Way -:- Balance and karma -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:44:09 (GMT)

__ Dharma Karma -:- Who gives a rat's ass? -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 02:02:55 (GMT)

__ Oliver -:- Balance and karma -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 01:00:53 (GMT)

__ fitzroy -:- karma = very unbalanced -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:37:04 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- crap as a theory ... but in practice: -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 18:34:25 (GMT)

__ Way -:- Cancel that! -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 19:02:49 (GMT)

__ cq -:- Balance and karma -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 18:19:40 (GMT)

__ __ Robyn -:- Balance and karma -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 21:50:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- ... and she's only 15! (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 08:14:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Zappa -:- Does she know how to 'nasty?' (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 20:31:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Janet Jackson -:- Does she know how to 'nasty?'? -:- Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 14:41:29 (GMT)

__ Gregg -:- A Surinam toad (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:20:00 (GMT)

__ __ Maharaji -:- 'Have you seen worms?' -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:55:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Humble devotee -:- ' Worms??'! -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 19:10:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ trixie -:- Shame on you humble devotee -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 19:22:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Dung-Beetle -:- Shame on you humble devotee -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 15:11:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Gives a new meaning to 'eat shit,' doesn't it? -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 18:26:16 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Dung-Beetle -:- Yes sir, may I have another? (nt) :-) -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 20:23:21 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Certainly, open wide please: -:- Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 15:51:41 (GMT)

__ __ __ hamzen -:- 'An addicted to gurus nobody' (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 17:52:10 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- The most unvaluable gem now preserved! -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 08:32:00 (GMT)

__ bb -:- Yowza! What a find JM......(nt) -:- Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 03:44:32 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- The 1978 publication date speaks volumes -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:13:17 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Premies are to blame! -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:39:10 (GMT)

__ __ __ G -:- Shri Sant Yog Ashram -:- Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 18:02:03 (GMT)

__ AJW -:- The most unvaluable gem now preserved! -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:24:10 (GMT)

__ __ He even speaks of -:- '...that machine which will create devotion' !(nt) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 17:32:48 (GMT)

ET -:- Answers From Guru Maharaj Ji - 15 Year Old Perfect -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 05:07:00 (GMT)

__ Mike -:- Realized this knowledge??????????????? -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 16:51:52 (GMT)

__ __ ET -:- Give it a week or two (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 02:57:57 (GMT)

__ Daneane -:- As warm and fuzzy as the videos -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 05:21:40 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- And to think, I don't have to give J-Michel a dime -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 07:27:32 (GMT)

Jim -:- The Indian Threat (worse than the Illuminati!) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 01:47:12 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- speaking of the Illuminati (ot sorry Jim) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 01:57:46 (GMT)

__ __ eb -:- speaking of the Illuminati (ot sorry Jim) -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 00:22:44 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- not speaking too much about that eb -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 00:40:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ eb -:- sex w/ selene (OT) -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 13:44:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yikes -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 16:46:49 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ eb (back on topic) -:- What I Learned From Maharaji -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 19:59:43 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- What I learned from life -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 20:27:08 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- speaking of the Illuminati (ot sorry Jim) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 18:53:52 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- thanks cq -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:18:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- gentile persuasion ... where's that whip? ! (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:22:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- cq are you missing your guru that much? -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:51:22 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Yes, I need more target practise! (nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 10:00:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- why me? -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 16:48:57 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- So *you're* now my guru??? er... how much?(nt) -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 18:23:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- oops I think I misunderstood. I'm sorry (NT) -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 18:40:48 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Why are men so misunderstood? ... Read on ... -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 19:27:21 (GMT)

__ __ Gregg -:- Illuminati (OT) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:18:39 (GMT)

Phillipe -:- Beware. Internet and cults are both based on lies. -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:00:27 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- though I have no idea who to trust anymore -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:48:44 (GMT)

__ __ Selene -:- ps another break at work -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 00:13:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ Oliver -:- G'day Selene -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 00:48:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Selene -:- yes I do -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 00:58:41 (GMT)

Maurice -:- What's the truth behind allegations... -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:30:36 (GMT)

__ Ball bag one. Ghee! -:- What's the truth behind allegations... -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 21:29:23 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Where is JP anyway? -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:39:47 (GMT)

__ __ Dave -:- The threats are serious -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 00:06:17 (GMT)

__ __ __ The South Eastern Quoll -:- The serious are Threats? -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 13:39:56 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- The threats are serious - not arti again? owww(nt) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 18:57:58 (GMT)

cq -:- The psychology/psychosis of the Guru mentality -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 19:15:45 (GMT)

__ Stonor -:- Guruspeak is beginning to remind me of . . . -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 22:21:52 (GMT)

__ __ hamzen -:- Guruspeak is beginning to remind me of . . . -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 17:59:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ cq -:- 'And if no love, okay. Can they be obliged to me?' -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 19:03:16 (GMT)

__ Hal -:- Maha the monster Meglomaniac -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 19:45:34 (GMT)

__ Q -:- psychology/psychosis of the trapped mentality -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 19:41:18 (GMT)

__ __ Daneane -:- Wow, I would have never gotten that. -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:12:08 (GMT)

__ __ cq -:- psychology/psychosis of the trapped mentality -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:00:25 (GMT)

__ __ __ Q -:- the savvy guru consumer -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:19:34 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ cq -:- 'line-item return to sender' ? Non comprehende ... -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:34:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Q -:- Take what you can use... -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:44:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Q -:- ps -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:47:01 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- ps I did. Freer? Or too many cooks? (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:01:09 (GMT)

Media -:- Reporter's memories of Millenium -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 14:28:19 (GMT)

__ Blood Boils -:- Reporter's memories of Millenium...good one -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:00:41 (GMT)

__ __ Way -:- Rennie -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:23:53 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jimmy Fitz -:- Rennie, Life Insurance and that Eastern shit -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:15:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Blood Boils -:- Nice work....activist (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:29:39 (GMT)

Hal -:- Phew! This is tough at times! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 06:46:31 (GMT)

__ bb -:- YOU are fast.. I took at least 2 years. (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 03:46:59 (GMT)

__ SB -:- Phew! This is tough at times! -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 17:54:06 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Phew! This is tough at times! -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:47:09 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- Jim , when do I receive my -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:09:40 (GMT)

__ __ __ Mike -:- Look for two circles and two dots -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 17:00:28 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- When? WHEN!? What kind of a question is that? -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 01:24:38 (GMT)

__ Helen -:- Phew! This is tough at times! -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:15:54 (GMT)

__ JHB -:- Great Post, Hal! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 11:47:35 (GMT)

__ Loaf -:- Well done that man !! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 11:28:09 (GMT)

__ __ Robyn -:- Well done that man !! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 13:54:28 (GMT)

__ Robyn -:- Phew! This is tough at times! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:04:57 (GMT)

__ Face pilesof trials with -:- smiles...it's riles them to believe you -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 07:17:08 (GMT)

__ hamzen -:- But it gets better with each onion layer peeled -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 07:08:39 (GMT)

__ Selene -:- You are lucky you aren't female -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 06:59:12 (GMT)

__ __ Hal -:- Selene and all on the thread........ -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:12:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ Selene -:- Selene and all on the thread........ -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:55:02 (GMT)

Harry -:- Hey Mike............ot -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 03:26:36 (GMT)

__ Mike -:- OOOOpppsss (ot) -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:27:48 (GMT)

__ __ Mike -:- Hey Harry.... a question(ot) -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 16:21:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ Harry -:- Hey Harry.... a question(ot) -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 23:52:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Harry -:- PS -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 04:47:30 (GMT)

__ Robyn -:- Hey Mike............ot -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:08:56 (GMT)

__ __ Harry -:- Hey Mike............ot -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 09:23:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ Robyn -:- Hey Mike............ot -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 10:34:41 (GMT)

Jim -:- Hey babe, wanna have a REAL good time? -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 02:01:44 (GMT)

Bobby -:- OT - one for diehard freaks -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 00:26:54 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- I used to love that guy -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 02:22:27 (GMT)

__ __ hamzen -:- Too bad, an interesting character -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 07:02:08 (GMT)

Rrated-X -:- m's Scare Tactics, fear of dying -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 21:35:35 (GMT)

__ G -:- Rawat's contradictory statements about death -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 22:29:30 (GMT)

__ __ Blood Boils -:- 'Die and find out' -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 00:44:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ someone there -:- that exchange -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 01:19:26 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Blood Boils -:- that exchange-:- trying to remember the details -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 01:41:44 (GMT)

Jim -:- Mike D., what's your PROFESSIONAL opinion? -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 17:33:37 (GMT)

__ Loaf -:- A very refreshing question !!(nt) -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 11:30:22 (GMT)

Thanks to Jim's Grace -:- here is Alta Loma Terrace Satsang! -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 14:12:35 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Last part ('Dedicate. Just be in my order.....') -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:57:44 (GMT)

__ aoa ji -:- here is Alta Loma Terrace Satsang! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 13:24:49 (GMT)

__ Jim -:- Okay, okay, I guess I'll finish it now -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:19:17 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- But WHEN is your mother going to be ready? -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:33:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Ah, the problem: I'm not sure if she's ready -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 17:01:32 (GMT)

__ gerry -:- 'unvalueable gem indeed!' (the pun) LOL (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:19:10 (GMT)

__ Way -:- To JM -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 14:49:51 (GMT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- To JM -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 15:07:38 (GMT)

__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- No please tell me! (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 15:08:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: No please tell me! (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:24:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: No please tell me! -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:30:47 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ cq -:- Hang loose JM, (or is that unloose?) ??? (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 19:19:59 (GMT)

Scott T. -:- G vs. E (ot) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 08:31:19 (GMT)

__ Jerry -:- G vs. E (ot) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 13:34:30 (GMT)

__ __ Scott T. -:- G vs. E (ot) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 15:45:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ JW -:- Scott, can't let you get away with this -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 03:23:54 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The 'founding fathers' -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 04:51:23 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- The 'founding fathers' -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 17:50:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The 'founding fathers' -:- Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 07:20:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- The 'founding fathers' -:- Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 17:42:24 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Scott, can't let you get away with this -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 03:22:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Scott, can't let you get away with this -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 16:42:51 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- The myth about Jefferson -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 16:26:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- The myth about Jefferson -:- Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 07:05:32 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- The myth about Jefferson -:- Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 16:47:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- The myth about Jefferson -:- Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 16:55:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ gErRy -:- G vs. E (ot) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 17:07:27 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- G vs. E (ot) -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:31:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- 3 billion folks living on 2 dollars a day... -:- Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 20:43:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- 3 billion folks living on 2 dollars a day... -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 03:28:12 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- A worthwhile goal --thanks -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 17:19:36 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- huh? -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:58:37 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- ADM is a good choice -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:47:00 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- and THAT blame, he deserves :-) -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:52:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- How much is too much? -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 12:55:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Excellent point Mike and a true dilemma -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 22:12:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- I heard differently, Mike -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:11:35 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Try LINUX, Jerry! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 22:05:20 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Before trying and install Linux -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 09:24:59 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Put a request for drivers on the news page. -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:05:15 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- News' page URL? -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:12:58 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- There are MANY newsgroups -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:50:04 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- agree one hundred per cent -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 23:15:50 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- I want it !!! -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 22:18:05 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ aoaji -:- Linux - I want it !!! -ot- -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 01:55:09 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Couldn't DISAGREE more :-) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:26:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- Couldn't DISAGREE more :-) -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 03:37:30 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ selene -:- Couldn't DISAGREE more :-) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 17:19:42 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Hey, it keeps us in the green -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 21:00:18 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- yes the damned things are everywhere -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 21:23:14 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- CHOICE--Imagine that! -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 17:09:46 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- you can have it and partition too -:- Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 23:17:03 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- That is good advice, Selene -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:35:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Use separate hard disks if you can! -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:04:08 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Another good point, JM. -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:14:45 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- A new drive instead of a new computer -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 03:45:33 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- SCSI -:- Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 14:48:29 (GMT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Thanks aoa ji and Selene (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:09:50 (GMT)

Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:44:09 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Balance and karma Message:

I figure I'm slowly balancing myself out here. I have to counteract all that 'service' I did, which I accomplish by being an activist against the cult, against all cults. I have to counteract all that satsang I gave, which I accomplish by badmouthing the living perfect master and singing my own praises whenever possible. I have to counteract all that meditation I did, which I accomplish by either engaging in very un-meditative activities, or by meditating via techniques quite different than Rawat's favorite four. Pretty easy, but I wonder about Rawat sometimes. Does he ever think about the shitload of karma he's creating for himself. How is he ever going to balance himself out?? I doubt he has sufficient time left in this lifetime to get much balancing done (even if he started now)and surely he will have to reincarnate as something ... hummmm ... any suggestions?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 02:02:55 (GMT) From: Dharma Karma Email: None To: Way Subject: Who gives a rat's ass? Message:

Regarding Maharaji's karma, who cares?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 01:00:53 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: Way Subject: Balance and karma Message:

I'd love to think that Maha could come back as a snake in the grass at Amaroo. The one's he warned us about to try and keep us out of forbidden sections of the site such as his 'humble' little dwelling etc. Now that would be appropriate karma in my book.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:37:04 (GMT) From: fitzroy Email: fitzroy@liverpool.ac.uk To: Way Subject: karma = very unbalanced Message:

Karma is prima facie crap theory (IMO)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 18:34:25 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: fitzroy Subject: crap as a theory ... but in practice: Message:

THE HUNTER Bill's all excited about his new rifle. So, he goes bear hunting in Alaska. The first bear he sees is a little brown bear, and he kills it with his first shot. There is a tap on his shoulder, and he turns around to see a big black bear. The black bear says, 'You've got two choices. One, I maul you to death or Two, we have sex.' Bill bends over for the bear. He's sore for two days, but he recovers and vows revenge. Bill heads out on another trip to Alaska and he finds the black bear and kills him. At that moment there is a tap on his shoulder. A huge grizzly is standing right behind him. The grizzly says, 'That was a big mistake. You've got two choices, Either I maul you to death or we have sex.' Bill bends over. He survives, but he's really hurting and takes quite a bit of time to recover. He's outraged. Sure enough, he heads back to Alaska and finds the grizzly and shoots him at point blank range. There's a tap on his shoulder. He turns around to find an enormous polar bear, and the polar bear says, 'You don't really come here for the hunting, do you?'

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 19:02:49 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Way Subject: Cancel that! Message:

Sorry about my post, above. It leads to some weird thoughts. Best ignored.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 18:19:40 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Way Subject: Balance and karma Message:

Yeah, what about the Maha's karma? Then again, he might know where he's coming from, if not where he's going. Then again, maybe only Typhoid Mary can tell? (Typhoid Mary is really Stacy, who 'hates two things, McDonalds and the Teletubbies. Both are revelations that the Anti-Christ is among us') Me? I'm off to the Church of Ketchup

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 21:50:47 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: cq Subject: Balance and karma Message:

Dear Chris, Last week I watched the movies, 'The Sixth Sense' and 'The Bone Collector' and had to go to sleep with the light on. I had the same feeling when I went to the Typhoid Mary site so I didn't delve! Scary! :| Love, Robyn

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 08:14:48 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Robyn Subject: ... and she's only 15! (nt) Message:

... and she's only 15! (nt)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 20:31:01 (GMT) From: Zappa Email: None To: cq Subject: Does she know how to 'nasty?' (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 14:41:29 (GMT) From: Janet Jackson Email: None To: Zappa Subject: Does she know how to 'nasty?'? Message:

'Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be.' Reporter: 'This is a personal thing, I think that if you wanted to make top ten hits and sell millions of records, you could.' Frank Zappa: 'Yeah, but who wants to go through life with a tiny nose and one glove on?' 'A mind is like a parachute. It doesnt work if it's not open.' 'If you want to get together in any exclusive situation and have people love you, fine -- but to hang all this desperate sociology on the idea of The Cloud-Guy who has The Big Book, who knows if you've been bad or good -- and CARES about any of it -- to hang it all on that, folks, is the chimpanzee part of the brain working.' --The Real Frank Zappa Book, by Frank Zappa and Peter Occhiogrosso, p. 301 'The first hyphen in MAH-JUH-REEN could be used for erotic gratification by a very desparate stenographer'.--Sydney australia, 1974. 'Tax the FUCK out of the churches! '

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:20:00 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Way Subject: A Surinam toad (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:55:25 (GMT) From: Maharaji Email: None To: Gregg Subject: 'Have you seen worms?' Message:

'Have you seen worms? Have you seen ants? I can understand what it means to be born as an ant or worm in your next birth.' -Maharaji, April 13, 1991, New Delhi

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 19:10:56 (GMT) From: Humble devotee Email: None To: Maharaji Subject: ' Worms??'! Message:

Gosh no my supreme masterful god incarnate. What is 'worm' what is 'ant'?? I only live in India... We are so into Maya but I have not seen those things. Please forgive my lowly ignorance and enlighten me with your wisdom. To be born as one of those must be truly a boggie man thing. Please more holy discourse so that I may understand. Pranam Praanm Hang on what is the word for these things in the dirt?

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 19:22:30 (GMT) From: trixie Email: None To: Humble devotee Subject: Shame on you humble devotee Message:

Maraji said this in 1991. You act like EVERYBODY would have seen worms and ants. HA! Apparently you have never been to India. He was only talking that way to make sure he addressed the lowext common denominator in the crowd he was speaking to. When was the last time YOU gave satsang to a crowd that big?? HMMM? Please be fair in the future- your kind give this forum a bad name.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 15:11:41 (GMT) From: Dung-Beetle Email: None To: trixie Subject: Shame on you humble devotee Message:

Trix: I am but a humble dung-beetle laying under the feet of my Guru Mariachi. I've sent him ALL of my old twenty dollar bills and devoted my life to supporting HIS life of materialistic splendor. THAT is the real purpose of life, you know! Hitching your cart to a guru that was living in Indian squalor and really, really, really wants a mansion in the malibu hills. THUS, our dear mariachi was born. What grace, what wisdom, what wonder..... Ahhhhh, I'm in perfect peace. I would give one of my many arms to be an ant or a worm.... Imagine living off dung for your entire life! Gives a new meaning to 'eat shit,' doesn't it?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 18:26:16 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Dung-Beetle Subject: Gives a new meaning to 'eat shit,' doesn't it? Message:

'Gives a new meaning to 'eat shit,' doesn't it?' ...and, boy, are premies getting a lot of practise!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 20:23:21 (GMT) From: Dung-Beetle Email: None To: cq Subject: Yes sir, may I have another? (nt) :-) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 15:51:41 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Dung-Beetle Subject: Certainly, open wide please: Message:

'In the beginning there was a Plan. And then came the Assumptions. And the Assumptions were without form. And the Plan was without substance. And darkness was upon the faces of the Workers. And they spoke among themselves, saying, 'It is a crock of shit and it stinks.' And the Workers went unto their Supervisors and said, 'It is a pail of dung we can not live with the smell.' And the Supervisors went unto their Managers saying, 'It is a container of excrement and it is very strong and none may abide by it.' And the Managers went unto their Directors saying, 'It is a vessel of fertilizer and none may abide its strength.' And the Directors spoke among themselves saying to one another, 'It contains that which aids plant growth and it is very strong.' And the Directors went unto their Vice Presidents saying unto them, 'It promotes growth and it is very powerful.' And the Vice Presidents went unto the President saying unto him, 'This new Plan will actively promote the growth and vigor of the Company with very powerful effects.' And the President looked upon the Plan and saw that it was good. And the Plan became Policy. And that is how Shit happens.'

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 17:52:10 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Maharaji Subject: 'An addicted to gurus nobody' (nt) Message:

a

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 08:32:00 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The most unvaluable gem now preserved! Message:

for eternity, and for the very unlikely new generations of premies .... Maharaji finally agreed to talk about Satguru at Alta Loma Terrace.

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Date: Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 03:44:32 (GMT) From: bb Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Yowza! What a find JM......(nt) Message:

dfjhdf

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:13:17 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: The 1978 publication date speaks volumes Message:

This 'most powerful' satsang was published long after Maharaji had already shaken off all the 'Hindu trappings' his apologists keep insisting he was eagre to cast off as soon as he also rid himself of his evil mother, etc. He did that in '75 and '76. No, this cult propoganda was part of a renewed crime spree which started in '77. Now let's see? Who can Maharaji blame for that? You? You? How about you? Or maybe him? .............No? Okay, how about Him?

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:39:10 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: Premies are to blame! Message:

Rawat tried to do something, and DLM did something else! Hahahaha That's why DLM's been dissolved later on. Rawat had no control over His organizations ..... He had only 64 powers you know !! Things have changed now, that's why he's been saying the same sort of stuff in the 90s (read the Recent Indian Satsang' page) ! What a gross farce.....

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Date: Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 18:02:03 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Shri Sant Yog Ashram Message:

Some pictures of Shri Sant Yog Ashram are available off the www.enjoyinglife.org What's New page. To see them, click on 'Übersetzungen ins Deutsche', then on 'Anandotsav: Festival of Bliss, Neu Delhi, 2. April 1999'

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:24:10 (GMT) From: AJW Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: The most unvaluable gem now preserved! Message:

Bonjour Jean-Michel, Although premies tell us that all this 'Satguru' stuff is out of date, looking at Maharaji's website makes it obvious that he still believes it all. The cult would probably do better without him, as he's obviously still stuck in his Hindu past. Maybe they should give him a pension- enough to run his luxury used car mart- and get on without him. He could still have shares in the cult, and take a cut from the gaudy trinket sales, overpriced videos, etc etc. Anth the Objective Business Analyst

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 17:32:48 (GMT) From: He even speaks of Email: None To: all Subject: '...that machine which will create devotion' !(nt) Message:

He even speaks of ' ...that machine which will create devotion'

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 05:07:00 (GMT) From: ET Email: 74452.1254@compuserve.com To: Everyone Subject: Answers From Guru Maharaj Ji - 15 Year Old Perfect Message:

(from a pamphlet dated July 1973 called Divine Light Mission...an Introduction) Who is Guru Maharaj Ji? I have not come to establish a new religion or sect, but I have come to give you Knowledge of Truth. If you come to me with a guileless heart you will surely receive this most ancient spiritual Knowledge, which, if practiced upon, will give us perfect peace of mind. Jesus gave this Knowledge, Krishna gave this Knowledge, but now we must look again for a new Master to show us the light. The sun comes and goes away but we don't look for the light of day which has just gone. We look for the new rising sun. The sun is there, but it rises in a new beautiful way, and we look for that. In the same way, God is the same, but now we look for Him to come, in a new way, to give this Knowledge. What is a Perfect Master? When we say 'Perfect Master', this is what we mean. A man who teaches you math, you call him a math master. A man who teaches you science, you call him a science master. A man who teaches you perfectness, you call him a Perfect Master. What is the 'Knowledge' of Guru Maharaj Ji? You won't be able to understand my Knowledge with these bare words, because the Knowledge is a matter of experience. God is not words. God is a living experience, a practical, living reality. Only people who have seen that Light, tasted that Nectar, concentrated on that Word and listened to those musical instruments can understand what I am saying. If you read the scriptures, you will get a little peace, maybe one or two degrees of peace, but by this Knowledge you can get a hundred degrees of peace. One must experience and realize it for oneself. And only those people who really find the True Perfect Master are able to realize that supreme Joy that comes from true Knowledge. Is the organization of your followers, the Divine Light Mission, just another religion? Divine Light Mission is a word, it is not going to give the peace. Peace is given by the Knowledge and the people who are following this Knowledge are combining into a group called Divine Light Mission... This Knowledge is such a thing that I can be a Christian and still follow it. It is not a separate following, it is not a separate sect. Divine Light Mission is not going to give you the peace. Divine Light Mission is just an organization of those people who have realized this Knowledge, that's all. And you can come and join us if you want. I cannot explain haw far out this Knowledge is, but when you get it you will like it. -Shri Guru Maharaj Ji

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 16:51:52 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: ET Subject: Realized this knowledge??????????????? Message:

ET: GOOD QUOTES! I guess NONE of us were ever members of DLM! Why? Because M said, '....Divine Light Mission is just an organization of those people who have REALIZED this Knowledge, that's all.' (emphasis mine). Hey, Jim, JW, Katie, Brian, Padre, Scott, Robyn, JHB, Rick, Selene, Trixie, Way, AJW and infinite multitude...... Did you know that YOU are realized?????? WOW, we were 'realized' all the time and weren't even smart enough to figure it out. What a bunch of losers we are.... BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! Well, I guess since we're ALL realized, then we don't need no stinking perfect master anymore, right? Hey, don't blame me, HE's the one that said we had 'jumped the bar,' already. WOW, I guess that means I can now walk around with my eyes half-closed and a stupid smile pasted on my face. Coooool!

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Date: Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 02:57:57 (GMT) From: ET Email: 74452.1254@compuserve.com To: Mike Subject: Give it a week or two (nt) Message:

to 'Realize' the Knowledge.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 05:21:40 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Everyone Subject: As warm and fuzzy as the videos Message:

Have I mentioned how glad I am that this site exists? And to think, I don't have to give Jean-Michel a dime.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 07:27:32 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Daneane Subject: And to think, I don't have to give J-Michel a dime Message:

You don't HAVE TO give m money either ... nobody's FORCING you ....... hahahaha

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 01:47:12 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Indian Threat (worse than the Illuminati!) Message:

Mountaintop Retreat With Maharishi Leaves Greenspan Obsessed With Rupee WASHINGTON, DC--Returning from a two-week retreat at the top of Nanda Devi in the Indian state of Himachal Pradesh with mentor Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, Fed Chair Alan Greenspan announced Monday that all currency flows organically from India's rupee. 'Just as water, which ordinarily flows downhill, will leap up to cover a rock, so do the currencies of the seven major industrialized nations adapt their direction and flow to the rupee, the one constant in an ever-changing economy,' said Greenspan, clad in a traditional Indian sherwani and sandals. 'The metafiscal ramifications are simultaneously overwhelming and calming.'

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 01:57:46 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: all Subject: speaking of the Illuminati (ot sorry Jim) Message:

Just visited a house in CA where a guy spent the entire visit keyboarding and talking at the same time. Wouldn't stop keyboarding. Looked like a young (but tall) Mel Gibson. Kind of hinted he never left the house. Said he never allowed food in the house because the house had not been sterilized enough. Talked about PERL and the Illuminati. ahh California. anyway... Does anyone have that trilogy? It's not in print anymore. At least I can't find it. I read it years ago. And if I tried to read it now, I may hate it. But I'd like to try. I'd pay postage and would return it. Well you can ask Katie I've returned most of the stuff she's sent.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 00:22:44 (GMT) From: eb Email: None To: Selene Subject: speaking of the Illuminati (ot sorry Jim) Message:

Hey Selene, The keyboardist (drummer), PERL, Mel Gibson just talks about the Illuminati--your friend on the hill runs the Illuminati. How do you think he came to be so psychic?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 00:40:36 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: eb Subject: not speaking too much about that eb Message:

you are the brave one bringing up the 'p' word over here. It could be something in the water. Or all that sex. Or just having sex with me. HA!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 13:44:03 (GMT) From: eb Email: None To: Selene Subject: sex w/ selene (OT) Message:

Yes, it causes one to speak about PERL, but I promise never to mention it again here on this forum. All apologies, eb

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 16:46:49 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: eb Subject: yikes Message:

I'm not sure about that topic. This forum sure has changed. Remember a few years ago? That subject line wouldn't have seemed like any big deal - oh well. And to redeem myself: following maharaji was a bummer (there I feel better now)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 19:59:43 (GMT) From: eb (back on topic) Email: None To: Selene Subject: What I Learned From Maharaji Message:

About a week after receiving knowledge, I realized that if I hung my clothes up right away after wearing them, I wouldn't have to pick them up later. Selene, I just can't picture you pranaming, kissing feet, or giving satsang. Are you sure you were a premie? eb

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 20:27:08 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: eb (back on topic) Subject: What I learned from life Message:

well I burnt out on programming, hence they are letting me hire 2 people to help with all the projects I let them let me take on. Well I sucked at being a premie, hence I am here. As fer as that ther sat sang thang... well ya know gal, I always was a bit of a ham.. (no pun intended ham) never could avoid the spotlight... so what the hell. Just another acting job. Beats pretending to have sex with a corpse. That's another story for another time.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 18:53:52 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Selene Subject: speaking of the Illuminati (ot sorry Jim) Message:

Robert Anton ('reality is what you can get away with') Wilson's homepage is at http://www.tcp.com/~prime8/RAW/ and his books can be found at http://www.pocreations.com/wilson.html. Alternatively, I'm sure you have your own preference for search engines, but mine is http://www.ussc.alltheweb.com which comes up with: this ... and all without the aid of whip ... whatever next?

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:18:32 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cq Subject: thanks cq Message:

This gentle persuasion stuff isn't half bad.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:22:37 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Selene Subject: gentile persuasion ... where's that whip? ! (nt) Message:

gentile persuasion ... where's that whip? ! (nt)

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:51:22 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cq Subject: cq are you missing your guru that much? Message:

You could try a career in computing. That is good for hours of obsessing. And unlike maharaji, it pays well.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 10:00:54 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Selene Subject: Yes, I need more target practise! (nt) Message:

Am I missing him? Yes, I need more target practise!(nt)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 16:48:57 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cq Subject: why me? Message:

I think I know. Seems unfair since I haven't done anything to you.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 18:23:38 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Selene Subject: So *you're* now my guru??? er... how much?(nt) Message:

So you're now my guru? er... how much?(nt)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 18:40:48 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: cq Subject: oops I think I misunderstood. I'm sorry (NT) Message:

oops

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 19:27:21 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Selene Subject: Why are men so misunderstood? ... Read on ... Message:

Why are men so misunderstood? (This ain't original, but you might enjoy ...) It's a testosterone thing. Much similar to your PMS thing, we men suffer from testosterone poisoning. Why do you think the average lifespan of a male is typically 10 years shorter (and it's not just from all the bitching and nagging we have to endure)? Hormone modifies behavior. We're just misunderstood. Why do men always have to ogle at other women? Again, this is a testosterone thing. Do you honestly think that all the testosterone just fell out of our bodies the moment we met you? Besides, women do it as well. Women are just much better at not getting caught. I'm fairly certain it's some sort of photographic memory deal. Women take one quick look and memorize it for later reference. Since men lack this ability, we try to burn it into our memory by staring as much as we can. Why do men always touch themselves, especially in public? We occasionally need to adjust our little friend and make him happy. It's much like adjusting your bra. Being in public is just an added bonus. Why do men always say such stupid things? We like to. It's actually a whole lot of fun to see our partner frustrated by a few simple (and well-chosen) words. Why can't men just share their feelings? Do we look like women to you? Why is it so hard to understand that men and women are different? How are we supposed to share how we feel when we have no idea how we feel? Unless we're experiencing some extreme emotion like rage, hatred, disgust, or a brick on our foot, we have no idea how we feel. Personally, I get a headache whenever I try to figure out how I feel. Why can't men cuddle more (i.e. lie down and hug)? Please... How many hours do you think there is in a day? We oblige you as much as we can, but who the heck (besides women) can stand lying around for hours on end? We men... Men hunters... Need go roam... Starve in cave... Must go find wildebeest... Now sitting on our asses for hours on end on the other hand is a whole other story. How can men sit on their asses all day without moving? Men have very powerful sets of sitting muscles developed by evolution that enable us to sit for extended periods of time without getting tired. In prehistoric times, it was often necessary to sit in one spot for extended periods of time while hunting for prey. The more successful hunters were able to sit very still for very extended periods of time thereby passing on this ability to their progeny. The fidgety types were all gobbled up by saber toothed tigers etcetera. The end result is that almost all modern men are born with this innate ability. Why can't men just say, 'I love you?' Men are taught from a tender young age to be self-sufficient. To say that we love you is equivalent to saying that we need you. Most men consider that a character fault. It's not easy to admit to one's own character faults. Why do men say, 'I love you' when they hardly know me? Ho, Ho, Ho... Aren't you special? Well, some men think it's a sure-fire way to get into your pants. Surprisingly, it actually still works quite well. What does it mean when men say, 'I Love You?' 1. Please sleep with me. 2. I'm sorry for whatever it is that I did. 3. I forgot to get you a gift; this will have to do. 4. Huh? I'm sorry; I wasn't listening. 5. What did I forget? This should buy me a little time. 6. Stop nagging me. 7. What do I have to do to get a beer around here? Why won't men ever pick up after themselves? Why should we? It doesn't really bother us that much. Besides, we know darn well that you'll pick it up. What's with all the belching and farting? This usually only occurs after months of courting. It's our way to let you know that we're comfortable with you. Believe it or not, it's actually a sign of affection. Besides, holding it for extended periods of time gives us stomach cramps. Why can't men ever leave the toilet seat down? Have you ever seen one of us pee? The proper position of the toilet seat is up. Mathematically speaking, the proper position of the toilet seat is a function of the time spent peeing over the time spent sitting. The closer that ratio approaches one, the truer the proposition. Besides, it's actually a courtesy that we lift the seat. Why would we care if we pee all over the seat? You're the ones that have to sit on it. You should appreciate the fact that we actually lift the darn thing. We aim to please. Why do men find blonde bimbos attractive? Are you kidding? Even leaving the physical aside, blonde bimbos are generally much easier to get along (alone) with. They like having fun and doing exciting things. They don't walk around with the weight of the world on their shoulders. They don't ever give us a hard time for being a dumb male; and plus they laugh at most of our jokes (even the ones they don't get). What more could any of us males ask for? Why do men fear commitment? Don't be so surprised. Yes, most of us do know what 'commitment' means and can spell it correctly. It's like an automobile. No matter how good you think this year's model is, they're always coming out with newer, faster, better, sleeker, and sexier models. We simply cannot be expected to purchase the first one we see. We must browse around a bit and test-drive a few. Who wants to end up with a lemon? At least with a car, there's a slight chance of it eventually becoming a classic. It simply makes much more sense to lease and upgrade to the younger... err... I mean newer models every couple of years. Some of them come with fun extras like dual air bags. What does it mean when men say, 'I'm just not ready for a relationship right now' or 'I don't want a girl friend?' It means that we like you enough to sleep with you, but not enough so that we want to see you repeatedly. What does it mean when men say, 'Can we just be friends?' Generally, it means that the recipient of said comment is physically repulsive enough that no beer goggles may be thick enough to provide adequate protection. Do all men really masturbate? Yes. It is genetically inherited behavior. It's been passed on from our most primal forefathers, and it'll be passed on to our sons. Why do men generally have greater upper body strength? Several factors are at work, namely evolution, heredity, nutrition, and environment. (See also: Do all men really masturbate?) Why do men generally have better hand-eye or spatial coordinate motor coordination? It is like with all things. Practice... Practice... Practice... (See also: Do all men really masturbate?) Why are men so obsessed with beautiful women? As opposed to what? Really ugly women? Face it, if men were obsessed with ugly women, there would be just as much bitching about why men are so obsessed with ugly women. No matter how you set this up, some people are always going to be left out. I don't see anyone screaming about equal treatment for the stupid people either. Why do men like younger women? Well, let's see. Besides the fact that younger women like older men, they're easily impressed. They're also perky, energetic, and come with very little baggage. And gravity has less prevail over their bodies. Why do men only have one thing on their minds? While technically correct, this statement is not strictly true. We may only be able to entertain one idea at a time, but we do think of lots of other things besides sex, such as sports and beer. We also get hungry quite often. How can men possibly find that other woman attractive (i.e. whatever do you see in that fat pig)? Even if you happen to be Cindy Crawford, once we get the idea that you are ours, other women suddenly become much more attractive and you lose a few attractiveness points. I'm a bit puzzled by this one myself. I think evolution is to blame. We men are just innocent bystanders in the war of the selfish genes. You should love us despite our inherent weakness. And finally: Q. How do we know that God is a man? A. Because if God was a woman, sperm would taste like chocolate.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:18:39 (GMT) From: Gregg Email: None To: Selene Subject: Illuminati (OT) Message:

There are a lot of people who really believe all this Illuminati crap...you know, a secret society manipulating world events etc... I had do do some research on the Illuminati for a play I wrote; and every single library book on the Illuminati was always on demand. Couldn't renew 'em...always someone waiting to read about the Illuminati. Maybe this isn't completely OT...the Illuminati/conspiracy/UFO believers feel comforted by their belief as we were by ours. It's a good feeling, knowing The Truth. Obviates the need to figure things out for yourself.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:00:27 (GMT) From: Phillipe Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Beware. Internet and cults are both based on lies. Message:

My name is not Maurice, Phillipe, Lacaille, Boris nor Gaëtan and i am not - as I sometimes imply - a tall young blond chick with long legs and sex on her mind. That being said, we can induct some folks posting here are devotees in disguise trying to sow confusion and misleading information. Let's beware. On the other hand, we can count on the fact every bit of this forum is being carefully read by intelligence pros linked to Malibu. This is a known fact. I'd like them to know that premies are becoming ex-premies every day. (We used to say 'A sucker is born every minute.') From time to time, some turn-out to be well-informed and one day, enough information will be gathered to hit M between a rock and a hard place. It's only a matter of time and nothing will stop the anger of a few thousand folks who were wronged. What's my point? My point is this: On the day M is subpenae, which side would you prefer to be a witness for? Make your bets and hope you win in the long-run. (What was the saying? 'Short-time pleasure, long-time pain.') The way things are going, the crowd of devotees is getting smaller. One day, meeting will be infiltrated with agitators and soon M will stop holding meetings. Next? You'll see.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:48:44 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Phillipe Subject: though I have no idea who to trust anymore Message:

Thanks that was timely and appeciated. now back to work. God will this 2 week crisis ever be resolved? What was I thinking getting into computing? Oh yeah. Feed the kids.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 00:13:18 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: all Subject: ps another break at work Message:

My statement above was not accurate. There are many of you here that I trust. Sorry.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 00:48:37 (GMT) From: Oliver Email: None To: Selene Subject: G'day Selene Message:

Have been absent for a few days and missed your angst but caught up with it over on AG. Glad your back in the land of Happy and wish you the best. All my love and hope you trust me, O. XXXX

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 00:58:41 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Oliver Subject: yes I do Message:

I am slowly coming down. God what a profesion. Days of mellow maintenance. Surfing the net looking for fun new tools to play with then BAM, crisis mode. I used to be able to handle it much better. oh well in two or three weeks I will have hired 2 new victims oh I mean anaylsts to help me. Reminds me of the premie days in some odd way. I suppose other careers aren't so different. Thanks for being around. I've decided to use AG much more creatively. stay tuned.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:30:36 (GMT) From: Maurice Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What's the truth behind allegations... Message:

I was told lately folks close to M intimidate, treathen, spy and blackmail opponents. I guess there must be some truth there. Any info? JFP once went public about cult for a Montreal magazine and was pressured to shut-up. Is it really that bad?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 21:29:23 (GMT) From: Ball bag one. Ghee! Email: None To: Maurice Subject: What's the truth behind allegations... Message:

What I heard is more serious than that. The type of 'pressure' I heard about goes from immoral to outrighr illegal. Mind you. One doesn't gather and keep so much wealth without being efficient in keeping ennemies quiet. We're talking about a huge fortune here.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:39:47 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Maurice Subject: Where is JP anyway? Message:

How come JP never posts here? I heard he was one of the first outspoken exes in Montreal. What a character, 'dat one 'dere. 'Tabernac. I remember him good from 'da ashram in Ottawa 'dere. N'est-ce pas? Oh yeah, inimtidation. Shit, Maurice, I've been trying to get intimidated for four years now! No luck. (Mind you, up to 10 or so years ago it might have been a different story). Thanks for the pics, by the way.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 00:06:17 (GMT) From: Dave Email: vpost3@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: The threats are serious Message:

The threats are serious and I know this from painful, first hand experience. What happens is that if they find out who you are and then find where you're hiding out, they will invite you up to one of their houses and suggest you watch a video of Maharaji or perhaps listen to some devotional music. It can be a terrifying ordeal and it requires great courage to live with this threat constantly hanging over your head.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 13:39:56 (GMT) From: The South Eastern Quoll Email: I nearly peed my pants!!!! To: Dave Subject: The serious are Threats? Message:

Gotta love you Dave!

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 18:57:58 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Dave Subject: The threats are serious - not arti again? owww(nt) Message:

The threats are serious - not arti again? owww(nt)

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 19:15:45 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The psychology/psychosis of the Guru mentality Message:

The psychology/psychosis of the Guru mentality: Maharaji (1971) says: 'I came here for benefit of you. I left my school. I left everything to give you something. I have come here to give you something. I have come here to give you something. The people who have taken, I have given them something. Now I am expecting something that they will give me. And if they haven't got devotion to give, can they give love to me? And if no love, okay. Can they be obliged to me? Now what does that tell us about his motive?

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 22:21:52 (GMT) From: Stonor Email: None To: cq Subject: Guruspeak is beginning to remind me of . . . Message:

WARNING: Only glance briefly at the text above! Guruspeak is beginning to remind me of . . . (where is my copy of 1984?) I visited the Sai Baba(or another of those types) site a while ago. They all sound the same. Just reading it messes with your mind. And I am beginning to catch a glimmer ot the effect it must have had (and is having) on peoples minds if they read/listen to it long enough - even through some of the posts here. As I've said, mental pollution/poison. Sorry Jim, couldn't read more than the first of the Satguru posts. I have to keep my distance from that stuff - it really does hurt my brain just reading it!!!!!

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 17:59:25 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Stonor Subject: Guruspeak is beginning to remind me of . . . Message:

And not just the length of time, but the regularity. Certainly in the mid-seventies I knew plenty of people going to 'satsang' 6/7 evenings a week, and that's without being in the 'ashram' with everything extra that entailed.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 19:03:16 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: hamzen Subject: 'And if no love, okay. Can they be obliged to me?' Message:

'And if no love, okay. Can they be obliged to me?' And if no obligation ...? ... spare change???

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 19:45:34 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: cq Subject: Maha the monster Meglomaniac Message:

This really sounds like the unconditional love of God!!!

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 19:41:18 (GMT) From: Q Email: None To: cq Subject: psychology/psychosis of the trapped mentality Message:

What would it take to realize: no gratitude, no debt? Furthermore, if gratitude, only that exact expression of it that you desire. Here is a new opportunity: to do gratitude & not do guilt.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:12:08 (GMT) From: Daneane Email: None To: Q Subject: Wow, I would have never gotten that. Message:

Crazy me, I interpreted it as 'I shave my back and sell off the hair whenever I need a new toy.'

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:00:25 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Q Subject: psychology/psychosis of the trapped mentality Message:

Q: Your post isn't too clear (then neither are many of mine), though no doubt it felt good to express yourself. To understand the gist of your message, I have to ask: are you questioning how what I once thought of as unconditional love and eternal gratitude was turned into a sense of debt toward the guru? Or does your post refer to how to 'do gratitude' (interesting use of the language) without it becoming a guilt trip? Please DO clarify, if possible. Chris

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:19:34 (GMT) From: Q Email: None To: cq Subject: the savvy guru consumer Message:

Guilt is a great temptation. Gratitude is easily identified with duty-obligation-sacrifice-self-immolation. It is not. It need not be. What is required is a line-item return to sender. Doable?

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:34:30 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Q Subject: 'line-item return to sender' ? Non comprehende ... Message:

'line-item return to sender' ? Non comprehende LEARNING THE LANGUAGE A missionary who had spent years showing a tribe of natives how to farm and build things to be self-sufficient gets word that he is to return home. He realizes that the one thing he never taught the natives was how to speak English, so he takes the chief and starts walking in the forest. He points to a tree and says to the chief, 'This is a tree.' The chief looks at the tree and grunts, 'Tree.' The missionary is pleased with the response. They walk a little farther and the padre points to a rock and says, 'This is a rock.' Hearing this, the chief looks and grunts, 'Rock.' The padre is really getting enthusiastic about the results when he hears a rustling in the bushes. As he peeks over the top, he sees a couple in the midst of heavy romantic activity. The padre is really flustered and quickly responds, 'Riding a bike.' The chief looks at the couple briefly, pulls out his blowgun and kills them. The padre goes ballistic and yells at the chief that he has spent years teaching the tribe how to be civilized and kind to each other, so how could he just kill these people in cold blood that way? The chief replied, 'My bike.' PS I asked Bob Dobbs 'Return to sender?' Answer: 'very doubtful'.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:44:27 (GMT) From: Q Email: None To: cq Subject: Take what you can use... Message:

...leave the rest; aka: Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21); aka: line-item return to sender.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 20:47:01 (GMT) From: Q Email: None To: cq Subject: ps Message:

for a freer discussion of this go to Anything Goes

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:01:09 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Q Subject: ps I did. Freer? Or too many cooks? (nt) Message:

ps I did. Freer? Or too many cooks? (nt)

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 14:28:19 (GMT) From: Media Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Reporter's memories of Millenium Message:

Do a search for +'robert scheer' +venusians or go to: http://www.robertscheer.com/1_natcolumn/97_columns/040197.htm

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:00:41 (GMT) From: Blood Boils Email: None To: Media Subject: Reporter's memories of Millenium...good one Message:

Whatever happened to Rennie Davis? Anyone know?

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:23:53 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Blood Boils Subject: Rennie Message:

Blood Boils, I found the Robert Scheer article while researching the present whereabouts of Rennie Davis. I have emailed Mr. Scheer inviting him to further reminisce with us here at ex-premie.org if he so desires. I have also found out Rennie's current address and have also written to him with an invite to participate here if he wishes. I have also contacted Joe Anctil with a similar invitation. I have sent them copies of the first introductory pages of this website and have let them know that there is no pressure to contribute. If anybody knows of any other interesting/interested peoples' current address, let me know, and I will send them an invite. All I know about Rennie is that he has recently lectured on environmental issues. I sort of doubt he will be interested in contributing here, since he left long ago and probably feels only embarassment about the whole thing.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:15:59 (GMT) From: Jimmy Fitz Email: None To: Way Subject: Rennie, Life Insurance and that Eastern shit Message:

I am sure that everyone knows that Rennie Davis was selling life insurance and other investments up and down the Colorado foothills during, say, the mid to late '80s? A few years ago I met a normie who did have Rennie as a frequent salesman guest at his place of business in a Denver suburb whom I shall refer to as Mr. Anonymous. Anyway, Mr. Anonymous said that Rennie used to be into 'Eastern shit.' Thank god, I had neglected to mention my connection to Eastern shit, which at the time was still active.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:29:39 (GMT) From: Blood Boils Email: None To: Way Subject: Nice work....activist (nt) Message:

1111111

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 06:46:31 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Phew! This is tough at times! Message:

I thought de-programming myself would be as easy as taking out the garbage. It's quite interesting that my leaving the cult coincided so exactly with my aquisition of a computer system. The first thing my children did was borrow loads of demo games and program them in. I started getting lots of error messages. Friends advised the removal of all the games and other demo software. So I go to add/remove programs and click, click, they're gone. No they're not! Apparently some elements could not be removed automatically and wiil have to be removed manually! Well that describes quite well what's been happening to me this last week or so.These elements of Hindu programming which are so deeply imbedded in me are having to be surgically removed. Although I haven't been posting , I've been 'lurking', enjoying reading the posts and learning more.I see that the people here who cause the extremely fiery reactions in me, are the ones to learn my biggest lessons from and listen to very carefully. Much of the beleif structure for my life has been inserted by Maha and other spiritual philosophies.Those stubborn vestiges of programming can be extremely tough to remove.I often feel that my whole foundations are being destroyed. Ouch! This forum is fabulous, warts and all. It has been extraordinarily beneficial to me and I thank everyone, including the premies. Especially those of you I've clashed with at times. I have posted some crap here and it's been pointed out to me quite strongly! It was uncomfortable at times. Thanks especially to the logical lads and lasses. I haven't really lived my life on a level of logic and clear thinking , prefering instead to dream up a romantic idea of life. This has got me into all sorts of trouble, including 'the cult'. Mr Rawat took me for a ride and I'm so glad to have jumped off his merry go round. Like stopping smoking it can be hellish but it makes sense to quit. Maha actually screwed me up a lot more than I was willing to admit.I have in fact been living in denial. It is an insidious cult , perhaps somewhat more subtle and disguised than some but still a cult nevertheless. I am grateful for all of your contributions ( yes even yours Joey)but I especially thank Jim the rotweiller for keeping on at me in the witness stand and exposing me until my story and Maha's disintegrated. Thanks Jimbo. Hal the recently released.

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Date: Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 03:46:59 (GMT) From: bb Email: None To: Hal Subject: YOU are fast.. I took at least 2 years. (nt) Message:

eryue

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 17:54:06 (GMT) From: SB Email: None To: Hal Subject: Phew! This is tough at times! Message:

Hi Hal!! Thanks for your honesty. Same with me here...and it is so good to wake up and know it's over!! :))))) Take care... S

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:47:09 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Hal Subject: Phew! This is tough at times! Message:

Thanks, Hal. You've just completed phase 1. No, but seriously, if you haven't already, I think you should get a copy of The Guru Papers. Really good self-deprogramming tool.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:09:40 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim , when do I receive my Message:

GM free product label?

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 17:00:28 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Hal Subject: Look for two circles and two dots Message:

Hal: According to my young daughter, you should look for two circles and two dots..... it goes something like this: 'Circle, circle, dot, dot.... double-strength cootie shot' Hey, don't blame me!!!!! SHE'S the 'master' of innoculation! he he he :-)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 01:24:38 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Hal Subject: When? WHEN!? What kind of a question is that? Message:

Hal, We're not into labels around here. We're not into labels, we're not into judgment and we're certainly not into blame. Sorry.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 02:15:54 (GMT) From: Helen Email: None To: Hal Subject: Phew! This is tough at times! Message:

At first I thought you addressed Jim as 'Jim the rototiller'. That too, eh? DOn't be too hard on yourself. You can't change your whole personality nor should you unless you want to. I too have found the forum to be a tremendous force for change in my life. It sometimes caused me such disequilibrium I had to stay away from it, but for the most part it has been a turning point for me as well. Take care and love yourself, fuzzy-headedness and all. From one fuzzy head to another

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 11:47:35 (GMT) From: JHB Email: None To: Hal Subject: Great Post, Hal! Message:

I've described this forum in the past as a battlefield, which I think reflects the battle to rid ourselves of the cult programming. Glad you're winning the battle! John.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 11:28:09 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Hal Subject: Well done that man !! Message:

Its very inspiring to read what you posted - old wives tell tales that mandrake roots scream when you pull 'em up - well unearthing the subtle deflections of premie logic and avoidance is one of the toughest things I have ever faced - and sometimes I can only manage a little at a time. But there is no rush. And sometimes people like you inspire me to forge ahead - and not to lose heart. Thankyou Hal and thankyou all. I refuse to use the term 'lurk' - what I do is much more wonderful, educational and dynamic: I cruise, I window shop, I flirt, I inhale !!

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 13:54:28 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Loaf Subject: Well done that man !! Message:

Dear Loaf, 'Thankyou Hal and thankyou all. I refuse to use the term 'lurk' - what I do is much more wonderful, educational and dynamic: I cruise, I window shop, I flirt, I inhale !!' This is pretty well stated also Loaf! :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:04:57 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Hal Subject: Phew! This is tough at times! Message:

Dear Hal, There is something to be learned here. Maybe something different for me then for you and one of the best things about it is, as long as you don't give up, you can take a break or just lurk, and let it all work on you still continuing to grow from the experience of opinions and personalities and when you are stronger you can come back and test it out. Then you can cycle through again. You have done a lot of cleaning out of yourself recently, mind and lungs and that is no easy task. You've done good hard work in facing yourself and I am happy for you and I can tell by your post that it feels damn good to you too. :) Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 07:17:08 (GMT) From: Face pilesof trials with Email: None To: Hal Subject: smiles...it's riles them to believe you Message:

perceive the evil web they weave..... so keep on thinking free...(enter guitars)

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 07:08:39 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Hal Subject: But it gets better with each onion layer peeled Message:

back, hang on there Hal. The sense of freedom, of being able to breathe freely without the invisible premie monitor in the head gets more & more liberating.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 06:59:12 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Hal Subject: You are lucky you aren't female Message:

Every one will say welcome back Hal Welcome back Hal

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:12:33 (GMT) From: Hal Email: None To: Selene Subject: Selene and all on the thread........ Message:

I'm going all mushy . Thanks again for your encouragement. Hal

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 20:55:02 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Hal Subject: Selene and all on the thread........ Message:

It's good to have you back. I can relate to your comings and goings. They keep saying it gets easier. For me it got easier as soon as I started posting. That was when I knew for certain it was all over between me and M and that wacky world of his. As far as the rest getting easier, I'm still waiting on that one :)

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 03:26:36 (GMT) From: Harry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hey Mike............ot Message:

I live in Australia, and we don't have Elk here, but we do have Sambar Deer and a big buck can be around 13, maybe 14 hands high, and if you know anything about horses, then this is the size of an average one. Check this out

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:27:48 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Harry Subject: OOOOpppsss (ot) Message:

Harry: For some reason I thought you were in the US. The size you described would not be a deer anywhere here. The elk here, though, get quite large. This holds particularly true here in AZ. During the season, I saw two females that were well over 900 lbs...... The big males really get huge here, too. The antlers alone can easily weigh over 100 lbs!!!!!! Absolutely amazing animals. Anywho, thanks for correcting my misinformation concerning your locale. That DOES make a difference.... he he he :-)

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 16:21:32 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Harry Subject: Hey Harry.... a question(ot) Message:

Do you know the scientific name of the deer to which you refer? There are, in fact, very close relatives to the elk in europe and elsewhere. I believe they are called wapiti in europe (not entirely certain of the common name). Genetically, they are almost indistinguishable from the elk on this continent. Elk are, as you would have suspected, in the 'deer' family (as are moose and caribou). Ever seen a moose? NOW THAT'S A BIG DEER! Interested in hearing from you.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 23:52:58 (GMT) From: Harry Email: None To: Mike Subject: Hey Harry.... a question(ot) Message:

Hey Mike. The name is 'curvus herculean', named after Professor Bart Herculean who was the first white man to see the rare, but now extinct, Spotted Rhino. The only large animal, besides the Red Kangaroo, in Oz is the Yowie, but they have been nearly shot out and are getting hard to see, although a friend of mine was riding his dirt-bike home through the bush awhile ago, after smoking some good weed at a mate's place, and he swears he saw one sitting on a dam wall. Maybe their making a comeback. Cheers

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 04:47:30 (GMT) From: Harry Email: None To: Mike Subject: PS Message:

Mike, I meant to give you this link. Check this out.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 08:08:56 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Harry Subject: Hey Mike............ot Message:

Dear Harry, Well they must be ellusive because they have one crappy picture there! I can't see, or is that because I need my glasses! :) Was the poor thing dead? Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 09:23:59 (GMT) From: Harry Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Hey Mike............ot Message:

Hi Robyn, the darn things don't like getting their picture taken. I posted this one 'cause it's a picture of a live one. All the others were dead, with their head being held up by some guy who would of looked at home in the movie 'Deliverance'. I've seen a couple of really big ones around here and it's a sight. Cheerio Harry

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 10:34:41 (GMT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Harry Subject: Hey Mike............ot Message:

Hey Harry, Funny you mentioned 'Deliverance'! Someone used that term to describe some of the people in this area and I had to laugh because it is true. They are fewer in number now or just well hidden but I remember when they weren't. It is actually probably a little of both. The 'history' of these people use to be taught in the schools here in this county. I bet they don't anymore. I remember when I lived WAY out in the country and the woman in the last house on the mountain called me and wanted to know if I wanted to come to her place and see a bear. I told her I didn't have to, I saw lots of bear but she thought it was more of an eventful sight because it was dead! Makes you wonder. Love, Robyn

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 02:01:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hey babe, wanna have a REAL good time? Message:

Ivete Belfort Mattos: from ELK -- Wild and exotic From Sao Paolo, Brazil Today, I was reading Enjoyinglife and I had lot of fun. Everyone synchronized with this unique happiness inside. People, that I will never meet, sharing their feelings with me. People of distant places. Then, I was reminded the first time that I visited Alaska and China. When the local inhabitants discovered that I was Brazilian, they were astonished and looked at me as a 'wild and exotic' person. I was also looking at them in the same way. Now, I see beyond that feeling and recognise the heart speaking crossing all frontiers. Thank you to permit me to share this experience with so many people.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 00:26:54 (GMT) From: Bobby Email: None To: Everyone Subject: OT - one for diehard freaks Message:

Terence McKenna died last week of brain cancer. Here's his thoughts on death and dying. Very relateable. Hits of interview with Terence

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 02:22:27 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Bobby Subject: I used to love that guy Message:

I've got a band practise now so can't read the interview just yet but I used to really get off on TM. In later years, after I got more impressed by science, I started to look at him a bit askance, saw him as something of an excellent wordsmith and fast talker who spun amazing thoughts out of a few crushed neurons. A real dream weaver, I guess. I lost interest in his pitch but what a pitch it was! Some friends went down to meet him and Shulgin about five years ago. They found him eminently approachable too. Too bad. Thanks Bobby.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 07:02:08 (GMT) From: hamzen Email: None To: Jim Subject: Too bad, an interesting character Message:

Certainly kept mushroom culture in the eye of the press. But stimulating as he was for some people I know, Schulgin I find more sensible/rational. Definitely do some shrooms for him this autumn though.

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 21:35:35 (GMT) From: Rrated-X Email: None To: Everyone Subject: m's Scare Tactics, fear of dying Message:

Most of m's videos are just boring idle talk and scare tactics. M often says that this is your only chance, one lifetime that's it. Is this all true? I haven't read many spiritual books lately, but I always thought we evolved, then died, rested a bit, then reincarnate and continue on. Sampuranan (one of m's close helpers) once gave the analogy of a dolphin swimming in the ocean, he jumps out of the water and dives back in, and there's a hoop floating around somewhere in the same ocean, what are the chances of the dolphin jumping through the hoop? Pretty slim, now what are the chances of the dolphin jumping twice through the hoop? Well according to m, that's how rare a chance for a human life is. Pretty good scare and you only have one master (him) and one knowledge (his) to fully realize god, and become 100% fulfilled. I used to drive back from programs just hoping that I would make it home alive! Some premies when making plans would say, 'I will be doing that next week... if am still alive...'

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 22:29:30 (GMT) From: G Email: None To: Rrated-X Subject: Rawat's contradictory statements about death Message:

Prem Rawat, the so-called 'Maharaji', has made many contradictory statements about what happens after we die. In the old days, he talked about reincarnation. Not only that, but gave detailed fanciful accounts about it. I'm sure Jim or JM or someone else here has quotes. One time he said that maybe we were devotees before. Another time he said 'Is there reincarnation, in my opinion, no.' Another time when asked about death, he said 'Something continues.' Another time he said 'What happens when you die? I don't know. At least I'm being honest.' (for a change) In the 'Unique Event' he said something like 'With each life, if you can just move an inch closer.' In the same video, he said 'When you die, it all ends.' I'm sure there's a lot more. Now you could say that maybe he's doing all this to free people from their concepts. Here's a simpler explanation: He doesn't know what the hell he's talking about and doesn't want to admit it. And yes, he talks about it to scare people. That's why he keeps talking about time, watches, clocks, how time is ticking away, slipping away. Maybe he's also obsesssed, I don't know. He's got this VERY expensive watch collection, which he called 'a bad habit'. A premie named Mili even tried this scare tactic here with a link to www.deathclock.com.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 00:44:12 (GMT) From: Blood Boils Email: None To: G Subject: 'Die and find out' Message:

I remember one program in which the masterful answer to a question about reincarnation was given...'Die and find out.' The major fuel used by every religion in the world is the fear human beings have about death. Every religion describes the method of safe passage to the promised land. M seems to be able to avoid having to discuss any real subjects by joking or humiliating the person who asks the question. I knew a beautiful lady who asked some question at a D.C. program several years ago. M humiliated her. About a year later she died in an early morning in a car wreck on the beltway. All the premies gathered at a kind of wake for her. The group was really at a loss, no one knew what to think or say or do. This lady had remained embarassed by M's remarks to her until her death.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 01:19:26 (GMT) From: someone there Email: None To: Blood Boils Subject: that exchange Message:

She was having problems. He said there was nothing/little he could do for her. He suggested that she get professional help (or therapy or psychiatric help, I don't remember). I didn't sense any compassion from him. I sensed that she was very upset and embarrassed by what he said and how he said it.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 01:41:44 (GMT) From: Blood Boils Email: None To: someone there Subject: that exchange-:- trying to remember the details Message:

interesting to hear your take on it.

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 17:33:37 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Mike D., what's your PROFESSIONAL opinion? Message:

Last night something occurred to me. In recent years, you've developed a consulting business based on, as I understand it, models and theories you have for effective business management. I understand, from talking with you a bit on point, from looking at your web site and from just 'making an ass out of u and me' that you spend a lot of time thinking through interpersonal dynamics in organizations and what can make those dynamics more effective and positive. I'm sure that some, if not a lot, of your focus is on communication and accountability. Would you hazard an opinion on how well Maharaji scores in any such category? Is he an effective manager? A responsible one? How would you appraise his communication habits? If he were your client (again?) what might you say to him? Adn then this is interesting too: Guy comes into your office and wants your help. Claims that he's got the 'Knowledge of the soul' everyone's been waiting for. He's got it -- he's the only one who does -- and he wants to distribute it worldwide. At any point in your consultation would you actually consider asking him who, what, when where and why he's 'the man' or would you simply work on the client's premise and go from there?

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 11:30:22 (GMT) From: Loaf Email: None To: Jim Subject: A very refreshing question !!(nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 14:12:35 (GMT) From: Thanks to Jim's Grace Email: None To: Everyone Subject: here is Alta Loma Terrace Satsang! Message:

Thank you Jim for this great service to Truth ! Maharaji finally agreed to talk about Satguru Unvaluable gem .... Jean-Michel

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:57:44 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Thanks to Jim's Grace Subject: Last part ('Dedicate. Just be in my order.....') Message:

What faith I have, I can't describe it with words. I can't describe with words. I was so much confused before I got this Knowledge, so much confused, that remember, sometimes I used to hate the works which my father was doing! I used to hate them. I used to hate God; I used to hate all the creation of God. 'What is this? Nothing. Nonsense.' But as soon as I got this Knowledge, I even started loving my enemies! So how can I repay Him? And at what moment He has saved me, I can't say. Each and every moment He has saved me. That's why I call Him a Saviour. There is a place in Bihar: Devaria. And there were some people that were jhst hating -- they never wanted anything, because they themselves possessed a religion; they were themselves starting a sect. So they threw stones at me. From everywhere, stone was coming; baksdie, front, side and side, everywhere. But how was I saved -- how can I tell you? Not even a scratch on my head! Mahatma Ji was there and ask him what was the condition there. Stones, stones, stones, stones, stones! Police standing and laughing. So who saved me? Who saved? Guru. Draupadi first looed at her brother when Duryodhana was taking her sari. First looked on her brothers; brothers' heads were down. King; down. Mother; head down. Father; head down. When everybody's head was down, same time Krishna was saying to Rukmuni, 'Rukmuni, such a great burden is passing by Draupadi.' So Rukmuni says, 'If you know that why don't you go and save her?' Krishna says she is not calling me from her internal heart.' Then, only little, little sari was left, and everybody was -- the man who was taking out the sari was being mroe and more cruel. Then she closes her eyes and calls, 'Krishna, now save me!' Not even a second -- second is more -- Krishna came and extended her sari. That man is taking out, taking out, taking out, hand started paining, out of breath, but sari is not coming. Whne did Krishna come to save Draupadi? When she called. It is not that: that I will coem in 1978. I can go and come. If you will call me, from internal heart. Whenever a Satguru has come, He has asked for devotion. He is very hungry; He just wants devotion. Devotion, devotion, devotion. Water of love, and food of devotion. He wants that, and that's all. But these days there is a very hufe thing, there is this mind. Every time: 'No, no, no, no, no, no.' Some good things -- 'No.' Some good things -- 'No.' 'No, no, no, no, no, no.' Troubling us. So what more should I say? I haven't got any words -- how can I describe Him? How can I describe His praise when great intellect can't describe? I am not qualified. I am uneducated. How can I describe His Grace, His glory? Tulisdas was not able. Many and many people were not able to describe just His glory. Just glory. So much glorious! So much, so much, so much glorious! This world hates Him, this world throws a stone on Him. He takes that stone and gives them a flower. 'If you have me stone, forget about it. Now there is a flower for you.' Poeple threw so many things. He said, 'Okay. You gave me stone, forget about it. There is a flower for you now. Take that. Forget what you hvae done before.' This is His nature, so much glorious. How cna we describe it? How can our intellect, our small intellect, describe it? So many intellectual people were not able to describe it. If you see a photo of Ram and Hanuman, Han uman always sits like this (facing Lord Ram, hands folded, always read to get up). Why? He says that 'Perfect is standing before me, and I am wasting one century of my life, more than one century! Perfect is standing before me and I am not looking at Him! What cna there be worse for me?' So if you also love Him, He will save you. He is the Saviour of whole world. He has to save. He will save us. So remember, we can't describe it; we have got very small intellect. We just sing some glorious songs about Him, and some words, some words, few words, adn we think that is the glory that we have sung. Not at all. That is not it. We can't sing His glory at all. The writers, when they just thought about Him, they left their pencils, paper and just -- they were amazed to see His glory in this world. So mcuh glorious! Just for one second, one moment. Look at this nature, and it's beuatiful. Today science has taken it and made the name 'chlorophyll,' but from where the chlorophyll came? Any wire? No. That blue heaven and green earth -- who made that? Today we go and enjoy the beautiful sunset. But we should be enjoying first He who is making that sunset, who has made that sun and those beautiful mountains that make it more and more beautiful. First enjoy Him, His glory. So what I have said is very little. Nothing at all. When I will again come, you see, even then I just can't describe it. If you have any more questions about Guru, just be clarified. You have to give Him -- you have to give your whole devotion to Him, and nobody else. God is God. God was so cruel with you, bringing all sufferings. Now Guru is kind. He is curing all those sufferings. Give your devotion to Him. Because you were searching, 'God, God, god!' and just echo was coming and nothing else. But when Guru came, He said, 'Okay, why are you suffering? tell me your sufferings.' He heard those; cured them. And questions about what I have just said? Yes? Guru Maharaj Ji, how does one give his mind to you? Dedicate. Just be in my order; that is dedication. What I tell, do that. What I say, do that. That is called perfect dedication. By saying 'dedication' -- anybody can say 'dedication,' Yes? If you leave tomorrow and you will be gone seven years until 1978 -- my mind is not clean and I can't see you in all your glory yet. Can you just for a brief second open my mind to your glory? Don't worry. Do meditation; it will be cleaned. Yes? You said to give all devotion to you. Does that exclude earthly love, love between people? Is that a different thing? What you have to do -- only that love which comes from the soul. That which comes from the mind, give it to people who have got mind. But what comes from soul, give it to soul. Any more questions? Yes? When will I receive Knowledge? How many people want Knowledge? (many raise hands) Yes, okay. So you have understood the glory of Guru? As much as we can. In meditation -- that is how you ask for us to give you devotion? Do meditation and devotion will be created. Maharaj Ji, a friend asked me to ask you -- so I can tell him -- if anything matters. Is anything important? Most important thing is -- know why you have come in this world. Without knowing why you have come in this world, you are wasting a single minute. Seems to be that you are making full utilization of that; remember, you are wasting it. Proper and full utilization of it is by doing meditation. Yes? What about devotion by sevice to other people? Well, first have the macine of devotion. First have that machine which will create devotion; then talk about devotion. Yes? If we're suffering -- does suffering show us the bad so we can appreciate the good of God? Suffering? You can't show the good of God. Just what you can give towards God is devotion. You can't show towards God what you ahve created. Just what oyu can give towards God is devotion, giving devotions. Some devotion will be carried on by meditation. Meditation, then devotion. M for medicine and M for meditation; the nature of medicine is to cure, andthe nature of meditation is to cure.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 13:24:49 (GMT) From: aoa ji Email: None To: Thanks to Jim's Grace Subject: here is Alta Loma Terrace Satsang! Message:

Jesus. It always helps me to read his words in the context of knowing that he was often thinking of Shri Hans when he spoke of Satguru. That was the beauty of the system he inherited; he could speak of 'Guru Maharaj Ji' truly as a separate individual, even though (of course) he was also speaking of the present GMJ, who was himself. It's a great system because you can lay it on thicker and heavier as you go along, and whenever your -- expansions -- get too much to bear, you just say them of this other Guru Maharaj Ji (your father who left you when you were eight years old) -- and you can pile it on as high as you like, because the way the mind works is it can imagine that lofty quality in another person (as we imagined it in Sant Ji) but it can't imagine it so easily in its own personhood (Sant Ji has great trouble imagining it in Sant Ji, but can imagine it in Shri Maharaj Ji). I'm guessing that when the Pope (at least in dramatic cinema!) refers to himself as 'We' it is something along the same lines. Anyway -- I was ready to send Guru Maharaj Ji five dollars, when I read the Alta Loma satsang, five minutes ago. It's beautiful. It's also fantasy.

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:19:17 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Thanks to Jim's Grace Subject: Okay, okay, I guess I'll finish it now Message:

Thanks for putting that up, JM. Yeah, it's a good one alright. One last fairly lengthy section to go but I'll do it today or tomorrow. BTW, small point of correction for your very impressive english (which I can't remember if I'm supposed to capitalize, so there): 'unvaluable' means worthless. 'invaluable' means priceless (i.e. too good to be priced). No big deal. It's just that my mother reads this forum sometimes, you know. :)

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:33:12 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: But WHEN is your mother going to be ready? Message:

for knowledge ? What's the point for inviting instructors if aspirants are not ready ? ....

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 17:01:32 (GMT) From: Jim Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Ah, the problem: I'm not sure if she's ready Message:

She just got remarried and I think she's still going through whatever she has to go through about the world you know. Besides, her new husband isn't a premie. I don't even think he meditates. In FACT, they both eat meat!

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:19:10 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Way and JM Subject: 'unvalueable gem indeed!' (the pun) LOL (nt) Message:

ha hah hah

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 14:49:51 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: JM Subject: To JM Message:

JM, Salut. Vous faites un jeu de mots en Anglais. C'est tres bien. Savez-vous lequel?

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 15:07:38 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: No, please tell me! (nt) Subject: To JM Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 15:08:45 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: No please tell me! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:24:37 (GMT) From: Way Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: No please tell me! (nt) Message:

You use 'unvaluable', where 'invaluable' would be proper here, but your pun, whether intended or not, makes the sarcasm crystal clear. The in's and un's of English are a small way of getting back at the French for their le's and la's - whoever heard of nouns having gender!

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 16:30:47 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Way Subject: Re: No please tell me! Message:

This is the same thing in French, and it's a way of leaving amibuity in a sarcastic way. We say 'inestimable', which means both very valuable, and also that it's value can't be estimated (which obviously means it can also be of no value!) I don't realize how sarcastic I get sometimes .... It WAS intended!

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 19:19:59 (GMT) From: cq Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Hang loose JM, (or is that unloose?) ??? (nt) Message:

Hang loose JM, (or is that unloose?) ??? (nt)

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 08:31:19 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: freewheeling@bigfoot.com To: Everyone Subject: G vs. E (ot) Message:

Jerry: At this particular juncture, I'm just looking to cut the founding fathers down to size. They deserve the adulation they've been awarded as much as Maharaji or Reverend Moon. People who believe they do are just as brainwashed as the disciples of these latter two. I'm sorry, but as off topic that this appears to be I really can't let this stand. I've been engaged in a project for some time to determine whether we humans have the discernment to tell the difference between good and bad leadership, and I think I've come up with a few insights. I don't think we can pit good and evil against one another in so simple a formula. To begin, we have always had two revolutionary models, and two sets of achetypal leaders, that both came to prominence in the 18th century. One vilified wealth and privilege, and equated it with evil. They saw the poor, by contrast, as inherently virtuous. It was an uncomplicated vision that inspired burning passion. These men have had far more influence than Washington, Jefferson, Adams or Madison. Indeed, the very terms we use to describe ourselves politically: left/right, liberal/conservative, etc. all were inspired by the enrages and the indulgents who, at the 'Oath of the Tennis Court' began the 'inevitable' process that vanquished the great absolute monarchs and aristocracies of Europe in the name of 'liberty, equality and fraternity.' And it was these men who were on the mind of Hamilton when he urged of the need to 'repress domestic faction and insurrection... The tempestuous situation from which Massachusetts has scarcely emerged evinces that dangers of this kind are not merely speculative.' So, you may have indeed convinced me that Maharaji isn't so bad, by likening him to Washington, Madison, Jefferson, Adams and Hamilton. For these 'oppressors' clearly did not have the sense of social justice possessed by 'the men of the people' like Danton, and that model of egalitarian revolutionary splendor, Robespierre. Yup, there are worse than Maharaji, that's for sure. And, fortunately, there are better. For whatever the intentions and flaws of Madison, Adams, and Jefferson (and they were, indeed, men not statues)... their actual legacy was that the 'commoners' did in fact ascend to their level in greater numbers than ever before in history, under the system of 'cross-cutting alliances' (Madison) that they had created; as the men liberated by Danton and Robespierre descended into a hell that would not be seen again until the revolutions modeled on their work bloomed like flowers of evil in twentieth century Germany and Russia. So, can we tell 'good' from 'bad' now, or do we still think heaven on earth is as close as the end of all authority? --Scott

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 13:34:30 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: G vs. E (ot) Message:

Scott, This isn't about good verses evil. It is about the poor being oppressed and exploited by the rich, including by the founding fathers. There's a wealth of historical evidence that this is so. You just don't want to acknowledge it. The founding fathers did not have the interests of the masses in mind when they formed a new nation. It was their own interests they were after. Not a one of them was John Brown. Don't kid yourself that any of them were. And there's no reason to bring the failure of the French Revolution into this to elevate the success of the American one. You might as well say that Maharaji is a saint compared to Jim Jones. It only provides a smokescreen for what, otherwise, would be glaring failures. I've been poor, real poor, and I know from first hand experience that there's some really rotten scum at the bottom of that barrel. So, I'm not extolling the virtues of the poor, just pointing out the sins of the wealthy, particularly those of our founding fathers, which we were never taught about in school. what did you learn in school today dear little boy of mine? I learned our government must be strong. It's always right and never wrong... Tom Paxton, 1963

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 15:45:12 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jerry Subject: G vs. E (ot) Message:

Jerry: This isn't about good verses evil. It is about the poor being oppressed and exploited by the rich, including by the founding fathers. There's a wealth of historical evidence that this is so. You just don't want to acknowledge it. The founding fathers did not have the interests of the masses in mind when they formed a new nation. The very language you use --'oppressed masses,' etc. comes from the wealth of tradition running from the French Revolution, through Hegel and from him through Marx. When you look at a set of events as decisive and far reaching as the American Revolution you incorporate evidence from all sides, not just that evidence that happens to agree with your grand design. Whatever 'wealth' of historical evidence that you claim supports the contention that the leaders of the American Revolution were 'oppressors' it was clearly compiled by those from the 'other' revolutionary tradition, without the slightest interest in actually understanding a history that concludes with anything other than Hegel's or Marx's 'historical necessity.' I have no problem with those historians who point out that the founders were merely gifted, and flawed, human beings. That's merely prudence and reality. Whatever was fashioned by the founders it did work, avoiding the pitfalls of factionalism that were clear to these un-saintly, but gifted, men. Not a one of them was John Brown. Well, since John Brown had hardly been born when Jefferson and Adams died on July 4, 1826, 50 years to the day after signing the Declaration of Independence, I think you have a solid case that none of them were. However, George Mason freed his slaves after putting his name to the document, and other signators either didn't own slaves or freed them by or at the end of their lives (including Jefferson). Perhaps this doesn't make them saints, but Americans have not been inclined to follow saints anyway. That's the point. And there's no reason to bring the failure of the French Revolution into this to elevate the success of the American one. You might as well say that Maharaji is a saint compared to Jim Jones. It only provides a smokescreen for what, otherwise, would be glaring failures. I don't think it's necessary to 'elevate' the American Revolution at the expense of the French. The success of one, and the failure of the other are obvious. The difference between the revolutionary traditions, and their impacts, are perhaps not so obvious. What this is about is discrimination vs the ideology of absolutes, whether we can exercise sufficient judgment about leaders to avoid the seeming 'purity of motive' that is a monstrosity in disguise. (Not merely 'social injustice,' mind you, but something far worse.) I don't know how to compare Maharaji with Jim Jones (surely sainthood is a word I'd not use for either, not being a follower), but I do know that they each sold their own version of the 'end of history' and were regarded as saints (or more) by those who followed them. This alone, to my mind, puts them far more in the tradition of Robespierre, Stalin, and Hitler than Adams or Jefferson. --Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 03:23:54 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Scott, can't let you get away with this Message:

Scott, your history is a little off when you said: ...other signators either didn't own slaves or freed them by or at the end of their lives (including Jefferson) Almost all the signators from the South owned slaves, if not all of them. And you are wrong about Jefferson. By 1820 Jefferson owned 267 slaves and had become an ardent advocate of the expansion of slavery to the western territories. Jefferson was an average slave master who whipped slaves and sold them into the Deep South as examples, to induce other slaves to obey. During his long life, of hundreds of different slaves he owned, he freed only three, and five more at his death -- all blood relatives of his. Washington did not free his slaves upon his death, but agreed to do so upon the death of his wife, who freed the slaves early, because she, with good reason, was in fear of her life. Both men became very wealthy, largely off the institution of slavery. Both Washington and Jefferson had foreign policies that were ardent supporters of slavery, unlike the president in between (Adams) who was not a slaveowner. Whether a president was a slave owner seemed to affect foreign policy as well. Both Jefferson and Washington supported Napoleon and the French planters (including loaning hundreds of thousands of dollars to them) in opposition to the slave uprising in Haiti, while Adams supported the Haitians. Jefferson reversed Adam's policy in support of slavery, probably against the self-interest of the country, because Haiti dominated by Napoleon, would have given France a foothold in the New World.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 04:51:23 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: The 'founding fathers' Message:

Joe: Here are a few passages from interviews done for Ken Burn's documentary on Thomas Jefferson. I was incorrect in the assertion that T.J. freed his slaves on his death, which is a fact difficult to reconcile with the image of him as one of the 'founders.' However, in my frequent arguments with strict constructionists over the second amendment it was my feeling that we are mistaken in failing to adapt the words and principles espoused by the founders to our own times. Some of the founders, including most notably Madison, felt the same way. It seems that even though many of us have come to view them as 'larger than life' they did not see themselves that way. I object to the notion, however, that because they were flawed we must therefore begin to see them as stunted dwarves, as Jerry seems to imply. It is a healthy adult who sees his father for what he is, neither the paragon he emulated in his youth nor the reactionary authoritarian and moral weakling he rejected in his twenties. How do you reconcile this man who distills the essence of the enlightenment in this one remarkable sentence that begins, 'We hold these truths to be self-evident,' and yet could own more than 200 slaves? Well, I think we must beware of the arrogance of modernity, the tendency to think that we are wiser and better than all previous generations. Now, one way of asserting that superior wisdom and superior virtue, which I don't share, is to assume that every man in the past had the freedom and the power to assert all the virtues that we believe in. Jefferson, of course, was not an abolitionist, but he did everything within the framework of his time to assert the evils of slavery. In fact, he—in his draft of the Declaration of Independence—included a provision condemning George the Third for having condoned slavery in this country. And his Notes on Virginia are savage in their strictures on the evils of slavery. But he was not an abolitionist; he was a man of his time, and we must accept his limitation with those of his age. -- Daniel Boorstin What draws you to Thomas Jefferson? The familiar phrase that all men are created equal makes him the fascinating figure that he is. And his life is so complicated and so intertwined with the beginning of who we are as a country that he’s just a man who pulls you to him, this brilliant mind, this far-ranging intellect, this father of liberty, this slave-owner, this agronomist, I mean he’s all of these things...bibliophile, everything. Thomas Jefferson is just one of the fascinating men of our nation, of our world. -- Julian Bond How do you reconcile the fact that this man wrote the magic words of America “All men are created equal“ and yet he owned more than 200 human beings and never saw fit to free them. How do you handle the disparity of race and slaveholding? Jefferson saw African-Americans as noble human beings. In the abstract, he could appreciate the African-American's humanity. We have to understand that Thomas Jefferson occupied a particular moral space and within that moral space, he was a liberal who believed that the most humane thing that could be done with the slavery problem was to re-colonize African-Americans back in Africa. He was not alone in this. James Madison felt similarly. The American Colonization Society was formed for this purpose. And Jefferson wanted slaves to have decent lives. He wanted to be the best slaveholder in America. He could not, however, find the means because he did not think that America was politically ready. Perhaps John Quincy Adams expressed this better than anyone when he said that Jefferson did not have in him the spirit of the martyr. -- Andy Burstein Nothing is more certainly written in the book of fate than that these people are to be free. Nor is it less certain that the two races, equally free, cannot live in the same government. Nature, habit, opinion has drawn indelible lines of distinction between them. It is still in our power to direct the process of emancipation and deportation peaceably and in such slow degree as that the evil will wear off insensibly, and their place be pari passu filled up by free white laborers. -- Thomas Jefferson

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 17:50:15 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The 'founding fathers' Message:

Scott, I agree that historical figures should be seen as whole persons, flaws and all. The problem is that American History textbooks, movies, popular history, Disney, etc., have made people like Jefferson into idols who were completely principled, moral creatures, who believed in democracy as understood in the 20th century, which isn't the case. I think it's more likely that Jefferson subjucated his stated moral problem with slavery with his own desire to be a wealthy American landowner, and his belief that those with money and privilege deserved to have it, and deserved to govery everyone else. And I think he also believed, and understood, the wealth that slavery created for the USA. He knew it was morally wrong, and supported that in the abstract, but when it came to his own life, he wasn't willing to live by those principles. I agree with Jerry also that the founding of the US was based on a principle that those with power, privilege and property, were more deserving to govern everyone else, and they essentially set up a structure that put in place a stratified system in which those with capital not only maintained it, but also made the decisions that directed the country. As I said, a lot of the flowery words came out of the closet later in the Civil War maingly because of Lincoln, (and then went back IN the closet from about 1890 until about 1940, most blatantly under the avowedly white supremecist Wilson), but I don't think that was at all what the 'founding fathers' intended.

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Date: Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 07:20:35 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: The 'founding fathers' Message:

Joe: I agree with Jerry also that the founding of the US was based on a principle that those with power, privilege and property, were more deserving to govern everyone else, and they essentially set up a structure that put in place a stratified system in which those with capital not only maintained it, but also made the decisions that directed the country. Well, look. Again, there were two revolutions at the end of the 18th century and only one was a 'people's revolution.' Bear in mind that until the American Revolution the only challenge to the notion of Monarchy had come from the Scottish Whigs. It was a completely untried form of government. Of the four: Adams, Jefferson, Hamilton and Washington, Jefferson was the more populist. It didn't take long after the party system became established for the Jacksonians to promote a populist insurrection that led to another Whig reaction, and by then the Federalists had become extinct. As things turned out, the 'people's revolution' had rather unfortunate consequences... and helped establish the first in a series of European absolutist dictators and emperors. I think in the long run we were better served by these self-serving elites who affected the nobility of the Scottish gentry, if anything. --Scott

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Date: Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 17:42:24 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The 'founding fathers' Message:

I never suggested that the 'revolution' wasn't successful, I just wanted to emphasize that it was very narrow and only served certain interests. It wasn't until later that it even reached the majority of the people it governed, and of course, it could just as well have gone in another direction. The problem with the American form of democracy in comparison with the later ones in Europe, for example, it that due to being the oldest, it didn't benefit from some of the later advances. For example, to this day we are stuck with 'winner take all' elections, while many European countries, Israel, etc., have proportional representation, which gives a voice to minorities in a way that the American System does not.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 03:22:05 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: Scott, can't let you get away with this Message:

Joe: Hmmm... I was under the distinct impression that Jefferson had freed most, if not all, his slaves at his death. I was also under the impression that he was deeply conflicted about slavery. I suppose this could be 'spin' but then, I don't know the source of your assertions. Well, at least they are 'assertions' rather than 'assessments.' Anyway, Mason was about the most libertarian of the whole bunch, and the leader of the anti-federalist movement... and was the only one to get a divorce from the institution. Odd that he would end up as the champion of 'states rights' which were later used to support segregation. There was a clear division between North and South over the institution of slavery by revolutionary times... and I'm not holding any of these folks (including Mason who was a Virginian) as a paragon. But the principles that came under Jefferson's pen were eventually used to end slavery, and were to haunt the country under 'caste and class' for generations; literally until Gunnar Myrdal wrote *The American Dilemma*. I need to get the source of your assertions about Jefferson. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 16:42:51 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Scott, can't let you get away with this Message:

Also, yes it was Jefferson's statements that Lincoln used to turn the civil war from one about preserving the union to one ending slavery, but it took a major PR campaign on Lincoln's part (a brilliant one, I think, including the Gettysburg Address, IMO the greatest speech in American history), to make that happen. Actually, in the Lincoln/Douglass debates, Lincoln was criticized in the Northern press for suggesting that Negroes were equal to Whites, (that they were 'created equal') and actually backed down from that position. While Lincoln was in the Illinois legislature, he was one of only 5 votes in favor of a resolution of the legislature, endorsing the emancipation of slaves. Although Jefferson said those words, they weren't generally believed or understood, until Lincoln took on the issue directly.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 16:26:05 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The myth about Jefferson Message:

Jefferson wrote many times that he was conflicted about slavery, and that's only natural, considering he authored the 'all men are created equal language' and then was a rather ardent slave-owner, and protector of the institution of slavery, at the same time. Actually, his writings seem to indicate more that he was worried that the country would be headed for an inevitable showdown over the issue, and he was right. There has been a lot written recently about Jefferson's slave-owning and failure to free his slaves upon his death. I can get those sources for you (I don't have them with me at the moment), but even the recent PBS documentary on Jefferson said the same thing. Sure there was a division between 'north' and 'south' on the issue of slavery, because many of the northern states had made slavery illegal, not so much as a moral issue, but because small farmers didn't want to compete with slave-owners and the argriculture in the north was not conducive to it. But many, if not the majority, of northerners continued to support the existence of slavery in the south, until well after the Civil War started, because they benefited from it economically -- for example, the large cotton milling interests in the Northeast benefitted from cheap cotton that slaves made possible. Also, when you are talking about the 'south,' keep in mind that some states we don't consider 'southern' had legal slavery and their signators to the DOI were slaveowners -- Maryland and Delaware for example.

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Date: Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 07:05:32 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: JW Subject: The myth about Jefferson Message:

Joe: I live in Maryland, and assure you most people think of it as a Southern state. In some ways it's more traditionalist than Virginia. Of course, one reason the North wanted to count blacks as 'three fifths' persons was to reduce the number of Southern legislators in congress. The abolitionists would have favored counting them as zero persons, which would have reduced the strength of the South in congress and would have meant the vote over the entry of states that repealed the Missouri Compromise would have gone the other way. We have also been misinformed by the notion that the Civil War was over state sovereignty. The slave holding counties in the South voted for the moderate Whig canditadate (Bell?) in the presidential election of 1860 while the non-slave counties voted for the radical secessionist Democrat, Breckenridge. The vote was strictly along class lines, having little to do with the slavery issue itself. The slave-holding counties were dominated by Southern Whigs. Later, the referendum on secession went the other way, with non-slave counties voting against and slave counties (with lots of wealthy Southern Whigs) voting for. The aftermath was the 'Dixiecrat,' since the Southern Whigs without the institution of slavery became all but extinct. In short, the secession vote was strictly along economic lines not acording to some high minded notion of state sovereignty. The Civil War was about the economic institution of slavery, pure and simple. --Scott

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Date: Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 16:47:59 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The myth about Jefferson Message:

I agree that the Civil War, in the end, was about slavery, but in the beginning it wasn't, it was about preserving the Union. Again, I credit Lincoln with shifting the the subject of the war to individual freedom rather than states' rights and secession, at least in the north. True, most Southerners didn't own slaves, nor directly benefit from the institution of slavery, but the Southern upper classes were successful in exploiting the 'states' rights' theory of the war, to galvanize support in the South for the war. Nevertheless, there was a significant element in the South opposed to the war, and opposed to secession. North Carolina, for example, provided almost as many troops for the Union as it did for the Confederacy.

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Date: Fri, Apr 14, 2000 at 16:55:29 (GMT) From: JW Email: None To: JW Subject: The myth about Jefferson Message:

Regarding Maryland, I was referring to the general conception in the country that Maryland isn't a 'Southern' state, at least not in the sense that Georgia and Alabama are. I don't think cotton was a big crop there, for example, there aren't southern accents, etc. It also has a large ethnic Catholic population, more like the Northeast than the Southeast. I read an interesting thing about Maryland that when the war started, Lincoln moved quickly to solidify Maryland as part of the Union, even taking over the government of Baltimore for awhile. Maryland provided many troops for the Union, including a large percentage of the troops used to defend Washington. Nevertheless, the Emancipation Proclomation didn't apply to Maryland, and so in 1864 Maryland held a plebecite on the issue of emancipation of the slaves and it lost, until the absentee votes came in and then it narrowly passed. Those votes came from the union army troops from Maryland. I think this was an example that the war itself changed the views of many people on Negroes, and on the issue of slavery, because many union troops saw negroes fighting successfully for the Union and it was hard to see them as subhuman in that light.

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 17:07:27 (GMT) From: gErRy Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: G vs. E (ot) Message:

Sometimes, when I see the strangle hold the elites have on this country and indeed the entire planet, I wish for a French style revolution worldwide. Let the heads role! Start with Ted Turner and finish up with the pope! (Mahahaha will be somewhere in the middle Gerry le primitif radical des grands bois occidentaux du nord.

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 18:31:59 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gErRy Subject: G vs. E (ot) Message:

Gerry: Yeah, but there's a big difference between recognizing the inadequacy of what we have and seeing the 'correction' as the zenith of history. Furthermore, it would be more than foolish to correct the problem by resorting to a solution the consequences of which are in *no* doubt. There is a fourth way, that is perhaps more pragmatic than thrilling. Elites are inevitable, and even beneficial in some instances. What's been happening in the Balkans for the last few years is partly due to the fact that a high culture never developed there. The only issue is whether someone else's good fortune spells the certainty of another's misfortune, and this relationship is far from inevitable. American Pragmatism, while not as satisfying as some of the more idealistic European philosophies, has more real potential for changing things for the better (to whatever extent any philosophy can change anything much). Habermas, the most influencial social philosopher alive, is hardly more than a plagiarized version of Dewey and Peirce with a little Max Weber thrown in. I'll reiterate the point for emphasis. If there is an 'End of History' clause in the new contract, run--do not walk--to the nearest exit. What you're looking at is a beast slouching his way toward Bethlehem. --Scott

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Date: Mon, Apr 10, 2000 at 20:43:05 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: 3 billion folks living on 2 dollars a day... Message:

while Bill Gates, the Rothchilds, the Morgans, the Queen of England et al live in such luxury with a lifestyle unimagineable even to the likes of that runty piss ant we called Lord of the Universe. Something's wrong here and it goes beyond someone's 'good fortune.' Indeed the masses of people ARE suffering because the few want it all. And I'd be interested in this Fourth Way if you have the time.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 03:28:12 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: gerry Subject: 3 billion folks living on 2 dollars a day... Message:

Gerry: What I'm calling the 'fourth way' is broadly based private ownership of the means of production, through Employee Stock Ownership Plans and the like. Would require some specific legislation to change the way capital investment is done, and end the shell game being played by the banking system. The term Louis O. Kelso came up with for such as system is 'Social Capitalism.' He also coined the term 'morbid capital' to describe the kind of accummulation you cited above. He suggested that 'morbid capital' (capital that only produces more capital) was the cause of the Great Depression. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 17:19:36 (GMT) From: Gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: A worthwhile goal --thanks Message:

Thanks for your reply Scott. I'll check out Kelso. Morbid capitalism indeed.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 15:58:37 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: gerry Subject: huh? Message:

gerry: How is Microsoft causing the hungry to go hungry? As far as I know, they don't have any food or fuel holdings. The simple fact that Bill Gates PRODUCED a product that was not only timely, but answered an immediate need was his good fortune. Digital Research was the company that IBM originally contracted to make the operating system that would dominate the microcomputer world. They didn't make the deadlines, so Bill chimed up and said he would....... the rest is history. Now I agree that his recent marketing ploys are meglomaniacal in the extreme and that he deserves the 'monopoly' tag. BUT, I don't see his dominance in the Microcomputer market as a reason to blame him for 'hunger' or anything else, except maybe pissing some of us IT folks off! BTW, I don't particularly like Mr. Gates and I do, very much, prefer the open operating systems, like UNIX/LINUX. So, it's not like I'm a Bill Gates lapdog..... I tend to think that when ANYONE becomes overly successful (if there really is such a thing), they tend to be blamed for EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM in the world. Some of them may deserve the title, but I don't think Gates is one of those. Remember, if Digital Research had done what they were supposed to do, Gates would have been a footnote in microcomputer history. So then Digital Research would have been responsible for every problem of the starving world?????? If you want to pick on an organization that can directly affect the world of FOOD, then I would direct your attention to ADM.... they are the ones that own almost every farm in this country, now.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:47:00 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: ADM is a good choice Message:

Where did I say Gates was responsible for world hunger? In fact, where did I blame him for anything? All I said was there are three billion people living in dire poverty while a few families control the bulk of the world's resources. Gates is one of them if you consider his stock holdings as 'wealth.' Gates' name was the first to come to mind...probably a poor choice, as he is 'new' money. I wasn't clearly communicating, obviously. My point is that the concentration of wealth in so few hands is not a good thing. And it is a trend which is growing. I'm pissed at Gates because I've spent about 20 hours in the last week trying to get things straighten with my software after a simple swap-out of my video card. It's gotta be his fault !!! There. I've place blame directly on him !

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:52:14 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: gerry Subject: and THAT blame, he deserves :-) Message:

gerry: I understand what you mean. But the question then becomes, when do 'I' (a very successful business-person) say enough is enough..... no more profits..... ya know what I mean? Once something is a success, it's kind of like a steam-roller.... lots of inertia in its favor. BUT, I do understand what you mean.... Now, as to your video card problem..... THAT is Gates' fault! he he he :-)

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 12:55:42 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mike Subject: How much is too much? Message:

Mike: But the question then becomes, when do 'I' (a very successful business-person) say enough is enough..... no more profits..... ya know what I mean? Once something is a success, it's kind of like a steam-roller.... lots of inertia in its favor. The 'steam roller' effect is precisely what Marx was talking about. With a couple of exceptions his analysis really wasn't bad, it was his 'cure' that was deadly. Kelso held that when a certain proportion of the buying power produced through capitalism becomes tied up exclusively in capital/finance markets it becomes 'morbid capital,' and actually threatens to plunge the economy into depression. The percentage is a complex formula based on 'Saye's Law,' (which I have, unfortunately, forgotten.) It's quite possible that any increase in quality of life due to higher income has ceased long before that point is reached, and he reasons that it's not the government's job to proctect us from the ill-effects of becoming too rich. It *is* the government's job to protect the economy from 'morbid capital,' so he suggested a ceiling on income. Say something like not more than 5 or 10 times what an individual can spend on himself or his dependents. The actually amount is quite negotiable, and would almost certainly not reduce the 'number' of millionaires by much. It would be an income a lot higher than you what you and I make, but lower than what Gates makes. It is a fairly radical idea to set both a 'ceiling' and a 'floor' on income. However, I think one reason you never see Kelso discussed, except in relation to his brainchild, the ESOP, is that his scheme really would *end* poverty. There have been only two legislators who were interested in his theories, and both are now retired: Russel Long and Mark Hatfield. He was scheduled to work on a project with Gunnar Mydal, which Myrdal apparently rejected. Some believe it was because he didn't want to share the Nobel Prize with Kelso. --Scott

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 22:12:59 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: Excellent point Mike and a true dilemma Message:

How can anyone say 'OK, that's it, you've got enough. You can't have anymore?' Who would be the person in charge of deciding? That's way I'm curious to hear Scott's 'fouth way.' My computer is a real mess and I lost a lot of data and eight PROGRAMS have disappeared !!!

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 21:11:35 (GMT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: I heard differently, Mike Message:

Digital Research was the company that IBM originally contracted to make the operating system that would dominate the microcomputer world. I heard that the geniuses at Digital Research didn't want to play IBM's cloak and dagger game, and that's how the fates smiled upon Bill Gates and company. IBM had originally contacted Microsoft, not DR, to write their operating system, but Gates declined because Microsoft wasn't writing operating systems, but DR was. Remember the old CPM? Gates actually recommended DR when IBM came knocking. Can you believe that? Talk about a twist of fate. God only knows what course computing would have taken if DR had accepted IBM's offer. But IBM wanted DR to keep it quiet that they'd been contacted and were writing an operating sytem for IBM's soon to be released PC. DR refused to play along and IBM went back to Microsoft to offer, a second time, the contract and, surprise, surprise, Bill Gates was more than willing to agree to IBM's clandestine demands. The rest is history. Personally, I'm sorry it happenned. Now what have we got -- fucking Windoze, the worst operating system to hit the market, yet. Bummer.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 22:05:20 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Try LINUX, Jerry! Message:

Jerry: You may be right about the order of business, but the fact that DR couldn't keep the schedule is a fact (the military was watching their progress very closely because a big buy was on the horizon). I think they put it on the back burner because they saw such a profit from the 8-bit cpm op system. The market is FULL of examples of this kind of thinking.... good enough is good enough, who would want any more? Wordperfect comes to mind as a recent example (didn't write a windows version until Word was already the defacto standard). But, since you remember the 8-bit systems, try this on for size: Visicalc and WordStar. These two guys should have been THE dominant 16-bit DOS applications. But they sat on their heels and look at what happened. Personally, I think the same thing is happening with LINUX. The dominant guys are mostly waiting...... and they WILL lose. Linux is, by far, the superior operating system for workstations as well as servers. It's 'open' and there are more 'supported' drivers out there than you can shake a stick at. It STILL runs well on a 386 platform (as long as you don't want the GUI interfaces). If there isn't a driver available for a particular piece of hardware (unlikely), then all you have to do is put out a query on the 'news' and it will appear rather suddenly. If it doesn't work in your configuration, again put it out on the 'news' and you'll get the support double quick! The guy who wrote the driver will likely be chomping at teh bit to figure out why it isn't working. If YOU want to write drivers, you're in heaven...... it's all 'open.' No hidden api calls, etc. Ok, I guess you can tell that I'm pretty crazy about LINUX. Heck, with a couple of easy-to-get add-in's, you have a really powerful proxy/firewall server...... I used it for some systems that STILL haven't been broken into! TIS firewall toolkit is the best add-in I've seen and it's FREEEEEEEEEEE! :-)

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 09:24:59 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Subject: Before trying and install Linux Message:

don't forget to check if you'll find drivers for your peripherals, unless you're ready to dump them. I've installed it, took quite a few hours to figure out how this thing works, and finally discovered that my printer and my scanner are not supported by Linux ..... too bad !

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:05:15 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Put a request for drivers on the news page. Message:

JM: This is VERY effective. The driver-writers love a new challenge, so you should get results very quickly. Try asking first, though. Someone may have already written the driver and it just hasn't been included in any of the 'distributions,' yet.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:12:58 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Subject: News' page URL? Message:

Which one? Beside this point, I've encountered the same problem with Windows NT: lots of peripherals are NOT supported, including my GDI laser printer, and Microtek scanner in my case.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:50:04 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: There are MANY newsgroups Message:

JM: Try the 'alt.comp.os.linux....' and the 'normal' newsgroups that have 'linux' in their name. In fact, if your news-reader has the capability, search on anything with 'linux' in the title and then subscribe to the ones that are of interest. I would recommend using a real news-reader vice a straight version Internet Explorer because they give you the better searching/subscribing capabilites (IMHO). The particular newsgroup you choose will have a title that is the closest to what you are looking for. However, any of the Linux development newsgroups will be of use. BTW, I'm not saying that the particular drivers you are seeking will be there GUARANTEED, but I've yet to ask for a driver that didn't 'appear' quite quickly (e.g. within a couple of days). I've asked for some pretty weird stuff. I've written a suite of drivers that are RF-specific, too. They didn't exist, so I wrote them. That's the beauty of Linux.... if you like to write software, it's open AND, chances are, someone else will REALLY appreciate it! YOU don't have to be a programmer, though. All you have to do is be a bit 'diplomatic' and try to convince someone to write them...... it usually doesn't take much..... HEY, a good bottle of Bordeaux ought to do it!!!! he he he :-) JUST KIDDING.... Seriously, if the driver doesn't exist, it is usually pretty easy to get someone interested in writing it. BUT, usually the driver exists..... remember, you aren't the only person that's using the hardware that you have. Chances are pretty good that another LINUX user has it, too. There are MANY users and the number is growing everyday.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 23:15:50 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Mike Subject: agree one hundred per cent Message:

It's always been better. I am predicting Linux is going to take off like wildfire and I am looking forward to it. I love it. selene the geek

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 22:18:05 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: I want it !!! Message:

Where do I get it? Can I put it on one hard drive and reserve the other for windows? Do I need a degree tou nderstand how to do this or is it relatively simple for us simple minded folks?

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 01:55:09 (GMT) From: aoaji Email: None To: gerry Subject: Linux - I want it !!! -ot- Message:

Linux is not commercial software. There's no support. The newsgroups are packed with people who don't know adam from elba. If Linus leaves the project, it will probably evaporate; something else will take its place (but the OpenSource idea will thrive, in some form). There aren't many good applications for Linux, for the average consumer. I still haven't found a good, free spreadsheet -- and I use Linux 8 hours a day, every day (it is quite stable; haven't rebooted in 72 days or so!) I wouldn't install it for my brother because I don't want to spend the next three years supporting him using it. It is a steep learning curve. If you're a developer or a geek, it is of course one of several excellent choices, especially if you're on a tight budget. FreeBSD is probably the better server platform, though -- all things considered. If you want to learn a lot of unix commands, then you'll want to install one of the *nix variants (Linux is just one of several, all of them free of charge). If you have a close friend in town running Linux (or the like) and you want to make a project of it, I'd say go for it. Otherwise -- you may wish you hadn't. Also: pick up a cheap 486 for about 200 bux, and do it that way; keep your Win98 'crutch' around until you don't need it anymore (though there are all kinds of applications for Win98 that will probably never see the light of day on the Linux side. Linux geeks don't care -- most the time they're in a text-only editor, writing code :) Just my opinion.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:26:45 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: aoaji Subject: Couldn't DISAGREE more :-) Message:

aoaji: If Linus stopped working on the kernel, it wouldn't have any effect on the project, at all. Most of the kernel mods and improvements are made by others. If Linus were the only significant contributor, it would have failed LONG ago. He'd be the first to tell you that, too. LINUX IS supported by most of the 'distributors.' Redhat DOES do support and will help with their distribution. Their techs are quite good. Additionally, there are MANY MANY driver developers on the newsgroups. Most of these folks are UNIX people from the start and are enjoying the open nature of linux. Oh yeah, Caldera is another distribution that provides good support. True, if you don't get a commercial distribution, you can't get redhat or caldera to support you...... But then again, if you pirate software (e.g. don't buy from microsoft, whatever) they won't support you either. Let's see..... apps..... Well, Netscape, there's star-office, Wordperfect for Linux, most of the apps Corel writes are being rewritten for Linux as we speak. It's getting better..... The really important thing is that most SERIOUS apps (e.g. scientific apps, etc), not the windows-TOYS versions, are written for any version of unix (including the linux variant). Servers? Couldn't disagree more there, either. FreeBSD has been very unstable in multi-server environments. According to the folks that I left in charge of a 300 linux-server shop, the Linux boxes that I built need to be restarted about once every six to twelve MONTHS. The few FreeBSD boxes that we put up as an experiment failed regularly and were replaced with the current Linux version..... problem solved and pretty stable. BTW, to answer Gerry's question: REDHAT is the way to go, IMHO. For the home user (e.g. not a geek), their distribution is as easy to install as windows. They take care of 'dependency' installations for you and if you make a mistake, in that regard, it will correct it after telling you what you did wrong. Again, they support their distribution and it's CHEAP! They have several versions...... The differences being what-comes-with-it. The kernel distribution is identical between their different 'versions.' I think the cheapest version is like 30 bucks.... Not bad..... Anyway, it wouldn't hurt to do some reading to make sure the particular distribution has the 'parts' that you want. If you want to do it 'the hard way,' try Slackware Linux..... cheap..... very cheap..... BUT........ you gotta be alot more of a linux geek. In other words, you actually HAVE A CHOICE with Linux!

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 03:37:30 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mike Subject: Couldn't DISAGREE more :-) Message:

Mike: I have Redhat version 6.0 installed, but haven't used it in ages. Very efficient at memory management, but the software was often buggy and the GUI interface was total crap. I hear the newer versions are much improved. Since, however, most of the people with whom I do businsess are using Microsoft products, especially Excel and Word, and since these people are mostly lawyers rather than engineers, there would be some definite disadvantages. Anyway, I might checkout the new version of Redhat. --Scott

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 17:19:42 (GMT) From: selene Email: None To: Mike Subject: Couldn't DISAGREE more :-) Message:

Once you get used to Linux, windoze and nt seem like the clumsiest most non intuitive pieces of crap ever .. a very poor rip off of the Mac interface. And no television PR whining-in-a-bad-sweater is going to help bill gates outta this one. (can you tell I have had to do NT support lately?)

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 21:00:18 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: selene Subject: Hey, it keeps us in the green Message:

Selene: I won't badmouth NT too much because it keeps me in the 'green' pretty well, no? No such thing as real stability there.... he he he he :-)

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 21:23:14 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: Mike Subject: yes the damned things are everywhere Message:

I forget how lucky I am. UNIX is widely used in educational technology. And here I am using my NT workstation right now to write those ever present memos. EMACS for memos seems a little much. I just get fanatical sometimes. selene stating the obvious

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 17:09:46 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Mike Subject: CHOICE--Imagine that! Message:

Redhat on a separate hard drive it is !!! Thanks to everyone. I'm still recovering from my installation of a new video card. Fortunately, ONE copy of the house plan I've been working on for weeks was saved, since I had tucked it into my briefcase almost by accident. It was the sole survivor. I still lost several programs and had other screw ups going on as well. Not being an IT guy, this was very frustrating.

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Date: Tues, Apr 11, 2000 at 23:17:03 (GMT) From: Selene Email: None To: gerry Subject: you can have it and partition too Message:

The word I have heard over and over from work is if you are going to partition part with widows use Partition Magic to do the job.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:35:29 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Selene Subject: That is good advice, Selene Message:

Selene and Gerry: YES, partition magic is the way to go for Linux/Windows combinations. Additionally, before you do this Gerry, you will need to be aware of some caveats concerning the 'order' of operating system installation. It IS important. If you get to that stage, send me an email and I will explain it to you. My best advice concerning the installation of ANY new operating system (e.g. one that you haven't used yet), is to take it slow and easy. There are advantages and disadvantages, especially when installing dual-boot type systems. READ about these, first. That way you won't walk into a situation that you can't get out of..... In other words, you won't get into a 'no-boot' or data-loss situation. Do it the SMART way! As a point of reference, all of my systems at home are TRI-boot. Linux, Windows/NT and Windows98. My system that I use at work is a TRI-Boot, too. All of our techs took my lead on this one. For getting to 'network' problems, linux can't be beat..... the BEST tools are written for UNIX variants. Actually, I use Linux for almost everything, except Windows-specific administration.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:04:08 (GMT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mike Subject: Use separate hard disks if you can! Message:

Installing Linux for the 1st time might be very long, and you might also make mistakes. I found it safer to install it on a separate hard disk the 1st time. You'll also have to consider the fact that once Linux will be installed and working the way you want, you might want to de-install windows etc, and you might again have trouble modifying your partitions.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 16:14:45 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Another good point, JM. Message:

JM: Good point and worthwhile for any 'new' linux user. In my case, I have it working on all of my laptops, too. There wasn't any choice in separate hard drives. The again, my job REQUIRES that I have access to all three operating systems, when needed. But, if I could have done it that way, I would have. It DOES make good sense to separate operating systems on individual hard drives. The one problem would be the 'waste' involved with having a little-used operating system (e.g. in my case, windows) on its own hard drive. BUT, for safety sake, YOUR idea is a good one, no doubt.

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 03:45:33 (GMT) From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mike Subject: A new drive instead of a new computer Message:

Mike: I have a 2GB SCSI drive that I'm using as my primary OS with an 8GB EIDE drive as data storage. This is on a 200MHz Pentium. (I know, its ancient, but I have 128 MB of RAM.) I could get a much bigger drive nowadays, and use the 8GB for Linux box and some big ol' EIDE monster as the primary drive and data storage. SCSI has been problematic, so I'd just as soon get rid of it. It' 'old SCSI' anyway. --Scott

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Date: Thurs, Apr 13, 2000 at 14:48:29 (GMT) From: Mike Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: SCSI Message:

Scott: I might recommend ultra-wide scsi. Use an adaptec controller and a new scsi hard drive IF you ever use your system as a server. The problem with IDE is that it isn't capable of performing functions separate from the cpu. SCSI performs commands asyncronously. In other words, a command is issued, the drive 'disconnects' itself from the scsi bus, the command is performed by the drive while the scsi bus is available for other drives to receive/perform commands. That is why most high-end servers use scsi. IDE can't do this, so it's pretty much relegated to workstations and other single-tasking systems. If you do alot of true multitasking with lots of disk activity, ultra-wide scsi is the way to go.

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Date: Wed, Apr 12, 2000 at 15:09:50 (GMT) From: gerry Email: None To: Selene Subject: Thanks aoa ji and Selene (nt) Message:

nt

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