Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 6
From: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 To: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 Page: 5 Of: 5


Jim -:- Too close to be a joke -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:42:17 (EDT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Too close to be a joke -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:38:56 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Not that part, silly -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 17:08:48 (EDT)

Jim -:- Roses are red, violets are blue ... -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:15:32 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Jim, Check This Out -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 00:15:40 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Hey, that's funny too -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:01:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Brilliant Quote, No? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:45:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ John K. -:- Re: Brilliant Quote, No? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 13:52:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Brilliant Quote, No? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:19:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Come on, Joe, don't play with me -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:00:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Come on, Joe, don't play with me -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:26:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Too Funny!!! -:- Re: Come on, Joe, don't play with me -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:17:04 (EDT)
__ Zac -:- Re: Roses are red, violets are blue ... -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:55:28 (EDT)
__ __ CdM -:- Realized premies do exist -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 06:03:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ Nigel -:- Hey, you're right, Charles... -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:38:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Miss Led -:- 'All the Old Stories?' -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:29:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: 'All the Old Stories?' -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 15:08:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: 'All the Old Stories?' -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 16:36:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Susan -:- :) talk about breaking the jar that held us(nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:51:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Susan -:- Best OF Forum!!!!!!!!!!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:02:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: Best OF Forum!!!!!!!!!!!! (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:18:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Boycott!!!!! -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:19:51 (EDT)
__ __ barney -:- Maybe nobody knows about the phone call??? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 05:54:00 (EDT)
__ Grace -:- Re: Roses are red, violets are blue ... -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:24:30 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Re: Roses are red, violets are blue ... -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:28:35 (EDT)
__ __ __ Grace -:- Re: Roses are red, violets are blue ... -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:32:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Re: Roses are whatever color we call them -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:53:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Taking the pith... -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 03:01:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Grace -:- Re: Love & Devotion -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:28:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ nigel -:- Hmm, maybe a BIT silly... -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 05:36:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Grace -:- Re: Hmm, maybe a BIT silly... -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:27:18 (EDT)

Deputy Frog -:- Yes, people are nuts! -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:01:18 (EDT)
__ *>*....b -:- Re: Yes, people are nuts! -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 03:03:06 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Thanks again, Bill -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:11:39 (EDT)
__ __ *>*...b -:- Re: Yes, people are nuts! -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 03:22:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ *>*...b -:- Re: Yes, people are nuts! -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:20:45 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- These reports confuse me a bit -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:17:56 (EDT)
__ Jerry -:- So? -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:27:11 (EDT)
__ __ Deputy Frog -:- Re: So? -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:01:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Great, thanks a lot Jim! -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:36:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim! -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:42:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim! -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 01:10:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim! -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 00:41:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ *>*...b -:- Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim! -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 00:38:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim! -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 23:16:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ bb -:- Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim! -:- Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 09:22:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim! -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:57:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim! -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:16:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, don't be so persnickety -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 22:52:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Hey, don't be so persnickety -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 00:21:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Hey, don't be so persnickety -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:07:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mickey Moss -:- Re: Hey, don't be so persnickety -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 23:33:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: people are nuts -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:01:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ *>*...b -:- Hi way -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:25:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- religion -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:30:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: religion -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:52:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: religion -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:35:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- LOL LOL LOL -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:38:29 (EDT)

Susan -:- I remember a charitable act! -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 10:57:49 (EDT)
__ Liz -:- Re: I remember a charitable act! -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 15:55:38 (EDT)
__ JW -:- The Short-Lived Humanitarian Period -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 15:19:34 (EDT)
__ __ Zac -:- Re: The Short-Lived Humanitarian Period -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:38:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Re: The Short-Lived Humanitarian Period -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:07:35 (EDT)
__ __ Liz -:- The hungry will always be with you -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 16:04:01 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- 'Ah but I was so much older then...' -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 14:08:49 (EDT)
__ __ Syd -:- Re: 'Ah but I was so much older then...' -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 17:54:33 (EDT)
__ bb -:- idiot party -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 11:57:19 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Goddamned you, Bill! -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:55:38 (EDT)
__ __ Jesse Ventura -:- Sounds Like the Reform Party -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 17:29:58 (EDT)
__ __ Roger eDrek -:- Politically Incorrect, but ***Best of Forum*** -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 17:16:15 (EDT)
__ __ gmom -:- BB -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:01:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Susan Gmom -:- Re: BB -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:05:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ *>*...b -:- Re: BB -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:23:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Susan Gmom -:- Re: BB -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:11:51 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ *>*...c -:- Re: BB -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:25:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- Jan 1975 -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:35:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ *>*...d -:- maserati-JW? -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 02:18:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Susan -:- thanks *>*...d -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 12:14:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Jan 1975 -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:48:32 (EDT)

Deena -:- Hello! -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 00:43:07 (EDT)
__ Susan Gmom -:- Re: Hello! -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 00:49:20 (EDT)

JW -:- The Christmas Satsang -:- Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:56:36 (EDT)
__ URL -:- Thanks for the wonderful reminder JW -- you're a lifesaver -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 19:12:28 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Is that a gun in your pocket... -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 17:39:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: Is that a gun in your pocket... -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 20:19:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Hey, hold on there! -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 20:58:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Hey, hold on there! -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:43:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Okay, I take it back. You ARE stupid -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 22:46:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Right, why don't you ask your rational man friend -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 11:31:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- What does GROW mean? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:06:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Fuck off Jean-Michel -- you're too small a man to care about (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:14:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- How big a man are you, Mr Anonymous? -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:47:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: How big a man are you, Mr Anonymous? -:- Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 06:30:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Taller than you! -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:07:28 (EDT)
__ __ Know It All -:- Cat got your tongue lately, URL? -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 19:54:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- No, just taking a breather -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:24:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: No, just taking a breather -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 01:09:02 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: No, just taking a breather -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 20:27:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- You've been dreaming -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:57:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're too funny, Url -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:38:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: You're too funny, Url -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:09:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- No, YOU'RE dumb, I'm clever, witty and, most of all, out of your mind-numbing -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:24:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Oh yeah, well take this..... -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 20:32:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- You've got it all backwards -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:00:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: You've got it all backwards -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:54:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Stop! You're too confused. Go back. -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 23:20:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back. -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 11:49:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- You have made a valid point here, URL -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:02:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: You have made a valid point here, URL -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:27:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back. -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 15:17:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Give up Jerry... -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:17:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- LOL -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:23:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back. -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:41:34 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back. -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:18:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back. -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:33:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back. -:- Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 22:05:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back. -:- Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 17:01:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- My master's better than your master -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 09:24:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Nigel -:- Re: My master's better than your master -:- Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 15:14:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Know It All -:- Nothing like the denial -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:15:21 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Oh THAT Christmas Satsang -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 10:43:42 (EDT)
__ __ Liz -:- Blair Witch Project (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 16:30:03 (EDT)
__ __ Grace -:- Blair Witch Project (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 10:55:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Liz -:- Re:It'sAll Hype -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 16:32:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Liz -:- Re: Re:It'sAll Hype -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 16:34:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Blair Witch Project (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:41:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Blair Witch Project (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:54:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: Blair Witch Project (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 13:22:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Blair Witch Project (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 13:00:02 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- ... now online -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 04:18:45 (EDT)
__ bb -:- Re: The Christmas Satsang -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 02:11:14 (EDT)
__ Monmot -:- Re: The Christmas Satsang -:- Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 00:11:21 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:42:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Too close to be a joke
Message:
September 29, 1999
Japan Doomsday Cult To Tone Down

Filed at 3:01 p.m. EDT

By The Associated Press
TOKYO (AP) -- The Japanese doomsday cult whose leaders have been charged with murder in a subway gas attack promised Wednesday to tone down its activities and stop recruiting members.

But Aum Shinri Kyo leaders disappointed many Japanese by refusing to acknowledge involvement in the sarin attack that killed 12 people and sickened thousands in March 1995.

We cannot say whether we have anything to do with the attack or not,'' Aum spokesman Hiroshi Araki said.

The cult's guru, Shoko Asahara, is on trial on charges of masterminding the attack.

The cult's leaders said that the group will temporarily stop using the name Aum, as of Oct. 1, because it had created too much friction with the public and had hurt the group's image. Aum Shinri Kyo means Supreme Truth cult.

We have been advised by many that a change in name would enhance our image,'' Araki said at a news conference at Tokyo headquarters. The leaders said they had not yet decided on a new name.

The cult will also suspend all public activities, downsize its headquarters in Tokyo and close all its branches nationwide, said the leaders, appearing before reporters in the cult's trademark pajama-like outfits. The 2,100-member cult's basic beliefs remain unchanged and believers will continue to practice the religion, Araki said.

It has become increasingly difficult for us to practice our belief in the face of increased national hostility,'' said acting chief representative Tatsuko Muraoka.

Protests against Aum have been popping up throughout Japan. Residents have driven members out of their neighborhoods and held rallies and marches.

Earlier Wednesday, two senior Aum officials were arrested on charges of holding a female member against her will. Masahiro Guntani, 30, and Ryuji Shimotori, 37, are suspected of keeping the 29-year-old woman at an Aum facility from late March through early April last year, as part of religious training.

She had her hands and feet bound with adhesive tape and sometimes had her head pushed into a water tank until she lost consciousness, police said. The woman, whose name was not released, managed to flee last April.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:38:56 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Too close to be a joke
Message:
--

Jim,

Holy shit, you must have lived in one hell of an ashram.

DD

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 17:08:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Not that part, silly
Message:
The amamzing parallel, Dog, is in the fact that both cults think they can live down their mammothly inglorious pasts by changing a little window-dressing. The Toyko cult follows a mad, mass killer who thinks he's divine. The Maharaji cult follows a guy who used to shout and implore for the world to turn its eyes on him, the Lord of the Universe who promised to bring peace to the world. Both cults are fooling themselves like carzy if they think they can simply avoind talking about these white elephants in hopes of making them disappear.

Get it?

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:15:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Roses are red, violets are blue ...
Message:
[Here's some more brainwashed garbage from ELK. Note the ugly self-deprecation in the final stanza. Yeah, 'gratitude' my ass.]

M. Scott Jones
Portland, USA

Lamp of Knowledge

I reach out for you, and i grope like a blind man.
i reach in for you, and i find your lamp of Knowledge.

I turn up the wick and light the flame of love for you,
the flame that jumps so bright against the world's stone walls.

I lower my head to gaze at the pith of the little glow
and it jumps right into my cave.

In my lighted conscious, i see all of what i am
so clearly - how polluted i've been, how struggling
how little i am, how simple
how complete i am, how grateful.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 00:15:40 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, Check This Out
Message:
Over in the Wit & Wisdom section of ELK, the entry for September 29, 1999, they let this total imbecile post something from T.S. Eliot that makes no sense... How did they ever let someone like that post? Just goes to show you, you can say any nonsense and it sounds like Maharaji.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:01:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hey, that's funny too
Message:
Joe, that's hilarious. Mind if I quote?:

Joe Whalen
San Francisco, USA

T.S. Elliott: The end is where we start from

'What we call the beginning is often the end
And to make an end is to make a beginning.
The end is where we start from.'

- T.S. Elliott

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:45:38 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Brilliant Quote, No?
Message:
But what can it mean? It is obviously so profound.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 13:52:53 (EDT)
From: John K.
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Brilliant Quote, No?
Message:
C'mon you guys! Of course you know what this means. It means like the beginning is the same thing as the end. Everything is the same thing as everything else, right? We are one!

So, it's like if you're holding a book in your hand, you're holding THE WHOLE BOOK in your hand, the beginning, the end, everything, all at once. Isn't that amazing!? I mean, that's like the most amazing thing that within inside of us we have EVERYTHING all the time, the beginning, the end, everything.

Or like a computer, I mean the ON button on the computer is also the OFF button, right? I mean, that is so amazing. And where you START is also where you SHUT DOWN, right? I mean it's all the same thing, and if you're so blind as to not see this, I mean really SEE it , then like the bible says, those who have eyes to see, right? I mean, doesn't that say it all really?

Anyway, i'm glad I came back to this page to read that JW is still sharing his humorous vision of the world with EVERYONE, ALL AT ONCE, ALL THE TIME!!!! And that I'm part of this world in this life, right now. WOW! I'm just overwhelmed by my totally inflated sense of self.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:19:13 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: John K.
Subject: Re: Brilliant Quote, No?
Message:
Hi John, so nice to hear from you. Frankly, I thought I was more of a notorious ex than I am. I'm kind of insulted that ELK posted my wit and wisdom entry. But it was brilliant, wasn't it? I mean the beginning, and the end are the same -- it's all one. In the beginning was the word, but it's there at the end too.

It's like if you are driving a car -- if the engine won't start there is nothing you can do with it. I know, if you have a clutch, you might be able to push the car a little bit and get it going, and usually that's only if you are going down hill. But if the car won't go, you are stuck at the beginning, but the car won't go, so you are at the end too, it's all one and it's so beautiful to be in that place, with that love and that experience. If you devote yourself to the master, you get that experience of grace at the end and the beginning.

Hope you are doing well, John. I was away from THE FORUM for quite a while and returned recently to be with my one true family, the family that knows the truth and the purpose of this existence. It's just so beautiful.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:00:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Come on, Joe, don't play with me
Message:
Joe,

The meaning's obvious. What do you take me for? I'm not going to play your game. It means what it means. It speaks for itself. If you don't know, I'm not going to tell you. Apparently, you didn't get it then and you don't now. Maybe you'll NEVER get it. Maybe you're one of those people who only pretended to get it. Get it?

Alternatively, can you prove Elliot ever said it in the first place? And, even if he did, how old was he at the time? Younger than 45? A guy can say all sorts of stuff before he's 45, you know. Or do you know?

Naw, you guys don't know nothing. Just a lot of gossip. You can't prove anything, that's for sure. And even if you could, I odn't have to admit it, do I? It's still a free world out there, isn't it, you ex-premie fascist?

You guys are so controlling! Like you want to control everyone. That's how controlling you are. If you were any more controlling you .. well, you couldn't be because you already want to control everyone. There's no one left, asshole!

So what do you do? You go after God, that's what you do. It's not enough to control all the people in the world, you want to control all the Perfect Masters too!

Well, I've got news for you. Naw, maybe I don't. You wouldn't hear me anyway. What's the point. Cat's right. Thee's not point trying to talk with you jerks. Control freaks. Get lost. I'm tired of you ex assholes. I've wasted enough time here -- and yes, it has been a big waste of time trying to talk with you wankers. From now on I'm just going to lurk.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:26:30 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Come on, Joe, don't play with me
Message:
No, Jim, I swear it is a true T.S. Elliot quotation. He really wrote it. I mean, he must have had the experience of the true knowledge to write something like that. After all, Guru Maharaj Ji is always here and so he must have come in contact with some messiah or another to have that same experience that Maharaji gives all the premies by his grace.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:17:04 (EDT)
From: Too Funny!!!
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Come on, Joe, don't play with me
Message:
Love,

Liz

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:55:28 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Roses are red, violets are blue ...
Message:
Hi Jim- You have nuts calling Mahrji. He was in Australia last weekend I hear. Maybe you shouldn't have left the message and just waited for the Big guy to answer one day. Oh well...When are we going to see a premie write that they have realized knowledge? When will one of these amatuer poets just say straight out that they are in perfect peace and they don't need to write these stupid self serving poems that make others sick. Dont they see that they are only spitting out the drivel that Mahrji is feeding them? Maharji must read these things and laugh out loud. What a bunch of sick puppies he attracted. I just wish Maharji could produce 5 people who've realized knowledge in all these years. No fare counting perverts and other deviants.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 06:03:10 (EDT)
From: CdM
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Realized premies do exist
Message:
Zac,

there are quite a few premies who have realized knowledge.

They're called ex-premies.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:38:49 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: CdM
Subject: Hey, you're right, Charles...
Message:
It all adds up:

According to all the old stories, a realised soul is a devotee who no longer needs to follow the teachings of the guru.

A realised soul no longer needs to practice formal meditation (We don't; Prem doesn't)

A realised soul is already where they need to be, so may enjoy the pleasures of the world without fear of damnation (ditto).

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:29:01 (EDT)
From: Miss Led
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: 'All the Old Stories?'
Message:
Dear Nige,

That's exactly why I feel m has done me SOME good. If it was only when he said WALK! in that terse voice of his....

Far be it from me to sound holier than thou but I do have those kinds of feelings that I have 'transcended' something. My bliss isn't dependent on the Guru. I can hear the premies scoffing!!!

What I really meant to say was, 'Where did you hear all these old stories re. this?

Miss Led

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 15:08:45 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Miss Led
Subject: Re: 'All the Old Stories?'
Message:
Hi Missy L.,

I was just remembering these old books of ancient / new age wisdom I used to devour like a pig before I ever heard satsang. Yogananda and stuff. Somebody-or-other's Search in Ancient India... Loads of references to people becoming 'realised souls' - except they had to put in loads of hard work along the way and live the life of a renunciate. Samadhi came later. That's why Prem's 'instant nirvana' message looked such a good deal by comparison.

I can't think of ANY benefits I gained from involvement with M (that I couldn't have found elsewhere at less personal cost.)

Nige

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 16:36:19 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: 'All the Old Stories?'
Message:
I can't think of ANY benefits I gained from involvement with M (that I couldn't have found elsewhere at less personal cost.)

Neither can I. If anybody can tell me what stunted growth is good for, maybe I'll agree with them that there was some benefit in being a premie. Or maybe chasing rainbows has an up side I'm unaware of.

Maybe that mean fellow, URL, can tell me how I benefitted, without cursing me out too much like he usually does. What say you, URL? You wanna fill me in on all the benefits of being a premie? I'm just dying to know and you seem to be the man who can tell me.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:51:08 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: :) talk about breaking the jar that held us(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:02:57 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: CdM
Subject: Best OF Forum!!!!!!!!!!!! (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 14:18:21 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: Best OF Forum!!!!!!!!!!!! (nt)
Message:
I Agree!!!
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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 17:19:51 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Boycott!!!!!
Message:
I've been over at the Best of the Forum and CdM has 10,005 entries. I am getting very jealous. Can CdM quit saying such funny things (such as 'the realized premie is the ex-premie' -- Nobel prize for that, Charlie!)????? It might as well be the Best of CdM! Sob, sob, sob. Have I contributed nothing meaningful here?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 05:54:00 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Maybe nobody knows about the phone call???
Message:
The thought just occurred to me that if the voice mail belonged to Maharaji that he alone would be the one to hear it.

This assumes that no one associated with him reads the Forum.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:24:30 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Roses are red, violets are blue ...
Message:
Why do you just pick on M. Scott Jones? You also printed another of his about rowing across the ocean. BTW, I know the guy! He is very sincere and a long-timer.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:28:35 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Roses are red, violets are blue ...
Message:
It's not intentional, Grace. And I'm not questioning his sincerity for a moment. He sounds like your typically 'sincere' brainwashed cult member.

I laugh at his poetry because it's filled with all the tortured cult-think I left behind years ago. There are other good examples but his are wonderful. And yes, I can see 'old timer' written all over his stuff. Can't you?

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:32:49 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Roses are red, violets are blue ...
Message:
Yes, he does sound like an old-timer.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:53:52 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Roses are whatever color we call them
Message:
Good point. Who has realized Knowledge? Twenty-five years of service, satsang and meditation should yield some results, n'est-ce pas?

If not, why not?

People aren't perfect. But if a spiritual system promises perfection, they should at least produce improvement. DLM/EV hasn't done shit.

I guess it must be the premies fault, cuz the Master (teacher) is Perfect (wonderful).

Bye.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 03:01:30 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Gregg
Subject: Taking the pith...
Message:
Only an old-timer would refer to meditation as an experience of love for the Master. When all is said and done, EV is still a devotional cult and nothing more. As has been suggested here before, if Prem stepped in front of a bus tomorrow, all these as-yet unrealised souls would be devastated.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:28:22 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Love & Devotion
Message:
Yes, premies would be devastated if M stepped in front of a bus, but I have heard him talk several times about the 'next Master'--saying that he/she would take over for the premie where he left off and insinuating that he is disposible (sp?), simply a person in a role and it's the role that's important, not him. (Not that he doesn't get off on all the adoration, though.) Maybe this is silly, but I always respected him for discussing another Master (after he's dead).
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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 05:36:02 (EDT)
From: nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow,demon.co.uk
To: Grace
Subject: Hmm, maybe a BIT silly...
Message:
Hi Grace,

But isn't there the old Sri Hans problem - the same as the one Hans ji's own guru left behind him a generation earlier? - and that is the succession disputes that put a spanner in the works of the best laid plans of mice and hamsters. And is also the reason that we still have two Lords of the Universe in the one family today.

Sri Hans slips on a bar of soap and breaks his skull. Internicene warfare breaks out in the Holy Family - only resolved by a bunch of mahatamas taking the kid Maharaji and putting him on the stage while the others are still arguing the toss. Later the kid hallucinates hearing his father's voice at Hans' funeral and the devotees accept this as confirmation of his authority.

Anyway, since M will no longer be around, who's to say he even cares who comes after him (though what is the betting that the empire will remain with the Rawat clan?) He might only drop these enigmatic hints to gain that respect you have admitted. Or perhaps he needs to reassure the faithful that the whole thing will not crumble if he steps in front of that bus - which helps to keep them loyal for the time being. It is not as if he has named any names, is it?

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:27:18 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Re: Hmm, maybe a BIT silly...
Message:
You know nigel, I now think you're right about Lordship staying with the Rawat clan. As a premie I wondered about the Master staying in the same family, but resolved it by believing that it was definately meant to be and this was a special condition--these are special times at the end of the millenium (sp?). Had GMJ died and a member of his family 'taken over the post', even as a devout premie this, in itself, would probably raise enough doubts in me to quit the trip. I believed (still question possibility) of the string of Masters and many were not even from the same continent. I wonder if other premies would become suspicious in the case of death of GMJ and promotion of a family member?
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:01:18 (EDT)
From: Deputy Frog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yes, people are nuts!
Message:
Jim,

People will do anything to satisfy that spiritual thirst even join Heaven's Gate. But here is some bad news for atheists.

An article entitled 'Spirituality: Why We Need It,' in the October 99 issue of Psychology Today states that:

'Worshippers who participate in church-sponsored activities are markedly less stressed over finances, health, and other daily concerns than non-spiritual types.'

'Elderly folks who attended religious services, prayed, or read scriptures regularly had lower blood pressure than non-practising types.'

'Devout patients recovering from surgery spent an average of 11 days in the hospital, compared with non-religious patients who spent 25 days.'

'Those who attend religious services regularly have a lower mortality rate.'

'Spiritually is linked with low depression and suicide rates, less alcohol and drug abuse, less criminal behaviour, fewer divorces and higher marital satisfaction.'

So what do you think of THEM apples, Mr. Rational Mind?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 03:03:06 (EDT)
From: *>*....b
Email: None
To: Deputy Frog
Subject: Re: Yes, people are nuts!
Message:
Hate to blow the smokescreen but born again christains
have MORE divorces than the rest of the american
population.
When Reagan was newly president, there were a wave of
born again evangelicals that rose to public prominence.

All america was open to hearing them at least once and
granted them openness and were willing to be influenced
ethically by them.
Well, ALL of them got into scandels!!!!
Ugly stupid scandels at that.
The whole lot of them were judgemental and didnt even like
each other!
The ones that didnt collapse under money sex or drug
scandels did nutty things like talk to a 900 foot tall
jesus! (oral roberts)
or my personal favorite, Pat Robertson, who I watched
on TV claiming that a woman was driving a yellow VW
on a road and she had a tumor and didnt know it yet and
then he claimed he just healed it!
(then he ran for president!)
There is one guy still on who looks like a rattlesnake
(sorry snakes), and I think his name is Tilsdon
and he asks- Imean demands money for god to be sent to
him-and do it now!

I heard this at a promise keeper event,
One preacher, hosting a conference, talked to a hotel
manager and had the guy interested, and on the last day
of the event, the hotel manager said to the guy,
YOUR people are the only ones at this hotel, we have never
had such a high percentage of rooms renting porn channels
EVER!!
If this is what your group is like, I am not interested.

I think there is a self aware part of conciousness that
aint in a body and all, but you cant make a lot of
conclusions about its nature by looking at the followers!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:11:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: *>*....b
Subject: Thanks again, Bill
Message:
Bill the tumor and hotel stories were worth waking up for. Thanks.

In the early eighties there was this ... evangelical lizard named Gene Scott who got pretty big. Probably still is for all I know, we just don't get that kind of trash up here. (We've got our own. This completely butch old lady who stomps for God like Jack Lemmon in drag after a four-day bender when he's exhausted all his jokes and has turned real mean).

But, anyway, my dad used to hang out at this backgammon club in Beverly Hills, Pips. Gene Scott used to hang at the bar picking up young chicks. Dad -- no prude -- thought he was a pig.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 03:22:55 (EDT)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: *>*....b
Subject: Re: Yes, people are nuts!
Message:
Well, maybe my favorite has a competitor,
oral roberts said god wsa going to kill him if he
didnt raise 28 million dollars by a certain date.
I heard him say that god said to him 'I didnt have you
build this hospital for nothing, I want to cure cancer!'

And the hospital he built was WAY to big for the region,
and there were already 2 hospitals, and healthcare has
changed (and god should have seen that coming),
and now hospitals are downsizing everywhere!

I heard christian radio just this week and RC Sproll,
was talking about other prechers that werent doing
the gospel right!
And the next show on was a woman precher talking about
how the devil was making inroads by infiltrateing
the church with confused non-cross oriented preachers.

The devil would be guilty of wasteing energy if that is so.
'The devil knows not for whom he works' according to jesus.
So, if you ask me, that means that the devil is gods
little troublemaking good god/bad god side.

It's a set up!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 10:20:45 (EDT)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: *>*...b
Subject: Re: Yes, people are nuts!
Message:
Isn't it funny?
This place is nuts!
From stem to stern, we are on a ship of fools.
Even in the best of compartments on the ship, loonyness
resides. The lord of the universe tells that closeing
our eyes to this whole deal gives us peace from it
but then we find our thoughts are there!
And even when you are walking the deck with your lady
and you just got naked and now you are strolling
in the sunrise with a drink in hand, the clock is ticking
and the murphy's law and your and others human nature
are waiting in the wings to snap you out of your ease.

We build the economy that can support billions of us
and we cant help but put in the y2k bug and fail to
address it in time.

Even those that run to god to get fixed can't get out of
thier own way no matter what they do.
No wonder people are gullible, and others are tyrants
of all stripes.

Thank the way it is that we at least have control
over our attitude!
We get to drive somewhat, but our attitude is the great
area of opportunity for living well.
In spite of all circumstance.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:17:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Frog
Subject: These reports confuse me a bit
Message:
I've heard these things before and they confuse me. Don't get me wrong. They don't for a second suggest that there really is a deity of any kind. I'm not saying that. But they do suggest that it's 'healthy' and 'natural' to be fooled by nature.

I've got to run now. Honestly. But I'd be happy to discuss this further. I'll tell you right now, tohugh, I don't know how to think of the issue. It's a puzzler. Maybe ev/psych will crack it some day but for now it's just a mystery.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:27:11 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Deputy Frog
Subject: So?
Message:
It doesn't prove there's a God. It just appears, from these statistics, that faith in one is beneficial to health. That's interesting.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:01:14 (EDT)
From: Deputy Frog
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: So?
Message:
Jerry,

Is Jim giving me the cold shoulder, or is he still too buzzed from the phone call?

DD

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:36:05 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Great, thanks a lot Jim!
Message:
My post 'Yes, people are nuts,' was a valiant attempt on my part to calm you down and change the direction of your life. And what do you do? You give me the brush. This is typical atheist shit, and I'm tired of it.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:42:41 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim!
Message:
Jim,

I just posted my last message and yours just appeared. Whoa! Cosmic or what! So you didn't give me the brush, I apologize.

DD

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 01:10:27 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: ickymickey@home.com
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim!
Message:
DD:

I believe your stats. Here is the problem. If this evidence is to be believed, then it apparently doesn't matter very much what the faith actually is. One would hope that the evidence would somehow point us in the right direction, but all it does is give us a raw dichotomy. The issue for religious people is not 'whether' but 'who' and 'how?' Since these questions apparently don't have an answer, and any port is as good as any other in a storm, then perhaps no one is even close to the truth?

Now *there's* a depressing thought. It is possible that no human has even *imagined* anything close to reality, yet. So, what we have is a kind of plethora of superstitions that include 'rationalism,' along with other non-contenders. It is probably true that very few of these people 'blessed' with faith, would live so long without the benefit of science and medicine. So, in a way, the depressed have blessed the jubilant. Ironic, perhaps, but not really all that encouraging. I mean, isn't it backwards?

-MM

(Ready and willing to become ignorant and irrational, if it will make me happy.)

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 00:41:58 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim!
Message:
Rats, I managed to somehow lose a post that should have
gone here.
Damn, I liked it.
Try again tomorrow.
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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 00:38:37 (EDT)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim!
Message:
Your last comment about 'willing to become ignorant and
irrational if it will make me happy' stuck with me as
I went about the town today.

It seemed like people wanted to just have satisfying
interpersonal relationships and pass the time in thier
own narrowly focused world.
And that seemed smart!
Glanceing to the side, they only wanted to need to know
or assume that there was a god handleing the big issues
and they didnt have to understand everything but just
keep on having thier own small concerns and interests
and that was enough.

That is just how it seemed to me after I read your post and
them went out driveing in the city.

Those that think there is no god but just a oneness and
you have to become 'realized' just burden the folks
that are not into makeing a big effort in god's direction.

The conforting message that 'you cant earn salvation, it is
grace that gives it to you' is made to order for those that
want to keep religion at an arms length and yet have
the god base covered.

Frankly, that seems like the bulk of people here.
Those that try to get 'close' to god seem to get wierd.
(I know!)
Whatever religion or 'port', it is best to not get a job
working in the port!
Best to use the religion as a place to handle deaths,
births, marriages, and as an outlet for intense sheep
urges. By sheep I mean follower.

Born agains drive themselves nuts by trying to read the
bible!
Thats why they go nuts and get screwy in my opinion.
We are here to live our own lives and the red flags
seem to go up when we get too into any of the books.

Why christians can't make due with the commandment jesus
said, which was, just 'love god your self and others' and
leave the rest of that book on the shelf is thier
mistake.

It is the excess, the consequence of that excess that
makes us think religion has small merit.
The key point is that there is a self aware power that
thinks and reccomends trying to love it all.
And that you are loved and noticed even if no one you
know cares about you.
Those two points are the real cornerstone of the
jesus/yeshua effect here.
All those involved distort that for the rest of us.

The eastern no self aware god trip is way too prone
to supporting tyranny.
And the DNA view that conciousness is just an emergent
quality of matter leaves the regular person that just
wants thier heart issues answered, cold.
What is the point in that?

The beauty of the nuttiness in the religion world is that
it rebuffs people away from thinking there is anything
to really gain by getting MORE into the bible, or koran,
or whatever. It helps to keep them from getting more
power over people. You could say that it is god's way
of keeping the tyranny tendency in religion in check.

Just guessing of course.

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 23:16:50 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: *>*...b
Subject: Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim!
Message:
Bill:

Thanks for your response.

Re: The key point is that there is a self aware power that
thinks and reccomends trying to love it all.
And that you are loved and noticed even if no one you
know cares about you.

I'm not sure I understand this. I mean, it's not the nuttiness that bothers me. Lord knows I'm nutty enough myself. It appears to me that there are no legitimate religious claims, since pretty much all of them can be refuted. And it's not God that recommends love, but the books and speakers who purport to speak for Him. Since none of these has any special legitimacy, we believe in something that doesn't speak for itself, but through some very flawed people. Now, this just seems strange to me... that things would be set up that way. My conclusion is that it's all hogwash... that no one really has any idea what's going on. On the other hand it just feels better, healthier, to love rather than hate. And I can well believe it's better for you too. So, again, it's this weird headless virtue. Thanks again for your response.

-MM

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Date: Mon, Oct 04, 1999 at 09:22:25 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim!
Message:
I have to agree MM, it seems strage to me too!
I dont think I have any dispute with the 'hogwash'
view either. Although, it does help keep the darker
tyranny mean stuff somewhat contained or lessened.
Although, saying that can certainly be disputed!
That stuff leaks through religion like it is it's home.
I was hopeing prem rawat was going to do away with
religions and just leave us all breathing in a better
world.
But now I think the fragmented western christianity
is broken up and nutty enough so that it provides that
religion thing for folks if they want it, yet by this
1999, it has moved out of total domination of peoples
thoughts and has discredited itself enough over the
years that NOW finally we have it about where we want it,
on the sidelines. The legacy of the christian thing has
enough good elements that it beats the moslem and eastern
religious effects on thier people I think.
So now I dont want to see it overthrown, it wouuld just
be more trouble and any replacement religion like
a -prem rawat saviour of mankind- would just be a pain
in the butt and stir up the murky religious waters
and get religion back in our face even more.

I dont think there is any getting rid of this stuff.
I like your 'wierd headless virtue' view.

I'm gone for a week so if you post I WILL be reading
it, but not responding for days.
There was a premie in denver named Mickey Ross,
pretty close to your name.
bb

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 23:57:18 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: *>*...b
Subject: Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim!
Message:
Good post *>*...b,

Give my regards to the coneheads.

DD

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:16:04 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: Great, thanks a lot Jim!
Message:
I can see this is a subject that doesn't deserve any genuine consideration. Bye.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 22:52:44 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Hey, don't be so persnickety
Message:
Mickey,

I had a little bit of time to post a bit this morning then took off for court. Ran around, then went up island to another court. Got back, started reading the page and see you've left in a huff. Come on, man. Don't be like that.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 00:21:33 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hey, don't be so persnickety
Message:
Jim:

No problem. I understand the time constraints, and know you don't intend to be rude. You guys are just into something different. I see people aging, and while some are still preoccupied with career others have done with that, or aren't being energized much by it. It's not hard to see this young fellow is a fraud. Not hard that is, unless you've got the ache.

We have a general proposition that religion (or at least faith) is good for you, which I do not doubt. But, it is difficult to get these vitamins if you are legitimately skeptical of all messianic movements, all extra sensory experiences, occultism, or hardcore political ideologies. We have frauds galore. In fact, in all liklihood we have nothing but frauds, and perhaps we need to ask why? There are a few people that are sort of follower types, like Sister Theresa, who seem pretty genuine. But where would she be without faith? I see this very peculiar situation where some of the followers are more noble and genuine than any of the messiahs. What's going on with this? Virtue is a headless animal, that believes it has a head? What box am I stuck in, that this makes no sense to me? I mean, it really *is* irrational, in the most profound sense. Yet somehow it makes more sense than the notion of no nobility or virtue at all. This does not comfort me in the least. Peculiarly, I am only comforted by the possibility that I've missed something of great importance... something that everyone else has missed too. Well, I'm also comforted by the fact that I don't think about this stuff too much.

-MM

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:07:20 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mickey Moss
Subject: Re: Hey, don't be so persnickety
Message:
Mickey,

I scratch this itch all the time. I don't know the answers at all but do enjoy reading the evolutionary psychology speculations on the subject. Pinker's book How the Mind Works has some interesting musings I'll re-read and try to paraphrase over the next day or so.

By the way, Mother Teresa was a power-hungry despot, at least according to Christopher Hitchen's book. (Sorry, I THINK it was Hitchens who wrote a scathing bio on her. Couldn't find it right now though.)

Here's a link to an article from Free Inquiry you might find interesting.
Mother Teresa's House of Illusion

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 23:33:36 (EDT)
From: Mickey Moss
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hey, don't be so persnickety
Message:
Jim:

Re: By the way, Mother Teresa was a power-hungry despot, at least according to Christopher Hitchen's book.

That's hyperbole. The illusion is that people who do great things by marshalling resources, and the involvement of others, have no taste for or affinity with power. It is a Hollywood stereotype. Apparently it pisses some people off to find that there are no transcendant humans. I'll check out the links in the next few days. But, what gets me off seems to be pretty consistent with how I'm made up, not with the fact that it satisfies some universal or transcendant need. It is something called 'facility.' All saints would seem despotic, if they had any real power to administrate. How would we know whether they were evil or good?

-MM

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:01:08 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Deputy
Subject: Re: people are nuts
Message:
Thanks for an interesting thread. There are a couple things I don't understand in the posts above. (1) 'those who attend religious services regularly have a lower mortality rate.' (Don't we all have the same mortality rate?) And (2) ...b says we have control over our attitude. That's a moot point. Some people have no control over that aspect of themselves at all. But, even if we do have some control over that, and If we are all indeed on that doomed ship like you wonderfully but painfully describe, isn't the proper attitude a very negative one?? Wouldn't any attempt at positivity be a pitiful and futile exercise? What good is happiness that isn't real? One admonition: we cannot lump all 'religious' people into one group. There are Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan who will physically attack a woman whose ankles are showing in public, and then there are others who say 'my religion is simple, my religion is kindness.' Finally, do we humbly open our little consciousness to the power that manifests this universe? Or do we insist that there is no power and make our way through the meaninglessness with something we call 'courage'?
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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 00:25:05 (EDT)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Hi way
Message:
Hey there Way, I figured we would restart our previous
thread eventually.
I have your last post in print and will get it out
tomorrow or sunday.
Attitude is a control we have at our disposal. I agree
with your view that we all dont use it to our advantage.

I hear you about the ship.
But I think the limitations we trip over are not a reason
for a negative attitude, but a reason for being glad.
They save us from a worse fate.

When you said 'do we open ourselves to the power that
manifests this universe?', I think many people are
avoid the possibility just because of the
way the invitation is presented.

So often the folks that decide to play a role inviting
others to have a relationship with a self aware god
make it distant and frankly wierd.

'Too many cooks', and all that might fit here.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:30:19 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: religion
Message:
In my work I have had the opportunity to observe the differences between how religious people, mostly Christian, cope with loss of a baby versus people without religion. It makes me envy those with religion. Having a God to pray to, a hope that your loved one is not lost forever but waiting for you in a beautful place comforted by a loving God, this makes the deep hurts in life easier to cope with. Also, they often have a caring community of other Christians rushing in to offer support. Real support, help with older kids, meals, and love. Of course I see those angry at God for what has happened as well but generally faith seems to help people handle horrific things.

Okay, blast me, but I wish I could have faith. I think the cult has scarred the pathway to that part of my heart so much that I will never be able to have any kind of religion. As far as I go is a silent prayer to a God I hope is there, not that I know is there.

My daughter was recently, by her own choice, baptised Catholic. In no way does she approach her faith in a cultlike way. We have talked a great deal about the value of critical thinking and she deals with contradictions intelligently. I had to stand up with her at the service. I am PHOBIC of churches. Ever since the Guru. But I said to myself, I love my daughter and I can do this for her. Guess what? The priest who baptised her was from INDIA! I nearly had to run screaming from the room. He sounded like Jagdeo. It was so intense to listen to this man using the words God and Lord and whatever other familiar term in his sermon. I was very unhappy. I kept saying to myself 'he's just from India' he can't help that he sounds like this.

When I stood up with my daughter it was clear I had not the slightest idea of how a Catholic service was conducted. The priest was crying for some reason. I do not know what was making him cry. My daughter was the only one being baptised so I imagine it was something to do with it. I am not sure what meaning if any to ascribe to any of this. I guess what I am saying is that I hope my daughter can have God in her life in a sane way ( lay off Jim) and I had to do something I found very threatening in the hope that I would not pass along my own screwed up spirituality to her.

It was a very odd experience. Not sure what it all meant. But I did manage to cope for my daughter's sake.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:52:42 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: religion
Message:
Susan,

You wrote beautifully. Especially your phrase 'scarred the pathway to that part of my heart.' Both wonderfully put and painful, (like Bill's semi-verse on the Ship of Fools).

Eight years ago my youngest sister died unexpectedly at the age of 26. I come from a large family, some are quite religious and some are not at all. My Baptist sister prayed for my youngest sister's life the entire four days that she lay in a coma, and was convinced that her prayers would be heard. They may have been heard, but the expected answer did not come back. Her 'faith' was of course severely tested. My mother attempted suicide a few days after the death. She now refuses to pray to God, and only prays to my youngest sister. It is of course at times like these that we become more acquainted with our own heart and we most fully recognize where happiness lies.

I wonder if your daughter knows what you went through for her? I hope your scars heal and disappear.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:35:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: religion
Message:
Hey, did I say anything?

Sheesh!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 11:38:29 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: LOL LOL LOL
Message:
Thanks Jim :)
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 10:57:49 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: All
Subject: I remember a charitable act!
Message:
When I became a premie in 1975 things were very different than they were in 1976 ( the year of the mind) and then the late seventies ( the heavy devotional period)

Thinking about all this I just remembered a few things....we used to do things that were actually nice. A group of premies and I all went to a home for mentally disabled children ( in 1975) and played with them The kids loved it, the premies were great with them. I remember being shocked by these poor kids living in an institution having never seen anything like that before. I also recall that on certain nights of the week we would have movie night, 'Harold and Maude', another movie about the two kids lost among the aboriginies, those were the only two I remember. We would also have picnics and such, played volleyball. I had forgotten all this. I do not remember anything like this ever happening again after the 1976 let's stop being a cult and then the ooops...ha ha fooled you we really are a cult......all I remember after that is satsang, service ( service being only to the guru and cult, not to places like orphanages) and meditation.

Were these changes the same in other communities?

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 15:55:38 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: I remember a charitable act!
Message:
Hi Susan,

Hope you are well. I worked at a psychiatric hospital and felt like a little saint there! That was the late seventies. It was incredibly hard work but I enjoyed it and felt I was doing it for my sat-guru. Now I realise he couldn't have cared less. Sad but true.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 15:19:34 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: The Short-Lived Humanitarian Period
Message:
There was that period in the cult, around 1975 and 1976 when Maharaji still allowed the illusion that what he was about had something to do with bringing peace to the world, aleviating poverty and the like. There was a brief period when doing humanitarian things for others was considered, sort of, 'service.' PLA was part of this. I recall going to senior citizen's homes and homes for disabled children.

But when Maharaji began his super-devotional, dark, paranoid period in 1977 he said that 'service' was what you did for Guru Maharaj Ji. Anything else, done for anyone else --the poor, the downtrodden, or your own children-- was NOT service. PLA was disbanded and we spent our time, resources, skills and MONEY to get Maharaji all the best of everything, including a Boeing 707 with gold toilets. We even took a cue from the Moonies and sold flowers on the streets of several large, American cities. I recall one time in 1979 at a meeting at DLM headquarters, someone mentioned reviving PLA and they were almost laughed out of the room and certainly put down for their lack of 'understanding.'

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:38:09 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Short-Lived Humanitarian Period
Message:
Hi JW, I love that 'lack of understanding' line. How many times did I hear initiators and coordinators who were trying to select someone for a 'sensitive post' judging their 'understanding'. It's laughable now. They were trying to determine their level of programming, nothing more. If so and so would behaved liked a programmed premie robot consistently they got the post. However if they could not be counted on to consistently think like a premie forget it; they needed more satsang, service and meditation. This is the perfect way to develop a useless f**ked-up organization like EV. Anyway you can throw out the dictionary when dealing with cults. They make up their own meanings for the words they use. As does their teacher so what can you expect. Am I still pissed about this? Guess so. Zac
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:07:35 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Re: The Short-Lived Humanitarian Period
Message:
Right, 'understanding' always did mean programming. Maharaji uses it the same way. It's a code word for unconditional faith and acceptance in whatever Maharaji does, doesn't do, says, doesn't say, and that you having a great and beautiful experience even if you are miserable.

I remember one initiator (guess who?) told me that I had not 'taken the sword of service.' All I could say was, WHAT? It was then that he said I lacked 'understanding.'

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 16:04:01 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: The hungry will always be with you
Message:
I think the thing that roped me in in the first place, funnily enough, were Charanand's parables from the Bible. So charitable works seemed to be the thing to do. Then mirage said something like, 'The poor will always be with you but I won't,' (just like Jesus,) so serve me me me me me me me me me Me!!!

So just like Martha we washed his feet instead of the kitchen floor!

Then during the eighties & nineties it was alright to make lots of money for him, him, him ,him.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 14:08:49 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: 'Ah but I was so much older then...'
Message:
Hi Susan,

I got my machine mended ok, but am going through the tunnel to Belgium, on a train tomorrow afternoon, so am just passing through before the football match starts on TV.

In London we had WWA (World Welfare Association). Maharaji made a video launching it, saying something like 'This is the tool with which we'll defeat poverty (I'm adlibbing here).

Anyway, our contribution was to join PLA (a division of WWA and somehow related to DUO). which was 'Performers of the Living Arts'. Syd, an ex who occasionaly visits here, was a member). We performed about 3 plays in childrens' homes and institutions for the mentally ill.

On one occasion, after playing in a mental hospital, we were on our way out and stopped for trying to escape. This was back in 1975/6, time. Out of a group of 20, 16 are still locked up. It took the rest of us weeks to get out. We had to tunnel, because none of us could convince the psychiatrist we were sane.

Those were the days- curing the worlds ills AND being a disciple of the living lord AND living in a squat.

Anth the Mentally Unbalanced Thespian Spritual Squatter.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 17:54:33 (EDT)
From: Syd
Email: syd@a-loose-end
To: AJW
Subject: Re: 'Ah but I was so much older then...'
Message:
Hi Anth,

I still lurk around these parts from time to time... just curious but can't think of much to say so I don't post.

Did the book arrive safely?

Syd

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 11:57:19 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: idiot party
Message:
I was in Miami during the 75 or 76 world welfare org.
that briefly did good deeds. Miami premies went to
a retarded facility and put on 'clown acts' in the gym
in front of at least 200 retards and thier counselors.

Only problem, there was no clown training! SO except for
a couple premies that knew how make those balloon shapes,
and stand on their heads, the other 25 premies just
acted stupid and were -winging it- acting like RETARDS!

The counselors kept waiting for the show to begin but it was
just a completely spastic un thought out clown meyhem
'show'!
I kept waiting also, figureing that surely there was
something big or organised planned.
Finally, counselors just started taking thier
people away after a long wait.
I kid you not.
It was just premies all made up with nothing to do but
hit balloons and fall and make faces and do that sad clown
thing and bonk each other with balloons.
I watched the whole thing from the bleachers.
I had gotten there too late to get my face painted and
dress up in nutty mismatched clothes and missed what
I assumed must have been a pre-meeting. Well, thats what
you get when you arent allowed in your mind.
I doubt if the Miami 'community' tried anything again.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:55:38 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Goddamned you, Bill!
Message:
You made me choke on my greek salad. That's hilarious and oh, so embarrassing even by proxy.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 17:29:58 (EDT)
From: Jesse Ventura
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Sounds Like the Reform Party
Message:
Idiot Party? It sounds like the Reform Party. You know, clowns and retards: Ross Perot, Pat Buchanan, and me, hey ME!
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 17:16:15 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Politically Incorrect, but ***Best of Forum***
Message:
What a great scene that must have been. The residents must have anticipated the event for weeks and then it was no different that your usual day in the wards. At least they might have gotten a little extra in the bedtime medication.

***Best of Forum***

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:01:14 (EDT)
From: gmom
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: BB
Message:
We had HAD to be at the same thing. My memories are vague on this but I WAS in Miami. The guy who I remember having some real talent was JIm. Do you remember any other names of people there? To you remember a teenage girl with braces and really geeky looking? Me?
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:05:03 (EDT)
From: Susan Gmom
Email: None
To: gmom
Subject: Re: BB
Message:
Maybe they went to this place more than once, because I do not rmember a show I just remember playing with the kids. But seriously, how long were you in Miami?
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:23:26 (EDT)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Susan Gmom
Subject: Re: BB
Message:
I do remember you, and you were beautiful!
Girls always think they arent beautiful at that age.
Were you playing in a gym?
This was as I said, so maybe you were there but since
you were playing and at that age, you overlooked
the overall picture.
Kids have a way of just being in the moment and being
comfortable and not noticeing what the adults are going
through.
I have had a strong ability to walk out of a room and
just let go and forget what just happened. (The
long term memory still kept things on file however)
And so I left that gym and just blanked it out.

YOU also did that I see. It must be some sort of
protection mechanism for you. The clown thing was funny
looking back but a horror show while happening.

I didnt like the hartford community in late 75 so I
stayed down in fla after the 75 orlando event.
I mostly was in west palm beach but did short stints
in Miami and Gainsville.
Back to conn before the summer heat!
I moved back to Miami in 79 for the 707 project.
Where were you then?
I wont be able to read your post till later.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:11:51 (EDT)
From: Susan Gmom
Email: None
To: Susan Gmom
Subject: Re: BB
Message:
more..do you remember the Brickell Ave ashram? The YWCA? The Holi on Cape Florida, Key Biscayne? The program afterward in the High School auditorium when they brought out the weeks old Premlata? Did we know any of the same people I wonder?
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:25:09 (EDT)
From: *>*...c
Email: None
To: Susan Gmom
Subject: Re: BB
Message:
Wow, you go way back!
Were you at millenium also?
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:35:10 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: *>*...c
Subject: Jan 1975
Message:
I recieved Knowledge January 1975. I think that Holi was March 1975. I didn't know at the time that a Holi of such a small size was unusual at all.

Yes, I do remember being in a gym. I do not remember a show just playing with kids and how this guy Jim was so good with the kids. I don't remember his last name but I think he had an acting background. I think he was in the ashram.

When you have time I really would get a kick out of seeing who our mutual friends might have been. Unless your name is an alias I do not rmember you. I will just bet that you are remembering my friend, she was the pretty one, olive skin and brown hair, I was this tall awkward braces a little pudgy greasy blonde haired thing...the pictures of me from that age look pretty darn geeky still! But thank you anyway!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 02:18:50 (EDT)
From: *>*...d
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: maserati-JW?
Message:
there was a holi in 74 and 75 down there.
It wasn't your friend that was beautiful, it was YOU.

Forget how pictures come out. Quite often I see pictures
and the person always looks better in real life.
Except for those professional shots, they know how to use
lighting and angle to best effect.

If you were at the holi in 74,
you might have seen the maserati that the lord was
driving during that trip.
JW may not know this, but Jeffery Pease used 30,000$
that someone donated to m in Boston
and used it to but m a maserati
and surprised him with it when he got to Boston. In 74.
rawat had a program in boston and I got to kiss his AND
his mom's feet and rheka, an indian woman who programmed
me in hartford when I was an aspirant, talked to m in
boston and asked him to come to hartford. He said 'no
one loves me in hartford' and drove right on through
on highway 84 on his way to NYC for the next event.
He was being followed by a car that was security and also
knew where he was heading. M pulled the car over and
said to the car following him, 'I cant get this thing
out of third gear' and the guy said 'why not?' and
m said ' because your driving to slow!'

marolyn was shadowing him on the tour and she and m would
go out at night and whatever. mata ji knew and was angry
that he was seeing her. This was the last lord and mom
tour and the holi event was I think the last event they were
at together.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 12:14:29 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: IamSusan@ivillage.com
To: *>*...d
Subject: thanks *>*...d
Message:
Glad it WAS me. I was only at the 75 Holi. I was not involved before that well probably in late 74 as an aspirant but I think it was no time at all till I was initiated into the cult.

Do you remember the people in the Brickell Ave ashram? Most of my premie friends lived in South Miami/Coral Gables/Coconut Grove. In 1979 I was feebly attempting to be an ex as well as becoming a mother at the end of the year. This is likely why you do not rmember me. I would bet you knew my ex husband though. If you have an email I could email you his name. Or you can email me at above address.

Despite having been sort of forced into naming names recently I do not want to generally put people's names here as it seems like something one might like a choice about.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:48:32 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Re: Jan 1975
Message:
Jim Montana, perhaps?
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 00:43:07 (EDT)
From: Deena
Email: deena@dlcwest.com
To: All
Subject: Hello!
Message:
Hi Chuck or whoever is monitoring this site for Canada these days! I'm writing to say hello to all my old chums...Jim, JW etc. Brief visit here, first in months just to pop in and see what my old friends are up to. E-mail if you want. I see that you are hard at it after all this time...shedding light on an otherwise murky picture. Can't believe you haven't gotten M to give up and go back to India where idle worship is fashionable. Ah well...one can always dream. I'm not staying. Don't want Chuck or anyone else ruining my marriage by embarrassing my husband at an event by mentioning I was here again. So e-mail me, haven't heard from anyone in ages...lost all my e-mail addresses.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 00:49:20 (EDT)
From: Susan Gmom
Email: None
To: Deena
Subject: Re: Hello!
Message:
Hi Deena I will write you
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Date: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 at 23:56:36 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Christmas Satsang
Message:
Jim asked me to post some of the stuff from that Christmas satsang in 1979, so, as published in THE DIVINE TIMES, January/February, 1980 here it is.

This was when knowledge wasn't about meditation or 'enjoying life.' No, that is a relatively recent development in Maharaji's cult. In those days, it was about DEVOTION andSURRENDER; Guru Maharaj Ji was ALL POWERFUL, and if you didn't recgonize that, you were bound for hell. All this stuff I am sure Maharaji now wishes he hadn't said, but it kept many of us locked away in his monastic houses of the forelorn for many years, completely out of fear. As he says, on December 25, 1979:

'And there is only one path: to become a devotee, to completely dedicate, to completely be dedicated and to completely let go of this life...And the only reason for this existence is to be a devotee. And the only thing that ever happens is devotion. And this mind, body and soul are focused on one thing and that is devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji.'

'A devotee will follow their Guru Maharaj Ji wherever Guru Maharaj Ji goes and not be involved in anything else.'

Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace (capitalized) is that power that pulls you out....Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace is that power that saves a being. And only when we become a devotee, only then are we even capable of receiving that Grace.'

'And the ones who deserve it get it. When those devotees those beings who have recognized their Guru Maharaj Ji, those beings. And once I was just reading that statement of Kabirdas. And he says, 'PEOPLE WHO CONSIDER GURU MAHARAJ JI SOMETHING ELSE ARE DEFINITELY BOUND TO HELL.'' THERE'S NO IF'S, AND'S AND BUT'S ABOUT IT.'
[But Maharaji never threatened us about leaving, did he?????]

'And what do you want for Christmas?...Nobody thinks about why Jesus came into this world. Nobody thinks of that: what's really true of Knowledge, why Jesus came as Guru Maharaj Ji for those devotees, revealed Knowledge to them, gave them that experience. Nobody remembers that. Because Christ came. His purpose, was for sat chit and anand. What he came in this world for, what he revealed in this world, was this Knowledge, that love, that devotion...For a devotee it's always Merry Christmas because there is never a time in this world when Guru Maharaj Ji isn't here."
[So much for never claiming to be the equivalent to Jesus Christ...Man, Maharaji has backed down from this line, big time.]

But I mean the devotee's prayer to Guru Maharaj Ji always is, 'Oh Guru Maharaj Ji, YOU ARE ALL-POWERFUL (really?? I guess that was just until 1985 when his marriage was falling apart), you are all merciful. Save me. Give me that help that I need in my life.' [All powerful? And Jim just called him on the phone. He can't even keep his phone number out of circulation!]

GAG, GAG Barf, barf YEEECHHH.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 19:12:28 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Thanks for the wonderful reminder JW -- you're a lifesaver
Message:
Got any more?
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 17:39:04 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: Is that a gun in your pocket...
Message:
...or do you still get off on the old stuff?

I mean, was that 'Got any more?' comment supposed to be irony or something?

My friend the 'interested observer' had a look at this satsang, and his comments are unrepeatable here, 'coz they'd look like incitement to violence. (He has also read through the stuff on the ELK site, to avoid any bias from my direction.)

But honestly, URL, what do you think of the Christmas Satsang? I mean, if it weren't for your irrefutable personal experience and superior understanding and all, surely you too would consider this address to be the ravings of an unstable megalomaniac. Imagine if had been Applewhite or Jim Jones on that stage... what then?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 20:19:10 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: Is that a gun in your pocket...
Message:
My friend the 'interested observer' had a look at this satsang, and his comments are unrepeatable here, 'coz they'd look like incitement to violence.

I'm sure your friend is a nice guy and all, but his disdain for that satsang carries about as much weight with me as the outrage of the day over Capernicus' findings concerning the earth's orientation to the sun. I put as much stock in his opinion as I would if he offered a second opinion about whether or not I needed heart surgery.

Look, there's a certain premise within which Maharaji's words make complete sense; that premise being that the purpose of human life on earth is to experience one's relationship to their creator. Now you can argue against that until you're blue in the face, but there's a large body of historical thought that supports this premise that certainly cannot be flippantly discarded.

So let's pretend for a moment there is a creator and there is just this one raison d'etre that this creator had in mind. How does one accomplish it? Well, in order to follow just one thing, any one thing, you would have to be pretty devoted to pursuing that one thing. Hey, we've just introduced the concept of devotion.

So the next question is, what do you do if you're not very good at being devoted. Well, you're screwed. Sorry, can't accomplish the prime purpose for being placed on this beautiful globe in the middle of this dark and enigmatic universe. Not so fast, maybe there's somebody around who knows what it takes to be devoted, who can help me to fulfil this lofty goal. Someone who can give me lessons, so to speak. Bingo! I think I need a master.

So, given the difficulty in pursuing just one thing, and given that it is probably not a strength that most have, what would be the first thing this master, whom the student has sought out, would impress upon them? TO PAY ATTENTION! Pay attention so they can learn the moves that are going to make them successful. How much attention is required? More than they've got to give. That's ok because if this goal is what they sincerely want, this master will spot them when they need it and won't let them fall. So much so that he will dedicate HIMSELF to them achieving this goal.

So for this individual striving to accomplish this one thing, the net of all this help is a lot of gratitude. Gratitude for the master. Gratitude that there's an answer to be found. Gratitude that the answer feels so good. But the downside is that if you don't care about accomplishing this one thing, then you wouldn't have a clue what all this gratitude shit is all about. You may even in your ignorance think people who have it are idiots.

That's ok because those 'idiots' are soaring to heights undreamed of by their 'rational' and socially correct scrutinisers.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 20:58:11 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Hey, hold on there!
Message:
I'm sure your friend is a nice guy and all but his disdain for that satsang carries about as much weight with me as the outrage of the day over Capernicus' findings concerning the earth's orientation to the sun. I put as much stock in his opinion as I would if he offered a second opinion about whether or not I needed heart surgery.

Funny you didn't take this tack when I first proposed tracking down an IO. Now you say their opinion ain't worth shit. Do you have any idea what you're doing? You're eliminating all rational ties to the world around you. That's what you're doing, bud. And in doing so you're doing what cult members have done so often before. You're circling your wagons and praying you're right. It's a desparate move, Url. Sure, you might not be an idiot, but you're sure acting like one.

Really, haven't you noticed what's going on in the Toyko death cult these days? Don't you wonder how otherwise sane, intelligent people could stay caught up in something so fucked up and how bizarre it is for them to think a little window dressing like a name change is all they've got to do to be presentable again? Your cult leader claimed to be God in Human Form! He might not have tried to kill a bunch of people but his proclamations were every bit as weird. This asshole told people he was the Saviour of Mankind. It ain't happening, Url. The show's over. Get a grip.

And what's with this Copernicus comment? You're on the wrong side of that one, Url, by a country mile. Copernicus stood for free thought, observation, nascent scientific process and challenging dogma. You stand for the opposite. What an absolutely perverse thing for you to say.

Look, there's a certain premise within which Maharaji's words make complete sense; that premise being that the purpose of human life on earth is to experience one's relationship to their creator. Now you can argue against that until you're blue in the face, but there's a large body of historical thought that supports this premise that certainly cannot be flippantly discarded.

'There's a large body of historical thought....' is an entirely lame argument. There's a large body of historical thought that says the earth's flat. And yes, an empt argument like that can only be flippantly disgarded.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:43:59 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hey, hold on there!
Message:
Now you say their opinion ain't worth shit. Do you have any idea what you're doing? You're eliminating you. That's what you're doing, bud.

Geez, Jim cut out the dramatics. I haven't eliminated 'all rational ties to the world around [me]' whatsoever. As a matter of fact I'm quite plugged in to the 'outside world' as you call it. You've really got to come out of your conspiracy theory riddled mentality. I know, you've been watching those X-files marathons again, haven't you.

What I'm doing is ruling out an opinion of an uninformed bystander because they don't have the basis upon which to form one. That being, a keen desire to 'accomplish that one thing'. As a matter of fact Jim, that is the same reason why I rule out your opinion. Sorry bud, you may in fact have the world on your side but you still don't qualify for shit in my books.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 22:46:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Okay, I take it back. You ARE stupid
Message:
What I'm doing is ruling out an opinion of an uninformed bystander because they don't have the basis upon which to form one. That being, a keen desire to 'accomplish that one thing'. As a matter of fact Jim, that is the same reason why I rule out your opinion. Sorry bud, you may in fact have the world on your side but you still don't qualify for shit in my books.

You're a joke, Url. I suppose you'd rule out Satpal too, huh? And mom for that matter. Yeah, you're a joke. Not worth talking to when the conversation gets so ridiculous. Get lost.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 11:31:02 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Right, why don't you ask your rational man friend
Message:
You know Jim, your tactic of throwing your hands up when presented with a valid argument and calling your opponent names is getting just a little bit old. Do you do that in the court room? Why don't you....
GROW THE FUCK UP!
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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:06:57 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: What does GROW mean?
Message:
Could you please translate this in regular English?

Is it related to become mature or something?

Still wondering....

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 12:14:49 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Fuck off Jean-Michel -- you're too small a man to care about (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 17:47:27 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: URL
Subject: How big a man are you, Mr Anonymous?
Message:
Premie ji,

Why would M make J-M an initiator if he was as 'small' a man, as you would have it? Two years ago you would have valued J-M's divinely-appointed opinion, whether the man himself were grand or petit. Are you questioning Prem's judgement of character?

And do you ever ask yourself this: who amongst your premie aquaintances might next flee the nest? And if they did, would their opinions of Maharaji suddenly - after twenty five years or so - instantly become dud currency because they no longer concur with your own?

URL, your posts are so dumb they are becoming an entertainment in their own right. Often better than M's most outstanding and outrageous quotes. May I suggest you quit the forum for your own sake - and perhaps for the sake of your sanity. Take time out. Think a little. It's obvious you are itching to join in with the world of rational debate. Hang in there and you might eventually know what a 'valid argument' looks like.

Let's face it - most people here don't give a flying fuck whether you clock in or otherwise. You won't be missed. Better still - again, for your own sake, get out of that stupid cult. Even there, I suspect, you won't be missed that much (though your donations might...)

J-M has integrity. You don't. Salut, Jean-Michel!

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Date: Sat, Oct 02, 1999 at 06:30:33 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: How big a man are you, Mr Anonymous?
Message:
Thanks Nigel for your support !

I really feel much better these days, I guess I'm out of my 'anger' time completely.

I still can't understand what premies (like URL) get from discussing with exes, except anger ..... ('anger desire attachment ....')

I've met quite some of them in real life, and I've seen them getting VERY much pissed after that sort of argument.

I can't imagine them having fun on this forum, whatever they say to justify their presence here, adding every day more ridicule to their guru ...

I can understand how frustrated they get. But then ....

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 13:07:28 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Taller than you!
Message:
Why are you so pissed at me?
Glen, right?
Personal issues?
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 19:54:30 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Cat got your tongue lately, URL?
Message:
We all notice that you disappear when things get really controversial here about your guru, URL. Guess you just have to look the other way when people like Abi and Susan tell their stories about Rawat's employeee, Jagdeo, huh? Perfect master's not so perfect after all, is he? Did you notice that EV is registered as a church in at least one state?
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:24:41 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Know It All
Subject: No, just taking a breather
Message:
KIA, to answer your comments: I disappeared before it got REALLY controversial. Haven't looked the other way at all. Don't have a clue how a perfect is supposed to act -- first one I've ever met. Who cares what it's registered as. A rose by any other name....

Regarding Jagdeo, there are two separate issues: 1) allegations of criminal behaviour of Jagdeo concerning paedophilia, and 2) allegations that Maharaji did not address the accusations against Jagdeo adequately when they were supposedly reported to him. For those who are truly advocates for abused children, the former issue is the important one of the two. Others whose prime goal is to tarnish Maharaji any which way they can, contribute to the outcry against Jagdeo primarily to satisfy their own personal agenda.

Looking at the allegation against Jagdeo, there have been two apparently unorchestrated and separate sets of incidents that have been reported of child sexual abuse -- one from Susan and one from Abi. It is hard to imagine that these two reports are coincidental so let's assume for a moment that the allegations against him are true -- of course, he is still entitled to his day in court. This leaves us with the allegation against Maharaji.

The first important question: Was he presented with the allegations against Jagdeo in a manner that clearly indicated there was a problem? If not, then he was never really told. If he was told, there could have been a number of possible outcomes:

1) Maharaji disregarded the claims as being bogus or unimportant, or he was too busy to care. If so, exes have a case against Maharaji for negligence. Given his attention to detail, I do not believe Maharaji would brush off such serious allegations this way and so IMHO this is not a real possibility.

2) When presented with the allegations, Jagdeo admitted guilt. Maharaji addressed the behaviour extracting a pound of flesh and posting Jagdeo to an outlying region of his domain, making sure it would never happen again upon fear of a fate worse than death. If so, assuming the behaviour was in fact stopped, it could be argued that Maharaji exercised poor judgement in not understanding the optics of allowing a paedophile to keep a respected rank in his organisation. Or he weighed the risk but felt obliged to care for one of his devotees who had clearly gone astray. I do know that Jagdeo has kept a very low profile for a number of years now and I never understood why, so this is a real possibility.

3) When presented with the allegations, Jagdeo admitted guilt, Maharaji said, 'I've got no problem with that', and proceeded to let Jagdeo go on his merry way molesting at will. If so, exes have a case against Maharaji for gross negligence. Knowing the respect and care I have seen him demonstrate for premies, this scenario is preposterous.

4) Jagdeo is guilty but lied to Maharaji assuring him the allegations were false, and Maharaji accepted him at his word. So in his mind 'no follow-up was required, as Jagdeo committed no crime'. If so, this would show that Maharaji can be deceived, and he could be faulted for not paying enough due diligence to such a serious accusation. It does however kind of force you to go back to the drawing board and rework your theories about omniscience -- which is good because none of us have a clue what the word means anyway.

5) The allegations are false and Jagdeo assured Maharaji as much. Again, no follow-up required. He is right to ignore an allegation if it is clearly bogus. I mean, which claims do you spend limited time and resources following up on and which ones do you just not get around to addressing? The answer to that is, hopefully the right ones.

6) The issue fell off the radar. In his defence, given the number of wild accusations that are no doubt thrown in front of him every day, especially from premies and exes with a propensity to lay blame where none exists, it is a real possibility that this issue could have been lost in the milieu. Now THAT would qualify in my books as 'lila'.

7) None of the above.

So which one of the above is it? My bet is on #7.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 01:09:02 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: No, just taking a breather
Message:
5) The allegations are false and Jagdeo assured Maharaji as much. Again, no follow-up required. He is right to ignore an allegation if it is clearly bogus. I mean, which claims do you spend limited time and resources following up on and which ones do you just not get around to addressing? The answer to that is, hopefully the right ones.


So you would have complete and utter faith to leave your children unattended with Jagdeo? Why is it that everyone is lying around here except M?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 20:27:14 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Re: No, just taking a breather
Message:
Ben get a grip. I offered a list of scenarios for consideration. I'm not saying anything about Jagdeo's guilt.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 22:57:54 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: You've been dreaming
Message:
'Knowing the respect and care I have seen him demonstrate for premies'

What dream did you pull that one out of? Maharaji has always treated premies with contempt. Here are some examples.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 20:38:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: You're too funny, Url
Message:
Url,

You're obviously an intelligent guy. No, really. Of course you are. But, well, how can I put it? You say some really dumb shit here, you know. Like REALLY dumb.

Like how about this:

Don't have a clue how a perfect [master] is supposed to act -- first one I've ever met. Who cares what it's registered as. A rose by any other name...

Apparently, Url, you only know Maharaji's a Perfect Master because that's what you've been told. You're damned right you don't know how one's supposed to behave. You don't know shit. For all you know there might not really be such a thing as a Perfect Master.

You can see a rose. You can smell it. Compare it to other flowers; it's similar enough to be a flower but different enough to warrant a name of its own. But Maharaji? Take away the trappings and all you've got is a human being. Put him on a stage next to his brother, Satpal and Guru Mayi, let's say. Find me the 'Perfect Master'. You can't do it, Url. Just human beings. You'd think you'd be smart enough to pick up on that.

As for Jagdeo, all your speculation's for not. Maharaji has an rock-solid obligation to answer this one. Who cares what you think? Like you yourself admit, you really don't ahve the faintest idea. What's critical is that Rawat's too scared to speak out. And that, my cult-entrapped friend, is speculation I can easily live with.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:09:27 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: You're too funny, Url
Message:
You can see a rose. You can smell it. Compare it to other flowers; it's similar enough to be a flower but different enough to warrant a name of its own. But Maharaji? Take away the trappings and all you've got is a human being. Put him on a stage next to his brother, Satpal and Guru Mayi, let's say. Find me the 'Perfect Master'. You can't do it, Url. Just human beings.

Jim, I wandered the earth when I was just a young'n searching for a teacher who could satisfy my inner thirst for something. What I was looking for, let's just call it a certain je ne sais quois, was never satisfied by a number of individuals whom I bumped into who said they had something to teach me. When I bumped into Maharaji I knew he was different because my thirst immediately started to be quenched. So there, I can pick out the real perfect master.

BTW speaking of dumb things, your explanation of the subtle differences between a rose and other flowers and the 'loose' segue into the comparisons of so-called perfect masters is REALLY dumb.

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:24:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: No, YOU'RE dumb, I'm clever, witty and, most of all, out of your mind-numbing
Message:
CULT!

You're a fool, Url, if you're willing to buy into this 'I found him because my heart flickered' myth. Every last religious leader around has a bunch of followers who'll same the same thing. Satpal does for sure. I know. I talked with his head guy in Birmingham. Man had been following him for almost 25 years. Sounded just like your typical premie. Now you tell me how you can tell him how to recognize the 'real Perfect Master'.

You're stuck on this one and you know it. There is no proof but your own wishful thinking.

As for my analogy, you say it sucks. Why?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 20:32:17 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh yeah, well take this.....
Message:
You're a fool, Url, if you're willing to buy into this 'I found him because my heart flickered' myth. Every last religious leader around has a bunch of followers who'll same the same thing.

Jim, you're the fool. You want empirical evidence for something that cannot be observed. This argument cannot be won. Resign?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:00:27 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: You've got it all backwards
Message:
You've flip-flopped the burden of proof, dude. Can't prove that Perfect Masters (or unicorns) exist?

You resign!

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 21:54:10 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: You've got it all backwards
Message:
Hey dude, it works fine for me. I have no burden to prove anything to you. You're the one with the bone up your ass about proving me wrong. As a matter of fact that appears to be your raison d'etre.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 23:20:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Stop! You're too confused. Go back.
Message:
Url,

Where'd you learn to think? Not in hindu guru cult, I hope. Tell me, Url, you've got a little better training than that. Please, Url, tell me you've got more than what the guru taught you. For your sake, please.

It doesn't matter who's trying to persuade whom of what. The fact is you believe something fantastic: that there is such a thing as a 'Perfect Master'. Even if it's true, it's remarkable, no? (Before you even try skating past that one, remember that Maharaji himself used to go on and on and on and on and on making that very same point. 'Ants aren't seven inches small, and elephants ...').

The burden of proof's all yours, Url. Sorry, fella, that's just the way it is. Strong claims need strong proof. Radical claims need even stronger.

But, it gets better. Maharaji himself pitched his trip that way. His whole inital sales pitch, if you recall, was 'I can show you God face to face. Don't believe me. Try it and see for yourself.'

Now, years later, it's a much suckier pitch, isn't it? It's all based on priming, primping, pruning and processing the customer.

It's a joke, Url! A big, sick, joke and you're living it!

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 11:49:42 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back.
Message:
Jim let's face it, the concept of a creator is fantastic. That there would be some conciousness behind what appears to be a conglomeration of dumb molecules, who would not only order them into shape and patterns but would do it for a specific reason. THAT is the thing you can't buy. Whew, that's just too much to believe!

Well my three dimensional hunk of warm clay, the mere fact that you have a conciousness alive in your body is fantastic beyond belief. If you can come to grips with that one, coming to grips with the other is but a breath away.

And another thing dude, before the word FOOL so flippantly roles off your fingers, think about just what a fool you're going to feel like if at your last breath you realize you were wrong. NOW THAT would be justice!

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:02:41 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: You have made a valid point here, URL
Message:
the mere fact that you have a conciousness alive in your body is fantastic beyond belief.

True, but consciousness is there for people who have never heard of Prem Rawat, and even ex-premies will agree that consciousness is fantastic - incredible as that might seem. (Not sure whether consciousness is 'alive', but perhaps that is an espistemiological quodlibet best reserved for another time, heh?)

If you can come to grips with that one, coming to grips with the other is but a breath away.

If you mean 'coming to grips with the Creator', then you are talking bullshit - or, at the very best, expounding a religious belief. By all means imagine you are dipping into infinity when you meditate, and that Prem is he supreme facilitator of that experience, but don't expect the world to take notice when presenting your beliefs as arguments.

BTW: have you read Dennet's 'Consciousness Explained' yet? It is full of crap, at times, but might get you started...

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:27:32 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Re: You have made a valid point here, URL
Message:
f you mean 'coming to grips with the Creator', then you are talking bullshit - or, at the very best, expounding a religious belief.

Why do you say this? Do you think the Creator cannot be known by us living mortals?

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 15:17:24 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back.
Message:
That there would be some conciousness behind what appears to be a conglomeration of dumb molecules, who would not only order them into shape and patterns but would do it for a specific reason.

Consciousness is a fact, that's true. But what do you know about it outside of what you've learned in the realm of ancient beliefs? Those beliefs don't explain the truth of what consciousness is. They're just guessing what it is. And your attachment to them has left you blind to other possibilities, indeed, probabilities, of what consciousness really is.

How much do you know about current scientific studies of consciousness? Anything? Do you even care, or do you simply discredit anything science has to say because it doesn't set well with your established beliefs?

You don't sound like you've looked at this from all angles, URL. If you really want to know the truth, maybe you should.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:17:31 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jerry
Subject: Give up Jerry...
Message:
If I have learned one thing about URL, he/she will ignore your urging him/her to look at things from all angles, and probably come at you with some vapid nonsense along the lines of: 'because I also have this thing called conciousness, [sic] I too can explore it. And I have a nifty tool that most scientists don't have -- Knowledge. No, my understanding of conciousness [sic] isn't based upon ancient beliefs or mumbo-jumbo, just a pretty neat tool that facilitates direct observation of the subject.'

See if I am wrong.

Nige the scientist with Knowledge who can at least spell the bloody word.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:23:33 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: LOL
Message:
How did you know???!!!
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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 18:41:34 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back.
Message:
Jerry, because I also have this thing called conciousness, I too can explore it. And I have a nifty tool that most scientists don't have -- Knowledge. No, my understanding of conciousness isn't based upon ancient beliefs or mumbo-jumbo, just a pretty neat tool that facilitates direct observation of the subject. It's kinda like the difference between the scientist injecting his new chemical compound into rats and observing the result, versus injecting it into himself. The latter gives the scientist first hand understanding of the effects on humans -- the former gives a set of hypotheses based upon experimental data. Of course the latter is a bit risky. But if someone has already injected himself before me and it was ok, the risk to me is managed. In the case of the conciousness experiment, that's where a master is invaluable.

And yes, I have been observing the nature of conciousness every day for 25 years now, so I think you can say I care quite a lot about it.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:18:24 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back.
Message:
URL, you don't need Knowledge to know you're conscious, and from my experience with Knowledge, it neither enhanced my ability to be conscious nor to understand its nature.

Knowledge is a method of FOCUSING consciousness, not for learning what it is. For example, with the first technique you focus your consciousness within, around the 'third eye' area. Does that make you more conscious? Does that give you deeper understanding of what consciousness is? It never did for me. How could it possibly?

You can be just as conscious with your eyes open as with them shut. Maybe you like the experience of consciousness with your eyes shut, but you're not MORE conscious because of it, and you're certainly not being revealed the source of consciousness because of it. IMHO, of course.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 19:33:46 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back.
Message:
URL, you don't need Knowledge to know you're conscious, and from my experience with Knowledge, it neither enhanced my ability to be conscious nor to understand its nature.

Knowledge allows me to 'see' the conciousness within me. By seeing it, I merge with it -- and I merge with it to be able to see it. If this is not your experience then you missed something, IMHO of course.

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Date: Fri, Oct 01, 1999 at 22:05:24 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back.
Message:
URL,

I'm not sure of what you're trying to say here. I never looked at my experience with Knowledge as 'seeing' or merging with consciousness. I don't know what that's supposed to mean, if anything.

This is the problem with Knowledge. It's like chasing rainbows. You never quite catch them. Thankfully, I've regained my senses and understand that Knowledge is NOT a requirement. I can do, and am doing, just fine, better in fact, without it. If it's different for you, well then, only you can determine that.

I still don't think a guru is necessary for enjoying and understanding consciousness. I don't think they know anything about it except for some ancient ideas that don't stand up too well to what's been discovered concerning our evolution and physiology.

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Date: Sun, Oct 03, 1999 at 17:01:53 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: Stop! You're too confused. Go back.
Message:
Jerry. we're all entitled to an opinion as long as it respects the rights of others to have theirs, right or wrong. I took sciences in uni, read a lot about conciousness but I didn't understand it before having a guru. Afterwards my understanding excelerated immensely. You could outright discard my understanding as baseless just because I'm not a practitioner of the avant guard body of scientific thought on the topic, but I don't think that would be fair. It must be a science that is difficult to measure empiricaly leaving a lot of unknowns and gaps left to interpretation. And it's kind of like jumping across a canyon -- if you can't jump it in one bound, you still haven't taken a real step.

I still believe the best subject to study regarding conciousness is one's self. Ah, if I only had a microscope to use for this purpose....

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 09:24:58 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: My master's better than your master
Message:
Good point, Jim. Perfect masters exist in the mind and heart of the devotee. There's no reason for URL to believe that his experience with Maharaji is any more profound than somebody else's is with some other master.

So, what makes a master a master? I'd say that the devotee does because of that 'flicker in the heart' he feels while in his master's presense. Maharaji is just a guru of choice for some and not for others. Inherently, there's nothing special about him. Right, URL?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 30, 1999 at 15:14:48 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jerry
Subject: Re: My master's better than your master
Message:
You're right, Jerry. And to that I would just add that the only powers a Master has are the ones his devotees grant him, namely: the power to persuade them, the power to elicit donations from them, to even control their lives... which, when you think about it, IS a lot of power when you have thousands of devotees.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 21:15:21 (EDT)
From: Know It All
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Nothing like the denial
Message:
No doubt that Susan and Abi will be interested to hear the mental gyrations you have engaged in in order to deny and excuse the behavior of Rawat and Jagdeo.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 10:43:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Oh THAT Christmas Satsang
Message:
I can just picture Maharaji saying that if he ever 'has the opportunity' to discuss these matters openly. Thanks for posting that Joe. Chilling, isn't it?

Hey, has anyone seen the Blair Witch Project?

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 16:30:03 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Blair Witch Project (ot)
Message:
Hi Jim,

I can tell you don't read my posts. I saw the Blair Witch Project and thought it was awfully boring.

Liz

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 10:55:23 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Blair Witch Project (ot)
Message:
The movie sucked! Don't waste your time and money, it's all just a big hype!
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 16:32:12 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re:It'sAll Hype
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 16:34:53 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Re:It'sAll Hype
Message:
Dear Grace,

It certainly was all hype. Does this remind you of anything else? King's New Clothes cry your heart out!

Liz

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:41:18 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Blair Witch Project (ot)
Message:
Hi Grace I saw the Blair witch project. It made my husband and me sick. The best horror movie of all time is the original 'Haunting', done in the early 60's.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 12:54:47 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Blair Witch Project (ot)
Message:
I didn't see the movie, but I heard that some people get motion sickness when they see it because all the cameras are hand-held so the movie is super-jerky. Is that what made you sick?
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 13:22:21 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Blair Witch Project (ot)
Message:
A newspaper article here said the movie theater ushers were upset because they had to clean up vomit from people getting sick while they watched it. You'd think they'd feel it coming on and leave. Guess they didn't want to miss anything. Definitely not a 'date movie.'
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 13:00:02 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Blair Witch Project (ot)
Message:
yes.
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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 04:18:45 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: ... now online
Message:
On my website, among lots of incredible other proclamations !

The Christmas Satsang

All this has been digged out of our archives. Don't hesitate to submit more of this good stuff!

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 02:11:14 (EDT)
From: bb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Christmas Satsang
Message:
I know that satsang, I was there, dead center, 8 feet
away from him, I considered it the peak of the devotional
satsangs, the whole speech was like the parts you
posted.
I laughed out loud and made the tape of the talk when he
said 'Someday man might decide to go to the sun, and,
make a successful landing as well.'
I figured he was kidding.
I viewed him as the lord.
There were a few of us living quite the gopi life across
from the deca complex.
He had to keep us at a distance because he had no way to
live up to the billing he gave himself.
The power of belief is really strong.
I have never told my story of my devotee life, but the times
we had in that cottage I rented in across from DECA
were such that explain except that there must be a real
lord or power that exists and it had mercy on us in our
innocent belief.
(obviously I was thinking faster than I was typeing
in that last sentence)
I dont think I can go there any more tonight, You know, JW,
not all of the refugees from that era will be able to
dismiss all that happened as DNA synaps firing and
whatever other logics the DNA enthusiests offer up.

What in the world do you think about being here?

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Date: Wed, Sep 29, 1999 at 00:11:21 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: The Christmas Satsang
Message:
And if you don't get it, you don't deserve it because you're not devoted enough. Talk about an emotional choke hold.
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