Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 9
From: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 To: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 Page: 3 Of: 5


Happy -:- Sri Hans' letter to JFK -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:00:23 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Fuck you, Maharaji, you fucking jerk (non-aggressive post by the way) -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 21:42:13 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- Back to the womb..? -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 19:58:48 (EDT)
__ Mili -:- Kewl ! (nt) -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:10:22 (EDT)
__ bullocks -:- nut and tree -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 14:45:48 (EDT)
__ Way -:- Re: Sri Hans' letter to JFK -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:49:12 (EDT)
__ __ JW -:- Re: Sri Hans' letter to JFK -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 14:19:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: PS to Clinton -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 14:31:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Happy -:- Re: Sri Hans' letter to JFK -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 14:29:21 (EDT)

Way -:- To the premies here -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 11:43:08 (EDT)
__ Jack Brabham -:- Re: To the premies here -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 03:35:44 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- To Jack -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:28:57 (EDT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- Re: To the premies here -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 23:45:01 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Hi Mel -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 13:59:07 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- That's not the the way it was sold to us... -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 02:57:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: That's not the the way it was sold to us... -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 03:46:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Who Cares? -- The Premie Mantra -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:00:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Who Cares? -- The Premie Mantra -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:58:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- The Real Maharaji -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 14:09:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You just gave away the store, Mel -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 11:36:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Devotion -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 05:30:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Re: Devotion -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 08:52:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Patty worships a piece of plastic... -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:49:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ An Occasional Observer -:- To: Mel Bourne -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 04:58:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- To: Occassional Observer...closer observation please! -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 08:13:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Too muich, Mel, now you insult Maharaji too! -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 11:40:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Cynthia G -:- Re: May I interject something here? -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:24:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- A Challenge to Mel -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:04:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- To Mel -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:18:21 (EDT)

Jim -:- Maybe it IS time for passwords -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 10:46:15 (EDT)
__ bb -:- Re: Maybe it IS time for passwords -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 14:52:00 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- Who would a password have stopped? -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 11:53:15 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Re: Maybe it IS time for passwords -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 10:54:00 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave (retired) -:- Some major pitfalls -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 12:33:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Dave, are you ever wrong -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 20:38:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave (retired) -:- Re: Dave, are you ever wrong -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 21:00:54 (EDT)

Joey -:- Cults and PTSD -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 09:39:26 (EDT)
__ Enough -:- Re: Cults and PTSD -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 16:24:48 (EDT)
__ __ Joey -:- Re: Cults and PTSD -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 19:11:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ Enough -:- Re: Cults and PTSD -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 19:43:55 (EDT)

Lurking Ex -:- Something strange going on -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 21:17:54 (EDT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Something strange going on -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 19:17:09 (EDT)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Example of changed Browser -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 19:25:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Here is another example -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:32:15 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: Something strange going on -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 05:15:20 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave (retired) -:- Re: Something strange going on -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 05:23:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Something strange going on -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 06:43:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave (retired) -:- Re: Something strange going on -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 07:15:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Something strange going on -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 10:52:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Something strange going on -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 09:44:33 (EDT)

JHB -:- Meet and Drink in London -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:12:31 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- The Agenda -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 11:36:34 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Re: The Agenda -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:18:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: The Agenda -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:18:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Latvian Lesson -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:27:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Latvian Lesson -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:17:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Latvian Lesson -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:30:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Latvian Lesson -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 14:08:03 (EDT)

Fred -:- Earth -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:14:19 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Interesting subject, isn't it? -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 08:41:31 (EDT)

gerry -:- Taking out the garbage -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:49:29 (EDT)
__ Mickey Moss -:- Paradise is Hell -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 23:47:32 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: Paradise is Hell -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 06:46:45 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- New People on the Forum -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:27:45 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: New People on the Forum -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:45:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ Goofey -:- Re: New People on the Forum -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 00:03:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: New People on the Forum -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:05:43 (EDT)
__ __ Gerry the esatz janitor -:- Re: New People on the Forum -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:50:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: New People on the Forum -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 09:57:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: New People on the Forum -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:00:35 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- Re: Taking out the garbage -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 15:16:09 (EDT)
__ __ Lee -:- Re: Taking out the garbage -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 16:18:16 (EDT)

youngold -:- to errol flynn, et al -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 13:22:41 (EDT)
__ Waiting for Godo -:- Re: to errol flynn, et al -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:08:43 (EDT)

youngold -:- to Anth, the elder -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:47:08 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Re: to Anth, the elder -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:34:20 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- To Anth (ot) -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:04:21 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Re: To Katie (ot) -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 11:38:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: To Katie (ot) -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:51:04 (EDT)
__ __ youngold -:- to katie...no problem -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:17:39 (EDT)

syd -:- Coming out -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:37:21 (EDT)
__ bb -:- Coming in -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 01:58:36 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- alcohol -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:22:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ bee bee -:- honeywine -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:07:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: honeywine -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:25:00 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Yes, Syd, I empathize -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:01:30 (EDT)
__ __ syd -:- Thank you for your concern but... -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 16:15:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Thank you for your concern but... -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 20:56:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ syd -:- Re: Thank you for your concern but... -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 17:58:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: Thank you for your concern but... -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 23:12:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Not Agressive IMO! -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 16:31:17 (EDT)
__ __ bb -:- Re: Yes, Syd, I empathize -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 00:56:39 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Who Are You Talking About? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:43:02 (EDT)
__ __ bb -:- Re: Who Are You Talking About? -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 01:00:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Thanks Bill -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:52:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:22:38 (EDT)
__ __ syd -:- Re: Who Are You Talking About? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:30:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Grow Up Syd -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:20:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ syd -:- Too late for that! -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:38:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Anger and Aggression -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 16:28:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ syd -:- Re: Anger and Aggression -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 17:22:36 (EDT)
__ __ Fred -:- Calling Maharaji -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:50:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Re: Calling Maharaji -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:55:11 (EDT)
__ Runamok -:- Re: Coming out -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:23:19 (EDT)
__ mistake -:- delete this blank post (NT) -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:16:44 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- Re: Coming out -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 11:12:48 (EDT)
__ __ syd -:- Re: Coming out -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:42:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Coming out -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:12:12 (EDT)
__ kmdarling -:- Re: Coming out and some communication proposals -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:59:22 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Come on, Katie. Where's the knife? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:05:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: Come on, Katie. Where's the knife? -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:04:08 (EDT)
__ __ Fred -:- Katie & Katie -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 16:51:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: Katie & Katie -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:23:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Katie (Mischa) -:- Re: Katie & Katie -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 18:46:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: Katie & Katie -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:25:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Katie & Katie -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 12:28:03 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: Coming out -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:05:18 (EDT)
__ __ syd -:- Re: Coming out -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:48:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Your Book -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:09:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ syd -:- Re: Your Book -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:27:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Your Book -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:37:43 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ syd -:- Re: Your Book -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:48:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Thanks (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 21:19:15 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Bonjour Syd -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 08:27:21 (EDT)
__ __ syd -:- Re: Bonjour Syd -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:05:23 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: Bonjour Syd -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:14:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Bonjour Syd 2 -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:20:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Diz -:- Re: Bonjour Syd 2 -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:45:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Bonjour Syd 2 -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:50:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Diz -:- Re: Bonjour Syd 2 -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 00:19:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ syd -:- Re: Bonjour Syd 2 -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:17:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Diz -:- Re: Bonjour Syd 2 -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 00:16:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Kinda Like The Star Wars Bar ^..^ (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:01:37 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:00:23 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sri Hans' letter to JFK
Message:
Below is a copy of a real letter, which Sri Hans, Prempal's father, or rather his ghost writer Sri S. R. Yogi (!) wrote and sent to John F. Kennedy on March 2, 1961.

It was reprinted in a small publication by DLM/India (Shaktinagar, Delhi) in 1962, titled 'Antidote to Nuclear Bombs'.

Should be fun reading for those who are interested in the early days of DLM/EV (something for your site, Jean-Michel?) I think it says quite a lot about Sri Hans' agenda: there can be no doubt about the fact that he wanted to spread his mission to the world. He actually suggests JFK to receive Knowledge!

There is no telling whether he ever received an answer from JFK.

*********************************************

From
Sri R. S. Yogi,
Managing Editor
Views & Voice
Divine Light Mission,
B. 19/3 Shaktinagar,
Delhi 6 (India)

To
Mr. John F. Kennedy,
President of U. S. A.
Washington;
Dated: Delhi, the 2nd March, 1961

Dear Mr. President,

I crave your indulgence to address you this letter. The inaugural address you delivered at Washington on Jan 20, last is the finest piece of speech ever delivered by any head of state in the present generation. The sacred pledge you took by swearing before Almighty God with a copy of the holy Bible in your hand to take all possible steps for the survival and success of liberty and elimination of mass miseries and to assure a more fruitful life for all mankind has infused a new ray of hope against the danger of total annihilation of human race. You are rightly conscious that the dark powers of destruction unleased by science might engulf all humanity in planned or accidental self destruction. Your suggestions to the nations of the world to formulate serious and precise proposals for the inspection and control of arms, to invoke the wonders of science instead of its terrors and to create a new world of law where the strong are just, the weak secure and the peace preserved and lastly your call for the quest of peace are praise-worthy and hopeful and just what could be expected from a great man of your calibre, mettle and position.

The conception, however, that inspection, control or even total destruction of arms would eliminate wars and establish peace seems unrealistic. We think wars are not caused mere due to arms. Wars are the products of unbalanced and diseased minds. Peace also is not an absence of wars. It is indeed a sublime faculty of mind in which the very tendency of all conflicts becomes extinct. Battle for elimination of all conflicts and for establishment of peace, therefore, has to be fought in the minds of men and then only your high aims could be achieved. Similarly material prosperity alone can not vouchsafe real happiness. Real happiness comes from contentment which also is a faculty of mind. To a man of unbalanced mind material plenty provides material comforts with added anxieties and agonies which bring miseries in the end. Material prosperity is helpful only to a man of equanimous mind. For peace as well as for real happiness therefore, equanimity of mind is absolutely necessary.

It is often argued that acquisition of equanimity of mind is a personal concern of the individual. It cannot be tried on mass scale on the earth. Such arguments are quite unjustified and unconvincing.

Man is the primary unit of human race. What affects the man affects the whole world. As for development of any branch of learning, instructions are imparted to individual student, similarly for establishment of peace and happiness, instructions could easily be imparted to each individual to acquire equanimity of mind. And by a planned programme desired results could be achieved very quickly. Book education takes more than a decade but equanimity of mind can be acquired even within an hour. The only thing most needed is the intense desire for it.

Mind attains equanimity and tranquility by concentration on DIVINE LIGHT which is eternal, omnipresent, constant and everlasting. Visualisation of this self-effulgent Divine light within ownself absolves the mind of all delusions and the germs of lust, greed, hatred, fear and jalousies - real causes of conflicts and miseries are burnt to ashes. It releases the force of unity amongst all living beings and eliminates the forces of disruption. A man with equanimous mind can not do harm to any living being. He sees the same omnipresent soul in all men. The current of his thoughts influences other also and even the most ferocious animal is rendered incapable of inflicting any harm in his presence. If the equanimity of mind is attained by men today wars will be uprooted from this earth root and branch and everlasting peace and happiness will descend on this earth spontaneously.

Visualisation of Divine Light and the knowledge of the real name of the Almighty God cannot be acquired by study of books, performance of penance, sacrifices or rituals or by counting of beads. It is acquired with the personal contact and with the help of the Realised soul - SAD-GURU of the time only. A candle cannot be burnt by recital of its burning formulas nor can it be burnt by its contact with any extinguished light. It can be burnt by its physical contact with a burning light only. Similarly visualisation of Divine Light and Knowledge of His real Name is acquired by the personal contact contact with and aid of the living REALISED SOUL - SADGURU only. His real Name is incapable of being written by alphabets of any literature. It cannot be uttered with tongues. It is capable of being realised only. It is present in all living beings alike. Only man can, however, realise it. All living beings are conscious of His real Name while in the womb. It is capable of being meditated upon in all circumstances - whether awake or asleep, whether engaged in wars or while relaxing. It is the same for all. Knowledge of His such omnipresent Real Name quickly helps visualisation of Divine light and absolves mind of all delusion and weakness.

Lord Jesus Christ, Lord Krishna, Lord Buddha, Swami Ramkrishna were all realised souls and they taught this truth. Lives of lacs of people in India today who have acquired visualisation of Divine Light and the knowledge of His Real Name with the kind help of Paramsant Sadgurudev Shri Hansji Maharaj of Haridwar bear testimony to the truth that they have identified themselves with all living beings and while working in various spheres of life, their minds are absolutely absolved of all feeling of caste, creed, religion, region, position, fear, hatred and the like. They are quite happy in themselvses. They know no misery. No event of the world disturbs them even the least. If the mankind of the world or even a substantial number of them would acquire this faculty of mind, all the conflicts and miseries would be eliminated and peace and happiness would down on this earth spontaneously. And in this way a new world could be created where there will remain no wars, no misery and everlasting peace and happiness would reign.

The intensity of your desire to root out miseries and to bring peace and prosperity to the mankind, discerned in your inaugural speech has encouraged me to address you this letter and to seek your leave to request you to personally acquire the visualisation of the DIVINE LIGHT and the knowledge of HIS REAL Name within yourself. In this you might be helped by Paramsant SAD-GURU DEV Shri Hansju Maharaj of Prem Nagar, Haridwar (INDIA). He is the Realised Soul of the present age. If you be so pleased, you may contact him either in India or in your own country. The moment you would acquire the visualisation of the DIVINE LIGHT and the knowledge of His REAL NAME, the onerous task you have undertaken to perform, would become quite easy of performance and you would be able to create the world of your dream where mankind would be blessed with everlasting peace and happiness and heaven would down on this earth.

I hope you will give due consideration to my humble suggestion and try to acquire God-Vision and the knowledge of His Real Name for the goos of humanity whose very existence has been threatened.

With profound respects.

I remain,
yours truly
R. S. Yogi

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 21:42:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Fuck you, Maharaji, you fucking jerk (non-aggressive post by the way)
Message:
It is acquired with the personal contact and with the help of the Realised soul - SAD-GURU of the time only. A candle cannot be burnt by recital of its burning formulas nor can it be burnt by its contact with any extinguished light. It can be burnt by its physical contact with a burning light only. Similarly visualisation of Divine Light and Knowledge of His real Name is acquired by the personal contactwith and aid of the living REALISED SOUL - SADGURU only.

Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited to get such a clear-cut reminder of the hook I bit and how the fat, little Hamster's gone and buried it deep in the fatty brains of his fish so they can't even remember what happened.

It was the touch! You had to have the touch.

The most intriguing aspect of k when I was shopping was the notion that the God-man himself empowered channels (like Jagdeo, for instance) to bestow his self-effulgent light. What the fuck happened?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 19:58:48 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Happy
Subject: Back to the womb..?
Message:
I found this section interesting:

All living beings are conscious of His real Name while in the womb.

I posted recently about the possibilty that the deep relaxation, pleasure-sensations and formless consciousness experienced by some people in meditation (no matter what kind) has nothing to do with infinity or spirit. Instead they involve a temporary return to an infantile bliss-state that existed before our perceptual systems had developed properly - and for sound evolutionary reasons.
(Gregg, I think mentioned someone else who had a similar explanation - but who also wanted to differentiate between genuinely 'spiritual' and 'non-spiritual experiences'; this is not a distinction that I would make).

As for Shri Hans' claim that: It is capable of being meditated upon in all circumstances - whether awake or asleep, whether engaged in wars or while relaxing

I doubt there is any truth in this claim whatsoever. Nobody can remain conscious for twenty-four hours a day - though I am sure there are premies who like to convince themselves and others that they do meditate whilst asleep. (I seem to remember sleeping whilst meditating was far more common...)

There is certainly consciousness of a kind during REM sleep, but not during deep sleep. I daresay Hans ji's hyperbole has been dropped by guru junior for the same reason he stopped talking about pineal glands being the divine interface and source of nectar.

Namely, it was bullshit.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:10:22 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Happy
Subject: Kewl ! (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 14:45:48 (EDT)
From: bullocks
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: nut and tree
Message:
the meglomaniac nut seed doesnt fall far from the
meglomaniac nut tree
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:49:12 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Re: Sri Hans' letter to JFK
Message:
Dear Happy,

Thanks for the post. One thing that this letter reveals is the contrast between Shri Hans and Rawat, and how much 'evolution' the present Satguru has accomplished. Makes one wonder what Shri Hans would think of the job his son is doing.

Can you imagine how differently the current meditation teacher would write to the current president:

Dear Mr. Clinton,

In times of personal trouble, it is best to turn inside, to an experience within. Anyone can experience this experience. Even public liars can have this experience. Even lame-ducks with girlfriends named Monica can experience this experience. Everybody has their own take on it. It's a little hard to pin-down, but if you would like to receive this experience, let me know. You could be my student and we could bring this experience to the whole world.

Sincerely,

Maharaji,
teacher and advisor

p.s. about that surplus...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 14:19:11 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Sri Hans' letter to JFK
Message:
Excellent. Here's more.

Dear President Clinton:

I know your ability to raise hundreds of millions of dollars in campaign contributions is legendary. I am in awe of you. You see, I never have enough money. It is a serious problem. Can you help me? Can you supply me with the names of very rich individuals on your donor lists so I might approach them for some hard cash?

Also, if you are interested, I reveal 'knowledge' which is a meditation that gives people a nice 'experience.' Kind of like what marajuana does, but then I know you didn't inhale so you wouldn't know. I do not claim anymore, although I used to, and unlike my Father, that it will have any effect on the world whatsoever. People who receive knowledge go through hard times and are unhappy just as much as anyone else. And from my experience they commit suicide and are back-stabbing just like anyone else, maybe more so. But it makes people feel better sometimes to think they have something special to rely on, no matter what happens -- kind of like knowing you can always take a drink or smoke a doobie, but, again, I know you didn't inhale so you wouldn't know.

Knowledge will have no effect whatsoever on whether or not there are wars. Just look at India where more people have knowledge than anywhere else. It's on the brink of war with Pakistan at all times, and Hindus and Moslems slaughter each other with regularity.

Sorry about the Senate defeating the Test Ban Treaty. But who gives a fuck? Just stick you tongue down your throat, send me some cash and forget about it.

Very truly yours,

Prem Pal Sing Rawat (Maharaji, formerly Guru Maharaj Ji, formerly Lord of the Universe, and sometimes, Perfect Master)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 14:31:19 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: PS to Clinton
Message:
PS:
And Mr.President, if you'd be so kind as to make some special arrangements, so that those silly people from the IRS don't come knocking on my door....well perhaps in that case, I will be able to come up with some cash for you. You know how it works, Mr. President, you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours!!

Once again, Happy New Breath to you and your loved ones!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 14:29:21 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Way & JW
Subject: Re: Sri Hans' letter to JFK
Message:
Hilarious...
thanks to both of you!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 11:43:08 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: All
Subject: To the premies here
Message:
A suggestion:

Many of the current premies who post here claim a uniqueness about Knowledge. This is one illusion that would be easily broken by a comparision study of other groups very similar to Elan Vital. There are many of them, and some are so similar it's almost uncanny. Did you know, for instance, that Siddha Yoga offers the exact same four techniques revealed by Rawat. There is a charge for initiation - $400.00. Shri Mataji Nirmala Devi's cult, called Sahaja Yoga, also has stunning parallels. Others with close parallels are Adidam, Ananda, Eckankar, Osho, Kriya Yoga, Divine Love Mission, Gangaji, and on and on. Check out these very helpful websites:

Religious Movements Homepage, the Univ. of Virginia (very complete on Elan Vital)
Rick Ross
Leaving Siddha Yoga
Sahaja Yoga:facts
Ananda Awareness Network
Hum Drum: Guru Ratings
Scientology kills
Ari's stop abuse by spiritual authorities

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 03:35:44 (EDT)
From: Jack Brabham
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: To the premies here
Message:
That's bullshit. I am apersonal friend of the dear lady who is the Guru of Siddah Yoga .Lived with her for years. Same wrapping ;different present.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:28:57 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jack Brabham
Subject: To Jack
Message:
Jack,

Could you be more specific? You mis-spelled Siddha Yoga, so I'm not sure how seriously to take you. Have you received Knowledge from both Maharaji and Gurumayi? One of the people who was in the same Knowledge session with me, in 1975, took Shaktipat from Gurumayi in the early 90's. He told me the techniques were exactly the same four. Do you dispute this?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 23:45:01 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Way
Subject: Re: To the premies here
Message:
Hi Way

I don't think a lot of premies who read here would be particularly surprised by what you have said, if they have read about the Rhadasoami connections, I'm certainly not.

Actually, in my view, the Rhadasoami movement gives a valid context for Maharaji and his background, it adds a lot of richness. Anyway, M himself says that he is not saying and offering anything new.....so what's your real point?

I think that while it may be said that many roads can lead to the same destination (they may even look the same) a traveller can only walk on one road at a time (not all, or even a few simultaneously). True, he can turn around, go back and recommence his journey on another road, but if his time is limited, he may never get to the destination if he does this too often.

Personally, I think it is best to travel on one road if I've found one, that way I may have a good chance of reaching my destination. This does not mean that the road that I'm travelling is the only one, though, does it? but it suffices me thank you very much.

(Sorry about the pun in my opening greeting)

Regards

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 13:59:07 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Hi Mel
Message:
Hi Mel,

howya doin? Hope you and the family are all well and happy.

In your post you talk about turning back and going down another road.

I thought that each of walked a single path between birth and death. And that we moved, through time, in a single direction along it. We had little, or no choice, about the turns it took and who we met along the way, and what we believed at different times, and how full of surprises the journey was.

And so it seems to me Mel, there is only one path for each of us. All this stuff going on around us is litter in the wind. We can't turn back. The leaves are going to fall from the tree in autumn, and new buds pop out in spring. There's nothing anyone can do to stop it, change it, or make it go back.

You also say, 'Many roads can lead to the same destination'. I thought there was one common destination for each and everyone of us, and we were all going to get there whatever we did or believed in life.

Whaddya think Mel?

Anth the Fullofficer.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 02:57:22 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: That's not the the way it was sold to us...
Message:
Mel, you wrote:

Personally, I think it is best to travel on one road if I've found one, that way I may have a good chance of reaching my destination. This does not mean that the road that I'm travelling is the only one, though, does it? but it suffices me thank you very much. [my emphasis]

Shri Hans (above) wrote:

Similarly visualisation of Divine Light and Knowledge of His real Name is acquired by the personal contactwith and aid of the living<> REALISED SOUL - SADGURU only. [my emphasis]

Shri Hans, and Maharaji after him, claimed the exclusive power to reveal Knowledge. One Master on the planet at the time. Surely you cannot have forgotten, Mel. M said it enough times. If Rawat gurus I and II had never portayed themselves as being the sole source of Knowledge, the Living Lord, etc., thousands would never have joined and this website would probably not exist right now. Even if M never calls himself Lord any more, I find it highly significant he never compares notes with other living teachers or recommends alternative routes, etc. assuming such things exist in his worldview.

(Personally I don't believe in 'roads' - or even if they feel like roads, that they actually lead anywhere - but that is not my point, here)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 03:46:53 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: That's not the the way it was sold to us...
Message:
Hi Nigel

Yes, Nigel, it's a real quandry, isn't it? So many Sat(Sad)gurus in the Rhadasoami tradition! 'Will the real Guru Maharaj Ji, please stand up! (200 hundred immediately rise to their Lotus feet!) Confusion, who's real? All? some? one only? none at all?

Who cares? To me my Guru Maharaj Ji is the real one, even if to the rest of the world he proves to be a total fake. Why? Because he has put me in contact with the 'source of peace' via the Knowledge and shown me an undeniable experience, he may also be real for someone else too, but not necessarily.

I can't remember which one of the 'Pefect Masters' it was, but in response to an allegation that he materialised magically in front of a devotee, he responded that he had no knowledge of himself materialising in that way, but that it was an aspect of the quality of the devotee's 'devotion' that catalysed the event. (A very humble Guru Maharaj Ji, makes no claim to any power, shakti or anything else). I remember reading this somewhere in Lane's Radhasoami treatise.

So maybe it has something to do with the quality of a 'devotee's' personal faith and dedication that is the key component here, may be the 'Guru Maharaj Ji' factor is simply a focus designed to bring out the best, irrespective of the 'reality' of any claims.

This seems in accordance with some reports of people's 'near death' experiences and visions. Buddhists see Buddha, Christians see Jesus, Catholics see the Virgin Mary etc, etc. To me this indicates that experiences of 'God' may manifest themselves according to their traditional faith, but the experience of peace or love attendant with the visions is supposed to be the same.

Anyway, this is just my speculation. Is it possible that Mr Rawatt can focus and elicit this 'devotion' in the same way as the other 'Guru Maharaj Jis'? In my view, YES it's entirely possible. Is he the only way? I really don't know.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:00:56 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Who Cares? -- The Premie Mantra
Message:
Who cares? To me my Guru Maharaj Ji is the real one, even if to the rest of the world he proves to be a total fake.

This is what it takes, doesn't it Mel. The only way you can get around Maharaji's deceptions, flip flops, and downright ineptitude it no not care. It's very sad, Mel.

And Mel, what made you so unhappy and you need meditation and the ability to worship another person to make you happy? Or do you care?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 20:58:03 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Who Cares? -- The Premie Mantra
Message:
It cleary a devotional trip for Mel. Meditation is optional.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 14:09:12 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: The Real Maharaji
Message:
Hi Mel,

I feel like I'm following you around the bar, sploshing Guinness as I go.

I'd like to ask you about this concept of 'Guru Maharaji'. What the hell is it Mel? Anything more than lots of people telling us someone else is God. The 'Perfect Master' myth that you mention.

And then there's the second big concept that we bought, that whatever we feel when we do the techniques, is somehow supposed to be the 'source of peace', (the God is snot theory).

Throw out those couple of dozy old concepts Mel, and see what you've got left. Think a bit. Use your that beautiful brain the creator grew in your skull.

take care

anth the iconoclass of 68.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 11:36:43 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: You just gave away the store, Mel
Message:
Is he the only way? I really don't know.

That means taht you don't know if Shri Hans was full of shit or not. Thanks. End of story.

Next?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 05:30:55 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Devotion
Message:
So maybe it has something to do with the quality of a 'devotee's' personal faith and dedication that is the key component here, may be the 'Guru Maharaj Ji' factor is simply a focus designed to bring out the best, irrespective of the 'reality' of any claims.

I think this attitude is the crux of the matter, and I suspect this devotional yoga, carried through in a single-minded fashion, would give the practiser overwhelming feelings of 'love' and 'peace' and devotion. Logically, as long as the devotee believes in the guru, the guru could be a normal person, with all the weaknesses that human beings are prone to.

So, OK something is gained for the devotee that may not be available to other people, but at what cost? Honesty seems an early casualty, as does the ability to reason. If the devotion becomes exclusive, by definition, love of friends and family also goes by the wayside. Look at all those stories of devotees from the hindu scriptures we were fed. Abandoning your friends and family for devotion was repeatedly held up as admirable.

The only justification for such a selfish pursuit of personal feelings of 'love' and 'peace' is if the object of the devotion was in fact God. If there is doubt about this, as there certainly is for Rawat, then the devotee is nothing more than a masturbater.

What do you think Mel?

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 08:52:32 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Devotion
Message:
Well John, you ask 'What do I think?'

If Knowledge brings happiness into peoples lives then it can only be a postive thing for them and people around them. I mean happiness is happiness unqualified. I think most people prefer to be around happy people than miserable people, right?

What is wrong with the promotion of happiness and well being in a world full of sadness and depression? The problem is that we have had all these preconceived notions about how we should practice Knowledge and this has been the major problem. People are beginning to realise that you can be free in every sense of the word and still practice and experience Knowledge, it's not based on the ritual worship of personality, it's based on the direct process of life itself. The experience comes first and then a natural expression of gratitude to the teacher can be expressed if you want, but this isn't mandatory.

If you had a useful tool that you gave as a present to some one who needed it, would you get the most pleasure out of seeing that the tool was being used often and properly or would you get the most pleasure by constantly being thanked, and thanked and thanked!!! for the gift which is left unused. Do you get my drift?

In my view, premies have a potential for great joy that they can share with each other and others. It doesn't have to be restrictive and exclusive in the way that you suggest, and certainly '...Abandoning your friends and family for devotion' often leads to great unhappiness. Maharaji doesn't ask that, all he asks is that we enjoy the Knowledge, the experience based by focussing on the processes that keep us alive ie, Life itself. Now you tell me, what's mastabatory or selfish about that?

Mel

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:49:57 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Patty worships a piece of plastic...
Message:
No, I'm not talking about sex toys here... She gets quite an 'experience' from listening to hemi-synch brain entrainment CD's.

The experience comes first and then a natural expression of gratitude to the teacher can be expressed if you want, but this isn't mandatory.

Well, thank god for that! I can't stand to see her slobbering over the cd player any more. And she can finally give up the compulsion to send monthly checks to the Monroe Institute. I wonder what's on those things anyway...

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 04:58:15 (EDT)
From: An Occasional Observer
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: To: Mel Bourne
Message:
Mel said:'Who cares? To me my Guru Maharaj Ji is the real one, even if to the rest of the world he proves to be a total fake. '

Does that mean that anything he does (or doesn't do) is ok with you you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 08:13:25 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: An Occasional Observer
Subject: To: Occassional Observer...closer observation please!
Message:
No OO....

...not at all. In my opinion M is as responsible for his own behaviour as is any one else in this world, however, my appraisal of him as my teacher isn't based on his personal behaviour, but simply on the quality of what he claims for the experience of Knowledge and my personal appraisal to see if what he says is correct. The fact is that for me what he says regarding Knowledge is undeniably correct. I couldn't refute this experience even if I wanted to.

His personality and behaviour obviously rankle with a lot of people, especially on this site. However, many talented people (artists, musicians etc) who bring enjoyment into people's lives with their particular gifts seem to have chronic behavioural problems as well. People tend to ignore this and focus on the positive accomplishments. Why should Maharaji be treated any differently in this regard? Despite all the unsubstantiated allegations and rhetoric that I've read on this site for well over a year, I've yet to be convinced that Maharaji's 'negatives' outweigh his dedication to the promotion and spreading of Knowledge, certainly the quality of Knowledge speaks for itself.

Mel

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 11:40:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Too muich, Mel, now you insult Maharaji too!
Message:
His personality and behaviour obviously rankle with a lot of people, especially on this site. However, many talented people (artists, musicians etc) who bring enjoyment into people's lives with their particular gifts seem to have chronic behavioural problems as well.

Are you saying Maharaji has 'chronic behavioural problems' or are you saying that that's only 'possible'? Either way, with friends like you .....

Too much. Absolutely too much. You're such a dolt if you can't see what you're doing. Maharaji would cringe with anger and embarrassment if he read your post.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:24:51 (EDT)
From: Cynthia G
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: May I interject something here?
Message:
Mel,

If you are at peace with maharaji and knowledge, what brings you here? You seem to be out of the loop as regards older premies who are still practicing and worshipping maharaji as Lord. I have experienced very private conversations with long-time premies who are still hanging onto maharaji--believe me the conversations are no different than they were twenty years ago.

Why does M allow old VERY devotional music to be made into instumentals? Have you ever sang arti or read the words? To me this is nothing more than a nostalgia trap. He wants the old time premies to stay because they are the most obedient to him (especially old ashram premies in America who have held on). They are really the hard core, lifetime believers, who are able to accept his censorship, i.e., nobody talks about knowledge except Maharaji. Sooo, if he is your master/teacher, why are you not obeying his wishes? He's made it abundantly clear he doesn't want people with knowledge (old or new) to talk about him or knowlege. How do you reconcile that?

Furthermore, the last program maharaji had in Montreal included a knowledge session. Two weeks or so before the program was the selection process, which 3 local aspirants attended. It was told to the 'aspirant coordinator' that what Belki was looking for in aspirants is 'that connection to, and love for maharaji, more than a desire to receive knowledge.' Do you know why Mel? Because of the money.

Have you ever lived in an ashram? Maharaji recently eliminated Mahatmas and Bais in India. Many are very old and past retirement age. I think it's very sad to throw people out on the street when they has spent a lifetime in devotion and obedience to their master. Sadly, they probably consider it 'lila, the divine play of the lord.'

This may be off the subject, but at least if a Catholic (I was raised one) wants to become a nun or a priest, the church takes care of them until retirement and to their last breath. What has Maharaji done with our money? Mansions, planes, helicopters, wealth off the backs of his followers. If you don't believe that, you are certainly in denial. It is always proclaimed that one never needs to give money to go to maharaji program. It's just not true. Without the dollars spent by his followers, m would never have made it off the ground. I know this from personal experience.

This is not about the experience of k but about the leader. If someone proclaims to be able to put you in touch with your very life force, I think that he certainly has some answering to do about his behavior, because a lot of it is quite bad.

I sincerely believe that if I were a millionare and contacted EV this minute and offered a large amount of money, I would immediately be sought after, brought to the residence, and welcomed. As a premie from the 70's, I am positive I would be allowed to kiss his feet. I have no doubt about this. So, for me, Maharaji is a very sick person, who is still a child in a 40+ body. His demands for his playthings are increasingly more outrageous and ridiculous. Knowledge is and never was for free. That's the big come-on. And the cost of receiving knowledge for those of us from the 70's was everything: our minds and thoughts, our trust, our devotion to maharaji, and our money.

So, do as you wish with your life, it's none of my business. I was just curious why you are talking about Maharaji when he has asked you not to, and your need to lurk here puzzles me.

Best wishes with your life, Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:04:06 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: A Challenge to Mel
Message:
Mel,
Look, Mel, let's get this straight. You get a good experience from meditating. Fair enough - I know meditation can give a powerful, beautiful, experience. You also don't care how the meditiation teacher behaves. Now that's also fair enough. The meditation has been taught, what the teacher then does is not your business. I listen to music by musicians who have lifestyles I don't like, but that's none of my business.

But premies do not treat Maharaji like a musician. They are incapable of criticising him. Prove me wrong - say something critical of your teacher on this forum. It's a challenge no premie has ever accepted.

And if you cannot, then compare your attitude towards Maharaji to your attitude to artists whose work you admire.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:18:21 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: To Mel
Message:
Mel,

Thanks for responding to my suggestion. But again, I urge you to read the sites. It's really a fascinating study and you would do well to educate yourself. Do read 'Satsang with Gangaji' and the Sahaja Yoga sites - both pro and con. Read about the downfall of Muktananda and of Swami Kriyananda.

You asked what my point is. After you have done the reading, my point will become obvious. Gurudom is a trap, for both the guru and the disciples. You MUST approach your own higher self as yourself, not as a devotee of somebody else. This is imperative.

Let me know if you take my advice and how it goes.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 10:46:15 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maybe it IS time for passwords
Message:
This place IS indeed a mess right now. All these anonymous pests saying nothing worth reading. Really, what would be so bad about needing a password, one, I assume, that gets you in automatically and which you wouldn't have to type all the time?

Downside

Like Katie said, it would be a bit of a barrier to new posters. Instead of being able to post 'Hi, after a couple of years resisting, my husband and I finally got online. On a whim I did a search for my old guru, wondering what ever came of him and lo and behold, this! I'm amazed at some of the stuff I've seen here. Like, I haven't thought about him all that much especially the last ten years or so. Still, it's pretty weird to know that he's still in business at such a limp level. Too much!, we'll see more of Hi. After reading this page for the last week or so I thought I'd finally bite the bullet and join in. Something someone said the other day about Maharaji's own childhood really made me wonder ..... That is, people will have to take that one extra step of signing up to contribute. Might not happen the first day they happen upon the forum.

Upside

So what? Say we don't get to hear from some extremely casual reader who wishes to anonymously post one or two gadfly comments and then split. Is that really such a loss? I don't think so.

The real advantage of some measure of control is that we get away from the irresponsible jerks who can't get past treating the forum like a New York subway wall. As it stands now, the medium is every bit as accessible to them as to people who sincerely want to discuss the subjects relevant to this forum. That's a weakness of the medium that password authorization can help correct. I mean, just think of all the time that's wasted guessing identities. Think of the scurrillous confusion premies cause by posting for some time as one person only to start up again as another. This is all bullshit and, like Gerry suggests, we should do something about it. 'Something' boils down to one thing and that's 'control'. We need to exert some control here. We'll never have unanimity on the issues themselves but we can, at least, have the comfort of knowing with some consistency who we're talking to. I can't think of any way of having that without some form of password authorization.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 14:52:00 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Maybe it IS time for passwords
Message:
I have to sign up when I go to other forums on
other subjects.
I doubt signing up would have stopped anyone. If it is
made like other invitations to join other forums
and not have an entry warning like rawats home page has.

Done with a minimum of 'I do swear to .......'
Just let sign up be automatic with new passwords
for each person and have the passwords automatically
added to the ok list and then if they misbehave, delete
thier password. Whatever.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 11:53:15 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Who would a password have stopped?
Message:
Would Malibu Mole have asked for one? How about the premies who you argue with, most of them I would have been pleased to have never have had to read their drivel. But it was actually interesting to read some of the arguments , OP and Barbara come to mind. How about the people who arrived as premies and are here now as ex's? We should ask them if a password would have scared them away.

I sound like I am against it but I am not. I am really sick of the garbage.

Your post was excellent by the way.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 10:54:00 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Maybe it IS time for passwords
Message:

Sounds good to me. It has my vote. I say lets do it.
I just hope I'm given a password:)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 12:33:14 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave (retired)
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Some major pitfalls
Message:
With Paradise forums you can password protect either reading a forum, writing to a forum or both. In other words, a forum can be available to be read by anyone but can only be posted to by password holders.

I still can't see how a password could stop inappropriate posters because if the password was given out to all people who said they were an ex-premie or 'thinking' premie, then the inappropriate posters could use any old hotmail address and made-up name and then have access to write their posts.

And furthermore; once some inappropriate posters started blitzing the forum, what would you do? Change the password? But how would you know which people to exclude from the new password? You simply wouldn't know which email addresses were those of inappropriate posters.

The only way in which I see password protection could be workable is if you had a small clique of posters as with the 'Recent ex-premie forum'. A forum with a large amount of posters could be a nightmare to try to password protect. But it could be tried, as an experiment.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 20:38:29 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave (retired)
Subject: Dave, are you ever wrong
Message:
A forum with a large amount of posters could be a nightmare to try to password protect. But it could be tried, as an experiment.

(emphasis added although why bother when this shit just leaps out at you)

Dave,

It's 'number', not 'amount'. If it's possibly countable, it's 'number'. Watch it, will 'ya?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 21:00:54 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave (retired)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Dave, are you ever wrong
Message:
I also started a sentence with the word 'but' and another one with "and". Right, it's back to the hair shirt for me!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 09:39:26 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Cults and PTSD
Message:
--

Copyright ©1999, Steve Hassan Freedom of Mind

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 16:24:48 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Cults and PTSD
Message:
Thanks Joey. This in my opinion is the forum at its best.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 19:11:49 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Cults and PTSD
Message:
Enough,

I'm glad that you found the article interesting and of value.

I thought it was very timely, because last week we were talking about recent exes. Well increasingly our recent exes, especially those who have had a long term involvement in the cult will be more likely to encounter these kind of PTSD symptons, when leaving. At least that's what professionals in the field are observing, and as you can see its becoming clearly documented in the literature.

And the information is personally relevant for myself, because when I left the cult over 13 months ago, I DID experience a few near black-outs over a one month period, which were diagnosed as symptons of PTSD.

Its easier for me to talk about it now on this forum...well perhaps its easier for me to talk about almost anything on this forum then it was when I first starting posting...and also knowing that these episodes are behind me, makes it easier as well.

There's more thats been written on the subject of 'cults and PTSD' and as soon as I track the material down I'll post it as well.

Thanks.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 19:43:55 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Cults and PTSD
Message:
Great! Even though I've spent extensive time tracking down cult info, I really hadn't seen that extensive of a look at PTSD, which I suffered from and probably still do. When I left the cult in 1996, it was so intense I had to join the Prozac Generation for a year. It helped.

I could point out many many things about this report but what really hit home were the following:

1)88% of PTSD suffers reported feelings of emptiness. M uses the term 'longing' much when satsanging. He says to embrace it. Does he take cult symptons and turn them to his advantage?

2) most of us were ages 18-30 when we signed up for the cult-this is the prime age group for susceptibles. Since premies have been unable to present a favorable image of their cult to their own children(% wise very few children of premies have joined), this cult is doomed to fail in the long run because it cannot reproduce itself.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 21:17:54 (EDT)
From: Lurking Ex
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Something strange going on
Message:
Ummmmmm-has anyone else gotten the feeling that there is someone here lately who is pretending to be other posters by changing the browser type they are showing? Didn't someone who posted at AG tell people how to do that?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 19:17:09 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Lurking Ex
Subject: Re: Something strange going on
Message:
I can do it with my browser, as you can see, you can't do it with AOL, I doubt IE on a win machine, although if you were an ISP and shipping an OEM IE yo might be able to change it but techinically, by copyright law one shouldn't. Is there a specific message somewhere
Ben, the original Lurker. Also it is just a text field so it can not do any harm. Another way is posting form differnt machines or the same machine using different browsers.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 19:25:48 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Example of changed Browser
Message:
So here is the 'changed example'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 21:32:15 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Here is another example
Message:
Here is another example
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 05:15:20 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Lurking Ex
Subject: Re: Something strange going on
Message:
The something strange going on at the moment is twelve lines of dots appearing after your post. Is it just me or can everyone see them?

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 05:23:58 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave (retired)
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Something strange going on
Message:
Yes they're all there on my computer too and there's more dotted lines in threads below further down the page. Two sets of two at the moment. Since the lines are of unequal length it would be safe to assume they've been inserted manually.

Regarding the changing browser settings, that was explained here some months ago and then again more recently on the AG forum.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 06:43:39 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Sir Dave (retired)
Subject: Re: Something strange going on
Message:
Dear John and Dave,
I don't see dots, I went back to this original post and I don't see dots. Is this like not hearing the music when Dave puts it on his site?
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 07:15:44 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave (retired)
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Something strange going on
Message:
Well the dots have gone now, Robyn but now, as you can see, there's kangaroos hopping about all over the page. Surely you can see them!?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 10:52:41 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Sir Dave (retired)
Subject: Re: Something strange going on
Message:
Dear Dave,
Must be I am not pressing my eyes hard enough for that! :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 09:44:33 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave (retired)
Subject: Re: Something strange going on
Message:
Well the dots have gone now, Robyn but now, as you can see, there's kangaroos hopping about all over the page. Surely you can see them!?

Now those I see! But anybody who's seeing dots is crazy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:12:31 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: Meet and Drink in London
Message:
The next London exes meeting will take place in the London Latvian Club bar in Bayswater this coming Friday, 29th October, from 7:30 pm. Latvian beer and vodka available.

Confirmed attendees are Anth and myself. All are welcome, address available by email. Premies should bring an expression of their appreciation.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 11:36:34 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: The Agenda
Message:
Hi John,

I assume the agenda will be the same as last time.

8.00pm Latvian Beer.

9.00pm Another type of Latvian Beer.

10.00pm Ok we'll try the strong one then.

11.00pm Hooerkay weell try ther Lvinan pul tblahle.

12.00pm Yerth brtndr, weell cllean it up, tenn gohorme.

Anth the Latvian.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:18:07 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: The Agenda
Message:
Draugi!

Antam ir taisniba. Pirms, vienu latvieðu alu, pec tam, vel vienu latvieðu alu, un pec tam, vienu vai trîs stîprais latvieðu alu. Vçlak, varbut mçs vaisim spçlet novus - tas ir latvieðu bilijards.

Es ceru daudz exes varisi atbraukt!

John (feeling particularly Latvian)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:18:22 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: The Agenda
Message:
Dear John,
Bilijards - pool
exes - exes
Love,
Robyn learning Latvian :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:27:37 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Latvian Lesson
Message:
Hi Robyn,

I think, 'Vçlak, varbut mçs vaisim spçlet novus - tas ir latvieðu bilijards. ' means, 'I promise we won't throw up on the pool table again.'

Anth the Lexicon

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:17:54 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Latvian Lesson
Message:
Apologies, I misspelt a word - it should have said:-

Vçlak, varbut mçs varisim spçlet novus - tas ir latvieðu bilijards.

It simply means, 'Later, maybe we can play novus - that's Latvian pool'. I must learn how to say 'If you can't take Latvian beer, then carry a plastic bag to throw up in'.

John the Latvian student

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:30:26 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Latvian Lesson
Message:
Dear Anth,
I see... spçlet - puke :)
Love,
Robyn the Latvian language student
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 14:08:03 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Latvian Lesson
Message:
Who's the guilty party with respect to the messy pool table?
Inquiring minds want to know!

Marianne

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:14:19 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Earth
Message:
I saw an Indian movie last night called Earth. It was about Indian Partition in 1947. It was set in Lahore and was about Hindus leaving to go to the new India and moslems slaugtering them.

I could help wonder and I've wondered about the politics before, if m's father left Lahore for political reasons. I know he was in Lahore at one time and his Guru was in Lahore. Anyone know the historical facts about m's father? Was he connected to an Ashram in Haridwar & lived in Deradun before partition or did he always live in Lahore and had to leave? If so how did he come to own various ashrams including Prem Negar & Delhi & be the head Guru of Divine Light Mission?
Interesting stuff IMHO.

Inquiring minds like mine want to know this 'trivia.' I know from experiences in India with the Arya Samaj that this divine mission has been quite politically involved. Perhaps that's just the way religion is in India.

Fred

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 08:41:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Interesting subject, isn't it?
Message:
Fred,

I think one window for seeing into (and through) the cult is this kind of simple, factual historical perspective. I know so little about the roots of DLM although some, particularly Anon and JM, have done a good job looking into the Rhadsoami connection and JM's collected that info, as you know, on his site. Still, it'd be nice to know more, wouldn't it?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:49:29 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Forum Administers
Subject: Taking out the garbage
Message:
Howdy Gents,

Time for a little fall cleaning, I'd say. Lots of junk 'posts' with nothing in them and a lot of premie vomitus cluttering up the place. How about deleting some of the crap? It takes too much time to wade through. If you'd trust my judgement, I'd be happy to take up janitorial duties.

Also, I'd like to hear what folks think about making this a password protected forum to keep the likes of 'Rob' et al from junking up the place. It's clear their main purpose is disruption and antagonism, which we could do without.

Password to post only; anyone could read.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 23:47:32 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: ickymickey@home.com
To: gerry
Subject: Paradise is Hell
Message:
gerry:

Posting to this forum is a chore. The 'frames' option on the old Forum III made that process relatively efficient, but this is just tedious. I prefer usenet. Everything is threaded, and Deja News takes care of archiving. If someone is objectionable you can just filter his posts out. There are a few problems with news servers, with dropped posts and the like, and not everyone has access to a server. But there are several free servers on the WWW, like Deja and Remarq. I just don't have the time to manage this behemoth very much, so my participation is limited. I can post and read messages six times as fast on news server, and I don't have to switch back and forth waiting for screens to load if I just want to lurk for awhile. Paradise is hell.

MM

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 06:46:45 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: Paradise is Hell
Message:
Dear Mickey Moss,
I think that is why they named it Paradise, they knew it would make good ironic humor when they fucked up!
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:27:45 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: New People on the Forum
Message:
Hi Gerry -
I completely agree with you about many of the recent posts. However, what really bothers me is the posts where the poster does not use their accepted screen name or alias - I tend to discount WHATEVER that person says, whether it's something I might agree with or not. I guess the main thing that bothers me about password protection is that people might not feel free to e-mail the forum coordinator for a password. Thus we could lose many valuable posts from new contributors.

Biff (a.k.a. bftb) and I have been having a little discussion about new people (and people who have taken a hiatus and returned, as in biff's case) on the forum. I thought I'd bring some of it up to the top here for consideration. I have found it frustrating that almost every new person who posts here is challenged as if they didn't have a right to post here. As Robyn said a couple of threads below, it's NOT like a living room anymore (the way it used to be when there weren't as many people participating). Still I wish there wasn't such an atmosphere of hostility and suspicion that greeted new posters.

What I said to biff was this:
Yes, I agree that it's frustrating and exasperating to have your veracity challenged - I know one person who just about quit the forum because of it (and I'm REALLY glad she did not). I'm not exactly sure what to do about it, honestly - I mean, how can you 'prove' your existence in cyberspace? I can't imagine how I'd do it, and I know it would make me want to get out of here ASAP.

I know that if I start doubting that people on the forum are who they say they are, it makes me feel crazy. Better to take people at face value and get fooled a couple of time (as with Rob and Blackdog), I think. IMHO it's far less damaging that being suspicious of every new person on the forum.

Well, that's my opinion, for what it's worth -
Take care, Gerry
Love,
Katie

Take care, biff -
Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:45:15 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: New People on the Forum
Message:
Dear Katie,
I use to welcome new people even those using definite pseoudo names but now so many people post under strange different names and I have no clue who anyone is that I usually don't read new people for awhile. It helps me to think of this like a bar, if not a living room. I think it will give me a fairly positive way to see my place here. The group is getting to large to all fit into a living room but that is even a good thing for lots of reasons, why the site is here for starters.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 00:03:12 (EDT)
From: Goofey
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: New People on the Forum
Message:
Robyn:

You've finally outed me. I'm sorry I had to use a pseudo name, but Michael Eisner never lets me out of his sight. He's afraid the whole fantasy, together with all his stock, will be worthless without me. Besides which, I'm way more cute than that silly mouse creature. What I want to know is, why do I have to wear pants while Pluto doesn't? I mean, why are some dogs just dogs?

-Goofey

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:05:43 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Goofey
Subject: Re: New People on the Forum
Message:
Goofey,
Are you C&F? Who are you, I guess that is retorical. I've outed you!? You've lost me. I think you are just illustrating that if you don't stick to one or even 2 or 3 names that people know are all the same person, you just stop, for me anyway, any chance at open communication. If that is what you are about fine. I on the other hand am not interested in never knowing what to expect from a person.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:50:34 (EDT)
From: Gerry the esatz janitor
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: New People on the Forum
Message:
I don't quite understand what you mean by this: almost every new person who posts here is challenged as if they didn't have a right to post .

I'm trying to think where this happened and can think of only one example with Cynthia which was a case of mistaken identity.

Maybe if new people (and I think Cynthia actually might have done this) would introduce themselves as new people they would be warmly accepted. I've seen a lot more example of this type of reception than the negative ones.

Of course, when you have a bunch of disruptors, whom I can only assume are supporters of Goorroo Miragee post under umpteen names, they should expect to be dissed.

No I really don't see the challenges to new people in most cases. I think the opposite of your impression is closer to the reality. And the welcoming messages way outnumber the 'challenges' and offset the negativity, IMO.

Also, what is so difficult about emailing the admin to get a password? If they are worried about anonymity they can email from hotmail.com or other email providers.

I can see other problems with passwords, though. Inconveniences, really and the fact that it would be difficult to weed out the grifters requesting a password from the sincere people.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 09:57:10 (EDT)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: Cynthia@madriver.com
To: Gerry the esatz janitor
Subject: Re: New People on the Forum
Message:
Dear Gerry (the esatz janitor),

I did introduce myself as a new person, but because I've got a 'mental' problem, i.e., multiple personality disorder MPD, a lot of paranoia/confusion and discussion took place about my identity. I hope I cleared all that up. However, I was warmly greeted at first, and continue to post here because I need to be able to talk to people who speak the same language, vis a vis....exiting m's cult. So my skin is getting pretty thick, but I do get confused by all the different (and many times funny) aliases. Can't figure out what's going on with that. Time will tell.

I respect everyone's privacy and I leave it to the folks who've been here a while to sort out the pests, etc.

Peace to all.....Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:00:35 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry the esatz janitor
Subject: Re: New People on the Forum
Message:
Hey Gerry -
Guess I'm thinking about Denise (and also Doney). Also, biff (who isn't even a new poster) and youngold have had a problem with this lately - which is why the subject came up in the first place.

BTW, I agree that it's important that people know that they can get e-mail addresses through yahoo or hotmail or wherever.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 15:16:09 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: gerry
Subject: Re: Taking out the garbage
Message:
I agree that there is too much to wade through at the moment. I would love to see you clean up.

As for password protected posting...I am concerned that it would discourage new posters who are paranoid about being 'outed'. I think sometimes we have had postings that were very valuable from people who would not have posted out of paranoia if it had been neccessary to get a password.

Too bad though, I would love the ratio of meaningful posts to junk garbage posts go up. Maybe it would be worth it.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 16:18:16 (EDT)
From: Lee
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Re: Taking out the garbage
Message:
Dear Gerry

I totally agree. It would be really good if you cleaned up the muck that is spreading about. It gets very annoying trying to avoid some of the rubbish and puts you off looking for valid posts that are lying in between.

Re password protection - I agree with Susan. It would put off some who want to post from out of the blue. But it would be good to have less of the abusive stuff here.

Lee

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 13:22:41 (EDT)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: to errol flynn,et al
Subject: to errol flynn, et al
Message:
Errol...

Do you remember that story M told about the soldier who was looking for truth? He
came upon a ragged traveler who did not answer the question; “ do you know where the
master is?” The soldier beat the hobo with a stick for not answering. Later the soldier
was told the hobo was the master. The solder went back and apologized. The master
said” that’s O.K., when you go to market to choose a pot, you should thump it to see if is
solid with no cracks.”

So I say, thump away!

I am doing something I’ve wanted to do for a long time. I want to know what I know.

youngold

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:08:43 (EDT)
From: Waiting for Godo
Email: donm.m@virgin.net
To: youngold
Subject: Re: to errol flynn, et al
Message:
Its better than thumping yourself.!
I recived the knowlege 1982 in goldersgreen,London, Been waiting to experence it ever-since. But i have thumped myself a lot (fact every time i questioned my loyalty) seems that make me the Master, of my own destiny?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:47:08 (EDT)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: to Anth, et al
Subject: to Anth, the elder
Message:
Anth...

While in the ashram, a few of us went to see Rev. Moon. That evening, on the steps of
the ashram, a friend and I did an impromptu satire of him. We were great. Then the
gen.sect. came out and stopped us. What a memory.

In his teen-age angst and confusion, one of my sons approached an evangelical Christian
neighbor, and “asked for it”. To his credit, his common sense told him there was
something weird going on.

I used to think I could “control” my kids. Now I see that the best I can do is influence
them. They are their own persons. I’m anxious for them to be O.K.....more than O.K.
So if I can do my best to be fair and conscious and observant of life, then they will see me
and take what they want/need from me. I give them my big speeches and directives and
they take what I say and consider it.

I have never told my kids to go get K. It doesn’t seem like that’s the way it works.
If my kids said they were going to be moonies, I would tell them everything I know
about that group. ( One of my customers was an owner of the moonie restaurant in town
here. Very pleasant dude...like a 1975 premie on prozac.) I would discourage them from
joining by making my case. But ultimately it is up to them. So far in my parenting , I’ve
dealt with many situations. Weird and sad, maddening and confronting. With 4 kids, ages
10 to 21, I guess I’ll be dealing with a lot more.

I almost want to tell people, ”don’t have kids, it’s too hard. “ Or how about
“don’t get married, it’s too hard, or don’t live a life, it’s too hard.” This is the way it is.
What is with this idea that everything is supposed to easy and pleasant? I must have got it
from T.V.

The first noble truth of Buddhism is that life is fundamentally disappointment and
suffering. Ain’t that a bitch! The second is that desire for power, pleasure and continued
existence is what causes suffering. The third is that stopping desire, stops suffering. The
fourth is the eightfold path stops desire.

Anyway.. did I answer your question? rambling again.

Youngold

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:34:20 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Re: to Anth, the elder
Message:
Hi youngun,

Maybe you can sense where my question below, is leading. You said you'd discourage your kids from becoming moonies. What's the difference between becoming a 'moonie' and becoming a 'premie' youngun?

What's the difference between the Reverend and the Perfect Master?

Anth the Inquisitor.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:04:21 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: youngold
Subject: To Anth (ot)
Message:
Youngold, I am sorry for butting in on your thread here (like Fred -in thread below- I appreciate your honesty very much). But I really need Anth's e-mail address. I know he's posted it on the forum before but I cannot find it. So could Anth, or someone else, send it to me please?

Thanks,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 11:38:50 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: To Katie (ot)
Message:
Hi Katie,

you can email me at anthginn@yahoo.com

take care,

anth

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:51:04 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: To Katie (ot)
Message:
Hi Anth -
A couple of your latvian beer bash buddies told me your e-mail (I knew it, but had just forgotten), so I sent you one last night.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:17:39 (EDT)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: to katie...no problem
Message:
no ploblem, katie . I meant to post it 'to anth, et al' anyway
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:37:21 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: sydhancock@yahoo.fr
To: All
Subject: Coming out
Message:
I've been reading the forum on and off for about ten months and have posted occasionally. I went through several months when I did not read the forum because so much of it seemed so agressive and lacked any interesting or useful content - I had better things to do. Then I checked back in and saw that it had split into an 'anything goes' area.

I prefer that although it doesn't seem to be 100 percent successful. It seems to me that the 'new ex-es' group was formed because some people do not use the 'anthing goes' forum enough and think they have the right to vent at anyone and anything because 'this is a public forum'. So a closed group is needed and everyone loses the breadth of contact. So it goes.... it takes all sorts to fuck up the world...

So I started reading and lurking again. Then I posted a couple of times. I was on tv in the UK in the summer, which was scary, and I may have posted about that. Then I tried a phone number for m and posted a couple of times about that under the pseudonym 'Capn Crunch' (pinchedfroim John Draper, legendary pioneer phone phreaker :) Also about being scared. I am a nervy person, no doubt about it.

I have known Anth and his wife for many years, since long before m and k, although we did not see each other for over 20 years until meeting aagin here. Anth is someone with a lot of moral courage and I respect the way he has never tried to fit in anywhere, even here. I noticed the way he tried to communicate with people like shp, for example.

I had spiritual beliefs before I encountered m and I have them still. Just because we reject m is no reason to reject all the wisdom of the ages, some of which he has tried to hi-jack for his own purposes. One of the important pieces of information on the website is that these techniques and teachings are not new, are not solely from m.

Also, I did have some experiences from meditation and even from being near to m, even afterI had stopped being an active follower. I would like the opportunity to discuss these without being attacked.

I am still coming to terms with all this even after over 20 years away from premies. I see now that I just submerged it all for decades and it is only recently that I have started to unpack the complexities of what happened and what I believed then and now. It is not an overnight experience and, like any broken relationship, is not as simple as saying 'You let me down, you're not who you pretended to be, so I don't love you anymore'. It is always much more complicated than that. Well, broken relaltionships always have been more complicated than that for me, anyway. Broken promises, broken dreams. Yes, I'm being sentimental but that is how I , as a real live person, relate to many things. Is there a place for someone like me here?

Anyway as part of the process of facing my fears I have decided to post this and give an email address. I look in most days and may post more often if I see something that I can contribute to. I still think it is too aggressive at times. Some of you people should just try and *listen* occasionally. We don't all have your chutzpah and 'go-get bomb 'em to hell' attitude. Shit, I bet you gave heavy satsang....

Syd
Brittany
France

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 01:58:36 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Coming in
Message:
Hi Syd,
Yes I remember your posts about calling the big lord.
By the way, what was it that got you on TV that summer?
I might have missed your post although I like your
website and your commments also.

You mention the anything goes forum, sometimes it is
just halarious. I dont post there much but some of the
characters are incandesant there sometimes.
Anth is really a great read I agree.
I could talk to you about the damn breath, I think that
what ever you bring to the table about that subject
influences whatever you get from it. It is helpful to
remember that the lord himself has discouraged people
from contacting the breath except for 15 minutes in
between other techniques. A small minded approach if
there ever was one.
But, that is one of the consequences of having pride
like he so often claims he is 'proud' of having.
Jeeze, as much as I would like to diss the ever present
christianity, they have some things explained or
at least identified like no one else.
Well. let me back up on that, I listen to a lot of radio
during my day, and frankly most radio stations around
hartford conn these days are loaded with guys and dolls
that thrill at saying swear words! I kid you knot!
Even the most steady DJ I could rely on lately says
(as I am taking some of my kids home from school),
'god damn that was a good song!' and believe it or
not, he is talking about the OLD clunker by steve
winwood -Low spark of the high heeled boys-by 1999
hardly a song worth mentioning. The kids are in the car,
and I figure he is through with the swear words, but no,
he has to uncork ANOTHER 'god damn' for some other
comment about some other god forsaken song with no
relevance in 1999. Great, lets just all swear all the
'god damn'time and get it over with!

We here at the site have been all over the topic of
wether or not there is some validty to the feeling the
breath for 15 minutes a day and different folks
are of different opinions about that. I myself love
feeling the breath but where does that fit into the
guru's recommendation anyway? He answered a question
in the 90's in south africa with Eric Jackson of
Canton Conn in attendance and he said ' maybe the knowledge
isnt for you' to a question from a person who though that
feeling the breath more than 15 minutes was important!
I myself find that it the guru is wrong on this
issue and others.
I have people I live with here that are young, AND old,
the young ones are 7 and 10, THEY are very needy of
attention and love, the 22 and 18 year olds think they
are SO tough, and the 49 and 76 yr olds are SO damn
removed from thier need of love. Prem rawat, as you know,
thought HE had all he needed in his spiritual pride.
No need for MOM till she came around to HIS way of thinking.
Noneed for the older bro's till THEY came around to
his way of thinking. ooops! dang and drat!
Damn death came and stole them away! Or at least MOM!
Now, what is left? A chance to resurrect the guru trip
but what is all the obstacles about? Ex premies,
the sons of the divine (hans and Amar) are invisible
and freaked out, the wife is putting up with the
slut MOnica lewis and avoiding disputes where she can
because the damn anyerism is a BIG consideration,
but I will push forward because I have spent a lifetime
thinking my father was the Krisha and I now have the
crown (in the closet but hey! ready to go!) and
damned the satsang and full speed ahead!
As all over the map as the forum gets, at least SOMEWHERE
in this world there is a record and somewhere in this
world there are those that help provide a refuge to those
that stagger from the belief and wander crippled in here.

I thought I would just ramble on as a response to your
call for a open forum, granted vodka had a part to play.
A company near me puts out a product with a really bad
marketing name for vodka and I thought I would have some
and thin about what they SHOULD name vodka. I would
call it 'spuds' (since they make it in US Maine from
potatoes) and say 'get your self a potatoe head' as the
marketing ploy.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:22:11 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: alcohol
Message:
Dear Bill,
I had some home made honey wine a couple weeks ago, ummmmmmmm! It was so good, not at all like honey which I don't even like. The man who made it called it some long name, starting with an M but not Mead although from what I hear that is what mead is.
Anyway, the reason I am posting to you is to tell you the cutest thing he said as I was pouring my 3rd bit, 'When you drink honey wine at night you have bees in your head in the morning.', I loved it and even more that I didn't. :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:07:48 (EDT)
From: bee bee
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: honeywine
Message:
Sounds Good Robyn!
I have a freind that makes wine out of just about anything
he can. He has a big garden and even the yard has been
given over to dandelions (neighbors must
be thrilled) for D lion wine.
Luckily he does not live nearby or I would be wined up
a lot. My mother in law stays here and she drinks as
she always has, and is a great example why drinking
should be done with moderation. Some folks just turn
nasty and if she didnt have her own space and tv room,
it would never work. However the kids DO see it and
I doubt any of them are going to be alkies.
If I wore an earring, there is no way they would.
What teen is going to follow dad's fashion sense?
Or if I buy Jordan sneakers, they would HAVE to get
the Iversons instead. Maybe if I start doing drugs
it will keep them away from that? Has that worked
for our lord? If I have the mistress the kids wont do that?
Cause they see how mom likes that insult?
Prem rawat may be leading the way to smart child rearing!
Be what you dont want your kids to be.
Kids like to be lord of thier universe usually, so,
genius M does it, so the kids wont.
I have to rethink my exness!
He is showing me so much and it is just my blindness
to his brilliance that is the problem.

Where is that wine freaks phone number anyway, how about
I send you some.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 17:25:00 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: bee bee
Subject: Re: honeywine
Message:
Dear Bill,
GET A GRIP MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :) You are finally out. Stay there!!!
The TV commercial says that kids whose parents do drugs learn to do it from them. I have seen my oldest do them and then grow more away from it then me so who knows. I was glad it wasn't some huge unknown on my part though. We could talk about it all honesty.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:01:30 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Yes, Syd, I empathize
Message:
I had spiritual beliefs before I encountered m and I have them still. Just because we reject m is no reason to reject all the wisdom of the ages, some of which he has tried to hi-jack for his own purposes. One of the important pieces of information on the website is that these techniques and teachings are not new, are not solely from m.

Also, I did have some experiences from meditation and even from being near to m, even afterI had stopped being an active follower. I would like the opportunity to discuss these without being attacked.

Syd,

I hear you, bud. I really, really hear you. I feel for you, even. But, Syd, what can I tell you? You've got a problem....

Syd, there is an aggressive ex cynicism that sometimes collects here like a dark cloud waiting to rain on any little flowers of spiritual hope that blossom from time to time. I know, partly because I spend a fair bit of time seeding that cloud. Why? Because I think that all that spiritual stuff is simply wrong. I approached Maharaji in the first place after embracing the general spiritual beliefs of the early seventies, if I can call them that. You know the ones.

I now think that all that stuff is wrong and am willing to discuss it with you or most anyone here. Who knows? Maybe I'm now wrong and you can persuade me so. But the one thing you won't do is get me to not talk about it. And that, Syd, is what I think you really want -- a limited discussion of Maharaji. One that flushes his nonsense out but leaves off limits the background culture and beliefs that made him possible. Really, what a joke to hear you call Joe, of all people, 'aggressive'. That shows me that you're really talking code. It's not tone you're wary of so much as content. Sounds like you want to protect some of your long-held beliefs from challenge here. Sorry, I can't help you nor am I inclined to.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 16:15:50 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: sydhancock@yahoo.fr
To: Jim
Subject: Thank you for your concern but...
Message:
JIm,

And that, Syd, is what I think you really want -- a limited discussion of Maharaji. One that flushes his nonsense out but leaves off limits the background culture and beliefs that made him possible.

Yes, I think your analysis is partly accurate. I hadn't seen that that is what I was saying. OK, I accept that it's not likely to be possible here and do not expect it.

Really, what a joke to hear you call Joe, of all people, 'aggressive'.

I assume that 'Joe' is JW? The reason I called him agressive is very simple - the capitalised shouting in his response to my post. Shouting is not always aggression but shouting on the lines of 'you talking to me, pal? Who you calling 'uninteresting' ?' is agressive. That's no mystery. The mystery now is why this is being denied.

Sounds like you want to protect some of your long-held beliefs from challenge here. Sorry, I can't help you nor am I inclined to.

Fair comment. It's certainly blunt and honest. Unlike the caricature of the english, we actually respect those qualities greatly.

I am interested to know what adjective you would use to describe your final comment. Maybe 'aggresssive' is not quite it but 'unfriendly' and 'hostile' certainly seem to fit. Why not just admit it?

Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 20:56:34 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Re: Thank you for your concern but...
Message:
Syd,

I won't make the obvious joke about your own (inadvertent) shouting. But why do you ask if I'm 'hostile'? You know, I really don't respect spirituality no more and, well hell, what can I say? I'm sorry. And I'd be particularly sorry, I'm sure, if I ever find out I'm wrong. But 'til then, shit, what can I do? I'm not going to pussyfoot on these issues. That's silly. No, it's more a matter of drive, push, punch and let the best idea win. (I'm sure Katie Darling will agree with this atitude. :) )

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 17:58:02 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: sydhancock@yahoo.fr
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Thank you for your concern but...
Message:
Jim
I won't make the obvious joke about your own (inadvertent) shouting

You know, I really miss being able to preview the messages - I had a funny feeling that I'd fucked up the html there...

Anyway, just to close this and move on, I don't recall ever saying that I did not want to have my ideas challenged. What I was asking was is it possible to discuss things on this form or is debate of certain things stifled? The answer is clear - I can talk about anything I like but if some people don't agree then they'll let me know about it. That's fine with me.

Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 23:12:13 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Thank you for your concern but...
Message:
Going back to your original post Jim, your most telling line was this one:
'It's not tone you're wary of so much as content.'

I think you are confusing the issues. If a certain tone predominates, it becomes content. Look at your opener:
'I hear you, bud. I really, really hear you. I feel for you, even. But, Syd, what can I tell you? You've got a problem....'
Assuming this ('I feel for you, even.') is sarcasm, isn't it safe to say that sarcasm has become the content (where tone=content)?

Yours:
'.. there is an aggressive ex cynicism that sometimes collects here like a dark cloud waiting to rain on any little flowers of spiritual hope that blossom from time to time.'
More sarcasm. Dark clouds waiting to rain on any little flowers of spiritual hope? Oh, you're serious. Tell me about it.

Rather than belabor the point, I will skip to the point:
'Really, what a joke to hear you call Joe, of all people, 'aggressive'. That shows me that you're really talking code.'
It says if you (Syd) believe what you say there MUST be something wrong with you. It's abusive. If you (Jim) think Joe doesn't do what Syd says than respond instead of pulling that kind of tone.

This is not the kind of response that invites dialogue, intelligence or communication.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 16:31:17 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Not Agressive IMO!
Message:
Syd,

Jim wrote at the end of his post:-

Really, what a joke to hear you call Joe, of all people, 'aggressive'. That shows me that you're really talking code. It's not tone you're wary of so much as content. Sounds like you want to protect some of your long-held beliefs from challenge here. Sorry, I can't help you nor am I inclined to.

You replied:-

I am interested to know what adjective you would use to describe your final comment. Maybe 'aggresssive' is not quite it but 'unfriendly' and 'hostile' certainly seem to fit. Why not just admit it?

Syd - Jim is sometimes aggressive, but to me, not in this post. Nor was he unfriendly or hostile. Maybe it's my Yorkshire upbringing, but I saw nothing aggressive in his posting. His honesty in saying that he will challenge your beliefs here should be applauded and welcomed.

When we thought we were searching for truth in the early 70s, I don't think we were equiped to cut through the crap. As a result we got into the Maharaji cult. Now that we are out, we are older, and hopefully wiser. Part of this wisdom has to be allowing our beliefs to be examined by our peers.

I find Jim to be an excellent sounding board for my beliefs. If I can rationally defend my views on this forum, then I know I am on solid ground. If I can't, then what a great resource this place is for cutting through my own crap!

All the best,

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 00:56:39 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yes, Syd, I empathize
Message:
Geeze Jimbob,
Eeven thouh I likeSyd, I must say I love youtoo.
It coulsd be thje a;scjt;pjtjsaetrl; oO O I mean
a;chjonhjopop er alchole, but what awefeverr4.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:43:02 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Who Are You Talking About?
Message:
I appreciate your attempts to openly communicate, Syd, but who, exactly do you think is TOO HEAVY or TOO AGRESSIVE? Is it me? Who? Or is this the semi-monthly critism of Jim? And just what do you consider TOO AGGRESSIVE or uninteresting? I'm afraid I don't understand your ambiguous criticisms of the people who post here, but then maybe that's because it's me you are talking about. I think for every person who posts and lurks here, there is a very different interpretation and definition of those things.

Thanks for the information about Captain Crunch. I assume you know that in the USA 'Captain Crunch' is much more famous as a breakfast cereal. (It's a household name here -- a product mostly for kids put out by Quaker Oats.) And I assumed that was the reference when you posted under that name.

I don't know if you have been involved much with very democratic institutions where people are given freedom to express their opinions. It isn't nice or pretty all the time. People have strong views and you have to allow people whose views you believe are nonsense to be heard, along with those you think are brilliant. That's the way things work, and personally I prefer it that way. [I have been involved in a local public radio station, with very democratic ways of doing things and that's how it works.] There just isn't any way that this forum can be to the liking of everyone. It is by it's nature a mixed bag. But I think the freedom of expression is very important -- it is the antithesis of what it was in the cult.

If you want to just post and express yourself in a situation where you are never challenged, how are you going to learn and grow? Do you think you already know everything and don't need to be questioned? We might all prefer that (actually, I think that's what friends and family are for) but talk about 'uninteresting.'

I have not been opposed to the forum for recent exes. I also don't think it necessarily dilutes anything that happens on this forum. I think the idea is that the recent-ex forum is a kind of cocoon or incubator. People aren't expected to stay there forever. And while they are there, they aren't excluded from this forum, either.

Thanks again, Syd. I also called the Maharaji phone number and asked for Mr. Rawat. I got a secretary or something and I asked to leave a message. She didn't want to do that. After I hung up I got a call on my office phone number and no one was there. I'm sure it was the very same secretary. The thing we all have to understand is that Maharaji and his cult are much, much more paranoid than we can even imagine.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 01:00:47 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Who Are You Talking About?
Message:
Thanks again for your input JW.
You have helped me in my life and I thank you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:52:51 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Thanks Bill
Message:
Thanks, Bill, I appreciate that. You made my day.

How colorful are the leaves where you are? Beautiful I bet That's one thing I miss here in California. Actually, I want to take a ride up in the Sierra where there are a bunch of canyons with Aspen trees all gold and yellow.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:22:38 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re:
Message:
Some malcontents here claim that the colors arent
that good this year. But I love it.
Really, this place is great for 9 months of the year.
the late winter/very early spring period is barren
as you remember it.
I hear el nina is going to keep you foggy and wet.
And us out of the way of a cold winter again.
type in your address here. Your spider in the mailbox will
have to rebuild his web. I have your address but it is
buried. Drek and Jim are going to get mail also.
And JM.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:30:52 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: sydhancock@yahoo.fr
To: JW
Subject: Re: Who Are You Talking About?
Message:
JW,

First off, the personal stuff. If we ever get past this we can discuss other things if we want to.

Yes, you are one of the people who in my opinion do not listen nor stop and try to understand the messages you read. Your answer illustrates that very clearly.

Yes, I have been involved in democratic groups with very strong discussion between very strong people (e.g. housing co-ops, radical squatting action etc) so do not patronise me.

The issue is not whether debate should be allowed. The issue is that you attempt to stifle debate if you do not agree with a point of view. 'Debate' involves both parties not just one person attacking the other one.

You just vent your pain about being hurt by maharaji.

I bet you go through life saying 'no-one ever listens to me' and you're right. Do you ever stop and wonder why? Where is your vulnerability, Mr Macho? Deeply buried it seems. It's no big secret that anger and sadness are often nerely different expressions of the same hurt emotion.

Now go back and re-read this a few times before replying. You might like to read my original message as well, which you do not appear to have done yet.

Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 13:20:44 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Grow Up Syd
Message:
Sorry you don't think I listen, Syd. I guess you are entitled to your opinion, but I think others would disagree with you. Sorry you feel that way. But you might find people will have an easier time listening to you if you don't attack them, like you did in your message, above. I suggest you read it again, Syd, and maybe have a little empathy for the fact that it was an indictment of unnamed people on this forum, with zero specificity of what you are talking about. Sorry also that I pushed your buttons with my response.

But Syd, I really think you don't want to interact with other people if they disagree with you. I think you want to be agreed with, which is not always going to happen. That's part of growing up -- being tolerant of other points of view. Syd, when have I ever attacked you for something you said, except of course, your attacking post, above.

I also take exception to the way you categorize my participation here as a 'vent of pain.' Actually, Syd, you seem to be the one with the pain. I'm sorry for that. Actually, I don't find this or my memories of the cult painful because I left a very long time ago. I do sometimes see the hurt Mahararji and his cult caused to others quite painful. Abi and Susan for example. But maybe I missed something due to my inability to listen.

I did re-read your post, Syd, and, frankly, I think your expectations are not going to be fulfilled on this forum. Perhaps this really is the wrong format for what you need. I'm not sure how you would really like it different, except that everyone just accept everything you say. That's not going to happen, Syd.

One other point. Many people do feel ripped off by Maharaji and ripped off on a spiritual level, which I think is much worse than being ripped off on a financial, romantic or interpersonal level. When that happens, you have to expect that many of these people are going to be turned off to anything spiritual, are going to develop a strong quality of skepticism about sprituality, especially 'new-age' spirituality. This is called learning from your experiences. Personally, I am not as down on sprituality as some ex-premies are. But I am skeptical. For me, I see it as a healthy reaction. But I am open to disagreement about this. I really am.

You also should suspect that if you defend Maharaji or his cult, that will likely be met with a high degree of skepticism. Again, would you expect anything else on a forum of ex-premies?

So, Syd, why don't you tell me and the rest of us what it is you want to say, that you don't think gets a proper audience. I think you will find more support here than you think, but, again, your experience with democratic institutions will be useful in knowing that not everyone will agree with you on anything whatsoever.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:38:28 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: sydhancock@yahoo.fr
To: JW
Subject: Too late for that!
Message:
JW,
I've read your message several times and I think it is very restrained, considering the aggression of my previous message to you. I'm not sure why I reacted like that although it is something I have been thinking about during the day (it's evening here now).

As for growing up, it's too late for that now :) I'm happy the way I am - the years I spent trying to change what I am only confused me more. But, the way I am also includes a healthy dose of humble pie from time to time when I know I've been acting like a total dickhead. And yesterday was one of those times.

That doesn't mean that I crawl away and hide from the discussion though. I assume you would have no respect for me if I did.

Interesting that you jumped on that one throw-away paragraph at the end of a long post. Well, 'one' is not strictly true because I did mention it earlier in the message too and you picked up on that as well. And really, your response was just a teeny bit aggressive, all those capital letter shoutings etc, wasn't it? Come on now, admit it. So maybe I wasn't completely wrong in my fears that you might be one of the people who would react angrily to my post after all?

One thing that is true, as Jim points out, is that I will not find all that I want here. That's OK. I'll carry on looking in and lurking like I have for months and now that I've begun using my real name and email I may well post again from time to time. Coming out instead of hiding behind pseudonyms was the big thing I wanted to do. I was too nervous of DLM etc before.

Actually I thought you *were* Jim, maybe you are the 'Joe' he talks about? Are you both lawyers or just one or none of you?

Regards
Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 16:28:13 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Anger and Aggression
Message:
Here's the thing Syd. Anger and agression are normal, human responses. They are quite healthy at times. In Maharaji's cult, and I am afraid in some other spiritual belief systems, anger and agression as sometimes seen as signs of the lack of spiritual advancement, therefore sometimes, people repress those feelings, feel like they aren't supposed to be having them, or think they are failures because they do. I recall as a premie that one wasn't supposed to be angry because one was supposed to be happy. I think that it is very destructive to encourage people to repress their feelings and make them be at war with themselves.

So, maybe I responed to your agressive post with some agression of my own. How do you expect people to respond? Would you rather be ignored? I guess that's what you would call 'passive agressive.' I hate that. It makes me want to be agresssive when people are passive agressive.:)

You mean you expected an angy response to your post? Is that why you did it?

Which of your paragraphs was 'throw-away?' I'm not sure I understand.

I appreciate your post, syd. Hope you are feeling better. Also, I think it's fine to use your name. I have always thought that we have nothing to fear from DLM/Elan Vital, or any of those people. I have posted under my initials, and used my names lots, posted my email, etc., and I never even gotten one negative email from anyone. They even let me post a ridiculously meaningless quote from TS Elliott on the Enjoyinglife website. I was insulted. I thought I was a more notorious ex-premie than I apparently am.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 17:22:36 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: sydhancock@yahoo.fr
To: JW
Subject: Re: Anger and Aggression
Message:
I agree, anger can be very healthy. It's certainly healthier than bottling things up. I don't subscribe to the idea that anger is 'unspiritual' blah blah. I often get angry. It's part of me. And I do feel that I should make an effort to clear up the mess if I have been unfairly or unreasonably angry and that is what I as trying to do yesterday. (That is not repeat not a coded sarcastic comment on you. I know it could look that way).

I get the feeling you understood that. And I do feel much better than I did before I posted here a few days ago although I think that is mainly because I have begun to face the fears that I talked about in the first post. People here being angry was only one small part of that. And most of the messages I've received have been encouraging.

I didn't intentionally write about 'giving heavy satsang' etc so as to invite an angry response but it's quite reasonable to think that that may have been an unconscious motivation. In fact I think it probably was, kind of to smoke it out so I would know who to be cautious of. Not subtle but then I was never very smart at handling situations.

I still have the other fears about DLM (or whatever they call themselves these days) or m himself being able to harm me but all I can do is press on now. In reality I can't imagine that they are the least bit interested so I'll have to try and hang on to that rational thought. Nearly 30 years ago when I was taking acid I began to believe that dark forces would get me if I took a particular amulet off (it was actually a crucifix on a bit of cotton round my neck). After a few weeks of mounting anxiety I just took it off anyway. And, as far as I know, they didn't get me :-) So...

Regards
Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:50:49 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Calling Maharaji
Message:
Hi J.W.,

When you spoke to the secretary did she say why she wouldn't give a message to Miraji?

I thought that was part of the secretaries job.

Fred

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:55:11 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Re: Calling Maharaji
Message:
I don't know if she was a secretary or not. It was a woman with a British accent. She wanted to know what the message was in reference to, and I asked for voicemail. She wouldn't give me voicemail and I knew if I left the message I had wanted to with her, it would have ended up in the trash, which is what I said. Then there was silence, so I hung up. Then I got the call back. I'm sure she just dialed 'star69' and got me once again. She was too chickenshit to say anything, she just breathed and then hung up. I tell you, those people are nuts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:23:19 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: djrayovac@aol.com
To: syd
Subject: Re: Coming out
Message:
Very true about the numbers- there has got to be a huge audience out there that doesn't post much. Think of the numbers of people who have left M versus the numbers who stay. It was important to us all at one time, surely many or most of these thousands of people would have an interest in connecting.

Also, many are interested in meditation and continue pursuit of related goals and interests without the added weight of Rawatt taxing their strength. When I posted about meditation (having continued to meditate and finally, ten years later giving it up for 5 years to clear Rawatt out) there were some strong affirmative responses. Meditation is clearly an interest for me and many others here, but we appear less vocal or assertive in threading it.

That 'heavy satsang' line is funny, Syd.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:16:44 (EDT)
From: mistake
Email: delete this
To: syd
Subject: delete this blank post (NT)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 11:12:48 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: syd
Subject: Re: Coming out
Message:
Dear Syd -
Although your e-mail address is different, I got the idea from your post that you are the same Syd who posted a while back - hope that's right (we had a few conversations about the Grateful Dead.) Anyway, I am glad to see you here, and I appreciated what you had to say about the forum. The more I read what people have to say here, the more I'm convinced that leaving Maharaji is like getting a divorce, so I thought your 'love relationship' analogy was quite apt.

Take care,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:42:12 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: sydhancock@yahoo.fr
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Coming out
Message:
Katie, you're right, that was me. Can't remember what email address I was using then but whatever, it's now defunct. I set this one up today specifically for use here.

And I'm still a Deadhead - now there is something *really* worth believing in :-)

'Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world...'

Thanks for the welcome
Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:12:12 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Re: Coming out
Message:
dear Syd -
Glad it's the same you, since I just sent you an e-mail. Was just listening to 'Wake of the Flood' a few nights ago - guess my favorite part is the saxophone solo in 'Let it Grow'. Now, that's transcendent!

Take care -
Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:59:22 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: syd
Subject: Re: Coming out and some communication proposals
Message:
Dear Syd,

Welcome! I also have a hard time with the “heavy satsang” vibe of the Forum, and did a long post about it, with some suggestions about ways of communicating with each other to make things safer. I am copying some of that post below, for your delight. I also want to agree with you that the relationship with MJ and the whole group is very complex, like life, and that unravelling it isn’t as simple as flouncing away in disgust. And for me, leaving (15 years ago) had nothing to do with rejecting my spiritual experiences, which continue now, although in a more embodied form.

Here are my suggestions:
“I came back to the ex-premie forum recently after being away for a few years, and found that
a lot of the same stuff that I didn't like before was still going on, although there was also some great stuff. A week
ago I got totally turned off by yet another sarcastic and P.A. (I love this useful phrase passive-aggressive) response
to one of my posts, and haven’t felt like returning. I signed on this evening to lurk a bit and was pleased to see your
posts.

It seems to me that being an ex-premie means absolutely nothing about who I am, or how I am, or what I’m doing
with my life. Yet when I come to this Forum I feel a bit limited in my self-expression because of the potential for a
barrage of put-down if I don’t conform to the main, full-time posters’ views and am not appropriately atheist,
cynical (from the Greek word, meaning a dog who always chases his tail), anti-anything-spiritual, and definitely
non-new-age omigodno! Let’s keep the old age! It feels to me a bit like the W.P.C. ashram in England in the early
70’s felt to me, come to think of it! A bunch of angry people, not treating each other very lovingly or respectfully.

I noted your comments about developing a thick skin, Katie. The thing for me is that I have so many opportunities
to develop this in my daily life (I work with people in various kinds of therapeutic situations). Who needs an AFGO
(Another Fucking Growth Opportunity)? So what am I trying to say?

What I want from this Forum is love, respect and support. I feel that under all our bravado, most of us are probably
here because some part of us is still hurting or in some way feeling limited by our cult experience with M. In the
groups I and my colleagues work with, there are a few basic agreements around communication that make it safe
for everyone to express themselves and be vulnerable and be different from the norm, or from the worldview of the
more dominant members. In any community, some people are more articulate, clever or in other ways powerful
than others. If this power is used unkindly or as a put-down it can create minor woundings that are very similar to
the way we were wounded by someone clever and powerful (although not, perhaps very articulate, but with some
fast-talking hench-men) who used his power in an inappropriate way with us. I’m not imagining or proposing that
this Forum should operate with any particular agreements––it’ll never fly––however, here are some principles that
might work really well, in case anyone is moved to incorporate them, in spirit if not in letter:

1) Love, respect and honesty: This Forum is an opportunity for us to heal ourselves and each other through love,
respect and honesty. Love means love. Respect means treating everyone with kindness and care, even if I don’t
agree with them. Honesty means coming clean about MY motivations, delusions etc., NOT ABOUT YOURS.

2) No attacks. This includes name-calling and all the rest. (Maybe there are people who’ve been here so long that
they just love to communicate together in this way. Perhaps you could just e-mail each other angrily, or have your
own threads? I agree with other posters that it might be a little intimidating and off-putting for new exes visiting the
site looking for support). It’s possible that we are just passing on to each other the kind of energy we received from
M and perhaps from other premies or from the organization. Most child-abusers were abused as children. Let’s have
the buck stop here, and deal with our anger, not dump it on each other–– perhaps by some good therapy (as you
both said, Cynthia and Katie) or perhaps by revving it up into power and using it for constructive purposes. (BTW, if
bringing down the cult is your constructive thing, channel your energy there! I've got lots of outlets in my life, but
as far as my “ex-premie life“ is concerned, I prefer to channel my energy into supporting people who are going
through the very difficult transition into ex-dom).

3) How about we have a discussion that INTEGRATES viewpoints rather than ramming them endlessly against
each other. My suggestion is that we try being willing to include each other’s beliefs as interesting alternate
viewpoints rather than belligerently polarizing. This has been one of the biggest things I've found in my own life
journey: Everything is true, from a particular viewpoint (even what I'm saying now). There’s a way I've found I can
disagree that carries a feeling of respect and allowance, and maybe even allows the other person’s viewpoint to
penetrate and somewhat influence me (I’ll certainly be more open if it’s lovingly expressed). As I describe in my
Journey entry, I worked for many years as a therapist, specializing in cult-exit issues among other things. I started
my career with premies and initiators, at a time when leaving was much more unusual than now. The way I was
able to really help people wake up and not only move on and out, but also start to reclaim their lost parts and
resolve some of the rage, grief, terror, guilt, remorse, shame, confusion, etc. was by NOT OPPOSING their
experience, (which would have been opposing my own past self, after all!) even when it was mind-control
devotional rambling, but instead creating a space in which that experience could get heard and mediated with an
energy of love and acceptance. Many of us did have profound experiences, along with all the BS and
mind-control and manipulation, however much we may feel the need to deny it in order to have everything under
control and feel sane now. Denying those experiences creates a sort of fixated mass of undigested psychic
material, from my observation. What has worked best for me, and for many people I worked with, including several
good buddies who are exes (and don’t like the belligerence of this Forum) is to validate the deep inner place that
got touched somewhere in our premie journey, and find a way to keep that alive in a new form that doesn't depend
on M and the cult. Many of us were deeply idealistic, gave our hearts, yearned for enlightenment, stretched
beyond comfort for what we believed to be a higher truth, etc. We’re pissed about this. Many of us have closed
down that part of ourselves in protection. One way to keep it alive is to cultivate a lot of kindness and compassion.
There are lots of ways to keep this part evolving, of course.

So I’m not saying we shouldn’t disagree with each other. I’m saying take a deep breath (or whatever works) and
instead of going with the knee-jerk response of arguing, arguing, arguing (remember that Monty Python sketch “This
is not an argument! I’m paying for an argument...”) try honoring the other person and responding with your
experience, rather than your opinion about them or their experience. This may not seem like much, but it’s one of
those communication devices that makes all the difference in keeping things safe and avoiding the intimidation
factor. “

That’s it. I hope these ideas can make things a little safer. Safety is important. Let’s not play macho.

Syd, Thanks for coming out!

Love Katie Darling (another Katie from the other Katie)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:05:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Come on, Katie. Where's the knife?
Message:
Katie,

If everything just gets 'integrated all the time, what do you do with the really unworthy ideas? When and where can you call them such and cut them loose never to be seen again?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:04:08 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Come on, Katie. Where's the knife?
Message:
Dear Jim

Well, in person, I guess what I would do with the really unworthy ideas would be to disagree with them, but make a separation between the ideas and the person, so that there’s no violence on any level. Obviously I'm invoking a very broad meaning of violence. It seems harder when we’re all just TYPING at each other. Know what I mean?

Integration doesn't mean watering down, in the way I’m meaning it. It’s not like taking black and white and making grey, but a dynamic black/white dance like the yin-yang sign.

Maybe this is more of an answer than your question wanted, but to take this whole thing further: there are definitely ideas and people I want to cut loose and never see again. I’ve decided, for myself, that I want to make the effort to love (things, people, ideas) unconditionally AT THE RIGHT DISTANCE. In other words, if I’m constantly having a hard time relating to you with love, I’m going to get further away from you, or ask you to move out of my living room. BTW, unconditionally loving someone doesn't mean I don’t reject and disapprove of their behavior if it hurts me or others, and I might be very active about that. But there’s a place I try to stay that keeps an open heart towards them-separate-from-their-stuff. This may seem like one small step, but has seemed like a giant leap for mankind in my life.
Wanna talk on the phone sometime, Jim? E-mail me and I’ll e-mail you my number.

Love Katie Darling

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 16:51:44 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Katie & Katie
Message:
Dear Katie,

Very nice to hear from you. I enjoyed and agreed with a lot of your post. I'm going to read your Journey again and the other Katies. I still get you two mixed up. ie which one is a therapist, which one is a geologist, which one was it on the website photo with her husband?

Love,

Jumbled Brains!

Fred

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:23:35 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Fred
Subject: Re: Katie & Katie
Message:
Dear Fred

I don’t know whose post you enjoyed and agreed with (haven’t been following this whole thread). I posted the stuff about safe communication, I'm Katie Darling, and I'm a therapist (although not doing it any more––teaching trainings instead) and have a website called www.motherwave.com which may have a photo of me with my husband and others, I'm not sure.

My surname used to be Masters, and was Baier before that. (Third and final marriage to Mr. Darling!).

Love Katie, or maybe I should call myself Kathryn to avoid confusion

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 18:46:28 (EDT)
From: Katie (Mischa)
Email: None
To: Fred
Subject: Re: Katie & Katie
Message:
Hi Fred -
I am Katie (Mischa) Haering - I post as Katie, and am a soil scientist (close to a geologist, but different). The 'other' Katie is Katie Darling posts as 'kmdarling', and is a therapist. The website photo was of me. BTW, Mischa was my premie (and hippie) name, so I use part of it in my e-mail address.

I hope these multiple Katie's don't confuse people too much - sheesh!

Take care,
Katie (not the other Katie :)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 09:25:22 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Katie (Mischa)
Subject: Re: Katie & Katie
Message:
Hi Katie,

This is the other Katie, now reverting to Kathryn.

I am now Kathryn Darling on this website.

Love Kathryn

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 12:28:03 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Re: Katie & Katie
Message:
Hi Katie/Kathryn -
Thanks for doing that - I appreciate it, although I hate to take your name. (By the way, my given name is Kathryn, too. I hope your middle name isn't Claire - mine is!)

Love,
Katie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:05:18 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Re: Coming out
Message:
Dear Syd,
God, Syd this was a wonderful post, IMHO. I love the way you relate breaking from M to breaking from any love relationship. I too see things as much more complicated than, they just let me down. Right now I am in the midst of some very intese stuff that has nothing to do with m but it is VERY SCARY and in another way it feels really really good to be this close to the edge of it. I wrote to a friend that it feels like I have been walking into a dark tunnel for years. In just a bit and then backing out. In a bit farther next time yet backing out again. Not going to the tunnel at all for awhile, ect until now, I am in the depths of it, the darkness but I fell like the next time I see the light it will be when I am getting out the other side. This might sound like a lot of fluff to some who read it and see me as just a happy go lucky soul and part of me is that. There is another part though that goes very deep and faces all kinds of stuff. I have been driven to do this, it isn't really even a conscience choice. Since I found this place, the forum, it has helped me immensely, more in the beginning but even now with all the horror of Jadego seems to have been a big part of my tunnel.
Also dear, I received the book. Thank you. I have been waiting to email until I've had time to look at it but a friend was here the other day and while I was making the meal she was looking at, and enjoying it very much. Of course I did find you in it right off and glace through but I want to give it some time before I write about it.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:48:25 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Coming out
Message:
Robyn,
Whatever it is that is happening in your life, good luck. If you want to email me at the address you already have, go ahead. It is still functioning but I intend to keep it private.

Glad the book arrived. I was not completely happy with the way I was presented in the book. It seems like it was edited very hastily and a lot of the words are not what actual quotes although the meaning is fairly accurate. But, without false modesty I hope, I think the book is worth reading because there are many very interesting people in it.

Take care and do email me
Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:09:48 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Your Book
Message:
My apologies if I'm intruding, but I am curious about the book you're talking about. What is it, if you don't mind sharing?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:27:40 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: sydhancock@yahoo.fr
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: Your Book
Message:
The book is called 'Far Out: the Dawn of the New Age in Britain' (or something similar - my copy is packed away following a house move) and is taken from a tv series of the same name, broadcast in the UK last july.

One sectionof the tv series featured the Houston do in '73 and I was interviewed for it, as someone who was there. I sent a copy to Robyn. The book was on sale at amazon.com (or maybe amazon.co.uk) last year and may still be available. It is quite expensive but there are some fascinating stories in it. If you are in the UK email me and I can get you a copy art a substantial discount if you wish.

Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:37:43 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Re: Your Book
Message:
Dear Syd:
Thanks for replying. I remember some posts about that show this summer, but I live in the U.S., and I don't think it was aired here. I'll check out Amazon here and see if I can track one down. I was at Millennium also (Soul Rush too, which my friends and I dubbed 'Mind Rush,' given the circumstances). I don't think I've ever eaten another peanut butter and apple butter sandwich since. :-)))

I get BBC on the Dish; do you think they'd run that show?
Thanks again

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:48:46 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: Your Book
Message:
> I get BBC on the Dish; do you think they'd run that show?

No, very unlikely as it was on Channel 4 which is a completely different company.
Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 21:19:15 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Thanks (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 08:27:21 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Bonjour Syd
Message:
Hi Syd,

good to see you back.

You've got a lot to answer for mate. You were one of the first folk to give Dot and me satsang, back in 73.

Forum Four is an interesting place, as was Forum 3. I look on it like a bar run by a couple of ex-premies. All sorts of people drift in and out. Some are definately a bit crazy, and some have mental problems- but what the hell- it's the same in a real bar too.

Things seem to be changing too. One is how the Forum has sprouted two children.

You mentioned Sir Dave's Anything Goes Forum. I pop over there and lurk occasionally. When it started it took a lot of crazy stuff off the official forum, which was a very positive thing. Idiots like Catweazle can spout their self-righteous crap over there until their heart's content.

Pointless abuse is definitely no longer welcome, or tolerated over here. Particularly if it comes from premies and is aimed at ex-premies.

As well as the AG (Anything Goes) forum, Katie has started a forum for recent ex-premies, who feel intimidated by some of the insensitive stuff that gets posted here.

Sometimes people simply post stuff without any awareness of the consequences. This is very imature behaviour. It's much more positive to be sensitive to our fellow human beings. Hiding behind a false ID, and simply being negative and disruptive is quite pathetic.

The forum has had its moments though Syd. It's been the place where Jagdeo's paedophilic activities, carried out while a cult official, have been exposed.

It's been the place where it was reported that Maharaji was informed of Jagdeo's disgusting crimes against children and apparently did nothing about it, allowing him to continue travelling the world continuing his evil habits.

It's been the place where Elan Vital's attempt to distance itself from it's murky past as Divine Light Mission has been exposed. (I was told by a journalist that they threatened the Sunday Express with legal action if they claimed that Elan Vital was connected to Divine Light Mission).

I remember sitting on the cliff in Cornwall on Saturday afternoon, posting the information about DLM trying to disassociate itself from Elan Vital, and threatening legal action. Within 15 minutes, JHB posted that he had a letter from Elan Vital, asking him to change his standing order from Divine Light Mission, and JW posted from the States, with a couple of legal documents incorporating the name change.

The forum is changing, but I think, overall, it's moving in the right direction, which I believe is to support people leaving the cult, and give information to people who want to find out.

The best stuff is preserved at the House of Drek website.

Unlike Elan Vital, we're expanding.

Take care Syd, talk soon,

Anth the Convert.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:05:23 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Bonjour Syd
Message:
Ooh, you meanie, don't remind me. You really know how to kick a man when he's down, don't you :-)

Good analogy about the bar. Anyway, after making the leap and posting and only getting jumped on by one (predictable) person, I feel a lot less precious about it all.

Years ago when I was a fiesrce young anarchist squatter (look at me now, ha ha) I used to go to a pub in clapham, on acre lane, where there was late night jaz playing and people smoking dope and suggestive dancing and stuff like that - have I found the right place here? Not that I do anything like that now of course, too old! 'Gimme five, I'm still alive, ain't no luck - I learned to duck!'

May be in London again in a few weeks' time, I'll let you know.

A plus tard
Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:14:57 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Bonjour Syd
Message:
Dear Anth,
Well, stopping into AG and here have really given some depth to this Sunday morning. I am struck by your likening of fourm4 to a bar. When I first came here it felt like all being together in someone's home, even mine, then some things happened to me that freaked me out. I felt like I'd made some bad choices in who I'd let into my home. I have done this in my real life as well, interestingly enough. I have made working on myself a major priority for the last 6 years and although I have seen significant changes in my physical life as far as people I let in and lots of other issues, I found myself reliving that physical past here. I don't know if you understand this but I am seeing that changing my actions wasn't as much of a change as being confronted here by some of my less than desirable thoughts, reactions ect act out after I think I have changed. I can see it stark and clear here and it has helped me to make that change more deeply.
I feel whipped now, think I'll have a Ricola. :)
Love,
Robyn the Transforming
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:20:32 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Bonjour Syd 2
Message:
Geez! Maybe I'd better skip the Ricola!
I was saying I use to feel like these people were in my living room. Since I couldn't think of it as my living room anymore I was at a loss as to how to relate to it. Your description of it being like a bar is great. Different groups, some intermingling, sometimes like a big group all in synch with each other, sometimes a not happening place and always a public place were you have to keep your wits about you to some degree.
Love ya,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:45:02 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Bonjour Syd 2
Message:
Hi Robyn, Syd, Anth, Katies, and all

Just stopped by the bar for a quick drink. I haven't had much time for forum reading let alone posting of late, and that's not likely to change. Just wanted to say I'm glad you're still here. Robyn, I think you're amazing. Hope the light at the end of the tunnel comes up soon. I love both the happy-go-lucky Robyn and the one with so much depth. Agree with a post from Katie a while back that even the happy-go-lucky one is pretty deep. Anth, thanks for the clarity and honesty. And the plain guts. Hope I'll make it to that Latvian bar sometime, would love to meet you. Katies, you're both a joy. Thank you.

Syd, welcome. I admire your courage. You probably aren't so different to most of us. I too still have some spiritual leanings, though I try to find a place for them that doesn't split me off from 'this world', or from bits of myself. There's actually a fair bit of discussion of this sort of thing on the forum, over time. As to the 'heavies', I like JW don't know exactly who you mean, but I do think a bit of kindness and respect goes a long way. Still, sometimes those who don't hold these values in quite the way I do have been the ones who have helped me see clearly through the concepts MJ left in my brain. I know you've heard it all before. Best wishes for working through the residual stuff: sounds like you're doing it. It's amazing that those concept can stick around so long, and so insidiously. I've met quite a few people, here and elsewhere, who have had to come back and look at their involvement years later. Takes courage. But the benefits, in terms of self-understanding, are great.

Love

Diz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:50:27 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Diz
Subject: Re: Bonjour Syd 2
Message:
Dear Diz,
Thanks for your kind words. They were really nice to read just now. You sound well, I am glad. Take good care.
Let me buy you one. :)
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 00:19:15 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: Bonjour Syd 2
Message:
Hey Robyn

I might just take you up on that, sometime.

Thanks, and take care,

Diz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 20:17:40 (EDT)
From: syd
Email: sydhancock@yahoo.fr
To: Diz
Subject: Re: Bonjour Syd 2
Message:
Diz,

Thanks. Not sure myself who I was referring to since I didn't notice names. Anyway I just needed to spout off a bit about it. I feel safer now. Sorry if you or anyone else felt implicitly attacked. Wounded animals etc...

You're right about how insidious it is. Although I didn't practice or have any involvement with premies for 20 years or so, it is only since thinking about it all again after discovering the forum last december that I realised that somewhere inside I had been believing in m all that time, In fact I think that part of me still does - it's very hard to let go of that trust and that fear. That's why I haven't written a journey yet as I know that I am still coming out of the woods and am not completely cleared yet. I am still talking myself out of it, bit by bit.

Regards
Syd

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 00:16:42 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: syd
Subject: Re: Bonjour Syd 2
Message:
Hi Syd

Nah, I didn't feel attacked. Not here enough to offer a decent shot to anyone. Thanks for the thought, though.

If my experience is anything to go by, it'll take a while for you to work through the hidden beliefs, and see what you want to toss and what you want to keep. Won't necessarily be the same tally as anyone else here. But this is a good place to get a handle on the range of arguments which can be advanced for and against what MJ taught us, explicitly and implicitly. I feel MUCH clearer now than when I found this forum, just over a year ago. Although I don't by any means agree with what every ex-premie poster writes, almost all of what I've read has helped me sort out my own position. Took a bit of doing, a fair amount of upheaval, particularly in the early days. What I think is great, though, is that here the taboos which bound us as premies don't apply. So you can see into the shadow side of MJ's world, and make an informed decision about where you stand.

Not that there mayn't be taboos here, too. Still, as has often been pointed out, if that's the case, we only have ourselves to blame. Because the forum is what we make it, there's no rules saying that certain positions can't be taken.

Still, it can take courage to run a view which is likely to get bashed over the head. I for one don't necessarily have that courage at times. We have been wounded, and part of recovery is learning to protect ourselves from attack. I would see that as one reason why the 'new ex' forum may have its place. You might want to talk to Katie (Mischa) about accessing that.

Take care, Syd

Diz

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:01:37 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Kinda Like The Star Wars Bar ^..^ (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index