Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 8

From: May 15, 1998

To: May 23, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Annie -:- sheesh -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 01:09:21 (EST)
__Jim -:- You're kidding, right? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 01:51:21 (EST)
____Annie -:- You're kidding, right? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 02:24:28 (EST)
____Annie -:- also, -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 03:57:24 (EST)
__Brian -:- You tell em, Annie -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:27:40 (EST)
____Annie -:- responding to your questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 10:20:37 (EST)
______Jude -:- responding to your questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 10:25:10 (EST)
________Joy -:- responding to your questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:11:23 (EST)
__________Annie -:- responding to your questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:32:53 (EST)
____________Joy -:- responding to your questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:41:58 (EST)
____________JW -:- responding to your questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:24:35 (EST)
____________Keith -:- Who is god? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:44:08 (EST)
______________JW -:- Who is god? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:51:43 (EST)
________________Keith -:- Who is god? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:55:29 (EST)
__________________Carol -:- Who is god? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 13:57:33 (EST)
__________________JW -:- Who is god? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:50:46 (EST)
__________________Joy -:- Who is god? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:14:58 (EST)
____________________Keith -:- Who is god? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:43:15 (EST)
______________________Keith -:- Who is god? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:48:18 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- Keith's current confusion -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:06:49 (EST)
________Annie -:- responding to your questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:01:19 (EST)
__________Joy -:- responding to your questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:33:25 (EST)
______Gerry -:- responding to your questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:01:02 (EST)
________Annie -:- responding to your questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:54:18 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Annie's reading comp -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:13:44 (EST)
__Selena -:- sheesh -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:16:18 (EST)
__Carol -:- sheesh -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:21:39 (EST)

Katie -:- What Might Have Been -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 00:36:41 (EST)
__Sir David -:- What Might Have Been -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 07:13:43 (EST)
____Hey Katie, David, Selena -:- You brought up my stuff! -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:02:07 (EST)
______Selena -:- You brought up my stuff! -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:12:31 (EST)
______Katie -:- eb, you are great! -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:16:07 (EST)
________eb -:- eb, you are great! -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:21:26 (EST)
__________Katie -:- eb, you are great! -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:07:46 (EST)
____________Katie -:- P.S. to eb -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 13:59:38 (EST)
__________Carol -:- To eb(Katie,Robyn,Selena) -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 02:54:07 (EST)
____________Brian -:- That does it! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:27:51 (EST)
______________Selena -:- That does it! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 13:30:53 (EST)
________________Katie -:- That does it! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 13:44:47 (EST)
__________________Selena -:- That does it! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:21:55 (EST)
____________________Katie -:- Women's issues -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:41:33 (EST)
______________________Selena -:- Women's issues -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:09:27 (EST)
________________________Katie -:- Women's issues -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:26:54 (EST)
__________________________Selena -:- Women's issues -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:29:06 (EST)
____________________________Katie -:- Planet issues -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:50:05 (EST)
______________________Brian -:- Double-Sheeesh! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:40:05 (EST)
________________________Selena -:- Double-Sheeesh! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:47:17 (EST)
________________________Katie -:- Triple-Sheeesh! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:55:48 (EST)
__________________________Selena -:- Triple-Sheeesh! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:36:19 (EST)
____________________________Katie -:- Triple-Sheeesh! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:46:49 (EST)
__________________________carol -:- East and west Indian trip! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:14:32 (EST)
________________________eb -:- Double-Sheeesh! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:40:46 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- Brian in the ladies room? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:09:51 (EST)
____________________________Selena -:- Brian in the ladies room? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:41:47 (EST)
______________________________Katie -:- Brian in the ladies room? -:- Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:45:18 (EST)
____________Katie -:- To eb(Katie,Robyn,Selena) -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 13:56:10 (EST)
______________Carol -:- To eb(Katie,Robyn,Selena) -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:10:08 (EST)
______Selena -:- You brought up my stuff! -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:35:22 (EST)
________eb -:- Off topic-Adolescence -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:32:28 (EST)
__________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Off topic-Adolescence -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 02:05:43 (EST)

Sir David -:- Coincidence & children -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:46:14 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Children & punishment -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:00:51 (EST)
____Robyn -:- Children & punishment -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:08:12 (EST)
______Katie -:- Children & punishment -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:20:02 (EST)
________Robyn -:- original post -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:17:17 (EST)
______Gerry -:- Children & punishment -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:52:17 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Children & punishment -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:31:19 (EST)
______Carol -:- Children & punishment -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:14:17 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Children & punishment -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:38:18 (EST)
______Sir David -:- Children & punishment -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 06:17:34 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Children & punishment -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:14:54 (EST)
______Katie -:- my 2 cents -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 11:47:38 (EST)
________Robyn -:- my 2 cents -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:23:38 (EST)
__________Katie -:- my 2 cents -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:48:06 (EST)
__________Carol -:- my 2 cents -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:51:31 (EST)

Jude -:- Angry -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 08:46:54 (EST)
__Brian -:- Angry -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:15:59 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Angry -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 12:38:52 (EST)
__Lg -:- Angry -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:29:24 (EST)
__Jean-Michel -:- Club of angry exes -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:46:25 (EST)
____Selena -:- Club of angry exes -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 19:07:03 (EST)
______VP -:- Club of angry exes -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:58:56 (EST)
________Katie -:- Powder blue Samsonite -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 23:13:34 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Powder blue Samsonite -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 11:52:22 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Powder blue off topic -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:04:46 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Powder blue off topic -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:11:46 (EST)
________________Selena -:- Powder blue off topic -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:13:04 (EST)
__________Carol -:- Mariachi Man -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:48:00 (EST)
______Sir David -:- But here's the sad part -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 00:13:34 (EST)
________Selena -:- But here's the sad part -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:34:37 (EST)
__Pajama Man -:- Art imitates life, Jude -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 23:46:50 (EST)
____Jude -:- Art imitates life, Jude -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 09:09:00 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Three continents -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:08:20 (EST)
______Katie -:- Three continents -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:15:43 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Three continents -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:27:30 (EST)
__________jim -:- Three continents -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:45:33 (EST)
____________VP -:- Three continents -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:59:34 (EST)
______________VP -:- Cliff notes on 3Cs -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:31:13 (EST)
________________VP -:- noun and verb agreement -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:33:27 (EST)
______VP -:- Three continents -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:23:10 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Angry -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:11:52 (EST)

Jude -:- Postal Address -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 04:54:15 (EST)

Jim -:- Jack kicked me out (to VP) -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 04:27:43 (EST)
__Jude -:- Jack kicked me out (to VP) -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 05:48:05 (EST)
____Jude -:- Part 2 of above post -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 05:49:36 (EST)
__Rick -:- Jack kicked me out (to VP) -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 12:32:39 (EST)
____Jim -:- We were going to -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:09:37 (EST)
______Rick -:- You putz -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 18:37:42 (EST)
________Selena -:- You putz -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 19:11:25 (EST)
__VP -:- Jim is a lawyer/criminal? -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 19:15:57 (EST)
____Katie -:- Jim, is this really true? -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 23:17:01 (EST)
______Carol -:- Average earnings -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:29:01 (EST)
________Katie -:- Ashram premie's earnings -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:26:46 (EST)
__VP -:- Jack kicked me out (to VP) -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 00:00:08 (EST)
____Jim -:- I'm so sorry (Part 3) -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 00:52:20 (EST)
______Jim -:- The real story, VP -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 01:13:40 (EST)
________VP -:- The real story, VP -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 07:57:37 (EST)
__*>*...b -:- Jack kicked me out (to VP) -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 22:53:34 (EST)
____CD -:- more stories -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:54:06 (EST)
______Jim -:- Is he an instructor now? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:40:52 (EST)
________Selena -:- Is he an instructor now? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:22:28 (EST)
______Jim -:- Police file - CD -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:31:24 (EST)
________CD -:- Police file - CD -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:33:40 (EST)
__________Jim -:- Police file - CD -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:20:09 (EST)
______*>*...b -:- more stories -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:18:42 (EST)
________CD -:- more stories -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:39:29 (EST)

Jude -:- Denial Virus -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:32:13 (EST)
__Katie -:- Denial Virus -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 03:27:08 (EST)
____Jude -:- Denial Virus -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 05:46:12 (EST)
______Selena -:- Denial Virus - a question -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 19:58:27 (EST)
__Brian -:- Denial Virus -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:38:10 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Denial Virus -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 13:25:07 (EST)

VP -:- Someone saved my life tonight -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:44:44 (EST)
__Selena -:- Someone saved my life tonight -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:58:51 (EST)
____VP -:- Someone saved my life tonight -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:09:31 (EST)
____Katie -:- Someone saved my life tonight -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:11:30 (EST)
______Selena -:- How many guitarists does it -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:16:30 (EST)
________Katie -:- Musicians off topic -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:24:41 (EST)
________eb -:- Loving Musicians -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:11:22 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Loving Musicians -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 18:56:23 (EST)
__________Carol -:- Loving Musicians -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:25:43 (EST)
______VP -:- don't let the title alarm you -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:25:03 (EST)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- lightbulbs -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:29:28 (EST)
__________VP -:- lightbulbs -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:33:28 (EST)
__________Carol -:- lightbulbs- fill in the blank -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:44:42 (EST)
________Katie off topic -:- don't let the title alarm you -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:32:17 (EST)
__Jude -:- Someone saved my life tonight -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 09:11:34 (EST)
__Carol -:- Someone saved my life tonight -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:37:36 (EST)

Bruce -:- Questions -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:40:05 (EST)
__Brian -:- Questions -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:17:04 (EST)
____Bruce -:- Questions -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:35:19 (EST)
______Brian -:- Questions -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 07:57:25 (EST)
________Jude -:- Inheritance -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:19:59 (EST)
__JW -:- Answerd Don't Make Sense -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 13:20:14 (EST)
____VP -:- Yeah, JW ,and furthermore... -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 13:53:12 (EST)
______JW -:- So Right, VP. -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:22:36 (EST)
________VP -:- M's Good Deeds??? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:48:21 (EST)
__________JW -:- M's Good Deeds??? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:35:13 (EST)
____________VP -:- M's Good Deeds??? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 21:15:06 (EST)
____________Mickey the Pharisee -:- M's Good Deeds??? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 02:31:43 (EST)
__________carol -:- M's Good Deeds??? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:57:32 (EST)


Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 01:09:21 (EST)
From: Annie
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: sheesh
Message:
So many assumptions, in response to my post, about *me* -- accusations and speculations: who I am, what I think, do, believe, etc. -- yet not one of you even knows me. I believe many of you misread my letter; try re-reading it, but without so many preconceived notions. It would take me too long togo over each of the points from my letter which was challenged or debated, but there were severalglaring misinterpretations in the respondents' posts. Look -- my experience is my own. Just that. It'sonly mine. You each have your own and I don't seeany reason to say you are wrong based purely on difference of experience. We're each cutting our own singular route through our ownpersonal jungles.Each of our lives is unique, our conclusionsare our own. I don't judge anybody, I don't think I have greater value than anyone else, I don't knowwhy people do what they do, and I have ceased tryingto figure out or change anyone else. I really don'tcare who leaves Maharaji and who stays with him.As far as I am aware, it's not relevant to my own life. I know I have written most of this before. Dear Jim, you knew me only for a brief time in Ottawa --& barely at that. I remember when we first met, inthat funny house which seemed like it was made ofcardboard, and I remember an afternoon together,you courted me on the bus ride, even held my hand;and how when I spoke about the commitment I felt toKnowledge, and living in the ashram, it seemed you reacted as if I had rejected you. How immediately you began to treat me verydifferently, seeking the tender places in my psycheand attacking me, personally attacking, illuminatingflaws in my personality, ridiculing me, finding chances to embarrass, wound, weaken me.I remember you well: many moments have remainedvivid. It took me a long time to conclude back then that -- in my opinion -- you were full of shit.[In response to your query: I have not had that impression about Bruce.]And almost everything I've read from you here leads me to the same opinion. Even so, if you care to know, I also loved you. There is something quite loveable and innocent about you, despite the qualities I perceiveas -- well -- loathsome, worthy of a vomitorium. Re: why I have written here -- there are, I think, a lot of reasons. One reason for such a post from me is that I like writing about myself. It is entertaining to me. I also like getting attention, and was quite prepared this time -- unlike a few months ago -- for the kind of reactions my post received. Another reason is that I like writing about Knowledge,it inspires me. Another reason is that I believe whensomeone does a web search for Maharaji, this isthe place that comes up. I think it's a good idea,and fair, for people who haven't personally knownMaharaji or received Knowledge to see there are different perceptions. This obviously helps peopleto think for themselves, or investigateand decide for themselves. I have actually encouraged some people to read the stuff onthis forum, because as long as we are afraid ofhearing/knowing/considering, we are not free --we are slaves of fear. If Knowledge is not authentic, if Maharaji is not a genuine master of his subject, I haveno interest in convincing anyone otherwise.I feel confidence that within me there is a flawless consciousness, and that it is morepowerful, ultimately, than anything. I think the same consciousness is in everyone, it's something I believe. And even though some of you are 'ex-premies' andI am not, I don't think we are very different.Despite the obvious, I mean. I do NOT know what Life's agenda, if there is one, might be -- for me or anyone else. I don't understand many things, I think there are mysteries, I have theories, I have intuitions,I like to explore. And I don't KNOW for sure that my perceptions are 'real' or my speculations necessarily valid. Who does? I LIKE this question: what do we really *know*? Really, i.e., unequivocally, absolutely.There are many things I am 'pretty sure' about,I would even say certain. Still, I keep learningand changing, and often irregardless of my own intent or firm beliefs. I am 'pretty sure' that I don't want to live out mylife as a quarry of fear.I think probably I haven't answered some challenges or questions which were addressed to me, but I amvery sleepy and this post is getting long. I do wishto acknowledge and say thank you for the thoughtfulness and impartiality of a few postsaddressed to me. Annie.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 01:51:21 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: You're kidding, right?
Message:
We're each cutting our own singular route through our ownpersonal jungles.Each of our lives is unique, our conclusionsare our own. I don't judge anybody, I don't think I have greater value than anyone else, I don't knowwhy people do what they do, and I have ceased tryingto figure out or change anyone else.

Annie,

I don't recall courting you, hitting on you or running around the ashram in a small towel. I don't recall you spurning my advances or feeling rejected afterwards. Are you sure you're not imagining this? Sorry, Annie, your fantasy, not mine. Anyway, think about this for a moment -- do you really need or want to discuss life, you, me, Maharaji and everything else here in that context? Yes, I cited my memory of you as being morose not as an ad hominem argument but as direct evidence against your claim that Maharaji's made you as happy as you say.

You've read this page for some time now, haven't you? Are you suggesting I'm treating you any differently than any other Maharaji apologist, whether I knew/know them or not? What, like Jack spurned my advances too?

Annie, here's the main thing I want to tell you: you shouldn't be so afraid to think, make judgments, use your mind. In reality, no one could function if we didn't do just that in all respects. The problem is that a theme sprouted in new-age circles, maybe directly as a result of certain transcendental mystical traditions, that we can and should avoid really thinking.

This is wrong. It's wrong biologically, it's wrong practically and it's wrong ethically.

Everyone has to make judgments constantly and if you say you don't, quite frankly, Annie, you're either fooling yourself or whomever you're talking with. It's not just impossible, it's completely undesirable to live otherwise.

Here's what happens, though. Obvioulsy what I'm saying is true. Really it goes without saying. So what does the new age impressario do, the author of the latest gobbledygook book, the latest so-called teacher? First, he write something extremely judgmental about being judgmental, then he fucks with the language -- in order to fuck with your thoughts -- about the entire process. Then he sells the book to some publisher who judges it worth printing for people who judge it worth buying and reading so taht they can, in turn, feel like they've got the inside goods on some truth. In essence, they end up judging everyone else as unenlightened. Why? Because, unlike them, they judge, everyone else is too judgmental.

Did I miss a few steps? Whatever. It IS pretty hilarious / pathetic, isn't it.

Look at yourself, for a moment. You criticize the people who responded to your post for not reading it carefully enough or having 'preconceived notions'. Judgmental? Sure looks like it. You complain about them judging you by your words, that they don't know you. Well this is communication, Annie, what were you expecting? God, you can be SO judgmental at times, can't you?
Look how you're judging ME here?

Hell, it goes on and on.

Another thing, you candidly admit that you like writing about yourself and welcome the attention. Fine, I think that's great. Honestly, I do. But what do you expect that attention to be if not judgmental? The only person I know who gets people to give him attention without judgment also ahs them line up to kiss his feet. Is that what you want, Annie, a darshan line?

Go ahead, look at Maharaji, look at the Maharaji lexiconb, if you will.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 02:24:28 (EST)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You're kidding, right?
Message:
Jim, you twist everything to your own purpose. And your memory has failed, dollink.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 03:57:24 (EST)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: also,
Message:
We are using the word 'judge' differently. I do not mean discriminate. I mean simply that I don't know, really, the whole of another person, and therefore my value assessments are made only in relation to how another person interacts with me or
directly impacts my life.

you wrote: 'Are you suggesting I'm treating you any differently than any other Maharaji apologist, whether I knew/know them or not?'

I am only illustrating that I knew you twenty-some years ago as a person who seemed to find pleasure in tearing down others. I am not the first to make such an observation. Have you given this any thought?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:27:40 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Annie
Subject: You tell em, Annie
Message:
I believe when someone does a web search for Maharaji, this is the place that comes up. I think it's a good idea, and fair, for people who haven't personally known Maharaji or received Knowledge to see there are different perceptions. This obviously helps people to think for themselves, or investigate and decide for themselves.

I'm glad to hear that.

I have actually encouraged some people to read the stuff on this forum, because as long as we are afraid of hearing/knowing/considering, we are not free -- we are slaves of fear.

Maharaji has actually discouraged people - not only from reading but from hosting sites like this on the Internet. So you are way ahead of him as far as wanting to prevent people from becoming slaves of fear. He is, after all, the sole reason why this site is the only place on the Internet where he is being discussed. He could probably sell a Rolls-Royce and finance a pro-Maharaji site if he were as open-minded as you are.

If Knowledge is not authentic, if Maharaji is not a genuine master of his subject, I have no interest in convincing anyone otherwise.

I perceive a problem with equating Maharaji and Knowledge. What you learn in your life - what you become aware of - is completely independent of whoever may aid in your having become aware of it. Yet you shrink from critical examination of Maharaji as a person - instead lapsing into humble vagueness about how you are a non-judgemental person.

How are you ever going to make a determination as to whether or not Maharaji is a fraud without exercising judgement? In the absence of that determination, do you contribute money to him anyway?

Your opinion of Jim is one that you claim is based on having had personal contact with him and making up your own mind that he enjoys making people feel bad about themselves. Let's say that's true. What insight do you have into the sort of person that Maharaji is? Have you ever noticed that he prefers to look down on people? He always speaks at programs and is never a participating part of the audience. Would you agree that he enjoys having people view him as divine and that he goes out of his way to encourage that viewpoint? Can you respond to these questions, or are you going to lapse into humble vageness again?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 10:20:37 (EST)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: responding to your questions
Message:
you wrote: 'How are you ever going to make a determination as to whether or not Maharaji is a fraud without exercising judgement?'

I have exercised judgement, and determined he is not a fraud. He has not deceived me, and he has continued to inspire me. I do not contribute money at this time; however I would like to, because it's an enterprise I believe in. I don't contribute anything, as far as I can tell.

you wrote: 'Have you ever noticed that he prefers to look down on people?' No. I have never seen him in this way. I have at times seen myself this way, and that such an attitude is absurd, for I myself possess most of the flaws I would look down upon in others.

you wrote: 'Would you agree that he enjoys having people view him as divine' No, I strongly disagree.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 10:25:10 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: responding to your questions
Message:
you wrote: 'Would you agree that he enjoys having people view him as divine' No, I strongly disagree.

Annie, could I ask you, how do you think Maharaji wants people to view him?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:11:23 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Annie
Subject: responding to your questions
Message:
Annie, if you strongly disagree that he wants people to view him as divine, what are darshan lines all about? And they're not just a thing of the past, either, they have happened recently. Can you please explain this?

JW's post (Answerd[sic] Don't Make Sense) from the thread by Bruce entitled Questions down below here states some very appropriate questions for this topic. I will quote a couple of paragraphs here, then would like to know your views on this, please.

So, which is it? You see, back when I was a premie, BM was going around saying he was the same thing as JC, and also allowed himself to be referred to as the Lord of the Universe, and the Superior Power in Person, and other such names, that would lead anyone who tended to believe him, that he WAS god in human form. Moreover, actions speak even louder than these words, and his encouraging us to worship him, wearing crowns, having us kiss his feet, etc., also showed that he really did believe he was divine and advertised himself as such.

So, did he used to be god, but isn't anymore? Was he never god and just lied about it? If he's just a 'special' man, how can you equate him with JC? It just seems that BM and the premies want to leave it all vague enough so that people can still believe he IS god, but he doesn't have to say it anymore because he would be laughed out of town, and the premies can say he isn't god, but leave it all so contradictory that they can, at the same time, still believe he is.


Well, premies?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:32:53 (EST)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: responding to your questions
Message:
To me, the benefit of paradox and contradictions anywhere is that I am required to think for myself and come to my own conclusions. What is God? Can anyone on this forum give an absolute answer to that question?

I think it's important for each of us to question and be aware of what we *know* from our own first-hand experience. Everything else is suspect, speculation, rumor, subject to interpretation.

I also think a more useful question than 'is Maharaji God?' is 'who is Maharaji to ME?'

I have not been in a darshan line for many years. You ask what that's about, and again I can only speculate, say what I *think* which is that it is a response to a wish from premies. There are probably alot of different reasons why people want that kind of contact with Maharaji, and I'm not going to speak for them, only for myself. I think it is a wish to know him, to connect with him physically, visually.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:41:58 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Annie
Subject: responding to your questions
Message:
I appreciate your response, but still don't feel that darshan lines being a 'response to a wish from premies' is a realistic answer. Did the premies come up with this idea in the first place? I doubt it. If people want more personal contact with him, he can stop barricading himself into his mansions with security and walk around at programs, shake hands and talk to his 'students' as other spiritual teachers do. For him to sit up on a throne in a special, darkened tunnel with love songs playing softly in the background and his feet on a velvet cushion while people file by and kiss them seems a bit of an over-the-top way of having physical contact with people, don't you think? This is not a normal way to behave! It implies a divinity and state of realization over and above everyone else's. To me, one of the first and foremost attributes of a genuine spiritual teacher is humility, and this behavior does not express humility, but the exact opposite of it. It's just one small example, I could give many, of the ways in which Maharaji separates himself from humanity and pretends, in an utterly arrogant and obnoxious fashion, to be better than, more realized than, or more one with God than everyone else.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:24:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: responding to your questions
Message:
To me, the benefit of paradox and contradictions anywhere is that I am required to think for myself and come to my own conclusions. What is God? Can anyone on this forum give an absolute answer to that question?

Sometimes contradictions are just that. They show that what you think is just plain wrong, nbt supported by extrinsic evidence and therefore subject to severe questioning. To retreat into the world of 'I don't know anything but what I experience' is so subjective, that you can't really see the contradictions, because you don't allow them to enter. You are entitled to believe whatever you want to, but I've got to say the way you explain it really gives me the creeps.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:44:08 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Who is god?
Message:
Annie said,
'What is God? Can anyone on this forum give an absolute answer to that question?'

This is very important.
So many ex's who post here express as if they know what or who god is (or isn't).
The word 'god' is used frequently .
I for one (and most premies in my experience) have not an 'absolute answer' to the question 'what is God?
The word divine and the word god are not synonomous.
Divine relates to a quality, whilst god relates to an entity.
Is this not so?
I do have my own thoughts about god but they are just that .......my thoughts.
Keith
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:51:43 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Who is god?
Message:
So many ex's who post here express as if they know what or who god is (or isn't).

I think this simply isn't true. Except perhaps for Gumby, who is a Christian, I haven't heard any exes pontificate on who god is. Rather we portrayed that BM used to explicitly represent himself as 'god,' and that we believe many premies from those days at least, still believe it.

I for one (and most premies in my experience) have not an 'absolute answer' to the question 'what is God?

Yes, I have noticed this, Annie is the most extreme example so far, however. She, like many other premies in my opinion, keep the whole idea of 'god' so vague and unknowable that they do not have to deal with the fact that BM has represented himself that way. It's more like a defense mechanism. Somthing like: 'maybe BM did call himself the superior power in person, and the lord of the universe, but, what is 'god' anyway? I mean, what does that MEAN?' 'Does it mean anything, and I don't know what god is'..blahblah, blahblah.' Keith, I think that's why you hear premies say that.

Note that premies really don't respond otherwise when exes keep pointing out how BM represented himself that way, and never explained why he doesn't anymore. The only way to deal with the contradiction is to just throw up your hands and say the whole thing is unknowable, except for the 'energy inside.' But really, it's just evasive rationalization, common in cults. I know, I used to do the same thing.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:55:29 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Who is god?
Message:
JW,
My own perception of god was such that whatever M said would not have been interpreted by me as M saying He was God.
The problem is I don't know what M intended to suggest back in the 70's.
My very first post on the forum was about how I perceive a difficulty arising from a western as against an eastern conditioning.
I suspect that M was really naive back in the 70's.
He didn't realize the fundamental differences between eastern and western interpretations.
We in the west don't really have a general equivalent to what in the east is called the sat-guru.....or even a guru....do we?
The closest perhaps is how christians have deified Jesus.
I am yet to be convinced that M has known all that he's doing and has consciously manipulated people.
Well, on the other hand I have many queries here that I am pursuing.... I said I am not convinced.....not that I am convinced the other way either.
JW,let me tell you a little story....this happened to me around 1977/8.
I visited a Tibetan mountain refuge and it so happened that a fomous Lama was there at that time. (lama yeshe).
He was giving discourses to a number of people and I asked a monk if I could sit in .
I was allowed. I had just finished reading a book by Chogyam Trungpa called .
'cutting through spititual materiliasm', which was about how the mind tricks us easily when it comes to spiritual matters.
I asked Lama Yeshe a question (actually to his intepreter)....
' lama Yeshe, how am I who is ignorant to know whether you are trustworthy? Afterall, you are the wise one , not me.'
The Lama's response was, 'drink plenty tea with master.'
Later that day, without understanding the Lama's response and having been told that his afternoon discourse had been cancelled,
I left.
Some years later I ran into the Lama's interpreter and he informed me that the Lama had cancelled his discourse so that 'I could drink plenty tea with him'(get to know him).
A good lesson perhaps!
Well I have not drank plenty tea with Maharaji, and I am audacious enough to think that he might invite me for a cuppa.
Until then I reserve any final judgement.
It's a curly one this.....so if you have gone one step further than me in working this out ....good on you.
But I must discover things on my own and in my own sweet time!
Your 'humble' fellow forum person, Keith.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 13:57:33 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Who is god?
Message:
Unfortunately, there were many Mahatmas and devotees willing to bridge the gap between east and west by telling us M was like Jesus and using many biblical references modeled after what Shri Hans also told people. He was also compared to 'all the other PPMs' like Krishna and Budha and others.
Carol
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:50:46 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Who is god?
Message:
Keith, I have a couple of comments on what you said.

My own perception of god was such that whatever M said would not have been interpreted by me as M saying He was God.

Well, you must be kind of an unusual person. I think most people, when told 'guru is greater than god' and 'the superior power in person' and the same thing as Jesus, would get the drift that the guy is god or close to it. The premies I knew thought he was incarnate without question and I don't think we were unusual in that regard.

The problem is I don't know what M intended to suggest back in the 70's. My very first post on the forum was about how I perceive a difficulty arising from a western as against an eastern conditioning. I suspect that M was really naive back in the 70's. He didn't realize the fundamental differences between eastern and western interpretations.

I don't think you can chalk it up to some kind of cultural misunderstanding. Maybe BM was 'naive' in the 70s, (and this extended into the 80s, at least until 1983) but he did grow up and, as you know, he has never acknowledged he WAS naive, instead implying all was perfect, let alone take any responsiblity for how he was portrayed and the effect that had on his devotees.

I am yet to be convinced that M has known all that he's doing and has consciously manipulated people.

If BM doesn't know BY NOW what he was doing, and how that manipulated people to do some pretty destructive things, he is dumb as a post (or as a friend of mine from Texas says: 'dumb as a box of rocks.') Whether it was 'conscious' or not, I can't say, but don't you think he has a responsiblity to explain that?

When did you drink tea the Maharaji?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:14:58 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Who is god?
Message:
Keith, this is the kind of thing I was referring to above. Genuine spiritual teachers are willing to spend time with you and help you work through your doubts to decide if you want them for a teacher or not. They do not exist on a pedestal. Can you actually imagine BM inviting you over for tea to discuss things? I think hell would freeze over first. BM removes himself from all but a select few devotees, then controls rigidly the access the vast majority of devotees have to him, so he can control his image and have more power. This is in line with what is described in The Guru Papers as an authoritarian cult. Have you gotten that book yet?

While the knowledge may be a genuine spiritual experience, the manner in which BM behaves and capitalizes on it and takes advantage of people's innocence and spiritual aspirations, is what is so offensive to me. Those Tibetan lamas are a breath of fresh air, with their absolutely down-home, aw-shucks manner of behavior, yet most of them radiate a light and clarity and razor-sharp focus borne out of many years' meditation and serious practice that BM could never hope to even aspire to, much less be a vessel for himself. Just my opinions, hope they're not too offensive to a current premie. Are you the person who used to post as Vacol? If so, you sound quite different now, like maybe you have been thinking about all this in a serious way.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:43:15 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Joy, JW and Carol
Subject: Who is god?
Message:
Thank thee three for your posts,
Joy,
Good point you make.
I partly agree.....in that it seems or can seem that Maharaji keeps aloof......but I simply do not know see the big picture.
There is no 'standard' that is universal .....that we can apply to outward behavior....only 'clues' and/or possibilities.
Maybe's!!! Maybe M's apparent aloofness is the outward sign of too much pride or the sign of wanting to be an Olympian God-figure at the head of an autocratic empire.
Maybe!! Or maybe not!!
Maharaji , it could also be argued, is focused only on spreading knowledge and leaves all the other 'stuff' to us to work out.
Maybe!! Or maybe not!!
And this brings me to a point where it seems JW may have misunderstood my last post in this thread.
I didn't say I've drank tea with Maharaji.....only that I want M to invite me to drink tea with him......so that I can get to know him in a way that is not possible from a distance.
Yes, and this throws up a problem.
Wouldn't everyone who knows of Maharaji like to drink tea with him...(or almost everyone)...and really how is that possible?
Well, if I were in that situation I think I would like to drink tea with those who were really serious....serious about living , learning, exchanging.....and certainly not only with those who agree with everything I say.
So, again I can say, I HAVE NOT THE MEANS AS YET TO JUDGE Maharaji.

Yes, I am Vacol. And I have been doing some serious thinking as is my usual inclination.
I think I have settled more comfortably now into this forum enviroment.
As Vacol I was experimenting more than now with methods of communication in a strange new land.
One last point here.....I really do not see my purpose of participating in this forum to be about defending Maharaji, Knowledge or premies.
For me it is a forum where I feel I can really share my heart and mind.... my feelings and thoughts....and to find a place(and a space) where I can feel quite comfortable to do so (despite all the opposition that I evoke) is quite rare and highly valued by me.
Regards to you all,
Keith
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:48:18 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Who is god?
Message:
Joy,
Sorry I forgot ....No I haven't read the Guru Papers yet.
My local library are trying to obtain a copy for me from another library.
Keith.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:06:49 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Keith's current confusion
Message:
Hey, I just realized we're not getting paid for this. Oh well.

Watching the clock, let me say:

Keith, you're fundamentally confused. You say:

I HAVE NOT THE MEANS AS YET TO JUDGE Maharaji.

and you base this on the fact that you can't say with absolute certainty that Maharaji isn't Zorro. Why, you sound like an O.J. juror (the criminal trial).

Keith, neither the world nor the mind works like that. We judge based on probablities and don't wait for certainties. Yes, it's possible that Margie is 'is focused only on spreading knowledge and leaves all the other 'stuff' to us to work out.'

But what are the chances, Keith?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:01:19 (EST)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: responding to your questions
Message:
I can only speculate, whatever that's worth, as I don't know how Maharaji wants people to view him. I think he wants people to view him accurately. In my experience there has been more emphasis placed, by Maharaji, on how we view ourselves, our lives, the offerings of life, than on how we view him.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:33:25 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Annie
Subject: responding to your questions
Message:
That's a pretty evasive answer, Annie. First you say you strongly disagree that M. wants people to view him as God, and now you say he wants people to view him accurately. What exactly does 'accurately' mean? When he's presenting himself in Krishna crown and mala costume, and dancing to 'Lord of the Universe' or sitting up on his chair in a darshan tent, does this constitute an accurate presentation of who he thinks he is and how he wants to be perceived? In my opinion and experience, humble and genuine spiritual teachers do not behave in this manner. I think a lot of the views expressed on this site constitute an 'accurate' representation of people's experiences and perceptions of Maharaji.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:01:02 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: responding to your questions
Message:
Annie,

Did you read the Guru Papers?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:54:18 (EST)
From: Annie
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: responding to your questions
Message:
yes.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:13:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Annie's reading comp
Message:
Annie,

I'm sure your reading comp's just fine. So, tell me, besides the obvious point, that the Guru Papers is 'one man (actually a man and a woman's) opinion', what did you think about it? Forget about Maharaji for a moment, you've been around, you're familiar with other guru's or 'spiritual teachers'. Do you think the book is right about anything? If so what?

For example -- I'm still trying to get a premie to answer this -- do you agree with the authors' argument that authority figures who either punish or refuse to deal with people who won't obey them without question are 'authoritarian'? Hmm?

Also, you responded to some of Brian's post but ignored what I think is the most interesting part: do you admit that you disagree with Maharaji about this page? He's clearly asked people to not discuss him on the net yet you've already explained why you think that poeple should read this page? Do you think Maharaji's simply wrong about this?

Finally, you say that you support 'discrimination' as opposed to 'judgment'? Personally, I can't see how one can exist without the other? Would you care to elaborate?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:16:18 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: sheesh
Message:
I do wishto acknowledge and say thank you for the
thoughtfulness and impartiality of a few postsaddressed to me. Annie.


============================end quote=================
and, I'll bet they were the ones who defended you or agreed with you or called us mean. - just a guess, could be wrong.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:21:39 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com
To: Annie
Subject: sheesh
Message:
Annie,
I appreciated both of your posts. I share most of your declared beliefs in this one to do with ourselves (I don't know Jim except for his posts). I wonder if you'd tell me how you view Maharaji, or is that an area about which you are unsure?

I welcome mail from premies and ex's at my e-mail site if you don't want to be public. I don't see this whole thing as just right/wrong or black/white except in one area: do you believe he is God or greater than God or greater than other people who also have God in them? And also wouldn't it be a positive move if he would address the issues of his history and the DLM/DUO history?
Carol
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 00:36:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Everyone
Subject: What Might Have Been
Message:
I was inspired to write this post by David's 'But here's the sad part' below, so in a way, it's an answer to that post. I was sad all day today, almost crying. I tried to figure out why and I realized I was sad about Sam, my premie friend and lover who committed suicide in 1994. I wrote about Sam below, and I'll repeat it here. At the time he committed suicide, I had a dream about him where he was completely happy and fulfilled (something that I wouldn't have been able to imagine, I don't think). The dream was so intense that it woke me up. I believed at that time that he had really found something to make him happy, and to help him overcome all the childhood conditioning and guilt that he'd grown up with, and that had only been emphasized by his involvement with Maharaji. Instead, I found out he had killed himself (and incidentally I found the forum and decided to start participating in it.)

I do believe that Sam is OK now, but I still think it's really sad that these wonderful people come into the world as children and are mistreated and abused (sometimes with all good intentions, sometimes not) and warped so much that they cannot be happy. Sam had knowledge, lived in the ashram, probably was a devoted ashram premie, and he still was miserable because of things that happened to him as a child.

I had the same kind of experience when my dad died. He was in a coma for several weeks before his death (he died at age 58), so I visited him in the hospital several times. My sister and I were returning from one visit and drove across the Potomac River. I looked out over the river and had a momentary vision of my father in a single scull, sculling away from us and waving goodbye. In my vision, he was about 25 years old and he was happy. This may not seem so weird, but my father was NEVER happy the whole time I was growing up. He had the kind of childhood that I don't even like to think about. I don't think I could have imagined him being happy if I wanted to. I believe that I really saw the person he might have been, if he hadn't been warped and abused and so forth. This makes me sad, too.

I almost cried many times today thinking about the people that we all might have been, if things in the world hadn't been the way they are. At one time I thought Maharaji was the answer, but I know he isn't anymore. He's just another example of what might have been - to me, anyway. I don't have any answers - I just wanted to express what I was feeling to you all.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 07:13:43 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Katie
Subject: What Might Have Been
Message:
Good that you could express that and I feel it's important to be able to express sadness and not to feel inhibitted about it. I want to read the 'real' posts because they often strike a chord with me.

But we're not finished yet! The game's far from over and I believe if we do what we can and just hang in there, then there's a lot of my dream that could possibly come true. My five year old daughter amazes me. She keeps telling me that we are in God's stomach and that everything is God. I never told her this. If I can, I'll make sure she doesn't have to suffer the same pitfalls as I did.

You're right about it being sad how all these beautiful people are born and yet they get abused, one way or another. I don't know why it has to be that way. But I believe (and don't tell Jim this) that when this story is over for us down here, then we'll all be renued in some other place and can know each other again there. My sister who died last year, spoke to her husband through a medium and told him that each night when he's asleep she carresses his face, just how she used to when she was alive. She also told him not to drive so fast and to carry on playing the classical music in his car when he drives. Now nobody knew about that, save my brother in law and my sister (his wife). The medium couldn't have known.

I have on video a film of me which I taped off a TV program about the children's home I used to be in the fifties. I'm only about eighteen months old but it's definitely me because I reckognised the sun bleached streaky blonde hair I used to have as a child. (It's dark now). I look at the video and can't hardly believe just what that little child had in front of him. My life. But I know that deep inside, I'm still that beautiful child and I owe it to him to do the best I can, for him. This would be true for anyone.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:02:07 (EST)
From: Hey Katie, David, Selena
Email: None
To: Forum Buddies
Subject: You brought up my stuff!
Message:
To begin with, I've tried 3 times to quit taking meds because my new age hooey hooey friends tell me that I'm masking my feelings by taking anti-depressants and ativan. One of those 3 times I landed in a hospital and now I can't own a gun. As if...

I used to believe that if I didn't have to work, I could go on a fast, do some colonics, go cold turkey on the meds, do yoga every morning and meditate lots, work in a garden out in the middle of montana or somewhere away away. But my current husband likes the city and I'd never leave my kids (even though the 14-year old gothic malcontent drives me to panic twice daily). (That plan is a 'geographic' in AA terms).

And Katie, darned if my dad wasn't the most miserable person I'd ever met--so very depressed my heart ached for him. Feels okay to me now; sort of peaceful. He's been dead since '92, but sometimes I'd swear I feel his presence.

My fundamental dilemma is: I want to be able to believe in something! I feel so separate from anything like a god. I teased Annie, but I wish I could fool myself into believing in margie or jesus or myself for that matter. Not that I'm an atheist; I just don't know what to believe.

Maybe it's just PMS, but I feel awfully sad about all this. Fortunately, SSRIs have a way of making neural connections misfire just right, and pretty soon I won't remember how sad I am right now.
eb
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:12:31 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Hey Katie, David, Selena
Subject: You brought up my stuff!
Message:
Hi
I am not a doctor but I was quite the prescription druggie, (and others too)
Please don't just take my word for it. Check this out for yourself but I am fairly sure
that it's the tranquilizers, the diazepam pills like ativan, librium, valium halcyon, xanax, that are the hard ones to kick physically. The anti-depressants like the serotonin re-uptake things may produce uncomfortable systems when you stop, and serious to mild psychology withdrawals, but they don't usually send a person into psychosis, seizures, and to the nearest ER. But I would double check that if I were you.
So, watch the ativan.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:16:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: eb
Subject: eb, you are great!
Message:
Hi eb - I don't have any answers, cause I've got a lot of the same problems, but I want to tell you that I loved your post. It was sad and funny at the same time - you have a great sense of humor.

Sometimes I think that people like us (and our dads, and your son, and so on) were born without an extra layer of psychic skin that other people seem to have. Thus the need for the medication (and other things). I get reallly mad when people are against psychiatric drugs per se - it might be easy if you are living in a totally supportive environment where you never have to go out of the house and everything is all taken care of for you, but most of us have to live in the real world and deal with real problems.

Maharaji and his meditation weren't the answer for me - in fact, the continual guilt trip just made things much worse for me. I too want to believe in something, and I believe that there IS something to believe in - I just don't know what it is, and I haven't experienced it.

Thanks eb,
Katie
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:21:26 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: eb, you are great!
Message:
Thanks Katie. You're great too. Sometimes I wonder whether my humor comes across (for instance, I think the gun thing is pretty damn funny). So thanks for the feedback. And I agree with you on the skin problem. Been this way all my life. Laugh and cry at the same time usually.
Love,
eb
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:07:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: eb, you are great!
Message:
Hi eb,
I thought the gun thing was very funny too (I can just SEE you at the pistol range!).

Unfortunately I come from a family where not being able to own a gun would have been a BIG problem for some of the members (still would be, actually). We had to worry about things like my dad's security clearance and so forth. Of course, this is before all the presidents' wives and kids were alcoholics, did drugs, took antidepressants and went into herapy. Things are a little more open now, thank to them and others.

Oh yeah, your humor does come across. It's very wry (as JW said) and very funny.
Love,
Katie
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 13:59:38 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: P.S. to eb
Message:
There's a line in a Shawn Colvin song that I keep thinking of:

'If you line up all the girls who died in vain,
You could walk on their heads to hell and back again.
But I've got the Big Book, and anti-depressants...'

(from Object of My Affection.)
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 02:54:07 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: To eb(Katie,Robyn,Selena)
Message:
Hi eb and other women,
Maybe all the women on the forum will have their moon cycle together. A women friend with 3 daughters said that they all have their cycles at the same time. Maybe pheromones effect hormones. It probably won't work over the net unless somehow by power of suggestion, but who knows! I mentioned earlier that I take anti-depressants,too. They haven't been as effective lately, or maybe it's all the emotional stuff that I'm dealing with (or PMS). I've been sad, too.
From all the studies I've done since finding out my son had neurological disorders, I also discovered that many other disorders may also be determined by our DNA. The disorders include: Autism,Tourettes, OCD, depression, manic depression (bi-polar disorder), conduct disorder, the tendencies toward alcohol and drug addiction, eating disorders, and enueresis.
There is a huge and lengthy human genome project going on to try to map all the genes. Brain research is also being done by numerous different groups like those studyig addiction, the aging mind, Tourettes and so on. We can be hopeful that many people today can be helped by drugs that balance brain chemicals that were not available 20 years ago, and there are new ones always coming out as more is understood. I hope you have good medical advice. You don't need to share whether or not you use medicine with others who are biased.
As for something to believe in, how about love? For special people, for nature, beauty, animals, for yourself! When my intent is to be loving, I experience the good feelings as well. When I have been with dying people in hospice, I decided that my number one objective would be to provide love and comfort to my patients and their caregivers. It has been a wonderful experience. ( I have a new patient this week!)
I send loving thoughts your way and to all who are reading this. Carol
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:27:51 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Carol
Subject: That does it!
Message:
I'm putting a Moon Lodge Forum online pronto!
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 13:30:53 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: That does it!
Message:
I don't know Brian, you might be the only guy and I am not sure
that men can participate in wiccan ceremonies anyway.
ahh, but maybe I don't understand what a moon lodge is?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 13:44:47 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: That does it!
Message:
He's being sexist and obnoxious, Selena (but I still love him). A moon lodge is where women go when they have their menstrual periods. I guess Brian figures if we all get synchronized he won't want us on this forum.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:21:55 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: That does it!
Message:
well, he may have a point. I feel embarrassed by my post now. I thought it was a lodge for casting spells.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:41:33 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Selena
Subject: Women's issues
Message:
Honestly, Selena, I don't think he has a point, and that kind of discrimination bugs me (even jokingly). I just get angry when people make generalizations about women that are based on women's hormonal cycles. I got really angry at Jim one day when he asked me if I was upset because I 'had a headache', which I took to mean that he was jokingly asking me if I had my menstrual period. Should I have asked Jim if he's so pissed off all the time because he's going through male menopause? (If Brian and Jim didn't intend to imply those things, I am sorry. I am sensitive about these issues).

I have real problems with people who say 'men are like X, and women are like Y' because I always identified much more with my father when I was a child. I don't fit some of the molds, and I don't like people trying to put me in them. I have had big problems trusting and being friends with other women because I was abused by my mother as a child. That is one of the reasons that this forum has been so good for me - I've been able to meet and talk to women in a non-threatening environment.

Anyway, end of rant!
Katie
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:09:27 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Women's issues
Message:
gee Katie, is it the moon thing that's got you this way?
I am asking for it, I know.
You know Katie, I am sometimes able to relate to men BETTER than other women, so I don't like the generalities either. I understand what you mean about the pms jokes, etc. it kind of belittles whatever emotions or problems you are having by them saying, oh must be that time, etc. I do understand, but I didn't get that from what Brian posted, he didn't mean to be mean, I don't think. but I am a groupie (or gopi?) so I may not be objective. and, I am being honest here, I am often very moody and emotional at 'that' time.
Also, yes, some of these guy probably are experiencing some kind of chemical imbalance, that's why they are so creative. One big happy dysfunctional family.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:26:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Women's issues
Message:
Selena - I am not sure that's what Brian meant either, and as I said, I apologize if he did not mean that. (I guess we will find exactly what he meant if he ever comes back on the forum!)

I just get mad when men imply that if I am moody, emotional or angry, I must be having my menstrual period. They tend to be wrong approximately 85% of the time, so I don't think there is much of a correlation. I understand that there is a correlation for some women, but I still don't think it's right to discount someone's real feelings because of that.

Take care,
Katie

P.S. Rick says that 'take care' is not as infuriating as 'planet'. I hope that's correct, cause I use it a lot. If it really bothers anyone, let me know.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:29:06 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Women's issues
Message:
Planet?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:50:05 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Planet issues
Message:
Rick can't stand the word 'planet' (when used instead of 'world', I think.)- it rubs him the wrong way. I asked him once about 'take care' and he said he could deal with it.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:40:05 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Katie
Subject: Double-Sheeesh!
Message:
Hey, I didn't bring the subject up!!

The reference to a Moon Lodge is one I first heard here on the forum and was posted by one of the women. I enjoy teasing you all, but have never accused anyone here of moodiness due to chemical whatevers. I'm squirming just DENYING it!

This is a public forum, ya know. If you post stuff about your 'moon cycles', some of us (I'm not saying who for fear of accusations of gender bias) have to either pretend we don't see the entire thread or (like me) walk stupidly into it by making what was intended to be a humorous remark.

I enjoy that there are a lot of women posting here now. I'm not always happy to be dragged along into the ladies room though. Don't mind me... I'll confine myself to quietly reading the graffiti...
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:47:17 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Double-Sheeesh!
Message:
well, I'm innocent here. I just wanted to talk about drugs after all. And wicca. And now that you brought it up, bathroom graffitti.
I may have some lipstick tapes that would go well in that ladies room Katie says the ones I sent didn't have any on them, so I may still need a courier. Since you've your being dragged in anyway, what do you say?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:55:48 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Triple-Sheeesh!
Message:
Brian - fair is fair. I guess it's because I have been on here for a long time, but sometimes I feel like I'm being dragged into the men's room (like when all the guys start talking about how gorgeous Durga Ji was, or how they used to have sex with all the ashram sisters, or how sexy some housemother that they knew, or whatever). Anyway, if you were just making a joke, that's good.

By the way, wish you didn't have to squirm about it. It's a fact of life, and not something that is just spoken about in the ladies room.

Your humble assistant,
Katie
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:36:19 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Triple-Sheeesh!
Message:
Hi Katie
I don't know if you read my last mail but I thought of the name of that movie, it's 'The People vs. Larry Flint' - I thought Courteney did a great job.

umm, hope you are OK about this thread.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:46:49 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Triple-Sheeesh!
Message:
Yeah, I am OK (I hope Brian is too!). I didn't see that movie but would like to. It never even got into the theaters here, which is typical.

BTW, I saw that Versace ad - it was in the New Yorker. She looks really good (I hid it from my husband!)
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:14:32 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: East and west Indian trip!
Message:
I just want to add that when I went to see M in India the women were coached about the taboos, including: Cover your body at all times from neck to feet (even when bathing only with women, very difficult in western clothing!), leave no sign whatsoever of your menses where a man might see it accidentally.

Then in the West at Sundance ceremony. No women on their moon allowed to enter sweat any of the ceremonies, and must go straight to the moon lodge area or leave the camp. Their 'energy' at that time of month was considered to be counter or opposite to the energy of the men and could even be dangerous to the dancers!

On another subject, during the four days of the dance, no one in any of the camp was to spill water on the ground, like to wash hair or anything, in honor of the people who danced who had to go without water. They sometimes got a little during sweat lodges interspersed with the rounds of dance. I had some trouble with these ideas, but cooperated out of respect.

Sorry I mentioned being emotional in relation to my cycle. It is certainly nothing to generalize about from person to person, as it is not even the same for me from month to month. And I also hate it if someone assumes that, when I am emotional.
Carol
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:40:46 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Double-Sheeesh!
Message:
Hi Brian,
I knew what you were talking about and I thought it so funny I laughed out loud.
eb
The Moon Child
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:09:51 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Brian
Subject: Brian in the ladies room?
Message:
Hi Brian - eb is right, what you said was funny, and I believe now that you didn't mean to imply anything more. I am sorry that I over-reacted to your joke, and I apologize for saying that you were obnoxious and sexist. (I don't promise to quit talking about this stuff though...)

Your rebellious assistant,
Katie
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:41:47 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Brian in the ladies room?
Message:
Good for you Katie. I didn't want to get into it, but I did think he was very expressive and funny.
thanks for being you, rant and all. In fact, I was relieved to see the rant. I knew you had it in you girl!!
Thanks to Carol and eb and Robyn too. Hope I'm not forgetting anyone. All of you mean more to me than I ever imagined when I
started posting here.
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Date: Wed, May 20, 1998 at 00:45:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Brian in the ladies room?
Message:
Thanks to you too, Selena, for being here.

And re Brian, you gotta love a guy who says 'pronto'...among other things.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 13:56:10 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: To eb(Katie,Robyn,Selena)
Message:
Hi Carol, and thanks for your message. You wrote about still being sad even with anti-depressants. In my experience, depression kept me from feeling grief or sadness or happiness or anger or any of those emotions. I just felt despairing and hopeless all the time. Anti-depressants took away that despairing numb feeling, but they also allowed me to experience all those other feelings - one of which was sadness (I also experienced intense anger). Sometimes it was pretty intense.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:10:08 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: To eb(Katie,Robyn,Selena)
Message:
Hi women and men,
I just watched a movie I rented called SHINE that is a sure depression-breaker! It is based on a real person (who helped with the movie) and whose hands played the piano for the actor who played him as an adult. The guy is a musical prodigy who spent a good portion of his life in a mental hospital, mostly due to stresses like a tyranical controlling father. He made it through eventually without the help of religion! Please let me know if you love it like me if you see it!

Being on my moon is a borrowed phrase from Native American circles that I prefer to the other alternatives. And I was right, I am today, so that does help explain the heightened emotion the last few days. Now it feels like a time to be peaceful and sort of cocooned, so I an going to try to stay away from the computer for awhile. One women I know lights a red candle during hers, so her family knows to give her care or space, whichever is needed!
Carol
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:35:22 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Hey Katie, David, Selena
Subject: You brought up my stuff!
Message:
the 14-year old gothic malcontent drives me to panic twice
daily


Only twice a day? My 2 and their adolescent yesrs were the reason I learned how to drink and discovered the wonders of tranquilizers. All I can tell you is, they do grow up. And, at least in our case they are back to being the wonderful people they were before the hormones went beserk.

Sorry, all, I know this isn't about being an ex, although it does show that being a premie didn't help me a damn bit when I was going through that.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:32:28 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Off topic-Adolescence
Message:
Thanks Selena. Yup, this child of mine's bound to do me in. She's taught me lots, but I'm on my last nerve, really.

When my oldest son was 16, he refused to go to school. I had recently remarried and was pregnant and working full time. (This was about the time my new husband relapsed for the first time in 10 years). A probation officer threatened to put me in jail if I didn't make him go to school. The kid was 6'2' by then and I couldn't physically do it. At that point, jail sounded like a vacation.

To make a long story short, he apologized for his adolescence a couple of years ago. Nice to hear, but hell to live through.
eb
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 02:05:43 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: eb
Subject: Off topic-Adolescence
Message:
Hi eb,
I have an 18 year old Goth who moved out and is living in Oakland. When she was in High School, she drove me nuts! There was even a period when I hated answering the telephone in the day time because I knew it was probably the school calling to rat about something. I realized that the Goth thing was similar to so much I did in school and after, and part of it was What One Must Do When Their Father Is A Priest. We keep the doors of communication open and we have a pretty good relationship, but I can identify with you totally!
PS to Robyn: I was lucky; my daughter didn't do that staying out all night thing until she was too old for me to do anything about it, but I can relate to what you are going through, too. When I tell my parents about this stuff, they just laugh because they had the notorious Mickey the Pharisee for a son.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:46:14 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Coincidence & children
Message:
Thanks for that very interesting post, Nigel, about coincidences. You've summarised what I already suspected, but in a very clear way.

The most startling coincidence I remember having seems pretty mundane until you think about it. I had ordered a new photocopier to be delivered and it was due to be delivered at my house around midday. Nothing had arrived by lunchtime so I went out to a shop. On my return home there was a message on my answering machine. It was a message from a driver saying that he would be a bit late delivering the photocopier.

I thought nothing of it. When my photocopier arrived I thanked the driver for leaving the message on my answering machine and he said that he had left no message. I replayed the message again and it was from a different driver from a different photocopy company and was obviously a wrong number because they were leaving a message for someone else (named) and not for me.

This means that someone from a photocopier company had phoned my number by mistake and left a message for someone else telling him that he would be a bit late. And this wrong number message came at exactly the same time that I was waiting for my photocopier!

Perhaps one of the most startling coincidences I've heard of was when a boss (here in London, England) had to leave his office and travel to Manchester on business. He told his secretary that he'd left a telephone number where he could be reached in Manchester, on his desk. Fine, nothing strange about that.

The boss arrived in Manchester and was walking along to reach his destination when a public telephone (in the street) rang as he walked past it. The boss, being inquisitive, decided to answer the public phone just to see why it was ringing and was most surprised to hear his secretary in London on the phone. His secretary diligently started to relay some message to him but he could not contain his amazement!

'How did you come to ring this number!' The boss exclaimed and his secretary calmly told him that she'd just phoned the number he'd left on his desk. She read the number out to him and it turned out that she'd dialed his payroll number and NOT his phone number. And his payroll number just happened to be the telephone number of the public phone box he was walking past in Manchester. They were both utterly stunned when they realised what had happened!

Now Robyn, regarding your problem child; I've got another ten years before mine approach that age but if I'm still around then, I'll be very glad to still know them whatever the score. I think punishment may only bring resentment at her age and create a gulf between you. But if she always knows that she has you to turn to when she needs you, then that is a better footing. At 16 she's more influenced by her peers now and if you get too heavy she'll just ignore you. Better, would be friendly warnings and advice given in a non judgemental way. That's just my two penny worth...
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:00:51 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Sir David
Subject: Children & punishment
Message:
Dear David,
Thanks for your input. Speaking of coincidences, I just read this post, as I only have a few minutes, because it was about coincidences and I am into that! I was suprized to read you addressing me at the end. My mom use to beat the shit out of us and if she was mad enough at one and another got in her space she would beat them too. I do not beat my children and even Jade has said I am lenient in general with things I let her do although not with curfews. I have always thought that punishment, ie. grounding but never from the phone, and chores gives a kid time to get through their anger without feeding it with other kids who got in trouble with mine while they are angry at their parents. Secondly, the work, I believe, allows the child to, 1. not be bored during the grounding, 2. to give the child time to just be, not to think but to just do something, I think it is a healing time and 3. to give the child time to think about what they did and their parents position of loving the child but to dispense disipline. I do think I am VERY, possibly to strict with punishments and I rationalize that by saying I am a single mom and have to keep the 'family' together by leaving no doubt that what I say...I mean. Jade has a friend whose parents don't ever punish her, for shoplifting, failing 5 classes last marking period or for being drunk and tugging on Jades friendship loyalty strings even though Jade told me of doubts she is having about this girls loyalty to her!
I am not dismissing your advice, David, as I feel that you are an excellet and loving person and father but I don't know if I can see my way to your point of view. Jade first was suprized that I was mad and then said I was practicing bad parenting but I knew she wasn't seeing the significance of what she had done and so what would have stopped her from doing it again or just not thinking any situation through to its conclusion without the process punishment affords? I would welcome any thoughts you have on what I have written here. It is hard to be a single parent at times like these because I am going it all alone, with no one to help balance/temper my feelings and opinions.
Thanks David,
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:08:12 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: David
Subject: Children & punishment
Message:
Dear David,
Another point, Jade in particular has a problem taking responsibility for her actions and is prone to blaming someone or thing for her bad behaviors although she is basically a very good kid. I think that punishment also gives her a concrete example of being responsible for the consiquences of her actions. Please feel free to dispute my thoughts and feelings here as I would welcome a bit of back and forth on this as to clarify my own position.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 18:20:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Children & punishment
Message:
Hi Robyn,
It might be helpful if you could bring your original post up from the bottom (I didn't see it down there for a long time). There's several moms and dads on here (and LOTS of former teenagers) that might be able to help you.

Take care,
Katie

Mailed the tapes to you and Jade today!
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:17:17 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: original post
Message:
Katie, here it is:

Dear Nigel,
I just stopped in work to check my email while running other errands. Thanks for the address. I'll
check it out during the week. Right now I am in the middle of a parental crisis. The 1st time my 16
yr. old didn't come home or call! She came home at 8am! I haven't slept and am VERY upset, wish
I could get some advice. Right now I am so tired and upset her punishment is a VERY long list. The
problem, or one of them is that she has never thought things through to their conclusion and her cute
little mistakes aren't so cute anymore! A day in the life... I know this is about to go inactive but if you
or anyone have any thoughts on this I'd be all ears, or eyes! Thanks.
Robyn
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 20:52:17 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Children & punishment
Message:
Robyn,

Far be it from me to tell you anything about kids as I don't have ANY and never wanted any. That said, my father was comparable to your mother. One of the punishments he would utilize when his arm got tired was to give out 'work assignments'.

Here's what I learned from that: Work is punishment, work is pain, work is to be avoided. Didn't really help my 'career' much.

Gerry

Last held a job in '84
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:31:19 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Gerry
Subject: Children & punishment
Message:
Dear Gerry,
Thanks for your impression. I can see where that message would get across and I will think about it and talk to Jade. David's message sparked a good conversaition between Jade and myself last night althoug I haven't told her about posting her behavior here! We have also had some arguments but although I can be strick, I am willing to take a 2nd look and don't have a problem with rethinking things and just in general, admiting I am wrong to my children.
One big difference between me and your dad is that I didn't give the work because I was physically tired from hitting her. My mom use to give us a lot of work to do on a weekly basis, nothing to do with punishment. We use to have to clean, and weed in the summer and would only have Sat. night and Sunday afternoon off. I thought that was to much and don't give Jade, as Jess when she was home, much work but Jade is naturally high energy and usually does things on her own without being asked. This has lessend in the last couple of years as her social life has become more important and I don't have a problem with that. She does about 2 hours of work per week on a regular basis. In her account of a suitable punishment she included the work, just 2 or 3 weeks off for good behavior, which I am considering, she will go to her boyfriend's graduation, it was mostly anger that caused me to say she couldn't go to that and of course I wouldn't send her to my mom's, I just told her that because my mom offered and I wanted her to see how serious I thought this was.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:14:17 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Children & punishment
Message:
Robyn,
You are probably doing what is right already. My only suggestion is to try to make the rules clear and try to make the consequences for breaking them be related to what the child did whenever it is possible. Make it as clear as you can that if they break a rule, they are making a choice.
I had a real tough time with my 2 middle sons in their teens. I had to be so strict because they were messing up their lives. They ran away sometimes and broke laws and got caught. I had to also learn that I could not be responsible for everything they did and to allow the world to give them consequences, too. (They are doing good now. Both recently got GED's.)I also recognize now that they both have mild neurological differences that contributed to their difficulties.
carol
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:38:18 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Carol
Subject: Children & punishment
Message:
Dear Carol,
Thanks Carol. I think making the punishment relate to the infraction makes a lot of sence. I don't know what that would be in this case but I'll think about it. It may be to late for this time, maybe not, I'll have to see what I come up with but I will definitely keep it in mind for the future. Hope I don't have to deal with this type of thing to many times though!! She did get in big trouble once before, got caught shop lifting and was taken to the police station where I had to pick her up. The cop was so nice and I think that let her think to lighly of the whole experience a few days later. We have been talking which is good and some arguing which is normal, I think but I do think we are making progress. I really appreciate everyone's help here more than I can express in words. Big group hug here!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 06:17:34 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.cmo
To: Robyn
Subject: Children & punishment
Message:
I'll give you an example. My (step) mother would go on about how I shouldn't do certain things but never gave me a reason why I shouldn't do them. This frustration in me caused me to rebel big time. I think rebelion is good because the child is working things out for themself. At 16 your daughter is becoming more independent and if you just say she shouldn't do something and then punish her for doing it she will just move closer to her peer group and listen to you less and less. This is a normal part of growing up.

I think you have to reason with children and get them to realise that you are more experienced in certain things than they are and that your advice is for a good reason. And that reason has to be explained fully.

If she stayed out all night then she must be made to realise the worry it caused you. At least she could have phoned. And who was she with? Is it a boyfriend and is he likely to make her pregnant. Does she realise the implications of this? I think that showing a concerned interest in her life has more value than just reacting to situations. At her age, your emotional reactions will seem just as illogical to her as her actions are to you. Long term caring bring more love and respect from children than any amount of punishment.

I know I'm being blunt and you shouldn't take anything personally here. It's just as I see it. I believe reason should rule when dealing with children. Children willresent doing anything which they think is unreasonable. I would point out other children to her who have had a less caring background and let her see what pitfalls they fell into. Children have to learn the hard way sometimes but if you're always there in a help and advisory mode, they will listen to you eventually. Tell her about the mistakes you made in your life and how you don't want her to repeat them. It is very difficult being a lone parent and it's not an ideal situation. It's more difficult for you because you have nobody on your side or to support you in any conflict. It's difficult for your daughter because she only has your opinion to listen to and not the strength of two people's opinions. That is why I think it's especially important that she sees you as a friend as well as her mother.

You can't join her peer group but you can be a supportive older friend and I think that's the best kind of relationship any parent has with their children.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:14:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Sir David
Subject: Children & punishment
Message:
Dear David,
I may take what you say personally but take no offense to it what so ever. I value everyone's oppinion who has responded to me here and have much to think about. I did not and do not just give punishments without MUCH conversation. I do give it right away as I have compiled it with each additional hour while she was gone and some of it was in anger and those things I have already recanted (sp?). We talk extensively about what and why. The punishment was given and will be adjusted and discussed but those things come from our discussions about what she did and why. She was with her boyfriend and was 'minding' a drunk friend. There were other kids there too. I'd like to talk to the parents at that house! We have talked about sex and have also talked about it with her boyfriend present, as well as drinking, drugs, college, their futures etc. I really like her boyfriend a lot. They say they haven't had sex and Jade told me about his first and only sexual experience 3 years ago and that it was not good and he wants to wait but also they have told me that they do engage in other sexual activities which I understad. I must say I worry about his not being able to enjoy sex in his life but am pretty happy they aren't doing that and think maybe I'll talk to him about that before he goes away to college. I don't want him getting over it right now if you know what I mean.
Jade has a good idea that she doesn't want a baby now. She has many complaints about the 1st year of our Springer Spainel's puppyhood and we've discussed that that is nothing compared to a baby!
I guess I see the punishment as breaking down her defenses as far as turning away from me toward her peer group. She tells me a lot of things and almost everything about her friends which suprizes me. I would never tell her she couldn't see any friend she has even the ones I wish she didn't have as friends and I never take the phone away as punishment. I think she does feel she can tell me a lot of things even if she thinks I won't like it and I think that is because she knows me well enough to see that I love her and am a real person. I don't think she sees me as the opposing force, most of the time or if she does, not for very long. She wrote to me about what type of punishment she would give if in my place, she did include the work and the things she said she would have different I have explained why I don't agree or to more of them, I am thinking about them and we are discussing them.
I think I show consern for her life all the time. Some times it is hard especially now that I am working so much. I also think this is giving her the impression that she is more on her own and she doesn't need to include me in all these dicisions, I just thought of that. She said she has been think much about all this and sees my side more now. Anyway I got side tracked but I wanted to say that I do show an ongoing consern for her life and also combine that with reacting to situations. I don't see how you could do one or the other. We also do discuss the few friends she has who do not get disiplined and how it makes them confused and more prone to doing things that can harm them.
This is just a thought but in looking back at Jessica's younger days, I think I am someone who is who they are, the same inside and out. I don't hide myself from anyone. I really don't know how to do that. That makes me more of a friend than many parents, I think but I also don't think a parent can be just a friend, older or not. I see my 'job' here, and Jade knows this, as doing the best I can to help her grow into a happy, responsible adult who has a strong sense of herself. Now that Jessica is on her own, and this really started when she went away to college, we are more like great friends now although she still calls for the mom stuff to but the friend part has increased many folds.
I am going to think a lot on what you said here and your last post, David, as well as on what everyone else has posted. I am very fortunate to have all of you for support and see you all as invaluable!
I wonder what views you have on disipline, David. I think you have small children but that is really where it all starts anyway don't you think? I also told Jade today that I had no good parental models in my life and am going this on a wing and a prayer with only my instincts and my love to guide me. I know I make mistakes but that I am just doing the best I can and of course am willing to change my mind and admit when I think I've been wrong which is something it took my mom 39 years of my life to do!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 11:47:38 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: all
Subject: my 2 cents
Message:
I've been reading all the posts on these threads and wanted to tell my own experience. I don't have kids, but I was a really rebellious teenager. My parents drank a lot beginning when I was about 10. By the time I was 15, I could stay out all night, walk out of the house in the middle of the night, ditch school every day, and pretty much do whatever I wanted. I have realized now that this made me feel like my parents didn't care about me (which they didn't, at that time at least), and was also scary because there was no one to help me if I got in trouble.

BUT, at the time, I remember thinking how great it was that I could do whatever I wanted. All my friends were jealous of me because my parents didn't care what I did! I am saying this because I believe that a lot of teenagers think that any restriction that their parents put on them is unreasonable, even if the parents explain why the restriction is in place. Obviously it was bad that my parents let me do anything I wanted (as long as they didn't know about it), but I thought it was cool at the time. I didn't realize how abandoned it made me feel.

I think kids need limits. I also think that teenagers think that they are immortal, and this can get them into big trouble. I think that kids need to rebel and individuate themselves from their parents, and they'll do that no matter how cool their parents are. My sister has a 13-year-old and she is just starting to go through this - it's amazing.

Best wishes Robyn - I hope everything is OK between you and Jade!
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:23:38 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Katie
Subject: my 2 cents
Message:
Dear Katie,
We are communicating through email to but I'll comment on one thing in your post. I think Jade may think her friends who don't have rules and boundaries are lucky sometimes but she knows it isn't good really and she says that she has done a lot of thinking and can see my side more today than yesterday and she can see that her friends who don't have limits are confused and don't know who they are and are big time followers. Jade says she said she needed to contact me and her boyfriend agreed and kept telling her she shouldn't stay out all night but she was swayed by her drunk friend in need. I said, what I would have done, as the cool parent was to let her bring her drunk friend to my house. It is Jade I care about and if she needed to be with her friend than I would have let them come to our house.
I also agree that kids need to individualize and that can be hard on the parent and the child but there are boundaries within which to do that and staying out until 8am is not one I will accept.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:48:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: my 2 cents
Message:
Hi Robyn - I want you to know that I think you are doing a good job of parenting your daughters. I know how hard it can be (why do you think I don't have kids??). It is so good that your daughter can understand that it's not 'cool' to have unlimited freedom. I am really glad that she understands that you care about her and that is why you make rules. I am pretty lucky that nothing bad ever happened to me when I was a kid - it easily could have.

Re: rebellion and individuation - I just wrote that because I wanted to make the point that kids will rebel against their parents no matter HOW cool the parents are! Sometimes it takes a while (my husband didn't really rebel until he left home), but it's healthy. I didn't mean any criticism of you when I said it. I agree that 16 year olds should NOT be allowed to stay out all night without permission.

Take care, Robyn,
Katie
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:51:31 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: my 2 cents
Message:
Robyn, It's kind of funny now, but I let my son bring his drunk friend home (they ere 14!) and he vomited on his way down the hall and into a bedroom! Pizza and booze barf! Ick! This poor kid got to find his drug addicted father dead with a plastic bag on his head in a closet. Don't know if it was suicide or some weird way to get high! Kids respect you for showing caring to their friends when you can.
Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 08:46:54 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Angry
Message:
After reading Katie and Jim's last posts, now it's me who can't sleep. Also I've just finished Three Continents at the same time.
My god! - it is hitting me like a ton of bricks that Maharaji is one big fraud. I no longer believe that he is innocent at all.
To read about the pranaming and the vows and the daily prayers has absolutely sickened me, when I see how the way he acts now is as though none of this ever happened. He seems to be a slick product, all geared up to what people want to hear, what they want to know, playing to his audience.
Playing the role of an enlightened one.
And Katie, I found myself 'agreeing' with you that 'now they encourage premies to seek psychiatric help if they are ill'. But I tell you, Maharaji himself never says one thing about it on his videos. Because how can he, when so much of his talk is about the heart v the mind? If he started to acknowledge that by fixing the mind, happiness can be attained, then he is denying his own philosophy that joy is to be found inside. So he leaves it up to his lackeys to discretely say what 'they' think about it. I tell you, this whole thing is so screwed up and confused, and seems to change every few years. When I first started listening and up until fairly recently, (ie end of last year) there was a kind of 'no talk' rule going on. So an aspirant was completely at the mercy of whoever brought them to videos to explain 'the rules'. Then recently they have now got instructors answering questions from aspirants. But again, it's not Maharaji. He leaves it up to others to explain anything delicate, such as how to help him do his 'propagation', or what to do if you are mentally ill.
I missed out one year on receiving knowledge because I hadn't been going to enough videos (consistently enough. Now that's interesting. At least one a week - just enough to keep you hypnotised, folks!). When I saw M at the event I cried and wrote him a letter saying I hadn't been coming to videos because I was mentally ill (ie depressed ). But that now I would never doubt him again. They asked me to write my name on the back of the letter, they said 'he' liked people to do that.
Now I know they watch the aspirants, they write down their names if they come to videos, to keep track of their attendance. They ask you prying questions about your friends who have come, and what are the problems. I took two people last year who received knowledge, and neither of them is still around. One just plain said he was disappointed with the knowledge session. Called a spade a spade, that guy.
I mean, how many people have been hurt, and will continue to be hurt by this man? Because if the hope and the joy and the contentment he offers is a lie, an illusion only maintained by constantly listening to his propaganda and spending all their money on plane fares to see him, then he is just offering slavery, and making fools of weak-minded people. Desperate people. God, I am so pissed off at this moment in time.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:15:59 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jude
Subject: Angry
Message:
I went throught this, as have others here who helped me in the process. It seems that at first we feel fear about even feeling any doubt. Then we get comfortable with our doubts and begin to explore them and unravel the lies. Then we feel the anger and resentment come. Then we learn to control and direct it.

Anything is better than feeling nothing and equating it with peace. Those still caught up in the lies and rationalizations that support them all have glowing words here for Maharaji and the gift of our own breath that he gives. And that is why their words are met here with mockery or anger from the ex's who use this forum as a means to get back control over their own lives.

Does anyone REALLY believe that Marolyn's daily tears are a result of her own personal happiness? Other than Marolyn??
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 12:38:52 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jude
Subject: Angry
Message:
I understand how you feel, Jude. Putting it bluntly, Maharaji's trip is one big mind-fuck (pardon my French). I am particularly angry that he purports to be a meditation teacher (whereas he used to be God) and yet he clearly has no experience of meditation. That is a dangerous thing and likely to cause great confusion to people who sincerely want to get into meditation.

Meditation is and should always be a simple and pleasant life enhancing practise, away from spiritual dogmas, worship of gurus and any other religious doctrines. And yet Maharaji has taken some simple and basic meditation techniques and marketed them as the 'knowledge'. This is a fraud in itself since the techniques have been around for centuries and are regularly practised by people everywhere.

I have a friend and when I mentioned that I'd done meditation she immediately mentioned the breath (or third technique). Now this friend of mine is not a premie and has never even heard of Maharaji, so it illustrates just how widely known and practised these 'knowledge' techniques are.

In my view it is immoral for anyone to gain wealth by peddling public domain meditation techniques to the unwary. In India a guru could probably get away with this but I'm afraid Maharaji's days are numbered here in the west. He has tried every trick in the book to maintain his hold over people but people have now seen through him and the game is up. Just look at the propogation figures for the US last year; 366 new people wasn't it? I wonder what the figure was for Britain?

In short, Jude, you have every right to be angry that you've been misled by a spiritual charlatan.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:29:24 (EST)
From: Lg
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Angry
Message:
Jude

As Sir David said: yes he is a big mind-fuck (sorry of the language I'm french)!

Imagine having these incredible inner experiences such as 'seeing the light as ten thousand sun', having an astral travel experience which m was in it, etc. I had more than 10 of those experiences especially before receiving k and because of my ignorance, I attributed these to the power of m.

It was very deceiving when I learned that these experiences had nothing to do with him.

The idea of imagining m while doing the 3rd technique (as stated in a post below) of meditation is perhaps in the hope the individual will generate similar experiences and make an easy catch! What do you think!
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:46:25 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Club of angry exes
Message:
Welcome to the club.

I didn't fully realize what it meant, when I started to be really mad at rawat a few months back.
I understood it as some kind of natural reaction to the fact that I was starting to realize how much of a mind-fuck the whole trip really is, and how deeply trapped I was.
I now understand that the best thing I've done was to express that anger in every possible way (towards him): that has been extremely beneficial for me. Not to him obviously, but he deserves that kind of feedback I guess.
I also went through a lot of paranoia, and that too I assume is a part of you getting rid of the BM's cobweb.
His 'power' only comes through his authoritarian position, and there is obviously a lot of fear involved in breaking an authoritarian relationship.
It's a real fear, that's what's keeping you in the trap, and you have to get rid of it, and claim that you don't belong to him anymore. The hell with him.
He can't do you a thing.
In fact I am near to think that he fears us exes.
We are stronger than him because we dare say what we think.
He can't.
He's tied to his throne, and he's going to go to hell on it.

He needs to drink, I don't !
I went to a party this afternoon, didn't get drunk. I don't like that.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 19:07:03 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Club of angry exes
Message:
You mean you don't like not getting drunk? No, I know
what you mean. :)
Well, all I can say is thank you, all of you.
I can see now that while I need to do a lot more
work on myself, I don't have to feel like a freak for
wanting to question and challenge and just plain vent sometimes.
Am I abusive? I don't know, maybe I should ask for feedback about this. I don't want to be. I hope I haven't caused anyone any undue pain.
You know Jude, I am really mad at M, mine is related to those parenting issues already discussed at length. Others feel angry at the losss of years in the ashram. This has been healing just to see what happened to others. Thanks for the thread.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:58:56 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Club of angry exes
Message:
Selena,
I don't think you are abusive. I think you are funny and charming and honest. All that and a blue Samsonite train bag, too...
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 23:13:34 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Powder blue Samsonite
Message:
Selena - just so you know, VP asked me about the significance of the powder-blue Samsonite train case that I mentioned in one of my posts to you (VP actually HAD one! Luckily, it's gone to the Goodwill.) I explained what it was used for in 'Almanac'. In case anyone else wants to know, it's in a book that Selena and I are reading, in which all the drug dealers carry around their kilos of cocaine in powder-blue Samsonite train cases (if you have to ask...don't.)
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 11:52:22 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Powder blue Samsonite
Message:
Thanks Katie and VP.
And, if I had been playing with the samsonite, I would most likely Not be living where I am. Maybe Dana Point or Santa Fe, i am not sure, but probably not here, soul or no soul, it's hard to remember how much soul there is when some idiot knocks on your door at 6 a.m. to use your phone, cause his girlfriend won't let him in cause he's been drinking all night :)
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:04:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Powder blue off topic
Message:
Hope you didn't let him in either - yuk. That used to happen when we lived in Virginia, only it was our next door neighbor, who was an older man who used to fall off the wagon frequently. My husband felt sorry for him (he didn't grow up with alcoholics like I did) but I put my foot down about letting the guy in the house. We did give him blankets and let him sleep on the porch.

Ever wonder why people knock on YOUR door in particular?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:11:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Powder blue off topic
Message:
Boy do I EVER wonder why they pick our door. The girlfriend, the one who wouldn't let him in - lives across the street from us. She is constantly coming over asking for cigarettes, mabye as much as once a week, Thing is, we have told her a dozen times we don't smoke!! Why do they pick our door? Our house looks nice enough on the ouside, and there's a Quickie Mart type thing a HALF BLOCK AWAY!! I don't get it.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:13:04 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Powder blue off topic
Message:
oops that last msg. was From Selena, To Katie.
ahh, monday morning.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:48:00 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Mariachi Man
Message:
The suitcase for drugs made me think of this movie where a mariachi musician's guitar case gets accidentally switched with a case full of weapons. It's a funny but violent movie. carol
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 00:13:34 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Selena
Subject: But here's the sad part
Message:
I cannot deny that there is a sadness, a certain sweet sadness of a dream that never happened. Perhaps in some other life, some other place, the dream will come to pass. Perhaps one fine day, on Earth or in Heaven, I will truly be able to set into being, all that there is inside me; all that we are and the love that flows between us.
LOVE'S LABOUR LOST
I wanted to dance with the One who is everything,
Love was the treasure I sought, never ending.
I wanted to sing my heart out loud
For all to hear of the love I had found.
A dream I once had, alas just a dream
And yet I still pray
One day,
One fine day
Such magic will appear...
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 19:34:37 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Sir David
Subject: But here's the sad part
Message:
I know David. I have expressed so many times here that I miss
the magic, or better put I miss believing in the magic. (see Jim, closing tags, it's easy)
Sorry, Jim.
There are ways to still feel it, Sir David. I was really upset the other day over some reorg stuff that happened at work, and I could not relax. My husband took me 4 wheeling - not that I find that relaxing - but when we finally parked we were in a beautiful remote place. It was so quiet and it was sundown and the wildlife were coming out. Suddenly it all came back to me. And for once since January I didn't have to stop my feeling of it by guilt that I couldn't because I wasn't a premie anymore. It felt so good to breathe the air and be part of it. It's still there. and, we don't have to block our eyes to it because it's a distraction from M, ala that initiator who hid his eyes from the Irish countryside. We are free to feel it the way that is right for us. Maybe you just need to gaze upon the cheese again? :-) If it helps, that story you told when I first came here was a huge part of my feeling better. You created a little magic there, brother, believe me.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 23:46:50 (EST)
From: Pajama Man
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Art imitates life, Jude
Message:
'Also I've just finished Three Continents at the same time.'

Jude,
Yeah, that book will keep you up. How about that ending, eh? What is worse is to read something like Marolyn's letter, and realize that someone is actually out there living the life described in that book. (Didn't Marolyn's ramblings sound similar to Harriet's rationalizations for Crishi?) And Marolyn isn't the only one.

How about when Crishi kicked the crap out of that Paul guy? He just laid there and took it. Sound familiar? How about all of the pathetic devotees doing the wacked out service for the movement? I know it is fiction, but in this case, art imitates life. VP
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 09:09:00 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Pajama Man
Subject: Art imitates life, Jude
Message:
How's this for a coincidence? When I was an aspirant I read 'How I became a Holy Mother' (short story -same author) and thought it was hilarous! I couldnt help seeing some similarities - but no, that was just a story!
I mentioned this story to a friend who was deadly serious about M, and really got the vibe like - oh yeah, you're going into denial again! (about the Lord!)

Save yourself! that's what I say.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:08:20 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Pajama Man
Subject: Three continents
Message:
VP,

Is Three Continents the book by Jhabvala? Just wondering as I will order it from Powells today if it is, along with some other stuff Patty wants. Can save some postage by ordering them together
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:15:43 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Gerry
Subject: Three continents
Message:
Hi Gerry - I lent VP the book, so can confirm that it is by Jhabhvala. I am going to lend another copy I just found to Carol, in case you guys want to share. It's worth buying, IMHO, if you can find a copy. It's out of print, but there are still remainders around.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:27:30 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Three continents
Message:
Thanks Katie, I'm going to order it right now. If anyone else wants a copy there are many in stock at www.powells.com
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:45:33 (EST)
From: jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Three continents
Message:
Sorry,

I missed the beginning of this. What's this book about?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:59:34 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: jim
Subject: Three continents
Message:
It's a fictional story of two American teens, (sort of wealthy, very bored, searching for meaning in their lives) who get involved with an Indian movement. It's the story of how they are subtly indoctrinated by this family who wants them for their money. The movement in the book is very different from DLM/EV in some ways, but in others it is dead-on the same. You have to be clear enough to appreciate how creepy the story really is. I am sure that it has been dismissed as fiction (and it is fiction) by premies as Jude pointed out above. I see a lot of the relationships within the story as art imitating life.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:31:13 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: jim
Subject: Cliff notes on 3Cs
Message:
I will elaborate. The end of that last post was vague. (I don't want to give away the whole book if anyone is planning to read it) The movement in 3 c's is more of a political (rather than just spiritual) movement. They are planning a new world order. That is one big difference between fiction and life. Another difference is that there is a sexual hold that one of the group's charismatic leaders has over various devotees. (Maybe BM has this over Marolyn, but somehow I doubt this when I look at BM.) Maybe this was true of M's instructors? I am not sure about that.

Some things in the story I found to be similar to DLM/EV. One of these is the way that the main characters dismiss the various misdeeds of the movement's leaders. The rationalizations made by the main characters is alarming! The subtle ways in which the leaders control the minds of the main characters is another. The way in which they are discouraged from seeing their families is another similarity. I also (though metaphorically) equated the description at the end of the story about the grand homeland of the movement (the state in which it actually exists within the story) with the state of Maharaji's movement.

Hope this is helpful. BTW, Jim, I have a feeling that you lived this book to some degree, minus the good sex stuff, of course. VP
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:33:27 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: noun and verb agreement
Message:
I meant to say that the various misdeeds made by the main characters ARE alarming. Sorry.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:23:10 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Three continents
Message:
Gerry,
Yeah, that's the one. It is fiction, but it is good. The mind games in it are so similar to the ones you know about and may even have experienced.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:11:52 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs
To: Jude
Subject: Angry
Message:
Dear Jude,
Sorry I am responding to your post so long after you wrote it. I saw your post on Sun. but was in the middle of a crisis at home and didn't take time to respond. I'm sure the moment has passed for you and it will probably come back off and on for some time. I can't remember the exact saying but something like, the best revenge is living well. It is a start and many ex's went back to school or just became content in their lives without the BM! I hope that a few years down the road you will be able to look back and see how much improved YOU made your life. I also think that anger is good now but hopefully you can eventually deal with those emotions and move on so you don't hurt yourself by holding on to the anger. I am not suggesting any time frame as these things can't be rushed but I wish you a healing process and hope we can be a great source of support to you as you move through the process.
Robyn
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 04:54:15 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Postal Address
Message:
Maharaji's postal address (as given by Elan Vital)

PO Box 6110
Malibu, CA 90264
USA

1 310 457-3535
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 04:27:43 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Jack kicked me out (to VP)
Message:
VP,

You said:


I am confused. How did Jack give you an order? What was his position in DLM at the time that happened?


Jack was the community coordinator in Calgary in the late 70's, early 80s. I was in the ashram but, by 1980, I was losing steam. The trip was getting really boring and I stopped hiding the fact that I felt that way. I was also the community treasurer and, together with my assistant, Deb, who I was starting to 'hang out with',I embezelled $18,000 before Jack caught me. When he did, he called David Smith, one of Maharaji's bloodless bigshot lackeys (and old friend of JW's) and he directed Jack to literally hold me hostage in the ashram basement until Deborah came over with the money.

They couldn't find Deb for two days, the longest two days of my life. Quite frankly, Veep, I thought they were going to kill me. It was so bizarre to hear the brothers upstairs sing arti (God, Bill had a bad voice!), then fall to the floor (pranaming). An hour later they came down with my breakfast. Yes, they roughed me up a bit. And all along I thought this trip wasn't about money!

Anyway, they found Deb at the bus station, got the money and let us both go. So, there you have it. Assholes, huh?

Jim

Stole from the Lord in 1980 and lived to tell about it.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 05:48:05 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jack kicked me out (to VP)
Message:
Jim after that experience, don't you feel like you are waving a flag in front of a bull by publishing Marilyn's letters? Do you have some kind of a death-wish? I noticed you have revealed your full name as well here. Do you think this sort of thing still goes on?
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 05:49:36 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Part 2 of above post
Message:
By the way I mean 'death wish' as a generic saying, not literally. Don't want to upset anyone who may read this.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 12:32:39 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jack kicked me out (to VP)
Message:
Jim,
What were you and Deb going to do with the 18 grand?
Rick
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:09:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: We were going to
Message:
Open a Taco Bell.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 18:37:42 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: You putz
Message:
Come on, give me a real answer. You drop one of the most sensational stories I've heard in ordinary premie-life history, after posting here since the beginning of the forum, as though it's just incidental. Making off with eighteen grand? Jesus, man! How could you leave this out of your 'journey'. Come on, give us the blow by blow. That's a great story.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 19:11:25 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: You putz
Message:
Come on Jim. That's not fair. Even if it does involve a chihuahua.
Rick is right, we deserve the story. You are being a tease.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 19:15:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim is a lawyer/criminal?
Message:
Jim,
What a great story! Is this true? It sounds true, but Jim you have such a wry sense of humor and creative wit that sometimes it is hard to tell when you are telling a real story from the past and when you are pullin'someone's chain. VP
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 23:17:01 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim, is this really true?
Message:
Hiya, Jim. I am very curious to know if this is a true story or not (the Taco Bell thing made me wonder). If it is, I must say that Jack has shown remarkable restraint in not revealing it here.
When I first read it I thought 18K sounded like a lot - then I realized it was about what an average ashram premie back then might make in one year (maybe two if unskilled).
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:29:01 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Average earnings
Message:
In 1982, my husband made about $9000 a year working as an aide in a hospital for about twice minimum wage and I got another $2000 in college work-study wages plus loan and grant money left over after school bills. We had no health insurance and if our car broke down we had to juggle or put off other bills to fix the car!
So I think $18000 is about a right estimate for 1 or 2 years wages. Carol
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:26:46 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Ashram premie's earnings
Message:
Hi Carol - I forgot how low minimum wage was back then. I was in college doing work-study too, and we all got paid minimum wage which was $3.65 or so (I know it was a LOT lower 10 years before - like $1.65, cause that's how much I made when I dropped out of high school and started working!).

Many of the ashram premies I knew had one or more years of college - a lot of them dropped out of college to move into the ashram. Some (like JW) had their degrees already. I think a few people had decent jobs, but probably not many.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 00:00:08 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jack kicked me out (to VP)
Message:
Jim,
I just read that post again and I am assuming that it is a true story. Thanks for answering my question. It's nice to get answers when you ask a question, isn't it?

I forgot to answer your question, 'Assholes, huh?'

Yeah, assholes about covers it, Jim. Roughed you up? I thought that only happened in the movies or when one is captured by the ememy camp during war time. That is a very alarming story. I wonder what positive rationalization we are going to hear about this one...

Sick. Sick.

Let me get this straight, you still speak to Jack?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 00:52:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: I'm so sorry (Part 3)
Message:
Hey guys, do I look like someone who would steal from my guru? Give me a break. Besides, Taco Bell didn't start up until '77. I thought everyone knew that.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 01:13:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The real story, VP
Message:
What really happened, VP, is that I started spending a lot of time with Deb (who was my assistant)and Jack must have said something to David Smith, the chief honcho in M's world, at least for our part of M's world. They gave me an ultimatum, I considered it and split.

You have to understand, I don't fault either one of them for that at all. The ashram was a renunciate order; I was being blasphemous. No hard feelings there at all.

It IS kind of funny, though, that Jack slipped into a relationship himself not long after. Mind you, I guess that was when Maharaji said it was okay or something and that the ancient, sacred path of Knowledge, you know, the one where you surrender your life lock, stock and barrel to the Lord in human form, was being revamped.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 07:57:37 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: The real story, VP
Message:
Hahahaha...and I was starting to take you seriously. Feeling lame, VP
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 22:53:34 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jack kicked me out (to VP)
Message:
One Guy at deca in miami was bookkeeper and he obviously
had some of the up close times with rawat and saw clearly.
So HE made off with 100,000$ is what I heard.
Dont remember his name. True story of course, they all are.
He set up company accounts in banks that were all just his
accounts. I remember hearing that they didnt press charges
or pursue him because he knew too much.
Wonder what.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:54:06 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: *>*...b
Subject: more stories
Message:
>Wonder what.

Did he get held hostage in a basement like poor innocent Jim?
If only VP had been around to protect Jim from those mean premies.

Once I stole the premie house VW van on a joyride to the beach for a couple days with one of the girls.
I got a kick in the shin when I got back.
But I survived and got over it - g!

I let a guy stay at my house who some premies said needed a place.
He attacked me in the Ocean Beach peoples food restaruant I was working at when I started to limit the amount of food he could eat for free.
After knocking over a table I had to take him outside and give him a couple whacks.
The police officer who drove by told me I had to stop hitting him and let him go.
A few days later he went up to the ashram and cut his neck in the bathtub with a knife.
And who do you think he called to visit him at the crazy house?
Yeah, I did go and visit him.

CD
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 18:40:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Is he an instructor now?
Message:
Chris,

I'm assuming that your story, unlike mine, was true. Interesting.

Hey, Chris, are you going to answer my questions or what?

YOU KNOW, the ones below under 'Chris through a P.A.'
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:22:28 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Is he an instructor now?
Message:
:):):):)
They may only work with hammers.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:31:24 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Police file - CD
Message:
After knocking over a table I had to take him outside and give him a couple whacks.
The police officer who drove by told me I had to stop hitting him and let him go.


Chris, that must have been one of those really expensive restaurant tables he knocked over, huh? You know, the kind anyone would pretty well die to protect. Or did the tables have Maharaji leaflets on them or something?

Okay, having re-read your post I'm at at the 'are-you-putting-us-on' phase. Are you, Chris? Or were you just really on the word that day and, like Fakiranand, able to do just about anything in the name of love?

(Fakiranand parallel courtesy of Ms. Selena)
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:33:40 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Police file - CD
Message:
>Okay, having re-read your post I'm at at the 'are-you-putting-us-on' phase. Are you, Chris?

This interesting thing is that I was the person the guy requested to visit him after he cut himself.

>Chris, that must have been one of those really expensive restaurant tables he knocked over, huh?

No. It was a 'peoples store' restaraunt. And not a premie restaraunt.
I dragged him outside after he slammed me into a wall.
I did let him go when the police officer suggested it.
You see. I am a nice guy.

Jim, I am assuming that your story of being held hostage in the basement is a wishful fantasy of yours or an acid flashback.

Cheers,
CD
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:20:09 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Police file - CD
Message:
Chris,

Neither, just a joke. Hey, how 'bout those answers?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:18:42 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: more stories
Message:
Your a good sport cd.
I went to bob and larry's roadshow for plato today.
also site server.
The priceing of site server compared to the competition
kind of shows why the opposition is so upset with
microsofts flattening of the price structure in the software
world.
A lot of careers are tied to the more expensive approaches.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:39:29 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: *>*...b
Subject: more stories
Message:
>Your a good sport cd.

I am glad that you can see that.

>I went to bob and larry's roadshow for plato today.
also site server.

I am suprised that you are getting involved in this particular cult.
Hopefully you still find some time for your flatpicking.

Site Server Commerce Edition is still a bit pricey for a small business at $3500 base + $3000 for an Internet connector license.
It is certainly cheap for a Barnes and Noble.

Chris
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:32:13 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Denial Virus
Message:
Jim I want to apologise for what I said in the post about being grateful for still being around, despite the ashram experiences - I seem to have forgotten you telling about your friend who committed suicide - I see now that I am slipping into denial. I recall that denial includes minimising things (they weren't really all that bad) or rationalising them. There are a whole bunch of ways, I remember. Actually the more I think about it the more horrible it seems that I've been in this dream for the past several years where nothing (in this world) is really real. I recall leaving therapy, eventually because I felt this 'mind' stuff, although I needed it to be sane, was actually in the way of knowledge and that path. Now I see that others needing help would not go to therapy for that reason.
A premie said to me, go to M for knowledge, go to a doctor if you are sick - but actually Padarthenand (sp?) said before I received knowledge, that he believed premies are protected from mental, physical and spiritual illness. He saw his life with M as being like a clay pot, which kept being 'cracked'. (then, presumably you get a bigger pot?) It's amazing how many different concepts there are floating around. Must be because no-one ever compares notes.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 03:27:08 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jude
Subject: Denial Virus
Message:
Hi Jude - I also had a premie friend who committed suicide. He really could have benefited from psychiatric help, but I don't think he ever got any. I actually thought that premies nowadays were encouraged to get psychiatric help if they needed it, and I thought that was good. From what you're saying, I get the feeling that therapy is still somewhat discouraged. (I hope this isn't true.)

The person I knew that killed himself was a very talented artist. He was tortured by feelings of guilt that were emphasized by being brought up in a traditional Catholic family. He liked to eat good food, to make love, to have nice clothes, and to enjoy other things of this world; but always felt guilty about it because of Maharaji. At about the time he died, I had a dream that he came to me and said 'I used to be all fucked up, but everything is OK now'. In my dream, he was in a studio full of his own beautiful artwork and I really felt that he was OK. He was very happy - happier than I'd ever seen him. The dream was so intense that I began looking for him to find out what he had found out. I found the former premie site, and I found this site, and I found out he had committed suicide at about the time I had that dream.

I am not sure why I am telling you this story, except to let you know that therapy is/can be important, and that knowledge doesn't solve everyone's problems. I thought that even Maharaji was saying that now, but maybe I am wrong.

Take care, Jude,
Katie
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 05:46:12 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Denial Virus
Message:
Yes Katie the premie psychiatrists are apparently going to get more involved at events I believe.
My personal experience was to be told many times by the Premies who took me to videos that I didn't need therapy, and they tried to discourage me from going. This was when I was completely mad (but no-one can see it). Now I think of it, they probably couldnt' see it because they were completely in delusion-land themselves.
So it depends on the individual I guess.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 19:58:27 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Denial Virus - a question
Message:
Jude, you said :
>Yes Katie the premie psychiatrists are apparently going to get
more involved at events I believe.
=================================================
I am curious what that means. How would that be facilitated?
The reason I ask it, the recents guru-dos I have
attended don't have any mechanism for others to speak.
Just curious.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:38:10 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jude
Subject: Denial Virus
Message:
It's amazing how many different concepts there are floating around. Must be because no-one ever compares notes.

Absolutely! Before this forum there was NO place where premies could get together and compare notes. And this is the 25th anniversary of Millennium!! That's a long time to be silent, eh? Information has always been 'distributed' in a top-down manner around Maharaji. Even nightly satsang no longer allows premies to actually talk unless they have been delegated to run the video presentation by someone further up the ladder. Maharaji yields the microphone to no one, and no one even expects that he would!!! After all, He's Divine!! You listen to gods, you don't tell them anything.

Bruce wrote this below:
I made a promise not to reveal the techniques, and I understand why this is desirable, so I am not prepared to break that promise. I did mention back a bit that I'd never heard of imaging M. as part of the 3rd technique. I think Jude may have mixed something up there. This is one reason for not discussing the techniques. Errors creep in.

This is exactly why this forum is as popular as it is with premies - information is shared here in a horizontal manner rather than a vertical one. And truth creeps in.

Bruce also quotes CD's recommendation that those having problems with the techniques refer themselves to the chain of command by attending a Knowledge review. That is the only acceptable way for information to flow in Elan Vital - from the top down.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 13:25:07 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Jude
Subject: Denial Virus
Message:
Jude, you wrote:
'I recall leaving therapy, eventually because I felt this 'mind' stuff, although I needed it to be sane, was actually in the way of knowledge and that path'

Jude; Whatever this 'mind' stuff was that you needed to be sane, you really DO need it to be sane and the only reason you've labeled it mind stuff is because of what Maharaji or his minions have told you.

There is nothing in the way of knowledge and that path because (1) there is no path (only what you've again been told by M and his minions) and (2) if you want to meditate then there are really no rules nor regulations you need to impose upon yourself other than you actually sit down and do some meditation.

It seems to me that you've been filled so full of crap by Maharaji and his minions that you've been led to believe that there was something wrong with you, when actually you are just reacting as any person would, to the pressures of authoritarian programming by the Elan Vital bullshit.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:44:44 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Someone saved my life tonight
Message:
Captain Fantastic almost got it right:
(with apologies to Elton John)

When I think of those eyeball lights, nectar nights
Baragons in a little room downstairs...
The Seventies are like a dream to me
You aren't God
You are not who you said you'd be
What is breath and what is knowledge?
Listen to me good!
I thought you could be Jesus Christ
How could I
when you don't know that I'm alive?
(ah ah ah ah ah- ah ah)

Someone saved my life tonight,Elan Vital
Almost had your hooks in me, didn't you doll?
You nearly had me roped and tied
Program bound
Hypnotized!
Sweet forum
Whispered in my ear,
'You're a butterfly
And butterflies are free to fly-
Fly away!
High away!'
Bye Bye
(oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo-- oo oo)

Never realized the passing hours
Of Satsang powers
Slipnoose hanging in my darkest dreams
I'm strangled by your haunted social scene
Just a pawn outplayed by a dominating king
It's one o'clock in the morning, damn it!
Listen to me good!
I'm thinkin' by myself tonight
Saved in time,
Thank God my mind is still alive (Ah ah ah ah ah- ah ah)

And someone saved my life tonight, Elan Vital
Almost had your hooks in me, didn't you doll
You nearly had me video-eyed
Altar bound
Hypnotized
Sweet Freedom
Whispered in my ear,
'You're a butterfly
And butterflies are
Free to fly
Fly away
High away!'
Bye Bye

And I could have walked head-on
Into the deep end of a river
Givin' you my stock and bonds
Meetin' you travel demands forever.
Comin' to my senses
Life is mine and mine alone!

Someone saved my life tonight
Someone saved my life tonight
Someone saved my life tonight
Someone saved my life tonight
Someone saved by life tonight

So, save your strength
And run life's field
You play alone!

Someone saved my life tonight,ex-guru
Almost had your hooks in me,didn't you?
You nearly had me roped and tied
Darshan bound
Hypnotized
Sweet freedom
Whispered in my ear
'You have common sense
and common sense will
set you free.
Think away!
Think away!'
All Day!

Just wanted to say thanks again to everyone who posts here and/or who has emailed me, VP
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:58:51 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Someone saved my life tonight
Message:
Thanks to you VP! I remember when I first posted here In January, you and JW and Sir David with the cheese story did indeed save my life. really, I was screwed up big time about this M stuff then and in a whole world of pain. You helped again recently in the premie parent thread. A lot.

When I read that subject line I got worried
I thought maybe something life threatening happened to you tonight. But, then, it is serious isn't it? At least you are having fun with it at times. I don't usually check out the forum this late on a Sat. nite. Hubby is playing guitar at a private thingy and so here am i. It's a somewhat different culture at this time of the day and week, or is it just my imagination?
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:09:31 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Someone saved my life tonight
Message:
Selena,
Thanks. I am glad to have found everyone here. I think back in December I was reading Katie, JW, Brian, Sir David, Anon-great stuff!! I know I'm missing someone. It's so good to hear the more recent things from you, Still Crazy (where are you, Still?) and Jude. You have a lot to contribute -I know that I made the right turn at the fork in the road when I read your posts. Thanks, Selena!

VP
Saved December 1997 ;-)
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:11:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Selena and VP
Subject: Someone saved my life tonight
Message:
Hi VP,
I had the same reaction as Selena when I saw your post. Glad you are OK. Thanks for all you've done for the forum - it's been a lot, and you have really helped people - including me.

Love from
Katie

(Up too late in 1998)

P.S. to Selena. My husband is a musician too. But not professionally, so he doesn't get to play as much as he wants. He does get to play at a lot of blues jam nights at different bars because he plays saxophone, among other things. (there are always too many guitar players there, but never too many saxophonists!)
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:16:30 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: How many guitarists does it
Message:
Take to Change A light bulb? 1 to change the bulb and 100 to say
'I could have done that'

My husband's dad was a saxophonist and played with a big swing type band in the 40's - Gene Krupa (sp?)
I love musicians.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:24:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Musicians off topic
Message:
Will relay the joke. (It's a good one.) I love musicians too, although i do not have a good ear, and have been told that I can't stay on key when I am singing, so should NOT sing.

P.S. This isn't as good as your joke, but: How many rednecks does it take to change a lightbulb? (I feel OK about telling this joke because I have immediate family who are rednecks and who told it to me.):

One to change the bulb.
One to write a country song about it.
And two to go out into the parking lot and fight about it.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:11:22 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Loving Musicians
Message:
Hi everyone! My musician story ties in quite well with this forum. You see, I was living with a premie while dating a bass player in a local band back in 1973. The bass player happened to be mormon, and I still had visions of a temple wedding even though I was checking out groomraji. (I have a lousy memory, and I wonder how I rationalized sleeping with both men--and they knew about each other, too. Ah, the 70's: lots of great sex and windowpane).

Anyway, my bass player boyfriend went back to the midwest. A week later I was raped by a family member who gave me the money to leave town and join the band. Meanwhile, my premie boyfriend was still living in my family's home, playing my guitar. After a couple of weeks in the midwest with my bass player, I was asked to leave. (Perhaps it was after I seduced the drummer).

So there I was, 2,000 miles from home, 16-years old, and penniless. I looked up Divine Light Mission in the phone book, called the ashram, and a nice young man drove out to pick me up and take me to the premie house. I cried all night. In the morning, my premie boyfriend showed up after having hitchhiked through snow to get there. I had no idea he was coming, so this became, in my mind, evidence of god's will for my life.

A few years later I found out that my bass player had died in an auto accident after consuming seconal and alcohol. I was still practising knowledge at that time and felt nothing--no grief--until years later in therapy.

After 3 kids with the premie, I left and found a drummer to father my 4th. My 5th child's father played the trombone. And all the kids play instruments. Music rules but I'm still addicted to divine light.

Thanks for letting me reminice.
eb
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 18:56:23 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Loving Musicians
Message:
Sometimes I am amazed how much alike people here are.
Maybe it's just our generation, our icons were rock
musicians and gurus.
Thanks for the story eb.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:25:43 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: eb
Subject: Loving Musicians
Message:
It has always been easier for me to get angry about the harm caused to others than myself. So. I'm angry about that jerk in your family that violated you using his position of trust!!!Thanks for sharing your story. Many of us here have had more than M in common in our herstories and histories.
Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:25:03 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: don't let the title alarm you
Message:
No,no, thank YOU, Katie...You are the best. I think back to that stupid thread where some jerk (a premie?) was giving you a hard time (the fat thread) and it burns me up. Anyway, heard this song on the radio tonight and I just started to sing this and then I started laughing and I had to post it even if it is kind of strange. Strange but true.

BTW, Our class wanted to sing this song(the real one by EJ) when we graduated from middle school. Can't you just hear 100 little 8th graders singing 'Damn it' at promotion?

VP
Also up waaay too late- 1998
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:29:28 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: The Nightowls
Subject: lightbulbs
Message:
How many Surrealists does it take to change a lightbulb?

Fish.

Listened to Big Star while writing a paper on the Nestorians in China in 1998.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:33:28 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: lightbulbs
Message:
I heard that one and the punch line was 'lips'- get it? Wish I could hear your sermon, but I've got to go to bed. Good night!

Hooty whooo, VP
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:44:42 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: lightbulbs- fill in the blank
Message:
How many __________ does it take to change a lightbulb?

None, there's a reason for everything so they sit in the dark.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:32:17 (EST)
From: Katie off topic
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: don't let the title alarm you
Message:
My brother was high school class of 1982, and their class song was 'Teach Your Children', by Crosby, Stills, and Nash. The song was already at least 10 years old. I'd been through and out of the whole premie thing by then. It made me cry when I heard all those kids singing that song (it's still a good song.)

Katie

Dropped out of high school in 10th grade, 1971
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 09:11:34 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Someone saved my life tonight
Message:
Dear VP,
Went around with that song in my head a bit today! How joyful! Oh, the glee of feeling free!
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 03:37:36 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Someone saved my life tonight
Message:
THANKYOU! That is great! :~) carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:40:05 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net.au
To: Sir David and Everyone
Subject: Questions
Message:

A few threads back, Sir David said,

Until some premie begins to take such questions as these seriously and condescent to actually answer them, then in my opinion, the premies posts here are a waste of cyber space and of zero value.

Before I take the bait,I'd like to raise a few points here from my perpective, having first posted here a couple of months ago.

1. Its hard for me to believe that there is any issue central to M. and K. which premies have not attempted to answer somewhere in this forum.

2 .Many questions put to me by ex- prems are worded in such a way that they appear more to be plays to the gallery, often containing a whole series of answers which the poster clearly believes to be true. Its not encouraging to answer someone who's probably not going to listen to what you say.

3. Quite often when I do answer from my personal experience,
I've been abused, mocked or told that I'm a liar. Mostly by Jim.

4. Often premies are abused for answering by one person, and then a non response is taken as an admission of defeat or avoidance by another. Its impossible to please everyone

5 There is the Jim factor, which I liken to the party loudmouth who insists on being there in every conversation. and makes sure he is the centre of attention whenever possible Can be interesting but makes a quiet talk in the corner difficult.

So David,
I'll have stab at your questions. My personal opinion only.Gleaned from 25 years as a student of M.and K.

Q1. Is Maharaji God?
A.1 No. M. is a person. However a very special one. He is like the tip of the iceberg. The iceberg is god. How much of the iceberg you see is totally an individual thing, and how much you see depends on if you are wearing decent goggles, (K) and how good you are at diving. No amount of discussion and reading will
get you below the surface.

Q2 What about the question in the thread below about Maharaji's command NOT to meditate. A cause of great confusion.

A.2 I have attended a great many K. reviews and my impression has not been that M. commands people NOT to meditate. He advises people to really dive into a deep experience without distraction for a mininum of 1 hour per day. Doing this tends to make me aware of the presence within me for the rest of the day, and I don't see it being in conflict with the constantly meditate direction of earlier years. I still try to stay with the feeling whenever I remember to. It usually remembers me.

BTW, CD did answer this question by suggesting you have a K. review. This is really the only way to understand the techniques as M. is teaching them himself. I made a promise not to reveal the techniques, and I understand why this is desirable, so I am not prepared to break that promise . I did mention back a bit that I'd never heard of imaging M. as part of the 3rd technique. I think Jude may have mixed something up there.This is one reason for not discussing the techniques.Errors creep in.

Q3 Would the people I saw on the beach today in Hastings have the same appreciation for Maharaji or is Maharaji only appreciated by a select few?
A3. A self selected few. You believe in Jesus don't you? He was appreciated in his lifetime by a rather small number of people,right? Some of those people betrayed him, some denied even knowing him . Jesus was a perfect master. M is a perfect master. See the similarity.?

Q4 If you never saw or heard of Maharaji again, would there be any divine experience in your life?
A4 Yes.

Cheers,
Bruce
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:17:04 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Bruce
Subject: Questions
Message:
Jesus was a perfect master. M is a perfect master. See the similarity.?

It always amazes me that people who never heard the term Perfect Master before stumbling into their first video/event/satsang can come away with the awareness that not only is Maharaji one - but Jesus was one too! They can't tell you what color hair Jesus had or if he had a lisp, but they can verify that he was definitely a Perfect Master.

How fortunate for history's sake that Maharaji is here, and that those that view the sacred videos are now able to testify to all that came before their birth! What vision! What a gift!
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:35:19 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Questions
Message:
Brian,

Thank you.

Perhaps I knew something about J. before M. but M.
with the help of K. helped me understand C. and therefore more about J.

As always, looking on the bright side of life!

Bruce
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 07:57:25 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Bruce
Subject: Questions
Message:
Interesting lolly-pop viewpoint on life, Bruce. All that just from concentrating on your breath!

So, tell me - what do you think of Satpal Maharaj? He is the first-born of the previous 'Perfect Master' and is claiming to be the actual current Perfect Master. Doesn't even acknowledge his little brother's existence! Are you ready to embrace him yet, or are you going to be one of those who misses the boat when the Perfect Master appears?

Maharaji spoke in Long Beach last year about when the next Master comes, and said he didn't want him or her to have to go through what he went through. He was ridiculed and ignored by the world's religious leaders when he became Satguru, and I'm sure it was traumatic for him.

So, are you going to make the change now that the next Master has come? Or are you going to be one of those who considers him to be a fraud and makes his mission difficult?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:19:59 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Inheritance
Message:
Yes, by the way the ability to manifest God can be inherited, but only by a few, a select few.
This is their birthright (kind of like British Royalty).
We can never have what The Master has, and he has to have a lot more than us just to make this perfectly obvious. It's really just a matter of quantity.
And his divine seed will pass the knowledge on via his genes (it's all encoded, you know?)

I was trying to say in an earlier post regarding a New Age view of Christ is not that he may have inherited it, too, but that he got the way he got by hard work, not by 'magic'. Therefore, we can all do what he did. That's what he wanted people to see. I mean the infinite kindness and compassion, for example.
Because there is suffering in life, and it's not really an illusion.
When he said the Kingdom of heaven, all the disciples apparently believed he meant a Kingdom on earth, and they were all getting ready for the promised land. But he meant a different kingdom. I don't know that place very well but I still believe it exists.
And like Christ said, in my father's mansion there are many rooms. He always talked in parables, the ones people didn't understand are probably the ones that survived.
I don't know why I am talking about Christ, I'm not religious at all.
Love to you all
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 13:20:14 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Answerd Don't Make Sense
Message:
Bruce, you say a couple of things that I find contradictory, although I do appreciate you saying what you think about these things.

First you say:

Q1. Is Maharaji God?
A.1 No. M. is a person. However a very special one. He is like the tip of the iceberg. The iceberg is god.?


Then you say:

You believe in Jesus don't you? He was appreciated in his lifetime by a rather small number of people,right? Some of those people betrayed him, some denied even knowing him . Jesus was a perfect master. M is a perfect master. See the similarity.?

The first statement is a little confusing because the 'tip' of the iceberg is still the iceberg. But maybe you are saying BM is only partly god, although that makes no sense. But then you say he's just like Jesus Christ, who, in Christian tradition WAS god in human form, and not just the 'tip' of god.

So, which is it? You see, back when I was a premie, BM was going around saying he was the same thing as JC, and also allowed himself to be referred to as the Lord of the Universe, and the Superior Power in Person, and other such names, that would lead anyone who tended to believe him, that he WAS god in human form. Moreover, actions speak even louder than these words, and his encouraging us to worship him, wearing crowns, having us kiss his feet, etc., also showed that he really did believe he was divine and advertised himself as such.

So, did he used to be god, but isn't anymore? Was he never god and just lied about it? If he's just a 'special' man, how can you equate him with JC? It just seems that BM and the premies want to leave it all vague enough so that people can still believe he IS god, but he doesn't have to say it anymore because he would be laughed out of town, and the premies can say he isn't god, but leave it all so contradictory that they can, at the same time, still believe he is.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 13:53:12 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Yeah, JW ,and furthermore...
Message:
...as I recall BM doesn't do much in the way of good works. That was a part of Christ's message. Have compassion for others, and give of yourself to others. Not sit in a corner and give to yourself. I see a contradiciton there.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:22:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: So Right, VP.
Message:
Yeah. How does it go, what Jesus said that's in the new testament? Something like:

'When I was hungry, you gave me food, when I was thirsty, you gave me drink, when I was naked you clothed me, when I was alone, you comforted me... whatever you do to these, the least of my brethen, that you do unto me.'

Question: Can you, in your wildest dreams, even IMAGINE BM saying anything like that? Here's BM's version:

'Service' is only to ME. Don't give anything to these other people, convert it to cash and give it to ME. Visa and American Express also accepted.'
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:48:21 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: M's Good Deeds???
Message:
Exactly. I'd like to see Maharaji washing someone's feet. Healing a leper.

'Even though your friends may turn away'

Anything you do is for Maharaji. Your family and friends and (god forbid,oops! I mean, Maharaji forbid) strangers mean nothing. Getting/staying involved with them is a little too in your mind.

Remember the story of the two sisters who are hosting Jesus in their home? One of them is doing all of the work and the other is sitting talking to Jesus. The one doing the work gets bent out of shape because the other one is not pulling her weight. Jesus says that the one visiting is also doing something worthwhile. (I'm sure I didn't get that completely right- I don't have the passage here.) Somehow I think that M would want everyone working;)!

JW, I asked this earlier, several months back. Didn't there used to be an organization where Maharaji was going to build hospitals and feed the hungry? I remember seeing this brochure (full page sized) with a black and white photo of a hopital bed and a child sitting on it and a nurse or doctor examining him/her. (I was very young and I don't remember the exact photograph, but I believe it was something similar to that.) What ever happened with that? Did it raise money? Does anyone know?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 17:35:13 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: M's Good Deeds???
Message:
Way back before Millennium, and to some extent for a short period after that, BM was touting something called DUO and WWA, which stood for 'Divine United Organization' and 'World Welfare Association,' which were supposedly set up to help the disadvantaged people of the world. I think the rationale for this was that if people were starving, or lacking in basic needs, they wouldn't be in any position to be looking for knowledge or spiritual enlightenment. Anyhow, this was all part of the 'bringing peace to the entire world' speil that BM was talking about at the time.

In the movie 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji?' which I think was made in anticipation of the Millennium program, there is a part that talks about DUO and WWA and that these are integral parts of what BM is about. I recall thinking that what the movie showed was premies building a stage, which I don't think anyone would think was very significant in helping the world. But I recall rationalizing that we were just getting started and that things would really pick up when a few million more people received knowledge and got on board. Funny how that never happened. Also, I recall some time later, maybe around 1977 or 1978, BM made it clear in no uncertain terms that if the 'service' you were doing wasn't to HIM, it WASN'T service. By that time, DUO and WWA had already been abolished.

Prior to that time, premies used to go to senior citizen's homes, orphanages and mental hospitals and stuff and put on programs, or just hang out with people. This was considered 'service.' In San Antonio, some premies worked at a group home for the mentally retarded and a group of us used to go there, play music, dance, and play basketball with them. That was about 1975, but of course, BM quashed that sometime later. He didn't forbid doing that, it just wasn't considered 'service.' Hence, in the ashrams we stopped doing things like that. And, of course, when BM started demanding more material gradiosity, we spent most of our extra time fundraising, like selling flowers on the street (just like the moonies), to raise ever more cash for the lord.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 21:15:06 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: M's Good Deeds???
Message:
Thanks for answering that, JW. I was beginning to think that I had lost my mind remembering that. I remember a premie friend showing me that and saying that, 'Maharaji is doing all of these good works, just like Christ did. There won't be any hunger or need left in the world physically or spiritually.' I thought that was so cool. Too bad it never happened. I wonder if it was ever a sincere thing. At least you did some positive things for a while during some REAL service before 1975.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 02:31:43 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: JW
Subject: M's Good Deeds???
Message:
JW,
I remember all that talk about starting hospitals and stuff.in 'Who Is Guru Maharaj-ji' there is a photo of the 'Sri Hans Humanitarian Services Medical Clinic.' I remember telling my mother about this stuff during one of my 'home propagation' attempts. My mother asked, 'have you ever seen any of these places, any of these hospitals or anything?' I had to admit that I hadn't. And that was probably the very first seed of 'doubt in my mind.'
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:57:32 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: M's Good Deeds???
Message:
That was probably an add for DUO: Divine United Organization. There were rumors of a holy city too that we would form together after the Millenium program and all live together happily ever!
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