Forum IV: The Ex-Premie Forum
Archive: 2
From: Thurs, Aug 26, 1999 To: Sat, Sep 11, 1999 Page: 4 Of: 5


Brian -:- New Journeys Entry -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:56:39 (EDT)
__ Aussie ex -:- Re: New Journeys Entry -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 19:18:17 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Re: New Journeys Entry -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 18:33:10 (EDT)
__ Liz -:- Re: New Journeys Entry -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 12:32:48 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- Sad news -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 09:16:45 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- Re: Bushey -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 06:57:55 (EDT)
__ __ Toby -:- Re: Bushey -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 09:26:08 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jethro -:- Thanks for the info(NT) -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:24:49 (EDT)
__ barney -:- Re: Sad news -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 14:46:36 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: Sad news -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 05:03:53 (EDT)
__ Liz -:- Re: Sad news -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 12:37:39 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Bruno was a GREAT guy -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 13:00:32 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: Sad news -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:52:14 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Sorry to hear that -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:52:05 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- ExHippies misery -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 12:56:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ microvolt -:- Bruno -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 13:55:14 (EDT)

The Minister -:- For Moral Interference@Gods Side -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 04:42:33 (EDT)
__ Father Roger E. Drek -:- For Reality check read Worshipping the Absurd -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 14:30:33 (EDT)
__ __ Mel the revisionist -:- Reality check for yesteryear... -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 00:56:59 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jerry -:- Ancient academic nonsense -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 08:57:13 (EDT)
__ __ __ Father Roger E. Drek -:- Yeah, yesteryear in 1997 -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 02:49:53 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ The Very Venerable and Holier Catweasel -:- Re: Yeah, yesteryear in 1997 -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:10:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Move along, Catweasel -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:23:10 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Roger has a Colourful Movement [OOPS !!] -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:43:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Roger has a Colourful Movement -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:40:49 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Goodnight you little weasel! -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:49:25 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Pop !! goes the weasel! -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 04:19:22 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ Ben Lurking -:- Re: Pop !! goes the weasel! -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:31:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ The Very Venerable and Holier Catweasel -:- Re: Yeah, yesteryear in 1997 -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:09:18 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Mel, You're like a cheap suit -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 01:58:31 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mel Bourne -:- Trying to fit.... -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:40:52 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Catweasel -:- Re: Mel, You're like a cheap suit -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:12:20 (EDT)
__ Liz -:- Re: For Moral Interference@Gods Side -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 12:41:15 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- I do! I do! -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:56:18 (EDT)
__ Enough -:- Re: For Moral Interference@Gods Side -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:36:58 (EDT)
__ __ Enough -:- Re: For Moral Interference@Gods Side -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:39:46 (EDT)
__ Jethro -:- Re: For Moral Interference@Gods Side -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 08:43:16 (EDT)
__ The Apostate -:- Ministry of Silence? -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 06:38:19 (EDT)
__ __ The Minister -:- Re: Ministry of Silence? -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:36:11 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- A professional astrologer? What's that? -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 11:12:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Nemisis -:- Re: A professional astrologer? What's that? -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 12:14:19 (EDT)

JHB -:- For Mad Jon: Your writings are safe -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 16:36:10 (EDT)

Jim -:- A contest, Roger? -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 14:05:37 (EDT)
__ People's Poet -:- Re: A contest, Roger? -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 07:40:39 (EDT)
__ __ Walt Whitman -:- Not bad, really -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 16:01:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ Jim -:- Oh, come now, Walt -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:17:41 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Walt -:- Give it some slack, Jim -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 03:11:40 (EDT)
__ Roger Crass Drek -:- One problem with that -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 14:30:34 (EDT)

JHB -:- Sunday Express - Not This Week -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 04:06:30 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Doncha love the Internet? -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 06:14:24 (EDT)
__ __ Robyn -:- Re: Doncha love the Internet? -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 09:14:00 (EDT)

Marianne -:- JHB: LOTU Tip -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 22:23:24 (EDT)
__ VP -:- Just saw you, Marianne -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 12:38:51 (EDT)
__ __ Marianne -:- Re: Just saw you, Marianne -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 17:53:22 (EDT)
__ Robyn -:- Re: JHB: LOTU Tip -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 09:17:14 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Get a wig Marianne (nt) -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 07:18:18 (EDT)
__ JHB -:- Re: JHB: LOTU Tip -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 04:41:57 (EDT)

Runamok -:- David Lane's Changes -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 20:00:24 (EDT)
__ AJW -:- Re: David Lane's Changes -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 06:39:41 (EDT)
__ Anon -:- Re: David Lane's Changes -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 05:49:53 (EDT)
__ Mili -:- Re: David Lane's Changes -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 22:06:29 (EDT)
__ __ Dr Wormfood -:- Your answer, Mili... -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 16:21:39 (EDT)
__ __ AJW -:- What baby? -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 07:02:38 (EDT)
__ __ Runamok -:- Re: David Lane's Changes -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 23:18:45 (EDT)
__ __ __ Mili -:- Re: David Lane's Changes -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 03:37:24 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: David Lane's Changes -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 12:13:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Struggling with Knowledge -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 09:28:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Jerry -:- Disqualifying Knowledge -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 23:47:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Jim -:- Roger, here's a keeper (IMHO) -:- Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 20:41:32 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Your lack of understanding -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 04:39:45 (EDT)
__ Willow -:- Re: David Lane's Changes -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 20:29:12 (EDT)
__ __ Cedar Bud -:- Re: David Lane's Changes -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 12:44:26 (EDT)
__ __ __ Hemlock -:- Synchronicity -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 14:59:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Arsenic -:- Re: Synchronicity -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 16:41:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ Arsenic -:- What I do apologize for... -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 21:16:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ __ Hemlock -:- Re: What I do apologize for... -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 21:39:04 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Runamok -:- Re: Synchronicity -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 16:30:01 (EDT)
__ __ Firefly -:- Ditto (NT) -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 05:40:01 (EDT)

Jim -:- Why do you have to do this? -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 14:47:03 (EDT)
__ barney -:- No link feature and short subject -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 16:18:28 (EDT)
__ Jim -:- Re: Why do you have to do this? -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 14:55:03 (EDT)
__ __ Jim -:- And here's a bit of a joke -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 15:00:03 (EDT)
__ __ __ Seymour -:- Life's a joke -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 08:56:50 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Mili -:- Here's another joke -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 11:33:37 (EDT)

The Spin Doctor -:- The Unknowing -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 08:33:19 (EDT)
__ Pauline Premie -:- Re: The Unknowing -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 15:14:28 (EDT)
__ __ Roger E. Drek -:- Silly premies worshipping the absurd -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 17:01:23 (EDT)
__ __ __ A shaken Mel -:- My premie dreamworld in tatters... -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 21:45:06 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Jerry -:- This nonsense -:- Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 08:22:33 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Sir Dave -:- Re: My premie dreamworld in tatters... -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 22:04:09 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ __ CD -:- Flavors of reality -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 03:29:39 (EDT)
__ __ A Premie -:- Don't flatter me sister -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 16:55:17 (EDT)
__ __ __ AJW -:- A vehicle -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 07:58:30 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ JHB -:- Re: A vehicle -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 08:19:07 (EDT)
__ __ __ Tulsidas -:- Poke out your eyes with a hot poker, my brother (NT) -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 17:03:35 (EDT)

Jean-Michel -:- New documents -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 03:53:10 (EDT)
__ me -:- Re: New documents -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 23:19:41 (EDT)
__ __ Jean-Michel -:- Re: New documents -:- Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 05:03:09 (EDT)

Hihomumio -:- Last to know? -:- Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 22:33:37 (EDT)
__ CD -:- Re: Last to know? -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 03:07:27 (EDT)
__ Marianne -:- What do you think? -:- Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 22:43:30 (EDT)
__ __ Hihomumio -:- Re: What do you think? -:- Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 22:53:40 (EDT)
__ __ __ URL -:- Re: What do you think? -:- Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 16:37:39 (EDT)
__ __ __ CD -:- Re: What do you think? -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 03:11:00 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ Hihomumio -:- Here's what I think -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 08:41:46 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ AJW -:- Hey CD -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 06:28:01 (EDT)
__ __ __ __ barney the vigilante -:- Git a rope! -:- Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 04:21:05 (EDT)


Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:56:39 (EDT)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: All
Subject: New Journeys Entry
Message:
I put Libby's Journeys entry online this morning. Yet another female Australian ex-premie (guessing from her email address). What's wrong with the men down under? Are they ALL stupid???
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 19:18:17 (EDT)
From: Aussie ex
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Re: New Journeys Entry
Message:
G'day Libby
I just tried to send you an e-mail, using the address on your journey, but it bounced. Would love to get in touch. Brian, that sounds like a valid e-mail address, could you just check it's okay?
Thanks for your journey, Libby. I too am glad things have worked out well for you.

Another Aussie

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 18:33:10 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Libby
Subject: Re: New Journeys Entry
Message:
Hi Libby,

I just read your journey. Thanks for posting it. You sound like you're doing ok with life. Great your family saw the light too. I loved the ending.

Anth the Journeyman

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 12:32:48 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Re: New Journeys Entry
Message:
Dear Libby,

I appreciated your journey very much. I could relate to the 'doormat syndrome' I have felt like a door mat for many years and now I don't - I wonder why?

I'm glad you had the opportunity to get a degree and that you left early enough to get your life back together, unlike me who only just left after 29 years.

Love & Kind Regards,

Liz

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 09:16:45 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sad news
Message:
Sad news. I've just learned today on the french forum, the death of one of my best premie friend, Bruno de Galzain.
He died of a lungs cancer.
He was one of the 1st premies, back in the early 70s, and I guess many premies came to know him.
He did dedicate his life to spread m's message in the 70s. He had been a personal friend of m and his brother. M sent him to Hong-Kong at that time.
Bruno has never been a 'good premie', and m fired him from his position a long time ago. He became then a 'fringe' premie, and had a hard time with
knowledge and his former Rawat friends.
I could say a lot about him. I loved him very much, he was a great guy, and he had lots of great 'darshan stories' to tell. His life was also
some kind of a fairy tale in the 70s.
We did a great trip together in India in 1973-74, visited together some great holy places, and had a wonderful time.
He (and his wife) died in misery.
Because of my involvement, I broke most of my ties with him, because he was not a 'good premie'. He and his friends were 'problems' in his community.
And I lost touch with him. Maybe he wouldn't feel so at ease with me because of my former position.
I regret I haven't been in touch with him at the end of his life.
I think he felt abandonned and lonely.
Because none of his former dreams ever came true.
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 06:57:55 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Bushey
Message:
Heelo JM, Did you know the instructor called Bushey(I think he was German or French) and what happened to him?
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 09:26:08 (EDT)
From: Toby
Email: toby4u@01019freenet.de
To: Jethro
Subject: Re: Bushey
Message:
Buschi was a german instructor
he died of an overdose of heroin and was found dead sitting
in a car on 'Kurfuerstendamm' in Berlin in the middle of the 80´ies.
His brother and some friends still doubt that this was suicide.
Maharajis comment on this was:
'What a pitty shame'.
Thats what I have heard:
I knew Buschi personally and I was present in Berlin at that time.
I hope , I could help you.

Toby

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:24:49 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: Toby
Subject: Thanks for the info(NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 14:46:36 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Sad news
Message:
Sorry to hear that.

It is also sad that we ostracized people who didn't not fit into the category of being a good premie. I think that many of us have done that. Interesting now that we're out of the cult we see the damage of that and, perhaps, we see that those fringe premies were really more together than we ever thought.

J-M, did you know Francois, a fellow Frenchman, who was often in the U.S.? What happened to him? I met him in the mid 70's.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 05:03:53 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: barney
Subject: Re: Sad news
Message:
J-M, did you know Francois, a fellow Frenchman, who was often in the U.S.? What happened to him? I met him in the mid 70's

François is a very common name in France. No idea of his family name ?

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 12:37:39 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Sad news
Message:
Dear JM,

I DO remember Bruno from the early days. I felt sad reading your story about him. What happened that his wife died in misery also? It made me realize that whether Miragi keeps you or drops you, you are like his puppet on a string and are destined to a kind of misery one way or another.

Best Regards,

Liz

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 13:00:32 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Liz
Subject: Bruno was a GREAT guy
Message:
He was a great billiant guy. Not very much the sort of person you usually meet. We had a fantastic time travelling together, one of the best experiences in my life.
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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:52:14 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: Sad news
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,
I am so sorry to hear that your friend died and in the way he did. His sickness and his loneliness. I am glad you have this place to write your feelings and tell us about Bruno.
Thanks JM.
Love,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:52:05 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Sorry to hear that
Message:
Sorry to hear that, JM.

What do you mean by saying that he 'and his wife' died in misery?

Again, my condolences.

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 12:56:17 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: ExHippies misery
Message:
Bruno was basically an ex-hippie, and never recovered from this.

I don't want to go into his life's details. He never tried to live according to society's standards. He was an artist, a painter. He tried to live from his art. Never really could. He believed in God and his manifestation through m. Of course that never brought him anything on the material level.
He used to live with a small community of friends having more or less the same kind of beliefs. They were more or less banned from satsang and meetings. M wouldn't answer his messages anymore, when they used to be very closed in the 70s. Had a hard time borrowing videos. I remember I gave them once plenty of old one for free, when I was in charge of video distribution. Of course I never told it to other EV responsible.

They would live like tramps for about 10 years. Then he finally settled in London with his wife, living from the UK charity. Then his wife got sick and died from lack of good medical treatment. It's not easy to get medical care in UK when you're poor. And he also died a few years later.

That's about it!

One of his friends was posting on the French forum under an alias. I knew him, he wouldn't say who he was, until I finally understood.

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 13:55:14 (EDT)
From: microvolt
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Bruno
Message:
JM,
sorry to hear about Bruno. Actually, he was quite known also outside France. I didn't know him personally, though.
For all that I know, he was really a great guy. I'm sorry for your loss.

M made a mess of, or contributed in messing up, so many people's lives.

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 04:42:33 (EDT)
From: The Minister
Email: Heavensgate;The NIKE Corp.net .us
To: All
Subject: For Moral Interference@Gods Side
Message:
Do any of you fools think this continuing personal attack on Mr Cainer does anything other than put a spotlight on your total lack of ethics , your callous indifference to the sensitivity and feelings of other people and your hunger to sesationalise the mundane and uninteresting view of the past you continue to live with? Try Oil Painting
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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 14:30:33 (EDT)
From: Father Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: The Minister
Subject: For Reality check read Worshipping the Absurd
Message:
Minister,

While the research paper Worshipping the Absurd by Foss and Larkin on Jean-Michel's website The Elan Vital - Divine Light Mission Papers was written in the 70's, it is still very applicable and you know it and I know it because I recently exited the cult within the last two years.

Premies will let Maharaji and his cronies off the hook because they believe that Maharaji is God and his mission is paramount. Sure, you're going to say that Maharaji has never said that he was god and doesn't claim to be now. However, actions speak louder than words and his behavior and the behavior of premies continue to make the claim that Maharaji is Lord of the Universe.

You can reply with all sorts of revisionist garbage to our claim, but WE KNOW.
However, I warn you that there is information there that will rock your dreamworld.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 00:56:59 (EDT)
From: Mel the revisionist
Email: None
To: Father Roger E. Drek
Subject: Reality check for yesteryear...
Message:
Roger

'scuse me for butting in here, but as I said in a previous post in relation to 'Worshipping the Absurd', a fascinating view of DLM in the 70's, but nothing that would particularly 'rock' anything, especially an experience of Knowledge.

Roger, you must try harder to convince premies that they are deluded rather than trotting out some ancient academic nonsense like this, it's a great thesis to get a degree 25 years ago, but is hardly reflective of the current situation.

Mel

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 08:57:13 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mel the revisionist
Subject: Ancient academic nonsense
Message:
Mel,

Like, I mentioned in a post below, your 'experience' is rooted in such 'nonsense'? BTW, is that what you were calling it back then, 'ancient academic nonsense'? Or wasn't it more like the 'God's honest truth', all this Lord Of The Universe talk, Maharaji's 'grace' and 'lila' stuff? How did you look at it back then, Mel?

You have to consider the effect this belief system had on your experience. The 'experience' was awash in it. In fact, it was a common belief, which I'm almost certain you shared, that if not for the grace of Guru Maharaji, there would be NO experience.

So, back then, when you first had your 'experience', it was drenched in this hocus pocus, mumbo jumbo. Right? What makes you so sure it no longer is?

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 02:49:53 (EDT)
From: Father Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Mel the revisionist
Subject: Yeah, yesteryear in 1997
Message:
Ok, I'm very much intrigued by the Worshipping the Absurd paper. Had I read it back in the 70's it would have most likely clicked intellectually with me, but I'm sure that as an real believer back then I would have seriously discounted it and stayed in the cult.

However, you are not talking to someone who has had no contact with Maharaji's cult since the 70's. Nope, I stuck it out until only recently. So, I know what's going on. Sure, it's a much kinder and gentler cult today. I've been to the videos, the Long Beach events, the 25th anniversary in Miami. Oh, yeah, it's changed. It's shiny and slick today. You got your trinket halls with overpriced Maharaji and swan shotskis (sp?) The videos and the programs start on atomic time. It's much more predictable and programmed right down to the lip-synched music (sheesh!)

However, underlying all the superficial surface changes lies the same guru/Lord of the Universe worship and blindness regarding Maharaji and his human characteristics. Ok, I'll grant you that modern premies are more allowing that Maharaji is human just as Maharaji is showing more of a human side of himself as well.

Still there are the happy clappers who erupt into spontaneous applause when Maharaji strongly alludes that HE is GOD! Don't, please don't tell me that this isn't true because I've been there my brother. After all, that's one of the damn reasons everybody is there. And there still is the Don't miss this event peer pressure.

Am I talking about a minority hardcore faction of fanatics. No, not really. I'll agree that the soft selling of Knowledge even up to receiving Knowledge contains few, if any, Lord of the Universe references. Ok, that's a good thing, an improvement. But, if these newcomers stick around long enough and are allowed to attend the PWK-Only videos the secret message is allowed to subtly slip out. And don't tell me that it is only a minority faction because Maharaji himself alludes strongly of his divinity and that Knowledge is the One True path to whatever you want to call that beautiful, beautiful experience inside. Don't get me wrong about a beautiful inner experience. That is a personal reality that is available to many people even ex-premies who still meditate. And the point is that one does not need Maharaji (aka Lord of the Universe) to get one's self that inner experience.

And Maharaji is what's wrong with the whole damn thing and that's why Worshipping the Absurd is still valid. The changes are all just superficial. Nothing has really changed. Although, I bet that the PAMs (Persons Around Maharaji) are probably more vicious and secretive than ever before because they've tasted the money and they have seen what Maharaji has got. Of course, this isn't true for David Smith because he gets off on being sadistic.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:10:11 (EDT)
From: The Very Venerable and Holier Catweasel
Email: Two Years...Yeah Rog , not SO long ago????
To: Father Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Yeah, yesteryear in 1997
Message:
You want to come over here Mr Drek and let the blowflies crawl in and out of your nose;that way you'll get a taste of the continuing reality of life .' You wouldn't be dead for Quids!!!!!' Guess what Roger, its still evolving ! And what you claim just simply is'nt true. Good drama, but not true!
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:23:10 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: The Very Venerable and Holier Catweasel
Subject: Move along, Catweasel
Message:
Catweasel!

Take your foul crap and lousy punctuation out of here.

Go back to Anything Goes

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:43:49 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Anything Goes??
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Roger has a Colourful Movement [OOPS !!]
Message:
ROGER. E. DREK!!

No and it's still GREAT DRAMA but NOT TRUE !!!

SEE YOU BACK THERE !! P.S Were you ever in advertising ??

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:40:49 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Anything Goes??
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Roger has a Colourful Movement
Message:
ROGER. E. DREK!!

No and it's still GREAT DRAMA but NOT TRUE !!!

SEE YOU BACK THERE !! P.S Were you ever in advertising ??

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:49:25 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Goodnight you little weasel!
Message:
Catweasel,

How appropriate is your name. Are you having some special kind of moment where you need to post every message twice?

Goodnight, CastratedWeasel. I don't wish to waste any more of my time with you.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 04:19:22 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: Rooty Hill RSL
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Pop !! goes the weasel!
Message:
Oh your Majesty , I am so honoured. But by what device have you devined my Gender [ or lack of it ?] Its tough on this old Commodore 64, and I get the double vision you know ? BE STILL YOU FOOL!!
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:31:32 (EDT)
From: Ben Lurking
Email: None
To: Catweasel
Subject: Re: Pop !! goes the weasel!
Message:
Actually you are on a WIN 95 machine or using a WIN 95 browser, not a comadore.
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:09:18 (EDT)
From: The Very Venerable and Holier Catweasel
Email: Two Years...Yeah Rog , not SO long ago????
To: Father Roger E. Drek
Subject: Re: Yeah, yesteryear in 1997
Message:
You want to come over here Mr Drek and let the bowflies crawl in and out of your nose;that way you'll get a taste of the continuing reality of life .' You wouldn't be dead for Quids!!!!!' Guess what Roger, its still evolving ! And what you claim just simply is'nt true. Good drama, but not true!
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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 01:58:31 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mel the revisionist
Subject: Mel, You're like a cheap suit
Message:
Mel,

Maybe it's just me but it strikes me that nothing you say really fits, you know? Like it's all a bit off somehow. Any idea why that is? Mel, can you work with me on this. I'm trying to open my heart to you and respect you as a completely well-adjusted, video-appreciating, Grateful, Understanding Person who Practices. But somehow I just think of you as a very ineffective polemicist.

Any idea why? Really, Mel, work with me. I want to LOVE you, brother.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 06:40:52 (EDT)
From: Mel Bourne
Email: mbvictoria@hotmail.com
To: Jim
Subject: Trying to fit....
Message:
....nothing you say really fits, you know? Like it's all a bit off somehow....somehow I just think of you as a very ineffective polemicist

Hi Jim

I'll take your comments on face value and attempt to answer the question...

Jim, there's a fundamental difference to the way you relate to Maharaji and Knowledge and the way I relate far deeper than the obvious disagreement between a 'premie' and an 'ex'. I think it's based on the whole way you have always related to the issue. You and alot of other ex's (and premies) relate to the issue on a 'personality' basis, ie Maharaji's personality. You still have the conditioned belief that all this depends on a belief that Maharaji is this or that, or should behave in a certain way. Maharaji hasn't met up to your expectations so you have rejected him, as well as knowledge and everything associated with him. Indeed, your disappointment in unfulfilled 'divine' expectations not met is so great that all your attacks are 'personality' based both on him and anyone associated with him.

For me the fundamental key is the experience of Knowledge, and not Maharaji's 'divine' attributes (or lack of).
My respect for or 'gratitude' to Maharaji is based on this experience, not his personality or behaviour. Indeed, I don't particularly feel comfortable with his apparent wealth or with some of the allegations that are made against him on this site. Irrespective of this, however, is the fact that, for me, Knowledge works, and as I have said before, it is this personally undeniable fact alone that puts me on Maharaji's side. If it was personality based for me, then I could like or dislike a his personality, if it was behaviour based for me then I could agree or disagree with his behaviour, but it's not based there, it's based on my experience of Knowledge and how I perceive it's value and influence in my life.

For me Maharaji fits in as the 'source', not in a cosmic or 'shakti' sense, but literally as the person from whom I heard about the experience, was willing to try it and found that it personally worked.

So my loyalty to Maharaji is not based on who he may or may not be, or what he should or shouldn't do. Maybe if Knowledge didn't work for me then I would reject Maharaji, but this has not been the case.

This is why what I have to say to you doesn't 'fit', you expect me to be a premie emotionally enamoured of Maharaji, probably in much the same way as you may have been...but I'm not. I had tremendous difficulty with the emotional/devotional excesses of other premies and to a large extent still do, but I have learnt over the years what is important to value.

I don't really expect you to understand where I'm coming from Jim, you obviously have your own entrenched views, but I've tried anyway...
Mel

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 03:12:20 (EDT)
From: Catweasel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Mel, You're like a cheap suit
Message:
Jim
Your just cheap. Cheap and full of Hate.
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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 12:41:15 (EDT)
From: Liz
Email: None
To: The Minister
Subject: Re: For Moral Interference@Gods Side
Message:
Sorry Minister,

But I have become much more ethical since I left the cult.

I am also not giving Jonnathan Cainer a hard time either.

Love,

Liz

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:56:18 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The Minister
Subject: I do! I do!
Message:
I do/ I think it does all sorts of other things. Lots. Care to guess what they are?
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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:36:58 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Re: For Moral Interference@Gods Side
Message:
I didn't want to start a new post to be above JM's very sad post-so, I thought this would be appropriate.

This is for those of you like me who are still asking themselves the question, 'What the hell was I thinking?'. It is fairly comprehensive as a resource.
www.religiousmovements.org

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:39:46 (EDT)
From: Enough
Email: None
To: all
Subject: Re: For Moral Interference@Gods Side
Message:
Sorry-in case this doesn't work--it's www.religiousmovements.org
www.religiousmovements.org
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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 08:43:16 (EDT)
From: Jethro
Email: None
To: The Minister
Subject: Re: For Moral Interference@Gods Side
Message:
Jon Cainer is a very popular astrologer here in the UK. Now that his 'followers' will know who and what Jon follows I am sure that they will check out Maharaji and Knowledge.

I think Jon backed out of ELK because Maharaji was angry at the amount of attention Jon was getting instead of M.
Do you remember the massive picture of Maharaji that was on the side of the Palace of Peace in the early 70s? Well at that time many of the neighbours complained about the picture, and when M was told he just laughed and said 'I don't care how I get into people's heads, but I will do so'.
(Glen Whittiker's satsang at the Palace of Peace, circa 1974-5)

Fortunately, these days, people can make informed decisions by getting the whole picture.
You see you are a 'Minister', just like Jagdeo is/was of Maharaji. Jagdeo's case WILL come out in the open one way or another and I have no doubt there will sadly be other cases.
Revisionism isn't so easy these days.

People like you are guilty by ommission and your cozy nest of lies will burst open soon enough.

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 06:38:19 (EDT)
From: The Apostate
Email: None
To: The Minister
Subject: Ministry of Silence?
Message:
Mr Cainer is a public figure who spouts bullshit in two public arenas, the Daily Mail and the Enjoyinglife website. This too is a public forum where the public are also allowed to join in, and offer personal opinions on public matters, including the public pronoucements of JC and his Guru.. Referring to a public person by name and making criticisms of the content or contradictons of his written words is certainly not unethical, nor can it be construed as a personal attack. (Under a different name you have made plenty of personal attacks on forum contributors - so just quit the hypocrisy, eh?)

Unless you have a factual error to correct, your little burst of vitriol serves only to highlight the emptiness of your criticism.

As to a 'mundane and uninteresting view of the past...' You had better stay tuned, Father, 'cause it is all happening right now - at this precious moment in time etc, and it's gonna be very blissful. Ever heard of the saying 'birds coming home to roost..?'

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 10:36:11 (EDT)
From: The Minister
Email: You only miss your waters when there gone
To: The Aprostate
Subject: Re: Ministry of Silence?
Message:
Mr Cainer is a professional Astrologer and syndicated journalist. He in fact had nothing to do with the Holocaust, the Rawanda Genocide or the recent Turkish earthqauke .In your present enlightened state you may wish to attribute some blame for these and future disasters on he or any number of other people who might share similar interests to him.Don't you realise your line of reasoning here is totally absurd and bereft of any substance or merit?
There are very good anti psychoticdrugs now available on the market these days. If these thoughts keep bothering you ,please , see your doctor before its to late.
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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 11:12:06 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: The Minister
Subject: A professional astrologer? What's that?
Message:
Is a 'professional astrologer' something akin to a fully-credentialled fraud? Or a journeyman joker? Really, sir, I have to ask you, what in the world is 'professional' about what Cainer does? I remember him sitting around his extremely modest North Hollywood flat, playing around with a few charts (he still owes my ex-girl-friend, Deborah, one by the way). When did that silly, antiquarian hobby become 'profesional'? Or do you simply mean 'when he started making a living off it'?
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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 12:14:19 (EDT)
From: Nemisis
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A professional astrologer? What's that?
Message:
What's the difference between a dead snake in the middle of the road and a dead lawyer?? Skid marks in front of the Snake!!!
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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 16:36:10 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: brauns@dircon.co.uk
To: All
Subject: For Mad Jon: Your writings are safe
Message:
Jon,

I notice that, as you promised, your contributions to Enjoyinglife have been removed from the site. I have kept copies in case you or someone else wants them. I have to say that removing them is a really bizarre action, and I wonder at your feelings and thoughts at this time.

The site now resembles Maharaji's world. Those of us who remember that you were one of the founders, know, but a casual browser would not know. Those of us who remember Maharaji claiming to be God and demanding unconditional and total devotion know, but a casual enquirer would not know.

Jon, there are some wonderful things in this life, but I don't believe Maharaji is one of them.

John.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 14:05:37 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: A contest, Roger?
Message:
Any chance you'd be interested in running a bad premie poetry contest? I mean, take a look. There's a lot of talent out there. Here's a candidate for sure.:

Rohn Bayes
San Antonio, Tx, USA

Autumn full moon

on this aspiring day of easy accommodation
while birds settle on the green and fertile limbs
as moons rise on sun sets and hills rise on moors
I make plans to tarry and forthwith to go

it's questing for the prize, sweet
that brings low the bough
it's love for the living, joy
that makes us complete

my end has my footsteps
whether over field or stream
into hedgebrook or valley
even the broad sea

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 07:40:39 (EDT)
From: People's Poet
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: A contest, Roger?
Message:
Hey Guys,

Don't be too hard on old Rohn Bayes. It's not bad for a first draft, written while pissed (drunk) on the back of a fag (cigarette) packet on the way home from the pub.
He just needs to do a bit of work on it while he's sober.

Thingy the Poet

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 16:01:23 (EDT)
From: Walt Whitman
Email: None
To: People's Poet
Subject: Not bad, really
Message:
my end has my footsteps
whether over field or stream
into hedgebrook or valley
even the broad sea

I think this last stanza is actually pretty good, if I'm to be fair about it. A lot better than the marshmellow fluff his master is swirling.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 12:17:41 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Walt Whitman
Subject: Oh, come now, Walt
Message:
Walt,

You've been dead too long. The fact is, this last stanza is as much a stuffed wastebasket of cliches as the rest. Here, let's look:

my end has my footsteps

What the fuck is that? What does it say? What does it evoke beside the notion that premies are pre-occupied with death because that's part of the programming and 'footsteps' is one of those words they like to squeeze in here and there. You know, like 'I walk in the footsteps of my cult leader'. Maybe premies can't forget that christian story we glommed on to inthe seventies where the guy traces back on his walk on the beach with Jesus and notices that when things got toughest there were only one set of prints. He wonders why Jesus 'forsooked' him only to get a letter back from the Office of Jesus Christ advising him that Jesus was, in fact, carrying him then. Yeah, 'footsteps', can't have a romantic moment without footsteps.

whether over field or stream
into hedgebrook or valley
even the broad sea

Well 'Field and Stream' is a hunting magazine. Tell me some other way this phrase got into our poet's head. Sounds pretty funny to me. And 'hedgebrook'? HEDGEBROOK? Please!! But then we have the requisite 'valley'. You need those valleys, don't you, if you 're trying to create some imaginary mystical wonderland a la Kabir, etc. Gotta have some valleys. And, I guess, to be fair, valleys AND hedgebrooks really do create something beautiful. (By the way, my curiosity got the best of me and I actually looked 'hedgebrook' up. Oxford, at least in its 'concise' format, has never heard of it. Whatever? Okay, whatever.)

But then we get the capper: 'even the broad sea'. Now 'broad sea' itself isn't so bad. Just another worn out cliche but not uncommon for this level of verse. Grade school kids shouldn't be discouraged if they warm up at this level. But tell me, Walt, how in the world this guy's 'end' can 'have his footsteps .... over the broad sea'? Besides being opaque nonsense, its awkward. It doesn't sound good, it's a bizarre use of the verb 'to have' and it makes no sense. It is really no better than random sputter, is it? Or am I missing something?

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 03:11:40 (EDT)
From: Walt
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Give it some slack, Jim
Message:
Jeez, I didn't say the guy was the next Robert Frost, did I? I just don't think his poetry is as laughable as you make it. I also don't think poetry should be deconstructed as if you're dissecting a frog. If you get it, you get it. Like a song, if it hits it's mark, it works. But I'll attempt to explain why the poem worked for me.

my end has my footsteps

This is a proud claim on life. At the end of his journey the author is claiming full responsibility for his life. It's HIS footsteps that have lead up to his end, nobody else's. He's proud of this.

whether over field or stream
into hedgebrook or valley

Nothing impressive. But it leads into this...

even the broad sea

Footsteps on the sea? It does present an impressive visual treat. And what is good poetry if not good imagery?

What were you missing? Nothing really. You're tastes just might be too sophisticated for this kind of childish simplicity. Really, the guy's in a cult. What can you expect? Emerson? It's still not bad.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 14:30:34 (EDT)
From: Roger Crass Drek
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: One problem with that
Message:
Well, uh, er...

That request might be asking a little bit too much out of old Rog. I'm a simple man, an uneducated and a crass man.

Mine eyes does glaze over
Mine head does ache
When asked to bend over
To read what they spake

my end has my footsteps

Yeah, and his end will have my bootsteps

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 04:06:30 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Sunday Express - Not This Week
Message:
Just to let you know that I can find nothing in today's Sunday Express about M, Jagdeo, DLM or EV.

Maybe next week.

John.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 06:14:24 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: anthginn@yahoo.com
To: JHB
Subject: Doncha love the Internet?
Message:
Hi John,

Don't panic. It's not a ruse by the Express marketing department to get us to switch from the Observer.

Okay, so we're down 85p each on the day, but this is only the lull before the storm.

They've held the story back because they've not been able to contact the relevant police officer yet.

I'm assured that they intend to run the story, and to quote an unnamed insider at the Express, 'It will make Maharaji squirm'.

Don't you just love the Internet? Five minutes after posting the 'Elan Vital has nothing to do with DLM' lawyers letter bit, there was a letter asking for a standing order to be changed from DLM to Elan Vital, then, 10 minutes later, from California, we'd got legal documents showing the official name change.

Yahoo. All power to your keyboards comrades.

I think I'll sing a bit of a Phil Ochs song,

'What's that I hear now, ringing in my ears?
I've heard that sound before.
What's that I hear now ringing in my ears?
I hear it more and more.
It's the sound of 'Freedom' calling, calling up to the sky.
It's the sound of the old ways a falling.
You can hear it if you try.
You can hear it if you try.'

Anth on the Last Day of his Holidays.

(Hi Heather. Hope I'm not causing you any sleepless nights. There's nothing personal in this, except with Mahatma Ji- who sexually abused at least one child in my care (yes, I'm afraid more turds may be rising to the surface of the pool).

Anyway, I hope we can all separate our public duties from our personal relationships. Give me a call if you want a chat.

Anth the Probably Won't Be Touched with a Barge Pole.

John, it appears this post has picked up a hitchhiker.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 09:14:00 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: Doncha love the Internet?
Message:
Dear Anth,
Bravo man! It is good to see this taken off this page and into the 'real' world!
Love,
Robyn the to timid to fight but glad others are suceeding :)
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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 22:23:24 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: All
Subject: JHB: LOTU Tip
Message:
short, very long brown hair, white peasant blouse, silly grin, blissed out. Blink and you'll miss me.

Lalita saw old friends too. It brought back lots of memories, good and bad.

I miss my long hair. I had to cut it when I finished law school. I am only 5'1', and it made me look too young for court. Cut it off to make people take me more seriously. It worked but I still miss that long hair.

Happy watching!

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 12:38:51 (EDT)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Just saw you, Marianne
Message:
Marianne,
I just saw you! (I think)
Does the guy next to you wave? Is your hair pulled off of your face?
VP
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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 17:53:22 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Re: Just saw you, Marianne
Message:
Yes siree, VP. You caught the ring!

Marianne

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 09:17:14 (EDT)
From: Robyn
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: JHB: LOTU Tip
Message:
Dear Marianne,
Well now I want to see LOTU again! :) Maybe when I am visiting you, eh?
Love ya,
Robyn
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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 07:18:18 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Get a wig Marianne (nt)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 04:41:57 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: JHB: LOTU Tip
Message:
Thanks Marianne - I'll definitely look out for you!

All the best,

John.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 20:00:24 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: All
Subject: David Lane's Changes
Message:
There used to be a page on ex-premie.org which described an experiment in initiation which, in our terms, showed the 'grace' to flow from whomever was given the task, not from certain beings who were duly annointed by a 'master'. The experimenter was David Lane.

Lane's work had a strong impact on me when I first got involved. I had left Miragey (in disgust) many years before, but reading of Lane's experiment brought some closure to the experience.

Lane has modified his tune lately. Anon, who posts occasionally, originally posted some of Lane's commentary and I am reprinting, more or less, the same stuff that Anon had posted. Lane goes a little too far for me, but I am inclined to go in the same direction.

This is from his main page:
'It has become exceedingly obvious to me that I can no longer 'deconstruct' religions and cults the same way. This is not to suggest that I have let go of my critical mind (that is part and pacel of my package) but only that after time it is important to 'reconstruct' a more positive and powerful story. In other words, the real scum bag guru is not somewhere 'outside' but can on closer inspection be a feature of our own makeup. Hang out with roses and you begin to smell like flowers, as the cliche goes. The same holds true with trash.

What this means for me personally is what Nietzsche may term the 'artist's life'--a way to paint new portraits based upon the totality of one's life experiences. I have looked in the mirror and found that there needs to be a major transformation of how to live this life. There are endless guru wars, endless cult controversies, endless bad stories about spiritual teachers gone south, and in the infinity of this rubbish, there comes a moment when one must either choose nihilism or choose art. It is time to choose Art, a time to choose Dance, a time to choose Invention.

This does not mean that the old articles on the Neural Surfer will disappear (they too, I would imagine, have their place), but that my focus will be on UpLIFTING the narratives centering my life. One can only talk about plagiarism, deceit, and corruption for so long. I am thoroughly exhausted.

I am also at the stage where I realize that the way we think is often governed by what Blackmore and Dennett and Dawkins have called 'memes'--replicating units of ideas. Even if memetic theory is sophomoric or incomplete, its metaphoric power is illuminating. I am tired of the deconstructing meme. I am tired of the cynical meme. I am tired.'

His website is at:
http://www.mtsac.edu/~dlane/index.html

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 06:39:41 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: David Lane's Changes
Message:
Hi Run',

I was put onto David Lane's site by an ex-member of another cult who read my journey here, and with whom I occasionaly correspond.

His perspective, in the above piece rings loud and true to me, and sort of re-inforces my belief that there is some sort of natural growth and development happens in the human mind, as well as in the body.

I also feel getting out of Maharji's little world was a 'natural' event in the same kind of way, maybe something of a 'grow grow grow' as well as a 'drip drip drip'.

Anth (Still Marchin')

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 05:49:53 (EDT)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: David Lane's Changes
Message:
There used to be a page on ex-premie.org which described an experiment in initiation which, in our terms, showed the 'grace' to flow from whomever was given the task, not from certain beings who were duly annointed by a'master'. The experimenter was David Lane.
Lane's work had a strong impact on me when I first got involved...Lane's experiment brought some closure to the experience.

Hi Run,
I think the article you may be refering to was entitled 'THE KIRPAL STATISTIC: Using Inner Visions to Your Social Advantage.' wherein David Lane described his experiments at a catholic school at which he 'revealed knowledge' to his class and noted the results.

I too found this article made me question my perception of 'grace' in the context of my experiences with Maharaji.

Since Lane's article was so eloquent and thought provoking to me personally, I included a part of it in my 'Journey'. It is still there to read (if you can't find it on Lane's site.)

Regarding meditation, I still find it pretty natural to slip into the feeling, although my attitude to it's practise has changed. I empathise with Lane when he says that he is wearying after 'talking about plagiarism, deceit, and corruption for so long'. I think it is important that one confronts these facts (and maybe does one's best to warn others) but, in the long term, is able to exorsize anger, regret, bitterness etc. and move positively forward in life, taking what good one has learned and leaving the bad.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 22:06:29 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: David Lane's Changes
Message:
I've read things seen Lane's site, and I don't think his efforts are entirely misdirected. There are certainly a lot of 'scumbag gurus' out there, and half-baked prophets, too. But you always have to watch out not to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think that is what Lane means by his statement.

One thing pops up in my mind (yes, 'mind', I don't think it's all that bad to think, you know) - Maharaji said it again and again: 'The experience of Knowledge is not something I give you out of my pocket - it's your own effort in satsang, service and meditation'. I mean it's so obvious - no meditation, no experience. When I meditate, I concentrate on the techniques, not on Maharaji. But I also remember him saying, 'If Maharaji were so precious to you, then his Knowledge would be precious to you.' So, obviously he is trying to get people to practice, to have an experience. I don't think that he is out to get people's blind worship or anything like that. I've never felt compelled to do anything I didn't want to do, at least.

It's so simple, really. You can be skeptical of everything, but one thing is difficult to be skeptical about - and that is your own existence. For me, Knowledge is a way (or the way) to actually appreciate and deeply feel what it is to exist, to be alive.

So what is it that makes a difference between a living person and a dead body, a corpse, anyway?

Scientists just give a description of the presence or absence of vital signs. Somehow, I'd like to know a bit more than that, be more familiar with it. It's the very life that I am living, after all. Actually, it's silly to be expecting some scientist to give me some goofy theory about it when I am the one who lives it every moment.

It is highly individual, and it's not an object, nor a thing. It's perception. Consciousness being conscious of itself. Can't put a measuring rod on experience, you know. I know it for a fact that it's not something that I imagine, or conjure up by myself. That much I do know. It's something the value of which everyone should understand by themselves, for themselves, as much they want to, or as much they are interested in it.

- Mili

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 16:21:39 (EDT)
From: Dr Wormfood
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Your answer, Mili...
Message:
So what is it that makes a difference between a living person and a dead body, a corpse,
anyway?

Brain death.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 07:02:38 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: What baby?
Message:
Hi Mili,

You said we should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

As I'm feeling tuneful today, I'll sing another little song,
I hope you can manage my cockney accent,

'Moy Baybee 'as gorn down the plag'ole,
moy baybee 'as gorn down the plag.
Poor little fing, was so skinny and fin,
it should 'av bin worshed in a jag
(in a jag)'

There's another verse I can't remember, which ends with the baby in heaven.

Anyway Mili, I know this isn't true for lots of ex-premies, and maybe it's because I was so far 'in' I'm going into orbit an equal distance 'out', but 'knowledge of God' in my humble opinion, is not knowledge of God at all. In fact, for people who believe in God (which I still do) it's a bit insulting to pretend he tastes like snot.

When the walls came tumbling down, it was easy for me to accept that Maharaji wasn't the Avatar of the Age, 'Perfect Master' whatever, it explained all sorts of niggling little contradictions I'd been avoiding for years.

It wasn't until a bit later on, when I was honest with myself about 'knowledge' that I began to see it for what it was. Not an experience of inner god, Divine Light, Nectar, the Holy Name, or whatever they call it nowadays. This was all part of the belief system.

If you stop believing what you are seeing is 'divine light', what the hell are you looking at?

Do you think if premies really tasted God when they stuck their tonges back, that they'd ever open their mouths and speak again? Why would they drink tea and coffee?

I won't labour the point Mili, but I hope you get my drift. You attribute lots of wierd stuff to 'the experience of knowledge' which you believe 'was given to you'.

If 'knowledge' is your life force, and it was given to you by Maharaji, is my life force also 'knowledge' and given to me by him. To me that now almost qualifies as a real joke. It's genuinely funny. I can't beleive I believed it all once.

There are some concepts premies just don't want to let go off.

Anth the tuneful.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 23:18:45 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Re: David Lane's Changes
Message:
Honest to God Mili, it would be so much easier to respond respectfully if you didn't have to throw in the obligatory satsang puke into it.

I understand the principle you describe and I used to believe it myself, but people who are abusive shouldn't have their behavior excused because they do something right. A wife beater who pays the bills is still a wife beater.

It takes a lot of concentration to meditate, but it takes a comparable amount of time to divest oneself of the baggage that Rawatt inserts into us through his unique brand of vampiresque psychic surgery.

Importantly, I think Lane is easier on his ex-gurus than we should be to ours, because his ex-gurus are not as indulgent, greedy and despicably unconcerned with as large a group of devotees.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 03:37:24 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: David Lane's Changes
Message:
Gosh Run, it's so easy to meditate. It's like it's the most natural thing there is. I really don't understand why some of you guys are having such a problem with it.

- Mili

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 12:13:23 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Re: David Lane's Changes
Message:
Yeah Mili, it is easy to meditate and have a little bit of a peaceful feeling but to meditate to the extent that the experience is comparable to 'God' isn't so easy. Then, if you ever get there, and I count myself as one who did, you're stuck with the baggage. I could describe it as 200 pounds of weight for each person to carry AT ALL TIMES, but I don't think that captures the damage that Rawatt has in store for each person he sucks life from.

I posted this for exes. There are issues I could discuss with you about it, but for the moment I don't much care to. You're a distaraction for now.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 09:28:30 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Struggling with Knowledge
Message:
Mili,

Maharaji's explanation for why people struggle with Knowledge is because people can't accept it. He maintains that when people practice they feel all that beauty that Knowledge is, but some of us just won't let it in. I believed him when he said this and it really fucked up my head as a result, thinking that I'm experienceing something beautiful but I'm just too stupid to realize it.

I've since learned a few things about meditation (which the mastuh never has, apparently). Meditation, for those responsive to it, does give peace because of the increase in alpha and theta brainwaves. But for those who aren't responsive to meditation (through no fault of their own, I might add. Some people's brains just aren't built to be responsive), an increase in these waves doesn't occur.

So, your master is wrong. People who are struggling with Knowledge are NOT experiencing the beauty of it. They can't be because the brainwaves that induce it are not present.

Somebody really ought to tell Maharaji this so he can 'clarify' what's going on for people struggling with Knowledge. As of now, he has no idea what he's talking about.

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 23:47:39 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Disqualifying Knowledge
Message:
I've been thinking about this and I think that, for me at least, Knowledge is disqualified as a form of meditation. I was led to have the most unrealistic expectations of Knowledge. I was taught from the start that it was a direct channel to God that was openned by Maharaji's grace. We're talking more than meditation here. We're talking hocus pocus. Magic. Yes, I believed that Knowledge had some powerful mojo that other forms of meditation didn't. That's why I chose it over others.

To practice Knowledge in a realistic vein, I think, has become impossible. Whenever I sat down to meditate it was 'God or bust'. I would settle for nothing less. To be honest, if Maharaji didn't lead me to believe that he was God's holy messenger, I wouldn't have any interest in meditation at all.

But my main point is that expectations of what Knowledge can do, and what makes it work, are too unrealistic for it to be regarded as merely a form of meditation. There's a belief element involved that the giver of this 'gift', Maharaji, has some special powers that enables the desired 'experience'. Most, if not all, premies are certain that if they had not 'officially' received Knowledge, then the experience of it would not be available.

So, Knowlege is not a form of meditation. Not in a true sense. It never will be as long as Maharaji can help it. It will always be something else, something that requires a belief in magic, and that Maharaji is the magician that makes the magic happen. That's not meditation. True meditation does not require magicians and a belief in their magic. Just calm focus is required, nothing more.

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Date: Wed, Sep 01, 1999 at 20:41:32 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jerry
Subject: Roger, here's a keeper (IMHO)
Message:
Yeah, exactly. Thanks Jer.
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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 04:39:45 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: Mili
Subject: Your lack of understanding
Message:
Gosh Run, it's so easy to meditate. It's like it's the most natural thing there is. I really don't understand why some of you guys are having such a problem with it.

Mili,

Possible explanations:-

1. It doesn't work for everyone.
2. Bad students.
3. Bad teacher.

Which explanation do you subscribe to? Or can you think of another one that I've missed? For me, sometimes meditation is easy, other times impossible, but I understand that people aren't the same. In teaching any subject, students require some individual tuition. Maharaji's one size fits all method of teaching is bound to be hit and miss.

John.

John.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 20:29:12 (EDT)
From: Willow
Email: None
To: Runamok
Subject: Re: David Lane's Changes
Message:
Run,

Thanks for the reference.

I think I shall go dancing!

Willow

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 12:44:26 (EDT)
From: Cedar Bud
Email: None
To: Willow
Subject: Re: David Lane's Changes
Message:
Great idea Willow!

And while we're all dancing, perhaps we should also apologize to ' Mr. and Mrs. Rawatt? '

Hm?

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 14:59:33 (EDT)
From: Hemlock
Email: None
To: Cedar Bud
Subject: Synchronicity
Message:
I had the exact same thought about that.

With all apologies to the Rawatt family past or present.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 16:41:00 (EDT)
From: Arsenic
Email: None
To: Hemlock
Subject: Re: Synchronicity
Message:
My Beloved Hemlock,

Knowing Cedar Bud as well as I do, I believe I can safely say that when he was making his reference to apologizing to 'Mr. and Mrs. Rawatt'....he was being purely sarcastic.

It is clear however, that to both you and Willow,those who have maligned MJ and his family, genuinely owe them apologies.

I'll tell you what...when they can apologize to me...then I'll begin to think about apologizing to them.

To put it in Miloochie's terminology...if this was like a car accident, them MJ is at fault.
His driving sucks and he should be taken off the road.

All the best to you Hemlock!

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 21:16:39 (EDT)
From: Arsenic
Email: None
To: Willow, Hemlock
Subject: What I do apologize for...
Message:
....is submitting my 'synchronicity' post in duplicate:)
Sheesh!
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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 21:39:04 (EDT)
From: Hemlock
Email: None
To: Arsenic
Subject: Re: What I do apologize for...
Message:
We both know what the potion is to cure that ill!
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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 16:30:01 (EDT)
From: Runamok
Email: None
To: Hemlock
Subject: Re: Synchronicity
Message:
Don't worry, the Rawatt's don't pay much attention to anyone, whether or not in a moment of weakness.
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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 05:40:01 (EDT)
From: Firefly
Email: None
To: Willow
Subject: Ditto (NT)
Message:
ff
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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 14:47:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: All
Subject: Why do you have to do this?
Message:
Ever notice how there's no link feature when you're starting a thread?
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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 16:18:28 (EDT)
From: barney
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: No link feature and short subject
Message:
Yup, Paradise is really hell.

No link feature when starting a thread.
Castrated Subject field when starting a thread.
Replies are posted in the wrong order.

Paradise is definitely a candidate for acquisition by Microsoft.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 14:55:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Re: Why do you have to do this?
Message:
Here's a link to an essay by Paul Kurtz from the current issue of the Skeptical Inquirer, especially dedicated this quarter to 'God and Religion'.

And here's an excerpt:

Can There Be a Science of Religion?

Some have argued that religious phenomena-matters of faith-are entirely beyond the ken of science; but this surely is false because the scientific investigation of religion has already made great strides and there is a vast literature now available. We may talk about religion in at least two senses: First, religion refers to a form of human behavior that can be investigated. Second, it is used to refer to the transcendental, i.e., to that which transcends human experience or reason.
Let us turn to the first area. Religious behavior has been investigated by a wide range of disciplines: Anthropologists deal with the comparative study of primitive religions, examining prayer, ritual, the rites of passage, etc. Sociologists have investigated the institutional aspects of religious behavior, such as the role of the priestly class in society. Ever since William James, psychologists of religion have studied the varieties of religious experience, such as mysticism, ecstasy, talking in tongues, exorcism, etc. Similarly, biologists have postulated a role for religious beliefs and practices in the evolutionary process and their possible adaptive/survival value. They have asked, Does religiosity have a genetic or environmental basis? Others have focused on the neurological correlates of religious piety, and still others have attempted to test the efficacy of prayer.

One can deal with religion in contemporary or historical contexts. A great deal of attention has been devoted to the historical analysis of religious claims, especially since the great classical religions are based on ancient documents (the Old and New Testaments and the Koran), as are some of the newer religions (such as the nineteenth-century Book of Mormon). These texts allege that certain miraculous and revelatory events have occurred in the past and these warrant religious belief today; and it is often claimed that belief in them is based upon faith.

I would respond that scientific methodology has been used in historical investigations to examine these alleged events. Archaeologists seek independent corroborating evidence; they examine written or oral accounts that were contemporaneous with the events (for example, by comparing the Dead Sea Scrolls with the New Testament). The fields of 'biblical criticism' or 'koranic criticism' have attempted to use the best scholarly techniques, historical evidence, and textual and linguistic analysis to ascertain the historical accuracy of these claims.
Should Skeptical Inquiry Be Applied to Religion?

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 15:00:03 (EDT)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And here's a bit of a joke
Message:
--
Late in the millennium, astrophysicists perfected the Grand Unified Field Theory, found the last scraps of 'missing matter' in the universe, and proved, quite by accident, that God does not exist. Or, at best, God was not a very awesome particle, one billion-billion-billionth the size of a pea, with the static electricity charge of an infinitely small sock stuck to a tiny sweater. The media reported this story with the same breathless style they used in 'Salt is a Killer' in 1991 and 'Salt is a Miracle Cure' in 1998. And the public reacted to reports of God's non-existence as it had to such shocking stories as Darwin's theory of evolution or Michael Jackson's pederasty:
Day 1: That can't possibly be true.

Day 2: I kind of knew it all along.

The jig was up for religious leaders all over the world, and many decided to come clean. From Britain, the long-suppressed introduction to the King James Bible was released: 'This is a booke of instructional tayles for children and the weak of minde, and not to be taken too seriously.' Israeli archaeologists confessed that the Dead Sea Scrolls were a rather crude forgery which contained such glaring anachronisms as 'toothpaste,' 'steam engine,' and 'Phil Silvers.' And Chinese scholars admitted that the chubby smiling Buddha began life as a corporate logo for pickled eel in the third century; he was, in effect, the Bob's Big Boy of his time.

And so the world began to accept life without God. Christians who had been searching for an excuse to skip church now had a humdinger. Jews could finally eat pork without guilt, and found it didn't taste nearly as good that way. Contrarily, millions of starving Hindus were quite happy to eat the sacred cows which had sauntered through their streets for centuries. By year's end, India's leading killer had gone from hunger to hypertension, and the cliché of the portly, red-faced Hindu was born.

All but the most fun religious holidays soon passed into obscurity. Easter: in. Lent: out. Hanukkah stayed, while Yom Kippur was replaced with Hanukkah II. Ramadan, the Moslem period of fasting, sobriety, and sexual abstinence, was shortened from twenty-eight days to twenty-eight seconds. Christmas, which had long ago been stripped of any religious meaning, was virtually unchanged.

All over the world, houses of worship lost their tax-exempt status and were forced to shut down. Mosques became banks, cathedrals were converted into multiplexes. Dozens of small churches were turned into a chain of coffee shops called 'St. Arbucks.' They were wildly successful in 2003, and bankrupt a year later.

In 2008, the Catholic Church had a massive going out of business sale, auctioning off all its religious art. The Last Supper now graces the lobby of Mitsubishi International in Osaka. The Sistine Chapel ceiling was moved intact to Trump's Vaticasino in Atlantic City; cigarette smoke has undone all the restoration work and it now looks worse than ever. Larry Flynt bought the Pieta, and what he's done with it is too gruesome to speculate on.

The Vatican, now stripped of its treasures, installed a water slide to attract tourists. It didn't work. As for the Pope, he became just another celebrity, famous for being famous. He had a talk show on the USA Network, he did a brandy ad, he cut a country and western album. His infomercial for a vibrating massage chair can be seen on many cable channels at three a.m. He married Linda Evans.

One thing did not happen in the post-God world: there was not a total moral collapse. People who didn't have sex because they were too religious now didn't have sex because they were too ugly. A Dallas man who didn't kill his hated wife out of fear of God, now didn't kill her out of fear of the Texas Department of Corrections. In fact, he never killed her-they remained married for fifty-eight years. In the last six years of his life, the man grew demented and began to think his wife was his mother; he died more in love with her than he could possibly imagine.

And so the Godless world plugged along-people were lustier, greedier, prouder, angrier, more envious, gluttonous, and slothful-but not so much you'd notice. They were also a little happier, until July 18, 2036, when geologists taking deep core samples discovered there really was a Hell and we were all going there.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 08:56:50 (EDT)
From: Seymour
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Life's a joke
Message:
Hello Jim,
I enoyed the article on applying skeptical inquiry to religion and think it is a shame that CSICOP decline from doing this. I can understand the reasons and myself could not be bothered wasting time on arguing against the many mystical, 'beyond reason', faith based nonsensical propositions that all religions contain.
However, there is always a discussion going on somewhere about the nature of truth and scientific investigation has not yet come up with all the answers. It is important to question everything - when I spent some time studying psycology there was something called 'authentication' which I have always tried to practice when dealing with new ideas. I think it just means 'always have doubts until there is proof'. However, and it is slighty digressing, although we are making progress in leaps and bounds about the nature of the physical universe and how we came to exist within it, the progress towards being able to enjoy life without suffering seems slow. We know how to build healthy bodies, improve our minds, acquire wealth, understand DNA, etc. but have a lot to learn about being able to cope with relationships, illness, lack of purpose, lack of inspiration, and the countless other things that all too often make life a drudge.
There has been much research in clinical psychology relating to the chemicals that flow through out bodies (serotonin etc.) and how an imbalance can cause depression, anxiety, mystic visions etc. Maybe our whole perspective on life and hence out ability to enjoy it, depends entirely on drugs. What is the correct way to view life? is it just after you have been out jogging and the endorphins have kicked in, or when you have had a nice glass of wine, or after you have had the shock of losing someone close to you, or when you first get up in the morning, or when you are in love....or what? If there is no absolute 'correct' way of reacting to your environmental stimuli then the psycho-pharmocologists should be working on a set of drugs that you can take to adjust the body's balance according to the situation you are in.
I mean look at what that big pile of coke did for Robert de Niro at the end of Scarface. If he'd been a clean living sort of guy he would have been killed by the first bullet rather than carrying on fighting back whilst being shot by scores of machine guns. I know there are a few drawbacks with these synthetic drugs but we probably have much more powerful stuff already within us - just needing the right catalyst.
Alhough knowledge did not turn out to be the 'permanent acid experience' that was promised I still wonder if there is something out there that could brighten up life - much as I enjoy reading Dawkins and learning about evolution it doesn't exactly lift the spirits or inspire you to plug in the guitar and write something like 'Purple Haze' or the Seargent Pepper albumn. Whereas before we had religion or drugs now we've got molecular biology.
Cheers
Seymour.
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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 11:33:37 (EDT)
From: Mili
Email: mili@cheerful.com
To: Seymour
Subject: Here's another joke
Message:
'God is dead.' -- Nietzche

'Nietzche is dead.' -- God

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 08:33:19 (EDT)
From: The Spin Doctor
Email: None
To: All
Subject: The Unknowing
Message:
I would tell my employer about my devotion to Maharaji and His Knowledge but he just wouldn't understand. I mean should I have put on my resume under special skills that I have the Knowledge of all Knowledges. He'd think I was a bongo or something.

These latest developments in the UK are just another test. As we all know, there is no such thing as coincidence. I must go deeper and trust.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 15:14:28 (EDT)
From: Pauline Premie
Email: None
To: The Spin Doctor
Subject: Re: The Unknowing
Message:
Oh, yes SD, your employer does not have that understanding of that love, that truth, that peace, that joy and that experience, which is that gift for which we are gifted by that love which is that grace of Maharaji and that gift, which we can only comprehend, fathom and know if we have that understanding. There is no such thing as coincidence or accident. As Maharaji said, not even a leaf falls without his grace. What is happening in the UK is just lila, a test, a side-play for Maharaji. We can laugh at it because he is in comlete control. After all, without Maharaji, we are nothing more than the parasites that feed on coagulated vomit.
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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 17:01:23 (EDT)
From: Roger E. Drek
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Silly premies worshipping the absurd
Message:
You silly rabbit. Knowledge is for kids! You are correct that only YOU are hip to the secret of all life. So fortunate you are. Many are called...

This is a good opportunity to point you to Worshipping the Absurd research paper by Foss and Larkin on Jean-Michel's website The Elan Vital - Divine Light Mission Papers.

However, I warn you that there is information there that will rock your dreamworld.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 21:45:06 (EDT)
From: A shaken Mel
Email: None
To: Roger E. Drek
Subject: My premie dreamworld in tatters...
Message:
Hi Roger

I just read 'Worshipping the Absurd', and I must say I found it a fascinating view of the DLM world of the 70's, ie some 25 odd years ago, but really expresses nothing new, certainly not enough to shake my 'dreamworld'......

Thank God that the experience of Knowledge is not based on any of this nonsense! I guess you'll have to try harder to convince me I'm deluded.

Mel

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Date: Tues, Aug 31, 1999 at 08:22:33 (EDT)
From: Jerry
Email: None
To: A shaken Mel
Subject: This nonsense
Message:
Thank God that the experience of Knowledge is not based on any of this nonsense! I guess
you'll have to try harder to convince me I'm deluded.

Mel, how can you say that your 'experience' of Knowledge is free from the fanfare of the 70s? The idea that Maharaji was the Lord Of The Universe who, by his grace, was offering the experience of God to those who asked for it? How can you say that your 'experience' is not based on any of 'this nonsense'? It wasn't so much nonsense to you back then, was it? Your whole experience is rooted in this nonsense, Mel.

IT'S WHERE YOU CAME FROM.

Now, you want to say that it was all nonsense, like it never had anything to do with you. I wouldn't be surprised if you were one of the main trumpeters blasting out 'this nonsense'.

Tell me you never believed in the 'grace' of Guru Maharaji and that his lifestyle and actions were just his lila designed to keep us focused on the prize within. Go on, Mel. Tell me you never believed it, and never told others that this was so.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 22:04:09 (EDT)
From: Sir Dave
Email: None
To: A shaken Mel
Subject: Re: My premie dreamworld in tatters...
Message:
And there's no article about Maharaji in today's 'Sunday Express' either. But put your statement the other way round: "Is Maharaji based upon an experience of knowledge?"

My answer to that is 'Definitely not!' and if you can digest that point then you'll understand why so many of us became ex-premies.

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 03:29:39 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Sir Dave
Subject: Flavors of reality
Message:
>My answer to that is 'Definitely not!' and if you can digest that point then you'll understand why so many of us became ex-premies.

Some people just don't find your point to be tasty.

'Definitely not' according to your palate.
I didn't experience the same flavor.
My drink was refreshing.

CD

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 16:55:17 (EDT)
From: A Premie
Email: None
To: Pauline Premie
Subject: Don't flatter me sister
Message:
'we are nothing more than the parasites that feed on coagulated vomit'

Look sister, you are in your mind. Stop flattering me because I am not interested in you. I am detatched and only have eyes and ears for Maharaji. Your words above might flatter some premies but for me anything you say is a mere nothing because only the words of my master mean anything to me.

In fact, I now wear ear plugs all the time so that I cannot hear the inane flattery of women such as yourself who might try to lead me away from total devotion to my Lord. Frankly, you do not exist and neither do I. Only Maharaji exists and we are mere thoughts of his, if we are lucky. If he stopped thinking about us we'd disappear into the nothingness from whence he thought us into being, by his grace.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 07:58:30 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: A Premie
Subject: A vehicle
Message:
Jai Sat Chit Anand Brother,

Bolayshrisatgurudevmaharajkijaiananandakandabalbhagwankijaijagatjnanishrimatakijaisatchetavarkijaibholayshresatgurudevmaharajkijaikijaikiaji.

Salutations at the Lotus Feet of Satgurudev.

Brother. You are obviously a vehicle for heeeeeeeeem.

I feel the grace.

Anth the Surrenderedagainbutdon'tworryitwon'tlastlong.

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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 08:19:07 (EDT)
From: JHB
Email: None
To: AJW
Subject: Re: A vehicle
Message:
Bolayshrisatgurudevmaharajkijaiananandakandabalbhagwankijaijagatjnanishrimatakijaisatchetavarkijaibholayshresatgurudevmaharajkijaikija

So that's how he got blissed out!

John the rude word spotter.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 17:03:35 (EDT)
From: Tulsidas
Email: None
To: A Premie
Subject: Poke out your eyes with a hot poker, my brother (NT)
Message:
nt
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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 03:53:10 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: All
Subject: New documents
Message:
New documents on The Elan Vital - Divine Light Mission Papers:

Some recent Indian Satsang

'When he speaks in West for the aspirants, the premies and the public, Maharaji is very careful with his words, and the available materials (videos and magazines) are heavily edited before being released through Visions - Elan Vital.

For historical and cultural reasons, it seems that he has not been able to change the presentation of his 'knowledge' in India, without risking to loose the vast majority of his audience in his country.

As some of his discourses are available through Indian magazines, we've reproduced some of them here to give an idea of what his teaching really is now, and to show that it hasn't changed since the 70s.'

Grace and Gratitude : Maharaji, Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi - Vaishakhi Celebrations - 13th April, 1992 - (Public Program).

'Really there appears to be a store of unhappiness and sorrow in man. How much unrest and agony he feels in his life!.....Because everywhere there is this darkness -- the deep darkness which overshadows the world created by man for his own self. ...Look, that is why it is called Maya (illusion). This world is called 'Maya'. Why is it called Maya ? Because whatever things are there in this world -- I mean, nothing is real. ...There is so much over abundance of blind men in this world that when anyone goes out to find a guide, he usually comes across a blind man. ...as has been said: 'A devotee does not worry about anything, except the experience of Knowledge.'...'When the perfect Master is there to take care of you, you have nothing to worry about. All the powers of prosperity and success are ready to serve you and you are free from all bondages.'..This is such a world in which there is darkness everywhere. And that darkness devours a man. It runs after man to eat him up. And man loses his wits. He becomes heartless....But if you have trust within you and really the Master is there - the Perfect Master - to take care of you, and if you actually have trust and faith in your heart then there is absolutely nothing to worry about.'

Student, Disciple or Devotee ? Maharaji, Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi - Vaishakhi Celebrations - (Evening Session) 13th April, 1991.

'What has a student to become? A student has to become a receptacle. What has a devotee to become? A devotee also has to become a receptacle. And what has a disciple to become? A disciple too has to become a receptacle. Whatever you name him ....Have you seen worms? Have you seen ants? I can understand what it means to be born as an ant or worm in your next birth. That's why it has been said: 'It is with great good fortune we secure this human body. It is rarely attained even by gods, as scriptures say. It is actually the means to practice Knowledge and the gateway to salvation...'...Now this ego. Though it appears to be of little consequence, but even if a devotee is conscious of the fact -'l know,' it is akin to the devotee's crucifixion. If you are plagued with a little bit of arrogance that 'you know', you are gone. You are finished. You know nothing. Period. Again you have to turn to the Master and pray to him to give you prudence- 'Maharaji, please give me wisdom. I even don't know that as a human being I should not be egoistic. This is the problem. As a human being, I don't know how to conduct myself as a devotee. This too please teach me. Please let me know.'

The Radiance of Knowledge Maharaji, Shri Sant Yogashram, New Delhi - (Shri Hans Jayanti celebrations) - November 9, 1990.

'Politics and its inadequacy:
I find so many people trying to understand the intricacies of politics. But which country has been able to solve its problems through politics? What was done there by whom, and what sort of solution was possible through politics?
You just tell me the name of one country where this politics is working smoothly. There is none. It can't work. It is a sort of an attempt made by some people. And it was a sort of philosophy.
Under the first political system, the World-War first was fought. And then the second World-War came. After all there should be some track record of them. You have to look at the past history to visualize how much struggle and strife there has been in the past. But in spite of all that, people are busy in following politics. Why is it so? Because it does not come from the heart...
... And this has to be borne in mind by everyone of us that if you want to have fulfillment in this life then you should begin with this Knowledge. You should be more particular about attaining the supreme happiness for your ownself and not too much concerned about your family, about the welfare of your family.
………Just see, today this word 'guru' has become a ridiculous term, a sort of a joke and people do not know what is a 'guru'. When I fly a plane in India, I often listen to the radio in the cock-pit. There are talks going on between various pilots in the vicinity. Somebody would address: 'Well guru, how are you?' Because they do not know the true meaning and implications. They don't understand the glory of a guru and Master. Because they have forgotten altogether. They have made such pseudo-guru who have put the whole system to disrepute. For instance, in schools they don't know the correct meaning of a couplet like:
The radiance radiated from my beloved is of such an amazing hue ...
They say, 'Oh yes, because Kabir saw a sort of redness...' But what sort of redness was it? Such so-called gurus have marred the reputation of this institution. It has been ruined. Actually the guru is such a personality about whom it is said:

I bow down to the lotusfeet of my Guru Maharaji who is the ocean of mercy and is actually Hari (God) himself in human form.
And whose words are like sunbeams to disperse the accumulated darkness of gross ignorance.
So Tulsidas says that he bows down to such a Guru Maharaji, the Master, who is really Hari (Supreme Power) in the form of man.
So the main thing to understand here is that he bows down to the feet of that guru whose utterances, whose expressions are able to illuminate. And what is that which is illuminated by his words? It is the heart which is illuminated. His words are able to sever and dispel the spidery web of illusion, infatuation and ignorance. This I have seen myself and realized in my own heart. Yes, in my own heart!'

And don't forget your new forum!

Discuss M's teaching

'Is Maharaji's teaching genuine? Who is the one and only 'Master' or 'Satguru' on the planet today? Does such a person actually exist? Can you really ask such a question, and find an answer?'

And have a nice week-end!

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 23:19:41 (EDT)
From: me
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Re: New documents
Message:
you are living in the past,left missing your life
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Date: Sun, Aug 29, 1999 at 05:03:09 (EDT)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: me
Subject: Re: New documents
Message:
How do you know? did we meet recently?

Did I tell you about the wonderful experiences I've had these days? Meditation has never been as deep since I've left Rawat! No strings attached! can you believe this?

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Date: Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 22:33:37 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: anyone
Subject: Last to know?
Message:
Are Moses and Q the same person? Just noticed they both showed up at the same time and the browser type is the same.
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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 03:07:27 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: Last to know?
Message:
nt
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Date: Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 22:43:30 (EDT)
From: Marianne
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: What do you think?
Message:
Well, I peeked today at the Forum and saw the events in London. What do you think about it, Hi, especially given URL's refusal to respond to your questions?

Marianne

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Date: Fri, Aug 27, 1999 at 22:53:40 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: Marianne
Subject: Re: What do you think?
Message:
Hi Marianne-

Well, if Jagdeo is still alive (and I hope he is) I am thrilled to hear that something may finally be done to bring him to justice. I can't really say if URL's lack of response to me has anything to do with it because I don't know who he really is. I've seen that Jim thinks he is Nil but I don't know who he is either!

I'm watching for URL though-I check thru the entire Forum every day in case he sneaks back in here and doesn't answer me.

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Date: Mon, Aug 30, 1999 at 16:37:39 (EDT)
From: URL
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: What do you think?
Message:
URL's lack of response to you has nothing to do with Jagdeo and everything to do with not having an opinion. I will say that you have all tried and convicted Jagdeo without due process. A basic rule of jurisprudence is that a person is innocent until proven otherwise. Second, just because the allegations are so abhorrent does not justify, in the absence of due process, a rush to judgement or a public lynching. I don't personally know G's mom and therefore cannot blindly stand behind her story like you and others do. Witness credibility is always the question in these cases, and I may be wrong but she is the only one that I know of who has publicly come forward. All I can say is if she's making the kinds of claims that she is, she had better be on the level.
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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 03:11:00 (EDT)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Hihomumio
Subject: Re: What do you think?
Message:
>Well, if Jagdeo is still alive (and I hope he is) I am thrilled to hear that something may finally be done to bring him to justice.

If you have a problem with Jagdeo then take personal responsisiblity and do something.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 08:41:46 (EDT)
From: Hihomumio
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Here's what I think
Message:
Hello CD-

No, I wasn't personally affected by this pervert's behavior, but I definitely have an opinion about it. What was done is a crime that he should be punished for. And I am behind anyone who sees to it that he pays for what he has done.

By the way, why didn't you respond to my post in The List thread? From what I've seen, you are a practicing premie and I did invite any premie to respond. Don't you have an opinion about it?

Nice chatting with you Chris.

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 06:28:01 (EDT)
From: AJW
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Hey CD
Message:
Hi CD,

Several people have taken responsibility and done something. It's just a pity that nobody in Elan Vital took responsibility, long ago, when these matters were first reported. Nobody gave (or as far as I can see gives) a shit about the abused children. They are, however, crapping their pants about how it all reflects on Maharaji.

Mind you, they're dealing with the matter now.

And how are they dealing with it CD. By running around like they've got red hot irons up their arses, firing lawyers letters out.

Shows great responsibility eh?

Anth the Plaintive

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Date: Sat, Aug 28, 1999 at 04:21:05 (EDT)
From: barney the vigilante
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Git a rope!
Message:
CD,

I understand your bitterness at the possibility that Maharaji will end up embarrassed over this episode, but...

For you to suggest that we take personal responsibility is akin to suggesting vigilantism, an eye for an eye kinda thing. But I know that you didn't really mean that.

I believe at this very late date it would be difficult to use the legal channels to prosecute Jagdeo. However that doesn't mean that he should escape punishment. Perhaps public humiliation might send him and others a message that this type of behavior is not acceptable in a civilized world. Maybe you can do this stuff in India where little grease fires kill thousands of new brides when their parents don't come up with the dowry money. Ever see the 1994 movie Bandit Queen set in India? It's based on a true story. The reality is that many Indian men are misogynists and sick.

Ah, I digress. Have you read G's Mom's journey? That's some sick stuff that was allowed to happen under Maharaji's reign of peace. And Jagdeo's position as a Mahatma (aka Priest) facilitated his evil.

I have not read G's Mom's journey in a while, but I've got a mental image of Jagdeo playing his little game and I don't like it one bit. I shudder to think that my little sister who was maybe seventeen at the time was coming around as an aspirant at that time period. Fortunately she bailed out and did not receive Maharaji's precious Knowledge. I'm very protective of my sisters and if something had happened I'm not sure that I could have blown it off as some goddamn Lila.

The reality is that a number of women have been adversely effected by Jagdeo's reign of fetish, perverted terror. And this happened when they were children. Even whacked out criminals in prison look down on child molesters. So, I don't think that our outrage is that unusual.

What is unusual, however, is the fact that Maharaji really didn't do a whole lot about Jagdeo. What did Maharaji do about this? I don't know, but wasn't Jagdeo sorta banished to Thailand, the pedophile's paradise, or something like that?

Now, what Maharaji should have done, at the very least, would be to strip this creep of his Mahatma saffrons and send him packing back to the Motherland of India.

But no! Why didn't Maharaji do something to protect the lives of these innocent children? Did Jagdeo have something on Maharaji? Was Maharaji just thinking that molesting children wasn't such a bad thing. After all older men marry young girls all the time in India. Was Maharaji doing some damage control to avoid negative publicity - probably.

Whatever, Maharaji did too little too late and people's lives were greatly harmed. Pretty scummy from someone who was proclaiming himself to be God!

Maharaji seems to have a habit of sweeping problems under the rug ala Fakiranand when it comes to covering his own ass.

Peace of mind my ass!

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