Cap'n Crunch -:- I tried that phone number -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 09:37:01 (EDT)

__ supergrass -:- part of it -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:30:48 (EDT)

__ __ JW -:- Translation? -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 12:26:05 (EDT)

__ JW -:- Remember 'THAT FEAR' -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 11:59:17 (EDT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Analyzing Rawat -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 04:07:14 (EDT)

__ __ Monmot -:- Re: Remember 'THAT FEAR' -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 16:31:45 (EDT)

__ __ Know It All -:- Re: I Remember 'THAT FEAR' -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 12:20:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ JW -:- Re: I Remember 'THAT FEAR' -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 12:53:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: I Remember 'THAT FEAR' -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 01:29:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- first Love...then fear -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 12:45:54 (EDT)

__ bb -:- calling the heart of darkness -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 13:11:48 (EDT)

__ __ Gail -:- Re: calling the heart of darkness -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 20:28:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ bb -:- Re: calling the heart of darkness -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 09:00:55 (EDT)

__ __ Susan -:- Great response BB -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 13:23:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ bb -:- one of a kind lord -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 17:36:36 (EDT)

__ Cap'n Dave -:- Re: I tried that phone number -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 10:11:02 (EDT)

__ __ Cap'n Crunch -:- Re: I tried that phone number -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 07:23:05 (EDT)

Roger eDrek -:- Malibu Marble Palace frm outerspace -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 07:12:26 (EDT)

Deerskin -:- marolyn' s letter -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 06:31:03 (EDT)

__ *>*...b -:- marolyn' s letter -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 07:41:07 (EDT)

__ Enough -:- Re: marolyn' s letter -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 18:29:40 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- Glad you're here ! -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 18:01:27 (EDT)

__ Jim -:- Hi, Deer -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:13:12 (EDT)

__ Many R--No Cake -:- Re: marolyn' s letter -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:04:33 (EDT)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Your hatred for Maharji. -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 21:20:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- You sign your life away, M does the rest. Some deal... -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 00:26:27 (EDT)

__ __ __ Let them eat cake -:- Re: Your hatred for Maharji. -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 20:37:59 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Let them eat cake. -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 10:54:18 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- faulty foundations -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 00:23:20 (EDT)

__ __ __ Jim -:- Don't 12 step me, brother Dog -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 22:05:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ CdM -:- Sightless and Thoughtless -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 07:09:34 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Sightless and Thoughtless? -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 10:35:43 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- I'm not trying to, brother Jim -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 00:54:41 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- I can't help but like you, Dog -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 20:05:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: I can't help but like you, Dog -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 10:41:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: I can't help but like you, Dog -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:38:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: I can't help but like you, Dog -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 19:31:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ CdM -:- Nothing comes Free, Dog -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 06:53:24 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Why don't you TRY -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 02:16:52 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Deerskin -:- Glad you answered -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 07:43:13 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ deerskin -:- Re: Glad you answered -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:27:35 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- for deerskin -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 13:03:15 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Glad you answered -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 09:30:12 (EDT)

Mili -:- Atlas Shrugged -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 02:45:15 (EDT)

__ Bili -:- Re: Atlas Shrugged -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 13:21:21 (EDT)

__ Jean-Michel -:- telling 'nice' stories .... -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 05:42:23 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Atlas Shrugged -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 04:42:32 (EDT)

Jim -:- Hey, remember that Nigerian guy? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 22:52:52 (EDT)

__ bb -:- Re: Hey, remember that Nigerian guy? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 22:54:56 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Re: Hey, remember that Nigerian guy? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 22:59:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ bb -:- Re: Hey, remember that Nigerian guy? -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:28:13 (EDT)

Jim -:- A few questions for Url et al. -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 20:59:20 (EDT)

__ URL -:- Re: A few questions for Url et al. -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 21:09:33 (EDT)

__ __ Ben Lurging -:- Re: A few questions for Url et al. -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 15:26:06 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Yeah, he's humble, alright -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 21:58:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deputy Frog -:- Reality? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:16:26 (EDT)

Joel -:- Foundation: Simplicity -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 16:22:25 (EDT)

__ Jerry -:- Re: Foundation: Simplicity -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:44:36 (EDT)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Foundation: Simplicity -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:01:30 (EDT)

__ __ General secretary -:- One Simplicity -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:52:57 (EDT)

__ Bill -:- Good start, now, what is next step? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:41:11 (EDT)

__ __ The General Manager -:- Maybe it gets better -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 01:01:03 (EDT)

__ Nigel -:- They'd like it at ELK... -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:26:55 (EDT)

__ __ kmdarling -:- Re: They'd like it at ELK... -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:20:40 (EDT)

__ __ __ Nigel -:- Whatever gets you through the night... -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:59:34 (EDT)

__ LdM -:- Re: Foundation: Simplicity -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 16:39:49 (EDT)

Dr. OCTO888 -:- PERFICIAM (I shall accomplish) -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 14:31:21 (EDT)

Roger eDrek -:- Another Microsoft IE 5 security bug -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:32:47 (EDT)

__ Mw -:- i don't even use ie unexplorer -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 15:41:54 (EDT)

__ Thick as a plank -:- Re: Another Microsoft IE 5 security bug -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 15:06:46 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- EV/Rawat screening system -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 03:42:16 (EDT)

__ Deputy Dog -:- Re: EV/Rawat screening system -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:19:49 (EDT)

__ URL -:- Re: EV/Rawat screening system -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:11:26 (EDT)

__ __ Nigel -:- The peace of God which passeth all understanding... -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 06:56:24 (EDT)

__ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: EV/Rawat screening system -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:52:59 (EDT)

__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Anal details? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:02:28 (EDT)

__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Anal details indeed! -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:41:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Anal details? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:48:33 (EDT)

__ __ __ URL -:- What can I say -- you're a real wizard (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:13:55 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- That's it in a nutshell, JM -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:52:31 (EDT)

__ __ __ URL -:- Re: That's it in who's nutshell? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:30:08 (EDT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- Great analysis -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 05:47:07 (EDT)

__ __ Zac -:- When you hit a nerve -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:24:19 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- Warning - this is serious! -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:11:03 (EDT)

__ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Warning - this is serious! -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:33:37 (EDT)

__ Roger eDrek -:- No, it went completely according to plan, my plan! Ha! Ha! Haaaa! -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:49:26 (EDT)

__ __ Mr Waveley -:- You'll be laughing on the other side of your face -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 05:04:59 (EDT)

__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: No, it went completely according to plan, my plan! Ha! Ha! Haaaa! -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:52:04 (EDT)

__ __ __ The General Manager -:- Re: No, it went completely according to plan, my plan! Ha! Ha! Haaaa! -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 02:57:12 (EDT)

__ Grace -:- English Pounds (ot) -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 16:49:29 (EDT)

__ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: English Pounds (ot) -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 19:25:33 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- A new game (lila) -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:38:37 (EDT)

__ Miss Led -:- Re: A new game (lila) -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 15:30:47 (EDT)

__ Susan -:- good things I have learned in the cult? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:49:22 (EDT)

__ __ Jim -:- Yes, I've carried that with me too -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 23:29:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- My striptease phase -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 05:17:55 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Any Relation to The Full Monty? (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 10:55:08 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- If you send me a picture of you then I'll ***Best*** your post (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 05:50:57 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You've got it -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 21:16:21 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- A natural for the pole-vault..? -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 10:17:07 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Have I got a match for you! -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:56:47 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Nice tits - shame about the boat race -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 05:29:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ __ Mae West -:- Are You Happy To See Me, Or Is That A Shotgun In Your Pocket (nt) :-)) -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 21:45:04 (EDT)

__ __ Many Recipes--No Cake -:- Re: good things I have learned in the cult? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 22:48:41 (EDT)

__ __ Grace -:- To Susan Re: 'Bad Premies' gs I have learned in the cult? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 16:59:58 (EDT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- Re: To Susan 'Bad Premies' gs I have learned in the cult? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 17:11:16 (EDT)

Jim -:- Yes, well what are friends for? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:44:26 (EDT)

__ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Yes, well what are friends for? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:36:02 (EDT)

__ JW -:- Re: Yes, well what are friends for? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 15:27:37 (EDT)

__ __ kmdarling -:- More thanks to my “Old Friend” -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:46:26 (EDT)

__ __ __ Old Friend -:- Re: More thanks to my “Old Friend” -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 06:55:25 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Not A Friend -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 23:41:00 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ kmdarling -:- Re: More thanks to my “Old Friend” -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:01:01 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Jim -:- So Maharaji's got 3rd world pets -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 14:59:49 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The acid test -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 14:52:51 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Great responses to Katie's dear old friend -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:11:45 (EDT)

__ __ __ Susan -:- beautifully said Katie -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 16:54:11 (EDT)

__ Sir Dave -:- It's a perfect business -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 12:00:14 (EDT)

__ __ Liandra -:- Let's find out how he does it! -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:42:14 (EDT)

__ __ __ JW -:- Let's Go -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:55:50 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Road Trip! -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 13:55:54 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Liandra -:- Re: Let's Go -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:50:39 (EDT)

__ __ __ __ Liandra -:- Re: Let's Go -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:46:11 (EDT)

Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 09:37:01 (EDT) From: Cap'n Crunch Email: sitting.here@in.limbo To: All Subject: I tried that phone number Message:

Last night I tried the phone number that was posted here a few days ago. It was about 10 pm here so allowing for time differences across the atlantic I suppose it must have been sometime around the middle of the day in the US. I didn't have anything planned. It was an impulse. I don't really know what I expected. After all this was a number that was likely to be either incorrect, closed down or maybe I didn't have the correct international codes. So I dialled it just curious, not really expecting anything (except maybe some farmer somewhere at random telling me 'wrong number'!) But it rang. I was a bit shocked. I had no idea what I was going to say or even why I was phoning, except pure curiosity. After a few rings I got the very same message that was quoted here - with dial 2 for Mr rawat etc. Scary - I could hardly believe it. So I pressed the 2 for Mr rawat with adrenalin pumping. It would only be an answerphone anyway, wouldn't it. Then the phone was picked up! A woman's voice said 'yes?' and there was a long pause. I asked if Mr rawat was there. I can't remember the reply. There was another long pause. I was sort of expecting more of a response from the other end - either 'who are you, what do you want' or maybe 'Good afternoon, how may I help you'. I don't know who was on the phone. I assumed at the time that it was a staff member but afterwards it occured to me that it may have been 'Mrs rawat' Anyway, I started talking. I said that I was at Houston all those years ago and that I believed tht Mr Rawat had been there also? No response, just another long silence. So I said that I'd heard that these days he says that he never wanted to be treated as something special, he is just a teacher, but that when I saw him in Houston he really seemed to be loving all the attention. I laughed. Another long silence. Well, afterwards of course it's always easy to think of things that could have been said but I just said that I was going now and the voice finally said 'thankyou' and I put the phone down. I felt very shaky. It was hard to believe that I had just telephoned into maharaji's house and spoken to someone. I wondered if perhaps rawat had been in the same room as the person who answered the phone - 'can *you* answer that one for me, I'm busy'. Afterwards, when I went to bed, I felt frightened. Even after 25 years the fear that m can get me, somehow, is still there. The fear that maybe, just maybe, he really does know everything I am doing and really can harm me. god the destroyer. Or maybe that he has links with the secret services and could get the phone number traced - the CIA have fingers everywhere and someone who at the time seemed so powerful as m in the '70s would have been an obvious organisation to infiltrate. Like the Moonies were (so it's said anyway - because they are 'anti-communist'). Maybe that is why, I was thinking sleeplessly in my bed, the newspapers in england were warned off the jagdeo case for 'business reasons' - what business would that be, affecting uk newspapers, unless there are bigger players involved? That is the most mysterious aspect of the jagdeo case to date. Exactly why did a couple of muck-raking rags give up the story, not because they thought it wouldn't interest the readers but 'for business reasons'? Anyway, that's another subject - guess I've been reading too many Kennedy-conspiracy websites :) But - I really phoned maharaji and got the call answered. Bizarre.

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:30:48 (EDT) From: supergrass Email: None To: Cap'n Crunch Subject: part of it Message:

the Express has a hotshot editor with ajob to get the circulation up, then someone says they can get this journalist from this other paper, who'll bring some readers,, but this is around the time the jagdeo story is due out, and it seems that there's a conflict somewhere between getting the new readers and publishing the story. So they drop the story. But then all sorts of shit happens at the paper, and people start to say, 'maybe you shouldn't be so quick in hiring this journalist if there's this cult stink attached, we have to be careful' Maybe one of our readers here can tell us what happened next.

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 12:26:05 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: supergrass Subject: Translation? Message:

Hi Super, This is what I get from your explanation so let us know if it jives with your "understanding." Like Anth told us, a writer at the Express, I think his name is Palmer, wanted to run an expose on Jagdeo and the Maharaji cult as a result. But, at the same time, the Express wanted to hire Jonathan Crainer, to do some bogus astrology column at the Express, and knowing he is a raving cult-member, they feared he might be disuaded from doing so. So the powers that be at the Express killed the story. Are you with me so far? The writers of the proposed article on Jagdeo were mucho angry at the paper for bowing to business concerns and killing a very important story. So, and here is where I get encouraged, are you getting an indication that maybe the Express isn't going to hire Crainer and maybe will run the story after all because of all the ruckus over killing the story? Like maybe they are going to exhibit some journalistic ethics? By the way, I know newspapers in the USA often succomb to reader complaints. Perhaps some of the Brits could call the Express and complain about this situation, and threaten to write letters to the editor exposing their lack of journalistic professionalism. JW

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 11:59:17 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Cap'n Crunch Subject: Remember 'THAT FEAR' Message:

You know, Maharaji talks about THAT love, THAT peace, THAT truth, THAT BLAH BLAH BLAH. But what his cult is really based on it THAT FEAR. THAT FEAR, the remnants of which you you mention you felt when you called his phone number is the basis of the cult programming that was beaten into us when we were premies. That same FEAR is palpable in most of the premies, who cannot even gather the courage to criticize Maharaji is any way, despite huge piles of obvious evidence that he is a fraud, a deceitful liar, a revisionist, and lacking in any care or compassion for his followers beyond the money they can give him and the fix to his ego he gets when they worship him. [Not to mention his own, personal, problems with rage, greed, glutony, substance abuse, and marital infidelity.] Maharaji is just a person, a really screwed up, megalomaniac, person, but just a person. One of the first steps in getting free from him and his cult, is to defy those fears. And when you realize he is the emperor with no clothes, when you realize that you can assert your own worth and integrity and that nothing awful happens -- that's when you get free and when you start being a self-directed human being once again and repairing the damage Maharaji has done to self-esteem, the ability to think straight, and, most of all to your spirit and your soul. Sorry for this early-morning rant, but when I read how youd you described that all-familiar fear, it made me angry, once again, at the damage Maharaji has done to so many sincere, and idealistis, people. So, who do you think that is on the line who just sits there in silence when you ask questions and make comments? She seems to have been trained in the Maharaji-school of ignoring and avoiding any criticism of her 'master?' I'm sure she is just terrified of saying the wrong thing and so, in true premie-fear, she says nothing.

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 04:07:14 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: JW Subject: Analyzing Rawat Message:

I've noticed that Rawat's Freudian slip: When they find that something is being distributed to devotees, they assume the role of a devotee; and when they see that something is being offered to gods, they put on the mantle of gods. They act according to their convenience. What is the meaning of becoming a devotee? What is the meaning of becoming a student? What is the meaning of becoming empty? That is most important to realize. My Master has revealed this Knowledge to me. Such a beautiful Knowledge. And how did he give it? We were playing outside. These days lots. of aspirants are waiting there. But there was no question of aspiration. We were busy playing outside. Somebody came and said, 'He (Shri Maharaji) is calling you.' In my family there was a sort of a regulation that when he called, it means something serious. In those days, during the time of Shri Maharaji, there was a pet dog named Tommy. We were very young. And that dog used to bite everybody. He was always chained. He used to run after every one to bite them. But when Shri Maharaji came back from tours and was sitting in a chair, that dog used to sit there quietly. He (the dog) knew quite well that if he would be nasty, he would be punished. Anyway, the message came, 'He is calling. He is calling in the parlour.' Now, 'calling in the parlour' indicated something else. If he called us into the dining room, that had other significance. If he called us to the verandah, that had different implications. If he called us into the bedroom, it meant something else. But 'calling in the parlour' was a signal of very serious significance. His different calls differed in degrees in terms of the purpose and seriousness of the situation. So he called us, 'Sit down. Do you want Knowledge?' He asked. 'Yes sir,' was the answer. 'Take it. This is technique one, this is the next technique and this is another one...' He gave the techniques and then said, 'Now go away. That is all. Did you understand?' That's all. But somewhere we needed to be empty. Had there been no emptiness inside, it would have been almost impossible to understand anything. 'Go and do practice.' No tall talks. Within minutes he explained everything and then said, 'Well, go and play.' And what did we give him? I did not have even a fruit. I had nothing in the name of offering to him. First he asked, 'Do you know how to do meditation?' I replied, 'Yes.' Then he said, 'Take this and this...' But how can I describe how much grace has Maharaji showered on my life! And I know it fully well that so long as I stay a vessel of his grace, the grace would accompany me, till then. And if I cease to be the vessel, the grace would abandon me. Source : Student, Disciple or Devotee? Maharaji, Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi Vaishakhi Celebrations (Evening Session) 13th April, 1991. I guess they would be worth gathering and classifying. That's very revealing on Rawat's psychology .....

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 16:31:45 (EDT) From: Monmot Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: Remember 'THAT FEAR' Message:

When I was in college in the 70s, I worked in a mental hospital for two years. The place was loaded with men who thought they were Jesus, and with women who thought they were the Virgin Mary (even after I'd catch them in bed with each other night after night). I used to think that the only difference between them and me was that I had keys to get out at night. Then I go and get me a megalomaniacal guru and prove myself correct. On a more serious note, though, JW is correct about the necessity of facing the FEAR. One of the large ironies of my life is that in the long and arduous process of 'leaving M,' I actually became the person I wanted to be, which I thought would happen by staying with M.

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 12:20:57 (EDT) From: Know It All Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: I Remember 'THAT FEAR' Message:

the main message was fear, not love. Know It All

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 12:53:45 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Know It All Subject: Re: I Remember 'THAT FEAR' Message:

I know. Isn't it amazing? Fear is a very powerful thing, because we tend to try to protect ourselves from it, so we hide it someplace and are just amazed when it surfaces. The weakness in fear, though, is that when you drag it up into the light of day it dries up and blows away. Also, fear is dissolved with the support of others, and that's why this site is so important. The thing we have to remember is that as premies, we were abused. We were reduced to the level of children and we were abused, on a very deep, spiritual level. If you ask me, it's a whole lot worse than physical abuse. Like abused children, even after we get away from the abuser, we still have residual fear of the abuser. Also, like children, most of us repressed the fear down in some deep corner of our minds someplace. And like adults who were abused as children, it still affects out lives in very real ways, although we might not be fully aware of it. That's one of the things that is so damaging about what Maharaji did to us and why it's so important to confront the fears and see that they are based on nothing.

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 01:29:54 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: I Remember 'THAT FEAR' Message:

You know JW, I used to really lean on your posts. I imagine others do now in a similar way. It was the fear that you would dispell even though that was not the supposid topic you were talking about then. So, thanks for then, and thanks for now. bb off for a week.

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 12:45:54 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: Know It All Subject: first Love...then fear Message:

I was sucked into the cult for the love part. The loving happy premies. But fear came along soon after. The knowledge selections in which you were asked if you would cut off your head for the guru were fear inducing. The awful things that would happen if you revealed the techniques. When I left I remember showing my sister the meditation techniques. Another one of those, if I do this and I am not struck down by lightning it is a good sign. And like I have said, tearing up, burning, and drawing horns on pictures of the guru. I always wonder what premie lurkers think when they see Dreks pic of the Mala boob enhanced guru. I know I would have thought that whoever did that was going to get some special guru revenge. It is a powerful thing though, for those just leaving the cult, to see that a person can make fun of the guru in such a very insulting crude way. I have wondered if I ran into the guru on the street what I would do. I think I would confront him on the Jagdeo issue. I wanted to call that phone number too. But I didn't want to wonder if he ever got the message. That he might hear it just would not do the trick. But yes, I really would like to have my say with the guy. And treat him like the mere mortal he is. I would imagine I would still be overcoming a little cult programing fear, but I think I could do it.

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 13:11:48 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: Cap'n Crunch Subject: calling the heart of darkness Message:

Your feeling was reasonable, you were dialing with curiosity and weren't expecting to talk with someone, plus, it was an unknown woman (monica lewis?) and with all the times you sang atri, and looked at his picture with reverence, drank his foot water, heard countless hours of people satsanging your common sense into a coma, he was always away up on a throne, crown and mala, YOUR place, should you dare to even think you exist, was only as dust at his feet. Kids that are heavily abused sometimes can never break the domination of thier dad and always still insist on somehow makeing it ok and try to forgive and save someone who would be more appropriately shot. Going against all our programming in person or over the phone to m would be hard. JM was successful in a dream in injecting m with hemlock or someother kiss of death. That broke the back of the programming for him. We have been involved with the milleniums most potent pretend lord. He isnt done yet.

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 20:28:51 (EDT) From: Gail Email: None To: bb Subject: Re: calling the heart of darkness Message:

No kidding. If only we had never heard of the Lard--our lives would be quite different today, wouldn't they?

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 09:00:55 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: Gail Subject: Re: calling the heart of darkness Message:

Hi Gail, I have some of your posts printed out, your way of saying things is good, I am out of town for the work week so, hello and goodbye, I'll have some catching up to do!

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 13:23:21 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: bb Subject: Great response BB Message:

Do you really think he is the worst pretend Lord? I think that at least thus far Jones and Moon have him beat for damage done to people. I think he is just one of many charlatans conning with different versions of the same song, but he was our charlatan. How about the Children of God who prostituted themselves for Jesus? That was pretty gross too. I am not minimizing the damage M and his cult do. I just have often thought that these other cults are actually even more destructive. What are your thoughts?

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 17:36:36 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: Susan Subject: one of a kind lord Message:

-- --(I kid you not) 10 Billion (with a B) years age. If folks will buy that one, or will believe the Mormons story about finding and then loseing golden tablets that told of a civilization that existed in america after christ died and with cities and roads ect. No archieology dept at Brigham Young Momon university! Millions of belivers nontheless. So, m looks cute in the old crown shots, the rap is evolving, he is abducting all the words and religious scriptures, and, WE gave him some great video footage of his adoreing followers and his jets and homes and cars and all the ability to build the thing to be in 80 countries. No one competes. Except his brother, and he is just another hindu fraud of the normal variety. No one else is really about to wrap up this kind of package of tools to inflict on the masses of innocents like our very own lord prem rawat.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 10:11:02 (EDT) From: Cap'n Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Cap'n Crunch Subject: Re: I tried that phone number Message:

I think the lack of normal, sensible telephone answering you got was indicative of Maharaji's philosophy: Just ignore inconvenience or trouble and it might go away. But you should get a medal for bravery there, even though there's nothing to be afraid of. International calls can't be traced as yet because the tracing systems are incompatable and anyway, Maharaji's just an Indian guy who made it big in the guru-come-to-the-west business. The fact is, if anyone challenges Maharaji he just backs down. That's always been his policy. He doesn't argue but just walks away. It's frustrating but that's the way he is. Regarding the Jagdeo case; it probably has been kept out of the papers because of lack of interest in Maharaji and his cult. I mean, nobody knows who he is and if you mention his name to anyone they think you're talking about the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi who the Beatles saw.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 07:23:05 (EDT) From: Cap'n Crunch Email: None To: Cap'n Dave Subject: Re: I tried that phone number Message:

Thanks to all for supportive words. It really was a wierd feeling when I called. I'm now on holiday, posting from a cyber caff, and feeling much steadier about it all. I always was easily scared which is probably one reason I needed to join something that offered me safety when I was younger. And why I love conspiracy theory sites but not horror films! Anyone get the Cap'n Crunch reference though? Hint - think Blue Boxes :) Cheers all.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 07:12:26 (EDT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: All Subject: Malibu Marble Palace frm outerspace Message:

Well, it's not the best picture in the world. I'm sure that the military gets to see the poolside nudity. But, you may perceive the enormity of where a lot of premie money and Amtext money went. Well, I tried to post the link directly, but there's some strange stuff in the URL that it don't work. Therefore, it's up to you to goto Terraserver and click the Advanced Find link. In the new page goto the Geo Coordinate Search and enter: North 34.2.40 (hours, minutes, seconds) West 118.53.35 (be sure to select WEST) Then you will get the image with most of it being the ocean (diamonds dancing...) Ok, this is really a goofy way to get there, but... Now, click the Up Arrow to go North. Wait for new image. Now click the mouse low on the image at approximately on the ruler on the right at about the value of 0. Wait for new image. Now click the mouse in the image anywhere near the lower right hand corner. Ok, it's up to you now. The image is made up of 6 images (two rows down and three columns across.) The Palace is in the far right column in the upper row. However, clicking on it will screw you up. The Palace is diamond shaped with The Marble Palace is at the end of its own ridge that looks like a finger. The ridge points down in the picture. It kind of looks like a big question mark (or is that a big "W") with a driveway at the top of the residence grounds. At this point you might try changing the image size to Medium or Large and maybe finally zoom in. Sorry, for the complexity and the round about route, but Microsoft Terraserver ain't all that hot in Version 1.0. Ok, who knows where the other Residences are?

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 06:31:03 (EDT) From: Deerskin Email: None To: All Subject: marolyn' s letter Message:

Hi! I am the recipient of Marolyn' letter.First of all I type very slowly.That' s one of the reason I never got in before.The 15 plus years I spent in Rawat' s bullshit made a wreck of my life and it took a lot of energy and tough fighting to recover and rebuilt a life.Then I feel now a strong repulsion for the guy and even though I got sometimes on the site to read some thrteads, I also wondered how you guys can still spend time talking about this bastard. My own tendency has been to look completly elsewhere.It is true too that it is recomforting to realize that I was not the only one to be conned and to express anger.Right now anyway I am unable to do it in an elaborate fashion.I am more in a South Parkish mood;Cartman's way of expression is the one which suits me best when I think of this fat blob.Fuck you Maharaji ( what a stupid name to choose ); and fuck you too Marolyn!

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 07:41:07 (EDT) From: *>*...b Email: None To: Deerskin Subject: marolyn' s letter Message:

Hello Deerskin, I dont know if you realize how much good you can do some people that are still really stuck. If you will tell at least SOME of your story of what you have seen of prem rawat and his dealings with others and his behaviours off the throne. Please consider writing it down using a pen and then let JM or someone type it in to the forum for use on the website. Some of us have only recently left and others here cannot make the mental break yet. Like you said 'It took a lot of energy and tough fighting to recover and rebuild a life.' Please help some others do the same by telling some part of your story. Especially personal details of his behaviours. Thanks for posting the letter, it helped a great deal.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 18:29:40 (EDT) From: Enough Email: None To: Deerskin Subject: Re: marolyn' s letter Message:

Hi Deerskin, Just wanted you to know how helpful to me it was when JM posted Marolyn's letter to you. When I realized she was just pulling a con job on you to hush up the problem, it really helped me finally understand MR. SLIMEBALL RAWAT really is just out for himself. Thank you. I was trapped in cult from 1974-1996 and still have lots to recover from as well. I find that posting when I feel like it is very therapeutic for me without regards to how others respond to it. After all we spent to many years in that shit, secretly concerned with how other premies viewed our supposedly personal experience. I've had just about ENOUGH of that bullshit. I hope to see you post again but only when you feel like it.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 18:01:27 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Deerskin Subject: Glad you're here ! Message:

Do you have any idea of what I've got in your name? Your letter made quite a stirr everytime it's been discussed here. Maybe you're already aware of this. I hope you're fine.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:13:12 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deerskin Subject: Hi, Deer Message:

Dear Deer, Nice to hear from you. Your post is funny and you raise a good question, the same one, in fact, that many of our premie friends keep asking: why do we bother? I think that perhaps, rightly or wrongly, pushing the cult out of our lives can be a kind of mobilizing phenomenon which can't help but grow into an identifying one as well. Who am I? Well, I'm not an ex-con, I'm not a child-of-an-alcoholic. I'm not a refugee. But I am a former cult member. And, as such, it feels kind of good to keep scratching against the cult. Maybe one day it'll even fall over.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:04:33 (EDT) From: Many R--No Cake Email: None To: Deerskin Subject: Re: marolyn' s letter Message:

Thanks for foring over the letter. It is very insightful. I am glad to hear you have been able to rebuild your life. I have made little progress myself. The fat fuck is still heavily on my mind. He is everywhere and in everything. I wish he were dead, although I'm not up for the job.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 21:20:00 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Deer, Enough, J-M... Subject: Your hatred for Maharji. Message:

Deerskin, Enough, J-M, Jim, Many R: I don't get it. In this thread alone you have referred to M as a fat fuck, a bastard, a fat blob, Mr. Slimeball, and I heard 'wish he was dead,' and bullshit. What? What? I got more out of Knowledge and M than I ever gave. I'm glad I have K. I meditate and it centers me, I feel like I have an anchor, it helps me 'see' clearly. I figure Knowledge was a DEAL. I'm glad I have K and your hatred of M baffles me. As they say in 12 Step Programs, 'Take what you like and leave the rest.' DD

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 00:26:27 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.yk To: Deputy Dog Subject: You sign your life away, M does the rest. Some deal... Message:

figure Knowledge was a DEAL. I'm glad I have K and your hatred of M baffles me. As they say in 12 Step Programs, 'Take what you like and leave the rest.' What does M 'help you see clearly'? ...

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 20:37:59 (EDT) From: Let them eat cake Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: Your hatred for Maharji. Message:

You are truly insane. Think for a minute. How many years have you been globe-trotting after Maharaji against your will? How often have you given your hard-earned money and time (that won't be coming back) for this lying bastard when you didn't really want to. How many times has your mind critized him and the trip but you quickly wiped it away as your evil mind. Remember this: Premise #1: Maharaji is the Living Lord. Premise #2: You are one of his lucky, chosen ones. Premise #3: Who are you to deny anything your Lord wants. Premise #4: You must surrender the reigns of your life. You must turn away from your worldly wants and desires. Premise #4: Everyday you are realizing your true self. You have a divine purpose to help Maharaji to save the world. Where does all this bullshit fit in if MJ is not the Lord and his message is always the same. After you've heard it once, why do you need the repeat performance? BECAUSE YOU'RE STILL BRAINWASHED. It suits MJ ultimate purpose of using you to get high and get at your purse strings. After all, gold toilets and the like don't come cheap.

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 10:54:18 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Let them eat cake Subject: Let them eat cake. Message:

Let, There was a film quite popular in my town in the 70s called 'Rocky Horror Picture Show.' I can distinctly remember three midnight viewings, people dressed up (not me), that familiar pungent smell in the air, quite a scene. There was a song in that film that entitled 'Stuck in the Time Warp Again.' Why do I mention this? Because that's where you are. You are stuck in a 70s time warp. And you've got company on this site. Things change! DD

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 00:23:20 (EDT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: faulty foundations Message:

DD: Things change sometimes because they were based on faulty foundations and in order to keep the true believers in line, you must erect a new false foundation.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 22:05:52 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Don't 12 step me, brother Dog Message:

Isn't the 12-step stuff all premised on personal responsibility? Righting all the wrongs you've inflicted on others? Even going so far as to contact people from your past who you might have hurt somehow and owning up? Maharaji is the antithesis of that, isn't he? Anyway, you say K helps you 'see clearly'. Then why is it so hard for you to see that ex-cult members have a bone to pick with their former 'Master'? How many 'Masters' have you had in your life, dog?

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 07:09:34 (EDT) From: CdM Email: None To: Jim Subject: Sightless and Thoughtless Message:

Anyway, you say K helps you 'see clearly'. Then why is it so hard for you to see that ex-cult members have a bone to pick with their former 'Master'? How many 'Masters' have you had in your life, dog? -- Good point Jim, why are there so many premies who don't give a flying fuck about all their old pals who've been left bleeding and wounded in action? I'm saddened. Best... Charlie

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 10:35:43 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: CdM Subject: Sightless and Thoughtless? Message:

CdM, 'Left bleeding and wounded in action '? You see, this is stuff I don't get. You guys just back from East Timor? DD

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 00:54:41 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: I'm not trying to, brother Jim Message:

Jim, Maharaji hasn't hurt ME or 'done me wrong.' Not in my opinion he hasn't. He goes around the world giving Knowledge to people, making a lot of people happy, making me happy. Helping me 'see' who I really am. Seems like a good deal to me. I'm getting more out of it than I put in. You're entitled to your opinion of M. The outright hatred for him that I see on this site disturbs me though, because I honestly don't understand it. How many'Masters' have I had in my life? I see M more as a friend than a Master. I do get bossed around by my wife and children though. Obviously you've been extremely hurt by M and you eloquently express that on this site. And on some very fundamental level that pains me, because I can't see why. I've read your Journey and your posts. I just don't understand the 'why' behind your point of view. I've seen friends fall in love, marry and then divorce, and who now hate each other's guts and drag their kids into it. Sad. 'Take what you like and leave the rest,' is just a skillful way of dealing with sadness. I'm not trying to 12 step you, I'm trying to 12 step me. I'm just trying to make some sense out of all of this. DD

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 20:05:52 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: I can't help but like you, Dog Message:

How can I respond with anything but respect to a post like that? I can't. Thanks for your comments. Dog, if you're sincerely trying to understand what animates me, watch the Lord of the Universe video. I have to assume you weren't there then, especially given your apparent indifference to the 'Master' issue. I gave the guy my whole heart, Dog, and eight years of my life. I might as well have gone to a prison camp, my life was so restricted. Indeed, on a mental level, I really did try to obliterate 'Jim' for a good part of those eight years, exactly as Rawat commanded me to! To now realize that he was just blowing smoke -- that he's not the Lord and he did not create me solely to serve him (ideas he hammered into my head) -- makes me feel like I've been had in a terrible way. He got my time, my money and my heart and now he won't return my calls. It's that simple.

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 10:41:14 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: I can't help but like you, Dog Message:

Jim, If people can get an audience with the Pope, I think you deserve an audience with M. I also think they should frisk you first. DD

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:38:52 (EDT) From: Mickey Moss Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: I can't help but like you, Dog Message:

DD: Re: 'If people can get an audience with the Pope, I think you deserve an audience with M. I also think they should frisk you first. ' I am bemused at the thought that M is analogous to the pope. In what possible sense? If a pope behaved like M he'd be excommed, and if not the Protestant world would openly, and unabashedly, refer to him as 'anti-Christ.' Catholics, at least, have some standards. (This is not to be construed as an anti-catholic remark.) -MM

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 19:31:25 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: I can't help but like you, Dog Message:

Funny. Thanks.

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 06:53:24 (EDT) From: CdM Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Nothing comes Free, Dog Message:

'Seems like a good deal to me. I'm getting more out of it than I put in'. -- DD, I'm getting sick to my stomach listening to premies say things like this. Are you proud of yourself that you give so little. I have always felt that if I love someone I wanted to give myself to them. I've been with my wife for 15 years and hope that we go on a lot longer. I know that that will only be acheived by giving to that relationship. Any real relationship involves effort from both participants. In the real world to sit smugly thinking you've got a good deal on account of how little you give compared to what your partner is giving is a recipe for shit. You mention your wife and kids. They are the only ones who love you DD, come to your senses. They are the real ones, give your love to them. This maragi business is a lucky rabbits foot you're stroking. In the back of your mind you feel that if everthing goes to fuck you'll still have this beautiful clear thing to save you. It's a rabbit's foot. He couldn't care less. He doesn't know you exist! I keep hearing premies sounding off about this wonderful thing and all the beautiful feeling it gives them. But can you tell me why mostly they're telling me this through a bottle of whiskey or ten pints of beer or half an ounce of hash or three or four lines of coke. Most of them I know only seem to get round to meditation when they're so totally fucked up they can't take another hit of anything else. Pass the aspirin and a beragon. It's the last resort. If it was so bloody fantastic they'd be doing it all the time. While I was at my peek of devotion I gave myself to this experience and to Rawatt. I got a kick in the teeth. Premies tell me I shouldn't have done service if it hurt so much. Well you tell me who the fuck would do anything then if that's the way you should think. Eventually I got so beat up I came to my senses. Most premies I know who talk like that didn't give or do much ever. They were always hedging their bets. I think it's like this. There are those premies who did a lot of service and got fucked up and there are those who didn't do much service at all and feel quite cool. The 'cool' ones are the ones I know who are still with it. So what about the ones who did a lot of service but DIDN'T get fucked up you may ask. Well I reckon it's like this... There aren't any of those kind. You get fucked up OR you get fucked up. Some fuckheads jump ship and others stick with it and sink deeper in the shit. This is possibly straying from the point but... I recently met with a longtime devotee who still does a lot of service. I was horrified at what a total mess of a personality she is. At a party where I met her she was continually transmitting bizarre sexual signals but could hardly talk for alcohol. My wife was pissed off by her. At last, totally smashed, somebody dumped her in a taxi. When she was gone I heard someone say 'I don't think she's got any money to pay the fare'. Typical. On the way home somebody told me she works as a psychoanalyst. It's pathetic isn't it? Get REAL, get STRONG! Take back what he's taken from you. You'll realize why we call him SHITHEAD. Yours sincerly... Charlie PS. Why not use your real name. It's degrading to be called dog, isn't it?

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 02:16:52 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Why don't you TRY Message:

to be more knowledgeable on this issue, and read 'The Guru Papers' for instance. This is all about ABUSE. By Rawat, his minions (are you one of them?), and persons in HIS organizations.

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 07:43:13 (EDT) From: Deerskin Email: None To: all Subject: Glad you answered Message:

nt

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:27:35 (EDT) From: deerskin Email: None To: all Subject: Re: Glad you answered Message:

Itis true that being an ex-cult member is part of my identity even though I hardly talk about it with people ( except when I feel I can really trust someone); most of the time I d'ont even dream mentionning; easy to imagine why.Yet it is 15 years of my life I can't just obliterate.I do though and it is a bit weird.There is a gap,a huge hole I d'ont talk about.It sets me apart frm people.Even if they don't see it, i feel it.I missed out a lot ,on a lot of things, focused as I was on M and K. I took very little part in life and its manifestations ,yet so sure I was right in the heart of it.I lived cut off.I gave my life, my time ,my energy,my abilities,my love,my money whenever I had some to somebody who just exploited me as much as he could.When I needed help he was never there.I was a wreck.The resentment that grew in me forced me to start daring thinking for myself; not an easy task when you have lived so many years persuaded that personnal reflexion in sinful (he calls that 'doubting').He had robbed me my brains too, my intuition.Surprising to be angry indeed! This beig said ,when I was engulfed in the M buullshit, the brainwashing was so complete, I was so sure to be righteous,..;it is very hard at that point to hear anything.So I am not trying to convince those who are still in it of anything.It is just vrey sad to be in that state;it is like death even though he uses the word 'life' so often. M is a bloody abuser a manipulator, a fucking fascist ;and moreover I don't think he himself believes in the shit he sells. Believe it or not ,that is the way I saw him the first time I saw the guy: as a vulgar salesman;it was so obvious. Too bad for me I didn't stay on that first and accurate perception.

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 13:03:15 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: deerskin Subject: for deerskin Message:

Dear Deerskin, I want to let you know I am in support of you here. When I first read Marolyn's letter I found it extremely painful to read such a personal thing on the net. Somehow, through all the satsang speak and errors in it and the general pathetic feeling in it I totally missed what it was about. JM was able to wake me up about it. I do not know if you followed the Jagdeo story but if you did you will easily see how I was able to put myself in your shoes. I realized that if I had known Marolyn I absolutley would have saught her help in regard to Jagdeo. If I had a letter like that I may very well have resorted to putting it on the net in the face of the incredible denial we have recieved that Jagdeo was a molester and that Rawat ever knew. I just was not able to see that was what the letter about through all the saddness that permeated that letter. I was too shocked buy how brainwashed Marolyn appears to be and how trapped to see that she was justifying another coverup of an abusive premie by saying to just trust M blah balh. I really do not care too much to read most of what premies write here. I was in the cult a much shorter time than you but I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. This part of our lives is embarrassing. We may leave knowing that it is all a fraud, but we do not leave knowing how to live without the fraud we built our lives around. We ex premies do share something that other people most often cannot truly understand. I think exploring our experiences in the cult, what drew us to it, what kept us there, and what made us leave, is very healing and healthy. Doing what we can to warn others about the dangers of the cult and how it works is also healing. Anyway, I am sorry you were ignored when you tried to right a wrong. I know what that is like. I hope that you continue to contribute to the site. Susan

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 09:30:12 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: deerskin Subject: Re: Glad you answered Message:

That's it girl; Tell it like it is!

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 02:45:15 (EDT) From: Mili Email: mili@cheerful.com To: All Subject: Atlas Shrugged Message:

I really liked this. It's hypothetical, but... One night a man had a dream. He dreamed he was walking along the beach with the LORD. Across the sky flashed scenes from his life. For each scene he noticed two sets of footprints in the sand: one belonging to him, and the other to the LORD. When the last scene of his life flashed before him, he looked back at the footprints in the sand. He noticed that many times along the path of his life there was only one set of footprints. He also noticed that it happened at the very lowest and saddest times in his life. This really bothered him and he questioned the LORD about it: 'LORD, you said that once I decided to follow you, you'd walk with me all the way. But I have noticed that during the most troublesome times in my life, there is only one set of footprints. I don't understand why when I needed you most you would leave me.' The LORD replied: 'My son, my precious child, I love you and I would never leave you. During your times of trial and suffering, when you see only one set of footprints, it was then that I carried you.' What about this humorous alternative? One night I had a wondrous dream. One set of footprints there was seen. The footprints of my precious LORD. But mine were not along the shore. But then some strange prints appeared. And I asked the LORD, 'What have we here?' Those prints are large and round and neat. 'But LORD, they are too big for feet.' 'My child,' He said in somber tones, 'For miles I carried you alone. I challenged you to walk in faith, But you refused and made me wait.' 'You disobeyed, you would not grow. The walk of faith, you would not know. So I got tired, I got fed up, And there I dropped you on your butt.'

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 13:21:21 (EDT) From: Bili Email: None To: Mili Subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged Message:

Boy Mili is that version ever christian! At least the types of preachers that are into condemnation. There are always those that want to dominate and they use threatening stories about god to get people to follow THIER way of presenting god. OUT with the simple love each other, god and yourself, but add in the burdenous threatening tyranical almighty frightening hideous strength. YOUR LORD GOD IS WAITING AND YOU ARE FUCKING UP HIS PLAN FOR YOU!!! Bring out the childlike fun and adventure and relationship, add in the fear based lackey of a dominating god. Better to stick with the eastern way of thinking than trade it in for this version of christianity Mili!

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 05:42:23 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Mili Subject: telling 'nice' stories .... Message:

Never made anybody a wise man, IMO. Like people telling jokes they've read or heard ... I guess this is merely showing one thing: you don't have anything to tell from YOUR OWN LIFE'S EXPERIENCE. Period.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 04:42:32 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Mili Subject: Re: Atlas Shrugged Message:

Humorous but, it smacks too much of Mr Rawat to be very funny to me. I've heard that story about the footprints loads of times and I always thought it was baloney because the one fact is that at some times in your life, if you don't do something to help yourself, nobody else will, least of all God. The drop on butt version of the story is so Rawat that if he hasn't used it then he should do. His 'teaching' consists of belittling people and attempting to illustrate how stupid and ignorant he thinks they are. If you like that kind of thing then he's for you. Personally, he makes my skin crawl and eleven years of listening to his tripe, left me with an extreme aversion to the man and everything he stands for.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 22:52:52 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Hey, remember that Nigerian guy? Message:

--

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 22:54:56 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, remember that Nigerian guy? Message:

How about paying the buck and getting the whole 317 word article. Might have some lordly dirt.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 22:59:21 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: bb Subject: Re: Hey, remember that Nigerian guy? Message:

Okay, Bill, as former treasurer of the Calgary community, I hereby give you, a humble community premie, the service opportunity of paying for this article. JSCA.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:28:13 (EDT) From: bb Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Hey, remember that Nigerian guy? Message:

Yeah but I got rid of the credit cards. Too much interest plus the wife viewed it as free money. My computer doesnt have one of those dollar slots like the porno machines you go to. OOPS! Hope Laurie isn't on line tonight.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 20:59:20 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: A few questions for Url et al. Message:

Here's a question I have for Url and any other premies who care to answer it: What did you do with Maharaji's poetry? Did you read it? All of it? How often? Once, twice maybe? How about the other bits of wisdom on his website? Did you read them also? All of them? Did you print any of this stuff out and frame it or anything? Put it on the fridge? See, it strikes me that Maharaji's own site is filled with such drivel that even the premies ignore it. Hell, they're over on ELK trying to write their own garbage, confident that, at worst, it can't be any shittier than the Hamster's, no?

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 21:09:33 (EDT) From: URL Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: A few questions for Url et al. Message:

What did you do with Maharaji's poetry? Did you read it? All of it? How often? Once, twice maybe? Read most of it. Reread it from time to time. What I get out of it is a reminder. Didn't frame it or stick it on my fridge. Is he the best technical poet, musician, whatever? I don't think he professes to be. He clearly does it for the same reasons that anyone else does it -- because he enjoys doing it, and gets his own inspiration out of it.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 15:26:06 (EDT) From: Ben Lurging Email: None To: URL Subject: Re: A few questions for Url et al. Message:

Are you saying that God, the perfect master, He is all knowing and all present needs to be inspired from time to time? Does he also need a little quickie or pick-me up from time to time - hwat other regular ol human needs and desires does he need to fulfil? www.getalife.com

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 21:58:21 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: URL Subject: Yeah, he's humble, alright Message:

Url, What do you make of the fact that, in truth, he's not just mediocre, he's terrible. I mean, come on, let's face it. Kabir? Might not be grounded in reality but sure is a neat poet. Rumi? Same thing. But Maharaji? Give me a break! Hackneyed, boring, cliched ... I mean, honestly. You know, you say that there's no way an outsider, even an interested one, could judge Maharaji. Well, that's dumb but whatever. What I wonder is whether you think an outsider can't judge Maharaji's poetry either. I say the answer's 'yes' and that anyone but a cult member would find Maharaji a dullard. Yes, that's right, a dullard. And where does this all go, you ask? Url, how is it that the 'Perfect Master' is so lacking in so many ways. Makes you kind of wonder, doesn't it?

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:16:26 (EDT) From: Deputy Frog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Reality? Message:

Rumi is not grounded in reality? What a crock! Rumi's got more reality coming out of his ass than you'll ever be. Again, I apologize for my profanity. DD

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 16:22:25 (EDT) From: Joel Email: None To: All Subject: Foundation: Simplicity Message:

Basis. When I look to the foundation of life, I see a sea of sky. It is here I seek to sit, here upon this solid earth with its deep sea, lying past my reach yet existing soft without my touch, and here I am home. This is a place without position, extending past all seen boundaries. This is where I find that I am other than who I think I am, where I find company in myself, just who I am and nothing more. And who am I? A question that I do not ask. I am simple with no need for definition. Obvious. It is unavoidable. I am alive and conscious. Yes, I think about petty details and far too many complications; but, all the while, I am standing on an self-evident fact. Essential. Fundamental. Can a ladder be built without a first rung? Every building stands upon a foundation -- solid, firm, concrete, rock support. Life is no different. Spark. Life is born anew in every moment. A being exists, continues to be, as before, so again. The process and flow that we call life is a continuity that I can feel, in its sublime subtlety, inside myself. At a central, still, non-moving point, the cycle of life rains down. I feel myself become myself, in any moment. Simple. When I was a youngster, my friend Bruce and I would play my favorite game, Plain Sight. One of us hid an item, something small and commonly seen, and the other would have to find it. This was a challenging game! None of our regular hiding places would do. The object must be in plain sight, easily seen while walking around the room. Sometimes after searching and searching: 'I give up! Where is it?' The obvious can be the hardest to perceive. The most ordinary is the most simple. Do we see it? Solid. I take time out to be with myself, to sit in my presence -- not in action or thoughts, not in past or future. Stone solid and strong. Soft, loose and centered. When I am off course, I drift like a bubble: floating and fragile. When I am in line, I see a new perspective. Life. Essence. Simplicity. Center. Consciousness is the place where all the elements of this treasure meet. This is a prize I do not want to miss. Noetic ... a word that refers to the point where these elements join together. From the Greek word *Nous*, Noetic means To Know, and Knowingness itself. It shares the root of Gnosis, spiritual knowledge.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:44:36 (EDT) From: Jerry Email: None To: Joel Subject: Re: Foundation: Simplicity Message:

Life. Essence. Simplicity. Center. Consciousness is the place where all the elements of this treasure meet. This is a prize I do not want to miss. This is true, but where does consciousness come from? What do you know of the current theories coming out of the cognitive science community? Anything? You should look into it, if you haven't already. Fascinating stuff. I dig it when people get off on being conscious. I do too. But just marveling at consciousness for it's own sake isn't enough. I want to know where it comes from.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:01:30 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jerry Subject: Re: Foundation: Simplicity Message:

It comes from everybody else but you. DD

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:52:57 (EDT) From: General secretary Email: None To: Jerry Subject: One Simplicity Message:

Jeeze Jer, If you want to know where it comes from, you are in your mind! The master will fill in the details if they are revelant and necessary. Just you be the recipient. There is the master and the student. Patience student, the master will fulfill. And in fact the master HAS fulfilled. YOU are didling around with details that are frankly just your mind filling in the gaps where your attention drifted from holy name. Get with the picture. FEEL your breath for god's sake. Always you have to poke poke poke in the darkness. And I don't mean sex. Have you been drinking? It's nice you dig people when the get off on being concious. But brother, where are YOU at? Where is your connection to your breath? Where is your connection to the master? Here you are on the ex-premie forum! What HAVE you been thinking?

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:41:11 (EDT) From: Bill Email: None To: Joel Subject: Good start, now, what is next step? Message:

A little child is also 'simple with no need for definition' However, life is funny, before you know it, the child DOES want some definition. And what a joy that could be to find your place in this large adventure. Or not. Now, a child may think many things and just because they sound good and seem real, they may not be real and also they may do him harm if he clings to those concepts. We could have some fun thinking up examples, but I have to go danceing. In the meantime, this place you are reveling in the moment in, this earth, the people, the time, there is some more figureing out do to. Because life has some tricks up it's sleeve and you will not be able to maintain any state of being you hit upon and want to maintain. The gaurd has seen you, your name is in the files, somehow murphys law is drumming it's fingers and the old saying, 'when life looks like easy street there is danger at your door' comes from human experience. I like you, your having a good day, while it is not mandatory, I think you will be best served if you take the time to look at the nature of the beast that is serving up your breath. Is it just DNA? an unconcious oneness? what?

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 01:01:03 (EDT) From: The General Manager Email: None To: Bill Subject: Maybe it gets better Message:

>>In the meantime, this place you are reveling in the moment in, this earth, the people, the time, there is some more figureing out do to. Because life has some tricks up it's sleeve and you will not be able to maintain any state of being you hit upon and want to maintain. << Hi Bill, yeah, nothing stays the same, and that nice place is already changing, but it's better to be in a nice place that's changing, that in a bad one. Onward and upward Christian soldier The General Manager

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:26:55 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Joel Subject: They'd like it at ELK... Message:

Not sure what you are trying to say here, Joel. But may I suggest the ex-premie forum is not the very best place to start a discussion about gnomes or spiritual knowledge. We did our time once and that was enough. I mean - sure, say it if you have to - you wouldn't believe the crap that gets by the editor's desk around here, nowadays. But don't expect too much of a glad welcome. Thought I should warn you. JSCA.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:20:40 (EDT) From: kmdarling Email: unlimited@aol.com To: Nigel Subject: Re: They'd like it at ELK... Message:

Well... I’d be happy to have a lively discussion about gnomes or spiritual knowledge! My awakening from cultic possession and bhakti fundraising actually ended up catapulting me into some actual real spiritual experiences. More “fractal and organic“ in nature than the trance-like eastern meditation stuff. I didn't become a cynical atheist, although I quite enjoy and get that point of view. Just wanted to clarify that there are all kinds of ways of being an ex-premie. It’s not a new or designated way of being.

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:59:34 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: kmdarling Subject: Whatever gets you through the night... Message:

..is fine by me. I was just saying this isn't the best place to share one's 'spiritual' understanding, that's all - and anyone who tries will have a (not always friendly) discussion on their hands (though I am always friendly, except with people like URL.) Not all atheists are cynical, BTW. Skeptical, sure, but that's something different. Cheers, Nige.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 16:39:49 (EDT) From: LdM Email: None To: Joel Subject: Re: Foundation: Simplicity Message:

I appreciate that what you have written must have taken a long time to write - but what was the purpose of you doing that? I'd really like to know.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 14:31:21 (EDT) From: Dr. OCTO888 Email: None To: All Subject: PERFICIAM (I shall accomplish) Message:

The old name for Durham is DURESME (according to the late Bishop Cosin) Some used to call it DUNELM also. An ancient tome entitled 'Remarks on the Life & Writings of Dr Jonathon Swift (Dean of St Patrick's, Dublin) in a series of Letters from John, Earl of ORRERY to his Son, the Hon. HAMILTON BOYLE" holds some clues. What does this all mean? Perhaps ed. Routhiana (pronounced ROWTH ...) could spill the old beans. (By the by, Joe's leg can be found at 'The Old Elm Tree', Crossgate, if she still is in need of her shanks) & to another topic entirely (and this could mean very little to the majority): From 'somebody's' family history (& yes, we Gileses have apparent links with the Argenteins): ARGENTINE / ARGENTEIN (alias SEXTEN), Richard, M.D. (d.1568) physician and divine, wrote the following works: 1. 'Certeyne Preceptes gathered by Hulricus ZUINGLIUS declaring howe the ingenious youth ought to be instructed and brought unto Christ' - Ipswick, 1548, 8vo (octavo)' 2. 'A ryght notable Sermon made by Doctor Martyn Luther upon the twentieth chapter of Johan of absolution and the true use of the keyes, full of greate comforte' 3. 'Sermons of the ryght famous and excellent clerke Master Bernardine OCHINE' 4. 'De Praestigiis et Incantationibus Daemonum et Necromanticorum'. Bale, 1568, 8vo. 5.'Ad Oxonienses et Cantabrigienses prolingue Arabica beneficio principum restituenda' MS (manuscript) in the Bodleian Library. 6. Observations about Rome and the popes. (see also Tanner's Bibl. Brit. Wodderspoon's Memorials of Ipswich, 391; MS KAddit 5862 f48; Cooper's Athenae Cantab, i. 275; British Bibliogr. i. 504; Ame's Typogr. Antiq. ed. Herbert, 595, 1496) Nota Bene: Read also Balteau's Dictionnare de Biographie Francaise for many references to other ARGENTONS, including Marie-Louise-Madeleine-Victoire LeBeldeLa Boissiere de Sevy (comtesse) 1680-1748, mentioned in 'La Pucelle' (edit. 1756): 'Tendre Argenton, folatre Parabere, C'est par vos soins que le dieu de Cythere Regnant en maitre au palais d'Orleans Sur ses autels revoit fumer l'encens' TRANSLATOR wanted! Any volunteers?

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:32:47 (EDT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: All Subject: Another Microsoft IE 5 security bug Message:

Warning to Microsoft Internet Explorer 5 users: IE5 has privacy peephole at MSNBC has all the details. This is bad, really bad. This security breach allows evil websites to read the files on your disks. Quoting from the article: “This is a very serious bug. The sample code used in our testing opened and then displayed our autoexec.bat file,” said Ralph Decker, lab director for KeyLabs. “But this code could just as easily have accessed sensitive system files.” KeyLabs also tested Netscape Communications’ Communicator 4.61 and found it immune to this form of attack. Because Communicator does not allow remote code to execute locally, it is able to sidestep the issue entirely. In a Security Bulletin posted Tuesday, Microsoft acknowledged the flaw. “This is really a risk to privacy,” said Scott Culp, product manager in charge of security response at Microsoft. “Hackers can only read files, not modify or delete them.” Culp maintains that a patch is forthcoming from Microsoft and will be posted on Microsoft’s Security Advisor site as soon as possible. In the meantime, he recommends that users work around this security issue by disabling Active Scripting. Until Microsoft provides a security patch, the only solution is to disable Active Scripting through the following steps: Within IE 5, select the Tools pull-down menu and click on Internet Options. Select the Internet Zone and click on the Custom Level button. Look for the Scripting heading and then select the “Disable” setting for Active scripting. Click OK twice. This shotgun solution will keep you safe from malicious server-side code, but it will also prevent you from utilizing client-side code. This means you won’t be able to effectively interact with sites that rely upon JavaScript and VB Script to perform even the most menial of tasks, such as form validation routines, image rollovers, and even page formatting directives done through Dynamic HTML. That a way, Bill!

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 15:41:54 (EDT) From: Mw Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: i don't even use ie unexplorer Message:

Friday, October 01, 1999 10:37:44 AM Update for 'Fragmented IGMP Packet' Security Vulnerability (version 4,10,0,2222) was successfully installed. Friday, October 01, 1999 10:37:54 AM 'Favorites' Security Update (version 5,0,2717,2000) was successfully installed. Friday, October 01, 1999 10:38:01 AM Update for Security Vulnerabilities in 'Scriptlet.typlib' and 'Eyedog' ActiveX Controls (version 5,0,2720,2700) was successfully installed

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 15:06:46 (EDT) From: Thick as a plank Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: Another Microsoft IE 5 security bug Message:

My Autoexec.bat has been breeding and has got some children named Bak, Bit, Dos and Syd. I think she's trying to keep up with Config.sys because she's also got kids with the same names. Anyway, thanks for the info, I understood every word, honest.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 03:42:16 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: All Subject: EV/Rawat screening system Message:

I don't know why that stupid thing got me into thinking and trying to rationalize it this morning. Probably because I've been into this as an instructor (part-time), ashram premie, initiator's assistant, etc.... The point is that to be good at this, you have to go 'inside' - wherever that is - and obviously look stupid and have that blissful or happy premie face. Then you're faced with other persons, for whatever service you're assigned. If the other person accepts you like you are, stupid looking premie, that means that person is OK. If that person reacts, or provokes you, that means that person is not conditioned to accept whatever comes next, and obviously becomes suspicious. Then, in some instances, you 'talk' to that person, still remaining 'inside'.... If that persons comes back to his/her senses - i.e. accepts conditioning - has THAT understanding, he/she's OK. If not, then you're faced with a problem, and you have to proceed to the next step, denying him/her access to the next step, or with 'special ushers' or something. Is there anything I've misunderstood? NOTHING MYSTERIOUS ! You've just understood one of the biggest secrets of Rawat's organization!

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:19:49 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: EV/Rawat screening system Message:

Is there anything I've misunderstood? Yeah a whole lot! Because you're just a stupid person. DD

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:11:26 (EDT) From: URL Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: EV/Rawat screening system Message:

I tell you JM, the stupidity you've just expressed is beyond belief. You're so out of touch with real people it's shocking. You're a real fucking wizard man. A real fucking deceitful, malicious, and small-minded wizard. It's a wonder you let your sphinctre open wide enough to pass the necessary load every day. And Roger's 'good analysis' slap on the back demonstrates the caliber of your support group. You're a joke.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 06:56:24 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: URL Subject: The peace of God which passeth all understanding... Message:

I tell you JM, the stupidity you've just expressed is beyond belief. You're so out of touch with real people it's shocking. You're a real fucking wizard man. A real fucking deceitful, malicious, and small-minded wizard. It's a wonder you let your sphinctre open wide enough to pass the necessary load every day. You're a joke. You're looking a bit thirsty, URL. Better put a video on.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:52:59 (EDT) From: Ben Lurking Email: None To: URL Subject: Re: EV/Rawat screening system Message:

It is the ex-premie site not the premies who want to make sure and argue with premies site, if you want all rose colored stories go over to the disscussion group at Enjoying Life which seems to be a very open hones discussion group of you liking, some of us can get humor by slamming M for humors sake it doesn't have to be a conspiracy. How many aspirants have you lost do to the discussions of this site?

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:02:28 (EDT) From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: URL Subject: Anal details? Message:

I guess this is merely a general view of the system. Anybody having some understanding (not 'understanding') of basic psychology will understand this. This is the major tool police, customs people, and physionomists use by the way! Of course the premie 'rationalization' is a bit more mystical....you know, you have to open your heart, ... I mean .... feel the experience .... you'll know what to do. It's so simple, you have to experience it, I mean ... what can I say ..... Basically premies able to do some elaborate service have to be able to be 'inside' and still use a little bit of their brains, which requires lots of training... I did.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:41:21 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Anal details indeed! Message:

Anal details? Jean Michel, you should be an expert on that! DD

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:48:33 (EDT) From: Catweasel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Re: Anal details? Message:

Didn't work though did it Kermit?Is the logical extension that you have limited powers of perception.....Or your sphintre muscle does indeed not open fully each day,thus disabling your grey matter....Or the training didn't work? Personally I think I'd opt for URL's anal-ysis...Your full of shit!

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:13:55 (EDT) From: URL Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: What can I say -- you're a real wizard (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:52:31 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: URL Subject: That's it in a nutshell, JM Message:

JM, That's it exactly. And nothing proves how well you hit the mark better than Url's pathetic response. Thanks.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:30:08 (EDT) From: URL Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: That's it in who's nutshell? Message:

...A nut, that's who's. And nothing proves how well you hit the mark better than Url's pathetic response. Lame!

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 05:47:07 (EDT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Great analysis Message:

Thanks, J-M. Zac posted another one below. As soon as extract myself from booting-installing-booting-tweaking-booting I'm going to make this a ***Best***. I find it really helpful to see these subtle little behaviors explained out in the open. As a premie you are either operating with them or they are being operated on you. Either way, it is strange stuff.

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 08:24:19 (EDT) From: Zac Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: When you hit a nerve Message:

Hi J-M,Drek, et al You can tell you've hit the nail on the head when all the posting premies jump in to try and tell you you're full of shit. The truth hurts doesn't it boys. I think it boils down to, Without 'this understanding' you don't get to have 'that understanding'. He he he...Or maybe, trade in 'your understanding' for 'our understanding'. Sick sick, stuff.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:11:03 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: All Subject: Warning - this is serious! Message:

The Millennium bug is already upon us. See my post on The ANYTHING GOES forum and take heed. It could be YOU next!

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:33:37 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: Warning - this is serious! Message:

Dave, You've got a lot of nerve to be talking about anything serious! DD

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:49:26 (EDT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: No, it went completely according to plan, my plan! Ha! Ha! Haaaa! Message:

No, Sir Dave! I've got your money now and I'm going to get more of your money and everyone else's too! I have come this time with more power than ever - 641393 powers to be exact (give or take a few.) I'm evil, evil, evil. And I'm really dangerous. Tell ya what, you get me that video tape of your dancing try out and I won't take any more of your money. There's so much money to be made in that videotape I could move up from this stinking Malibu bungaloo down below Maharaji and buy a house above his. Make it so, Sir Dave.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 05:04:59 (EDT) From: Mr Waveley Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: You'll be laughing on the other side of your face Message:

Enjoy your freedom while it lasts, Mr Drek. Here at UNCLE we're on your case. Just see The ANYTHING GOES forum for details.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:52:04 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Re: No, it went completely according to plan, my plan! Ha! Ha! Haaaa! Message:

Roger, Apart from some rather humorous 'Books that we'd like to see Maharaji to write,' I think that you are a nasty spotted prancer. DD

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 02:57:12 (EDT) From: The General Manager Email: None To: Deputy Dog Subject: Re: No, it went completely according to plan, my plan! Ha! Ha! Haaaa! Message:

What's a nasty spotted prancer? Sounds like a pony I had when I was a kid, only his name was Satan, God rest his soul.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 16:49:29 (EDT) From: Grace Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: English Pounds (ot) Message:

That's awful! I already decided to take all my $ out of the bank, but was going to wait until December, thinking it would hit on January 1st. Hey, is an English pound roughly $2 or $3?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 19:25:33 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Grace Subject: Re: English Pounds (ot) Message:

A Pound used to be $2 but now it's more like £1.60 or $1.70 or thereabouts. I think the biggest problem is for businesses that have a fast turnover. When money disappears the whole process of money fueling the business comes to a standstill and one can quickly go out of business if the problem isn't quickly rectified. I should imagine that long term savings accounts are fairly safe but don't bank on it!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:38:37 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Mis Led & all Subject: A new game (lila) Message:

I like that. (Your original post which is below) Only thing is, I can't think of anything good which I learned from Maharaji. The knowledge - I learned that from Indian Mahatmas. He did give me a dream for some years that I was devoted to the living Lord but the upshot of that was that when the dream shattered, so did I and it took a long, long time to pull myself together again. It's good to see someone breaking the chains which bound them. Original post from Miss Led: That's funny! I was thinking today.... remember m talked about lilas alot. Premies say that's his lila etc.... well I was thinking what I could say to him on the phone and it was something like this: Hi m, I've decided I don't want to play your game (lila) anymore. I want to play a new game and I am the boss. I can experience God if I want to after all the 'creator' made me and it definately wasn't you. You had a fun game going there for a while but it got awfully dull. I'm going to mock up a new game (lila) where I am happy much more of the time than I was when I was a follower of you. I know there will be ups & downs in life but you never said there wouldn't anyway. Thankyou for those meditation techniques I will use them when I feel like it but no longer need you to tell me endlessly what is true and what is false. I have learnt to be at cause over my mind instead of being afraid of it. I have learnt a lot from you, some good and some bad. I liked the vegetarian recipes I learnt in the early days. I met some good people although I'm not sure if you were one of them as I never really got to know you after all that time. Instead of telling people to WALK in a crabby kind of voice when they decide to leave why don't you say, 'Well done, now it's time to go it alone. That's the way you came in and that's the way you go out. All the best. I'm only a human being too.' It's been fun but time to move on.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 15:30:47 (EDT) From: Miss Led Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Re: A new game (lila) Message:

Dear David, Thankyou for recopying my post from below because I have tried a couple of times but can't find it. I did get though to mirage's residence but when the secretary came on the line, her name was Wendy, I didn't know what to say. So I wrote it here instead. I wasn't sure if she would let me speak to m anyway. Miss Led

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:49:22 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: good things I have learned in the cult? Message:

Frankly, from Rawat himself I do not think I learned a thing. Well, perhaps, not to wear a lei of flowers and a pair of pants until I lose all the weight I put on after the last baby? Oh yes, and if I do choose to wear the lei of flowers and little else for God's sake do not get photographed in it or it will end up on a webpage somewhere after I am trying to pretend I was never God? From premies I learned a lot. Some of them taught me some really good things about being a mom. Certainly, it was great to see all those breastfeeding moms. I learned how to cook a lot of different foods. In the Ashram I learned to iron and clean. I went to Rome and we snuck away and were bad premies and saw the Vatican...that was cool. I could make a pretty long list. But there were a lot of premies who taught me many things and were very nice to me. So I throw away the cult and take away the good stuff as best I can.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 23:29:50 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Susan Subject: Yes, I've carried that with me too Message:

Frankly, from Rawat himself I do not think I learned a thing. Well, perhaps, not to wear a lei of flowers and a pair of pants until I lose all the weight I put on after the last baby? Oh yes, and if I do choose to wear the lei of flowers and little else for God's sake do not get photographed in it or it will end up on a webpage somewhere after I am trying to pretend I was never God? Susan, That's a mistake I, too, will never make. I try to tell some of my colleagues, especially some of the younger guys around the courthouse, but they're just so full of themselves. They simply don't listen. But you're right. Maharaji did teach us that. One point for the forces of darkness.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 05:17:55 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jim Subject: My striptease phase Message:

Maybe it's a phase we all go through but during the mid eighties, when I was trying to figure out a way to make a living, a friend of mine who was a female striptease artist suggested I get a job as a male stripper at a gay club which was next door to her club, in Soho, London. Now I'm not gay myself but don't mind it if gay guys want to oggle my assets and after a bit of persuasion (and I can't believe I did this) I went along and strutted my stuff on the stage in the gay club. I actually enjoyed it and was thinking that perhaps this was my life's vocation, taking my clothes off and prancing about on stage like there was no tomorrow. It was a very liberating experience and I could see that some of the audience had THAT appreciation on their faces (even with my glasses off). Now to my disappointment/relief, the guys at the gay club said that I wasn't muscular or macho enough to be a regular feature at their club and so my career as a stripper was over before it started. But often I think back to that time and I do understand why Maharaji wanted all of his pictures of his semi-naked dancing days destroyed. At least nobody took pictures of me.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 10:55:08 (EDT) From: Monmot Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Any Relation to The Full Monty? (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 05:50:57 (EDT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: If you send me a picture of you then I'll ***Best*** your post (nt) Message:

nt

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 21:16:21 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: You've got it Message:

Although I should add that this picture is not for the nervous or faint hearted and prudes, please don't peep. So here you are then, click here for shocking full frontal male nudity and eat your heart out Buttman, Joey Silvera and all you other big pricks.

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 10:17:07 (EDT) From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Sir Dave Subject: A natural for the pole-vault..? Message:

That has to be prosthetics or trick-photography... The following comes from Jared Diamond's Why is sex fun? 'Is there any human signal that exemplifies the operation of Fisher's runaway selection model or Zahavi's handicap principle? At first, we seem devoid of exaggerated signaling structures comparable to a widowbird's sixteen-inch tail. On reflection, however, I wonder whether we actually do sport one such structure: a man's penis. One might object that it serves a nonsignaling function and is nothing more than well-designed reproductive machinery. However, that is not a serious objection to my speculation: we have already seen that wom~n's breasts simultaneously constitute signals and reproductive machinery. Comparisons with our ape relatives hint that the size of the human penis similarly exceeds bare functional requirements, and that that excess size may serve as a signal. The length of the erect penis is only about 1'/, inches in gorillas and 1'/z inches in orang-utans but 5 inches in humans, even though males of the two apes have much bigger bodies than men. Are those extra couple of inches of the human penis a functionally unnecessary luxury? One counterinterpretation is that a large penis might somehow be useful in the wide variety of our copulatory positions compared to many other mammals. However, the 1'/z inch penis of the male orang-utan permits it to perform in a variety of positions that rival ours, and to outperform us by executing all those positions while hanging from a tree. As for the possible utility of a large penis in sustaining prolonged intercourse, orang-utans top us in that regard too (mean duration fifteen minutes, versus a mere four minutes for the average American man). A hint that the large human penis serves as some sort of signal may be gained by watching what happens when men take the opportunity to design their own penises, rather than remaining content with their evolutionary legacy. Men in the highlands of New Guinea do that by enclosing the penis in a decorative sheath called a phallocarp. The sheath is up to two feet long and four inches in diameter, often bright red or yellow in color, and variously decorated at the tip with fur, leaves, or a forked ornament. When I first encountered New Guinea men with phallocarps, among the Ketengban tribe in the Star Mountains last year, I had already heard a lot about them and was curious to see how they were used and how people explained them. It turned out that men wore their phallocarps constantly, at least whenever I encountered them. Each man owns several models, varying in size, ornamentation, and angle of erection, and each day he selects a model to wear according to his mood, much as each morning we select a shirt to wear. In response to my question as to why they wore phallocarps, the Ketengbans replied that they felt naked and immodest without them. That answer surprised me, with my Western perspective, because the Ketengbans were otherwise completely naked and left even their testes exposed. In effect, the phallocarp is a conspicuous erect pseudo-penis representing what a man would like to be endowed with. The size of the penis that we evolved was unfortunately limited by the length of a woman's vagina. A phallocarp shows us what the human penis would look like if it were not subject to that practical constraint. It is a signal even bolder than the widowbird's tail. The actual penis, while more modest than a phallocarp, is immodestly large by the standards of our ape ancestors, although the chimpanzee penis has also become enlarged over the inferred ancestral state and rivals men s penises in size. Penis evolution evidently illustrates the operation of runaway selection just as Fisher postulated. Starting from a 1'/z inch ancestral ape penis similar to the penis of a modern gorilla or orangutan, the human penis increased in length by a runaway process, conveying an advantage to its owner as an increasingly conspicuous signal of virility, until its length became limited by counter-selection as difficulties fitting into a woman's vagina became imminent. The human penis may also illustrate Zahavi's handicap model as a structure costly and detrimental to its owner. Granted, it is smaller and probably less costly than a peacock's tail. However, it is large enough that if the same quantity of tissue were instead devoted to extra cerebral cortex, that brainy redesigned man would gain a big advant-age. Hence a large penis's cost should be regarded as a lost -opportunity cost: because any man's available biosynthetic energy is finite, the energy squandered on one structure comes at the expense of energy potentially available for another structure. In effect, a man is boasting, 'I'm already so smart and superior that I don't need to devote more ounces of protoplasm to my brain, but I can instead afford the handicap of packing the ounces uselessly into my penis.' What remains debatable is the intended audience at which the penis's proclamatlon of virility is directed. Most men would assume that the ones who are impressed are women. However, women tend to report that they are more turned on by other features of a man, and that the sight of a penis is, if anyfliing, unattractive. Instead, ihe ones really fascinated by the penis and its dimensions are men...'

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:56:47 (EDT) From: Roger eDrek Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Have I got a match for you! Message:

This speaks for itself.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 05:29:25 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Roger eDrek Subject: Nice tits - shame about the boat race Message:

For the Americans reading: boat race = face loaf (of bread) = head etc etc.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 21:45:04 (EDT) From: Mae West Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Are You Happy To See Me, Or Is That A Shotgun In Your Pocket (nt) :-)) Message:

nt

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 22:48:41 (EDT) From: Many Recipes--No Cake Email: None To: Susan Subject: Re: good things I have learned in the cult? Message:

Yup! How to smile while being sodomized. Premies are really good at taking their lumps with a smile

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 16:59:58 (EDT) From: Grace Email: None To: Susan Subject: To Susan Re: 'Bad Premies' gs I have learned in the cult? Message:

Susan, You just reminded me of the time I was a 'bad premie' and snuck off in New York ('86?) to see the Statue of Liberty when I was supposed to be at M's satsang, it sure was fun! Also, while hanging out in the hallway at that same program when I was supposed to be inside listening, I got as close to M as I ever had physically--he walked past me within 15 feet or so, I knew I was being 'bad' but felt somehow blessed about it. It's a real shame that poor premies I know who scraped every dollar to go to a program in a foreign country never saw that country, only the inside of some hall.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 17:11:16 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: Grace Subject: Re: To Susan 'Bad Premies' gs I have learned in the cult? Message:

Talk about regrets...all those places we went and we never SAW them!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:44:26 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: All Subject: Yes, well what are friends for? Message:

In a thread below, an 'old friend' of Katieunlimited, afraid to identify herself, posted: Sorry Katie, That happens to be complete garbage which has been perpetrated and promoted by none other than....Bill Burke, who posts here under many names and has an insatiable need to feel important by MAKING THINGS UP out of whole cloth. There is no truth to that whatsoever. Navi is still very close to her uncle, aunt and cousins. By the way, your proclamations of how close you were to Maharaji's family wouldn't stand up too well in the light of day either. Time to lose a little bit of the junior high school gossip and speedy giddiness and realize that you're talking about real people who affect many other real people's lives...the great majority in a most beautiful way...all over the world, all types of people. Harassing phone calls and fourth-hand gossip are not exactly the marks of any sort of conscious and loving people. Take a deep breath and a long look at what you're contributing to. AOF and I'm glad she (he?) did. For one thing, we now know that Katieunlimited is a liar. We already knew that Bill was but this, perhaps, is something new. Thanks, ol' friend. I'm sure Katieunlimited will thank you herself one day when she realizes what you've done for her here. Anyone can lie to us and make us feel good and stuff. Only a true friend can put us in our place. If they have to do so anonymously -- but in public nonetheless -- well, go figure! Like the Lord, friendship works in mysterious ways. You know, I've thought about that call a bit. Really was a bit out of line, wasn't it? For one thing, Maharaji never gave me his phone number himself, did he? He gave me his address wher I could send him donations. He allowed me to write to him there. He gave me his email address and allowed me to write to him there. He gave me his pictures to buy, not to mention his videos. And he gave me the twin gifts of Gratitude and Appreciation, for which I feel -- surprise, surprise -- grateful and appreciative (see! It's working!). But, no, he never gave me his number. So, anyway, AOF says I harrassed the guy. My one phone call in twenty-five years was a bit much. Like, when would I ever get it? Eh? I might never get it, at this rate. Hm? Is that the problem? Like, you know, as a lawyer (oh sorry, LIar), I get lots of calls from my clients. Imagine that, eh? These pesky people calling as if I owed them something. Sure, I represent them. So what? What right have ... oh, you say they DO have a right to talk with me? Is that how it works? Well then I'm in the wrong job! I want to be a Perfect Master. I want to tell people to surrender the reigns of their lives to me, to dedicate everything to me, to worship and adore me and to pay royally for the pleasure. But I don't want any of these jerks calling me at home, huh? Yes, they can pay for the home in the first place. Hell, they can pay for the replacement home should I choose to build one. But no calls, eh? Enough's enough. So a Perfect Master can say all that but I can't? That sucks.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:36:02 (EDT) From: Deputy Dog Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Yes, well what are friends for? Message:

Jim, You've got friends? DD

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 15:27:37 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Re: Yes, well what are friends for? Message:

You know what I find really interesting? It's when premies take some comment someone makes and then trivializes everything that gets said here as harrassment and gossip. [As if the premie world isn't one of the most gossipy around.] I wonder what this 'friend' has to say about, Maharaji being an alcoholic, that he cheated on his wife with Monica Lewis and others, that Mahatma Jagdeo molested premie children repeatedly and there is evidence that Maharaji knew about it and did little or nothing. Never a comment about these items. Is it because it is common knowledge among a large segment of premiedom that there is a lot of truth to those suggestions? Yes, we are talking about real people. And the main person we are talking about claimed to be god, demanded surrender and devotion from his followers, squandered millions of their donations, promised to bring peace to the world and has backtracked, deceived, and used people for his own gain and is accountable to absolutely no one. Yes, a real person did this. And as any other real person he should take responsibility for his actions. And until he does, he just might have to live with the inconvenience of people poking their nose into his business, talking about him publicly, and due to his silence, and unaccountablility, yes, there just might be some rumors. But it's completely in his power to deal with them. Like us, he has the right of free speech, and the right to defend himself, with his very considerable resources, lawyers, spokespeople and PR firms. But no. He hides, ignores, avoids....this has been his pattern all of his life, why should he stop now? This 'friend' also says Maharaji has helped "the majority" of people, I guess this is to the effect that he has helped more people than he has hurt. Well, first I really disagree with that statement, and also, isn't this one of those examples of 'damning by faint praise?' I mean you could say this about just about anyone, with the exceptions of Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and a list of others.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:46:26 (EDT) From: kmdarling Email: unlimited@al.com To: JW Subject: More thanks to my “Old Friend” Message:

While we’re on the subject of my ”Old Friend”’s post, I want to point up another subtle thing I noticed after taking a few more deep breaths as my friend suggested. Here’s the post again, then I’ll comment: “Sorry Katie, That happens to be complete garbage which has been perpetrated and promoted by none other than....Bill Burke, who posts here under many names and has an insatiable need to feel important by MAKING THINGS UP out of whole cloth. There is no truth to that whatsoever. Navi is still very close to her uncle, aunt and cousins. By the way, your proclamations of how close you were to Maharaji's family wouldn't stand up too well in the light of day either. Time to lose a little bit of the junior high school gossip and speedy giddiness and realize that you're talking about real people who affect many other real people's lives...the great majority in a most beautiful way...all over the world, all types of people. Harassing phone calls and fourth-hand gossip are not exactly the marks of any sort of conscious and loving people. Take a deep breath and a long look at what you're contributing to. AOF“ Here’s the line that just sunk in: “By the way, your proclamations of how close you were to Maharaji's family wouldn't stand up too well in the light of day either.“ My initial response was to clarify that what I have said was that when I became a “rich premie” I got much more opportunities for physical proximity to MJ.I was never a PAM (now know what that means and am an official “ex”!). More highly ranked service, for example, including coordinating the huge “assigned seating” section at programs such as Hans Jayanti. Rich people got assigned seats. It was as simple as that. When I tried, at Hans Jayanti in Kissimmee, to “clean up” the system by refusing special seating to these people, Raja Ji printed up fake tickets and gave them to his rich friends. This is true. Funny, but true! My then husband and I weren’t quite rich enough to be included in this elite group. But we did get privileges and invitations and all kinds of ”service opportunities” that took us to residences and fairly close situations. I got Xmas presents from Marolyn and stuff like that. Anyway, the real point I want to make is that I realized that the belief system my “Old Friend” was coming from was an old pernicious premie one I used to share: that I was bragging about being close to the Holy Ones, and Old Friend is hereby ”bringing me down a peg” by making it clear that he/she (by virtue of being really close, perhaps), happens to know that my proclamations of closeness wouldn’t fly. The presuppositions are: 1) It’s a good or important thing to be close to the Holy Ones 2) Therefore I will be embarrassed when someone who is genuinely close reveals this wasn’t true. It almost slipped by me. An insidious piece of cult-think.The sibling thing about jostling to be close to the parents or the royalty or whatever. The other point I may as well make, regarding ”harassing phone calls:” The only person who seems to have called is Jim, who certainly makes a good case for his call in his posts. I did put up a post when Jim called, saying I was thinking of calling (to urge action re the Jagdeo situation), but didn't because I didn't want harassing anonymous e-mails from premies (which I have received in the past). Self-fulfilling prophecy. I guess my “Old Friend” didn't read that post. Someone said somewhere in a thread today that it’s really helpful to bring out these subtle conditioning beliefs and behaviors. I think so too. It’s the main reason I come here.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 06:55:25 (EDT) From: Old Friend Email: None To: kmdarling Subject: Re: More thanks to my “Old Friend” Message:

“My initial response was to clarify that what I have said was that when I became a “rich premie” I got much more opportunities for physical proximity to MJ.” “It almost slipped by me. An insidious piece of cult-think.The sibling thing about jostling to be close to the parents or the royalty or whatever. “ Hi Katie, You should have followed your first instinct to clarify, it was accurate. What you have conveniently transmuted into 'insidious cult-think,' was, in fact, just a mirror being held up to you so you might take a look at what you're broadcasting and its considerable spin. The casual reader might assume that what you're saying in the following quotes is based on your personal interaction with Maharaji and his family, which it clearly isn't. This wasn’t at all about “jockeying for position” stuff, it’s about slander not based on your own experience. There’s a difference. Here are some of your pronouncements: 'If you lived with Mahraji you know that he treated many of the people around him in tyrannical, often shaming ways. 'If you lived with Maharaji, did he ever physically abuse you?' 'the Rawats are totally enchanted by riches and what they perceive as social rank in a really rank way.' Get my drift? Before you got so caffeinated riding around on your pronouncement pony that you were speed-dialing Maharaji's home and harassing (yes, harassing) him along with Jim, I thought you might want to try to put this all in a little more perspective. And the major part of that perspective that I would ask you to consider, is that many people have had an entirely different take on all this than you. Are they all defective and totally devoid of any feelings or perception? Maharaji never abused them, fed them ROCKS!!??! or any of the other stuff you're tossing out. Explain the 'financial enchantment' of the ladies in the Ivory Coast who he so loves to hang out with. The people with NONE of the cultural or psychological pegs you'd love to hang this whole thing on. You can’t. Too many kinds of people. Over way too long a time frame. In too many different circumstances to just write off so cheaply. And your shots ARE cheap. You, of course, fail to mention the who-knows-how-many great, loving and inspiring things you 'heard', felt or saw yourself. They're very nicely repressed and tucked away. Instead we have Maharaji the abusing rock feeder. A truly balanced portrait. You were once blown away by this guy. For quite a few years. That’s still happening to people all over the world and it’s happening without the trappings, most of the trips, the post-hippie stress syndrome or the Astrodome roof threatening to fly off (a nice Bronx cheer for ole’ Satpal). You think it’s a cult and that makes it easier for you to compartmentalize, trivialize and box it away, fine. You believe that practicing knowledge and having a connection with Maharaji leads to “sapping your energy and perhaps eventually killing you off, or at least diminishing your joy and aliveness. “ That’s ludicrous to me but I’m not of the bent to try and convince you otherwise. Sharing a house with David Smith, now that’s a different story. It would be lovely however if a few people here realized (and some have, that’s why you don’t see them here anymore) that by trying to BRING DOWN MAHARAJI, they’re being incredibly INTOLERANT and are insulting not only some of their friends and loved ones, but a decent portion of their own lives as well. The Kid really DID have something, whether you see it now or not. Be well Katie

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 23:41:00 (EDT) From: Know It All Email: None To: Old Friend Subject: Not A Friend Message:

Old Friend: Since you have placed yourself so close to the center of the hurricane, I look forward to your interviews by any interested law enforcement agencies. Can't wait to hear how you tell someone how M is the Lord of the Universe, or maybe not... Good luck.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:01:01 (EDT) From: kmdarling Email: unlimited@aol.com To: Old Friend Subject: Re: More thanks to my “Old Friend” Message:

Old Friend. WOW!You really mean it! I’d be happy to go into my ”pronouncements” more deeply. Thanks for reminding me! First I’ll quote your letter quoting my earlier post: “Here are some of your pronouncements: 'If you lived with Mahraji you know that he treated many of the people around him in tyrannical, often shaming ways.“ Fortunately, I never lived with MJ; however, I have heard detailed accounts of his behavior from people who did. I wish those people would come out on this Forum and tell this stuff directly, but it was told to me confidentially. I’m certainly not going to name any names. Have you ever considered how many people used to live with MJ full-time and are no longer around? I think that part of the problem in “coming out” for a lot of these people is the tedious fervor of those still upholding the myth (like you). 'If you lived with Maharaji, did he ever physically abuse you?' Sorry I didn't balance MJ’s rock-feeding side with more praise of his other side. Of course he has a good side, just like most human beings. In fact, like all human beings, he is God incarnate. It’s just his dysfunctional behaviors that require a little ––um–– accountability. They take the “fun” out of dysfunctional. Do you remember the whole “penis-poking” incident? It was in some newspapers, actually. People (male) who had lived with MJ recounting how he made them play a game in which he poked their penises with sticks. Mind you, he was young and I think not yet married; but all the more so the “Lord“ at that age. ––'the Rawats are totally enchanted by riches and what they perceive as social rank in a really rank way.' I think this point was well handled by Jim. ––”Get my drift? Before you got so caffeinated riding around on your pronouncement pony that you were speed-dialing Maharaji's home and harassing (yes, harassing) him along with Jim,“ I didn't call. As I mentioned before, I was afraid of anonymous premie harassment (such as you are giving me; who are you anyway?). ––”You believe that practicing knowledge and having a connection with Maharaji leads to “sapping your energy and perhaps eventually killing you off, or at least diminishing your joy and aliveness. “ No, Old Friend, I was addressing ex-premies in this quote (by the way, didn't your guru tell you not to come on this forum with us intolerant, insulting ingrates? I’m not trying to drive you away, but it does seem a bit odd...). I actually don't have any interest in debating with entrenched premies––unless they come to me, as you have. I remember very clearly how many people tried to wake me up to my deep programming while I was in it, and how clear it was to me that they were negative and confused. I was quite impenetrable until it was my time to wake up. And it took quite an incredible level of repressed suffering coming to the surface to wake me up. That quote about the sapping of aliveness, is directed at people (who are in the vast, vast majority of all those who have been involved with MJ) who have left, but perhaps not completely cleared the whole cultic possession from their consciousness––and I include the subconscious, the nervous system and even the cells as part of what may need to be cleared after such an incredible invasion. I want to thank you for reposting my questions, and, just for fun, I’m going to repost the other ones from my Oscar-winning post which can be found in the “Best Of Forum” section: If you lived with Mahraji you know that he treated many of the people around him in tyrannical, often shaming ways. For example, if you were gay and lived with him, what did he call you? If you were an initiator/instructor, you were terrified to your very soul by Maharaji in the name of “For Your Own Good” (read this excellent book on child abuse by Alice Miller). Remember the Tucson Initiators meeting? (I happened to be sort of half-there, and I saw and felt you when you came out of it, and some of you told be the verbal abuse you had received, and you probably have Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder from this unless you’ve done something about it). Were you an ashram premie? Were your basic needs met? Did you have your health needs met? Were you made to feel that your health needs were costing too much when the money ought to be spent on a new luxury vehicle for God Incarnate? This is incredibly demeaning to your human value! If you don’t see this as abuse, you are still in the middle of it! Did you live around Maharaji and observe his alcoholism? Were you part of the crew who was allowed to see the “X-rated” stuff that Maharaji did (this phrase, “X-rated” was the code used by the people around Maharaji to designate something like your “security clearance”). The X-rated clearance people were allowed to see (or actually prepare) the bottles of brandy and other drugs that Maharaji had to have laid out after a program. I learned all this from someone close to Maharaji that I was very close to for a long time. If you were there, come out! If you lived with Maharaji, did he ever physically abuse you? Example: in India, he would play “lilas” in which he fed food containing stones and rocks to his devotees, who were, of course “blissed-out” at this divine game. I travelled with a BaiJi who recounted this, and was clearly confused between the pain and rage from the abuse, and the need to realize that it was “for her own good.” Do you know about Maharaji’s financial abuses? I have friends who worked in accounting positions who roll their eyes at the memory. When Maharaji reopened the ashrams in the late seventies, did you feel coerced into leaving your family to be a true devotee? What effect did this have on your life, emotionally? When the ashrams closed, did you find yourself lost, without financial, emotional or mental resources to cope with life, having given up everything, you thought, for life, and understood that the deal was that by doing this, Maharaji would be your lifelong refuge. Are you still recovering from this? Had you foresworn education or an inheritance or relationships which has made it hard for you to function successfully? Do you feel ashamed about this, like something is wrong with you? YOU WERE BETRAYED AND ABUSED! Ultimately we’re all responsible for our choices, blah blah blah, and it’s all a big learning experience, blah, blah, blah. But part of getting the real learning out of the whole thing is to unravel it, not just leave it as a knot somewhere deep inside you, sapping your energy and perhaps eventually killing you off, or at least diminishing your joy and aliveness. All the bliss and joy and hopeful vision that you ever experienced with Maharaji came from inside YOU and is still available. You can reaccess it. Part of the journey is to tell the truth about what happened. That’s the best way to really “put it behind you.” In love, Katie

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 14:59:49 (EDT) From: Jim Email: None To: Old Friend Subject: So Maharaji's got 3rd world pets Message:

AOF, Maharaji's reasons for cultivating the third world a bit aren't hard to imagine. (Yes, 'imagine', I'm afraid. He's not available for discussion so we're forced to speculate. But before you say a single thing about how unsafe that kind of analysis is, don't forget, you're doing exactly that yourself. You're asking Katieunlimited to infer some sort of speculative good reason for M's third world involvement. Well, two can play that game, can't they?) Anyway, Maharaji could have all sorts of less-than-noble reasons: 1) He just loves the easy adulation. The west is tricky ground to toil. Too much memory of his particular past and too much disenchantment with other eastern and other frauds from the seventies. Too much skepticism over all. 2) He needs to maintain some appaearance of 'forward motion' for the western devotees, his real financial power base. 3) He really does profit from the poorer countries. Talk about those possibilities a bit, will 'ya? And as for harrassing him? My call was polite as could be. You just think he's above accountability. That's your problem.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 14:52:51 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk To: Old Friend Subject: The acid test Message:

Maharaji has no love for the people who once gave their lives to him in service and humble devotion. He now ignores them and wishes they would go away. They are a thorn in his side. I see more love in plain, ordinary people. Maharaji is just a stage act.

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 16:11:45 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: Sir Dave, Katie, Jim Subject: Great responses to Katie's dear old friend Message:

Katie, You especially seem to be amazingly able to get to the heart of the issue. Thanks all.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 16:54:11 (EDT) From: Susan Email: None To: kmdarling Subject: beautifully said Katie Message:

you really have a unique contribution to make to this site, Your insights into premie culture and behavior are remarkable. The insidious piece of cult think....you saw it. I missed it too. God who gives a shit who was closest to the hamster anymore. With friends like AOF who needs enemies.......

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 12:00:14 (EDT) From: Sir Dave Email: None To: Jim Subject: It's a perfect business Message:

Being a perfect master is the perfect business. You don't have to go to the trouble of manufacturing or selling anything and yet people send you money in spades. It's the sort of business which I've been trying to figure out how to do since the mid eighties. Like how do I get people to just give me money without me having to sell them anything or go to the trouble of doing some work. Maharaji has got it cracked! He knows how to do it. Maybe he really IS a master, after all.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:42:14 (EDT) From: Liandra Email: None To: Sir Dave Subject: Let's find out how he does it! Message:

New IRS Disclosure Rules for Non-Profits Take Effect June 8, 1999 Effective June 8, 1999, non-profits will have to mail their Form 990 Annual Information Returns and Form 1023 (Application for Recognition of Tax Exemption) upon request or post them on the Internet under final regulations issued by the Internal Revenue Service. The regulations implement a portion of the 'Taxpayer Bill of Rights' legislation signed into law by President Clinton in July of 1996. Among other provisions, the law establishes a series of intermediate sanctions (such as excise taxes and other financial penalties) for non-profits that improperly use charitable dollars to benefit directors, trustees, officers and employees. It also broadens the manner and circumstances under which a non-profit must make its Form 990 Annual Information Return and Form 1023 (Application for Recognition of Tax-Exempt Status) available to the public. The disclosure regulations, published in the April 9, 1999, Federal Register, govern the circumstances under which a non-profit must make the Form 990 and 1023 available. They take effect June 8, 1999. The IRS expects to finalize the intermediate sanctions regulations later this year. Prior to the passage of the 'Taxpayer Bill of Rights,' a non-profit was required to make its three most recent Form 990's and its Form 1023 available for public inspection at its principal place of business. Under the new law, in addition to the public inspection requirements, all tax-exempt organizations, including private foundations, will have to provide copies of their Form 1023 to anyone who requests it. Tax-exempt organizations other than private foundations will have to provide copies of their three most recent Form 990's upon request. Under the Tax and Trade Relief Extension Act of 1998, similar disclosure requirements will also be extended to private foundations; however, the requirement will not take effect until 60 days after final regulations have been published. The IRS intends to issue these regulations separately. Copies of all schedules, attachments and supporting documents filed with these forms must also be provided, except for the names and addresses of contributors to the organization and Form 990-T (Exempt Organization Business Tax Return). An organization does not have to provide a copy of its Form 1023 if that form was filed prior to July 15, 1987, unless the organization had a copy of the application on July 15, 1987. Also, an organization that has not yet been recognized as tax-exempt is not required to provide a copy of its pending Form 1023. Corporation Data - The foreign nonprofit corporation must disclose: (a) the state or country under the laws of which it is incorporated; (b) the date of incorporation; (c) the period of duration of the corporation; (d) the complete address of the principal office of the corporation in its incorporating state or country

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:55:50 (EDT) From: JW Email: None To: Liandra Subject: Let's Go Message:

-- Anyone want to go to Malibu and ask to see the records? Where IS the 'principal place of business' for Elan Vital?

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 13:55:54 (EDT) From: Marianne Email: None To: JW Subject: Road Trip! Message:

I'll go. I am serious about this.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:50:39 (EDT) From: Liandra Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: Let's Go Message:

The regulations implement a portion of the 'Taxpayer Bill of Rights' legislation signed into law by President Clinton in July of 1996. Among other provisions, the law establishes a series of intermediate sanctions (such as excise taxes and other financial penalties) for non-profits that improperly use charitable dollars to benefit directors, trustees, officers and employees. ________________________________________________________ I wonder if we 'the taxpayers' own any part of Rawat's helipad? Liandra

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:46:11 (EDT) From: Liandra Email: None To: JW Subject: Re: Let's Go Message:

I think it would be Colorado. Wonder how EV is going to squiqqle out of this one? :0 Liandra

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