Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 6
From: Tues, Sep 28, 1999 To: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 Page: 1 Of: 5


Fly -:- What's in a name? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:32:48 (EDT)
__ Monmot -:- Re: What's in a name? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:44:53 (EDT)
__ __ Fly -:- Re: What's in a name? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:31:47 (EDT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Re: What's in a name? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:39:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Fly -:- Re: What's in a name? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:28:16 (EDT)
__ __ prem pal rawatt -:- What's his a name? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:14:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ Fly -:- Re: What's his a name? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:42:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mistress Grammar -:- Thanks, Fly -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:59:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Fly -:- Thank YOU...Ms grim smartarse! (nt) -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:31:37 (EDT)

Deputy Dog -:- TM works & science proves it! -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:32:15 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Re: TM works & science proves it! -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:56:28 (EDT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: TM works & science proves it! -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:21:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- The marketplace? What the fuck is that? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:04:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Survival -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:34:55 (EDT)

Fire Fly -:- Venue change -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:54:48 (EDT)
__ Fire Fly -:- MY BAD !!! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:44:44 (EDT)
__ Surreal Simon -:- Re: Venue change -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 19:59:17 (EDT)
__ __ Mistress Grammar -:- Give me back that sheep -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:51:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You guys aren't funny enough to interrupt this program -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:58:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mistress grammar -:- I did! -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:02:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Ummmmmmmmmm -:- Re: I did! -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:26:28 (EDT)

Jim -:- Anonymity revisited -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:05:53 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- Re: Anonymity revisited -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 17:23:34 (EDT)
__ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Anonymity revisited -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:35:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Anonymity revisited -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 01:02:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Cat, you're the biggest coward of all of them -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:13:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Cat, you're the biggest coward of all of them -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 19:10:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CT -:- Poetry --- -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:43:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Puke Buchanan -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:30:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Who are you, Dog? What are you afraid of? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:42:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- We have nothing to fear but fear itself. -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:04:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Honestly? It makes a difference -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:37:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Honestly? It makes a difference -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:18:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Transparent, lame, predictable and wimpy -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 10:56:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- It's a fair cop -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 18:38:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- What's that mean? (nt) -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 18:54:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Mabe your right (NT) -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 19:02:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Maybe I am a wimp (NT) -:- Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 18:59:02 (EDT)
__ Gregg (my real name!) -:- Re: Anonymity revisited -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:27:18 (EDT)

Jim -:- Maharaji's ulcer -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:57:05 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Jim, you're boring! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 03:55:55 (EDT)

Grace -:- Ashrams...Just Curious -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 09:28:38 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Yes -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:08:56 (EDT)
__ __ URL -:- Yes? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:08:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ JW -:- Re: Yes? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:29:36 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Yes? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 17:44:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: Yes? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:00:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Yes? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 15:48:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ S. Freud -:- Re: Lingua Franca -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:16:44 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- The 'experience' of sleep -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 11:43:27 (EDT)
__ __ Gregg -:- Re: The 'experience' of sleep -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 12:21:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Samadhi every day! -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 12:46:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Grace -:- Thanks for the answers -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:59:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- Re: Thanks for the answers -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:18:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Grace -:- Kissing Feet -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:26:05 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Joey -:- He can kiss my ass! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 01:46:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Richard -:- Re: He can kiss my ass! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:06:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ JW -:- Re: He can kiss my ass! -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:52:05 (EDT)

Jerry -:- Another myth bites the dust (OT) -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 08:16:59 (EDT)
__ Gail -:- So that's why? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 20:43:07 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: So that's why? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 06:51:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Gail -:- Re: So that's why? -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:19:43 (EDT)

Jim -:- Premie purgatory (neti neti) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 20:14:53 (EDT)
__ URL -:- And your point is....... -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 20:45:17 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Really? You honestly need me to spell it out for you? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 20:53:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- Jim, have you completely forgotten? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 03:14:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- What I forgot is that Raja Ji asked me that same question -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:55:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mahatma Vishuwerashighasmee -:- Re: Jim, have you completely forgotten? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:57:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mahatma Vishuwerashighasmee -:- And also, you must remember... -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:13:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mahatman Offanand -:- Very Definitely -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:05:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Grace -:- to Barney (ot) -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 09:36:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger eDrek -:- At least I was monogamous -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:46:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Grace -:- Oops, I mean Roger (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 09:37:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: Really? You honestly need me to spell it out for you? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 21:22:36 (EDT)

Jim -:- What about this, Barb? Hm? -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 19:54:42 (EDT)
__ URL -:- God you're full of shit!! -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:19:41 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Really, Url? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:31:56 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: Really, Url? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 17:48:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Re: Really, Url? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 18:09:57 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Really, Url? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 19:25:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- This is getting funny, Url ... sorry, MR. Url -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 20:16:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Yeah, funny watching you squirm -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 20:43:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Don't talk to me about accountability, Mr. Url, sir -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:28:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ URL -:- Re: Don't talk to me about accountability, Mr. Url, sir -:- Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 15:53:08 (EDT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Re: What about this, Barb? Hm? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 02:34:21 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- Correcting injustice -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 21:01:04 (EDT)
__ __ URL -:- And so are you! -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:28:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- URL: Here is an example -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 17:40:43 (EDT)
__ __ Susan -:- Best of Forum? (nt) -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:36:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ kmdarling -:- Similarities between cults -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:35:42 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Katieunlimited, I couldn't agree more -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:13:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- Here's links to other exes sites -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 04:49:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Monmot -:- Brava (nt) -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:22:28 (EDT)

CdM -:- Alnight Rave for Greyhairs -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 19:21:09 (EDT)

LdM -:- Stages in Recovery -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:23:15 (EDT)
__ Zac -:- Re: Stages in Recovery -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:16:51 (EDT)
__ __ LdM -:- Re: Stages in Recovery -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:28:32 (EDT)
__ __ Zac -:- Re: Stages in Recovery -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:24:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ LdM -:- Re: Stages in Recovery -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:39:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Stages in Recovery -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:53:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ LdM -:- Re: Stages in Recovery -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 19:05:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Diz -:- Re: Stages in Recovery -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 20:58:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ CdM -:- Re: Get the Cure -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:48:02 (EDT)

LdM -:- Different People Leave in Different Ways -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:23:04 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Different People Leave in Different Ways -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 06:29:46 (EDT)
__ kmdarling -:- Re: Different People Leave in Different Ways -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:48:27 (EDT)

Sir Dave -:- Scientific proof against meditation -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 14:29:50 (EDT)
__ Deputy Dog -:- Re: Scientific proof against meditation???? -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:34:12 (EDT)
__ Runamok -:- Re: Scientific proof against meditation -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:59:32 (EDT)
__ __ Nigel -:- Meditation is neither good nor bad... -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 19:18:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ Deputy Dog -:- Right on Nigel (NT) -:- Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:36:59 (EDT)

Dr888 -:- Journeys -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:25:55 (EDT)

Forum Administrator -:- Letters between Glen and Anth. -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:19:13 (EDT)
__ Mr D -:- Above and more is also here -:- Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 14:16:49 (EDT)


Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:32:48 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: Neat Villa Inc
To: All
Subject: What's in a name?
Message:
So I got to wondering.....are the cult names chosen at random, or do they hold some hidden meaning?

Well, after discovering the anagramatical secret behind Elan Vital Inc, I set to work to further my analysis, and I present to you here, for your edification and amusement, the following hidden messages within:

DIVINE LIGHT MISSION
It is living hedonism.
God! nihilism invites.
This sniveling idiom.
I'm evil dog shit in sin.
Its diminishing love.
Loving ties diminish.
Evildoing sits in him.
Smiling in this video.
Hiding vomits in lies.
Loving it diminishes.
It is evil hogs in mind.
I dim to his sniveling.
It is his living demon.
Is most evil in hiding.

And, just so the premies don't feel TOO hurt, here is a decoding of:

ANYTHING GOES FORUM (with apologies to Dave!!)

Huge moronity fangs.
Oh my! Gangrenous fit!
Young fighters moan.
Oh my! funniest aggro.
Naughty egos inform.
Ugh! image on Y-fronts.
Goofy meanings hurt.
Soggy, inhumane fort.
Goofy, resting human.
Naughty forms in ego.
Fine, soggy, human rot.
Oh my! refusing to nag.
Hefty anus grooming.
Fought noisy German.
Fine, gay moron thugs.
Mighty fuse on organ.
I'm a funny ghost ogre.
If young mother nags.
I'm angry, huge of snot.
Fraught, noisy gnome.
Huge antimony frogs.
Goofy meaning hurts.
Ugh! fine gastronomy.
Eighty-four man song.
Goofy things manure.
Foamy, huge snorting.
From nosy, huge giant.
Yeah! Mounting frogs!
On my huge fat groins.
My fine, tough organs.
Fine orgy moans thug.

Yes, I do have WAY too much time on my hands. Any suggestions for other phrases in need of deciphering?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:44:53 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: What's in a name?
Message:
How about:
Bolie shri satgurudev maharaj ki jai
jai satchitanand

That should chew up the clock for you...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:31:47 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: What's in a name?
Message:
That's a tough one! Are you sure the spelling is right?

Anyway, here's a few for starters:

Bolie shri satgurudev maharaj ki jai

Oh jesus, augh! I am a trivial rabid jerk .
I'm a brutish Jugoslavia jerk airhead. (hey, give me time!!)
Ha ha! I judge ambitious jerk arrivals .
Ha ha! joke Gujarati, virile absurdism.
Ha ha! just a bigamous virile arid jerk.
Ugh! Oh jesus! jerk via it, I am a drab liar.

Hmmm. needs work...

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:39:23 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Re: What's in a name?
Message:
Spelling's correct and these are too funny...
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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:28:16 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Monmot
Subject: Re: What's in a name?
Message:
Well thank you...however, due to the rather serious thread now appearing north of here, I felt obliged to continue this little bit of fun over on Anything Goes.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:14:01 (EDT)
From: prem pal rawatt
Email: gerry@homedotcum
To: Monmot
Subject: What's his a name?
Message:
WALTER PAM PAR
APE TRAWL TRAMP
RAPE WALT TRAMP
WATER LAMP TRAP
or my favorite...

PA TRAP RAW MELT

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:42:09 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: prem pal rawatt
Subject: Re: What's his a name?
Message:
Welllll, if you use the full name of

Prem Pal Singh Rawat you get:Grasp prenatal whim.
Large, rampant whips. (This one for you, Mistress Grammar!!)
Warts harm plane pig.
The warm grins appal.
Grim wart plans heap.
Help! Grr! A wimp Satan

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:59:17 (EDT)
From: Mistress Grammar
Email: None
To: Fly
Subject: Thanks, Fly
Message:
Large, rampant DISCIPLE whips.....
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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:31:37 (EDT)
From: Fly
Email: None
To: Mistress Grammar
Subject: Thank YOU...Ms grim smartarse! (nt)
Message:
(nt)
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:32:15 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: TM works & science proves it!
Message:
Jim,

TM works, plain and simple. I don't care what the Germans say. Scientific instruments are used to measure, brain wave frequencies, galvanic skin response, blood lactate levels, and heart rates, and these instruments measure real physiological changes in meditators. Read 'The Relaxation Response' by Herbert Benson M.D. It documents his studies on the benifits of TM at Harvard University, a university that most people would think is reputable.

According to Benson TM (the relaxation response) has helpes millions to cope with fatigue, anxiety, and stress. He was not paid by TM to say that. His research showed that.

Besides, are Germans (who are not known for being particularly spiritual) the best people in the world to be commenting on the changes that long term meditation can bring about. They say TM causes mental illness. Why? Because the meditators change and are no longer caught up in consensus reality? Because someone who meditates for 7 years changes his or her values. Meditation, mantra or otherwise, has been practised in India for thousands of years. Germans should stick to making BMWs. If I want to find about meditation I'll ask a scientist in India, or Harvard.

TM (which I did before K) cured me of serious insomnia, and a friend of mine said that he would not have graduated from law school if it hadn't been for TM.

Anyway, people can read the stuff the Germans say and they read the stuff that Americans say, and take their pick. Let the marketplace decide. I have benfitted from TM, and like Jean-Michel, vipassana meditation. Try them if you like. If you don't that's okay. Just don't block other people from discovering something THEY might benefit from.

I don't give a fuck about Castenada. He wrote some entertaining books with some traditional Yaqui philosophy in them. I liked them. Again, let the marketplace decide.

And just for interests sake Jim what do YOU think works to make people happy? Psychiatry? Physical exercise? Sex? Bungee jumping? Jerking off? What would you recommend to poeple to improve the quality of their lives?

DD (my real name by the way)

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:56:28 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: TM works & science proves it!
Message:
Dog,

You're all over the place. So you think there's some research for and some against. Best to let the whole thing sort itself out in the marketplace? But, Dog, what if the marketplace gets taken over by the Hun? You know, what if a bunch of krauts walk right in and occupy the place? Start shooting and everything. Doing all the non-spiritual things these guys are capable of given half a chance. What then?

Well that's one concern. Another that's been raised but which I don't recall you dealing with is this question of 'works'. What is that, anyway? You know, for TM officials, 'works' could mean nothing more than 'presents itself as a saleable package and earns us lots of money.' For a practitioner it could mean 'relaxes me a bit' OR something far grander, 'shows me the secret inner self which I was born to find.' Which is it?

And as for what makes people happy? Nothing, Dog, nothing makes people happy. Happiness -- or 'jwah' as mahatma ji used to say -- comes from within. Within inside, to be exact. I'd have thought you'd know that by now.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:21:29 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: TM works & science proves it!
Message:
Jim,

I'm all over the place? I said TM works didn't I? If it works people will pay for it, if it doesn't it will die out. Word of mouth, referral, ect. That's what I meant by marketplace. Have you seen any Fiats around lately? Like that.

TM works means that it delivers what it says it does: relives fatigue, lowers high blood pressure, cures insomnia, resuces stress, yadda, yadda yadda.

I know where happiness or the kingdom of heaven is Jim, I was asking you where YOU think it is. You know, Jesus, Buddha, Lao Tzu ect. could have been wrong.

DD

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:04:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: The marketplace? What the fuck is that?
Message:
The more I think about it the more outrageous your marketplace argument strikes me. Hitler did alright in the marketplace -- ah ah AH, not so fast, Dog. I know how you premies like to jump at that name. Satpal has done alright in the marketplace too, apparently. Got himself elected as a credible man of character in India as well as heads up a simply wonderful spiritual organization. Check out the link, Dog.

Now we know that to a premie this man, Satpal, is probably the vilest, evilest, livest, salivest guy around, right? The Lord's own brother betrays him before they finished paying for the astrodome rental. So this fella's a real stinker, no? But he's doing just fine, Dog. I talked to one of his main organizers in England who was just beaming with the pride of a cult in ascendency. So what has the marketplace done here, pray tell?
Your ad could be right here

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:34:55 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Survival
Message:
Jim,

Hitler didn't last too long did he? I'm talking about survival. I'm assuming that what is good will survive and what is evil won't. (Sounds kind of naive doesn't it?)

Satpal has the right to a web sight. Don't know much about him.

I'm a capitalist Jim. Laissez faire! Competition et al.

I'm going to stop posting for a while Jim. My wife is starting to complain.

DD

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:54:48 (EDT)
From: Fire Fly
Email: None
To: Morley
Subject: Venue change
Message:
Please send monies owed and spring shot to hospital address.
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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:44:44 (EDT)
From: Fire Fly
Email: None
To: ALL
Subject: MY BAD !!!
Message:
Ooops, should have checked the mail before I went finger pecking....

All's well, taken care of, and settled quite honorably.

Thank you.

FF

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 19:59:17 (EDT)
From: Surreal Simon
Email: None
To: Fire Fly
Subject: Re: Venue change
Message:
NEVER, I tell you. You'll not get another penny, cent or dime out of me again. Go ahead and SHOW them the photographs of me in my underpants with the sheep. I'm past caring.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:51:28 (EDT)
From: Mistress Grammar
Email: None
To: Surreal Simon
Subject: Give me back that sheep
Message:
I knew it was you in the Karloff mask! When we met at the Malibu post office, I said I would share the sheep if you let me take your picture. Return the sheep and you can have the F****** picture! I just want the sheep back.

Mistress Grammar

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:58:46 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mistress Grammar
Subject: You guys aren't funny enough to interrupt this program
Message:
What's brought your show over from AG anyway?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:02:52 (EDT)
From: Mistress grammar
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I did!
Message:
I brought it here momentarily & am on my way back there right now! Don't be so impolite to Mistress Grammar, James.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:26:28 (EDT)
From: Ummmmmmmmmm
Email: None
To: Mistress grammar
Subject: Re: I did!
Message:
Err, ahhhh, ummmmmmmmm, I think mistress is with a capitol M, but what do I know, my Mistress Grammer.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:05:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Anonymity revisited
Message:
I know this is a sensitive topic for some but I can't help but notice that fewer and fewer ex's seem to feel the need to hide behind pseudonyms here. The premies, on the other hand, almost never post under their real names. And yet, really, if you think of it, shouldn't it be the other way around? I mean, if premies were actually proud of their beliefs and the cult leader who shaped them?

See, it makes sense for an apostate who's broken away from some organized cult like Maharaji's to be a little wary of intimidation if he reveals cult secrets, airs cult dirty laundry or even criticises his former 'master' in a way that neither the master nor any rabid followers would appreciate. We all know, for instance, what happens to people who throw cream pies at the Hamster. Looks like you're better off pulling that prank on some lesser mortal like Bill Gates for instance.

But what do premies have to fear? That some rabid ex is going to track them down and ... I mean, really. That's preposterous. No, the only thing that premies have to worry about here is pissing off the Hamster and perhaps alienating some of their fellow cult members. Pathetic, isn't it? With all their bravado and purported independence, these jokers can't even identify themselves.

Com one, Url, who are you? Deputy Dog? Barbara? Who are you guys anyway and what are you ashamed of?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 17:23:34 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Anonymity revisited
Message:
Basically most premies have no faith in their own beliefs. They come here for some relatively free expression because they have none among themselves.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:35:23 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Anonymity revisited
Message:
Jethro,

I strongly believe that you're an idiot. How's that for free expression?

DD

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 01:02:39 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Re: Anonymity revisited
Message:
It's a good start. (Catweasal once asked me if I was dyslexic and I told him I was).
When I was an idiot for prempal(i.e. God), I had a wondeful time. I was true to that which I believed. To believe someone is God in human form is no small thing, and to hide it is stiffling. (I know you don't regard yourself as a member of a cult, but you may find it interesting to study the concept of 'divine deception' which is taught by Moonies and Hare Krishnas.....the basic idea is that it ok to lie to someone if it will bring them towards 'the truth').

Now tell us in free expression how it is to follow a person who protects paedophilles in the name of bringing to the world 'the infallible technique of improving human behaviour(hansji circa 1955)'?

I'm still not sure why you(pl) remain anonymous....I can only assume cowardice(which is no worse than idiocy) or that you really don't have belief in yourself.

The people with knowledge who come here really do no service by remaining anonymous.

Still I expect you are one of those people who casually walks by when someone is being raped in broad daylight, believing it is none of your business.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:13:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Cat, you're the biggest coward of all of them
Message:
Cat,

I can barely contain myself imagining what you must tell yourself or your friends about what you're doing here. What in the world do you say? 'Oh, I'm really fucking with them! I've got them all confused, you wouldn't believe it! That'll teach them not to mess with something so goddammed beautiful. And if they are going to mess with it, well, they're going to know that the 'ol Cat's gonna mess with them!'

Cat, you're the biggest, most pitiful joke here. You don't have the character to actually talk straight about anything and you shoot about one for ten in the humour department. You've tried to assail all of us with your sharp sarcasm but it always fails, Cat. Always.

And yet you continue. Some anonymous jerk who stands for nothing and can't even pull that off. The funniest part, I guess, is that you well might be one of those same idiots writing all that cliched drooling shit over on ELK for all we know. Come on, Cat, share a little of your devotional poetry with us, will you? Tell us how you talk to Maharaji for a change. Are you afraid to tell him who you are too?

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 19:10:39 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Cat, you're the biggest coward of all of them
Message:
That's all you can come up with? That's it? You're worth nothing here, Cat. Nothing for nobody. You don't say anything meaningful, insightful or helpful. You offer no real humour and you do absolutely nothing to seriously challenge the ex viewpoints you seem so rattled by. You disclose nothing of your own life, who you are and how you got that way. You're really just a piece of worthless spam, aren't you?

So what do you tell people who ask you what you do on the net? How could yo ever describe the meaninglessness of your involvement here?

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:43:05 (EDT)
From: CT
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Poetry ---
Message:
ON THE POSSIBILITY OF PAT BUCHANAN AS A THIRD-PARTY CANDIDATE

Buchanan hints he's leaving,
The GOP says, 'Stay!'
They fear that he'd be draining
The wacko vote away.

To win they're going mainstream.
The big tent's been OK'd.
To speak of other issues,
Forgetting Roe v. Wade.

But folks who hate what's foreign
And like their neighbors white
Are vital to the party
In any race that's tight.

And therefore all the leaders
Say, 'Pat, let's not lose touch.
We want you in the party,
Just please don't say too much.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 14:30:18 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: CT
Subject: Puke Buchanan
Message:
CT: Jim lives in Canada. They're still sore at us up there about the South Park movie, showing how we kicked their butts over the very important issue of censorship.

Buchanan will stand in my memory forevermore as a Nazi supporter. His recent comments about Hitler and WWII are unforgiveable.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:42:17 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Who are you, Dog? What are you afraid of?
Message:
DD,

The worst thing any critic's ever thrown against this cult has been a cream pie. So tell me, who are you? Why not back up your comments with the credibility of a real person on the line?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:04:17 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: We have nothing to fear but fear itself.
Message:
Jim,

I am Deputy Dog. And behind this outrageous moniker there IS a real person on the line! What difference does it make what I call myself.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. And it's the same with dogs.

Okay, so people do like you more than shp.

DD

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:37:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Honestly? It makes a difference
Message:
Dog,

It makes a difference because this is how people get to know one another, how they communicate. You know, you have a name, a face, a history, friends. You have a reputation and usually some interest in protecting it. Despite whatever workaround you think you can effect, staying anonymous really limits your communication here. The best you've got is a compromise.

Now maybe you'll say the compromise is good enough but again I ask you, why compromise at all? Who else do you talk with on a regular basis anonymously? I bet the answer's 'no one'. Why start here?

Really, Dog, isn't the real problem that you guys can't talk freely. You answer to your cult and its leader and you don't want to risk getting in shit or something. It's pretty obvious isn't it? After all, over on ELK where the in-cult politically correct blathering is censored and safe, everyone uses their own name. That's all that's allowed and you don't hear too many premies griping about it. (Mind you, if they did, we'd never know!) So what's so different here?

I'll tell you what. Premies get drawn into actual discussion here and that's scary in terms of maintaining cult ideology. Premies like Url say Maharaji's not merely human while others say of course he is. I say you guys are all scared to be having this dicussion in front of Maharaji and you know he could well be reading some of this shit.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 23:18:29 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Honestly? It makes a difference
Message:
Jim,

In my posts here I don't talk about me, so I don't see how that can limit my communication. And I talk with a lot of people on a regular basis anonymously. In fact, I'd say most people on the net talk anonymously, chat rooms etc.. It's not so much that I'm afraid of getting in shit it's just that I'd rather not complicate my life.

As far as maintaining cult ideology goes, there is none to maintain. Just meditate and trust the Spirit. That's not much of an ideology. There is no book that needs to be memorized, no concepts except for 'give Knowledge a chance, stay in touch ect.'

No, I choose to remain anonymous and if it's okay with you I'll continue to use an alias. I really should check out ELK one of these days.

Deputised and proud of it.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 10:56:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: Transparent, lame, predictable and wimpy
Message:
.. It's not so much that I'm afraid of getting in shit it's just that I'd rather not complicate my life.

And just how would coming out from the shadows of anonymity 'complicate' your life? You don't think that any exes are going to look you up wherever you are and harrass you, do you? Believe me, Dog, that isn't happening. Chris Dickey's one of the only premies who's had the guts to post under his own name. No one's bugged him (although many, mylsef included, have been extremely bugged by him at times.). Chris has called a few of us once or twice but I don't think anyone's even done so much in return.

Annie posted under her own name. No one harrassed her. In fact, she contacted me at one point by email and we dialogued a bit. She gave ne her number and we talked once or twice. In the end I just found it exasperating and pointless trying to talk to someone with so many new age holes in their bucket and we let it drop. No harrassment. Not even any 'complications'.

Jack Tuff, another old premie friend of mine, came on here in scathing, ugly terms. Acted like a real, pompous jerk. Hypocritical at that. Even still, Jack and I ran into each other one day here in town and went for lunch with our respective gals (great word, eh?). I've certainly never harrassed him since. Mind you, for all I know, you are Jack!

Then there was Shp ... well, all I can say, is, for the sake of the little ones, you know, the witty, bitty, wittow ones, ... anyway, no one's ever bugged him that I know of.

So what's the big 'complication' you're afraid of, premie ji? It ain't from us, is it? Be honest. You don't want to risk the 'complications' you might experience right there in that there cult of yours. That's the truth, isn't it?

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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 18:38:46 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's a fair cop
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 18:54:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Deputy Dog
Subject: What's that mean? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 19:02:16 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Mabe your right (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Oct 10, 1999 at 18:59:02 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Maybe I am a wimp (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 16:27:18 (EDT)
From: Gregg (my real name!)
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Anonymity revisited
Message:
True. It's like a Socialist Workers' Party member chatting on a political forum and using a pseudonym just in case a Party higher-up were to see his name and pass judgement on his opinions as being insufficiently Trotskyist.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:57:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Maharaji's ulcer
Message:
Remember when the Hamster was hospitalized with an ulcer at 15? Remember how problematic that was for him? 'Child guru, Lord of Love, Creator in Human Form, Prince of Peace no less, has stress problem..' Remember how the only way we could make sense of this was by thinking that Maharaji was somehow absorbing our sins for us? You know, like Ramakrishna supposedly did when he so bravely contracted cancer on behalf of his followers?

I thought of this when I was wondering whether or not Maharaji will ever return my calls (I left another message yesterday, this time with his secretary.) I can just picture Maharaji never replying to any of us and letting his premies think that that kind of long-suffering silence is so noble or something. Like Jesus on the cross, you know?

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 03:55:55 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, you're boring!
Message:
Why don't you remember what your master told you ?

So it is a matter of understanding and looking at things in their proper perspective. Because it is the matter of heart. It relates to heart. If somebody wants to lift an elephant by a spoon, is it possible? He cannot do so. Do you understand? A thing which is concerned with the intellect, can be comprehended by it. But if it is beyond intellect, the intellect is totally irrelevant. If you have to experience something, experience it with the heart and not by the intellect. So open up your heart. But that too we do not know, how it is done or what we have to do for it. In that case too we have to pray to the Master - 'Oh Maharaji, please teach me the process to open up my heart.' Not that 'Well, I know.' People often presume that they know it, but actually they don't know. 'So, Maharaji, please let me know the technique to enable me to open this heart. How to understand this process.' Only through his grace a man can derive the bliss of Knowledge, otherwise it is not possible.

He also said in the same satsang,

So far I have not met anybody who is worthy of this Knowledge and worthy of the company of the Master. Nonetheless, from time to time, somebody comes and due to his compassion and mercy he draws out the man from the river, from that current in which they are being swept away. People ask, 'Why does it so happen?' Really, I don't know. I know only this much that he is compassionate. This much I definitely know that he showers his mercy. Why? Not because it is written in books or in any treatise. But because, I have personally experienced it. This is how I know. I am not talking something written, rather I am talking from my own experience. Because he came and saved me. After saving me, in his mercy he further cautioned me not to go very close to that river, lest my feet might slip down. He gave me the requisite warning which I mostly needed.

Why don't you read this satsang? He gave it in 1991, but it's still true, the message is still the same .....

URL, you're loosing your time, he's in his mind.

By the way, what about the bugging of DLM's office? Were you there too? I think so. What's your opinion about it? Some divine lila?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 09:28:38 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Ashrams...Just Curious
Message:
I was just wondering about the practice of Knowledge in the ashram. Sir Dave mentioned below about pranam before and after meditation, does that mean everyone meditated in a common area or was it in one's private room? Also, he said it was done after satsang. I remember going to satsang once or twice in an ashram (the last year they existed) and maybe I blocked it out, but I don't remember anyone prostrating to M's picture afterward. It seems like something that would make a big impression if it did happen. I do, however, remember how BIG the photo of him was.
Also, did anyone ever get kicked out for not following rules?
Just wondering.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:08:56 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Yes
Message:
I think the strictness of enforcing the ashram rules varied from place to place. Yes, there was a schedule; yes, we sang arti morning and night and did group meditation morning and evening. Yes, we pranamed to large pictures and empty chairs quite a lot. The rules were apparently written by Maharaji, or at least approved by him. They were basically poverty, celibacy and obedience, along with vegetarianism, a schedule and some other, more specific stuff.

The rules, which all the ashram premies got, had a letter from M in the introduction. Depending on the time period, there was either a lengthly and difficult, or quite brief and easy, process of getting into the ashram. For awhile, there was an ashram novitiate program, and you had to go live in San Antonio at COLL to see if you made the grade and could be admitted to Maharaji's monastic order in the USA.

The intiators, at least for part of the time, were technically in charge of the ashrams and they toured the country, sometimes harrassing the ashram residents who they thought weren't following the rules strictly enough. Sometimes they met with the ashramites individually, held ashram "meetings" at which the community premies were excluded, etc. Again, there was some variation here, with some initiators, like David Smith, being true Nazis about this, and others being more easy going. Ann Jounston was notorious for being a nazi about ashram cleanliness, appropriate attire, etc. There was usually an ashram housefather who was in charge and took care of the finances and a housemother who did the cooking. The basic premise of the ashram was that you didn't have any ties to anything or anyone and were available to go anywhere and do anything to "serve" the perfect master of our time, whom most of the ashram residents I knew, believed was god incarnate. That's why they were in the ashram instead of doing the things normal human beings do, like getting an education, developing relationships and a family, spending time with their families and friends, doing volunteer political and social work that benefits humanity, and developing careers. In the ashram, despite that fact that most of us were in our early 20s, we did none of that.

Maharaji also held meetings at which only the ashram residents were allowed. One of the purposes of these meetings was so that he could scare the shit out of us about ever leaving ashram, let alone knowledge, no matter how much we might hate living in the ashram. You see, at that time the ashrams were very lucrative for Maharaji. They contributed tons of money to him, since all the ashram premies turned over every cent they made, and they were a pool of slave labor for whatever project for whatever new toy, like airplanes, festival sites, etc., that Maharaji took a whim to. Later, when they weren't so lucrative anymore, he shut them all down.

And, yes, quite a few people were kicked out of the ashrams for not following the rules, failing to hold a job, etc.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:08:49 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Yes?
Message:
Grace

JW has a very jaded picture of ashrams. He clearly didn't enjoy himself there. All well and good -- they were never meant for everyone. My experience was different. It may have been my irreverence for authority going into the ashram, but I never felt bullied by the rules or anybody's interpretation of them. It was an opportunity to learn about devotion.

That's not a new concept really: A sheltered environment where the PRIMARY focus is spiritual. It's been around for longer than 'normal' activities like getting an education, doing volunteer political and social work that benefits humanity, and developing careers. People moved into the ashram because they chose to embrace this focus -- supposedly. People like JW who begrudge the existence of the ashram forget this fact. Instead these people often had ambitious motives for moving in. For example, to get a good position and status. To get out of working. To escape other responsibilities. Most of these people didn't benefit from the environment, and many are the ones who are the most vocal opponents today.

JW's version of history is representative of a man who suffered from his own self-induced repression and lack of honesty. He even alludes that he was somehow coerced into chosing the ashram lifestyle.

No, by the mid '70's everyone was screened before they moved in. This runs contrary to JW's contention that the purpose for the ashrams was to generate money. If you think about it rationally for a minute, if that were the motive everybody would have been encouraged to move in. They clearly were not.

Bottom line is, if you understood what you were doing there it was a wonderful place to learn and grow. If you didn't, it seemed bizarre.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:29:36 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Yes?
Message:
I probably disagree with URL less than he thinks. I agree that the ashrams were about devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji, and all that entailed. They were about that to a much greater degree, however, than any form of 'spiritual development.'

Whether I or anyone felt 'bullied by the rules' or 'had a good time' was not the subject of my post. Like everything else, people experienced those institutions in different ways. I never suggested otherwise. I would also suggest that URL is not omniscient and has no way of knowing what motivated people to move in, whether it was ambition, devotion or insanity. He is, however, free to speak for himself. URL, formerly Nil, has always been willing to impune the motives of other people that he doesn't even know. I think you can see why. Speaking for myself, I moved into the ashram because I wanted to serve the living lord, the incarnation of god, which is what Maharaji portrayed himself to be. If I hadn't believed that, I would never have lived in the ashram, and if he hadn't deceitfully portrayed himself that way, I would have had no reason to believe it.

Regarding my 'self-induced repression' (whatever in the hell that is) and 'lack of honesty' it is again interesting that URL makes those judgments about someone I doubt he have ever even met. He is free to make them, and Grace is free to consider the source of them.

Your history is a little screwed up, URL. The 'screening' regarding moving into the ashram had mostly to do with whether someone had debts. If they did, they weren't allowed to move in, no matter how 'devoted' and desiring of a 'spiritual environment' they were. So much for the implication that there weren't financial considerations in whether someone could move in. And another historical innacuracy is that 'everyone' wasn't encouraged to move in. By 1979 or so, community premies who didn't have kids were virtually harrassed to move into the ashram and many did. I myself participated in these inquisitions with people like Randy Prouty in Washington DC in 1979. Maharaji's 'private' meetings with the ashram premies at festivals, treating them as 'special' premies greatly added to that pressure. Anyone who was around then would be aware of this.

So typical, Nil/URL to say that any naysayers of the Maharaji cult and all his contradictions just never 'understood'. Where have I heard that before? I think it's Jim's premie obfuscation number 5.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 17:44:59 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Yes?
Message:
Your history is a little screwed up, URL. The 'screening' regarding moving into the ashram had mostly to do with whether someone had debts. If they did, they weren't allowed to move in, no matter how 'devoted' and desiring of a 'spiritual environment' they were.

Not so JW. People were asked their motives for moving in, what responsibilities they had -- financially and otherwise -- and generally asked if they were sure this is what they wanted to do. Many were discouraged from moving in. That is a FACT JW.

Another statement of yours that is completely fictitious is that the ashrams were no longer financially viable and that's why they were closed. Tell me, what could be un-viable about eight people pooling their incomes to cover operating expenses, and sending the rest to Elan Vital? There is no way that would ever NOT be viable. The ashrams' focus on service made it one of the financial cornerstones of Maharaji's work. As a matter of fact, after they closed there was a drastic drop in that financial support. If the purpose of the ashram was as you said, contributed tons of money…and…were a pool of slave labor for whatever project for whatever new toy, he would have been a fool to shut them down, and he's not a stupid man.

So, once again JW you're seeing history through the blur of your own disenchantment. And yes after reading the goop you write on this forum for a while now, my impression of you is that while you were a premie you suffered from self-induced repression and lack of honesty. My opinion, I know, but if you tell me it's not true, I'll have to call you a liar.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 11:00:12 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Yes?
Message:
URL I contend you really are screwed up in your history. Maybe you weren't even there? My point was if someone had a debt they weren't allowed to move into the ashram no matter how 'devoted' they were. Obviously, if a resident had a debt to pay, there was less money for Maharaji and his cult so they weren't allowed in. You don't dispute this so I win that one. In all my years as a DLM honcho, I never saw anyone discouraged from moving into the ashram, unless they had kids or had a debt. Some people were told to wait, but, as you know, some real nutcases, indeed extremely unbalanced, even violent, people were allowed to move in, but not if the nutcase had a debt. So the screening you are talking about was pretty hit or miss.

The ashrams were closed because Maharaji started to see them as a financial liability instead of an asset. People who worked closely with the fat guy have confirmed this, including KK. And it isn't too hard to figure out, URL. By the 80s, the ashram residents were mostly in their 30s instead of their early 20s. They had foresaken careers and mostly held low-paying jobs without benefits or pension plans to be monastics and devote their lives to the supposed living god. They were going to need medical care, much of which was ignored for these residents while they were in the ashram, because all the money went to the cult and not for their welfare. Indeed, I never saw a doctor or a dentist the whole 9 years I lived int he ashram. This was typical. They wouldn't have much to support themselves in retirement either. They were going to have a lot of needs that couldn't be put off much longer -- they were becomming a liability and so, in his typical uncaring fashion, Maharaji just dumped all the ashram residents out into the streets, letting them fend for themselves, even though he had told them for years this was to be a life-long commmitment, that they "belonged to him" and they believed they would be taken care of. All the while, Maharaji himself continued to live in obscene luxury.

So, you had a bunch of people in their 30s without skills, education, families, relationships, etc., starting all over again. That is partly why a lot of ex-ashram premies resent Maharaji so much, and there are a lot of them. This is reality, URL, maybe you don't believe it, but I contend you are unable, because of your "understanding" to look at Maharaji objectively in any way. I contend you are unable to criticize him in any way. This is a basic premise of a cult. Once you get out of it, that skill will hopefully return to you. It did for me.

Stop the psycholbable URL, it makes you sound even more stupid than your post. Anyone who was around then knows you are revising history with rose-colored glasses to try to hold your cult programming together. It's really rather sad. When you start thinking for yourself, you might see this.

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 15:48:25 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Re: Yes?
Message:
Obviously, if a resident had a debt to pay, there was less money for Maharaji and his cult so they weren't allowed in. You don't dispute this so I win that one. In all my years as a DLM honcho, I never saw anyone discouraged from moving into the ashram, unless they had kids or had a debt.

Maybe you could be a lttle less concerned with winning and a little more with getting to the facts. In my two years as a honcho I saw a number of people who were asked to wait. Some of these moved into 'premie houses', others complained. Some eventually moved in, others never did. And yes pal, I really was there. And of course, if somebody had a debt they should have paid it off first. Why should the other people in the house be saddled with the applicant's debt-load. Come on JW, that's just common courtesy.

As for your 'explanation' for the long term financially based strategy for closing the ashram: That's your spin JW, and that's all it is. And your spin is very predictable. As one who was in ashram at the time and moved out to start a new life when they closed, it was an incredible chapter. I grew a hell of a lot, understood a hell of a lot more about Knowledge and where it fit into my life, and appreciated a hell of a lot the grounding I had while in the ashram. And I know there are many who expereinced a similar growth. So maybe -- just maybe -- it was done with the best interests of the premies in mind, and not the jaded, anger induced spin of a repressed individual who couldn't get his own shit together.

Stop the psycholbable URL, it makes you sound even more stupid than your post.

You don't like 'psycho-babble'. Can you understand this:

You are an anally constricted suck who'll never get around to addressing the real problems in his life because he's too busy whining about it.

Anyone who was around then knows you are revising history with rose-colored glasses to try to hold your cult programming together.

Anyone?! Come on JW, that is bullshit and TRUE revisionism -- and you know it. You and I both know a lot of people who were 'around then' who have a completely opposite opinion to yours. Stop giving me the gears asshole -- I'm on to you.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:16:44 (EDT)
From: S. Freud
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Lingua Franca
Message:
The nature of repression is that it's self-induced, therefore 'self-induced repression' is redundant. Other-induced repression is called suppression. Uf you want to inflict an ad hominem attack upon a fellow forum-ite, at least use the correct lingo.

Sigmund 'Anal' Freud

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 11:43:27 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: The 'experience' of sleep
Message:
Is that the rules were known and made clear to every resident, I think you had at least one or a few meetings with the ashrams' coordinators, sometimes not, before moving into the ashram.

I've been ashram secretary for quite some years. We had regular meetings, at least once a month, with all the residents, and used to talk about various issues, schedule, meals, money etc.

The trend was not to insist so much about discipline. Some ashram premies would always 'share their experience' about 'how beautiful it was to wake up early, have arti and meditate before going out'.

You HAD TO come for arti and meditate. Otherwise there was something wrong, and you had to have an interview with the ashram secretary.

My feeling is that some of us were really devoted and would never miss anything, but that was a minority.
The rest was motivated by fear, or doing it because Rawat was asking.

Remember: meditation was/is a very boring exercise most of the time for most of the premies....and was usually a constant struggle not to fall asleep.

By the end of the meditation time, you'd count the corpses on the floor! That was fun.

My feeling also is that many used to 'meditate' in their room for some 'reason', mainly to hide their sleep....

I did quite often, like everybody else. And used to feel guilty about it.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 12:21:56 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: The 'experience' of sleep
Message:
Yeah, we all 'meditated' together in one big room. And yeah, there were plenty of premies who could sleep propped up on their barrogans, nice and cozy under their blankets.

And yeah baby did we pranam. Before, after, whenever. It must have seemed damn strange to outsiders.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 12:46:38 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Samadhi every day!
Message:
That was a good one too!

Nobody would dare wake you up ..... in case you were in samadhi....

Lots of premies were into samadhi at that time !!!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:59:58 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Thanks for the answers
Message:
I think it would really weird me out to pranam to Maharaji's picture, of course the thought of kissing his feet blows me away, too, I don't think I could do it. Plus, if I thought he really was God incarnate, I would feel ripped off if he had socks on and I was just kissing fabric instead of God's skin.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:18:00 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Re: Thanks for the answers
Message:
A rather confusing response Grace.

What is it that 'blows you away'?

Kissing his feet? Or kissing his feet with socks on?

JSCA

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:26:05 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Kissing Feet
Message:
Sorry for the confusion, Joey, I guess because I never considered M God I couldn't imagine kissing his feet. I always thought of him as an extremely wise soul who gave me the gift of meditation techniques and loved him for it, but maybe not in a way that I could kiss his feet. Maybe it's just a cultural thing, it seems too far out of the realm of what I'm used to to feel comfortable doing.
If I did consider him God, I would want to touch him in any way I could and fabric blocking that touch would just frustrate me (socks).
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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 01:46:27 (EDT)
From: Joey
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: He can kiss my ass!
Message:
Grace,

You said:

I always thought of him as an extremely wise soul who gave me the gift of meditation techniques and loved him for it, but maybe not in a way that I could kiss his feet.

That was a good one BTW...'gift of meditation techniques' and NOT 'gift of knowledge'...nice touch, Gracey pooh:::))

In any case, when I think of all the times I kissed those pudgy feet of that slimy fat fuck who gave me all those 'gifts'...the 'gift' of those ripped off meditation techniques, the 'gift' of the ashram, the 'gift' of Fakiranand and Jagdeo, the 'gift' of David Smith and Ann Johnston, the gift of Chuck Nathan and Amtext....well, I feel like puking.

I guess what I'm really wondering here is, how you could you even consider the possibilty of considering him God, as in:

If I did consider him God, I would want to touch him in any way I could and fabric blocking that touch would just frustrate me (socks).
(Yes, unfortunately he does wear socks sometimes, and oh, how all the gopis must suffer!)

Personally speaking, I wouldn't even want to touch him with a ten foot pole...even if he was God.

Because if thats what God is all about, then instead of me kissing his feet(socks on or not)...he can kiss my ass!

Good night Gracey:::))

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:06:15 (EDT)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Joey
Subject: Re: He can kiss my ass!
Message:
Hey Joe,

You have to get in line pal, the big M is currently busy kissing MY arse. (BTW that's English for ass!)

regards

Richard

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:52:05 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Re: He can kiss my ass!
Message:
He has had lots of practice. He has been kissing the asses of really rich people for a long, long time. He doesn't keep himself in gold toilets and Rolls Royces by just having his feet kissed, you know!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 08:16:59 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Another myth bites the dust (OT)
Message:
Here's an interesting article I read in the NY Times today about the myth of willpower. So give yourself some slack the next time you chow down on that second piece of chocolate cake. It's not because you lack character. According to Dr. Lowe, it's just because you're trying to execise something that nobody has, willpower.

Scientists Unmask Diet Myth: Willpower

By JANE FRITSCH

A thin person, the kind who has always been thin, is confronted by a
chocolate cake with dark fudge icing and chopped pecans.
Unmoved, he goes about his business as if nothing has happened.

A fat person, the kind who has always struggled with weight, is
confronted by the same cake. He feels a little surge of adrenaline. He
cuts a slice and eats it. Then he eats another, and feels guilty for the rest
of the day.

The simplest -- and most judgmental -- explanation for the difference in
behavior is willpower. Some people seem to have it but others do not,
and the common wisdom is that they ought to get some.

But to weight-loss researchers, willpower is an outdated and largely
discredited concept, about as relevant to dieting as cod liver oil. And
many question whether there is such a thing as willpower.

'There is no magical stuff inside of you called willpower that should
somehow override nature,' said Dr. James C. Rosen, a professor of
psychology at the University of Vermont. 'It's a metaphor that most
chronically overweight dieters buy into.'

To attribute dieting success or failure to willpower, researchers say, is to
ignore the complex interaction of brain chemicals, behavioral
conditioning, hormones, heredity and the powerful influence of habits.
Telling an overweight person to use willpower is, in many ways, like
telling a clinically depressed person to 'snap out of it.'

It is possible, of course, to recover from depression and to lose weight,
but neither is likely to happen simply because a person wills it to be so,
researchers say. There must be some intervention, either chemical or
psychological.

The study of weight loss began in earnest in the early 1950's, a time when
doctors and nutritionists treated overweight people by telling them to eat
less and sending them on their way.

'Willpower was a kind of all-embracing theory that was used all the time
to make doctors feel good and make patients feel bad,' said Dr. Albert
Stunkard, a professor of psychiatry at the University of Pennsylvania who
has been studying weight loss for five decades.

'Most people think that willpower is just a pejorative way of describing
your failures,' he said. 'Willpower really doesn't have any meaning.'

The role of willpower in weight loss was a major issue among scientists
about 30 years ago, when the behavior modification movement began,
Dr. Stunkard said. Until then, the existence -- and importance -- of
willpower had been an article of faith on which most diets were founded,
he said.

The behavior modification approach had its roots in a 1967 study called
'Behavioral Control of Overeating,' which tried to analyze the elements
of 'self-control' and apply them to weight loss. The study, by Richard B.
Stuart of the University of Michigan, showed that eight overweight
women treated with behavior modification techniques lost from 26 to 47
pounds over a year. They had frequent sessions with a therapist and
recorded their food intake and moods in diaries. And the therapists
helped them develop lists of alternatives to eating, like reading a
newspaper or calling a friend. One cultivated an interest in caged birds;
another grew violets.

'No effort is made to distinguish the historical antecedents of the problem
and no assumptions are made about the personality of the overeater,'
Mr. Stuart wrote in his article, published in the journal Behavioral
Research and Therapy.

After that, the focus of weight loss programs shifted toward behavioral
steps a dieter takes regarding eating, said Dr. Michael R. Lowe, a
professor of clinical psychology at the MCP Hahnemann University in
Philadelphia, and away from 'something you search for within.'

Behavior modification is now the most widely accepted approach to
long-term weight loss. Practically, that means changing eating habits --
and making new habits -- by performing new behaviors. Most programs
now recommend things like pausing before eating to write down what is
about to be eaten, keeping a journal describing a mood just before eating
and eating before a trip to the grocery store to head off impulse buying.

There is also mounting evidence that behavior affects the chemical
balance in the brain, and vice versa. Drugs like fenfluramine, half of the
now-banned fen-phen combination, reduced a dieter's interest in eating,
thereby making willpower either irrelevant or seemingly available in pill
form. And Dr. Stunkard has just completed a study that showed that
people with 'night-eating syndrome' -- who overeat in the late evening,
have trouble sleeping and get up in the middle of the night to eat -- have
lower-than-normal levels of the hormones melatonin, leptin and cortisol in
their blood.

Still, to deny the importance of willpower is to attack a fundamental
notion about human character.

'The concept of willpower is something that is very widely embedded in
our view of ourselves,' said Dr. Lowe of MCP Hahnemann University.
'It is a major explanatory mechanism that people use to account for
behavior.'

But Dr. Lowe said he and others viewed willpower as 'essentially an
explanatory fiction.' Saying that someone lacks willpower 'leaves people
with the sense they understand why the behavior occurred, when in
reality all they've done is label the behavior, not explain it,' he said.

'Willpower as an independent cause of behavior is a myth,' Dr. Lowe
said. In his clinical practice, he takes a behavioral approach to weight
control. In part, that involves counseling dieters to take a more positive
attitude about their ability to lose weight. It also involves some practical
steps. 'Most importantly,' he said, 'you need to learn what behavioral
steps you can take before you get in the situation where you're in the
chair in front of the television with a bowl of potato chips.'

And, he said, it is important for dieters to keep in mind that there are
formidable forces working against them and their so-called willpower.
'We live in about the most toxic environment for weight control that you
can imagine,' Dr. Lowe said. 'There is ready, easy availability of high-fat,
high-calorie fast foods that are relatively affordable, combined with the
fact that our society has become about as sedentary as a society can be.'

Not all experts, however, reject the notion of willpower. Dr. Kelly D.
Brownell, director of the Yale Center for Eating and Weight Disorders,
said that this was the most difficult time in history for dieters, and that it
would be a mistake to dismiss the concept of willpower. 'A person's
ability to control their eating varies over time, and you cannot attribute
that to biology,' he said.

'There's a collective public loss of willpower because of this terrible food
environment that challenges us beyond what we can tolerate,' Dr.
Brownell said. 'One needs much more willpower now than ever before
just to stay even.'

All the temptations notwithstanding, thousands of people find a way to
lose weight and keep it off, a fact demonstrated by the National Weight
Control Registry, a research project that keeps tabs on people who have
lost at least 30 pounds and kept the weight off for more than a year.

' A lot of times in weight loss programs patients will say to me that they
need to learn to be able to live with an apple pie in the refrigerator and
not eat it,' said Dr. Rena Wing, a professor of psychiatry at the
University of Pittsburgh and the Brown University School of Medicine,
who is collaborating on the registry project. Most behaviorists think
dieters should instead arrange their lives so that they rarely have to
confront such temptations.

'If I were to put an apple pie in front of everybody every minute of the
day, I could probably break down everybody's quote-unquote
willpower,' she said. 'We really are trying to get away from this notion of
willpower. If you make certain plans, you will be able to engineer your
behavior in such a way that you will look as if you have willpower.'

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 20:43:07 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: So that's why?
Message:
That explains why the burning desire to surrender our lives to K and MJ quickly vanished after the endorphin high wore off. The intense programming disappeared and so did our lust for the lotus feet. Do you think anyone ever duped themselves so much that they had an orgasm while pranaming to the tender tootsies?
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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 06:51:46 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Gail
Subject: Re: So that's why?
Message:
Dear Gail,
How the hell are you!? :) I was wondering why I chose now to stop by here, haven't been here at all for a week or so I think and I am supposed to be getting ready for work. I went to read Jerry's post, not enough time but looked interesting, I'll read that later but then I saw your name. You have been in my thoughts. Hope you are well.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:19:43 (EDT)
From: Gail
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Re: So that's why?
Message:
Thanks sweetie. You too!
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 20:14:53 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Premie purgatory (neti neti)
Message:
In a post below I suggested that Url read The Guru Papers. Here's his thought ful reply:

That's the second time in two posts to me you've deferred your argument to some third party treatise, and have not provided any relevance of your own to the discussion. Now THAT's pretty revealing. Getting lazy, or is it just no original ideas of your own?

You see Jim, I don't give a flying fuck what the author of guru papers wrote. Theories, ideas, generalities, a vehicle to get their Ph.D., all set to a perspective that affords a safe, clinical distance. A safe distance is imperative because if they got close enough to detect any truth in say one of the so-called 'cults' that they studied, their theories would have a serious challenge. If the author wants to climb into the trenches of my life with me and then offer his advice, fine -- I may take the time to listen. Otherwise, who gives a shit.

And yes I am desperate for one thing -- to be happy. Why aren't you?

Well, Url, last things first, I think I AM happy, thanks very much.

But, anyway, your first point seems to, yet again, leave you in the lurch. You say that you don't give a damn what this author or that has to say about anything, it's not direct enough. You want life, right? The real thing.

What's so funny about that attitude coming from premies of all people is that you guys refrain entirely from cozying up to your own chosen fire. When was the last time yo actualyl spoke to Maharaji? Here, I'm going to try it again right now. Hold on a sec....

Well, what do you know? Got his secretary. Left my name and number again.

But tell me, Url, when was the last time you ever talked with the guy instead of nodded like an idiot in front of a video of his? Where's your real gusto for getting up-close and personal with life?

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 20:45:17 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And your point is.......
Message:
Forgive me. I may be slow on the uptake but, what's your point?

Well, Url, last things first, I think I AM happy, thanks very much.

You don't sound too sure Jim. Are you, or do you think you are?

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 20:53:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Really? You honestly need me to spell it out for you?
Message:
Url,

My point is this: you guys eschew book lernin' in favour of some mythical 'real life' understanding. For that, you look no further than your 'Master'. Yet, when it comes down to it, you can't get close to him either. You're nowhere, bud. Stuck in videoland.

And 'happiness'? Measured against what standard? Are you happy? Is Maharaji? How much? All the time?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 03:14:24 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, have you completely forgotten?
Message:
Jim,

The olde You don't sound too sure Jim. Are you, or do you think you are? in reference to being happy is the ancient, living in the past standard premie opening line to get their foot into your door.

Don't you remember? Everywhere we went we would look for the opportunity to really nail somebody and ask them if they were satisfied, fulfilled, happy, whatever you wanna call it. And we did it in a condescendingly-I-know-the-secret-the-true-way-I-am-in-contact-with-the-Lord-of-the-Universe tone. And it was best to catch the normie off guard in a weak moment and try to rub it in, hit 'em on the head with the hammer and THEN offer them that beautiful solution, that beautiful experience, that, that indescribible thing that doesn't need books or a college degree to understand.

Ok, maybe I was a little sadistic. After all I really didn't have much of a life. Didn't have a job, a career, a car, a house, a girlfriend or a wife, gave up my family, had no money, was mostly celibate, didn't really go on regular vacations, rarely held a job for more that a month or two. Sat around every evening listening to idiots say, 'You know, you know and it's so, so, so beautiful, that experience, need to surrender more...'

Oh, Jim, you are just too worldly, too intellectual to understand such a beautiful, beautiful thing.

Perhaps, a partial lobotomy will help you understand what Maharaji's Knowledge is about.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:55:25 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: What I forgot is that Raja Ji asked me that same question
Message:
When I spoke up at Raja Ji's fund-raising program in the mid eighties and demanded some explanation as to who these guys thought they were being that I'd lived as a monastic monk for eight years in hopes of merging with his younger brother, Raja Ji asked me the same question. 'Well, were you happy?'

'That's beside the point' I answered. 'I was there because I was told your brother was the Lord! It wasn't about being 'happy' so much as it was about walking the path of devotion and surrender. Besides, what do I have to compare those years to? They were pretty well my whole twenties (asshole!).'

He backed off. It was then that I knew I had the crowd with me, nervous titters and all.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 13:57:30 (EDT)
From: Mahatma Vishuwerashighasmee
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: Re: Jim, have you completely forgotten?
Message:
My bruddirs and sistirs,

You say,

Perhaps, a partial lobotomy will help you understand what Maharaji's Knowledge is about

But I say,

Do you want parcel devohssen to your Guru Maharaj, or do you want tohtel devohssen to your Guru Maharaj? Hmm? Hmm??

Derfor, to really understand your Guru Maharaj, and to be as high as Mahatmaji...you need FOOL LOBOTOMEE.

Den and only den, will you be as high as me.

JSCA my bruddirs and sistirs, and remember, I am

Mahatma Vishuwerashighasmee,

and I really do,
vishuwerashighasmee

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:13:00 (EDT)
From: Mahatma Vishuwerashighasmee
Email: None
To: Mahatma Vishuwerashighasmee
Subject: And also, you must remember...
Message:
a hint should be enough for a wise man

Again, I am,

Mahatma Vishuwerashighasmee,

and I really do
vishuwerashighasmee::::))

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 13:05:29 (EDT)
From: Mahatman Offanand
Email: None
To: Mahatma Vishuwerashighasmee
Subject: Very Definitely
Message:
Oh my dear brothers and sisters, you are so beautiful because of divine grace of Maharaj. But if you are mahatma you can definitely give hint and stupid premies will think how beautiful without question. And Mahararji is also so stupid he cannot understand mahatma. I remember I went with Maharaj to see one movie and he hated that movie. He could not understand story and stuffed his face only. He even five boxes bon bons and these all things. But Maharaji is living god and I am mahatma only by the grace of guru.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 09:36:15 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Roger eDrek
Subject: to Barney (ot)
Message:
I caught the part about 'mostly' celebate, shame on you!
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 14:46:45 (EDT)
From: Roger eDrek
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: At least I was monogamous
Message:
Well, I only dated Mary Five-Fingers. Was that the reason Knowledge never worked for me?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 09:37:20 (EDT)
From: Grace
Email: None
To: Grace
Subject: Oops, I mean Roger (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 21:22:36 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Really? You honestly need me to spell it out for you?
Message:
...you guys eschew book lernin' in favour of some mythical 'real life' understanding.

It ain't mythical if you truly realise it for yourself. I don't look to the master for that, I look to myself. On the other hand, if you book-learn someone elses realisation without realising it yourself, you ain't learned nothin'.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 19:54:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What about this, Barb? Hm?
Message:
In a post below, Barb offered what she considers her strongest argument in distinguishing Maharaji (peaceful) from Jim Jones (violent):

Can YOU cop to the vast difference between someone whose most violent act is spraying people he loves with colored water, much to their pleasure, and a man who orders his followers to drink cyanide-laced Kool-aid and kills them? Are you capable of even THAT degree of fairness?

Barb, it's time to revisit this issue, I believe. Were you a premie when the family split? Do you know anything about what happened to Bhole Ji and Blue Aquarius? I've spoken to two fellows who wee there at the time (one of whom actually posted a Journey that mentioned this period). Apparently, Raja Ji and some 'WPC' hacks showed up with guns at Bhole Ji's residence/recording studio and started roughing people up a bit. (A bit? A lot? Who knows? If you want the real details, ask Raja Ji.) Anyway, the band members were shaken up and scared enough that they all split immediately. Of course that was Raja Ji's plan, to threaten and intimidate these guys harshly enough that they truly would become a 'Band on the Run' which, apparently, was the inside joke circulating about them after this incident.

Okay, so let's talk. Typical premie, you're going to probably start by saying this is nothing but unsubstantiated heresay, blah, blah, blah. 'Where's the video?' Right? Not enough proof to warrant taking your head out of the sand, right? That will be your first comment. That was the first thing premies threw at the premies who alleged that Jagdeo had molested them. Brother Mili, for example, called her a stupid liar and said that, if it did happen, she was probably asking for it, or something to that effect.

But, let's move on. Say we put together a reasonable case that this actually did happen. What's next? Well, you'll then try to distinguish 'rogue' Raja Ji from his divine younger brother. Right? Yes, of course you will.

Then, if that fails, you'll probably move on to minimizing the event itself. Talk about how isolated it was, how long ago, all that kind of stuff.

Barb, get real. A cult is a cult is a cult is a cult. You know those two little cherubic-looking cult leaders that took over from Muktananda? Guru Mayi and her brother? When I was still living in L.A. I spent considerable time with friends of the brother who explained in detail how his divine sister had sent thugs over to his place to -- surprise, surprise -- beat the shit out of him and scare him out of town. Sound familiar? It's not that Guru Mayi is particularly evil or violence-prone. I'm not saying Raja Ji is either (despite his sick efforts to play himself up that way, albeit somewhat subtly, back when he was trying to impress who-knows-what-chick with his macho-divine-incarnation trip).

I'm just saying that the old cliche about absolute power is true.

Consider the Japanese death cult, Aum whatever. This guy was just a fat, partially-blind new age flim flam man who worked out of a health food store for years. A natural proclivity to kill and maim, en masse no less? Fuhgetaboutit! But he gets used to a certain level of power and control and, as we've seen over and over again, moves to protect his turf when he feels threatened.

Hell, look at Marshall Applewhite for the ultimate cautionary tale on thinking any cult leader's too much of a weenie to really threaten anyone's safety.

So, you know, Maharaji gets into a nasty fight with his family and suddenly it ain't all peace, love and understanding. Did you ever wonder why he actually litigated that ungodly case in court with his brother if he was in such a beautiful 'trusting' place? Think about it, Barb. Think about it. It's all turf protection and power plays. Took an Indian judge to shame both Prempal and Satpal to force them to settle.

So, don't give me this shit that Maharaji is inherently more peaceful than Jones. It's all situational and the main situation, the one that isn't hypothetical, is that this guy runs a cult and you, unfortunately, are in it.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:19:41 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: God you're full of shit!!
Message:
Funny thing Jim, I've NEVER seen guns at all in my years of being involved, at all levels. And believe me if there had have been I would have seen them. Seems strange that they could have been hidded so well.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:31:56 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Really, Url?
Message:
Url,

If you were there you can tell us what happened. Well? Were you? Were you familiar with the joke about Blue Aquarius turning into 'Band on the Run'? What was that joke all about, Url?

And, by the way, are you saying that neither Raja Ji nor any of his hacks ever had guns?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 17:48:59 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Really, Url?
Message:
Were you there Jim?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 18:09:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Really, Url?
Message:
No, Url, I wasn't. I thought I'd made that point clearly enough in my initial post. Anyway, I'm asnwering your question but you're avoiding mine. Well?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 19:25:58 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Really, Url?
Message:
So you weren't there. Then why the fuck do you have something so outrageous and inciteful to say, as if you were there? I point out once again the unsubstantiated nature of the information regularly passed off as fact on this forum. You exemplify the level of sliminess and dishonesty that is pervasive here. You're a disgusting worm Jim but hey, you're a lawyer.

No, I wasn't there and neither were you. So let's make a deal, shall we? I'll talk about what I know, and how about you do the same.

And, by the way, are you saying that neither Raja Ji nor any of his hacks ever had guns?

I said 'I've NEVER seen guns at all in my years of being involved, at all levels'. Are you saying they did?

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 20:16:26 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: This is getting funny, Url ... sorry, MR. Url
Message:
Url,

Before I discuss this with you any further, may I ask you something? Do you even care if Raja Ji and his goons beat up his fat, dimwit brother (a/k/a Shiva, Lord of Music)? Let's say I could provide you with some eyewitnesses. Would you really give a shit?

Url, like I said at the start, I've spoken with someone who was there and, if I'm not mistaken, his Journey confirms that. John someone, I think. Too bad ex-premie.org is down now; I'd love to show you. But, again Url, I think it's a fair question: what would you think if it were true? Besides, you claim that you were around so much. Why won't you answer my question about Bhole Ji. Did you or didn't you hear anything about Raja Ji and friends roughing up the band? Did you hear that they split L.A. in fear and were joked about as the real 'Band on the run'? These are simple questions, Url, even for a non-lawyer like yourself.

But speaking of worms, Url, when I first mentioned the guns you said this:

Funny thing Jim, I've NEVER seen guns at all in my years of being involved, at all levels. And believe me if there had have been I would have seen them. Seems strange that they could have been hidded [sic] so well. (my emphasis)

But when I ask you if Raja Ji or his goons ever had guns you retreat to:

I said 'I've NEVER seen guns at all in my years of being involved, at all levels'. Are you saying they did?

What happened to the other part, Url? The part where you assure me that you'd have known if he did? Do you still stand by that or not? If not, why not say so frankly instead of just leaving it out there to mislead? Oh, I know, it's because you're not a lawyer or something.

Asshole...

Anyway, this is all such predictable premie garbage. You weren't there and you don't want to know. See-no-evil, hear-no-evil and what not. You are acting like an asshole, Url. You might not be one generally but when it comes to protecting your master, I got news for you: you are.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 20:43:09 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Yeah, funny watching you squirm
Message:
Don't confuse the issue Jim. I didn't consciously omit anything to cover up anything. My previous statement is there in black and yellow so there's no need to try and squeeze an argument out of it. My point is that if guns were the norm, I would have known about it. Having never seen a gun anywhere over a quarter century of involvement, I can only express disbelief in such a wild-assed claim.

So asshole, you point out to me that I wasn't there, and I point out to you that neither were you. So neither of us are in a position to comment about this 'situation' you raise. What do you know about John such that you can vouch for his credibility? Yet you have no problem relying upon his 'eyewitness account'. Tell me, if you were to be held accountable for his statement -- as you should be having made the claims you did -- would you accept liability for it? No fucking way, you wouldn't expose your ass based on some John's say-so, no way.

So what are we left with Jim? Same old shit -- a load of speculative innuendo that supposedly happened over a quarter century ago, put forward by a slimy and biased asshole attorney who squirms into lawyer mode when he starts top get pinned down. You're such a worm.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 21:28:22 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Don't talk to me about accountability, Mr. Url, sir
Message:
Tell me, if you were to be held accountable for his statement -- as you should be having made the claims you did -- would you accept liability for it? No fucking way, you wouldn't expose your ass based on some John's say-so, no way.

May I remind you, bud, that you're just some anonymous flake who's too afraid to use your real name here. You're a nothing, here, Url and that's probably just the way you want it. Anything more real might get you in trouble with your cult, no? So don't give me this shit; you've got no standing really to say anything.

Now, as far as hearsay goes, first of all, it's hearsay if I tell you what X, who claims to have been there himself, said happened. It's not hearsay for X to tell his story. In this case, I'm relying on X's own account to me; that makes it hearsay to you but, as I know I'm not lying, you can go fuck yourself for all I care. (How's that for a lazy argument?)

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Date: Fri, Oct 08, 1999 at 15:53:08 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Don't talk to me about accountability, Mr. Url, sir
Message:
Pretty fucking lame! And like I asked you before which you didn't answer: If you were to be held accountable and liable for John's "account", would you be prepared to put you ass on the line based upon his word? No really, if your your house or your business was potentially exposed through a liable suit. Would you be so glib about accepting someone's account who you don't even know, if your ass could be sued for liable?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 02:34:21 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: What about this, Barb? Hm?
Message:
Lets not forget that right after Jonestown the Denver 'community' was called to the community center and we were given 'help and guidance' in the way of 'language' and 'facts' in dealing with our families so they would know we weren't in that kind of situation.

If we weren't in that kind of situation why would it need to be explained? Why would we need to be told how to talk to our relatives?

Another 70's mass hysteria of people that didn't 'understand' M? Oh wait it was DLM not EV and lets see Glen says EV is not DLM.
It was Mike donner by the way who helped "guide" us that nite.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 21:01:04 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Correcting injustice
Message:
Jim: Good post. I have some more to add on this topic.

I had just finished law school and passed the Bar in 1980 when Larry Layton was returned from jail in Guyana to stand trial in federal court in San Francisco for conspiring to murder Congressman Leo Ryan and for conspiring to murder a Richard Dwyer, an embassy official in Guyana, who accompanied Ryan into Jonestown. Larry never killed anyone -- he was in a small plane that was about to leave the jungle airstrip with a couple of other PT members who had asked to leave with Ryan when he offered to take out anyone who wanted to leave. A group of men came on a truck from Jonestown and opened fire on the people on the airstrip. Larry shot at the two people in his plane and injured them, but not fatally. The prosecution theory was that Larry was in a conspiracy with the guys who opened fire on the airstrip. The shooters all returned to Jonestown and committed suicide. Larry was not taken back with them, and was arrested on the airstrip.

During the late '70's, I was very involved in political work with the American Indian Movement. Peoples Temple was a political force in San Francisco and California, and had supported various AIM issues and events. PT could be counted on to show up with a large amount of people to support an event. In fact, people like First Lady Rosalyn Carter, California Governor Jerry Brown, the Mayor of San Francisco, and other liberal luminaries, could be found attending church services at PT and addressing the congregation. So much for Barbara's dismissal of PT members as 'small, short-term, sadly unconscious, pathetic, and one-dimensional group of masochistic misfits'. As I said below, PT started in the late '50's in Indiana, and had a large, multi-cultural membership. Anyway, I also got hired because I had some limited exposure to the group during my political organizing days and because of my prior involvement with DLM.

I was just out of the cult 4 years when I started working on the case. At that time, I did not care about Rawat one way or the other. I had left DLM and that was it. I thought my experience might have some relevance, but not a whole lot. I was wrong and I was shocked. I learned everything there was to know about Jim Jones and Peoples Temple -- who he was, where he came from, how the church was started and how the congregation was formed. PT was started by Jones in Indianapolis as a civil rights congregation in order to bring together black and white poor families in Indianapolis. It was a resounding success. After about 10 years in Indianapolis, Jones moved PT to a rural area in northern California, and then to San Francisco. The church's liberal and civil rights focus, and its diverse membership, brought in many young people who wanted to make a difference in the world -- vets, civil rights workers, poverty workers, lawyers, doctors, social workers, and many young white and black San Franciscans eager to change society for the better.

I reviewed tens of thousands of pages of documents about PT and its members. I watched slide shows, saw photos and movies, and read press accounts. I spoke to survivors who escaped from the suicide and the shoot out at the airstrip, and to others who had never been sent to Jonestown. I listened to and read transcripts of hundreds of hours of tape recordings of Jones talking to PT members. I spoke to people who had been members of PT and had left the church because they were concerned that Jones was mentally unstable. Jones and PT launched a vicious public attack on those who left and who tried to alert the public about their concerns. They were called traitors.

Jones was addressed as 'Father'. He was God to his followers. When I listened to the tapes of him talking, and interviewed former PT members about him, I came to the chilling realization that the whole thing sounded just like Rawat and DLM. The former PT members were exactly the same kind of people premies were, and joined for identical reasons. I remembered the mahatmas demand to know if we would leave our families, cut off our arms, or give everything we owned to M, in order to receive K. The similarities are legion. Perhaps I'll do a longer post with every single detail another time. This experience made me realize just how twisted premies became due to the unquestioning devotion Rawat demanded. No, he did not tell us to drink cyanide, but he did order us to extinguish other parts of our lives in deference to him. For those who did it for 25 years, it is painfully difficult to piece together the shards of their family, emotional and work lives which were sacrificed to the altar of Rawat's arrogance and selfishness.

Rawat and Jones had the same message, demanded the same devotion, and promised the same rewards. Those in Jonestown are dead; those who gave all to M and were deceived and mistreated, must reconstruct themselves from being the walking dead. That injustice is why I speak out so passionately in their defense here.

Marianne

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:28:46 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: And so are you!
Message:
These are arguments strung together by paranoia. There is ZERO justification for mentioning Maharaji in the same breath as Jones. I would like you to present one substatiated fact that demonstrates Maharaji has a propensity for violence. None of this reference to guns bullshit, or the psycho-social maladjustment of a handful of 'perennial victims' like yourself. I mean when has Maharaji in 30 years advocated physical harm to his followers, or his detractors?
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 17:40:43 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: URL: Here is an example
Message:
'I mean when has Maharaji in 30 years advocated physical harm to his followers, or his detractors? '

He broke Gary Gerrard's nose with a stick.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 23:36:24 (EDT)
From: Susan
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Best of Forum? (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:35:42 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: Susan
Subject: Similarities between cults
Message:
Yeah!!

I think it’s really interesting to find out about other cults, because, as Marianne says, they always turn out to have so many extraordinary similarities.

As I've mentioned in my Journey and elsewhere, after I got out in 1983 I became a sort of therapist/counselor, and most of my first clients were premies and instructors. I WISH I didn't have the boundaries of total confidentiality that prevent me from telling some of the stuff I know that might distinguish these former clients, but believe me, it was chilling! Anyway, after I got good at the “exit counseling” I started attracting people from other cults. So I got to work with people from almost all the gurus I had ever heard of, and some that I hadn’t. YOU WOULDN”T BELIEVE THE SIMILARITIES between our ex-Lord and other teachers, and between the kinds of stuff that happens around them. I was also privy to gory details of Nityananda being attacked by Guru Mayi’s heavies by someone who was there (I wonder if it was the same person?), although I didn't know about Raja and Bhole Ji until Jim’s post. Talking of Siddha Yoga, which has lots of good aspects, there is a post somewhere in cyberspace from a group of former Siddha Yogis spilling all kinds of beans and saying why they left, and why they are anonymous. I think if you punch on “ex-cult” you can find it, or on one of the links from this page.

If anyone is interested in exploring the similarities between our experience as premies, and those of people in other groups that we might (still) feel were far inferior to our group I highly recommend the following books: LIFE 102: WHAT TO DO IF YOUR GURU SUES YOU, by Peter Williams, which will shiver your timbers with recognition. The guru John Rogers even looks like MJ and has a similar rambling form of satsang (catch him on public access cable). IN THE SHADOW OF THE MOONS by somebody or other who was forced to marry one of the Moons violent sons is also wonderful, with a whole Holy Family scenario that is the same kind of soap opera you love to hate. You will laugh and cry with recognition at a lot of the stuff. There is also a really good book I read about Rajneesh, but I can’t remember the name of it.

Having said which, the whole thing is absolutely not black and white for me. I said somewhere else on a brilliant post that no one responded to that I don’t feel that the word “cult” means very much, and is definitely not a condemnation per se. We live in a gigantic consensus cult with a few levels: one level is just good old consensus reality, Western style, which lots of indigenous people might think pretty strange, except that they’re being programmed into it as we speak. Another level of culthood is good ole judeo-christiano-muslimo religious memes that are the invisible backbone of what we think are our own thoughts. And then there is the level of the reality acoording to the media which seem to be dominated and controlled by people with a particular agenda (have you read any Noam Chomsky or articles like “The 20 Major Stories that didn’t make it to the papers last year”?).

So I welcome alternate belief systems. They are actually a bit of an endangered species these days. In classical evolution it’s known that for a species to evolve in a new and more effective form, they need to isolate themselves from the main mating group of the species, otherwise they will keep on dissolving back into the gene pool, instead of making a new antler, or whatever it is. So I actually do see some point in outrageous belief systems, even if I don’t agree with them, and communities living together and supporting each other in directions that others may not approve of. The problem, as I see it, is that there are covert manipulations that tend to happen in these situations that are presented as (a) and are actually (b). An example of this is (a) MJ presenting the 1977 “Return to Devotion” as a wonderful new opportunity for us, and ––wasn’t it like this?–– a softening of his heart to “let” us adore him the way we truly longed to, when actually (b) he was worried about his income, as Mishler reported. Of course, these kinds of things are so common in groups with a “divine” leader as to be almost endemic; I'm still not willing to condemn people’s choices to do odd things in groups as “cult-like” though. There are definite signs (available on one of the links to this page) of a toxic cult. Our group was definitely toxic. People were used and lied to and bilked. Actually, I think MJ is going to do the most damage by just continuing to give talks. Although I haven’t heard him for years, I'm sure his disdain still leaks through in what he says to people. It seems as though the gen public is more aware of what is verbal abuse than it was back when.

love to all

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 15:13:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Katieunlimited, I couldn't agree more
Message:
Not!

We live in a gigantic consensus cult with a few levels: one level is just good old consensus reality, Western style, which lots of indigenous people might think pretty strange, except that they’re being programmed into it as we speak. Another level of culthood is good ole judeo-christiano-muslimo religious memes that are the invisible backbone of what we think are our own thoughts. And then there is the level of the reality acoording to the media which seem to be dominated and controlled by people with a particular agenda (have you read any Noam Chomsky or articles like “The 20 Major Stories that didn’t make it to the papers last year”?).

Katie,

I heartily disagree. With what? With all of it. The whole banana, starting with the poetic but extremely misleading and harmful extension of the fair meaning of a word (cult) to the deferential nod to indigenous 'wisdom' to the hardly-surprising Chomsky plug (that man is one of my least favorite people, no question about it. I can barely contain myself when I ponder his unwarranted self-righteous and arrogance.)

Oh, but I like you.

Anyway, rather than argue about all of it, let's just argue about the word 'cult', shall we? I agree that there's a whole scale of systems and organizations that jam peoples' thought processes, from the less-intrusive persuaders of advertising and mass media to full-on Heaven's Gate thingamajiggers. But the word 'cult', in my opinion, has a certain charge to it and that's a useful thing. It connotes a highly intrusive scheme of mental manipulation.

Is the Catholic church a cult? Depends, perhaps, on the level at which one get's involved. The Unitarians? Give me a break. TM? Yes, if you get really sucked in. Maharaji? Yes. Maybe, in some ways, a bit less than in the past but still very much so. The major news networks? Fuck you, Chomsky!

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 04:49:44 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: kmdarling
Subject: Here's links to other exes sites
Message:
Links to ex-followers websites including Sahaja Yoga, Siddha Yoga, RSSM (Radhasoami/Sant Mat).
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:22:28 (EDT)
From: Monmot
Email: None
To: Susan
Subject: Brava (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 19:21:09 (EDT)
From: CdM
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Alnight Rave for Greyhairs
Message:
Dear Anth,

could you let me know the address (by email) of the big 50 bash on Friday? I can't seem to find the invite. My desk is a f***ing mess.

Charlie

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:23:15 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Stages in Recovery
Message:
Hi there

I've just been reading some really good stuff on the Cult Awareness and Info Centre at http://www.caic.org - I've copied an excerpt below. I'm floundering somewhere in Stage Two but am definitely aiming for Stage Three.

******
There are three main stages in the recovery process:

* Realisation and Exit

* Comprehension and Emotions

* Reconstruction and Dreaming

Stage One

This first stage varies in length. The length is dependent on the method of exiting. This stage is marked by the time and experience that alerted the cultist to the danger of the group and resulted in the cultist exiting the group permanently. The key to an effective exit is whatever helps to "jump start" the critical thinking process of the mind. This process has been on hold for much too long because the cult has told the followers that to question and doubt the group is to betray god (or whatever). The price for questioning and doubting, they are told, is eternal death. This is a very powerful fear to overcome.

Awareness of the insidious nature of the cult and the decision to leave comes slowly for some and quickly for others. For example, someone receiving exit-counselling becomes aware and leaves the cult very quickly as compared to someone who walks out after reflecting over several months or years on "devil- inspired" doubts.

Even after leaving, some ex-cultists are not sure if they made the right decision and "float" between their old cult identity and their new freed identity or pre-cult self. The more information and support a cultist receives during this stage, the better equipped they are to handle the pain and loss of stage two.

Stage Two

The second phase is full of ups and downs, of feeling like you just returned from Mars, of exciting new freedoms and discoveries, and it is also full of rage and pain. It involves coming to terms with being raped, emotionally and spiritually. And for many, it involves coming to terms with being physically raped as well.

I don't know how to convey the extremes of pain possible in this phase. Perhaps, it is how you would feel standing by helplessly as some crazy person slowly murdered someone you loved. It seems so incredulousness to many that because they wanted to serve god and their country, wanted to help people, and wanted to make the world a better place - for this extension of their selves they were cruelly used. This is a very difficult aspect of the experience to reconcile. "What ever did I do to be treated like this?" is a question that rings deep in the heart of any ex-cultist. The answer to this question resides in understanding how mind control techniques work.

It is no wonder, then, that the rage and anger the ex-cultist feels is often overwhelming and frightening. So much so, that many tend to repress or deny the full expression of their emotions. But, understanding and feeling ones' emotions in a non-destructive way, I believe, is critical to recovery. This second phase can be extraordinary journey through pain and loss to learning and mastery. It varies in length and is dependent on how able the ex-cultist is to experience loss and how disciplined the ex-cultist is to study, think, and work toward a thorough understanding of the experience.

A Big Job

One of the truly tough parts about working through the experience is the very fact that it's a very big job. The ex- cultist must learn how to trust life again and learning to trust requires learning how to reality test. Because the cult phobias and teachings often touched on many aspects of life, such as family, government, education, religion, relationships, and economics, the ex-cultist often finds it necessary to examine and reality test most, if not all, of the teachings received in the cult for subtle, residual ideas that continue to manipulate the ex-cultist.

In addition, it is in this phase that the individual must learn how to trust themselves again and their ability to make decisions. Learning to trust after you have been used and hurt can be very scary, but trust in oneself and in others can be rebuilt with disciplined thinking and with courage. For those who come from dysfunctional backgrounds, recovering from the cult experience often means acknowledging and recovering from the effects of earlier dysfunctional relationships, such as:

* Abusive parents, relatives, siblings, spouse or abusing others

* Alcoholism, rape, incest, eating disorders, drug abuse

* Difficulties with intimacy, careers, law enforcement

Stage Three

To someone in the middle of the pain of stage two, the idea of having a dream again and building toward it is merely a sad, frustrating, and painful laugh. Having spent many years in stage two I understand that despondent feeling well. It is possible to rebuild your life. You will not be able to make up for all the years the cult has stolen from you, but you can make up for some of those lost years. I've worked very, very hard to recover from a severely dysfunctional family, a life of abuse emotional, physical and sexual, the death of a daughter, many years in a cult, time on drugs and alcohol to 'forget' and so on.

I'm here to share with you that if you are willing to stick with it, to work at it, to work through and let go of myths that look like truths both from the cult's teaching and from within society's teachings, and if you are willing to acquire new skills and improve others, you can and will be able to build a healthy and well-functioning life with a dream you can work toward.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:16:51 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: Stages in Recovery
Message:
This all sounds like a really good time. Where do I sign up. Maybe I can bring someone to an introductory video so they wont miss out on all this fun. I was wondering why I was buying beer by the case, never did that before. Don't work on it too hard Charle, best of luck- Zac
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:28:32 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Re: Stages in Recovery
Message:
Dear Zac

Hi there! I'm afraid that I am the serious side of Charlie - his wife! There are two of us here going through the rigours of ex-premiedom. He has all the laughs and I have to do all the research and head scratching. There's something wrong there I fear!

Lee

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:24:24 (EDT)
From: Zac
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: Stages in Recovery
Message:
Sorry LdM, I'm getting you guys confused. Stage 2 sucks. It must be helpful to live with someone who can comprehend the enormity of the situation. I keep trying to gloss it over and be done with the whole deal but it ain't over til it's over. Again best of luck LdM.
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:39:40 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: Zac
Subject: Re: Stages in Recovery
Message:
Hey!

That's amazing! I posted my reply to you just as this one from you went up. We must be working on the same vibes/ley lines/forum!

Yeah, having someone else to talk to about this horrible conundrum is really great. I reckon that with everytime I feel pain and recognise that pain, that I must be getting one more step further away from maharaji and one step nearer to my own self.

I hope you are doing OK, Zac. All the best to you too.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:53:55 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: Stages in Recovery
Message:
Hi there Lee! Thanks for your moral support down there in the Jim Jones/Maharaji thread.

Lee, it is very valuable to have these exit sign posts here for us to consider. I am glad that you are seeing your way through the thicket. Hopefully, the posts of the premies also help you to see why you are leaving the cult in the dust.

Love, Marianne

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 19:05:04 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Stages in Recovery
Message:
Hi Marianne

Yes - the premies' posts do help. Unknowingly, they delineate just where I no longer want to tread. I really didn't think that at the age of 38 I would be going through such self analysis. Surprisingly I am enjoying it (but not always). maharaji never told me about this!

Hope you are doing well.

love Lee

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 20:58:28 (EDT)
From: Diz
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: Stages in Recovery
Message:
Hi Lee

Thanks for that post. I hope not everyone's Phase 2 is quite so horrific, though I know from experience it can be very very hard, and as the author says, not short. Glad you're going through it with some enjoyment - I sometimes think grief is a bit like having a baby, only with time in reverse. There are gaps between the contractions, and as times goes on the gaps get longer. But when they're happening, they're pretty intense.

Say hi to Charlie for me. I'm glad you're there for each other.

Diz

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:48:02 (EDT)
From: CdM
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: Get the Cure
Message:
We must be working on the same vibes/ley lines/forum!

--

Oh dear Lee,

I thought you were cured of Ley Lines!

love Charlie

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 17:23:04 (EDT)
From: LdM
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Different People Leave in Different Ways
Message:
Whoops! Clicked twice by mistake. Que estupido!

BUT....since I'm here, I'll copy this other article I read this evening. I'm one of the Find Outs, I reckon. What are you?

****

Recovery from MIND CONTROL

HOW DO PEOPLE GET OUT OF RELIGIOUS CULTS?

Different people leave in different ways. Some WALK out. Some get KICKED out. Some cult members just BURN OUT. Others GROW out. Still others FIND OUT or get COUNSELED out.

WALK OUTS

These people simply rebel from the situation and leave. Unless they shed the mind control, walk-outs may lead destructive or fear-filled lives. Some adopt the attitude that since they couldn't measure up to the system's requirements, there isn't any hope for them anyway, so they might as well "live it up" while they can. Some develop patterns of living that they wouldn't have chosen otherwise.

KICKED OUTS

These people are excommunicated or shunned for a variety of reasons, usually related to the fact that they failed to fully integrate the four aspects of mind control--information control, thought control, emotion control and behavior control. People who are kicked out of cults are commonly filled with grief and guilt. They are still very loyal to the group's beliefs and its people, even though rejected by the group.

BURN OUTS

These people have been so abused spiritually, mentally, physically, emotionally and financially, that they are barely able to function on a normal basis. Some :burn-outs" exhibit the Post-Traumatic Stress syndrome that is commonly experienced by war survivors. They are usually very confused, perhaps even physically ill, afraid and unable to trust anyone, most of all themselves.

FIND OUTS

These are people who are given, or stumble onto information which explains the situation enabling them to leave the mind control without fear and guilt. These people usually take several years to work through the adjustment to normal living and attitudes. Education, scriptural as well as secular, cultivating new friends and establishing a new environment and restoring one's God-given personality are most helpful. The more one learns, the greater the healing.

COUNSELED OUTS

These people are rare. Few studies have been done on the needs of people who were born and raised within a mind control group. Most counselors are ill-equipped to handle the complexities of exit counseling because there are so many factors involved in mind control, and each person's experience is different, even within the same group.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 06:29:46 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: LdM
Subject: Re: Different People Leave in Different Ways
Message:
Vey informative and if you don't mind, I'd like to put this and your other post above on the advice section of my web site.
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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 00:48:27 (EDT)
From: kmdarling
Email: unlimited@aol.com
To: LdM
Subject: Re: Different People Leave in Different Ways
Message:
Dear LdM,

Fantastic posts! This is the kind of stuff I feel this forum is best used for. Well, actually, I think it should be used as a free forum, but this is a GREAT use of the space.

I’ve written stuff in my Journey and in other posts that relates to the exit process. My specialty has been Stage Two, the incredibly difficult process of moving through the mess of emotions and beliefs that got entangled by the experience. I've committed to putting up more info in the Breaking Free section along the lines of the posts you put up, such as stuff about how cults mirror our dysfunctional family experiences.

I like what you said encouraging people to go through it and that they will get through it and be inspired again. I can hardly believe how ghastly it was for me going through it, even with a lot of therapeutic tools and help. AND, I am happy and un-cynical and leading an inspired life again.

Let’s stay in touch. I think your posts should go on the Best of Forum, and also in this new Breaking Free section.

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 14:29:50 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Scientific proof against meditation
Message:
Well I did say there's plenty of scientific evidence that meditation was BAD for you. It all depends on where you look and how you're feeling about things. Feel like doing some meditation, then let's look up some TM scientific evidence which says meditation is good for you.

On the other hand, are you fed up with trying to meditate for an hour each day; then look up Scientific evidence that meditation can be BAD for you and then take your pick.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:34:12 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Scientific proof against meditation????
Message:
Sir Dave,

How can scientific instruments that measure heart rate, galvanic skin response, levels of blood lactate, blood pressure ect. lie?

How can Herbert Benson MD from Harvard University say one thing and some guys from Germany say something completely different? Is this science???????

I've done TM and it did make me feel relaxed and it cured me of insomnia. Anecdotal evidence to be sure, but that's my experience. The Maharishi seem to be doing quite well with all his auruvedic clinics and universities so it's satisfying a demand in the marketplace.

DD

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 18:59:32 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: Scientific proof against meditation
Message:
Forum 4 is such a hotspot of scientific activity. I mean, all those numbers and stuff, Dave. Looks like my scientific buzz comes before the weekend this week!

It's interesting material and there is a little bit of scientific information, but there is no proof in the article that you referenced. A theory that beta consciousness is lost to alpha meditation experiences is expressed, but no evidence is in sight.

Interesting in a passing sort of way but not evidence.

Doesn't mean Maharishi is a nice guym but...

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 19:18:25 (EDT)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Runamok
Subject: Meditation is neither good nor bad...
Message:
...any more than sitting on the sofa or having a hot bath is good or bad.

Cult belief systems are bad. A cult that taught, say, that you should spend 24 hours a day sitting on the sofa or immersed in a hot bath would be very bad (as would a cult that taught you can live without food).

A cult which insisted the guru was the giver of your hot bath experience would also be pretty stupid, no..?

Do whatever feels nice and let yourself be the judge.

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Date: Thurs, Oct 07, 1999 at 22:36:59 (EDT)
From: Deputy Dog
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Right on Nigel (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:25:55 (EDT)
From: Dr888
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Journeys
Message:
How come at 17.20 GMT today, the only journey i could find was my own? WHERE ARE THEY ALL NOW?
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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 12:19:13 (EDT)
From: Forum Administrator
Email: forumfour@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: Letters between Glen and Anth.
Message:
In response to your request, here are the letters exchanged between Anth Ginn and Glen Whittaker, earlier this year.

FIRST LETTER FROM ELAN VITAL

26 August 1999

Dear Anth,

I've noticed that you've made allegations about Mahatma Jagdeo, on the ex-premie.org website. These allegations are that he was involved in paedophilic activities.

You will recall that when you raised the matter with me privately in the early part of the year, my response was that I knew of no evidence to substantiate the claim or even to suspect that it was true. I am of course concerned that the allegations and your strength of belief being such that you have made this allegation publicly. As a result of this, I have conducted some enquiry but can find no evidence to substantiate the allegation, including any record of any contemporaneous or later complaint made by the alleged victim.

Allegations of this nature are of course extremely damaging. If untrue, they may destroy the life and reputation of an old man and of course may also cause damage to any victims of the alleged acts who might rather put the matter behind them or have it approached more discretely.

If however the allegations are true we would of course deplore any such activity and agree they should be exposed. If you have any further information which would assist an inquiry let me have that information as we would wish to pursue the matter with appropriate discretion as so as to cause least further distress to the alleged victim.

I should make it absolutely clear that Elan Vital was not aware of the allegations until you raised them recently, which raises the question of why you waited so may years before making them, and did not and would not approve of or condone such appalling behaviour.

Please take care that any publication on the internet or implication that Elan Vital or Maharaji knew of, approved of or condoned any such paedophile behaviour would be false and very damaging. We would have no option but to take legal advice.

Yours sincerely,

Glen Whittaker.

MY REPLY

Hi Glen,

In response to your letter of 26th August, 99, I did indeed make allegations on the ex-premie website, last year, on November 1st, in my 'Journey', based on communication with a parent and ex pupil of Unity School, earlier that year. I'm sure you remember when my story appeared on the Internet, as you wrote to me about it soon afterwards. (I'm not sure if by reminding you of this, you'll have to take legal advice, but what the hell.)

In your letter you mentioned that you conducted some enquiry. I'd be interested to know what form this took. You knew that the alleged offence took place at Unity School 74/75, as this information was in what I'd published in November. Did you ask anyone who was at Unity School at that time about what happened? If so, who? Both Dot and I were there, why didn't you ask either of us? It doesn't sound like a very thorough enquiry to me Glen. Do you even know the names of his 'alleged' victims.(there is more than one).

You say that allegations of this nature are extremely damaging. They are only damaging if they are untrue. Sexual abuse of young children is extremely damaging, and allegations of such acts, if true, are the first step in healing the damage done.

You also say if the allegations are untrue, they may destroy the life and reputation of an old man and may cause damage to any victims who might rather put the matter behind them or have it approached more discreetly. Surely Glen, if the allegations are untrue, how can 'not putting the matter behind them' cause distress, if nothing actually happened.

I do have further information that will assist an enquiry Glen. There are reports on the Ex-premie website of offences commited by Jagdeo in the United States, in the Journey's section, in the Journey by Gs mom. You should read it.

More detailed information about the crimes and the victims have been given to the Police, who've probably contacted you by now.

I've been in close communication with both victims, at every stage since this affair floated to the surface of the pool. I can assure you that they are both extremely glad that things have finally been taken seriously and been brought out into the open.

You say that Elan Vital wasn't aware of these 'alleged offences' until recently, and then hint at legal action if I disagree. If you read G's mom's Journey, on Ex-Premie.org you'll see she told two instructors, both close to Maharaji, who have both since been named on the Internet. The instructors were Randy Prowdy and Judy Osbourne, both of whom I know, respect and like. I'm quite sure they would have passed the information on.

You say you'd like to pursue the matter, you could start by asking Randy and Judy what happened, who they told and what the response was. You could also make an announcement through your organisation, worldwide, that any possible victims, or parents of children may have been sexually abused by Mahatma Jagdeo should contact you. You could then pass this information to the police.

The reason I did nothing for 25 years Glen, was because I didn't know about it until last year. As you've noticed, I've now done something.

So, I guess you'd better go and get some legal advice.

Anth the Whistle Blower

SECOND LETTER FROM ELAN VITAL

5th September 1999

Dear Anth,

Thank you for your response. Although you did not, as I requested, provide information on the name(s) of the alleged victims, or any details of the alleged offences, your news that any information is now in the hands of the police is very welcome. If we can ssist them in any way we shall be happy to do so, ans it would help to know details of whom the allegation has been reported to. On our part, we are also seeking advice from the relevant authorities in the field to ensure appropriate actions are taken.

I assure you Anth, we have researched extensively by asking people in this organisation and in the American Elan Vital about these allegations, but so far no-one, including people you mention, has any recollection of them. This is not to suggest that the alleged incidents did not take place.

Despite what you may bekieve, the sole aim of Elan Vital is to promote an inner experience of peace and an enrichment of the experience of what it means to be alive.

I would like to re-iterate that your allegations are as upsetting to us as they are to you and should the alleged victim in the case you speak of come forward we will offer her all the help we can in co-operation with the relevant authorities.

Yours, sincerely,

Glen Whittaker.

ANTH'S REPLY

Hi Glen,

Looks like you've been to see your lawyers. You requested the names of Jagdeo's victims. I didn't give them to you and I have no intention of giving them to you. I'll try to explain why.

Imagine, as an 8 or 9 year old child, you are taken to live in a place run by a religious cult. Or maybe you're a 14-year-old teenager who's become interested in meditation or something, and you start going along to cult meetings. Whatever, you end up being sexually abused by a full time representative of that cult.

Imagine, in the case of 'g-mom', after you've been abused, you report it to another full time cult official ('mahatma' or 'instructor' or 'initiator', whatever the current jargon was) in the case of 'g-mom', this person was from her home town and knew her personally. You ask him to tell your master. You meet him later and he tells you the master was informed. The instructor who assaulted you is still at large, so you tell another instructor. She gets back to you a week later, and tells you, 'Yes, the master knew already and was glad that this was not a new episode'. Or maybe in the case of the 9 year old, her parent tells yet another 'mahatma', and aquaintance of the master, and nothing ever gets back to them either.

The years roll by. November 98, I publish allegations about Jagdeo on the Internet. (I wasn't the first.) August 99, Jagdeo is reported to the police, the press get interested. , Lo and behold, the two 'instructors' 'can't remember' anything that they were told, can't remember telling Maharaji, and can't remember telling the victim what they'd done. Not only that, the cult are suddenly concerned and want the victim's names.

(And didn't you or Heather tell the 'Express' that Elan Vital was nothing to do with Divine Light Mission?)

Forget it Glen. They've lost faith in you. Your main aim seems to be keeping your master out of this. Their experience tells them the cult cares little for the victims of child abuse.

If you're really concerned about sorting this mess out, and, as you say, assisting the Police, you could start by telling them where Jagdeo is living. Is he still in the ashram in India? Is he still a Mahatma? Is he still a 'premie'. Does he still do special 'children's knowledge sessions' ? Does he still have access to children.? Do the Police in India know about his pedophiliac activities?

Your third paragraph is interesting Glen. You say, 'The sole aim of Elan Vital is to promote an inner experience of peace and an enrichment of the experience of what it means to be alive.' Hmmmmn, haven't you missed a bit out there, about the teachings of Maharaji or something, that justifies the personality cult that surrounds him? He's the one who gives you this 'experience of what it means to be alive', and 'inner peace', through his teachings, right?

You say in your last paragraph, how disturbing the allegations are, and if the 'alleged victim' comes forward (there are serious allegations of offences against at least three young girls), you will offer her all the help you can, with the co-operation with the authorities. I've already explained why they don't want to talk to you, but are happy to talk to the Police.

Whether Maharaji knew about Jagdeo's pedophilic activities or not was never an issue with me. You're the one who brought that up.

I'm not 'Anti Maharaji'. Now I no longer worship him, as a fellow human being I have sympathy for his plight and I hope he sorts himself out one day. He's a cult victim too, and I hold no personal animosity towards him whatsoever.

Yours truly,
Anth the Unruly

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Date: Wed, Oct 06, 1999 at 14:16:49 (EDT)
From: Mr D
Email: None
To: Forum Administrator
Subject: Above and more is also here
Message:
The most relevant posts regarding this sorry state of affairs are at Child abuse in Maharaji's cult.
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