Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 9
From: Thurs, Oct 21, 1999 To: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 Page: 1 Of: 5


Way -:- First New Delhi address -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 15:50:42 (EST)
__ Charles -:- Interesting Perspective -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 16:14:32 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- And a question on the number in attendance -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 16:10:36 (EST)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: And a question on the number in attendance -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 03:45:55 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Yes, as I expected -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 04:36:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Enough -:- Re: Yes, as I expected -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:45:47 (EST)

Cynthia G. -:- Myths, Memories, Bookburning & more -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:57:31 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- blood, sweat and tears - exactly -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 15:39:34 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia G. -:- Re: blood, sweat and tears - exactly -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 17:00:57 (EST)
__ __ __ X -:- Re: blood, sweat and tears - exactly -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 23:46:26 (EST)
__ __ Cynthia G. -:- I'll never throw the stuff away! -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 16:58:40 (EST)
__ __ __ Cynthia G. -:- It must be lila -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 17:06:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- lila fer sure -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 00:11:51 (EST)

Dr Oct(UK) -:- Old as the hills -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:43:46 (EST)
__ AJW -:- How old is Zen? -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:29:51 (EST)
__ __ Runamok -:- How old is Zen? -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:45:57 (EST)

Mili -:- Feed a Child - NOW -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 12:37:17 (EST)
__ shri hans -:- Re: Feed a Child - NOW -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 23:54:34 (EST)
__ AJW -:- I'm feeding one right now -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:25:30 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- What a complete and total joke! -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:53:43 (EST)
__ A Premie -:- Re: Feed a Child - NOW -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:32:11 (EST)

Dr Octopus (UK) -:- BOOK BURNING REVISITED -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 12:32:02 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: BOOK BURNING REVISITED -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:39:51 (EST)
__ __ Dr Oct -:- Re: BOOK BURNING REVISITED -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:46:48 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Chaucer -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:07:23 (EST)
__ __ __ __ X -:- Re: Chaucer -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 23:51:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Chaucer -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:48:55 (EST)

youngold -:- great reading -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:38:11 (EST)
__ middle aged -:- Re: great reading -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 23:56:54 (EST)

Anon -:- late night thoughts -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:53:01 (EST)
__ JW -:- He has no conscience -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:31:44 (EST)
__ __ Anon -:- Re: He has no conscience -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 06:27:49 (EST)
__ __ Helen -:- Cracking the code/Cracked -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:39:14 (EST)
__ __ Charles -:- Bad Treatment? -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 16:34:51 (EST)
__ __ __ JW -:- Re: Bad Treatment? -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 01:34:58 (EST)
__ __ __ bb -:- Re: Bad Treatment? -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 00:24:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- bb, you got all the hot poop! -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 02:46:39 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- ***Best of Forum*** -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:47:16 (EST)
__ Runamok -:- Re: late night thoughts -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:11:13 (EST)
__ __ Anon -:- Re: late night thoughts -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 06:34:43 (EST)
__ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: late night thoughts -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 10:46:28 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: late night thoughts -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:37:45 (EST)

Deputy Dog -:- Life is but a dream! -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:18:46 (EST)
__ Enough -:- 'The fish in the water... -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 08:35:46 (EST)
__ Roger eDrek -:- That's it! That's the straw the broke this camel's back! -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 03:28:57 (EST)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- STOP THE VIOLINS! (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 09:15:20 (EST)
__ __ Sir David -:- Re: That's it! That's the straw the broke this camel's back! -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 04:10:48 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: Life is but a dream! -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:44:08 (EST)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Life is but a dream! -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:57:32 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Life is but a dream! -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:18:44 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Life is but a dream! -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 00:24:12 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Life is but a dream! -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 05:29:33 (EST)

Enough -:- Book Burning? -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 20:24:09 (EST)
__ Susan -:- Consciousness of Guilt-purging the past of the Khrishna Crown -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 16:29:32 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: Book Burning? -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 20:37:33 (EST)
__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Book Burning? -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:17:16 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Financial Options -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:30:36 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- JHB Just Doesn't Get it -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 03:41:22 (EST)
__ __ Annie -:- Re: Book Burning? -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:30:04 (EST)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Bullshit, Annie -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:39:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Abi -:- Re: Bullshit, Annie -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 02:04:16 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Hi Annie, I was there -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 00:37:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- bb, when will you send the video to Jim? -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 02:34:35 (EST)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- For Jim -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:45:00 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: For Jim -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 02:45:46 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Devotion -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:47:33 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: For Jim -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 00:35:31 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: For Jim -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 05:34:52 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Book Burning? -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:38:21 (EST)
__ __ Susan -:- describe how it happened -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:01:21 (EST)
__ __ __ Enough -:- ....and when?(nt) -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:05:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Happy -:- Book burning phase -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 10:26:19 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Enough -:- Thanks Happy -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 11:20:52 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I remember a time of chaos -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 02:53:45 (EST)

honesty -:- JM website -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 19:34:56 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- JM's also here! -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:15:15 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- What time do you call this?? -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:22:35 (EST)
__ Jean-Michel -:- JM' also here! -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:14:59 (EST)
__ JHB -:- Re: JM website -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 20:41:55 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: JM website -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 19:42:11 (EST)

youngold -:- to JW -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 18:47:50 (EST)
__ JW -:- www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1151 -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 19:31:48 (EST)
__ __ JHB -:- J-M's Site Link is Above! -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 20:46:47 (EST)
__ __ __ JW -:- Thanks -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:03:09 (EST)
__ __ Sir Dave -:- The site has moved and it's here -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 19:39:25 (EST)

JHB -:- Premie hints that M is Godlike -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:26:31 (EST)
__ Sir Dave -:- My poll results about God -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 08:12:10 (EST)
__ __ Jerry -:- Re: My poll results about God -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 08:51:10 (EST)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: My poll results about God -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 09:01:56 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- After years of satsang how could we believe in god or religion? -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 14:01:58 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Years of satsang! -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 16:52:47 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Sorry but this makes more sense -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 17:34:29 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sir Dave - Is this English? (nt) -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:30:38 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Here's what it is -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 03:50:26 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sir Dave - Then what's he saying? (nt) -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 09:19:11 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- A rough translation -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 10:14:45 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrekle -:- Thanks, but... -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 17:25:40 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: After years of satsang how could we believe in god or religion? -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 14:40:50 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Maharaji's claim to be God -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 11:13:07 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Maharaji's claim to be God -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 13:17:02 (EST)
__ Cynthia G. -:- Answers for URL -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 07:22:43 (EST)
__ __ Annie -:- Re: Answers for URL -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:09:30 (EST)
__ __ __ URL -:- Good post Annie! -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:24:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- GOOD QUESTION. NOW HOW ABOUT YOU? ARE YOU 'NIL' OR NOT? -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 22:20:38 (EST)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Tangent: Many, many premies? -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 02:17:06 (EST)
__ __ __ JHB -:- To Annie/Brenda -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:33:42 (EST)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Send the seekers anywhere except to Maharaji -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 14:12:30 (EST)
__ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- You will be back -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 16:58:22 (EST)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Not according to Catweasel -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 17:31:08 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Catweasel is a confused/bongo premie -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 19:33:25 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- I thought that Catweasel was blocked? -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 01:52:28 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ned Kelly -:- Re: I thought that Catweasel was blocked? -:- Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:52:34 (EST)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Where that Catweasel go? -:- Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 15:49:36 (EST)
__ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- You will be back -:- Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 16:57:02 (EST)


Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 15:50:42 (EST)
From: Way
Email: None
To: All
Subject: First New Delhi address
Message:
Why does Rawat invariably speak to beginners only?

Excerpts are now posted on ELK of Rawat's first address, Nov. 3, at the current event in New Delhi. Rawat has told 80,000 of his followers that: 'we have opened the doors of our intellect, but not the doors of our heart. The master can provide the key to that door, but we have to open it and proceed through it, as the master will not push us.'

Rawat has been saying the exact same thing for decades now. Hasn't it occured to his long-term followers that he has never once addressed them and congratulated them for having succeeded in 'opening the door of the heart'? He persistently addresses his followers in a way that presupposes their continuing failure at finding that joy within, which he supposedly is the master-bestower of.

How is it that Rawat always seems to assume that the people in his audience are having a lack of success with his Knowledge? He adopts this stance no matter who, what, where, or when he is speaking.

When are the practitioners of Rawat's knowledge going to get to see a little progress in their own experience? How often are they going to listen to their Master's words of encouragement that barely disquises his consistently low opinion of them? Will the graduation ceremony ever take place, or do 'Knowledge' students remain in kindergarden in perpetuity? Aren't there any first-graders by now, at least?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 16:14:32 (EST)
From: Charles
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Interesting Perspective
Message:
Dear Way,

A very interesting perspective if i might say. How true. He needs to go into the put-down corner big time!

No wonder premies on average have such low self esteem.

Charles

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 16:10:36 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: And a question on the number in attendance
Message:
Way, I assume that the statement you made indicated that 80,000 were in attendance at this event.

Does anyone really know what the attendance figures in India are? What kind of facilities are we talking about here?

Wasn't it once said that Maharaji addressed 250,000 or something like that? Again, what facilities are we talking about?

Are these numbers wildly exagerated or is this very common in India?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 03:45:55 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: And a question on the number in attendance
Message:
I've been there several time and enough involved in organization to have some hints.

I've heard that the maximum attendance the satsang area can hold is about 60,000, filled to the brim. That means most of the people sit on the gras, some thousands on the bleachers. The other 20,000 were probably standing in the back and on the roads if they were that many.

This includes 1,000 to 2,000 westerners very likely.

Maybe that was a 'public' program, and some thousands of people came from the vicinity, as attending gurus' meetings is very popular in India. Specially when you think that the Mehrauli ashram is located a few miles from one of the most famous pilgrimage area near Delhi (Chattarpur Mandir).

Figures like 250,000 are very likely over-exagerated by enthusiastic premies & mahatmas.

Beside this, the ashram couldn't decently (sanitation and food facilities) house more than 20,000 to 30,000 Indian premies 3 years ago.

Maybe also some thousands have been chartered back and forth from some big premie community near Delhi, like Kanpur, where there was about 50,000 PWK according to Indian premies I've met from this city.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 04:36:52 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Yes, as I expected
Message:
Thanks J-M.

Was I incorrect that I thought that I heard that Maharaji spoke to some number in the hundreds of thousands. I think it was in one of the propaganda movies long ago.

Yes, sanitation and food facilities have got to be critical factors in any large event. Not to mention the need for housing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:45:47 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Yes, as I expected
Message:
I remember seeing a video a few years ago where they had this Indian family happily leaving home for a 3 month walk across India to see M.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:57:31 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Myths, Memories, Bookburning & more
Message:
Hi Everyone,

Just finished reading last night's posts and got to thinking about the memories that are now emerging in my mind about stuff that happened in the 70's and 80's.

Myths and Memories:

There were many beliefs that I and other premies held/hold about the supernatural powers of M. For instance, does anyone recall believing that holy water increased in it's power (to do what I don't know), if it was DILUTED with distilled water, i.e., the more it was diluted the more powerful it was? How about, if you hear ringing in your ears it means that M is thinking about you? If you think about M's lotus feet being in your head while trying to meditate, it will make it easier to lose your thoughts and meditate on holy name, etc. (that from an initiator). That m could read one's thoughts?

Anyone out there got some more of these tidbits? I ask because on occasion in the past months I have had ringing in my ears and my first thought was 'Maharaji's thinking about me.' It was so automatic--brainwashing!!!

How about the story when Marolyn fell down the stairs at the original Malibu residence? She actually gave satsang at a program about it. She fell down some stairs and M held his hand out and said 'Stand up, you're okay.' Marolyn said 'I really thought I broke my back.' Then I heard through the PAM grapevine that she had IN FACT broken her back and M healed it. There were also various 'miracle stories' about M healing people by pouring holy water over them, bla bla bla. It was all premie bullshit, but I never heard m disputing these things. More reinforcement he was god, maybe?.

Bookburning

I wasn't around during the bookburning. But I was around maharaji personally before that. Believe me, a leaf does not flutter in his kingdom without his agya. He is clearly in charge. No community coordinator, ashram house father/mother or initiator would have carried this if it didn't come from him directly. That's obvious if one knows anything about how M runs things and I have personal experience of how he runs things. He's in charge and that's it.

Also, a premie friend of mine told me about it. It was during the early 80's. She said there was an edict that came down to all the communities to destroy 'contraband' as she called it: all tapes, printed materials and photos (probably the bare chested ones in the crown type pix). She confiscated everything from the community. I haven't had any contact with her over the past couple of years, but my sister saw her recently and told me she still has all of the old tapes, publications. I also have a collection that I never destroyed which includes a draft of Hans Yog Prekash (sp?), lots of Elan Vital mags, Divine Times, etc. Lots of tapes, both music and satsang. Also, my picture gallery is quite impressive. Photocopies of his signature--both M and Rawat. I'm keeping them for research and evidence.

More

When I tried to come back in 1998, I was shocked at the zipped lips of all the premies, old ones and new ones. When I mentioned DECA, NO ONE wanted to talk about it. When I asked about Bob Mishler, some one said 'Oh he just freaked out, he's dead now, anyway.' The censorship was so strained I could feel it. A general attitude of 'oh, that's all in the past, we don't talk about it anymore.' Yet, in private, when I got to know some of the old premies, they did open up about their continuing belief as M as Lord.

The past twenty four hours all I have been wondering is this: how could a compassionate lord, master, teacher, human being? not even contact me after I collapsed out of exhaustion from working for him? I was one of the first ones it happend to and he knew who I was. I saw him every single day. He could have sent a message to me through anyone, or he could have called to see how I was. Nothing. All I got was a crappy $10.00 weekly allowance, an assignment to DLM, then a bumpy ride up to my next ashram in Gainesville.

Yes, miss premie--Brenda was it? Maharaji does charge for his precious knowledge, not only in cash, but in blood, sweat and tears.

Love to all, Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 15:39:34 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: drek@oz.net
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: blood, sweat and tears - exactly
Message:
Yes, exactly. Knowledge is dirt cheap on the surface and is free at first. And it is like heroin, you gotta pay and pay and pay even if it's bunk.

Cynthia, for god's sake don't ever through that memorbilia away. In fact, if you could inventory it and let us know what you've got and would be willing to scan stuff, make copies or lend it to us we could put it up on the pages.

I'm speaking for myself, Jean-Michel, and the Ex-Premie.org website.

jmkahn@club-internet.fr

drek@oz.net

webmaster@ex-premie.org

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 17:00:57 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: blood, sweat and tears - exactly
Message:
Dear Roger,

I'll take a look and get back to you. Loved your rendition of Rock me Maharaji!!! LOL

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 23:46:26 (EST)
From: X
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Re: blood, sweat and tears - exactly
Message:
Cynthia,

I had a photo that you might have.

DO you have a photo still where he is looking at

the camera really sort of angry? There was one photo

released where it was spooky how dark he was.

Could you see if you have it?

It warrents public viewing.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 16:58:40 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: I'll never throw the stuff away!
Message:
Dear Roger,

I'll take a look at what I have and get back to you.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 17:06:38 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: It must be lila
Message:
I don't know what happened, but I guess you got the message. Cynthia
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 00:11:51 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: lila fer sure
Message:
Yes, please let us know what you've got.

Thanks for enjoying Rock Me, Maharaji.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:43:46 (EST)
From: Dr Oct(UK)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Old as the hills
Message:
Have just discovered a fascinating site that details the Zen Buddhist tradition of ... guess what? That precious technique 'So Ham'. And how old is Zen?

http://home.nvg.ntnu.no/~rikardb/re4ra1.html

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:29:51 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Dr Oct(UK)
Subject: How old is Zen?
Message:
About three seconds.

Anth the Empty Space

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:45:57 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: How old is Zen?
Message:
A little under 1500 years ago by most accounts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 12:37:17 (EST)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: All
Subject: Feed a Child - NOW
Message:
Click here
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 23:54:34 (EST)
From: shri hans
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Feed a Child - NOW
Message:
If I feed him, he will be hungry tomorrow (if he lives)

but if I give him knowledge, he can do service for the

rest of his life and I will make sure he gets

some rice and dal because I dont want him dying of

hunger, I will work him to death!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:25:30 (EST)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: I'm feeding one right now
Message:
He's in the living room, eating pasta.

antonio el cynico

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:53:43 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: What a complete and total joke!
Message:
Mili,

Can you make such a post on any of Maharaji's websites? I didn't think so.

Exactly how much does a Rolex watch cost? How many children could be fed if Maharaji was to give up just one of his Rolex watches?

Perhaps, Maharaji could have his Private Chef from Private Chefs, Inc. cook the kids up a gourmet meal.

Interesting I just checked the PCI webpage and they've removed Prem Pal Singh Rawat from their list of employers. Seems maybe they were embarassed about listing him or that HE requested they remove him.

Don't fret because I've got the original at Roger's House of Maharaji Drek Weak links.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:32:11 (EST)
From: A Premie
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Re: Feed a Child - NOW
Message:
I'm sorry but I've already arranged to donate all of my spare cash to Maharaji, which is a much more worthy cause. I did however, donate the 1.75 cups of rice to the hungry people since Maharaji probably has enough rice by now.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 12:32:02 (EST)
From: Dr Octopus (UK)
Email: None
To: All
Subject: BOOK BURNING REVISITED
Message:
The earliest example I encountered of M's attempt to destroy his history was back in the 1970s. ('74 I think).

At the DLM 'hansa graphic' printing works in London, word circulated of a particular photograph, taken in India, of M wearing a blue turban. All copies of the photo were ordered to be destroyed.

At the time, nobody had an explanation for such a course of action.

It dawned on me about a decade ago that he must have been introduced to the works of Nostradamus!

Is he 'The man in the blue turban'?

Per se...?

(personal opinion: I think Nostradamus' legacy is highly suspect, and prefer not to delve into such quagmires of apocalyptic apologetics: been there, done that.)

and yet ....

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:39:51 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Dr Octopus (UK)
Subject: Re: BOOK BURNING REVISITED
Message:
According to historical experts, most of Nostadamus's poems have been translated wildly incorrectly. They were, after all, written in an old form of French. Just read my bit of original Chaucer, in the thread below, to see how easy it is to get the translation wrong.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:46:48 (EST)
From: Dr Oct
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: BOOK BURNING REVISITED
Message:
wilco, sir Dave.

And of course, there's the 'Hister' misinterpretation. (Hister was the old name for the River Danube).

(Later): what thread below?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:07:23 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Dr Oct
Subject: Chaucer
Message:
The Chaucer bit is in the post title something like, 'This makes more sense to me'. I may discuss some Chaucer on the AG forum as there's a few very interesting observations he made which are very apposite.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 23:51:36 (EST)
From: X
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Chaucer
Message:
What was the blue turban in Nostradamus?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:48:55 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: X
Subject: Re: Chaucer
Message:
Dunno mate but I can tell you about the wife of Bath or the Miller in Chaucer. I don't believe that in the time of Nostradamus, turbans actually existed since he was around before the Seiks started wearing them. But this is just speculation.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:38:11 (EST)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: All
Subject: great reading
Message:
I really appreciate this place. I get a kick out of reading these threads. It is poking at

those dark corners that were protected from scrutiny for all those years. Thanks to all you

participants

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 23:56:54 (EST)
From: middle aged
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: Re: great reading
Message:
Well, it is tough to accept but facts are, there is

more than what we were told.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:53:01 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: All
Subject: late night thoughts
Message:
I just had a browse of the forum and it occurred to me that I don't feel so driven as I once did to contribute, despite the lively and stimulating posts that I read occasionally. This is because I have obviously got a good deal out of my system of what I wanted to say (partly through the media of the forum and my journeys essay).

Quite a lot of people have briefly appeared here with intense letters expressing their feelings, and then have faded away, hopefully to carry on with their lives the better for having expressed themselves. I thought I'd attempt a post here again, although I am sure I will only say what I have said before in so many words. Maybe there is still some stuff left in me that I need I need to get off my chest!

My tongue-in-cheek observation of current premies follows:

I have many, many friends who have received knowledge and who were once very active premies, most don't practice now and never go to events. There is a definate disillusionment on their part even if it is silent. Those that are active premies however, seem, as ever to be struggling more financially, as a result of the commitment they have to doing service, practising etc. and they seem more private (embarrassed??) about the whole thing too..If they are more self-assured then it sometimes comes across as smug. (This intensely private relationship thing with Maharaji makes me a little uneasy since one of the things I liked was the easy, innocent and open expressiveness that premies used to have. I may be wrong but I think I sense a little seige mentality amongst some premies. The innocence has definately fled. (Any guilt has yet to be admitted!) Of course me being critical doesn't exactly ease communication when I broach the subject. I don't think that it would be in any way dishonest, or an exaggeration on my part to say that almost all the premies I know (who are mostly old timers) and who are happy to talk about Maharaji openly, appear to me to be suffering from no less than a kind of advanced madness, from which I can see very little chance of recovery (alas since most are approaching retirement age and the inevitable atrophy of their senses). It would seem that when a person has habitually entertained a wild notion for a certain number of years and their temples are flecked with grey, then at that (40 something-ish) time their delusions set irreversibly hard and will stubbornly remain so, probably until death !

Anyway I have no actual experience of what blissed-out nuttiness premies may now be getting up to at events etc. since I have stopped going to any for a few years. I must say that I had some reservations about this experiment since I used to imagine that I was sustained, in some essential way, by my attendance and practice. I am therefore quite relieved (relief is the first, and therefore probably the most 'true' word that springs to mind) that I am feeling so distinctly improved considering my deliberate absence.

My usual personal moan about ashrams follows (skip if necessary)

From all the pettier criticisms I may have entertained about life with Maharaji one thing still stands out as a persistent moan.

As a premie, I dedicated my life (on the recomendation of Maharaji) to serve him and thus found myself in my twenties, one of maharaji's monks. This would not have been so pitiful had it really been my hearts whole aspiration to become such. Rather it had largely been the pressure of Maharaji and his instructors words that had convinced me that my my true wish should be to take the cloth. (that word 'should' used to crop up all the time in satsang..'so premies you SHOULD do this that and the other..' ) I ignored my other aspirations as advised, trusting that wonderful ashram life would be more fulfilling. Not so, I just sunk into obscure servitude and my world became greyer...duller.

I later emerged from Dick Cooper's infamous ashram purge of 1981 as a smiley but confused young man. I would maybe credit Maharaji more for teaching me how to meditate and for all the good times, had not the memory of those pleasures been tainted by some miserable experiences in the ashram. However I had a lot of unfullfilled energy -love- to give and I put this into my new life.

However generously I look at my past involvement with Maharaji, I cannot avoid the fact that since stopping practising, I have actually become a generally happier person. It's true that I am more agnostic than I was, and hence don't have the comfort of particular spiritual beliefs. Life and death therefore are to be faced more honestly in my opinion. I do meditate occasionally but not with regularity or much self-discipline. I was totally put off that by the extremism of the ashram. It is a nice feeling but it is not now, for me, so much a refuge from a world that is to be spurned. Of course I am enjoying many things in life that I was denied before and that accounts for all my new-found material happiness. All the same, despite the moments of inner poise that I had as an ashram premie, I was generally quite deeply unfulfilled and often miserable from the pressure.

Of course I had a lot of catching up to do when I left but fortunately things have have worked out well for me. (only through a lot of hard work and the legacy of a good upbringing and a loving family)

When all's said and done I would say that if Maharaji stands accused of anything in my eyes, then it would be for so vigourously encouraging young people like myself, who had a lot going for them in life, to so completely forsake the opportunities of youth, the attatchment to families, and submit to the intense ashram regime which he fostered so keenly. I would like to think that Maharaji had some remorse for encouraging people to go into those establishments, for if he has none then he must truly be a pretty strange person. I suppose I don't really want to think this. A part of me says that maybe he is a victim of his upbringing etc. and therefore is in more or less innocent for his less wonderful effects on others. And of course, he considerately shut the ashrams down in the end for our benefit didn't he?. Hmmmm.

It is a testament to the distance that he maintains from most premies that we really don't know much about such feelings he may have as a man. After all, his only communication is in his 'confident' role as a 'Perfect Master' giving satsang. I wonder if he has qualms that people are intimidated into subservience because of his supposed power and position. (whether or not they really have much understanding)

He appears to make some attempt at putting new-comers at ease through his jokey manner, and yet premies sometimes end up taking the whole thing so seriously that their respect for Maharaji becomes fanatical and they have little left for any one else. That makes people uneasy..so it's a cycle of ease and un-ease. Weird. Maybe the uneasiness of premies makes M seem superhumanly cool by comparison. I'm rambling..Jai Sat Chit Anand.and Bhole Shri etc.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:31:44 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: He has no conscience
Message:
I think any discussion of what kind of a man Maharaji is, is clouded by the fact that most of us have never met the man and know little about his personal values, except what we have heard from people who have spent time with him. Those reports range from undying loyalty and love, to hatred of a man who is greedy, compulsive, entirely self-centered, and dismissive and uncaring towards other human beings, especially his own devotees who don't happen to have lots of money to give him. But the fact that he never had any interest in who his devotees were as individuals, including those who dedicated their lives to him, is an indictment in and of itself, and a clear indication of what he thought about us.

I personally think he is a sociopath, probably due to both genetic and environmental factors. Not a sociopath in the sense that he could be violent or commit violence against others, although there certainly have been stories over the years of his sadistic behavior towards Bahari Singh and others around him, but rather it's a general uncaring about others, perhaps beyond his own immediate family. [Although, again, given his sexual infidelity to Marilyn, one wonders about that, too.] I don't think he has much of a conscience because he has rarely, if ever in his life, been forced to face the consequences of his actions. Once he rebelled against his mother and broke the ties to her, he was a child with the world at his feet -- a very dangerous situation. A child with power and money. God, no. After that, he rarely heard a discouraging word from anyone, and there were always those willing to clean up his messes and make excuses for him. All of that is a recipe for an inability to ever admit error, let alone take responsibility for it.

I agree with you that the ashrams are one of Maharaji's more significant crimes against humanity. And, although I wasn't there, I am told what when ashram premies confronted Maharaji about this after he closed the ashrams in the 80s, he just told them it was about the 'experience of love' or such nonsense, and refused to deal with the reality of the situation. Plus, Maharaji rarely even allowed questions, and when he did the audience was openly hostile to anything that smacked of criticism of their lord and master. Again, I doubt much confrontation went on.

I think he believes most of the time that whatever he does is just fine, but I do feel he has periods of self-doubt, especially due to his failure to fulfill the supposed mission he has, or thinks he has, to continue his father's work. The fact that he has scaled back his expectations about spreading knowledge, and has become somewhat of a recluse and an unknown in the world, feeling he has to do that to hold on to what he's got, must have caused him to doubt himself considerably. Whether he has accepted that and moved on, I don't know.

But a real problem for him is a fairly large group of ex-ashram premies who feel the way you do, Anon. They resent Maharaji for what he did to them, and resent him further because he won't even address the issue. I think that will dog him for however long he is around, because these people are less likely to forget the whole thing and just move on.

I disagree, however, that premies in their 40s and beyond are less likely to abandon Maharaji and his cult. There have been quite a number in that age group who have become visible ex-premies through his website, and also, I think people often tend to examine their lives in their middle ages and are less rigid in their beliefs. I know that's true with me. As a 20 year old premie, I was absolutely sure of what I was doing. I doubt, even if I was still a premie, that I could feel that way now.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 06:27:49 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: He has no conscience
Message:
Thanks JW,

your responses are always very good to read, and well thought out.

There's a lot of good posts at the moment - I like the reminiscing one's which remind me of all the crazy details-like the Charanamrit etc. Unfortunately I am a bit pushed for time to join in as much as I would like.

You were right to balance my suggestion about 40 something premies being set in their ways, by pointing out that there are many who are less rigid in their beliefs.

I was really just commenting that some people I meet, who are really entrenched in their beliefs, seem to have gone so far down that road that to change their wayseven if they wanted to becomes more difficult as time goes by. Old habits die hard.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:39:14 (EST)
From: Helen
Email: None
To: JW & Anon
Subject: Cracking the code/Cracked
Message:
Great posts, Anon and JW. A couple of thoughts...how interesting that M, when confronted by ex-ashramites said it is all about love. The vague cop-out strikes again! How funny that anyone could hang onto that dewdrop of wisdom when faced with: incredible debt, lingering doubt, mounting evidence of M's who-gives-a-fuck attitude. And yet I know that I know the love thing was very very seductive and I plugged right into it when M would say stuff like that. It was like 'Oh wow, he is so right. Here I am upset that I have no money, no health insurance, and here I am bitching at Maharaji. It's all about love. Oh wow, thank you M for showing me how shallow my real life concerns are.'

Interesting , the idea of the crazy 40-ish premies. I have a good friend who is still a premie who seems pretty normal to me in a lot of ways, except when she reverts to her 'premie self'. It seems pretty harmless to me, I think she really sees herself as having that personal thing going with M even if the people around him are nuts. (Duh???) She also sees him as this wry witty guy who is truly sane in an insane world. I think she actually buys into his philosophy a lot and she really trusts him. Anyway, she hasn't cracked the code yet about what all of this is about and I am not sure I have the power to crack it because when I have tried it has gotten so emotional between us. It's like M is so precious to her that it is just too threatening to hear anything bad about him. But she doesn't really seem crazy or nuts to me AT ALL, very normal in fact in many ways.

Another separate idea altogether, I liked what you had to say JW, that mid-life can actually be a time of expansion rather than of rigidity. I think I read somewhere in some developmental psychology book that mid-life is a time when the masks one wears in order to 'get by' start to get really uncomfortable and one feels compelled to face the hard cold truth about oneself/one's life however painful. This can lead to incredible growth and ultimately real satisfaction. So I too think that there is hope for us 40-ish types to shed the crap of the past, even if it is pretty ingrained & painful to do so. I guess the discouraging thing is feeling that one wasted precious years...I am kind of over that myself, I only wasted 6 years and never lived in the ashram thank God.

Still lurking a bit, and enjoying the discussion (most of the time anyway).

Helen

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 16:34:51 (EST)
From: Charles
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Bad Treatment?
Message:
I was interested to know about the bad treatment of Bahari Singh. Would you elaborate please?

Thanks,

Charles

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 01:34:58 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Charles
Subject: Re: Bad Treatment?
Message:
Although I never saw this directly, I heard it from other people whom I trust enormously, and so I think it's true.

Bahari Singh was kind of a valet or personal bodyguard for Maharaji when he first came to the West. I think in some ways Bahari was a mother substitute and maybe was reporting to Mata Ji. Anyhow, I think Maharaji resented him in some way for that reason. Plus, Bahari thought Maharaji was god and would never punish him or fight back if Maharaji hit him or made him do painful or humiliating things.

One time in Kansas City, on the roof of the ashram in the dead of winter, Maharaji made Bahari Singh fill up a bathtub of water, take his clothes off, and sit in it. I think someone even dunked Bahari Singh a few times and Maharaji thought it was all hysterically funny. I also heard that Maharaji would chase Bahari Singh around and hit him with sticks. These were apparently fairly common occurrences. I know I heard more, but don't recall at the moment.

I think when the holy family split up, Bahari Singh went with the Mata Ji/Bal Bhagwan Ji camp. There may have been other things as well, but Maharaji really rejected Bahari Singh.

One time around 1979, Bahari Singh just showed up in Miami and I think wanted to get back into Maharaji's good graces. I remember as Community Coordinator, I found Bahari a place to stay with an Indian family, because nobody really knew what to do with him, and Maharaji refused to even see him.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 00:24:58 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Charles
Subject: Re: Bad Treatment?
Message:
Bahari was a murderer.

I heard that more than once.

It would be told to illustrate how the lord was.......

fill in the blank with your excuse.

prem rawats father, the nutcase, had him as a driver.

He threatened prem rawats teacher with harm because

the teacher, I forget the details but dared to

give him (the almighty) some trouble. p rawat even said

that story.

One day during the family break up, marolyn rawat

and bahari were in a room and bahari said he was

going to india to get the family back together

again. p rawat said 'I give you agya not to go'

and the conversation continued and Marolyn said

'bahari, m gave you agya not to go' and p rawat

said to her sternly 'Marolyn, bahari is going to do

what bahari is going to do' and bahari went off to

india. mata ji took baharis passport from him and

would not give it back. Bahari told mata ji one time

that what she just said to the premies was not true.

bahari said that mata ji said 'I know but (oh damn,

mymemory, I posted this in forum 2 I think and I remembered

at that time, but she said something like) ' (darn, well

it was like) 'thats thier problem'

anyway, he DID kiss bal bhagwans feet, and said later to

us that bbj was crazy. (i agree)

he wanted to commit suicide he claimed but m came to him

in a dream and said something that made him think he

would get back to the US and m again.

Well, he did get back to the US but m wouldnt let him

get close to him again for the next 15 years or so.

He could go through darshan after about 2 or 3 years,

but then that stopped anyway. bahari you understand

was LONGING to get back his old life of hanging out with

m but m would have non of it. He kept that guy

hanging WAY out on a limb and during the NY 88 program,

saturday morning, m said that NO ONE was a devotee.

bahari was at that event and I saw him after and he

just looked awful. I figured it was partly the NO ONE

statement. I knew m mentioned that someone died

and it hit him and I thought it might be his mom (it wasnt)

but I wanted to ask bahari if mata ji was dead but

he looked so wierd that I asked him nothing.

bahari or charanand leaked the story of bahari killing

a man before he met p rawats dad. I lately look at it

like the godfather, the stick wielding, kicking, old man

rawat, and his sidekick the hit man.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 02:46:39 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: bb, you got all the hot poop!
Message:
Thank god we got bb.

I'll probably snag that as a ***Best*** just because your memory is getting a bit iffy.

I heard some story that back in India Maharaji made somebody drink green dish detergent with one of those old camera flash cubes in it. I also remember hearing that Maharaji made somebody (maybe Arthur Brigham) eat or drink a very strong marijuana elixir.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 14:47:16 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: ***Best of Forum***
Message:
Very interesting point on how for most of Maharaji's life he most likely has had to suffer few, if any, consequences of his actions. How many of us can say that we really understand what that would be like? Maharaji has been surrounded by 'Yes Men' all of his life.

Of course, this is all conjecture and second hand information, but it would be really informative if a real Premie Around Maharaji (PAM) were to correct us here. They might tell us that on Saturdays Maharaji is out there on the one of the California highways cleaning up trash along side Bette Midler or cooking a meal for the homeless at a soup kitchen. Instead, I think he is shopping on Rodeo Drive or in his recording studio working with his band, Sifter and the Doobie Brothers.
***Best of Forum***

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:11:13 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Re: late night thoughts
Message:
It's good to see you posting, Anon. I must say, I don't know why you want to cut Mirage so damn much slack as a qualifier to your harsh criticisms of him. Your criticisms sing but you seem to doubt your own analysis by wondering aloud if he 'has qualms' or 'had remorse'.

C'mon, he has qualms and remorse all the way to the bank!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 06:34:43 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: late night thoughts
Message:
I must say, I don't know why you want to cut Mirage so damn much slack as a qualifier to your harsh criticisms of him. Your criticisms sing but you seem to doubt your own analysis by wondering aloud if he 'has qualms' or 'had remorse'.

C'mon, he has qualms and remorse all the way to the bank!

Runamok, I agree that if Maharaji had no values whatsoever (and hence no glimmer of remorse for people who suffered within his court) then that would make his 'compassionate' mission to humanity a hypocritical sham. Historically it would indeed seem that most meglomaniacs become so drunk with their power that they are blinded to their ill effects on others, or feel that their methods are justified by the merit of their cause. I guess that they also become so immersed in, and committed to their role that they will not stop to consider the possibility of that they are wrong. How many powerful leaders admit to their mistakes? Usually they just become more fanatical about their cause even when faced with death.

I readily confess that I did wonder both aloud and in silence as to the actual condition of Maharaji's conscience. Maybe he does have moments of self doubt..who knows? You obviously are certain that Maharaji has no qualms and is laughing gleefully all the way to the bank (and cocking a private snoot at the silly suckers who worship him?) I think that the situation, the psychology, the dynamics, the motives are actually very complex...one scenario could be that he has motives of genuine altruism and yet mistakenly thinks that as the chosen one (so to speak) he can do no wrong . What I am driving at is that, although it is tempting to cast him as a total monster, I consider it personally counter-productive, or an imbalanced attitude to do this, considering my experience of the man. Maharaji is in my opinion a mixture of good intention and naivity and has considerable responsibility, at the end of the day, for the good and bad effects that his teachings have had on people. I wish indeed that some vestige of his better nature could be persuaded to reconsider some of the complaints of his so-called 'enemies' who after all, were once his loyal followers. Although sometimes one might get the impression that this forum is concerned with 'baying for blood' all I have sought, when the initial anger has subsided, is to to gain some clarity after emerging, dazed,from the whirlwind into which I stumbled aged 17.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 10:46:28 (EST)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Re: late night thoughts
Message:
OK, so you're saying that he does have some kind of conscience even if he is twisted, misguided or otherwise himself led astray ['Maharaji has considerable responsibility, at the end of the day, for the good and bad effects that his teachings have had on people' which I assume you to mean that he TAKES responsibility)].

But I still think you give him too much credit. There are really two issues here. One is how we live with ourselves after the fact. Something like the victims of any crime, do we forgive, forget? Can we forgive or forget after we spend 5-10 (maybe more) years just dealing with the after affects of cult involvement?

I've talked to concentration camp survivors who had more to deal with than most of us in this area (i.e., how to let go of past pains so that they can live their lives productively). The issues are separate. One is Miragey's actual culpability and the other is our ability to go on.

I feel something human about Mirage in terms of me going on. I feel something llike forgiveness toward him. Mind you, I do not forgive him. But I could. But my intellectual processes perceive a person who has perpetrated a fraud and used that to con people and continues to do so. Whether or not this fraud and con constitutes the legal definitions necessary for prosecution, it certainly fits the dictionary definitions).

I know you had more personal contact with him than I did, Anon, and I hate to think that's how he won your begrudging lack of judgementalism. Is that part of the reason why bigwigs don't post here? There are other reasons I'm sure, but it hurts that premies who were/are actually the actual 'officers' and share responsibiltiy with the fatrat don't come forward.

Anyway, my point is there is a difference between respecting yourself and respecting someone who has violated you. All the more so, Miragey's trick is to do it to masses of people. At the end of the day, he may feel some concern, but at the end of those days I hadn't take good care of myself, my bank account, my career, etc, but I had taken care of HIS.

And it's another can of worms, but perhaps the world would be a better place if I had looked after this guy who wanted peace on earth instead of that guy who made a big production saying that he did.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:37:45 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Anon
Subject: Re: late night thoughts
Message:
Nice post, Anon. I particularly like the bit about premies having a siege mentality. In the old days we had so much support from the community, but that's pretty much gone now. Also, in every community there are probably premies not only drifting away to become non-practicing premies, but becoming open ex-premies. I guess it's hard to maintain the pretence that knowledge is making you happy in modern times.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:18:46 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Life is but a dream!
Message:
Imagine you could view the scene around you for 3,000 years, without dying or growing old. What would happen around you?

People, would grow old, dry up, and blow away. Languages and cultures would come and go. The physical structures around you would crack, collapse, and eventually blow away in a gust of wind.

Life is a dream on a slightly different scale than our sleeping dreams. Life is but a dream.

Paraphrase of the Buddha

Why do I mention this? Just to say 'lighten up.'

Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 08:35:46 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: 'The fish in the water...
Message:
is thirsty and everytime I hear it I just laugh.'

Did you enjoy that the first time M told us that one? How about the 100th time in less than a year? What are your feelings on M repeating his stories over and over?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 03:28:57 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: That's it! That's the straw the broke this camel's back!
Message:
Aaaaaaaggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhh!

Lighten up! You got a lot of nerve! We ain't gonna make it much past 00:00:01 January 1, 2000 and you're talking living for 3000 years.

Airplanes big and small just falling out of the sky. Train crashes, bus crashes, crazed gunmen taking out their coworkers, consumer product recalls. On and on and on it goes. Worse and worse it gets. Christ, I'm so frazzled I would meditate tonight if I hadn't taken that handful of pills that I stole from my mother. Do you think it's okay to have a drink or something?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 09:15:20 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: STOP THE VIOLINS! (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 04:10:48 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: That's it! That's the straw the broke this camel's back!
Message:
Well Mr eDrek, according to my Millennium Poll about half of people who read these forums think that all that's going to happen on January 1st is a few powercuts.

Will our friend Mr Dog still think life is but a dream when the reality of the Y2K bug hits home?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:44:08 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Life is but a dream!
Message:
Hey, Deputy Dog!

Interesting scenario, and lightening up is very good advice! But can I, in a light-hearted sort of way, ask you if you think Maharaji is above criticism? If not, then (in a light-hearted way) let us know some of the minor faults you find with him.

Thanking you in advance,

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:57:32 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Life is but a dream!
Message:
John,

BTDT earlier with Jim. There are some things I don't like about M, and some things I would like to be different, but I still consider myself a premie. It doesn't have to be digital, i.e., 0 or 1, all or nothing.

Dep

(P.S. How can you thank me in advance? Doesn't that violate some fundamental law of physics?)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:18:44 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Life is but a dream!
Message:
BTDT earlier with Jim. There are some things I don't like about M, and some things I would like to be different, but I still consider myself a premie. It doesn't have to be digital, i.e., 0 or 1, all or nothing.

BTDT? By the down train? Balyogeshwar teaches divine truth?..... enlighten me.

Anyway, you may have noticed, I have this theory that premies are incapable by conditioning to put into print any criticism of Maharaji. So, as you call yourself a premie, you can prove me wrong. What are those things about M you would like to be different?

(P.S. How can you thank me in advance? Doesn't that violate some fundamental law of physics?)

No - I thanked you for your reply before you replied. A bit like we gave our devotion to Maharaji before he showed us God.

All the best,

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 00:24:12 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Life is but a dream!
Message:
-

'No - I thanked you for your reply before you replied. A bit like we gave our devotion to Maharaji before he showed us God. '

John, I waited until after and I'm not particularly devoted, I just value K and like what M says about it. Maybe that's because I use K. If you don't use it you lose it.

Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 05:29:33 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Life is but a dream!
Message:
'What are those things about M you would like to be different?'

BTDT. Don't want to do that again.

DD,

Do me a favour and let me know when you pointed out some faults of M's so I can search the archives. It's just that I have never seen a premie criticise M and it would make my day to see it. You see even with you who 'aren't particularly devoted' I personally have failed to get a criticism out of you on this occasion.

Thanks again,

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 20:24:09 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Book Burning?
Message:
Would anyone please let me know what they remember about the time the order came down from DLM/EV to get rid of the old stuff from the DLM/Guru Maharaj Ji days. I was definetely around but somehow missed the edict. As a result, I find myself with a small inventory of this contraband material.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 16:29:32 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Consciousness of Guilt-purging the past of the Khrishna Crown
Message:
One of you who was there has to gather all these details and make an addition to the DLM History at ex premie org. This is a really important subject.

Over and over again I am shocked by the STUPID things this cult does. His adivsors really must think he is the Lord because why doesn't somebody say,.' Prem, no offense but, we will never get all the stuff. We will then be in the owrst of all possible postions. The stuff will stiff be out there to use against us when Al Gore finally gets the internet up and running, and people will wonder what we were so ashamed of that we had this world wide purge of our history. Prem, there are already tons of ex devotees we'll never find who probably have pics of the Mala dance in their attics. It just won't work. We'll look worse than if we try to destroy the stuff than if we simply move on'

And why did Glen Whitaker write those awful letters? He looked like a fool. That he may have done all on his own. Do you think?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 20:37:33 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Book Burning?
Message:
I don't remember it too clearly, but I retrieved some stuff from the trash that another premie had thrown away. It didn't hit me with the strength of agya so I kept all my stuff as well. I had this separation in my head where I saw all the crap in the organisation, but still felt that M was above that, so I could easily ignore instructions from the community co-ordinator.

Anyone for a Divine Times or two, Hindi books (well 2), pictures galore? $10,000 dollars for my complete collection.

John the hoarder.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:17:16 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Book Burning?
Message:
Send my the $10,000 in certified funds, upon receipt I will allow you dehoard your collection to me and you will be free of it. I appreciate this opportunity to help you in your time of needing to give me something.

thank you

Ben

PS: If I receive your funds within 72 hours I will not charge you for the freight.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:30:36 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Financial Options
Message:
Ben,

There appears to be some confusion here. I will however sell you for only $2000 the option to buy my entire collection for $7000, when Maharaji removes himself as head of his organisation. Imagine, you could trade this option as the likelihood of Maharaji resigning draws close. I'll even throw in a piece of the sandalwood garland Marolyn wore when she got married (to Prem Pal in case there's any doubt).

John the trader in holy relics.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 03:41:22 (EST)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: JHB Just Doesn't Get it
Message:
As usual, you did not understand what I said many years ago, you clearly stated back then when I wasn't around (m told me) that you would pay me to take it, you then offered me $10,000 to relieve you of your burden. I guess next time I will have to send you a video first. In the meantime please send the $10,000 and we can work on your confusion later.

Ben -the de-hoarder

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:30:04 (EST)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: Book Burning?
Message:
Hi folks,

I was around at the time and there was no 'agya' to get rid of anything. What happened was typical. M said something in one of his periodic attempts to shed cultural trappings and Hindu voodoo to the effect that the magazines etc., were presenting knowledge in a skewed way and needed to be de-Indianized, etc.

A few overly zealous coordinator types took it upon themselves to ask people to trash the old stuff. I never heard about it at the time and kept a large stash of culturally-incorrect goodies.

It was never agya or 'officially' anything. I know you'd love for this to be a Fahrenheit 451, totalitarian scenario. Sorry to disappoint you. It was just a few overamped types, some of whom may be here breathing hard right now, getting carried away. Most premies never heard anything of the kind. I didn't.

Just goes to show you, there can be a stunted, cultic mentality existing right in the midst of something that's overwhelmingly genuine and beautiful for plenty of other people.

Or is that an impossible perspective for you to see?

I'm curious.

Annie

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:39:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Bullshit, Annie
Message:
Is this Annie Wood again?

Your post wreaks. Once again we have a cult apologist trying to convince people that Maharaji neither knew nor was responsible for anything untoward done in his name. What you say's completely unsupportable by the facts and common sense.

First, do you know for a fact that Maharaji didn't order the nameless 'zealots' into action? Second, do you claim he didn't know they were telling people to burn, shred and destroy all the old stuff? Yeah, right. You're about as credible as a pro-cult witness at the Japanese Cult trials. All deflection, all nonsense. Fuck off. No one but fellow cult members cognizant of the facts would ever take you seriously.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 02:04:16 (EST)
From: Abi
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Bullshit, Annie
Message:
Jim,

I agree with you. You're spot on. But do you really have to tell her to 'fuck off'? Can't you put it another way? I'm a little precious about this.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 00:37:00 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Abi
Subject: Hi Annie, I was there
Message:
I lived in the Rivo ALto house in Miami and JeanMarie

was also living there. He was the head of elanvital.

Jean marie was instructed to get rid of the past.

At the elanvital storage in the deca 'complex',

they were throwing out tapes and videos and pictures

and proofs and premies would raid the stuff that was

going to be burnt and dumped.

NON of the old videos were available to be seen

by any of the 'community' premies and they were to be

gotten rid of but usually someone would hide them and

be the secret archivist of the commmunity.

I have some of that stuff myself and the video

from the archive is a torn and thrown out copy

of who is gmj that is now in a box a few feet away

with Jim's address on it.

I got it out of the trash from elan vital headquarters.

WHat was the input you got where you were?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 02:34:35 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: bb, when will you send the video to Jim?
Message:
I'd like to make MPEGs or AVIs of this stuff and put it online.

P.S. You don't wanna know what goes on when Jim gets a hold of this kind of stuff. Jim dresses up in a Krishna costume that he had made for such occasions and screams into a bullhorn trying to out screech Maharaji. In the end, a rather pathetic sight, Jim lays prostrate on the floor surrendering to the Big M.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 22:45:00 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: For Jim
Message:
Is this Annie Wood again?

Jim,

This person signed her first post Brenda even though the from field was Annie. Do you know her? Has she posted before? I was hoping to lure her into arguments to expose her devotion. I guess that's my current goal here - to get premies to admit they are devotees.

Had a busy week?

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 02:45:46 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: For Jim
Message:
Hey bright star, here's a freebee. I personally would be honored to know that I was a devotee. I have a hard time saying I am however because to be devoted to anything is an expression of heartfelt committment. I wouldn't be so bold as to say I demonstrate that degree of fortitude.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:47:33 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Devotion
Message:
URL,

So what you are saying is that you aspire to be a devotee of Maharaji?

If you confirm this, can I just say 'Well Done!' I think for exes and premies and aspirants alike, it is a good thing to have the clarity that this whole deal is about devotion to Maharaji.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 00:35:31 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Re: For Jim
Message:
John,

So THAT's your dastardly game! And I just thought you were being nice. Sigh.

Dep

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 05:34:52 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: For Jim
Message:
'I was hoping to lure her into arguments to expose her devotion. I guess that's my current goal here - to get premies to admit they are devotees.'

So THAT's your dastardly game! And I just thought you were being nice. Sigh.

DD,

I was being nice:-) I think it's a very nice thing I'm trying to do both for premies, ex-premies and potential premies. The truth is good for us all.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:38:21 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Re: Book Burning?
Message:
Annie,

If you read my post again, I never said it was agya - in fact I suspect it may have been as you say.

But remember, most of the Hindu trappings came from his own mouth. Read his quotes on the DLM/EV Papers site throughout the years if you doubt that.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:01:21 (EST)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: describe how it happened
Message:
I think this is an interesting question. So does anyone who posts here recall what was said? Did someone get up and make an announcement 'Burn all your old stuff'? Did they say why? Was a letter sent around. I am especially curious what the reason they gave was.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:05:50 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: ....and when?(nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 10:26:19 (EST)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Book burning phase
Message:
Enough,

I don't remember the time exactly, but I remember clearly that for me it was the final straw which made me drop all contact with EV and Prempal. I would think that it was somewhat earlier than '85, like the early 80s. The last time I saw M at a program was in 82.

And how it happened? All tapes, all 'And It Is Divines' were collected in the ashrams and destroyed or shipped away. Accordingly, it must have started before the ashrams were closed down!

I was married to a very devoted premie at that time. She took the whole thing very seriously, and actually destroyed all tapes and papers in our home! (We're not married anymore, her devotion and my criticism could not work out, and we split.

I experienced it as a kind of 451. (Maybe others didn't). Prempal clearly wanted to destroy the evidence of his LOTU period. He attempted to rewrite history. To what extent it was his direct 'agya', I don't know, but he was definitely well aware of it, and it happened according to his wish.

I don't think there can be any question about that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 11:20:52 (EST)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: Thanks Happy
Message:
I guess what I'm trying to figure out here is if this coincides with the disappearance of Guru Maharaj Ji and his emergence as Maharaji. I got lost in the maya sometime in the 80's for a short time. When I came back with my tail between my legs, I sent the guy a check made out to Guru Maharaj Ji. I got a letter back from EV that said in the future please make checks to Maharaji. Needless to say they had cashed the check but I sure wish I had kept their letter of explanation or, better yet, stayed lost in the maya.

Take care

Enough

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 02:53:45 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: I remember a time of chaos
Message:
My life fades

The vision dims

All that remains are memories

I remember a time of chaos

Ruined dreams

This wasted land

But most of all I remember the road warrior

the man we called Max

The purge was sometime in the mid-80s. I remember the commmunity that I lived in had a beautiful handmade wooden cabinet that stored all the audio tapes of Maharaji. The tapes were available on loan to premies. Then they were gone and the reason was that HQ had asked for them back.

Annie, you're a clever liar. You sound so reasonable and everyting, but I wonder how much does the cult pay you?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 19:34:56 (EST)
From: honesty
Email: None
To: All
Subject: JM website
Message:
where is jm's website, and how do I get there?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:15:15 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: honesty
Subject: JM's also here!
Message:
You can even talk to me !!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:22:35 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: What time do you call this??
Message:
You can even talk to me !!!

Good morning Jean-Michel!

But isn't it 05:20 am in France??

John also up too late.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 23:14:59 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: honesty
Subject: JM' also here!
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 20:41:55 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: honesty
Subject: Re: JM website
Message:
Further to Sir Dave's reply - the link is always at the top of this page - it's called DLM/EV Papers.

John the helpful

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 19:42:11 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: honesty
Subject: Re: JM website
Message:
To go directly to his site:

Click here to go to Jean-Michel's site

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 18:47:50 (EST)
From: youngold
Email: None
To: to JW
Subject: to JW
Message:
JW... you referred to 'J M's website '... where is that. thanks
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 19:31:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: youngold
Subject: www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/1151
Message:
That's the first page of it. There are links to all kinds of good stuff Jean Michel has compiled.

Question for webmaster: Would it be possible to get a link to Jean Michel's site on the forum, like Roger's House of Drek?

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 20:46:47 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: J-M's Site Link is Above!
Message:
Question for webmaster: Would it be possible to get a link to Jean Michel's site on the forum, like Roger's House of Drek?

Err... It is!!!! It's called DLM/EV Papers and its at the top of this page!!!

John the repetitive.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 13:03:09 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Thanks
Message:
I didn't recognize the title. Glad the link is here-- it's a very valuable website.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 19:39:25 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The site has moved and it's here
Message:
Jean-Michel's website has moved.

Click here to go to Jean-Michel's site

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 05:26:31 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Premie hints that M is Godlike
Message:
In a thread below, URL quotes Susan as follows:-

I think he owes me an apology. Thinking he was God certainly through a monkey wrench into my life.

URL responded:-

Seriously, do you know what God is such that you can say Maharaji doesn't hold a key to knowing him. If he does hold such a key, which is what his supporters say, what does that make him?

Yes, good question - what does that make him? But let's examine this. Whatever it makes him, it's based on M having this 'key'. Now if this key is knowing these 4 techniques, well I also have it, so what does that make me? OK - I got them from Mahatma Gitanand who was working for M. But Satpal also teaches these techniques, and didn't get them from Prempal. So 'what does that make him?'

But maybe I've misunderstood URL. Maybe it's not these techniques that URL means when he refers to the 'key'. Maybe it's something else, something divine, something unique. Maybe URL believes that Maharaji is the one and only, unique, living, Perfect Master of our time.

So URL, please clarify what you mean by the 'key'.

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 08:12:10 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: JHB
Subject: My poll results about God
Message:
In my poll in which ex-premies and premies were asked if they believed God existed, the poll results showed that less than half these people believed that God existed. This is below the normal average for the general population which usually shows over 70% of people believing that God exists.

I would say from this, that Maharaji certainly doesn't hold any key to God.

Most of the people who received knowledge would NOT have been atheists when they received knowledge and yet, years later those believers in God have become atheists or agnostics despite having followed Maharaji and practised his knowledge. This surely is a most revealing statistic about Maharaji's claims to bring people to God.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 08:51:10 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: My poll results about God
Message:
David,

Don't you think that most people who 'believe' in God don't even think of him half the time? They just fulfill whatever religious obligations they were taught as a child. The rest of the time they focus on their wordly business. We, on the other hand, were serious seekers. It was our number one priority.

Isn't it interesting how so many of us have lost our faith in the wake of that search? What does that say about God, that so many people abandoned their search and concluded that the bastard doesn't even exist? I don't think Maharaji is uniquely responsible for this. I think ANYBODY who's searched through ANY venue has a good chance of losing their faith as a result. God's not exactly waiting with open arms for those who wish to know him.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 09:01:56 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: My poll results about God
Message:
I agree but Jerry, the fact that you call God a bastard does imply that you believe he could exist! But that's just an aside.

I think Maharaji DOES have more responsibility here because he claimed to be God. Perhaps more ex-Moonies or ex-Scientologists still believe God exists than the ex-premies.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 14:01:58 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: After years of satsang how could we believe in god or religion?
Message:
The thought about God came to me yesterday as to why so many ex-premies might be atheists. After years of attending satsang in which all organized religions are ridiculed and heavily discounted (rites and rituals) and where Maharaji is held up to be the one and only God it is difficult to return to your mainstream religions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 16:52:47 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Years of satsang!
Message:
Roger, consider these verses from Psalms:

By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down, yea, we wept, when we remembered Zion.

We hanged our harps upon the willows in the midst thereof.

For they that carried us away captive required of us a song; and they that wasted us required of us mirth, saying, Sing us one of the songs of Zion.

How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

If I forget thee, O Jerusalem, let my right hand forget her cunning.

If I do not remember thee, let my tonge cleave to the roof of my mouth; if I prefer not Jerusalam above my chief joy.

Psalm 137: 1-6

(King James Version) I don't know what the newer wacky translations say.

The essence of all WAS revealed!

DD

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 17:34:29 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Sorry but this makes more sense
Message:

But for to tellen yow of his array,

His hors were goode, but he was nat gay.

Of fustian he wered a gypon

Al bismotered with his habergeon,

For he was late ycome from his viage,

And wente for to doon his pilgrymage.

Taken from Geoffrey Chaucer's 'The Knight's Tale'.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:30:38 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave - Is this English? (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 03:50:26 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Here's what it is
Message:
It's fourteenth century English. Chaucer's main literary work, 'Canterbury Tales' predates William Shakespeare (Edward de Vere) and is classical English literature.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 09:19:11 (EST)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Sir Dave - Then what's he saying? (nt)
Message:
nt
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 10:14:45 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: A rough translation
Message:
But for to tellen yow of his array,

But to tell you about his dress

His hors were goode, but he was nat gay.

His horse was good but he wasn't gay (flamboyant)

Of fustian he wered a gypon

He wore a rusty chain mail

Al bismotered with his habergeon,

Covered by his cloak

For he was late ycome from his viage,

For he had hurried from his duties

And wente for to doon his pilgrymage.

To go on his pilgimage (to Canterbury)

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 17:25:40 (EST)
From: Roger eDrekle
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Thanks, but...
Message:
I simply cannot, will not read that kind of stuff.

Anytime I even glimpse a thee or thine fashioned by the hands of man I am instantly struck dumb and blind. Medical science has studied my condition and I am considered an N of One case for which there is no answer.

Now, if you can talk a little human sacrifice I might be able to read that.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 14:40:50 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: After years of satsang how could we believe in god or religion?
Message:
That's very true Mr eDrek. I mean, we poured scorn on the Christians, Muslims and even the Ganges bathing Hindus because we reckognised the real Mackoy when he came. When it turned out that our real god turned out to be a fake, what have we left?

Spiritualism perhaps? Is-there-anybody-there? stuff. Or maybe Sun worshippers or Wicker? There's not much left, is there.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 11:13:07 (EST)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Maharaji's claim to be God
Message:
OK, David, I believe that God could exist, but I don't believe that he does. Big difference. Also, I never believed that Maharaji was God. I believed he was a prophet of his, THE prophet in fact. But I was hesitant to call him God, himself. I just thought he was a model of what I, myself, should aspire toward and could achieve with his help. I thought that Maharaji wanted me to reach the same lofty heights of enlightenment that he himself had, not be worshipped as God.

It was different for me than it was for you. I didn't hear much talk about Maharaji claiming to be God. In the book 'Who Is Guru Maharaji', Maharaji was asked, 'Why do people say you are God?', Maharaji replied, 'People see something in me and say I am God'. That's about the extent of the claims I was aware of where Maharaji claimed to be God, he didn't say he was, he didn't say he wasn't, he'd let people make of him what they wanted to.

I didn't get that deep into it in the seventies, just went to some satsang now and again. I received Knowledge in 1980, and didn't see Maharaji, in person, until a couple of years later, where he outright told somebody that he wasn't God. Some guy stood up and told Maharaji that he was refused Knowledge because he couldn't say that Maharaji was the Lord. Maharaji told him, 'The next time somebody asks you if I'm the Lord, you tell him NO. And if he asks who told you that, you tell him I DID'. Well, that puts that question to rest is what I figured. Maharaji's not the Lord. He said so himself.

So, back to your contention that Maharji is more responsible because 'he claimed to be God', only some people, not all, heard those claims.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 13:17:02 (EST)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Maharaji's claim to be God
Message:
Maharaji was God throughout the seventies and early eighties and did used to actually say as much. Yes, he really did say that he was God. There was a period in the mid seventies when he attempted to not be God but he soon gave up that idea when he realised the money wouldn't come in as thick and fast.

When he returned as God after that mid seventies 'humanitarian' period, he was more God than ever before and would frighten the living daylights out of initiators and ashram premies, with his threats and heaviness.

He said over and over again that he was God come to earth in human form and that it was our greatest good fortune to be able to devote our lives to him. Why did we believe it? Well it wasn't just Maharaji who was saying he was God but also a whole host of initiators, Indian Mahatmas and people in the mission like Glen Whittaker (in Britain) who he used as his mouthpiece to proclaim his glory.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 07:22:43 (EST)
From: Cynthia G.
Email: cynthia@madriver.com
To: All
Subject: Answers for URL
Message:
Hello All,

I've put just a few minutes of thinking about URls question regarding where to send people who are looking for the purpose of life. URL...I love your challenges, your question was:

" Where do you send the thirsty who sincerely want answers to the age-old question to know themselves and the reason for existence?'

URL, I've never had one occasion when someone asked me that. ( Not a everyday type of conversation) If ever asked, though, I'd tell them I don't know. I'd tell them that I'm in the process of exiting a cult lead by a fraud, named Guru Maharaj Ji, formerly known as Lord of the Universe, and now goes by 'Maharaji, who sells meditation called Knowledge' I'd tell them I don't know the answers to the great mysteries of life, I wouldn't presume to be so pompous as to say I know the answers to such questions. I would tell them about cults though, and especially to stay away from Maharaji. How's that? I don't know.

Not humility, just the plain old truth. I do have my personal beliefs, but I'm not about to share them with you!

Simple enough for you?

Cynthia

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:09:30 (EST)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Re: Answers for URL
Message:
'Maharaji, who sells meditation called Knowledge'

Dear Cynthia,

If he's selling Knowledge, than I'd like to go clothes shopping from a similar type of vendor. Seems like quite a reasonable price he charges to me ($.0000) and if you're going to come back with the idea that a person might one day buy a video or cassette for their own inspiration, save your breath.

That's true of virtually every interest that anyone would ever have in their lifetime, including golf, Chinese cooking, Jim Carrey, Dave Barry, natural childbirth, animal rights and Pro wrestling.

Potential, voluntary purchases somewhere down the line can only be described as 'selling Knowledge' by the intellectually dishonest.

If you think he's a fraud, that's your right. But try not to slaughter the facts in the process. For every person as negatively charged as you about Maharaji, there are many, many more who feel he GIVES, not sells, something that is precious to them for a lifetime. See if you can muster a little respect for them.

I wish you well, Brenda

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 20:24:22 (EST)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Good post Annie!
Message:
Are you the same Annie that used to post some time back.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 22:20:38 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: GOOD QUESTION. NOW HOW ABOUT YOU? ARE YOU 'NIL' OR NOT?
Message:
Well?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 02:17:06 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Tangent: Many, many premies?
Message:
It's so funny to read someone like Anne say that there are many, many grateful premies. Many, many? Just how many are we talking about? I would say hardly any is a more appropriate term.

I was thinking (yes, that's allowed here) about the purpose of Forum(s) and the target audience. It occurred to me that some of what has been recently said is that we need to give premies a safe place to ask questions that might get them out of Maharaji's cult.

Of course, I owe much to Forum III for it's inspiration to push me once and for all off of the proverbial fence. Nevertheless, I wonder and ask just how many premies there are and how many are sitting on the fence. If we exclude mother India aren't we talking less than 10,000?

What is the likeliehood that of these 10,000 or less that there are many fence sitters left - this assumes that those that remain are the HARDCORE? And we must assume, well we don't need to assume because we see them here, that there are HARDCORE premies that will never leave their precious Maharaji.

If it is 10,000 or less what are we talking about compared to other cults like Scientology and the Moonies and other large, successful cults.

Let's also assume that excluding India that maybe 100,000 people recieved Maharaji's Knowledge and if there are only 10,000 left we have an attrition rate of 90%. Pretty good track record you got going there, Maharaji. Many, many satisfied customers.

And then we need to ask what the rate of growth is in all countries except India. Pretty miniscule from what I've seen in Maharaji's statistics only a few years ago.

So, what are we talking about here? Should we just close up shop and sell our customer list to an eCommerce website? After all, Maharaji is just spit in the ocean.

Maharaji, you're a nobody, a freak show, a has-been, a flash in the pan. It's over, bud. Give it up. Head for the pasture.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 21:33:42 (EST)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: To Annie/Brenda
Message:
Annie/Brenda,

I don't know how much stuff you have read here. I get the feeling that this may be your first visit, so I won't bombard you with questions. But regarding money, there are many of us here who have been to many, many, fund raising meetings, where it was made clear that to be a good premie, you should help financially with his work. I believed this for many (26) years and gave a significant amount, as did many others.

And if you are interested in where the money goes, look at the plans for Maharaji's new house in Malibu on the ex-premie.org website.

But you are correct, the knowledge is free. It's available on the ex-premie site, the DLM/EV Papers site (link above) and from many other teachers including SatPal Maharaji (Maharaji's elder brother - links to his site also available).

There's nothing unique about the meditation techniques, and the experience of meditation does not come from Maharaji.

If you are interested in other reasons to suspect Maharaji, please let me know. There are many:-)

All the best,

John.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 14:12:30 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Cynthia G.
Subject: Send the seekers anywhere except to Maharaji
Message:
Indeed! URL sits back coyingly asking this seemingly innocent question knowing that he has the sacred and holy Superman comic book as revealed by the Living Master of the Time (wow! that's powerful stuff, there's magic in them words.) He might even think that some of us are still so programmed that we might be susceptible to consider sending the innocents to Maharaji.

URL is the perfect example of a hardcore premie who believes that Maharaji is the Key, is the Lord of the Universe.

I would send seekers of truth to a suicide cult before I would ever recommend Maharaji.

Hey, URL, how many people a week do you satsang? Or are we the only ones? I exited the cult almost two years ago and I couldn't tell anybody about it for years.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 16:58:22 (EST)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: You will be back
Message:
Maharaji has said many times that he has 'never lost a premie' and that if one wants to, one should seek happiness and truth anywhere else, but that when you get tired of looking, come back to him and he has it. And you eventually will.

All you ex-premies do not have that understanding. You think you are away from Maharaji, thinking for yourselves, but he still has his string attached to you and will pull you back to him in due course to that love, that truth, and that experience. It isn't your choice, it's his grace.

After all, without Maharaji and that love, that truth, that peace, that experience, and without that understanding, we are nothing more than rat excrement.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 17:31:08 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Not according to Catweasel
Message:
I've got what I would say is official word from Catweasel on the Anything Goes forum that I've been rejected from returning to Knowledge. Not sure what crimes I've committed.

Thanks, though as you've helped clear up what has been a very long mystery for me as you state:

You think you are away from Maharaji, thinking for yourselves, but he still has his string attached to you and will pull you back to him...

And for all these years I thought it was an untreatable tapeworm I picked up when I was in India.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 19:33:25 (EST)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Catweasel is a confused/bongo premie
Message:
Isn't it obvious?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 01:52:28 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I thought that Catweasel was blocked?
Message:
I thought that I was free of Catweasel! And here he is.

Bad kitty! Go back to Anything Goes and stay there!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Nov 04, 1999 at 05:52:34 (EST)
From: Ned Kelly
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: I thought that Catweasel was blocked?
Message:
No, just mindlessly and childishly censored, but who gives a shit!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, Nov 03, 1999 at 15:49:36 (EST)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Where that Catweasel go?
Message:
Oh, cripes. I hate when this happens. Having an imaginary conversation is always the precursor to a grande mal seizure and another trip to the hospital and a battery of ECT.

No, mama, no! I don't want to kiss grandma good-bye. I'm not going to do it! No, mama!

Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, Nov 02, 1999 at 16:57:02 (EST)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: You will be back
Message:
Maharaji has said many times that he has 'never lost a premie' and that if one wants to, one should seek happiness and truth anywhere else, but that when you get tired of looking, come back to him and he has it.

All you ex-premies do not have that understanding. You think you are away from Maharaji, thinking for yourselves, but he still has his string attached to you and will pull you back to him in due course to that love, that truth, and that experience. It isn't your choice, it's his grace.

After all, without Maharaji and that love, that truth, that peace, that experience, and without that understanding, we are nothing more rat excrement.

Return to Index -:- Top of Index