Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 2
From: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 To: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 Page: 3 Of: 5


Jim -:- And so is stupidity -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 20:43:31 (EDT)

JHB -:- London Meet and Drink -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 12:27:22 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Tofu Beer -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 22:01:42 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Be careful -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:30:55 (EDT)
__ Barbara -:- Re: Be careful -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 02:17:24 (EDT)
__ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Steal THESE Pictures Here and Now -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 15:34:52 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: Be careful -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:42:48 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: Be careful -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 15:16:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jethro -:- Re: Be careful -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 21:15:14 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Be careful -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 19:52:00 (EDT)
__ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Photogenic? -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 01:37:45 (EDT)

Jim -:- Hey Way, what do you say? (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:22:48 (EDT)
__ Way -:- Re: Hey Way, what do you say? (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 12:28:34 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Re: Hey Way, what do you say? (ot) -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 20:37:12 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- You might accept this -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 10:16:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Way -:- Re: You might accept this -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 10:58:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Way -:- ps. roman catholic -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 11:08:03 (EDT)

Jim -:- Mel says it all (and does he ever!) -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:09:31 (EDT)
__ Mel Bourne -:- Mel says it all ...again!!! -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 07:25:20 (EDT)
__ __ gmom -:- Re: Mel says it all ...again!!! -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 11:39:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Clarifying some misunderstandings... -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 06:33:19 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ gmom -:- okay -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:02:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Yup! ***Best of Forum*** -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 15:39:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Hey Rog, -:- Gotta be a ***best of*** eh? -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 12:31:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ CD -:- Re: Mel says it all ...again!!! -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 04:09:15 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- You're cursed, you guys -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:35:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Thanks CD.... -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 06:39:22 (EDT)
__ __ Jerry -:- Elaborate, please -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 10:52:14 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Experience without Maharaji...... -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 05:58:16 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Re: Experience without Maharaji...... -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:47:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Me a devotee? -:- Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 09:54:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: Me a devotee? -:- Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 11:46:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel in love... -:- Maharaji's love.... -:- Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 06:00:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ ham -:- Re: Maharaji's love.... -:- Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 10:00:20 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Projections and idol worship -:- Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 14:39:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jean-Michel -:- NO PREMIE dares admit -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 12:21:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- It's all bullshit -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 17:00:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Idiocy and cowardice is all you offer -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:42:45 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- You just dig yourself in deeper -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 07:54:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Really buried.... -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 06:43:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jim -:- Yes, you prove me point -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:40:21 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ A speculative Mel -:- Your point is meaningless.... -:- Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 09:29:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- God, you're so THICK!!!!! -:- Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 13:06:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Mel's further speculations -:- THICK & THICKER STILL!!!!! -:- Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 05:38:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ G-mom -:- Re: Yes, you prove me point -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 12:10:04 (EDT)

Secret Agent Man -:- Link to Pedophiles & Cults -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 03:26:30 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Re: Link to Pedophiles & Cults -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 14:28:53 (EDT)
__ __ VP -:- Hello, JW-nt -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 16:59:03 (EDT)

Secret Agent Man -:- Sex Offenders on the Web - Jagdeo? -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 02:39:10 (EDT)
__ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Sex Offenders on the Web - Jagdeo? -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:17:28 (EDT)
__ __ Jethro -:- Re: Sex Offenders on the Web - Jagdeo? -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:39:33 (EDT)
__ __ S.A.M. -:- Sex Offenders sitting frontstage at the Lotus Feet of Maharaji! -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:30:24 (EDT)

Ben Lurking -:- Legal Begals Gather round -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 02:12:09 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- An unavoidable necessity -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:36:39 (EDT)
__ __ g's mom -:- Re: An unavoidable necessity -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:39:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ gmom -:- ps -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:45:38 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Right (and wrong in a way too) -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:14:57 (EDT)
__ __ VP -:- Child sexual abuse -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:03:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ Sir Dave -:- What I meant -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 12:20:27 (EDT)
__ __ __ Dr Reich -:- Re: Child sexual abuse -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:58:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ VP -:- Freud and the female orgasm -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 16:45:04 (EDT)

Q -:- Mutiny on the Bootie -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 18:49:17 (EDT)
__ The Apostate -:- Ok, let's talk... -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 20:11:04 (EDT)
__ __ Liz -:- Eye opener....Let's talk -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 21:58:27 (EDT)
__ __ Surreal Simon -:- Re: Ok, let's talk... -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 22:24:11 (EDT)
__ __ Q -:- What do you mean by talk? -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 21:49:05 (EDT)
__ __ Catweasel -:- Ok, let's ask Nigel by his new sexy meaningless monicker !!! -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 21:24:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ Gregg -:- The English Language -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 21:44:29 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: The English Language -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 03:16:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Negative Creep -:- Positive Feedback coming your way here and now! -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:19:38 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- HEEL!! HEEL!! YOU BLOODY MONGREL!!! -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:18:28 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Digger Dan -:- Re: HEEL!! HEEL!! YOU BLOODY MONGREL!!! -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:31:54 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Negative Creep -:- Thank you Digger Dan. Poor ol' Catweasel can't do anything right (NT) -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 13:34:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ The Feline Help and I.T Support Team -:- Re: HEEL!! HEEL!! YOU BLOODY MONGREL!!! -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:26:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: The English Language -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 21:59:55 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Q -:- Re: The Englishhhh Languageeee -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 22:09:37 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Mmmmarianneee -:- Re: The Englishhhh Languageeee -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 22:22:58 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Gregg -:- Hot Cha Cha -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 23:06:24 (EDT)

AJW -:- Dear Anth... -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 16:33:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ Gmom -:- more -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 11:04:25 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Oh yeah, I forgot -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 06:15:42 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: Dear Anth... -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 21:22:33 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Thanks Robyn (nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 12:56:02 (EDT)
__ __ Enough -:- Re: Dear Anth... -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 23:22:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- Thanks Enough(nt) -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 12:56:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Dear Anth... -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:50:37 (EDT)
__ JW -:- Glen is such a pathetic sod. -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 00:21:56 (EDT)
__ The Apostate -:- Don't you just love Glen's impartial objectivity..? The guy's a scientist. -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 20:02:43 (EDT)
__ The Apostate -:- !!! -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 19:56:25 (EDT)
__ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Dear Anth... -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 17:06:41 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Silence is no protection. -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 18:14:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Robyn -:- Re: Silence is no protection. -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:54:56 (EDT)
__ Roger E. Drek -:- YEAH, BABY! EV comes out from under its rock. -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 16:57:48 (EDT)
__ g-mom -:- Re: Dear Anth... -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 16:49:06 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: Dear Anth... -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 05:00:09 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- Dear g-mom -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 18:22:44 (EDT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Re: Dear g-mom -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 19:12:59 (EDT)
__ Sir Dave -:- Re: Dear Anth... -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 16:48:09 (EDT)
__ __ Roger E. Drek -:- EV is DLM -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 17:03:34 (EDT)

Jim -:- Urgetn message for Jagdeo -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:27:26 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- Re: Urgent message for Jagdeo -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 14:09:02 (EDT)
__ __ Enough -:- Re: Urgent message for Jagdeo -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 23:02:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ Marianne -:- Leopold & Loeb -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 15:00:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ IHS Gabriel -:- Re: Leopold & Loeb -:- Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 08:31:33 (EDT)
__ __ bill -:- ot-Jerry-Way -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 00:45:24 (EDT)

Jim -:- Trebinanand anyone? -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:55:48 (EDT)
__ RT -:- Re: Trebinanand anyone? -:- Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 09:25:37 (EDT)
__ Liz -:- Re: Trebinanand anyone? -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 15:03:55 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Trebinanand -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 16:44:41 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Re: Trebinanand -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 23:05:19 (EDT)
__ Ben Luking -:- Re: SP=Trevinanand(?) NT -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:24:11 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- Either or? -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:30:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Either or? -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:33:28 (EDT)

Roger E. Drek -:- What is Elan Vital? -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 22:13:28 (EDT)
__ The Apostate -:- The origin of the term... (as if you cared) -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 19:40:59 (EDT)
__ Roger E. Drek -:- Do they believe that EV not equal DLM? -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 17:18:58 (EDT)


Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 20:43:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: And so is stupidity
Message:
Here's some more brilliance from ELK:

Colin Duffin

Co. Kildare, Ireland

Plough my images

Yesterday in descending raindrops
I came upon a rusted plough
Hidden in weeds and wild flowers
And on one shaft a heron perched

He took flight away eastward bound
I viewed him long enraptured, then I
Imagined by this old plough, sounds
Of hoof and harness through the meadow

In fields at hand or forgotten now
This plough with horse and man
Spending long days in rain or sun
Lovingly bringing forth the harvest

Yes, this plough it stirs thoughtfulness
Far away pictures of man and horse
His endeavour lost from memory, still
I am inspired by you old plough in silence.

PS: The moths are flying outside my window searching for the light. One can see them but can never explain to them, it's useless. They remind me of Jonathan's moving on piece. Here are his antagonist's in analogy outside my window. Simplicity is everywhere.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 12:27:22 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: London Meet and Drink
Message:
Just a reminder that myself and Anth and anyone else who wants to, are meeting and drinking in the Latvian club in Bayswater, London, tomorrow (Thursday) evening from about 8.00 pm.

Email me for address and directions.

John.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 22:01:42 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Tofu Beer
Message:
Dear JHB,
Who else would I think of when I heard this on the commercial for the news. I am trying to stay up for the piece but I am fading fast!
A long time ago we had a thread about different ways to eat tofu, this is a New one!!! :)
Hope you guys had a great time. I am thinking of the day you will be raising a few with Marianne! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:30:55 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Be careful
Message:
In case you forgot what darshan is ....

More darshan pictures

Not for oversensitive exes .....

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 02:17:24 (EDT)
From: Barbara
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Be careful
Message:
Jean-Michel,

Thanks for the lovely photos, blurry and not particularly well-reproduced though they may be. They reminded me of many great, irreplaceable and undeniable experiences that I've had myself. Kind of cuts through all the bitching and moaning though I'm sure that wasn't your intention. Thanks anyway.

All best to you, Barbara

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 15:34:52 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Steal THESE Pictures Here and Now
Message:
I don't know why I'm being so nice today, but you can steal tons of pictures of Maharaji at Agent Everglades' Maharaji Picture Files webpage.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:42:48 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Barbara
Subject: Re: Be careful
Message:
The pictures also reminded me of many 'darshan experiences' and how much I loved to see HIM in person. It was the ultimate for me. I really believed he was the source.
The nice thing now is that I still feel THAT love etc...but it has nothing to do with prempal or anyone else except me.

He and other 'teachers' who propagate themselves as 'the source'(implicitely or explicitely) are thieves and abusers at the deepest level.

Don't be fooled for too long.

Jethro

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 15:16:44 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Be careful
Message:
Of course Jed, when it comes to comparing personal experience it's all pretty relative, isn't it. Hard to hang your hat either way. Certainly not enough to make the kind of absolute statement you just made.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 21:15:14 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: URL
Subject: Re: Be careful
Message:
'Of course Jed, when it comes to comparing personal experience it's all pretty relative, isn't it. Hard to hang your hat either way. Certainly not enough to make the kind of absolute statement you just made. '

Personal experience is all anyone has....I understand that because you are a premie(or similar) you don't value your own self. Your master tried to stop us believing in our own selves.
Try going to meet some of the other Maharaji's and spend time with their followers(like I have)...you will see the same patterns emerge...the same con.

You see URL the 'true love' really is unconditional.

'Jed'

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 19:52:00 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Be careful
Message:
The child Maharaji dressed up like Krishna still looks cute to me but the teenage Maharaji looks smarmy and the Maharaji getting married - uh! How did we think this guy was the Lord???
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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 01:37:45 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Photogenic?
Message:
Was Maharaji chosen over Bob-o-ganja-ji for photogenic reasons? Cute & sexy sells!
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:22:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Hey Way, what do you say? (ot)
Message:
Way,

I've brought this up top because, well, why not?

You wrote:

Jim,

I am just now getting back to you on your post of last week concerning Behe and the eye. I have now re-read the pages of Behe's book that you cited.

You are quite wrong to say that Behe proposes the eye as an example of irreducible complexity. On the contrary, in these pages Behe makes it clear that his theory of irreducible complexity does not address the anatomical structure of the eye, whether it be a very complex structure such as the human eye, or a much more simpler structure such as the photoreceptor cells in the jellyfish. Rather, his theory would address the biochemical processes of vision at the molecular level.

Actually, Behe does not propose anything about the eye and/or vision in regard to his theory of irreducible complexity. He does quote some of the past debate on the subject of eye anatomy evolution and he concludes that the question remains open and unproven either way. If Behe were to use vision as an example of his theory of irreducible complexity he would isolate a single biochemical process at the cellular level in the simplest light-sensitive structure possible. But he does not. Instead, he proposes five or six other examples which are less challenging in terms of the practical problems of future research.

By the way, one of your objections to Behe is that he is a practicing Roman Catholic. Did you know that Ken Miller, whose critique we are discussing, is the same?!

I'm in a hurry, running off to court, but I wonder if you'd be so kind as to cite a little chapter and verse? I'll read your reference later and get back to you.

And where did I attack him on the grounds that he's a catholic? Not saying I didn't but I can't recall doing so. Where?

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 12:28:34 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Hey Way, what do you say? (ot)
Message:
Jim,

Unfortunately, your comment about Behe being a Roman Catholic was made before Aug. 18 and is no longer accessible to me, since my computer is not equiped to unzip files. No big deal, though.

My comments about Behe and the eye are made from my re-reading the pages you cited, from the first 30 pages of the book. I do not have the book with me and cannot be more specific with actual quotes, but where the issue is discussed most directly is when Behe quotes Hitching from his book 'The Neck of the Giraffe', who does describe the eye as too complex to have evolved from mutation/selection, and then Dawkin's response where he argues the point rather effectively. Behe says clearly that their argument is misdirected and cannot be decided at the level of the existing human eye. Behe's theory is pure biochemistry and is testible only at the minutest, cellular level - period. However, in the event that Behe's theory is someday tested and verified, arguments for irreducible complexity could then be extrapolated for higher levels of the organism, but that remains the challenge.

By the way, I have just read two essays which I would like you to read. I find both these essays even more compelling than Behe's biochemical theory. One essay is about the four universal constants, the five fundamental laws of nature, and the primary properties of matter which are all required for life, and the other essay is about the incredibly vast amount of information stored and transfered by DNA in living cells. Both these essays are mind-boggling (but not completely over our heads) and they both argue very effectively for an incredible intelligence at work in the universe. If you think you could stand to read them, please email me your mailing address and I will send copies to you in the mail. My email address is wwilliam@kumc.edu.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 20:37:12 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: Re: Hey Way, what do you say? (ot)
Message:
Way,

I'm going to take another look at Darwin's Black Box because my recollection is that he did indeed cite the eye as an example of 'irreducible complexity'. I'll get back to you on this. Trust me.

Yes, I'll gladly read the essays you're talking about. My address is:

7 - 547 Herald Street
Victoria, B.C.
Canada, V8W 1S5

Thanks

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 10:16:59 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You might accept this
Message:
This guy seems about as fair as Behe could ever hope for. And, polite as he is, he trashes him.
A Biochemist's Response to "The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution"
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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 10:58:46 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: You might accept this
Message:
Jim,

Yeah, you're right, I might accept this paticular review - IF I could understand it. Any argument among scientists over the minute details of biochemistry (or any other field) will be beyond me. I'm afraid I need to rely on those authors who market specifically to the lay person. The website 'The World of Richard Dawkins' has enough discussion of Behe to last me the rest of my days, so I think I will accept the review you posted by Andrew Pomiankowski who dispassionately acknowledges both the pros and the cons of Behe's work and leaves the question open for further research.

Although I must rely on popularizers of science, their books tend to overstate their one-sided positions, make uncalled-for generalizations and assumptions, and denounce their opponents in the most colorful but unproductive ways. Nowhere is the debate more muddled that in the discussion of Darwinian evolution. And I dispair of ever being able to manuever my way through the entire maze.

But the central question is really quite simple - can the amount of order and information in the universe be attributed to anything other that the presumption of a directing intelligence? There are many, many other areas to consider besides the mutation/selection theory, and I am sending you a couple.

BTW, speaking of mazes, did you see the news today about the genetic manipulation which produces smarter mice? What was your immediate reaction? I immediately thought of the prospect of smarter rats in NYC and how this type of human tinkering may end up quite conterproductive.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 11:08:03 (EDT)
From: Way
Email: None
To: Way
Subject: ps. roman catholic
Message:
I may be confused about the Roman Catholic objection. It may not have been you that mentioned it but some reviewer that I read.
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:09:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Mel says it all (and does he ever!)
Message:
In a post below Mel said the following:

Indeed, I don't particularly feel comfortable with his apparent wealth or with some of the allegations that are made against him on this site. Irrespective of this, however, is the fact that, for me, Knowledge works, and as I have said before, it is this personally undeniable fact alone that puts me on Maharaji's side. If it was personality based for me, then I could like or dislike a his personality, if it was behaviour based for me then I could agree or disagree with his behaviour, but it's not based there, it's based on my experience of Knowledge and how I perceive it's value and influence in my life.

The moral implications are clear and astounding. Mel is saying two things here that eloquently and decidedly prove that he is in a cult:

1) He is unable to judge Maharaji. Yes, there are things he's heard and maybe even seen about the man that he would deplore in other circumstances. But, Maharaji, he thinks, has given him 'something' that cuts the wires under the steering column. (Or maybe its the brake lines).

2) He has sold his pottage for a mess of soul. That is, he accepts Maharaji's program that if he likes the 'knowledge' he cannot judge the 'master'. Query: is there any limit to the cult member's application of this formula? Is there anything bad Mel could ever learn about Maharaji that would impinge on his loyalty? Anything at all? The answer, unfortunately, seems to be 'no'. Correct me if I'm wrong, Mel, but you've heard that:

a) Maharaji knowingly kept a full-blown pedophile in circulation as one of his 'saints'.

b) protected a man who tried to kill a prankster who threw a cream pie in Maharaji's face. (What if Bill Gates did that after his little episode in Brussels?)

c) made himself grossly wealthy under the guise of collecting money to 'spread world peace'.

d) is an alcoholic.

e) has kept at least one mistress for years even while first eliciting vows of chastity from thousands of followers who he threatened with ruin should they ever leave his monastic order.

f) etc., etc. ETC.

Scary to think that I was once like that?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 07:25:20 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Mel says it all ...again!!!
Message:
Jim

I guess I was expecting too much from you ...

...Maharaji, he thinks, has given him 'something' that cuts the wires under the steering column. (Or maybe its the brake lines).

Firstly, the 'bad' things that you have enumerated in your post are really unsubstantiated allegations, and I can only give them credence in this way. So the implication that I somehow use the experience of Knowledge to exonerate Maharaji of blame in these mattters is really only academic. Clearly, I'm not willing to pass a personal judgement on Maharaji on the basis of malicious gossip and hearsay from people who so obviously hate him, and neither should I.

What I can judge Maharaji on is what he says about Knowledge and whether my experience tallies with this. Fortunately, Jim, the answer is 'yes', what Maharaji has said about Knowledge and it's practice is true for me. By comparison, his lifestyle is merely a matter of opinion, some may agree, some may disagree, based on their cultural conditioning or personal bias.... so what? You and I may completely disagree with his lifestyle, but that doesn't detract from the quality of Knowledge, it has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Even if Maharaji turned out to be the most despicable man who ever walked this Earth (and I don't think that even ex's would describe him in this way!) the quality of Knowledge itself cannot be diminished, and the acknowledgement that I would have for Maharaji for bringing Knowledge to my attention and into my life would not be diminished either, despite whatever I thought of his other personal attributes.

So there you have it, plain and simple... I've said it all again(and do I ever!)

Mel

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 11:39:46 (EDT)
From: gmom
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: Mel says it all ...again!!!
Message:
Dear Mel,

Yes, there are a few more despicable men, hey there are many, perhaps we should choose the ONE most despicable man, lets say...Hitler...and say well...the others are not as bad, so what they did isn't important....John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Jim Jones, Charles Manson....none were quite as bad as Hitler...so they are all a buch of insignifigant sweeties?

So, by your logic, if Hitler had given you THAT knowledge, you would still have to be gratelful and loyal to him? The qualtiy of the experience could not be denied, the acknowledgement etc would all be the same?

No Rawat is not on Hitler's level at all, but does the logic hold?

Is there anything you could hear Rawat did that could diminish your gratitude? Any crime you could imagine that you would say...Nah, not for me any more. What if tomorrow he took an Uzi and opened fire on a nursery school? Would your gratitude remain intact? No again, I do not think he would do that, just following what you say to its logical reaches.

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 06:33:19 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: gmom
Subject: Clarifying some misunderstandings...
Message:
Hi gmom,

...the others are not as bad, so what they did isn't important....John Wayne Gacy, Jeffrey Dahmer, Jim Jones, Charles Manson....none were quite as bad as Hitler...so they are all a buch of insignifigant sweeties?

No, of course not. Anyone who has a disrespect for human life and goes to the extent that these people did are as bad as each other but I don't see Maharaji falling into this category. I beleive that he has the profoundest respect for life to the extent of trying to put people in contact with the source of it and experience it for themselves.

So, by your logic, if Hitler had given you THAT knowledge, you would still have to be gratelful and loyal to him? The qualtiy of the experience could not be denied, the acknowledgement etc would all be the same?

You are extending my 'logic' to absurd lengths, the idea that Hitler could possibly promote an experience of joy by practically revealing the source of life and then snuffing it out in the way that he did is absolutely ridiculous. To Hitler, life was insignificant and cheap compared to his idealogy, to Maharaji it obvious that ideaology is insignificant compared to the value and experience of life. I can't understand why ex-premies quite often compare Maharaji to Hitler.

What if tomorrow he took an Uzi and opened fire on a nursery school? Would your gratitude remain intact? No again, I do not think he would do that, just following what you say to its logical reaches.

I would obviously be devastated by such actions, so who knows what would happen to my gratitude. I think it unlikely to be tested to this extreme though, don't you.

The resentment that ex's hold against Maharaji aren't based on such extremes of behaviour. In my view, they are based on frustrated expectations that have been blown out of all proportion. They are focussed on attributes of his personality that ex's happen to disagree with, rather than on the conviction he has about the importance of Knowledge and his dedication to it's promotion. Everyone has traits that other people may not like, Maharaji included, but I think that ex's have lost site of the positive traits that Maharaji has.

Mel

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:02:08 (EDT)
From: gmom
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: okay
Message:
Yes, I admitted I was taking things to extremes. It is often useful to do that to test the validity of an argument.

I think Rawat's 'behavior' is bad enough to justify many ex's and the general public's contempt for him. Allowing himself to be worshiped as a Messiah, allowing poor premies to send most of their money to him ( or should I say Him as it was it most '70s publications ) so he could live in the height of excessive luxury, allowing many of us to live in Monastic orders where we rose each morning to sing praises to a large portrait of him, and IF he really has discovered that Oh my God...I'm not God...not dealing directly with this revelation by telling all the remaining follwers, loud and clear, that he is not the Messiah. You cannot just decide the I'm God angle is no longer working one day and try to drop it hoping no one will notice. And of course, his mishandling and covering up for the abusive Mahatmas, his hyprocrisy in what he asked of his followers vs his own personal life, and numerous other details listed in this site do not paint a picture of an ethical good man. But even without that, all you need is the Lord of the Universe, the Ashrams, Arti, Darshan...all you need are the things each and every one of us personally experienced, to know he is a con.

Did I find 'Knowledge' an incredible thing worthy of absolute devotion. No. I thought it was like the emporers new clothes. Meditation felt peaceful and nice, when I wasn't falling asleep on my baragon. That was all for me. I have had many experiences since more powerful. My love for my husband and kids feels a lot more powerful than any technique. And my children's first steps brought more joy than any Darshan line.

As far as losing site of Rawat's positive traits. I recall now only one, he seemed to love his own children. I do not recall that his love, however, extended to the children of premies, many of whom were treated very badly by parents attempting to show devotion to their Lord. Where did Rawat say, 'hey, parents, your kids are more important than I am, don't spend money you do not have to come see me, buy them better clothes, take them to the zoo, rent a better house'...did he warn parents about Jagdeo?.....do you recall childcare at festivals? It wasn't exactly going to pass anyone's ideal environment for kids inspection, but did you ever see the places built for the Divine Kids....temporary playlands with no expense spared. No his, love for his kids was just another selfish love, they were an extension of himself...so they were treated well. We, the premies, were what he fed off of.

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 15:39:21 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: gmom
Subject: Yup! ***Best of Forum***
Message:
Yes, indeedy! gmom's post is a keeper. As usual all the ex-premies are asking for is some honesty and accountability from Maharaji and his premies, but all we get is the continual soft selling of Maharaji's damaged goods.

***Best of the Forum***

Roger's House of Maharaji Drek

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 12:31:33 (EDT)
From: Hey Rog,
Email: None
To: Drek
Subject: Gotta be a ***best of*** eh?
Message:
Clear, concise. Nice job, Jeezmum
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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 04:09:15 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: gmom
Subject: Re: Mel says it all ...again!!!
Message:
>just following what you say to its logical reaches.

If you follow to the logical reaches what M has publicly stated in his talks to people to experience the source of peace in themselves, you will find that it leads to good.
This is in great contrast to the influence of evil people in this world.
I believe that is the spirit of what Mel has been trying to convey. He has respect for the positive things that M has promoted, which are many.
The positive side of the story is shortchanged on this web site. Yet there are people such as Mel and myself who know and appreciate the positive side.

CD

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:35:01 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You're cursed, you guys
Message:
Your constant reference to the 'positive' is just another way of saying 'please, don't take me below the surface'. You can't afford to go there. I'm appalled at your superficiality. It's absolutely gutless.
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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 06:39:22 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: CD
Subject: Thanks CD....
Message:
....it's great to have some support around here, email me sometime

Mel

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 10:52:14 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Elaborate, please
Message:
Mel,

Do you believe that your 'experience' is available without Maharaji? What do you think Maharaji believes? Do you think he belives you could have your experience without him?

I'm not talking about the fact that you, indirectly, learned the techniques from him. I'm talking about the experience itself. Is it available without Maharaji? If you had learned the techniques at ex-premie.org, for instance, do you think that would diminish your experience?

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 05:58:16 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Jerry
Subject: Experience without Maharaji......
Message:
Hi Jerry

Do you believe that your 'experience' is available without Maharaji?

I really have no idea, and it would be hard for me speculate. Probably if he had not been alive I might have found it by some other means, the fact is though, that I found it and it was through Maharaji.

What do you think Maharaji believes?

Again I don't really know, but I am sure he beleives that Knowledge is an important ingredient for happiness in human life and it is evident that he is totally committed to promoting it and supporting people who practise it.

Do you think he belives you could have your experience without him?

Probably not, he has always advised premies to stay in touch with him. My experience is that he has provided me with the inspiration to practise. I think that his conviction about the importance of Knowledge is a practical reminder to me. So in this sense I suppose he regards himself as invaluable to the process, and I am inclined to agree. It's very hard to be self motivated, especially in the earlier years.

If you had learned the techniques at ex-premie.org, for instance, do you think that would diminish your experience?

Definitely, who would provide me the inspiration to practise? Who here sings the praises of Knowledge and the experience of it? If I was to rely on ex-premie.org for the experience and inspiration.....well....

Mel

I reall

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:47:06 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: Experience without Maharaji......
Message:
Mel,

Here's an analogy on how I see it. Correct me if I'm wrong, because you see, I'm unimpressed with Knowledge. I only practiced it because of that 'inspiration' you talk about. I just kept hoping and believing that one day it would manifest into what was promised by it. It never did. But Maharaji was good. He had me going for the longest time that it would. I am a little embarassed by that. I don't like admitting to being scammed, and for so long.

But anyway, tell me what's wrong with this analogy, because in your mind, I'm certain that something must be. Say you're at a friend's house and he has some music playing on the stereo that you've never heard before. You like it. You like it so much, you find out who the artist is and you go out and buy the CD for yourself. Now, are you going to wait until somebody reminds you how great this CD is before you play it? Don't you already know that? Do you follow what I'm saying? Why do you need Maharaji to remind you how great the experience of Knowledge is in order for you to continue practicing it?

It doesn't make sense, Mel. It sounds like bullshit. It sounds like you're not being honest, like you're just trying to get over. It pisses me off a little that you're doing that because I'm trying to be honest with you. I'd like you're honesty in return.

If Knowledge is all that, in and of itself, than Knowledge, itself, should be enough of an inspiration for you to continue practicing it. Why wouldn't it be?

I'll tell you, if it was only the experience of Knowledge that was my inspiration to keep practicing it, I would have stopped almost as soon as I started, that's how much of a letdown the 'experience' was. But because so many people, especially Maharaji, were 'singing it's praises', as you put it, I carried on with it. I guess I wanted it to be true and was willing to listen to all the bullshit that it was.

But you're a different case than me. You're actually having THE EXPERIENCE, whatever that is. It doesn't make sense to me that a guy like you would need more than the experience, itself, to carry on.

Only if that experience is dependent upon you're love and devotion to Maharaji, not to practicing Knowledge, would you need Maharaji for the experience. That's the way it looks to me. If that's the way it is, than you should be aware of that and stop jerking yourself around that Knowledge is what you're impressed by. It's Maharaji that you're impressed by. Or maybe both. But at least admit that Maharaji is JUST AS IMPORTANT to you as Knowledge is. And it's not because he inspires you to keep practicing Knowledge. It's because you love him and are his devotee.

Are you ashamed to admit that?

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Date: Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 09:54:40 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Me a devotee?
Message:
It's because you love him and are his devotee.

You could be right about this, you know, Jerry.

To be honest, I've never seen myself as a devotee of Maharaji in the typical 'premie' sense, you know 'Bhole shri' and all that. My view has always been that devotion is the practical application and enjoyment of what Maharaji has shown me (ie the practice of Knowledge). I suppose, in retrospect, the views that I express on this forum could be as a result of a deeper and more genuine love for Maharaji than I suspected myself capable of.

Hmmmmmm.......

Funny it's an ex that has pointed this out to me, but thanks anyway

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 11:46:07 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Re: Me a devotee?
Message:
Mel,

Looks like you've understood something profound. The deep love for Maharaji that can be called devotion is what this whole trip is about. It's what Maharaji has spoken about, hinted at, and at times demanded, since he started his work.

The question is, is he worthy of your love? I am sure you would say yes. Clearly I say no. The meditation techniques are worthy of some gratitude - I am happy to concede that. However, I do not believe the love you have, and I had, is reciprocated. Sure he sits there and says he loves us, but how many does he know individually? I cannot now see any difference between that love he has for his audience and the love pop stars have for their's.

There have been many examples of how Maharaji does not demonstrate that personal love when he has the opportunity to do so.

So, Mel, you now know you love him. Does he love you?

John.

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Date: Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 06:00:45 (EDT)
From: Mel in love...
Email: None
To: JHB
Subject: Maharaji's love....
Message:
Hi JHB

You ask if Maharaji loves me personally.

I have no idea really but am inclined to the view that he probably doesn't love me PERSONALLY because, as you said in your post, he doesn't know me personally.

I think the real question is, if he doesn't love me personally, does that really matter? Maybe this is a question alot of the ex's and premies have considered. To me, though the answer is, it doesn't. The reason - because love is of value to the one experiencing it, it may also be of value to the object of that love, but not necessarily. I don't really have a lot of expectation that Maharaji SHOULD love me personally so I'm not really disappointed in that regard.

Love enhances my personal life, and hopefully, of those around me, so I see this as an entirely postive phenomenom.

Mel

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Date: Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 10:00:20 (EDT)
From: ham
Email: None
To: Mel in love...
Subject: Re: Maharaji's love....
Message:
In other words your love is a projection from you
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Date: Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 14:39:26 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: ham
Subject: Projections and idol worship
Message:
I don't think Mel's ever going to understand that, Ham. Maharaji is only what Mel has made him. Mel has made Maharaji out to be so pure and divine, how could he not love him? Maharaji, in Mel's sweet dream, is everything Mel could hope for in a person. Maharaji is his saviour, his liberator. But it's all Mel's creation. Maharaji, in reality, is none of these things. He's just a man placed on a pedestal by a multitude of needful people looking for a god to worship. Maharaji just strings them along. It's really quite sad. I wonder if he believes it, himself.
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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 12:21:53 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: NO PREMIE dares admit
Message:
The 'problem' is that NO PREMIE will dare admit publicly that k's key ingredient is love and devotion for 'the master'. Why ?

When Rawat HIMSELF said it openly in many talks, and it's been published in so many videos through so many examples. Do you need more of them on the EV-DLM Papers? Maybe some video excerpts would make the trick ....who knows. Of course some premies will tell me I'm living in the past!

Like the famous 'triangle' example ..... remember ?

That's why Rawat's cult is doomed IMO. In Western countries anyway.

IF you'd admit it, obviously people would come and devote their lives to the master. Looks like some people need this. The problem is that Mr Rawat doesn't want to be officially considered as a person people devote their lives to.

Every premie is desperately trying to hide something obvious, and doesn't see how ridiculous that is for anybody outside their group.

Pityful. And undoubtedly painful for EVERY premie, living in constant denial.

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 17:00:32 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: It's all bullshit
Message:
JM,

You know what I think? I think that since Maharaji is such a sneak about the master/devotee trip (just 'keep in touch', my ass), premies have become just as sneaky. Do as the master does, y'know? If he wants to pretend we're not devotees, well then let's pretend, too.

But he's not that sneaky (not successfully so, anyway). I just thought about the lineage of masters that Maharaji has on his website. What's that about if he's not trying to prove his validity as a master because he has his predecessors stamp of approval? And what master doesn't want devotees? Hmm? Since when?

You know, fuck Maharaji. He's a sneaking fucking bastard that nobody will ever know where they stand with him. His whole trip is bullshit so trying to make sense out of it is a fruitless endeavor. Just chalk it up as being total bullshit and if you expect honesty from it, you might as well bang your head on the wall.

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:42:45 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Idiocy and cowardice is all you offer
Message:
Your answers to Jerry are ridiculous, Mel. I don't know how you can live with yourself.
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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 07:54:22 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: You just dig yourself in deeper
Message:
Mel,

Be honest. If, as you say, Maharaji turned out to be the 'most despicable man who ever walked the earth', would you still like him?

A simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice. No, I'm not for a moment suggesting that you limit your answer or anything like that. I just think it's best to have the meal first, then desert. Answer the question directly please, then elaborate however you wish.

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 06:43:17 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Really buried....
Message:
Probably not, Jim, but as I said to gmom, I don't think he's anywhere close to being in the running, so such speculation is meaningless.... What if? What if? what if?...

Mel

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 11:40:21 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel Bourne
Subject: Yes, you prove me point
Message:
A moment ago I said you guys were cursed. That you can't afford to look below the surface. Here, you prove my point. Your inability to speculate says it all. (NB: you guys speculate like crazy when you don't feel threatened. But here too, your superficiality makes you impervious to criticism that you might be somewhat hypocritical. After all, what do you care? Right?)
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Date: Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 09:29:27 (EDT)
From: A speculative Mel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Your point is meaningless....
Message:
Your inability to speculate says it all.

Sorry Jim,

I'm able to speculate on lots of things...

....is there organic life on Mars?

....what happens to me when I die?

....will ex's ever really understand Maharaji?

....etc, etc, etc...

Speculation is a natural part of being a human being and obviously has it's place, it's part of the imagination and creativity we all have. But by itself, without common sense, can lead to all sorts of false ideas and delusions. You being, being an athiest, would appreciate this notion, especially if the speculation were of a 'religious' or 'spiritual' nature (I have noticed that you are very hostile to anyone on this site who speculates in this way).

The pragmatic 'let's wait and see' approach is what I personally prefer, but this shouldn't be confused for an 'inability' to speculate.

Mel

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Date: Sat, Sep 04, 1999 at 13:06:55 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: A speculative Mel
Subject: God, you're so THICK!!!!!
Message:
Holy Moly!

Everything you say simply makes the point more and more and you, you fucking idiot, just can't see it.

Of course you can speculate. But what you're too chicken-shit to do is speculate about Maharaji. Why? Because you're afraid to.

But you know what? This is all bullshit too because, Mel, we all know that you do in fact follow every single speculative comment here, just like anyone. The only difference with you is you're too frightened and dishonest to admit it.

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Date: Sun, Sep 05, 1999 at 05:38:25 (EDT)
From: Mel's further speculations
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: THICK & THICKER STILL!!!!!
Message:
But what you're too chicken-shit to do is speculate about Maharaji. Why? Because you're afraid to.

Jim

What's there to speculate about Maharaji?

Whether he's God incarnate or not? Where does that lead us? Into pointless intellectual debate where all the differing opinions may not reflect the truth of the situation anyway.

Is he a fraud? Some, like you, will say 'yes' and put forward your reasons, and others, like me, will say 'no' and put forward our reasons.

Is he guilty of aiding and abetting the various alleged criminal activities you and others here are accusing him of. What's there to speculate about there? You've pushed your views on that and I'm inclined to disagree with them because they are unsubstantiated.

What you call 'speculation' on Maharaji is, in fact, all the negative gossip, hearsay, lies and debunking that goes on here. So I'm not too frightened to 'speculate', I just can't be bothered agreeing with your speculation.

Of course I follow the 'speculative' comments here, I like to be informed what about what people think and provide some alternative, if unpopular, view points of my own (some even occassionally 'speculative').

The nub of the matter is, as usual, that I don't AGREE with your speculation

Once again, Jim, you moved so far out in the process of making some abstract point about me, that you've actually lost the context of your own argument. So your assertions about my fears regarding speculation are absolutely unfounded.

Mel

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 12:10:04 (EDT)
From: G-mom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Yes, you prove me point
Message:
Hey Jim,
Doesn't this well if he were the MOST despicable man remind you of the 'we've established what you are, now we are only quibbling over the price'?
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 03:26:30 (EDT)
From: Secret Agent Man
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Link to Pedophiles & Cults
Message:
Okay, my subject was a little misleading, but the author insists that the Catholic church is a cult.

Here's an interesting website called The Skeptic Tank (Jim, this Bud's for you!) with a series titled A Safe Heaven for Pedophiles - The epidemic of clergy child abuse.

While the topic is of pedophile priests in the Catholic church, much of it is applicable to Maharaji's Divine Light Mission - Elan Vital and Mahatma Jagdeo as the following excerpt indicates:

2: Christianity doesn't create child-abusing pedophiles in numbers lesser than or greater than any other deity-oriented religion. What the Christian clergy does provide is a safe heaven for pedophiles. If Christianity were to finally be educated out of the world populace, these pedophiles would find some other "excuse."

Seemingly lacking any higher ethics and morals, many leaders of Christian child molesters most often don't even report such crimes. Any normal organization or individual would turn these people over to a police authority for the horrible crimes they committ against children. Indeed, to not do so is complicity in the felony and, as you'll see in this series, is often grounds for a successful civil lawsuit against their church.

Rather than turn the criminal over to the police authorities, most child molesters within the Christian clergy are sent to in-house "treatment centers" where "psychological therapy" is provided. The parents of the abused child most often complains to the clergy first and, after learning the priesthood is doing nothing to protect other children from their pedophiles, report the sexual abuse to the police much later.

In many cases children don't report the abuse to their parents due to feelings of guilt and due to threats made by their parent's Christian leader. It is only after they're old enough to have a say-so in which church (if any) to attend that they come forward and expose their victimization. Sadly, this means that in many cases statutes of limitations can kick in and the criminals can't be make to pay for all of their crimes.

Since pedophiles rarely strike once, however, they eventually get reported by brave children who are specifically taught what bodily activities are not to be permitted by adults.

After they go through their period of "therapy," they often get shipped off to yet another church where, since their new congregations are never informed of their master's past, the cycle of abuse continues.

(NOTE: "Megan's Law" now makes the location of convicted sex offenders public knowledge. THIS IS A WIN FOR THE GOOD SIDE! Everyone who has worked to get Megan's Law passed has made it tougher for Christian clergy to hide their convicted child moslesters within our communities.)

Thus -- whether unintentionally or not -- the Christian clergy ends up being a safe dating service for pedophiles. Pedophiles may safely gravitate toward the Christian clergy fairly confident in the knowledge that even if they're ever reported or get caught, they'll simply be moved to yet another location and be provided with new children to abuse.

The excuse is usually the demand that the Christian's church will take care of the problem and that there's no need to bring in the authorities. The result is that literally hundreds of thousands of children have been raped or horribly murdered by Christian masters who -- since they're known child molesters -- should have been in jail at the time.

"Treatment" in the context the Christian clergy uses obtains a meaning quite different from that of non-Christians. In this new and deceptive context, "treatment" means taking the Christian leader out of service and away from the public eye long enough for the exposure to cool off -- or be forgotten by all but the victim and his or her family. Once "cured," the pedophile leader is simply shipped off to abuse more victims.

There are very strong economic reasons for churchs to not want to remove criminals from their ranks. When the number of lawsuits and the money paid to victims start to reach a certain percentage of the obscene revenues the Christian relgion takes in, then the religion will doubtless start to police its own. (When in doubt as to what motivates an organization, the most accurate rule is "Follow The Money!")

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 14:28:53 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Secret Agent Man
Subject: Re: Link to Pedophiles & Cults
Message:
The Catholic Church certainly has protected pedophiles in the past--Often sending them to new parishes where they had new pools of victims. But I think this has changed. Many very large judgments and settlements in the many millions of dollars that the church has had to pay to victims has raised the issue in the church. The church is having great difficulty getting insurance and they have been paying through the nose. According to some reports I have read, the church, at least in the US, is very proactive on the issue now, and parishoners are also much less trusting of the clergy around their children than they had been in the past. [I recall one story of how a priest visited the home of a catholic family in the 60s, and molested their daughter while the parents were in another room -- that's how much deference was given to the priests. Kind of like the way Jagdeo was treated, right?]
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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 16:59:03 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Hello, JW-nt
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 02:39:10 (EDT)
From: Secret Agent Man
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sex Offenders on the Web - Jagdeo?
Message:
An MSNBC article says that Oregon delays controversial web site that would list names of sex offenders.

It also says:

Other states already using the Internet for community notification include Alaska, Florida, Georgia, Kansas, North Carolina, Utah and Wisconsin.

Anybody got a picture of the poor old man Jagdeo the one who is about to get his 15 minutes of fame?

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:17:28 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Secret Agent Man
Subject: Re: Sex Offenders on the Web - Jagdeo?
Message:
Here's one. It's an old one, but Mahatmaji hasn't changed much since. A bit older of course, gray hair.
Last time I saw him was 95 or 96 in India, at Santyogashram, sitting with the Indian mahatmas, frontstage!

Mahatma Ji

Make a good use of it!

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:39:33 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Sex Offenders on the Web - Jagdeo?
Message:
Sheesh, I had no idea that Jagdeo that Jagdeo was making apperances so recently (95/96). Whn I tried to nake equiries about him al the premis I know said they nothing about him since the 80s.
On another one of M's great Mahatmas(whose name I will not mention for the moment), I shall email you privately.

Regards Jethro

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:30:24 (EDT)
From: S.A.M.
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sex Offenders sitting frontstage at the Lotus Feet of Maharaji!
Message:
Thanks!

Sheesh, now I've got to try to go to sleep.

What's the deal with Jagdeo's eyes? Does he have a glass eyeball?

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 02:12:09 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: none
To: All
Subject: Legal Begals Gather round
Message:
Given Glen's willingness to imply legal action at the drop of a hat I know an ex like me that gave up 6 years of earning's and life to LOTU can't get anything 20 years later but what about exes leaving now, could a class action suit be filed for loss of income or promises not kept?

It would be great if M and all his shadow coporate holders could be held financially responsible. This is the same same standard that Glen wants for M, surely he believes 'wronged' exes deserve the same rights to recovery from 'whatever-whoever-whereever-the-money leads'

I pesonally don't like what I call legal lotto but this may be a case I could get behind.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:36:39 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: An unavoidable necessity
Message:
There is something about all this which is not clear and which should be clarified if we are to discuss it. What abuse are we talking about here. There is a vast difference between a man touching up little girls and a man actually performing a sexual act with one of those girls.

People's immediate reaction when the term 'child abuse' is bandied about is to immediately throw up their hands in horror and condemn the abuser for the worst possible offence, i.e. rape. But there are varying levels of child abuse and while it is not a pleasant subject to talk about in detail, some clarification of what exacly is supposed to have happened would make things clearer.

A man touching young girls up could be considered to be an ill person who has to be helped to stop this behavour and prevented from doing so in the future. A man actually performing or trying to perform sexual acts such as oral sex, penitrative sex or masturbation with young girls is far more serious and he can be considered a real danger and threat to children.

In the end, if this subject is to continue to be discussed then the actual level of abuse will have to be made clear. It's unpleasant but unavoidable.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:39:18 (EDT)
From: g's mom
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Re: An unavoidable necessity
Message:
Sir Dave, I do not want to be cryptic but other victims, the younger ones, have reported more serious abuse than I have. I think this was planned on Jagdeo's part, I think he may have felt safer that younger children would be less likely to report it or undrestand it. I would go into detail but I think that soon these details will come out. If you provide your email I could be more specific. I will say though I have not heard yet of any abuse in which clothing was removed. Also, I did report the more serious allegations to Rawat as well as my own, so he had reason to know this had occured more than once and was more serious than what had happend to me.

I also think Jim's post is very to the point. The fact that this was occuring all over the world by someone was using his spiritual position to gain access to victims makes it quite serious.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:45:38 (EDT)
From: gmom
Email: None
To: sir dave
Subject: ps
Message:
I just read your post over and I am disturbed by the way you downplay the possible trauma to a victim of fondling. Because I was older I think I coped with the situation fairly well. I recognized that Jagdeo was a pervert and reported him to who I thought was the person best able to stop him. ( In that I was an idiot, I should have gone to the police ) BUT this type of abuse, done repetivily to a 8-12 year old, I think it could cause real harm to the victim, especially when she is torn about telling her parents about Mahatma Ji, could be VERY harmful and scary.
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:14:57 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Right (and wrong in a way too)
Message:
Dave,

The law's clear. Touching young girls like Jagdeo allegedly did is a serious criminal offence. No, it's not rape but men (and women) still goe to jail for it all the time. What's worse in Jagdeo's case are two things: he did it repeatedly to several kids and the breach of trust element. He was in a fiduciary relationship like any other clergyman towards his flock.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:03:37 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Child sexual abuse
Message:
I disagree with the distinction you make about different levels of child sexual abuse, Dave. I agree with you that some things would be worse for a child to experience than other things, but...

ANY sexual touching/fondling of a child's body is child abuse. So are any inappropriate adult sexual advances on a child. Try to put yourself in the child's shoes for a moment. A child's body is his/her own property (same for adults, actually.) When an adult misuses his/her power over a child in ANY sexual way--I don't give a shit if it's a french kiss--that constitutes sexual abuse.

Would you want some 'dirty old man' feeling up your daughter? Making out with her? Would you think, 'Oh, well, that's really not THAT bad? It could be worse.' Speaking for myself, I wouldn't! Put yourself her shoes for a moment and maybe you will see what I mean.

If Jadego was kissing children or feeling them up, certainly he should have been taken out of a position of power. I know that some people are drawn to children sexually, but to act on that feeling with a child is a violation of the child's rights. A child is not even old enough to have sexual feelings let alone to make decisions about a sexual life yet. He/she should not have any sexual acts forced on them.

That's my opinion and that is also how child sexual abuse is defined by the law here.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 12:20:27 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: What I meant
Message:
Thanks for your answers, G-Mom, Jim and VP. No, I wasn't trying to downplay anything but there's a legal difference between an adult making sexual advances to a child and actually performing a sexual act. Both are obviously harmful but one is more serious in the eyes of the law than the other.

The fact remains that if this man was known to have had this tendency to make sexual contact with children then he should have been taken out of circulation. The fact that he remained in circulation for so long with his tendency reported to Maharaji, is a damning indication of lack of care from Maharaji. Whether a legal case could be made against anyone about all this, remains to be seen.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 11:58:23 (EDT)
From: Dr Reich
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Re: Child sexual abuse
Message:
A child is not even old enough to have sexual feelings let alone to make decisions about a sexual life yet.

My predecessor and former mentor Herr Doktur Freud and I have forever established the FACT of infantile and childhood sexuality. That so said, ve agree wid what you say, othervise. Danka.

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 16:45:04 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Dr Reich
Subject: Freud and the female orgasm
Message:
Thanks, Doc!

I did misspeak (mistype...) Children do have physical sexual sensations. What I meant by feelings was the emotional side of sex. I should have said that children don't understand the emotional side of sex--aren't ready to deal with that part yet. (And their hormones aren't completely cookin' either, until puberty, of course.)

Happy Labor Day,
VP

P.S. It's a well established fact, here in the nineties, that some of S. Frued's findings were full of shit. Take that nonsense about the female orgasm, for example...;)

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 18:49:17 (EDT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: All/g
Subject: Mutiny on the Bootie
Message:
When are you guys going to get human? Get some perspective. Who's the real enemy? I mean really. Really. Really.
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 20:11:04 (EDT)
From: The Apostate
Email: apostate@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Q
Subject: Ok, let's talk...
Message:
Define 'human' so we know what you're talking about. What do you mean by 'perspective'? What do you mean by 'enemy'? What do you mean by 'Really...'? What do you mean by 'Really'?
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 21:58:27 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: The Apostate
Subject: Eye opener....Let's talk
Message:
Dear Q,

When are you guys going to get humane? It always bothered me because it was so easy to be 'nice' & 'good' for a short time in the presence of Miragi and then go out into the big wide world and be uncompassionate.I could count the number of compassionate premies on one hand. Sandy stood out like a sore thumb because she IS compassionate. Once I was at a traning programme where we were told to refuse presents that were given to m by his premies. I mentioned that I had observed Sandy receiving presents and that I really thought she would be too gracious to give them back to people. I was called out to the front and made to look stupid because of this. We mocked up me giving a present back. 'Now that wasn't so difficult was it? HO, Ho Ho. What a lack of compassion. Now I know better than to give m presents but a lot of premies of course would love to and it's a total rejection of their love.

Recently I have observed Instructors travelling the world at premies expense wearing expensive clothes & carrying lap top computors. Usually there are no new premies and this is a total waste of money. I see the like ofPeter Potter (m's money man) and Coordinators like Glen going around in expensive suites & leather brief cases (at premies expense) One coordinator told me 'Clothes maketh the man' - so be it - he was French!

My real drip drip experience, which I have mentioned here a few times was when I watched helplessly as a premie with a cane at the front of a bus queue was almost pushed over by a huge crowd of anxious premies pushing to get on a hotel bus. She was almost last to get on other than her husband & me. This was after a visitation with the living lord at Long Beach.

Did you say human? I said humane.

Liz.

Liz

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 22:24:11 (EDT)
From: Surreal Simon
Email: None
To: The Apostate
Subject: Re: Ok, let's talk...
Message:
Yes but what do you mean by what do you mean?
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 21:49:05 (EDT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: The Apostate
Subject: What do you mean by talk?
Message:
I mean remember that we share the same predicament. I mean cut the us/them manure. I mean who or what is really holding us back. I mean why not now?
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 21:24:54 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: The Apostate
Subject: Ok, let's ask Nigel by his new sexy meaningless monicker !!!
Message:
Get a Dictionary fantasy fairy
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 21:44:29 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: The English Language
Message:
Catweasel: You're advising someone to get a dictionary? I'm advising you to go back to 1st grade. Periods, commas, semicolons, colons etc. are your friends. Please learn how to write before you visit this site again. You are embarassing all your fellow cult members.

P.S. Learning about capitalization would also help your online presentation. Making five mistakes in a five word messagge is pathetic.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 03:16:54 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Try Strine Dickweed!!!
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: The English Language
Message:
Do you actually think I or any-body else really cares about your tiresome antiquated 'Grammar' ? Do you think that the posts presented are dependant on your twee interpretations ? Think again Grugg. I get plenty of positive feedback. OWRIGHT SUNSHINE !!!!!!
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 04:19:38 (EDT)
From: Negative Creep
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Positive Feedback coming your way here and now!
Message:
Positive feedback?

Aw, ain't that nice! Grumpy mean old Catweasel has a dog and he is responsible enough to feed it everyday. Proof that being in Maharaji's cult doesn't rot your brain entirely.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:18:28 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Sheep Dip Lane
To: Negative Creep
Subject: HEEL!! HEEL!! YOU BLOODY MONGREL!!!
Message:
I dont have a dog, but you'll do

< color red/>NOW GET HERE DICKHEAD!!!

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:31:54 (EDT)
From: Digger Dan
Email: Well let's help
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: HEEL!! HEEL!! YOU BLOODY MONGREL!!!
Message:
I dont have a dog but you'll do.

NOW GET HERE DICKHEAD!!!

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 13:34:04 (EDT)
From: Negative Creep
Email: None
To: Digger Dan
Subject: Thank you Digger Dan. Poor ol' Catweasel can't do anything right (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:26:44 (EDT)
From: The Feline Help and I.T Support Team
Email: With the Cat
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: HEEL!! HEEL!! YOU BLOODY MONGREL!!!
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 21:59:55 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Gregg
Subject: Re: The English Language
Message:
thank you for your messagge, Greggggg.

Mariannnnnnne

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 22:09:37 (EDT)
From: Q
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: The Englishhhh Languageeee
Message:
Which proves some exes have retained or regained their senses of humor.
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 22:22:58 (EDT)
From: Mmmmarianneee
Email: None
To: Q
Subject: Re: The Englishhhh Languageeee
Message:
When you have 4 biiigggg brotthhhhherrrrssss, you musssstttt haveeeee aaaaaa LAAAAARRRGGGEEEE sennnnnse of hhhhumorrrrr.
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 23:06:24 (EDT)
From: Gregg
Email: None
To: Mmmmarianneee
Subject: Hot Cha Cha
Message:
A question: can there be humor without language? (Can pre=lingual humanoids laugh?) is humor only a linguistic thing?. It could be, of course, that humor is a function of intelligence, like language, but..

gotta talk later....my child (w/ her two missing teeth) gots to go to bed. Cc - ya

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 16:33:09 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: All
Subject: Dear Anth...
Message:
Hi Everybody,

When I got home from holiday Sunday night, there was a letter waiting for me from Elan Vital, written by my friend Glen, about my Mahatama Jagpaedophile allegations. The letter was from Glen in his official capacity as a full-time official of Elan Vital.

I've exchanged a few personal letters on the subject with Glen, which, because they were personal, I've no intention of publishing. However, this one's official, from Elan Vital. It concerns matters that have been brought into the public domain by being published on this forum, and on the Ex-premie.org website. It also concerns people who post on, and read this site, so I don't really have any qualms about publishing it here.

(Glen, as your letter is on Elan Vital headed notepaper, and ends with a legal threat, I assume it's not personal, and didn't take it as such. Likewise, I hope you'll understand that this isn't in anyway personal either. Ooooh, I feel quite detached.)

I've written a reply to Glen, addresssing all his points. I'll post (snailmail) it in the morning. It would be rude to publish it here before he reads it himself, so I'll wait for a day or two before posting my reply.

I've retyped the original letter, including the spelling mistake in paragraph 2. I apologise if any typos got through.

So, the saga continues. Read on...

26 August 1999

Dear Anth,

I’ve noticed that you’ve made allegations about Mahatma Jagdeo, on the ex-premie.org website. These allegations are that he was involved in paedophilic activities.

You will recall that when you raised the matter with me privately in the early part of the year, my response was that I knew of no evidence to substantiate the claim or even to suspect that it was true. I am of course concerned that the allegations and your strength of belief being such that you have made this allegation publicly. As a result of this, I have conducted some enquiry but can find no evidence to substantiate the allegation, including any record of any contemporaneous or later complaint made by the alleged victim.

Allegations of this nature are of course extremely damaging. If untrue, they may destroy the life and reputation of an old man and of course may also cause damage to any victims of the alleged acts who might rather put the matter behind them or have it approached more discretely.

If however the allegations are true we would of course deplore any such activity and agree they should be exposed. If you have any further information which would assist an inquiry let me have that information as we would wish to pursue the matter with appropriate discretion as so as to cause least further distress to the alleged victim.

I should make it absolutely clear that Elan Vital was not aware of the allegations until you raised them recently, which raises the question of why you waited so may years before making them, and did not and would not approve of or condone such appalling behaviour.

Please take care that any publication on the internet or implication that Elan Vital or Maharaji knew of, approved of or condoned any such paedophile behaviour would be false and very damaging. We would have no option but to take legal advice.

Yours sincerely,

Glen Whittaker.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 11:04:25 (EDT)
From: Gmom
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: more
Message:
That being said what Jim is quoting here is very similar to what happend to my friend I mention in my Journey. For anyone who has ever doubted the seriousness or scope of the hurt Jagdeo caused, I think this makes it clear it was not isolated and that it was very serious.

This is why I am so furious that Rawat from every evidence ignored or at most slapped the hands of Jagdeo and sent him out again. Because you can bet he did this whereever he went and was alone with kids.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 06:15:42 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: heller@bc1.com
To: Jim
Subject: Oh yeah, I forgot
Message:
my email's above.
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 21:22:33 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Dear Anth...
Message:
Dear Anth,
God, he is dripping with concern for the 'victim'. It has been years yes, and does he think that the 'victim' has forgotten and that you are bringing up forgotten issues that the 'victim' would have rather left to rest! Jesus, that pisses me off. I am sure the 'victim (s)' think of it often if not everyday and although possibily somewhat painful that getting it out in the open and dealing with it can only, in the end, be empowering!
From what I've read here on this matter a long time ago, the discrete approach didn't work and was easily tossed aside so now the next effort must be stronger. I thank you for pushing this, you are helping all the 'victims'. I may not have been a victim but I have had similar experiences in my life and it makes me feel good that you are making a strong stand.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 12:56:02 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Thanks Robyn (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 23:22:50 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: All and Dear Robyn
Subject: Re: Dear Anth...
Message:
Robyn, I agree. You avoid the bullshit but yiou speak out when it matters. Without knowing you I know you are a good person.

Anth, do what you know to be right, without knowing you I can tell you are also, an honest person.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 12:56:59 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Thanks Enough(nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:50:37 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Re: Dear Anth...
Message:
Dear Enough,
God that was such a nice post to read, thank you so much and I have to agree that Anth is the salt of the earth and funny as well. :)
I know seeing your alias, haven't seen you around much lately, I think, that I couldn't remember exactly but I knew we'd had some exchanges and that I got a good feeling about you as well. Take good care.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 00:21:56 (EDT)
From: JW
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Glen is such a pathetic sod.
Message:
Poor old Glen. Where has he been? Has he bothered to read G's Mom's posts that are about a year old in which she talked about how Jagdeo molested her and some of friends when they were minors? Did his 'enquiry' include an interview of her, especially concerning that she had evidence that Maharaji was well aware of what Jagdeo was doing? Glen, where have you been? Just exactly what kind of enquiry did you perform, Glen? You see Glen, G's Mom did not wait many years to complain about this. She reported the problem 20 years ago, but apparently your little enquiry didn't uncover that. Did you actually ask Maharaji about that, or are you too chickenshit to do that?

Yes, Glen, I'm sure all you care about is protecting the victims. I'm sure that's all Jagdeo and Maharaji care about as well.

Glen, I recommend you get some legal advice. That might be a good idea.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 20:02:43 (EDT)
From: The Apostate
Email: apostate@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: AJW
Subject: Don't you just love Glen's impartial objectivity..? The guy's a scientist.
Message:
Please take care that any publication on the internet or implication that Elan Vital or Maharaji
knew of, approved of or condoned any such paedophile behaviour would be false...
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 19:56:25 (EDT)
From: The Apostate
Email: apostate@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: AJW
Subject: !!!
Message:
Allegations of this nature are of course extremely damaging. If untrue, they may destroy the
life and reputation of an old man and of course may also cause damage to any victims of the
alleged acts who might rather put the matter behind them or have it approached more
discretely.

Hell, let's call it off... You should never risk damaging the victims. Even more so, you can't go damaging an old mahatma's reputation just like that, can you?

(but doesn't he live in eternal bliss, or something? Water off a duck's arse etc...)

Let him swing.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 17:06:41 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Dear Anth...
Message:
Legal advice is quite a few steps from legal action. Wasn't this subject removed earliar to protect the victims?
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 18:14:39 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Ben Lurking
Subject: Silence is no protection.
Message:
Hi Ben,

I talked to the victims before posting this, and they both feel ok about what's happening. In fact, they're more than ok about it.

Like me, they're glad it's finally being dealt with. It's been ignored for far too long.

One of the victims told me she cracked open a can of Guiness to celebrate after hearing he'd been reported to the police and they were taking it seriously.

Anth

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 04:54:56 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Silence is no protection.
Message:
Dear Anth,
I am glad to read this post. I didn't mention g's mom because I didn't know if it would upset her. Like I said, empowering! :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 16:57:48 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: YEAH, BABY! EV comes out from under its rock.
Message:
Not speaking in any official capacity, I would urge Elan Vital or Maharaji to take legal advice. Getting some legal advice on alleged illegal activities would be a very prudent and long overdue thing to do.

And I would welcome Elan Vital to visit my website, Roger's House of Maharaji Drek, to examine it under its legal microscope. Elan Vital should especially check this out.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 16:49:06 (EDT)
From: g-mom
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Dear Anth...
Message:
Anth, I would like to say something along these lines to Mr. Whitaker,

If Mr. Rawat has told you that this is the first he has heard about Jagdeo being a child molester he is lying to you. There are two people you likely know well who both informed him of this many years ago. Anth would be happy to give you their names. I think it wise to take legal advise. I have, my advise was that the truth is the best defense.

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 05:00:09 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: g-mom
Subject: Re: Dear Anth...
Message:
Dear G's mom,
I have tears in my eyes for you and whomever the other person in this is and for the other victims that surely must exist.
I use to be a happy drunk years ago, don't drink at all now but I'd gladly through back a few in celebration, in spirit anyway! God I feel like dancing too. :)
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 18:22:44 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: g-mom
Subject: Dear g-mom
Message:
Hi g-mom,

I've told Glen the names of the two people you mentioned, in the letter I've written to him. I'll remove their names when I put the letter here, as I don't really think they need to be involved any more than being asked by Glen what they told whom. Like I say in my reply to Glen, I know both these premies personally, like and repect them, and am sure that they would have passed on whatever they were asked to.

Bravo g-mom.

First up on the barricade waving your sword.

Good for you.

Anth, brave in his bunker behind the lines.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 19:12:59 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Dear g-mom
Message:
- Joan of Arc! I'm getting my sword too. Can I stand next to you?

Marianne

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 16:48:09 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: david@xyzx.freeserve.co.uk
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Dear Anth...
Message:
That's fine Glen, no doubt the situation will sort itself out and find its own level. What bugs me though, is the claim made by Elan Vital these days that it is a totally different organisation to the old Divine Light Mission and not connected to the old Divine Light Mission.

We all know that this is poppycock, don't we.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 17:03:34 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: EV is DLM
Message:
Be sure to read my post below titled What is Elan Vital? This is an official pamphlet from Elan Vital that indicates it was founded in 1971. At least this is for the U.S.

LIARS!

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:27:26 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Urgetn message for Jagdeo
Message:
Mahatma Ji, it appears that you should not attend this year's Amtext pin and plaque ceremony in Malibu. Ask to have yours delivered.:

Calif. OKs Old Molestation Cases

Filed at 11:06 a.m. EDT
By The Associated Press

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- The California Supreme Court has opened the door for prosecutors to try alleged child molesters for crimes they are accused of committing decades ago.

The court's 4-3 ruling Monday upheld a 1994 state law that allows molestation charges to be filed within a year of the case being reported to authorities, regardless of when the crime occurred.

In most other cases in California, prosecutors must file charges within six years of the alleged crime.

The ruling, which is expected to affect dozens of California cases already in the legal pipeline, contradicted decisions by courts in some other states that such laws are unconstitutional.

In his majority opinion, Justice Marvin Baxter wrote that the Legislature crafted the law out of recognition that young victims often have difficulty remembering and reporting traumatic abuse at the hands of adults, particularly adults who breach positions of trust.''

The law, he wrote, does not violate the Constitution since it leaves the definition of the crime and length of potential sentence unchanged.

Supporters of the law said it provided adequate safeguards against false accusations being brought forward years later. Among its provisions is one allowing prosecutors to file charges only when the accusation is supported by independent evidence, which cannot not consist of a psychiatric opinion.

Charles Sevilla, who represented the defense group California Attorneys for Criminal Justice, said the ruling would lead to prosecutions based on dubious evidence, including the scientifically questionable theory of recovered memory.

As time passes, memory erodes, accuracy diminishes and biases and distortions cloud the accuracy of recall,'' he said.

The court ruled specifically in the case of Raymond L. Frazer, charged in Mendocino County in 1996 with molesting a girl under age 14 in 1984.

The deadline for prosecution expired in 1990, but the prosecutor, relying later on the 1994 law, filed the charge within a year of the time the alleged victim came forward.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 14:09:02 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Urgent message for Jagdeo
Message:
Oh yes! I was just about to post this information myself. I have read the complete decision of the California Supreme Court. Readers should understand that this decision applies to cases prosecutable in the state of California. That means that any sexual assault victims of Jagdeo, if any exist, who were assaulted by him in California, may be able to bring criminal charges even though years have passed since the incidents occurred.

This prosecution could ostensibly be extended to anyone who aided and abetted any sexual molestation which might have been committed by Jagdeo in the state of California.

Hmmmm. Marianne

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 23:02:39 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Urgent message for Jagdeo
Message:
Do you know of Darrow's famous plea for Leopold and Loeb? The Psychiatrists where known as Alienists then, even Freud!
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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 15:00:03 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Enough
Subject: Leopold & Loeb
Message:
Hi Enough! Yes, I have read Clarence Darrow's speech many times. I often re-read it when I am trying to write about my death row clients in court papers.

BTW Enough, your posts are great. Up above, you seem to have convinced JHS Gabriel to assume a new name.

Take care, Marianne

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Date: Fri, Sep 03, 1999 at 08:31:33 (EDT)
From: IHS Gabriel
Email: jhs_gabriel@writeme.com
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: Leopold & Loeb
Message:
Well Well Well
Gabriel...
NOT 'have convinced' : 'they' just do NOT let me get thru via JHS
JHS
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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 00:45:24 (EDT)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: ot-Jerry-Way
Message:
My guess is that Jerry and Way also have other
names here.
Anyway, excuse my absence at the tea party we were
having. I caught that bug going around.
I need a couple more days.

Since i used this thread to butt in with a message,
I'll end it with an on topic comment.
I hope we are able to at least file charges at
jagdeo.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 11:55:48 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Trebinanand anyone?
Message:
In '74, sometime after Amherst, I believe, Mahatma Trebinanand, a fat, dour, middle-aged saint who, like other great souls, travelled the land as channels of Guru Maharaj Ji's Grace, brutally raped a girl in Regina, Saskatchewan.

Patty didn't take it well. This may or may not have been a function of her relatively modest spiritual development and inability to see Maharaj Ji in everything. I'm not sure. But I do know that she flipped out, carved an 'x' in her forehead and was hospitalized in a psychiatric institution for some considerable time.

Does anyone know what ever happened to mahatma-ji?

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Date: Thurs, Sep 02, 1999 at 09:25:37 (EDT)
From: RT
Email: ommmm
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Trebinanand anyone?
Message:
Jim, I received K from this rascal in 1974. The fink made me travel to another city 3 hrs away and stay in an ashram a week at my exopense...I had just crashed my car (minor) and this pronouncement caused me to abandon the small claims and repairs to my parents. Such is the Power of that Love. Self ish or self love? Ha!

Later the community buzz was that this mafatma slept with a sister' and was sent back to India. That's all I recall.

I wish I had never met him. I regret, and so forget.

what was the question?
RT

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 15:03:55 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Trebinanand anyone?
Message:
Dear Jim,

Do you know what happened to Patty. Where is she now?

Love,

Liz

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 16:44:41 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: Jim
Subject: Trebinanand
Message:
Hi Jim,

Was the crime reported to the police?

Anth

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 23:05:19 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Trebinanand
Message:
Don't know. Don't know. I was already out of the community and only heard about it later. But a lot of western Canadian premies knew about it. It was quite the story. Her sister, whom I love dearly, still loves the hell out of guruji by the way.
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:24:11 (EDT)
From: Ben Luking
Email: Ben Lurking
To: Jim
Subject: Re: SP=Trevinanand(?) NT
Message:
nt
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:30:13 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Ben Luking
Subject: Either or?
Message:
Ben,

He was fat and middle-aged. Does that help?

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:33:28 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Either or?
Message:
I just thought if you were going to do some legal snooping around you may want what I thought the correct name was - although my brain is old and withered from squezzing my eyeballs while driving.
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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 22:13:28 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: All
Subject: What is Elan Vital?
Message:
I found an undated (1990s) pamphlet titled:

Elan Vital, Inc.
... extending
Maharaji's message
across the world

Elan Vital, Inc. was founded in Colorado in 1971 to promote Maharaji's message in the United States and worldwide. Since its inception as a U.S. non-profit corporation, Elan Vital, Inc. has organized and sponsored thousands of events to which Maharaji has been invited to present his message. In addition, Elan Vital, Inc. provides support to international tours and events held in more than 50 countries by organizations that share its purposes.

From small conferences and seminars to large international conventions, these events enable hundreds of thousands of people to hear Maharaji's message each year. As a result, the number of people who receive Knowledge has grown to more than 10,000 per year.

Elan Vital, Inc., under the name Visions International, produces and distributes video-tapes, audio cassettes, and publications of Maharaji's addresses to more than 60 countries.

Elan Vital, Inc. is also cooperating in the development of indoor and outdoor conference facilities (Knowledge Centers) for large international events and for Knowledge seminars.

Interest in Maharaji's message continues to grow as it reaches more and more countries around the world. In response to this unique challenge, Elan Vital, Inc. is committed to contributing to the success of ever-expanding international tours and events.

It is the direct participation of each individual that makes a difference worldwide.

So there! Elan Vital is not Divine Light Mission!

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 19:40:59 (EDT)
From: The Apostate
Email: apostate@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: The origin of the term... (as if you cared)
Message:
Elan Vital meaning 'vital force', 'essential subservience' or sumfink comes from the French. The 19th c. philosopher Henri Bergson cooked it up after a heavy night on the waccy baccy, We are talking Ronnie Dustcarts and his famous, but stupid, mind-body solution: 'I think therefore I am ... (thoughtful?) ' revisited.

As someone famous whose name I forget once put it: saying that human beings are powered by elan vital is a bit like saying steam trains run on energie locomotif.

Bloody stupid.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 17:18:58 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Do they believe that EV not equal DLM?
Message:
When they say that Elan Vital is not Divine Light Mission do they really believe that? Do they think that we are going to believe that?

This is just pathetic that they think that they can play that game with us. We've got the corporate records that shows a name change from DLM to Elan Vital.

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