Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 14
From: Wed, Dec 15, 1999 To: Thurs, Dec 30, 1999 Page: 3 Of: 5


Enough -:- The Maharaj Ji's Tale -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 11:41:48 (EST)
__ bb -:- Here is a version I saw him tell. -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 21:32:55 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia -:- That's Absolutely Disgusting -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 16:34:52 (EST)
__ __ __ bb -:- Re: That's Absolutely Disgusting -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:28:44 (EST)
__ Cynthia -:- Re: The Maharaj Ji's Tale -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 14:37:10 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Re: The Maharaj Ji's Tale -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:32:39 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- This is the story they threatened me with as I walked away -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 14:47:03 (EST)
Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: This is the story they threatened me with as I walked away -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 00:49:32 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- GEEZ, ANDY, YOU MUST BE A REALIZED... -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 16:44:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Cynthia, I'll pray for you -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 22:03:10 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey Andrew -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 07:00:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: Hey Anth -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 15:03:06 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Detached? -:- Fri, Dec 24, 1999 at 06:52:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Maybe yes, maybe no -- who the fuck cares anyway? -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 00:54:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: Maybe yes, maybe no -- who the fuck cares anyway? -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 01:01:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Currant Incarnation -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 07:03:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: Currant Incarnation -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 15:06:27 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Re: Currant Incarnation -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:22:24 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Currant Incarnation -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:54:20 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The Vine Love Mission ?(nt) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:10:30 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Re: Currant Incarnation -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 12:57:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Is this Mike as in 'Mike'? Nice to hear from you again -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:58:13 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Re: Is this Mike as in 'Mike'? Nice to hear from you again -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:34:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Seriously? I really can't tell from your post if you're smiling or not (nt) -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 01:04:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Just the inner smile..... -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 01:16:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Our next life. -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 07:05:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- If you actually believe that then one of two things are true -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 01:19:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:57:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ hamzen -:- Re: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 17:38:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 15:43:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 16:02:21 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 16:59:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Another explanation Jim. -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 07:07:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: Another explanation Jim. -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:53:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ of this world -:- Gerrards of this world that protect the Jagdeos -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 03:20:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: This is the story they threatened me with as I walked away -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 14:53:54 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Mike -:- I thought it was supposed to be merciful -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 13:11:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- I'm Dead -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 10:12:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: I'm Dead -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 10:48:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- And they walk among us. (nt) -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:26:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: This is the story they threatened me with as I walked away -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:08:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Why, Thank You... (nt) -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:29:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yeah, that's why I stopped shopping at Bijan and Gucci -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:01:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Yeah, that's why I stopped shopping at Bijan and Gucci -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:28:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia -:- Many Variations on the Same Theme -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 17:13:58 (EST)

Roger eDrek -:- Making an assumption here -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 05:37:26 (EST)
__ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: Making an assumption here -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 10:47:56 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yeah, sure. Got me convinced. -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 14:54:44 (EST)
__ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: Yeah, sure. Got me convinced. -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 17:47:01 (EST)
__ __ __ ANDREW GERRARD -:- My pleasure. (nt) -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:02:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I see you changed your User-Agent -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:07:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Tickets please -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 23:59:14 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Very good, Cerberus. You're really getting good. -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 03:04:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Re: Very good, Cerberus. You're really getting good. -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 02:24:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: Very good, Cerberus. You're really getting good. -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 14:01:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ CD -:- TCP/IP and info -:- Thurs, Dec 23, 1999 at 01:28:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: Very good, Cerberus. You're really getting good. -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 04:26:17 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Don't be so humble -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 04:30:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Andrew Gerrard -:- Re: Don't be so humble -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:47:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Selene -:- Re: Don't be so humble -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 11:23:22 (EST)

Loafji -:- a good site -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 20:00:49 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Re: a good site -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 01:50:41 (EST)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Re: a good site -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 20:41:31 (EST)

Mark -:- The Last Degree of Separation -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:18:01 (EST)
__ bb -:- Re: The Last Degree of Separation -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:30:05 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: The Last Degree of Separation -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 22:43:56 (EST)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- JHB, I understand what he's saying -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:51:12 (EST)
__ __ Monmot -:- Re: The Last Degree of Separation -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 12:16:04 (EST)
__ __ Mark -:- Re: The Last Degree of Separation -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 02:14:47 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: The Last Degree of Separation -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 07:23:30 (EST)
__ Monmot -:- Re: The Last Degree of Separation -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 21:40:44 (EST)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Interrupt the Separation -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 20:18:36 (EST)
__ __ Mike -:- Re: Interrupt the Separation -:- Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:43:27 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Mike, you are a moron, fuck off! (nt) -:- Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 23:42:57 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Mike, be in the world yet not of the world, it's called peace (nt) -:- Thurs, Dec 23, 1999 at 00:15:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Do you mean -:- Thurs, Dec 23, 1999 at 17:59:37 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Mike, I can be at peace and still think you're a moron (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 24, 1999 at 00:34:48 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mike -:- Re: Mike, I can be at peace and still think you're a moron (nt) -:- Fri, Dec 24, 1999 at 11:12:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sorry I thought you were Michael the priest (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 25, 1999 at 17:47:07 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- Hey look at what Dog said! -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 22:48:12 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- JHB - What I said -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:41:34 (EST)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Re: Hey look at what Dog said! -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:09:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Mili, Dog, where's your stamina, guys? -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:50:42 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Mili, Dog, where's your stamina, guys? -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 16:12:05 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Zzzzzzziiiiiinnnnnnggggggg!! (nt) -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 16:18:55 (EST)
__ Loafji -:- Re: The Last Degree of Separation -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:43:23 (EST)

Loafji -:- Degrees of seperation -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 14:11:12 (EST)
__ AJW -:- Wheat and Chaff -:- Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 06:48:30 (EST)
__ Anon -:- Re: Degrees of separation -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 20:48:35 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- ***Best*** -:- Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 04:20:59 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- Really well-said, Anon (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 21:21:49 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Fabulous post, Anon! nt -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 21:06:14 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: Degrees of seperation -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:01:42 (EST)
__ __ Loafji -:- Re: Degrees of seperation -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:39:33 (EST)
__ __ Loafji -:- Re: Degrees of seperation -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:37:57 (EST)

Cheryl -:- Gratitude -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 10:22:35 (EST)
__ Enough -:- ? for Cheryl -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 11:04:07 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: Gratitude -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 10:29:25 (EST)

Cheryl -:- Question -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:31:02 (EST)
__ octopus -:- Re: Lila question -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:51:58 (EST)
__ __ Cheryl -:- Re: Lila question -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 10:12:29 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: Question -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:43:38 (EST)
__ __ Marianne -:- Re: Question -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 12:23:46 (EST)

octopus -:- mark of ...Cainer? -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 07:45:56 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: mark of ...Cainer? -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:49:39 (EST)
__ __ octopus -:- Re: mark of ...Cainer? -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:56:25 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: mark of ...Cainer? -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 09:31:01 (EST)
__ Judas -:- Re: mark of ...Cainer? -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:25:05 (EST)

Jean-Michel -:- New light on darshan & 'experience' -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 04:20:10 (EST)
__ Deputy Dog -:- J-M, so kids can't line up to see Santa any more? (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:09:17 (EST)
__ __ Jim -:- What's THAT supposed to mean? (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:37:18 (EST)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Well it's kinda like darshan isn't it? (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 22:18:18 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- You stupid moron -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 22:37:38 (EST)
__ Anon -:- I recommend this read for anyone. -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:10:41 (EST)
__ Michael -:- Re: New light on darshan & 'experience' -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 14:32:33 (EST)
__ Jim -:- Thanks so much, JM -- really interesting for sure (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 12:11:24 (EST)
__ Susan -:- Thanks JM! Fascinating! (nt) -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 11:46:59 (EST)
__ Enough -:- 'Welcome to another day in GMJ's world' -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 05:54:41 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Rawat's family SHOULD read this paper IMO -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 06:23:20 (EST)
__ __ __ BB -:- Re: Rawat's family SHOULD read this paper IMO -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 14:59:31 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- Re: New light on darshan & 'experience' -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 04:58:45 (EST)
__ __ Michael -:- Re: New light on darshan & 'experience' -:- Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 10:35:19 (EST)


Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 11:41:48 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Maharaj Ji's Tale
Message:
I'm sure most of you remember the old yarn Mahahaha told us many(and I mean many)times about the guy who spaced out the Knowledge and got lost in the maya for many years. This guy spaced out by crossing a stream(against his lord's advice). Years later, this man in total despair wandered back by chance to the same stream and there was his lord waiting to save him.(repeat after me-PRAISE THE LORD!)

So what was Mr. Rawat telling us here.

1-He is that Lord today
2-bad things will happen if you space out
3-even if you space out, he has ultimate control
and will save you

I used to always wonder why he told the same story over and over. I always figured it was because most of us didn't understand and he was just a patient loving master.

Now, unless I'm currently lost in the maya,I just see his tales as manipulation techniques. In my opinion, this man has committed heinous acts against many people. Interestingly enough, he cautions his stooges against cheat and deceit. Well, if he is not the living lord as he most certainly claimed, then cheat and deceit should just be the opening charges.

Is this what they call venting?

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 21:32:55 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Here is a version I saw him tell.
Message:
The guy went for a swim and met a girl at the riverbank and
went with her and had kids and a farm and a flood
came and swept the wife and kids off the roof and drowned
them and he saw the lord god almighty guru and he said
'what happened to my wife? what happened to my kids?'
and the guru said 'what about my glass of water?'

He said that during the I am god and you better belive it
era.
bastard.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 16:34:52 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: bb
Subject: That's Absolutely Disgusting
Message:
Bill,

When did he say that one? That's very very cold. Evidence of his sociopathology. He can't even keep it out of his freaking satsang!!

BASTARD

Cynthia

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 09:28:44 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: That's Absolutely Disgusting
Message:
Hi Cynthia,
I think it was in 79.
I saw the video more than once and heard it in person also.
Might have been at a hans jayanti but I bet I have it in
print here.
He was SO harsh and extreme that those tattered
wrecks that still are bound up in this were cemented
in there during that era. Him talking like that with all
the crown and outfits and claims over and over and
arti... I can hardly believe I was trapped by something
so outragious and false.

Cynthia, why dont you email me so I can ask you something.
bburke@rocketmail.com

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 14:37:10 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Enough
Subject: Re: The Maharaj Ji's Tale
Message:
Dear Enough,

I remember that story well. It went like this (as recently told by Mahahaa): The devotee was walking with his Master and came to a tree by the river. The Master sat to rest and asked his devotee to get him a drink of water from the river. When the devotee got to the stream, he saw how refreshing the river looked and decided to take a quick swim. He was forced by the river's currents downstream where he came to another bank. When he looked up he saw a beautiful woman with whom he immediately fell in love. They got married and he lived his life in great happiness, had many children and grandchildren and completely forgot about his Master.

Then one day the devotee decided to take another dip in the river and was washed up stream. When he rose from the river bank, his Master was still sitting there waiting for the glass of water. 'Oh Lord I am sorry, he said, I completely forgot.' The Master answered 'Forgot what?'

My take on this, because he has used this story again and again (recently, too) is that m uses the story to convey to premies that their master is always there, is beyond time and space, no matter how long you are gone, he will always accept you back, he is all-forgiving, and LILA!!!!

In fact, when I tried to go back to Mahaha, it was that story that I clung to because I felt so guilty for being away from him for so long.

Now I know how effective his manner of brainwashing is. Just repeat the same crap over and over and eventually it will become part of a premies thinking processes.

As far as repetition, I don't think I could stand one more fucking analogy about water and the powers of water. In one video I saw last summer, he was talking about water and how it is so humble, etc., etc., yet it can destroy civilizaitons. No kidding, Einstein!!! M was holding up a glass of water and said (while he was referring to it's power), 'if I was sitting here holding a gun, you would be pretty afraid, yet here is this humble glass of water that in this state is harmless, but SOOOO powerful.'!

YUCK! In retrospect, I was really stupid to listen to all the crap he has said over the years as if he invented it! He says so many things that are elementary and I think, an insult to everyone's intelligence.

Be well, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:32:39 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Re: The Maharaj Ji's Tale
Message:
Yes, Cynthia, but I think the story I heard was that he married the woman, had children, and become well-to-do. And THEN a hard rain fell causing a flood and he saw his children and wife get swept away and drown. Eventually, the flood took him and he was underwater dying when the hand of Guru Maharaji pulled him out and asked the student, 'Now do you understand what maya is?'

In the beginning of the story before going to the stream the student asked his Guru Maharaji 'what is maya?'

Yes, it's very interesting to consider how many times we were told that story and the implication that Maharaji was Lord of the Universe and now he isn't. Seems like everyone who bought that story is all dressed up with nowhere to go. In fact, in big trouble if Maharaji ain't the Lord.

Come on, Maharaji. What's the story going to be? You can't leave people hanging like that. At some point you need to return to being LOTU and come save each and everyone one of us who bought that story. It's like he implanted a slow acting time-delay poison in everyone's brain.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 14:47:03 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: This is the story they threatened me with as I walked away
Message:
As I left the ashram that early summer night in 80 or 81, Peter MacDonald, a real cypher of a personality, a true Heavy Breather who's idea of interpersonal contact was staring (looking for Maharaji in the other person and a game which, I do admit with great embarrassment, having palyed myself in earlier years) stood between me and the door. Why? To try to tell me this story again. To remind me that I was plunging into the maya. That I was leaving the light and diving into darkenss, confusion and endless despair. Remember Treasure Island? This was the premie equivalent of the 'black spot'. A curse.

And did they talk about me in the ashram that night? Ha! My ears still burn just to imagine it.

Funny, of course, how now there is no ashram, all those self-righteous brothers have gotten themselves every bit as 'caught up in the maya' as I am, relationships, jobs, taxes, etc. Maharaji denies the whole trip and, lo and behold they're still calling me an 'asshole'. Go figure, eh? Hilarious.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 00:49:32 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: This is the story they threatened me with as I walked away
Message:
lo and behold they're still calling me an 'asshole'. Go figure, eh?

Maybe that's because you ARE still an asshole?

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 16:44:58 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: GEEZ, ANDY, YOU MUST BE A REALIZED...
Message:
ASSHOLE BY NOW!!!

Who appointed you defender of the master manipulator?

If you think this place is so dark and smelly, why do you persist? Can't resist?

I don't expect you to understand, Andy--you're in a CULT!

You may be a true believer/experiencer in m's world, but the object of your devotion is a fraud.

Thanks for trying to convert us though, it's nice to know we exes have all made the right decision in our lives.

Good luck in Mahaaaha land,

Cynthia

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 22:03:10 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Cynthia
Subject: Cynthia, I'll pray for you
Message:
After a long meditation on blissful light, Maharaji came to me as in a dream and bade me come here and try rescue those poor souls who were not yet too far gone.

Yes, it is dark and smelly in here, but when one holds onto the golden nectar within, one can transcend such grossness and be as the lotus, floating above in peace and stillness.

Let your mind rant and rave all it wishes, in fact, get it out of your system, for when it tires, then can your heart come through and finally hear the truth of what I am saying....Maharaji is the Lord, he IS the one your heart has been searching for all these years, and yes, he DOES still love you despite all the unpleasantries your mind is making you speak.

Good luck in Hell,

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 07:00:46 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Hey Andrew
Message:
Hi Andrew,

If all you can do is come on our forum and insult people, you should take a serious look at yourself.

Did you practice this morning? Did you go and listen to the words of wisdom from your master at the weekend?

Have you done service, and handed over any dosh lately?

I sense your soul is in danger and you are neglecting the precious gift from your Lord.

You seem full of abuse and bad feelings. You are obviously not centred or in 'that place'. In face Andrew, you seem to be wasting your life away.

Stay away from this place. It is full of darkness, confusion and the wailing of lost souls. Go to your room lick some snot for a bit, and shed the dark vibes that you are obviously picking up here.

Write out a cheque. Watch a video. Surrender.

Jai Sat Chit Anand.

Anth the Centred

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 15:03:06 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Hey Anth
Message:
Thank you for expressing so much concern over my well-being, there is hope for you yet.

The truth is, being in the place I am, it easy to remain detached and play with the world. I harbor no bad feelings toward Jim or even you, and yes, I have fulfilled all your expectations of me today, as ever.

I come as a beacon to those lost souls you mention, the bad vibes surrounding them are transmuted into love and healing energy by the power of Grace.

Now fuck off and mind your own business.

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Date: Fri, Dec 24, 1999 at 06:52:24 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Detached?
Message:
'Detached'?

Isn't that just another word for 'avoiding responsibilities'.

Really Andrew, you're living in acid damage land. Detached is just another bullshit hippy concept.

Get your head out the Lard's arse and get a life.

Anth the Attached.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 00:54:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Maybe yes, maybe no -- who the fuck cares anyway?
Message:
Andrew,

That was easy, eh? A very, very easy little joke. But really, who gives a damn anyway? This page is about Maharaji. What's your opinion of him?

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 01:01:35 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Maybe yes, maybe no -- who the fuck cares anyway?
Message:
OK cheap shot, couldn't resist it, you're right, who cares, unless the demeanor of the participants adds/subtracts credence from the point of views expressed?

My opinion of Maharaji? He is the current incarnation of our Creator, of course, and if you'd listened to that brother who was trying to save you from jumping out of the ashram, you would have realized this for yourself by now.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 07:03:18 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Currant Incarnation
Message:
Andrew,

I didn't know Maharaji had incarnated as a currant. Has he come to establish Fruit on Earth? Is he anything to do with the California Raisins Jazz Band?

Anth the dried fruit.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 15:06:27 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Currant Incarnation
Message:
Anth,

I do believe you are confusing Him with the Sultana of Brunei.

AG

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:22:24 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Re: Currant Incarnation
Message:
Isn't he raisin consciousness in the Middle East?

Anth the dried pun.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 20:54:20 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Currant Incarnation
Message:
More like the line from a Langston Hughes poem:

'What happens to a dream deferred, it becomes like a raisin in the sun.'

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:10:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: The Vine Love Mission ?(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 12:57:44 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Currant Incarnation
Message:
Ya beat me to it..... damn....
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 20:58:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Is this Mike as in 'Mike'? Nice to hear from you again
Message:
Mike,

Is that you? How's it going? Glad to hear from you again and all that.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:34:19 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Is this Mike as in 'Mike'? Nice to hear from you again
Message:
Yep... It's me.... the New-Age Redneck! (He says as he spits his chaw into the nearest ecologically-sound and properly recycled recepticle :-)
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 01:04:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Seriously? I really can't tell from your post if you're smiling or not (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 01:16:57 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just the inner smile.....
Message:
...I'm sure there's an emoticon for that somewhere.

Why wouldn't I be serious? It's a wonderful thing to realize, I'm just sorry you missed out. Better luck in your next life eh?

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 07:05:56 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Our next life.
Message:
Andrew,

You said, 'Better luck in your next life.'

We're already in our next life, and having much better luck than in our previous 'cult life' (the one your still in).

So, better luck in your next life too Andy- lets hope you make it before you die.

Anth the Reincarnatedbackintothehumanrace.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 01:19:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true
Message:
If you actually believe that classic, core cult doctrine then one of two things must be true: either you haven't read most of the real information available here (e.g. all the stuff on JM's site including the 'charisma' article he just put up) or you're committed to maintaining faith in the face of reason.
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:57:11 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true
Message:
I suppose you can't bring yourself to offer the third option: that you are actually quite wrong. For every person who has a real experience of any kind in life, there are probably a hundred more bent on ridiculing them at whatever cost to truth or conscience.
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 17:38:05 (EST)
From: hamzen
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Re: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true
Message:
And for every one hundred of those people who have a real experience and put a name to it, 99 will attribute it to some guru.

Maybe some survivors on some distant planet, long after the earth is uninhabitable,will finally twig the obvious.

There's always a price to pay,vwhat's been yours?

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 15:43:58 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Re: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true
Message:
For every person who has a real experience of any kind in life, there are probably a hundred more bent on ridiculing them at whatever cost to truth or conscience.

Can you see the absurdity of this statement? There is absolutely NO evidence that what you say is true. Get it?

No of course you don't. You're in a cult.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 16:02:21 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true
Message:
Well Gerry, I believe the evidence lies aplenty on these pages of yours. Not that the ratio of premies to ex-premies runs into triple digits perhaps, but you must admit there are hoards of you chaps swrming all over anyone who tries to share the truth of their experiences. No matter, I coming to realize that is your karma. Mine is to try to show you a way back to His feet.
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 16:59:18 (EST)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Re: If you actually believe that then one of two things are true
Message:
Time and again, people here have affirmed and admitted the 'reality' of these experiences. Have you read the article about Darshan and Experiences posted on JM's site?

I have not read a single post by anyone, including by Jim, 'ridiculing' peoples experiences of meditation or darshan. Alternative explanations to the theory that M is the cause of these experiences, yes, but no denying that something happens to people intently engaged in meditation and devotion.

It's true there are 'hoard of us chaps' responding to your cult thinking. After all, this is the EX-premie forum. What did you expect? We certainly aren't welcome at any of the pro M sites and of course, there is no outlet for dissention or question or any dialog whatsoever there.

I must say you are a breath of fresh air. At least you don't try to hide your real beliefs.

My intentions, (I don't believe in that old Hindu concept of 'karma') is to point out your fallacious thinking processes and hopefully help lead you out of your cult entrapment.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 07:07:42 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Another explanation Jim.
Message:
Hi Jim,

Maybe he's got his head in a dark, damp, smelly place that is obstructing his view of life.

Anth the nice cop.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:53:00 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Another explanation Jim.
Message:
Actually right now I do, it's called Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum. Thank you for pointing that out.
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 03:20:12 (EST)
From: of this world
Email: None
To: It;s the Andrew
Subject: Gerrards of this world that protect the Jagdeos
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 14:53:54 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: This is the story they threatened me with as I walked away
Message:
I got hit with the same story, and to this day, I still think about it occasionally. It was told so many times that I think it carved a neural pathway into my brain. Shortly after I left, I happened to see M in my travels about town, word got out, and a few days letter I received a phone call from a premie friend (or so I had thought) telling me 'I didn't deserve to see him.' That call confirmed for me that I had done the right thing.
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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 13:11:07 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I thought it was supposed to be merciful
Message:
You bet you did the right thing. If premies were as... ahem... 'realized' as they THINK they are, then they would have realized that the (gack...) master was showing you his infinite mercy by allowing you to gaze upon his golden form, even while turning your lowly, insignificant back on him.

See premies.... THAT is the way to look at it! Now THINK about it for a bit and come up with the right story, ok?

I can't believe it, even an EX comes up with better cult-life justifications/explanations than, 'you didn't deserve to see him!' How dull..... he he he :-)

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 10:12:33 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: I'm Dead
Message:
Hi Monmot,

I spoke to an old premie friend just after I quit the cult too. He told me, 'Anth. You are no longer a living person. You're dead.'

He wasn't threatening me. Merely making an observation about my spirit.

Anth the Zombie.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 10:48:14 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: I'm Dead
Message:
Hi Anth:

And it follows, of course, that they must be the undead.

M

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 05:26:31 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: And they walk among us. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:08:16 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: This is the story they threatened me with as I walked away
Message:
No Monmot, it was he who did not deserve to see you!

Love, Marianne

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:29:22 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Why, Thank You... (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:01:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Yeah, that's why I stopped shopping at Bijan and Gucci
Message:
Where would you see the guy, Bon Mot? He's not exactly the type to take a Sunday stroll with his family along the Pallisades.
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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:28:11 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yeah, that's why I stopped shopping at Bijan and Gucci
Message:
LOL on Bijan... Santa Monica Airport.
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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 17:13:58 (EST)
From: Cynthia
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Roger
Subject: Many Variations on the Same Theme
Message:
Roger,

I remember your version of the story, too. He had many versions, the most recent of which I believe he leaves out the 'Maya' part. Same message, a few word changes--same indoctrination system.

Monmot and everybody: he never deserved ANY OF US!!

Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 05:37:26 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Making an assumption here
Message:
Based on the line of dots that grace the forum I'd say it looks like the forum has been visited by someone who is angry with us.

Is this act of cyber terrorism juvenile and cowardly?

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 10:47:56 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Making an assumption here
Message:
According to the Computer Security Institute, these are the types of
computer crime and other losses:
· Human errors - 55%
· Physical security problems - 20%(e.g., natural disasters, power problems)
· Insider attacks conducted for the purpose of profiting from computer crime
- 10%
· Disgruntled employees seeking revenge - 9%
· Viruses - 4%
· Outsider attacks - 1-3%

More likely a case of paranoia.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 14:54:44 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Yeah, sure. Got me convinced.
Message:
It would take a computer expert to get those statistics.

I'm impressed.

You must be right.

I'm wrong.

Stay on schedule. Got move those people from Point A to Point B. Keep up on your studies.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 17:47:01 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Yeah, sure. Got me convinced.
Message:
Roger,

I wasn't suggesting for a moment that you were wrong about anything. One can see the line of dots you mentioned in the page source code between the two line breaks. Intriguing to think how they got there. Got any suggestions?

My IT skills are very limited, indeed.

Andrew

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:02:47 (EST)
From: ANDREW GERRARD
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: My pleasure. (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:07:19 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: ANDREW GERRARD
Subject: I see you changed your User-Agent
Message:
Andrew, you must know a lot about computers to be able to change your User-Agent. Or else you have more than one computer. A computer expert nevertheless.

Be sure to re-read my earlier message as I changed it.

Is that a double decker bus you drive?

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 23:59:14 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Tickets please
Message:
Vroooooooooom

Beep beep

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 03:04:57 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Very good, Cerberus. You're really getting good.
Message:
My how you are coming along with your computer science studies at OU. And it appears that you might be using your real name. Or am I just being too assuming?

It's always so nice to have you come around and play with us even though we really don't know much about you and you seem to change your name every week or so.

Or am I just being too paranoid and whiny, again?

My, how I do like the way you Brits talk to rough and mean. Oooooh!

Listen I want to give you a riddle. I, too, know something about computers. I'm hopefully running a very secure system here at home and I want to see exactly how secure it is.

Here is my IP address: 208.47.125.3

You'll let me know somehow.

And after you're done with that we can have a nice little chat about Guru Maharaji.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 02:24:34 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Very good, Cerberus. You're really getting good.
Message:
>I'm hopefully running a very secure system here at home and I want to see exactly how secure it is.
Here is my IP address: 208.47.125.3

There is no route to that address.

CD

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 14:01:23 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Re: Very good, Cerberus. You're really getting good.
Message:
Can't trace out dynamics

It's in following netblock:

Qwest Communications (NETBLK-NET-QWEST-BLK) NET-QWEST-BLK
208.44.0.0 - 208.47.255.255
MD Procurement Office (NETBLK-QWEST-208-47-125) QWEST-208-47-125
208.47.125.0 - 208.47.125.255

Doesn't Zyan have a decent Ping utility?

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Date: Thurs, Dec 23, 1999 at 01:28:08 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: TCP/IP and info
Message:
>Doesn't Zyan have a decent Ping utility?

Oh I have a ping and tracert and more plus I could write a decent Winsock app in C++. And somebody consistently is hitting my Proxy from a geocities range with bogus TCP command sequences usually used to disrupt.

Now about Zyan. How did you run into my web ISP?
You obviously have one of my IP addresses. But I am not sure that I visited your web site.

CD

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 04:26:17 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Very good, Cerberus. You're really getting good.
Message:
Roger,

Please be assured the photo of the bus was not posted by Andrew Gerrard.

Andrew

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 04:30:35 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Andrew Gerrard
Subject: Don't be so humble
Message:
I know that I'm really paranoid and that's why I clean my guns everyday.

How disappointing that I must be mistaking you for someone else in Britain.

Nevertheless, if you know anything about computers I'll let you have a crack at my system, too. It's 24/7. There is one backdoor open. Let's see if anyone finds it.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:47:22 (EST)
From: Andrew Gerrard
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Don't be so humble
Message:
My dear chap, why on earth would anyone want to look into your crack?

As for your open backdoor - is that a homosexual innuendo? If so, I'm really not interested.

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 11:23:22 (EST)
From: Selene
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Don't be so humble
Message:
THAT is indeed a wide open statement. Oh how funny.
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 20:00:49 (EST)
From: Loafji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: a good site
Message:
Has anybody come across the below - seems to be a pretty informative overview of things:

http://cti.itc.virginia.edu/~jkh8x/soc257/nrms/elanvital.html

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 01:50:41 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Loafji
Subject: Re: a good site
Message:
Yes, they've made a good job.

A lot of their stuff has been pulled from wy website, unfortunately they've added lots of mistakes, and they don't give the link to their source.

If you wantto tell them ....

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 20:41:31 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Loafji
Subject: Re: a good site
Message:
Sacred Texts: 'Knowledge' as told by Guru Maharaj Ji

Now thats a book of the mouth

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:18:01 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
In looking at Loafji's post and the use of separation,here's another possible explanation for you to synthesize the two conflicting realms of experience you have.(or people have in trying to extricate themselves from a system that arguably,has 'delivered')

This guru system,like quite a few others and most religions,separates you from your self.And Maharaji either doesn't choose or doesn't understand (neither choice is very flattering) the necessity in reconnecting the student back to the student.So they become a Follower. And that loop is permanent unless the student walks away(I think at this point it is safe to assume that Maharaji will not pull the curtain down on his own messiahship/dominance/or spiritual superiority)

So irony of ironies,you come to the teacher/friend/master/Lord to find a connection to yourself,and you end up being posited in a
belief system that denies you permanent connection.Even though you had a permanent connection going in ! Strange,sad, but true. Its a shame really .But there certainly are further avenues and realms of personal growth and experience that dwarf the 'knowledge ' loop.

If this knowledge could connect you to your self,at this point 20 years later,you would have stabilized at a bonafide level of bliss.If Maharaji
were a real master,he would have re-empowered you to you could actually GROW.
And you and so many of the friends and people I know over the years would be accruing the benefits of their genuine sincerity.But neither guru or techniques hold even a dim candle to our own resplendant nature. This is not the Knowlwdge of Knowledge, and he is not the King of Kings.

However the Group/Master initiation IS a stage where connection to self is mixed /blended with
outside dynamics.Like any good energy orgy,REAL HIGHS are attained.And with the institution of a workable belief system those highs can be enhanced recycled and refined.

But finally in order to proceed/move on/grow/ that separation has to be reclaimed by the individual.And in the Maharaji system,there is NOTHING telling you to regain personal Sovereignty !Becauce Maharaji is the SOVEREIGN in that system.One is there because of his grace kindness etc ( its a total crock,but if the participants believe it give their power love to Mahari,it will work. Belief systems do heal.)

In my understanding,the missing ingredient, the solution to separation, synthesis,and moving on- is self love.No- SELF love. Total devotion. Steadily,patiently,devotedly.
Impersonal filling of our OWN tanks with the sweet kisses and the purity that is
traditionally given to the Guru/savior figure.
Seeing the same divinity /light/unlimitedness in ONEs SELF that has in some default fashion been granted to the guy
on the stage/tape/VCR.
Taking back the power-which in this system is love-taking the love back and shining it upon yourself/myself/ourself for awhile.
Till we feel our tanks filled up.
Call it the 5th technique.
Or final instrutions on how to gain escape velocity from GURU MAHARAJI's WORLD.
But trust we,do it.You/we certainly deserve that love. (and of course I'm not talking ego,but the real love- the secret mojo we usually save for programs/altars/darshan lines/babies,etc.The pure non-judgemental BIG love)

.Experience the Soul plane and other planes that we can STABILISE higher inner experience in- without losing ourselves to the big bad wolf who persists in believing he is grandma.

Then you will have the power strength clarity to move on and resonate with other experiences in life that will nourish the sense of connection
we certainly deserve.

That's the funny thing.We all came for Love.The real Love. And that's the ONE thing completely missing from the system.Maharaji obviously thinks he's great and has a legendary ego, but he certainly suffers from a lack of self love.I think that should be relatively clear to most of this readership.Bad childhood,weird dynamics,being short- for whatever reason. The students under his general aura,have dispensed with the basic love caring and concern that we all had back at the beginning. Because its not
called for or even recognized in the system.

Finally,own needs there own power and divinity intact in order to escape theclear and recognizable membrane of fear that exists as one moves out of the sphere of spiritual influence that Maharaji's(& any system) exerts.
Take your love and soul back before you move on.Its a real process.But the last degree of separation- the guru's kidnapping of your spiritual power and identity,can not be eliminated until you pass through this membrane. And a true amount of self love is needed.

Maybe Maharaji on some final level really is trying his best,promoting a subuniverse where no one has enough REAL self-love,so they play the mirror game. But the main thing is, his life is not yours.

Once we dissolve the last degree or separation.

Happy birthday Loafji, and have a good miilenium.

Mark

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 14:30:05 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
Seems like although the highs can be recycled and
refined, and we seem compelled to try to do that,
it gets thinner in the process.
Although I guess it is up to the individual whether or not
they add the enthusiasm and/or attitude that may make
thier belief system come alive for them.

I would rewrite your sentence about 'at this point
20+ years later..' I am not sure how I would go with it
but I dont think we are not in a level of bliss because
the rawats are not 'a real master'. I dont see where
anyone playing a master role would be appropriate.
Someone saying 'hereis your breath, now feel it when you
want and go pursue your dreams and make them come
true' would be about right.
But of course no one is brief when it comes to advice!
It would have been nice if he had, as you said, re-empowered
us at some point.
The forum has proved useful in doing that for some,
I am one that got help here.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 22:43:56 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
Mark,

Do you speak English?

John.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:51:12 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: JHB, I understand what he's saying
Message:
JHB,

You are a stupid moron.

Dep

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 12:16:04 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
Dear John:

The post is a bit stream-of-consciosness/snaky in its style, but if you do get through it, the post makes a very good point. Perhaps it was the glass of wine I imbibed which eased my reading process :-)), but it was worth it.

M

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 02:14:47 (EST)
From: Mark
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
JHB,

American. ( though my wife is british.)

In simple terms,the passive meditation practices are not the be all end all of inner experience. Though the experience of the void Mr Deputy Dog discusses is I agree an delightful oasis.

Active meditation,co-creational thought, or openess to allowing ourselves to grow into or become the vibrational equivilent of the Christ or Perfect Master or whatever container of Savior we use is in my opinion the goal energetically. Ironically savior use drives a wedge between ourselves and pure experience . These systems all have Glass Ceilings, though they enhance experience
TO A POINT.

.And to love ourselves the same way we loved the Guru,is the one very way to outgrow the baby-bathwater issue Anon and Loafji were talking about .

What is needed is a bigger conception of ourself then
us versus god or guru. and then allowing the embracement of the energy that by natural law fills the bigger thought.

It is a way out of duality, that outgrows gurus saviors disempowering religions and meditation. LOVE . SELF LOVE.One second of direct soul experience,or experience of one's higher self exposes the glass ceiling.

hope that was clear.Tho you may not disagree

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 07:23:30 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
Mark,

Can you remember being a normal human being? If so, please communicate in a way that would be comprehensible to a normal human being. There's a lot of mumbo-jumbo in your posts.

John.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 21:40:44 (EST)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
Dear Mark:

Excellent post. My experience in the process (and it is a process, arduous and confusing at times) of separating from M is that I achieved by leaving M what I thought I would get by staying--mySELF. Ironic, paradoxical, but true.

Thanks

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 20:18:36 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Mark
Subject: Interrupt the Separation
Message:
-
Mark,

To me meditation is awareness. When we are aware we are not as entangled at the verbal level where the 'internal dialog' dominates.

The void is our true nature and the internal dialog blocks our natural wisdom, limits who we are, and attracts our attention to a fraction of the reality in which we exist.
Meditation puts us into direct contact with more of who we are. When we meditate we become less and less caught up in the soap opera. We see that much of what we thought to be ourselves is essentially impersonal conditioning passing by. Our true nature is like the sun, which is always shining, always present, though often obscured.

Our sense of unworthiness comes from our being trained out of trusting our natural being, out true nature. We have come to think that it is not appropriate to love ourselves because we have lost this connection. Unless you become as a little child you cannot enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, that connected state. Meditaion helps us get in touch with ALL that we are. We interrupt the mechanical conditioning, the mind-spin, that keeps pulling us out again and again. So in my opinion, meditation actually gets me in touch with my self, (but not permanently, that would be boring).

My love and soul have been there all the time, and I'm just uncovering it. I never gave anything away.

That's the way I see it.

Dep

I'm not that big on the millenimum. It's just a bunch of numbers people made up. The universe is billions of years old, we've been around for what, two hundred thousand years tops? The world will continue to be here long after we are gone.

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Date: Tues, Dec 21, 1999 at 10:43:27 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Interrupt the Separation
Message:
No Dep, 'When we meditate we become less and less caught up in the soap opera,' this is wrong. The correct way to say it is, 'that the more you meditate the more APATHETIC you become and the less concerned with 'others' you become.' The correct word for what you describe is 'selfish,' not 'awareness.' When you are aware, you are aware of the suffering of others and the desire to correct it to the very best of your human abilities.

It's taken me quite a while to break the 'habit' of being 'unaware,' as I was so well indoctrinated by M. Caring about others is the very FIRST sign of awareness. Try it, you might like it!

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Date: Wed, Dec 22, 1999 at 23:42:57 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, you are a moron, fuck off! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 23, 1999 at 00:15:18 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, be in the world yet not of the world, it's called peace (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Dec 23, 1999 at 17:59:37 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Do you mean
Message:
DD, do you mean 'peace' like the 'fuck-off moron Mike' type peace or something else? Now that was a peace-filled thing to say. You guys are pathetic! I know damned good and well what peace is because I've had to actually get off my dead ass and PROTECT and DEFEND IT with my life!

Don't even talk to me about peace and caring. Until I see YOUR dead ass (your life and your pocket book) doing the same, you have nothing to say to me about the subject.

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Date: Fri, Dec 24, 1999 at 00:34:48 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Mike, I can be at peace and still think you're a moron (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Dec 24, 1999 at 11:12:23 (EST)
From: Mike
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Mike, I can be at peace and still think you're a moron (nt)
Message:
Oh really? That's an interesting way of expressing your supposed 'inner peace.' Whatever..... You say you are in this world, but not of it, eh? Then why do you spend so much time here arguing with those of us who are admittedly OF this world?

I am OF this world.... My body is made of the elements of this planet. My DNA contains the genentic memory of every previous generation from which I evolved. I live here with my fellow beings. I have tried and continue to try to improve the lot of those with whom I live and the planet upon which we all live. I'll die here with my fellow beings. Yup, I'm of this world and gladly admit it. Trying to convince yourself that you are NOT of this world is what got us into trouble. Thinking WE are something apart and special permitted the gross abuses of this planet and those that inhabit it (including humans)! Rather than acknowledging our genetic relationship with everything here, REALIZING that we are part of the ecological balance (being a creature that evolved here) and acting as stewards because we have EVOLVED the ability to do so..... INSTEAD we decide WE are something apart and special.... BULLHOCKY!

THINKING (and it really is ONLY THAT.... THINKING) that you are special and apart IS the problem, bud! You should be revelling IN this world, not trying to separate yourself from it. By revelling, I don't mean 'going crazy,' but rather enjoying it (since we have evolved the ability to do so), protecting it and, most importantly, realize that we inhabit it and are nurtured by it. WE ARE OF THIS WORLD, no matter WHAT we T.H.I.N.K!

Now, who's the moron?

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Date: Sat, Dec 25, 1999 at 17:47:07 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Mike
Subject: Sorry I thought you were Michael the priest (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 22:48:12 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Hey look at what Dog said!
Message:
So in my opinion, meditation actually gets me in touch with my self, (but not permanently, that would be boring).

Can you believe a premie would say this? The experience of the knowledge of all knowledges could become boring???

They are stupid as we all knew.

John.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:41:34 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: JHB - What I said
Message:
JHB,

Permanent bliss with no problems can be accomplished with a lobotomy.

Dep

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:09:12 (EST)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Hey look at what Dog said!
Message:
JHB,

Is it so incredible to you that someone is simply being honest? Dep is just trying to explain what his actual experience is - and the way I understood it is, it's a dynamic process. It's a matter of striving, touching base, falling away and touching base once again.

Yes, if you're left to yourself and your own devices, meditation can become monotonous sometimes, and one can become disenheartened. That's why the inspiration and assistance of a Master who's 'been there, done that' is indispensable. It's the Guru who makes it come alive.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 15:50:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili, Dog, where's your stamina, guys?
Message:
Hey, didn't you guys read The Conference of the Birds? Where's your fortitude? Where's your courage? Where's your faith? Why, when I was a premie I knew that just at that point when I thought I'd hit a wall, Maharaji was really challenging me to let go further. That's the very time, brothers, when you have to open your hearts and concentrate assiduously. It's like you're an ant, trying to scale this giant, steel wall. You can't do it on your own. You can't even see ....

Uh oh. I see what you mean, Run. I'm actually starting to think I'm Maharaji or something. Whew!

Well, the point's still there. You have to persevere through the boredom which, as we all know, is nothing but mind anyway. Best of luck.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 16:12:05 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili, Dog, where's your stamina, guys?
Message:
James,

Thank you for the thoughtful note AND the respect. Respect seems to be the buzzword on ex-premie these days. It's an interesting change of pace, the constant bickering and confrontation was becoming boring, and tiresome.

I'd would post more but need to spend more time with my family.

Respectfully yours,

Dep

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 16:18:55 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Zzzzzzziiiiiinnnnnnggggggg!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:43:23 (EST)
From: Loafji
Email: Loafji@yahoo.com
To: Mark
Subject: Re: The Last Degree of Separation
Message:
It is interesting for me just to observe what is happening to me - the encouraged habit of 'gratitude' seems to be one of the most dangerous and seductive - for it is sweet - but addictive - but I agree wholeheartedly with what you have been kind enough to write. I do not want to spend any more time in orbit around anybody else - and yet - perhaps paradoxically - the experience I have found in meditation - and which El Hugio Pakistanio has nurtured - (and he has)- when I OWN it - seems to be a great treasure to run off with.

Its a bit like getting the cheese out of the mousetrap i guess.

Anyway - it still feels scary and exciting. I'm a bit wobbly on my own feet. Thanks

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 14:11:12 (EST)
From: Loafji
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Degrees of seperation
Message:
I've been involved with M for coming up to 20 years - and unlike some people who seem angry and bitter and resentful - I had a pretty good time - the true cost SEEMS to be pretty heavily weighed up with benefit - which makes my anlaysis of the whole situation not so symplistic as Black and white - in coversation with premies I find myself playing devils advocate and pulling holes in their blinkered and dependant culture - As a person on the edge of clarity and who admits to enjoying being overwhelmed by the feelings which M and Knowlege directed me towards - I don't want to deny ANY good stuff. One thing seems clear - the further away from the residence I am - the happier I seem to be. Perhaps this tells me something !

Thoughts and encouragement by return of pidgeon

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Date: Mon, Dec 20, 1999 at 06:48:30 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Loafji
Subject: Wheat and Chaff
Message:
Hi Loafji,

I can understand where you're coming from here, as I've been going through similar stuff for ages.

It's a bit like separating the wheat from the chaff.

The process started for me ages ago, and accelerated when I realised I was in a cult and wanted to get out. I was incarcerated for about 25 years. People like me, who got into Divine Light Mission in the early 70s, went through lots of intense brainwashing sessions, night after night, where we were told, and told others, that Maharaji was here with more power than ever before, Knowledge was God, he was greater than God etc. This stuff doesn't fall away instantly, but takes time to unravel.

As a premie you are indoctrinated to think that what you experience when you sit down to practice the meditation techniques is direct contact with the Life Force, or God, (Divine Light, Holy Name, Harmonies, Nectar).

This is bullshit. Knowledge isn't an experience of God within. It's just some old Indian mediation techniques. Premies don't have the exclusive option on the Creator.

It takes time for all this stuff to fall away. Like I said, it's just over a year since I posted my 'Journey' and came out publicly, and garbage is still dropping off. I'm not there yet.

Anyway, good luck on your journey out of the cult Loafji. If you're ever in London you should come to one of our Latvian Nights.

Anth the still deprogramming but hopes to be free by the next Millenium.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 20:48:35 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Loafji
Subject: Re: Degrees of separation
Message:
the true cost SEEMS to be pretty heavily weighed up with benefit - which makes my anlaysis of the whole situation not so symplistic as Black and white - I don't want to deny ANY good stuff.

No, you obviously want to know the truth. Don't we all? This site may seem to be very Black sometimes but believe me... beneath the tough exteriors there are many sensitive souls here, trying to discern truth even if it means being outspoken, and appearing negative. We are just frustrated toeing the line.

Somebody I met yesterday said that he thought premies were much more 'secretive' in their activities recently, and he cited, as an example, that he had asked a lady premie friend how she had got on at some event or other, and she had basically implied that she had been urged to be secretive about attending and was therefore reticent to speak about it. To my surprise, my buddy suggested that the 'general secretive trend amongst premies' that he perceived, was a direct effect of the influence of this website. He was quite sure of this.

He then went on to give a few examples of a couple of people he knew, who had been aspirants or 'new premies', who had basically become disillusioned (they had apparently tired of giving Maharaji and their premie peers the benefit of the doubt) and who wanted some clarity. Getting no sympathy from either of the former, they were naturally delighted to find that the sort of things that bothered them were openly expressed and discussed on a daily basis at this website. Since their involvement with Maharaji was relatively recent, it would seem that they were all the more easily able to put Maharaji and premies behind them.
I basically have been undergoing the same process, only with the factor of having spent a great deal longer suppressing my doubts and investing my trust in him. To extricate oneself from a long period of denial is obviously going to take more time. I can understand why after 20 years you feel only 'on the edge of clarity'.

You seem to be facing the same dilemma as most of us, in that you rightly want to address the stuff that rubs you up the wrong way- without 'denying the good stuff' as you put it. Unfortunately I found that within the realm of Maharaji and premies their really is no room for any intelligent or complete discussion about the sort of doubts that inevitably creep in. Or if there ever is, then satisfactory answers have notbeen yet forthcoming. Worse, there is clearly a feeling that any reservations, complaints or doubts that people have, are deemed merely the result of the sufferer not having an 'overwheming' enough experience of Knowledge. The inevitable impression is that one should toe the line until these doubts go away. Well, they didn't for me.

It's a one way show really. Maharaji speaks... you listen. You speak... no one listens!
There is no room for open discussion.
Nobody really cares what you think.
Everybody is busy trying to please M.

Being a premie is obviously a delicate enough state that it is rather threatened by discussion.
People's respect and love for Maharaji is often tinged with fear.
Premies are often 'jumpy' or 'insensitive'- especially at events or around Maharaji. This has to be interpreted as a bad effect-what causes it?

If you look at the thing from a sociological point of view (by checking out the Indian Roots etc) one can see how the 'phenomena' of Maharaji and Knowledge works, and this in turn helps to de-mystifiy the whole thing. There are 'down to earth' explanations for almost everything.
Secrecy, specialness/uniqueness, investing trust, vows, the belief in a mystical embodiment of the divine in a Master etc. are all things that are key to M and Knowledge working. As are emotion, devotion, dependency, suppression of doubt, being in a new society of supportive believers, the devotion of time/attendance at events and of course the practice of the techniques.

Anyway, you seem concerned with weighing up the benefits against the pitfalls.

I have suffered that same process and I think it is not so good to weigh things up when confused. In the end I have had to address my own immediate and pressing need for clarity. For me that has involved quite a lot of writing here since a few years ago; discussing stuff, a bit of ranting and of course the great theraputic 'Journey' writing experience. I actually wrote 2 'journeys'-one remains here and the other was on some former site-filed under 'Expressions' or suchlike-I can't remember exactly what. Anyway, it was a very cathartic experience putting pen to paper. Also a sort of a challenge to Maharaji to answer some questions I suppose. (No response yet from that direction though!)

Talking here can be like challenging God to actually prove himself too. At first, I had definate feelings of being a naughty child- since to write here was such a totally taboo thing to do for a premie, impressed with Maharaji for so long as Mother and Father, Brother and Friend. There's the confronting of the fear that you might be damned forever like Judas. etc. A real sense of betraying your creator and all the attendant fears - only not really where it counts actually. It's been a relief to acknowledge my conscience - my humanity. The high moral ground (which has been discussed here) is surely the domain of those who are motivated by their consciences and their honesty.

My attempt to gain clarity involved reading a lot of the historical background to Maharaji. There are some very good books around which explain the origin of a lot of the things we were doing as premies.
Since then, JM's website has addressed a lot of that side of things and is no doubt a valuable resource for people who wish to understand the present the better by gaining an understanding of the past. Others will find it a load of boring Indian twaddle. (which of course it largely is!) New premies seem to be pretty unaware of the way Maharaji presented himself in the past and current premies seem immoderately keen to draw attention away from the past and onto Maharaji's very simplified current, less provocative profile.

This website is inevitably provocative to premies since it polarises, so symmetrically, the premie world where Maharaji is sacrosanct and beyond question. But it should not be so. When I first wrote here I was hopeful that Maharaji might even welcome some such honest expression. Clearly he had expressed the desire to move on -to grow etc. It was my hope that he might have some sympathy for the terrible crisis of conscience which I was undergoing in the pursuit of truth- which has ironically led to my open questioning of his ways.

I confess that I am sad that premies tend to see former devotees who are suffering sincere misgivings- as the new enemy. At least we can be bothered to criticise Maharaji! As a matter of fact Maharaji could be grateful that some former premies dare speak out. It cannot be healthy, (even for God) to be surrounded by sycophantic people who agree with everything you do or say. Scared people. Let's face it- Maharaji is absolutely surrounded by 'yes' men. Does he benefit always from this?

I wish you luck in your pursuit for clarity.

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Date: Sun, Dec 19, 1999 at 04:20:59 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: ***Best***
Message:
***Best***
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 21:21:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Really well-said, Anon (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 21:06:14 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Fabulous post, Anon! nt
Message:
xxx
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:01:42 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Loafji
Subject: Re: Degrees of seperation
Message:
Don't deny the good feelings, but think clearly about the issues here. Many premies were hurt by the devotional trip that Maharaji created, e.g. the closure of the ashrams. The wasted years of many premies when they could have been getting qualifications but instead tried to devote their lives to him. There's the Jagdeo paedophile stuff, where exes have posted here that Maharaji knew about it, and continued to allow him to be in communities with children. There's his ridiculously over the top wealth and continued demands for more money. And so much more.

Do your good feelings come from meditation? If so then assign the credit to meditation and your efforts. Not to Maharaji who spreads the deceit that he is somehow necessary for the experience. That's a lie, as I think you are finding out.

Once these issues start to sink in, I think a little anger may arise.

All the best in your journey,

John.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:39:33 (EST)
From: Loafji
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Degrees of seperation
Message:
Thanks. Its not that i cannot see the arrogance and the dreadful human pyramid which forms around and panders to the ego centric figurehead - be it guru, piriest, pop star or any charasmatic - it just that - in some ways - he has helped me - and in others -I too have wasted time and been strung along by a myth making self propaganda machine - I do need time and patience (from Both sides) to come to terms with it all. Thanks JHB
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:37:57 (EST)
From: Loafji
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Degrees of seperation
Message:
Thanks. Its not that i cannot see the arrogance and the dreadful human pyramid which forms around and panders to the ego centric figurehead - be it guru, piriest, pop star or ant charasmatic - it just that - in some ways - he has helped me - and in others -I too have wasted time and been strung along by a myth making self propaganda machine - I do need time and patience (from Both sides) to come to terms with it all. Thanks JHB
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 10:22:35 (EST)
From: Cheryl
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Gratitude
Message:
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
For the first time in the three years I have been the bewildered girlfriend to a longtime devotee, I feel like I am not alone. Is this the right place to ask the million and one questions I have about the guru and effects on his followers?
Sometimes I just feel like packing up and going home.
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 11:04:07 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Cheryl
Subject: ? for Cheryl
Message:
Hi and Welcome,

I agree completely with JHB's post concerning treading lightly about the issue with your boyfriend.

Do you know how long he has been a follower of Maharaj Ji? The reason I ask is many of us who have known Maharaji since the early 70's were led to believe that the then Guru Maharaj Ji(all the same person)was the living lord like Jesus was in his time. So you can see if your boyfriend believes this how confronting negative comments might be.

Take care Cheryl

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 10:29:25 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Cheryl
Subject: Re: Gratitude
Message:
Cheryl,

Yes this is the right place, but I would first recommend going to www.ex-premie.org to read about the background. The Nuts and Bolts section has all the basic facts, and the Journeys section has lots of personal stories about people's involvement in the cult. For balance go to Maharaji's own web site at www.maharaji.org.

Beware though, if you start to discuss this with your boyfriend you could be surprised by his reaction. Things could get rocky!:-)

John.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:31:02 (EST)
From: Cheryl
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Question
Message:
Could somebody please explain to me what 'lila' means?
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:51:58 (EST)
From: octopus
Email: None
To: Cheryl
Subject: Re: Lila question
Message:
M uses the term as his own 'wild card', or carte-blanche to get his followers to do whatever he wants them to.

For premies it generally implies a justification for any kind of situation they find themselves in, e.g. Question: 'Why is Maharaji denying he ever claimed to be the most powerful incarnation of God this planet has ever known' ?

Answer: 'That's his lila'

If you don't believe he ever made such claims, try this one for size:

"Guru Maharaji creates God. Then God gives us form. Then I take a form myself to be with you"
(Philadelphia, 1974)

If you go to Ex-Premie.org's GLOSSARY, you'll find the following definition:

LILA

Hindi word which can be roughly translated as the play of the gods. Often used by premies to describe some of Maharaji's more bizarre actions or statements.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 10:12:29 (EST)
From: Cheryl
Email: None
To: octopus
Subject: Re: Lila question
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:43:38 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Cheryl
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
It's a game or joke played by the living lord in order to teach the devotee some lesson, that is usually left unexplained. In the early days we were told many stories about dead 'masters' such as Krishna, who was famous for playing jokes on his devotees. The term 'lila' was then applied to actions by Maharaji to justify all the shitty things he did such as becoming incredibly wealthy, and hitting his devotees. For a brainwashed devotee perspective, it becomes easier to assign Maharaji's action to 'lila' than to engage in any critical thought.

There was a devotional song which Maharaji recently revived called 'Lila', the chorus of which was:-

He is Lila, Lila
and His Game has just begun.

It's been only just begun for a long time now:-)

I hope this helps.

John.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 12:23:46 (EST)
From: Marianne
Email: MarianneDB@aol.com
To: Cheryl
Subject: Re: Question
Message:
Cheryl: This is a great place to get answers for your questions. Bring them on! There's lots of ex-premies who would be more than happy to answer. Take a look at Jean-Michel's site too. There's a link at the top to the DLM/EV Papers that will get you there. It has lots of information about the history of the cult. Particularly interesting is the excerpt from a book called 'Soul Rush' by Sophia Collier, who was a leader in the organization for a while & ultimately left the cult.

Here's another definition of lila: When something bad happened in your life that was upsetting, premies would sometimes say, 'Oh, that's Maharaji's lila!', trying to explain away emotionally difficult events as a 'gift' from Maharaji to make the premie stronger. Calling some difficult event a lila meant that you didn't have to try to integrate the emotional consequences into your being and could go merrily on your way knowing that God was pulling all the strings in your life. Ascribing an event to lila absolved the person experiencing the lila from confronting life's changes in a mature manner. I also remember a boyfriend I had explaining away his short-comings in our relationship as 'lila'.

I hope this is helpful.
Marianne

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 07:45:56 (EST)
From: octopus
Email: None
To: All
Subject: mark of ...Cainer?
Message:
Hope this isn't raking over old ground, but I just discovered this in the Guardian's archives:

From The Guardian: Wednesday July 21, 1999
Wheen's World
(Francis Wheen)

'I really love your lotus feet'

Jonathan Cainer, the Daily Mail's resident stargazer, has taken umbrage at my suggestion that he is a devotee of Maharaji, the tubby preacher who used to call himself the Guru Maharaj Ji. Why, then, does he maintain a large website devoted to the old boy? 'I'm a keen aficionado of Maharaji's work and his message,' Cainer explains, in a 'very personal statement' posted on the website replying to my article last week. 'But I really have to reject that devotion notion. It implies some kind of religious faith and if this is a religion or faith, that's the first I have heard of it in my 20-odd years of involvement.'

Tut tut: Cainer clearly hasn't been paying attention. Maharaji himself dealt with the 'devotion notion' when addressing more than 50,000 followers in New Delhi on April 13 1991: 'What has a devotee to become? A devotee has to become a receptacle. And what has a disciple to become? A disciple too has to become a receptacle. Whatever you name him, he is meant to be a vessel, meant to be empty... You have to turn to the Master and pray to him to give you prudence - 'Maharaji, please give me wisdom... If my attention is diverted somewhere else, O my Lord, please call me back to you... I do not know what is good for me. But you know best.'' Cainer says Maharaji has never claimed to be 'some kind of divinity'. In fact, he has often done just that. Interviewed by the Divine Times newspaper in February 1973, he described himself as 'the Supremest Lord in person'. In February 1982 he advised aficionados that 'by yourself you cannot do anything, but I can do everything... I am the law, in which rests the movement of the stars and the growth of each living cell'.

At another New Delhi rally, on November 9 1990, he announced that 'the guru is such a personality about whom it is said: 'I bow down to the lotus-feet of my Guru Maharaji, who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form.''

Since then, Maharaji has been more cautious, presenting himself merely as a Master of Meditation. But I have it on the best possible authority that he hasn't changed his views: only last Saturday, the Maharaji assured a crowd in Barcelona that his message 'is always the same'.

How could Cainer fail to notice? I can only assume that he has been too busy admiring the fragrant lotus-feet of the editor of the Daily Mail.

Guardian Unlimited © Guardian Newspapers Limited 1999

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:49:39 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: octopus
Subject: Re: mark of ...Cainer?
Message:
Yes it is old ground, but well worth repeating. Exes from this site assisted Francis Wheen in the production of the article. The unpublished bit was that Geln Whitaker in a letter to the Guardian claimed that Elan Vital was not a successor organisation to Divine Light Mission and threatened to sue the Guardian. When evidence was presented to Glen that this was untrue, Glen wrote a letter to the Guardian withdrawing the threat and apologised for wasting the Guardian's time!

John.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:56:25 (EST)
From: octopus
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: mark of ...Cainer?
Message:
Thanks John,

In the spirit of fairness, how did the Guardian screw up regarding '99 Rolls-Royces' and the photo they used? Who the hell was that?

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 09:31:01 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: octopus
Subject: Re: mark of ...Cainer?
Message:
They initially mixed him up with Rajneesh before Francis became better advised. I didn't see any picture. They published an apology and said he didn't have 99 rollers.

John.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 08:25:05 (EST)
From: Judas
Email: None
To: octopus
Subject: Re: mark of ...Cainer?
Message:
So what are you implying here? I can relate to Cainer's fear. The unconscious infidels just don't understand. Principal is one thing but bread on the table is another.

....they just don't understand

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 04:20:10 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New light on darshan & 'experience'
Message:
By the grace of exes who've made some research, here is an excellent sociological analysis of this most controversial phenomenon !

How People Recognize Charisma:
The Case of Darshan in Radhasoami and Divine Light Mission.

Excerpt from the introduction:

This paper examines the recognition of charisma as an active conscious social process involving the confirmation of belief through non cognitive methods of altering perception. In the illustrative case of Sant Mat / Radhasoami / Divine Light Mission tradition the Hindu concept and ritual of darshan is examined.

That page is not directly linked yet to the rest of my website, and you'll have to click on the link provided to access it.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:09:17 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: J-M, so kids can't line up to see Santa any more? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 19:37:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: What's THAT supposed to mean? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 22:18:18 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Well it's kinda like darshan isn't it? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 22:37:38 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You stupid moron
Message:
Well it's kinda like darshan isn't it?

NO!

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 15:10:41 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I recommend this read for anyone.
Message:
Absolutely enthralling! So many things reminded me of the past... getting sacked from myriad jobs, all-night meditations,powder-blue darshan tunnels, Maharaji seeming to look larger than life etc.
I particularly liked:
Similarly, quests for Guru Maharaj Ji's physical darshan required tremendous sacrifices by his followers, which dominated their social and economic lives. Except for a select few personal attendants, most devotees were offered darshan only at 'festivals,' held during the 1970's several times a year in Europe, the U.S., and South America. As 'festivals' were frequently announced at short notice - sometimes within just a few days - and could involve thousands of miles of travel four, five, even up to ten times a year, many devotees found themselves unable to hold regular, full-time jobs. Those who were not already marginal to the society (see Downton, 1979, on their social origins) quickly became so. They also sacrificed community and leisure activities to the all-consuming necessity of earning enough money to travel to ' festivals. '

Tell me about it!

These sort of impartial analyses help me to put my past in perpspective. There is still a lot of emotional charge discussing those times with people who were involved. I find it refreshing to read intelligent, well-thought out articles such as this one, written by people who have the advantage of not being emotionally involved.
I'm sure Scott Talkington would be interested to read this. Didn't he express, on one of the forums, a scholarly interest in analysing DLM in terms of 'charisma'?

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 14:32:33 (EST)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: New light on darshan & 'experience'
Message:
Thanks, J-M; that was a great article and it really brought back so much. I remember receiving darshan for the first time in Toronto in 1974 and not experiencing anything but pretending that I did, because who wanted to be the guy who kissed the feet of the Lord of the Universe and didn't feel anything?
A very good article.
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 12:11:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks so much, JM -- really interesting for sure (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 11:46:59 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks JM! Fascinating! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 05:54:41 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: 'Welcome to another day in GMJ's world'
Message:
Hi Jean-Michel,

As always, you find great information. The subject heading is there because it reminded me of a week long retreat I went to in the late 70's. We would be awoke each morning via loudspeaker with that exact refrain. These researchers really do their homework.

Thanks

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 06:23:20 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Rawat's family SHOULD read this paper IMO
Message:
That would probably enlighten them a bit on their 'powers' ...
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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 14:59:31 (EST)
From: BB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Rawat's family SHOULD read this paper IMO
Message:
Thanks yet again JM

As far as 'probably enlighten them'.....
You can lead a horse to water but cant make them
drink as they say, and the rawats are thirsty for
wealth and ego tripping so the lesson may go ignored
still!

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 04:58:45 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: New light on darshan & 'experience'
Message:
I'll read it in detail later, but scanning it I found an interesting footnote:

12. Guru Maharaj Ji modified Radhasoami theology by identifying himself with great masters of all religions. Thus not only did he hint that he had been Krishna and Ram and Buddha, but among others, Christ and Mohammed as well. (In this he followed a common neo-Hindu practice of trying to universalize Hindu theology). He did not object when his followers persisted further by identifying him with all these saviors as they had been predicted to return: Kalki the tenth incarnation of Vishnu; Jesus Christ's second coming; the Buddha Matreiya; and the tenth Imam of Shiite Islam. j

Interesting because you've got scholars (I assume) examining the issue and they clearly see the divine implications regarding Maharaji. Yes, they said that Maharaji 'hinted', but it's pretty clear to me. It would be nice if one day we no longer have to listen to the premies revise history by saying that Maharaji never said or never even hinted that he was divine.

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Date: Sat, Dec 18, 1999 at 10:35:19 (EST)
From: Michael
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: New light on darshan & 'experience'
Message:
Roger, whoever wrote that footnote needs to stop doing research and just feel that divine inner experience which all the perfect masters gave. :)
I'm happy to see that others noticed the 'universalising for legitimacy' thang. Now if just a few of our well respected and loved premie friends would accept this truth...
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