Sir Dave -:- What happens Katie -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 10:14:14 (EDT)

__ Grace -:- My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:32:02 (EDT)

__ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:08:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ Joey -:- Re: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:05:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:56:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:02:26 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- I think that's a myth, Grace -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:13:08 (EDT)

__ __ Runamok -:- 4 -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:07:12 (EDT)

__ __ Runamok -:- Re: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:02:27 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Perhaps there's a 'sincerity' test -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 10:22:23 (EDT)

__ __ Katie -:- OK You Guys & a request -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:29:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ biff -:- Re: OK You Guys & a request -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 20:24:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- a request -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 16:36:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- To Biff, Susan, VP, Gerry & all -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 22:07:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ biff -:- Re: To Biff, Susan, VP, Gerry & all -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 13:22:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: To Biff, Susan, VP, Gerry & all -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:08:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ Fred -:- Re: OK You Guys & a request -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:38:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thank you, Fred -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:55:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ Gerry -:- Re: OK You Guys & a request -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:10:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Gerry -:- I didn't post this -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:57:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: I didn't post this -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:30:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Re: I didn't post this -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:08:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: OK You Guys & a request -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:16:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: OK You Guys & a request -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:01:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ Helen -:- Hi Katie -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:09:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, David and Helen -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:12:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Grace -:- Your Brother -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:20:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Thanks, Grace -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:32:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ VP -:- Thinking of Katie -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 15:04:06 (EDT)

Dr Octopus -:- How to contact -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 10:11:35 (EDT)

__ Runamok -:- Re: How to contact -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:45:19 (EDT)

Enough -:- (MORE) M was pissed -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 05:10:04 (EDT)

__ biff -:- Re: (MORE) M was pissed -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 15:02:50 (EDT)

__ as I remember it -:- Re: (MORE) M was pissed -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:12:34 (EDT)

__ __ Enough -:- Re: (MORE) M was pissed -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 06:03:26 (EDT)

__ Robyn -:- Re: (MORE) M was pissed -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 07:33:11 (EDT)

Brian -:- Loaf's Journey -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:28:35 (EDT)

__ JW -:- Schizophrenic -- Or Maybe Stage 2 -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:53:52 (EDT)

__ __ barking -:- Re: Schizophrenic -- Or Maybe Stage 2 -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 17:44:53 (EDT)

__ barking mad -:- Loaf is funny and smart (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:35:50 (EDT)

__ __ Raving woofter -:- Re: Loaf is funny and smart (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:09:59 (EDT)

__ __ On Topic -:- Orange Loaf -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:20:40 (EDT)

Marianne -:- Anth-Read your email! nt -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:42:05 (EDT)

Lee -:- Singing the praises of Forum IV -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 15:42:09 (EDT)

__ martha -:- Re: Singing the praises of Forum IV -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:35:37 (EDT)

__ __ martha -:- Re: Singing the praises of Forum IV -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:46:35 (EDT)

__ Deputy Dog -:- Lee - You are not down. -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:32:39 (EDT)

__ __ Nigel -:- Cherish that precious opportunity to come together... -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 05:05:10 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Message received, Nigel (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:06:04 (EDT)

__ Shp -:- Reply to Lee -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:13:22 (EDT)

__ __ bb -:- Re: Reply to Lee -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:17:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: Your Post -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 11:33:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Your Post -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 15:55:29 (EDT)

__ bb -:- Singing the praises of Forum IV -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:44:17 (EDT)

Know It All -:- Party Time at the Residence -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 15:10:40 (EDT)

__ Secret Agent Man -:- Party at the Residence and We Are Going to Crash It! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 15:26:12 (EDT)

__ __ Know It All -:- Re: Party at the Residence and We Are Going to Crash It! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 15:33:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ S.A.M. -:- Excellent idea - video cam at Trancas Market -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:41:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Joey -:- Marolyn, Shmarolyn...thats not why he's having a party!! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:35:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- Re: Marolyn, Shmarolyn...thats not why he's having a party!! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:42:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Marolyn, Shmarolyn...thats not why he's having a party!! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 22:03:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ KIA -:- Another excellent idea -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:09:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ S.A.M. -:- YES! Was thinking the same thing! -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 04:26:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ KIA -:- No camping for this ex -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:55:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ S.A.M. -:- No Century City for us surfers! (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:14:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Ira -:- Re: Another excellent idea -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:01:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gone -:- Re: Another excellent idea -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 00:10:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ glad -:- good riddance, 'carrot toss' -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 10:07:23 (EDT)

Cynthia G. -:- Boy Did I Get Triggered -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:51:22 (EDT)

__ Monmot -:- Re: Boy Did I Get Triggered -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 14:25:20 (EDT)

__ Katie -:- Re: Boy Did I Get Triggered -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 13:05:54 (EDT)

__ gerry -:- No sweat, Cynthia -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 13:03:57 (EDT)

Just Curious -:- 'Holy Family' Pictures? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:42:28 (EDT)

__ BarnBurner -:- Re: 'Holy Family' Pictures? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:13:12 (EDT)

__ Cynthia G. -:- Re: 'Holy Family' Pictures? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 13:00:46 (EDT)

__ __ Marianne -:- Children lighting fires -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 14:13:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ bb -:- Re: Children lighting fires -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:48:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ JW -:- Self Mutilation -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:16:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Self Mutilation -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:44:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Self Mutilation - a story -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:52:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Self Mutilation - a story -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:05:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Self Mutilation -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:03:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Self Mutilation -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 00:56:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- The Cult's Fault -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:50:06 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: The Cult's Fault and subtle abuse -:- Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:06:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Self Mutilation -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:52:05 (EDT)

Jim -:- Blackdog and history -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 11:21:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ Fido -:- Get Off.... -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 08:18:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- What are YOU doing here? Forum Administrator? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 08:52:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Blackdog -:- We used to slap kids who always ran crying to 'teacher' -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:00:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Blackdog -:- Re: We used to slap kids who always ran crying to 'teacher' -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:21:19 (EDT)

__ __ __ Anon -:- Re: You sound like a right tosser, so I'm not going to waste my breath -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 06:23:15 (EDT)

__ Katie -:- Blackdog's Original Question -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:55:09 (EDT)

__ __ Way -:- Re: Blackdog's Original Question -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 13:23:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ Blackdog -:- Re: Blackdog's Original Question -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:05:56 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ JW -:- Interesting -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:32:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Blackdog -:- Bloody hell another one! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:14:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Another What? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:17:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Nollidge Rules! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:55:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Blackdog -:- You taking the piss? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:54:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Bingo! -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 08:58:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Bingo! -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:07:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blackdog -:- Couldn't have put it better myself. No really, I couldn't! -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:07:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Jeez, the breathtaking spiritual humility of the gurunoid. -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:00:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Don't take it personal Nigel -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:36:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Hey I like this guy! -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:26:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Who Is It You Like, who is Blackdog? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:22:32 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gerry -:- Are you transmitting thoughts? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 09:29:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: Are you transmitting thoughts? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:56:30 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- No, Blackdog just isn't very good at it. -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:53:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Who Is It You Like, who is Blackdog? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:06:42 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ biff -:- Re: Who Is It You Like, who is Blackdog? -:- Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 21:09:23 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ gerry -:- Biff is Biff and a valued person here. -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 16:40:46 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ biff -:- Re: Biff is Biff and a valued person here. -:- Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 16:15:02 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- I know biff (a.k.a. little brother, and btfb) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:34:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Katie -:- Re: I know biff (a.k.a. little brother, and btfb) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:44:22 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blackdog -:- Well thanks, but dont think you're riding my bus free next time -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:46:03 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Well thanks, but dont think you're riding my bus free next time -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:24:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Blackdog -:- Re: Well thanks, but dont think you're riding my bus free next time -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:48:11 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Catweasel or URL perhaps? -:- Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 22:06:12 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ who cares -:- Oh listen to fucking Ali McBeal talking -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:53:37 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Catweasel or URL perhaps? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:23:48 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ VO -:- Re: Catweasel or URL perhaps? -:- Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:58:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Rob, (Whoever that is) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:55:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Rob -:- Re: Indeed, who the f**k are these people? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 09:23:38 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, Rob, what happened? -:- Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 10:19:47 (EDT)

Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 10:14:14 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: All Subject: What happens Katie Message:

if there's an OLD ex-premie who needs help and support? Does he go to your new ex-premie forum and pretend to be a new one? I think this idea of a forum just for recent ex-premies is a bit cock-eyed. I mean how recent is recent? The last year, two years, ten years? You tell me. But it doesn't matter. I'm a retired ex-premie and in my old age I'm just shouting out from the sidelines. Just sitting in my old-ex-premie bath chair with my blanket pulled up over my knees and making sarcastic comments and shouting obceneties to the younger generation. If you just ignore me I'll probably go away...

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:32:02 (EDT) From: Grace Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum Message:

Regardless of whether you want to admit this or not, there is a lot of game-playing that goes on with this forum (IV), which is fine and fun, but causes some problems. Like when people really need support and it's not always there because first everyone has to figure out who's real and who's not real. People don't want to be too helpful and then just be part of a hoax like that suicide attempt with Rob. That caused all kinds of problems for those who seriously need support. New posters are doubted for quite a while (I do it, too) and usually it's when you most need to be heard. Also, there is fear with a new ex who is having mixed feelings of getting slammed when you're already down. It's just not politically correct on expremie forum to say anything positive about Big M and you know it. There are positive and negative points to everyone and by denying anything positive there are going to be a whole group of premie doubters who will get turned off and deny what you are trying to get across to them. It takes so much emotional energy just to survive when you're pulling yourself out and then getting slammed and called an idiot or not logical or whatever doesn't help, even for people who normally (not under such stress) would handle it fine and tell you where to go. People newly out are very vulnerable and need to be taken seriously and actually heard and not argued with. In addition, another reason for a password forum is that we all know premies and others read what's here and it's nice to have some privacy but speak to more than one person at once, kinda like a conference call where several can be involved. I hope you don't have a problem with this. I think if you want everyone on this forum you have to make it an open and accepting place.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:08:07 (EDT) From: Mickey Moss Email: None To: Grace Subject: Re: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum Message:

Grace: I've been trying to find someone who could point to something about Maharaji that demonstrates virtue or integrity for a long time. I think what we have here is someone who is not monumentally evil, but who just doesn't have very much going for him on the plus side. He's not as bad as Sai Baba or Da Free John. To tell the truth he's probably a relatively simple soul who somewhere in his psyche has convinced himself that even though he knows it's a con people are getting something worthwhile from the meditation. He's probably right. He selectively chooses not to look at those who have a net account of harm. Personally, I got a great deal out of his little masquerade. It's a wake up call. If not this... then, what? Something... that looks not at all 'like this.' What it isn't: a secret knowledge dispensed to the 'chosen ones' by a 'Chosen One.' What does that leave? MM

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 10:05:02 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Mickey Moss Subject: Re: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum Message:

I think what we have here is someone who is not monumentally evil, but who just doesn't have very much going for him on the plus side Wow! That's a positive way to look at it! He's not as bad as Sai Baba or Da Free John Yes, thats correct, he is a lesser fraud than some others out there, perhaps....but does that make him acceptable? To tell the truth he's probably a relatively simple soul who somewhere in his psyche has convinced himself that even though he knows it's a con people are getting something worthwhile from the meditation. He's probably right The question here is as follows. Whatever it is that people are getting by practicing the techniques, or doing meditation, are they getting that from themselves, or are they getting it from m? If the experience truly comes from within the individual, why does m seek total devotion to himself from those who would seek to be his closest followers? And M keeps on hyping up 'Knowledge' and perpetuating the same old cult with superficial changes...as something new and fresh or 'constantly evolving.' So much for the 'simple soul' theory. He selectively chooses not to look at those who have a net account of harm We know that. Its easier for him to maintain his own denial system that way. Personally, I got a great deal out of his little masquerade. It's a wake up call. If not this... then, what? Something... that looks not at all 'like this Sorry to hear this is what you're settling for, but to each his own. What it isn't: a secret knowledge dispensed to the 'chosen ones' by a 'Chosen One.' Finally right on three counts. It ain't 'secret' ...in fact its all over the net now. Nor is it 'knowledge', because knowledge really isn't something that m can give to you, nor can anyone else. And finally, yes I agree with you, Maharaji is not the 'Chosen One,' nor are his premies, 'chosen ones'. The problem is, they think they are.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 22:56:04 (EDT) From: Mickey Moss Email: ickymickey@home.com To: Joey Subject: Re: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum Message:

Joey: Yes, thats correct, he is a lesser fraud than some others out there, perhaps....but does that make him acceptable? When have I argued that he's acceptable, I mean on his terms? If the experience truly comes from within the individual, why does m seek total devotion to himself from those who would seek to be his closest followers? That's easy: Because they offer it. His lack of character is tied up in theirs. And M keeps on hyping up 'Knowledge' and perpetuating the same old cult with superficial changes...as something new and fresh or 'constantly evolving. Come now, this is a diabolical genius? Said of the statement, 'Personally, I got a great deal out of his little masquerade. It's a wake up call. If not this... then, what? Something... that looks not at all 'like this ' : Sorry to hear this is what you're settling for, but to each his own. Thanks, I appreciate the condescension. Why don't you tell me what this is? That way we'll both know what I'm settling for. And when you share your great wisdom we'll all be better off. After some observations about how premies are not the chosen ones: The problem is, they think they are. Their problem. What's ours? Or more precisely, what are we left with? It does me no harm, and him no good, to acknowledge that the legacy might not be all bad. -MM

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Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 15:02:26 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Mickey Moss Subject: Re: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum Message:

Just a few points in response to your prior post. When have I argued that he's acceptable, I mean on his terms? Thats interesting...so there are terms on which he IS acceptable? What are they? Can you tell us? Now I said to you: If the experience truly comes from within the individual, why does m seek total devotion to himself from those who would seek to be his closest followers? and you answered: That's easy: Because they offer it. His lack of character is tied up in theirs. This is where I find your denial really striking. Its as though m himself has had nothing to do with the idolatrous view that his premies have of him. As if he's had nothing to do with videos such as 'Now and Forever,' videos designed and edited by m himself to engender that 'devotional' attitude amongst his followers. He sets the stage and his premies follow suit to the best of their ability. ...Or more precisely, what are we left with? It does me no harm, and him no good, to acknowledge that the legacy might not be all bad. Well it does him plenty of good to acknowledge 'that the legacy was not all that bad.' The legacy of premie suicides, sexual abuse and cover up going on till this day, emotional and financial exploitation of his followers...with a legacy like that I'm sure m is desperately looking for those people like yourself who can find something, ANYTHING good to say about him. And its obvious in your posts, how far they have to stretch.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 20:13:08 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Grace Subject: I think that's a myth, Grace Message:

Also, there is fear with a new ex who is having mixed feelings of getting slammed when you're already down. It's just not politically correct on expremie forum to say anything positive about Big M and you know it. There are positive and negative points to everyone and by denying anything positive there are going to be a whole group of premie doubters who will get turned off and deny what you are trying to get across to them. Grace, I don't buy this. If someone gets to the point where they're actually willing to think about this cult they're there for themselves, on their own timing. Not as a favour to anyone. It's not a matter of courtesies or popularity. People newly out are very vulnerable and need to be taken seriously and actually heard and not argued with. I don't buy this either. People newly out need to have honest discussions however they unfold. If that amounts to a little argument back and forth, so be it. That's a good thing.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:07:12 (EDT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Grace Subject: 4 Message:

I agree with Grace. Forum activities are stronger in confrontation than support. That's great when we're confronting Rawatt with damning information. It's OK when we're arguing with premies. It tends to be unsupportive at times when exes are communicating with exes. It's also a male thing, as has been pointed out to me by more than one woman who participates here. These big macho fight scenes are strictly some kind of topdog scenario. The stuff about being able to say good about Rawatt is something else. Myself, meditation works for me, but it's more or less a politically incorrect agenda on the forum to discuss (altho as a guruless meditator I need more support/fellowship than I did a guru who would tell me exactly what to do). It is the most logical place to discuss. I mean, do you think I should be at a satsang because I meditate sometimes? As far as allowing for positive feedback about Rawatt, I don't really follow this. Sure, people aren't drawn in straight lines. We don't always have the same viewpoint we had yesterday. And premies turning into exes are not going to change their viewpoint about M in one gesture. BUT, isn't it about overcoming an abusive relationship? If we're going to quit him then it's because he is no good for us. And no amount of apologetic elaboration will change that fact. I also think this fact may be an indication Rawatt is a fraudulent con artist, but I can reserve that as an opinion and respect others who have more tolerance for him, as long as they don't turn the tables and try to convince me of something positive about the guy. Why shouldn't exes congregate in different ways and with different agendas. Why should the forum format be so rigid and eternal? There must be thousands and thousands of exes who have either lurked here or have considered searching out ex-premies online. The numbers would have to dwarf Miragey's own membership. We all know more people who have left than who stayed. We should be trying to rendezvous en masse rather than a maintaining a proprietary shape. It gets cliquey. When I think about the numbers and then look at the recognizable and relatively small group of contributors, I can only think that new forums and new forms of meeting and contacting have to be a good thing.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:02:27 (EDT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Grace Subject: Re: My 2 Cents on Recent Ex Forum (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 10:22:23 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Perhaps there's a 'sincerity' test Message:

You know, I was about ready to let this drop but, well, Dave, your questions are so good I can't help myself. Really, Katie, how does it work? Or is that really none of my business?

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:29:08 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: OK You Guys & a request Message:

I just e-mailed people I knew from the forum (mostly people that I'd e-mailed with myself, and some others), who'd been expressing some of the same concerns and feelings about leaving M's organizations. Then I posted about the forum and a couple of people e-mailed me for the URL. Basically, these are people who are working on 're-entry' on whatever level. I realize that this can take a long time, and I certainly haven't asked anyone how long they've been out, or whatever, as a prerequisite to taking part in the forum. I also ask the people who are CURRENTLY participating how they feel about having another person there. Anyone who is interested in participating can certainly e-mail me at mishkat@gateway.net. On a personal note, I don't have much time to deal with this today because my brother was in a bad construction accident yesterday. He is in Trauma ICU with multiple injuries and still hasn't regained consciousness, although he's had two CAT scans that came out OK. So if anyone out there reading this feels inclined to to think good thoughts, pray, visualize or whatever you do for my brother, I'd appreciate it. Thanks, Katie

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 20:24:26 (EDT) From: biff Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: OK You Guys & a request Message:

Holy shit Katie! I just read this about your brother. I will definitely send my healing thoughts out to him. Is he o.k. now? Hang in there. lots of Love, biff

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 16:36:48 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: Katie Subject: a request Message:

Dear Katie, I am so sorry to hear about your brother. I will be praying for him. Love, Susan

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 22:07:58 (EDT) From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: all Subject: To Biff, Susan, VP, Gerry & all Message:

Dear Biff, Susan, VP, Gerry, and everyone - Thanks so much for your good wishes, prayers, and kind thoughts about my little brother. He is doing a lot better today - he's partially regained consciousness and they think he will be all right. He does have numerous physical injuries (broken wrists, collapsed lungs, cracked ribs), but these can be treated, although it will probably take him a while to get back in functional shape. My sister (also an ex-premie, but doesn't post here) and I really appreciate all the posts, e-mails, and good thoughts we've received from the people on this forum on my brother's behalf. Thanks again, Katie

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 13:22:54 (EDT) From: biff Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: To Biff, Susan, VP, Gerry & all Message:

Thank god! This is very good news. He will be fine in time. He has made it. Lots of love, biff

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 19:08:28 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: biff Subject: Re: To Biff, Susan, VP, Gerry & all Message:

Thanks, biff - The last several days have been very hard for my family, but I do think my bro will be OK (he is young - probably younger than even you - snicker! and strong). BTW, my brother's wife started crying when she heard about how nice so many people on this forum had been, and that so many people were thinking about him and praying for him. So, again, I really appreciate everyone's kind thoughts and prayers or whatever - it means a lot to me. Love, Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:38:21 (EDT) From: Fred Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: OK You Guys & a request Message:

Dear Katie, I was very sorry to hear about your brother. My thoughts and prayers are with him and you. Fred

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 22:55:11 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Fred Subject: Thank you, Fred Message:

Dear Fred - Thanks very much. I'm several hundred miles away from my bro right now, but my sister is right there, and I'll let her know about your and everyone else's here good wishes. We think he will be all right - here's hoping, anyway. Appreciate it - Take care, Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:10:04 (EDT) From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: OK You Guys & a request Message:

I suppose I'd better say this Katie, my take on this is that you seem to be under the impression that there is a difference between old and new ex's. It certainly isn't my experience with myself. New ex's are the fresh life blood of the forum and we all know how they are treated with great reverence, in fact we are all over them - praising them - emailing them and so on to make sure they stay long enough to become one of us. At least that's the bottom line if we're really honest. I get the feeling that this little sub-sect is a means of hogging all the new life blood more for your own benefit. Now I could be wrong there but it just seems that way to me. It seems like a put down to the rest of us since it is obvious you are trying to control who interacts with who. Anyway, since you are all in email contact, why the need to fragment the forum in the first place?

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:57:54 (EDT) From: Gerry Email: None To: Gerry Subject: I didn't post this Message:

I don't know who did but it twasn't Gerry or gerry

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:30:57 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Re: I didn't post this Message:

I am glad to know this, Gerry (the real GERRY, that is), because it sure didn't SOUND like you.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:08:03 (EDT) From: Gerry Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: I didn't post this Message:

Katie, I really hope your brother is ok. My brother was in a car accident and in a coma for 18 days (years ago.) He recovered and is doing well. So chin up and best wishes. No need to reply.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:16:04 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Re: OK You Guys & a request Message:

Hi Gerry - I plan to bow out of the recent exes forum once it gets up and running. I'm really not trying to control anything - it is just something people asked for. I started it in the first place because I WAS in e-mail or phone contact with many of the people who are participating. I thought it would be good if they could talk to each other directly, rather than having to rely on me to give e-mail addresses and so forth. Yes, it could be turned into an e-mail list-serv - will see what people think.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:01:47 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: OK You Guys & a request Message:

What happens on these forums doesn't amount to a hill of beans compared to what happens in our real lives. Let's hope it's nothing too serious.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:09:15 (EDT) From: Helen Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hi Katie Message:

Katie I am so sorry to hear this about your brother! I certainly will be thinking of him and of you. Keep us posted, please. Love Helen

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:12:08 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Helen and Sir D Subject: Thanks, David and Helen Message:

Thanks so much, David and Helen - I'm on-line because sitting around waiting to hear, with periodic calls to the hospital, is getting to me. I appreciate the support very much. Love to you both, Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:20:33 (EDT) From: Grace Email: None To: Katie Subject: Your Brother Message:

Glad to hear the CAT scan came out good. I just saw a show on Discovery Channel on people in comas and they said they can usually (but some people fool them) tell who will come out fine by the MRIs or CAT scans. Sounds like that part is really good news. My thoughts are with you.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 17:32:34 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Grace Subject: Thanks, Grace Message:

Thanks, Grace - It's really good to hear that (given my family history). Love, Katie

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 15:04:06 (EDT) From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Thinking of Katie Message:

Dear Katie, So glad to hear that your brother is doing better today (Saturday) I'll keep both of you in my thoughts and prayers. Just sneakin' and reading a few posts. The place hasn't changed much. Hello, everyone. Now, back to my painting! VP

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 10:11:35 (EDT) From: Dr Octopus Email: planetqwerty@postmaster.co.uk To: All Subject: How to contact Message:

Having only access from a public library at the moment, how do I contact the forum administrator (to make minor alterations to my journeys entry)? P.S. The paperback book "Maypoles, Martyrs & Mayhem" published by Bloomsbury Press (authors Quentin Cooper and Paul Sullivan) is useful reading. ISBN 07475 2206 5.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:45:19 (EDT) From: Runamok Email: None To: Dr Octopus Subject: Re: How to contact Message:

If you start an internet email account with yahoo or hotmail (www.yahoo.com or etc.), you can access it from any computer. You email will be password protected rather than electronically routed to your home computer.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 05:10:04 (EDT) From: Enough Email: None To: All Subject: (MORE) M was pissed Message:

The second time I saw the boy w/steam coming out of his ears was in West Palm Beach. He had been doing a series of one night stands in the U.S. and Canada this particular summer(1989-1991?). It was to culminate with a gathering for cult members only for 2 days in Miami Beach. Mysteriously, this event was changed at the last moment to West Palm Beach. Being only a rank and file member, I never knew why. Well, on day 2, the boy is late coming out on stage. A group in the back bleachers-right hand side-began clapping in such a rhythm as to say WE WANT MAHARAJI. The BLOTU comes on stage and lectures all of us about having no right to demand of the POIFECT MASTER. Does anyone else remember this? Was this, perhaps, an ex-premie action(hope so)?

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 15:02:50 (EDT) From: biff Email: None To: Enough Subject: Re: (MORE) M was pissed Message:

I was a fairly new premie at that time and I had never seen that side of him before that day. It freaked me out! But what really surprised me was that when I raised the issue of how disturbing that outburst was to me with other premies, they really didn't feel that way themselves. They would just say something like 'yeah- he seemed angry' and smile, and on to the next thought like it was no big deal.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:12:34 (EDT) From: as I remember it Email: None To: Enough Subject: Re: (MORE) M was pissed Message:

As I remember it, there was quite a few premies taking up this chant, I was a liitle emabarressed that this was going on, but I did not want to stick out so I stood up with just about everyone else and put my hands together in the rythem of the chant. Maharaji came out and 'steamed' at end of his blistering rant he invited those that did like it to leave. I of course not wanting to stick out, waited for the lights to go low for the meditation review, and left. Security said I couldn't come back in. In my car, passing all the other cars in the parking lot, which very soon will be a traffic jam, no-one in front of me or behind, then on the road to I95, light traffic. Thinking, 'no one else, I am a bad premie?' I was pissed and upset for days, I havn't gone to many programs since, but I have. I don't watch many videos, but I do. I can't accept Maharaji going off on me, as least not in a public venue which is all that I attend. I havn't seen it since in Maharaji, though I can't say he never has 'since' I have been thinking, maybe he stopped doing this.?????? has he?

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 06:03:26 (EDT) From: Enough Email: None To: as I remember it Subject: Re: (MORE) M was pissed Message:

That was the last outburst I saw from M but as the perfect master of the timeI'm sure he reserves the right to behave any way he damn well pleases.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 07:33:11 (EDT) From: Robyn Email: None To: Enough Subject: Re: (MORE) M was pissed Message:

Dear Enough, I was long out by that time but if they weren't ex's I wonder if they are now! Love, Robyn

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:28:35 (EDT) From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: All Subject: Loaf's Journey Message:

It took a while to determine the meaning of some bizarre characters imbedded in Loaf's Journey, but I finally tracked them down to changes made in HTML 4.0. Sorry it took so long, Loaf. Thanks for sharing it with people. BTW, you mention 'the late Father Love'. Did something happen to him? Email me and let me know, or post something here.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:53:52 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Brian Subject: Schizophrenic -- Or Maybe Stage 2 Message:

'I had a good time so it's okay.' Where have I heard that before? From premies, maybe? Actually, I can recall feeling the way Loaf does, but for a relatively short period. Maharaji was okay, the organization was the pits and I just didn't need it anymore. I had grown out of it, but basically it was a phase in my life with good and bad points. It was only later, when I looked deeper, that I discovered the level of deception, greed, and the lack of concern for his followers except for their wallets, that I changed that view. I also discovered that I had actually NOT had such a good time. And that many others had it a lot worse. I couldn't be wishy-washy about it anymore. But Loaf seems kind of between stages. He is kind of negative about Maharaji, actually, and although he says he had a good time, which I guess is paramount to him, he wants aspirants to be put off from Maharaji. Hmmm... Does anyone else notice an internal inconsistency here?

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 17:44:53 (EDT) From: barking Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: Schizophrenic -- Or Maybe Stage 2 Message:

Your right JW, it takes a while to be able to fully wipe off the effect and see it as it is. People forget that they would have evolved without the rawat influence and they would have come out even better without thinking m was god and following the lords demands. Someone who exclusively evolves with only m as an influence ends up a mess like david smith. Any redeaming qualities premies had were picked up elsewhere in thier life or are natural inborn thing. It took me a while on the forum till I saw that. But loaf IS funny and smart!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:35:50 (EDT) From: barking mad Email: None To: Brian Subject: Loaf is funny and smart (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:09:59 (EDT) From: Raving woofter Email: None To: barking mad Subject: Re: Loaf is funny and smart (nt) Message:

Ditto

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:20:40 (EDT) From: On Topic Email: None To: Loaf & All Subject: Orange Loaf Message:

Dear Loaf, I really enjoyed your journey until I got to the last paragraph and then I thought how sad if you keep putting the aspirants off they won't experience the 'orange' that you did for the last 16 years or so. Regards, On Topic

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:42:05 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Anth Subject: Anth-Read your email! nt Message:

****

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 15:42:09 (EDT) From: Lee Email: None To: All Subject: Singing the praises of Forum IV Message:

Dear everyone Am I the only one or has anyone else detected some strange vibes on the forum for the last while? It's been making me feel very strange - confused. I don't need to name any names really - there have been extremes of anger and then contrition. And the 'split' made by the recent exes forum. I've noticed that if you've been reading and posting on the forum for a while, you start feeling it. It's like a living entity. You can feel love being expressed and hate too. It's created by all of our individual energies and it's a stabilising (but confusing!) force in my life now. I also just wanted to say something about the recent exes forum - I think it's a good idea simply because recent exes are more likely to be vulnerable, more sensitive, and confused. For me, it's not the exes on Forum IV that are a problem - it's the premies. I don't feel strong enough to argue with a premie - and I don't want to. I don't understand why they come here - just to kick people when they're down? You 'old' ex premies are absolutely great by me. Anyway, we're all about the same age aren't we - give or take ten years I reckon! Peace to us all Lee

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:35:37 (EDT) From: martha Email: not yet To: Lee Subject: Re: Singing the praises of Forum IV Message:

i have read and learned a lot since finding this forum. Being a tolerant liberal by nature, albeit a bit wooly, I find it hard to condem outright:its just Im so bloody angry that this jumped up little con artist is screwing up my friends life, ergo. the lives of his family (they are worth a bit.. not that m would care.ha ha. ) and those (3 of us left now) friends that dont stick their fingers in their ears. I intend to fight. Fight the only way I know to stop him. Money. There are official bodies to whom one can complain in most of eu & us and they will stop charitable status if enough of us speak out. Please lets stop talking amongst ourselves and do something grown-up to stop this parasite of our fears and natural confusions.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 18:46:35 (EDT) From: martha Email: not yet To: everyone Subject: Re: Singing the praises of Forum IV Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:32:39 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Lee Subject: Lee - You are not down. Message:

-- Lee, If you like Knowledge fine. If you don't like Knowledge fine. End of argument. This is a forum, and opposing views are allowed here. Peace to us all. DD

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 05:05:10 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Deputy Dog Subject: Cherish that precious opportunity to come together... Message:

This is a forum, and opposing views are allowed here. I hope you appreciate that freedom of expression, DD. You won't find it on any EV-endorsed website, nor at any event or function hosted by the Lard's representatives.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:06:04 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Message received, Nigel (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:13:22 (EDT) From: Shp Email: None To: Lee Subject: Reply to Lee Message:

Dear Lee, I never came here to kick anyone, just want you to know that. I am sorry if anyone else did. It serves no purpose and creates more trouble. Shp PS To anyone who wants to rip me a new orifice for this post, why don't you try decaf and take a few deep breaths instead? Not paranoid, just seasoned.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:17:06 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: Shp Subject: Re: Reply to Lee Message:

Hi Shipper, I dont think I caught you outright kicking anyone, but in the past I have been a reader of your typeing punches that you didnt even think were punches! Some of them were body blows! That might sound nuts but consider the crushing blow it was to find life in tatters and faith crushed. Reminds me of the earthquake in Turkey. Looking around for living remnants in the rubble to put together a new faith in life and a forward momentum with enthusiasm again. Look at Cynthia, what a horror show she went through as a child and then she found her lord and saviour and tried to live for him and her hopes were dashed on the rocks of reality and those two men in her life shattered her heart and now by her admission she could have a whole forum herself just using her own various selves! I have actually heard of that happening to others that went through severe childhood trauma also. I thought no one was going to top Susan and G mom for abuse stories. Look, I have to admit that although I didnt believe it, others in my life had accused me of having certain behaviours and I thought they were hallucinating. Because thats not how I am! Thats not what I'm like! How do they get those crazy ideas? Yet, jeepers! My premie self image, all goodness and light, or whatever, was riding on top of a whole lot of distorted out of balance behaviours. Perhaps as good hearted as I have to admit you are.......

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 11:33:48 (EDT) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: bb Subject: Re: Your Post Message:

Dear bb, You hit the nail on the head in your reference to me. When I came to m, I was starving for love, and there was this benevolant father figure (even though he was younger than me). Detaching myself from my family before and after being in the ashram was a great comfort for me. So I right now I'm feeling a lot of betrayal by the m. I do have a forum of my own. It's called 'internal dialogue journaling.' I was taught how to do it at a private psych hospital where I spent 3 intensive weeks several years ago. How it works is that I start writing in my journal (handwriting) and my inside parts talk to me (in writing-many different handwriting styles--it's really wierd). I have volumes of journaling. This is a technique (hate that word) that is very beneficial to MPDs and helps me to communicate without having to actually 'switch.' Most of my parts are now melding togethe with me. I only have a couple of parts that try to what's called 'take executive control' over my body (or switch). The strongest one is Sydney, because that part of me has no trust for anyone. She actually propelled me out of the ashram. So my job is to keep my inside system in a cooperating mode. The reason that I came out and told that I am MPD is because my particular disorder is receiving a lot of backlash from many psychiatrists and other mental health care providers. Some don't believe the disorder exists. I can't even find a psychiatrist right now who will treat me. (I have a great therapist, but need a psychiatrist because of certain psychotropic medications I require). The last thing I would ever expect is for anyone posting here to try to figure out if one of my alters is posting. I am Cynthia, the core person, the core soul, and it's my responsibility to stay Cynthia. If a switch occurs, I will do my best to not post if/while an alter emerges. It's simply not appropriate. That's my personal deprogramming program. Enough about my psychological inner workings! Be well.....living well IS the best revenge. Love, Cynthia

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 15:55:29 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: Re: Your Post Message:

Hi Cynthia, I think you would have better luck finding a talented psychiatrist skilled in that field if you were living in more of a city. There are a wealth of different kinds of therapists in your neck of the woods but your right, it takes a real skill to help and save someone with the abuse background that is severe. It is good that you have done as well as you have. I dont suppose you have a music tape from the old band huh? I saw Louie Colon of all people. He was accused in the hartford courant of being the louie colon that was wanted on sexual abuse charges. Turned out it was a different L.C.! So he went on tv to say 'it aint me!' He lives in my town now and we talked and he couldnt help but blabber partial satsang when he saw me. I had to voice my complaints but he doesnt see premies enough to even deal with the past but just forget it in the rush of his life. When he stops and looks back, it is all this unresoved mush of well, you know the dilemma. I am glad I had the forum here, I was so entangled I would have had no chance doing anything on my own about getting clear about this. As it was it took me a lot and I thank the forum people for allowing me to type without tossing me out. I would post without even needing anyone else in the forum! I just had to post and unravel. Too bad for the unfortunate reader who stumbled on my forum 'journal' ! Shp is havin a hell of a time finding a not too destructive way around his faith. I actually do understand but quite often he just caves in and stands there as the premie and it is more than annoying. But, we all have baggage from this intense programming and it aint a breeze to move on as Syd mentioned above. You might want to respond to him, I will also. Ladies first!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:44:17 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: Lee Subject: Singing the praises of Forum IV Message:

Hi Lee, Having been here since about 6 months after the beginnings of this, it always has been a partial warzone. It is always a good idea to know who to avoid! Luckily over the years some here have had the stomach to engage satsang when it reared it's head. Many things get said here that seem really insulting to me. Those things are statements by present premies. Go figure, they are in the millenium by now and the golden age is here for them...Remember? -peace on earth for those that want it- and here they are attacking us for trying to recover from the domination. The great debates that rage about other issues are interesting and not insulting although some like thier debates without passion and others love to be passionate about thier views. I prefer to view it as passion rather than antagonism, but it aint hard to steer clear of things when you arent in those kind of moods. I read a lot without chimeing in but I find it like having 7 in the house here...everyone has many sides and we are all in flux (changable) a lot. Lee, it is also possible that sometimes the 'premie' is an x having 'fun', stirring the pot.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 15:10:40 (EDT) From: Know It All Email: None To: All Subject: Party Time at the Residence Message:

It's Marolyn's 50th birthday! A rather large event is being held at the palace in Malibu. 300 people are expected. Do you think there will be a group meditation? More like group medication! Send your gratitude to your local homeless shelter or soup kitchen. Know It All

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 15:26:12 (EDT) From: Secret Agent Man Email: None To: Know It All Subject: Party at the Residence and We Are Going to Crash It! Message:

Alright! PARTY! Exactly when is the party? I'm going to crash it.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 15:33:43 (EDT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Secret Agent Man Subject: Re: Party at the Residence and We Are Going to Crash It! Message:

SAM: It is this weekend. I don't know what day yet, but when I find out, I will let you know offline. Keep your shoe phone free! Follow the catering trucks up from PCH. KIA

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:41:12 (EDT) From: S.A.M. Email: None To: Know It All Subject: Excellent idea - video cam at Trancas Market Message:

My unnamed co-conspirator from Laguna Beach emailed me and said that he will bring his Digital Video Cam up and we can get it all down on 'film' at the Trancas Market. Can't wait!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:35:24 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: S.A.M. Subject: Marolyn, Shmarolyn...thats not why he's having a party!! Message:

Hey S.A.M, Sorry to disappoint you, but having been at a party at the residence, the 'amtext' party in 1996, I have a feeling you may be developing a false picture of what's going to happen. First out of town guests will be staying at an EV or m approved hotel, so that m can make a few bucks off the 'group rate' deal. Then they'll all be heading up to the residence in vans leaving from a central location(probably the hotel). By having people come up in vans instead of their cars, m can cut down on an endless and unmanageable procession of up to 100 cars to maybe 30 vans, all timed to arrive precisely on time for the party to begin (keep in mind, MJ hates it when people show up early, which is what pwkies coming on their own would likely do) So it will be a very well managed procession of vans which means, no stopping anywhere, even Trancas market...there's only one stop and thats the residence. Of course, these 300 people are m's top premie money pals...the ones who account for most of the bacon that comes his way. I mean why would he invite anyone else to a party at his home? Use it as an occasion to rev up the troops and bring in some quick cash! Alot of these top money people wouldn't dare show up at such a party without bringing with them a rather significant 'gift' of appreciation of their own...the gift of cold cash. And after all the expenses are accounted for, m walks away with a minimum of $100,000 if not more for throwing the party. Having been there and done that...thats my take on the party. Ya ya ,its Marolyn 50th birthday...Mazel Tov!! Its time to to fill the Rawat PIGGY bank...and thats it!!!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:42:50 (EDT) From: Enough Email: None To: Joey Subject: Re: Marolyn, Shmarolyn...thats not why he's having a party!! Message:

From what you are saying, I'm gathering that there are big money people who are just plain stupid like I was but I was only forking over $800/yr. I had always viewed these big money people as co-conspirators.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 22:03:48 (EDT) From: Joey Email: None To: Enough Subject: Re: Marolyn, Shmarolyn...thats not why he's having a party!! Message:

Enough, My bet is that out of the 300 people invited to the party, 150 are from Amtext-the Amtext premies. Now out of these you have a select few, perhaps 25 or so who are the well-to do's or Amtext big boys...and they wouldn't show up at a party like this and give less than $1,000 a pop. I mean as Raja ji used to say, 'Quality costs and absolute quality costs absolutely.'(please excuse my bit of sarcasm here...as Katie has pointed out to me...it doesn't always come across, in this electronic form of communication:) The other 150 would consist mainly of premies involved in other businesses that are turning over significant 'contributions' to m, and of course individuals who are his top financial contributors either to EV and/or m himself personally. I believe we all viewed ouselves as 'co conspirators' at one time. But then when the shit hit the fan and our dream began to shatter, at least for myself, its become clear that most of us were victims and a few were accomplices. That being said, today's accomplice can easily become tomorrow's victim. And a number of these 'pams' who are on the invite list for this party, won't make it the next time around. C'est la vie...I just hope a few of them join us here and tell us their story...even one or two of these guys would be very interesting to have on the forum.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 17:09:50 (EDT) From: KIA Email: None To: S.A.M. Subject: Another excellent idea Message:

SAM: The video cam is a great idea. I'm making a big sandwich board type poster to leave on a car at the Trancas Market saying: WHAT ABOUT THE JAGDEO SEX ABUSE ALLEGATIONS, MR. PREM PAL RAWAT? WWW.EX-PREMIE.ORG I've also got a friend who flies a bi-plane in southern California with advertising messages trailing behind it. I've been trying to reach her, but no luck yet. More on this offline. KIA

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 04:26:34 (EDT) From: S.A.M. Email: None To: KIA Subject: YES! Was thinking the same thing! Message:

Yes, a sign that says something about Jagdeo to throw a little reality into their party. And maybe catch the faces of shocked PAMs on the DV as they slide by in those vans. Too bad Jagdeo didn't wear the old saffrons as we could dress somebody up to look like him. Ah, maybe I'll just find an some old guy on the streets and dress him up. Actually, at the Trancas Market the Mexicans hang out there looking for day jobs. I'll bring an old tweed jacket, a white shirt, and some glasses that have lost their lenses. Yes, the plane with the banner would be cool. We paid for such on commencement day at our university. The banner asked that the university divest its investments in South Africa due to apartheid. They delayed the commencement for 15 minutes because our banner was signed up to fly over during the Star Spangled Banner or the school fight song. We're going to head up to Trancas Market on Saturday early since we don't yet have the exact day nailed down. If it's not on Saturday we'll camp up the road at Leo Carrillo and eat at Neptune's Net. If you can make it and don't want to camp you could find a cheap motel in Oxnard.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:55:01 (EDT) From: KIA Email: None To: S.A.M. Subject: No camping for this ex Message:

I'm booked into the Century Plaza Hotel, starting Friday night, right across the street from the law offices of a certain well known premie attorney. You can come by and hang out on Saturday night. KIA

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:14:42 (EDT) From: S.A.M. Email: None To: KIA Subject: No Century City for us surfers! (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:01:01 (EDT) From: Ira Email: None To: KIA Subject: Re: Another excellent idea Message:

I highly recommend about 30 or so ex-premies lining up along the road mooning each car as they drive up to 'the residence' for the party. I also recommend sending an invitation to Satpal and to Bohle Ji, as a goodwill gesture.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 00:10:48 (EDT) From: gone Email: None To: Ira Subject: Re: Another excellent idea Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 10:07:23 (EDT) From: glad Email: None To: gone Subject: good riddance, 'carrot toss' Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:51:22 (EDT) From: Cynthia G. Email: cynthia@madriver.com To: All Subject: Boy Did I Get Triggered Message:

Hello All, I had to take a day off from this site yesterday because I really did get triggered as, Monmot said. Part of my posts were by an alter (the all-caps) which is inside of me (a 19 yr.old girl named Sydney) who is the part of me that is confrontational, fearless, my rescuer, but has a very black and white mentality. But it is my responsibility to keep my inside system in control and I don't use my MPD as an excuse for any rude or offending remarks like 'get a life,' which I'm really sorry I said. So, I have the responsibility to explain the reasons for going off the way I did. This is part of my own healing process in learning how to be an adult and be in full control. I think it was oversaturation for me: hearing a lot of negative things about m when I've only recently (like last week) both got on the internet and exited the cult. I spent every day last week reading this site. I feel like my foundation re: M has crumbled and I feel disgusted and sick about what he did to me and everyone he has brainwashed. By exited, I mean came to realization that I am/will be free from m and the brainwashing. So, I spent yesterday nurturing myself, crying, ripping up a few pictures of m (that was actually a lot of fun), and feeling embarrassed about tearing into to everyone about the atmosphere on this site. But I'm back today, and plan to continue to post of both sites. At this point, because my central nervous system is so fragile, I will have to ration my visits here. It's true, I have many other issues to deal with, most currently, my 76 year old mother who has been diagnosed with Alzheimers disease (and becoming loopier by the day) and of course, exiting the cult. Shit. Since reading posts about the other forum and other posts here, I now understand the value of conversing with older exes and hearing your experiences, as well as maintaining the history of the cult, particularly for those of us who have memory gaps. I also think the existence of this website is really pissing maharji off big time and I like the idea that he can't control what happens here. He can't control us here!! Mea Culpa, everyone, I'm new to all of this. Today, I'm going to try to get my new printer to print, play computer games, and talk a nice long walk and sit by the river--it's a warm 50 degrees here--we've already had a few killing frosts. I am so fortunate to live in a place that is so naturally beautiful. The leaves are falling by the millions, but there is still so much beauty in watching the season change. The woodstove has been lit! Jim, I love to laugh and I enjoy the humor here--I just don't want to get hurt, I hope you understand. When you get to know me, I think you'll discover that I can be quite witty, if I do say so.. Be well, everyone, Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 14:25:20 (EDT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: Re: Boy Did I Get Triggered Message:

Cynthia: Glad you returned. I'm curious--do you know when an alter has taken over? Or cognizant of it only afterward? If this is too intrusive a question, please don't answer it, it's just that I am fascinated by the various coping mechanisms we develop in order to survive. I could teach a course on hypervigilance myself. My husband, who completely understands it, has a good laugh at all the hypervigilant permutations I come up with (sitting on ends of rows, checking for exits, avoidance of underground parking lots, etc.). And, believe me, I am prepared for an earthquake, so it does have its upside. Take care and, although it may be off-topic, you should feel free to speak about your mother if it helps. I think a fair amount of people on this site have dealt with their parents' illnesses and passing. Do miss the New England Fall--sounds idyllic.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 13:05:54 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: Re: Boy Did I Get Triggered Message:

Dear Cynthia - Thanks very much for saying the above (and it was very well said, I might add) - I think it shows a lot of grace (if I can use that word!) and courage. I actually hadn't realized that you had exited so very recently - that's hard to go through. I am sorry to hear about your mom - I hope you have some support in dealing with her - especially siblings, if you have any. That's a tough situation - I went through it with my grandmother. My mom was an only child, so depended a lot on her own children (me and my sibs) to help her. Take care, and hope to hear more from you - Love, Katie

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 13:03:57 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: No sweat, Cynthia Message:

You sound like a very interesting person. And I like Sydney's spunky attitiude. (Tell her to keep posting in caps so we'll know it's her.) Best to you, Gerry/gerry

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:42:28 (EDT) From: Just Curious Email: None To: All Subject: 'Holy Family' Pictures? Message:

Are there available via internet reasonably current family photos of Rawat, Marilyn, Premlata et al? I'm wondering what they look like these days... but refuse to pay for the 'privilege' of course!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 16:13:12 (EDT) From: BarnBurner Email: None To: Just Curious Subject: Re: 'Holy Family' Pictures? Message:

Interesting about Maharaji and his kids is the apparent fallout and return to grace by Hansi. I'm not exactly sure of the facts, but starting in the early 90's or even before there was a vacant front row seat that was obviously for Hansi as the rest of the family (don't know about the youngest boy) would always walk in just before Maharaji spoke. At the last Long Beach program I was at in 1997? Hansi was present and accounted for. It is interesting to see that it might not be all blissful smiles and happiness within Maharaji's own family. It is either the divine lila that premies need to look through or it says that Maharaji and his Knowledge provides little value in real life. After all, Maharaji should be some kind of example, shouldn't he?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 13:00:46 (EDT) From: Cynthia G. Email: Cynthia@madriver.com To: Just Curious Subject: Re: 'Holy Family' Pictures? Message:

Dear Just Curious: I heard that m's family at some point asked him not to refer to them in his satsang. I have seen no pictures of Marolyn, and only his daughters participate in his Mission. They're all growed up and the only time they appear is at formal m events. As far as his sons are concerned, NOBODY, knows where or what their up to. In fact, a lot of old premies talk and wonder about the boys. You won't find any current pictures of his family on the net unless he posts them. Interesting tidbit: I was watching a video a couple of months ago (don't remember which one) when m was talking about 'a friend's son' who was having problems because he was starting fires. M said that he thought about how to deal with the situation (which led me to believe that he was talking about his own son) and said that he , too, used to start fires when he was a boy. So m thought the best solution to this would be to put the kid in a safe place and teach him how to 'safely' play with fire. Wierd. Wierd. Wierd. Also, a few months ago, m revealed k to Premlata (waddie) and he said that it reminded him of when he received k from shri m. That's all for now......Cynthia

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 14:13:27 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Cynthia G. Subject: Children lighting fires Message:

Cynthia: Thanks for that tidbit about some 'kid' repeatedly lighting fires. When children light fires or torture animals, it is a sign of the beginnings of potentially serious mental dysfunction. These behaviors also are a clue that there may be physical and/or other types of abuse being perpetrated on the child. This information is well documented in the literature about child maltreatment and development. Thanks again, Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:48:26 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Children lighting fires Message:

Yup, the immediate clinical response to a child that likes to light fires is to look for abuse. Dont ask me why, I didnt hear why, but that is true.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:16:43 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Self Mutilation Message:

Thanks Marianne. I was reading about self mutiliation among teenagers, which is apparently a significant problem. I guess the theory is it is a result of child abuse. The teenager gets some feeling of comfort by being able to 'control' the abuse and pain. It's very sad and a real red flag.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:44:15 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: Self Mutilation Message:

Joe: Absolutely! The evidentiary hearing I did earlier this year in one of my death penalty habeas cases had self mutilation issues at the heart of the case. These acts are a cry for help.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:52:37 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Self Mutilation - a story Message:

A comment about self-mutiliation - I agree that it's a cry for help, and an attempt to deal with severe emotional pain, but may not ALWAYS be a product of abuse. For example, I have a close friend whose daughter 'cuts' herself. This girl was NOT raised in an physically or sexually abusive environment, and as we all know, mental abuse can be relative, depending on the sensitivity of the person. My friend is doing everything she can for her daughter: checking her in to a psychiatric hospital, getting her in a group, so on and so forth. The whole situation has been very hard on my friend anyway, so I'd hate for her to be labeled as an abuser when she is not. (By the way, her daughter is getting better - good news.)

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 16:05:26 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: Self Mutilation - a story Message:

Katie: I was very careful to say that self mutilation is probably the result of abuse. I did not say it always was the reason for it. I am glad that you pointed out the distinction and I agree with you completely on it. I am sorry if I gave a different impression. Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:03:04 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Self Mutilation Message:

Marianne, Do you think meditation would help these people? Not necessarily K, but TM, zazen, vipassana, or prayer, any kind of spiritual practise. DD

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 00:56:01 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Self Mutilation Message:

DD: People who mutilate themselves suffer from very serious mental disorders which, in all likelihood, began when they were young children. They were probably abused either physically, emotionally, or sexually -- or all 3. Dissociation and mutilation became their refuge from abuse. These people need expert psychiatric help to resolve the pain that they have experienced. Of course, I am not a mental health professional -- but I do confront these issues every day in my representation of people on death row as I fight to obtain new trials for them. I have to know about these issues and facts in order to fight on my clients' behalf. Obviously, some of these folks can be so seriously disturbed that they end up killing people if their instability goes unrecognized and untreated. I really do not think that meditation is the answer for these people. I was helped by meditation, DD. The help these folks need far exceeds anything that meditation has to offer. In fact, I think that pressing them to rely on meditation could be disastrous. This is why-- The younger sister of someone with whom I lived in the ashram moved in after we moved out. She was in her late teens. She seemed to be ok but was worried that she was not really experiencing anything in meditation. She worried that she was not devoted enough. This young woman sat down to meditate in the ashram and refused to come out. She had a total psychotic break. None of the other premies had grasped what was happening to her. This woman spent years in a psych hospital as a result. I do not blame M or DLM/EV for what happened to her. I do blame the premies she lived with to some extent. This woman came to the ashram with mental problems, but satsang made her believe that meditation would heal her. That is the danger of believing that meditation is the answer, DD. I do not think this is an isolated incident. People with serious mental problems need medical help before they need anything else. To suggest otherwise is to do a disservice to another human being. I hope I have answered your question suitably and that you can understand why I make these comments. Marianne

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:50:06 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: The Cult's Fault Message:

I think the blame Maharaji and his cult has to take for some of the more outrageous things that happened to people, like your friend, and my ashram roommate who tried to castrate himself, was the cult philosphy, repeated by Guru Maharaj Ji over and over, was that ALL you needed for any problem was satsang, service and meditation. As a result, many things were repressed, ignored, and people didn't get help when they really needed it. There was a discounting of the self. A sense of guilt for 'indulging' in problems of 'the mind.' It was pretty damaging, especially for people who had fairly serious problems, and there were quite a few of them.

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Date: Tues, Oct 26, 1999 at 10:06:18 (EDT) From: kmdarling Email: unlimited@aol.com To: JW Subject: Re: The Cult's Fault and subtle abuse Message:

This is a very interesting discussion! I've had some experience with mutilation by teenage clients. It was usually from child-abuse. But sometimes it was something much more subtle––the kid acting out some kind of unacknowledged stuff in the family. I've been in contact with it recently, also via the teenage daughter of some friends. The parents are just divorcing acrimoniously, and there was an undercurrent of bad vibes for years. Now things are calmed down a bit, but the daughter is doing all kinds of self-destructive stuff. The parents don’t want anything to do with each other, and my impression is that the kid is unconsciously trying to force them to deal with their issues by making them united in concern. In my own journey through incredible weird mental and emotional states in the late stages of premie-dom and afterwards, I found that some of the childhood stuff that was bothering me through reiteration was very subtle stuff that you could hardly have seen if you were a fly on the wall. For example, I was emotionally incested, (in other words, it was mostly just by “vibes”) yet I had a lot of the symptoms of clients I've had who were physically incested. I have a very sensitive nervous system. Do you? When it comes to the abuse we experienced in the cult, it’s possible that some of us have a hard time validating our own experience because nothing really heavy happened externally. I just want to offer validation that even subtle dishonesties or unkindnesses between people can be very wounding. For my own part, I have been realizing recently, partly by reading the history section on this website, how incredibly hurtful and damaging MJ’s reopening of the ashrams was to me. I was happily married and feeling good, having left when he closed the ashrams the first time (we were both at IHQ and basically got invited to leave). When he revved up the devotion and started getting really heavy about moving in the ashram being the only way, etc., I REALLY SUFFERED! I started getting ill, with strange symptoms that are now bunched together by the buzzword “chronic fatigue syndrome.” This had multiple causes (including burning out travelling around doing service trying to be devoted enough, and my genetic tendencies, and other things) but one major cause for me was the unresolvable stress I experienced from the pressure from MJ. Love, Kathryn Darling

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 23:52:05 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Self Mutilation Message:

my guess would be that the family members could pay attention and interest in the child. Try and see what bothers the child even if the kid cant articulate it himself. loving without judgement and playing and shareing in the kids interests couldnt hurt.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 11:21:56 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Blackdog and history Message:

In a thread below, Blackdog replied to Katie as follows: Sounds like he was a pretty screwed up type all round. A PAM eh? That's a new one - mind you, I didn't know what a 'premie' was until I came here and discovered I was one! I thought I was just someone who had knowledge. Great, now I've got a label. Sorry to hear you had a rough time as a 'premie' hope you are happy now. I think if I didn't experience anything when I practised, I'd probably given up by now (3 years) but it seems to work for me, so what can I say? And so we see the mindset of the modern Person With Knowledge ('PWk'): corn-fed and superficial. Blackdog, my friend, you did not acquire this attitude by accident, let me tell you. Where did you get it? From your cult leader, that's where. You know, the guy who's pathetic web site throws out a couple of half-hearted paragraphs about 'former masters' with the caveat that this 'ain't no history lesson or nothing.' Why? Because history, my friend, would crush your guru like a daisy. Any premie (sorry, PWK) who truly investigates or considers how M got from there to here is necessarily confronted with such a silly story of superstition, greed and nonsense that threatens sustained cult membership. So instead they swim in shallow waters. But it wasn't always like that. Premies used to pride themselves on this whole 'seeker of truth' shit. Oh well, times change, I guess.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 08:18:40 (EDT) From: Fido Email: None To: All Subject: Get Off.... Message:

my land and go piss somewhere else,

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 08:52:27 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: What are YOU doing here? Forum Administrator? Message:

I thought you were banned. Dear FA: Can it be that Cat gets banned one week and is back the next? I hope not. That would be a really ineffective way to deter any undesirable conduct here. May I remind you that this asshole has spent half a year doing nothing but snarl and piss at us. Moreover, he's broken the only rules that exist here -- no threats or spam -- and has done so recently and wilfully. What happened?

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:00:40 (EDT) From: Blackdog Email: None To: Jim Subject: We used to slap kids who always ran crying to 'teacher' Message:

.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 12:21:19 (EDT) From: Blackdog Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Re: We used to slap kids who always ran crying to 'teacher' Message:

Must be a Chelsea supporter, right?

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 06:23:15 (EDT) From: Anon Email: None To: Catweasel Subject: Re: You sound like a right tosser, so I'm not going to waste my breath Message:

Dear Sam Haven't you got anything better to say. You know, constructive? Or must it always be destructive? Anon

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 12:55:09 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Blackdog's Original Question Message:

Just to clarify, a couple posts before the one that Jim reposted, I asked Blackdog why he was on Forum IV. He replied: I'm just idly curious, trying to figure out what went wrong with your experiences of Knowledge. and then went on to ask a few questions about who 'Rob' was. I told him what happened with my own experience of knowledge, and also a bit about what I know about 'Rob' (which is where the word 'PAM' came into the conversation). BTW, Blackdog, we made the term 'PAM' up on the forum because a few premies mentioned the phrase 'people around Maharaji. 'Premie' was used constantly until a few years ago - I'm not sure exactly when it was replaced with 'PWK'. Actually, I thought Blackdog's question and answer were pretty civil. And it is a reasonable question.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 13:23:26 (EDT) From: Way Email: None To: Katie Subject: Re: Blackdog's Original Question Message:

Blackdog, Are you still here? If so, your imput and perspective would be very interesting since you have been involved with Knowledge only recently. Can you share what you think of Rawat, why you received Knowledge, and what you hope to get out of practicing it. I can understand if you do not want to answer these questions here, but I really am curious how the newly-initiated PWK's perceive the world of Knowledge. BTW, you are definitely not a premie, so relax about that label.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:05:56 (EDT) From: Blackdog Email: None To: Way Subject: Re: Blackdog's Original Question Message:

Why do I feel like fresh meat?:) So I'm not a premie I'm a PWK? I thought I was just a bus driver and part-time student! OK I'll answer your questions, but if it falls into a slanging match you're on your own. Mentioning no names, Jim. What I think of Maharaji, or Rawat (not even Mr Rawat - its that bad eh?): I think he's intelligent, funny, compassionate and a good teacher. Why I received knowledge: One of my mates got it and I saw big changes in him, from being a nervous unsettled type into being more calm and sure of himself and life. I decided I could use some of that so I checked it out. Seemed pretty straight-forward, didn't cost anything so I thought why not? So far I've no complaints, everything promised was delivered on. What I hope to get out of it: More of the same, I suppose. I'm not what you'd call spiritual really, so I don't go for some of the airy-fairy poofter stuff I hear, but I can see practical benefits possible. That good enough? Not really sure what your after.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:32:20 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Blackdog Subject: Interesting Message:

I appreciate what you are saying. If I understand you, do you basically see knowledge as a kind of meditation practice, with Maharaji the 'meditation teacher?' Is that basically what it is to you? I'm sure you have picked up for many of us oldsters that that isn't at all the way Maharaji presented himself and knowlege in the past. Actually, I'm quite sure if it was presented to me then the way it is presented now, I would never have gotten involved when I did. For me, personally, that implies a high degree of misrepresentation on his part, something that he has never explained since he 'corrected' his ways, I mean since he 'evolved.' I'm sure you have also noticed that the premies (PWKs) from the 70s have a much more devotional attitude towards Maharaji than you do. I'm also curious. Prior to finding this website, were you aware of Maharaji's past? Were you aware of his Lord of the Universe period, the ashrams, the holy family, the demand he had for total dedication and surrender from his followers? Was any of that mentioned in the aspirant program? Did they tell you about darshan (where the premies line up and kiss his feet)? Are you aware that he still does it? Would you like to to it? Thanks for taking the time to respond.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:14:35 (EDT) From: Blackdog Email: None To: JW Subject: Bloody hell another one! Message:

That last paragraph of yours, I'd swear you was the old bill. Feel like I've been arrested on sus. Is it basically a meditation practice for me: Right now, yes if you want to call it that, but I dont go wearing flowers and floating around in a dress like my mates down the depot think. I suspect there's a lot more to it, like I get glimpses of something pretty strong when I'm really doing well and have got the old noggin to belt up for a while, but I always end up backing off because I'm not sure I'm ready for that, whatever that is. Premies from the 70's: Yes I 've seen a few pictures and stuff. Bloody fairies, but that was the 70's wasn't it - all Love and Peace etc. You lost me a bit on the last part. I know it all came over from India, so I suppose its inevitable a bit of curry got dropped in the beef stew, so to speak, but I don't know if you're right about all that Lord stuff. Would I like to kiss his feet? No thanks, its bad enough my inspector wanting me to kiss his arse! Did you ever do that? No wonder you dropped out if thats what you had to do.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:17:38 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Blackdog Subject: Another What? Message:

Another bloody one what? Perhaps I need a translation. I went to school in Devon for a year, but maybe I'll lost the ability to translate. Why would they think you would want to wear flowers and a dress? Did you/have you tried any other forms of meditation before you tried this one? Transendental meditation perhaps? Buddhist meditation, etc. Well, I don't think the 70s was any more conducive to the messiah being on the planet than the 90s. But that was the way Maharaji presented himself then. People didn't just make that up you know. He did hold himself out as god and he did demand total dedication and surrender from his followers. I guess I was asking what you know about that. That wasn't just 'something from India.' He was quite Americanized by that point. And he did it well into the 80s. So, if you were at Amaroo, in 1997, when Maharaji had a darshan line, would you have opted out?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 18:55:42 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Blackdog Subject: Nollidge Rules! Message:

OK Blackdog, What do you mean when you say it 'works?' It helps you be calm? And the new 'rules' are: ' give it a chance; don't tell anyone the techniques; keep in touch.' Why? Why keep it secret if it's so beneficial? Why not put the techniques on the web in the public domain? (which they are anyway) And why should you have to keep in touch if it's just about being calm and enjoying life. One more question, please. Do you think this was a cult at one time but now it isn't?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 19:54:46 (EDT) From: Blackdog Email: None To: gerry Subject: You taking the piss? Message:

Good job I'm on the late shift tomorrow. I got a feeling there'll be no end to these questions, but I'm up for a few more. What I mean when I say it works, helps me be calm: Yes, in a nutshell. Its nice when that nagging voice in my head finally shuts up - its worse than the wife's mother on a bad day - I feel a lot of relief and stuff. The rules: not a lot to ask, I don't think. Beats a lot of religions I can think of. Keeping it secret: I don't see how not blabbing the techniques to someone is keeping Knowledge secret from them. They can still get it, just like I did. I didn't know they were on the web, but I suppose everything else is so why not them? I think its good the way its done, for me at any rate, because I needed the time it took to absorb a new way of looking at things, so reading them on a web page I probably wouldn't have give it a fair crack. Why should you have to keep in touch: well its like anything else, isnt it, you need to keep getting refreshers or you slip into bad habits or get lazy. Like I drive a bus, and I do improver training twice a year - skid pans and so on, to keep sharp. Already I seen the tendency to get lazy - skip a day or two and so on and going to events and getting videos gives me a kick up the arse when I need it. Do you think this was a cult: I'm always getting stick like that in the depot canteen, you think your rough on Maharaji, you should hear some of these drivers and mechanics when they get going. I'll not lie, I hear stuff and I read stuff here, so I've got an impression of what it must have been like years ago. Looking at it then cold from the outside, I suppose I would agree with you, and I doubt if I'd have touched it with a barge pole. But I'm here now, not then, and I wouldn't honestly say I was in a cult, its got none of the things I myself would associate with a cult, least as I understand them. How or when it changed I have no idea, but I'm glad it did, if thats not too selfish sounding.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 08:58:49 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Blackdog Subject: Bingo! Message:

Keeping it secret: I don't see how not blabbing the techniques to someone is keeping Knowledge secret from them. They can still get it, just like I did. I didn't know they were on the web, but I suppose everything else is so why not them? I think its good the way its done, for me at any rate, because I needed the time it took to absorb a new way of looking at things, so reading them on a web page I probably wouldn't have give it a fair crack. (my emphasis of a most damning concession) You said it. The 'new way' is the cult way, bud. Where there used to be you, the tree and your favorite chair under the tree, now make room for you, the tree, your favorite chair and the guru. He's in there somewhere, isn't he? Come on, honestly, do you think Maharaji has a presence in your life or not? Straight question. What do you say?

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:07:08 (EDT) From: URL Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Bingo! Message:

Come on asshole, you went to law school 'to absorb a new way of looking at things'. And you did learn a new way by all means. If you didn't, the legal knowledge would have had nowhere to stick. Did you blindly accept the brainwashing from the incessent drone of legalese? Or did it form a rational backdrop that you accepted as important to furthering your understanding and skill? Knowledge makes complete sense to someone who wants to learn about themselves on a deeper level. Therein lies the rub pal, you never really gave a shit about that topic.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 21:07:27 (EDT) From: Blackdog Email: None To: URL Subject: Couldn't have put it better myself. No really, I couldn't! Message:

.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:00:18 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: URL Subject: Jeez, the breathtaking spiritual humility of the gurunoid. Message:

Pranam to the all-knowing (yet inexpicably anonymous) Mr URL and pray he extends his grace to explain it all to you one day (and hope he succeeds where his master failed so dismally): Knowledge makes complete sense to someone who wants to learn about themselves on a deeper level. Therein lies the rub pal, you never really gave a shit about that topic. What is eating you, pal? Bliss not good enough perhaps... Why else would you need to come around here kicking sand in the faces of spiritually inferior beings who missed the whole point?

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 19:36:15 (EDT) From: URL Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Don't take it personal Nigel Message:

I come to keep you honest Nigel. The 'freedom of expression' afforded by technology wants for a few much needed checks and balances. I mean anyoldbody can write anything they want, pretty it up with a nice web presentation, and sound like they are the purveyors of official information. The reality is that sitting at the keyboard behind much of what gets posted here are some pretty confused people... if they would only admit it. Don't get me wrong, I sympathise with the people, but I can't support them airing their confusion publicly and calling it 'the truth'. Besides, it's fun kicking sand in the faces of a few of the people here who make themselves such targets... you, Heller and JW being but a few. So why do you come?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:26:52 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: Blackdog Subject: Hey I like this guy! Message:

Thanks for the answer, Blackdog. I'll not plague you with many more questions, and I'd like to make one observation. It seems to me that the 'aspirant' period is indeed a time 'to absorb a new way of looking at things.' And yeah, it was a very weird cult when I was in. I bailed after a short while because the meditation techniques didn't make up for all the weirdness. One tiny little inquiry: do you send 'em money?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:22:32 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: gerry Subject: Who Is It You Like, who is Blackdog? Message:

I have a sneaking suspicion Blackdog is a made up character by someone we all know, who has done similar things in the past. Rob maybe? Something about trying a little too hard. Talking about his working-class job as a bus driver a bit too much -- like he has to rely on that because 'Blackdog' isn't a real person. I think it's a persona and not a real person. I usually don't air these suspicions, but I trust my instincts on this. Maybe he should be 'Blackdog, the throughly modern PWK.'

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 09:29:26 (EDT) From: Gerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Are you transmitting thoughts? Message:

Hey JW, a few minutes after I posted that, I got the exact same thought, no kidding. For the same reasons, too. I didn't want to 'jump the gun' by saying this, so I'm really glad you did. Spot on, as they say.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:56:30 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Re: Are you transmitting thoughts? Message:

Hi Gerry and JW - I had exactly the same thoughts about Blackdog last night after reading his posts - he just doesn't sound like a real person, and definitely sounds like a 'persona'. He's too 'TOO' for even fiction. IMHO, this is too bad, because he did give me a polite answer to my question and I thought he might be someone I (we) could talk to. I didn't want to jump the gun either, so I'm glad JW spoke up too. Blackdog, whoever you are, be yourself.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:53:20 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Gerry Subject: No, Blackdog just isn't very good at it. Message:

Blackdog isn't very good at what he does, that's why it's pretty easy to tell. He or she just thinks so. Cheeky.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:06:42 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Zee Exstein Subject: Re: Who Is It You Like, who is Blackdog? Message:

I have no idea if there is an conpsiracy or organization to any of this, but I think Rob, and his later manifestations, is attempting to do PR for the cult. In all his personifications, the central theme is that he is a reasonable, rational, modern-day premie who doesn't act like he is in a cult. You know, he just does meditation, is appreciative to Maharaji for that, he has never been asked for money, doesn't give any, doesn't believe any of the stuff about Maharaji being god, etc., and is just an ordinary bloke who has been given a nice 'experience' by Maharaji and isn't it beautiful. In other words, he is the personification of what the cult would like people to think it's all about. Of course we know differently, but that is beside the point. Rob, or whoever it is, just presents this entirely fake front. The problem for Rob is that it's quite transparent, isn't done very well, and he's a little too ambitious. Life isn't like a screen play. It's more real than that, and most people, other than Rob apparently, can tell the difference quite easily, even over the internet.

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Date: Sat, Oct 23, 1999 at 21:09:23 (EDT) From: biff Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: Who Is It You Like, who is Blackdog? Message:

JW By not confronting joey on his labelling me a disturbing character am I to understand that you agree with him and accept his delusion that I am rob? Or that you agree that I'm disturbing? How have I ever been disturbing? From the first time that nim attacked me the only person who's come to my defence has been Katie. Not you, not Jim, not anyone else from the old days. It's been a surprise but I found this one really surprising because by not saying anything about his remarks about me it leaves me with the impression that you accept/agree with his opinion.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 16:40:46 (EDT) From: gerry Email: None To: biff Subject: Biff is Biff and a valued person here. Message:

Biff, I noticed that remark about you too. Sorry I didn't speak up then. I think most of the people who have been here for a while know you are YOU. A lot of people tip toe around Joey, I do it myself sometimes, so as to not get into a fight with him. He needs his space. And Joey, I'm NOT trying to start anything with you, I think for the most part your recent contributions here have been 'spot on' but you are wrong about Biff.

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Date: Mon, Oct 25, 1999 at 16:15:02 (EDT) From: biff Email: None To: gerry Subject: Re: Biff is Biff and a valued person here. Message:

Thank you Gerry! Much appreciated.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 13:34:11 (EDT) From: Katie Email: mishkat@gateway.net To: Zee Exstein Subject: I know biff (a.k.a. little brother, and btfb) Message:

FYI (and for everyone's info), 'biff' and 'little brother' are nicknames used by a guy called 'bftb' (Bystander From the Beginning), who has been around since Forum I, although he didn't start posting until forum II. Typing 'bftb' got cumbersome, and occassioned a lot of jokes, so he adopted the nickname 'biff'. I can vouch for him - he's a real person and a good person too, who I've enjoyed talking to over the years. He doesn't go by 'little brother' anymore, by the way. Sincerely from, Another friend of biff's :), Katie

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 15:44:22 (EDT) From: Katie Email: None To: Zee Exstein Subject: Re: I know biff (a.k.a. little brother, and btfb) Message:

Dear Zee - No, I haven't talked to 'biff' face to face or over the phone (I probably haven't talked to YOU either, right?). Does this make him (or you) NOT real? However, I can recognise his writing style. He was very honest AND consistent on Forum II and III about his feelings about Maharaji, and also about his need to remain anonymous. I am a big believer in taking people on the forum at face value, unless proved otherwise. I sensed pretty fast that 'Blackdog''s persona (London bus driver or whatever) was phony (a 'bad buzz' as you put it), but I've never gotten that feeling from biff at all. And he's been around for a long time - maybe a lot longer than you have (I don't know who you are). I feel that distrusting every new person who comes on to the forum is extremely destructive. One of the people I correspond with a lot here was dis-believed when she first got on the forum and it was extremely traumatic for her. I am surprised that she even continued posting here after her identity was continually challenged. But she did, and she's really gotten a lot out of posting on the forum, despite the traumatic introduction. Take care, Katie P.S. I have to say that I feel sorry for people who post on the forum under false personas (unless it's obviously a joke, like Tami Sunshine Rainbow). They may think it's funny, but I think they need help.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 20:46:03 (EDT) From: Blackdog Email: None To: gerry Subject: Well thanks, but dont think you're riding my bus free next time Message:

Do you send money: No mate, not on my wages. Even with overtime, I've got the wife to look after and my OU course to pay for. Well let me qualify that, I do bung a few quid in the pot at video events and the like - (tip: if you put in 50p pieces it looks like a lot) and now and then buy a video, although usually I borrow my mate's and copy it.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 21:24:49 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Blackdog Subject: Re: Well thanks, but dont think you're riding my bus free next time Message:

Cut the crap. Even people who have accents like that don't write that way. Give it up and don't take us as fools. Right mate?

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:48:11 (EDT) From: Blackdog Email: None To: Mel Gibson Subject: Re: Well thanks, but dont think you're riding my bus free next time Message:

Fuck em all, they don't know shit from shinola. I don't appreciate being suckered into a gang bang like this, this ain't over.....

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Date: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 at 22:06:12 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: Catweasel or URL perhaps? Message:

I agree. Blackdog is not a real person. He's forum disruption! Marianne

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:53:37 (EDT) From: who cares Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Oh listen to fucking Ali McBeal talking Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 14:23:48 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Marianne Subject: Re: Catweasel or URL perhaps? Message:

Whoever it is is too coherent to be Catweasel, and not as condescending as URL. I say Rob.

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Date: Sun, Oct 24, 1999 at 00:58:24 (EDT) From: VO Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: Catweasel or URL perhaps? Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 12:55:34 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Rob, (Whoever that is) Message:

The guy is a amateurish 'actor' who wants to fuck with people. It's the worst sort. Kind of like what Maharaji does.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 09:23:38 (EDT) From: Rob Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: Indeed, who the f**k are these people? (nt) Message:

Now give the guy a break. Hey Blockdog when everything is coming your way your in the wrong lane.

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Date: Fri, Oct 22, 1999 at 10:19:47 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Rob Subject: Hey, Rob, what happened? Message:

Rob, I'm confused. When you apologized for trying to trick us all, exes and premies alike, and later declared your crisis in faith, I defended you to some extent. You appeared to be raw and troubled in your introspection and sincerely ashamed for abusing our trust, such as it was. Who could say for sure who you are or what you stand for (if anything). Yet it was possible that you really were troubled by where this conversation took you even to the point of suffering severe depression as you once described. Others said you were full of shit; some fo us said maybe not. You then said you were going to call me. You did, in fact, leave two messages (I mean I think it was you) but never with a number and you never called back. So much for wanting to talk, I guess. Then you start posting under some other name(s). Do I have this right? You are/ were the 'Fly', weren't you? And now, Blackdog? Is that you? Rob, whether you're these other names or not, what happened? I think you owe me an explanation. I think you owe all of us one.

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