new dog?'

'I sure did,' responded the pessimist. 'He can't swim.'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 04:05:14 (GMT)
From: bill dog
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Bird dog
Message:
Thanks for the laugh Mili:)

Seeing the best is good advice but for some reason I was just reminded that if the early american colonists just looked at the kings intrusion optomistically, they would have never gotten up the gumption to decide they were pessimistic about the chances of the kings EVER really giving up thier greedy domination and power tripping. The 'devil knows not for whom he works' kind of situation perhaps.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 08:45:27 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Bird dog
Message:
good tale Mili. I agree. I'm definately an optimist. When someone mentions anything about duck hunters instead of thinking about the ducks tragic plight I imagine the hunter shooting himself in the foot.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 06:35:14 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: FA
Subject: FA? Could you please confirm by comparing IP nos.
Message:
once and for all? That I am not the 'ET' (or anyone else for that matter) as 'Jim' is trying to create the impression that I posted the M as Hitler thread etc?

He deserves to have his credibility exposed for that sort of garbage (and once even posting MY NAME(!!!) in the 'From' field not too long ago.)

It's only fair.

It's true...I've lost interest in even bothering to read on.....it's just not even worth it........and he calls that 'flushing out a rat'! ?! it's just too damn stoopid.........my whole point in replying to that post originally was to make that point.....the irony that Jim would spend SO much time trying to embarrass me (as if he could or i am)! but he'll be laissez-faire about the truly DUMBEST posts....(The Hitler one....)

for the forum's sake more than mine, it would be worth it. I demand Justice!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 21:07:09 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Don't be ridiculous
Message:
The sarcasm was too obvious even for a gentlewoman like yourself, Raina. Indeed, you weren't even the butt of the joke, Joey was. That too was obvious.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 19:45:41 (GMT)
From: Forum admin
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: For what it's worth...
Message:
I can confirm that 'ET' and 'raina' posted from different IP addresses - though I doubt anyone would have confused their styles.

(And, yes, 'ET's' post may have been dumn, but dumbness is not in itself a deletable offence. If it were, forum adminning would be a full-time job!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:09:10 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Forum admin
Subject: I would NEVER ask anyone be 'deleted'. EVER!
Message:
IP request was because of this post written by Jim:

'Joey, why in the world do you let raina off so easily? Just when I think you've
flushed out a rat you seem to let him go all over again. Honestly, why do you
think raina (or should I say 'raina') even mentioned this post if not to suggest
that she herself didn't write it? No, that part's pretty obvious to me. She drew
attention to it. What was her real reason?'

Thanx

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:17:51 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Raina needs special humour flags
Message:
Raina,

Is this hysterical overreaction to an obvious joke just part of your crazy bag lady shtick? I mean I don't want to make the same mistake as you here. But then you really are serious, huh? Too funny.

Listen, Raina, you've put me in the same detestable position you yourself sneered at last week: having to explain an obvious joke. Joey's nuts. He thinks that if you differ ever so slightly in how you see or speak about the cult then you must be s premie in ex clothing. I was trying to tease him about that and yes, I used you, an innocent bystander, if you will, as a prop. You know I've enver questioned your being 'Raina' (or, sorry, I mean 'raina'). You should have known I wasn't serious with that stupid, classic paranoid syllogism:

One way a spy can pretend to be one of the 'good guys' effectively is by pretending to criticize that person.

'x' [in this case, you] is 'apparently' criticizing ET[ again, in this case, you].

Therefore, you must be ET!

Crazy shit but it works for some. I was just making fun of that.

But you, in your reaction, raina, have really demonstrated how touchy, unreasonable and out there you can get too. Interesting.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 02:27:11 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Elaine? Can I get a witness?
Message:
Elaine,
Do you remember when Jim was accusing us of being the same person? (I'd rather not have to search for it through the archives.)

Jim Wrote:
'You know I've enver questioned your being 'Raina' (or, sorry, I mean 'raina'). You should have known I wasn't serious with that stupid, classic paranoid syllogism'

(I'm quite certain 'enver' is his little subconscious way of avoiding, or getting out of this blatant lie, as it was for at least a week or two Jim was insisting i was someone else 'back in the day' SO long ago...' (early stages of Alzheimers?)

and Jim?
I guess your slightly apologetic tone is a sign that you know you're wrong. How many hitz was the forum steadily climbing to for the past months? You honestly believe your jokes are 'obvious' to all these 'visitors' who happen thru? You honestly believe that EVERYONE knows 'Joey' and his quirky little personality? You really are fucked in the head. Is that why you were banned from posting in the past? Little reality problems Jim?

Surely you're intelligent enough to see your own DELUSIONAL little cubbie clubbie world? Have you been diagnosed a psychotic?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 02:51:50 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: No, I don't recall that at all
Message:
Do you remember when Jim was accusing us of being the same person? (I'd rather not have to search for it through the archives.)

I'm not saying it's impossible but I don't remember that. I usually avoid that kind of speculation. So, yeah, find it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Jun 13, 2000 at 02:43:14 (GMT)
From: Elaine
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Elaine? Can I get a witness?
Message:
Jeez,raina - it's been so long since I've even read anything Jim's posted - even if addressed to me....I can go back however for you if you can give me any hints as to where to look.
I'd help you in a second.
I believe you of course - that's enough for me that you remember it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 11:14:28 (GMT)
From: Forum admin
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: I would NEVER ask anyone be 'deleted'. EVER!
Message:
The comment about ET's post was really just an aside. I realise you weren't asking for its deletion and wasn't implying as much.

Jim's post was a joke, but perhaps it wasn't that obvious to everyone.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 16:28:53 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: Raina - ET is a regular poster here
Message:
And I don't think ET and you are the same person, for what that's worth. ET's posts are very different and address different concerns.

Take care -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:23:04 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: I've noticed...........
Message:
This was the post I was reacting to (by Jim):

'Joey, why in the world do you let raina off so easily? Just when I think you've
flushed out a rat you seem to let him go all over again. Honestly, why do you
think raina (or should I say 'raina') even mentioned this post if not to suggest
that she herself didn't write it? No, that part's pretty obvious to me. She drew
attention to it. What was her real reason? '

That's great that YOU know....but what about 25 other people that don't? THIS is the embodiment of evil in my mind. To corrupt someone elses story..........even in the minds of 15 psycho killers who happened here accidentally.....who i will never know and will never know me...as much as it doesn't matter?.......i really believe it all matters.........as much as nothing does anyway........

the idea that anyone spends their life believing that my life is worth attacking (and i get this from EVERYONE i know-IN THE REAL world!!!) is SO beyond understanding to me.........i used to think Jim was just testing me in some way....But no matter how sick I realize now he may be (and people here have called me sick!) i still can't understand LOOKING to spend one's energy CREATING problems to ruin others lives etc....(not that Jim is ruining my life! it's just SO symbolic).

i haven't read the 'U DUMB' post at bottom of this thread. But I would bet it's Jim.....posting his 35th alias......without warning..........

such is life.

hi katie
(Cables out!)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 12:23:05 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: I've noticed...........
Message:
U dumb was me, darling-darling...not Jim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 14:57:41 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: beauty
Message:
i love it when i'm wrong. a rare happening.

so you think i'm dumb?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:30:24 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: katie
Subject: p.s.
Message:
and how amazing it is that Jim thinks that because 5 people MIGHT get his useless joke (that is if he's not just claiming that now to eel out)....he pays no mind whatsoever to 30 other people who are just arriving!

It's becoming clear to me, an opening scene from Marat Sade, One Flew Over..., etc....but i can't resist TRYING to make a PERFECTLY valid and worthwhile point.

ya Jim i'm so stupid, and could only wish i had your mind etc............

why is he allowed to post aliases PARTICULARLY when they are malicious.....?

i got the public hanging treatment for writing PT HEAD poetry!!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 02:44:38 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: um raina...
Message:
Jim has his faults, but indiscriminant use of aliases is not one of them. I've never known him to use an alias. Yer barkin'up the wrong tree.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:18:34 (GMT)
From: raina
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Walt Whitman was ONE of them........
Message:
and if i wanted to I could try to remember 5-10 more............but that's not the point.

i don't care about anyone's use of aliases.....i do care about the obvious hypocrisy of SOME people being called on it and not others. Last month an FA decided that they needed to post a WARNING to me about using an alias (not that i was, but as if to embarrass) and it was in the Walt Whitman thread for example (why i remember it). none were malicious...in fact just funny to make people laugh.... and i even said it was me in the text messge.....

again-none of this however has to do with the point i was trying to make originally.........
i waste/spend more energy trying to get people to see my point.....and i am rarely successful....i'm not sure why i bother.....

i'm not sure if you can understand that i'm not REALLY replying to you, as much as i am trying to clear something up.........It's one thing for people to have ugly disagreements, but another for Jim to put MY NAME in the 'from field' or to try to convince people I am someone else....

in my mind it's a form of murder and doesn't get any uglier.

no i'm not barking up the wrong tree. but i am definately wasting my time.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 15:22:47 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: raina
Subject: How dare you use that name!!!!
Message:
i'm not sure if you can understand that i'm not REALLY replying to you, as much as i am trying to clear something up.........It's one thing for people to have ugly disagreements, but another for Jim to put MY NAME in the 'from field' or to try to convince people I am someone else....

in my mind it's a form of murder and doesn't get any uglier.

no i'm not barking up the wrong tree. but i am definately wasting my time.

Yes, Raina, I'm sure. And I guess it's safe to say that reading your posts about this is another form of suicide and that doesn't get much weirder.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 04:18:47 (GMT)
From: Suzanne
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Hi Everyone
Message:
Wow, there seems to be lots going on around here. I just resurfaced again after a few months to say thanks to y'all for being here, and helping me with my personal depgramming from Maharajidom. My husband and I are defintely both exes now, and feeling better about it every day. We have lots of regrets about some of the stuff we did in out cult days, to each other, to our families, and mostly to ourselves, though and that's painful at times, but we are helping each other through it. You guys are a beaming light and you've really helped us a lot. Loved the letter to Maharaji. I can't imagine that he would ever talk to you about it, though. He's too far gone. Thanks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 11:07:31 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Hi Everyone
Message:
Dear Suzanne,
So glad to hear and update from you. I remember reading your original post. Hope things continue to improve.
Have a great life!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 05:36:38 (GMT)
From: NewJerseyJerry
Email: None
To: Suzanne
Subject: Hi Everyone
Message:
I'm confused...should I chat here?
or chat with that babe on the net from San Diego?
Confused as always..thanks
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 11:10:10 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: NewJerseyJerry
Subject: Hi Everyone
Message:
Dear NJ Jerry,
Wonder where in NJ, I am from there originally, Essex County. Anyway, chat with whom you please, where and when. This isn't a cult you run your own life.
Or...if you need to have someone to pay homage to then send money and I'll let you join the church of Robynism and worship the Goddess Tigress. Whatever is right for you. :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 08:56:33 (GMT)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Hi Everyone
Message:
Robyn my dear, you flirting too? Godess Tigress? Growl! My cheque is on the way. I am a cat lover from way back. There's nothing like a fierce pussy!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 20:22:28 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Hi Everyone
Message:
Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 01:30:32 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Anyone Know About Jim Jones?
Message:
I'm trying to do research on Peoples Temple and Jonestown. Does anyone know where I can get the original footage taken at Jonestown on November 17 and 18 1978? I'd like to see how Jim Jones held up in those interviews with the press. I saw a sliced second of his interviewing from 'Investigative Reports: Jonestown' documentary, and he did not seemed to be drugged and spaced out, as he was presented in the media. It seems strange that these films haven't been released.
I know that Marianne says she knows a little about Peoples Temple from the Layton trial, but wanted to see if anyone else out there has anything (not the standard stuff thats in the libraries, they made so many cheap selling paperbacks!)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 18:37:37 (GMT)
From: Gilead Ji IV
Email: None
To: Gilead
Subject: Hey, I'm Lonely Here With My Inquiry.
Message:
where are you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Jun 11, 2000 at 21:56:56 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gilead Ji IV
Subject: With all due respect...
Message:
...you are asking the wrong people. This is a forum about Maharaji and his followers, NOT a general anti-cult forum, and I sincerely doubt that anyone here would have access to footage of Jim Jones. Perhaps you should try the 'alt.support.ex-cult' newsgroup or someplace like that.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Jun 12, 2000 at 01:43:04 (GMT)
From: Gilead
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: With all due respect...
Message:
Katie,
I know. But, amazingly, I was an ex premie, and learned about the web site, and interestingly (you may not have realized it) but there is one sister who is an ex premie, and actually had some first hand experiences.
What did you think of my comments on the Lord of the Universe? Anyway, I know about the web site, and hope you can bear with me on the other question. I realize its a different area.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index