Forum V: Archive
Compiled: Wed, Mar 15, 2000 at 10:57:15 (GMT)
From: Mar 01, 2000 To: Mar 13, 2000 Page: 3 Of: 5


Mu -:- How to tell if they are Enlightened Ones :-)-)-)-) -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:12:08 (GMT)
__ DOD -:- How to tell if they are Enlightened Ones :-)-)-)-) -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 20:23:23 (GMT)
__ bb -:- Enlightened MU :-)) -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:32:04 (GMT)
__ __ ex-mug -:- Enlightened MU :-)) -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 09:20:19 (GMT)

A Master Poet -:- Unholy Trinity -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 01:03:04 (GMT)
__ A Master Poet -:- Re: Unholy Trinity -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:01:31 (GMT)
__ SB -:- Unholy Trinity a ****BEST*** nt -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 02:35:52 (GMT)
__ __ Jackie -:- Hear Hear! -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 03:04:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Great! nt -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 16:50:35 (GMT)

Coach -:- Metaphysical question -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 16:48:41 (GMT)
__ G -:- In the old days - three or as many as necessary -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 20:16:12 (GMT)
__ __ JB -:- To G-no, you're da man (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 17:21:21 (GMT)
__ Mr D -:- Metaphysical question -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 18:11:52 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Duh....let me see now... -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:04:35 (GMT)
__ __ Cap'n Crunch -:- What About The Passionate Usher? :-)) (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 18:24:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sounds like a dirty movie -:- What About The Passionate Usher? :-)) (nt) -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 01:09:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cap'n Crunch -:- It's the sequel to The Night Porter :::-))) -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:15:20 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Ahoy Cap'n .....you may be right! :) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 20:03:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rattie Usher -:- 'Let me through - I'm a Doctor!' -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:06:17 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Cap'n Crunch -:- We Forgot Something Else... -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:04:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ JB -:- We Forgot Something Else... -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 17:26:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Frosty the Flake -:- We Forgot Something Else... -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 02:33:56 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- How's about calling yourself... -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:54:50 (GMT)
__ __ Coach -:- Duh....let me see now... -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:49:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, the answer's 'none' -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:06:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Or how about 'only one' (but he's got to be REAL) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:08:28 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Or maybe it depends -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:10:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Or maybe the real question is who wants to know? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:13:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- the Real Issue -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 20:54:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- On the other hand .... -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:38:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- Now That's Spooky -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 23:30:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Tiger Woods -:- Now That's Spooky -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 20:10:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Duh....let me see now... -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:56:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Rattie -:- Three P.s - That's funny! -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:12:00 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- The forum archives don't unzip properly -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 15:01:19 (GMT)
__ G -:- The forum archives don't unzip properly -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:59:20 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- The forum archives don't unzip properly - Brian -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 23:29:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ Brian -:- DOS stinks - but then so does Windows -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 10:43:33 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- DOS stinks - but then so does Windows -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 01:59:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- DOS stinks - but then so does Windows -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 13:28:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- And also Brian -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 23:51:44 (GMT)

Don't want this post lost -:- the message in a bottle thread continues -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 03:02:03 (GMT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- Areas Where I Need to Improve -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 23:26:06 (GMT)
__ Amri -:- Is this a spoof memo, It Can't Be Real. (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 18:29:33 (GMT)
__ __ Rattie -:- Is this a spoof memo, It Can't Be Real. (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:13:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ Ms. K -:- It's real, all right... -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 16:48:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Polly Want A Cracker? -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 21:30:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Kind of sad... -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 21:42:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Kind of sad... Yes, indeedy. -:- Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 01:48:54 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Ms. K -:- Messages in a Bottle - Reposts -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 16:57:36 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- can you please explain? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 09:23:06 (GMT)
__ __ Joey -:- can you please explain? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 13:21:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Surrender? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 15:16:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Surrender? -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 16:32:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ SB -:- Yes: A 'real' premie HAVE to surrender. -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 16:59:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Not collecting garbage on sundays!!!! -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 18:35:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Yes I did! nt -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 00:44:29 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Surrender? (with note of thanks to SB) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 15:35:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ A Master Poet -:- A Poetic Interpretation -:- Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 04:19:52 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Surrender? (with note of thanks to SB) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:03:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- good stuff SB! -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:10:42 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- thanks Joey nt -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 00:47:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- danceing false gods -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:34:53 (GMT)

Stonor -:- Thank you all and -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 19:42:01 (GMT)
__ Jackie -:- Did you hear the Massey Lecture on Gurus (Ideas)? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:01:01 (GMT)
__ __ bb -:- Did you hear the Massey Lecture on Gurus (Ideas)? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 05:49:30 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- Did you hear the Massey Lecture on Gurus (Ideas)? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:57:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Ideas is great, Tapestry sucks -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 22:13:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ nicole -:- Id great, Tapestwi -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 10:41:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Ideas is great, Tapestry sucks -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 01:29:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ G -:- How to get a link into a post -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:41:35 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- How to get a link into a post -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 12:10:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- How to get a link into a post -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:37:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ G -:- How to get a link into a post -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 05:11:50 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- By guru, I've got it! -:- Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 04:34:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ Jackie -:- Did you hear the Massey Lecture on Gurus (Ideas)? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 06:14:16 (GMT)
__ Runamok -:- Thank's Stonor -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 21:33:37 (GMT)
__ __ Stonor -:- re: neural surfer -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:33:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- re: neural surfer -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:13:05 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Stonor -:- re: neural surfer and Journeys -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 02:48:58 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- re: neural surfer and Journeys -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:50:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- re: neural surfer and Journeys -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 17:02:15 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Bucke, maybe so -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 18:30:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Bucke is in 'Be Here Now' -:- Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 04:16:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Crtitique of Ram Dass/Discussion of Bucke -:- Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 20:32:04 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bucke was a quaint dreamer -:- Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 15:23:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- 'Of course Bucke's ideas look foolish today.' -:- Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 16:17:46 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Because they're abundantly naive -:- Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 16:40:10 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Stonor -:- Thanks to you Jim, I'll read more Bucke! -:- Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:32:41 (GMT)

cq -:- Elan Vital hostile to premies...read all about it! -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:32:09 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Elan Vital hostile to premies...read all about it! -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 20:58:40 (GMT)
__ __ Susan -:- Maybe money was the issue -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 21:19:08 (GMT)
__ __ __ A Premie -:- Should not joke about charities -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:20:03 (GMT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- head honcho reference is a joke ! (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 03:25:39 (GMT)
__ __ __ SB -:- Does Elan Vital deserves respect? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 01:36:11 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- It was a pathetic attempt at humor. Sarcasm... -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 03:24:18 (GMT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Maybe money was the issue -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 22:54:30 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- No that was a joke -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:10:48 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- No that was a joke -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:15:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ cqg -:- What's in a name? -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 19:04:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Thank you for your explanation, Susan! (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 12:47:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ SB -:- Me too:Thank you for your explanation, Susan! (nt) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:04:01 (GMT)
__ Jackie -:- Pretty Good Band -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 20:11:38 (GMT)
__ __ Charlie -:- Pretty Good Band -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 16:46:47 (GMT)

cq -:- The bee-line to the buzz -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 16:55:43 (GMT)
__ Jim -:- You mean Jean-Michel? (nt) -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 17:42:59 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- Jean-Michel? That's the man. BTW ... -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:14:23 (GMT)
__ cq -:- ... and the buzz-off from that B -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 17:24:43 (GMT)
__ __ prembee -:- devotees=drones....nt -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:40:14 (GMT)

AOO -:- Here's an interesting link -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 16:18:19 (GMT)
__ G -:- a link re thought reform -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:26:21 (GMT)
__ __ cq -:- re thought reform - and 'totalism' =totalitarian? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:43:41 (GMT)
__ cq -:- an interesting link ... that leads to another ... -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 17:03:58 (GMT)

Sir Dave -:- New search engine now in place -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 09:49:09 (GMT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- New search engine now in place: great tool -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 21:05:54 (GMT)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- New search engine now in place: great tool -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 00:47:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Search on archives could be done -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:24:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Now I'm really confused -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:39:32 (GMT)

Jim says: People don't -:- like it when you call them stupid -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 04:34:27 (GMT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Ever considered a Dale Carnegie Course Jim? (NT) -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:56:31 (GMT)
__ __ Jim -:- You mean like the one you took? -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:11:15 (GMT)
__ Sir Dave -:- like it when you call them stupid -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 13:07:53 (GMT)

Stonor -:- If you can, listen to CBC Radio's 'From Naked Apes -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:13:21 (GMT)
__ Chris -:- If you can, listen to CBC Radio's 'From Naked Apes -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:16:16 (GMT)

Jerry -:- Is Maharaji a Zen Buddhist? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:33:32 (GMT)
__ Basho -:- GM, no attachments, I think not -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:58:15 (GMT)
__ __ bb -:- But I love concepts! -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:23:44 (GMT)
__ __ __ Basho -:- But I love concepts! -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 07:19:40 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ bbsho -:- But I love concepts! -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 13:17:39 (GMT)
__ bb -:- Is Maharaji an asshole? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:39:35 (GMT)
__ __ JB -:- Is Maharaji an asshole? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 20:59:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ BeezleBill -:- Imagine the enlightenment... -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 16:52:41 (GMT)
__ __ Jerry -:- I think so -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 13:53:49 (GMT)
__ __ __ bee bee -:- smokin' enlightenment -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:58:14 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Childish fantasies -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 20:22:26 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Childish fantasies -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:14:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Altered states -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 17:01:57 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- True states -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:23:22 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- False states -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 19:15:41 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jack -:- Real Masters -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:06:09 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Real Masters -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:35:32 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Real Masters -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 15:49:34 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Real Masters -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 16:55:37 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Real Masters -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:04:01 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Hal -:- Meeting a Zen master -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 09:51:13 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JB -:- To Jer and bb -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 15:52:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- To JB -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 21:42:43 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Real Masters -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 03:13:45 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Real Masters -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:23:25 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Real fondlers -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:08:23 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ jasmine -:- Really? fond -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 09:31:31 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Alladin -:- Really? fond -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 13:22:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Cheese -:- fondu nt -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 04:35:53 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You're right of course, Jack -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:31:16 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Zen states -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 20:36:19 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Zen states via Dalston -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 23:56:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Zen states via Dalston -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 01:57:21 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Zen states via Dalston -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 20:24:36 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Zazen -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 22:27:51 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Zazen -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 22:49:07 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ billdha -:- Jerrysattva..Hamzenmaster..JB(liss?) -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 02:31:27 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Peter Noone -:- No milk today -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 03:58:02 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Right Here, Right Now -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 20:31:24 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- left then left again -:- Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 22:42:59 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Zen states -:- Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:19:47 (GMT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Zen counties -:- Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 03:49:26 (GMT)
__ __ Selene -:- Is Maharaji an asshole? -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:57:03 (GMT)

JW -:- Multi-Ethnic Joke (OT) -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 18:16:02 (GMT)
__ Irish woman-partly -:- Multi-Ethnic Joke (OT) -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 07:06:18 (GMT)
__ coconut brassiere -:- sand in my...... -:- Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:47:17 (GMT)
__ M's Manicurist -:- Multi-Ethnic Joke (OT) -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 21:59:13 (GMT)
__ Joey -:- Great joke JW! LOL!! ...and thanks! (nt) -:- Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 18:23:22 (GMT)


Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:12:08 (GMT)
From: Mu
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: How to tell if they are Enlightened Ones :-)-)-)-)
Message:
I got this - where else - on the net! Enjoy!

======================================================
32 Characteristics of Enlightened Ones
======================================================
The abbreviation 'EO' is used for Enlightened One, and
if a pronoun is needed, the feminine is used.

It is a wonderfully inconsistent and incomplete list!
======================================================

1. There's nothing the EO *shouldn't* do - everything
he does is spontaneous and Right.
2. The EO never has sex.
3. The EO never gets angry.
4. The EO never leaves the place where Enlightenment occurred.
5. The EO had free will, but lost it.
6. The EO has no emotional responses.
7. The EO has no more mind/body consciousness.
8. The EO has a mind, but it is non-reactive.
9. The EO has no more mind.
10. The EO knows she's an EO.
11. The EO has no consciousness of being an EO.
12. The EO actually is actually not an O at all.
13. The EO knows that the ego is carried in the blood,
not the brain.
14. The EO is in constant knowledge of the Beloved.
15. The EO is in constant contact with ascended masters.
16. The EO, being Consciousness Itself, has the siddhi powers
to manifest anything she wants in this world. Only her
restraint and good taste keep her from exercising this
power in a crass and show-offish way.
17. The EO must have been born in India to a Brahman family.
18. The EO has transcended each and every one of the 172 levels
of consciousness.
19. The EO constantly sees a blue pearl at their forehead level,
during waking, dreaming, and deep sleep.
20. The EO doesn't need to work for a living.
21. EO's are always teachers.
22. EO's never need to apologize.
23. One is not an EO unless everyone agrees.
24. The EO doesn't like heavy metal, rap, or country-western
music, because these come from the lower chakras, whereas
classical music comes directly from the Self, not filtered
and distorted through the lower chakras.
25. The EO is God.
26. The EO can't be recognized except by another EO.
27. The EO can tell you what happens during deep sleep.
28. The EO doesn't spend very much time in the Internet.
29. The EO is happy all the time.
30. The EO is outside of time; other people are still in time.
31. The EO has no preferences.
32. There is a fragrance of patchouli that emanates from the EO.

-- End --

So, is this funny, or what?

HAHAHAHAH and HOHOHOHO!

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 20:23:23 (GMT)
From: DOD
Email: None
To: Mu
Subject: How to tell if they are Enlightened Ones :-)-)-)-)
Message:
Loved your list. Chuckle, chuckle!
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:32:04 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Mu
Subject: Enlightened MU :-))
Message:
Number 29 is a typo, the EO is not happy all the time,
the EO is in bliss all the time.
Definately different than happiness.
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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 09:20:19 (GMT)
From: ex-mug
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Enlightened MU :-))
Message:
Sidha Yoga and Guru Mayi per chance?
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 01:03:04 (GMT)
From: A Master Poet
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Unholy Trinity
Message:
Your crimes are great, though you're a little man.
They are against the Good; against Mankind;
and ev'ryone you've lured to your redan
with honeyed words, false promises unkind.
To business then. Your crime against the Good
is chiefly that you stir that longing love
in open-hearted souls misunderstood
and bend it to your use, from God above.
So I say, be like a decent man, just try
to put aside your trickster mind. Climb down
from your undeserved, stolen throne. Cry
Freedom! to the conned. Take off fake Krishna crown.
You know, like all the world, you're just this guy
who's made it rich by riding family lie.

My second charge, of crimes against us all,
is this:- You've taken ancient 'heritance
and claimed it as your own to hold in thrall
the open-hearted hopeful; made them dance
to your most selfish tune. Foul falderol!
The knowledge that you claim as yours alone
to give, in fact was gifted to us all
in Yogic scriptures. Yet falsely you intone
those four techniques work only by your grace!
You lie, false God, I'll spell it out for you
- were you unborn they'd work in any case!
So, two, I say, disown those lies. Speak true.
No God nor Master. Just a wicked fraud
grown fat by claiming you're the only Lord.

My third charge is that you lied for gain, for gold.
Your houses, planes, dope untold, all obtained
by false pretenses, calculation cold,
that's left Maharaji's name forever stained.
For though you were a tender child when put
upon imposter's throne, you're now quite grown,
in wealth and power too. So, third, you foot
the bill of restitution - all you own.
Prempal Rawat, my challenges are clear.
By words and deeds you must make some reply;
the time of worldly reckoning draws near.
You know the truth. Your life has been a lie.
Your silence now admits my words are true
- called 'Liar' to the world, you cannot sue!

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:01:31 (GMT)
From: A Master Poet
Email: None
To: The World
Subject: Re: Unholy Trinity
Message:
Thank you for the appreciation, folks.

My hope they is that the poems are good enough to be published in their own right and thereby attract attention to the challenge they represent. (Almost) everyone likes a fight. Magazines and newspapers certainly like a touch of controversy to stimulate the circulation. Once called a fraud and liar so baldly (and, dare I say, elegantly and stylishly) it is a story itself if a person pretends to ignore the charge.

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 02:35:52 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: A Master Poet
Subject: Unholy Trinity a ****BEST*** nt
Message:
no to maharaji
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 03:04:34 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Hear Hear!
Message:
Great poem!
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 16:50:35 (GMT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Master Poet
Subject: Great! nt
Message:
asdfg
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 16:48:41 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Metaphysical question
Message:
How many premies does it take to change a light bulb?

Coach

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 20:16:12 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: In the old days - three or as many as necessary
Message:
In the old days the answer could be three (or more)

One to do the service of screwing in the light bulb.
One to give satsang about screwing in the light bulb.
One to meditate, trying not to think about screwing in the light bulb.

You could add:

One+ to listen to the satsang about the service.

One to coordinate the service (briefcase required).
One to coordinate the coordinator.
One to coordinate the coordinator of the coordinator.
:

One to announce the opportunity of the service.
One to schedule the service.
One to arrange the service meeting.

One to admonish the premie for not screwing it in properly.
(Never mind that the light bulb is screwed in and works, premie ji wasn't remembering Holy Name when screwing it in, so 'new people' will not get a good vibe from it.)

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 17:21:21 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: G
Subject: To G-no, you're da man (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 18:11:52 (GMT)
From: Mr D
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Metaphysical question
Message:
The answer is none - because they get a business consultant to run a seminar on light bulbs and the extacation/fitting thereof and then after writing a complete set of documents to be posted to all participants, the work of the lightbulb fitting is farmed out to a local church.
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:04:35 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Duh....let me see now...
Message:
...oh I know! It takes five.

One to practice changing the lightbulb.

Another, to actually participate in the process of changing the lightbulb.

And a third premie is of course needed.... to experience the progress

Then you need a fouth premie to report the progress to the 'sevice coordinator', since it's so important for premies doing service to be 'accountable'.

And last but not least, your fifth premie.

Dontcha' just love those 'service coordinators?' :::)))

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 18:24:52 (GMT)
From: Cap'n Crunch
Email: None
To: My Motley Crew
Subject: What About The Passionate Usher? :-)) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 01:09:20 (GMT)
From: Sounds like a dirty movie
Email: None
To: Cap'n Crunch
Subject: What About The Passionate Usher? :-)) (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:15:20 (GMT)
From: Cap'n Crunch
Email: None
To: Sounds like a dirty movie
Subject: It's the sequel to The Night Porter :::-)))
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 20:03:43 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Cap'n Crunch
Subject: Ahoy Cap'n .....you may be right! :)
Message:
Yes, of course we would need to include the 'Passionate Usher' to help the others get to their seats for the 'light bulb changing event.'

Now if its an event, then you need to have a video. Something like 'Inner Light Bulb,' with Kim Oleary singing 'Thank You'. Yes that'll do....

....oh shit, I completely forgot about security...what if some poor premie gets carried away and just experiences too much love or too much passion in changing the light bulb? They'll have to be taken by security and escorted where? To the Knowledge Counselling Room, that's where!

Ya know something? This may never end!
And who knows if that darned lightbulb is EVER going to be changed?!?

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:06:17 (GMT)
From: Rattie Usher
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: 'Let me through - I'm a Doctor!'
Message:
Dear Joey,

Too much love & passion caused by srewing in a lightbulb for guru Miragi and actually SEEING guru maharaji = going to visit the many Doctors and Psychiatrists doing service in the medical centre. The last time I looked one premie was prostrate outside the door and another Doctor was giving the passionate usher a hard time saying 'I'm a Doctor you little rattie usher can't you see my doctor's bag? Then he barged his way in without me, Rattie Usher checking his I.D. (real life drama)
The Doctor was last seen JUST missing his train home so I laughed and thought what instant karma it was.

Peace & Love,

Rattie Usher

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:04:29 (GMT)
From: Cap'n Crunch
Email: None
To: Matey Joey
Subject: We Forgot Something Else...
Message:
Ahoy Matey Joey:
If you had been meditating, you would've realized that we needed a Passionate AND Reliable Usher (of course, I don't need to meditate--I am the Captain of this Yacht). When Passion and Reliability conjoin, my Yacht smoothly sails the seas, turbulence or no, as long as there's gold in them thar chests to provide ballast for my Trusty Yacht.

Oops, one just went overboard--obviously too much passion and not enough reliability.

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 17:26:28 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Cap'n Crunch
Subject: We Forgot Something Else...
Message:
Could you change your handle to a non-food item.
I'm going to get cereal right now. Really.
JB
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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 02:33:56 (GMT)
From: Frosty the Flake
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: We Forgot Something Else...
Message:
Sure thing, matey. Don't want you chubbin' out. It's bad enough we sit at the computer for hours, never mind chowing down while doing so.

FtF

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 19:54:50 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Frosty the Flake
Subject: How's about calling yourself...
Message:
'Muscle Man with rippling abs.'
Love the vision. Better than a bowl of ceral don't ya think?Or MMWRA then it will be a vision only you and I will know I'm having when you post.
JB
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:49:16 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Duh....let me see now...
Message:
Joey,

Yes, very good. And so topical. I actually couldn't think of a decent answer to my own question. I did come up with an alternate for the three 'P's'. Piss Poor Performance.

Coach

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:06:30 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Yes, the answer's 'none'
Message:
Maharaji changed that light bulb a long time ago. Don't you remember? What's wrong with you?
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:08:28 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Or how about 'only one' (but he's got to be REAL)
Message:
I seem to remember Maharjai saying that if he had just ONE real devotee he could change the world. Lightbulb? World? Is there a difference?
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:10:40 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Or maybe it depends
Message:
Maybe it depends on how you define 'lightbulb'. You know, what might be a 'light bulb' to you might not be at all what Maharaji was talking about. That's why we have to all really come together and synchronize.
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:13:35 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Or maybe the real question is who wants to know?
Message:
Maharaji knows but why should he tell you when you're just going to distort the answer any way you want to anyway? Going around 'assuming' everything, making 'asses' of everyone. Where are you coming from, anyway?
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 20:54:31 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: the Real Issue
Message:
Jim,

This is all very well. But the real issue is that I'm still sat here in the dark. Guess I'll just have to go and change it myself. Yuh just can't git the staff like yuh used to.

I recall Maharaji saying, 'that if he had just ONE real devotee he could change a lightbulb.'

See yah. Got team practice tonight.

Coach

Mind you, TEAM PRACTICE!!!????.

.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:38:07 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: On the other hand ....
Message:
Coach,

You've really got me looking within inside on this one. Who said the light bulb has to be changed in the first place? Maybe it's our concepts of the light bulb that have to change.

Did anyone from EV actually ask you to do something about the lightbulb or is this just something you've thought up on your own?

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 23:30:42 (GMT)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Now That's Spooky
Message:
Jim,

Whatever the case, I reckon your inner reflection on this matter is paying dividends. Your second post in this thread is timed at being posted BEFORE your first. How do you do that? Some kinda time travel. Now that's SPOOKY. Forget the law, you could make millions.

The lightbulb change was an independent production. I should cocoa. EV to me is as the Cross to Dracula.

Sun up soon. Time to get back in me coffin.

Coach.

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 20:10:02 (GMT)
From: Tiger Woods
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Now That's Spooky
Message:
Now That's Spooky

Premies ... change a lightbulb?

for why? a premie can see the light enough already ....

(especially when something approaching a No. 5 iron is applied to that warm, fuzzy, yet somewhat dense cranium of theirs).

On the ball?

We should be.







P.S. This post isn't really from Tiger Woods. (you guessed?)

Then who?

I'm an honest man. It's me. CQG


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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:56:03 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Duh....let me see now...
Message:
I did come up with an alternate for the three 'P's'. Piss Poor Performance.

Now that's funny!

Thanks :)

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:12:00 (GMT)
From: Rattie
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Three P.s - That's funny!
Message:
Dear Coach,

That was a real laugh and Jim, stop talking to yourself it's said to be the first sign of madness and don't tell me it's the first sign you've had.

Rattie

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 15:01:19 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The forum archives don't unzip properly
Message:
While they should unzip to 5 htm files, each zipped archive only unzips to ONE htm file with the rest missed out.
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:59:20 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: The forum archives don't unzip properly
Message:
I tried one of the archive files and it was ok, which archive file(s) did you try?
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 23:29:32 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: G
Subject: The forum archives don't unzip properly - Brian
Message:
I've downloaded two files:

20000119.zip and 20000128.zip

and neither of them have unzipped into 5 htm files as they should have done. Here are the error messages which come up as they are unzipping:

Inflating: 20000119d.htm
PKUNZIP: (W18) Warning! 20000119b.htm already exists. Overwrite (y/n/a/r)?n
PKUNZIP: (W18) Warning! 20000119c.htm already exists. Overwrite (y/n/a/r)?n
PKUNZIP: (W18) Warning! 20000119a.htm already exists. Overwrite (y/n/a/r)?n
PKUNZIP: (W18) Warning! 20000119e.htm already exists. Overwrite (y/n/a/r)?n

In other words, when they are unzipped, pkunzip thinks the files already exist and so they are not extracted. If I try to overwrite them, they STILL don't extract and only ONE page of FIVE is ever unzipped.

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 10:43:33 (GMT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Sir Dave
Subject: DOS stinks - but then so does Windows
Message:
Inflating: 20000119d.htm
PKUNZIP: (W18) Warning! 20000119b.htm already exists. Overwrite (y/n/a/r)?n

Use WinZip. There's a link to it on the archives page. I'll remove the link to Pkzip along with the recommendation to use it.

You could alternately try selecting 'r' at the prompt, if it stands for 'rename'. It might only stand for 'retry' - I forget which it is.

That you're seeing these messages means that you're trying to unzip from a DOS box. DOS doesn't allow 9-letter filenames. Instead it renames '20000119d.htm' to: '200001~1.HTM'

Pkzip then askes the system whether '20000119b.htm' exists. DOS converts the name to '200001~1.HTM', and reports back 'yes, it exists already'. Pkzip then displays the real filename and asks if you want to overwrite it. If you say 'yes', it asks DOS to delete the old file ('200001~1.HTM'), and then it asks DOS to create the new file ('200001~1.HTM'). If you select 'no', it skips the file.

Thank Bill Gates for his incredible foresight.

As for spiders skipping the cgi script to read zipped archives online, that's pretty much standard with spiders.

The archives were only meant to be available to download from the site in zipped format. I added the ability to read them online via the script, but they are not real 'pages' on the site so spiders ignore the links.

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 01:59:26 (GMT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: DOS stinks - but then so does Windows
Message:
y=replace r=rename A=all
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 13:28:07 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: DOS stinks - but then so does Windows
Message:
Thanks for that Brian. You've cleared up quite a few confusions there. I am actually continually coming up against incompatablities between my trusted old software and Windoze 98. The short DOS names with the old programs is something I'd not considered in this case.
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 23:51:44 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: And also Brian
Message:
I set up a search engine to index the whole of ex-premie.org starting from the index and it spidered the whole site except the cgi files which are the archives. I presume it's impossible to get cgi files in a search engine's index?
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 03:02:03 (GMT)
From: Don't want this post lost
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: the message in a bottle thread continues
Message:
I found this in a thread and almost missed it!


Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 13:04:22
From: Unknowing
Email: None
To: JW and all
Subject: How much PASSION does an usher really need?
Message:
This is the premie response to m's yacht speech given to the 'motley crew' (sorry guys)
So that we can respond to Him it is necesary to undertake a SEVERE and SINCERE clean-up. We have been asked to do this with the UTMOST SERIOUSNESS.

I would like you to make a self-assessment regarding your own participation and roll in our team and ask yourself these questions.

1/Do I have the PASSION to continue in this team?

2/ Am I willing to address the AREAS in which I NEDD TO IMPROVE in order to become a more RESPONSIBLE AND EFFECTIVE USHER?

3/ Am I prepared to act within the team guidelines, meeting ITS
STANDARDS and STATED GOALS with a measure of ACCOUNTABILITY to assure that this happens.

Duh! How much passion does it REALLY take to be an usher. (Bongos or what!) Ahh! start swabbing those deck me'hearties!


Susan

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 23:26:06 (GMT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Don't want this post lost
Subject: Areas Where I Need to Improve
Message:
Assuming I have the 'passion' to continue on the ushering team (not a stringent requirement, I am sure. I mean, if you got TOO pasionate about ushering, you would look really, really weird), well, I think I can so that, so....

Now Maharaji asks if I am willing to address the areas I need to improve to become a RESPONSIBLE AND EFFECTIVE USHER. Wow. I'm not sure I can handle this intense and profound introspection. It's just so confronting. What gets in the way of being a good usher? Staying awake is one important component that I need to improve. So I will work on that, but it is just so hard, although by his grace I know it can be done. Also, regular showers will help with may BO problem. Is that the kind of thing the Lord is talking about?

And then, of course I have to act within the team guidelines and I have to meet the team's standards with a measure of accountability to make sure 'it' happens. Does 'it' refer to bringing peace to the entire world? Does it mean total dedication and surrender through the practice of ushering standards? Oh, Maharaji, I know it is all my fault that I can't understand your perfectly clear instructions. Without you, I am nothing more than the bacteria that lives off dog shit.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 18:29:33 (GMT)
From: Amri
Email: None
To: Don't want this post lost
Subject: Is this a spoof memo, It Can't Be Real. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 21:13:30 (GMT)
From: Rattie
Email: None
To: Amri
Subject: Is this a spoof memo, It Can't Be Real. (nt)
Message:
It's as real as you or me - take my word for it.

Rattie

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 16:48:48 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Rattie
Subject: It's real, all right...
Message:
The first and last paragraphs were added as commentary by the person posting it - otherwise the self-assessment questions are indeed real.

BTW, the 'Message in a Bottle' post came from a legitimate source as well, and it's worth reading if you haven't read it already.

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 21:30:16 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Polly Want A Cracker?
Message:
Dear Ms. K:
I also thought this memo was a parody. I can't imagine anyone either writing this memo or responding to it. Such parrotting and display of self-abnegation is quite astounding. It exhibits a sort of insensate robotic thinking process (or lack thereof) that defies description.
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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 21:42:37 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Kind of sad...
Message:
...I thought.

Here are some people who have a fairly small service (and it's probably really small now that M hasn't been giving many public programs.) I am sure they felt that the 'Message in a Bottle' was aimed at them, and thus they are going to IMPROVE their ushering to the highest standard. I feel for them, especially since it's my opinion that M probably couldn't care less about ushering - what he was talking about in the 'Message' was most likely MONEY.

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Date: Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 01:48:54 (GMT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Ms. K
Subject: Kind of sad... Yes, indeedy.
Message:
Sounds like the disapproving Dad syndrome. No matter how much you twist and suppress yourself, you can't win approval. The hook gets sunk in deeper with each disapproval, and this is indeed a sad state of affairs for what must be a predominantly middle-aged group of people. One would hope that Daddy would be somewhat laid to rest by now. Plus, what's the jig with picking on ushers? Do the demographics show they're the poverty level premies, because certainly M wouldn't go after the rich ones...that'd be too much like shitting where you eat. (Excuse the crude analogy--too much Sopranos.)
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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 16:57:36 (GMT)
From: Ms. K
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Messages in a Bottle - Reposts
Message:
I've brought these three posts back from the archives because I think they are important.

Date: Tues, Feb 29, 2000 at 06:51:42 (GMT)
From: M's Manicurist
Email: The Yacht
To: Everyone
Subject: Message in the Bottle
Message:

'The speaker recently met with a small group of people and expressed that he was not prepared to move forward until he has a passionate and reliable vehicle to support him. He does not feel he has this at present and this is moving towards a very dire situation.'
Note that PAMS are now called 'people' and the real premies (lovers) are still getting the blame. Premies have yet again been told to clean up their act and do it with the 'utmost seriousness.'

Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 21:51:23 (GMT)
From: M's Manicurist
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: What it is here that you don't believe?
Message:

Dear Annie,
I know it tends to rain on your parade or burst your bubble but this is word for word what M said to a small group of followers.
Why don't you believe it? Did you think the perfect master would never talk about 'dire consequences?' Are you one of these theetie-weetie goodness and lite types that think everything is coming up roses? This is work on this planet and this planet is full of darkness AND light.

We really MUST pull our socks up.

M's Manicurist

Date: Wed, Mar 01, 2000 at 04:49:39 (GMT)
From: M's Manicurist
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Message in the Bottle
Message:M

Dear Annie,
It might not be what you want to hear but this is right out of the Captain's mouth. He also asked you premies to undertake a 'severe and sincere cleanup' and do it with the 'utmost seriousness' or else expect some 'dire' consequences.

So good luck, Annie I hope things work out well for you. Sorry you had to find this out from the ex-forum but it's the only place premies can sincerely communicate. I guess he can't take responsibility for not doing very well in spreading his father's message due to his extravagance and he's got to blame someone ie the premies. Have you noticed when people do wrong they tend to lash out on those they have wronged. I suppose that goes for the exes as well!

Love,

M's Manicurist

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 09:23:06 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Don't want this post lost
Subject: can you please explain?
Message:
m's yacht speech given to the 'motley crew

What's this? When did it happen? Were all the premies told about it? By whom?

self-assessment regarding your own participation and roll in our team and ask yourself these questions.

How did that 'self assessment' stuff actually happen? In goups? Did you have to write a letter to Rawat? Have you been through it yourself? What's been your feeling doing this?

I'll be glad to hear details? That reminds me of that sort of thing he used to do with the instructors ............

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 13:21:45 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: can you please explain?
Message:
Good questions J-M.

Like I said below, my favorite line from this memo is:

3/ Am I prepared to act within the team guidelines, meeting ITS
STANDARDS and STATED GOALS with a measure of ACCOUNTABILITY to assure that this happens.

And I say that you know it's a cult when little premiji doing the ushering is the one expected to be 'accountable', but hey, don't even mention the word 'accountability' around Maharaji.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 15:16:29 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Surrender?
Message:
This is what he's asking for, once again!

I guess most premies are reluctant! I've always thought that was a natural process! Why ask for this?

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 16:32:04 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Surrender?
Message:
What I'd like to know is what does any of this have to do with 'enlightenment'? I bet not a single premie even asked. Isn't that the way it goes? You start out wanting something very specific, very important, and then before you know it some joker, the 'master' no less, is asking if you've got enough passion for something as menial as being an usher. And I'll bet these fools even asked themselves if they did.
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 16:59:14 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yes: A 'real' premie HAVE to surrender.
Message:
if not he/she is not a premie.

He just doesn't have the guts to say it openly and maybe is better for him to have the premies guess it themeselves. Rawat is going out of control. hahahaha.

Did you get the 'garbage' I sent you? I'm going off line soon. I'll send you more later. Elan Vital? Who cares? Not any more.
The little busy bees...Queen bee Maharaji wants allll the honey: Well, too bad Rawat, now YOU yourself have to get creative...to get it. Is all coming down to just few 'real' premies. hahaha

Bye

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 18:35:10 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: Not collecting garbage on sundays!!!!
Message:
ahahahahah........

Have you got your icq together?

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 00:44:29 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yes I did! nt
Message:
YES I did!!
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 15:35:47 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Surrender? (with note of thanks to SB)
Message:
Why ask for this?

Ah, once again, J-M, you ask what our friend Mirror would call the '$200 question.'

As a possible answer may I suggest that m would like to make sure that the premies serving him, don't have 'principles' that are getting in the way. As in,

You want to hold onto your principles? You want to know what's going to happen to you? I'll tell you what's going to happen. Your ship's going to sink!
You want to hold onto your principles? Do you want to know what's going to happen? I'll tell you what's going to happen. You're going to die!!
(m in Montreal, May 98.)

And thank you to SB who was also at this event, for confirming the quote along with sharing her impression that when these words were spoken by m, he was speaking in an intimidating manner.
Much appreciated.

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Date: Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 04:19:52 (GMT)
From: A Master Poet
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: A Poetic Interpretation
Message:
You want to hold onto your principles? You want to know what's
going to happen to you? I'll tell you what's going to happen. Your ship's going to sink!

The person who clings to illusion (passing for principles) will be wrecked. If the captain is allowed to cling to illusion the ship is wrecked.

You want to hold onto your principles? Do you want to know what's going to happen? I'll tell you what's going to happen. You're going to die!! (m in Montreal, May 98, speaking in an intimidating manner.)

When the ship is wrecked by the captain's delusion the crew also perish.

I am afraid, and I weep. Cult watchers know what comes next. But when?

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:03:05 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Surrender? (with note of thanks to SB)
Message:
Joey,

I am collecting all garbage from the begining, including the divine family, where examples were given to inspire fear on the devotees to 'make' them practice Knowledge. I will post it here. It's going to be fun!!

bye now,

S

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:10:42 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: good stuff SB!
Message:
Yes SB! That'll be great!

Hope I'll be around to catch your posts when you make them.
In the meantime,
Thanks again,
and take care,

Joey

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 00:47:34 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: thanks Joey nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:34:53 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: danceing false gods
Message:
Thanks for the Eichmann post Joey.
I also look forward to SB's collection.
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 19:42:01 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Thank you all and
Message:
Thank you all,

I am very appreciative to you for having provided such a wealth of information and resources through this forum and your participaton here, about (what should I call him?) and his 'mission', and the way he has affected different people, including me. But I wasn't expecting to find such energetic discussions of god(s)/religions/cults/personal paths, meditation and other diverse topics and links too, which has been especially interesting to me. (No wonder people keep coming back!)

As I listened to Ideas last night, I felt that some of you might enjoy this CBC program. Through the internet, you can listen to many of these programs anytime for FREE in Realtime as well as DOWNLOAD RealAudio files to listen to offline.

http://radio.cbc.ca/programs/ideas/history.html

There is no RealAudio available for 'From Naked Ape to Superspecies' (but they do have a forum where someone posted about the hypocrisy of that - maybe it will become available, who knows?).

A couple of quotes from last night's show:

'Non-action is de-moralization.'

'Human beings differ from animals in that we have the ability not to do something, to restrain ourselves.'

This upcoming series (Monday, Mar. 27 through Friday, Mar. 31) from THE 1999 MASSEY LECTURES BY ROBERT FULFORD: THE TRIUMPH OF NARRATIVE - STORYTELLING IN THE AGE OF MASS CULTURE*+ is also available in RealAudio, and IMO particularly relevant to this forum.

'Of all the ways that people have learned to communicate with each other, the story is the most human, the most flexible, and perhaps the most dangerous. Storytelling is the only form of expression and entertainment most people enjoy equally at the age of three or seventy-three. Storytelling was as important to preliterate people as it is to those of us living in an information age. The most striking fact about the 20th century is the rise of what might be called'industrialized narrative.' Through print, movies, radio, television, and the internet we absorb more stories than ourancestors could have ever imagined. This is the century of mass storytelling. Journalist and critic Robert Fulford tells the story of how stories live and breathe at the heart of our culture.'

Tapestry is another long running show that could well be of interest to some of you. 'Tapestry talks to those versed in the theory and theology of their tradition, as well as reflective, story-telling spiritual practioners. Tapestry seeks apply rigorous enquiry to both the traditional expressions of faith and to the newer, conglomerate spiritualities. This enquiry will take us into the disciplines of religious studies, theology, philosophy and psychology. '

http://www.radio.cbc.ca/programs/Tapestry

For example: The Music of the Spheres: music inspired by the teachings of the Russian mystic Gurdjieff - a conversation and plenty of music with renowned concert pianist Laurence Rosenthal. (first broadcast November 14, 1999) Audio available online in Real Audio (real-time stream or downloadable file)

Some last quotes (via a friend):
:-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :-> :->
Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful,
committed citizens can change the world;
indeed, it's the only thing that ever does.
-- Margaret Mead

Washing one's hands of the conflict between the
powerful and the powerless means to side with the
powerful, not to be neutral.
-- Paulo Freire

Thank you all again.

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:01:01 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Did you hear the Massey Lecture on Gurus (Ideas)?
Message:
Hi Stoner,

I got the tapes - very interesting both the internal experience and the external. The conclusion I came to was that with the Guru trip you can only look at the internal. So it's devastating if you get a bad Guru. In my opinion there are a lot worse than m. Hence the experience of being with the Guru and not experiencing the bliss (through lack of practice).

Jackie

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 05:49:30 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jackie
Subject: Did you hear the Massey Lecture on Gurus (Ideas)?
Message:
through lack of practice???

If practise was a factor, then joan apter of at least one of the
mahatmas would have shown us something.
But, even the dang holy family couldnt muster up anything.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:57:34 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jackie
Subject: Did you hear the Massey Lecture on Gurus (Ideas)?
Message:
Hi Jackie,

Glad someone else has enjoyed this program - it's one of my best 'friends'.

It wasn't a Massey Lecture, but it was on Ideas, and there is no Real Audio available for it, only the tapes/transcript. I didn't catch it when it was on, but I wish I had - especially now! I'll try to listen to it or read it in the future - maybe it will be available in RealAudio sometime. Since I've been looking into it on the Web to get more details for you all, I've come across a lot of other shows I'd like to hear. Hearing one of these programs is a lot better than reading one in many ways.

(By the way (anyone), how DO you get a real link in one of these posts? I tried for a while, couldn't figure it out, and gave up.)

And what did you mean by 'Hence the experience of being with the Guru and not experiencing the bliss (through lack of practice)?' Could you explain?

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 22:13:16 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Ideas is great, Tapestry sucks
Message:
Ideas is a really good show. Lester Sinclair comes up with some really interesting, provocative topics and speakers. I've learned some really neat stuff there over the years.

Tapestry, on the other hand, is just a wash of non-critical religious mush, unintentionally funny, especially when the guests play their favorite sport: meaningless fake-intellecutal word games. But then that's all they've got, right? All their 'profound' 'It's not about this, it's really about that ...' all smoothed over with a thick, chocolate coating of what they call 'faith' which is really just a catch-all safety net under their theological trapezes. Yeck!

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 10:41:09 (GMT)
From: nicole
Email: jeff@cwi.nl
To: Jim
Subject: Id great, Tapestwi
Message:
if the lite ain't bright..move on
move on
if the site is delite
stay still stay still
is i get booted
b 4....b...4
then stay till chill// http: like never b fo'
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 01:29:15 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Ideas is great, Tapestry sucks
Message:
Yes, Jim, I'd almost agree with you except to the degree of your dismissal of Tapestry, as I'm quite sure you expect. Check out its mandate - I think it fulfills its role exceptionally well. Same senior producer is responsible for both Ideas and Tapestry . Look at its time-slot and Sunday afternoon audience. If it opens minds, provides a space for responsiveness, reflection, reframing and questioning of the inculcated absolute (small 'a'), then I'd say it's a big step in the right direction. And every once in a while they throw in something special, that can spin anyone's mind and heart in such a gentle way. Sucks? Nope. Nurtures the young 'uns and plants more seeds.

Stonor

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:41:35 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: How to get a link into a post
Message:
Stoner,

To get a link into a post type the following:

description

where url is the URL of the link. This can be copied and pasted from the Location box (in Netscape) or the Address box (in Internet Explorer).

and description is any description you like for the link

G

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 12:10:27 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G
Subject: How to get a link into a post
Message:
Thanks for your efforts G,

but my brain cells seem to be down. I can cut and paste the url no problem, but how do I make it active (underlined blue) and not just text?

I accept that I'll probably feel stupider than usual when I get the answer.

Stonor

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:37:50 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: How to get a link into a post
Message:
Stonor,

Go to top of this page, click on 'Forum Help', then scroll down till you get to 'Page Link Example'. You should be able to figure it out from that. You'll probably suffer a few false starts, but stick with it premieji, and enlightenment will be your's. It's a great rush when you finally get it. Good luck.

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 05:11:50 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: How to get a link into a post
Message:
Right before the url there needs to be the following text:

some description

Put a space after the last >

There needs to be quotes (or double quotes) surrounding the url.

some description is any description of the link you would like displayed. It is this description that shows up as the link and is underlined. There needs to be this description so it can be clicked on. The description can include blanks.

If you still have trouble, post what you tried and I'll try to figure out what is wrong.

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Date: Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 04:34:26 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: G and Jerry
Subject: By guru, I've got it!
Message:
Thank you, O Wise Ones.

See completed assignment: 'Bucke is in Be Here Now' below.

(Now I have to find a new excuse to put Crumb's Mr. Natural meets The Kid. Oh what the heck, I'll show-off!)

Mr. Natural meets 'The Kid'

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 06:14:16 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Did you hear the Massey Lecture on Gurus (Ideas)?
Message:
Dear Stonor,

Ideas and Tapestry are my two best friends also! I wonder where you live. I could sent you the two tapes called Gurus. I've often thought Jean-Michelle would like them. They are very unbiased though and people (ex-devotees mainly) talk about experiences both good, bad and 'spiritual'.

I remember someone speaking about the 'inner circle' in one group or another with a bit of contempt.

When I find the Guru tapes I will send them on to you probably via Jean-Michel.

Regards,

Jackie

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 21:33:37 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Thank's Stonor
Message:
It's always nice to relish in the cultivation of the mind after freeing ourselves from all that BS about the value of mindlessness. The diversity of material looks pretty interesting.

You might want to checkout the neural surfer site:
http://www.mtsac.edu/~dlane

which is more Raj Yoga and cult related but still includes a wider range of topics than here, including an inclusive discussion of many different cults on several different forums.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:33:02 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: re: neural surfer
Message:
Thanks for the suggestion Runamok,

I'd been there before, but went back and checked it out for about an hour. Glad I did!

Stonor

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:13:05 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: re: neural surfer
Message:
Although I had left M'rage for well over a decade before I ever surfed these ways, the link in Anon's journey about David Lane's experiments with initiation (using an almost identical initiation to Rawatt's) was enlightening. Although I had denounced M'rage when I left him years ago, and didn't consider him to be a special conduit for meditation experiences, I still wondered over the supernatural aspect of gurus in general. I wondered if there wasn't something psychic or otherwise undefinably mystical about initiation in any of several groups, including M'rage.

Reading of Lane's experiments really cleared that up for me and brought some closure.

I also enjoy the general tendency to discuss philosophical issues among exes. As devastating as M'ragey was to our initiative as thinking beings, we still are people who ponder our purpose and place in the cosmic scheme of things.

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 02:48:58 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: re: neural surfer and Journeys
Message:
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to mention how much I've been appreciating the Journeys that many of you have posted at Ex-premie.org.. And also Mr. Natural meets the Kid - what a warp! How do I insert a live link?

http://www.ex-premie.org/pages/mr_nat_1.htm

What's especially fun, is that Kirpal Singh/Darshan Singh references in Anon's David Lane excerpt made me go upstairs to get the 'gift from god'. I know this letter is from the mid-eighties, but can't date it. Here is the pertinent paragraph from a Darshan Singh initiate:

'Who knows if you'll be home when this package arrives. It's a gift from God. Master has put his Charging in this and you are to eat one every time you sit for meditation. The Master says that he takes care of not only the initiates but also thows near a dear to them; so you're in His book. Remember ever when things don't look so good and Master's grace dosen't seem present that His grace is always pouring down on us at level we have, at the moment no comprhention of. This parshad (blessed food, Sugar : >) is filled with His love for you.'

Although I felt my friend's love, I felt none of his Master's, and the package of probably 200 or so small Charged sugar balls is still sealed in its plastic bag. in the padded envelope, with the 2 page letter of Feb (Jan crossed out) 21. I should add that this man is a kind soul who shared his shelter (and books, and flute music, guru, and humanity with me during a short, but difficult time, and I send him love and appreciation for the joy he shared and sent in that package.

As to the cosmic scheme of things, have you heard of the book Cosmic Consciousness: A Study in the Evolution of the Human Mind, by Richard Maurice Bucke (first printed 1901, my copy printed 1923)? A film was made about him directed by John Harrison called Beautiful Dreamers, and that is something else again. What is special about the book is its emphasis on everyday heroes, fellow human beings who inspire and catalyze us to think, feel, and act with a higher, perhaps even sometimes Cosmic, Consciousness, and much more.

(What if God were one of us, just a stranger on a bus, . . . just trying to get home? . . .)

It's Sunday night! (said in a nasal, Codco kinda way)

Stonor

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:50:45 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: re: neural surfer and Journeys
Message:
I think that's Burke and yes I've read at least some of it. I remember that as being a book that Richard Alpert was way into. Can't say I enjoy readings of that sort much these days, but maybe in a hundred years or so.. well maybe a little sooner than that.

For now, it's a burnout to remember the rush to read every and any book about consciousness, much less to actually look at one. I do actually have a few such books on my shelf, but tend to avoid the general philosophically spiritual like Burke. I'd rather read anthropology or science when I am in the mood to ponder the human condition.

But I enjoy my guru-free meditation when I feel like it!

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 17:02:15 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: re: neural surfer and Journeys
Message:
Fascinating feedback. I don't know if we're talking about the same book - the one I'm talking about is by Bucke and I have a feeling it's quite obscure, but we are talking about the same thing. I had forgotten that Richard Alpert was/is Baba Ram Dass, but I did a search and found a section in one of his interviews where he mentions Walt Whitman as well as others, in the same way as Bucke. It's interesting to find out where some of these threads run and link into others, sort of a giant puzzle of minds.

The film I mentioned is a biographical one about Bucke's life and work, and his book is only referred to once or twice. Just in case you are interested and don't know this, Bucke worked as medical superintendent of the Asylum for the Insane, London, Canada and initiated major (positive) changes in the treatment of the patients. One was stopping the routine practice of performing hysterectomies on (hysterical) women and another was providing more social activities, like music, singing, and outdoor games.

Thanks again, and maybe I'll pull 'Be Here Now' off the shelf next! But I often feel a need to move away from the philosophical/spiritual discussion into practical application (and not forgetting meditation either).

And I know that this forum isn't for exchanging this kind of thing, but I'm a little curious about what you are reading in anthropology and science.

Stonor

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 18:30:25 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Bucke, maybe so
Message:
Maybe it was Bucke.. I guess if you find the reference in _Be Here Now_ that would let us know.

I'm not big on Ram Dass, since he set up a lot of us for the fall with his guru-perfect teacher stuff. I've always felt he could have done a lot of good by backing off, apologising or otherwise finding a way to help people whose lives he indirectly damaged. But the Ram Dass I know would never admit to any 'damage' and it took a stroke to (almost) shut him up. He is still touring a bit but can't talk normally (after some strokes which left him partially paralyzed).

I go pretty far with standard references and encyclopedias (the Britannica being my favorite- now online BTW). My reading is ADD/Internet style- I like to surf even with books. The books I have around are generally philosophy of science, history of science, history of math, some evolution. I have several Discovery channels which often have anthro-oriented shows, history and sexology. I guess watching those or A&E counts for metaphysics with their Egypt histories and similar. I also read some physics-metaphysics and physics-art material.

After that my interests are more art-oriented. I can hardly crack open any of the metaphysics books that fascinated me as a premie. I got a copy of an Ouspensky book last year and I couldn't find a thing in there that seemed interesting or factual.

BTW the Bucke thing reminds me of William James whom I've never had the time to really read. His was the mainstream of psych before Freud but supposedly has some spiritual basis. Dunno, haven't read it.


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Date: Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 04:16:30 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Bucke is in 'Be Here Now'
Message:
Bucke's 'Cosmic Consciousness' is in the 'Books to Visit with Now and Then' section. I found my copy second-hand (like most of my books). You are the first person I've talked to who has heard of Bucke, and I never expected to find his name in the back of BHN. I saw the movie, by chance, around the same time. and only put the two together a little later.

I haven't read William James either, so I can't make any comparisons, but Bucke sees cosmic consciousness as an aspect of evolution (similarly to Ouspensky's 'The Psychology of Man's Possible Evolution', also listed in the back of 'Be Here Now'), and he also (like Ouspensky in another book) discusses devolution. What I particularly like about Bucke, was that he recognized the cosmic consciousness of not only of the obvious (Gautama, Jesus, Mohammed...), but also of the less so (Dante, Blake, Whitman...), and then continues with otherwise unknown people, often giving only initials - identifying what is commonly shared, and transmitted by them, to varying degrees of course. I think that this article is somewhat related to this concept.

Dancing with the Whole

I know what you mean about Ouspensky - he can be quite off at times, but I've found that when he's on, he's great. It can depend on which part of which book I'm reading and what frame of mind I'm in as well.

I've never really gotten particularly into Ram Dass; 'Be Here Now' is the only book I have of his. When I searched the web, I found this transcript of an interview with him where he discusses that whole period in a larger context. It rambles quite a bit, but you might find it interesting:

Interview with Ram Dass

As a non-anything, I don't really feel that I'm in a position to comment, but I don't think that all guru/teachers are bad, anymore than all of any group is bad - there are fakes and manipulators in every field. But I think you have something more specific in mind and, as I've been learning, there are a lot of specifics in some cases. I've tried to accept life as my teacher and the whole good/bad dichotomy is becoming quite blurred, but some things are wrong and should be addressed.

I cut my cable a few years ago because I never had time to watch even the shows I taped. I do miss the kind of programs you mention. For art I go to a museum when there's an exhibition I want to see. Apart from that I have rather eclectic interests. You mention anthropology, and I'm sure you've come across Hall - he's sort-of a metaphysics kind of anthopologist, don't you find? I still haven't read one of his books properly, but he's moving to the top of my reading list.

As far as web-surfing goes, nothing beats it for being able to check-out a topic quickly, look-up references, and find links to related topics that I wouldn't have known to look for - but I still prefer books!

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Date: Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 20:32:04 (GMT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Crtitique of Ram Dass/Discussion of Bucke
Message:
I think that Ram Dass caused a lot of damage (especially among premies) with his mythological presentation of the satguru as someone who was your own true self in person. I don't totally rule out spiritual or psychic experiences by any means, but Ram Dass really set us up for a fall.

You really can't trust others more than yourself and when you do set out to intimately trust another person, it's healthy only in a life partnership like a marriage or similar. That is a two-way street and it's understood that it doesn't completely develop in the first minute and that it cannot.

it's extremely dangerous to put a stranger or other person with nothing invested in your life in a situation of total power or authority over you. Doctors and other professional types are bound by law to do their best (although these situations are problemlatic) but a guru is essentially a bum off the street (OK off the Rishikesh social circuit).

All the arguments about the cultural framework of Gurus are ludicrous when somebody shows up in America trying to find followers, but Ram Dass was never around to warn us of that possibility or to apologize for not having done so.

So I really don't like the guy much.

I had a copy of Bucke around which I got rid of a few months ago. I was moderately interested in some of his discussion of old scriptures but didn't find a lot of info, just a few interesting thoughts that I read and absorbed.

I can't remember much about the essays on spiritual people but I passed up on CP Snow essays on statesmen the other day. I don't get too wowed by stuff like that, although I watch biographies on cable. TV covers me for a lot of stuff and I don't do extra reading about it.

Some people write about the 'spirituality' of Shakespeare and others known for their intellectual skills. This usually wears pretty thin with the worst versions including a detailed analysis of who the people were in their past lives.

Likewise, essays on anyone's spirituality can get pretty stuffy at times, but at least the guy picked some reasonable cases in point (i.e., people who were spiritually oriented).

Other authors of little or no use to me at this stage would be: Madame Blavatsky, Ledbetter and the like. I guess I have the disdain for most spiritual writings like a lot of exes (from having immersed myself in so much of it as a premie). Sometimes the points are too obvious. I'm relatively expert, I guess. Other times the work is flawed, as with Ram Dass.

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Date: Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 15:23:24 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Bucke was a quaint dreamer
Message:
A number of premies passed Cosmic Consciousness around in one of the communities I lived in. Back then I found his theory profound and fascinating. He posited that humanity's evolving spiritually and that sooner or later we're all going to be fully enlightened. In the meantime, certain 'great souls' are born amongst us, one here, on there, but, on average, more and greater ones all the time. Hence, of course, the greatest manifestation of cosmic consciousness to ever walk the planet was none other than his very own mentor, Walt Whitman!

Of course Bucke's ideas look foolish today.

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Date: Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 16:17:46 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: 'Of course Bucke's ideas look foolish today.'
Message:
Why is that Jim?
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Date: Wed, Mar 08, 2000 at 16:40:10 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: Because they're abundantly naive
Message:
For a doctor, Bucke was pretty unscientific. If I recall (and it's been a few decades), his theory is that our senses only evolved very recently. The color red isn't mentioned until later in the bible so we probably didn't see that end of the spectrum back in the old testament days. Then he jumps on the usual bandwagon chain of so-called 'enlightened' historical figures, adding a few odd favorites of his own (e.g., Bacon, in drag as Shakespeare). And all of this culminates in the crowning glory of human creation to date: Walt Whitman.

Come on, Stonor! What's to take seriously?

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Date: Thurs, Mar 09, 2000 at 20:32:41 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks to you Jim, I'll read more Bucke!
Message:
I too found it quaint - that was one of its appeals to me - but also very sincere. I looked through it about 10 years ago, and did not read it from cover to cover (I have a 1923 edition (his photo is signed) that I picked up for $5-it's not in good condition - I hesitate to handle it too much).

Medical science, like everything else it seems, has its good side and its bad. Around Bucke's time (his book was first published in 1901) the treatment in psychiatric institutions consisted mainly of restraining some patients, sedating most, and giving hysterectomies to 'hysterical women' on basically the request of a husband, and I'm sure there were other delightful treatments as well (I'm no expert on this). 'Science' was introducing the modern miracle of electro-shock therapy. As I wrote above, Bucke worked as medical superintendent of the Asylum for the Insane, London, Canada and initiated major (positive) changes in the treatment of the patients. One was stopping the routine practice of performing hysterectomies and another was providing more social activities, like music, singing, and outdoor games. (Did you read the thread before posting?)

I didn't spend much time on his discussion of evolution and colour - just stashed it in the back of my mind as an interesting concept. Have you found anything more up-to-date on some of the ideas he puts forward? I'd be interested to know. Around 20 years ago, I read something about an experiment with a variety of fish at different points on the evolutionary scale. They gradually introduced poison into their aquarium. The most highly evolved fish began to die first and, you guessed it, the most primitive fish just kept on going. Bucke suggests this type of concept in terms of mental illness, if I remember correctly.

Again, from a posting above, what I particularly like about Bucke, was that he recognized the 'cosmic consciousness' of not only of the obvious (Gautama, Jesus, Mohammed...), but also of the less so (Dante, Blake, Whitman...), and then continues with otherwise unknown people, often giving only initials - identifying what is commonly shared, and transmitted by them, to varying degrees of course. I've often felt the same way, and would add a few of my favourites as well : Gibran, Ibsen, Lessing, Campbell...

I like the fact that he suggests that gurus and religions are not the only path to 'enlightenment'. In fact, what I find interesting in thinking abbout this is that his personal favourite and 'mentor', Whitman, is the antithesis of m among many other gurus and religious leaders. His explanation for his choices is, IMO quite valid. Could be that at the time you read it your frame of mind was different than it is today. I find it significant now that for some reason his book came to mind while at this forum.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:32:09 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Elan Vital hostile to premies...read all about it!
Message:

DevoMuse have the following on their website (thanx Roger eDrek for the link - and where are you Rog?)



http://www.devomuse.freewire.co.uk/wnew.htm


quote
'This site will be closing down soon due to lack of appreciation and intererest from anyone (well not quite but nearly)! We tried. You didn't listen. What's new!

Thanks to all those premies that loved the music, and no thanks to EV, etc who suprised us all with their hostility.'

end-quote





Elan Vital 'hostile' to premies?


I wonder why.


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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 20:58:40 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Elan Vital hostile to premies...read all about it!
Message:
From the looks of it, these guys at Devomuse were trying to give premies a more open shot at getting their music heard.
It seems that m and his head honchos at EV don't want just any and every bit of premie music out there available to the public. THAT could prove a little too embarrassing.
IMO, the 'hostility' was their way of signalling the message to other premies NOT to cooperate, and to exercise 'control' over Devomuse.
IOW, run it into the ground.
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 21:19:08 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Maybe money was the issue
Message:
as perhaps all the profits were not going to EV and some were to whomever is running the site?

Also there is a reference to 'head honchos' of EV. I find it offensive to hear EV officials referred to in such a disrespectful way.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:20:03 (GMT)
From: A Premie
Email: scum@lotusfeet.com
To: Susan
Subject: Should not joke about charities
Message:
You should not make jokes about Elan Vital officials. This charitable orgonisation is working for the good of mankind and all people can do is take cheap shots at it. I mean, would you poke fun at those people who stand outside supermarkets shaking their tins for the Guide Dogs For The Blind charity?

When Maharaji gets his Nobel Prize for Peace, you will be very sorry that you poked fun at his organisation. When his poems are printed in 'Time Magazine', won't you feel more than a twinge of guilt that you poured scorn on him?

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 03:25:39 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: all
Subject: head honcho reference is a joke ! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 01:36:11 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Does Elan Vital deserves respect?
Message:
Hi Susan,

I usually I enjoy your posts but I disagree on EV. Is Elan Vital respectful? Are their tactics to get money for mahara clean? I wonder why you wrote that...

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 03:24:18 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: SB
Subject: It was a pathetic attempt at humor. Sarcasm...
Message:
which really doesn't work without voice inflection.
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 22:54:30 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Maybe money was the issue
Message:
Susan,

I suspect you're probably right about the money playing into the situation as well. That is m and/or EV didn't feel he was getting a large enough slice of the pie. It may even be the predominant issue. But that would amount to a control issue as well, that is control over the way premies spend their money on m and k related products, devotional music in this instance.

BTW, why do you find my reference to EV 'officials' (your reference) as 'head honchos' offensive? I really don't understand.
For myself the term implies a meaning or image of big, intimidating guys lording it over little guys, and thats precisely what I wanted to communicate. What's wrong with that?

Heck, I could've called them alot worse.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:10:48 (GMT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: No that was a joke
Message:
I must have misinterpeted what I read. I thought the premies themselves were using the term head honcho. I found that refreshingly honest and inconsistant with most of the EV things we see. Therefore I was guessing that could be a reason it was felt they did not have the proper understanding to sell the music.
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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 11:15:34 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: No that was a joke
Message:
Susan,

Don't you just hate it when you have to explain it again and again that IT WAS JUST A JOKE! For what it's worth, I caught on right away. I don't know what's wrong with these other ninnies. Too much darshan, maybe.

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 19:04:26 (GMT)
From: cqg
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: What's in a name?
Message:
A guy walks into a Bar in Hollywood where all of the stars
hang out. Being an ordinary man, he is astounded by
the fact that most of his favorite stars are in the one bar. He
walks up to his idol, Jerry Lewis and strikes up a
conversation.

'Gee Jerry, I really want to be like you. I want to become a
star and make lots of money and get all of the women,' says
our pathetic little man.

Jerry takes a look at the man and replies, 'Well, you seem
smart enough, and rather good looking... You could probably
make a pretty good living in Hollywood. But the most
important thing in show business is your name... What is your
name, by the way?

'Penis Van Lesbian,' replied our pathetic mascot.

'Boy! You really should change that name, you'll never get a
job here with a name like that.' With that, Jerry left the bar
chuckling to himself.

When jerry comes back to the bar a week later, he notices his
friend sitting at the bar surrounded by people. He goes up to
him and starts talking to him.

'I see you finally made it... What did you change your name
to?'

'Dick Van Dyke,' replies our no longer quite so pathetic
mascot.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 12:47:57 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Thank you for your explanation, Susan! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 17:04:01 (GMT)
From: SB
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Me too:Thank you for your explanation, Susan! (nt)
Message:
n
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 20:11:38 (GMT)
From: Jackie
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: Pretty Good Band
Message:
That's a shame. I never heard of this site before. Listened to the music - the guitar playing was rad!

Jackie

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 16:46:47 (GMT)
From: Charlie
Email: None
To: Jackie
Subject: Pretty Good Band
Message:
Would that be the 'rad' guitar playing on the much trumpeted CD titled 'Vomit Rising'?
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 16:55:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: The bee-line to the buzz
Message:
So guess who said this:

'Maharaj Ji is the Queen Mother Bee ... '

Give up?

Find the answer on Jean-Paul's website HERE (third paragraph from the end)

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 17:42:59 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: You mean Jean-Michel? (nt)
Message:
nn
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:14:23 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jean-Michel? That's the man. BTW ...
Message:


Jean-Michel? That's the man.

Thanks for pointing that out, Jim,



BTW ...

Do you think we'll hear more from Annie, who's gone awfully quiet after Susan posted this yesterday:

(Hope you don't mind me repeating your post, Susan, - after all, I think it's one of more more important points to come out of that thread)



Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 20:20:25
From:
Susan
Email:
None
To:
Annie
Subject:
Annie....
Message:

Since you are an insider and you feel Rawat does not mind being questioned would you PLEASE question him about Jagdeo. Since the two people I told 'forgot' has he forgotten hearing about it as well? At this point has he done anything to stop him? This issue goes beyond ex -vs- premie, it is really important. I know both by logic and in my heart that Rawat was told about Jagdeo in the seventies. Please ask him why he let Jagdeo continue to be a mahatma and travel the world in his name.

Susan

I am very serious. If you are serious that Rawat can deal with confrontation PROVE it by doing this!







cqg again: I wonder if Annie's doing the decent thing and actually getting a response on this out of the Maha?

Perhaps she'll need a little more time ...

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 17:24:43 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: everone
Subject: ... and the buzz-off from that B
Message:



No prizes for guessing who the following came from:

'Do you understand yourself as a premie who has realized this Knowledge or not

'Do you understand yourself as a premie who has realized this Knowledge or not?

You are a premie. Right? When you received this Knowledge, you dedicated your life to me. Right?



If you are so fake and phony as to refuse your duty, as to regret your duty, then I don't think you are even a premie'



 


(The Maha speaking in Orlando, Florida, 1975)

 


 


 


'...even a premie ...'

wonder what he was implying there?



 


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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:40:14 (GMT)
From: prembee
Email: None
To: cq
Subject: devotees=drones....nt
Message:
fdhg
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 16:18:19 (GMT)
From: AOO
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Here's an interesting link
Message:
Try this link to learn about the cult Madona has joined.
Any faniliarities here?

http://www.rickross.com/report_archives/madonna.html

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:26:21 (GMT)
From: G
Email: None
To: AOO
Subject: a link re thought reform
Message:
The following link (obtained from the above link) discusses thought reform

Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism - Chapter 22: Ideological Totalism

It discusses eight psychological themes in thought reform:

Milieu Control - most basic - the control of human communication

Mystical Manipulation - extensive personal manipulation

The Demand for Purity - experiential world is sharply divided into the pure and the impure

The Cult of Confession - an obsession with personal confession

The 'Sacred Science' - aura of sacredness around its basic dogma

Loading the Language - with thought-terminating cliché

Doctrine Over Person - subordination of human experience to the claims of doctrine

The Dispensing of Existence - a sharp line between those whose right to existence can be recognized, and those who possess no such right

Some examples I have seen in Elan Vital/Divine Light Mission follow. There are many others.

Milieu Control
. the ashram
. no 'chit-chat'
. Kissimmee
. Amaroo and other 'Knowledge Centers'
. Premies being told to not speak about their own experience, but simply point the way to 'the Master'

The Demand for Purity
. Maharaji berating premies for their 'sex trips'

The Cult of Confession
. Examining oneself in front of the speaker during the training on Maharaji's yacht
. 'I am filled with the impurities of this world'

Loading the Language
. Premies repetition of Maharaji's use of language
. 'this life', 'that love', 'that place', 'this whatever', 'that whatever'
. 'I can't really describe this experience'
. 'the mind', 'Jai Satchitanand', 'satsang, service, and meditation'
. 'practice, progress, and participation'
. 'gratitude'
. 'the Master', 'the student' aka 'the begger'
. 'Maharaji'
. 'the Knowledge'

Doctrine Over Person
. On the web page it discusses how 'past historical events are retrospectively altered ... to make them consistent with the doctrinal logic.' This has happened to a great degree in Elan Vital (formally known as Divine Light Mission)
. A premie's memories of these past events are supposed to be repressed, for example 'That was 20 years ago, get over it'
. 'Never leave room for doubts in your mind'

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:43:41 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: G
Subject: re thought reform - and 'totalism' =totalitarian?
Message:
re thought reform - and 'totalism' =totalitarian?


Thanks G,

That's a great page-link, and those headings are well worth checking out, especially the one on 'Loading the Language':


quote: 'The language of the totalist environment is characterized by the thought-terminating cliché. end-quote.


Mind you, I'm sure it's all to easy to get into the habit of using cliches regardless of whether you're pro or anti- the Maha.

'Premie mentality' - there's one for you.

Means something to a lot of us exes, but means something totally different to premies.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 17:03:58 (GMT)
From: cq
Email: None
To: AOO
Subject: an interesting link ... that leads to another ...
Message:
Good work AOO,


On the same site is the 'Warning signs' page, that goes like this:




Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.


1.Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

2.No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

3.No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

4.Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

5.There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

6.Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

7.There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

8.Followers feel they can never be 'good enough'.

9.The group/leader is always right.

10.The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing 'truth' or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.






Ten warning signs regarding people involved in/with a potentially unsafe group/leader.


1.Extreme obsessiveness regarding the group/leader resulting in the exclusion of almost every practical consideration.

2.Individual identity, the group, the leader and/or God as distinct and separate categories of existence become increasingly blurred. Instead, in the
follower's mind these identities become substantially and increasingly fused--as that person's involvement with the group/leader continues and deepens.

3.Whenever the group/leader is criticized or questioned it is characterized as 'persecution'.

4.Uncharacteristically stilted and seemingly programmed conversation and mannerisms, cloning of the group/leader in personal behavior.

5.Dependency upon the group/leader for problem solving, solutions, and definitions without meaningful reflective thought. A seeming inability to think
independently or analyze situations without group/leader involvement.

6.Hyperactivity centered on the group/leader agenda, which seems to supercede any personal goals or individual interests.

7.A dramatic loss of spontaneity and sense of humor.

8.Increasing isolation from family and old friends unless they demonstrate an interest in the group/leader.

9.Anything the group/leader does can be justified no matter how harsh or harmful.

10.Former followers are at best-considered negative or worse evil and under bad influences. They can not be trusted and personal contact is avoided.






Ten signs of a safe group/leader.

1.A safe group/leader will answer your questions without becoming judgmental and punitive.

2.A safe group/leader will disclose information such as finances and often offer an independently audited financial statement regarding budget and
expenses. Safe groups and leaders will tell you more than you want to know.

3.A safe group/leader is often democratic, sharing decision making and encouraging accountability and oversight.

4.A safe group/leader may have disgruntled former followers, but will not vilify, excommunicate and forbid others from associating with them.

5.A safe group/leader will not have a paper trail of overwhelmingly negative records, books, articles and statements about them.

6.A safe group/leader will encourage family communication, community interaction and existing friendships and not feel threatened.

7.A safe group/leader will recognize reasonable boundaries and limitations when dealing with others.

8.A safe group/leader will encourage critical thinking, individual autonomy and feelings of self-esteem.

9.A safe group/leader will admit failings and mistakes and accept constructive criticism and advice.

10.A safe group/leader will not be the only source of knowledge and learning excluding everyone else, but value dialogue and the free exchange of ideas.







Don't be naïve, develop a good BS Detector.

You can protect yourself from unsafe groups and leaders by developing a good BS detector. Check things out, know the facts and examine the evidence. A safe
group will be patient with your decision making process. If a group or leader grows angry and anxious just because you want to make an informed and careful
decision before joining; beware.



By Rick Ross, Expert Consultant and Intervention Specialist
Copyright © Rick Ross

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 09:49:09 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: New search engine now in place
Message:
Now you can do a search on all of the ex-premie sites together from one place. This includes searching ex-premie.org, Jean-Michel's site, House of Drek, Cultwatch and my own site.

You'll like this new toy! Just click here to go to my ex-premie Homepage and you'll see the search engine near the top of the page.

Search on anything you like. I tried doing a search on 'deceive' and got some interesting results.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 21:05:54 (GMT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: New search engine now in place: great tool
Message:
Does it also search in the forums' archives?

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 00:47:07 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: New search engine now in place: great tool
Message:
That's not possible since the archives are zip files and can't be crawled by the search engine spider. It has indexed all the 'Best of the Forum' on Roger's site though.
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:24:26 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean Michel
Subject: Search on archives could be done
Message:
The archives would have to be unzipped and put onto a server. I don't know how much disk space one unzipped archive would take. I'll try a test.

I know that Geocities allow 40 mb per account and the archives could be spread over several accounts. I could then set up a search engine to cover all of the unzipped archives. This could be done but would take some time.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:39:32 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Now I'm really confused
Message:
Just noticed that Forum 3 archives are not zipped but they weren't indexed by the search engine. Must be something to do with the CGI or something. Anyone know?
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 04:34:27 (GMT)
From: Jim says: People don't
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: like it when you call them stupid
Message:
Picked up this little lesson over on the Onion. Thought I'd share it with all you people who like to call other people stupid. Obviously there has to be a better way, assholes.

Boy, you try to help people out, but sometimes they can just be so sensitive. Especially over a little thing like being called stupid.

The other day, I was depositing my paycheck at the bank, and the teller asked me, 'Do you want this in checking?' Now, that's a pretty stupid question, seeing as I had closed out my savings account a month before and now only have a checking account. I couldn't believe her stupidity.

But, you know, I try to be tolerant and helpful when dealing with people who aren't all that swift. So, to give her a clue, I said, 'Yeah, put it all in checking, stupid.' No big speech, no insulting dissection of her dumb question. I just politely answered her and tacked on a little 'hint.'

Well, Little Miss Genius practically stared daggers at me! What was her problem? I mean, all I did was call her stupid. And it's not like it's even necessarily her fault she's that way. Her mother might have drank too much when she was carrying her or something. All I was doing was pointing out that there's a problem with her intelligence.

A similar thing happened at Pepe's a couple of weeks ago. I ordered the Beef Enchirito Deluxe Platter, and the waiter brought me a Chicken Enchirito. So, naturally, when he put it down in front of me, I gently said, 'I'm sorry, but I ordered the Beef Enchirito, stupid.'

The guy takes the plate back, and as he's leaving, he shoots me a nasty look. Geez, like I'm the dumbass who doesn't know a chicken from a cow! Strike two.

But even so, I try to be nice. Next time he comes to the table, I try explaining to him as nicely as possible why he's stupid. I even talk extra slow to make sure he follows me. But does he appreciate my efforts to better him? Of course not! He tells me, 'I have a lot of other tables to serve, sir,' and walks off. Yeah, that would be a real tragedy, not getting waited on by this Einstein, right?

That was his third strike. As a general rule, I drop my tip to 10 percent after the first stupid move, 5 percent after the second, and on your third, you lose the whole bundle. I guess a fourth mistake means the waiter would have to tip me, but I'll never find out, because I don't give people a chance to do a fourth stupid thing. I was out of there and off to a smart restaurant.

Frankly, I don't know why I even bother trying to help these people: Every time I do, they get all huffy and defensive.

It's like the silly brouhaha that erupted when a cop pulled me over last week. It was almost 10 p.m., and I was racing to get to the Builder's Square across town before they closed so I could get the wood screws I needed for my basement shelving project. Out of nowhere, Smokey swoops down on me, apparently preferring that I get to the store after it closes.

The first sign of trouble from this state-supported moron comes when he asks, 'Do you know how fast you were going, sir?' Boy, did I ever! Ninety-three! So I say to him, 'I've got a question for you, officer: If you've got a radar gun right there in your cop car, why do you have to ask? What are you, stupid?'

Next thing I know, I'm in court. I end up in front of a judge, and I think to myself, 'Finally! A sensible pillar of the community who'll respond to reason!'

Well, guess what Judge Chucklehead has the gall to ask? 'How do you wish to plead to the charges, Mr. Turpin?' Ye gods, was I in the Twilight Zone? What kind of question is that? I was dying to say to him, 'Yeah, I think I'll plead guilty to first-degree trying to finish my shelves! May I see my loved ones one more time before you shoot me?'

But I held back, because I try to show respect to people in positions of authority, even if they don't deserve it. So, instead of responding in a condescending manner, I answered plainly, 'How do I wish to plead? What do you think, stupid?'

I don't even want to get into what happened next, but suffice it to say my faith in our justice system was shaken to its core.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:56:31 (GMT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim says: People don't
Subject: Ever considered a Dale Carnegie Course Jim? (NT)
Message:
OOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:11:15 (GMT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You mean like the one you took?
Message:
Of course that's a self-deprecating joke, isn't it Dogg? Or is it?

You and your friends got about a quarter of our premie community to take that silly 1950's sales course back in the seventies. I thought it was stupid then like I do now. It was funny that you'd want to supplement the Knowledge of God with such trivial bromides. You know, this Dale Carnegie stuff was really good for nothing more than late night comic material. And here you are taking it seriously. Tell me you don't mean it seriously, Dogg. The next thing you know, you'll be telling us that you follow that little, fat Indian guru guy from the seventies. You know, the one with all them Rolls Royces. What was his name? You know, I think he had some place up in Oregon. Maharishi or something?

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 13:07:53 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim says: People don't
Subject: like it when you call them stupid
Message:
Yes there is a better way. The speaker has to say that he/she is stupid. That floors them. They don't know what to say after that.
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:13:21 (GMT)
From: Stonor
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: If you can, listen to CBC Radio's 'From Naked Apes
Message:
to Super Species' on Ideas tonight, or at the CBC website.
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:16:16 (GMT)
From: Chris
Email: None
To: Stonor
Subject: If you can, listen to CBC Radio's 'From Naked Apes
Message:
Dear Stonor,

Where do you live?

Chris

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:33:32 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is Maharaji a Zen Buddhist?
Message:
I've been doing some reading on Zen. I think it's pretty cool. It advocates being aware. I can dig that. I'm aware of the benefits of, ahem, being aware. So any school of thought that is an advocate of awareness is alright by me. But I'm wondering if Maharaji has been doing some reading on Zen, too, and maybe if he's even converted.

Knowledge in the seventies and early eighties was all about seeing light, hearing music, tasting nectar, and of course, grooving on the vibration of the all encompassing, all important, primordial.... WORD. These days Maharaji is telling people not to even think about that stuff, to just let Knowledge 'be what it is'. Now, I don't know about you, but that sounds awful Zen-ish to me. Anybody else wondering if Maharaji's become a Zen Buddhist? No? I think he has.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:58:15 (GMT)
From: Basho
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: GM, no attachments, I think not
Message:
If only, then the slug might shut up and let meditators find out whatever for themselves, instead of jamming their brains with his verbal diorrhea.

Of course any old timers that are left would just see it as another lila.......the price of history I guess.

For bb, zen is about no concepts, so thinking about, focusing on, enlightenment is just a waist of time, there is only what is, and what is, is.

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:23:44 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Basho
Subject: But I love concepts!
Message:
But Basho, the zen concept IS a concept!
And isnt 'what is, is.' kind of like requireing you to first accept some concepts so that you can even just say 'what is(having a concept about the 'IS') is.
Otherwise you are left like a kid without a clue about the world you live in.
Besides, I garauntee you, in the monk building, or huts or whatever, they have tons of personal disagreements even if they have a code of silence. THEY cant accept what is.
That IS true you know! Good ole human nature pops the bubble
of supposed detachment because no one can be in a body and escape the pestky human nature and all its compelling likes and dislikes and our envy of the OTHER monks slightly better bowl.
Who gets the best prayer cloth...who eats more than thier share...who hogs all the soap...who gets all the candles for worship while I only get one....and that is just envy!
There are all those other things built into the system to fuck up the what is is view.
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 07:19:40 (GMT)
From: Basho
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: But I love concepts!
Message:
Even to say what is is, isn't a description of an ultimate reality, & really I was trying to paraphrase w3hat zen is about, but trying to paraphrase no-thing nothingness ain't easy, even nothingness is a non-zen buddhist term!

Re the monks, couldn't agree more, the zen I like is non-institutional, but I guess if you'd actually read my poetry, and I'm well published, but if you'd red that you'd already know , or rather no. The zen monks I loved were the ones who left the shrams & stuff and hit the road, and when asked for advice or instant wisdom told people to piss off, have a pint and talk about the weather, or got them to chop some wood.

bb, your a zen fella through & through, the best ones never know it

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 13:17:39 (GMT)
From: bbsho
Email: None
To: Basho
Subject: But I love concepts!
Message:
'But if you'd read that you'd already know but no.'
Great line! You have my vote for head monk!

One the plus side, you never see Zen monks on tv evangelizing.
Hmmm, where do I send the check?
Maybe they should take over the world. Sundays would be different

Or maybe we would never have gotten sundays off. Zenites never rest? are always at rest? Flow with the rest?

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:39:35 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Is Maharaji an asshole?
Message:
He cant say what it is because he does not know what it is!

I can help him on that, the breath is just a motion.
Might as well rub your private parts and call the orgasm
the 'infinite bliss' or 'samadhi' or whatever.

Seems to me the kundalini serpent is just hindu code for those
guys in the caves finding desire creeping up on them AND
then it shoots up the spine to the top of the head?
Hmmmm.

The whole fraud of enlightenment is just a dumb dead end!

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 20:59:01 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Is Maharaji an asshole?
Message:
You poor thing.
JB
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 16:52:41 (GMT)
From: BeezleBill
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: Imagine the enlightenment...
Message:
Name an enlightened person or expand on the idea that
'enlightenment' is more than what a drug high can get you.

Imagine the joy of the person that finally 'gets it' that
bal bhagwan ji is the master of life and a true guru.

Imagine the enlightenment of the person that finally recognises
that adhering to the Islamic religion is all he has been missing
in his life.

Imagine the enlightenment and joy of the person who Finally
gets to the seventh level of scientology and attains true
knowledge and now finally understands this life.

I like reading your posts JB, the enlightenment idea still
seems to be outside my range of belief. Depends how it is
defined of course, the lower the bar, the easier it is for me
to agree. Like, when I finally learn all the functions on the
tv remote, I will be enlightened as far as the remote is concerned.

But I would need to know about one enlightened person to be
able to buy into the idea that enlightenment is a human
possibility.

Hindus and buddhists and easterners claiming they are
enlightened doesnt count. Occums Razer needs to come into play
somewhere on this issue;)

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 13:53:49 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: I think so
Message:
The whole fraud of enlightenment is just a dumb dead end!

Hey, Bill, these zen guys say to achieve enlightenment, you must realize the folly of pursuing it. I think what they mean is that enlightenment happens when you're busy being aware, for awareness' sake, not because you're focused on enlightenment down the road. But I don't think that happens the way they depict it as happenning to the Buddha. I don't think enlightenment is a plateau you reach never to come down from. I think there are just moments of it, now and again, where your consciousness shifts, and you just get some nice vibes in your bones and are more focused for the duration of it.

I'll say it again. If Maharaji wasn't such an egomaniac, and only pointed people in the direction of using these techniques for heightening awareness, I think I might have gotten something out of them. But because he had to be a snake oil salesman, selling these techniques as being the way to instant cosmic consciousness, playing off of our childish fantasies of spirituality, and claiming to have techniques more powerful than any other guru's, (he was after all the 'living perfect master', and there can only be one), I think he really screwed it up for a lot of people any genuine benefit these techniques may have had.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:58:14 (GMT)
From: bee bee
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: smokin' enlightenment
Message:
HI Jerry,
That sounds like the forum here.
I guess when someone becomes an ex, they are enlightened
according to that definition.
That 'to achieve it you must realize the folly of pursueing it'

I think you really didnt mean to say that he was 'playing off
our childish fantasies of spirituality'.
Cause of course, we didnt have any. They were driven in us
by a group of delusional egomanical lying ect ect.

The 'techniques' so called are doomed by the association
with the oneness crowd. Luckily, we have cigarettes for those
that like to notice thier breath. Short little breath meditation
smokes. Buy your meditation by the pack!

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 20:22:26 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bee bee
Subject: Childish fantasies
Message:
I think you really didnt mean to say that he was 'playing off our childish fantasies of spirituality'.

Oh, yes I did, Bill. In my case, it was the fantasy of having a personal savior, a la Jesus Christ. He played that one to the hilt. I really thought that he might be the reincarnated Christ. Nobody told me he wasn't.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:14:13 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Childish fantasies
Message:
I was told that Bal Bhagwan Ji was jesus and that gmj was
the father god.
I see what you are saying. We were in the saviour ball game
already and he played off that.
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 17:01:57 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Altered states
Message:
There's altered states but I wouldn't call them 'enlightenment'. I think enlightenment is a mythical goal which is presented to people to give them a purpose for practising some form of discipline or meditation.

I've had altered states with the breath and the nectar techniques. I was never 'enlightened' and never even thought about such a concept at the time.

Regarding the Zen master idea. Anyone could be a Zen master, since there's no definition of one. Jim would be a likely candidate or perhaps Chris Dickey.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 18:23:22 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: True states
Message:
David,

I think these zen guys are talking about awareness, period. I know they go on about Ultimate Reality, and realizing True Self, but I think that's all just an exaggeration of what's right under our noses, which we have a tendency to look passed, because our minds are focused on the very mythical state which you speak of.

It's just a matter of degrees, how focused you are on reality. That means how tuned you are into your present awareness, and only that. When that happens, you enter a nice space. I wouldn't call it an 'altered' state, like what happens under hallucinogens, so much as I would call it a true state, like when your head is clear and your focus is in the now. I think that's all these guys are talking about. It's not anymore complex than that.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 19:15:41 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: False states
Message:
Jerry, we disagree if you think those Zen masters know any more about anything than Joe Bloggs down the road. I don't believe there are any masters. Just people who think they know more than other people and who are supported in this myth by their devotees.

It's all nonsense as far as I'm concerned. There are no masters of life.

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:06:09 (GMT)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Real Masters
Message:
That's rubbish! There are great masters who meditate a lot. Just because you weren't one of them doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm not sure where m fits here because I get the feeling he doesn't do a lot of practice. He even walks out during knowlege sessions. I think he may have A.D.D. He seems to have a lot of other interests. On second thoughts he probably doesn't have A.D.D. because he became a pilot.

Jackie

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:35:32 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Real Masters
Message:
Hi Jack, I have made a search of masters and I am at a loss to
find one. But, always willing to check out a possible contender!

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 15:49:34 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Real Masters
Message:
Bill,

You don't think there's anyone out there who, because they have dedicated their lives to the practice of meditation, have 'mastered' it, learned something from it, and can guide others as a result? Do you think that they're all a bunch of egotists surrounded by sycophants? If that's true, that's very sad. Maybe we've just become a little jaded because of our experience with Maharaji.

I still think the eastern way of thought has something to offer because of it's emphasis on consciousness, and if there is something to learn there, I want to learn it. I just hope I'm wiser now, after Maharaji, and am able to distinguish a true master from a fraud. I don't think it's right to lump them all into one basket. That would be like saying that all Blacks are muggers and thieves, all Irish drink too much, all Jews are money-grubbers, and so on.

I'll tell you what. I'm thinking about following up on this new found interest in zen and finding a master. If I do, I'll tell my master when we first meet, 'Master, I must let you know that, first, I hate that word, and second, fuck you. I just need to say that to let you know that it's not YOU I'm interested in,but what you might lead me to. Is that OK with you?' What do you think he'd say?

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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 16:55:37 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Real Masters
Message:
Thanks for the laughs.
I think he would be stunned. No one confronts those guys.
But, he would say some standard line that would imply that
the student is not ready to reach for the 'divine', and it would
be a slam at you of course!
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 19:04:01 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Real Masters
Message:
Ah, but if he was a true master, he would be unfazed and realize where I'm coming from. He would find me refreshing, if not a little insulting, perhaps. But hey, the way these guys talk about detachments and smiling in the face of adversity, they deserve to be tested in such a manner, to see if they're really at where they preach.

I'll tell you, Bill. I don't know where I'm going with this. I've been reading one book in particular, Everyday Zen, by Charlotte Joko Beck. She's an American broad, about 90 years old, who says stuff like this:

In this process we discover that our own pain and others' pain are not separate worlds. It's not that 'My practice is my practice, and their practice is their practice'; because when we truly open up to our own lives we open up to all life. The delusion of separateness diminishes as we pay the price of attentive practice. To overcome that delusion is to realize in practice that we are not only paying a high price for ourselves, but for everyone else in the world. [my emphasis].

This is new age to the bone. First, she talks about 'delusions of separateness', then she spouts her own delusions of grandeur. Paying a price for everyone in the world. Please. This is where I think 'masters' become dangerous, when they start infecting their students with their own personal philosophies, and because they're supposed to be 'masters', you automatically assume they know what they are talking about, and before you know it, you're this new age, meme machine. No, a true zen master is somebody like my man, master Fayan Qingyuan, an 11th century monk, who would blow his disciples' minds by pulling stunts like this:

Zen master Fayan Qingyuan entered the hall and addressed the monks, saying, 'Just a moment ago I thought about some karmic action, but now I've forgotten what it was! At least I remember my staff!

Raising up his staff, Fayan said, 'I've forgotten my staff!'

Striking the staff on the ground, he said, 'The same hole doesn't have different dirt. Aagh!'

Now, that's Zen, baby. That's what I like.

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 09:51:13 (GMT)
From: Hal
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Meeting a Zen master
Message:
Meeting a zen master on the road,
Face him with neither words nor silence,
Give him an uppercut,
And you will be called one who understands zen.

Maybe one of the PAMS should greet Maha in that way?

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 15:52:07 (GMT)
From: JB
Email: None
To: Jerry / bb
Subject: To Jer and bb
Message:
Hi you two,

I'm enjoying this thread so much I couldn't even finish, I had to post something. Not that I have any words of wisdom, but after bb said he enjoyed my posts up above and I've always enjoyed Jerry's ( big kiss) I thought I'd put my two cents in.

This master thing bugs me - like you guys are hung up on it - hows about you drop the 'master' and think 'teacher'. Get as much as you can and move on. We don't stay w/ our 3rd grade teacher forever I don't think they're smart enough for Calculus and chemistry - so we learn what we can and we go to the next one. No harm done, a tip of the hat in thanks and mosey on to the next teacher.

That's why I think there is so much 'vitriol' about GMJ. It took some too long to mosey along...and in my most humble opinion
I think my therapist would say,' they are really mad at
themselves.' But, I digress...

Are you guys that interested in enlightenment ... I love it.
Do any of us care if there was someone that WAS enlightened?
Yes, sure. I say stay simple and go for as much happiness and insight and wisdom as possible wherever that leads. I'm getting insight into myself posting with you all. I'll stay till I don't. Ya' know? Am I making any sense? I'll read on now to end of thread so far. Love ya,

JB

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 21:42:43 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: JB
Subject: To JB
Message:
Well, JB, big kiss back to ya. Hope you're a girl. About enlightenment, haven't you been paying attention? Seeking enlightenment is foolishness. We seek only to be aware.

Ooooooommmmmmmm.....zzzzzzzz.....zzzzzzzz....

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 03:13:45 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Real Masters
Message:
Ilikeittoo.
whatfuntobethemasterandeverythingyoudoandsayisalessoninsomewayandnonemayjudgebecauseIamdrinkingandincoherantandnonecandeciferthatandtheyrespectmetoomuchtoseethatiamdrunkasaskunk.IlovethiszenmasterfunespeciallywhenIgettobethemasterafterlongyearsofmonkdom!
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 04:23:25 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Real Masters
Message:
Ah, Bill. Great performance. You've got my one hand clapping. Have another drink on me. But wouldn't that be a trip if that's the way it is? You just get to be the master because of all the years you put in as a monk? Doesn't mean you know shit from shinola, it's just your turn to be the king. I wonder if that's not just the way it goes.
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 05:08:23 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Real fondlers
Message:
Jerryzen,
Yes Grasshopper, little monks sometimes grow up to be big monks.
But there is the one non-monk kid that is picked out because he picked the previous dali lamas favorite item out of a box filled with things. just recently ANOTHER group in tibet, the red or yellow hats decided that THIER top guy can ALSO reincarnate and pick stuff out of a box and now we have more than one kid monk god. The rest are like you said, schmucks that rise to fill the shoes of the recently deceased head monks, they rise up the ranks warts and all. How can anyone judge them anyway in a zen world? Any answer to a battery of questions qualifying a candidate would be a winner! As long as the answer was undecipherable, the guy would be a shoe in for a upper monk job!
What a hoot! And grasshopper is so trusting in HIS master, I wonder if they have the same priest/alterboy issues in tibetian monkdom. NO doubt! AND, no possible retributions. It was a zen lesson!
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 09:31:31 (GMT)
From: jasmine
Email: webmaster@snookies.com
To: bb
Subject: Really? fond
Message:
i want 2 say sum thing like
ex means past forgotten gone no longer exists
and premie which means ,,,i think/ stink lover
duh
no longer lovers

fine whatever... nice premise
but i get deleted a lot of times so i cry and cry and cry o my,, deep in the heart of bisban
i made the hall of ex fame one time
where's my lawyer.com?

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 13:22:07 (GMT)
From: Alladin
Email: None
To: jasmine
Subject: Really? fond
Message:
Jasmine
That is your second hall of famer!
Unless Jaffar-drek misses it
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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 04:35:53 (GMT)
From: Cheese
Email: None
To: Alladin
Subject: fondu nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 02:31:16 (GMT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: You're right of course, Jack
Message:
There are great masters who meditate a lot.

Click here for great masters who meditate a lot

I'm sorry I forgot that there were these great souls amongst us.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 20:36:19 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Zen states
Message:
Well, zen 'masters' make it a point to teach their students that they're their own masters. From what I've read, so far, they really make it a point to impress this upon them. I have no qualms with that. Buddah's last words, supposedly, were 'Be a lamp unto yourself'. In other words, light your own path, the lamp is in your hands. What's wrong with that? All these guys are doing is getting together to become more conscious. I think that's great. I think that zen might be the one path left in eastern mysticism that scorns the personality cults that so many others promote.
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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 23:56:36 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Zen states via Dalston
Message:
Interesting thread Jerr, but hamzen's already been taken, how bout Jerrysattva?

Re tapes, yeah I know, the boring saga continues, after a year I still can't afford a second deck so I'm copying some older tapes for ya, still interested? same address?

By the way re Enlightenment, you & Bill Buzzbee are both wrong, I experienced Enlightenment sat night/sunday morn, and it works, well if you're into goa trance, and the female company was interesting, only teasing Jed!

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 01:57:21 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Zen states via Dalston
Message:
Hi Ham,

Yeah, if it's no bother I'm still interested in the tape. Same address. Hope you get your hands on a second deck soon enough. The way you talk about this stuff, you without a deck is like Hendrix without a guitar.

I'm new to Zen. I always knew it was there, but like a good premie ji, I always kept my eyes on the prize via Maharaji, with no false gods before him. But I don't plan on prostrating before the first Zen master I come across. To be honest, I think I've had my fill of masters. I'm just intrigued at what I'm learning about it. I'll probbably do a little zazen on my own for awhile, see where it takes me. I''m already familiar with being mindful during the course of a day. I was doing that before I even heard of Zen. I'm keenly aware of the benefits.

That trance stuff is gonna get ya, Ham. And go easy on the ladies. You know what they say about too much of a good thing.

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 20:24:36 (GMT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Zen states via Dalston
Message:
Jerr, fill us in, re zazen, long time since I've read anything in this territory.

Re no organized routes, strikes me as one of the few genuine benefits of having been through that bad dream, no illusions, it's all personal etc etc

Re the decks, yeah but it's been good in another way taking a break, the 90's were pretty intense for me, or was that in tents, ie Glastonbury/free festivals, if they mean anything to ya.

Re the ladies, yeah couldn't agree more, specially if you're the sensitive type but having taken a break for a couple of years it's slow slow for me, mind you that ccould be age!

The trance night was really called Enlightenment!

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 22:27:51 (GMT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Zazen
Message:
Zazen is zen meditation. There's 4 different techniques. (No, not those). They're:

1) Counting breaths

2) Just focusing on the breath without counting (and you thought this was M's private territory, didn't you? Well, maybe you didn't, but I did).

3) Just sitting, being aware, not of anything in particular, but whatever's part of your consciousness at any given moment; your breath, traffic ouside your window, the feel of your hands in your lap, whatever. (This is the one I find most interesting).

4) Resolving a koan, such as 'the sound of one hand clapping'.

And that, my friend, is zazen. There's also a big to do about proper posture and all, but I'm not going to trouble myself much about that.

The trance night was really called Enlightenment!

One of these nights, I'm going to get out and do this shit. If I get addicted, I'm blaming you.

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 22:49:07 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Zazen
Message:
Trance night meaning a goa rave?
I want to go to a rave. I will do it British style, without the massive drug assist.
I want some goa music.
I will try the zazen, what the heck!
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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 02:31:27 (GMT)
From: billdha
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Jerrysattva..Hamzenmaster..JB(liss?)
Message:
I read Jerrysattva's shocking comment he may not prostrate to the zen master. A grevious error that can only lengthen his walk in the outer darkness. I took the news like an animal taking a bullet and left the glowing radiance of the screen of enlightenment and went and prostrated in front of my wife in the hopes that I might have 'that experience' that Hamzenmaster had on saturday night/sunday morning. My master took my offering of ice cream but I know that she was not attached to the idea that there should be a tit for tat. Moving the chair away from the screen, I am on my knees typeing as a reminder that I must constantly be humble and like a glass under the internet faucet of divine wisdom. Nice of JB to join us at our lunch table, but I have bad news for Jerrysattva! But...oops! I mean....however,it IS 2000 and really, as they say in her majesties sunny kingdom, 'relax, go to it, when you want to go to it'. You wouldn't kick JW out of bed would you? Sooo

I'll have to report in on my possible samahdi.

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 03:58:02 (GMT)
From: Peter Noone
Email: None
To: billdha
Subject: No milk today
Message:
Alas alak the master lumbered off to repose with an ice cream headache. Without the master there is no experience so I shall take the cold shower of satsang and do some service in the kitchen and surrender. Maybe if I compose a zen Haiku I shall find that elusive goal of self satisfaction. But I know that it is said that all I need is myself....but I am not some hamfisted type that just takes things in hand and accomplishes thier goals. I am one of those weak minded types that think that when 'two OR MORE' are gathered I come.
So I wait till the dawn. To arise and stand tall and seek that union in the bliss. What IS that goa trance anyway?
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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 20:31:24 (GMT)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Peter Noone
Subject: Right Here, Right Now
Message:
' What IS that goa trance anyway?'

Psychedelic trance music, hippy end of the house music scene, we're talking good vibes, the way festivals with you know who, could and should have been.

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Date: Tues, Mar 07, 2000 at 22:42:59 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: left then left again
Message:
Yes, and it could have been that way if rawat had the right upbringing. But, shri hans fell into the the worship me trap and established the brand. Jr. was trying to fit in the dads slippers and fell to earth in a very sloppy way.
All the ugly seven sins ect.
Someone could pitch the breath religion with a twist but for some reason religion and god subjects are cursed.
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Date: Sun, Mar 05, 2000 at 04:19:47 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Zen states
Message:
Well Jerry,
Instead of leaving people alone to just be a lamp of thier
own, there are thousands of sentences and duties that are ladled
on thier head. You COULD take some qoutes of rawat and say
SEE! He just wanted us to discover ourselves!

But, not true, same with all the others no matter how different
they are.

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Date: Mon, Mar 06, 2000 at 03:49:26 (GMT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Zen counties
Message:
lighten up burke,
not everyone has to blaze thier trail in fields and woods that are unmarked. What.the.heck,if.someone.blazed.a.trail.to.nowhere,it.dont.mean .the.next.guy,.being.different,wont.enjoy.the.view.and.do.his.own.variation..just.because.you.have.doubts.that.jesus.was.even.sane.based.on.some.of.parables,like.the.one.you.heard.today.about.the.10.talents,you.arent.about.to.announce.on.the.forum.that.maybe...all.the.saviours.are.madmen.and.we.are.lucky.that.history.is.as..calm.as.it.was.and.not.a.whole.lot.worse.An.that.the.self.aware..power.is.just.maxed.out.by.the.whole.earthling.trip.and.that.the.reason.people.take.drugs.and.drink.so.much.is.the.damn...........(excuse..me,dang).power.likes.to.escape.reality.also..We.like.TV.in.the.same.way.that.IT.liked.watching.and.playing.with.us..It...helps.with.the.boredom..In.the.begining,.god.was.just.completely.bored.with.just.some.dang.ELEMENTS.and.temperature.and.motion....and.nonmotion.and.thinking.thinking.thinking!
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 03:57:03 (GMT)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Is Maharaji an asshole?
Message:
finding desire creeping up on them AND
then it shoots up the spine to the top of
the head
smirk snicker.... I am very tempted
to write a different type approach answer to that
but it would fit better over on AG. Let's just say
those guys must have some interesting anatomy.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 18:16:02 (GMT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Multi-Ethnic Joke (OT)
Message:
Just to show that ex-premies have a sense of humor and aren't entirely PC, I thought the following was funny, and since it pokes fun at everyone equally, no one should find it offensive.

The following people are stranded after a shipwreck:

Two Italian men and one Italian woman
Two French men and one French woman
Two German men and one German woman
Two Greek men and one Greek woman
Two English men and one English woman
Two Japanese men and one Japanese woman
Two Chinese men and one Chinese woman
Two American men and one American woman
Two Irish men and one Irish woman

One month later on this beautiful island the following things occurred:

One Italian man killed the other Italian man for the Italian woman.

The two French men and the French woman are living happily together in a menage-a-trois.

The two German men have established a strict weekly schedule for alternating visits with the German woman.

The two Greek men are sleeping with each other and the Greek woman is cooking and cleaning for them.

The two English men are waiting for someone to introduce them to the English woman.

The two Japanese men have faxed Tokyo and are awaiting instructions.

The two Chinese men have set up a combination pharmacy/liquor store/restaurant/laundry, and have gotten the Chinese woman pregnant in order to supply employees for their enterprise.

The two American men are contemplating suicide because the American woman keeps complaining about her body, the true nature of feminism, how she can do everything they can, the necessity of fulfillment, the equal division of household chores, how the backdrop of sand and palm trees make her look fat, how her last boyfriend respected her opinion and treated her nicer than they do, how her relationship with her mother is improving, and how at least the taxes are low and it doesn't rain very much.

The two Irish men divided the island into North and South sections and set up a distillery. They do not remember if sex is in the picture because it got sort of foggy after the first few batches of coconut whiskey. But they're satisfied because at least the English are not having any fun.

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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 07:06:18 (GMT)
From: Irish woman-partly
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Multi-Ethnic Joke (OT)
Message:
And the Irish woman made a raft and sailed away!
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Date: Sat, Mar 04, 2000 at 01:47:17 (GMT)
From: coconut brassiere
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: sand in my......
Message:
The American woman wouldnt mention taxes or the rain.
She would complain about no fridge, tv shows, chocolate,
pharmacy, stores, soap and showers and sheets and a
clothes washer and the behavior of her new neighbors.
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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 21:59:13 (GMT)
From: M's Manicurist
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Multi-Ethnic Joke (OT)
Message:
Hillarious, J.W.

Thanks,

M's Manicurist

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Date: Fri, Mar 03, 2000 at 18:23:22 (GMT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Great joke JW! LOL!! ...and thanks! (nt)
Message:
nt
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