Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 9 | |
From: May 21, 1998 |
To: Jun 1, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 23:38:55 (EST)
From: DOC Email: None To: Jim Subject: response to sidelines comments Message: I will try my best to answer you... 1- First question is difficult to answer other than to give you MY opinion... When I am enveloped in the experience that resounds within me I AM GOD... the 'I' is surrendered to the god-like nature within.... in fact I have heard of many theories that abound that god is everywhere and we all are god! One thing to remember about M or me or you or anyone out there... if what I say helps you get closer to an experience within you, GREAT! If not, then let it pass. It is merely words. Perhaps you take the words too literally and attempt to gain a mental understanding of each word rather than the point being made? Many have thought that what Jesus supposedly said about the father son and holy ghost was blasphemy... I try not to allow myself to get bogged down on this point. 2- I am not aware of these papers you mention... Yet I have seen the result of people around M doing what THEY thought he said to do when he didn't. If I was in charge I would have fired them or sued them. What makes this org. different than any other? MAYBE some of you all thought this was supposed to be a 'spiritual' religious thing? In my exp. it never was, to me! I never wanted a spiritual trip! I drink, smoke, and enjoy all the things I have in life. Thanks to M I allow what is inside of me (K) to guide me. As to being authoritarian... so are most employers. That is the real world. 3- I came across this site while looking up 'Maharaji', to see what was out there! As far as I can see, it appears to be a few premies that for whatever reason, either they expected M to be the concept of a saint, religious leader, or they might not have held the position (mahatma{haha}, director, co-ordinator, head usher, or primary chair washer!!{a joke}) that they either wanted to attain or had and were removed. Again I stress that motivation is what needs to be looked at. Why make M or K such a complicated thing? Free will has always played a part of my experiences. Maybe the problems some of you encountered were a result of mindless following of other premies, and THEIR misunderstandings? And if that were true I'd be pissed off at them and I'd yell at them too (I did and was considered 'NON SPIRITUAL') Too bad, I say. M has been quite helpful to me, his video's, his talks, etc. I have never confused what he says with what other's have interpreted he meant. I also understand that M is growing in his exp. of K too! As are those that practice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 00:27:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: DOC Subject: Doc, here's my diagnosis Message: Doc, If Maharaji can be God, surely I can be a doctor. So now, without any further ado, is the diagnosis you've come here for. It's free but, if I don't say so myself, worth printing and taping to the fridge: WHAT'S WRONG WITH DOC There's a syndrome a team of researchers at the Ex-Premie Reclamation Project, Conservation and Recreation Center have identified. It's so new it doesn't have a name yet but Doc, I tell you, it fits you to a 't'. Maharaji made certain demands on his premies way back when. He enshrined the supposed sanctity and power of these demands under the rubric of agya. An old Hindu trip, really, but he presented it as his own. Maharaji left no room for misunderstanding, nothing could have been simpler, nothing could have been clearer: if he said 'jump'... you know the rest. Maharaji demanded a lot. Basically, he demanded that premies surrender their lives to him without reservation. Our every waking, sleeping, even dying moments were meant to be fixed on him unwaveringly. Satsang, service and meditation were vehicles to do just that. Darshan was the glorious opportunity for us to express our love for him. Airtight? Not good enough. How 'bout encased in forty feet of lead, that's how protected we were demanded to frame our lives, protected from the mind that is. Premies responded to this 'challenge' in varying ways. Some took Maharaji seriously, others might have tried for a while but soon realized that this whole thing was just too much. Yes, they wanted to keep loving Maharaji and being premies and all but no way they were going to give up the world. Problem -- how were they going to withstand Maharaji's sometimes withering satsangs? Answer -- they'd begin to 'dummy down', pretending that they didn't understand exactly what he meant when he screamed abotu surrender, screamed about the mind, ridiculed the fence-sitters and what not. So long as they stayed clear of certain initiators and 'hardcore' premies (in the ashram or not), they could have reasonably nice lives as mediocre premies. Might not win any prizes at the annual Premie Awards night, but hey, at least they got laid. Years later, Maharaji's credibility was in major trouble. His youth, the times, his complete lack of discernable history (within reach, that is) for the skeptical press to scrutinize had all given him a brief period of suspended judgment in some of society. Yes, the press teased him a bit but not that much. In those early years there was always a bit of wonder behind the inevitable smirking cynicism. 'What if...?' people thought, 'What if this guy really IS a guru? What if he really IS...?' But that spell broke soon after Millenium, when the fat little guru married his buxom, blonde devotee (who might as well have been his nursemaid) and alienated his number one devotee, mummy. Maharaji wrestled with various approaches but, eventually, settled on Knowledge Lite. No agya, no demands, no nothing. ALWAYS HAVE FAITH IN GOD. NEVER DELAY IN ATTENDIING SATSANG. LEAVE NO ROOM FOR DOUBT IN YOUR MIND. CONSTANTLY MEDITATE AND REMEMBER THE HOLY NAME. DO NOT PUT OFF UNTIL TOMORROW WHAT YOU CAN DO TODAY. gave way to: KEEP THE TECHNIQUES SECRET. GIVE 'EM A CHANCE. STAY IN TOUCH. Lite, lite, lite. So, here's where the syndrome kicks in. Premies who never really tried to follow the guru in his early, Godzilla phase, now relish the fact that Maharaji himself has every reason to downplay that period. I know they say 'two wrongs don't make a right' but in this case you can see the parties working overtime trying to overcome that aphorism. Maharaji needs guys like you to vouch for him that he never meant nothing to be heavier than, well, than lite, lite, no-fat yogurt. And you guys, who never really trusted him that much in the first place, have new-found love for him the likes of which I'll probably never enjoy. He's absolved you of your weakness as you have him. Is it hard to do? Probably not for someone who's spent decades pretending to not understand what Maharaji was talking about in the first place. It's devolution absolute. That, Doc, is your problem. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 11:56:12 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: DOC Subject: Maharaji's Little Helper Message: You're something, DOC. You saw the need to close the ashrams well ahead of Maharaji having the balls to toss everyone out on the street - and let them foot the bills for having wasted their years doing what he said they should. You served as community co-ordinator somewhere anonymous, yet you alone were able to totally ignore Maharaji's agya that devotees should move into ashrams and devote their lives to serving his whims. You persuaded them to move out. How very responsible of you. You saw what he really meant, DOC. Long before his words began to line up with your perceptions. I do have to give you credit for seeing what complete bullshit his words actually were. Now if you could just see through your own. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 12:37:32 (EST)
From: Paul Email: None To: DOC Subject: response to sidelines comments Message: DOC: you say that M is 'growing in his experience.' And yet there is nothing in what he's said in the last 25 years to indicate that, unless you accept the old worn out platitudes. But you probably don't notice because some time ago you stopped 'seeking,' after all, you had the 'knowledge' the ultimate truth. Unfortunately, you mistake lack of substance for simplicity. Try reading Jack Kornfield' s 'A Path With Heart' (or any similar book) and you will see what a total loss M is both as a teacher as well as one who has any depth of experience. But you probably don't read these kinds of things because you have the perfect knowledge given by the perfect master! Perhaps this is why there is a total absence of dialog within EV and among premies. Doesn't this absence of questioning, debate, etc strike you as strange? Don't you think that type of dialog strengthens people's beliefs and experience, not diminishes them? But you may have lost all vestiges of critical thinking in this area. The new ,improved new-age version of K lets you make it anything you want it to be as long as you're grateful to M for having given it to you. And what's best, is that you can even make your relationship with him anything you want it to be. Hey no demands, no struggle, and you can have god within in only 15 minutes a day (isn't that the recommended time these days). Really, it's quite sad. Paul Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 13:31:37 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Paul Subject: A Path With Heart Message: Hi Paul, This is slightly off topic, but since you mentioned 'A Path With Heart', I wanted to endorse it. I read 'Path With Heart' after starting to participate in this web site (Bobby's recommendation), and enjoyed the book very much. I particularly liked the section on 'Problems with Teachers' - it clarified some of the feelings I'd been having about Maharaji. Katie P.S. For anyone else who is interested - note that the man who wrote 'Path with Heart' - Jack Kornfield - is a meditation teacher (buddhist, not sure what kind) AND a psychologist. Plus he writes very well. I also recommend Stephen Levine's books. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 13:26:11 (EST)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: DOC Subject: Doc & Instructor ? Message: Hi DOC, Are you, or have you been one of m's instructors ? From all you've said, it looks like that's the case, right ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 23:40:51 (EST)
From: *>*..bill burke Email: None To: dick Subject: doc is actually rawat(maharaji Message: this idiot sounds a lot like rawat. his manner and arrogant distain of virtually everyone involved in the ashram and service world is evident and not the norm for actual premies. He can hardly contain his loathing at speaking about the subjects and to us. His comments about being pissed and his total dismissal of any normal human response to him are very rawat. The classic delusion about I AM GOD is pure eastern misperception of life and I welcome any new age holdouts here to look closely at the evident result of that kind of thinking in the clearly insane discourse of the guy who is NOT I am sure, a doc. he said 'if what I say helps you to go inside(and come to the same genious delusion of 'I AM GOD') then great.' who else talks like this? rawat. his total shifting of blame for anything to the premies and 'thier misunderstandings' he said 'I'd be pissed off at them and yell at them too (I did and was considered non spiritual)too bad, I say.' that is classic rawat. the 'too bad' is clearly the arrogance of rawat and his narcisstic delusion at work. he says 'Idrink, Ismoke (cigars)...as to being authoritarian, so are most employers' this is his excuse to himself and to folks like fuzzbee for his meanspirited domination of others. His grandiose self importance and his athiestic logics and his twisted pride and self absorbtion. the 'primary chair washer' is about his chair. it is the way they refer to him because he always takes on titles that are grandiose because of his insane delusion of his so called god-incarnate importance. wether it is 'primary chair' or his false self styled DOCTOR status and just because he read a book he is a 'scientist' but throughout the years he has only allowed himself the highest referenced titles wether they were security nicknames, all the way up to ultimate ruler and today we see him brazenly claim 'I AM GOD' in the post because he thinks he is safe from being recognised because this is the internet forum and he thinks I can't spot his deluded self. once again rawat is posting on the forum. anything you would like to say to him? I say dont change, you crazy totally deluded god. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 00:31:16 (EST)
From: *>*..bill burke Email: None To: dick Subject: the ONLY perfect premie! doc! Message: he said 'I have seen the result of people around m doing what THEY thought he said to do when he didn't' for many years I have heard him blabber on about people doing things and he saying to them 'what are you doing?' and they say 'you told us to do that' and he denys it. The last time I heard that, he was in uraguay and he was complaining about his wife doing exactly that and how he claimed 'I did not say that'. turns out that was just a day or two before she had her anyerism. that the fake doctor would even think to comment about that subject is another indicator. he used to do this all the time at events during the design of the stage phase. And I bet JM can recall hearing that at instructor events as rawat criticises them as he was so fond of doing.] he said 'Ihave never confused what he said with what others have interpreted he meant' this guy cannot even own up to the slightest misperception and misunderstanding. HE was immune to the world of premie confusion and the premie confusion was thier own makeing and THEY (PAM) are the ones to blame if there is any faults to be found. hello rawat. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 13:06:28 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: *>*..bill burke Subject: enjoying m's shouts Message: >And I bet JM can recall hearing that at >instructor events as rawat criticises them as he was so fond of >doing.] Exactly! I would even say that there is some kind of strange phenomenon I've never thought too much about: you (I mean I, and obviously others) end up enjoying M being pissed off, he used to look so 'powerful' in these moments, like when God is mad at you and you are blissed out. I even had 'darshan dreams' where he was shouting at me, and I was completely blissed out at his feet ..... really powerful experiences! can you imagine this ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 00:59:23 (EST)
From: *>*..bb Email: None To: dick Subject: AGAIN with the evidence Message: He says 'MAYBE some of you thought this was supposed to be a spiritual religious thing? In MY experience it never was, to me! I never wanted a spiritual trip! I drink, I smoke...' HERE we go again! the only premie who thought this was the fraud guru at the top! HE knew it wasn't a spiritual trip! His mom was appalled by his deciet. HE just fucked with our lives while HE just was so clear that this was no spiritual religious thing. drinking, smokeing, cheating on the wife, on the brothers wife, drugs, hitting people, yelling his goddamn fool head off, the whole non spiritual thing. while here he is again with the rawat distain saying 'MAYBE some of you thought this was a spiritual religious thing.' And then again to be3 blameless, he says 'Maybe some of the problems some of you encountered were because of the mindless following of other premies and THIER misunderstandings.' AGAIN with the total denial of his actions and the truth. AGAIN with the blame of others and he proclaiming his own perfect flawless clarity. AGAIN with the total distain for those that actually listened to him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 11:39:42 (EST)
From: DOC Email: None To: ALL Subject: Me ... M? Message: Well thanks for the compliment... but no, I am not M. And yet, yes I am, a part of all of us is. You can ignore it, deny it, hate it, or recognise it, praise it, and adore it.... doesn't matter to me I have to do what is best for me. We all come into this world alone and will leave alone... so what I experience here while alive is for me, no group, philosophy, ideology, or religion will accompany me on my path. Inside each of us is the true companion, friend, & lover. Embrace it, and enjoy it. It won't bite, I assure you. Once again, what difference is it if M lives this way or that way, what silly concept/notion do you have of what M must be or do? Ultimately who do each of us have to answer to... relax, we are not the judge or jury, even though some here would rather sit on the sidelines and just critisize. Fine ... enjoy and be happy will you. DOC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 13:52:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: DOC Subject: Bill, will you knock that out? Message: Sorry Doc, Bill gets a little excited. Don't worry, you're not the first. By the way, what you just said is drivel. Empty, meaningless drivel. I can see why Bill thought you might be Maharaji. Okay, you can go now. Bill, What's with you man? Can't you see that they ALL talk like this? It's a cult, for God's sake! Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 23:59:05 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Jim Subject: Maharaj Ji? Message: At first i thought it was speculation based on the data but he does talk like that just like that. And I called him a reptile. Pardon me but I am a little taken aback. But, you know, I don't take back a word of it. But this is deep. This is real deep. Yet I expect to be treated with respect even by god or greater than god. I bow only before supreme kindness and openness. I can't be reasonable about this. I stick by my words. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 01:19:10 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: charles Subject: Maharaj Ji? Message: Charles - Just to be fair, I should tell you that bill (*>*) has thought that several other premies posted on the forum were Maharaji posting under a pseudonym. I am quite fond of bill and his posts are great, but I personally do not think that any of these people have been Maharaji. I don't think DOC is Maharaji - he is just a guy (which I'm sure he would be the first to admit.) So I hope you are not TOO taken aback. Respectfully yours, Katie P.S. Regarding reptiles - I really like reptiles and wouldn't consider being called one that much of an insult. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 03:16:27 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Katie,Brian Subject: Maharaj Ji?Forum elves Message: Can't the Forum elves see the origin of a post, like when I get e-mail? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 22:15:46 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: What a Premie really is Message: If Maharaji was indeed God, I would drive to His divine residence right now, in Reigate, Surrey, England (despite my being ill at present) and even though He's not at home, I would thankfully do full pranam in the mud outside of His house and let the security premies drag me away and treat me like I was a complete bongo. He'd have my full measure again if I truly knew He was the Lord. There are no half measures here. Either He is or he isn't. That is the question you should ask. The answer you must know. Dear Premies; don't critisise the ex-premies. If you don't understand us then it could be because you've never known what really being a Premie meant - a devotee of the living Lord. Nothing less. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 23:31:26 (EST)
From: DOC Email: None To: Sir David Subject: What a Premie really is Message: Let me just ask you 1 question..... WHY, why is it so important to you to have M be Lord? The messege as I hear it is for me, ME, to experience within myself what is. If I relax enough and allow what is to flourish, then my life is enhanced. Why attach the religious connotations? And if I find within myself a satisfying exp. then it is up to me to continue to enjoy it. Yes, a gratitude does occur, naturally. But stemming from my internal experience. Would a verification of M being Lord change the fact that my responsibility is to exp. and benefit for myself my own life? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 23:38:49 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: DOC Subject: What a Premie really is Message: I know this decision or choice to bring it all back to me and to what I experience and what I enjoy and leave everyone else to themselves, thankyou, sounds pretty neat and tidy and unassailable but it also has the ring of arrogance and insularity and even a little fear. Once again, 'Avoiding relationship?' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 00:26:36 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: DOC Subject: What about the devotion? Message: In the Lord of the Universe video, a premie is talking about his experience with M and he says that in the beginning, it was about his own experience and Knowledge, like you describe in your post above. Then, he says after you receive K, the focus shifts and you are asked to devote yourself to M. He says that it didn't make sense, so he left M. Memphis Belle who posts here has said the same thing about the shift in focus after you receive K and so has M himself in a couple of videos that I have recently watched. If the whole point of M's mission is really about devotion to the master, why do you and others insist that it is about the internal experience that you are having? If you have been lurking and reading here, how come you are not aware of what 'The Guru Papers' is? People discuss it often on the forum. It is a book. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 01:34:15 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Doc Subject: What about the devotion? Message: Doc, There's something in what you're saying that really doesn't ring true. Maharaji has and still does place great significance to the need of devotion as a part of the whole process . The way many of the videos are edited and enhanced directly relate to this. It's just not true that premies are being influenced to discover and enjoy the truth (experience, whatever) within. And it's not just about feeling some gratitude. There's more to it. Maharaji encourages premies to regard him as a MASTER. And in such a way , that if one removes the outer packaging one is meant to regard M as a superman, a sat-guru, lord of the universe, the risen Christ, or whatever other image fits the individual imagination. Yes, there are times when Maharaji seems humble and very human, (I could almost hug him then) but overall the impression is projected of HIMSELF being in a place high, high above where we mere mortals lurk. It's true! Many premies(those who are most devoted to him) are in awe of him. 'What is the average darshan experience for most premies I wonder?'. Doc, devotion to maharaji is strongly a part of the 'deal'. I mean , not to see this is quite astounding! And it's not just devotion, but images about being able to trust Maharaji, with everything he says and does. In other words, premies should suspend all critical thinking and totally trust Maharaji......and that amounts to believing that Maharaji is infallible....perfect. Maharaji knows the perfection. So do you . So do I . But all three of us are imperfect in our totality. Maharaji hes made mistakes and still does. But he presents himself as if he is perfect in all things. It's dishonest. I have so often loved Maharaji more than words can express. I have felt So much natural gratitude towards him. But I feel that despite all this and more Maharaji has not played the game really cleanly. I suspect that he is too attached to an image of himself that's been projected onto him since his infancy. I agree Doc, that what it should all be about is being ones self. That knowledge is the thing! Self is the thing! And all other things flow out of That! But look again ! That is NOT what is happening. Warm Regards, Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 03:13:29 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Keith? Is that really you? Message: Is someone posting under Keith's name here? What's going on? No, really Keith, I know that's you. Everything but the ellipses (i.e., ..........). Keith, you're sounding pretty clear these days. Thanks. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 20:18:03 (EST)
From: This may help Email: None To: Keith Subject: You Keith (1) Message: More Exerpts from Hans Yog Prakash (The writings of Maharaji’s father) Page 1 How can I describe the Perfect Master? How can one as ignorant as I possibly understand Him who is beyond all illusion? How can my my dull wits explain that which is beyond understanding? about which even the scriptures can only say “It’s not this, it’s not that” This is beyond my comprehension. Therefore I bow before it from before it from afar. Oh my Guru Maharaj Ji, please give me at least the strength I need to understand You. I had hoped to praise You; I wished to be able to worship You by the power of illusion, but illusion was incapable of serving you, so what could I do? I have lost my faith in illusion, so, my Guru Maharaj Ji, You just be as You are. People cannot even imagine the Supreme Soul, so they have to make do with statues. Each person approaches God according to his personal taste. In the same way, I will utiIize this creation to sing the Glory of my Satguru. O my Satguru, all praise to You, all glory to You! O Lord of the Universe, source of all creation, supreme personality bestowerer of salvation, friend of the humble and the poor, only by Your blessing can this powerful illusion be dispelled, as the sun's rays dispel darkness. The sun removes darkness, but at night the darkness comes again. Our Guru Maharaj Ji is not like that. He destroys for ever the cycle of births and deaths, and uproots the darkness of ignorance for ever and ever. A piece of gold can never be an iron piece. In the same way a true devotee can never become a victim of doubt. When any river merges in the river Ganges, it takes the name Ganges. It becomes the Ganges and it can never be separated from it again. The same with a disciple. He becomes one with his Master. We cannot say the Satguru is like the sky, for He is infinitely more subtle. In the same way, we cannot compare Him with the ocean, for the ocean is salty. We cannot compare Him with the mountains, for the mountain s are made of rock, while Satguru is soft with mercy for His devotees. Nor can we compare Him with the earth, for one day the earth will be destroyed, but Satguru’s patience lasts for ever. The sun too has its its limits, but Satguru is limitless. The Light of Satguru's Knowledge is much more powerful than sunlight. Page 2 Nor can I compare Guru Maharaj Ji with Atlas, for Atlas carries the burden of the world on his shoulders, while Guru Maharaj Ji is burdenless. What is there to compare to Him? Everything in this world is mortal. Guru Maharaj Ji is beyond the limits of creation, and it is impossible to describe Him. The only way to describe the glory of Satguru is to say the glory o£ Satguru can never be described. Only a person with internal experience can understand this problem. My Guru is the incarnate Lord of this time. I bow before my Guru, who i.s greater than Christ or Buddha, for each of them was the servant of his Satguru. 'The Lords of earth, sea and sky also bow before Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji, the Giver of Knowledge, is the greatest of all. Parents give birth to the body, but when Satguru gives new birth into the Spiritual kingdom, that birth is divine, deathless and eternal. Knowledge is always new, and alive. The Perfect Master is He who fills the ears of His eager disciples with Truth and Knowledge. He allows him to enjoy the supreme eternal joy, He gives him Knowledge of salvation. He alone is the real mother and father. We have two fathers. One gives us physical birth, and the other gives us Knowledge of the Truth. That Father who `gives us Knowledge is far superior, for only God lasts for ever. All the wealth of this world is nothing compared to the gift of Satguru's Word. How can we repay Him? He who gives us the ]amp of true Knowledge is Satguru, He is God incarnate. If someone took Him to be an ordinary human being, his ignorance would make his whole life fruitless. If Lord Shiva (the Destroyer) becomes angry with you, Guru can save you. But there is no one who can help you, if Guru be comes angry. One should never go against his Guru, for Guru is both father and mother. The saints say one should always sit below one's Guru. One should wake before one's Guru, and retire after Him. This is most important for a devotee. Page 3 One should not address Guru Maharaj Ji while lying down,eating, standing far away, or facing away from Him. One should never interrupt His conversation. When receiving the Guru's command, one should always stand humbly before Him, to show Him respect. One should never call the Guru by His name to His face. ' Scriptures are many, and doubts are many. The Knowledge of the Self is very subtle, and without the help of Satguru, no one can realize it. He who wishes to know his own Self should attain this Knowledge. He should prostrate himself at the feet of the wise, render them all forms of service, and question them with a guileless heart again and again. Those wise Seers of Truth will unfold that Knowledge. In the Scriptures of ancient times it is written that this Knowledge should not be given to one of unsteady mind, but only to a son or a disciple. Only one with a peaceful mind should receive this Knowledge. He whose devotion for the Lord is only equalled by devotion to his Satguru can understand the real meaning of Truth.When Knowledge is given to someone like this, it bears fruit. Bow before the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji a million times, prostrate before Him. Guru Maharaj Ji turns His devotees into His own image. Guru Maharaj Ji by His mercy has shown us things our eyes could not see. His glory is endless. He helps us endlessly, He opens our eyes to infinity. When Guru and disciples meet, they mix together like rainfall and river. Hold Guru Maharaj Ji's Feet upon your head, obey Him at all times He who is a true servant of his Guru has no fear in all the three worlds. Suppose my Guru and God are both standing before me. Who should I bow to first? I am overwhelmed by my Guru's Grace, for it was He who showed me God, and allowed me to recognize Him. We can call Guru Maharaj Ji even when He is very far away from us. The Word will reach Him, it is always on the move. Even if I change the whole world to paper, make pens from all the trees, and use the seven oceans as my ink, I can still never write the whole glory of Satguru. (contin.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 20:20:12 (EST)
From: This may help Email: None To: Keith Subject: You Keith (2) Message: (even more quotes from Hans Yog Prakash) Page 4 First the disciple offers his head and heart to Satguru. And then The Guru gives him the Holy Name as a reward. Guru is a washerman, and His disciple is like a soiled cloth. When the cloth is washed on the stone of Holy Name, it radiates immense light. Guru is a potter, and His disciple is the pot He is making. This is how He makes the pot perfect. With one hand, He softly lifts the clay from inside while He firmly slaps it into shape with the other. Satguru has built His castle, and decorated it with love. He makes a window of the Holy Word, so that we may also enjoy the presence of the Lord. Guru and Lord are one; all else is duality.when someone worships the Guru, and dissolves himself in love and service, he can find the Lord. When you have Knowledge, you have the joy of true love, kindness, devotion and faith. When you serve the Lotus Feet of Satguru, you find shelter at His Lotus Feet. He who thinks Guru Maharaj; Ji is a human being is blind. He will remain very unhappy in this world, and death will not relieve him of his sufferings. Guru is greater than God, it's common sense. People who think about God stay in this world. But those who know Satguru pass beyond suffering, and attain perfect freedom. If you want to know the secret of what I am saying, offer your head to Satguru. Many proud and arrogant people went down the drain on account of pride. There is no giver like Guru Maharaj Ji, and there is no beggar like His disciple. Guru Maharaj Ji gives His disciple the wealth of heaven and Earth. We should meditate upon the form of Guru. We should worship His holy Feet. His Word is the true name of God. The real Truth is to have a pure and honest feeling for Guru Maharaj Ji. If God is angry with you, you can go to the Guru, but if the Guru is displeased with you, you have no place to go. If you come and go as Guru Maharaj Ji chooses, you become a saint, and are free from the round of sufferings. When you look for reality in the wrong places, you can never... Page 5 ...find it. But when you seek out the company of Satguru, you will find the Truth. When you take Guru Maharaj Ji's shelter, He shows you the Truth. This path was here before time began, but Guru Maharaj Ji showed it to you in a moment. This body is like poison ivy, but Guru Maharaj Ji restores the soul. You should know that to exchange your head for Satguru is the best possible bargain, and very cheap at the price. When Satguru is pleased with me, and speaks even one word, a cloud of love showers upon me, and I am soaked through and through. Satguru is a perfect Knight. He cuts you from top to bottom with firm blows. No one can see your wounds from the outside, but inside you, your ego is smashed. If I shoot someone he dies, but if Satguru hits him with the arrow of Holy Word he becomes immortal. The dumb suddenly become eloquent, the deaf receive ears, and the lame find legs when Satguru shoots them with his arrow. Guru tells us to go to a wise man, and the wise men tell us to worship Guru. This play allows me to realize the secret o£ the Scriptures, which otherwise was beyond me. There may be millions of moons, there may even be thousands of millions of suns, but only by the mercy of Satguru can one see the Light, and clear away the darkness of ignorance. The Word of the Satguru is a ship. Rare are those who understand this mystery. The ocean and the drop become one. How can I tell the difference between them? You may perform many spiritual practices and make great sacrifices, you may study many books, but without Satguru, whatever you do, you will never arrive at the Truth. Without the Knowledge of Satguru, even God, Saints and human beings will not be saved. Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva (the Creator, Preserver and Destroyer of Universes) also need the mercy of Satguru. Why speak of ordinary beings? Satguru is like sandalwood, and His perfume is love of the lord. He distributes it day and night to those who come near Him. The more time we spend in holy company, the deeper our devotion will become. Every day our devotion grows in proportion. It cannot be disturbed. Guru gives us Self Knowledge. You should serve Him with... Page 6 . ...love and devotion, offer Him food and clothes, worship Him, and give Him all respect, honour and attention. Gurus who are greedy, proud, and have many monasteries are wicked They are all looking towards the throne, and courting the respect of the people There is neither truth nor reality in them. By their fruits you shall know them. The signs of the Perfect Master are self control, love, discrimination, detachment and lack of partiality. He is without stubbornness.He is peaceful, far from anger, and treats all men equally. At all times He is absorbed in the Holy Word. He is love and affection personified. Such a Guru as this is the Supreme place of pilgrimage. Once you take a dip in His Knowledge, all your duties are fulfilled. He is the philosopher's stone. He fulfils all our wishes and desires by granting us the gift of devotion. Oh my Guru Maharaj; Ji, You are all powerful, and the only guide on the right path. You saved me from unreality and made me pure and high, by taking me away from my lower nature. I was walking a long path. My Satguru came and led me by the arm I was tired and sweating. He cooled me, sheltering me under His own shadow. When someone takes the shelter of Satguru, he finds satisfaction and learns how to behave with propriety. When he enters the storehouse of Knowledge, he finds penances and praises, confessions and chants, prayer, meditation and devotion all lying there. After I had wandered for a long time in ignorance, my luck changed, and I suddenly found Satguru. That was the moment when all my fears and ignorance flew away. I was going to follow my mind's guidance into the ditch, but Guru Maharaj; Ji caught my hand. He showed me the abode of the Lord, and even better, He took me with Him. Rare are those who can understand the glory of Satgurudev. He dispels all ignorance and removes the results of our actions. When someone is weary of the round of suffering, he can find rest at the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji. When he remembers the Holy Name, even his unwanted wants are fulfilled. Worship Guru Maharaj Ji and pray to Him again and again. He has taken us across the ocean o£ this world in the boat of His Holy Name. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 20:24:04 (EST)
From: This may help Email: None To: Keith Subject: You Keith (3) Message: (and more...) Page 7. A Guru should be far from selfishness. He should be engrossed in spiritual thoughts and deeds, busy helping others all the time. He should live in a garden, but should not take one flower or leaf. He should give away the love of the Lord to all, without thought of caste, color or creed. From Satguru you get love, devotion and meditation. From Knowledge you get purity, austerity, penance and discipline. Guru brings those who have lost the path back to their true devotion. He does not abandon them, but gives devotion for the Lord. No one should become entangled with this world of ignorance. On the other hand, no one can cross this ocean of ignorance without the help of Satguru. I bow before the Lotus Feet of my Guru Maharaj Ji who is the ocean of mercy and the Lord personified in human form. His words are like the shining rays of the sun that banish the clouds of dark ignorance. I bow before the dust of the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji. His Feet are so beautiful, full of divine perfume and nectar. It is so easy to become attached to them. The dust of His Feet is like a soothing balm which takes away all the diseases of this world of illusion. Guru Maharaj Ji is Lord Shiva personified, the pure and auspicious giver of pure and auspicious Joy.He wipes the dirt and dust from the mirror of the human mind. The nails on the toes of the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji seen in meditation are like shining jewels.He who remembers them gets the most pure spiritual insight. Their light kills the darkness of worldly attachment. The luckiest man is he in whose heart this light is shining. This light will open the pure spiritual eye of the soul, and all impurities and pain will vanish. Then one can see the shining jewel of Lord Rama's divine character and play. All the hidden mines of spiritual wealth will be discovered. The dust of Shri Guru Maharaj Ji's Lotus Feet is a soft and beautiful balm which dispels all the defects of our eyesight. Without Guru no one will he able to cross the ocean of this world, even those who are equal in power to Lord Shiva and Brahma. Page 8 Without Guru Maharaj Ji, no one can receive Knowledge. You cannot have Knowledge without detachment. The scriptures all sing that without devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji,no one can enjoy peace and bliss. Will anyone ever rest without contentment and satisfaction? Without water a boat cannot move,however many times you try to make it. Without faith we cannot have devotion, and without devotion the Lord will not melt. Without the grace and mercy of the Lord, even in a dream, we cannot have peace. The shining Self within us lies, But we can never leave that night Of ignorance, and see the Light Until our True Lord gives us eyes. Remember at all times to carry the Lotus Feet of the Lord in your heart. Realize that God and Guru are one and the same! do not doubt this fact. God is pleased if Guru is pleased, and if Guru is unhappy, God will be also. I am simply telling you. Listen with an open heart, for just by speaking the glory of the Lord and hearing His praise, one can cross the ocean of this world. Once upon a time Lord Indra, the God of the gods, was sitting on his throne in his court. The whole house of heaven was there, together with King Kubera, Lord of wealth. Then Brihaspati, the Guru of the gods, came in, but Lord Indra did not rise to bow before Him as He entered. Brihaspati, when He saw the pride of Lord Indra, returned t.o His home with all the other guests. Then Indra repented, and asked himself,”Why did I behave so stupidly?' And he went to the ashram o f Guru Brihaspati. But on account of this incident, Indra could not receive the darshan of the Perfect Master. Prahlad bowed his head before the Lotus Feet of the Lord and said, 'Glory, glory, glory to the Universal Guru. You have saved my life. You are the original, complete One, beyond any comparison. You are the shelter of all helpless people, O Lord; You are the Supreme Being, the whole Complete One. You have taken this form for the sake of Your devotee. Wherever a devotee of Yours gets into difficulty, You are there to help him. My mind overflows with Your praises.' Then Lord Narsingha said, 'Oh my devotee, listen to Me. Never will I find a devotee like you, who has seen Me in My manifest and unmanifest form. Wherever my devotees suffer, there I manifest Myself£ to help and save them. Listen to my promise, Prahlad, I will never leave you.When I remember my devotees, I feel the same feeling that a cow feels as she licks her calf. Whosoever goes to meet a Guru, a doctor, an astrologer, his friends, the gods, or a King without any gift or offering will never be successful in his endeavour. Page 9 You should understand that Guru is superior to God, for God places us in this hell, but Guru makes fear of this hell vanish. Guru is the Creator, Guru is the Preserver, and Guru is the destroyer of this universe. Shri Guru Maharaj Ji is the Supreme God who removes the suffering of the humble and the poor.He who comes to the shelter of Guru Maharaj Ji is freed from the round of sufferings. If even the most sinful of men comes to the Perfect Master, no pain nor suffering will reach him. He who believes in the Word of the True Master can never go to hell. ‘Gu’ means darkness. 'Ru' means light. Thus 'Guru' means He who dispels the darkness of our ignorance and reveals the inner light of God. Without the Guru, rites and rituals can never help us. Without the Guru we can never understand Divine Knowledge. He who has all the signs of a true Guru, His knowledge will bring fruit. If the Guru is capable, that is, if He fulfils the obligation of his title, make Him your Lord. Those wise people who understand this secret will perform perfect actions while remembering the name of God, knowing the end may come at any moment He who does not know the meaning of serving the Guru, who does not wash and worship His Holy Lotus Feet, will be unsuccessful in all his spiritual endeavours. Yoga, charity, chanting and bathing in the holy rivers are all useless without service to the Perfect Master. Without service to Guru Maharaj Ji, the mind is dark, and the light of Knowledge can never shine there. He alone who is free from attraction and repulsion can save the devotees. My Satguru is a fearless warrior. He strikes with the Word of God, and by throwing the bomb of love he destroys the castle of ignorance. When the Word of the Perfect Master takes effect, the king loses his pomp and power. He forgets wife, son, riches and all show of royalty, and enters the life divine. When the Word of the Perfect Master touches you, all worldly enjoyments become tasteless. All identification with finite things vanishes, and you become a true devotee, attached to the Lotus Feet of the Perfect Master. If God is angry you have nothing to fear, for Guru will save you. So respect your Satguru wholeheartedly, and He will help you in every way. Page 10 God’s mercy may come or go, it makes little difference, but without the Grace of Satguru, we are completely lost. I can give` up the Lord, but never can l forget my Guru. I cannot see how God is equal to Guru, for the Lord gave us birth in this world, but Guru released us from the bondage of life and death. God gave us five senses. Like five thieves, they are always eager to rob us. But it was Guru who saved us from being their helpless victims, by controlling our senses. God cast a net of relatives over us, but Guru quickly cut the shackles of our attachments, and set us free. God gave us disease and desire, but Guru purified us, and released us from every kind of bondage. God deluded us with the chains of cause and effect, but Guru showed us the reality of the eternal Self, and we were freed. God hid Himself from us, but Guru revealed His Light, and enabled us to recognize God. God gave us the very ideas of captivity and freedom, but Guru dispelled all these delusions, and showed us the Truth. I am ready to sacrifice my body, mind and soul to my Guru. I will never leave my Guru, even if I have to leave God. How can I ever praise Him enough? We can never give Him anything in return for what He has given us. I am ashamed, because I will never be able to give my Guru anything, but He showed me the Lord, I saw Him for myself and was f reed from countless bondages. He gave me His shelter, by His holy glance alone He made me love Him. His mercy is so great that my tongue cannot sing His Glory. I am silent. How can I praise Him enough? All I can do is to rest my head on His Lotus Feet again and again. The glory of Guru is great. I will sacrifice anything for Him. Guru is the only giver. He bestows the gift of salvation. He frees us from wrong actions and gives us Knowledge of God. He gives us strong devotion, and makes us realize who are our real friends and foes. Then He takes us to His own abode. Guru and God are not separate.He who understands this, surely receives the real gift which makes all sufferings vanish. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 20:47:27 (EST)
From: GeRrY Email: None To: Jim Subject: cUt It oUT... Message: Yer MaKInG mE DiZzY Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 21:39:52 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: GeRrY Subject: Uh oh! Message: Gerry's starting to go 'caps'. You know what that means! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 13:45:17 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: GeRrY Subject: cUt It oUT... Message: It's a lot to read! It is good to show it to all so that those who doubt that this is the way M was presented to us by his Mahatmas can see for themselves. I wonder if Maharaji also had a family break with his father, his Guru Maharaj Ji, because he certainly does not fit his father's definition of Guru. carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 15:32:43 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Keith Subject: What about the devotion? Message: Dear Keith, I agree with you that it is K and the magic that each one of us is capable of that is the key. When I was catching up from my weekend away from the computer, I saw a post by David of Cheddar and I do believe he has mentioned this before but it kind of slipped through my mind but this time it got caught. He says by hearing BM's words it is easy to tell he doesn't meditate. He doesn't speak of his experience. I wonder how you feel at the thought that BM doesn't even practice K? I don't KNOW about the actual facts but found David's post thought provoking. If he didn't practice I think it would be just another indication that he is in this guru thing for the money. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 21:24:25 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Robyn Subject: What about the devotion? Message: Robyn, The topic of 'practice' is I feel complex. Why? Because Maharaji is showing a way to practice K to the masses. My understanding is that one could possibly be in that state of consciousness (grace) without formally practicing K , but for most people this is not (or hardly) possible. I don't doubt that M is very merged with the grace a lot of the time. I personally perceive that , when he talks , etc. But that does not ammount to an integrated total infallability. It's a bit like saying that I perceive GOD as GOD but also as an imperfect erring 'creature'. Could this be the meaning of the 'fall'. The fall from grace into a state of having to stumble and mumble......and then try and redeem the 'fall and it's effects' by way of a process of evolution and slow awakening. Sorry, I'm getting diverted here. I hope I've made some sense . Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 22:36:17 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Keith's an easy customer Message: I don't doubt that M is very merged with the grace a lot of the time. I personally perceive that , when he talks , etc. Keith, that 'personal perception' device you have has gone haywire. Really, you are SO NAIVE. Sorry for shouting but really, you deserve it. You yourself have agreed that there is so much about Maharaji that doesn't add up anywhere near the way he'd have you think. By now, you had so many people explain to you in so many ways reasons for re-evaluating the premie 'darhsn' experience. And here you claim you don't even have any doubt ..... I'm sorry I called you naive. I meant stupid. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 07:28:43 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Keith's an easy customer Message: By now, you had so many people explain to you in so many ways reasons for re-evaluating the premie 'darhsn' experience. And here you claim you don't even have any doubt ..... Dear Jim the mistake i think you might be making is that people didn't go into knowledge because of reason and reason alone won't help them get out. I don't know what it was that clicked for me, but I know that when I found this Forum I had already been through a process of disillusionment, after only 1 year with knowledge, when I practiced as tho my life depended on it, in fact I rented a big share house and had the intention of telling everyone who moved in about knowledge, hoping thus to create a premie household. I didn't succeed, but I did help one guy with a drug problem! Anyway as I said things began to appear on my horizon that were not right. Finding the Forum may have been a subconscious choice to find more information, as I knew M had asked premies not to share about knowledge for newcomers on the internet. (but didn't know he had asked them to not even have a site). When I got here, I have found the support to keep me strong. I don't need any more suffering in my life or disruptions to 'getting on with it'. eg emotional storms, depression etc. The strength I found here has given me the faith in my own judgement and the people here have stimulated me and accepted me in just the way I needed to come out of the 'cloud'. I don't know what helps people but I suppose it's like why you went into it - what was the trigger that helped you make up your mind and accept him as your Lord? I think it's the same process in the undoing, and just as gentle and perhaps subtle. Anyway, that's speculation but I know premies don't live by or particularly trust their mind (I don't mean you, Keith I just mean in general). So you can't really abuse someone for not listening to reason because that's not how they are functioning at the time. It's like expecting a child to be able to do the banking. It's just a different perspective that people have. My opinion - I know I can't persuade you to agree with me! but there it is. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:30:37 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: Hi Judex Message: Hi Judex, Is that really your name? It sounds familiar. I wonder if we've ever met. Are you a multinational company by chance? No, all kidding aside, to use your analogy of letting a child do the banking, Keith has already walked down to the bank and opened up his very own savings account. He's got a passbook and everything. He's already begun thinking and thinking as well as he possibly can -- right Keith? -- about these matters. That's why I find it amazing that, in spite of all, he could say something like that. (On the other hand, it's not really so surprising, he's prone to grand, unqualified albeit contradictory statements. And that's WITH his account!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 00:00:45 (EST)
From: Mark Email: None To: Keith Subject: What about the devotion? Message: Keith you or I also integrate into the big power when we communicate from the truth its a standard human capability too bad you missed the old days we all did it/ some better than M/Satpal was Great at it! If you will combine Michael Jackson Bill Clinton, and the Devotional Rock referred to above I think you'll get the picture of the dynamics at work REMEMBER the Jackson 5 when they started? Meet the RAWAT 5 a good vibe carrying group, centered around a gifted charismatic personality. Boy could he dance. Obviously, he did his best work on stage. Same with Maharaji. He was just singing his dad's songs ( that dad ripped off from someone else and called his own) Nobody denies that M is a great stage personality. However, he's not the same guy offstage. A bit isolated and freaky, just like MJ.A GOD Rock star.Gotten worse with age. CLINTON has taught us the value of sacrificing all to the god of selfpreservation. M is his disciple. ASK YOURSELF-WHAT IS his CORE MESSAGE? Have this knowledge? or I am your Master? THIS IS THE CORE OF IT ALL! BELIEVE ME ! If it was Have this Knowledge, it's my guess that with M's charisma , and the truly exceptional people attacted to Him, He could have brought this message like, Yogananda did in the 20's , to millions of people in the West.But it really wasn't. However, the real one was- I'm your master. And that's the message that has not changed from DAY 1.Not the one about the knowledge. But I'm your boss. He may not say he's God , but he is the god of his followers. So what's the difference. I was at a fundraiser recently and God or serving God was not mentioned ONCE! it was all how GM loves us all so , all he does is think about us, how can we love GM, be close to GM, help others get close to GM. You get the picture. And I assure you the Israeli premie giving the pitch got his script from the commander(.Iwas going to ask where is god in all this but I didn't want to get stoned to death.) And this guy Rawat knows how to change direction better than Slick Willie Ergo, the decision to go for the money Mishler (Donner, Schwartz and others) chronicle.Maintain a long term playboy life with Gopi Bunnies( threatening to 'kill people' if they spilled the beans) rather than admit a troubled homelife and a lengthy bout with alchoholism. Create 'knowledge Lite(thanks Jim)' when the other didn't work. Preach the Gospel of the Ostritch Cult when public critcism finally surfaces on the net Expand into Hindu Cultures when Propagation fails in the US. Why? Because if he can stay THE MASTER he'll always have a gig! And that's what makes this guy tick. I'm not saying he's evil, MAYBE HE'S SINCERELY DELUDED but self Preservation has and will always remain his core agenda. Now add the Magic stone everyone prays to and gets high off. It's just one of those intention phenomenon that really work. So let anything be your god, and it will appear to- if you're sincere enough Plus M's a great God impersonator- been doing it since he was 1 years old.And it's a long practiced gig in India. Sort of like our tent evangelists. So take the universal desire to merge: find a stone a charismatic personality that likes playing the stone add a touch of Clinton stay in office at all costs mix with some WELL KNOWN MEDITATION TECHNIQUES bake in BHAKTI serve to the sincere seeker for freedom VIOLA! Students for life with little chance of escape Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 15:34:01 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Keith Subject: Keith Message: Dear Keith, Thanks for your post. My understanding is that one could possibly be in that state of consciousness (grace) without formally practicing K , but for most people this is not (or hardly) possible. This made me think, I feel like most of the time, being a single mom and more recently working 2 jobs and just in general being easily side tracked I feel like I am one of the lucky ones. Maybe many of us have similar experiences but don't see it the same. Things come to me when I need them, money, friends, support, love, growth, spiritual messages. If there ever was a person who did not deserve/work hard for the gifts received that would be me and yet I continue to be blessed and receive what I need even when it all seems imposible! I don't see these experiences as having anything to do with meditation in particular, maybe with the knowing of my searching, however scattered and like my friends, the big guy (not BM) finds that endearing in me, I don't know but I am thankful. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 22:56:39 (EST)
From: Mark Email: None To: Robyn Subject: What about the devotion? Message: here's one for you proudly told by Dr John at the time of Marolyn's anueurism ( sp ?) M was pacing around the hospital for hours very (understandably) upset Dr. John and Dr. Ed noticing he was a 'bit in his head' suggested ( deferentially, of course ) that he should sit down and meditate and chill eg, practice what he preaches. M angrily retorted 'meditation never leaves me- it follows me around.' and blew them off. Idiots that they are, invested in their cult egos well beyond their eyeballs, they saw it as a pronouncement of divinity- rather than the Emperor with no Clothes. I think he's more in the do what I say not what I do school, but won't admit it. THERE are so many skeletons in his closet that he can't address criticism or else the deck of cards will fall Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 11:48:44 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: DOC Subject: Be honest.... Message: Dear DOC, Sorry to take so long to reply to your posts but, like so many others, my precious internet connection depends on my job and is not constantly available. However, I am here now and somewhat intrigued by your posts. I feel that I know you, or at least the type. Do you have a white suit? Or is that considered slightly passe these days. Oh well, like you said 'Times change'. Come to think of it, that's a pretty common theme for you isn't it? Times change and people get left behind. Those of us with 70's concepts cannot possibly grasp or understand the nature of 90's knowledge. It's a time thing... WHY, why is it so important to you to have M be Lord? Because that was the deal guy, don't you remember? Lord of the Universe? Don't tell me that you have spent the last 25 years being so COOL and laid back that you missed that one? What went through YOUR mind when you asked for knowledge? Be honest now, that's the only prerequisite for this forum. Why attach the religious connotations? We didn't DOC, Maharaji did. Or has that slipped by you as well. Sure it's convenient to blame these little misunderstandings on faulty premie misconceptions but you have to admit that Maharaji has had plenty of time to correct them. If the Master does not have any responsibility for what his followers perceive, believe or experience then what is his purpose as a teacher? I don't wish to be rude for rudeness sake DOC but what you say is crap. It has all the qualities of carefully crafted marketing material. It fills space with words and says absolutley zip. You may as well be selling time-shares for all the substance your writing contains. The closest you came to expressing yourself was to say that '....then my life is enhanced.' What, like with Prozac. Take a good long look inside yourself DOC and tell me that you are satisfied with the deal. I've got to go now as my connection is being shut down. Talk to you again soon I hope. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 12:59:55 (EST)
From: DOC Email: None To: Richard Subject: Be honest.... Message: A white suit.... not in at least 10 years or so! Ever been to G'ville as a guest of the ashram? Your last name begin with a P? Are you musically inclined? Honestly I received K because I had been searching for a direct connection to the ultimate, god, whatever! I did not want to follow a religion and hope that after I died I would get to be with that ultimate. When I heard M speak, something within resonated a feeling that this may be it! As it turned out, once receiving K, it WAS! No question, no doubt, Sorry! As for HOW M does things... well I myself would have been much less attentive to the 'feelings' of those that perpetuated the religion of K... I probably would have fired them and just changed things... but when you are dealing with sincere efforts (even if they were wrong effort) one has to be a little more patient... and gently nudge (at times, blatently push) the consciousness of premies. Again I am not speaking for M and how he does things,I just see that things don't happen the way I want them to all the time.. if they did you all would really have a beef with the way things are/were done! hahahaa ::: looking inside:::: Yes I am quite satisfied with the 'deal'. The deal was receive this K, practice, listen to 'inspirational discourse'(not what most premies rambled on about), and keep in touch with M... Put in other words maybe, but always meant the same to me... DOC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 14:10:27 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: DOC Subject: Be honest.... Message: I did not want to follow a religion and hope that after I died I would get to be with that ultimate. When I heard M speak, something within resonated a feeling that this may be it! Okay I felt a similar way to you and I relate to what you say here. I hope you don't mind me joining in your conversation with richard. However what abuot when M clearly says now (apparently not what he used to say) that he only talks about the period between life and death, that is his domain, not after death. He clearly says he doesn't know what happens after death. He says the odds of reincarnation are extremely low. He also said that people who don't receive K are like a flower that doesn't open, ashes to ashes, dust to dust. He had a strange story once abut a king who built a palace in the desert while he was king. so that when the villagers turfed him out as was their practice with each king, they realised he had been so smart as to build this palace while he was king, they let him stay! Now that's not even logical as a parable or analogy, because if the desert is death, why is the endign of the story that he gets to not die! Anyway. I do not wish to criticise you, that is a bad habit I have. Personally, I started to wonder seriously whether this place/state I experienced while practicing was heaven!!??? I mean is it like, you get to know that place, so somehow the part of you that is conscious of that place will remain conscious of it after you die? - so you get to become enlightened ie consciously one with god? But how could you do that and still retain your individual awareness? This is a good subject, I think. I am glad you have found somewhere that you believe is not just 'an apartment in the city of death' to quote Kabir. It is a good thing to live with faith and trust. However personally I wonder that the great vast infinite unknowable god would set the rules that we had to meditate while alive to go to heaven when we die. Sadly, I think what stays here stays, and what goes has always been there. M says this too in his way, about the finite and the infinite being joined during this life only. Why can't he go beyond his bird leaving the cage parable? He treats life like a prison, in that context. Yet again he is not talking about death or life after death - because he has already stated quite clearly that his turf is only life, and not beyond. That is, recently anway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 18:45:04 (EST)
From: DOC Email: None To: Jude Subject: Be honest.... Message: Jude, I appreciate your comments. I don't know if you were asking for a reply but I will continue the train of thought... What I have understood when M talks about not knowing about after-life... is what I also have always felt. And that is that why be concerned about the after-life when we are alive NOW. When my dad died (I was 16) I wanted to know where he had gone to, I saw his body in the casket and knew that that was NOT what I loved in my dad. All the spiritual teachers I had asked were not able to satisfy my quest. As I said when I heard M speak something resonated inside of me that knew. M has said that he isn't giving anyone something new, or out of his pocket, it already is there. Again how it is packaged or in what manner it is shown may change, but what exists... exists. K has and is quite a pleasure, M has and is very inspiring to me. Whether Visions or EV is, can be questioned... I myself have no interest in harboring negativity about it, it also though is.... I may not like the business practices of Kelloggs (?) but I still eat their cereal. Through K I am able to enjoy moment by moment of this life. I am by no means perfect in my practice but I also recognise that being in tune with that place within me has enhanced my ability to appreciate and enjoy. I have always retained an individuality, that is part of me, I practice individually, I have a personality (some say I am funny),I live, work, eat, drink, be merry etc etc, and probably blend in with the majority of society, yet inside of me is a freedom, an experience of quiet wonderment. DOC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 18:54:36 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: DOC Subject: Yes, you're funny alright Message: I have always retained an individuality, that is part of me, I practice individually, I have a personality (some say I am funny), Doc, with all due respect, you sound like a Moonie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 20:20:02 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: DOC Subject: Kelloggs Message: Dear DOC, Some people would boycott products because of the practices of the manufacturer. I have and still do this. I have boycotted Nesteles for years because of their involvement in using sales people dressed as doctors and nurses selling formula to 3rd world mothers who can't afford it and don't have clean water to make the formula and super dillute it to stretch it etc. I also boycott many companies for their support of animal testing. Many have come around and I'd have to check before writing their names here. Do you get my point. Would you follow someone like Hitler, ignoring his actions if what he said appealed to you? I'd like to think not!!! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 19:16:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: DOC Subject: That was 'honesty' Doc Message: As for HOW M does things... well I myself would have been much less attentive to the 'feelings' of those that perpetuated the religion of K... I probably would have fired them and just changed things... but when you are dealing with sincere efforts (even if they were wrong effort) one has to be a little more patient... and gently nudge (at times, blatently push) the consciousness of premies. Doc, this is offensive rubbish. Unoriginal as far as apologies for Maharaji go, but rubbish all the same. Maharaji was in control, every step of the way. You're kidding yourself in the worst way if you think otherwise. He was in control when he experimented with softening his grip on devotees in '75/'76 and he was in control when he reversed course in late '76, early '77. He was in control when he rode the premies through that dreadful period of marathon satsangs in the late 70s (Remember how he 'made' initiators back then? Stuck them in a little house at the bottom of Anacapa Drive for literally months, forcing them to spend day after day sitting in a circle singing his glories. Did they 'go through a lot'? I guess so. Must have been very purifying, huh?). He was in control when he pressured all the ashramies to stay put in the late 70's and in control when he closed out his 'monastic order' in '83. Maharaji was in control when he challenged the world to ask the question 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' and he was in control when he bunkered up, stop taking questions and started hiding behind suckers like you. Maharaji was in control when he announced that his World Welfare Association would take care of the sick, lonely and needy throughout the world. He was in control when he announced that his Divinue United Organization would run the damn thing. He was in control when he 'declared' that he was the most powerful incarnation of God to ever trod the planet, the Saviour of Mankind, The Supreme Lord in Human Form, and when he promised that he would bring peace to the world in short order. He was in control when he explained in Kissimee that 'not a leaf moved' but by his grace. He was in control (if you could call it that) when he warned us that he was so powerful he could, if he wanted, lift the whole world 'up in the air and turn everyone blue'. He was in control when he took all the money he could possibly squeeze out of us (while at the same time pretending that he wasn't about to 'pressure' anyone) and spent it on nothing but luxuries for himself. No, Doc, your threadbare parroting of the party line makes no sense whatsoever. Get real. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 07:52:09 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: That was 'honesty' Doc Message: I learn more every time you tell it, Jim. Thank you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 23:49:46 (EST)
From: *>*....b Email: None To: rvftubgyuhn Subject: fat chance Message: his distain comes through again. 'listen to 'inspirational discourse'(not what most premies ramble on about)' he is always looking with distain at whatever the premies did or said and THEY were to blame for everything. NOT him. total narcissist. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 00:46:24 (EST)
From: *>*.. once again, Email: None To: dick Subject: doc is the ONLY clear premie Message: once again, it is US attaching religious connotations to rawat and it has nothing to do with him. WE are the ones that did that also! this alleged doc of course was never so confused to fall for the religious stuff the PREMIES came up with. total denial. total rawat. it is ALWAYS other fault. HE never is to blame. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 07:53:33 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: *>*.. once again, Subject: doc is the ONLY clear premie Message: Doc all I can say is, can you see how you are protecting him, when it's you who needs protection? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 12:20:25 (EST)
From: DOC Email: None To: all Subject: doc is the ONLY clear premie Message: Amazing, that while I have asked again and again about one's motive to receive K, I have heard only targeted critisizm of me! Jim, I ask you to consider that possibly someone running the ORG (like mishler) may have been trying to change things the way THEY felt things should be... is it possible that M was listening to input from people with their own agenda's? Maybe that is why mishler was fired? And yet is it really necessary to tell all that crap to the premies? what good would it serve? Would it have inspired you to practise K? I doubt it! When I was in England (as a foreigner), I depended on many local people to assist me in getting around town, sites, etc. When someone gave me wrong information... how was I to know it was wrong? Only after I saw that I was not headed TOWARDS where I wanted to go could I see that. Would it have helped me to 'denounce' the provider of that information? No, I still had to go on. I depended on many others to help me! Again the motive for receiving K is what needs to be looked at. If you received K because M said he was god.... I have some real estate in the swamps to sell you! Many make claims that mean nothing to me, I have to trust my own instincts. If you say you can show me something ... then do it! M did , for me... and many others, yesterday and today! Even in the early 70's people were asked to search inside themselves for the reason they wanted K, to come to K without guile. Remember? Well I am not going to condemn you for your being what you are, in fact it does not affect me, you have to live with yourself...and I with myself. Please enjoy your life. DOC Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 12:38:28 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: DOC Subject: doc is the ONLY clear premie Message: DOC, Rick Remington told me I would be able to play the piano after if I would receive K. Seriously. Sounded good to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 12:54:11 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: DOC Subject: why I received Knowledge Message: Hey DOC - Here is an answer to your question. (Some of the other people on here have heard this before, so apologies for boring anyone). When I heard about Maharaji, I was a very depressed and anxious 16-year-old. For about the past year and a half or so, I had been searching for something spiritual. I had gotten into some of the weird spiritual trips that were floating around, and I'd also taken a lot of pyschedelic drugs in my effort to become an enlightened person (I didn't take these drugs for fun - I hated the after-effects). Both my parents were heavily into drinking so no support from family - however I had a number of friends who were in the same boat - abandoned by families. One of these friends ran away from home and found out about Maharaji (in Portland Oregon). She hitched back across the US to tell her east coast friends about it. That's when I started going to satsang - as far as I can remember, it was in late September or early October of 1972. I really liked the premies in the ashram and they were very kind to me. Listened to a lot of satsang, and the message I got from it is that receiving Knowledge was going to give me spiritual enlightenment, which would then make me happy. I think at that point, I really wanted the happiness more than the spiritual enlightenment. I was very unhappy. I also wanted to get knowledge because I believed that Maharaji was the living perfect master of the time (like Jesus, etc.), and I thought that following him was the right thing to do, and that it would bring me some kind of fufillment. Incidentally, I received K after going to satsang for about a month. Maybe this is having a guileful heart and an impure desire - I'm not sure what you will think. When I look back on it, I am not sure how I could have felt any differently - for one thing, I was sixteen years old, and for another I was really unhappy, and for another, I'd been doing lots of drugs which had really messed up my head. I was about as sincere as I could be at the time. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:46:38 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Doc, I dare you Message: If you received K because M said he was god.... I have some real estate in the swamps to sell you! Doc, I DARE you to put your real name to this! Let Maharaji see how you're trying to defend him. Come on, man, put yourself on the line. I'm Jim Heller and I live in Victoria, B.C. No cats but my girlfriend has two. Who the hell are you, spouting such shit? Come on, man, get real. You knw as well as I do that Maharaji would slam your ass hard big time if he could find it. Well? Oh yeah, I received Knowledge because I was looking for love in all the wrong places. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 18:04:33 (EST)
From: DOC Email: None To: Jim Subject: Doc, I dare you Message: Haahhaahahahaaa :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 18:07:31 (EST)
From: DOC Email: None To: Katie Subject: why I received Knowledge Message: Thanks Katie for your honest reply. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 16:23:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Bruce flounders a bit Message: Bruce, Below, I asked you about your line that 'M's authenticity is not under any cloud of any significance'. I asked you what insignificant cloud you thought hung over M's authenticity. You still haven't answered this. Well? You're quite right, of course, Satpal is an ex-premie. He's also an ex member of the Holy Family and he's also claiming that M was never supposed to be the guru in the first place. Wouldn't you like to get to the bottom of this? Don't you acknowledge the possibility that the history you've got in your head, scanty on details to be sure, could be wrong? Or don't you care? What do you think of Satpal's followers who tell me that they're not interested in learning anything further about their guru's history? What would you say to them? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 12:39:39 (EST)
From: Doc Email: None To: Everyone Subject: From the sidelines... Message: I am amazed at the fact that while there are hundreds of thousands of people who have recieved K, less than a dozen are as cynical and bitter as those that post here are! I have been reading the posts here for a few weeks and see the same names over and over and over again! Some several times in an hour! Why not set up a live chat room for the few of you that apparently feel 'betrayed'! Personally I have had K for over 25 yrs and have enjoyed K and M the whole time! I was one of those ashram premies and did do work for M at his residence in Miami in late 70's early 80's. One of the posts I read mentioned that M would only allow females to work INSIDE the gates, NOT TRUE my friends! I was also a community co-ordinator, and saw for myself the need to close the 'ashrams' or adjust them to actually become what they were intended to be as opposed to a place for some lazy, uninspired premies to live off of the community support. I was always encouraging families to first look after their kids (feed and diaper them) before they send $ to the ashram or M. I also started to eliminate the premie religion that had become more important than the experience of K (got rid of the satsang hall {too expensive and not necessary}, trimmed the ashram down {to just a few people that were able to volunteer to put events on in the house for new people}, and basically encouraged premies to get on with living their lives and enjoying the practice of K) You may like to know that I had tomatoes thrown at me, and was beat up by some so called premies for doing this, as I found out later these so-called premies never practiced K, they just liked the group thing, the religion of K! I myself left the ashram to pursue a career elsewhere and have always cherished K and M. Many of you seem to enjoy being arm-chair quarterbacks or back seat drivers, that is fine but perception is a funny thing! Your outlook on a situation is clouded by your 1-pre-conceived notions, 2-expectations, 3-imaginations, and 4- mis-information! I imagine that whatever M says the few of you will always see it as negative. And please don't start quoting parts of M's talks to re-affirm your perceptions, you can pull anything out of context and make it suit your wants! It also appears most of you that post were around in the early 70'sand 80's, times change, but K has always been pleasurable, but I guess I wasn't one of those that wanted the religion of K, nor the structure around M, nor the premie world. For me, M showed me a simple method to enjoy life, was then and still is now. I wonder if you all critisize actors or musicians or politicians that live financially secure due to the people that follow and support THEM! Albeit by seeing their movies, buying their cd's or donating to their campaign! M has never asked you or anyone else to support his work, or his lifestyle even, unless you wanted to, and have felt the desire from within to contribute (time or money). If you felt you were being forced to by co-ordinators, or even instructors, then your desire to please THEM was more important than your exp was. Were you one of those that felt by being in the ashram or by donating time or money you were automatically going to get special attention by M? Check your motives for what you did! If the peer pressure was too much for you to make your own decisions then that is YOUR problem... again check your motivation. Why did you receive K? Because someone said M was god? Even when M said it,(again in context), what was your motive? I persued K because inside of me what was expressed made sense! I came with the attitude of 'show me' I will see for myself. Although I had no use for those that made this out to be some out of body, spiritual, voodoo, or mystical thing. I never wanted to be vegetarian, spiritual, or a humanitarian,I knew what I wanted , and K turned out to satisfy me. Yes I am very grateful to M, and enjoy his inspiration to continue growing in the practice of K. I wonder if any of you old timers can get over your bitterness, your expectations of M, or your disdain for premie world (hahaha) and try to enjoy K,independantly of your ideas. See if you can enjoy the simple joy in your life... and continue living the life that you are. Make the effort to keep the negativity, the blame, etc etc , out for a few minutes and allow yourself to enjoy. If you want to see M, and hear him speak, great! If not then don't! Same with K, either enjoy it or don't! I know it is very difficult to let go of the past (consider that your perception may not be true?) It is often easier to blame M, K, or EV, Visions, other premies, etc, and feel that your time in the ashram was wasted (too bad) than to just get on with life and see where it takes you. If you are happy not utilizing K , Great! However use what you all have been preaching here,your thought process, evaluate and consider what your motivations were when you received K. Maybe you all can post what you find honestly?! If you received K for any reason other than personal experience of that simple 'thing' that resonates within you, then think again about it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 13:58:32 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Doc Subject: From the sidelines... Message: Your figures argument is illogical. The fact is that of all the premies and ex-premies, only a tiny percentage of them have internet access. Look at this forum. There are very few premies posting here in support of Maharaji and they are all the same people, week after week. If internet access was as commonplace as having a telephone then a true picture of how many disgruntled ex-premies there are, could be assessed. At the moment, all we have to go on is the 'ratio' of premies to ex-premies that post here and that shows us that far more ex-premies post here than premies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 15:58:10 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Sir David Subject: Ched-off topic Message: Dear David, Sorry to hear you aren't feeling well. I have been reading in the inactive list and archives and as always your posts move me or get me thinking or both! I don't know if saw a post from me awhile back but I deleted, mistakenly, your email that gave me the URL to an experience you had. I really would like to see it and wish you would re-email me or post it here. Thank you. Also I would like to continue discussing child rearing, if you would consider that. Feel better, Robyn hurt my shoulder weedeating Memorial Day weekend '98 I've wanted to do that for sooooo long, ahhhh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 14:11:39 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Doc Subject: From the sidelines... Message: Dear Doc, That was hilarious!!! I laughed through the whole thing. Spoken like a 'True Believer'. Well done! I wonder how many hundreds of more 'lurkers' there are out there? And how many of them have taken the steps to free themselves from this insidious cult by the 'grace' of this website? Keep reading Doc, you're here for a reason. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 14:34:37 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Doc Subject: What's up Doc? Message: Doc: I post here because I am concerned about social problems having to do with charismatic leadership, not because I'm bitter. And Maharaji represents a very interesting phenomenon in the sense that he apparently motivates a great deal of loyalty among some people, while he clearly does not measure up on any category that would qualify him for the sort of spiritual leadership that he claims as his office. He does not fail miserably, mind you. He just fails. I happen to have received Knowledge a long time ago, but regard the entire DLM and Knowledge experience as part of a re-socialization. It was not negative. The point is that Maharaji is illegitimate, so he represents a kind of blind spot that you exemplify very well. I'm not willing to say this is just a personal perception, but believe it is a general observation. Take away the link between Knowledge and Maharaji, and he is substandard in just about every conceivable way. Not even a close call, once you overcome the mystique! Your attribution of bitterness is false. It's a great deal more like concern mixed with interest. In the end I'm a great deal more concerned with the larger significance of the phenomenon. The great sociologist, Samuel Beer, devoted his career to finding out what went wrong with Germany in the 30s and 40s, and how to inoculate the liberal institutions of the West from that madness. I see charisma as indispensable, so it becomes extremely important to differentiate good charisma from bad. MJ is a clear case of someone who might have had potential, and comes rather close in some areas, but clearly doesn't bear close scrutiny. Suggest you, yourself, look a little closer. Doc Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 14:56:58 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Doc Subject: From the sidelines... Message: If you really have been reading posts then you would know that many of us do value the knowledge itself as meditation techniques but with our own modifications. It wasn't Maharaj Ji's knowledge to give, it's older than that and many teachers have taught it, some without requiring any devotion to them. Some people have even discovered it without teachers. It is ours, inside of us! You ask why we received knowledge. I personally wanted to see,know,love and serve god. That was how Guru Maharaj Ji was packaged with this knowledge, and very convincingly to me! It has taken me years to clear the duality of the message and remove him from blocking the way for me to do what I originally intended: to find God within myself and to act in the world from that place of knowledge which requires no go-between. I am not an angry bitter person but I have been a depressed and confused and guilty one. I have been helped here and feel I can be of help to others who feel hurt at a very deep level by their experiences with M and some of his premies and by some of their own thought constructs or delusions. It is a brave thing to confront and challenge your own basic belief systems and it is something best done with support from people who understand. I am also a very hopeful and sometimes inspired person who believes in the triumph of the human spirit in any adversity. Maybe you were the model of what premies were meant to be, but you have not experienced the same things that others have; and other premies in positions of authority or persuasion were not you. You are not in any position to invalidate other people's experiences because they were not like yours! Keep reading and your impressions may change! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 16:04:18 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Doc Subject: From the sidelines... Message: to begin with I am not going to give my email address because I want you to respond to me, if you do, not likely, publicly. Yes I am a premie who arrived back in the 70's. I guess that should embarass me. I was such a jump up and down with delight 'flighty premie' over finding what I had seriously looked for and despaired of ever finding. Maybe the tears I am shedding these days are not tears of joy but rather tears of compassion for that pathetic guy who is still rather pathetic I might add and how little success he/i has had in really finding and really enjoying any connection to or access to a basis for proceeding in life. I have never, whether relaxed or avaricious about it ever experienced any of that peace and contentment or beauty or light or music or etc. that I heard others talking about but for once with music at initiation, once maybe for nectar, never for holy name, and once maybe for light at a review. I did have experiences that always seemed to be given to me by someone or something and even they were few and far between. I lived on jumping to conclusions about events or sharings that seemed to be synchronous. I know this: I always wanted to be in control of being high or blissed out or liberated or in contact with goddess/god and I never had the guts to actually toss everything else aside and go for it in whatever way I could. Now on to the supposedly bitter expressions on this site. This is the only place (never in the ashram, never at festivals, and never from GMJ) where I have been responded to as if what I was asking for meant anything. I have been patronized so often I had come to expect it and consequently drifted further and further into isolation. I had finally come to a point where I was actually having trouble taking care of myself. Even the experiences where I was touched by GMJ's power were like baubles, trinkets on a dying tree. I need a lot. I need to be cared for on a regular basis just like I fertilize, water, and spray my plants. Maybe I expect too much of guru. Maybe he isn't as powerful as I convinced myself he was as a consequence of getting those treats. Maybe he can't support and guide me as I think a guru is obligated to. If there was any enjoyment in the practice of knowledge I would certainly take advantage of it. As it is I am reduced to the enjoyment of sharing with others who can relate to my concerns and will be with me in a genuine and open way. At this point I am reminded of a saying from Da Free John, 'Avoiding relationship?' Go meditate or watch a video or ... and leave me alone, eh? And I have never heard more detailed descriptions of what it is like to enjoy the practice of the meditation techniques than I have heard here. I tend to equate the ability and willingness to relate detail with the willingness to tell the truth. Of course I am not talking about TRUTH but just truth. For me, that will do just fine. I find it very empowering. Anything less is condescending and decidedly disempowering. Which leads to consideration of the predisposition I certainly have and which I think I observed in others to stick to the general and refer to the details as merely details or beside the point when one considers the BIG PICTURE. Pardon my rambling please. I am just waking up. Premie. Lover of god. If... I think I'll catch the Steps to Awareness Festival here in Telluride in a couple of weeks. I don't feel so superior these days. I could use some awareness. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 16:14:24 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Doc Subject: From the sidelines... Message: Doc, From the sidelines onto the playing field, eh? I wond3er if you'll bother answering three questions for me: 1) How do you explain Maharaji claiming that he was God? (By the way, if you like, I could show you several quotes where he specifically claimed to be 'God in human form', 'the Supreme Lord in human form' and the' saviour of mankind'.) 2) What's your opinion of the proposition Kramer and Alstead (The Guru Papers) assert and which I've been trying to get a premie to comment on, namely that authority figures who punish or refuse to deal with underlings who don't obey them without question are authoritarian? 3)How'd you hear of the site? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 21:46:06 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: From my sidelines... Message: Hmmmm! I feel right now I could say so much about M and premies and still have a lot more to say. I attended a 'participation meeting' a couple of days ago...and spent a couple of hours discussing and asking questions (one to one) with a visiting instructor. Together with the videos my experience of this day was and is quite profound....and I am still digesting things. I feel that I'm hearing Maharaji....where he is and where he wants things to go. And I am really able to view everything with a non-conclusive perspective....on one level ; in other words, how things have been and are may be 'good' for some. But the question I need to ask myself is , 'is it good for me?' And what I realise is that as things are now and where it seems Maharaji is steering 'his ship' is not good for me. The reasons for this are many and varied, but kind of boil down to one thing. I don't agree with Maharaji. I don't agree with him specifically in some key areas. And I don't agree with the consequences (that I perceive) that flow from some of these 'key areas'. Now that is very abstract I know, but I shall be more concrete in posts to follow. What I want to say now is .....I feel it is okay to not be a 'premie' and still watch videos when you want to. It is okay to practice Knowledge when (and how) you want to. I am not a premie. Really , I have never been a premie. I am me. I am not a devotee and don't want to be a devotee....ACCEPT a devotee of what is real for me. I agree with many things Maharaji says and does and disagree with other things he says and does. I cannot obey him as if he were my master. He is not my master. If that makes me an ex-premie or a non-premie in the eyes of some so be it ; if that makes me a ;confused premie in the eyes of others , so be it. For me, I feel free...really free to be me......a little of this spice here and a little of that spice there. Call me 'allspice' if you want! Where does this place me in regards to Maharaji? Well, it means I can freely criticize and approve , disagree and agree, if I choose to. It means (it would seem) that I am definately not a premie in the world of EV, in the thinking of premies , nor to Maharaji himself. Indeed I am a rebel. ;(anti-synchronization type); I am me, me , me and me and if this cannot be intergrated into M's world then me is truly on the 'sidelines' . Btw, the term 'synchronization' is a real catch-phase being used by Maharaji now. For me , this new emphasis is fraught with difficulties, but I shall pause for a while before continuing . Catch my breath! Regards, Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 22:52:18 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: everyone Subject: From my sidelines...continued Message: One disagreement with Maharaji. I feel (strongly) that premies need to interact more with each other, ask any questions they have, share views, share sat-sang, share bullshit(so that it can be dealt with), learn and grow into trusting and understanding each other.(Many premies may disagree with me but how I do I know what premies are thinking and feeling when generally speaking no-one shares much with each other in group situations). I feel that premies ought not feel afraid of being themselves; but rather grow in confidence , to express as well as turn-in.(Not only Maharaji and some instructors are chatterboxes and love to share .....I do too!) I don't agree with Maharaji's strong influence(even 'directive') that premies should only focus on those things that HE deems as VITAL; practicing Knowledge, watching videos , propagating (minimally, just enough to get people interested to attend a video presentation) and 'synchronization', which means something like ...'everyone falling into step' with Maharaji's 'vision' and wishes.....and of course, service. Premies are just human-beings like everyone else and have real multiple needs... and I'm not referring to all the neurotic desires and habits we may still have(and which need disolving or transforming)but I am referring to our 'multiple real needs'. It seems Maharaji is over-authoritarian, and I do not truly understand why He feels the need to be so . I know how some ex's may like to inform me here, but I am have not just been born(or re-born), so please spare me your overly simplistic reasons. Personally I suspect partly that Maharaji doesn't trust too many people when it boils down, and as much as I could sympathise and empathise with this , I feel he has moved way too far in that direction. I seem to have lower standards than Maharaji....and feel that His standards are unreasonably high ....and that this creates a myriad of problems , not all of which are easily detectable. I seem to have more faith in peoples(premies) minds , to be able to integrate experience , thought and action......and in the dynamic that can occur when premies (people) are given opportunities to really communicate to each other. Mind can be a wonderful companion when integrated with knowledge , I mean the awareness and experience of the living (omni-present) knowledge that one can learn to integrate with mind and action. I don't agree with maharaji's varied ways of putting down mind , per-se'. And the idea that premies who need to question things or have doubts maybe need therapy I feel is an insult and misleading. The entire process of hearing Maharaji and practicing Knowledge is Theraputic. Life is Theraputic. And to have doubts and ask questions and feel safe too, is Theraputic. So, this is just one area of where I disagree with Maharaji and the effects he is having on premies. Things are too closed....open them up! Share the power more! Disempower yourself a bit and empower others more! Not so much sychronization....more real communication! Maharaji , allow yourself to be challenged . Come down from the mountain and play with us, talk with us , be more human......bring divinity down to where I live my life. Stop talking and leading and listen to me ....really receptively. Learn from others too. ABOLISH THE PSEUDO DISTANCE THAT EXISTS BETWEEN YOU AND ME!! Change the game-plan; change your role! Just some feelings I needed to share! Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 12:55:50 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Keith Subject: From my sidelines...continued Message: Hi Keith - I really enjoyed reading your posts. Thanks for having the courage to go and talk to the visiting instructor and others at the participation meeting. The things you wrote about were very interesting. I, personally, don't think Maharaji is evil or bad - I think he genuinely believes that he's doing what's right. I also believe that, as you say, he has VERY high standards - so high that none of us could probably ever meet them. Thus the need to do and say everything himself. I am also not sure if he's able to question his own decisions or actions, possibly because he believes, because he's been told since childhood, that everything he does or says is 'perfect. Since I don't believe that everything he does or says is perfect, this bothers me. (I hope you don't mind my speculations here!) I have to say that the word 'synchronization' (which you say is the new slogan now) is scary to me because of its implications of total conformity with Maharaji's wishes. I don't want to be synchronized with anyone! Take care, Keith, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 16:12:11 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Keith Subject: From my sidelines... Message: Dear Keith, Thanks for your post. I wonder how Marabi is? Is she your wife? Does she see things the way you do? I hope you two can live harmoniously. I have enjoyed your questioning mind and am, of course pleased that you are finding yourself regardless of M's position. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 21:04:42 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Robyn Subject: From my sidelines... Message: Yes Robyn, Mirabai is my wife. And we are very 'synchronized' in most areas of perspective. We have 'journeyed' together for many years and it's good to have such a compatable companion. Our best wishes to you, Welcome back, Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 23:36:47 (EST)
From: DOC Email: None To: Jim Subject: From the sidelines... Message: I will try my best to answer you... 1- First question is difficult to answer other than to give you MY opinion... When I am enveloped in the experience that resounds within me I AM GOD... the 'I' is surrendered to the god-like nature within.... in fact I have heard of many theories that abound that god is everywhere and we all are god! One thing to remember about M or me or you or anyone out there... if what I say helps you get closer to an experience within you, GREAT! If not, then let it pass. It is merely words. Perhaps you take the words too literally and attempt to gain a mental understanding of each word rather than the point being made? Many have thought that what Jesus supposedly said about the father son and holy ghost was blasphemy... I try not to allow myself to get bogged down on this point. 2- I am not aware of these papers you mention... Yet I have seen the result of people around M doing what THEY thought he said to do when he didn't. If I was in charge I would have fired them or sued them. What makes this org. different than any other? MAYBE some of you all thought this was supposed to be a 'spiritual' religious thing? In my exp. it never was, to me! I never wanted a spiritual trip! I drink, smoke, and enjoy all the things I have in life. Thanks to M I allow what is inside of me (K) to guide me. As to being authoritarian... so are most employers. That is the real world. 3- I came across this site while looking up 'Maharaji', to see what was out there! As far as I can see, it appears to be a few premies that for whatever reason, either they expected M to be the concept of a saint, religious leader, or they might not have held the position (mahatma{haha}, director, co-ordinator, head usher, or primary chair washer!!{a joke}) that they either wanted to attain or had and were removed. Again I stress that motivation is what needs to be looked at. Why make M or K such a complicated thing? Free will has always played a part of my experiences. Maybe the problems some of you encountered were a result of mindless following of other premies, and THEIR misunderstandings? And if that were true I'd be pissed off at them and I'd yell at them too (I did and was considered 'NON SPIRITUAL') Too bad, I say. M has been quite helpful to me, his video's, his talks, etc. I have never confused what he says with what other's have interpreted he meant. I also understand that M is growing in his exp. of K too! As are those that practice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 07:53:36 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: DOC Subject: From the sidelines... Message: As far as I can see, it appears to be a few premies that for whatever reason, either they expected M to be the concept of a saint, religious leader, or they might not have held the position.(mahatma{haha}, director, co-ordinator, head usher, or primary chair washer!!{a joke}) that they either wanted to attain or had and were removed. Really.Give me break, DOC. That is not the general rule and you surely can see that. From what I have read here, the people that have written are by no means not motivated by this sort of petty 'sour grapes' stuff, although some people like yourself (for some bizarre reason) feel compelled to continually accuse them of being so. Regarding the authoritarianism of MJ. I think it is fundamental to the principle of the Master (in the way that MJ, his father before him and 'avatar' movements in general present this notion) and a lot can be understood about the roots of Maharaji's attitude by reading the works of his father.(Hans Yog Prakash) Therein Shri Hans very directly states his outlook that Guru Maharaji is the ultimate authority and that this world owes him everything and He, to the world, nothing. Read the book. it is all there. Fair enough if you like that sort of thing. Personally I think it is going too far, and I am uncomfortable with this kind of authoritarian viewpoint. I really believe that Maharaji shares the attitude of his father. Although he tones down the rhetoric somewhat, the message is still the same. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 10:53:01 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: DOC Subject: Doc, this looks familiar... Message: Doc: This looks like exactly the post that you posted for Jim above. Why do it twice. Nothing else to say? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 12:11:04 (EST)
From: DOC Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Doc, this looks familiar... Message: Actually, I had tried to respond to Jim several times and kept getting msgs saying post 'failed' to be sent. I didn't realize it would be sent later on it's own. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 06:32:51 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Hey Doc! Subject: From the sidelines... Message: You said : >I am amazed at the fact that while there are hundreds of >thousands of people who have recieved K, less than a dozen are >as cynical and bitter as those that post here are! Sure, hundreds of thousands came to M! The question is: where are they now ? Why don't you give the actual figures ? Some 150,000 left in India, 3-4,000 left in the US, 5,000 left in Europe ..... Amongst the hundreds of thousands who left m & k, some come here (like me) and express what they feel from their past involvement. Most of them don't have any access to this Forum, and many don't even want to think more about the past. Did you ever wonder why ? That's a question worth asking IMHO. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 10:56:25 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Doc Subject: From the sidelines... Message: As for coming to Guru Maharaj Ji and Knowledge so that I could live in an ashram or hold any or all of those stupid little ego trip positions I think not. I never held any position other than poor premie and I thought, wrongly as usual, that all I needed was myself and my clearly demonstrated willingness to work and work hard. I'm going to get personal and if you don't like it well you can respond in kind or you can condescend to me which I think is far more likely. I think I have you my swift and sure organizer and motivator and as for me I think your type is one of the more distasteful sorts of reptiles that crawls around on this planet. If you are practicing meditation and you are an example of what it does to or for a human being then I am proud of the fact that I am not one of the experienced. You are cold, judgemental, distant, and a self centered manipulator, read: employer (in your words). I have been an employer and an employee and the best employers are far from authoritarian. And are you saying Maharaj Ji is an employer? He's nothing but some kind of industrialist or manager, some greedy little deciever? Maybe he's a developer. We have a lot of them here in Telluride. I have never known a one of them to be other than greedy, mean spirited, and fearful. And in the true style of a self serving manager you have not answered one of the contradictory assertions offered to you here in far more civil style. That says to me that you see anyone who confronts or disagrees with you as a noisome entity that either needs to be deflected or fired (whatever you can get away with and will keep you in the 'position of responsibility' you so covet). So there is some of it fearless leader type servant. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 16:51:01 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: everyone Subject: From the sidelines... Message: Firstly , let me say , that I especially agree with Katie's sentiments in the above post. Maharaji is not evil. He believes in what he's doing. And so on. But I no longer can believe in the way he is doing things. Things may change, but I can no longer endorse the direction M is travelling ,( as things stand). The instructor I spoke with surprized me. He was so generous with his time. Any thoughts about my questions being ignored, or about me being banished or punished were swept away. But hold on a moment! Yes, it's true....This particular instructor (and last year, I felt the same with Ira Woods) was only too happy to answer all my questions, but I felt certainly judged by most other premies. That is to be expected, of course. So, I appreciated all that time and energy shared with me. But, there were not to many strong points of agreement,I realised, especially when I had time to reflect on what was said. When I sit down and deeply reflect, (meditate) on what is going on I realise one major fact. My argument is not with the instructor, not with the premies, not with my self; no, my argument is with Maharaji. Instructors and premies are influenced strongly by Maharaji. I need to have a good old argument with Maharaji. I need to yell back at him. I need to ask him some very 'big' questions. I need to share with him my doubts, including the one about him saying that one should be allergic to doubts , which I feel is a lot of hogwash. There is nothing wrong with disagreement, my god, but to silence the premies the way that is happening is not right. TO be continued. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 17:20:36 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: everyone Subject: From the sidelines... Message: What I am hearing from Maharaji and was echoed by the instructor I conversed with, is something like this; Maharaji is only concerned with one thing; the preparing people for receiving K and the giving of K ; everything revolves around this; all else is a distraction; this is not about individuality, or the need of individuals to input or share , but rather it's about sharing a vision and trusting the Master in his attempt to bring this vision to fruition. In order to accomplish this , he has recently had a further insight . There is a need for 'synchronization'. The example he gave (on video) was about a watch. A watch is made up of so many different parts. What would happen if one or more of those parts wanted to function in a way that was other than needed for the overall workability of the watch? The purpose of the watch is to be able to tell time. This purpose cannot be fulfilled if the various parts of the watch are not 'perfectly' synchronized. Now there are fundamental truths being shared here. But the other question that needs to be asked is; who is the watch-maker and why is he making this particular watch? Maharaji is the watch-maker ! And this particular watch is the need he feels to synchronize everything . Which means what???? Is asking confronting questions anti-synchronization? How about having real doubts about Maharaji's way of doing things? How about needing to really 'participate' not just obey? How about being myself and not conforming to a sheep-like behaviorism? What exactly does 'synchronization' imply Maharaji? You have given me no 'formal' outlet for my personal input (except in trivial matters) and then want me to be quiet. The instuctor seemed really surprised that I expressed an enthusiasm towards wanting to know what other premies were thinking and feeling(it's called getting to know people). I said , of course I do, including you. People need to connect to each other , trust each other , not just Maharaji . It is admitted that ev is not a democracy. It is fundamentally an autocracy. And this I can no longer be a part of. I am open. Maharaji, if I am wrong, if I am blind to something vital, then show me . Sincerely , Keith Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 00:27:26 (EST)
From: Keith, Maharaji says Email: None To: Keith Subject: that you don't deserve it. Message: Keith, When you first came on to the forum, I thought that you had a bit of something that I really value in a person, individuality. You really do want to be your own person, don't you? I could also see you struggle to define yourself. It's hard when you have been following the agya of someone you can never converse with. I felt for you, I really did. Now you were actually given a chance to have a personal contact, though it wasn't with M. Just wanted to share something Maharaji said on a video that I think may be of interest to you. 'Knowledge is a gift from the master to you. Nobody deserves it. When a master plays a flute, and the sound is sweet and you listen to it, not that you DESERVE to hear that sound. Not that you DESERVE to hear the sweetness. But it is a gift that *is *given* to *you*. It is a gift. It doesn't have to happen. A lot of people don't understand that. How can that be? That's how it is. Sun does not grab you by the shoulders and pull you out on the street and say, 'Here I am. Admire me. Lie below me.' No! The sun shines and it's warmth is a gift to you. You do not have to take it, you can hide. So it is a gift. A lot of people say, 'well I deserve it.' No, you don't. You really don't.' Maharaji goes on to tell this story that really makes fun of the way that people seek knowledge and the way that they perceive the master. Keith, If this guy thinks that you don't even deserve to have the knowledge, what makes you think that he thinks you are worthy of having answers to your questions? Why would he listen to your suggetions about how he should run his little empire? The great thing about this is that you can run your own empire- YOUR LIFE and you get to make all of the suggestions... VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 17:23:46 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Keith Subject: From the sidelines... Message: I, before I got into knowledge, i gave most of my attention to Zen Buddhism where doubt is considered a virtue and the attitude to the Buddha is this: 'If you meet the Buddha on the pathway, kill him.' The behavior of the meditation masters or roshi's is typified by that of Obaku when he saw that he was too old to work any longer and said that if he could not work he would not eat. His monks found him digging his own grave and implored him to desist. Somehow, i do not remember exactly how, he got them to leave him alone and return to he zendo. When they returned they found him, standing in the grave he had dug, dead. This is one more study and possible growth that I left behind when I recieved knowledge. It actually may have contributed to my willingness to do what I saw as cutting to the chase instead of following the path of Zen which was never portrayed as anything but arduous and uncertain. I must settle into this and proceed or fall back as the case may be, but in any case I am grateful for being to read and post here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 01:16:53 (EST)
From: *>*...bb Email: None To: dick Subject: NOT ME! it's ALL YOUR FAULT! Message: HERE he comes out with classic rawat comments about premies. this time about the ashram premies, ' i saw for myself the need to close the ashrams or adjust them to actually be what they were intended to be as opposed to a place for lazy and uninspired premies to live off the community support' The distain and slam against the NOT lazy premies and the idea that they were sponging off the community support is totally in line with the delusion about the past and the inability to see what the suckers lives were actually like. the total denial of the efforts of the premies and what they actually did is classic rawat. the guy who cannot say thank you even today. except for the occasional money exchange in person comment. the total denial of all of rawats words and deeds and the total blameing on us is classic rawat. again stated here throughout the post. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 01:32:11 (EST)
From: *>*...bb Email: None To: dick Subject: total fraud Message: Here is rawat claiming to be perfect and correcting the confused self-following premies. he said he closed the satsang hall, the ashrams, started to get rid of the PREMIE RELIGION, of course he had nothing to do with it. he is again blameless. it is always someone else. the accursed pam. if he was beat up at all I'll bet jim hession can fill us in. I am sure some premies he abused finally got enraged and had the chance we wish we could have to deck him or worse. The kitchen staff person might have thrown tomatoes at him because he used to really put those guys throught hell. he claims it was 'PEER PRESSURE'!! Again, HE is blameless. It is all OUR stupidity. his repeated distain -shown in repeated posts is mentioned THIS way about us and OUR world. he goes 'premie world' (hahaha). here is the guru. in all his dementia. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 18:04:14 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I went to a video last night Message: I must say that now when I go to a video event, maybe once every other month, I have a new perspecive, and I am judging everything that M says. Last night the video was about copulation. For 20 minutes I was watching people from all over the world going to events and programs, walking into the building, smiling, and whatnot. The whole video was this way, and I was thinking to myself, what am I doing here watching other people go to programs on a VIDEO. What a waste of time. Then M said, 'I know some people don't want to go see videos, but it is not the video that is important to see, rather it is the message of the video. Now I'm sitting there and thinking 'what is the message on this 20 minute video?'. I want to hear about the heart, not about why I should go to video's. The next video was a Participation Video. (I began to realize that this video night was not going to be about the heart.) It was all about spreading the K to other people, how to do it, how not to do it, and that the Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 18:10:25 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: I went to a video last night Message: Well it's not going through again! To sum-up the message above, I Was DIS_HEARTENED after watching M talk about how K needs to be spread more and more all over the world. Why does he have to talk about it for a whole hour? Is he doing it because he's worried he won't have any new followers. Is he getting tired of the over 40's crowd, and same faces? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 18:28:05 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: I went to a video last night Message: Perhaps, as initiators used to say in the seventies: Aspirants are the lifeblood of the community. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 19:39:35 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Rick Subject: I went to a video last night Message: Yes, I can see what you mean that the aspirants are the lifeblood. When I tell a premie that I just recieved K, they get really excited and if I share any of my experiences, I sense they are getting old memories of when they received K, and their face lights up, at the expense of my sharing. In one of the videos last night, M said not to worry so much or make K a difficult thing. This implies to me that he know that every single Premie has a problem with K. WHY DOES IT HAVE TO BE SUCH A PROBLEM? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 15:02:19 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Rick Subject: I went to a video last night Message: 'Perhaps, as initiators used to say in the seventies: Aspirants are the lifeblood of the community.' Rick For some reason that brings to mind vampires! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 17:38:59 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Carol Subject: I went to a video last night Message: You hit the nail on the head, Carol. Thieves in the night. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:04:50 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: I went to a video last night Message: There's been lots and lots of 'helping Maharaji do propagation' for at least a year. It seems to have followed some sort of an era when Premies were told to say nothing. Someone else might know more the recent past history of this. But we had instructors coming specially to answer questions on how to actually talk to people about it and have a kind of think tank. One instructor said to me he saw it as fishing. Dangle the bait but don't say too much. Invite them along. It is obviously high on the agenda. It seems reasonable to assume this is because numbers have dropped off, perhaps some professionals who gave a lot of financial support have retired or are feeling an economic pinch. Also the big programs in India cost a lot and most of the people there are exceedingly poor. All this is speculation, hopefully someone in the know will let us in on more facts. But I was wondering, actually why he is doing this big push to India (considering the above issue). Could it be he is thinking of going back to the East, as othes have suggested, and is setting up a power base for himself there now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 21:01:46 (EST)
From: Earl of Cheese Sandwich Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Memphis Belle Subject: That's illogical Captain Message: If Maharaji wants more devotees, why doesn't he try to get back the 90% that he threw away in the eighties? Just an obvious thought. Also, how does he expect to spread this knowledge when he does not allow his devotees to talk about it? What is this guy? A lunatic or something!? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:16:47 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Earl of Cheese Sandwich Subject: That's illogical Captain Message: David: If Maharaji wants more devotees, why doesn't he try to get back the 90% that he threw away in the eighties? Just an obvious thought. Because we're now a bunch of tough-skinned bad-tempered old alligators. Natural consequence of seduction and betrayal. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 00:43:30 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: That's illogical Captain not Message: Look: m has already tried a lot of possibilities since the 70s. None of them worked really. His audience dropped dramatical. He has now set a new 'system' that took him more than 10 years. What are his alternative ? He's trying to develop more lands ..... for whom ? EV is in HUGE debts, he needs fresh blood, and more really devoted people. You don't want to devote your life to some weird indian guru nowadays .... who wants to ? He is stuck on his toilet throne. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 19:04:34 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: I went to a video last night Message: Was the video really about 'copulation' or a misprint of 'population'? Where are the juicy bits? M on copulation is fascinating. I am waiting the word of the master here... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 19:47:30 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Nigel Subject: This might be juicy Message: M said, '...take it,(k) and accept it. The creator has shown you a way to experience the most beautiful thing. Enjoy it for what it is...' Now then, when he said 'creator', did his tounge slip? Was he saying that God, the creator, showed him (M) K, and then in turn he has shown me? Or is M saying that he is God? I do feel that there is a little bit of GOD in all of us. But that no one here on this planet is GOD. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:07:48 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Nigel Subject: I went to a video last night Message: Nigel perhaps we are the juicy bits! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:47:36 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: Jude Subject: I went to a video last night Message: Jude, I am on the edge of leaving M. What was it that pushed you over the edge to leave him. If you don't mind sharing with me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 05:44:30 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: I didn't go to a video.... Message: Dear Memphis Belle I suggest you read everything here on the information section, talk to people as you are doing and also let your own feelings guide you. Don't pressure yourself at all. If you like listening to Maharaji, then listen. If you like practicing, then practice. You do these things for yourself, not for him, not for anyone else. It is important to recognize the difference between something that is making you happy, and something that is not making you happy. If something is not making you happy, then stop doing it and see how you feel. Do not feel guilty or afraid or stressed about it. Just think that you are growing and changing all the time and you must continue to do things that you find are good for you, whatever they may be. I asked my instructor what would happen to someone who never had knowledge, and she said she believed that the same way we have always been looked after, right from the womb, and the miracle of our life, is the way all of us are always looked after. I really liked her reply. Sometimes things can be good, and then later they don't feel so right. Just let yourself take the time to find your own way. And try and communicate with others, they way you have been doing, because you will realise you are not alone in how you feel. Whether your choice is right or wrong, nothing bad will happen to you. Just keep listening to your own inner voice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 09:01:07 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jude Subject: To Memphis Belle. Message: And to answer your original question, I actually drafted what ended up being a very long list of reasons which led to and helped me make my decision. Then I thought you probably don't need a whole list of someone else's confused reasons, but I hope you don't think I was being patronizing in the above answer. I am happy to publish my own reasons if you want to read them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 23:07:35 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Nigel/Memphis Belle Subject: I went to a video last night Message: Nigel, Are we randy, or what? I was thinking the very thing! I think that dear Memphis meant to say 'propagation' not 'copulation'. Memphis, I never received knowledge, because my mind kept doing the very thing that yours is now...having doubts! I wanted knowledge for a long long time, but kept going back and forth on it-thank the real God! I think that it might help you to see the Lord of the Universe video. I know that you want to remain anonymous, but if you ever change your mind, Brian and Katie are silent as the grave. They would not reveal your identity to anyone. We are mailing the video around and we would gladly include you on the list if you decide to open your identity to someone. (It's the first of our EX-premie videos. John and I will be making more. You know where to send the check-just kidding!) Please don't feel that I am trying to find out who you are, I am not. I just see how many times you post here for info and am trying to offer some to you. MB, I have been watching M videos all week. At first, I thought that they would be very seductive and I wasn't sure what to expect. What I discovered was that they were totally bogus for me. There are many reasons that I have come to this conclusion, but a few include: 1) I do not need a guru to lead me to God, even if it sounds tempting. 2) I do not need to go inside to enjoy my life. I can if I want to. 3) I do not need to give my time and talents to something that I do not enjoy or want to do. 4) A part of me felt WRONG wanting to be involved with M- sneaky and dishonest. 5) Knowledge can be difficult, because it is not what it is supposed to be. It is meditation, where you are supposed to relax, and there is a master trip tied to it which can make it full of anxiety. 6) Devotion to M is a crutch so that I do not have to accept responsibility for my own life and actions. Both of my legs work just fine. 7) I have better things to do than chase someone around the globe. I have responsibilities and things that I want to accomplish in my life. Other things that I want to enjoy. 8) I am not nearly as unworthy as M was telling me in one video. I am worthy of this life, or I wouldn't have it. I am worthy of my experiences. 9) Does the God that I know want to drive a Maserati and live in palatial estates? Would he be so unconcerned with poverty and health issues? 10) Would God yell at his followers? Treat people unkindly in order to 'get to them'? My list could go on and on. Those are some of the highlights. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 08:39:11 (EST)
From: John SA Email: None To: VP Subject: I went to a video last night Message: 1) I do not need a guru to lead me to god... a 'book publisher' will do - right ? 2) I do not need to go inside to enjoy my life .. it doesn't feel so bad .. honest! 3) I do not need to give my time and talents .. close but no cigar. 4) A part of me felt WRONG .. Hmm - smacks of the 'resurrection' to me. 5) K can be difficult because it's not what it's supposed to be.. and there's a 'master' trip .. make of the experience whatever blows your skirt up .. as for for the master trip, well .. HELLO Buddha, Krsna .. JESUS! 6) Devotion to M is a crutch so 'I' don't have to be responsible.. So who did you give your reigns to then? 7) I have better things to do than chase someone around .. stay out of other's buisness then! 8) I am not nearly as unworthy as M is telling me .. spot-on! 9) does the god I know? want to drive a mazerati .. no, but I'll give it human attributes and put 'him' in an illusionary state I'll call heaven .. and still do his dirty work for him any-old-way - right? 10)Would god yell at his followers .. Quit yelling - who's dirty work ARE you doing ?! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 08:46:29 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: John SA Subject: I went to a video last night Message: If only you knew how stupid your post is to read. Why don't you say something original instead of tailing on someone else's sentences with your own obscure comments, no idea what you mean in any of them. Do you do this when you join in a conversation, too? You would be totally obnoxious if that was the case, and you would be ignored. Get the drift? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 09:05:39 (EST)
From: John SA Email: None To: Jude Subject: I went to a video last night Message: Jude. Thanks! On reflection I realize how idiotic I came across! Just having a real tough time coming to terms with how naive I've been all my life .. mother's compulsive obsessive christian influence and it's impact. M&K .. was the way I escaped I guess only to find I've had my intelligence insulted and been taken advantage of in the cruelest way all over again. It hurts! Can you understand that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 10:31:13 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: John SA Subject: I went to a video last night Message: I wasn't intending to insult your intelligence but the way you posted. It was hard to understand you and whether you were really trying to say something, or just tear strips off someone else. If I was nasty then I apologise. Please say whatever you like here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 12:01:27 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: John SA Subject: Can you understand that? Message: YUP!!!!! Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 00:51:24 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: John SA Subject: Almost clever retorts... Message: I know you think those were cute rebuttals, but really they were not too well thought out. For example on number 2, you are telling me that it isn't so bad to meditate. I already said that I could go inside if I want to. So your answer makes no sense. I don't have to meditate for a strict hour each day or any other regimine that someone puts me on, though. 'It doesn't feel so bad'-WOW! THERE'S a powerful endorsement for knowledge-not. What book would you be talking about in number one? And what was that crack about the 'resurrection' in number 4?? Budda? Krishna? Jesus? If you are trying to be funny, I think you are in a room laughing alone. On number 7, John, you said, 'Stay out of others' buisness then'. If you want to pay your money and run around the world, go for it! I never said you couldn't, did I? I was responding to a question on why I didn't want to follow M, I am not telling you you shouldn't. Knock yourself out. Literally. To respond to your question in number 6, I give the reigns to MYSELF! If you had been listening to what I was saying, you would know this and would not have asked. SHEESH! To answer your last question, I do nobody's dirty work but MY OWN! And sometimes I hopefully do God's- not M, but the real God! Didn't you get the point of my post? What made you so upset that you had to respond to me in that manner? A little jealous of my proclamations? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 13:57:55 (EST)
From: John SA Email: None To: VP Subject: Almost clever retorts... Message: VP thanks for your 'almost' vote of confidence. My rebuttles were entirely impulsive, badly thought-out and as Jude appropriately pointed out that entering a conversation in that obnoxious way is apt to meet with being ignored. Suffice it to say that my head is spinning between fact and fiction at a rate that I've never been aware of before, since finding The Forum, and thank you both for not ignoring me. I think what got to me was you alluding to THE 'Real' God ?? A little jealous of your 'proclaimation'? No VP - really, but curious about what you might think you know that I (as a real live (EX?) premie) don't. I'm hurt and confused as hell about coming to terms with that I may have been betrayed for 27 years. Not being patronising. This is for real. John SA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 14:16:24 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: John SA Subject: Almost clever retorts... Message: Dear John, I am so sorry Iwas rude to you and used a put-down kind of tone. I was in a mood, and don't like the way I spoke to you. I am so glad you are here. I am sure VP will we delighted to have the discussion with you about his post. Welcome here, finding thsi Forum about a month ago had the same profound effect on me as it obviously has had on you. It is hard to post that first time, isn't it? I think Richard has made a very good point today, saying the prerequisite for being here (and getting something out of it, anyway!) is honesty. Many people here are trying to be real, even if it means risking exposing their vulnerability, which is why I jumped on you, because VP was responding to such a person....so don't be afraid to share what you like about how you feel about M, Knowledge and your life now...I'm sure the others agree that is why we are all here! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 08:30:54 (EST)
From: John SA Email: molode@mweb.co.za To: Jude Subject: Almost clever retorts... Message: Jude Thanks for your post - I guess I'm only experiencing the knee-jerk thing now and that worse is to come before real healing even kicks in .. all part of the process hey? Scary stuff, but I'll make peace with my demons too, as you seem to be doing, very well! Thanks again. John SA. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 18:42:51 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: John SA Subject: John from South Africa Message: Dear John, I thought you had a cool link to email you without seeing your address but when I wrote and went to send it it didn't work. I don't know if that link was just a joke or what but the only point I had other than raving about your link is that I hope you get what you need in the way of support here. I've been away from a computer for a few days and am still catching up. I don't have a sense of you but see you looking for answers and support. There are many people here with smarts in many areas and LOTS of support. Good luck. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 07:29:45 (EST)
From: John SA Email: molode@mweb.co.za To: Robyn Subject: John from South Africa Message: Robyn. I coudn't work out what you were on about in the first part of your post - and then 'I saw the light'!! God I'm a fool. 'molode' is shortened form of The Mother Lode - Film Locations Co., so you know, and the 'mweb' is no joke - flippin' ironic though and very funny considering the permutations. Thanks for responding - I feel comfortable that I WILL find a lot of the help I realise I'm going to need, here on The Forum. John SA. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 16:11:47 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: VP Subject: Almost clever retorts... Message: VP, you portray yourself as a free-willed individualist who sets their own rules, and answers to no one but their own higher self. A model of secular humanism, not to mention the stuff of John Wayne movies. You're a free man, the kind that men admire and women crave to know. The kind of man by whom horses long to be ridden, and Marlboro's long to be smoked. Truely a model man! (Okay I'm laying it on a little thick... forgive me.) But can I ask you a question... and I mean no disrespect. How do you know the difference between God's work and your own? Once knowing the difference (asuming you do), how do you manage your time... 50% God's work/50% yours, or some other ratio? BTW, blatently violate anybody's truth, and you will upset them, no matter how righteous you believe you are in your condemnation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 19:54:49 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: A pattern, Jack? Message: VP, you portray yourself as a free-willed individualist who sets their own rules, and answers to no one but their own higher self. A model of secular humanism, not to mention the stuff of John Wayne movies. You're a free man, the kind that men admire and women crave to know. The kind of man by whom horses long to be ridden, and Marlboro's long to be smoked. Truely a model man! (Okay I'm laying it on a little thick... forgive me.) Jack, why do you keep doing this? Focusing on the personalities of people who post here, I mean? What's your point? It does seem that you're persistently trying to divert attention away from Maharaji and onto his critics. Jack, we're not that interesting! I mean, none of us have ever claimed to be God, for example. None of us have ever gotten thousands of people to try to surrender to us. Know what I mean? By the way, you never responded to my last post to you about the possible implications of aavoiding a simple question. Should I consider that discussion over? Don't want to discuss it? But you're sure happy asking other people questions, aren't you? Here, you ask VP: But can I ask you a question... and I mean no disrespect. How do you know the difference between God's work and your own? Once knowing the difference (asuming you do), how do you manage your time... 50% God's work/50% yours, or some other ratio? I know the question wasn't mine but Jack, I have to ask you, what in the world are you talking about? I don't think its possible to actually make sense of your words here, although VP might take a stab at it nonetheless. Care to rephrase it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 15:06:27 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Nigel Subject: copulation Message: That I take as a joke for 'propagation' which has has a meaning similar to 'go forth and mutiply'. carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 18:27:19 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Nigel Subject: I went to a video last night Message: Dear Nigel, I noticed the same thing and was so disapointed, no juicy parts apparently! Darn! Apparently it was a typo. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 12:34:18 (EST)
From: Bruce Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net.au To: Memphis Belle Subject: To Memphis Belle Message: Dear Memphis Belle, Hi. I'm replying to you here as your post to me is about to go over the horizon. You said Bruce, I am very new to K and I am on the edge of leaving M. I am leaving for the following reason: TOO MUCH PRESSURE to achieve this 'experience of a power emanating from M' I have not felt what you have felt because I cannot connect. Whenever I practice, and I do practice every night, nothing comes. When I pray, EVERYTHING COMES. I still go to see M, in hopes that something will change in me, but I am getting tired of fighting all my doubts. Very tired. MB, I can't presume to know why it is that you feel that you don't connect when you try to practice. What I can say is that often people (myself included) simply try too hard or have expectations based on what someone else has told them they should experience. This creates a block to simply enjoying what is there and appreciating what we do experience. I have had K. for 25 years and during that time I have seen M. many times in many circumstances. Sometimes he has seemed like an ordinary person. Mostly his presence magnifies as I listen to and /or watch him. Sometimes, his presence has taken me into a profound and awesome experience. I have also had many doubts and at one time I guess it was around the time M. started changing a lot of the external aspects I really began to think maybe he had gone off the rails or something. I live in Australia, and I hadn't seen him for quite some time. One time he came, and I didn't go to see him. The next time, I decided that I would see once and for all if my doubts were well founded. I am very glad I made the effort to go to see him. My doubts were blown away at that event. Since then I have made a point of seeing him as much as possible, as I recognised the value of this. So I'd advise you to go see him in Long Beach, and Denver too. Seattle isn't so far is it? But don't go along as a critic, scrutinising his every word. You will miss the point completely. M real message is for your heart. Just go there,listen, enjoy. If you are offered a seat close to him ,take it! I read where some ex's were going to go but sit as far away as possible. If you want to convince yourself that M. is a fake I suppose that would be one way of doing it. Such a shame to do that. M. used to tell this story of the salt and sugar ants. The salt ant went to the hill of sugar but took some salt in his mouth, just in case. Needless to say, he didn,t get to taste the sugar too well! Another way to increase your problem with doubts is to read all this expremie stuff. Its all designed to do just that. Increase your doubts. So, maybe you're not asking for my advice but here it is anyway, out of kindness. Firstly give yourself a break from this forum.This will give you some space from the propaganda here and enable you to be yourself more. Secondly, try practicing without worrying about connecting to anything. Thirdly, go see M. and really have a good time! Regards, Bruce Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 15:20:36 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Bruce Subject: To Memphis Belle Message: Bruce said,'Another way to increase your problem with doubts is to read all this expremie stuff. Its all designed to do just that. Increase your doubts.' 'It's all designed' by who??? Some of us agree, there may well be the hand of God in this site and the increase in doubts about things which we ought to doubt and have become courageous enough to apply both a critical review and a most sincere and heartfelt re-evaluation to issues that have need to be addressed!!!!Just say KNOW! Where Knowledge Has Lead Us.... Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 17:28:30 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: carol Subject: To Memphis Belle Message: Memphis Belle: I would, having increased my doubts as much as I have been able to by reading and reading here recommend to you that you do the same. Go the journeys area and read there for an hour or so. I just went over to write in my dream journal even though I felt doing so was rebellious and likely to leave me on the short end of the stick again spiritually since I had taken this recent influx of feeling to be the work of Guru Maharaj Ji and he had said many years ago that he thought the dreaming we do while sleeping was an awful and damaging experience. But as I did my writing I began to realize that I was not always such a sycophant nor a directionless sybarite. I was working in every way I knew or did not know in an effort to find enlightment. I had discovered what I later came to find was dream yoga on my own and I was making progress. I had by my own effort made progress in listening to the voice within me to the extent that I could go to it to find out what was best for me to do under the current circumstances. And I was learning to count on myself as an actor in the realm of the spirit when a guy came to do prachar in our group house and convinced Karen with his lovely lady's man ways to come to satsang. I told him that I was not interested and had the audacity to further proclaim that I was a guru myself. Karen came back with glowing reports and out of respect for her I went. To make a long story shorter I went to satsang, I was initiated, and I threw everything I, as a mere human being, had learned up to then on the trash heap of shallow nonsense and went off to be a devotee. So, back to today and this little awakening from the idea that I can't take responsibility for my own growth or awareness and the revisionist memory that I never did to seeing that I did and I can again. I'm not saying to toss the experience of knowledge or prayer, in your case, on that trash heap but to take it along with all that you have and go on with your own way. I left college because of how awestruck I was with Knowledge and GMJ. And over the years left a lot else or never gave serious consideration where serious consideration was due. Here and aside: as for being carried over the ocean of samsara give serious consideration to the Madhyamika and Tantric doctrine of the perfect identity of samsara and nirvana. Thus: crossing over? who is crossing over what? There is an amusing story about this in a recent issue of Yoga Journal. A prince is purported to have found samadhi and spends a lot of time there; that is, he spends a lot of time with his eyes closed meditating. Finally his wife, a tantric adept, says to him, 'What kind of bliss is this that it disappears as soon as you open your eyes?' I know I do not have the quote exact but very close. And I can say now, without hesitation, that this is what I want: I want to be awakened eyes open walking down the street all the time unbeholden to any other than those whom I see in this state are my true benefactors. Not being there I can indulge in nothing more than supposition concerning that. But I must depend only on my own senses and awareness such as they are. Back to the fact that I had just forgotten that I can take responsibility for it and do my best. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 20:07:20 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: charles Subject: To Memphis Belle Message: Hi How typical of the bigM to say that dreaming is a damaging and negative thing! That is a good one. Being a chronic insomniac, I can testify to how wonderful it is to dream. Try only having that experience once every couple months and you will see the major benefits of dreaming. I don't really suggest this approach, I've heard sleep and dream deprivation can cause psychosis. So can following a cult that's off the wall. 'to sleep, perchance to dream...' Selena , checking in, insomnia for the last 3 nights. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 21:29:08 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Selena Subject: Insomnia Message: Selena: Sorry you've had insomnia. I used to just lay there looking at the cieling, and usually get insomnia when I have something important pending. A friend of mine suggested Benadryl. It's not a sleeping medication, but apparently it makes you drowsy and doesn't have too many side effects. Sort of like a home remedy. I take one every once in awhile. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 23:36:00 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Insomnia Message: Hi Scott Thank you for the Benedryl suggestion. Please don't take offense, but if I had a nickel for everytime I tried benedryl for insomnia! The weird thing is, it used to work but now it makes me wired. ugh!!! The ONLY thing that works is a diazepam derivative, i.e. Xanax, Ativan, Librium, Valium, will never bring you knowledge of the soul... oops, I am wandering. Sadly I have to limit myself to once a week on that stuff, having learned the hard way how damaging the physical addiction can be.But thank you for the kind words. You too Sir Cheddar. Insomnia is nasty. I have resigned myself to accept that I am a wired person and this is my life. BTW, the great 4 techniques never really helped or hurt with this. They were unique unto themselves and not part of the issue. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 00:28:15 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Selena Subject: Insomnia Message: Hi Selena, another hard-core insomniac here. Have done the Benadryl/Xanax route, and am now doing much better with homeopathic stuff, but by far the best thing I have found has been a sleep tape from the Robert Monroe Institute, he's some sort of advanced level hypnotist who works with states of consciousness, and has a CD out which a friend of mine bought for $50 (yow, they really know how desperate we insomniacs are!), and he's taped me several segments, and the 45-minute one which puts you off to sleep has worked for me every time, almost without fail. You put the tape in your Walkman, or if you have a CD walkman, even better, and still have to deal with headphones and then taking them off afterwards, but I swear this is better than any drug, including Melatonin. E-mail me if you'd like more info on this and I can find out where to get the CD. Oddly enough, I never once had insomnia the entire 9 years I was in the ashram, and I do mean not once. Maybe meditation had a good affect or something, or perhaps I was just too pooped from seven days a week, nine years straight of service to bother with insomnia. At least that's one good experience I had with K, though somehow don't think it'd work at this point. But I definitely don't recommend ashram living as a cure for insomnia. --Joy (Sleepless in Seattle) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 01:12:13 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Selena Subject: Insomnia Message: Selena - I'm not an chronic insomniac, but I tend to get really hyper and wired and anxious, thus cannot get to sleep at times. I have had best results (besides with presciption drugs like Klonopin, which I know you don't want to take) with either a standardized valerian extract or a melatonin/valerian/passionflower combination, which is herbal, not homeopathic. I can tell you where to get either if you are interested. By the way, the knowledge techniques never helped me with this either... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 01:09:07 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Selena Subject: Insomnia Message: Selena: I have heard that eating a big fat dollop of peanut better, or a draft of heated orange juice, helps too. Can't remember why, but they both give me reflux. I HATE that. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 22:32:35 (EST)
From: Cheddar dreams Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Selena Subject: Dream a little dream on me Message: If Maharaji really said that about dreaming then he really is becoming more inhuman than ever. His attempt at mind control is getting ridiculous. Dreaming is one of the most important things we can do in life. If we didn't dream then we would go mad in a few weeks. The same goes for daydreams and fantasies. They are essensial to our mental health and enable us to visualise goals and subconsciously work towards them. Really, if Maharaji is spouting this sort of nonsense then he can't expect to keep any followers, save the totally gullable people with very low self confidence and low self esteem. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 23:53:08 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Selena and Cheddar Subject: Dream a little dream on me Message: Maharaj Ji said that a long time ago. I bought it though I was truly puzzled. I mean I was accepting everything and spent only a shaking finger of discipline for my own feelings or tendencies. And daydreams! Daydreams of the kind I found most attractive were only for the truly depraved or weak and suppressing them has only made them just the more twisted. Selena: In recent years as my sleep was more and more frequently interrupted I tried all kinds of things except what I could ingest. Eventually I learned about melatonin and used it for awhile and it worked quite well. It sounds like your condition is more intense than mine which was just the awake at three am thing and then awake for hours but if you haven't tried it it has no noticeable side effects. You know, I started the dream log as part of work in witchcraft or magic. It was the first real attempt on my part to take control. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 02:52:12 (EST)
From: Carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: Selena Subject: sleep Message: Selena, I know a bit about sleep disorders (I have one that is treated)If you want to talk about it,e-mail me! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 03:09:21 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Selena Subject: sleep disorder Message: Since everyone else got specific here, I will too. I had sleep that was frequently interrupted and not restorative for several years...in other words: I woke feeling like I hadn't slept and I was tired and achy all the time. I also had muscle aches and flu-like aches and my minor muscle injuries took a long time to heal. I was diagnosed finally with fibromyalgia. I was given various anti-depressants for their sedative value because research showed that the sleep disorder that accompanied fibromyalgia could be the cause of the aches. The level of sleep in which body cells repair themselves was inadequate. I take 25 mg of amitryptoline in the evening and I sleep about 7 or 8 hours. I also had less pain. I improved even more, and feel physically and mentally about 'normal' or pretty good most of the time after I started also taking 100mg of desipramine as an anti-depressant. Sleep in all it's stages is necessary for health! Wishing you health! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 06:56:06 (EST)
From: Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Carol Subject: sleep disorder Message: Interesting that you've got fibromyalgia. I too have had this condition for years. I did once take the antidepressant you mentioned but it definitely didn't agree with me. I have the full works; M.E., fibromyalgia, chemical sensitivities and allergies. This means that any drugs can have a devastating effect on me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 23:27:53 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: All who responded! Subject: sleep disorder Message: Thanks so much!! Recently I have also been told about Kava root. it's supposed to be even better than malatonin. I am inspired to start a new search. Can't get any worse, right? It is almost enough to hear from all of you, and know I am not alone. muchas gracias. Can't say enough how much this means. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 02:38:14 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Cheddar Subject: sleep disorder Message: David, What is M.E.? What do you do for your conditions? carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 19:38:01 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Cheddar Subject: sleep disorder Message: Dear Ched, What is M.E.? Thanks, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 02:17:19 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Robyn Subject: sleep disorder Message: Carol and Robyn, M.E.('myalgic encephalomyelitis') is the British term for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (or Chronic Fatigue Immune Dysfunction Syndrome ('CFIDS') as it is more popularly called in the US now). It is similar in a lot of respects to Fibromyalgia, with similar sleep disorders, muscle aches, brain fogs, etc. (I know because I'm diagnosed with both syndromes, also, which may explain why sometimes my posts aren't so clear!). It's no fun, that's for sure. Then when you add MCS ('Multiple Chemical Sensitivity') on top of it, it's even more fun, since you then can't tolerate any of the drugs people often take to relieve the problems of Fibromyalgia and you get to tough it out on your own. Does that answer your questions? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 12:14:46 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Carol Subject: sleep disorder Message: Hi Carol your sleep disorder sounds very much like mine, including the achiness and stuff. Are these things you mentioned , amitryptoline , amino acids? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 14:07:37 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Selena Subject: sleep disorder Message: Amitriptyline (this is the correct spelling) is a tri-cyclic anti-depressant, but is known to have a sedative effect in a smaller dose of 25mg than that used to treat depression. Doxepin is also used as a sedative, and I tried it for awhile. I gained 30 lbs. while on it and it wasn't as effective as amitryptyline, which I took later and now. Searches on the net for fibromyalgia or chronic fatigue syndrome or sleep disorders reveal a lot more info. carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 18:53:49 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Selena Subject: To Memphis Belle Message: Dear Selena, and Charles, I am a strong believer in dreams. I have very powerful, vivid, life like dreams. I am, unfortunately not very good a reading them. Only occasionaly has the meaning been right there apon awakening! Robyn I just had a very strong dream and only remember seeing a very large crow, close up so I could see the muscles in it's leg. I know it meant something!, but what? Jim, don't bother to tell me! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 23:05:00 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Robyn Subject: To Robyn re dreams Message: Since I hardly ever dream I felt compelled to respond. I have had crow dreams. 2 things come to mind: the Movie, The Crow - kind of dark and not for everyone (but I liked it) Also, Edgar Allen Poe's 'The Raven' - same editorial comment. The common theme is that in both the movie and the litany, the birds are both power symbols, and harbingers of messages from beyond = beyond death or, maybe even what I think beyond concious thought. Something is trying to break through, whether from the spirit world or from something surpressd in the here and now. Just my totally amateur interpretation, based on sleep disorder, not the greatest credentials! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 08:04:07 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Selena Subject: To Robyn re dreams Message: I had one dream of M. It was about nine months ago. He came and sat beside me on a hillside. He had dirty feet. They were bare. I felt he was letting me know I was known to him; not more special than others; but special (loved). That must have been what I wanted to feel so much. Later I felt the dirty feet were showing how hard he was working in this world to spread knowledge. How tough the road has been. When my father died I dreamt I saw him in a pub with his best friend (also deceased). He was happy. It was just the kind of place he was always happy in! It's funny how the mind works. Sweet dreams!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:11:32 (EST)
From: Larkin Email: larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Everyone Subject: happy day Message: A cross that's drawn from Cork to Carrickfergus From Wicklow to the hills of Donegal A cross once raised in memory of the fallen Now placed beside a choice to end it all. Three fingers take the pen and mark the paper Two fingers raised in peace and victory For love and life and reconciliation One finger marks the men of history, Who, till the end, still chanting 'no sorrendur!' But cannot now deny their end has come Who felt no pain, so will not now be joyful; One finger spells it clearly: 'Up yer bum!' Good Proddies and good Papists still a-prayin' Just like they've prayed these last four hundred years Might thank themselves their prayers have now been answered For me and you it's hope of no more tears. As laughter fills the heavens and the taverns And - while they play on fallen barricades - Please let this be a lesson for our children That peace - like war - will always be man-made. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 12:44:42 (EST)
From: seymour Email: None To: Larkin Subject: happy day Message: Wonderful!!! and about something, dare I say it, even more important than Elan Vital and all the shennanigins that we have all been through - whether into K. or out of it. Lets hope peace will at last reign. Hello to all who have communicated with me in the past. I have been off line for quite a while and have yet to catch up with what's been going on. Glad to see it's all still happening. I will try and post an epistle in the coming week. Cheers y'all Seymour Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 13:18:49 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net To: seymour Subject: Wotcha Seymour Message: Wotcha Seymour! I have been wondering where you were, and am glad that you're still around. I also thought Larkin's poem was very powerful and have printed out copies to share with people. Hope to hear from you soon. Regards from Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:07:40 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Everyone Subject: About Bobby Message: I thought for a while before making this post, but then decided that it might be a good thing. Bobby, who is an ex-premie, and who a lot of us know, is very ill. He has cancer in his neck and throat, and it's in a fairly advanced stage. (He posted about this below, but it was in a long and convoluted thread, so many people might not have seen it.) Anyway, he could use prayers, good wishes, and loving and/or friendly thoughts from all of us. His e-mail is bobby2@mindspring.com, should anyone want to contact him. (Hope you don't mind me posting this, Bobby!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 23:29:06 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: About Bobby Message: Bobby, If you see this post, I wish you the strength that you need for your fight. Someone in my family had cancer 27 years ago- advanced breast cancer which was in an invasive stage. It was long before the prognosis for that type was very good. She went under the knife for an exploratory look-see and woke up with a radical double masectomy. She had chemo and radiation. She is alive and cancer free today, even though the docs didn't give her any hope at that time. I will be thinking about you, Bobby. Sending you prayers and hope, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 02:05:45 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hang in there, slugger Message: Bobby, The arguments we've had should serve as precursors to the time when much is reconciled and most is forgotten and/or forgiven. I'm really sorry to hear that you're sick. Really. I just finished reading the Time article about current cancer treatment, how fast medical science is making inroads to a cure. In fact, for the first time, they're actually starting to use that word. It's an exciting time in the field, if you can call anything so serious 'exciting'. My guess is that you're going to look in several directions for help. I just wish you the best of luck. I guess I want you to stick around if, for no other reason, so I can have someone to argue about spirituality/rationality with twenty years from now when we start to approach middle age. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 10:26:50 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Bobby Subject: In my thoughts, Bobby Message: Bobby; last year I was diagnosed as having thyroid cancer and I can understand to some extent how you must be feeling. I had a lobectomy and they removed half my thyroid gland in an operation lasting two and a half hours. After this they discovered that the nodule was not actually cancerous and I had been misdiagnosed. Still, I'm familiar now with all the cancer possibilities in that area. I presume you'll be having surgery soon. I'm not sure of exactly what type of cancer you have but I know that with thyroid cancer or even cancer of the larynx, they can cut it out and people can live a normal life afterwards provided they get the routine check-ups and take the necessary anti cancer drugs. I'm sure you'll have been made aware of all the possibilities and ways they can help you. If you're having surgery, don't worry. I was petrified with fear when they wheeled me down to the operating theatre. But they gave me a nice injection of valium which made me feel pretty cool and then they shot me with something else and the next thing I knew I was waking up in recovery, chatting up the nurses there without a care in the world! Keep us informed won't you, of how things are going. My best wishes to you and your family. David. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 11:24:10 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Bobby Subject: You Message: Hey Bobby, Please excuse the familiarity from someone you don't know but people here on the forum talk about you so much it's like you're here. Katie wants us all to think about you and pray for you so I think about you, if I knew how to pray I'd do that too. Just remember that a whole load of pretty bright and loving people want you to get better as soon as possible, probably so's they can kick your metaphorical ass again. Get well soon Bobby. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:17:35 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Everyone Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: For any who are interested: Here are the nine techniques, as related to me by Mike. Mike was taught these by Mahatma Satyanand, who was a follower of Shri Hans who went back to India with Mata Ji and Bal Baghwan Ji after the split. I take full responsibility for posting them on this forum. BTW, VP, I got it wrong - there weren't two nectar techniques. Also, to understand the word techniques, you should know that most of us, when receiving knowledge, were taught to meditate on the word SO (inhale) HUM (exhale) for the 'Word' meditation (a.k.a. Technique number 3). The Nine Techniques of Brahmanand Maharaj are: 1. Kurim Nadi Dyana - Suspended Animation Meditation which is also known as Suspending the Gunas Meditation 2. Spanda Yoga Dyana - Music 3. Trataka Yoga Dyana - Light 4. Maha Devaya Sat Nam Dyana - Innocent Breath Word 5. Saraswati Sat Nam Dyana - Creator Breath Word 6. Lakshmi Sat Nam Dyana - Sustainer Breath Word 7. Mahakali Sat Nam Dyana - Changer/Destroyer Breath Word 8. Mahamaya Sat Nam Dyana - Transcender Breath Word 9. Har Ras Dyana - Also known as Amirta or Nectar To get lost in the Word and roam the worlds of Word: You inhale and exhale as though you are breathing through your third eye. The third eye is at the top of the nose, between the eyebrows and about an inch into the forehead. The mind will move about so we allow it to roam the other sounds of SOHUM. The creator/creatrix breath word is the 'S' of SO and the 'H' of HUM. The Preserver breath word is the 'H' and 'M' of HUM (i.e., the top and bottom of the breath cycle). The Changer/Destroyer is where you move the tongue to the middle of the upper palate and the breath word is SA on inhale and HA on exhale. The transcender breath sound is where you roll the tongue back to just touching the uvulia and the breath sound is SO HUM. The Innocent Breath Sound you know [it's the 'O' of SO and the 'M' of HUM.] I move through the breath words each for about 15 minutes or more per sitting however, there's no fixed length of meditation. When you practice the 'O' of So and 'M' of hum... you must relax into it (e.g., relax the throat) put the tongue only touching the upper palate behind the teeth (the tongue has different positions for each technique of knowledge) and focus on the third eye for all of the words that make up the Word. With all of the techniques together you can easily sit for 2 or more hours per sitting... it's up to you. The idea in mind is that you experience each of these parts of the Word and see how these different parts of Word relate to your life. These breath Words are each of the Shaktis or energies and are female in polarity to the body. The Music, Light and Nectar are male in polarity to the body. With each Word, you are dealing with the divine aspect of that word as it relates to your life (i.e., your innocent, creative, sustaining, destroying/changing and transcending natures or different faces of God/Godess as they play with you as you). There's so much to tell you about these worlds of breath Words which make up the experience of the Holy Name. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:38:40 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: The Nine Techniques (addendum) Message: I had already posted the following below - it is more information on the various breath techniques. I thought I should put it together with the information above (especially since it was so fragmented in the archives.) Dr Mike said: There are several ways to pronounce things... we can speak things aloud with our voice, we can hum things in our throat, we can mentally speak and repeat things, and we can pronounce things with our breath. There are five distinct sounds that our breath makes which produce the five distinct states of being which constitute the complete cycle of our being: Creating, Sustaining, Changing/Destroying, Transendence and Innocence. This also means that our minds will also take the shape of the state of being we're focusing on and producing as well. The mind will focus on anything we direct it to, and will remain there with a bit of gentle guidance until we develop the habit of focusing on our object of meditation. The more we gently focus on our object of meditation... the more absorbed we become in that object... until I and that... like the salt doll walking into the ocean... melt and become one. The original sound of the breath, produces the Innocence State which is our natural blameless state or the state that the source of universal love (SOUL) always returns to from lifetime to lifetime. The Sat Purusha or True Being neither creates, sustains, destroys or transcends however, without Innocence, none of the other four would exist. And the Sat Purusha always exists in an Innocent and Blameless state. The experience of pronouncing is performed by focusing on specific parts of the sound that the breath makes as though we were actually pronouncing it via the power of our breath. For example: when we speak we can open our mouth and exhale and shape our vocal cords and make sounds... the only difference is... we won't be using our vocal cords to make the sounds. For that matter..., we won't use our minds either to pronounce... only to focus on what is being pronounced and we'll shift our intention of pronounciation to our breath to speak one of the five sounds that breath makes. This will produce one of the five states that we choose to experience the Paramahansa (i.e., The Creator/Creatrix, Sustainer, Destroyer, Transcender or The Innocent). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:47:19 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Katie Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: Hi Katie, You claim to be 'responsible' for this thread. I would call it highly irresponsible . Have you paused for one second to consider the confusion that many poor truth-seeking premies might be thrown into by such a disclosure? Shame on you! btw, wonderful post - got any more? :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:51:37 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Nigel Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: Hi Nigel - I am still looking...there might be more, but it is fragmented. The reason I say that I take total responsiblity for it is because I didn't get permission from Mike to repost it on here. By the way, the whole concept of the nine techniques blew me away when I first heard about it from Mike! For one thing, it made me realize that SOMEONE had 'packaged' the techniques for us westerners. For another, it made me realize that my solemn vow NOT to reveal the techniques was total B.S. Glad you enjoyed it! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 19:15:48 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie, off topic Message: Katie: Got the LOTU video today. Thanks. Will have to swipe my roommate's VCR. Also, they moved the seminar up to June 8. Not sure you heard that. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:50:15 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Katie, off topic Message: You're welcome, Scott. Will be thinking about you on June 8th! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:30:53 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie, off topic Message: Katie: Have just been watching the video. If this is a documentary it is very subtle. Up until the press conference it could have been a DLM film. It is actually very cleverly done. You have these guys talking about Millennium as though it's the culmination of human history, and then you have this subtle shot of empty seats. You know, I never realized how much the youngest resembles Mata Ji. Rennie Davis' observation that the 'Master Bedroom' in the Astrodome suite must have been meant for MJ seems especially insightful. Except that my mother and father always slept in a master bedroom. I'm sure it's an omen. Hey... maybe I'm Lord of the Universe! -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:55:36 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Katie Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: I naturally do the 'O' of so and 'M' of hum but without the thought of sounds or letters! I was given a review in India in 1972 in which it was taught 'so hung'. The first of many variations of knowledge techniques and one of the reasons I chose to use what worked best for me, and which I experienced before having knowledge 'revealed'! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:34:08 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Carol/Katie Subject: So Hung Message: Carol, We had a funny thread once about the words 'so hung'-how they have another meaning... Katie, Thanks for posting that for us. My mind is blown to think that the one thing that I thought that I couldn't live without was just the cliff notes. BTW-I do not want a redneck baragon. I want an old original one, so that when the Antiques Road Show is in town, I can take it in. Can't you just SEE those experts trying to figure out what that could be? Hee hee! VP Just had a pina colada with some friends Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:43:55 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: So Hung Message: VP: I actually made a baragon with an adjustable leg one, by channeling a larger piece of wood and then inserting a smaller one with a carriage bolt and thumb screw. The leg was inspired by a 'French Box Easel.' I beg to differ with father Mike about whether K is in the bible. The origin of the 'so hung' technique obviously comes from Judas Iscariot. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 23:07:17 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: So Hung Message: Good one Scott!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:44:57 (EST)
From: Lazy Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Katie Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: Interesting but not my cup of tea, It's too Hindu for me. I actually think that the way the knowledge has been packaged by Maharaji or by his mahatmas is much simpler and better. Could anyone really do all those different breaths? I just meditate on my breath, the sound and flow of it. I can't be bothered to make words out of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 23:13:45 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Lazy Cheddar Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: You westerner, you. I'll bet you aren't really aged cheese, just cheese puffs or something. Seriously though, if you were a poor Indian devotee with no food and nothing better to do all day, those nine might look pretty good. We westerners want it all and quickly, too. No really seriously this time, I agree with you completely. In the LOTU video this ex-premie demonstrating the techniques for the camera made a kind of hat with his fingers over his head on the music technique. I never do that! It looked so weird. Did you learn it that way? VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 01:18:00 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP and David Cheesehead Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: The way I learned it, all you have to do for the music technique is to plug your ears up with your thumbs. The 'hat' technique (I just tried it) seems like a good solution of what to do with those extra fingers. A lot of us used earplugs (Michael spoke about this last night) instead of actually plugging our ears with our thumbs. Some people considered that to be an inferior way to meditate, though. I should mention that I never heard music while practicing M's 'music' technique. I DID hear music while using psychedelic drugs, though. It was a single flute or recorder, and it was very clear. I heard it in my left ear, which may disqualify it as actual divine music. BTW, David, I really liked Dr. Mike's interpretation of the 'innocent' breath technique (O...M). I was actually able to meditate using that - for the first time in many years. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 07:47:18 (EST)
From: Mature Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Katie Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: I guess I'm not so innocent. I prefer to think of the breath as like the sound of the sea and away from Hindu names of God. Whatever you like doing. One thing in Maharaji's favour is that he dispensed with the Hindu 'name' and just told people to focus on the breath, period. I say this because I met so many premies in the seventies who were totally confused by the so hung thing, like they believed that that was the name of God that couldn't be spoken etc etc. But then we are all different and perhaps some people like to give the breath a name. The music hat amused me VP. For me, the best way I've found to plug my ears is to just push the little ear flaps at the side in. That's it. I found the 'new' technique very uncomfortable. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 08:56:05 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Mature Cheddar Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: For me, the best way I've found to plug my ears is to just push the little ear flaps at the side in. That's it. I found the 'new' technique very uncomfortable. Wow, when I did that I do hear a sound like the sea! I hear my own blood rushing. How interesting, nothing like doing it the other way. I think I'm actually learning a lot more about 'meditation' as such, by the way, including the knowledge techniques, here than I did with M. Isn't that funny and strange. I have decided to go into a state of not-knowing a bit more (even though I seem to be getting a bit nasty with some people posting here). I still want to learn and know more. It's interesting to watch swings between total logic, child-like faith or belief in mysteries and magic, and mature reasoning that there is something to be learned from all of this ,and here, and I am determined to make the most of it. I no longer feel angry with Maharaji, either. I was just thinking, it's like now I don't see him as 'the perfect master' I have no argument with him either way. He can go his way and I can go mine, I am free. I was having a quick squiz at some archives - it's humbling actually because I see it's all been said before - anyway Cheddar did you used to post as Davd f? I read some good material from him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 10:07:32 (EST)
From: Not so good Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jude Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: No that wasn't me Jude. David F is another David. That's why I use the Sir David and the cheesy identity, so people don't mix up the Davids. There are about three Davids on this forum: D@vid, who used to run the website; David F and then there's me. Glad you're getting those feelings about everything. If M has no hold on you and you see him for what he is then there's no need to see him as important. Some people here though do harbour some resentment because of the way in which he deceived us. But that's just a personal thing. On the plus side, I do think that the Knowledge package is very good and the best form of meditation that I know of. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 00:14:57 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Mature Cheddar/Jude Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: David, Ouch! I just tried to close the cartiledge, but it hurts and the sound isn't as loud as it is if I just take the thumbs and gently block the opening to the ears with them. I don't stick them in the ears, as I get not sound that way. I forgot to mention that the pinkie fingers were resting on the eyes in the LOTU video and the other ones were making a hat on top of the head/ forehead. Bizarre. Jude, It does sound like the sea-only loud and then like the blood pulsing-all fluidy. If you listen long enough you begin to hear other sounds, too, like birds, flutes, etc. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 14:08:19 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Katie Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: Hi, My thumbs or hands were always falling asleep so I either used earplugs or nothing. I'm mostly deaf in my right ear so I hear 'music' in it most of the time. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 11:01:16 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Lazy Cheddar Subject: The Nine Techniques Message: Lazy: Some of us are not so much lazy as bored. I happen to thrive on complication, and have never had a very good HN meditation. Maybe these techniques will help. Now, if I could just figure out a way to use it to increase intelligence, or virility... -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |