Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 8

From: May 15, 1998

To: May 23, 1998

Page: 2 Of: 5



Jim -:- talking with a premie -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:07:09 (EST)
__Rick -:- talking with a premie -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:09:41 (EST)
____Keith -:- talking with a premie -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 01:22:09 (EST)
____Katie -:- talking with a premie -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:30:47 (EST)
______Jude -:- talking with a premie -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:03:51 (EST)
________Jim -:- Jude...what? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:17:16 (EST)
__midnight -:- mania -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 01:21:44 (EST)
____Bruce -:- mania -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 07:23:09 (EST)
______Scott T. -:- mania -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:06:14 (EST)
________Carol -:- mania -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 23:23:33 (EST)
____Selena -:- mania -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:44:10 (EST)
__Richard -:- Honest evaluation -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:19:39 (EST)
____Jim -:- Richard's EKG -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:41:06 (EST)
______Katie -:- Richard Jude and Keith -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:56:06 (EST)
______Richard -:- Richard's EKG -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 06:30:37 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Anger and Shame -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:44:41 (EST)
____nigel -:- Honest evaluation -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 20:11:42 (EST)
__JW -:- talking with a premie -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:13:03 (EST)
____Memphis Belle -:- the 'me' thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:45:00 (EST)
______JW -:- the 'me' thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:59:28 (EST)
______Jude -:- the 'me' thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:03:23 (EST)
________JW -:- the 'me' thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:28:24 (EST)
__eb -:- talking with a premie -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:59:17 (EST)

Memphis Belle -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:05:35 (EST)
__John Hammond-Smyth -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:52:43 (EST)
____Mickey the Pharisee -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:01:47 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:07:55 (EST)
____Selena -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:46:33 (EST)
______Brian -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:54:23 (EST)
____VP -:- Is he really alcoholic? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:50:57 (EST)
__JM -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 03:49:17 (EST)
____John Hammond-Smyth -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 05:46:51 (EST)
__Bruce -:- M's no alcoholic -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 07:54:07 (EST)
____Jude -:- M's no alcoholic -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:21:49 (EST)
____Brian -:- Kanguru Kamp is no resort -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:20:38 (EST)
______Jude -:- Amaroo 97 -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:31:37 (EST)
________Brian -:- Amaroo 97 -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:12:39 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Funny, Brian -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:17:26 (EST)
____________Brian -:- Funny, Brian -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:24:12 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Sic 'em, Rick -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:29:42 (EST)
________________Brian -:- Don't even consider it! -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:50:23 (EST)
______________Rick -:- Funny, Brian -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 20:14:35 (EST)
________Bruce -:- Amaroo 97 -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:09:24 (EST)
______Bruce -:- Kanguru Brian is no Kamp -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:20:39 (EST)
____Selena -:- M's no alcoholic -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:50:22 (EST)
__JW -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:22:52 (EST)
____Jude -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:26:13 (EST)
__nigel -:- Is he really Alcoholic? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 20:04:26 (EST)

Jack -:- Carry-over from inactive list -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:05:02 (EST)
__Jack -:- Carry-over from inactive list -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:11:04 (EST)
____Jim -:- Don't be silly, Jack -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:32:07 (EST)
______Jim -:- Don't be silly, Jim -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:34:35 (EST)
________Jack -:- Don't be silly, Jim -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 20:21:30 (EST)
______Rick -:- Don't be silly, Jack -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 01:09:40 (EST)
________Oh my god! -:- I'm having a memory -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:45:18 (EST)
__________JW -:- I'm having a memory -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:50:13 (EST)
____________eb -:- Sunshine Makers -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:41:20 (EST)
______________John -:- Sunshine Makers -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:11:39 (EST)
________________eb -:- Sunshine Makers -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:34:02 (EST)
__________________John -:- whatever -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:14:59 (EST)
____________________eb to John, -:- Since you asked... -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 18:35:27 (EST)
______________________John -:- Since you asked... -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:33:42 (EST)
______Jack -:- Don't be silly, Jack -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 20:14:16 (EST)
________Jude -:- Meat of the Message -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 01:38:44 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Meat of the Message -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 01:59:19 (EST)
____________Jack -:- Meat of the Message -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:50:34 (EST)
______________VP -:- Jack, be honest -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:46:08 (EST)
______________Katie -:- To Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 00:44:09 (EST)
________________Jack -:- To Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:56:55 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- To Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:13:01 (EST)
____________________Jack -:- To Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:25:52 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- To Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:35:20 (EST)
______________________VP -:- To Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:59:38 (EST)
________________________Katie -:- To VP -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:16:55 (EST)
________________________VP -:- Although... -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:26:59 (EST)
__________________________Jack -:- Although... -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:54:11 (EST)
________________________Jack -:- To Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:35:29 (EST)
__________________________VP -:- To Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:44:10 (EST)
__________ACLU, McCleary Chapter -:- Free at Last! -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:54:16 (EST)
____________Jack -:- Free at Last! -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:23:00 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- Free at Last! -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:19:13 (EST)
__________Jack -:- Meat of the Message -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:16:56 (EST)
____________Jude -:- Meat of the Message -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 17:17:52 (EST)
______________VP -:- Meat of the Message -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 18:29:21 (EST)
________________Jack -:- Meat of the Message -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 21:24:06 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Meat of the Message -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:32:03 (EST)
____________________Gerry -:- Meat of the Message -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:45:29 (EST)
______________________Gerry -:- Massage of the Meat -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 23:32:11 (EST)
________________________John -:- Go baby!! -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 07:55:55 (EST)
__________________________Gerry -:- Go baby!! -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:53:00 (EST)
____________________________Gerry -:- P.S. -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:55:57 (EST)
__________________VP -:- Jack can make fun -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 00:17:00 (EST)
____________________Jack -:- Jack can make fun -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:57:47 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- Jack can make fun -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:22:59 (EST)
________________________Jack -:- Jack can make fun -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:47:35 (EST)
______________________VP -:- Jack can make fun -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:43:37 (EST)
________________________Jack -:- Jack can make fun -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:16:59 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- Jim, our fearless leader -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:37:08 (EST)
__________________________VP -:- WHOA, BOY! -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:37:34 (EST)
____________________________Jack -:- WHOA, BOY! -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:05:20 (EST)
__________________________Gerry -:- To get Jack off my case -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:15:17 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- more to Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 00:58:20 (EST)
____________________Carol -:- more to Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 03:22:34 (EST)
__________________Jude -:- Come in, Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 06:33:34 (EST)
____________________Katie -:- Jack is not so bad -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:04:06 (EST)
______________________VP -:- Jack is not so bad... -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:45:04 (EST)
____________________Jack -:- Come in, Jack -:- Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:17:32 (EST)
________Rick -:- Don't be silly, Jack -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 05:54:18 (EST)
__*>*...b -:- are you fergiting anything? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 01:38:19 (EST)

bftb -:- What would you do? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:24:34 (EST)
__JW -:- What would you do? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:42:20 (EST)
__Memphis Belle -:- What would you do? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:42:58 (EST)
__Katie channelling JW -:- What would you do? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:45:19 (EST)
__Lg -:- What would you do? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:50:43 (EST)
__Keith -:- What would you do? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:25:42 (EST)
__Jim -:- Bribe a few of us -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:37:18 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Bribe a few of us 1000,000$ -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 03:53:38 (EST)
__Nigel -:- What would you do? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:35:45 (EST)
____JW -:- What would you do? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:57:15 (EST)
______Robyn -:- What would you do? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:24:46 (EST)
____Keith -:- What would you do? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:29:13 (EST)
______Keith -:- What would you do? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:31:45 (EST)
________JW -:- Don't Be Humorless -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:58:21 (EST)
__John Hammond-Smyth -:- What would you do? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 05:55:48 (EST)
____Jude -:- Dogs -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 07:39:04 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Dogs? Where is Selena? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:28:20 (EST)
________My Life As A Dog -:- Dogs? Where is Selena? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:05:09 (EST)
__________John -:- Dogs? Where is Selena? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:26:21 (EST)
__________Robyn -:- Dogs? Where is Selena? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:00:42 (EST)
____Richard -:- Elephants and dogs? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 07:59:18 (EST)
____Gerry -:- What I would do. -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:39:57 (EST)
______John Hammond-Smyth -:- What I would do. -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:22:20 (EST)
____Jim -:- Dear John -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:24:31 (EST)
______Gerry -:- Dear Jim -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:00:45 (EST)
________Jim -:- Not looser, just low rent -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:09:52 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- Not looser, just low rent -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:28:36 (EST)
____________Gerry -:- And another thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:40:14 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Sorry, Gerry, just kidding -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:53:54 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- You're forgiven, my son -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:09:07 (EST)
________________Gerry -:- One more thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:13:39 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Brian's fee schedule -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:24:07 (EST)
____________________Gerry -:- Brian's fee schedule -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:38:21 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- From... -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:57:19 (EST)
________________________Gerry -:- From... -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:04:55 (EST)
________________________Brian -:- Oh, I see what you mean -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:50:29 (EST)
______________________Robyn -:- Brian's fee schedule -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:42:04 (EST)
__________________Brian -:- One more thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:32:07 (EST)
____________________Gerry -:- One more thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:07:17 (EST)
______________________Brian -:- One more thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:43:47 (EST)
______________________jw -:- One more thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 18:18:43 (EST)
________________________Gerry -:- One more thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 18:35:35 (EST)
__________________________JW -:- One more thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 18:36:50 (EST)
____________________________Gerry -:- One more thing -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 18:40:27 (EST)
______________________________Carol -:- Seattle -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 23:46:53 (EST)
________________________________Robyn -:- Seattle -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:53:33 (EST)
__________________________________Carol -:- Forester? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:01:50 (EST)
____________________________________Robyn -:- Forester? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:02:55 (EST)
______________________Richard -:- HTML -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:18:44 (EST)
________________________Jude -:- HTML -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:03:30 (EST)
__________________________Richard -:- HTML -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:50:19 (EST)
____________________________Jude -:- HTML -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:56:06 (EST)
______________________________Richard -:- HTML -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:26:12 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- Tell us a story, daddy Gerry! -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:38:28 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Tell us a story, daddy Gerry! -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:21:42 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- Tell us a story, daddy Gerry! -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:31:58 (EST)
______Carol -:- Loosers/losers -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 23:36:17 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Loosers/losers -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:59:35 (EST)
____VP -:- Premie love -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:59:22 (EST)
______John Hammond-Smyth -:- Premie love -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:24:34 (EST)
________VP -:- Premie love -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:52:50 (EST)
________Jude -:- Premie love -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:57:28 (EST)
__________VP -:- Premie love -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:00:28 (EST)
____________Jude -:- Premie love -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:10:43 (EST)
______________John Hammond-Smyth -:- Premie love -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:37:53 (EST)
________________Jude -:- Ex premie love -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:49:06 (EST)
__________________Cheddar -:- Ex premie love -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:51:54 (EST)
____________________Robyn -:- URL and chidren -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:07:16 (EST)
________________VP -:- Whoever you are -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:43:54 (EST)
__________________John Hammond-Smyth -:- Whoever you are -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:29:40 (EST)
____Selena -:- What would you do? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:08:26 (EST)
__VP -:- What would you do? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:29:44 (EST)
____Carol -:- What would Shri Hans Do? -:- Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 00:02:26 (EST)
__eb -:- What would you do? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:17:34 (EST)


Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:07:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: talking with a premie
Message:
Hi guys,

I need your help, if you don't mind. I just got off the phone after discussing Maharaji for an hour and a half with a premie I know. She's active in his organization but I don't want to reveal her identity. Well, the fact is, I promised her I wouldn't. See, what happened is, at the end of our call I told her I was going to start this thread and invite any of you who would to comment. She got me to commit to not disclosing her identity and, in turn, promised to read the posts about a day from now. After all that time I felt kind of stymied and thought maybe you guys could say a few words in her direction.

She's a professional, intelligent, hard-working. She's been a premie since the very early 80s, like maybe 81 or 82 and got knowledge at around 30. She was raised in a religious family but spent the 70s doing Rolfing, Feldenkreis and all the other exploratory trips popular in the 'Me' decade.

She knows almost nothing about the Maharaji years before her time. At least, she knew next to nothing before I told her. What she does know is, of course, what other EV people tell her and basically it's the 'Mata Ji and the Gang of Four' scapegoat thing. For example, she didn't know about Millenium, the pie incident, how many brothers or who they were/are. She didn't know that Maharaji claimed to be God until I read her several quotes where he says 'I am God.' She didn't know how intense things were and how any 'real' premie -- that is, one who was 'serious' about the path and truly trusted Maharaji -- was expected to move into the ashram if they weren't married at one point. She didn't know about the countless ways Maharaji hijacked peoples' lives for joyrides that somtimes ended in death or destruction but always used up at least a few tanks of gas.

So, I told her all these things. I told her about the Lord of the Universe trip and how some people cracked under the pressure but all of us got consumed by it. I told her about the countless efforts I'm aware of to get Maharaji to address his past, mine included.

So, here's the problem: she isn't fazed by any of it. She doesn't think this thing is a cult, doesn't think she is expected to 'obey' Maharaji or that he really makes any demands on anybody. Her answer for all the past stuff is that, while she understands how she might feel as I do if several people she knew killed themselves becuase they couldn't handle doubting Maharji's divinity, or if she spent as long as I did waking up in the dark to throw myself before his altar and silently pray for him to save me from 'Jim', those weren't her experiences and, much as she doesn't want to say it, it's not really her problem.

As for Maharaji claiming he was God, she asks is that really any different than all the people who might not say that particularly, but who still rope people into different religions?

I told her, frankly, I was astounded by the incongruity of her obvious caring nature and her lack of empathy for former premies who got fucked over by Maharaji. She just doesn't know what to say to that other than it simply isn't her experience of the guy.

She's had some fairly big 'service' in her time, yet thinks that EV is on the up and up in all respects and can't accept that the organization's involved in anything fraudulent. It just does what it's mandated to do, disseminate the teachings of Maharaji.

I get pretty frustrated talking with her because, as you can see, I think the pieces should fit a little better. The gears aren't engaging. Indeed, we had a laugh over it; like I say she's smart -- but somehow she just doesn't get it.

Now before you suggest The Guru Papers, I turned her on to it a while back and she's got it right there on her bookshelf. She claims she's read it (I didn't test her!) but just doesn't find it that relevant.

I told her that years from now she might be ashamed that she was so unwilling to take a broader, deeper view of the man she's actively help take his message of 'peace' to the world. It makes her think, I think, but not all that much. She asked me and I told her, yes, I think Maharaji's responsible for everything that followed after he said 'surrender the reigns of your life to me...' She just thinks that was before her time.

Please, guys, what might you say to someone like that that. She's promised me she'll read your comments.

Thanks,

Jim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:09:41 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: talking with a premie
Message:
This is a good one, Jim. Pretty tough nut to crack but I was too. I think the thing is, that if (and I think it's a tremendous if ) your friend is truly getting a big benefit from her involvement then there isn't much you can say. For me, at least, that was pivotal; it wouldn't have mattered in the end, if maharaji was a drunk or a thief, if he could deliver on his promise. Of course, in those days we were promised nirvana and actually given more direction than just 'to enjoy'. We were told to stifle our thoughts, feelings, and dreams, in order to feel 'the bliss'. The price was high, even though I wasn't in the ashram. Now, from what I hear, it's a light fluffy thing (Knowledge Lite) and if you can dodge the requests for donations, it doesn't cost much of anything. And you don't really get much of anything... but a light fluffy feeling, maybe sometimes. Well, that's cool; if that's on your agenda. Personally, I'd be ashamed, then and now. In the 70's it was a big prize, and if it had been true, it showed real moxy to go after such a great thing.

But that's the sign of a good rip-off artist. No one would buy the guru-as-god trip now, and maharaji responded to the market with a lower calorie knowledge and some people are buying. I think maharaji probably realizes that memory is short and people are mostly interested in what's happening now. So it's no surprise your friend is buying. What's the big deal? A little knowledge, a little time, a little schmoozing, a chance to wear nice clothes and maybe network a little. Who's to question?

A premie I used to know asked for knowledge in the early 70's, and said to the mahatma, 'Can I have some knowledge?' He didn't mean anything by it, especially; he was just a laid-back guy. But the mahatma, realizing how precious this 'gift' was, said 'Some knowledge... some knowledge??? This knowledge is the most precious gift in the universe. People live and die looking for this knowledge!' Of course my friend sharpened up his act, and ended up devoting his life. All he ever got was some knowledge and he gave so much of himself. Now you can get some knowledge. You can ask for some knowledge... no big deal. Get some knowledge, meditate some and schmooze a little. What a smart guy maharaji is. Smarter than any of us. He never would fall for any of this. I could go for a good rolfing.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 01:22:09 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim's premie friend
Subject: talking with a premie
Message:
What do I have to say to you?
I trust you (Jim's premie friend) are reading this.
I received Knowledge around the same time as you.
And when I first came across this 'site' one of my first reactions was to feel and think something like....'well, that's back then and I have no personal experience of these things....and they don't really bother me. So what if Maharaji made some boo boo's along the way. And the knowledge and his essential message are what's important.
Since discovering this site, some 7 or 8 weeks ago , and actively participating a fair bit I see things a little differently now.
Let me explain firstly, I came to this site with a lot of gripes against EV and what I perceived as overly controlled premie mind-sets .
I felt especially critical about what I perceived as too much focus on Maharaji himself and not enough inspired and enspirited autonomy from his premies.
I felt that EV was overly submissive and unthinking(unquestioning) as an organization.
And so on and so on, despite the fact that I still kind of thought of myself as a premie(and still do....kind of!).
But what I've realized is that at least need to express myself.....freely....independently.
I'll tell you something......in terms of inspiring and enjoyable communication .....I have experienced more here among the forum people(despite many heated disagreements) than ever occurs in premiedom.
Ok....I feel that allowing myself to look at and question Maharaji and his 'world' has benefited me .
I find myself walking a path that has few certainties.
My advice to you. That depends. Do you really want to absorb peoples views and experiences that will strongly differ from your own and will challenge you ?
You see , from my perspective ...if Maharaji IS BONA FIDE.....
if Maharaji and Ev are generally 'sound' they can stand up to scrutiny.
And if my faith, experience, understanding and so on are 'sound' they too can stand up to the greatest scrutiny.
I am an extremist.
I need to know!
Good luck, Keith.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:30:47 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jim
Subject: talking with a premie
Message:
Hi Jim -
I have to say that I agree with Rick. It's sort of like trying to convince someone that they are in a bad relationship by giving examples of how their partner treated his or her ex-partners. If they're happy, then they're not going to care.

I'm really not interested in trying to convince premies who are happy with their involvement with Maharaji that they have to leave.

I think the most important thing is for us to be here for premies who might be feeling unhappy or unsatisfied, and to just generally let people know that it's OK to leave Maharaji's organization if they want to.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:03:51 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: talking with a premie
Message:
Jim, I think it is a little unfair that you mentioned this woman is very intelligent. Just because you met your intellectual match doesn't mean your heart can't convey it's own truth to her. Just speak from your heart when you are in situations like that.

Mata Judi
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:17:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Jude...what?
Message:
Jim, I think it is a little unfair that you mentioned this woman is very intelligent. Just because you met your intellectual match doesn't mean your heart can't convey it's own truth to her. Just speak from your heart when you are in situations like that.
Mata Judi


Jude,

No one is my intellectual match. Please.

And (whining but sincere) I did 'speak from my heart', whatever the hell that means. Whatever it means, Jude, I did it. I did it because we talked, like I say, for an hour and a half. I did everything.

No, not really. The truth is we scrathed the surface of a big topic, big mainly because of the facutal/anecdotal history I lived or at least am strongly familiar with and she's obvlivious of.

(Sorry, I'm still a little distracted -- Jude, how could a woman be my intellectual match? I don't understand that.)

No, seriously, the reason I did this was to give this person a chance to really hear some of YOUR voices (including Bruce's - ha ha ha!). Kind of like reverse-satsang. We used to go and hear someone, then someone else.... bit by bit we found things we could or couldn't identify with. In the satsang situation, going into the cult, we were hearing ways one could suspend judgment and critical thinking, 'And here, brothers and sisters, was a real neat way I discovered to disconnect MY smoke detector. Might not work for everyone, but it sure worked for me!'.

Pranam all the same,
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 01:21:44 (EST)
From: midnight
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: mania
Message:
Hello mystery person.
Since you are interested in reading about his subject, and Jim
said please, I will type past my bedtime and just wing it.
as usual.

prem rawat, maharaji, shunned his mom for 18 years till she
died. He and two of his older brothers dont talk and his
older brother denies prem(maraji) exists.

He has people line up to kiss his feet.
He led me on that he was god and had us trapped in a way that
is hard to explain in a few paragraphs. Jim says you dont care.
He said in 96 at a directors conference that 'volunteers suck'

He had us shun our families and his personal behaviour
outside of the theatre of the events is loaded with evidence
that not only is he not some person who is better in any way than
anyone else, but by poseing as god-incarnate, he gets in
the way of you and god.

He never talks about god correct? To him, HE is the only
god you need to be concerned about.
He said in 97 that 'remember me at the moment of death'

He comes from the tradition of hindu guru's that think it is
ok to just pretend to be god realised and deserving of
adoration and maharji adds a new twist. HE goes around doing
what can SEEM to be a great humanitarian service, and selflessly,
but if all the stories of his personal benhaviour all over this
site do anything, they show that appearances CAN be decieving
and before you spend your whole life seeing just a part of
him, give yourself a little space for a review.
Or dont, but the situation with his family and MANY people
who believed him more than you and I and were up close with him
and LEFT. Why? because behind the facade is all the flaws god
gives men that dont humble themselves. And did you know
that at the event in LA 98 the song 'lord of the universe was
played? and also, those songs to him are all about how he is
god. Surely you know the songs I am referring to. I left in 97.
After being in since 73.
I object to his going around spreading his misguided
efforts at being helpful to mankind. He takes your own breath
and then plants himself by the songs and videos as the guy
who is god when he is not.

His mom was driven away by his bad behaviour, and she tried to
help him by going public. It was not easy for her to go public
with the announcement that he had 'despicable' behaviour.

Maybe your think the power that made this place is just some oneness and just by feeling with your eyes closed you somehow
make god disappear and that somehow prem rawat knows what
you are thinking or perhaps you have turned a blind eye to
the event excesses and some things you have seen about the videos
that were off. And while turning a blind eye to thedevotion
to the 'master' you dismiss it as spiritual method perhaps?
I am just guessing different things because I dont know you at
all. I actually dont care if you continue, how can I? I have
to move on too, but it is not a good thing for him to pretend to
be god. And stir up a presentation around the breath that has
nothing to do with any god but himself. Amazing, it is not fair
to pretend and use my breath to tie me to him. When the
lifelong evidence is that he is a VERY flawed human.
In spite of the theatre at the events.
YOU came here.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 07:23:09 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net au
To: maniac
Subject: mania
Message:
When are you going to stop these maniacal ravings,bill?

I doubt if even the more reasonable expremies believe the nonsense you carry on with let alone people like me who know that your ' facts' are just vicious little lies and hearsay.

Not so long back you addressed your post to me and it was full of this nonsense. You were so concerned about M's treatment of Bihari Singh . Poor guy, so shocking. Well Bill, I had dinner with
Bihari not so long back, and he sure seemed fine to me and was very happy to be back in USA and around M again. He also told
me about being with Shri Hans when he left his body, and how M was the one who had enough love to carry the ball, and how this was obvious to the devotees at the time.

That his mother and two of the brothers became turncoats and decided to try for power themselves later on is a problem they brought on themselves, and is a very good example of how just by being physically close to the master is no guarantee of clarity.
You and Satpal have a lot in common.

M. did not ban his mother, bill, she banned herself. Got it?

Oh yes, while I'm on this, all those poor old mahatma's that M kicked out of the ashram. I was in India recently, and there were plenty of them there, Happy as Larry. Along with 90000,
yes 90000 premies at Holi.

What a dismal failure M. is. Right Bill and Sir David?

Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:06:14 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: mania
Message:
To tell the truth, Jim, I don't really give a shit what she does. As Maharaji said once 'Sometimes you just have to leave people on the beach, and let the waves soften them up.'

-Scott
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 23:23:33 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: mania
Message:
M also said once something like: if someone is drowning you offer them a hand and you try to save them but if they jump all over you
and may cause you to drown too, then just push them away.
Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:44:10 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: midnight
Subject: mania
Message:
He also had a big graphic come up:
'In your darkest hour, I will be there with you'
yeah, how does he propose to do that exactly? How can he get around, physically, and be at everybody's dark hour? I mean, if he had said this Knowledge would be with you OK, but it said 'I' will be with you.. doesn't anyone see a paradox there? It's another way of twisting things, playing with semantics. It's no suprise to me that premies don't see anything wrong. They are given every opportunity to approach it from whatever justification they are comfortable with..
'Oh, he meant the knowledge when he showed that graphic'
'He doesn't ask us to give up anything'
'He says come 'if you want to' (or,keep in touch, or, if you don't come you are missing out: and anyway, how could someone NOT want to when they are engulfed in the lifestyle?
I wish I could express this better. What I am trying to say is, it's all presented in a way that leaves interpretation wide open and invites justification.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:19:39 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim's premie friend
Subject: Honest evaluation
Message:
The thing of it is we are talking here about TRUTH and PERFECTION. TRUTH being 'that which is constant' and PERFECTION being something absolutely flawless.

In exchange for that we are asked to give our lives. Or at least we used to be asked to do that, or is that only in the bad old days? So what happened to constant?

Next we have the problem of evaluating this exchange. How to evaluate 'infinite perfection' with a finite, and by implication flawed, mind? Right from day one we are warned against using the mind because it will inevitably cause confusion. But what else do you have?

Finally we are told that to 'realise' the knowledge takes time, an open heart and devotion. So any failure or flaw in the experience can be accounted for by our lack of experience, application or devotion. Neat huh!

Given all the above it is no real surprise that premies grow a thick skin around their conciousness to protect it from the obvious and not so obvious flaws in the deal. It is a bad deal but so what?..it's probably my fault..I'm imperfect.

And we havn't even mentioned the desirability of sacrifice yet! Having a bad time? Experiencing real pain? Bouts of depression? That's OK, it's part of your sacrifice..the mind dosn't give up without a fight. Sound familiar?

What about other premies, the top dogs, you know who I mean. Has knowledge informed the way that they treat you or other premies, or ex-premies or non-premies? Or do they still demonstrate their own devotion to Maharaji and their own elevated conciousness by crapping from on high. Does the scuzzy street-kid aspirant with body odour get treated with the same reverence as the elegant and besuited high-rollers with influence? In my day we had to provide special sofas in the satsang hall for the fat-walleted ones. And don't try to pretend that this sort of behaviour is something that 'Maharaji would stop if he knew about it'. He knows.

I can remember one satsang where Maharaji, reacting to complaints from premies about entrance charges and DLM empire building, ranted and raved about DLM getting in the way of his mission. He said that if we were not prepared to obey him he would do it on his own. I believe his actual words were 'I will everywhere and live on salt alone'. Perhaps someone can verify that. The point is that he is not ignorant of the facts but it is convenient to pretend that he is.

I'm sorry, I have rambled and gotten off track.

The final point is this. Do you want to evaluate your deal or are you happy to swallow everything without discrimination? Intellectual arguments are probably useless, knowledge is packaged too cleverly for this. So ask yourself how you felt at the time of asking for knowledge. Do you still feel the same way?

Richard
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:41:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Richard's EKG
Message:
Richard,

Some might say this is the lamest, most worthless partisan thing I could say to you. Well, whatever, I'm going to say it anyway. The difference between how you're communciating NOW and when you first logged on in Maharaji's defence are palpable. (Yes, yes, I know, premies, I'm just thanking him for beginning to doubt Mr. One-and-Only. Look, if that's what you think, why not take off and go start another thread or something. Let's hear about Maharaji's glory a bit, huh? How 'bout some good old satsang? You know, the kind you're not allowed to give anymore? Go for it. Or, if you have a moment and don't want to read my garbage here, how about answering that question I STILL haven't gotten a premie's answer for: are authority figures who punish or refuse to deal with people who don't obey them without question 'authoritarian'?)

So, where was I? Oh yeah, Richard. Richard, if you were to go back to the archives and compare your earlier comments with your current ones, the difference is night and day. AND, here's the part where the premies will all laugh but I mean it, I'm not necessarily talknig content; I'm saying that you just seem to be communicating (thinking?) clearer.

Now, what do I infer from that? Simple, defending Maharaji is so intellectually difficult that it doesn't inspire one to either think or speak that clearly. It's a good time, if there ever was one, to 'dummy up' or, if you can't do that, 'dummy down'. Like getting stopped by a cop, better to not say too much of anything, especially if a body's in the trunk.

I was really touched by your message under the 'vows' thread, as by yours Jude and yours as well, Keith. Keith, what you're telling my freind here is also the clearest message you've ever posted here. I invite anyone to find better. Mind you, I also read what you posted to Nigel and JW and see that you're still, at times, all over the place. Oh well, c'est la vie. But ask yourself, Keith, can YOU see the difference?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:56:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Richard Jude and Keith
Message:
Real feeling, honestly expressed, tends to bring out real responses in others. I think that's why Richard and Jude and Keith's posts in the vows thread are so moving.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 06:30:37 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Richard's EKG
Message:
Jim,

you are right of course. Yes I have re-read my earlier posts and they are embarassing of course, painful to read too. Maybe they are classic examples of attempts to support the unsupportable.

I'm not free of my past yet but I think I have begun. Anger and shame. I got a break by engaging with this forum where nobody wanted anything of me but honest responses. I hope your friend gets a break too.

Richard
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:44:41 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Anger and Shame
Message:
Yup, those were (are?) my biggies too, Richard. We can't change the past and it takes time for the conditioning to drop off. You've made a nice star, though. Again kudos to the site folks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 20:11:42 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: Honest evaluation
Message:
Great post, Richard. Spoken like a true ex-devotee.

Nigel.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:13:03 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: talking with a premie
Message:
If she is willing to live with herself, by saying that she is having a good time and simply doesn't care about what BM has done or how others have suffered in his cult, there isn't much you can say to this person. If she thinks she's having a good time and that's all she cares about, that's all there is to it. Questionable morals and judgment if you ask me, however. I mean, it's quite a defense to say your master is okay because he isn't any more corrupt and fraudulent than some other leaders. What a resounding vote of confidence! If her involvement hasn't reallly cost her anything she is aware of, except maybe in this integrity department, what's the big deal? Still, questionable ethics if you ask me.

Maybe that 70s 'me decade' had more of an effect on this person than she thinks. Actually, I think she likely fits the perfect profile of a premie. Exactly the kind of person that represents BM so well. You know, represented by such statements like: 'I only focus on my own experience, and Maharaji, and that's all that matters. Anything else, no matter how relevent, is simply just noise that interferes with my nice experience.' Kind of sickening, but to each his or her own.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:45:00 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: the 'me' thing
Message:
It's funny that you say the 70's were a big 'me' thing.
I was noticing that when I practice (although I am on the verge
of stopping the whole thing) Knowledge, I really feel that I am concentrating on myself, me, and hoping God will reveal himself to me.

But it's funny, when I just simply pray for other people, I fell closer to God.

Premies will tell me to practise more, if I haven't had anything happen to 'me' yet.

This whole 'me' thing isn't working for 'me'.
I have greater experiences when I am loving others.
When I sit in a room all by myself, and concentrate on 'me'
I not sure what the experience is.

Anyway, I hope all is well with you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:59:28 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: the 'me' thing
Message:
Memphis, I agree completely.

One of the things that was so insidious about the cult, was your 'experience' and whether you were having one or not. As a premie, you were supposed to experience happiness and love. If you didn't, which, by the way, most premies didn't most of the time, it was your own goddam fault and you had better get your 'experience' fixed pronto, by meditating, practicing more.

The only other thing besides your 'experience' that was okay to focus on was Maharaji. Accordingly, one's world sort of closed in, narrowed, until as much as possible besides those two things was eliminated. No other interests were allowed.

It's so strange, really and sad. I always loved to read and still do. In my 20s, while following BM I didn't read one book, except maybe WIGMJ, and maybe one of those stupid Narnia books that were considered marginally okay by premies for kids to read. Unfortunately, I had read them when I was 9 and so they didn't hold much interest for me. I don't think I saw a film either, or go to a concert, or spend much time with my family, or make love (of course not!), or get a career, or put away any money for my retirement. Instead, I focused on my pitiful 'experience' and on trying to get BM what he wanted. Not a very productive decade in my life. But BM seemed to do quite well!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:03:23 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: the 'me' thing
Message:
Yes I relate to that very much. I have always been a very selfish and self-centred person. Putting that chair in the corner for 'me' to practice in was just another way for me to withdraw from activities involving other people. I have seriously noticed myself wanting to live in seclusion, because 'the world' is too painful. I quit two jobs in a row in the past 6 months because I just couldnt handle what was going on. I saw myself as so righteous and pure, I was being tainted by all the greed and power struggles I saw 'out there'.
I think the moment I stopped practicing I felt better about my relationship towards other people. My whole perspective is changing a great deal at the moment.
I am talking more on this Forum than I have spoken to anyone for over five years, I think.
All the communication has been going the other way.
Good to read your posts.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:28:24 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: the 'me' thing
Message:
Very true, Jude. This whole idea that you are 'different' or 'better' than others because you are a premie and have knowledge is also a very insidious thing.

Some time ago, I got a publication that talked about the definition of a 'cult' and I posted them on the forum. There were three characteristics and I think they are instructive:

1. A simplistic solution to problems/happiness/the meaning of life, that is claimed to be available only through the group or its leader;

2. Little or no tolerance for doubting or questioning the simple solution or the group, and particularly the leader;

3. The people in the group get to feel superior to others who do not have the experience/simplistic solution.

I think this fits BM, EV quite well, don't you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:59:17 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: talking with a premie
Message:
I just got off the phone with my friend who is also a premie. She informed me of some upcoming events and of the fact that she has been bringing new people to see videos.

She also stated that maharaji mentioned in Miami that there are people on the web who are saying things that are not very nice about him. He told the gathering that he didn't care.

So I told my friend that I have been participating on the forum anonymously, I plan to 'come out' at some point, and I am no longer a premie. Her vibe after that was just as cold as the time I asked the bishop to excommunicate me from the mormon church.

I told her I don't want to bring maharaji down: I just want truth to guide my life. The experience maharaji showed me was not new, but the requirements of premies way back in the beginning definitely placed his organization into the category of a cult.

What does he offer now? I can't find the hook. What keeps the old premies or attracts new ones? My friend (who may soon be my ex-friend, at this rate) told me that she doesn't question anything; all she knows is that she feels good, connected, at peace when she sees maharaji. I haven't told her yet that I consider it an example of conditioned response. For gawd's sake, she's been doing it for 25 years!

In recent meditations, I have experienced much deeper states of bliss than I ever did as a premie. And when I'm depressed, I don't blame my crazy mind and denigrate myself for not being devoted. The last time I saw maharaji (1996) I slept through his satsang and was blown away that I ever thought it profound. It still works for some, I suppose, but not for me. And quite frankly, I am relieved.

Grateful for the forum so I could get off the fence,
eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:05:35 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
I would like any info on the matter of him being an alcoholic
What other stories do any of you have of him being mean or rude or any other bad conduct?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:52:43 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
Of course he's not an alcoholic. It's just a silly rumour put out by people who are too lazy to practise Knowledge. Do you really think that Maharaji could do so much with propogation and programs if he was a heavy drinker? It's preposterous!

Maharaji has never been rude to me and I have always found him to be one of the most decent, charming and considerate people I've ever known. Why does he arrange programs? For US. Everything he does is for US. Only the lazy people who are too idle and undisciplined to practise knowledge have bad things to say about Maharaji. Who would you rather believe, this bunch of good-for-nothings on this forum, or a person with some decorum and breeding like Maharaji?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:01:47 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
'Who would you rather believe, this bunch of good-for-nothings on this forum, or a person with some decorum and breeding like Maharaji?'

I'm not sure of his decorum, but with all those kids he's certainly into breeding!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:07:55 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: John Hammond-and All
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
I promise this is not me guys, it really is Johnnny Hammond.
Hey Johnny, when are you going to play the Gorge?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:46:33 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
I don't understand how not sitting pushing your eyeballs or sticking your toungue up your nose translates into being idle and lazy and undisciplined. Could you explain? If I do this instead of my usual 2 mile run everyday, will that mean I am 'more disclipined'
Will i suddenly see how great M is just cause I do that?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:54:23 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Selena
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
I don't understand how not sitting pushing your eyeballs or sticking your toungue up your nose translates into being idle and lazy and undisciplined. Could you explain? If I do this instead of my usual 2 mile run everyday, will that mean I am 'more disclipined'? Will i suddenly see how great M is just cause I do that?

Yes. Maharaji tries to keep it simple. Anything more just confuses the monkeys.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:50:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Is he really alcoholic?
Message:
'Who would you rather believe, this bunch of good-for-nothings on this forum, or a person with some decorum and breeding like Maharaji?'

My pedigree would shock you. Maharaji should be from such noble stock! -g. Despite this, I have enough decorum to purchase my own drinks. I also pay my help and speak to them, too. Manners, John, manners.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 03:49:17 (EST)
From: JM
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
I've purchased myself quite some bottles of excellent cognac, and I've been part of teams of premies bringing (for customs sake) dozens of bottles (of cognac) for him at programs, on several occasions. One bottle of cognac would last for years to me!

I've seen him myself drinking so much that you and I wouldn't have been able to stand up after that kind of drink.

He seemed perfectly OK.

That probably means he is the Lord, and he can drink as much as he wants without being drunk.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 05:46:51 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: JM
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
'That probably means he is the Lord, and he can drink as much as he wants without being drunk.'

Well you said it!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 07:54:07 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: M's no alcoholic
Message:
Dear Memphis,

Last year I had the opportunity to wait on table in a fantastic restaurant where M. and his family and lots of premies dined over a period of nearly a week. International chefs prepared wonderful food. There was a bar. Everyone had a great time.

M. certainly didn't overindulge and continued to radiate amazing
energy as always. It was a load of fun!

No, Memphis, M. is no alcoholic.

The idea that he is keeps being spun around here. I guess the theory is if you throw enough shit, some of it must stick.

Regards,
Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 09:21:49 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: M's no alcoholic
Message:
Bruce are you talking about the 'restaurant' at Amaroo? Interesting how it even had a bar, don't you think?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:20:38 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Bruce
Subject: Kanguru Kamp is no resort
Message:
Last year I had the opportunity to wait on table in a fantastic restaurant where M. and his family and lots of premies dined over a period of nearly a week. International chefs prepared wonderful food. There was a bar. Everyone had a great time.

Fascinating experience, Bruce. Interesting spin on it too.

Of course you omitted a few things to Memphis Belle (why bother people with details?).

a fantastic restaurant means the VIP dining facilities at Maharaji's 'Convention Center' in Australia.

lots of premies means that of the thousands who lined up to kiss Maharaji's feet in the privacy afforded by it's remoteness, not ALL of them got to be seated with the Big Guy.

International chefs means that premies who were't Australian were allowed to work there for free TOO.

There was a bar means that the guy who owns the place (Maharaji) is a drinker who knows better than wander too far from a bottle.

It was a load of fun means Bruce has very low requirements for personal enjoyment.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 10:31:37 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Amaroo 97
Message:
And while we're on that topic (Amaroo last year) first thing: this really bothered me. They had a 'tent' set up to practice in but it closed about 9.00 a.m. (approx). So there was no-where to practice during the day. I mean, when I got inspired, and there was nothing to do all day but sit under a bloody umbrella and drink coffee from the 'bistro' while waiting for the next satsang, I actually wanted to practice during that day (so near to Him).
I went down to a quiet spot and saw some other premies wrapped in materials sitting up, obviously practicing. I sat under a tree and covered myself and began to practice. then it started to rain. That evening in the satsang M said he didn't want people to practice like that. He said we were 'monkeys' (monkey see, monkey do - which was an insult, too). In other words, he didn't provide an 'indoor' place to practice all day (but there was an art gallery, sales shop, coffee shop, souvenir shop).

UNBELIEVABLE don't you think? Some people wondered why we couldn't practice (even covered up) outside and somone said he doesn't want (non-premie) visitors to get any inkling of anything strange, like this might be a cult or something.....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:12:39 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jude
Subject: Amaroo 97
Message:
That evening in the satsang M said he didn't want people to practice like that. He said we were 'monkeys' (monkey see, monkey do - which was an insult, too).

Probably wasn't meant as in insult. He maybe just stole that off of the home page on this site [snicker].

In other words, he didn't provide an 'indoor' place to practice all day (but there was an art gallery, sales shop, coffee shop, souvenir shop).

Sounds like he's got his priorities straight. Premies weren't invited there so that they could spend time practicing near him. They were invited there so that they could practice spending money supporting him. And they did.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:17:26 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Funny, Brian
Message:
Brian,

Your two posts here are prety funny. Being jewish and everything (i.e. being jewish AND a lawyer -- bizarre combination don't you think? Ever heard of such a thing?), I like Talmudic-style close-up analysis. Thanks.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:24:12 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Funny, Brian
Message:
being jewish AND a lawyer -- bizarre combination don't you think? Ever heard of such a thing?

Think I have... isn't the yiddish term shyster?
[wild, hysterical snickering]
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:29:42 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Sic 'em, Rick
Message:
Rick,

I don't have time for JDL work. Can you take care of this please?

Thanks,

Your humble servant

Jim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:50:23 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Don't even consider it!
Message:
I try to get along with everyone here (even shysters). But if pressed into service (or even if NOT) there are certain gopis here willing to drag people into a stall and beat them silly! I know. I'm still recovering...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 20:14:35 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Funny, Brian
Message:
Listen Brian, it's okay... for all I know Jim could be a shyster, and maybe a passive shyster. Jackie Mason used to joke about how Jewish guys are big shots at work, but when they get home, they just about have to ask permission from their wives to use the bathroom.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:09:24 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Amaroo 97
Message:
Jude,

The lack of a proper place to practice was a problem for some people at this event, I agree. The tent you speak of was set up for this purpose but as M.agreed to give dashan for those who wanted it, the tent was used for this purpose instead .

Personally, I,d much prefer darshan as its a rare and beautiful experience . Practicing K. a something that can be done any day.

In the past there has always been areas set aside for practice and will be again next time . This was a one off last minute change.

Why not sit down and practice now?

Bruce
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:20:39 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Kanguru Brian is no Kamp
Message:
Brian,

Hey, I didn't see you there. How come you know so much more than I do on this subject?

Keep to things you personally have experienced Brian.

Isn't that what you like to tell me?

Bruce

ps whats petrou got to do with kanguru kamp?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:50:22 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: M's no alcoholic
Message:
Being able to conduct oneself with seeming restraint in a restaurant prooves nothing. Alcoholics are 'Masters' at hiding the truth. It's not about how much or how often one sees the person drunk. And, most people don't see him everyday.
I don't know if he is or isn't and I don't care. It wouldn't change my feelings about him to find out he wasn't. It wouldn't change how i feel about his crazy dog and pony show, it wouldn't change anything.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:22:52 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
I have heard continuous reports by people I respect enormously, that BM drinks quite a lot. They also confirmed that he drank expensive cognac, just like JM says. A couple of those people, including someone who was BM's personal lawyer for a number of years said he was, about 10 years ago, 'an alcoholic.' She seemed to know, but what 'an alcoholic' is the subject of some dispute. As we know, Mishler reports that BM drank like a fish in the 70s and was actually drunk quite a lot. If I heard BM was drinking back in the 70s and early 80s, as a premie, I would have been very surprised that he drank alcohol at all! After all, he was telling us ashramites that we weren't to drink or take any drugs and also be celibate. Why would he dispensate himself?

I personally think a drinking problem is kind of irrelevent, unless you think it demonstrates some kind of human frailty which is only significant if you think he is perfect or something. I once thought that, but now that I no longer do, if he has a drinking problem, he is like a lot of other people. I just hope he gets help for it for the sake of his kids.

I have personally seen BM scream at people in what I would consider a very rude fashion, especially because the people he screamed at were his devotees, and hence very vulnerable to him, and unable to stand up for themselves. These people wer just trying to serve him, and he just lambasted them. They were really shaken -- acted like they had post-traumatic stress disorder after it happened. I consider that a special form of abuse, likely inherent in the master/devotee relationship, and so clearly described in The Guru Papers. I have heard enough comments to lead me to believe BM has a rage problem. I also don't disbelieve that he also can be a very sweet person when he wants to be.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:26:13 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
Sounds just like my dad. Including the expensive cognac. And I did really love my dad, too.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 20:04:26 (EST)
From: nigel
Email: None
To: Memphis Belle
Subject: Is he really Alcoholic?
Message:
The trouble with alcoholics is they give the rest of us drinkers a bad name.

Cheers...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:05:02 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Carry-over from inactive list
Message:
Jim, I thought about it over the weekend and I believe what I said in my post last week captured the defining difference between how you and I perceive Maharaji. (BTW, I've read or heard just about every satsang M gave in the early years so I think I'm as qualified at least as much as you to comment on what he was saying.) I'll quote myself from last week:

This I think is the significant difference between the two camps. One group focused on the happiness factor and continue to get no end of enjoyment from the gift of Knowledge, while the other group focused on other things, all of which made no sense without the enjoyment.

No matter how much you focus on what you've indicated are the 'heavier' aspects of having a master (e.g., surrender, committment, discipline), the underlying message has ALWAYS been to be happy and to enjoy your life. He did used to talk about surrender, etc., and the ashrams were designed to facilitate an understanding of those aspects. But if those are the only things you he
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:11:04 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Carry-over from inactive list
Message:
(I'm reposting the last two sentances of above post as it was cut off)

He did used to talk about surrender, etc., and the ashrams were designed to facilitate an understanding of those aspects. But if those are the only things you heard, you missed the point - which explains a lot.

Jack
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:32:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Don't be silly, Jack
Message:
Jack,

This is ridiculous. I never said I only heard Maharaji heavy us out. I never said I didn't have a lot of good times. I never said Maharaji didn't talk about peace and love a little drops of mercy. Hell, man, do you have any idea of how many times I saw The Sunshine Makers? Do you even know what I'm talking about?

But, Jack, you weren't there and it shows. You weren't there for 'premie maintenance'. You weren't there when the only good premie who didn't have kids was an ashram premie. You weren't there when Nigel, Elaine, Dave, Greg and Alistair... wait a sec, you were there for Alistair. Tell me, Jack, do you think Maharaji and the path of surrender had anything to do with Alistair's suicide? Honestly.

Also, by the way, do you agree with the comment from The Guru Papers I've been trying to get a premie to address, that authority figures who punish or refuse to deal with people who won't obey them with question are 'authoritarian'?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:34:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't be silly, Jim
Message:
Sorry, that was supposed to read do you agree with the comment from The Guru Papers I've been trying to get a premie to address, that authority figures who punish or refuse to deal with people who won't obey them without question are 'authoritarian'?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 20:21:30 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't be silly, Jim
Message:
Also, by the way, do you agree with the comment from The Guru Papers… that authority figures who punish or refuse to deal with people who won't obey without question are 'authoritarian'?

Oxford definition: 'Favouring or enforcing strict obedience to authority.'

Maharaji: 'The door will always be open.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index


Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 01:09:40 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't be silly, Jack
Message:
Was the Sunshine Makers a cartoon with happy characters and sad characters?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:45:18 (EST)
From: Oh my god!
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: I'm having a memory
Message:
Thanks for jogging it, Rick. Just to be sure--was it in black and white?
eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:50:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Oh my god!
Subject: I'm having a memory
Message:
Sunshine Makers

Oh my god too! I had forgotten about that cartoon from the 30s that we all watched. Wasn't the 'happiness' in milk bottles? And din't the happy people drop them from flying bugs they used as planes, onto the unhappy people? Oh, yes.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:41:20 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Sunshine Makers
Message:
Yes! Yes! Yes! That's it!

And what an inspiring message it was. Except that my 'no chit chat' husband and I were vegans back then, so the milk presented a problem for me. I could rationalize the rolls royces and the malibu mansion, but not dairy products.

As wierd as ever (but in different ways),
eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:11:39 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Sunshine Makers
Message:
Dairy products, milk? gee, I don't remember that, though I remember watching that cartoon dozens of times. It summed up our message so neatly. Everyone in 'the world' is in 'their mind' and therefore in love with misery.

'We're happy when we're sad, we're always feeling bad
HOw's life? terrible! that's good!'

The premies were the sunshine makers spreading joy and happiness everywhere.

This was before the heavy devotional period, like in '75 or '76, right? The whole idea of being happy and blissful went out of vogue once we heard what M really wanted from us - which was us to spend our lives in a hut in a forest preparing for him to bless us with one little visit.

Am I exaggerating? I don't think so. One of these days I'm gonna haul out my tapes from those years which I've still got somewhere and listen to them. I'm pretty sure his satsang from those years will support my exaggerated view.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:34:02 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Sunshine Makers
Message:
I'm with you on this one, John. I remember the first time I heard arti--afterwards, a bro brought around the fire/butter thingee for us to warm our fingers and third eyes. He smiled very blissfully at me and said, 'Oh don't mind this. It's just a crazy little ritual we do.' No heavy devotional trip, just little ways of showing affection. A metaphor for the light within. As a hungry, lord-of-the-universe seeking teenager, how could I resist?

BTW the no-milk thing (vegan)was my premie husband's idea. As I recall, he told me that maharaji said that honey was 'bee spit'--so we didn't eat that either. It's a miracle that my oldest 2 kids grew up healthy!

eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:14:59 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: whatever
Message:
So Eb, I'm curious, what happened to this no chit-chat no-milk no-honey ex-hubbie? Is he still blissfully attached to the lotus feet? Or would he fit in here?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 18:35:27 (EST)
From: eb to John,
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Since you asked...
Message:
The man is truly a walking miracle.

He lived on the streets for a couple of years, shot drugs, was in and out of psycho wards, got hit by a jeep and was in an intensive care unit for a month, suffered through DT's several times, and now...

He's been clean and sober for about three years. I went to his wedding two years ago when he married a rather wealthy woman (not a premie). He and I had 3 kids together, the youngest of whom is almost 18. About 15 years ago, I tried to kill him and he broke a few of my bones. Now we're good friends.

I believe he became an ex 10 years before I did. Whenever I mention maharaji to him, he laughs loudly but doesn't really say much. He seems to be ashamed of his past and wants to forget it. I can't say I blame him.

John, were you married to a premie?
eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:33:42 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: eb to John,
Subject: Since you asked...
Message:
Wow, some story!

Well, my one and only ex-premie wife would absolutely kill me if she knew I was talking about her on the internet so I can't give any of the sordid details.

But your ex does sound like an amazing guy, and that's great you're on decent terms with him, since you share 3 kids.

John
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 20:14:16 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Don't be silly, Jack
Message:
Jim, give your head a shake - I've been around for 22 years. I admit I missed 3 rather confused yet exciting years when people had no grounding in Knowledge whatsoever, and they said and did some pretty outrageous things… so what? But I did get updated on the important bits by reading and listening to videos of what M had previously said. The meat of his message hasn't changed one bit since the beginning... that is, 'ENJOY THIS LIFE'.

Jim as far as I'm concerned your litany of people who missed this point is a red herring. Alister for example was screwed up long before M came into his life, and if anything Knowledge postponed his death. It was true for Alister as it is for many others... some just have a harder time being happy than being miserable.

Jack
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 01:38:44 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Meat of the Message
Message:
Alister for example was screwed up long before M came into his life, and if anything Knowledge postponed his death.... some just have a harder time being happy than being miserable.

The meat of his message hasn't changed one bit since the beginning... that is, 'ENJOY THIS LIFE'


I just read your post and can't believe you said that.

Oh. So people like Alistair didn't 'get' the message. Or perhaps they didn't know how to 'obey' this simple instruction? By the way, I always thought the 'meat' of his message is 'What you are looking for is Inside of You'. I heard him say if he ever wrote a book, that is the one sentence it would contain.
So now in our two bits of meat, we have a problem already. So let's say I'm not enjoying life so I Go Inside. By the way, a psychiatrist I saw who also had a Guru suggested not practicing any form of meditation too long when you are depressed, as it stirs things up. You may not escape, it may actually get worse. Ok. So I am Going Inside. I don't see that as the 'life' he is referring to when he says 'enjoy this life', do you? You mean, enjoy a mildly pleasant experience which is rather soothing, and can lead to the feeling that you have 'gone somewhere' but don't know where (into a non-sentient place, as someone else here put it).
So, this is the life!
You can't enjoy the World by the way, because that's not Inside of You and is impermanent and therefore an illusion. It can not bring you true contentment. You know that. The true joy is inside. So, don't enjoy this Life in any real or physical sense, where you actually engage with it, struggle, fight for your rights, want things. Enjoy it in the sense of it not being it. It is really inside. So that strange zone you disappear into with knowledge (sometimes pleasant, sometimes just thoughts) is what you should be enjoying. And what if you are not? What have you?
What say you to this?
And don't tell me about what amazing magical things you experience after 22 years of practicing 2 hours a day because I'm talking about the promise made to people when they are aspirants. The strong suggestion that once they have knowledge, they will be happy.
Suck on that and think again about whether you think some people enjoy being miserable. You asshole!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 01:59:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jude
Subject: Meat of the Message
Message:
Hey Jude - You go, girl! That's exactly how I felt when I received knowledge and started trying to practice it. If I didn't experience the bliss within it was MY fault. So what then? Am I supposed to be condemned forever because I'm too screwed up to experience knowledge? Is it only for the chosen few? Was I not doing it right? Or was I too hopelessly in my mind to ever experience anything.

Anyway, as you pointed out, I did NOT enjoy being miserable, and I found something to do about it that didn't involve Maharaji or knowledge.

Thanks for your post.
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:50:34 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Meat of the Message
Message:
Katie, nobody was pointing a finger at you. Alister had a very nice experience of K and loved M but still seemed to enjoy being miserable. This went way back to before he ever heard of Maharaji. Ask Jim.

You seem to exemplify a common insecurity around practising K. Too bad you laid guilt on yourself for not experiencing what you thought you should. Of course, now you're laying it all on M.

BTW, I'm surprised you supported Jude's uncalled for use of the 'A' pejorative. Katie, the more you hang around these guys the more your standards seem to slide. Just an observation...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:46:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack/ Katie
Subject: Jack, be honest
Message:
'Katie, the more you hang around these guys the more your standards seem to slide. Just an observation...'

That is not 'just an observation', Jack. Let's be honest, here. This is another example of how cleverly a couple of you try to lay guilt trips on people here. Another example was where CD told bb that he was surprised bb was getting so involved in this 'cult'. Jack, are you trying to get Katie thinking or something? I believe that she already is. Are you just trying to make her feel bad? If that is the case you have low standards yourself.

Katie, I know that you and bb are too smart to fall for the guilt stuff, but I just wanted to point it out. Your standards are high, so don't let that make you feel bad, please. BTW, I know that you don't participate in this site and forum to 'lay it all on M.' I believe that you have stated on many occasions that you are here to support people who want to leave M, and that you hold no ill will towards M. Is this correct? VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 00:44:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jack
Subject: To Jack
Message:
Hi Jack -
Obviously you didn't interpret my message the way I meant it. I meant to support Jude in her assertion that it wasn't HER fault that she didn't have an experience of knowledge. I never implied that anyone was 'pointing a finger' at me (as you said), and I didn't say anything about your friend Alister, who I did not know. Although frankly, I don't think people really enjoy being miserable, although it may appear that way sometimes.

Jude and I have discussed this same subject before, and we have very similar feelings which is why I was so vocally supportive of her post. It's quite possible that my feelings did 'exemplify a common insecurity' among those practicing knowledge, and perhaps Maharaji should address that. I certainly felt guilty about it when I tried to practice knowledge, but I don't think it's fair or right to say I'm 'laying it all on M' now. I just don't want other people to lay that same guilt trip on themselves, as it was devastating to some friends of mine. (I luckily was able to get out of it without damage).

I guess it did seem like my answer supported Jude's use of the 'asshole' word (I personally don't like this word, but I'm not going to try and stop other people from using it on the forum.) My intention was to applaud the fact that she assertively spoke up for herself without apologizing. I didn't really see that she appeared to be calling you an 'asshole'. I don't think you are one, and I'm not even sure she meant it as an insult to you personally (you'll have to check with her).

Jack, I have never claimed to be 'impartial' where Maharaji is concerned, so I'm surprised that you think I have - maybe we have miscommunicated somewhere. I also am not sure what you mean by my 'standards'. I'd be willing to discuss this with you if you want.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 12:56:55 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Jack
Message:
Claification noted Kate.

Regarding impartiality, I think it is paramount that one remains impartial, no matter what battle they choose to fight. How else can you keep your integrity?

Jack
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:13:01 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jack
Subject: To Jack
Message:
Jack, I had to get the dictionary out for that one (impartial). 'Partial' means:
1. Relating to or affecting only part (INCOMPLETE).
2. Favoring one person or side over another (BIASED).
3. Having a particular liking for someone or something.

I do have an opinion about M - I don't like or respect him very much. If this makes me partial, so be it. I am not going to stick up for or defend M if I feel like what people are saying about him is true, or that they are expressing honest anger.

However, I do try and be impartial (in the sense of UNBIASED) to whether a person is a premie or an expremie when they post on this site. I don't want there to be a war, or sides - I don't want to categorically flame someone because they are a premie. I have liked a lot (not all) of the premies I have met on this site. But I don't agree with a lot of the premies' feelings about M, and I do want to be able to express that.

So what do you mean by 'impartial'?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:25:52 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To Jack
Message:
My meaning is to weigh fairly words and actions judging them on their merits and not their politics. This means not letting my standards of integrity shift to accomodate someone's objectionable actions just because they share the same camp as me.

Jack
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:35:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: To Jack
Message:
Okay, I understand a little more now. I do try to be impartial on the forum (although NOT towards M), but don't always succeed. I do tend to partiality towards people I empathize with, which is why I was supportive of Jude.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:59:38 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack/Katie
Subject: To Jack
Message:
One more time,
I didn't see the asshole comment. I wasn't attacking Jack because he's a premie, but because I thought that his words about Katie were untrue and his words to Jude were despicable. I had not read Jude's words. Get it? I refuse to have this turned around on me. I do reserve the right to interrupt anyone at anytime who says something I believe is untrue or despicable. I have done this with exs in the past, too, so get beyond it, Jack. I will continue to 'cheer' for anyone who I feel is wronged, not just exs. I think those are high standards myself.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:16:55 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: To VP
Message:
Hi VP -
I understand that, and appreciated your comments about Jack's reply to my post. You did in fact interpret my post, and my position correctly.
Thanks,
Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:26:59 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Although...
Message:
'I didn't attack Jack because he is a premie'
Jack...although I have only noticed the guilt trip thing being laid by CD, you and Participant,so far, and all of you happen to be premies. I do not like it when I see it. It makes me madder than anything else I see here, because I think it is a dishonest ploy and it is worse than namecalling in my book. Do you know what I am talking about? Participant told me that I needed to be careful of who I was hanging around with here-what kind of people these are...CD told bill that he was surprised in him for participating in this cult....you told Katie that her standards were lowering by being here.

Maybe I have missed something due to partiality, is that what you are saying? I can't recall any exs trying to guilt anyone back to M. Have they been guilting you to leave? If so I am sorry about that. If you like your experience, then who am I to tell you otherwise? I do want to support anyone who has the same feelings that I have that M is not legitimate. I can't change the mind of the devoted, but if someone has the same feelings that I do, I feel justified in sharing with them.

No hard feelings, VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:54:11 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Although...
Message:
Guilt trip!? If you call seeing someone doing something that I feel is wrong and I call them on it, laying a guilt trip then it's a wide open freeway that goes both ways. For example, the children at events discussion tried to lay all kinds of guilt on premies. The putting K as a high priority in one's life ahead of more conventional ones guilt trip is another. Let's face it V, what's going on here is inherently ugly... a lot of misunderstanding, finger-pointing, name-calling, taking sides, and insensitivity. It is deemed by ex's to be okay to direct all that stuff at M but you have to realize, in the process you're directing a lot of it at premies who are just following what they believe to be true. You've really got to stay impartial and objective in order to not slide into a pit. You are one who does try, which I give you credit for.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:35:29 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: To Jack
Message:
I do reserve the right to interrupt anyone at anytime who says something I believe is untrue or despicable.

Okay VP, but you make a fool of yourself when you don't do your homework. If you don't mind looking foolish, not to mention the many iterations of retractions and appologies, then go for it.

I will continue to 'cheer' for anyone who I feel is wronged, not just exs.

I look forward to your cheerleading support in the future.

Jack
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:44:10 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: To Jack
Message:
See my last post below...this two conversations in the middle of the thread thing is getting ridiculous.

I also reserve the right to look ridiculous, it won't be the first time.

Speaking of apologies, I think that you glossed over the fact that you did indeed wrong Robyn by saying that you were kidding around with her and with Jim. Maybe in the future when I screw up, I can just tell everyone that I was only kidding around with or cajoling with them and get off the hook. I won't look too ridiculous then maybe. It seems to work for you.

Don't get mad, Jack, I'm just having a little fun. But think about it.

VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:54:16 (EST)
From: ACLU, McCleary Chapter
Email: None
To: Jude, Jim, All
Subject: Free at Last!
Message:
I hereby endorse, embrace, and forever more sanction the free and open usage of the perjorative
ASSHOLE

as it applies to all and sundry premies: past, present and future and the rest of the world at large, with god and this forum as my witness,

Sincerely,

Gerry

Jim, see how easy I back down? It just took a feminine touch to convince me
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:23:00 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: ACLU, McCleary Chapter
Subject: Free at Last!
Message:
This coming from the guy who called us all liars, thieves, and murderers. Geez, if you need someone to hate so much why don't you join the military, or the KKK.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:19:13 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Free at Last!
Message:
Geez, Jack, first Jim and now you. I'm gonna eat some worms.

I thought we were friends...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:16:56 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Meat of the Message
Message:
Jude, did you miss taking your prozac? Frankly you're not worthy wasting a civil discussion on. Enjoy your misery.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 17:17:52 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Meat of the Message
Message:
Now that's low standards.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 18:29:21 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Meat of the Message
Message:
Jude,
I agree. Don't take it too hard, Jude. Jack here has made fun of Robyn, Katie, and now you. I think that this qualifies him for the electronic bully category that CD was talking about. Take care,
Knight in pajamas,VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 21:24:06 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Meat of the Message
Message:
VP, now I'll make fun of you. You win the award for cheer-leader of the month. But before you go too overboard supporting the home team, please take note of who's knee-jerk reaction it was to start calling people an asshole. Or have you, like Katie, given up your impartiality for the cause? (Gee, some would say that's what people in cults do.)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:32:03 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Meat of the Message
Message:
Howdy Jack,

Jack how 'bout saying something meaningful once in awhile so we could have something to discuss, instead of getting hurt feelings over a few words tossed around (like I do sometimes)?
A little meat with the potatoes, so to speak...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 22:45:29 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Meat of the Message
Message:
OK, I'll start. What is it that attracts you to devotion to Maharaji?
Do you think he has a 'lock' on this type of knowledge or understanding? Wouldn't it be nice not to HAVE to meditate, HAVE to donate, HAVE to attend these programs? Think of all the time and energy you would have to explore 'Jack' and his relationship to the world or cosmos, if you wish. Wouldn't it feel more natural, more like freedom? Talk to me Jack, so I can understand. Thanks
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 23:32:11 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Massage of the Meat
Message:
For me it's the simple pleasures that mean the most. A good meal of sweet corn and dover soul, the warmth of my ole cat Bocephus on my lap, sippin' a Pyramid Hefeweisen through a slice of lemon, Patty's sweet breath on my neck... Not videos, programs and forced 'donations'. Hey, I didn't mean to get personal here, just testing to see if Brian's fix on the bug worked...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 07:55:55 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Go baby!!
Message:
Yikes!
keep going Gerry, let's hear more about that sweet breath upon the neck...also, what the heck is 'dover soul', is that some kind of spiritual meal, like holy communion?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:53:00 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: John
Subject: Go baby!!
Message:
'dover soul', is that some kind of spiritual meal, like holy communion?

Only if you're Catholic! (Remember fish on Fridays?) I guess it was one of those 'happy mistakes' Carol mentioned. It should have read 'sole' instead of 'soul'.

And then she reaches down and...Oh never mind.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 09:55:57 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: John
Subject: P.S.
Message:
Let me know if you need an explanation for Hefeweisen
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 00:17:00 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Jack can make fun
Message:
'VP, now I'll make fun of you'
Jack,
It was bound to happen sooner or later. Hope it made you feel like a big man.

I guess I really get under your skin, eh? I would say that calling someone the 'cheerleader of the month' would be as bad as calling someone an asshole, except that asshole is less socially acceptable. To tell someone that they aren't worth the time to speak to them is pretty slimy, too.

I missed the asshole post, sorry I don't know what you are referring to, but I will have a look. I thought that what you said to Katie was untrue and what you said to Jude was unkind. If that is 'cheerleading', I'll get out the pom poms pronto. BTW, what is your cause? It surely isn't being kind to others. Too bad that Maharaji never talked to you about that.

I'm sick of arguing with you, and besides I am right.

VP
Values kindness more than partiality
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:57:47 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Jack can make fun
Message:
Whoa VP. Where's that laisse-faire boyish bravado we've come to know and love? I didn't realize I was striking so close to the bone. Did you have a bad experience with a cheer-leader once?

I missed the asshole post, sorry I don't know what you are referring to, but I will have a look.

I would caution you to do the background check before you blindly support your colleagues with such partiality. My whole point to Jude was her completely inappropriate behavior in calling me an asshole, and to Katie her seeming support of Jude doing so. Are you saying kindness means not defending yourself against unfair attack?

BTW, without impatiality there can be no kindness.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:22:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Jack can make fun
Message:
I'm butting in here, I know, but I want to say one thing to you, Jack. I really don't like name-calling, and I have seen some huge and boring flame wars on here caused by name-calling. I know that some people on here think name-calling is OK, so I don't jump on it except on certain occasions.

Jude called you a name, and you reacted by insulting her - to me this just escalates the conflict. (Maybe this is OK with both of you, I don't know.) IMHO it would be more effective if you had told Jude what you told VP above about - that you didn't appreciate her 'asshole' remark, and that you thought it was inappropriate. To me this would be a better defense than insulting Jude in return.

Katie

P.S. If you and VP are going to start discussing bad experiences with cheerleaders, could you please adjourn to the men's room?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:47:35 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Jack can make fun
Message:
I agree Katie, it's quite boring. It is however quite consistent with every person who posts to this site to defend themself when they are being attacked - and even when they are not. VP for example reacted thinking he was being attacked with the cheerleader comment when he was being cajoled. It was my way of pointing out that he'd just supported the abuse of one of his colleagues - something I wouldn't have thought he'd do.

I'm not a saint and will probably continue to defend myself under such conditions, as I'm sure will you.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:43:37 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Jack can make fun
Message:
Before we sink into the abyss down here, just thought I'd mention that 'having a particular liking for someone or something' Katie's third definition of partial, would make you partial. Don't you have a particular liking for Maharaji? I know that I have a particular liking for Katie, so that does make me partial and I am not going to deny that. I think that you are wrong about your last comment. I have partiality about many things, I can assure you. For one thing, I am very partial to Lobster. Does this make me unkind? No. I am partial to classical music and to folk art, does this make me unkind? No. I am partial to my family and friends. Does this make me unkind? No! But if someone attacks them, yes, I probably will be. There's a little of that bravado for you:)

To answer your question here, I actually thought your cheerleader comment was pretty humorous and I think you are right about it. It really didn't hurt my feelings, BTW. I was just trying to point out that name calling is name calling. Asshole, cheerleader, etc. Nouns, adjectives, whatever. I like to stick up for the people I like when someone says something mean to them. Sorry that I didn't defend you with the asshole comment, but I didn't see it and also I don't know you. You could be an asshole for all I know. Since Katie says you aren't, I'll take her word for it, OK? Sorry I jumped in on you without reading the whole thread. I will try to be more responsible in the future.

Maybe you should be more responsible, too. That 'how do you keep from getting sick' comment about Robyn to Jim the other day was just out of pure meanness, Jack. Were you defending yourself from being called an asshole then? Were you responding to an argument that you disagreed with, or were you just picking on another human being to be nasty or clever?

I had some experience with cheerleaders in my time, and I can assure you that none of it was unpleasant:)

No hard feelings, Jack, but a little partiality.
Not afraid of a guilt trip, VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:16:59 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Jack can make fun
Message:
Yes, we all are partial to certain things but it can't override objectivity. When I said there can be no kindness without impartiality, I meant you can't let your politics get in the way of being kind. Example, hating all Muslims because of the actions of a few exremists. Or calling premies murderers, thieves, and liars just because someone doesn't agree with Maharaji's teachings.

My 'getting sick...' comment was poking fun at Jim more than Robyn - although I was poking fun at her too. Knowing Jim as I do I find it quite humorous when you guys put him up on such a pedestal. I think Jim thought it was humorous too.

BTW, What do you do when people senselessly attack your lobster?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:37:08 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jack
Subject: Jim, our fearless leader
Message:
Hi Jack,
I think you already know this, but I, for one, don't have Jim on a pedestal. I don't think VP does either. I really like Jim, but we also have gotten into some big arguments on and off site. I think that sometimes people who are new to the site see Jim as the spokesperson for the site because he is so vocal in his opposition to M. I don't think Jim even wants this role, but he does get thrust into it.

Robyn is a genuinely nice and kind person, and the post she made to Jim was typical of her 'reaching out' to people on the site, IMHO, and wasn't an idolizing type thing. She is just very spontaneous and friendly - we need more people like that around here.

Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 15:37:34 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: WHOA, BOY!
Message:
Me putting Jim on a pedestal?? You have missed something here. Haven't you noticed that we are currently in competition for dominant male on the forum? Sheesh!

Well, all's well that ends well, huh?

As long as they do not attack my lobster with their fork, things are usually cool.

Jack, I have been known to LOVE premies very much. I do not discriminate based on titles, but mainly based upon actions by the individual. Just because you have a different idea than I do, doesn't mean we are mortal enemies. Just don't attack my lobster with your fork.

Have a good one!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:05:20 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: WHOA, BOY!
Message:
I know what you mean about those forks. How big a lobster do you have?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 16:15:17 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: To get Jack off my case
Message:
... calling premies murderers, thieves, and liars just because someone doesn't agree with Maharaji's teachings.

Did I say that? Not premies silly, just the 'Holy Family'

Alright so maybe murderers was a little strong. But what about all the premies driven to despair who committed suicide? Doesn't M carry some responsibility for that?

Besides, Jack, I think I'm over it. People can change, can't they? Sometimes, in the twinkling of an eye, shifts happen.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 00:58:20 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: more to Jack
Message:
Dear Jack -
In defense of Jude and VP -

First, I have to say that I think 'did you miss your prozac?' is an offensive remark. I personally take SSRIs (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors - like Prozac), and so do a few other people on the forum. I am sure you know people who do too. They aren't sedatives or tranquilizers, and to imply that Jude somehow needs to take some kind of drug in order to communicate is belittling to her. If you're mad about something she said, why not tell her directly?

I also am not sure WHY you called VP a cheerleader - maybe because he tries to be supportive? I don't think that's so bad.

Also, I think both Jude and VP are worth spending time on. They are both nice and honest people who have made an effort to communicate with the premies on this forum without just flaming them. They lose their tempers at times, just like I do and just like you do - so what? I still think you might be able to have a conversation with them (or even with me) WITHOUT calling them names. I know that you're able to communicate without the namecalling - I've experienced it - so why do it? Just asking.

Regards, Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 03:22:34 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: more to Jack
Message:
Maybe jack is the anal sphincter of a bird, which means none, so the droppings fall without concern or ability to control!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 06:33:34 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Come in, Jack
Message:
Jack I admit I had a knee-jerk reaction, but I am not going to apologise, except to say I really was attacking your statement, which made me very angry, rather than you (I dont even know you). I normally don't use that word, by the way. It is a new addition to my vocabulary. It really worked for me to use it. I suppose I should have said - I strongly disagree with you. I agree, that would be more civil and respectful. But it's your attitude I don't respect one bit. And, I am not on Prozac, okay? (geez I'm getting mad again. Now I feel like calling you a ££'$%!
Where is all this anger coming from? Ok start again. I am angry at your minimilisation of someone's suicide. Your, oh well, he was nothing anyway kind of attitude. Trivialising something like that is so manipulative and dishonest. Where is your heart, by the way? Are you so out of touch with yourself? What if you felt so bad that you f...ing hung yourself? (In the house of the Lord, too)

Do you have to make yourself so callous just to defend Maharaji? Is it a kind of spiritual cool? Do you value your own life very much?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:04:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: everyone
Subject: Jack is not so bad
Message:
This is not an attempt to stop anyone from expressing their anger! I have had that done to me all my life, and I hate it. But I did feel a need to say the following:

I can understand the negative reactions to Jack after I read this thread, but I do want to say that I have had some e-mail conversations with him and he was reasonable and even nice. Sometimes the public nature of the forum makes people appear to be quite confrontational and it's easier to have an actual conversation with them off-line. Maybe Jack is angrier now than he was before, so this wouldn't be possible. How about it, Jack?

Regards from Katie
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 13:45:04 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Jack is not so bad...
Message:
...maybe not, but according to the dictionary, he may be partial.
VP
rah rah ree! (snicker)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 22, 1998 at 14:17:32 (EST)
From: Jack
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Come in, Jack
Message:
Jude, saying 'it really worked for me to use [asshole]' is a cop-out. It was rude and totally uncalled for. You didn't know Alister, I did - and so did Jim. It was no secret his swings into depression. His seeming rejection of the possibility of being happy. I talked to him on numerous occasions and often felt a level of frustration. I'm not a psychiatrist so I can't tell you the technical explanation but be seemed to be more comfortable in his misery than happiness. (BTW, that was the point of the cartoon, 'The Sunshine Makers'.)

Why do you feel you have to sugar coat words when talking about such things? I work in a hospital and the people who are around that stuff all day call a spade a spade. There's nothing disrespectful about it.

Yes I do value my life very much.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 05:54:18 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: Don't be silly, Jack
Message:
Maybe my memory's wrong. I remember maharaji making a big deal, at a program, about ' enjoy guru maharaj ji, don't enjoy yourselves.'
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 01:38:19 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Jack
Subject: are you fergiting anything?
Message:
Gee whiz Jack, I kind of dont recall being supported in
my personal attempts at being happy by either the instructors,
those giving endless nightly satsang, m himself at events,

I dont think arti is exactly a happy thing expessially
since m turned out to not be the ultimate ruler he said he was.

I guess his mom missed the message also. And bill patterson
obviously lost his way all by himself, and Jim hession,

And of course married premies were encouraged to be happy
by m at the events. expesially monday afternoon hans jayanti
79.

And personal happiness was part of surrender. I know I personally
was happy to be free of my family and friends and my
youth and my freedom to chose my own lifestyle. Ah yes
it is all comeing back now. Maybe it is too hard to
cave in to JIm. Just post here under a different name and
root around here and see if your memory becomes more clear.
and ask god for help seeing if m is really god or not.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:24:34 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
What would you do if you were in M's shoes?I've been thinking about this.This'll take a great leap but if you can bear with me:Pretend that you're M,and you sincerely believe in what you're doing and you've become aware of this site and the depth of animosity here.You've heard scattered reports of dissatisfaction over the years but never anything like this.

Now,if you're for real then it has got to be a mind blower
for you and it'll probably take you a while to begin to digest it all.Once you've digested it some,you'd probably want to reach out to those people in some way.Right?I know I would.

See this is the thing that I can't figure out about M.If he so loved his devotees(and in the guru biz once you take it upon yourself to have a devotee I think you've got to feel responsible for guiding them to some degree,even when you think that their mind has gotten the better of them.I mean the guru should be above his devotees petty thoughts right?When a kid starts getting really angry at its parent and says 'I hate you' the parent usually loves the kid all the way through its angry period anyway and when ears/mind are open again,or even while still closed, the parent can explain to the kid why they did what so angered them)then why on earth doesn't he address the grievances out there?I certainly would want to and I'm not even a guru!

At this point,what can he do?Is there anything he can do or does he not bother because he thinks it'll go nowhere?I just don't know.I know a premie would say 'He won't bother because it would be a tragic waste of his precious time;he's way too busy spreading this knowledge.Do you really think he can be bothered with this nonsense?'

What's a guru to do?Maybe he does care but figures 'damned if I do,damned if I don't,so I had better just stay focused on spreading this knowledge' If you were M's PR person and you thought that he really wanted to explain how he sees all the grievances,and he came to you and said'How can I do this?',what would you suggest he do?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:42:20 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
Well, I think any guru with normal intelligence and some integrity would try to address the concerns of his disgruntled devotees. But I doubt BM would ever do that, because I don't think he has any integrity and really hasn't a clue how to deal with people like us. When we were just a bunch of unconnected ex-premies, it was no big deal. But now, technology allows these people to connect up, compare notes, and find out they have a lot of the same problems with the perfect fat guy, and feel ripped off in many of the same ways, although we might each express it differently. They also are living witnesses to his past, for which I think he is profoundly embarrassed. This is a new and unique confrontation for his mastership.

But there are also a couple of assumptions in your post that I don't agree with. For example:

If he so loved his devotees(and in the guru biz once you take it upon yourself to have a devotee I think you've got to feel responsible for guiding them to some degree,even when you think that their mind has gotten the better of them.

I never saw any evidence that BM 'loved' his devotees. He paid practically no attention to them, except at big programs, and except when he wanted something from them, usually money. The vast majority of his devotees he never even met and certainly didn't even know their names. I lived in his ashram for 9 years and he never spoke to me, even once, during that entire time. And I think I was the rule rather than the exception.

I think he's afraid that if he does address his critics, it will just give us more credibility among his dwindling number of followers, and give them a reason to pay attention to us and to split from him. And he knows he can't answer the questions anyway. If he admits past mistakes, he admits his imperfection, stupidity, selfishness, or worse. If he doesn't, he will look pretty arrogant and out of touch. He is in a tough spot.

But I think if I was in M's position, I would feel a lot better about myself if I came clean and told the truth. And also admit that I do owe something to people who gave me their absolute everything for a portion of their lives. But I'm not him, obviously.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:42:58 (EST)
From: Memphis Belle
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
I do not want to put myself in M shoes.
I am on the verge of becoming an ex-premie
But it is not because M hasn't acknowledged any of my grievances
(I haven't had any being so new, and never been in an ashram.)

I am on the verge because there are too many things that I see wrong with M.

Him being on a stage all the time looking down at us.
Him have very expensive things.
Him all over the videos, the calendars, the coffe cups, the T-shirts, the pictures, and on and on.

I want GOD.

Not some man who is unaproachable.

If I was in his shoes, I would have a very big ego, that is for sure.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:45:19 (EST)
From: Katie channelling JW
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
Hey bftb - This is a post that JW wrote about a month ago. I thought it was a great post at the time, and I hope JW doesn't mind if I repost it. Someone else irreverently titled it:

JW's TEN COMMANDMENTS

Well, I have a lot of suggestions, but let me limit myself to 10 as a start:

1. Give up a lot of the fabulous wealth and use the resources to let more people know knowledge is available. Live a more 'uppper-middle-class' lifestyle. Get rid of the ridiculously costly plane and travel by commercial airliner (first class, of course). Sell a couple of the residences, the fleet of luxury cars, etc. and tell the premies he doesn't want that stuff, he really is focused on spreading knowledge and put his attention there.

2. Actually associate directly with the premies, and anyone else who is interested. Do not just associate with them only in controlled programs and through videos. Walk among them, talk to them, get to know them personally, don't continue to wall himself off from others, thus leading to his identity problems, and the fact that he can't deal with those who disagree with him.

3. Let the premies give satsang. Let them speak publicly about the experience they claim to be having, and tell them to be honest about their experience, including expressing any doubts or misgivings they might have.

4. Don't avoid the press or the internet. Use them to let people know what he's doing and to answer questions directly.

5. (Very important, absolutely essential in my view). Speak openly and honestly about his past, and about such things as lord of the universe, the ashrams, the fact that a lot of people got hurt following him, and take responsbility for it, and speak about it honestly and openly, saying he's sorry for that, and what steps he has taken to prevent it from happening again. Meet with former devotees and address their concerns directly, instead of avoiding or ignoring all such contacts and refusing to take responsibility, instead blaming the premies, the ex-premies, or anyone other than himself. Open himself to direct questioning by ex-premies and others, and answer his goddam correspondence, like any other responsible person. In short, come clean and show some integrity.

6. Do not continue that ridiculous, hindi practice of giving darshan and doing that ridiculous dance at programs. I think it comes from his pathological desire to be worshipped, and from the 70s premies who want it, and he does it to keep them, and their money, involved. It is completely unrelatable to the vast majority of normal people.

7. If we wants to spread knowledge to people, he is going to have to let more people than only himself reveal it.

8. Give up the 'devotion' and 'gratitude' stuff and be straight with people, saying openly and directly, and unequivably, that he is NOT god, he is NOT the perfect master, he is just a human being, and what he is here to do is reveal meditation techniques to people that might help them in their lives and give them a nice
experience. Period. No hindi devotional trip, no sappy devotional love songs, none of that. Say openly that that stuff in the past was a big mistake and he is not an object of worship, and, in fact, it was a big error to get into that like he has.

9. Make it very clear that he is into the personal development of human beings, and that he, and his knowledge, might be just one step in the process for people. Encourage people to move on from following him when they have outgrown what he has to offer. Be honest about it and don't try to create a devotional, personality cult, with him, as opposed to knowledge, at the center, which is what he does now.

and

10. Miscellaneous: Go on a diet, get a little exercise, brush up on his English skills, put less grease in his hair, stop sticking his daughter up there singing incestuous love songs to him, tell the premies to get lives and stop flying around to his programs, get out of the video business and let the premies speak, get rid of the trinkets sold at programs like pictures, tote bags, chocolates, coffee mugs, and other useless, but profitable,
paraphinalia. Also, I suggest he go into some intensive psychiatric therapy to deal with his megalomania problem and to help him cope with accepting his true identity, as opposed to the inflated one that he seems to hold. Also, join AA or otherwise look into that drinking problem. But he might have a little problem accepting a 'higher power' because I think he believes he is as high as it gets.

Well, that's a start.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:50:43 (EST)
From: Lg
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
I think M's attitude is: accept the situation the way it is (with no questions asked) or goodbye. He sais he loves his premies... personally I think he doesn't care about the damage he caused to some people or this forum wouldn't exist.

If m would come up and gives his appologies, etc. would you go back to him?

I wouldn't. because he has nothing to teach I don't already know.
He is not a Savior, or God, or anything like that, and the changes that occurred within me (when I used to practice) occurred by my own trust in myself, and effort.

I personally don't care what he could think of this site, and I wonder why you do. Do you?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:25:42 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
bftb,
Yes, I asked the forum people more or less the same question a month or so ago.
I'd like to throw this back on you .
What would you do?
Or how would you advise Maharaji if he asked you?
Keith.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:37:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Bribe a few of us
Message:
First, bftb, I think this is a great question. Why? Because it's a fun question. It's juicy. I'm a little surprised with Lg (you guys have the worst names I've ever heard of by the way. R2D2 is better. Gina Lollabrigida is better still. I'm sorry, Mr. and Mrs. tb and Mr. and Mrs. g -- or is it Monsieur and Madame g? -- I think that once your kids get over the guru thing they're going to start coming after you!). Anyway, Lg is puzzled by your curiosity about Margie's thought process. Frankly, that's a fascinating question for me.

So, what would I do? Well, he is most certainly damned if he do and damned if he don't. So what's left? How about co-opting a few of us? Imagine Brian, Anon and Katie, for example, posting one day that each of them had the same dream the night before in which Margie came and confirmed his divinity for them? We all laugh as if that's absurd. Then, the next day JW says the same thing.

Now regular people would say this is preposterous, some sort of joke or whatever but first, Katie never jokes and second, we were premies don't forget. I don't know about you, but I didn't take my winter coat to Millenium. (Or did I? I can't remember. But I might not have.)

So then what if JM posts a few days later. He's had the same dream, only this one's in French! The Lord has actually learnt a foreign language. Now tell me that even Scott and Nigel wouldn't be thrown for a loop on that one?

No, I think that Maharaji could probably shut this whole thing down for under a million U.S. Just an idea.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 03:53:38 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Bribe a few of us 1000,000$
Message:
would be fine for me

I would indulge in something else, no doubt

Mr Rawat, call my lawyer, he'll arrange an agreement ....
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:35:45 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: bftb
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
If I were the living Satguru, I think I would have no real option but to Love my former devotees just the same, because they still have that divine spark within them; because they once came to my lotus feet when they were in desperate need of sucker - sorry, succour, and lotus feet, and drank deep at my eternal well of well-being. In fact, I am that perfect Well Being, even if I haven't been well lately - what with the coffee, the booze and the fags and the sick wife... What was the question, anyway? - excuse me a minute while I consult my astrologer...

That was it... Love them eternally, just the same. It's just their crazy minds putting up a smokecreen between themselves and that true reality, the blah blah and the whatsit.. Kabir says that 'He who truly understands and devotes his time and earnings will one day truly see the sun shine from my posterior...' No he didn't! Who wrote this? - he's fired, as of now!

(Oh, you mean he's quit already? shit. Not gone over to the website? - Jesus help me, please.)

Fetch me a beer, somebody...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 20:57:15 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
Here are some suggestions for what BM might do:

1. BM could become a born-again Christian and claim that he was in the clutches of the devil when he claimed to be god, asked for total surrender, and propogated the ashrams. Now that he's saved, that's all in his past and all is fogiven. He then could begin a career as a televangelist;

2. He could move to Argentina (or maybe Paraguay) and live on some remote property, hoping that Argentina would follow its tradition never extradite him to answer for his crimes;

3. He could work as an astrologer for the rich and famous;

4. He could tell all his followers to become Scientologists and get a big kickback from the Church of Scientology, and retire to Aspen with the proceeds;

5. He could tell all the ex-premies that they were right about him, but now that's changed, and if they come back he will make them all mahatmas and make the premies kiss their feet at every program;

6. He could write poetry for Readers Digest;

7. He could record and perform music for Romper Room, or maybe Sesame Street;

8. He could give seminars on how to speak for 40 minutes and say nothing of any importance, save for a few simplistic platitudes, and still make everyone think you are profound;

9. Remember 'dirty dancing?' He could begin a career teaching a new dance craze, 'Krishna Dancing.'

10.He could move to Indonesia and try to help out that Suharto character, who could use some divine intervention at the moment.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:24:46 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: JW
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
Dear JW,
That was wonderful! I think #1 would be the easiest for him to keep his current lifestyle, womanizing, money, etc. but #8 is my favorite. Maybe Scott would like to take the course. Not that he doesn't have any content for his seminar but it could ease the tension!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:29:13 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
Sorry to speak in French Nigel,
but you really full of bull-crap!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:31:45 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
You too, JW!!
YUK!!!!!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:58:21 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Don't Be Humorless
Message:
Now, Keith. I know you have a sense of humor, just lighten up. It was all meant in fun, you know. I'm sure Maharaji would think it was funny, too. Does he ever laugh at himself? Can't recall it in my experience, but let's give him the benefit of the doubt.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 05:55:48 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
If I were advising Maharaji then I would tell him to ignore this silly web site. It's just a lot of hot air and will never amount to anything. But then he doesn't need my advice because he already has come to that conclusion. He is the elephant and you are all the dogs who come out of the village to bark at it as it goes past. He doesn't even need to turn His head.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 07:39:04 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Dogs
Message:
Maybe the dogs are barking at something the elephant needs to take a look at.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:28:20 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jude
Subject: Dogs? Where is Selena?
Message:
Dear Jude,
Seeing your subject, Dogs. Is why I started reading this thread. Still working at catching up! It's like laundry and dirty dishes. If you don't do it they just keep piling up!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:05:09 (EST)
From: My Life As A Dog
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Dogs? Where is Selena?
Message:
I'm here Robyn. I may need to copyright my dog identity if people are just going to use it any old way without my permission.
(anybody ever seen that movie by the way?)
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:26:21 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: My Life As A Dog
Subject: Dogs? Where is Selena?
Message:
That was the movie in Norway, or Sweden or something? Great movie! The kid's face was soooo sweet!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:00:42 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: My Life As A Dog
Subject: Dogs? Where is Selena?
Message:
Dear Selena,
I rented that movie and it started a new rule in my house. My girls hold me to it too. If the movie isn't deemed to be worthy after 1/2 hour out it comes! But I loved the part at the end when he is lying in the gazebo making dog sounds!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 07:59:18 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Elephants and dogs?
Message:
and what conclusion would you come to John?

It strikes me that you probably don't come from an area with too many villages containing elephants. Which implies that you are simply regurgitating some hindi homily from who knows which source.

Try to put the analogy into a more universal context.

Richard
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 11:39:57 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: What I would do.
Message:
Hi John,

Glad your here. I takes courage to be honest with yourself. And you can do it, too.

All the layers and layers of conditioning peel away to reveal what's really there. Use your mind and keep asking yourself, 'who am I, really?'

The answer you get will make you laugh and you can let go of the guru trip and lots of other stuff, too. And guess what? You get to keep the bliss!

PS Are you the black Johnny Hammond or the white Johnny Hammond and when did you marry Ms. Smyth? I really love your music, man.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:22:20 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: What I would do.
Message:
Well I'm a kind of light brown Hammond, having been in the sun recently. Now the Smyth family go a long way back and have links with royalty, you know.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 12:24:31 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Dear John
Message:
John,

I love your posts! There must be some people reading this from time to time, premies, thinking, wondering if we're all just empty losers (hey, JM, Robyn and anyone interested, it's losers, not loosers). But I can't help but imagine that when they see some asshole like you spell out that Maharaji-bred disdain, they have to wonder, 'is that true? Is he really so important, and these other human beings who DARE cross him so out of line?' I picture you as a haughty sycophant in the court of Louis XIV, Monsieur Hammond-Smyth. It's rich, really rich.

Keept it up, bro'.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:00:45 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dear Jim
Message:
Jim,

I love some of your posts, but when you call people assholes, you come across as looser, which I know you are not.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:09:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Not looser, just low rent
Message:
Gerry,

Yes, thank you and I appreciate your criticism. May I say this, though? I, personally, don't really like the word 'asshole'. I never did. It's coarse as hell and when people started using it commonly (cus now just about everyone seems to say it now and then), I was disappointed. Now, however, I've grown used to it enough that I use it all the time. See, I think YOU'RE an asshole and I don't even know what I mean by that. Asshole, asshole, asshole....

No, I don't mean that, of course.

Really? Do you think it makes a difference? I just like talking profanely to the righteous at times. It's a thing, you know. I'll tell you one thing, my girlfriend's going to read this and I know who's side she'll take and it won't be mine. So what's that mean? You want her? You can have her. I don't need nobody.

Outta here, all you ....

Okay, see I didn't say it.

Really? You don't think I should say it? I mean, never? Can't I say it sometimes? Sometimes, I'm asking, Gerry, sometimes? Huh? Just a little? PLEASE?

Laurie, I was kidding, don't go. Laurie? Laurie?

Now look what you've done, Gerry? Are you happy yet? Just 'cause some asshole doesn't buy the guitar they ordered, what? You're gonna ruin my life too? Is that it? Is that what's going on?

Laurie, I'm sorry. Laurie? Where'd she go? Aw pooh!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:28:36 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Not looser, just low rent
Message:
Jim,

What was that story you told about the wind and the sun? You're blowing a little too hard, bro.

But that's just my opinion and after all, you did start this forum and it is bearing fruit, and that's the important thing.

It really doen't matter what your opinion is of me, and I think you've made that opinion clear by your previous post.

Jim you seem to work yourself into a corner sometimes. Certainly your goal can't be to isolate your self from the rest of us, is it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:40:14 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: And another thing
Message:
The guitar sale loss was pretty bad, But nothing compared to what my corn position is doing...Now back to the futures, commodities, that is.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 13:53:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Sorry, Gerry, just kidding
Message:
I'll refrain from kidding further and confirm that of course, I want nothing of the kind.

You know...

But tell me, Gerry, haven't you once felt like calling some of these guys 'assholes'? Like when John H-S, posts that we're inconsequential dogs barking around the feet of the giant Maharaji, don't you feel like saying something like that? So I say it? Is it really that bad? Yeah, it's low rent.

I'll TRY to control myself. For you, Gerry, I'll do it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:09:07 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're forgiven, my son
Message:
Jim,

Too bad you're not Catholic. Too bad I'm not a priest.

But tell me, Gerry, haven't you once felt like calling some of these guys 'assholes'? Like when John H-S, posts that we're inconsequential dogs barking around the feet of the giant Maharaji, don't you feel like saying something like that? So I say it? Is it really that bad? Yeah, it's low rent.

I honestly don't any more. There was a time, pretty recently in fact, that I would have. But now it just seems hilarious, I get off on it, like I do on most of your humorous posts, even the ranorous ones.

I'll TRY to control myself. For you, Gerry, I'll do it.

Jim, you charmer, you (I almost said bullshitter, gasp)
Don't do it for me, do it for those poor, lost souls wondering aimlessly in the desert of illusion

Hey did I every tell you story of our parish priest and what he tried to do to my brother when we were kids...maybe later.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:13:39 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: One more thing
Message:
That's rancorous, not ranorous.
Could have changed it in the edit mode but you lose all the HTML and I didn't feel like retyping it.

Brian, could you fix that...?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:24:07 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Brian's fee schedule
Message:
Gerry,

Sorry you didn't know. Brian wasn't hired to fix typos. You any idea how much that would cost? The ex's don't have darsahn lines and darshan lines of selfless servants to do this kind of work, not like some people we know. Yes, Brian has his gopis, but what he does with them is his business.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:38:21 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Brian's fee schedule
Message:
NO, no, NO. Not the typos but the very essential inner most cosmic fact that if you change something in the edit mode, any HTML that the original post might have contained disappears.

While I'm at it, my experience has been if you forget to put your name in the 'FROM' box and post your sweated over and heart felt outpouring of true feelings, they too disappear and poof, all the love and brotherhood you were feeling suddenly turns into a deep, burning, impotent rage. Like, know what I mean?

Could this be fixed in the program? I prefer the warm and cuddlies and heck, durnit, gosh almight, they just don't come that often and then bam something hits you kinda like when one of Jim's postings when Jim gets on yer case.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:57:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: From...
Message:
Re forgetting to put your name in the FROM box (and I'm talking Netscape here), it LOOKS like everything disappears, but it actually does not. Just type your name in and submit it. Try it. It has something to do with not refreshing or reloading (you can ask Brian about that).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:04:55 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: From...
Message:
Thanks Katie, I'll try it. And Brian, I can live with the HTML thing esp if what Katie says works. And I appreciate all the hard work and time you put in this. It really is quite wonderful and selfless of you. Unlike some gurus I know...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:50:29 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Katie
Subject: Oh, I see what you mean
Message:
You're referring to when you have to go back to a page and the information seems to have disappeared. That's an error in the browser not re-drawing your screen correctly. I new Netscape did that, but didn't know IE did it too.

There should be something somewhere on your menu that refreshes your display. In Netscape it's Edit/Refresh. Not sure what it is no IE. Probably something similar.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:42:04 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Brian's fee schedule
Message:
Dear Gerry,
I rarely edit my posts, could you tell? But I often forget my name or email and then it tell me and I fix it and I've never lost a post. Sorry I don't have any suggestions on what is wrong but I don't think it is with the forum. Of course could be wrong.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:32:07 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Gerry
Subject: One more thing
Message:
I don't do spelling errors, just broken HTML since they have to be fixed for the archive anyway.

And what do you mean 'Could have changed it in the edit mode but you lose all the HTML'??
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:07:17 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: One more thing
Message:
Hi Brian,

I know you don't fix spelling errors, you be doing that all day...

Here's what I mean about the HTML:

OK, I'll put something into HTML code, say italics and it appears just fine in the 'Here's how your message will appear' box.

Say I see a typo and I correct it in the edit box below the 'Here's how your message will appear' box. When I hit the 'send message' box after correcting the typo, the HTML is no longer present in the next 'Here's how your message will appear' box.

So I then go in the edit box and put back all the code. No biggie, but I thought it might be fixable. Don't spend to much time on it though, I can live with it.

Here I will test it to make sure what I just said is correct.

Answer: I put the word 'correct' in italics and the code was gone after I made a correction to another part of the text, so yes it is doing what I explained above. Hope this clear.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:43:47 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Gerry
Subject: One more thing
Message:
You're using IE 3.02 and I'm wondering if anyone else using that is having this problem. People don't tell me these things, but sometime allude to them in posts.

Send me your email address and I'll see if I can fix this.
brian@ex-premie.org
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 18:18:43 (EST)
From: jw
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: One more thing
Message:
qqweewe
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 18:35:35 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: jw
Subject: One more thing
Message:
qqweewe?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 18:36:50 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: One more thing
Message:
Well, the same to you, Buddy!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 18:40:27 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: One more thing
Message:
I've never been so insulted in my life!

Looking for a partner to crash the Poobah bash in Seattle '98
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 23:46:53 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Seattle
Message:
I will go with you and my big boy Jeff, if he can get out of the forest (he's got a job mapping diseased trees)!
Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:53:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hoymail.com
To: Carol
Subject: Seattle
Message:
Dear Carol,
Is your son a forester, or a geographer? Are these maps, paper field maps and/or will the be made digital? I am a geographer and a mapp maker and just wondered.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 14:01:50 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Forester?
Message:
He is a student of Biology with interest in preserving the ecosystem. This is just a summer job related to his interests.
I once took a orienteering class with the Mazama climbing school.
Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 15:02:55 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Carol
Subject: Forester?
Message:
Dear Carol,
Forgot about Biology being in many of the same fields as geography. Thanks.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 07:18:44 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Gerry or anyone
Subject: HTML
Message:
Can anyone tell me how to put italics etc into my posts using HTML, or alternatively, where to find such info. I feel like I'm talking without inflection.

Richard
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:03:30 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: HTML
Message:
for italics use before the part and to go back to normal style. substitue b in that code for bold.
don't forget to close the style or your whole post will be in italics.
regards and good emphasizing!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:50:19 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: HTML
Message:
I'm sorry Jude but that stuff just went straight over my head. If possible can you give me a text example?

Thanx

Richard
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:56:06 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: HTML
Message:
Before the text you wish to italicisze insert this :
< i > the cat sat on the mat < / i > and after this. (but close up the spaces) ie : lesser than symbol,lower case i, greater than symbol. To close the italics the same but with a backslash before the i.

Subsitutie b for i for bold.

There are also instructions I think on the front page of the Forum section of this site.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:26:12 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: HTML
Message:
Dear Jude,

Thank you very much.

Richard
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:38:28 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Tell us a story, daddy Gerry!
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Tell the story, I love stories, telling them and hearing them.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:21:42 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Tell us a story, daddy Gerry!
Message:
Robyn,

I will be happy to tell this tale to all my children but I've got to go right now. Stay tuned.

Going for his first job since '84
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:31:58 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Tell us a story, daddy Gerry!
Message:
Dear Gerry,
GOOD LUCK!
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 23:36:17 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Loosers/losers
Message:
Loosers are people in the process of cutting loose the bonds and bindings!! I'm for creative spellers and 'accidental' meanings of misspellings! Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:59:35 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Carol
Subject: Loosers/losers
Message:
Dear Carol,
Thanks, as I mentioned I rarely check my posts, who has time for that! I am also a terrible speller. Jade is too and when she was a kid and I was helping her study spelling I just made the comment that she was a horrible speller and she got so upset she was sobbing, little sweetie.... Doesn't bother me and I like your statement about accidental meanings! Makes it all seem worthwhile! Ha!
Robyn
PS. was that darn Jim the man who can't remember to close a HTML tag who threw that stone!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 14:59:22 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Premie love
Message:
Once again, such love and compassion emanating from a premie. It's an inspiration, really. Why don't you take a hint from your guru and give us all your best elephant imitation, John. VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 08:24:34 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Premie love
Message:
A premie loves Maharaji. That's it. There's no need for anything else. Why waste time on deluded people. How's that for a good elephant impression?

Check your old email VP for further info.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:52:50 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Premie love
Message:
Huh? Check my old email? Am I missing something?
Confused, VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 09:57:28 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Premie love
Message:
Why are you here then, looking down at us from a great height?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:00:28 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Premie love
Message:
Jude, I may be wrong, but from that last message, I believe that someone is putting us on...reveal yourself, ex-premie!
VP
elephant with a pedigree
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:10:43 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Premie love
Message:
I don't get it either. Is he saying M won't waste time on ex-premies, yes I think that's it. I thought he was saying he wouldnt' waste his time, so I said why are you here then? eh? come on, admit it you can' stop reading this material! You will learn to write and think in longer sentences if you keep going, perhaps with a few commas and even the odd sigh or pause while you do some thinking...
oh well. I guess he knows his own mind.
Mangy dog.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:37:53 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Premie love
Message:
I read this forum to remind myself of what it must be like to be in the mind. It's something I've become unfamiliar with since becoming a student.

VP, don't you ever read your emails? Either that or one didn't get through.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 10:49:06 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Ex premie love
Message:
remind myself of what it must be like to be in the mind

Dear John,

What is in your mind? If you can somehow be in your mind... do you mean like a car being in gear?

doesnt M say the mind is necessary to perform the necessary functions in life?

do you think communication is necessary?

Your mind doesn't scare me one little bit. Why are you avoiding it?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 11:51:54 (EST)
From: Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jude
Subject: Ex premie love
Message:
How lofty and preposterous does this premie have to get before you'll see through him? He's following the party line to the ultimate conclusion. A good example of what we don't want to be. (Sorry I can't make any longer sentences at the moment).
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:07:16 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Cheddar
Subject: URL and chidren
Message:
Dear Ched,
I've been involved in other things lately as you well know and I've lost the URL you emailed me. Could you see your way to re-mailing it? I thought I'd saved the message but it was the other one unfortunatly! Also I would like to continue the discussion about child rearing, if you wouldn't mind, via email so as not to bother anyone who's had enough. I value your position and although I don't agree totally I do think I come down to hard and would like to investigate that more and will on my own and with others if you don't want to continue. Let me know.
Robyn
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 12:43:54 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: Whoever you are
Message:
To John Hammond-Smyth, whoever you are

Either you are a clever ex-premie pulling the wool over my eyes, and your emails aren't getting here,or you are a premie who thinks you know who I am, but doesn't! If the latter is true, someone is getting some really interesting emails-snicker. I have gotten no email and I just checked my address... I don't have an old address. All roads lead here:) VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 13:29:40 (EST)
From: John Hammond-Smyth
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Whoever you are
Message:
Check your email now.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 17:08:26 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: John Hammond-Smyth
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
Hey there's only one dog here! A rabid one at that. grrrrr.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 15:29:44 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
bftb,
If I were a perfect master, I couldn't turn a deaf ear, I just couldn't. If the things being said about my mission were untrue I would have to address my ex-followers in a loving way. I wouldn't use lawsuits, as some premies have threatened here. I would actually communicate. That is assuming that I was a perfect master. I would try to bring even one lost sheep back into the fold.

Now, just for fun, let's pretend that I am Maharaji. I would just consider myself better than others, as he always has. In that case, why is there any need to respond to insignificant 'dogs'? Why waste my time, when I could be out purchasing $5,000 suits?

Also, just look at Marolyn's letter. Why get into a place that is where you don't want to be? Why bring yourself down? Why deal with negative people?

I like the perfect master response better.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, May 21, 1998 at 00:02:26 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: What would Shri Hans Do?
Message:
Here's a quote from the Shri Hans book published in India by DLM in 1970:

As the number of followers were increasing by leaps and bounds a few selfish and cunning people also insinuated themseves into the mission. During this period,many jealous people and organizations filed false claims in order to defame the name of Shri Maharaj Ji, and to erode his rising popularity and prestige. These were the years of great strain and hectic activities for Maharaj Ji,when even some of his own devotees became ungrateful and betrayed him. He emerged spotless desite all these trials; in fact his lustre increased. He dealt with the culprits in a most masterly manner. Some, who repented sincerely after their misdeeds, were forgiven. He was extremely merciful to all and would not inflict pain on anyone. Shri Maharaj Ji used to say,'Who can be more merciful than a Guru? The Guru is the very ocean of mercy.'

Carol
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 16:17:34 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: What would you do?
Message:
Such a great topic. Nigel and JW - very, very funny!

I keep waiting to get struck from the horse I'm riding and hear the words: 'Why are you persecuting me?' Then, I'll change my name from Saul to Paul and go out and preach the gospel. Oops, wrong cult again.

Oh what to do? What to do?
It's hard to be the satguru.

If I were he, I'd cash it all in, divide it amongst all those I'd hoodwinked, and wander as a beggar for the rest of my days.
eb
Return to Index -:- Top of Index