Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 8

From: May 15, 1998

To: May 23, 1998

Page: 5 Of: 5



Joy -:- Grace -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 20:47:34 (EST)
__Katie -:- Grace Weldon -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:03:19 (EST)
____Brian -:- That won't work -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:27:53 (EST)
______Katie -:- That won't work -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:06:06 (EST)
________Mickey the Pharisee -:- Way off topic -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:22:58 (EST)
__________KATIE -:- Way off topic -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:27:19 (EST)
____________Mickey the Heretic -:- Way off topic -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:31:28 (EST)
______________Katie -:- Way off topic -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:37:27 (EST)
________________Mickey the Heretic -:- Way off topic -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:44:05 (EST)
__________________Katie -:- Way off topic -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:53:09 (EST)
____________________Mickey the Sleepy -:- Way off topic -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:59:45 (EST)

Annie Sosman -:- Amazed -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:52:27 (EST)
__Jim -:- Well la dee da! -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 12:25:02 (EST)
__eb -:- Amazed -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 12:51:27 (EST)
__Rick -:- Amazed -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 14:09:15 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Amazed -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:35:30 (EST)
____Carol -:- Amazed -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:53:09 (EST)
______Selena -:- Amazed -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:21:51 (EST)
________Carol -:- Amazed -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:37:34 (EST)
________Selena -:- econ 101 -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:42:43 (EST)
__________Carol -:- Why -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:08:24 (EST)
____________Selena -:- Why -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:31:53 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Why -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:43:59 (EST)
________Rick -:- Amazed -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:31:38 (EST)
__________VP -:- To Rick -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:39:38 (EST)
____________Rick -:- To Rick -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 10:50:00 (EST)
__________Selena -:- alpaca? -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:41:39 (EST)
__________Katie -:- Amazed (llamas) -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 03:50:30 (EST)
____________Rick -:- off topic-bird attack -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 10:55:27 (EST)
______________Katie -:- off topic-bird attack -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:09:09 (EST)
______________Carol -:- bird attack & Cats -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:42:30 (EST)
________________Katie -:- Cats off topic -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 20:12:18 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Cats -Ask Dr. Katie -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 20:40:05 (EST)
____________________Katie -:- Cats -Ask Dr. Katie -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:24:28 (EST)
______________________Gerry -:- Cats -Ask Dr. Katie -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:53:24 (EST)
________________________Katie -:- Cats -Ask Dr. Katie -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:06:54 (EST)
______________________Jim -:- Dear Gerry -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:56:43 (EST)
________________________Gerry -:- Dear Gerry -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:19:37 (EST)
__bftb -:- Don't let 'em get to you. -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:38:20 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Don't let 'em get to you. -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:50:59 (EST)
______Carol -:- Don't let 'em get to you. -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:59:30 (EST)
________Jim -:- Carol, your turn -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 23:09:36 (EST)
__________Carol -:- Okie Dokie Jim, I'll try -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:05:27 (EST)
____________Brian -:- Okie Dokie Jim, I'll try -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:02:09 (EST)
______________Carol -:- I'm sorry:Jim,Rick,Selena -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:44:17 (EST)
________________Katie -:- I'm sorry:Jim,Rick,Selena -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 03:10:07 (EST)
__________________Jude -:- Carol -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 05:52:31 (EST)
________________Brian -:- Passive Premies -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 10:59:04 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Passive Premies -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 12:55:47 (EST)
__________________Selena -:- Passive Premies -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 14:18:03 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Passive Jews -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:23:23 (EST)
____________________Brian -:- Passive Jews -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:44:23 (EST)
______________________Jim -:- Passive Jews -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:59:46 (EST)
______________________JW -:- Passive Jews -- Brian -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:33:36 (EST)
________________________Brian -:- Passive Jews -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:42:21 (EST)
__________________________JW -:- Passive Jews -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:15:48 (EST)
____________________________Jim -:- Passive Jews -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:52:20 (EST)
______________________________JW -:- Passive Jews -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:33:22 (EST)
________________________________Jim -:- Passive Jews -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:25:35 (EST)
__________________Carol -:- To Brian and Katie & all -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:11:50 (EST)
________________Rick -:- I'm sorry:Jim,Rick,Selena -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:21:18 (EST)
__________________Carol -:- You may have helped! -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:23:18 (EST)
________Gerry -:- Don't let 'em get to you. -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 12:35:32 (EST)
__________Carol -:- BTW, who are you? -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:28:39 (EST)
____Keith -:- Don't let 'em get to you. -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:56:19 (EST)
____CD -:- electronic bully wimps -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 19:01:19 (EST)
______Selena -:- electronic bully wimps -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 19:21:55 (EST)
______Gerry -:- electronic bully wimps -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 19:33:32 (EST)
________CD -:- comments on electronic abuse -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 14:52:00 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- comments on electronic abuse -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 18:13:22 (EST)
____________CD -:- comments on information -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 20:37:49 (EST)
______________Gerry -:- Gibson through a Marshall. -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 20:52:05 (EST)
________________Jim -:- Chris through a P.A. -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:43:00 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- Oh, one more thing, Chris -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:11:33 (EST)
__________________Gerry -:- Chris through a P.A. -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:13:04 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- Cameron on the table -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:16:34 (EST)
______________________Gerry -:- Cameron on the table -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:37:49 (EST)
______________VP -:- comments on informationFYI -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:52:51 (EST)
______Jim -:- You want to fight, Chris? -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:23:52 (EST)
____Jim -:- bftb, it's your turn -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:50:06 (EST)
______bftb -:- bftb, it's your turn -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 14:54:10 (EST)
________Jim -:- that's all, bftb? -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:49:40 (EST)
__________bftb -:- that's all, bftb? -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 19:13:21 (EST)
____________Jim -:- THWACK! -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 20:47:29 (EST)
______________bftb -:- THWACK! -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 10:59:28 (EST)
________________Jim -:- THWACK! -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:44:16 (EST)
__________________Mickey the Producer -:- THWACK! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 02:36:54 (EST)
____________________bftb -:- THWACK!(tm) -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 10:49:54 (EST)
______________________Katie -:- THWACK!(tm) -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 11:33:29 (EST)
________________________bftb -:- THWACK!(tm) -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:41:30 (EST)
______________________Jim -:- THWACK!(tm) -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:25:35 (EST)
____________________Jim -:- But this is secular music -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:20:47 (EST)
______________________Mickey the Pharisee -:- But this is secular music -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:39:49 (EST)
________________________Jim -:- Stop kidding Ex's!!!! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:14:32 (EST)
__________________________Katie -:- Jokes about what?? -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:13:56 (EST)
____________________________Katie -:- Oh I get it -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:10:18 (EST)
__________________________Mickey the Red-faced -:- Stop kidding Ex's!!!! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:11:30 (EST)
____________________________Katie the gullible -:- Stop kidding Ex's!!!! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:16:54 (EST)
______________________________Mickey the Student -:- Stop kidding Ex's!!!! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:37:35 (EST)
________________________________Katie -:- Stop kidding Ex's!!!! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:05:19 (EST)
__________________________________Mickey the Whatever -:- Stop kidding Ex's!!!! -:- Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:10:21 (EST)
__Selena -:- Amazed? Me too! -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:59:15 (EST)
____Jim -:- Thanks Selena -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:54:41 (EST)
______Selena -:- Thanks Selena -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:36:39 (EST)
__Sir David -:- Amazed -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 20:21:17 (EST)
__Bruce -:- To Annie -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:03:23 (EST)
____Gerry -:- To Annie -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:13:31 (EST)
____Nigel -:- To Annie -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:27:18 (EST)
____Jim -:- Annie, I'm so sorry -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:29:14 (EST)
______Bruce -:- answer -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:20:16 (EST)
________Jim -:- No, Bruce, that's no answer -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:34:18 (EST)
__________Bruce -:- Endless questions -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:41:36 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Endless questions -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 23:02:39 (EST)
____________Carol -:- Endless questions -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:42:41 (EST)
______________Bruce -:- To Carol -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:26:34 (EST)
________________VP -:- Access to Maharaji -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:44:36 (EST)
______Carol -:- Jim:an observation and request -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:25:34 (EST)
________Jim -:- I'm with you, Carol -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:49:41 (EST)
__________Carol -:- On respect,Jim -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:28:37 (EST)
________VP -:- Jim:an observation and request -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 23:31:57 (EST)
__________carol -:- Motives? -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:52:26 (EST)
____________VP -:- Motives? -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:59:24 (EST)
________Richard -:- I'm with Jim on this... -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:35:28 (EST)
__________Jim -:- HOW DARE YOU, RICHARD? -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:19:47 (EST)

Carol -:- Cyberworld became Real today -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:31:20 (EST)
__VP -:- Cyberworld became Real today -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 13:22:01 (EST)
____Carol -:- Musical Potluck explained -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 14:04:04 (EST)
______VP -:- Sounds Cool -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 19:10:19 (EST)

Jude -:- Sense of Self -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:06:12 (EST)
__Jim -:- Sense of Self -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:27:58 (EST)
__Keith -:- Sense of Self -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 06:50:23 (EST)

Jim -:- People Magazine article -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:05:45 (EST)
__VP -:- People Magazine article -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:25:00 (EST)

Keith -:- Cults. -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 21:52:17 (EST)
__Keith -:- Cults and the guru papers. -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:00:53 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Cults and the guru papers. -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 14:55:22 (EST)

Jim -:- Guru Papers (part 1) - reprint -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 20:28:51 (EST)
__Jim -:- Guru Papers (part 2) - reprint -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 20:30:54 (EST)
____Jim -:- What sayeth thee, Premies? -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 20:46:57 (EST)
______Jude -:- Staying free -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 21:52:45 (EST)
________Jim -:- Relax, Jude -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:25:36 (EST)
__________Jude -:- Relax, Jude -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:35:32 (EST)
____________Jim -:- Yeah, but go smiling -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:47:40 (EST)
____________Brian -:- Relax, Jude -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 17:39:35 (EST)
______________Jude -:- Relax, Jude -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:06:59 (EST)
______Keith -:- What sayeth thee, Premies? -:- Fri, May 15, 1998 at 23:07:47 (EST)
______Bruce -:- What sayeth thee, Premies? -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 20:47:41 (EST)
________Gerry -:- What sayeth thee, Premies? -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 20:55:26 (EST)
__________Bruce -:- What sayeth thee, Premies? -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:35:30 (EST)
________Pest -:- What is the point? -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 23:52:35 (EST)
______Bruce -:- What sayeth thee, Premies? -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:47:16 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Guru Papers (part 1) - reprint -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 19:19:04 (EST)
__Carol -:- Guru Papers Thanks,Jim -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:34:59 (EST)
____Jim -:- Guru Papers Thanks,Jim -:- Sat, May 16, 1998 at 23:12:40 (EST)
______Nigel -:- Spying in Guruland -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:00:43 (EST)
________Nigel -:- Found it... -:- Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:55:08 (EST)
__________*>*...b -:- Found it... -:- Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:28:32 (EST)


Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 20:47:34 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Grace
Message:
Hi Everyone,

I received the following e-mail today, as probably did others who post on the site. I found it pretty moving, and asked this girl if we should perhaps post this on the site, for more people to read, and she agreed. I actually lived with Grace Weldon in the ashram in Providence, R.I. for several months around 1980, and found her a very lovely and sweet person, so hopefully she won't mind this being posted, or being 'found' by her daughter. I have absolutely no idea where she might be now, if she's still a premie, or has changed her name again. Anybody with any leads can e-mail Michelle at Pixzey@aol.com
_________

This may sound like a very strange letter and I am sorry to bother you. I am looking for a person active in Elan Vital. She is my birth mother and I am having difficulty tracking her down because she has moved so much. Her name was Claudia Weldon at the time of my birth on June 20, 1971 in Tallahassee. She went by the nickname Candy, which is how most people know her. I have heard that she has changed her name to Grace and has since married. I have great luck so far and found my birth father, he was already looking for me and all I had to do was notify the proper people. I have also found others who have known her in the past and I have been encouraged in my search for her, as I am told that she is a wonderful and caring person. If she is someone familiar to you, please let me know anything that may help. If you happen to still be in contact with her, tell her that her daughter Danielle is looking for her.

I know this is a very strange letter, but thank you for your time.
Peace,
Michelle (aka Danielle at birth)

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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:03:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Joy
Subject: Grace Weldon
Message:
Hi Joy and everyone,
I also got this e-mail from Michelle. She said it is even helpful to her to know where her birth mother has NOT lived. So if you lived in a premie community for a long time and didn't encounter her mom, you might want to let her know - or put it on the forum.

Thanks for putting this on the forum, Joy,
Katie
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:27:53 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Katie
Subject: That won't work
Message:
I also got this e-mail from Michelle. She said it is even helpful to her to know where her birth mother has NOT lived. So if you lived in a premie community for a long time and didn't encounter her mom, you might want to let her know - or put it on the forum.

Not having met someone isn't the same as their never having been there!

Picked blonde kat hairs out of my email in '98.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:06:06 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Brian
Subject: That won't work
Message:
Well, sorry, Brian! I guess I am just making too many assumptions in my effort to be helpful. (as usual...) You're probably right. I still hope she finds her birthmother.

Katie

Listened, uncomprehendingly, to Brian talk about programming the forum, 1998.

Up too late, 1998.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:22:58 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Way off topic
Message:
Hi ya, Katie! How long do you think it will be before the Frank sightings start? I bet he'll kick Elvis' butt!
Michael

Wrote a sermon and then logged on to the site in 1998
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:27:19 (EST)
From: KATIE
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Way off topic
Message:
NO way, man! Elvis is next to God, and is sitting at the right hand of you know who, right NOW! I'm not sure WHERE Frank is...maybe you know?

P.S. Do you possess a recording of 'Elvis: the Sun Sessions'? If not, you need it!
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:31:28 (EST)
From: Mickey the Heretic
Email: sheesh!
To: KATIE
Subject: Way off topic
Message:
I only like the true living Elvis, not the dead drug-addict Elvis.
It was Frank's world and we were just living in it. Now it is the world of the Guru Mariachi. Viva!
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:37:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mickey the Heretic
Subject: Way off topic
Message:
Viva Guru Mariachi (a.k.a. Michael)! My choice for the next LOTU. At least you've got the documentation (M. Div.) Us academic types respect that.

By the way, I wasn't kidding about 'the Sun Sessions'. If you've heard it and don't like it, OK. If not, you need to. (I swear I am NOT trying to convert you, Michael, honest!)
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:44:05 (EST)
From: Mickey the Heretic
Email: whatever
To: Katie
Subject: Way off topic
Message:
No, I've heard the Sun Sessions and they are good. I just didn't get into Rock 'n Roll until the Beatles, and Elvis never meant that much to me. The first rock song I ever heard was 'Sherry' by Frankie Valle and the Four Seasons; it was terrible!! I didn't listen to rock again until 1964! But the Beatles and the Stones and all that British Invasion stuff was great ( I HATED the Beach Boys and Jan and Dean, but I did like the Ventures and Surfaris).

Stayed up talking with ex-premies when I shoulda been in bed in 1998.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:53:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mickey the Heretic
Subject: Way off topic
Message:
I am a big rock and roller from way back. I love rockabilly, and I I LOVE the Sun Sessions. If you'd like a tape, I'd be happy to make one for you. My favorite is Elvis doing 'Blue Moon of Kentucky' rockabilly style (I like the original -Bill Monroe - too - you probably do not!) I hate Frankie Valee too, btw. All the new wave bands I used to go see used to use 'Walk Don't Run' by the Ventures as their intro. Maybe you did too?

I would love to find some kind of music we have that you'd like to hear, as you can probably tell. Guess it is probably hopeless, unless you're interested in some of Peter's more esoteric (but not punk/NW) stuff.

Take care, Michael. Hope that school is going all right, not to mention family matters (such as being a PK?).

Katie

Katie
(your lapsed parishoner)
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:59:45 (EST)
From: Mickey the Sleepy
Email: Yes, please
To: The Lapsed One
Subject: Way off topic
Message:
The Sun Sessions sounds good. How esoteric is Peter's stuff? I have lots of weird stuff, too! I DO like Bill Monroe, and I really like Texas Swing, but I can't listen to that Pop Country stuff.
I gotta get up early and drive for two hours to preach and preside at a little parish near the beach by Monterey, so I'll sign off now!

Did a Live version of Louie Louie on the Radio with Richard Berry and Jack Ely in 1983!
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:52:27 (EST)
From: Annie Sosman
Email: aerily@aol.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Amazed
Message:
Greetings from the outskirts of DC, where the lawyers
and politicians and analysts endlessly defend and persecute,
prosecute, debate and legislate and everyone has a point of
view, and where no one is actually right or wrong, and many
if not most are quacking and talking and screwing and jerking
off and thinking and clobbering one another in some form.

I went to the recent event in Miami, it was lovely and it
was simple. Maharaji is not deceiving anyone. I received
Knowledge in 1972, like John also from Parlokanand, who came
to our goofy farm and cooked corn on the cob over an open fire
for about 50 people, and spoke of the grace of life, served
the corn with fresh lemon and black pepper, it was
excellent. The next day we went sailing in Halifax and
I felt then, as I do now, 26 years later, that I don't know
much about anything, not really; though I am sure I know this:
I love the fullness of love, in its many manifestations, and
I love the feeling of stillness. I am sure that I have never
been deceived by Maharaji; that Knowledge is the core
of who I am; that my own mind leads me on one adventure
after another and that everything is an opportunity to
learn; that I love kindness, and wisdom, intelligence and
beauty and depth and humor, simplicity and complexity
and paradox, finding keys to locks and solving mysteries
and I love creativity especially from within myself, when
there is a feeling of being filled up and entertained
by an amazing power, energy, the whatchamacallit, Life.

I don't want to try to chop up the experience of these
precious days into intellectual pieces which may all fit together
but never, ever satisfy me. There is an experience
of a presence -- when I stop for a moment all the conversations
in my head and try to see, feel, my life and the world around
me as brand new -- as if I were just born, didn't know ANYthing
yet. It is a magical life: it is an amazing thing, way beyond
analysis or definition; and fJHi, my take on the guru papers is
that it's someone's point of view, and has absolutely nothing
to do with my own personal experience of Maharaji, knowledge,
my years in the ashram.

It is Maharaji who has been my mentor, teacher, my greatest
advocate. In these past 26 years with Knowledge, so much has
happened! Births, deaths, discoveries, archaeological digs --
discovering my roots, my guts, my own self, how to
think for myself, how to feel my own feelings, how to FEEL!
-- how to be me, unique. I don't even think about a
hereafter or reincarnation as I did when I was young, for it seems
as though I have lived and died so many lifetimes in these years.
I feel like the legendary Phoenix -- repeatedly surprised to find
myself, still alive despite the shedding of layer after layer
of what I thought I knew, & who I thought I was. I am beginning
to actually perceive something like endlessness, growing,
learning, beauty, fascination, amazement -- amazing.

To me Maharaji is like a fountain or a well;
his presence in the world and his effect on me
makes as much sense as this: there is water in me, yet I
thirst for water; there is a self-replenishing ocean
and because of that I can drink.
Through Knowledge I have seen for myself, experientially,
that the well is both within me and outside of me.
I have seen and felt the magnificence of life and inspiration
come through many people, places, things; and still, none has
inspired or affected me to the extent that Maharaji has.
I love him.
Best wishes to all,
Annie.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 12:25:02 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Annie Sosman
Subject: Well la dee da!
Message:
How sweet, Annie. How precious. Really, isn't that a lovely thing, there, amidst the swirling, confused, snappy ol' world, at the center of it all, but just hovering above, is the happy devotee with an image of Krishna.... no, that's not Krishna, that's Maharaji, sitting in her heart.

Annie, if Shri Hans Productions ever makes a feature film of how Maharaji saved the world, and they can't get Sally Fields or Marlo Thomas for some reason, you should go for it. I can see you running, hopping and skipping through the fields, waving your big, straw hat, spinning and laughing. 'Hello, Mr. Groundhog,' you'd giggle, 'do you know whose day it is today?' Then you'd stop, your hands on your hips, pretending the little creature was answering and that you could understand. 'No, silly,' you'd wag your finger (all in fun really, but you're SUCH a good actress!) 'it's not Groundhog Day, it's Maharaji Day!'

Then you'd laugh and twirl again and open your arms up to the birds in the sky. 'Oh my feathered flying friends, do YOU know what day it is?', you'd cry to the passing swallows but they'd just keep flying as if to say, 'yes, we know already, you're nuts lady.' But you don't hear that, you don't even imagine that, you're so full of love. Whose love? MAHARAJI's love! Oooooh, it just feels so good! Yummy in my tummy!

And then your widdle tummy hurts just cuz de widdle wuv's so sweet, and widdow wannie walks over to the brook and bends to scoop some water and, wooking down sees her widdow, widdow face refwected in de water and who's face does she see? Why, she's become a widdow baby all over again!

And then you feel a shadow and shiver for a second and look back down cus this time you know, you can already tell, and sure enough behind you, there he stands, he is so great, and sweet and merciful. And you turn to face him but something within inside makes you fall like shaking dew at his golden feet again, oh when was it before, the last time? You almost can remember, it feels so long ago, yet was it ever? Your tears fall faster and he reaches out and, for the first time touches you softly on your shoulder, like sunshine, (and for a second you realize that John Denver really knew, he really knew after all!) but then he says,
'oh my child, I am always with you, I have given you the love, the magic, which gives you the peace, which is love, let the magic happen!'

And you are speechless, there is no thought, thee is love. And down below, far off, through the haze, you look for a second, just a second do you steal from your beloved. You look to hear the din of loneliness of busy-ness down in the city, and now you cry for them, for they know not, the people in the city, but then your heart rests again, for this is faith and you need to understand although, at this moment, you finally do remember that you never have to ever think again, he has literally shown you how think for yourself. The trick is to pretend you're a baby and yes, you marvel at the simplicity, the magic wafting over you in soft, pulses like your breath. It IS your breath, you know understand, and then you cry a little more and fall to kiss his feet again, but he is gone, and you are still inside. You are full, full of love, full with fullness and content with contentment.

Well, la dee da!
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 12:51:27 (EST)
From: eb
Email: None
To: Annie Sosman
Subject: Amazed
Message:
Greetings from the land of harmony and peace; where the habitants are friendly and supportive and love reigns o'er us all.

That thou hast remained in darkness for 26 years is most truly amazing. That thou findest the source of thy water available only within the capricious Maharaji, pitiable. Thy words serve as a reminder of the insidious, duplicious cult from which we, the enlightened have emerged.

Ah, don't you see? We were as you are: content to allow our true natures to be hypnotised through metaphor until our collective consciousnesses slept. We rested our scurrilous thoughts on the pillow before his feet. The maya of guru/devotee threatened to suck the life force from us until, by some miraculous grace, we were saved.

Annie, save yourself.
eb
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 14:09:15 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Annie Sosman
Subject: Amazed
Message:
Wow! What a crisp look into psychosis. Twenty-six years. You pathetic poser. You pathetic loser. What happened to the real Annie? My God! What happened to you as a child? Were you dropped on your head?

Look, I hate to bother your silly reverie, but you're not the only person on this 'planet'. Do you say 'planet', Annie? There are people who are really suffering while you indulge in your arrogant delusions, and if you want to do spiritual masturbation, it's your life... but don't talk about how you don't know anything and then go into a diatribe about how much you really know. What little drops of wisdom! What little drops of mercy! What drops of fucking mercy? What kindness? What is your kindness? To hide in a little make believe world that even most premies aren't disconnected enough to conjure? Annie, you wouldn't know the real Annie if she came up and bit you on your ass.

Jim, tell me she was being tongue in cheek.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:35:30 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Li'l Orphan Annie
Subject: Amazed
Message:
Annie

Reminds me of my own first post to this forum. Only better. God I wish I'd said that.

PS When are are going to say 'just kiddin'!?
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:53:09 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Amazed
Message:
Your communication skills are vastly in need of improvement! Vicious and hateful is how you want to appear??? What possible good do you think it does to express yourself in this way???You might succeed at hurting someone's feelings if that is your aim.

Psychologists who used to approve of venting rage and hatred have discovered that it is not as helpful as previously thought. You get burned yourself in the act of throwing hot coals! You are the one who gets to feel all the bad feelings that you vent.

To me it just looks immature and spiteful. But then, maybe it is just a game for you. Since I don't know you at all I don't know. Just giving you a reflection of the impression you are making. I am new to this venue, and I prefer that people treat eachother with decency. Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:21:51 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: Amazed
Message:
Does that mean Rick isn't invited to the llama farm?
Don't fret Rick, I live in a white trash hood on a
half acre in the middle of the city, and we have a cat
and a dog you can visit...just let me know if it
sounds irresistable. ps, we also play music, problem
is one of us depends on it for a living.
thus, no beach house with llamas.

so sad...
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:37:34 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Amazed
Message:
It's 70 miles from the ocean! And Rick would be welcome if he didn't come to call names, etc.! I hope you don't resent me simply because I live in a nice home and have the luxury to have llamas! I have been very poor at other times of my life, from childhood until I was 36 and I know how hard it can be to live from check to check and not have a car or medical care and so on. I am lucky to have the marriage and physical security that I do today. I try to help others by volunteering at hospice and at my son's school and we donate to several organizations that aide others quite generously.
Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:42:43 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: econ 101
Message:
Carol, I don't resent or envy you.
What does bother me is your current self righteous 'correction' of people's posts.
We are communicating and having fun, and also working thru stuff. What do you feel you have to let us all know how to play?
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:08:24 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Why
Message:
Answer to your question:Just because I am here and I don't like to play that way. Do you want me to go away so you can have more fun? I don't want to. Maybe I should start another site where there are rules about the way we 'talk' to eachother. I am not the only one here who feels the way I do about it. (About another site:I'd need to take a computer class about it though because I don't even know how to make a web-page yet.)

Must you judge me as self-righteous when I question the motives or value of a way of communicating or I answer to explain my views and share my experience? Aren't you just disagreeing with me? I can't stop anyone from saying or doing anything that they want at this forum. Since it is open rather than a screened membership I have as much right as you to post here and express myself how I choose. Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:31:53 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Why
Message:
Good luck with a controlled web site with 'rules' on how one
can speak.. learning the computer stuff will be the easy part.

Truce OK?
Selena - resident politically incorrect brat - off to watch Jerry make a fool of himself on tv. May 1998
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:43:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Carol and Selena
Subject: Why
Message:
Hi Carol and Selena-
One of the good things about this site is that both of you can express yourselves the way that you do here. I respect both of your viewpoints. Mine probably falls someplace in between, but so what! I like llamas, cats, dogs, Oregon and white trash neighborhoods too.

One thing I want to say is that Annie has posted on here before so a lot of us know who she is, and something about her, and that Jim knows her very well since he lived in the ashram with her (Annie wrote a great post about that once!). That may help place some of the comments into context.

Regards to all from
Katie
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:31:38 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Amazed
Message:
I love animals, Selena, especially cats. What is it with llamas? Is it the status? Are alpaca sweaters made from llamas? Anyway, your place sounds fine. I'll take soul in a white-trash neighborhood over a llama farm, anyday. Thanks, Rick
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:39:38 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: To Rick
Message:
Rick,
while you are here, where do you live-east or west coast? From the clock, I would say west. ( don't answer if this is a secret...)

VP
wanting to get together with ex-premies after reading Carol's post above -1998
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 10:50:00 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: To Rick
Message:
VP,
I live in Northern California. Where do you live?
Rick
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:41:39 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: alpaca?
Message:
Sorry, as much as I love clothes, I don't know that one. Must be cause I live in a warm climate. Ditto for the llama thing. I love animals but I'm not too crazy about the big ones.
Yeah, there's something to be said for my neighborhood. Plenty of material for stories, that's for shure!
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 03:50:30 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Rick
Subject: Amazed (llamas)
Message:
Hi Rick. I think Carol said that she had llamas because she liked them. Also, I know because of where I have lived in the past several years, that they are good sheep 'dogs' and also good for pack trips into the mountains (better than horses). By the way, I have two cats, and although I love all animals, cats are probably my favorite. Glad that you like them too - cats need all the friends they can get these days.

Katie
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 10:55:27 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: off topic-bird attack
Message:
Katie,
Birds are attacking my cat, Freddy. They are small birds and they perch in a tree outside our house. When Freddy comes out of his cat door, three or more of the birds swoop down, circle him at lightning speed, and make a sharp clacking sound, sometimes nipping his butt. They even do it when he's walking or running in a direction away from the tree. Have you ever heard of anything like this? Maybe I need a llama.
Rick
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:09:09 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: off topic-bird attack
Message:
I used to have the same problem with mockingbirds. They even pecked my cat's back bad enough to make a sore once. It's sort of like 'mobbing a hawk' - not sure if you've ever seen birds do that. A swarm of smaller birds will surround a hawk and harrass it so much that it flies away from their nesting sites. Anyway, I don't let my cats out anymore after some bad experiences (not with the birds), so don't have that problem anymore.

The birds are probably really agitated right now because it is nesting season. I have noticed some robins (not Robyns) lately having fits because one of my cats is just sitting in the window. I don't think there is much you can do about it except make sure Freddy has places to go under to hide from the birds.

P.S. My husband and I are still laughing about your sister putting the little picture of M by the cat food dish!
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:42:30 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: bird attack & Cats
Message:
The birds are probably nesting nearby. I've definitely seen them get protectively aggressive to cats.

I also have one of the best cats in the world: a wandering stray who came to us 3 years ago that I named Sahdu. He is all white with a crooked black-stripe 3/4 length tail and one blue eye and one green. He has the coolest personality towards us, but he is extremely aggressive and territorial and has attacked other cats who we've tried to adopt. We used to have 5 cats, but one died before we moved to this acreage and 3 others were eaten by coyotes (disappeared in the night) shortly after moving here. One old one lives in a separate shop building to stay away from Sahdu. I'd like to get a kitten, but I'm afraid Sahdu would hurt it. Anyone know if a kitten would set off his attack-mode?
Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 20:12:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Cats off topic
Message:
Carol - I used to say that one could adopt a cat of the opposite sex and the dominant cat wouldn't be as aggressive to it. My sister in law has a older female cat and just adopted a male kitten and it's been a big problem, so I guess that's not true. She's had the kitten for three months and the vet is still saying not to leave the two cats alone together. I would say that your best bet would be a female kitten (less threatening), but they should definitely remain under supervision (and the kitten might have to go to another home.) Sometimes cats like that actually prefer dogs as companions! I highly recommend a book called 'Is Your Cat Crazy' by John C. Wright for cat psychology problems (I've used it a lot for one of my lovable but nutty cats).

Sorry about your cats disappearing - it sounds awful. We had friends who moved from Virginia (where they never let their cats out) to Richlands (sp) in Washington State, where they started letting them out because they figured it was safe. Anyway, one of their cats disappeared, and the neighbors thought it was coyotes. They were really upset - the cat meant a lot to them. No coyotes here in Missouri, but I still don't let mine out (too many cars and crazy people).

P.S. I got your e-mail - thanks, and will answer soon. The forum was pretty intense for me last night as well.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 20:40:05 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Cats -Ask Dr. Katie
Message:
Dear Dr. Katie,

I'm about to get a kitten and was wondering about how my 11 year old boy might react. He's a castrato of course and other than singing in a rather pleasing soprano, he's quite a well adjusted fellow.

He seems to be ok with other cats, in fact he was totally non-plussed when the neighbor's cat installed herself and her six kittens in Patty's clothes closet. Patty was less 'non-plussed'.

We live in Western Washington state also and have a pet door so he comes and goes as he pleases. This place is thick with coyotes. I guess he's a fast runner. One night I shined a flashlight out the back door towards the forest and saw about forty pairs of eyes staring back at me.

They do indeed keep the cat population well thinned out, as few people bother to spay and neuter their pets around here. Hey, coyotes have to eat too. The adults bring the pups down to the houses and teach them where to find the fat tasty house cats. Few cats live past two years here. The kids don't seem to mind. They just get another one.

My question, Dr. Katie, is should I lock the pet door in case Bocephus (the cat) gets pouty and wants to tent in the back yard for a while? The new cat, also a male, is a hairless sphinx with big ears and a bony looking chest. He has a dark skinned body with a blond wig and I'm afraid Bocephus may want to kill it just so he doesn't catch what the new one has. Is this a problem?

Anxiously awaiting your answer.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:24:28 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Gerry
Subject: Cats -Ask Dr. Katie
Message:
Hi Gerry - if you have that many coyotes around, I'd definitely keep the 11 year old in at night while he is adjusting to the new boy (if you want to keep him that is). I have seen older females just take off (and never come back) when new kittens are introduced to the house.

It doesn't sound like your cat is a kitten killer, but you might want to keep them separate for a while when no one is at home (why are you getting a hairless sphinx, by the way? I don't have anything against the cats per se, but there are a lot of nice cats at the animal shelter).

By the way, the average that ALL cats that are allowed to go outside live to is 2 (even where there are no coyotes). The average age that inside cats live to be is 12. That's why I keep my cats inside (unless I'm with them).

P.S. I ain't no cat expert (except by living with them and reading a lot) so you might want to ask your vet, too. Or get the book I mentioned to Carol - it's great and also funny. Hope this helps.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:53:24 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Cats -Ask Dr. Katie
Message:
Katie,

I have seen older females just take off (and never come back) when new kittens are introduced to the house.

I probably wouldn't have thought about the pet door if you hadn't started this conversation--thanks, I'll do it. Hate to lose the boy.

Bocephus is a animal shelter kitty and turned out to be a real sweet boy. The sphinx are just so weird looking I wanted one. No rationale or logic to the decision. Just plain ole desire.

Didn't know about the two year life span of outside cats. Bocephus is a real 'scaredy cat' and rarely ventures off the porch or back patio. Smart fella. I guess cars are the natural predator of cats in urban areas.

Thanks for the tips.

PS Patty just said this: Bocephus may not recognize the kitten as a cat, but it will still smell like a cat. ( Ithought it was funny, but maybe you'd have to be here.)
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:06:54 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Gerry
Subject: Cats -Ask Dr. Katie
Message:
Hi Gerry - just one more thing - I don't think Bocephus will have any problem recognizing the new guy as a cat (your wife is right that it is the smell, I think.) Bocephus sounds like a great guy - hope they get along. I have an older and a younger male and they tolerate each other (occasional fights, but nothing serious), but I have seen older male cats really get into 'adopting' kittens. That's cool, if it works out, but not something to be expected.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:56:43 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Dear Gerry
Message:
I'm about to get a kitten and was wondering about how my 11 year old boy might react. He's a castrato of course and other than singing in a rather pleasing soprano, he's quite a well adjusted fellow.

Gerry,

I read your post with some interest. See, my girlfriend's kid is a real nice guy for sure but, I have to say, he does not have a particularly nice voice. However, he's already 19 and I wonder, do you know if castration at that age is effective? We're ready to try anything.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:19:37 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Dear Gerry
Message:
Jim,

I can only think 'better late than never'. But you'll have to ask Dr. Katie.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:38:20 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Annie Sosman
Subject: Don't let 'em get to you.
Message:
Wow.These guys act pretty tough,huh?

Annie,I think that you are a nice sensitive person and I hope that you have a sense of humour and don't let these guys get to you.I'm not sure if I'm confusing you with another past poster,but if you are who I think you are then I could see you having been emotionally affected by the thoughts that were conveyed to you in an unnecessarily hostile way.

Of course posting what you did to this site was an invitation to those predictable responses you've received so far.How these people think that talking to you that way would make you(or anyone else for that matter) open to the ideas that they're trying to convey is over my head I guess.

Thanks for sharing.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:50:59 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: Don't let 'em get to you.
Message:
First of all, nothing said on this forum is going to change the minds of the true believers. This forum is aimed at those sitting on the fence, IMHO. So what if the responses to her nonsense shake her up a little. She must be standing on a mighty shaky platform to begin with. Call it 'tough love'. Much more caring and better than coddling her and her fantasies
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:59:30 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Don't let 'em get to you.
Message:
Hi Gerry,
It was really nice to see you! I hope next time you will both come to my place.

But, I disagree with your approval of aggressive and sarcastic communication. I think you enjoy 'seeing' a good fight on an entertainment level. I think it detracts from communication to put people on the defense with name-calling and sarcastic and sometimes very personal attacks.

Carol
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 23:09:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Carol, your turn
Message:
I disagree with your approval of aggressive and sarcastic communication. I think you enjoy 'seeing' a good fight on an entertainment level. I think it detracts from communication to put people on the defense with name-calling and sarcastic and sometimes very personal attacks.

Carol,

You're missing the point. First, what's wrong with a little entertainment? If you're thinking that that's mutually exclusive with effective communication, I disagree. Second, what's wrong with putting people on the defens[ive]? Sometimes, not always, that's when people start re-thinking their positions. Now, that's not too likely in the case of a cult member, but it IS possible.

Anyway, like I said to bftb, if you've got a better way I'd love to hear it. And I DON'T mean generalities, either. Go on, let's hear YOU reason with Annie.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:05:27 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Okie Dokie Jim, I'll try
Message:
Why do you feel we need to try to reason with her? If it is your service to try to turn people away and you think you are accomplishing it by the way you are now doing it, which includes the harsh put-downs, then I can understand why you are doing it. Maybe it has accomplished your goals before. Maybe I just don't understand what the goal is. Maybe it is her belief that her testimony will help turn fence-sitters back to her Maharaji. Jumping on her(metaphorically) isn't likely to change anything in my opinion and experience.

My experience with what is effective and what is detrimental to open communication comes from personal experience in several different family counseling sessions, from relationships, and from education. I've been married 3 times and have 4 kids from 9 to 29 years old. The middle 2 boys (and their father who was/is a premie) were extremely difficult to communicate with during their teen years and we got lots of first-hand experience with what worked and what did not work, both by trial and error and with the guidance of professionals (who were not always very good). I received a college degree in 1987 in education and studied communication and psychology and sociology as part of my coursework (and I got all A's except 2 classes: sign language and physiology.Brag!)

In a family or relationship, the assumption is that you love or care about eachother. When you have conflict, you want to try to resolve it so that each person is heard, even if you disagree vehemently; then you need to problem-solve. It just doesn't work if everyone is either on the attack or defense. More problems are created because of bad communication. It was a major problem in my first 2 marriages. I/we finally learned to do it better in my 3rd marriage!

My assumption is that this forum is not just a place to rant and rave, but a place where people who sincerely care for human beings much like themselves can explore and express and revise their beliefs due to insights they gain from the opportunity to hear the opinions of others.

Your initial response to Annie was an ironic joy to read because I could identify with it, and it actually touched my heart and showed me that you also had loving experience at one time even though I knew you were being sarcastic. I don't find fault with people simply because they love, even if their love is based on a false premise. People who love and try to be loving to all who they encounter are not dangerous to our existence the way that people who hate and fear and stockpile weapons. Love may be foolish, immature, or sappy, but it is still love.

A false belief in a Guru by a devotee does not harm anyone but the person who has it, if they are wrong. Unless they are doing harm to people by their position of authority. It is not the same thing as the power and authority exercised for selfish gain that you believe Maharaji has knowingly weilded (and some mean premies you may have known who had positions of authority). As you know, I am not convinced that M does anything other than to believe in himself and his service to spread knowledge and to do it anyway he likes. It kind of takes the steam away from the vent if you find out or believe that he is sincere and and has simply made many human mistakes due to his delusion about being the only source of knowledge.
Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:02:09 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Carol
Subject: Okie Dokie Jim, I'll try
Message:
A false belief in a Guru by a devotee does not harm anyone but the person who has it, if they are wrong. Unless they are doing harm to people by their position of authority.

Anger expressed at people who continue to justify belief in a cult that took many years of your own life isn't unwarranted, Carol. That this same sort of logic is lathered onto aspirants daily doesn't seem to bother you. If they swallow the party line and stumble in here in a couple of years, do you think they might be a bit miffed that we were playing touchy-feely with those that conned them? You're not arguing content here with Jim, but rather asking him to please express his anger nicely.

I am not convinced that M does anything other than to believe in himself and his service to spread knowledge and to do it anyway he likes. It kind of takes the steam away from the vent if you find out or believe that he is sincere and and has simply made many human mistakes due to his delusion about being the only source of knowledge.

You're a hard sell. What would you hold people accountable for if they were sincere in their reasons while wronging someone? To judge Maharaji by his intent and Jim by his emotional expressions is a bit contradictory, don't you think?

One is being honest and you hear the volume instead of the words - You're turned off. The other is deceitful and you see into his heart - You're touched. You appear to be deaf to content and blind to actions in both cases.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:44:17 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: I'm sorry:Jim,Rick,Selena
Message:
You have given me a lot to think about. I have never dealt well with people who yell or abuse or attack. I do not feel good at all, in fact I feel sick, when confronted with people who in my physical space show intense anger. I have grown into a peace-seeker and peacemaker as a result of many painful early experiences around people who expressed themselves that way and I choose to believe that all people would benefit from learning to disagree without aggression.

I have seldom felt great anger either, even when everyone else thinks I should. I was raped by my brother in a car in the coast range with my little boy, 3 years old in the back seat. I was 21, and it was shortly after I received knowledge. My brother was in his own kind of pain and I believe he was very sick, mentally, perhaps sociopathic(no conscience). I did not heal from that betrayal for many years. I had deeply loved him as a child. The experience made me turn all the more to my inner world and at the time to Maharaji. What do you hold a sick person accountable for and how? If they don't know they have done anything wrong, is it right to punish them? I chose to turn away and walk. If you get burned in any way by a relationship, is revenge helpful? I have forgiven my brother for the sake of my own healing. It was the only method that worked after 25 years of either burying or reliving and rehearsing the pain but it didn't work very fast.

That is my experience and I could not ever claim to know if someone else's pain is better healed by expressing anger. To me anger felt or expressed is hell. If it brings release to others than I am sorry to misunderstand their needs. Perhaps us humans are much more different from eachother than I assumed. I will be more careful about condemning things that might be another's road to health.
Thankyou, Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 03:10:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Carol
Subject: I'm sorry:Jim,Rick,Selena
Message:
Dear Carol - I know the above message was not addressed to me, but you have mentioned your rape by your brother another time on here and I just wanted to say that I empathize with how awful that must have been, and how far you must have come to be able to recover from that and be the loving and empathetic person that you are now. I truly believe that rape is an act of violence rather than sexual desire, and I hope that people expressing anger on the forum does not bring that experience7 up for you. If you have been able to deal with it without expressing anger, that is good for you. I personally have not been able to deal with similar (though not as traumatic) experiences without going through anger BEFORE I was able to forgive the person.

I do think that it's very important for people on the forum to be able to express anger towards Maharaji, or even toward premies who are judgemental to them. I hope that you can accept that. I also feel that it's important for people to move beyond their anger towards Maharaji. I really believe that as long as one feels a strong emotion towards someone else, be it love or hate, that one is is still attached and tied to that person. But it IS important, in my opinion, to feel AND express whatever anger you may have first. Then you can get 'neutral' on the person, which in my opinion, is the way to be.

Carol, I also want to say that I am really sorry that you were raped. What a horrible experience and what a betrayal of trust! I am assuming that you have talked to someone about this, and that you feel OK about it now. (If not, please let someone know.)

Take care, Carol -
Katie
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 05:52:31 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Carol
Message:
Carol I also wish to express thanks for sharing your experience here. I too read it previously and was moved but didn't reply to you at the time.
You are very courageous for sharing here your true life history.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 10:59:04 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Carol
Subject: Passive Premies
Message:
I've read your account here before, but have a very small cache buffer in my personal memory at times. So I forget stuff, and it often takes me a while to figure out who is who here.

When I was growing up I was the one in our family who rolled over and wagged my tail. It kept the peace. My older sister has a pretty good life after demanding that the folks stay in a bad marriage not only long enough to put her through 4 years of college, but also to pay for her wedding to her college boyfriend. Mom had moved out during my sister's college years, but moved back into the house for the wedding - so that things would look right to the wedding guests. My younger brother got the things he wanted while growing up, and was able to participate in whatever he chose. Both are doing well materially in life, and neither was interested in the Lord Of The Universe.

I was always skinny as a kid (still am) and learned to detect growing violence in the air before anyone else could. I made my exit when I sensed it. The folks used to get drunk and battle at high volume. Christmas was a celebration of passing out presents, and then passing out.

I never got angry about it - or about anything else. I viewed myself as somehow above anger. When I hit my mid-teens, I got stoned and stayed that way until I was in my 30's. During that time I rolled over and wagged my tail for anyone who could put me in a position where I was safe from what I didn't want to feel. I was in a bad marriage myself for 7 years and would have remained if my ex hadn't chosen someone who would stand up to her instead.

None were better at creating a safe and peaceful environment than the premies serving the Lord Of The Universe. What a peace-loving group! All smiles! Maharaji wanted something? He'd tell his peaceful devotees and they would sell their lungs to buy it for him, quit their jobs to build it, and turn their backs on their families to show him their loving devotion.

In my 30's I started driving a cab - and also quit drinking and using drugs at the same time. The combination was explosive. I found inside myself the ability to absolutely RAGE at stupid people, and driving the cab brought them into my life one after another. It took a long time to learn to control my anger. I threw old ladies out on the street in the middle of nowhere!!

I do better now that I don't go through life with a loving smile on my face and a target painted on my heart. There is something about passive people that just attracts violence and/or self-denegrating experiences into their lives - 'Why Bad Things REALLY Happen To Good People'. Why 6 million Jews would line up and jam themselves into gas chambers to keep from causing their Nazi guards any inconvenience. Why people line up to kiss Maharaji's feet to show their adoration to someone who doesn't even know their name. Why old ladies demand that cab drivers risk their license, and other people's lives, by speeding to the foot doctor. Why children grow up without asking for anything, or learning how to acquire it. Why brothers rape sisters.

They are passive targets, and that's what targets are for. They can't really expect better in life with a bulls-eye painted on them. People surrounding them know they wear it, and take full advantage of it.

You wrote:
That is my experience and I could not ever claim to know if someone else's pain is better healed by expressing anger. To me anger felt or expressed is hell.

I have to ask: What is un-felt and un-expressed anger to you? You say you could not ever know if feeling pain can help heal!!! Why is that? What rule do you enforce on yourself that prevents you from experiencing and then controlling a human emotion?

Feeling anger doesn't mean that you have to climb a tower with a rifle. But I was in my 30's before I felt it. My ability to control and direct anger appropriately to the situation was absolutely nil when I first started to feel it. Children should be allowed to express it and learn to control it as they grow. When we grow without that ability, we either learn to suppress it or allow it to govern our actions.

When you're not directly invoved in a confrontation, you choose the side of the victim - Annie in the Jim/Annie exchange. When you are challenged directly, you back down. You could have told me: Piss off, Brian!! Nobody asked you!!, but instead you saw my side and abandoned yours.

When people get into my cab now and start in on how I should drive/live-my-life, I don't immediately jump down their throat since I've been wrong before. But I now know that I will stick up for myself, and that's an important thing to know about myself. What good is a friend who will never take my side - even when I'm wrong?

Those who can choose when to express anger have complete control over those who can only choose to not express it. And people like Annie and Marolyn who don't allow themselves to feel their own emotions will always be ruled by someone like Maharaji - who is VERY good at expressing his own wants and feelings!
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 12:55:47 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Passive Premies
Message:
Dear Brian,

Fantastic post, bro
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 14:18:03 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Brian, Carol, all
Subject: Passive Premies
Message:
Brian, that was the real amazing post on this thread.
Thank you for clearing something up for me. I was feeling
kind of confused as to why Carol's posts were bothering
me so much last night. Now I see a kind of double thing
going on with me. I used to be the victim. Now I am
the one who is raging. and, it's hard to look at others
who are walking around either wearing the target or defendign whose who do.. i said once here 'It's always easier
to feel like the victim than to feel like the bad guy'
But you said it *soo* much better. I can certainly see
how you have been growing. Thank you yet again.
Carol, I hope you are ok today. Many of us had bad bad
bad experiences. Someday I may be able to be as open if I feel I need to, and tell my stories. But, I think for now
I will continue processing my way. Take care.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:23:23 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Passive Jews
Message:
Why 6 million Jews would line up and jam themselves into gas chambers to keep from causing their Nazi guards any inconvenience.

Brian,

I agree with what you said with one major exception and you know what it is. I think your example above is shockingly unfair. What could / should the jews have done? Risen up with forks and knices against Hitler's fantastic, modern war machine? Really? What would that have accomplished?
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:44:23 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jim
Subject: Passive Jews
Message:
At the historical point I mentioned (already at the camps) it probably would have been useless to rise up - Treblinka aside. But the situation only came about (as far as that particular group is concerned) because they were a traditionally passive group that was picked and promoted as the targeted 'evil' that plagued the world (in the Nazi viewpoint). Granted, the Nazi's would probably have targeted another group had European Jews been more willing to react violently to violence, but whatever group targeted would have been a passive one.

Being Jewish no longer is equated with being passive. Israel has shown a willingness to strike quickly and decisively when viewing a threat. And aggressors now look elsewhere to find a more willing target. Contrast Israel's handling of the Iraqi's nuclear reactor with Iraq's aggression against a weak neighbor (Kuwait) after failing to handle one that wasn't so passive (Iran).
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:59:46 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Passive Jews
Message:
Brian,

I'm not sure being jewish was ever associated with passivity as such. In terms of business and culture we know that, if anything, they've been tagged aggressive for centuries. And. of course, the Israelities were the only part of the Roman empire to ever rebel until the empire's decline. But, in Europe, never having a land base of their own, the jews were always civilians dependent on various host regimes for law and order. Off course they were more thqan a little disappointed now and again but agian, what could they have done? They had no military of their own, no nothing along those lines.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 12:33:36 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Passive Jews -- Brian
Message:
Brian,

I appreciated your post and the fact that you shared so much about your life. Thanks for that. And I don't disagree about the problems of being passive, as well as how BM prays on that tendency and, in fact, most of what he does encourages such passivity, infantilism, really, among the people who follow him.

But, about the Jews. This is a subject that I get kind of emotional about, just because of the people I have known in my life. I think it's historically innacurate, although a popular myth, to say that the Jews were 'passive' and that caused or contributed to the holocaust. I think that's blaming the victim. If you visit the Holocaust Museum in Washington, you can see much of this documented. For example:

1. Over 100,000 of the less than 1,000,000 jews in Germany emigrated after Kristalnacht. Hundreds of thousands more wanted to emigrate, but guess what? Countries like the US refused to take them. Yes, the good old USA had a State Department filled with anti-semites and hence thousands of 'non-passive' people who were trying to save themselves weren't given the opportunity. Britain and Canada behaved a little better, and Switzerland, where thousands of jews fled, had a deal with the Nazi's to return jews who made it there back to the Germans to almost certain death. And now we are finding they also lined their pockets with the money those people left behind. Thousands more went to France and Poland, but the Germans were soon there. Some jews got some family members out, but weren't able to get out themselves, due to strict immigration 'quotas.'

2. And then there is that famous story about the 1000 or so jews who got a ship and escaped Germany in the late 30s. They were refused entry into the US, despite US intelligence being aware of what Germany was doing to the Jews, and they tried to get into Cuba, but under US State Department pressure, the Cubans refused. They eventually returned to Europe and 90% of them died in concentration camps. These people were not passive, they just weren't given a chance.

2. Ordinary Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto, with pitiful weapons and almost zero outside support, held off an entire German army, with the most modern weapons for almost two months when the Germans were trying to empty out the ghetto into the camps. Not exactly 'passive.'

3. Many jews went underground the joined the underground partisan armies in various countries, notably Poland and Czechoslovakia.

4. In the very few countries were there was some wide-spread support from the non-jewish population, like in Denmark, most of the jews saved themselves. In Denmark, fewer than 500 jews were taken by the Nazis and all the rest, including Victor Borge, escaped to Sweden with the help of the Danish population. The Danish jews were fairly integrated into the population and anti-semitism was almost unknown in Denmark. The Danish jews were not 'passive,' and likely Jews in other countries weren't either, but when you have both the Germans and your neighbors after you, what can you do? Commit suicide? Many did, by the way, rather than fall into the hands of the SS. I don't know if that's a passive act or not, I tend to think not.

You know, maybe this IS a story about being 'passive', but it's a story about how 'passive' the people and governments of various countries were in failing to give persecuted people a chance. For every Oscar Shindler, and Raoul Wallenberg, there were millions of people who stood by, 'passively,' and watched the Nazis exterminate their neighbors. So really, Brian, who really WAS passive in this situation, the jews or the people who stood by and watched, or pretended not to see?

For a great book on this subject, I suggest 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' about the German population's complicity with the 'final solution.'
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:42:21 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: JW
Subject: Passive Jews
Message:
I probably could have left out the reference to the European Jews in my original post and still been able to illustrate my point - that passive behavior invites aggressive behavior.

And I've held off responding since I was hoping not to evolve this thread away from what I was talking about. But I'll make a last response to what both you and Jim said about European Jews not being passive.

Passive behavior is learned as we grow. In some households there are both aggressive and passive children, depending on how the family is structured and governed. In societies, the behavior is learned the same way but the society can only be considered passive or aggressive with respect to OTHER societies.

European Jews were a separate society that existed within bounded countries all over Europe. They got there (and evolved as passive with respect to the general societies in the host countries) through centuries of immigration into more hospitable countries after emigrating out of more hostile countries.

That the German Jews attempted to emigrate yet again from a suddenly hostile Germany doesn't indicate that they were not passive at all. The Warsaw Jews stood up to the Germans only after they had watched their numbers dwindle rapidly even as the German army was falling back away from the onrushing Soviet army. And you have to remember that they were under the belief that the Soviets would continue their advance into Poland and assist in their efforts. But Stalin halted his army and let the Germans wipe out all resistance before continuing his offensive.

The term standing your ground derives directly from the idea behind defending your soil. The Jews who emigrated from Israel into Eastern Europe and Russia were a defeated people who had lost their land. That defeatist attitude was handed down to each generation along with the saying 'Next year - Jerusalem'. They were very much aware of what they didn't have - a home to defend - and moved on when faced with hostility from the inhabitants of any land that they settled. They never considered those lands to be theirs.

Jewish society (as opposed to Jewish religious tradition and practice - if you can separate them for a moment) is strongly bound to the idea of Israel. It's only there that they have refused to just move on because it's only possession of the land that they view as theirs (Israel) that allows them the sense of self-worth required to rise up and stand their ground against aggression. Those were and are societal beliefs that govern(ed) societal behavior.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:15:48 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Passive Jews
Message:
You are right, Brian, I don't think the Jews are a good example for passivity. I would drop the subject too, but I think a couple of things need to be clarified.

European Jews were a separate society that existed within bounded countries all over Europe. They got there (and evolved as passive with respect to the general societies in the host countries) through centuries of immigration into more hospitable countries after emigrating out of more hostile countries.

This was true in only some countries, but not others. It depends on the level of anti-semitism. In the low countries, Scandanavia, France and even Germany, the jews were very integrated into the society, highly educated and economically prosperous. Many were actually quite secular. They were not, to any extent, 'passive' in those societies and were active in civil society, the arts and governement. They were, by and large, not 'separate' like they were to some extent in Poland and Russia, where pogroms and discrimination tended to force them together and to be separate. And whether the jews were 'separate' or not, the Germans were equally successful in exterminating them, so I don't think there is a cause and effect relationship there anyway.

That the German Jews attempted to emigrate yet again from a suddenly hostile Germany doesn't indicate that they were not passive at all.

I can't see how you can believe that emigration is a 'passive' act. It takes a lot of courage and conviction to leave your country, your home, businesses, etc. and start all over again somewhere else. Again it might have been 'passive' to do nothing, emigration, especially under those circumstances, was hardly 'passive.' I don't know how you can even say that. It was an 'active' action that saved lives. Nothing passive about it.

The Warsaw Jews stood up to the Germans only after they had watched their numbers dwindle rapidly even as the German army was falling back away from the onrushing Soviet army.And you have to remember that they were under the belief that the Soviets would continue their advance into Poland and assist in their efforts. But Stalin halted his army and let the Germans wipe out all resistance before continuing his offensive.

Well, I completely disagree and contend that the uprising was the antithesis of passivity, on it's face. It would have been 'passive' perhaps, to have done nothing, and considering the odds, I can see how one might think that was a sensible thing to do.

You are also historically inaccurate here, Brain, you are talking about two different events that happened at different times. The Soviets were not about to take Warsaw when the Warsaw ghetto was destroyed. The jews never expected Soviet help. There was a time later, when the Soviets were near Warsaw and the Polish resistence, in anticipation of their arrival, staged an uprising to expell the Germans. It has been widely believed that Stalin halted the advance so that the resistence forces would be destroyed, thus helping the establishment of Soviet occupation and the Polish Communist Party. But that had nothing to do with the Warsaw Ghetto.

The Jews who emigrated from Israel into Eastern Europe and Russia were a defeated people who had lost their land. They were very much aware of what they didn't have - a home to defend - and moved on when faced with hostility from the inhabitants of any land that they settled. They never considered those lands to be theirs.

I'm not quite sure what you are talking about here. The Jews had been in Europe for centuries and you are just plain wrong, and I don't know where you got this idea, but many jews considered themselves just as, for example, German, Dutch, French, Italian, as anyone else. This stranger-in-a-strange-land idea is largely a myth. True, when porgoms happened in Russia and Poland, jews might have wanted to emigrate and have a homeland, but that was hardly a universal phenomenon. On what do you base your last statement, that jews didn't consider those lands to be theirs? I think millions of jews would disagree with you.

Jewish society (as opposed to Jewish religious tradition and practice - if you can separate them for a moment) is strongly bound to the idea of Israel.

To the extent this is true TODAY, this is largely a pheonomenon CAUSED by WWII, and not pre-existing it. Zionism was opposed, even after the war, by many Jews, and prior to the war, it was a minority viewpoint.

But the idea of a homeland is kind of irrelevent as to whether your blanket statement that the jews were all just passive to the onslaught of Nazi persecution. I still think that's a very inaccurate statement, although I realize it is a widespread myth.

Again it might have been 'passive' to do nothing, emigration, especially under those circumstances, was hardly 'passive' and I still contend that it wasn't the jews that were passive, it was the rest of the population in those countries who did nothing to stop or prevent extermination of innocent people. What about that Brian, what about that 'passivity?'
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:52:20 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Passive Jews
Message:
Jim,

Joe, How come you know so much jewish history? You're not a yid yourself, are you?

Brian, I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as either of you, I think, about WWII (although I'm smart enough to laugh at both you guys for talking about the 'Soviets'). But I think your inital point had more to do with the narrow question of jews and gas chambers. Or was it the slightly larger question of jews and concentration camps? Why did they go?

Considering the second question first, why did the jews acquiesce and get on the trains, I think you'd have to say that was a rational choice at the time. They weren't certain what fte awaited them and rebelling would have cost them instant death, not just for themselves but for their loved ones. Who would have done differently? MAYBE a few million Mujahadeen, IF they had their weapons. No weapons, no point. They got you.

As for why the jews lined up for the gas chambers once they knew the score, oh shit, is that evidence of 'passivity' or just bleak, last minute accpetance of one's fate? Is a condemned prisoner 'passive' jsut becuase he doesn't take a run at the warden? I don't think so.

I want to go back to your original post for the point you were making. You said:

I do better now that I don't go through life with a loving smile on my face and a target painted on my heart. There is something about passive people that just attracts violence and/or self-denegrating experiences into their lives - 'Why Bad Things REALLY Happen To Good People'. Why 6 million Jews would line up and jam themselves into gas chambers to keep from causing their Nazi guards any inconvenience. Why people line up to kiss Maharaji's feet to show their adoration to someone who doesn't even know their name. Why old ladies demand that cab drivers risk their license, and other people's lives, by speeding to the foot doctor. Why children grow up without asking for anything, or learning how to acquire it. Why brothers rape sisters.

They are passive targets, and that's what targets are for. They can't really expect better in life with a bulls-eye painted on them. People surrounding them know they wear it, and take full advantage of it.


Personally, I think you're mixing together a bunch of phenomena, only some of which helps the point you're making which is, I think, extremely valid, by the way, that it sucks to be a pushover.

Still, though, I wonder how you find parallels in several of your examples. The sister gets raped by force, let's say. Where's the passivity? The old lady just strikes me as selfish. Passive? I don't see it. The premies ... well, they're passive in the sense thta they accept the guru on his own terms. They came with curiosity, he told them to stifle it, and they did just that. That's lame as hell but I'd only call it passive to the extent that they wanted to do otherwise and wouldn't speak up for themselves. The jews? We already talked about that.

The premies's 'passivity' is a strange bird altogether. I don't equate it with general wimpiness, it's more like a self-assumed wimpiness in the name of some larger agenda. As if the guru (with full Hindu tradition to bakc him up) persuades the follower to cultivate passivity (i.e. obsequiousness, avoidance of all confrontation or questioning) as a goal in itself. It's bizarre how aggressively some of us sought passivity in our devotional heyday. Strange shit.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 14:33:22 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Passive Jews
Message:
Jim,

No, I'm not Jewish. I've just always had an interest in modern European history especially WWII and the cold war. What's so funny about the Soviets? They really did exist, at least on paper, at the time you know. The Red Army wasn't just Russian. I also had a great Aunt in Skokie, Illinois and used to visit her in the Summers. Skokie used to have the largest population of holocaust survivors in the world. Anyway, lots of connections made there at a young age.

I think in Brian's example, it was the cab driver that was passive, not the old lady. She was being a bitch, the driver had the choice of being passive or not.

I agree also with the point that people should stand up for themselves, but I get nervous when I hear sweeping statements that 'passive people' bring injury onto themselves. I think it's a lot more complicated than that. Sometimes people just can't defend themselves, for whatever reason. I wouldn't consider a child who is abused by his parent as passive, for example, nor that the child's passivity contributed to the abuse.

I think with premies the passivity comes from, not only accepting BM on his own terms, but also from a failure to probe the underpinings of BM's debilitating ideology. And by never questioning it.

That's an ideology that says he has all the answers and you have none. I think the passivity is more like the kind of passivity that comes from drugs. You sometimes like, and are addicted to, the feeling that comes from it and therefore you go no further. With premies, they sometimes like, and might be addicted to, the 'group high' around BM and that temporary feeling of relief they get by attributing some sort of protection and meaning from BM in their lives.

It's regressive, but it feels good for awhile to feel like a child being taken care of. And because there is a nice experience, the premie accepts passively without question, even to the point of overlooking contradictions and behaviors of BM that make no sense, or are repugnant. I also think there is an element of fear among premies that also breeds a kind of passivity.

I recall listening to BM's satsang in a way that was very passive in the sense that I gave none of my own input to it. I suppose you can pursue passivity in an agressive fashion, like when many of us fervently dedicated ourselves, but the result, at least in the area of independent thought, could still be passivity.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:25:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: Passive Jews
Message:
Joe,

If there were Soviets then then I stand corrected and hereby wipe the smirk off my face. Yes, I realized what Brian must have meant in his cab-driver example as soon as I hit 'submit'.

I agree with the rest of your post too. You know, it's not as if passivity was an essential characteristic for anyone wanting to be a premie. It's just that the cult draws people into that mode. We were mustard gassed with passivity (Oh, sorry, I happen to know everything there is to know about the FIRST World War) and all sorts of people who stuck around for more than a few minutes got smoked.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:11:50 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: To Brian and Katie & all
Message:
Brian,
I think that unexpressed anger or pain turns inward to depression and physical ailments, and I have had both. I realized last night that I have not totally healed from my past, although I have transformed a great deal of my pain into compassion for others. I feel as though I shed another skin, and I thank you all for your honest responses.

I had not dealt with the rape in relation to what was happening witn premies and BM and how it effected my world view and spiritual beliefs at that time or in the present. I did not expect that by entering into discussion on how people 'should' communicate that I would make the discoveries I have. My personal faith has been strenghthened by my willingness to discuss difficult subjects.

I discovered when I began using a computer for writing that when I did a grammar check of my writing, the computer 'told' me I was using a passive voice about 80% of the time! I have since worked to change my writing to be more actice or direct, but sometimes the passive voice is the one which fits the meaning I want to convey!

The only time I ever felt rage over what happened to me(-oops passive voice), I mean over my brother raping me was in a dream I had during a time when I was in group therapy session. I dreamt that he got out of a big semi-truck (he became a trucker) and walked up to me like nothing was wrong (when confronted about it,indirectly through our sister, in 1989 when I began private therapy, he denied having done it and called it a delusion from my use of LSD.) In a child-size body I jumped or climbed up him suddenly and bit his throat out. That's it, I could only express the anger subconsciously. It felt good when it happened but surprised me and it is not something I can create in myself so that I can experience it again.

Don't worry about me, I am a survivor who has transmuted a lot of the pain of the past into something good, I think. My work just is not finished. Being a peace-maker is an important role to play in many situations and I seem to have a natural inclination to it. I'm still trying to find more places where I can share my particular abilities. I try to find personal meaning in the things I experience and find common ground with the people I meet. I am willing to see another's point of view and to validate their right to have it, out of respect for them and the meaning they have given their own experiences.I don't see it as backing down, just making room! So shut the F up!!(that's a joke!)Really I appreciate being challenged, it makes me *feel* and then change for the better I think.
Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:21:18 (EST)
From: Rick
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I'm sorry:Jim,Rick,Selena
Message:
Carol,
Thank you for explaining your story. I don't really get angry very easily, except with people I trust, and even then, it isn't very intense or intimidating. As CD pointed out, it is much easier to be tough on paper. I was actually kind of indignant and exasperated when I wrote my post, not really angry like I would feel if someone violated me personally.
My little philosophy about anger (cause everyone's got one) is that the reason there's so much objection to anger is because of conditioning. We're conditioned to feel uncomfortable about it but it isn't uncomfortable by nature. I try to feel comfortable about it because I think it's a good thing. It lets people know how I feel and it lets me know how they feel, if they're angry. The last thing I want if someone's angry with me, is to not know about it. I reckon when someone's done being angry, they're done being angry. No reason to rush it, and no reason to drag it out. It isn't better to be not angry, unless of course there's discomfort. That is to say, 'Not that there's anything wrong with it.' Obviously, anger is irritating and who wants that, but if someone did something to piss you off, the alternative is to stuff it, which is really not good.

Thank you for explaining your story, Carol. I wish there was some way I could have helped, although I wouldn't have been much good, because I would've wanted to beat up your brother.
Rick
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:23:18 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Rick
Subject: You may have helped!
Message:
Thanks, Rick,
I lived in a premie house with about 18 adults at the time. I only told one woman because she saw me come in,and she told 2 men in the house who were immediately ready to go beat him up. I was really glad they offered, but, I refused their help. I tryed to talk to the community director of the time later on because I could not make sense of 'it happening to me' as if violence ever really makes sense! Then I just tried to put it out of mind and for a very long time, it seemed to work. I just told myself, I was not my body and this act did not touch who I really was. Anyway, thanks.
Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 12:35:32 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Don't let 'em get to you.
Message:
Hi Carol,

It was fun to see you, too! Hope you can make it to Grays Harbor sometime.

BTW did you read Jude's post 'Angry'?

Carol, the conditioning of years and years of being involved in this cult, as you have, doesn't usually fall away quickly or painlessly.

Sure there's entertainment value in the forum and yes I did get a kick out of Jim's response to Annie. It just struck me as funny, that's all. And I do think it is important to 'counter' this blathering on and on about how great M is.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, may I remind you of one thing? What you experience is YOURS. It comes from YOU not M. What you feel is not something external to you.

And while we're at it, may I express my opinion on a feeling that arises in these group gatherings such as the one recently in Miami? Specifically, 'bliss'.

Bliss is like a drug. It is addictive. And like a drug, it is merely a physiological 'storm in the brain' Nothing more. Like thoughts, feelings, and body sensations, it is ephemeral and fleeting. It has nothing to do with who you really are. It has no value in and of itself.

BTW, who are you?

Warmest regards for your journey into freedom,
Gerry
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 17:28:39 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: BTW, who are you?
Message:
Gerry, I am relying on you and everyone I meet to reflect back to me who I am. I get to decide how I project my self, and I take resonsibility for it. I'm still learning who I am. Thanks for helping me.

Respectfully, Carol
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:56:19 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Annie
Subject: Don't let 'em get to you.
Message:
There they go again.
The gang of 98.
The bullies who really get their big kicks out of
jumping all over poor innocent premies.
Hey, you bunch of hero's......what
would you do to get high if it wasn't for these
crusade-sports of yours?
Anyway, Annie, thankyou for your post and if you
want to tell me more about Miami.
Regards Keith.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 19:01:19 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: electronic bully wimps
Message:
>Wow.These guys act pretty tough,huh?

Exactly.
Easy to do from behind a keyboard.
Pitiful behaviour.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 19:21:55 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: electronic bully wimps
Message:
CD I am breaking my own self-imposed rule of not talking to those who post here in defense of M when they are supposed to be so happy that they have no reason to fear or be concerned about this site, or feel the need to defend someone so perfect.
whew! run-on sentence finished,
I have to ask: WHY do you read this forum and post here? I mean, a real reason with substance, and one different than what I just mentioned in the first paragraph.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 19:33:32 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: electronic bully wimps
Message:
Wow.These guys act pretty tough,huh?

Exactly.
Easy to do from behind a keyboard.
Pitiful behaviour.


Could you explain what this means? My confusion stems from the obvious fact that this is an electronic forum and this is the media we have all chosen to participate in of our own free will (unless of course your under some secret 'agya' or what ever the hell it is to do your duty and 'counter' what is said here).

Otherwise it sounds like some vague, veiled threat, like 'Come here and say that to my face and we'll settle this man-to-man(or woman).

Oh, almost forgot (with apologies to Shri Sant Jimiji) 'I know you are but what am I?'

electronic bully wimps
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 14:52:00 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: comments on electronic abuse
Message:
My response was a reaction to the following statements by Rick:

'You pathetic poser. You pathetic loser. What happened to the real Annie? My God! What happened to you as a child? Were you dropped on your head?'

Yes this is an electronic forum and we are allowed to write what we please.
Jim invited me here in the first place a long time back.
Thats how I found out about the forum before it was this forum.

>(unless of course your under some secret 'agya' or what ever the hell it is to do your duty and 'counter' what is said here).

I don't counter what is said here.
I express my own opinions and relate my own experiences of my own free will.
There are definitely some high correlations happening.

Good day,
CD
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 18:13:22 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: comments on electronic abuse
Message:
(unless of course your under some secret 'agya' or what ever the hell it is to do your duty and 'counter' what is said here).

I don't counter what is said here.
I express my own opinions and relate my own experiences of my own free will.


Thanks for clearing that up. Someone made a statement something to the effect the perhaps you were participating on the forum as M's agent to deal with it. (your name was mentioned specifically)

There are definitely some high correlations happening.

CD, what does this mean?
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 20:37:49 (EST)
From: CD
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: comments on information
Message:
>Someone made a statement something to the effect the perhaps you were participating on the forum as M's agent to deal with it.

There is a lot of misinformation on this forum.
Both intentional and unintentional.
I have observed paranoid statements with no more validity than the paranoia of a stoned person.

Certainly there is also communication of value presented here.

I am not against the forum.
After all I do participate in my own way.
The facts are that I am a decent intelligent person.
I also enjoy a Gibson through a Marshall.

Regards,
CD
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 20:52:05 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: Gibson through a Marshall.
Message:
Hurts my ears already! Just kiddin. I recently put the finishing touches on a Martin-style HD-28 with a pick-up. It was supposed to be my own ax, but now this religious type lady wants to bond with it (her words-no kiddin') Think I'll charge her double.

Beefsteak when I'm hungry
Whiskey when I'm dry
Greenbacks when I'm hard-up
Sweet heaven when I die.

Wish I wrote that.

Regards
Gerry
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:43:00 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Chris through a P.A.
Message:
Gerry and Chris,

I, too, play a Les Paul through a JCM900 with nice Celestion 2 X 12 cab. It's not too loud or too nothing. It purrs and the clean sound is beautiful.

So you're a guitar maker, Gerry? That's really cool. Do you have a web page or anything? If not are you thinking of putting one up? Have you ever given a guitar to Maharaji?

CD, by the way, stands for Chris Dickey. It's a person's name. It's Chris' name.

Chris, would you please answer a very straighforward question? It's this. When you say:

There is a lot of misinformation on this forum.
Both intentional and unintentional.
I have observed paranoid statements with no more validity than the paranoia of a stoned person.

Certainly there is also communication of value presented here.

I am not against the forum.
After all I do participate in my own way.

The facts are that I am a decent intelligent person.


are you communicating the best you can?

Let's assume you're right and, thank God almighty, you're not brain-damaged. Why do you think, after all this time, you have to assure anyone here that you're intelligent? I mean, you don't see anyone else here saying that about themselves, do you? Everyone, from Scott all the way down to JW, has some measure of intelligence, we're all at least average. Everyone knows that. What's going on that makes you feel that you have to assert that?

Oh, I know... it's becuase assholes like me keep saying you sound inane. Is that it? Hmm, let, me think about this.

Okay, I've thought about it. And here, I'm sorry, I did say I had one question but, if you'll just humour me a bit, I've got another: Do you think that your quote above is the way people normally talk to one another? If I visited you in San Diego and asked you where to eat, you wouldn't just say 'there are a number of restaurants, some good and some bad' and just leave it at that, would you? Wouldn't you say, 'you might like X'? And then wouldn't you be prepared for me task why? And wouldn't you then tell me why? And wouldn't we actually talk about it?

Can you see how weird your behaviour is here? You talk about 'participating in your own way'. There again, why would you have to say that? It's like your intelligence comment. We all participate in our own ways. What's your point? What's your way, Chris? Or is part of your way that you can't talk about it?

Now, here's another question (yeah, I know): do you think your style infuriates people? Doesn't say enough to really say anything, skates on the surface, leaves things intentionally vague? See, that's where I get angry. I think you must know how that bugs people and that you just don't care. It's like you don't respect minds that turn on Maharaji and you enjoy frustrating us. Isn't that true, Chris? Come on, man, talk fully for a change. You make some daming statements like the one above. Have the common decency to discuss it.

Jim
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:11:33 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Oh, one more thing, Chris
Message:
Chris,

I almost forgot. Here's as good an example as any of the difficulty I have accepting your behaviour here. Take another look at your 'why surtanly' post below. Now, I had asked a really simple question, whether you agreed that authority figures who punish or ignore people who refuse to obey them without question are 'authoritarian'. Remember?

But what was your answer?

Your new crusade is to denounce guitar lessons as a form of finger torture.

Is one hour a day too much?
Don't fall into the pit of endless practice like Garcia.
A guitar is just a piece of wood with a few attachments. No magic there.
Sitars are the work of mindless music maniacs.
Dont pay respect to a music teacher. You banged the strings.
Look, people quit playing, it can't be that enjoyable!
Music has no purpose anyway.
Music is for people who don't want to work.
If Hendrix had a job he would still be alive.
Burn those Beatles records. Don't be fooled by music cults.
Banish feeling, long live logic!


Personally, I have nothing wrong with poetic, metaphorical statements. I get your point here (assuming you have one - you never really know with poetry) and I can enjoy your diatribe to some extent. (Frankly, some parts are better than others but, don't ask me which. We might end up talking about it!).

But really, Chris, is that any way to answer a question? You're just spitting in my face here, aren't you?
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:13:04 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Chris through a P.A.
Message:
Jim,

I just read your last posting to Patty. She said, 'Wow I'd love to go visit him. But I wouldn't say a word though.'

I got a huge laugh out of that and she said I could quote her, and then she said 'do you want another beer...'
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:16:34 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: Cameron on the table
Message:
Gerry,

By all means come. When you do, do you think you can bring your tools? Laurie doesn't think it's legal to castrate 19 year-olds in Canada.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 22:37:49 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Cameron on the table
Message:
Jim,

Sure, I'll bring my tools. I've never done a castration before (although I cut the neck off a Gibson acoustic once) and I'm sorta scared about the 'illegal' part, but hey, I'll consider it 'service'.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 21:52:51 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: comments on informationFYI
Message:
CD,
That was Bruce -a premie- who was suggesting (below) that you and he may have been sent here by Maharaji to take care of the pests on the forum. I asked him about it but didn't get a response. VP
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:23:52 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: CD
Subject: You want to fight, Chris?
Message:
>Wow.These guys act pretty tough, huh?

Exactly.
Easy to do from behind a keyboard.
Pitiful behaviour.


Chris,

Are you saying that you want to fight or something? Well let's do it. But, Chris, there's no point in fighting physically. What's that going to prove? How about fighting in ideas, in words? Let's have a debate.

But, really, Chris, you know you're afraid of that more than anyone. You're afraid of real human contact that challenges your fragile belief system. Like the time you called me. What WAS that about anyway? You call, I'm on the other line and ask you to jsut hold on for a second while I say goodbye to that other person. You say, no, it's okay, you didn't really want to talk, amybe some other time. You'd just called because you 'said you would.'

Are we a little skittish or what?

By the way Chris, what's YOUR opinion about that Guru Papers proposition? Do you think that any authority figure who 'expects to be obeyed without question and either punishes or refuses deal with people who don't [obey him without question] is authoritarian'?

I'm not trying to bully you or anything, Chris. It's a simple question. What do you say? Agree? Disagree? Hm?
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:50:06 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: bftb, it's your turn
Message:
bftb,

Remember the story of the sun and the wind? They have a contest to see who can get this guy to take off his coat. The wind, a real blowhard (oh stop me please!), brags that he's much tougher and can certainly do a better job than the sun. The sun, being tres cool, just smiles. Anyway, as you no doubt recall, the wind tries his damndest but, guess what? The harder he blows the more the guy just wraps the coat around himself. Then it's the sun's turn. He just shines for a bit, warms the guy up and, voila, the coat comes off. Beauty.

Now, would it be fair to say that you think we're falling for the wind fallacy here? Assuming, of course, that we would all love to free Annie of her silly adherence to Maharaji, we're obviously going about it the wrong way, right? The more we ridicule her, the harder she's going to cling to her beliefs, right?

Now, here's my question for you, bftb. Let's say you agree that Maharaji's a creep and Annie's been duped. Just assume that, will you? Really, I don't know what you think but, for argument's sake...

Okay, now, let's say you're right, laughing at Annie doesn't cut it. Alright, big guy, your turn. What are you going to do? What would YOU say to her?

Now, it's no good to just pontificate generally here. I want to hear what you actually would say to Annie that would succeed where ridicule fails. Go ahead. You're in the bleachers. Come down to the field and take a turn at bat. After all, it's easy to criticise. Let's see you do better.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 14:54:10 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: bftb, it's your turn
Message:
Big guy?Big guy? All right uber dude...alpha jim....Mr.H,I'd tell her to take a few hits of B.C's finest,put on a Dayglow Abortions record,kick back,close her eyes and visualize a Maharaji satsang and then see what she thinks.

Really though;I honestly don't know is probably the most accurate answer to your question.There probably isn't one definitive technique to bring about a change,be it a gradual change or a full blown snapping.

I see it like this;all the lurkers out there who may be questioning their involvement with EV (for whatever reasons)are coming from a certain perspective.Now you know as well as I do that if any of these people expressed any doubt to other premies,aspirants,or whoever the 'higher up' may be in their area,and if they mention anything heard on this website they'll be told something along the lines of: 'Oh,those people are just a bunch of bitter souls.They're very angry for personal reasons and are displacing their anger towards Maharaji',or:'The hostile vibes on that website are a perfect example of how your mind will engulf you in negativity if you succumb to doubt',or:'There's something inside of you and all of us that wants so very badly for you not to have this beautiful experience of knowledge.That something would love to grab the helm and deny you your birthright;this knowledge'-so let's say that coming here and seeing hostility(funny,to the point,sarcastic or not)it just confirms to these people that the propoganda they're swallowing is in fact truth,well what good can that do? 'Go ahead;stop practicing.You want to see what'll happen to you?Go have a look at how angry,mean and rude those ex-premies on the internet are.Do they seem happy to you?'

C'mon jim,you know what you're up against.Also,you've got to realize that alot of people are thin skinned and whatever wisdom and valuable knowledge you may be able to impart to these people will not make it to their eardrums the moment you pierce their skin-all they remember at that point is the piercing.You lose effect,and at that point you are only preaching to the converted.Big deal.That'll stroke your ego some and maybe even earn you a fan club but that's not what you want.

Again;I don't know.I really don't.I just know what I think won't work when I see it.

Jim,why do you think that Annie's life would be better off and more deeply enjoyed by her if she 100% left the world of knowledge?What is it about the process of leaving,and the effects thereof that you feel she can most look forward to?
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:49:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: that's all, bftb?
Message:
bftb,

Your last question first -- what makes me think Annie's life would be any better without Maharaji? It might not. Like, I think Christianity's bogus, too, but that doesn't mean I would want to 'deprogram' every 75 year-old nun out there. What would be the point? Their lives are already spent for the most part, on false premises or not.

My main focus, actually, is Maharaji. I think he defrauded me and I'm completely happy to learn about every one who escapes his clutches. I wish them all good luck like I wish you guys and myself but it's a big world out there. The reality is that very few of us may ever approach the heady intoxication we might have had form time to time as premies. Personally, I can live with that. I'd rather live a sad but honest life than a carefully structured false one no matter how much 'joy' I can muster. Some people might feel otherwise. Oh well.

But one thing's clear -- I want to fuck up Maharaji's trip to get back at him for exploiting me.

Now, bftb, you admit that you don't know what you'd say to Annie. So, really, how can you criticize me? You're saying my appraoch won't 'work'. Well it's got to have a better chance than doing nothing. No, I take that back, maybe doing nothing would work better. But I'm just not oriented like that. I like communciation and I like to respond to things that move me. Annie's post moved me.

Does our 'negativity' confirm some premie concepts about negativity and the mind? Of course it does. So what? The only way you could really avoid tripping that defense wire would be to shut the page down entirely. Docile tones of false respect would probably never be enough, plus they'd be fake and certainly wouldn't be any fun.

By the way, why the reference to the Dayglo's? Did I say something about them here?
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 19:13:21 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: that's all, bftb?
Message:
No I can't recall you ever mentioning the Dayglo's before.I do recall you mentioning No means No however.

Now,I think my not knowing what I'd say doesn't automatically mean that I can't criticize what you say.In fact I think that's Bullshit Jim.Are you calling me a hypocrite?Why?I never said that I knew what to say.

Picture this:You and I have a mutual friend named Al.Al bites his fingernails.He bites 'em right down to the flesh, damnit all, and we know that that's not good for our friend.We decide that we've got to help him stop.After all we also used to have this nail biting problem so we can relate.Trouble is we haven't got a clue as to how to get him to stop.We know how we stopped but we're not at all sure that those ways will work with Al. One day we're on our way to see Al.We've arranged to meet him in a park.As we get to the meeting place we see Al sitting on a bench with his back to us.He's clearly munching away on his fingernails.He's oblivious to our creeping presence.You say to me, at the point when we're only a few steps from Al,that you've got an idea.What I ask....and then boom,THWACK!you smack him on the back of his head. Needless to say this doesn't fix the problem.I quickly tell you that I think that was a dumb idea.You say 'Oh really?So Mr.Bigshot;what's your suggestion?Oh,you don't know?well what right do you have to call what I did dumb?'

I also made an assumptive mistake that you have thankfully cleared up for me.I assumed that a primary motivation of your involvement here was to free others from the shackles that you were once bound by.I now understand that you're main motivation for being here is revenge against your captor,and if in the process of you exacting your revenge another victim is freed:then so be it.That's fine by you.In fact you like very much when others are liberated,it's just not your job.Hey,I can understand that because it's not my job either.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 20:47:29 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: THWACK!
Message:
Hi bftb,

How funny that you'd mention the Daglo's. Our drummer's from that band.

I've only got a second here. Let me say this: THWACK! No, seriously, I think your example's a bit straw man-ish, isn't it? Ridiculing a premie is not as unreasonable as smacking some guy, is it? Hell, what do I know? Maybe it is. But I've got to run. Maybe Annie will let us all know what works best. Annie?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 10:59:28 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: THWACK!
Message:
Straw-man'ish?Not at all jim.I'm right and you're wrong.End of story.(actually this was pretend flame bait,I realize this horse is dead.....but I'm still right and you're still wrong)

No it's not 'funny'-I'm psychic and I occasionally drop little clues to pave the way for the grand admission of my omnipotent consciousness.You know,same as the way my alien bretheren are paving the way for their public entrance with sightings/encounters here and there.Or just like the way M reveals his divinity to you slowly.Or....All right are you close to vomiting yet?

Seriously though;what's the name of your band and do you have any records out,or is it just a 'for fun' thing?

Oh yeah,by the way....how are your drummers teeth now?Feeling any better?
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 14:44:16 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: THWACK!
Message:
bftb,

You now that's not an acronym, don't you? I hope you didn't order an acronym because that's defintely not what you got. You have to be able to pronouce an acronym. My freinds and I have spent the better part of this weekend -- ruined it actually -- trying to pronounce your name. One guy's still working on it (he's eatern european) but I think he's really wasting his time. Frankly, I've given up.

Now, if you want to get a fully pronounceable acronym I know a place where they'll do the whole mock-up and everything no spec and you only pay if you actually use the thing. Let me know (they're not on the net for some reason).

You are wrong, that you're right but, as that would be a contradiction, if I'm right, it must be that you're simply wrong. Know what I mean?

The band's the X-Flies, still unrecorded (hopefully, not for long) and our aspirations fluctuate. Really, let's face it, I'm old for that game. Sigh... Wyhat's left? Fun, I guess.

Brain (Bonehead) isn't our drummer, Murray (Cretin) the original and renewed front-man is.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 02:36:54 (EST)
From: Mickey the Producer
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Jim
Subject: THWACK!
Message:
Hey boyo,
I use to have my own indie labels and have done some production in my time. I'd love to hear some of your stuff. However, I have one rule when producing: I make all final decisions. Can't see you agreeing to that! :-) I'll make a tape of my stuff for you sometime if your interested.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 10:49:54 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Mickey the Producer
Subject: THWACK!(tm)
Message:
Go for it.And let me say that I for one think that THWACK!(tm) would make a great name for a band,album,or song title.Heck, it would be great even as part of a lyric-or the only lyric in a good 30 second rager.

THWACK!(tm) is good.

Of course THWACK!(tm) is mine and I'm highly litigious so you WILL have to pay me but hey;it'll be worth it.

So don't consider forgetting me when the x-files(terrible name jim,you must change that as I'm embarrassed for you) become the worlds first geriatric punkers with a hit(Edith Massey doesn't count,she never had a hit)

P.S. to jim-Look Heller;I don't know who you think you are but now you've stooped to an all time low:Making fun of my parents!BFTB is a fine name and I'm very grateful to them for such a gift.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 11:33:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: THWACK!(tm)
Message:
dear bftb,
I love you but you are either slightly dyslexic or used to reading Jim's inverted letter posts. I am saying this before Jim gets a chance: his band is the X-FLIES. (I don't know if this is a better name or not, but at least it's more original.) I do like THWACK!(tm).

Plus, what are you talking about: geriatric?! I only consider myself middle-aged.

Katie
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:41:30 (EST)
From: bftb
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: THWACK!(tm)
Message:
Geriatric for punk.Like I should talk.Never too old too rock and roll-Hello Cleveland!Nerds are us.

Not really dyslexic but somewhat silly.X-flies is all right I guess.THWACK!(tm) is infinitely better and he knows it.Far more subtle too.Glad you like it.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:25:35 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: bftb
Subject: THWACK!(tm)
Message:
bftb,

Yes, you would think Thwack(tm)is a great name. Surpirsed your parents didn't come up with it first. No, the X-Flies has roots -- we used to be the Flies.

As for age, the entire prospect is so disgustingly ugly I won't talk about it for more than a minute. All I know is that I ain't old yet but in about 50 years I probably will be.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 12:20:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mickey the Producer
Subject: But this is secular music
Message:
Mickey, Yes, we're taking forever to record. On the other hand we record everything, every practise, every jam. Sometimes on ADATS at my place or boom box at Laurie's.

We're playing Panama City ina few weeks. A big international shipping magnate's kid is getting married. It's also his bar mitzvah so it should be a lot of fun. If, by chance, you're in Panama then why not stop by for a drink? You look jewish, don't you? Most people do.

See, I don't really have anything to send out right now. We've got about 25 to 30 tunes all of which are wonderful but they're just kind of here and there. On the other hand, we will do a CD soon. At least I want to.

Sure, I'd love to hear a tape of your music or a CD if you have one.

Jim Heller
7 - 547 Herald Street
Victoria, B.C.
Canada V8W 1S5
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 15:39:49 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Jim
Subject: But this is secular music
Message:
Now when exactly will you be in Panama City? I will be in Panama from May 31 - June 20, but I'm not sure when I'll be in Panama City. I will be there for a few days at the start of the week and then they're sending me out God knows where to work in the country, then I'll return to Panama City for a few days before I head back to the States. I would love to come see you, though. Let me know when you'll be there.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 16:14:32 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: Stop kidding Ex's!!!!
Message:
Mickey,

That's it. No more jokes. Not even obvious ones. I forget that the one thing we all have in common is we once beleived that a fat, little kid from India was God. I feel so bad. Katie can you help me with this?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 17:13:56 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jokes about what??
Message:
Sure, Jim, I will help you, but what's the problem here? Michael is really gonna be in Panama, 'THWACK (tm)' is really a better name than the 'Ex-Flies', and we are all middle-aged but NOT geriatric (except maybe bftb - I don't know how old he is).
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 19:10:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Oh I get it
Message:
I finally got it, Jim. Shame on you, messing with our heads like that! I feel like a total idiot.

Yeah, you've got to stop. I am a gullible person, so it's easy to fool me, but it's really hard for ANYONE to tell when someone is lying (I mean kidding) on the Internet.
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 21:11:30 (EST)
From: Mickey the Red-faced
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Jim
Subject: Stop kidding Ex's!!!!
Message:
Sheesh, I gotta read these things better! His wedding AND Bar Mitzvah; I guess that day he WOULD become a man!
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:16:54 (EST)
From: Katie the gullible
Email: None
To: Mickey the Red-faced
Subject: Stop kidding Ex's!!!!
Message:
Hey Mickey - I didn't even get the 'wedding and bar mitzvah' part until I read YOUR post! Now who is stupider? I tend to read too quickly, and you just CANNOT do that with Jim's posts. (He still should be ashamed, IMHO!)

Seriously, I was going to ask you when you were going to Panama, and now I don't have to ask, so Jim did me a favor. Are you done with school yet?
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 22:37:35 (EST)
From: Mickey the Student
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie the gullible
Subject: Stop kidding Ex's!!!!
Message:
Hi Katie,
I am almost finished. I turned in a 25 page paper on 'The Shepherd of Hermas' yesterday and had a final today (it was a breeze) and I have one last paper to write, due Friday, but I'll finish it tomorrow (a little 10 pager). Then, I'm the M.C. at the Commencement on Friday and we party all weekend (well, I gotta write a sermon Saturday night and do that priest thang Sunday). Then one week of doing nothing. Think I'll make you some tapes.
Regards,
Michael
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:05:19 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Mickey the Student
Subject: Stop kidding Ex's!!!!
Message:
Hi Michael - I should probably know this - but I assume you are graduating? No more school (unless you decide to go for the terminal degree - I love that phrase)?

Congratulations!

(A week of doing nothing sound great about now!)
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Date: Tues, May 19, 1998 at 23:10:21 (EST)
From: Mickey the Whatever
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Katie
Subject: Stop kidding Ex's!!!!
Message:
No, I'm not graduating; I finish up next year. This being a seminary, our commencement ceremony includes a Eucharist. I am the M.C.; I won't be doing stand-up, it means that I make sure the church service goes correctly and everyone is in the correct place. You know how complicated these Episcopalian services can be. My daughter will be the Thurifer, swinging the incense pot!

PS I forgot to mention in my post about the baptism last week that the two priests assisting me are women. It was a cool baptism!
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:59:15 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Annie Sosman
Subject: Amazed? Me too!
Message:
Wow - It's Marolyns letter all over again. I too am amazed but what I am amazed at is the fact that you posted that here. I too have to believe it's all in fun, right? Tell me that's what it is OK? If not, well, then Annie, you have just validated all my doubts and everything I have been processing for the last 5 months. Thanks!! Thanks either way, it was a good joke, if it was a joke and if not, it was a good lesson. Lesson learned.
ps to Jim, -
how the hell do you write like that? I am, or want to think I am, a writer, and I can't do that. I am jealous.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:54:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Thanks Selena
Message:
We partied and played music til really late last night. Then, as alcohol always screws up my sleep, I awoke after just a few hours and stumbled into my office, logged on and read Annie's post. I was in just that right state of mind to channel gibberish.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:36:39 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Thanks Selena
Message:
Makes me want to drink brandy! I always liked
Hunter Thompson too and from what I remember of him
in Aspen, he was quite the partier.
I am suprised he survived long enuf for them
to make Fear and Loathing. I wonder if it will be any
good?
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 20:21:17 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Annie Sosman
Subject: Amazed
Message:
1) Is Maharaji God?

2) What about the question in the thread below about Maharaji's command NOT to meditate. A cause of great confusion.

3) Would the people I saw on the beach today in Hastings have the same appreciation for Maharaji or is Maharaji only appreciated by a select few?

4) If you never saw or heard of Maharaji again, would there be any divine experience in your life?

Until some premie begins to take such questions as these seriously and condescent to actually answer them, then in my opinion, the premies posts here are a waste of cyber space and of zero value.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:03:23 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net.au
To: Annie Sosman
Subject: To Annie
Message:
Dear Annie,

A wonderfull expression of what you know and experience to be true. Thank you.

Its amazing how how some of the expremies here have become so indoctrinated by months of endless negativity that they actually think that your understanding and experience couldn't be genuine!

Its sad really, but they have chosen to buy into it.Take care yourself.

Greetings from Australia.

Bruce
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:13:31 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: To Annie
Message:
Bruce,

May i say that i have been participating in this forum for only three weeks or so and appreciate the straight forwardness and general good humor exhibited here. You've got to admit that Jim's reply was hilarious and the work of someone who is, at least, his own person.

The mistake that premies make (and the cause of a lot grief in their/our lives is attributing their experiences to Maharaji. M encourages this and it causes ultimately pain and suffering. Including for him. The evidence is there. Drinking, relationship problems, his apparent lust for material things, his duplicity etc.

What is so difficult about this that you can't see it?
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:27:18 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: To Annie
Message:
Excuse me Bruce - and I'm not one to get angry very often - but I find your last post offensive in the extreme.

You wrote to Annie (but with a nudge and a wink to the rest of us):

Its amazing how how some of the expremies here have become so indoctrinated by months of endless negativity that they actually think that your understanding and experience couldn't be genuine!

How dare you (a premie) call me and my cyberpals indoctrinated? I used to be indoctrinated - for about nine years, on and off - but I managed to scramble out of that poisonous pit long before I ever found this forum.

Do you really believe that chatting on the web can have such
a profound and insidious effect upon people who have once received Knowledge that they lose all sight and 'understanding' of BM's eternal truths?

If so, I suggest you get the hell out of here sharpish, before the virus gets to you too.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 21:29:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Annie, I'm so sorry
Message:
Annie,

Bruce, here, thinks you're doing just wonderfully. Frankly, that should worry the hell out of you. Here's why --

In a post below, I asked premies to comment on a statement from the Guru Papers (emphasis added):

If an authority not only expects to be obeyed without question, but either
punishes or refuses to deal with those who do not, that authority is
authoritarian.


By the way, I'll ask you too; do you think this statement is true?

Anyway, Bruce replied, not by answering the question (no, I guess that would have been too hard) but by assuming that I was talking about Maharaji of all people and saying that Maharaji has indeed answered those who question him. Here's Bruce:

The notion that m. does not deal with you and some other ex-prems is largely a fallacy of your own making . So many
questions similar to those repeatedly posted here by you and other exprems have been answered either directly by M or through his agents over the years.


So, I'm curious what your opinion is. Do you agree with Bruce? I'd say he's full of shit myself but then, as you know, that's just one man's opinion. Well, anyway, what's yours. Honestly, do you agree with Bruce or not?

Then, the other thing your colleague in Maharajism said was that Maharaji could learn a thing or two in how to handle 'pests' like us from Suharto. Again, here's Bruce:

You're lucky that M. is not a real authoritarian. Try setting up a critical webpage about General Suharto for example.
Now he really knows how to deal with people who are pests.


So I'm just curious what your opinion is about that?

The other thing, Annie, is that I remember that you were often MISERABLE in the ashram. You wre one of the more morose people in the community. Don't you remember? Why are you whitewashing everything? Who are you trying to fool?
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:20:16 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: phoenix@b024.
To: JIm
Subject: answer
Message:
Jim,

You wanted a comment on this

If an authority not only expects to be obeyed without question, but either punishes or refuses to deal with those who do not, that authority is authoritarian.

I would have thought that my answer contained my view of this quote. I'm used to dealing with intelligent people, so I forgot you are a bit dim. Sorry. May I call you DJ, Jim?

A real authoritarian person or organization DOES DEAL VERY DELIBERATELY WITH THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY WITHOUT QUESTION.

Therefore the above statement is bunkem.

Sweetly and good humouredly as always,

Bruce
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:34:18 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: No, Bruce, that's no answer
Message:
I would have thought that my answer contained my view of this quote. I'm used to dealing with intelligent people, so I forgot you are a bit dim. Sorry. May I call you DJ, Jim?

A real authoritarian person or organization DOES DEAL VERY DELIBERATELY WITH THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY WITHOUT QUESTION.

Therefore the above statement is bunkem.


Bruce,

Didn't your mama teach you how to answer questions or something? You're still avoiding answering the question, this time by rejecting it as nonsensical. It's like I asked you if unicorns are hard to shop for and you say you won't answer the question because there are no unicorns.

Here, you're saying that there's no such thing as an authoritarian person or organization that simply stonewalls dissenters. Really Bruce? Are you really saying that?

Okay, tell me this -- if I can come up with an example of an authority figure who does refuse to deal with people who question him, would you then agree to answer the question? You know, I don't want to have to think about this too mcuh for nothing.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:41:36 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Endless questions
Message:
Jim,

Go right ahead, but why do I feel that it wouldn't matter how many questions you got answered you'd still have a zillion more.

Its the mind's job to think up questions. Its endless.

Bruce
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 23:02:39 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Endless questions
Message:
Go right ahead, but why do I feel that it wouldn't matter how many questions you got answered you'd still have a zillion more.

Its the mind's job to think up questions. Its endless.


Yes, Bruce, thanks for the satsang. Okay, just so we're clear, you've agreed that if I can show you a single authority figure who refuses to deal with those who won't serve without question, you'll then do me the honor of saying whether or not you agree with the authors' claim that such people are, as they call them, 'authoritarian'.

Okay. I'm going to think this one over a bit. Anybody else hve any good examples?
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:42:41 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Endless questions
Message:
Due you have an address where I could write to Maharaji and see what response I get? I have written before but it has been a long time. I never got a personal reply. Carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:26:34 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: phoenix@b024.aone.net.au
To: Carol
Subject: To Carol
Message:
Hi Carol, those llamas sound cool.

I can get you an address. Better to send me an Email with an address as I can't see your Email address here and I have some other suggestions for contacting M. besides the normal mail address which I'd rather not post here.

Have to run now, I want to get to the beach!

Kind regards

Bruce
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 02:44:36 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: Access to Maharaji
Message:
Bruce,
Why not post ways to get in touch with M here? Why can't everyone have access to them? Maybe someone else out there wants to write to M? Not me, but someone may be desperate and shouldn't they have access?

VP
Not Jim's secretary
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:25:34 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim:an observation and request
Message:
Jim,
Do you really expect an answer from Annie after your aggressive ans sarcastic response to her post? You come across to me like a lover scorned who wears his wounds like armor and maintains constant vigil lest his heart be touched again. You also come across, if anyone sticks around you long enough here without being either scared away or disgusted, as someone who is very smart as well as smart-mouthed. I feel that you could benefit from more kindness in your life, so I for one feel kindness toward you even as I ask you to fight fair and stop your attacks and name-calling. Let this be a forum where people can speak both from their minds or thoughts and from their hopes and feelings, many refer to as their hearts. We all have common needs as humans. We all get to believe what we choose. If you don't agree with someone, just express what you do believe. I think you'll feel better, and I know I would! People are more willing to really listen to someone they respect, who behaves with respect or simply with decency.
Carol
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:49:41 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I'm with you, Carol
Message:
Carol,

You wrote:

Let this be a forum where people can speak both from their minds or thoughts and from their hopes and feelings, many refer to as their hearts.

I agree. Wholeheartedly.

You also said:

We all get to believe what we choose. If you don't agree with someone, just express what you do believe.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. When you say 'just express what you do believe' do you mean 'don't comment on others' beliefs'? Kind of like 'keep those thoughts to yourself'?

If that's what you mean I'd say you're contradicting your first statement, the one about just letting people say what they honestly feel, the one, as I've mentioned, that I agree with.

You also said:

People are more willing to really listen to someone they respect, who behaves with respect or simply with decency.

Carol, what is this respect thing people keep talking about? Is it a code word or something? If someone does something that impresses me somehow, I respect them for it. If they do something that has the opposite effect, I don't respect them. Is there more to it than that? Really, I'm listening but I'll tell you, I don't think respect exists independent of judgment and judgment, last time I looked, is, well, judgmental.

Annie, whom I know and fondly remember from Ottawa in the mid 70s (we used to sing together!), knows the score. Gerry asked if she was real posting what she did. Well, my guess is that she was and she wasn't. That is, she likes being a little shit-disturber at times,don't you Annie? She was bored, probably, and thought she'd just post some frothy premie goo and see what happens. Go ahead, ask her. Here, I will:

Annie. Annie. You there, Annie? Annie, would you please tell Carol here what kind of reaction you expected?

It's like gumby with his 'accpet Jesus into you life' trip. You think he didn't KNOW he'd get chastised and ridiculed? Of course he did. So why'd he do it? I don't know. Ask him. Why'd Annie do it? I don't know that either. Ask her.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:28:37 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: On respect,Jim
Message:
If you read my post above (OkieDokie Jim) I think you'll understand what I mean by respect. It isn't about beating agreement out of people or building thicker walls of separation. It's about a tone and style of mutually accepting behavior or communication towards another which conveys the message that each persom has intrinsic worth and dignity despite the intensity of disagreement. Yes, comment on beliefs, but don't attack the believer. It is not the same thing as being impressed by someone, as your 'mean' posts are impressive, but impressive of what? I would respect the impression you can make by finding a way to be assertive without being aggressive!

I'm using it here referring to the maintenance of basic rules in which the communication can take place. For example, the second I or my son or husband went from stating facts or opinions and feelings to emotional reactions like swearing or name-calling or cutting and personal slams or even sometimes physical aggression, the communication process of problem-solving and exploration of ideas comes to an end. Sometimes one of us would then need a time-out in which to think or calm down. A counselor, if present, served merely as a mediator to help keep the communication on track and to help us to set up the rules to follow as a family. Hope this helps.
Carol
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 23:31:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Jim:an observation and request
Message:
Carol,
That is NOTHING! You should see Jim when he really gets going... No, seriously, I think that his post was really funny. I about fell out of my chair when I read it. I guess my sense of reading Jim's humor is getting better or his jokes are.

I don't think Annie had a whole lot of respect for us by posting her intense Satsang here. Who cares? How did she earn any respect with that nonsense? I think she should save it for her circle of friends. I would tell that to her face in a very nice way, BTW.

I agree that we all have needs as humans and I don't like to intentionally hurt anyone's feelings myself. But why do you suppose that Annie had to post that here? What did she want to gain, learn? How was that going to help her grow? She obviously has it all worked out. In that case, she shouldn't care what anyone says when they question her beliefs.
VP
Sitting home on a Saturday night 1998
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:52:26 (EST)
From: carol
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Motives?
Message:
Maybe she just wanted to stir Jim or others up. Or maybe she wanted to give satsang, where else can she do it? (Is it true premies that you are not supposed to give satsang or use the internet to talk about knowledge to anyone?? carol
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 01:59:24 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: carol
Subject: Motives?
Message:
Carol,
I think she wanted to say that we are full of it and that she was amazed by the conversations that were taking place here. You are right about the internet thing. Mili was asked to close his web site premie.org by PAM. I don't know the Satsang rule. I don't think it is formal/organized anymore. VP
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 08:35:28 (EST)
From: Richard
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: I'm with Jim on this...
Message:
Dear Carol,
Jim has a fundamentally important point here. If this forum is about debate and if truth is a common aim, then we must expect that the hypotheses we set up will be tested by others, perhaps not so nicely as we might wish.

I have to say that, even though I take a contra view to Jim's on knowledge n' stuff, Annie's post seemed more like an advert for a new age shampoo than an exhortation to follow a spiritual path. If, as I suspect, Annie is an intelligent woman then she would have expected that load of tosh to have attracted a certain amount of sarcasm in return.

If not, then it is about time that she woke up before the gauze covering her eyes enters her mouth and chokes her.

If truth is REALLY what Annie seeks then she has to accept the actuality. Meditating on the word does not make the crap go away.

I now fully expect a withering reply from Jim for daring to support him.

Richard
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 15:19:47 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Richard
Subject: HOW DARE YOU, RICHARD?
Message:
Oh come on. 'New-age shampoo advert' is lovely. Let's face it, Richard, the wheels are turning, you'll be flaming premies with the best of us in a few weeks. (It's a three-month program on average. Depends what your starting weight is)
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Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:31:20 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cyberworld became Real today
Message:
Hi,
I spent about 1 1/2 hrs today talking over coffee with Gerry and his wife, Patty. Two very friendly and decent and interesting people. I expect to see them again. (Sorry,Jim, they came to Portland instead of Victoria!) I'm willing to host a musical (or not) potluck here sometime this summer for all who want to visit.
Carol
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 13:22:01 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Cyberworld became Real today
Message:
Carol,
At the risk of sounding daft, what is a 'musical potluck'? VP
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 14:04:04 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: VP
Subject: Musical Potluck explained
Message:
That's just coming together to share food and music if people are so inclined. Gerry plays and makes guitars and my husband plays recorders and other instruments, my son plays fiddle and I play a little drum or other percussion. Kind of a celebration of life and meeting new and old friends. We have a great place with a large deck and a view of the coast range in the distance and our llamas in the foreground! I like to share it and to make new friends. Carol
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 19:10:19 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Sounds Cool
Message:
Sounds cool! It's a shame you are far away. I'd love to sing and see your Llamas. VP
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Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:06:12 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Sense of Self
Message:
Just had a quick chat with the friend who used to live at the Satyananda ashram - they too believed apparently that their Master had a channel to god which you could connect to (in shorthand terms)

I asked him what it was like leaving the ashram and he said that since the practices were meant to strengthen your sense of (real) self - ie to see through the maya and illusion - then they were meant to make you more self reliant. He happened to leave for personal (relationship) reasons before the hypocrasy of their swami was revealed (not of the master himself)...however he said it didn't really bother him because by that time he could see that no-one is perfect, incuding the swami - because of 'maya' - the World.
Interesting, eh? So in a way he was saying that doing the practices actually strengthened him to not be sucked in to the 'cult'. Of course his Master never said he was god, by the way, but the understanding was that he had the channel.
Just liked that idea about the Sense of Self being the antidote.
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Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:27:58 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Sense of Self
Message:
So let me see if I get this right... your firend says getting sucked into the cult saved him from getting sucked into the cult.

Is that it?
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 06:50:23 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jude and everyone.
Subject: Sense of Self
Message:
Jude I have visited an Indian guru for 16 years , as long as I have known Maharaji and had Knowledge.
I knew him before Maharaji came into my life.....about 8 months
before M.
Unlike the followers of Swamiji(as I refer to him as) and most premies I had a type of equal respect for both these two 'teachers' in my life.
They complimented each other.
My family and myself would visit Swamiji's ashram quite frequently.
We developed a closeness with his family.....his wife and daughter.....and many of the people who visited the ashram.
This gave me a close up view of the daily life of a guru.
For the last few years my family and I would stay at the ashram overnight and sometimes extended periods of time.
When Swamiji gave his spiritual talks(satsangs) his power would often really manifest. His words would strike at the very core of things.....his insights were astounding.....his meditative techniques were also really powerful and sublime, although very different than Knowledge.
But I knew him also as so many other things too.
He loved a drink (brandy) and although I rarely drink alcohol I would really enjoy having a brandy with Swamiji.
He loved telling Indian jokes and stories.
He loved letting go and behaving like a child.
He was naughty.
In his presence I learned about how a person can be multi-faceted.
Sometimes he appeared and behaved very drunk but would then look me in the eyes and I would see he was just so conscious.
He gave the best of himself but also all of himself which included the warts and all bits too.
I loved him because I experienced his love and his care despite the not so pure bits too.
He loved people .
I could tell many special stories spanning the 16 years of knowing him....but what I really want to convey ....is that as with Maharaji, I have learnt that a human being is as M himself expressed , a merger of the finite and the infinite ......the Divine and the very mortal.
All is manifestation of god...of divinity.
Just thought I'd share a little with you.
Regards Keith.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:05:45 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: People Magazine article
Message:
I just heard from Leslie Berestein, the writer from People who's doing an
article on gurus of the seventies (bathing suit edition!). Leslie says that
the magazine's editors have decided to run individual pieces on the various
gurus and to tag them, if possible, to relevant dates. Leslie suggested
that they run a piece to mark the 25th anniversary of Milennium and they
agreed. I turned her on to the video which she's going to get.

She wanted me to convey her thanks to everyone she's talked with so far.
She's going to be in touch further and is interested in whatever more info
we're able to piece together over the next few months.

Maharaji, now you've got a chance to clear your calendar and give a small
interview to Ms. Berestein. Invite her to Gladstones 4 Fish or something.
She's really nice. Can't say what she looks like though.

Jim
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 10:25:00 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: People Magazine article
Message:
Thanks for that post, Jim. I'd better get busy. Brian, I will have the rest of the stuff to you this week. VP
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 21:52:17 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Cults.
Message:
I studied the dictionary definitions for the word 'cult' last night, and was surprised to realise how these definitions differed in content and 'sense/feel' than the connotations we seem to place on this word .
'From the Collins English Dictionary'.
(Bracketed words are mine).
cult: 1) a specific system of religious worship ,especially with reference to its rites and deity.
(I would have thought that all the mainstream religions fall into this catagory.)
2) a sect devoted to the beliefs of a religious or other cult.
( Given the nature of the fragmented and disparate 'sects' within all mainstream religions all denominations can be referred to as 'cults' therefore.)
3) a group having an exclusive ideology and ritual practices centered on sacred symbols, especially one characterized by lack of organizational structure.
( Would this especially be close to describing premiedom ?).
4) intense interest in and devotion to a person, an idea,etc, arousing such devotion.
( definately relevant to Maharaji and premies.)
5)the person, idea, etc, arousing such devotion.
( Maharaji for sure).
6) any popular fashion, craze .
From Latin 'cultus'...cultivation, refinement, from 'colere' meaning 'to till'.

I find it interesting that there is little derogatory suggestiveness in these dictionary definitions.
For instance, one could easily argue that the experience of devotion is a way to cultivate and refine ones spiritual awareness. The definitions are neutral...open to positive and negative interpretation and association.
What I am suggesting is that we 'modernists' have coloured the meaning of a word like 'cult' really strongly to imply derogatory suggestions and meanings.
And our present definitions of the word'cult' would seem to differ and go way-beyond the neutral 'tone' of the dictionary
ones.
When you think of the word 'cult' what comes to mind?
For me Maharaji and EV are cultic(cultish or whatever)....but
that does not mean that I really mean that personally in ONLY a derogatory (if somewhat popularist) sense of the word.
Nor do I think only negatively about any religion or at least most.
One last point, it seems that we humans exhibit a 'type' of cultish behavior towards anything we believe in .
Think about it! We try to justify whatever it is we believe in and tend to place the 'guru's' (Darwin, Dawkins, Freud, Jung,
fred bloggs) on a pedestal...OR indeed our own selves!
Keith.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:00:53 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: Cults and the guru papers.
Message:
My above post was posted before I realised that Jim had posted the guru papers.
(I still experience a delay in downloading posts onto my forum page ).
I shall carefully read them .
HOW is this for synchronicity? As I sit here now my wife is at the local library seeking a copy of the guru papers.
Keith
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 14:55:22 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Keith
Subject: Cults and the guru papers.
Message:
Keith,

If you would like to purchase your own copy of the Guru Papers,
try www.powells.com which is a big bookstore in Portland, Oregon. They have a couple of copies in stock for ten bucks plus shipping. I'm just getting into it now and am already impressed at the level of though and analysis the authors exhibit. A little deeper than L'il Orphan Annie's 'just somebody's opinion' . It makes me seriously doubt she read it.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 20:28:51 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: Guru Papers (part 1) - reprint
Message:
I'm losing it. I think I posted this before some time ago. Well, here it is, again:

Guru Ploys

People whose power is based on the surrender of others develop a repertoire
of techniques for deflecting and undermining anything that questions or
challenges their status, behavior, or beliefs.

Th deceit underlying most ploys is that the guru has no self interest at
all. The traditional ideal of enlightenment allows this deceit free reign,
because the guru is placed in a category beyond the knowledge and judgement
of others. From here, gurus can rationalize any contradictory behavior.

Though some gurus say that doubts are healthy, they subtly punish them.
Doubt is not the way to get into the inner circle.

Another ploy is calling whatever seems problematic 'a test of faith.'

Since those without self-trust look for certainty in others, power is just
there for the taking by anyone who puts out a message, with certitude, that
tells people what they want to hear.

To maintain control, it is necessary to undermine self-trust. This is
insidiously done by removing the ways in which people can build trust in
themselves--by utilizing one's personal, firsthand experience as feedback.

Gurus undercut reason as a path to understanding. When they do allow
inquiry, they often place the highest value on paradox. Paradox easily
lends itself to mental manipulation: no matter what position you take, you
are always shown to be missing the point, the point being the guru knows
something you do not.

What appears to be a strong bond between guru and disciple is illusory, as
it depends solely upon the disciple's acknowledging the guru's authority.
Should that break, little remains.

Even those on the lowest rung can feel superior to those who have not had
the intelligence to become members.

To those observing such authoritarian groups on the outside, it appears
members give up their power to the leader. But most disciples did not have
very much personal power to begin with.

Although many gurus they do not need any special treatment and would be as
happy in cave, the power an adulation at their disposal are more seductive
than any drug.

Looking carefully at a guru's inner circle is extremely revealing. Those
closest to him, his most dedicated students, display better than anything
else where his teaching leads after years of exposure.

What is also displayed is who he prefers to have around him. Do disciples
ever 'graduate' and become self-defining adults, or do they remain obedient
and tied to the guru? Are they strong and interesting in their own right,
or are they boring sycophants who continually feed his ego? It is also very
enlightening to observe how gurus treat and refer to those who leave their
fold.

The person at the apex if a hierarchical pyramid cannot show weakness or
real commonality with those below. Many gurus vociferously claim they
discourage worshipful attitudes in their followers, alas, to no avail.
This is another manipulation of image, the reality being that gurus are
powerful enough to construct whatever environment around them they want.
Especially in situations involving power, it is most important to pay
attention to what people do than what they say.

...this includes the power to make people who are being callously
manipulated believe they are freer than everyone else.

Gurus likewise do many things to ensure that their disciples' prime
emotional allegiance is towards them.

In the realm of sexuality, the two prevalent ways control is exerted are
through either celibacy or promiscuity. Although seemingly opposite, both
serve the same function: they minimize the possibilities of people bonding
deeply with each other, thus reducing factors that compete with the guru
for attention.

Fostering promiscuity, impersonal sex, and interchangeable partners
accomplishes the same agenda as celibacy. It trivializes sexual attraction
and undermines coupling.

Extremes in emotionally disconnected sex also disconnect the desire for
closeness with another, especially when intimacy is pejoratively labelled
attachment. This makes it easy for the guru to be the central emotional
bond. As a result, many disciples gradually give less importance to sex.
They take this as a sign of progress, for after all, they tried sex to
their hearts content and seemed to have outgrown it, precisely as promised.
Not coincidentally, this also increased their faith in the guru's wisdom
and made them available to work harder on whatever agenda the guru
prescribed. This answers the riddle of how promoting detached promiscuity
eventually turns dedicated hedonists into dedicated workers.

If an authority not only expects to be obeyed without question, but either
punishes or refuses to deal with those who do not, that authority is
authoritarian.

Stages of cults

Authoritarian groups with a leader who has few constraints (our definition
of a cult) derive their intense feelings of loyalty and unity from erecting
huge walls between insiders and outsiders.

Most cults follow a predictable progression of two distinct stages, which
indicates that what is involved is more a function of how authoritarian
structures work than of the particular teachings of a given guru.

This is an easy, mechanical route to intimacy that will be attractive as
long as alienation is rife.

Such rigid boundaries render cults both brittle and easily threatened,
leaving only proselytizing or paranoia as ways of relating to others.

Cults generally put out a similar message, each proclaiming their
specialness. The leader at the group are touted to be at the cutting edge
or awareness, spirituality, evolution (whatever).

As long as they are gaining in strength and membership, this attitude is
reinforced. Believing they are on the crest of a wave, the feeling within
the group and the leader is one of optimism and satisfaction. Their stance
towards outsiders is one of benign superiority. Others will catch up or
see the light in due time.

Within the community, there is a sense of both intimacy and potency, and a
celebratory, party like atmosphere often reigns. Everything seems perfect,
the guru is accessible, charming, fun.

Power and certainty do feel better than weakness and confusion.
Unfortunately, such feelings make self delusion more rather than less
likely.

A time inevitably comes when the power and popularity of the group begins
to wane...the apocalyptic phase enters and the party is over.

Then one of two things generally happens: The first is that the guru's
message turns pessimistic or doomsday, voicing something like this: ' soon
civilization is going to break down and face amazing disasters, except for
us who are wisely withdrawing to protect our purity.' The other is that to
attract more people the group makes increasingly bizarre promises.

Any member who leaves threatens the cohesiveness of the whole group.

This mounting mistrust is not wholly paranoid, there is some reason for it,
because as the group becomes more closed and bizarre, outsiders react more
negatively.

The transition from optimistic expansionism to the paranoid doomsday mode
involves heavy turnover of people. Those not really 'serious' leave and
others begin to surreptitiously question the leader's omniscience. In an
attempt to counteract this, this group becomes more militaristic, demanding
even greater obedience.

The fun is over. The rewards are now put into the distant future, and are
achievable only through hard work.

This glorification of work always involves improving the leader's property,
increasing his wealth or some grandiose project.

Though the guru needs his disciples even more attached to him, he becomes
more remote, sending his dictates down the line.

Often, he consciously or unconsciously blames those around him for the
failure of his aspirations.

As the group's isolation increases, so does its paranoia towards outsiders.
those who drop out are often threatened.

Like religions, cults offer meaning, purpose, identity, and community. But
the feeling of unity is more intense in cults as their internal
cohesiveness depends on protecting the purity of the group from outsiders.
Thus there is relentless group pressure for loyalty and conformity.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 20:30:54 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Guru Papers (part 2) - reprint
Message:
Authority, Hierarchy, and Power

Mental or psychological authoritarianism comes from an inner urge to obey
someone or something that is viewed as higher, more powerful, morally
superior, or more knowledgeable--or to be that for someone else. These two
stances are not mutually exclusive, but usually co-exist in the same person
and are triggered by different circumstances.

The corruptions of power occur when maintaining power becomes central and
more important than its affect on others. It s power within a hierarchy
that lends itself to the greatest abuse and corruption.

Since authoritarianism is inherently hierarchical, one can easily think
that hierarchy itself is necessarily authoritarian. This is because
hierarchies import an unequal distribution of power that seems inevitably
to congeal into authoritarian structures.

Not all authority is authoritarian and it is crucial to distinguish the
difference.

We too value and respect loyalty--if deserved; duty--if self generated; and
even obedience -- if freely contracted along a defined, specific and
limited band of activity. But when loyalty, duty and obedience are valued
in themselves, they become the rationale for using others without regard to
their well being.

If an authority no only expects to be obeyed without question, but either
punishes or refuses to deal with those who do not, that authority is
authoritarian.

What this boils down to is whether a hierarchy is essentially power driven
or task-driven:

1. What is its purpose?
2. Who decides if this purpose is being fulfilled and how is this
decided?
3. How free are the members of the hierarchy to enter and leave it?
That is, how much coercion is involved in getting people to
belong and stay?
4. How responsive is it to change from within or without, and how
open is it to internal or external feedback? This includes who
determines what is even considered relevant feedback.
5. In what direction does power flow? Does it only flow from top to
bottom, or are there mechanisms within the structure of the
hierarchy that give the lower rungs a say in who the higher rungs
are and what they do?

Determining whether a hierarchy is task or power driven is obscured because
powerdriven hierarchies almost always present themselves as performing
tasks.

Especially with tasks that never end, unless the hierarchies have
mechanisms to ensure that they are task driven, will most likely become
power driven.

When power and privileges flow from position, protecting the position
easily becomes the main concern.

Recognizing authoritarian control

Surrendering to a guru brings instant intimacy with all who share the same
values...Acceptance by and identification with the group induce a loosening
of personal boundaries [which] increase the emotional content of ones life,
bringing purpose, meaning and hope. It is no wonder that who join such
groups rave about how much better they feel previously.

Surrender is the glue that binds guru and disciple. Being a disciple
offers the closest approximation (outside of mental institutions) to the
special configuration of infancy.

Once again, one experiences being at the center of the universe--if not
directly (the guru occupies that space), at least closer to the center than
one could have thought possible.

Surrendering to an authority who dictates what's right is a quick route to
feeling more virtuous.

That act of surrender itself can feel like a giving up or a diminishing of
one's ego, which is presented as a sign of spiritual progress.

No matter how much better one initially feels, in the long run anything
that undermines self-trust is detrimental to becoming an adult.

Many who are involved in authoritarian surrender adamantly deny that they
are. Those who see the dissembling in other gurus or leaders an find
countless ways to believe that their guru is different.

It is not at all unusual to be in an authoritarian relationship and not
know it.

Any of the following are strong indicators or belonging to an authoritarian
group:

1. No deviation from the party line is allowed. Anyone who has
feelings or thoughts contrary to the accepted perspective is made
to feel wrong or bad for having them.
2. Whatever the authority does is regarded as perfect or right.
Thus behaviors that would be questioned in others are made to
seem different or proper.
3. One trusts that the leader or others in the group know what is
best.
4. It is difficult to communicate with anyone not in the group.
5. One finds oneself defending the actions of the leader or other
members without having first hand knowledge of what occurred.
6. At times one is confused and fearful without knowing why. This
is a sign that doubts are being repressed.

The only way any living system works well is to have information flowing
freely between its parts and its environment. The guru/disciple
relationship cuts off this flow of information for both, creating a
feedback-proof system.

Although one's individual boundaries are open to the group, the group's
boundaries are closed to outsiders. Ultimately, one only accepts and feels
comfortable with those either within the system or open to proselyting.

Most often those who become involved in such groups could not conceive of
themselves as subject to authoritarian manipulation. They saw themselves
rather as true spiritual adventurers, unafraid to push against the
boundaries of convention.

But it is only the authority of the guru that gives people the permission
and freedom to 'act out.' ... direction and permission from an authority
combined with group pressure moved many to act out in ways they were not
capable of.

This kind of freedom is a real illusion...to rebel against one authority
(society) by accepting another (a leader who gives permission to rebel
merely shifts allegiance while giving the illusion of liberation.

That many discontented and innovative people were thus seduced into
submission and conformity (visible only to others) indicates the depth of
people's susceptibility to authoritarian control.

Gurus and Sexual Manipulation: the betrayal of trust

Having sex with one's disciples whether secretly or openly is a real
betrayal of trust because:

1. The Guru is putting his own needs and pleasures first, which is
exploitation. 'Honoring' a disciple with sex is a form of unabashed
dominance--how can a disciple refuse who is committed to obey?

2. Rewarding women for their sexuality taps into and reinforces deep lines
of conditioning. Traditionally, women's power has been related to
sex...Gurus, like fathers, are in a context that gives them enormous power
because of their disciples' needs, trust and dependency. One reason incest
is a betrayal is what a daughter needs from her father is a sense of self-
worth not specifically linked to her sexuality. Sex with a guru is
similarly incestuous...having sex with a parental figure reinforces using
sex for power.

3...

The thoughts in this book could always be written off as unspiritual,
egotistical, and coming form a lower level of understanding.

Blind surrender to an authority is an emotional indulgence and illusory
security the species can no longer afford.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 20:46:57 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What sayeth thee, Premies?
Message:
I'm curious, premies, what you think of the following proposition from the above excerpts (the emphasis is mine):

If an authority not only expects to be obeyed without question, but either
punishes or refuses to deal with those who do not, that authority is
authoritarian.


Would you say this statement is generally true? Jack? Bruce? Richard? Chris? JW? The premie half of Keith?
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 21:52:45 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Staying free
Message:
Jim thankyou for posting the Guru Papers.
I want to quote from them:
1. No deviation from the party line is allowed. Anyone who has
feelings or thoughts contrary to the accepted perspective is made
to feel wrong or bad for having them.
2. Whatever the authority does is regarded as perfect or right.
Thus behaviors that would be questioned in others are made to
seem different or proper.
3. One trusts that the leader or others in the group know what is
best.
4. It is difficult to communicate with anyone not in the group.
5. One finds oneself defending the actions of the leader or other
members without having first hand knowledge of what occurred.
6. At times one is confused and fearful without knowing why. This
is a sign that doubts are being repressed.

The only way any living system works well is to have information flowing
freely between its parts and its environment. The guru/disciple
relationship cuts off this flow of information for both, creating a
feedback-proof system.


I think this is very imortant for our Forum, too. I don't think people should be criticised for having their own opionion, however I may disagree with it, for example Jim, the tone you have used with some of the 'premies' very recently.
Of course it's your own business what you say. But to me there is no 'right' about this. It is not that I would be 'right' because I received k. the most recently, or had been around the longest, either. Otherwise surely people won't come here to discuss these issues - and then we will all be 'right' and lose touch with balancing points of view/valuable input and information. We are all adding different parts of the same jigsaw, that's how I see it. Even if I think I have the right answer and I don't like some of the parts, they have to be allowed to be put on the table. Not that I'm saying you don't allow, and I do see that the others can stick up for themselves, so maybe I better butt out of this. I don't want to make it personal but this 'cult' thing is a concern with me - how it could happen here, too. Just my opinion as an impartial observor, with nothing to gain or lose (yet?)
Regards Jude the perverse.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:25:36 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Relax, Jude
Message:
Jude,

You really should think this through for once and for all. No one here is an authority, no one here has any power over anyone, save but for the power of persuasion. Don't believe me? Play out the weirdest scenario you can muster in your head to make this site a 'cult'. What would it be?

You'll see that if you really want to imagine such a bizarre scenario a whole lot of ridiculous things would have to happen. Until then, the idea's a non-starter.

Now, let's be specific. You say you don't think people should be criticised for having their own opionion, however I may disagree with it, for example Jim, the tone you have used with some of the 'premies' very recently.'

Jude, I don't criticise anyone for having their own opinion. No one here does. However, I do criticise some opinions and sometimes I, like others here, do so strongly. So? What's wrong with that? I personally think that people who lie about the past are despicable. But, again, that's just my opinion. What's yours?

You're right, no one here has any presumed authority because of when they got Knowledge. On the other hand, if you're talking about something that happened in '71 and you were there and I wasn't, I'd want to be careful to have my facts straight. After all, yours come first hand, presumably. Mine don't.

See what I mean?

When I tell Jack he's wrong to minimize the intensity of the ashram in the eyars before he becaome a premie, I'm not arguing from undeserved authority, I'm arguing from the authority of personal experience. Everything's on the table. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?

Really, Jude, please think this through.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:35:32 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Relax, Jude
Message:
Jim

All fishermen are liars except thee and me?

Okay, I'll settle down.

When I read the Psychology of Spiritual Movements article (hope I got the right name) via the Recommended Links section of this site, it concerned me a teensy bit about the descripton of how cults form.

for example, there are authority figures behidn the scenes who decide what to do, what rules to make. I know you guys and brian recently had a discussion about this. Brian clearly said he only limited a certain premie from posting, didnt cut him off altogether and I think that is eminently reasonable, if the person is just being a damned nuisance (like me?) or just trying to wreck things here.

But I personally like to see all communication up front including 'board meetings' or whatever, because then there is nothing hidden - and the people for example running this Forum don't form a hierarchy similar to a 'cult'. Some get power, others don't. Then as the article suggested, bitchiness and gossip also happens behind the scenes. everyone gets cynical. then people get burned. Am I paranoid, or is it worth discussing things like this, or have they already been discussed?

It's like physician, heal thyself sort of. I'll go away now.
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Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 22:47:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jude
Subject: Yeah, but go smiling
Message:
Yes Jude, go away. It's Friday night. Surely you and I both have something better to do than argue about the meaning of cult. (Same for you, Keith). You want to get into that discussion there's a non-stop argument about that word that's been going on for THREE YEARS over on alt.support.ex-cult . Yech!

Personally, I think the Gnu Papers authors offer a useful enough definition in that excerpt: Authoritarian groups with a leader who has few constraints. Isn't that what we're dealing with here? (No, I don't mean HERE, I mean there!)

- g!

Jim

Joined a cult in '73
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 17:39:35 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Jude
Subject: Relax, Jude
Message:
The site/forum is probably a good example of the differences touched on in The Guru Papers between task-oriented authority and power-oriented authority. The last person maintaining the site/forum wanted to hand over the keys to the kingdom and do something else. His request went ignored for a long time until he gave a deadline after which there would be nobody driving.

We didn't all jump up and wrestle for the carrot of 'power' he was offering, because we recognized it as being a stick of 'task'.

If Maharaji steps down tomorrow, how long do you think he'll have to beg for someone to take over his wealth? Don't you think that people around him are being careful that they don't lose their front-row seats? When his 707 was customized the first thing that went was the seats for others!!

for example, there are authority figures behidn the scenes who decide what to do, what rules to make. I know you guys and brian recently had a discussion about this.

Contrast this with the MANY times that Maharaji has asked for advice from his followers. Can you think of ANY?? Has he ever locked the door and asked the premies what they think would be a good way to take Knowledge to the world? Think they all said 'Don't Use The Internet!'?? He's pretty quick to come up with ideas that line his pockets, like videos.

When I talk to people about the site and the cult I used to belong to, I have to refer to the 13-year-old guru. They remember THAT guy. What ever happpened to him anyway? Other than wealth, I mean? And power, of course...
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 18:06:59 (EST)
From: Jude
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Relax, Jude
Message:
Yes I agree and there's been some very good info on authority based organisations - which has 'blown me out' because before I even found this Fourm and this BIG change has happened, I was lined up to start a new job, at a school.
Gues what , the school is run by ONE man. THey change people's name (everyone is referred to by INITIALS) and you have to call each other MR and MISS. I have a name-plate calling me MRS Jude (but that is my mother's name).

It is so bizarre, and what's more the previous occupant of the job was so unhappy becasue every problem she had was IGNORED
Just like what is being described.

This school prides itself on its discipline and is very uniform-conscious and kind of fake posh. Dead values. Anyway, now that I have learnt something about this stuff to validate my gut feelings....I feel more empowered. Thankyou everyone.

By the way, what really horrifies me about M is the whole dynasty thing and the idea of passing on the mantle. I had no idea about all of that. I thought he was 'chosen' but that it was just a coincidence that both he and hisfather were masters. Of course, to get a Perfect master, I thought, it would be good for their dad to be a master. But I thuoght M was like Jesus.
I thought once he died that would be it until the next one came. That's why I couldnt understand why he was building Amaroo.
which by the way, must have cost a colossal amount of money. And guess what, the year when nothing was built, it was truly beautiful. When the ampitheatre went in...I mean it was obviously built to accomodate all the overseas premies. That money wasn't spent on propogation.
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Fri, May 15, 1998 at 23:07:47 (EST)
From: Keith
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What sayeth thee, Premies?
Message:
Jim,
Thanks for printing these quotes.
The premie half of me says,
I do not know if Maharaji or his inner circle would banish or punish me for questioning things the way I do?
As I have said before I shall let you all know when I discover the truth of this for myself.
The non-premie half of me says ,
exactly the same ......wow, they do agree sometimes!

Honestly , I am not shirking the issue.
If I was as extreme in my thoughts as you I could well imagine that M would not bother with my questions or anything else.
I would not try to make friends with a rattle snake.(OR SCORPION).
As for the quotes over-all (the guru papers) , well I think that there is much to ponder and the statements are well expressed.
I shall wait until I get a copy so I can read the entire script and then comment .
I feel that the guru papers should be compulsory reading for premies ....followed by group discussion......and Maharaji himself should respond too.....in order to foster open discussion,
free thinking and to deal with the core criticisms that are being made here on this site....and which the guru papers echo.
(and vice-versa).
I shall read other responses to the g.p's with interest.
Especially from other premies.
Regards Keith.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 20:47:41 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What sayeth thee, Premies?
Message:
Jim,

The notion that m. does not deal with you and some other ex-prems is largely a fallacy of your own making . So many
questions similar to those repeatedly posted here by you and other exprems have been answered either directly by M or through his agents over the years.

I and a greatly larger number of people than the handful here
have heard and been satisfied by these answers.

If you and others chose to remove yourselves from both the physical and more importantly, attitudinal situations in which you might have actually heard and understood what M. was trying to tell you, then that is your business, but you can't then keep complaining about the SITUATION WHICH YOU YOURSELF HAVE CREATED.

Oh yes, since you mentioned it, this refusal to deal with us stuff how do you know that M hasn' t asked me or CD for example to try to deal with you?

You're lucky that M. is not a real authoritarian. Try setting up a critical webpage about General Suharto for example.
Now he really knows how to deal with people who are pests.

Bruce
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 20:55:26 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: What sayeth thee, Premies?
Message:
Bruce,

I think the comparison between Maharaji and Suharto is a clear and valid one. Keep up the good work.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:35:30 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Gerry
Subject: What sayeth thee, Premies?
Message:
Gerry,

Have you been to Indonesia? To east Timor?

If you think there is any comparison between M. and Suharto,

then I have to say to you keep up the good work!

Good humouredly, as you exprems always are of course,

Bruce
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 23:52:35 (EST)
From: Pest
Email: None
To: Bruce
Subject: What is the point?
Message:
Bruce,
What was that thing in bold? Are you saying that M is nice because he hasn't had us all killed? What is your point?

Since you brought it up, are you working for Maharaji to deal with us? Is CD? Are you allowed to answer if you are? Just curious.

VP (Very Pesty)
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:47:16 (EST)
From: Bruce
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: What sayeth thee, Premies?
Message:
Everyone,

My answer to this is in the Annie thread above. Hell, does Jim have a secretary or something?

Bruce
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 19:19:04 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Guru Papers (part 1) - reprint
Message:
Thanks.
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 22:34:59 (EST)
From: Carol
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Guru Papers Thanks,Jim
Message:
I'm glad you posted these again because I had not read them before. I saved them in Word to copy. Is this part of a book? Carol
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Date: Sat, May 16, 1998 at 23:12:40 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Carol
Subject: Guru Papers Thanks,Jim
Message:
Yes, they're part of a book called -- da da! -- The Guru Papers. Do a search for the title and you'll find a few places to get it if you're interested.
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 11:00:43 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Spying in Guruland
Message:
I don't don't know whether anyone has come across this other book: 'Spying in Guruland'. It came out a couple of years ago in the UK. I can't remember the author, but would like to get hold of it.

The writer actually joined a whole series of cults and reported back from the 'inside' on their message, the membership, their behaviour etc. Don't know whether EV was included, but doubt it somehow, since the organisation has had such a low profile for so long.

Has anybody read it, or know the author?
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Date: Sun, May 17, 1998 at 15:55:08 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Found it...
Message:
Check out: http://www.csj.org/csjbkrev122spy.htm

for an interesting review of 'Spying in Guruland'
No BM, though.
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Date: Mon, May 18, 1998 at 23:28:32 (EST)
From: *>*...b
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: Found it...
Message:
Thanks
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