Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 9

From: May 21, 1998

To: Jun 1, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5



Richard -:- Meditation -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:55:36 (EST)
__david -:- Meditation - context -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:16:29 (EST)
__Rick -:- Meditation -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:34:26 (EST)
__Katie -:- Meditation -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:55:13 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Meditation -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:26:51 (EST)
__John - South Africa -:- Meditation -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:27:59 (EST)
____Katie -:- Meditation -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:41:33 (EST)
______Richard -:- Meditation -:- Tues, May 26, 1998 at 06:08:59 (EST)

Brian -:- Forum Bugs -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 08:25:20 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Forum Bugs -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:15:20 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Forum Bugs -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 17:04:39 (EST)
____Brian -:- Forum Bugs -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 20:15:11 (EST)
__VP -:- Gold Stars -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:03:27 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Gold Stars -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:09:15 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Gold Stars -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:29:36 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Gold Stars -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:34:22 (EST)
________Katie -:- Gold Stars -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:35:46 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Gold Stars -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:47:51 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Gotta ask VP... -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:55:45 (EST)
____________VP -:- Gold Stars -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:18:57 (EST)
______________Scott T. -:- Gates and QWERTY -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 15:03:55 (EST)
______________Carol -:- Computer chat IE Windows -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 15:55:07 (EST)
__Katie -:- Help for Memphis and others -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:08:19 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Help for Memphis and others -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:32:17 (EST)
______Katie -:- Help for Memphis and others -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:37:07 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Help for Memphis and others -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:51:24 (EST)

Nigel -:- Loudon Wainwright's GMJ song -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 18:12:00 (EST)
__Cheddar -:- Loudon Wainwright's GMJ song -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 20:35:57 (EST)
____Selena -:- Loudon Wainwright's GMJ song -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 23:05:43 (EST)
______Ched-dar -:- Loudon Wainwright's GMJ song -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:11:05 (EST)
________Katie -:- Loudon Wainwright off topic -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:27:18 (EST)

VP -:- Video contradictions -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:52:46 (EST)
__John -:- Video contradictions -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:14:29 (EST)
____VP -:- Video contradictions -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:25:26 (EST)
______John -:- Video contradictions -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:42:24 (EST)
________VP -:- Video contradictions -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:53:00 (EST)
__________VP -:- e.e. cummings -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 16:02:07 (EST)
____________Memphis Belle -:- Yes, we already 'know' -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:00:55 (EST)
______________Memphis Belle -:- Yes, we already 'know' -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:07:30 (EST)
________________Memphis Belle -:- O.K. I'm FIRED UP!!! -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:47:47 (EST)
__________________Memphis Belle -:- It didn't submit whole mess! -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:52:34 (EST)
____________________Gerry -:- It didn't submit whole mess! -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 23:00:40 (EST)
____________________Brian -:- It didn't submit whole mess! -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 00:22:50 (EST)
____________________Katie -:- To Memphis Belle -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 20:51:15 (EST)
__________________John -:- Dont' stop -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 08:48:24 (EST)
______________VP -:- Yes, we already 'know' -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 00:04:55 (EST)

RT -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:42:01 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:45:43 (EST)
__Rick -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:06:04 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:02:05 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Bharagans -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:28:18 (EST)
__Selena -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:47:16 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:56:38 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:00:48 (EST)
__david f. -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:14:07 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:16:55 (EST)
______Robyn -:- David F. -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:18:37 (EST)
__Brian -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 23:02:48 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Mote vs. Moat -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:28:59 (EST)
__Carol -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 03:46:47 (EST)
__Richard -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:53:10 (EST)
____Selena -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:36:43 (EST)
______Katie -:- Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:55:28 (EST)

Robyn -:- dreging up from the Inactive -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:10:29 (EST)
__Carol -:- dreging up from the Inactive -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:32:59 (EST)

Brian -:- Satpal: Premies Where Are You? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:11:24 (EST)
__Jude -:- Satpal: Premies Where Are You? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:59:31 (EST)
____Sir David -:- Satpal: Premies Where Are You? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:14:32 (EST)
______Bruce -:- Satpal the expremie -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:56:02 (EST)
________John -:- Satpal is a wimp -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:14:55 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Satpal the expremie -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:21:10 (EST)
__________Bruce -:- SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 06:49:59 (EST)
____________Jude -:- SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 06:52:23 (EST)
______________Bruce -:- SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 07:25:53 (EST)
________________Jude -:- SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 08:18:46 (EST)
____________Gerry -:- SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 11:09:07 (EST)
______________Bruce -:- SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 07:34:13 (EST)
________________Jude -:- SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 08:25:36 (EST)
________________Gerry -:- Olive branch to Bruce -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:13:26 (EST)
____________Scott T. -:- This is pretty loose, Bruce -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:51:34 (EST)
______________Bruce -:- You're talking rot, Scott -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 07:17:35 (EST)
________________Jude -:- Family -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 08:33:18 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Bruce learns nothing -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 18:44:58 (EST)
__________________Bruce -:- Jim doesn't get it -:- Sun, May 24, 1998 at 10:49:58 (EST)
________________Memphis Belle -:- I have had K for 1yr. -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:43:14 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- I have had K for 1yr. -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:32:38 (EST)
________________Carol -:- The real form of M -:- Tues, May 26, 1998 at 03:06:45 (EST)
________Jim -:- Only a fool -:- Sat, May 23, 1998 at 23:46:19 (EST)
__________Bruce -:- Only a fool -:- Sun, May 24, 1998 at 10:59:36 (EST)


Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:55:36 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Meditation
Message:
Dear All,

I havn't done any deep meditation for quite a long time and none at all since first posting to this forum.

Since I learned meditation as a premie I have naturally attributed all my experiences to knowledge etc.. That was the context for my meditation experience. This sounds a little crazy but I would like to continue meditation but feel that I need to adjust my context.

I would be interested and grateful for any comments.

Richard
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:16:29 (EST)
From: david
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Richard
Subject: Meditation - context
Message:
Hi Richard.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'context.' Are you talking about another type of meditation? Or, another system of teaching besides the devotional model? Or, some combination, or something else?

I have been doing a buddhist meditation practice for many years, and certainly, to a some extent, make certain buddhist teachings and teachers the 'context' for my practice. What's different for me is that there is no other-worldly guru, or promise of escape from my own mind.

Pema Chodron, a teacher that I like, says: 'Meditation practice isn't about trying ot throw ourselves away and become something better. It's about befriending who we are already'

Quite a different 'context' from BM, I think, and one that I find more accessable and human.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:34:26 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Meditation
Message:
Doesn't sound crazy to me. I still meditate almost every day and basically do the same thing I used to do as a premie. The main differences are that I try to focus on what I feel emotionally as part of the process, and where I used to pray to BM, now I disavow him as anyting but a stepping stone to the meditation. Having shed the premie trip, I don't feel the kind of pressure to 'experience' something, as I used to. And I don't feel the kind of guilt I used to.

You could do a little ritual before you meditate... the way we used to pray to BM, only now you could tell him to fuck off. It's a nice experiment to see if he really dispenses the grace, the way he used to say he did.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:55:13 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Richard
Subject: Meditation
Message:
Dear Richard -
I think I know what you mean about meditating in context. I remember trying to meditate on the Word after I renounced Maharaji, and feeling like it somehow came from him and would link me back to him. Naturally I quit meditating!

I still don't use the techniques taught in the knowledge sessions but a number of people on this site do. One thing that really helped me understand that the knowledge meditation was not exclusively associated with M was finding out that the techniques had been taught in a number of other contexts (see Mark Appleman's journeys entry for a few examples).

Also, there was an ex who used to post on here that got knowledge in India and was taught NINE techniques (four of them were for the breath technique alone) by one of the mahatmas who had been taught by Maharaji's father. He said that when he came back to the States and got knowledge reviews he thought that the mahatmas were skipping parts of the techniques in order to give the review quickly. After this, I realized that the supposedly sacred knowledge techniques had been 'packaged' and simplified for us westerners! (Incidentally, after learning this, I lost all my remaining compunctions about revealing the techniques.)

In my opinion, learning about the history of the meditation techniques can help disassociate them from Maharaji. Of course, premies will tell you that the techniques are not important and that the 'grace' you get from M in the knowledge session is everything, which also disassociates the actual physical techniques from Maharaji. And, in my opinion, this makes you free to practice them, without being obligated to Maharaji.

Take care, Richard,
Katie

P.S. You mentioned somewhere that some people on this site know each other in the 'real world'. Actually almost all of us met on the site and have never laid eyes on each other. For example, I am Brian's assistant, but I have never seen him, and so forth. It's really great. I hope you're able to get some sort of computer access after your job ends so you can keep in touch.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:26:51 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Richard
Subject: Meditation
Message:
Dear Richard,
As far as feeling like the meditation is not part of BM I think Ricks suggestion is excellent. I just felt inside that it had nothing to do with BM but what a test that would be, eh? Let us know if you try it, how it works.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:27:59 (EST)
From: John - South Africa
Email: molode@mweb.co.za
To: Everyone
Subject: Meditation
Message:
Thanks Richard, David, Rick, Catie, Robyn for this thread !
This is my first posting since I found this site about a month ago and started following it, and I feel ok now, that
my experience of meditation..K..whatever, sans the BM/premie
hype is GOOD.

What you guys are saying is what I always expected and under-
stood this thing to be all about. One thing I heard the man
say during the early 70's just before I asked Mahatma Josaben?
for K was, 'if it works for you..if it gives you peace - enjoy
it! If not..immediately go out and leave it!

That was what I wanted then, and it's what I still want now -
sweet and simple - during a tough day managing a movie location
or whatever the hell each day brings me..there's always that little retreat into pure and private sensual reality - when
open eye, ear and whatever perception get cluttered by whatever other political shit is going down otherwise, or perhaps it's
just the very last thing I'm doing before I nod off.

Hey, it's peaceful, it's sensual and calming.. it's real, and screw the head stuff about whatever else M and his desciples
say are prerequisites to this experience.

Thanks all for a great connection.

Aren't we all missing a point here It was always the experience of peace nowlwdgeAmirlaben and on
.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:41:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: John - South Africa
Subject: Meditation
Message:
To John SA -
Welcome to the forum! I liked your post very much, and I'm glad that you can appreciate the meditation techniques without getting into Maharaji's 'master' trip. Hope to hear from you again.

Regards,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 06:08:59 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: All..
Subject: Meditation
Message:
Dear All,

All messages gratefully received and understood,

Thanx

Richard
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 08:25:20 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Forum Bugs
Message:
I just squashed another bug that had been kept secret here. Microsoft Internet Exploder users that were having problems with the HTML being stripped out of previewed (and edited) messages, should now find that it works.

Thanks Gerry for pointing it out and helping with the testing. You are hereby awarded a Golden Star - one of the most valuable possessions that any Forum III participant can hope to possess!

Windows 3.1 Users:

I've seen the instances of your posts being cut off short. After checking Memphis Belle's latest problem posts, it looks like there is a buffer problem with Win 3.1 and/or IE 3.0 and 3.01. Appears that post content gets cut off suspiciously close to 1024 bytes. Since the forum software does some character translations, I can't be certain - but it does look very suspicious to me.

I would recommend that you upgrade to a later version and see if the problem goes away. Alternately, you might also check with Microsoft to see if there is a way to re-configure the size of whatever buffer is involved. (Couldn't even begin to guess, myself.)

Here is a link for Microsoft Internet Exploder: Click here.

Here is one for IE 3.02 for Windows 3.1: Click here.

That's about all the help I can offer on the subject.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:15:20 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Brian
Subject: Forum Bugs
Message:
Dear Brian,
I think Gerry should get some points don't you? Who is keeping track, Petrou....
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 17:04:39 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Forum Bugs
Message:
Brian:

I recall having mentioned this bug once, but was given to understand that it was unique to my setup. Haven't been able to repost after a review for a long time, but have been making corrections in Word, deleting the contents of the text window, and then pasting in the edited text from Word. Glad you and Gerry fixed the bug.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 20:15:11 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Scott T.
Subject: Forum Bugs
Message:
I guess I either didn't understand what you described, or else I minimized the problem for some reason. Guess I'm just ruled by whim :)

Anyway, sorry to have ignored it so long.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:03:27 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gold Stars
Message:
Gerry,
If you use IE and get a gold star from Brian, that is REALLY something.

snicker
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:09:15 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Gold Stars
Message:
Gates for God In 2000!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:29:36 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Gold Stars
Message:
Gerry:

'Microsoft' is really Bill's pet name for his weewee.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:34:22 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Gold Stars
Message:
hey shouldn't you be studying or somethin'?

PS Good Luck!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:35:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Gold Stars
Message:
Scott, honey - you AWFUL thing! Don't you know that Bill Gates is VP's best friend? I'd just HATE it if all your software failed from now on!!!

Hope you like my southern belle imitation (it's true about VP, though!)
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:47:51 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Gold Stars
Message:
Katie:

Prempal's claim to fame and fortune involved passing himself off as the sole legitimate franchise holder for a free experience. Bill Gates' claim to fame and fortune is no less ignoble. It involves an active and carefully thought out strategy to take advantage of a type of 'market failure' often referred to as 'lock in.' What you do is control the standard, and manage to make yourself the exclusive franchise holder for that standard. To most people it looks like 'clever competition' but it's really more like a cheap con. I can't believe VP likes him. You have to be kidding.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:55:45 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Gotta ask VP...
Message:
Scott, I really do not know. All I know is that I refuse to use IE because I do not want Bill Gates to rule the world. Otherwise, I don't have anything against him. As for the rest, check with VP... (sorry, VP!)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:18:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Gold Stars
Message:
Scott and all,
Bill and Prem do have one category in common. One is a clever capitalist. The other is a clever capitalist who claims to be God. I take more of an issue with what M does because he is ripping people off for their lives and souls, which on my heiarchy of sin is a worse offense than putting other companies out of buisness. (Yes, I know the repurcussions of destroying the competition. I know that it effects people's lives, but at least when the day is over, rich or poor a person out of a job still owns their own self. This from my personal experience.)

There are some things I do not like about Bill, but they have less to do with his approaches to the market and with the competition than they have to do with his approaches with his company teammates. (Check out that syntax-shoo!)

VP
Willing to hear more about this, having only heard Bill's side and a little bit from Brian.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 15:03:55 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Gates and QWERTY
Message:
VP:

Well, suppose I had come on the scene after the first typewriters were produced and had obtained a patent on the 'QWERTY' keyboard layout? True, there are almost an infinite variety of possible layouts, but the one nearly everyone uses is QWERTY. That would pretty much make me the kingpin, because the cost of retraining all those secretaries and typists on another layout is too expensive for most employers. Of course, no one thought to do this with typewriters, but Gates learned about this example of 'lock in' during his B-school education and correctly reasoned: 1. That it could be accomplished deliberately with any fledgling technology; and 2. people would not catch on to what he was doing because the mechanism of the 'lock in' phenomenon is not even all that clear to most economists, and is still controversial. What he had, provided he could secure the standard, was a guaranteed monopoly strategy that was not subject to the SEC regulations and limitations.

This was certainly clever in the sense that no one up to that point had thought to do this deliberately, but it was also amoral. He knew, and knows, that he is undermining the market. Most people countering Gates focus on the wrong things. He is now desperate to undermine the Java standard which is independent of him, and which would, in time, completely eliminate his advantage. That's what this is all about. In other words, if left unchecked he can use his present leverage in the Windows operating system environment to gain a proprietary lock on the newly evolving Java standard. It's not very pretty, but why else would he be so insistent about bundling his browser with his operating system? He wants to introduce some 'creative pollution.'

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 15:55:07 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Computer chat IE Windows
Message:
My husband is a brilliant hardware designer who also refused to use IE on our new computer and despises windows, especially windows 95. He says it limits what he is able to do. He hates the requirement of using a mouse to click on everything when he was so much better and faster at using his older methods. I appreciate the use of tools that allow a computer illiterate like me to successfully use the computer, but there ought to be an option for professionals to use what workd for them. It seems many others in his company want everything new desite the set-backs! Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:08:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Help for Memphis and others
Message:
If you have a problem with your posts being cut off - HIGHLIGHT and COPY your post before you make it. That way you can fill in the blank if you happen to get cut off.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:32:17 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Help for Memphis and others
Message:
Katie:

There are some people for whom these instructions will sound like the Apollo 13 launch sequence.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:37:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Help for Memphis and others
Message:
Yeah, but only for you, not for Memphis Belle!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:51:24 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Help for Memphis and others
Message:
Katie:

Sorry, I had a momentary lapse of savvy.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 18:12:00 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Loudon Wainwright's GMJ song
Message:
Does anybody know Loudon Wainwright's 'Unrequited' album from the mid 70's? It has a song called 'Guru' which is about our very own Big Mac (or at least the Guru song I once heard him doing was - but that may have been a live/bootleg recording).

I was a premie and a non-premie played me a tape of it, probably wanting to see my reaction. The joke was on him, though, since he received K a few months later.

The song begins:

Down in Southern California there's a guru who's guru of all...

A bit later he sings about the followers who kiss his lotus feet . And in case anybody's still in any doubt, he recites the last verse in a pretty good impersonation of the teenage BM giving satsang. If anyone can help here, I wouldn't mind hearing it again, or at least reading the lyrics on the forum.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 20:35:57 (EST)
From: Cheddar
Email: David.Stdio57@btinternet.comu
To: Nigel
Subject: Loudon Wainwright's GMJ song
Message:
I haven't heard that track but would be intigued to hear it. I used to be well into Loudon Wainwright III in the late sixties. John Peel used to play his songs on 'Top Gear'. Remember that?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 23:05:43 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Cheddar
Subject: Loudon Wainwright's GMJ song
Message:
Talk about bringing up the past! I met his 'friend' in the 80's, went club hopping with this person, so I
listened to some of his music. How weird. Very few
people I know know who he is. But, sadly, I think
I would have recognized the guru song and remembered it, if I had heard it. Interesting.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:11:05 (EST)
From: Ched-dar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Selena
Subject: Loudon Wainwright's GMJ song
Message:
LW III must be bigger over here than over there. He's still popular and regularly does sell out gigs.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:27:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Ched-dar
Subject: Loudon Wainwright off topic
Message:
I'm really glad to hear that Loudon made it big in the UK. The only US hit he had was 'Dead Skunk in the Middle of the Road'. I always liked his songs and am glad he found an audience.

P.S. I would LOVE to hear his GMJ song!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:52:46 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Video contradictions
Message:
ok,ok, I know I am really supposed to be writing a review of these films, and I will, but I just had to share something with you guys here. I just finished watching two M videos last night courtesty of Selena and Katie. IMHO, they contradicted themselves.

The first film I watched was a short one and seemed to be introductory in nature. It was called 'Becoming Aware'. I think this may be an aspirant video, as the message was very seductive. In the video M is talking about human happiness. He also talks about that longing that we all have within our lives. M says that longing is good because we have the possibility to be quenched. From what is said, Knowledge is the thing that is going to quench your thirst. Maharaji said one thing that was very right on-he said not to let anyone tell you what is going to make you happy. I think this is wise, and should be applied to him as well. (In other words, who is he to tell me that K or devotion will make me happy, you know?) Anyway, even though he gives this advice, he then turns around and gives the message that quenching our longing with an inside spiritual experience is the key to our happiness.

The next one I saw is one called 'A Good Friend' (the journey is the destination). I think this video is probably for premies only, because of the content, but I may be wrong about that (someone with an orange fortune cookie catalog know?) The whole video is about what a Master is and what he can do for you. This video pretty much shoots to hell the notion I have heard proposed here (by different premies) that M is not really a Master. (Any premies who are hanging onto that idea had better buy this video and watch it fast!)

I give the guy points for being clever enough to completely let himself off of the hook. He says that you should not judge the master by how he speaks or looks nor by his actions or words, but by his caring. (I don't know about you, brothers and sisters, but that would pretty well rule out M for me!) He tells the captive audience that they need to come to the Master without a bowl to be filled. If you have a bowl(expectations), he maintains, then the master can give you nothing. Clever.

He talks about how a Master is different from a teacher-which also blows some of the lame premie arguments I have heard here, too. ( M is just a teacher? Haven't you guys been listening to M? Sheesh!) Teacher can show you that the thing on the table is bread, but master can help you to taste the bread, etc. Also the master can make you so much better at whatever you are doing in your life. We cannot see things without him either. He shows us ourselves. We cannot see our own nose or eye, but he is the mirror that we can truely see ourselves in. He tells us we are beautiful and then in the next breath, gives the message that we aren't worthy of receiving our gifts from him. We hear the music of the flute, but are we worthy of hearing this sweetness? Take the gifts from him, even though we are not worthy. We are good and beautiful but not worthy? We can take freely of the Master and enjoy his giving. (What a prince, huh?)

The main point that he makes in this film is that everyone should experience the devotional experience with a master-a LIVING master, BTW. Basically what M is saying is that this devotion is the crux of the longing that we have in our lives-not knowledge, not enlightenment. Relationship with the master is what everyone should not miss out on. Direct contradiction from the message in the introductory video! He says that this relationship is real, even though neither of you have ever met or exchanged words with one another. It is REAL...(really think about that for a minute everyone;)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:14:29 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Video contradictions
Message:
VP, thanks for your comments.

The essence of my disagreement with M is his insistence that the relationship with The Master is what I secretly am longing for.

After ten years of a relationship with The Master, I realized that this relationship was all in my imagination. The love I felt for The Master was no different than the love I had felt for 'God' ever since I was a little kid. Or the indescribeable feelings I get in any number of situations - in a forest, by the sea, in the mountains, with friends, in church, at a really good movie, etc. etc.

M is trying to tap into that feeling which we all possess anyway and take ownership of it.

Aren't those videos really embarassingly sappy? All the closeups of his face, the saccharine sweet music, YECHH!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:25:26 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Video contradictions
Message:
One that I saw was actually pretty well done, they showed other people and scenes instead of M while he is talking. Good move. That's another reason why I think that it was an introductory video. I'm with you on the music and close ups of his face. No thanks.

Did you ever notice all of the little quotes from ee cummings, Kahlil Gibran and Kabir that are flashed up onto the screen? I am sure ee cummings is copyrighted, so I imagine it is okay to quote M here, as he is quoting others in his videos. They get money for those things, right?

(BTW, I didn't mean to say that devotion was the 'crux' in that last sentence- I meant to say that devotion was the 'quencher'.Sorry about that.)

I agree with what you said about our own experiences. They belong to us. No one can own them, no one can give them to us. In one of the videos M talks about how a mother doesn't have to teach a baby how to enjoy. Well, Maharaji doesn't have to teach us how to enjoy either. We know. It is within us even without Knowledge and without Maharaji. There's my answer for Memphis Belle.

Have a good one, VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:42:24 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Video contradictions
Message:
Quotes from ee cummings? really? like what? I put some of his poems to music and had a difficult time obtaining permission. Cummings' work is under tight control. For instance, one requirement the publisher imposed on me was that not one word could be changed, and the entire poem had to be quoted, one line could not extracted and used.

But then maybe there are different rules for videos.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:53:00 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Video contradictions
Message:
John, Very Interesting! Let me watch again and I'll get back to you. I didn't memorize it. Going to the TV now, VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 16:02:07 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John
Subject: e.e. cummings
Message:
Okay, I found it. From M's video 'Becoming Aware' -19 minutes:

'here is the deepest secret nobody knows
here is the root of the root
and the bud of the bud and the sky of the sky
of a tree called life; which grows higher
than soul can hope or mind can hide
and this is the wonder that's keeping the stars apart'-e.e.cummings
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:00:55 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Yes, we already 'know'
Message:
VP,

Thank you for your comments about knowing joy.
I also believe that joy is already within us, without Knowledge or M.

I wonder what M would say about a baby who is not experiencing joy. This would probably occur when a baby is very hungry or thirsty, desparately needs changing, or is left alone in a room on a cold floor.

On the other more pleasant hand, if the baby is well fed, clean, and comfortable in a crib or something, then the baby can begin to experience joy.

Who is providing the baby with a chance for joy?
The mom (or dad)!

So yes the joy is already within us, but without the love and support of the family, it cannot happen.

Now then, I'm sure that a premie will come along and say that the love and support comes from M.

I would like to challenge them and say that M. is their mother, father, and family in their ADULT LIFE.

This is only my opinion, but it is supported by the fact that as I get to know more premies, I find out that many are not married, don't have kids,
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:07:30 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Yes, we already 'know'
Message:
I just wrote a really long message but it didn't all get sent!
What happene!

I Got all fired up too!
I am sad that I can't re-write everything that I was all fired up about.............
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:47:47 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: EVERONE
Subject: O.K. I'm FIRED UP!!!
Message:
I have heard M say at programs, 'I know that you may have fears and doubts.' I would like to stand up and say...

YES! THAT IS RIGHT!
I have many fears and doubts!
Maharaji, I have doubts when I see you on the stage, in the center! I have doubts because there are thousands of other people in the hall with me looking up at you and I feel like it is a church where we, the people are looking up at you.

People look like they worship you.
I do not worship you.
I WILL NOT WORSHIP YOU.
IT bother'S me that people seem to be WORSHIPING YOU.
I mean come on, one of the singers who sang to you was crying on the stage because she was in you PRESENCE.

I WANT TO BE IN THE PRESENCE OF GOD.
I DON't EVEN KNOW YOU.

I THOUGHT THAT KNOWLEDGE WAS A WAY FOR THE HEART FEEL GOD.
INSTEAD, IT HAS TURNED INTO HOW OFTEN I PRACTICE, HOW OFTEN I GO TO VIDEOS, FLYING TO PROGRAMS, AND BEING FORCED TO WATCH VIDEOS.

IF YOU, MAHARAJI, TRULY UNDERSTOOD knowledge THEN YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND THAT A VIDEO WITH NICE FOOTAGE
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:52:34 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: It didn't submit whole mess!
Message:
Why is not submitting the whole message?!?
Is there someone out there doing this or is it a bug?
Help! it was a long message with lots of content.
I don't get it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 23:00:40 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: It didn't submit whole mess!
Message:
'Belle

Don't know about the bug but certainly no one is censoring you on the forum's end. Hey keep up the line of though. You're asking some important questions and making some really clear statements.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 00:22:50 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: It didn't submit whole mess!
Message:
I've seen this happening with some people, but haven't been able to nail down the cut-off point to fix it. Look back over your posts that were clipped and see if you can remember the character that was typed at the cut-off point.

BTW, you're using IE 3.0 and there's an update (3.02) that fixes some of the bugs in Mr. Bill's earlier efforts to play Internet God. It's avalailable for your Win 3.1 here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 20:51:15 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: To Memphis Belle
Message:
Hi Memphis - if you're still around. Sorry the forum bug cut you off (read Brian's explanation below). I got a lot out of reading part of it - hope you got as much out of writing all of it! Again, I am sorry that you got cut off - I know that must be frustrating.

Regards from Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 08:48:24 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: Dont' stop
Message:
Memphis:

I like what you're getting at. I wish you really would do that. That is demand answers and explanations from M. It's what I did not have the guts to do when I was a premie. He never encouraged two way communication,of course we were not worthy to be at his level. So, I just slunked away and tried to forget about the whole thing.

But then when you think about it, what does he really have to teach? At eight he was crowned Lord of the Universe. He never had to be an insecure teenager trying to fit in somewhere, having to make friends, go out on dates, figure out what to do after high school, learning a skill, making money etc.. At 16, he 'selected' his wife. He never had to work for a living. He had people fawning all over him, serving him, at his beck and call 24 hours a day, did he ever change a diaper, or wash the dishes, or cook for the kids after working all day? With all those servants around him all the time, how could he understand what a normal human being has to go through?

Very simply to just say 'Enjoy life'. And I think that's why his message is so simple, simple as in simple-minded.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 00:04:55 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: Yes, we already 'know'
Message:
'So yes the joy is already within us, but without the love and support of the family, it cannot happen.'

This is true for a baby, yes. But do we need someone to clothe and feed us? Are we not adults? I do not need Maharaji to hold my hand. I do crave and enjoy the company of other people, no man is an island. But can I survive by myself without a master, Yes! (My family is important, don't get me wrong.)

In response to the post below, MB, I was also told that K was God, but when I have practiced the techniques, this does not hold true for me. M is not God either, IMHO.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:42:01 (EST)
From: RT
Email: none yet
To: Everyone
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
Slogans for an Ex-Premie.org. business card.
HAVE FUN - WILL TRAVEL. Humor Me!

OK, It is my intention to print the cards and so I'd like a consensus!
BRIAN: your comments especially welcome.

The Back of the card will only show the Ex-premie.Org logo and a SLOGAN. In Color.

The front of the card will read:
Many of us who contributed our services, our money, and our devotion to his professed 'mission' of establishing World peace have grown disgusted with his having used those contributions for his personal enrichment, and we have broken free of the personality cult surrounding him. Visit us at www.ex-premie.org.

Please pick your favorite 3, Next week, May 29th, I will announce the Winner. ALL People who choose the winner or submit a winner get 50 free cards mailed to them, my treat. Comments welcome, OK to change words, take your time. Thanks! 'When the students are ready, The teacher will respond'

EX-PREMIE.ORG: slogan

1. WE ARE THE ORG. RESISTANCE IS LOGICAL.

2. Who Is Booing Maharaji?

3. Truth is, Our Consciousness is Pissed.

4. Ji-Whiz?

5. We Searched with Real Eyes.

6. It's a Mock of Chit!

7. Just Say Know !

8. We 'Real Eyes' Knowledge.

9. Holy Shame, Atman!

10. Setting Our Baraguns to Stun.

11. Our Vision is: Real Eyes.

12. M's 'Ocean' is a Moat!

13. After 20-plus years, We see Maharaji's boat, Is Circling his Residence; That 'Ocean' is a Moat!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:45:43 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: RT
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
Dear RT,
I haven't read that whole thread yet but I LOVE #10: Setting our Baraguns to Stun!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:06:04 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
I think the front of the card should just have the page logo and URL. On the back it should say 'Just say know'. Keep it sweet, mysterious and simple. More people will visit the site.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:02:05 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
R.T.:

Overall, I think my vote goes for a slightly altered version of 12.

1. is a bit long, but to the point. 4. 'Ji Whiz' is clever, but might give premies altitude sickness, or at least nosebleeds. The same goes for 9. 'Holy shame, Atman!' I also like 10. 'Setting Baraguns to Stun,' but many modern premies don't know what a Bharagan is.

Finally, I like both 12 and 13, but prefer 12. It says the same thing, with lower overhead. I would, however, change the spelling from 'moat' to 'mote,' which means 'a very small speck, or particle' and evokes consideration of Luke 6: 41-42. This passage in Luke is preceded by verse 40, 'The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master;' and is followed by verse 43, 'For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.' It encourages followers to look at the master from something other than the authoritarian position Maharaji demands. This is still like an Everest for most premies, but the reference is mysterious enough that their attention may be momentarily diverted.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:28:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Scott T.
Subject: Bharagans
Message:
Dear Scott,
I didn't know they don't use bharagans anymore! Does BM think it right to take away that small comfort! Just kidding. I got my bharagan from a guy in chiropractic school who practiced on me and didn't know what he was doing. He felt bad and made me one. To bad I lost track of it, it would make good kindling!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:47:16 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
I like number 7. Thanks for the suggestions.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:56:38 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: RT
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
'Just say Know' is excellent. I'm with Rick on this one - amibiguity is everything. You have to bait the line carefully, just like the first satsang you ever heard was carefully laced with everything that your premie friend thought you most wanted to hear.

How about this one from CD (in a recent thread):

'The obvious is not always apparent.'

or maybe:

'The Truth is very simple.'

'Learning about the Master.'

or simply:

Realization.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:00:48 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
How about A little Knowledge is a Dangerous Thing
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:14:07 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
how about
'What ever happened to the fat boy guru? (optionally followed by) Ask me.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:16:55 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail
To: david f.
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
Dear David F,
I was just wondering where and how you were doing last night. OK, I hope!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:18:37 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: david f.
Subject: David F.
Message:
that last message I posted, just above or below this one was to you and I forgot to change the subject, sorry,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 23:02:48 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: RT
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
I don't live near programs, since Maharaji has scaled down his US propagation efforts vastly from the Millennium plan. So I don't have an opportunity to pass out anything. You're printing some cards to pass out, so it's your choice.

I was going to put this at the top of the home page: Where Knowledge Brought Us, but went with what's there instead. I would recommend that you not use any misspellings (mote) that require people to know more than what's on the card. Your cleverness will fall flat, since there is no context supplied to understand the joke. My jokes here often have to be explained.

Good luck with it. Be sure to send one to MJ for his wallet :)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:28:59 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Mote vs. Moat
Message:
Biran:

What makes you think premies would know 'mote' is misspelled?

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 03:46:47 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
I vote for 7, 12 and 13.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:53:10 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: RT
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
Hi RT,

Havn't spoken to you before so apologies if I appear to be critical. The problem with this kind of thing often lies in identifying the target audience and providing the right kind of hook.

My first impressions of the forum were that, although it was highly critical of Maharaji, it was extremely compassionate towards the premies. This is what encouraged me to engage.

That impression would be very difficult to convey in a slogan, especially one that used humour since we all laugh at different things. It may well be the case that what seems bland to people here would have the widest popular appeal. Making a successful humorous dig at Maharaji isn't the same as encouraging folks to take a look see at the forum.

On the other hand I think that publicity and cards in general are a great idea, I'm just not sure about the slogan.

I have been getting some therapy recently and, with the support provided by this forum, have been able to begin to discuss my involvement with Maharaji. My counsellor and her colleagues, it turns out, are aware of a substantial body of 'premies', yes she used the word with familiarity, who are having severe emotional problems. And this is in my local area alone.

She was astounded, her word, that a resource like the forum existed on the 'net and was full of praise for the concept. Now that she is aware of it she hopes to direct some of her premie clients to the site.

Now if I had cards to give to her...see what I'm saying. So my somewhat lame contribution is...maybe bland is good.

Richard

PS I just re-read this post and can't believe the convoluted, analytical nit-pickedness of it all. I'm just having one of those days.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:36:43 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
Where Knowledge Brought Us is good too. (gopi conciousness again I guess) It would catch people off guard, it sounds like a title M would use for a video or 'essay' or one of his so called poems.
Richard, I didn't think your post was convoluted or analytical. I appreciate hearing about what you therapist had to say about premies. It helps me see that I wasn't all that off the mark in my assessment of them. Thanks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:55:28 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: RT, Richard, Selena
Subject: Slogans Ex-ercise: FUN
Message:
Hi Richard and Selena,
I agree with both of you here. I also did NOT think your post was convoluted and nit-picky, Richard - I think you raised a good point. My personal preference is also 'where Knowledge brought us' (I'm a gopi too, but I do disagree with the Perfect Webmaster on occasion!).

Richard, I'm suprised that your therapist knows so many premies - amazing. I'd be very interested in hearing more of what she has to say.

Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:10:29 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: dreging up from the Inactive
Message:
To all,
I am slowly getting caught up with all the posts I've missed. I was in the inactive list and reading about moon cycles and such. First, I liked your joke Brian, and I think it was great that you and Micheal could join in. We are all just human beings and enven though I usually am affected in one way or another by my cycle for 2 or 3 weeks of the month, which I hate, I don't think that being dismissed as emotional is appropriate. I'm not saying either of you did this, I'm just stating my general opinion. Sometimes I do get emotional over absurd things and recognize that and can laugh about it but other things that make me more emotional at that time help me to 'see' things that I would not notice otherwise. Things I need to address within myself or for another person, animal I care about. Kind of a heightened awareness which although not always fun, serves a purpose.

eb- I hope I was coherent in email as I was totally drained and exhauste, my PMS time, by the way! Made all this so much more intense. I wanted to tell you Jade laughs and cries at the same time sometimes too! I still remember the first time. It was funny but made me feel kind of sad for her too. I took notes on that thread so I might remember most of what I want to say and I wanted to respond to your writing about your meds. Without any back ground knowledge (remember that!) I think that chemical imbalances in the brain can be helped with meds if that imbalance has no other root than a misfunctioning brain output that just seems logical to me. I think of meds in general as a last resort. Most importantly I think you have to trust your doctor and hold similar beliefs. For me that is MUCH easier said than done. I have a GP whom I love as a person but think she is just a so so doctor. There isn't much to choose from around here, a down fall of country living but I have known people from this area with serious problems or children with problems who go to NYC or Philly or Pittsburg.
The other night when I lost it, it was like I was pulling myself apart inside. I felt like I needed support more than I had in a very long time. I usually feel pretty strong. I had a shocking realizaton though because I felt myself coil up and knew reaching out at that moment was the hardest thing-and I couldn't do it!
Also, Jessica, my 21 yr old apologized for her adolesence 2 years ago. It did help a lot! Better late than never.

Carol-Thanks for your post and I'm sorry I missed being involved in that thread. A good friend I use to work with also clued me into the realization that often my sleeplessness is just part of the fun of my cycle. I think stress makes all this much worse also. I really appreciate all of you women also. I've lost your email. I want to send you a little something. I'll have to look for it on one of your posts. I am on a similar cycle to yours apparently so maybe we will get there eventually! I heard somewhere, years ago that women who are in close proximity, ie: work, home do that as you stated but that the most dominant woman will go first and on down the list. I use to get very pissed when Jess would go first and would feel strong if I did! I still think about it with Jade but there isn't as much of a power struggle between us.

Katie-You know I just love you to pieces even if you do like Elvis, I never did like him and react to his music as if he was a Jehovah Witness accousting me! I hope I haven't offended you with my opinions on emotions and my cycle or my opinions of Elvis for that matter. You know I identify with men and have, at most times in my life, been closer to men than women, my mom's influence maybe. Anyway,taking an indefinite hiatus from relationships has open the way for women in my life. I appreciate them more now than ever and now find myself working again on relating to men. This forum has been a big help for me there.

Selena-I appreciate you too! I feel like I am just getting to know you, Jude, eb and Carol although I feel a real connection to you all already! <3 As far as People vs. Larry Flynnt. I really liked the movie but have a funny story.... I was looking for a movie to rent and saw Woddy whatever (bad with last names!) on the cover and thought that was the movie. I didn't think about the name which was King Pin, I thought that sounded right. I was watching it at home, waiting for something to happen when my oldest daughter called, who had said it (People vs. ...) was very good. I asked her when they got into the main part of the story and she realized I'd rented the wrong movie. It was to funny! That movie was about BOWLING!!!!! I liked the People vs. much better.

Micheal-Thanks for your kind words about Jade. She really is a good kid most of the time it is just when she does something wrong she spares no expence! This is a very stressfull time in both our lives, I am just gone to much. Four and a half months done and 2.5 months of 2 jobs to go! I can sense when Jade needs to spend more time with me and that is just when she doesn't want to most. Like me the other night. That was the sense I was getting the week before she did this. Maybe that is 1 reason why she did it. Now we are talking and connecting a lot for different reasons, one of which is being around each other.

The only way I can relate this all to BM is that if we didn't all have that in common we wouldn't know each other and I thank god for all of you.
Love,
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:32:59 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: Robyn
Subject: dreging up from the Inactive
Message:
Thanks for the comments Robyn and and glad you doing better. I agree that the jokes were funny and did not take offense. But usually,it makes a difference for women *who* is calling them emotional for the cyclic reasons in much the same way as it matters who is using a racial slur. For example there are names that some black people call their black friends that would be totally unacceptible for a white person to call a black person! But even those rules change when the relationship between the people of different races or sexes is close and you know eachother well. But you probably all already know this and I'm just pointing out the obvious! Sorry! My e-mail address can always (I think) be found in the White Pages of this site. :) Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:11:24 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Satpal: Premies Where Are You?
Message:
Satpal Maharaj (Satguru and big brother to the Ex-Lord Of The Universe) has come!! Yet premies can't even see the posts on this forum announcing the Great Event!!

What is this? Magic?? Grace?? A software bug??

Premies, let me know what browser you're using and I'll try to track down the problem. Post here if you can see this thread.

All I really know about it so far is that your responses to the announcement don't get posted for some reason...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:59:31 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Satpal: Premies Where Are You?
Message:
I can see this particular post. Was there another one? If so, what is that called and I'll let you know if I can see that. If not, don't bother to reply. Thanks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:14:32 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jude
Subject: Satpal: Premies Where Are You?
Message:
It takes a while to fathom Brian's wry sense of humour, Jude. I finally got the joke after reading his post for the third time. Of course no premies have posted about Satpal. Brian was commenting on this in his own inimitable way.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:56:02 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: phoenix@b024.aone net au
To: Sir David and Brian
Subject: Satpal the expremie
Message:
I'm afraid that you guys are wrong yet again

I have posted a few things about Satpal here.

What I said one time was how hilarious it was that expremies were sending Satpal up for not remembering that his younger brother had always been the master

This astounding memory loss is typical of expremies.

It so happens guys and girls,
that dear Satpal IS AN EXPREMIE TOO !!

So why not welcome and embrace him as another of your kind.

Funny how Jim shut up real quick when I pointed this out.!

Or maybe he can't see this post, right Brian?

Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:14:55 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Satpal is a wimp
Message:
Bruce, you're missing an important point. We, the ex's on this forum admit openly that we once followed Prempal, right?
Satpal does NOT openly admit that. That's why we laugh at Satpal. We laugh at Satpal for pretending that he never worshipped his little bro.

Satpal is not a real ex if he never admits that he followed Prempal.

Being an expremie is an enlightened state of being where the individual openly admits their behavior in the past and begins to clearly and objectively view M's behavior and actions.

Satpal has a way to go before he can be welcomed into our company.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:21:10 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Satpal the expremie
Message:
Bruce:

What I said one time was how hilarious it was that expremies were sending Satpal up for not remembering that his younger brother had always been the master.... This astounding memory loss is typical of expremies.

Huh? Since when have exes failed to make note of the fact that Maharaji has always claimed to be 'perfect master?' It is premies that seem to forget this from time to time, as well as the other uncomfortable fact that Maharaji once expended a great deal of energy impersonating Godddd. Have you missed something?

-Scott T.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 06:49:59 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Scott T. and John
Subject: SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE
Message:
Scott,John,

Perhaps I need to express things more clearly.

What I am saying is that memory loss is typical of expremies.

Not just any memory loss, but a specific memory loss in relation to
positive and loving experiences of M.

Satpal, M's older brother who now apparently doesn't remember
the actual events as they really happened back then, is in my view typical of expremies in that he denies the experience and understanding that he once had, namely that M. is the master, and that the path of K. is one of learning as a student of that master.

So in that sense Satpal by not remembering M's existence is doing essentially the same thing as any other expremie is doing.

That is, forgetting or denying that M. is the master of our time.

To me this is the definition of an expremie.

Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 06:52:23 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE
Message:
Sometimes you hate the one you loved when you feel you have been taken advantage of by someone more powerful than you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 07:25:53 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE
Message:
Jude,

I don't know what you're on or on about, but thanks for adding
to the thread my point I'm trying to get across, that

SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE

At least in my definition.

Take it easy,
Bruce

PS Did you read my answer to your concern about lack of practice facilities at Amaroo?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 08:18:46 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE
Message:
I am talking about feelings towards Maharaji. Or maybe, towards Prem Rawal.

Also, I should have said 'perceived greater power' or 'in a role of greater power' because then it is more obvious that when someone like that turns out to be not 100% upfront about what they are really doing, it is not only an abuse of the people who trusted them but an abuse of their position and of themselves. If I put myself up to be a Perfect Master, don't you think I would have some responsibility about my treatment of others and what I did with the money they gave me because I said I was the perfect master. Because I spent a long time building an empire, and the people who believed in me had too much to lose (some of them) to actually say:
The Emperor has No Clothes

why do you come here and just say abusive things, do you really think you are going to prove some point? If you still love and believe in him, then go and listen to a video and see your mirror there. Your polished, professional, performing ACTOR.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 11:09:07 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE
Message:
...M. is the master of our time.

My loss of memory as an Ex involves forgetting that premies actually do sincerely believe the above statement. This can be fatal, (as demonstated by the tragedy of premie suicide) but does not have to be permanent.

A competent NLP practitioner should be able to blow out that particular belief in about 30 minutes. There are lots of them around. Let me know if you want help locating one.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 07:34:13 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE
Message:
Gerry,

Thanks for the offer. Over here, NLP stands for National Liberal Party. They are a bunch of red necked nazi types.

I guess you didn't really mean them,right?

Nice Little People perhaps?

I'm overwelmed by your care and concern for my sad delusion
about M.

Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 08:25:36 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: SATPAL IS an EXPREMIE
Message:
Over here NLP stands for Neuro Linguistic Programming just like it does over there. There is one book I read about it called 'Frogs to Princes'. I personally didn't find it much help but it is an interesting concept. Anything that attempts to heal people is good, IMHO
Why toss around words like sad and delusional? It sounds so self-hating. How do you feel about yourself, no matter what others think of you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:13:26 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Olive branch to Bruce
Message:
Bruce,

I take it you are in Great Britain? Pardon my ignorance of GB politics. Funny that the National Liberal Party is actually a fascist party. So much for labels. Liberals here in the States are left leaning .

You said something someplace else about a power emanating from M. I did not experience this but apparently lots of people around me did . Can you explain it to me? It's something that has always puzzled me about the whole thing. Maybe that's why I didn't last long as a premie. I was believing the words he said and when these started to ring false to me, I left.

Of course I don't believe premies are murderers, thieves and liars. Sorry I aroused such a reaction in you. (perfectly understandable and natural, coming from where you stand) It was wrong to say it that way. Certainly a case could be made for the cult leaders to be such, but I don't want to start a battle over it. I would like to understand the attraction to M. I can understand the basic human longing for 'reunion' so to speak, but not the cult thing.

Believe it or not Bruce and do feel compassion for people caught in this cult or any other cult. This one just happens to be the one I am familiar with and can speak with some inside knowledge and experience. As short as it was (18 months) it was very intense.

Nice Little People...ha, can I use that one? I like to prick puffy balloons where ever I find them.

Warm regards,
Gerry

Appointed Imperial Grand Wizard by Bruce in 98
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:51:34 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: This is pretty loose, Bruce
Message:
Bruce:

Not just any memory loss, but a specific memory loss in relation to positive and loving experiences of M.

Why do you assume this? Because we don't find these memories convincing in terms of Maharaji's position in our lives? I assure you, if there is memory loss it is largely a result of the cognitive confusion cased by Maharaji's little mind game. I think what is absent is the cognitive connection between our good experiences in meditation, and of other premies, and Maharaji as the cause. There just is no connection. He would not know me from anyone else, unless he were to recognize me from this forum. What is absent here is credibility, not memories.

By the way, Swarup Anand Ji Maharaj's successor was not Maharaji's father (Shri Hans Ji Maharaj) but a fellow by the name of Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj. This fellow's successor, who would be in parallel with Maharaj Ji, was and is Beant Anand Ji Maharaj. I know this is a small and insignificant point to you, but it underscores the fact that BM's title is under a significant cloud, and always has been.

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 07:17:35 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: You're talking rot, Scott
Message:
Scott,

Didn't you or other expremies EVER experience a power emanating from M. unlike anything you'd ever seen or felt before?

Have you believed in him ONLY because of what he SAID?

If that's true, then I could understand you disbelieving in his
authenticity.

I don't believe him because of what he says or doesn't say. That would be far too fragile. I have glimpsed his true form .That makes all the difference.

BTW. I've heard this stuff about Vairag and Beant. The version I've heard was that Vairag inherited the material things like ashrams etc but it was Shri Hans who got the Grace to continue
with spreading K. So Shri hans had to start from scratch materially.

I'd tend to believe this version, primarily because M. has delivered the goods as far as I am concerned, and I have seen a photo of
Swarupand, and I felt connected to this person in a similar way to photos of Shri hans and M. This you no doubt will scoff at, but it is my experience.

Also, my experiences of DLM and now EV, along with the antics of Satpal and Co., indicate to me that there are plenty of premies
who are more interested in the externals than Knowledge, and when M. goes a split will occur in a similar way. I suspect this is the case each time a master departs. M. himself has already predicted this

So how did you get this certainty about Vairag. Was it something you read? You need to watch that. Believing things you read I mean. Imagine reading Satpal's version of history, or bb's, or
Jim's for that matter.

No, M's authenticity is not under any cloud of any significance.

Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 08:33:18 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Family
Message:
Satpal is Prem Rawat's brother, Bruce. He is the son of M's master father. Don't you have any respect for the royal family? Or will mothers and brothers be equally cast aside if they get in the way of the throne?
What causes such things to happen in a family? Who cares about splits, about religions. What about the invidivual? What sort of individual do you follow? Do you follow his example, too?
BTW, I was following him until very recently. When I was really being indoctrinated, I believed my love for my family was an impermanent illusion. I saw the uncaring, almost disdainful attitude some particularly keen premies had to their own children. Where does this attitude come from? Do you think a creed or religion is worth it, if you you end up fighting with your own family?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 18:44:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Bruce learns nothing
Message:
Bruce,

You astound me. Really, few things are more dismally fascinating than watching a cult member try to defend his leader. Any regular adult, understanding the buffoonery and shennanigans of Maharaji and Satpal regarding their conflicting claims to dad's 'franchise' would recognize in a flash that this whole guru dealership tradition is a breeding ground for thieves, deceit, fraud and revisionism. That's the obvious lesson one takes although there are others.

Yet Bruce pretends to learn nothing and pretends that he has no questions regarding Shri Hans' own claim of legitimacy although he's aware that that claim too, just like those of this sons regarding one another, is fraught with controversy.

Here's all it takes to shut down Bruce's inquiring mind:

BTW. I've heard this stuff about Vairag and Beant. The version I've heard was that Vairag inherited the material things like ashrams etc but it was Shri Hans who got the Grace to continue
with spreading K. So Shri hans had to start from scratch materially.

I'd tend to believe this version, primarily because M. has delivered the goods as far as I am concerned, and I have seen a photo of
Swarupand, and I felt connected to this person in a similar way to photos of Shri hans and M.


In normal circumstances, Bruce might pause to consider if he's not making the ame mistake Satpal's current followers make when they accept their leader's blatantlt false history. They, too, he must know, have their 'reasons'. Yet, as he does know, they're simply wrong. Yet here, As he puts it, he 'tends' to believe the version that supports his cult. Of course Shri Hans got the special sauce. Otherwise life would be a little tricky, wouldn't it, Bruce?

I have to laugh when he then tells Scott:

So how did you get this certainty about Vairag. Was it something you read? You need to watch that. Believing things you read I mean. Imagine reading Satpal's version of history, or bb's, or
Jim's for that matter.


What startling hypocrisy! Moments before he's explaining how he simply accepts the version of Shri Hans' history that he was told but then attacks Scott for believing something he read. I don't get it. Isn't he doing the exact same thing? Of course he is.

The best part, though, is the last:

No, M's authenticity is not under any cloud of any significance?

(emphasis mine)

Here, Bruce shows a little too much of his real thought process. Tell me, Bruce, what 'little' clouds hang over Mahraji's authenticity, in your view?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 10:49:58 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim doesn't get it
Message:
Jim,

As usual you have missed the point.

I agree with one part of your post. The bit where you say

I don't get it. I guess you've never got it.

Nice cut and paste job but you omitted a key sentence (how surprising)

I said
I'd tend to believe this version, primarily because M. has delivered the goods as far as I am concerned ...,

My faith in M. is NOT based on what he says, what is written in a book, OR what anyone says. OK?

Its based on what he has shown me and my experiences in his presence.

Is this too hard for you Jim?

The only cloud is the one Scott imagines, which of course is insignificant.

Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:43:14 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: I have had K for 1yr.
Message:
Bruce, I am very new to K and I am on the edge of leaving M. I am leaving for the following reason: TOO MUCH PRESSURE to achieve this 'experience of a power emanating from M' I have not felt what you have felt because I cannot connect. Whenever I practice, and I do practice every night, nothing comes. When I pray, EVERYTHING COMES. I still go to see M, in hopes that something will change in me, but I am getting tired of fighting all my doubts. Very tired.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:32:38 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: I have had K for 1yr.
Message:
Yeah, 'Belle, I know what you mean. I started to feel like a real phony. When Idecided to blow the whole thing off for good, it felt like the proverbial weight of the world lifted off my shoulders.

Fortunately, it didn't leave a whole lot of scars, but only recently I found out there were still some lingering festering wounds. The Forum has helped a lot in dealing with them.

Best to get out now, while you're still intact.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 03:06:45 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: The real form of M
Message:
Bruce,
You get to believe whatever you choose to believe. Did you ever consider that what you 'see' as a divine expression in Maharaji, or 'a glimpse of his real form' is beng experienced inside yourself and projected onto Maharaji. The same divine self is within every person whether they know it or not. If you feel Maharaji emanating power, it is still your own feelings that you are feeling and your mind creating perception. It is sort of like when you are in love with a particular women, she may look radiant and glowing and emanating love to you. The love comes from you and it changes your vision. You may truly believe that Maharaji loves you in particular, and who can argue with it; but simply believing that he does creates a field of experience in you in which you emanate love, and that is what you feel! The trust and belief are the catalysts to the experience that already is within you. You can experience that love and wonder and joy because it is part of you!

All devotees love their teachers. I no longer believe Maharaji is 'the master of our time', but you get to believe anything you want. It becomes an issue when you tell others what they should believe or what is the 'absolute truth'.
Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 23:46:19 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Only a fool
Message:
would say the following:

What I said one time was how hilarious it was that expremies were sending Satpal up for not remembering that his younger brother had always been the master

This astounding memory loss is typical of expremies.


Bruce, who ever said -- for real that is -- that Satpal forgets Prempal? He just doesn't acknowledge him, that's all.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 10:59:36 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Only a fool
Message:
would try to say that Satpal is not an expremie by splitting hairs over whether he has forgotten or is simply not acknowledging M.

The result is the same, ie he does not recognise M as the master.

This is central to being an Ex premie, surely.

Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index