Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 10:57:15 (GMT)
From: Mar 01, 2000 To: Mar 13, 2000 Page: 5 Of: 5


Sir David -:- Shouldn't have pretended to be God, Maharaji -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 02:01:42 (GMT)
__ DOD -:- SIR DAVID--YOU'RE AMAZING--WELL SAID (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 19:57:29 (GMT)
__ Monmot -:- Shouldn't have pretended to be God, Maharaji -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 05:47:33 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- Shouldn't have pretended to be God, Maharaji -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:59:37 (GMT)
__ mir -:- And who are you...the angel of death? -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 05:39:43 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- Maybe not but I'm sure the devil -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 17:49:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ The Mirror -:- Maybe not but I'm sure the devil -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 20:23:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- ****WARNING! SPIRITUAL CLAPTRAP!**** -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 20:39:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- You have just copped out -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 20:52:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, the devil made me do it -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:08:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- Hey, the devil made me do it -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:21:53 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- And who are you...the angel of death? -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:49:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ Selene -:- And who are you...the angel of death? -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 04:29:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ mir -:- And who are you...the angel of death? -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:04:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Look a little closer, mir -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:35:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- Okay, let's -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 20:46:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- It's Not That Simple -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 19:05:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- It's Not That Simple -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 22:06:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Mir, that's utter bullshit -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 22:40:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- Don't be so confrontational JW -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 23:46:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Doubletalk, Mirror -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 06:10:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mirror -:- Closed-mindedness JW -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:28:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- What the Hell is Your Trip? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:52:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- What's yours? -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 16:18:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Don't be so condescending Mr Mirror -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:41:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Don't be so condescending Mr Mirror -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 11:48:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Positive fruits? Like putting m out of commission -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 22:13:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- Positive fruits? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 00:33:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- There's no talking to idiots like you -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- Especially when you're incapable of reason -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:37:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do you have any idea how dumb that was? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:43:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- Why do I waste my time with jerk-offs like you? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 04:55:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Imagine this was real life, m'kay? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 05:05:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- How do you storm a Normandy beach -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:24:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- How silly -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:02:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- A cry in the wilderness -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:58:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- You're making me cry -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 13:08:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- You're making me cry -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 03:34:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Harry, you're just the guy I'd want in my corner -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:36:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- You don't get it Sunshine. -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 22:55:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jackie -:- Indian Court Case -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 05:19:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's ridiculous, Harry -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:10:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Spiritual means denying human emotions -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 05:47:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Not only possible, but it tastes good too. -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 10:35:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Not only possible, but it tastes good too. -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 11:58:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Too deep for me -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 12:42:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Harry -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 13:16:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Hal -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 13:32:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Spiritual means denying human emotions -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 07:30:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Sorry, Hal, but that's bullshit -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 16:47:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Sorry, Jim. -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 23:58:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- And why do you say that, Hal? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 00:54:38 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- And why do you say that, Hal? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 08:48:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Harry hates hate -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:24:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What the fuck are you talking about? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:31:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Hear any good jokes -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:21:06 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Why are you here anyway, Harry? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 04:28:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Why are you here anyway, Harry? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 07:26:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- You don't owe an explanation -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 21:02:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Hey chicky babe. -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 23:03:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Spiritual means feeling a cut above the rest -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 12:49:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- Spirituality means blah blah blah -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 13:15:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Spiritual means feeling a cut above the rest -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 13:10:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Love is when you don't have any teeth -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 13:24:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- I love you Jim -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:01:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Eva Peron -:- M only cries for his poor self and Argentina (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 22:03:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- How silly -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:35:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Aha! The perfect premie answer! -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:14:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- Thus spake the devil -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:36:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, that's a big word! -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:57:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- Hey, that's a big word! -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 02:05:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- An example of Maharaji's hate -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:57:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- If you think just because he got angry he hates... -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 17:11:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- But that WAS the question, Mir -- remember? -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:10:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirr -:- Maybe, but neither us know so give it up -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 17:14:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's the stupidest question yet -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 21:39:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- Sorry you disapprove -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 21:50:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Two can play that game, mir -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 21:54:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirror -:- Two can play that game, mir -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 23:29:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Mirror, a last word if I may? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 00:20:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jackie -:- Mirror, a last word if I may? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:00:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's hilarious, Jackie -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 04:37:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Uh oh, Jim -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 17:02:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Uh oh, gerry...you're right on this one. -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:24:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Joey you are the biggest tosser ever -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 23:29:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Have a nice life Hal...I luv ya too! (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 23:44:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You guys are nuts -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 19:09:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- thank you Jim! -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 21:05:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ I can't spell -:- uh I meant deprogrammer - nt -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 21:07:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- Mirror, a last word if I may? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 00:36:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- since MIR won't answer you I will -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:43:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- He's feeding us the lines -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 19:04:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- More stuff and nonsense from mir -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:34:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Harry -:- More stuff and nonsense from mir -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 22:33:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Wt -:- More stuff and nonsense from mir -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 05:22:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ mir -:- More stuff and nonsense from mir -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:07:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Draco -:- HATE IS PASSION - HATE IS GOOD!!! nt -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 00:17:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rocky -:- HATE IS PASSION - HATE IS GOOD!!! nt -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:01:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- Thus spake Attilla the hungry (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:39:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Do you actually believe this nonsense? -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:12:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mirro -:- Of course I do -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:28:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- MIR...hugely hypocritical -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:31:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mirror -:- The pot calling the kettle black -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:18:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well then, Mirror -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:21:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- So your years of service gives you the right, hmmm -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 02:01:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Another PERFECT cult member answer! -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:17:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ The Mirror -:- No here's the perfect answer -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 18:13:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Too funny. Typical, pathetic, yet still hilarious -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 22:08:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- Typical playing of your nonsensical tapes -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 00:47:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Blatant evasion, Mir -- You a premie by chance? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:26:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- Blatant evasion, Mir -- You a premie by chance? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:33:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- That's a laugh -- and still beside the point -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:56:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ mir -:- What a ridiculous challenge -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 17:21:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ David Frost -:- The pot calling the kettle black -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:40:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ Steve -:- And who are you...the angel of death? -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 12:47:14 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Shouldn't have pretended to be God, Maharaji -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 04:06:55 (GMT)
__ __ Gerry -:- The Constant Debate... -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:41:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The Constant Debate... But do I win a prize??? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 13:05:20 (GMT)

Brian -:- Premie email - From Bad To Worthed -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 01:31:39 (GMT)
__ Tami Rainbow -:- Premie email - From Bad To Worthed -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 05:51:45 (GMT)
__ JW -:- Is BAD ENGLISH (and Spelling) a Req. to be a PWK? -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:16:14 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- LOL LOL -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:39:10 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Premie email - SO nasty!! PWK are :( people (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 13:26:29 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Premie email - From Bad To Worthed -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 05:13:13 (GMT)
__ __ bb -:- A note from Bahari Ji? -nt -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 05:34:13 (GMT)

JW -:- Academy Awards (Oscars) -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:02:40 (GMT)
__ Susan -:- JW, this is one of the best of the bests! ( nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 15:33:42 (GMT)
__ bb -:- An Oscar for J.W.-------(nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 05:35:46 (GMT)
__ Selene -:- Academy Awards (Oscars) -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 01:35:34 (GMT)
__ DOD -:- Academy Awards (Oscars) -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:10:07 (GMT)

Way -:- Instructor Raja Ji -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:57:22 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Instructor Raja Ji -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 19:32:28 (GMT)
__ __ Scott T. -:- Instructor Raja Ji -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 23:30:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ gerry -:- Wrong, Scott -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 01:28:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Scott T. -:- It's OT, but... -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 03:52:02 (GMT)
__ __ Way -:- Instructor Raja Ji -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 20:20:00 (GMT)

Joey -:- and heeeeeeerrre's.....Eichmann! -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:38:14 (GMT)

Djuro -:- Knowledge -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:09:52 (GMT)
__ Scott T. -:- Knowledge -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 23:08:02 (GMT)
__ __ cqg -:- buying the Brooklyn Bridge from a cab driver - HA! -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 20:15:15 (GMT)
__ Jerry -:- Knowledge -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:57:00 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Knowledge -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:56:01 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave, again -:- OK, sorry Mr Djuro, here's my real answer -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 23:48:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ cqg -:- Clear as a cucumber, Sir Dave. Thanx! (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 19:31:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- P.S. Dave, is this you? -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 19:37:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- P.S. Dave, is this you? -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:30:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- No way is djuro me, Dave. What a thought! :~? (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 08:55:34 (GMT)

Djuro -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:12:08 (GMT)
__ Elvis Fan -:- The King -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 15:32:25 (GMT)
__ The King -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 23:18:18 (GMT)
__ __ cqg -:- well! It's .... another one for the money? (nt) -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 19:40:36 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:59:23 (GMT)
__ __ Djuro -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:19:36 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:25:52 (GMT)
__ __ Djuro -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:45:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:59:12 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Djuro -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:11:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:13:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ dj -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:22:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 19:03:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Loafji -:- The King -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 19:00:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- use the 'subject' field for short messages with nt -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:37:31 (GMT)

Jean-Michel -:- The Grapevine Online: no need to go to events! -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 16:59:44 (GMT)

Hal -:- psychology of devotion -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 16:01:56 (GMT)
__ Jackie -:- Parlor Psychology -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 03:44:21 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Parlor Psychology -:- Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 07:25:04 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- psychology of devotion -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 19:12:52 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- psychology of devotion -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:58:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- psychology of devotion -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 22:22:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ cqg -:- Wasn't it 'a little child' that would lead? (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 20:06:08 (GMT)
__ Gregg -:- Dear Old Dad -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 16:49:47 (GMT)
__ __ Hal -:- Thanks for the feedback Gregg n. t. -:- Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:24:12 (GMT)


Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 02:01:42 (GMT)
From: Sir David
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Shouldn't have pretended to be God, Maharaji
Message:

The writing is on the wall Maharaji. You can't get away with conning thousands of people into genuinely believing you are God incarnate and having them give you their lives in the belief that you are their God.

What the fuck do you you think people are Maharaji? Do you really think they are such simple minded sheep that you could get away with that?

You can't get away with this in the West. Maharaji, they're after your blood. You're finished. Have you never heard of hurt and revenge? You have underestimated the passion which lay in the hearts of your (then) devotees.

You are a blind fool Maharaji if you think that you can just carry on and pretend that you never claimed to be God. Because you see, 'The Lord' really does mean a lot to us. You made a lot of people really believe that the impossible had happened and that God truly had come to Earth with full power and glory.

Oh boy - you've really underestimated the true power of the feeling which lies within people. You really don't know, do you. You really don't know what makes people tick.

You really don't know what you've done.

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 19:57:29 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: SIR DAVID--YOU'RE AMAZING--WELL SAID (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 05:47:33 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Shouldn't have pretended to be God, Maharaji
Message:
Sir Dave:

It's obvious from reading 'Message in a Bottle' below that M thinks people are dispassionate and unreliable vehicles whom he can bully into being 'passionate and reliable vehicles.' Since when are people vehicles? Use of that word exposes the belief that premies are not people, but mere vehicles to be driven into the ground and then dumped in the junkyard when all used up. He slashes their tires and then complains about unreliable vehicles. And what the hell is a passionate vehicle anyway? Such hubris and solipsism. Donnez-moi un break.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:59:37 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Shouldn't have pretended to be God, Maharaji
Message:
Yeah, good points. Maharaji's terminology gets more bizarre by the minute! Exactly how do you become a passionate vehicle, for Christ's sake? Well Maharaji, there's some pretty passionate people on this forum - look at all those 'vehicles' you've rejected and condemned to the scrap heap.

It follows logically that all the people who are still premies are less passionate than the ex-premies. They must be less passionate to have put up with decades of crap and not turned a hair. So where's he gonna get these passionate vehicles from?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 05:39:43 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: And who are you...the angel of death?
Message:
Have a glass of wine and chill Dave. You trying to start a holy war or something? Believe me you don't want to take the lid off that one...makes you feel all powerful at first but gets ugly when it all starts to slide into hell. And in case you care Dave hell is where hate takes you, every f--king time!!

Maharaji's far from being finished just because an emotion charged guy like you says he is. You underestimate his resolve. As passionate as you appear to be, there are many more with passion to see his message communicated to the world. Difference between them and you is most of them are quite rational people.

While I'm at it, I was thinking about Jim's diatride re, hating premies. It's right that he hates premies you know. I mean if the devil didn't hate the truth there'd be something wrong with the universe. So here's a question for you. Does the devil know he's the devil, or like everyone else does he just think he's doing the right thing? Know him by his fruits Dave. The fruit of the devil is hatred.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 17:49:25 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Maybe not but I'm sure the devil
Message:
1) Our venomous campaign against Maharaji might not amount consitute a death blow to his cult but you have to admit it's sure causing him some problems. Where this all leads, no one can say. But two things are clear: this site is very damaging for him and he knows it.

2) Your comment on me shows, once again, that you're a very naive thinker. Just because the devil hates and I hate doesn't make me the devil. Hey, I used to have a moustache too. So what?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 20:23:08 (GMT)
From: The Mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe not but I'm sure the devil
Message:
Jim, Jim, Jim! I thought I could count on you to explore ideas as opposed to arguing religious myths.

The concept of a devil is merely a representation of a certain definition of consciousness. Consciousness of what you ask? Consciousness of the energy that permeates existence, whose nature is fundamentally good. Sometimes referred to as ''the supreme energy''. The so-called devil by definition has a low level of consciousness, or awareness, of this energy.

The reason I refer to the devil as a concept is because it really doesn’t exist...unlike the supreme energy. This is similar in theory to the analogy of darkness and light where light exists but darkness doesn’t, as it is merely the absence of light. Similarly, the supreme consciousness exists but the devil represents the absence of that consciousness.

In the absence of the awareness of what exists, this devil consciousness formulates its reality based upon laws that are averse to the fundamental nature of the universe. It’s consciousness is rooted in laws ''that make sense'' in carnal terms, ie; rooted in what can be seen, heard, touched, smelled, or conceptualised. The fact is, the carnal forces never lead a person to the cultivation of the higher qualities dear to the heart, such as love, compassion, kindness, and generally what is good. Individuals who are aware of its existence channel these qualities of the supreme benevolent energy to planet earth.

On the flip side, a different kind of energy is manifested on the planet by individuals who remove themselves from the influence of this benevolent energy. The more distance these people put between themselves and this energy, the more they take on the characteristics of what we refer to as ''the devil'', until eventually they become totally identified with carnal existence. Invariably their cache of nurturing attributes wither over time until they are eventually undone by their own mortality; the terms of which they unknowingly defined for themselves through years of denial of the eternal.

Oh yeah, the real clincher is that the devil by definition has such an extremely high regard for his own intelligence, he thinks he cannot be fooled. His intelligence thus becomes his weakest attribute because it blocks out any potentially corrective influences in his life.

So, wanna apply for the job? I really think you’re qualified.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 20:39:21 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The Mirror
Subject: ****WARNING! SPIRITUAL CLAPTRAP!****
Message:
That was really interesting, Mirror. What else you got?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 20:52:44 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You have just copped out
Message:
Nothing spritual at all Jim. Too intelligent to talk about such things, huh guy? ;-)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:08:32 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: Hey, the devil made me do it
Message:
Honestly, Mir, it's really hard for me to join you on your level. Your thoughts are so impacted with stupid assumptions and what you actually do with those assumptions ain't pretty either. Now, I guess you live in a world where people actually think like that. But I don't. And I think you're an idiot. You've bought the whole spiritual grab bag of universal consciousness permeating everything and the inevitable corollary that anyone not experiencing it is enshrouded in some force of darkness. I can't take any of that seriously. Sorry.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:21:53 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, the devil made me do it
Message:
Well I'm not sure I want to sink to whatever level you are on so yeah, who cares what you think.

But tell me, are you going to take the job?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 10:49:46 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: And who are you...the angel of death?
Message:
There's no such thing as the Devil, except in people's imaginations. But you misinterpret strong feeling for hatred. I don't hate Maharaji and I've often said that here. Why do you immediately label strong emotion as hatred?

But there's another fallacy which people like you have and that is, you think that hatred is somehow 'wrong'. Why deny a basic human emotion? It's there, everybody feels it at some time and to some extent.

Now, I will present you with this idea; that while I don't hate Maharaji, I'm pretty sure he hates this web site. Who could blame him?

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 04:29:41 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: And who are you...the angel of death?
Message:
Sir Dave
How DO you keep ending up in this devil role?
I keep thinking of that last unpleasantness.
I'll skip the details.
M said once 'If you are a Christian I will make
you a better Christian.'
Guess he meant I'll make you a better fundamentalist
Christian'
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:04:12 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: And who are you...the angel of death?
Message:
Come on Dave, take a good look at this ethos of yours you so passionately are preaching about. If you justify hatred just because humans experience it, then by that logic you open the door to justifying murder, child abuse, theft and other apparently natural human acts. And it’s okay to live in fear because we all have fears, right? And envy and jealousy is completely acceptable, right?

Look, recognising the existence of these traits is one thing…accepting them for yourself is contingent upon your own personal standards for yourself.

As for M hating this site, how the hell would you know? Oh yeah, idle speculation is another human trait you should look at too.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:35:17 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Look a little closer, mir
Message:
Come on Dave, take a good look at this ethos of yours you so passionately are preaching about. If you justify hatred just because humans experience it, then by that logic you open the door to justifying murder, child abuse, theft and other apparently natural human acts. And it’s okay to live in fear because we all have fears, right? And envy and jealousy is completely acceptable, right?

Hatred is a pretty common human emotion which is neither justified nor unjustified out of context. Murder, on the other hand, is, by definition, 'unjustified homocide'. Some homocides are justifed but not murder. Same with child abuse; it's unjustified by definition. Theft? Same thing. But hatred, again, is either okay or not depending on the circumstances.

Now here's a question for you: do you think it's okay for ex cult members to hate their former cult leader? I'm not asking about Maharaji in particular. My question's simple. What's your answer?

BTW, do you think Maharaji hates this site?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 20:46:56 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Okay, let's
Message:
Hatred is a pretty common human emotion which is neither justified nor unjustified out of context. Murder, on the other hand, is, by definition, 'unjustified homocide'. Some homocides are justifed but not murder. Same with child abuse; it's unjustified by definition. Theft? Same thing. But hatred, again, is either okay or not depending on the circumstances.

You are right by the terms of the legal system. The legal system does not punish people until they act upon their impulses. So you can argue that hatred is neither right nor wrong, within the legal system’s definition of right and wrong.

But I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about taking a step back and seeing the effect of hatred to the individual and to society. In that respect civil-minded people without question decry hatred in all its forms. It unfortunately has never been “”channelled” into productive long-term benefits, even though sometimes it appears to answer the impulse of the moment.

What it comes down to is just this Jim: Just as child pornography fuels the impulse to have sex with children, hatred fuels the impulse to manifest hateful acts, which could be murder, theft, or some other form of cruelty.

On your question about the anonymous ex-cult member hating their ex-leader: Hate in the long run benefits nobody. If your goal is long-term benefit it is not right. If you just want to satisfy your momentary impulse who cares?

Does he hate this site? What a dumb question. Unlike you I cannot be bothered with idle speculation.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 19:05:02 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: It's Not That Simple
Message:
You shouldn't think in such black and white terms. There are all different degrees of hatred. Some survivors of the Holocaust hate Hitler, even though he's dead. This is understandable, and healthy. If they didn't feel hatred, I think that would be unhealthy, or maybe some form of repression, which is good for no one. The same is true of survivors of child abuse.

But being CONSUMED by hatred, just like being CONSUMED with some kind of screwed up devotion to a charlatan 'Master' is also not a good thing. But hatred, in and of itself, isn't inherently bad. When someone has been abused and completely disempowered, like a victim of the holacaust, the victim of child abuse, and some would say this applies to a former premie who gave up everything and tried to even stop thinking in the name of Guru Maharaj Ji, I think anger and hatred are ways of taking your power back from charlatans like Maharaji. It's a healthy thing.

And in my time posting on the Forum, I have yet to see even ONE ex-premie who is CONSUMED by hatred for Maharaji. Sure, when premies first leave, and become ex-premies, there is a flood of emotion, when one realizes how ripped-off one has been. There is anger and hatred, and that is completely justified in my view. But then, ex-premies incorporate that into their lives and move on. They may never lose entirely the hatred and anger they feel for Maharaji because of what he did to them, but it becomes incorporated into the larger framework of who someone is.

I my experience, many premies, and other followers of so-called 'spiritual paths' are sometimes very afraid of feeling anger and hatred. They think they aren't supposed to have those feelings and so they repress them, pretend they aren't there, and that makes people nuts. I know I was that way as a premie. When I stopped being a premie, I began to feel those things again, and it felt very good. It felt like I was human again. Obviously, I had to channel it in a way that wasn't destructive, but that's true of any emotion you have.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 22:06:10 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: It's Not That Simple
Message:
Some survivors of the Holocaust hate Hitler, even though he's dead. This is understandable, and healthy. If they didn't feel hatred, I think that would be unhealthy, or maybe some form of repression, which is good for no one.

Nothing to substantiate this claim. On the contrary there are much documented historical examples of hatred not being “healthy”.

Obviously, I had to channel it in a way that wasn't destructive, but that's true of any emotion you have.

Fact is there are differing degrees of stability demonstrated on this site. You may be one of the more stable ones. What about the ones who aren’t. You gonna control their hatred for them?

Try this on JW, hatred never bears positive fruit. You may experience it, and part of the journey may be accepting it and identifying its roots but if you want to heal you must leave it behind.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 22:40:48 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Mir, that's utter bullshit
Message:
Well, first of all, have you ever talked to, or read about Holacaust survivors and the way they deal with, and incorporate the horrors that were inflicted on them? There has been a lot written about this and contrary to your unsubstantiated claim, anger and hatred (I don't make a distinction, here, they are the same emotion as far as I am concerned), are mechanisms for taking back control. How do you incorporate experiences like that into your life? Do you say that being angry isn't helpful and so just don't experience it, don't let yourself experience it, invalidat irt? That's really stupid.

You have the power to direct your anger. It's yours. If you read about people recoving from child abuse, these emotions have the same positive effects. There is also a survival element here. How far would a species get if it didn't feel anger for having been done wrong?

Mir, you completely contradict yourself. First, you say hatred never bears positive fruits and they you say you learn from it. That learning process IS the positive fruit. And it's no different than any other emotion. You process it and grow. But I disagree that you 'leave it behind.' It's a part of you, and thinking you have to get rid of it is dangerous and sick.

Does jealousy bear positive fruits? Does greed or competition result in anything positive? You could make your simplistic argument about anything. The fact is, these things are not good or bad in and of themselves. That's my point. It's how you deal with and act on them that is good or bad. And in my opinion, repressing them, or invalidating them, which is what I think you are suggesting, and what a lot of new age spiritual crap and which premies and Maharaji advocate, has a stunting, negative effect on people.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 23:46:18 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Don't be so confrontational JW
Message:
In dealing with my own experiences of oppression while growing up, which I won’t go into here, I went through a series of emotions. The mark left by those experienced was indeed anger, not hate. To say that anger and hate are the same emotion is utterly ridiculous.

Anger can indeed be directed to liberate one from oppression. Hatred on the other hand is a chronic condition that leads to decay if left unchecked. I said healing can happen, which is a positive thing, if you deal with your hatred and come through it. But it is not hatred that is positive but the process of reconciliation, which is an indication of the character of the individual. The character of the individual is either kind or hateful. Generally hateful people adopt their hatred; kind people learn to get past it.

You don’t seem to have the discernment to differentiate between these two aspects.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 06:10:09 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: Doubletalk, Mirror
Message:
Well, I'm not so sure it makes sense to take your personal experiences and make some kind of a universal principle out of them. Hatred is basically animosity towards someone or something, usually because one feels wronged, in other words one feels anger. I think your distinctions are meaningless. So, 'hatred' is chronic, and anger isn't. That's the first time I've ever heard that unique distinction, and, again, I think it's a meaningless distinction.

And I think it's extreme prejudice to, again, use your black and white judgements to say people fall into the categories of hateful or kind. I think history shows that given the right situation, otherwise kind peole can be very hateful. Read the book 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' if you would like to see examples of that, about how the German population was complicit in what Hitler did. And the most 'hateful' people can be kind in certain situations. I am told Hitler loved his dogs and was quite kind to children. Things are just not like your simplistic world, Mir, people do not fall neatly into the categories you suggest.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:28:06 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Closed-mindedness JW
Message:
You muddy the waters JW. Sure there's a little bit of all things in evey one of us. There are however within everyone of us traits that dominate. It would for example be unlikely for a nazi jew killer to turn around and express kindness and understanding to homosexuals. It is also as highly unlikely that Mother Theresa would end up collaborating with the extremely prejudiced Hindu right-wing party in India.

But it is entirely probable that Mother Theresa got angry from time to time, as it is probable the nazi jew killer was kind to his kids. So contrary to your disregard for a distinction between anger and hate, it is far from meaningless.

What is the dominant force? A person inclined towards hatred will adopt and embrace his ''justified'' reasons to hate, whereas a kind-hearted person will feel uncomfortable until they can get past their hatred.

Bottom line JW is that you find yourself down a completely untenable path here regarding the ''value'' of hatred. It is poison, and unless you want to be part of the problem in this world, you have no business indulging in it. All you have to do is be on the receiving end of it and you know I'm right. You of all people should be aware of that.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:52:49 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: What the Hell is Your Trip?
Message:
I think I understand your theory, Miror, this idea that one has to cleanse themselves of negative feelings. I think that is hogwash, newage claptrap, and I have no idea why you think I, as opposed to anyone else would agree with you. The real bottom line is that the real damage of 'hatred' is when people act on it. That's when people get hurt, not because someone feels it. You seem to think there is some inherent damage in feeling anger, and I think that's nonsense. And what you choose to ignore is that it is really damaging to follow your new age nonsense and suggest that feeling anger and hatred is bad and that one shouldn't do it. That leads to repression, displacement, and mental illness.

What is ireally 'untenable' in your argument is that people can't help what they feel. Maybe they are justified in feeling it and maybe they are mistaken. But that is beside the point. One is only on the receiving end of 'hatred' if somebody decides to act on it, not because somebody is feeling it. There is a very big difference there, which you don't seem to recognize. Fact is, Mirror, you haven't a clue what is going on in anyone else's head -- what kind of conflicts and emotions they are feeling. The only time you get any whiff of that is when people act on those feelings, and even then you can only guess.

And I think you are very narrow minded to suggest that that people here are consumed with hatred or that one has to follow your prescription to get 'beyond' whatever it is they are feeling, whether it be anger or hatred (which are the same thing, despite your unique definition.)

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 16:18:39 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What's yours?
Message:
JW I'll make it simple for you. I oppose your idea that hate is healthy. It is only healthy if you get over it. The process of getting over it is healthy. Implicit in that statement is most of us experience it from time to time. I never said for a second not to recognise it and accept it. The difference is evil people find comfort in their hatred. Does that apply to you?

BTW Good and evil are not 'new-age clap trap' ideas. You claiming it is such however is anti-new age clap-trap.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:41:17 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: Don't be so condescending Mr Mirror
Message:
I've got a nice little computer virus that a friend gave me. Would you hate it if I sent it to you as a present and completely messed up your nice, well ordered computer and made you lose most of your data? Let me find your email address and it's yours as a gift. And you won't even know I've given it to you, until...

Or what about if the guy who had been responsible for torturing and murdering your daughter was about to be sent for trial and at the last minute was set free on 'compassionate grounds' because he was thought to be too ill to stand trial and then you saw him on TV back home again, smiling and laughing and not really ill at all.

I'm sure even you would hate that.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 11:48:52 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Don't be so condescending Mr Mirror
Message:
I think what Mirror is doing, as so many 'well wishing' premies before him, is suggesting that we cleanse ourselves of the hatred we feel for M before it consumes us, that leaving the hatred behind is essential to the healing process. How kind of him.

Last night, I saw a show where two woman met their attacker in prison 20 years after the crime he commited against them. They went there not to tell him what a prick he was, but to cleanse themselves of whatever hatred and ill will they felt toward him, to regain the dignity which he stole from them. But, and this is important, only because their attacker agreed to meet with them, was the healing process allowed to begin. Do you get that, Mir?

There are a lot of ex-premies, who dedicated a substantial part of their lives to Mahraji, who would love to meet with him, just to discuss with him what happenned, to have their say with the man, himself, and to hear what the man has to say for himself. Maharaji knows this. He could pop up on this forum anytime, if he wanted, and have a group discussion. He never will. He's already got from those exes what he wanted, their time, energy, and money. Now that they've withdrawn it, he doesn't want anything to do with them. That's the kind of prick he is. If there is healing to be done, Maharaji isn't going to do anything to contribute to it.

So, Mirror. Maybe you can talk to your master, and tell him about all the healing those poor ex-premies need, and would he please contribute his part by meeting with them? Do you think he will? Don't make me laugh.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 22:13:18 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Positive fruits? Like putting m out of commission
Message:
Mir, hatred can easily 'bear positive fruits'. The allies hated Hitler so they wiped him out. I hate Maharaji and it fuels my efforts to drive him out of business or, at the very least, to make his life a little less enjoyable, his cult a little less lucrative, his flock a little smaller ... you know.

Do you ever think about what you're saying? Sure doesn't seem like it.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 00:33:20 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Positive fruits?
Message:
It wasn't hatred that stopped Hitler. It was firm resolve, good leaders, planning, and money. It was however the Nazi's hatred for the Jews that started the holocast in the first place.

Hate is ugly Jim! Only a fool would dispute that.

Do YOU ever think about what you're saying?

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:02:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: There's no talking to idiots like you
Message:
You're stupid, Mir. Stupid, stupid, stupid. Stupid with your stupid word games, your senseless, superficial new age psychology, your meaningless distinctions. I'm amazed at how dumb you premies choose to be. Proof that all that time trying to get out of your mind has an extremely detrimental effect.

Listen, fool, the allies hated Hitler! They hated him, they fought him with all they had, they beat him. And Maharaji hated the family that deserted him. That embarrassed, robed and undermined him in front of the whole world (as far as he was concerned). And he hates us too and you know it.

Fuck off with your disingenuine crap. I hate premie liars like you!

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:37:11 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Especially when you're incapable of reason
Message:
Listen, fool, the allies hated Hitler! They hated him, they fought him with all they had, they beat him.

Give me a break you pompous, opinionated little jerk. You’re such a useless conversationalist your only recourse when confronted with an argument that makes sense is to get belligerent. If you had any insight at all you would understand it takes more than hatred to beat a well trained and supplied army like the Germans. The Chinese hated the Japanese but were limp noodles on the battle field. No hatred had little to do with the victory.

And Maharaji hated the family that deserted him.

And how would you know?

Fuck off with your disingenuine crap. I hate premie liars like you!

Your hatred of me is but a symptom of a decayed character Jim. I pity you.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:43:43 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: Do you have any idea how dumb that was?
Message:
If you had any insight at all you would understand it takes more than hatred to beat a well trained and supplied army like the Germans.

God, you're so DUMB! Where did I ever say that hate -- and hate alone -- was enough to do anything? That wasn't the point, fool. The point was that they hated him. Which they did.

By the way, have you ever posted here under another name before?
If so, what?

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 04:55:30 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why do I waste my time with jerk-offs like you?
Message:
Well that's a good question now that I ask it. So scram Jim! Go pontificate to your other like minded hate lovers who'll understand you. I personally don't want to.
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 05:05:54 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: Imagine this was real life, m'kay?
Message:
Mirror,

Imagine we're sitting around in the real world. A couple of friends of both of ours are there. None of them premies. Imagien you start saying some of the things you've said here. We can't judge m without the whole story but we're not entitled to the whole story because a) he's m and b) we might not judge him the way you or he would like. Just imagine that, will you?

You know what you'd sound like? A complete idiot. That's what. Imagine that, will you?

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:24:24 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: These spiritual people
Subject: How do you storm a Normandy beach
Message:
when you're absolutely terrified and your friends are being shot in the water all around you?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:02:31 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: How silly
Message:
What you need to do, Mirror, is get a new thinking cap. What is hatred, anyway, but strong, emotional revulsion, antipathy, animosity against something or someone? And aren't there things and people that deserve that? Of course there are. But don't believe me, ask your guru.

Ask your guru how he felt about his brother when they went to court in India fighting over the spoils of Divine Light Mission? There's his very own brother --brothers -- and who's that with them? Mom? Et tu, mommy? And whaat are they doing? Trying to strip away his entire fledgling fortune, trying to embarass him, the Lord of the Universe, with the whole world watching? Ask Maharaji if he's ever hated anyone.

Or ask Maharaji how he feels about me putting up his dear, sweet (if stupid) wife's sickbed letter up on the net, the one in which she reveals how hopelessly incapable she is to deal with the world, how utterly pathetic and ignorant she is? Ask him how he felt about me then? Ask him if he's ever known hate?

Or ask him how he's felt about many of us making fun of his fat, greasy ugly physique .... nom forget that, ask him how he felt when we started pulbishing all these nasty 'rumours' about him fucking his long-term mistress Monica Lewis and all that? Ask him then to tell you about hate.

I'm all set to learn a 'new way'. So let's start with the guru.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:58:18 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: A cry in the wilderness
Message:
Jim, your judging other peoples reactions to circumstances by your own. I'm as common and base as the next guy, but if someone did a lot of low and shitty stuff to me, then I wouldn't hate them. I may pity them, or feel sorrow for them, avoid them, but not hate them. I'd also realise that 'but there for the grace of God go I'. Hate has a way of turning on you. It's like a canker of the soul, and not everyone buys into it.
Who knows Jim, M may feel great love for you. See you as a lost child in the wilderness. He may even pray for you at night with tears of compassion flowing freely down his cheeks. Now there's a cheerie thought hey.
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 13:08:42 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: You're making me cry
Message:
Who knows Jim, M may feel great love for you. See you as a lost child in the wilderness. He may even pray for you at night with tears of compassion flowing freely down his cheeks.

LOL. That was a joke. Right? You don't really think this is possible. Do you? If that's the way he feels, he knows where to find us to let us know. But, alas, so far, not a peep. Hmmmm.

Harry, I think some of the things you've said about understanding where people came from and the effect that's had on making them who they are is right on. But this notion you have about Maharaji's tears on his pillow is a howler, boy! You're not really serious. You couldn't be.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 03:34:20 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: You're making me cry
Message:
Hi Jerry,
yeah, of course I was joking. I had this mental image of Maharaji sitting in a field of poppies, multi coloured butterflies floating about his head, with the early morning light turning the day to magic. He is sitting there praying for Jim with tears streaming down his boy god face.
Jim is in front of his computer in a state of disarray, a bottle of Scotch at his elbow and a small cowering dog with one leg in plaster, whimpering in fear in a corner. Jim reads a post, slams down a straight whisky, roars in rage and slams his fist through the wall. The dog yelps in fear and pisses all over Jim's foot. Funny images. There's a story there dying to be written.......hmmmmmm :)
I used to feel hate, heaps big hate. Then I moved up here into the foothills of the mountains and started to ride up there. I noticed something happening to me, but I couldn't put my finger on it. It felt like I was being healed, healed inside. I can't say why, but it's a fact Jack. One day I was riding along, thinking evil thoughts about someone, when I realised that that person was just giving me focus for the hate inside of me. It didn't have much at all to do with this other person. It was my hate and I owned it. It could be hate for someone who wronged me, for Hitler, for the Government, religion, take your pick. And about then I just gradually stopped hating. No big deal, I just stopped wasting my time, and started to spend more time looking at the flowers, etc. Heaps more fun.
A friend of mine reckons that we are where we need to be, and it's all relevant. I don't really believe that, but it's a nice thought.
Cheers
Harry
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:36:02 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Harry, you're just the guy I'd want in my corner
Message:
In a fight. No matter what, you'd say 'let's get out of here'. If the guy stole my car, you'd say let him have it, it's not worth the hassle. My girlfriend? Lots of fish in the sea. It's just not worth getting all worked up for. Nothing is. We should all be like Harry. No injustice too big to overlook, no value so great it's worth fighting for. Just ho hum, la dee da, kind of not too involved in aynthing, just floating, really .....
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 22:55:59 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You don't get it Sunshine.
Message:
My God, I didn't realise my life was so lacking in colour, so grey. Is it true that it's hatred and anger that galvanises man into action? Ya learn something everyday hey. This is what your implying isn't it?
I'd rather have a man with a cool head watching my back, rather than some over emotional hothead. The thing is, that if I feel myself getting really angry about something and I take the time to look out my window at the mountains, then the anger just falls away, 'cause I can see the absurdity of the situation. There just ain't much worth getting all fired up about. There were some friends here on the weekend drinking wine and the conversation turned to Monica and Clinton, and before ya know it, their in the middle of big arguement. Like, who the fuck cares?
I may not be able to make much of a change in the big, bad world out there, but I can make change in Harry's world. Instead of getting angry about things like starving kids, I try to do something about it, like sponsering a child through world vision. There's keeps of stuff needs doing, but just getting angry don't change nothin'. But I'll concede that some people can make anger work for them, but then hate and anger ain't even in the same ballpark.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 05:19:56 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Indian Court Case
Message:
Hi Jim,

Did I tell you I met the lawyer who worked on the side of m during that case in India? It was a complete coincidence. I gave him and Introductory Video and he told me he was M's lawyer on that Prem Negar Ashram split case. Small world eh - but what a coincidence - woo woo!

Just a little tit-bit. I did want to know though,if I gave him a call or sent him an email would he be able to tell me more about it or would it be confidential? Need your professional advice on this.

Jackie

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:10:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: That's ridiculous, Harry
Message:
Harry,

Ever hear the phrase 'common sense is uncommon'? Neither have I. But anyway, if you're saying you're not capable of hate I say you are either lying or don't know what you're talking about. Yes, even about you. If that's what you say, you're just plain wrong.

And if you think that Maharaji didn't feel hate in the examples I offered, you're dreaming.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 05:47:34 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Spiritual means denying human emotions
Message:
And that's why 'spirituality' is a load of old cobblers. I'm afraid I am not into anything spiritual, Harry. It's a load of baloney as far as I'm concerned. People are what they are. Some people try to aspire to some impossible ideals and they call it being spiritual. It's hogwash.

I've known so called spiritual people and they're no different to anyone else. They just think they're different. It's just another mind set they're in. A spiritual mindset.

Other people are really into football, gardening or chess and they're in those mindsets. People are people and no amount of aspiring to some imaginary concept of spirituality makes them any different.

I might love some people but I wouldn't call that being spiritual. It's just being human. There's alot to being human, so why deny being human and try to be some sort of otherworld non-human spiritual thing. That idea has been fed to people by religious 'experts' and 'spiritual people', who are mostly as mad as hatters.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 10:35:17 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Not only possible, but it tastes good too.
Message:
Hi Dave, I don't think of myself as different or spiritual. In fact I don't know what you mean by 'spiritual'. I'm just me, living life the best way I can, the same as everyone else. The closest I get to spiritual is sitting under a tree and munchin' on some fried soya beans.
There's lots of different ways to react to situations IMO. Take your child molester for instance. It's really easy to take the high moral ground and feel indignation, contempt, loathing and hatred. But this person is a victim too, and it's not such a big jump to feel for him too, and this takes you into worthwhile places within yourself, places that we as men haven't visited much in the past. This hatred stuff is usually a macho response to a situation, and doesn't really help anyone in the long run. It's definitely not going to make you feel any better. What service does it really provide. It's a leftover from our Caveman days IMO, and being a caveman is overated.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 11:58:07 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Not only possible, but it tastes good too.
Message:
Don't preach to us, Harry. It is not wanted and it is most unwelcome.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 12:42:48 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Too deep for me
Message:
Yeah, right Dave. Whatever.
Fucked if I know how you get preaching out of me offering an opinion. That's what forums are for. I could of said the same about you, but why would I.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 13:16:46 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Harry
Message:
Hi Harry,

Just to let you know that I understand where you're coming from and agree with you. Sometimes the people on the forum who accuse you of preaching are the ones who most want everyone to agree with their opinions. You weren't preaching anyway. To me you were just expressing your valid perspective. There seems to be a politically correct party line on the forum which if you differ from you get attacked for.I've enjoyed your different and refreshing viewpoint . Cheers Hal.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 13:32:57 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Hal
Message:
Well thanks Hal. This towing the party line is never going to catch on.
Pleasant dreams
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 07:30:27 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Spiritual means denying human emotions
Message:
Now there is a real sweeping generalisation.I see being human and being spiritual as one and the same. It's the inclusive path, where everything has validity. Don't judge spirituality by concepts of what you alone have experienced. I see that spirituality is a quality of awareness and consciousness, not a belief in anything in particular.

For example just because Jim doesn't see himself as spiritual doesn't mean that he doesn't have true spiritual quality. His honesty is a spiritual quality. Michael from Oregon's appreciation of his life and walking in the great outdoors is spiritual. It just doesn't need to be labelled as that.

And who says that human emotion isn't spiritual? I think the problem lies in the concepts that the word spiritual conjures up.

Hal

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 16:47:11 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Sorry, Hal, but that's bullshit
Message:
Hal,

Words have meaning and 'spiritual' is just another word. What you're doing is trying to splat the meaning and make a paste you can smear on everything. Why? Why do that? It's confusing for everyone and doesn't accomplish anything but give you a fast sugar high for being a bit 'poetic' with the language. Not helpful at all. (Still, this is the same game we all learned in the sixties / seventies: word-fucking).

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 23:58:59 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry, Jim.
Message:
But talking about this stuff aint all black & white. I'm not a logical robot. I do have complex emotions ,thoughts,feelings. We are not cloned, each of us have unique patternings of personality.

Jim , it may help yourself and others if you allowed a small percentage of humility into play.

You're an honest guy, you have some good qualities, but you're also the biggest ego tripper I've encountered for.... well...ever??!!

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 00:54:38 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: And why do you say that, Hal?
Message:
Hal, why do you say I'm the 'biggest ego tripper'? What are you talking about? And what's not black and white?
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 08:48:46 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And why do you say that, Hal?
Message:
I say that Jim because it was what I felt like saying.Sometimes I throw some words out quickly and that's what came.

I like your brashness Jim. It's certainly better than the programmed stuff many premies come up with.

I guess what I find a bit difficult to take is your dismissal of the feminine side of the brain, the intuitive , feeling side. I
don't see why 'feeling' should be such a dirty word.

I must take a break from posting Jim. I am getting somewhat obsessive. I don't intend to go back to M or go to videos or any of that stuff. I do want to evolve as a human being though and find more awareness and consciousness. Yes, I'm still into all that spiritual crap, sorry mate.

I wish you contentment and fulfillment . sincerely Hal.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:24:50 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Harry hates hate
Message:
Jim, where does it say that hate is just part of our make-up and there's nothing you can do about it? Who told you that? Is there some book of rules on survival and living that I'm not aware of? You guys carry on like it would be the end of the world if people stopped hating. David sees it as some dastardly plot of us super souls to enslave our less evolved brothers.....sheesh. Maybe when we take over the world, I'll get him to wash my car and mow my lawns, and look after my harem. I'd have to castrate him of course. Trouble is, he would probably hate my guts.
I wonder were it comes from? Kids don't hate. Does that mean it's learnt behaviour? If it's learnt, can it be unlearnt?
What would a world without hate be like?
I reckon that in many cases hate is a cop-out. Take David's chid molester. It's easy to hate him and say this should be done to him and that should be done to him. Kill the bastard. But where did he come from. Chances are that he was in turn molested. You must see stuff like this all the time. What is it about our society that produces people like this? Wouldn't a better response than hatred, be to work together to create a society where child molesters just aren't produced, and to see the molester as a victim too? A fair healthy society. Hate may just part of the moral and spiritual vacuum we live in today.
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:31:20 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: What the fuck are you talking about?
Message:
God, I'm so tired of some of the fools that come here. Fools like you, Harry. Where in the world did you ever get the idea that kids don't hate? Fact is, Harry, I see a lot of heavy shit. And I've yet to see an ugly, heinous crime that did not trigger legitimate hatred in the minds fo the victim or victim's family.

You're dreaming. Wake up or, at the very least, quit drooling.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:21:06 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hear any good jokes
Message:
Yeah, well fool is a relative term hey, and what part didn't you understand? I'm talking of children ya berk. Children don't hate. As they grow they are taught to hate. Trouble is that you mob are in the majority, otherwise stuff like this wouldn't be considered normal. But a lot of people live by different rules, live happy productive lives and do try to make a difference.
I know you consider your hatred to be fuel for your anti M compaign, but what if noboby really cares Jim, except for a few of your mates here on the forum? Just say the people who you direct your hate at just yawn when they hear your name? What a waste, but it's your life.
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 04:28:36 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: Why are you here anyway, Harry?
Message:
Harry,

Am I right that you're not a premie, never was? You've got some friends who are or were, something like that? Why are you here? What's any of this to you?

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 07:26:56 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Why are you here anyway, Harry?
Message:
Why am I here? Good question. You see, in my last life I was Maharaji's lovechild, so you can see why I'd want to hang around and see what unfolds. But I've found that the Internet sucks, and as soon as my current contract with my ISP expires, I'm outa here. I'm buying a VW Beachbuggy, fitting some racks for my bikes, and goin' fishin' for a couple of years.
Despite the suffering, the uncertainty, and all the rest, life is a very special, magical gift, but you already know that hey, and I won't be wasting too much more time on the net. It's been fun, but it's just about time to get the fuck outa here.
C ya in the soup.
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 21:02:20 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: You don't owe an explanation
Message:
But hey I'll miss my muse for my first chain writing exercise
outside the classroom! If you are serious then I wanted to say goodbye and thank you for being so supportive.
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 23:03:01 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Hey chicky babe.
Message:
Hey Seleniepie, I need a break. The net just seems to gobble up time. I've still got about a month to go, so I'll see ya around.
C Ya
Ps, I enjoyed being your muse. Well, mostly:)
Pps, how come there's not many women around here anymore?
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 12:49:59 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Spiritual means feeling a cut above the rest
Message:
Hal wrote:

'Don't judge spirituality by concepts of what you alone have experienced'

That's all I can do. I can't judge anything beyond what I've experienced myself. Now I am not a spiritual person. I have no spiritual qualities. Does that make me any less of a human being?

Most people are like me. Most people are not and never profess to be anything spiritual. So why this minority of people who claim to be spiritual beings? People who think they're different to the rest of humanity. Well, they want to think of themselves as superior to everybody else.

Harry thinks he has no hate in him so he thinks that people who have hatred are on an inferior level to him. It's all snobbery, as far as I'm concerned and telling people not to hate is one of the most condescending and superior attitudes a person can take.

It smacks of snobbery; of looking down ones nose at those low grade humans who actually experience a base thing call hatred. And it stinks.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 13:15:17 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Spirituality means blah blah blah
Message:
>>>>>>>>>>Harry thinks he has no hate in him so he thinks that people who have hatred are on an inferior level to him. It's all snobbery, as far as I'm concerned and telling people not to hate is one of the most condescending and superior attitudes a person can take.<<<<<<<<<,

Dave, you have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about, which I find strange as it's a simple concept, and I am pretty much saying the complete opposite as to what you think I'm saying, or would like to believe I'm saying.

>>>>>>>>Most people are like me. Most people are not and never profess to be anything spiritual. So why this minority of people who claim to be spiritual beings? People who think they're different to the rest of humanity. Well, they want to think of themselves as superior to everybody else.<<<<<<<<<<

This is part of a post you posted on Premies and Friends a few days ago.
>Interesting that the spiritualist churches of which I am more in sympathy with, ascribe to the notion that being here in this world is the best place for a soul to progress. Rather than being a place to escape from, it is a place to really get to grips with the fundamentals of experience.

Meaning that while you can make progress in the spirit world, more progress is made by coming into this world. The spiritualists also believe that we come here out of choice and not out of karma. We don't have to come here but do because it's the best place to learn and grow.

OK, so I don't expect everyone to agree with these views but it does show an entirely different picture to what the Hindus paint and it makes far more sense to me.

I think there will always be suffering in the physical world but what we can do to try to eliminate it and what we can do to help those who are suffering (including ourselves)can only serve to improve the situation. If we can help in some way, it is better for all concerned<

Sounds pretty 'spiritual' to me. Are there two Dave's out there?

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 13:10:15 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Spiritual means feeling a cut above the rest
Message:
Dave,

I understand your perspective there and I agree. What I'm saying is that false spiritual concepts create these divisions. There is no difference in someone who professes to be spiritual or one who doesn't.

Many self professed spiritual people have less to offer than many ordinary goodhearted people who've never even thought about God etc.

I am walking away from so called spiritual pathways because of this ego division. People are people whatever they believe and all are equal.

ps You were one of the people who helped me leave M. You said that you experienced love for your family as being equal to all that spiritual stuff.Thanks. Best wishes for a good life to you Dave. Hal

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 13:24:27 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Hal
Subject: Love is when you don't have any teeth
Message:
Yes Hal; I've got more love from my daughters than I ever got from a distant guru. They still love me when I forget to buy presents or when I arrive late. They still loved me when I shaved my head and when I didn't have any teeth.

By the way, there's a site specific search engine on my site now. Click here to go there and be served by the blue genie.

The search engine is specific to my own site. However I intend to get a better one eventually which will search ex-premie.org, House of Drek and Jean-Michel's site too.

Thanks for your kind words and I'm glad I helped.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:01:18 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I love you Jim
Message:
Jim,
it's a funny thing about common sense. Common sense tells me the world is flat, otherwise why am I always looking up, but I have to admit that common sense has limitations.

Here's one that about sums it up for me Jim.

'The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of
attitude on life. Attitude to me is more important
than facts. It is more important than the past, than
education, than money, than circumstances, than
failures, than success, than what other people think
or say or do. It is more important than appearance,
gift, or skill. It will make or break a company...
a church... a home.
The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day
regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day.
We cannot change our past... The only thing we
can do is play on the string we have, and that is
our attitude.
I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me
and 90% how I react to it. And so it is with you...
we are in charge of our attitudes.'
--Charles Swindoll

Cool hey. Well, when it comes right down to it, whether to hate is a choice, but don't make the mistake of believing that just because you hate, then everybody else must hate too.
Harry

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 22:03:22 (GMT)
From: Eva Peron
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: M only cries for his poor self and Argentina (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:35:03 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: How silly
Message:
As idle speculators you don’t need me or anyone else to answer your questions for you…you’ll answer them yourselves. Hatred is the response you would hope to elicit based upon how you would probably respond in his shoes but of course it’s all just idle speculation, and as such another complete waste of time.

Hey, shouldn’t you be getting back to work?

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:14:13 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: Aha! The perfect premie answer!
Message:
I love it when you guys do that. No, of course you're right, Mir. None of us have any idea how Maharaji really felt when his brother called him a spoiled, little poseur and tried to take all the land, the loot, the church, the whole damned thing. How irresponsible to think that Maharaji felt a little hatred then. This must be what you guys call CLARITY, huh?
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:36:25 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thus spake the devil
Message:
That you would have the temerity to assume you know what he or anyone else you weren’t within 10,000 miles of thought, felt, or experienced is truly astonishing. You really do think you’re smarter than everyone else.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:57:19 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: Hey, that's a big word!
Message:
'Temerity'? Wow, Mirror, that's a good one. A nice, big thoughtful word to go with your silly thoughts. Mir, I think you're lying. I think that if we hooked you up to a polygraph and asked you if you thought Maharaji hated his brother in the situation I described, or me, for that matter, when he learned I posted Marolyn's letter, or any of us who've called him a fat, greasy, alcoholic, philanderer -- right here for all the wrold to see -- you would most certainly think that yes, those were moments of hate for the little fraudster.

But 'hate' itself seems to be a strange word for you. Well, mir, I did you a favour. I looked it up:

Oxford calls hatred 'intense dislike or ill will'.

Big woopie do, huh?

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 02:05:57 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Hey, that's a big word!
Message:
Who gives a f--k what I think about his reaction to all the s--t that's gone down Jim? It just doesn't matter pal. Irrelevant. Give it up. On to the $200 question!!
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:57:22 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: An example of Maharaji's hate
Message:
In the latter days of the ashram, I heard a conference call in which there was an interaction between Maharaji and a premie. The interaction went like this:

The premie asked M 'What about all this instructor bullshit and ashram bullshit?'

M was taken aback and sounded very flustered. He said something like 'Ah.. ah..' Then he just lost it. He yelled at this guy, saying in a very angry voice 'How dare you curse in front of me and my children! Go on, get out of here, and don't come back!'

After the call was over, the edict came down for all recordings of it to be erased. I was shocked.

What Maharaji was displaying was not just hate, as in intense dislike, but also a condemnatory and unforgiving nature.

He never did answer the premie's question.

A few months later, he closed down the ashrams.


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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 17:11:20 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: G
Subject: If you think just because he got angry he hates...
Message:
You really are stretching the definition of the term. Your example tells me one thing and one thing alone: he didn't like the guys attitude and made a point of letting him know it. I have people working for me whom if I don't like their attitude I also let them know it. I may even get real angry if I felt strongly enough that it was impeding meeting key objectives. But I hate NONE of my staff.

This is another very clear example of how desperate you guys are to see things in such an absolutely negative light. You read into Maharaji's actions all manner of despotic and twisted meaning. You are no better than any propeganda machine who's paranoid and stilted view of reality speaks louder than reason. And you know, you do yourself a disservice. If this were a one-of I may be open to considering your opinions but this kind of warped interpretation is so rampant you guys have zero credibility...but to other tunnel visionaries like yourselves.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:10:22 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: But that WAS the question, Mir -- remember?
Message:
You challenged my assumption that m hates. So I'm saying that you yourslef know he does. That IS what we were talking about. Read the thread.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 17:14:32 (GMT)
From: mirr
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe, but neither us know so give it up
Message:
BTW the thread asked if you saw yourself as an appropriate candidate for the devil based upon my explanation. You still haven't answered.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 21:39:39 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mirr
Subject: That's the stupidest question yet
Message:
Thing is, I don't accept your definition of 'the devil'. So the question's meaningless to me.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 21:50:53 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Sorry you disapprove
Message:
I thought the description fit you to a tee.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 21:54:42 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: Two can play that game, mir
Message:
Okay, you're absolutely right. By your definition, I'm the devil.

My turn. I define a cult member as someone who worships an authoritarian figure and is unable to question or criticize that figure openly or fairly.

I say that fits YOU to a tee. What do you think?

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 23:29:02 (GMT)
From: mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Two can play that game, mir
Message:
Maybe to some premie stereotype you’re trying to push but sorry it doesn’t fit me. Let’s look at the dictionary.

Cult:

1. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

Maybe. Knowledge is esoteric and could be viewed as an artistic pursuit in some ways.

2. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

Certainly not a fad today but it was for some at one time…as demonstrated by the many who left once the zeitgeist was over. Perhaps I could be viewed as obsessive in my devotion to Maharaji but I think there’s lots of room for improvement there. Now you on the other hand are definitely obsessed with your anti-cult thing. But then, I would suppose the devil to be an obsessed individual.

3. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

Of course you would expect me to say it’s not a religion. I’m definitely not extremist. Knowledge works so it is definitely not false. Don’t live in an unconventional manner or under the guidance of anyone but my wife. Do you think she qualifies as a cult leader?

4. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

No community ritual or worship. Strictly watching videos together. I do in the privacy of my own solitude worship my God but so do lot’s of people.

5. [Now your definition] I define a cult member as someone who…is unable to question or criticize that [authoritarian figure] figure openly or fairly.

I question somewhat openly in conversation with my friends what he says and does but in a respectful way…as you would expect from someone who respects him. Unanswered questions don’t insert a burr up my behind like you have, so generally I don’t criticise him. Remember Knowledge works brilliantly for me so he’s answered 99% of my questions already. And again I respect him too much. It’s like my boss. I question my boss but I don’t publicly criticise her out of respect for her, which I hope is mutual.

Nope Jim. Overall I’d say you missed the mark.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 00:20:07 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: mirror
Subject: Mirror, a last word if I may?
Message:
Hi Mirror,

I'm going off the air and get on with living. I've also not been going inside since the forum hooked me and I enjoy what I find in there more than this.

Just wanted to say that you are giving as good as you get, maybe even better.
Enjoy this life , bye for now.Hal

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:00:41 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Mirror, a last word if I may?
Message:
Dear Hal,

I feel the same way. I really want to go inside but I think I've become so OBSESSIVE COMPULSIVE since I've been on this bloody forum (over one year) that it's become really difficult. Please contact me. I'm beginning to think that a lot of people here especially Jean-Michel, Jim and Dave are Obsessive Compulsives. There attention is definately STUCK on the lord! I know this isn't going to go down well but at least I'm admiting where I'm at.

I feel like one of the many people hooked on BLT's and is horrible. I think it's affecting my family/ marriage and I'm very worried. I went to watch a video last week and felt better for a while but still have been unable to practice.

Please keep in touch,

Love,

Jackie

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 04:37:04 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jackie
Subject: That's hilarious, Jackie
Message:
I feel like one of the many people hooked on BLT's and is horrible. I think it's affecting my family/ marriage and I'm very worried. I went to watch a video last week and felt better for a while but still have been unable to practice.

I used to feel that way about simple grilled cheese sandwiches but I was so young then.

Anyway, good analysis, Jackie. Better watch a video.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 17:02:43 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Uh oh, Jim
Message:
Well I was thinking Haldor and Jackie were premie ringers, as they have certainly proven themselves to be. I was especially wary of Haldor's rquick conversion but didn't want to 'jump-the-gun.' I think a lot of us were suspious and it was kinda nice to see them reveal themselves so clearly without any ahem, speculative prompting from me.

I wonder if they've wormed their way over to the Wading Pool? I imagine they had some fun over there. Perhaps they are working in tandem. Cute and kinda endearing to see the old satsang all dressed up for Cult 2000. go Goober.com

Their message is pretty unambiguous now: This forum is a bad place, it gives people mental illnesses (or exacerbates existing conditions) and it is so much better to stare at your navel than come here and really examine the belief system you've purchased.

Well that's my dose of addiction for today. I've got a few sites on the Akasha to check out, so I'll be signing off for a little 'inner websurfing.' See ya in the matrix, matey.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:24:49 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Uh oh, gerry...you're right on this one.
Message:
Well I was thinking Haldor and Jackie were premie ringers, as they have certainly proven themselves to be...

Yup. Kinda see it that way as well, Ger.

They're mimics. Cyber mimics...mimicking and even creating models of ex-premies who still place a high value on 'going within.' If 'going within' still remains such a priority even when one has left the cult, then it certainly raises the question for premies and perhaps some very recent exes as well...'why bother leaving?' Or, in the case of the latter (very recent exes), 'Did I make the right decision in leaving?'
You also wrote:

Their message is pretty unambiguous now: This forum is a bad place, it gives people mental illnesses (or exacerbates existing conditions) and it is so much better to stare at your navel than come here and really examine the belief system you've purchased.

You're so right. That IS their messsage. And personally I find it galling that these guys would even come here and fuck with the recovery of former cult members, by polluting the environment in which we get to share our experiences and perspectives on m and the cult, as ex-premies.
It's as if Jackie and Hal are looking for a nurturing environment so that they can leave the cult, but at the same time, maintain that great priority of 'going in side.' But at the end of the day, 'going inside' is just another cult buzzword, and for the life of me, I can't see why exes should be expected to conduct ourselves, so that these guys can better play their con.

But hey, let's look at the bright side, at least we're getting to see what the goober's world is all about. The fakery, mimicry and even deception that goes on in the cult, finds its way on these pages and we get glimpses of it here.
Actually never mind 'glimpses', its more like a ring side seat.
Of course, there are times that we actually go into the rink with these guys, and then ... well,I don't have to tell ya.

Yup, time to get on with my day too.

Have a good one, Gerry.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 23:29:05 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Joey you are the biggest tosser ever
Message:
Joey ,
one last message ,creep.

You are a small person.Small minded , small understanding.

I bet M was so glad to get rid of you.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 23:44:43 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Have a nice life Hal...I luv ya too! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 19:09:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: You guys are nuts
Message:
Ringers? Give me a break! Try 'confused'. That's all it is.
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 21:05:28 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: thank you Jim!
Message:
What is going on around here? It seems like no one new can come on here anymore without a retinal screen and a note from some deptrammer.
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 21:07:04 (GMT)
From: I can't spell
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: uh I meant deprogrammer - nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 00:36:21 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Mirror, a last word if I may?
Message:
Thanks Hal. All the best!
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:43:35 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: since MIR won't answer you I will
Message:
When I was a premie I would have thought that the Speaker had an attitude of pity toward premies who spoke out against him. Sort of a Christlike sadness that Judas had betrayed him.

Of course now I think he hates us. But I do not think he is the least bit Christlike anymore either.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 19:04:27 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: He's feeding us the lines
Message:

'The Speaker'

Ha ha ha ha ha ha - The Speaker is feeding us the lines, isn't he. What other cult words and wonders will he come up with next?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:34:51 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: More stuff and nonsense from mir
Message:
One would 'hate' a child murderer, especially if they murdered your own child. Jealousy is a green eyed monster which we all have and there's no denying it. If you don't have the capacity for jealousy, hatred, and anger then you're not alive mate.

And if you think you're above such things then you're seriously deluding yourself. Most people keep these emotions within constructive control, of course.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 22:33:44 (GMT)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: More stuff and nonsense from mir
Message:
Does everyone really hate a child murderer? I don't. If someone harms a child, then IMO they have lost the right to live in society and in extreme case, to live, and if anyone harmed my child, I could extinguish their light without blinking an eye. But that isn't necessarily hatred. I could and would feel compassion for the murderer or molester as I pulled the trigger, if you get my drift. I'd also feel many other emotions like, anger, disgust, pity, sorrow etc, but not hate. IMO, hate is way out there by itself. You know the old saying, that the abuser has in turn been the abused, and who knows Dave, that given that special wrong treatment as children, just what any of us would be capable of.
What possible good reason is there for hatred to exist in man? It makes no sense on any level, spiritually or logically.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 05:22:59 (GMT)
From: Wt
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: More stuff and nonsense from mir
Message:
I completly understand but... your in your mind.. you would hate.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:07:46 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: More stuff and nonsense from mir
Message:
Come on ''Mate'', nobody has said they are above it. It is YOU who have said these traits are just fine because they are natural. And I’m not implying you wage a holy war against yourself. But look at this world Dave. How much control is being exercised over these things? Not nearly enough! Matter of fact there is precious little love, kindness, and understanding because we are ALL forced to live defensively due to the pervasiveness of uncontrolled manifestations of these ''natural human emotions''.

Controlling it is not enough Dave though it behoves one to do so. If you’re not replacing it with love, kindness, and understanding you are part of the problem.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 00:17:12 (GMT)
From: Draco
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: HATE IS PASSION - HATE IS GOOD!!! nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:01:42 (GMT)
From: Rocky
Email: None
To: Draco
Subject: HATE IS PASSION - HATE IS GOOD!!! nt
Message:
Uh, Yo, Draco. Hate sucks. And so do you, you red mutha... Uh, you know what I mean. I jus don' wanna say it in front of Adrian. She don' like that kinda talk.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:39:08 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Draco
Subject: Thus spake Attilla the hungry (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:12:29 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Do you actually believe this nonsense?
Message:
You honestly think we can paint the world in the United Colours of Benneton or something?

Why are all the premies so dumb? What can we do about this? How can I help? Look, I'm willing to work together to make the world a better place. I'm working together right now. But I have absolutely no idea what to do about premie stupidity. I'm willing to paint walls and haul one or two loads to the dump. If that'll help, I'll do it. But what about premie stupidity? Is there anything I can do?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:28:54 (GMT)
From: mirro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Of course I do
Message:
Hey fella, more obfuscation and resorting to personal abuse when you're stuck. Oh well let's just leave it at that.

As to whether I believe this ''nonsense'', I think most civil-minded people who are truly making a difference (as opposed to your glib offerings) hold the principles I described to be true. So if it's stupid, it isn't premie stupidity it's the stupidity of people who actually do want to make a difference, as seen through the eyes of a complete cynic.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:31:54 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: MIR...hugely hypocritical
Message:
we're the good guys. We never covered up for any hammer wielding Mahatmas, most of us have what we have by the fruits of our own labors, not the exploitation of other humans, we are trying to get justice regarding a child abuser Rawat is trying to sweep under the carpet....

Some ex's hate him. Some pity him. Most don't give a shit. But the vast majority of ex's think in one way or another he is a con man. Why? We were brave enough to see the truth and admit we were made fools of. Hard to do when you take the step. But it frees you to live the rest of your life without living a lie.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:18:34 (GMT)
From: Mirror
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: The pot calling the kettle black
Message:
You are not ''the good guys'' if you encourage hatred. You smugly sit in judgement on everything that’s taken place even though you don’t know the whole story. No, you are not the good guys by virtue of having walked away from stuff you found objectionable. What all that does make you is self-righteous. That comes through loud and clear in your post.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:21:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: Well then, Mirror
Message:
You smugly sit in judgement on everything that’s taken place even though you don’t know the whole story.

Are we entitled to know the 'whole story'? Neither m nor any of his minions will voluntarily divulge any information at all. Many of us served m for years and years and years. Are we entitled to the 'whole story' or not?

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 02:01:52 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: So your years of service gives you the right, hmmm
Message:
That depends. Is it a need to know, to vent, to validate your theories, or to satisfy your wild speculation? Look Jim, he's not coming with his hat in his hand looking for approval from you guys. The deal was from the start you receive Knowledge on his terms.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 03:17:12 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Another PERFECT cult member answer!
Message:
First you say we can't judge m because we don't have the 'whole story'. Then I say that m's withheld all the info he can and I ask you if you think we're entitled to the 'whole story'. Then you say it depends on our attitude.

Perfect, PERFECT cult thinking!

Listen, mir, either we're entitled to it or not. The whole PURPOSE of having the 'whole story', don't forget, is to judge the situation fairly, right? So you're saying only people who might judge m in ways he'd like should be allowed to know the 'whole story'?

Only a fool or a cult member could say something like that.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 18:13:45 (GMT)
From: The Mirror
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No here's the perfect answer
Message:
So which of your questions do expect he should answer? Which questions do think you have the right to know Jim?

I’ll help you out by categorizing the questions.

Questions that are just dumb and not worth his breath to answer
- Rumours about an affair.
- Rumours that he drinks to much.
- Accounts that he inhaled.
- Details of his family squabbles.
- Details of his feelings for his wife.

Questions left to a student’s trust and experience to answer
- Rumours that his opportunism was why he became Master.
- Mishler’s self-serving claims.
- Why he closed the ashrams.
- Why he didn’t make Jean-Michel a full-time instructor
- Explanations to why he spends money more fluidly than you would
- Answers to why he hasn’t brought peace to the world yet.
- Is he or is he not God?

Questions that the appropriate government agency answers
- Accounting of his finances.

Questions of accountability to the public trust
- Did he know about allegations against Jagdeo and if so what did he do about it?

So bud I’d say the only question you have any right to get an answer to is regarding Jagdeo.

Now I know you’re stuck for answers Jim. How do you account for those “lost years” of yours. How do you confirm all the theories and explanations you’ve conjured up to give meaning to your life. No matter how “clear” you think you are about it all, you just don’t know for sure and you need validation. Until you do you’ll always feel in limbo and always blame M for that dysphoria.

I know Jim...and I sympathise with you But Maharaji is real and so is his Knowledge. Your theories don’t hold water and never could. You walked away from the truth and no matter how hard you try you will never build another one using the flimsy building blocks of logic. You can’t. Rotten vegetables Jim.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 22:08:48 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The Mirror
Subject: Too funny. Typical, pathetic, yet still hilarious
Message:
Mir, the only flimsy logic here is yours and every other cult member who stops on by. No one outside of your cult would ever agree with you. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Find me some colleague of yours or friend (if you have any). Some one outside the cult. Bring them here. Let them decide what information's Maharaji's business alone. See if they can even take you seriously, let alone agree with you.

For example, let me tell your colleague some of the stuff m said back when he suckered me into his ashram. I've got the quotes. It won't be hard. Then see if they agree that m doesn't ahve to explain anything about his own lifestyle or even why he closed the ashrams when he did. They'll think you're nuts.

But, what's so funny is that apparently m's leapfrogging over you anyway. If M's Manicurist is right at all, your cult leader's already desparately trying to mount some sort of defense to all the questions and allegations here. So maybe you should write him a little note and tell him not to bother. Better act fast, mir, because he's about to sink himself even further.

And by the way, what's this shit about Jagdeo and the 'public trust'? By your 'reasoning', m could paly that little 'lila' card just like all the rest. He could stonewall on Jagdeo like he could on Fakiranand, like he could on anything. You're jsut not thinking right, premie ji, now are you?

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 00:47:24 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Typical playing of your nonsensical tapes
Message:
No one outside of your cult would ever agree with you. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Find me some colleague of yours or friend (if you have any). Some one outside the cult. Bring them here. Let them decide what information's Maharaji's business alone.

That's pure bullshit Jim and wishful thinking on your part. I've introduced Maharaji to a number of people. Few of them follow up but his message makes sense to most of of them. It must be the crowd you're hangin' with.

As for the 70's...that was a completely different era. Get over it. He did.

He could stonewall on Jagdeo like he could on Fakiranand, like he could on anything.

So press charges. That's the only one of the questions there's a law against.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:26:58 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: Blatant evasion, Mir -- You a premie by chance?
Message:
Mir,

The more we talk the more I despise you. Nothing's straightforward or honest with a premie, is it? I wasn't talking about 'introducing' Maharaji to people. I was tlaking about you letting some of your acquaintances outside the cult see how you reason here. Let them watch you argue. They'll be disgusted.

See, in case you forget, this goes back to your decrying my 'flimsy logic'. Remember? So I made the point that anyone in the world who wasn't in your cult would, to the contrary, find your logic sorely lacking. I dared you to bring one of them here. (No, of course you won't. You can't even use your real name such is the shame of cult membership). But anyway, I stand by what I said: anyone outside your cult would see n a flash how bizarre your bullshit is.

First you say we can't really comment because we don't have the 'whole story'. Then you say we're not entitled to the 'whole story' because we're not respectful enough. And on and on. You're an idiot, Mir. And, in the off chance that you're not, it's even worse -- you're acting like one.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:33:42 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Blatant evasion, Mir -- You a premie by chance?
Message:
My experience with my co-workers Jim is if they are open-minded they do not think I'm an idiot, or are disgusted. You are NOT open-minded on this topic so what else would I expect from you but your typically prejudiced and intolerant point of view. Luckily most people I know aren't as debilitated as you are.
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:56:44 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: mir
Subject: That's a laugh -- and still beside the point
Message:
The original challenge, Mir, the one I throw at all premies when they start their weird evasive, confused illogical idiocy here, was a dare for you to turn one of your colleagues on to this site, let him or her see how you argue.

Specifically, try telling one of your colleagues your argument that we can't judge m because we don't have the 'whole story' which, however, we're not entitled to because a) he's m and doesn't have to tell anyone nothing and b) we've got the wrong attitude anyway. You show me one of your so-called 'open-minded' colleagues who wouldn't think that was a bizarre joke, that you, in fact, were a bizarre joke for saying that.

You're a loser, Mir. Face it. The only people who will ever agree with you about anything relevant here are fellow cult members. You're in your own world, bud.

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 17:21:10 (GMT)
From: mir
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What a ridiculous challenge
Message:
Let's see...this guy named Jim Heller spends much of his life's energy camped out on some obscure website on the internet flogging his hate-filled ideas against a group of people who for the most part are happy pursuing their bliss. This guy can't make sense out of a major chunk of his life so he opts to abdicate responsibility for decisions made during that time. In order to find explanations for his life he rejects ALL the ideas he embraced during those lost years, which makes him as irritating and irrational as any ''reformed'' addict. Like an alcoholic this seeming strength therefore really exposes his weakness...a propensity to not think for himself. This is exemplified by his total embrace of science. That is, he's resigned himself to only accept things that can be measured. Once again, this is not the hallmark of a creative mind.

So this guy tells me I'm in my own world. Well so be it, I'm happy to be there. Happier still that he's not in it with me.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:40:27 (GMT)
From: David Frost
Email: None
To: Mirror
Subject: The pot calling the kettle black
Message:
Mir:

Do you know the whole story? I think not, or otherwise you wouldn't be spewing here your concept of spirituality. Walking away from something/someone objectionable doesn't automatically infer self-righteousness, just some common sense. Obviously you see nothing objectionable, but that calls into question your capacity for willful ignorance rather than self-righteousness on an ex's part.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 12:47:14 (GMT)
From: Steve
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: And who are you...the angel of death?
Message:
Sir Dave said:

'But there's another fallacy which people like you have and that is, you think that hatred is
somehow 'wrong'. Why deny a basic human emotion?'

Reply:
Now isn't that just what Aleister Crowley used to say.
How interesting - keep talking Sir.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 04:06:55 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: Shouldn't have pretended to be God, Maharaji
Message:
David:

OK so you can't tell people you're God. Just how do you make a buck with this Knowledge thing? I mean, it's got to be good for something. Could we use it to pick stocks, or entertain a muse, or collaborate on a team sport to win the Superbowl, or exchange answers during a test, become drug sniffing cops, uncover terrorist plots, write the perfect constitution, figure out what 666 means, tell the devils from the angels, tell a good woman (man) from a bad woman (man)? Nah, better stick with claiming to be God. You'd think the fact that he (or any of us) can't do any of that other stuff would be some sort of clue. People aren't cynical enough.

--Scott

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 21:41:04 (GMT)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: The Constant Debate...
Message:
Gerry wrote:
What do you think we should do about this Mir or Mirror guy?

gerry responded:
Obviously, it's time to start heaping abuse on him and hurling a few epithets. Moron. No that's too weak. How bout fucking moron? No, no, ASSHOLE. Maybe even C...

Gerry replied:
Hey you promised.

gerry muttered:
Yeah, yeah, I know. But shit...this place aint too much fun anymore. Kinda boring.

Gerry remarked: Aw quit your whining and go do something constructive besides reading this damn forum...

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 13:05:20 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: The Constant Debate... But do I win a prize???
Message:
Do I win a prize for starting the longest thread this century? I think the quote of the week must go to Harry for saying he hates hate. Kind of paradoxical, that one.

Love, hate, happiness, sadness - it's all part of being alive. I think we're all prone to it. That's all for obvious platitudes, for now anyway.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 01:31:39 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Premie email - From Bad To Worthed
Message:
In case you ever wonder why Maharaji prefers that premies not speak about... well... about ANYTHING, here's some unedited email to the webmaster@ex-premie.org from 'jiji' (email address withheld). Hopefully the effects of 'Knowledge' upon jiji can somehow be reversed.

Subject: oh brother

fuck! i wonder what you think when you are by yourself and i wonder
not what you feel
resentment because he my have step on your sorry ego and now your
lifetime is a vain train filled with
other sorry egos. your vain train has no windowns and that is good
'cause you will turn within again
and there will be your sorry face wanting another chance. you wonder
around in 'cause you know
he will make you worthed again.
fuck what a waste are you .

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 05:51:45 (GMT)
From: Tami Rainbow
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Premie email - From Bad To Worthed
Message:
Wuts rong with that e-male? I thot it wus beootiful! You stoopid weener! I wood luv to get e-male from that premie, he is only trying to save yur ass form the rivr of maya! i think I luv that premie! Pleaze tell him to post to me here! Tommy lee is geting too spaced out to desurve my luv.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:16:14 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is BAD ENGLISH (and Spelling) a Req. to be a PWK?
Message:
I was thinking about this as I 'wonder around' and when I look out the 'windowns.' But it is true. We ex-premies are just passing time waiting for Maharaji to make us 'worthed' again.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 18:39:10 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: LOL LOL
Message:
JW,
One would think that but I am afraid that it is not true. I think it is a characteristic coomon to the subgroup of premies who choose to post here. Obviously too there are a few exceptions.

Look at JM's mole reports. Those PWK's spell perfectly and have a firm grasp on grammar. But they can't think. Hey, they aren't allowed to think. They have to follow their hearts.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 13:26:29 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Premie email - SO nasty!! PWK are :( people (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 05:13:13 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Premie email - From Bad To Worthed
Message:
How ironic. Need I say more?
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 05:34:13 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: A note from Bahari Ji? -nt
Message:
;rj
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:02:40 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Academy Awards (Oscars)
Message:
Okay guys, it's Academy Award time again and so I am reprinting this from last year. I thought we should have our own awards and so feel free to vote for you favorites and please make your own nominations in these and other categories:

Best Performance By Rawatt in a Leading Role:

1. The Lord of the Universe (1971-1982)
2. The Humanitarian Leader (1976)
3. Guru, Who Is Greater than God (1970-1985)
4. The Incarnation of God (1972-1980)
5. The Master (1985- )
6. Meditation Teacher (1990 - )

Best Performance by an Cult-Actor in a Supporting Role:

1. Mahatma Guru Charanand (for pretending to be a holy man and by just making things up that made M sound divine)
2. Mahatma Fakiranand (for his role as Matthew Silver Hammer in 'Pat Halley Must Die' and in 'Mr. Fakir: The Escape')
3. David Smith (in 'I Am A Sadistic Robot for God')
4. Michael Dettmers (in 'That Was Then, This Is Now -- I was The Right Hand of God, or Maybe Just Head of A Swiss Foundation')
5. Arthur Brigham (for his role as 'Mahatma Pompousassanand' in 'The Initiation.')
6. Ira Woods (in'I Not Only LOOK Like a Maniac, I Act Like One.')
7. Jagdeo and Padarthanad (tie) (in 'The Art of Sexual Assault.')

Best Performance by A Cult Actress In a Supporting Role:

1. Joan Apter (in 'My Mind is So Evil I Wish His Plane Would Blow Up')
2. Monica Lews (for her roles in in 'The Invisible Mistress' and 'Where's Marolyn')
3. Anne Johnston (in 'Cleaning The Divine Jockey Shorts' (documentary)
4. Linda Gross (in 'Lawyer for God, but I Don't Know Anything')
5. Dayalata Rawatt (in 'Songs for my (Godly) Father')

Best Costume Design:

1. Maharaji's hat that looks like a Christmas tree
2. The Mala outfit with the pearls that do not hide the titties
3. The Krishna outfit (red) complete with crown
4. The silk Krishna outfit (white) complete with crown, flute and red velvet cape
5. The Philadelphia Fat Naked Dancing outfit

Best Song:

1. Rock Me Maharaj Ji and Roll Me Tonight (with sexual overtones)
2. The Lord of the Universe
3. Who Is Guru Maharaj Ji, Who is the Artist of Creation?
4. Please, Please Please, Teach Me Devotion (and Beat Me too)
5. Dance, Dance, Dance (Rich Neel -- with a special award for putting more words on a single note than thought possible)
6. All Night Long (Dance Number by that short initiator from Michigan who now calls M a fraud)

Art Direction:

1. The Swan Motiff at Millennium, including the faucets in M's bedroom
2. That ugly green logo for Hans Jayanti on JM's site
3. Maharaji.org's website, including the swirls
4. Enjoyinglife.org website (Am I Blue?)
5. The throne at Millenium that looked like an ad for the Association of Natural Gas producers

Best Picture:

1. Some of the younger, really fat pictures, with special award to SHIP for air-brusing M's zits from his face
2. The 8x10 of Maharaji's feet on a silk pillow
3. The 'greased back' hair look of the early 70s
4. The long hair look of the late 70s
5. Satguru, Your Face Is Like The Sun picture

Lifetime Acheivement Award:

1. Bal Baghwan Ji as Sat Pal, I am god too!
2. Mata Ji, in 'My Son Is A Wicked Playboy'
3. Marolyn in 'What Did I Ever See In this Guy?'

By the way, since I was the only person in the world who hadn't already seen it, I went to see 'The Sixth Sense' Sunday night (they brought it back for some reason) and I thought it was a great film. Did anyone else think that Bruce Willis looked exactly like Al Gore in that film?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 15:33:42 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: JW, this is one of the best of the bests! ( nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 05:35:46 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: An Oscar for J.W.-------(nt)
Message:
tyk
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 01:35:34 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Academy Awards (Oscars)
Message:
JW did I miss it? What about best choreography?
best dance?
Dance Dance Dance, his blubberness...
oooooo....

Now that you mention it, I guess I'll have to
choose between Gore and Bush. So ...
If I can just think of Bruce Willis, maybe I can
forget the Clipper chip mess and all. Maybe he is
......, oh I guess I shouldn't give away the
plot, it IS a good movie.

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:10:07 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Academy Awards (Oscars)
Message:
THANKS FOR THE LAUGH. The Sixth Sense is a great film.
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:57:22 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Instructor Raja Ji
Message:
Enjoyinglife now reports that Raja Ji's visit last weekend in the UK was a great success, the 'venues were packed out.' They did not mention how large the venues were.

No more SSM. It's PPP now. Practice, participation, and propagation. Even the lowly PWK's are now encouraged to speak to new people about Knowledge. A few people got up and shared how nice it was to talk again.

Where were our Latvian spies?

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 19:32:28 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Instructor Raja Ji
Message:
Only 20% of people in Britain are on the net, as opposed to 50% in the USA. But Tony Blair wants to reduce phone charges to the internet so that more people get online. Yes, we pay through the nose for all our local internet phone calls to our ISPs. It's not free local calls here.

But as more people get online, they'll inevitably find out they can get the knowledge from one of the websites. Then what are they going to do? Join a cult of middle-aged has-beens? I mean, there won't be any beautiful, young chicks in the cult or virile young studs to attract people into joining and staying.

It's pathetic that someone actually said that it's good to be able to talk again. Just pathetic. Do they realise what an iron grip they are being held in? But perhaps they like it.

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 23:30:28 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Instructor Raja Ji
Message:
Dave:

But as more people get online, they'll inevitably find out they can get the knowledge from one of the websites. Then what are they going to do? Join a cult of middle-aged has-beens? I mean, there won't be any beautiful, young chicks in the cult or virile young studs to attract people into joining and staying.

Can't you see it? Get linked up to download Knowledge, and you download a can of Whuppass by mistake. The humiliation...

Scott 'From the USA, where unicorns run for President.' T.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 01:28:03 (GMT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Wrong, Scott
Message:
Scott 'From the USA, where unicorns run for President.' T.

Gore's a thug
McCain's a gook
Bradley's a freak of nature
Bush is a shape shifting Reptoid alien...

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 03:52:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: It's OT, but...
Message:
I thought they were all unicorns? They said so! Guess it's just the price vice must pay to virtue. Actually, I don't have much against McCain... except that you can't claim to be a unicorn when you're just a horse. The shapeshifter comment is right on, but what I'm really worried about are the people who think Schrubb is a 'compassionate conservative real reformer with results.' That's like saying Leroy Nieman is an artist. Both of the other equine contestants are below radar right now, but if Gore gores it won't be with a horn it the middle of his forehead, and anyway they're competing to claim the title of the 'real jackass.'

Truth is, I'd vote for just about anybody besides Schrubb. That weasel offends me more than Clinton. Since when is public immorality better than private immorality?

--Scott 'Who believes everything he smells.' T.

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 20:20:00 (GMT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Instructor Raja Ji
Message:
Sir Dave,

I should explain that I was paraphrasing the statement on Enjoyinglife when I mentioned that a few people with Knowledge evidently spoke at the program about their recent experiences talking to other people about Knowledge. 'being able to talk again' was my words, not theirs (although they would have every right to say that). The statement is found under 'Around the Planet' - March.

I agree that as more and more people use the Internet routinely, the ex-premie website will become more and more effective. No wonder Elan Vital is attempting another pro site. I'm sure most premies find ELK embarassingly awful.

p.s. I love the additions to your Incarnations site. Your photos and comments are great. Check out Gurumayi, aka Swami Chidvilasananda. Her cult seems to be thriving, at least much more so than Rawat's. She has pro and con websites much the same as the others. You might mention if you include her that she is known to have had a nose job. (You would think God could incarnate with any nose he/she wants). Remember Meyer Baba? - now there was a divine nose!

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:38:14 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: and heeeeeeerrre's.....Eichmann!
Message:
Here's a brief excerpt from Adolf Eichmann's 1,300-page prison memoir, made public in Israel yesterday.
***************************

About his beliefs (As of spring 1942)

I must rebuke myself for my extreme idiocy and inadequacy in having let myself be gripped by the fixed notion of serving false gods and demi-gods loyally and dutifully, and for gullibly accepting their speeches about obedience and serving the Reich.

There is probably no one left whose eyes saw the supreme horror, the infernal apocalyptic tempest as completely as I saw it.

Just as I warn my own sons against such gilt-edged preachers of obedience, with their unctious phrases about nationalism, holy war, and whatever the buzz words of the moment might be, so I warn the youth of today and tomorrow, on the basis of my own experience, against these dancing false gods.(emphasis my own)

(Hey, anyone out there know of any dancing false gods ? :::)))

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:09:52 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Why did you ask(and receive) Knowledge?
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 23:08:02 (GMT)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
I was told it would answer all of my burning questions, fulfill my longing for love, dispel all of my doubts about the goodness of the universe and my purpose and place in it; blah blah blah. From M's point of view I received Knowledge for *his* sake, so that any repudiation of *him* must be a failure of *my* obligation. This, I think, is implied in your question, and possibly why you're a prick. From my point of view: 1. M had no claim on Knowledge and misrepresented himself as it's distributor, 'receiving' from him is analogous to buying the Brooklyn Bridge from a cab driver; and 2. Knowledge doesn't amount to anything much, anyway. Why did *you* ask for and receive Knowledge? So that you could blow off two hours a day daydreaming against a wall with your eyse closed?

--Scott

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 20:15:15 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: buying the Brooklyn Bridge from a cab driver - HA!
Message:


'buying the Brooklyn Bridge from a cab driver' - HA!


'A world of its own
The streets where we played
The friends on every corner
Were the best we ever made.
The backyards and the schoolyards
And the trees that watched us grow
The days in life when dinner time was all you had to know.
Whenever I think of yesterday
I close my eyes and see
That place just over the Brooklyn Bridge
That'll always be home to me
That'll always be home to me.'




Performed by Art Garfunkel
Music by Marvin Hamlisch
Lyrics by Alan and Marilyn Bergman
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:57:00 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Why did you ask(and receive) Knowledge?

Why, to go to Haven to see the King, of course!

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:56:01 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: Knowledge
Message:
Why are you such a prick?
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 23:48:12 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave, again
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: OK, sorry Mr Djuro, here's my real answer
Message:
Perhaps you were asking a genuine question and not just trying to trip us up. Perhaps you're not a prick. Hey, perhaps I am.

But anyway, the main reason why I asked for and received knowledge was because I believed that God wanted me to. That is the straight truth. When I first decided that I would get into this trip, I remember thanking God that night for 'saving' me.

I believed that God wanted me to receive what I believed to be His knowledge and so I went along and got it. In those days you just got your name on a list and waited a couple of weeks for it.

I've no truck with the knowledge. It's meditation and tailored to suit an individual, it can have benefits for some people at some times. But that's not the issue here. It's the whole kaboodle which came with it. That's what we don't like.

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 19:31:48 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Sir Dave, again
Subject: Clear as a cucumber, Sir Dave. Thanx! (nt)
Message:
Clear as a cucumber, Sir Dave. Thanx! (nt)
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 19:37:43 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: P.S. Dave, is this you?
Message:
P.S. Dave, is this (link) you?
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 01:30:05 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: cqg
Subject: P.S. Dave, is this you?
Message:
No that's not me although I think I should apply and send Dave a prayer to become Lord Dave of the UK. What a good site.

By the way, are you djuro as well as cqg - I'm a bit confused here.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 08:55:34 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: No way is djuro me, Dave. What a thought! :~? (nt)
Message:
No way is djuro me, Dave. What a thought! :~? (nt)
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:12:08 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The King
Message:
In the Kingdom of haven, there must be a King. You?
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 15:32:25 (GMT)
From: Elvis Fan
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: The King
Message:
Hey, Djuro honey, there's just ONE King in heaven, and it aint me - it's Elvis.
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 23:18:18 (GMT)
From: The King
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: The King
Message:
Thankah verah much.
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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 19:40:36 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: The King
Subject: well! It's .... another one for the money? (nt)
Message:
well! bless ma soul ...

It's ...



.... another one for the money? (nt)

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:59:23 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: The King
Message:
Yes, we're all kings and queens. We're all gods and goddesses. People are beautiful and the ones who think they aren't are often the most beautiful. I haven't met God or at least have no memory of doing so, but I'm sure he/she is pretty splendid.
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:19:36 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The King
Message:
You say we are all gods and goddesses, then you say you've never met God.
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:25:52 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: The King
Message:
Hey Djuro!

Which 'haven' are you talking about?
The Caymans or Switzerland? ::))

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:45:26 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: The King
Message:
Heaven
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 17:59:12 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: The King
Message:
Oh...kewl! :::)))
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:11:10 (GMT)
From: Djuro
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: The King
Message:
What means kewl?
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:13:57 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Djuro
Subject: The King
Message:
It means you're a real fun guy, Djuro!

All the best to you!!

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:22:03 (GMT)
From: dj
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: The King
Message:
Maybe
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 19:03:31 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: dj
Subject: The King
Message:
Have a nice life dj.

I think you've waisted enough peoples' time here.

Congratulations.

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 19:00:08 (GMT)
From: Loafji
Email: None
To: dj
Subject: The King
Message:
I'm starting to have my doubts
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:37:31 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Loafji
Subject: use the 'subject' field for short messages with nt
Message:
use the 'subject' field for short messages with nt

like this: blah, blah, blah (nt)

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 16:59:44 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The Grapevine Online: no need to go to events!
Message:
Here's the direct link to premies' grapevine! Save $$!! No need to go to events anymore.

Don't miss any of the rumors .....

The Grapevine

Any reliable info welcome ......

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 16:01:56 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: psychology of devotion
Message:
I have only a small knowledge of psychology but my partner and I were talking about all the premies and exes we know well who had problems with their father relationship. In fact everyone of them had an absent father or a cold and distant relationship with them.

We were speculating as to whether M was a loving Father substitute for us and if this was a general situation with premies or whether it's just a common thing in society generally.

I hope I can have a close and open relationship with my kids to make it less attractive for them to get involved in some personality cult.

It would be interesting to see if followers of the female gurus had problems with their mothers. I realise that nothing absolute can be proven without scientific studies on ex cult members but is there any feedback on this theory from anyone out there?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 03:44:21 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Parlor Psychology
Message:
Dear Hal,

Sorry I cannot concur with your theory. I got on really well with my Dad and always felt distant from my mum.

Go figure!

I'm still waiting for your email address and for you to come over to recent-ex. The reason being that I REALLY want to move to Portugal. I've given it lots of thought and looked up a lot of Portugal sites on the WWW. My husband would like to retire there too. He wants me to go and check it out first. See if we can buy a house/villa for a decent price.

PLEASE contact me,

Jackie

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Date: Thurs, Mar 02, 2000 at 07:25:04 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jackie
Subject: Parlor Psychology
Message:
Dear Jackie,

Just a lame theory.I'm really thinking a lot about my history within this whole crazy trip and trying to see why I was so easily enticed into giving my power away to another human being and to an off the wall organisation.

I WILL be in contact with you soon somehow. H

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 19:12:52 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: psychology of devotion
Message:
I was not interested in Maharaji. I was only interested in receiving knowledge. I got roped into the devotion thing later on when I got convinced that Maharaji was the Lord. Once I really believed he was the Lord, there was no stopping me - I became very devoted to him because I felt I was doing the right thing.

With me, anyway, there was no father complex. I got on well with my Father after my teenage years. I loved my Father. I loved my Mother too. I think this Father/Mother complex thing is over-rated myself. Most people love their parents and forgive them for any shortcomings, if not sooner, then later.

The desire to be devoted to the right cause, is I believe what kept many people with Maharaji. We were young idealists who wanted to make a better world. Each generation is the same and each new generation is in danger of falling prey to 'incarnations of God'.

Have you read the techniques that Mataji teaches, by the way? It's accessed from my site. Bizarre or what!!! And they all believe she is God, you know.

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 21:58:02 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: psychology of devotion
Message:
Thanks S:D,

You've reminded me that I was also only interested in the big K and not remotely interested in the young Indian kid. Devotion to him must have been insidiously inserted somewhere along the line.

I did have a distant and unaffectionate relationship with my Dad.This was at its worst during the times I was fanatical. Glad to say that we now get along well.

Anyway musn't ramble. Thanks for coming in on that.
Hal

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 22:22:13 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: psychology of devotion
Message:
Hal,

I'm 5 years older than Maharaji. I think most others here are that much older, or more, as well. Wouldn't that make him an odd choice for a surrogate father? Maybe a 'divine' father, one all-wise, merciful, and compassionate, which I suppose is what we'd like our real fathers to be. But I don't know. I only know that I looked up to him as if he had all the answers. Again, it is our parents that we initially believe know all, and turn to for answers. Naturally, we're going to be disillusioned with that as we grow older. So yeah, I suppose you could say that Maharaji played the role of surrogate father, the one we turned to when it became obvious that our own fathers didn't have the answers we once thought they did.

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 20:06:08 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Wasn't it 'a little child' that would lead? (nt)
Message:
Wasn't it 'a little child' that would lead? (nt)
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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 16:49:47 (GMT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Hal
Subject: Dear Old Dad
Message:
When I read the thread title (psychology of devotion), the first thing that popped into my mind was the distant father syndrome. Most adults I know report having distant fathers; it was the way things were back then: the mother was the nurturer, the father the breadwinner.

So, yeah, for me, when I asked myself the question: Why did I get involved? I figured out that that was part of the answer. My father, though not as distant as many I've heard of, was not emotionally expressive. We shook hands, didn't hug. Ironically, he was a psychiatrist. A behaviorist, a Skinnerian, a scientist, not a Freudian. Almost all the psychiatrists of his age were Freudians. OK, I'm getting a little OT here. But worshipping a Loving Father was undoubtably part of the attraction for me.

I suppose my daughter (now 8) will end up worshipping one of those Mata Ji's, cuz I'm the emotional caregiver in my family. My wife and I have sort of reversed roles: I wash dishes, vacuum the floor, and take care of the kid (she helps, of course); she's at home laying tile now!

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Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 18:24:12 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Thanks for the feedback Gregg n. t.
Message:
g
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