Ex-Premie.Org

Forum III Archive # 5

From: Apr 23, 1998

To: May 5, 1998

Page: 4 Of: 5



Jean-Michel -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:44:40 (EST)
__Katie -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:09:27 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:36:39 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:26:31 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:43:26 (EST)
__Lg -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 14:01:43 (EST)
__Scott T. -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 14:19:11 (EST)
____bobby -:- Jacques Sandoz -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 14:40:26 (EST)
______bill -:- Jacques Sandoz -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:15:10 (EST)
____Paul -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:29:38 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:59:28 (EST)
______Selena -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 20:12:16 (EST)
________Still Crazy -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:02:52 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Pissed off/EV/ Long Beach -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 14:07:45 (EST)
____________Still Crazy -:- Long Beach -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 19:59:29 (EST)
__bill -:- Pissed off with rawat -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:12:47 (EST)
__VP -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:18:03 (EST)
__Jim -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:27:27 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- Jim:Pissed off with EV -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 18:24:24 (EST)
__Still Crazy -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:55:49 (EST)
____bill -:- patsy cline -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:21:12 (EST)
______Still Crazy -:- patsy cline -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:31:27 (EST)
________KnowItAll -:- patsy cline -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:40:03 (EST)
__________Katie -:- patsy, willie, and paul s. -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 14:49:59 (EST)
____________DontKnowItAll -:- patsy, willie, and paul s. -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:04:25 (EST)
______________Still Crazy -:- patsy, willie, and paul s. -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 18:48:06 (EST)
______VP -:- patsy cline -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:37:57 (EST)
____Scott T. -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 07:15:14 (EST)
__Nigel -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:03:02 (EST)
__Bill Cooper -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 03:43:35 (EST)
____Gerry -:- Pissed off with EV -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:31:17 (EST)
____Jean-Michel -:- BM a victim -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 14:53:49 (EST)
______Gerry -:- BM a victim -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:55:37 (EST)
________Robyn -:- BM a victim -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 20:19:40 (EST)
__________Gerry -:- BM a victim -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 20:45:27 (EST)

Take a hike Ladies, -:- It's a mans spiritual world. -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 22:52:48 (EST)
__Brian -:- You're a brave man, bb -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 00:15:24 (EST)
__gumby -:- It's a mans spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 01:33:08 (EST)
____pokey -:- It's gumbys world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 07:17:17 (EST)
__Paula -:- It's a mans spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 02:48:48 (EST)
____billdhs -:- amazon heaven -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 07:13:49 (EST)
____Katie -:- It's a mans world -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 10:53:03 (EST)
______billdha -:- It aint a world of suffering -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:31:30 (EST)
________Katie -:- It aint a world of suffering -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:19:23 (EST)
__________bill -:- It aint a website of pretense -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:43:19 (EST)
____________Katie -:- It aint a website of pretense -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:57:04 (EST)
____________Robyn -:- It aint a website of pretense -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:04:53 (EST)
__________Cheddar -:- THE noble truth -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 01:01:08 (EST)
__________Paula -:- It aint a world of suffering -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 01:03:39 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Paul/Paula -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:01:04 (EST)
__________John -:- Paul/Paula -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 13:56:44 (EST)
____________Robert -:- Paul/Paula -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:49:01 (EST)
______________John -:- Agnes Eve -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:11:40 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- Agnes Eve -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:20:22 (EST)
________________Katie -:- John's middle name -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 13:49:03 (EST)
__________________Robyn -:- John's middle name -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 14:47:06 (EST)
________Paula -:- It aint a world of suffering -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 01:21:11 (EST)
__Robyn -:- It's a mans spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 08:35:06 (EST)
____Still Crazy -:- It's a mans spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 19:16:52 (EST)
______Mickey the Pharisee -:- It's a mans spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:35:19 (EST)
________Katie -:- It's a mans spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:10:42 (EST)
__________Jim -:- It's a mans spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:31:50 (EST)
____________Katie -:- It's a mans spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:44:29 (EST)
______________Jim -:- It's a mans spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:56:53 (EST)
________________Katie -:- It's Jim's spiritual world. -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:11:02 (EST)
__________________Jim -:- It's Jim's spiritual world. -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:32:17 (EST)
____________________Katie -:- It's Jim's spiritual world. -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:31:38 (EST)
______________________Jim -:- It's Jim's spiritual world. -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:55:14 (EST)
________________________Katie -:- It's Jim's spiritual world. -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 16:11:41 (EST)
______fuddha -:- It's a small world after all -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:43:47 (EST)
________Jim -:- Here, here, Burke, old chap -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:03:37 (EST)
__________bill -:- Jim Dawkins -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:47:33 (EST)
____________Katie -:- Jim Dawkins -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:15:26 (EST)
______________Jim -:- Jim Dawkins -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:27:44 (EST)
________________Nigel -:- Jim Dawkins -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 19:39:33 (EST)
________Still Crazy -:- It's a small world after all -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:24:24 (EST)
__________bb -:- It's a wild world after all -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 01:28:24 (EST)
__VP -:- Disavow your feminine side -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 08:44:56 (EST)
__bobby -:- billdada buddha bias -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:52:32 (EST)
__bobby -:- Sexist Milarepa quote -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 10:41:11 (EST)
____Anon -:- More spiritual concepts -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 11:24:17 (EST)
____Joy -:- Sexism in Buddhism -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:11:12 (EST)
______bobby -:- Sexism in Buddhism -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:30:23 (EST)
________bill -:- Sexism in Bed hism -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:35:06 (EST)
______david f. -:- Sexism in Buddhism -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:04:29 (EST)
________Katie -:- Sexism in Buddhism -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:37:18 (EST)
________Robyn -:- Sexism in Buddhism -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:41:32 (EST)
______bb -:- Sexy Buddi -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:24:03 (EST)
____You came back from the -:- dead but not to be imprisoned -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:13:37 (EST)
__Katie -:- It's womens spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:57:12 (EST)
____Sir David -:- It's a load of old tosh -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 21:25:47 (EST)
______Robyn -:- old toad fish! -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:29:05 (EST)
____VP -:- It's womens spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 21:42:55 (EST)
____Still Crazy -:- It's womens spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:49:39 (EST)
______Katie -:- It's womens spiritual world. -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:22:07 (EST)
______bill -:- It's womens sexual fault -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:56:56 (EST)
________God -:- I explain it all here -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 10:33:31 (EST)
__________seeker -:- to god -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 00:43:00 (EST)

Larkin -:- Songbook -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 16:13:00 (EST)
__Robyn -:- Songbook -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 16:55:13 (EST)
____Selena -:- Songbook -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 17:51:54 (EST)
__Mickey the Pharisee -:- Songbook -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 20:32:15 (EST)
__An aspiring lyricist -:- Songbook-another one for you -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 22:27:26 (EST)
____Larkin -:- He's come to show us rerewind -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 01:48:24 (EST)
__gumby -:- Songbook -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 01:43:00 (EST)
____larkin -:- Songbook -:- Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:35:45 (EST)
__Bill Cooper -:- Songbook -:- Fri, May 01, 1998 at 01:55:48 (EST)

Robyn -:- Mr. Ex how are you -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 11:09:33 (EST)
__Mr Ex -:- Fine thank you! -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 11:30:54 (EST)

Selena -:- avoidance, the 5th technique -:- Mon, Apr 27, 1998 at 13:51:51 (EST)
__Selena -:- avoidance, another one -:- Mon, Apr 27, 1998 at 15:11:35 (EST)
____Brian -:- avoidance, another one -:- Mon, Apr 27, 1998 at 22:01:52 (EST)
______Selena -:- avoidance, another one -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 11:43:02 (EST)

Brian -:- Software changes in place -:- Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 20:19:19 (EST)
__Selena -:- Software changes in place -:- Mon, Apr 27, 1998 at 12:56:57 (EST)
____Brian -:- Software changes in place -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 08:23:24 (EST)
______Robyn -:- Brian -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 10:17:45 (EST)
______Selena -:- Software changes in place -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 11:33:33 (EST)
________Scott T. -:- Software changes in place -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 13:23:18 (EST)
__________Selena -:- Software changes in place -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 13:47:41 (EST)
____________VP-Where have all -:- the flowers gone -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 20:36:19 (EST)
______________Robyn -:- the flowers gone -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 20:42:21 (EST)
________________VP -:- the flowers gone -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 21:42:57 (EST)
________________billdha -:- the flowers are here -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 23:42:50 (EST)
__________________VP -:- the flowers are here -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 08:47:12 (EST)
______________JW -:- the flowers gone -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 20:51:27 (EST)
________________JW -:- flowers gone -- Pete Seeger -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 20:54:35 (EST)
__________________Nigel -:- flowers gone -- Pete Seeger -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 21:18:47 (EST)
________________Robyn -:- the flowers gone -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 21:05:44 (EST)
__________________Nigel -:- just wanna ride my motorsyckle -:- Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 21:29:49 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- just wanna ride my motorsyckle -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 08:49:29 (EST)
____________________Scott T. -:- just wanna ride my motorsyckle -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:08:54 (EST)
______________________Robyn -:- Hobo's Lullaby -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:44:54 (EST)
________________John -:- in time of dafodils -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:31:51 (EST)
__________________Selena -:- in time of dafodils -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:15:01 (EST)
____________________John -:- guru in red -:- Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 16:10:42 (EST)


Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:44:40 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: jmkahn@hol.fr
To: Everyone
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Hi guys,

I've been peeping and reading your endless debates for months now.
What finally decided me to openly participate is that I've just received a phone call from Marc L., who was (is he still I don't know, as I'm not involved anymore in Elan Vital here in France anymore) EV's president here for years.
I've been myself very much involved in EV since 1974, and I finally decided
to leave my position about 1 year ago, when I was starting to feel that
there is something wrong in this all EV business and in this devotional cultish group. Not that I didn't enjoy Maharaji's show and a lot of these interactions I had with him and many of the premies. But there were too many odd things in the whole trip that forced me to think more about it.
I also did enjoy the practice of meditation a lot, which I still practice at times with great pleasure, it's always been giving me a lot of insight and good feelings about myself. Very relaxing experience, nothing wrong with it, I even feel much better practicing since I've decided to brake
my ‘link' with Maharaji. I know it is THE BAD thing to do for a premie.
But I've decided to do it, because it was necessary. To much cheat and deceit on Maharaji's side, I'm sorry to say this, I know it's going to hurt
a lot of present premies feelings. Things have to be said, I discovered it's very healthy, and all the information published on your site (and some other cult awareness sites) have been extremely helpful for me.
It's obvious so many ‘premies' have already left the cult : tens of thousands very likely, as I'm sure for France alone at least 10,000 people have received knowledge, and about 1,000 are still here ‘practicing', ie (more or less)
linked in the devotional bound. I know for sure that many of the so called ‘practicing' premies are kind of on the fence, paranoid about leaving, insecured by that idea (they might be changed into a rabbit or something),
many of my premies friends are in that state, I would say most of them ; they practice from time to time, enjoy the show, make donations from time to time
to get rid of their guilt feelings (I'm a bit offensive), don't feel that good about the whole trip. But as it's already been said many time here, there is a kind of warmth in the premies group that keeps it together.
I find the whole ‘knowledge' trip very much lobotomizing to say the least.
If people enjoy being lobotomized, maybe you could say it's their business, but
I think truth has to be said about the fact that Maharaji's Knowledge is essentially
a devotional trip. Devotion (even if it's called another name) is what's required from
aspirants, and premies are encouraged to stay in the devotional path, being convinced that their ‘experience' is coming from the ‘master', which is of course
a pure lie. Meditation itself can give you a nice experience, but it's very misleading to believe or make people believe it's coming from the ‘link' with the ‘master'.
Again, there is obviously an experience in devotion, but that's not for me anymore.
I would say it's a wrong choice I made at one step in my life. And obviously
many others did : they were lured in, enjoyed, got disgusted or sick of it, and left.

The guy (Marc L.), who is an old friend of mine, asked me about how I was doing etc
as he knows I don't come anymore watching these videos, and that I've become very critical towards Maharaji, Elan Vital and all this cult business (I already had quite
some debates about this with some old premies friends, and maybe he heard some
wild rumors about me being very critical). I already had lunch with him a few months back and told him a few things I didn't like about EV.
He wanted to invite me to a meeting on next Sunday with Rajaji. I told him I always liked they guy, but I came to listen to him the last time he was in Paris (where I live)
and that his words were absolutely empty and hollow. He was speaking about his love and reverence for the master for an hour, and I didn't learn anything interesting
from it. I told him that I might be interested in a private conversation with Rajaji, but
the guy isn't much interested by that type of interaction. Too bad.
We talked a little bit, he brought the Internet issue, and asked me if I knew some of you guys, about Jim Heller. Then he asked me if I was Mr X myself.
I said no, and asked him why. He said the X is very virulent against M.
I've asked him why M never wanted to answer to those critics etc, why he doesn't sue the site if he is pissed or if he thinks he's been defamed : Marc answered
that he doesn't want to, and said a few things about reasons for not doing so I don't remember, like it's not going to make any good to anything.
He seemed quite concerned about what was going on on this site. I told him that what people express here is very legitimate. It looks like many of them have been (and are still) suffering a lot from their involvement in the cultish aspect, that
meditation has nothing to do with devotion, and that I've also suffered a lot from this odd devotional trip. He told me something like ‘devotion is something
that's always been here', etc. I answered him that I don't have anything in particular against people practicing devotion, but I've discovered that it's been very harmful for me, and that I think it doesn't help people at all, IMHO,
to develop their best human potentials. On the contrary.
He told me a few things about how being involved in this Internet chat was ‘bad'.
I told him that whatever happens on the Internet is nothing ‘bad' in itself :
if he doesn't like it, just don't come here and read the messages or whatever materials is on this site. I told him it's like a TV show, or newspaper : I don't
have to watch what I don't like, or buy papers I don't like. If people have a chat on a topic I don't like, I won't go with them.
The fact that exes have been hurt by their involvement in this cult should be
respected, whatever they might say. These premies that are so loving should maybe consider us (may I say ‘us'), and treat us as anybody else.
If some exes have said here things that hurt their feelings, I think they should be able to understand why. When you've been hurt, there are a few options : you can stay by yourself, try to forget it or cry about it, you can be very pissed off and react in many ways, even saying
malicious and mean things against Maharaji, I think this is an
absolutely normal human sane reaction.
I've been hurt, and not by myself. Maybe I've been stupid enough not to
keep to the first feeling I had in 1971 when I first heard about it : this is a ridiculous trip. What I still feel strange is how you easily get trapped, at least some people like me and you (exes). Some people are receptive to this at a certain time, too bad for us.

Then Marc said he had to end up the conversation because he had a
flight to catch. I told him I would be very happy to talk with him more about it another
time.

I had some strange feeling after that conversation with him.
I was wondering why he called me. Knowing the truth about Mr X ?
What for ?
A lot has been said, maybe some facts given on the site are not very accurate, some figures might be wrong, maybe the Rawat's family doesn't live anymore with 300,000 $ a month, I can understand it.
The description of the videos, the aspirants process, the instructors documents,
everything is absolutely genuine. Many facts that have been reported by friends are available here, and everything I've learned here perfectly fits in the
picture I already have. I'm not completely stupid, and 25 years of involvement in a group gives you a fairly good idea of what's going on, even in fields I haven't been directly involved. Premies are so involved in gossip, that there
is not much staying secret.
There are many other issues that will very likely be brought out by other exes when they'll dare say what they know.
If some information is wrong or biased, why don't they give the real ones ?
I've been involved enough in various EV's activities to say that whatever I've read here is very compatible with what I know.
It's very good to have all this information available. Premies who are not aware of those will have food for thoughts. Aspirants will also have some interesting materials.
Anybody can of course say this is all BS, but that kind of answer won't lure anybody (except for lobotomized people, I'm sorry).

Well, I've said a lot.
I don't have anything against premies in particular. I understand they don't appreciate that kind of post, it hurts their feelings, I'm sorry. Maybe they feel their cult is threatened, I perfectly understand. But you and me have every right to say and write what we say and write.
That's what decided me to openly participate in the Forum, thanks to Marc L (I have nothing against you Marc).
My attitude towards Mr Rawat (all of them, BTW) is different : they know they're cheating. They're very intelligent persons. Maybe they don't know anymore if they're
still holy or not, if they're still in heaven or not. Maybe they are kind of prisoners in their game, that is their problem.
I would be very happy to have a friendly talk with them. We've become friends in a way during all these years, but it's been mostly a one way communication, and the best way to solve problems is by talking. Mr Rawat, you can talk to me, I'm sure Marc will give you my private phone number, or you may email me - I will respect you as I always
did, but no more than anybody else. If someone has been unfaithful with me, I have every right to complain. And I do.

That's enough for today.

* Jean-Michel *
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:09:27 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Bravo, Jean-Michel! Thank you for your very courageous statement. I'm glad you finally felt comfortable about posting on the site.

Regards from Katie

P.S. I'm curious why Marc. L would think that this site is 'bad'. Does he mean that reading or posting on it is bad for premies? Or for everybody (is M going to punish us...?) How does Marc L. know about the site anyway - does he read it?
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:36:39 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
>I'm curious why Marc. L would think that this site is 'bad'. >Does he mean that reading or posting on it is bad for premies? >Or for everybody (is M going to punish us...?) How does Marc L. >know about the site anyway - does he read it?

I don't know. Maybe he does really think this Forum is a wonderful thing.
He ended the conversation because he was in a hurry, he might
call me back, or maybe I will.
I don't think he would answer here, we'll see .....

jm
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:26:31 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Dear Jean-Michel,
Thank you for your heartfelt post. I am so glad you felt you could 'come out' here and I hope you know you will find much support from the ex's here and there haven't been any premies for a bit as you know if you've been following us for some time so you'll get no arguments there. I feel that what you have expressed is very important for all of us who post and view the site.
Thanks again.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:43:26 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Thanks to you too, this forum has been EXTREMELY helpful for me.
I'll be glad to openly participate now.
I probably won't have much new stuff to bring here,
but talking about this is very helpful, like it's been with many
of my friends here.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 14:01:43 (EST)
From: Lg
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Jean-Michel

Merci pour ton 'post', c'est comme une bouffée d'air frais.

Still after 10 years, I appreciate your encouragement and I completely agree with your ideas.
Lg
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 14:19:11 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: stalking@freewheeling.com
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Jean-Michel:

Were you ever in the L.A. community that used to meet at Larchmont? Just curious. I think the person I knew at that time was Swiss, or at least he was a friend of Jacques Sandos [sp?].

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 14:40:26 (EST)
From: bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Jacques Sandoz
Message:
Hey, speaking of Jacques Sandoz (scion of the Swiss Sandoz Pharmaceutical empire, manufacturers of Delsid, pharmaceutical LSD).......

anybody know where he is?

I remember him showing up in India in 1971 with the dancers. Quite a crew.

Jacques played Zeus at the marriage of Ricardo and Lothar of the Krishna Lila dancers. Anybody go to that wedding party? That was quite an event. I had a great time. There were all kinds of folks there.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:15:10 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: Jacques Sandoz
Message:
I loved the music from the krishna lila dance. the flute music.
I still remember the main lines.
That was a wild group and I imagine quite a party crowd!
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:29:38 (EST)
From: Paul
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
I was living in the LA ashram in 1972 when Jacques was there working on the 'Who is Guru Maharaj Ji' film.' Yes, he was Swiss.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 17:59:28 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
I don't think I'm the guy you're talking about.
I came many times to the US, but mostly to attend
m's conferences.
I've also spent some holidays on the beaches, and a bit
into the maya .... no satsang in the US, that's why I'm so
confused I guess:-)))
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 20:12:16 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
I noticed the Long Beach '97 /event/festival/program (I just love doing that) had a lot of people from somewhere outside the US. It gave the illusion of a lot of followers but it's plain to see that many many people from the states have stopped coming around. Welcome Jean-Michel. I just know there's tons of people like you who read here but don't post. I was one of them until January when some unpleasant stuff happened due to my interactions with the premies and my going to the LOooooonnnnggg Beach event.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:02:52 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Have you already talked about this, Selena? Is it archived on the site somewhere?

If not, would you feel like telling me what happened with you at the LB event?

-Still
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 14:07:45 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Pissed off/EV/ Long Beach
Message:
I never tried to look thru archives so I don't know how they work. I started talking about my LB stuff in January of this year, right after the birthday scene in LB in 97.
I told people a lot of stuff, but there was a lot more that happened that I didn't want to reveal at the time because if anyone who knew me read it they would know right away who I was. but now it doesn't matter so much. If you can't find it, I'll start a new thread about LB. I may anyway, I like talking about it for some reason it makes me feel better.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 19:59:29 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Long Beach
Message:
Well, I found some in the archives, but I certainly wouldn't mind hearing more!

-Still
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:12:47 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with rawat
Message:
Hooray for Jean Michel!

A fine discourse and I welcome you to our little forum
of facts.
Thank you for your clarity and sincerity and strength.
It helps.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:18:03 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Jean-Michel,
Nice post. Full of honesty, clarity and intelligence. Thanks, VP
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:27:27 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Thanks a lot for your post. You know but I'll say it anyway that your comments are really appreciated. Thoughtful, real and meaningful. Thanks again.

Do people named 'Jean-Michel' ever go by 'Jean'? What do your friends call you, assuming you still have any now that you've stopped watching videos?

So is there any way I can reach this Marc guy? If you speak with him again, ask him to email me: heller@bc1.com

Just 'cause he was asking. I wonder if it had anything to do with my recounting my conversation with Raja Ji.

Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks.

Jim
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 18:24:24 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim:Pissed off with EV
Message:
Hi Jim,
>Do people named 'Jean-Michel' ever go by 'Jean'? What do your >friends call you, assuming you still have any now that you've >stopped watching videos?

I still have some friends, believe it or not. Some I've definitely lost for some time, at least I can be honest with the others, they appreciate it. My family and my friends know exactly where I'm at, and what I've been through, I had to tell them, part of the leaving process. I feel MUCH better now than ever.
I'm not pissed off with the premies, I've been like them and I understand their point.
I'm still feeling like recoverinng from a lobotomy, if you ever can...
People call me jean-michel, sometimes JM, sometimes jeanmi ...

>So is there any way I can reach this Marc guy? If you speak with >him again, ask him to email me: heller@bc1.com

OK, I'll forward him your email. I'll try to find out his, if I still have it. He's a nice guy anyway. He needs a devoted life!

>Just 'cause he was asking. I wonder if it had anything to do >with my recounting my conversation with Raja Ji.

What was this converstation about? I've missed your post.

>Anyway, I just wanted to say thanks.

Thanks to you for this web-site
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:55:49 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
and I finally decided
to leave my position about 1 year ago, when I was starting to feel that
there is something wrong in this all EV business


Welcome to the Forum, Jean-Michel. I decided about 2 months ago to stop following Maharaji, for reasons that sound very similar to yours.

I even feel much better practicing since I've decided to brake
my ‘link' with Maharaji. I know it is THE BAD thing to do for a premie.


Yes, the hardest thing for me in making my decision to leave was the thought that I might be somehow screwing myself.

To much cheat and deceit on Maharaji's side

This is exactly why I left.

make donations from time to time to get rid of their guilt feelings

Actually, on the infrequent occasions I made donations, it was because I was genuinely grateful to M for 'all he had done for me.' I didn't feel guilty about not sending money when I didn't, nor did I feel guilty about sending money when I did.

premies are encouraged to stay in the devotional path, being convinced that their ‘experience' is
coming from the ‘master', which is of course a pure lie.


Yes, the 'spiritual connection between the student and the Master' is such a hurtful thing to peddle.

Again, there is obviously an experience in devotion, but that's not for me anymore.

Why be totally devoted to and totally trusting of someone you don't even know, someone you've never even really met, someone that all you know of them is their stage persona?

I think [devotion] doesn't help people at all, IMHO,
to develop their best human potentials. On the contrary.


My experience is different than yours here. I think devotion actually did help me bring out my best potential. Until I grew so much that I grew beyond M and had to leave him behind. But I think now that how beneficial the whole thing always seemed to me was one reason it took so long for me to wake up to both how fake and how dangerous it was.

I've been involved enough in various EV's activities to say that whatever I've read here is very compatible with what I know.

I'd be very interested to hear more about your experiences with EV -- what it was like, what you did there, what you thought about, etc., if you feel like talking about it.

Aspirants will also have some interesting materials.

When I get the time, I will write up about the Knowledge Selection I was allowed to attend with Sri Sant Holy Holy Holy Mahatma Gurucharnand Fuckhead.

But you and me have every right
to say and write what we say and write.


Even more than this, at least for me personally, I feel a great need to say the things I have to say here. I think it's part of my healing process.

I will respect you as I always did, but no more than anybody else.

I can no longer respect M. even as much as I respect almost everyone else I've ever met. I don't respect people who deliberately lie to me in order to get something out of me that they want.

That's the one thing you didn't mention, Jean-Michel, which was another big reason I had to leave M: waking up to the fact that he doesn't have my best interests at heart, like he always led me to believe.

Thanks very much for your post. It really is helpful to read the words of someone who has come to a lot of the same conclusions as I have.

-Still
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:21:12 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: patsy cline
Message:
Thank you for offering to share your knowledge selection
experience with us.
Truth is welcome here.
Are you sure still crazy is correct?
I cant find any crazy in your posts.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:31:27 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: patsy cline
Message:
My nickname is from the Paul Simon (?) song 'Still Crazy After All These Years.'

-Still
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:40:03 (EST)
From: KnowItAll
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: patsy cline
Message:
Hey, that's Willie Nelson's creation, not Paul Simon's.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 14:49:59 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: KnowItAll
Subject: patsy, willie, and paul s.
Message:
My humble opinion:

Willie Nelson wrote 'Crazy', which was sung by the Patsy Cline (who was from northern Virginia like me - rest in peace, Patsy).

Paul Simon wrote 'Still Crazy after All These Years', or at least he sang it.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:04:25 (EST)
From: DontKnowItAll
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: patsy, willie, and paul s.
Message:
Right you are, Katie!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 18:48:06 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: DontKnowItAll
Subject: patsy, willie, and paul s.
Message:
Heh. Well, obviously I wasn't sure, which is why I put the (?) after Paul Simon. But I really thought I remembered him singing the song. Thanks Katie for verifying that I'm not completely crazy!

-Still
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:37:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: patsy cline
Message:
I haven't seen the Crazy either. Maybe he/she should be called Now Sane. (I like Still Crazy, though. It was very clever.) VP
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 07:15:14 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Still:

When I get the time, I will write up about the Knowledge Selection I was allowed to attend with Sri Sant Holy Holy Holy Mahatma Gurucharnand Fuckhead.

All this time and I did not even know his family name. He must be part of a dynasty. I think we even have had some presidents in the US that are cousins.

-Scott
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:03:02 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrwo.demon.co.uk
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Bonsoir, and Merci Beaucoups!

Wonderful post, JM. Stick around please. You must have so much more to tell. (Or stick around anyway...)

Thanks again,
Nigel
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 03:43:35 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper
Email: billnlynda@xtra.co.nz
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
I really appreciated your story. I`m sure that there are many more who are sitting on the sidelines that need your sort of insight. My story is on the journeys section of this site. I`ve just re-read my story, and I noticed how ambiguous I am about Maharajis status. Now one year on I`m 99.99% sure that the whole thing is a cult that people like me at that time were drawn into like moths to the light. I`ve just finished reading the Guru papers ( a Mask of Authoritarian power) by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad and it is excellent , I definitely recommend it. For me it helped to crystallise a lot of nebulous feelings and made me realise there is a structure to this whole thing . It also helped me get rid of some of the anger I feel for Maharaji, that he in some senses is as much a victim of this whole phenomena.
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:31:17 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Bill Cooper
Subject: Pissed off with EV
Message:
Bill,
I, too have often thought he was a victim in this scheme also. But only when he was a child. He is a big boy now and certainly knows exactly what he is doing and why. Which is, IMO, for money, sex and power, the big three. It seems he has also developed a strong streak of just plain ole meaness.
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 14:53:49 (EST)
From: Jean-Michel
Email: None
To: Bill Cooper
Subject: BM a victim
Message:
I don't buy too much of that theory.

If you read Bob Mishler's testimony, you understand
that the BM is VERY aware of all the whereabouts of the
whole phenomenon.

And I don't think Bob has been the only one to have that
kind of conversation with him.

I can understand it would be difficult for him to renounce his
guruship, BUT that doesn't mean he is no responsible person.

When you face problems as the BM obviously does, you think twice about a lot of things in your life. You HAVE to.
Then you make conscious choices.
The BM made a lot of conscious choices.

He has no excuses, as long as he won't follow JW's 10 commandments!
That's the bottom line for me.

These should be printed in bold somewhere.

Then
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 18:55:37 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Jean-Michel
Subject: BM a victim
Message:
What are JW's ten commandments or where can I read them?
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 20:19:40 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Gerry
Subject: BM a victim
Message:
Dear Gerry,
How are you? I just checked the inactive message list and JW's 10 commandments aren't there which means they are archived. Probably in the latest one, if not definitely the one before, I think! There are many responses and the subject is written in caps so it shouldn't be to hard to find.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 20:45:27 (EST)
From: Gerry
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: BM a victim
Message:
Hi Robyn,

I'm grrrrrrrrrrrreat! Hope that nasty headache thing is over for you.

I'll look for that posting.
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 22:52:48 (EST)
From: Take a hike Ladies,
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: It's a mans spiritual world.
Message:
What is this thread about huh?

Well, since I risked lifetimes of suffering by calling
buddha a delusional clown, I thought I could make amends
by quoteing him in a few posts.

Just to seperate the wheat from the chaff right off the
bat, It is important to know who is who on planet earth.

So, Ladies, see if you can just accept reality.
buddha was god you know.

buddha:
''Assuredly one must beware of women. For every one who is
wise, there are more than a thousand foolish or wicked ones.
Women is more secret than the path the fish follows in water.
She is as fierce, and as cunning, as a brigand.(a bandit)
She rarely speaks the truth: for her, truth is the same as
falsehood and falsehood the same as truth.
Often I have counseled a disciple to avoid women.''

For months he left the aunt who had reared him at his door; she
came each day, in rags, seeking a look or a kind word from him.

The question was even asked whether women could reach
the budhi. AFTER DENYING IT, the master at last yielded
to the insistence of his intimates, but he was slow to
change his view. For the nuns brought a disorder as much
material as spirirtual into thier communities.

Hinayana and Mahayana, agree in thier expression of the
disfavor in which women are held from the spiritual point of
view. ''for this I have obtained a womens body, because
I have sone wrong in a past life.''

A popular TIBETIAN text, translated by bascot, is a good
reflection of the buddhist attitude of mind to women.
The context is a dialogue in which a monk explains to a girl
why he keeps her out of his path:

''women is the source of the three damnations.
Traffic with women is the ruin of men.
Women bring misfortuneon men in this world and the next.
There is no peace for a man who desires women.
He who desires women must flee them...
Women are so clearly the source of all sin that buddhas are
never born of them...
The absolute and the relative, the void and mercy are realities
that cannot be found together in women.
The universe perishes by thier presence.''

In the countries of the soulth, women should not touch the
food when filling a monks food bowl.
She should not tread on the rug or mat that the monk is sittin on.
She should never address him first.
She should avoid uncovering herself before him.
She should sit in a posture that cannot awaken desire.

The bottom of the page starts to discuss the state of nuns
in the buddist world and the next page was torn out!
This is from the trinity university college library where
six nuns were soon to come and I was looking for dirt-I mean truth

But even without the page, I can tell you that these nuns were
comeing to perform a ceremony and it was real big buddist news
because this was the first time nuns had been allowed to
do ceremonies. The new enlightened dali lama, being the
incarnation of a..... , the highest being in the otherworld,
told the nuns they could do THIS ceremony and then in a
private audience with the nuns before they came to trinity
to wow us, he wold them to meditate on the emptyness.

Can you imagine the millions of women that have had to suffer
abuse because of buddha?

I wonder if our very own bobby knew about buddha really
or just heard some watered down version.

Oh my buddha god I am heartly sorry for haveing offended you.
Maybe one of you could please tell me what kind of adjetives
are better suited to the great monster-ooops I mean master,
than delusional clown.

billdha
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 00:15:24 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Take a hike Ladies,
Subject: You're a brave man, bb
Message:
I personally disavow any words I've ever said in agreement with the content of your message, whether I said them or not. Or thought about saying them. Or anything else that might incriminate me.

You're on your own, Bill [snicker]
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 01:33:08 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Take a hike Ladies,
Subject: It's a mans spiritual world.
Message:
Hi billdha,

That was a very awakening post. Can you get me the reference of where you got it from. Thanks very much.

GAGBWY

-gumby
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 07:17:17 (EST)
From: pokey
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: It's gumbys world.
Message:
Sure, I zeroxed the stuff so I'll have to go back to the libraries
so give me time to get it.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 02:48:48 (EST)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: Take a hike Ladies,
Subject: It's a mans spiritual world.
Message:
hi...

you say.... Can you imagine the millions of women that have had to suffer abuse because of buddha?

You could include millions of names also. What about Christians, Muslims, Jews, politicians, kings, and even simple men as maybe a neighbour of yours or... the baker.

Can you imagine the billions of women that have suffered some kind of abuse?

It seems the problem is not only Budha, but men and women.

And so what? Why to suffer, if this reality will only change slowly during centuries? Why blame only Budha?
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 07:13:49 (EST)
From: billdhs
Email: None
To: Paula
Subject: amazon heaven
Message:
buddha is to blame because he claimed to be the
master.
The enlightened one.
The one who knew what life is about.
The one who knows for sure whats what.
Before buddha, the reality of womens equality before god
was probabaly assumed by some groups scattered around
the asia area. Maybe it was widely assumed that there was
no difference. And maybe women had an elevated position
in some societies. France supposidly has women on a bit of
a pedestal in thier society.
Along comes a fake guru maharaji buddha and says THIS is
the way things are and STILL millions of women are affected
by this one mans abuse.

He is the one people should follow and whose ideas are the ones
that are correct.
the prem rawat of his age.
That is the reason I am going to work against prem rawat.
HE also wants to be looked at by future people as the
enlightened one who came and said many things and just because
ashrams are out right at the moment, they could come back
like kissing the feet did. More people trapped in that way.
And I have a tape of rawat talking about him hireing a
women co-pilot against his wishes. I will post that.
That is revealing about his feelings and attitudes toward
women professionals. You wont approve.
Who knows what the hell he will say in his future meglomania.
Unopposed, he is free to march around as the buddha of
his age.
It is quite possible that buddha was historys worst offender of
women. The guy paul from the bible set women
back here in the west, but didnt tell them there was no god
and that they were not only not loved by god but not going
to reach the fictional state of god realisation that he
got everyone to believe existed.
History is dreadful for sure.
Men and women and children have really been throught it.
But buddhas misperception about the nature of life and
the cause and elimination of suffering is a lazy mans
dark dream and in his grandiose claim to be enlightened
and the master, he fooled the innocent millions for
centuries. He is revered like rawat. Another fake master.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 10:53:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Paula
Subject: It's a mans world
Message:
Dear Paula (and Bill) -
I have to agree with Paula. Just think of all the religious paths that she mentioned: Christianity, Judaism, Islam. It's pretty revealing. I don't think Buddhism should be singled out.

By the way, Bill, putting women on a pedestal is almost as bad as demeaning them. It's just another way of saying that they are not equal. Women on pedestals are not allowed to do anything that might knock them off the pedestal. (Have you ever heard of the Madonna-Whore complex that some men have? That's what I mean.)
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:31:30 (EST)
From: billdha
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It aint a world of suffering
Message:
By pedestal I mean treating them with respect and appreciation
and seeing and enjoying the difference.
You know that french term: Viva la difference!
It is great to love your women.
To love your wife.
Paula is paul by the way
right? didnt I see that written?

Imagine my 17 yr old. HE just had his first real kissing
session last week. good looking guy definately but not fast.
So anyway, now he wants his pants pressed and is upgradeing his
hygiene habits.
If we were buddist, true buddhists, he would not be looking at her
with this love innocence, but I would have already taken him
to buddist catechism classes and he would have been indoctrinated
to look at women the way buddha demeans and demotes them.
So much for the loveless eastern religious crapola.

Islam, or what mohammed had to say about women, was some good
chapter about women and that god loves them equally.

Same with christianity and the jews.
Society and social discrimination grafted onto religious culture
is vastly better than the fake buddhas total slam against
women. By the way, his religious ideas are even MORE pathetic
than his anti women bias.
Perhaps Paula has a buddist streak and can't own up to it?
Its tough to have your god dethroned publicly by his own words.

by the way Katie, I er, a, um, love you.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:19:23 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: billdha
Subject: It aint a world of suffering
Message:
Hi Bill -
Respect and appreciation, yes (for BOTH men and women). Pedestal, no. (How would YOU like to be on a pedestal?)

As you said:
It is great to love your men.
To love your husband.

I don't like it when people make generalizations about men and women like they are two different species. I know you didn't do this, Bill, but I'm just making it clear. I do think that you are making too many generalizations about Buddhism, though. There are a lot of different kinds of Buddhism, and a lot of different Buddhist scriptures, just like in any other religion.

I love you too, Bill,
Katie

P.S. Paula is NOT Paul, and Paul is NOT Paula!
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:43:19 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It aint a website of pretense
Message:
Thanks for the paul paula update.

There IS ONE buddha.
HE was the enlightened one.
Anyone changeing the message and calling it buddhaism
is a fraud buddhist.
Either buddha was right or he was another confused human.
People who try to dress up the 'deluded one' with thier
own 'improvements' are NOT buddhists.

Apologists are not allowed to pretend the guy wasnt
what he was.
Come on Katie!
Do you allow premies to come strolling into this website
and just rewrite rawat's history and words and deeds?

NO
And the same with any other fake enlightened deluded
person who tries to plant himself and HIS ideas
in between you and god.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:57:04 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: It aint a website of pretense
Message:
Bill - wasn't Buddha supposed to be human? He was supposed to have achieved enlightenment, but I don't think he was supposed to be god.

Anyway, I have to admit that I don't know very much about traditional Buddhism. The only Buddha quote I know is the Four Noble Truths. I have read a bunch of books by people who call themselves Buddhists, but they are all modern Americans. The books don't talk about Buddha very much (so they don't 'rewrite his words and deeds' as you said). They mostly talk about ideas. I would like the books just as much if the people didn't call themselves Buddhists - in fact, the fact that the authors DO call themselves Buddhists put me off for a long time. I actually think you would really like some of these books, Bill, as some of the ideas are similar to yours.

Not sure I'm addressing your question here.
Katie
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:04:53 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: bill
Subject: It aint a website of pretense
Message:
Dear Bill,
I think I just got it. If he said he was god his views should have been absolute and not effected by the times. Right?
Robyn
PS my older daughter left this morning to see Jim Hession. She is going to mention your name to him for me. I meant to ask her to get his email address but forgot.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 01:01:08 (EST)
From: Cheddar
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Katie
Subject: THE noble truth
Message:
Bill wrote:
'by the way Katie, I er, a, um, love you.'

And Katie wrote:
'I love you too, Bill.'

Now that was worth getting up for. Last night I hugged my daughter, Jasmine and felt Like I loved her more than ever. The same for both daughters. Difficult times here with a new recession caused by the bullish US stock market hitting all businesses but amongst it all, the real noble truth lives on.
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 01:03:39 (EST)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It aint a world of suffering
Message:
Dear Katie,

Thank you for making clear that I am not Paul. I tried it once, when I wrote in a message my name as 'Paula not Paul', as a kind of a joke, because Paul wrote 'Paul not Paula' in a message in the same thread.

If anyone has doubts, you can check the IP number, and find out that we live in different countries. Also, he might write in English much better than me.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:01:04 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: billdha
Subject: Paul/Paula
Message:
Dear Bill,
I correspond with Paula and she has never mentioned being Paul and I think she would have. I thought I read a post from Paul wher e he says he is not Paula.
Robyn
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 13:56:44 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Paul/Paula
Message:
Every paul has a paula within inside somewhere trying to express the him side of herself, and vica versa.
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 10:49:01 (EST)
From: Robert
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: John
Subject: Paul/Paula
Message:
Dear John,
I used Robert because I am Catholic and had 2 aunts that were nuns, they were horrified that my parents named me Robyn because there was no saint named Robyn. I don't know if it was official but St. Robert became my patron saint. I don't even remember anymore what a patron saint was for! Maybe, gumby, bb, or Mickey would know. Anyway even if Paula has a Paul inside within and Paul has a Paula, they are not each others Paula and Paul, get it?
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:11:40 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Robert
Subject: Agnes Eve
Message:
If I had been a girl I would have been named Agnes Eve because I was born on the eve of st. agnes. My parents were heavy into catholocism, so guess what my middle name is.
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 11:20:22 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: John
Subject: Agnes Eve
Message:
Dear John,
My dad's parents came here from Italy and he was born on 3/25, the anounciation. Every child born on that day had to have a name associated with that day. I can't imagine what the girl's equivalent was, I shudder at the thought, but his name is Nunzio (sp?). Thank god it isn't his first name!
Robyn
My parents had 5 girls and for each one, except the youngest, they had a boy's name picked out. Luckily the 2nd oldest was a girl or his name would have been Roudolf, Ugh!
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 13:49:03 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: John
Subject: John's middle name
Message:
I've tried to guess and I'm clueless, John. Now I really want to know - what is it?
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 14:47:06 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Katie
Subject: John's middle name
Message:
Dear Katie,
I just thought it was Agnes, hope I'm wrong for John's sake. My sister use to babysit for a kid whose last name was Bar and her parents named her Candy...mean, I think.
Robyn
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 01:21:11 (EST)
From: Paula
Email: None
To: billdha
Subject: It aint a world of suffering
Message:
HI,

I just want to make clear something. I wrote 'why to blame ONLY Budha?'

I said 'only', because I believed in what you said in your message. Also, I tried to tell you that sexism does not depend on religion, and, the real problem is men/women, not religion.

I think you tried to blame Buddha about something, but your arguments were very fragile.

Also, you made 2 big mistakes:
#1: you thought I am Paul, and I am not a man.
#2: you thought I am Buddhist, and I am not.

And, my religion preference is none. Which means, I give a damn to Budha, I don't believe in everything written on the Bible, (BTW, Bible is very sexist, in the old and in the new testimony, they treat women as an object), I am completely against Krishna followers, and muslim to me are crazy fundamentalists/terrorists (not all of them, but many).

As Marx said: 'religion is people's opium'. Or...... heheheh....

it is funny, because I never liked M much.... but this time I have to agree with something he said: 'There is 2 Gods... one that created you, and another one that you created in your mind'.

(oh.. it is hard..... but I have to accept that I agree with M on this.... hehehehhe)

ps: if you keep not trying to understand what I write here, I am going to ignore your posts. Actually, I wrote this message, because I wanted to make clear what I tried to say, to people I care.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 08:35:06 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Take a hike Ladies,
Subject: It's a mans spiritual world.
Message:
Dear bb,
It is a man's world, unfortunately! Men have similar effects on women you know and I believe that this world may perish because of this male dominated world is so unconserned with others, human, animal, plant and mineral! I never realized how anti-women Buddhaism is, thanks for the enlightenment!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 19:16:52 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: It's a mans spiritual world.
Message:
Buddhism is not particularly anti-woman for an old, monastic religion.

I believe it is the oldest religion that allowed women full participation. Judaism, Islam and Christianity (all more 'modern' religions) do not allow women to be rabbis, priests etc. For a long time women weren't even allowed in the churches of these religions, and AFAIK in Islam they are still not, and in Judaism they have to sit in a separate section of the synagogue.

In Hinduism, from which Buddhism sprang, women are taught that if they are very good they will receive a male body in the next life, and only then will they have the opportunity to achieve liberation. It was only in the 1920s that the custom of a wife throwing herself on her husband's funeral pyre was outlawed in India.

While I believe that in the accreted spiritual writings of any religion it is possible to find quotes that will prove just about anything one wants to, Buddhism seems like one of the more 'progressive' religions to me in its attitude towards women.

-Still
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:35:19 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Still Crazy
Subject: It's a mans spiritual world.
Message:
Actually Still, women are ordained as deacons, priests, and bishops in the Episcopal church and much of the Anglican Communion (women are finally being ordained priests in England). Women are now ordained Rabbis in Reform Judaism. Things are changing in some places, and will continue to progress.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:10:42 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Mickey the Pharisee
Subject: It's a mans spiritual world.
Message:
Yes, but a few examples to the contrary (I'll probably offend some people and I am sorry, but I do consider the following to be sexist).
Women can still not be ordained as Catholic priests.
Orthodox Jewish women still have to cover their hair after they marry, and they have to take a mikvah (ritual bath) to cleanse themselves after their menstrual period.
Muslim women in many places still have to wear the chador.

I am sure there are many more examples on both sides of the question. My point is that it is hard to point to one particular religious path - like Buddhism - and say that it is more sexist than any other religious path.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:31:50 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It's a mans spiritual world.
Message:
Katie,

You're right, all religions are superstitious grab bags of moral strictures, entertainemnt and crowd control. One could continually tweak the old structures, I suppose, and make a Christianity (or Buddhism, Judaism, Maharajism [?!?!]) 'for today' but that completely ignores what religion's essence is -- a received teaching from a divine source.

Many worry that we need religion to maintain morality and social order but evolutionary psychology explains quite convincingly that morality's most likely in the genes.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:44:29 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's a mans spiritual world.
Message:
Hi Jim - I don't agree that all religions are superstitious grab bags of moral strictures, entertainemnt and crowd control , because I think some people have real spiritual experiences through the means of organized religion. In other words, there may be more to religion than you say. I haven't experienced this myself, so I can't (and won't) argue the point. I developed a heavy case of allergy to organized religion of any kind as a result of my involvement with Maharaji. I also am put off by any religious practice that centers around a teacher, or teachers. I'm not saying this is right - it's just how I feel.

Also, IS the essence of religion'a received teaching from a divine source? It was my impression that the source didn't necessarily have to be divine - just inspired.

Katie
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:56:53 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It's a mans spiritual world.
Message:
Hi Katie,

First, you're inconsistent a bit. You say 'think some people have real spiritual experiences through the means of organized religion' but then back off a bit and say 'there may be more to religion' than I say. If you really mean your first statement, then there's no maybe about it -- you believe people are having spiritual experiences through organized religion. In that case, you must believe quite simply that there is more to religion than I say.

If that IS what you think, would you say the same about the Maharaji organized religion, that people have had 'real spiritual experiences' through its practise?

As for the source of religion, aren't we saying the same thing? After all, isn't inspiration supposedly God's gift?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:11:02 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's Jim's spiritual world.
Message:
Yes, Jim,
I do think that think some people have real spiritual experiences through the means of organized religion and I do think that people had real spiritual experiences through their involvement with the Maharaji organized religion. I give the credit to the people themselves rather than to Maharaji, because I don't think he does anything more than teach a meditation method. I don't know what to say about the other religions, because I've never been involved with them to the extent that I was involved with Maharaji.

I was involved enough with Maharaji to be able to say now that I don't think he's the incarnation of god, or even a good role model; that I don't think that practicing the techniques of knowledge will bring enlightenment; and that I don't think devotion to Maharaji will bring enlightenment either.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 11:32:17 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It's Jim's spiritual world.
Message:
Katie,

You say 'I do think that people had real spiritual experiences through their involvement with the Maharaji organized religion' yet you're quick to add that you believe M deserves no credit for giving these experiences to people.

Is it any different than watching a guy eat his bag lunch outside a restaurant? He might get nourished but the restaurant gets no credit, not even for encouragment (after all, the guy was hungry, he already had his lunch, he could have eaten it anywhere)?

And if that's the case, wouldn't it be misleading to say he was fed through his involvement with the restaurant?

Unless you're willing to give Maharaji some credit - which, you're not -- aren't we talking simple coincidence? Couldn't the guy have been sitting outside a bowling alley just as easily?

And if that's the case, doesn't that leave Maharajism -- or any religion -- with no bragging rights whatsoever?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:31:38 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's Jim's spiritual world.
Message:
You got me, Jim, because I don't remember having a spiritual experience that was connected with being a M follower. I think you need to talk to someone who has. Some people have said that learning the meditation techniques helped them have spiritual experiences. This wouldn't be simple co-incidence.

Also I am hesitant to generalize about 'all religions' from my experiences with Maharaji's organization. To me, it's like saying ALL men are awful after you have a bad experience with one or two of them.

By the way, I have had the only 'spiritual' experiences that I can remember while taking a walk in my old neighborhood, while riding in a car over the 14th Street Bridge in DC, while riding in a car down the New Jersey turnpike, and while I was sleeping (it did wake me up). So I can relate to the bowling alley example.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 15:55:14 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It's Jim's spiritual world.
Message:
If you found one common trait to all men that was determinative of what you're talking about, the generalization's okay. Like, if you said all men have y chromosomes.

I think that all religions require some acceptance of some doctrine that's beyond debate. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so.

I'm particularly amused by cults and religions (no real difference to me) that have, as a central tenet, the notion that they have no such doctrine. There's one called Shabud Laurie's neighbours are into. The guy went on and on about how they have no teachings, the experience just happens and they get together to have their indvidual 'shabuds'. Some guy might shake his leg, some one else might jump up and down, someone else might rap in glossalalia. So I researched the trip and, surprise, surprise, they've got all sorts of subtle dogmas keeping the trip intact. Including, of course, the 'no dogma' dogma.

Another example is Maharaji.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 16:11:41 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: It's Jim's spiritual world.
Message:
Dear Jim -
You may be right about religions all having a central doctrine that's beyond debate, but I'm not the right person to ask - I just don't know enough about it. Maybe you should discuss this with Michael or someone else who really practises (and has studied) a religion.

Regards,
Katie
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:43:47 (EST)
From: fuddha
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: It's a small world after all
Message:
Hi still crazy!
Hope you will allow me to vent on this post and dont take
it as directed at you except perhaps the first line- ok?

Perhaps you might want to reread his words again.

The watering down by people that winch at thier gods
obvious lunacy hands us an 'improved' version.
If buddha was god then buddha was god. Dont alter the
word of god. It is true so we have to just eat the truth
straight on as it is given to us by the 'enlightened one'.

If he is a fraud then let it be accepted as a hideous
case of one deluded fake god affecting millions of gullible
humans just like rawat would like to accomplish.

Loseing my delusion about rawat was no picnic but there is
no point in me haveing some 'nice thoughts' about the
fake god that I bought into. HE is not god and that is the
reality. So the 'lord of the universe' is a fraud and his
words are all invalidated. The words of a liar are not
needed by me in my life. Same with the budda.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:03:37 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: fuddha
Subject: Here, here, Burke, old chap
Message:
Bill,

That's it exactly. We can forgive George Washington for having slaves on account of the age he lived in. He might still have been strong in other respects notwithstanding the pervasive cultural blindness he shared.

So-called enlightened beings supposedly speak to us from some vantage point outside the culture. They're fully responsible for their shit, that's the whole point. In fact, once you start excusing their ignorance on account of culture the game's over -- they're exposed as mere creatures of their times, like everyone else, and not beacons of timeless light, dispensers of ageless wisdom.

That was one of Maharaji's big hooks for us westerners. We had new and exciting; Maharaji was offering us timeless and profound. Either he had it then or he didn't. He has no more room to improve as a 'Perfect Master' than a religion founded on his teachings or any other 'received wisdom'. Once you get into the growing, human realm of experience, the mystical authority disappears.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:47:33 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Jim
Subject: Jim Dawkins
Message:
glad your back.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:15:26 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: Jim Dawkins
Message:
Hi bill,
I was just picturing Jim inadvertently starting a new religion and being worshiped in a couple of hundred years as the prophet who preached the gospel of Dawkins...Ironic, ain't it? I do think that's how some religions get started.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:27:44 (EST)
From: Jim
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: Jim Dawkins
Message:
Now, now, Katie, don't be so cynical.

Religions get started when people are fed doctrines, not when they're presented ideas to consider and accept and reject as they wish. For the longest time, humanity's had a lot of the first and little of the second. But maybe we're learning something, huh?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 19:39:33 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Jim
Subject: Jim Dawkins
Message:
Let's get this straight once and for all. Darwin = God. Dawkins = minor prophet. Gould = Archangel Stephen Jay.

OK?
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 00:24:24 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: fuddha
Subject: It's a small world after all
Message:
I hear what you're saying, and maybe someday I'll be saying exactly the same thing myself.

But the way it seems to me right now is that what makes M so dangerous, and what makes intelligent people swallow his hook is that a lot of what he says is true.

He only mixes a little poison in with the nourishing meal.

I no longer trust anything he has said to me. This is unfortunate in a way, as it requires re-examination of everything I know, everything I think I know, and everything I believe.

However, I think I'm unlikely to reject all of this out of hand, just because a liar told some of it to me. I need to evaluate the truth or falsehood of these things, or desirability in things that are unprovable, independently of whether or not M (or Milarepa) has said them to me at some point in my life.

-Still
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 01:28:24 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: It's a wild world after all
Message:
Hi not so crazy,
Interesting post.
I know it is matter of preference and what we decide to do
with our time, but I am glad to do a reassessment of
my understanding of the nature of life
and see what looks like the right stuff and get on
a track of my own chooseing. It is a great study and
full of surprises frankly.
I love the forum for it's help.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 08:44:56 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: bobby,
Subject: Disavow your feminine side
Message:
bobby,
After reading this by Budda, I think you had better disavow your feminine side and quick! (All those childbirth experiences and such) Just funnin' with you, bobby.
VP
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:52:32 (EST)
From: bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: bill
Subject: billdada buddha bias
Message:
>>buddha was god you know.

Ya got one thing wrong right off the bat, Bill. There is no 'god' in Buddhism, at least not in the Christian sense. You seem to be looking for a God that does no wrong by applying human moral standeards. Somehow I don't think you are gonna find one. Maybe you think Christ is that 'God'.

I don't know why you are on this big crusade to reveal Buddha as a 'fraud' but I'm not interested in debating the validity of the teachings. As far as I'm concerned, the teachings work. If that makes me a fool in your eyes, so be it.

Those references you throw up are sorts of archaic curios and really have nothing at all to do with my practice. I could give you all kinds of additional curious references, not only from Buddhism but from every religion in the world. Christianity is loaded with all kinds of sexism and racism. Why don't you attack that?

I don't do my practice from intellectual analysis of what Buddha is purported to have said or didn't say. Lots of what I've read speaks to me. Some doesn't. I take what I need and leave the rest.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 10:41:11 (EST)
From: bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: all
Subject: Sexist Milarepa quote
Message:
In Tibetan Buddhism, Milarepa is regarded as a saint. While looking for a dharma-mate, a shakti, I used to read this quote from a Milarepa text to my girlfriends:

'On the whole, young lord,
Women are the cause of lust and attachment.
A qualified Illumination-Woman is indeed most rare.
To have angelic company on the Bodhi-Path Is a wonder and a marvel;'

This is a Tantric statement. I don't view women as the cause of lust and attachment or for being the beautiful creatures they are as they appear to me. However, in *my mind* the images of women often were the causes of lust and attachment. My problem, not theirs. Not that I've chosen the route of bramacharya (celibacy). I've sure responded to the desire attributes of women and at this point have no regrets. I've tried to work with the energies appearing in the space of my life.

Then again, any boddhi-path itinerant, male or female is also said to be quite rare. One out of a hundred humans has any interest at all. Buddhism states that the number of folks that have fully realized the Truth is as rare as the stars one can see in the morning sky. Milarepa was said to be the closest to full realization, but even he blew it near the end.

Clown Buddha
Clown Women
Clown Bobby
Clown ducked in water-vat at carnival
Clown Universe ;)
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 11:24:17 (EST)
From: Anon
Email: None
To: all
Subject: More spiritual concepts
Message:
I agree that Buddhism is not by any means the only religion whose founding members and subsequent adherents often subscribed to some pretty outrageous, abusive and deneaning beliefs. Beliefs that were widly held in those more repressive ages.
Seeing as this website is generally about Maharaji I thought it relevant to say something about the ideas that have come over from India in the wake of Maharaji and other gurus.

As we all know, the caste system in India has it's roots in a 'spiritual' model of the universe which seeks to explain the misfortunes and inequalities of humanity through the karmas of past lives.
Maharaji seems to pay little heed now to these concepts, but it is worth noting that Maharaji's father (and his Satguru before him) conducted missions that were very much coloured by these deep rooted ideas about Karma etc. One has only to find quotes from Shri Hans Ji's writings (Hans Yog Prakash) to see that he subscribed to some of the older and now contentious concepts and attitudes.

Maharaji himself is now portrayed on the one hand by his followers, as a true Master struggling nobly to shake off the Hindu trappings that came as a resulty of the first wake of very Indian followers, and on the other hand, as a victim of his very Indian upbringing who himself believed and encouraged in others, the more intimidating and demeaning spiritual concepts that his father and those around him impressed upon him, and who now shrinks from taking any responsibility for, or addressing, the woes of those people who he in turn laid those trips on.
Here is a rather interesting little extract from 'Radhasoami Reality' which touches on the ongoing problem Indian Guru's have with women and also some people with physical handicaps.
-Anon

---------------------------------------------

The Radhasoami attitude toward gender is complex. On the one hand, its organizations are aggressive, rational, powerful, and efficient and exhibit what are often thought of as male virtues. On the other hand, what is ultimately valued for spiritual purposes are traits of submission, innocence, subtlety, and love, virtues that are often ascribed particularly to women. It is no surprise, then, that Radhasoami men should praise women for doing what men think women do well, and should want in some sense to emulate them. This compliment paid to women has its roots in Vaisnava bhakti, where devotees seek to be like Krishna's lady friends, especially his favorite, Radha, and mimic their love for the handsome Lord.' Of course, some people may regard the very premise of this compliment as demeaning to women: the notion that women are inherently less capable of spiritual achievement than men.

The validity of the traditional Indian view that women are born with a heavier karmic burden than men is a matter of some debate in Radhasoami circles. Some masters say that spiritual achievement is a private matter between oneself and one's master, and that gender is irrelevant; others deny that women have a capacity for spiritual greatness; and still others are circumspect. Charan Singh, for instance, says that women are sometimes less able to progress spiritually because they are 'tied down to the world' by the 'instinct of devotion,' but he notes that the same instinct gives them the ability to move more rapidly in meditation in the initial stages. A man takes longer because 'his approach is through logic and reasoning,' while 'a woman's approach is primarily devotional; she does not bother very much to analyse things.' Even so, he affirms that it is possible for women to reach a high level of spirituality—the sant, Mirabai, is given as an example—and even the pronoun used to refer to the Absolute could be 'He or She, or One.' Other masters are more pessimistic about the ability of women to overcome their heavy burden of karma. 'On principle,' said Anand Swarup, 'a female cannot attain the status of a Saint.'

Much the same is said about the physically handicapped. The blind especially are regarded throughout India as having suffered an enormous weight of bad karma, and as a result some within Radhasoami have thought it impossible for the blind to achieve a high degree of spiritual achievement. It is said that once when Kirpal Singh took pity on a blind man and initiated him, the trauma of his assuming the weight of the blind man's karma was so great that the master became physically ill.

The spiritual progress of the blind is also impaired by their inability to visualize the physical form of the master. 'The nature of our spiritual practices excludes them,' one of the leaders at Dayalbagh explained. For these reasons, some Radhasoami masters have regarded it as futile to initiate the blind at all. Once a British devotee wrote to the Great Master at Beas and urged him to initiate a blind man who earned his living playing the piano and who 'loved him very much.' His love failed to persuade the master, however, who responded that initiation was out of the question 'because a blind man cannot have the Darshan or sight of the Satguru.'' The barrier against initiation does not apply to persons who, through accident, have gone blind after birth, however, and the Great Master at Beas is said to have restored eyesight to a satsangi who had temporarily gone blind. One successor of Swami Shiv Dayal Singh, Garib Das, was said to have been blind, but he presumably lost his sight through old age rather than as a condition of birth. Because sight is regarded as such a precious gift, Radhasoami leaders have made special efforts to alleviate the problems of those afflicted with eye diseases. At Beas a huge 'eye camp' is sponsored each year in order to provide free operations for those whose sight is impaired. But even though it is claimed that true blindness is 'not in the loss of eyes, but in keeping away from God,' those whose eyesight has been lost from birth continue to be excluded from most of the Radhasoami fellowships.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:11:12 (EST)
From: Joy
Email: Bluebirdd@aol.com
To: bill
Subject: Sexism in Buddhism
Message:
Interesting thread! I think the original Buddhist scriptures quoted are very ancient and archaic and have nothing to do with contemporary Buddhism. They were also, no doubt, directed towards the celibate, monastic practitioner of Buddhism, which constituted a considerable part of ancient Tibetan and Indian Buddhist society. (And Buddha was, or rather became, a renunciate.)

These days there are quite a number of female spiritual teachers in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, both renunciate nuns and married lamas, and these are as highly respected by the Dalai Lama and all Buddhist practitioners in general as the male teachers. These ancient scriptural quotes are also reflective of the societal mindset of the day towards women, and I'm sure if you dug around in the Christian scriptures, or those of any other ancient religion, you could find comparable prejudices. (Isn't the Old Testament, Gumby, full of derogatory references to women??) To take this out of context and assume that the Buddhist religion has nothing to offer is absurd.

So, guess all I can say is 'We've come a long way, baby!'
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:30:23 (EST)
From: bobby
Email: bobby2@mindspring.com
To: Joy
Subject: Sexism in Buddhism
Message:
Good post Joy!

Another point is that the Dalai Lama has said something to the effect that in his view Buddhism is highly adaptable and that if something in the Buddhist canon doesn't seem accurate it should be dispensed with.

For some really interesting ranges of Buddhist perspective, you might want to check out the magazine *Tricycle*, edited by Helen Tworkov.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:35:06 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: Sexism in Bed hism
Message:
The dali lama,
He didnt disavow the fantasy that he is the incarnation of
A....... And as you know, A......... is the only guy in
the altered states that is allowed to incarnate as
the dali lama and so that makes him the most powerful
guy in the beyond and so that makes him lord! of the universe!

Or are we just supposed to 'allow' that little fantasy
and ignore the sordid tibetian past.
Just cause the marketing department of the eastern
misperception of life kicks in and says 'be nice'
doesnt mean we are supposed to go 'oh well!,
Who cares! Let this fantasy of the emporors clothes
go on forever!
Why fight prem rawat?
Why not let THAT little charade just march on too?
Lets be nice!
It's more spiritual!
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:04:29 (EST)
From: david f.
Email: dkfreed@whidbey.com
To: Joy
Subject: Sexism in Buddhism
Message:
Hello to all. I am new to this list. As an ex-premie, and now a practicing buddhist, I find this line of thought most revealing.

A lot has been in written in our time about abuse of women and 'women who love too much,' etc., but as men we probably find it hard to admit the sway that women have over us, with regards to our desires, our feelings of self-worth, manliness, etc. It seems that this may be an age-old struggle, that even the more 'enlightened' men seemed to deal with in a blaming way--that women are the root of our desire, they lead us astray, ect. --instead of achknowledging our own desires and the forces of desire that we all have to come to terms with, whether we're looking for 'mr. right' or 'our goddess-whore,' or whatever fits.

My recollection of Marharaji's orginization and teachings was that it seemed to be free of references to women as the root of evil, however, the place that women held revealed a lot of the underlying beliefs--most of the leadership was in the hands of men (for example, wasn't the family fued about whcih 'son' was the real lord of the universe?), while the guru married, and his wife was to be viewed as a goddess.

As buddhist (or spirtual seekers in general) and feisty americans, we have a chance to be more honest now, if we so choose. The main message for me in buddhist practice is not to continue to play out these roles--to be strong men without desire, or to become knights in shining armour-- but to go deeply into, and honor, our our own places of hurt or fear or desire.

best wishes, david f., whidbey island, wa.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:37:18 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: None
To: david f.
Subject: Sexism in Buddhism
Message:
Hi david - thank you for the sincere and well-thought-out post, and welcome to the forum. Hope you will keep on posting.

I always felt that there was an inherent sexism in Maharaji's organization. I think that some of it came from some of the rules that Maharaji's mother made for the ashrams (about the kitchen and the housemother, and so forth), but a lot of it came from some traditional ideas about female roles that Maharaji and the mahatmas had. I have heard a male mahatma quote that Ramakrishna saying about 'women and gold' being the cause of evil, or whatever. I used to have a premie boyfriend who often quoted that to me too, believe it or not! He thought I was distracting him from his spiritual practice. I always wondered how come women weren't supposed to get distracted from THEIR spiritual practice by men - was it because their spirituality was somehow inferior?

Anyway, I liked what you said about role-playing. I have always wanted to be recognized as a human being first, before being treated like a woman. I am kind of envious of the people on this site who have not revealed their gender - they often do get treated that way. I imagine that men feel the same way sometimes (or at least I hope they do!)

Regards from Katie
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 13:41:32 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: david f.
Subject: Sexism in Buddhism
Message:
Dear david f.,
Glad you 'came out' here today also. I have always had an intrest in Buddahism and other alternative spiritual pursuits but have been busy in my 'life' and find other readings on health and mental health more practical topics up to this point in my life but I am always learning about them in bits and pieces now that I am here. Welcome.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:24:03 (EST)
From: bb
Email: None
To: Joy
Subject: Sexy Buddi
Message:
What does budhaism have to offer?
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:13:37 (EST)
From: You came back from the
Email: None
To: bobby
Subject: dead but not to be imprisoned
Message:
Gee Milarepa, I guess the wifes of the men I know are not
realizing gods precence in thier life and they dont make
good life companions for thier husbands because they distract them
from god.
I guess it is a rare and a marvel to have a good wife.
I will have to read this little buddhist wisdom to my wife.
She always is in pain and she prays a lot. Glad she doesnt have
to be perfect like the 8 fold path claims you must be.
Her closeness to god is between her and god, and buddha is
trying to put himself between her and god just like rawat
did.
All these tyrants want to put themselves and thier ideas
between you and god. Like THEY are the authority.
The enlightened ones. Do you see the insidious part of that?
You want god bobby, but you are involving all these people
who actually dont know ANYTHING about what can be between
you and god. Instead of a clean thing, there are all these
budhist 'modalities' and ideas that are just a trap
of delusion. Not your fault, except YOU allow thier
continued presence.
WHY does there have to be the complicated ideas of men
when god is just flat out there.
All the ideas of the idiots are a trap for the next guy.
I was caught in rawats, so you KNOW I cant say I am way
ahead of you. All I can say is that as I look around, the
noise of the bulk of the religions is an intrusion
between you and god.

I think you will find the next couple of posts on the budda
and the tibetians of interest.

I am just going down the line in my scouring the globe
checking out the line up for who is accurate and who is makeing
some bad guesses. I know I am supposed to just sort of
'allow' for inconsistancies just because the people alive
before me thought something was smart.
But look at how many trips you wandered through before
you decided-through exhaustion? or whatever, to just sort of
decide that THIS one resonated with your frequencies.

I think you are somewhat open about this but perhaps it is
because it is me, and it is here, that you have a hard time
takeing a different look at the nature of the power of life.
But hang in there, buddhas own words are comeing to the
rescue soon. I found HIS words and they are doozies.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:57:12 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Take a hike gentlemen
Subject: It's womens spiritual world.
Message:
I thought I'd try a little gender reversal on the quotes that Billdha and Bobby posted (maybe I'll do St. Paul later - ha!) Typing these things made me laugh, by the way.

Ms. Buddha says:
'Assuredly one must beware of men. For every one who is wise, there are more than a thousand foolish or wicked ones.
Men are more secret than the path the fish follows in water.
He is as fierce, and as cunning, as a brigand.(a bandit)
He rarely speaks the truth: for him, truth is the same as
falsehood and falsehood the same as truth.
Often I have counseled a disciple to avoid Men.'

A Tibetan Ms. Buddhist text:
'Men are the source of the three damnations. Traffic with men is the ruin of women. Men bring misfortune on women in this world and the next. There is no peace for a woman who desires men. She who desires men must flee them...
Men are so clearly the source of all sin that buddhas are never born of them...
The absolute and the relative, the void and mercy are realities
that cannot be found together in men.
The universe perishes by their presence.'

And Ms. Milarepa says:
'On the whole, young lady,
Men are the cause of lust and attachment.
A qualified Illumination-Man is indeed most rare.
To have angelic company on the Bodhi-Path
Is a wonder and a marvel'
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 21:25:47 (EST)
From: Sir David
Email: David.Studio57@btinternet.com
To: Katie
Subject: It's a load of old tosh
Message:
Basically, and some here won't agree with me; I think the whole Buddist/Hindu thing is a load of old tosh. A load of mumbo jumbo; a religion made by men who were some real wierd dudes. An ancient and medieval practise that is fine if you like that sort of thing but the TRUTH? Stroll on!!!
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 12:29:05 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Sir David
Subject: old toad fish!
Message:
Dear David,
I thought the subject said old toad fish. I have a bad headache and stomach ache and think I'm going home, must be to much laughing, yeah right!
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 21:42:55 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It's womens spiritual world.
Message:
Katie,
Haha! You forgot to include the lines about us never asking for directions when we are lost, or never lowering the toilet lid. VP
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 22:49:39 (EST)
From: Still Crazy
Email: None
To: Katie
Subject: It's womens spiritual world.
Message:
Men are so clearly the source of all sin that buddhas are never born of them...

Katie, I think you've discovered the true secret of this scripture! ;)

(Your way is so much more believable than the translation by the 'uninitiate.')

-Still
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:22:07 (EST)
From: Katie
Email: petkat@mail.trib.net
To: Still Crazy
Subject: It's womens spiritual world.
Message:
Thanks, Still. I have to admit that I stole the idea from Father Mickey...
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 23:56:56 (EST)
From: bill
Email: None
To: Still Crazy
Subject: It's womens sexual fault
Message:
Your on to something there SC!
By the way, I hope this isnt too improper to bring up
in sheriff brians world but MY private parts wake up
irregardless of ANY external stimulation.
What is the big idea these religious tyrants have that
women are somehow in control of that thing?
It has a mind of it's own.
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 10:33:31 (EST)
From: God
Email: None
To: bill
Subject: I explain it all here
Message:
Bill, since it is clear you are a sincere seeker of truth, I will explain why homosexual sex is actually 'safe' spiritually, and heterosexual sex is VERY bad in that it depletes your extra special source of special energy which allows you to become enlightened.

Sex with the opposite sex is engaging in an activity which has the capability to bring another being into the world. So your energy is being used for that purpose - to reproduce. Using your energy for this purpose is VERY bad in that it depletes that extra special source of special energy which allows you to become enlightened. Whereas homosexual sex cannot result in reproduction so it is truly just for 'fun'!

You have an energy supply which is just for 'fun', depleting that will not stop you from reaching the enlightened state of consciousness. That is why Plato and Aristotle, and Socrates were able to play with boys and still experience The Truth.
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 00:43:00 (EST)
From: seeker
Email: None
To: God
Subject: to god
Message:
gee thanks god!

If only jw lived closer!
Hmmm, there are little boys around the house...
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 16:13:00 (EST)
From: Larkin
Email: Larkin@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Everyone
Subject: Songbook
Message:
No aspiring poet can hope to get anywhere without the publication of the occasional 'slim volume'. So for the exclusive benefit of Forum III readers (and the gratification of my own ego, of course), I have temporarily fenced off a small corner of cyberspace for the Larkin Songbook:

http://www.redcrow.demon.co.uk/raven.html

(if it doesn't work for any reason, try again in 24 hours or so)
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 16:55:13 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Larkin
Subject: Songbook
Message:
Dear Larkin,
Thanks, was wondering how/where you were.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 17:51:54 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Songbook
Message:
Mazzer-Arti is my favorite, but it's hard to pick one favorite.
Thanks.
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 20:32:15 (EST)
From: Mickey the Pharisee
Email: mgdbach@ziplink.net
To: Larkin
Subject: Songbook
Message:
A wonderful site, Larkin, and I have bookmarked it!
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 22:27:26 (EST)
From: An aspiring lyricist
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Songbook-another one for you
Message:
EX-LORD OF THE UNIVERSE (with apologies to The Anand Band)

Ex-Lord of the Universe has come to us this day!
Ex-Lord of the Universe has videos to play!
And he's come to show us rewind,
And he's come to show us remote,
And he's come to show us the way...
Back to our VCRs (Back to our VCR's, Back to our VCR's)

Open up your heart to the universal fraud
And he will fill you up!
Open up your heart to the universal fraud
And he will fill you up!

Ex Lord of the Universe has come to us this day!
Ex Lord of the Universe has come to take our pay!
And he's come to get credit cards,
And he's come to get checks or cash
And he's come to show us the way...
Back to our wallets (Back to our wallets, back to our wallets)

Open up your heart to the Universal fraud
And he will fill you up!
Open up your heart to the Universal fraud
And he will fill you up!

Ex Lord of the Universe will keep you on the run!
Ex Lord of the Universe will get your mind undone!
First a program in Miami
Next a program in London
Hope your loved ones don't mind at all...
You're doing darshan (You're doing darshan, your doing darshan)

Open up your heart to the Universal fraud
And he will fill you up!
Open up your heart to the Universal fraud
And he will fill you up!
Return to Index -:- Top of Index

Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 01:48:24 (EST)
From: Larkin
Email: larking'redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: An aspiring lyricist
Subject: He's come to show us rerewind
Message:
Excellent. The job's all yours!
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 01:43:00 (EST)
From: gumby
Email: None
To: Larkin
Subject: Songbook
Message:
Greetings Larkin,

Welcome back. I missed your postings.:) Your site is cool.

I do have two small observations:
1) The background color make it hard to read some of your posts.
2) In the intro you wrote: There are many Maharaj Jiis alive
today, and none of the following lyrics name any one of them in particular. But, as they say, if the cap fits
Do you know more than one Maharaji Ji?

GAGBWY
-gumby
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Date: Thurs, Apr 30, 1998 at 20:35:45 (EST)
From: larkin
Email: None
To: gumby
Subject: Songbook
Message:
(1) Thanks for the comments, gumby. I'm still experimenting with this HTML nonsense, but have now fixed the colours.

(2). Well there's Prem Pal, Satpal, the guy with the Maharaj Ji Foundation, and more. Do a simple web search, and if you include 'Ji Maharj's there seem to be an awful lot of 'em.

BTW> the disclaimer was just an insurance thing. Someone says: 'That is an outrageous thing to say about GMJ'

I say, 'How do you know I was talking about your GMJ.

They say, 'It says he never pays no taxes while he keeps a stash offshore. That's the sort of thing they say about GMJ'

And I say, 'Surely your Guru Maharaj Ji wouldn't do anything like that'

And they say 'Of course not'.

So I must have been talking about someone else.
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Date: Fri, May 01, 1998 at 01:55:48 (EST)
From: Bill Cooper
Email: billnlynda@xtra.co.nz
To: Larkin
Subject: Songbook
Message:
Mr Larkin,

I have just visited your site and read all of your songs and poems.You are very talented. I laughed and laughed. It got so bad my wife thought something must be wrong. The unfortunate thing is that so few will really ever appreciate your creative talent, but those that do will surely bust a gut. Your sense of humour is sorely needed here if anything is going to get us out of this shit its going to be not taking Guru Maharaji seriously, and step two taking the piss out of him. Your version of Arti certainly did it for me. All of those memories of swinging trays in the prescence of the Lord of the Universe at various parts of the planet and this emotional investment we all made and the desire that somehow it might be all true despite years and years of foreboding. Well your songs cut through all of that crap and gave me enormous release Cheers !!

Bill Cooper
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 11:09:33 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Everyone
Subject: Mr. Ex how are you
Message:
Dear Mr Ex,
I don't think I've seen you post for a bit and then you just did a few times. The last I heard from you you were going through seperation anxiety, I guess you could call it. You said you were making progress and I was just hoping that things are moving in a positive direction for you. I really wasn't sure I should start a thread about this but how else to ask?
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 11:30:54 (EST)
From: Mr Ex
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: Fine thank you!
Message:
Hi Robyn!

Thank you for your TLC (!) remember this ?

I'm fine, and quite busy these days.

My 'anxious' symptoms are not that bad, in fact
I'm fine.
It's just a kind of inner feeling sometimes: I know
where it's comming from, and it tends to fade away.

I'm going through a lot of changes in my life, of course.
I've been so much involved in that EV business for so long,
but I've got friends, quite a lot of things I enjoy doing,
and my life is much better than it's been for 25 years.
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Date: Mon, Apr 27, 1998 at 13:51:51 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Everyone
Subject: avoidance, the 5th technique
Message:
The issue of the premie site going away got me thinking about something a premie said to me in January when I mentioned this.
Her explanation was the site was 'probably' closed because the premie had posted all these contacts. Names and addresses of different people in different communities who had video events or whatever. This was her justification for the site closing, that people didn't want their addresses and phone # posted all over the net. It didn't occur to me to ask her why M or one of his minions couldn't have just asked the web author to remove that part of the site and leave the rest.
Another good one I've heard is 'Not everyone watches the videos. Not everyone gives money. People can take what they want and leave the rest from this ' uh huh. Let's examine that one.
You can go to an event. Listen to M talk and get up and leave as soon as he's done to avoid the 3 videos that follow, but it's pretty hard to avoid the 5 or 6 that preceed. You can listen to him yell about participation but tell yourself 'that doesn't apply to me' or, like I overheard in a shuttle, 'I just have to ask M to show me how to participate bacsue I don't know wht to do' yah, Right. he's going to call or write and tell you just what to do. Sounds like a safe bet to think like that since you know he'll never do it.
You can say he's a meditation teacher but it's a little hard to ignore all the love songs and myriad trinkets and pictures for sale.
Anyone got a few more examples of this avoidance technique? We could call it the fifth technique!
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Date: Mon, Apr 27, 1998 at 15:11:35 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: everyone
Subject: avoidance, another one
Message:
When asked by someone 'Does M give money to any charity groups?'
a premie answered - (and I mentioned this as an M quote earlier because I do remember him saying it):

'If he gave money the person would just need more later on. What he gives is priceless and will be with that person forever'

now, the best part, guess who that premie was? me, and only a year ago at that. fortunately the person wasn't buying.
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Date: Mon, Apr 27, 1998 at 22:01:52 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Selena
Subject: avoidance, another one
Message:
Ouch! That must smart :)

The part about avoidance is rooted in the pretense that MJ is something more than a flim-flam man. If you buy into THAT, then the rest is easy to justify. A lot of the people who post here as ex's saw the first crack appear in their basic belief as to who MJ is, and then the rest crumbled rather quickly.

For me it was seeing that after all these years he actually backs AWAY from methods to spread knowledge - his purported goal. He has sacked those who could also teach the techniques, eliminated testimonials from those who claim to have benefitted from it, hidden from the media, discouraged premies from using the internet, totally discounts its value in spreading information, and gotten rich in the process.
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 11:43:02 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: avoidance, another one
Message:
I would have felt worse if the person (who I ended up marrying) did fall for the whole thing just because of me. They aren't kidding when they say it's a program of attraction How many people would get into it these days strictly because they are so taken by M? I'll bet most of the aspirants these days are in there because of a friend or lover they admire.

It's easy to see why he wouldn't like the net. The techniques are not a secret any longer. people are giving spontaneous points of view as opposed to carefully edited videos. It kind of puts holes in his whole business.
Reminds me of another justification:

'It's not about the techniques it's also the special connection with the teacher'
Heard that a few times? It's most likely been done but I feel like making a list.
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Date: Sun, Apr 26, 1998 at 20:19:19 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Everyone
Subject: Software changes in place
Message:
One of the problems with making changes to the software is that I have to debug it myself on a copy of the forum that runs on the site. When it looks like it's probably working, I get to turn it over to you people to find what I should have found already.

I think it should be okay. But I'm sure that you'll all let me know if not :)

Petrou should be joining us shorty and perhaps Vacol will make an appearance - although he was holding out for my removal. Brace yourselves...
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Date: Mon, Apr 27, 1998 at 12:56:57 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Software changes in place
Message:
>Holding out for my removal?

What does that mean? Is he wanting you to quit?
No way!! You contributions, and not just the techie stuff, are far more valuable.
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 08:23:24 (EST)
From: Brian
Email: brian@ex-premie.org
To: Selena
Subject: Software changes in place
Message:
Nobody has ever accused Vacol of being humble. He's pretty certain that if faced with a choice between finding a new webmaster or doing without his valuable insights (numbered and catalogued), the ex's on this site will rise up and burn me at the stake.

Ya just gotta love the guy. He's such a chronic innocent. I'm sure if he ever gets untangled from his mouse cord, he'll post again...
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 10:17:45 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Brian
Subject: Brian
Message:
Dear Brian,
You, my friend, are irreplacable!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 11:33:33 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Brian
Subject: Software changes in place
Message:
So that's it - all this posting about free speech and the real reason we haven't heard from him is he entangled himself while whirling about in a surge of ectasy after reading his own posts.
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 13:23:18 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: Software changes in place
Message:
Selena:

So that's it - all this posting about free speech and the real reason we haven't heard from him is he entangled himself while whirling about in a surge of ectasy after reading his own posts.

My personal favorite is the thread he did on 'vunerability.' By the simple omission of an 'l' he managed to make himself 'vulnerable' to criticism about his spelling. It has a certain zen-like appeal.

-Scott
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 13:47:41 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: Scott T.
Subject: Software changes in place
Message:
Yes and he made it especially good by using the excuse that he spells words phonetically. Last I checked when you sound vulnerable there are definitely a few l sounds in there.
But we don't know and love him for his spelling skills after all.
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 20:36:19 (EST)
From: VP-Where have all
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: the flowers gone
Message:
Did someone decide to start their own web site? It's all quiet on the Western front.
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 20:42:21 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: VP-Where have all
Subject: the flowers gone
Message:
Dear VP,
I was thinking the same thing this morning. They're in a conspiracy to boycott the forum. It is a shame it all had to happen but it has brought a kind of balance for me time wise. At this rate Jim will never come back, eh? Or we'll have to have parts we play as premies, didn't Jim and JW do that recently? Is your busy day over? I still have 2 hours to go, Ugh!
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 21:42:57 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: Robyn/JW
Subject: the flowers gone
Message:
Robyn,
I have a few more things to do this day before packing it in for the night. Glad your busy day is almost over. I think that you should be the premie, but beware of giving Satsang. Scott or John can pretend to be Jim. I can pretend to be JW while he is gone.

JW,
Have a safe flight. Talk to you when you get back.
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 23:42:50 (EST)
From: billdha
Email: None
To: Robyn
Subject: the flowers are here
Message:
I think they are still a bit flattened by reading some of the
stories about rawat.
Also, they probabaly dont know where to enter the conversation.
The threads about our personal histories are some stuff they
probably dont feel to challenge.
In late may the forum should be hopping.
Some folks will respond to my letters.
They may take over briefly, but we are practiced, just look at it
like a rescue operation. Some will require a spank now and again,
but the wackmaster---I mean the webmaster, is up to the
challenge.

I like this little break. Its cozy in here.

Except for the chill of spiritual reality courtesy of buddha.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 08:47:12 (EST)
From: VP
Email: None
To: billdha
Subject: the flowers are here
Message:
I like it, too. Don't tell anyone:)
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 20:51:27 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: VP-Where have all
Subject: the flowers gone
Message:
See how boring it gets without our beloved premies to harrass us?

BTW -- Pete Seeger's new retrospective collection, 'Where Have All The Flowers Gone,' just got released and I listened to it last night for the first time. Bonnie Raitt, Nanci Griffith, Ronnie Gilbert and a bunch of others sing on the album.

This flower will be gone for a few days, just heading for the airport. Enjoy.
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 20:54:35 (EST)
From: JW
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: flowers gone -- Pete Seeger
Message:
Oh, and the allbum is HIGHLY recommended!!!!
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 21:18:47 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: ..
To: JW
Subject: flowers gone -- Pete Seeger
Message:
Has it got 'Little Boxes' on it?
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 21:05:44 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: JW
Subject: the flowers gone
Message:
Dear JW, et al,
For my oldest daughter's 5th birthday, I took her to see Arlo Guthrie and Pete Seeger at an outside arena. What a concert! I've wondered about Arlo, does anyone know if he got the disease his dad had? Huntington's I think.
Robyn
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Date: Tues, Apr 28, 1998 at 21:29:49 (EST)
From: Nigel
Email: nigel@redcrow.demon.co.uk
To: Robyn
Subject: just wanna ride my motorsyckle
Message:
Woody had Huntington's for something like 15 years, I think. Really tragic. Until you mentioned it, Robyn, it had never occured to me that Arlo might end up the same way. It is certainly a long time since I heard anything from/about him. Does anyone else here know anything?
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 08:49:29 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: just wanna ride my motorsyckle
Message:
Nigel:

Haven't heard anything about Arlo, but he is the only one of Woody's children to have survived childhood. I saw a documentary about Woody a few years ago that included an interview with Arlo. He was not sick at the time, as far as I know. Seems like Huntington's would have onset by then (he was in his late 30s or early 40s. The CS Monitor has a 'What Ever Happend to...' column, but guess that they'd have a bias against publishing something about Huntington's if Arlo has it.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:08:54 (EST)
From: Scott T.
Email: None
To: Nigel
Subject: just wanna ride my motorsyckle
Message:
Nigel:

Arlo hosted the 'Further Festival' in the summer of 1997, which headlined Black Crowes, Bob Weir, Mickey Hart, Moe, Jorma Kaukonen, Bruce Hornsby, and others. He, apparently, has escaped the Huntington's curse. I doubt, however, that he chose to have any children since he can still pass the gene.

-Scott
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:44:54 (EST)
From: Robyn
Email: sundogs@hotmail.com
To: Scott T.
Subject: Hobo's Lullaby
Message:
Dear Scott,
I saw an interview done with Arlo at his home years ago and he did have children, 2 or 3. He spoke about it to. He said he was glad his parents decided to have him, agaist the odds and that is why he chose to have children also.
Robyn
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 09:31:51 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: JW
Subject: in time of dafodils
Message:
RE: how boring it is w/out the premies

Personally I wouldn't care if I never ever ever argued with a premie about M ever ever again in this life. The subject is one that I've wasted enough time on for this lifetime. However, I don't mind discussing the experience of surrenduring this life to a cross-dresser (human - divine, not male - female) with an 8th grade education who loves expensive clothes, watches, cars, and airplanes.
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 12:15:01 (EST)
From: Selena
Email: None
To: John
Subject: in time of dafodils
Message:
Cross-dresser? Is this some gossip I haven't heard? or do you mean that weird outfit he used to dance in, what was it called?
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Date: Wed, Apr 29, 1998 at 16:10:42 (EST)
From: John
Email: None
To: Selena
Subject: guru in red
Message:
Yeah, you know, some people get their kicks dressing up like the opposite sex, and some people like to dress up as a Hindu god. I don't know the official name for the red santa claus/sergeant - pepper-uniform outfit he had. He never explained what he was actually doing when he came out dressed like that, and I honestly don't think he had any idea other than to fulfill our devotional desires. Whatever the hell devotional desires are!
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