Ex-Premie.Org |
Forum III Archive # 5 | |
From: Apr 23, 1998 |
To: May 5, 1998 |
Page: 3 Of: 5 |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 20:17:33 (EST)
From: Carol Email: coopmtncarol To: Everyone Subject: 1st post and response to David Message: This started as a letter in response to a post from Sir David dated Apr21 Subject:to Steve and everyone and I decided to post to the whole group and whoever else reads the forum. Hi David and all, I have been reading posts on the Forum periodically, but have not taken the plunge to post to it. I am in agreement with your view about love. That was the hook that got me into knowledge in 1972. I still feel nostalgic for the devotion (love) I experienced and attributed to Maharaji and also certain premies I knew. But I recognize now that the love I feel and felt resides within me and is a natural part of being a human and spirit at the same time. I am reluctant to identify myself as non-'premie' simply because I no longer believe that Maharaji is an omniscient perfect master who is the only source of the knowledge of our true nature. I love God within me and you and all creation. I believe in a loving accepting God that wishes me to be as God is: loving accepting and forgiving. I do not believe that Maharaji is God any more than we all are and I believe that is the early message that he conveyed to us. He has charisma and his own unique gifts (and deficits). We are capable of enriching our own lives and others by using our unique personalities and gifts. I can still feel the remembrance of love for Maharaji just like I still love other people I have loved at different times in my life. At the same time I know he has been a source of great pain to many people that also loved him, and I feel empathy. I would have been in the ashram as well, but I was restricted because I had just left my marriage with a 3 year old son. As a 'householder', I was subject with others to a certain amount of discrimination by certain ashram persons (and a particular visiting initiator). When I went to India, Rajaswar, my 'mahatma' told me publicly I should give my son to Indian parents so they could raise him to be a mahatma. I don't know if he was serious, but I rejected the option. I was very involved in the premie community, a housemother in a couple of premie houses, did service with Divine Sales, lots of cleaning and cooking, and childcare, a puppet show, visits to old folks homes and preschools with singing, plays and puppet shows. in love with the community director. I wanted to marry him very much around the time of Maharaji's marriage and also some ashram couples. I was rejected because he was committed to remain in the ashram. I remarried another house father. We had 2 sons together. Our marriage had problems once it lost the stucture of community and our particular roles not long after the ashrams closed, we finally split in '86. There were old abuse issues in my life buried or detached from me by my ability to reframe the experience from a knowledge perspective, but which resurfaced later and contributed to relationship troubles. I was abused as a child and was also raped by my older brother a month or so after receiving knowledge. I didn't have counseling for that for 16 years. Only in the last year have I felt completely healed from that episode, due to an understanding that forgiveness is the tool that heals. I have been supported in recent years by my 'new thought' church: the Living Enrichment Center. I ran into old premies there: John Thielen, Noani Oehler, Mike Cook. There were so many people that passed through our lives. I wish there was a place to access the names and addresses or phone numbers of people I'd like to talk to again. That is partly the reason I'm posting here, so people who want to talk to me can. I am currently married for 10 years and with a 4th son. My husband went to see Maharaji once with me and went to a few video programs. He was interested and open, but he just got nothing out of watching the videos and neither of us was willing to chase all over the world to go to programs the way I did int the earlier years. I no longer feel that 'knowledge' is necessary to grow into our true selves, it happens with God's help no matter who or where you are. Some very dear people, friends of mine, are still active premies (Stan Cohen from Portland and Vermont, Miles Armstrong from Portland and Ashland, June (Sweet) Myersen from Portland, and others.) I don't want to want to appear critical or unaccepting by announcing to anyone that I think the person they worship is just a man and that knowledge is not the only way. I also believe that Maharaji believes in himself and what he is doing. I also know that I could be wrong and I'm taking some risk to disbelieve. I would enjoy open discussion without judgements on either side, and I've found some of that at the Forum. Everyone must find their own way. I believe that there are many rivers and one ocean. If a person believes in God or love with all their heart and practices alligning themselves with God as they know it, by whatever name they call it, and by whatever practice they choose, then the experience will be of God and love no matter by what name they call it.... unless it causes harm to others or themselves. I am conflicted in my feelings about Maharaji but not about God and love. I am becoming free, I hope, of the notion that I am not living up to my promise as a premie and not practicing knowledge the way I was instructed and not experiencing all that I am meant to. I have compassion for those, including myself that have difficulty practicing any meditation in the way that feels right without the feeling sometimes that I'm supposed to do something different. I recently was called by an old premie friend who told me about a program coming up in Seattle this June. Until I read the posts here, beginning last January, I would have just gone. I thought of myself as a premie who didn't practice the way I was taught who still felt a love connection or feeling of gratitude that I had knowledge and I'd only see him when it was convenient or close, and that was OK. Now I feel like I'm not sure I want to go, but maybe should to see how it feels. There are also people I'd like to see who may be there. Anyone know what happened to Steven Stoltenberg from Portland? And I'd love to see my old friend Tom McNab! Heard he's moving now to New Mexico. I feel we need to take from others whatever will help us to learn and grow. Everyone can be a teacher to us. Likewise we are all teachers and it is wise to be aware of what we are teaching by our thoughts and actions and words. I can be reached at my personal e-mail address : coopmtncarol@hotmail.com Namaste, Sincerely and with love, Carol (Reynolds, then Clausnitzer,now Bruce) still residing in the Portland OR area Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 20:59:19 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: everyone Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: I hope you will respond to my post. Here are some quotes I like: We have an opportunity to live in joy. Do not postpone happiness until the debts are settled and relationships rearranged. Joy doesn't exist out in the world somewhere; we find it inside. -- Rev. Mary Manin Morrissey Our past is neither an accident nor a mistake. We have been where we needed to be, with the necessary people. We can embrace our history,with its pain, its imperfections, its mistakes, even its tragedies. It is uniquely ours; it was intended just for us. Today, we are right where we need to be. Our present circumstances are exactly as they need to be - for now. -- Melody Beattie, The Language of Letting Go Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 21:13:32 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Hi Carol It's funny that I posted a seemingly irreverent thread at almost the same time you posted yours. Just wanted you to know I get out there sometimes, but you more serious insights are very appreciated. Welcome. A lot of us had similar abuse issues. It seems to have been a sign of the times, and a strong lure into cultism. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 21:45:38 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Carol, You seem like a really nice person who is actually interested in figuring a few things out. Just for that, and because you asked, I'll give you my two cents worth on both quotes. We have an opportunity to live in joy. Do not postpone happiness until the debts are settled and relationships rearranged. Joy doesn't exist out in the world somewhere; we find it inside. This first seems relatively harmless. I guess the clergy have to scrape some kind of teaching together now and then and this seems like pretty garden variety stuff. I don't think it means anything worthwhile though. The good reverand's right that 'joy' doesn't exist in the outer world like a copper deposit. Who said it did? But it doesn't exist 'inside' either. It's a function of our interaction with the world. That's what I think anyway. As for 'postponing happiness', oh excuse me while I put on a smile. Sorry, that kind of talk rubs me as incredibly simplistic. Our past is neither an accident nor a mistake. We have been where we needed to be, with the necessary people. We can embrace our history,with its pain, its imperfections, its mistakes, even its tragedies. It is uniquely ours; it was intended just for us. Today, we are right where we need to be. Our present circumstances are exactly as they need to be - for now. The second quote is dangerous bullshit. Absolute garbage spouted by yet another trickster out to make money. (Not to mention stupid -- how can we 'embrace' our mistakes if, as she says, they don't exist?) If I could talk with Ms. Beattie about this the first thing I'd ask her is 'How much have you made so far with this book?' Then I'd ask her how she knew what she was talking about. Then I'd get specific and ask her who determines our 'need's as she defines them? Who is it that 'intends' stuff to happen to us and how does she know? Then I'd curse her -- I'd tell her that I'd like her to contact me if and when real tragedy ever befalls her so that I can remind her that there's nothing to worry about, it was EXACTLY what she needed. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:21:59 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Yeah, right on Jim! The world doesn't need more bullshit artists telling us everything is 'perfect'. Now back to 'Beavis and Butthead Do America' for some real inspiration. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:37:14 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Oh, did you read my previous posting? I was the 1st 'reply' with the added quotes. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:09:31 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Dear Jim, Hope you had a good break! See you haven't lost your edge. Welcome back. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:28:19 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: I rethought my response of agreeing with you because I don't like conflict. I certainly didn't expect these quotes to cause such a response. I see the one you called bullshit as simply a message that we can use every experience to further our knowledge about ourselves and our spiritual growth. If I had not had some 'bad' experiences, I may not have grown as a person as I feel that I have, with greater compassion and understanding of others as well. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:48:35 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Hi Carol, I agree with you that we learn from our wounds, self-inflicted or not. That's a completely different sentiment than what Beattie's selling, though. Take a look at it again: Our past is neither an accident nor a mistake. How does she know this? And, like I said earlier, if she wre right, there'd be nothing to learn from, would there? Do whatever, whenever, however and know that you can wake up tommorrow assured that whatever you did -- whatever happened to you, in fact -- was perfect. Bullshit. We have been where we needed to be, with the necessary people. Same bullshit, same criticism. We can embrace our history,with its pain, its imperfections, its mistakes, even its tragedies. 'Embrace'? How about 'accept' in the sense that one thing we know is that we'll never change the past; might as well make the best of it. Those are two entirely different sentiments. The latter is healthy, I'd say, because it allows you to re-act to your past effectively. If we all 'embraced' our years as premies thee wouldn't be room for anything but. Well, this kind of talk is just new age jargon in any event, isn't it? So far from real life it's ludicrous. Maybe if we were younger and more gullible we might think otherwise but, at this point, you and I both know that Ms. Beattie doesn't 'embrace' her past one iota more than anyone else. If she has a setback in her life she feels it just like anyone else. The only difference is, depending on her audience, she might pretend she doesn't. And again, she's contradicted herself big-time with that 'mistake' stuff. How can you learn from something which doesn't exist? It is uniquely ours; it was intended just for us. Today, we are right where we need to be. Our present circumstances are exactly as they need to be - for now. Who the fuck does she think she is? The Oracle at Delphi? And who's doing all this intending and custom-fitting of life for us? Would she actually try to seel this crap to someone who's experienced real tragedy? I'd like to be there when she does. Know what I mean? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 13:03:35 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Alright, I concede. I don't want to believe that there are no accidents because if a 'higher power' were in charge of them, than that is a cruel way to teach lessons. I practice acceptance, but I don't embrace all of my past either! I believe that when we put our awareness on the present, we get to choose what our experience or reaction to events will be,if we are free of habitual patterns of thought. If not, if we always do what we've always done, we'll always get what we always got. Or to say it another way...we are the authors of our own experience. Do you agree with that? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 13:20:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: I'd say we're the authors of our own experience just like pilots determine if they're going to fly safely. Sometimes even the greatest preparation isn't enough but it sure helps. For example, remember Mr. Kling____ , the wheelchair-bound American tourist on the Achille Lauro (sp?) tossed overboard by the arab terrorist? He might have been an extremely careful tourist. What appalls me so much is that level of new age thinking that bends over backwards to find some way to say a victim somehow 'invited' his difficulty. It's just a big combination if things, isn't it? A little planning, a little luck..... Nice to see you're sticking around! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 13:55:00 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Jim, I didn't hear about that story, but it is a good example. I wonder what did he do after that or did he die? Do you know about the guy(forgot his name) who was severely burned, scarred face, missing fingers, etc. who has become a motivational speaker even after a second tragedy in which he crashed in a plane and lost his ability to walk as well. His message...it is all about what you do with what you get, and nothing can stop you from attaining your goals (barring death).Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:02:54 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Hi Carol, No, he died alright. Don't know why that example came to mind either. I hven't heard of the fellow you mention but I'm not surprised. Adversity really brings the best out of us at times. You know, this whole area of goals, confidence and realism is a really perplexing one -- for me anyway. Sometimes, if you bullshit yourself you accomplish results. There's no question about that. But then, sometimes, you don't and all you've got is the line you handed yourself. For example, if you're auditioning for a part, you might be going up against hundreds of competitors. Leaving aside the question of what they've done to motivate themselves, you might have prepped by telling yourself that you're the one, you're born to play the part, you're the best, etc. Now, objectively speaking, that might be but likely isn't true. You're just one of a bunch of good candidates. But who needs 'objective' (i.e. real) facts at a time like this? Shit, I've never been able to figure this out. I can tell you I've got the greatest little band in the world, but that's different... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:20:51 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Tell me what sort of music do you play? Is it in Canada? Do you travel and play for $$? Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:37:09 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Carol, After watching the PBS Lou Reed special last night I'd have to say we sound like the Velvet Underground. If it'd been a Jiva show -- who knows? No, we DO sound like the Velvets, I think. I keep promising a CD but we never actually do it. We play for chump change here around Victoria. Where are you anyway? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:40:17 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Jim Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: I know the name Velvet Underground, but I forget the tunes. I'm about 20 miles SW of downtown Portland. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:47:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: We've been down to Cannon Beach a few times. I love that area, well the whole coast is cool. I've also got some friends in Portland. Maybe we'll connect some day. [This is how little girls get lured away from their daddy's computer terminals!] Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:10:39 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: The West is the Best Message: I'm in Western Washington State. Maybe we could ALL get together and swap war stories. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:26:38 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The East of the West is Best Message: Jim, Gerry & Carol: I grew up in eastern Washington. Totally different animal, though. Cattle, cowboys, sage, high desert. My uncle, Jack Talkington, was world champion cowboy the year I was born. Wonder if Robyn's 'foot friend' was from there? Might even have been my uncle. I never got over to the water-logged effete western part of the state until I was an adult. Now I can see what all that soft living has done to you guys. Velvet Underground, how can you get more effete than that? I'll Be Your Mirror, but I'll have to inject myself first. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:29:21 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: The East of the West is Best Message: Effete? EFFETE????? HOW DARE YOU? Water-logged yes, but not this week--8o's and sunny for the last five days...but don't tell anybody. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:03:25 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The East of the West is Best Message: Yes, I know what you mean Scott. Western Washington state is by far more interesting than the coast. For one thing, you're a hell of a lot closer to Missoula, aren't you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:12:55 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: The East of the West is Best Message: Jim, Western Washington IS the coast side, you effete snob! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:17:14 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The East of the West is Best Message: I know you are, but what am I? There I did it for you, Jim Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:21:37 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The East of the West is Best Message: No, that only works for premies and Bobby. I meant east. Really, you don't ahve anything better to do but monitor this board for simple typos? Don't they have a 4H club there or something? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:27:58 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: The East of the West is Best Message: Out here in McCleary (pop 1603 and growing) we 're just getting cable TV. We do have an auction Saturday nights during summer, though. But that hasn't started yet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:55:01 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Gerry Subject: The East of the West is Best Message: I forgot to mention the world famous McCleary Bear Festival. The first year I was out here, I thought it was some kind of nekkid party like Woodstock, so I wore my birthday suit. By was I red-faced when I found out they really were into eating large smelly carnivores with the same name. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 20:05:56 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Everyone Subject: The East of the West is Best Message: Whoops! Got my to's and from's reversed on that last post about the Bare Festival Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:20:05 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: The East of the West is Best Message: Jim: Well, the eastern part of both Washington and Oregon have their own special charm. I couldn't wait to get out, however. Still, I'd rather be there than the midwest. For some reason I'd rather be in the desert than Davenport, IA. T.E. Lawrence said he could tell someone had been in the desert just by looking into their eyes. Eastern Oregon has the world's largest inland swamp (Malheur), as well as the smallest mountain range in the US (Strawberries), and there are no towns with a population of more than 30 in the entire southeastern corner. I think French Glen is the largest. There are some ranches with populations twice that large, though. It is an extraordinary place to grow up! I encountered my first rattlesnake before I ever saw a TV. -Scott What's with Missoula? My sister dated a guy from there named Doug Miller. I also remember a Judge Glore. His son Reilly and I almost set fire to a train. Shhh... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:15:31 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Dear Jim, My oldest daughter LOVES the Velvete Underground. I'll have to tell her about your band, it is called Gravel, correct? She is not pleased that I am part of the forum and I am trying to at least get her to a neutral position, maybe this will help? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 12:23:46 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Those damned kids! Message: Robyn: How old is she? We have a 19yr old male that loves the Velvet Underground. He just dropped out of college and moved back home again. So now I come in after work and that wonderfully uplifting song 'Heroin' is blaring 'And I put a spike right through my vein...' Actually, my wife just called me and said that he came out of his bedroom this morning and announced he wants to go to India to search for a Master. Ai yi yi! And I swear it's not my influence!! [Well, maybe a little bit of my influence, but I have really never talked about my years with the guru.] But, I never thought he listened to anything I was saying! I mean, I told him to take out the trash and he never would. I tell him to turn off lights at night, and he never does, I tell him to hang up his towel after a shower and he never does, so hells bells, I never figured he was listening anyway. So, do you think I should give him the address of the current GMJ in the holy town of hardwar? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 13:02:55 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: John Subject: Those damned kids! Message: Dear John, Jessica will be 22 this summer! It was a real intense time for me when she turned 21 as that is how old I was when I had her and it seems like yesterday! She never listened to me either in things about chores etc. I even went on strike against her, not my youngest, when she was in high school. I would make the meals but not serve her or do her dishes. I'd wash the clothes but not hang or fold hers etc. She finally crumbled, was good for a bit and then all things went back but I made a point. When she was applying to the college she graduated from last May, she had to do many essays, one on one of Plato's writings and the rest on more personal topics. I had to write 2 or 3 essays also on her relationships within the family, my impression of how she would fit in in a college atmosphere. The college she went to is geared for kids of high school age. The earliest addmitance is the 2nd half of 9th grade and most kids start after their 10th grade year. We heard about it after her 11th grade year and she started that August. Anyway one of her essays was on the person in her life who influenced her most. I was possitive it would be about one of my best friends with whom she has a very close relationship. I was shocked and honnored that it was me. We were at such odds before that point that I wasn't sure I'd even like her as an adult but things have come full circle and we are as close as two people can be so don't discount the effect you may have on your son. It is worth a shot to talk to him about your feelings on this for sure. God knows we don't want him to need this forum in 20 years! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 13:56:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Robyn and John Subject: I love Lou Message: I am not that crazy about the Velvet Underground (especially with Nico) but I love Lou Reed. His stuff really helped me get out of Maharaji-land (even 'Heroin', John! I think it's a great song). Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 14:09:33 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Katie Subject: Jackie Brown, thumbs up! Message: Katie: Well yeah, I loved the song Heroin for years, but my tastes have changed beyond my control. Lou Reed of course is the epitome of cool, though I simply have no interest in his music anymore. Hey, I saw the movie Jackie Brown last night and loved it. Although the ending was very disappointing. Anyone see it? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 17:02:29 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: John Subject: Jackie Brown, thumbs up! Message: I saw it, John. Yeah, great movie, and I agree about the ending. But then, a movie like that has to have a bitter ending. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:27:53 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Katie Subject: I love Lou Message: Katie: Sure wish I still had that album and cover in pristine condition, with the zippered banana and everything. I'd be able to pay off my education loans. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 14:57:06 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: John Subject: Those damned kids! Message: My 20 yr old son is at Jobcorps near Yakima. He's just passed his GED and is studying trucking on their time and Buddhism on his time. I try to stear him away from following a teacher...wonder why? You know how it is to be fervently into a belief system , you can't dissuade them at that age, so I gave him a few books, including one called Everyone's Right... a comparative religion book. I also shared my experience about mahraji more thouroughly than I had ever before, if you understand what I mean. Also take a look at my entry below about Sundance. A Western get-together would be interesting and probably fun. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:10:52 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Dear Carol and Jim, As I mentioned, Carol, we have gone around this topic before and I see Jim's point, in a way and others that shared his view. They certainly gave me something to think about but I'm not totally convinced. I relate this all to my own experience but maybe using my older daughter as an example will make it easier for me to relate my feelings. My daughter has a very high IQ and a quick mind. When she was a baby I could not let her cry. I think it had a lot to do with her being my first. Friends told me I had to but I physically could not do it. As a result I did not sleep much for the first 8 months of her life and she, being very intelligent learned how to minipulate me, as she grew older. Our relationship has sometimes seemed reversed, she the mother and I the child. She, at some point, would try, and often succeed in making me feel guilty that I didn't have more to give her materialisticly. I use to tell her if she didn't look just like me I'd be sure she had been sent home to the wrong family and my real child had gone home with the King and Queen that were really her parents. My point is that if I had had money to indulge her I probably would have and she may have grow up quite spoiled. Why didn't she have the financial upbringing she thought she so richly deserved when she was small? Her life with me made her into a markedly differnt person than she would have been if she had been a 'princess'. I believe she had this life for a reason. I see this, being grateful for our experiences as to their making us who we are as valid if tempered by self love and respect and effected by good and bad experiences in our lives. I hope I am making some sence as I feel like I am not expressing myself very well. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:31:02 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Hi Robyn, A former incarnation of our band was Gravel. An eariler one was the Flies and now we're the X-Flies. About your thoughts here, I'm not sure I understand what you'e trying to say. Something about co-dependency I take it. Your daughter's got you wrapped around our finger or something? Sorry, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:51:57 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Dear Jim, Did you mean to write Files and Ex-Files or did you mean Flies which is pretty funny! Like the bug? I don't know if I can salvage my point about Jess. Nothing about co-dependency. It was about being thankful for the things that have happened in your life to make you the person you are. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:01:05 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Robyn, I meant X-Flies like the FORMER bug. I think it's more matter of making the best of what's happened, not necessarily liking it. I don't like the fact that I got sucked into a cult for eight years. Nothing can change that and how can I say I wouldn't have been better off otherwise? Hey, that's why we have lawsuits, right? :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 15:03:06 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Robyn Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: You make sense!! Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 16:04:56 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Thanks Carol. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:18:45 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Jim and Carol Subject: Melody Beattie Message: Hi Jim and Carol - Just a few words about Melody Beattie. First, she did write a book after her pre-teeenage son was killed in a skiing accident about three or four years ago. I am not sure if that book is 'Language of Letting Go' or not. Secondly, I think 'Codependent No More', which she wrote, is one of the better self-help books I've read (and I have read a LOT of them. Most of them aren't so great). I don't like the word 'codependent' - it's always seemed meaningless to me. But the book is very down-to-earth and practical, and I know a lot of people who have been helped by it. I have read two of her other books (Codependent No More was her first), and didn't like them as much. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:45:21 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Katie Subject: Melody Beattie Message: Hi Katie, What's so 'down-to-earth and practical' about it? And how has her book helped people? I bet the book and concept may have actually hurt a lot more people than they've ever helped. All relationships are codependent and it's extremely confusing and debilitating to set up one more bullshit ideal for people to get excited about and then flustered when their own lives seem to fall short. Here's an excerpt from the book: All of me, every aspect of my being, is important. I count for something. I matter. My feelings can be trusted. My thinking is appropriate. I value my wants and needs. I do not deserve and will not tolerate abuse or constant mistreatment. I have rights, and it is my responsibility to assert these rights. The decisions I make and the way I conduct myself will reflect my high self-esteem. My decisions will take into account my responsibilities to myself. This is like a manhole to block any self-examination. This is 'Jack Handy' from Saturday Night Live. He's not even an exaggeration yet the character's a joke with universal appeal. Why? Because we all really know that this kind of rap is superficial and meaningless. Now, before you say anything, don't forget, my thinking is appropriate and I will not tolerate abuse! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 16:07:19 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jim Subject: Melody Beattie Message: Jim - the book has helped people I know realize that they were in relationships where they were basically taking care of the other person while ignoring their own needs. If you have never been in a relationship like this, it may be hard for you to understand or relate to the book, or imagine that you might be in a situation where you felt that your own thoughts or feelings didn't matter. I am not saying that the book is good for everyone, because (hopefully) everyone is not in that kind of relationship. The book was originally written for people who were in relationships with alcoholics or people who had other addictions, and I think it's quite helpful for people in those kinds of relationships. It's also helped people I know detach from destructive relationships (such as relationships with people who are married to someone else, etc.). I am not saying that the book is perfect, but there is some good advice in it. I have recommended it to people who are in destructive relationships because it helped me, personally, get out of a bad relationship. In fact, I think it would be a good book for premies to read. Just take the passage you quoted above and apply it to premies. (Apply it to Marolyn!) We were taught as premies to DISTRUST our own thoughts and feelings - they didn't count or matter. I did say that I didn't like the word co-dependent. It originally comes from a relationship where one of the partners is an alcoholic (or other kind of addict). It does make sense there, because some people that are married to alcoholics develop certain behaviour patterns that kind of mirror the alcoholic spouses pattern (thus the person is 'co-dependent' on alcohol). Often these people will continue these patterns (caretaking, not taking care of ones own needs) AFTER their spouse sobers up. But I don't like the word when used for other kinds of relationships, because it is too easily taken to mean 'mutual dependency', when that's NOT what it's supposed to mean. That's all for now. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:22:24 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Melody Beattie Message: Dear Jim, Do you believe in any kind of self growth or improvement? I am not slamming you I just want to know. I don't remember what was in that book and the quote I see here is a bit 'Jack Handy' but I think when I first read it it was news to me. Something I hadn't considered for myself before that point. Thank god I have come a long way since then baby! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:44:58 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Melody Beattie Message: Robyn, I'm not sure what I believe really. I do have an aversion to the self-help field although no doubt there are some kernels of real food in all that sugar, fat and packaging. Like the concept of 'self-esteem'. That's valuable although the way it's bounced around is often a joke. That's what I think anyway. Did we understand that people thrive when they feel good about themselves before? Probably, but maybe we as a culture have refined our awareness -- or at least our language -- in the area over time. I do think that most of the self-help 'industry' is based on shameless exploitation of peoples' hopes and fears. I remember getting into Nathaniel Branden at one point, thinking that he had something real to say. But I get the impression that he, too, just made a point of setting up a mini wisdom dealership when he got the chance. As far as Beattie goes, I can't think of excusing her presumptuousness. Not to mention the fact that I think she's wrong about how we get and how we should deal with our life experiences. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:04:33 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Jim Subject: Self growth Message: Dear Jim, I have read self help books, not for years now. Maybe that is because I was at such a low point as far as my self esteem then that I needed to hear basic and simple messages. As I've said this forum has been a huge help to me in this areana and that is because it keeps me thinking and aware. The way I work on self improvement now is mostly to think and rethink and to ask that life force I relate to for help, lessons, and healing. It is so simple but seems to work for me. My chanelling friend told me a simple thing many times but finally, I guess when I was ready to incorporate it, it sunk in, that we don't have to know why things are the way they are all the time but just have a desire to heal. I knew a lot of why things about me where the way they were but couldn't make that next step to change them. I, as a gemini?, always wanted to 'figure' out 'why'. I remember going to my first therapist and her telling me I could recount horrible experiences I'd lived through without emotion. I was all from the neck up, not feeling those experiences. That was how I survived as a child but as many self help advocates say those survival techniques help us as children but become inappropriate patterns in our adult lives. My 2nd and only other therapist I went to told me at some point that I had already done all the work I needed to do to effect a change in my relationship with my mother and it was only a matter of time before it became manifest in my life. I think I've posted this before but that statement was incoherent to me. I couldn't fathom it's meaning until it did manifest in my life and then I KNEW it had. Hope this clarifies my position for you a bit, Jim. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 16:12:32 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Self growth Message: Robyn, Astrology's been thoroughly debunked. Cruise over to some of the skeptic pages, there might be some articles on the subject in the on-line editions of the Skeptical Inquirer or Skeptic magazine. Good, controlled studies of some of the 'leading lights' in the field have shown that they're completely unable to match up natal charts with personalities or anything of the sort. I used to really like astrology. Why not? It was so romantic, engaging and, for a quadruple Scorpio like myself, ahem, flattering. I'm not saying I'm happy to know it's all fake. That was bad news. But I am glad that I'm not feeding my illusions in that regard any longer. On the other hand, I completely believe in channelling..... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:45:25 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Self growth Message: Jim & Robyn: Katie should be able to verify this, but the only people who engage in 'self help' or read new age books in the Greater DC area are the Clintons, and they're from out of town. I take that back. There are some pretty 'interesting' people in the edge cities around Tyson's Corner. But that place is sort of like a post-industrial weed patch. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 20:24:12 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Self growth Message: Watch it pal - you are skating on thin ice there! My whole family lives in that post-industrial weed patch (which is sort of a good description of it, but still insulting...). I happen to know the actual name of your home town - you don't want THAT plastered all over the internet, do you? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 00:43:27 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: Quadruple Scorpio Message: Jim, What is a quadruple Scorpio? Does that have something to do with your birthdate or something? VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:49:46 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Melody Beattie Message: Jim: All relationships are codependent and it's extremely confusing and debilitating to set up one more bullshit ideal for people to get excited about and then flustered when their own lives seem to fall short. I really like the realism of what you said here. By virtue of the human condition we are co-dependent. The goal is to make the best of it, and to that end the 'rule of law' has probably done the most. The institutions of democracy, in which leadership is chosen between elite groups by those governed, probably ranks second. Odd that these are both man-made institutions. But 'compete independence' is not only an impossible ideal, but conceptually and philosophically impossible as an end state. An entity that is completely independent could not gain any purchase, and could therefore not go anywhere or do anything, not even 'spiritually.' Complete independence would be practically equivalent to complete helplessness or total bondage (except that Brownian motion would at least allow you to drift). -Scott PS: Is a 'Melody Beattle' a Cicada, or is that a 'Percussion Beattle'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 13:44:12 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Scott T. Subject: co-dependence Message: Hi Scott - Co-dependence is a lousy word because it sounds like it is supposed to mean mutual dependence. Now it's been so overused that it is meaningless to me. It originally was supposed to apply to someone who was in a relationship with another person who was dependent on something - alcohol for example. A lot of people in the 12-Step movement use it in that way, and the 12-Step movement was part of the basis for the book 'Codependent No More'. (Melody Beattie is a recovering alcoholic and drug addict, and I believe that she was married to an alcoholic after her own recovery.) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 00:50:40 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: co-dependence Message: Katie, My mother-in-law is very co-dependent. Her sister gave her that book,'Co-dependent No More' as a birthday gift! Can you imagine? She was furious and kept asking us if we thought she was co-dependent. Luckily, at the time, we could answer very honestly that we didn't know what that meant. (Today I would have to shout, 'HELL YES!' before retreating to the study.) This thread just reminded me of that story. How'd you like to receive that as a birthday gift? Sheesh... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:18:05 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.cm To: Katie Subject: Melody Beattie Message: Dear Katie, I read that book years ago also and it helped me a lot. Never read any of her others though. Carol, Forgot to mention in any of these posts to this thread that I've made that I am so happy to see you still here this morning! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:00:24 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Dear Carol, Both those quotes spoke to me. I always think I don't have time for joy or peace, quite time, not just now as I am working way to much but always. There are always many things to do and many ways to avoid personal time and attention. This forum has been a huge help to me in keeping something for myself. The forum itself as well as the thoughts it provokes in my time away from a computer. I also feel strongly about the 2nd quote, I have copied and pasted them and will print them to keep, thanks. There was an old thread about being thankful for past bad experiences and or abuses because of where they brought us to and I think this quote states the point perfectly. We were not happy bad things happened to us but for the unique (to each of us) lessons we learned and growth that occured because of them. Your first post was also interesting and I hope you find some people you've 'lost' and also that you grow stronger in your post premie life. Welcome. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:20:08 (EST)
From: carol Email: coopmtncarol@hotmail.com To: Robyn Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Thankyou Robyn, I don't think I'll be hanging around here much. Just look in from time to time. It feels a bit like a mostly male club that I'm not angry or bitter or sarcastic or confrontational enough to be in. I don't care for conflict and argument much. I don't think it serves us to go that route for healing. My best wishes to you and all. Feel free to E-mail me privately. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:35:13 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Carol, I wish you would reconsider. Maybe the forum needs a 'kinder, gentler' element to temper the male trumpetings (myself included). I thought your 1st post was very moving. Whatever you decide, you've already made a valuable contribution. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:53:49 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gerry Subject: CONFRONTATION Message: Dear Gerry and Carol, I was going to say more on the same note, Carol, in an email. I have been very non-confrontational and feel I have sacrificed myself in some cases, like your first agreeing with Jim. I have seen the CONFRONTATION here to be a good work place for myself. It is safe in that you can not read or respond but it has hit me so hard sometimes that I know it is an area, for me, that needs work. I explained that to the guys here and they were supportive. It has really helped me just start to deal with this issue, the forum has been invaluable for me in that regard in other areas of my self awarness and growth as well. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:13:08 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Hi Carol again, I'm not surprised that you'd say that. I wonder, though, why did you post those quotes and invite feedback? This well might be the last contact you and I ever have in this great, big world. In your first post, you said: I don't want to want to appear critical or unaccepting by announcing to anyone that I think the person they worship is just a man and that knowledge is not the only way. I also believe that Maharaji believes in himself and what he is doing. I also know that I could be wrong and I'm taking some risk to disbelieve. I would enjoy open discussion without judgements on either side, and I've found some of that at the Forum. Everyone must find their own way. It strikes me that you've got a real reluctance to engage in honest discussion and I wonder why you want to restrict yourself so much. For example, you say you don't want to appear critical or unaccepting of Maharaji to a believing premie. So what? You want to deceive them? It's one way or the other, Carol. You also say you believe Maharaji's sincere. Well, maybe he is. Then again, maybe he isn't. Wouldn't you like to know one way or the other? And if you can't know, wouldn't you at least like to know as best you can? You then say you welcome 'open discussion without judgements'. I'm sorry, I don't know what that means. And -- I'll be blunt with you -- I don't think you do either. Why? Why do I say that? Because it's not as if I haven't heard such talk before. I, too, was a card-carrying new ager once. I know the jargon, the prejudices, the conceits. Been there, believe me. There is no such thing as an open discussion without judgement. That's like having math problems with no answers -- can't be done. Moreover, why in the world would you ever want that state? Like as if there's something wrong with using your mind. I'm sorry, I see this kind of new age jargon and the thinking it shapes in people as exceedingly hypocritical and destructive. Hypocritical because, like my example of Ms. Beattie, no one lives like that. NO ONE. Destructive because anyone actually 'attaining' that state would be one sorry individual. You might as well blow out part of your brain and that, Carol, is not progress. So, you've lurked here for a while and benefitted from the dialogue. We've hashed it out as proxies for you to some extent. However, because of some silly new age teaching you're attached to you can't bring yourself to actually engage in that same dialogue. Am I wrong? Please correct me if I am. But, if I'm right, I'd have to say you're holding yourself back from being a full, thinking adult human being. Don't. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 13:54:25 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Jim Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Jim, if it's me doing the math the problems don't have answers, much of the time. I hate it with a passion. The new age crap is most certainly dishonest and hypocritical but a lot of people into that stuff do have good intentions. And yes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Still you can be really scary you know. But I'm glad you are who you are, you cut to the chase and are wonderfully expressive. If i ever needed a good defense I would certainly hire you and I'd hate to be the other guy. I was going to go with this thread into the area of asking if you could be more gentle, but then I reread what you had written and it just made too much darned sense and I decided people need to hear this about the new age hoo hoo. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:06:31 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Selena Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Thanks Selena, Thanks a lot. Say, what are you doing Friday night? Just kidding, Laurie. Besides, what are you doing reading this page? This was my cult. Go get your own. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 20:06:34 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Selena Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Selena: Whenever I get a math problem with no answer I get an overwhelming urge to take a nap. Sometimes it's like heroin and I go into an uncontrollable nod. I may be developing a dependency here. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:55:50 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: carol Subject: 1st post-new here, responses Message: Carol: I can get a note from Betty Friedan if that would help. She's really cute in person. When she was trying to get in shape for an Outward Bound adventure she says she went jogging in Central Park in her hiking boots, only she called it 'schlogging.' -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 21:56:33 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Carol Subject: 1st post and response to David Message: Hi, Carol. Have you put this in a Journey's entry? That is a part of the site where people tell their experiences with Maharaji. It is more permanently available to others and some of your old friends might see it there and look you up! You could also put your name in the white pages as that is another place people are looking for one another. Just thought I'd mention that if you didn't already know about it. I was really struck when I read, in your story above,that someone had suggested you give up your son for others to raise! Aren't you glad you didn't take that suggestion? Have a good evening. Nice hearing from you. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:01:55 (EST)
From: Sir David Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Carol Subject: 1st post and response to David Message: I'd like to respond with a longer post than this and will do tomorrow. It's very late now over here. Sounds like you have realised much and are becoming free of any imposed restictions. I'm very busy at present with business and children so if I don't post tomorrow, I'll email you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:10:31 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Carol Subject: Meditation and forgiveness Message: Hi Carol - I liked your post very much, and I hope that you will make it into a Journeys entry. I was especially struck by: I am becoming free, I hope, of the notion that I am not living up to my promise as a premie and not practicing knowledge the way I was instructed and not experiencing all that I am meant to. I have compassion for those, including myself that have difficulty practicing any meditation in the way that feels right without the feeling sometimes that I'm supposed to do something different. I, too, had a lot of problems meditating the way I was taught in the knowledge session. (I practiced knowledge from 1972-77 - I was 16 years old when I recieved K.) In fact, I cannot remember EVER really experiencing much during meditation. I used to sit there for an hour every morning and an hour every night and worry and agonize about whether I was doing it right. Needless to say, I started skipping meditation - because who wants to go through an hour of anxiety every night and every morning? I felt horribly guilty about this too. When I went to satsang, I just felt like I was a bad premie and that all the other premies were meditating two hours a day and I was not. When I decided to leave Maharaji's organization, it was the biggest relief for me I felt like I'd been let out of a cage of guilt. Well since then, I have found out that that a lot of premies had problems meditating and were afraid to admit it, just like me. I have also learned some methods for relaxing myself that would have REALLY helped me calm down enough to meditate using the techniques. However, I don't think that the techniques are the right kind of meditation for me. I have had much better experiences with just visualizing colors or light. I'm convinced that there is not ONE type of spiritual practice that is right for everyone - it's like trying to put everyone in the same size box. Also, I very much agreed with what you said about forgiveness. One of the reasons that I think forgiveness is important is because it brings detachment. If one is still angry at someone else (like Maharaji), one is still attached to him in that way. Thanks for your post, Carol. I hope you keep on posting. It's really not just a bunch of guys arguing on here. That happens, and there are people that enjoy it, but there are also other discussions that go on as well. I hope you'll stick around for those. Take care, Katie P.S. My Journey's entry, if you are interested, is under 'Katie (Mischa)' - there are two Katie's in the index. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 18:51:36 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Katie Subject: Meditation and forgiveness Message: I also never meditated 'the way I was supposed to.' My post below titled 'My Experience' (which is about to go inactive) discusses this. -Still Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 21:34:44 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Still Crazy Subject: Meditation and forgiveness Message: Hi Still - I had scanned your post before, but didn't really read the whole thing carefully. I can't believe that you felt OK about meditating LYING DOWN. I thought that was supposed to be a mortal sin in Maharaji's world (at least back in the seventies. I know that you are even allowed to LEAN AGAINST THE WALL or SIT IN A CHAIR now). Actually, I have had much better luck following my breath (I am averse to calling this meditation - I don't like the word 'meditation' at all very much any more) and doing other forms of 'going within' while lying down. I think that I would have probably experienced more with M's meditation if I felt that it was OK to lie down on my back. But, being a teenager, I was a real conformist and I would have NEVER allowed myself to meditate that way back in the olden days. I'm quite impressed that you felt it was OK to meditate in a different way than the way you were taught in the knowledge session, and also surprised that you followed M for so long when you meditated your own way (I think you mentioned this too in your post.) Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:06:04 (EST)
From: Still Crazy Email: None To: Katie Subject: Meditation and forgiveness Message: [I'm] surprised that you followed M for so long when you meditated your own way At first I was certain the experiences I had in meditation came from him. Later, when I was fairly certain they didn't, I still found his encouragement to 'practice Knowledge' to be very inspiring. I felt my experiences were 'M's Knowledge' because they were like he described them. Sometimes I felt a bit guilty about not meditating 'his way.' But when I did it my way, I'd have the experiences that he (and many scriptures throughout history) was describing, and when I did it 'his way,' I didn't have the experiences, or at least nowhere near as strongly. Therefore, I could see no point in discarding something that let me experience 'God within' in favor of something that didn't. Also, I realized pretty early on that M was a politician, and had to say stuff to many different people at the same time. Much of what he said just wasn't relevant to me or my life. The only way I could continue to follow him was to use what I found valuable and attempt to disregard the rest. His rigidity in meditational practice was just one of the things I disregarded. -Still Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:37:41 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Katie Subject: Meditation and forgiveness Message: Katie, I'm getting a bit more attracted to this place as I actually communicate. It is hard to find people who want to communicate at any deep level or even about the subject of religion or spirituality. I will look up your Jouneys entry and put one in eventually. I have to budget my time so I can have a life off the net, too and I don't type fast. Today it's hot out and I went out to try to clip the wool off my two llamas. They do not like such close proximity and tried to kick and get away so I only did part of each. I also have 6 chickens...that's why my e-mail address says coopmtncarol@hotmail.com and I also live on Cooper Mt. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 21:42:21 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: Carol Subject: Meditation and forgiveness Message: Hi Carol - I'm glad that you feel OK about the communication on the forum. I understand completely about budgeting the time that you are on the net - it can be very addicting. It sounds like you have a lot of other interesting stuff to do besides posting on the forum, too. I really like llamas - the last two places my husband and I lived before we moved to the midwest were Virginia and Colorado, and there were farms with llamas in both places. In Virginia, a lot of people in the western mountains used llamas as a substitute for sheepdogs - apparently they scared the coyotes away and protected the sheep better than dogs did. And in Colorado, we lived near a place where they kept llamas for pack trips into the Rockies. The Park Service in Colorado used llamas for clean-up trips on at least one of Colorado's high (14,000 foot) peaks. (You may know all this, but just thought I'd mention it!) Take care, Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:34:59 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Carol Subject: Meditation and forgiveness Message: Dear Carol, I use to work in a zoo and the llamas were quite friendly, in the petting zoo section for children although they did 'spit' at people on occasion. We had a camel too that spit on my premie boyfriend at the time I worked there. I LAUGHED, he did not. Why do you have them? Do you use their 'wool'? Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 15:58:18 (EST)
From: Carol Email: None To: Robyn Subject: LLamas Message: Robyn, Mostly, I just like them. They have distint personalities and are curious and intelligent, and while trainable, they remain sort of independent and wild. I love to watch them play and chase with eachother. They are brothers. They weren't very expensive compared to females or special breeders. They aren't perfect, one has tipped ears considered undesireable by breeders. They have pretty nice wool. I was just doing their first shearing with scissors. I couldn't finish it yet. They don't like it and I got blisters. I may learn to spin the wool from a friend. We also hope to use them to pack on camping trips. Carol Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:29:56 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: Katie Message: Dear Katie, I would be interested in hearing about your relaxation techniques, here or email. As you know, I'm sure, I do still meditate but would be open to trying what you have found that works for you. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 17:33:07 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Robyn Subject: Relaxation Message: My relaxation techniques are really pretty simple, Robyn. Do you know that exercise (it is sometimes taught in Yoga classes) where you relax each muscle in your body, starting at your toes and moving up through your body? You just tell each muscle to relax, and it usually does (especially if you breathe deeply). I used to do that exercise a lot, and now I can do it really fast, without having to go through each individual part of my body. I am often wound pretty tightly so I have to remember to relax, but once I do, it's pretty easy for me (IF I am alone and in a pretty safe place). I have trouble with unwanted thoughts, like thinking about bad stuff or worrying about some problem. I don't watch the news or read the paper at night because this just increases my tendency to obsess over this stuff. (I read a couple of national news magazines once a week to keep up!) If I am having some really bad thoughts that I can't get rid of, I visualize colors. I am very visually oriented, so this is easy for me to do. I used to have a visualization tape where the person had you go through each color in the spectrum in turn. Now I just kind of focus, and go through the whole spectrum really fast, and a certain color will come into my head and sort of fill my whole consciousness. This usually takes away the bad thoughts. I also visualize white light when something is really bad (I saw white light in the knowledge session when the mahatma touched my eyes, never saw it in light meditation thereafter, but it was unforgettable.) I'm not sure if I explained this well, so please ask questions if something doesn't make sense. Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 20:10:42 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Katie Subject: Relaxation Message: Dear Katie, I forgot about that muscle thing. I never had the patience for it but it is good to hear it gets more streamlined over time with practice. Don't think that is for me now with this hectic shedule though. The color thing interested me because my chanelling friend told me, when I asked what I could do for a friend who lost his wife. She told me to project white, gold and blue toward him. I was in college and couldn't get away before going to the funeral. I felt like I needed to connect to people who knew her and it was hard not being able to go there. I tried the color projection but nothing really happened. Just as I headed out to go to the funeral a Journey song came on the radio, I'm not sure of the name, Seperate Ways, maybe. It put me over the edge and I sobbed the whole way and did the color projection. When I was about 3-5 miles from the funeral home those colors took on a vibrancy and a 3 dementality and snapped around a portrait like pose of the husband and their 3 kids and pulsed like a heart beat! Thanks for the info. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:10:52 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: to David re Bobby Message: While I'm here I might as well deal with this from a post of David's below: A problem arises when people try to force other people to see the world as they see it. That forcing is very different from merely relating to others how one has experienced things. The latter is all you've ever done on this forum and I don't think you deserved any of the rather opinionated posts from Jim Heller in the past. So what if Jim sees things differently? His version of reality is only that - his version. He had no need to try to ram it down your throat. After all, you weren't guilty of doing such a thing to others. Any of you who were around and read my exchanges with Bobby should recall things differently. Bobby posted some very ... well, I'll call them 'proud' posts about his spiritual awareness and his rare and courageous ability to examine himself unflinchingly. He explained how, unlike the masses who are swept along in the murky river of worldliness, he was a true seeker, willing and able to test his precepts without compromise. He also kept referring to a so-called Near Death Experience which gave him this vision. What really got me, though, was his new-age apologies for Maharaji. I won't go into them at length (indeed I'd have to fish them out, I barely remember them) but they were classic arguments about Maharaji being whoever you want him to be, or blaming the victims not the perpetrator, that kind of stuff. I don't think spirituality's anything more than a shell game and I certainly don't like new-age defences of Maharaji. The man's accountable and Bobby was offering a ton of reasons why he thought otherwise. As far as NDE's go, hell, who knows? I personally find the studies done by Blackmore et al. to be fairly good arguments against believing in such things. But hey, that's just me, right? So, anyway, I challenged Bobby on everything. Why not? He was coming on to the forum criticizing others for trying to hold Maharaji accountable and pontificating wildly in the process. I asked Bobby if he was familiar with some of the studies countering the NDE belief. He just slagged all the scientists doing the work. Then (or before, who can remember?), when I discussed other matters with him he avoided and evaded everything I said to him. I got pissed off (yes, Paula, if you're reading this -- I guess I'm just a pathetic, middle-aged Don Quixote stuck as I am in plain old 'reality' unlike your fancy social science heroes.) I figured that it was the height of hypocrisy for someone to boast as Bobby did about his extremely low tolerance for bullshit in himself and others and then see him avoid any question or comment that challenged his way of thinking. Bobby didn't like being challenged. We know that. In fact he posted some disgusting posts afterwards under a pseudonym and that was the last we heard of him. So, David, as far as shoving MY version or reality down anyone's throat, all I can say is this. Yes, I do and will continue to expect people discussing things to do so rationally. If you think that's onerous so be it. Just don't bother explaining why that might be because, as we all know, that would just be 'playing my little game'. As for Buddha, don't you guys get the point? Isn't it simply this -- if some central part of Buddha's teaching was so utterly wrong as his pre-scientific superstitious take on women, then doesn't that call into question his very authority altogether? If that same axe smarts as it falls on other religions is that an excuse to put away the axe or is it, as I think it is, a reason to reconsider ALL the so-called spiritual authorities? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:37:59 (EST)
From: bobby Email: None To: Jim Subject: the lying snake returneth Message: As usual your post is riddled with self-serving egotistical blather. You lie, slander and twist everything to your personal vendettas. Get lost creep. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:10:45 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Rick and bobby Subject: the lying snake returneth Message: Maybe I'm missing something here since I'm new, but why is Jim a 'lowlife'? For having an opinion, or daring to express it? If you are Bobby M---who has an Awakening website, maybe you hit your head harder than you think. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 16:05:47 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Gerry Subject: the lying snake returneth Message: >Maybe I'm missing something here since I'm new, but why is Jim a 'lowlife'? You answered most of your own question. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 17:04:22 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: CD Subject: the lying snake returneth Message: I've read a lot of archived posts and still can't see how Jim is a lowlife. I'm no Einstein, so maybe you could explain to me how I already answered my own question by merely asking it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 17:19:52 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Gerry Subject: the lying snake returneth Message: Since I answered my own question before, I might as well answer my own post. I've been reading more archives and I get it now: CD is a premie. Duh! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 17:54:29 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Gerry Subject: the lying snake returneth Message: Hi Gerry - You have one piece of the puzzle: (CD is a premie!) Here are some others: Rick was kidding around, but Bobby is none too fond of Jim (in other words, Bobby was NOT kidding around). Hope this helps. Glad you are on the site. I thought your post yesterday was pretty funny, by the way. It was so bad it was good, if you know what I mean. Good thing you ran into Robyn first, though! Katie Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 17:26:30 (EST)
From: spent Email: None To: Gerry Subject: karma Message: Since jimmy is not spiritually advanced in the 8 fold path to enlightenment, he is wasteing his life and will be reincarnated in the wheel of karma for unknown ages and will be in a lower life form foreverbecause he dares dismiss the buddhas shit as a shell game. Its a cold cruel world of suffering in case you dont know. And another name for lowlbife in buddha universe is WOMAN. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 18:47:36 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Gerry Subject: the lying snake returneth Message: >I've read a lot of archived posts and still can't see how Jim is a lowlife. 1. Who called Jim a 'lowlife'? Here is what Bobby actually said in referring to Jim: 'You lie, slander and twist everything to your personal vendettas.' 2. Now, if somebody did spit in your face simply because you didn't buy into their logic, you might call that person a 'lowlife'. 3. Jim only spits shielded behind an electronic barrier in the hope that his law degree skills will protect him from the consequences of his rude conduct. 4. You seem quick to jump to conclusions. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:01:06 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: CD Subject: the lying snake returneth Message: 1. Rick called Jim a lowlife and I gather he said it in jest. 2. So far, nobody's spit in my face and I can follow Jim's logic just fine, thank you. 3. We are all behind the electronic shield including you, and I believe he accepts the consequences of his 'rude behavior' unlike that toad you worship. 4. How the hell can you say anything about how I am when you don't know me at all? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 21:30:21 (EST)
From: Bobby Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Why I see Jim as a lying snake Message: Basically I agree with Chris' first three points. Gerry, you say: 2. So far, nobody's spit in my face and I can follow Jim's logic just fine, thank you. Jim has spit in my face. That's why I said what I did. Jim's post about me was loaded in a calculating way with slander and lies. I have different perspectives and experiences than Jim and he's basically called me a liar for my experiences. I don't care if someone disagrees with me. For instance, you may have had very different experiences as a premie than me and may be quite angry. Fine. I'm no longer a premie, but have no bad feelings about my experience. I've done a lot of processing about my experiences. Jim however, has demanded that I engage with him and use his 'logic' to prove what I have experienced is not false. I'm not interested in trying to 'prove' anything to Jim. What I experienced cannot be proven using Jim's logic. Many things cannot be proven. Prove that you were ever in love. Can't do it? Your love didn't exist. It was merely a chemical reaction, explainable by evolutionary psychology. You are meaningless. Jim has repeatedly called me stupid, 'new age' and much more. Jim has disrespected me and has virtually spit in my face. I have my limits. 3. We are all behind the electronic shield including you, and I believe he accepts the consequences of his 'rude behavior' unlike that toad you worship. As far as I'm concerned, Jim has not accepted the consequences of his behavior. He knows what he's doing with his arrogant and manipulative words. I don't have time for his bullshit so I don't want to engage him in word battles. He keeps coming at me with his loaded invective. What I'd like to do is meet him fair and square and settle our differences in person. I've told him that on a number of occasions but he never answers. He wouldn't get away with what he says to me sitting behind his computer I can tell you that. I'm usually very tolerant. However, I don't like abusive behavior in any form whether directed at me or at others and sometimes take the opportunity to speak out about it. Plenty of folks here have been the targets of Jim's abuse and I don't like it. Frankly it disturbs me to see others sit idly by and just let Jim rant. 'Oh,' they say, 'that's just Jim.' Kinda like Uncle John and his KKK activities. 'Oh, that's just the way Uncle John is, he just gets a little steamed up now and then.' Jim lies when he says he just wants 'fair argument'. He enjoys seeing others react to his abusive behaviors. He is arrogant and disrespectful of basic human honor and should be called on it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 21:52:42 (EST)
From: bobby Email: None To: All Subject: that being said..... Message: .....now that I said what I needed to say about Jim I think I'll go away again for awhile. I don't like this feeling of getting all riled up. Life's too short! Too many other more impotant things to do! I'm really disappointed that there's not more opportunity here to freely speak one's heart and mind. I like talking about my experiences and I like hearing the experiences of others. However I don't like the attacks. I only get on Jim because he's an arrogant son-of-a-bitch and he gets in my face. He won't admit it though. Nor will he apologize. However, when it comes down to it I really wouldn't want to hurt him. Bye. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 00:37:40 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: bobby Subject: that being said..... Message: Perhaps just post under that other name. You were saying things under the other name. I printed one of your recent posts that youposted under another name and I wanted to dicuss it but didnt because you posted as someone else and I figured you did that to avoid the relationships 'bobby' had going on the past and you wanted something different. I thought that was a good way to get a clean slate. 'bobby' has history and relationships on the forum from the old days and well, I like you as bobby but if you want, nothing wrong with another name. And clean slate. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:14:53 (EST)
From: What is bobby's other Email: None To: bill Subject: name Who is mona lisa Message: I'm really confused. Mona, don't send Katie those dirty diaper stories by email...haha! Sorry, private joke. I needed a joke today. Seriously, is bobby confusing us with another name? VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:25:34 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: VP Subject: baby poop Message: VP - I cannot believe you made this post. I just wrote an e-mail to Robyn about people discussing baby poop! I'll have to send you a copy. You must be telepathic. P.S. Diaper stories are OK if they involve the Ganges. Makes them a bit more interesting. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:30:46 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Katie Subject: baby poop Message: I am telepathic. (No, it was in reference to an email that you wrote a long time ago, remember?) I'm about to leave and I won't be home until later tonight, but I will be answering your email message then. Take Care :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:40:19 (EST)
From: Katie Email: None To: VP Subject: baby poop Message: Hi VP - I know that I told you the story, I was just amazed that we were both writing about it at the same time. After all, how many times a day does a person without small children (me) think about baby poop? Isn't this a great thread topic, BTW? Brian will probably delete these posts - sheesh.... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 22:47:08 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Gerry Subject: why how you are Message: >4. How the hell can you say anything about how I am when you don't know me at all? In this space you are what you write. Cheers, CD swam across the ganges in 72 Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 00:49:03 (EST)
From: mona lisa Email: None To: CD Subject: why how you are Message: I washed my child's dysentery fouled blankets in the ganges in 1972! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 15:31:08 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: mona lisa Subject: been a while Message: >I washed my child's dysentery fouled blankets in the ganges in 1972! You did have an important job to do and you apparently did it. Though I got sick swimming across the Ganges to the shore on the other side from Prem Nagar, it turned out to have unexpected good consequences down the road. I also had a bit of a rush from accomplishing the small feat. I blame no one for the swim and getting sick. I am glad that I had the nerve to do it and made the effort. I am still happy that I got the chance to go to that K session in London back in 1972! So how is your kid these days? Its been a while - g! Regards, CD Its Here Now, Tales and The Human Spirit Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 22:30:49 (EST)
From: Nigel Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk To: CD Subject: Flap flap Message: Hi CD, Just accidentally clicked on 'It's here now, tales and the human spiritual book business.' Jonathon Livingstone Seagull, eh? Now there's a book to be reckoned with... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sun, May 03, 1998 at 01:04:40 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Nigel Subject: Flap flap Message: >Jonathon Livingstone Seagull, eh? Now there's a book to be reckoned with... Le Petit Prince - Just for you Nigel! Pedants may find the book scientifically ridiculous; serious readers will find it erudite. CD Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:56:16 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: CD Subject: why how you are Message: CD, Sorry about the 'toad' remark. No one could have dissuaded me from my belief in GM when I was caught up in it in the early seventies. I had to figure it out for myself. I did, and so did thousands of others, in fact the vast majority of people who were premies saw through the deception and greed. I think that speaks for itself. I am not personally bitter or angry, as I was young and able to bounce back quickly. Also, I certainly didn't have the years invested into it that others did. I do wish I could have my Fender guitar back, though. I feel confident that some one of your obvious intelligence (see, I have been reading the archives) will soon conclude that the experience is yours, it comes from you, and you are that, without needing the harmful influence of this man. Namaste, Gerry Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 15:15:17 (EST)
From: CD Email: None To: Gerry Subject: why how you are Message: >Sorry about the 'toad' remark. No problem. > I do wish I could have my Fender guitar back, though. Now whats the problem? Fenders are usually cheap. I lost a Martin and a Rickenbacher 12 string. And somebody stole my Les Paul Jr double cutaway. I did regain a M36 a few years back and bought a reissue Les Paul Jr. to join my Les Paul Studio sitting in their guitar stands resting. I will let you know how the events in Miami and London feel. Cheers, CD www.cdickey.com Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:09:26 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: CD Subject: why how you are Message: CD, Just reread my own post. I sure can be a pontificating asshole at times. You do what you want--you certainly don't need any advice from me. Yeah, Fenders are cheap, this was a Mustang-no big deal-last I saw it some guy was playing at an event in Philadelphia in 1973. I sold a pretty nice Martin D35 which I purchased new in 1975 for (gulp) $514. Couldn't afford a new one ten years later so I made one, which led to a new hobby for me. I've made several instruments since then--nothing too fancy, but they all seemed to sound and play good, which is what it's all about, (musically) for me. Now if I could only learn to play... Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:19:36 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Gerry Subject: Toads aren't so bad Message: Gerry, Look, I wouldn't worry too much about the toad remark. He's been called worse. I think the toads might be upset. At least you didn't call him the great pumpkin. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:44:25 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: VP Subject: Toads aren't so bad Message: Thanks, VP, I laughed out loud. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 18:37:32 (EST)
From: Rick Email: None To: Jim Subject: you low-life Message: Sorry, couldn't resist. What does 'spirituality is a shell game' mean? Do you mean spiritual movements and religions, in general, or do you mean the actual notion that there may be an intelligent 'being' who created 'everything'? Do you mean you consider the notion that an 'other-worldly' experience can be connected to that 'being', or even a 'force', false? How do you understand that 'something' always existed? How did it get there? Where did it come from? How do you 'grok' this shit? Will you someday go insane? Rick Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 18:53:10 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Rick Subject: call me a worm, I like that Message: Rick, All I really meant to say was that I agree with Bobby. Funny how words can get so twisted, huh? That god-damned rational mind, I guess. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 21:48:58 (EST)
From: Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: to David re Bobby Message: Hell, what do I know? It's very late and I've just got in and about to go to bed. I only have vague memories of your conflict with Bobby but I just thought it looked a bit messy. You did seem to give him a bit of a hard time but then that was just my impression from reading a few of the posts. I admit I didn't read them all. But anyway, I'm sure Bobby can look after himself in this place. Perhaps if a further fight ensues, I'll join in next time but I honestly don't know who's side I'll be on. I usually pick the losing side - and lose. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:14:14 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Cheeseman Subject: to David re Bobby Message: David, Your last sentence broke me up. So that's it? No fight? No nothing? And for this I came out of my week long retirement? Oy vey! I should stop lurking, serves me right. If by 'hard' you mean uncompromising, yes I gave Bobby a hard time. If you mean I was unfair with him, I'd say no, don't think so. This is a discussion group, there's no getting past that. Bobby's skittish about 'the great God of Western Culture, the Rational Mind' as he calls it and that makes discussion with him difficult. Oh sure, it's fine so long as you agree with him but what if you don't? His anti-rationality allows him to avoid conceding anything. I don't respect that. You know, it's not as if I think I know what's going on here. Maybe there really are NDE's. I just don't happen to THINK so, that's all. So can't we all just talk about these things? I mean this is a discussion group, isn't it? I mean didn't it mean anything at all to you seeing Rodney King standing there asking 'why can't we all just get along?'? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:32:41 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Jim Subject: out of retirement, Jim Message: Jim, Nice hearing from you again. I got a copy of the Lord of the Universe album last week. When several of the songs came on, I couldn't believe that I knew every word. (Lord of the Universe, There's a Light in Me, Oh, Lord we've been waiting so Long, and Spread this Knowledge) I haven't heard them in a looooong time and I was only a kid when I heard them. Anyway, I remember that you liked the album, so take a look at the Songbook thread below. I changed the words to Lord of the Universe. I thought maybe you might appreciate the new lyrics. VP Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 21:08:43 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Cheeseman Subject: to David re Bobby Message: David: I'll join in next time but I honestly don't know who's side I'll be on. I usually pick the losing side - and lose. Have you considered that you might be getting on too close to the ends of the teeter totter? -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:59:05 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Siddhartha is only a hub Message: Jim: -- if some central part of Buddha's teaching was so utterly wrong as his pre-scientific superstitious take on women, then doesn't that call into question his very authority altogether? If that same axe smarts as it falls on other religions is that an excuse to put away the axe or is it, as I think it is, a reason to reconsider ALL the so-called spiritual authorities? Yeah... and all the non-spiritual authorities too, at least prior to 1950. Jim, you're still a zealot who has simply inverted his faith transforming it into unbelief. I'm beginning to think it makes more sense to look at these guys (or gals) in terms of the era or epoch that they represent. Each succeeding epoch granted greater freedom and equality to individuals, and the 'axis age' to which Siddhartha, Socrates and Pericles belonged was an enormous shift in that direction. Probably the greatest single shift we've ever experienced in so short a time. Religionists will claim that great spiritual teachers transcend the era to which they belong, but if you look carefully they are merely out in front of the parade a little. One can interpret this as evolution or design (or both). Looking too closely at the spiritual teachers of the past is bound to reduce their stature, but you can choose instead to look at the continuity and persistence of an unfolding human scenario (which is what the term 'evolution' means, after all). It is far less dramatic than the persona of Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, but much more comforting because it doesn't have to bear all that anxiety on such a small domain. It's like the principle of geodesy, that creates enormous clear spans by efficient distribution of load bearing elements. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 21:17:22 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: Siddhartha is only a hub Message: Scott, Yes, I agree -- not about my zealotry (I know you don't mean it) but about all authorities, spiritual or secular. I don't know if you were being faceitious but I'll take you at face value. We should scrutinize all past 'teachers' and 'teachings' and, once we do, we're implicitly rejecting their authoritarian mystique. Sure, life moves on, we evolve culturally and learn from the past. But none of that embues anyone with anything like spiritual authority. You say: Looking too closely at the spiritual teachers of the past is bound to reduce their stature, but you can choose instead to look at the continuity and persistence of an unfolding human scenario (which is what the term 'evolution' means, after all). Well, Scott, the religions depend on that vulnerable stature, there's no getting away from it. How about a REAL argument for Buddha's enlightened nature irrespective of decidedly unenlightened statements? What about 'he was only fooling' or 'he had to say that because, even though he knew it was bullshit, he wanted to get an even greater message through to his followers' or, better still, 'you can't use your rational mind to discuss religion'. Those are all bullshit of course but at least they keep you on the board. I guess the greatest proof of that is that, ridiculous as they are, these are the claims religionists resort to. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 01:39:38 (EST)
From: Scott T. Email: None To: Jim Subject: Siddhartha is only a hub Message: Jim: How about a REAL argument for Buddha's enlightened nature irrespective of decidedly unenlightened statements? What about 'he was only fooling' or 'he had to say that because, even though he knew it was bullshit, he wanted to get an even greater message through to his followers' or, better still, 'you can't use your rational mind to discuss religion'. I was going to make a Hobbesian argument for authority, but decided I don't really know where it leads. Nor does anyone else, for sure. Gradually, we've been substituting 'constitutional clauses' and 'self-control' for outright authority, but in the end we probably can't afford to make 'authority' a dirty word. For their times Socrates, Buddha, Jesus and Mohammed may have spoken with some legitimate authority. As you know the term 'enlightenment' came to mean the epitome of a rational scientific approach to life, while 'counter-enlightenment' refers to a non-rational, faith centered, and intuitive approach. The fact that a counter-enlightenment exists at all testifies to the very strong possibility that rationality is either too weak, or too strong, for the real world. Poor Goldilocks just can't 'make up her mind.' I don't know if I could identify 'good' spiritual authority using only my rational capacities, but on the basis of Einstein's statement that the universe is not perverse (which one must ultimately take on faith, I guess) I ought to be able to determine what's 'not good.' Either Maharaji is not good, or the Universe is perverse. Anyway, if the Universe is perverse it at least won't make things worse to assume it's not. I trust that rationality may take me far enough that I'll be able to take the last step (leap?) with confidence... without the sense that I've betrayed my rational self, or been betrayed by it. I think that's about as real an argument as is possible. It's good enough for me, and I don't have to throw away physics and organic chemistry either. -Scott Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Sat, May 02, 1998 at 01:16:27 (EST)
From: scott, you speak with Email: None To: Scott T. Subject: more authority than buddha Message: Another great post Scott T! I think perhaps you CAN decide just using your rational capacities If I understand, or have the same definition of rational capacities as you mention. I figured that Einstien came to those views by subtle evidence he noticed in his life. In the nature of people and our ways and the nature of the design features of life. Just a guess. b Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 16:43:59 (EST)
From: Jim Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Jim's clipping service Message: Hi everyone, I said I wouldn't post but .... well, check this out: http://www.angelfire.com/sc/manavdharma/ It's a website dedicated to Satpal Maharaj (a/k/a Bal Bhagwan Ji), Maharaji's eldest brother who, in good family tradition, has carried on in the cult business. He calles his new organization Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti. Take a look at the history which explains how Shri Hans gave his mission to Satpal when he was just a squirt. Well here's THAT blurb anyway: The eldest son of Paramsant Satgurudev Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj was born on 21st September 1951, at Kankhal, in the holy town of Hardwar. His father's life was a saga of selfless service and devotion to humanity, and of tireless dedication to the ideal of awakening man's dormant spirituality by revealing the Divine Knowledge to all who sincerely asked for it. Birth into the family of an enlightened Yogi, combined with his own inherent tendencies, facilitated his spiritual development from a very early age. By the age of two he was already sitting for long periods in deep meditation, and he would encourage others to do so, too. His father once commented that his consciousness, naturally drawn inward to rest within itself, was to be coaxed outwards for the spiritual benefit of others. Growing up in a spiritual environment under the strict guidance of his father and surrounded by mahatmas and devotees, he became a master of the spiritual sciences at an early age. When he was three years old, a huge procession through the main streets of Delhi was arranged for him by his father. Thousands of devotees and interested members of the public participated. At one point, when a gigantic traffic jam prevented the forward progress of the procession, little Satpal Ji Maharaj himself stood up and gave the appropriate directions to clear the way. Even at a tender age his innate leadership and organising abilities manifested themselves. Besides the spiritual training he received at home, he went to school to acquire a formal education. From the very beginning of his school life he showed keen interest in science. Although quiet and reserved, he participated fully in curricular and extra-curricular activities such as debating and painting, for which he won prizes. Extremely practical by nature, he would not accept anything until he could verify it through objective analysis or personal experience. He is renowned for his self-discipline and fairness. Totally devoted to his own Master, he demonstrated the path of service in his own life. He never expects his disciples to do anything which he himself has not done, and he doesn't preach anything which he doesn't practice. His father passed away in July 1966, bequeathing his mission and unfinished work to his eldest son. Young Satpal Ji Maharaj took command with his characteristic zeal and efficiency, and dedicated himself to the task of fulfilling his father's dreams. He never deviated from the ideals taught by Shri Hans Ji Maharaj, no matter what the cost. His integrity and clarity of vision, his noble character and patient effort have earned him the respect of all sections of society. Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj has taken his message of inspiration and hope to the four corners of India and also abroad. Under his auspices and guidance Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti is promoting his spiritual and social work throughout India and abroad. Take a look at Satpal with HIS Mata Ji. Take a look at HIS kids. Hey, take a look at Bhole Ji (aka Bholay Ji Maharaj) in the picture gallery. Note the U.S. address for the organization: Spiritual Life Society, 751 South Branch River Rd. Somerville N.J. 08876, USA ***** By the way, here's another newspiece about the guy: Maharaj embarrasses JD leadership royally A king's ovation they gave him -- so what if it was a bit embarrassing for the rest around? On Thursday, at the Janata Dal's much-hyped sankalp rally in New Delhi, the king was not Prime Minister Inder Kumar Gujral, not Ram Vilas Paswan -- but Satpal Maharaj. Who, true to his name, behaved like a maharaj. The crowd received Maharaj carrying his portrait and shouting slogans. And, embarrassingly (for the rest of the VIPs, that is), started melting away the moment he finished his speech! The party leadership hurriedly summoned him back to the stage, as Gujral was to follow him to the mike. Luckily, the crowd too returned, shouting slogans in favour of Uttarakand. The first few minutes of Gujral's speech went completely unattended -- for besides the audience's open-eyed admiration for the royally-seated Maharaj, the mike was unadjusted. Seeing his master's predicament, Civil Aviation Minister Chand Mahal Ibrahim flew to his rescue and adjusted the mike. A satisfied Gujral went on. The next on stage was Ram Vilas Paswan. He was cheered repeatedly by dalit supporters who, like Maharaj's people, once Paswan finished his speech, started melting away. Former prime minister H D Deve Gowda, who next took the mike, came prepared -- he had his speech on a piece of paper, written neatly in Hindi, with which, in his characteristic stumbling way, he proceeded to enlighten the audience. Surprisingly, the audience liked it -- and went on to show its appreciation with loud cheers (or were those jeers?)... UNI That's all for now. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:10:08 (EST)
From: eb Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim's clipping service Message: Great work Jim. Absolutely fascinating! Hey now, didn't Bal Bhagwan Ji wear glasses? And how about that picture of him and the President? Looks like a cut/paste job to me. eb Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:15:20 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim's clipping service Message: Good work Jim. My God, when will it ever end?! He's got 3 beautiful sons, M's got 4 kids. I can see this will go on through my life time at least. I just love reading this hokey spiritual stuff, shri hans ji was born 'in the holy town of hardwar'. Interesting, no mention of his work in Houston working for his younger brother. He must have some explanation for how he came to realize that HE was the one and not Prem pal. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:53:08 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim's clipping service Message: Jim, Incredible, his photos barely resemble the man I saw in Houston, who was half the size he is now. The Guru business must be very good to him. Too bad for the kids, though, to have to live in that atmosphere. I, too believe spirituality is a shell game. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:26:48 (EST)
From: Katie Email: petkat@mail.trib.net To: Jim Subject: Hey Brian Message: Jim, this is a great site. I think we should link to it (hence the title of this post. Brian only reads posts with his name in them...) I think the most telling line is: He is renowned for his self-discipline and fairness. Totally devoted to his own Master, he demonstrated the path of service in his own life. He never expects his disciples to do anything which he himself has not done, and he doesn't preach anything which he doesn't practice. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:40:32 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Katie Subject: Hey Brian Message: like honesty not the rawat family tradition. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 13:37:39 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: bill Subject: Hey Brian Message: Is that true Brian, you only read posts with you name in them? if so I need to ask you to read the 'gurusome recycling issue' thread because you are being volunteered to help me get rid of M tapes and they are kind of icky in more than the obvious sense. Jim, thanks for that info about the site. It actually made me sad,to think so many people were so conned by thinking there was something so unique about M - satguru and all that Lord of the U stuff - and here his brother is doing the same trip 20 years later. I suppose there could be 2 perfect master lord of the universe meditation teachers. why not? There's a sucker born every minute according to PT Barnum (wast it him who said that?) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 22:03:21 (EST)
From: Brian Email: brian@ex-premie.org To: Selena Subject: Hey Salena Message: No, it's not true that I only read posts with my name in the topic. Katie miss-spoke a tad on that one. I don't read all the posts, but I always read the ones with my name in the topic in case something's on fire. As for Satpal, I want to put together a page about him and any upcoming Battle Of The Satguru's. Should be a dandy fight. But as far as linking, I don't want to rely purely on another person's page being there tomorrow. So I guess I'll just steal what I want off of it. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:38:09 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim's clipping service Message: by the age of two he was already sitting for long periods of meditation. Oh brother! I mean oh eldest brother! The kid was sleeping! This is america and an old liar deserves to have his history told truthfully somewhere on the internet. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 03:30:35 (EST)
From: Mr Ex Email: None To: Jim Subject: Punjabi bagh=ex-DLM Message: Do you want to know more about Manav Utthan Sewa Samiti and Satguru Shri Satpal Ji Maharaj? Please contact: Shri Hans Satsang Bhawan, 2/12 Punjabi Bagh, New Delhi, India. Fax: +91 11 5435778 Tel: +91 11 5100206/5437751/5102232 That was the address of old DLM/Delhi ..... I've been there! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:40:12 (EST)
From: Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Jim Subject: Jim's clipping service Message: What I don't understand is why they put those pictures on the site. They all look pretty miserable and hardly a good advert for his satguruship. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:19:05 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Cheeseman Subject: Jim's clipping service Message: At least he has a site! Of course that could be just plain old arrogance and sense of invulnerability (see, I put an 'l' in there, but it's most likely still spelled wrong) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 21:09:45 (EST)
From: Cheeseman Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Selena Subject: Satpal is main threat Message: Satpal, big, burly and looking more than a little mean will perhaps be the undoing of his little brother, Prempal. Now Satpal has come to the west he has obviously thrown down the gauntlet at the feet of his brother. THIS IS WAR. Satpal will be in no mood for a reconciliation. He wants to claim back the throne that he believes little Prempal stole from him all those years ago. How do I surmise this? Satpal doesn't have to come to the west in order to keep his guru business going. He's very popular in his own country. He's come to the west to wreak revenge upon his brither. Clearly they are in opposition. Satpal still claims that Shri Hans made HIM the satguru. We in the west will watch this little Hindu drama play itself out. It will be intruiging, though a little sad to watch. How Hinduism divides two brothers. Old Shri Hans will be shaking his head now with the sheer folly of it all. What shall we call this play; 'Clash of the Titans' or 'Much ado about Nothing'??? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 01:07:33 (EST)
From: mona lisa Email: None To: Cheeseman Subject: Satpal is main threat Message: Cain and Abel? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 01:53:46 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net To: mona lisa Subject: Satpal is main threat Message: Jacob and Esau! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 12:06:53 (EST)
From: Selena Email: None To: Mickey the Pharisee Subject: Satpal is main threat Message: Beevis and Butthead ? This may actually bring some media attention their way if they battle it out. fun!!! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 13:46:40 (EST)
From: John Email: None To: Selena Subject: Satpal asleep at the wheel Message: I'd still like to hear Satpal's explanation for why he went along with the charade of recognizing his youngest brother as the Lord of the Universe. He must have been 19,20 yrs old. certainly old enough to know whether he was actually 'the chosen one' or not. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:28:28 (EST)
From: VP Email: None To: Cheeseman Subject: Satpal is main threat Message: Either that or they are in cahoots...perish the thought! Cheesy, maybe there's more money to be made here in the west from followers than in India. At least big brother has the sense to use the power of technology to his advantage. My money is on him, until people find out that the 'rightful heir' is little brother. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 19:48:07 (EST)
From: JW Email: None To: Jim Subject: Jim's clipping service Message: God Jim. I get back after a few days and find this gem. Excellent job. And it's truly amazing to look at . How incredible that he doesn't even mention BM. He doesn't exist. There is apparently no love lost between them. I do hope Brian links this to the site. This is something everyone, especially premies, should see. How many 'masters' are there? Does it matter? And we really should do everything we can to get Satpal to comment on his brother. Apparently Satpal isn't as paranoid of being asked questions as BM is. Any indication if he is coming to the states? It just goes to demonstrate how much of a family business this trip is. What a racket. But if Satpal is going after devotees too, and if HE isn't too chicken to at least have a webpage,who has the upper hand? I would imagine there is big competition for Indian devotees in Britain and the US. Very interesting. Guru wars. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 14:26:02 (EST)
From: nower Email: None To: Everyone Subject: Sower grapes Message: You all sound like a bunch of winers. If you had just stuck to it and did yor meditation andservice you would know that guru is greeter that god becuse he showed you god also. Knowledge is real you just didnt give it time or a chance. Now you cant have bliss any more . get on your knnes and pray that the Lord , M, forgives you as I do alos think about it please Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 14:51:20 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: nower Subject: Sower grapes Message: Dear nower, I suggest you read some older posts as you have your information wrong. Many here did meditation, satsang(which you can't do now) and service untill thier fingers bled to no avail. Also many of us still continue to practice K and find it a very positive and rewarding indevour. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 15:17:58 (EST)
From: 'nower' Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Sower grapes Message: Jes' kiddin' Maybe I'm taking this all too lightly, as one who was involved in this sick cult in the early seventies. I remember my last day in the ashram in Pittsburg. While everyone was under their sheets (half of them sleeping I think), I lowered my guitar out the window, (the only worldy thing I had left) stuffed somebody else's backpack with a change of underwear, dumped my sheet and baragon in the backyard and hitched to California. Free at last! I never looked back. Sorry to read of others' misery unto suicide (as I just found out in the archives) and do aplologize for my bad 'joke'. This site is a wonderful service to anyone thinking about leaping into this trap. I do feel exceedingly fortunate to have escaped after a mere year's involvement. Not that I was anymore intelligent or perceptive than anyone else...just lucky. Gerry L Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 15:23:04 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: 'nower' Subject: Sower grapes Message: Dear Gerry, Glad to here you are here among 'your own kind' and that your post was just a joke. I am one of the 'nice' ones here, right guys, and I thought some others might tear into your spelling mistakes. I was a short timer myself. Two years into it heavily and then 5 years on the fringes. Welcome. Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 15:36:38 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: glyng@techline.com To: Robyn Subject: Sower grapes Message: Robin, Thanks, I thought maybe someone would rip me a new a--hole for my unthinking 'joke' and they would be correct in doing so. I never realized the pain and sorrow this creep has caused untold thousands all over the world, as I escaped relatively unscathed...now THAT'S what I call grace! This Forum has opened my eyes to what the real fallout was (and still is) from this massive deception foisted on the world by the big maharaj (BM for short). My apolgies to all. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 15:54:51 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gerry Subject: Sower grapes Message: Gerry, BM, I love it! Can I adopt that as my own, please! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 15:50:49 (EST)
From: Lg Email: None To: 'nower' Subject: Sower grapes Message: So you are not as ignorant as I thought after all. Still on my knees laughing. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:59:34 (EST)
From: bill Email: None To: 'nower' Subject: Over the wall Message: Hey, maybe you WERE more intellegent and perceptive. I'm willing to grant you that. You guitarist types are more carefree anyway. Right CD? Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 15:47:48 (EST)
From: Lg Email: None To: nower Subject: Sower grapes Message: Obviously, you didn't get the message. Ignorant! I'm on my knees blissed with laughter. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 16:03:02 (EST)
From: nower gerry Email: None To: Lg Subject: Sower grapes Message: Lg, Thanks, got it! Glad to see the forum has a sense of humor. New friends, Hurray! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 16:10:10 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Sower grapes Message: Re BM: It's yours, my pleasure, ma'am. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:18:26 (EST)
From: david f. Email: None To: nower Subject: Sower grapes NOT Message: dear nower: thanks for your posting. It is so revealing and says more in one message than all of us 'winers' could do in a million messages. Oh by the way, not only haven't I found god, but I didn't win that last lotto, i'm not married to a movie star (or guru for that matter), and after all these years my farts still stink--just think of my spiritual deprivation! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:39:33 (EST)
From: Gerry nower Email: None To: david f. Subject: Sower grapes NOT Message: David, Please read the entire thread and I apologize for any grief I may have caused you. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 18:43:20 (EST)
From: david f. Email: None To: Gerry nower Subject: Sower grapes NOT NOT NOT Message: gary et al: sorry i didn't read the entire thread before putting in my two cents (such is the way of cyber life, hey?). Even as a joke, it is a clear mimic of what is true for many people, thought caused me no grief. And yes, my farts still do stink! Fondly, david f. whidbey island, wa Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:22:14 (EST)
From: Sir Cheese-Cake Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: nower Subject: Sour grapes Message: Hey Nower, this is a windup, right? You can't be for real. You're just one of the ex-premies posting as a premie to get us all going, aren't you. By the way it's 'Knower' and 'whiner'. Well it is if you speak English and not that hybrid that the Americans call English! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:44:23 (EST)
From: 'Nower' Email: None To: Sir Cheese-Cake Subject: Sour grapes Message: Yeah, Dave, you're on to me. Read the whole thread and have a laugh. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:31:39 (EST)
From: Clementine Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Sir Cheese-Cake Subject: Sour grapes Message: Dear Sir Cheese-Cake, Good morning, sir. Your nick names are always so amusing and this is a new one to me. I am laughing before I ever get down to your message. VP tells me my cowboy in my foot is the 2nd funniest thing to your cheese story, of course illegitamate since it has nothing to do with BM (thanks Gerry) but now I'll want to have 'theme' nick names also. My problelm with that is I don't like country music and don't know much about cow boys, guess I'll have to consult my foot! Robyn Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:53:20 (EST)
From: Sir Cheese-Cake Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com To: Clementine Subject: Sour grapes Message: How about calling yourself 'Metatarsal' or 'Achillies'? Or even 'Sole-mate'! Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:57:26 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Sir Cheese-Cake Subject: Sour grapes Message: Dear Cake, I think on it! Thanks for another laugh. Robyn I am a gemini (6/2/55 since I didn't read all those birthday posts until they were inactive) so I feel like I am already 2 people but this could be fun. Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:15:21 (EST)
From: Gerry Email: None To: Robyn Subject: Sour grapes Message: Robyn, Maybe my 'other' could get together with your 'other'' in the decorating business. (6-4-53) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |
Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:50:55 (EST)
From: Robyn Email: sundogs@hotmail.com To: Gerry Subject: Gemini Message: Dear Gerry, I love it! Maybe they could work while we sleep, better yet! I've posted here before that when I was a premie in NJ there was a slew of us whose birthdays went from May 23rd, I think, to June 3rd or 6th. One year we had a hell of a good party. Robyn Nice that your a bit older than me to :) Return to Index -:- Top of Index |