Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 14
From: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 To: Thurs, Dec 30, 1999 Page: 1 Of: 5


Katie -:- My post from AG (and goodbye) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:08:43 (EST)
__ Carol of OR -:- Re: My post from AG (and goodbye) -:- Thurs, Dec 30, 1999 at 01:30:26 (EST)
__ JW -:- Enjoy, Katie -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 08:50:23 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Re: My post from AG (and goodbye) -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 01:21:08 (EST)
__ eb -:- Re: My post from AG (and goodbye) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 23:45:01 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Nothing personal but I think this is a GOOD thing -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 22:01:07 (EST)
__ __ Runamok -:- Re: Nothing personal but I think this is a GOOD thing -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 23:32:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That's a joke, Run -- but thanks anyway -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 23:43:41 (EST)
__ Runamok -:- bye Katie -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:58:45 (EST)
__ bb -:- Re: My post from AG (and goodbye) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:57:41 (EST)
__ Anon -:- Re: My post from AG (and goodbye) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 17:47:09 (EST)
__ RT -:- Re: My (and goodbye) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 16:11:16 (EST)
__ ATB -:- Re: My post from AG (and goodbye) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 16:04:25 (EST)
__ __ bb -:- Re: My post from AG (and goodbye) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:21:55 (EST)
__ Selene -:- Re: My post from AG (and goodbye) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:19:12 (EST)
__ __ SeleniePie again -:- and ps Katie -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:30:42 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia -:- Sorry You Are Leaving but.... -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 15:55:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Sorry To See You Go -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 19:42:57 (EST)

Cynthia -:- Andy Gave me Satsang! -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:01:52 (EST)
__ Mike -:- Re: Andy Gave me Satsang! -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 18:45:03 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: Andy Gave me Satsang! -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 01:31:32 (EST)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Re: Andy Gave me Satsang! -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 10:33:45 (EST)
__ __ I be damned -:- that was me -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 19:46:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Mike -:- Re: that was me -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 10:25:18 (EST)
__ Jim -:- It's all fine so long as you have respect (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:07:38 (EST)

Sir Dave -:- I'd have told him to get stuffed -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:32:39 (EST)
__ 'Jim' -:- Re: I'd have told him to get stuffed -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:39:19 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- I've seen that browser before -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 03:11:31 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- I didn't post the above but, well, I agree with all of it (go figure!) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:42:48 (EST)
__ Jim -:- I absolutely agree, Dave -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:38:58 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Here's how she put it -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:49:07 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Here's how she put it -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:37:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Selene -:- Re: Here's how she put it -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 12:19:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Here's how she put it -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 15:45:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ His-left-foot -:- Poof...... -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 18:49:52 (EST)

Whatever happened to -:- One Foundation -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:16:20 (EST)
__ Barry McKenzie -:- Re: One Foundation -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 02:24:02 (EST)
__ Coach -:- It collapsed(nt) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 16:07:21 (EST)
__ bb -:- no real Foundation -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:35:05 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- Kim has been Upstaged by Daya -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:27:59 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- That was so obvious from the video event I saw -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:35:32 (EST)

CBI -:- Sincerity & innocence -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 07:00:48 (EST)
__ Jack -:- Re: Sincerity & innocence -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 00:37:47 (EST)
__ __ ATB -:- You are as free as you feel Jack -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 15:45:51 (EST)
__ All the best -:- Re: Sincerity & innocence -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 14:50:04 (EST)
__ Marianne -:- Very perceptive, CBI -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:57:42 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- Malibu satistics -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:09:29 (EST)
__ Liz -:- Same Statistics -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 00:32:21 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Yeah, but how many premies can afford Malibu? -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:42:06 (EST)
__ Enough -:- Re: Malibu satistics -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:25:52 (EST)

Roger eDrek -:- Moving forward -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 04:15:31 (EST)
__ Selene -:- Re: Moving forward -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 22:30:07 (EST)
__ Thine Enemy -:- Moving round in circles -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 14:43:29 (EST)
__ __ Coach -:- Great post -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:14:56 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Alright, Coach!! -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:04:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Coach -:- Re: Alright, Coach!! -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:43:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Well that's it, isn't it? -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 22:13:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Coach -:- indeed, that's it for tonight. -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 22:40:02 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Thanks, Coach! -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:39:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Coach -:- Hup, one two, hup..... -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:17:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Thine Enemy -:- Great post -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:37:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- More cyber-terrorism from Cerberus! -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 00:47:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Thine Enemy -:- More irrational bleating from Roger -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 01:33:56 (EST)
__ __ Mike -:- Re: Moving round in circles -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 19:03:22 (EST)
__ __ __ Thine Enemy -:- Re: Moving round in circles -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:40:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- more cyber-terrorisn from our friend Cerby (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 00:49:56 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- HAVE A NICE DAY??? AFTER THAT??(NT) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 16:01:43 (EST)
__ Jim -:- A different kind of wheat and chaff -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 08:36:36 (EST)
__ __ from the cheap seats -:- Morals -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:25:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- What's wrong with talking about morals? -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:31:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ whoever-the-fuck-I-am -:- immoral -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 12:17:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Your Posts Should be ***BEST OF**** -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:48:59 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Thanks, Cynthia -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:28:44 (EST)

Anon -:- Was God usually Indian? -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 18:28:54 (EST)
__ AJW -:- No, mostly Irish. (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:09:38 (EST)
__ Runamok -:- Re: Was God usually Indian? -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 00:38:37 (EST)
__ __ Anon -:- Re: Was God usually Indian? -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 06:39:13 (EST)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: Was God usually Indian? -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:06:16 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Literally volumes of books? -- sorry, Anon, cldn't resist -- excellent post -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 22:54:07 (EST)
__ michael -:- Re: Was God usually Indian? -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 22:15:05 (EST)
__ __ Caoch -:- Re: Was God usually Indian? -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 23:04:08 (EST)
__ __ bb -:- Re: Was God usually Indian? -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:14:45 (EST)
__ __ Michael -:- Re: Was God usually Indian? -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 08:52:25 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia, raised Roman Catholic -:- says 'No he's Polish, right, the Pope is Polish, my mother told me (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 12:00:50 (EST)

CBI -:- Wishing and hoping -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 17:17:02 (EST)
__ AJW -:- What would happen if Maharaji died? -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:25:56 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Satpal would carpetbag -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:38:17 (EST)
__ JW -:- Re: Wishing and hoping -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 19:20:34 (EST)
__ __ All the best -:- Re: Wishing and hoping -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:50:28 (EST)
__ __ __ JW -:- Re: Wishing and hoping -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:54:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ ATB -:- Re: Wishing and hoping -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 15:16:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Wishing and hoping -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 17:11:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ ATB -:- Re: Wishing and hoping -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 19:14:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Wishing and hoping -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 22:38:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ATB -:- Re: Wishing and hoping -:- Thurs, Dec 23, 1999 at 18:01:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Wishing and hoping -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 17:09:50 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Innocence and Experience. -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:36:44 (EST)

Andrew Gerrard -:- Message for Forum Admin -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 16:54:31 (EST)
__ gerry -:- Re: Message for Forum Admin -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 17:05:00 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Possible apologies to Andrew -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 17:58:26 (EST)
__ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: Possible apologies to Andrew -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 18:40:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ DV -:- Re: Possible apologies to Andrew -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:09:35 (EST)

Way -:- New Yorker evolution article (OT) -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 11:18:18 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Your tone is trouble, Way -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 21:19:16 (EST)
__ __ Way -:- Re: Your tone is trouble, Way -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:19:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Science is more than peoples' opinions -- that's the diff -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 18:34:50 (EST)
__ __ __ hamzen -:- Re:systems theory -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:07:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh no! Not that gobbledygook again! -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 18:38:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: Re:systems theory -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:59:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Re: Re:systems theory -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 15:33:38 (EST)
__ bb -:- Re: New Yorker evolution article (OT) -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 13:10:34 (EST)
__ __ DV -:- Re: New Yorker evolution article (OT) -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:41:32 (EST)
__ __ Way -:- To bb re:Mohammed -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 13:48:22 (EST)
__ __ __ bb -:- Re: To bb re:Mohammed -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:40:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Ha! Thanks for the laugh! (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 15:24:23 (EST)


Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:08:43 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: All
Subject: My post from AG (and goodbye)
Message:
Hi everyone -
I posted the following statement on the Anything Goes Forum a few days ago. I didn't want to put in on Forum IV because it seemed off topic to me. It lead to a long thread on AG, and since Jim is posting quotes from some of my responses in that thread on this forum, and people are responding to them, I thought I'd better post the original post here (apologies to those who do not want to read this stuff), with addendum.

Jim wrote a long post to me on Forum IV which ended with the words:
The thing about you, though, Katie, is that you've proudly told us on many occassions that you, personally, don't give a damn if a person's in the cult or not. You don't care if Maharaji stays in business either for that matter. Well, if that's the way you think then maybe this really isn't the place for you. What do you think?

There are some factual errors in Jim's statement - for example, I DO care if people follow Maharaji or not IF following him is doing bad things to them. I cannot be more specific here, although I am sure that statement could be torn apart and dissected in a number of negative ways.

The reason I started posting on the ex-premie forum in the first place was because I found out that a premie friend of mine had killed himself. I felt really bad about that, and wanted to do something to 'be there' for people like my friend, Sam. So yeah, I do care.

However, there are premies on Forum IV that I'm not going to try to convince not to follow Maharaji. I don't think it's a good thing to do, but IMHO, and I have always said this, there are far WORSE things that people can do. And thus I really do not care that much whether Maharaji stays in business or not. My primary concern in posting on the ex-premie forums was always for those people who have been hurt by following M. Thus I didn't 'challenge' premies unless I felt that they were interfering with the functioning of the forum. And Catweasel will probably testify that I did ask him a few times what in the world he was doing on the ex-premie forum. He did answer me politely, and that's what I was talking about when I said:
As regards premies on the forum: as long as premies are allowed on the forum, I think they should be treated with respect - unless they're a total flamer or spammer who is saying nothing (and then they usually get blocked)... Every time I have talked to Catweasel like he (or she?) is a human being, he's responded in kind, and I appreciate that. You can still disagree with people - even vehemently disagree with people - and treat them with respect.

I stand by that statement. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying it. It's my OPINION and I certainly don't expect other people to share it.

Anyway, to repeat the statement I copied from Jim's post to me, he said: Well, if that's the way you think then maybe this really isn't the place for you. What do you think?

I think that I don't belong on Forum IV - at least in the forseeable future. Either the ex-premie forum has changed or I have - whatever. I can't tell and I don't really care. I don't have what appears to be the requisite anger towards premies and I don't even have very much anger towards Maharaji - I never did. I have said over and over on the forum that my experience with DLM wasn't that bad. It wasn't GOOD, but it was better than where I came from, that's for sure. I will always appreciate the kindness of some of the premies I met when I first began to follow M. I was only 16 and desperately needed acceptance and caring, and those particular premies provided it. Despite what some people might say, I believe that those people were honestly loving and caring people, and I wish them well.

I've been going through a lot of personal grief during the last several days about leaving the forum, and this is the first day that I've felt like I could even post anything. I have put a lot of time and energy into the forum over the years. I made some good friends there, and met some great peoople, and it's sad that it is ending. But I see no choice - I can't change how I feel in order to fit in here, and I am not willing to deal with the ridicule and criticism that I encounter because I don't fit in. It's just not worth it to me - I have a life in the outside world that's very important to me, and when a bunch of binary code posted on the internet begins to affect my life that negatively, it's gotta go.

For those of you who are interested, someone else is now adminstering the Recent Exes forum. And Brian and I are in process of transferring the webmastership of ex-premie.org to another person who we think will do a great job (but who prefers to remain anonymous for now.)

Thanks to all of you who I've made friends with via this medium - that part of it has been a wonderful experience for me. I am sure I'll stay in touch with many of you. And it's been great to meet some of you in the 'real world'.

That is the text of my original statement on AG. I should add that I have NOT and NEVER would 'encourage' anyone to hack Forum IV - just the reverse, in fact. Neither have any other ex-premies I know, and I find that innuendo very disturbing. (Paradise forums are very easily hacked, by the way - and if this is becoming a real problem, the Forum V software is ready and waiting for the FA's to take over.)

I think this forum is very important to many people - including the people who haven't found it yet. I wouldn't have put so much work into this forum if I didn't feel that way. My decision to leave is a personal decision - I hope people can respect that. Also, I'd rather not be discussed on this forum when I'm not here if at all possible.

Take care, all of you, and have a happy New Year!
Thanks & so long -
Katie

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Date: Thurs, Dec 30, 1999 at 01:30:26 (EST)
From: Carol of OR
Email: rbruce@teleport.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: My post from AG (and goodbye)
Message:
Hi Katie. I'm just back a short while to check in and share about Miles' recent death. I see that much of the same stuff that we often argued about together to Jim is still going on. I agree with your stance. I think it is healthier not to participate if it makes you feel bad. I also do not harbor anger and resentment toward premies. Arguing is futile. Take care of yourself and e-mail me occasionally! Carol
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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 08:50:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Enjoy, Katie
Message:
Katie,

I know that a lot of good things are happening in your life, and I'm really glad for you. For what it's worth, I've always felt your perspective was legitimate, helpful and insightful, and you expressed it with a lot of compassion and clarity. But in any event it was your viewpoint and perspective and you are entitled to it, no matter how much someone might disagree with you.

I've taken off months at a time from the forum and found that you can return with new perspectives. The issues don't really change here, it's the people who participate that change, which is what I think life is all about.

All the best of luck to you. And I just wanted to add:

YOU GO, GIRL!

Joe

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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 01:21:08 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: My post from AG (and goodbye)
Message:
However, there are premies on Forum IV that I'm not going to try to convince not to follow Maharaji. I don't think it's a good thing to do, but IMHO, and I have always said this, there are far WORSE things that people can do. And thus I really do not care that much whether Maharaji stays in business or not.

I agree. It is pointless to think that some of these people will ever leave Maharaji. Why bother? However, when they post their satsang messages it is a good opportunity to openly examine cult thinking for the ultimate purpose of hopefully having people who have yet to fall into Maharaji's trap become tomorrow's victims that damage their lives and will need help getting out. There's plenty to say about preventative medicine. Unfortunately, tearing up the premie cult-think can sometimes be an ugly process. And how I wish that someone had done that for me years ago. Maybe I might have gotten out sooner and avoided so much damage to my life.

I have NOT and NEVER would 'encourage' anyone to hack Forum IV - just the reverse, in fact. Neither have any other ex-premies I know, and I find that innuendo very disturbing. (Paradise forums are very easily hacked, by the way - and if this is becoming a real problem, the Forum V software is ready and waiting for the FA's to take over.)

Of course you have not encouraged any of the premies you know to hack Forum IV. However, you have your head very deep in the sand if you think that your premie friend Cerberus is not playing little JavaScript games and other buffer overload games here and on the other forum. Do you think that for just one minute the former webmaster of Forum III would allow such activity? Sorry to be so cruel, but there is a major inconsistency in your post.

I sincerely believe that if there was a way that Cerberus could damage my machine and every other ex-premies' machines with JavaScript he would. And if Cerby could damage Paradise to put a halt to this forum he would do that too. This is serious and ugly business. It might even be against the law in most countries.

And Catweasel! What kind of friends are those who will not disclose their gender?

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 23:45:01 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: My post from AG (and goodbye)
Message:
Greetings and Happy Winter Solstice to all.
I confess, I haven't followed the discussions here lately. I try to stay in Hell where I belong. For me, reading the threads on the Forum, without posting much, was enough to deprogram me from 20+ years of the cult. It worked because I was able to recognize that I had been duped and to hear others express the doubts I'd been suppressing for so long.
But leaving Maharaji didn't stop me from being spiritual. At one point a couple of years ago, I became severely depressed trying to implement my understanding of Jim Heller's philosophy. It doesn't work for me. I have to immerse myself in my experience of soul frequently. Otherwise I become suicidal.
Perhaps I'm weak-minded; too much acid in the 60's. Too much meditation in the 70's. Too many kids. Whatever, the cause, I would rather experience love and understanding than bickering. I prefer the 'Ah ha' realizations of an old Deadhead to mental gymnastics and semantic exercises. I actually had lots of 'Ah ha's' when I first found Forum. It was as though I'd been blocked mentally for so many years, and freedom tasted sweet.
Katie, I appreciate your friendship and caring and wish you all the best for the coming year.
With love,
Ellen
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 22:01:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Nothing personal but I think this is a GOOD thing
Message:
There are some factual errors in Jim's statement - for example, I DO care if people follow Maharaji or not IF following him is doing bad things to them. I cannot be more specific here, although I am sure that statement could be torn apart and dissected in a number of negative ways.

Yes, Katie, your statement can certainly be 'torn apart and dissected'. Another way of describing that, however, might be 'looked at carefully'. Too bad you were always so resistant. I think it's ludicrous to suggest that following a cult leader could ever be anything BUT bad for someone. More than once I tried to debate that point with you but, as best I recall, you weren't willing. It might have helped you see past what I think are obvious blindspots in your thinking.

For example, when you say something like this:

I don't have what appears to be the requisite anger towards premies and I don't even have very much anger towards Maharaji - I never did. I have said over and over on the forum that my experience with DLM wasn't that bad. It wasn't GOOD, but it was better than where I came from, that's for sure. I will always appreciate the kindness of some of the premies I met when I first began to follow M. I was only 16 and desperately needed acceptance and caring, and those particular premies provided it. Despite what some people might say, I believe that those people were honestly loving and caring people, and I wish them well.

I'm left scratching my head, asking why in the world you never, ever 'got it'. Katie, it isn't a matter of anger at premies, ultimately. They're just dupes. It's anger at a false Lord of the Universe who cost most of us lots of everything. You don't have much anger towards Maharaji? Fine. How bland.

And is it rude for me to say as much to you? Hardly. On AG the other day you suggested to me that you've moved on from whatever anger you did have and now just find Maharaji boring. You also said that you hoped I, too, would one day grow to feel this way. Katie, if everyone felt like you did no one would be doing this, now would they? No one would confront Maharaji or premies. No one would bother to seek out and disseminate the truth about the man and his cult which truth, you know, has been extremely helpful for people and detrimental to the cult itself. No, I'm glad that I can keep caring about this effort for now. I'm not sure how I'd feel about myself if I just threw my hands in the air and said, as you have, 'Maharaji's BORING' and simply walked away. I hope I never 'evolve' to your level of understanding. Instead, I have a very simple, concrete ambition: to throw a serious wrench into this exploitative dream machine.

That is the text of my original statement on AG. I should add that I have NOT and NEVER would 'encourage' anyone to hack Forum IV - just the reverse, in fact. Neither have any other ex-premies I know, and I find that innuendo very disturbing. (Paradise forums are very easily hacked, by the way - and if this is becoming a real problem, the Forum V software is ready and waiting for the FA's to take over.)

See, this is the chronic frustration I always felt over you. OF COURSE you don't support hacking or flaming the forum. As if. Buuutttt, at the same time, you're chummy with those that do and I can't help but think that really undermines what other exes have to say over here. Really, I think you're so caught up in having people like you (something you're quite good at, I should add) that you still can't see what's missing in this statement:

As regards premies on the forum: as long as premies are allowed on the forum, I think they should be treated with respect - unless they're a total flamer or spammer who is saying nothing (and then they usually get blocked)... Every time I have talked to Catweasel like he (or she?) is a human being, he's responded in kind, and I appreciate that. You can still disagree with people - even vehemently disagree with people - and treat them with respect.

to which you add:

I stand by that statement. I don't think there is anything wrong with saying it. It's my OPINION and I certainly don't expect other people to share it.

What's wrong with this sentiment? I'll tell you what's wrong with it. It completely avoids the fact that that same Cat who you might coax a few civil comments out of is simultaneously spraying his vulgar cult spew over all the other exes! Really, how offensive for you to think you can teach us, however gently, to get along with everyone when you avoid the only issues -- hot and contentious as can be -- that bring us face-to-face with premies in the first place. Katie, I don't need someone teaching me how to get along with people. I don't care what you or anyone thinks here. I can do that just fine when getting along is what's called for. It's not the secret recipe here and I think it actually undermines the efforts of exes who do confront premie bullshit here to have someone so willing to befriend the enemy.

And premies do indeed present an enemy, hostile position. Remember when your 'friend' Mili tried to get our newsgroup cancelled? Do you actually think that any of these guys would hesitate a moment in muzzling us entirely if they could? This is war in a way. It's a war of ideas.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 23:32:30 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Nothing personal but I think this is a GOOD thing
Message:
Don't forget her years helping to give you a soapbox.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 23:43:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: That's a joke, Run -- but thanks anyway
Message:
Run,

Why don't you just cool it for once? I really don't want to talk with you. No one wants to read it and I've long given up any hope of seeing eye-to-eye with you on anything. So what's the point? None as far as I can see.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:58:45 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: bye Katie
Message:
I hope we see you on some forum or another, once in awhile.

I know you as a person who is incapable of being unkind (maybe you should work it on it, dunno how that works).
Thanks for all your hard work. I don't think we would be here without you. If the whole thing blows, the part you played had to have done some good.

Talk to ya

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:57:41 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: My post from AG (and goodbye)
Message:
Hi Katie,
You have put in a lot of effort and help into the forum and
the website and have always reached out to those that
staggered in here.
You had hope for the seeming hopeless and always seemed to
have that 'seasonal-ie. christmas time attitude.'
You know, peace on earth good will to all,
except you did have the good sense to recognise that
tyrants and corrupted types should be fought and
exposed.
Your finding Brian is reason enough to have landed in
the forum right?:)

Lets email and meet in the x's only site.
we can make that the fun place ok?

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 17:47:09 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: My post from AG (and goodbye)
Message:
Katie, I always enjoyed your posts myself. You've been very constructive, sincere and seem pretty even-tempered and fair to me. I am sorry if your going is partly because of the way you are treated here. That is a shame for sure. Pop in and say hi sometime..I often get bored with the rhetoric here until a post appears that I can relate to. I just take it or leave it now. I often don't look in here for a while. It is, I am sure a good idea to get on with one's life and not to waste too much time on the Net unless you're really getting something out of it.
Have a happy New Year too!
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 16:11:16 (EST)
From: RT
Email: omm
To: Katie
Subject: Re: My (and goodbye)
Message:
Katie,

Buy buy good lady some y3k stuff and here's a whole wheat toast to the new Jam we will all be in. I injoyed your e-female-friendship and bid you a petered fonda farewell for you and hubby...words cannot express...choke...oh I think I will go medicake..Viagra Chocolate Sponge!

RT in a wacky mood on purpose to make you smilie..or something close.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 16:04:25 (EST)
From: ATB
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: My post from AG (and goodbye)
Message:
A wise decision Katie, although I will miss your compassion. The grief you feel at leaving is an indication of how this forum is just the kind of trap so many here pride themselves on having avoided. As this unfolds, I believe the wise ones will pull out while the others will be 'bound here by their hate'. They will have no choice but to stay in until the bitter end when the fruit of their hatred will come to bear, as it always does. I am somewhat fatalistic when I say the die is cast.

May you be happy more than not.

All the best

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:21:55 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: ATB
Subject: Re: My post from AG (and goodbye)
Message:
Hi there A,
It just doesnt seem to ever really be a one way or another
deal here or anywhere else. Although people like to
try and force that to happen. example, when prem rawat
tried his darndest to force us into the line he made.

I was mentioning that in reference to your idea that
the forum participants 'you believe' will go one
way or another. One way for the 'wise' and one way
for those 'bound here by thier hate'.
It isnt really exactly like that here.:)b

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:19:12 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: My post from AG (and goodbye)
Message:
Katie, your euphoric recall is kickin in girl.

That is not a criticism. Obviously since I'm here.
It's hard to get off this thing. There are many reasons. One, the fond memories, the fact that for me this place was almost a lifesaver 2 years ago.
Then there is just the habit.
And the fact that M is still out there doing his thing.
You'd think he'd be a candidate for early retirement no? I mean, I'm taking it with far less monetary compensation.
Just giving you a hard time.
And I *do* agree about your PC comment.
Now,
get off here and prepare for our ritual.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:30:42 (EST)
From: SeleniePie again
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: and ps Katie
Message:
I do understand - I'd be posting too if they were still going on about me.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 15:55:26 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Katie
Subject: Sorry You Are Leaving but....
Message:
it's probably the best decision you'll make for the new year. It appears that some folks here need to learn the difference between arguments and verbal abuse. I wasn't happy to see you spoken about because I thought you had already said your good-byes.

I really will miss you. I don't know about all the arguments over in 'hell' because I don't go there. That place doesn't seem too healthy, at least for me. It's like primal therapy (which I'd never do). Everyone screaming at once, calling names, explicitly, too.

When all is said and done, I, for one will miss your balance in dealing with people here. It's too easy to forget that we are all people here coming through those cyber-thingees. Give yourself credit for not forgetting that.

Just be well, pat yourself on the back for reaching a point in your healing where you can't 'not care much about Maharaji,' etc.; that's a great place to be.

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 19:42:57 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Sorry To See You Go
Message:
Dear Katie:

I am sorry to see you go; I thought (and think) your posts were always balanced and considerate, but I certainly understand your decision. Good luck. Also, I hope your brother's doing well.

Take care
Monmot

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:01:52 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Andy Gave me Satsang!
Message:
Hi Everyone,

As those of you who have gotten to know me, I really cannot stand to have premies like 'Andrew Gerrard' come in here and give satsang.

He was resonding to my post under the 'Maharaj Ji's Tale' thread, his post 'I'll pray for you'

Andy's under the delusion that we are all lost souls because we left the Hamster and has promoted himself to 'saver of the exes' on this forum. That's fine, but I believe that satsanga should be deleted.

What I mean by satsang is that old crappy cult-speak about the experiences, blaa, blaa, blaa.
Haven't we all heard enough over the years. I certainly have had MY fill.

I don't know who this person is, but in my book, his post was satsang and I want it deleted. This is not a demand, merely a request of the forum administrator.

On another note, I find it hilarious that Andy thinks we are all unhappy. LOLOLOL

I feel very happy right now in my life. I can't tell everyone how helpful this forum has been for me. We're a wicked bunch aren't we? :-)))))))

Any exes out there agree with me? If you read my post to Andy, understand I realize I might have bated him, but I just got so sick of his druling, drab, indoctrinating, delusions--right in my face, I couldn't resist. Jim, you understand, don't you?

Be well, everyone
Love, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 18:45:03 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: Andy Gave me Satsang!
Message:
Cynthia, good show, but I think you are missing the point. If premies come on this forum and tell lie-songs (aka satsang), then the silliness of their cult belief system comes thru loud and clear for all to see (including lurkers). If you successfully challenge their lie-song (and who couldn't!), they display their silliness even more!

I ENCOURAGE premies to come here and try to save us poor lost souls (aka bags-o-molecules). The lies sound even sillier the second time around, don't you agree?

When I posted here on a regular basis, a premie came on the forum and said he/she/it was very close to liberation..... very close. Wellllllllll?????????? I haven't seen anything from that enlightened soul since. Not surprising, since that individual was immediately caught in the most outrageous of LIES! My ass has more light on it than this individual has ever seen :-)

Mike, the new-age recycled and environmentally-sound spitoon usin' redneck :-)

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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 01:31:32 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Andy Gave me Satsang!
Message:
To Cynthia:

With your propensity to simply delete premie satsang post I doubt that you'll be appointed webmaster in the near future. However, I agree with you all the way. As soon as I see the post is satsang my eyes glaze over and I start hearing a ringing sound. I eventually come out of the trance and swear that I won't let it happen again. Just kidding. It's not that bad, but I sure can't read that stuff. Jean-Michel's got all that good Indian Hindu stuff on his site, but I can't stand it.

Hey, Mike, you going out for New Years in your ghilly?

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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 10:33:45 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Andy Gave me Satsang!
Message:
Roger, howdy!

Nope, the ghillies are retired - except when I hunt elk.... he he he. Speaking of which, 4 days of stalking and I got mine..... It was tough going and I slept in the woods at various places while following the herd. The unit I drew was very, very rough country. Anyway, the freezer is now packed! No, I'm not worried about Y2K electrical power loss spoiling anything... he he he. I've got a 5KW generator that I use at the cabin to charge batteries (for use at night) and run stuff during the day when needed. Mind you, I don't think there is going to be anything wrong with the power, but I didn't want to chance spoiling 600 lbs of meat from a 'short term' power outage. Anywho, off topic.... just thought I would say hi :-)

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 19:46:39 (EST)
From: I be damned
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: that was me
Message:
I said I have almost realized knowledge or I was about to, time got away from me but you just wait I think Y2K is it. And I have not left.

You really didn't take this seriously did you? If yes you are living in a dream world.

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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 10:25:18 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: I be damned
Subject: Re: that was me
Message:
Nope, I'm a real-worlder with my eyes open and looking 'outside.' That's where the REAL action is!
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:07:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: It's all fine so long as you have respect (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:32:39 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: All
Subject: I'd have told him to get stuffed
Message:
Katie and anyone else. This is a free forum. Anyone and everyone is welcome to post here. If someone told me I didn't belong here, I'd tell them to go take a long walk off a short pier.

Sorry but I'm behind current events here since I've not been reading much but I think it's quite frankly ridiculous to take any notice of certain criticisms that have been bandied about here.

Anyone's style or views are their own and nobody else can dictate if they fit in here or not. I think I fit in here less than most but I do post here when the spirit moves me. That's just tough if people don't agree with me.

I think that's the right attitude to take on this forum.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:39:19 (EST)
From: 'Jim'
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: I'd have told him to get stuffed
Message:
'Nothing even close to respect for Maharaji should be unchallenged here, as far as I can tell. This isn't about me, you or the next guy. It's about the truth, the simple truth.

So I guess what I want to say is that if exes don't feel comfortable here and it's because they just don't like the 'disrespect' premies enjoy here, I say that's too bad. Maybe they don't belong here. And that's what I told Katie. I know I'm never going to stop ridiculing bozo's like Chris for saying all the stupid things he does. If anyone's uncomfortable with that they can either change ths site so I can't do that (block me or make some sort of 'nice-nice' rule -- I sure wouldn't stick around in that event) or leave. That's how I see it.'

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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 03:11:31 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: 'Jim'
Subject: I've seen that browser before
Message:
This might mean absolutely nothing as we all know by know that browser or User-Agent means nothing, but that browser has been used by 'Who Knows'.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:42:48 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: 'Jim'
Subject: I didn't post the above but, well, I agree with all of it (go figure!)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:38:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: I absolutely agree, Dave
Message:
Oh you're so right, Dave. Couldn't be righter. That's why when Katie decided that she didn't belong here feeling as she does I applauded her insight. Katie doesn't belong here because, as I said, she doesn't want to see premies ridiculed. However, as we all know, this is, by necessity, a ridiculous place. The cult's ridiculous and anyone supporting it is too.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:49:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Here's how she put it
Message:
Katie wrote:

Yes, I have realized that I am not 'politically correct' enough for Forum IV. I hate to use that term, but that seems to be the problem. There seems to be a need for a unanimity of opinion and approach to both premies and Maharaji among the exes who post there - otherwise, as you say, it is divisive to the forum as it is now.

Frankly, Jim, although I care a lot about ex-premies and about premies who are hurting, I think that Maharaji himself is BORING - he is just a guy, and not a very interesting guy at that. I honestly hope that all the ex-premies can come to feel this way someday (if they want to, of course) - it certainly negates any emotional impact he might have over a person. And, Jim, I hope YOU can come to feel that way someday too.

The 'unanimity of opinion and approach' she's complaining about is all about frank, no-holds barred examination and confrontation of the cult. She's not into it and there you go. No apologies.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:37:47 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Here's how she put it
Message:
Yeah, well now. What about me? I mean I do still love Maharaji and long for his darshan and it's only because he's stopped giving it that I'm so against him.

I long for the days of darshan lines, of satsang, service and meditation and for all of us to be a family again, one in the spirit with Maharaji at the helm, steering the boat through the rocks of this world and how I remember so fondly those weekend satsang retreats where we could bathe in the nectar of satsang and truth for a whole blessed two days and forget about this world.

I think heaven would be a two day weekend satsang with an all night meditation in between and FULL Arti in Hindi at 5 am on the Sunday morning. I believe that if you go to India these days, you can get all that.

So there you are, my true colours. I'm only pretending to be an ex.

I disagree with Katie's term about being 'not politically correct', because I don't think there is any such thing here. Certainly the premies don't think so.

In fact I see this forum as the original ANYTHING GOES forum.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 12:19:11 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Here's how she put it
Message:
I hated darshan. Tried to psyche myself into it every time.
And always failed only to think it was MY fault, that I was missing some vital essence.
Or I was at times downright scared. He always looked so disgusted as I groveled over his tootsies. It's easier being a hooker. oops I didn't say that.
Growing up Catholic was bad enough.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 15:45:47 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Selene
Subject: Re: Here's how she put it
Message:
I had a lot of the same feelings, Selene. Towards the end darshan just became exceedingly boring, plus it was a little exhausting trying to avoid my thoughts about what a greasy, shifty-eyed lump Maharaji looked like when I got near him. Also, he just looked so bored and put out that he had to sit there while us pieces of dust filed by. But I tried to have 'faith' and kiss his foot anyway. Wasn't a whole bunch of karma supposed to burn up in that instant?
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 18:49:52 (EST)
From: His-left-foot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Poof......
Message:
Thou hast no karma, JW..... :-)
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:16:20 (EST)
From: Whatever happened to
Email: None
To: All
Subject: One Foundation
Message:
Just saw Lindsay Field and Joe Creighton playing in a concert in Dili for the Interfet forces in East Timor
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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 02:24:02 (EST)
From: Barry McKenzie
Email: None
To: Whatever happened to
Subject: Re: One Foundation
Message:
As far as I know, Jeff Bridgeford is a shepherd in New Zealand, Kim became a high-priced hooker in Melbourne, Fuzzby is some kind of sex therapist in California, Joe and Lindsay are rooming together and Tim Hain has a dreadlock hair salon in London.

That's the last I heard.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 16:07:21 (EST)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Whatever happened to
Subject: It collapsed(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:35:05 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Whatever happened to
Subject: no real Foundation
Message:
what were the lyrics like?
Joe Creighton was left way out on alimb like the rest of
us.
In 1979 or 80, he and the guitarist left one foundation
because they were given the choice of either joining
the ashram forever period or leaving one foundation.
They left one foundation.
guilt and the programming drove them nuts for a while
and they released a tape (the guitarist and Joe the bassist)
and it was songs like 'help me maharaji' and such cult
nonsense. Joe asked m to let him back in one foundation
and he caved in about the ashram and m said 'well, we need
another good male singer' as his way of approving Joe's
return.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:27:59 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: bb
Subject: Kim has been Upstaged by Daya
Message:
Hi All,

As far as I know, Kim is still around and sometimes when Daya is singing onstage, their backup vocals are done backstage.

Quite a humiliating thing for Kim, I would think. She probably chalks it up to LILA or learning a lesson about humility. I was always very jealous of Kim, being a singer and all.

There new stuff is so boring.........Zzzzzzzzzz

Bye,

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:35:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: That was so obvious from the video event I saw
Message:
Gail sent me a video event or two and one had Daya sighing, whimpering and breathing heavy for her father. Kim wasn't very good about hiding her feelings. Mind you, she's never really been one to brighten a room as far as I can recall. More of a Noble Sufferer than a Happy Clapper.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 07:00:48 (EST)
From: CBI
Email: None
To: All the best
Subject: Sincerity & innocence
Message:
Thank you for your reply.
Firstly, I have never experienced paranoia from a group of people as intensely as I have from devotees of Mahraji.
The rule you speak of 'if you ask with sincerity and innocence, your innocence will protect you from danger'. This is not a law of the universe. Every day innocent, sincere people leave themselves vulnerable to those who abuse their trust. If that were not the case, there would be no need for this site. Protection is not guaranteed.
I have seen all that I want to of the other side.
Premies may feel they have found freedom but from the outside, it seems more like a cage.
Lastly, JW's post was balanced.
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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 00:37:47 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: CBI
Subject: Re: Sincerity & innocence
Message:
That is sad. The analogy about the bird in the cage. Premies listen & feel that they are the ones freed from the cage but in fact as you say it's like they become caged...Ironic & sad.

Jack

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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 15:45:51 (EST)
From: ATB
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: You are as free as you feel Jack
Message:
If your heart can't soar with the set of wings you have then it's better to get out and find a set that will take you to the heights it wants to fly. And neither CBI nor anybody else has anything to say about how high another person flies. Neither do they know the nature of the cage from where they were freed. I'll leave yours to you and CBI to hers, and why don't you leave premies to theirs. Deal?

All the best.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 14:50:04 (EST)
From: All the best
Email: None
To: CBI
Subject: Re: Sincerity & innocence
Message:
Whatever works for you CBI. As for sincerity and innocence being a protection, that law applies for people who want to learn something, about anything, and it only works if you trust in the protection it affords. For example if you approach another culture to learn about it, requires this approach. If you approach your friend's 'culture' with fear, you will not learn anything about it. If you don't care to learn about it then by default you don't care to pursue him as a significant person in your life. So I guess you've made your decision. Have a nice life.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:57:42 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: CBI
Subject: Very perceptive, CBI
Message:
CBI: Thanks for this post. You have summed up the whole gig in a few compelling words. The best line is: Premies may feel they have found freedom but from the outside, it seems more like a cage.

Very, very true.

Merry Christmas,
Marianne

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:09:29 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Malibu satistics
Message:
I've just seen this morning a child of an ex-premie who went to a video projection there a few weeks back (she was looking for some friends).

Believe it or not, there is an average attendance of about 10 persons watching videos, in some small room!

I guess Rawat's mission has been accomplished, everybody has realized knowledge, and he can retire!

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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 00:32:21 (EST)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Same Statistics
Message:
It's the same here. Ten to twelve turn up with delusions of grandure at being like the twelve disciples of Him whose birthday is coming up! More like the last motley crew hanging on for dear life to the life-boat.(And DEFINATELY NO (or maybe once in a very long while) new people come to Introductory Videos....it must be really disheartening one would have thought.)

Liz

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:42:06 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yeah, but how many premies can afford Malibu?
Message:
This is Malibu?

Ok, you got your super-duper rich premies, but they don't mingle with the common premies. Then you got your various (one or two or three) safe houses scattered throughout the area where common premies live like sardines for the priveledge of being close to the action and being called to do serve-us for de Master.

Speaking of retirement, Ramtha is cutting way back for next year. Seems the 35,000 year old warrior spirit channeled by former Tacoma housewife J.Z. Knight is getting tired of working almost daily imparting wisdom to devotees at up to $1000 a pop. She'll be cutting back to something like 3 days a week.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:25:52 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Malibu satistics
Message:
From my observations(through 1996), weekday attendance in the large communities runs about that number. Weekends seem to run about 3 or 4 times that amount-the Social premies come out, I guess!
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 04:15:31 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Moving forward
Message:
I was considering posting this under another thread to avoid the criticism that will be headed my way, but I'm a patriot. I believe in what the forum is. Sign my name as John Hanncock big and bold.

I'm reluctant to post this as I am hoping that this hole stupid thing will die out on it's own.

However, I am extremely annoyed at what is going on.

Let's start with Jim. Ok, Jim can be one tough hombre. So what! Ok, some of you or even many of you have been blasted by Jim. That's life on the Internet where there is a hot topic. Big deal. However, we should also thank Jim for having those extending (your choice as to read them) discussions with premies who come here with that stuff that many of us are trying to escape from. It slick and it's subtle, but it's still satsang. Those who post here or disrupt here would have no greater joy than converting anyone of us back to Maharaji or putting an end to what is said here.

Consider the possible motives of these people. Consider their beliefs. Sure, these people are human being just like any of us. But what are they trying to do?

Regardless of Jim, what do you believe? Do you want to see the forum disrupted? Do you want to see Maharaji go unchallenged? Do you want more innocent people to end up falling into the same trap that you/we were once in, believing that Maharaji was God and that you were only his puppet at best? Or a human excreta machine?

Sorry, I see it as real sick that Catweasel and the brilliant computer science student Cerberus can come to this forum and trash it as they are doing. Play their little games. Put some funky script code in the User-Agent field. Overload the input buffer. Impersonate legitmate posters.

Regardless of personal battles won or lost, you/we might be thankful to the participants of the forum for the effort that has and is put into saying something truthful in regards to Maharaji and his tight-fisted control of the truth as he wishes for people and his premies to believe. Consider that the forum and the associated webpages may have helped set some people free from the clutches of Maharaji and his henchmen.

So, do we really want to give shelter to these disrupters who from day one have had no intelligible content in their discussions except on the topic of drinking, sex, and genital warts? These clowns, puppets of Maharaji are here to disrupt, to silence and negate the message of truth, which is that Maharaji is a fraud and a greedy one at that.

It's a great thing that everyone can be friends with people who share different views on a subject as important as, say, religion, which Maharaji certainly is. Fine and dandy. It's better than a goddamn holy war and bombings. However, I regard the encouragement of their cowardly activities as traitorous to the cause that many of us are very much concerned with. Hey, if you don't care about it that's ok. Fine. However, I'm hoping that the objectives and goals of the forum can be maintained regardless of the personal differences. For me the goals and objectives of the forum are:

  1. Recovery (although seeking professional help is probably more appropriate), sharing and caring
  2. Helping others escape Maharaji if they so desire
  3. Helping innocent people from getting involved with Maharaji in the first place
  4. Bringing some justice to the scam and crimes that Maharaji perpetuates

Actually, I think that helping innocent people avoid Maharaji is probably the most important thing we can do here because ultimately the number of victims is be inversely related. The more people we can keep from getting involved in his cult means fewer victims. If helping others avoid Maharaji or recover from Maharaji is in the least bit important to you then you might consider the possible effects of encouraging these disrupters who actively seek to undermine the objectives and effectiveness of the forum.

Hey, it's not like this is some goddamn joke or some stupid little club where we have to pretend to like each other. Honestly, can anyone provide an example of one dynamic situation that includes people where everything was hunky-dory? Not a chance.

Finally, some of us might personally remember involvement in Maharaji's cult often has serious and devasting effects on people's lives, up to and including suicide. Not very funny when you think about it, is it?

Party on!

P.S. And now Shp has joined the party in Hell. It's like Hell has been taken over by premies. Maybe the Rapper and Quasi-Premie will drop in soon if they aren't there already. Super, just super. Beautiful. Splendid. Absolutely marvelous. Perfect in every way. Maharaji must be pleased by all of this. And don't fool yourselves if you think that THEY are not monitoring this. (Hey, you there! Having fun?)

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 22:30:07 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Moving forward
Message:
Thanks. I tried the same thing a week ago. And thank you so much for responding to me.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 14:43:29 (EST)
From: Thine Enemy
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Moving round in circles
Message:
Roger,

Your entire post, although understandable in one sense, lacks understanding.

Putting aside the whole issue of Jim, which is a situation most will admit he has brought upon himself entirely, it is nevertheless irrelevent in the light of your main thrust. That Jim is intelligent and capably literate only serves to strengthen my view that his vicious and arrogant diatribes are inexcusible. Someone with his abilities ought to be able to make his point in a less antagonistic fashion. However, that is just my view, and this is not the United Nations conference room, thank God.

What strikes me as being pure shortsightedness on your part, is the fact that you fail to recognize the simple fact that this entire 'conflict' is inevitable and irresolvable.

It has its roots at the very core of our differences - that you and your peers consider Maharaji to be a fraud and Knowledge to be hocum, and that me and mine enjoy a totally polarised view, that he is a sincere teacher offering a genuine experience.

Therein lies the foundation for conflict, with this Forum as the bloodless battleground.

Roger, you act and talk like a General: you speak of patriotism, loyalty, traitorous activities and the like. If you wish to consider this a war, so be it, in a sense I suppose it is.

But were you to embrace the spirit of your assumed role more fully, you would find it easier to accept the consequences of the situation we find ourselves in. You are openly and aggresively attacking your opponent - why, then, are you surprised, nay, outraged, when people take up the opposing banner and retaliate?

You may see yourselves as champions of the truth and the beguiled, but that is true only from your perspective. I am not alone, I think, in viewing your truth as completely and utterly wrong.

So what do you want? A Geneva Convention ruling to lay down the accepted parameters of conduct? Well in the absence of such auspicious intervention, I'm afraid you'll just have to come to terms with things as they are. There are no rules, unless you wish to agree on some?

The odds are stacked in your favor, of course. You have the Forum password and can control entry, delete posts (including this one, I suspect, very shortly) and always have the option of password protection, so you really have little to worry about in the long term.

So far as Anything Goes forum is concerned, I believe you are overextending your 'authority' there. Dave has set minimal guidleines which are adherred to by premies and ex's, and it is his dime, so to speak, so what gives you the right to criticise the content there? To accuse ex's there of 'fraternizing' with the enemy is simply pompous, as I'm sure they will let you know in due course.

Have a nice day.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:14:56 (EST)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Thine Enemy
Subject: Great post
Message:
Another preaching idiot without the manners to post under a constant alias.

You sanctimonious prick. You fail to understand something too. This forum was established by people who don't like Maharaji, what he does or has to say and people like you. I'll say that again so even you will understand. WE DON'T LIKE YOU. This is not a place for meaningful, fruitful discussion or the minutiae of philosophical debate. It's for exposing scumbags like you for what you are; proselytising freaks with nothing better to do or say apart from commenting on the posts and personalities of ex-premies. Look at the sign at the top of the page, dumbo. The EX-PREMIE Forum, geddit, the EX-PREMIE Forum. Not The PREMIE Forum, not the ARTI CHORAL SOCIETY, not the TRAY SWINGERS SINGERS. For people who were once into what you're into now. Who know a great deal about what you're into now. Who probably know more about what you're into now than you do. Who've been round the block a few times. They're not fools. They decided they didn't like the way toe-rags like you were treating them and exited the cult mucho rapido and actually prefer their lives now. But worry not because there will always be someone like you to put us right and to show us the error of our ways; just like in yesteryear. There's NOTHING for you here. Fuck off. You hang around here because you don't like anybody slagging Maharaji off and you love correcting the words and lives of others. Got to get them sheep back in the pen. You must know by now Maharaji disapproves of premies viewing or posting here. It's OK for me. I have the classification EX-PREMIE. You are classified PREMIE. Comprendez. I'll say all that again too. YOU MUST KNOW BY NOW MAHARAJI DISAPPROVES OF PREMIES VIEWING OR POSTING ON THIS SITE. Have you even thought about that? Have you even once considered it? WELL, HAVE YOU. Obviously not, otherwise you wouldn't do it. So you can't even obey the one you claim to be obeying. Talk about schizoid.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:04:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Alright, Coach!!
Message:
Coach,

Nice to hear the voice of the heart for a change. You know, a little clarity and understanding? Dialoging with premies is not normal human discourse. At a very minimum, all the premies I've ever encountered are evasive. That itself exhausts their credibility and respectability. Add the fact that they're really just guests here, guests who offer no reciprocal opportunity to speak out to any of us on their own cult web sites (even CD simply deletes anti-M posts if anyone bothers to visit his site -- the one which David set up for him in the first place and handed over in some Britishy-kind of moment) and they're behaviour here is appalling. And it's not at all a matter of who's swearing. That's superficial and says nothing but that someone's angry.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:43:24 (EST)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Alright, Coach!!
Message:
Jim,

One thing football taught me was to let it rip. The thing that gets me is that premies really think that we haven't experienced what they're into. Like we were never really there.
Or if we were then we just happened to be looking the other way or just happened to somehow get it all totally wrong. This is a bit incoherent.

brain deteriorating fast, brandy intake high,

out

Coach

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 22:13:25 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Well that's it, isn't it?
Message:
Sure. I know it's all bullshit but, for what it's worth, there was a time when I was quite proud of my enthusiasm for meditation and how determined I was to go for broke. That spirit waned in later years but I lived in it daily for at least a couple. And, not surprisingly, I thought that I was having some amazing experiences of God. But now, however, any premie I talk to, whether I knew them or not back then, sooner or later resorts to accusing me of never doing much more than dabbling in the surface waters while they dove deep. Fuck that shit!
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 22:40:02 (EST)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: indeed, that's it for tonight.
Message:
The question of scale with rgard to teh old med is afunny one. The infinite, infinitly small or big. If samll your shallow waters
would be more than adequete. The shallows, I like it.

scuse me while i fall over, nighty night.

Coach

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:39:37 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Thanks, Coach!
Message:
We've got it good now with a Coach to guide us!

Liked the fire of your tone! Somewhere that coward who posts with a bogus name using the Anonymizer proxy server to absolutely hide his identity was saying that we should expect retaliation here at this bloodless battlefield.

Yeah, I'd say them coming over here for a hack ambush with their User-Agents modified and/or using a proxy server qualifies as a cowardly act of cyber terrorism. They run back to Hell and boast of their righteous anger and their successful efforts to put us in our places.

Yes, they are the visible representatives of Maharaji. Although, I suspect that reasonable premies might be taking Maharaji's advice and don't participate.

I would like to say having recently exited from the cult that not all premies are bad people. I would say that a lot of premies are some of the nicest people around. It might not be the best idea to discuss Maharaji with them, but they are decent human beings.

I'm not sure that I care for these characters with their loud swaggering and obnoxious crowing.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:17:38 (EST)
From: Coach
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Hup, one two, hup.....
Message:
I must confess to not having coached for many years. If at all.

Now, where's that old Gatling gun.

Coach

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:37:18 (EST)
From: Thine Enemy
Email: None
To: Coach
Subject: Great post
Message:
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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 00:47:17 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Thine Enemy
Subject: More cyber-terrorism from Cerberus!
Message:
They don't like what we say and, therefore, resort to a mild form of cyber-terrorism. I don't know what his JavaScript does because I've put www.paradise-web.com into my browsers restricted sites and have disabled anything beyond normal html.

I'm sure that if Cerberus could he would damage my machine and yours in the process.

They are nothing but cowards trying to stop us getting the message out that Maharaji is a fraud.

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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 01:33:56 (EST)
From: Thine Enemy
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: More irrational bleating from Roger
Message:
You obviously put your brain in a restricted area, too.

View the source, Roger, you'll see there is no script in any of these posts other than native Paradise stuff. What little gags might have been played by others are also viewable in the same method, and can be seen by anyone with the knowledge you profess to have as being harmless.

Seems like you're trying to spread your own paranoia to your friends here. Nice work, mate.

BTW got to watch that Proxomitron, it'll screw up your system faster than any script I could dream up. We're talking kernel faults up the yin yang.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 19:03:22 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Thine Enemy
Subject: Re: Moving round in circles
Message:
TE, I though there were no 'enemies' in your namby-pamby, peter-pan-never-grow-up, lion-kissing-the-lamb (yecchhh!), bambi-talks mindscape world that you have surrounded yourself in. Have I missed something since my departure from the feet of the hamster?
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:40:32 (EST)
From: Thine Enemy
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Re: Moving round in circles
Message:
Obviously.
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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 00:49:56 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Thine Enemy
Subject: more cyber-terrorisn from our friend Cerby (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 16:01:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia!@madriver.com
To: Thine Enemy
Subject: HAVE A NICE DAY??? AFTER THAT??(NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 08:36:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: A different kind of wheat and chaff
Message:
Roger,

I'm with you on everything and just want to add a few things. I am not, never have been and never will be the issue here. Never. How could I be? God, I was a rank and file ashram premie for eight years, one of the first posters here, a fairly vociferous one at at that ever since, and that's about it. Contrary to what some idiots have said, I neither crave nor try to accumulate 'power' here. Power? What a fucking joke that is! I'm here for the information, to spread the good word about Maharaji and to get a few cheap thrills watching current followers squirm under the weight of history. Why is that fun? Perhaps because I'm angry with premies for supporting Maharaji when there's such overwhelming evidence against him. Yeah, that angers me.

In almost all cases where someone's tried to make me the issue here it's been a premie throwing out red herrings. I mean what could be more transparent? I corner someone in an argument (and cornering premies is, as we all know, child's play. Anyone can do it. It takes no skill, no training but just an urge to try to squeeze a little rational discussion out of one of them. Obviously.) -- so, I corner someone and they say some very stupid things about my being a 'lawyer' or an 'asshole' or any of the other things that are completely irrelevant but which at least give them something to say other than admit they're wrong. God, that's so damned obvious!

So of course premies whine about how 'tough' and 'ruthless' such confrontation is. They say all sorts of dumb things. They call my tone 'oppressive'. They say we're in a 'cult' of our own.... whatever!

Anyway, we can expect such spineless ignorance from them that, for now at least, make their stand with the guru. I mean, what else could they do?

But then to see exes like the crew over in hell cozying up with these idiots. Yeah, I'd have to say that's simply immoral. If there's any righteousness at all in trying to get the truth out about Maharaji then what could that say about anyone interferring with that effort? And what could that say about anyone that encourages them?

A long-time poster, Katie, recently signed off the forum after being ridiculed for supporting Catweasel in a post over in Hell. Of course there was more to it than that but that did appear to be the straw that broke the camels' back so to speak. Well, this fellow Cat and his buddy Cerebus are even now trying to find new ways to flame, spam, hack and fuck with this forum. If you don't believe me go look for yourself. And who's buddying up with these jerks over there? Hey, go look for yourself. It strikes me as no coincidence that there are two kinds of exes taking that tack: those who really have no interest in confronting Maharaji and those who bear some sort of personal resentment against someone else here, maybe me, maybe Barney, there could be others, who are just bitter and looking for someone to agree with them that I'm such an 'asshole' or something.

Anyway, I say it's unfortunate that not everyone's going to feel perfectly at home here but this is, after all, where the unqualified truth -- as much as we can get it -- gets spoken about Maharaji. There's no compromise in that and there's no 'tyranny' in that either. Katie had long said that she herself wasn't interested in deterring anyone from following Maharaji if they thought it made them happy. To that end she was uncomfortable seeing premies 'mercilessly' ridiculed here without end. She wanted to see everyone as her friend and I can't see how she'd ever deny that. That was her objective.

Well, know what? I think this site is really failing to live up to its potential if premies ever felt comfortable here! I mean, as if? This is the mind's help line, isn't it? Technical support for people trying to get their doubts working properly? Nothing even close to respect for Maharaji should be unchallenged here, as far as I can tell. This isn't about me, you or the next guy. It's about the truth, the simple truth.

So I guess what I want to say is that if exes don't feel comfortable here and it's because they just don't like the 'disrespect' premies enjoy here, I say that's too bad. Maybe they don't belong here. And that's what I told Katie. I know I'm never going to stop ridiculing bozo's like Chris for saying all the stupid things he does. If anyone's uncomfortable with that they can either change ths site so I can't do that (block me or make some sort of 'nice-nice' rule -- I sure wouldn't stick around in that event) or leave. That's how I see it.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:25:50 (EST)
From: from the cheap seats
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Morals
Message:
Anyway, we can expect such spineless ignorance from them that, for now at least, make
their stand with the guru. I mean, what else could they do?

But then to see exes like the crew over in hell cozying up with these idiots. Yeah, I'd have to
say that's simply immoral. If there's any righteousness at all in trying to get the truth out
about Maharaji then what could that say about anyone interferring with that effort? And what
could that say about anyone that encourages them?

Immoral?

My god Jim, you are calling someone or anyone in your so called group, immoral.

You make a lot of sense, but don't you know you can negate everything you say with your so called morals? I know your mind is working a thousand miles per second to say something clever, but listen to yourself. Who made you chief bottle washer? Defender of the faith?

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:31:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: from the cheap seats
Subject: What's wrong with talking about morals?
Message:
Sorry whoever-the-fuck-you-are,

I can talk about morals as much as the next guy. We've all got them to some extent and I can talk about them.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 12:17:00 (EST)
From: whoever-the-fuck-I-am
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: immoral
Message:
Jeesh (as they say)

there is nothing wrong in talking about morals, but calling a fuzzy bunny rabbit who agrees with most of what you write as immoral is a bit much.

Ok
A simi-fuzzy bunny rabbit.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:48:59 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Jim/Roger
Subject: Your Posts Should be ***BEST OF****
Message:
Dear Roger and Jim,

As you know, I don't go over to hell. It's just a bit over the top for me. And the black background actually scares me. Therefore, I guess I miss the real meat of personal differences between exes.

However, that said, I very much appreciate both of your approaches to premies who come here to give satsang and disrupt. A premie coming here is an oxymoron:-))

Yet they come. They refuse to answer questions, as you, Jim and Roger know very well. That pisses me off royally. As for Katie, well, I missed out on the Hell threads so I can't comment on her, except to say she was very nice to me and helped me get through my first few weeks.

Both of your posts were extraordinary. I think what bothers other exes about you Jim, is that you are a spitfire and sometimes the name calling is a bit too much. But that's you. I have no right to change you or even expect you to change. Isn't that the point here? We are all individuals who have found out that for a huge chunk of our lives we devoted ourselves to a narcissistic fraud and thief!

Roger, I loved your post, including your list of what this forum is for. As for what to do about hell--can't help you there, friend, I avoid it because I can't expose parts inside of me (who are very young) to that flavor of discussion.

I have been feeling better about FIV this past week or so. Since the brohaha with Joey blew over it actually seems peaceful and more respectful here. When I look and see a thread with Jim's name and a lot of FUCKS and ASSHOLE in the re: lines, I leave it alone because I know you're doing what you do best: challenge the premies who come here.

Jim, you may want to change your style a bit and ease up on the 'sudden attack mode' but that's up to you. Roger, I have no idea how to get Hell under control. But once in a while I 'peek' into Hell and just a glance of the threads tells me things are burning up.

Above all, I have come to think of this place as 'my place.' It's where I can talk to people who know that I've been betrayed beyond comprehension--not something I can discuss with someone who hasn't experienced it. In fact, my hubby questioned the necessity of my coming here, and if it's healthy for me. I couldn't explain it to him because he's never been engaged in a cult. So I told him 'that's it exactly it, you can't understand--ex-premies need to speak with eachother--we never could do it before.' We need to shout, argue, defend the truth, and ban satsang. We deserve better than disruption from idiots stuck in the muck of mahahaaa's world.

But I'm happy. Premies won't believe an ex-premie can be happy. I'm very unhappy about having to unbrainwash myself, but despite all that, life after rawat is very, very good.

Isn't that the point?

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:28:44 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks, Cynthia
Message:
Cynthia,

You are a most welcome addition to the forum. It's great to have you here. The forum can sometimes become an obsession, but so was Maharaji. I've acquired much insight here as to how twisted much of my thinking was, twisted with Maharaji's lame worldview or as JW coined, 'stunted philosophy.'

Seeing good people like you here is certainly one of the rewards of hanging out here.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 18:28:54 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Was God usually Indian?
Message:
from the diary of Rai
Sahib Munshi Ram

 

BOOKS ON SANT MAT IN GENERAL

The Holy Name- Miriam Bokser Caravella
In Search of the Way-Flora E. Wood
The Inner Voice- Colonel C.W. Sanders
Liberation of the Soul-J.Stanley White, Ph.D.
Message Divine-Shanti Sethi
Mystic Bible-Dr.Randolph Stone
The Mystic Philosophy of Sant Mat-Peter Fripp
Mysticism, The Spiritual Path, 2 volumes-Prof. Lekh Raj
Puri
The Path of the Masters-Dr. Julian P.Johnson
Radha Soami Teachings-Prof. Lekh Raj Puri
A Soul's Safari-Netta Pfeifer
Teachings of the Guru-Prof. Lekh Raj Puri
Yoga and the Bible-Joseph Leeming

MYSTICS OF THE EAST SERIES

Bulleh Shah-J. R. Puri and T.R. Sharigari
Dadu, The Compassionate Mystic-K. N. Upadhyaya, Ph.D.
Dariya Sahib, Saint ofBihar-K. N. Upadhyaya, Ph.D
Guru Nanak, His Mystic Teachings-J. R. Puri
Guru Ravidas, Life and Teachings-K. N. Upadhyaya, Ph.D
Kabir, The Great Mystic-Isaac A. Ezekiel
Kabir, The Weaver of God's Name-V. K. Sethi
Mira, The Divine Lover--V. K. Sethi
Saint Namdev, His Life and Teachings--J. R. Puri and V.
K. Sethi
Saint Paltu-Isaac A. EzekielSant Charan Das-T. R. Shingari
Sarmad, Jewish Saint of India-Isaac A. Ezekiel
Sultan Bahu-J. R. Puri
Tukaram, Saint of Maharashtra-C. Rajwade
Tulsi Sahib, Saint of Hathras-J. R. Puri and V. K. Sethi

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:09:38 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: No, mostly Irish. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 00:38:37 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Was God usually Indian?
Message:
So Anon, are there any 'masters' who take a more egalitarian view (i.e., that mastery is within all equally)?
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 06:39:13 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: Was God usually Indian?
Message:
Run, I would imagine that even Maharaji might say that(in theory) every one has the potential to be a Master. I am no expert on these matters and actually I am not really interested in checking out all these gurus. I have read a few books in my attempt to clarify my own position.
I believe there are, or were, some Gurus who basically got sick of being deified. There was one Radhasoami one in particular, I forget his name, who went to some lengths to remind people of his humanity. There were some who quit the job, possibly feeling that they had been elected for the wrong reasons or mistakenly.
I suppose that the notion that 'mastery is within all equally' is a quite universally accepted phrase. It's all semantics. Gurus may sometimes hint that they are no different essentially than anyone else and in the next breath rabbit on about their exclusivity. You know.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:06:16 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Was God usually Indian?
Message:
I think Mirage would only assure us of our potential mastery when he knew the check was in mail, i.e., to assuage us at the last minute when we were ready to pull.

Playing both sides of the coin is a good trick for anyone, but Rawatt really has that damn stuff in print about establishing peace on earth and Guru is greater than God and all of it.

Well if you think of whodunnit, maybe you can post it. When Krishnamurti pulled out of the mastery scene it was certainly a heartwarming occasion.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 22:54:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Literally volumes of books? -- sorry, Anon, cldn't resist -- excellent post
Message:
I love reading your posts. This one no exception. Yes, of course, part of the programming was all about the east's 'big spiritual leg' as opposed to the west's 'big material leg'. We were buying right into the Hindu caste system when it comes right down to it.
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 22:15:05 (EST)
From: michael
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Re: Was God usually Indian?
Message:
Very interesting. I had merely searched the net for guru maharaji on a whim. I was curious to know if there was still an active cult. Yep, there is! Hoo Ha. There also seems to be a counter-cult cult. No offense meant. I was there in the Portland, OR ashrams back in the seventies. Went to India to receive knowledge. Kissed the feet. Etc. Etc. Etc. Walked away from it when it started to look and feel more like christian fundamentalism that the truth.

I certainly do not want to tell anyone else what the truth is. We must all discover that for ourselves. What I have discovered revolves around what both Jesus and Buddha said about the truth being within us. Jesus said to rejoice because the kngdom of heaven is within. Buddha, when asked who he was, said I am that. For me this means that everything is already divine and sacred and I do mean everything. For me this means that I choose to live the best life that I know how. Each of us can.

As far as guru maharaji goes - I wish him well. He is after all a human being.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 23:04:08 (EST)
From: Caoch
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Re: Was God usually Indian?
Message:
God is a Silver Thunderbird
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:14:45 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Re: Was God usually Indian?
Message:
Nice to wish folks well during the december holidays
of course, but you wish him well in what way?

You may not want those still stuck to still be 'well'
stuck and being drained of thier time and money by him.
You wish him well, but what he needs is to wake up and
stop a lot of behaviours and if all of us here
stopped providing a forum and a website in opposition
to him, we would be irresponsible.

The wish is not the usual meaning of 'well'. If I wish
a thief or tyrant 'well', what am I saying?

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 08:52:25 (EST)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: michael
Subject: Re: Was God usually Indian?
Message:
michael, I really don't think any long-time readers of this site are going to confuse your posts with mine, but could you please put an initial or something at the end of your name, especially if you are going to start quoting Jesus? Welcome to the Forum.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 12:00:50 (EST)
From: Cynthia, raised Roman Catholic
Email: None
To: All
Subject: says 'No he's Polish, right, the Pope is Polish, my mother told me (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 17:17:02 (EST)
From: CBI
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Wishing and hoping
Message:
Thank you for your posts in response to my question.
I find the whole thing totally depressing, as I can see pain no matter which way I go.
I feel like a hetero girl trying to convert a gay friend whom I have a crush on. Secretly hoping he will crossover.
I guess I realised with horror sometime ago, that I wasn't my beaus top priority.
What would happen if M died?
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:25:56 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CBI
Subject: What would happen if Maharaji died?
Message:
Hi CBI (Are you representing the Confederation of British Industry by the way?)

You asked what would happen if Maharaji died?

I'd guess there'd be some godawful politics for a few days, before, during and after the funeral.

And we'd come out of it with about three new Perfect Masters, each with a bunch of close devotees, proclaiming their divinity. One would probably go back to full-blown Hinduism. One would modernise further and sell the four techniques as a sort of New Age therapy. The other would become a recluse.

Then there would be the court cases between the surviving members of Maharaji's family and the three new Perfect Masters.

Premies without a position in any of the new cults would be confused and long for the old days. Maybe some of them would continue worshiping old Maharaji.

And would the lion eventually get intimate with the lamb? I doubt it. Time will tell.

Anth the Historian.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:38:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Satpal would carpetbag
Message:
I bet either brother will raid the the other's nest when he dies. Probably pay some money to some PAM (or Satpal PAM) for a secret copy of his mailing list.
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 19:20:34 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: CBI
Subject: Re: Wishing and hoping
Message:
I realize the situation is difficult, but it isn't impossible. Just remember you have to take care of yourself first. That is true in any relationship, but it's especially true when you know that someone has a devotion to something you can't confront and about which he has been trained to be very dishonest. It isn't really possible to have a rational discussion with a cult member about their beliefs, because the cult trains you to protect those "sacred" beliefs from any examination.

If he remains in the cult, the best you can hope for is an agreement just not to talk about it, and focus on the other things you might have in common. But be VERY careful not to get sucked in yourself, or compromise your values.

And I would point out one other thing. You can't change your sexual orientation, but you can get out of a cult, although it is a difficult process. As an ex-premie, and as a gay man, I know this from personal experience.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:50:28 (EST)
From: All the best
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Wishing and hoping
Message:
CBI

If you would foresake the trust of your friend for the advice of this person you don't even know, whom you have stumbled upon on the internet, then you WOULD BE in a precarious position indeed. If the paranoia engendered by JW were to be valid, then my advice would be run, as fast as you can. But one thing you must appreciate about this place is the opinions here are sickeningly lop-sided. There is another side, and you must see that side for yourself through your friend. To not talk about it is to GUARANTEE failure of your relationship.

So talk to him. But like any exploration of new territory, you cannot go into it fearful and tentative and expect to discover much. There is a rule that if you ask with sincerity and innocence, your innocence will protect you from danger. If this were not the case, there would be no hope for the good of this world. If you cannot bring yourself to trust in innocence, and yes it is not always easy, then like JW you are left with little to trust but fear and paranoia.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:54:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: All the best
Subject: Re: Wishing and hoping
Message:
Whoever you are, I wonder whom you expect CBI to get information about what the Maharaji cult is REALLY about? From Elan Vital? From Maharaji himself? Who, besides ex-members will tell her the truth?

I mean think about it. CBI had to surruptiously listen to a tape to find out stuff that her 'partner' had apparently never told her. How do you even know what questions to ask of your 'partner' when there is a whole segment of his life that he doesn't disclose.

And I am not suggesting now talking about it. It would be great if that could happen. But, realistically, and I have seen these things happen to other couples, a relationshp can be destroyed if it gets too confrontational on something that one side is programmed not to openly discuss. I think CBI needs to realistically look at what it means when someone is in a cult and what that does to their thought processes. This isn't paranoia, it's realism.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 15:16:10 (EST)
From: ATB
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Wishing and hoping
Message:
> Whoever you are, I wonder whom you expect CBI to get information about what the Maharaji
> cult is REALLY about? From Elan Vital? From Maharaji himself? Who, besides ex-members
> will tell her the truth?

Like any other open minded investigation of truth I would expect CBI to hear all sides with an open mind before coming to a conclusion. The fact that your input appeals to her paranoia needs to be recognized. On the other side she should find out what makes this person she seems to care about tick.

Besides, ex-premies in no way represent the truth about Maharaji, nor do a lot of premies. To find out truth for yourself you follow the same rules that have applied since the beginning of time. 'You ask with sincerity and innocence'. If you think the world needs JW to filter information for the masses you are negating the purity of the pursuit of truth, and also have an incredibly high opinion of yourself.

All the best.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 17:11:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: ATB
Subject: Re: Wishing and hoping
Message:
What is your problem? I think you just answered your own objection to this discussion. By the way, telling someone she shouldn't take advice from a source over the internet and then proceeding to to the same, which is exactly what you did, is sheer hypocrisy.

The whole point of this forum and website, which is what makes it so valuable, is that it gives the other side of the story, a story you can't get from premies, or Elan Vital, or Maharaji. In fact, Mopen discussion about Maharaji, any back-and-forth discussion, isn't even allowed by Maharaji on any of the cult websites, and Maharaji has also banned nightly satsang.

I'm not suggesting that CBI not get 'both sides of the story.' Presumably she has gotten one side from her partner and is looking for the other side here. She then can make up her own mind.

If Maharaji operated the same way, allowing both sides of the story about what he does, responding to his critics, and allowing open discussion, including hearing from people who feel knowledge didn't work for them, I doubt this website would even need to exist.

And it really isn't fair to label something 'paranoia' just because you disagree with it.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 19:14:49 (EST)
From: ATB
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Wishing and hoping
Message:
So we agree that CBI should stay open and hear both sides. Thank you.

On your last point, the fact we disagree has nothing to do with me labeling you paranoid. It is because the fear embedded in your caution to CBI rings excrutiatingly loud. Cult paranoia is in some respects no different than other classic paranoias seen in different eras, for example the paranoia around socialism in the 40's, rock and roll in the '50's, marajuana in the 60's. The template for your anti-X rhetoric could be used for anything that's come down through time that is a challenge to the status quo. So now you're using it against a so-called cult. To me it's all just paranoia. I'd hazard to say you probably took this propensity to fear with you into Knowledge, and it also fuelled your exit. So now you sit giving advice to others. Well if they'll listen to you, they deserve you.

All the best.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 22:38:06 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: ATB
Subject: Re: Wishing and hoping
Message:
Yeah, to YOU it's just paranoia. That was my point, dear. If people remain 'open to both sides' they don't get into the cult. It's when they get programmed and start discounting the other side, including their own doubts, that people get sucked into a cult. It's the basis of Maharaji's cult. That's why he had an COMMANDMENT never to doubt. That precludes entertaining 'the other side' even if you allow yourself to hear it. That is the opposite of 'openness' and the basis of a cult.

Yeah, the cult is just like rock and roll. Really intelligent, whoever you are. That is a ridiculous comparison. You ought to do a little reading about the psychology of cults. I think you wouldn't then just lump any belief system together and say it's just like a cult. It isn't.

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Date: Thurs, Dec 23, 1999 at 18:01:39 (EST)
From: ATB
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Wishing and hoping
Message:
Paranoia is paranoia is paranoia. You are a propegator of it, and it colours your vision. Your voice will always be supported by the paranoid mindset, which was the same mindset to decry socialism in the 30's 40's, rock and roll in the 50's, marajuana in the 60's, and the WTO in the 21st century, which was the point I was making that you didn't seem to be able to grasp. The issue with you though 'dearest' is you think you see both sides of Knowledge by virtue of having been involved. My question to you is, if your vision is obscured by paranoia today, what makes you think it wasn't when you were a premie? No my dear, I am right in saying the only 'side' that YOU see is the one laced with your fear. Now, if only you had the objectivity to see that.
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 17:09:50 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: ATB
Subject: Re: Wishing and hoping
Message:
What is your problem? I think you just answered your own objection to this discussion. By the way, telling someone she shouldn't take advice from a source over the internet and then proceeding to to the same, which is exactly what you did, is sheer hypocrisy.

The whole point of this forum and website, which is what makes it so valuable, is that it gives the other side of the story, a story you can't get from premies, or Elan Vital, or Maharaji. In fact, Maharaji is so paranoid that open discussion about him, any back-and-forth discussion, isn't even allowed on any of the cult websites, and Maharaji has also banned nightly satsang.

I'm not suggesting that CBI not get 'both sides of the story.' Presumably she has gotten one side from her partner and is looking for the other side here. She then can make up her own mind.

If Maharaji operated the same way, allowing both sides of the story about what he does and hearing from people who feel knowledge didn't work for them, I doubt this website would even need to exist.

And it really isn't fair to label something 'paranoia' just because you disagree with it.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:36:44 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: All the best & CBI
Subject: Innocence and Experience.
Message:
What's all this, 'foresaking the trust of a friend' stuff Atb?

JW is not paranoid. He's an intelligent ex-cult member, eminently qualified to give advice to CBI on these topics. That's what this forum is for Atb. To help people out of a wierd guru worshipping cult, and to give information to people who are thinking of joining the cult.

I do agree with you though, about discussing the topic with the partner.

I was CBI 'd try:

Ask your friend what he or she thinks of religious cults like the Moonies, Harry Krishnaz and Scientologists.

Ask how the friend would feel if you were interested, in say becoming a Moonie.

Ask what the difference is between the Rev Moon and Maharaji.

Ask for an opinion on Maharaji's claim that he had come to Earth with more power than Jesus, Buddha and Krishna.

Ask whatever happened to his plan to establish Peace on Earth?

Ask your friend to point out some of Maharaji's faults.

Ask how come, say in the UK, 40,000 people have received knowledge, and 37,000 have quit. (And more are leaving all the time.)

Ask is the friend would line up and kiss Maharaji's feet.

Ask, if Maharaji told you to lie, cheat and steal, would you do it?

Anth the Questioning.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 16:54:31 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Message for Forum Admin
Message:
Someone is posting under my name. Please DELETE all messages with IP's different to the IP of the message which answered Roger eDrek's post 'Making an assumption here.' Or simply just remove all posts with the name Andrew Gerrard. So much of the energy of this forum is expended in handling nonsense. Time for a change.

Andrew Gerrard.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 17:05:00 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: forum admins
Subject: Re: Message for Forum Admin
Message:
My advice, have been a past perfect forum master, is to ignore this guys post. I think premies would like nothing more than to waste your time.

Of course, Andrew might just be one of the jokers from over in ''HELL.''

After all, two of those guys admitted to being ''all over the place already'' meaning they are already posting here under disguises.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 17:58:26 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Possible apologies to Andrew
Message:
Andrew,

You see, quite often we have no idea whom with are talking to here on the forum. We don't know if you are a real person or some premie trying to play a joke on us. This has happened all too often. Sure, those premies and maybe Internet trolls may only number less than a handful, but how do we really know?

I suspect that the person who impersonated you is a premie named Cereberus (aka Blackdog.) He's currently holding court over at the other Anything Goes or Hell forum and has become something of a folk hero with his attacks on the evil black knight Jim. Same goes for the even more obnoxious Catweasel who played no big games, but was an overcharged flamer with absolutely no content at all.

Like you he is a defender of Maharaji, except he is a coward with nothing to say and only disrupts with his little techno games and by stealing identities. Of course, I'm just assuming this because even if the IPs were visible he could be using a proxy.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 18:40:58 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Possible apologies to Andrew
Message:
OK. Thanks. Roger.

I'm no defender of Maharaji. There will be no more posts under my name, Andrew Gerrard.If any appear they will be counterfeit. A premie has hi-jacked my name. Totally dishonest behaviour. He is a liar and steeped in deceit. A sorry apology for a human being.

Andrew

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:09:35 (EST)
From: DV
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Re: Possible apologies to Andrew
Message:
Another reason to post incognito. I'm surprised no one has tried to imitate Jim. Maybe that's a testimony to his unique style:}. Hey premies, up to that challenge?
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 11:18:18 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Evolutionists
Subject: New Yorker evolution article (OT)
Message:
I have read the article 'The Accidental Creationist' in the Dec. 13th New Yorker that Gregg mentioned last week, about the debate on evolution.

It is a totally unworthy effort. It's tone is snobbish. It rehashes old arguments without adding anything new. It consists almost entirely of personal gibes. And when the author, Robert Wright, does stops insulting Gould to present his own explanations, he becomes idiotic with sentences like: 'Eyes are so favored by natural selection because light is a terrific medium of perception.' How explanatory!

His stated theme is very intriguing and has something to do with the evidence for directionality in evolution and how that might 'accidentally' support believe in a higher purpose, but he leaves that question hopelessly muddled and inconclusive. And that, I am sure, is because the current status of human understanding of evolution is just that - muddled and inconclusive.

We undeniably see that life is evolving toward greater complexity and greater intelligence. In order to avoid postulating a directing power that seems so obvious, Neo-Darwinism proposes that all life's advancements evolve by lucky accidents. There is one gigantic flaw to this theory - the lucky accidents are supposed to be genetics mutations, but it is now known that such mutations almost always delete some information from the gene pool, and advancements in evolution absolutely require the addition of information to the gene pool. Who is adding the information, when, and how, and why?

It is going to take eons of further evolution before humans are able to settle this debate, and all the present-day evolutionary theorists who have made up their minds are doing nothing but jumping the gun and blowing hot air.

This article by Robert Wright is very much in line with the usual content of the writings of evolutionary theorists. I have now read enough of them to know that they all have one thing in common. They all claim that their peers and colleagues don't know what they are talking about. And they are all correct in that assessment, every one of them.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 21:19:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Your tone is trouble, Way
Message:
Way,

The other night I stopped at a local supermarket to get the issue but it looks like it's already off the newsstand. Shit, I really want to read it. Wright's Moral Animal introduced me to evolution and I've enjoyed a number of essays by him since. Plus, as I've already stated here, I have some sort of instinctive dislike of Gould and am more than happy to thoughtlessly jump on any anti-Gould bandwagon that rolls by my doorway. No, seriously, I've followed the Dawkins / Gould debate somewhat and have so far found the former's argument more persuasive. Plus, Gould bores me. All the mroe reason, then, to read it.

But, Way, your tone strikes me as reckless and arrogant. Last spring you didn't know shit about this field of science. Now you know enough to say that all the participants are essentially fools. Maybe you're right. Too bad you didn't contribute your talents to science, I guess. We wouldn't have so much mediocrity in evolutionary studies if the universities could only have gotten their shit together to capture the real bright lights. What was it? The money?

Anyway, beside taking the piss out of you a bit I'd be happy to discuss the article with you if I could only get my hands on it. You don't by chance have a scanner do you? Does anyone.

By the way, Way, I now realize that you sent me several articles last spring and, although I gave you a cursory reply to them, I never really got back to you in greater depth. What can I say? Sorry's all I got. Mind you, if we pick it up here, I'm sure we can incorporate some of that stuff. It's all relevant.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:19:06 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Your tone is trouble, Way
Message:
Jim,

A few rejoinders:

The New Yorker issue is available at your local library. I of course do not recommend Mr. Wright's aritcle to anyone, but it would be interesting to hear about your reaction to it. I can fax it to you, or email you a scanned copy, if you like.

As for my tone, there's something a little comical about you criticizing anyone's tone here. If you allow 'recklessness and arrogance' to Messieurs Wright and Dawkins, and to yourself, then allow me to critique such people in what you perceive to be a similar vein.

Life in all its forms evolves. Yes. Our eyes and our brains are sufficiently evolved for us to understand that simple fact of life with assurance and without debate. But we are not yet the commentators on evolution, we are still only its puppets. Our science has NOT uncovered the explanations of 'how,' and we can ask the question 'why' only with ill-practiced humility of heart. Yes, we should continue to seek the answers that presently remain out of our grasp, and we should continue to speculate, ponder, research, and debate. But we should do so with mutual respect and publicly acknowledge the present limitations that plague us all. Science is demeaned by any premature answers and all the unworthy bickering that they generate.

My views on evolution have not changed since my college days, and that wasn't just last spring. As for my assertion that evolutionists are fools, you object, but I say two things: one, our species is a ship of fools (try jumping on that bandwagon); and secondly, the biggest fools are the ones who think they know the answers, and those answers are: randomness, fortuitous mistakes, self-organizing molecules, meaninglessness, and indifference to suffering. What a lovely picture of the universe they have given us. Shall I ask them about the beauty of the snow falling outside my window just now? Shall I ask them for their explanations of morality? Shall I ask them about love? Shall I ask them if there exists an intelligence higher than the human? No! I shall not!

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 18:34:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Science is more than peoples' opinions -- that's the diff
Message:
Shall I ask them about the beauty of the snow falling outside my window just now? Shall I ask them for their explanations of morality? Shall I ask them about love? Shall I ask them if there exists an intelligence higher than the human?

Yes, yes, and yes. Thanks to science, we know just a bit about all these things. Without science's help, we knew nothing at all. Just our capacity to love the mystery but that's hardly knowledge. So I'd say yeah, you're damned right you're going to ask those 'biggest fools'. Know why? Because if you're here long enough you're going to learn all they can teach you as they discover it anyway.

Way, I'd love to read the article if you would fax it. Please email me and I'll send you my ofice fax. Thanks

heller@bc1.com

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:07:05 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re:systems theory
Message:
Way you really ought to do some reading on second order systems, self organising systems, cybernetics, dare I say it, a little Maturana & Varela
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 18:38:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Oh no! Not that gobbledygook again!
Message:
Hi Ham,

My speculation is that people walk into that murky shit in the same way they walk into the forest. Why? Because it's there and it's fun to explore. Kind of like Gurdjieff then or Terence Mckenna now. Does it really lead anywhere? No, but that's the point. It's a forest, after all.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 13:59:20 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: hamzen
Subject: Re: Re:systems theory
Message:
Thanks so much, Hamzen. I just now took your advice and read five paragraphs of Maturana and Varela, 1988, all about how structural coupling induces a trajectory of reciprocally-triggered change. I feel better already!
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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 15:33:38 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Re:systems theory
Message:
Fritjof Capra has written one on second order systems, which should be much more accessible!
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 13:10:34 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: New Yorker evolution article (OT)
Message:
Hi Way,
I dont know that I see life evolving in even more complex ways, it is SO complex already.
Humans are discovering uses for the complexity, I see that.

I cant say I blame the materialists for having such an
slant against there being a god. They are jumpng the gun
of course, but I just read a book about mohammed finally
and he was a nutcase!
Another maharaji, insane and mad with power over others
and a total slave to the worst excesses normal people
try to control.
Christianity has a spotty track record as you know,
and if it is true that there is a devil and 'he knows
not for whom he works', then I could almost vote for
the materialists just to spite the game playing
'god' that arranged for this 'fun'.

I agree with you about the writing by the materialists
however, they sure do crow about things when the facts
are not all in to support them yet.
Oh well! what the heck, contention and jostleing
with each other is a time honored activity and we cant
get away from doing that no matter what we believe.

No matter what the oneness theorists dream,
we dont escape our human nature and I say good.
That is one area that I think the DNA got it right.
(or god), That we cant graduate out of human nature.
We can only move to the outer edges of different
behaviour options. Some say we have to pray to move
in some of the best directions, that may help, but lately,
I talk to myself. At least then I know someone is listening
and understands, and, I agree with myself!
Not a bad audience.

Not sure I can go more wrong than I did when I thought
the rawats had, as the premies say now, 'pure voice'.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:41:32 (EST)
From: DV
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Re: New Yorker evolution article (OT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 13:48:22 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: To bb re:Mohammed
Message:
BB,

I totally agree about Mohammed. I finally actually read the Koran in the late 80's and was shocked. A bunch of hogwash, every bit as bad as Guru Maharaj Ji's claptrap. The only sacred text that is any worse is The Book of Mormon. Did you see the PBS broadcast last week about the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith? - the typical charlatan with the typical indulgence in excesses (he received a divine revelation in favor of multiple marriages). These jokers never ever give up. They go to their graves perpetrating the myth of their divineness. Krishnamurti is the sole exception. I doubt Rawat will ever drop the gig.

As for the question about evolution continuing on toward a greater goal, I would say a trend has definitely been established and there is reason to hope for the future. At the present time, being a member of the human species is a pretty unpleasant experience. I wouldn't want to try it again until and unless the species evolves to the point that guns are obsolete and the work week is down to 30 hours at the most!

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:40:18 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: To bb re:Mohammed
Message:
I missed the PBS show but I have mentioned to 2 mormon
preachers that came to the door that I will believe
in mormonism when brigham young university gets an
archeology(sp?) dept.
No one has so much as a campfire to back up the claims
of roads and castles and thriving societies of very white
men in pre-columbus america.

Doesn't stop the march of believers! They advertise themselves as the fastest growing cult in america.
Horray for them! Let the guru find some golden tablets
and them maybe he will catch on like the holy family era.
I have some shiite muslim distant in laws. Nice folks,
but enslaved in that silly -bow 5 times a day towards
a fragment of lava- religion.
Talk about foisting bs on humans! We are plagued with
willing leaders that want to tell us all about life and
what we should do. I hope the DNA is happy!
Nice of it to indulge in 12 billion years of evolution
so that we could spend time fooling each other!

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 15:24:23 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Ha! Thanks for the laugh! (nt)
Message:
nt
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