Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 9 | |
From: May 21, 1998 |
To: Jun 1, 1998 |
Page: 4 Of: 5 |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 15:54:44 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Alistair, Jack and Mark T. Message: After being away a few days, I was particularly interested to read Jack's comments on Alistair, whom we both knew in Calgary and who killed himself sometime in the early 80s. Jack dismissed Alistair as someone with a history of depression who 'just didn't want to be happy'. He even claims that his mother, Cathy (also a premie), gave Maharaji credit for possibly keeping Alistair alive longer than he might have stayed had he faced the world on his own. Let's assume -- just for a moment -- that Jack's right about Alistair being chronically depressed, even suicidal. That wouldn't be all that unusual, would it? Let's also say that he just couldn't handle the intensity of Maharaji's path. That wouldn't be so strange either, would it? Lots of people wre overwhelmed by the propsect of 'surrender'. Lots of people didn't want to devote their 'lives' to Maharaji whoever he was. Lots of people simply couldn't handle the extreme demands of a guru trying to 'free us' from our minds. So didn't Maharaji know that? Say you've got a drug that's going to give immense pleasure to 85% or even 95% of anyone who tries it but will screw up about the rest and may even push one or two per cent over the edge. Do you just give it out indiscriminately and hope for the best? What about the casualties? Do you ignore them? Dismiss them as people who just weren't ready for so much bliss? Maharaji knew damn well that he was exerting a lot of pressure on people. Some of us were game for it and actually liked it intense. Like Maharaji';s pinata satsang, where he talks about swacking the mind hard like a fly, we were up for the heaviest satsang he could throw at us. So long as we meditated a tthe time and considered the barrage directed at 'Mr. Mind', not ourselves, we could actually, perversely thrive in the explosion and the fallout. But, as we all know, it wasn't quite so simple for everyone. What about them? The funny thing is that Maharaji might have a better time defending himself if he'd stayed the course on the 'surrender' trip than now. Had he done that, he could at least try to get away with saying that that's just the nature of human life, it is intense, he didn'w write the script (even though, as God, he did of course, but that just complicates things). In that case, Alistair, Dave and all the rest could be awarded some sort of post-humous purple hearts, good soldiers fallen in a holy fight and all. Like good Iranian teenage soldiers, shipped back from the Iraqui front in coffins. At least their mothers got appliances. But Maharaji didn't do that. Instead, he's slowly released some of the restrictions and allowed guys like Jack here to explain it all away as some poor unstable sucker's sorry misinterpretation of Maharaji's 'instruction' (agya, what's THAT?). Who'll be surprised if Jack next claims that Maharaji nefver really said 'surrender the reigns of your life to me' but rather 'lend me your car for the weekend'? So Maharaji never took the responsibility because as he tacityl admits now that level of intensity wasn't quite necessary. Oh well, live and learn, huh? But now I have to address this question of Alistair's stability in the first place. I'll start by saying that I think it's fair to say taht neither Jack nor I knew Al all that well. He hung out mainly with Mike Smith (who's also in Victoria). The two of them lived in Al's trailer for a while and were into long, long meditations, not working so much, just really trying to get somewhere in Knowledge. (Remember what that was like? Remember when Maharaji still presented it as a path?). Al was a really nice, really mellow guy. It's a complete disgrace that Jack would just dismiss him as someone who didn't want to enjoy himself. Indeed, he wanted nothing but that. His only problem was that he took Maharaji at his word and believed that worldly pursuits were illusory. Why bother working too hard or pursuing a career when the secret of all bliss was waiting right in your heart a la Krishna, Kabir or, now especially, Maharaji himself? I remember Al and a few premies staying at my place in L.A. in the early 80s. He was, as always, just a really nice guy. Contrary to Jack's suggestion, he smiled a lot, enjoyed good jokes and was a pleasure to be with. That was the last time I saw him. Just this morning I spoke with another ex from Calgary who told me that he spoke with Al's mother, Cathy, just a few weeks ago and she definitely holds Maharaji responsible to some extent for her son's death. Now that's not to say that Al didn't suffer from chronic depression, it's more a matter of making the point that normally, that isn't enough to kill people. Mixed with Maharaji's surrender program, it seems to be more than enough. __________________________________________________________________ On that point, I weant to mention that this guy I was talking to, Mark, has really gone through the ringer with Maharaji. Mark believes that Knowledge is 'real' in the sense that it's a true force of some kind, but it's a diabolical one. At one point, apparently, when Maharaji was in Calgary in 1985, Mark stood up at the program and asked Maharaji if he was aware that some followers were having a negative experience of Knowldge. Maharaji asked what he meant. Mark started talking about what he thought was a force in Knowledge trying to control him. He said that he thought the premies were flirting with dangerous forces. Maharaji, Mark tells me, just laughed him off, 'dark forces?' smirking to the crowd, and then, of course, they took the mike away from him. Everyone just laughed. Of course Jack remembers this; he directed that by no means was Mark even allowed into the hall (Mark got in despite this) and, when Mark got the mike, Jack came up and 'sat beside him'. A couple more things from Mark, by the way. Once, when things were really bad for him, he scraped his face into a bloody mess with his fingernails. Then he took his own picture like that and sent it to Maharaji begging for soem answers. Unanswered. (Mark's doing a LOT better now, I think. I talk with him now and then, he's turned on to the page. I've got his full support for mentioning him here and, when he finds a way, he'll pipe here on his own. Meanwhile, like I say, he's doing better.) Mark also told me that, because he has had such a difficult time with knowledge, he's spent a lot of time looking to post-cult counselling. He spent a few weeks at one retreat run by Margaret Singer and also some time at the Wellspring Institute. Both groups told him that, of all the cults they monitor, Maharaji's has the second-worst record for long-term psychological difficulties for post-membership. The worst, he says, is apprently Sai Baba's devotees. Now I don't know what this means, where they get it from or anything of the sort. Mark commented on how surprised he was that other cults, in some ways much more repressive than Maharaji's (like Scientology, maybe the moonies, some extremely weird fundamentalist chrisian groups) didn't rank worse but the point is, according to these two ex-cult enterprises, they don't. Anyone know anything about any of this? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 21:43:19 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: Alistair, Jack and Mark T. Message: I agree with the final part of your post and see that it certainly could be possible for ex-premies to have long term psychological problems. I have some of these myself which I attibute directly to trying to follow Maharaji for over a decade. Maharaji is insidious. That means he appears quite safe but in actual fact, is a dangerous person to listen to. The heavy satsangs he gave still ring in my ears even after twenty years. One reason why I think he's so dangerous and has had such a devastating effect on so many people is because the 'knowledge' is a fairly natural and normal meditation practise. It is actually a quite well put together package of techniques. I believe the old Indian Mahatmas were responsible for creating this package, together with Maharaji's Father. The mistake people easily make is that they do some meditation and realise the value of the knowledge package and therefore accept Maharaji, lock, stock and barrel. This can really cause terrible conflict and confusion in a person. I say this from experience. Tying the knowledge up with Maharaji is the danger here. The Moonie and Scientologists don't have anything so profound as an inner experience from meditation so it's easy to forget their programming. But we felt the knowledge deep inside ourselves. It was a profound and pleasant experience for many of us. And then the supposed giver of this knowledge is yelling at us to surrender ourselves to him. WHat do we do? What is the truth? Perhaps Maharaji knows what he's talking about because the knowledge seems real enough. ANd we are immediately caught up with Maharaji and it can take years before we know what's happened. All of this plus the peer pressure to love Maharaji and you can see why so many of us got confused and still have feelings of guilt and uncertainty. ANd the final card Maharaji has played, is telling us that he is God. Now that's not funny if you take it on board. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:21:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Alistair, Jack and Mark T. Message: David, I just got off the phone with Mike Smith who lived with Al right up to his death. Mike explained that Al had told him that he suffered bouts of depression even before knowledge but then looked to Maharaji as some way out of that. He used to do marathon meditations trying to make the strong bond to 'that place' beyond the mind. I guess most of us don't feel particularly anything much in terms of mental health. We just think, do and function within some realm of normal emotional health. Sure we get stressed, unhappy and depressed, but these emotions pass eventually; we get over things. Maharaji taught us all to 'raise' our standards. That entire world of normal human mentation, he taught us, was a world of suffering. Hell? Look no further. On the other hand, buried within, on the other side of that little pinprick of light, the other side of that slight sound, the other side of your breath (of all things!), there lay waiting true happiness: a world beyond your mind. Someone like Al, who already knew mental suffering, would seize Maharaji's promise with a special desparation. When he finally exhausted himself trying to get 'there' he gave up on everything and killed himself. Now you tell me, who's responsible for that? There are ways and then there are other ways of fucking with people. When Maharaji told Al that the mind was the source of all suffering in life he was simply confimring Al's own sad history, to some extent. The problem is he clearly exacerbated it by demonizing the mind and setting up some loft ideal that no one could ever attain. Most of us could live with the dream itself but some of us, people like Al, really needed to either get 'free' of the mind or seriously understand that that particular answer wasn't really in the cards. Jack, if you're reading this, I'd love to hear how you absolve Maharaji of any responsibility here. By the way, Mark Townsend says hello. (No, that's just a joke. What was that about, anyway, keeping him out of the program?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 14:26:56 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: Alistair, Jack and Mark T. Message: David and Jim, You have both shown and expressed powerful insights into these issues. I think you have really understood the complexity of the nature of hope and desparation in people less able to cope because of mental or emotional differences or traumatic histories. You are a big help to me and others in seeing how the beliefs which were propagated in M's world were harmful to us. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 14:37:09 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Carol Subject: Off topic Message: Hi Carol, We watched 'Shine' last night. It was a wonderful film! Thanks for recommending it. PS How 'bout that Doc? Quite a kidder, huh? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 15:22:44 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Off topic Message: Glad youliked the movie! Is Doc a kidder? An ex-premie in disguise for the purpose of bringing out the great responses? Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 15:49:10 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Carol Subject: Off topic Message: He's probably someone with a vested interest in maintaining this particular guru biz, obviously a surviver, and has learned how to profit from it. I say 'kidder' because, if he's been around this long, he knows the real story. Maybe liar is a better word but then Bruce might get all bent out of shape and we wouldn't want to disturb his 'peace'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 16:41:06 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Hey! Message: What's with this 'off topic' shit? Here I am trying to clear a runway for Jack to home in on and you guys start building a nest or something. What's a matter, don't you think the movie 'Shine' warrants a thread of its own? How 'bout 'Godzilla'? :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 17:03:48 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Jim and Jack Subject: Come back, Jack Message: And respond to this. (I don't mean the movie reviews) Jim, Jeez I shoulda e-mailed Carol, I guess. Sorry for the distraction. It is a powerful post and I hope Jack is gathering his thoughts for a response. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 18:21:10 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: Alistair, Jack and Mark T. Message: Jim the spin-man, you're amazing. You'll try to make hay out of anybody's grief. Cathy told me on a number of occasions that she attributed some degree longevity for Alister to M's influence. As Mike said, Al had problems before hearing about M, and suicide was certainly on his agenda. The fact that, as you point out, he smiled and joked when you and I knew him COULD be viewed as M having a positive influence on him - of course your current view of the world would never let you admit that. I have heard that today Cathy blames M for not saving Alister from killing himself. Reminds me of Patti blaming M for not protecting her when she walked into a dark alley in the scuzy part of town to talk to some guy, who proceeded to beat her almost to death. No Jim, it's not right to blame everybody's tragedy on M. As it's not right absolve everyone who ever followed M of accountability for their own actions. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 18:47:19 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Alistair, Jack and Mark T. Message: Jack, Did you really try to prevent Mark from getting into the program with Maharaji in Calgary in 1985? Did you really run up and sit next to him when he asked Maharaji if he was aware that a lot of premies were having a hard time? As for Alistair, didn't you read what I wrote? (This is getting so tedious, talking with you guys.) Why didn't you comment on my suggestion that Maharaji's vilification of the mind and promise of milk and honey could well have been torturous for someone already prone to depression. You're right, Patti was stupid to blame Maharaji for not protecting her. But tell me, Jack, what message did you derive from the 'Mirabai' story? Remember? Mirabai's besot by her viscious, worldly husband and his banditos who try to pull her sari off, they're so ticked at her devotion to her guru, her Lord. However, so strong is her faith that the Lord himself miraculously extends the fabric forever and saves Mirabai's virtue. (I guess modesty means a little more over there than it might here!) Much like Jesus and the the little loaves and fishies, huh? So, tell me Jack, what was the point of that story? Finally, before we go, should I just drop the 'authoritarian' quote thing? Tell me that you won't answer it and I will. Otherwise -- for one last time -- do you agree that an authority figure who either punishes or refuses to deal with subordinates who won't follow him without question is 'authoritarian'? Yes or no? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 19:51:56 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: Alistair, Jack and Mark T. Message: Jim That event was designed to answer questions from interested people regarding Knowledge. You know as well as I that Mark had some serious psychological problems. His intention was to have M deal with his personal issues at that program, and this was known in advance. Knowing Mark's intention I wanted to talk to him when he arrived but I missed him. As such he did dominate the floor and the event was a waste - for Maharaji, for interested people, even for Mark. When it was appearent he was dominating the floor, I went and sat beside him and asked that he give others a chance. BTW it was Dropadi (sp?) who had the endless saree. I doubt if she followed people into dark allies either. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 20:45:51 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Really? That bad, huh? Message: Knowing Mark's intention I wanted to talk to him when he arrived but I missed him. As such he did dominate the floor and the event was a waste - for Maharaji, for interested people, even for Mark. Boy, Jack, you make it sound like Mark filibustered the gathering or something. Now here's what Mark told me: he said that he got the mike and asked Maharaji that first question, was Maharaji aware that some premies were having a really hard time with Knowledge? Maharaji then asked him something in reply (can't recall just what) and Mark then said that, as far as he was concerned, Knowledge involved certain 'dark forces' and premies, unaware of that, were sometimes getting 'into trouble'. Maharaji, as one would expect, kind of smirked to the crowd, 'Dark forces?' and that was that for Mark. Now you know as well as I that Mark, despite whatever troubles he's suffered, is polite. I'm sure he was telling the truth when he said that he simply asked these questions. No crazy laughter, no trembling threatening gestures, just some one depsarate for some help. So tell me, Jack, how long did all this take? One minute? Two? Maybe three or four minutes tops? How then did it 'waste' the event for everybody? You know what it sounds like? It sounds like Maharaji was playing with the 'new people' like some kid in his neighbour's basement. Mom comes down, pops on the lights and -- poof! -- the spell is broken. Seduction interruptus. By the way, what efforts did you, as community co-ordinator, make to get Mark an interview with Maharaji? Yes the guy was suffering, we both agree on that. Did you know that he'd written Maharaji but had gotten no help whatsoever? Did you know about him sending the picture with his face all bloodied? Let's be honest, Jack, Mark was an embarrassment, a nuisance, and that was about that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 21:05:03 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: Really? That bad, huh? Message: Try 15 - 20 minutes. I tried to help Mark a lot. Can't remember back that far what transpired, but was unaware of the picture. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 21:57:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Really? That bad, huh? Message: Jack, I really want to understand this. Mark says he got to speak twice and neither time for very long. Now you know how long 15 minutes is? Is Mark lying? Or did it perhaps just seem that long, given the frustration and embarrassment you might hve been feeling. After all, you might have brought a 'new person' yourself (not that I ever recall you doing that, come to think of it. Oh well, not to worry. Heaven's going to need more than Amway Salesmen, I'm pretty sure.). As for help, what kind of help did you give Mark? Did you suggest to him that Knowledge was a sham and Maharaji a hoax? Or did you just tell him that it was all his 'mind' whatever that means? Did you advise him to see a psychiatrist? and if so, what was your thinking? After all, Knowledge was supposed to challenge the mind and the mind was supposed to be a hell hole for anyone stupid enough to live there. So where would psychiatry have come into it? What help did you give Mark, Mr. Community Co-ordinator? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 20:10:57 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: Alistair, Jack and Mark T. Message: Regarding authoritarian figure, I quoted Oxford on the definition of authoritarian. Do you not agree with that? Let me ask you, would you describe someone saying if you choose to leave you will always be welcomed back, a demonstration of authoritarionism? Yes or no? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 20:33:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Oh no you don't, Jack Message: Regarding authoritarian figure, I quoted Oxford on the definition of authoritarian. Do you not agree with that? Let me ask you, would you describe someone saying if you choose to leave you will always be welcomed back, a demonstration of authoritarionism? Yes or no? Hey, Jack, this is bullshit. Come on. I didn't ask you for Oxford's definition, I asked you if you agreed with the statement. You have not answered that question. Now, for the LAST time, do you agree with it or not? (I'm more than willing to entertain your question, by the way, but I think it's decidedly rude and evasive for you to do this. First things first.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 21:01:03 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh no you don't, Jim Message: You're right Jim it is bullshit, but your intentions in asking the question is bullshit. You'll have to settle for Oxford. Find someone else to play courtroom with, okay. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 21:17:43 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: That's a bad sign, Jack Message: Jack, That's a bad sign, man. When you can't bring yourself to answer such a straightforward question, you're proving something. What? Maybe just that you're too smart to play along with a cunning creep like me. 'Whoa! He almost got me to answer that one! Nice try, Heller!' On the other hand, it might mean that you just don't have the guts to state the obvious. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 10:18:19 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jack Subject: Oh no you don't, Jack Message: Jack: You're right Jim it is bullshit, but your intentions in asking the question is bullshit. You'll have to settle for Oxford. Find someone else to play courtroom with, okay. Okay, I'll ask. This business of leadership and authoritarianism is sort of 'my thang.' Here is the American Heritage definition of authoritarian: 1. Characterized by or favoring absolute obedience to authority, as against individual freedom: an authoritarian regime. 2. Of, relating to, or expecting unquestioning obedience. See synonyms at DICTATORIAL. To me, this definition seems compatible with Jim's, and with the point made in the Guru papers, to whit: 'an authority figure who either punishes or refuses to deal with subordinates who won't follow him without question is 'authoritarian'.' Keywords: 'expecting unquestioning obedience.' They don't really seem that different, now do they? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 14:25:45 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Oh no you don't, Jack Message: I too find his latest talk of synchronisation of concern. He quoted his father in a recent video, saying to make a garland you need many flowers and one thread, not many threads and one flower. How can he be so ruthless in turning a spiritual concept into a physcial one - ie do what I (my representatives) say, so that I can take this knowledge to the world - ie give me your money, your time and your skills, and I will spread my four techniques to other people, who also won't be allowed to share them with anyone who doesn't see me first! I susect the original quote was talking about a person being integrated in themselves, not being integrated into slavery so that one man can continue his megalomaniacal ride. Oh, but if you don't want to be on the garland, don't. You are missing out on the opportunity of a lifetime (and who knows, maybe perfect enlightenment in the hereafter) but don't let that worry you, I who gave you everything forgives you already. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 22:10:09 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: OK, I'll answer yours anyway Message: Regarding authoritarian figure, I quoted Oxford on the definition of authoritarian. Do you not agree with that? Let me ask you, would you describe someone saying if you choose to leave you will always be welcomed back, a demonstration of authoritarionism? Yes or no? Jack, I can't find your Oxford definition but let's jsut say I agree with it. I usually agree with dictionaries, don't you? As for your second question, no, I wouldn't describe 'someone saying if you choose to leave you will always be welcomed back, a demonstration of authoritarionism? Of course not. But who said anything about an authoritarian person -- whoever that might be -- always 'demonstrating' his power control? Straw man, Jack. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 01:27:16 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: about Mark T. Message: Hi Jim - John, who I respect, also spoke on the forum about there being a negative force in knowledge that he tapped into after meditating for long periods of time. He might be willing to post some more about it - not sure. Anyway, please tell your friend Mark this - it sounds like he's had a rough time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:50:20 (EST)
From: RT Email: soon To: Everyone Subject: Pharasee Accuracy Message: Good Day At my other computer I get 90 email's a week. Sometimes people say things which sound good but are BS. For example, the Dr. Weil newsletter had a page about vit c toxicity, w/out ever meantioning that Linus Pauling's study proved that it is the NATURAL vit. C that you can take a lot of - 3-6 grams a day - but not the acorbic acid kind -which was recently in news as being toxic over 500 mg, UNLESS bounded to natural bioflavanoids. Luckily I took the email to a physician friend who insisted that I write back & clear up the error. SEE? THEREFORE please THINK to be sure that what you say is true. I try to remember that everything that goes on the Net is for ALL time-for the entire planet-you are typing History in a sense-so be sure to have your Chit together. 'For ye may judge them by their toots' - the Bold Testament. Thank you! CARDS - I will mail out a few dozen at cost to askers, but am not gonna leaflet the events. no way...quietly place in corners of room...low key. This Forum cannot handle YET a deluge. What's the rush? IF the cards are passed out, YES we will have more responses to process. So the cards, I think, will go to Forum members, mostly 90%. Just ask, in 2 weeks. FYI: I was in DenCo ashram a short time - the Shelter - then premie houses /as a housefather/apts. ..My debt is from airplane trips in recent years-and a Silver Anniversary coin I got in LB for $60 which was later discounted to $30. Huh. I like not feeling the pressure to run to a K video indoctrination! That's freedom! Here in the NEast that is a lot of traffic. That reminds me I have to buy a new vcr today, there's a lot of great stuff at libraries to learn about. I think I will take up Canoeing/fishing and row my own boat for a change! Have safe weekend all. You guys are great :) RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 14:29:12 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: RT Subject: Pharasee Accuracy Message: Hi RT Thanks for writing that. I am feeling the same freedom. Isn't it wonderful? I have been asked to attend a web developers conference and it's the same time as the LB guru-do I think. As recently as 6 months ago, I would have felt some inner termoil mixed with some weird superstition about choosing work over the event. I am almost over all that. I am over it actually, there's just some vague missing of something I never had anyway. It sure feels good to be moving on, doesn't it? Do you really think people were serious about leafletting the event? That bothers me a little, I don't know, it seems kind of tacky. (sorry if this offends anyone) I may ask Katie to mail me some of those cards, when I get back. Take care. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:29:21 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Selena Subject: Helicopter Accuracy Message: You know what wouldn't be tacky? Get a helicopter to drop thousands of them right on top of the old guy in the middle of a talk!! The people who are happy with M could throw them in the trash, but the ones who weren't could find some conversation. Anyone got a 'copter? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:09:34 (EST)
From: Cheddar Thingy Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: VP Subject: Helicopter Accuracy Message: Now that's not such a daft idea, you know. You can rent a chopper plus pilot for probably a few hundred dollars. But don't drop them all on the big guy's head or ... oh what the hell, I have this ridiculous image of M sitting on a throne outdoors somewhere and suddenly, he's disappeared under a pile of ex-premie cards. Another way would be to discretely leave some lying around the Ladies & Gents toilets at programs. Not as exciting as an air drop though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:53:32 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Cheddar Thingy Subject: Helicopter Accuracy Message: I find this image absolutely hilarious! Imagine blanketing Amaroo or some other outdoor program site with the cards from a chopper, imagine how mad that'd make the BM? For some reason this just seems a lot funnier than trying to leaflet them in the parking lot or something, that reminds me of Hare Krisna's or Jehovah's Witnesses. But an air drop! Now that's Chicago Seven/Yippie style ex-premie tactics at their best. Reminds me of some of the outrageous things Act Up does to draw attention to the AIDS dilemma. Has flair, style. I like it, David! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 01:22:09 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP and all Subject: Helicopter Accuracy Message: VP, honey, you are right that blanketing M with leaflets from a helicopter would not be tacky. It might be a little bit flashy and/or trashy, though. Do you think our reputations can stand it? Seriously, I agree with Joy - I just love the image of it! It's great. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 06:21:13 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Ashram Debt Message: RT's Journeys entry referred to 3K of debt carried out of the ashram after Maharaji closed them. Joy countered that hers was more like 20K. Just how much financial responsibility did those ex-ashram premies assume for Maharaji? Does anyone know? These figures couldn't possibly reflect the monthly per-premie costs of maintaining a particular ashram, so the debt had to have been mounting over time. Who was floating these loans to EV? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 06:58:47 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Brian Subject: Ashram Debt Message: I was also interested in a reference made to Jim's inheritence. Did he give a substantial amount too? BTW I believe the coffers are pretty empty at EV. Someone else mentioned that. Yet for example amaroo was funded partly by specific donations and partly by the 'international fund'. So they put in plumbing (supposedly - I didn't see any at the event grounds) and an ampitheatre. BTW, it was stinking hot, and no shade for the premies listening to satsang. As I was leaving, someone mentioned M's pool at his residence on the land. He and his family spent about 6 weeks there, resting. Nice little get away retreat for his Lordship. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 07:53:04 (EST)
From: Bruce Email: None To: Jude Subject: Ashram Debt Message: Jude, I don't know if you feel like you have to contribute some dirt on M. to be accepted here or what, but look, plumbing goes underground. Thats why you couldn't see it.There is 5 km of it under the ground, along with power and optical fibres. I know because I was paid to put them in. The weather was mild compared to summer there, and anyway, are you blaming M. for the weather. On second thoughts, why not? The local paper would love that. 'Guru causes heatwave in the bush'. Sell a few more papers. Who cares about the truth. There is a rather small above ground pool for M's kids. My children have far better. My, what a weird trip it all is, right Jude? Bruce Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 08:13:18 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Bruce Subject: Ashram Debt Message: I'm talking about things that I don't like. Lots and lots of money spent on putting roads in the middle of nowhere, plumbing (I am not saying I couldnt see the pipes (**!!''') I am saying the plumbing was not in use yet for the premie 'visitors' who paid for the place actually. I am talking about all these resources used - for what - for people who can afford to fly in for a program (and spent thousands in 'donations' to sleep in tents on the land). I could go on but you just don't understand. Why is he building such places? the intimacy has certainy been destroyed by turning it into 'shopping city'.All my intuitive senses were telling me there is something not right, about the way I perceived knowledge to be and what I was seeing. That's all. and that's my business - I am saying this because it helps me to understand that the part of me that was niggling away all these times did actually know something about MY truth. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 14:03:45 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jude Subject: The Lord's Comfort Zone Message: It gets hot in Florida too, although I'm sure Florida has more humidity than the outback of Australia. BM always seemed to like unbearable heat, probably from having grown up in India, and hence was keen on moving IHQ from Denver to Miami in the late 70s and holding most of his US programs there.. Of course, BM never really had to suffer from the heat, as his every whim and comfort was attended to, sparing no expense. At those couple of Hans Jayanti Festivals in Kissimmee, Florida in 78 and 79, the premies sat in the hot Florida sun in the satsang area. I recall lathering on the sunscreen, wearing a hat and trying to stay cool. It was a challenge. I think it was probably worse for the kids, and there were many there. At night we slept in tents. BM of course, sat on the stage in an electronic throne which was specially molded to fit his corpulent body and could be adjusted electronically so he could adjust it's comfort exactly, through a series of dozens of air chambers in the chair. It also had a 'wall' of air conditioning surrounding the chair, also controlled by BM electronically, so that , despite sitting outside in the heat like the rest of us, he had invisible air conditioning for himself. His kids also sat in air-conditioned comfort at the side of the stage. BM openly bragged about all this stuff right from the stage when he gave satsang. Apparently it never occurred to him how arrogant that was, considering how the premies were existing. Oh, yes, an entire 'residence' was built behind the stage for BM and his family so that they could have every comfort and luxury you could imagine. That was the same program in which BM rode around in an open chariot-like vehicle, pulled by about 20 premies like they were pack animals. The premies lined the roadways of the festival site and pranamed as he rode by. He waved to the premies like he was Julius Caeser or the Queen of England or something. I remember even at the time, being the totally programmed premie that I was, thinking the guy had a pretty gigantic ego and that the whole performance sort of made me sick to by stomach. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:11:46 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: JW Subject: The Lord's Comfort Zone Message: JW, I just finished watching the Lord of the Universe video. The most intelligent thing I heard was spoken by an elderly gentleman. He said that he understood the religions of India. He said something like: You can walk in the streets and understand how they work. The gurus walk by and people throw money to them. They walk into their fancy palace and ride in their fancy cars, and what do the children in the streets get? Swollen bellies. It really mad me sad, listening to him. I really hated Maharaji's answer to the reporter who asked why he rode around in the fancy cars, etc, when he could be using that money to feed the needy. (First the DLM press agent tried to block the question, then M allowed the question.) His answer was- what the reporter described as a luxurious life, was not a luxurious life. Anyone who was given this life that he had been given, they would blow up in a split second. He was stating very clearly that he had it very hard. Poor guy. I do feel sorry for the fact that he was used as a child(By Mata Ji and apparently his older brother, who sounded like his speech writer). He couldn't play in the fields or make friends like normal children should. He was the bread winner. On the other hand, he did have Hawaiian punch to drink everyday which isn't too bad. Three questions for everyone. 1)Did anyone receive the 'appliance letter' that one ex-premie spoke of in the video? (I laughed out loud when I saw that word 'ex-premie' flash up on the screen, BTW) The ex-premie said that the letter stated that M was a little boy and needed some appliances to play with. What was that all about? 2)Did DLM really keep a record of all the premies with their talents and background on file? I never heard of such, but this info preceeds the credits at the end of the film. 3) Who was the bald Mahatma in the film? The one they showed over and over. Thanks to Katie for sending it. I am going to makea couple of copies tomorrow and then send it on. I think this film should be required viewing by every aspirant. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:20:51 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: The Lord's Comfort Zone Message: Hi VP - I can only answer one of your questions, cause I asked JW the same thing - the mahatma who was shown many times in the film was Gurucharanand. He is still one of M's two (?) initiators. (My husband said that he was the only one in the movie who looked spiritually inclined at all.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:43:26 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Mata Ji's Comfort Zone Message: Katie, Thanks! I thought that may have been who that was. Your husband was right about him looking spiritual. Maybe he is the lord. (snicker) The security guard who said he would have killed anyone who put a pie in M's face was the least spiritual, IMHO. I had to laugh when someone asked Mata Ji why she had a Mercedes and she answered that if you knew what K was, you'd buy Mata Ji a Mercedes, too. She was a consummate buisness woman. I thought about bb when the reporter asked Mata Ji if M had ever been any trouble to her. Her answer to the reporter was ironic considering it turned out the way that it did between them. My friend who was watching the film with me thought that all of the premies were on drugs. He couldn't believe that they were, 'blissed out.' I was also disappointed that the skeptic received knowledge in the end. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:58:37 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Mata Ji's Comfort Zone Message: Hey VP - some more comments: A lot of the premies were obviously meditating ('Remembering the Name') That's why they look so weird, IMHO. The security guard who said he'd slit the pie thrower's throat didn't bother me as much as he bothered JW. The guy sounded like he was from New York, New Jersey, Boston (I am a Northeasterner too) thus his words just seemed like mean mouth trash-talk to me. I bet the guy cringes whenever he thinks about being in that movie though. Wonder what happened to him? The 'skeptic' - the guy just LOOKED like a premie from the beginning. I never doubted that he'd get into it. Wonder what happened to him, too? P.S. Bob Mishler is visible briefly in the airport scene. He's a very thin guy standing to Maharaji's left. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:01:12 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: all Subject: oops Message: Re: Bob Mishler - he is standing TO THE LEFT of Maharaji (I think). He's actually on M's right. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:04:44 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: Glyng@techline.com To: VP Subject: The Lord's Comfort Zone Message: VP, Could you send me a copy? E-mail me and I'll send you my address. Thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:10:04 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net To: Gerry Subject: Gerry's video Message: Hi Gerry - we already have one wending its way to you. I will make you a copy of your own if you want it though - I have a better original that VP does (he has a copy of my copy). Let me know. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:34:08 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Katie Subject: LOTU video Message: I have a first generation copy of the LOTU video, which is a documentary about Millenium, and is NOT very sympathetic to Maharaji. Some of you have already arranged with me and JW to have this video sent to you, but if anyone else who I or JW has NOT talked to wants a copy, please e-mail me. I will either send you a copy or put you on the list of people to forward it too, depending on your situation. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:22:26 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: JW Subject: The Lord's Comfort Zone Message: Glad we didn't make it to Kissimee! We borrowed a station wagon from some other premies and attempted to drive from Portland OR to FL in 1978 via San Diego so we could stay a night or two with my sister. We had 3 kids, ages: 8 months, 3 yrs and 10 yrs. The baby got sick by San diego with a high fever, so we went back home. Never tried again to take the whole family to a program. I was way to expensive for us to fly more than one at a time so we did that for awhile. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 14:42:15 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jude Subject: Ashram Debt Message: Dont' let them get to you Jude. I enjoy reading your posts and find them thought provoking. OH NO! Once you get called a rabid dog, it all takes on a certain perspective. Take care. whiny puppy off on a road trip May, 1998 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:42:53 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jude Subject: No inheritance, I'm afraid Message: I'm afraid there is no big inheritance in the cards for me, past or present. Must have been someone's joke. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 21:08:39 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jim Subject: No inheritance, I'm afraid Message: Wasn't it JW who gave his inheritance to BM? I'm probably confused about this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 21:18:11 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: No inheritance, I'm afraid Message: JW gave his trust fund to Maharaji. Probably just a drop in the bucket (although not for JW and his family). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:11:18 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: No inheritance, I'm afraid Message: Twas I who mentioned it. It was a joke in reference to one of your posts where you said that you wanted your millions back. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:04:01 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: Brian Subject: Ashram Debt Message: Brian, I don't know where you got the idea I said I had 20K of debt upon leaving the ashram. Never said any such thing. Must have been someone else. Joe? No, I had no debt upon leaving, just a ten year hole on my resume (I remember trying to put together a graphics portfolio of some of the work I had done in the art dept. and all it was was magazines of M. dancing around in his mala costumes, and I just thought no WAY could I show that to any prospective employers!). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 13:51:53 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Brian Subject: Ashram Debt Message: I think it was lg who said that he or she had a $20,000 debt upon leaving the ashram. When the ashrams were closed in 1983, any debt that the ashram had was divided among the remaining residents. I left the SF ashram about 3 or 4 months before it was closed, and I had no idea that it was going to be closed. But, since I left a little early, I got none of the debt. I don't know if there was one. Many of the ashrams were very in debt, usually to the credit card companies of the ashram premies who had them. The debts accumulated in financing getting the residents to festivals and in supporting the mission, BM himself, and his grandiose projects like plane aquisition and rennovation. So, I understand that a substantial number of ashram residents were left holding ashram debts individually. But, boy, $20,000 in debt. That's kind of hard to swallow. lg, how did you ever pay that off? Funny isn't it? When BM decided to close the ashrams, he took zero financial responsibility, as well as any other responsibility to clean up the financial mess, let alone do anything about helping the ashramites incorporate back into normal society. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 14:40:39 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: JW Subject: Ashram Debt Message: Actually 20K doesn't sound all that implausible to me. We were always traveling to Miami. it seemed like at least 3 times a year there was some 'festival' I remember Holi and Hans Jayanti and I know thre must have been another. and, a lot of premies would go into debt to help someone else get there (like me) It must have added up over say, 5 years. I managed to accumulate almost that much myself, and I didn't live in the ashram. Part of mine was also a car loan, but that may have happened to lg or someone else. We had to have working vehicles for the semilocal stuff after all. And the last minute 'surprises' I was at one of Kissimee things JW. You know what? I was oblivious to all the bad stuff. I didn't have my kids, for once, so I just treated it like a big vacation. I do remember the heat. I also remember really pissing off some more devout premies who had a tent next to ours, because we would be up late giggling and joking around and they wanted to meditate. Maybe it was one of you guys! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 18:31:27 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper Email: billnlynda@xtra.co.nz To: all Subject: Ashram Debt Message: I remember Kissimee, only getting the flights together last minute from the UK turning up in Florida totally unprepared from a British winter to cope with the heat, no sunscreen and literally eight hours of service a day frying in the sun. I also remeber when GM did his chariot ride around the camp being totally blissed out. I`d really like to see this video that everyone is talking about if anyone contacts me at my e-mail address I`ll send you a cheque for the video and the air mail to New Zealand. And the cards sound great too but not much opportunity to use them here. On a completely different isssue I`ve not been able to read the forum for a week as my machine got a virus, from where I know not but I read a few messages about viruses when I logged on Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:11:15 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Bill Cooper Subject: Ashram Debt Message: FYO I checked my system and I have no viruses. Also, I understand we can't get or give them by just copying and pasting back and forth. ( It has to be a direct link- Is that right, guys?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:54:36 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Bill Cooper Subject: Video for Bill C. Message: Hi Bill - I remember you very well from the archives. If you will e-mail you your address, I will send you a copy of the Lord of the Universe video. It may take a week or two for me to get it in the mail - I need to get more copies made. Please do not worry about reimbursing me - all I ask is that you would be willing to copy the video for any one else in New Zealand who might be interested. Thanks, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 21:10:52 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Katie Subject: To Katie, & others Message: Katie: The video I got seems a bit degraded. How close is it to the original, and is it worth copying? Don't know much about this. It might be interesting to get a very good original and digitize it onto a lazer disk or something. Anyone know anything about that technology? Lots of people have computers with CD-Roms, but doubt if an entire video can be compressed onto 700MB. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 21:37:55 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: To Katie, & others Message: Hi Scott - You have a second generation copy (it's made from my copy of Jim's original), which is probably why it seems degraded. I would be willing to lend my copy to you or anyone who wants to make copies, after I make a few more copies of it. Let me know. Also, Jim might be willing to do this as well, since he has the original. (I have no idea about digitizing and CD-ROMs!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 22:01:09 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Katie Subject: To Katie, & others Message: Katie: (I have no idea about digitizing and CD-ROMs!) I have a good relationship with a little computer shop near here, and will check out the digitizing thing. You can make copies of a digitized file without degrading the quality. It would still be too big to send over the web, I think, but it'd be a good way to preserve or archive it. Watching the video, I can't believe I was actually there! I was profoundly affected by that festival, and didn't see it as a failure. I wonder what ever happend to the people I went with? I still remember some of those I met there. Very good memories, in spite of how silly the whole thing looks now. I recall all-nighters at the Houston ashram after the festival trying to obtain knowledge. Learning to give that level of deference to another was not easy, and it was not always unpleasant. Of course, I now value the experience for completely different reasons, as a kind of insight into human strengths that can become weaknesses. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 12:33:56 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Selena Subject: Ashram Debt Message: Selena,< I believe the $20 K debt, but that was just for ONE person, clearly the debt of the whole ashram must have been many times that amount. I just find it amazing that someone who was turning over all his or her money would be saddled with that size of debt when the ashram closed. Not only was there no savings or any material possessions, and having to start a life from scratch, there also was this huge debt. Yes, the festivals caused debt, but so did the donations to BM. Towards the end of my time as an ashram housefather, I used to delight in telling the community coordinator that the ashram lacked funds to give money for some new plane or something BM wanted. I simply refused to put the ashram in debt for that. I had been in Miami prior to that and saw how luxuriously BM lived and how much money was wasted. I'd rather spend the money on making sure the ashram brothers got their teeth fixed, had decent clothes, and that the vehicles were in good repair. That seemed a lot more sensible to me, although I'm sure if the CC or the initiators knew, I would have been accused of not trusting BM enough. I don't think you kept me awake at Kissimee, Selena, although I do recall some family from France in a tent next to mine, who let their kid scream from approximately 4:00 AM on, unabated. That was a bit annoying. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 14:32:49 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: JW Subject: Ashram Debt Message: I simply refused to put the ashram in debt for that. I had been in Miami prior to that and saw how luxuriously BM lived and how much money was wasted. I'd rather spend the money on making sure the ashram brothers got their teeth fixed, had decent clothes, and that the vehicles were in good repair. and just to update this to current times, M was talking in a video last year about mahatmas still living on ashrams in India. I have described this before but will again...he said some people were questioning giving up their whole lives to knowledge, whether it was worth it. He then described an elderly mahatma who he noticed was peering at him, so he asked him if he could see and the man said no, so he organised to get hima new pair of glasses, and then he could see again, and he was so grateful! He went on to say this man lived a simple life, but was happy. He had a roof over his head, clothing (and new glasses!). He then went on to say this investment (of your life) to knowledge is the best investment you could make. I will not add my comments but let others think about this. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 05:19:58 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Forum Decorum... Message: Hi everyone! I have something extremely important, everlastingly significant etc to say here, or, just another brain fart! One thing I have really gained on this forum is that when I do a post, someone sane usually answers me, with something either funny, kind or guiding to say. Eg people who have already dealt with Maharaji issues a lot - so aren't still wavering between love/hate (changing from one day to the next as they try to work it out). And also there are people just like me to talk to. If people go leafleting, going out to 'promote' this forum, can it handle it? If suddenly a lot of people in crisis or anger or with a lot of need to share all come at the same time, maybe the 'therapists' here can't be available for too many at once?? I realised a while back some people are giving a lot of their time here - but what if they back off for some reason - I don't want to be too serious (really!) but for me, the value of the Forum is in the people who answer my posts, not just the existence of a place to talk. Tell me I worry too much! PS I must agree with David, I really do not think it is a good idea to leaflet at events. Giving cards out one to one is a great idea though. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 05:47:42 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Forum Decorum...amendment Message: Perhaps I should have said 'resident recovered cultists' rather than 'therapists'. That is too loaded a word. The moving finger writes...and I say things without thinking them out first!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 11:49:23 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Jude Subject: Forum Decorum...amendment Message: Thanks for that about the moving finger writing. I was getting a little self conscious about what I thought were a lot of biblical allusions in my posts and me sure not a christian. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 13:56:18 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jude Subject: Forum Decorum...amendment Message: I vote for 'resident recovered cultists' Much better than 'therapist', I mean just look at that word--the rapist Gives me the creeps. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 06:27:14 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jude Subject: Forum Decorum... Message: I don't want to be too serious (really!) but for me, the value of the Forum is in the people who answer my posts, not just the existence of a place to talk. Tell me I worry too much! You worry too much. Now watch yer mail for my therapy bill... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 06:53:09 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Brian Subject: Forum Decorum... Message: got me laughing! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:48:19 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jude Subject: Forum Decorum... Message: Jude, I agree about the value of this site and about handing the cards out one on one. Since I was here last I got a new kitten at the pound after I took them a racoon we'd caught in a trap, got a new hospice family and had a short bout of food poisoning or something. Lots of posts to catch up on when you're gone a day!! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:55:54 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Carol Subject: Forum Decorum... Message: Dear Carol, hope you enjoy your new kitten (lucky!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:03:10 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Everyone Subject: Who'd a thunk it? Message: Hello All! I have spent much time on this site arguing that 'Jesus did not teach this Knowledge.' Well, this week I was doing some research on the Nestorian mission in China in the seventh century and I was reading this strange book on the Nestorian church written in 1928, when I came across a passage which claims that the concpt of Bhakti in the Gita came from the Christians! The author goes on to prove that some Christian soteriolgy influenced the Mahabharata and even Kabir. The arguments are not convincing, but I thought that it was a strange little chapter. Now Hindus can argue that 'Krishna did not teach this salvation!' What a wiggy world! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 08:53:14 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Who'd a thunk it? Message: Michael: I'm not sure I follow. I've heard the term 'bhakti' but don't really know what it means. BTW, the Parsis, or Zoroastrians comprise the oldest salvation religion. Zhubin Mehta [sp?] is a Parsi. Some think it predates Christianity by 1500 years. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 09:55:18 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Who'd a thunk it? Message: Hi Scott. I'm sure Mickey can best answer to your satisfaction but since I'm here I can quote you a passage about Bhakti from a little book of Kabir poetry (version by Robert Bly - who is also the author of a men's book called 'Iron Jack', which is about men's mythology and being male - sort of a men's liberation book.) Here is his description: 'There's little one can say about the Bhakti tradition that doesn't diminish it. Perhaps we could see it more clearly by comparing it with a contrasting road.' (Talks about European saints of Middle Ages eg Tauler, saying no to the body and meaning it. Link between ego & body emphasised, ego dispersed through humiliation to body. Hair shirts, whips etc) (BTW, Leonard Cohen wrote a beautiful book with this theme. I think it was called Beautiful Losers, for all you LC fans.) Anyway…Blake wrote criticism of this path 'Better murder an infant in its cradle than nurse unacted desires' 'Priests in black gowns are walking their rounds, and binding with briars my joys and desires'. Bly says that road was called the 'via negativa' and Eliott in his religious life consciously followed it. He says the Bhakti path is not peculiar to India & he thinks it existed in Ras Shamra and among the Etruscans. Says some Odin and Babylonian myths refer to it. Says in India a vast Bhakti energy arose in 8th or 9th century and now an alternative to the Vedic chanting began (chanting done by 'religious academics who could read Sanskrit). So Bhakti involved ' heart-love, feeling, dancing - Mirabai evidently used ankle castanets and ankle rings - love of colour, of intensity, of male-female poles, avoidance of convention (a discipline shared by Tristan and Isolde).' Ecstatic poetry was written for long sessions which lasted 3 or 4 hours in the middle of the night with sung and chanted poems. In North India the Bhakti experience became associated with Krishna as a visualisation of the right side of the body, and Radha as a visualisation of the left. Jayadeva gave Gita Govinda around 1200 with ecstatic passages of R & K lovemaking. The male poets evokes Radha's feelings when separated from Krishna (described on the outside) but 'Mirabai never mentions Radha and Krishna from the outside just as Christ never mentions the Essenes, because he is the Essenes just as she is Radha'. Kabir sometimes speaks as a man, sometimes as a woman. He describes several personages, Shir Caitanya, (ecstatic meditator), who travelled from village to village in Bengal 1510-1530, also Namdev, Jnaneshwar, Chandidas and Vidyapati (poets). He says then came Kabir, and following him were Mirabai, Kumbhandas, and Surdas. Out of interest, he says Kabir disputed the translation of Christ's words 'the Kingdom of the Spirit resembles a cottonwood seed'. He says the translators of the time had to choose between 3 sets of opposites - Spirit-Body; sky-earth; or Heaven-this world. He says St. Paul & the early fathers chose the translation 'the Kingdom of Heaven'- the opposite state of this then is life. Salavation is then driven into the next life. Kabir says a simple error of translation like this can destroy an entire religion. PS: By the way: when in Southern India I went to see some temples once, they were in a vast empty plain with nothing around them to be seen but dust. I was told this was because so many invaders had come, fighting; everything around the temples had been destroyed. The temples had carvings on the outside. Inside, there were columns made of some kind of iron or stone, and if you tapped them they made a musical note. The guide told us to be a 'Queen' in those times meant you had to be able to dance. It was a lovely story, ( I think something has been lost in translation.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 10:11:28 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jude Subject: Who'd a thunk it? Message: Jude: Thanks for that comprehensive answer. Dancing is one of my favorite pastimes. It is almost ecstatic sometimes, and represents a form of universal language. Lots of cross-cultural similarities, especially in group figures and steps. Still haven't found your 'life as a dog' post. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:45:47 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Who'd a thunk it? Message: Aw forget it Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 19:31:17 (EST)
From: nigel Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Who'd a thunk it? Message: The hindu traditon has three distinct approaches to attaining liberation: The Path of Devotion (Bhakti) The Path of Knowledge (Jnana) The Path of Good Works (Can't remember this one - neither can BM!) BM's trip is a hybrid of the first two. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:20:59 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: nigel Subject: Who'd a thunk it? Message: The path of knowledge is mentioned in the Bhagavad Gita - but it seems different to what M talked about. Do you know anything about that? He went through a stage of quoting the BG all the time. (Krishna & Arjuna - the student.) For example not so long ago he said Krishna said he would drive the chariot but not steer it, or similar words. More direclty, he also said fairly recently he is not 'big brother', helping people out when they make mistakes etc - then again, he also said that when you get to the bottom of the barrell, the master puts a trap door in right at the bottom. On one hand he tries to dispel the myth that 'he' is always there, yet on the other he makes 'secret' promises, and that's when the mainstream premies go berserk, by the way, and start cheering. That really seems to be the pay off. He rescues and saves you from all your troubles (inferred) (yet then again he is not big brother). Maybe he is trying to wean people off. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:36:25 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jude Subject: Who'd a thunk it? Message: Jude: He rescues and saves you from all your troubles (inferred) (yet then again he is not big brother). Maybe he is trying to wean people off. More likely he's just confused, stupid, or drunk. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 21:07:10 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Youse guys Subject: Who'd a thunk it? Message: I just thought it was funny that this author was claiming that the idea of Bhakti came from the Christian Church in India (Mar Thoma or Syrian Orthodox) and that Christianity had influenced the author of the Bhagavad Gita. His arguments seemed a little far-fetched to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 01:46:08 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Question Time Message: Read the Kabir stuff I posted to Scott yesterday. I may be half asleep, but Im sure Kabir talks about Christ's teachings. Yes, he does, because my question to you is: could you just explain the 'kingdom of heaven/spirit is like a cotton seed' quote mentioned there (at the end of the post) I know those seeds were common, but do you have an interpretation of the meaning? Thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 03:01:25 (EST)
From: Mickey the Exegete Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Jude Subject: Question Time Message: Hi Jude, I think Kabir is referring to the 'Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed' passage in the synoptic gospels. The hyperbole is that the mustard seed is the smallest seed yet the mustard plant is the greatest of shrubs. Mustard seeds aren't the smallest seeds, but that's the illustration used in the parable, and mustard is more of a weed than a shrub. It means that the Kingdom of God comes from small beginnings, but blossoms and grows all over the place. It also means that, no matter how small one's faith is, nothing is impossible. Here Endeth the Lesson, Thanks be to God. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 20:57:17 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Hello, Seattle - Adios, Mexico Message: I called EV's North American number to get information about the Seattle event. It's Saturday, July 11th. Takes place at the Washington State Convention And Trade Center at 800 Convention Place. I think that's the one near the freeway in downtown. The room is 6-E. Sadly, the event scheduled for Mexico was cancelled 'due to safety concerns' for the people attending. Whatever THAT means. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:10:49 (EST)
From: RT Email: wait To: Everyone Subject: Slo-guns set to stun: CARDS Message: Time for RT! Thank you all for responding so well, with such insight. A week from my actually printing the cards, this is what is preferred. 1. Just Say Know! 2. Where Knowledge Brought Us... 3. The Obvious is not often apparent. 4. The Truth is very simple 5. Learning about the Master. 6. Realization. All others were too long, not sweet and simple, or too much humor. I did have more fun per hour doing this! We will start with 1 and 2. Who says we can't have a coupleof slogans? So, I will try out a few on Avery business card stock on the color printer. XPO's who will use cards are welcome to request some. Wait till my email is installed - I just moved into a new job/apt. blessed be RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:37:23 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: RT Subject: Slo-guns set to stun: CARDS Message: Hi RT (or is that Artie? Hmmm...) I have to say that you are a good sport and a nice person! All your original suggestions were hilarious, by the way, but most were TOO hilarious for the uninitiated, if you know what I mean. I think 'Just Say Know', and 'Where Knowledge Brought Us' are great. I only know one current premie, and my husband (not and never a premie) is dying to stick something in his mailbox regarding Ex-Premie.org. So let me know your e-mail address when you get some printed. (Actually, I could use another one for a very old friend of mine... and maybe a couple more...for some fence-sitters I know.) Thanks for the thought. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:47:54 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: RT Subject: Slo-guns set to stun: CARDS Message: I definitely go with 2, also Action man/woman! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 20:50:49 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: RT Subject: Slo-guns set to stun: CARDS Message: The original meaning of the word 'slogun' is a battle cry used by Scottish Highlanders as they went into battle. These days we have made the word into something 'nice' and safe. However, I think that when people start handing these cards out at programs, the original meaning of the word will become apparent. I would anticipate some nasty 'security' people asking if you'd like to come and have a talk about the handing out of these cards. Whereupon the card distibutor will be either removed from the premises, politely, or worse, invited into a room for a 'talk' where the shit will be kicked out of him/her. This is just a warning of what might happen. Elan Vital won't be all peace, love and understanding about this one, in my opinion. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 20:57:39 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Sir David and RT Subject: Slo-guns set to stun: CARDS Message: Dear Sir David - Yes, I would advise RT not to get caught, although it does sound like the security in the UK was somewhat 'heavier' than that in the US. In fact, I'm astounded that the WPC (or whomever) might have actually beat people up! I saw the interview with the British security guys in the Millenium documentary, but didn't realize that things had been so intense. Now I'm starting to understand Elvis Costello a little better! (and not just 'What's So Funny About Peace, Love and Understanding' either...) Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:15:49 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Slo-guns set to stun: CARDS Message: Do they have use metal detectors? Just wonderin... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:05:47 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Slo-guns set to stun: CARDS Message: There must be some law or city ordinance which a person ought to ivestigate for whatever city of the program. Perhaps ones about placing flyers or seeking petitions or demonstrating. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:21:18 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Carol Subject: Slo-guns set to stun: CARDS Message: Carol, Do you think I could bring in a tape recorder or would it be confiscated if it didn't pass through a metal detector? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:27:32 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Tape recorders? Message: Gerry - I don't know about tape recorders, but here is my educated guess - they won't let you bring one in. How else are they going to sell you the tape of the program? I sent Brian my information on the programs (including forms for advance seat registration) so he might be able to clarify any rules and regulations for you. Katie Passed out too many leaflets for M already - 1973. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 06:23:04 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: RT Subject: Well done, RT! Message: Just like to say congratulations on this whole initiative (hey! what a great choice of word, 'initiative'), RT. As my mum used to say 'actions speak louder than words', and as JW pointed out recently, this forum just gets more fun all the time. I bet the regular premies at the program won't be having anything like such a good time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 06:34:30 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: RT Subject: Well done, RT! Message: I like 1 & 2 Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 17:07:52 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jack Subject: A Vent Message: Come in, JackMessage:Jude, saying 'it really worked for me to use [asshole]' is a cop-out. It was rude and totally uncalled for. You didn't know Alister, I did - and so did Jim. It was no secret his swings into depression. His seeming rejection of the possibility of being happy. I talked to him on numerous occasions and often felt a level of frustration. I'm not a psychiatrist so I can't tell you the technical explanation but be seemed to be more comfortable in his misery than happiness. (BTW, that was the point of the cartoon, 'The Sunshine Makers'.) Tell me Jack, if someone like Alister came up to you now, as a fellow-premie, and told you he was miserable even though he had been 'doing the do' with knowledge, and you could tell that this had been bothering him for some time, more than just a little bit, and as you said, you already knew he was a often 'unhappy' (depressed), what would you say to him? Would you advise him to practice more? Go to more videos? I tell you, the people I know now at videos would do that. Oh, she's depressed because she's not practicing, not listening or both. Padarthanand (sp?) told our group before we received knowledge 18 months ago that he believes Knowledge will protect you from physical and mental illness. So if he believes that (bless his heart) don't you see the power M has in people's hearts and minds? I don't feel like being sarcastic with you any more. I could question your use of the words appropriate, unfair, unkind, impartial but I can see a part of you probably enjoys getting people angry. Maybe you are unconscious of that. Once you got a response to your blatantly outrageous statement that Knowledge probably saved him for a while (insinuating he was obviously a hopeless case who nothing could really help anyway - a defenceless, dead guy) - then you could go to work trying to make teams for and against me. I am not here to fight a battle, Jack. I am here to help myself. Why do you come here? To vent your impotent rage, which is probably really meant for Maharaji only you can't admit that? (I say that because you prompt other people, like me, to act out your rage for you. Then you can reason with it, put it down, say how inappropriate and IMPOLITE it is. Well sweety, if you ever see a film called GI Jane, there's a great line in that, and it is appropriate. Do you know the saying I am referring to? Here is a simple suggestion about what could be going on in a depressed (ie mentally ill) person's mind; Maharaji is God in person Maharaji says practicing knowledge will help you enjoy your life, open the door, show you the immortal, take you to your true home inside, make your desert green again (whatever) I am doing everything he says and I am not feeling Happy or Fulfilled = I am bad. And if God can't help me there is no hope for me. =Suicide A possible scenario. I am sitting here at 6.30 a.m., wondering how I am so stirred up about this. Maybe you are just a decent, innocent guy who can't imagine why this woman pounced on you and called you names! You'd better turn to the others and act like a victim straight away, trying to divide and conquer! I don't need to be impartial because I am not towing any party line - so I don't have to play by those 'rules', sorry. Guess what, I RESPECT people who take medication when it is needed, to save their families the grief of what unchecked illnesses can lead to. And maybe if you hadn't been sucked into believing Knowledge was Everything, you might have admitted you didn't know how to help Alister, and suggested he went to a professional, like a psychiatrist instead of thinking, well it works for me, so he must be not trying hard enough, or must enjoy his misery. That is a common misunderstanding with mental illness. Ok, I have vented myself now I think. I don't care whether you read this or not. I am doing this for me. And I will take note of not personally attacking other people who think differently to me, I agree that is ignorant behaviour on my part. I will try to attack the attitude not the person. I hardly know anything about you, by the way, but you know stuff about me (like having taken medication in the past). So, how about telling something real about you and let's move on. Or else I won't communicate with you any more. I don't intend to let people like you make me afraid to share true stuff about myself here if I need to or want to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 20:39:45 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jude Subject: A Vent Message: You generated a long stream of consciousness that I'm sorry I don't have time to give proper consideration to, but quickly... No I don't enjoy making people angry. I just try to state my opinion as honestly and sincerely as I can. Tell me Jack, if someone like Alister came up to you now, as a fellow-premie, and told you he was miserable... what would you say to him? I would probably offer him as much kindness as I could and advise him to seek professional help. I have a question for you: What makes you think I've 'been sucked into believing Knowledge was Everything'? Big assumption Jude. You don't even know me! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 20:41:49 (EST)
From: Jack Email: None To: Jude Subject: A Vent Message: BTW, the 'blatantly outrageous statement that Knowledge probably saved [Alister] for a while' was suggested to me by his mother. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 05:56:40 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jack Subject: To Jack Message: You sounded much more human and reasoning to me in those two posts. It's a bit complicated, but Jim wrote a really strong post a little while back about how he gave satsang to Alister the day before he died, telling him to practice more. (But he's ok about it I believe). So you're right, I just assumed you would do the same thing - for some reason, I thought you are a die-hard premie from my impression of you, belittling Jim and attacking people here. But everyone has their own mechanisms - mine might be to (usually) get down and grovel rather than say what I think. I am glad that you are willing to consider and think about some things here. I am sorry your belief came from his mother, I think it says a lot about people's inability to understand each other. Just my personal opinion. Also, I talk about mental illness not only because i have been through it but because it is a big taboo in our society, only just starting to be understood more - just like physical illnesses - there need be no shame attached. It's shame that stops people getting help when they need it, and the lack of understanding. Yours sincerely Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:31:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jack Subject: Jack, what about this? Message: Jack, 1)When did Cathy say this? Like I've mentioned in my post above, Mark Townsend tells me that he spoke with her just a few weeks ago and she certainly blames Maharaji for contributing to her son's death. (To me the only question is does one hold Maharaji fully responsible or just partially. I say that if Maharaji's path of surrender was not valid, then Maharji's responsible for all the forseeable consequences of his false doctrine. Was it forseeable that some people would lose their jobs by following his 'diet'? Yes, thus he's responsible. Was it forseeable that some people would lose their marriages? Yes, responsible. Was it forseeable that some would freak out and/or become severely depressed, even suicidal? Yep, responsible). 2)Also, is it true that you tried to keep Mark out of that session with Maharaji in 85? whether the Kramer/Alstead quote about authority figures is still evasive. You quoted my question: Also, by the way, do you agree with the comment from The Guru Papers… that authority figures who punish or refuse to deal with people who won't obey without question are 'authoritarian'? Then you said this: Oxford definition: 'Favouring or enforcing strict obedience to authority.' Maharaji: 'The door will always be open.' Is that supposed to be an answer? Come on, Mr. Impartiality, why not just drop your guard a bit and answer the stupid question already. Leave Maharaji, your father and my vice-principal out of it and just do waht no premie has had the guts to do yet: answer the question. Do you agree that an authority figure who punishes or refuses to deal with people who won't follow him without question is 'authoritarian'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:35:14 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: correction Message: The last part of my post above was supposed to read: 3) Finally, your reply to my question about whether or not you agree with the Kramer/Alstead quote about authority figures is still evasive. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 21:14:48 (EST)
From: Pajama man Email: None To: Jude Subject: A Vent Message: 'Maharaji is God in person Maharaji says practicing knowledge will help you enjoy your life, open the door, show you the immortal, take you to your true home inside, make your desert green again (whatever) I am doing everything he says and I am not feeling Happy or Fulfilled = I am bad. And if God can't help me there is no hope for me. =Suicide A possible scenario.' Not only possible, Jude, but I believe that this scenario, or one close to it, may have happened to a friend of mine. (My other theory is that my friend was discovering that M was not what he had originally thought and could not deal with it or accept it.) Alistar could have been crazy, but my friend was not. Real great person, kind, loving, etc. A damn shame and a waste. I don't think you would have to be mentally ill to have the above scenario, just programmed. 'Padarthanand (sp?) told our group before we received knowledge 18 months ago that he believes Knowledge will protect you from physical and mental illness.' My friend told me this about K, too. I know that in the 70's, K was purported to do this. It could protect you from mental illness. Someone (can't remember who now) argued on this forum that this claim is no longer made. I am amazed to hear that it is still the case. I know that you are going through a hard time right now. I wish you the best. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 05:44:38 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Pajama man/Katie Subject: A Vent Message: Dear VP It could protect you from mental illness. Someone (can't remember who now) argued on this forum that this claim is no longer made. I am amazed to hear that it is still the case. I didn't mean to get you and Katie involved when I blew my temper at Jack, I now realise that was not a good thing to do, for one, because of that reason (and I guess I hurt Jack's feelings too). Well, actually I'm Ok, maybe it was a bit of the old 'Everyone get on the roof! She's got a machine gun! (Robyn Williams sketch about PMS) So, the thing is I am really well mentally. It bothers me about 'they don't claim that about knowledge any more' because of the nature of many people there, who sincerely believe things they learned or found for themselves abut knowleldge. They aren't going to tow a party line, are they? Or M would have no supporters at all. People like Charanand (who I really liked) aren't puppets! Such instructors do give Satsang, usually to prepare the Aspirants before M comes, it seems to me. And they do a great job in support of him, they are testimony to what knowledge has given them. Of course he needs people like them, who believe in him, to speak from their hearts. Anyway, I am not going back to therapy, as I was debating. Just because a change has happened. In fact the whole concept of needing someone to tell em what to do/who I am is part of the Guru trip I think (but I can see this from my own vantage point - I already completed four years of psycho-therapy and another 6 months later of 'counselling' just to help me along. I also had counselling when I was in early recovery from drug (marijuana) addiction; I started to try and kick it in my early 30's. That's it's own (unnecessary) story. So here I am, ship shape, realising I have to do my life myself, with or without a Guru, Therapist or even Husband. My dad is gone and my mum is fading slowly…but she is still here. And I have a great daughter to (jointly) raise. I like the Forum because as a child my family moved regularly every 2 years and I missed out on some sort of peer connection. I think I can learn a lot from my peers and I also need to have more fun in my life! I hope I haven't bored you, I know you have a young baby in your house - it must be quite bedlamic at times! Thank you for being such a caring soul - you really are. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 10:09:53 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jude Subject: A Vent Message: 'I didn't mean to get you and Katie involved when I blew my temper at Jack, I now realise that was not a good thing to do...' You didn't do a thing. I jumped right in on my own:) I don't have much time to write now, but wanted to tell you that I appreciate what you wrote. I am not ever bored by anything that you write. I am learning from you and everyone here all of the time. Enjoy the weekend, Jude! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 14:56:51 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jude Subject: A Vent - to Jude Message: Jude - I agree with VP - you didn't get me involved - I involved myself. You didn't even mention my name. Please don't worry about it - I got to say some things I wanted to say, and I think that we all got straight with Jack, too. I also don't think your stories are boring - I'm even surprised that you would think that. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 18:51:08 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Pajama man Subject: A Vent Message: This topic of surrender is coming up again and again in this thread and I think surrender never did have anything to do with Maharaj Ji as a person. My relationship to him was either seeing him as a powerful being who could intercede in my behalf or as an advisor who could help me understand or help me improve my practice. As a powerful being I did not expect him to really pay much attention to me and he had said enough to convince me that he was not all that kind and considerate in the usual sense. He had laughed or remarked jokingly about premies getting so freaked out they would hang themselves in the closets of the ashrams. And he also made an offhand comment that some human beings at birth '...just bark and die.' As for him being an advisor I never really got that much from Guru Maharaj Ji's satsang when it came to that. I did somtimes read it over and over trying to peel the scales from my eyes so to speak but I just can't remember any great insights that came to me as a consequence. I have always thought that surrender referred to the practice of knowledge since I was so terrible at it and still am and have such a difficult and fruitless time with meditation. I just can't seem to let go, in other words surrender. I am sorry about Alistair. I have spent some time on that borderline in recent years. I am also sorry he got that bit about just being better or different (practicing more, more,more). That probably was harmful. But I have done that kind of distancing thing alot myself. I can't surrender, let go and just get in there and be with someone no matter what without a lot of protective preparation. Thank you. I hope I don't make it harder for anyone. It's hard enough already. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:04:37 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jude Subject: A Vent Message: Jude, I wholeheartedly support you in what you said and your right to say it !!Jack has struck (or attempted to) some really low blows. Glad you can deflect them!! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:25:06 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Guilt trips -to Jack Message: Sorry, Jack, but this response was going under, so I am moving it up here...This in response to your post that the expremies are guilty of laying guilt trips, too. Thanks, Jack. I see what you mean, and I don't want to lay a guilt trip on any parents who are good. I see parents who drag their kids to programs and they are without clothes and such and I have to wonder about those parents, right? It is true that I know non-premie parents who drag their kids to other things besides M's programs and they suffer just as much. I don't think that all premie parents are bad. That would be silly. I don't want to hurt any premies and I am sorry if anyone else here does. I do not believe that M is who he says he is, but I cannot hate those who believe him, because that was me once, too. Jack, I have a theory and that is all it is. I think that we dislike the parts of ourselves that embarrass or disappoint us. I think that once people realize they have been deceived by Maharaji, it is very easy for them to be disgusted with the part of themselves that was so gullible, so trusting. Sometimes they project this disgust onto others who are still perceived as being that 'trusting or gullible' for lack of better terms. I am not saying that it is RIGHT to take that out on others, I am just saying why I think that it happens. I do think that people can move beyond that, and they should. If I still believed what you do, I probably could not come here and listen to this, it would be too painful for me to do so. Another part of me would want to defend M, I know it, so I would probably hang out here afterall. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:22:41 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: Everyone Subject: What exactly is a 'master'? Message: Everyone uses that term.The master...A true living Master....the perfect master....on and on and on. O.K.,so what exactly is M a master of?Is he a/the master of the experience of knowledge?If so,then what does that mean?Does it mean that M is deep in that experience of knowledge 100% of the time and it never turns off?Or that he could be in that experience 100% if he so chose? This is not meant facetiously.I really would like anyone who feels that they know what's meant by 'master' to try and explain it. If you're wondering what I think,well,it's a tough one.In the early 70's it was apparently part of the package that M had fully realized this experience/knowledge at a very young age.Based on that I would think that means that he knows the experience inside out and has been/was/is at a point where there's nothing about that experience that he's not experienced himself. These days however you won't hear anyone talking about M fully realizing knowledge or stuff like that.All you'll hear is that you need a living master and he's it. O.K.-a newcomer asks:'He keeps referring to 'the master',what's that?' How would you answer that question? ------------------------------------------------------------------ p.s.-The thing that I can't figure out is this;if, as I've heard,this experience is infinite,then how can one master something that doesn't have a final point of arrival?I've heard M say that he's 'still learning',but if he's still learning then how can he be master? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:06:18 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: bftb Subject: What exactly is a 'master'? Message: Excellent question. I think BM is actually quite unsure how to even portray this to people anymore. You're right. He used to say, at least indirectly, that the experience was impossible without him. And when he used to say that devotion was the true gift he was giving, which was different and distinct from knowledge, he also said he was the necessary target for the devotion, like you couldn't have it is he wasn't there. Also, he even got to the point of saying in the late 70s and early 80s that when you go to that 'beautiful place' inside you are WITH BM, which, again, becamse the whole point of being a premie, which was to be a devotee. This of course, all contradicts what he also used to say, and says even more now, that you just receive knowledge and 'enjoy your life.' But if that is just the PR line, because if it were really true, you wouldn't need him and that is a real problem for a 'master,' especially one that relies on his followers as a combined meal ticket. When I heard a more recent video, it was really unclear how HE actually fit into the whole scenario because what he says is so contradictory. It's like he beats around the bush and is afraid to say what he REALLY wants the premies to believe. For example: 1. He says knowlege is inside of you and is you, therefore it really is quite separate from BM or anyone else, and depends on no one else. Therefore, it is really unclear how M fits into the experience. I think he has tried to mitigate that by firing the initiators and revealing knowledge himself. At least then he can say HE showed you the experience. But why one should be eternally grateful and worship BM for the rest of one's life because of that is never really stated. 2. He tries to imply the 'devotion thing' like he used to, but he calls it 'gratitude.' In the Long Beach video from 1996, he slipped in, kind of understated, that if you experience 'gratitude' (presumably for HIM) you get an enhanced experience of knowledge. Of course this contradicts his earlier statements that knowledge is inside of you and is you, and that you should just receive it and enjoy, but I think he is really reaching for an explanation of why you even need a 'master' anyway, and this is a kind of more relatable way to keep devotion in the picture. Of course, the premies from the 70s are primed for that anyway. 3. Premies say they need the 'master' for inspiration to practice knowledge and to be 'reminded' that the experience is there. I think this is basically saying that they feel the need for a 'group high' at programs and to be able to fawn over his pictures, much as one might do over the picture of a rock star as a young teenager. But this is also contradictory, because BM says the experience of knowledge is 'so beautiful' and so easy and simple to experience, that one wonders why such 'inspriration' is necessary, and why you would need to get it from the 'master.' I think this is another reason he banned satsang. I used to get quite inspired by listening to other premies talk about their experiences. If he bans that, you can only get it from him and therefore one wouldn't get the mistaken idea that one should be grateful to another being besides M. 4. But most of the premies I have known, including me, were miserable much of the time, just living for the next program where we might get high, once again. It didn't really work. It really was like a kind of addiction, just focusing on getting the next hit, and then crashing at some point afterwards. For me, that stopped working entirely at one point, and then all the other problems surrounding BM, and the huge cost to me that following him incurred, came to the forefront, and I became an ex-premie. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:26:40 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: JW Subject: What exactly is a 'master'? Message: JW, At some point I dropped the need to equate the degree of love I felt to my degree of longing or pain of separation from the beloved. Since then, I am becoming much more free of the attachment and guilt that went along with my Master/student 'relationship' (which was not really a relationship). There is an inherent duality in the master/student relationship which runs counter to the teaching that everything you need is present in you and there is no separation and no personality that occupies your center other than your own true self, and that is what I believe now. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:23:02 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: bftb Subject: That's a good question! Message: Hey bftb, You ask really good questions and I usually try and answer them, but I am not sure what to say in answer to this one. I came from the period where we thought Maharaji was the 'Perfect Master' - the one person on the planet who completely had mastered the Knowledge and could show it to other people. I still think that this is what Maharaji himself thinks, but I don't think it's taught that way anymore. Thus it's confusing. I think some premies need to attempt to answer this one. You might check out VP's video review of 'A Good Friend' (not sure if that's the exact title) below, for some more clues courtesy of the man himself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:04:13 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: That's a good question! Message: Katie, On the outside of the video, the sticker says 'A Good Friend', but when the video starts playing, the title flashes on as 'The Journey is the Destination.' I am not sure which title is correct, but it deals with the question of what a master is. More for bftb: M says that a teacher can tell you that a musical note is a C flat, but a master can tell you what to do with the C flat. M says that the master is a very good friend. We are never supposed to be shy to take from the master. (I went wild when I heard that. I was about to call M and ask for the house in Malibu...or Jim's inheritence!) I was watching this with a friend last night. This person knows nothing about M. He said, 'That guy is saying nothing. He says a lot, but he never tells you exactly, specifically WHAT a master is supposed to do for you.' My friend also said that this is what fortune tellers do. They tell you these certain things that can pertain to everyone, and yet you feel as if they were said entirely for your benefit. My friend was really surprised that I didn't see through the entire thing as being about money. When M says that within the relationship with him, one is giving and the other one is taking, my friend said, 'That is true, you are giving him the money and he is taking it!!' My friend is not a cynical person, and said that he didn't appreciate what he perceived M as doing--using the human longing and trust to his advantage. My friend really took issue with the part where M says that the student is not worth of the gift from the master. If is is already in you, how could you not be worthy? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:52:34 (EST)
From: Mickey the Musician Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: VP Subject: That's a good question! Message: Sheesh, now I KNOW he's not the master. A C flat is actually a B. I thought he played the piano! I guess he went as far with music lessons as he did with school. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:27:29 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: bftb Subject: master's new definition! Message: My feeling is that it's just part of the whole rhetoric. M doesn't want to say anymore that he is the Lord, Hari etc, except when he gets carried away for some reasons, but that's usually censored from the video tapes. Maybe you remember the quote I've already posted a few time, when he said he is Hari (1990 in India) .... From all his discourses the impression you finally get is that it's a mere synonym for Lord or whatever. All these discussions about the fact he is 100% into it, that he has 'realized' k, etc are in fact ways of discussing what the Lord really is in premies mind. Some way of discussing doubts, because most of the premies have lots of doubts (m addresses this issue too quite often). As I know he is a mere charlatan, I don't have any problem with this anymore. I now understand the whole rhetoric, like trying to present Darshan and Pranam as 'paying respect' to the 'Master' as a mere re-definition of words, some new programming for premies, hammering of new concepts, etc, in order to make the whole story more palatable. Indian mythology is not the trend anymore, he tries to move to some more new-age type language ..... I find it very transparent. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:39:49 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Jean-Michel, Richard, all Subject: master, guru Message: In 1970 when I first saw a poster advertising guru maharaj ji (he was 12 or so) I raised my hand, pointed at the poster, and walked over to get a closer look saying, 'That's it. That's it.' The big print said, 'I CAN SHOW YOU GOD.' It was a year before I ended up in satsang. After reading the fine print I judged that whoever had made that bold statement was now equivocating and I had heard enough of that from Ashley Montague and Alan Watts, et al. Well, a couple of months after that first time in satsang he showed me, unequivocally. The mahatma was Fakiranand, a fierce and uncompromising old man as some may know from his later exploits. I had not yet been initiated in a knowledge session. I should also say that Fakiranand was very attentive. I was probably one of his bigger mistakes. Or maybe i just don't get it. I had just raised my head from the carpet having never before been inclined to do such a thing as bow or pranam. It was completely out of my control as had been the previous minute or so. No one could possibly have known what had just happened. Mahatma Fakiranand pointed his uncompromising finger at me and said, 'You, any confusion?' My whole head was in the form of the word confusion but I said, 'I don't know.' He said, 'Well, find out.' and left. In my estimation the guru is the one who can do it. Not the one who talks about it. Guru Maharaj Ji went on to prove his power again and again. Thank you. I need this, please. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:00:44 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: charles Subject: master, guru Message: Hi Charles - I am confused as why you are attributing this power to Guru Maharaji (I assume that when you say 'Guru Maharaji' you are referring to the actual person - Prempal Rawat is his real name.) I also had an experience of 'mind-reading' by a mahatma in my knowledge selection session, but I don't atttribute that to Maharaji - I attribute it to the mahatma himself. I have never had a supernatural experience of any kind associated with Maharaji, but others on here have. I still don't think that makes him the perfect master. Interested in what you feel about this. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:26:35 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: bftb Subject: What exactly is a 'master'? Message: Dear bftb, I don't know about the way all the gurus in India view each other. I wonder if they peacefully co-exist or try to steal devotees from each other or endorse one another if they value the message? But there are Master craftsmen, Master Artists, etc and these are people who are tops in their fiel and respected by others who work in the same medium. Maybe gurus are diferent but I don't see any other guru looking up to BM, not even his brother. Personally I think that we do posess many amazing gifts inside and many here speak of seeing light or feeling the word before they ever heard of M and I know myself that I have had meditational experience since becoming an ex through actual meditation and spontaniously through no effort of my own. BM has NO connection to those experiences for me. He is the master of his golden toliet/throne. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 22:39:46 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Seeing the light! Message: Robyn, I have never talked about this to you or on the forum, but when I was young, I saw light. I used to see it a lot, even lay in bed and watch it before going to sleep at night. I can remember it very vividly. When I first heard about M's 'divine light', I thought that was what he was talking about. As a child it was much more spontaneous. I didn't have to get into a position or go within. I could lie there in bed and see the light!! I wish I could still do it like that. As we get older, all of our senses are less effective. For instance, I also remember being able to smell things much better when I was younger than I can now. (I also remember being able to run all day long. My mum would call out, 'Aren't you getting tired?' and I would think, 'What does tired mean?' Ahh, the good old days!) I think the light is like that sense of smell. As we get older, we have to use so many more filters to take in the world around us without going crazy and we have a harder time getting back to the simple things. That is why M's message was so appealing to me, anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:39:03 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: VP Subject: Seeing the light!naturally Message: My dad used to place his fingers on my eyes toward the center and upward and talk to me about the light you could see! He did it in part to help relieve my headaches which I frequently had as a child. I also used to breathe all night through a small clean peice of cloth (blankie)that I held to my face in exactly the position for light technique, except that the outer fingers rested on my cheeks and my tongue relaxed against my teeth. It was naturally soothing and caused a relaxing into my breath similar to the aim of 'focus'. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 18:13:46 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Carol Subject: Seeing the light!naturally Message: And you didnt have to make vows, do service or assist with propogaton. Sarcasm aside, how wonderful, you little angel! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:03:19 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: bftb Subject: 'Masters of the Mat' Message: bftb: I've been doing a little light reading from the Shri Paramhansa Advait Mat on the 'Tradition of the Sadguru,' which is aptly named. Anon has suggested that I write an entry on this material. Here is a fairly typical passage, on page 18: 'Our scriptures and the sayings of the Great Masters reiterate this very truth [contained in Tulsidas' view expressed in 'Utter Kand' of Shri Ramayana, that 'None can cross the worldly ocean without the help of the Guru...'] that without the grace of the perfect Master, on cannot acquire the spiritual knowledge, because they alone are the possessors of this knowledge.' So, ultimately this is the crux of the matter. Knowledge is a possession, and the franchise belongs to someone. Control over it passes by succession, but since there are considerable rewards attached to being the Sadguru succession is frequently a contested affair. 'The Master' does other things, but it's pretty clear that without this franchise he would be compelled to rely on other claims (such as character, or ethical manifestations) to gird his divine status. In my opinion another passage contains the key to the 'charismatic' aspect of the Master's status. 'Charisma,' according to Weber again, must be connected to something extraordinary. It is linked to the concept of magic, and those who can perform magic are invested with charisma. 'The devotion to spirit, which is also called spiritual knowledge, cannot be acquired without the company of the Great Saints. This is called super knowledge. If we take into consideration the literal meaning of this word [knowledge], it means 'far far away.' In other words this supreme knowledge is beyond the scope of the organs of action and cognition, beyond all the senses and their vices, as well as beyond the power of the gods and goddesses.' The succession of Masters of the Mat is precisely the same as the succession of what Weber calls 'Mystagogues,' which are closely linked to traditions of magic and magicians. The concept that the knowledge is 'beyond the scope of the organs' is protection against scrutiny as to the universal, and possibly rather mundane, nature of the experience. At any rate, the primary trick is that knowledge is a special and extraordinary creation of the Master, is maintained by him, and is dispensed according to his inscrutable purposes. It is possible that knowledge is extraordinary by today's standards, but if it is attainable by everyone then the 'typical' experience by which we measure what is regarded as 'extraordinary' will change; so that what now seems extraordinary will become quite ordinary. In that event something more substantial will be needed to define charisma. However, even within the tradition of the Sant Mat the 'second Master' Shri Swarup Anand Ji Maharaj's successor was not Maharaji's father (Shri Hans Ji Maharaj) but a fellow by the name of Vairag Anand Ji Maharaj. This fellow's successor, who would be in parallel with Maharaj Ji (or Maharaji), was and is Beant Anand Ji Maharaj. This underscores the fact that BM's title is under a significant cloud, even within the tradition upon which his claims are directly based. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:39:31 (EST)
From: Charles Email: None To: Scott T. & Katie Subject: 'Masters of the Mat' Message: Long after I had gone through that overwhelming and utterly untouchable, by me, experience with Mahatma Fakiranand and well after my spiritually slothful ways had taken effect I was loaned a book by a friend of mine. It was a translation of the Anurag Sagar by Kabir. I did not ask for the book. I was not looking for the book, and so far as I can recall we had not been discussing anything that would have had a direct bearing on the contents of the book. I believe he just wanted me to look at it and tell him what I thought. It was published by the Sant Bani Ashram in Sanbornton, NH. This ashram has nothing to do with Prem Pal Singh Rawat aka GMJ. The paintings reproduced in this little paperback were the only graphic representations of what I saw and went through on that day in 1971. I later found out that this book and Kabir and the Sant Bani Ashram were connected with the Sant Mat tradition. Katie: I never have been able to find out just who was the author of that experience. It was clear that Mahatma Fakiranand was part of it even after it moved out of the space of that house in Portland, OR. I would like to go into all that happened that night/day but it was quite a lot and I want permission to bore you. Maybe this won't bore YOU. Maybe it won't bore any of you. I am calming down right now out of respect for what I have gotten into. I am also excited about the possibility of discussing an experience that I have never gotten any meaningful or helpful feedback about. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:45:54 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Charles Subject: to Charles in Telluride Message: Please don't worry about boring us! I'd like to hear what you experienced. (By the way, I didn't receive knowledge from Fakiranand, but I can't remember the name of my mahatma! All I know is that he was someone who didn't usually come to the US, and I think he ended up going back to India with Mata Ji and BalBhagwan Ji.) P.S. Recently I have been watching some Maharaji videos as 'service' for the ex-premies on this site, and if you think anything can be more boring than those videos... (I'm kidding, but they are pretty boring!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 21:54:27 (EST)
From: Charles of Telluride Email: None To: Katie, Jude, and others Subject: to Charles in Telluride Message: I was in satsang in a house in Portland, OR. I had been following Mahatma Fakiranand since Seattle. We were singing Lord of the Universe when I noticed him looking at me then looking at the altar where Guru Maharaj Ji's picture was displayed. It seemed to me that he was saying to Maharaj Ji, 'Look at him. Look at how pathetic he is.' He was, as I saw it, making an appeal on my behalf. The next thing I knew this power was flowing into my throat or throat chakra and it was filling and changing me into an angel. I grew to about 14 feet in height and my voice changed so that it sounded like claps of thunder. At that point I began to worry that I might be scaring the other people in the room. Just then I saw Mahatma Fakiranand a short distance in front of me floating in a dark void and beckoning. I took flight to get to him and when I reached him he disappeared as well as my wings. In fear and confusion I started to fall. Just then a hand grabbed me by the back of the neck like one would pick up a kitten and lifted me faster and faster across a great distance, like I was crossing the universe. As I rose shells similar to stages of a rocket slipped away. Each of them corresponded to a faculty of my personality: Intellect, Doubt, and ... I do not remember the other one or two that were left behind. At the end of the journey I was put into a body of light; that is, it was not radiant light, it was a body and I was indistinguishable from it. It was aqua in color, warm, and compassionate. I was free. I did a double back spin and declared, 'I'm free. At last I'm finally free, free of Jesus.' I floated or hovered for a moment and then decided that I wanted to be with others who it seemed to me were not far off. I took flight again and the next thing I knew I was falling out of that light in a burst of flame into the darkness from which I had come. Just as I entered the dark I felt a family in the near distance and knew I was in the presence of the divine. The move to prostrate was as natural as the movement of my adam's apple when swallowing. It was then that I looked up and saw Mahatma Fakiranand's finger pointing at me. My head was in the veritable shape of the word confusion and he was asking me, 'You, any confusion?' 'I don't know.' I dissembled. 'Well, find out!' and he left the room without a moments hesitation. So I have had questions about this ever since, but the most urgent one was, what were they doing in the dark instead of in the light? Since then other things have happened that Guru Maharaj Ji could be more clearly linked to and I am feeling a little weak or over-whelmed or both. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for listening to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 22:44:37 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Charles of Telluride Subject: to Charles in Telluride Message: Dear Charles - thanks very much for sharing your story. I really appreciate that you felt comfortable enought to tell it to us. I didn't have as intense experience as you did with Mahatma Fakiranand, but I remember being really afraid to ask a question in my knowledge session, and really wanting to, and all of a sudden the Mahatma turned to me directly and said 'YES?' This knocked me out. However, I know this is small compared to what you experienced, and I don't really know what to say, except have you ever thought that all that was within you - and was just called out by the presence of Fakiranand? (Leave him and Maharaji out of it for a moment, and consider that). I hope you feel OK about telling all of us your story. Thanks for doing that. Love, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 11:44:38 (EST)
From: Charles Email: None To: Katie Subject: Fakiranand,etc. Message: That fear was exactly what I felt when I looked up at him that day and why I did't respond directly to his question. He was the one who ran about in this joyous childlike way in any kind of presence of Guru Maharaj Ji - pictures included. And he seemed drunk on it a lot. He also was the one who when he came to Shri Sant Ji Maharaj was a guru in his own right with a following numbering around 1000. I couldn't get the smallest thing past him. Actually, I feel an abiding affection for him. Notwithstanding his severity he was there for me and presumably for each and all of us and was committed to our awakening. He fit and fits my idea of a guru quite well. But it is also true that he came to Guru Maharaj Ji of his free will and brought all of his disciples along bidding them prostrate at Maharaj Ji's feet. He is also the one who took a hammer to the guy who put a pie in Guru Maharaj Ji's face. He set the guy up in mock knowledge session. And, as for that obvious transgression on conventional values, Tilopa or Naropa or Marpa or even Milarepa were far from examples of social grace and style. In varying degrees they are reported to have run rough shod over everyone else's notions of propriety and morality Milarepa being the least shocking. But back to this humdrum existence I occupy and the likelihood that all of that was within me or available to me and that Mahatma just facilitated it. Well, all of my transcendent experiences up to that time had been drug induced and only recently, other than connected directly to GMJ or DLM, have I had any experience of myself other than as a worker, member of a community and theatre company. Acting has been the most mind/soul expanding experience I have been involved in for years. I tend to be resistant to anything out of my control. So I just hesitate to..., hmm. Maybe, just maybe. I reiterate: I am glad I am here typing this and thinking about this and you are reading it. I haven't given it much attention. And right now I seem to be very often either crying or laughing and this even in the company of friends which is way out of my usual range. Thanks again, Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:21:52 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Charles of Telluride Subject: to Charles in Telluride Message: Charles: This experience sounds similar in some respects to something that happened to me in 1969. I was 'out' for only a brief period of time, not more than a moment, but recall doing the back flips and connecting emotionally to the Blood Sweat and Tears lyric: 'Freedom tastes of reality,' as though it was summing up the experience. The 'stages' were much quicker and I felt it as a sort of general acceleration of my... what... self, like a big frequency shift. I also had the distinct sensation that I was 'outside' in a multidemnsional world looking back into a pathetically 'flat' three-D world. It shook me up for years. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:23:51 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Blood Sweat and Tears Message: That was Blood Sweat and Tears, what a name. Lost in the foggy ruins of time. Freedom tastes of reality - one taste, one color. That describes it for sure. I left that house that afternoon and walked down the sidewalk with my eyes closed because I knew all that occurred here arose from that compassionate light and that I was cared for. That night crashing on someone's couch I awoke to hear premies or wanna be premies around the kitchen table discussing what Guru Maharaj Ji wanted of us. (I was still not a premie because I had not completed the all important knowledge session. It seemed to me that formally speaking the cart had come before the horse.) I arose from the couch still flashing and made my way to the kitchen door to tell them, 'He just wants us to play like babies at his feet.', and flashed back to the couch. What a long strange trip it's been. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:36:16 (EST)
From: bobby Email: bobby2@mindspring.com To: charles Subject: BST no. I think it's the Who Message: I think the 'freedom tastes of reality' is from the Who and the Tommy album. The song is 'I'm free'. 'I'm free. I'm free. And freedom tastes of reality. I told what it takes to reach the highest heights You'd laugh and say nothing that's simple. But you've been there so many times before Messiahs pointed to the door but no one had the guts to leave the temple.' I've listened to this album many times. I think Pete Townsend was inspired by some experiences he had with Meher Baba. The one song on the album, Amazing Journey, affected me really powerfully when I got into it back in 1969. Still speaks to me today. 'Sickness will surely take the mind, Where minds can't usually go, Come on the amazing journey and learn all you should know.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 13:14:22 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: bobby Subject: BST no. I think it's the Who Message: Bobby: You are right about the Who, of course. There was another lyric from BST that I can't quite recall, but both were in my mind. I think the BST lyric had something to do with 'heaven ringing' or 'heaven rings,' but who knows. I was in a sorry state. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 16:04:12 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: bobby Subject: the Who,Your'e right! Message: Hi Bobby, I hope you are doing alright! I also recognized the lyrics from 'I'm Free'. Maybe the line is used in BS&T too,I'm not familiar with them. I heard the Tommy album for the first time on my first time taking LSD! It was mind blowing and showing and heart-opening! I used LSD reverently and ritually to further my spiritual experience. I used to find messages in many songs that were meanigful to my growth. Some of them also helped set me up to accept a 'master' !For example: the part 'I get excitement at your feet' and 'from them, I get opinions, from you, I get the story' and so on. And the song 'Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody get together try to love one another right now....Some may come and some may go, we shall surely pass, When the one who left us here returns for us at last..We are but a moments sunlight,fading on the grass..' (By ?) And Jethro Tull:'All the places I've been make me glad that got me some time to be in on the inside...and inside with you. I'm sittin' in a corner feelin' glad, got no money comin' in but I can't feel sad..I don't worry 'bout a thing because I've got it made, here on the inside, outside's so far away.' Actually this one doesn't require a master although it could a recognition of God within. Or maybe it was just about a girlfriend, but I don't think so! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 16:42:06 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Carol Subject: the Who,Your'e right! Message: Whatever happened to Jethro Tull? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 22:10:03 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jude Subject: Tull Message: Jude: I friend of mine who revered Jethro Tull [the band, not the inventer of the seed drill] and Ian Anderson went to see them recently. Anderson still stands on one leg and plays the flute, but his voice is gone. He is heavily into Keltic music, and my friend was extremely disappointed with the concert, and walked out long before the end. He felt the music very boring. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 21:51:26 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Carol Subject: the Who,Your'e right! Message: 'Everybody Get Together, Right Now' was by The Youngbloods and was written by Jesse Colin Young. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 21:45:36 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: bobby Subject: BST, it came to me finally. Message: Bobby: The reason I got mixed up is that the BST lyric was [approximately], '... and shows you the colors that are REAL.' The word 'real' in the song reverbs. The two lyrics sort of merged into one, as though they had come from the same mind or underlying idea. Freedom tastes of reality,.. and that reality will show you the colors that are real and true. 'Color,' is actually a cognitive capacity that is very similar to taste, as well as touch, and one can use similar words in a description. The fact that these three 'neurocharms' are linked [according to Fred Turner] is probably [according to my experience] due to the fact that all of our neurocharms are linked to that 'outside' reality. Our senses are like strings that have become badly out of tune, but can apparently resonate with the genuine reality from which they are derived. Jim would call this pure speculation, but I'm not attached to anyone believing in it exactly. Just trying to work it out for myself. I'll set up the equation later. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 21:49:14 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Scott T. Subject: BST, it came to me finally. Message: The BS&T song you are thinking of is 'Spinning Wheel.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 22:03:55 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: BST, it came to me finally. Message: Michael: The BS&T song you are thinking of is 'Spinning Wheel.' Of course! Thanks! -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 22:20:12 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Scott T. Subject: BST, it came to me finally. Message: Mickey the Pharisee and Guru Mariachi are always happy to answer your pop-music questions! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 03:19:47 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: sensory differences Message: Scott, Have you read about parasthesias? There are people who taste shapes or hear colors, and this without mind-altering substances. I enjoy reading about the experiences of people with neurological differences. Books by Oliver Sacks like 'The Man who Thought his Wife was a Hat' and 'An Anthropologist on Mars' are very interesting. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:24:27 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Charles of Telluride Subject: to Charles in Telluride Message: Holy shit, Charles! How awesome, and how scary that must have been! Heck, nothing like that ever happened to me, except I once had a run in with a psychodelic snake on some particularly potent White Owsley Patty gave me. Now where do you suppose a fifteen year old girl got that... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:40:31 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Owsley mellow yellow Message: I ended up in King County Hospital psych ward. That's where I woke up three days later positively swimming in thorazin. A little ridicule for the head psychiatrist and I was back on the street again. 15 years old. That sure sounds like the sixties or the nineties in Telluride. But I don't play anymore. I'm afraid I won't get back. I mean the last time I took MDMA i wondered if handling the day to day would be possible. This buddha named Steve who suffers my presence turned to me that night last September while we were watching a movie about Sarajevo and said, 'You know, you can feel like this without this stuff.' I did go on to discover the truth of that in the days when all this started back in December and I started doing meditation again and reading religious books and sleeping on a mat. So here I am crying. Thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:52:24 (EST)
From: bobby Email: None To: charles Subject: Owsley mellow yellow Message: Charles, I wish I was there to speak with you in person because I can really relate to a lot of what you've been saying here. Unfortunately we are worlds apart in physical space. But the wonders of modern telecommunications allow us to have this much communication, a communication that is beautiful for what it is. I've spoken with many, many folks who have had radical non-ordinary experiences. Unlike contemporary psychiatry, based on a conceptualization of awareness that is based on chemical reactions within the brain, I believe with all my heart that many of these experiences have considerable value. Unfortunately, those of us who are vulnerable amidst these sorts of experiences are largely treated as pathologies. It's been a big part of my life work to deal with the psychiatric system. For now, however, I gotta focus on healing my cancer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 16:07:32 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Potent experience! Message: Oh yeah, that first trip and first hearing of the then NEW album Tommy was on laboratory grade Green Osli. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:16:03 (EST)
From: bobby Email: bobby2@mindspring.com To: Charles of Telluride Subject: to Charles in Telluride Message: I've based my entire life on the kind of experiences you describe. My experiences were powerful indeed and I could *never* deny them because they truly had to do with my very existence. I had a near-death experience in 1969, followed by six months of what I consider as authentic spiritual visions. I was psychiatrically hospitalized and abused physically and emotionally during the heights (and depths) of these visions. These experiences happened before my involvement with Maharaji. My experiences with Knowledge and Maharaji were an important part of my life journey, but only a part and by no means the totality. I don't regret my involvement even though it entailed a *lot* of distancing from au courant social forms. As CSN sang in their song Marrakech Express: 'I left years ago it quite nearly killed me.' After more than 30 years I'm still rather far gone but have made it my business to come back and make my statements. You can read a brief autobio and account of some of my experiences visions at: A Spiritual Emergence Journey http://www.well.com/user/bobby/SC/imich17.html Right now I'm going through yet another major life crisis (I've had many). I just learned two weeks ago that I have advanced cancer in my neck and throat. I think I'm gonna pull through but I may not. Changes are coming fast and furious every day. The version of the journey I posted at the above address is rather dated as a lot has happened on many levels since I wrote the piece 3 1/2 years ago. Also, the piece is considerably abbreviated in terms of what I have to say about what I have experienced. I have a lot more to say and when I get through this cancer I'll find the ways to say it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:28:26 (EST)
From: bftb Email: None To: bobby Subject: to Charles in Telluride Message: Bobby, I was happy to see a post from you as I've always enjoyed your honest postings and have found you to be one of the very decent people around here. I am very saddened to hear of your illness.You WILL pull through. My thoughts and prayers are with you. God Bless. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:39:31 (EST)
From: bobby Email: None To: bftb Subject: to Charles in Telluride Message: Thank you btfb. I really appreciate your kind remarks. At root I think I will pull through too, though sometimes lately it's hard to see. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:35:53 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: bobby and charles Subject: to Charles and Bobby Message: I e-mailed Bobby and asked him to respond Charles' posting about his experience because I know he'd had similar experiences, and I thought that it might benefit Charles to read Bobby's story. I thank you very much for answering, Bobby, and I'm really sad to hear about your throat cancer. I wish there was something more I could do or say. Love to you, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:42:22 (EST)
From: bobby Email: None To: Katie Subject: to Charles and Bobby Message: For those so inclined, I appreciate being remembered in people's prayers. Good wishes and love are appreciated too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 19:04:12 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: bobby Subject: Get well soon Bobby Message: I am very sorry to hear that you have this illness to overcome, Bobby. My thoughts are with you right now and I wish you a speedy recovery. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:23:08 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: bobby Subject: to Charles and Bobby Message: Dear Bobby My wishes and love to you now. You are not alone. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:58:08 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: bobby Subject: to Charles and Bobby Message: Bobby, I am sorry to hear of your illness, and I will include you in my prayers. I will also add your name to the prayer lists of the churches at which I serve. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:28:09 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: bobby Subject: spiritual emergence - bobby Message: Thank you Katie! Bobby: I have just completed my first reading of Spiritual Emergence Journey. I was repeatedly swept away to tears and keening and the little hand movements of the insane. Just writing this puts me in it again. I don't know how to express my gratitude and respect except by sharing and letting you know that I will and am praying for you before the Divine Mother. She helped me once just before one of my trips to the Hotel Washington. I owe her my devotion and am happy to give it. I bow before your courage and strength. I, in far more brief and less intense ways, went through much of what you have shared. I did the EST Training while I was still going to festivals in Miami and for a moment connected to how every movement I made had an impact on the whole world. It was a direct experience of that line from Walt Whitman: 'I am large. I contain multitudes.' though I have been willing (this est lexicon is everywhere in my writing and speaking) to be quite small. I have said this before here but I think I will not repeat it to ill effect. I am obsessive about communicating. I am also gravely disappointed in how little many of the people I know and see want to do the same. I am often upbraided for being too intense. Of course I am also shunned and I most often blame myself for it thinking that I am too peculiar or irrelevant or shy to be talked to. The only one I really talk to is my friend Steve, the one I call a buddha. He just looks at me and I think he is daring me to really be with him. He hears this chirping sound and I have heard it too. He also has been in deep physical pain for years and said once to me, 'Pain will put you on the fast track.' When I returned to earth I thought it was best represented by those christian paintings of the fall of Lucifer. I also had this experience one day in what seemed to be the most unlikely circumstances: I was on a city bus on first avenue, Seattle and I was furious over being foiled at every turn. I challenged the powers that be by telling them, him, her that I wanted to know the truth no matter how devastating it might be. In the next instant I was seeing that love moved absolutely everything and everyone. Now, as ever, I have the impossible task of bringing this and all of it to practice from moment to moment. So far I would say that I am a remarkable failure, but in my guilt ridden and thus clumsy way I try. Oh, as for health. I have been doing these yoga exercises that I have ample reason to think are magical. They are called The Five Tibetans and are available under that title. If you want to send me your address at Charles deWinter, P.O. Box 71, Telluride, CO 81435 I will be happy to send you a copy of them as I have an extra. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. I surely send you my love and healing thoughts. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 19:15:04 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Charles Subject: 'Masters of the Mat' Message: Long after I had gone through that overwhelming and utterly untouchable, by me, experience with Mahatma Fakiranand Dear Charles, I am glad you are here too. I must have missed your post about this, could you re-iterate the experience you refer to ( if you don't mind)? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:44:11 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Charles Subject: 'Masters of the Mat' Message: Please continue. BTW,I was in the Portland community. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 19:26:08 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Carol Subject: Masters of the Mat,Portland Message: What does BTW mean? I had followed Mahatma Fakiranand from Seattle. He went on to Salem and I hitchhiked back to Seattle. I know it was in a warm time of the year. The house was a nice old one in a neighborhood northwest of the city center. It wasn't far. It could be easily walked to and it was on a gradual upward slope heading west. I think it was around late summer or early fall 1971 since it was warm and light late into the day. I stayed in an apartment that was in the upstairs of a house and belonged to a guy with dark hair. One entered the apartment into the livingroom and the entrance to the kitchen was across the livingroom and to the left. This house was not far from the house where I was initiated and listened to satsang. I suppose this is an appropriate place to mention this thing about me and satsang. While I was in the Hotel Washington about two years before I saw a picture in an old National Geographic of a gathering of buddhist monks in a forested place in southeast asia. The caption said they were listening to satsang. I presumed that satsang had disappeared from the world and bemoaned the fact that I would never get to attend since I sure wished I could. I kept writing that word and everytime I did I wanted to tell that story. I think the guy who owned the apartment was named Mark. I remember him having dark wavey or curly hair. It's funny but writing about this so seemingly mundane affair is such an emotional space for me. I am taken back there and I just break down. I also think I remember the house where I was initiated as being green and some yellow or... It was on the right side of the street as one walked to it from town. I know I returned to Portland later connected with DLM but it was years later and I only remember it because I returned with a woman i was getting involved with and with my wife Karen. That was the end of my marriage to Karen. That would be part of the story of what happened after. Maybe I'm getting senile and trying to return to a happy time in my life. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 15:33:02 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: charles Subject: Masters of the Mat,Portland Message: There were only a handful of premies in Portland in 1971: Jan, Dotty, Mark Mays, Tom MacNab are some I remember. I came around in summer '72 and there were many more following M's visit. Mark had dark curly hair and was a very shining premie. He later became a pilot and also had a serious disease and is now deceased, but I forgot if he died in a crash or from the disease. I am glad I got to know him. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 16:16:03 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Carol Subject: Masters of the Mat,Portland Message: Carol: So his name was Mark and yes I remember him as supportive and tolerant. I am amazed I was able to remember all that. It just started coming to me. Thank you for asking me to do it. Charles. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 15:34:37 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: charles Subject: Masters of the Mat,Portland Message: Oh, BTW means 'By the way' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:53:16 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: To Scott Message: Dear Scott, Letters I've written, never meanin' to send... did you read my post to you about 'my life as a dog?' (sorry Selena, it is yours, I'll just borrow it one more time, pretty please??woof?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 19:04:12 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jude Subject: To Scott Message: Jude: I didn't read that post. Have been very busy for the past few weeks, and will be, off and on, for the next few. I'll check the archives. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 19:09:49 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: To Scott Message: Ok that probably explains my perception of you being off and on! I think I took it personally. Only sent the post a few days ago. Regards - hope your life is going good! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 19:16:44 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: 'Masters of the Mat' Message: So Shri Hans was an imposter, too, huh? I'm not at all surprised. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 21:37:47 (EST)
From: Masters of the Mat Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: reflections Message: 'The devotion to spirit, which is also called spiritual knowledge, cannot be acquired without the company of the Great Saints. This is called super knowledge. If we take into consideration the literal meaning of this word [knowledge], it means 'far far away.' In other words this supreme knowledge is beyond the scope of the organs of action and cognition, beyond all the senses and their vices, as well as beyond the power of the gods and goddesses.' I can from my very small experience of practicing for 18 months 1 hour per day pretty much, relate to where it took me as being somewhere far, far away. That is a good description. But it just didn't seem to 'be anywhere'. I thought, is this god? Is there where I am going after I die? Why bother getting conscious of this place if I am going there anyway - and besides, my consciousness will die, supposedly so I won't be there. What is supposed to happen, really, by me practicing knowledge? When he minimises it by saying it's just to help you enjoy life, that he can only talk from birth to death (and not beyond), even I knew from the old premie stories I heard it was meant to be more than that. It was meant to get you off the wheel and merge with the infinite god consciousness, the creator, the source - and there reside in bliss, samadhi, forever. And that's what I wanted. I don't always feel that absolute, by the way! I'm wondering if the 'saints' will help me to get there anyway, when I am ready, and I don't see that these physical techniques can in any way relate to such a vast concept as that. But it has been good for me, because it clarified for me that I do want to find something in this life, and to be awake, and to grow spiritually and to experience Love. And I do feel more aware now than before I got involved. So if M's teachings are no longer supporting me, I again entrust the true power which has always supported me, before and after I got 'knowledge'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 21:26:37 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: bftb Subject: A master is bullshit Message: I can quite sincerely say that some of my experiences from meditation are far deeper and greater than Maharaji's. Maharaji is not worthy of calling himself a master. It's a con trick. Not at present but in past times, I've experienced extremely deep immersion into two of the techniques. Once, I was deeply immersed into the 'word' for weeks and could not stop meditating on it. I experienced some heavenly although, entirely natural states of being. At another time, when I was making a concerted effort to kick a drug addiction, I experienced nectar for days on end. The experience blew my mind. I would get up in the morning and just dissolve into nectar. The technique became automatic, whenever I wasn't talking and contrary to what Katie once said, you could not tell that I was doing any technique. And I was as high as a kite and truly blissed out like this for days. Now these are just two experiences I've had from meditation and NOT I might add, from following Maharaji. You know I have NEVER heard Maharaji talk about ever having such experiences and listening to him talk about his knowledge I can tell that he has never gotten into any of the techniques. Not only is Maharaji not a master, he is of no use to anyone sincerely trying to get an experience beyond the norm, through meditation. He is a bullshitter and because of his ignorence, he is actually a danger to people if they believe in him. Finally, I don't think such a thing as a 'master' exists. Sure there could be a meditation teacher but a master implies someone who is superior and that is a fallacy. Nobody is superior to us and we have to forge our own path through life. There is no superior master who could have the wisdom or know us well enough to give us such masterly guidance. Help one another, we can do but any mastership is sheer folly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 21:40:37 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Shri David, Jack of Monterey Message: Dear David - I am sorry that I said that about the nectar technique (that it makes people look weird). Maybe it was just that general 70's premie weirdness. I promise to buy and send you a 'cheesehead' the next time I am in Wisconsin, to make up for it (if you want one, that is! Your kids would like it. I am not sure what I would put on the customs form, though!) Anyway, since I never experienced anything by practicing nectar, I've been quite fascinated by your experiences with it. Wish you'd been around to give satsang in the early 70's - it would have helped a lot of us! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 21:51:57 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: David Subject: to Sir David Message: I've been looking in the archives for something, and it might interest you to know that the VERY FIRST post in archive II (after we stopped using the newsgroup) is from David Simpkiss. Its title is 'Bullshit'. Take care, David, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 06:47:21 (EST)
From: Sir David of Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Katie Subject: to Sir David Message: I'd love a cheesehead Katie, whatever it is. ANything sent by your fair hand would be appreciated. Thanks. Regarding the 'bullshit'. It's a rather nasty little word but I think it does express quite nicely, in two syllables, just what is meant. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 22:22:34 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Sir David Subject: A master is bullshit Message: David, I don't understand the nectar thing, still. I just can't make it work without feeling uncomfortable-it seems like a totally unnatural position for my tongue. Light can be damn uncomfortable, too, (I did stop pushing on my eyes, but my arm gets tired) but the light is cool when I get the position right. Maybe it is just me. I do like music. It is the one that I do a lot. I feel like an idiot putting my fingers to my ears like that, so I have to do it in private. I think that I prefer this one, because I have something to listen to and my mind is less likely to wander. I could listen for a loooong time. I also enjoy the breath thing. Did it once while watching clouds instead of with my eyes closed THAT was cool!! Missed my calling as a hippie, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:46:38 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: VP Subject: A master is bullshit Message: Hi VP, Back when I was still practicing, I enjoyed the music technique a lot, too. However, I did not like sticking my thumbs in my ears and the creaking that ensued. I discovered that if I used these pink wax earplugs, it would seal the ear canal, cut out much of the noise around me and I could concentrate on the 'music.' I used to argue with people about whether they were experiencing the music or tinnitis! Try the ear plugs, though; they work well. Michael Finished a paper on the Nestorians in 1998. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:58:19 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: A master is bullshit Message: Thanks for that advice, Michael. I actually have some pink waxy stuff lying around here somewhere... If I had a baragon then I wouldn't have to worry about my arms falling asleep either. (I'd LOVE to have one of those- I could really freak some people out by having one lying around my place.) It must be the musician in you that liked the music, huh? I laughed so hard when I read your 'C flat is really B' post above! Keep up your sense of humor. Glad that your papers are going well. BTW, Did your jogging friend know my relative? (or did you ask?) VP Seeking baragon in '98 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:06:52 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: VP Subject: A master is bullshit Message: Yo VP, ol' boy! Yes, my jogging partner does know your relative! And even stranger, an RLDS seminary in Iowa or someplace wanted my pal to come be their Dean; all was forgiven, they didn't mind that he had been hanging out with Episcopalians, but he decided to stay here in beautiful Berkeley. I'm finished with the semester, and I may be having a beer with CD tomorrow night. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:14:20 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Mickey and CD Message: Hey Michael - if you really do meet CD, tell him that Katie (and VP too, I'm sure) say hello! I still don't quite believe that CD exists in the material world, but I'm sure he'll forgive me for that! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:19:42 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Katie Subject: Mickey and CD Message: I will pass on the message, and I think he does exist as he left an actually message on my phone machine today! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:26:09 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Mickey and CD Message: Tell him 'hey' for me (and for VP) and tell him I will buy him a beer (or whatever) if he's ever in the 'Show Me' state. (If I'm in San Diego, I will expect him to return the favor!). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:51:18 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: My message to CD Message: Mickey, If you actually meet CD will you ask him seomething for me too? Ask him if he's afraid to actually discuss things here on the forum. Ask him why he can often talks around subjects in the vaguest terms? Ask him if he's surprised at how that frustrates anyone trying to communicate with him? Ask him if he gives a damn about that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 20:54:25 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Jim Subject: My message to CD Message: Sheesh Jim, I wish I had seen this post several hours ago. I've just returned from walking CD back to his hotel. We had a pleasant afternoon playing guitars, drinking beer, and listening to music. He had some tapes and CDs of the latest Visions Int. music, and I played him my own stuff. We had some decent conversation, and I also met his mom and brothers. He's a nice enough guy, and we really didn't talk about BM too much. He's a premie and is happy to be a premie, and I don't want to be a premie. It was a nice afternoon. But it's too late to ask him those questions now; maybe he'll post later and you can ask him again. P.S. Katie and VP, I gave him your regards as requested. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:34:10 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Oh THAT CD Message: But it's too late to ask him those questions now; maybe he'll post later and you can ask him again. Mickey, I've no doubt that Chris was exactly as you describe him. Exactly. But that doesn't change the fact that he has fucked with people in infuriating ways persistently on this page. See, we've tried to ask him those questions. Where've you been? Chris doesn't respect dialogue yet he likes to chime in every now and then as if he does. Yeah, I admit, it pisses me off. Look, if you think you've got such a nice mutually respectufl relationship with him, please do me a favour; YOU ask him about his communication here and if he understands why it has frustrated so many people over time. Katie asked him once and he just glared his teeth at her -- it didn't look like a smile to me -- and told her to stay out of it. Sorry, if he's such a nice guy, he wouldn't fuck around the way he has. In truth, he HATES this page, HATES this whole enterprise and completely disrespects people who dare to think and talk freely about Maharaji. You just didn't scratch the surface, in my extremely humble opinion. Go ahead, prove me wrong. Ask him. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 22:59:28 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh THAT CD Message: You're right Jim, I didn't scratch the surface, I didn't even try, I just had a beer with a guy. I think that you're reading a lot into our visit; sometimes people have pleasant yet superficial meetings. We didn't bare our souls, we didn't become best friends, we just had a beer and played guitars. We agreed to disagree on BM and all that. I didn't know that I was the ex-premie emissary for the day. I guess that I failed the cause. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 23:26:00 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Oh THAT CD Message: Mickey, Sorry if I sounded a little heavy. Really I don't want to be like that. In the best of all worlds, there would be no accounts due anyone from days past, etc. etc. Besides, you're not my bill collector. I know that. I'm just frustrated, that's all. Know what I mean? Maybe not. Mickey, I have spent so much time trying to communciate with that guy. So much... you have no idea. So, anyway, did you guys agree to avoid the 'm' word? How'd that happen? I can't see you being afraid of discussing things. Tell me this, though, what's Chris like in a conversation about this, that or the other? Normal, right? Yeah, that's what I expected. Oh well... Jim Stonewalled in '97 (and 98 and maybe, if my memory serves me, the tail-end of '96 as well). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 02:49:54 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh THAT CD Message: Hi, Jim. We didn't agree to avoid the M word, we discussed it because CD wanted to see my Guru records and we listened to some new devotional music. We had to talk about M somewhat since this site is our point of reference, it's where we met. It was just obvious that we weren't going to agree. You're right, I'm not afraid to discuss things, but it was also evident to me that we wouldn't get anywhere arguing about M and K. I did try to get him to explain the video thing to me and I didn't get a satisfactory answer, but I really just wanted to meet him and see what he was like away from his keyboard. I can understand your frustration; I've been reading these posts for about a year now, and I get frustrated too, by the answers and avoidance of the premies, and by my own inarticulation at times. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 17:10:11 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: CD climbs Holy Hill Message: Our meeting was a success. We shared some personality, ideas, music and stories. There was even a short jam. If we had had time for a couple six packs then we could have entertained the definitive discussion with detailed hypothesis for people on this forum and debated approaches to conquering the unsolved riddles of existence. The speaker at the University of California Berkeley School of Engineering commencement ceremonies, which I attended on Saturday before meeing Mike, described how the aliens in Contact had discovered that encoded in the number PI is a message to mankind from the Universe. Then after an interesting discussion of the future ramifications of Moore's Law, Dr. Lucky concluded with the famous old quote: 'We are all Bozos on this bus'. The first Holy Hill summit, overlooking the Berkeley campus, will be remembered as an important meeting. Even though the attendance was small, it proved to me that both premies and ex-premies are fundamentally human beings. I remain optimistic and prefer a smile to a frown. Cheers, Chris Bought the CD of Eric McFadden's hot guitar and curious clown music band at the Starry Plough - Berkeley 98 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 19:36:35 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: CD Subject: to CD - serendipity Message: Hi CD - I hesitate to use the word 'synchronicity' since a variant of it is apparently currently in use in EV circles in Australia (at least), BUT the phrase 'We're all Bozos on this Bus' has been going through my mind for the last couple of days. It reminds me very much of this forum - both premies and ex-premies. You are right that we are all fundamentally human first, and pro and con second. Congrats on the Holy Hill Summit - I hope I can meet both you and Father Mickey some day. (Shoot, maybe someday we can all meet Jim!! THAT would be a summit!) Take care, CD, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 20:42:09 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: CD Subject: to CD - Bozos on the Bus Message: Hi again, CD Re: 'We're all bozos on this bus.' It occurs to me that our fundamental differences could be defined by our answer to whether Maharaji is ON the bus with the rest of us bozos or not. (I at first was going to say - was he driving the bus? - and realized that that didn't matter at all. YOU might be driving, or Father Mickey, or ME or anyone.) Anyway, I think M is one of the bozos on the bus. Not sure what you think. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 21:42:25 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Katie's into the mint julips Message: At least it's not acid, eh? Actually, I think ... no never mind. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Mon, May 25, 1998 at 23:37:06 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim's halfway thru a case of Message: Big Rock Warthog... I did agree with CD about the bozos on the bus (didn't you EVER have that album, Jim?). Of course, maybe I'm starting to think like CD does. If so, what will you do, Jim - deprogram me? Seriously, I thought it was a good question (and it's juleps, not 'julips'). Just so you know. Fondly, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:22:17 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Mickey Subject: Mickey and CD Message: Yes, but resist the 'temptation' to tell CD who I am or anything about me, if you please. I know that you won't, having taken all those vows and all:) Have fun! VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:26:09 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: VP Subject: Mickey and CD Message: Sure, like he doesn't already know that you're that guy who posts fifty times a day, sheesh! :-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:28:02 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Mickey and CD Message: 50, is that all? Somedays are better than others:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:08:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: VP Subject: Redneck baragons Message: Didn't you just KNOW it would be me posting this post? Well, anyway, here's how to make a baragon - the cheap way. You take one of those screw on coffee-table legs and you fit the corresponding fitting to an approximately 1 1/2 - 2 foot long piece of wood. Put it in the center unless you want the premie you are giving it to to fall over when he/she falls asleep during meditation. Then screw the longer piece into the coffee table leg. If you are really nice you will sand the longer piece of wood so the premie won't get splinters. That's your basic redneck baragon. I am sure there are more high-class ones, but I don't know how to make them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:14:13 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Katie Subject: Redneck baragons Message: I had a baragon which was made from a table leg, but the cross part where one's arms rested was padded with a crushed velvet (it WAS the 1970's fer Christ's sake!) cover. The table leg screwed into the arm rest for easy storage. I have no idea what happened to it; I'm just glad that I don't have to explain the damn thing to anyone anymore. Father Mickey Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:21:37 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Redneck baragons Message: Dear Michael - I think what you are describing is a 'California' (a.k.a. 'high-class') baragon. I remember being jealous of people who had those. Your redneck lapsed friend, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:24:56 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Michael Subject: Redneck baragons Message: I think you should have had Elvis painted on that thing for effect. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:28:23 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: VP Subject: Redneck baragons Message: Elvis on black velvet! Oooh, a Memphis baragon! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:28:48 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Redneck baragons Message: I wish I had! Then I might have really have REALIZED something... (No matter what Robyn thinks!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:37:52 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Katie Subject: Redneck baragons Message: You would have realized that you had Elvis under your elbows. I always thought that it would be fun to stage a fight between baragon-wielding premies and cross-swingin' Fundie Christians! We could sell tickets!! SUNDAY! SUNDAY! SUNDAY! IT'S APOCALYPSE WHY AT THE HUSTON ASTRODOME!! THEY FAILED IN '73, BUT THEY'RE BACK TO DEFEND THEIR MASTER'S HONOR!!! PREMIES VS. CHRISTIANS.....BE THERE!!!!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:45:29 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Redneck baragons Message: Michael, you have GOT to see the LOTU video. They have a fundie woman on there who I would pit against any premie. She's pretty formidable - glad I snuck past her on my way out of the Astrodome! P.S. Despite what Robyn (who I love dearly) says, I do not think that Elvis is the Perfect Master (although I HAVE seen velvet paintings of Elvis and Jesus together in heaven - seriously!) I just think he was a great rock and roll/rockabilly singer - wish he could have known that he was too! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 01:23:43 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: None To: Katie Subject: Redneck baragons Message: I wanna see LOTU. Maybe someone will lend it to me when I return from seeing the X-Flies in Panama City at that Bar Mitzvah/Wedding. I am not curious enough to see any of the Elan Vital videos, though; I just don't think I could take it. Network T.V. is bad enough. I know you don't watch TV you holier-than-thou book reader---don't hit me, I was only joking! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 01:36:33 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Redneck baragons Message: Well, Michael dear, if you will e-mail me your address, I will get someone who I know on the West Coast to mail you the video! All you needed to do was ask, you know. We promise not to send any M videos! Your lapsed friend, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 01:01:32 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Redneck baragons Message: Michael: I once picked up a non-standard piece of meditation gear from SRF. It was basically a little bench that went over the back of your ankles and under your butt. Better than trying to assume that yogic position, but not as good as a recliner. (Oh yes, better than a bicycle seat too.) -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 01:13:28 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Redneck baragons Message: I happen to know that that is some kind of Buddhist thang. Not a redneck spiritual accessory AT ALL! Scott, have you forsaken your origins? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 01:18:00 (EST)
From: Mickey the Heretic Hunter Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Scott T. Subject: Redneck baragons Message: Scott, what were you doing hanging out with those apostates at SRF? And buying their stuff??? Sounds like a torture device! My wife and I checked out SRF ages ago. We started the correspondence course so that we could prepare for initiation, but it only took me two lessons to say, 'No, no more of this stuff for me! I've already spent my time in a cult.' What really stopped me was Yogananda's writing about scientific methods and then telling you what kind of blanket to spread on the floor to stop the magnetic waves which would interupt your meditation! His writings were full of nineteenth century science. I must say, I do like your idea about the propeller baragon. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 00:53:04 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: VP Subject: Immanent departure Message: VP: What's cool is to construct a baragon that looks vaguely like a propeller, and then spin it over your shoulder as though you're carrying an umbrella. Gives you that sort of 'I'm just waiting for the clouds to break' look. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 06:30:45 (EST)
From: Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: VP Subject: A master is bullshit Message: I used to make beragons back in 1972. Try using a thick cushion resting on your lap and supporting your elbows. You know the sort of thick, square cushion you get with a setteee (or sofa or whatever they're called there). It's actually more comfortable than a beragon and if you fall asleep you don't get the 'falling off the beragon' danger either. I can usually hear some music but have only really gotten into it in a big way, a few times and it was very beautiful. I'm too restless and impatient to try to meditate on it much. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 07:06:06 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Cheddar Subject: Music Message: Did it take a long time before you heard music, or did it have anything to do with how long you had been practicing for - or how long you spent in practice? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 08:18:01 (EST)
From: Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jude Subject: Music Message: It was a few months after I started meditating that I heard the music. I received K in May 1972 and remember first hearing the music in the Autumn (Fall) of that year. I never practised the technique for too long, about ten minutes was my maximum and what happened is that I'd hear it most loudly when I WASN'T doing the technique. I think a regular 5-10 minute practise of the technique is all that is needed to get to hear it. Maharaji has never explained (to my knowledge) just what one is supposed to hear. But I'd describe it thus; Imagine you're walking towards a fair-ground. Maybe a mile away you'll just hear some vague noise that is indistinct but as you walk closer this noise will become louder and you'll begin to hear reckognisable and definite sounds. As you get closer still, the sounds become clearer and richer and you start to hear a whole cocophony of beautiful sound. The way I'd describe the music would be like the sound of the essence of nature. The sounds are familiar and very touching when you hear them. The few times I've really walked into the fair-ground have brought tears to my eyes, it was so beautiful. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 08:20:47 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Cheddar Subject: Music Message: Wow! Thank you. Once a non-practicing premie told me he thought it was like bird sounds. Then I started practicing, and thought it was finally working and I could hear bird sounds! It was the birds outside! Thankyou so much for sharing because maybe there are these things inside of me, too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 12:11:40 (EST)
From: Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jude Subject: Music Message: It's a pleasure, Jude. These sounds are inside everybody, of course and are not resticted to just premies hearing them. Some doctors have done experiments with students and got them to listen to the silence and a large proportion of those students have heard the music that we speak of. Yes, I've heard somethink akin to birds singing in there, along with bells, flutes and the like but it sounds to me like the overall ESSENCE of nature and is actually more beautiful than just some birds chirping. When I first heard the music, I remembered I'd heard it before. It was like coming home. Often, people who've had near death experiences have heard the music too. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:01:12 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Sir David Subject: Part of a trend. Message: David: Finally, I don't think such a thing as a 'master' exists. Sure there could be a meditation teacher but a master implies someone who is superior and that is a fallacy. This relationship to authority is really pretty new. It came on for a long time, but until the end of World War I monarchies were the rule even in the west, rather than the exception. Robert Nozick's philosophy now probably reaches toward the other extreme, in which metaphysics and spirituality demand complete independence from all forms of coercion and influence. 'The Way of the Saints,' was a valid revolution from the Vedantic austerities that were linked to the Sanskrit scholasticism of the Raj's 'court.' Tulsidas was the first great Indian poet who wrote and spoke in Hindi, the language of the people. It is part of an overall long term progressive or 'liberal' trend. Just thinking out loud. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:05:10 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Part of a trend. Message: Scott, I was going to send you an e-mail but will tell you here instead - I mailed you the video today. Also, GOOD WISHES for your seminar - we will be pulling for you. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:08:42 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Katie Subject: Seminar Message: Katie and VP: Thanks for the good wishes. I'm sure it will help, and I'm scared to death. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:16:49 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Seminar Message: Hi Scott - I know this won't help, but Peter was absolutely scared shitless the first time. The second and third time are easier, and after that it's really simple. Just something to tell yourself if you don't get the job ('it's practice'). I'll be thinking about you. P.S. If they don't hire you they are idiots, IMHO. You can refer them to this forum if you want second opinions! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:19:27 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Seminar Message: Scott, You are brilliant, so don't sweat it! I can't believe that you ever did drugs as you seem to have retained all of your brain cells and at least half of mine. The great thing about fear is that facing it enables us to grow. It sure sucks at the time, though, doesn't it? VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 14:57:50 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Part of a trend. Message: Thank you, Scott, for this and previous postings. I love to increase my understanding and you have helped immensely. I know I am a creature of the moment and fretted over how shallow I must be for not having sufficient regard for the hoary ancient doctrines so imbued with heirarchical ideologies. As a consequence of my distaste for heirarchy I have been drifting toward wicca. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 15:12:34 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: charles Subject: Part of a trend. Message: Charles: I think leadership is still critical. Left to their own devices most people would either not know what action to take or would remain unmotivated. I've said this before, but George Washington is an example of good charismatic leadership. He was reasonably clever, but was not a great intelectual like Jefferson and Adams. But, he could get people to follow him and he knew when to get off the stage, and why. Yeltsin, for intance, lacks many of these qualities. At some point charismatic leaders MUST leave the stage. What they leave behind is often chaos. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 16:41:05 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Part of a trend. Message: Scott T.: I would wholeheartedly concur that leadership is needed since I know how in need of it I have been for both of the reasons you mention. I have gotten most of my direction from the books I have read and even the motivation, but I have also gotten a lot of it altogether outside of recognized or authoritative channels. My dislike for heirarchy is mostly contempt for the power it has retained for itself long after it should have 'left the stage'. In acting that is one of the most contemptible practices. On stage it is most masterful and professional to get out there, give it all you got, and get off. I too am sure that you will have no real trouble with that job bit. I got in on the end of the conversation. I see you as thorough, energetic, and obviously bright. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 24, 1998 at 22:34:03 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: charles Subject: Part of a trend. Message: Charles: Thanks for the compliment, and encouragement. Re: My dislike for heirarchy is mostly contempt for the power it has retained for itself long after it should have 'left the stage'. Indeed, I think this is what differentiates good from bad charisma. The only trouble is that it can be applied only after the fact. Washington gave other, more subtle, signals while he was in power. For instance, he deliberately suppressed his own Federalist opinions. He also had a severe temper that he went to some pains to keep under wraps. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |