Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 8

From: May 15, 1998

To: May 23, 1998

Page: 3 Of: 5



Jean-Michel -:- Worried about paranoia -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:08:11 (EST)
__Jim -:- I guess we should quit -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:21:02 (EST)
____JM -:- What's Margies purpose ? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:44:25 (EST)
______JM -:- Covering her ass ! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:07:26 (EST)
__Katie -:- Worried about paranoia -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:07:11 (EST)
____JM -:- ridiculous -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:13:41 (EST)
______JW -:- Don't worry about it -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:21:31 (EST)
________Nigel -:- Don't worry about it -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:07:45 (EST)
__________JW -:- Don't worry about it -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:29:13 (EST)
____________Nigel -:- Don't worry about it -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:01:23 (EST)
______________JW -:- McLibel Suit -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:08:25 (EST)
________________nigel -:- McLibel Suit -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:26:06 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Rights/Liberties -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:53:40 (EST)
____________________nigel -:- Rights/Liberties -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:19:51 (EST)
______________________JW -:- Rights/Liberties -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:39:33 (EST)
________________Nigel -:- Left-wing gag -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:39:33 (EST)
__________Richard -:- Gathering evidence... -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 08:58:54 (EST)
____________Jude -:- Gathering service -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:33:16 (EST)
______________Jude -:- and another thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:46:16 (EST)
____________VP -:- Gathering evidence... -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:27:23 (EST)
______________Jim -:- THANKS VP!!!!!! -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:27:00 (EST)
________________VP -:- THANKS VP!!!!!! -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:11:38 (EST)
__________________Brian -:- THANKS VP!!!!!! -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:28:29 (EST)
____________________Katie -:- THANKS VP JIM & BRIAN -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:55:26 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- To CD - I'm kidding -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 01:32:21 (EST)
______________Richard -:- Gathering evidence... -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 05:50:49 (EST)
________________VP -:- Gathering evidence... -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:55:08 (EST)
__Lg -:- Worried about paranoia -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:08:59 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Six ducks-a-quacking -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:52:07 (EST)
__*>*...b -:- JIM -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:36:35 (EST)
____Brian -:- Hold off -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:36:44 (EST)
______Brian -:- Hold off off -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:02:32 (EST)
____Jim -:- Yes, Bill -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:14:31 (EST)
______VP -:- Yes, Bill -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:35:01 (EST)

Brian -:- Journeys, that is... -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 09:43:03 (EST)
__VP -:- Journeys, that is... -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 09:52:45 (EST)
__Jim -:- Okay, I'm fussy -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 11:54:30 (EST)
____Memphis Belle -:- I'm still here! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:07:38 (EST)
______Carol -:- I'm still here! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:33:44 (EST)
________Jean-Michel -:- do you realize -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:11:53 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Hey, you mean Katie! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:23:51 (EST)
__________Carol -:- do you realize -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:49:53 (EST)
________Memphis Belle -:- I'm still here! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:26:59 (EST)
________CD -:- I'm still here! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:27:01 (EST)
______Katie -:- I'm still here! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:37:48 (EST)
______Jim -:- Go, Belle, Go! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:41:44 (EST)
________Selena -:- Long Beach of love -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:52:41 (EST)
__Carol -:- Journeys, that is... -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:44:34 (EST)
__Katie -:- Journeys, that is... -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:51:23 (EST)
____Keith -:- Should I ? shouldn't I? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:11:44 (EST)
______VP -:- Should I ? shouldn't I? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:07:08 (EST)
__Lg -:- Journeys, that is... -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:59:55 (EST)

Paula -:- to JM -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:56:22 (EST)
__*>*...hey hey -:- paula -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:23:13 (EST)
____Paula -:- doctor's adress. -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 10:56:59 (EST)
______*>*....bill -:- doctor's adress. -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:12:13 (EST)
__JM -:- Thanks Paula! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:16:08 (EST)
____Paula -:- no thanks needed :) -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:08:45 (EST)
__CD -:- to JM -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:29:39 (EST)
____Paula -:- to JM -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:49:05 (EST)
______CD -:- to JM -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:41:29 (EST)
________Nigel -:- to JM -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:51:49 (EST)
____VP -:- getting the story straight -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:48:55 (EST)
______CD -:- getting the story straight -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 19:57:21 (EST)

Keith -:- Silence -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 21:52:35 (EST)
__Jim -:- Yes, please -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:39:21 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Please please me, oh yeah -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 00:15:55 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Silence -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 00:16:29 (EST)
__*>*.....Bill -:- song of life -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 00:27:05 (EST)
____GeRrY -:- song of life -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:16:41 (EST)
____GeRrY -:- song of life -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:42:24 (EST)
____carol -:- song of life -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:22:05 (EST)
__Guru Mariachi -:- Silence -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:15:26 (EST)
____Keith -:- Silence and noise -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:18:26 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- Silence and noise -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 11:17:47 (EST)
________Keith -:- Metaphysical conjecture. -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:09:02 (EST)
__________Scott T. -:- Metaphysical conjecture. -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:32:45 (EST)
____________Nigel -:- Metaphysical conjecture. -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:56:52 (EST)
______*>*...hi kieth -:- bobby are you around? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:26:36 (EST)
________Keith -:- bobby are you around? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:48:30 (EST)
__________*>*..b -:- bobby are you around? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 01:48:23 (EST)
______Jude -:- Sound and Fury -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:06:48 (EST)

Jim -:- I was thinking -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:50:13 (EST)
__d@vid -:- I was thinking -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:31:48 (EST)
____Katie -:- greeting to d@vid -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 00:44:52 (EST)
______d@vid -:- greeting to k@tie -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:19:12 (EST)
____frank -:- I was thinking -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:46:56 (EST)
______Selena -:- I was thinking -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:55:09 (EST)
______*>*.......Frank -:- ignored evidence -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:47:24 (EST)
________Selena -:- ignored evidence -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:23:20 (EST)
__________Selena -:- puzzlin' evidence -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:32:53 (EST)
____________*>*...b -:- puzzlin' evidence -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:02:39 (EST)
__Paul -:- I was thinking -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:40:20 (EST)
____Carol -:- 1 more group -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:58:58 (EST)
____JW -:- I was thinking -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:02:23 (EST)
______Paul -:- I was thinking -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:09:00 (EST)
________Katie -:- to Paul off topic -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:32:50 (EST)
__________Paul -:- to Paul off topic -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:48:53 (EST)
________JW -:- I was thinking -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 11:32:09 (EST)
__JW -:- I was thinking -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:52:45 (EST)
__Selena -:- I was thinking -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:55:21 (EST)
____VP -:- I was thinking -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 21:38:58 (EST)
______Selena -:- I was thinking -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:53:45 (EST)
________Katie -:- VP's story -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 00:36:24 (EST)
__________Pajama man -:- VP's story -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 09:48:02 (EST)
________Selena -:- I was thinking -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:40:15 (EST)
__________VP -:- Aspiring to push on the eyes -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 09:42:30 (EST)
________ex-aspirant -:- I was thinking -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 09:59:24 (EST)
__________Selena -:- I was thinking -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:52:21 (EST)
__Jude -:- I was thinking -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:24:14 (EST)

Richard -:- Starting again? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:05:59 (EST)
__Katie -:- Starting again? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:03:14 (EST)
__Jim -:- Richard, what if..? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:57:15 (EST)
____Keith -:- Information thing. -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:40:11 (EST)
__*>*....b -:- Starting again? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 22:42:56 (EST)
____Richard -:- Starting again? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 06:41:37 (EST)
______*>*...b -:- Starting again? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:29:16 (EST)

Gerry -:- Just the Facts, Ma'am -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 11:37:05 (EST)
__Jim -:- I like you Gerry -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 16:20:44 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Cracking the Cohen -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 16:57:54 (EST)
______Jim -:- Cracking the Cohen -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:12:04 (EST)
______Jim -:- Cracking the Cohen -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:40:14 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Reversed names -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:42:30 (EST)
____Robyn -:- I like you Gerry -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:27:18 (EST)
______Jim -:- The con game -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:36:46 (EST)
________Robyn -:- The con game -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:12:00 (EST)
____carol -:- I like you Gerry -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:18:35 (EST)
____Carol -:- Oops wrong reference -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:26:34 (EST)
______Jim -:- Oops is right -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:39:12 (EST)
__Gerry -:- Just the Facts, Ma'am -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:12:35 (EST)
____Jim -:- Just the Facts, Ma'am -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:25:54 (EST)
______Jim -:- Brian, I tried that time -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:29:57 (EST)
________da forum elves -:- Brian, I tried that time -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:36:01 (EST)
__________Jim -:- thanks -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:37:41 (EST)
______Gerry -:- Alas, paradise lost -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:17:42 (EST)
______Unpenetant premie wannabe -:- wimp snake in the grass -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:00:03 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Just the Facts, Ma'am -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:22:37 (EST)
__Keith -:- Just the Facts. -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:54:13 (EST)
____Jim -:- Relax, Keith -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:46:27 (EST)
______Keith -:- Relax, Keith -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:24:19 (EST)

Jude -:- Thanks -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:25:49 (EST)
__Jude -:- PS -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:42:47 (EST)
__Brian -:- Thanks -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:48:22 (EST)
____Jude -:- Thanks -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 09:01:29 (EST)
______Jude -:- Thanks -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 09:50:09 (EST)
________Selena -:- Thanks -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:08:21 (EST)
________carol -:- Therapy and bugs -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:01:38 (EST)
____Carol -:- Thanks -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:51:54 (EST)

Jude -:- To Katie -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:01:45 (EST)
__Katie -:- Grieving for M -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:12:15 (EST)
____Keith -:- Grieving for M -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:18:39 (EST)


Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:08:11 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Worried about paranoia
Message:
I’ve just received ‘my’ copy of m’s and EV’s schedule for 1998.

As somebody already mentioned, they now ‘copyright’ anything that’s on this document !

What is this ? What does it mean ?

1/ I don’t think you can copyright information, under any countries law.
Copyright is for someone’s creation, discourse, art, etc.
The can write it’s copyrighted, but they don’t own anything and can’t do anything about anybody printing whatever is written in here. Maybe the whole brochure can be copyrighted, thats fine.

It says that any part of this document cannot be reproduced !

Does this mean that we can’t use ‘Long Beach’, or Wembley, or Chicago anymore without asking for Visions permission ?

Or print anywhere that Mr Rawat is going to have a program in Denver on July 14 ?

That’s ridiculous.

2/ What does this mean ?

Here lies a much more serious issue I imagine.

Somebody, or some people feel threatened, and try to protect themselves from anybody getting any info on whatever they are doing in m’s world, outside the premies world.

That is a very serious symptom IMHO. I’ve never heard of anything like that before in EV. Of course they have always asked not to repeat what m says, what we are talking about in meetings, etc

Something is very wrong in this copyright business !

Fear and paranoia is spreading in the premies world, orchestrated by Visions and EV’s officials, it worries me a lot.

From what I’ve read in The Guru Papers, this is a symptom of serious problems in a cult.

Am I wrong ? Too much worried ?

What do you think ?

JM, worried about copyrights and totalitarism
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:21:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: I guess we should quit
Message:
JM,

Very clever of Margie to protect everything. Uncanny. Maybe he IS the Lord after all.

Copyright don't mean shit. You can copy whatever the hell you want for purposes of review, criticism, and ex-premie web sites. Just not too much and not for commercial gain.

Gotta go.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:44:25 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What's Margies purpose ?
Message:
Just deter anybody wanting to create his own information system ?

EV trying to have more control over the 'premies' world ?

I don't get it ...

That's not serious. I'm sure they've made a big fuss
about this in EV's meetings !

What is going to be the premies reaction when they see it's BS ?

After all, I've already seen so many stupid things in this organization, that's what helped me to think a bit deeper about it I guess.

The result will very likely be the contrary of what they expect!

More premies will question this,

but also more premies also will feel threatened I guess...
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:07:26 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: Covering her ass !
Message:
At least she'll be able to say: 'I've done what I could' if
the BM is mad at her

and that might deter some guys like Mili ....

anything else ?

Laughable, if it wasn't a sad story ...
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:07:11 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Worried about paranoia
Message:
Hi JM -
I got the same brochure (courtesy of VP, who kindly sent it to me). I thought the copyright thing was kind of strange. Who would want to 'steal' and reprint a list of M's intinerary? And why would they want to keep it secret? Especially when it's being mailed out to thousands of people.

The only thing I could figure is that they didn't want anyone to scan the entire brochure and put it on this web site. Why, I do not know, since this is the only place that premies can find information about M on the web.

There were a few quotes by M on the brochure too, but nothing I'd worry about being disseminated if I were him (e.g. 'Enjoy life.'). I don't get it either, personally.

P.S. to Brian - I just sent you the whole thing.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:13:41 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: ridiculous
Message:
Now what they also do is
they loose a lot of credibility for premies. Many of them
understand how ridiculous that is, they won't say a thing,

I still don't get it.

Beside I keep forgetting that under such a thinking reform,
their logic is not 'of this world' !

Like all these endless arguments with some premies that proves only one thing: your mind gets completely fucked when you're in
m's world !

Does it need more proof ?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:21:31 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: Don't worry about it
Message:
JM, it's no big deal. In the US people copyright practically everything if it has any commercial value whatsoever. This might seem strange in other countries, but that's the way things are done here.

But, as Jim said, 'it doesn't mean shit' unless somebody tried to steal M's 'style' and tried to start a charlatan 'master' business of their own, by stealing M's pathetic materials and inane quotes.

The US copyright law is very clear. If you reprint anything for the purpose of criticism (and hey, that's what we're doing here, right), or for educational purposes (and I think we do that too), then it is perfectly legal to reprint anything you want to, whether the writing is copyrighted or not. It is nothing to worry about. You could scan the whole thing on the internet and it would be perfectly legal.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:07:45 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: JW
Subject: Don't worry about it
Message:
Hi Joe. The 'criticism' and 'educational' arguments are valid in the UK too, but with the proviso that during the course of such activities you don't reproduce more than 10% of the original work. (This message was pasted onto all my college's photocopiers - which is why I know). But in the real world I don't think anybody takes the blindest bit of notice.

The onus is always on the 'wronged' party to (a), become aware of the infringement (b), gather evidence, and (c), take it to court.
I'm not sure that they ever do, unless somebody is actually trying to sell the original work - or a plagiarised version - under a different cover.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:29:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Don't worry about it
Message:
Thanks, Nigel,

As we all know, the UK is less enamored with the sanctity of free speech than the states, whether that's good or bad is subject to some dispute. [Recall the case against those vegetarians by McDonalds in the UK for disparaging their tasteless burgers. That would have been thrown out in 10 minutes in the states, although some states have passed some pretty stupid disparagment laws, like that one under which Oprah Winfrey was prosecuted and she won.]

There isn't any 10% limitation under the US copyright law.

And you're right. The charging party would also have to show actual damages, and I can't figure out how Visions/EV or BM could ever do that, even if they had a cause of action.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:01:23 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Don't worry about it
Message:
I loved the 'MacLibel' case between London Greenpeace and MacDonalds because the full might of this international junk food company couldn't quash the resolve of these two humble and impoverished nonentitities who'd been spreading malicious rumours about the nutritrional quality of the double cheeseburger, the 'happy meal' and the rest of it. The Greenpeace people couldn't afford representation, so did it all the legal stuff themselves - and the case went on for years.

MacDonalds won the case, but lost the battle for hearts and minds, and the damages awarded were derisory.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:08:25 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: McLibel Suit
Message:
My local lefty radio station, KPFA in Berkeley, followed that suit religiously. They had regular telephone interviews with the indigent Greenpeace people defending against McDonalds. They became quite the heroes.

As you probably know, some Texas cattlemen brought claim against Oprah Winfrey under a Texas law that fobade slandering meat. I kid you not. Even in Amarillo, Texas, the jury said the comments were protected by free speech liberties. A few other states with strong agri-business lobbies have passed such laws after the ALAR scare in Washington state hurt the apple-growers for a time. Doubt they will ever get enforced.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:26:06 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: McLibel Suit
Message:
As I recall, the worst thing Oprah actually said was : 'Personally, I will never eat a burger again in my life...'

I imagine Texan cattle ranchers must be pretty sensitive underneath those red necks.

I find it strange how far ahead of us the US is in some ways, such as with free speech, employment laws regarding sexism, ageism or a minimum wage, no hereditary (or unelected) powers, and far greater localisation of government - yet you seem to behind us in other matters like capital punishment or the possession of handguns.

Maybe one day we'll catch up with each other.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:53:40 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Rights/Liberties
Message:
I find it strange how far ahead of us the US is in some ways, such as with free speech, employment laws regarding sexism, ageism or a minimum wage, no hereditary (or unelected) powers, and far greater localisation of government - yet you seem to behind us in other matters like capital punishment or the possession of handguns.

I think the US free speech protection just came from some very good drafting of the bill of rights, and some good interpretation by the Supreme Court over the years. I think if asked for a vote on free speech issues, the voters would actually want LESS free speech. I think to the complacent majority, free speech is really rather a nuisance.

The sex discrimination laws in employment came out of the womens' movement in the 60s and 70s. I think they have been interpreted in ways that go too far and in ways in which they were never intended. Like Paula Jones being able to bring that suit against the President. It was finally thrown out, but that kind of suit was never anticipated under Title VII.

Age discrimination is another story. A recent California decision said that it was okay for an employer to fire older workers and hire younger ones, if the employer was doing it only for economic reasons -- because the younger workers would work for less. (HELLO????) This is a result of 16 years of California governors appointing anti-labor, pro-busines justices to the California Supreme Court. This will be appealled and probably overturned by the Federal Supremes; at least I hope so.

Yes, capital punishment and the worship and prevelence of guns are big black marks on this country in my opinion. But I think the sentiment on capital punishment is starting to change, as states are executing people in large numbers. I think more people realize that it isn't fairly applied, it's too expensive, doesn't deter crime, and is barbaric for the state to kill people.

And on guns, the sentiment clearly has changed, but there are still too many congressmen, mostly in rural in disctricts, where the NRA can get them defeated. Until that changes, there won't be much limitation on firearms, I am afraid.

I used to be a critic of local government. I always thought local powers preserved racism, poverty, and a race to the bottom in the safety net. I still think that's partly true, but I'm also seeing more that a local government can really be responsive to the local population and allow for more participation. It also can be much more flexible and serve as a kind of labratory for innovative programs. That's the way I feel where I live, anyway. I'm really postive about the local political situation.

And we don't have hereditary powers, but it seems that elected office, at least state-wide or national office, is pretty much left to the rich these days. Our senate is therefore filled with millionaires. Not exactly representative of the way ordinary people live. Money runs things here. It's really rather sad, and everyone knows it should be changed, but those who got in power through the current system aren't likely to change it. This is probably the most important change that needs to happen in our election process. That, and something besides our current 'winner-take-all' elections, in my opinion. We need some kind of proportional representation like Britain has. Otherwise people feel like they have no representation and voter turn-out continues to drop.

Isn't there a minimum wage in Britain?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:19:51 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Rights/Liberties
Message:
Thanks for all that Joe, it really clarified a few things for me.

Regarding a minimum wage: Tony Blair promised one, but it hasn't happened yet. There is much rumour that New Labour is going to fix a minimum age for its imposition, which - a bit like the ageism example you gave - will lead to employers firing older employees and taking on teenagers instead.

Re. proportional representation: UK general elections are still 'first past the post'. The only party actively pushing for change in this respect are the Liberal Democrats (who as the least fairly represented party have most to gain, need I add). They seem to have some kind of deal going on with Labour where instead of automatically crititicising the government, they co-operate on all policies with which they agree (which is, of course, what they should be doing anyway - but politics doesn't work like that). In return, Labour seems to be actively considering various electoral reforms. The House of Lords is, however (IMHO), the most glaring anomoly that needs sorting out, or abolishing - and the one that is least likely to get sorted, since the electorate either love tradition too much, or otherwise don't much care either way.
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:39:33 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: nigel
Subject: Rights/Liberties
Message:
That's right. Britain doesn't really have proportional elections either. You just don't get the situation where the executive and the legislature are of different parties, like we have currently.

I guess I was thinking more of Germany and Israel that allow seats in the legislature is a party gets above a certain percentage of the vote, say 5% I think in Israel it's 1% which is probably too low and lets in some very fringe groups.

Regarding the minimum wage, the republicans for years have tried to introduce a 'sub-minimum wage' for people under 18 or 19. Democrats have always opposed this. Rather than a 'sub-minimum wage,' it should more appropriately be called 'The McDonalds and Burger King Relief Act' or maybe 'The Youth Slavery Act.'
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:39:33 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Left-wing gag
Message:
Marx: Would you like a cup of tea, comrade?
Engels: Is it proper tea?
Marx: Of course!
Engels: No thanks.
Marx: Why not?
Engels: I thought you said 'all proper tea is theft'.
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 08:58:54 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Gathering evidence...
Message:
I don't know about the 'taking it to court' bit but, historically, the Mish has been big on gathering evidence of anything that premies or ex-premies do or did.

While active in the WPC I can recall that we had;

a huge newspaper-cuttings library supplied by professional agencies,

a mug-shot library of trouble-making premies (most shots taken at programs),

several on-going investigations into premie/ex-premie activities

and a security machine so sophisticated and active that it came to the attention of Special Branch and the FBI.

These activities were closely monitored by Raja Ji who told me that Maharaji was very pleased with our 'work'. Have things really changed so much?

Richard
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:33:16 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Gathering service
Message:
...gathering evidence of anything that premies or ex-premies do or did.
This reminds me of other stuff

I just have to start saying all these little things that I keep remembering (trivial though they be)

In our knowledge selection interview, we were each asking for knowledge and two (discrete) premies taking notes. I eventually did this service and it was unclear whether you were meant to write down just the praise, or the questions (no-one had any because we had all been primed that you only got it if you had no questions), or the reasons why they wanted knowledge - anyway I can tell you that from that source the only 'comments' M would have received feed-back on was very aggrandisizing (sp?) eg: lots of gratitude.
(what else would you say when you are asking for the BIG gift - your own soul's awakening?)

Anyway this one guy said 'Oh, and I'll come to the airport and pick him up in my gold mercedes'. the isntructor took this very seriously, and imperiously urged the note-takers 'take this down, take it down!'
Only she didn't realise this poor guy had a kind of emotional/mental problem and had a gold mercedes only in his dreams...
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:46:16 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: and another thing
Message:
this detail slipped into my mind while I was absorbing posts from today...I don't know how important others think it is

During a video when M talked about Marilyn getting sick, he talked about it quite a bit, saying how knowledge had helped him. first of all there was a bit of grandiosity, for example how well he organised her transfer to a better hospital, all the while flying in the plane - that he was a brilliant organiser kind of thing - but then when it came down to the surgeon, her life was in ONE person' hands and he had to be humble, no matter how much power he had he was powerless (I am just describing my impression of what he said, please bear with me and don't take it absolutely literally!)

Then he said how in all the chaos he had this safe place to go, inside, this safe harbour, and how he appreciated it. It is funny hearing him talk about something he is supposed to be the master of, giving him refuge (I mean he still has to 'go inside' and escape the troubles? It hasn't given him a grander perspective on life/death than that?)

But the important bit is I remember this, he said that every day it was touch and go for a while and he was going home to his kids, and they would say, when's mummy coming home? and he would say, soon (maybe tomorrow?)

Now this struck me at the time. I mean his kids are not babies, are they? Yet he was lying to them. I felt at the time of hearing this that it was quite significant, that he treated his kids in this way. What if she had died? He had not prepared them - he had been dishonest in fact. This is from his own words in the video. I could be wrong I suppose. But do others find that a significant indication of a mind-set or belief system?
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:27:23 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Gathering evidence...
Message:
Richard,
How many guns DID you guys have? (Just kidding!)

On a more serious note, did you guys ever DO anything about the malcontents? The mere fact that Jim is still alive leads me to believe that this is a show. A scare tactic, if you will. To keep control over the followers. 'Don't step out of line, or else!' Rumors about these activities leak out and they scare the premies into submission. Along the lines of 'big brother'. Maybe I am wrong.

Does anyone know if there is still a WPC or a similar security agency? VP
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:27:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: THANKS VP!!!!!!
Message:
Hey, what am I? The resident canary-in-a-coalmine?

Holy pooh! JW's a lot more dangerous than me and Brian actually runs this thing. Why even Katie, go get Katie, she doesn't have any family. I'm helping raise my girlfriend's kids, for god's sake. Please, VP, please re-direct something here.

Gulp!
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:11:38 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: THANKS VP!!!!!!
Message:
Couldn't resist a little fun after that embezzlement story you pulled over on me. (My fault really. My first instinct was that you were full of shit. Little lapse of confidence in my mind.) Okay, we will send CD and the other resident members of the new WPC to Katie's for photographs instead. (this is a joke, CD)

VP
The one that got away (you should have seen the size of it, too)
1998
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:28:29 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: VP
Subject: THANKS VP!!!!!!
Message:
Okay, we will send CD and the other resident members of the new WPC to Katie's for photographs instead.

Yes! Katie's! Very good idea... she lives over that way ----->
The house with the baragons on the treelawn.

(Phew! THAT was a close one.)
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:55:26 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: THANKS VP JIM & BRIAN
Message:
Dear WPC -
Do me a favor, if you HAVE to send someone, send CD. I need some help moving some heavy pieces of furniture, and I have a few problems with my software that I'd like him to fix. Then, there's a microbrewery in town that I know he'd like (sorry, no link, CD), with lots of single-malt scotches and fancy bourbon. The beer is OK too.

Thanks,
Katie

P.S. My daddy always told me to keep a shotgun by the door.
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 01:32:21 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: To CD - I'm kidding
Message:
Hi CD - The above thread is a joke, although if you happen to stop by my house, I could use some help, and I will buy you a drink at our (very) local microbrewery.

Katie

I worked with WPC at Millenium '73.
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 05:50:49 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Gathering evidence...
Message:
Dear VP,

Certainly a few people got serious bruises but most were simply scared shitless by the extra heavy attention. I do seem to remember that a certain journalist wished that he had not bothered to try and dig up dirt on Maharaji at Ally Pally.

Most activity was confined to surveillance, the results of which were used to 'exclude' certain persons from various locations and events. e.g. the intelligence (descriptions, names, photographs) would be passed to 'rovers' (mobile security units) who would intercept 'targets' at train stations or outside venues. Said targets would then be re-directed to another location or 'occupied' for the duration. No kidding.

Another major activity was 'plants' or undercover premies. Most ashrams, high-profile premie houses and strong communities had at least one who would write weekly reports on premie gossip/activities.

Sad but true.
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:55:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Gathering evidence...
Message:
Richard,
That is a lot different than what I have been told by premies. Thanks for the information.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:08:59 (EST)
From: Lg
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Worried about paranoia
Message:
Jean-Michel

I work in a major library and we don't take the copyright seriously here. We photocopy whatever article we want or the public wants from any magazine.

It would be different if you were to publish part of the publication.

Don't worry
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:52:07 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Six ducks-a-quacking
Message:
Relax, JM!

I have an illustrated reading and numeracy book for young children that deals with each number from 1 to 10, a page at a time, most of the space being given up to helpful illustrations: 'One Ball', 'Two Teddies', 'Three Fluffy Kittens' etc. There is never more than two words on any page, yet the very strict copyright notice at the back of the book informs me I may not use a single paragraph (eg., 'six ducks') for any purpose whatsoever without the the express consent of the author.

There - I will say it again - 'six ducks'. So sue me...

best wishes,
Nigel
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:36:35 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: JIM
Message:
Funny, I noticed the same thing when I read that mailing.
Also, he is in 90 countries apparently and not 50

Oh brother.

It is an attempt to keep us from posting how insidious the
brochure is. And how glareingly the quotes are used to
to present rawat as lord.
And how all the videos are exerpted with just the propaganda
of eastern thought and humanitarian missionary godhead
slant.

The brochure---Jim, can I post some parts of that brochure?
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:36:44 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: *>*...b
Subject: Hold off
Message:
I've got to check on a couple of things.
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:02:32 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Brian
Subject: Hold off off
Message:
Okay, I don't have any problem with it.

Thanks for asking me though, Bill. If you were any less help to me here I would swear that you worked for EV.
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:14:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: *>*...b
Subject: Yes, Bill
Message:
Actually, I know for a fact that people have complained to various EV dignataries about the Instructor Manual being posted. That is, after all, a MUCH more significant publication of copywritten material. I also know for a fact that EV isn't prepared to do anything about it except, of course, invite anyone who would like to have a knowledge review.
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:35:01 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: bb
Subject: Yes, Bill
Message:
*<*b,
I already posted some of the quotes on the brochure for Joy. (Sorry, Brian) When I did so I was operating under interpretations of copyright law that JW and Jim have already discussed in this thread. Purposes of criticism.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 09:43:03 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Journeys, that is...
Message:
If you're like me (and let's face it - those of you who think you're not are in major denial), well then you probably get tired of singing the theme song to The Beverly Hillbillies in the shower.

Oh, I know - the tune is wonderfully heart-warming and all, but sometimes you just wish you could find other words to bounce off the tiles.

Well, now you can. The latest Journeys entry is online, and is welcome relief from having to dwell on Jed all day - I'll tell ya...

Click Here For Relief

Thanks R. T.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 09:52:45 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Journeys, that is...
Message:
Great stuff! Hilarious. Now who says this website isn't making a difference? I think Participant alluded to this before. Take THAT, Participant! HA!
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 11:54:30 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Okay, I'm fussy
Message:
But after 24 years, It's clear this Guru's boat -

is circling his Residence. That 'Ocean'... is a Moat!


But that couplet, at least, was worth the price of admission.

Thanks and welcome, R.T.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:07:38 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: I'm still here!
Message:
Hi, everyone! I'm still reading the site every now and then.

As you all know, I am on the verge of stopping to LISTEN to M.

I will be flying to see him next week in Long Beach, and I will be judging everything at the program.

I am getting tired of fighting all my thoughts about the whole matter (K) and would like to take a vacation for a while.

I would like to be who I was before I met Maharaji.

I am inviting any Ex's to tell me why I should stop seeing M.

I would also be interested in any premie telling why I should keep staying in touch with M.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:33:44 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: I'm still here!
Message:
I am also debating whether I should go to judge the effect myself to a program coming up in Seattle in mid-June. There is some sort of pre-registration required and I have not committed to call and find out about it, or to go. My oldest son (29)wants to go and is feeling kind of skeptical, too. I've been influencing him away from believing in M now, because that's how I feel now,and I was an influence toward him when he received K, so I feel responsible to help reverse the direction.
Carol
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:11:53 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: do you realize
Message:
that all the info you just gave about m's programs is
copyrighted, according to Visions, and what I just
read in their official schedule ?

Do you want to send Jim and Brian to jail ?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:23:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Hey, you mean Katie!
Message:
JM,

I only work here. All profits go straight into Brian and Katie's pockets. But I thought Katie was already going to jail for something anyway. You are, aren't you Katie? So, like I say, as if she cares. 'Come and get me' is what I can say on her behalf.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:49:53 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: do you realize
Message:
I know Jim already corrected you, but...what info about programs? I didn't see it. Carol
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:26:59 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I'm still here!
Message:
Carol,

I would encourage you to go and be judgemental about the program.
Go and listen with your heart.
Do not let the numbers of people attending, make you feel it is o.k. to listen to M.
Do not let the music make it O.K.
Do not let the beautiful stage, or lights, or anything else make it O.K. and nice and comfortable.
Do not make it o.k. because everyone else is nice and happy.
Do not be swept away with a video.
Take everything away!

I plan to close my eyes for most of the time.
I plan to listen to the words, and see if what M says really does
touch my heart.

I don't know why you have come to the same sort of situation that I am finding myself in, but for some reason we are both in the same boat.

It must be because our hearts are telling us that there is something wrong.

I truly believe that it is my heart that is leading me away from M. and it is simply because I know and have heard about too many bad things about M.

I don't want to miss out on GOD by spending too much ti
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:27:01 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I'm still here!
Message:
>There is some sort of pre-registration required and I have not committed to call and find out about it, or to go.

Its about seating to avoid having people wait in line before the program. They can also judge how many seats to set up.
At recent events I was given a seat number and thats about it.
I ended up sitting in a better seat that was empty in the back.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:37:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: I'm still here!
Message:
Hi Memphis Belle!
You said
I am inviting any Ex's to tell me why I should stop seeing M.

Here is my answer. I don't want to tell anyone to stop seeing M if they feel good about their involvement with him. However, I have seen many people who kept on going following Maharaji when they really did not want to, because they felt that they 'should', or that something bad was going to happen to them if they didn't, and so forth. Some of these people became very unhappy, but still felt that they couldn't stop following M. Therefore my answer to you is 'It's OK to stop seeing Maharaji, if that is what YOU want!'

You also said: I would like to be who I was before I met Maharaji. I wonder why you are going to Long Beach if you feel this way. It sounds like you are not enjoying your experience with Maharaji that much. Maybe I am not understanding where you're coming from, but to me, that statement indicates that you are NOT happy following Maharaji.

Best wishes to you, Belle.
I will be really interested to hear what you think about Long Beach, if you care to share it.

Regards from
Katie
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:41:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: Go, Belle, Go!
Message:
Hm, I feel like I'm at the racetrack.

Belle, Some will say otherwise and they may be right. They'll say that Maharaji's siren song is still too sweet for you and you run the risk of jumping into his moat of love again (thanks, R.T., for the perfect metaphor). I don't agree.

I think that once the process of critical thinking has started up again it's going to take on a life of its own. This time, when you see Maharaji, if, as you say, you'll be judging things all over, you'll see through this trip like never before. Hell, if you feel like it, why not pop up and ask a few questions? That should be entertaining.

I'll look forward to hearing your detailed review if you do go. If you get around to asking Maharaji any questions, why not ask him one simple one: does he support the premies, like Annie, who think it's a good thing to face the doubt and criticism on this page? You might also ask him if he's going to be speaking at his brother, Guru Maharaj Ji's, show in New Jersey?

Best of luck.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:52:41 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Long Beach of love
Message:
I can't wait to hear your review MB. I envy you. It would be a a riot to go with this new outlook I have, and observe. The writing material that I could acquire! oooooo..!!
I want to go too, but alas, I have a conference to attend out of town and in a different direction. At least I won't feel guilty about choosing work over the bigM this time... enjoy yourself and please give me a report. The funnier the better, if that's how it is for you. If it's serious or distubing or profoundly enlightening, well, that's fine too. You will be entertained I'm sure. Good to hear from you again. I remember I really loved your interpretation of the bigM dance routine.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:44:34 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Journeys, that is...
Message:
Great job J.T. I haven't written mine yet, it probably won't be so creative! Been here posting only since April 29. A premie from 1972 to sometime earlier this year. Carol
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:51:23 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Journeys, that is...
Message:
Hey, RT -
A short message to let you know that your journeys entry was great. I am like Brian - I can still remember all the words to that stupid Beverly Hillbillies song - thanks for providing some better ones.

Thanks,
Katie
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:11:44 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: Should I ? shouldn't I?
Message:
M.B,
I feel you should go .
It will test your feelings and thoughts.
Sounds like a good idea to really focus on M's words.
Remember there may be a lot of nonsense surrounding the 'message'....but the same can be said about this site too.
So...judge the message!
But if it were me I would also spend some time looking around me with wide open eyes and ears.
Why? Because what I see and hear also helps to inform me .....and I would want as big a picture as possible. Anyway good luck and like with others I will be very interested in your after-program account.
Oh, I too feel to attend programs in the future with a renewed consciousness .
Keith
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:07:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Keith/ M. Belle
Subject: Should I ? shouldn't I?
Message:
'Remember there may be a lot of nonsense surrounding the 'message'....but the same can be said about this site too.'

What nonsense are you talking about during programs, Keith? The only nonsense on this site is a little fooling around by some pranksters here- myself included. I don't believe that it deters from the message, if the message is about being yourself, thinking for yourself. Where does it say we can't indulge in a bit of nonsense?

'A bit of nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men.'-Anonymous

There is no insiduous music on this site, no beautiful imagery to help create some kind of illusion, no toe-kissing. This site is not a show. All that exists here are our thoughts, our feelings-words on a blank page. The messages here are all different. Everyone has their own opinions and each man (woman) is his (her) own person. Thinking for yourself is reality, friend!
Sincerely, VP
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:59:55 (EST)
From: Lg
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Journeys, that is...
Message:
Brian

My compliment to the author. Good show.

...If only I had to pay 3 grand... The ashram debtd was 20 when it closed!
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:56:22 (EST)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: to JM
Message:
Hi everyone, it has been some days I don't get in touch with this forum, I have been too busy, but now I can find some time to do things I like....as being on the forum. Some days ago, JM wrote me a message asking me about M in South America, and I could not reply it ( I am sorry to be so late). (and Robyn, wait for my post tomorrow! it is a long letter!)

Dear JM:

Since I got in touch with M for the first time in 1990, I don't know everything that happened before. In 1990, I asked a premie why M don't come to Brasil as he does with other countries and he answered me that it was because the last time M came here (he did not say the year) the organization was a mess... so he (M) would come when he feels that things are more organized. Other premie I know became an ex-premie after this 'last time' in the 80's because M was too demanding. I mean... The story is: M was in an appartment and people were serving him day and night. This man was on service during the night and he had to be awake after all day long working ( he is a doctor). And M asked him some beer... at 1AM in the night. He said 'ok' and brought some beer to M. Then... M refused the beer, because it was not the one he likes. He wanted another label of beer. So... this guy got pissed off and never returned again to M videos/programs. Some premies concluded: 'M was testing the doctor's ego and was kidding with him. hahahah'(they always laugh, it is so stupid). But.... the guy just realized that his Master did not have any respect with him and decided to get out of it. I heard that he was not the only one that got stressed with M behavior, but I don't know the other stories about it. (I wish I knew!)

M came back to Brasil in 1991 or 1992... as far as I remember... and it was a short program (one afternoon talking to premies and aspirants together). Before he comes... many instructors came here, and also... a lawyer too, to check how Elan Vital was being organized here.

In 1991 or 1992 also... he went to Las Tierras in Argentina and gave a very long program (4 days or something like that). I asked premies about 'how was it?' and they told me 'it was beautiful as ever'...I don't think that there were any kind of problems. They said everything was peaceful and there was nothing wrong about the organization.

In 1993 M came here again and this time... he practiced K with all premies together (it was not previously planned), and premies got happy for more than 6 months, remembering it....

But...one curious thing (after all this boring information) is when he came here in 1995... he decided to make the program on a quiet and touristic city ..... he planned to give K sessions (after almost 10 years without giving a K session here) and........and...... he did not came here!!! hahahahah..... it was very funny...... and the planned K sessions to aspirants were given by an instructor! and you know what? Premies told me 'it was wonderful as ever... hahahah'......

I concluded that premies always think that everything is fine and good. For them, everything that M does.... is wonderful, even when he does not respect people....

that is it. I know I did not help much, but I tried to answer what you asked me.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:23:13 (EST)
From: *>*...hey hey
Email: None
To: Paula
Subject: paula
Message:
That doctor was probabaly Bickich.
Or some spelling like that. He had his whole family come to
knowledge and two sons went to miami and at least one died
of aids. I traveled with that one for a few months, he was about
as handsome as a human can be. luckily for me I kept refusing his
offers for sex. This doctor went bancrupt because he kept
signing loans for premies and the premies eventually
broke him. It must have been brutal to realize up front
and close that rawat was not only not the lord or perfect
master, but that he was a low life who didnt care about him.
Can you find out his address?

It is amazing how much mileage he has gotten off the
i am god schtick.
He has abused people the whole way and the only way to
help many people is to have guys like mark tell all the
stories they saw and/or heard about rawat behaving
badly towards others. It is crucial info for showing
his full story.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 10:56:59 (EST)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: *>*...hey hey
Subject: doctor's adress.
Message:
well.... the doctor is not the one you mention. His surname is Collier, and as far as I know, he hates Miami and USA and he does not have a son who died of AIDS. Nothing like that. Also, he was not handsome or gay, and he does not loan money for premies.

Everything messed... This one you are talking about, I have never met.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:12:13 (EST)
From: *>*....bill
Email: None
To: Paula
Subject: doctor's adress.
Message:
He is in argentina. His son was the handsome one. I never met the
doctor. He didnt comt to the states in the eighties.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:16:08 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: Paula
Subject: Thanks Paula!
Message:
Fascinating stories.

But in case you can get some more, I'm sure there is a big stuff
hidden behind this: I'm absolutely sure of what I told you, it's been reported by various persons, and m himself mentioned it in organizers meetings.
The facts are burried somewhere.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:08:45 (EST)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: no thanks needed :)
Message:
For sure the facts are buried, and I believe you. One thing very curious about premies and EV is that they always protect M against any kind of critic. You point a fact... and they say it is sompletely different than the fact. I makes me angry....
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:29:39 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Paula
Subject: to JM
Message:
>But...one curious thing (after all this boring information) is when he came here in 1995... he decided to make the program on a quiet and touristic city ..... he planned to give K sessions (after almost 10 years without giving a K session here) and........and...... he did not came here!!! hahahahah..... it was very funny...... and the planned K sessions to aspirants were given by an instructor! and you know what? Premies told me 'it was wonderful as ever... hahahah'......

He had to cancel a tour at one point when his wife became seriously ill. That may have been the time.

CD
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:49:05 (EST)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: to JM
Message:
Well.... so there is 2 different stories....

because EV people told that he was stressed......
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:41:29 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Paula
Subject: to JM
Message:
He was stressed when his wife almost died.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:51:49 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: to JM
Message:
He was stressed when his wife almost died

And was powerless to do anything about it...

Don't wan't to sound heartless here, CD, but the official line used to be that M had come with '64 yogic powers', and (in his own words) was 'gonna make the Ramayana look like Noddy' (ie., kid's stuff). The weird little everyday incoveniences that used to screw up my experience of knowledge were all his 'lila', etc., etc. Just surrender, give a little more, make that effort...

What would it take to make you concede that M has no powers - beyond, perhaps, the power to hold the gullible within his sway.
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:48:55 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: CD/Paula
Subject: getting the story straight
Message:
'He had to cancel a tour at one point when his wife became seriously ill. That may have been the time.'

Are you certain that the dates of Marolyn's hospital stay correspond to the dates of the missed knowledge session? I know that CD hates it when misinformation takes place on this forum. I think you guys should figure it out so that it doesn't happen once again. Not trying to start a flame war. Just for the sake of accuracy.
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 19:57:21 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: getting the story straight
Message:
>Are you certain that the dates of Marolyn's hospital stay correspond to the dates of the missed knowledge session?

M spoke about having to immediately leave a tour to return to his wife when she had the serious illness and almost died.
I think he mentioned missing a promised K session and having it carried out by instructors.

1995 seems about right from my recollection.
I saw the talk where this issue came up in Pasadena,CA.

M doesn't set people up for a K session and then bail out for no reason.

Paula should check out the details and learn something in the process.

CD
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 21:52:35 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Silence
Message:
So many ideas are expressed here.
But if I step back (focus in) for a while......
and encounter the 'silence'.....
and ask 'what do I know?...
there is no answer....only this vast silence and the super-imposition of my question...what do I know?
What does this silence mean?
What does it mean that there is no answer and even the question disappears...what does this mean?
What am I to do?
I surrender to this silence ....but soon after this a thought ...no, an insight emerges...
'If only we could all meet in this silence....we would experience our Oneness....our universal identity.
If we could only transcend our ego's ...our minds....just for a while....and dive deep into this infinite power......perhaps our thoughts and actions could begin to express in more appropriate ways .'
The problem with the mind is the semi-evolved (and semi-ignorent) delusion it suffers from ....which creates a sense of psuedo autonomy and individuality.
Autonomy and individuality are magnificent expressions of the One Universal Consciousness.....but Mind severed or seperated from Universal (divine) consciousness leads often to a situation like an arm arguing with a leg.......or the right eye arguing with the left eye.
All these mind-sets here on the forum are in the super reality of truth One Consciousness....One sovereignity.
It is the age-old riddle of the One and the many.
Solve this riddle and there will be a sudden awakening....powerful and sublime.
Dive into the silence!
Keith
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:39:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Yes, please
Message:
No, just kidding, Keith.

Hey why don't you try to get interviewed for Andrew Kohan's promotional magazine, What is Enlightenment?.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 00:15:55 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Please please me, oh yeah
Message:
Hey that's Koan, not Kohan
But seriously Jim

The mind is fine when it's sublime
and life is more fun when we are one.

It's pathetic, I know but the thousand dollar sale I made earlier today just walked back in the door. You should of heard what I said to THEM.

Anybody want to by a rosewood acoustic guitar?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 00:16:29 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Silence
Message:
Kieth:

Autonomy and individuality are magnificent expressions of the One Universal Consciousness.....but Mind severed or seperated from Universal (divine) consciousness leads often to a situation like an arm arguing with a leg.......or the right eye arguing with the left eye.

How is it that individuality is only valuable as the expression of one universal consciousness? If there were never such a thing as 'negative freedom' (which is essentially the freedom from interference) then we would be living in a gigantic prison. I've never seen the right eye argue with the left, but if it happened I would want to know the source of the controversy? An arm arguing with a leg is equally novel. If you're going to make an argument by analogy, at least pick a better one. You are intellectually lazy.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 00:27:05 (EST)
From: *>*.....Bill
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: song of life
Message:
Kieth old buddy, the eastern thinking invasion has
a wonderful way of making it seem that the design of the humans
has this gapeing flaw.
We would all be fine IF.
If we were all somehow ONE.
If we were able to transcend our ego's by this mythical
option of mergeing while we are here.
If only we could be free of our free will and our ability to
think.

Imagine the long wait the power had waiting for the universe to
get to the point that a fantastic planet could support
and evolve a human. 18 billion years or so.

So here we are typeing and infected with the buddha disease, we
long for something else.

It is not like we are the first guys here. And by the time of our arrival the economy and standard of living is just
amazing. Past folks had some REAL difficult lives.

Consider that nobody on the forum can name one person who
has attained some godhead state.

There are SO many foolish guru's, lama's, lahiri masi types
that are fooled by their own misunderstanding of what
they are actually doing when they experience something they think
is MORE. They think they have attained 'IT' and therefore
they foolishly think there is no concious power.
The concious power meanwhile, is drumming it's fingers
going 'jeeze, what am I? Some nothing? YOU experience so much
through your senses and just because you close your eyes you
have gone beyond the senses? You have merged with ME? You
think I am not a factor! Go! enjoy your dismissal of the
best friend a living human can have.'

You want to meet US inside so we can all find our
true oneness. Why not drop the eastern robbery and find the
friend insideand outside.
We are different from the breath out. And there is no
chance of us going beyond our differences.
We were designed this way!

Enjoy the reality as it is. You are unique and so are we.
The eastern types are truly missing the boat on how to
pass the time.

Maybe the christian/jewish/moslem scene is a fragmented mess,
but dont let that throw you into the camp of those that
dont recognise the smart and concious power that exists.
Trying to view things from the point of 'oneness'
does not make us one and also does not make the concious
power any less existant. The only thing you may be feeling the
need for when you call out for unity, is a simple
acceptance of the reality that you are alive, and a power
that is concious is alive also, and maybe a little
relationship there is called for before you die.
So that you get the most out of life.

Because the design IS, that you are the drop, the bigger part
is there, IT has a personality and if there is a back and forth
between the two, and fun and enjoyment of life is there,
then 18 billion years of makeing this place is worth it.

No need for some other human to get in the way.
No need for all the huge religious organizations.
BUT, when you drift from a simple one on one, adding that
third and forth person gets us lost in a lifetime of ideas
and practices that rob of us of the best way to live.

Nothing wrong with feeling the breath, just something wrong
with adding ANY third person.

instead of lets merge,

let's be free.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:16:41 (EST)
From: GeRrY
Email: None
To: *>*.....Bill
Subject: song of life
Message:
WILD bILL,

A LiTtle KafKaEsqE ANd I HaD too ReaD It a FeW tiMes, BUt I THiNk I CaTCh Your DriFt.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:42:24 (EST)
From: GeRrY
Email: None
To: *>*.....Bill
Subject: song of life
Message:
Bill,

What fun! The more I read the more I get out of it! Really. AND it goes really well with the Pinot Noir.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:22:05 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: *>*.....Bill
Subject: song of life
Message:
Maybe we could callout for ourselves to have humanity if not unity. What if we could change evolution by a change in attitude from survival of the fittest to survival of the most humane? Is there any hope for Abel?
Carol
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:15:26 (EST)
From: Guru Mariachi
Email: mgdbach@ziiplink.net
To: Keith
Subject: Silence
Message:
I gots yer silence right here......
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:18:26 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: my forum mates
Subject: Silence and noise
Message:
You forum buddies really don't pay attention...
and Scott, you call me intellectually lazy......which I am often enough.....but who are you?
Well, I am not extolling the virtues of the ONE over the many.....but rather suggesting that One without the other is intrinsically incomplete and from an evolutional perspective in it's adoloscence.
Mind simply needs to know that it walks hand in hand with it's own greater SELF. (another lazy analogy....sorry Scott).
Mind likes to puff itself up and assert 'I am the king of the castle'.
Free will is possible but the usual sense of free will is an illusion.
Think about it? When are you truly free of your conditioning ?
We all carry around layers of unfree 'noise' and from this noise we make decisions .....but free decisions? Really?
On the other hand, I do believe it is possible to experience authentic free will.
But not from within the realms of an autonomous mind seperated from its own source.
True individuality blossoms as an expression ...a manifestation...out of a sublime, reality..that is a common universal consciousness (like an ocean) which is our ONE original
Home.
Your sense of individuality is essentially the same as mine.
That is common. Out of this common pool our unique entityness
emerges .
You still have not penetrated into the great riddle of the One and the many.
The eyes still look in different directions(cross-eyed).
OKAY! Ridicule my words again....you skeptics you!
Or enter the silence long enough to reach a little 'aha!'.
Or awaken and send your donations to ....ooopppps....getting carried away again.
Swami Keithie Ji .
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 11:17:47 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Silence and noise
Message:
Kieth:

You still have not penetrated into the great riddle of the One and the many.

From the perspective of philosphy and the social sciences this is often called 'methodological individualism.' To what extent is there such a thing as a 'group choice,' or are all choices ultimately the aggregated choices of individuals? The concept that there is no free will is certainly not in the ascendency right now, although this business of social choice occupies a lot of people. You might look at it this way: If there is no free will then there is not any real reason to undulge a right to non-interference. To the extent that people behave like rats their behavior is predictable and can therefore appropriately be a matter of economic or political manipulation 'for the greater good' (James Buchanan). The problem is that this is not what humans are like. Making a choice also makes you responsible for the consequences of that choice. Your metaphysical conjectures are not a valid solution to these problems. Concepts like 'higher self' and 'one original home' are basically religious convictions, and their propriety is determined by a religious marketplace. The more free that marketplace and the discourse about such values the less coerced the choices and the less likely those choices are to reflect programming. It is incredibly naive and somewhat disrespectful to expect people to accept a prepackaged bundle of those concepts as the solution to what you term 'the riddle of the one and the many,' or what Kenneth Arrow and others call 'methodological individualism.'

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:09:02 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Metaphysical conjecture.
Message:
Scott, you said,
'Making a choice also makes you responsible for the consequences of that choice. Your metaphysical conjectures are not a valid solution to these problems. '

Being responsible for choices we make and the consequences thereof is no proof of free will.
And I have not claimed or inferred that metaphysical conjectures, mine or anyone elses can be 'a valid solution to these problems'.
We are discussing these things. The so-called problem of the One and the many cannot be solved by metaphysical conjecture......nor can any of the great issues of existence be
solved or resolved this way.
Metaphysical enquiry can be a useful approach but needs to be superceded by 'emperical' experience.
And I cannot transmit my emperical experience onto you .....nor can we refute each others interpretation of emperical experience , without falling into a very arrogant and illogical position.
So the scientist may scratch his head and exclaim,
' but that leaves one in an abstact , nebulous , meaningless
chaos.'
And this apparent 'chaos' needs to be confronted......as there is a hidden order and synergy (a truly occult reality)
awaiting discovery.
But this 'order' goes way beyond the discoveries of the narrow confines of materialistic science.
These are more than just 'metaphysical' speculations for me.
I have experimented with and researched the metaphysics of life for 25 years .
We reallly are more than what our five senses inform us we are.
Regards , Keith
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:32:45 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Metaphysical conjecture.
Message:
Keith:

Being responsible for choices we make and the consequences thereof is no proof of free will.... And I have not claimed or inferred that metaphysical conjectures, mine or anyone elses can be 'a valid solution to these problems'.

It is not a matter of responsibility being 'proof' of free will. Turn it around. If there is no free will then there is no responsibility. If you believe this a useful way to approach the world sobeit. I just disagree.

The so-called problem of the One and the many cannot be solved by metaphysical conjecture......nor can any of the great issues of existence be solved or resolved this way.... Metaphysical enquiry can be a useful approach but needs to be superceded by 'emperical' experience.
And I cannot transmit my emperical experience onto you .....nor can we refute each others interpretation of emperical experience , without falling into a very arrogant and illogical position.


1. Many of the great issues concerning society can be resolved using rational analytical processes. For instance, Vilfredo Pareto resolved a number of crucial problems associated with individual optimization within a group dynamic. This is not the sort of fatalistic process you seem to believe in.
2. I assume you mean to say 'subjective experience' rather than 'empirical experience' since empiricism refers to evidence that can be shared and the interpretation of which is consensual. We need not fall into an 'arrogant and illogical position' even in the case of subjective experience, as long as we can make valid judgments about honesty and sincerity. Subjective experience need not compel us to live in a condition of 'speechless isolation.'
3. As far as shared experience goes there is no such thing as 'metaphysical enquiry.' I can make inquiry concerning your veracity and sincerity, but since your experience is subjective, whether or not it is real is actually a question only you can answer, and that only for yourself. If your patterns of belief contain inconsistencies I can warn you that you may be misinterpreting. I think this is what Dawkins refers to as a 'mind virus.' If your patterns of belief seem consistent and attractive I can attempt to find the same thing within myself, based partly on your expressive descriptions. That is why accuracy and 'right formedness' (syntax, etc.) are important.

So the scientist may scratch his head and exclaim,
' but that leaves one in an abstact , nebulous , meaningless
chaos.'.... And this apparent 'chaos' needs to be confronted......as there is a hidden order and synergy (a truly occult reality) awaiting discovery.


Science is not in an 'abstract, nebulous, meaningless chaos.' It may not have resolved every question, but that is far from the same thing. If there is a hidden order and synergy awaiting discovery, what's the problem? Quit hiding the candidate, whatever its real condition. If it is not order and synergy, but rather self-delusion, aren't you better off discovering that? If it is order and synergy, aren't we all better off if you quit hiding your connection to it, or insisting that it must remain forever hidden?

Sorry I don't have time to attend to more than one thread at present.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:56:52 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Metaphysical conjecture.
Message:
Agree strongly with your last point, Scott. Science is merely a way of doing things, finding out about the universe, and - above all - trying to make sure you are not wrong in your conjectures .
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:26:36 (EST)
From: *>*...hi kieth
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: bobby are you around?
Message:
I'll reread your post some and get back to you in a few days.
small trip. Dont fergit sometimes we all wander off what
the topic the person posted and add thoughts from
other post subjects. Sorry if I put words in your mouth in a
sense. I wasnt trying to criticise you, I am in an evolution
of trying to understand also.
But I was glad to have your post to bounce off because it
was perfectly timed for me and I needed to express.

The eastern thinking is quite insidious.
And incorrect.
The concious power is not, after 18 billion years at least,
an adolecent.
And I see no need to criticise the nature of humans as
a faulty design. Or pretend that self absorbed vibrators
are more fun at work than some simple joe who is honest
and down to earth about his life and makes no bones about
that he is grateful to his god for everything.

spiritual pride is the greatest sin said somebody with
some interesting credentials.
It is not a confused mind trip to recognise the reality
that the larger concious power has its own personality
and ways. Eastern types think they are so smart that they just
KNOW that there is no reality to all the evidence the common
man finds to support thier faith in god.

The eastern geniuses have a smug contempt for our illusion
of some bahkti-related misperception of the nature of the
big blank oneness.

It is not the MIND that stupidly needs to just hold it's
own hand! Come on, that is more of that spiritual pride and
the it's all illusion stuff.

So it is MIND? to accept yourself? There is no such thing as
growing up and accepting yourself? Being a father to a kid is
some fantasy state to ponder? Or a gift to enjoy?
Where is bobby when you need him?
What do you think Bobby?
Are you around?
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:48:30 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: *>*...hi kieth
Subject: bobby are you around?
Message:
*>*(bb)or(to b or not to b?),
There is indeed much to bounce off for me too, in what you
say.
But for now I shall pick on one strain.
I feel you have a very narrow understanding of the great diversity of eastern thinking and describe only one shade, of what is a massive tapestry of colours.
Much of eastern thinking views the 'godhead' as a power or force that indeed has a 'personality'....and certainly not some abstract, godless, nebulous , vague energy.
Keith
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 01:48:23 (EST)
From: *>*..b
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: bobby are you around?
Message:
Hi kieth, see you in a week.
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:06:48 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Sound and Fury
Message:
Dear Keith
So many things concern me about your posts in this thread but I want to ask you about this one
Mind simply needs to know that it walks hand in hand with it's own greater SELF...
Mind likes to puff itself up and assert 'I am the king of the castle'

By the way Keith, I am not critizing you, I see you are open to thinking for yourself and I find many things you say interesting. You seem to change quite a bit, wearing different hats. I notice that because I do it too.
Well on this one about the Mind. This is my question, who says the Mind is separate from the greater Self anyway. Who created this concept that there is mind and there is soul/heart and they are separate. Who knows what the mind really is anyway? We know it's not the brain, but as far as I know no-one has been able to locate it's physcial presence in the body.
So what is this Mind thing anyway?
I don't wish to spiral you further into the great unconscious/collective universe or anything like that.
I just mean, why do we accept these premises in the first place? Isn't it good to examine the foundations on which we have built our beliefs? Do these kind of thoughts make you happy? Or do they make you feel alone, and lost?
I had to do that examining for years in psychotherapy and it really helped me even though it was cutting at times. because that great hazy realm of thoughts - similar to dope-smoking thoughts, I think - actually drags you into the mire and keeps you there.
Just my opinion, please don't let it bother you at all.
I appreciate you posting here and see that like all of us you are really making an effort.
Regards
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:50:13 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
Last night, getting ready for bed, two thing occured to me about this whole trip:

1) When I first heard of Maharaji, at 18, and started 'learning' that he was 'one with God' and all, I began to think that he was therefore aware of me. Indeed, it was only his grace that had orchestrated my life so that I was finally attending satsang. Maharaji was more aware of me than I him (I needed Knowledge for that) and was calling me home.

Then, as a new premie, I completely threw myself into the faith that Maharaji was everywhere and all I needed to do was meditate so as to get out of the way and appreciate his immediate glory. Oh happy day!

As the years passed, however, I started to lose this vision. For a while I'd pay lip service to it, then it would flash real for me again, then I'd slip back out. Eventually it was just an idea. Obviously, my mind was indulging in doubt. Oh confusion!

Finally, I came to realize the sad but honest truth, Maharaji didn't know me from Adam. (Here's a little thought experiment for all the premies out there: imagine that Maharaji's shown ten pictures of people picked at random. Imagine that yours is in there too. So that's then including you. What do you think the odds are that Maharji will be able to pick out his devotee from that line-up? This doesn't work if you've spent any time aroudn the guy but is a completely interesting question for people who might have served him long and hard from a distance. Hm? Think about it.)

Now, because of this web site, I'd guess that Maharaji knows who I am. After all, I did send him that letter with Brian 's post and Linda Gross did promise me she'd try to get it to him somehow. Plus, maybe he's actually read this page. Who knows? Maybe he's read it a lot. (Tell me that no one told him that Marolyn's letter was posted. Maybe John Horton let him know!).

So, that's it. Just seems like things have really come full circle in a way.

________________________________________________________________

The other thing I thought about was 'goals'. I could end up spending a lot of my life being an anti-M gadfly. That's fine. You got to do something with your time, why not challenge your former guru? Yet I wonder, is there any acutal horizon on this? I suppose if we chased Maharaji out of town, we might be forced to cut back a bit. Like, when the battle's over, it's over, isn't it? Or are we so charged with this thing that, let's face it, we're going to be playing with it for the rest of our lives?

No, I don't think we're going to chase Maharjai out of town or anything like that. I do think we're going to have a real impact on his trip though. I don't know. It's undeniable that he can't answer for himself. He's gone too far out on too high a limb to be able to do that. So what's going to happen? He won't be able to ignore us forever without really losing credibility in the premies he still has. Honestly, that's got to happen. It's happening already, right Keith?

So, I was just thinking about things, that's all.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:31:48 (EST)
From: d@vid
Email: M@rble m@nsions
To: Jim
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
Jim mused: So, I was just thinking about things, that's all.

Dangerous things... thoughts... just when you think you have it all sussed, wham, bang, the little fuckers hit you between the eyeballs and you realise that it's all just a ridiculous mind game.

Like you Jim, I sometimes wonder whether we've had any effect on Big M and his Ministry of Untruth. My pessimistic view is that he feeds on such criticism. He probably feels that he's had it easy... after all, what's a few angry posts on the Internet compared to being nailed to a cross?

And maybe we should just leave him to his ministry. It's not as though he's doing any real harm. Annie is as happy as a pig in shit (if you'll pardon the earthly analogy Annie).

They say that a religious belief puts years on one's life span. Ol' Blue Eyes would have paid millions for another few days. So why begrudge Capn' Rawat his marble mansions and spittle-stained socks?

You have to hand it to the man. After all, it must be an incredibly hard act to play. I was amazed to read that letter from Marolyn. It really shook me to think that she didn't see through him after living that closely to him for all these years.

But perhaps we're in the wrong. Perhaps we're playing the part of the pharasees baying for the blood of the Chosen One. There's a thought to sleep on! Sweet dreams, Jim.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 00:44:52 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: d@vid
Subject: greeting to d@vid
Message:
Hello, D@vid. I was going to respond to your post, but I am too tired to be coherent, so I'll just say hi, and that it's good to see you on the site. I'd be interested in hearing more of what you thought about Marolyn's letter if you had the time and/or inclination to expound on your thoughts.

Regards from Katie
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:19:12 (EST)
From: d@vid
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: greeting to k@tie
Message:
Katie asked: I'd be interested in hearing more of what you thought about Marolyn's letter if you had the time and/or inclination to expound on your thoughts.

Very briefly Katie, I found it very sad. She's either very stupid or very devious. I have to admit that I'm inclined to believe the latter. My feeling is that she's probably grown accustomed to being Mrs Lord of the Universe and doesn't want to come down to earth and sully her lilly white hands with the rest of the human race.

But if I remember right, she's got some kind of serious illness, so I wouldn't want to be too hard on her. And perhaps those of us in glass houses shouldn't throw too many stones. But I do find it amazing that she can spout the same old claptrap after all these years. But maybe a peek behind the harsh reality of death's final curtain will awaken her senses.

I really hope she survives safe, healthy and a lot wiser. After all, she could set the record straight like no one else. You never know... perhaps one day...
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:46:56 (EST)
From: frank
Email: None
To: d@vid
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
Marolyn saw through him plenty.
The hairdresser at the res said: she would leave him except
that is where the money is.

The housekeeper pranam bai said: I dont know how she puts
up with all the shit.
I heard about one time when marolyn said ' I am leaving you'
and I heard he started hitting her. I probably will get some
flack for that one. Maybe mark can tell some hitting stories.
I know a few.
Sorry to say.
Tip of the iceberg right bruce?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:55:09 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: frank
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
I feel kind of guilty for being a gossip, but so what? Frank, I havent' heard any hitting stories, that's very upsetting but not truly surprising.
I keep wondering about M's sons. I never see them at the events. I used to see them sitting - front row of course - but not lately. I just can't imagine what it would be like for those 4 children/adults.
I did hear that Marolyn was in treatment in the 80's. I loved the rationale of the person who told me this 'Anyone that close to M would need to medicate themselves to be able to handle all that powerful energy' good one .
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:47:24 (EST)
From: *>*.......Frank
Email: None
To: frank
Subject: ignored evidence
Message:
I am a little leery of reading the thread.
I imagine there might be a question of what my
reasoning is at telling that above story.

As a gopi and a devotee that m maufactured in the seventies,
I never hung out with anybody that was against m.
I never went to a web site or anti m group meeting.

I didnt hang out with wavering premie types.
ALL the stories I have heard were told to me one at a time
on different days by premies-I mean real devotees that would
just blab them out I guess as soon as they heard them. I always
would flinch at all the stories and never asked once for
another story or any more details. It was always hard
but I had some form of way to shove all those stories
into some corner of my head and look away.

Mark said he used to just look at the stories he heard and
the premies leaving as some form of spiritual evolution
survival of the fittest darwinism. Only the strong premies
survived. He finally broke throught that.

I think I was able to deflect the stories and all the premies
close to m leaving because of my aspirant program.
Before millenium, I was talked to nightly by Rehka Krishna
dasi loomba. She would talk for two or three hours to just me.
She had been a hari krishna devotee for years then
somehow she came to m and she ended up being Mata ji's
personal servant. She told me about how different guru's
would drive thier devotees in circles just to drive out
all of them except only the most devoted.
One used to make his devotees rebuild and rebuild and rebuild and
rebuild his house till there was only one guy left.
Another pretended to kill people but he was only killing
sheep with his bloody knife till most all of the followers left.
I shortened the story of course.
The one about the guru telling the followers to not eat
fish and them him eating fish and then the followers see that so
THEY atart eating fish and the supposide guru says what are you
doing eating fish and they say but we saw YOU eating fish and
he pulls alive fish out of his stomach and says when you
can do this you can eat fish. Total lie story but there
are a lot in the tradition rawat grew up in. All to support the
lie of the guru being something he wasn't.
And since all the guru's go alittle or alot nuts because they
play god, excuses have evolved for thier bad behaviours.
One saying is-dont get too close to the guru. he islike fire
and if you get too close you get burned.
I used to wonder a lot HOW do you survive being aroud m and
not leave like many others. I finally came to the understanding
that you just had to be in some totally submissive state
where you were his total slave. And many stories reflect
rawat's belief in that kind of up close total domination
of others. And not with love either.

Rehka had been working as a servant at the res. as a volunteer
till the early nineties when she was banned for bringing
emperadas with her to the residence and selling them to the
premies working there as a way to make money.
Again another story from someone who I know quite well
that didnt care about her like I do.
When you bring someone to the point of believing you are the
god like he so very clearly did to us and then ban them from
serveing at your res, it is putting them WAY out on a limb
and cutting it off.

She spent her unwed life following her krishna but he isnt
comeing through. He isnt her krishna and that is really
some big wrong deed to do to her.

I leak out stories I have heard as I gain more acceptance
of the reality
He is still capable of pulling those strings or pushing those
buttons as seen by the recent miami. All the steady stream of
stories from his real life behavior have run parallel to
all the events where he plays the role of humanitarian/god-
incarnate.

Im not in the mood for a few more punching stories tonight.
I've told a few already. All the many different varients of
bad behaviour stories are just clues for my benefit.
It took forever to accept the stream of evidence of
his real inner condition. Which is ---I cant articulate
any more on him tonight, but, you know.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:23:20 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: *>*.......Frank
Subject: ignored evidence
Message:
I understand your being leery. Please don't feel that
you owe me any further stories or explanations.
My curiosity or concern RE: the boys is just because
I have 2 who are a year apart and they kind of look like
them and I always felt this connection somehow. Concern,
actually. As for the treatment story about Marolyn, well, same thing, I went thru it in the 80's so I just wondered and thought How can this be? If he is for real, how can she be so unhappy?
It's oK. I understand that you can only post
what you can. I have seen myself do this over and over.
Thank you for what you have given. It means so much to me. To have an honest answer, it's better than gold.
Certainly better than M's sham of divine knowledge.
There are ways to get in touch with me, if you want to or ever think you should, but , truthfully, I may not
be able to handle it either. Thanks again.

Selena
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:32:53 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: puzzlin' evidence
Message:
p.s.
Just wanted to add, evidence is evidence. It doesn't matter to
me if it ever gets proven in a court of law. Anything that rings true and therefore helps me accept myself and my doubts, and justifies the fact that there is value to critical thinking, that is enough.
Thanks again.
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:02:39 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: puzzlin' evidence
Message:
Your clarity has helped me on numerous occasions
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:40:20 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
As I read your post and also think about posts like Annie's and Richard's I wonder what it takes to hurt his credibility with many premies. They seem to fall into several categories(sorry for the simplification):

1. Long-time premies (ashram or otherwise) for whom M is still the Perfect Master, Lord of the Universe (but don't say it too loudly) and incapable of doing anything wrong. They truly 'do not leave any room for doubt in their minds.'(I forget which commandment this is.

2. Ashram premies who moved out in the early years or premies who managed to get on with their lives while still attending programs, remaining involved and still believing in their Guru.
(like devout catholics they simply ignore aspects of their practices or beliefs which don't fit)

3. Long-time premies who have always thought it cool to have a guru, but really never let having K interfere with anything else in their lives. In the early years we looked down on these poor folks who couldn't commit, and who gave us reason to do 'premie maintenance' (remember that!).

4. New premies (last 10 years or so) who probably remain ignorant of the past due to premie revisionism. I haven't had any contact with these new premies(except reading some posts) so I don't know what they are conditioned to believe.

5. Is there an on-the-fence group?

To me, one of the saddest things is that many of the above simply stop seeking. What's the point of searching and exploring when you have found the answer? What benefit could other forms of psychological and/or spiritual growth be, when you have been given the source of peace in the world? This belief is particulary pernicious and suspends critical thinking and why it is so difficult to have any impact on premie thinking. But for any premies or would be premies who tune in, this site is the only place where they will get any real dialog or info on M.

I enjoy your posts, keep on thinking. Paul
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:58:58 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: 1 more group
Message:
There is a group, or rather there are individuals who received the techniques in the earliest days when they were just thrown out to whoever was there and who never bought into the devotion thing and never even saw M in person!

The person who told me about K was one of these. He received K in a big session of about 70 people with Rajeshwar in April 1972 in Portland. I went to my 1st program with him at a park in Portland where M did not show! He never tried to see him again, but I went to the house where M stayed the next day and saw him leave for the airport. Then I hung around and got K 5 days later. I got hooked when Joan Apter sang 'Love is the opening door, Love is what we came here for, no one could offer you more, Do you know what I mean? Have your eyes really seen? ....I thought I did! I used to think my friend was one of those people described in the Bible parable of the sower and the seed who planted in the rocky soil or who didn't water the plant with darshan! i ought to tell him he was right to walk away!
Carol
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:02:23 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
Paul, your post made me think about this in a new way.

I think 'new premies' (last 10 years ago) are probably the most vulnerable to things like the website because they have been essentially lied to about BM's past. When they find out the truth, they might start questioning things.

Also, as you said, they are less programmed into 'the-Perfect-Master-can-Do-No-Wrong' programming from the 70s. Unfortunately, I think there are very few of these people, and most of M's ardent followers are from the 70s. It's a middle-aged group who still believes BM is god, or close to it, but are falling into line and not talking about it. These are the people who demanded that BM start giving darshan again. They WANT devotion and worship of BM. That's what they get high on and want, in my opinion. A group of these will likely stick with him no matter what BM does that's incompetent or immoral, and even if he tells them to get lost. That's how strong the psychological addiction is.

So, Paul, how long have you been an ex-premie? When did you live in the LA ashram? I probably know you.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:09:00 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
JW
I was in the SF ashram in 1972(received K in 10/71-Toronto and made first pilgramage to India), the LA ashram in 1973 and was transferred to KC in Dec. of 73. While in LA, I lived in the big white house on wilshire and worked in the DUO office on Larchmont. I was transferred briefly to Boston, from KC, in 1974, but David Smith did me in by maintaining the most oppressive ashram environment imaginable, so I moved back to KC, and moved in with my now wife of 22 years. I really faded out of K in late 70s during the endless requests for money.

Oddly enough, out of curiosity and temporary psychosis, we went to the long beach program last year(first one in 20 years) and I could feel the seductiveness of the whole trip. Unfortunately for premies, they equate the feelings with M and not with the fact that they are just getting in touch with their own feelings and inner Self-something they would experience on any religious retreat,similar event or a few days in the Rockies.
So, JW do I know you?

Paul
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:32:50 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Paul
Subject: to Paul off topic
Message:
Hi Paul - was wondering if you still live in Kansas City or if you've moved back to the west coast (please don't feel that you have to answer if you want to remain anon). My husband and I have lived in the 'show me' state since 1995, and will for the forseeable future (I am from DC).
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:48:53 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: PSOK52@aol.com
To: Katie
Subject: to Paul off topic
Message:
Katie: I'm still here and living in Johnson County. Would be happy to talk with you. E-mail me. Paul
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 11:32:09 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Paul
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
Hi Paul,

I didn't make it to the West Coast until towards the end of 1980, but I also existed for awhile under the oppressive nazi dictatorship of Mr. David Smith. Maybe he did both of us a favor. I found his attitude so uncaring and cruel that it really got me to doubt BM big time. I think it was the thing that finally got me to leave the cult entirely. That guy is a real piece of work. I hope he got some therapy.

Unfortunately, my 'heaviest' involvement was in the late 70s during all the heavy fundraising and the heavy 'devotion' period. During that time, I was at IHQ and a community coordinator, I am now ashamed to say, and hence one of BM's strident henchmen. When the war crimes tribunal is established, I hope they are kind to me.

So, I probably don't know you, although I also lived in the Boston ashram (but only for a few months in 1976, that was a great house in Brookline). After living in the Chicago ashram for almost 3 years, I was transferred around to different places (DC, San Antonio, Boston, Miami and finally San Francisco). I received K in 1973. I haven't been involved since 1983, when I left for good, but I did watch a video of a Long Beach program in 1996, that I found kind of disturbing; mostly because I was surprised at how little the BM had changed.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:52:45 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
Now, because of this web site, I'd guess that Maharaji knows who I am. After all, I did send him that letter with Brian 's post and Linda Gross did promise me she'd try to get it to him somehow. Plus, maybe he's actually read this page. Who knows? Maybe he's read it a lot. (Tell me that no one told him that Marolyn's letter was posted. Maybe John Horton let him know!).

Is that one of your goals, Jim, for BM to know who you are?

I think if he really is so deluded that he believes he is the perfect master of our time, he likely rationalizes that the PM is often not recognized and even hated by many people, and that is the usual course of affairs. In that sense, he probably sees you, or any of the other people like me who say negative things about him, as just part of the divine lila and an absolutely necessary part of the perfect master drama. So, he probably should be thanking you, Jim.

Finally, I came to realize the sad but honest truth, Maharaji didn't know me from Adam.

Quite true, and he didn't know me either. The galling part is that he couldn't care less whether he knew any of his devotees or not. He had no interest in them, except to the extent he could give him stuff he wanted. Hence, note that most of the premies BM DID know, were either necessary to run his operations, or very rich. Funny coincidence that. How many ashrams in this country did BM ever step foot in? Hardly any.

No, I don't think we're going to chase Maharjai out of town or anything like that. I do think we're going to have a real impact on his trip though.

I agree, but sometimes I think we might contribute to his becomming even more paranoid than he already is, and I think that might have detrimental effects on some of the premies who are the most vulerable to him. That does kind of worry me, as it's the premies that I actually care about. BM is entirely expendible in my opinion. The other thing is that I imagine he might be driven to doing something really stupid, but that remains to be seen.

No, he likely won't ever confront his former devotees, although I would absolutely love it if he did. He can only loose if he tries that. I do think it's interesting that he mentioned something about it at the Miami program, according to CD, that people were saying negative things about him. Since nothing has been published recently, he must have been referring to us. It IS apparently starting to get to him or he wouldn't have mentioned it. Whether that's good or bad, I don't know.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:55:21 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
Well, I guess we could keep having some kind of cyber breakfast club, but I think you are right Jim. Goal wise, this forum and this site are going to change and maybe at some point there won't be a lot of reason to have it. that would be nice. I mean, that would mean M had died out, lost his following. I'd miss it though.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 21:38:58 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: All of you
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
Another category, although I may be the only one in it? People who were exposed to M a long time ago, when he was the Lord of the Universe. Then we put the Lord on hold to get on with their lives. Then we started trying to get information on him again. If this website didn't exist, I would have been in Miami recently, maybe. I think this website is a great thing. Maybe people other than us will be talking here in the future. But I hope that someone will be talking here. Helping people the way I was helped.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:53:45 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
VP, do you think there are more of you?
Do you really think this site helped? I think it would
be beneficial to hear how you were searching and found this web site,
or at this point I guess I should say how you found 'us'.
It may be in Journeys but I may be suffering from
short term memory loss. I didn't see it there. I don't have
an entry there either, for reasons that are too
weird to explain. But, I am intrigued by your 'category'.
I think I have friends - and my sons have friends who fit.
Please excuse me if I am getting too personal and ignore
me if that is the right thing for you to do.

after all, I have declared myself the resident
politically incorrect brat. So, anything else is a go.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 00:36:24 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena and VP
Subject: VP's story
Message:
Brian and I talked about having VP write a Journeys entry, but I can't remember if I ever mentioned it to VP. I think it would be a very valuable addition to the site. Only it wouldn't go in Journeys, it would go in the aspirant section (there are already two essays there). How about it, VP?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 09:48:02 (EST)
From: Pajama man
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: VP's story
Message:
Katie,
My story is really boring. Not nearly as fun as Annie in her armbands or Jim running around the ashram in a little towel, or David guarding the cheese. When some situations change, I am going to write it. VP
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 01:40:15 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
HI Katie, just wondering:

Where to put VP?? i.e. - to ask VP to put his entry in
the aspirant section on this site seems out of place to me. He is unique, that's why we know and love him, why force the entry in the aspirant
section? I don't see him as an aspirant. VP? did I miss something? Are you aspiring to receive the K from M?

VP please excuse me, I hope i am not making you
uncomfortable with this entry, but somehow I know you won't say or do anything you don't want to, and you know where you belong, whether you choose to clue us in or not.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 09:42:30 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Aspiring to push on the eyes
Message:
Yes, I was aspiring. I can't go in the Journeys section. Alas, always in the back row...:) More to you later VP
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 09:59:24 (EST)
From: ex-aspirant
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
Selena,
Probably there are others who have similar stories. Yes, this place really helped me. I already knew everything that I found here, does this make sense? The information here just helped me to confirm what I already knew but perhaps didn't want to admit. VP
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:52:21 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: ex-aspirant
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
Yes, you are making perfect sense. It was the same for me.
I already had all these thoughts but of course when I spoke
to the devout, they weren't exactly responsive
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:24:14 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I was thinking
Message:
I just want to say that I really appreciate everything you are doing on this Forum. I questioned your motives but that's just me, pity I never learned to do that ever before in my whole life.
I was just practicing on you.
I really think you're wonderful, and kind. I like you even though I don't understand you. I am glad I met you on this Forum.
Ok?
PS Someone saved my life today, didn't they
(to you all)
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:05:59 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Starting again?
Message:
I had only briefly absorbed some of the messages on this forum before I started to engage in dialogue, reacting to the posts without understanding the full context or mis-reading the shorthand which exists between friends.

I was as surprised to be accused of denial (Jim) as I was to be agreed with by people whose views I didn't particularly find agreeable.

What has surprised me most of all is the breadth and depth of all types of emotion and the strength of feeling which supports it. Maybe this is because I have purposely avoided premies (and ex-premies) and anything to do with DLM for a large number of years. I had forgotten (denied?) the difficulty of disobeying 'the rules' and the emotional impact that this can have on people and the damage it can do to your life.

The position which I have come to, practising the knowledge for its practical benefits (Jim calls it the sedative option) without deciding what to believe about Maharaji, appears to many to be a copout. The refusal to either condemn or worship Maharaji seems not to be a popular option, perhaps because it leaves so much unresolved and because it is not what people here want.

I do not wish to apologise for this view but I would like to apologise for not taking enough time to listen to what you guys were saying before I plunged into the debate.

Richard
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:03:14 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Richard
Subject: Starting again?
Message:
Thank you for your post, Richard. Although I don't think you need to apologize, I always appreciate it when people are honest about things, as you were in your post. I think it's hard for anyone to begin posting on the forum. I tend to be somewhat impulsive so I can appreciate the tendency to react to what people are saying without understanding the full context of the discussion. (It can take a LONG time to understand the full context too.)

Although I don't agree with your attitude about Maharaji, I think it's valuable to have a variety of different viewpoints expressed here, including yours. I hope you will keep on posting.

Regards from Katie
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:57:15 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard, what if..?
Message:
Richard,

Maharaji's made it easy to avoid judging him (for those who don't really want to) by wrapping almost every aspect of his life in a veil of secrecy. Are there any questions about him you can think of, the answers to which might change your mind? You don't know, for example, the details of Maharaji's finances. What if you did and they reflected greed, corruption and deceit?

(Maharaji, if you're reading this, don't have a cow. I'm just asking 'what if?' Hell, for all I know, your finances are secret becuase you'd be embarrassed if poepl really saw how much you donated to various charities.)

What if you learned the actual facts of how Maharaji got to bre a guru in the first place and they were hilariously comical? Might that trigger a littel judgment on your part?

What if, to be fair, you got to spend a week with Maharaji up close, only to realize that this guy is indeed God in Human Form? What if he showed you, privately such is his lila, absolutely outrageous miracles? What if he showed you, for once and for all, that the mind is some infestation of evil that's overcome us and that, best part of all, he could free you in an instant? Hell, what if he did free you in an instant? Would you still be so non-committal?

Really, it's largely an information thing, isn't it?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:40:11 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Information thing.
Message:
Yes Jim,
On one level it's an 'information thing' .
That's why on 'that level' it's impossible to judge
with any degree of accuracy.
Therefore one of my quests is to find out why there
is so much 'secrecy' and 'privacy'(lack of information).
Or to express this with a little more clarity.......
'why is information so controlled?'
'why is open questioning not encouraged?'
'why is the entire 'movement' so orchestrated
and seemingly autocratic in nature?'
'why is there so little power-sharing ?'

The problem for me is that without my questions being
respected and responded to I begin to have doubts where
previously I had none.

Still, it is definately premature for me to
judge anything definitively at this stage.

There are yet many questions I need to
ask of ex's too.
All in it's right time (hopefully).
Keith
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 22:42:56 (EST)
From: *>*....b
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Starting again?
Message:
Feeling your breath as you live is not a bad option.
However, you might be still living with a strong effect of
the intense 70's and early eighties.
THAT part might be improved by a look see.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 06:41:37 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: *>*....b
Subject: Starting again?
Message:
Dear *>*....b,

you might be still living with a strong effect of the intense 70's and early eighties. THAT part might be improved by a look see.

Ok I'm up for it, but you'll have to explain what you mean.

Richard
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:29:16 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Starting again?
Message:
Hi Richard,
I have to go to bed and I am going away on a trip.
I think what I meant was that I had to try to kind of
unravel my views and attitudes and behaviours that had
evolved from my years of involvement. I hope I meant it
as a friendly gesture. I know sometimes in my responses to
people I wrestle with the subject and sort of try to
convince myself and sort something out and I wonder
how that comes off to the other person. I might be wrong
but I think I am getting somewhere in this feeling things out
process here and I am glad folks put up with any and all
excesses. I dont mean to presume things when I post to you.
I bet I manage to do just that.
Anyway, goodnight and maybe you will post more often?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 11:37:05 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Just the Facts, Ma'am
Message:
Spiritual Slavery and Prostitution of the Soul

by Andrew Cohen

Question: I'm very confused about this matter of ethical conduct and its relationship to the enlightened understanding that you speak so much about. Why is it that so many gurus seem to be prey to the very same weaknesses as ordinary people? I would have thought that an ego that had died would not be able to act in the same selfish way as people who did not claim to be enlightened

Andrew Cohen: Maybe in the cases that you are speaking about, the ego didn't die. Maybe in these cases, there is a fully intact ego coexisting with a profound realization. Most people don't realize that ego and profound realization can coexist. It is for that reason that so many people have gotten into trouble.

Q: But I don't understand how, even after the failings of the guru have become obvious, people will still allow themselves to be taken advantage of. They often will continue to be followers in the face of unethical behavior, and in some cases even gross abuse.

A: Often when a person meets a teacher in whom the Absolute is manifesting to a powerful degree, their heart will open up unexpectedly. They may experience unusual insight and understanding just through mere association with this kind of extraordinary individual. After this kind of experience it is easy to understand how one may get very attached to that individual. The bond that is formed through experiences like these runs very deep. Slowly without even realizing it, in order to protect the love and beauty of that precious event, the person starts to be willing to overlook things. The minute that begins, they become corrupt themselves.

Q: Is that when they start to rationalize?

A: Yes, then they become corrupt, in the same way the guru is. When you try to talk to the disciples of these gurus about simple virtues, they often are unable to make any sense. Also, they will frequently say things like, 'Ethical conduct and enlightenment have nothing to do with each other,' in an attempt to justify the confusing behavior of their guru. The minute anybody allows themselves to tolerate corruption they become a part of it. These people desperately don't want to see the depth of the corruption that they themselves are immersed in. The security of their spiritual well-being depends on the fact that no matter what, the actions of the guru are never questioned. Because their hearts are so invested in the guru, they will make almost any rationalization or justification for the guru's actions. They will do almost anything in order to protect that love that the guru has revealed to them. This is spiritual slavery and prostitution of the soul. In weak-minded people the seal of enlightenment becomes a license for abuse.

Q: How is it then with the matter of trust? Does one ultimately only surrender to one's own knowing of the truth?

A: Yes.

Q: Then not to the guru?

A: Ultimately the guru and your knowing of truth should be one and the same. There shouldn't be any difference. If there is, there's something wrong. That means there is either something wrong in your idea of what the truth is and your experience of what the truth is or there's some defect in the guru. Ideally they should be perfectly synonymous.

Q: But shouldn't surrender be to truth alone?

A: But in a sense that's all people surrender to anyway. They surrender to their own experience. If you go to a teacher and you have a powerful experience, it's that experience that you surrender to. What usually happens next though, is that you get involved with the personality of the teacher. Powerful experience makes you hungry for more. That's why people get more involved. They want to get to know who this guru is. They fall in love and then want to be more intimate. Then they get involved with the personality of the teacher. At that point it's no longer just a spiritual experience; they begin to get involved with a human personality. That's when the trouble starts. If there's any trouble that could start, that's when it's going to begin.

When the personality of the guru and the love and beauty that the guru revealed begin to conflict with each other, that means something is wrong.

As I said before, people are weak, weak-minded, and if someone is truly enlightened, they will have a very powerful mind and be very charismatic. People are easily overwhelmed by that. Because their heart has been awakened, because they have been deeply touched by something, they often don't care about anything else. And in order to protect that experience, they will often tolerate just about anything. This is dangerous. This is a corrupt condition that a great deal of the spiritual world is in these days. If the guru is corrupt and you're intimately involved with the guru, you can't help but be corrupt yourself. It's unavoidable. By association it's an automatic result. It's a very delicate business.

Q: So how does one discern? To what degree do I question my own perception and trust?

A: Just go by the basics. There are some very basic, ethical laws that anybody who's not insane knows. They are not esoteric.

Q: So where do you draw the line?

A: The line is drawn where suffering is caused to other people due to selfish actions that stem from ignorance. That's where you draw the line.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 16:20:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: I like you Gerry
Message:
But I think your friend, Andrew Cohen, is just another snake. Here's another quote of his, and my reaction interspersed:

To be able to live in this way that is always miraculous, we must be willing to be in a state of not knowing.

Well that's a big, fancy statement. Who the hell do you think you are and what maes you think you know what you're talking about?

That means we have to be ready to embrace a kind of austerity that is relentless. This austerity is the unconditional renunciation of the need to know.

Yeah, fuck you too, Charlie. I'm not going to let any other jerk curtial my curiousity. That's just another manifestation of the guru trap, even if presented, here but not for the first time here, as a teaching to free one from guru's. What? You think we were born yesterday or something? Take a hike, Remus.

Indeed, there can be no final purity in any spiritual attainment unless one can do this perfectly. Purity can become manifest only when one is able to live without reservation in that knowledge that one doesn't know and will never know.

If I still had an appetite for this kind of garbage I could get it from Maharaji. After all, I paid for a lifetime membership.

I'm describing a way of living that most would consider strange, nonsensical and even dangerous.

You flatter yourself, Andy. I think the 'nonsensical' is a good fit. 'Strange' may be too. 'Dangerous'? Hell, the whole idea is so stupid I can't see anyone getting hurt by it. Well, maybe, but I still think you're glorifying your bullshit a little much to say the least.

You see, one discovers that one doesn't need to know in order to be able to function perfectly.

And how, pray tell, do you know THAT?

That's the miracle, that's the mystery and that is what is extraordinary about this.

There's nothing exraordinary about this, Bucko. Same junk, different container.

Then, here from the same page, idfferent article, is a little more of Mr. Koan's particular brand of foolishness:

Unless the individual is abiding at least 51% in that state of not knowing the mind, it will be impossible to effect any degree of perfection, which is the true expression of the ultimate source of being, in the world of time, space, location and mind.

Yeah, right. Like how does he know? '51%'.... that's too funny for words.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 16:57:54 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cracking the Cohen
Message:
Jim,

I've been hearing about this 'love for the guru' which I really didn't quite grasp. The article I posted was a plausible explanation of this, and therefore useful to anybody wanting to understand this phenomena.

Take one part truth, mix in ten parts bullshit and voila! a new doctrine. Some how the formula sounds familiar.

Good god, will he be the next to ascend to the Lotus Throne?

Where did you find the Cohen article YOU quoted ?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:12:04 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Cracking the Cohen
Message:
Gerry,

I got it from this website, dedicated to his What is Enlightenment? self-promotional magazine:

CohenCaca

Here, by the way, you'll find an article/interview/nothing really about Kramer and Alstead, authors of The Guru Papers.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:40:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Cracking the Cohen
Message:
Hey Jim,

I forgot an important thing here: the article I posted came from a supposedly anti-cult page! Leaving Sidda Yoga. The webmaster, Pendragon, is a pretty straight shooter. I don't know why he's giving air time to Cohen if AC is a cult leader himself. I don't really have the time or desire to check out frauds in any great detail so I appreciate the briefing.

I'm pretty much done with Seeking: The Sequel. I found what works for me. It does sorta involve a different prospective on life, but it mostly involves mundane, ordinary appreciation of day-to-day life. Existence and experience-that's really all there is for me. Boring, huh?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:42:30 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Everone
Subject: Reversed names
Message:
The above posting is from Gerry to Jim . Sorry!
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:27:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: I like you Gerry
Message:
Dear Jim,
Apparently Gerry found something Andrew wrote at a moment of lucidity. I don't know but I liked it. The quotes you posted sound like bullshit to me too. Amazing they came from the same man!
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:36:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: The con game
Message:
Robyn,

Imagine you go to Tangiers and some guy tries to scam you. You're in a market and he tries to say you have to give him so many drachma to walk through this part of the casbah. Then, some other guy comes up, yells at him in Arabic, then turns to you and says, 'oh my friend, you are so fortunate that I happened to come by now and am honest unlike some people here.' He takes you by the hand, and you feel so relieved. At last, someone you can trust.

Two days later, after this guy's gotten your complete confidence, you realize that he's just conned you bigger even than the first guy tried. (Let's say he got you to stay in some hotel, owned by a friend, who let him in to steal your stuff or something.)

Would that be so surprising? I think Cohen is much like that second guy. They all are. All these spiritaul guys are more than happy to explain the warning signs of spiritual corruption. Yes, their points might be valid, but that's just part of the deception.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:12:00 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jim
Subject: The con game
Message:
Dear Jim,
I was going to write but why can't I just take that 1st article at face value and walk off scot free and then I realized that is just what some premies say here of BM! Damn, and I'd thought I'd come so far. I'll have to think on this some more. Right now my mind is on my 16 yr old who is stretching those boundaries!
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:18:35 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: I like you Gerry
Message:
Jim,
Mr Cohen appears to be overly confident in the manner of expressing his opinion, stating them as facts, but we all do that to a certain extent and take it for granted that others know it is just our opinion, not meant to be taken as absolute truth! Unless of course they want to, and want to pay you for it,too! You could do it too, and maybe write a book and have other people challenge you every statement.
I actually found the content of Gerry's post to be very relevant to both my present and 9 yr old self's view that no one else could tell me what was the TRUTH and I may never really know myself, and that was OK!
Carol
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:26:34 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oops wrong reference
Message:
It was your article, Jim about the state of not knowing that I just wrote about. In Gerry's article I thought it was a good explanation for why premies let things slide by so long as they still feel the love.
Carol
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:39:12 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Oops is right
Message:
Carol,

So you liked that stuff about knowing and unknowing and blah, blah, blah? Well, that's your perogative, I guess. Personally, I think it offends the English language and my brain but, well, I guess that's MY perogative.

To each their own, huh? Mind you, that goes for Maharaji, too. Some people really think he's saying something. I don't. Some people really think all these sipirtual flim-flam men are saying something. I don't.

Oh well..
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:12:35 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Just the Facts, Ma'am
Message:
Jim,

Is this the line that put the bee in your bonnet or were you already aware of AC's other opinions: Most people don't realize that ego and profound realization can coexist.? Any thinking person knows Maharaji's not god, but wouldn't it be a real pisser if he was 'realized' (what ever that means) and able to transmit some power or whatever to other people?

Or was this it: Often when a person meets a teacher in whom the Absolute is manifesting to a powerful degree, their heart will open up unexpectedly. They may experience unusual insight and understanding just through mere association with this kind of extraordinary individual. ?

Hey it's fair game (and necessary) to take a critical look at someone's entire body of work, but in this instance, to comment on another article altogether can be confusing.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:25:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Just the Facts, Ma'am
Message:
Gerry,

Without knowing anything about Cohen, I would have still dismissed his article, the one you put up, as combination trite, pompous and opaque. Happens to be I'd heard of him before.

Anyway, that line about meeting a 'teacher in whom the absolute is manifesting to a powerful degree' immediately made me think, 'how do you know there's ANYONE like that?' and of course expecting that his secret answer is -- as is most definitely the case -- because he just happens to be one himself.

But really, right from the start where you've got this published interview in which this guy's posturing as someone who can actually answer such a fawning question, my back's up. Gerry, if either you or I had ever wanted to play this role of the western guru, with enough chutzpah and a little luck (or Grace?) I bet we could have pulled it off. Of course, that would require a complete disregard for honesty and humility.

I can't say it strongly enough: I DESPISE THESE NEW-AGE CON-ARTISTS

Check out his magazine -- Deepak Chopra, Ken Wilber, Dr. Laura (who's no better or worse than the rest. They're all snakes).

What Cohen's doing, apparently, is forming some sort of spiritual oligarchy instead of one-man dictatorship. A mutual admiration society of bullshitters. May they all walk the path of the late Gramd master Ramtha. May they all have nervous breakdowns like Elizabeth Clare-Prophet.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:29:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Brian, I tried that time
Message:
I did. I wonder if it made a difference that I put codes in reverse order again. Anyway, sorry.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:36:01 (EST)
From: da forum elves
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Brian, I tried that time
Message:
You forgot to put your 'greater than' sign after the /b. Thus it read 'less than' /b 'less than'/h1 'greater than'. Got that? Doesn't work.

Anyway, it's fixed now.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:37:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: da forum elves
Subject: thanks
Message:
thanks
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:17:42 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Alas, paradise lost
Message:
Gerry, if either you or I had ever wanted to play this role of the western guru, with enough chutzpah and a little luck (or Grace?) I bet we could have pulled it off.

About twenty years ago my friend Bob and I had had this very plan worked out. Since eastern thought was still predominant in 'spiritual circle' He was going to be the Great Swami Shri Bobananda. Since he wasn't 'the sharpest crayon in the box' ( I love that expression) the hook was he was going to be the silent guru. That way he couldn't fuck up too bad. Woulda worked too, until someone pointed out the fumes arising from Bobananda were less like a holy temple and more like the Rolling Rock brewery.

Ok, I'll spot you Cohen, Cheepshot Sheetrock, don't know Wilbur, but
DR.LAURA IS SACROSANCT

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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:00:03 (EST)
From: Unpenetant premie wannabe
Email: None
To: Jim you electronic bully
Subject: wimp snake in the grass
Message:
Jim,

Now that I've got your attention, do think there is any sense in seeking out any thing beyond what our rational minds can know? Is there any reason to even attempt to understand things like life after death, altered states of consciousness, psychic phenomena, ufos and the like?

I was very reactionary for over twenty years after my experience with M. I couldn't stand ANYTHING that smacked of spirituality in any form. Any more, I don't know. I became less sure of that belief system and more curious to explore the 'transcendent' unusual and just plain weird.

I have found out that MOST of what one finds out there is snake oil spoon fed to the gullible (which I have been myself, for sure) by people I call 'Freedom Peddlars' But I'm willing to maintain an open mind on the subject(s) sans the charlatans. Just wondering what your take was.

Gerry
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:22:37 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: Just the Facts, Ma'am
Message:
Dear Gerry,
That was a wonderful post, will be included in the archive work I'm doing, when I get there, if I have anything to say about it.
The minute anybody allows themselves to tolerate corruption they become a part of it.
But this quote about sums it up for me! Thanks.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:54:13 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Just the Facts.
Message:
I totally agree with this;

A: 'Ultimately the guru and your knowing of truth should be one and the same. There shouldn't be any difference. If there is, there's something wrong. That means there is either something wrong in your idea of what the truth is and your experience of what the truth is or there's some defect in the guru. Ideally they should be perfectly synonymous.'

This is the real test of one's own power and authenticity and that of the guru.
Hence my journey ......but this is easier said than done.
And this 'test' should apply equally to premies and ex-premies.
Ex-premies should not be trusted anymore than premies when it comes to 'knowing of the truth' for ultimately it is ONE'S OWN
experience and understanding that needs to make an informed judgement.
Keith
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:46:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Relax, Keith
Message:
Keith,

Don't you worry about any ex's telling you what the 'truth' is. None of us is trying to bypass reason and persuasion here. No one's arguing from authoirty (listne to me becuase I'm me).Can't you see that?

Now you're not afraid of your own mind, are you? Of course not. So trust that your mind can screen-out bullshit and use the fucker.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:24:19 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Relax, Keith
Message:
All I want to say right now is,
Jim you make me laugh....and ....keep it up!
Your adversary and fan.
Me.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:25:49 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Brian I noticed you are posting, don't know if you around right now but I wanted to say thanks for sharing about your dope smoking. Similar to me. I once went to India and got stoned for three months every day. I didn't see one temple or one guru. Arent I a brat?
Anway I was thinking about you today during a lull in my daily activites. I thought about how you are driving a cab (are you still doing that?) I thought about how hard it is to stop using drugs. I wanted to know how you did it, but I thought, no he won't want to talk about that, that's past history.

Ialso thought about Jim for a minute (even though you're a bloody liar, Jim! - how dare you play such games - mindfucker!)
Actually I'm glad you did, because you have come off the cloud I put you on, with your funny posts. No wuv in my tummy for you, bad Jim!
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:42:47 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Brian & Jim
Subject: PS
Message:
Sorry I think I'm tired.
First this post was meant to be addressed to Brian, and Jim, not Everyone, though I guess that lapse is forgiveable.
Second, Jim I am referring to you telling that story about embezzling M and being beaten up - I'm not even going to think about WHY you did that - (are ex-premies allowed to do lila?)
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:48:22 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jude
Subject: Thanks
Message:
I once went to India and got stoned for three months every day. I didn't see one temple or one guru.

Aw, you probably saw plenty of em. You were just too stoned to notice is all :)

I thought about how you are driving a cab (are you still doing that?) I thought about how hard it is to stop using drugs. I wanted to know how you did it, but I thought, no he won't want to talk about that, that's past history.

Yes, I'm still doing that. And past history is about the only one I can talk about [snicker].

As for quitting drugs, I went through some extreme mood swings and panic attacks. The only thing that got me through it was the awareness of what was happening. I viewed myself as having held those fears inside for so long and medicating them when they asserted themselves. After I stopped medicating them (with either drugs or alchohol or both) I had to ride them out. They always passed, although the interim wasn't particularly enjoyable.

I still have mood swings at times. Many of us who were initially drawn to the idea of having a big Daddy who knew how we felt and who was personally involved in our lives (although invisibly) started out on our own as damaged people. (I was traveling around trying to figure out how to become the Messiah. Not a good sign, that...) Had we never found Maharaji we still would have had to deal with that damage, and any difficulty we might have fitting into the society we live in. After tossing him off as a fraud, the problems are still there to deal with.

I can't say that I have in any way solved those problems, but I have found that it doesn't do me any good to ignore them or pretend that they don't exist. I would go the counseling route, but I figure that I would only be paying someone to listen to me as I sorted out my own inner conflicts. I would still have to do the footwork myself. Besides, I'm cheap :)

And you're right about Jim. The man is EVIL!!!
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 09:01:29 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks
Message:
We get psychiatrists on our medical benefits here - up to a point (sigh). Money, why do people charge so much money? If you were a better cab driver, would you charge more than the other guy?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 09:50:09 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: On second thoughts
Subject: Thanks
Message:
That was a dumb way to reply to your post. Maybe a void is a place in outer space (like de nile is a river in egypt?)

Many of us who were initially drawn to the idea of having a big Daddy who knew how we felt and who was personally involved in our lives (although invisibly) started out on our own as damaged people.

What a great point. I really admire you for doing drug recovery yourself! I am not suggesting in any way it is good to 'go to a therapist' or anyone else for that matter. I might only go to mine to 'touch base'. I am getting plenty of therapy out of this Forum, to tell the truth - and it's cheaper than one-to-one therapy (and more fun!)

In fact, damn it, I really look forward to reading what the latest 'buzz' is! I am in a different time zone to many of you. Plenty for me to witness here!

I just want you to say that I like it when you join in, Brian. I guess you must be doing a hell of a lot of work behind the scenes, (gulp). I'd like to hear more from you.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:08:21 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Thanks
Message:
Hi Jude,
I am fascinated by Brian. (sorry Brian, I know that's embarrassing). Certain writing styles convey things, things not even said, I don't know.. I feel some kind of kindred spirit. Never drove a cab but had similar , what? somethings in my life.
(now that's intelligent, isn't it?) Some kind of tough but loving inside thing I don't know.
Re: counselors, I tried for years to find one. They were all awful, they didn't have a clue. Then, at one point in the 80's, I found myself hopelessly addicted (physically) to diazepam and alchohol. Don't know if anyone here ever tried to get off of diazapam, - that's xanax, valium, ativan, all those types )it's no fun at all. Makes the scene in Trainspotting look a little too real.
Anyway, after trying twice on my own, and finding myself not being able to walk, talk, see, etc. - I'd make a run for more, and that was fun in my condition. Then I sought help.. There is some kind of higher power I think. They put me in treatment and it sucked. I hate 12 step programs to this day. They are a cult in my opinion. I couldn't buy into it, still can't. But, this woman who worked there was different than the rest. She was endowed with healing energy -- not new agy jargon, but real healing energy. Truly special individual. She saved my life. I still see her once a month. They are out there, but it takes a stroke of luck or hand of God or twist of fate to find a good one.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:01:38 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Therapy and bugs
Message:
Jude, I'm getting therapy here, too! I also get it from a minister at a New Thought church I go to. (Jim would call it New Age). I tend to be able to take the things that are helpful to me out of speeches, books, the forum and even what counselors say, and not reject the whole thing if one part of the message seems to be bulls**t. If I find a bug in the salad, I remove the bug rather than throw out the salad. But, I am much more watchful for other bugs!
Carol
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:51:54 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Thanks
Message:
I thank you too for sharing your story. I'm a bit embarrassed by sharing so much of my unpleasant history. Sort of like going on Jerry Springer show where I go occasionally flipping tv channels and then get shocked into watching a little of the insanity of the raw displays and audience thrills! I really don't want to identify myself by my history or my pain anymore! I don't intend to make any more heavy disclosures so publically.

I also used drugs, mostly LSD and pot but a few times:cocaine, reds,dexedrine with Malt 45, all in my formative years from 17 to 21.(See my earlier post on Peaks for the trip that was more than a trip!) I stopped abruptly 3 weeks before I got K and was off everything for about 9-10 years, then used a little pot or alcohol again every once in awhile. Had to totally quit everything again, even a glass of wine with dinner, when my teenagers were in drug treatment programs from '92 to '96!
Carol
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:01:45 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: To Katie
Message:
Katie - answering your question about (premie) psychiatrists at programs - can't find your post now.
No, they would not speak. They would be there to help people who get sick at programs, that's my understanding. For example some people don't take their medication when they go to see M (eg manic/depressives - because they like the high), then they crash. So it's just like mental first aid stations. That's only my interpretation of what I heard. But no, no-one does satsang but M.(last I heard!)

I am going back to see my old therapist. After I came home today and read the Love's Labour Lost and then your post about your feelings, it brought my tears up too. They're there underneath all the other stuff. My heart does have it's own mind (conscience?)and it will take it's own time to understand what is happening. Nothing that is said here by me or anyone else will affect that process. I really loved Maharaji. But maybe getting rid of the student is the best thing a teacher can do?, when you are ready to let go? Betrayal as an act of enlightenment?
Anyway, just after some sad feelings surfaced tonight, my therapist returned my call and I got to speak with him.
Coincidence that I am now ready, it seems, to deal with some personal issues I put on hold for knowledge. Perhaps I thought they would just go away.

Also want to say I think it is ironic about how the others took vows. When I received knowledge I was celibate, poor and extremely obediant. And he didn't even have to ask! Yes, a good way out of having to deal with love, money and power - give it away.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:12:15 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Grieving for M
Message:
Thanks, Jude, for the information. I am glad you liked my post too.

You talked about something that sounded like you were grieving for the loss of Maharaji - that you had really loved him. This hasn't been discussed on here very much, but people have mentioned it and I think it's a real issue. I never experienced it myself because I was not very devotional, but it must be a real loss - like getting a divorce? Anyway, I bring up the topic because other people may have had the same feeling.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:18:39 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Katie and everyone
Subject: Grieving for M
Message:
I don't know where sadness ends and grieving starts.
But certainly I am pained by losing 'contact' with anyone I have 'loved'.
And this would apply too in regards to Maharaji if we part ways......or rather if I part ways with him.
But there is still a connection .....an intimacy....between truth and truth....love and love.....which lives on despite the outer drama .....the comings and goings of manifest existence.
Never-the-less , grieving is a natural phase of life and should be fully passed through, I feel.
Keith
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