Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Fri, Apr 28, 2000 at 11:23:22 (GMT)
From: Apr 10, 2000 To: Apr 25, 2000 Page: 2 Of: 5


Powerman -:- JW (OT) -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:37:42 (GMT)
__ JW -:- JW (OT) -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 16:38:06 (GMT)
__ __ AJW -:- Forests and IMF/World Bank -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 08:07:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Forests and IMF/World Bank -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 10:41:39 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- JW (OT) -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 00:03:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ JW -:- JW (OT) -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 00:33:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Powerman -:- JW (OT) -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 00:39:54 (GMT)
__ AJW -:- IMF and the World Bank -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 15:16:25 (GMT)
__ __ Robyn -:- IMF and the World Bank -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 02:27:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Powerman -:- IMF and the World Bank -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 04:55:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Post-Colonialism Is Just Capitalism From Afar (nt) -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 03:45:23 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- IMF and the World Bank -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 00:08:01 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- Guess Who Wrote This? -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 17:09:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mike -:- An ultra-liberal drone..... -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 21:21:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- An ultra-liberal drone..... -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 02:03:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- And you're honest enough to say -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:31:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Noam Chomsky? (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 23:36:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Bingo!!!!! -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 23:44:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- bongo bill -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 01:58:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- bongo bill -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:27:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- the debt forgiveness idea -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 04:25:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- What are you talking about? -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:32:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- What are you talking about? -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:33:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ gErRy -:- great post bill -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 15:30:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- gerry -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:34:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ gErRy -:- Howard Zinn? -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 17:27:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- No, but close. (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 18:42:52 (GMT)

downunder -:- m is at amaroo nt -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 05:09:04 (GMT)
__ TD -:- 'I better start to boogie' - for fuck's sake.... -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 23:10:08 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- 'I better start to boogie' - for fuck's sake.... -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 23:35:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ TD -:- 'I better start to boogie' - for fuck's sake.... -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 07:25:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hi TD! -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:16:13 (GMT)
__ __ G -:- 'simplicity' and 'spontaneous', another report -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 22:00:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ TD -:- 'simplicity' and 'spontaneous', and wallabies -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 22:40:41 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Hi TD -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 03:56:13 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- You got me laughing as usual -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 03:02:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ TD -:- Hi Helen and Selene! -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 06:27:51 (GMT)
__ __ Daneane -:- just unbelievable -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 03:00:30 (GMT)
__ Oliver -:- Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos? (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 06:20:23 (GMT)
__ __ The Inquisitive Wallaby -:- Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos? (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 08:05:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ Oliver -:- Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos? (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 08:32:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ The Iquisitive Wallaby -:- Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos? (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 14:11:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos? -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 00:21:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Red Rooter -:- Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos? -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 14:14:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- and it goes on and on and on -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 17:44:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bart Cummings -:- and it goes on and on and on -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 09:56:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thanks -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 16:44:13 (GMT)

Way -:- 9 OBJECTIONS (part 1) -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 18:52:53 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Very Well Done -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:00:26 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Who's 'we'? Concerned-yes. Frustrated=annoyed?(nt) -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 19:06:31 (GMT)
__ Way -:- 9 OBJECTIONS (part 2) -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:25:33 (GMT)
__ __ JW -:- 9 OBJECTIONS (part 2) -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:04:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- To JW and Runamok -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 14:14:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- To JW and Runamok -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 06:19:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- 9 OBJECTIONS (part 2) -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:42:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- MILI's OBJECTION -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 19:58:10 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- criticism -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 19:32:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Way -:- re:criticism -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 19:56:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- constructive criticism -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:08:41 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- re:objections -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:28:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- re:objections -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 00:03:47 (GMT)

gErRy -:- Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 16:22:04 (GMT)
__ cq -:- One common characteristic of both: -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:01:02 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- One common characteristic of both: -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 04:37:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Question? -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 16:39:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Answer -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 20:02:12 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- Excellent observation, cq... -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 11:25:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Thanks Joey,(though I don't think Bjorn is Rob)nt -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 15:04:47 (GMT)
__ __ Bjørn -:- The characteristic of cq is smacking? -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:20:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Smacking? You asking for one? -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 15:01:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- Intersting statistics Ashrams -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 17:27:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Anarchist -:- Interesting statistics Ashrams -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 01:16:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Anarchist again -:- PS Bjørn, you forgot something -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 11:05:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- PS Bjørn, you forgot something -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 18:41:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Bjørn -:- PS Bjørn, you forgot something -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 11:26:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Interesting statistical analysis, Bjorn -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 16:03:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Trixie -:- Little know fact about ashram break up -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 18:52:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- And where were we going to go in the evenings? -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 19:20:55 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ trixie -:- And where were we going to go in the evenings? -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 08:18:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- raising kids while following the goon -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 17:02:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- childcare -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 20:51:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- childcare -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 23:02:31 (GMT)
__ Katie -:- Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 22:54:46 (GMT)
__ __ Rob -:- Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 23:31:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Hi Rob -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 11:16:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Thanks Katie -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:43:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- To Rob, again -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 12:57:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Ouch! (nt) -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 17:13:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Well, it's TRUE, Jim... -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 00:13:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Matter of perspective, I guess (nt) -:- Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:33:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Thanks Katie -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 04:03:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Yes -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 04:54:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 16:20:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dave -:- Hi Rob and Katie - I see a contradiction here -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 13:18:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Hi Rob and Katie - I see a contradiction here -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 15:58:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' But he is not Cerberus! -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 17:32:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' But he is not Cerberus! -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 23:27:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ an ex -:- Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' But he is not Cerberus! -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 03:34:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- You just illustrated my point perfectly -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 04:22:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- ya, ya, ya....just give it a break Rob...get lost! -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 11:48:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- ya, ya, ya....just give it a break Rob...get lost! -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 18:37:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- ya, ya, ya....just give it a break Rob...get lost! -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 21:45:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Trixie -:- Rob cant help it -:- Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 10:24:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- i writ wot i wrote.... so there -:- Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 01:50:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Damn, wet my pants again -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 23:17:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Prick up your ears, Rob -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 19:47:00 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- I love you too man. -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:34:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cq -:- and lift up our souls, ... Roger -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:14:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Sometimes... -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 00:05:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- And sometimes.... -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 10:50:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Hey Roger, welcome back you bullshit artist!! (nt) -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 11:20:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Give it a rest, Joey -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 15:17:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Give it a rest, Jim -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 23:23:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- One more thought -:- Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 10:56:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Give it a rest -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 22:06:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- The problem I have with taking you at face value -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 16:11:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- The problem I have with taking you at face value -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 18:23:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Latvian Bash -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 14:29:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The problem I have with taking you at face value -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 02:00:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Sidebar to Forum Admin -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 19:35:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Dave -:- Unravelling confusion -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 16:46:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ ex -:- Røb? + Bjørn? WHO ELSE DOES THIS 'O'????????????? -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 09:29:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jøhnny -:- Røb? + Bjørn? WHO ELSE DOES THIS 'O'????????????? -:- Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 13:53:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dave -:- Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 00:19:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Is Dave for real? -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 11:43:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dave -:- No, I'm a computer generated simulation -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 14:34:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rob -:- Thanks Dave -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 00:46:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Oliver -:- Thanks Dave -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 01:00:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Soul saving -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 01:06:06 (GMT)
__ trixie -:- snm?? Single nUde Male gerry? -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:30:12 (GMT)
__ __ Space -:- Clue? -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:35:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ trixie -:- Clue? -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 09:25:17 (GMT)
__ Dave (expert in Robism) -:- Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:09:46 (GMT)
__ __ Bjørn -:- To Dave (expert in ex-premies) -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 22:00:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ Dave -:- To Bjørn (an expert in fjørds) -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 23:57:26 (GMT)
__ __ trixie -:- native language -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:34:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Bjørn -:- Dette er mitt morsmål, Trixie -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 20:42:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Røb -:- native language -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 20:01:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Trixie -:- tsk tsk this is not good nt -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 08:59:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Dave -:- Can't you see when someone's pulling your leg? (nt -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 09:43:55 (GMT)
__ Bjørn -:- Bjorn is not 'Rob' -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:04:56 (GMT)
__ __ Boycott Bjorn , -:- he's a waste of space and time!! nt -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 20:15:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Trixie -:- boycott good idea. OK Done -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 07:57:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ Now, is the question -:- to be, or not to be. nt -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 20:50:59 (GMT)

Jim -:- A funny ELK post by a 'seasoned man' -:- Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 21:14:29 (GMT)
__ Archie Bunker -:- Yessireee!!!! -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:10:31 (GMT)
__ cq -:- Does this guy sell worming pills too? (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:25:05 (GMT)
__ Testosterone -:- Sure, Andy, whatever you say -:- Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 23:02:19 (GMT)
__ __ Helen -:- Sure, Andy, whatever you say -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 15:21:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- go helen -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 22:02:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Testosterone -:- A question -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 21:28:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Helen -:- Answer to PMS- -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 22:18:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Daneane -:- Answer to PMS- -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 23:48:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Helen -:- Don't take away my latte :) (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:36:55 (GMT)
__ gErRy -:- A funny ELK post by a 'seasoned man' -:- Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 22:10:05 (GMT)
__ __ xxpremie -:- gerry, the ultimate asshole... -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 09:50:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ cq -:- Don't tell me - you're the penultimate prick? (nt) -:- Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:27:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- this is cyberspace, jerk, not 'in person...' -:- Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 15:55:50 (GMT)
__ __ Powerman -:- A funny ELK post by a 'seasoned man' -:- Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 23:05:04 (GMT)

Stonor -:- Milliways, The Restaurant at the end of the Univer -:- Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 19:58:01 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:37:42 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: JW and everyone
Subject: JW (OT)
Message:
I wondered what your hit on the events in Washington D.C. is? Is the protestors' gripe accurate?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 16:38:06 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: JW (OT)
Message:
I'm flattered that you would ask for my opinion on this, although I am certainly no expert. I've actually moderated my views somewhat on the IMF and the World Bank, but I think that's because those institutions have been thoroughly embarrassed by what failures they have been, and that has been pointed out by the people who care enough to do so, like those people demonstrating in DC.

During the Cold War, the World Bank was basically an instrument of US foreign policy, as it was, and is, dominated by the US. It gave money to some of the most corrupt dictators because they were allies with the west. They basically grabbed most of the money, much of it ending up in Swiss Bank Accounts and in big gradiose projects that were boondoggles. They also tended to favor big power and irrigation projects, most of which failed, but displaced millions of people and destroyed the environment.

Since then, those institutions have lent money to desperate countries, especially in Africa and Asia, but with all kinds of strings attached. They had to privatize state industries, cut social spending, lower wages, engage in export, often of raw commodities that raped the environment and provided little in the way of jobs for the people, just to bring in dollars. In the meantime, education, medicine, environmental restoration, the development of value-added industries, etc., which would actually help the people who live there and develop the countries in the long run had to be cut. It was a disaster. If a country attempted to not pay back the loans, they were punished by being unable to get trade loans, etc. They gave money for all kinds of programs that encouraged cutting down the rainforests, destroying local industries, and driving people off the land into the cities, and into poverty. The standard of living in those countries has declined and in some cases about 25% of the GNP goes just to pay the debt to the IMF/World Bank.

So, now they have been embarrassed and have admitted they screwed up a lot, but they are very recalcitrant to forgive the loans. Out of the bad publicity, they say they are going to, but nothing yet.

Take Thailand for example. When Thailand got in trouble a few years ago, the IMF bailed them out, but forced Thailand to cut social spending, which resulted in an 80% reduction in environmental protection, and a 50% reduction in medical programs, in country which has a HUGE AIDS epidemic. Wages have dropped, Thailand has increased mining and clear cutting forests for export, and in the end, Thailand is a dirtier, less-healthy, poorer place because of the policies of the IMF.

Africa is a TOTAL disaster because of the IMF.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 08:07:02 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Forests and IMF/World Bank
Message:
Hi Joe,

One of the first things that they recommend when they go into a country to 'help them out', is that they utilise their forests to get some quick cash, by cutting them down and selling them to the West.

Projects like building dams- usually with foreign 'aid', are often to supply electricity to multinational mining companies and the like, so they can strip the natural resources more efficiently. More often than not, the locals are left out, and don't get electricity in their homes at all.

It seems we've found more subtle ways of exploiting developing countries than marching in with an army. It just takes a few accountants and bankers to releive most of the world of their natural resources and leave the place in chaos and poverty.

The troops only go in when the government refuse to play ball.

Anth the Caviar Socialist

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 10:41:39 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Forests and IMF/World Bank
Message:
Dear Anth,
I wasn't surprized that we think alike on this, I posted the same impression yesterday below!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 00:03:52 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW (OT)
Message:
Thanks, JW. It's hard to determine how much truth the IMF and the World Bank are telling. You mentioned they've admitted they screwed up alot but the representatives I saw interviewed yesterday admitted to nothing. In fact, they claim that the protestors are 'preaching to the choir' and that their actions have always been in line with the protestors' demands. They also claimed their greatest strides have been in dealing with the AIDS crisis.

It's also hard to know how much the protestors really know without doing some major research myself, although I tend to believe them. So it helps when someone more informed than myself (you) sheds some light.

Is it common knowledge that the IMF and the World Bank gave money to corrupt dictators who used it questionably? It would pretty much sew up my opinion if I knew the source of that information.

Thanks again.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 00:33:57 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: JW (OT)
Message:
I think it shows just how effective the protests have been that the IMF is basically saying they are a 'different' IMF than they used to be, although I don't believe it. No, they have openly admitted errors, including pretty eggregious errors in what they have done, but their basic position is that it's all over now and they have become this progressive anti-poverty organization. Of course, that is bullshit.

The support of dictators is historical fact. Just read the Chomsky quote down below. The support of Suharto is legendary, as is the support of a bunch of corrupt dictators in Africa, like Mobutu in Zaire.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 00:39:54 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW (OT)
Message:
The only thing worse than making errors is denying them and the only thing worse than denying them is first admitting them and then denying them. What a bunch of clowns.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 15:16:25 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Powerman
Subject: IMF and the World Bank
Message:
Hi Powerman,

Isn’t the fuss because the World Bank and the IMF (unaccountable, non-democratic organisations) are basically financing the destruction of the planet for small term gains for a few companies.

Not only that, they’re doing it with taxpayers money. They screw developing countries with massive interest payments on loans, tied up with conditions which mess up the environment, rip of their natural resources, wreck the local economy and leave the country in a mess. They’re international loan sharks who don’t just want their money back, they want everything you’ve got.

Power and respect to the demonstrators for making us aware of this.

Anth the Champagne Anarchist

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 02:27:34 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: IMF and the World Bank
Message:
Dear Anth, JW, Pman,
Reading this info, I'd been hearing about the protests but kept missing what they were all about, it sounds like modern day imperialism, is it? But instead of having to conqure a country and move there to oversee they can just sit back in their developed countries and rob and pillage in comfort while raking in the payments.
Great.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 04:55:11 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: IMF and the World Bank
Message:
Yeah, imperialism. Some protesters were carrying around a huge wooden horse symbolizing the Trojan Horse (as in, sneak into the country in the form of loans with stipulations and then gain control).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 03:45:23 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Post-Colonialism Is Just Capitalism From Afar (nt)
Message:
m
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 00:08:01 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: IMF and the World Bank
Message:
Yes, Anth, that's what all the fuss is about. I agree with you on all fronts. The protestors really have guts; I watched a few people get beat with billy-clubs, one woman taking a few hard blows to the face. She just kept coming back at the cop with her bare hands and getting walloped right across the face.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 17:09:09 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Guess Who Wrote This?
Message:
Here is a relevent question regarding the IMF debt forgiveness. Can you guess who answered the question?

Question:

“What do you say to the argument that the countries who borrowed from the WB/IMF have no right to ask for debt forgiveness (nor should anyone ask on their behalf) and should be held responsible for their debts like you or anyone else would? … And to what extent is the first world responsible for the debt crisis? … I guess in a nutshell I would like to better understand where the culpability of my own gov't lies (US), and where that stops and the culpability of third world govts starts.'

Reply from (guess who?)

The simplest answer to the argument that countries who borrowed from the WB/IMF have no right to ask for debt forgiveness is that the presupposition is false, so the argument is vacuous. E.g., the 'country' of Indonesia didn't borrow; it's US-backed rulers did. The debt, which is huge, is held by about 200 people (probably less), the dictator's family and their cronies. So those people have no right to ask for debt forgiveness -- and in
fact, don't have to. Their wealth (much of it in Western banks) probably suffices to cover the debt, and more.

Of course, this response assumes the capitalist principle. According to this principle, if I borrow money from you, use it to by a Mercedes and a mansion, and send most of the money to a bank in Zurich, and then you come and ask me to repay the loan, I'm not supposed to be able to say: 'Sorry, I don't want to pay you back, take it from the folks in the downtown slums.'
And you're not supposed to say: 'I got the high yields from this risky investment, but now that the borrower doesn't want to pay it back, the risk should be transferred to other folks in my country through socialization of the debt.' That's the capitalist principle. It would suffice to largely eliminate the debt. Of course, that principle is unacceptable to the rich and powerful, who prefer the operative 'capitalist' principle of socializing risk and cost. So the risk is shifted to northern taxpayers (via the IMF) and the costs are transferred to poor peasants in Indonesia, who never borrowed the money.

The argument that 'their country' borrowed the money so that they are responsible surpasses cynicism, and need not be considered. In fact, it doesn't even stand up under international law. When the US conquered Cuba in 1898 to prevent it from liberating itself from Spain (what is called 'the liberation of Cuba from Spanish rule'), it cancelled Cuba's
debt to Spain on the reasonable grounds that the debt had been forced on the people of Cuba without their consent. That doctrine, called 'odious debt,' was later upheld in international arbitrarion, with US initiative. The current US executive-director at the IMF, international economist Karen Lissakers, pointed out in a book a few years ago that if this principle were applied to third world debt, it would mostly disappear. But that would mean that the capitalist principle would have to be observed: borrowers have the responsibility, lenders take the risk. And that plainly won't do, when the concentration of power makes it possible to socialize cost and risk.

On first-world responsibility for the debt crisis, it is huge -- and in this case, the responsibility extends to citizens, insofar as their countries make possible some degree of participation in policy formation, and they do. The current debt crisis can be traced back to policies of the IMF and World
Bank encouraging lending/borrowing to recycle petrodollars in the 1970s. Their very confident recommendations that this was just great for all concerned continued up to the moment of the Mexican default in 1982, when the system threatened to crash, and the same institutions stepped in to socialize cost and debt. Another factor was the sharp rise in interest rates in the US under the late-Carter/Reaganite policies of a form of 'structural
adjustment' here, undertaken with no concern, of course, for the fact that this would impose a crushing burden on third world debtors, as it did. Another factor, of course, is Western support for the murderers, gangsters, and robbers who borrowed the money for themselves and, naturally, don't want to pay it back, when they can get the burden shifted to the poor by the same institutions that created the debt in the first place.

First world responsibility is enormous, so much so that if honesty were conceivable, those who supported folks like Suharto in Indonesia, drove the lending-borrowing craze (then bailing out the banks), and sharply increased interest rates as part of the further shift of power to the rich and privileged in the US (and that's not all), should be paying the debt themselves.

The culpability of third world governments -- say, Suharto in Indonesia -- is enormous, but remember that these governments are western clients, outposts virtually, whose task is to open their countries to foreign plunder, repress the population (by huge massacres if necessary), and enrich themselves if they feel like it (that's not a responsibility, just an incidental benefit accorded them). Suharto was 'our kind of guy,' as the
Clinton administration put it, as long as he fulfilled this role. Much the same hold for other third world governments. Those that try to follow another course typically get smashed. E.g., Nicaragua has one of the highest debts in the world. The Sandinistas were doubtless corrupt, though not by preferred US standards, but that's not the reason for the debt: rather, the
fact that the US waged a brutal and murderous war to get them back into line.

Note again that culpability of our governments (and their institutions, like the IMF-WB) are also our culpability, to the extent that we have the capacity to influence policy, and don't.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 21:21:11 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: An ultra-liberal drone.....
Message:
HA, MADE YA LOOK! he he he :-)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 02:03:49 (GMT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: An ultra-liberal drone.....
Message:
Dear Mike,
Hahahaha! I must say I clicked on your post with some trepidation! :) You are one of my favorite Republicans! :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 21:31:05 (GMT)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: And you're honest enough to say
Message:
Robyn: that you 'clicked' on it....... BWAH HA HA HA HA HA! The rest of them just 'looked!' :-)

Who says that a republican can't have a sense of humor?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 23:36:49 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Noam Chomsky? (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 23:44:10 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Bingo!!!!!
Message:
Well done Monmot!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 01:58:23 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: bongo bill
Message:
That would have been my guess also but that was because YOU posted the question. Otherwise I had no idea.

I think his analysis is definately incomplete on this subject although he might have said more and filled in some gaps.

He missed the real battle in my opinion, the fiat versus gold, and the dollar/imf versus everyone that might oppose the dollar/imf.

I think all international analysis must consider those factors in thier figureing or else the analysis is crippled by not knowing the primary chess and power game that is being played by the real big boys. Forget all illuminati style hidden agenda theories (I am not saying YOU have any of those), the real underlying power game is the game of money and control of it.

The IMF and the dollar do what makes sense in line with thier game plan. Other factors get in the way of them having pure play as they would like it, but the dollar as reserve currency is thier long running primary consideration that is put ahead of everything no matter what.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:27:38 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: bongo bill
Message:
Bill, I think the fact that money and power are behind all of this goes without saying, but thanks for saying it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 04:25:37 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: the debt forgiveness idea
Message:
Turns out that the real source of the debt forgivness idea is a dollar/IMF battle reason.

The IMF has gold in reserve, and since the dollar/imf is in a slow battle with the euro/BIS (bank of international settlements), using the gold donated by countries to the imf instead of returning it back (as has been suggested by some euro guys), there is a benefit to the dollar/imf anti gold efforts
and so they are going to do it. I knew the reasoning in detail but it is no longer fresh in my mind and I have gotten away from my fixation on that stuff in the last two months.

The gas price increase is also part of the whole battle.
The saudis are part of the dollar/imf group because (at least) the US is the military of the saudis. The saudis got the Iranians to buy into a dollar-recycleing agreement (like china did), and then the US started making big welcomeing noises to Iran.(Did you notice that? right during the OPEC price rises).
The gas prices take dollars that are flooding the world and channell them into the saudi dollar recycleing group and that helps the dollar big time.
Priorities!!
The heck with the human costs to the rise, the MAIN issue is the dollar. ALSO, it helps get the inflation going which helps greenspan put a brake on things without sending interest rates through the roof and endangering the interest rate derivitive world. (That also supports the dollar versus gold and euro).
Too much to cover in this subject to do a good job by stitching together sentences like this.

Anyway, point is, the little guy is just not really considered.
Any dreams that the game will change are hopeless dreams.
We are just lucky that we are tied to the show in a good spot.
Those outside of the game players needs just are out of luck.
There IS a trickle down effect of course, but on the horizon,
the US WILL NOT be continueing for too much longer in the role as buyer of last resort for countries that send us products.
Little people in many countries benefit by the out of whack trade but since the dollar/IMF has to battle the euro and others, they WILL be changeing the present situation to preserve the dollar and that spells harm to many in many countries that are counting on makeing more easter bric a brac and life style items for Americans.

My personal opinion is that having Putkin as a solid friend of the dollar and the west, (which he is), is in my nutty way of thinking, a sure sign that the world is cooperateing so much that disaster is imminent.
I just see how life is so unwilling to have us have easy street globally. I actually support the dollar/imf guys in thier game.
Not that it matters what I think!
Murphys law and mans self destructive tendencies are so constant that whatever group manages to stand up against tyranny and hold up a wobbling world economy in spite of so many threats gets my support in spite of the fact that is run by humans!

You notice the wall street/credit creation manipulations, it is actually a really spooky tenuous hold they have on that monsterously complex man made money machine.
In the way back room where just a few guys in the world of central bankers get together to decide core plumbing issues, at this time, they know they are flying by the seat of thier pants
and if they mismanage it, the core system will remain but WE small fry will suffer in greater numbers.

It is a ballsy confidence game and I wish it well, but murphy's law is a damn constant in life and I believe it is drumming it's fingers and the 'merciful god' is not exactly like advertised.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 20:32:59 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: What are you talking about?
Message:
I'm afraid I haven't the foggiest what you are talking about, unless there is some strategy to keep the dollar highly valued. Is that what you mean? If so, inflation has the opposite effect, making dollars less valuable. Highly valued dollars are also not good for US exports, but makes imports cheaper.

What is the point of having a highly valued dollar?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:33:29 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What are you talking about?
Message:
Hi JW,
I believe you are refferring to the oil/inflation comment.
The reason is not solely to sop up dollars from around the world and recycle them to american banks, which the oil boys do.
The euro countries need a 2 percent inflation rate.
The US fed needs to put a slow up on the galloping credit expansion and overheated economy. An oil price rise is a helpful tool especially now when greenspan is trapped by having to consider the 28+ plus TRILLION interest rate derivitive market. He has to telegraph any interest rate moves far in advance to the derivitive market so they can adjust. He cannot pull the economy into a slower mode by interest rate moves. No Volcker early 80's action style rises are possible in the present situation.

I hate to keep it so short, it is a big subject.
What is good for the dollar depends on the situation. The main priority now is to somehow cause a soft landing slowdown and keep the credit bubble from popping.
A so called strong dollar is not caused by just one factor and from a reserve currency standpoint, is not wanted, except that the dollar trade within a range that is 'proper' to balance the japanese and euro needs and the needs of the world that accepts the dollar. Inflation is one of the enemies but deflation is a threat as well. With a misstep, we will go into a deflationary spiral, the situation right at the moment is so off kilter that the central bankers and normal chess playing adversarys in the fiat money battle are banded together right now at this time and are cooperating with the dollar recycleing, and manipulations in the gold market. This is a very stressed moment for the vast credit bubble and the -confidence- part of our system is being coached and catered too big time.

I am sorry if it is disjointed but I have to go right now and it has affected my whole post knowing time was short.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 15:30:08 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: great post bill
Message:
my oh my bill.

How 'bout this: some time before the 'y2K' crisis the Fed prints up a bunch of money on the pretense of being prepared for bank runs. No bank runs. The money gets distributed to the 12 fed banks and out through the good ole boy system, which then pumps the 'free' money into the stock markets, causing them to blow up.

Meanwhile, the arabs, being the smart money guys they are, say hey you just dumped all this money into your economy thereby devaluing it, so we want a whole lot more of your worth-less money and boom, the price of oil skyrockets.

Of course, all this causes inflation, so greenspan raises interest rates, supposedly to 'cool' inflation. Then they put out the word and the good ole buy network sells their stock holdings and the market drops. Meanwhile the average guy who thinks he's getting rich doesn't get the word to bail out and he see his 'wealth' evaporate. Now he's taken out a bunch of loans and bought up a shit storm of consumer junk, so now he's suddenly in trouble. In some cases, he loses his real property. In this way, the real wealth in property and assets gets concentrated into increasingly fewer hands.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:34:42 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: gerry
Message:
talk to you tommorow gerry
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 17:27:57 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Howard Zinn?
Message:
howie rocks
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 18:42:52 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: No, but close. (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 05:09:04 (GMT)
From: downunder
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: m is at amaroo nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 23:10:08 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: downunder
Subject: 'I better start to boogie' - for fuck's sake....
Message:
I haven't been reading that much on the forum over the last few months, but popped in this morning, and this thread got my attention and so I went and checked out the stories on enjoyinglife.org of the Amaroo visit 2 days ago.

Well what can I say, but 'for fuck's sake'! Honestly - reading those reviews was so very tragic - especially after having gone to the Amaroo event in 97 and becoming an ex since. I found myself being very unpolitically correct and having a right ole snicker at the 4-wheel-drive wheelchair experience ('slightly rougher ground than expected, with loose gravel roads and sliding ridges to manoeuvre...') but wheelchair or no wheelchair, they're all such cheeseballs! Good to see he's still lifting from the Bible and pretending he's the Lard when he can't think of anything else to say ('In the beginning was darkness. And then there was light.') Yada. Yada. Yada.

And what about the truth and tooth piece. The sad thing is, I can picture M talking about this shite, and all the premies sighing and going 'aaaah, so profound'... The comments like how surprised they were he hadn't worn 'a suit' - oh what a miracle! And the 'I better start to boogie' .... I hope that wasn't a cue for that 'I just wanna dance with you-hooooo' song to start playing.... - oh vomit.

And isn't it interesting how the fact that he only gave everyone 48 hours notice is regurgitated in these pieces as 'oh how exciting spontaneous and simple' when I know, from experience, how many fucking people's lives would have been turned upside down (more debt by exorbitant last-minute airfares, cancelling pre-organised arrangements, chucking a sickie at work, shuffling kids off to family or friends to last-minute babysit, etc etc). Yet another example of his total disregard for premie's REAL lives...

Thank fucking Christ, I'm not a premie anymore.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 23:35:04 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: 'I better start to boogie' - for fuck's sake....
Message:
G'day TD. I trust you are well and happy. I wonder if you would agree that since we exes no longer have 'that appreciation' that 'everything seems meaningless.' Apparently, at the impromptu Amaroo event, according to an attendee, Maharaji said the following:

' That without that experience of being able to enjoy our very existence, and to have that appreciation and celebrate our life, everything seems meaningless.

Yes, this is the belief system he touts. Your life is fucked and 'meaningless' without knowledge, which is the only thing that makes you 'able to enjoy (your) very existence, and to have that appreciation.' Sorry, I cannot agree. Things do not seem 'meaningless' to me, and they only did seem 'meaningless' when believed Maharaji's stunted, sophmoric, and circular philosophy.

He spoke about accepting this life. Real acceptance. Not trying to change things to suit ourselves. But accepting things the way they are.

And it's not only stunted and sophmoric, it's also radially conservative. Yes, you just accept things the way they are. It's all perfect. No need to try to change or improve things. Just accept. No wonder premies seem like just apathetic creatures.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 07:25:32 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: 'I better start to boogie' - for fuck's sake....
Message:
Hi Joe! Hope you're well.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 22:16:13 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Hi TD!
Message:
Hey TD!
I thought your post was great, and it's nice to see you on the forum. Hope you are doing well - you sound like you are.

Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 22:00:32 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: 'simplicity' and 'spontaneous', another report
Message:
Interesting use of code words: 'simplicity' for primitive conditions and 'spontaneous' for inadequate notice. It seems these premies are pissed-off at him and don't realise it. Less than 48 hours notice, typical Rawat. All the money that has been raised for Amaroo and they end up sitting on the grass. Oh, how simple.

Here's another report from appreciation.org:

Event at Amaroo

Here, the short notice is described as a 'delightful surprise'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 22:40:41 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: G
Subject: 'simplicity' and 'spontaneous', and wallabies
Message:
That's so true. Honestly, I'd love to see if some disaster happened while at Amaroo or any other event, how they'd report it or justify it on these sites. That's one thing you learn early on as a premie, isn't it, that ability to interpret and describe every event, saying etc, that occurs or comes from Maharaji, as a beautiful learning experience.... and of course as a gift!! Car crash on the way there - don't rely on anything other than Knowledge! Plane delay - learn to be patient! Wallaby killed by M's car - an example of how life is so precious!

And what about that whole wallaby story. Honestly! What a stupid analogy. The only reason that the wallaby would have drank at the water is because Maharaji didn't really represent a major threat to it (well after all, he does look like a wombat, and a wallaby is bigger than a wombat). If it had felt that it's immediate life had been really threatened, it would have foregone the water and jumped off to find some other watering-hole, or waited until the wombat went away and then came back. Hey, you know - that's almost an analogy of an ex-premie. If you drink the water while a Guru's nearby, it's potentially dangerous to your health and life, whereas if you left and went off to some other water-hole without a guru, or waited until the guru pissed off, you can still get the water, but be a hell of a lot safer and happier.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 03:56:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: Hi TD
Message:
Your posts, as always are so refreshing!
Good to hear from you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 03:02:45 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: TD
Subject: You got me laughing as usual
Message:
So true, about people's lives being thrown into chaos so that he can be spontaneous, funny how that works, eh?

Great to see you here, TD, I haven't been here much myself, but I do lurk a bit.

Hope you're well and that life is an adventure as only you can make it :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 06:27:51 (GMT)
From: TD
Email: None
To: Helen and Selene
Subject: Hi Helen and Selene!
Message:
Hope you're both well! Yeah, I'm an odd lurker too - tend to just check out if there are any new revelations .... but happy to say that on the whole, the premie experience seems pretty far away most of the time. Life does go on!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 03:00:30 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: just unbelievable
Message:
As I try to figure out just what the hell I was thinking, I wig entirely when I read stuff like that posted over at Enjoyinglife. I read posts from people here that seem to have much ability to form sentences and express ideas sometimes too grammatically correctly, and I wonder, how the hell were they ever involved.

Yeah, okay, I'm wigging.

For the life of me I cannot even imagine Jim ever uttering how beautiful M's spiel was.

It makes me sick to see M taking advantage of people trying to find a way to live life more awarely.

It makes me wonder what it was that makes some search for it.

It makes me wonder if his effects might have jaded so many from ever venturing to look again.

I so don't know how he can sleep at night. I guess if I was intentionally deluding so many people daily, I too would drink.

I do think meditation is a good thing. I just don't think it's a cure-all. There are always still waves of suckitude to ride through.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I thought I had something more to say.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 06:20:23 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: downunder
Subject: Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos? (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 08:05:58 (GMT)
From: The Inquisitive Wallaby
Email: Now that really makes your prediction look good??
To: Oliver
Subject: Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos? (nt)
Message:
You missed it Mr Duck. Find out what he said!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 08:32:48 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: The Inquisitive Wallaby
Subject: Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos? (nt)
Message:
What prediction was that Wally? That Amaroo's next incarnation is likely to be a white elephant? One swallow does not a summer make fella'.
Do I smell a premie here? Welcome matey.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 14:11:07 (GMT)
From: The Iquisitive Wallaby
Email: Reckon your an Aussie?
To: Oliver Twist , Race 3 No1
Subject: Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos? (nt)
Message:
All the good ones swallow! Nah , you are really outa touch my twisted sister. But I'm really glad . While you dream on in your own little fantasy.............It's cookin
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 00:21:25 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Re:The Iquisitive Wallaby
Subject: Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos?
Message:
Is that the best you can do Wally? Accuse me of being female? You have been part of a sexist male dominant cult for too long matey. Chill out, practice the techniques and enjoy. All the best.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 14:14:29 (GMT)
From: Red Rooter
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Jim reported same 36 hrs ago. What's the gos?
Message:
Joke Joyce! And you are in outer space.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 17:44:27 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Red Rooter
Subject: and it goes on and on and on
Message:
I get email from people that don't exist.
And get flirted with by guys named 'Joyce'

all this AND it's free. Isn't that what M said????

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 09:56:16 (GMT)
From: Bart Cummings
Email: You gotta love stayers!
To: Selene
Subject: and it goes on and on and on
Message:
James? Who can complain? I'm still trying to work out whether it's Damien Oliver or Oliver Twist ? The horse or the horses arse?. Pop D Oliver in your search .
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 16:44:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Bart Cummings
Subject: thanks
Message:
I think :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 18:52:53 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 9 OBJECTIONS (part 1)
Message:
A letter outlining these nine objections will be sent to several people. Here are the objections, please make corrections and suggestions.

9 OBJECTIONS:

(1) The information provided to new aspirants

We are concerned and frustrated to see that newcomers do not receive full and correct information. For instance, they are initially led to believe that any religious affiliation is not a barrier to the practice of Knowledge. Slowly, though, the new recruit is made aware that he or she will not be shown the techniques of Knowledge until all previous religious and spiritual affiliations are renounced. We have learned this from aspirants active this year. A sole dependence on Maharaji is thereby still fostered and encouraged, even though the public is told that such is not the case. We object to both the cult-like dependency and the untruthfulness.

(2) Surrender to the living Perfect Master

A major objection of ex-premies from the 1970's and 80's is having been misled about Mr. Rawat's identity. He claimed to be the unique living Master of our time, equal to Jesus and Buddha, etc. We were told over and over again that our salvation depended on our complete surrender to Guru Maharaj Ji. This false representation was perpetrated for many years, even when Mr. Rawat's top associates advised him to adopt a more reasonable and truthful presentation. Mr. Rawat's failure to present himself truthfully and adequately continues today. Some premies continue to think of Maharaji as a living incarnation of God. Mr. Rawat has not done nearly enough to persuade these premies against this false, ridiculous, and harmful thinking. Newcomers are justifiably very confused about Mr. Rawat's identity as Master, teacher, leader, figurehead, or what? Mr. Rawat could easily and effectively resolve this situation if he so desired, but he does not do so. In fact, he attempts to hide all evidence of ever making these claims. However, many excerpts from Mr. Rawat's own speeches are available at the website: Elan Vital/DLM Papers, (URL given, attached). These speeches irrefutably indicate Maharaji's own culpability.

(3) Closing of the ashrams

We, especially the former ashram premies, are angered at the treatment we received while living in the ashram and at their closing. We were at the age when personal education and financial goals are extremely important. Our livlihoods were severely interrupted and adversely affected and many of us were left with financial and emotional burdens for which we received no recompense or even proper and fair treatment. Recently, in March 2000, on the Ex-premie.org website, we received an apology about the handling of the ashram closings from Maharaji's top advisor from that time. However, his apology is inadequate since Mr. Rawat himself is primarily responsible for our mistreatment.

(4) A case of pedophilia in Maharaji's organization

We are very concerned that Mr. Rawat did not respond properly to a serious case of pedophilia in his organization. He was informed by two of his close associates that one of his initiators had sexually molested children in premie communities. This initiator was allowed to continue touring the world with direct access to more children. Two of the victims have recently provided their first-hand accounts which are still available at the website 'The Truth About Maharaji.' (URL given, attached).

cont. next post

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:00:26 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Very Well Done
Message:
Good job way. I think it may be a bit long, but it covers the bases nicely. I have a couple of suggestions on the first part.

Mr. Rawat has not done nearly enough to persuade these premies against this false, ridiculous, and harmful thinking. Newcomers are justifiably very confused about Mr. Rawat's identity as Master, teacher, leader, figurehead, or what? Mr. Rawat could easily and effectively resolve this situation if he so desired, but he does not do so. In fact, he attempts to hide all evidence of ever making these claims.

Well, he actually has done NOTHING to persuade premies against these false ideas. I would also add that Maharaji's current actions further perpetuate the image as god, such as giving darshan in Amaroo as late as 1997, and I think after that in India.

I would also add to the first section about aspirants that they are not told either about darshan, nor about Maharaji's history, as Lord of the Universe. This is deceitful and suggesting that people get involved with Maharaji without knowing his history, which has a direct bearing on the kind of 'master' he is.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 19:06:31 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Who's 'we'? Concerned-yes. Frustrated=annoyed?(nt)
Message:
Who's 'we'? Concerned-yes. Frustrated=annoyed?(nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:25:33 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: 9 OBJECTIONS (part 2)
Message:
9 OBJECTIONS continued

(5) Finances

Claims of Knowledge being free do not present a clear and total picture of how Mr. Rawat has always financed his organization and his opulent lifestyle, to the detriment of many people throughout the years. Even today, a substantial fee is charged to merely listen to a satellite feed while Elan Vital continues to claim on their website that no such fees are charged. Mr. Rawat has always said that his lifestyle is nobody's business, not even the business of those who are paying for it! Such a lifestyle is inappropriate and such an attitude is shameful.


(6) The Master Lineage

We object to the lack of full disclosure on Maharaji's own website in regard to the supposed lineage of Knowledge and the Masters. Mr. Rawat's website blatantly misleads people into believing that there was a direct line from __(to be supplied)__________ to Shri Hans. This is not the case. In fact, ______________ chose another disciple to succeed him, and Shri Hans went off on his own to begin gathering his own followers. It is obvious that the supposed lineage is meant to provide some credentials and honor to Mr. Rawat as a special teacher. But both the credentials and the honor are fantasies. Mr. Rawat's own brother, Satpal at website ______________, refutes Mr. Rawat's claims, although the former Bal Baghwan Ji's version of the facts can hardly be considered reliable, either. For the truth about the history of the Radhasoami tradition, see the website _______________.

(7) The four techniques - experience of the soul or an introduction to a cult?

It is claimed that the true spirituality for human beings can be experienced by virtue of receiving the four techniques of meditation from Mr. Rawat. In fact, we see the truth of the matter as the four meditation techniques being simply four meditation techniques and there is no quarantee that they or Mr. Rawat will provide a true spirituality for any seeker. The way that Mr. Rawat takes these age-old techniques as his own 'Knowledge' is designed to further his unique agenda, not spirituality for all. A human being would do far better to make the attempt to be in contact with his own spirituality without any reliance whatsoever on a specific leader or organization. We who have renounced our affiliation with Mr. Rawat and the four techniques feel free to pursue, or not to pursue, our own higher consciousness as we see fit.

(8) Human love

Being a student of Mr. Rawat has always implied a 'true love' for him above all other loves. This has taken the form of many premies actually renouncing their relationships of parent, sibling, friend, spouse, lover, and even child. Some premie women were actually encouraged to give up their own children in order to join the ashram and devote all their love to Maharaji in the form of Prem Pal Singh Rawat. Instances of such behavior actually occurred. Much pain was experienced by the premies and their families and friends. Fortunately, much repair has happened in the personal relationships of ex-premies. All human relationships of love should be honored and encouraged. But the love of a student for a supposed Master in intrinsically problematic since the student should never give his complete love and trust to any human person who he does not know and can never fully know. Such a supreme love should be a direct, personal experience between an individual and his or her maker, free of the inherent doubts encountered whenever following an all too human master.

(9) The 'experience' of Knowledge

Today, Knowledge is presented to people as a simple way to experience the inherent joy of life. A person's attention is directed 'within' to an 'experience' of one's own consciousness. What is the actual experience is never defined and cannot be defined. In actual practice, people who practice Knowledge, even for many years, do not obtain a reliable experience of the inherent joy of life. Inner experiences of meditation come and go, some simple, some cosmic, some confusing. These experiences do not bestow upon the premie any connection to life's joy than what is otherwise available to any person simply by virtue of being alive. In fact, premies are prone to an on-going struggle to obtain some sort of vague, undefined 'high' or happiness of life. They constantly fall short of maintaining this state of mind. Premies are also prone to a struggle to obtain Maharaji's grace, thinking that their 'experience' is dependent of living in such a way as to incur Mr. Rawat's favor. A more healthy approach to life is to simply live it and learn the lessons along the way, accepting the experiences we are given. Going within to a meditative silence and accepting our own nature is indeed a wonderful practice that anyone can do without Mr. Rawat or his techniques. Chasing some perfect state called Knowledge is ill-advised.

Attached are copies of the URL's and front pages of five websites dedicated to the truth about Maharaji and Knowledge.

We appreciate any careful consideration you give to our objections and the information found in the websites. Thank you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:04:06 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: 9 OBJECTIONS (part 2)
Message:
I would leave out the section on finances. It's too subjective. I like the idea, though of mentioning Maharaji's opulent lifestyle. I think this could be added to the section on aspirants. Again, they aren't told that he's fabulously wealthy. Another area where his website is deceitful is his implying that he has made his money from investments instead of getting money as donations from the premies.

I would also add that another deceitful thing on his website is the suggestion that you can leave knowledge if you want to. Again, this is appropriate in the aspirant section. This is contradicted by the 'smashing into a thousand pieces' and the 'rotting vegetables' threats Maharaji made in the past.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 14:14:20 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To JW and Runamok
Message:
JW and Run,

Thanks for your suggestions. As with the other suggestions, I have printed them off and will be writing a final draft. I will be sending my letter to anyone for whom I get an address. (I have my ways, but I could use help).

Another poster here is serious about leafletting at events, so a shorter version of my 'objections' might be worked out for that. My purpose is not to be all-inclusive of everyone's concerns here, (that would be impossible), but simply to draw some serious attention to the ex-premie websites, and to let people around Rawat know that we really don't like what they are doing. I designed the letter to summarize some concerns but also to arrouse curiosity for facts and names that I left unspecified.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 06:19:38 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: To JW and Runamok
Message:
I wasn't sure if you wanted my suggestions. I would personally skip the religion question, but definitely not have it as first. While the religion thing is obvious to an ex, it's liable to be a petty place for a believer to discontinue dialog.

The strongest points are:
1. former claims by M to be God
2. former claims by M to be the messiah

3. vast wealth compared to disciples in light of ashram scandal

Numbers 1 and 2 are hard to refute and so are the strongest points.

Peace bro.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:42:19 (GMT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JW
Subject: 9 OBJECTIONS (part 2)
Message:
Aren't you guys proof that you can leave Knowledge if you want to? (Phew!)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 19:58:10 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: MILI's OBJECTION
Message:


No, Mili, 'Knowledge' as you call it, we still have. It will always be with us, whether or not we choose to practise it.


What we have left is our belief in ...



...you guessed,

that poor old Sadguru (correct Hindi spelling, I believe) who's credibility - and pulling-power - diminishes day by day.






Mili, look, it's nearly over.

I know you might have given him your complete and total dedication over the last decade or two, but ...

Wake up, man. He is NOT God.

The only thing Maharaji wants from you is ...

... pardon me, that's for him to say.

(or has he told you lately?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 19:32:18 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: criticism
Message:
Way, don't get me wrong, yours is a strong attempt to put it all into a form that could be taken very seriously by the powers that be (law courts, charity commisions, IRS etc), but even if it's for the windscreens of attendees at the next darshan, it's a good starting point.

You asked for feedback - so here's my initial thoughts:



(3) 'angered at the treatment we received while living in the ashram'
not so, or we wouldn't have lived there.

for 'livlihoods' read livelihoods.

(5) 'Such a lifestyle is inappropriate and such an attitude is shameful.' - value judgement, but indicative of where the Maha comes from.

(7) For 'quarantee' read 'guarantee'

(8) 'Maharaji in the form of Prem Pal Singh Rawat' sounds confusing to the non-initiate. It means what?

'All human relationships of love should be honored and encouraged.' - careful here, - generalisations serve little purpose, and can easily be used to defeat one's own purpose.



You're bound to get a lot more feedback. Don't forget. - criticism, to be constructive, sometimes has to be severe
- i.e. constructive criticism might HAVE to lead to a certain amount of DE-struction of former constructs.

(you with me on that?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 19:56:34 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: re:criticism
Message:
cq,

Thanks. I've printed off your comments. Every one of them is valid and I will make changes. I have received several suggestions off-line, as well as more addresses to send the letter to. (I would particularly like to reach aspirants).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:08:41 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: constructive criticism
Message:
Yo, Way,

Aspirants at least have a greater ability to weigh up the pros and cons, - better than the old-timers, IMO.

One question I think would be most valid for the old-timers, viz -

'Have the years you invested in serving Maharaji taken you further towards or farther from an openness to questioning the validity of what you are told to believe?'

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:28:22 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: re:objections
Message:
The nine objections directly above are in a rough draft form. Much revision is expected. Any grammatical or spelling corrections, and any suggestions or additions are welcomed. If you know of anyone who could benefit from the letter containing these objections, please let me know off-line at wwilliam@kumc.edu. Thank you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 00:03:47 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: re:objections
Message:
Do you want feedback or are you all set and just trying to tweak your text?

I'm not sure so I won't go to town, but I would use a shorter text (probably with a few less objections) and would order the objections according to ease of arguability and importance to exes (these two things combined).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 16:22:04 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is Bjorn really 'Rob?'
Message:
Well duh! I guess. I'm probably one of the last to 'wake up' to the fact this Bjorn et al is probably just another character of the ubiquitous 'Rob.'

Dr Quirkus pointed out (correctly, imo) that 'Bjorn's' command of the English language varies greatly from post to post. If he starts a thread himself, we get the stutter bum Bjorn; in the 'heat of the battle,' we get the incisive premiespeak 'logic' of a true (and native english speaking) believer.

Besides, 'Rob' loves his characters and this one has many hallmarks of a Rob Ruse. But he's fun to torture if you're in to that kind of thing...

Gerry the ultimate asshole snm guy (TM)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:01:02 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: One common characteristic of both:
Message:
One common characteristic of 'both':

'They' (Rob/Bjorn/and maybe x#%*! as well - who knows?)
do tend to change monikers when they encounter questions they're unable/unwilling to answer.

How about it, x#%*! - still letting your master's boycott on doubting prevent you from getting real?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 04:37:21 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: One common characteristic of both:
Message:
So what question is it you'd like to ask?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 16:39:30 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Question?
Message:
Well, hello there Rob,

First things first - having read of Roger’s software that alerts him when you post here, the fact that Bjorn’s posts apparently don’t trigger it indicates to me that, whatever I might have once thought, or been led to believe, you and he are unlikely to be one person posting under two different names. That’s the way it now seems to me.

Secondly, you ask what my question to you is.

Don’t actually remember ever having asked any question of you before (unless it was you posting as ‘x#%*!’). Anyway, while we’re here, you could perhaps help clear up one or two points.

Your post below to Roger seem to indicate that things have changed for you. Do you no longer consider yourself to be one of Maharaji’s supporters? (regardless of whether you practise the 'knowledge' or not, - to my mind, practising the meditation doesn't need to imply allegiance to anyone).

That's one question.
Another, if you feel up to it, is this:

Why would the “EV machinery” as you call it,
“stop at nothing to make (you) out to be a liar and fraud, including subtly impersonating (you)”?

Why the special treatment, Rob?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 20:02:12 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Answer
Message:
Hello 'cq' - I believe you signed off as 'Chris' once, so I'll call you Chris until corrected, 'kay?

First things first - having read of Roger’s software that alerts him when you post here, the fact that Bjorn’s posts apparently don’t trigger it indicates to me that, whatever I might have once thought, or been led to believe, you and he are unlikely to be one person posting under two different names. That’s the way it now seems to me.

I think Roger was being a little tongue-in-cheek when he said about that 'bot' alerting him, I'm not sure if such a thing is even possible, but perhaps he's a computer expert or something? No I am not Bjorn, in fact I'm convinced that he is Norwegian, going by the bit of language he wrote. Anyway...

Secondly, you ask what my question to you is.

Don’t actually remember ever having asked any question of you before (unless it was you posting as ‘x#%*!’).[Nope!] Anyway, while we’re here, you could perhaps help clear up one or two points.

Your post below to Roger seem to indicate that things have changed for you. Do you no longer consider yourself to be one of Maharaji’s supporters? (regardless of whether you practise the 'knowledge' or not, - to my mind, practising the meditation doesn't need to imply allegiance to anyone).

That is correct, I am no longer a 'supporter' of Maharaji. For me it went a lot deeper than support. With the help of counselling I am beginning to discover just how deeply co-dependent and besotted I was with this person. I truly believed him to be a Divine Being, someone I had searched many years for. It's like a cancer, you don't get rid of something like that in one 'operation' - bits of it keep popping up in the most unexpected parts of my mind. Right now I do feel I am in remission, which is why I was asking Roger's help for a little encouragement.

I do find myself practising the techniques on occasion, although my therapist does advise me to exercise caution - in case I start to attribute any natural feeelings produced by it to some kind of 'divine intervention'.

That's one question.
Another, if you feel up to it, is this:

Why would the “EV machinery” as you call it,
“stop at nothing to make (you) out to be a liar and fraud, including subtly impersonating (you)”?

Why the special treatment, Rob?

Well admittedly that may be just me being paranoid or egotistical - chances are they could give a crap really. But I guess I came in with a vengence, intending to take exes to task, cause havoc etc etc and down the line a lot of what was said, most notably by Jim as it happens, started to get through and I kind of fell apart at the seams.

To cut a long story short, I ended up realizing that I had got totally the wrong end of the stick and I WAS in a cult, just didn't know it, or more truthfully, didn't want my version of reality to have been wrong all those years.

So my 'conspiracy theory' and it is purely fiction, is that it doesn't bode well for the 'Org.' for this Forum to have such an effect on the Faithful, far better for me to be 'lying' about not being a premie/devotee any more. Otherwise any premie lurkers might be prone to pay more attention and start to question themselves too.

So no, no special treatment. I'm sure the staff at EV and all it's derivatives are nothing but sincere, honorable people to whom such a scheme would never even occur. Right?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 11:25:38 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Excellent observation, cq...
Message:
...and nothing Bjorn/Rob can come up with his laugh of a post below, will detract from the point that you've made.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 15:04:47 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Thanks Joey,(though I don't think Bjorn is Rob)nt
Message:
Thanks Joey,(though I don't think Bjorn is Rob)nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:20:28 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: The characteristic of cq is smacking?
Message:
The only time I remember I had an argument with you, cq, was between 8th and the 10th of aptil. I wrote facts about what happened when the ashram closed down in Norway. What I basicly wrote was that the 2 remaining ashram members shared the ashram assets of about 75 000 $ when the ashram closed down. I also wrote that in Norway, most of those who moved into the ashram, had no steady jobs nor an own appartment when they moved in. There were also imported unemployed persons from other countries to live in the ashram since the community was so small. I also wrote that almost everyone did quite well after their ashram career.

You, Cq freaked out about this, and posted that you wanted to smack me in the face.

I wrote to you and hoped you were not into the habit of smacking people. I also asked you what your problem was- but I never got an answer. So I still dont know what is your problem.

I understand that I am unwanted here. That is OK. But I am not into the habit, cq, like you wrote: 'do tend to change monikers when they encounter questions they're unable/unwilling to answer'

I change names when people become nasty. My dislike is talk behind peoples back and I am a person who normally take the party of the weaker ones. I suppose I am also a stayer, who dont give up easily. So I dont really find your description adequate to my person. But who cares?

But now it is my easter holiday, and I sincerely hope that what is going on here at the Forum , will not make me feel a need to write here anymore.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 15:01:25 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Smacking? You asking for one?
Message:
Smacking? You asking for one?

Bjorn, I fully recognise a wind-up when I see one, and maybe a smack would be just the thing to wake you up to the game you’re attempting to play here.

Unfortunately, when the name of the “game” is revisionism, there are more severe consequences than just a “smack” -especially in terms of your credibility.

It’s only a week since I posted to you, yet already you have created your own version of events. So let me put the record straight once and for all:

What YOU actually said, Bjorn, was this:

“I’ve met some premies in different countries though. In my opinion quite a number of the ashram premies had been unable to fit into the society. A lot of them never really had a job, very few were skilled in any professions. Actually a lot were misfits and hippies from the viupoint (sic) of the society ... A lot of them never had a real job”.

To which I replied:

“Norway I don't know about, but if you're claiming to speak for UK
ashrams - Bjorn, someone owes you a smack in the mouth ...”

I found your portrayal of ashram premies not only inaccurate, but offensive, and responded accordingly.

You then announced that your description was “at least correct for Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Finland”, and said you could give statistics to back your claims.

So where are these “statistics” ?

You were also told by another poster to “put up or shut up”.

It’s about time you did.




PS
And hiding behind change of names isn’t very brave, is it? In fact it’s also pretty deceptive, and reflects pretty badly on your Maharaji as well as on you. So why do it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 17:27:16 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Intersting statistics Ashrams
Message:
To cq
I suggest you read my reply.

By the way, I was thinking about what happened to those people who lived in Norway in the ashram. Most of them did not have a steady job when they moved into tha ashram:

To my knowledge this is what happened to them:
One person returned to Denmark, started to work as a programmer, had a career and bought a nice house. Another person also returned to Denmark and are doing quite well.
2 ashram girls returned to Denmark, both are single mothers.
One person has got 2 kids, completed her medical school and is married to a very wealthy guy.
3 persons are business men, doing quite well.
2 persons are teachers
1 person became a artist.
1 person is enoying life, is a musician and even won the norwegian european Grand Prix song contest (as a writer)
2 persons returned to Finland and married qiute wealthy persons.
1 person retuned to England and got a job as a repro technichian.
1 person has a political local career and has an excecutive job.
1 person is a physioterapist with his own practice.
About 2 persons I have no clue.

I would say they are doing above average

Out of these people only about 6 or 7 still seem to be in contact with Maharaji. Most of those who do not keep contact, I dont think are very negative towards Maharaji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 01:16:55 (GMT)
From: Anarchist
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Interesting statistics Ashrams
Message:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Some people are even going to believe all that, Bjørn. But we know it's all a complete fabrication don't we. But I have to hand it to you - you've got a good imagination. Why don't you get into writing spy novels or something.

So tell me Bjørn, who's the King of Norway? I know - you'll look it up in an encyclopedia or on the net. But it's not King Canute. No, he was the King of Denmark.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Bjørn from Norway. That's a good one!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 11:05:19 (GMT)
From: Anarchist again
Email: anarchyintheUK.com
To: Bjørn
Subject: PS Bjørn, you forgot something
Message:
You forgot to mention that one of the unemployed and untogether ashram premies won the Eurovision Song Contest after the ashrams closed down.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha

And another one went on to win the Miss World contest.

He he he he he he

Go on Bjørn, tell us some more stories!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 18:41:56 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Anarchist again
Subject: PS Bjørn, you forgot something
Message:
But didn't Danny Whatsisname get third place in the Eurovision Song contest one year? Some eminently forgettable soppy tune.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 11:26:34 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Anarchist again
Subject: PS Bjørn, you forgot something
Message:
I just wrote the facts according to my knowledge.

The guy who won the national Grand Prix final (as a textwriter) did it after he moved out, but he is still a premie.

My point is that nobody seemed to be be suffering from the time they spent in the ahsram.

BTW it seems to me that there are 3 kinds of 'premies'
Those who still enjoy Knowledge. For Norway about 15 %.

Those who for some reason not any more are in contact with Maharaji For Norway about 85 %

Those who for some reason are bitter about Maharaji. It seems like this last category are very small. For Norway about 0,5 % to my knowledge.

The figures are estimates made by me.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 16:03:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: Interesting statistical analysis, Bjorn
Message:
I'm just curious how you concluded that the other estimated 84.5 % who 'for some reason' aren't 'in contact' with Maharaji aren't bitter? Did you interview them? How many? When? And what kind of real numbers are we talking about anyway? What's your sample size? What's the population (not of Norway in general, of course, but of people who ever received Knowledge there)?

As for ex-ashram residents, I'm also curious as to how many you know well enough to be able to say, 'My point is that nobody seemed to be be suffering from the time they spent in the ahsram.' Again, did you interview them? How many? And what are your criteria for 'suffering'? How about just misspent years? Would they count as some form of 'suffering'?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 18:52:36 (GMT)
From: Trixie
Email: None
To: Thread
Subject: Little know fact about ashram break up
Message:
I know that the disbanding of the ashramshad an impact to those who were in it.
But I have been remembering those times from a 'householders' perspective.
You see we were the ones that might get saves if there was any room left. The ashram premeis were the ones that were making sure that bieng saved was still possible on this earth. They sort of kept the energy up for the perfect master to keep working.
The existence of the ashrams gave backbone to the movement, so that Mahahah could carry on with his work.

when the ashrams were broken up- I remember feeling like the world suddenly stopped. I was disorientated- the diaper pins hung unclasped on my collar. If there was no stable influence at the satsang hall then all us premies might go get ice cream or something. How was Mamamam going to carry on with this huge shift. He seemed to rely on the ashrams as a way to keep us lowly householders in line. It was always a PATH we had taken and if we were really devoted- well we might make it and not be insect excreta next life time. And next time we may get it together and join the ashram before Maya took over.

Besides all those gorgeous guys now were LOOSE

Just some reccolections

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 19:20:55 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Trixie
Subject: And where were we going to go in the evenings?
Message:
What to do? Watch TV? or oh no! relate to each other as a family?
It left us disoriented and looking at each other with no coping skills. We were programmed to only look towared M or the premies for solace.
Lots of divorces happened at that time, because we WERE strangers as couples. We had diverted all that energy into the community, such as it was. Strange days. It was just as well, at least for me. Painful but my marriage was awful anyway.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 08:18:01 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: And where were we going to go in the evenings?
Message:

Family Dysfunction was sort of an acquired art-a sort of an evolutional inhancement becouse we were so...um....high

Ditto about the marriage(s)
;)

I am still not over the guilt of raising my kids in that scene.
They will probably be able to sue me soon.!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 17:02:16 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: trixie
Subject: raising kids while following the goon
Message:
I had so much guilt I could barely stand myself. But my adult boys, men, are really cool about it. They like maharaji much more than me. They don't think much of this site. Have read it and find it amusing at best.
They have NO interest in following M or any guru or receiving K, thankfully, but:
They have some fond memories of the premies and remember getting a lot of love and attention. I KNOW I find it hard to believe also.
And feel like a traitor writing this but it's true. And if you had read my many posts when I started posting here a few years ago you would see that many of my posts dealt with how guilty I felt for abondoning them in those horrible child care pens at programs, etc. But I swear every time I talk to them that is the type of things they say. I hope that means I did something right.
It may be because I was always very much on the fringes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 20:51:15 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: childcare
Message:
I remember doing childcare before I moved in the ashram and for a little while when I was in the ashram. I had a great time with the kids; it was a great emotional outlet and a chance to be away from satsang and the cult. I would agree with your kids that they got a lot of love and attention from the premies. Maybe for some of these premies, childcare was a way to express love and affection, it was for me.

Then Rawat said ashram premies couldn't do it anymore, something about how it wasn't service. What a jerk.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 23:02:31 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: G
Subject: childcare
Message:
Thanks G. That makes me feel good to know you felt that way.
I think a lot of the single premies did. I'm changing a lot lately, losing some of the bitterness and remembering some of the good things about the people. It's not their fault Maharaji was such an idiot.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 22:54:46 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Is Bjorn really 'Rob?'
Message:
With all due respect, Gerry (and I mean that) - WHO CARES? I've been frustrated every time I've tried to talk to the guy, and I wish that everyone would just ignore him. It seems like he just wants attention.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 23:31:39 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Is Bjorn really 'Rob?'
Message:
Katie,

Since I stopped posting last September, many posters have been 'accused' of being me. Sometimes this was flattering, often amusing, but mostly it has been upsetting, as the name 'Rob' has become synonymous with any person who chooses to disrupt and distract the Forum.

I promised you a long time ago I would not post here again unless invited to do so (OK, that was Forum IV) and I am only doing so now to reinforce that promise. I have not posted here as any other pseudonym, and certainly not as Bjorn or his alter egos.

I continue to read the posts because they are very much a part of my healing process, particularly of late, and I too add my sentiments to yours that Bjorn and the other imposters be given short shrift, to allow the real messages to take center stage.

Take care,

Rob.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 11:16:01 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Hi Rob
Message:
Hi Rob -
I appreciate your post and what you have said in it, but I'm a bit confused about one thing. The only person who promised me that he wouldn't mess with the forum is Cerby...and as you said, that was in Forum IV days. I never even talked to 'Rob' very much, although I did get an e-mail from him way back in Forum III. So I do think you are Cerby.

Anyway, I have no animosity to either you or Cerby. But I do think it's best if you - whoever you are - post on Anything Goes for a while, and lurk around here if you want to. Of course, you can post here if you want, but you seem to have upset a lot of people, and if you are really in recovery and getting help from a therapist, this forum arguing is probably not the best thing for YOU right now.

Take care -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 23:43:13 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Thanks Katie
Message:
Katie,

I appreciate your replying contrary to your doubts about me. I do recall quite clearly that we had a discussion over whether I should abstain from posting on the forum. It wasn't in regard to 'messing with the forum', just whether I should just vacate the premises altogether.

Frankly I'm weary of defending myself against the Cerby/Bjorn/Bim/whomever connection, but will continue to discuss it with whoever wishes to, simply because it appears that avoidance is equated with guilt around these parts. It is so easy to see events as 'proof' of one's theories, especially when reinforced by one's comrades. Dave's main theme, bless him, is that I 'talk' like Cerby. Personally I don't see it, but again, perception is often driven by desire.

I bear no animosity to anyone either, and acknowledge your point about my popularity (or lack of) here and have so far restricted myself to this thread, with the exception of a few minor informational offerings elsewhere. I have asked the FAs to just say straight out if they don't want me to post, and I will honor their request. So far I've not had a reply either way.

Again I guess you are right, it is probably a bit too soon for me to write anything which is of constructive help to anyone, perhaps in another 6 months or so I'll feel strong enough to write down the whole story and post it as a 'journey'. I do know though that many, many, premies have serious doubts about Maharaji, but are desparately suppressing them out of fear, just like I was. There is much people like yourself can do to help us, if only the petty issues can be put aside and the focus kept on the core.

Rob

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 12:57:47 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: To Rob, again
Message:
Hi Rob -

First, I don't think the FA's are going to express an opinion about your participation in the forum. You haven't broken any rules, and that is what they are concerned about.

Also, the whole identity crisis aside, I don't think that, as you said, it is probably a bit too soon for me to write anything which is of constructive help to anyone, perhaps in another 6 months or so I'll feel strong enough to write down the whole story and post it as a 'journey'. The problem I see here is that many people feel that they were burned by you, and burned in a way that is similar to how they were burned by Maharaji(although of course much, much, less seriously!) So you're going to get some antagonistic replies even if you post sincerely, and I wonder if that's particularly helpful to you right now.

Calling and talking to Jim is probably a good idea if you'd like to dispel some of the antagonism. (He is easier to talk to on the phone than on the forum.)

Take care -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 17:13:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Ouch! (nt)
Message:
ghb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 00:13:14 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well, it's TRUE, Jim...
Message:
...most of the time, anyway.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 22, 2000 at 02:33:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Matter of perspective, I guess (nt)
Message:
nn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 04:03:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Thanks Katie
Message:
Rob,

Really, why don't you follow through and call me sometime? I'd like to talk. Wouldn't you? No big deal, no surprises. Frankly, I think if you're interested in dispelling the suspicion you fostered last year you'd do a lot better mixing up the media a bit. Just a thought...

Jim

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 04:54:03 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes
Message:
Jim,
I've written your number down and I will call you, this weekend or monday. Is that home or work you gave me?

I'd be interested to find out if you ever viewed m the same as I did, (ie as a divine messenger) or were you always atheistic, and how you coped with the emotional upheaval, or was it easy for you. Stuff like that would be a big help, because the lady I'm seeing has no personal experience like this, only standard emotional problems (text book cases, you know).

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 16:20:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Yes
Message:
Good. I look forward to it.

The number I gave you, (250) 360-1040 is my home phone but I call forward to my office on weekdays and my cell on weekends.

Atheistic? As a premie? You've got to be kidding!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 13:18:52 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: Hi Rob and Katie - I see a contradiction here
Message:
I have to disagree with you there Katie. You see, I think of this forum as the place where you can work out your differences and possibly even offend some people. Huge revelations have been made here when the going was a bit rough and things weren't all hunky dory.

So I think that Rob should post here if he wants to. After all, there are a lot more vicious and aggressive posts here than anything which Rob has cooked up.

Rob is generally polite and courteous to people. I see absolutely no reason why he shouldn't post. If you think he shouldn't post then I could give you a long list of people who cause far more hurt than he does and yet post here every week.

So I just wanted to point out this contradiction - as I see it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 15:58:51 (GMT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Hi Rob and Katie - I see a contradiction here
Message:
Hi David -
Actually, I agree with you! What I was trying to say is that Rob himself might find Forum V rough going if he needs support right now.

Take care -
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 17:32:20 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Rob
Subject: Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' But he is not Cerberus!
Message:
Since I stopped posting last September, many posters have been 'accused' of being me. Sometimes this was flattering, often amusing, but mostly it has been upsetting, as the name 'Rob' has become synonymous with any person who chooses to disrupt and distract the Forum.

Rob, let me get this right. You're back now as Rob the recent escapee from the cult after going a bit insane on the Anything Goes forum. Of course, that was after you sold us all the story that you were a lap dancing hard drinking Scotsman. And, too, there was Cerberus, the friendly son-of-a-premie bus driving Londoner.

And now you're telling us you are not Bjorn or anyone of our other imposing imposters.

Ok, what else is new?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 23:27:08 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' But he is not Cerberus!
Message:
Roger, dear, dear Roger,

I let all that pass without denying or challenging it - meaning the whole issue of Cerberus - yes, I've read you're 'special report' on your website - and how you and Dave managed to convince yourselves and the entire community here that he/she was actually me. What was I going to do? Jump in and deny it? I had more pressing issues to deal with, like regaining my sanity and reinventing myself as a human being instead of a cult puppet. Is that so hard to believe? Well, I just did that over this Bjorn issue (ie deny it) and look what happened. Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Whatever.....

All I can say is that whatever that person's motives were for leading you to think they were me, they were entirely successful. Why would you go looking anywhere else for a disrupter when you have already found the culprit, right? OK, OK, I embellished the Scotsman thing a bit, but I did a lot of wacky things when I was practising Knowledge, didn't you?

Bottom line is, Roger, I would like you to help me. For real, just find some vestige of humanity in yourself to give a brother some support. I've told you I'm sorry for all the bad blood that went on - I was hypnotised, seduced, misguided, whatever you want to call it - but right now I need to find acceptance, not rejection. Do you know what it's like to leave the safe haven of a cult community? Do you know what it's like to look back at yourself and the things you did and be disgusted?

Do you realize that the last thing the EV machinery wants to see is a premie who stops practising Knowledge as a direct result of interactions on this website? Does that ring any bells in your head? Do you think they, or if not them, some premie/s acting unofficially, would stop at nothing to make me out to be a liar and a fraud, including subtly impersonating me? Is that too far fetched? Again, help me out here, maybe I'm being paranoid again and can't see it. All I know is I bet they cringe every time they see me post, and chuckle every time they see you try to discredit me. Think about it, will ya?

All I know is that you are a very resourceful, intelligent person, generally well-respected on the Forum, and a little encouragement from you would mean a hell of a lot to me right now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 03:34:45 (GMT)
From: an ex
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Is Bjorn really 'Rob?' But he is not Cerberus!
Message:
Rob,

You're the same full of horseshit Rob. Noone here believes your confessions/conversion.

You can beg and grovel all you want. You've fucked around with us enough. Go back to your fat asshole and keep your slime to yourself.

Your words don't ring true.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 04:22:47 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: an ex
Subject: You just illustrated my point perfectly
Message:
How are things at the EV office today? Which Knowledge review will you be attending, Santa Monica or Miami Beach? I'm sure your efforts will have earned you a front row seat.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 11:48:10 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: ya, ya, ya....just give it a break Rob...get lost!
Message:
Rob, I could tell you about Buddha's saying, about not pointing your finger, because there'll be three pointing back at you. But I won't bother:)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 18:37:27 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: ya, ya, ya....just give it a break Rob...get lost!
Message:
So that previous post from 'an ex' was yours, Joey? Interesting.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 21:45:03 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: ya, ya, ya....just give it a break Rob...get lost!
Message:
No Rob...that post was from either you or Roger using that proxomytron or whatever. I explained that to you before. In psychological terms its called 'modelling'....where you model all these situations that make you more 'acceptable ' to the readers of the forum.

Of course in, other words, its also called accusing your critics and enemies of what you yourself are guilty of, in an effort to confuse them.

Oh well. Like I said, keep pissing into the wind Rob...and have fun!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 20, 2000 at 10:24:44 (GMT)
From: Trixie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Rob cant help it
Message:
He fancies himself on vigilante patrol. Who cares what knowledge review- Miami or whereever. What other ex would ask a question like that unless they intended to meet up with one of us?

He has yet to say he has put down the guru. So to my mind he is still loyal to Makakak and his organization.

I see him say he was under his domination, and that he was under the influence of the cult, but he has yet to denounce the guru.
Calling him names to sound like one of the boys is not denouncing the guru.

All that I have read from him lately is just a rehash of the 'I'm too cool to be brainwashed or operate from premie dogma' line he was dishing out before when he was Mahahahah knight errant.

Gemini

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, Apr 21, 2000 at 01:50:59 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Trixie
Subject: i writ wot i wrote.... so there
Message:
I'm sorry if my lack of vitriolic expression offends you - we each are different and I am simply not accustomed to using the kind of language you seem to favor.

Perhaps the anger has yet to surface, right now I am more focussed on rediscovering my true identity after years of accepting the one I was given by my premie peers and of course Maharaji.

I'm sure it will come in due course, and when it does, I will find my own way of expressing it. If I 'put down the guru' it will be in an article sent to the leading newspapers, and will be written in a style acceptable for publication by them. For yourself, there is always the toilet wall.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 23:17:41 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Damn, wet my pants again
Message:
No Rob...that post was from either you or Roger using that proxomytron or whatever. I explained that to you before. In psychological terms its called 'modelling'....where you model all these situations that make you more 'acceptable ' to the readers of the forum.

Well if I falsely accused you, of course I stand corrected and apologise.

I can't speak for Roger, but I know I didn't post that insult to myself! There are others here far more adept at lobbing insults in my direction, you they don't need my help.

I've read about the proxomtron, but I don't have one and wouldn't know how to use it. How does that show up in the post? All I see is the usual From, To, Message stuff, no sign of any software like on Anything Goes.

Of course in, other words, its also called accusing your critics and enemies of what you yourself are guilty of, in an effort to confuse them.

You took the words right out of my mouth!!

Let me go get a dry pair of pants now, before the wind gets up again.

Peace.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 19:47:00 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Rob
Subject: Prick up your ears, Rob
Message:
Yes, Rob, just as you always appear when you hear your name mentioned on these forums I will be on scene shortly thereafter when my 'bot' sends me an urgent email that you make your unofficial appearance.

Rob, you are whomever we designate you to be. It is no longer your whim, but ours.

Love ya, Rob!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:34:59 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I love you too man.
Message:
After several months with a wonderful person who has been counselling me, Elaine, I can assert that I am NOT whomever you, or Maharaji or anyone else wants me to be. I am my own person.

So designate away my friend, it will have no further effect on me.

Which does not mean to say I will 'appear' any more when someone uses this handle to deceive you. I recognize this is a private website, as Jim admonished Bjorn recently, and have requested the FA to let me know if they he/she wishes me to refrain from posting, and I will abide by their ruling.

For the record, I do owe you a debt of gratitude though. In your own unique way you have helped me cut through my own and the cult's bullshit, and I offer you my sincere thanks as well as my sincere apologies for any inconvenience and ill feeling I may have caused you whilst under the influence and domination of Prem Pal Singh Rawat. That goes for the rest of the Forum denizens too.

Please allow me to move on in my life, I have wasted enough of it already.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:14:13 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: and lift up our souls, ... Roger
Message:
and lift up our souls, ... Roger

So does this mean that your 'bot' (as it were) tells you when Rob posts here?

And yet not when Bjorn yesterday does?

Huh?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 00:05:02 (GMT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: cq
Subject: Sometimes...
Message:
I tell little stories. In this case a 'bot' as in, well, like, er, robot that mines the Internet for information.

So, no, I didn't see Bjorn yesterday, but today I noticed Rob because he and I are not psychically bonded at the hip after our battles in cyberspace.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 10:50:36 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: And sometimes....
Message:
And sometimes, you're just so full of shit it isn't funny!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 11:20:34 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Hey Roger, welcome back you bullshit artist!! (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 15:17:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Give it a rest, Joey
Message:
Joey,

Will you

PLEASE

quit doing this? Just stop. There is a point where your hair-trigger nastiness gets a bit much. No one wants to read your attacks on Roger or any other ex. All that fighting wuth Run? What a big waste of time it was. All that fighting with you and Mary and whomever some months ago? Same thing. Just drop it, Joey. Please!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 23:23:20 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give it a rest, Jim
Message:
Regarding Run, it was YOU who made it a habit of going after him.

Regarding Mary, you were just as involved in standing up to her as I was.

And as far as people not wanting to read my attacks on 'Roger or any other exe'...what makes you think that people enjoyed the spectacle of your cyber mutilation of Katie and others?
Therefore, needless to say, I won't be taking your advice.

Good luck!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Apr 19, 2000 at 10:56:28 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: One more thought
Message:
This is the post that was edited by Dave.

There was a reference made to someone having fucked around so much, now his friends need to prop him up.

And can you believe it? He 'edited' that statement out of the post.

What a bunch of chickenshits!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 22:06:04 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give it a rest
Message:
He never fought with me much. I don't count anything under a dozen posts as being too serious. Maybe you could leave me out of this.

Runamok (on vacation)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 16:11:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: The problem I have with taking you at face value
Message:
Rob,

For what it's worth, I basically join the 'Who-gives-a-fuck?' crew and yes, wince a bit in embarrassment whenever someone launches into another 'Where's Rob?' theory. As if it really matters!

But, seeing as you're posting this now I thought I'd tell you why even this post of yours has no credibility with me. You know damn well that all your earlier shenanigans, even if they were no more than the ones you actually admitted to, caused a lot of confusion. Indeed, that's why you posted in the first place. Then you supposedly had a 'crisis of conscience' or something and asked us to believe that. This was when you apparently called me. Remember?

Well, the way I see it, you know full well how you're still a real distraction here, even if only as a perpetual symbol of deceit and false identities. Okay, so in this post here you're claiming, once again, that you're staying off the page, sincerely pondering your (past?) life in the bush of ghosts. Yet you know full well that no one in their right mind can take you at face value. Not this simply anyway.

You could do a lot, with me anyway, to put a lid on this well of confusion by following through and calling me as you said you would. Get off the net, actually talk with someone, make it a bit more real. Let someone here have a real conversation with you for a change. Balance out all the ill-will and well-deserved skepticism borne of your past activity here. You could do all that but you've declined. As it is, I'm left with no choice but to think that you're just as trustworthy now as you ever were. Capiche?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 18:23:37 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The problem I have with taking you at face value
Message:
I understand your feelings entirely, although you did manage to summarise almost an entire year of my life, which I began as a staunch follower of Maharaji and ended in therapy as an ex-cult victim, in one terse, dismissive paragraph.

Perhaps I deserve no more, perhaps I do, it depends upon your perspective and propensity toward compassion. Yes, I would like to talk with someone 'off-line' but the problem is with whom? I did call your number at a time of crisis and got your answering machine, but for whatever reason couldn't find my voice. I was extremely emotionally distressed at the time. Now I imagine there is too little empathy on your part to make another attempt worthwhile. I think I'll keep an eye out for the next 'Latvian' bash and gatecrash it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 14:29:48 (GMT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Rob
Subject: Latvian Bash
Message:
Hey Rob'

You're invited.

Be prepared for mahem.

Anth the Latvian

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 02:00:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: The problem I have with taking you at face value
Message:
Hey man, just call. It's not a big deal. (250) 360-1040.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 19:35:52 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Forum Admin
Subject: Sidebar to Forum Admin
Message:
On reflection, Jim has a point....this is distracting, so I would not feel at all aggrieved if you decided to delete this entire thread. I'll wait for an invitation from you to post again, there is some advice I can offer to current premies and aspirants (apart from 'run like hell from the fat slob')

A simple end to the problem is to similarly delete any and all posts from this Bjorn character and any others you suspect of being 'me'.

ps there is a K review coming up soon, let me know if you want it's location and times.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 16:46:18 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Unravelling confusion
Message:
Jim; isn't this the place for premies or ex-premies to play out their confusion? If people change their minds and suddenly become ex-cult members, are we to continually harp on about their past?

Most cult or ex-cult members are confused because their heads have been messed with. Can't we allow people some leaway because of this? I think we can.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 09:29:06 (GMT)
From: ex
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Røb? + Bjørn? WHO ELSE DOES THIS 'O'?????????????
Message:
Who else has done this wierd O?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Apr 18, 2000 at 13:53:24 (GMT)
From: Jøhnny
Email: None
To: ex
Subject: Røb? + Bjørn? WHO ELSE DOES THIS 'O'?????????????
Message:
Dunnø, but nøt me.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 00:19:56 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: Rob
Subject: Is Bjorn really 'Rob?'
Message:
I don't think you'd be diswelcome here, Rob and I'm sure nobody would object. You surely must realise that the net is a brilliant breeding ground for conspiracy theories and some of the ones bandied about here are pretty amazing. Most people take it all with a pinch of salt though and don't take it seriously.

Of of course, you are officially invited to that other place, The ANYTHING GOES Forum and are welcome to drop in any time you like. I realise your real name might not actually be 'Rob' but to save further confusion or Rob imposters, it might be easier if you continued to use that handle or one which is reckognised as being from you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 11:43:35 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Is Dave for real?
Message:
You surely must realise that the net is a brilliant breeding ground for conspiracy theories and some of the ones bandied about here are pretty amazing. Most people take it all with a pinch of salt though and don't take it seriously.

You sound like the captain of the Titanic.

The net lends itself perfectly to deception. Cults are based on deception. And these two phenomena are coming together right on this page.

But forgedabuddit...If Cap'n Dave says there just can't be any fucking around on these pages, then that must be the way it is.

Have fun in dreamland Dave. Oh, and its so nice to see that you've been reunited with your brother Rob.

It simply touches the heart!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 14:34:32 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: Joey
Subject: No, I'm a computer generated simulation
Message:
And I've nothing to say about brother Rob. Whatever you think about him is your business. But not everyone will share your view.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 00:46:50 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Dave
Subject: Thanks Dave
Message:
You must realize it is with some trepidation that I ventured to post here again, but after watching the antics of a few scurrillous individuals besmirching my 'good' name over the past 6 months or more, I felt I'd had enough. I'm perfectly capable of antagonizing people on my own, I don't need others doing it for me.

I think I'll wait now until I see more of a consensus of opinion; I'm quite content to just sit quietly and read the Forum and I don't really know that I have much to contribute anyway.

Perhaps I should attend the upcoming Knowledge Review and save my soul before it's too late?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 01:00:21 (GMT)
From: Oliver
Email: None
To: Rob
Subject: Thanks Dave
Message:
What a wonderful idea Rob. You could go to the knowledge review, and when your soul is not saved, you can come back here and post a report on the 'experience.' What do you think?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 01:06:06 (GMT)
From: Rob
Email: None
To: Oliver
Subject: Soul saving
Message:
It's an interesting idea Oliver, but my therapist would have a fit if she found out I'd gone to a cult meeting. No, I don't know that I'm strong enough yet, but perhaps someone else could do the honors?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:30:12 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: snm?? Single nUde Male gerry?
Message:
Anyway

Ya. And if he was to pull a name out of the air when he was making up a character- Bjorn is just the knind of corny name to pick. I mean even I would pick that one...9:-))

count me in for a rob/robbie analysis, but I would need the archives right about when he freaked out last time and then confessed his charade.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:35:21 (GMT)
From: Space
Email: None
To: trixie
Subject: Clue?
Message:
Surely this Bjorn is from some Scandinavian country like he claims, because of that crossed-thru 'o' in his name. I don't have that character on my (US) keyboard?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 09:25:17 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: None
To: Space
Subject: Clue?
Message:
fact: Rob is a gemini.
I havent checked, but it may be possible to change the keyboard characters according to a language and then translate back to english. There is something like that on my computer - but it is beyond me.

Bjorn is a sincere but premie in character and it wouldnt surprise me at all if it was rob fooling around.
However, Rob is saying he needs healing and is in therapy. If there is any possiblity of that bieng true, along with other things that have been mentioned, then I intend to let them both alone for a while.

I have only recently come back to here after a long break- so I dont know what happened to Rob when he finally started to unravel.

It is not what they each say but it is the similarity in patterns of approach/avoidance and style of referencing. And why out of the blue would rob pop up when bjorn is posting.

by the way rob also used the crossed o in his 'from ' box in this thread.

also rob was in a controlled panic when he saw rumors of legal action on M. and came into the forum to flush out the truth (his own admission)
so when a poster with so many of the same kind of references/patterns/tactics shows up when people are talking about Press releases--

-- dont know- and really dont care. It is no big deal.
the press releases are going ahead so things did not get derailed
as was their preference.

I really think that when the forum decides on a task which will slow Malarky down ( such as organizing windshield drops or press releases ect)- the premies are not dumb and will storm the forum with creepy satsang or 'i am a fence line-help' or just cutting into threads to break up the flow .

Rob was a self appointed guerilla and but was so obvious in this my eyes hurt to read him. An inane smokescreen/confession was effective for days.

Not worth the time and Boycott is the best thing I have heard all day.
take care
Trixie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:09:46 (GMT)
From: Dave (expert in Robism)
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: gErRy
Subject: Is Bjorn really 'Rob?'
Message:
Rob is by nature, an ex-premie (I think) and therefore he could invent certain premie characters to wind us up.

Perhaps this isn't such a bad idea after all as some of these premie characters (whether real or not) do Maharaji a much needed disservice by their strange utterances.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 22:00:15 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: Dave (expert in Robism)
Subject: To Dave (expert in ex-premies)
Message:
You wrote:
'Rob is by nature, an ex-premie (I think) and therefore he could invent certain premie characters to wind us up.'

So that means that the nature of en expremie is to invent certain premie characters to wind you up????

Strange nature I would say, I hope I never get close to have that kind of nature.

As I explained a lot of times I changed names just for the purpose of being able to discuss things.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 23:57:26 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: Bjørn
Subject: To Bjørn (an expert in fjørds)
Message:
The reason for winding up is humour, my dear fellow. Do they have a sense of humour in Norway, or are you like the Germans?

Anyway, my spies have finally got me a photo of Rob so Click here for a photo of Rob and you'll see that he definitely doesn't look Norwegian.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:34:52 (GMT)
From: trixie
Email: None
To: bjorn
Subject: native language
Message:
Rob please, for the panel. write something 100 words long in hour native tongue.
and then translate into english.

amuse us

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 20:42:30 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: trixie
Subject: Dette er mitt morsmål, Trixie
Message:
Er du fornøyd nå?
Translation:
This is my native language, Trixie, Are you pleased now?

By the way, are there some paranoia around here?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 20:01:26 (GMT)
From: Røb
Email: None
To: trixie
Subject: native language
Message:
The deil cam fiddlin' thro' the town,
And danc'd awa wi' th' Exciseman,
And ilka wife cries, 'Auld Mahoun,
I wish you luck o' the prize, man.'
The deil's awa, the deil's awa,
The deil's awa wi' the Exciseman,
He's danc'd awa, he's danc'd awa,
He's danc'd awa wi' the Exciseman.

We'll mak our maut, and we'll brew our drink,
We'll laugh, sing, and rejoice, man,
And mony braw thanks to the meikle black deil,
That danc'd awa wi' th' Exciseman.
The deil's awa, &c.

There's threesome reels, there's foursome reels,
There's hornpipes and strathspeys, man,
But the ae best dance ere came to the land
Was-the deil's awa wi' the Exciseman.

[Translation]

Ladies and gentleman, it is time to rejoice
and relax, for the IRS Auditor has
had to leave for an unexpected audience with the devil.
I propose a toast to him and to our impending tax refund.
Would someone kindly put on a Chieftains CD?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 08:59:52 (GMT)
From: Trixie
Email: None
To: Røb
Subject: tsk tsk this is not good nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 09:43:55 (GMT)
From: Dave
Email: vpost3@hotmail.com
To: Trixie
Subject: Can't you see when someone's pulling your leg? (nt
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 19:04:56 (GMT)
From: Bjørn
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: Bjorn is not 'Rob'
Message:
and you a a mean liar.
You also write;
'But he's fun to torture if you're in to that kind of thing...

Gerry the ultimate asshole snm guy (TM)'

Is snm meaning SM like in sado machoistic. Sounds like you are that kind of person

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 20:15:41 (GMT)
From: Boycott Bjorn ,
Email: None
To: Bjørn
Subject: he's a waste of space and time!! nt
Message:
asshole's out for summer
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 07:57:41 (GMT)
From: Trixie
Email: None
To: Boycott Bjorn ,
Subject: boycott good idea. OK Done
Message:
However, I was never interested in what he had to say. I tune premie speak out of my frequency most of the time. As soon as I read 'peace 'love or that the forum is negative- it is no go for me.
I was only getting Rob fumes from him and was interested in that. If he is not Rob there is still something of a duality about him that is not explained by his alias(s)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 20:50:59 (GMT)
From: Now, is the question
Email: None
To: Boycott Bjorn ,
Subject: to be, or not to be. nt
Message:
a
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 21:14:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: A funny ELK post by a 'seasoned man'
Message:
Andy Lopes

I don't have Knowledge

Andy from Sao Paolo appreciates Knowledge in a different way from most people who post on this site.

I don't have the Knowledge. I am sure I don't need the Knowledge. I consider myself a knowing enough man, and as you see, modesty is my most obvious quality ... I have a girlfriend. She has a joyful nature. She is charming and lovely. She has the Knowledge.

When she is saddened by the troubles of life, and I cannot change her occasional, joyless mood, I tell her, kindly: 'Dearest, take some time, retreat to our guest room, and practice your Knowledge.' And doing so, her sunny eyes shine again. And I feel so good...

As a seasoned man I do accept, respect and applaud what is good for her. And for us.

Welcome Knowledge!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 22:10:31 (GMT)
From: Archie Bunker
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yessireee!!!!
Message:
Whenever da dingbat gets too outa line, like when she has that MSP thingy there, why I just send the little lady to the basement and tell her to do da knowledge. God, it can turn that bitch into a kitten again and leave me in peace to watch the ballgame 'der. And it don't hurt to have her in a good mood (outta dat 'joyless mood' der), why she is ready for sex when I want it, and that's how I want it. And I feel so good... Thanks to the master for giving me back my submissive kitten, der.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:25:05 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Does this guy sell worming pills too? (nt)
Message:
Does this guy sell worming pills too? (nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 23:02:19 (GMT)
From: Testosterone
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sure, Andy, whatever you say
Message:
When she is saddened by the troubles of life, and I cannot change her occasional, joyless mood, I tell her, kindly: 'Dearest, take some time, retreat to our guest room, and practice your Knowledge.' And doing so, her sunny eyes shine again. And I feel so good...

Isn't this just a guy who's found a way to get the bitch out of his hair when she's impossible to be with? Something for all you premie guys to think about. There just might be something to this Knowledge, after all.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 15:21:25 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Testosterone/Jim
Subject: Sure, Andy, whatever you say
Message:
Yeah, that was pretty funny. The guy finds it convenient to ask his woman go in another room to make herself feel better. 'Go to your happy place, dear!' I had a boyfriend like that. 'Aren't you losing your focus, dear? Did you meditate today?' whenever I was not the sunny, angelic vision of feminine spirituality. Grrrr.

Now I wonder why Andy doesn't want to get some knowledge for himself? Maybe then his woman will do the same thing to him!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 22:02:30 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: go helen
Message:
I'm thinking proxy software is the cyber equiv to a slick sports car for some of these guys no?
And the few guys I 'dated' with those, well. I'm HOPING they were the exception not the rule. :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 21:28:42 (GMT)
From: Testosterone
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: A question
Message:
Helen, I've got a question, not just for you, but for all ladies present, at least those who don't embarrass easily. Suppose what Andy is talking about is pre menstrual tension, when my other sister, Progesterone, is really working up a storm in a woman's brain, and making life a bummer. Now, I know, I know - why does a man always have to think it's THAT? Could be something else, right? But lets say, at least SOME of the time, this is what Andy's talking about. I think it's a fair assumption.

Now, here's the question. Does Knowledge help -- Can meditating actually reverse the effects of PMT? Any women care to comment? Personally, I don't see how it can. In order for it to, you'd have to be telling your glands, through meditation, to stop the flow, and I don't see how that's possible. As such, personally, I think Andy is a dreamer. Either that, or he's pulling everybody's leg.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 22:18:39 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Testosterone
Subject: Answer to PMS-
Message:
Well, it's a fair question and I am here to tell ya me own husband's a saint fer putting up with some of my PMS times. I think meditation can help, sure. PMS and premenstrual tension are a mind body thing, The hormones are kicking in but they affect the mind too. Slowing down and meditating can help put things in perspective, if a person is into that.

I find that a long walk or a vigorous swim helps me. Or a good laugh at me own stressed-out crazy self at that time of month. Or a good sob at a sad movie. I guess I turn to what I know will help me at that moment, I don't have a knee-jerk reaction that I *must* meditate when I am in a bad cranky mood. Maybe that is the difference in how ex-premies and premies look at meditation. Now I meditate when I really want to, not because I have been conditioned to feel it is the 'answer' to my problems. The premie program tends to generalize all human problems as our general fucked-upedness and hopelessness. In contrast I find that metacognition of my own emotional vulnerability at that time of the month helps mitigate that specific problem, PMS. In other words, my way out is through using the old noggin, rather than immediately attributing any bad mood as mean old Mr. Mind coming to snatch away 'that bliss, that love, that warm cozy oozing of bliss ness inside.'

I find that human comfort and contact, and knowing how to assess and solve my own problems is the way out of my own jams. Meditation can be good for getting out of a compulsive thought groove, but so can listening to good music, getting out with some friends, or watching a fun TV show. I don't buy into the 'meditation as the way to enlightenment' paradigm anymore.
If ANdy is controlling his girlfriend through knowledge that's kind of sad, his girlfriend, like any 'good' premie, probably feels guilty enough that she doesn't meditate enough

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 23:48:37 (GMT)
From: Daneane
Email: None
To: Helen
Subject: Answer to PMS-
Message:
Being an ignorant failed aspirant myself, I can't say the effects of meditation on PMS, but I have discovered first hand that elimination of dairy and caffeine makes the cycle a cakewalk.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:36:55 (GMT)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: Daneane
Subject: Don't take away my latte :) (nt)
Message:
ghjhla;
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 22:10:05 (GMT)
From: gErRy
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A funny ELK post by a 'seasoned man'
Message:
Well my goodness ! I think I might just be inspired enough to give this 'Knowledge' another try !!!

In a pig's ass, that is !!!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 09:50:43 (GMT)
From: xxpremie
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: gerry, the ultimate asshole...
Message:
in person
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Apr 17, 2000 at 20:27:32 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: xxpremie
Subject: Don't tell me - you're the penultimate prick? (nt)
Message:
Don't tell me - you're the penultimate prick? (nt)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Apr 16, 2000 at 15:55:50 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: xxpremie
Subject: this is cyberspace, jerk, not 'in person...'
Message:
gimme something else to work with, besides just 'asshole.' Was it the 'pig's ass' that offended thee? Just an old Pennsylvania Dutch saying.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 23:05:04 (GMT)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: gErRy
Subject: A funny ELK post by a 'seasoned man'
Message:
You can't blame this seasoned guy. He has the convenient ability to get into the spirit of things. If his girlfriend asked him if she looks fat in a certain dress, you can bet Andy wouldn't say yes. And when she sees all the nice things he said on ELK, you know there's-a-goin' to be romance at the Lopes household tonight.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, Apr 15, 2000 at 19:58:01 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Milliways, The Restaurant at the end of the Univer
Message:
Welcome to Milliways: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index