Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 8 | |
From: May 15, 1998 |
To: May 23, 1998 |
Page: 1 Of: 5 |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 06:54:28 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jim and Everyone Subject: More Thinking Message: Jim I was thinking, too (at the same time you sent your 'I was thinking' post) I've been trying to formulate what I've been thinking about this Forum in terms of Maharaji, premies, ex-premies, and friends (and this could all be waffle in the wind but please reply..) 1. I think the Forum is definitely a growing 'concern' for Maharaji. I had heard, from premies by the way a few months ago, that 'someone had published the techniques on the Internet!' (mild disinterest). They didn't seem to know it was an ex-premie Forum. I'm sure that will change. 2. M said the Internet is not a place to hear about knowledge, because knowledge is for the heart, one to one, not the Internet. I wonder if he is proved wrong by how much 'heart' work goes on here. 3. He said he stopped the mahatmas giving satsang because he couldn't believe the stuff they were saying. He is the best one to give it; he has a special gift which he is grateful for. Yes but isn't it shown here how when people are sincere and reasonably well informed they can certainly muddle along. Patently 'off' viewpoints get picked up by someone, and pointed out. It does seem to be a self-regulating and healthy mechanism 4. You are right that soon it will look stranger and stranger that he is ignoring this Forum. People may notice this includes a general attitude of not being accessible or accountable 5. Therefore it appears to me he will have to do something to acknowledge the Forum 6. Will he try and shut it down/hurt it's members/make them all die/sue them (or will Elan Vital or individual premies attempt to do same - he'd have to give the nod of course) 7. If he did that would he be revealed to others as a complete fake, protecting his business empire 8. Will he start talking about the 'anti Christ' or 'fallen angels'; (Satan was once a favourite!) 9. His reach is growing, as you say (in 90 countries). He is going to try and reach the whole world with knowledge. He could become unstoppable, enslave millions (or is he the Messiah?) 10. The nazis and the Jews would then not be a bad analogy (???) 11. Even if he is a sincere, loving but misguided man, he certainly doesn't like criticism or to lose face. On the other hand as someone said ,the perfect master must have perfect compassion 12. I myself felt so absolutely thrilled to find the Forum I spent the first day printing all the 'information' material, Bob Mischler's interview and journeys before I even looked at the Forum. I knew it was so vital and important for me to read it. I want to see this to stay for others. 13. I think we should be cautious about actively attempting to spread the Forum awareness, e.g. go to programs and leaflet. I was also thinking that for myself personally I think I will try and stick to talking about 'my experience' of M and knowledge rather than saying 'M said this, and did that'. I think the first one focuses on me wanting to help myself and discuss my issues, and the other is a direct and probably slanderous attack on M., which he could perceive as threatening (not sure about this one) 14. Who knows the future but I think it is wise to Think. How can we protect the existence of our freedom of speech Forum? Do we need to? Do we need to safeguard our identities? 15. What do others think? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:57:04 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Something better than Nothing? Message: I also need to say this: I was thinking about what good came out of knowledge for me. When I was really desperate (for meaning in life) Maharaji was there. First I heard about M., then very shortly afterwards I had a very shocking experience which 'cracked my pot' - I got clinically depressed. Then I went to listen to M (as well as going to a therapist.) On hearing the words 'the water has a way of finding the thirsty and the thirsty have a way of finding the water' it felt so true, so real. I received a certain amount of succour listening to him. I don't deny that. He came across as witty, tender, interesting, larger than life. He seemed to me amazing the way he could speak so long without notes; the way his mind worked. He also seemed loving and forgiving. Maybe I really needed someone to be that for me. Maybe he did me a service in that way. Now I am moving out of his realm. I see other people still want to listen to him. Perhaps all is well and everyone should do what they want, especially with the assistance of 'testimonies' and other shared life experiences/histories if people want other opinions. It may be bad for people to be in that space of mind-denial and dependency but then again if the alternative was 'when your soul is thirsty there is no answer, only a therapist who you pay to get your mind straight/support you once a week, where would I be today? Dead? I don't know. I felt very much at the end of my road when I found M. I did get something out of listening to him, even if it was just the 'positive' attitude and the happiness that permeated at times. It's true, he was saying enjoy your life (ie be grateful for it, however humble). A non-drug way to get joyful. I don't know. It's all a bit circular. I'm glad I'm still growing. I think what I am trying to say is, perhaps every stepping-stone becomes false/unnecessary when you are ready to move on to the next one. Then it is just past history. Until then, it is very real, for you. Is this a useful way to look at it? In other words, should I be putting M down so much? I know how Jim feels/felt now, I want to confront him in person and have it out with him. It was never a personal relationship, but I did feel that he loved ME, and all of us. I must read the Guru Papers. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:08:46 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Jude Subject: Something better than Nothing? Message: Dear Jude, 'On hearing the words 'the water has a way of finding the thirsty and the thirsty have a way of finding the water' it felt so true, so real.' Yes I too can clearly remember the sense of relief/familiarity upon hearing someone 'speaking directly to my heart'. This was, in fact, the lynch-pin, the turning-point, the hook and the ultimate sales pitch which got me. This guy is talking about a universal truth which resonates through us all. This seems to be where the whole guru/devotee relationship springs from. I mean that while we might get three separate quotes for double-glazing, we mostly end up buying from the guy that we 'feel good' about. Then we come to the point where I entered the forum. 'What about the knowledge?' I too would like to think that I have gained something from practising the techniques of meditation and would like to continue to do so. 'In other words, should I be putting M down so much?' Having spent such a large proportion of my life (54% approx) promoting and defending or attempting to deflect criticism from Maharaji I have to ask myself where my loyalty has got me? While other people got on with their lives, developed careers, put something aside for the future I was standing in some provincial market town strumming The Lord of the Universe on a second-hand guitar with my metaphorical trousers around my metaphorical ankles. The things that I did or failed to do for and on behalf of Maharaj will be with me for the rest of my life. If I failed to use my judgement it was because that is precisely what I was told to do, to stop thinking, trust Maharaji. I was trying to talk to my wife about this last night. She was never a premie but did TM and is something of a church goer. Her view is that she would never have been conned by the devotee trip, easy for her to say huh! So she dosn't have any experience of that bittersweet longing, that feeling of being so thirsty you could drink the oceans dry or the pain of loving for love's sake. The knowledge that DLM imparts to those who ask is OK as far as it goes. Pretty nifty meditation techniques etc...but the idea of Maharaji as a personal saviour, as Lord, as someone or something who can fulfill your longing for truth is patently flawed. The messages on this forum are testimony to that. Sorry to ramble on so much at the moment but I'm a bit raw right now. Thanks for listening. Richard PS Still can't get the hang of HTML Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:22:24 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Richard Subject: Something better than Nothing? Message: Richard thanks so much for your reply. It is such a big subject that it seems a good idea to speak from personal experience when it gets a bit too large for me to understand. I relate to what you said about life's normal needs. I know premies who just live for the next time they can see him. I never went to see him overseas but I ran up my humble credit card just to see him in my own country. And there's a lot more about that whole subject. As for the HTML, just do a lesser than symbol, a lower case i and then a greater than symbol, before the text you want to italicize. At the conclusion of your fancy bit, put lesser than symbol, backslash, i, greater than symbol. so: < i > and < / i > but do not leave spaces between the symbol and the i as I have done. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:43:04 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Richard Subject: On second thoughts Message: On second thoughts, Richard I can't leave my reply at that. While I was writing that post, a part of me knew this was more than a stepping stone. Like you said, you gave so much of your life, and made serious vows. It's not the sort of thing you just leave so easily. It's incredibly insidious.If I hadn't found this Forum I would have been on a long road to disillusionment and self-doubt because there is no easy way to refute anything he says, and your own feelings of doubt don't seem to stand up. It seems that once you've swallowed that bait, that premise, that he could be the one in a dark world to lead us to the light, or whatever your version was, it is almost impossible to question that original belief. I spent many years not taking care of myself and not planning for the future. I have now recently spent another chunk of my life doing same. I know other long-time premies who are still renting in their 40's. I think my 12 year old daughter will own her own home before I do. Hope she builds a granny flat for me! (ha ha) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 17:41:07 (EST)
From: charles Email: dewinter@montrose.net To: Jude Subject: Something better than Nothing? Message: Experiencing(what a word) a glimmer of fear over not being adequately articulate ('...can't be put in words.) I, after all these years of being altogether out of touch with what I still call Divine Light Mission am looking again in a rather emotionally charged state for premies or ex-premies or ... I suppose my emotional state could be explained with an appeal to circumstances both socio-cultural and psychological - these thoughts have crossed my MIND - but I have a time of it convincing myself of the truth of that. I was always one of the economically disadvantaged and that has not changed. I am not looking for social approval or status. Anyway, back to the at hand: Nothing I have gone through has allowed or inspmatter ired me to deny or minimize what I experienced. Guru Maharaj Ji said he could show me god and that is what he did. It could be called Nothing, or Pratyahara, or Dharma-Kaya or Samadhi or Nirbikalpa Samadhi, or Satori, or ... Well, to come up to the present I am touched again right out of the blue. I have not seen or heard from a premie or an ex-premie for years. The last time I attended a meeting or program was at least ten years ago. I know there is an ex-premie in this town because I found a tape of One Foundation in the Free Box. It sat around for a month or two and now it's just about all I listen to. I just wanted to get in touch with a premie or even an ex-premie. I didn't go away mad I just wandered away. I am not reviewing this and know it doesn't exactly flow, but here it is. Oh, my modem is not hooked up at the moment so ... I'm typing this in the Steaming Bean coffee shop. Thanks, Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 19:09:04 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: charles Subject: Charles Message: Dear Charles, Hope you get back to the Steaming Bean or are still there. Have you been meditating all this time? Do you still want to. Lots of us ex's still do, some more than others. Now it is just how we want to, no one is telling us this is the way, no other. We can be 'in our minds' and it feels good to question, seek, research, discuss and conclude, understand, or continue questioning. It is all up to us. We have each other for support but not to coerce. Please use the forum to help sort things out. We have differing views about all things including BM, god, spirituality and day to day stuff. Welcome. Sit down with a cup of coffee and stay awhile. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 21:38:43 (EST)
From: charles Email: dewinter@montrose.net To: Robyn Subject: S,S,&S. Message: Let's see: I stopped meditating years ago. I started again only recently after an especially rocky 'love' affair. (Years ago being in satsang saved me from the excruciating pain of a failed marriage) I began by reading translations and commentaries on Buddhism. This is a method I had used from time to time to calm or center or give myself some perspective on the vagaries of life. One thing led to another and soon I was reading accounts of female Christian saints compiled by Carol Flinders - 'Enduring Grace' - then I was actually reading The Dark Night of the Soul - John of the Cross, and Illusion's Game - Chogyam Trungpa, Tales of the Hasidim - Martin Buber, etc. In the midst of that I began to meditate again. I even made myself a barogan, started sleeping on a thin mat, and returned to strict vegetarianism - the real saintly life according to charles and all the religious books I had read. Well, I soon slid out of that into my usual list of excesses. Cure complete, love affair utterly expunged, I Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 05:12:19 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: charles Subject: Usual list of excesses... Message: Dear Charles, yours was the first post that I read today. This alternating between the ascetic lifestyle and a worldly one sounds like a very familiar place to me. Not just materially but also emotionally. Have you ever read Narziss and Goldmund by Herman Hesse? Look forward to the rest of you message. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:13:37 (EST)
From: charles Email: dewinter@montrose.net To: Richard Subject: Usual list of excesses... Message: Yes, Richard, I did read Narziss und Goldmund years ago and at your mention of it I began to recall the contrast between the sybarite and the ascetic portrayed therein, but my memory is far from perfect or complete. I actually began this whole trip when I was 19, a soldier in the american army, and in the library of an airforce post on the german border. ( I am ignoring all of the capitalizations supposedly due others as a matter of respect or formality - ho hum) I was looking through the stacks for a book that would entertain me when I pulled out Zen Flesh, Zen Bones and shortly thereafter slipped it back into its place while saying to myself that what I found therein was too hard, not for me, and that I hereby rejected the whole thing. That was like trying to '...not think about monkeys.' I was a goner. Years later I was sitting in satsang at the behest of a real Goldmund. (He started his little program on my then wife, Karen) I fully expected this satsang to be a shallow bit of equivocating nonsense. I wasn't as smart as I thought. I took it hook, line, and sinker. And here I am after 35 years. Now I about saying that I thank you, Richard, and you Robyn, and you all of you for being here. I am touched to tears and so glad I found you. I suppose that is just a wee bit maudlin and it's true. Thank you for responding to my ramblings. I will be back this evening. Oh, as for being mistreated by guru, look at the story of Milarepa and his guru Marpa. Me and Guru Maharaj Ji? I have cursed, sneered, and raged at him as a matter of course now for years when he did not provide for me or clear the path for me or etc. None of it seems to have mattered. I mean, ho hum. Thank you, Charles. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:55:24 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: charles Subject: Usual list of excesses... Message: Dear Charles, Richard, and all, Maybe all of us who don't have our own computer could get one together and ship it around, one month each! It is so good to touch the heart and soul of the men on the forum, most men, in my experience do not expose that part of themselves very often. I am not glad that you have pain that you have to deal with but am glad to be a part of your 'ranting' and emotional expressions and hopefully healing! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:41:27 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Usual list of excesses... Message: I experience depression as the sickness from which I want to be healed. It wasn't awful, it was just awful. I didn't want to do anything. I still have a rather short energy span, but I am much better than I have been for months. This is a wonderful boost for me. I guess isolation can bring on depression and notwithstanding my community involvement and work as an amateur actor I still felt isolated because I could not talk to anyone about feeling guilty that I had not kept my VOWS (they already thought I was a looney and that would have cinched it) or that I was one of those cultists and that I furthermore still believed in it, that it was what really ran my life. Here I feel at home. Thankyou. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:11:19 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: charles Subject: Usual list of excesses... Message: Dear Charles, Here it is after 2pm and I still have to go to lunch to run errands really. My daughter is a wonderful actor. Where are you if you don't mind my asking, don't worry if you don't want to say, just curious. Can you tell I am a talker also. My friends think I'm looney also but they find it endearning, thank god. I am becoming very isolated since working 2 jobs since Jan. I HATE that! I'll be back, have to get the dogs and cats food or there'll be a rebellion when I get home! Glad you feel at home here, me too! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:50:06 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Usual list of excesses... Message: I live in Telluride, CO. It's a ski resort. Thus I am surrounded by people who have supposedly got it made. I house sit in places that are stellar examples of conspicuous excess. And that last is something of an answer to the economic issues. I enjoy these places for a while, but I am not impressed. I too have to get back to work. I live in a one bedroom apt. in subsidised housing that is incidentally a ski in - ski out location. And again, ho hum. I lay carpet and vinyl and do a little remodeling to pay the rent. This little chit chat here is a lot more important to me than any hundred ski resorts. Thanks again. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:06:59 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: charles Subject: Colorado off topic Message: Hi Charles. My husband and I lived in Fort Collins (CO) for a while a few years back. We did a lot of travelling in Colorado and drove thru Telluride once on our way somewhere else. It looked like it had once been a really nice town, but was now very stratified between rich (the people who use it as a resort) and poor (the people who serve the other people). I found Jackson (Wyoming), Santa Fe, and Taos to be the same way, which was a big disappointment to me. Just some more chit-chat! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:46:03 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: charles Subject: Usual list of excesses... Message: Dear Charles, How do you get in and out of your apartment when there is no snow? Why do you always say ho hum I can't quite pin it down but it sounds like you don't value yourself or something. I hope I am wrong and have realized since writing here that the written word can send many wrong messages. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 11:07:33 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: charles Subject: Usual list of excesses... Message: Dear Charles, I hear what you are saying. I have only been posting here for a short while myself. It's good to hear from you. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:49:00 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: charles Subject: S,S,&S. Message: Dear Charles, I just recently found out, here that premies don't have to be vegitarians anymore and yesterday I found out no more baragans, the whole thing is getting so much more like herding mindless cattle. I just don't see what the draw is now except that VP's account of the aspirant video and Judes real experience with these videos is that the ones they show before you get knowledge are very sweet and loving and without ever knowing that we use to actually TALK to each other about our experiences... I guess it might seem nice, the videos I mean. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 11:32:46 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Robyn Subject: TRUTH???????????? Message: Dear Robyn, So we now discover that vegitarianism is a waste of time too? So whatever happened to that constant, absolute and completely non-negotiable TRUTH that I was looking for and, by the way, was told that I had found? Now I'm really pissed! Is Maharaji now the chairman and CEO of Bhodisatvas 'R Us. Is he going to keep backing-off the hard-stuff in this all out war for audience share. Next we get the Readers Digest condensed version of spiritual enlightenment where every single person in the whole wide world wakes up one morning to receive a letter (Dear Householder) informing them that their search for TRUTH is completed, they are now a premie (like it or not) and the only way to avoid paying their subscription (automatic debit) is to send back the enclosed soiled sock (darshan by post) by return mail. I'm speechless (not) Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:38:32 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Richard Subject: TRUTH???????????? Message: Dear Richard, The more I hear about what Maharaji does and doesn't do now, in relation to being a master and having devotees, it's clear that he has become very conservative and just wants to hold onto as much of the trip he can to finance his luxurious lifestyle. As Robyn was saying, no more vegetarianism, no more bharagans. He also doesn't allow the premies to give satsang anymore, they just sit and mindlessly (oh, yeah) watch videos of him rambling his simplistic platitudes. Apparently he thinks his followers are too stupid and confused to talk about their own experiences. The banning of satsang was a big surprise to me, because that was a significant part of my interest in being a premie -- actually hearing the experiences of other premies. Oh, yeah, and no more ashrams, initiators, or mahatmas either. Apparently M reveals the meditations techniques himself, hence very few people receive knowledge anymore, I think about 366 did in North America all last year. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:38:08 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Richard Subject: TRUTH???????????? Message: Dear Richard, Love that dirty sock reference. Some may think it's old tofu! It's all getting very controlled, as far as videos and events (I liked the festival felling much better) for aspirants or premies, very compartmentalized, no one is trusted to speak of their own experience! On the other hand there is no feeling of community, from what I've read here, just live your own life, no more changing your life style to follow the master just send money and watch videos! CaCa! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:50:10 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Richard Subject: TRUTH???????????? Message: I am down to leaving that TRUTH bit alone while I roll around on the floor over dirty socks and bodhisattvas. Thanks. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:21:43 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Robyn Subject: er, s,s,&m. Message: not that s&m. Now I am not maudlin at all unless this jumping up and down, laughing, and squirming is maudlin. I love you. What a kick! I really don't always use my new baragan, and vegetarianism is as much a political as a spiritual discipline. One of the multitudinous doctrines of wicca is to be vegetarian. I have been experimenting. All I read about the relationship to the guru before I was initiated and since has made it clear that the relationship was not a comfy one. I guess Elan Vital has decided to follow the more commonly trod path of consumerism. The last time I attended satsang it was in a hotel conference room with some be-suited yuppie up front and there were a lot of Volvos and beamers in the parking lot. For me it was pablum. Maybe that was why I never went back. I'm very happy I am talking with you. I still think/believe guru maharaj ji is guru to me. I didn't care about the jet planes and sports cars in the 70's and I don't care about the consumerism now except that it sure is boring. Well, I go on as you know by now. Thank you so much. Charles Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:05:49 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: charles Subject: er, s,s,&m. Message: Dear Charles, I wondered if that was just a typo or something going over my head, AGAIN! I also believe vegitarianism is more than a spiritual practice. Eating meat is just easier on a day to day basis, which I haven't done for years but just throw some hunk of meat in the oven and when it is burt like charcoal it must be done! When I first started eating meat after 8 years I had to put my hands in bread bags because I couldn't stand touching it raw. Hot dogs, which are gross anyway but I had them and boiled them for a 1/2 hour, sliced them and squeezed the juice out in paper towels, did I just say cooking meat was easy... I've seen that wicca a few times here, what is that? I just don't know how so many of you read so many things. I am envious. Maybe when my daughter is in college and I have just one job. As far as thinking of M as your guru, of course that is your hearts choice and why would you care if he is rich if you feel love for him but does it matter to you that he got those things from the sweat and hard work of premies who lived in terrible conditions with meger food, who left their families because M wanted them to come and get a plan ready. What about all the letters gone unanswered from troubled, hurting, devoted premies. He has hurt many people on his road to the top. You said the yuppies at your last sat sang turned you off, why doesn't M's gold toliet seat, fleet of luxury cars, planes, homes, premie servants working for nothing, do the same? And why doesn't he trust anyone, premies, mahatmas to help spread this K? Seems to controlling to me. Just asking. I enjoy 'talking' to you also Charles, hope this doesn't make you rethink all those glowing things you said about me. That really made me feel good. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:21:36 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: Robyn Subject: conspicuous excess Message: I mentioned the relationship between Marpa and Milarepa as an example of the guru really mistreating the disciple and that is not the only one of its kind. Reading is, for me, an addiction. I mean it interferes with other important areas of my life. Wicca is the way of the witch. It means either to bend or to be wise and seems to imply an ability to unscientifically influence reality. I would say that it works. I do not approve of people mistreating others. I do not approve of excess wealth in anyone's hands. And, of course, I have had a lot of people ignore me when I truly needed their help. I don't know what Maharaj Ji is up to with gold toilet seats, etc. I have no desire for such things. It's what he does or is at this moment doing for me that matters to me. I want something better than state of the art hot tubs or roller rink sized living rooms. I enjoy your company. I feel good being able to talk to you and read your words. When Guru Maharaj Ji is being good to me and he hasn't been for quite a few years now, as far as I can tell, then I am more fun to be around. I don't know what is going on. I do know that I am genuinely happy to be able to talk to you and to Richard and everyone else. Oh, by the way, I gave up reading for years because I thought it was an inferior pursuit when I had to practice knowledge and I was being told that all of my thinking would just make it harder for me. God, I have so much to tell you about what has gone on. I have a daughter, just graduating from highschool, and a son who is on his own. I have to get back to work before I am shuffling my feet and apologizing again for not getting the job done on time. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:01:50 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: charles Subject: conspicuous excess Message: Dear Charles, Hope you get your job done and can relax and enjoy the forum. I don't have a home computer so you'll only see me here before Tues. if I, 1. am going through withdrawal(I have keys to both jobs) or 2. If I do go to my job at the college to store up some hours for when my niece comes to visit in July. I also have 2 children, girls, one on her own and one just finishing 10th grade. I don't know if I told you but I live in rural PA and am more than happy the snow is gone for a few months! I love reading but it seems that the only real time I have to read is waiting for Jade when I go pick her up from school or at a doctor's office which is not conducive for anything to long or in depth. I am reading a book by a medical doctor right now about the wisdom of using a combination of many different medical/healing methods. He has started a clinic with a number of doctors, chiropractors, herbalists and on and on. They all work with each patient and each other to give every person the best possible treatment for a cure not to just get them on medicine to mask the symptoms. Fits right into my way of thinking. Which brings me to wicca, that sounds like my life also. I bet it was Carol who mentioned it, eh Carol? There is plenty of time to tell your story. I like the forum for many reasons but one is because we don't have to be here at the same time to communicate with each other. Eventually you'll probably even get into the archives. If you say it here brother it is written in stone forever! It is good and helps to get to 'know' some of us who write here. It is just hard sometimes because you can't respond but you can always start a thread if something really catches you. 'See' you soon, enjoy your process of acclimation! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 19:47:08 (EST)
From: Charles Email: None To: Robyn Subject: life in the country Message: You sure are considerate. I expected to get reamed good over my little tantrum about not caring as long as GMJ was good to me. Almost as soon as I had finished it I began to notice how much it sounded like the insane words of an abused spouse who just can't seem to give up getting his or her ass kicked as long as the koo koo comes up with a few heartfelt apologies or cuddles once in a while. The thing is I do care how someone I know treats others and I don't want to be out of control of myself when it comes to that. I don't want to be a follower. I just swallowed the party line and presumed then (Portland, 1971, Mahatma Fakiranand), as I guess I did just yesterday or the day before, that my longing, my genuine desire had nothing to do with what I was going through. Unfortunately the stories of the adepts are not often very rosey ones and I wanted help in the form of a boost or protection or both. The snow is only gone here in town. The mountains are still white and will be until the end of June. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 17:17:43 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: charles Subject: conspicuous excess Message: Dear charles, I hope you continue to talk here and read. It certainly has helped me very significantly. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:36:39 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: charles Subject: conspicuous excess Message: I have been poor and had money. Money cannot help you enjoy a conversation. Welcome to the forum. VP P.S. Don't drop any famous names from Telluride or you'll get razzed...:) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 17:03:05 (EST)
From: charles Email: None To: VP Subject: conspicuous excess Message: There are no famous names in Telluride only infamous ones. Refer to the Smuggler's Blues. But there is an ex-premie here somewhere. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 19:56:47 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Jude Subject: Something better than Nothing? Message: Hi Jude, Just wanted to acknowledge your great posts. I didn't know I was clinically depressed until 12 years after I received knowledge. During those years, I attempted to practice to relieve my pain. I even consulted with John Horton about my difficulty, and he said the problem was that I wasn't devoted enough. I think what I am trying to say is, perhaps every stepping-stone becomes false/unnecessary when you are ready to move on to the next one. Then it is just past history. Until then, it is very real, for you. Is this a useful way to look at it? This describes my experiences too. When I find something that works for awhile, I throw myself into it until it doesn't work anymore. The path of Tapasaya, I believe it's called --'straightening by fire.' Thanks, Jude eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 04:03:54 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jude Subject: Something better than Nothing? Message: You said,'I think what I am trying to say is, perhaps every stepping-stone becomes false/unnecessary when you are ready to move on to the next one. Then it is just past history. Until then, it is very real, for you. Is this a useful way to look at it?' I think this is a really useful way to look at it! And I also felt like you that I needed to believe in K&M when I first was involved. It helped get me out of a self-destructive phase. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 18:47:31 (EST)
From: Pajama man Email: None To: Jude Subject: More Thinking Message: 1) I don't know what M thinks. I don't care either. 2) Yes, a lot of work goes on here. 3) It is hard to control what others say and do. If you are into control, this is a problem. 4) It all looks strange. 5) A real master would. 6) A real master wouldn't. 7) He's done plenty of eye-openers in the past, but it doesn't matter to the devoted. 8) Don't know about that. 9) He's said that for 25 years. I'll believe it when I see it. 10)??? 11)He's full of contradictions. 12)I did the same thing. 13)I seriously doubt that M is threatened by me. I do think it is both important to talk about our experiences and his actions. 14)I have to safeguard mine, but not because I am afraid. I don't know your situation. 15)That's it in a nutshell. Have a good one, Jude. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 21:42:29 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jude Subject: More Thinking Message: Don't presume that Maharaji is so powerful. He's already shown in the past that he has his limits. What he realises, I'm sure, is that if he tries to expand, then so also will his shadow. That is an unavoidable and even scientific fact. He must know this. If Maharaji was God then he would not have any problems. But a mere man trying to make people believe that he is God is doomed to having his own shadow looming ever larger, the more he tries to grow. Where is his shadow? His ex-followers are his shadow. There are too many of them to try to stop them talking, and talk they will. There are more ex-premies than there are premies. Maharaji sowed the seeds of his own present problems when he disbanded his premie kingdom in 1983, after telling all the premies that he was the Lord who we must surrender to. He has set in motion circumastances that are beyond his control now. Maharaji once said that he was going to make the Ramayana look like 'Noddy'. (Noddy is a children's story book). He was a fool to sack his Indian Mahatmas because they were the ones who were responsible for bringing the knowledge to the west. Now he is retreat, back to the east. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:55:48 (EST)
From: Charles Email: None To: Jude Subject: More Thinking Message: As for this forum and whether it poses some threat to GMJ, I guess that is not for me a matter of real concern. I am very interested in staying in conversation with all of you. I think this is powerful and meant to be; that is, as it used to be said, our birthright. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 22:51:46 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Everyone Subject: Something to help everyone Message: Maharaji critisisms aside, I used to know a lot of fine people in the seventies and early eighties who were premies, like myself. Now many of them I would like to get in contact with again but alas, there is no medium for this. I have a germ of an idea which would bring together old friends, whether they be ex-premies or current premies. Old friendship ties go beyond such things. A publication could be printed which contains names and phone numbers or box numbers (to keep it confidential) of people who are seeking their old buddys. A little advert could be put with each name saying something like; David so-and-so, used to live in Manchester & Dulwich, would like to meet up with so-and-so or anyone else who remembers me etc. Now this publication could be national, i.e. one for Britain, one for America, one for France and so on. There would be no stipulation about whether people are practising premies or not. The problem is, how could such a publication be circulated? For sure it would be a very popular thing. Perhaps it could be distributed at programs. I certainly have the means to get something like this published here in England. Would Elan Vital be sympathetic to such a publication being sold (for a nominal fee) at programs? Naturally, they would get their commission. Am I completely off the wall here or does anyone think it's a good idea? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 01:43:16 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Sir David Subject: Something to help everyone Message: Sir David, I think that is a great idea. I was hoping that I would find some of my old friends on this site, but no one I know has posted yet. They are either still premies, or too poor to own a computer or maybe just not curious enough to find this site. I really would love to hear from some of them; I mean, sheesh, I hear from friends in elementary school on Okinawa, but none of the people I knew as a premie! I'm all for this publication! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 01:47:20 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Mickey and David Subject: In Search Of Message: I'm hoping, that when Brian has time (e.g. when there are no more problems with the forum, and when there is nothing urgent pending on the rest of the site) that he will be able to put an 'In Search Of' feature on the ex-premie site. I also think it would be a good idea - maybe easier to put it here than in a publication. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 06:05:41 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Katie Subject: In Search Of Message: Sir David wrote: Would Elan Vital be sympathetic to such a publication being sold (for a nominal fee) at programs? Naturally, they would get their commission. I think when Maharaji says 'Keep in touch', he means with him. Still I have to chuckle about the idea of the Ex-Premie.Org booth at events. We could sell cups that USED to have Maharaji's picture on them! Maybe offer an assortment of pictures that we can remove. Then, Jim could embezzle EV's portion of the take. Katie wrote: I'm hoping that Brian ... will put an 'In Search Of' feature on the site. I told Michelle that I would. Also said I'd do it within a couple of days. That was a couple of days ago, so I guess I'd better. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:18:16 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Brian Subject: In Search Of Message: Dear Brian, Thanks, I didn't think EV would let us hand out anything for free, never mind for a fee and I like the idea of a spot on this site but David was trying to contact people that may not be able to access this site for lack of equip. or significant curiosity to find it. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:30:24 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Robyn Subject: In Search Of Message: David was trying to contact people that may not be able to access this site for lack of equip. or significant curiosity to find it. Maharaji has removed the structures that used to be able to serve that purpose (as well as allow TRUE participation for premies). Ashrams, premie satsang, and websites have all fallen away under his Divine Gagya. Premie-to-premie communication is pretty low on his list of priorities. His lifestyle is pretty high on that list. I understand what David meant, but there is no way for such a list of 'seekers' to even be compiled in the first place. Premies are kept too busy keeping in touch with Maharaji to be able to keep in touch with each other, and EV spends contributions on Maharaji's needs - not on premies' needs. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:34:50 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Brian Subject: In Search Of Message: Dear Brian, I know, it s*^ks but, for me anyway, I can't remember any last names anyway. I will do better putting my info on the site in hopes people I knew will remember me! I'm pretty unforgettable! Ha! It's those blonde roots again! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 21:09:07 (EST)
From: Sir David of Cheddar Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Robyn Subject: In Search Of Message: In America you are more quick to get online and the rest of the world is still trying to catch up. However, even in America the vast majority are not hooked up to the Internet. It may be another ten years before Internet access is as commonplace as owning a video player. When such a time comes then it will be quite easy to contact old friends on the net. At present though, in Britain there are very few premies or ex-premies on the net. I am pretty disgusted with the Elan Vital organisation. Many years ago I wrote to them asking about the availability of contacting other premies who I used to know in ashrams and similar situations. They did not even reply to my letter. The organisation is inhuman. Perhaps that reflects its founder. To have brought a lot of young people together in their twenties, their formative years, and then created a culture for them, only to completely disband it in the early eighties has had a very bad effect on some people. And yet those people are the silent ones, they are the lonely ones who wonder what the hell happened to them all those years ago. Just before the whole trip filded in 1983 I remember talking to quite a few people who were very lonely and bereft because they had been 'squeezed' by Maharaji and had given up all relationships and lived an isolated existence. I was one of such people. I have never really gotten over all of that; throwing away deep friendships and relationships for Maharaji, only to be left completely alone by 1984. I became very disillusioned and fell into drug addiction and other self destructive behaviour and it took me years to pull myself out and try to recover my shattered life. It is only now that Ican look back and realise what had happened to me. So many others are in the same boat. My heart goes out to them, wherever they are. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 07:08:32 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Sir David of Cheddar Subject: In Search Of Message: Dear Sir David, It may be another ten years before Internet access is as commonplace as owning a video player. How right you are. My own connection is work-based and I shall be losing it come the Autumn. To think that I have had this link for nearly four years and only now.... I also think that this kind of communication is particularly suited to the task in hand..I realise that some of you know each other in real life but I feel especially comfortable with confiding in you electronically. It is not without emotion, because I have sat here typing with tears pouring down my face, while if it were a physical encounter group I very much doubt that I would have had the courage to take part. In addition it allows each of us, should we wish, to assume a personae from behind which we can peep and which we can allow to gradually dissolve as our confidence grows. Full respect to the originators and all participants. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:27:57 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Richard Subject: In Search Of Message: Dear Richard, I have also cried while typing posts, this is a great place to work stuff out. A suggestion, I don't even know if you are in the US but I think you can use a computer at a library to access the net. They have it here in RURAL PA so I think it must be EVERYWHERE! I know it isn't the same but it is something. I only have work computers to use also and the one I use most will be ending also, in August. I am extatic about that for many reasons but will miss having the hours of access that I do now. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:43:17 (EST)
From: R.T. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Ex-Premie.Org Business Cards Message: Dear Agents of Change! Your efforts may indeed reshape Rawat, Inc. for the 21st Century. Here is an idea. Your Mission, should you decide to accept it: Take a few words or sentences from the start-up web page and a printout of the web page logo to a local printer. Print 500-1000 business cards. Double sided is best. Cost you: $25-45.00. Do a professional job. Go to a Program and leave them all over like little easter eggs. Leave them in the bathrooms, eating area, sales area, windshields. Then sit back and allow yourself to chuckle, for you will perhaps make the Bible quote come true: Isiah ( Ch 13?) ' For the earth shall be filled with the Knowledge of God as the waters cover the earth' -- (: Sorry - no bible here at work :) There's no business like Know business! JUST SAY KNOW ! RT Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:49:38 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: R.T. Subject: Ex-Premie.Org Business Cards Message: And if you don't like what we say, you tell us what you think really happened. M, we come to liberate you from your empty, gilded cage (arrogant statement, I confess) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:01:11 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: R.T. Subject: Ex-Premie.Org Business Cards Message: It's Isaiah 11:9b, but you were pretty darn close! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:44:15 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: R.T. Subject: Ex-Premie.Org Business Cards Message: Not a bad idea, but be careful. If you get caught you might find Maxwell and his hammer coming after you and or maybe you get a pie in your face. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 19:49:05 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: R.T. Subject: Ex-Premie.Org Business Cards Message: I think it's a brilliant idea. Premies will read anything about BM they can get their hands on. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 22:17:04 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle Email: None To: everyone Subject: Be careful! Message: Be really careful! I read about that pilot guy who crashed and died right after he said some true things about M. Anything is possible, why we could even start a war! How many ex-premies are there anyway? Maybe we could hold a convention right down the hall from M's. I was wondering. If there are lots of premies in India (30,000?) and there are millions of people in India, I wonder what all the other religions think of M. Do they think he is a Cult? Do they think all the followers of M are crazy? I do not know enough about the religions in India, maybe they are all sort of like M's group. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 00:48:44 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Memphis Belle Subject: Be careful! Message: Be really careful! I read about that pilot guy who crashed and died right after he said some true things about M. Could you please explain this a bit further? Thanks Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 06:17:59 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jude Subject: Be careful! Message: Belle's referring to having read the Bob Mishler interview on the site. Bob died in a plane crash, although he wasn't the pilot. Not happy about him being referred to as that pilot guy. Means I'm not only an ex-premie, but an OLD ex-premie. Maybe I oughta sign my posts OXP... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 06:58:51 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Brian Subject: Be careful! Message: How old are you or just an old soul? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:19:32 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jude Subject: Be REALLY Careful! Message: How old are you or just an old soul? I'm YEARS younger than that decrepid old Katie! She'll deny it, of course. But don't believe her. She's lying... Or else the years have just taken their toll on the old gal... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:01:33 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Brian Subject: Be REALLY Careful! Message: By the way I lied about my age, I'm really only 10. I have led a very busy and action-packed life (actually I used a zip file to get more experiences in in a shorter time) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:41:13 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Jude Subject: Be REALLY Careful! Message: Okay you guys, quit chit-chatting and get back to what you were discussing here. Jude, who were you referring to who died in a plane crash? Bob Mishler, from what I heard, died, along with his eight-months pregnant wife Eileen, in a helicopter crash somewhere in the Caribbean shortly after leaving BM and starting to talk. I had also heard he might have been thinking about publishing a book, but am not sure about that. I remember when I heard about this thinking his death sounded really fishy, but this is of course total speculation. Does anyone know any more about the circumstances surrounding Bob Mishler's death and what his plans were after leaving DLM? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:39:13 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Joy Subject: Mishler crash Message: What I got from John Hand was that Bob and his wife and the pilot died in the crash of a 4-seater airplane. They were being flown from St. Bartholomews Island to get medical care for Bob on nearby St. Martins Island. This happened around 1982. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 20:59:21 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: None To: Brian Subject: Mishler crash Message: You're a couple of years out on the date, I think, Brian. More like 1980. The first time I heard about Mishler was just after he died. I remember some veteran premie making a joke about The Lord's Vengeance within earshot of a brand-new premie. The latter split and never came back. (The veteran premie cracking the gag was the same fellow responsible for the embarrasing Arti candle incident I reported a couple of months back!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 22:37:22 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: R.T. Subject: Ex-Premie.Org Business Cards Message: R.T., Rats! You gave away our idea! Now they will be on the lookout...;-) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:11:57 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Everyone Subject: for Anon--urgent Message: Anon: I am at the LOC and have just submitted an order for the Anandpur book. Since it is about 700 pages what is it, exactly, that I should be looking for again? I will have to copy the pages. Will check back in about an hour. Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:30:41 (EST)
From: Scott T Email: stalking@freewheeling.com To: Anon Subject: for Anon Message: Anon: I copied about 200 pages of stuff that might be relevant. Send me your address (if I don't have it) and I'll mail you a copy. If anyone else is interested it's about $5.00 to $10.00, depending on where I can get the copies made. Scott T. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:40:32 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: Scott T Subject: for Anon Message: OK Scott, messages received. well done. I have emailed you with details of where to send the copies etc. sorry I was a bit late on this one.. Brian kindly alerted me to your post by email. I hope you found something to your interest. I appreciate all your efforts. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:55:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Anon Subject: for Anon & me Message: I'm interested in this stuff too .... I also have scans of the 'Hans Yog Prakash' but quality not good enough for OCR Who's going to re-type it ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:55:19 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: for Anon & me Message: regardez votre email Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:57:10 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jude Subject: To Jean-Michel Message: Above post should be addrssed to you (it's hard to read every post isn't it? I'm going to have to take out a mortgage soon!) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:05:11 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Anon Subject: More of Indian stuff Message: I found all those Indian background stuff fascinating and very helpful, for me anyway, as I've always been fascinated and impressed by the whole Indian ritual etc I received k in 72, as many of the oldies, and this stuff is somehow part of my conditioning. I think it would be very helpful to write some digest about all these issues, and maybe have a new section on-line on the site. I've read most of what's on Dr Lane's web-site,,I own quite some old indian DLM materials, and with what Scott is going to dig out we might have enough to make something really good out of it. It's been taking hours for me to dig out the most significant parts of this. What do you think ? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:26:51 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: Jean-Michel Subject: More of Indian stuff Message: I think it would be healthy for an accurate 'history' of the lineage of Masters to be available. I think that it is helpful to be able to see the sociological context from which this particular teaching has arisen. The difficulty is wading through the rhetoric to sort the facts. Already on this site there was some confusion about who Swarup Anand actually was. There was another famous Radhasoami Guru with the same name. I think Scott is now on the right track having unearthed this book 'Paramhans Advait Sant Mat' (or whatever it's called). It almost certainly represents the only written refernce that I have come across so far about Shri Hans' Guru. Of course David Lane insists that Shri Hans was also initiated by the prominent Radhasoami Guru Sawan Singh. That's another whole possibility altogether. If the pieces can be put together with some diligence, I expect that a very interesting picture will emerge. Probably confirming that the habitual 'allegiance battles' and 'family splits' (that are evidently an historic and continuing trait of 'Guru Culture') are similarly demonstrated in the case of M's lineage. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:31:25 (EST)
From: Anon Email: None To: JM Subject: Oh..and Message: Whether a historical look at Maharaji's lineage would have the effect of de-mystifying the thing for some, I wouldn't know. Judging by what I see, I would imagine that people will make of it what they will. Personally I have have found that learning of the broader history of this whole 'movement' has made me question whether I myself am just another victim of social circumstances and poweful influences. A leaf in the wind as it were. There is no doubt that meditation is a potent practice. The 'bhakti' side of things, IMHO, has got a bit out of hand. Let's learn what we can and share what we find. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 18:51:00 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Anon Subject: Oh..and Message: Dear Anon - My experience is that the lineage material 'de-mystifies' the whole M trip for some people, and doesn't have any effect on others. I'm not sure if you were reading the forum when Mike Addison (the 'nine techniques' guy) was posting here, but that had quite a powerful effect on me. Mike received K from one of Shri Hans' mahatmas (can't remember the name), but it was radically different from K as taught by Maharaji. Regards, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 21:22:15 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Oh..and Message: Katie, What did Mark say, or do you remember where it is in the archives? I would love to know what the nine techniques are! Then I could tell all of the premies I know that they got less than half of knowledge, but that I got the whole thing-just kidding. I do think it would be interesting to see that, though. VP P.S. Can you imagine how long it would take to practice 9 techniques-sheesh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 21:36:04 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: the nine techniques Message: I think I can find it (and it's Mike, not Mark. He is a great guy and I wish he was still posting here.) Anyway, let me check and I'll get back with you! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 22:37:13 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: the nine techniques Message: This is all I could find right now (sorry!). I think more of it might be in my old e-mail, which is now on my husband's computer. Anyway, Dr. Mike deserves credit for all this (I hope he wants it!) Mike said: Dear Katie - There are several ways to pronounce things... we can speak things aloud with our voice, we can hum things in our throat, we can mentally speak and repeat things, and we can pronounce things with our breath. There are five distinct sounds that our breath makes which produce the five distinct states of being which constitute the complete cycle of our being: Creating, Sustaining, Changing/Destroying, Transendence and Innocence. This also means that our minds will also take the shape of the state of being we're focusing on and producing as well. The mind will focus on anything we direct it to, and will remain there with a bit of gentle guidance until we develop the habit of focusing on our object of meditation. The more we gently focus on our object of meditation... the more absorbed we become in that object... until I and that... like the salt doll walking into the ocean... melt and become one. The original sound of the breath, produces the Innocence State which is our natural blameless state or the state that the source of universal love (SOUL) always returns to from lifetime to lifetime. The Sat Purusha or True Being neither creates, sustains, destroys or transends however, without Innocence, none of the other four would exist. And the Sat Purusha always exist in an Innocent and Blameless state. The experience of pronouncing is performed by focusing on specific parts of the sound that the breath makes as though we were actually pronouncing it via the power of our breath. For example: when we speak we can open our mouth and exhale and shape our vocal cords and make sounds... the only difference is... we won't be using our vocal cords to make the sounds. For that matter..., we won't use our minds either to pronounce... only to focus on what is being pronounced and we'll shift our intension of pronounciation to our breath to speak one of the five sounds that breath makes. This will produce one of the five states that we choose to experience the Paramahansa (i.e., The Creator/Creatrix, Sustainer, Destroyer, Transender or The Innocent). Focusing on your heart is great because it keeps you in tune with your emotional intelligence. There's a great piece in Zen Flesh, Zen Bones in the back were Paravati is asking Shiva how man can get in touch with the supreme lord... and one of the 108 methods he states is focusing on the space between the beats of the heart which some have called: the Mansaroveranand or the Holy Lake of the Heart. Hope I can find the rest later. Or if Mike is still around, maybe he'd like to enlighten us? Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 22:54:49 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: the nine techniques Message: Yes, I would either need Mike or a mahatma (or maybe we could channel the guru who taught the nine to demonstrate them for me.) Whoa! I feel humbled suddenly. I don't think I could use my vocal chords to make sounds without using my vocal chords. Maybe that is why the techniques were abbreviated to four. Kind of like fast food or something. Immediacy for our times. Knowledge for the impatient instant gratification society. Thanks for looking that up for me, Katie. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:01:44 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: nine techniques (via Katie) Message: AsI recall (and this may not be correct) Mike said we were only taught one technique - the 'innocence' breath technique. Imagine that you are focusing on the word SO (inhale) and HUM (exhale) with your breath. With the innocence technique, you pay more attention to the 'O' on the inhale, and the 'M' on the exhale. (Incidentally, this worked better than any 'word' meditation that I was taught as a premie!) Anyway, as I recall, there are 3 other breath techniques and one other nectar technique. Sorry I can't remember all this stuff! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:16:13 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Keith should ask Message: Don't you think this would be a wonderful question to ask M out of the blue in one of those knowledge reviews? 'Excuse me, Maharaji, but why is it that we were only taught the innocence breath technique? Aren't there three other breath techniques that you neglected to instruct, as well as another nectar technique? Would you care to demonstrate these for me?' I think Keith should ask about this at his little Q and A session. How about it, Keith? BTW, I feel really ripped off now as I cannot do the nectar thing worth a hoot. Maybe I have been doing the wrong technique. Too bad we couldn't put this on the site. I can see it now: 'The real techniques that M is supposed to be teaching, but has simpified.' The plot thickens... Maybe that is our whole problem...we got incomplete knowledge. You pay for a first class seat and end up in coach. Or the guy with the nine was just much more creative with his package. If you ever remember the others, maybe we can still get into the guru business. We can have our own web site and get our own following-just kidding. Thanks, Katie for the revelations! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:22:01 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: Keith should ask Message: I felt really ripped off when Mike revealed the nine techniques to us. I think some of the mahatmas (mine included, since he went back to India with GMJ's mom and brothers) probably felt the same way. I should tell you, however, that Mike never told us anything else about nectar, which probably means there's nothing to tell. You just gotta keep practicin', VP! Ask Sir David...his stories have been revelations to me! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 23:47:56 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: Keith should ask Message: I haven't been to M's brother's website yet (lost the address, but I can find it in the archives) I wonder if the Knowledge he is giving is the same as M's or more involved. Just a curiosity. Maybe someone should post that link again for the newcomers here. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Sat, May 23, 1998 at 06:52:22 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Katie/Sir David Ricotta Subject: Keith should ask Message: You just gotta keep practicin', VP! Ask Sir David...his stories have been revelations to me! could either of you enlighten me on this one? sounds interesting! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:03:32 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Seattle Message: Anyone interested in doing a little leafletting in Seattle? When is the program anyway? I'm not sure I could make it. There are a lot of considerations. But it's a thought. Or, there's going in. Personally, I wouldn't want to try to get into a program at this point. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I'd have to wear a Hillary Clinton mask or something. On the other hand, some of you guys might be able to slip in so easily. Anyone interested in either of these ideas? Bruce? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:12:02 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Seattle Message: Hey that's not that far from me. I don't think they have my picture, at least not since my sex change operation. Besides, I could tell them my name is Gladys or something. Does it cost anything? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:14:09 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Seattle Message: Hi Gerry - I just sent all the info on this year's programs to Brian, so maybe he can clue you in on the exact details. I don't think it costs anything. There is a 'suggested donation', which you don't have to pay, I believe, and there is a charge if you reserve seats in advance. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:33:31 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Katie Subject: Seattle Registration Info Message: Actually, I already have that form. Another ex-premie (one even more diabolical than Katie!) sent it to me. It makes about as much sense as the instructor's manual: 'There is no admission fee to these events; a seat reservation fee is requested by not mandatory. Payments on this form are only for the people on this form. Please note that the seat reservation fee in not refundable.' Seats reservations are 15 dollars (US) with another 15 dollars if you want Translation Headsets (for those who don't speak fluent gibberish??). They'll probably hit you up at the door for money, but they can't charge and maintain their free admission claim, so you don't have to pay unless you feel that entry actually hinges on it when you get there. There's a phone number you can call on Saturday or Sunday 10AM to 6PM (Pacific Time): 818-889-6447 and also a number that gives you other numbers (?): 818-889-7823. All are US phone numbers, BTW. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:55:19 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Brian Subject: Brian Message: Brian, thanks for the info. What is the date and time of the Seattle program? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 19:03:37 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: JW Subject: Oops Message: What is the date and time of the Seattle program? Gonna trifle with details, eh?? Next thing you'll be asking where in Seattle is it being held! [laugh] Actually, I don't have that info. I'll see what's on the stuff Katie sent me and post it when it arrives. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 01:43:46 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Brian Subject: Oops Message: Yeah, Brian, first you are putting down my 'service' to you, and now it seems to be essential...(actually you oughta thank VP, really). Seriously, I sent you a REALLY FUNNY Matt Groenig cartoon along with the schedule of M events, and I sure hope you appreciate it. You can't put it on the site cause it's copyrighted, but oh well. Your humble assistant, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 20:31:04 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: JW Subject: Seattle Program Message: I ordered a ticket for the Seattle program, which I think is on the 11th of July, but not sure, since it did not say on the order form, just listed about six different places where programs were being held and you could check the box for the one you wanted to attend, no dates given. I didn't send any fee (does M. honestly think he's going to get a penny more of my money?? ha!) and still have not received the ticket, several weeks later. EV efficiency at work, I guess. Anyhow, I am going to be leaving July 8th for vacation, so will have to miss the blessed event, which I think is at the Convention Center downtown, so if anyone would like my ticket when/if I ever receive it, I could send it to them. I specifically requested a seat at the back -- I'm sure EV doesn't get that request very often! -- in case I needed to leave in a hurry like last time, since five minutes was the sum total of the time I could tolerate BM's arrogant BS. (That was eight years ago when I decided to attend a program in Vancouver just to see if I could really 'hear', with my rational mind, what BM was saying, perhaps I'd missed something in all those 10 years of program attending? After five minutes, I was out the door.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:31:32 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Joy Subject: Seattle Program Message: Yes, Joy, I attended a progam in San Francisco right after that one in Vacouver that you went to. If I recall correctly, it was YOU that suggested I attend (for a laugh). I also walked out during his little rambling speech. I just couldn't tolerate it anymore when he started talking about how stupid the 'people of the world' and 'human beings' are. It was so negative and dismissive. Arrogant is a very good term. Unfortunately, they, for some reason, gave me a seat in the fourth row, so I had to walk out from the front. A seat in the back is probably a good strategy. I wonder if EV even INTENDS to send you a ticket if you didn't send in a 'donation.' I don't suppose it makes any difference. I doubt he fills halls anymore, unless they are pretty small. That Long Beach program video showed a hall that was at least half empty. I'm sure you can walk in at the last minute and get a seat. Gee, Joy, maybe if you had volunteered to do 'service' at the program you would have gotten a preferred seat. You know, like guarding a door or a refrigerator or something. I wonder if they still have 'premie assistance?' How about 'BM assistance?' God knows he needs it! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:44:05 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: JW Subject: Seattle Program Message: JW, Director of Divine Colonics: I hereby appoint you Ex-Premie in charge of BM Assistance. Congratulations--It's a dirty job, but somebody has to do it. PS I you want to come to Seattle you can stay at my place. (Now don't anybody infer I'm full of shit because of this, you nasty bunch of reprobates) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:12:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jim Subject: p.s. gone for a few days Message: that's me. Probably back on Friday, maybe Saturday. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 17:50:29 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel Email: None To: Jim Subject: schedule Message: Seattle july 11 Denver july 14 Atlantic City July 21 Chicago July 23 Miami July 25 Now Jim: Why do you think security will recognize you at the entrance ? Change your hair, spectacles or mustache nobody will notice you. BTW: all the security staff has been changed recently, after the big Australian boo boo .... (you know when that premie asked m's driver for his pass - the bm was in the car - to access a restricted area) I'm still laughing about it. John MacLean lost his shirt and his pants, and a few others .... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:00:57 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Promises Message: Sorry to keep starting all these new threads but I want to so I will...(heh heh) Ok I remembered there was this good, really vague stuff about Infinity on an M video I have and I decided to find it, for Scott. It was like...infinity is like the speed of light x 3 football fields, you know...you can't imagine it...(because I'm trying to find a way to tease Scott) Anway this is an Introductory video and I spooled through it to catch 'bites'. I didn't find the Infinity material but here are some grabs (and they're not really all that unfair a representation. They are perfectly random, so I think it's a good scientific test. Don't you?) Introductory means M was speaking to people who are new to knowledge. He is talking, in his nice suit: 'Not to live in ignorance but to know...' 'You can begin to live...' 'The most magnificent sight is the sight that's inside of me...' (then there's a graphic that looks like this) TURN INSIDE (more talking...) '...you want to experience joy? (and then he mentions) Love? Be happy? Feel like on top of the world? Experience Immortality? - it won't stop the death but you will feel immortal...' (Then we get some Indian Guru pics of him very beautiful in a black shirt, some devotional type pics. He quotes from a poem - (you (the master) are) 'like a mother, father, friend, you're there...in the middle of the night can turn on the light...that friend that makes that opportunity available (for you) to grow...for ever and ever and ever' (also mentions - 'Enjoy, Be Thankful, Content' in this context)...'to find THE good away from all the other variables...' (also, ecstatic premies can now be seen in the shots) Just had to donate parts of that to the Forum. I couldnt watch the whole thing, but scanning was okay for me. Remember the title - Dream the Real Dream. Chiou bambinos Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:04:47 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Promises Message: On re-reading, maybe this material looks harmless? But what he is dangling is so many things people long for - to know, to live, joy, love, happiness, immortality, mother, father, friend, to grow (for ever and ever and ever - note biblical connotation) - and the video is full of it. This is about 1'00 of grabs. And the way it so cleverly builds, and introduces concepts waftily but firmly (the emphasis he uses, the tone of voice). And all this guys, you can get all of the above by just sticking your fingers in your face and breathing. Isn't that what babies do? Oh yes, I've heard that one too, that babies are In That Place but then they Lose it Maybe That's Where They Are in the Womb (before their senses have developed?) But why, how, where? - I mean did we get made with a key like that to open the door to god/infinity/immortality? It's just like clicking your heels three times! That's what I think! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:20:32 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Jude Subject: Darwin Message: Jude, I know I keep harping on this but I really think your questions might be somewhat, if not entirely, satisfied by modern evolutionary theory. May I reccommend a book? The Moral Animal by Robert Wright. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:17:34 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Song Message: Got this song in my head - I met a woman long ago her hair the black that black can go are you a teacher of the heart? soft she answered no.... Anyone remember this one? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:10:12 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jude Subject: Song Message: It's called 'Teacher', I think. By Leonard Cohen on 'Songs of Leonard Cohen'. It's the one with him looking out from a deep, black void of an album sleeve with an expression like he's just lost a tenner and found a shilling. (Come to think of it, that's how he always looks...) Another verse goes: I met a woman 'cross the sea Her hair as gold as gold can be 'Are you the teacher of the heart?' 'Yes, but not for thee' Nigel Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 19:22:59 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: Jude Subject: Laughing Len is cool by me Message: Like many others of my age, I spent many lonely teenage evenings brooding over Leonard Cohen's early albums and trying to fathom out what his impenetrable doom-laden lyrics were all about, whilst doing my best to learn his guitar picking techniques (better than Bert Weedon any day!) Never heard anything more from him beyond about 1970 until somebody played me a record he made in 1987, called 'I'm your man', when Len was 50-plus. And it is wonderful, IMHO. No introverted solo guitar-strumming, here, but a full band and a collection of songs that groove along in a decidedly cheerful and upbeat kind of misery. Lyrics no longer opaque, and you can spot a savage, ironic wit in places. Echoed my post-premie cynicism exactly. The whole LP is like a cry from the heart for the lost innocence of the whole sixties counter-culture and its political and spiritual aspirations. It is definitely one for ex-premies. The words of my favourite track, 'Everybody Knows' stand out in particular. It is a long song so I will just quote a few verses. Hey! - this is genuine synchronicity... Since re-reading the lyrics on the sleeve just now, trying to pick which ones to post, I think I have found a possible BM reference! Read the last verse . What do you think? Everybody knows that the dice are loaded Everybody rolls with their fingers crossed Everybody knows the war is over Everybody knows the good guys lost Everybody knows the fight was fixed The poor stay poor, the rich get rich That's how it goes... Everybody knows. Everybody knows that it's now or never Everybody knows that it's me or you Everybody knows that you live forever Especially when you've done a line or two Everybody knows the deal is rotten Old Black Joe's still pickin' cotton For your ribbons and bows... And everybody knows. Everybody knows that you're in trouble Everybody knows what you've been through From the bloody cross on top of Calvary To the beach at Malibu Everybody knows it's coming apart: Take one last look at the Sacred Heart Before it blows... And everybody knows. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:44:56 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The Golden Age Message: I was re-reading some Journeys posts and I recalled a publication I bought at Amaroo 97 called 'The Golden Age'. It celebrates 25 years of knowledge in Australia. It contains 'stories' by premies and has lots of pics of the early days, and how he first came to oz. These stories are like tributes. It's like the Forum in reverse. I can send it off on a round-robyn if anyone wants to see it. Just so you get the hang of it, here are some headings of tributes: 'Rich Beyond Compare' 'A Desert Blooms' 'So Many Memories' 'Reflections on an Indian Sunrise' 'The Adventure of Life' 'Amazing Grace' 'My Master, My Friend' 'The Giver of this Priceless Gift' ,'Magical Propogation' and 'Bliss is Still Bliss'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:52:27 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Re: The Golden Age Message: By the way I mean no disrespect to the human beings who published their stories here. Not at all. The picture on the cover is a beauty, a golden wave (and a logo of a sunrise behind clouds- quite 70's style). I must say, the photography in some of the 'composite' videos shown at programs, where they intersperse film of such things as clear mountain streams, birds flying, amazing dissolves from clouds into speckles in the water, etc, are actually beautiful and well made. Some of the music is really nice too. What a shame these talented people are wasting their efforts on a whole lot of bullshit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:30:28 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jude Subject: Re: The Golden Age Message: yes it is a shame. doubly sad because M made fun of the nature videos in the 96 LB event. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:42:55 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth Email: None To: Jude Subject: Re: The Golden Age Message: Of course these videos are beautiful and well made. Such is the calibre of the type of person that Maharaji attracts. Just look at the fruits that Maharaji bears, just look at his students and you will see a superior spirit at work. How can you doubt it? It is obvious and self evident. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:47:24 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: John Hammond-Smyth Subject: Oh, I get it, John HS Message: Of course these videos are beautiful and well made. Such is the calibre of the type of person that Maharaji attracts. Just look at the fruits that Maharaji bears, just look at his students and you will see a superior spirit at work. How can you doubt it? It is obvious and self evident. This is a joke, right? Like Gerry's first post. Sorry I didn't catch on. Very clever. |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:59:09 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh, I get it, John HS Message: See Jim. And YOU called him an asshole . See, see, see? Ha Ha. Nah Nah Nah Nah na. How's the crow taste? You can come out now, John. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:04:57 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Oh, I get it, John HS Message: Actually, Gerry, I think John was a card-carrying cult member UNTIL I called him the 'a' word (can't believe you said it. Oh my Gosh!!). Right John? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:46:58 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Jim Subject: Language Message: Well the 'a' word didn't bother me so much, it was when you said to someone 'I'd rather be dead than think like you' I thought it was a bit of a worry. I wondered how that person felt about that. They are strong words. But yes it definitely conveys the intended communication. So you do you get plus points for making your point, or smacks for aiming too low? I have no idea! the Judge Jude Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 23:01:52 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth Email: None To: Jim Subject: Oh, I get it, John HS Message: I am shocked that you do not take my comments seriously. Don't you reckognise gratitude when you see it. Now would I joke about such a divine and important being as Maharaji? He has come to save the world and you are laughing. Shame on you Mr Heller. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 06:30:55 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: John Hammond-Smyth Subject: Oh, I get it, John HS Message: I am shocked that you do not take my comments seriously. Don't you reckognise gratitude when you see it. Now would I joke about such a divine and important being as Maharaji? He has come to save the world and you are laughing. Shame on you Mr Heller. Amazing! And people call Jim a throw-back to the 70's!!? That a fully-grown adult would believe that Prempal Rawat is such a divine and important being who has come to save the world is truely laughable. Hang onto your teeth as they begin to fall out, John. The tooth-fairy will reward you handsomely. So, what's your take on his brother, Satpal? A fraud? A Satguru? An accomplice? Or just another person playing the come to save the world role for the gullible? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:00:17 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Brian Subject: Oh, I get it, John HS Message: Do you think this would make a story for 60 minutes? Or some show that has international reach that everyone watches? It would be a good angle for them to go at it with. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:27:43 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Jude Subject: The Golden Age Message: Dear Jude, I don't care about seeing the magazine but I noticed right away that my name was in your post, damn, just a phrase. :( Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:00:29 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Jude Subject: The Golden Age Message: here are some headings of tributes [Accompanied by some which were not chosen]: 'Rich Beyond Compare' - 'Riches Beyond Taxation' 'A Desert Blooms' - 'Desert Real Estate Booms' 'So Many Memories' - 'Guru WHO??' 'Reflections on an Indian Sunrise' - 'Satpal: Another Son Rises' 'The Adventure of Life' - 'A Venture Of Lies' 'Amazing Grace' - 'Amazing Greed' 'My Master, My Friend' - 'My Master, My Husband' 'The Giver of this Priceless Gift' - 'Raising Magic Money' 'Magical Propogation' - 'Spending Magic Money' 'Bliss is Still Bliss' - 'He Rode Tall In The Saddle Till His Blister Broke' Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:02:39 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Brian Subject: The Golden Age Message: Ha de ha ha. I have a good TV show that might like to do a story on him: Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous.?? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:38:42 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jude Subject: The Golden Age Message: Jude, I gathered someplace that you just received knowledge fairly recently. I was just curious. Were you encouraged during your aspirant program and in the knowledge session to refer to yourself and others as 'premies' or as 'students?' And were you ever told that M used to be called 'Guru Maharaj Ji?' Also, did anyone tell you anything about darshan? Did they talk about 'devotion' and/or 'gratitude' and did anyone say how that fit in to practicing knowledge? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 05:52:09 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: JW Subject: The Golden Aspirant Message: In answer to your questions, JW: Yes I received knowledge about 18 months ago (after listening for several years off and on then about 15 months as an aspirant.) I always knew the term 'aspirant' because I was told by other premies about it. But I waited till I felt 'the thirst' before I decided I was an aspirant. That came after a period of stopping going to videos. It was the thought of how life is impermanent, and some inspiration about the 'ocean of life' that helped me to decide. M used the word aspirant in the aspirant videos. He also used the term student/master. The way it worked was you first were supposed to go to Introductory videos, then if you showed interest you would be invited to aspirant videos. If you came a few times to an introductory and showed an interest you would be invited to an aspirant video. There would be a special venue for aspirant videos (premies could come too & often did). In these videos he would specifically tell you about being an aspirant, what is a master, all that stuff. The 2nd video VP mentioned would be an aspirant video. They are the most 'loving' in my opinion, and 'teaching' the most. In my programs there was someone planning the sequence of videos from week to week. They would become much more intense just before M came to town (ie: getting down to the nitty gritty of getting you to really want this 'gift'). He would allude to all sorts of godly things. We would often feel we were in another state of consciousness, like in a dream. He really promised a lot, when your rational mind was 'switched off'. I think I recognise a kind of hypnosis, actually, but it felt like you were being touched deeply. You would come out not remembering a word of what he said, but feel like you had had a really profound experience. I never heard him called Maharaji Ji. All I knew of the early days was composite videos showing early b& w footage with voice over. There is one where he says 'I come to bring you peace'. I thought it meant 'to you personally'. There are three new videos they made for the '25 years in the West' celebrations last year. Remembrance is one of them. They show footage of the boy M, the child, his dad. It all looks very quaint and endearing. Almost cute. It also tugs on the heartstrings; it's nostalgic. I never knew about darshan till I actually got it/did it, the day after I received knowledge. It seemed a way to express my love to him. Everyone was very high. The music was 'old songs' (is that what you call arti?) Eg: 'lord of the universe' type of songs, which I had never heard anything like until that point. I loved it (at the time). The term gratitude was used a lot in the aspirant videos. Devotion I think was not referred to unless indirectly (via Kabir). I never really thought I was going to have to 'devote' myself to M. I thought that when I started practicing I would be free. I really did. But I guess I knew he was saying service and regular listening was part of it. But I thought 'my' knowledge of god would fill the place inside - not his (even though once he said 'this is my knowledge). Many premies said they wished they could go back to being an aspirant. I did see a change in some people ahead of me in the queue, so to speak who got knowledge before me. At first they looked better, happier, more whole. But I noticed they didn't come to programs very regularly. The premies who have been around the longest sometimes seem sad and empty to me. Other times they are kind. Some are really critical. But they all suffer and some get depressed when they don't see him, say for 6 months. That's my perception. Also, I hate to say it, a lot of them are not very 'intellectual' in their processes. But they are 'knowing' (knowing what?) at times, and humble I guess you could say. It strikes me that everything he does in the preparation would be good, if Knowledge was really all he said it was. It's that simple, perhaps. And if it really made you free, and not just swapping one 'master' (pain) for another 'the master of illusion'. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 07:50:11 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Jude Subject: Service Message: Dear Jude, Also, I hate to say it, a lot of them are not very 'intellectual' in their processes. I think you have hit the nail smack bang on the head with this one. The whole point of service (at least in my active days) was to become a tool for Maharaji and BTW it was also understood that serving the premies was the same as serving Maharaji, but I digress. In becoming a tool it was necessary to suspend judgement about the uses to which the tool might be put and it is therefore implicit that the intellect be suspended too. This sort of stuff led to a whole raft of problems since most of the people 'handing out' service assignments did not subscribe to any idea of serendipity or random assignment of tasks. Oh dear me no! If you had a nice car then, of course, you would be transporting Mahatma's/Initiators around. If you had money, like big bucks, then simply hanging out with the family or taking Raja Ji motor racing would surely get you to heaven. This is not simply jealousy on my part, I had some pretty exclusive service assignments myself. It was always a question of contacts. Even after quitting the formal side of the Mish I could still have my pick of festival/program assignments. It's a question of trust yeah? And maybe a little bit of payback for previous services rendered! I bet I could still get some backstage service, even now. But for the average Joe premies with no career aspirations, no contacts, no agenda and no smarts, you bet your life they suspend the intellectual process. 'Cause they get ripped off every time they show their faces. They pay their money to get to the venue, they queue up for the service pool (do they still have that?) and if they look nicely turned out they might be allowed to appear in public. Otherwise it's the carpark, rubbish collection etc... Maybe that scene has changed a little since my day, perhaps someone could fill me in on that? 'pologies for the rant. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:42:59 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Richard Subject: Service Message: Dear Richard, Didn't think that was ranting at all! But rant away anytime you feel it. We are here for each other to do just that. I want to say YOU GO GIRL! but there is no substitue male word for girl that gives the same feel to the phrase. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:15:51 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Service Message: How about, 'Attaboy!' Watch out or you will be joining me in the cheerleading ranks. You probably look better in a skirt... I'll hold the megaphone and lift you into the air. VP-feeling silly Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:12:52 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: VP Subject: Service Message: Give me a B! Give me an M! What's that spell! I said what's that spell! ...lift Thanks VP, couldn't have done it without you. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 17:31:31 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Richard Subject: Service Message: Dear Richard Thank you so much for sharing that. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 10:37:16 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jude Subject: Maharaji Ji, by any other name Message: Dear Jude, If you never heard BM called Maharaji Ji what was he called? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 17:27:52 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Maharaji Ji, by any other name Message: Maharaji. I now recall that I did see the name Maharaji ji on the double decker bus in one of the B&W clips from the past. So he dropped the ji, that's what i thought. What does ji mean anyway? You guys must see those remembrance videos, unless it would just stir you up. They make the 'hippies' look absolutely stoned, and M look like a little shining boy-god. PS I always disliked his name. My (elderly) mother once said to me that she thought maraji was like a mirage? Interesting because my dad used to fly planes called Mirages. Also, i must have been getting close to losing my denial when I was telling someone about M and I actually apologised for his name! I said, oh that's the title the Indians call him. Anything naiive or embarassingly emotional can be attrribute to them, poor simple souls, right? Also - this is important I think - although in the West M does only word of mouth, in India I believe he pamphlets in the street when he is coming. Hence thousands come to see him (I was told thousands will come to see any guru. Also, its free and they get a feed) He said he has given knowledge to 50,000 people since he started giving it himself. This includes 2,000 at a time in India recently. Just so you can get a perspective on it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 03:39:57 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Everyone Subject: Yet another Archive... Message: ...is online. I couldn't sleep (too hot) so I ran it tonight (this morning?). Maybe I can snooze now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 02:12:13 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Everyone Subject: HO HUM Message: Many of the same old themes get regurgitated here. I guess that's to be expected. My mind sometimes gets bored with the 'party line' of both premies and ex-premies. What is it we are all debating and/or discussing anyway? One can really get lost in the trees and lose sight of the forest. Surely my mind can rattle on ....it is reasonably powerful. But my mental agilities and abilities do not give me that sense of 'well being 'that I know is fundamental. I could fall (again) into a mind-set that my participation in this forum is a crucade.....a battle between minds....a showpiece for whoever is watching out there in cyberland. Many ex's here have very sophisticated (academic, intellectual, educated) minds and 'charm'....real personality plus's. And many express very reasonably(certainly not all) and know how to justify a point of view. But at the end of the day I really do only want to feel in touch with a place and a space I know and love . And that place/space is my own vaster consciousness. Only from 'there'(here!) can I even begin to feel in touch with myself(not just my mind). I can emerge and do my thing but unless I stay in touch with the place where all things emerge from , it's all to no avail. I am not defending Maharaji here or even knowledge. I am sharing (inadequately I know...such is the way of words), from my own experience. There is no doubt that on the level of analytical mind I can always 'evaluate' M both positively and negatively. But in order to evaluate anything in a manner that really feels 'right' on the deepest level of my being I need to get a type of overview.....not an analytical one .....but an 'intuitive' one. Analysis has a place within the scheme of things but it is another more real , more substantial' me ' that must be guided by. Mind without soul(and spirit) is just a multi-level game of ho hum!! Regards , Keith ps; How will the reactive minds react to this post? Reactively I guess! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 05:21:38 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Keith Subject: Neccessary Ho Hum.. Message: Dear Keith, 'Many of the same old themes get regurgitated here. I guess that's to be expected.' Yes you're right but it's also welcomed by people such as me who have only very recently begun to conciously examine some of these issues. I have just started to trawl through the 'Journeys' section and I am finding it very difficult to do. Particularly the stories from the English ex-premies from the '70s which strike a chord for me. I don't think that I can talk about this much at the moment, it is painful. I would like to thank Katie and Nigel for their stories. I also thank Jim for his anger..it keeps me going. However, one thing I do wish to deal with right now is my status. I was a premie, I made promises and vows as a premie which no one had the right to ask of me. These vows were powerful and meant a great deal to me and have caused me much pain over the years which I have never reconciled and for which I have always held myself responsible. I must keep this brief or I will go on for hours, when I am ready I will describe my own journey. For now I simply want to say.. and I don't know why this is so hard.. that I take all the vows and promises back. I am an ex-premie. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 07:37:41 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Richard Subject: Vows Message: Richard I also have had problems with the vows. I recently discovered this Forum but like others have mentioned, I was already in place to have the 'egg' cracked. It didn't hurt much, in fact it feels better every day, like having a boil lanced. But it has brought up my own issues about why this happened and how I can move on. My issues at the moment are about 'free will' and just how much responsibility I take for my own life. I too am now an ex-premie. I even tried to practice one night after about a week of reading this Forum and I actually felt sick. I don't intend to practice again. I keep wondering when my 'glow' will wear off that I imagined surrounded me (spiritually) like a little light that other seekers would be drawn too. People actually seem to like me just the same and now I don't have anything to 'tell' to them I can actually enjoy life without the propaganda. That's some of my recent experience (about 3 weeks into my freedom). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 08:09:34 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Jude Subject: Vows Message: Thanks Jude. It helps a great deal to be acknowledge by you and the others in this forum. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 08:17:01 (EST)
From: Keith Email: None To: Richard Subject: Vows Message: Dear Richard, Thanks for sharing that. Actually I find it difficult to admit that I'm torn between two ways of approaching things. I cannot say what I am except I am. It must be a great relief for you to be able to say I am an ex-premie! I was only asked to keep one vow ....not to reveal the techniques. Now things have changed a bit it seems. Good luck. Warm regards, Keith. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:19:13 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Keith Subject: Vows Message: Gee Keith. I was asked to 'stay in touch' and 'give knowledge a fair chance' as well as the above-mentioned. Well I did keep those vows (I also said to the instructor when asking for knowledge that I would promise it every day for the rest of my life - and meant it). I listened off and on for about 2 1/2 years before asking for it. I will have to do all my sums one day about dates and times. The final year before receiving it I went to a video program 3 nights a week. I got my job to fit in with the video hours. I drove about 20k to go to the video each time. All I dreamed about when I was an aspirant was starting up a video on my local town. (that's another story). I like what Richard said about TAKING BACK something. That feels like a very empowering way of looking at it to me. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:32:01 (EST)
From: Richard Email: None To: Keith Subject: Taking my vows back... Message: Hi Keith, I guess that the power of a vow, no matter how trivial it may seem objectively, is derived from the importance place upon it by the person making it. My vows, which included dedicating my life to Maharaji (not the knowledge), promising never to reveal techniques (on pain of death) and signing a paper to that effect, had a profound effect on me, obviously. I like to think of myself as loyal, reliable and trustworthy. I don't make promises lightly and if I break them I would be inclined to blame myself. I thought that the vows were worth taking, given the deal. It never occurred to me, even 24 odd years later, that the net result of a vow honestly made but on a false premise would be all the pain, personal humiliation and a profoundly damaged sense of dignity. It seemed a small thing to say that I am an ex-premie but it took me all night to decide to do it. I take back my vows along with all the power that I gave to Maharaji with them. I would be really pleased if this helps you or anyone else. Richard Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:53:03 (EST)
From: Joy Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com To: Keith Subject: Vows Message: Keith, I appreciate what you're saying, that there's more to life than the 'analytical' side of things. Of course this is true, for premies and for everyone else on this site. It's just that there's other ways of experiencing that than with M, believe it or not. And it's such a joy, after years of conditioning and agya to 'shut down' our analytical processes, to exercise them once again, which is what you're seeing people doing here. My suggestion would be to try and remain open to the possibility of joy and magic coming from other sources besides M. M is correct in that we DO need to enjoy our lives. It's just that his brand of enjoyment turned out not to be enjoyment at all, but surrender to a cultish way of existence. There IS a certain release in this experience (again, read The Guru Papers), when, absolved of responsibility for your life, you feel a certain freedom. But I maintain that this enjoyment and supposed freedom is actually a trap of a subtle and insidious variety and that TRUE enjoyment of life is to be found elsewhere. And that's going to be a different place for just about everyone, there is no absolute as to where Truth lies. (I'm not saying there is no absolute Truth, just that the paths to it are as myriad as there are humans alive on the planet.) And I'd just like to add my appreciation of Richard and his public declaration, must have taken courage to do that, congratulations, Richard! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:48:14 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Joy Subject: Vows Message: Dear Joy and all, This statement: There IS a certain release in this experience (again, read The Guru Papers), when, absolved of responsibility for your life, you feel a certain freedom. reminded me of someone I met in college who told me that he would love to, as an adult, wear a diaper and let some 'mommy' take care of him totally. Sick, eh? It sounds so absurd in this context but when the giving up of your responsibility for a spirtitual cause the absurdity is not as up front and striking but when I see it as parellel to this guys statement it is obviously f)*&ed up! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:12:34 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Richard Subject: Vows Message: I didn't really just want to just say - 'oh yeah - and this is what I think'. I felt touched when I read your post. It hasn' been painless for me either, in fact I just went to bed and had a kind of nightmare. I don't feel so alone knowing there are people to talk to here and it helps more than I would really care to admit. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:01:03 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jude, Richard, Keith Subject: Vows Message: Hi guys This is the most powerful and moving thread I've read so far on this forum. It struck a deep, deep chord inside me. I don't quite know why, but thanks so much for your honesty and openness. Your Bro, Gerry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:15:03 (EST)
From: Carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: Jude, Keith, Richard, all Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: YES!!!! We do not need to prostrate to anyone. We do not need to practice anything except looking, and looking again and again at who we are in the present timeless moment. I am no longer a premie because I recognize that I no longer attribute to one man the experience within me of who I really am. We are all each other's teachers and some of us are friends. I need not be bound by rules about what to say or do that are externally dictated to me by someone I allow myself to believe (or was programmed to believe when I was in a state of innocent trust) knows better than me. I am grateful for anyone who helps me in any way to know this self-evident truth better, even the ones who seem to have hurt me, because out of my pain has come grater knowledge of my self. I only want to live my life in such a way that I become more and more awake. I set and re-set an intention to put love first in all my actions and I trust everything will be as it may, and be OK! The so called second coming of Christ if you choose to think of 'it' in that way at all, will be when each of us realizes that we are 'It'. You are it! I love you. Wishing you all unconditional love and knowing once again today why Mona Lisa was smiling!!!Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:34:35 (EST)
From: Scott T Email: None To: Carol Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: Carol: The way I heard it Mona was smiling because she knew DaVinci was gay. Really. Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:55:37 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Scott T Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: Not Leonardo? Speaking of such, I think I dreamt about Brad Pitt last night. (no it's not women's troubles now its women's dreams) Ha! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:13:15 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Dear Scott Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: Dear Scott, I noticed I seem to post irrelevant things to you. I think it may be because after initially responding to me, I felt you just switched off. A friend I was talking to in the park today told me her dog loves this old corgi, everytime he sees it he rushes up to play even tho the other dog can't stand him and growls, etc! Am I doing this number with you? Was it something I said about the bi-cycles that offended you? Pray tell - I am not a very sensitive individual to other people's feelings but I want to apologise if any posts have offended you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 22:58:58 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Scott T Subject: DaVinci Message: That may well be. I have really liked all the gay men I have known! There is something special about having a male friend with whom there is no sexual innuendos. I got to experience that easiness with some celibate men as well in times past. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:44:42 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Carol Subject: Carol, Mona Lisa-off topic Message: Carol, I believe that Scott's theory about the smile is incorrect. I know that Lisa --I'm getting a blank on her last name now, but I'll get back to you when I remember-- was 15 years old when that painting was started. (Harder lives back then, eh?) She was the wife of a wealthy merchant who had commissioned the painting. She was young and easily distracted, (basically in a fairly bad mood about having to sit for this painting that her husband wanted) and she had to sit for a long time. DaVinci had a small decorative water fountain installed near where she was sitting to give her something beautiful to look at. He also had some animals (I don't remember if they were puppies or kittens now) and some crystal spheres for her to play with while he worked on the painting. He was a most creative and inventive person. (Prior to the Renaissance the word 'creative',in Italy, at least, was reserved for God alone. Humans were not viewed as worthy of creating anything worthwhile enough for them to be called 'creative'. After the likes of DaVinci, humans -artists- were also allowed to be described as such.) Even though the painting was commissioned,it was shown in galleries(probably lent), and Leonardo would walk by and paint on it as it hung in the galleries. He was obsessed with making it 'complete'. Under layers of paint, x-rays have revealed a pearl necklace that was painted over, as well as other changes to the clothes, face and hair. Later on, The Mona Lisa hung in the bathroom of Napoleon Bonaparte's home. It has been stolen and once a moustache was painted on her smiling face. It is so valuable because it is one of the only surviving paintings by DaVinci. (I believe that there are only 6 surviving paintings). DaVinci experimented with different pigment binders and most of them have ruined the paintings that he made. The Mona Lisa has survived fairly well, considering that it contains experimental binders and that it was painted at the beginning of the 1500's. Hope I didn't spoil the mystery for you, but I thought you might like to hear the real story. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:43:00 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: VP Subject: Carol, Mona Lisa-off topic Message: No, you didn't spoil the mystery,very interesting facts! It was a tongue in cheek art interpretation, combined with my personal identification to the appearance of her (kind of like me) that I referenced at some point by using *mona lisa* as my alias along with my personal revelation,the other day, quite strong, that I truly know who I am, and when I do I'm smiling! Carol :} Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:53:01 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Carol Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: Thanks Carol. I hadn't realised that you have only come recently. I am glad you are here and I relate to you. I can't talk much now because I have to go to work! I wish I could stay home, as I didn't sleep very well last night. Perhaps I will ring and say I am tired from de-programming activities. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 06:01:04 (EST)
From: Jude Email: None To: Carol Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: We do not need to practice anything except looking, and looking again and again at who we are in the present timeless moment. I am no longer a premie because I recognize that I no longer attribute to one man the experience within me of who I really am. We are all each other's teachers and some of us are friends. I need not be bound by rules about what to say or do that are externally dictated to me by someone I allow myself to believe (or was programmed to believe when I was in a state of innocent trust) knows better than me. I am grateful for anyone who helps me in any way to know this self-evident truth better, even the ones who seem to have hurt me, because out of my pain has come grater knowledge of my self. I only want to live my life in such a way that I become more and more awake. I set and re-set an intention to put love first in all my actions and I trust everything will be as it may, and be OK! Carol I love what you said here. I was walking the park this afternoon after four long days' work - I had the afternoon off. Took my dog who I hadn't taken out for several days. Walking in the park met a woman who last time I talked to we had a long conversation about drugs (and her daughter's problems) and then I told her about knowledge. She has two dogs, she and her husband adopted both from the shelter. One was really timid and one was really angry. Now these dogs have changed so much. My dog spent an hour romping with them. She spent the whole time telling me about her friends. How they live in different countries but time makes no difference, and when they catch up it's like no time has gone. That includes her friend's kids. She was so great. I was getting a big talk on friendship, and it's value. Also, the two jobs I am doing, one of them is a school and the other an insurance investigator. Both are teaching me a lot in different ways. I can't put it into words, but I feel I am being helped by 'Life'. I feel the presence of other people willing to include me, when I show I am willing to be there. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:47:00 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jude Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: Dear Jude, I have seen, in my life, I feel I am being helped by 'Life'. I feel the presence of other people willing to include me, when I show I am willing to be there. It is what life is all about to me! Glad you see it working for you. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:50:04 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jude Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: I am so glad you got something out of that message! I was really inspired when I wrote it, another peak experience to add to the others. It (the joy and love I was feeling so strongly) faded slowly over the day, but a more peaceful state remains. With regards, you yourself are as wonderful as anyone else you have loved! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:40:23 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Carol Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: Dear Carol, I've been out and just barely in here lately but last I read you were leaning toward premiedom. I am glad to see you feeling rooted in the faith of the power of your own experience. Wish I could give you a hug! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:57:12 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: Dear Robyn, You have been so kind and accepting of me and others here even when we looked to be of the other camp, so to speak. You've helped me feel free to reflect what I know and be true to myself. I also do not feel any urgency to try to change people's minds who love or respect M as their teacher, as it is for each person to find themselves using whatever mirrors they choose. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:56:48 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: Carol Subject: Vow: To thy own self be true Message: Dear Carol, Glad to be of 'service'! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:51:22 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Carol Subject: Carol, mirror needed?? Message: In one of the videos I watched last night, M asks what is the thing closest to our eye? He says that it is the nose. Of course, I was thinking the eyelid! Anyway, he says that we need a mirror to see our nose, but when I look down, I can see mine just fine! I got laughing on that one. Never answering the same as the teacher does VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:55:37 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs To: VP Subject: Carol, mirror needed?? Message: Dear VP, You'd never guess what I thought you'd be asking Carol about needing a mirror. Still on those woman's issues I guess!! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 02:54:46 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: VP Subject: Carol, mirror needed??Nah! Message: I see mine, too! carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:12:02 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Richard Subject: Neccessary Ho Hum.. Message: Dear Richard, Thanks very much for what you wrote. You are right that what you are going through right now is painful, and I hope you are managing to deal with it. As Keith said - sometimes people on here feel like they are just telling the same old stories - including me - so it's very inspiring to me to feel that you found it to be of help. I sometimes feel discouraged about my participation here, but letters like yours help a lot. I'm glad you're here. Katie (probably not the Katie of the journeys entry you read) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:37:27 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Richard Subject: Neccessary Ho Hum.. Message: Dear Richard, When I read that last statement: For now I simply want to say.. and I don't know why this is so hard.. that I take all the vows and promises back. I am an ex-premie. it gave me shimmy lizards and I feel tears welling up in my eyes. I am pretty raw today but your emotion touched me. Good luck with finally dealing with all this shit. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:54:18 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: Richard Subject: Neccessary Ho Hum.. Message: Richard, You have taken a big step towards reclaiming your life, and I congratulate you for your courage. Remember that many of us here having taken the same step and can help you in this. Regards, Michael Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:52:18 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Keith Subject: HO HUM Message: Keith: There is no doubt that on the level of analytical mind I can always 'evaluate' M both positively and negatively. But in order to evaluate anything in a manner that really feels 'right' on the deepest level of my being I need to get a type of overview.....not an analytical one .....but an 'intuitive' one. I haven't seen that it's possible to evaluate M positively and fairly. That's a game you play. I wonder why analysis seems inconclusive to you? And how is it you believe your powers of analysis are so awesome? How would you have voted on the OJ trial, I wonder? Con men all know perfectly well how to appeal to your intuition. That's how they got the name, 'confidence.' They wouldn't have anything to sell if that weren't the case. But, all of this is wasted on you, isn't it? In fact, it may be that in your 'metaphysical enquiry' you've systematically weakened your analytical capacity while allowing your 'intuition' to be conditioned. That might be the 'overview' you need. Can't help you there, I'm afraid. You're on your own. Best of luck. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |