Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 14
From: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 To: Thurs, Dec 30, 1999 Page: 4 Of: 5


Ben Lurking -:- Invisible fish, Jim and M -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 01:02:21 (EST)
__ Robyn -:- Re: Invisible fish, Jim and M -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 06:35:22 (EST)
__ Harry -:- Old Zen Saying -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 03:21:33 (EST)
__ __ AJW -:- A Question Master Goopla. -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 06:25:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Grand Master Goopla -:- Look no more. -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 07:46:42 (EST)

JHB -:- Latvian Beer and Vodka -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 21:40:34 (EST)
__ AKW -:- Re: Latvian Beer and Vodka -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:17:13 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Marianne, here's the plan... -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 05:08:14 (EST)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Marianne, here's the plan... -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 12:05:13 (EST)

Gerry -:- A Problem...and a solution -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 19:54:53 (EST)
__ gerry -:- A revision -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:13:16 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Re: A Problem...and a solution -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:14:10 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Anth may be drunk but he makes a lot of sense -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:45:39 (EST)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Agree -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 11:38:45 (EST)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Re: A Problem...and a solution -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 20:36:02 (EST)

JW -:- Real Headlines (OT) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 15:44:44 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Re: Real Headlines (OT) -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 06:52:16 (EST)
__ CD -:- ambiguity -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 16:59:45 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Chris, here's an unambiguous comment -- THAT'S SO DUMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 20:21:11 (EST)
__ __ __ CD -:- DUMB PIE FOR SALE -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 03:52:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're a wimpy twerp, CD -- afraid to dialogue, smirking in nervousness -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:00:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 17:04:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You miss the point, dufus (hey, that's a first!) -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 18:37:46 (EST)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Jim You stupid Idiot Thanks Chris! -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 20:29:53 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Jim You stupid Idiot Thanks Chris! -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 21:46:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Jim You stupid Idiot Thanks Chris! -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:04:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- how now brown cow -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 03:35:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Jim You stupid Idiot Thanks Chris! -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:00:59 (EST)

It's Official; Roger -:- is not 'new to this' and Nato (URL) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 13:46:25 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Block NATO and whoever else he is -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 17:11:28 (EST)

Jim -:- More missplaced humour -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:34:31 (EST)
__ __ Julian Clarey -:- Re: More missplaced 'Jim' -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 17:52:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Here's another one! -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 18:00:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ from the cheap seats -:- HEY ROGER YOU ASSHOLE -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 18:30:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Hey, Turing Machine, I love you, too. NT -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:17:31 (EST)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: RE: Mindfuck of a haircut -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 12:53:53 (EST)

new to this -:- is this ethical? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:54:47 (EST)
__ Paul -:- Re: is this ethical? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 12:18:19 (EST)
__ __ CD -:- reasonable advice -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 16:52:06 (EST)
__ __ __ Whiplash Willie -:- Re: reasonable advice -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 05:06:53 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: reasonable advice - what a joke! -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 17:38:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: advice -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 03:56:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- No, I'm just an animal. NT -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 04:42:18 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Did they have sex with you? Cause that would be even worse, I think -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:26:08 (EST)
__ __ Roger Laughing eDrek -:- Very stupid thinking, NATO, URL, Bradley, et al -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 16:55:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Oh you're a premie all right, NATO -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 19:34:49 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- NATO's post is absolutely incorrect -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 12:48:51 (EST)
__ __ __ Forum Admin -:- Roger is not new to this:-) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 13:23:13 (EST)
__ CD -:- this to new -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 08:31:29 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- CD sells snakebites on the strength of the venom antidote -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:32:30 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: this to new -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 08:38:52 (EST)
__ Robyn -:- Re: is this ethical? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:40:00 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Re: is this ethical? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:12:13 (EST)
__ __ new to this -:- Re: is this ethical? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:23:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- It's not a cult, the therapist says? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 14:49:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ CD -:- Its a cult, the therapist is -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 03:42:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ new to this -:- Marianne isn't just advancing her own agenda -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 21:45:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Marianne is OK -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 02:55:02 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- For Your Own Good -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:04:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- CD, you just don't understand -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:52:03 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- You are absolutely incorrect, CD -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 12:58:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: really -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 17:47:04 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Wrong again, CD -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 20:21:49 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- what we know -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 03:09:55 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Geez, CD -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:54:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- We do care about people! -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 03:54:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Maybe You do -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 04:24:57 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: is this ethical? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:46:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Powerman -:- Re: is this ethical? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 10:49:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- IT'S COMPLETELY UNETHICAL -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 10:07:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Agree with Cynthia -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:02:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Very strongly agree with Cynthia & Susan -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 12:44:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- P.S...Who is this NATO person? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 10:48:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Yes -:- and make friends w him this time around(nt) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 13:44:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Just another new friend, Cynthia -- be kind now (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:38:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: P.S...Who is this NATO person? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 10:50:47 (EST)

Enough -:- Singing at the Res! -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:54:09 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Christmas at the Residence. -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:58:06 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- ***Best*** -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 05:20:13 (EST)
__ __ Susan -:- The guru has bad manners -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:07:31 (EST)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Sit on the floor -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 06:33:22 (EST)

Roger eDrek -:- Talk about disrespect! -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 03:20:03 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- The Sell Out Conspiracy -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 03:48:01 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- The question is not 'would you cut off your head for your guru but rather ...... -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:16:46 (EST)
__ __ Enough -:- Those guys gave cults a bad name -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 03:58:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, but still a cult still a cult like our old cult -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 04:30:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Krishnas got prosecuted too -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 14:35:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Waco? (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 20:47:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- I'd add that to the list, also Synanon -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 21:54:15 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Then you know the joke about lawyers/snakes and no skid marks, right? :-))(nt) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:06:51 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: Krishnas got prosecuted too -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 17:55:43 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Scientology?? (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 14:41:01 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Scientology?? -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 14:51:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Posts below by Deputy Dog are Totally Irrelevant -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 01:06:39 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Scientology??!! -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 00:06:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, I really RESPECT you now!!! -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 00:12:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, you are clever! -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:03:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Jim, you've got to SPREAD it around -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 00:47:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ octopus -:- Re: Jim, you've got to SPREAD it around -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 06:56:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Enough -:- Saddam Maharaji -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:26:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Another find -The Nonduality Salon -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 04:45:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Another find - NewsOne.Net alt.cult.maharaji -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:00:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Another find - respectfully for the newagers -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:56:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hip hip horay! (?) -- sorry (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:40:54 (EST)

la-ex -:- welcome Suzanne -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 00:44:23 (EST)

JHB (John Brauns) -:- A Challenge to Nato -:- Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 21:50:34 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Nato - What are you afraid of? (NT) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 07:12:09 (EST)
__ Monmot -:- Nato is also Donkey God (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 22:13:31 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Have you tried treating him with respect, John? I hear that works ......(nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 21:54:02 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Stop taking the piss.... -:- Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 22:03:50 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- They have the advantage in guerilla warfare -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 01:29:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, yes, respect I tell you! That is the way! (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 01:37:10 (EST)


Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 01:02:21 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Invisible fish, Jim and M
Message:
I watched candid camera tonite and they had a segment where a pet store sold invisible fish, most people couldn't see the fish but a few were able to 'see' the fish, they saw them swim and move and jump.

It struck me that premies are seeing the invisible fish - they believe its there -thats the core of their 'experience' somewhere along the line they made a 'leap' of belief, they saw the invisible fish. They see things that aren't there. The amazing thing is the stories the con man tells them are they same stories that can get them out.

So to the premies that come here as our GUESTS and make no mistake about it this is not the town square -you have no voting rights here. your beliefs have no validity they are nothing more than a leap into m the conman land and No matter what methods you try we can't see fish that aren't there -were sorry you are still buying it hook line and sinker but just because you believe its there doesn't make it true.

We get blamed for not trying hard enough for not having faith for all kinds of reasons but if this is the perfect system why doesn't it work - if all the students leave then it is the teachers fault - and we leave because he is not who or what he says he is.

Go back to ELK and watch the invisible fish -at least thats a place where you can all agree on something.

Oh and this has nothing to do with Jim - but some of you just had to see something thats not there.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 06:35:22 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: Invisible fish, Jim and M
Message:
Dear Ben,
I never see that show but I did last night! When I saw the subject of the thread I knew you had seen it too and thought, I never would have kpictured 'Ben Lurking' would sit and watch Candid Camera! Of course I didn't think of the analogy you did but it is very aprapos.
The thing I did think when I saw the show was that it is on early in a time slot for young kids to see and I just bet there is a following of young boys who watch religiously to see Susan Summers in whatever sexy dress she has got on that week! Talk about sex in marketing! :) There are probably plenty of grown men watching for that reason also but I do think she takes it a bit far considering she could be wearing jeans as far as what type of show it is!
A good friend from here who emails me just recently told me about a crush he had on Anettee Funichello(sp) when he was in 4th grade. I bet Suzanne has such a following! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 03:21:33 (EST)
From: Harry
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Old Zen Saying
Message:
When once seen, the fish are said to be there. When fishies no longer seen, they are said to be not there.
Zen Master Goopla.
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 06:25:36 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Harry
Subject: A Question Master Goopla.
Message:
What is the sound of one fish flapping?

Anth the Masterless

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 07:46:42 (EST)
From: Grand Master Goopla
Email: None
To: AJW the Masterless
Subject: Look no more.
Message:
Grasshopper, I have meditated for many years on this one riddle.
My head says that there is no sound,
for the fish is an illusion,
but my heart tells me that there is indeed a sound,
and the sound is -
flip, flip, flip.
Grand Master Goopla
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 21:40:34 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Latvian Beer and Vodka
Message:
Tonight an undisclosed number of former followers of the Guru Maharaj Ji met at the Latvian Club in London. This was an appropriate venue, because to my knowledge, Maharaji has never spread his second hand meditation techniques to anyone in Latvia.
A large amount of Latvian beer and Italian and Polish vodka was consumed and if anyone thinks I can type any more about this at this time of night coherently then they must be under an equally large illusion as I was under when I followed the guru.

Goodnight

John.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:17:13 (EST)
From: AKW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Latvian Beer and Vodka
Message:
Hiya John,

So what you're really saying here is that the Ex-premies in London sat in the Latvian club til around 2.30am, knocking back Vanilla Vodkas until thjey could nt ti man[a[0wen orna dnd foaser[WE'#SAD#FDLF/L;SADFJA'SPDF99DJF E9IE9
ANTH WEAPRJAS]SDT]
=-ASD]F';P'ASDFOI

gOODnifhgght

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 05:08:14 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: AKW
Subject: Marianne, here's the plan...
Message:
I still don't know why Truman did not use all the troops we had stationed in Britain at the end of WWII to exact further revenge for the War of 1812 and take control of the place once and for all. Or am I thinking of Korea?

Marianne, at one of these Latvian Polka parties you've got to out drink these lads and at the very least take their wallets or whatever those guys call 'em, strip them naked, and leave 'em in the alley.

I'm a yankee doodle dandy...

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 12:05:13 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Marianne, here's the plan...
Message:
Roger: Why didn't you email this to me instead of putting it on the site???? Argghhhhh. Now our plans are spoiled! I don't know about that Latvian beer. From everything I've heard, it's very heady stuff. I'm not a beer drinker -- you know, snobby California wine consumer and all that. I guess that means I have to drink vodka! I can feel the hangover already.

Once I pants the guys, I'll take a photo and post it here!

Yours in rebellion,
Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 19:54:53 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A Problem...and a solution
Message:
This place needs a good dusting and vacuuming. As a ''house husband'' and kept man, it's my duty to notice these things...

The main thing is, we have a lot of good discussion here on the essence of being captured by a cult. We have a purpose here and we serve a purpose best when we are coherent..

It seems every time we start to get a decent discussion about the cult going, some disrupter jumps in and high jacks the thread. Many good points get buried by this tactic. And our argument is diminished and diluted. Few people have the patience to wade through all the bullshit to get to the meat. This is a pity.

Also, with all the internecine squabbling among exes, our argument is again weakened and blurred.

What I propose is this:

1) Any discussion about the forum or its participants will be deleted.

2) All off topic stuff gets deleted .

3) Premie disruptors will not be allowed to divert threads. Their access, as far as posting, will be severely curtailed, so they can't come to our house and shit all over us and leave.

The Forum Administrators seem to be very 'heads up' and I would gladly accept their judgement calls as they see it.

This way we keep a clean house, everyone gets the message that Mahraji is a crook, we exes look good and the fighting and off topic stuff can just go to Hell.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:13:16 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: all
Subject: A revision
Message:
Thanks for the feedback and you guys make valid points.
We could have a ''gentleman's'' agreement to take most ex-to -ex squabbles to HELL.

I DO think premie disruption posts should be deleted. As Marianne pointed out below, there is a whole slew of posts by the fucking Deputy Dog which are ''irrelevant'' and are prime candidates for deletion.

I'm fine with ''Off Topic'' threads. But we really need to get rid of the disruptive (intentionally so) type posts.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:14:10 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Re: A Problem...and a solution
Message:
Hi Gerry,

I think you're touching a nerve here. The forum is evolving. It's already sprouted Sir Dave's 'Anything Goes' Forum, as well as the 'Recent Exes' forum that Katie set up.

I think most premies who are on the way out, and also on the Internet, arrive at the Forum the same way I did, via Ex-Premie.org.

Besides premies, there are 'aspirants' who occasionally show up. But I think most of them arrive via Ex-Premie.org too.

So Gerry, it seems that the question is, do we continue running this site on the basis of free expression or introduce more censorship than exists at the moment, removing the type of posts that you suggest.

Right now, posts appear to be deleted if they contain someone's address, or personal details. Personal abuse is also removed, along with threats, intimidation etc.

What you're suggesting Gerry, is a major change in the role of the Forum Administrator, and I can understand where you're coming from.

I used to be a journalist, and am aware that sometimes there's a difference between expressing yourself and your personal feelings, and putting forward a rational, logical argument.

Premies and non-premies find the forum and read what's happening. As we become more aware of our readers, and as our readership increases, it's natural that, as you suggest, we start to think about what kind of effect what we write has on our readers.

Inevitably, the issue of censorship arises. We shouldn't give more power to the faceless, non-democraticaly appointed administrators than they already have, without at least giving the topic serious discussion.

Any policy which restricts freedom of expression, shouldn't be implemented without the consensus of the participants.

My guts tell me that I should vote for freedom of expression.

Anth the Drunken Democratic Latvian

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:45:39 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Anth may be drunk but he makes a lot of sense
Message:
Gerry: We have a very similar reaction to the idiot premies whose posts are nasty, abusive and subvert meaningful discussion. They get cut off by Forum Gods only to reappear with another identity, like a nine headed hydra. Then we go through the process all over again. Even though this process is irritating and usually a waste of time, I think that there are good reasons why we have to let the premies stay.

When the premies are abusive and deny the obvious, lurkers and fence sitters learn something about the cult and M's devotees. We are also able to identify disinformation when it is being spouted by the premies, and this is the only place aspirants & fence sitters are going to have it identified as such.

The forum is still doing its job, and doing it well. The posts by New to This are a perfect example of our effectiveness, even with all the recent premie disruptions and our own battles. The post by Suzanne describing her departure and her husband's 16 hour forum and ex-premie.org fest also shows that the site is doing its job in spite of the bumps in the road.

Stifling dissent is a mistake. Uncovering the truth is a messy process. We're sort of like an on-going Truth Commission, finding our way as we move forward.

My way of dealing with disinformation and diversion of threads is to make the heading of my post say something like I did to NATO today -- QUIT SPREADING DISINFORMATION. We're the ones who have to be vigilant about not allowing the discussions to get subverted.

As for the OT posts, they are usually identified and you can choose to read them or not. I like them because they usually have some anecdote about the life of the poster and I get to have more of a sense of who is in this virtual community.

I totally understand and sympathize with the motivation for your post, but I have to disagree. Take that, Mr. Bigglesworth!

Your wild & crazy friend,
Marianne

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 11:38:45 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Agree
Message:
Because the cult is so intense about editing what its members say and think it is important that we stay as uncensored as possible. It is a stark contrast to premie life where questioning and disagreement are so stifled. As Anth pointed out, most who find the forum find it via ex.premie.org, which is very 'together' in its approach. The forum is simply a mishmash of people stating their own feelings and opinions. I do think that some things should be deleted. But that it should be avoided if possible. As premies make their way to ex's they do see that in the real world their is huge diversity of opinion and that ' two tons of rotting vegetables' do not appear in the heads of people who speak their minds.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 20:36:02 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Re: A Problem...and a solution
Message:
Maybe everyone who wants to post needs to register, won't keep anyone from reading will make controling the board easiar and then you don't have to worry about content as much
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 15:44:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Real Headlines (OT)
Message:
Just to let everyone know that exes really do have senses of humor and do not fight all the time, following are actual newspaper headlines from 1998; the 1999 list will be out shortly:

THE YEAR'S BEST HEADLINES:
>
> * Include Your Children when Baking Cookies
>
> * Iraqi Head Seeks Arms
>
> * Panda Mating Fails; Veterinarian Takes Over
>
> * Clinton Wins on Budget, But More Lies Ahead
>
> * Enraged Cow Injures Farmer With Ax
>
> * Plane Too Close to Ground, Crash Probe Told
>
> * Miners Refuse to Work after Death
>
> * Juvenile Court to Try Shooting Defendant
>
> * Two Sisters Reunited After 18 Years at Checkout Counter
>
> * If Strike Isn't Settled Quickly, It May Last a While
>
> * Cold Wave Linked to Temperatures
>
> * Red Tape Holds Up New Bridges
>
> * Typhoon Rips Through Cemetery; Hundreds Dead
>
> * New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group
>
> * Astronaut Takes Blame for Gas in Spacecraft
>
> * Ban On Soliciting Dead in Trotwood
>
> * Hospitals are Sued by 7 Foot Doctors
>

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 06:52:16 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Real Headlines (OT)
Message:
Hi Joe,

This reminded my of the headline on one of the old British Divine Times,

'Hospitals Kill Says Mahatma'.

Anth (who can now spell Minnelium...Millnnen..Minnolium..sod it..New Year)

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 16:59:45 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: ambiguity
Message:
Besides being humorous, those headlines are great examples of ambiguity in language.
Everyday as we communicate, ambiguity is at work wether we explicitely realize it or not.

CD

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 20:21:11 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Chris, here's an unambiguous comment -- THAT'S SO DUMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Message:
Chris,

Here's another one -- you're a total idiot. Get that? It means you're stupid. Oh how else can I put this? Someone? I'm not so good with words. Maybe, Joe or someone can give me a hand here. 'Nincompoop'? 'Brainless'?

Okay, why? WHY you ask? WHY?? WHY???!!

Because, Chris, we don't communicate by just dropping headlines on each others' doorsteps. We talk with one another (if we're not fucked up like you, quite frankly). If there's a funny little ambiguity in some conversation we soon find it due to the context and subsequent comments and clear it up.

You are such a fool to make this into something. You know what you remind me of? A Scientologist who's been trained by his cult to insist that if anyone disagrees with cult dogma it's because somewhere, somehow, in their reading of cult scripture, they passed a word they weren't sure of. Sound familiar?

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 03:52:21 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: DUMB PIE FOR SALE
Message:
>Here's another one -- you're a total idiot. Get that? It means you're stupid.

Fine, I got it. But I am not stupid by the majority of measures.
Sure it does mean I am stupid. Just proves that your logic is extraordinary.

>If there's a funny little ambiguity in some conversation we soon find it due to the context and subsequent comments and clear it up.

Yes, you are right. I have seen it work for you over the last 2 years. Congrats!

We are about to embark on the year 2000.
We are lucky to be around.
Use your strengths to benefit not to destruct.
You are a smart guy.

Cheers,
CD

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:00:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You're a wimpy twerp, CD -- afraid to dialogue, smirking in nervousness
Message:
Chris,

I get the feeling that some things said to you unnerve you here a bit. After all, your extraordinarily stupid Yoda-style series of fortune cookie pearls get batted out of the ballpark as soon as they're pitched(that's four metaphors in there!). But you can't tell us that. You can't tell us anything real because, as you know, that would be a whoel different ball game. You see how impossible it is for anyone to actually defend the cult. So the only way you can stick around is to post these inane pieces of non-communication. Of course, no one here takes you seriously. I even wonder whether your friend Katie did. I mean, how could she?

Anyway, she's gone and, as far as I can tell, there's not a single person here, Chris, who respects your opinions. Know what? I bet even you have to wonder if you're not just spouting a lot of nonsense. I infer that from some of your clown posts, the ones you make when you're really stuck and can't even think of anything new-agey to get you out.

Here's a dare for you, Chris. I dare you to let some of your business contacts, clients if you have them, read what you write here. Obvious reasons. And obviously you never will. Even you'd be ashamed by an outside look into the weird, weird world of Christopher Dickey.

With all due respect,

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 17:04:06 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re:
Message:
Do you really feel that you offer value to your readers besides entertainment?

>You can't tell us anything real because, as you know, that would be a whoel different ball game.

What have you offered that is so 'real'? That you were celibate for 8 years and now have a grudge. That you know who is right and who is wrong. That you can brand other peoples viewpoints as nonsense because you are an ignorant slut who can nevertheless write well.

>Even you'd be ashamed by an outside look into the weird, weird world of Christopher Dickey.

Why should I be ashamed? I am happy with my life. I don't have to pretend that all I enjoy are fooball games on Sunday. Everybody doesn't have to like me. Many people do. There are links from my web site to a list that does have some books you would brand as 'new-agey'. No problem.

Some books

CD

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 18:37:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You miss the point, dufus (hey, that's a first!)
Message:
The point, Chris, is that you couldn't possibly feel good about any of your clients seeing how weird and evasive your posts are here. That's it. No more, no less.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 20:29:53 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim You stupid Idiot Thanks Chris!
Message:
So when M said he was God that was amigous and we all had mass misinterpetation pronblems? And peace on earth -he's got his piece so that must be what he meant to say.

No Chris - we did not misunderstand M he said he was God, he siad he was the Creator. he isn't. You shall know them by their fruits - he is a fraud We know this from is stale ass money garbing de-humanizing fruits

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 21:46:28 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: Jim You stupid Idiot Thanks Chris!
Message:
Hi Ben. Merry Christmas -- Happy Holidays. That said, do you think you could be a bit more explicit with your feelings???? hahahahaha Very funny post.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:04:27 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Jim You stupid Idiot Thanks Chris!
Message:
How did I get 2 replies with 2 different browsers? (I know)
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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 03:35:28 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: how now brown cow
Message:
>How did I get 2 replies with 2 different browsers?

You are an idiot.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:00:59 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: You already Know it!
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Jim You stupid Idiot Thanks Chris!
Message:
Happy Holidays - Sorry I never responded to your Thanksgiving invite, it got read and I forgot it, I was cleaning out my mail today and there it was -> I wouldn't have made it tho -cooked the whole dinner for the family myself.

Now about how I feel - it was that catchy marketing headliner that drew you in, but it may have been ambigous Like I am towards M in fact I'm so ambigous about him that all the excess ambiguity spews out of me -now if I could only spell and type at the same time but M ruined my coordination with all those strange finger placing habits.! Have A happy

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 13:46:25 (EST)
From: It's Official; Roger
Email: gerry@techline.com
To: All
Subject: is not 'new to this' and Nato (URL)
Message:
is a blowhard and a liar who is here only to disrupt the conversation, discredit posters and sow discord amongst forum participants.

As such, I feel he should be blocked and his posts deleted.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 17:11:28 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: It's Official; Roger
Subject: Block NATO and whoever else he is
Message:
Time to get rid of this disrupter, IMO. He keeps coming back with a different name every two weeks.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:34:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: NATO
Subject: More missplaced humour
Message:
Sorry, NATO, a haircut is different than a mindfuck. For one thing, your hair grows back.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 17:52:27 (EST)
From: Julian Clarey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: More missplaced 'Jim'
Message:
You'd know Mr Stupid. Mind Fuck is your middle name ?
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 18:00:21 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Julian Clarey
Subject: Here's another one!
Message:
How much respect to we give to this guy?

Zero!

Sorry, if I'm overworking this respect thing, but there are countless examples where respect is obviously not appropriate. These people are not our friends.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 18:30:51 (EST)
From: from the cheap seats
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: HEY ROGER YOU ASSHOLE
Message:
BOOOOO!!!!!!!!

You don't have what it takes to be an coherent asshole, you are a freak

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:17:31 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: from the cheap seats
Subject: Hey, Turing Machine, I love you, too. NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 12:53:53 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: BenLurk@aol.com
To: NATO
Subject: Re: RE: Mindfuck of a haircut
Message:
I am glad a premie had finally admitted that they all suffer, now all you need to do is admit your a cult member. Why do you need to suffer, why should anyone put themselves thru that shit from M
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:54:47 (EST)
From: new to this
Email: heidiste@concentric.net
To: All
Subject: is this ethical?
Message:
I recently was introduced to Knowledge and Maharaji by a licensed social worker during counseling sessions. Once I found this site and others like it, I really had to question whether it's ethical for a licensed professional to bring this up in a paid session to a client. Has anyone else experienced this method of introduction? Any thoughts on the professional ethics of this practice?
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 12:18:19 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: new to this
Subject: Re: is this ethical?
Message:
As someone who worked for 20 years as a mental health professional I would say that yes, this is unethical. But it should give you some idea of the control that MJ exerts on people-regardless of their education and profession. Your therapist, as a true believer, has lost her critical thinking in this area to the point of acting unprofessionally (unless she indicated upfront that this was her approach to therapy, much like what christian counselors do). Now, as an ex, I may be slightly biased, since therapists often, and correctly suggest that clients expore yoga, meditation, biofeedback, etc. But in this case she was introducing you to her particular cult of practice. This should be a warning to you. Find another therapist. Good Luck

Paul

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 16:52:06 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: reasonable advice
Message:
You have given reasonable advice. If 'new' does not feel that he/she is benefitting from the advice of the counselor or the advice is counterproductive then, 'new' should 'find another therapist'.

I would consider 'unethical' to be any actions which would cheat, harm or take advantage of a patient. Because of the misuse of critical thinking by many posting here a witchhunt mentality is being promoted which has nothing to do with ethics.

What do you really know about this counselor to be able to state that she has 'lost her critical thinking'? This is the source of rumours and slander.

There appears to be a small mob of ambulance chasers with chants of sue, sue, sue, fire, fire, fire, cult, cult, cult.

CD

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 05:06:53 (EST)
From: Whiplash Willie
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Re: reasonable advice
Message:
'There appears to be a small mob of ambulance chasers with chants of sue, sue, sue, fire, fire, fire, cult, cult, cult.'
Translation: Don't do anything that might embareass Maharaji and his cult.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 17:38:05 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Re: reasonable advice - what a joke!
Message:
CD,

You've got to be kidding to start your post off with this, 'You have given reasonable advice'. Paul, who is a therapist, has said that such advice is unethical.

Come on, CD, the U.S. Navy (I think) Chaplain has DLM/EV listed as a cult. The original regisitration of DLM lists it as a Religious Organization. Maharaji said that he was the Lord of the Universe.

Me thinks that it quacks like a cult.

It would be most interesting if 'new to this' filed a complaint or a suit and the courts decided the issue as to whether this therapist acted unethically and maybe the big one, that DLM/EV is a cult. I would welcome such an opportunity to have this thing in the news for the world to decide.

I'd be betting money that Elan Vital is in scramble mode as we speak trying to contact this therapist. DAMAGE CONTROL! I will also predict that somehow a message will get out to premies that they should never do such a referral if they are in a professional capacity.

Finally, I believe that the Knowledge is not given to people who are seeing therapists and are exhibiting instability. Not that 'new to this' falls into this category as she sounds ok to me. Then we all know that just seeing Maharaji videos can be a cure for most ills.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 03:56:39 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: advice
Message:
>Paul, who is a therapist, has said that such advice is unethical.

Paul was much more careful in his advice unlike you Roger.
But you are a party animal.

CD

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 04:42:18 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: No, I'm just an animal. NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:26:08 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: new to this
Subject: Did they have sex with you? Cause that would be even worse, I think
Message:
You bet your booties it's bad. They should be reported to their licencing body and fast. Let the therapist explain him or herself, let them explain that they've exercised professional responsiblity and have done their own 'due diligence' on this 'recommended therapy'. (Oh yeah, did they give Maharaji a 'referral'?)
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 16:55:57 (EST)
From: Roger Laughing eDrek
Email: None
To: NATO
Subject: Very stupid thinking, NATO, URL, Bradley, et al
Message:
Oh, boy! This is what happens when you've actually attempted not to think for some twenty-umpteen years.

Yes, let's do a step by step analysis of my one in, say, 50 million browser type, idiot. (I hope that I am not showing you any disrespect here. Or is this a valid case where respect is not due to this asshole who is bascially a guerilla disrupter? I cannot imagine operating under such guidelines nor do I even wish to attempt to be civil.)

Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 4.01; Windows 98)

Let's start with the obvious, Windows 98. How many people are using Windows 98. MILLIONS!

How many people are still using the free MSIE 4.01? MILLIONS!

I believe that the user-agent and the browser are one and the same whereas the user-agent is based on the capabilities of the browser.

I'm probably running the most common configuration on the planet. Oh, maybe Win98 and MSIE 5.nn, but I'm too smart to run that piece of trouble.

Occassionally, you might be able to make guesses based on browser info here at the forum if there is something rather unusual and rare.

NATO or whomever you are, you're an absolute idiot!

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 19:34:49 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: NATO
Subject: Oh you're a premie all right, NATO
Message:
Don't be fooled by NATO's post. He was engaged in a discussion with Anth in a thread below in which he discussed Elan Vital, Glen Whittaker, etc. Only a premie would know those sorts of things.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 12:48:51 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: NATO
Subject: NATO's post is absolutely incorrect
Message:
New to this & others: The posts on this thread are not all from one person. Nato is deceiving you. He is a premie. The posts in this thread are all from individual ex-premies who regularly post on this site.

Also Nato (or should I say URL), the IP addresses of New & Drek are different, and New put up his or her email address. Quit spreading disinformation.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 13:23:13 (EST)
From: Forum Admin
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Roger is not new to this:-)
Message:
'New to this' does not appear to be Roger from the IPs.
NATO, if you want to post here, please show a little more intelligence.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 08:31:29 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: new to this
Subject: this to new
Message:
>Any thoughts on the professional ethics of this practice?

There is certainly the possibility that the social worker believes in the value of the introduction he/she made to you. Besides what you may believe by reading these sites what was the problem. Some people benefit from the perspective that Maharaji teaches. You might note that on sites such as amazon.com you can find books that are both loved and hated by reviewers. You have to judge the true merits for yourself. I have seen books recommended by respected college professors that recieved many poor reviews on amazon.com Even among the people who promote the ex viewpoint here you will find lots of controversy. Read a bit more. And realize that the whole story is not being told on these sites. People on both sides are selective when they have an agenda. I have no regrets for the time I have spent listening to talks given by Maharaji. And I don't have regrets for having told people about Maharaji myself.

CD

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:32:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD sells snakebites on the strength of the venom antidote
Message:
CD,

This is perverse. You try to assure this person that they're being asked to make up their own mind by explaining that there are 'two sides' to this cult and that lots of 'controversy' assures him or her an chance to make her own independent decision about it.

But, Chris, this 'controversy' is in spite of, not thanks to, the cult. The whole problem with the cult to begin with is that if you get even slightly close to it it treis to pull you away from any real information flow and shut off your critical faculties. Whassamatta you dunna see dat, Chrissie baby?

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 08:38:52 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Re: this to new
Message:
People on both sides are selective when they have an agenda.

So true Chris, as witnessed by you not telling new that it's a devotional trip, and that an aspirant has to demonstrate their love for Maharaji before they receive the precious gift of four old meditation techniques. Strange how you missed that small bit out.

John.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:40:00 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: new to this
Subject: Re: is this ethical?
Message:
Dear New,
I am pretty shocked that a professional would use their postion to 'spread the message'. I think it is very wrong and quite unsettling. I wonder if this person makes it a practice to tell clients. It seems they should be reported to their supervisors. I am glad you found the sites and hope you get the true idea of what is happening.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:12:13 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: new to this
Subject: Re: is this ethical?
Message:
Hi New to this,

Sounds extremely dodgy and unprofessional to me. Your social worker is going way beyond his or her responsibility in trying to coerce you into joining a religious cult.

Have you had a look at Ex-Premie.org?

It doesn't sound like this person is fit for the job. I'd write a letter of complaint and ask for another counsellor ir I were you.

Anth the Unethical.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:23:43 (EST)
From: new to this
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: is this ethical?
Message:
thanks for the input. I wrote him a letter explaining I felt it was inappropriate to introduce this in such a setting and requesting a refund for time spent with him. He responded at length, denying impropriety, and did not send a refund (no surprise). He is adamant this is not a cult, so I've been checking out ex-premie.org and the Cult Watch Maharaji site to try and sort it out and figure out what I believe. I know I'm no longer interested in pursuing Knowledge and am thankful these sites are out here. I'm considering writing to the licensing board about the guy. I'm having a tough time pinpointing exactly when/how he went over the line but my gut tells me it was wrong.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 14:49:04 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: new to this
Subject: It's not a cult, the therapist says?
Message:
New: I can't believe that this therapist is even having discussions with you about whether Maharaji's gig is a cult. This shouldn't even be an issue in a theraputic relationship. If you talk to this guy again, you ought to ask him how long he's been involved in it.

Also, you don't need to pinpoint for the licensing board how it is that the therapist went over the line. They'll be able to figure it out themselves. Just give them the facts. I'm betting they will be horrified.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 03:42:07 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Its a cult, the therapist is
Message:
>I'm betting they will be horrified.

You could give a damn about the reasons the person might be seeing a therapist in the first place and how the sessions are benefiting or harming the person.
You only care that he heard about Maharaji and its good ammo for your agenda.
O.K. So I am not suprised. But I thought maybe you did really care more about people.
And you have the nerve to speak about disinformation.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 21:45:16 (EST)
From: new to this
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Marianne isn't just advancing her own agenda
Message:
Interesting discussions that have been going on here and I certainly do appreciate all of the perspectives that have been posted - particularly from those with legal and mental health expertise. I am afraid you have not convinced me that Marianne doesn't care a bit about me and is only trying to advance her own agenda. Sounds to me like she knows what she's talking about. In any case, I had already established for myself that this therapist had nothing more to offer me and I didn't and don't plan to see him again. I think ending this professional relationship is a very healthy thing to do. In fact, it was at my second meeting with him, after I told him I didn't think I needed to continue working with him (because he had referred me to reading materials which were of great help to me on a different topic), that he told me about Maharaji and Knowledge, enticing me to return and find this promised passion in my life. That's when he began loaning me video and audio tapes and telling me of other meetings.

I do believe he truly had my best interst in mind and that there are probably some very good things that could come out of Knowledge. However, I have now seen enough different perspectives to realize that it is not something I wish to pursue. Had he introduced me to Knowledge outside of our therapist/client relationship, and not charged me $120/hr to hear about it, I don't believe I would have any basis for questing his actions. However, he did use his position to introduce me to something that is clearly not accepted as a standard in the professional mental health community.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 02:55:02 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: new to this
Subject: Marianne is OK
Message:
>Sounds to me like she knows what she's talking about.

Marianne is a professional and certainly wants to do what she feels is best. I do know that being a professional isn't always what it is cranked up to be. Not to belittle her skills, but there have been professionals around for ages and we still have problems.

Sounds like you have a good handle on where you want to go. In this matter what you think is what really matters.
I am assuming that your ultimate goal is to improve yourself in some respect and that is why you went to a therapist in the first place. The ultimate measure of what happened depends on how you have progressed, not the few dollars that have been spent.

>However, he did use his position to introduce me to something that is clearly not accepted as a standard in the professional mental health community.

What society holds to be the standard may not be the best. In fact there is a constant change in standards that has been at work throughout history. Of course at a point in time we always think we know the best what is.

Regards,
CD

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 21:04:14 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: For Your Own Good
Message:
'What society holds to be the standard may not be the best.'

We're not talking 'society,' we're talking an organization of mental health professionals who've established guidelines to protect the client from a possible/potential unethical counselor. Big dif there. Your rationale almost sounds like the argument 'I'm hitting you for your own good.'

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:52:03 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: CD, you just don't understand
Message:
CD, you said:

What society holds to be the standard may not be the best. In fact there is a constant change in standards that has been at work thoughout history. Of course at a point in time we always think we know what the best is.

CD, that is total premie clap-trap. There are actual written legal standards that guide the practices of mental health practitioners. Violating them can mean losing your license and/or getting sued. So, you are not thinking very clearly when you say that the standards are constantly changing. They are not. And, we know what the best is at this time by those written standards. The standards are there to protect people. This guy used his professional position to try to recruit New to This into being a premie! That was unprofessional and probably unethical.

You have no idea what you are talking about here.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 12:58:39 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You are absolutely incorrect, CD
Message:
CD: I work with mental health experts on an almost daily basis in connection with my representation of death row inmates. Part of that work requires me to know about the ethics of psyhicatrists, psychologists, social workers, etc.-- anyone in the mental health field. In fact, I did an evidentiary hearing in federal court this year in which a substantial part of the focus of the decision about whether my client will be put to death concerned the ethics of a psychiatrist. Believe me, I know what I'm talking about here. I've spent literally hundreds of hours researching this issue.

Also, I have a brother who's an ex-premie who is a Ph.D. psychologist, and has been a practicing psychotherapist for over 30 years. I have spoken to him about the post by New To This, and he wholeheartedly agrees with the sentiments I have expressed as well as those of Paul, above.

How you could say that 'I could give a damn' about why someone would want to see a therapist is beyond me. You must not read my posts. I care very much, which is why I was so adamant that New to This follow up on the unethical advice she was given by the therapist.

I don't have an agenda, CD. You've got me confused with someone else.

No disinformation here. Just someone with a lot of experience to back up what I have said. And whose life is committed to actually saving peoples' lives.

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 17:47:04 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: really
Message:
>I care very much, which is why I was so adamant that New to This follow up on the unethical advice she was given by the therapist.

You have no idea what the total package of advice given by the therapist was other than the fact that M and K were mentioned. You have no idea what effect the advice had on the person other than the fact that the person read this web page and became apprehensive.

By the way. I am against the death penalty.

I'll bet you are a very intelligent, committed and hard working attorney. That does not mean I am going to buy all your arguments.

The country is full of well meaning Ph.D.s and lawyers yet we are still swamped in social, political and economic problems.
And Bill is collecting all the money on the sidelines.

Regards,
CD

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 20:21:49 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Wrong again, CD
Message:
CD: Not only am I well meaning, but I am educated in issues related to the ethical obligations of counsellors. Are you?

Contrary to your assertion, we do know some of the effect the referral to M had on New to This. New to This was concerned about the ethics of a counsellor who recommended M -- that is why the post was made in the first place. We didn't conjure this up on our own. It was the poster who brought up the ethical problems, not me.

As for your last sling at me, which states:

The country is full of well meaning Ph.D's and lawyers yet we are still swamped in social, political and economic problems. And Bill is collecting all the money on the sidelines.

What does that paragraph mean and how is it relevant to my post?

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 03:09:55 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: what we know
Message:
>CD: Not only am I well meaning, but I am educated in issues related to the ethical obligations of counsellors. Are you?

We are both over educated. But we still don't know where we are going. Yes, the ground does feel pretty solid until that earthquake starts up. And new ideas and laws are always being formulated. I find that quite interesting.

Anyway, sorry if I sounded like I was hammering on you personaly. Each of us in our own way is trying to do what we feel is correct given what we know today.

Best wishes to you in the year 2000.

CD

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 11:54:33 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Geez, CD
Message:
CD, I am not over educated. You don't seem to be either.You may not know where you're going, but I do. I'm going to San Quentin to visit my clients on Death Row right NOW!
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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 03:54:17 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: We do care about people!
Message:
CD,

We do care about people and in our opinion referring someone to Maharaji is potentially very harmful. That is based on our experience, of course. Again, if Maharaji and Knowledge is so effective then why have most likely 95% of it's users left? I'm not against meditating, mind you. I'm just against Maharaji. I think he is a greedy and possibly evil fraud. Not too mention a liar and selfish. And add out of touch.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 04:24:57 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Maybe You do
Message:
>Again, if Maharaji and Knowledge is so effective then why have most likely 95% of it's users left?

Lets focus on the story of Drek the Roger.
Now you say M is greedy. O.K.
So what was your cost?

>I think he is a greedy and possibly evil

I understand the greedy part.
But the evil part. I don't get that.

I have heard M give talks about people having a wonderful life to be grateful for. I have heard him speak about people around the world having a common bond that should cut across the divisions of wealth, politics and beliefs. I have heard him speak about experiencing your own answers when you practice meditation instead of trying to create answers with ideas.
These fundamentals I believe are correct.
Yet maybe he mixes it up with some sort of 'evil' as you say.

CD

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:46:23 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: new to this
Subject: Re: is this ethical?
Message:
It sounds unethical, but I don't know for sure. Someone may provide a definitive answer, though.

I see two things wrong with followers of Maharaji and probably any cult.

1. They vehemently deny that they are involved in a cult.

2. Speaking, unfortunately, from some of my own experience when I was involved in Maharaji's cult, it would seem the best opportunity to tell someone about Maharaji in an effort to lure them in is when they are having a problem and might be in a weak frame of mind.

I would suggest that you write him back and demand all of your money back or you will inform whatever licensing board there is. And after you get the money you should inform the licensing board.

Forum Lawyers? I'm not suggesting anything illegal, am I? If it is illegal I withdraw my suggestion.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 10:49:48 (EST)
From: Powerman
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: is this ethical?
Message:
People in fishing clubs also deny they're in a cult. Maharaji's a bonehead but he hardly runs a cult anymore. More like a fishing club. He used to sell snake oil, now it's just an empty jar.

The impropriety of of a therapist mentioning maharaji or knowledge really depends on the cimcumstances it was brought up in, and what was said. The truth is, therapists routinely give worse advice than maharaji and step breach more serious boundaries.

I knew a therapist, back in the day, who would mention maharaji when a client asked about her own experiences and why she seemed happy. It isn't hard to slip it in under the guise of just answering a question.

But the thing I find curious is the disparity of what knowledge used to be and what it is now. It used to be a cult asking for everything you have. Now it's a self-improvement club that doesn't even have a secret handshake.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 10:07:39 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: New to this
Subject: IT'S COMPLETELY UNETHICAL
Message:
Hi New,

I've been around the block quite a few times with therapists. For a licensed professional to refer you to Maharaji and Knowledge is comletely a breach of ethics and responsibility. It is always inappropriate for therapists to recommend or steer anyone toward any type of spiritual group or religion. That's not their purpose.

In fact, back in the 1970s I knew a male premie who was a counselor at a UCONN's teaching hospital which is a huge place, and he often spoke to me about wanting to tell people about knowledge but didn't believe it was appropriate. Now that's a person with knowledge back in the 70's.

I can't give advice, but if I were in your shoes, a letter to the state professional board of conduct would be the first step I took. I would consult an attorney. This 'therapist' was referring you to a CULT!!

You must make your own decision, but remember, malpractice insurance exists for a reason. And the therapist can make all their excuses. This is very very ungood behavior for a psychotherapist. I can't stress it enough.

Good luck,
Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:02:08 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Agree with Cynthia
Message:
This is incredibly unethical. This is what I would do. Is this person self employed or employed by a corporation? If the latter write to them. Include a printout of EV being listed as a cult on all the cult watch sites. Give them the info to let them see that it is indeed a religous cult you were being refered to. Also, does this person have any contracts with any insurance companies or HMO's? Write them too. Are there any local professional organizations? Write to them! And write the the social worker liscencing board in your state.

I know a person who was fired for trying to convert a patient to being a Jehovah's Witness while she lay vulnerable in her hospital bed. In a way you were even more vulnerable, A person who is in a personally stressful time and seeking counseling is by defination vulnerable. It is terrible that this professional used his postion to try to recruit you into a cult.

If you want to sue, do so. You will win. Hope he has good malpractice insurance.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 12:44:42 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: New to This
Subject: Very strongly agree with Cynthia & Susan
Message:
I am in complete agreement with Susan and Cynthia, New. I also encourage you to print out the information from this site and other anti cult sites and send it to the board in your state which licenses the professional you consulted, along with a letter describing what happened in your counselling session. New, had you ever heard of Maharaji before you saw this counsellor? If you had not, that is a very important piece of information for the licensing board to have.

Every state has a board which oversees professionals of this type. There should be a written code of ethics available from the licensing board which can educate you about the exact nature of any ethical violation which occurred here.

Even more importantly, what kind of disclosure did this therapist make concerning what Maharaji was offering to you? Did she tell you that he used to call himself the Lord of the Universe back in the '70's & '80's? Did she tell you he lives in a palatial residence in Malibu, California which he was able to purchase with donations from his 'devotees'? There is a great deal to this cult's history which makes it very, very controversial. Suggesting that Maharaji can cure your psychological discomfort given this type of history is potentially a very serious ethical violation, in my opinion. You should do something about this. I don't know if a lawsuit is the right thing, but if this therapist sent you to Maharaji, the therapist may have sent other patients there too. Your complaint can put a stop to this. Please notify your state licensing board. Copy out all these posts and send them along too.

Also, at what point in your theraputic relationship did the reference to Maharaji occur? Was it the first session? If so, and it sounds like it did, you need to do make the complaint as soon as possible. It sounds like the therapist is using his/her practice as a recruitment tool.

As for Nato and CD, they are both premies -- devotees of Maharaji, so take their posts for what they're worth.

Good luck finding another therapist.

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 10:48:27 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: ALL
Subject: P.S...Who is this NATO person?
Message:
Hello All,

I've been noticing this pesty NATO person around. Very paranoid, wouldn't you say?

Cynthia

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 13:44:46 (EST)
From: Yes
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: and make friends w him this time around(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:38:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Just another new friend, Cynthia -- be kind now (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 10:50:47 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: P.S...Who is this NATO person?
Message:
Yes, this 'nato' is just some cult member retread back with a new name. Rob, Url, who knows, who cares. I do think all Nato posts should be deleted, though.
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:54:09 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Singing at the Res!
Message:
Was anyone here ever graced enough to be allowed to sing XMAS carols at M's shack?
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 06:58:06 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Christmas at the Residence.
Message:
Hi Enough,

I co-wrote a Christmas play a few years ago, which we performed at the Reigate Residence on Christmas day.

Both my wife and I had parts in the play, so we had to take our children down to his house in Reigate too. We’d written a couple of walk on parts for them as ‘Ewoks’.

Our role was, ‘Peasant Troubadours brought up from the village to perform for the Master and his Family.’ We’d rehearsed the play for a few weeks- it was on a Star Wars theme, and carted the props and costumes down there early on Christmas day.

We spent most of the morning hanging around the servants house, until we were all escorted down to the ‘Garage’, which had been emptied of the fleet of luxury cars. Nobody except fulltime trusted staff walk around the ‘Residence’ unaccompanied. You are told where you can walk and where you can’t walk, and how to behave.

We took our places in the wings. Chairs had been set our for Maharaji and his family, and there were a few premies there too.

We performed the play. Everything went fine. The audience clapped politely.We took our bows, and waited in the wings until Maharaji and the family went back into their house. We took our costumes off, packed up the gear and were escorted off the premises.

Although our whole family had given up our Christmas day, free of charge (we were serving the Living Lord after all) the experience was definitely not in the spirit of Christmas. We were shunted in and shunted out, without even being offered a mince pie or a cup of tea. As a premie, ‘going to the residence and serving the master’ was considered to be ample reward in itself.

Looking back, the whole experience was pretty shitty. As a family, we celebrated Christmas properly, on the 26th.

I think this was my worst ever Christmas day.

We were treated like scumbags.

Anth the Festive.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 05:20:13 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: ***Best***
Message:
***Best***

Including Susan's comment on premies peeing on the rugs.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:07:31 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The guru has bad manners
Message:
Didn't his mom teach him anything? I am always struck by how rude he is as a host in these stories.

Having parties in the garage etc.... What does he think the premies are going to go pee on the carpet?

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 06:33:22 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Sit on the floor
Message:
Hi Susan,

Once I was invited into Maharaji's living room to watch a video with him. I sat on the settee and got comfortable. An instructor immediately came over and told me quietly I shouldn't sit on the sofa, but on the floor.

Anth the Sorebum

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 03:20:03 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Talk about disrespect!
Message:
I just found this little tidbit on Prabhupada Anti-Defamation Association (PADA) which looks to be one interesting site on our buddies the KRSNAs.

Fri Nov 10 15:28:56 1995

Dear prabhus, 11-10-95

PAMMHO. AGTSP.

Thanks for all of your responses. YES! Please DO forward our stuff to any section of the Internet where it will be helpful, such as newsgroups, scholars, hindus, etc. These false gurus are consistently not interested in any reasonable dialogue, so the best way to deal with this is just like Prabhupada always told us to deal with false gurus, bogus scientists, etc. ....i.e. expose their false propaganda. He even told the devotees to go urinate in Guru Maharaji's face, and go to his program and throw a pie in his face! Otherwise, he warned, people will think we agree with him. We HAVE to distinguish ourselves, he said. 'Silence means acceptance.' [maunam samyam rakshati] As we know also from history, the one Kaurava who spoke up, he got some mercy [from the Draupadi incident]. So, let us do that! So get our news out anyway you can. Yes, that is fine with me. I cannot do that in my present configuration. Questions:

[SNIPPED REST OF MESSAGE]

So, there it is and now I must make a confession. I've always been a plant. I am a devotee of the real Lord, Lord KRSNA.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 03:48:01 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: The Sell Out Conspiracy
Message:
Wow! This KRSNA stuff is better than Maharaji any day. What was I thinking?

As I write this I'm listening to a giant 2.8 meg Real Audio file that suggests that Prabhupada was poisoned with arsenic and mercury. This comes from tapes made of Prabhupada's last days that were sent out to all the devotees after his death.

Another interesting tidbit is how these two devotees are having a taped discussion:

The Topanga Canyon Pyramid House Talks
December 3, 1980

Dhira-Krsna Swami: If you read it with Bhaktivedanta purport, you're reading Bhagavad-gita under the guidance of a bona fide spiritual master.

Srila Hamsadutta: That's a fact.

Dhira-Krsna Swami: Now, of course, you'll find in Bhagavad-gita how to recognize the spiritual master, also.

Srila Hamsadutta: But still the person must be there. He must be present to give a practical example.

Dhira-Krsna Swami: Right. That's true.

Srila Hamsadutta: And that's where the whole thing went amiss. The practical example just wasn't there for people to see. You remember yourself in the beginning. How did we used to distribute books? Do you remember how?

Dhira-Krsna Swami: Well, I know what I was doing.

Srila Hamsadutta: Eight people would chant. Right? And two or three would distribute magazines or whatever, and they stayed always within the proximity of the vibration of the kirtan. Then they switched around. Sometimes another three or four persons would then sell and the others would chant. In this way there was the book, which you could take home and refer to, and there's the example of a person who's applying, actually exhibiting, renunciation in the presence of maya. Right in the thick of maya, here's a person who's coming out in robes. He's got a shaved head. He's singing Hare Krsna. He looks very nice, and if you speak with him, he's a gentleman. That element is quite lacking. It became more and more two people chanting and eight people running around. Then wigs and this and that and it just got further and further removed until it's so far gone, that the public just says, 'Wait a minute.' When you read that Syracuse Decision, that's what the judge said, 'They do everything except tell you about their religion. They give everything but the very thing which they are supposed to be giving - their spiritual paraphernalia - their book or their record.' So they concluded that these people are misusing their First Amendment rights for soliciting funds. They're not interested. That was the conclusion it came to, and when you examine it, that is the only conclusion they can come to, because in fact, we have artificially inflated our standard of living. For the sake of whatever we may say, but it didn't work. 'It we have a big building, the public will like it.' But is there any devotee here who was attracted to the building? It was 26 Second Avenue when Jayadvaita Maharaja came, and the place was full of cockroaches, and everything was happening in one room.

In this way, in the name of making an impression to the public, we became more and more involved in methods that were very successful for soliciting funds, but not very successful for attracting people's faith or awakening their faith to Krsna consciousness. In fact, the only opulence a devotee has to exhibit is his renunciation and his knowledge. You can't compete. Just like this house, it's very nice, but there are probably hundreds of them on this hill. That kind of exhibition is secondary. The primary exhibition is, 'Is he renounced? Is he knowledgeable? Is he pure?' Purity is the force.

We've gone too far away from that. When there's someone who actually is renounced, it attracts people, just like Prabhupada attracted us. And his knowledge attracted us.

[snipped]

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:16:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: The question is not 'would you cut off your head for your guru but rather ......
Message:
The lawyer I 'articled' with here in Victoria (forced apprenticeship in order to get 'called to the bar' -- English tradition. Alive in Canada not the states) had an interesting story. Apparently, some time in the late seventies or maybe early eighties, but once upon a time for sure, one of Cowlips' ten successors (i.e. one of the ten 'guru's who took over ISKON after Cowlips died) lived in Victoria. He was the tall, tall gangly one. He was here because he'd pretty well gone into semi-retirement and had moved here with his wife and a couple of unshakable devotees.

This guy retained my lawyer friend to sue Rolling Stone which had published an article defaming ISKON as -- get this -- a cult. So he met my friend a number of times, got to know him, told him his life story in preparation for the suit and everything.

Anyway, what happened was that he ran off with a younger woman is what happened. Ran off th London where he started this funny group called the Acid Hare Krshnas. Yes, they'd do acid and chant -- guess again -- (what, you've heard this before?) Hare Krshna.

Menwhile, of course, the wife's back in Victoria and fuming. And who's with her here but the two unshakable devotees,the guys the master had tried to shoe off but couldn't. Apparently, she's so pissed at her husband for dumping her like that that she starts badmouthing him with deep, dark vigour. Eventually affects the 'hearts' of the two devotees who turn on their former God and fly to London where they crash one of his acid chanting parties and cut his head off.

No shit. It's all in the book Monkey on a Stick.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 03:58:48 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Those guys gave cults a bad name
Message:
I always liked it when they'd come around. Had a pretty catchy tune!
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 04:30:37 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Yes, but still a cult still a cult like our old cult
Message:
There's a mountain of information on these guys and I cannot really digest it all, but I'm assuming that there is still a battle going on for control of the empire. Seems that the pedophile guru lineage molesters are being challenged by the non-molestors.

Although my present theory says that Maharaji will never die as he will eventually do an L. Ron Hubbard and live on his yacht and send pre-recorded videos up to the satellites well beyond his death, I am doing everything I can to ensure that I live long enough to see what happens when Maharaji does die and how and to whom the power will be passed.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 14:35:27 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Krishnas got prosecuted too
Message:
I believe that the feds prosecuted the Krishnas too, back in US District Court in West Virginia. It may have been a RICO prosecution, and I think there was a murder involved too. Anyway, it was a big conspiracy case & people went to prison.

Let's count the cult prosecutions:

Moon -- personally, for tax fraud
Rajneesh -- for conspiring to kill US Attorney Chas Turner in Oregon, & for fraud
Krishnas -- for conspiracy to do something, can't recall

Who else can we recall?

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 20:47:22 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Waco? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 21:54:15 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I'd add that to the list, also Synanon
Message:
I think the Branch Davidians belong on the list too. Also Synanon. They put a snake in the mail box of one of the anti Synanon lawyers. Synanon got prosecuted in federal court in Sacramento, I think. The snake trick was one of the reasons they got indicted.

Ok, now I'm bracing myself for the endless barrage of posts with lawyer - snake comparisons, and comments about how it is that someone could get indicted for sending a snake after an attorney, etc. I'm READY!

Love to all, Marianne

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 22:06:51 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Then you know the joke about lawyers/snakes and no skid marks, right? :-))(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 17:55:43 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Krishnas got prosecuted too
Message:
In my speed reading of the PADA information the child molestation was world wide. It would be reported to the KRSNA authorities and nothing would be done. We're talking like pictures in the news with one of the big wheels being massaged by 50 young boys.

There was a lot of woman beating, 'marriage breaking', drug smuggling, mysterious disappearances, murder, absconding with funds, etc.

Actually, with hopefully the exception of murder (although there was that agya dream murder scene in Florida) I think many of those things also occurred in Maharaji's cult.

Interesting about the KRSNAs is at some point when they were getting busted many of the child molesters were given tickets to get out of the country to avoid prosecution. Sound familiar.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 14:41:01 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Scientology?? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 14:51:08 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: Scientology??
Message:
I know the Scientologists have been sued civilly but I don't know that they have been the target of a federal criminal prosecution. Anyone else?
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 01:06:39 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Posts below by Deputy Dog are Totally Irrelevant
Message:
DD: No one here is going to launch off on Scientology. Feel free to do so over on the premie sites since you're so excited about it.
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 00:06:36 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Scientology??!!
Message:
Marianne,

Thanks for mentioning Scientology. And, just for a change of pace, why don't you exes go after the Church of Scientology for a while. Come on, I'm sure you consider it a cult! Let's see some real biting criticisms of Scientology and some nasty insults hurled at L. Ron. Make up some nasty nick name like, well Jim, I'm sure you can come up with something.

Come on, let's see something libelous. Just for a laugh! Let's see some serious sarcasm, insults, criticisms, put downs, all hurled at the Church of Scientology and the tech. Are you up for it? Come on, I'm sure you can do it. Attack L. Ron and Scientologists with the same verve and panache that you go after M and premies.

I can't wait!

Dep

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 00:12:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Oh, I really RESPECT you now!!!
Message:
Dog,

I really respect the way you think about this. I particularly respect the way you think that ex-premies would even begin to care about some other cult as much as the one we got stuck in. Yes, Dog, I must say that the more you post the more reasons you give me to feel a deep, profound respect for you.

Love,

Jim

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:03:47 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you are clever!
Message:
Jim,

I tried to lure you into criticizing Scientology and you didn't take the bait. I guess you know that Scientologists are not as mellow as premies and they respond with a vengeance to any criticism. We premies, on the other hand, don't give a shit.

But you didn't take the bait! Jim, once again you have proven that you are far too clever for us naughty people. Clever to the point of being vulpine.

Dep

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 00:47:19 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you've got to SPREAD it around
Message:
Jim,

You more than anyone else knows what is right! I'm SURE you are against the Church of Scientology and I want you to state it openly here on this site, for all to see. You are the judge, the arbiter!

You call the shots here on this planet don't you? So stand up, be a man, and criticize this Church! I dare you!

Come on, criticize what you don't understand. You are good at it!

Oh yeah, and thanks for the respect, you have no idea what it means to me.

Dep

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 06:56:20 (EST)
From: octopus
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Jim, you've got to SPREAD it around
Message:
So DepDog wants to '...see some serious sarcasm, insults, criticisms, put downs, all hurled at the Church of Scientology ...'

Is that all he sees us as being good for?

I guess some of us prefer a more sober approach, viz:

SECT LOSES BATTLE TO BECOME A CHARITY

Scientology 'is not a religion'
James Meek
Friday December 10, 1999

The controversial Church of Scientology had its application to be recognised as a religion turned down yesterday.

After more than three years' deliberation, the Charity Commissioners rejected the organisation's claim saying that it did not qualify because it was not a religion and did not benefit the public.

Critics of Scientology portray the organisation as a wacky cult that
brainwashes individuals and exists to make money.

But adherents say such hostility amounts to religious persecution and that Scientology puts them on the path to spiritual salvation and 'supreme being'.

The sect has won recognition in the US, Australia and Sweden with the help of celebrity followers such as John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Nicole Kidman and Kirstie Alley. Its status in Britain is as an overseas arm of a charity registered in Australia.

Other countries regard it as a dangerous cult. In France one of its former leaders was convicted of fraud last month, and members are closely watched by the government. Germany also refuses to recognise it as a genuine religion.

In Britain, there is no independent verification of the Scientologists' claim to have 100,000 adherents The sect says that it has more than 8m followers worldwide.

UK Scientology spokesman Graeme
Wilson said yesterday: 'This is a biased and discriminatory decision, which is wrong on the law and wrong on the facts.'

He said that the Church of Scientology would appeal to the high court against the ruling.

The charity commissioners said in a statement yesterday that the sect was not charitable 'as an organisation established for the advancement of religion' or 'to promote the moral and spiritual welfare or improvement of the community'.

Its core activities were 'auditing' and 'training' adherents, the commissioners ruled, which were of private, not public benefit.

Science writer L Ron Hubbard founded Scientology in 1954. He died in 1986 and the organisation is now run from Los Angeles by a Heber Jentzsch.

Mr Wilson said the sect had 'no figurehead' in Britain.

Initiates to Scientology are taken through a series of steps to reach higher levels of knowledge, which critics say is brainwashing for which adherents have to pay through the nose.

Scientologists compare the process with the Buddhist path to enlightenment.

Disenchanted ex-Scientologists say at the highest level initiates are exposed to Hubbard's cosmology, which holds that in the distant past billions of surplus beings from other planets were herded to earth and slaughtered by an evil alien called Xenu. These dead beings still haunt us and are the cause of all ills.

'I haven't done these levels,' said Mr Wilson. 'I've seen some of the rubbish written about such things and I'm assured by those who have reached these levels that they are completely untrue. You might find some elements of truth in there.'

John Travolta, identified recently as an 'Operating Thetan' - at the highest level on the Scientology ladder - is making an $80m film of a Hubbard novel called Battlefield Earth, in which he plays an alien.

He denies that the film is a recruiting picture for Scientology.

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited, 1999.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:26:40 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Saddam Maharaji
Message:
Like the well respected leader of Iraq, L. Ron and a few other solid citizens, our Maharaji now has the capability of taping many shows and presenting them to the viewers as live. Surely, he would never dub in canned laughter. Would he?
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 04:45:44 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Another find -The Nonduality Salon
Message:
The Nonduality Salon has a page called Satsang for Everyone and has this:

SOME DETAILS REGARDING SATSANG QUALITY:
DIALOGUE BETWEEN CHARLES SCHUMAN (QUESTIONER) AND PETROS:

#1: Tell me, now, if you would. Do you find that it is the guru, or the crowd in it's expectations that create those great vibes?

#2: It's the gestalt created when the guru and the group get together. A strong central presence can get everyone on the same wavelength. Without it, it's just a tea-party!

#1: If the guru is just faking it, in your estimation, how does it effect the vibes?

#2: Most people in the group probably couldn't tell, not having subtle enough discernment or not enough experience in satsangs with other teachers. They will follow the lead of everyone else, however. A few people with more discernment might sense that something isn't quite right, especially if the teacher speaks at length. But such people may decide not to say anything and just go along for the ride anyway and chalk it up to experience.

For instance, I just attended another Maharaji video tonight, with about ten people attending. There was nothing wrong with what Maharaji said or the way he said it, and everyone was very silent and attentive. But I still sense
something amiss about this particular group, but I can't put it into words yet.

[end of excerpt]

I'll tell you what's wrong! Maharaji is what's wrong.

Also, this observation is very interesting:

A few people with more discernment might sense that something isn't quite right, especially if the teacher speaks at length.

I'd say that Maharaji is spending less and less time on stage. Sometimes it's less than an hour.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:00:29 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Another find - NewsOne.Net alt.cult.maharaji
Message:
NewsOne.Net alt.cult.maharaji

Please don't lose whatever respect you might have me if you were offended by the messages posted on this newsgroup.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 05:56:19 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Another find - respectfully for the newagers
Message:
Erik is a premie and an astrologer. He can help answer your questions at ASK, OF ERIK, QUESTIONS. Ok, it's going to cost you $50, but Erik got this little problem, you see. He's got this money hungry guru monkey on his back and he wasted his youth living in an ashram serving his guru and never did learn a real trade or go to school.

and for the love lorn try PERSONAL COMPATIBILITY KIT

And to learn more about astrology check this out Lore

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 11:40:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Hip hip horay! (?) -- sorry (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 00:44:23 (EST)
From: la-ex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: welcome Suzanne
Message:
Dear Suzanne-just a quick note to tell you that your post meant a great deal to me. You seem very sincere and I am glad that the forum has helped you and your husband understand more about some of the inner workings of the cult and about m himself. It can be scary, but also liberating to leave the confines of the group, and a great learning process as well.Be well, take care and keep in touch with all of your friends here on the forum if it helps you in your journey...
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Date: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 21:50:34 (EST)
From: JHB (John Brauns)
Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: A Challenge to Nato
Message:
Someone called Nato expressed some negative views about my life recently. This person apparently knows me. They have me at a disadvantage as I know no one called Nato except a transatlantic military alliance which I have no involvement in.

So my challenge is this. If this person seriously wants to discuss the guru or the cult with me, here I am. I live in London, my phone number is in the book. My email address is above. I have no army. I have no Guru's grace to protect me. I don't know if there is a God. I have no weapons except my honesty.

Can you, Nato, take on such a mighty enemy?

John.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 07:12:09 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Nato
Subject: Nato - What are you afraid of? (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 22:13:31 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JHB (John Brauns)
Subject: Nato is also Donkey God (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 21:54:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JHB (John Brauns)
Subject: Have you tried treating him with respect, John? I hear that works ......(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 16, 1999 at 22:03:50 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Stop taking the piss....
Message:
.....Jim, this is serious. Someone is after me and I want to choose the battlefield. I have placed my guns above this small pass that my enemy will have to negotiate to reach me. Please be quiet so my position is not revealed.

John.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 01:29:21 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: They have the advantage in guerilla warfare
Message:
JHB,

Unfortunately these creeps often operate using guerilla warfare tactics and it's hard to pin them down. As you know they will apparently disappear, but a short while later someone sounding very much the same will pop out of nowhere with a different handle.

Nevertheless, we need to show them the necessary respect.

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Date: Fri, Dec 17, 1999 at 01:37:10 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Yes, yes, respect I tell you! That is the way! (nt)
Message:
nt
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