Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 9 | |
From: May 21, 1998 |
To: Jun 1, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 02:45:49 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: A premie sent me a video today called the Long Beach Special (it just showed up in my mailbox unexpectedly, I never asked for it), 1 hr. and 48 minutes of BM expounding forth at his Long Beach Program, spliced with love songs from Daya and various others; just had to record a few of my reactions to this ridiculous video. (It said PWK after the title, so I assume only 'People With Knowledge' were privileged to view this, guess I qualified.) The beginning of it shows M in India, walking purposefully in slo mo throughout beautiful grounds, which I assume are his residence; there's a shot of the endless crowd sitting in the hot sun on the ground, while he wanders in slo motion in palatial luxury, interspersed with shots of flowers opening and clouds and that type of thing. My initial impression was one of shock at what incredible luxury he lives in there, when there are literally hundreds of millions of people in India who live in the most unimaginable abject poverty. We don't really get to see him addressing the crowds in India, and after a few more minutes of watching him walk about some hills (are we supposed to think his back is sexy or something?) as it then cuts over to Long Beach and the program there, and the rest of the video alternates between his 'satsang' and love songs to him sung mainly by Daya -- there was not ONE song about anything else but him, how wonderful he is, how they've found their 'heart', etc etc. ad nauseum. If anyone still has any doubts that the devotional thing is in full swing, this video will show what's really still going on. The TOTAL FOCUS of his message was THE MASTER, and how Knowledge will open your heart to what THE MASTER is and can bring you etc. He spoke endlessly of the master and what he is, how special he is etc. etc. I know premies these days try to whitewash this with the 'enjoy your life' and 'knowledge lite' sayings, but really and truly, the focus is BM. How he has the audacity to sit up there and let everyone worship him is beyond me, to say he's just a meditation teacher is a total lie. (Meditation teachers do not allow themselves to be worshipped.) But if this video is any indication, he doesn't bill himself as a meditation teacher anymore; he's THE MASTER and we better all cop to it and show some gratitude. Towards the beginning of the video there's a song from Daya about 'dancing to the rhythm of life' in which everyone is up on their feet and dancing away, and sure enough, he gets up and does the little foxtrot/blessings/out-the-door-quick number which was so popular in the late 70s, and everyone is freaking out once again. I found myself shrieking with laughter!! Boy, NOTHING has changed, just no mala/krishna crown costumes, otherwise, the content of his speech, and this song and dance routine is EXACTLY the same as it always was. The way he sits there giving the eye to whoever's singing (usually Daya, and you're right Joe, it is a pretty incestuous-looking leer), grinning sheepishly while everybody adores him -- I found myself thinking they should issue barf bags standard with this video. He really doesn't say anything much in his talks, but sort of shouts them with this condescending, angry tone in his voice, repeating statements over with long pauses for emphasis. That was the first thing that struck me upon hearing his voice again after many years, how uptight it sounds. He almost yells to get his points (such as they are, or aren't) across. And then he has the nerve to call the people listening 'students' -- not ONE person had a note pad and was taking notes (a common occurrence in Buddhist teachings, for instance, or in colleges, where people actually ARE students, and there's actually something of content to be learned). His attempts to whitewash the same old trip are pathetic. I found myself at the end of this sorry spectacle profoundly grateful I had the fortune to escape when I did (1981), and that this is nothing more than an insidious and wierd guru-worship cult, no different from the Moonies or Jonestown in essence. Strange and scary to think it's still going on in almost exactly the same form as it had in the 70s, only the clothes have changed (everyone looked incredibly well dressed). It's amazing how, when the veil is removed from your eyes and you see this for what it really is, how pathetic it (he) looks. I didn't listen to that much of his talks, couldn't stomach it, thank God for the fast-forward button, but from what I gleaned, he isn't saying much of anything at all except the same-old, same-old: surrender to your 'heart', the 'experience' and the 'love' = i.e. him! The words 'heart' and 'breath' and 'the Master' are used repeatedly throughout, along with 'simple'. I guess what amazes me more than anything is how he manages to sell so many people on it (he sure got me for awhile there) with essentially so little content in the whole trip. Yep, he's the Lord alright, the Lord of Bullshit. Sorry if this is getting a bit long-winded, just had to jot down some of my impressions of this 'experience'. If anyone would like to view this video and see what goes on these days, please e-mail me and I'll send it to you, once was more than enough for this decade, for me. 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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 03:17:15 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Joy Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: >Towards the beginning of the video there's a song from Daya about 'dancing to the rhythm of life' The song is sung by Premlata. > it is a pretty incestuous-looking leer Thats the way your mind has adjusted by association. > not ONE person had a note pad But, as you mentioned they were well dressed and listening. > I guess what amazes me more than anything is how he manages to sell so many people on it (he sure got me for awhile there) with essentially so little content in the whole trip. That is a good observation. Everyone was free to move about. > It's amazing how, when the veil is removed from your eyes and you see this for what it really is That veil is really something isn't it really that dang eye veil. *>* ala BB will grok insight to the video experience. Send Burke the video. He is the one. His commentary will manifest the superlative impression to ponder. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 07:19:41 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: CD Subject: CD having a w..k Message: CD I feel like just posting your whole commentary here in italics, but I dont want to take up precious cyber space. Followed by the comment - What????? I'm glad you know what you're talking about. Does it give you some sort of masturbatory pleasure to do your little dance on someone else's thoughts and add your obscure commentary along the way? What does it do for you? what do you think it does for anyone else? Do you think anyone will actually take any notice of anything you have to say (not)? So what is the purpose of wasting your internet time on this pursuit of mediocre sniping. Perhaps you should listen a bit more to Maharaji. You might learn how to speak for yourself (just copy him but add your own concepts.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 11:42:43 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Judex Subject: CD having a w..k Message: Since that awful thing I said last night I have been on a different train of thought altogether, which is an explanation for why I am not responding but to one thing you said, 'Perhaps you should listen a bit more to ...(Mr. Rawat). You might learn how to speak for yourself.' I wondered how Mr. Rawat would speak if he were poor and anonymous, if he were thrown back upon himself. What kind of an example would he be then? Oh, the awful thing is explained in the thread on 'maybe you're right, Bill' And it was only awful for me and by now is feeling awful good for me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 07:25:59 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: CD Subject: Long Beach Idiot Message: Joy wrote: I guess what amazes me more than anything is how he manages to sell so many people on it (he sure got me for awhile there) with essentially so little content in the whole trip. You responded: That is a good observation. Everyone was free to move about. In the year that I've been reading your posts in search of content, I have yet to find a response that indicates you actually can understand ANY of the words you've apparently learned to read and write. You close with: His commentary will manifest the superlative impression to ponder. Stop posting here, Chris. You have nothing to share. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 11:24:56 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Brian Subject: But Katie likes him!! Message: Stop posting here, Chris. You have nothing to share. Brian, apparently you're not getting all Chris has to offer. Remember the long arguments we've had about Chris here? Some people here actually VALUE Chris' input. Right, Miss I-won't-mention-your-name-for-fear-of-a-lawsuit? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 12:19:57 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim Subject: But Katie likes him!! Message: I do like Chris, Jim. Do you have a problem with that? I'm not gonna argue about the 'significance' of his input, either, otherwise someone might start analyzing the 'significance' of MY input. Ms. Katie (most posts, least content, as measured by Participant, 1998) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 13:30:08 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: But Katie likes him!! Message: Katie, You SHOULD argue about the significance of his input here vis- a - vis yours. You are basically sincere and honest. I think you post here because you care about people, care about the truth, in particular, the truth about Maharaji. I don't know why Chris posts here. Maybe to piss people off. You've seen by now that it isn't just me. Pretty well everyone who bothers to read his posts gets furious with him at some point. He knows that, as do you and I. Does he like it? He's never answered that question. Do you think that Chris actually posts here in order to communicate with people? How could that be, given that he's been asked more than once to PLEASE help understand just where he's coming from and he's ignored these requests. What else to infer but that he simply enjoys testing peoples' patience here? So, yes, you SHOULD enjoy the comparison, just like Chris, as you know, is enjoying THIS post. You are, aren't you Chris? You get a lot of pleasure doing this don't you? Katie, what in the world do you find likeable about THAT? And if you say that THAT isn't what you like about Chris, I've got to ask you how else do you know him? What has he ever shared with you openly and honestly? Nothing and you know it. Is this just a case of liking everybody because they're people too? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 23:45:31 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Brian Subject: Long Beach Idiot Message: >Stop posting here, Chris. You have nothing to share. Maybe not with you Brian. You might be suprised that I said some nice words regarding you to Mickey when I met him. You'll get a reprise during the next couple weeks while I am on my trip to England and the Wembley program. Don't fool yourself, I have at least as much to share as you do. Regards, CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 11:21:29 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: CD, king of Insipidity Message: That is a good observation. Everyone was free to move about. No, Chris! Really? I'd actually heard that Maharaji chained them to their chairs. Thanks for speaking up for a little truth here. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 14:55:00 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: CD Subject: CD's premiespeak Message: Send Burke the video. He is the one. His commentary will manifest the superlative impression to ponder. Manifest? Manifest? Now who in the world talks like that? Hmm, that's a tough one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 03:19:19 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Joy Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: Joy, I haven't seen the Longbeach video's , but am familiar with videos made up until Amaroo last year and one or two more recent ones. I don't feel to respond to all you've said (right now) but I as a very recent premie(officially) , and now 'non-premie' never personally suggested that Maharaji was just a meditation teacher. That is a ludicrous idea! Yes, the devotional 'strain' is really strong, both in the way video's are edited and in the general mind-sets of most premies. This is a 'bhakti' sect . One Master( guru) said that it was very important to discover a 'path' that complimented and enhanced ones own native temperement. He went on to say that many people on spiritual paths are stuck with a teacher/master and a path that is very unsuited to them. A bit like marrying someone who is really incompatable. Or being in a job that is a rut and offers no challenge to develop ones potential. I feel that the bhakti(devotional/heart) type path is only a secondary path for me. I really enjoy and respect the intellect. And I need to understand not only feel. It seems that Maharaji is strenghening the bhakti type aspect at the moment( actually for a year or so) and that is too much for me. That's all for now, Regards Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 07:21:44 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Keith Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: Congratulations on recovering your own mind so that you can decide for yourself what does and does not help you to grow. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 12:58:17 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Keith Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: Yes, the devotional 'strain' is really strong, both in the way video's are edited and in the general mind-sets of most premies. This is a 'bhakti' sect. I saw the 'devotional strain' in the video I also saw, which also was from Long Beach in 1996. Really, if people want to be on a devotional path, that's their business, but what bothers me is how BM and the premies dress it up like it's something else entirely. For example, as Joy says, premies say that he's just saying to 'enjoy life' and that's it. That is where the big lie comes in, in my opinion. The other thing is, as Joy mentioned, this devotional video is for people who already have knowledge. I assume there are other, 'non-devotional' videos for new people. What is also deceitful is that people who are just getting involved aren't told that this really is a 'bhakti sect' or a path of devotion to BM. They are not told about devotion, darshan, lotus feet and all the rest, at least not until they are already heavily involved and have already invested a lot. If you read the instructors' manual, you get the same explanation of the insidious deception. People are addressed in stages and only gradually introduced to the concepts of devotion to BM. I consider this very deceitful. At least when I got involved, because the premies could give satsang, I pretty much knew what I was getting into from the beginning. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 14:55:36 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: JW Subject: Then again, JW... Message: 'What is also deceitful is that people who are just getting involved aren't told that this really is a 'bhakti sect' or a path of devotion to BM. They are not told about devotion, darshan, lotus feet and all the rest, at least not until they are already heavily involved and have already invested a lot. If you read the instructors' manual, you get the same explanation of the insidious deception. People are addressed in stages and only gradually introduced to the concepts of devotion to BM. I consider this very deceitful. At least when I got involved, because the premies could give satsang, I pretty much knew what I was getting into from the beginning.' Good points, JW, except that when I was a little tyke, I didn't know what a bhakti sect was. I was just told that M was the Perfect Master like Jesus-irresistable!! I think it was deceitful then and it is deceitful now. But you are right that the packaging on the deceit has changed a good bit. Back then you were up for the devotion or you thought premies were moonies. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 07:35:01 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Joy Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: Thanks for posting that, Joy. And thanks, anonymous premie, for sending it to her. I'd like to see that one myself. It's the pricey one in the catalogue, so the Ex-Lord must feel that there's a big demand for that sort of gibberish among his devoted followers that will overcome the cost of ownership. I have to wonder whether the person who sent it too you thought it would help you to realize that Maharaji is indeed the Lord [laugh]. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 10:39:59 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@Mail.trib.net To: Joy Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: Hi Joy - I'd like to see that video. VP, Brian and I are sharing some videos that Selena sent me, so if you send it to one of us, the others will eventually see it (maybe Jim, too.) I have never seen M's daughter sing, and would like to. Let me know. Thanks for watching it and reporting to us. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 20:57:47 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Katie Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: > I have never seen M's daughter sing, Both of the duaghters sing on the video. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 11:06:34 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Joy Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: Joy, If there is anyway you could share this with me, please do. I could even pick it up since we're so close geographically. THIS I've got to see! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 11:18:53 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Joy Subject: Me! Me! Message: Joy, I'll take it! Jim Heller 7 - 547 Herald Street Victoria, B.C. Canada, V8W 1S5 OR -- you could come up next weekend for a visit and see our little band play on Saturday night. Just a thought. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 11:27:15 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: Me! Me! Message: I'd posted tht before I even noticed anyone else had responded. Look, I don't need the video. I've got two of my own. On the other hand, if you want to come up, please do. You, too, Gerry, by the way. Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 11:58:07 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Jim Subject: Me! Me! Message: Okay, I should've realized there'd be a clamor for the thing. Carol actually sent the first request, so I am sending it to her soon, then she can send it on to Gerry, and he to whoever else wants it next (Katie, then Jim?). Didn't realize I was getting the privileged, pricey stuff there. I must say, EV's gotten better at video production than when I used to be there and it was just a straight hour of GMJ expounding forth, hardly ever even varying the camera angle. This was actually pretty slick, production wise. I still have to watch the second half, bet there's more dancing on it, as could only stomach half of it in one sitting. Too bad it can't be posted on the site somehow, maybe when technology gets a little further down the road . . . Jim, does your band ever do any Seattle gigs? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 11:59:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Joy Subject: Me! Me! Message: Jim, does your band ever do any Seattle gigs? No, I'm wanted in the states. 25 year old warrant for skipping out on may ashram debt apparently. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 13:54:41 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Joy Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: Thanks, Joy, very insightful comments. That video sounds a lot like the one I saw, that also had him walking around in slow motion to new-age music, always shot from the rear. Maybe premies do find that 'sexy,' although I can't imagine that, but it was my opinion that he was shot from the rear to avoid showing his protruding gut, which he appears to have had his entire life. Who knows, maybe BM is becomming more vain about this stuff. Have you heard that Barbara Streisand only allows herself to be shot in films from the left? Maybe BM has similar requirements, or maybe he likes the look of his own ass and watches it over and over in narcissistic ecstacy, who knows? The ways of the master are not for us mere mortals to judge! You're right, he does yell a lot, pause a lot and is very repitive, and that is particularly annoying because his voice is so squeaky. And the pitch seems to rise with the volume. And that incestuous Daya thing. I just don't know WHAT to say about that. WHAT could she be THINKING? WHAT could HE be THINKING? And the premies must be not thinking at all to sit through that! It just looks really sick. BTW -- Since EV is selling decks of cards and beach towels now to make money, can barf bags, which swans on them of course, be far behind? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 14:02:12 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: to JW and Joy Message: Joe, Is THAT the same video I sent you? Oh my God! I'm SO embarrassed. I guess this shows that Maharaji or the devil have completely destroyed my memory or attention span. (Now I know what you're going to say Jack. Be nice!). Joy, I've seen it too, then. Yes, thank you as well for your eloquent review. My bet is that all we're ever going to get out of this fiasco, besides some new friends and a little insight, is a few laughs. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 15:26:52 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: to Jim and Joy Message: Jim, I'm not sure if it's the same video or not. The one you sent me was Long Beach, 1996. Joy's might be a different one, because she said it was close to 2 hours long and the one you sent me isn't nearly that long, at least I don't think it was. Joy, did the video, in the section BM was showing his ass, also have Daya walking around by trees singing? Did it have a scene of the Queen Mary and said something like 'welcome to Long Beach?' Did Kim Fields sing 'when will I dance with you again?' Did BM talk about how he used to watch soap operas everyday, and talked about a TV commercial for popcorn? That's the one I saw. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 17:19:30 (EST)
From: Joy Email: None To: JW Subject: to Jim and Joy Message: Joe, I'm not sure if it's the same one. This video said one hour and 48 minutes long, and did indeed have Daya singing while walking among some trees, towards the beginning. Haven't got up to the Fields song yet since I'm only half way thru it, and have been fast forwarding over a lot of M's talks, can't stomach them straight, so he may have talked about those things. But the glimpses I am catching are basically of him talking about The Master, etc. Will watch more and tell you later, okay? But hey, barf bags with swans on them, something he hasn't thought of yet, I like the idea, maybe there's some profit in there for BM. I cannot imagine him selling keychains, coffee mugs, tea towels etc. How incredibly tacky and corny. Is there NOTHING in the world immune from commecialism any more? Next thing you know we're going to see adverts when we die, before we get to heaven (or wherever!). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 17:46:04 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Joy Subject: to Jim and Joy Message: It sounds like the same video, as I doubt there is more than one of Daya walking around singing by trees. Be sure to catch the section on soap operas, and his potification on the popcorn commercial. They are truly inspiring sections. Did you think his eyes looked like they were swollen shut, like they were nothing more than slits? I was kind of shocked when I saw him. Do you think alcohol did that? Yes, CD said that he bought a beach towel and a set of playing cards (with swans on them) at the recent Miami program. I BM even has chocolates and coffee mugs, not to mention all the pictures. I can't wait until they have the official Sat Pal condom, the official lotus-fragrance douche, and the charnamarit enema bag (with swans on it). The marketing opportunities are virtually endless. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 18:49:23 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: JW Subject: to Jim and Joy Message: Hi JW, I've seen your posts but haven't had any interaction with you myself. Hope you are well. I don't know about any of you old timers but in my premie community, fasting and enemas was big for awhile so that enema bag, with swans, of course, could really be a big seller!! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 10:41:07 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Further accessories.. Message: I seem to remember a phase among premies in England for drinking your own urine to improve skin quality. Well if ordinary premie pee can do that what about Prem Pal Pee for Perfect Pores. It just goes to show what premies will swallow Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 12:03:29 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Richard Subject: Further accessories.. Message: Dear Richard, NASTY!!!! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 12:16:50 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Further accessories.. Message: Not all that weird, since we used to drink his bath water. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:06:04 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Katie Subject: Who! need clarification! Message: KT: Drink his bath water? c'mon, where'd you hear THAT? We're taking this whole rememberance of things past way too far. Seriously, I don't remember that, that is truly disgusting. Now that I think of it, I have no idea what the holy water did come from. I think I remember that all he had to do was 'taste' not take a bath in, a glass of water, then that water would make gallons of more water 'holy'. If you're right maybe that's why I got so sick after becoming a premie. ...turned a nice disgusting shade of zuchini green in '74 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 13:11:50 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: John Subject: Charanamrit and Prashad Message: John, I was exaggerating slightly, but I was told that 'charanamrit' was water that GMJ had put his lotus feet in. I think that's true, but maybe not. Anyway, I knew this AND I drank it. The thing about his taking a taste and passing it on is 'prashad' which I know definitely applied to food (like leftover pizza) - not sure about water or other liquids. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 14:15:24 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Katie Subject: Bring back that bucket to me! Message: Ugh! You know you're right, it was supposed to have been water that he put his feet in. That's just as disgusting, isn't it? But then, I don't think we actually drank the water did we? Didn't we like splash it on our face or something? I think this is a good sign, I really don't remember these incredibly wierd details. ...became a member of a cult of whackos in '73 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 14:23:22 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: John Subject: Drinking foot water Message: John, I have a distinct memory of the housemother coming around with a spoon and a container of charanamrit after arti and giving everyone a spoonful of foot water(everyone who wanted one, that it). What a blissful experience - it was a real group high! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 14:25:02 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Katie Subject: Drinking foot water addendum Message: Oh, yeah, we definitely drank it. I guess you could either get it put in your hands or in your mouth. Sort of like the Host in a Catholic Mass. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 14:53:06 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Katie Subject: Drinking foot water addendum Message: We certainly did drink it. In retrospect it is a throughly yucko thought. We drank it for years after arti morning and evening. And yes, it was supposedly water BM had stuck his feet into. Some of the initiators/mahatmas travelled with a supply to replenish it out in the communities. It always reminded me of holy water in the Catholic Church, but that foot-thing was always such a big deal with BM. You know stuff about his 'lotus-feet' [whatever did THAT mean?], kissing his feet, and drinking his foot-water. What WAS that all about? Was that some kind of a Hindu thing, or was that some particular fetish with Maharaji? Seems he is still into it, now that he's once again having the premies line up and kiss his feet in large numbers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 18:32:20 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: JW Subject: lotus feet Message: I hadn't heard that saying but taking a guess, he talks about the lotus, the lily with it's roots in mud, floating on top of the water...as we all know...the symbol of being alive but somehow pure of eartlhy stains on our lily white souls. So I guess the lotus feet may be the idea of that being where his feet touch the earth, his connection to his followers through his being alive? Or, his feet are the lotus and he walks on water? Come to think of it, it's hard to guess. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 18:58:13 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Judex Subject: lotus feet Message: Maybe it's metaphorical. His feet are lotus flowers, his toe nails are the lotus petals. Corns are the fruit of the lotus plant, calluses are like the bark of the tree; althletes foot, well, that's a fungus and probably irritating like the mind. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 30, 1998 at 05:37:57 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: JW Subject: lotus feet Message: Maybe it's metaphorical. His feet are lotus flowers, his toe nails are the lotus petals. Corns are the fruit of the lotus plant, calluses are like the bark of the tree; althletes foot, well, that's a fungus and probably irritating like the mind. Or is it kind of car? And when you put your lotus foot down, that means you are speeding. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Mon, Jun 01, 1998 at 06:43:01 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Judex Subject: In all seriousness... Message: As I remember this is an oft repeated hindu analogy where the lotus flower is the symbol of perfection which, whilst in the world is, not of it. i.e. the lotus flower, while existing in the muddiest of waters, always appears pristine (surface tension?) and its roots do not reach the pond bed but float free in the water. Add to that the symmetry of the petals and you have the perfect hindu symbol. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 11:17:35 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: JW Subject: a joke, miniscule Message: So, since constant meditation is no longer required is one supposed to visualize his human form while drying off with the towel? went cold turkey in '82 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 12:16:58 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: John Subject: a joke, miniscule Message: I'm not sure about the spiritual significance of the towel. I was concerned that his lotus-face was emblazened on the towel, meaning that the tushes of beach goers would be placed thereon. I envisioned the caption underneath: 'This face seats five.' I'm sure the geniuses at EV realized that another design for the towel would be more appropriate. JW ...went cold turkey in 1983 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 14:23:25 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: JW Subject: What? That's an outrage! Message: Joe, Your joke about Marjie's face reminds me how far we've fallen. Do you remember when every pamphlet, poster or publication that had his face had to be burned to be destroyed, rather than simply tossed out? I do. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 15:01:35 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: What? That's an outrage! Message: Yes, I remember you weren't supposed to throw a picture of BM into the garbage for example. That would have been too disrespectful. Hence, premies kept old, faded, ragged pictures of BM for years, fearful of doing something sacraligious with them. Must say, when I stopped being a premie, I took all the stuff I had and threw it in the garbage. I had no problem doing that. As I recall I smashed a few pictures for good measure. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 19:10:51 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Joy and everyone Subject: begging for coffee mugs... Message: Joy, I hope that there aren't any ads on the way to heaven...maybe on the way to hell, eh? I am still waiting for the M action figures myself. I really do want a couple of coffee mugs (with M's pic-not swans) if they really make these. If any of you folks do make it to a program this year, someone please pick up a couple of them for me. I will reimburse you for product and shipping. I have some 'gag' gift Christmas presents to get. Those would be perfect. Thanks, VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 17:06:30 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Joy Subject: Long Beach Video ......... Message: 'There's no business like show business.' There are people who like Barney too but they are all pretty young and easily amused. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 21:26:50 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Waking from the Meme Dream Message: First Gerry, then Charles (oops, I mean charles) turned me on to this essay by Susan Blackmore that is truly fascinating. I've never been the slightest bit interested in Zen but she's got me thinking. Maybe it's like acupuncture which, according to an excellent article in the last Skeptic actually has proven efficacy although the underlying theory is still rank superstition. Anyway, here's the link: Waking from the Meme Dream Really, you guys should read this. Thanks Gerry and Ch..charles. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 23:51:39 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Waking from the Meme Dream Message: Many words....driven by memes!? Or just another attempt to conceptualise the unconceptualisable?! Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 05:05:07 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Waking from the Meme Dream Message: Sorry Jim, thought that was the biggest load of nonsense I've ever seen. So, thoughts have us, just to survive. Yes, life is about survival of the fittest thoughts. this is the x files, no less. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 10:46:16 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Judex Subject: Waking from the Meme Dream Message: An interesting thing about thoughts is not only do they need us to survive, but they actually effect a measureable physiological change in the structure of the brain. When passed on to another brain, they again effect a physical change, though not necessarily the same change. It is decidedly a new view and I'm not surprised there is resistance and opposition to it. I plan on keeping an open mind even though it is a challenging and somewhat frightening concept (or meme). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 11:35:28 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Waking from the Meme Dream Message: Judex and Keith, My, my! Oh well, maybe they're just kidding. Gerry, Check out Dawkins' The Extended Phenotype. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 20:58:20 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Jim Subject: Waking from the Meme Dream Message: My memes are informing me right now that beyond this realm of memes,( the power of thought to replicate and evolve its forms along a measurable course of the survival of the most sophisticated -sounding, if Blackmore is an example of evolved memes in action)there is an 'immeasurable' realm of quarks. Quarks are closer to God than Memes!!! Without Quarks memes would not exist!!! So, na na na na !!!! Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 21:09:10 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Keith Subject: Waking from the Meme Dream Message: You left out a 'na'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 22:31:12 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Keith Subject: Waking from the Meme Dream Message: I wanted to answer this post, but I think Jim summed it up beautifully. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 23:26:27 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Gerry andJim Subject: Waking from the Meme Dream Message: NA! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 21:23:57 (EST)
From: charles Email: dewinter@montrose.net To: Everyone Subject: wrong and right moves Message: It just occured to me that I have, since I recieved Knowledge and maybe even since years before, most tellingly disempowered myself by not allowing myself to acknowledge that I may have made a bad move and that I could take action to do all I could to correct it and that the action I took would make a difference and would not be so short lived as to be pointless. And a large part or maybe even all of this stance or lack of one was adopted because I heard a story about Guru Maharaj Ji and his meeting with an aspiring initiator. The story goes like this: This person in his interview with Maharaj Ji says, 'I have reason to regret that I have ever been married.' Maharaj Ji is reported to have said, 'How dare you criticize anything I have given you!' In the next instant this person is crawling on the ground, crying profusely and through his tears looking to kiss Guru Maharaj Ji's foot. I took it to mean that all that happened in my life was divinely ordained, thus perfect, beyond question and certainly beyond judgement by me. If I took action it would be only more of the same and I would best spend my energies in the pursuit of attunement with the will that would move me anyway no matter what I thought and did. If I could find that attunement then my life would move along smoothly and effortlessly. Unfortunately this is not a doctrine original with Guru Maharaj Ji. I wonder how others have faced this and dealt with it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 23:23:50 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: charles Subject: hear a story, add a meaning Message: Stories. Maharaji has made a good living by telling them to those who will sit still long enough to hear. What child has ever lived that didn't stop all activity for Story Time? We never outgrow it, evidently - based on MJ still spinning yarns to passive listeners. The one you're referring to hints that you should assume that all experience flows from Maharaji as a gift that should be cherished unquestionably. It only hints, because that's the best way to allow people to derive whatever meaning they are comfortable with from the story. You don't have to totally embrace the notion of MJ at the wheel. However, you are certainly encouraged to move in that direction by the story being told. Tell a different story, steer em in a different direction. Nobody locked us in a room and refused to allow us to leave until we had accepted the whole line of bullshit MJ dishes out. We stayed because he had our interest. And he kept it (and keeps premie interest still) by telling us stories. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 20:50:22 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Benefit of the Doubt Message: Often premies who post here defend Maharaji on the basis that much of the allegations against him are just that, they're not proven, they're second hand or are based on mere interpretations of Maharaji's word or actions, no matter how reasonable. Don't forget, urge the apologists, those stories may be false or, with repsect to what Maharaji has irrefutably said or done, he just may have some good excuse. If we don't know what it is, well that's our fault. We're cautioned by the premies to 'keep an open mind' and avoid any 'rush to judgment'. Here's what Canadian case law says about circumstantial evidence. Yes, a person is innocent until proven guilty. Yes, an accused is never obliged to testify. All the same, there are certain situations that clearly cry out for an explanation, that is, where the web of circumstantial evidence is so thick, it's only human nature to suspect guilt unless the accused comes forward with credible evidence to the contrary. I like that standard. I think it's fair, natural and reasonable. Now, Maharaji, of course is not a criminally accused. Indeed, he has a much greater obligation to answer his critics for, as we all know, we entrusted our lives to him. He was, ostensibly, our sacred teacher. He promised explicitly and implicitly that he'd always be there for us and that included answering questions. But even if Maharaji had no more obligation to answer than a criminal defendant, it should be abundantly clear to everyone by now that he needs to speak out. The silence does NOT fall in his favour, his benefit of the doubt is long exhausted. For example, Maharaji claimed he was God. Now we've all seen one premie after another log on and pathetically try to explain away Maharaji's words for him. Forget it. He himself had better explain or the only fair thing to do is to assume the obvious. That is, there comes a time when fairness dictates coming to some conclusions. Maharaji, in his depsaration or perhaps his deluded simplicity might think that if he stonewalls forever he can't be 'convicted' of anything. Sorry fella, that's very naive and, believe it or not, a far stretch from house rules. The flame of hope we might have burned in our upper attic windows for him, the small light awaiting his response, awaiting his good faith, loving effort to clear up all misunderstandings, has burnt itself out. For me, time's been up a while now. The verdict's in... Guilty. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 20:47:19 (EST)
From: Sir David Cheeseguard Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: You could be right, Bill Message: Bill; don't leave this one alone about who you think Maharaji is on the forum. You may be right. I have not seen M since 1986 and have not been a close watcher since 1983 so my perception of M is a very old and outdated one. Despite his 1986 appearance in Wembly when he emphatically said that he was not God, my main memory of him is as the Lord of the Universe of the seventies. So although I hear he's made a complete turn around since then I still see him as the ex-Lord or the one who convinced me for a while, that he was the Lord and that devotion to Him was the supreme goal. I realise I'm stuck in the past and your more recent descriptions of M have at last taken away the mystique of the man. I'm very grateful for this. I don't hate him but I appreciate being able to see M as just another ordinary person who is no more enlightened than I am. Your posts have helped tremendously. It is easy for me to perceive Satpal as just another money/power grabbing guru but subconsciously I have still seen M as being something special. Thankfully, yours and others' posts have begun to dispell this illusion which at first caused me great upset (because my Lord became a mere ordinary man) and made me seek the real God who I thought M had been. If Doc is Maharaji then his response to me does illustrate that he has no idea just how sincerely we (I) took on board the 'Lord has come' thing. What he doesn't realise is that hunger I have had for a relationship of some kind with God. He seems to have miscounted or ignored that. Following M was never just a thing to get some satisfaction from knowledge from. I had already experienced that long before I moved into the ashram. I wanted to devote myself to God and feel close to Him like a child would with his Father. That is why I suffered the ashram bullshit because I believed that I was surrendering to God. The complete turn around that M made is still something I've never comprehended. I guess I am naive and even gullable. I could not believe that M was NOT the Lord even though it seemed absurd to believe it. When I was in the ashram it was the most important thing for me to feel that I was in 'God's house' and being close to the love that He is. If Maharaji ever reads this then I would like to say to him that by convincing me in the seventies that he was God incarnate he made it impossible for me to listen to him if he then turned out NOT to be God incarnate. This will be true for many people, I'm sure. I think M may be unaware of this fact. Also, he may even deny that he used to advertise himself as the Lord but I'm sure he remembers it. After believing I was a devotee of the living Lord, anything less is a total anticlimax and a Maharaji that isn't that Lord, is just another man to me and not one I would want to take seriously again. A shame it would end this way, after all the years of devotion but we have to face facts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 03:59:28 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Sir David Cheeseguard Subject: You could be right Message: David,I understand and share your feelings. I am feeling hurt and angry today, a part of the process I guess. If God is distant, cold, vengeful, or is maharaji, then I reject God. I need to dissolve all my past concepts of God and simply go on my own power to find my way and do what seems right. I need people like you and others here. I have sometimes believed that I have done something wrong to have a painful condition like we share or to have other 'bad' things happen. These are not rational thoughts, more like a fearful child's programming. I reject the superstitious thinking and yet it surfaces. I want to be cleansed and have a fresh start. To a faceless presence I pray for this. carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 10:55:37 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: carol Subject: You could be right Message: In the months before I got here i was taking the position that our real enemy as human beings was god and that our struggle was to face and overcome this entity of many faces and characteristics. Even if it doesn't exist it still needs to be overcome because it does exist in our minds if nowhere else. And it exists in etc. Maybe identifying the enemy and its lairs is an important step in the mission to destroy it. As for me, I will return to a study and practice of Zen and Tantra. What I know of these disciplines convinces me that they are likely ways to go about training for the work. I'm sure I will eventually settle on one way. Just my take on it. And since this is 'you could be right' I will concur. I think Bill is right. Last night I came to that conclusion and reiterated my post that in my opinion DOC is a reptile. It was a bit disorienting at first. None of this is going to be easy. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 15:39:24 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: carol Subject: You could be right Message: Dear Carol, Maybe, as a result of growing up in a violent yet very Catholic home, I discarded religion as I knew it and wasn't rushing to keep god in my life. Over the years I came to feel that god was no more than a life force, having nothing to do with human anything. In this way I can't blame him or think he makes things happen. I feel that 'god' or life force is in me and connects me to all. When I am 'aware' of that force, maybe things click for me but then really things click for me when I am in really bad places (inside myself) also. I don't know, I think it is natural to think of god in human terms and there is a bible passage I remember from catacisim (sp?) that god made us in his likeness but I think that is nonsence! Just something a human thought of. Maybe if Jesus, Krishna or any of these was a physical manifestation of god then they were god in human form but how could you really believe there is a human looking god up there, where? Making humans to look like him. I am starting to ramble so I'll stop now. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 19:04:53 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: carol Subject: You could be right Message: If God is distant, cold, vengeful, or is maharaji, then I reject God. I need to dissolve all my past concepts of God and simply go on my own power to find my way and do what seems right. I need people like you and others here. I have sometimes believed that I have done something wrong to have a painful condition like we share or to have other 'bad' things happen. These are not rational thoughts, more like a fearful child's programming. I reject the superstitious thinking and yet it surfaces. I want to be cleansed and have a fresh start. To a faceless presence I pray for this. carol Carol, that is exactly how I feel. In my heart I reject the heavy authoritarian power and all the 'fear' inducing talk that goes with it. I want a fresh start. That is why I took the difficult steps to question Maharaji's authority and approach Truth unencumbered with all the garbage I had accumulated as a premie. There are many people who feel like this across the world. I think that much of mankind is rejecting repressive regimes that really belong in the Middle Ages. As M. Appleman pointed out, our children will learn from the mistakes of our generation, most likely run a mile from the likes of MJ and life will continue to refine and evolve. As you said, if Satguru is God in a human body, as Shri Hans obviously taught, I want no part of this trip if it involves intimidation which in my experience has definately been the case. I pray too to the unknown. Back to square One. This time..NO BELIEVING OR WISHFUL THINKING! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 20:32:51 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Everyone Subject: To John SA , Jack, Robyn, etc. Message: (Miss this place for a couple of days and look what happens! Robyn, you are right about those dirty dishes.) I owe a couple of you email. Just to let you know, my ISP has been giving busy signals for a couple of days so I haven't been able to get any email sent or get into the forum. John SA, I am sorry that I was such a smartass to you, but I just didn't get what you were talking about, ok? I also felt like you were attacking me, so I was refuting your rebuttals. I am happy to discuss things here with you anytime, provided that I am able to get here, that is :) Jack, Thanks for all of the compliments. How could I possibly take offense to your wonderful description of me? My lobster is doing just fine, BTW. To answer your question, I just threw in that thing about doing God's work to get you (or someone) all excited. There are some things that I do in the community that I consider to be for the good of everyone concerned. I don't know what God would say about it, but I hope that he/she would approve. I think that one can believe in God without having any guilt or fear or unworthiness attatched to it-but that is just my opinion. I also think that I do control my destiny whether or not I believe in God. God doesn't come down here and make my decisions for me. There are a lot of good ideas in secular humanism, but I don't know enough about it to discuss it with you at length. I think Jim had a good point: the evaluation of my personality is pretty boring. I never claimed to be God for one thing. Take Care All, The Duke Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 05:08:20 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: VP Subject: To John SA , Jack, Robyn, etc. Message: the thin white duke? the duke of earl? so many possibilities! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 08:30:56 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: VP Subject: one more... Message: actually VP I thought after that terrible roasting from Jack (well, you deserved it - after those white suit remarks??!!) - you should call yourself VP - James VP after all, cigarettes long to be smoked by you and women to know you better... (affectionately) Judex-files Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 14:31:07 (EST)
From: VP, James VP Email: None To: Judex Subject: one more... Message: Hello, Judex. I like that new name of yours, BTW. I think that was someone else who was asking about the white suits. (??) I was just saying that I didn't need a guru and Jack got all over me. Well, actually, he was just 'cajoling me', as I now know:) And it was pretty funny. Do horses long to be ridden?? Sheesh! VP, James VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 17:04:35 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Badgering the witness Message: Dear Jim I havent had a chance to read any posts this morning - but I really want to say something about my 'reasoning' post to you, (re Keith) which I can't find, going to work.. It was to do with being all subtle and gentle and not being so confrtontational with reason... First: apologize because I feel like I was trying to tell you how to be Jim Second: your method works brilliantly for some - did for me Ok but now this is what I want to say. During certain critical years of my chidlhood my mother appeared to detest me. She criticised me, undermined me, shamed me and finally abandoned me in boarding school in a foreign country. It doesnt all go exactly like that but emotionally, I feel it probably did. And what was I doing - probably just being a naughty little girl. (aren't we all) She had her own problems. When I see you 'badgering' people about facing the facts or answering your questions, I want to ask you what sort of father you had? (this is personal so not in the realm of have to answer or else!) Just out of interest, I was looking for a denial book, sicne I chucked away my melodie beattie when i got over it, and instead found another book by Robert Bly, who I mentioned in a previous post writing books for men/another about Kabir. He has written a book abut the 'sibling society' where he appears to mourn the loss of the real father in society. It is sprinkled with lots of krishna stories so i didnt buy it, not up to that yet. He is described as a respected elder in the community or whatever. He talks about the 'absent' fathers, the lack of respect in society (he is aiming at US society but sure relates to all Western). Anyway it was just interesting to see that as well as questioning authoritarian structures, there are new views coming out about fathering - patriarchal role it seems. Have a great day Jim - I am learning from my posts to you - which I keep watching, wondering why I seem to be trying to undermine you in some way. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 19:59:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Judex Subject: Badgering the witness Message: Judex, When I see you 'badgering' people about facing the facts or answering your questions, I want to ask you what sort of father you had? He wasn't like me. No formal education, real hustler, great businessman, real socialite, liked to have fun, was full of shit about much and NEVER liked to be called on it, made tons of money, lost almost all of it before his death 10 years ago. Didn't like to discuss things seriously, was outgoing, not prone to sincere expressions of sentiment or philosophy, thought I was kind of neat/ kind of egg-heady. Admired me, competed with me, unapproachable but in a joking, short-tempered,not cold, diffident way. Kind of like that. I havent had a chance to read any posts this morning - but I really want to say something about my 'reasoning' post to you, (re Keith) which I can't find, going to work.. It was to do with being all subtle and gentle and not being so confrontational with reason... My whole thing is that I think it's fascinating what happens when we have to spell things out. No matter how much else we depend on to live our lives, language is so important. Words DO matter, concepts matter. Maharaji's such a joke lassoing his premies with the most intense words possible, having them stir the pot nightly with those same words, having them focus their whole lives on watching him echo those same words, in some variation or another and then -- get this -- smirking that words don't matter, satsang's an experience of truth beyond the words. Well, it's words that got us in and its words that got us out. Not the 'unspeakable' word either. The sound of your breath? Why that's no word at all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 20:47:44 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Jim Subject: Badgering the witness Message: Jim: Thank you for speaking up for the importance of words. I have been on that bandwagon for a long time. And thank you as well for pressing me to express myself as clearly and cogently as I can. There has been little call for it in the world of construction/floor covering. It is a blessing to be able to do it here. As a premie that prediliction was something I gave up. It was years after I wandered away or left before I even began to read again. I valued it but I was wrong. I was 'in my mind'. I was bringing everybody down. I was a boring pedant. BUT, (always a but) I found a couple of days ago that a certain kind of thinking (talking to myself) was inimical to the experience of love. And then a day later it expanded into any kind of thinking that used the word 'I'. Please go and read the lecture at this address: http://www.memes.org.uk/meme-lab/DART96.HTM Gerry turned me on to it. I think you will like it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 04:05:49 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: Badgering the witness Message: I was lassoed by means of words and feelings. It's a wonder we weren't branded! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 16:16:08 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Everyone Subject: Sleep per chance to dream Message: Dear Joy, Selena, and Jude, Seems I do this to much lately, catch up reading what I've missed in the inactive list and then feel I have to comment. Haven't you noticed I am a talker! Joy, so sorry to hear about your compounded sleep and sensitivity problems. Do you live in a city? Would the country be better for you? I don't mean to make light of your situation but I feel that brain fog quite a bit but think it has to do with being so busy. I have had it before though and see it as connected to poor sleep or avoidance of a problem or project. I'm not saying that is your problem, not at all. Just relating to what you said. Selena, interesting take on the crow thing. My dear friend who follows American Indian teachings was with me when a crow flew right in front of my car windshield and he felt it was a very powerful symbol. I can't quite remember but it was similar to what you said, something about the law, or justice, judgment, Carol do you have any reference. It was the week before Jade got in trouble and I wondered if it was an omen. I have wonderful dreams and see them as free entertainment with a message to boot! Jude, I am embarassed to admit I can't remember what your post said although I know I wanted to make a comment. Be right back.... Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 16:19:54 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Robyn Subject: dirty feet Message: Dear Jude, So sorry, it was BM's dirty feet. I thought that might be to symbolize he is down in the dirt with the rest of us, no better. Usually his feet, when we ever saw them, were in fresh, clean, white socks. Remember I'm not good at this. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 16:45:47 (EST)
From: carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: Robyn Subject: The Crow Message: From the Medicine cards book: I will post the complete message to you in e-mail if I have your address and you request it. In general, it's about sacred law and the gateway to the supernatural. I'll copy the last paragraph here: As you learn to allow your personal integrity to be your guide, your sense of feeling alone will vanish. Your personal will can then emerge so that you will stand in your truth. The prime path of true crow people says to be mindful of your opinions and actions. Be willing to walk your talk, speak your truth, know your life's mission, and balance past, present, and future in the now. Shape shift that old reality and become your future self. Allow the bending of physical laws to aid in creating the shape shifted world of peace. If you draw the card upside down, then the contrary message if given: again I'll do the last paragraph (this has turned into something I need to hear right now. See my recent message to charles): Refusing to honor the shifts in your reality can cause emotional pain. An implosion of energy is apparent when rebellion surfaces (I am feeling pain AND rebellion and anger at God!and at myself) Contrary Crow speaks of broken law. The law of expansion is broken by suppression. This may apply to a situation, an old habit, a person you have given your authority to, or your own fears. It is always your own creation, so call on Crow and shift that creation to your new reality. Wish me luck,carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 09:19:42 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: carol Subject: The Crow Message: Dear Carol, Thank you so much for the info. Reading it the entire surface of my skin was tingling! I thought, maybe it is just a chill but it is gone now. I would very much appreciate your sending me the words in their entirety. My email adress is at the top of this message. I feel like I could learn volumes from you. Wish I lived close as I'd love to spend time with you. Apparently another raw emotional day but not a bad one, I think. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:43:21 (EST)
From: RT Email: yeahhh, maybe To: Everyone from the 70's+ Subject: Atman and Baragon: Humor Being Message: AND NOW FOR YOUR AMUSEMENT THE FURTHER ADVENTURES OF......... ATMAN - and this is my Ji-Whiz, BARAGON! Join Us! -in- - EPISODE SEVEN: RHYMES WITH HEAVEN - Wherein ATMAN and BARRAGON do battle with MINDLEAK, the Super-Librarian Who has access to every Philosophy, Religion and Mental Construct of the Earth Humanity But, Who Does Not Have the Knowledge of Self as Direct Experience - He has Only the Menu, Not the Meal. ~ 'Holy Name, Atman! Look out-it's Mindleak! The Man who would Not Surrender!' 'Better use your earplugs, Baragon! He's really full of it!' Suddenly, Mindleak leaped and spun like a dervish on roller blades carrying a stack of pancakes, dispersing like frisbees- but at only half the speed of Light - Religious Writings of all Faiths! - Jewish Vegetarian Bumper Stickers - 'OY Vegan!' - Christian Billboards with Just ONE quote in big blue letters! - Laundromat Cartoon-Guilt Booklets form Yah-wheys House of God ...Bible, Gita, Koran, he gave them to the... 'OUCH!' yelled Atman. (Of all the books to throw, it was the bound edition of And It Is Divine, Vol. One and Only, that really hurt). 'That really hurt. Only one thing to do with this mess'...ATMAN mused, 'but that tag sale is SATurday.' Swiftly he picked up Ji, and spun BARAGON between his palms, like the helicopter blade of destiny. 30-50-70 miles per hour! Whoosh. Sandstorms! Ji-Whiz whirled with hurricane force! Whoosh. Earplugs went orbital! Then he aimed Ji-Whiz! SALAM! The Winds of Place threw MINDLEAK off of his one foundation into the prohibited void of...The Whirled of Knowledge! BEEP BEEPBA BEEP BEEP BE BEEP BA BEE BEEP BEEP BEEBA BE... - We interrupt This Course to bring you to the recent short video- ' A NEW ENDING ' ~ A Zen Master goes up to a Hot Dog Vendor, hands him a twenty, and says, 'Make me one with everything.' Vendor hands him his meal and says 'Thanks!' Zen Master says 'Hey! What about my change?' Hot Dog vendor says 'Change must come from Within' ~ ATMAN AND BARAGON WILL RETURN TO THIS EX-SITE-ING STORY. TUNE IN NEXT TIME AS BARAGON REALIZES: 'Whoa! Whirled Peace? Armageddon outa here! ' Same AT-time, same AT-Web Site : ) - RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:48:02 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: RT Subject: Atman and Baragon: Humor Being Message: Dear RT, To funny! Can you draw? Sounds like a great comic! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:53:15 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Atman and Baragon: Humor Being Message: Great. Best read really quickly, like REALLY quickly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:57:36 (EST)
From: RT Email: HELP ME ATMAN To: Robyn and BRIAN Subject: Atman and Baragon Comic Message: Hi Robyn yes, I can sketch, render, model, but now I only draw conclusions! WEBmaster-ji I submitted twice by accident. please delete repeat. I repeat, delete repeat. Sorry! RT Department of Redundancy Department. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 15:17:47 (EST)
From: the Forum Elves Email: None To: RT Subject: Atman and Baragon Comic Message: OK, RT, we deleted your extra message, but just this once! Watch it next time. All praises to the perfect WebMaster, Forum Elves Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 15:18:19 (EST)
From: Charles Email: None To: RT Subject: Atman and Baragon Comic Message: And I was sure it was intentional. Must of been... I am filled ignited off to carry wood chop water read the menu again and agin catch bullets revert to old ways nothing intentional i suppose Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 16:20:08 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: RT Subject: eating in style Message: Yo, RT, know any good restaurants? Maybe you can show your menu if you're not too shy? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 09:10:35 (EST)
From: by George Email: Apple4256@aol.com To: Everyone Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: in looking at the recent rash of promaharaji postings here I've realized that there is an emphasis on how Maharaji's been saying the same thing for 30 years, etc.etc. I agree. But I strongly disagree with what he's been saying. What I think he's been saying is 'FOLLOW ME' If you accept the model of a concerned altruistic guy working day and night so that people can recieve knowledge, you miss the Rawat Bottom Line Which is: ( choose from any of the below) I'm the big cheese Surrender to me You need a master Devotion to me is a normal consequence of recieving knowledge All love you get is bogus except mine Remember me at death Everything that happens good in your life is 'my grace' Without the Master you are lost You are always the student This master/student thing is lifelong Guru is your 'living God' You get the picture. THAT'S THE COMMON THREAD OF ALL THIS the knowledge techniques( Kriya so hung to Kriya passive Word) have changed Maharaji's divinity/infallibility has been reprogrammed Bhakti rituals have changed the RAWAT 5 have disbanded the hierarchy has been compressed Satsangs have been altered Programs are different Heavy Knowledge is now 'Knowledge Lite' ( thanks Jim) but every program every publication every fundraiser every Premie to premise sentence is about gratitude reverence 'we are not worthy' hoping for the Darshan of, blessings of, etc. etc . . . this nice sweet humble altruistic guy - NOT ! you know it is sort of like wanting to marry God and waking up with the Rawat family and mindset as your In-laws- and they won't go away! EVER ! Ijust wish that Premies would just say' Hey,'I'm practicing Bhakti here. Leave me Alone. In order to rev up my experience, M must be my 'superior power in person' Otherwise, this thing won't work. So what if I'm a member of an Ostrich Cult. I REALLY GET OFF ON IT! So don't pick on my Superior Power.' at least in would be honest. not ,' of course we all knew blah, blah,blah . . .' shame on you, George. No one here has ever said knowledge sucks,its phony. Maybe people haven't gotten a good experience from it, that's all. The problem here is 'the MESSENGER'S MESSAGE not some nice meditation techniques, by George . . . Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 11:45:34 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: by George Subject: That you, Mark? Message: Somehow, I think the above post was by Mark, not George. Don't know what tells me that. Premie intuition, I guess. Anyway, your point is well taken. Thanks. By the way, though, someone else said 'Knowledge Lite' first. Can't recall who. Don't think it was me. Thanks anyway. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 11:14:56 (EST)
From: Mark Email: None To: Jim Subject: That you, Mark? Message: yes, just computer ineptness Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 13:57:11 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: by George Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: all love you get is bogus except mine He didn't say it like that. What I recall is that he said the love you experience with your girlfriend et al will not last and this love will last. He went on to say that the love you feel for one another is like the love of god. Another thing you brought up: the family, the Rawat family in particular. That was one of the more suprising and distressing features of that experience I had with Fakiranand. When I was in the presence of the Divine it was a family. I didn't expect that. Ah, they were in the darkness (another question) and I couldn't see them to identify them but the feeling I had was not necessarily of the Rawats or their spirit counterparts. I know this is somewhat or largely impertinent but I am actually looking for answers. If I don't trust myself then who can I trust? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:07:15 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: charles Subject: charles won't like this Message: What I recall is that he said the love you experience with your girlfriend et al will not last and this love will last. He went on to say that the love you feel for one another is like the love of god. You think that your wife, your husband, your children will give you love? No. It's the love of selfishness. Baby loves mother because mother gives milk, not because they have a connection. No. Just because of selfish love. In the same way, you love everything because of selfishness. But we love guru without any selfishness. It is pure and perfect love, it is the love which cannot be disturbed by mind at all. The Lord of The Universe, December 10, 1971 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:31:23 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Jim Subject: charles doesn't mind Message: Thanks Jim. I stand corrected. A girlfriend took away all the old magazines I had. I've forgotten the name DLM used for them. She said all pictures and magazines were being recalled. It was in the 80's. Of course we could discuss the verity of the assertion in what you quoted. That would seem heartless wouldn't it? I mean, to even entertain the notion that there is any truth in it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 15:34:49 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: charles Subject: shades of Fahrenheit 451 Message: Charles you wrote: 'A girlfriend took away all the old magazines I had. I've forgotten the name DLM used for them. She said all pictures and magazines were being recalled. It was in the 80's.' What!?!? (notice the mixed punctuation marks for added effect) Is this true? How was this done? Was there a huge bonfire somewhere? I keep learning new stuff that just boggles my brain. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 15:39:28 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: John Subject: shades of Fahrenheit 451 Message: Dear John, Are you John K. or John from South Africa? Sorry, just a bit confused. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 16:04:21 (EST)
From: John SA Email: molode@mweb.co.za To: Robyn Subject: shades of Fahrenheit 451 Message: Hi Robyn. No, not John from SA but the mind boggles all the same. I couldn't work out what you were on about in your previous post.. then I 'saw the light'. God I'm dumb! molode is a shortening of my co name .. the 'mweb' is for real - ironic isn't it, and very amusing considering the permutations John SA. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 16:36:52 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: John Subject: shades of Fahrenheit 451 Message: It's true. She was, she said, following instructions. So, of course, I couldn't object more than feebly. I mean I didn't object but feebly. I did hide or fail to expose some pictures even after I assured her that she had gotten everything. I did that because I heard Mahatma Fakiranand of the BIG SHADOW over me say that in 'the latter days' people would scurry about to find a picture to show to the cosmic judge in the hope of a reprive. So I still have that one or two and have persisted in my superstition a label i am fond of sticking on others. I suppose they burned them. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 16:53:39 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: John Subject: shades of Fahrenheit 451 Message: This is what I heard from a more involved premie awile back, too. I have never minded very well, so I kept mine. They have helped to remind me what a load of beliefs was dumped on me! And by my permission, which is why I'm mad at myself! I don't want to see myself again as a victim, but I was deceived as well as guilelessly deluded! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:54:18 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Charles Subject: You may mind this Message: You think that your wife, your husband, your children will give you love? No. It's the love of selfishness. Baby loves mother because mother gives milk, not because they have a connection. No. Just because of selfish love. In the same way, you love everything because of selfishness. But we love guru without any selfishness. It is pure and perfect love, it is the love which cannot be disturbed by mind at all. If we consider guru as any force which brings one from 'darkness' to light' in in effect, burns out or unburdens the brain of any memes, this statement could be considered as 'true'. What is left after 'memes' are dispatched? Now that is the question. For a detailed explanation of memes see: http://www.memes.org.uk/meme-lab/DART96.HTM I'm out there rowing hard on this one. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 16:21:43 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Gerry Subject: You may mind this Message: I read the report on memes. Thank you. I have some observations, some memes. I have told my friend Steve to meditate on the unreality of this existence. Am I his friend? I have spoken of the small study of Zen I have done, did do, before I was initiated by Mahatma Fakiranand, that old dancing magician. I heard him once say, (this is a close paraphrase) 'you say it is the genetic code. O.K. But what IS the genetic code?' Honest. I was sitting there when he said it. It is one of the sayings that has remained with me. memes: '...not best, truest, most helpful, but the survivors.' I agree, but i am clearly not filled with the survivors, or is that it at all. Maybe I am just 'full of it' ,JT, and everyone is standing around... But the body, genes, seems to be the bully on the block or the silent lover awaiting good treatment. I think the Buddhist teaching has been inviting us to use the mind to do its best to outsmart the limiting memes. Now, to the question about awakening at the end of her lecture. It could be satguru, whatever that is. Maybe that is only hope, only selfish weakness. I await you and deeply appreciate your rowing. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 16:25:39 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: charles Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: Dear Charles, You said 'If I can't trust myself,who can I trust?' and this is a question I've been tussling with. I was once so sincere and sure of myself and my knowledge of what was true based on my feelings and experiences. And I had felt I found proof of the truth of the Knowledge and thus the giver of it...which is all invalidated now. I am walking in a dark valley, wondering if I will feel sure of anything again. carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 16:46:25 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: carol Subject: a couple of pennies worth Message: Carol, I know how you feel. But, I have grown to really like the vagueness of my life now compared to when I worshipped GMJ. Life is so much simpler now. Me and ...whatever you want to call it, life, reality, the unknown, God, ??. I feel it's a relief not having the guru hanging around as THE ULTIMATE GIFT that I had to somehow REALIZE. It was like a carrot dangling somewhere in front of me constantly reminding me that I was not complete. Yet, aren't I complete already? Of course I am. We are alive. What else is there to know? The fact is, that state of worship can come upon us at any time in any place or circumstance. it's not tied to HIS lotus feet. Anyway, the fun of being human is being stupid and lost. It's what we are supposed to experience. IMHO! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 22:52:49 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: John Subject: a couple of pennies worth Message: Nice post, John. Well said. I like the carrot analogy. We have all we need IMHO, too. It may be uncomfortable having things so ambiguous (when we are stupid and lost), but that does keep things from getting too dull. :) VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 16:55:31 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: carol Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: One interesting realization that arose for me upon arriving here is that I felt the insularity that I experienced as a premie or in my approach to being a premie. I could feel that my approach to others was one of, I am protected and better than you. That is for sure delusional. I am not sure at all though whether it was knowledge or just my adaptation of it to my needs. Probably the latter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 17:07:47 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: charles Subject: Yes,lost insulation. Message: Charles,I am felling fear at the moment and loss of protection of my own faith (not in M because I haven't had clear faith in him in a long time, just hadn't admitted it). Unfortunately for me, John, it doesn't feel good at the moment to be stupid and lost. One thing I can always rely on though is that life is in motion and things do not stay the same. I wish I could laugh about it all again, but instead I cry. I need to take a break from scrutiny and see if some of the barriers and negativity I'm feeling, goes away. My best wishes to all of you. carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 01:25:13 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: carol Subject: Lost insulation. Message: Hi Carol - I'm not sure if you'll read this, but I want to say that I think that I know what you mean about the 'lost insulation', and that it IS scary. Some of the posts on this forum, and some books I've read since I've been posting here, have challenged and demolished some long-held and cherished beliefs that I've had for a long time. I didn't believe in M anymore, but there were some other things I believed in and took for granted, and I felt sad for a while when I couldn't believe in them any more. Hope you are OK. Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 05:12:11 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: carol Subject: Yes,lost insulation. Message: Dear Carol Have the best time just for yourself. I hope you feel better soon, and not so lost. Love, Judex Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 01:30:12 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: charles Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: Charles - You said that, upon encountering the forum I felt the insularity that I experienced as a premie or in my approach to being a premie. I could feel that my approach to others was one of, I am protected and better than you. That's quite similar to how I felt when I was a premie. I think that most of the premies I knew felt that way - that we were somehow special and 'different' because we had received knowledge. Unfortunately this did cause problems in my life - I found it very hard to relate to people who had not received knowledge, and I felt very separated from other 'ordinary' people. After I decided not to follow M, and not to practice K anymore, it took years before I got over that feeling of being 'different'. To me this was one of the most destructive manifestations of being a premie. Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 18:29:18 (EST)
From: John SA Email: None To: carol Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: Carol. Ditto!! And having figure-out, and accepting and understanding that independent, civil-minded, and sincere and true visionaries and whole cultures, who meant to help themselves and others to appreciate and enjoy the awesome complexities of our own individual human nature, created a God or Gods and Godesses, spirits and heroes and heroines, and 'anti' heroes and heroines (with human psychological attributes), who were identified and respected in that context in the great myths, scriptures and folk-tales, and that somewhere along our way the big picture got lost for whatever reason .. reality became distorted and the excercise declined into literal thinking and a winner takes all situation (in our minds naturally), and in the process our con- sciousness and understanding of the pure and simple, unconditional practical, active spark/force/energy/SOUL - THE 'real' thing (comment VP) that gives us potential and a life to begin with, became completely overshadowed by the ensuing battles ... if you get my drift ??? My experience and understanding of knowledge brought it all together for me and if I can't trust myself to reason and rationalise my life to my own and others benefit, then who can I trust walking down this dark valley wondering if I'll ever feel sure of anything again? John SA Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 02:55:09 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: John SA Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: Ditto 2....God, I hate that! I WISH that I could be satisfied believing in something, no *knowing* is what I want, beyond doubt. How is it that these sort of things are not troublesome to many other people? I know some of them are to busy just trying to survive, but what about those with time on their hands? I know many people personally who don't give much thought to questions of truth or God/Goddess. Are we the lucky ones who are plagued with the desire to know and be free? I give up! (Actually I can't, but maybe that's the answer!)Sigh ^\^ carol ~ Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 15:59:54 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: carol Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: Dear Carol, Judex and John SA, It is most probably a natural process you are going through. It just makes sense. Can you look at this in a different way? eb (should I capitalize that because it is the beginning of a senctence, that has happened to me once before!) and I have briefly discussed this. Each of us has taken in that which resonated with us and incorporate what fits for us from any source that comes into our conscience as they come and go we leave behind or keep with us what feels right for us. I think it was a post of Keith's about that other guru of his from his past. He gained what he could and has now moved on. I don't regret finding K and although I am sorry for the pain BM has caused so many I keep the meditaion because it works for me. It doesn't work for Katie so she hasn't kept it as a practice. I think she makes tapes for people instead! :)) Anyway my point is that in time, I hope, anyone who is hurting because of false trust in a person undeserving of that trust will eventually be able to appreciate what good came from the experience, if any and be able to move on to the next lesson/experience this life offers. They all build on each other and looking back over the years some things begin to get clear while others become more confused. It is a constantly changing and growing experience, IMHO. Love you all, Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 05:17:04 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: John SA Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: Dear John, the distortions you described happened with Maharaji too. Anything humans touch will be imperfect. But it doesn't have to be dark, just because you let go a bit of a belief or a structure which helped you. Think about the ways it helped you, and what good you got from it. That is one thing I do sometimes to restore my faith in the choices I made. And the next choice will be wiser, if you really work through your decision adn know why you are making it. You don't have to jump into outer space, just stay in touch with yourself and what you are feeling. the same you who felt happy and good with knowledge can still feel happy and good. It was always you feeling those feelings. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 18:51:24 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: carol Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: There are names for what you are experiencing, Carol, for the not-being-so-sure, and seeing-both-sides feelings we have. It's called maturity. It's called growing up. That 'simple answer' blather we were taught by BM, if we were to hold onto it like some still do, is a recipe for immaturity, for never growing up, at least in that area of beliefs. I agree with John, I find I am open to so much more in my life, if I don't already think I know the answer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 02:58:09 (EST)
From: carol Email: None To: JW Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: I suppose you are both right. My chest hurts! It makes me so sad. This is quite a journey, I hope it goes somewhere! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 05:20:59 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: carol Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: Where you are might be that you are facing up to some things. This can take a bit of adjustment, realignment, confusion. Just be kind to yourself and do things you enjoy for a while. Do some physcial activities or go away for the weekend if you can. Spoil yourself. There are good things in life as well as difficult. don't be afraid of being real with yourself. That includes taking care of yourself. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 18:57:39 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: by George Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: What I think he's been saying is 'FOLLOW ME' If you accept the model of a concerned altruistic guy working day and night so that people can recieve knowledge, you miss the Rawat Bottom Line Which is: ( choose from any of the below) I'm the big cheese Surrender to me You need a master Devotion to me is a normal consequence of recieving knowledge All love you get is bogus except mine...snip Okay, fine, I agree. Anybody who was a premie for more than 10 minutes knows this is true, although it might not be kosher for premies to say it anymore, and maybe BM beats around the bush, too. But what is the aim of saying this? Is it because he wants the money, he wants to be worshipped, wants to think he's important, or what? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 12:35:55 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: JW Subject: His Message Never Changes Message: You know, it could just be that Mr. Rawat does what he does because it is a profitable business and pretty damn easy. His stage performance is nothing much. I know amateurs who dance circles around him. And I also know what it feels like to have people come up to me and say, 'You were great.' It feels good. I really glom on to it. Because I am as uncertain as I am and have such a critical view of myself as a performer I really look for approval and support. He probably likes all that attention and all that love he doesn't have to do anything to earn or serve. He's not the only one who acts like this under similar circumstances. I say that not to excuse him but to add credence to the notion that he may be doing it for the obvious perks and nothing else. Carol: I know from my probably disturbed experience with my questions and fears about knowing and finding security/truth/freedom that those thoughts never leave me no matter how much fun I am having. Or if they do leave it is never for long. And this implies that those thoughts are a source of disturbance and disease. The recommendation that I have heard about how to deal with it is to be one pointed with the task or play at hand. Those are the times when I get out of their way and time flies. But problems do arise that come to be like the Gordian Knot and no solution seems possible. I have spent the past 6 years with one of those - all in all a rather miserable 6 years. I made a decision of a moral sort and decided to stick to it. (Moral questions are those silly ones about right and wrong) Well, I had the right tunnel even if it didn't have any cheese and I got no cheese. Now I have all that to unravel or be Alexander like and just cut through it. The story of the Gordian Knot would be a good koan for me. Thankyou. I'm thinking out loud. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 07:29:09 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: DOC and all Subject: I'll show you mine DOC if.... Message: Dear DOC, I guess its interesting that you had a white suite, but not that much. It's just that you reminded me of a 'type' of premie which I remember quite clearly, the long term survivor who never quite commits fully but is always around the periphery...Always coming out on top...Never losing...Always hedging your bets... I bet you have plenty of life insurance right. In fact I bet that's how you see knowledge. A little something put away for a rainy day. It's a nice little club for someone in your income bracket, they have groovy weekend events, a quality magazine and a handy wallet-sized philosophy which can show a different picture according to the company you keep. It's a shame about the collateral damage inflicted on certain parts of the membership but, hey, that's their problem right. Somehow they got it wrong. It's certainly got nothing to do with you or Maharaji right! It's a personal path to enlightenment my friends and it's every premie for himself. If you have to tread on a few necks to climb the pyramid? what the heck, it's an evolutionary process and only the strong make it! Is that really how you see it? Well what goes around comes around DOC, better start checking over your shoulder. You woudn't be the first and you won't be the last premie whose grasp on reality buckles under the weight of all that compromise. So let's get real DOC. Is that short for documentary, you know the really carefully edited version that provides an impression but no real facts? I'll tell you what, I'll show you mine if you show me yours, OK. My name is Richard Harris, I live in the UK and received knowledge in 1971. I've never been to G'ville(?) and I am about as musical as a bucket. Among the things that I was taught by Maharaji are; smoking, drinking, drugs, sex and material possessions are distractions that strengthen the mind and will prevent you from realising your true potential as a spiritual being, the knowledge can only be realised by service to the Perfect Master, listening to and giving satsang and practicing the four meditation techniques for at least 1 hour a day (but be in the Word constantly), finally, and most interestingly, is Maharaji's explanation for the need of every human being to practice knowledge (I was about 5 feet away at the time and there must be a transcript). Yours version: hope that after I died I would get to be with that ultimate. Maharaji's version: In answer to a premie's question about what happens to premies as opposed to non-premies when you die...........nothing, you merge with the light whether you are a premie or not. You are separate beings now but then you merge and it is too late to see the beauty of Perfect Master. It is the same for everyone. The whole point of practicing knowledge is that you will realise who the Perfect Master is and to be in his company. Like Krishna with the gopis, he came and gave them knowledge so that they could play with him. We must practice the knowledge so that we can appreciate the great gift of this human form before it is too late.... It dosn't sound like the spiritual golf club you claim to be a member of DOC. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 08:19:26 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Richard Subject: Gift of human form Message: We must practice the knowledge so that we can appreciate the great gift of this human form before it is too late.... Yes that got me quite a bit. I imagined I would be dancing with the light. I saw everything falling into place; my life would be right for the first time in my life. All my gifts would be realised. Somehow I got the version (from a premie) that I could have everything as long as I wasn't attached to it. I was like a virgin the week before the wedding. One of my favourite lines of all time is in the move 'Bladerunner' where the android (forget his name) (Max?) says the stuff about 'I've seen flaming battleships on the horizon of .....(planet), I've seen sunrises over the top of ...(other worlds) etc, and now it's all dissolving like teardrops in the rain..' It's much better than that. The sentiment being, no matter how beautiful, how magnificent your life, one day you will lie there dying and you can do nothing about it. People go in and out of consciousness when they are dying with or without knowledge. I don't know how hard one should try to live life knowing it will end permanently, how do you 'appreciate this great gift of the human form' any more than you already do? Does knowledge heighten your experience of life? I don't think so. I don't know. I know these days I feel mellow and content inside, better than I was feeling when I identified as a 'premie'. I don't know what I've learned but I something good is happening to me. Actually the story of the chewed rabbit is what comes to mind - what is the name of that story? they told it when I was in drug recovery - this toy pet always wants to be a real rabbit, adn then one day he gets thrown on the rubbish heap with one eye missing and a chewed ear...and then he becomes real. Gosh, I'm getting tired but I've really enjoyed reading tonight. Goodnight all you bunnies. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 12:59:23 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Judex Subject: Gift of human form Message: The Velveteen RabbitHope you slept well! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 13:43:30 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Judex & Richard Subject: Gift of human form Message: Richard: That's what I have thought ever since that experience with Fakiranand, that everyone merges with that Light. The saying from the bible I used to quote to myself and others was, 'He maketh His rain to fall upon the just and the unjust alike. He is no respecter of persons.' (Me and my bible quotes) But only lately, after joining this site, did I begin to wonder about this chance as a human being, as a witness. As a witness was how i took it. This was like a chance to have your cake and eat it too or something like that. And it never had anything to do with status or playing it safe, though I sure have done that: play it safe. It was about letting go. Yeah, country club shmuntry club. Jude: I'll come back. I got carried away and forgot. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:24:42 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Judex Subject: Gift of human form, Judex Message: Now I remember. I am curious about that rabbit story. The Velveteen Rabbit was it? I'll go look. I had a vision before I was initiated of a cosmic dump and a dumpy little tender of it. I was being offered as a candidate. He looked at me and said, 'HIM?!' and walked off. The word 'him' was loaded with contempt. And it was contempt for my pride and presence not the lack of same. This dump was composed of endless piles of dust and wherever his feet touched that dust came alive and started on The Way. I had not heard of Guru Maharaj Ji. It was 1969 or something. Appreciating the gift of the human form: I have, for about a day now, been sensing this doctrine of anatta or no soul. Of knowing this body as insubstantial, not mine or not me. I avoided the word 'I'. I would say, upon speaking as the actor, as the I, 'The simulcrum is speaking.' (I just looked up that word. I wasn't sure if it was right and it was.) I do not think this doctrine or experience is invalid or demeaning. It is very old. But I can't say it is exactly exciting or validating either. So what does that have to do with appreciating human form? I think it opens the potential of being human up to something beyond the cause and effect of the day to day and it does it without having to exactly do anything or come up to some standard. So I suppose there is a potential to be beyond the round of birth and death which I think is what we are talking about here. And I want to go on to say that I think this that we are doing is satsang. This is the company of truth. Thankyou, Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:43:55 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Judex Subject: Rabbit Message: Dear Jude, That is the Velveteen Rabbit. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 12:06:55 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Richard Subject: I'll show you mine DOC if.... Message: Thanks Richard. You were more civil and far more articulate. I got to thinking this was a disabling prejudice of mine, one that I have carried for much of my life, but again, Thank you. charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 23:58:21 (EST)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Maharaji and us Message: I've always considered that I am somewhat of a free spirit, in the sense that I've never liked to follow anyone or anyones words blindly. I have a love of Truth and have naturally had a love of those who I consider to be speaking 'truths', or perhaps satsang. I've been familiar with feelings of devotion to various teachers that I have come across with over the years. I love the feeling that such people evoke in me and can't help feeling a love for the person that is coming from such a place within. When it comes to telling me what to do with my life that is when my heels dig in. The teachers whom I admire the most have fitted into the category of those who encourage my free spirit and to not be a sheep and to learn to trust in myself in the deepest sense of the word. I've always considered Maharaji to be one such teacher. But I've been seriously questioning this lately. I've been through far too much over these past few months to encapsulate everything here but just feel inspired to put a few things in. Something I find somewhat disturbing is the thought that premies will and appears to justify everything that M says, for example; that if we all did start to express openly that basically this would cause havoc. Well, what disturbs me is this, if suddenly M had a change of heart, everyone else would also and start to justify this stand point. It seems what M says is gospel and if you think differently premies seem to arrogantly feel that you are a rebel and that you are obviously wrong because M didn't say it. M seems to be encouraging sheep like behaviour. Regardless of how much I respect what M is doing and can not critizise his essential stance in regard to giving knowledge to the world , I cannot accept a teacher telling me and it seems all premies to behave like sheep. I love the feeling of feeling devoted to the teachers that i respect but i cannot understand Ms need to ask for devotion and attention to him. I'd rather just feel it if I do and let people be what they are without asking that devotion to the master be neccessary. I do not enjoy the way premies appear so mute, and it's become very common and matter of fact that people refer to the sat sang days of peoples ramblings. If I had not had the good fortune of experiencing some of these 'ramblings' myself I would be feeling that most premies really do not have much worthwhile to share. When I was first introduced to Maharajis world I thought I was one of the few intelligent concious aware sort of people that walked the planet! But to my delight I soon discovered that the premie world was full of people who had similar qualities and knew how to share from a deep,insightful and genuine place from within themselves. You just wouldn't know it these days. One couldn't help assume that the only person who has anything worthwhile to say is Maharaji. It is part of the joys of life to share with other people and to realize how much others have to share. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 00:39:15 (EST)
From: bb Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Maharaji and us Message: well said mira bai. I think there is room for criticising his 'essential stance' of 'giving knowledge to the world' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 02:13:02 (EST)
From: Jedex Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Maharaji and us Message: It is part of the joys of life to share with other people and to realize how much others have to share. Well said, I totally agree. I don't think I would have bothered to go and listen to M if someone had said to me - there is someone who can show you how to go inside - go and have a listen - it's beautiful, or whatever. I went because I was given satsang by a very long-serving premie who told me over and over that what M was offering was the divinity inside, the way to get off the wheel, that he was the living perfect master, and so on. I have seen 'light' in people who love M, sometimes, when they talked about him with great love. I have come to believe that he is a focus for us, and that the love and the light is in us. If we no longer see him as an inspiration or a mirror, to reflect and encourage the consciousness and growth of that beautiful part of ourselves, then for me personally I believe I can go just on god's grace. Keep posting if you want, Mirabai, it's nice to hear from you and you will find other people here to discuss your issues with. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 03:50:45 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Mirabai Subject: Wholeheartedly agree Message: It is part of the joys of life to share with other people and to realize how much others have to share. Yes, I agree. And, when I heard about knowledge, if someone had said to me, there's someone who can show you how to go inside, and it's beautiful, I probably would not have been interested. It was the fact that a very devoted premie told me about M being the Perfect Master, the one who could reveal our divinity to us, the only one walking the earth, that knowledge is what we are born to find, and so on, that made me decide to listen, and keep listening. I also saw a light in those telling me about M, when they were giving satsang to me, talking of their love and how beautiful he is. Now I believe that light is always inside, and it is our own love that is being revealed. If M no longer has the capacity to inspire my love in that way, and if I don't need him to be my mirror, I have decided to rely on god's grace from now on. If I believe in that, then I believe that I learnt something from M, and he helped me re-find my heart. But now it is time for me to realise that it belongs to me, is mine to feel and express, and that my love has always and always will be there, with or without a Master. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 05:02:20 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Judex Subject: DUPLICATE POST Message: Oh how embarassing...I tried to post the first time and it didnt show up, so I did it again from memory. Sorry!! Duuuuhhhhh.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 07:38:26 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Mirabai Subject: Maharaji and us Message: If I had not had the good fortune of experiencing some of these 'ramblings' myself I would be feeling that most premies really do not have much worthwhile to share. When I was first introduced to Maharajis world I thought I was one of the few intelligent concious aware sort of people that walked the planet! I remember the first time I spoke up at satsang. There was a quiet lull and I spoke. Everyone's eyes turned to me, and the support was visible - not for WHAT I was saying, but for WHO was saying it. Speaking during satsang became common and natural, and overflowed to being able to speak at any time and anywhere regarding what I was experiencing in life. I also remember being questioned on the street by some bible-toting Jesus freaks who had recognized me not by the guru button that I had forgotten to put on, but by my eyes! We sat on the tree lawn by the street and I gave them satsang. There were 5 of them listening to me talk, and flipping their bible pages back and forth as they looked up their own beliefs. There was no need for me to tell them 'Look, come see a video, and Maharaji will tell you what I am feeling'. Now premeis act like those Jesus freaks - deferring to Maharaji as scripture. Knowledge USED to be about me. Now it's about Maharaji. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 12:24:08 (EST)
From: Mild Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Brian Subject: The absence of Maharaji Message: Interesting post that Brian. It reminds me of the first and last times that I spoke about K to people. First time was when I volunteered to do Divine Sales and hassle people for junk, door to door. Someone invited me in and I sat with a family I'd never met before and expounded about the knowledge etc and it felt just great. I walked away feeling on top of the world and couldn't care less that the Divine Sales van had left the area without me. The last time was recently when I told a friend of mine about meditation and proceded to show her some of the techniques. It was a very liberating experience for me because I felt free to show someone how to meditate, without any guru restrictions. Just me and my friend and I got really high and 'blissed out'. Conclusion: There will come a time when these meditation techniques are widely known and people will be free to talk about them without the mystique of gurus or hinduism. Meditation and talking about it can be a most uplifting experience for all concerned. A most happy time for all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 13:11:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Mild Cheddar Subject: That's it, Brian Message: Brian, You're absolutely right. There's something so cartoonishly Orwellian about this mum premie video scene. Completely over the top. Certainly no less bizarre than Heaven's Gate (minus the suicide of course) or any other cult. You know, people adjust to anything pretty well and it's not surprising to see premies accpet this video thing as a reasonable practice. But, tell me, premies, do you really expect that outsiders who really understood what your Maharaji things has devolved into would be so generous in their opinions? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 14:34:17 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Mild Cheddar Subject: The absence of Maharaji Message: Ohh, yeah! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 15:09:12 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Mild Cheddar Subject: The absence of Maharaji Message: Dear Ched, Just about every time I read a post of yours I feel like hugging you, or getting a hug from you. You are a wonderful person! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 21:02:38 (EST)
From: English Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Robyn Subject: The hug for Robyn Message: Thanks Robyn. Consider yourself hugged. I will mail you very about children etc. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 09:47:28 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Mild Cheddar Subject: The absence of Maharaji Message: Dear David, I wasn't going to talk today, bad day y'know. But just reading your post about satsang and sharing techniques hit a spot. I was doing an evening class on English Lit. a few years ago and one of the modules required each of us to speak for 15 minutes about something we knew well. Others had spoken about subjects as diverse as furniture restoration and their timeshare apartments but I was stumped until I got the courage to talk about meditation. To begin with I told them the old story about controlling the monster by making it climb the greasy pole again and again (mantra). Then I asked them to listen to their breath in total silence for while. Then I could not help but to start to talk about the experience of total peace. It was wild, I hadn't felt that high since satsang in the ashram. Then they started to ask questions which led to more satsang. It went on for maybe an hour or more, nobody got up, nobody complained about being held back and the pure bliss of making heart to heart contact with these brothers and sisters was made all the more exquisite by the feeling that I had done it naturally and without 'official' sanction. I know they felt something too. Anyway, also your mention of Divine Sales struck a chord, do you remember Milky? Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 20:55:34 (EST)
From: English Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Richard Subject: Where are they now? Message: Remember Milky - how could I ever forget him? Yes Milky and his band of Divine Sales premies were my constant companions many evenings as we trod the London suburbs looking for junk. What's Milky (Michael Cole) up to now? The last time I knew him was about twenty years ago when he opened a new Divine Sales shop in Forest Hill. He lived in the flat above with his Asian girlfriend and we used to have satsanf there. Milky was what one would call a 'wide boy' wasn't he. A likable guy. Although Milky and I did have a major disagreement over the techniques when he gave a 'knowledge review' in the ashram I lived in once (Wolverhampton). Incidentally, evry knowledge review I ever got was different and I eventually came to the conclusion that one should just practise it your own way, how it feels best. To digress; the best K review I ever got was from Arthur Brigham or Param Premanand as Maharaji called him. He was full of enthusiasm and inspiration about the Knowledge and Maharaji was rarely mentioned. The next day I remember still being on cloud nine as I went to work. Arthur was a bit heavy but he did have enthusiasm for K and was not afraid to show it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 15:05:00 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Brian Subject: Maharaji and us Message: Dear Brian, Good post. I was happy to hear that sat sang helped you find your voice but the second paragraph is very poignant. Thanks. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 17:56:56 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Brian Subject: Maharaji and us Message: Brian: That's an excellent point, that MJ is now set up as scripture. Not really what it was supposed to be about, is it? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 20:07:24 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Maharaji and us Message: No, it wasn't. That I can recall. But I wanted it to be like that. It was one of my more farfetched fantasies about Maharaj Ji and Knowledge. I wanted to be in on the ground floor of a new and better faith. I could see us riding space ships and spreading Knowledge throughout the galaxy, er universe. And I hadn't really given up that notion. I am sure glad I got here. I know you all can appreciate the humor/laughability of that. charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 20:12:43 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: charles Subject: entry level cult opportunity Message: Yes, charles (sorry, I almost wrote 'Charles') it was pretty neat thinking we were the first people in the world to hail the new messiah. Of course Maharaji played that card for all it was worth. It was particularly useful in getting us to give up anything else we might possibly have had in life: 'serve now while your input might, by his Grace, make a difference.' 'Tomorrow,' as he cautioned us, 'will be too late. The work will al be done and boy, will you be sorry you didn't dive in and reserve your spot in book of books or whatever..... akashic records, I guess.' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 20:19:44 (EST)
From: Mirabai Email: None To: Brian Subject: Maharaji and us Message: Hi Brian, The scene below really made me laugh. 'I also remember being questioned on the street by some bible-toting Jesus freaks who had recognized me not by the guru button that I had forgotten to put on, but by my eyes! We sat on the tree lawn by the street and I gave them satsang. There were 5 of them listening to me talk, and flipping their bible pages back and forth as they looked up their own beliefs. There was no need for me to tell them 'Look, come see a video, and Maharaji will tell you what I am feeling'. Now premeis act like those Jesus freaks - deferring to Maharaji as scripture.' 'Knowledge USED to be about me. Now it's about Maharaji.' It does seem to be that way more than I can reconcile with at the moment. If there were more open comunication then these things could be discussed between everybody. Maybe maharajis way is just not compatable with me right now. I need to be completely free.I'm open to being wrong,I'm not fixed about anything,there's no need to be. sincerely Mirabai. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 23:42:24 (EST)
From: bill burke Email: None To: Everyone Subject: I say doc is rawat (maharaji) Message: scroll down below and take another look Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 01:20:01 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: bill burke Subject: I say doc is George Message: Docs reply to my post, 'What a premie really is' didn't seem very Rawat like. I think George is doc. But who is John Hammond-Smyth? David Smith perhaps? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 01:45:22 (EST)
From: *>*..bb Email: None To: Sir David Subject: I say doc is George Message: the doc response fits the rawat profile also. again it is YOUR fault for 'attaching religious connotations' HE is the clear one who has always been blameless and above all the --premie created confusion--HE always has the pose of the one who makes no mistakes and is happy to spoon on the 'within you' spiel when he himself can't even tell us the truth about his own past and his accurate part in it. CHeck out the other threads he started, On the last one he let go and showed more than enough to show his character. I havent checked out george yet. Mr 'I AM GOD' can't even muster the first step in the direction of honesty. His long term self professed perfection is evidence enough that those that see the 'I AM GOD' eastern view go insane. Thier insanity can SOUND like there might be something to it, but the reality is they are quite evidently deluded and nuts and cannot tell the truth because of thier spiritual ego. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 06:01:13 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: *>*..bb Subject: I say doc is George Message: I see what you mean Bill but if any old premie had stuck with the Maharaji trip for this long, wouldn't he sound like that anyway? But you do have a point. I reread Doc's response to my post 'What a Premie really is' and I must admit that Rawat 'could' have written that. The reason I doubt that he did is because I specifically talk about devotion to a living God incarnate. I would have expected a more positive response from Maharaji about this subject, considering that much of his philosophy and background is based upon stories of Krishna and Arjuna and the like. I for one would prefer it if Maharaji DID post here. It would fullfill a useful purpose of having this web site dedicated to him! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 20:42:07 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Sir David/bb Subject: I say doc is George Message: David, You said,'I see what you mean Bill but if any old premie had stuck with the Maharaji trip for this long, wouldn't he sound like that anyway?' YES! Everytime an old (American sounding) premie comes onto the forum, I think that it is a friend of mine. I don't think it is paranoia as much as it is what you said above. There have been 5 or 6 premies since I have been posting who could all be the same person. They say the same old things. bb, I laugh everytime you say that a premie is rawat, because I am always thinking they are my friend. I don't know about that John Hammond-Smyth, though. He hasn't gotten into the nineties yet, has he? VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 15:12:52 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: *>*..bb Subject: doc/BM Message: Dear *>*, I haven't had enough time on the forum lately and haven't read everything from doc but I must confess I had the same thought/wondering if Doc is BM? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 28, 1998 at 05:41:50 (EST)
From: Judex Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Forum Fighters Committee Message: Glad you too thought that... I thought Doc might have been on a mission from BM to give us the 'reasonable' answer to our protests, when I read his first post (sorry, Doc!) I imagined this service committee set up to deal with us! Imagine, they plow through all the archives, taking notes, and come up with a list of the most common grievances! then they give the list to M. He reads it, smoking his pipe and kicking his dog, then he sends them forth to shut us all up with some quality answers. Only trouble is, they never go back! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 07:44:39 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: bill burke Subject: Who are you, and where is bb? Message: Name in the From field... Subject in the Subject field... If it weren't for the content of the post I would SWEAR that you were an imposter!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 04:23:46 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 1-4 Message: By the grace of some exes, here is the 1st part of the long expected masterwork. ---------------------------------------------------------- HANS YOG PRAKASH Page 1 THE GLORY OF GURU How can I describe the Perfect Master? How can one as ignorant as I possibly understand Him who is beyond all illusion? How can my dull wits explain that which is beyond understanding? about which even the scriptures can only say « It’s not this, it’s not that » This is beyond my comprehension. Therefore I bow before it from before it from afar. Oh my Guru Maharaj Ji, please give me at least the strength I need to understand You. I had hoped to praise You; I wished to be able to worship You by the power of illusion, but illusion was incapable of serving you, so what could I do? I have lost my faith in illusion, so, my Guru Maharaj Ji, You just be as You are. People cannot even imagine the Supreme Soul, so they have to make do with statues. Each person approaches God according to his personal taste. In the same way, I will utiIize this creation to sing the Glory of my Satguru. O my Satguru, all praise to You, all glory to You! O Lord of the Universe, source of all creation, supreme personality bestower of salvation, friend of the humble and the poor, only by Your blessing can this powerful illusion be dispelled, as the sun's rays dispel darkness. The sun removes darkness, but at night the darkness comes again. Our Guru Maharaj Ji is not like that. He destroys for ever the cycle of births and deaths, and uproots the darkness of ignorance for ever and ever. A piece of gold can never be an iron piece. In the same way a true devotee can never become a victim of doubt. When any river merges in the river Ganges, it takes the name Ganges. It becomes the Ganges and it can never be separated from it again. The same with a disciple. He becomes one with his Master. We cannot say the Satguru is like the sky, for He is infinitely more subtle. In the same way, we cannot compare Him with the ocean, for the ocean is salty. We cannot compare Him with the mountains, for the mountain s are made of rock, while Satguru is soft with mercy for His devotees. Nor can we compare Him with the earth, for one day the earth will be destroyed, but Satguru¹s patience lasts for ever. The sun too has its limits, but Satguru is limitless. The Light of Satguru's Knowledge is much more powerful than sunlight. Page 2 Nor can I compare Guru Maharaj Ji with Atlas, for Atlas carries the burden of the world on his shoulders, while Guru Maharaj Ji is burdenless, What is there to compare to Him? Everything in this world is mortal. Guru Maharaj Ji is beyond the limits of creation, and it is impossible to describe Him. The only way to describe the glory of Satguru is to say the glory o£ Satguru can never be described. Only a person with internal experience can understand this problem. My Guru is the incarnate Lord of this time. I bow before my Guru, who is greater than Christ or Buddha, for each of them was the servant of his Satguru. 'The Lords of earth, sea and sky also bow before Guru Maharaj Ji. Guru Maharaj Ji, the Giver of Knowledge, is the greatest of all. Parents give birth to the body, but when Satguru gives new birth into the Spiritual kingdom, that birth is divine, deathless and eternal. Knowledge is always new, and alive. The Perfect Master is He who fills the ears of His eager disciples with Truth and Knowledge. He allows him to enjoy the supreme eternal joy, He gives him Knowledge of salvation. He alone is the real mother and father. We have two fathers. One gives us physical birth, and the other gives us Knowledge of the Truth. That Father who `gives us Knowledge is far superior, for only God lasts for ever. All the wealth of this world is nothing compared to the gift of Satguru's Word. How can we repay Him? He who gives us the ]amp of true Knowledge is Satguru, He is God incarnate. If someone took Him to be an ordinary human being, his ignorance would make his whole life fruitless. If Lord Shiva (the Destroyer) becomes angry with you, Guru can save you. But there is no one who can help you, if Guru be comes angry. One should never go against his Guru, for Guru is both father and mother. The saints say one should always sit below one's Guru. One should wake before one's Guru, and retire after Him. This is most important for a devotee. Page 3 One should not address Guru Maharaj Ji while lying down, eating, standing far away, or facing away from Him. One should never interrupt His conversation. When receiving the Guru's command, one should always stand humbly before Him, to show Him respect. One should never call the Guru by His name to His face. ' Scriptures are many, and doubts are many. The Knowledge of the Self is very subtle, and without the help of Satguru, no one can realize it. He who wishes to know his own Self should attain this Knowledge. He should prostrate himself at the feet of the wise, render them all forms of service, and question them with a guileless heart again and again. Those wise Seers of Truth will unfold that Knowledge. In the Scriptures of ancient times it is written that this Knowledge should not be given to one of unsteady mind, but only to a son or a disciple. Only one with a peaceful mind should receive this Knowledge. He whose devotion for the Lord is only equalled by devotion to his Satguru can understand the real meaning of Truth. When Knowledge is given to someone like this, it bears fruit. Bow before the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji a million times, prostrate before Him. Guru Maharaj Ji turns His devotees into His own image. Guru Maharaj Ji by His mercy has shown us things our eyes could not see. His glory is endless. He helps us endlessly, He opens our eyes to infinity. When Guru and disciples meet, they mix together like rainfall and river. Hold Guru Maharaj Ji's Feet upon your head, obey Him at all times He who is a true servant of his Guru has no fear in all the three worlds. Suppose my Guru and God are both standing before me. Who should I bow to first? I am overwhelmed by my Guru's Grace, for it was He who showed me God, and allowed me to recognize Him. We can call Guru Maharaj Ji even when He is very far away from us. The Word will reach Him, it is always on the move. Even if I change the whole world to paper, make pens from all the trees, and use the seven oceans as my ink, I can still never write the whole glory of Satguru. Page 4 First the disciple offers his head and heart to Satguru. And then The Guru gives him the Holy Name as a reward. Guru is a washerman, and His disciple is like a soiled cloth. When the cloth is washed on the stone of Holy Name, it radiates immense light. Guru is a potter, and His disciple is the pot He is making. This is how He makes the pot perfect. With one hand, He softly lifts the clay from inside while He firmly slaps it into shape with the other. Satguru has built His castle, and decorated it with love. He makes a window of the Holy Word, so that we may also enjoy the presence of the Lord. Guru and Lord are one; all else is duality. When someone worships the Guru, and dissolves himself in love and service, he can find the Lord. When you have Knowledge, you have the joy of true love, kindness, devotion and faith. When you serve the Lotus Feet of Satguru, you find shelter at His Lotus Feet. He who thinks Guru Maharaj; Ji is a human being is blind. He will remain very unhappy in this world, and death will not relieve him of his sufferings. Guru is greater than God, it's common sense. People who think about God stay in this world. But those who know Satguru pass beyond suffering, and attain perfect freedom. If you want to know the secret of what I am saying, offer your head to Satguru. Many proud and arrogant people went down the drain on account of pride. There is no giver like Guru Maharaj Ji, and there is no beggar like His disciple. Guru Maharaj Ji gives His disciple the wealth of heaven and Earth. We should meditate upon the form of Guru. We should worship His holy Feet. His Word is the true name of God. The real Truth is to have a pure and honest feeling for Guru Maharaj Ji. If God is angry with you, you can go to the Guru, but if the Guru is displeased with you, you have no place to go. If you come and go as Guru Maharaj Ji chooses, you become a saint, and are free from the round of sufferings. When you look for reality in the wrong places, you can never... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 04:24:55 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 5-8 Message: Page 5 ..find it. But when you seek out the company of Satguru, you will find the Truth. When you take Guru Maharaj Ji's shelter, He shows you the Truth. This path was here before time began, but Guru Maharaj Ji showed it to you in a moment. This body is like poison ivy, but Guru Maharaj Ji restores the soul. You should know that to exchange your head for Satguru is the best possible bargain, and very cheap at the price. When Satguru is pleased with me, and speaks even one word, a cloud of love showers upon me, and I am soaked through and through. Satguru is a perfect Knight. He cuts you from top to bottom with firm blows. No one can see your wounds from the outside, but inside you, your ego is smashed. If I shoot someone he dies, but if Satguru hits him with the arrow of Holy Word he becomes immortal. The dumb suddenly become eloquent, the deaf receive ears, and the lame find legs when Satguru shoots them with his arrow. Guru tells us to go to a wise man, and the wise men tell us to worship Guru. This play allows me to realize the secret o£ the Scriptures, which otherwise was beyond me. There may be millions of moons, there may even be thousands of millions of suns, but only by the mercy of Satguru can one see the Light, and clear away the darkness of ignorance. The Word of the Satguru is a ship. Rare are those who understand this mystery. The ocean and the drop become one. How can I tell the difference between them? You may perform many spiritual practices and make great sacrifices, you may study many books, but without Satguru, whatever you do, you will never arrive at the Truth. Without the Knowledge of Satguru, even God, Saints and human beings will not be saved. Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva (the Creator, Preserver and Destroyer of Universes) also need the mercy of Satguru. Why speak of ordinary beings? Satguru is like sandalwood, and His perfume is love of the lord. He distributes it day and night to those who come near Him. The more time we spend in holy company, the deeper our devotion will become. Every day our devotion grows in proportion. It cannot be disturbed. Guru gives us Self Knowledge. You should serve Him with... Page 6 . ..love and devotion, offer Him food and clothes, worship Him, and give Him all respect, honour and attention. Gurus who are greedy, proud, and have many monasteries are wicked They are all looking towards the throne, and courting the respect of the people There is neither truth nor reality in them. By their fruits you shall know them. The signs of the Perfect Master are self control, love, discrimination, detachment and lack of partiality. He is without stubbornness. He is peaceful, far from anger, and treats all men equally. At all times He is absorbed in the Holy Word. He is love and affection personified. Such a Guru as this is the Supreme place of pilgrimage. Once you take a dip in His Knowledge, all your duties are fulfilled. He is the philosopher's stone. He fulfils all our wishes and desires by granting us the gift of devotion. Oh my Guru Maharaj; Ji, You are all powerful, and the only guide on the right path. You saved me from unreality and made me pure and high, by taking me away from my lower nature. I was walking a long path. My Satguru came and led me by the arm I was tired and sweating. He cooled me, sheltering me under His own shadow. When someone takes the shelter of Satguru, he finds satisfaction and learns how to behave with propriety. When he enters the storehouse of Knowledge, he finds penances and praises, confessions and chants, prayer, meditation and devotion all lying there. After I had wandered for a long time in ignorance, my luck changed, and I suddenly found Satguru. That was the moment when all my fears and ignorance flew away. I was going to follow my mind's guidance into the ditch, but Guru Maharaj; Ji caught my hand. He showed me the abode of the Lord, and even better, He took me with Him. Rare are those who can understand the glory of Satgurudev. He dispels all ignorance and removes the results of our actions. When someone is weary of the round of suffering, he can find rest at the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji. When he remembers the Holy Name, even his unwanted wants are fulfilled. Worship Guru Maharaj Ji and pray to Him again and again. He has taken us across the ocean o£ this world in the boat of His Holy Name. Page 7. A Guru should be far from selfishness. He should be engrossed in spiritual thoughts and deeds, busy helping others all the time. He should live in a garden, but should not take one flower or leaf. He should give away the love of the Lord to all, without thought of caste, colour or creed. >From Satguru you get love, devotion and meditation. From Knowledge you get purity, austerity, penance and discipline. Guru brings those who have lost the path back to their true devotion. He does not abandon them, but gives devotion for the Lord. No one should become entangled with this world of ignorance. On the other hand, no one can cross this ocean of ignorance without the help of Satguru. I bow before the Lotus Feet of my Guru Maharaj Ji who is the ocean of mercy and the Lord personified in human form. His words are like the shining rays of the sun that banish the clouds of dark ignorance. I bow before the dust of the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji. His Feet are so beautiful, full of divine perfume and nectar. It is so easy to become attached to them. The dust of His Feet is like a soothing balm which takes away all the diseases of this world of illusion. Guru Maharaj Ji is Lord Shiva personified, the pure and auspicious giver of pure and auspicious Joy. He wipes the dirt and dust from the mirror of the human mind. The nails on the toes of the Lotus Feet of Guru Maharaj Ji seen in meditation are like shining jewels. He who remembers them gets the most pure spiritual insight. Their light kills the darkness of worldly attachment. The luckiest man is he in whose heart this light is shining. This light will open the pure spiritual eye of the soul, and all impurities and pain will vanish. Then one can see the shining jewel of Lord Rama's divine character and play. All the hidden mines of spiritual wealth will be discovered. The dust of Shri Guru Maharaj Ji's Lotus Feet is a soft and beautiful balm which dispels all the defects of our eyesight. Without Guru no one will he able to cross the ocean of this world, even those who are equal in power to Lord Shiva and Brahma. Page 8 Without Guru Maharaj Ji, no one can receive Knowledge. You cannot have Knowledge without detachment. The scriptures all sing that without devotion to Guru Maharaj Ji, no one can enjoy peace and bliss. Will anyone ever rest without contentment and satisfaction? Without water a boat cannot move, however many times you try to make it. Without faith we cannot have devotion, and without devotion the Lord will not melt. Without the grace and mercy of the Lord, even in a dream, we cannot have peace. The shining Self within us lies, But we can never leave that night Of ignorance, and see the Light Until our True Lord gives us eyes. Remember at all times to carry the Lotus Feet of the Lord in your heart. Realize that God and Guru are one and the same! do not doubt this fact. God is pleased if Guru is pleased, and if Guru is unhappy, God will be also. I am simply telling you. Listen with an open heart, for just by speaking the glory of the Lord and hearing His praise, one can cross the ocean of this world. Once upon a time Lord Indra, the God of the gods, was sitting on his throne in his court. The whole house of heaven was there, together with King Kubera, Lord of wealth. Then Brihaspati, the Guru of the gods, came in, but Lord Indra did not rise to bow before Him as He entered. Brihaspati, when He saw the pride of Lord Indra, returned to His home with all the other guests. Then Indra repented, and asked himself, « Why did I behave so stupidly?' And he went to the ashram of Guru Brihaspati. But on account of this incident, Indra could not receive the darshan of the Perfect Master. Prahlad bowed his head before the Lotus Feet of the Lord and said, 'Glory, glory, glory to the Universal Guru. You have saved my life. You are the original, complete One, beyond any comparison. You are the shelter of all helpless people, O Lord; You are the Supreme Being, the whole Complete One. You have taken this form for the sake of Your devotee. Wherever a devotee of Yours gets into difficulty, You are there to help him. My mind overflows with Your praises.' Then Lord Narsingha said, 'Oh my devotee, listen to Me ». Never will I find a devotee like you, who has seen Me in My manifest and unmanifest form. Wherever my devotees suffer, there I manifest Myself to help and save them. Listen to my promise, Prahlad, I will never leave you. When I remember my devotees, I feel the same feeling that a cow feels as she licks her calf. Whosoever goes to meet a Guru, a doctor, an astrologer, his friends, the gods, or a King without any gift or offering will never be successful in his endeavour. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 04:26:39 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 9-12 Message: Page 9 You should understand that Guru is superior to God, for God places us in this hell, but Guru makes fear of this hell vanish. Guru is the Creator, Guru is the Preserver, and Guru is the destroyer of this universe. Shri Guru Maharaj Ji is the Supreme God who removes the suffering of the humble and the poor. He who comes to the shelter of Guru Maharaj Ji is freed from the round of sufferings. If even the most sinful of men comes to the Perfect Master, no pain nor suffering will reach him. He who believes in the Word of the True Master can never go to hell. ŒGu¹ means darkness. 'Ru' means light. Thus 'Guru' means He who dispels the darkness of our ignorance and reveals the inner light of God. Without the Guru, rites and rituals can never help us. Without the Guru we can never understand Divine Knowledge. He who has all the signs of a true Guru, His knowledge will bring fruit. If the Guru is capable, that is, if He fulfils the obligation of his title, make Him your Lord. Those wise people who understand this secret will perform perfect actions while remembering the name of God, knowing the end may come at any moment He who does not know the meaning of serving the Guru, who does not wash and worship His Holy Lotus Feet, will be unsuccessful in all his spiritual endeavours. Yoga, charity, chanting and bathing in the holy rivers are all useless without service to the Perfect Master. Without service to Guru Maharaj Ji, the mind is dark, and the light of Knowledge can never shine there. He alone who is free from attraction and repulsion can save the devotees. My Satguru is a fearless warrior. He strikes with the Word of God, and by throwing the bomb of love he destroys the castle of ignorance. When the Word of the Perfect Master takes effect, the king loses his pomp and power. He forgets wife, son, riches and all show of royalty, and enters the life divine. When the Word of the Perfect Master touches you, all worldly enjoyments become tasteless. All identification with finite things vanishes, and you become a true devotee, attached to the Lotus Feet of the Perfect Master. If God is angry you have nothing to fear, for Guru will save you. So respect your Satguru wholeheartedly, and He will help you in every way. Page 10 God¹s mercy may come or go, it makes little difference, but without the Grace of Satguru, we are completely lost. I can give` up the Lord, but never can l forget my Guru. I cannot see how God is equal to Guru, for the Lord gave us birth in this world, but Guru released us from the bondage of life and death. God gave us five senses. Like five thieves, they are always eager to rob us. But it was Guru who saved us from being their helpless victims, by controlling our senses. God cast a net of relatives over us, but Guru quickly cut the shackles of our attachments, and set us free. God gave us disease and desire, but Guru purified us, and released us from every kind of bondage. God deluded us with the chains of cause and effect, but Guru showed us the reality of the eternal Self, and we were freed. God hid Himself from us, but Guru revealed His Light, and enabled us to recognize God. God gave us the very ideas of captivity and freedom, but Guru dispelled all these delusions, and showed us the Truth. I am ready to sacrifice my body, mind and soul to my Guru. I will never leave my Guru, even if I have to leave God. How can I ever praise Him enough? We can never give Him anything in return for what He has given us. I am ashamed, because I will never be able to give my Guru anything, but He showed me the Lord, I saw Him for myself and was f reed from countless bondages. He gave me His shelter, by His holy glance alone He made me love Him. His mercy is so great that my tongue cannot sing His Glory. I am silent. How can I praise Him enough? All I can do is to rest my head on His Lotus Feet again and again. The glory of Guru is great. I will sacrifice anything for Him. Guru is the only giver. He bestows the gift of salvation. He frees us from wrong actions and gives us Knowledge of God. He gives us strong devotion, and makes us realize who are our real friends and foes. Then He takes us to His own abode. Guru and God are not separate. He who understands this, surely receives the real gift which makes all sufferings vanish. The theory of cause and effect holds true. Yet it is essential....... Pages 11-15 for us to have a Satguru. It is the law of God that all souls must return to God, that all souls will one day reach completion. The ways in which we spent our past lives, and whatever thoughts we have had, result in our life at present. Whatever we are doing or thinking now will result in our lives to come. This is the law of cause and effect, and it is quite correct. However, it does not imply that there is no use accepting help to uplift our soul. There is a hidden power in the soul which awakens when kindled by the power in another great soul. Most people are not able to help themselves without some outside help. This energy from outside acts upon the energy within us, and sparks the soul's elevation. It is at this stage that man begins to lead a spiritual life, and become pure and full. It is impossible to receive spiritual energy from books. The energy we are speaking of cannot be found in books. One soul can receive it only from another soul. There is no other way. We can spend our entire life in education, and become very intelligent, but in the end this will not help our spiritual progress. On the contrary, we may find that the more intellectual someone becomes, the less he evolves spiritually. Books may help us develop our brain, but they are unable to help our spiritual growth. This is a fact. We study the scriptures and other books, thinking that we are growing spiritually. But although we may become more intelligent we have not affected our spiritual development in the least. We may give long lectures on religion, but ourselves remain quite unable to be truly spiritual. This is because the energy we need cannot come from books. It is most important to receive this energy from a great soul, for it will awaken and develop the dormant soul within us. How can we recognize the Satguru? We do not need a lamp or a torch to find the sun. Everybody knows when the sun rises in the East, and in the same way the sincere soul will realize it has found the Perfect Master when He comes. Truth is self evident. It needs no other method to prove itself. The Light of Truth touches the innermost part of our nature and of all nature. The entire world comes to it and accepts its Truth. We can realise the Truth by following the advice of the Perfect Master with love and devotion, not by reading books. Pages 12 & 13 A disciple may climb the Himalayas or the Alps, he may roam the Sahara or the Gobi desert, he may dive into the deepest ocean. But without finding his Satguru, he will never know the secret of Truth. After he has found his Satguru, a disciple should serve Him as a son serves his father, opening his heart, and regarding Him as God personified. The Lord God has said, 'Know your Guru as Myself, the Lord.' We should understand that Guru is the most powerful manifestation of the Lord. If we understand this, our minds will automatically turn to our Guru before we start to do anything. After we have reached this stage, God's form alone remains wherever we look. God reveals many hidden miracles to those who seek for Truth with reverence and devotion. In the Bible we read, 'Take off your shoes, for you are standing on holy ground.' Wherever the Holy Name is remembered or the praises of the Perfect Master are sung, that place is holy. Imagine the purity of those who remember the Name of the Lord at all times, and of Him through whom we can realise spiritual Truth! How much devotion we should have before Him! This is how we should feel when we approach the Satguru to receive his knowledge. This world cannot survive without Him. The day this world is left without the Perfect Master, it will fall into Hell and be destroyed. The Perfect Master is the flower on the tree of life. This world is only functioning because He is with us. It is only the power and energy which is emanating from Him which keeps society from disintegrating completely. We cannot see God except in human form. No one has ever seen the Lord in any form except that of His Incarnation. We haven't seen God, and even if we try, we will not see Him. Why should we even speak about seeing Him, when we cannot even paint His picture without distortion. So long as we are in human form, we will be unable to see anything higher than the human form. The day will come when we will be able to rise above nature and see the real form of God, but as long as we remain human, we will have to worship Him in human form. Whatever you may say, no matter how much you may try, you will not see god except in human form. You may deliver long lectures, you may be a great debater, you may prove that all the stories in the scriptures are myths, but my brothers, please try and understand, all your learning is still quite useless. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 04:28:09 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 13-15 Message: Page 13 From now on, whenever you see someone who is speaking against the worship of God, stop and ask him 'How much do you know about God, beyond the fact the He is all powerful, that He is everywhere, and that His love is unlimited? You've heard people say these things, but do you understand them?' I find that people like this don't know anything, they don't know whether these words have any meaning or not. A fool who has never read a book in his life is better off than these people, for at least he isn't disturbing the peace of this world. But these people irritate and disturb others with their arguments. Direct experience is the true religion. We must differentiate between words and experience. Whatever your soul experiences is true. You should ask those who give lip-service to God who or what they think He is. Have they seen Him? Do they understand why He is called omnipresent? People have no idea about the soul. They can only imagine the unmanifest One in terms of whatever they see around them. So they imagine Him in terms of blue sky, open spaces, the ocean, or something like that. If we don't allow ourselves to think in these terms, how can we form any picture of God? We speak about a God who is everywhere, yet we think of the ocean! Is God the ocean, then? So throw away useless arguments. What we want is Knowledge of God, pure and simple. And that is the most difficult thing in this world to find. If a buffalo wants to worship God, it will see God as a larger and more powerful buffalo. In our present limited condition, we are bound to think of God in human form. We are all different forms of God. If many buckets are taken to the sea and filled with water, the water will still be the same in each of them. The same is true with God, for man sees God in his own form. We can only have a physical vision of God when we worship Him in this bodily form. There is no other way. There are two things in this life: the eternal soul and the temporal world. Guru is He who takes us from the temporal to the eternal, who introduces us to Truth, who shows us the Light of Truth, the perfect pure Light, and who thereby removes the darkness of our ignorance. Just as darkness disappears before the sun, so the presence of the Satguru dispels the darkness of ignorance. Then the sun of Knowledge rises. The Knowledge which Satguru gives is not like the sun which sets in the evening, bringing back the darkness. That Knowledge is never darkened. The soul is never lost again. Page 14 Guru Vairaswat said that the soul is not born, nor does it die. It is self-manifested and everlasting. Being a free entity, it knows neither birth nor death. Having no creator, no cause, it is birthless, eternal, indestructible and beginningless. Even when the body perishes, the soul does not. By remembering the Holy Name, we receive all that we need in this world, and can become fully realized. The conditions are as follows: first, the Guru must be super powerful, and second, the disciple must be the same. The Holy Name should be received from one who himself received it from his Perfect Master, and who is presently Perfect Master in a correct spiritual succession. From ancient times the Perfect Master has channelized His spiritual power to His disciples. Since the Name comes from the same spiritual tradition, it has become very powerful. He who teaches this Name is called the Guru, and he who receives it is called the disciple. If anyone receives this Name properly and practices it regularly, he will have nothing more to do by way of devotion. Just by meditating on that Name, he will reach the highest stages of devotion. All spiritual disciplines are included in the remembrance of the Name. Kabir says the devotees know that nothing is more powerful than remembering the Name. The Guru is like a farmer, and His disciple is the farm. The farmer prepares his land to perfection, manuring it and making it fertile. Then he sows his best seeds, hoping for a good harvest. When the Guru sows the seed of Holy Name in His disciple, He also hopes that His disciple will enjoy perfect peace and be saved. The Satguru never gives the seed in the hope that His disciple will not enjoy perfect peace. Just as a seed can only sprout after it has been buried, so the flower of Knowledge will not appear until the disciple erases his selfishness completely. You should erase yourself until there is no 'you' left. There should be no duality left at all. If the disciple is good, he will lose his ego in the same way that a sensitive plant draws back from the touch of man, and quickly realize the Knowledge. Just as a clean white cloth easily and quickly absorbs the color in a dye, so the disciple with a pure and guileless heart can easily and quickly absorb his Guru's Knowledge. The Master and His servant should both have the same thoughts and feelings. They should be one, for thus the disciple can please his Master. He should keep his mind attached to the Master and wish only to please Him. Page 15 A boatman ferries people across the water by means of his boat. In the same way the Guru carries His disciple to a shore of knowledge in the boat of Holy Name. Using the sail of his Guru's advice, the disciple crosses the river of this world, cutting across the waters of ignorance. Satguru is a jeweller who knows well the value of the Holy Name. In the same way that someone who is a jeweller for some time begins to recognize the value of jewels, so those who have been with Satguru for some time begin to recognize the value of the Holy Name. Once there was a disciple who was on his way to see his Satguru. He was carrying a garland of flowers, fruits and other offerings. On his way he passed a shop with a parrot in a cage in it, and he stopped and asked the parrot where the shopkeeper was. The parrot told him the shopkeeper was at home. As the man was leaving the shop, the parrot asked him where he was going, and the disciple told him he was going to see his Satguru. The parrot asked what trade Satgurus followed, and the disciple replied that the Master frees His disciples from the cycle of births and deaths. Then the parrot requested him to ask his Master how a parrot could be set free, and the disciple agreed to do this. When he arrived at his Guru's ashram, the disciple offered his gifts, and after taking permission, sat in the corner of the room. The Guru inquired after his well-being, and offered him some food. Then the devotee told the Master of the parrot's request. The Guru immediately stretched Himself out on His bed as though He was dying. The devotee was extremely worried, and began to weep. When the Guru at last revived, the disciple did not again mention the parrot's request. On his way home, the disciple again passed the shop where the parrot was kept, and the parrot asked him if he had received any answer. The disciple told him, 'My brother, the moment He heard your request, my Guru died.' The parrot understood the inner meaning of this answer, and immediately fell to the bottom of his cage as if dead. When the shopkeeper found him lying there, he took him and threw him away. At this point, the parrot came to, and flew away. This is how the Guru helps His disciple free himself from the cage of his own ignorance by giving him good advice. Satguru's net extends everywhere in the three worlds, and all over the face of the globe. If, even so, a soul does not catch it, what can Satguru do? There are many stars in the sky, but they do not manage to dispel the darkness of the night. In the same way we cannot remove the darkness of our ignorance without the help of Satguru, even though we try a million times. (To be continued) ....................... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 10:26:24 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 13-15 Message: Where can I get a copy of this? Is it available in bookstores? I would copy it from here but my printer did not work when I tried to print the 9 techniques. Maybe it's because I have an old computer - a 486 with memory upgrade (given to me) - and windows 3.1 but its probably because I do not know just how to go about it. Maybe I could save it to Write or Word. Well, if you have any advice please offer it to me. Thankyou. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 11:11:23 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: charles Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 13-15 Message: Charles tell me what you want and I will either copy it into an e-mail message and send it or copy it to Word and send it as an attachment. Come to think of it, I'm not sure if you could open the Word document. I have the Office 97 version of Word, but I'd be willing to try. Tell me what parts you want. Via e-mail, if you like. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 11:16:40 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Charles Subject: copies Message: I could also just copy it for you and snail-mail it to you and you'd have it in a day or two... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 11:41:43 (EST)
From: charles Email: dewinter@montrose.net To: Gerry Subject: copies Message: Thankyou! If you don't mind. My address is Charles deWinter P.O. Box 71, Telluride, CO 81435. I have been reading it since last night and want to be able to study it. I have copied it to an html file but do not know if I can get it into print. As a matter of fact I don't even know it I can get it on my screen except here. I tried that with the nine techniques to no avail. I am new at my computer and have a lot to learn. Thank you for your help. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 20:46:32 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Gerry Subject: copies Message: Speaking of copies, Gerry, is someone getting the LOTU video out to you? I think you had asked me for one, but the video I had didn't make usable copies. It was a copy of a copy. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 21:32:07 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: North West Coast LOTU Message: Hi VP and all - Here is how the video is supposed to go: JW is sending/has sent it to Joy, who will send it to Gerry, who will send it to Carol. I have checked this (I THINK) with everyone! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 27, 1998 at 21:46:10 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hello, Katie! Message: Katie, Hello! I have only read a few posts tonight. I am way behind. Everything is blue on the screen! I did manage to see this come up. Thanks for that answer. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 29, 1998 at 12:19:41 (EST)
From: JW Email: joger02@aol.com To: Katie Subject: North West Coast LOTU Message: Actually, I am having copies made and so Rick and Joy will get copies at the same time. I hope to pick them up and get them mailed tomorrow. Sorry for the delay, you Northwesterners! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 11:40:57 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: charles Subject: Charles Message: Dear Charles, You were on my mind this weekend while I caught up on some much needed R&R. I don't have a home computer but resisted the urge to come in to work and play. I really needed to relax! I thought of myself, on Friday as 'greeter' a job I held when I worked at a zoo along with birthday party person and receptionist. I felt like we made a connection, don't get me wrong but I knew you'd 'meet' the many wonderful people who post here and as I caught up in the archives and inactive list I see you did just that! I was so glad Katie got Bobby to communicate with you and you two really seemed to connect. I hate when I miss a few days as it takes some time to catch up and become current and as always I missed some excellent discussions. An aside: I am listening to Charlie Christian right now, have you ever heard of him, old, old stuff, excellent! Hope you stay here and work stuff out. You are not out of place here and you will develop real friendships, I hope, as I have who will help you along your way. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 11:59:00 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Robyn Subject: 10th technique ! Message: Here is the way to copy and save ANY text in a post: Open you word processor Select the text you want to save using your mouse Select 'copy' in your browser menu swith to your word processor select 'paste' and you have the text you wanna save in your document. BTW: you can do all this off-line, using the off-line reading possibility of your browser. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 11:59:33 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Charles Subject: Charles Message: Dear Charles, Forgot one thing. Your story was amazing and far from boring. You've found a bunch of people who can really relate to your experiences and have a few of their own they don't just tell everyone. Me too. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 12:04:40 (EST)
From: charles Email: dewinter@montrose.net To: Robyn Subject: Charles Message: Hi Robyn: I kept thinking of you going back to the college and unlocking the door to some big empty building and... I have spent the Memorial Day weekend right here. I was awaiting your return. Bobby meant so much to me. I hope he and I can talk in the future. Now I pray and burn incense. I think he will pull through. I have been reading and reading and posting. I read your journey (i think it was yours) along with Katie Baier, M. Appleman, others and the interview with Bob Mishler. I remember when he left DLM. I didn't hear much about it then because I was an active premie and disdainful of those who went awol. It was very helpful and enlightening. Compare that to the characteristics of Satguru described in the Hans Yog Prakash. It's food for thought and contemplation. I admit I do not have any real answers, only my questions. Not much salt in my mouth i hope. I like to do my best to come to things with an open mind. I'm sure Doc doesn't see me that way. Sometimes I get put off. I am glad you are back. No, I have never heard of Charlie Christian. Who is he? What does he do? I await your reply. Now I am off the the apartment next door to install carpet. I'll be back this afternoon or evening. Oh, by the way, I heard from a premie on my email. She told me about the program coming up in Denver. I might go. I don't know. She wouldn't respond to me here. If she (Ginny) had read some of my subsequent posts maybe she wouldn't have contacted me at all, but I will take that up with her. I just thought it might be interesting to know that about me being contacted and all. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 12:20:25 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: charles Subject: Charles Message: Dear Charles, Nice to know you still thought about writing to me even with all these wonderful and intellegent people you've been in contact with. I actually like to be in that building all by myself as long as it is light out or all the lights are on in the halls. I use to be afraid of the dark and find, since working at the college at night, alone that I still am, a bit. That was my journey, I am the only Robyn but Katie here on the forum is the other Katie in the journeys. Anon's journey entry is a good one too. I haven't read all of them as many are fairly new. Charlie Christian is 'The genious of the elictric guitar'. He is from the 30's or 40's, I just have a tape my daughter made me from her CD so I don't have all the info. Maybe someone will read this and know more about him. Having a daughter in college, graduated 1 year ago, had done wonders for my music collection! I have had people email me from 'seeing' me here. Recently I received a message from a girl who was adopted, looking for her lost birth mother, I wonder if anyone here also heard from her. I was of no help, being out of the loop before her mom was in, if I remember correctly. I hadn't noticed your email address or I may have written to you this morning. Oh, I just looked up top and there it is, I'll make a note. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 12:02:40 (EST)
From: JM Email: None To: charles Subject: Hans Yog Prakash 13-15 Message: Maybe you can still get it in India from Shri Satpalji Maharaj's ashram ..... as it was published by DLM in the 60s! and the DLM is still owned by Mr Satpal Rawat, in India anyway Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Tues, May 26, 1998 at 14:23:23 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: charles Subject: copying to Word,how I do it Message: I don't know much about computers, but I save things from here by selecting the passage (it turns dark when I click and hold the mouse button and scroll down the passage I want to keep) then pressing 'edit' and 'copy'. Then I bring up the Word program, press 'paste' and the passage appears on the blank page. Then I save it and name the file. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |