Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 6
From: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 To: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 Page: 2 Of: 5


Deputy Dog -:- Scientific PROOF meditation works! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 10:53:04 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- It isn't independent research -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 16:02:14 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Then send premies there! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 13:02:11 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Re: Scientific PROOF God is Snot -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:11:22 (EDT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Is every group a cult? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:35:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ nigel -:- You've hardly started thinking for yourself, as far as I can see. -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 16:25:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Is every Scientist a braindead cult member? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:46:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- These are independent studies (NT) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 22:54:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Independent? INDEPENDENT??! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:37:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- The real studies -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:43:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: The real studies (pt 2) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:59:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- If it works, then WHY -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:46:50 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Scientific PROOF meditation works! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:56:54 (EDT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Meditation works! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:24:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Meditation works alright. -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:51:37 (EDT)
__ dv -:- Re: Scientific PROOF meditation works! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:13:07 (EDT)
__ __ Grace -:- Pranams before & after meditation? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 21:56:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Pranams before & after meditation? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 07:28:42 (EDT)
__ __ Susan -:- right on target DV! (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:28:56 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Brian? Ex-premie.org down? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 06:21:24 (EDT)
__ Brian -:- Re: Brian? Ex-premie.org down? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 14:36:59 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Is fishing good? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:14:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ CdM -:- Re: Is fishing good? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 19:12:18 (EDT)
__ CdM -:- Re: Brian? Ex-premie.org down? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 13:16:59 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Brian? Ex-premie.org down? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 13:27:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ CdM -:- Re: Brian? Ex-premie.org down? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:02:12 (EDT)

Deputy Dog -:- Stuck in the Time Warp Again! -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 22:55:55 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Too much of nothing -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 21:40:41 (EDT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Too much of nothing -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:47:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- I can't meditate for medical reasons -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 06:16:29 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- exactment, mon frere -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:07:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Grace -:- Re: exactment, mon frere -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 09:57:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: exactment, mon frere -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:57:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- The bad good old days -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 06:05:49 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Re: Stuck in the Time Warp Again! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:58:27 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Changes? Use your credit card! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:26:57 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Cha-cha-cha-changes -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:01:37 (EDT)
__ __ dv -:- Re: Changes? Use your credit card! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:14:26 (EDT)
__ Joey -:- Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose! -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 23:32:47 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- People who forget history are condemned to repeat it -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 23:04:04 (EDT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: People who forget history are condemned to repeat it -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:33:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- An Audience with whom? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:44:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: An Audience with whom? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:23:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Deputy Duped -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 12:50:22 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Jim Jones & Maharaji -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 23:16:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:47:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ AJW -:- Marianne knows nothing -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:11:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Marianne knows nothing -:- Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 22:17:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Bara -:- Jack Jones & Maharaji -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 14:08:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Geez, can't admit you were wrong? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 16:10:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- Re: Geez, can't admit you were wrong? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:21:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Wrong again, Barbara -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 01:05:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Barbara -:- To each her own -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 02:45:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Hey Barbara...... -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 04:07:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Re: Hey Barbara......please read! -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 11:36:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- One more thing Barbara.... -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 11:40:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Geez, can't admit you were wrong? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:16:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Geez, can't admit you were wrong? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:29:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Barbara -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:49:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 05:22:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ B etc. -:- Jenny Jones & Maharaji -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 14:14:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ LdM -:- Re: your undue comments Barabara (?) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:06:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sorcerer Barney -:- Casteneda was a fiction writer -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 15:39:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Casteneda was a writer -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:33:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Castenada was a fraud -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:06:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurk-a-bout -:- Re: Castenada was a fraud -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 02:50:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Castenada was a fraud -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:21:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Barabara -:- Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 03:39:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Maharaji lead a self questioning group? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:57:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:22:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gerry -:- Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:14:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Not so sure -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:20:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: the premies who did commit suicide -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 15:04:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- great post (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 16:06:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Great post, Joey -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 15:17:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- ooops.... -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 15:13:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Marrianne& Maharaji -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 07:46:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ barabarney -:- Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 05:40:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:23:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 10:16:48 (EDT)

Roger eDrek -:- Wait til Maharaji finds out! -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:06:25 (EDT)
__ CdM -:- Re: Wait til Maharaji finds out! -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 18:09:11 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: Wait til Maharaji finds out! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 10:49:04 (EDT)
__ __ JW -:- Re: Wait til Maharaji finds out! -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 12:50:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ dv -:- Re: Wait til Maharaji finds out! -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 23:32:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Grace -:- Is Annie Lennox a premie? (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 08:56:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ dv -:- Re: Is Annie Lennox a premie? (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:17:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ dv -:- Re: Is Annie Lennox a premie? (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:16:01 (EDT)

Jim -:- Give it up, Cecilia -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 11:34:18 (EDT)
__ Susan -:- isn't this a version of 'Golden Way' -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 12:51:45 (EDT)
__ __ Grace -:- Words of 'Golden Way' -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 09:51:55 (EDT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- like lemmings to the sea! (nt) -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 04:37:27 (EDT)
__ __ try this -:- This one is better -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 13:02:19 (EDT)
__ The Editor -:- Re: Give it up, Cecilia -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 12:43:25 (EDT)

owen stephens -:- jai sat chit ananda! -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 09:16:58 (EDT)
__ Happy -:- Re: jai sat chit ananda! -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 05:51:32 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- At the feet -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 10:35:56 (EDT)
__ Mickey the Pharisee -:- Re: jai sat chit ananda! -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 12:59:25 (EDT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- We need some samples online -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 14:44:37 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- JEAN-MICHEL! -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 13:15:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- YES? -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 13:31:08 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Re: jai sat chit ananda! -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 16:15:45 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- No, it wasn't me -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 21:36:24 (EDT)
__ Nigel -:- It is the Blue Aquarius album -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 15:34:44 (EDT)
__ __ Grace -:- One Foundation -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 09:46:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ George Burns -:- Good night Gracey:::)) nt -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 01:22:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Golden Way: Daya -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 12:40:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Tami Rainbow -:- Daya is my hero!! -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 16:39:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Pauline Premie -:- Re: Daya is my hero!! -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 16:53:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- 25th anniversary in Miami pulled out all the old hits -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 14:57:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Grace -:- Re: Golden Way: Daya -:- Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 14:46:10 (EDT)
__ kmdarling -:- Re: jai sat chit ananda! -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 15:34:04 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 10:53:04 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Scientific PROOF meditation works!
Message:
For more information call toll free: 888-LEARN TM (532-7686)
or E-mail: info

Copyright © 1996 Maharishi Vedic University
Comments send to: webmasterLast update 1/97

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 16:02:14 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: It isn't independent research
Message:
First, DD, scientists don't prove anything; they merely test provisional hypotheses, and refine these in the light of fresh evidence.

Yet your post claims:

Transcendental Consciousness has been found by physiological research to be a fourth major state of consciousness, a state of restful alertness, distinct from the commonly experienced states of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep.

That sounds more like advertising talk than scientific talk.

And which of these papers you have cited suggests 'transcendental consciousness' is a distinct neurophysiological state? None of these extracts seems to indicate as much, and frankly the claim sounds like a pile of (Mararishi-funded) baloney.

Were proper equally sized control groups used involving equally motivated people setting aside an equal amount of time to equally relaxing pastimes as TM?

Would you be quite as jubilant if it were found that equally sized control groups involving equally motivated people setting aside an equal amount of time to equally relaxing pastimes as TM showed equally positive results? - or are you just a premie looking for validation of M's teachings, by proxy, as it were?

Even if meditation induces a fourth physiological state (which I do not believe), would you also accept that it is merely a brain state we are talking about?

That it is not the keys to the kingdom of heaven;
- not the path to eternal liberation;
- not a merging with the universe;
- not a tapping into 'that infinite energy';
- not the discovery of the eternal part of you that carries on when your body is dead;
- not something that requires a Living Perfect Master to teach?

(BTW: do you have any statistics on rates of premie suicide in relation to population norms?)

Finally:

Research has further confirmed that large groups practicing the TM-Sidhi program together in one place-approximately the square root of one percent of the population-radiate an influence of orderliness and harmony in the society at large. This influence has been measured by a wide range of social variables, such as reduced crime, accidents, sickness, violence, and war casualties; improved economic trends; and enhanced quality of life. Validated by more than 40 studies in the past 20 years at the city, state, national and international levels, this phenomenon is called the Extended Maharishi Effect.

This one is utter pseudo-scientific bullshit - believe me. If you accept these claims without at least checking the evidence for yourself then you'll probably believe anything (- even Maharaji). And yes I have followed up and checked out the original research papers on the 'Maharashi Effect'; all were poorly designed, and not one of them has been independently verified.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 13:02:11 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Then send premies there!
Message:
According to the numerous discussions I've had with exes, premies, and as an instructor, I've witnessed that most of the people who've received Rawat's 'knowledge' never experienced anything, or very little whilst practising the meditation techniques.

Many of them have had several 'k reviews', and did the techniques according to what Mr Rawat told them.

They definitely had what they call 'an experience', but not of meditation.

What is your opinion on this?

Mine is that Mr Rawat is no valid meditation teacher. I've had meditation experiences, but only after a Vipassana 10 days course, because I was disapointed of Rawat's teaching.

I also know that some premies have/had experiences meditating.

How come there are such discrepancies?

Bad karma? Too much sex? Any idea?

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:11:22 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Scientific PROOF God is Snot
Message:
Deputy Dog,

TM is a cult, like the one you're in only not so crazy.

Listening to music has the same beneficial effects you claim for meditating. The difference is, with listening to music, you don't have to worship Mr Rawat (you don't do him any favours by this sycophantic behaviour by the way). You don't have to pay money to watch crappy videos, listen to him ramble on, believe those patterns you see is 'divine light' of believe God is snot.

Do yourself a favour Dawg, start thinking for yourself again. Maharji's cult is all washed up. You're on a ship that's resting on the mud, still tied up. There are no sharks in the water and the ship is going nowhere.

Anth the Ex-Snot gobbler.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:35:14 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Is every group a cult?
Message:
Anth,

Just look at the scientific evidence. I am thinking for myself.

DD the ex dead-man-walking.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 16:25:32 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: You've hardly started thinking for yourself, as far as I can see.
Message:
I refer you to my post above. Don't take my word for it - just check your sources. Thoughtfully.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:46:57 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Is every Scientist a braindead cult member?
Message:
Scientific evidence my arse.

I wouldn't trust a brain dead, levitating TM clone with the remote control for the TV, never mind letting them do 'scientific research' to prove that their cult has some credibility.

It's bullshit Dawg, just like what your Master peddles.

Anth the Scientist.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 22:54:47 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: These are independent studies (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:37:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Independent? INDEPENDENT??!
Message:
TM-EX NEWSLETTERTRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION EX-MEMBERS SUPPORT GROUP
Volume VI, No. 1, Winter 1994

A PARTIAL RESEARCH REVIEW

LIMITATIONS, PERILS, HARMS, LOSSES FROM THE PRACTICE OF TRANSCENDENTAL MEDITATION

Abstracted Independent TM Research With Related Subject Documentation

MIU and the TM movement place great emphasis on their ''independent' scientific research on Transcendental Meditation. A guest column special to the Des Moines Register on December 28, 1990, A View of TM from the MIU Perspective by public relations director Robert Oates,
made grandiose claims for TM, holding that 430 research studies to date clearly validate all the many behavioral and physiologicalbenefits. Oates emphasized that far more scientific research on TM has appeared than for any other program of self-improvement.'' He neglected to say, however, that the 430 studies which ''have appeared'' were performed by TM movement people or by people they
sponsor without using double-blind (1) or expectancy controls. It is in the TM movement's self-interest to create and then quote from such research for TM claims [levitation, invisibility, etc.] put forth about the practice--to enhance belief among followers; to
attract and hold more proselytes and students; to promote Maharishi's worldwide enterprise of enlightenment services and products worth $3.5 billion plus, and his plans for a quantum leap in new sales. However refined the statistical methods may be in the TM movement studies, without effective double-blind controls the outcome of any TM
research is unreliable. Such outcome is proven to be influenced directly or indirectly by the tendency a priori to confirm the researcher's indoctrinated belief in TM.
Conversely, the motivation of test subjects who began TM on their own (pre-selection), plus the subsequent influencing of those people to expect benefits from TM (placebo) have been proven to separately produce the measured benefits.
Suppressed by MIU and the TM movement are many independent research studies with tighter controls which have uncovered the following actual effects from the practice of TM:

1. No specific or broad scale special benefits.
2. Partially impaired mental faculties.
3. Depersonalization.
4. A high percentage of psychological disorders.
5. Aggravation of pre-existing mental illness.
6. The onset of mental illness.
Happy Birthday, little puppy!

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:43:10 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The real studies
Message:
From TM-EX Newsletter, Spring 1991

IOWA
MIU RESEARCH UPDATE

As the methodology of MIU researchers has improved, some of their studies report observations that challenge the validity of the TM movement's doctrinal stance; for example, a Ph.D. thesis (D, MIU, 1989, T735.494, in the MIU library) called The Transcendental Meditation technique: A new direction for smoking cessation programs. In this study, 60 percent of smokers who began TM and were still practicing TM twice daily after 20 months, quit smoking. TM may help someone to quit smoking if the individual stays with the practice for 20 months (great!).

Data also revealed that 20 months after 505 individuals began TM, 29.7 percent were no longer meditating, 38.2 percent were occasional practitioners, 13.3 percent practiced TM once a day, and only 18.8 percent still practiced TM twice daily as instructed. Some people
have long suspected that it is inaccurate for the TM movement to base assertions regarding the number of people who practice TM on the numbers of people who have been instructed. Now there is hard data in the MIU library that confirms this suspicion--in the MIU library--until
this newsletter is published, that is, because the MIU administration does have a practice of removing books not supportive of doctrinal claims made by the TM organization, as was observed and verified by Albert Miller in 1989.

A second example, a paper by Drs. John Kesterson and Noah Clinch, which was published in the March 1989 edition of the American Journal of Physiology (p. R632) reports on the most in-depth study to date on the effects of TM on respiration (breathing) and metabolic rate
(level of rest). Even using longterm meditators as subjects, including Purusha [full time male staff] members, the authors had to conclude that TM resulted in no greater level of rest than was observed in controls who sat with their eyes closed. Kesterson and Clinch also state in their paper that TMers reached the deepest levels of rest
while lying down after TM, not while practicing TM.

Maharishi's teaching is at odds with these findings. In Maharishi's teachings, enlightenment, from a physiological perspective, is said to be gained by release of stress and normalization of the nervous system due to deep rest in TM; the rest is said to be unique and deeper than sleep at night.

If TM doesn't provide any more rest than sitting with eyes closed, what's the new explanation for how it produces enlightenment on a physiological level? There isn't one. TM administrators haven't had to provide a new understanding: Instead they suppressed the findings of Kesterson and Clinch's study through selective inattention. These two MIU researchers did find a physiological indicator of TM,
but it is not one that a TM person would expect. In their subjects practicing TM, but not in control subjects, they observed a slight decrease in respiratory exchange ration, which indicates a probable increased retention of carbon dioxide (usually considered to be a waste product) by subjects during TM.~

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:59:07 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: The real studies (pt 2)
Message:
Excerpted from TM-EX Newsletters,
Fall 1990, Spring 1991, Summer 1991, Summer 1992

GERMAN STUDY:
The Various Implications Arising From the Practice of Transcendental Meditation

On May 29, 1989 the West German High court ruled the study valid.

Excerpts:

1.6.2.6 THE MANTRA AND STANDARDIZATION OF THE PROCEDURE OF THE MEDITATION

Meditation with the help of a mantra is a common method and one in great demand in Hinduism. This is because of the belief in the magical power of certain sounds or words, by the use of which the initiated can attain godly powers. On account of this the mantra must be kept secret. Although it is said in the TM movement that the mantra is a sound without meaning, the belief in the magical power of the mantra is still maintained. It may not be exchanged, and has to be a certain one chosen from Hinduism, which, according to its also does have a traditional meaning: (for example a Hindu god). In order to resolve the conflict between religiosity and scientific appearances, Maharishi
has deliberately mechanized and standardized his meditation
procedure. He has made it useful for the needs of the westerner. The type of mantra given depends on age, and the mantra is supposed to function automatically. The checking of mistakes in the practice of meditation, (called checking'') also follows a 30 point procedure. This standardization finds its theoretical expression in orgin, the description: The mechanical path to God-realization.'' It is the highest and most complete path to God-realization, which in public is often paraphrased as self-realization by the TM movement.

This interest in the occult and parapsychological phenomena, as well as the central role of evolution is their epistemology. This shows an inner relationship with Aurobindo's teachings. A more detailed analysis would almost certainly lead to the conclusion that TM is
very closely related to particular strands of neo-Hinduism, more than would appear at first glance. But a strong westernization has been intended from the start, evident up to the standardization of the meditation process.~

4.1.9 The initial positive meditation experiences together
with the promises and encouragement of the TM movement lead many to take further courses. In these courses they become more deeply involved in the teaching and ideology of transcendental meditation. They believe in the effectiveness of TM even when in the meantime negative experiences and results are evident. These are interpreted as an on-going release of stress. Far reaching changes in the perception of reality occurred, as well as changes in self-evaluation and evaluation by others. The length of time given to meditation each day increased in half of the
total cases, from 40 minutes to at least two to four hours daily; in one case to more than eight hours. This tendency is encouraged in courses, this at times being a direct instruction to meditate longer each day. As well as this meditators invest more time and energy in the TM movement.

4.3.3 TM has a detrimental effect on the decision making process. There is loss of self-determination and a turning toward the TM authorities for guidance, i.e. in the case of important decisions. Also, the variables, facial expression, bodily posture, voice and handwriting point to
the fact that the total personality is gravely altered under the influence of TM.

4.5.4 Whereas before the TM phase performance at school was well above average, and those investigated were most happy with their school or job situation, a considerable worsening in these areas occurred as a result of the practice of transcendental meditation. 56% had decreased concentration abilities during the TM phase, only 16% reported an improvement. 61% found it more difficult to manage the workload, as against 13% who reported an increased capacity. TM had a negative influence on the professional careers of 58% of meditators. Altogether
28 meditators (42%) gave up their studies or professional career in order to work full time for the TM movement or to be able to go on long courses. They did this on the basis of promises made them by the movement. An analysis of the taped interviews and the stenographer's scripts only serve to strengthen the suspicion that the TM organization aims at cheap labor, which in the case of those people who became
unfit to work in the course of time, can be sent away again without any real difficulty.

4.6.6 In 76% of cases psychological disorders and illnesses occurred, 9% of meditators had had therapeutic treatment before the TM phase,43% had psychiatric treatment or had to have medical treatment during the TM phase. The psychological disorders most prevalent were tiredness
(63%), states of anxiety'' (52%), depression (45%), nervousness (39%), and regression (39%). 26% had a nervous breakdown and 20% expressed serious suicidal tendencies. Psychological illness already present before the TM phase worsened considerably. TM can cause mental illness
or at the very least prepare the way for the onset of mental illness. A lack of opportunity for the treatment of meditation experiences and/or altered perception of reality create suitable conditions for a pathogenic appearance. Added to this is the heightened delicacy and increasing helplessness in the personality of the meditator, which
can develop into a complete depersonalization.

5.3.2 Karma and Stress. Maharishi had the idea of giving the hinduistic concept 'karma' the same significance as the concept of 'stress.' In doing this, 'stress' was attributed (in a westernized form), hinduistic-religious concepts. TM had, for the western world, the key with which all positive and negative aspects of life could be
afforded a paritcular significance. All negative effects of the meditation are attributed to 'bad karma' or 'knots of stress,' when they occur in meditators. When either during or after the meditation a meditator feels unwell, he is, according to TM theory, 'unstressing.' TM doctors diagnose this.

Whoever walks the road of 'unstressing' should personally avoid all possible outside causes of stress, since the atmosphere (around him) could lead to a negative accumulation and consequently a hindering of his own development.

The personal unstressing on the part of the meditator has as a consequence a reduction in contact with people and a reduction in relationships. We can deduce here that the western concept of 'stress' (the curing of which constitutes a large part of the promises
made in TM advertising), has its cause in 'karma.' This
'relationship' between the two is only known to insiders.

5.6.4 The suspicion grows that the meditation offered by TM, caused, in the meditators' cases which we have investigated, a far reaching alteration in the view of reality, which damages or causes further damage to social relationships, the drive to achieve (motivation) is considerably lessened, to the degree that practical work (i.e. in a job) becomes intolerable to the meditator, in addition to all conditions brought about by the intense practice of the meditation, it gives rise to physical and mental damage.

7.1.2 DECEPTION IN THE INITIATION INTO TM Even at the beginning of the new meditator's contact with TM, he is being knowingly deceived. The true meaning of the puja is kept from him and it is claimed that mantras are specially chosen for the new initiates. In fact they are given out according to the age group of the person being initiated.
Only one person knew during the initiation ceremony that the puja was a religious invocation. None of the meditators knew what the translation of the puja was, which is celebrated in Sanskrit during the ceremony. All ex-meditators in our study were told that the mantra was a sound without meaning and none knew that the mantra was given out in a standardized way (i.e. other people of the same age would receive the same mantra). Every meditator kept the mantra a secret. That they all kept the mantra
to themselves is an indication of the strong influence of TM and a foundation of further unquestioning obedience to TM directives.

7.5 SIDHA-LANDS In recent years there has been effort made by the TM movement to set up economically self-sufficient Sidhalands, in which meditators live and meditate, as well as having the opportunity to work in one of the TM concerns set up there. This institutionalization reflects the real attitudes of meditators. The attitude of the emigrant,
who withdraws from all areas of social intercourse and can finally only be happy in his meditation and its institutionalized form. One of TM's formula/mottos, to meditate and be active' is fulfilled in the Sidha-lands. The double-talk employed by TM would rule out an
ordinary interpretation of this last sentence, i.e. that meditation is only fulfilled or effective when the meditator engages in energetic activity. Although TM gives this impression by its use of everyday language in its advertising, what TM really means by meditate and
be active' is something completely different. The meditation and activity are directed solely towards TM and its organization. Only when directed towards the organization can a meditator engage in meaningful activity,
and in doing this he will also work effectively for his own evolution. Therefore it is not an activity in the social sense (social welfare)which is required, rather an activity in accord with evolution''and the laws of nature''. Sidhalands offer the opportunity of undisturbed
meditation, far away from outside influence. In a sidhaland a person can wish himself anything he desires; the Sidhaland becomes a land of milk and honey.

JUDGMENT OF GERMAN COURT

The ruling of the highest federal administrative tribunal, the Bundesverwaltungsgericht on May 24, 1989 in Case number 7 C 2.87 is:

1) The Federal Government is competent and allowed to care about cults.

2) The Federal Government is allowed to warn of TM.

3) The Federal Government is allowed to designate TM a Youth Religion''as well as a Psychogroup.''

4) The Federal Government is allowed to say that TM is taught by teachers who are not qualified [to deal with the TM problems].

5) The Federal Government is allowed to say TM can cause psychic defects or destruction of personality.

The Various Implications Arising From The Practice of Transcendental Meditation

The study was commissioned by the German Government Ministry of Youth,Family and Health, the physical and social implications of the practice of TM being of primary interest. The investigation has as its aim to systematically establish the motives of an individual for beginning TM, the implications of the practice for this individual and his social circle, as well as to pinpoint the reasons for a voluntary or involuntary ceasing of TM meditation, or, in some cases, individuals distancing
themselves from the movement. Moreover the relationship between the underlying world view, inherent in TM, and the practice as presented to the public was analyzed as to its effect on some individuals. The study offers an introduction into the teaching and practice of TM
based on the movement's own presentation of itself and its aims, which in turn lead to the hidden religious background. [Editor's Note:
A translation is available from TM-EX .]~

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:46:50 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: If it works, then WHY
Message:
do you have to be a devotee of Mr Prempal Rawat ?

Shall I recall what he said about it?

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:56:54 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Scientific PROOF meditation works!
Message:
These very biased reports about meditation have been around since the 1960s. If one looks then there's an equal amount of info about how bad meditation is for you.

There are many different types of meditation and there's many different types of people and I don't think it's sensible to try to draw a catch-all conclusion about this.

But think about this. What is your motive for posting this info? Are you attempting to get people here to meditate or are you trying to justify your own beliefs? Are your beliefs shaky and do they require you to propogate them in order for you to feel strengthened in them? Or do you feel so full of joy that you cannot help but tell the world!?

One thing I've learned with age is that just because I feel enthusiastic about something, it doesn't mean other people will. Also, if you try to force an idea down someone's throat they will react against that idea. Likewise, if you tell people that you know the truth and they don't, your character and person will be scrutinised to see if you match up to this supposed enlightenment.

If you fail to match up to this enlightened state in your demeanour and if you fail to enthuse others by your brilliance then for all intents and purposes, you're pissing in the wind.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:24:34 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Meditation works!
Message:
Sir Dave,

I was trying to take it out of the realm of opinion into the realm of objective science. That's all. You can't argue with objective scientific studies. Meditation works! These studies prove it. End of story.

I've done TM and prefer K. I don't claim to be enlightened. Just trying to help people help themselves. Been a selfish asshole for most of my life, maybe it's time I did something for other people.

And as far as pissing in the wind goes, if that's your picture, (which I doubt) it would be real easy for you.

DD

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:51:37 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Meditation works alright.
Message:
it sure beats having a job, that's for sure.

Medition allows you to make a fortune by charging meditators to watch crap videos.

Meditation allows you to get yourself worshipped as the Living God by thousands of confused followers.

Meditation is the bait.

Once you swallow it, who knows where you'll be dragged.

Shit, you could even find yourself lining up, putting your hard earned cash into an envelope, handing it over, then kissing some silly sod's feet.

Meditation works alright, but not in the way you think DD.

Anth the Born Again Agnostic

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:13:07 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Scientific PROOF meditation works!
Message:
Not surprising- I would think doing anything relaxing would be beneficial to the body. Just keep the pranams out of the beginning and end of the meditation sessions!
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 21:56:20 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Pranams before & after meditation?
Message:
Is this where you are supposed to have an altar with Maharaji's picture and bow to it? Was this a common practice of premies? I know some people that had altars to him years ago, but don't know what they did with them.
Explanations anyone?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 07:28:42 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Pranams before & after meditation?
Message:
In the ashram it was politically incorrect NOT to do pranam before and after meditation, before and after giving satsang (discourse) and everybody threw themselves face-down onto the carpet in front of Maharaji's picture after singing arti (devotional hymn).

Personally, I think doing pranam isn't a bad thing although only if one realises that one does it to God and not a guy who is pretending to be God. Pranam really is a form of prayer in which one is sybolically prostrating to a higher power. In itself it can be a beneficial practise and even a reliever of stress and worry.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:28:56 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: right on target DV! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 06:21:24 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Brian? Ex-premie.org down?
Message:
Hi Brian,

Any problem with ex-premie.org?
Is the server down?
Or merely the connection between US and France?

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 14:36:59 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Brian? Ex-premie.org down?
Message:
We're out of town right now. I just found out about the problem when I tried to check on the site a few minutes ago. Couldn't get a DNS resolution, so beats me. If it's a temporary problem, it'll clear up soon. Otherwise, it might have to wait until we return home in about a week.

That site REALLY needs a French webmaster, you know... :)

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:14:45 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Is fishing good?
Message:
At least bring some good catch.

I know some good French recipe ...

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 19:12:18 (EDT)
From: CdM
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Is fishing good?
Message:
Dear JM,

I was only guessing that Brian might be fishing. However you reveal your Frenchiness as you begin to enthuse about food.

I began my years with the guru squad living with a French premie. He was a talented cook and inadvertently helped to trap me in the cult with his culinary skills. I recall most premie cooking was very bland at that time. Patrice would hate to think his praises were being sung on Ex-Premie Forum, he was sentenced to life I think. He's still a good cook although now in liberated times the vegetarianism is no longer called for.

Was it hard for you having to eat crap food for so many years or did French premies cook lentils au provençal?

Charlie

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 13:16:59 (EDT)
From: CdM
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Brian? Ex-premie.org down?
Message:
I can't seem to get through to EPO either. Perhaps the server is down. If it requires Brian to reboot it I suspect we'll be waiting for a few more days. I think he might have gone fishing.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 13:27:35 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: CdM
Subject: Re: Brian? Ex-premie.org down?
Message:
I hope he's going to bring some good catch ...

What do you have there?

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:02:12 (EDT)
From: CdM
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Brian? Ex-premie.org down?
Message:
Jean-Michel

I'm not precisely sure what you mean by that question but I did have some Scottish rainbow trout for my supper this evening. Yum yum

Charlie the ex-vegetarian

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 22:55:55 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Stuck in the Time Warp Again!
Message:
There was a hugely popular film in my town in the 70s, 'Rocky Horror Picture Show.' I can distinctly remember three midnight viewings. People dressed up (not me), that familiar pungent smell in the air, people waving lighters, quite a scene. There was a song in that film that entitled 'Stuck in the Time Warp Again.'

Why do I mention this? Because that's where most ex-es are, stuck in a 70s time warp. Things change!

DD

(I sent this note earlier to Let Them Eat Cake, but I think it's worth repeating)

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 21:40:41 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Too much of nothing
Message:
I appreciate your point of view and your motivation. There is a gulf that exists between you and I. It is a gulf born out, not from personality but from history. I could so easily be saying the same things as you but I took a different turn.

What made a premie during the seventies; sincerety, love and a desire to be close to the Lord of all. This was never anything to sneeze at because some of us gave our lives to being a premie. We gave our lives to the Lord of love.

When you have given all and taken it to the limit because of love; today's Maharaji trip is a shadow in comparison. A mere shadow of the dream that we had and that Maharaji and the cult instilled in us.

Many of us were burnt out by the end of it. Today's trip of 'appreciation' and 'enjoying life' is a sick joke in comparison to what we thought we were giving our lives to. But if you didn't live it then, you will not see what we see now.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:47:51 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Too much of nothing
Message:
Dave,

I wouldn't call the way things are now a sick joke. Things change that's all. The whole peace and love movement of the 60s looks quaint and naive from where we stand now doesn't it? It was a phase, an era that's gone. I don't know about you but I used to carry a lot of Woodstock crap in my head.

I can tell you are a sincere guy. If you don't mind taking advice from a premie, I suggest you keep meditating, try other kinds of meditation if you like, and do whatever you can to enjoy your life. After all it's your life.

DD

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 06:16:29 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: I can't meditate for medical reasons
Message:
I have a brain disease called myalgic encephelomyelitis (ME) and my brain is super sensitive to chemical changes in it. If I do meditation I get agonising headaches and feel sick and dizzy. I sometimes do a bit but the above symptoms always come back when I do so I quit.

This idea that has been implanted in you that meditation is the be-all-and-end-all is a myth. It's a matter of personal preference. For instance, I have an oil burner and use essensial oils in my house and also when I have a bath but while I can extoll the virtues of essensial oils, I wouldn't expect other people to use them or think that they SHOULD use them.

I have practised meditation and I have at times gone very deep into it. I know what it's about. Such is true for most of the people on this page.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:07:09 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: exactment, mon frere
Message:
Absolutely true, David. I'm just glad the cult did deteriorate into this wishy-washy mess. Makes it harder to nostalgize the 'good ol' days' (a la the The Night Porter syndrome).
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 09:57:58 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: exactment, mon frere
Message:
You can't have it both ways. We both know the life controlling aspect of it was too much in the early days, so now it's 'do whatever you want with your life, just meditate and 'stay in touch' '. It was a major pendulum swing, but less harmful to be 'wishy-washy' than rigid.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:57:27 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: exactment, mon frere
Message:
I agree the cult isn't as bad as it used to be. We had a number of premie suicides in Vancouver in the early and mid '70's that are directly attributable to the pressure of trying to surrender one's mind to the 'living Lord'. No, shit was much more intense then, no doubt about it.

My criticism is that it's still a worthless and debilitating cult. People might not be killing themselves over Maharaji anymore but their minds are mushed out (as someone nicely said the other day), their time is wasted and the guy responsible for it all boasts to the world that he's now become a 'successful private investor'. He should be stopped if for no other reason than that he doesn't deserve anything less.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 06:05:49 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The bad good old days
Message:
I have this awful feeling that if the cult hadn't petered out in Britain in 1983 then I would have stuck with it throughout the eighties because it had become a habit by then. My social life was satsang, my interests were doing service and meditation, when it happened and I was stuck in one God awfull rut and going nowhere. Of course, I had visions of being 'called up' to the lotus feet at any moment. I had to dream, didn't I.

I'm glad it was just a cult because if Maharaji really had been the Lord, how the hell could we have sold his trip to the masses? And what kind of brain dead vegetables, spouting the word of the Lord would we be by now?

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:58:27 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Stuck in the Time Warp Again!
Message:
Hey Dawg, you're the one with the guru, still meditating away, believing all that spritual bullshit that most people had grown out of by 1973.

You're one of the last premies in the West. It's all over Dawg. Go back to your home, start thinking for yourself again.

What's the big rush to merge with the creator? You're gonna die anyway.

Anth le moderne.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:26:57 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Changes? Use your credit card!
Message:
Changes since the 70s:

- You may now use your cerdit card to do service.

- No altar at the satsang anymore, simply that huge animated picture of the Lord in Human Form called a 'video event'.

- No ashrams anymore for selected people: lands where anybody can spend a few weeks a year dedicating his life to the Living Master and enjoy his darshan.

- No beragons anymore. That's the nice one. You may use cushions, and sit in an armchair!

- please help me for the rest ....

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:01:37 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Cha-cha-cha-changes
Message:
Bonjour Jean Michel,

We've got a teacher instead of a Satguru.

A cult in decline instead of ascent.

Chicken instead of lentils.

Feet instead of Holy Lotuses.

Volunteer workers instead of servants.

Videos instead of real people talking.

Instructors instead of Mahatmas.

An inner experience instead of a mission to the world.

Lots of fat bald men instead of young idealists.

Fat grey women instead of young idealists.

Events instead of festivals.

Guinness instead of charanamrit.

A load of crap pap in a glossy magazine instead of a load of crap pap in...oh well, some things never change.

A bientot

Anth le fat grey homme.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:14:26 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Changes? Use your credit card!
Message:
You can lie down while meditating- I liked that one!
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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 23:32:47 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose!
Message:
You bet things change!

In the 70's MJ told us 'surrender the reigns of your life'

In 1998 he said:
'You want to hold onto your principles? You want to know whats going to happen to you? I'll tell you what's going to happen. Your ship going to sink! You want to hold onto your principles?? You want to know whats going to happen? I'll tell you what's going to happen! You're going to die!!'

So in the 70's it was about us giving up control over our lives, so that he could impose his own control. In the 90's it was about us abandoning our principles so that he could impose his own.

And you say things change?!

Its not really exes who are stuck in a time warp, DD. Its premies who are stuck in a mind warp.

And that hasn't changed either.

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 23:04:04 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: People who forget history are condemned to repeat it
Message:
DD,

Maharaji, former Lord of the Universe, now successful private investor, made his fortune in the past. He became a Master in the past. He thoroughly milks all the bullshit glory he can from his father's past and he trapped me in his ashram in the past. If he had to rely on today and today alone he'd have nothing. (Soon, the authorities may catch up with him and he'll really have nothing. How's them apples, by the way?)

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:33:56 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: People who forget history are condemned to repeat it
Message:
Jim,

Don't cry over spilt milk. The past is dead and gone.

I can't believe an intelligent guy like you was 'trapped' in an ashram? There must have been something else going on there. Or you must have had a totally different personality.

You liken M to humpty Dumpty? Well all the kings horses and all the kings men can't put the past together again.

I personally think you deserve an audience with M. The Pope give audiences why not M. You might come to some resolution. Maybe the phone call will lead to something.

DD

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:44:11 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: An Audience with whom?
Message:
Deputy Dawg,

I suspect you're not coming clean here.

Maharaji thinks he's the most recent in a lineage of every master that ever walked the Earth- the creator in human form. First Buddha, then Jesus, then Mohammed, and now, with more power than ever before... you know the story.

Do you agree with his view of himself? Do you think he's the creator in all his glory, walking amongst us- the creation?

Cos if you do Deputy Dawg, you've been confused. If you were around in the 70s, you were probably brainwashed. It used to be called 'satsang', but really it was brainwashing. I took part, became brainwashed myself, then helped brainwash others.

So, whaddya think about Mr Rawat then? Lord on earth or what deputy devotee?

Anth the curious.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:23:58 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: An Audience with whom?
Message:
Anth,

TM is a meditation practice that has been proven to be effective in at least 500 independent studies. And you can benefit from it. How clean is that? That's pretty straightforward isn't it? Meditation works because science proves it does. No Hindu fairy tails, no subjecive hypnosis, cold hard scientific facts.

As far as M being Lord of Universe - don't want to go there.
I'm agnostic.

DD the guy who thinks for himself.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 12:50:22 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Deputy Duped
Message:
Deputy,

What's all this TM bollocks about? Are you a TM clone, peddling your wares over here?

Are you a premie who's head is so distorted by plastic spiritual practice that he really thinks that 'studies' carried out by cult members, on how well their cult practices work are really objective and scientific. If you believe that Deputy Dawg, I'd recommend getting into the more practical things in life, like gardening or fishing. Leave all this 'thinking about science and meditation' to us godless freaks.

And why are you scared to talk to me about your master?

Anth the Test Tube Baby

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 23:16:29 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim Jones & Maharaji
Message:
I will repeat this again for those who have never read it. Jim Jones had a throne at Jonestown. There was a plaque above it which read: Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

Remember Jonestown. Be educated about the past of Maharaji and DLM/EV.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:47:57 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji
Message:
Mairanne,

Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it? I disagree! Those who REMEMBER the past are condemned to repeat it.

Those who transcend the past (which by the way is stored in the mind) are free, they have risen above the stimulus-response, they are free to choose what they want.

Unlike Jim Jones who had a twisted left wing theology, M holds up a glass of water and says, 'Can you be like this? Clear, colorless, odorless, able to fit any container.'

Even Casteneda's wacky sorcerer told him to transcend his personal history. That's what it means to be clear and impeccable. That's what the whole lotus analogy is about.

DD

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:11:41 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Marianne knows nothing
Message:
Of course Marianne knows nothing about your master, and licking snot, concentrating on her breath and all that bollocks. Neither do I. Sure I tried it for 25 years or so, and spent a bit of time with the guru, (read my Journey at Ex-premie.com) but I don't know anything anymore do I Cat? Neither do the other 37,000 people who tried it and quit in this country.

The only people who know anything about it are the chosen disciples of the living lord right cat? Those who bathe in his love and live by his grace? People like you cat, who hand over hundreds of dollars every year in cash and unpaid labour.

You're the one's who know right?

Marianne, we're out of our league here.

Anth the blinded by the light.

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Date: Sat, Oct 09, 1999 at 22:17:35 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Don't be so condescending Anth , it demeans you.
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Marianne knows nothing
Message:
Anth ' you've met me on more than one occasion . Not surprising really considering as you say , the last 25 years of our lives. Marrianne spent a few years of her teenage life caught up in the local DLM of the time. You may be qualified to speak about your expierience over a very long period. She is not.I have read your journey and Marrianne's too.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 14:08:22 (EDT)
From: Bara
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Jack Jones & Maharaji
Message:
'It is the education I have received here that has soured me on him and his trip entirely.'

I'll just let that sentence stand as it is.

And yes, all spelling bee participants, I've left the bar behind me.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 16:10:02 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Bara
Subject: Geez, can't admit you were wrong?
Message:
So Barabara can't admit she knew zip about Peoples Temple? You're myopic. Go meditate and figure out how to contribute to the real world. The one M has you in sure isn't it.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:21:01 (EDT)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Geez, can't admit you were wrong?
Message:
Marianne,

I stand corrected and remove the phrase 'short-term.' And I admittedly have very little respect for youngish, healthy people who take their own lives. You completely failed to address the crux of the matter, however. Somehow, I knew you would.

Can YOU cop to the vast difference between someone whose most violent act is spraying people he loves with colored water, much to their pleasure, and a man who orders his followers to drink cyanide-laced Kool-aid and kills them? Are you capable of even THAT degree of fairness?

I'm sure you know far more about the PT than I do, or would ever want to. That's not really the point.

And I do, in fact, live very happily and prosperously in the real world. I admire what you do for work. I don't admire your cheap, nasty and ridiculous shots at a guy you seem to never have met or understand at all, other than 'the education I have received here has soured me on him and his trip entirely.' Gossip, bullshit and bile.

'Learning' about Maharaji here and considering it even a vaguely balanced appraisal is a bit like taking a seminar in true friendship from Linda Tripp or sportsmanship from Tonya Harding. I've never met the man YOU'RE talking about. Sounds like a convenient invention for getting your ya-yas out. A nice, easy long-distance scapegoat and all-purpose receptacle for your frustrations and angst. And the real M is NOWHERE to be found in your picture.

Barbara

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 01:05:06 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Wrong again, Barbara
Message:
Barbara: You really should not fight with me about this topic, because it is a losing battle. You say, 'And I admittedly have very little respect for youngish, healthy people who take their own lives.' Well Barbara, surprise! The people who died at Jonestown were also middle aged adults and elderly people. 914 died there. So put your misinformation away once again.

No, Maharaji has not, as far as I know, asked people to commit suicide on demand. But what I do know is that when I became involved, I and others were asked whether we would harm ourselves or others in order to receive knowledge. You could not receive knowledge if you said no. The psychological demands of DLM/EV were just the same as those required by Jim Jones. You have no basis to dispute me because you do not have the background I have.

And I will tell you this Barbara, through my representation of people on death row, I have learned that psychological or emotional violence are much more damaging to a person than physical violence. So, your analogy about Holi is totally irrelevant. We got into this whole discussion because you disputed my comparison of Rawat and Jim Jones. You said, 'There is virtually NO similarity between Maharaji and Jim Jones (other than perhaps tha chairs) to even the most casual, intelligent observer.' I have provided you with many similarities which you, in true premie think, have chosen to ignore. My work with people who face execution has taught me that physical violence is the functional equivalent of emotional violence to a person. Rawat's dimunition of premies' souls and psyches falls into the same category as the physical violence perpetrated by Jones. You will never understand this until you leave the cult. By the way Barbara, if that is your real name, what's your relationship with your family over the term of your premiedom?

No, I've never met Rawat. Most of us never could. One time when Arthur Brigham called me and asked me to donate my father's bequest to me after he committed suicide, I asked if I could bring it to Rawat in person. Arthur recoiled in horror that I would make such a request. It was perfectly fine for him to ask for my father's death money, but horribly offensive for me to want to meet the person to whom I was expected to give it. Silly me. So, unlike you apparently, I did not get the chance to meet my Master. You must have more money than me.

You are misguided.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 02:45:08 (EDT)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: To each her own
Message:
Well Marianne,

We're not getting any closer in our communication so I won't belabor the issue. I have already ceded to you your superior knowledge of the PT. That was never my point. The rest of what you say just doesn't square with my own experience one iota so...c'est la vie! Out of courtesy, I'll answer the questions you posed to me and then I'm off to more pleasurable and meaningful (for me) pursuits.

'what's your relationship with your family over the term of your premiedom?'

It is, and generally has been, close and loving.

'I've never met Rawat. Most of us never could.'

I've met him and spoken with him a bunch of times and most of the people I know who love and respect him have met him and talked with him at some or many points. He doesn't jive with your theoretical portrait whatsoever, nor has his behavior been similar to what's painted on this list. That's after 27 years of fairly close observation, not gossip after God-knows how many years from someone who never even met the man. That's why I take issue with your attempt to lump him in with a man who, in essence, killed his followers. You can't see the difference? Fine, I've got plenty of other things to do. Think what you like, regardless of how far it might be from any reality.

'You must have more money than me.'

Another cheap shot for an easy yuck from your amen corner. I have no idea what you make. I live comfortably but not in the fantasy people-with-a-lot-of-dough that get to see the Master mold that you'd love to see buffered. My personal interplay with Maharaji has been consistently delightful, intelligent and inspiring. Spontaneous and full of fun, life and love.

'You are misguided.'

Thanks for the truly informed analysis. You certainly know me well enough to make it.

Enjoy your life, Barbara

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 04:07:31 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Hey Barbara......
Message:
Since you've been around prem for 27 years, there's a good chance that you know Gary Gerrard.
Would you mind asking him to post here so that everyone can understand prempal's teachings?
You see many ordinary people see breaking someone's nose as a violant act and not as a devotional gift.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 11:36:19 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Barbara!
Subject: Re: Hey Barbara......please read!
Message:
Barbara, I know you will probably forget I told you this BUT....would you please ask Mr. Rawat ( since you are so close and all) about Jagdeo. I want to know if ANYTHING at all was done and if he is in place that he cannot hurt kids anymore. I want to know what was done. Why was he allowed to tour for all those years after I informed him? Barbara, could you please?

I know Mr. Rawat is just a human now, so asking him such a difficult question should be acceptable. I am sure he will understand you are justifyably concerned. Please Barbara. It is really important.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 11:40:46 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: One more thing Barbara....
Message:
Can you print out, for your conversatation with him, Abi's letter? I think it is very important that he has to see what Jagdeo was doing to children who were so much younger than I was. Important to see how Abi was praying to Guru Maharaj Ji for protection while she was being violated by his representative. Since Mr. Rawat is a human being he should know that little children prayed to him while they were being attacked by his mahatama he sent around the world spreading Knowledge.

Please do this Barbara.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:16:26 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: Geez, can't admit you were wrong?
Message:
'Can YOU cop to the vast difference between someone whose most violent act is spraying people he loves with colored water, ...'

Did you ever know Gary Gerrard. Your Master broke his(Gary's) nose with a stick...and when Gary made some noise indicating that he was in pain, your master said 'Well, would you rather I didn't touch you?'
Your master has to be one of the worst examples of how a human being should behave.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:29:33 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Geez, can't admit you were wrong?
Message:
In addition to Jethro's example of what happened to Gary, I think it's important to remember that violence isn't always physical.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:49:57 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Barbara
Message:
The former PAMs I have spoken with have relayed some more violent and nasty sides to M than spraying Holi water. But I admit, no Kool Aid parties.

I myself have no firsthand experience with M outside darshan lines and seeing him close up once when he walked past me on a street. He was very very short. That is what I learned from that experience.

But most premies, like myself, don't have any real personal experience with him. Conversations with M are not something that most premies have outside of darhan dreams. Is it fair that because he shields himself so well from his devotees/followers/students that he becomes beyond scrutiny? I do not think so. I have no personal experience with lots of famous people I critisize or admire. Certainly there may be facts outside the public domain about these people. But the facts in the public domain about Rawat are bad enough.

Perhaps this line of reasoning irks me so because I had to rely on intermediaries to tell Rawat about Jagdeo. As I have said ad nausuem I know they got the word through. But isn't it interesting, how his lack of accessability has protected him in this case? It probably protects him in a lot of cases.

You are using it to protect him.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 05:22:06 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Barabara
Subject: Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji
Message:
But would you listen to someone who can't even spell their own name?
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 14:14:10 (EDT)
From: B etc.
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Jenny Jones & Maharaji
Message:
That's how it's spelled in Bora Bora, Dave. They love me in the islands.

Barabara

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:06:04 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: B etc.
Subject: Re: your undue comments Barabara (?)
Message:
How long have you had the knowledge Barabara? Playing a one-upmanship game where you have had knowledge longer than someone else, so therefore your experience is better, does not wash here - of course, it works in the premie world just fine.

By the way, do you think that your defensive stance re maharaji is helping him? Does he really need your help? Instead, why don't you examine your motives for posting here. REALLY examine them.

All the best

Lee

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 15:39:36 (EDT)
From: Sorcerer Barney
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Casteneda was a fiction writer
Message:
Uh, we've had that conversation before. Maybe Casteneda had a sorcerer, but in my opinion it don't matter because Casteneda wrote fiction.

In fact, if you're into that sort of stuff try Popeye - I am what I am.

Those who transcend the past (which by the way is stored in the mind) are free, they have risen above the stimulus-response, they are free to choose what they want.

Geez! You are the big psycho-babble, enlightened naive fool if you believe that. I don't think that Maharaji even tries to sell that concept. That comment is one of the reasons why Maharaji doesn't let premies give satsang anymore. What a total crock!

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:33:35 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Sorcerer Barney
Subject: Casteneda was a writer
Message:
Barn,

Where pray tell does the past exist for you? Most people believe that we record our experiences of life in our brain. These recordings are sometimes called memories and they are stored in the mind. That's pretty elemental psychology isn't it?

DD

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:06:01 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Castenada was a fraud
Message:
DD,

I know much about this man. A friend of mine published a book called Carlos Castenada: Academic Opportunism in the Psychedelic Sixties and I became extremely familiar with the whole situation. Castenada was a fraud thorugh and through. An asshole as well. Cut his wife and son out of everything, left it all to his little cult of sirens.

But the main point is he was a liar. No Don Juan, no nothing.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 02:50:09 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurk-a-bout
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Castenada was a fraud
Message:
Would that explain why when I went to the mountains with a a bunch of peyote I couldn't duplicate it - I had completley forgotten that book - what a long strange trip its been. that was right after I read the 'Book of The Hopi'
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:21:10 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Castenada was a fraud
Message:
From what I heard, Castaneda was a Don Juan.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 03:39:19 (EDT)
From: Barabara
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji
Message:
Marianne,

Of all the silly and baseless things you've written, and there have been a few, this takes the proverbial cake. There is virtually NO similarity between Maharaji and Jim Jones (other than perhaps the chairs) to even the most casual, intelligent observer.

Maharaji has maintained a non-violent and self-questioning and changing group for over 30 years and he has never encouraged or inspired ANYONE to violence ( all of you waiting to yell about Jagdeo or Fakirinand, please sit down, your one note has become all too obvious). What he teaches, leads people (most people, sorry if you don't feel among them) to a greater awareness of the preciousness of their own lives on a moment to moment basis. And, at the very least, the people who love him include virtually every single type of human being, from every part of the globe and EVERY philosophical or religious persuasion. You don't like him, fine.

You know, all too well, that you could characterize Jim Jones' followers very, very easily in contrast to the divergent group that still, astonishlingly, adores Maharaji. I DEFY you to, in ANY intellectually honest way, tell me otherwise.

Of course, it's quite obvious from what you write, that you have NO idea what's happened with Maharaji in many, many years and you're just going on the tripe you read here added to the bitterness that you've accumulated for whatever reason. Be that as it may, I still defy you to in any HONEST way lump together Maharaji's wild, long-term (30 years) and raggedly diverse group the same way one would lump together Jim Jones' small, short-term, sadly unconscious, pathetic and one-dimensional group of masochistic misfits. If you're at all honest, you'll put that lame canard to rest.

Let's see.

Barbara

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:57:52 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: Barabara
Subject: Maharaji lead a self questioning group?
Message:
Maharaji leads a self questioning group? Now that's a laugh. Tell me when and where he questioned himself or the group. What happened to the demand that we 'never leave room for doubt in our minds'? That's what premies said whenever anyone asked questions in my communities.

If Rawat is so self questioning, tell him to send Jagdeo down to the police for some of that self questioning.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:22:36 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Barabara
Subject: Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji
Message:
Sorry Barbara, but they do compare. I agree Rawat has never pulled a Kool Aid test. But, at least in the '70s, sorry about the time warp, if he had, lets say in Orlando, I think some people would have drank right up. Some too would have run screaming, but so did some of Jim Jones followers. I guess neither were perfect masters. ( As in master/slave..which I think is the true master/ devotee relationship...similar to the relationship I have with my dog.)

It I is SCARY that any human could have the power over other humans like Rawat, Moon, Jones and the likes. I distinctly recall people in my knowledge session being asked if they wre willing to cut off their heads for the guru. If you wanted K you said yes. SCARY.

Somewhere on this page I said that I think as cult leaders go Rawat does less obvious damage than others. Manson had followers commit murder, Jones the mass suicide and murder of those children and other who would not go along, Moon the mass marraiges, Scientology the violence in defending its image....I do think our cult leader has been a lot more peace loving than some. BUT...the real point is, lots of people would follow him over the brink. Lots of people. I do not really like to speculate on now because I am not involved, but when I was, sure...if he had told us who to marry, we would. TOld the WPC to kill to defend him, they would. Kill the Tates and LaBiancas...I think SOME would have. Kills themselves? I think there would have been a mass suicide, along with a few with INSTANTANEOUS deprogramming. God I hope I would have been among them.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:14:45 (EDT)
From: gerry
Email: None
To: Barabara
Subject: Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji
Message:
Jim Jones' small, short-term, sadly unconscious, pathetic and one-dimensional group of masochistic misfits. If you're at all honest, you'll put that lame canard to rest.

I'm shocked at your characterization of your fellow human beings and spiritual seekers. These people are your brothers and sisters. Don't you realize that simple fact, after so many years in meditation and in service at the lotus feet of the Living Master of our time?

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 09:20:39 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Barabara
Subject: Not so sure
Message:
about Rawat's own sanity, and this is where the problem lies IMO.

I've been a direct witness of him saying so weird things, like in the Mauritius 'participation' conference (in 95 or 96). I challenge anybody from EV to get an unedited copy of the whole conference and circulate it. You'd be AMAZED.

A person like him, obviously convinced of his supernatural powers and godliness, can't be trusted.

I agree with you that beside threats from him, and actions of mahatmas and overexcited devotees, there is no evidence of physical violence around Rawat.

I'm no criminal expert, but I think you can't predict anything in such a weird environment.

My feeling is that so many premies are really desperate, and cling to him because of their devotional link. I've discussed this again this morning with another ex here.

By the way, he recently went to a video conference, and the hall was almost empty (Paris is the major city in France reg the number of premies, and there used to be an average of over 100 participants to every video a few years back - and he had to pay about $ 15 to watch 1 video!)

Most of the premies don't have ANY experience of meditation, haven't realized ANYTHING, and their experience is merely one of devotion, triggered again and again watching videos and having darshan from time to time.

Anything can happen in that sort of situation, specially with an insane/unpredictable 'master'.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 15:04:01 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: the premies who did commit suicide
Message:
Most of the premies don't have ANY experience of meditation, haven't realized ANYTHING, and their experience is merely one of devotion, triggered again and again watching videos and having darshan from time to time.

Anything can happen in that sort of situation, specially with an insane/unpredictable 'master'.

How true Marianne. And yet do we need m to have his own version of Jonestown to finally come to terms with just how pathetic this stinkinking little cult is?

What about all the premies who left this world, not as a group drinking Kool-Aid at the feet of their master, but as individuals, one by one, out of whatever sense of despair plagued them... a despair that wasn't cured by the 'Knowledge of all Knowledges,' but only exacerbated.

If their true numbers could be known, the world would finally understand that m really doesn't need to have his own Jonestown.
In his own way, he's already had his Maharajitown.

And when I think of those premies who committed suicide, the following words come to mind.

From Chidiock Tichborne,'Elegy'

My tale was heard, and yet it was not told;
My fruit is fallen, and yet my leaves are green;
My youth is spent, and yet I am not old;
I saw the world, and yet I was not seen;
My thread is cut, and yet it is not spun;
And now I live, and now my life is done.

May there be no more, for us to remember on these pages.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 16:06:11 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: great post (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 15:17:52 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Great post, Joey
Message:
Joey: Thanks for that post, but you quoted Jean-Michel's comments, not mine. I wish I could take credit, but....

Joey, you have made an important point here. There are a number of premies who did commit suicide as a result of their involvement with M and his cult. Another fact Barbara will try to explain away....

Thank you for reminding us.

Marianne

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 15:13:51 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: JM, Marianne
Subject: ooops....
Message:
...sorry JM, the quote that I started my post with was yours and not Marianne's.

My apology to you both (although I have a feeling it might not really be necessary on this one:)

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 07:46:42 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Barabara /Marrianne
Subject: Re: Marrianne& Maharaji
Message:
Marianne left knowledge when she was seventeen? Of course your correct Barb,but hell, a Girl's got to have a hobby and hey, if its presented like a moral crusade to destroy something she never understood,let alone expierienced well so be it![ and you shut up Jimmy ; your names not up in lights on this one]
Marrianne , nothing personal on this....I quite like you....but I don't see the basis for your personal postion or your antagonism. At 17 I was immortal[like most males] and I certainly wasn't searching consciously for anything other than a good time. I think that your blaming the wrong person for your unsatisfactory youthful expierience.Those were crazy times all round. Thats why I avoided heavy involvement early on. Maharaji said in Australia that he asked the mahatma's to bring the seed of knowledge to the west.'The trouble was ' he said 'They brought the whole bloody garden with them!' Think about it; what other life situations from your teens would you say are still intact and worth running with on exactly the same basis.Thats my 10 cents worth and goodnight.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 05:40:21 (EDT)
From: barabarney
Email: None
To: Barabara
Subject: Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji
Message:
Barbara (that is your name?)

I'm really trying to restrain myself about your horrific post telling us that we are living in the past and are completely out of touch with the World of Knowledge™.

No, Barabara, I and many other ex-premies served long term sentences in Cult of Maharaji, the Kinder and Gentle-er Jim Jones. So, please don't lay that shit that we don't know what is going on!

Finally, haven't we had this conversation about Jim Jones and Maharaji before?

And the way YOU speak of Jim Jones' followers like you are some kind of expert with years and years of personal knowledge of those, yes, THOSE people. SHEESH!

Of course, Maharaji's devotees are of a different caliber altogther. By the way, what caliber gun did that premie in Florida use to shoot those sisters after having a darshan dream with Maharaji? Oh, no, I'm slipping into the Time Warp and talking about the past. Forget the past - it never happened. There is only the here and now. How perfectly convenient. Perhaps we can sell that PR concept to the Aum Shinri Kyo cult of Japan:

But Aum Shinri Kyo leaders disappointed many Japanese by refusing to acknowledge involvement in the sarin attack that killed 12 people and sickened thousands in March 1995.

We cannot say whether we have anything to do with the attack or not,'' Aum spokesman Hiroshi Araki said.

The cult's guru, Shoko Asahara, is on trial on charges of masterminding the attack.

The cult's leaders said that the group will temporarily stop using the name Aum, as of Oct. 1, because it had created too much friction with the public and had hurt the group's image. Aum Shinri Kyo means Supreme Truth cult.

We have been advised by many that a change in name would enhance our image,'' Araki said at a news conference at Tokyo headquarters. The leaders said they had not yet decided on a new name.

The cult will also suspend all public activities, downsize its headquarters in Tokyo and close all its branches nationwide, said the leaders, appearing before reporters in the cult's trademark pajama-like outfits. The 2,100-member cult's basic beliefs remain unchanged and believers will continue to practice the religion, Araki said.

It has become increasingly difficult for us to practice our belief in the face of increased national hostility,'' said acting chief representative Tatsuko Muraoka.

Gosh, Barbara, don't you see some parallels between THEM and Maharaji's cult. Of course, Maharaji has never killed anyone, but you must see the similarities in PR (spin control.)

And furthermore...

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:23:36 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Barbara & Catweasel
Subject: Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji
Message:
just about the same amount of time M has been in the west. The reason that I can make this analogy is that the PT members WERE JUST LIKE PREMIES! They joined PT for the same reasons that people became premies. And unlike the DLM/EV cult, Peoples Temple actually did things for people in their communities, for years, on a consistent basis. Things like provide free health care to the young and elderly; provide free food to the hungry; provide housing; and they created a truly multi-cultural community. I know these people and have spent hundreds of hours with them, so I speak from experience with both premies and PT members, unlike you, Barbara. You'd be amazed at how similar premies and PT members are. You have to deny this because it is unsettling. You should feel uncomfortable.

The only difference I see between Jones and Maharaji is that Jones wasn't into amassing tons of money for himself like M was and is, and M hasn't taken up residence in some jungle enclave, yet.... But the devotional aspects are all still there. You ought to listen to the last hour tape where people are committing suicide in the jungle, Barbara. One person tried to talk everyone out of it, but was shouted down by the rest of the group. I can imagine the same thing with premies, given the right situation. Never leave room for doubt in your mind, right, Barbara?

And Cat, no I was not 17 when I left the cult. I was 20. I was in for a very, very devoted 4 years. Read my Journey, Cat. When I posted it earlier this year, before I read the Forum much, I still thought of M as having something to contribute and that he was rather benign. It is the education I have received here that has soured me on him and his trip entirely.

Since the premies get so bent out of shape whenever I make the Jones/Maharaji analysis, I will continue to make it early and often.

And Barney, great pix!

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 10:16:48 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Jim Jones & Maharaji
Message:
Thats what I mean Marianne ;You know nothing whatsoever about M or the practical expierience of knowledge post your 20th year. And everything you know about him now you learn't here? You know zip darling.I've worked on some wellknown public issues....Doesn't correalate that I'm an expert on similar or should I say seemingly similar issues.
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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:06:25 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Wait til Maharaji finds out!
Message:
I should just leave this alone, but it's just too good to pass up.

At MoonInTheMan MP3 premie and rave and dance music website they've got a song called Enjoy this existence which is one of those long dreamy things. However, the hot part is with the voice over of old Maharaji satsang.

If you have a sound card and a high speed connection or a lot of patience check out Roger's House of Maharaji Drek Premie Music.

Also at the EverSound site they have a couple RealVideo with music and video with all those nice shots of mountains, streams, beaches and the usual stuff in case you are missing premie video nights. The Home RealVideo has some gratuitous shots of Amaroo. The Moving On RV I believe is used in actual EV videos and has a lot of shots from the air (might that be Maharaji flying around?)

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 18:09:11 (EDT)
From: CdM
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Wait til Maharaji finds out!
Message:
Roger,

do you recall a B Side of a Eurythics single that had snatches of M's satsang mixed into the beat. I think it was called 'you take some beans and rice'. Were Dave Stewart or Annie Lennox ever 'sympathetic' to M?

Charlie

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 10:49:04 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: auction@jethro666@screaming.net
To: CdM
Subject: Re: Wait til Maharaji finds out!
Message:
I don't know if they were sympathetic to m, but I do have a copy of the 45(released 1983)the song was called 'You take some lentils and you take some rice...'. It was the B-side of 'Who's that girl'.

I think the words of M were taken out in the second printing of the record.

If anyone wants the record I'll auction it.

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 12:50:18 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: CdM
Subject: Re: Wait til Maharaji finds out!
Message:
I don't think they were ever involved with M, but they have a new album out that is pretty good.
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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 23:32:37 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Wait til Maharaji finds out!
Message:
I was once told that she included a picture of m on a shelf in her video, and was told in no uncertain terms by dlm to remove it, which was done.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 08:56:16 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: dv
Subject: Is Annie Lennox a premie? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:17:44 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Is Annie Lennox a premie? (nt)
Message:
Sorry for the bounce. According to the rumor mill she is/was, but who knows? If she is, she probably suppresses the fact a la Michael Bolton.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 11:16:01 (EDT)
From: dv
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Is Annie Lennox a premie? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 11:34:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Give it up, Cecilia
Message:
This girl's devotional 'poetry' is really making me rethink my support of free speeech on the internet:

Naturally

Like bees to the hive
like birds to the winds
like fish to the river
like water is to the thirsty.

Thus we come, happy
to listen to you once again,
because freedom
is in your sweet words.

None of her 'likes' match up. What if she had to take her SAT's and wanted to get into college? What if she had to take her LSAT for law school? Maharaji has apparently ruined her reading comp and eliminated all hope for this woman's higher education.

She's a victim but all the same, she must be stopped. Can we report her to some English paper too? Think that'll do it?

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 12:51:45 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: isn't this a version of 'Golden Way'
Message:
We come to you oh lord like the _____ rush to the ___

We rush to you oh lord like the rivers rush to the sea
And though we try everyday, to walk your Golden way it is only by your grace by your mercy that we appraoch you.

Hmmmmm

We come to you oh Lard, but if we don't have the bucks we don't get near
If we have a trust fund Lord, from a front row seat you can at us leer

And though we try every day, to pay and pay and pay
It is only with bucks, only with lots of bucks, that we appraoch you?

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 09:51:55 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Words of 'Golden Way'
Message:
You call to us Maharaji
Like the flower calls to the bee
And we rush to you Maharji
Like the rivers rush to the sea...

(Copied off the tape insert)

You're right, this lady either consciously or subconsciously knocked off the song lyrics.

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 04:37:27 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: like lemmings to the sea! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 13:02:19 (EDT)
From: try this
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: This one is better
Message:
Golden Way

We who are poor oh LOrd, through binoculars we peer
We who give lots of dough, oh lord we sit so near

And so we try every day, to follow your Golden Way,
it is only with cash, hard cold cash, that we we approach you.

We rush to you oh lord, like the lemming rush to the sea
We give to you oh lord, so in a jet you cross the sea

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 12:43:25 (EDT)
From: The Editor
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Give it up, Cecilia
Message:
Note from the editor: (Celia, baby, I know you mean well, but we just had to do something, ANYTHING! Please forgive me, dear, but the final copy of your, er, poem, is as follows.)

Like bees [that dig jive]
like birds [without fins]
like fish to the river
like water is to the [lonely].

Thus we come, [snappy]
to [hearken] to you once again,
because [baby]
you is a [ sweet dream].

I know it sucks, but what the fuh. Anything is an improvement. Sorry.

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 09:16:58 (EDT)
From: owen stephens
Email: jaxboy10@hotmail.com
To: All
Subject: jai sat chit ananda!
Message:
greetings - maybe it's just part of a spiritual life- being an ex-premie(!?) i am looking for that album recorded in the 70s with teh London Philharmonic which contains that song beginning with:'waiting the word of the master, watching a hidden light...' and ends with 'we're all love, lvoe, love by his grace...'
can anyone point me in the right direction? simply nostalgic. thanks. hope no one gave up on spirituality just cause of old wierdo guru snatch a buck - as my friends in boston used to call him. :) be well and happy - and THANKS! owen
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 05:51:32 (EDT)
From: Happy
Email: None
To: owen stephens
Subject: Re: jai sat chit ananda!
Message:
'Waiting for the word of the master' was a One Foundation song. It easn't Blue Aquarius.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 10:35:56 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Happy
Subject: At the feet
Message:
Just for the record....according to the label on the record the song was based ona poem by J. Krishnamurti and....wait for it..the record was produced by the Grace of Guru Maharaj Ji.
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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 12:59:25 (EDT)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@hotmail.com
To: owen stephens
Subject: Re: jai sat chit ananda!
Message:
I have the Blue Aquarius album and the Anand Band album. I also have the Apostle's album and both albums by Jiva. I was un-packing my phonograph records just the other night and moved all that premie crap out of the collection. I no longer want them and will sell to an interested party. Contact me at mgdbach@hotmail.com if interested.
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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 14:44:37 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: We need some samples online
Message:
Hey Mickey!

It must be nice to get away and good to hear from you. Hope all is going well.

Don't have much to say until the coffee kicks in, but it would be really cool to get some samples of these albums online at the House of Maharaji Drek. So, whoever buys these (Jim?) can I get tapes or can you put them into WAV files or something?

Are these works still under copyright? Should I be concerned?

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 13:15:17 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: JEAN-MICHEL!
Message:
Hi Mickey! How are you doing? Are you all settled in? I'm glad that you and your family had a safe trip. I see that you're getting rid of your albums. Jean-Michel might want them for his DLM/EV history collection. I'd be happy to pay you for them and donate them to the archives. Let's see if he's interested. Please keep up your posts and tell us what you're up to down in Cental America.

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 13:31:08 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: YES?
Message:
I've already a song-book lent by some ex....
I'll do some scanning asap!
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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 16:15:45 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: owen stephens
Subject: Re: jai sat chit ananda!
Message:
I doubt very much it was the London Philharmonic on the Blue Aquarius album. But Waiting the Word of the Master was on that album, also in the film, 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji.'

A while back, someone on the forum said they had the record. I think Jim has a copy. Don't you Jim? Maybe he could record it for you.

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 21:36:24 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: No, it wasn't me
Message:
I've got the Anand Band's Lord of the Universe (still a good record, believe it or not). I bought it on eBay (they sent me the original Millenium program as well). No, someone else said they had Blue Aquarius. Can't recall who. Gail maybe?
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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 15:34:44 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: owen stephens
Subject: It is the Blue Aquarius album
Message:
Sorry I don't own it, nor know anybody who does. Nor can I tell you where to find it. I seem to remember it was the most dreadful record ever made, but I remember it well... Arti done as an instrumental, marching band style... Bhole ji looking smarmy in that suit, conductor's baton in hand... Or that song that started:

'We were in the Age of Water, now's the Age of Air / People don't expect the Lord to come with robes and flowing hair / He will come when and how he pleases, don't expect a thing / We will know him by his word - now hear the children sing:

Guru is the father of all
The creator of Love
The Lord of the Universe
Guru is the Lord of them all
He will come when you call
If you open your heart.'

Then there were premies rocking out on 'Foxfire' ... and the song you remember:

'Waiting the word of the Master
Watching the hidden light
I'm listening to catch his orders
In the very midst of the fight
I'm listening to catch his orders
In the very midst of the fight

Listening to catch his signal
Above the heat of the throng
I'm hearing his faintest whisper
Above Earth's loudest song.
I'm hearing his faintest whisper
Above Earth's loudest song.

At the feet of the Master
Well you can really let it go, let it flow...
'coz we're all love,
we're all love
we're all love
we're all love
'coz we're all love,
we're all love
we're all love
we're all love
'coz we're all love, love, love
love, love, love
'coz we're all love...'

(Repeat in entirety and search for a bucket)

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 09:46:56 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: One Foundation
Message:
Hello everyone. I swear I had that song 'Waiting the Word of the Master', but couldn't find it. Somehow I was thinking they may have redone it recently, but I was thinking of 'Golden Way' (..though we'll try everyday to walk your golden way, only by your grace, by your mercy, can we approach you...) on the Drifting CD 1997. Don't know who sang it originally, redo Kim O'Leary. I also found two One Foundation Tapes, 'You Are My Everything' and
'Power of Love'. Anyone have any ideas what years these were from? Mid 70's? 'You Are My Everything has Guru Charanand singing 'Downpour' in a thick Indian accent, it's hillarious! They redid that song recently, too, and chilled out some of the lyrics.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 01:22:26 (EDT)
From: George Burns
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Good night Gracey:::)) nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 12:40:38 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Golden Way: Daya
Message:
I was amazed watching the video of Long Beach 1997 when Daya sang 'Golden Way' to M with what looked like a middle-aged One Foundation backing her up. It was extremely weird.

That song is about as devotional as you can get, and speaks of Maharaji in terms that could only be used to describe someone you believe is god. So much for the facade that he isn't saying that anymore. Those songs from the 70s undermine that quite a lot.

'Only by your grace, by your mercy may we approach you' is a line from that song and is about as egotistical (from his perspective) as you can get. The fact that it was his daughter singing it to him, and the fact that she is very voluptuous and outwardly sexual, just made it all the more bizarre -- almost incestuous. It turned my stomach to tell you the truth.

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 16:39:26 (EDT)
From: Tami Rainbow
Email: blondandstacked.com
To: JW
Subject: Daya is my hero!!
Message:
SO what is rong with being voluptshous? Jus becuz a womman has big brests does not meen she is having insest! And anyway, I hurd that you were trying to impressionate me, JW!!! Anyway Maharaji is still my Lord and I am not ashamed to say it!!! I have sung to Maharaji befour in a very tite sweater and beleeve me, everyone luved it!!Noone lissens to the words, becuz it is an exprerienence, you think you are all so smart analysing these song leerics to death! I feele sorry for you all!!!
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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 16:53:26 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: Tami Rainbow
Subject: Re: Daya is my hero!!
Message:
You tell them, Tami. What a bunch of whiny, confused monmots, living in rat holes these exes are! That is because they have lost that experience of that gift which is that love which we are gifted to have by the grace of Maharaji, if we just make that effort to be that devotee and have that surrender. They do not have that understanding that you must have that faith and that it is not about thinking and making sense, it is about having that experience and because I have that experience, I do not care about anything else. This is the proper way to be a human being.

After all, without Maharaji's grace, human beings are nothing more than cesspool scum.

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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 14:57:46 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: 25th anniversary in Miami pulled out all the old hits
Message:
Yes, I was there whenever that was. They pulled out all the old hits. Yes, it undermines all the effort they make to distance them/him from the old days of being Lord of the Universe. Yet, that's what most of the premies really want. Got to pay those bills while they try to lure new ones into the godless cult.
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Date: Tues, Oct 05, 1999 at 14:46:10 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Golden Way: Daya
Message:
Yes, JW, it is weird to see Daya sing to her daddy with such devotion. I've seen her at a couple programs singing to him and even as a devout premie it felt a little weird.
She has a couple songs on 'Drifting' CD that are also very 'lovey' and would be sweet (if you're into that), but not sung by her. I do really like her voice, though. The other daughter is much cuter than Daya IMHO. I wonder where he hides his boys, never seen them.
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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 15:34:04 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: owen stephens
Subject: Re: jai sat chit ananda!
Message:
Hi Owen.

Greetings. I didn't give up on spirituality (see my Journey for more thrilling details). I keep wanting to say sentences with the words baby and bathwater in them on this forum. I have quite a different approach to it now, though.

Don’t have that album, sorry.

Did you read the comment someone posted in response to the question, “Has anyone actually realized Knowledge?” The reply was, “THE EX-PREMIES.”

Love Katie

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