Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 9
From: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 To: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 Page: 4 Of: 5


Jerry -:- What does 'work' mean? -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 21:36:24 (EDT)
__ Fred -:- Re: What does 'work' mean? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:01:01 (EDT)
__ Mickey Moss -:- Re: What does 'work' mean? -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:25:55 (EDT)
__ noyfb -:- Re: What does 'work' mean? -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 22:50:01 (EDT)
__ __ JW -:- Question -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 18:08:58 (EDT)
__ __ Fred -:- Re: What does 'work' mean? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:19:07 (EDT)
__ __ gfy -:- Re: What does 'noyfb' mean? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:36:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ wybmadiity -:- Re: What does 'noyfb' mean? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 11:41:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- OT entry -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:05:48 (EDT)
__ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: What does 'work' mean? -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:34:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mendl Mosskovitch -:- Re: What does 'work' mean? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 06:05:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mimi Mosskovitch -:- Re: Thank you Mickey Moss...For EVERYTHING you've done! -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:04:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- The road not traveled. -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 09:46:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mendl Mosskovitch -:- Re: The road who would want to travel? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:38:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: The road who would want to travel? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:17:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mendl Mosskovitch -:- Re: The road who would want to travel? -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 08:56:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Curly -:- Re: What does 'work' mean? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:23:30 (EDT)

Enough -:- Maharaji's Report Card -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 19:04:36 (EDT)
__ Professor Staff -:- Re: Maharaji's Report Card -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 18:17:41 (EDT)
__ Didn't you know??? -:- Re: Maharaji's Report Card -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 11:05:55 (EDT)
__ not enough -:- Premies Report Card -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 02:33:19 (EDT)
__ Poifek Mehsteh -:- Re: Maharaji's Report Card -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 21:01:34 (EDT)

Parmesh Bhavsar -:- Message from premi -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 15:54:47 (EDT)
__ Maharaji -:- Re: Message from premi -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 16:29:12 (EDT)
__ __ Maharaji ji -:- Re: Message from premi -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:25:38 (EDT)
__ __ Satpal Maharaj -:- Re: Message from premi -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:19:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mata Ji -:- Re: Message from premi -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:26:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Fred -:- Re: Message from premi -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:32:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Cynthia (Mata Ji) -:- Re: Message from premi -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 08:57:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Captain Paranoia -:- Re: Message from premi -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 11:53:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The above message was not from me -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:17:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Captain Paranoia -:- Nobody's saying it was -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:40:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Captain Paranoia -:- Maybe you should try some Prozac -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:43:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Message from premi -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 09:55:20 (EDT)

young old -:- To Anth -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 13:51:56 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- What if... -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:26:45 (EDT)
__ Errol Flynn -:- Re: To Anth -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 04:48:56 (EDT)
__ __ Blackdog -:- friendly advice -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:11:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Napoleon Solo -:- Re: friendly advice -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 07:11:15 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Errols Error. -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:32:24 (EDT)
__ VO -:- Standard xp question #37 -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:39:51 (EDT)
__ __ Luke Skywalker -:- Re: Standard xp question #37 -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 05:17:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ VO -:- Re: Standard xp question #37 -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:01:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg Chappell -:- Re: Standard xp question #37 -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 09:58:11 (EDT)

Cynthia -:- Please...Everyone Settle Down -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:00:35 (EDT)
__ Katie -:- Thanks, Cynthia! -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:48:25 (EDT)
__ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: Thanks, Katie! -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 14:53:57 (EDT)

youngold -:- hats off -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:32:12 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Do you believe in 'Perfect Masters'? -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 07:07:08 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Re: hats off -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:32:38 (EDT)
__ __ youngold -:- Re: hats off -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:59:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: hats off -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:17:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ youngold -:- Re: hats off -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:25:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: hats back on -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:57:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: hats off -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:38:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ youngold -:- Re: hats off -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 13:05:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Fred -:- Re: hats off -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:46:18 (EDT)

rodney king -:- such a beating -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:15:48 (EDT)

who knows -:- confusion-multiple personality -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:18:23 (EDT)
__ Runamok -:- Re: confusion-multiple personality -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:25:08 (EDT)
__ __ Sir Dave (retired) -:- My multiple personality disorder -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 22:09:39 (EDT)
__ JW -:- I Don't -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:11:49 (EDT)
__ __ who knows -:- okay but... -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:22:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Well Because -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:50:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ who knows -:- Re: Well Because -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:51:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Yeah, and She Posted that as Cynthia (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:09:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ who knows -:- Re: Well Because -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:01:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: okay but nothing... -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:59:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ No one you know -:- Sorry Joey-who knows has a valid point -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:48:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Sorry Joey-who knows has a valid point -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:14:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ No one you know -:- Pick your fights elsewhere -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:40:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Pick your fights elsewhere -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:21:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Sorry Joey-who knows has a valid point -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:06:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ No one you know -:- Re: Sorry Joey-who knows has a valid point -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:20:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Sorry Joey-who knows has a valid point -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:30:36 (EDT)

Joey -:- Here come the hoaxters!!(OT) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:31:23 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Re:Hoaxters w/ better html, hopefully -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:37:19 (EDT)
__ __ On Topic -:- Re: Re:Hoaxters w/ better html, hopefully -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:06:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Re: oooh! Am I being threatened? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:35:39 (EDT)

Way -:- Dear Blackdog, -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 11:05:22 (EDT)
__ Blackdog -:- Re: Dear Blackdog, -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:09:07 (EDT)
__ Mili -:- Re: Dear Blackdog, -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:41:33 (EDT)
__ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Dear Blackdog, -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 20:52:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mendl Mosskovitch -:- Re: Dear Mickey Moss -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 16:51:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Dear Mickey Moss -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 23:01:28 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Mili is as thick as ever (big, BIG yawn) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:29:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Re: Mili is as thick as ever (big, BIG yawn) -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 00:39:14 (EDT)
__ __ Way -:- To Mili -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:09:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: To Mili -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 21:14:54 (EDT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Way - I'm the agnostic premie -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:20:52 (EDT)
__ __ JHB -:- Correction -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 05:28:19 (EDT)
__ __ Fred -:- Re: Way - I'm the agnostic premie -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:54:32 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Knowledge is a belief system. -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 07:35:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Anth - don't mistake the menu for the meal! -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:51:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Why don't you answer the question dog? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:39:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Why don't you answer the question dog? -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:40:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Why... -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:15:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Where does Maharaji fit in? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 02:48:54 (EDT)
__ __ JW -:- So, Are you a Premaybe?' -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:39:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Way -:- To Deputy Dog -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:22:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: To Deputy Dog -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:57:23 (EDT)
__ URL -:- Re: Dear Blackdog, -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:23:20 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- The Essential Truth. -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 12:43:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Timeless -:- Re: The Essential Truth. -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 18:02:10 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Priceless! -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:23:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- You are a contrarian to the nth degree Nigel -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:50:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Priceless! -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:50:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Priceless! -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:52:41 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Bullshit justifications -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:00:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: Bullshit justifications -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:17:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Bullshit justifications -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:32:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Yes, I am confused -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:08:07 (EDT)
__ __ JW -:- The Gospel According to URL -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:04:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Roger ** best ** ?? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:39:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- You know it baby! -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:26:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- No 'Savant', Just 'Idiot' -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:08:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Ooohh you really know how to hurt -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:18:04 (EDT)
__ __ Lee -:- Re: Dear URL -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:50:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: Dear URL -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:30:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- To JW and URL -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:56:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: To JW and URL -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:27:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: To JW and URL -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:42:43 (EDT)


Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 21:36:24 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What does 'work' mean?
Message:
There's a lot of talk about Knowledge 'working'. What does that mean? Jim raised this question not too long ago, but I don't recall there being any takers. So to those for whom Knowledge 'works', premies and exes alike, what do you mean by that?
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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:01:01 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: What does 'work' mean?
Message:
Good Question - I'm looking forward to hearing some answers.

Fred

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:25:55 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: What does 'work' mean?
Message:
Jerry:

'Work' is one of the two great curses of mankind, the other being 'poverty.'

MM

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 22:50:01 (EDT)
From: noyfb
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: What does 'work' mean?
Message:
You're constipated, you take a laxative, later you take a dump: the laxative is 'working'

You're impotent, you take Viagra, later you get a woody: the Viagra is 'working'

You're unhappy and confused, you get Knowledge, later you are happy and clear: the Knowledge is 'working'

Duhhh....

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 18:08:58 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: noyfb
Subject: Question
Message:
So, duhhh, whenever you are 'happy and clear,' knowledge is 'working.' Therefore, whenever you are unhappy, and/or unclear, knowledge is failing or 'not working?'

What percentage of the time does knowledge 'work' and what percentage of the time does it 'fail?' Or does that vary from person to person, just like the amount of 'happiness' and 'clarity' naturally varies in the general population?

Also, I take it that people who are basically happy aren't in need of knowledge, because then you couldn't tell whether knowledge was working or not, right, because you were already happy before you got it?

Based on my own experience, this is what REALLY happens. Just like any religion or belief system, it can feel good to believe that you are happy, saved, or been given something special. When life sucks, it is somewhat comforting to believe that what is going on externally isn't real, important, or the only thing going on, and that you have something 'real' to rely on. There are certain feelings of comfort, maybe even happiness that come from a belief system, which is what Maharaji actually delievers, although that isn't how it is advertised.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:19:07 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: noyfb
Subject: Re: What does 'work' mean?
Message:
I LIKE IT! In fact I'm going to print it out and post it on my fridge just to remind me then perhaps i won't have to go see so many damn vidoes!

Fred

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:36:29 (EDT)
From: gfy
Email: None
To: noyfb
Subject: Re: What does 'noyfb' mean?
Message:
Hey noyfb,

Is that, n-o-y-f-b, as in 'none of your fucking business'?
Pleased to meet you.
I'm gfy,
As in ...go fuck yourself.
Hi ho!

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 11:41:55 (EDT)
From: wybmadiity
Email: None
To: gfy
Subject: Re: What does 'noyfb' mean?
Message:
hole in one
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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 14:05:48 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: wybmadiity
Subject: OT entry
Message:
This is offtopic, but the Bible was mistranslated. It was supposed to be work one day and relax the rest.
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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:34:29 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: noyfb
Subject: Re: What does 'work' mean?
Message:
Re: You're constipated, you take a laxative, later you take a dump: the laxative is 'working'

You're impotent, you take Viagra, later you get a woody: the Viagra is 'working'

You're unhappy and confused, you get Knowledge, later you are happy and clear: the Knowledge is 'working'

Duhhh....

You're uneducated and spoiled, with no means of support. You pass yourself off as holy and enlightened. The naive and impressionable buy it. Your con is 'working.'

Double Duhhh...

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 06:05:29 (EDT)
From: Mendl Mosskovitch
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: What does 'work' mean?
Message:
You're a wacked out, techno geek, die-hard devotee of m....with far too much time on your hands. You'd hate to see him go down to a bunch of ex premies telling the truth.
So you come here and foist your garbage on the ex-premies, and THINK thats 'working'.

Triple Duhhh

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:04:10 (EDT)
From: Mimi Mosskovitch
Email: None
To: Mendl Mosskovitch
Subject: Re: Thank you Mickey Moss...For EVERYTHING you've done!
Message:
You're uneducated and spoiled, with no means of support. You pass yourself off as holy and enlightened. The naive and impressionable buy it. Your con is 'working.'

Behold Maharaji's defence!

He was a VICTIM. He had NO CHOICE BUT to be a CON. AND IT WORKED!!!

So ex premies, its over now, we can all go home. Thats it, no more ex premie 'show'.
You see, we have no right to be angry (besides, you must remember, anger will only cloud our vision), BECAUSE.... we were victimized by someone who was a mere victim just like like oursevlves. Thats right!
Its like shit happens you know! And its no big deal!!!

But before we go, lets all sing along together now!

now- its-time to- say- good- bye
to-all- the- com-pa-ny...
M-I-C
See you real soon!
K-E-Y
why? because we love you!!
M-O-S-S

We're short an 's', but who cares?!:)

Hey thanks Mickey!!:::))

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 09:46:31 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: ickymickey@home.com
To: Mimi Mosskovitch
Subject: The road not traveled.
Message:
Mimi:

Have you met my wife, Mini? I hope you did not misunderstand. He didn't have to 'stay' uneducated, after all. His choice. Most people would have at least learned a trade. Other gurus, like Conrad Lenz, have been similarly 'employment challenged.' There isn't much you can do to earn that sort of money if you're not a guru, a magazine publisher, a drug pusher, or a software thief. But the choices must have seemed pretty stark to the boy guru: actually learn to do something useful, or continue to play and just adjust the nature of the con a little around the edges. What would you or I do if faced with a similar choice, I wonder? And what would we do now, 30 years later...

It's not an excuse, my dear. It's an explanation.

MM

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:38:05 (EDT)
From: Mendl Mosskovitch
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: The road who would want to travel?
Message:
Thank you Mickey,

With each additional post, I too am now having that understanding that my wife Mimi seems to have already caught on too.

But the choices must have seemed pretty stark to the boy guru: actually learn to do something useful, or continue to play and just adjust the nature of the con a little around the edges.

Yes, how horrible it must have been for our Maharaji to face these fundamentally stark choices...choices that have plagued him his entire adult life! Choices like...

To get an honest job, or not to get an honest job.

To speak the truth or not to speak the truth.

To be a fraud or not to be a fraud.

How frightening it must be for him...to even be him?!!
Yes, he deserves our attention. We should try to understand him more.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:17:45 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: Mendl Mosskovitch
Subject: Re: The road who would want to travel?
Message:
Mendl:

Re:(In the spirit of irony, if I'm not mistaken.) Yes, he deserves our attention. We should try to understand him more.

I still don't get what you're driving at. Why would you not try to understand him? Do you suppose that he's uniquely inhuman? Alas, I think not. Oh, I see... you mean you don't sympathize with him? Quite honestly Mendl, I don't think he's asking for, nor does he care about, your sympathy. That pretty much leaves you do deal with things as best you can. So who's to say that understanding him might not help you?

And what's so hot about honest toil, anyway? Most people would avoid it if at all possible, in favor of honest leisure. Only a few people find a calling: something they'd rather do than eat chocolate. Maybe he convinced himself he found a calling, and hid from the insight that it was just a turned trick. Somehow the notion that he's just a pathetic blunderer is a little more comforting that the idea that he's a diabolical genius. The world just doesn't have many diabolical geniuses, for one thing. Good grief, do you think Maharaji's on a par with Bill Gates, or something?

MM

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Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 08:56:44 (EDT)
From: Mendl Mosskovitch
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: The road who would want to travel?
Message:
Somehow the notion that he's just a pathetic blunderer is a little more comforting that the idea that he's a diabolical genius.

Yes,Mickey, we're all beginning to feel better already.
Although I myself never really viewed m from any of these two extremes. For myself he's always been some kind of weird fusion between the two...more like a 'pathetic genius' or 'diabolical blunderer'. Something along those lines.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:23:30 (EDT)
From: Curly
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: What does 'work' mean?
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 19:04:36 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji's Report Card
Message:
Pardon my arrogance Lord but because this is the last semester of the century, I feel it is time to rate your performance.

For purposes of this rating, we will assume you are the perfect master. You are not a nut. You are not a con artist. You are not God or greater than God.

A passing grade according to my varied experiences in the education system vary from 60% to 75% depending on the expectations placed on the students. I feel that given your subject matter you should be held to the highest of standards but once again I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. So let's say your passing grade is 50% ok.

So let's begin:

Have 50% of the people who have received Knowledge during your many years in the West stayed around and are currently active members of DLM/EV? I say no.
GRADE: F

Of those who have stayed around, are 50% of them fitting their lifes into knowledge as you so wisely instructed us to do or are they fitting Knowledge around their life? I maintain it is the latter.
GRADE: F

Once again pardon my arrogance but you piss me off!

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 18:17:41 (EDT)
From: Professor Staff
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Report Card
Message:
I think he dropped the class some years ago.
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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 11:05:55 (EDT)
From: Didn't you know???
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Report Card
Message:
My dear Enough,

Didn't you know its never Maharaji who fails his premies...it is ALWAYS, ALWAYS....premies who fail Maharaji!
I hope that this little experience in cyber space, has now taught you a valuable lesson in who and what Maharaji is really all about.

Good luck to you.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 02:33:19 (EDT)
From: not enough
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Premies Report Card
Message:
Since non of you premies have 'had that experience'
and 'realized knowledge', you all get a big fat F.

Knowledge 'works' but since non of you assholes taste
nectar, you get an F.

Knowledge 'works' but since non of you 'biggest assholes'
see a thousand suns, you get an F.

Knowlege 'works' but since non of you looney tunes
hear 'music' you get an F.

Knowledge 'works' but since it just seems like the
breath to you, you get an er ah, maybe your right, it IS
just breath. But, you still get an F.

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 21:01:34 (EDT)
From: Poifek Mehsteh
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Maharaji's Report Card
Message:
I never did. Never everevereverever. Nope. Never. Never did. Nope.
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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 15:54:47 (EDT)
From: Parmesh Bhavsar
Email: divineimpex@satyam.net.in
To: All
Subject: Message from premi
Message:
Jay Sacchidanand, I am Premi. I work in PR team. My wife & I very very thankful to getting
knowledge & super joy. We have no words to express our experience within. We are ready to secrifise for your mission. My ID no is 037855.Department: Public relation, & center: DC2347.
Thanks A lot
Premi
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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 16:29:12 (EDT)
From: Maharaji
Email: None
To: Parmesh Bhavsar
Subject: Re: Message from premi
Message:
Dearest Parmesh,

I must let you know that I Maharaji am an ordinary man. I am glad that you have had a pleasant knowledge experience but please do not make any sacrifice to me or my mission . I have more things than one person could ever need. If you have love and energy to give that energy is best spent on your own family and if after that you have something left to give we both know there are many poor people in India who could benefit from any assistance a feelow human could offer. Please do not worship me. I am just a man like you.

Maharaji

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:25:38 (EDT)
From: Maharaji ji
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: Re: Message from premi
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:19:30 (EDT)
From: Satpal Maharaj
Email: None
To: Maharaji
Subject: Re: Message from premi
Message:
That's right - don't worship my little brother Prem Pal, but DO worship me, Satpal Maharaj because I am the true Sat Guru who our Father, Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, passed on his spiritual power to.

By the way, here is my web site which proves that I am the son who our Father chose to be Sat Guru. You also may have heard of Prem Nagar ashram which I won off Prem Pal after our Mother and I took him to court to wrest this property from him. I am regularly worshipped there, as so I should be.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:26:37 (EDT)
From: Mata Ji
Email: None
To: Satpal Maharaj
Subject: Re: Message from premi
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:32:55 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Mata Ji
Subject: Re: Message from premi
Message:
Dear Mata Ji,

I thought you had died?

Fred

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 08:57:27 (EDT)
From: Cynthia (Mata Ji)
Email: Cynthia@madriver.com
To: Mata Ji
Subject: Re: Message from premi
Message:
I am Mata Ji, and I say you my sons are all crazy! They take me to court. They take my property. They do everything nasty, especially that little one over on Malibu cliff. He veddy veddy bad son to me. Veddy Veddy bad.

He got da evil eye that little one does so much he flies around earth and all I get is the old one with the other evil eye. How I can get new sari and jewel?

Send money please. I am live in poverty now my sons have all the power. Poor shri maharaji roll over in grave, or we did burn him up or what.. My english no so good.

Send money here to me, RIGHT NOW!! I give birth to dem both and see want tanks I get.

At least the older one give me a computer so I can join dis forum. AH....on da line at last.

Watch out for da evil eyes. Dey both alike.

Pranams to my Shri Maharaji....rest in pieces.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 11:53:38 (EDT)
From: Captain Paranoia
Email: None
To: Cynthia (Mata Ji)
Subject: Re: Message from premi
Message:
Hey Rob, don't think you can fool us by putting a dress on and acting like you are against M.

Too many disguises, all of them thin.

Happy Halloween

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:17:59 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Captain Paranoia
Subject: The above message was not from me
Message:

I'm retired and post on the AG forum.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:40:17 (EDT)
From: Captain Paranoia
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Nobody's saying it was
Message:

Now go away, it's time for my medication

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:43:52 (EDT)
From: Captain Paranoia
Email: None
To: Captain Paranoia
Subject: Maybe you should try some Prozac
Message:

It works for me....sometimes.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 09:55:20 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: Cynthia (Mata Ji)
Subject: Re: Message from premi
Message:
Mata Ji:

Who is your language coach, Al Kapp?

MM

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 13:51:56 (EDT)
From: young old
Email: None
To: Anth
Subject: To Anth
Message:
Anth...

Thank you for the thoughtful reply.

The alias I use is youngold, as in getting K when I was young, (18) and now I am old.
(45). (oldER, anyway).
I received K in 1972 right after Montrose program in Colorado.

I remember Fakiranand’s hammer job on the pie man, I was in India for 6 weeks in ‘72,
I was on “Soul Rush” the trip to the Astrodome that wound it’s way through many cities.

I was in the Ashram for two years where I was the “ House Father” (cook). I’ve been to
festivals all over the country and in Rome too.

I worked on the 707 in Miami and most big programs, I went early to help with the
kitchens.

I am writing this because it seems you are addressing me as a “young’un”.

When I left the ashram, I got married, 4 kids...the oldest (21), is trying for law school.

I stayed very active in this whole thing until the last 2 kids and running my own business
took most of my time. (1985) I still meditate, sporadically, and I’ve gone to programs
when they are near. ( The ones where M is there)

It seems a lot of the feed back to my posts are from people who accuse me of forgetting
about the belief system or that M says he is God or now he’s not. What about dedicating
your life, or total surrender or what ever.

That stuff never made any sense to me. I saw premies that were “more dedicated “ or
more spiritual than I was, but they didn’t impress me as someone I wanted to be like.
Looked too much like puffed-up ego, there was no good feeling there.

I did all the pranams and foot kissing and Arti tray swings. I spoke at the local programs
in front of 20-50 people. In the early days, I did aggressive leafleting and wheatpasting of
posters.

“ And all I ever wanted, was to come in from the cold...” (Joni Mitchell)

The spiritual talk seemed like snobbery. I didn’t buy it.

What attracted me in the first place, was a guy who was glowing with happiness. ( a
premie speaking at a small introductory program) I wanted what he had, that joy. I was
willing to do a lot for that. And I did a lot for that, often reluctantly, often stoically, once
in a while joyously.

I am still seeking the joy. I find it too. I lose it, I find it , I lose it. It’s the main focus of
my life.

Sorry for this giant tangent, your question was about succession of perfect masters. I
believe it’s true, sounds good to me. 12 years of catholic/ Jesuit education has got me in
the head space of saviors and teachers and life-afters.

But beliefs are fragile, and relative. All the different religions looking down at each other,
slight variations in belief causing rives and hatred...and killing wars. Fuck beliefs.

While I am alive, I can feel joy. That may be the best there is. Isn’t that what life is
about? I can’t stand spiritual intellectualism. Mind vomit. I’ve heard lots of that snooty
talk through the years, and it always turns my stomach.

Maybe since a child I’ve thought that God would watch over me. And that presence
never leaves, whether M is evil or good, beneficial or harmful, selfish and deluded or
selfless and misunderstood.

At some point we realize that we will die. How can we live a sane life with that terror
lurking in the background? Believe in heaven? Follow someone’s laws on how to avoid
hell?

As I get older, I gain perspective, the big picture from a distance. Joy is all that matters to
me. I hope that doesn’t sound shallow. True joy can’t be achieved by selfish means, or
shallow delusions or material excess. “Joy” is maybe the wrong word but it will have to
do for now.

I’m starting to ramble. (you decide when that was!)

Anth... write back, I’m anxious to hear your .....anything.

Young/Old

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:26:45 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: young old
Subject: What if...
Message:
Hi Youngun (I'm fifty, so you are a youngun),

You were a bit younger than me when you received knowledge, but we were around for the same stuff in the 70s and 80s.

I too was an aggressive leafleter and Divine Times seller (after all the Lord had come hadn't he?).

I've another question for you, if you don't mind. (Thanks for the time you took to answer my previous one by the way.)

What would you say if one of your children, or close friends, came to you one day, with a glint in their eye, and said, 'Something amazing has happened. I've met this incredible person who's not like anyone I've ever met. The only way I could describe him is he's like Jesus or something. He's got this teaching that makes me feel better than anything I've ever been into or tried in my life. It's genuine happiness from within. I'm giving up drink and drugs and I'm going to follow this further. I feel like I've been waiting for this all my life, and it's real. So I'm going to become a follower of the Reverend Sung Yung Moon and become a 'Moonie'.

Would you say, 'Fantastic. At last you've found something you can get into. Good luck. I hope you become completely fulfilled.' (Knowing they were joining a dead end cult that was going to confuse and exploit them).

Or would you say something else youngold?

Anth the Curious.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 04:48:56 (EDT)
From: Errol Flynn
Email: The Western Tiers
To: young old
Subject: Re: To Anth
Message:
Dear Youngold ; No-one here will understand you. You are telling the truth[about your life] without ulterior motive. What possessed you? Sincerity?No, I'm afraid no-one here will understand. Try arguing and flaming . They love that!
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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:11:53 (EDT)
From: Blackdog
Email: None
To: Youngold
Subject: friendly advice
Message:
Don't fall into the trap they set for me. They lure you in with nice friendly questions, the next thing you know they're flaming the shit out of you. Surprised you haven't been accused of being Rob yet. That seems to be the general 'excuse' for they're having a go at you.

I think that Rob is someone they invented themselves, sort of an arch-enemy for target practice, or maybe its one of their own fucking with them. Either way its a blatant way of making people like you and me look like phoneys, because the simple truth so told irks them rotten.

Watch out for the nice ones especially, they're the most devious at the end of the day.

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Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 07:11:15 (EDT)
From: Napoleon Solo
Email: Miaow
To: Blackdog
Subject: Re: friendly advice
Message:
No problem Mr Blackdog.....I'm a cat burgular!
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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:32:24 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Errol Flynn
Subject: Errols Error.
Message:
Errol,

Youngold's post was addressed to me, not to everyone. And I understand the post very well. I appreciate youngold's sincerity and try to respond in kind.

The only negative stuff so far in this thread seems to be from you.

What are you doing here Errol? Having a few doubts of your own? Get under your blanket and stop thinking. It doesn't agree with you.

Anth the lover of flames.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:39:51 (EDT)
From: VO
Email: None
To: young old
Subject: Standard xp question #37
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 05:17:26 (EDT)
From: Luke Skywalker
Email: None
To: VO
Subject: Re: Standard xp question #37
Message:
Hey Yodda, have you crossed over to the Dark Side?
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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:01:12 (EDT)
From: VO
Email: None
To: Luke Skywalker
Subject: Re: Standard xp question #37
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 09:58:11 (EDT)
From: Gregg Chappell
Email: 3CPO?
To: VO
Subject: Re: Standard xp question #37
Message:
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:00:35 (EDT)
From: Cynthia
Email: Cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Please...Everyone Settle Down
Message:
Hello Everyone,

I explained why I 'came out' as an MPD. Please read my posts. MPD is a diffifult disorder to understand, even for those of us who have it, that's why I've tried to explain it to avoid any discomfort on everyone's part on this forum.

My sister gave me her computer because her husband is an air traffic controller and makes really decent bucks and decided to buy a new one. I'd been using my old 386 Gateway and coldn't afford to buy myself a computer to get online. I got on the internet last week for the first time. I'd been having difficulty dealiing with any contact I've had with premies, heard about this web site, read every journal and came to the conclusion that I could be freed fom the cult. I decided that I had to make the distinction between 'hanging on, or spacing out' and recognizing m a a fraud, betrayer, and cult leader.

I am co-conscious with all of my parts--that means that I am aware of what they are up to (in my mind) and for the past 9 years I've reached a point where I am Cynthia almost all of the time. But I lucked out in the arena of dissociative disorders. I have been diagnosed with MPD but most of my parts were fragments, which have held certain (personal) memories, feelings, or body memories. I can't expect to gain your trust unless I tell you this. It's not the first time I've experienced the stigma of having a mental disorder, so I welcome the opportunity to explain, so some discomfort on your part(s) can be relieved.

MPD is a phenonon of the mind/consciousness. It's only been in the past 10-12 years or so that professionals have learned to treat the disorder. An interesting tidbit: When I was hospitalized in a private psch hospital several years ago, I asked my therapist, (who is a nationally renouned psychiatric in this field) : 'Sometimes I feel like I made all of this up.' She answered 'Yes, you did make it all up. You made it up in your head. If you hadn't, you would have died.'

So, difficult to understand or not, I believe I have a right to be here. I am not an imposter, nor would I post under another alter because the only active one is Sydney, who has already been instructed to stay off of this forum. That's how it works. I am the core person. I am the person who is was born Cynthia, I'm the boss. I don't know how else to explain it.

And I don't know what else to say. I've been spending more than a few hours trying to download old forums. A cyber-techie I am not. I don't even like the internet that much. I just like to research things that interest me, like aquariums because I have 3 tanks, cats, because I have 3--they are my children, and political issues. I am a really big mouth when it comes to voicing my politics to my representatives. Another reason I wanted to be on the internet. I'm very vocal on loca/state/national political issues because I really don't fear people of authority anymore.

So, please, cool off everyone, the last thing I would ever want to dto is to hurt someone. Haven't we all been hurt enough? I had an intuition that this issue might cause some rumbling.

Peace and love to all, Cynthia

P.S. GOT DISH? I got a glimpse of a recent mailing to: Join Maharaji and an audience of more than 80,000 people in your own living room.

Price: $20.00/ broadcast or $50 for the 3 broadcast schmere.
(But if you CHOOSE to view it in a 'community venue' there 'may' be some additional costs.

Just what I want: to spend more money on m, watch $20 videos screenings (some of them are delayed by satellite availability on dishnet) and they broadcast tapes.

I'm going shopping tomorrow and buy myself a present on HIS behalf.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:48:25 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: Cynthia
Subject: Thanks, Cynthia!
Message:
Dear Cynthia -
Thanks for posting this. I was on the verge of posting that I was sure that you had clearly identified yourself as 'Cynthia' in all the messages posted, but then I thought I'd better check with you first. It's clear now that you have done so, and I thank you for that.

And if you need help in downloading old forums, you can e-mail Brian, the webmaster, at brian@ex-premie.org if you have problems. He'll help you. You can tell him I sent you :).

Take care -
Love,
Katie

P.S. I'm also a cat-lover (I have two, and they are like my children too.)

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 14:53:57 (EDT)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Katie
Subject: Re: Thanks, Katie!
Message:
Dear Katie,

Thanks for your post. I'd like to respond further to the posts in Confusion...MPD.

MPD is a bona fide psychiatric/psychological diagnosis clearly defined in the DSMR-IV, which is a reference/bible used by those in the mental health provider community to classify mental illnesses and disorders. When it was updated a few years ago from DSMR-IIIR, MPD was deleted as a diagnosis in it's own category and placed into the Dissociative Disorders section. One reason for this is because there is a lot of backlash concerning this disorder, There are professionals who proclaim it doesn't exist. The debate still goes on, but there is a huge backlash and the media has picked up on the negative response to those who have the disorder and those who treat people with it. So, I don't choose to have MPD, Why would I waste my precious life going through all the suffering?

Also, I am far enough along in my own healing process to know that I am one, whole person, who happens to have several parts. That's why I would never post under an alter's name because it would be counter-productive and hurtful to myself. It would also be inappropriate because when learning how to manage all these parts, we are taught that we no longer need to dissociate to the degree we had to as children by splitting off. So it's a constant practice/struggle to maintain control over the inside system and I've made so much progress in the past five years.

Everyone dissociates. Highway hypnosis--when you drive home from work and don't remember the trip, when you read a chapter in a book and realize your mind was elsewhere are both examples of how humans naturally dissociate. So on the scale of dissociative disorders, MPD is way at the other end. Everyone who has it (and I know many) has a different dynamic and method of processing their various parts within. As I said, I was lucky, because I never had the problems such as the famous 'Sybil' who also experienced fugues, (that's when an alter takes over and takes off for days, months, and even years at a time) then the core person one day 'wakes up' and find themself in a different town, in different clothes, etc. In the past, Idid lose time, but that was in the early stages of my therapy when my parts inside were in chaos. My job is/has been to reparent myself, and all of the parts inside.

It's not a 'concept.' Believe me, there is no way someone can 'conceptionalize' this disorder. Anyone who would purposely pretend to be a multiple I would consider truly evil. The healing process is grueling, painful work. Not every victim of child abuse has the ability to 'split' and create parts inside of themselves. Although one characteristic that seems to stand out is that those who become multiples during their childhood tend to have a very high intelligence level .

Geezum Crow! I really didn't expect this much attention, but I thank you all for the opportunity to clarify who I am and the disorder itself.

FYI: I saw my therapist today and mentioned to her that some people on the forum have had difficulty finding therapists who work with ex-cult members. Her response was that it is very unlikely that anyone who works with ex-cult members will advertise as such, because there are some cults (especially satanic and ritual abuse cults) who are very active in stalking their fleeing members. In addition, thereapists, themselve have been threatened and stalked by these types of cults because they were targeted as the therapist for someone trying to escape. In this regard, it's life threatening for these therapists to advertise. But there are many good people out there who are very knowledgeable about the dynamics of exiting a cult and it may take some time to find the right person, but in the long run, it's worth it if anyone feels a real need for professional help.

I welcome more questions about MPD. But for those real skeptics out there, I suggest you search the net for some information on the disorder. One of the big backlash groups is the 'False Memory yndrom Foundation.' It was founded by the parents of a professor of psychology who started to experience the emergence of repressed memories. There is no such diagnosis as 'false memory syndrome.' And this particular group is filled with perpetrators of incest and other varieties of sexual abuse of children.

Love to all, be well, have a great weekend and thank your for all your attention. I hope my posts help educate someone about MPD. Whether you chose to believe or trust me is your stuff.

I'm going shopping!.........Cynthia

Lastly, from what I can tell, most of the posters here use aliases. That's perfectly find with me, I think it's up to every individual to decide about that. I prefer to use my real name and I have also published my email address here.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:32:12 (EDT)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: All
Subject: hats off
Message:
There was a spiritual teacher who would speak to his followers daily. In the back of the
room there always stood a ragged heckler.

He would blurt out his objections and scoff at the teacher constantly, to the dismay and
anoyance of the followers.

One day, he didn’t show. The word got around that he had died.

The followers sighed in releif and commented that is was good that the bothersome
intruder was gone.

The teacher, however was tearful and grief stricken. He said, “ That man was my only
friend, he made strive for the highest truth.”

I think I would rather be criticized by you all , than lulled by mush.

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 07:07:08 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: youngold
Subject: Do you believe in 'Perfect Masters'?
Message:
Hi Young'un,

I wonder where we get this wierd idea from, that there's such a thing as a 'spiritual teacher'.

I'm pretty sure that we all need a full deck of archetypes in our mind to develop, starting with mum and dad, and a bit later, santa claus, 'goodies' and 'baddies', 'evil monsters' and 'saints', but when you get older and discover that real life is more complicated, rich and exciting than 'shuffling archetypes'.

This old concept of 'guru', 'master', 'perfect master', 'avatar', 'christ figure', 'buddha', 'enlightened one' and so on needs closer examination.

Youngun, you wouldn't believe how fragile the whole thing is inside your head.

Do you remember that moment when you said to yourself, 'Yes. This is it. I've found the 'Master'. I've found the 'knowledge'. The world changed in a second.

It changes back the same way.

This 'Master' stuff doesn't work in real life youngun. I don't know how long you've been in the cult, but the garbage that's been piling up in Divine Light Mission, later to be called Elan Vital, for the past 30 years or so makes the phrase, 'by his fruits shall you know him', ring true.

Young'un, a question if you don't mind, (feel free to ask me too) do you believe, not only in 'Masters', but in the idea of the 'Perfect Master'.

By 'Perfect Master' I mean, the creator of the universe, present on Earth in a human body, sharing his divine enlightenment with those prepared to follow him. There is only one Perfect Master at a time. Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Guru Nanak, St Francis, Moses, Maharaji's father, and now Maharaji, are all part of the chain. (See Maharaji's personal website for more details on the 'Perfect Master' lineage. He believes it all himself.)

So, my question young'un, do you believe in the chain of 'Perfect Masters'?

Anth the Unbeliever.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:32:38 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Re: hats off
Message:
Hey youngold,

This is pretty amazing stuff!

The teacher, however was tearful and grief stricken. He said, “ That man was my only
friend, he made strive for the highest truth.”

Ok, so lets say Maharaji is the teacher. And exes are a group of 'ragged hecklers' as your story puts it. And I, am one of these ragged hecklers.

Now it seems to me that if exes are his 'only friend,' according to how this master in your story seems to be so genuinely expressing it....then why didn't Maharaji invite any exes to Marolyn's birthday party?

Hey, we're his 'only friend'! Is that how you treat your 'only friend'?!
You a throw a big party for the wife's 50th at your bijoux palace on the hill...you invite all your dweebie friends, you know the ones who are good for cold cash but not much of anything else? And you totally IGNORE your ONLY FRIENDS, those who make you 'strive for the highest truth'!!!

Youngold pal, who in the world would EVEN want a teacher like that? WHO?!

And please pwkies...don't all answer at once:::))

BTW, I thought your last line kinda had a nice touch to it though.

I think I would rather be criticized by you all , than lulled by mush.

Hats off to you too...for what I really don't know...but hats off, nonetheless!

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:59:40 (EDT)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: hats off
Message:
Joey...I am saying story just to give a feeling about why I think it's good for me to be challenged and criticized by the intelligent and passionate people that do. The story didn't refer to M at all.
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:17:50 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Re: hats off
Message:
Alright, I went back and reread it!

Let me see if I understand you now.

YOU'RE the teacher, and WE'RE like your 'ragged hecklers' and 'only friend'? Is that it?

And youngblood, do you really feel that exes are helping you 'strive for the highest truth' as your story puts it?
Because if your answer to that question is positive, then I WOULD like to refer to m for a moment and ask you this question?

Why do you need him at all?

Of course if you're answer is negative,that is you DON't think we help you strive for the highest truth, then why the 'hats off' post?

I mean, I think that would be a little insincere on your part...don't you think youngold?

Look'n forward to hearing from you.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:25:37 (EDT)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: hats off
Message:
It is just a story to make a point. I think it is good to be criticized and tested.

I do not have the bitter hatred towards M that many of you do. I think that you are letting that cloud your vision a little.

I am not a diehard devotee and I am not an angry ex. There is a huge space in between.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:57:02 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Re: hats back on
Message:
I am not a diehard devotee and I am not an angry ex

Sorry, youngblood, you only got one out of two right. I'm really not all that impressed.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 23:38:05 (EDT)
From: Katie
Email: mishkat@gateway.net
To: youngold
Subject: Re: hats off
Message:
Hi Youngold -
I don't have 'bitter anger' towards Maharaji either. In fact, some things about my involvement with Maharaji's organization were actually good for me. I am talking here about the kindness of some of the premies I encountered - I'll always be grateful for that.

Personally, I don't feel strongly enough about Maharaji to be angry at him. But I wasn't involved for all that long, was able to pick up the pieces of my life afterwards, and, frankly, Maharaji wasn't more than a blip among some of the OTHER things that affected my life.

However, I've spent a lot of time (over two years) reading and posting on this forum. I think some of the people here have a definite right to be angry at Maharaji. Their involvement with him led to far more bad things than good things in their lives. I am not saying that they should be angry at Maharaji forever - I don't think that would be good for any one of them. But I think that it's important in their own healing process to have a place to express their anger (like here).

Personally, I'd like everyone here to get to the point where they think Maharaji is boring...or else to the point where they never think of him at all.

Take care,
Katie

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 13:05:23 (EDT)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Re: hats off
Message:
point taken. Thanks for the comment
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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:46:18 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Re: hats off
Message:
I Appreciate your honesty.

Fred

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:15:48 (EDT)
From: rodney king
Email: None
To: All
Subject: such a beating
Message:
Can't we all just get along?
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:18:23 (EDT)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: All
Subject: confusion-multiple personality
Message:
right now, on this forum, we have a person who confirms having MPD (Multiple Personality Disorder). This person cannot confirm how many personalities have been posting here.
we also have the return of 'Rob' (who might also have MPD).
We also have some victims in surch of 'healing' and therapy.
this is getting weird, 'cause all happening at about the same time; not the illness, rather not knowing who is posting here.
i am the only one who feels this way?
This forum is
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:25:08 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Re: confusion-multiple personality
Message:
We've dealt with people acting with extreme anger on numerous occasions (not to mention spammers and other compulsive premies).

MPD isn't a universally accepted concept, but if Cynthia is able to make use of it, I wouldn't argue it.

When people go a little outside the lines, it doesn't bother me and sometimes they make more sense to me then people who are 'normal'.

It might not be that much of a stretch to deal with people who are unconventional mentally and not make a big deal out of it. Cynthia gave us quite a bit of info about what bent her out of shape. Seems like people are just hurt more than normal and it affects their functioning. It doesn't have to be that hard to deal with some of this stuff.

I also agree with other posts I am reading that are making the distinction between MPD and people fraudulently or sarcastically posting under different names.

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 22:09:39 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave (retired)
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Runamok
Subject: My multiple personality disorder
Message:

It has been pointed out to me on The ANYTHING GOES forum that I am also Elvis Presley. I genuinely didn't know this and am grateful to the poster who told me. I didn't know that I had had a brilliant singing career lasting several decades culminating in me faking my own death and later taking on this other identity of some guy living in South London, England.

If anyone knows of anyone else who I might be, please let me know.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:11:49 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: I Don't
Message:
If you look at the history of the forum, the vast majority of posts are by people who sincerely are who they are. When people try various deceptions they are found out pretty quickly, like Blackdog down below.

Cynthia may have MPD, but that is quite different from posting under a fake alias, pretending to be someone else. When Cynthia posted as another of her 'personalities' I think to most of us it was quite real, because it was. Cynthia later straightened it out for us and explained. Frankly, I find that fascinating.

Blackdog, on the other hand is just playing games, and doing PR for the cult. That doesn't appear real at all and it's quite transparent.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:22:33 (EDT)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: okay but...
Message:
how do you know that one of cynthia's personalities are not Rob or Blackdog? she (he?) herself claimed that she could only vouch for her 'core' personality?
i don't want to play mind games here, just want to know what is going on...maybe Cynthia can explain a little more (if she wants to)
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:50:40 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Well Because
Message:
Cynthia still posts as Cynthia. And I think when someone has MPD they sound like real people when they are exhibiting another personality, not somebody, like Rob, who sounds like a really, really bad screenwriter.
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:51:11 (EDT)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Well Because
Message:
did you read what Cynthia wrote down below? (here is an excerpt:

'I had to take a day off from this site yesterday because I really did get triggered as, Monmot said. Part of my posts were by an alter (the all-caps) which is inside of me (a 19 yr.old girl named Sydney) who is the part of me that is confrontational, fearless, my rescuer, but has a very black and white mentality.^'

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:09:46 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Yeah, and She Posted that as Cynthia (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:01:19 (EDT)
From: who knows
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Re: Well Because
Message:
come to think of it, i would like to drop this subject. i dd not really want to discuss Cynthia in particular i wanted to express a 'general feeling'. sorry Cynthia if these posts offended you, it was not my intention.
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:59:01 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: who knows
Subject: Re: okay but nothing...
Message:
i don't want to play mind games here...

Sorry pal, thats EXACTLY what you're doing here , nothing more and nothing less.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:48:07 (EDT)
From: No one you know
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Sorry Joey-who knows has a valid point
Message:
And he/she has every right to express that without you implying that he/she is playing mind games. I am in contact with others who also have questions in their minds over this.

You really should stop being so confrontational. Do you know Cynthia personally? If not, then how the hell do you know whether or not she is for real? Only time will tell us all....

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:14:54 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: No one you know
Subject: Re: Sorry Joey-who knows has a valid point
Message:
You really should stop being so confrontational. Do you know Cynthia personally? If not, then how the hell do you know whether or not she is for real? Only time will tell us all

Very cute about the 'confrontational'.
Cynthia is posting under her own name, something that makes her a little more courageous than you.
Her posts are definitely more genuine than that of a troll, even a good natured troll.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:40:19 (EDT)
From: No one you know
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Pick your fights elsewhere
Message:
I'm not getting into this name calling pissing match with you. You have indicated recently that some of your behavior in the past was less than civil and you also implied that you have mended your ways. Lets keep it like that.

Joey, take note of the fact that you posted under Nim for quite some time-as well as a few other anonymous names.

I still say that who knows had every right to express his/her confusion--the exchange of ideas is what this forum is all about.

I post anonymously because it is MY choice to do so. And I don't care what you think about that.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:21:38 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: No one you know
Subject: Re: Pick your fights elsewhere
Message:
I'm not getting into this name calling pissing match with you. You have indicated recently that some of your behavior in the past was less than civil and you also implied that you have mended your ways. Lets keep it like that.

Whatever indication you received from me, its more than anything we can ever expect from you.

There are people who post anonymously, and they're really genuine. Whoever you are, you'll never be anything less or more than an outright fake...just like your master.

No pissing match...thats just the way it is.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:06:23 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: No one you know
Subject: Re: Sorry Joey-who knows has a valid point
Message:
If who know's point is so valid, how come IT has just indicated, IT wants to drop the point.
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:20:08 (EDT)
From: No one you know
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Sorry Joey-who knows has a valid point
Message:
My best GUESS is that he/she doesn't want to duke it out with you. You take no prisoners. Take note of the fact that the title of who knows first post on this subject was 'confusion-multiple personality'. The message itself appears sincere.
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:30:36 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: No one you know
Subject: Re: Sorry Joey-who knows has a valid point
Message:
Well, she was duking it out mainly with JW when she withdrew her point. Are you suggesting that he has a reputation of 'taking no prisoners' as well?

While the original message itself appeared 'sincere'...it was wrong, and it was wrong of who knows to make it. And when people feel the need to exclaim that they're not playing games with you...its been my experience that they usually are.

And BTW you definitely DON'T sound sincere. And I certainly won't be conducting a discussion on sincerity with someone who calls themselves 'no one you know'.

That would be a little too ridiculous.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:31:23 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Here come the hoaxters!!(OT)
Message:
BERINGER'S AUTOGRAPHED STONES
by Donald E. Simanek(reprinted from the AFF website)
In the early 18th century many geologists thought that fossils were nothing more than the bones of dead creatures buried in ancient floods and then turned to stone. Leonardo daVinci had even accepted that explanation. This was an period of history when even the best scientists mixed science and religion, producing a muddled mess.
There were competing theories about the nature of fossils. Some thought fossils were simply rocks which happened to mimic animal shapes. But some fossils clearly did not resemble any animals still living. Therefore those must be oddities, pranks, or sports of nature (lusi naturae). Perhaps God had chosen to fashion some stones to look like fish skeletons. Who are we to question his reasons for doing so?

Dr. Hohann Bartholemew Adam Beringer of the faculty of medicine of Würtzburg, thought that some few of these stones might be dead animals (fossils), but most were just handiworks of God, fashioned for His own pleasure. Beringer lectured widely on this theme and was highly respected in certain quarters.

But he made enemies. Some thought him arrogant and dogmatic in his views. Two of his detractors conceived a scheme to show him up as a fool.

We don't know all of the details of this affair (and we don't even have pictures of the participants), but historical research has revealed who the hoaxers were. J. Ignatz Roderick (Roderique) was professor of geography, algebra, and analysis at the U. of Würtzburg. The other was Honorable Georg von Eckart (Eccard), Privy Councillor and Librarian to the Court and to the University.

Beringer had a special hill where he dug his stones. He hired young men to do the digging. Roderick and Eckart made some special stones and bribed one of the diggers to plant these in the diggings. When these were discovered, Beringer was elated, for they were far clearer than anything previously discovered. He considered them to be the artistic handiwork of God. At great expense he published a book about them, with elaborate plates of the stones.

Beringer eloquently defended his interpretation of the stones:

God, the Founder of Nature, would fill our minds with His praises and perfections radiating from these wondrous effects, so that, when forgetful men grow silent, these mute stones might speak with the eloquence of their figures.
The more stones he dug up, the more fakes Roderick and Eckart made to seed Beringer's diggings. They even grew more inventive, perhaps hoping that Beringer would catch on. One stone showed the sun and its rays. Another showed stars and comets. And finally, some turned up with Latin, Arabic, and Hebrew characters. Beringer had them translated by scholars. The words gave the name of God, Jehovah! Beringer was elated. Here was proof: God signing his own handiwork.
Even before publication of Beringer's book, critics had pointed out that some of the stones showed evidence of a sculptor's chisel. Beringer had noticed this too, and said in his book:

...the figures...are so exactly fitted to the dimensions of the stones, that one would swear that they are the work of a very meticulous sculptor...[and they] seem to bear unmistakable indications of the sculptor's knife... One would swear that he discerned in many of them the strokes of a knife gone awry, and superfluous gouges in several directions.

Beringer even notices that the top surfaces of the stones were smooth, while the lower surfaces were rough and unfinished. But this evidence of sculpting only convinced him more strongly that the chisel was wielded by the hand of God. God was practicing his skills as a sculptor.
One thing about religious ideas is that no evidence or fact can disprove them. A clever person can always find arguments, albeit empty arguments, which allow him to rationalize any absurd belief to his own satisfaction.

Roderick and Eckart at one point apparently felt the thing was getting out of hand. They tried to convince Beringer that the stones were a fraud, without however admitting that they were the hoaxers. Beringer himself relates the incident. He tells of 'two men, perhaps best described as a pair of antagonists who tried to discredit the stones.' Beringer had permitted one of them to enter his dig, and, he says,

Unbeknownst to me, he proceeded to throw it open to the public...appoint a number of diggers, and in the presence of the townspeople indulging in drink, he mockingly condemned the unearthed stones as false [and suppositions impostures.] A short time later, the other of this pair...carved into some of the more impressionable stones Hebrew characters, the figures of a winged dragon, a mouse, a lion, a pomegranate, etc.'

Beringer then appeals to the reader to see that this was just a plot to discredit his work. Quoting Beringer again:

[They want] to bring down to the dust all my sacrifices, and labors, my very reputation...
But Beringer says that this crude trick of planting fakes in no way discredited the other, authentic stones.

There is a story that they even planted a stone with Beringer's own name, but that is probably a fable.

Beringer brought Eckert and Roderick to court, to 'save his honor.' Some of the court transcript still exists, and in the testimony the hoaxers make clear that they did indeed want to discredit Beringer, because, they said, 'he was so arrogant and despised us all.'

When Beringer realized he had been hoaxed he spent a huge fortune trying to buy up all copies of his expensive book. He died in 1740, not quite achieving that goal. Fortunately he wasn't around when in 1767 his publisher brought out a second edition to meet demand from the curious, and those who wanted it as a humorous example of misguided faith. This edition outsold the first edition by several thousand copies. (Saunders, p. 50.)

The scandal not only discredited Beringer, it ruined the reputations of Eckart and Roderick. Roderick had to leave Wrzburg. Eckart lost his post and privileges to use the library and archives. This hampered his own historical researches, which were left unfinished at his death.

References
Beringer, Johann. The Lying Stones of Dr. Johann Bartholemew Adam Beringer, Being his Lithographiae Wirceburgensis. Translated and annotated by Melvin E. Jahn and Daniel J. Woolf. University of California Press, 1963. The drawings of the stones reproduced above are from this source. This source also has black and white photos of the stones.
Silverberg, Robert. Scientists & Scoundrels, A Book of Hoaxes. Crowell, 1965. The cartoon above, by Jerome Snyder, is from this source.

White, Andrew Dickson. A History of the Warfare of Science With Theology in Christendom. First published in 1896. Chapter V.

Saunders, Richard. The World's Greatest Hoaxes Playboy Press, 1980

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:37:19 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re:Hoaxters w/ better html, hopefully
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:06:25 (EDT)
From: On Topic
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: Re:Hoaxters w/ better html, hopefully
Message:
BE CAREFUL THAT WHILST TRYING TO EXPOSE 'THE HOAXER' THAT YOU DON'T LOSE YOUR PRIVILEGES.

BE WARNED ALL YOU HOAXERS OUT THERE!

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:35:39 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: On Topic
Subject: Re: Re: oooh! Am I being threatened?
Message:
ooooooh! I've been threatened. Well, how do you think I'm going to react to some nerd, who can only call himself/ herself 'ON TOPIC', threatening me about what I can, or cannot post.

Don't worry, I'll have more of that hoaxter stuff for you later...when I choose to.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 11:05:22 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Blackdog
Subject: Dear Blackdog,
Message:
Dear Blackdog,

Thank you for responding to my three questions. I asked them, not because I wanted to pounce on you, but because I truly wanted to get a realistic perspective on the current mind-set of 'People With Knowledge.' For me, Rawat has gone from being the teacher to being the subject matter, a subject I still find pretty interesting. And, to tell you the truth, I am hoping to see signs of the downfall that he so richly deserves (in my opinion). So, the current premies are of interest.

People with Knowledge - what to call them??? How to understand them? It's very very difficult these days because you have so many varieties of 'premie.' To name a few:

There's Buzz Laughlin, who just posted an 'Expression' on ELK. He's a 'Christian premie' of all things. Rawat always said you could be a Christian and a premie at the same time, but everybody knew he didn't mean it (except Buzz, I guess). Devotion to Jesus and Rawat, two gurus in one!

Then there's the premie who posted here about two weeks ago who self-identifies as both a premie and an agnostic. How one practices Knowledge and Unknowledge all at the same time is beyond me, but it seems to work for him. I forget his name and/or alias. But I remember Anth mentioning the discrepancy, (although his remark didn't seem to register).

Of course there are the die-hard toe-lickers from the early gopi days. I know one personally who is still patiently waiting for Maharaji to manifest his true form for the benefit of the whole world. She lives with her box of memorabilia and hope eternal.

And then there are the new 'meditation students', rather too-perfectly personified by yourself, Blackdog. You do such a good job at expressing the current party line that one has difficulty believing you are really the bus-driving, slang-speaking character that you portray yourself to be. For all we know, you may be just another premie pissed off at exes who can't ignore us who disquises himself and hopes to cause dissent (the worst category of premie in my opinion). Forgive us if we are wrong about you.

Rawat has worn too many hats. Knowledge is too chameleon. Premies have become an amorphous mass impossible to understand. This whole thing used to be a good, old-fashioned cult with a right proper Master with the one and only True Spiritual Experience and devotees acting just like they are supposed to. Now look at it! It's a right tosser, if you ask me, Mate.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:09:07 (EDT)
From: Blackdog
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Dear Blackdog,
Message:
Dear Way,

Remember what I said when you first asked those 'simple questions'? I said sure, but if it turns into a slanging match you're on your own. Well having just ran the gauntlet of that thread below - the 'there's Rob lets kick the shit out of him' one - I think you know what my next move is.

Before I go, oh what's the point?

I was going to say I gave straightforward answers to what seemed like innocent and genuine questions, but it seems to have sounded to you lot like something this other cunt would have said. Maybe it just pisses you off too much when someone says anything good about Maharaji, you can't handle it.

So anyway, I'm off. For what good it will do, no I never posted here as Rob, or Catweasel or SHP or anyone other than what I already owned up to, namely Blackdog, Raoul, Miguel and Kermit the frog, and them last 3 were just having a laugh. I can't prove it, but then I don't really give a fuck if you believe me or not.

Oh and Dave, next time you're on the 217 Turnpike lane to Waltham Cross keep your ears open, maybe I'll play some One Foundation tapes for you.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:41:33 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Way
Subject: Re: Dear Blackdog,
Message:
I haven't even read the other responses to your oh-so-insightful post, man, but I'll tell you this right off the bat.

Your problem is understanding the simple fact that Knowledge, just like life itself, is an individual experience. Every person has their own take on it. The only thing in common, and the only thing that seems to distinguish 'premies' from 'non-premies' or 'ex' premies, is that Knowledge has worked for them, and that they appreciate it and give it some value in their lives.
Mili's Page

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 20:52:29 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: ickymickey@home.com
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Dear Blackdog,
Message:
Mili:

Re: 'The only thing in common, and the only thing that seems to distinguish 'premies' from 'non-premies' or 'ex' premies, is that Knowledge has worked for them, and that they appreciate it and give it some value in their lives.'

Strictly speaking, at least for me, the difference has everything to do with Maharaji and very little to do with what you call 'Knowledge.' That *is* an individual thing. On the other hand it'd take a blind person not to see that Maharaji: 1. Claimed to be Lordatheuniverse; and 2. Is nothingathesort. The rest follows as the day the night.

MM

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 16:51:40 (EDT)
From: Mendl Mosskovitch
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: Dear Mickey Moss
Message:
Strictly speaking, at least for me, the difference has everything to do with Maharaji and very little to do with what you call 'Knowledge.' That *is* an individual thing. On the other hand it'd take a blind person not to see that Maharaji: 1. Claimed to be Lordatheuniverse; and 2. Is nothingathesort. The rest follows as the day the night.

Just off the top,I never heard of 'Lordatheuniverse,' I heard of the 'Lord Of the Universe,'or of someone who made those claims and/or was allowing others to make them on his behalf.

Now how can the difference between premies and exes have 'everything to do with Maharaji' as you put it, or at least their perception of him?

But you're right...premies maintain an idolatrous perspective of m, and exes have, or are, atleast trying to break free from that.

No he wasn't the Lord of the Universe , nor is he today some other kind of divine being.

He's a fraud, I'm sorry to say...a spiritual,serial, mass con artist.

Again, you're right...'the difference has everything to do with Maharaji...'

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 23:01:28 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: Mendl Mosskovitch
Subject: Re: Dear Mickey Moss
Message:
Mendl:

I have to admire your dialectic.

MM

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:29:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Mili is as thick as ever (big, BIG yawn)
Message:
Mili,

You're stupido commandante. Stupido maginifico mi loco poco. You have no sense of how to think, how to reason. What you just said here is as dumb as saying that every Ford that breaks down does so because it isn't driven properly.

Idiot.

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 00:39:14 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mili is as thick as ever (big, BIG yawn)
Message:
Thanks, Jim. It could be said that coming from you, that's a compliment, eh?

Your example is not quite correct. It could be said that 'Some Fords break down if they're not driven properly.' But you don't really want to understand that, anyway.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:09:25 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: To Mili
Message:
Mili,

Thanks for the link to your site, although I'm not sure why you've provided it again. I've been to your site before, about five times. I have the impression that you are fairly well informed about the history of Knowledge. Perhaps you have read the Hans Yog Prakash? If so, what do you think Shri Hans would say if he heard how the current premies describe Knowledge these days? I personally think that Shri Hans would have a little problem with your own statement that: 'every person has their own take on it.'

Oh well. I'm not really up for this. Once you have read all of the posts below that preceeded your post above, you will see that I've thrown in the towel. I know I've been a little harsh with premies in the past, and I probably come across as arrogant sometimes, but I don't like name-calling and the mean-spirited, personal insults.

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 21:14:54 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: To Mili
Message:
Way:

but I don't like name-calling and the mean-spirited, personal insults.

Oh this is nothing. Try discussing crime rates with a gun enthusiast, or whether Jan. 1, 2000 is the start of the next Millenium. Talk about personal insults! Don't get me started. I'm already feeling verklempt.

-MM

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:20:52 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Way - I'm the agnostic premie
Message:
Way,

You can practise K and be an athiest. Knowledge is an experience not a belief system.

An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if there is a God. And I'm not sure. I've seen too many bad things happen to good people, and vice versa, for me to be convinced (beyond a shadow of a doubt) that a loving caring God is in control of the world. I'm not sure.

But I can still meditate and feel that relief and relaxation.

You're right, the 70s are over.

DD

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Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 05:28:19 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Correction
Message:
You said:-

An agnostic is someone who doesn't know if there is a God

This is incorrect. An agnostic is someone who believes it is impossible to know whether there is a god or not.

John the pedant.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 17:54:32 (EDT)
From: Fred
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Way - I'm the agnostic premie
Message:
More power to you.

Fred

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 07:35:17 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Knowledge is a belief system.
Message:
Hi Dog,

So knowledge is an 'experience not a belief system' eh?

So, if I ask you, 'how do you experience it?' I assume you'd say through the four techniques. (Correct me if I've got this wrong.)

And if I ask you, 'what is it an experience of?', what are you going to say Dog?

I'll be more specific. What is the fourth technique an experience of?

I experience the taste of snot. What do you experience?

Is it something 'divine and holy' connected to the 'limitless peace within', sort of 'holy nectar type stuff'.

Because if it is Dog, there's your belief. Stacked up alongside all your other beliefs. Beliefs like:

The Perfect Master.

The ignorance of everyone else in the world except premies.

That four meditation techniques give you an experience of 'god within'.

The there is such a thing as 'Maharaji's grace.'

That your life should be spent 'serving your master'.

a) That your master is one with god.

b) That your master is god.

c) That your master is greater than god.

(choose one from the above three).

Maybe you believe in the divine power of charanamrit. (water Maharaji's washed his feet in).

Maybe you believe in the power of 'darshan', the holy presence of the master, greatest pleasure of the devotee.

Maybe you believe that the waffle you hear on videos is 'divine wisdom', and this is why you pay so much money to watch them.

So Dog, prove me wrong. Tell me you don't believe any of this bullshit.

Anth the Unbeliever.

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:51:00 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Anth - don't mistake the menu for the meal!
Message:
Anth,

M asks premies to be like water, clear, odorless, colorless, fluid, and able to fill any container. Water under pressure can cut through steel. Water can give life and take life. It's powerful stuff.

So when you ask 'Dog, prove me wrong. Tell me you don't believe any of this bullshit,' I can honestly answer that when I'm meditating I don't believe anything. Beliefs are irrelevant. I experience peace when I stop talking to myself. Painted cakes do not satisfy hunger.

Your experience of K (and I hesitate to call it that) is your experience only, not mine.

DD

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 07:39:29 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Why don't you answer the question dog?
Message:
What's the problem here Dog? Why don't you answer my question?

Really, 'When I meditate I don't believe in anything.' is one of the most bullshit answers I've ever heard.

Are you scared to tell us your beliefs? Don't hide them under a bushel.

Let's have an answer. Do you believe that bullshit or not?

Anth still trying to get a straight answer from a premie.

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Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:40:37 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Why don't you answer the question dog?
Message:
Anth the thick,

To my mind (no joke intented) the whole purpose of K is to rise above the thinking process, our cultural hypnosis, our personal conditioning, our rational mind, and get in touch with our soul, essence, true nature etc.

M shows us how to do that. You can be an athiest, agnostic, Christian in that meditative space.

As far as my beliefs go, most are filed under fiction.

DD

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Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 18:15:36 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Why...
Message:
Why do you file most of your beliefs under 'fiction' Dog?

Are you lacking faith and confidence in yourself?

And why are you scared to admit to them here?

So, Dog, I'll ask you again.

Do you believe Maharaji is the present 'Perfect Master', in a line that goes back to include Jesus, Buddha, Guru Nanak etc?

Anth the thick, though not too thick to notice you haven't answered my question yet.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 02:48:54 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Where does Maharaji fit in?
Message:
I can honestly answer that when I'm meditating I don't believe anything. Beliefs are irrelevant.

Is that all that matters? How does Maharaji fit into that? Could you have your experience without him? Would meditation have less of an appeal if you learned the techniques from another premie, or even an ex? And what about that 4th technique? Anth states it pretty clearly. You're meditating on some pretty gooey stuff there in an effort to find peace.

Why don't you try sucking on your thumb instead? Meditate on that. I bet it works just as well. Why wouldn't it? Heck, after the 4th technique, I'd say it's fair game on whatever you want to come up with to take you there. Anybody else have some suggestions on meditation techniques to replace the 4th one? Come on. Try your hand at being the perfect master. See what kind of kooky techniques you can come up with to enlighten your humble devotees. You never know. If enough people fall for it, you too could live in a mansion in Malibu.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:39:18 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: So, Are you a Premaybe?'
Message:
So, since 'premie' means lover of God, perhaps you are a 'premaybe.' Or maybe a 'Premwhoknows.'

I know that 'knowledge' isn't supposed to be a belief system, but rather is an 'experience,' but if you don't have the belief system, you don't have the 'experience', except of course the 'experience' of listening to your own breathing, of a pinched optic nerve, of the blood running through you thumbs, and nasal drip.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:22:56 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: To Deputy Dog
Message:
DD,

The term 'agnostic' refers to the belief that it is humanly IMPOSSIBLE to know God. Agnostism began specifically in opposition to the early Gnostics who rejected all dogma in favor of their own transcendent inner experience of 'God.' This dichotomy still holds today. Some people are religious but do not seek the transcendent, while others seek the transcendent without relying on dogma.

You are practicing Knowledge, which has been passed down from guru to guru and has always been completely gnostic. Perhaps the reason you are not aware of the proper distinction here is that the present 'teacher' has watered-down the concept of what Knowledge is to the point that it is not even recognizable anymore.

Please tell us when you received Knowledge. That would allow better communication between us. If you are a relatively recent premie, it's not completely your fault that you speak of Knowledge in ways that would make Guru Nanak turn over in his grave.

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 23:57:23 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: To Deputy Dog
Message:
Way,

This might come as a surprise to you but I don't care about 'the concept of what Knowledge is.' That is like trying to eat the word food.

I guess you could say my approach is kind of zen.

DD

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:23:20 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Dear Blackdog,
Message:
Premies have become an amorphous mass impossible to understand. This whole thing used to be a good, old-fashioned cult with a right proper Master with the one and only True Spiritual Experience and devotees acting just like they are supposed to.

Evolution means constantly challenging the status quo in order to improve. Truth is essentially constant. Religion is by definition meant to be a fixed methodology for 'manifesting the Truth on earth'. But if it is indeed the intention of the 'Truth' to exist on planet earth, the vehicle used to manifest it needs the freedom to evolve. This makes sense only because the rest of life on earth is in a constant state of evolution.

Now, there is no doubt humanity's overall awareness continues to evolve, from even the last decade until now. It is even more noticeable when you look at old TV programs and films from mid-twentieth century. So the 'package' for the dissemination of Knowledge (ie., of the Truth) constantly needs to be fine-tuned to adapt to changing perceptions and understandings. And it will continue to do so. The essential Truth however is as constant and real today as it was 10-20 years ago. And that is not theory... I say that from first hand experience.

In my opinion Maharaji has done an excellent job of keeping the package, i.e., Knowledge, in synch with changing perception. All the while, the Truth itself has remained pristine as the very first day.

And you haven't seen the last of the changes! Of course if you take the unchanging essence, i.e., Knowledge, out of the equation, you won't see the whole picture. The ever-changing vehicle is all you have upon which to fix an opinion.

So if you really can't take change, you'll have a lot of cause for crying and moaning as time goes on.

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 12:43:25 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: The Essential Truth.
Message:
Hi URL,

You go on here about 'changes' but you don't say what they are. You also say the 'Essential Truth' never changes.

Is part of this 'Essential Truth' the fact that Maharaji is the 'Perfect Master', last in the line of succession from a lineage that includes Jesus, Buddha, Guru Nanak etc?

Anth the curious.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 18:02:10 (EDT)
From: Timeless
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: The Essential Truth.
Message:
Anth,

Maharaji has grown up why haven't you? I used to enjoy your banter but it's getting a little jaded. He may have been groomed to be the next perfect master & all and I don't really like it when he makes inuendos that he is the one and only but i must say that he is the only one I've found that can point me inside and allow me to experience that state of tranquil mind where I am energetic, not angry, my mind is finally still. Who cares if you have to taste snot to experience this (a small price to pay) Anyway IMHIO when I do the 4th technique I don't taste snot. Perhaps you need your sinuses looked at!

Get out of that time-warp and join the 90's for soon it will be gone.

Timeless

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:23:38 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: Priceless!
Message:
Evolution means constantly challenging the status quo in order to improve.

Evolution means descent with variation, and enhanced survival of better-adapted variations (but that is a Darwinian explanation of the origins of life, which, I assume, you are not a big fan of).

Yes, metaphorically, 'evolution' can mean change over time. But 'challenging the status quo' is revolution, not evolution. ('Hail Chairman Marge' seems to have a ring of truth, somehow...)

Truth is essentially constant.

The speed of light alone is constant.

Religion is by definition meant to be a fixed methodology for 'manifesting the Truth on earth'.

Not in my dictionary. Who or what are you quoting, here? How can a methodology 'manifest truth'?

But if it is indeed the intention of the 'Truth' to exist on planet earth, the vehicle used to manifest it needs the freedom to evolve.

Where did you find the concept of truth as an entity with intentions of its own - rather than a descriptive term coined by humans to describe that which is undeniable?

This makes sense only because the rest of life on earth is in a constant state of evolution.

It makes no sense at all.

Now, there is no doubt humanity's overall awareness continues to evolve, from even the last decade until now.

Mmm, let's see whether I can doubt this one... knowledge (small 'k') grows; awareness changes; people change. But what do you mean by 'humanity's awareness continues to evolve'? I mean, how would you measure the change..? If you mean spiritual awareness, or somesuch, do we see fewer massacres? Less starvation? More churchgoers churgoing, or cult members cultivating? New age books being sold? Premies spending longer under the blanket before nodding off? What on earth are you talking about, URL?

It is even more noticeable when you look at old TV programs and films from mid-twentieth century.

Aha - they don't show 'I love Lucy' anymore, therefore humanity's awareness has evolved. Is that it..?

So the 'package' for the dissemination of Knowledge (ie., of the Truth) constantly needs to be fine-tuned to adapt to changing perceptions and understandings.

Had you said 'repackaging satsang as videocasettes answers the need for enhanced long-term corporate success', then at least my perceptions and understandings would be less cloudy

And it will continue to do so. The essential Truth however is as constant and real today as it was 10-20 years ago. And that is not theory... I say that from first hand experience.

All you are really saying here is you like meditating as much as you ever did. Why not use normal speech and cut out the cult hyperbole?

In my opinion Maharaji has done an excellent job of keeping the package, i.e., Knowledge, in synch with changing perception. All the while, the Truth itself has remained pristine as the very first day.

So truth (the one which is constant and 'indeed intended' to exist on planet earth) is Knowledge, is the package, which M has done an excellent job of keeping in synch with humanity's growing awareness..? Help me out here...

And you haven't seen the last of the changes! Of course if you take the unchanging essence, i.e., Knowledge, out of the equation, you won't see the whole picture. The ever-changing vehicle is all you have upon which to fix an opinion.

So if you really can't take change, you'll have a lot of cause for crying and moaning as time goes on.

Not those of us no longer in the cult, I hope.

How would you feel, Nil, when M finally decides to scrap the meditation component and become a video-only devotional trip? OK, it is hypothetical, but it wouldn't constitute a change any greater than those that have come before. Is there any point at which the changes might become too much and you too might start crying and moaning? M's retirement maybe? Suicide? Death by alcohol poisoning? A Krishnamurti-style renunciation of divinity? Cut and run followed by comfortable retirement?

Let's face it - you have no idea what he might do tomorrow (especially when the Inland Revenue start sniffing around or the child-abuse issue finally hits the public arena.)

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:50:44 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: You are a contrarian to the nth degree Nigel
Message:
As a matter of fact so much so that your points of contention become meaningless.
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:50:12 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Priceless!
Message:
Aha - they don't show 'I love Lucy' anymore, therefore humanity's awareness has evolved. Is that it..?

I was thinking of Ozzie and Harriet, myself. But either way, I think URL is wrong. I'm not so sure any one of them would prefer receiving Knowledge from the guru who is greater than God, as compared to whatever Maharaji has evolved into today. Just what HAS he evolved into, anyway? Does anybody know? URL? Ozzie would like to know.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:52:41 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Priceless!
Message:
I'm not so sure any one of them would prefer receiving Knowledge from the guru who is greater than God, as compared to whatever Maharaji has evolved into today. Just what HAS he evolved into, anyway? Does anybody know? URL? Ozzie would like to know.

Master works.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:00:10 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Bullshit justifications
Message:
Justification isn't truth. When did you hear Maharaji explain his 'evolution' in the manner you just did? Never? I'm certain of it. URL, Maharaji has never explained himself, once, about his 'evolution'. Not to me, at least. And I don't think to anybody else. Have you, perhaps, had a private audience with him? For all your talk about the 'Truth', you haven't got the slightest idea why Maharaji 'evolved', do you? You're just giving your theory on it.

But don't you think it would be nice if Maharaji just told us why he 'evolved'? This way we could 'perceive' him in a manner that he wants to be. But it seems to me, that Maharaji doesn't care about explaining his 'evolution'. Maybe it's because if he did, it would come across as just so much malarkey, as your justification for it just did.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:17:00 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Bullshit justifications
Message:
When did you hear Maharaji explain his 'evolution' in the manner you just did? Never? I'm certain of it.

Hey this is my own take on something he's said a number of times, i.e:

You need the master of the day for the people of the day. You wouldn't go to a dead doctor to get healed, so why would you go to a dead master to learn the Truth.

OK so I've applied my own words and understanding here which expands upon the original, but he did say that. That given, what role would a living master play? The jist of my comments is that you need to have a living person so that the 'packaging' can keep in step with the evolution in the understanding of the people of the day. To keep the Truth alive and fresh!

Add to that, you need to have someone deliberately keep separate the 'package' from the essential truth. That is, the 'package' is NOT the Truth. History has proven over and over again that we ALWAYS get these two mixed together and confused.

Use your own reasoning here Jerry... it's not rocket science.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:32:10 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Bullshit justifications
Message:
You need the master of the day for the people of the day. You wouldn't go to a dead doctor to get healed, so why would you go to a dead master to learn the Truth.

URL, you're really stretching it, here. This statement, in no way, explains Maharaji's personal 'evolution' from what he was in the seventies to what he is today. Try again.

The jist of my comments is that you need to have a living person so that the 'packaging' can keep in step with the evolution in the understanding of the people of the day. To keep the Truth alive and fresh!

URL, you don't know how loud I feel like laughing. Maharaji helps people to 'understand' by the way he packages himself. Gufaw! Haw haw! Give me a break.

That is, the 'package' is NOT the Truth. History has proven over and over again that we ALWAYS get these two mixed together and confused.

URL, please. I'm going to assume that what you mean here is that people are always expecting the master to 'package' himself in a certain way, yet he never does. Like Jesus, the carpenter's son, right? You've just bought into this tale. It's a religious fantasy. Masters are baloney. Maybe they say some truthful things about the inner being, but so what? Tell me, honestly. You never felt joy or love or peace before Maharaji? It was only until he came into your life that you knew these things? Master, shmaster. But if it makes your boat float, fine. Life is short and if believing in Maharaji makes your's worthwhile, that's fine, too. But you're on the ex-premie forum, URL. People here haven't had such beautiful experiences as you, supposedly (yes, I have my doubts), are. Just remember that. Okay? For us, M was a nightmare who we are elated to be waking up from. If you can't understand that, sorry. But that's the truth of it.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:08:07 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Yes, I am confused
Message:
That is, the 'package' is NOT the Truth. History has proven over and over again that we ALWAYS get these two mixed together and confused.

Originally, I thought you were talking about people's concepts about masters, but it seems that you are trying to separate the Truth (Knowledge) from the package (master). I thought the master was supposed to be the embodiment of the Truth. I guess there goes another concept down the drain.

But seriously, URL, I understand what you're saying. The Truth is within, and the master, aka package, just points to it. Right? Hey, URL, I've been around. I've listened attentively on numerous occasions to Big M. You're not telling me anything I haven't heard before. I've just realized something you haven't. There's nothing unique in Maharaji's message. He's no big deal. ANYBODY can say the things he does. If you want to put him on a pedestal for it, that's your foolishness, not mine. Not anymore.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:04:38 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: The Gospel According to URL
Message:
laughing too hard....

Okay, now I'm composed. Let's just look for a moment about what 'perceptions' must have been in the past.

For awhile, it was the 'perception' that Maharaji was god, the messiah walking on the earth as Lord of the Universe. But that 'perception' just sort of changed. We evolved. Now, Maharaji is nothing more that a glorified meditation instructor, fabulously wealthy, and he still has his feet kissed, but I guess those 'perceptions' haven't evolved yet.

For awhile, 'knowledge' was not even about meditation. 'Knowledge' was about the opportunity to dedicate, devote and surrender your life to Maharaji. Many people did just that. But that 'perception' just sort of changed. It 'evolved' we got 'over it.' Maharaji had nothing to do with it, it's just our perception and Maharaji, being as competent as he is, just adapted to our perception. He had nothing to do with creating that percetpion. Those crowns, darshans, thrones and pranams had no effect. That Christmas satsang you liked so much in which he said if you didn't devote your life to him you were going to hell, had no effect either, and he only said it because it was our 'perception' at the time, which, thankfully, has since evolved. Yeah, right.

Yeah, it used to be a cult, but isn't anymore. Maharaji used to be god, but isn't anymore. Yeah, those inconstant, non-absolute things have just changed. We should just get with the program. It's just 'fine tuning' to ask people to dedicate their lifes to him for about 10 years and then just drop that because he 'evolved.' You used to be commanded to constantly meditate and never doubt, but that just changed. I guess we really needed it that back then. We really needed a cult, but we don't anymore. Yeah, thanks for explaining that.

God, I just can't wait for the next set of 'changes.' Yeah, maybe you will evolve too, URL and we can then add 'savant' to your description.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:39:04 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Roger ** best ** ??
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:26:42 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: You know it baby!
Message:
JW you are clearly one of the ones evolution left behind. I'll use my savant qualities to predict that that the glacier you're frozen in will melt one day, and then archeologists will get a chance to study the carcass of what will hopefully be an extinct species... THE WHINING PERRENIAL VICTIM.
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:08:02 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: No 'Savant', Just 'Idiot'
Message:
I think you missed the comment, URL. I said that IF you evolve we could ADD 'savant' to your title. Currently, you have just half the title (idiot), as demonstrated by your infantile response.
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:18:04 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Ooohh you really know how to hurt
Message:
Have a good look in the mirror Joe and ask yourself who the infant is.
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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:50:55 (EDT)
From: Lee
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Dear URL
Message:
So if you really can't take change, you'll have a lot of cause for crying and moaning as time goes on.

You don't get it, do you? Why don't you go preach somewhere else URL?

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:30:44 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Lee
Subject: Re: Dear URL
Message:
Yeah, well ahem... I guess I don't Lee. I just highlighted the fact that most ex-premies have a difficult time with all the changes that have happened over the years. What did I say that wasn't valid?

Please enlighten me on this topic.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:56:10 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: To JW and URL
Message:
JW,

Thanks for taking on URL. When I read his post, I just didn't have the energy to respond. And after you took the time to make some thoughtful comments, all you got back from him was an insult, being unfavorably compared to a Siberian mammoth!

URL,

After I reread your first response to my post above, I saw behind the argumentativeness and the rather desperate rationalisations to perhaps some sincere feeling from you for what you call the 'essence of truth.' I thought: 'there's a soft spot in him that he is trying to defend.' You should realize that many of us were long-term premies and we are aware of that soft spot. If you really want to engage us in any discussion that might achieve some mutual understanding, I suggest that we start by respecting each other. As I asked DD, would you mind saying when you received Knowledge? You seem to be aware of the 'evolution' but I'm not sure you lived through it personally. It makes a difference.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:27:07 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: To JW and URL
Message:
If you really want to engage us in any discussion that might achieve some mutual understanding, I suggest that we start by respecting each other.

Look fella, I have 'engaged' you folks in discussion long enough to know there is little chance of a 'mutual understanding', primarily because anything that gets close to a rational discussion about Maharaji is flamed out of the ring by people who let their wounded emotions do the talking. You first have to get past your emotions and hurt feelings if you want any semblance of a rational discussion. So come and lecture me when you get that sorted out.

You seem to be aware of the 'evolution' but I'm not sure you lived through it personally.

Been there for most of the journey, less two or three years.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:42:43 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: To JW and URL
Message:
I should have known better.
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